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Nonprofit Radio for October 31, 2022: Team Care


Susan Comfort: Team Care

Susan Comfort wants you to go beyond self care, which we’ve covered over the last two weeks, to team care. Yes, take care of yourself and your friends, then look after your team. She’s founder of Nonprofit Wellness, and this was part of our coverage of the 2021 Nonprofit Technology Conference. This week’s show is intentionally short, so you can spend more time taking care of self and team.


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[00:02:08.01] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Arsene Asus if you poisoned me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, Team Care. Susan comfort wants you to go beyond self care, which we’ve covered over the last two weeks to Team Care. Yes, take care of yourself and your friends then look after your team. She’s founder of nonprofit wellness and this was part of our coverage of the 2021 nonprofit technology conference this week’s show is intentionally short so you can spend more time taking care of self and team Antonis Take two. Endowment Panel Takeaways sounds fascinating. Were sponsored by turn to communications. I just can’t wait for that. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o I can’t wait for endowment panel takeaways and by fourth dimension technologies I Tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D just like three D but they go one dimension deeper here is Team Care. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 N. T. C. You know what it is? It’s the 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot c. O with me now is Susan comfort Founder of nonprofit wellness Susan Welcome back to nonprofit radio Thanks

[00:02:10.57] spk_1:
great to be here

[00:02:11.52] spk_0:
it was roughly a year ago last aPril when 2020 20 N. T. C. Was not in person. And we talked with uh mo abdullah about coronavirus and team care.

[00:02:24.53] spk_1:
Indeed. And here we are a year later and we’re facing the same issues except worse.

[00:02:30.79] spk_0:
Yes because it’s multiplied by because we’ve been in this for over a year.

[00:02:36.05] spk_1:

[00:02:36.99] spk_0:
Okay. And so your topic is very very similar. Team care. Not self care building resiliency in an era of burnout should be resilience should have been resilience. Not resiliency

[00:02:50.69] spk_1:
building resilience building resiliency. I think they both work.

[00:03:08.64] spk_0:
You do all right. I think one works better than the other. All right. I have to I’m not I’m not strictly I’m only a curmudgeon. I’m not a grammarian or uh Entomology. I’m not an entomologist. I’m just curmudgeonly. Got it for some reason. I see. Billion resilience. Alright.

[00:03:12.81] spk_1:
Hey as long as you build it. I don’t care what you call

[00:03:22.79] spk_0:
we’ll get. We’ll be resilient. We’ll be resilient. All right. So uh yeah we need to keep taking care of ourselves and our teams through this and and beyond right Beyond the pandemic. We still gotta be thinking about Team care.

[00:03:27.81] spk_1:
Well let me ask you this. What does self care mean to you? tony

[00:03:31.34] spk_0:
I can give examples. Is that what you is that what you

[00:03:33.58] spk_1:
mean? Like it

[00:04:17.89] spk_0:
means uh not so occasional daytime naps. It means um a glass of wine. Maybe. No not every night but several nights a week. Glass of wine after work. It means ending work at a decent time even know, Well, even before the pandemic, my home has always been in my office has been my home for about 15 years, maybe 20 years. So, uh, but you know, so I don’t have trouble closing the door. So there’s that boundaries around time, in terms, in other words, um, there’s some examples. Walk on the beach. I live across the street from the beach and the ocean. So walks on the beach. Examples. And why do I think it’s important because I can’t, I can’t be good to other people if I’m not good to myself first. And I, I take that to heart. And I think I take good care. I mean I exercise, I eat right? I’m cautious about too much meat and processed foods and things, you know, so there’s a lot, there’s a lot that goes into it for me

[00:05:19.36] spk_1:
and we all have the same human body. And so we’re feeding it, we’re resting it, we’re hydrating it and we’re moving it. Those are physical kind of self care impetus is right that you just gave some great examples of, and we know that we’re in charge of self care, right? There’s nobody else in charge of our body. And we’re told that we’re in charge of self care. Hey, don’t forget to self care, take time for self care. Set your boundaries. Well, guess what in the nonprofit world. And in the education world where we’re increasingly working people aren’t so great at self care naturally on their own remind me of self care, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to do it or do it well. And

[00:05:20.01] spk_0:
particularly we’re working in our homes, it’s so easy to, to lose the boundaries between work and personal. That’s where you’re not allowed in, you’re not allowed in after six PM or you know, but, but if you’re not accustomed to that, you got thrown into it in an instant, there was no, there was no teachings going on in, in, in february and early March about how to do this. You got, you got slammed with it.

[00:07:25.73] spk_1:
And at first we saw it maybe as a benefit like, hey, no commute. But then we thought, ah, that commute was the one hour a day I had to myself or to listen to the radio or to listen to my book or to detach and create that boundary from work to home. Now. You’ve been working from home for a while, you’ve kind of gotten practice at this, but you’re right. Everyone else is kind of new to it. Not so good at it. And being told in a time of unprecedented stress and pandemic. Hey, don’t forget about self care when you know what, we probably weren’t good at it to begin with. And so that’s why, well that’s one reason why we focus on team care because we’re just not good at self care. And the second reason is especially in a world where we’re serving others were educating others were giving to others in the nonprofit world, we are usually, but it’s also because we’re in this unprecedented time, self care won’t cut it going back to the regular old normal we used to have isn’t gonna work, it wasn’t working then we weren’t caring for ourselves particularly well then. And it’s not getting any better with bad solutions on a new framework. So we have to take this new framework, a pandemic informed world and say, well, how are we going to do things differently next time when we return to the office is what’s going to be different when we return to our teams, how we’re gonna manage differently. How are we going to work from home differently? How are we going to communicate differently? All of these things are opportunities to reset our culture. So we, we coached teams, nonprofit schools, etcetera, how to take that world changing energy and reset your culture. So we’re actually turning our superpowers on each other, taking care of each other, which were really good at doing so that we can take care of ourselves better because having longevity in this career is crucial turnover is a silent epidemic facing the nonprofit and education worlds, some of its measured often it’s not, but if we don’t keep people in these jobs longer term, keep the relationships, keep the commitment, keep the knowledge, then we’re not going to do a very good job at educating Children are changing the world.

[00:07:49.90] spk_0:
All right. You have some resources for for us taking care of ourselves. You have a personal stress prescription and a stressor scorecard.

[00:07:59.84] spk_1:

[00:08:00.29] spk_0:
we can. We first of all, can listeners get these somewhere or is it something you create on your own? You don’t need a template?

[00:09:55.01] spk_1:
Well, both. You don’t need a template. We created it for you to use as a discussion tool or a self care tool, but you don’t need our form what we did and you can download it at non profit wellness dot org slash resources. What we did was put together a list of about two dozen evidence based stress relief solutions. The these are things that have been studied that are proven to both either lower your cortisol, the stress hormone is released when we’re stressed or to reset our bodily systems or to relax. S and there’s good and bad things on the list. Or quote good, quote bad, right? Like friendships you might think of as good, but some friendships are toxic right intoxication you might think of as bad. But actually you have a glass of wine some nights it’s good, you mentioned it as part of yourself care, right? But for some people it might be a challenge. Um I stopped drinking three years ago for me it was more of a challenge than a benefit. And so I cut it out because that was easiest, but everybody has to make their own decisions. Is it a glass of wine? Is it? None at all. Is that? Hey, I need to go out for happy hour more because I’m a little uptight. Like you get to make your decision on the personal stress prescription what works for you and I guarantee there’s stuff on the list. You’re already doing great, celebrate that. Do it more because that’s low barrier to entry if you’re already doing it. And then there’s stuff on that list that maybe you should pick up something new, something different, new world new strategies. And then there’s stuff on that list that you could really be doing with a team doing with somebody else and that’s going to help you actually do it have more fun, go longer. And those are the things that we need in our wellness, right? When we actually do it, when we have fun and when we go longer and harder, right? That’s what having a buddy or having a team and accountability aspect to our care. That’s what it does for us. And the research shows it. So we need team care, not self care. I mean not just self care, we need team care and self care, but we like to be a little bit polemic and say team care, not self care because we want to differentiate ourselves from everybody deciding self care, don’t forget.

[00:10:20.55] spk_0:
Alright. Alright, but we need both. Right, so these are at nonprofit wellness dot org slash resources? I did not. Now I’m bringing out my curmudgeon again that I did not, I didn’t I didn’t uh I didn’t miss that. You snuck in template, It’s template template. How do you get template Maryland? You marylanders born and raised in Maryland. I was in New Jersey weren’t that far away, but it’s template, not

[00:10:38.82] spk_1:

[00:10:44.06] spk_0:
U R M U D G E O N. Well, because I hustled you about resiliency being wrong if

[00:11:02.27] spk_1:
I want to talk real ball Marie’s I say would er and I say you can go down the ocean and you can walk on the beach all you want hon but you don’t have to invite me or you can have your own self. You want me to do a Maryland accent the whole time? tony I’ll do it. That

[00:11:03.51] spk_0:
sounds annoying. Um So yeah, I

[00:11:06.56] spk_1:
worked at a crab house five summers. I’ve got the Baltimore accent down pat.

[00:11:10.16] spk_0:
You worked at a crab house.

[00:11:12.14] spk_1:
Indeed a

[00:11:13.25] spk_0:
serving, serving.

[00:11:14.65] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Even after I was a vegetarian, I served recently killed esteemed crabs right onto your table. Dismember.

[00:11:22.07] spk_0:
Alright, so as a vegetarian, is it inappropriate for me to ask you what what what type of crab meat you believe is best for crab cakes is the lump is the jumbo lump?

[00:11:32.81] spk_1:
I’m a lacto ovo crab. Oh vegetarian so I’m authorized to speak on this matter. Of course it’s back fin

[00:11:39.37] spk_0:
back. You

[00:11:43.66] spk_1:
can put anything in the crab cake. But you want jumbo lump and very few breadcrumbs.

[00:11:45.52] spk_0:
Wait wait, wait, wait. You’re saying it’s back then and jumbo lump.

[00:11:49.37] spk_1:
Well, they’re the same thing. Jumbo lump is just the bigger chunks of back fin.

[00:11:57.51] spk_0:
Right, well, right, the lump or jumbo lump, you get a mixture back then and some lumps usually in the top of the container in the bottom of the container.

[00:12:02.47] spk_1:
If you say so, I pick my own crabs. tony If you say that’s what you get. That’s what you get. Just get the best crab meat you can buy in the biggest chunks you can. And if you’re like me, you can pick your own make your own crab suit, make your own crab cakes. Just not too much bread. Okay, it ruins the crab cake.

[00:12:26.03] spk_0:
Right? Not too much. I agree. I just made a batch with very low gluten free plank. Oh, but it was £2 of crab meat. And I think A third, maybe I guess it was 2/3 of a cup. I think of

[00:12:30.07] spk_1:
if we’re gonna be It’s Panko not plank. Oh, tony

[00:12:34.46] spk_0:
Did I say plank. Oh did I say plank.

[00:12:37.17] spk_1:
Oh, I’m

[00:12:38.66] spk_0:
gonna play this back. No, Did I say plank. Oh that’s embarrassing. I know it’s Panko.

[00:12:42.98] spk_1:
It sounded like it. You can edit that part out.

[00:13:00.00] spk_0:
Alright, I’m not gonna edit it. No, no. I called you out twice template, I’m not gonna not gonna cheat and edit out. But that’s embarrassing. I know it’s Panko. Of course, it’s Panko. Thank you for correcting me. Alright. It’s very important to know what kind of crab meat is best. All

[00:13:02.31] spk_1:

[00:13:04.65] spk_0:
So, All right. So, we take so we get these resources or we just develop our own

[00:13:09.97] spk_1:

[00:13:11.17] spk_0:
prescription and stressor. And a scorecard. Scorecard works with the prescription. Is that how they work together?

[00:14:11.59] spk_1:
Now? The scorecards under revision. So by the time your listeners here this, there might be a new one. We took the stressor. Scorecard which was based on the ace score card stands for adverse childhood experiences. And it’s actually a measure of childhood trauma. It’s quite triggering. But we took the a scorecard and we said, well, what’s the measurement of adult stress? There wasn’t one. So, we made one and we kept revising it and we’ve undergone another revision. Or instead of just ranking your stressors. And these are societal stressors, not work stressors. So, it might be identity related to who you are in society. It might be a circumstance related to what you’re facing right now in your life. So, a circumstance could be like a divorce or a food allergy that causes you stress an identity might be your gender, your race or your sexual orientation. That may or may not given where you are in society. May or may not cause you stress. So, if you know the score when you walk in the door, if you know your stress score from sin Society, then technically we should know who gets the most wellness resources. That would be wellness equity. If we knew who got the most stressed, then they would get the most wellness resources. But the way it is now is we give the corporate wellness resources because it’s a $7 billion dollar industry in the corporate workplace.

[00:14:29.40] spk_0:
But the

[00:14:48.96] spk_1:
nonprofit world and the education world don’t really get sort of wellness benefits or like extra help. Yet I would say that we are probably among the most stressed in society. Not only do we face a lot of stressors because of who we are and what we face in our lower incomes, but also we have really stressful jobs that are, that depend on us to literally change the world or change people’s minds and that is not the same as a bank job. Sorry. It’s just not. So we have more stress and we should get more resources than we do.

[00:16:16.89] spk_0:
We should get more resources than we do right? We, we definitely should. Yes. And at least as much as if you’re gonna write, if you’re gonna do it equitably at least as much as you see in the, in the corporate side, it’s time for a break turn to communications, the relationships, the media relationships that you want to have so that you can be heard when you need to be heard when the news merits attention on your work, your opinion of what’s happened. You need the relationships turn to can help you build them. They are themselves former journalists. So they have built relationships on the journalist’s side so they know how to do it and they know what not to do so that you don’t defeat your attempt at creating these these donor relationships. These media relationships right turn to can help you build up the relationships. So when you need to be heard you can be turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to team care. Work

[00:17:12.30] spk_1:
hard. I didn’t go into those which is under revision is the strength the growth and the joy that we achieve from these identities and circumstances. So we actually put two scores on the new one where you can rank your stress but you can also rank your growth and joy. So for example, I’m a woman and I identify as queer being a woman and a white woman at that in society has not caused me a lot of stress but I would say some maybe a low amount of stress being queer in society has not caused me very much stress. But when I look at both of those and I think of how much growth enjoy being a woman has brought me and how much growth enjoy being bisexual has brought me as a part of the queer community that’s off the charts. I I rank much higher my growth and joy than I do my stress. And so in that way I go, hey, what a bonus that I have had this stress in my life. What an opportunity for growth and joy that this stressful thing brought me. And that puts it in a whole new frame for me I think, yeah, I face a lot of stress in my job and in my life. But look at how much I’ve grown and how much joy I get out of life. And so that’s our stressor, Scorecard revision. It’s now called the stressor and resilience scorecard because again, building resilience or resiliency is super important in a time of constant change and stress,

[00:17:47.69] spk_0:
Thank you for saying resilience first and then or or resiliency as the second alternative. Alright, so how do we then bring, I’m relentless If nothing else, I don’t let go. So how do we bring this now to a team level because it’s his team care and not self care. I’ve been wagging my finger, listeners can’t see, but I’m telling you, I’m wagging my finger. We’re distinguishing ourselves from all the all the nannies who say take care of yourself, how we convey this now to team care.

[00:18:31.65] spk_1:
Well, I’m glad your listeners can’t see us because there’s nothing better than nonprofit types wagging their fingers at other people telling them what they should do, right? Um it’s tony It’s really simple. All we have to do is talk about it. So bring a brown has many best selling books about vulnerability and shame and courage and she opines I mean the research show shows that when you are vulnerable, you inspire empathy and it’s really the height of courageousness to be vulnerable, it’s not opposites, they’re two sides of the same.

[00:18:39.93] spk_0:

[00:20:15.22] spk_1:
yeah. And so if you tony are a vulnerable leader and you’re courageous enough to say, hey, I’ve been struggling with my physical health in this way. So I’m going to take walks on the beach every morning and I’m going to have a glass of wine every night because that’s my plan for self care and I want you all to support me in that by not scheduling meetings during my walk time and not making fun of my wine selection or whatever it is, right? But by talking about it, people go, oh, tony is being vulnerable with me. That means I can be a little vulnerable with him and say, well, tony I’m struggling with some things in my physical health and I would like your support on this. Whatever it is, it doesn’t mean somebody has to go on the beach with you. It just means that they have to support and know that that’s something that you need for your mental or physical health. And when we talk about ourselves, we, we become a little vulnerable, but we keep ourselves safe usually. And then other people have empathy for us because we made ourselves vulnerable and that builds trust and trust is the elusive element that so many teams are missing. And so if wellness can be kind of a shortcut to that great, But it just means we have to talk about it. That’s why we create discussion tools. We want you to be able to talk about this with your team openly vulnerably and honestly, but also like have, you know, have something to get out of it. Maybe you all could support a new direction with your team care based on your discussions. Maybe instead of, you know, pastries in the kitchen, you’re gonna have nuts in the kitchen because it’s healthy or maybe you’re gonna go for group walks or, you know, measure your steps together. Those are all physical things. But where we really get into the interesting stuff is when we talk about mental health things, which is a little less accepted at work. But that’s the most important thing of of what we’re doing

[00:20:33.61] spk_0:
okay before we get to mental health? Let’s let’s keep a little simpler. A little safer. How do we just Open these conversations just like are we are we having a meeting for this purpose or is this 10 minutes? Uh, at the beginning of a one hour meeting all

[00:22:18.09] spk_1:
of the above. So, you know, if you have a meeting about it, then that sounds like a wellness committee and that would be great because a wellness committee could definitely, you know, be a diverse group of voices that pushes the agenda forward rather than like one yoga nut in the office, which is who I used to be, right. But if you don’t have time for a wellness committee or you’re not ready for a wellness committee yet. No problem. Just at the beginning of every meeting, maybe you ask a checking question that has to do with health. So like what did you do already today to support your mental or physical health? That’s a quick check in question. And people will think about, what did I do today? What does walking my dog count? Maybe walking my dog counts as physical and mental health. Yeah. Walking my dog. I’m gonna walk my dog more because that’s really good for health, right? It makes them think about things in a different way and it makes them share. Maybe people didn’t know you had a dog. Maybe somebody would like to go for a dog walk with you. Maybe somebody, you know, would like to bring their dog into the office and they know that since you have a dog, you’re going to be more open. And I mean there’s many directions these conversations can go, but you just have to open it up. So it’s usually like a checking question or maybe a lunch and learn or a brown bag lunch where everybody could talk about these things, but I would say set and set a topic. Um maybe it’s nutrition. Maybe it’s some specific aspect of nutrition. Maybe it’s movement. You know, these are things that are safe and yet they affect our mental health. So if we start talking about physical things that affect our physical health, then we’re going to start to get into, well, you know what, when I take, when I exercise, I feel happier. Well, that’s mental health. And so you’re gonna start talking about mental health, even though you’re talking about how you’re feeding, moving and resting your body, which is physical.

[00:22:29.57] spk_0:
Mm Okay, by the way, if you were the yoga nut, then I guess you would have been pushing up against me the curmudgeon if we would have been in the same workplace.

[00:22:39.23] spk_1:

[00:23:13.65] spk_0:
I’m not, you know, this is a recent, a recent um, revelation for me that I’m a little curmudgeonly. I see it in my neighborhood. Like, you know, my, my neighbor across the street has has a big piece of construction waste in a role that that, that the garbage people are not gonna pick up because it’s been there for over a week. You have to put your garbage in a can. It’s gotta be, it’s gotta be an authorized can with wheels and it’s got to face the right way, but they’re not gonna pick up this guy’s big tarp, but he leaves it out there, you know, that that bothers me looking at it right now. It’s annoying. It

[00:23:15.46] spk_1:
sounds like it causes stress. Well

[00:23:17.71] spk_0:
it shouldn’t be there. It’s not part of it is the injustice of it because he knows it’s not gonna get picked up. It’s been there over a week and we have garbage pickups every monday and friday. So it’s not going if it didn’t go the first day, it’s not going the next or the next after after that. So it’s the injustice of it. I I follow the rules he should do.

[00:23:36.19] spk_1:
I think neighborhood,

[00:23:54.70] spk_0:
neighborhood beautification, you know, put that tarp out there on a big role, may be the next neighbor will put a little load of concrete after he after he takes his grill out of the concrete slab that has been in and he leaves a little two ft chunk pile of broken concrete there

[00:23:56.26] spk_1:
goes the neighborhood

[00:23:57.32] spk_0:
liberties and then the next and the next next thing I have to sell my home

[00:24:13.58] spk_1:
that would be terrible. Hey, get a big piece of chalk and create some sort of art out of that rolled up tarp. Maybe it’s a caterpillar, maybe you write a note on the street in chalk like I don’t know, I can’t think of a

[00:24:16.68] spk_0:

[00:24:17.43] spk_1:
that would be curmudgeonly. You

[00:24:18.68] spk_0:
want that kind of

[00:24:25.57] spk_1:
hilarious. You used to be a comedian. Be hilarious. tony something funny, make them laugh, you

[00:24:57.43] spk_0:
know what I was laughing about recently. I learned. David Sedaris has a home in my town and a lot of people in town have pretentious names on their homes. Like when I moved here it was seven seas. I had that the first thing I had a contractor to rip that stupid seven seat. First of all, it’s the atlantic ocean, it’s not a C. So it’s misnamed and second of all these names are pretentious David Sedaris has his house name is C Section. How good is that? How brilliant is that? Go right to the heart of the pretense. And I, so if I had thought of C section, I would have had a contract and make those letters but he took that one. But yeah, you’re right. I could put something in chalk. I have chalk too because I have uh

[00:25:14.12] spk_1:
Laughter out loud is one of our top 12 immune boosters. We

[00:25:19.16] spk_0:

[00:25:38.70] spk_1:
topic because laughter laughing out loud actually is one of the 12 immune boosters that are masters of public health interns research to find the cheap easy, Absolutely. Scientific based immune boosters and laughing out loud is at the top of the list. So you will boost your immune system and everybody on the street if you can figure out something funny to do with that rolled up tarp, I will follow up with you tony to figure out what it

[00:25:47.00] spk_0:
was. Okay, the caterpillar is a good idea. I’ll keep, I could make it a big turd but that’s kind of

[00:25:54.04] spk_1:

[00:25:55.24] spk_0:
you know like

[00:25:56.21] spk_1:
dinosaur turd, you know like make up north Carolina dinosaur breed and say like this is the ancient, you know,

[00:26:03.79] spk_0:
it’s a fossilized brontosaurus turd.

[00:26:06.87] spk_1:

[00:26:08.24] spk_0:

[00:26:09.41] spk_1:
getting there. You’re getting there.

[00:26:10.45] spk_0:
I’m amusing myself not. You know, I’m sorry. But that’s the wellness. Alright.

[00:26:15.17] spk_1:
Just did it did it for yourself. Right then. It makes you laugh rather than making you stressed out.

[00:26:20.09] spk_0:
Okay. But I’d like something for the community to be able to chuckle at two.

[00:26:23.98] spk_1:

[00:26:24.43] spk_0:
All right, this is not

[00:26:27.35] spk_1:
or anything but your tony-martignetti and that’s not

[00:26:48.79] spk_0:
right. Okay. I write I know my place. I know my place. All right. So this has turned into an individual mental health exercise which is not supposed to be so But this curmudgeon thing is just evolving in my mind about how I’m you know, traditions, there’s importance around laws and tradition and you know, so human. I might have clashed. Uh But I wasn’t curmudgeonly when we would have been in the same workplace. This is only within the past few weeks. I’ve come to this revelation

[00:26:57.95] spk_1:
blame it on the pandemic. That’s what we’re all doing

[00:27:01.28] spk_0:

[00:27:02.07] spk_1:
bad personality traits on your lifetime

[00:27:05.77] spk_0:
practice. It’s a lifetime practice, right? It is

[00:27:09.41] spk_1:

[00:29:41.20] spk_0:
So, you know in this phase I have curmudgeonly maybe in six months or six years. I’ll be out of it. It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. I. T. Infra in a box. It’s the I. T. Buffet. You go through the line. you take what looks appealing to you what fits within your budget, what fits within where you are technology wise like help desk security assessment, planned planning and budgeting, moving to the cloud and there is more on the buffet line. You choose what works for your nonprofit, leave the rest behind. You needn’t buy it, you needn’t pay for it. That’s for D’s I. T. Infra in a box. Fourth dimension technologies tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant as you know It’s time for Tony to take two. The long awaited endowment panel takeaways. Yes I was part of an endowment panel about a month ago or so graciously hosted by an ex unite uh part of nexus marketing. And this panel was called endowment excitement, fundraising and management. I was the fundraising part. And the other three folks were the management part. Either the fundraising part is very shallow because only 1 to 3 ratio or it takes three of them to equal the uh prowess of the fundraising Panelist. Well I’ll leave that to you for you to decide. And the way you can decide is to read the takeaways that I have on the blog. The panel takeaways you will find at plant giving accelerator dot com plan Giving accelerator dot com And you click blog and the takeaways are right there That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got just about a butt load more time for team care with Susan comfort because this week’s show is shorter so that you can do the care that Susan is talking about, you have some skills like you your your workshop identified but you have some like skills we can practice. Yes, you’re stressed for our teams and ourselves. Yes,

[00:29:51.99] spk_1:
I think this is a really good one. This is a really good one. Okay, so what I want you to do is look out the window and anyone listening, just look out the window right now, Tony is going to be looking at a giant tyrannosaurus turd across the

[00:30:01.49] spk_0:

[00:30:02.98] spk_1:
And uh you want to name five things you see out the window besides the brontosaurus turd, tony go

[00:30:17.91] spk_0:
the ocean, the walkway, the the little wooden walkway to the ocean. My neighbor’s homes who I don’t know too well I’m a little curmudgeonly and there’s my, my front yard landscaping which I’m very proud of.

[00:30:26.27] spk_1:
Excellent. What’s one of the parts of the landscaping? That’s number five.

[00:30:31.73] spk_0:
Oh the mexican petunias, They’re just starting to bloom

[00:30:34.90] spk_1:

[00:30:35.70] spk_0:
Well grow, they’re not blooming yet but they’re growing out of the ground green.

[00:31:08.58] spk_1:
You can see that their roots have taken hold. So that’s, that’s part of a mindfulness exercise where you name five things, you can see four things you can touch three things you can hear two things you can smell and one thing you can taste and it’s a, it’s an anxiety arresting exercise where if you’re feeling anxious, you’re worried about stuff you’re thinking into the future. You’re worried about the past. You come back to the present moment and how do you do that? Five things you see four things you can touch name them. Touch them. See them, say it out loud. That will bring you back to the present moment forces you because you’re engaging all five of your senses.

[00:31:21.19] spk_0:

[00:32:15.28] spk_1:
And that’s the best thing we can do for our mental health is be mindful. The second best thing is to move our bodies because moving our bodies trains our brain and so being mindful, being more mindful, being better mindful. These are all things we can do are things we can all do, being more movement, having better movement. Being movement oriented. These are things we can all do no matter how much we move, no matter how much we’re meditating or mindful. But mindfulness is just being aware of the present moment, but it takes us out of that worrying cycle, it takes us out of that rumination, prefrontal cortex and actually forces us to be in the present moment, which is a huge skill. I practice it every day for seconds per day. I’m I’m aspiring to get up two minutes. You know, just being mindful, Being present. That is a huge skill that I have been practicing a ton and that is a relief that I don’t have to become a meditator. I can just be a mindful person. What a relief. I don’t have to sit and meditate. I can just be mindful.

[00:32:24.14] spk_0:
Would you count down the five again please. Five things. You can

[00:32:27.19] spk_1:
see more things.

[00:32:30.60] spk_0:
You can touch, three

[00:32:35.80] spk_1:
things you can hear. Two things you can smell and one thing you can taste.

[00:32:40.65] spk_0:

[00:32:42.18] spk_1:

[00:32:42.58] spk_0:

[00:32:44.90] spk_1:
just start in the moment like, oh I have a, you know old coffee taste in my

[00:32:50.77] spk_0:
mouth. It’s

[00:32:51.76] spk_1:
just that moment. That’s what I’m experiencing in this moment right now, you know?

[00:32:56.86] spk_0:

[00:33:12.79] spk_1:
So the skill that I would ask everyone to practice is just being present, just taking a present mindful breath several times a day. We take 20,000 breaths in a day. So try and make like three of the mindful ones, maybe 10. You know those are skills we can always practice and always improve and they’re actually good for your brain. It’s not just like woo, yoga teacher stuff.

[00:33:21.51] spk_0:
I like being mindful around food that I’m actually tasting it. I’m enjoying the texture smell. I like to I can smell the food before I taste it so that I get an extra sense of taste because the the aromas wafting over my palate.

[00:33:39.45] spk_1:
Yeah, like food. Like I’m going to have some sort of chickpea thing for dinner and I’m anticipating those chickpeas, you can cook the food mindfully and like be in the moment while you’re cooking and appreciating those textures before they get soft in the oven or you know, just all of the moments of food. It’s not just smelling it and eating it. It’s the anticipation, the preparation, the cleaning up the discussion about it, the laughs that you had over the meal. Like if you could be present for all of that, amazing.

[00:34:10.57] spk_0:
If we spend a little more time, I’ll give you your own your own show on non profit radio you don’t have to be. We’ve already been like a half an hour because I went on a diatribe about homogeneous and third and we turned it into a personal thing for me. Well, I’m the center of the universe. So I think that’s appropriate. We

[00:34:27.41] spk_1:
all are the center of the universe. In fact, we all are of our own little universe. Amazing.

[00:34:34.31] spk_0:
Oh, so that’s not so that’s not.

[00:34:38.97] spk_1:
But that’s why people love talking about themselves because they’re the center of the universe. And if you ask me a question of myself about myself. Well, thank God, somebody noticed that I’m the center of the universe. I would love to tell you about my food or my exercise or when I am most present. Yes, I would like to tell you about that because I love talking about myself. We all love talking about ourselves in some way.

[00:34:59.04] spk_0:
We do some, some of us more than others,

[00:35:01.26] spk_1:
some more than others. You know, you could just go on clubhouse and do your show their tony Have you thought about that,

[00:35:06.57] spk_0:
know what is clubhouse?

[00:35:08.70] spk_1:
Well, that’s a that’s a topic for another day. It’s an infant only iphone only app that is sort of taking over the social media world.

[00:35:30.37] spk_0:
We live obviously dated myself. I’m 59, so I’m not hiding. So I’m not familiar with clubhouse. Um, let’s see. Well, Alright, where can we spend a little more time? Susan comfort. Um, I don’t know. You tell me you’re the, you’re the person who thinks about this all the time. I only,

[00:35:35.50] spk_1:
I think everybody should stop listening and go outside and take a walk there listening while at

[00:35:41.30] spk_0:
the end of it. Don’t stop now. Keep listening until the end.

[00:35:44.53] spk_1:
No, you should stop. Stop now. There’s nothing of value coming later. Stop now. Turn it off. They won’t really tell me

[00:35:51.26] spk_0:
you’re killing my show. They’re not going to

[00:35:53.46] spk_1:
turn it off. They’re addicted to you.

[00:35:56.81] spk_0:

[00:35:57.00] spk_1:
can’t wait to see what curmudgeonly thing you’re gonna say next.

[00:36:01.61] spk_0:
Alright, so what do you want people to do? Stop,

[00:36:13.42] spk_1:
I want, I want to stop the interview. I want people to go actually take care of themselves, but in a team because that’s what I’m talking about? Team care, not health care. No, we usually end our trainings 10 minutes before the hour because we don’t want people to be back to back to back with meetings all day because then guess what? You don’t have any time to take care of yourself? So if anybody ever asks me if they like, do I have any other questions or what else should we do? I say we should stop doing this thing and go take care of ourselves. Go outside and take a walk on the beach. tony

[00:36:35.98] spk_0:
Okay, I’m gonna end the show which you so put together with the little sponsor message I have to put in and my tony take two and a blah blah blah. This is gonna be about a 36 or 37 minute show and usually they’re more like 45

[00:36:52.88] spk_1:

[00:36:55.62] spk_0:
five. I’m cutting myself short. No, they’re more like 50 to 50 to 60 minutes is 5050 50

[00:37:00.94] spk_1:
I have to say I can talk about this stuff for hours.

[00:37:04.31] spk_0:
No, no, no, we’re taking your advice now.

[00:37:15.97] spk_1:
No, I’m just saying have me back people can go listen to me on youtube, whatever, but you don’t need me. People need to go take care of themselves tony you’re keeping them from it. You

[00:37:17.91] spk_0:
were just teasing You were just teasing saying I can talk about this forever. I’m saying no,

[00:37:22.30] spk_1:
he said shut

[00:37:22.83] spk_0:
it off. So we’re shutting it off. Alright, we’re building this show around your advice. Alright, great. Susan comfort. Your pronouns, what are your pronouns

[00:37:33.64] spk_1:
she her and

[00:37:46.22] spk_0:
next time. Okay, I understood some of that. Susan comfort founder. non profit wellness, you can get the resources that you talked about the personal stress prescription and the new updated stressor and something else? Scorecard,

[00:37:57.54] spk_1:

[00:38:00.66] spk_0:
stressor and resilience not resiliency score card at nonprofit wellness dot org slash resources. All right, Susan, thank you very

[00:38:08.42] spk_1:
much. Hope to talk to you soon again on the beach.

[00:39:13.61] spk_0:
I’m sure you will. I’m sure you will. Thank you. And thanks to each of you for listening to nonprofit radio coverage of 21 NTC, the 2021 nonprofit technology conference next week. It will not be a replay of the fermentation show. I give you my word if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com Were sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies i. Tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But you know, they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and his music is by scott stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for October 10, 2022: The Smart Nonprofit


Beth Kanter & Allison Fine: The Smart Nonprofit

That’s Beth Kanter and Allison Fine’s new book, revealing the potential of smart technology and artificial intelligence for your nonprofit, and the entire sector. Beth and Allison are with us to share their thinking.





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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:44.94] spk_0:
Oh, I neglected to mention, you hear me, you hear me do an intro to the show and then we’ll chat uninterrupted and then I’ll do the outro and then I could say goodbye Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of infra occlusion if you made me chew on the idea that you missed this week’s show. The smart non profit That’s Beth Canter and Alison finds new book revealing the potential of smart technology and artificial intelligence for your nonprofit and the entire sector.

[00:00:56.53] spk_1:

[00:00:56.87] spk_0:
and Allison are with us to share their

[00:00:58.74] spk_1:

[00:01:28.01] spk_0:
on Tony’s take to debunk those top five myths of planned giving, sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[00:01:32.30] spk_1:

[00:01:32.54] spk_0:
a pleasure to welcome

[00:01:33.29] spk_1:

[00:01:41.59] spk_0:
Beth Kanter and Allison Fine to the show. Both been on multiple times, although you know them uh they they they each deserve their own special

[00:01:47.79] spk_1:

[00:01:49.33] spk_0:
Beth Kanter is an internationally recognized thought leader and trainer in digital transformation and well being in the nonprofit

[00:01:56.46] spk_1:

[00:01:57.94] spk_0:
She was named one of the most influential women in technology by fast company and received the N 10 Lifetime achievement

[00:02:04.82] spk_1:

[00:02:05.48] spk_0:
She’s at Beth Kanter and

[00:02:08.97] spk_1:

[00:02:30.78] spk_0:
Kanter dot org. Alison Fine is among the nation’s preeminent writers and strategists on the use of technology for social good. She’s a member of the National Board of Women of Reform Judaism and was chair of the National Board of Naral Pro Choice America Foundation and a founding board member of Civic Hall. Allison is at a Fine and Alison Fine dot

[00:02:34.94] spk_1:

[00:02:36.18] spk_0:
Bethan Alison welcome back to nonprofit radio

[00:02:40.69] spk_1:
Thank you for having us. tony

[00:02:43.75] spk_0:
congratulations on the book.

[00:02:47.60] spk_1:
It’s very exciting. The response has been tremendous so far.

[00:02:52.45] spk_2:
So both of our 4th book and 2nd collaboration together.

[00:02:56.91] spk_1:

[00:03:20.05] spk_0:
yes, you’ve co authored the network non profit if I’m not mistaken. Alright and fourth book for both of you. Congratulations all around. I would actually like to start with the last sentence of the book. If every nonprofit in the sector can transform itself into a smart non profit we can transform the world end quote. Uh does anybody want to claim authorship of that particular sentence? Is it possible for co authors to remember who wrote each each sentence throughout the

[00:03:28.19] spk_1:

[00:03:29.76] spk_0:
Not, no,

[00:03:31.30] spk_1:
not possible, but so

[00:03:33.14] spk_0:
then All right, Allison, what what uh what does it take to become this uh ideal. Smart non profit

[00:04:33.67] spk_1:
So a smart non profit tony is an organization that understands deeply how to stay human centered and by that we mean putting people first, internally and externally using the most advanced technology organizations have ever had at their disposal. This this, you know um family of technologies like ai machine learning robots and so on and by doing that tony we can stop the incredible hamster wheel of business frantic business of organizations just playing a daily game of whack a mole with email and telephone and ongoing meetings. All of that road work can be done by the technology, freeing up people to build relationships and tell stories and build communities and solve problems and do the deeply human work that most of us came to the sector to do in the first place.

[00:04:45.71] spk_0:
And you you used the word business that was not business, that was business

[00:04:52.15] spk_1:
in the U.

[00:05:08.43] spk_0:
S. Y. Yes. Okay. Um Alright. So there are many uh considerations for becoming a smart nonprofit and some some important roles of leadership that that come out in the book. Um Beth anything you would like to add to the to the intro to our conversation.

[00:05:25.86] spk_2:
Um Sure. What Allison laid out so beautifully is the key benefit of that nonprofits get from embracing this technology and that is the dividend of time and that time can be reinvested either in building better relationships with donors or or clients or stakeholders or also could be reinvested in the staff to free up time. So we’re not. So as you said, the busy work takes up a lot of time but it also takes up a lot of cognitive overload and maybe if we had more spaciousness we would be less exhausted. Um and and more inspired and less burnout.

[00:06:15.66] spk_0:
Yeah the that that dividend of time is throughout the book. And uh well except that hypothesis for now I have I have I have some questions about that, some little skepticism about that, but for now we’ll accept that the dividend of time will indeed accrue to people who work in in in smart nonprofits and to to the to the organization generally. Um Are

[00:06:18.75] spk_1:
you skeptical that it can be created or are you skeptical that people will know what to do with it once they created it? No,

[00:06:27.95] spk_0:
well I don’t wanna I don’t I don’t want to challenge right off the bat but

[00:06:33.36] spk_1:

[00:06:52.52] spk_0:
skepticism that that it that it can be realized. Not not that people will know what to do if it does get realized, but um yeah well let’s come back to it, let’s leave the hypothesis uh as as as perfectly fair and and uh something to truly aspire to because there are as you say, and as you lay out mostly in the last chapter, um there are great places that the sector can go when we realize this uh this dividend of time. Um

[00:07:10.37] spk_1:

[00:07:19.93] spk_0:
talk a little about, you know, some of these elements of being a smart non profit Um beth let’s stay with you for you know, human centered. What what do you what do you all mean by by that?

[00:08:00.23] spk_2:
Well I guess we use another term in the book um called co batting and really with that I like that because it’s like figuring out what the machines can do best. Right that the automation technology there’s certain tasks that the technology is really good at doing. And those are things like analyzing large amounts of data and automating kind of rote tasks. But there are there’s stuff in our jobs that humans should do and always do. And that is the relationship building, taking the donors out to lunch. Like you were telling us you took a donor out to a nice restaurant recently. You know that’s not something the automation is going to do for you. Um and being creative having empathy, making intuitive decisions. And so when we use this technology leaders really need to understand like what is the right workflow and always keep humans in

[00:08:19.06] spk_1:

[00:08:21.28] spk_0:
What what’s the what’s the

[00:08:25.05] spk_1:

[00:08:25.33] spk_0:
can we how can we make sure that we center humans in in adopting this this smart technology?

[00:09:29.83] spk_2:
Well I think the first step is to ask to talk to them and get their feedback and their input in before you even like grab the software off the shop? It’s not about that at all. Um you really have to start with. Um you know, what are the points of pain? What are the exquisite pain points that we want to address by adopting this technology and getting feedback from the end user’s whether that staff clients donors and then, um, setting up a, you know, an understanding of what the journey is, what the workflow is and where you divide things. And then you begin to go look at software tools and uh, and and find vendors that are aligned with your values and once you’ve, or technologists that are aligned with your values and then once you’ve done that, you can begin to start with pilots and uh, an iteration on it before you get to scale. This is so different tony than social media, which both Allison and I have talked to about where we’re encouraging people to just jump in experiment fail fast. What we’re saying with this technology is that it’s really important to, um, to go slowly and to be knowledgeable and reflective about it.

[00:09:53.74] spk_0:
And reflective. Yes, reflective is, uh, something else I wanted to ask about. So what you read my mind fantastic being reflective Alison, what is why, what’s that attribute about for the, for the smart non profit

[00:11:37.25] spk_1:
So this is, um, something I’m deeply passionate about tony Um, I don’t know if, you know, I had a first career as a program evaluator and uh, it’s very, very difficult to get, particularly smaller nonprofits who are so busy and so under resourced to take a step back and not only think about how is what they’re doing, Getting them closer to the results that they want to do, but how can they improve over time and we need them to understand not only the human centeredness that beth just spot on, you know, outlined, but in particular tony how are we making people feel internally and externally about our efforts? Are we making people feel seen and known and heard or and this is particularly important when we talk about smart tech, do you feel like a data point, just you know, a cog in large machinery? Um that’s just getting lost um and we know that feels terrible, everybody has experiences of feeling being made to feel small by organizations and nothing is more important in our work, particularly in the social service and human service areas of making people feel known and heard and yet it is just the sticking point for the sector that it is the thing that gets left off and again we’re back to the business of work, so we want people to be reflective of. Is this the right technology, are you solving that exquisite pain point that you had? How are you making people feel when machines are now doing what only people could do until just a few years ago, you know, through smart tack and is it solving the problems that you set out to solve?

[00:12:00.50] spk_0:
Uh Yeah, I I admired that idea of, of reflective because you know, it’s it’s closely related as you said to being human centered uh you know, thoughtfulness um and it goes to like preparation to um it

[00:12:23.51] spk_1:
also goes to leadership right? You have to have a leadership within an organization that isn’t so brittle that they are open to learning about how to improve and there are too many organizations that are so fearful of being seen as not doing something well that they won’t openly and wholeheartedly be reflective about their activities.

[00:12:42.57] spk_2:
And it’s also about the culture too, and we’ve used this word a lot dizziness and when we have a culture of business and people are multitasking and there’s back to back meetings. They don’t have that space to be reflective. So um and and that’s so required to um to make the changes that you just read about the last line of our book, you know, to get to that place

[00:13:23.79] spk_0:
and we’re gonna talk some about the leadership. Uh you talk about being trustworthy and empathetic, we’ll we’ll we’ll get there. Um Another, another attribute you you mentioned um beth is being knowledgeable, knowledgeable about the tech and I think it’s limits too. But what would you you say it you’ll say it more eloquently than I will.

[00:13:33.54] spk_1:

[00:13:33.74] spk_2:
think we can both say that both Alice and I can say both eloquently, but I’ll kick off with um when we say knowledgeable and we’re and we’re saying this to leaders, we’re not saying that you need to know how to code. Um you know, roll up your sleeves and write the code but you need to understand um

[00:13:51.97] spk_1:
what goes

[00:13:57.94] spk_2:
into the code and whether it’s biased um the data sets it’s been trained on and you need most of the time. A lot of leaders in the nonprofit sector when it comes to technology it’s kind of push back, you know sent down the hall to the I. T. Department and we’re really asking leaders to lead in because there’s you know potential challenges which Allison is really great at explaining.

[00:14:16.56] spk_1:

[00:14:18.19] spk_0:
well Alison explain those but then maybe you can tell us a story too about

[00:14:22.12] spk_1:

[00:14:22.80] spk_0:
about like the degree to which a leader needs to be knowledgeable.

[00:15:38.16] spk_1:
Uh So we’re talking about um this family of technologies tony that is very quickly becoming embedded in every single part of organizational life. Right? This is not a you know fundraising software, smart tech is going to be embedded in the finances and the back office and the coms and development and everything. And the idea of having machines automatically paid for things or screen resumes or screen people for services is a fundamental shift in who is doing work and how it’s being done. Right? So when you understand that premise, you have to have the C suite leaning into this to underst and what it means when your staff is doing different things than they used to do and when people on the outside are engaging with machines instead of people, these are fundamental shifts. So one area. Um Well too I just mentioned that are so important is if you are automating the screening of resumes, then the assumptions that some programmer put into that system and the resumes that were used to test it for looking for certain kinds of employees with certain kinds of skills are going to be biased. I can tell you that right now, right. They are going to have a bias. And largely that bias is going to be against, you know, people who are black and brown or or women.

[00:15:57.35] spk_0:
It’s gonna be in favor of white men.

[00:16:40.39] spk_1:
Exactly. Because that is what employment looks like. Those are the questions we use those are the expectations that we have and the programming was done most likely by a white man. Um So if you don’t know what to ask. The creator of that software that you’ve just bought that is going to quote save you a ton of time looking at resumes. Um but also screen out um people of color and women then you’ve just an incredible disservice to your organization and the same if you are providing housing services or food services to people in need, the same kinds of biases are going to be found in these systems, right? This is a systems problem. And that’s why as Beth was saying, this is not a technical problem. This is not something where you say go I. T. Guys go find us a good product. You know, they’re not looking out for your organization’s interest in equity. That’s what leadership is for right, setting those moral standards, setting that compass and making sure that your values are aligned in everything you do and how you do it as an organization.

[00:17:59.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You both are very clear in the book that this is a leadership issue, not a technology issue. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They have another interesting newsletter this week advocating for the use of cliches. Their argument is that cliches shouldn’t be ruled out entirely but used judiciously. Like not don’t go overboard either. Whatever you think about cliches, my point is they’re thinking about them. They’re thinking about how best to communicate your story because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to the Smart non profit any any stories, can we can we tell a story at this point? Alison

[00:18:23.00] spk_1:
sure there are, there are social services agencies around the country um that we’re using smart tech systems to provide um food assistance. And only after the system had been in place for several years. tony did they find out that it was literally leaving out black people from the system. In the opening chapter of our book, we talked about a screening tool called V. I. Speed at uh

[00:18:39.80] spk_0:
three times.

[00:18:40.55] spk_1:

[00:18:42.50] spk_0:
just kept saying it. V. I. S. P. D. D. Yeah.

[00:18:50.81] spk_1:
Yeah the I stood at that was programmed by um why white man with very good intentions that unintentionally was leaving black people out of getting priority housing in hundreds of communities around the world, four years before the social workers finally got heard saying, we know this tool doesn’t work on the ground, we’re using. It, it is not screening people correctly because the questions were biased against people of color who have so much trouble getting into public systems.

[00:19:32.89] spk_0:
You you have three caveats sort of that that you uh you make very clear and bias is one of them. So we’re just talking about that um responsible use is another another of the three beth can you can you talk to uh what you’re thinking about responsible use and sort of thinking through problems?

[00:19:59.01] spk_2:
Um Sure. Uh it’s kind of like taking a Hippocratic oath that you will do no harm. Right? So the example that Alison just laid out, obviously there was harm done by keeping people screening people out for important services. Um so so it it who’s um non profits to do uh something that we call threat modeling? I know it’s a big scary term and word and it comes from the internet cybersecurity but

[00:20:11.51] spk_0:
didn’t frighten me.

[00:20:17.94] spk_2:
Okay, well it might frighten some people we have had that reaction, um but it’s just basically

[00:20:19.33] spk_0:
not profit radio It’s very savvy listeners here.

[00:20:21.72] spk_2:

[00:20:23.24] spk_0:
this is this is a higher echelon audience than you’re

[00:20:25.77] spk_2:
right, of course, your

[00:20:26.90] spk_0:
other podcast. So please

[00:20:28.49] spk_2:

[00:20:29.80] spk_0:
modeling is not intimidating to us.

[00:20:31.51] spk_2:
Okay, so threat modeling is actually having a brainstorm of all the possible things that could go

[00:20:36.33] spk_1:

[00:20:42.33] spk_2:
Um if you uh implement this technology um what what harm could be done to the end user um if they if they were given um let’s say you have a buy right? And in fact the Trevor project is an example of an organization that did this threat modeling. They wanted to they had a problem. Um they had, you’re familiar with the Trevor project,

[00:21:02.88] spk_0:
explain, explain what what

[00:21:04.80] spk_2:
okay, so they provide uh

[00:21:07.10] spk_0:

[00:21:23.42] spk_2:
to yes to L. B. G. T. Q. Youth, you know through text and online phone, if you will. And so they’re dealing with kids who are in crisis and a whole, you know, um continuum of issues and they have councilors that there who are volunteers but they’re trained in this very specific, very sensitive type of counseling, especially when young people are coming to them in crisis. And so um so the problem was, you know, they needed to scale um and get more counselors in there so they could help more clients. And so they decided that they wanted to use a bot,

[00:21:44.37] spk_1:

[00:22:33.01] spk_2:
is, you know, automated response. We’re all familiar with thoughts, you know, buy a pair of sneakers online or trying to make a doctor’s appointment and you encounter a bot. And so rather than replace the counselors on the front line with this technology that won’t be human center, it could be potentially dangerous. Um especially with a sophisticated self learning bot, which could learn through, you know, and learn through interactions and say the wrong things and that could be devastating to an end user who’s in crisis. But what they decided to do was to use the bot for training simulations. So they took data from real conversation, stripping all privacy information and they use this to train their bot, which was a highly sophisticated software that was self learning. But they said that this spot will not be on the front lines with anybody, will only interact with um for training simulations. So what this did was free up a lot of time from the staff in terms of delivering trainings to more quality control. So they were able to get more counselors on the front

[00:22:51.82] spk_1:
line, so

[00:23:01.15] spk_2:
it’s an example of being human centered, but it’s also an example of that dividend of time and and repurposing it um and also uh making sure, you know, so it’s doing no harm. Yeah,

[00:23:15.16] spk_0:
and that and that responsible use. Okay, okay. Um the other the other caveat you have, so you have, you have three caveats bias, responsible use and privacy. Talking about ethical standards who’s uh, who’s who’s most interested in talking about privacy Allison Fine, raised their hand first.

[00:25:08.25] spk_1:
Yes, I did. Um so this is not a new issue, right, We’ve been dealing with digital privacy um for a long time, but as a sector haven’t really ever gotten our arms around it. tony right in that we has a sector have just subscribed to. I think we think the lowest expectations from the commercial side, which is you try to get as much personal data as you can write. You ask for those emails and you leave. You might let somebody unsubscribe from a newsletter, but you don’t delete their emails. Right? And a much, much more ethical model we feel is in the european union, the G D P R. I can’t remember what that stands for. But the idea is that, um, the people, the consumers, constituents, donors, volunteers are in charge of their data and they get to tell us how they want to be engaged with us, right? They get to tell us that they want to be forgotten entirely from our systems. They don’t want to be on any of our list. They don’t want to be in our systems. And that flipping over of the model we think is very in keeping with being human centered, right? It’s very in keeping with the values that we’re trying to, uh, in view in this whole concept of smart nonprofits, right? That we shouldn’t fear, um, asking people what the value we provide to them is. Right. Do we brought enough value in having their email for them to want to stay with us or are we just turning through again, as we said in the beginning, turning them through systems like the cogs in a great big machinery. So we think the smart tech is going to generate even more data than the last 10 years of digital tech, which is astonishing to think about kind of mind blowing to think about

[00:25:18.86] spk_0:
Because I think didn’t you cite 90 90% of the data that we have is in the past two years?

[00:25:34.41] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. It is remarkable to explode. And so we need to be, we need to raise the bar on our ethical considerations on the use of data and the relationship that we have with our constituents. They need to trust us more. The fact that the nonprofit sector along with other sectors, the degree of trust is going down. tony is, is not good and we ought to hold ourselves to higher standards of privacy and data protection.

[00:26:52.20] spk_0:
Two weeks ago, Gene Takagi and I talked about that exact subject in a show that I called in nonprofits do we trust? It was just, it was just two weeks ago. It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies, your tech is an investment invest wisely. What’s the state of your office infrastructure? Should you give remote or hybrid employees tech allowances or just give them the equipment outright or both or neither. How’s your disaster recovery plan? How’s your backup working? four D. Can help you with all these investment decisions, check the listener landing page tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But you know they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to the smart non profit Do we know what the impact has been on, on business? Uh,

[00:27:02.62] spk_1:

[00:27:13.65] spk_0:
out of the G D P R has, it, has it had the devastating effect on business that the business community in europe was, was claiming when they were, uh, lobbying against it or trying to, you know, trying to weaken it. Do we, do we know I’m putting you on the spot. Do either of you know, whether that’s had such a devastating impact on european business?

[00:27:25.95] spk_1:
It’s been fine. And, and look, companies, commercial companies here have had to put, uh, more effort into privacy issues when they do work in the european

[00:27:37.36] spk_0:

[00:27:40.59] spk_1:
you know,

[00:27:40.96] spk_0:

[00:27:41.82] spk_1:
for Nya are holding people to the same standards now. Um, but it hasn’t had a huge negative impact on business,

[00:27:50.70] spk_0:
you know,

[00:27:51.44] spk_1:
it’s fine.

[00:28:01.23] spk_0:
Okay, okay, now this, this smart tech artificial intelligence we’re talking about, this is widely used commercially, Right? I mean, isn’t this, I don’t know, fundamental to amazon google the 24 hour chatbots that beth mentioned, you know, you see a little about 24 7, the likelihood of that being a live person at four in the morning is very, very small. This, this is, this is ubiquitous in the commercial sector,

[00:28:22.79] spk_1:
isn’t it?

[00:28:23.82] spk_2:
Yes, it is, but I think we’re at this point um, uh, Allison likes to call it the heel of the hockey stick where it’s going to the cross of this technology has come down. It’s becoming democratized and it’s becoming more accessible to non profits of all sizes.

[00:28:41.29] spk_0:

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
don’t have to be nasa to use this.

[00:28:51.56] spk_0:
All right. Now to keep yourself out of jargon jail. You’re gonna have to explain the, uh, the hockey stick on a graph metaphor. So go ahead, tell us what X and Y are and why it looks like a

[00:28:54.63] spk_1:
hockey stick.

[00:28:55.50] spk_2:
Okay. It’s okay. So imagine a hockey stick, right. Or I should do it this way. I’m looking at my

[00:29:02.71] spk_0:
nobody can, nobody can see your hands, but we all know what

[00:29:04.91] spk_2:
happened, but

[00:29:05.98] spk_0:
not sophisticated enough to know what hockey sticks.

[00:29:20.11] spk_2:
It basically shows. And this happens with technology. Um, is that, you know, early adopters use it because it’s very expensive, experimental. It’s unproven. And as it, the technology improve and the cost comes down and it becomes more accessible to consumers and small businesses into organizations. The adoption rate starts to skyrocket. So it goes up. So you see sort of a flat line and then a steep hill or steep mountain increase in

[00:29:35.49] spk_0:
X’s time. And why is technology adoption?

[00:29:39.42] spk_2:

[00:29:40.76] spk_0:
Yeah. You’re better at

[00:29:41.91] spk_2:
charts than I am.

[00:29:43.65] spk_0:
Okay, well, you, you, you invoked the metaphor of the hockey stick. You gotta, you gotta be able to stand behind it now.

[00:29:48.41] spk_2:
Oh, I guess I guess I should.

[00:29:50.13] spk_0:
All right. All right.

[00:30:31.21] spk_1:
It’s not just nonprofits adopting this now. tony I would say that it’s all medium and small sized organizations in every sector that now has available to them, technology that they couldn’t afford just a few years ago. And that’s, that’s what the difference is. The technology is a brand new, it’s just become very affordable for smaller organizations. However, as I mentioned before, just because it’s available and just because it’s affordable, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right stuff to grab off the shelf. And that’s the part that’s that’s the impetus for us to write this book. You need to know what you’re grabbing and using, Yeah,

[00:30:42.60] spk_0:
the availability to small and midsize shops, I think is through is throughout your book. Um, let’s tell another good story. The one with the, uh, uh, the repurposing of the school bus routes to deliver food instead of drop off Children during the pandemic because Children were no longer going to school. So they repurposed school busses to drop

[00:30:55.43] spk_1:
off meals.

[00:30:57.87] spk_0:
Who knows that story best.

[00:30:59.76] spk_2:
Yeah. So, you’re, you’re talking about research at Carnegie Mellon University and you’re talking about Pittsburgh school system and

[00:31:07.96] spk_0:
Pittsburgh school system.

[00:32:38.23] spk_2:
United Pittsburgh school district or whatever it’s called. Um, so this was at the very beginning of the pandemic when we were in the shutdown and um, and kids that are in schools that are in poorer areas relied on the school lunch program to get their meals right. And so if schools were shut down and, and, and students were tele community, there’s no way to get this food. So they used a machine learning algorithm to re engineer the must routes to take the food to the kids in the most efficient way. It’s really interesting how during the pandemic, you know, there was a little bit of a silver lining. I know it’s awful. But there was a silver lining for some nonprofits to really push and to innovate. And I think food banks in a way we’re forced to do this. Um, there’s another example in boston of the boston food bank completely automating its inventory and it’s stocking to become a lot more efficient. And at one point they even were experimenting with having robots come in and stock the shelves because most of the food banks, volunteers are older and they were told not, you know, during the very early part of the pandemic, not to, you know, come in because it could be dangerous to their health. Um, and that’s also a great kind of idea story, use scenario to think about to do the threat modeling that we were talking about earlier. So let’s just say for example, food banks. So let’s let’s bring in the robots and have

[00:32:38.99] spk_1:
them stock

[00:32:40.47] spk_2:
the shelves, you know, so, but you also have to think about that volunteers who are coming in, um, to do this type of work. Those were their lifeline in terms,

[00:32:50.89] spk_0:

[00:32:51.75] spk_2:
How are they going to feel and how are we going to redesign the volunteer job and how are you going to encourage them to come back in and make them feel safe and welcome into the food

[00:33:02.13] spk_1:
bank. Right.

[00:33:02.86] spk_0:
Less feeling less unless they feel useless and replaced by machinery. And this is all the organization thought of us. And now they now it’s just a bunch of metal replacing us metal and plastic parts. So yeah. Alright. Also being human centered, reflective,

[00:33:59.75] spk_1:
but that that’s that’s the dividend of time, tony if you can say all right, we used to have these uh, you know, two dozen volunteers who came in and were stocking shelves all the time. And now we’ve automated that task. What is it that these, you know, lovely people who wanted to help could do that would be so, you know, deeply human and centered as you say, and uh, you know, in in improving our relationship with our clients. Maybe they could be calling clients. So what else do you need? You know, what else is happening for you or just saying hello to somebody, Right. I mean, there are all sorts of wonderful human things that those people could now do if they want to um that they never had the time to do before. That’s the that’s where this is again, a leadership issue of really thinking about how do we want to use our human capital in the next chapter of organizational development?

[00:35:40.16] spk_0:
Okay, I think that’s an excellent example of the dividend of time that we’re we’re about a half an hour in or so. So let me uh let me try my, my skepticism out on you that we I’ve heard this before, that there was gonna be, there were promises of increased productivity and increased time. I’m thinking of smartphones, we’re going to give us more time and they certainly make us more productive, but I don’t I don’t I don’t see studies saying that we we have so much more time. I see that time being absorbed now you might say, well maybe I’m making your case for you that time being re allocated. Unthought feli unwisely. But I don’t I don’t see people walking around feeling that they’ve got so much more free time since the widespread adoption of smartphones 10 years ago or so. Um Another video conferencing, you know, whatever teams uh zoom, I hear more about zoom burnout than I do about feeling that I’ve got so much more time available because I don’t have to go to meetings. I don’t have to go to the office. Um You know, so those are a couple of the paperless office. That was another paper, the promise of the paperless office was going to be so much so much more efficient for us and I think that was gonna save time because we wouldn’t have to file papers and it was gonna save office space because we wouldn’t need storage and these promises. Um I sound like a whining 60 year old, but these promises have not come

[00:35:44.78] spk_2:
to not

[00:35:46.09] spk_0:
come to fruition in the

[00:35:46.96] spk_2:
past. So I’ll take what I’ll tackle the zoom fatigue thing and, and then Alison can kind of related to smart text. So

[00:35:56.32] spk_0:
I guess I should say uh, it’s not whining. I don’t want to sound like a curmudgeonly 60 year old.

[00:36:00.94] spk_2:
Well you’re not a curmudgeon and you never whine.

[00:36:03.79] spk_0:
All right, Thank you.

[00:36:52.45] spk_2:
So, so if you take zoom fatigue, right? Um, and that came from stanford University and basically what is causing it is the flight or fight response that is going on in our bodies when we see the grid. I mean, there’s some ways to mitigate it. But what happened is is that nonprofits like many businesses all of a sudden were forced to pivot to becoming remote distributed teams. We never really work like that. So the idea was, let’s just all make, get a zoom meeting. Let’s just take everything we did in person and just plop it online. And what happened because everybody was doing this there was, we didn’t really evaluate how do we collaborate effectively. What do we need, what can we do? Like a synchronously so we can make use of our synchronous or real time experience. So we can make meetings shorter. There’s research from Microsoft that shows that if you have stacked back to back meetings without taking a break your level of stress just stays the same throughout the day. And so if organizations were reflective, knowledgeable

[00:37:07.39] spk_0:
and kind of prepared, they

[00:37:16.17] spk_2:
Would have looked at and said, Okay, so let’s look at how we can, you know, stick to a culture of maybe a 20 minute meeting with 10 minute break in between or have a zoom number per day that we know that we’re not going to schedule more than x number of meetings, which would then think to how do we rethink our work? Um So it’s not just the technology, that’s true, the technology doesn’t create the dividend of time. It’s a combination of the technology with thoughtful leadership, reflective leadership as we’ve been saying, that can then change the culture.

[00:37:41.25] spk_0:

[00:37:51.31] spk_1:
And let me let me let me build on that tony So we have an entire generation of digital technology That was intended to make us go faster, right? That was that’s what it has done. We are at a point now, we’re checking your email on average, 74 times a day is quote normal, right?

[00:38:04.53] spk_0:
We’ve gone from uh let’s say facts to email, to texting to to to um slack.

[00:39:36.27] spk_1:
We we we get that this technology, smart tech ai automation is not that technology, it is a fundamentally different kind of technology that’s intended to do things instead of people not to have us do more, But as Beth just said, it’s only going to do that. If we implement it thoughtfully, right, if we end up in the same place where we are checking on the box 74 times a day shame on us. The stuff has the potential to relieve us of so much administrative wrote work that just eats up everybody’s day. And if we can co bott well and have the bots do what they’re supposed to do and the people do what they they’re supposed to do, we can actually re humanize work. But as you know we’re just at the beginning of this process a lot of this is theoretical and that’s again is why we wrote this book instead of jumping in and grabbing the stuff and adding it onto your existing dizziness, frantic nous culture, we need you to stop and think and figure out how to do this. Well you know

[00:40:34.55] spk_2:
there’s some research that’s from M. I. T. Sloan school that looked at the effectiveness of this technology and um and where it is effective is if people don’t just focus on the efficiency of it that is to, okay well we can get all of these tests done way more efficiently because people aren’t cutting and pasting from different spreadsheets. Um But we’re not gonna fill up people’s with more work to do so it’s not to go faster, it’s really to be more effective and so if this technology can be implemented and it can kind of relieve some of that stress and pain of overload then that has an impact on morale and people feeling good about where they work and there is a synergistic impact that the study found that where efficiency and kind of effectiveness, let’s work together. So there’s so that can have more people feel better about their work, they do better, they get better results, they’re less likely to quit, there’s less likely to be turnover and the organization moves forward in a in a better way with better outcomes.

[00:41:09.01] spk_0:
Right, Okay. Alright. And that’s that’s if if it’s adopted with leaders consciously being human centered, knowledgeable, reflective, prepared. Uh and we’re gonna get to trust and empathy. Um All right, well you may have moved me from skeptic to uh cautious optimist.

[00:41:16.14] spk_2:
I was gonna say, what are you still are you still a little uh

[00:41:34.32] spk_0:
you know the history, the history has not has not borne out that leaders have adopted the new technology reflectively thoughtfully and prepared. Lee um It’s just so I’m just basically,

[00:41:36.18] spk_2:

[00:44:17.51] spk_0:
Me, they never had its 2022. Now they have the book, they didn’t have it when we went from facts to email or email to slack or email the text and text. Alright, Alright. No, no it’s okay. Um so leaders please uh keep listening. It’s time for Tony’s take to debunk the top five myths of planned giving, that’s my free webinar coming up. It’s Tuesday october 18th at 10 a.m. Pacific one o’clock Eastern I say free webinar but it’s not free for everyone. It’s free for you because you’re gonna use checkout code tony T. O N Y couldn’t be simpler. I think you have to put it all in caps too. I’m not sure about that part but do it all in caps to be safe. So I’m gonna be talking about debunking these insidious, pernicious top five myths of planned giving, I hate them, I loathe them, they are loathsome, that’s why I loathe them because they keep people away from planned giving like the one that says plan giving is gonna ruin all your other fundraising. It’s going to take away from your annual gift and your major annual giving and major giving. Debunk. We’re gonna debunk that and for others as well. So join me very simple to sign up. Of course. You go to our gracious host site. We are thoughtfully hosted by N. P. Solutions. So you go to N. P. Solutions dot org. You click workshops, you’ll find me in the list and then when you’re checking out use that code tony do it in all caps and it’ll be free for you. Not for everybody, but for you, I hope you’ll be with me. Let’s debunk these Hateful Top five Myths. That is tony stick to we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the smart non profit with Beth Canter and Alison fine. Let’s let’s talk some about the leadership. That’s perfect. So you mentioned the three things I really want to talk about trustworthy empathy uh, and curiosity and I have to get this in. If you had an H then you could have spelled out tech trustworthy empathy, curious, high minded

[00:44:18.40] spk_2:
human, human centered,

[00:44:26.89] spk_0:
human centered. You need, you got the T. E. C. In the book. I was looking where’s the H. All right. Uh, what does it look like for leaders to be to be trustworthy? To adopt Trust?

[00:44:34.88] spk_1:

[00:44:38.64] spk_0:
who who’s the best, who’s the most trustworthy explainer of of trust?

[00:44:43.00] spk_1:

[00:44:43.18] spk_0:
don’t care. It could be either one. Okay, Allison Trust is yours. We got to go in order and then if we can come up with an H uh centered, but that you already have that in the in becoming a smart non profit That’s that. You already covered that one. So you can come up with another one. Um Herculean, heroic, heroic, Herculean, Right. Trust Alison, Why why is this trust?

[00:46:58.76] spk_1:
Important? So organizations are making a bond with people in their communities, right? We are, we are asking them to come along on a journey with us, uh, to be clients to be donors, to be volunteers, to engage with us in some way and trust is the stuff that’s sticking us together, right? It is social capital. It is thinking that an organization has your best interests at heart, not just their best interests at heart. And um, I feel like for 20 years, so many organizations have been going moving so quickly on this hamster wheel advised by people who make a lot of money off of transactional fundraising and transactional engagement online and have lost sight of the fact that unless and until people out there trust that you are doing the right stuff in the right way, nothing else matters. And we’re all trying to scale way too quickly, tony without really understanding the fundamental D. N. A. Of making sure that we are entirely values aligned from what we want to do to what we’re actually doing to the outcomes. And again, you know, beth and I feel so strongly that the nonprofit sector is such an incredibly special place, right? We are the epicenter of the world for you know, providing human services and doing advocacy work and it is such an incredibly brave, difficult work and yet we still have a ways to go in asking are the leadership of organizations both C suite and the boards to raise the bar to be more transparent uh to to ask more questions about how they’re doing, to measure their outcomes, to uh take care of their people internally and externally better. And so that’s why we put trust so high up on the scale of what we want organizations to be focused on.

[00:47:19.32] spk_0:
I think leaders feel when they’re there

[00:47:24.02] spk_1:

[00:47:24.70] spk_0:
short in in in in in the aspirations that you just described. I think I think folks feel it it’s just but they’re on that hamster wheel and it’s, it’s hard to take, it’s hard to take that step back and and acknowledge what you’re feeling and be introspective as an organization.

[00:49:01.87] spk_1:
Let me, let me, let me describe something though. That’s really important. tony that we as a sector don’t talk nearly enough about. And that’s what Beth and I called the leaky bucket in fundraising. Right? So year one, you get 100 donors by year two, you’re down to 25 of those. You’ve lost 75% of those donors Because you’re so busy filling up the bucket again because you’ve lost 75% the year before and all you’re doing is this transactional fundraising, the email, the direct mail to fill up the bucket again. All of the measures of fundraising success are front loaded, right of did we hit those, you know, revenue targets for this year? Very few organizations are really focused on donor retention and how to increase it. It’s never been at a board table for discussion that I have been at in many, many years, many, many organizations of being on the board and that is where the panic comes in. And it feels terrible to staff and you know, my heart just goes out to all of those people who are in a panic about hitting those revenue numbers knowing that what they’re working with is hemorrhaging donors every single day and that’s where, you know, just in my heart of hearts tony I just want everybody to stop, just stop and take a step back and figure out how to improve your relationship with donors more. So they stay longer with you and you’re not in this panic every day.

[00:49:25.83] spk_0:
Allison, we’re gonna come back to you for for curiosity beth let’s talk about empathy,

[00:49:29.41] spk_1:

[00:51:40.41] spk_2:
sure. And I think the empathy is, needs to be turned within first before it gets turned outside to the donors to solve um, what what Alison was just talking about. But so empathetic leadership means the ability to understand the needs of others and being aware of their feelings and thoughts. And unfortunately it’s viewed as kind of like a soft skill. Um, and it’s not always linked to performance, um, indicators, right? And so I think it’s really important, especially with what we’ve been through in the pandemic, um, that organizations really need to have clear expectations with their managers to lead in a way that is supportive of, of employees and that supports and contributes to their overall well being and they can do that and still get work done. Um, and I think that like don’t get me started on well being, but um, well being has to be put center and it has to be raised up and given as much importance as fundraising metrics or, or other financial metrics, especially given what we’ve been through. And so this includes checking in training people to like actually observe on their staff and making sure that their, um, you know, caretakers for each other’s well being. And it’s, you know, like a one on one check in isn’t just about, hey, where’s that report? Where’s that proposal? But it’s also how people are feeling what their energy is. Like what their job experiences like what could be improved, which gets us closer to that conversation around technology. So, um, the types of skills and competencies that make for a culture of care or empathy or self awareness and self regulation, adaptive skills, active listening coaching with powerful questions, observing for signs of burnout. Being able to give and receive feedback in a way that doesn’t cause stress, disrupting microaggressions, inclusive facilitation, having those difficult conversations sometimes, which is too nice. But there’s ways to have those conversations that aren’t devastating and genuine perspective, taking. Being able to see it from other people’s points of view. And it doesn’t, I don’t think that makes us weaker. I really think it makes us stronger.

[00:51:54.81] spk_0:
You know,

[00:52:05.03] spk_2:
it’s not a bunch of, you know, reaction when I wrote the happy, healthy. Yeah. Right. We get the, you know, that’s a bunch of hippie crap. Yeah.

[00:52:07.04] spk_0:
I didn’t say that when I talk to you. You

[00:52:08.92] spk_2:
didn’t say that. Of course you wouldn’t say that. You’re too smart.

[00:52:25.83] spk_0:
Thank you. Well, you hardly know me, but thank you. I’ll take it anyway. Um, I know a lot of what you’re describing to is vulnerability. And I think vulnerability is a sign of uh is evidence of confidence that you’re, that you’re strong enough to be vulnerable where lots of people think it’s a sign of weakness that you’re showing, you know, you’re, you’re showing your human side and you know that I think that’s terribly misguided. Um alright, if we’re gonna, we’re gonna, I’m gonna keep you uh not beyond our allocated time. Let’s go to Alison for for curiosity.

[00:52:48.83] spk_1:
Why is it important?

[00:52:50.46] spk_0:
Yes. Why is, why is curiosity a valued trait for leaders?

[00:54:31.33] spk_1:
Uh, you know, the world is moving really fast tony and we have um, a lot of organizational leaders who think tech is not their thing, right? Tech is for somebody else and it can’t not be your thing. If you’re running an organization right now, it’s too important. It’s threaded throughout everything that your organization is doing and you can’t just lean back, You need to lean into it and to do that? You need to be genuinely curious about in our case for smart tech, What is this stuff and why is important and how is it different from the last generation of technology and what could we actually accomplish if we didn’t spend three quarters of our day responding to emails? What is possible out there in the world. And you know, my heart breaks for so many of the nonprofit folks that beth and I talked to who have such good intentions and are so deeply unhappy with how stressful their jobs are or how unrecognized they are by the C suite um or how um pressurized they feel. So it is just uh innately important for organizational leaders to be genuinely curious about, where do we go from here? Right. The world broke two years ago in so many fundamental ways the political economic stress of this moment is wearing people down but we can’t stay here tony we need to go somewhere and we genuinely believe that the family of technologies we call smart tech creates an opportunity to be different in the future to make work joyful and much more meaningful and rewarding and you can only get there if you’re genuinely curious and engaged in understanding the technology

[00:54:58.39] spk_0:
and I think curiosity and empathy are interrelated to curiosity about your people as beth was for all the, in all the ways Beth was describing. That’s

[00:55:08.56] spk_1:
exactly right

[00:55:12.54] spk_0:
alright. Um I don’t suppose the beth I don’t suppose you on the fly came up with an H for to spell out tech for us. Did you?

[00:55:23.89] spk_2:

[00:55:24.77] spk_0:
Have that one already?

[00:55:27.02] spk_2:

[00:55:28.26] spk_0:
Humility is a good one. There you go.

[00:55:29.86] spk_2:
So let’s riff on that humility in

[00:55:31.81] spk_0:
the second edition, you can add, you can add humility and spell out

[00:55:35.20] spk_2:
text and then we’ll footnote and say suggested by tony

[00:55:44.65] spk_0:
Thank you. Yeah, humility. Right. Isn’t that simple? Yeah, related to being empathetic leaders don’t need to know everything, do they?

[00:55:49.85] spk_1:
Oh gosh

[00:55:50.62] spk_2:
no listen

[00:56:15.01] spk_1:
we you know the reason why we wrote the network on profit tony was to take that idea of the hierarchical model of leadership and organizations out of the equation and say the point is somebody else in your network has the answer. You don’t have to have the answer yourself. You just have to know how to go about getting it right and and that of of flattening your organization and your worldview is so important to being able to survive all the uncertainties of what’s happening right now.

[00:56:52.37] spk_0:
Since we started with Allison, Beth I’m gonna let you wrap us up please. There’s so much more in the book. There are use cases, you know, we don’t the book, we can only scratch the surface here. You gotta get the book. That’s the point. You get. They talk about increasing program capacity, fundraising, back office automation, including a lot of talk about human resources. Um you just you gotta get the book which is the smart non profit but beth why don’t you leave us with inspiration and wisdom?

[00:58:30.19] spk_2:
Okay. Um we’ve been through a lot the sector has been through a lot. I mean the world’s been through a lot in the last 22 plus years with the pandemic and accompanying other crisis is and as Allison is outlined and I think we’re we are like at a precipice where we could just either go down the rabbit hole of you know a human capital crisis and spiraling out and people leaving the field and organizations just, you know, stopping business and, you know, leaving lots of people who are vulnerable who need their services. I mean, that’s we can’t go there. We have to pivot. And I think that um, smart tech is part of the tools that can help us get there. But again, their tools, they also need this empathetic leadership that we’ve been talking about and we who can also steer and change the culture to put people first. Um, and um, and I think if we can have all of these things together, working for the organization, the Smart Tech plus the culture plus the leadership, uh, we’ll be able to move forward in a post pandemic world with much better outcomes with happier staff, with staff doing a better job with donors, feeling seen and heard and wanting to, you know, um write bigger checks if you will with clients who are receiving the services that they need and we’re on a path to a better world. It’s not gonna be easy, but uh, we believe that non profits can do this.

[00:58:48.89] spk_0:
That’s beth cantor at Beth Kanter and Beth Kanter dot org co author Alison Fine at a fine and Allison Fine dot com. The book is the smart non profit you can find it in either of their two sites,

[00:59:00.00] spk_1:

[00:59:00.35] spk_0:
and Allison, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing

[00:59:03.70] spk_2:

[01:00:00.00] spk_0:
pleasure next week. Eric Sapperstein returns after many years. Let’s talk about waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech You find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff showed social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 26, 2022: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?


Gene Takagi: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?

Gene Takagi

Public trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that, what does it mean for our work, and what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO Law Group, returns with his insights.



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[00:00:52.08] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of fragility as angry. Um if you nailed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show in nonprofits, do we trust? Public Trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that? And what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi are legal contributor and principal of neo Law group returns with his insights On Tony’s take two. This is not planned, giving

[00:00:57.14] spk_1:

[00:01:41.13] spk_0:
sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi, you know who he is. Of course he he we owe him the introduction that he that he deserves, but you know who he is, He’s our legal contributor, Managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco he edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should follow and he’s a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and jean is at G tech. Gene

[00:01:58.66] spk_1:

[00:01:59.11] spk_0:
for being back Welcome.

[00:02:00.73] spk_1:
It’s great to be here.

[00:02:03.15] spk_0:
It’s always a genuine pleasure. Thank you.

[00:02:07.78] spk_1:

[00:02:20.77] spk_0:
talking about public trust today. Uh not only your concerns, but you’re, you’re seeing evidence of. And I’m certainly reading some things too about eroding public trust in nonprofits. What what are you seeing? What are you thinking about that?

[00:02:27.69] spk_1:
You know, my first thoughts, tony is that trust really is the foundation of, of good relationships, right. No matter whether we’re talking about person to person,

[00:02:39.09] spk_0:
person to

[00:03:18.40] spk_1:
charity, you know, person to other institutions and charities I think are especially reliant on trust because if you’re asking people and groups and organizations to give money to you, um, they’ve got to trust that you’re gonna do use that money for charitable purposes, not for personal gain, not for other things, but for the charitable purposes that they want to support. And when trust erodes in our charities, that’s really a red flag and sort of a harbinger of things, bad things that could follow. So trust is really important, I think, um, to talk about. And the study, the most recent study that came out from independent sector and Edelman Data and intelligence found that there’s low trust amongst all institutions. So maybe not completely surprising, but less than a third say the trust, government, large corporations and the news media

[00:03:35.93] spk_0:

[00:04:08.91] spk_1:
charities, relatively speaking are better than that in terms of the trust factor, but it’s been dropping and nonprofits as a, as a sector, The trust and nonprofits now is 56%. The rest either are neutral on it or have a distrust of nonprofits, only 56% and only 36% trust philanthropy or foundations and grantmaking organizations, so that’s really, really low. And women’s trust and non profits dropped even more than than men. Um, and I think another flag to point out is our younger generations, especially gen Z

[00:04:17.56] spk_0:

[00:04:18.43] spk_1:
have a distrust of nonprofits. Um, and

[00:04:22.83] spk_0:

[00:04:23.75] spk_1:
the wealth transfer that’s expected from baby boom generation to millennials and two gen Z, that’s got to be alarming to nonprofits. And I, I think it’s just worthy to call out right now.

[00:04:35.97] spk_0:
Do you know what that number is among gen z. Trust in nonprofits that in the independent sector include that in in their survey.

[00:04:49.81] spk_1:
Well, the statistic that I, I saw that that called out to me was 57% of gen z. Americans say giving directly to individuals makes a bigger impact than giving to nonprofits. So they would rather give to individuals on go fund me or another crowdfunding site than to give to a nonprofit. They find that more trustworthy.

[00:05:16.77] spk_0:
There’s another dimension to the, to the trust, which is government, trust in nonprofits. And you could read government as congressional or, you know, I. R. S. But you know, they they, the the U. S. Government has bestowed the charitable deduction so that the money is used for, as you said, you know, for charitable purposes as disclosed in your organizing documents. And if if I’m thinking more of Congress, you know, if congress feels that

[00:05:43.59] spk_1:

[00:05:43.80] spk_0:
nonprofit community can’t be trusted, you know, we could start to see some erosion of, uh, clawback of some of the, the benefits that nonprofits enjoy. Tax free status, for instance, and the charitable deduction to name a couple of

[00:06:00.50] spk_1:

[00:06:01.37] spk_0:
wildly valuable ones.

[00:06:22.64] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s such a great point because just a few days ago, there was news about a case in Minnesota where government funding to feed poor Children, um, there was a huge scandal involving tens of millions of dollars. So, um, it really speaks to two if government stops trusting nonprofits or certain government agencies and cuts funding to agencies, how harmful that might be to charities and the beneficiaries they’re trying to serve.

[00:06:35.87] spk_0:
I think that one was even worse. I think it was like $240 million dollars

[00:06:41.59] spk_1:

[00:06:42.04] spk_0:
of pandemic aid money. I saw that in, in Minnesota is supposed to be going to feed Children during the pandemic and, and pocketed. Yeah,

[00:06:52.51] spk_1:
patterns there as well. It’s, it’s,

[00:06:55.94] spk_0:

[00:06:58.09] spk_1:

[00:06:58.93] spk_0:
is. It’s, it’s, um, and then of course there’s always been Charles grassley. I mean, he’s been, he’s been nipping at, uh, foundations and donor advised funds for for years

[00:08:03.64] spk_1:
now. Yeah. And in fact, the whole charitable sector, I think, um, and a significant portion of our lawmakers, um, take a consumer protection perspective of, we want to protect donors, um, and not strengthening the nonprofit sector perspective they want to create laws that will per, you know, try to prevent, um, uh, fraud or misuse of charitable funds as if this is rampant amongst the nonprofit sector, which my position is, it is not, but there are certain high profile cases that hit the new york times and the Washington post and all the other newspapers. And there’s so much media coverage that focuses on scandals because that’s what’s gonna sell right. The tweet or the short snippet that people’s attention span will, will actually stop on. Um, it’s gonna sell much more if it’s a scandal rather than a long term growth in in impact. Even, you know, the, the great news that child poverty has, has been really declining in in the country, which should be huge news gets short shrift compared to some of the big scandals that we hear about.

[00:09:08.60] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. When I name dropped Charles Grassley, I should have said Senator, senator from Iowa, Republican, senator from Iowa Charles grassley. Um, yeah, right. It’s, it’s the scandals that, that’s, that get clicks that sell papers that get attention. I remember, I’m sure you do several years ago there was a scandal among an, an organization supposedly raising money for Navy Veterans like Navy Navy Veteran Foundation or something like that several years ago, but it was very high profile. Um, what was the other, do you remember, I don’t mean to put you on the spot. It’s okay if you don’t remember because I don’t the, uh, the veterans organization that was accused of squandering, you know, tens of millions of dollars on lavish retreats and high, high executive salaries. But, but, but it it had it had great outcomes. It was, it was funding lots of veterans organizations.

[00:09:25.25] spk_1:
I think the one you’re talking about is the Wounded Warriors.

[00:09:29.11] spk_0:
Thank you. Yes. Project.

[00:09:51.07] spk_1:
And yeah, it’s, um, it’s always difficult. Um, looking at an organization through the eyes of the media, um, about how, you know, how well or unwell they did. I don’t want to create, um, you know, uh, discuss particular scandals too much other than to say that they create problems for the whole sector. So, you know, that’s, it’s just something to be aware of. And they’re not necessarily reflective of the vast majority of nonprofits out there trying to do good work and help people.

[00:10:17.64] spk_0:
The 99.99% you know, our our that’s even higher than the nonprofit radio 95% No, uh, 99.99% of nonprofits are not scandalous. And could they, could many of them be running more efficiently. Yes, but we’re not, we’re not talking about mere efficiency. You know, we’re talking about erosion of trust because of high profile crises or scandals malfeasance.

[00:10:37.97] spk_1:
Yeah, high

[00:10:39.21] spk_0:

[00:10:39.92] spk_1:

[00:11:55.21] spk_0:
representative. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They know the nonprofit community and they know pr and journalism. Both partners are former journalists peter pan a pinto, one of the two worked as senior managing editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. And after that he was at the council on foundations. So he understands the nonprofit space very well, which means he understands your challenges, understands how important pr and being a thought leader is to to your work. And the two of them together know how to build relationships with outlets, not just with journalists, but you know, also podcasters, um, conference organizers. So they understand nonprofits, they understand communications, how to build relationships and that’s what’s gonna get you heard across all media. So let’s turn to turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to in nonprofits. Do we trust?

[00:12:00.88] spk_1:
It takes me to another tangent though, now that you talked about efficiency, tony and that’s kind of, we’ve talked about it before and you’ve talked about it with the writers of uh, article or a letter called the overhead myth. I don’t know if you recall

[00:12:16.06] spk_0:
that many years ago. Yes. The C E O. S of charity Navigator better business. Bureau wise giving alliance and guidestar.

[00:13:08.09] spk_1:
Yeah. And you know, they were saying that we shouldn’t, you know, base ratings on a charity in terms of how worthy they are to receive funds from donors simply based on overhead ratio. You know what their admin and fundraising costs are relative to their programmatic costs and those are really wise wise words, um, that that were stated in that letter. But even today we still see organizations even high profile ones that talk about their low overhead ratio. And it can engender trust um, in their organization at the expense of trust of other organizations that legitimately have higher overhead ratios because the infrastructures and you know, the things that they need to do may be completely different. So it’s not fair to, you know, compare across the board and across the maturity of an organization. So

[00:14:06.82] spk_0:
another very valuable thing to invest in is is research, research, uh, maybe maybe going beyond research, activating a new program that, you know, that may or may not succeed, but you have to invest upfront, you know that it’s annoying the folks who hold different opinions about wise investment in technology, you know, it’s Uber should be losing money for the 1st 12 years, you know, because it’s investing in the future. Um, Tesla, you know, non profit unprofitable for many years, but you know, look where they are now, but, but in the nonprofit sector, you know, we don’t we don’t allow that that research and um, spending on innovation, we consider that overhead like, you know, like, like rent, which rent happens to be important too, but you know, something, something um, rent is not a good example, but sort of, you know, frivolous or you know, self indulgent when it could very well be research and and scaling up for for a for a dynamic

[00:14:29.60] spk_1:
future or even things like a living wage.

[00:15:22.90] spk_0:
Yeah. Good. Exactly. Thank you. Yes. Um, yeah, I I don’t like the, you know, I don’t like the double standard where we we we praise it in in some industries, but we we we criticize it uh, in in non profits. And I’m thinking specifically about investment in the future and whether that’s people or programs or even technology, technology is a is a valuable investment. It saves time. It creates productivity, makes people more comfortable at work. It enables them to work out of an office now and be remote, give them that benefit, which so many people are craving now, you know, but these are these are all wise investments, not not um, detrimental overhead.

[00:16:33.02] spk_1:
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And there’s a way to do it cheap. You could invest in technology on the cheap and that might have long term adverse consequences, including to kind of the sort of the data protection and privacy issues that can result. So if you’re really thinking ahead and investing in, not only just technology, just to be sort of more effective and efficient in the short term, the protective of your beneficiaries and your staff and others your donors in the long term, um, then you need to make more of an investment in that. And that’s another thing where, you know, we lose trust if you if you sort of blow your donor lists that are supposed to be private and you know, other big companies get ahold of it and start to target your donor base for unrelated things or even if they’re related sometimes, but not your organization and it was due to a slip on your part or your technology and information technology protocols. You can run into trouble. So again, investments have a double edged sword there. Great. But they can result in a loss of trust too if you’re not managing it properly and you compromise people’s information.

[00:16:41.40] spk_0:
Um, and also, you know, you mentioned living wage but investing in people so that people stay with your organization.

[00:16:48.75] spk_1:

[00:16:49.07] spk_0:
right. And that that starts with a living wage that also impacts to on technology. Uh, you know, time away professional development. You know, these are, these are investments in staff that people see and appreciate and make longevity with your organization more likely than you know, than than to to jump ship every six months.

[00:17:11.75] spk_1:
And that builds trust to write, I’m much more comfortable working with you if you’ve been with the charity for 10 years, Tony than if you were hired three months ago and there’s always a different person I’m talking to as a donor.

[00:17:31.13] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. You have some insights into what we as a community or hopefully even individual nonprofits can can start to think about take to their C. E. O. S. Take to their boards. This is always where you Excel gene.

[00:18:33.73] spk_1:
Well in the first steps are kind of simple. Um you know, it’s be compliant yourself, make sure your own houses in order. Um so we can sort of raise all of the issues with where you can lose trust with organizations. Um but even though 99.9% of the organizations are well intentioned, I can’t say that 99.9% of the organizations are compliant. Um so working to make sure you’re compliant Working to make sure that the tone is set at the top with the strong board of directors that is actually providing direction and oversight and not just simply helping you, you know, with fundraising and otherwise just rubber stamping the decisions of the leaders. I think it really is important that the tone be set at the top of the organization through the board of directors. A

[00:18:34.26] spk_0:
tone say say more about the tone.

[00:19:11.50] spk_1:
So the tone of placing the importance of a trusting relationship with our beneficiaries with our employees with our other stakeholders. I think that’s really important and that should be reflected in policies. So it’s not good enough to say, you know, this is what we believe in. So the, you know, one of the hot topics today is a board sets a diversity equity and inclusion policy. But if that policy just sits on the shelf and that’s the end of the discussion of it. And there are no actual changes or action plans attached to that that’s gonna maybe harm the organization more than help it. So the tone at the top means a board that is doing its role in moving that organization forward and focusing um not only on doing good work and, you know, metrics for for programmatic success, but on building trust within and outside of the organization.

[00:20:07.00] spk_0:
And that that Ceo board chair uh Ceo executive committee, if the board has an executive committee relationship is key to this. I mean, they they all whether it’s two people or the Ceo and a committee, you know, need to be uh you know, committed to the same, not only the same mission, but the same uh strategy for getting there. You know, the same commitment to the things that you’re talking about, this needs to be a a unified

[00:20:08.30] spk_1:

[00:20:09.10] spk_0:
group at the top between the Ceo and the board leadership.

[00:21:55.36] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s absolutely critical tony I agree. There is, however, sort of another dimension to this which adds complexity and that’s kind of the feeling amongst particularly younger generations. Again, and why there’s a little bit of distrust is too much power focused on the top of an organization without sort of distributing leadership and and the right to participate in this. You know, the bigger decisions of the organization being dispersed throughout the organization and getting input from beneficiaries about um you know, how the organization should evolve or um move forward in further its purpose if we’re not really thinking about getting other voices in it, and particularly if our boards are not very diverse, um that’s gonna engender more distrust as well um with with an organization and this leadership. So while what’s happening at the top level and the relationship between the Ceo and the chair of the board is critically important, it is really important to also make sure that leadership, authority and power is being dispersed down through the organization and that the board actually can listen to directly um input from some of the staff. Um and we shouldn’t create like a wall between board and staff completely. You know, that there’s a little bit of um new thinking on that because the old old ways is like the board should not micromanage right. We should not interfere with staff decisions, which is partly true, but it doesn’t mean that we create a complete block. So the board members don’t see the staff members and the staff don’t see the board and they just don’t know each other. So, um there is a sort of a balance there that needs to be taken.

[00:22:20.82] spk_0:
Can we, can we say a little more about that in terms of examples of how this could be done? Like you’re you’re talking about staff, but also the beneficiaries of the programmatic work. Uh is this um like, I mean, certainly beneficiaries could be members of the board or or is it more an advisory committee, but then to your point, you know, you don’t want it to just be a committee that the board doesn’t listen to. The ceo doesn’t listen to. You know, how can we uh actually execute on on some of this in terms of staff and beneficiaries?

[00:24:23.71] spk_1:
So there are a lot of different ways that it might be done and there’s no one right way for, you know, for all organizations, but getting other voices involved can be done in, you know, um through committees as you suggested, but they can’t just be advisory. If you’re really gonna disperse power, you have to give them some power even if they’re not made up of only board members and some people call any committee that is not composed of only board members, they call them at advisory committees. And because of the name, they think that they can only give advice to the board, but they don’t have any management authority. But that’s not true. You can give these other committees management authority, the way you can give a Ceo or CFO management authority, the board can delegate authority down to these other committees. These non board committees as well. So that may be one way of getting power dispersed through the organization, that that committee might be made up of some employees, some beneficiaries and maybe there is a pipeline so that some of the other people that you’d like to put onto a board, but you might not know very well, you might not have enough experience in certain things that you’d like to have them develop more knowledge of the organization and the work before they possibly a strong candidate for joining the board, but that could be a vehicle or an on ramp to being a board um board member as well. And again, creating a more diverse and stronger board with diverse perspectives and understandings of what the organization does and who it impacts. So I think there are definitely ways and we’ve seen this in other models as well. Some that have worked with some organizations and same models not working with other organizations. Hill Ocracy is sort of one example of that. What

[00:24:24.13] spk_0:
is that drug in jail? What? Hill Ocracy.

[00:25:53.62] spk_1:
Hill Ocracy is a form of management where there are still remnants of hierarchy, but a lot of decision making is made in kind of circles and circles might be employed, they might be employees and others and circles have certain autonomy over their body of decision making. So you might have a circle based on HR issues. So it’s not just one person with the final say, it’s this circle or a group in the law, we would just call it another committee. But um in hypocrisy there all circles and and this was used by some high profile for profit companies and some nonprofits, some had success with it, Some didn’t. So um there are other models out there as well, not one size will fit all, but again, there’s an administrative cost to trying to implement new models, um, but new models or maybe the way that we want to go and their movement organizations all over the place that are impacting how nonprofits and for profits are to be governed and managed. And we should be listening to some of these forces that are out there because they will gradually shape what we’re doing. You can see this by some younger people not sticking with employment as long as they were the great resignation and stuff. If you feel powerless within an organization or if you don’t feel the organization is representing what you want, your employer to be doing, they may not stay and having a little bit of say in what the organization is doing, even if it’s just the starting points because you can’t jump from point a to, you know, to the ideal point in one step, it’s gonna take a long, a long time to get there. But just to seeing that progress may be assigned to somebody to to say, I’m gonna stick around here and and find out

[00:26:35.35] spk_0:
alright creating vehicles for right people’s voices to be heard. Um, and you’re right, it’s, it’s incremental, but just the, just the showing of some progress, some initiative to uh, opening up the leadership, opening

[00:26:38.15] spk_1:

[00:26:41.97] spk_0:
strategic decision making, could be, it could be uh, you know, valuable to, to folks right? And encourage them to, to stay versus looking for someplace that’s more inclusive. Yeah.

[00:26:53.98] spk_1:
You know, if your Ceo doesn’t trust the board or if your employees don’t trust the ceo, how are you going to expect donors and your beneficiaries to trust the organization? So it really trust has to be built throughout the organization.

[00:28:41.45] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Are you seeing technology as the investment that it is not as an expense, but an investment in your sustainability, your staff productivity, your staff happiness, um, satisfaction, an investment in your donor relations through your crm database. Uh, it’s an investment in your organization’s work and its future. That’s what technology that’s where your technology ought to be thought of. And fourth dimension four D. For short can help you make those investments wisely so that you’re not squandering on something you don’t really need. Like maybe your backup is sufficient, but you need the multi factor authentication installed, etcetera. So you know, they can help you think through smart technology investments. That’s it four D. And you know where the listener landing pages to check them out. It’s at tony dot M A slash four D. Which by the way is just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to in non profits. Do we trust? What else do you see Gene as as things we can we can think about besides this sort of distributed, I’m calling it distributed leadership or maybe you call it distributed leadership. Yeah.

[00:29:32.73] spk_1:
So other things. Maybe some simple tips guard private data. We talked a little bit about it before with technology. If you’ve got data that you’re promising that will be kept confidential. Make sure you’re guarding that. Be careful about automating and depersonalizing interactions with technology as well. Like we could have a sort of a voicemail for everybody and you know, hit one if you want to do this. It too. If you want to do this and completely not let any donor speak to any individual without, you know, spending an hour on the phone that may not be, uh, seen as something that would build trust. So we have to be careful of our uses of technology there as well in our communications. Um, if you’re going to say something, um, don’t talk the talk. If you’re not going to walk the walk, right? So don’t make promises that you’re not going to keep

[00:29:41.70] spk_0:
that for an example of that is A D. I. Policy,

[00:29:45.44] spk_1:
right? Exactly

[00:29:46.80] spk_0:
written and never, never executed or remains written once and never evolves.

[00:31:13.44] spk_1:
And if you have a campaign to engage in a particular, uh, you know, program and you don’t raise enough money. And so that program never runs, you better be explaining this to your donors. Um, why that happened. And the possibility that that might happen when you start fundraising for it. So don’t just say, you know, after the fact when they complain that said, well we didn’t raise enough. So we used your money for other things that’s not going to engender trust. Um remember your mission and your beneficiaries don’t exist in a vacuum, right? Um, so it’s not just about your organization. And if you your numbers go up, um whatever metrics that you use financial performance or number of beneficiaries served whatever they are, you shouldn’t look at it as a silo. You should be looking at the entire ecosystem in which you are participating. And that would be, you know, open up things like environmentalism like you might not think environmental, your organization’s not environmental organization, but if climate change continues and creates hardships that, you know, scientists are predicting, predicting you probably will have an impact on your mission and your beneficiaries. And so to sort of think, just, you know, outside of that, that silo you want to be thinking about what your impact of your decisions will be, not only on your organization and beneficiaries, but on your allied organizations, on the broader community and what will that do to trust as well. So,

[00:32:03.91] spk_0:
a lot of these ideas, a lot of what you’re saying could be, you know, germinating in an advisory committee, you know, how could we look differently at at our contribution to climate change and what climate change means to us in the future for our for our for our people and for our work, but also what could we be doing right now, You know, even if we’re not an environmental organization siloed as you’re saying, you know, we still have an environmental impact. So what what contribution to to minimize climate change or reverse climate change can we make as well as planning for the for the future? Uh you know, that that those kinds of conversations can come out of these um advisory committees that is that are comprised of staff and and beneficiaries. I mean, these are the folks that live the mission day to day.

[00:32:36.09] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea to tony Sometimes the board may not have um or feel that they have the bandwidth to sort of discuss these sort of broader issues. Um and they’re a little bit more focused. So having the help um the advisory committee on an issue like like climate change for a non environmental organization or an organization whose mission is not focused on the environment. I think that would be great.

[00:32:45.06] spk_0:
Yeah. And I want to reiterate your point that which I’ve never thought of, advisory committees can be granted policy making authority and and and change within the organization. So whatever that looks like, you know, you can bestow that that authority

[00:33:05.16] spk_1:
Absolutely, and you can give them a budget to even sort of to putting

[00:33:11.20] spk_0:
money behind it. But that that yeah, money talks. That’s a that’s a big step granting them a budget granting them some granting them authority to make change that’s empowering and an advisory committee. All right.

[00:34:01.14] spk_1:
I think, you know, one area of trust that we haven’t spoken yet, but maybe, um why I as a lawyer and talking about these things and you’re not getting it from another consultant, is that the laws can also impact trust and non profits have to decide whether they want to set a position on certain laws. And um, some of the things that I’m thinking about is the deductibility of charitable contributions. So, we’ve had an above the line contribution where non itemizers could deduct as well because of Covid. Um, but that was just temporary. Um, and now there’s sort of a push for, well, we should make a charitable contribution deductible to all taxpayers, and not just about the 10% of taxpayers who itemize, who tend to be, you know, have a little bit more wealth, or some, in some cases a lot more than those who don’t itemize.

[00:34:17.90] spk_0:
Is it that small? The proportion of taxpayers who itemize is around 10%,,

[00:34:22.34] spk_1:
10-13%, is what I’m hearing.

[00:34:24.86] spk_0:

[00:35:52.18] spk_1:
So, um, again, you know, part of trust and distrust has to do with concentrations of power and wealth, right? And when the 1% or the .1% control so much policy control the leadership of pivotal organizations in all sectors, and in government, um, there’s going to be a distrusted institutions. Again, that, you know, one third of people distrust big institutions. Um, and, you know, that concentration of wealth and power is, is the reason why. Um so laws that sort of enforce that. So if we just give you no deductible, make make tax benefits to, to richer people who can deduct, who can itemize their deductions and not to others that may feel really unfair to the public. And another reason for distrust. So, will your organization’s, even though tax policy is probably almost no organization’s mission, it has an impact. Um, and so it may be something that organizations want to take a look at. And there are organizations like independent sector of the National Council on nonprofits and others who the Tax Policy center that that can explain this a little bit. But you you may want to take a look and see if you want to put a position on it. And one of the things that I also think, um engender distrust is when the media miss reports, the law in one area where the mis reported it is a lot of media say, charities can’t lobby and that’s just not true. Um, so charities can lobby on things like, you know, the the above the line deduction. Um, and and on other things as well, and there are just certain limits that apply, but they’re often generous, So learn a little bit more and we can build a stronger sector?

[00:36:21.84] spk_0:
Well, you and I have talked about the the lobbying limits on previous shows, is it is it safe to say that the law hasn’t changed over the past? I don’t know, 23 years maybe, since you and I have talked about this.

[00:36:34.17] spk_1:

[00:37:06.11] spk_0:
So, so at Tony-Martignetti.com, you can search gene Takagi, you’ll find many episodes that he’s on and one or one or two are about the uh, the lobbying limits, I think, I think the last time may have been 2020 when the pre election. So we may well, with the, with the election in late The election in late 2020, so we may have done something like in mid-2020 or so on the lobbying, uh, exemption or Well, that’s not that’s not that’s not the right phrase. What the limits of lobbying and you make the you just said, you know, they are, they are generous in some cases. It’s not it’s not that it has to be a de minimus proportion of your budget or something.

[00:37:24.83] spk_1:
Yeah, the

[00:37:26.87] spk_0:

[00:37:27.68] spk_1:
the losses insubstantial which scares the majority of charities away from doing any of it, but it turns out it can be fairly generous limits to engaging in lobbying.

[00:38:01.79] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and the point that you made before that, I was going to say something about that too. Well, sorry, what did you say? Right before you were talking about the uh, the permissibility of some lobbying activities. You made a point? Yes, thank you. The last thing we want is for Donating to charity to be perceived as, uh, as an elitist activity. That only the only the top now you’re saying whatever 10 or 13% of the population can, can give because they’re the only ones who get the advantage because they’re the only, they’re the ones who itemize their deductions. The last thing we want is for donating to charities to be perceived as an elitist activity.

[00:39:13.92] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. tony and with, you know, with our current tax policy, how it works. Um, then I don’t want to get too complicated with that. We are seeing a shrinking middle class. I don’t think there’s anything denying that people, most people have less discretionary income. So if we look at the fundraising statistics now, the giving statistics, we see that, um, even if giving goes up Giving from kind of the middle class and smaller donors has shrunk, um, and, and quite significantly, and it’s, it’s the people, um, that have put in huge contributions that have made up for that. So the Mackenzie Scott, you know, with, I think $13 billion dollars over the last few years, they’re making up for that. But that can change the way nonprofits run if, if it’s all about, again, elite, wealthy, powerful individuals who make the big contributions that then have the ear of the boards of these organizations that then talk about policy and they create policy or, or advocate for policies that keep that dynamic in existence. So it is problematic.

[00:40:52.59] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony Take two. My latest video on linkedin is this is not planned giving uh it’s short under two minutes. I give you an example of what is not planned giving and remind you what planned giving is, how simple planned giving is when it’s done right, when you start with simple gifts by will. But I’ve got kind of a lighthearted back way of looking at it through what planned giving isn’t in the opening. So latest video on linkedin, you’ll find me on linkedin. My name is tony-martignetti by the way that has escaped you. And uh it’s my latest video there That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for in nonprofits. Do we trust with Gene Takagi? Look at this dark potential that people look at at the United States as alright, the wealthy control government because of dark money and and the Citizens United decision, the Supreme Court uh wealthy control business because only wealthy people start and or run run businesses and grow them and only only white males have the access to capital to start businesses. And then and then the perception that um the wealthy control the nonprofit

[00:41:13.41] spk_1:
sector, you

[00:41:21.27] spk_0:
know, and the wealthy control of media, you know, this is all this is all very uh a very detrimental, very dark cynical way of looking at the at the country, but I’m not I’m not sure that where that’s far away from

[00:42:10.55] spk_1:
it. Yeah, I agree. tony And I think past generations, you know, including ours, you know, we’ve always kind of done better than our parents. Our parents were lucky enough to put us in that position. But the younger generations now economically um and maybe, you know health wise and mental health wise, they may not be doing as well as their parents overall and they’re questioning kind of the system because of that. Um and we maybe didn’t question it because our generation did better than our parents um in those terms. But now there is just legitimate questioning of do we need to change these policies and these dynamics and these power structures and um you know, organizations have a say in this and and use your voice, get get people to vote. Maybe that’ll be my my one of my big messages vote

[00:43:27.00] spk_0:
voting is fundamental to although, you know, in a lot of states that’s being eroded you becoming more difficult, although in a lot of states it’s easier to um you know, another thing that comes to mind when, you know, you’re talking about the generations below the the the boomers not doing as well as the one before them. Um The FDA just yesterday recommended mental health screening at regular uh regular doctor visits, like an annual annual health health checkup for everybody under 65 And and they had been considering this policy that this recommendation is just a recommendation to the medical community from from for years before the pandemic. This is not, this is not pandemic-related recommendation. They had been considering this for years before the pandemic that there’s a lot of stress and anxiety among the population under 65 and 65 is basically the baby boomer cut off within a couple of years.

[00:43:59.55] spk_1:
And then, you know, as you noted, this was even before Covid that they’ve been advocating for this and now with Covid and the mental health issues that are sort of go along with not just the disease, but the isolation that many are experiencing and long Covid, which is sort of an underappreciated under recognized problem and disabilities maybe creating more disability, disabled americans than anything. Um, since you know, the World War two, I think would be the last one. It’s just, it’s mind blowing

[00:44:01.44] spk_0:
and I and I and all this does contribute to a decline in trust in all institutions and nonprofit. The nonprofit community is a major institution in the country. So you know, that’s, that’s how this is all related

[00:44:15.09] spk_1:
to what you

[00:44:21.48] spk_0:
and I are talking about. I want to make that connection explicit that anxiety among the population creates anxiety for nonprofits and, and and distrust and disbelief in nonprofit work. Whether that’s justified or not perception is reality.

[00:44:36.71] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree. tony

[00:44:40.74] spk_0:
All right. I don’t know. So we had, we had said one of the things we’re gonna talk about is what happens, what happens if this continues? I mean, I already painted a pretty dark cynical scenario. Um, is there anything more you want to say around? You know, what, what the implications are if the community doesn’t start to help itself?

[00:46:25.73] spk_1:
Well, maybe on a more micro looking basis, it just means for a charity, they’re gonna experience diminished fundraising. Not everybody gets Mackenzie scott, Jeff Bezos money. Right. Most of them are relying upon a pool of donors, um, many of which are aging, um, and may age out of their donor pool. Um, and shrinking again, middle class, shrinking, discretionary income for many people, meaning West donations. Um, we might see more direct giving to individuals as people are saying, well, I don’t trust charities overall. I’d rather just give to my friends who say, you know, somebody is in need as crowdfunding fight sites just continue to, to grow in importance and also in in power as well. Um, and that’s just gonna be to the detriment of, you know, beneficiaries of our charity. So again, in the micro level, we make less money, people trust us less. Our employee retention is less. Um, our donor pool is shrinking and we can help less people even as the need for our services increases. So that’s kind of the dark side look of it. Um, we can try to be the nonprofit that stands out and you know, is the trustworthy non profit from, from a public perception standpoint. Um, that’s good. But again, don’t see yourself in a silo lift yourself up with all the boats in the water and, and really try to strengthen the nonprofit sector where you can, and, and advocating on some of the laws that make things more fair, I think is a good start there

[00:46:41.97] spk_0:
advocating maybe there’s a way of partnering

[00:46:45.00] spk_1:
with other

[00:46:55.64] spk_0:
organizations, not, not in all in all things. I don’t mean a legal formal partnership, but you know, if, if there’s, if there’s a way of working together for an event or, or some kind of advocacy,

[00:47:03.61] spk_1:

[00:47:11.44] spk_0:
know, we’ve had shows on the values of that and how to do that. Um, so that everybody, you know it, so that it’s, it’s not seen as a, as a zero sum within your, within your community that if if if someone else, some other organizations benefiting, then you’re losing. You know, that’s not the way to look at,

[00:47:25.67] spk_1:

[00:47:26.47] spk_0:
at the world and and that not nonprofit support. We we all could be or a couple of couple of organizations together could be rising together.

[00:47:37.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ll add that the independent sector survey, the Edelman Data Intelligence survey that we mentioned at the start of the show also has some tips on building up trust within the sector. So it’s not all of dark outlook. It’s just encouraging people that the importance of this is very, very high. Um, so let’s go out and actually make things happen? So that, that dark outlook doesn’t happen

[00:48:05.70] spk_0:
within independent sector. Gene, what’s the, what’s the name of the you’re saying? Edelman data?

[00:48:11.03] spk_1:
Yeah, I think they contracted out with Edelman E D E L M A. And Data and intelligence and their third annual reports. This is an annual report is available on the independent sector website.

[00:48:26.66] spk_0:
Okay, thank you. Edelman E D E L M A N,

[00:48:30.68] spk_1:

[00:48:49.24] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Uh, you mentioned the five oh one C four’s a little bit, but there have been a couple in the news very recently, most recently the uh, Patagonia companies, uh, sort of evolution into a uh, a new nonprofit, a new a new five oh one C four. non profit the hold fast collective.

[00:51:57.05] spk_1:
Yeah. So the founder of Patagonia and his family member, they were the principal owners of Patagonia and they decided to give up ownership of the company, but you know, they gave it not to a charity, but to a 501 C four organization. Um, it’s called the social welfare organization and for listeners who aren’t maybe familiar with it, you probably are familiar with many five oh one C four organizations themselves, like the N. R. A. Planned parenthood, the A. C. L. U. Sierra Club. So these are advocacy organizations that have kind of charitable like purposes. Um, but our can engage in unlimited lobbying and can engage in election nearing or political campaign intervention? Supporting political candidates and political parties, as long as that’s not their primary activity or purpose. So this is sort of the source or one of the big sources of where dark money comes in tony that you mentioned with the Citizens United Decision before donor that wants to support a candidate but stay hidden from public view about their support of the Can rather than giving directly to the candidate, could give to a 501 C four organization and the C Four organization can get their money’s into the candidate. And the donor that is disclosed is the C Four organization, not the donor to the C Four organization. So that’s how you can create dark money. And with the Patagonia case, it’s very clear who the donor was. So we don’t expect that to be the dark money that we’re as leery of, but it’s still, you know, a huge gift which, you know, for somebody who believes in in in the environmental movement I think is a great gift. But news media miss reporting it or some news media are mis reporting it as kind of something that doesn’t get a tax benefit because a donor doesn’t get an income tax deduction for giving to a five oh one C Four organization the way they do if they give to a charity. Um but there are other tax exemptions that apply like a gift tax exemption or in a state tax exemption. So this gift is overall saving. Um uh mr Schwinn nerd um the owner and his family probably somewhere in the realm of $800 million in taxes. Um So it is not completely a no tax benefit transaction. Again this is not to disparage them for taking advantage of a system that allows for these gifts Um to go with with some tax benefits, but it’s not just the income tax deduction that matters in in donations there for for very wealthy people like billionaires. Um the gift and estate tax exemptions which can be 40%, right? So it can be very very high higher than income tax they matter. Um and so that’s something to be aware of that. Um this is a very wealthy person who gave up much of the ownership share, I guess all of his ownership shares to this 501 C4 organization, except really importantly 2% of the gift. Overall gift was given to a trust that’s not a nonprofit.

[00:52:14.55] spk_0:
Yeah those voting, those are the 2% of the voting that are the voting shares,

[00:52:58.58] spk_1:
right? So because they’re in control of that trust with with some close advisers um they have not given control out of Patagonia, right? They still can control Patagonia. Um And again they’re taking advantage of existing law what what it allows but it allows billionaires to not give up control of their company, get an $800 million tax benefit for giving or you know $3 billion Uh to a 501 C4 organization that could spend nearly half of it on endorsing political candidates. Um So it’s kind of an interesting tax system that that allows for that.

[00:53:18.19] spk_0:
And if if you consider that, you know supportive of uh of a liberal progressive cause because the whole fast collective the the new C4 is is devoted to uh the ill effects of climate change, you know, reversing climate change, impacting climate change. Uh So if you consider that of a left cause, then there’s an example on the right side with uh mr barr seed and the marble Freedom Trust. Another five oh one C four.

[00:53:44.39] spk_1:
Yeah. And that sea forces led by Leonard Leo who maybe the person most responsible for the changing of our Supreme Court and therefore the decisions on things like abortion might be largely attributed to mr Leo,

[00:53:56.21] spk_0:
fundraiser and activist and very well connected guy in conservative circles.

[00:56:20.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And used to be Executive vice president of the Federalist Society whose mission was to change the composition of the Supreme Court. So um I I don’t think that’s controversial and that’s just what their goal was. And they were very effective at achieving that goal. But this $1.6 billion kind of same thing. There there are some tax benefits that go along with it. There’s no income tax deduction. Um and mr uh c passed away. I think this was given after his death. But another big contribution to an organization led by somebody who has immense influence and now a huge war chest that can be used for political activities. Again, the primary activity cannot be political campaign intervention. Um, but some people believe, or many people believe that means 49% of the funds can be used for political campaign intervention. And that’s kind of the source of dark money. Although again in this case we do know where the donor came from. Um, so it’s not dark in that way in terms of hidden donors, but it’s still donations that didn’t go directly to the political candidate. It went through five oh one C four first, get the tax benefits for that, which his heirs, I guess would appreciate. Um, uh, and the impact of that again, is that? Well, in both cases, very wealthy people are able to keep control with people who they trust or their family members of their money to be used for political purposes. They can’t use it for themselves to, you know, to buy huge houses and boats, but they can use it for things that were very important to them. But that means for people like us and most of your listeners, tony is like, what influence do we have compared to that individual who gave billions of dollars to influence political elections. Um, and you know, what, you know, can we change our Supreme Court sort of composition the way that they’re able to do, probably not by ourselves. So it again is, is the reason why people go, hey, these are nonprofits that they’re using to do this. I don’t trust non profits, this is what they’re used for. And charities kind of get lumped in because the ordinary, you know, people, the lay person doesn’t know the difference between a five oh one C three and five A one C four organization.

[00:56:36.19] spk_0:
Yeah, and that’s right. And it’s it’s if it’s mentioned in a in in press coverage, you know, it’s mentioned in passing that it it’s it’s an organization that’s distinguished from from uh charities. But you know, it’s like, it’s like a sentence or two. You know, it’s it’s never it’s never a focal point. So your point is correct that people just lump them all together

[00:57:00.57] spk_1:
and flows through nonprofits and that’s why we shouldn’t trust nonprofit.

[00:57:04.97] spk_0:
So the wealthy control government and they control politics and they control business and media and and nonprofits.

[00:57:18.46] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s that’s what we, We’re finding more and more is the case, but we’re trying to change policies and change minds about this so that we can see that the impact of the 99.9% out there is actually even bigger than the impact that we mentioned about a few individuals. Um, it just has to be organized. Um, and non profits are way to do that.

[00:58:21.68] spk_0:
Well, that’s a, that’s a pretty good way to close. Probably we should have closed with what our community can do. But you know, you’re suffering the lackluster host. So uh you can rewind to that section and then uh fast forward and you can end with that if you want to. Um, but but jean, you know, always thank you, you know, sort of reality, but also wisdom and inspiration. And and not only um ethereal pedagogical inspiration, but you know, ideas that we can we can we can act on. So thank you. Thank you.

[00:58:24.63] spk_1:
Thank you Tony. And your closing statement is actually always the greatest ending. So, I’m looking forward to hearing it.

[00:59:39.16] spk_0:
Okay, All right, thank you jean. Next week. Let’s see what develops and why do I even say uh, next week if I don’t know what’s coming up next week, but we’re here we are. We’re talking about trust and part of that is transparency. So I’m being transparent that I don’t know what next week’s show is gonna be, I know what the 1 to 2 weeks from now is gonna be. We’re gonna have beth cancer and Allison fine talking about their new book, but I can’t promise that for next week because well, that would be a lie and that’s going to reach the trust because they’re not on next week. Next week. Uh, it’s up in the air, but trust me, it’ll be just that’s conclusory. Just trust me now, I hope you trust non profit radio I’ll find something good if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com responses by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four

[00:59:48.37] spk_1:
D. Just

[01:00:03.54] spk_0:
Like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Here it is, Jean, go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for November 14, 2014: Trust, Mistrust and Betrayal & Why The Rich Give

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Nina Chanpreet Kaur: Trust, Mistrust and Betrayal

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These by-products of our relationships with donors, bosses and peers can make your success or break your heart. Nina Chanpreet Kaur, organizational consultant and doctor of social problems, shares her research on trust.





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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week build driscoll he’s, a disaster non-profit executive, and he takes non-profit radio with him when he travels love that bill, you’ll find him in milton, massachusetts, or the twin cities in minnesota on twitter. He’s at b driscoll j r there must be an s r but he’s. Probably not on twitter. Congratulations, bill, and thank you very much for your support of non-profit radio. We’ve got a new online station joining us k s c r out of pomona, california welcome very good to have you with us and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of submarine dermatitis if i even heard rumors that you had missed today’s show trust, mistrust and betrayal the’s byproducts of our relationships with donors, bosses and peers could make your success or break your heart dahna chanpreet power core studies the issues around trust and why the rich give maria semple is back she’s, our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder she’ll walk us through the twenty fourteen us trust study of high net worth philanthropy on tony’s take two it’s amazing when charities come together and work together responsive by generosity siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks i am seed. They’re new york city event just this past weekend, and i’m very pleased that nina chanpreet core is with me in the studio. She’s, an organizational consultant and social psychologist by training doctor of social problems and educator her work sheds light on what underlies drives, motivates and manages effective change in the world. She was the founder of kitchen table community teaching cooking classes to understand how food can build trust across ethnicities and religions, nina lives for the tender moments of truth and compassion, clear seeing eyes, hands reaching out to help arms embracing in understanding. You can follow nina on twitter she’s at nina chanpreet nina chanpreet court welcome to the studio. Thank you so much for having me. Tony it’s. A big pleasure. Thank you. I love the you know the way you describe yourself as living for tender moments of truth and compassion. That’s very touching. Well, it’s, very important in the world we live in today, i think it’s difficult. To ah have the experience of trust. I mean, in many ways, there’s very little we can trust the ingredient labels on the food we eat and the information we’re getting from the media. It’s challenging to understand what’s really that’s not really what’s what we can trust andi, i think there’s a lot of wounded nous and i rolled around it interesting that you mentioned the first example you give his food labels well, always right, you’re you must read ingredient labels like i do, so i don’t try don’t i am one of those people going to bother? No, no, no, i’m very meticulous. I don’t trust any ingredient label myself. I’m writing a fiction i mean, michael short work of fiction, right? My my research on trust emerged out of my own personal experiences and in which i found myself not trusting anything or anyone and really having to examine that and understanding what it is like in an organizational system and what it is like internally as well, not trusting anyone or anything that that that that’s a cold place to be a lonely place. It’s a cold lonely i’m exaggerating, but but you understand you know we’re going to actually define i’m going to ask you later, you know, defined trust and betrayal and things, but i feel like i’m a person who trust at the outset before i even know somebody i sort of i trust until someone gives me a reason not to trust, um, i think i’m going down the wrong path. Well, seymour, about that okay, let’s, take a business interaction. I just on the strength of a phone call, i trust my intuition. Yeah, i’m going to use the word trust or rely on my intuition, and the person seems like a good person like they they they ah, can be. They will be someone who will follow through on their commitments, whatever commitments we’re talking about making together. And when they give me their word, i can rely on it. Um, someone you know and i draw these conclusions on the strength of maybe a ten minute phone call. Maybe i’ve never let’s use the example where lots of times i’ve never met the person face-to-face it’s. Just a phone call, and i feel that, uh, that i can i can count on them. I can rely on them. I can trust them. That’s just my my nature. Well, one of the parts about trust that i research was the unconscious elements of trust and what’s really going on underneath the surface. So while consciously we may say, oh, you know, i trust this person there’s always something else going on under the surface. And i think we do need to challenge the idealization of trust because buy-in doing the research that i kept breeding things that trust is so important. Trust is so important trust is so important, and mistrust is actually equally important i mean, scientific research and, you know, antibiotics and so many scientific inventions were based off of not trusting something and seeing something in the road saying, wait, let me let me rethink that. Do i really trust what i’m seeing? Let me let me study this right there’s so many inventions in the world, scientific and non scientific that were really premised on mistrusting or trying to look a little bit further. So the idea that trust is that simple or that it’s, the most important thing on dh is easy to achieve, i think it’s something that i challenge because i think it is more complex than that. Similarly, i think mistrust and betrayal can be equally important, if not more, in some cases. Okay, so something more going on? All right, i’m glad we have. Well, there’s always more going on. Isn’t there? Okay, i don’t know. I you think about these things and study them more than i do. You know, i gave you my my approach toward it. Let’s. Define some terms. So since you’re the researcher in this, what how do you define trust? Well, there’s it’s a challenging question to answer because i think it it’s so subjective. But i do think that trust is not it’s it’s, not some kind of stable, non changing experience. I think it has a sort of life of its own and is very subjective and is the product of conflict and collaboration and deep relationship building. Yeah. Excellent. I know you refer to it is a product or by product of relationships. Yeah, some of my earliest work experiences is a when i was in my twenties att that time, i was a teacher. We would sit down in these meetings and we were supposed to take on these very big tasks, and we’d sit there, and everyone was twiddling their thumbs, complaining about how nobody trusts anyone. Of course, that wasn’t the language that was being used, but it was really a cop out and a lack of accountability because we would have gotten there, we would have formed that trust had we been willing to dig into stuff that was very uncomfortable to confront our own incapacity and our own kind of heartbreak about our failure as teachers in a school system that is failing, and so our inability to do that or lack of accountability, which, you know, we were just kind of dancing around, and i’m sort of pretending, and i say we i mean, i was of course aware that this was happening, but unable to necessarily do something about it in a big way. So and i’ve seen this in another non-profits i currently work a teaching matters, which is a non-profit i’ve consulted other non-profit so i so i see this kind of expectation that we start with trust, but the truth is that we usually end with it. So what? Okay, i’m going to challenge myself then, since you’re challenging these notions what i’m calling trust maybe is naivete. Well, i have a child in the dark or something or so that’s. A very interesting association. I wouldn’t say naive a tae that that there’s there may be i mean, there’s always a judgment. I think when we use that word in it, i don’t know what it is for you. But i do think our our first experience of organizational life is in our family system. And so are first formative experiences around trust are really important to pay attention to because they have a rich information for how we currently experience trust and betrayal and the notions that we have in the associations that we have around that. So i do think thie i mean, not that it makes you a child, but i do think it’s important to look at that dimension of our relatedness around trust. Okay, this may be a conversation more for my therapist than then a special psychologist. Let’s see s o i’m going to presume that your definition of mistrust would be something similar. It’s certainly also a byproduct of relationships. And it was him. Or you would add about mistrust. Well, again, it it there’s there’s a different i guess the only way i can distinguish it is there’s a difference between mistrust and betrayal, i think, which is that i think trust and mistrust kind of live together. So if we’re if we think we have one underneath the surface, the mistrust is always there. If you think about any even personal relationships, you can’t have a professional ones many times we give trust, hoping that we won’t. We won’t have the experience of being betrayed or are having experience of mistrust so that there’s it’s always there and betrayal in particular is an incidents when agreements between two people, whether unconscious or not conscious, are our transgressed or broken or boundaries are really crossed on dh i mean and well, i guess there so i’m saying that there are so many other components to betrayal, but that would be a very basic way to look at it. Okay? Betrayal. Very harsh. That’s the word no eight years horse but but but that’s, the thing about the world we live in today’s, which is why does it have to be perceived so harshly? We have to go away for a couple minutes. Nina chanpreet corps. And i’m going to keep talking about the bite. These byproducts of your relationships, trust, mistrust and betrayal. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent let’s talk about your research, nina, how do you study these issues? Well, my, my, my approach to doing research is looking through a psychodynamic lens, so just to touch on what you said before about, is this a conversation more for my therapist and and and i and i think that that is something within non-profits the idea that well, we only have to deal with strategic plans and theories of change and how we run meetings and not deal with the softer aspects, the reality, the felt experience between people. And so i about a year ago, i went to a group relations conference, which is it’s, an experiential unconference looking at the group dynamic systems, dynamics, organizational dynamics, and i stumbled upon the topic of trust and betrayal that week, it was a week long conference, and it was a very powerful experience, one of the members on staff there i was dr jim krantz, and he has done a lot of research also about trust and betrayal and how leaders often times have to make very tough decisions and betray in the process of managing organizations and it doesn’t it doesn’t, and you’re right. I mean, when you said betrayal is harsh, it’s true, it it’s a very painful experience. I mean, i don’t mean to take away from the felt experience that can be debilitating in the face of betrayal, but but but but our ways of thinking about trust and betrayal is really what i researched and in the context of school. So i have i mentioned before, i am a consultant teaching matters, and i’ve worked for the new york city department education for the last ten years, and trust and betrayal are just the most the biggest issues happening in schools today because there are so many changes, and those changes aren’t being built well managed, and as a result, i was looking in these organizational systems, i working in the schools and seeing that the ideas about trust and betrayal, or were very for me a little bit strange because change itself for many teachers and for many even administrators was a form of betrayal, just just the fact of so many changes happening was produced and invoked a sense of betrayal, not probably not only among teachers, but among students, also parents, i looked mostly at the staff and what we’re looking at. We we’re looking at a school system that fundamentally is not meeting the needs of the student. And so what i research was, why is this happening? Why do we have a system? And by looking at a couple of schools this case, studies in which the needs of the children are being met and what i found was that there is a regression happening, there’s this idea that we be able to trust or or that change never happens this agreement within the staff systems of schools, and this expectation around things either not changing or being ableto have a certain level of comfort, right right now in school, so many things are being challenged, the contract, the pay scale, the curriculum, the standards. I mean, almost everything in a school right now is changing. But basically nothing has stayed the same. And so what i wanted to understand is, why have we why do why does that expectation exist? That nothing changed on my hypothesis about in what i research? Was that the expectation that there be some kind of idealized trust that doesn’t change is a form of regressed thinking in a way in and a way in which and when i say regression, what i mean is that the needs of the children are being met, but rather the needs of the staffer put first and that’s what that’s what’s going on, and it doesn’t mean i’m not trying to say teacher would be listening. This alarm bells might be going on. I’m not trying to say the needs of the staff are not important to the needs of the adults are not important, but the needs of the children are not coming first on di didn’t you know it’s interesting, i didn’t look at the experience of trust between teacher and student that is a more difficult thing toe look at just in terms of the, um i guess just the logistics in terms of running a study like that, so my research was both quantitative and qualitative, and i was looking at it from a particular psychodynamic lens, so i hope that gives you a little bit of context. Well, one of the other things i’ll say is that a couple of years ago i had a leadership mentor. Who said to me, you know the world is changing so quickly, you really do need to know yourself and have a firm sense of yourself. Because when things change, you don’t also want to be falling apart in the middle of it. And around the time when i started this research, something in my life happened that really challenged me and challenge my notions of myself and trust and other people on dh in it and i it really required me to have that strength. And so one of the one of the things whenever, whenever i talk about my research, it’s impossible also not to talk about what i personally went through to be able to learn and see more clearly in my research, right there was there was a personal journey there. So you want to expand on what the journey was in a minute or two? Well, you said a little bit about it before i mean, it is t now there was a personal journey, and then, well, not sure. Well, what i’ll say about it is just that i, like i had mentioned before, beginning when we were first talking was that i was looking at myself, kind of putting myself in a p tradition, noticing that i don’t trust really anything, including ingredient labels, which are very black and white and s o it was just sort of, you know, looking more carefully at my own internal and interest psychic world around trust and betrayal, and trying to understand what was going on for me, and it became very informative for how it was then seeing the world around me. Where do you think this expectation comes from? That that there won’t be changed and that things will remain constant? Well, i think it i think it comes from, um it come, it comes from living in a world in which our organizational systems, and in which our school systems are are not are not dealing with the what i will say unconscious or underneath the surface elements of things, and so eh? So i think when we are more conscious of our thoughts, beliefs and actions it’s very simple to to challenge that notion. But when we’re not doing that, it’s just it’s, it’s, it’s very easy to fall into that belief, it’s very counterintuitive because there is so much change day to day from from employment situation’s toa technology, tio new stop signs. And in new york city the new speed limit this week from thirty to twenty five there is so much change around us, but so the expectation seems really exactly it’s irrational. This is so this is it. So when we think about when i say unconscious is exactly what i’m referring to is the irrationality, and we and and this is something i learned from jim krantz, which is that we are really living in a myth of rationality in the world, when in fact, there’s a whole lot of irrationality, that’s running our organisations in our systems and particularly i would say, buy-in in startups non-profits where people who are running them not that this oh my god, it’s, just so much irrationality happening in corporations, but non-profits and social enterprises are very interesting to look at because they have less funding to invest in some of these other types of mechanisms that they may need in their organizations. It’s kind of you know what i experience a non-profits is sort of like you have to be bare bones, right? You can’t always invest in these other aspects of organizational life that are so critical and and what i’m referring to is this approach of looking at the irrationality and an organizational system and looking at group dynamics and really grasping it. So how are we going toe navigate through our relationships, understanding that there’s going to be disappointment and frustration and also elation? Yeah, i think what you just said is the first artist is having that expectation and and knowing with open eyes and an open mind that, you know, there will be mistrust, there will be betrayal. And why do i have this idealization that that might happen? Let me look at that and what’s going on with me that i’m not seeing the reality of what could potentially happen. I mean, i think that’s the first start, but the other piece of it is tio when we think about working and living in an organizational system is it is trying teo, to really know oneself to really reflect no, your triggers know your motivator is no what’s really important to you and to be able to gauge that about other people and see the connection between the individual, the group, the organization the system, the world around us, i mean, these these these connections are very important to make, and when we’re not making them, we’re really missing a big part of our a big piece of relationship building, and we may not be able to see what is necessary to see to build that trust so i don’t have hokey ideas about okay, sit around in a group and tell the truth for a while, and then then you’ve got trust me. I there’s so many people are very quick to sell you ideas that would form let’s. Go on a group retreat and we’re walking on hot coals. I think therefore i think that trustee or reform back, i hope it’s okay for me to say this, but i think that’s bullshit. So i know we’ve had worse, i think it’s i think it’s i think it’s much more complex. I think it depends on the type of organization, the history, the memory of that organization. How long it’s been around the dynamics of turnover in that group? There’s? Just so many things to think about. And when you’re on the funder the managerial end of things you you know leaders have to make decisions all the time, whether they’re conscious of it or not, that they that they are betraying our may need to betray in the service of the larger task of the company and the larger well being of the mission of the work. And i mean, i think a lot of funders don’t don’t know the quality of of the dynamics within systems and organizations, and if there’s one thing i could recommend, it would be i mean, i’m not in the business of giving advice, but i really do think the experience i went through was invaluable and going to a group relations conference, and particularly for funders and the managers and leaders of organizations to be ableto have that experience it’s very eye opening. So and there is one coming up in our area in january it sze called authority roll on accountability and organizations and it’s happening january fourteenth eighteenth it’s a residential experience experiential conference in the taba stock tradition. And dr jim krantz is the director where it’s andover, massachusetts so it’s not far from here, and i have the name of it again its authority um roll an accountability authority. Role and accountable the website is leadership twenty fifteen dahna oregon. So we’ll post it, you know, we’ll post it when you were so sure the link with you. Yeah, we put in the takeaways. Paige there’s a lot of variables that go into power and authority in relationships, and i think those air relevant in around these topics, the variables on something of whose wealthier who’s got more experience, those the ones that come to mind and i’m thinking, you know, i’m thinking like, fundraiser donor-centric gree more tony, i mean, i think we we again living under this either this myth of rationality, this this idea that we have leadership figured out we don’t you know, we would continually need to revisit these basic issues of authority roll power. You know, these very basic things that play into how we relate to one another and how our organizational systems function as a result of that. And i think that, you know, trust is not in itself it’s sort of is just one thing, but it’s, everything around it that either creates that air destroys it. It’s a very elusive thanks, yeah, little more book. Well, like when we’re talking about authority and power and i mentioned before accountability, you know, we were talking about the group dynamics. These things are kind of the the the world of the organizational life and that’s going to determine whether or not they the system’s ableto hold trust and individuals can form bonds of trust or not, and in my experience and this is something that’s challenging for me to even say, but in some of the school’s right work, it’s just buy-in what i found is sometimes it’s just not possible it’s not possible to form trust, and it can take a very long time. And it’s it’s, the reason why i have a hard time saying it is because it makes me feel debilitated or i’m like, how do we live in a world where it’s just at times not possible and many people may challenge me on that. But from what i felt and experienced, there are times when it’s just not possible, and it doesn’t mean that there’s no solution, but it can take it can take an organization where there is a significant trauma or an incident decades to rebuild e i mean it’s on and it goes much better when we’re looking at what we’re just talking about, we’re looking at these dynamics and we’re working on them and we were we continually see trust is a byproduct instead of having the expectation that it be there in order for us to do the work, we’re always going to be working under a kind of discomfort and a sense of constant change that that may not be ideal, but but we have to work wonder it to get to the trust we’re always working in a state of discomfort you’re saying i think so to some extent, i mean, i mean, when in my own work, you know, i love what i do. I really love the work i’ve done in schools over the last decade, and it brings me a lot of pleasure, but that, but but that feeling of pleasure is always there with a lot, with a mixed, other set of emotions around discomfort, uncertainty, fear, you know, questioning myself, questioning other people on dh in fact, what’s interesting so year, so a year since i started well, over a year now since i started doing that research what i have discovered in myself is, i trust myself more, but i continue to question myself, and i continue to reflect, and that has been, i think, a guiding light for me and being able to navigate so much complexity. Yeah, good, yeah. Lorts there aren’t probably enough very many people always questioning, always asking these bigger questions the way the way you’re going through not only your research but your life. It sounds like you, and the reason why i figured out how to do it is because i’ve met many people along the way who opened the door for me or open my eyes to something that said, hey, pay attention to this or, you know it it’s so much of my success is based on the success of other people who i have many form bonds of trust with, but but but but nothing and nothing in my life has ever remained constant or consistent, and so perhaps because i’ve had that experience just even from my childhood to today, it has given me a bit of a different perspective. What is it that you love about the work that you’re doing? Whether it’s consulting the research, what do? Well, i’m really driven by you know what? What you mentioned in the introduction, which is, which is how do you effectively impact change? And i’m i’m also driven by buy-in finding ways to continuously improve what we’re doing that so that’s my m o that’s what i really want to see in the world and so it just gives me great pleasure to be able to work with people and work and organizations where i can help them do that. And i can be part of that experience and figure figure something out for the wide world. So a lot of what i’m doing in schools, the reason i do the research is so i can look at it and take it back and say, okay, wait here. I found something this could apply across, right the applied research. This could apply somewhere else and making that making that connection, leveraging that change is really important to me. Um, you know, it comes from it comes really from my mother and the way that i was raised and she was very aware of global issues and whether or not i should have known what i knew about the world at the ages that i did is another issue, but just just having from her and seeing from her what’s happening in the world and wanting to understand kind of in this title that i wear the doctor of social problems, what’s going on and how you solve it. It is really what gives me a lot of pleasure, so i’m glad you credited your mom at the end. Well, of course, we have to leave it there, ok. Nina chanpreet corps last name spelled k es. You are. You’ll find her on twitter at nina chanpreet, thank you so much for having me, tony. My pleasure. I’m glad you know i’m glad you’re with me. Thank you very much. Generosity siri’s. They host five k runs and walks last sunday. I am seed, their generosity and why see, event over three hundred runners from nine charities came together in riverside park. They were from the center for urban community services. Creative artworks engender health, forrest, dale and other non-profits. One of them could have hosted their own event. They don’t have enough runners, but when the community comes together, then they can do incredible things together, raising over one hundred fifty thousand dollars for these nine organizations. And the fund-raising actually continues for another two weeks, so they’re not done. Generosity. Siri’s, dave lind, he’s the ceo. You can talk to him. Tell him that you came from non-profit radio he’s at seven one eight five o six. Nine triple seven or generosity siri’s, dot com. They have events coming up in new jersey, miami and philadelphia. I shot this week’s video in riverside park at generosity and y c because i was really moved by the great success of these nine charities coming together like i just said, they none of them could do it on their own. But coming together such enormous synergy and there’s just ah, terrific lesson about collaboration, whether it’s with your colleagues or other organizations, this week’s video is that tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday fourteenth of november forty fifth show of this year. Maria simple. You know maria simple she’s, the prospect finder she’s a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her website is the prospect finder dot com and her book is panning for gold. Find your best donorsearch prospects now she’s our doi end of dirt, cheap and free. You can follow maria on twitter at maria simple. Welcome back, maria simple. Hello there. How are you today? I’m doing very well. How are you? Just fine, thank you. Excellent. We’ve got the pleasantries out of the way. What’s what’s this high net worth study all about that you want to talk about? So i had an opportunity to hear about the results of the most recent high network study that was undertaken by us trusted it’s actually a partnership between us trust and the indiana university lily family school of philanthropy, and they do this study every other year. And i was attending a conference on friday for a f p in west chester, and i heard david radcliffe speak he’s, one of the managing director’s um, over at us trust, and so i thought it would make for some very interesting conversation because, of course, non-profits were always interested in knowing what what are the high net worth individuals in our communities thinking about as it relates to philanthropy in general, but about how we as organizations operate on dh? How can we leverage the results of this study to sort of improve or tweak what we’re doing is non-profit so it was very intriguing to me, and so as i was listening to him, speak and then afterward went in on the web and sought out the study itself. Um, i was thinking of this through the lens of a non-profit and what should they be gleaning from these reports? We should just cut you out and brought david on well, let’s, bring the principal in here. Well, well, you know what that would probably make for conversation, you know, how you know? Absolutely, but i think but, you know, i’m looking at it fromthe lens of if i were well, obviously, as a prospect researcher, i was very interested in this, right? So i’m always interested in what is going on in the psyche of the high net worth individual, but also through the lens, as i said of a non-profit executive or a non-profit boardmember what do you need to be keeping in mind as you’re approaching or thinking about approaching high net worth individuals for some major gift to really propel your organization’s forward? Important, i think, to recognize that the survey is based on self reported activity and thoughts around why we give why i give so there’s always that, you know, sampling bias. I’m not sure if that’s the right phrase, but there’s always a bias around self reported results versus something that’s observation all yeah, but what? You know, what was interesting was they really made sure that they tried to randomly sample across the entire united states on dh so in the end they’re in there. I understand. Just still self reported data. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Itself reported data and it has to do with their sentiments about they’re giving in the year twenty thirteen. So overall, i will say that i thought things came out to be pretty positive from the report. Things do seem to be on an upswing. So that was the overarching from me. Good news that i got out of the executive summary of the study. I did see that ninety eight percent of high net worth. And by the way, we should define our terms to they define high net worth as having a minimum of a million dollars net worth, excluding you home value on and having on an annual income of two hundred thousand dollars or more, right, that’s their definition of high net worth. All right, i saw that ninety eight percent of the high net worth individuals donate. Yes, yes. So that was that was indeed very good news as well as their average dollar amount has gone up. Um, since since the last study was done, so in two thousand eleven, their average gift was at fifty three thousand. Five hundred nineteen dollars and it’s actually increased twenty eight percent. It’s now up to sixty eight thousand five hundred eighty dollars. So again, good positive news. That’s probably reflecting our improved economy from two years ago. Right? Sort of expect that. But it is very it’s. Good news. Encouraging hyre encouraging also for the future that a lot of people think eighty five percent expect to give the same or mohr this year. Yes, yes, very ous. They look forward to what do they plan to do in the future? The overwhelming number of people said they planned to keep it at same levels or increased levels. So that was good to know that in their psyche, their not thinking about pulling back. Ah, they also think that non-profits are sort of a great solution to many of the problems and issues that we face in our community. So they do feel that they have a great deal of trust in the nonprofit sector to really harness and tackle some of the big issues that are going on right now. Okay, that you’re right. That’s also encouraging. What else you see in there? Well, i liked the fact that just over seventy eight percent of them gave unrestricted e-giving so that to me says as a non-profit as you’re thinking about your programs and so forth and how you know when you’re approaching foundations or corporations, and they want to give to some very specific programming as you’re approaching a non-profit i’m sorry, an individual their psyche is a little different, they don’t mind giving toe unrestricted e-giving they totally get the fact that you’ve got to keep the lights on and pay salaries, et cetera, so that takeaway was don’t forget to ask for that general operating support. Yeah, that is pretty startling. It’s that’s ah, considerably hyre number than i would have thought. But, you know, my insights could be completely off base as well, but that was yeah, pretty revealing to me that that high proportion of unrestricted giving also very encouraging. What did you say that? What did you say? The percentage was of unrestricted gift. Uh, the statistic that david shared with us with seventy eight point two percent okay, gave unrestricted among friends. We can call it seventy eight percent. Okay, um, i saw that volunteers give more. That seems intuitive if you’re spending time with the organization, you’re you’re more apt to give more to them than if you’re a non volunteer. That’s, right? Absolutely. So another takeaway, then, for a non-profit is teo not be afraid to first approach on high net worth individual and ask them for a gift of their time, as opposed to outright asking for a gift of cash? Because it is pretty darn likely. I think that if you can get them engaged at a very deep and committed level, it will probably stand to reason that the money will also follow what else you got there. So another interesting piece for me was that you have to really think about engaging both spouses so as you’re thinking about your approach to them, if they’re married, um, think about having the conversation with both people don’t leave the spouses out of the conversations around major gift because they are not making these decisions in a vacuum, and the spouse does appreciate very much being involved in that conversation on dh taking their overall interests and ideas toe heart. So they really wanna have that that level of, you know, involvement. So that would be a big takeaway i thought was make sure you’re not just talking to one person if they’re married, make sure both are at the table for the conversations. You know what i see that maria playing out badly often is at events, not where there’s an ask being being made the way you’re describing, but the, uh i see so often people working for the for the organization are talking to the predominant donor in the in the couple, whether it’s, the wife or the husband and sort of minimising or excluding fromthe conversation, the other person it’s really offensive, but i see that a lot. And so how does the how does the other person feel they feel marginalized? They they feeling like the organization thinks they’re insignificant, and i think that has a lot of repercussions. Yeah, you know what, you’re absolutely right. I’ve noticed the same thing and, you know, one way around that for an organisation is just to be a little bit more strategic, you know, in deciding all right, you know, in advance who’s going to be an attending a an event, so why not make sure that you leverage your board and keep volunteers that will be at this event to have them understand the key couples that will be there so that if a conversation is happening, you know, with, say, as you called it, the predominant donor and make sure that somebody else is, you know, trying to at least engage the other person in the conversation so that there emotions are taken into account well, just to be a decent person, you know, talk to talk, to both, talk to both the guys or the both the women or the guy in the women, you know, talk to everybody, don’t you know, just ah, yeah, i think we need a lot. More sensitivity to the fact that it’s not, you know, it’s, not all about just who gives and who volunteers and the other person we should ignore. I see that i see a lot, ok, but this was one of the other kind of along those, you know, staying on that line for a minute. One of the other interesting pieces that came out of that was that as i said, you know, you you want to make sure you’re taking both people into account. But then one piece of this study said that women are more likely to be the sole decision makers nearly three times as many women as men. Twenty percent versus seven percent are the sole decision maker. So and i’m pretty sure that us trust has also done a study in the past around women and philanthropy, so that might be something interesting to take a closer look at as well. But don’t forget to talk to the woman in the couple, that is for certain. Yes, if the if the guy is the predominant donor. But talk tio, talk to the whole family, you know? I mean, just be just just talk to people. Be decent. That’s all yeah. Okay, um, i thought it was interesting some of the breakdowns of why people give i like that there’s a very good chart about personal motivations for giving. Yes, you’re right. And i don’t have that one in front of the thing that stood out was that altruism. I was ranked highest and something that you would expect to rank high did not, which was the tax benefits ranked almost close to the bottom. So you’re a cynic you would you expected text to rank? I see i didn’t, but i work in plant giving, and i know that taxes don’t motivate most most people, but you’re okay, your little, your little more cold hearted than i am that’s. Interesting? No, i just i think i would have expected from the study that a tax incentive would have been ranking higher than it did on the overall results have been surprised to see how low it ranked it was, it was one third actually, to be exact, thirty four percent said that receiving a tax benefit motivates them to give and what you mentioned the altruism, personal satisfaction rank very high, seventy three percent said personal satisfaction. And when you believe that your gift can make a difference, that was comparable seventy four percent, a lot of a lot of altruism, you’re right. What else was interesting to you? I thought it was interesting to see why wealthy donors actually stopped e-giving so when they were asked why why they had stopped supporting an organization, they said that receiving solicitations to frequently or being asked for an inappropriate amount. Forty two percent of the people said that was the reason why they stopped. Thirty five percent said they had you there change their philanthropic focus or decided to support other causes. But i thought it was very interesting. And so, you know, that just goes to really reiterate why, as a researcher, you need to think about what is that very targeted? Ask? We can make let’s ask less less frequently, perhaps, but let’s make that ass very much tied to what that family wants to be able to do in terms of making a deep impact. Impact was also a word that that was throughout this study, i thought, because fifty over three fifty three percent of the people said that they monitor or evaluate the impact of their charitable gift. So if you can really tie closely together, i think how often you ask how much you’re asking for and then clearly demonstrating and stewarding that gift. Well, i think that’s gonna have good results. We have to go away for a couple of minutes. When we come back, maria and i will keep talking about the us trust high net worth study. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and a a me levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation, top trends and sound advice that’s tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m lawrence paige, no knee author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. I still wish lawrence would pronounce his name panjwani sounds so much nicer than paige an oni i don’t know if i told him that when he was on. I don’t think i did. I think it only said it behind his back on the ship, but nobody listens to this show, so it doesn’t make a difference. All right, maria sample. What else was interesting in there, too? I have a few things, but let’s throw to you. What did you find? What else? Well, i did not see this printed anywhere in the report, but one of the things that david said at the conference was he really encouraged the non-profits to have a very succinct one page document about the organization with the legal name spelled correctly so that they can pass this document along to their attorneys for consideration in wills and bequests. So i thought you would like that tip in particular, and i modify it. One piece i would include. Besides, the legal name is the federal tax i d. Number yes. I like gross amounts of precision. Yeah, yeah. He said that, you know, make it as absolutely clear, it’s possible? Because, you know, and i’m sure you have seen in your work problems can arise if things are not properly spelled out. So i thought that was a really good tip that he shared with the audience. There’s another reason for doing it. And that is to make it easy for people to. And i’m sure this is what david thinking is they david is thinking easy to give to the organization by including it in your will. Your life insurance, maybe some other beneficiary designation document without having to go to the organization to ask what’s your legal name. What? Your tax? I d number what’s your address, you know, so just making that ah, easy process for donors. Exactly. On dh that’s. Why he wanted it to be. You know what? Go thanked one page. I thought it was interesting where the dollars are going. The high net worth dollars mostly to education. Just mostly education. Yes, they place a very high ranking on education. And that percentage did grow as well. From twenty eleven to twenty thirteen so they did feel that that was a key policy priority on dh. There were, you know, right behind that where poverty, health care and the environment. Yeah. Now that’s ah, beneath education that’s where this diverges from what atlas of giving and giving, yusa would would say, is the next most popular e-giving which is religion in the no studies. But here religion was number five durney beneath beneath like you’re saying social social services, basic needs beneath arts and beneath health. Then came religion. Yeah. And it could very well be because of the population, the demographics of the population that was actually being surveyed here. So, you know, while atlas of giving and giving us a look more broadly across all income levels since this was focusing so specifically on that hyre network population, you can see that you know what? That level things air skewed a little bit differently. Well, they’re coming again. They can afford to buy themselves into the afterlife. They don’t have to give to charities to get there. Maybe that’s it, i think, to the benefit of other non-profits other other terrible missions. What else you got there? Well, you know they’re clear expectations that they have set out for the non-profits and again, you know, comes back to two to measuring impact. I can’t stress enough how much i thought as david was speaking, then i subsequently went and read the executive summary how non-profits really need teo get very clear, um, about stewardship so important, i mean, i know that i’m here to talk about prospect research, you know, that feeds into getting the gift, but then keeping those people engaged once you’ve got them engaged with your organization toe, let them slip away because you’re either asking too frequently or ass skiing for not the right amounts or you’re not just simply telling your stories about keeping them engaged is just such a huge missed opportunity. How did how did they gauge that from this study? Well, they were they were talking about their expectations and how they expect to be having there is the impact of their gifts, how they monitor their giving, so a lot of them are actually measuring the impact they’re giving by directly engaging with the organization at eighty percent of the people are so again, it goes back to that asking them t be volunteering with you stay as close to possible with the mission of the organization so that they’re able to continue seeing the impact that you’re doing so don’t only demonstrate that impact through letters and and email and social media, but make sure that you’re engaging them to really have direct contact with the organization on dh reporting on impact for those that want that reporting? Absolutely yeah, i mean, there are going to be that the people who really want to see it in, you know, in that number’s format, you, they want to see the reports and so forth and that’s great, you’ve got to do that. You’ve got to do those outcome measurements and so forth, however, at that high net worth level, if you can keep them engaged as well through volunteerism. It’s going to bode very well going forward for you. Okay, we have just about a minute left. What what’s a final point you’d like to make again having that one page document don’t ignore thie, you know, because a couple aa in its entirety a cz decision makers understanding what motivates them, keeping them engaged with your organization, getting them to volunteer more often on dh asking for appropriate amounts so that does involve prospect research. It involves understanding where they’ve given what other levels and where you know what motivates them. What is it that they want to give to within your organization? She’s, our regular contributor in prospect research and she’s the prospect finder. You’ll find maria simple at the prospect finder dot com and on twitter at marie. A simple thank you so much, maria. Thank you. Real pleasure to have you back. Thank you. Next week got mohr informative interviews coming from fund-raising day. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it at tony martignetti dot com generosity siri’s good things happen when small charities work together. Seven one eight five o six. Nine triple seven or generosity siri’s dot com our creative producer was clear meyerhoff sam liebowitz is on the board as the line producer shows social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules this music is by scott stein you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Sorry, i couldn’t do live listener love pre recorded this week. But i love our live listeners and podcast pleasantries as well. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is, we’re here that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for October 5, 2012: Friends From Events & Get Engaged 1

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Listen live or archive:

Tony’s Guests:

Andrea Nierenberg
Andrea Nierenberg: Friends From Events

Andrea Nierenberg, president of Nierenberg Consulting Group, talks you through her friendly steps for meeting more people at events of any kind, and building a real relationships with them. It’s remarkably simple.

This segment with Andrea has a survey. Please take a moment to answer three quick questions. You’ll find it below. Thank you! If you could also share it with other nonprofit professionals, I would appreciate it.

Amy Sample Ward
Amy Sample Ward: Get Engaged I

Amy Sample Ward, our social media scientist, kicks off her new status as contributor. This month is Part I of a series on real engagement and building trust through the social networks. She’s membership director for Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN) and blogs for Stanford Social Innovation Review.


Create your free online surveys with SurveyMonkey, the world’s leading questionnaire tool.

Here is a link to the survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/6ZPZGM5

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If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Hyre hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host it’s october fifth, two thousand twelve oh, i hope you’re with me last week. Yes, i do simply i hope you were here because last week was the law of attraction to attract major gift prospects and potential board members, you have to put your best foot forward to get what you’re seeking. Melanie schnoll begun is managing director at morgan stanley private wealth management remember, she helps her ultra high net worth clients make charitable gifts and get on boards, and she had practical and valuable advice that applies to any charity soliciting a major gift or recruiting a boardmember also private benefits not dirty but bad. We’re not talking friends with benefits. These air the rules against private and your mint excess benefit transactions and private benefit generally these rules keep your charity operating for the public good. Emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group is our monthly legal contributor and she explained all those rules this week. Friends from from events andrea nierenberg, president of nierenberg consulting group, talks you through her friendly steps for meeting more people at events of any kind and building a real relationship with them. It’s. Remarkably simple advice and get engaged. One amy sample ward, our social media scientist, kicks off. Her new status as contributor. This month is part one of a series on riel engagement and building trust through online social networks. She’s, membership director for non-profit technology network and ten, and she blog’s for stanford social innovation review. Are you on twitter at this moment? If you are, then you should be following us on the hashtag non-profit radio on tony’s. Take two in between the guests, perseverance, that’s, what i blogged this week and that’s what i’ll talk about at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour. Right now, we take a break. When we returned, i’ll be joined by andrea nirenberg, and we will talk about friends from events. Stay with me, co-branding dick, dick tooting, getting ding, ding, ding, ding. You’re listening to the talking alternative network duitz e-giving. Nothing. Good joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot or or a nj dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten am on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz lorts durney yeah, welcome back. We’re always talking about big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, and today is no exception to that. In the studio with me now is andrea nierenberg she’s, author of several books, and i’ll ask her to name a couple of those titles in a few moments. She’s, president of nierenberg consulting group, which you’ll find at nierenberg group dot com you’ll find her name is spelled and i e r e n b e r g nierenberg group dot com, and i’m very pleased that her work and her expertise brings her to the studio and the show. Andrea welcome. Thank you so much, tony it’s great to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you i’m glad you’re with us. Thank you were talking about friends from events. People get a little intimidated at events what’s what’s up. People do because they think that when they go to any kind of an event that they have to get something and i always say before you go, set a goal in your mind that you’re curious, you’re going to go to meet a couple of new people, learn about them, and i always say when i talk about networking, the opposite of networking is not working that every time you meet someone it’s an opportunity to learn from them, be a resource or give something first, if you go with that sort of premise, it’s fun, all right? And we’ll go into detail on each of those. You know, you have a lot of advice around those, but but this is potentially walking into a room full of strangers or mostly strangers. I mean, if i only know two or three a handful of people out of the room, i might not see those people it’s intimidating. It might be, but you could do your research before you go and that’s something that we all have available right now. You can go online, you can see a little bit about the organization you can see about the event that’s going to be coming up, even a social event on a lot of times, i’ll just, you know, connect with the person who’s giving the party or whatever just to learn a little bit about that. So for something it’s a business related, i say, get in touch with the greeter or the organizer before. The event or after you’ve done some homework so you make an introduction b e mail or call them, i’ll say, i’m going to be coming and you know, i don’t really know anyone there. What advice might you have? People are shocked when people do that, then do something really important. Send a note after you’ve spoken to the person or connected with them online it’s that given you some feedback, a hand written note just to say, i’m really looking forward, all right, and we’re goingto that kind of detail. I pulled listeners before the show, and we did have low survey response this week, so maybe less reliable than usual. But one of the questions i asked was, do you prepare before attending your charities social events, for instance, who you’d like to meet, research those people and think about talking points with people? And eighty percent of the people said yes, and twenty percent said, no, they do not. So for the eighty percent will have advice. We will put a finer point on that, and for the other twenty percent, we’ll get you up to speed. Let’s, say a little more about the researcher and how first, how are we going to find out who’s going to be there? Well, sometimes you can go right online and you can see who the board of directors are if there’s a speaker who the speaker is, you can see people that have been other events that they’ve had, and again, you may not get a guest list for that particular evening or that day, but at least you’ve got some people. And again, you may not meet those particular people, but at least if you do, you have the opportunity to go to google or to go to their site or the link dan or anything to find out a little bit about them. So if you do have the opportunity to meet them there, you have some talking points are but there are other people that you could meet that you don’t have. I did the research on. Okay, andi, if this is your own charities event, you might be a fundraiser or an executive director for a boardmember going to an event, then you definitely can get a copy of the certainly i just i’m so excited about this new friends of events, i threw the microphone across the across the table, but i’m back don’t worry on dunaj un injured as well. So then, if you’re one of those people and it’s easy that you definitely should get a list of all the attendees and go through it. It’s very easy and, you know, especially if you say, you know, i really love to meet these people and connect with them on and differentiate yourself. I always say also go to google alerts because any time that somebody has been in the media or the press or anything, you can get some information and you’ll get it like in a low. So you want to set up a google alerts for someone. Now, if this is a big event, you would probably wouldn’t set it up for all the all the hundreds of people who are coming for your key people that really happened. They have that all the time for your key people, because it’s it’s something that’s ongoing because you’re just not going to go to the event, meet them and that’s it. You want to build a relationship? That’s the whole idea. And also, you don’t want to stop the people. I mean, this is this is just getting a zai say to some people gathering intelligence and information, you’re just pulling in. So you have knowledge. When you meet somebody, you have a very short window of time to make a first impression. Okay, understand? So clearly our research is part of our goal setting. When this is all subsumed, i guess in having a goal for the afternoon or the evening. Absolutely. I want to send some live listener love out tio new bern, north carolina and a story of new york that’s queen’s write stories. Queens. Of course. I knew that i used to live in forest hills, queens on dh. This may be a popular time in the story of two because it’s beer, it’s octoberfest and a story of new york happens to be known for its beer gardens. So welcome a story. Welcome. New bern, north carolina. Live listener love out to out to you that’s. Nice, of course. Well, did you expect other one that no, in fact, i’m going to be in a story tomorrow. So that’s what? Okay, cool. You thought i was? A crash host? No etiquette. Okay, that you’re great. Well, don’t get carried away. But you thought it would be okay. Okay, we’ll be fine. Um with just a minute left or so before our first break. What else should we be thinking about when we when we know who these people are that we want to talk about what we want to talk to at that event position you’re, you know, your introduction, something that’s kapin pool to them and something that you could get your point across also, but something very short, brief focus on the other person, don’t focus on herself, which a lot of times people do say something to that person that when you walk up to them, is something that you admire about them. You’ve heard them speak. You’ve read something about their work, something like that and then put out your hand and introduce yourself. Take the initiative, tying your research that you did to the opening a couple lines. We’re all right. We’re gonna take this break and when we return, of course andrea nierenberg stays with me, and i hope you do, too. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s, time for action. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower. We’ll discuss what you’re born, you society, politics, business, it’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about so gain special access to the ivory tower? Listen to me, larry. Sure you’re neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower radio, dot com e every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven it will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back, andrea nirenberg is here and we’re talking about friends from events. What is thea the next step after you or you want people to be confident? Let’s? Take that and you want to put my hand out on dh introduced myself, right? I say you have to have your intangible tool kit with you and your tangible tool kit. Okay, what your intent? Intangible you’ve done your research, you’ve set a goal for the event. You’ve also thought about your appearance. You thought about the fact that when you walk into the room, you’re going to smile and research tells us that most people do not smile when they walk into a room, and when you smile and you walk in, first of all, you become more confident you feel more confident internally, you’re approachable, and it also is something that most people aren’t always doing there exactly. So watch the next time you walk into an event. Also, think about what you’re going to say to people, have you or introduction, you know you’re twenty second, if you will introduction, sort of a headline that you’ll have also some headlines about me, yet you have somebody says hey, tony, what do you do? Right. Well, say really, even though they want to know what you do, they really want to talk about who more than anybody, right? Thumb. So right. I mean, myself with there being polite. Absolutely. But i’m just saying, but that’s, how you draw a conversation with people. So as we all know, it’s very common sense also something so basic and self simple. Turn off all your equipment. I know i say this, but how many times do you go somewhere and people are still connected? Have great eye contact. Sounds simple, not always done in a firm handshake. Simple things, but all this is in your intangible tool kit. You know, because you have to think about these things. Also, take a quick look in the mirror and make sure you do give yourself a smile because i have a greeting in my office is a mirror is has a wonderful greeting. If you smile into it, it smiles back. If you frown into it, it returns that greeting it’s basic but basic works. Plus, you want to look to make sure you have spinach thing for understanding through exactly i talk. About that in a lot of my books and people laugh, but i say, you know, what’s critical it’s critical, and then in your end, in your tangible tool kit, this is keep have your business cards, not to give them out unless somebody asked for them, but have them so that they’re with you. I always say, have a prop with you to like something that you might where i wear a lot of pins have an interesting pan, something like that. So, you know, you can start conversation also pen and paper because your people took it was very full. Well, it’s not that full because what happens things are no, i’m pinned on bulky with my cards. No, no, no, no, not a lot less is just want one cup, one interesting thing, okay? And the thing is, i always say, don’t matter how sharp your mind is, it’s still weaker than the pale of stinks so i may learn something about you, toni, and then i’m thinking, i want to be able latto follow-up but i don’t have to write something down, so if we’re in a longer conversation, i might say, with your permission, could i write a few notes down because i’d like to be able to follow-up you don’t think that’s, you don’t find that craft if we’re in a conversation for awhile for discussing things not go? No most the time, the reason i have is after we walk away, then i think development officer going more morgan’s, you know, you’re not interviewing the person, not drilling them, but you know how sometimes you just like, well, that’s, right? You talk for a while, then you might say, just let me make a couple of those yeah, right, you know? And i’ll use their business card, teo, to make those, but no, i’m gonna correct on that because one of the things is i’m glad you brought that admonished no, no, not at all, but what happens if the business card if you think about in the far east and i’ve been there eight times and i always think about that when you get someone’s business card, they give it to you almost like it’s, like it’s them. I have heard that exactly, and people study it, they look at it, they come in on it, so you know what i’ve started. To do when i go to advance or when i meet people anywhere, i will get the card. Then i might comment on it. Tell me a little bit more about that and i just did this on one of my client programs that we do these webinars and all thie advisers in the room were like saying this’s, fantastic. Okay, something to dio, but we’re not in the far east, so i mean, here in the us we live in. We don’t. We don’t revere the business card. It’s maura, we should those, but but you know what, it’s? Another talking point. So the thing is, we usually to convince me of this. All right, well, i don’t want to convict e what i always say. I know, i know. I always say take the best and leave the the rest. Okay? But my point is when i will be with you so i know twenty tow woobox tangible and, boy, i got a front once i’m learning all the time. But the funny thing is that when you do look at someone’s card or ask some questions no, that part i love because because there’s often there’s information on the card that i think, oh, i used to live there or but i don’t look at it until i’m in my house. I met you, so i’m not. I’m not disagreeing with you about the staring at the card, actually reading it in the president, nothing glancing at the card really, i am being admonished is no question about that, but that’s okay, yes, we are definitely having fun. So but it’s the it’s, the not writing on the card, you know, because we’re not in the far east, it doesn’t matter. Well, again, i always say take don’t take the bus leaving, the rest were gone and i got the window, okay, but my point is because sometimes if you write on someone’s card, you know, a lot of times then you know it gets lost or whatever i say take it back, put it into your database or wherever you keep your information and that’s really what you need to dio and then put down your notes. So i’m putting my notes elsewhere. Now, if i’m in the midst of the conversation and it’s a lengthy one, as you suggested, then i’m saying, as i’ve done you mind if i take a few notes? So i need to have a little piece of scrap paper with many scrap paper? Nice little, you know, booklet being admonished again. I i’m screwing this up so badly that you’re going to make me a hermit. I never got to see this is never going to another. You could take scrap paper. It’s. Okay, but my point is, i take a little like all these wonderful little, you know, mole skin, but yeah, they’re pretty they make a much more efficient for station pieces. They make a professional appearance. Of course. All right, you’re straightening me out there, not admonishing. Okay, let me send a little live listener love out to maywood, maywood, new jersey. I have relatives in maywood, and that could be them. I don’t know. That’s grove street in maywood, new jersey. Then that would be my aunt uncle, but could be anywhere else made with the big town maywood, new jersey live listener love. And also hey, fay, china that’s. Not that’s, not in wyoming. I don’t mean. Hey, fay, china, wyoming. I mean the city of hay faye in the country of china as well. And were very apropo to send live listener love teo to our asian listeners because we’re talking about the business card and how it’s revered and how sloppy i am at events know that you’re you’re saying it makes very good sense what i did use those in a little bit now feeling defensive, you know, that’s very bad i would those little scraps i would take in the corner on it was actually not a scrap. I mean, i would have, like, a legal pad, a couple pages, and i would have it folded, but i would go off into the corner and make my notes there, but i like i like the idea of doing it face to face with the person and having a little conversational, beautiful piece of stationery that i’m writing on or some herbal note, because it makes the other person sometimes feel well, you know what i’m saying is really important, and you’re taking an interest this guy’s a big shot. Look at this cool look, it’s called a notebook people, and i always ask permission of stock it absolutely right. I’m with you. Yeah, i’m the crash one and you know i don’t know there’s different kinds of people. Yes, we can meet absolute have them identified, categorized where those with those types of people. Okay, well, after i’ve done my own research on the people i’d like to meet if i have, i’ve identified them, so i’ve already done my homework, but i may not get to meet them, so i always want to be prepared. I walk in the door, right? The greeter is right there if i’ve had in any kind of conversation with that person in advance. It’s wonderful to be able to say hi, so great to meet you in person because you have done the previous i’m coming. I might not know too many people. If not, i still seek that person out just so i can introduce myself busy though i am not going to spend a lot of time, but you go over and say hello. I just wanted to introduce myself. Thank you so much. I’m looking forward to the event and then come back at the end also to say thank you. Okay, simple talk to the people that are in front of you and behind you in line when you’re checking. In because just to say hello, what brings you to the event? So at least start conversations, people usually that air standing by the food at the bar? Isn’t it true? Yeah, great places just to walk over to people because it’s all about starting the conversation of working, the impression is very collegial around the food table you’re sharing force and well, serving for their not shaking or you’re just talking, everybody gets their own eating. Forget my events in-kind events you’re running, but i don’t know that’s an idea, but we’re also we’re only sharing the serving fork, so but literally there’s a physical sharing it is sharing the table space around which you’re walking, you started cos bar you’ve got your elbows on the bar? Yeah, so you’re sharing and basically all you’re doing, especially for people who get intimidated a lot of times about events saying, oh, who do i talk? Teo this’s. Perfect, because you could just start a conversation. Hello? What brings you here? Open ended questions would always have your exit strategy, then exit strategy thing. The other thing is people who are by themselves, you know, there was always somebody standing or sitting alone and we’ve all been there, so i always will walk up to somebody and start a conversation with them. Also, if you’re in an event when i’m there, the odds are that guy standing alone is gonna be named tony martignetti looked out, we know it’s a lot of that’s great, so i actually do engage, but now that’s a very friendly thing to do because people who are standing alone, you know, they don’t know what to do with their hands have a drink in one hand, the other hand is in their pocket or ah, there, you know, feigning using their phone, which i know you’re that’s bad, i mean, definitely should be disconnected when you’re walking into an event supposed princessa you don’t really want to be distracted right in the midst of a conversation, even if even if there’s a tone going off and you ignore it, it’s still just, you know, it’s a distraction, right? It is, but but these people standing alone, they’re they’re fainting, using mail checking, you know, you can walk up to them and saying, of course, well, what’s, the worst right? And they’re not going to give you the worst know it wasn’t really that great there alone don’t who are there other categories of people that we threw? The other group is like if there’s everybody’s engaged and there’s, we’ve talked to all the other we’ve talked about then i always say, walk up to a group now, not to people, because two people could be having are having a conversation so you don’t want to interrupt, you know, want to stand there, but if it’s three or more people just walk up and i do this all day, that teo and i will stand there usually they know you’re there after a few settlements, right? And i’ll say something like, you look like the friendliest group here, i hope it’s okay, that i came over here alone and i never tried that, all right? I just weighed on my way in because naturally, the group will start, expand and allow you in people just do that. I mean it so’s but that’s a good one. This looked like the most interesting group. But then if you go to the group next to them, you can’t, you know, because then you can use another life or something. Like that or else by that time, you could bring over, say, tony, i’d like to introduce you to or do you know, the people over there with it’s walk over together? And isn’t that a key sort of seeming like the host you’re trying to take over from those who want to seem like making connections so little boy about exactly and that’s? Why i always take on that premise in my mind that i want to be the host or hostess when i walk in for myself. So i want to greet people and be open and everything, and also because i’m an introvert, i’m a learned that you are martignetti learned extra that’s well, that’s very encouraging for the twenty percent of people who who said they don’t do their research and actually related to that. I asked another question, preshow you’re at a professional conference and you’re the last person through the lunch buffet. There are two seats left, one is at a table of strangers. The other is a solo seat at a small table all by itself. Where will you sit? Eighty percent said they would sit at the table, strangers twenty percent said they would set up the solo table, so for that for that twenty percent that we’re talking to, so you’re meaning that they’d sit by themselves instead of sitting at a table of strangers, and then i set it up solo table, so there’s nobody’s going to sit with them. So so now for your for the person who’s dahna needs to be a learned, extroverted what’s your advice there because that’s that’s you i exactly, i would say, you know, you need to have your own kind a pep talk in your mind that when you walk in and say, you know what, i’m going to jump out of my comfort zone, and i’m going to sit with some other people i don’t know because what’s the purpose of going and sitting by myself, i’m there to learn and to meet and connect with people and say that to yourself. And if you ask the person next to you, you know, has this seat been taken? Obviously is open so you can just perfect opportunity to say hello to the person on your left person on your right and just daughter conversation, but just if you think about learning e-giving sharing and asking open ended, high gain types of questions to the people, then it’s not scary, then you don’t have to focus on yourself, okay? And small talk is has a place in this right? Small talk is big talk you say to the person is a seat open. Okay, now you’ve already opened the conversation, right? So that’s, the first person why is small talk big talk? Because that starts the conversation report and everything like that and just be open and observing and aware. So the person sitting next may, maybe they’re all talking to people. Eventually there’ll be a lull in the conversation. So while i’m watching, i’m observing and then i might just say to somebody, you know, i couldn’t help, but over here, would you mind if i, you know, offered a piece of advice on that or something? And a lot of times you get into that situation, i’m thinking of the sitting at the sitting in a seat table, strangers people start looking at you, whether they’re in a conversation or not, they start to recognize that you’re they’re just like when you’re in the in the bar area, you know? Milling in joining that group, people will start. Teo will start to recognize yes, but it’s also, you know, when you sit down and you’re the last person to sit down it’s like you make a presence right there by doing that, so even if they’re all talking to each other, you know, you sit for a minute or two, but then you just start the conversation they know you’re there being an extra vert can be learned it’s very much learned. I talked about that a lot, okay, you mentioned the exit exit strategy. All right, so now we’ve been in a minute conversation a little too long, andi were sort of getting back to small talk now, like now we’ve now we’ve exhausted goodcompany ation and we’re back talking about the weather and traffic what’s my for that if we’re going to follow-up i always say there’s four things to do in every conversation learn something about the other person. So you tell me your name. Tell me a little bit about you. I want to focus on you, the other person give something. So maybe something you told me. I could give you a piece of advice. You know, tony there’s an article that you might be interested with your permission, would it be okay to send it to you? And then i would always ask you, your preferred method of communication if we were going to stay in touch, so take something away, and then if we were going to stay in touch, find a reason to follow-up say, you know, you said you’re an email person, would it be okay to reach out to you the e mail in the next week or so? Maybe set up a coffee or something? And then it’s been great meeting you enjoy the rest of your time here? Or i might say, my time’s already been well spent. Thank you so much for the conversation enjoyed the rest where i might say, tony, i don’t know if you’ve met so and so and put the two of you together and then walk away, right? Andrea, i’m gonna believe you gave about thirty five tips in this time that we’ve spent together, so people will have to go back and listen to the podcast and take notes because incredible advice. We just have about a minute before we have to depart, tell me the name of a couple of your books, non stop networking had improved your life, working career, million dollar networking a sure way to find, grow and keep your business. And i’m very proud about the book that’s coming out networking for veterans, which was done in conjunction with military and it’s coming out on veterans day. And can we find all information about that at nierenberg group dot com? Right? Andrea, i’m going to take so i’ll take a look at the time because this is really very important to me. Tell me what it is that you love about the advice that you give the work that you’re doing around this subject that we’re talking about, because it’s, you know, i was an old dale carnegie instructor if anyone ever read that years ago in the book how to win friends and influence people, and it was very, very important to me because i was always very shy. When i moved to new york, i said, i’ve gotto really put myself out there and build my business and do everything i was going to, and i always hear my wonderful dad up in heaven. Saying to me, read that book and then take the course, and i became an instructor while i was a publisher during the day and that’s that’s a long time ago, because i started my business nineteen years ago. But mr carnegie’s advice is everyday common sense, and this is what networking really is. If you look at it about giving first being a resource and sharing with people and making friends building trust simple. Andrea nirenberg is president of nuremberg consulting group nierenberg group. Dot com. Andrew, thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you, been a pleasure. Stay with me, tony’s, take two, and then any sample war. It kicks off her new status as contributor. When we talk about get engaged, one and i have a feeling he’s going to a lot of overlap between andrews conversation and amy’s conversation. Stay with us. Talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre awareness for two exciting events. The small live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna if you have big ideas but an average budget, tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio for ideas you can use. I do. I’m dr. Robert penna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent time now for tony’s, take two. My block this week is perseverance. Last weekend, i did the tunnel to towers five k in here in new york city it’s ah, memorial event for a firefighter who ran through the brooklyn battery tunnel on his way to the burning the world trade center towers on september eleventh, two thousand one. And he was last seen at the corner of west and liberty streets that’s the last time he was seen alive. And so that’s what? The race starts on the brooklyn side of the tunnel and goes to west and liberty streets. And there was a there are a lot of wounded warriors walking that, um, that five k and one of them. I don’t know his name, but he moved me. He had lost in one of our wars, both legs and an arm, and he had those they’re called either j legs or sea legs. They’re called both the artificial limbs below his thighs and also had an artificial arm, and he was followed by someone who had is a wheelchair with them one of the very high tech wheelchairs, but he did not need it. He had it following him, but he never used it. And just watching him come through the tunnel. A zay was going past him, gave me chills and made me think about perseverance. And so in all our work lives and our personal lives as well. In honor of that very wounded warrior, i encourage you to persevere and that’s on my block, which is at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two for friday, october fifth forty second show of the year with me now is amy sample ward as a snu status as regular social media contributor. Last time she was here was the one hundredth show in july. She is membership director for in ten the non-profit technology network and she’s a blogger for stanford social innovation review. Any sample word? Welcome back. Thank you. I didn’t know you were going to make me cry today. Oh, yeah, it was very human moving you just like long stride in. I was there with you. You know, you were painting a picture. Well, good radio is an intimate coming. I’m very glad of that. Heimans we’re talking today about getting engaged and engagement, of course, in online networks, this is all sort of setting the right kind of tone for our for our work online, right? Yeah, i’m so surprised how much andrea already stole our thunder for this conversation. I feel vastly under equipped. I’m not here with bucks and i don’t have a toolbox don’t like really great tweet oppcoll phrases i don’t have any of that, so we could just bring her back. No, you know what you’re doing very model, you know what you’re doing so let’s, apply your lessons, which overlap with hers. Teo teo online. What? We’re going to have the right kind of tone yeah are are working in the networks i think a lot of organizations, when they’re thinking about either starting profiles or getting them more active, the question they have is, well, what do we talk about what we do, what we say, you know, because they know that just re posting content from their website isn’t very engaging, but they’re also like, well, at least we have that content so that’s something, you know, they don’t know what to do, but just like what? Andrea? Had listed off at the end, you know, be the resource for the community, build trust start the conversation because maybe they’re just following twitter and they’re not saying anything. You don’t know what to say, you know that all those principles apply online and not that, like that’s all that you’re ever going to do? I mean, we’re going to keep talking about engagement for a few segments, you know, there’s more that you can do to build that up, but when you’re just starting and at first and as your default, you know, one today, make sure you are being a resource to the community post something that isn’t your own content, but, you know, is something that people are looking for or is in the news, et cetera and make introductions you don’t have to just tweet hey, everyone, follow me. Maybe one day you can also tweet hey, i’m at the sky at the conference today. Tony’s great follow him that’s about example but way understand the larger concept. Yes, well, that’s what that’s, what followed friday is all about? I don’t know if you use the hashtag ff follow friday you’re supposed to encourage your followers to follow people that you find interesting. Yeah, and i love it when i actually see organizations do it. That’s, of course that’s on twitter buy-in andi, you know, just with the pound sign and an ff and saying, you know, hear other organizations also fighting the fight with us or or whatever and showing that it’s not about them, not the only ones in this important during this important work. Here’s other great u turns out someone else cares about cancer, who knew? You know that there’s always other other organizations, and it doesn’t have to be the people you have. Ah, you know, standing partnership, mou with and it’s a real thing about jargon jail? Yes. Memo of understanding yes, first time, but not if but you know, it’s it’s, not people that you have to recommend. Yeah, but if i am a charity, why would i be if i was being devil’s advocate? Cause i do agree with what you’re saying. If i’m a charity, why am i going? Encourage my followers to follow other organizations that they might then start volunteering with go to their walk, run, start donating to them what i am going to take that chance. So that is a great segway into actual data that we can talk about. S o markgraf bitters, strength of weak ties, which is back from the seventies. But it is great and still still alive and well today from the seventies. So he identified four components of what he calls tie strength. And one of the four is reciprocity, so saying and setting the tone and showing that you are so confident and at home in this whole ecosystem of other organizations, that you’re willing to recommend other organisations, you’re willing to point out the research that someone else did. That’s actually the research maybe your community was looking for and you just don’t do that research, you know, so creating the reciprocity being the first one to do it so others no. Hey, it’s. Okay, we can actually work together in this eyes, one of those four components to actually bring the community together and strengthen it. Okay. I want to get to the others in a very brief second baguettes and live listener love teo schenectady, new york upstate new york’s connected e is that where i believe that’s? Where union colleges that was one of the colleges that rejected me nineteen eighty among it’s, it’s, a long and distinguished list of colleges that rejected me. Union college was among the my beliefs connected in new york. I’m pretty sure seoul, seoul, south korea welcome and rifle colorado. I love it. I love it. Rifle welcome live listener love out there. What are gary’s other? Wait, wait, mark. Exactly. I’m sure one of them is probably active listening good being a good active and attentive listener. Sorry, sorry. Mark so the other 3 and these still tying to some of what andrew was saying earlier trust time and intensity. So how are you building trust being transparent, showing that you have, you know, confidence in the other people, whether that’s the community saying, you know, giving you feedback and you actually saying yes, i heard you and that’s great feedback time, so not just posting at noon and then never engaging the rest of the day, you know, because it’s not you’re not going. You’re not spending much time with people, and it doesn’t mean that you have to literally have facebook open all day long and your chest watching facebook but it means once you post something, maybe check back in in two hours because if people commented, they don’t want to see it took you two days to notice that the comment, you know so doesn’t have to be ah lot amount of time, it’s just the consistent time, you know, on then last is the intensity, so don’t just reply and say thanks, thanks, you know, on twitter blogger exactly you want to actually read what they tweeted to you and then respond to the message? Okay, so thanks for that comment or, you know if someone posted on your organization’s facebook wall say, oh, that’s a great idea, here’s what i think of it or, you know, have some substance tow how you’re replying because a lot of organizations think, well, we’ll just right. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Every time someone retweets us and yeah, they do get the feeling of the you got it. But then they look at your twitter stream and i go. So you just say thanks no matter what you know, like you could automate that and the robots of the internet could do it for you so making it really human bon ce again. Just strengthens that connection, okay? I think another way would be if we talk about facebook clicking like all the time and giving again there. One word, you know, thanks. Whatever, but rather than just clicking like i mean, like, so good, i mean, there’s a value in like, but you don’t you don’t just stop there every time, exactly, exactly. And sometimes alike is all you can do. Sometimes someone post just thanks to you. Well, just hitting like that is great. You know what? An eye for an eye i but if someone took the time to write a thoughtful comment or to try and give you a suggestion, they want more than a thanks or or a like, you know? Okay, now you talked earlier about engagement and and i want to talk about certainly beings a little open this around engaged, posting things that are appropriate for openness and transparency on the sort of on the governance non-technical side. But they also translate to engagement on the social media side what’s your advice around some of those, like the nine, ninety and things. Yeah, i think it’s i definitely think everyone should post their nineties because at the end of the day, they are publicly available, so it isn’t that people couldn’t find it out about you putting it on your website. I mean, the number of people that would download it is still very small, but the fact that you are being transparent and forthcoming sets a much better tone. We’ve even had people at inten email us and say, oh, my gosh, i saw on this page that you’re nine, ninety is visible i think i think that was a mistake to really have your way, and we’ve had to reply and say yes, we put it there. We want you, by the way, you could have got it from the state attorney general likely our star star scott go. Exactly. Okay, so what else? What else besides the nine? Ninety? So i also think that there’s, you know, other than that one time of year when you have the nine ninety, there are lots of times that you could be sharing things openly in a way that isn’t just here. We put it up on the website. But we want you to engage with us around this like we just got a grant. And this is what we’re hoping to do with it and, you know, here’s, the plan, whatever join us on a call to talk about all that we’re going to do in this community with this new gripped, you know, it gives recognition to the funder, which, hey, what funder does not love recognition, but it also sets the tone again from the beginning that, hey, you’re, we expect you to care about what we’re doing, and we’re going to give you the opportunity to you hear about it firsthand for, you know, as we’re getting started, not a report two years later, and we want your feedback doesn’t mean you have to use every single piece of feedback, but you’re giving them a platform to connect with you from the very beginning of that of that program, the one that troubles me i see often is a list of board members that’s typical, but just a list of names here’s, our board and then he is this is president, the chair of the board, the treasure but there’s no little little bio mean, yeah, you know, i don’t want their home addresses, but give me a little richness and what? What their help me connect with your board so that i can see what makes them passionate about your work. Exactly. And i think, you know, a lot of organizations have tried to make their staff page very engaging. You know, like here is the email address for this person or here’s, the twitter account for the team or whatever. But then you go to the board page and, like you say, it’s, just a list of names, why not connect to their linked in profile or it doesn’t have to be again, yeah, doesn’t it to be there home phone number, but give it something so that you recognize it is a social space we’re working in and people could look that up linked in profile is a great idea. They’re about paige about dot com something exactly some depth. Okay, um, let’s, take a break, and when we come back, of course, amy sample ward stays with me, and i hope you do, too. Talking. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks band radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potential jules it addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. 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We’re talking about online engagement with segments called get engaged one because there’s going to be and get engaged too, and maybe get engaged three with new social media contributor amy sample ward. You want to create a tone that is open and encouraging to how do we how do we encourage people to post and comment? Well, a lot of organizations, i think, struggle with that because they are waiting for it to happen magically, like this engagement fairy is going to go about their community, and then everyone is just going to give them lots of ideas. So part of it is, you know, asking questions versus just posting here is thie information, you know? What do you think about it or we’re thinking about doing, you know, every friday we have ah, staff brainstorm, what do you do on fridays? You know, things that don’t require you to go research something to come back with a response, you know, that starts to build ah, little bit of engagement over time, and then people just get used to talking with you in that space, but the other part of it that’s a little bit more proactive is actually listening to the community, see? See who else is out there that maybe follows you that every time they post a question, everybody starts replying, you know? And and just an influencer exactly. And using the word influencer jargon jail whenever it’s called lawrence was perfectly fund-raising jail. So but there are rules. There are boundaries and rules on this show. Only i put people in jogging owes your first time. I think we’re changing the rules. We’re gonna have trouble all right? Down, sir. And influence or influences? Yes, but i think that that word has gotten overused by, like, you know, just by certain platforms that are supposed to just magically calculate, you know, what’s your influence of influence school and all of those things. And people forget that it’s totally contextual. You may have someone that has five followers, but every time they post every one of those five followers responds, and someone could have five thousand followers and that a single person did anything you know. So just because that person has, quote unquote more clout because so many more people follow them and yeah, exactly. And they’re connected to so many other people that have lots of followers, that person that gets everyone of their followers to take action every time. Well, they have way more influence in my book, you know? So don’t just look people up, and then look how many twitter followers they haven’t think, oh, great, they’re on our influence or less, but really look at who’s, who tweeted your blah glink that got everyone to click through, you know who posted about you on facebook and had all their friends like it, et cetera, and then connect with those people personally, like send them an email or, you know, facebook, messenger or whatever and say, we know that you’re amazing, the community listens to you, you know, you’re you’re so smart, whatever pump them up on, then say we’re wondering if maybe you wanted to give some of your insights about this project we’re doing, and for the next two days, you know, you could post about it and and will put put it on our facebook page or you can tweet for us from this event we’re doing tonight. So they’re tweeting from your organizational account and from their own, and so all of those people that normally respond. Are now responding to the organization’s account, you know, so it builds their credibility as well. I’m i’m so smart and recognize that, you know, i’ve been tapped for this, but you get a steal a little bit of that is an organization, you know, i’m going to guess you don’t think much of the there is a there is a site that i mentioned a cloud with a k k o ut where once in a while, you know, you get something you got somebody give you plus one crate chaos on for professionalism or something. I’m going to guess you don’t think too much of people’s klout scores, i do not write, okay? Because i don’t i don’t think it takes into consideration the context, you know, like i was saying it it’s such a rudimentary kind of algorithm, and you go in there and i’ll be ranked with someone that i’ve never heard of with the same score on the same topic, and i think, well, either my score now is really low cause i don’t know that person or it’s totally inflated, and we’ve never met, you know? And so what? It just doesn’t make sense. Okay, especially when you can earn points by bringing people into the platform. I don’t think that algorithm works. All right, why don’t you leave us? We with a parting thought about engagement, something way haven’t talked about yet, i how about a challenge? And then we can talk about that in the next segment, so i would say for the next month, try to ask some questions and then next time we can talk about what you do after that what’s, the next step up the ladder, now that you’re asking questions scene, if people are responding, what kinds of questions do they answer their questions? That is just crickets, you know, eso try and pay attention to what about the question, you know, is different for the ones that are responding, and once that don’t get response and the next time we’ll talk about the action part. Okay, exactly next time, which will be get engaged to will be the call to action. Exactly. Amy sample ward, our social media scientist blogger for the stanford social innovation innovation review membership director for intend the non-profit technology network and her sight is aimee mann sample war dot org’s or dot com they both direct. Okay, amy, sample ward dot ford and you forgot one important title, which is the new est jargon jail keeper? No, i didn’t forget that was actually intentionally left that we’re gonna have trouble with boundaries. You’ve just created such an open, collaborative environment. There are limits, teo. Everything you’re going to learn this. Ok, thank you very much for being in studio a real pleasure and my thanks. Also, of course, to andrea nirenberg next week, your year end campaign. I was a blackbaud its conference b b con on monday, just this past in washington, d c and next week i’ll play the first of eight interviews that i did at that conference. This one will help you plan your year end campaign, and this is not a coincidence to see how now we’re in the fourth quarter. It’s october year end. You see this? This doesn’t just happen. These things have actually thought about strategically. Our legal team returns also next week. Gene takagi and emily chan from the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco. What will they have? If you join the linked in group, you’ll know before the show because i don’t know yet and the linked in group, of course we have people from washington, d, c, peoria, illinois, and south carolina and pakistan. Are you in angie nierenberg when she departed actually told me oftheir that she’s going to posts a resource checklist on the linked in group and also the facebook page? So go to the lincoln group to find that i have my chronicle of philanthropy podcast called fund-raising fundamentals it’s a ten minute monthly podcast you’ll find on the chronicle of philanthropy website. You’ll also find it on itunes, wishing you good luck the way performers do around the world this week in estonian nail comey niall comey, may you get a nail in your tire i don’t know why the estonians want that it’s better than the other things i can think of. But just across the baltic from stock home is estonia, and on behalf of them, i’m wishing you a week of nail gumi our creative producers claire meyerhoff sam liebowitz, our line producer. The show’s social media is by regina walton of organic social media, and there are boat producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. I do hope you’ll be with me next week. One to two p, m eastern. Talking alternative dot com handup. I didn’t think that shooting. Good ending thing. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Nothing. You could. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping huntress people be better business people. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Oh, this is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas. And mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? 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