Tag Archives: nonprofit

Special Episode: Coronavirus & Nonprofits

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My Guest:

Lisa Brauner: Coronavirus & Nonprofits
My guest for this special, short episode is attorney Lisa Brauner. We cover the laws that govern your organization and the policies you may need to enact. Staying level-headed, how do you handle travel, your workplaces, parent employees, freaked out employees, and keep all your stakeholders safe? Lisa is a partner at Perlman+Perlman law firm in New York City.

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Nonprofit Radio for December 20, 2019: Impeachment, Say What? & #SaveDotOrg

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WegnerCPAs. Guiding you. Beyond the numbers.

Cougar Mountain Software: Denali Fund is their complete accounting solution, made for nonprofits. Claim your free 60-day trial.

Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.

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Listen Live or Archive:

My Guests:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Impeachment, Say What?
What’s your nonprofit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What’re your employees allowed to say, where and when? Gene Takagi has the answers. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward: #SaveDotOrg
There’s a possibility that management of the .org domain will be privatized. The #SaveDotOrg movement thinks that’s a bad idea. NTEN is part of the opposition movement and Amy Sample Ward explains why. She’s our technology and social media contributor and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

Cougar Mountain Software logo
View Full Transcript
Transcript for 470_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20191220.mp3

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[00:00:12.14] spk_1:
Hello

[00:00:41.93] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the love, their 95% under aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn extra tropic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Impeachment. Say what? What’s your non profit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What do your employees allowed to say, where and when? Jean Takagi has the answers.

[00:00:43.68] spk_3:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group,

[00:00:51.04] spk_2:
then save dot or GE. There’s a possibility

[00:00:53.45] spk_3:
that management of the dot org’s domain will be privatized. Save dot org’s movement thinks that’s a bad

[00:00:59.84] spk_2:
idea, and 10 is part

[00:01:01.88] spk_3:
of the opposition movement. And Amy Sample Ward explains why she’s our technology and social

[00:01:06.93] spk_2:
media contributor and CEO of 10 on tony Steak, too.

[00:01:14.04] spk_3:
Thank you for 2019 were

[00:01:14.24] spk_2:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:54.24] spk_3:
Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and I’m hoping that we’re gonna welcome Jean Takagi back. Do we have him? We’re trying. OK, uh, he’s in. Is he in the conference? Okay, we’re trying to call the conference, so I don’t know. Gene probably cannot hear us. So what we’re gonna be talking about is, um,

[00:02:02.93] spk_2:
some some stuff on, uh, what’s permissible

[00:02:37.85] spk_3:
for 501 See three’s to talk about, um, whether it’s around impeachment or the election election earing things like, Are you allowed to host a candidates forum? Candidates debate. Um, what about promoting issues versus candidates? What do your employees allowed to do? And that’s Ah, that’s what we’ll be covering. We’re gonna

[00:02:38.21] spk_2:
do Jeanne Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne de la machine. We got him. Jean Takagi is the managing attorney of Neo,

[00:02:44.28] spk_3:
the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non

[00:03:02.08] spk_2:
profit lawyer. He’s at G tak. Welcome, Jean Jean. Great. Ah, great to have you. I know you were there, but we were having

[00:03:04.94] spk_3:
trouble getting in. But now we’re now we’re in, You’re in and we’re

[00:03:12.26] spk_2:
in and s so it’s a very communal Wonderful Are you doing out there? Looking forward to holidays? I’m sure

[00:03:15.50] spk_5:
I am. How about you turning

[00:03:17.13] spk_2:
very much? Yeah. I love this

[00:03:18.50] spk_3:
time. Uh, we have a couple of weeks off from the show, and I have nothing scheduled for a couple of weeks. So, uh, it’s

[00:03:25.47] spk_2:
good time, too. I mean, I’ll be working light work light, I guess. And good time.

[00:03:30.99] spk_5:
Same way.

[00:03:31.64] spk_3:
Yes. Excellent. Good for you. And

[00:03:33.71] spk_2:
good time for reflection.

[00:03:38.44] spk_3:
I think on the new year, I like that you have any, uh, any goals for Ah, 20

[00:03:42.73] spk_2:
20 that you want to share or anything exciting coming up in 2020.

[00:03:53.29] spk_5:
Really excited. My partner, Aaron, Brad, Rick and I are going to be teaching a course at Columbia University starting in January, so we’re really looking forward to that in their non profit a management program.

[00:03:59.50] spk_3:
Wonderful is not gonna bring you to New York or you teaching virtually.

[00:04:03.29] spk_5:
We’re teaching online, but we may make out a trip itude in New York

[00:04:07.89] spk_2:
trip or two. But you gotta let me know. Of course.

[00:04:10.12] spk_5:
Absolutely.

[00:04:16.83] spk_3:
I mean, unless you want Oh, yeah. I hope you don’t want to stealth in and stealth out. Not not. Talk to me. I certainly wouldn’t do that if I were visiting San Francisco again.

[00:04:20.94] spk_2:
Um, okay, so let’s start with the most timely.

[00:04:30.74] spk_3:
Um, President Trump was impeached two days ago in the U. S. House of Representatives. Um,

[00:04:31.72] spk_2:
what’s, uh what can we talk about?

[00:04:33.38] spk_3:
If we’re 501 c three around that

[00:04:48.90] spk_5:
Well, it’s a great question and, you know, because they’re different types of 501 see threes and different types of non profit. I should make clear that we’re only talking about public charities here. There’s different rules for different other types of organizations, including private foundations for public charities. There’s quite a lot they can talk about.

[00:04:56.93] spk_2:
OK,

[00:04:57.64] spk_5:
we should also differentiate between impeachment, which has already happened, and the removal from office, which is still going to be a matter of legislative action, specifically a supermajority vote by the Senate whenever they get that before them.

[00:05:11.85] spk_3:
And

[00:05:12.57] spk_5:
I know that’s related issues.

[00:05:16.20] spk_2:
Okay, uh, because there go ahead. Yeah. So Well, why? Why? Why do we

[00:05:21.09] spk_3:
distinguish between those two. This is a big

[00:05:24.51] spk_5:
authority happened,

[00:05:25.38] spk_2:
Yeah,

[00:05:32.43] spk_5:
so because it’s already happened, you know, charity are fairly free to comment on

[00:05:33.34] spk_2:
that action. They’re

[00:06:33.93] spk_5:
also free to comment about how they feel about governmental leaders in doing their jobs. And, you know, it might be really important to do so in the context that it may really impact the charity’s mission. And, you know, for example, I would think that charity to mission is to end hunger, for example, for for American suffering from poverty. They might have a great deal to say about the administration’s rule to end food stands for like about 700,000 people. You know, the 700,000 people are making, on average 2200 and $50 a year. And if you want to comment on that at a charity, that’s okay the same way you can comment on the impeachment whether you think that that was proper or not. But what may not be okay if you’re gonna be talking about the electability of that person for or in any way talking about the upcoming election so you can talk about impeachment in and of itself on dhe. Whether it was, you think it was right or it was improper. But you can’t start to talk about, um, or start to influence the upcoming election. So that’s a little bit of a fine line. Thio. Walk on

[00:06:58.93] spk_3:
okay, and we’ll get to the election and election hearing. What about the coming potential removal from office, The trial in the Senate and, you know, advocating one way or the other for what you think. The Senate, your organization thinks because we’re talking about the organization level, we’ll get. Individual employees will get to that, too. But what your organization thinks about removal from office.

[00:07:14.68] spk_5:
So you know, there’s no absolute guidance from the i. R s on the impeachment of the president. Surprise. But, um, there’s It’s generally thought to be attempting to influence the legislative action inaction by the Senate.

[00:07:26.24] spk_2:
The mall’s

[00:07:51.21] spk_5:
within the tax laws, definition of lobbying and not political campaign intervention. So we know that there’s an absolute bar to, um, you know, endorsing or supporting or opposing candidates for public office. That would be election hearing in that not allowed by any type of 5 23 but public charities are allowed to engage in lobbying so long as it’s considered not substantial, and commenting on a potential legislative action like the removal from office action that will fall before the Senate would be considered lobbying. And to the extent that charity can lobbying and there are some limitations involved, the charity would be free to do so. But again, it has to walk that fine line because we are coming up to an election year on. Dhe has to look like it’s not trying to influence the election itself. So you don’t really want to talk about other candidates for office or on the general overall qualities of Trump as a candidate for another four years. But you want to talk. If you want a charity, you want to talk about the removal from office specifically about what, before the Senate. Why, why would he be removed from from the office? So you’re really took ing taking a look at those two articles of impeachment and commenting on the merits of those articles?

[00:09:02.54] spk_3:
Okay, understand? We need to take our first break when we come back very shortly. We’ll, uh, well, we’ll talk more about lobbying and what’s allowed, not allowed there. And, uh, we’re taking a break for, um, for wegner-C.P.As. Of course, in the new year, might you need a C p. A, whose service is excellent, who provides clear directions and timetables and who’s easy to work

[00:09:10.88] spk_2:
with. That’s not me talking.

[00:09:22.82] spk_3:
That’s from the testimony. Old. That’s not my opinion. That’s, Ah, the opinion of someone who’s worked with not with wegner in the past, a CZ you’ve heard the past few weeks. So if you

[00:09:26.02] spk_2:
do talk

[00:09:39.50] spk_3:
to partner, you eat each tomb. He’s a good guy. No pressure wegner-C.P.As dot com And now let’s go back to Jean Takagi and Impeachment. Say what? Okay, we’re

[00:09:39.89] spk_2:
allowed to do some

[00:09:56.68] spk_3:
lobbying, you said, as long as it’s not substantial. Uh, how do we measure substantiality? Substantial ability. Substantiality substantiality. I think it’s I think that’s what This How do we make whatever helps called Republic

[00:10:33.26] spk_5:
charities there Two ways to measure it? Sort of. The default way is just what the law cost backs and circumstances, and that leaves it up to the Iraq to determine whether you’ve engaged in too much lobbying or not. And if you want to challenge it, ultimately, a court and nobody really wants to go down that route. So, you know, professionals typically uses guidelines. You know, there was this old case that said, you know, 5% of your resource is that should be okay that, you know, anything under 5% should be okay. You want to think about your expenditures, your volunteer time? You know the amount of publication space you’re giving all of those things. If it’s about 5% or less of your resource is you’re probably not too worried about exceeding the lobbying threshold under that backs in circumstances.

[00:10:42.37] spk_3:
Okay, Yeah. 55 percents pretty low.

[00:10:46.35] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s pretty low. Um, but, you know,

[00:10:48.39] spk_3:
for some

[00:11:26.97] spk_5:
organization, that’s all they want to do. But you know, the better choice for the vast majority of charities. And I would say, almost the no brain and choice for charities that are not churches who are ineligible to do this but share other charities that are eligible to make the 5018 lobbying election. I’m. And that that is just a basically 1/2 page born where you put name, address and check a box on it. If you make that election of the charity which could do it any time at all. Um, you get thio, measure your lobbying strictly by your lobbying expenditures, and the limits are just so much more generous.

[00:11:27.98] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:11:28.59] spk_5:
so it’s 20% of your 1st $500,000 of what they call exempt purpose expenditures or mission related expended

[00:11:36.12] spk_3:
choker.

[00:11:36.75] spk_5:
20% of that

[00:11:40.62] spk_3:
100 $100,000 right there and it’s it’s deemed non substantial.

[00:11:46.76] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah, And there’s a separate limit for grassroots lobbying, which is lobbying a different type of lobbying, where you’re not going straight to a legislative body or an employee or member of the legislative body. But you’re going to the public and you’re asking them to contact a member of the legislative body and you have a called action included in that. So if it’s grassroots lobbying, it’s 25% of that total lobbing limit.

[00:12:11.99] spk_3:
But

[00:12:51.64] spk_5:
expenditure limits under Bible one h are much, much more generous than that 5% kind of rule of thumb that we look at the other time again. Um, a big, big tip for any public charity that wants to, um, discuss the removal from from office, um, stay positions on that before it gets to the Senate or wallets in the Senate, the 501 each election could made and be made any time. And it will be effective for the year. And would you make the election? If you decide you don’t want to, you know, continue electing it. Which might be the case for super big charities. Um, where the 5% could actually be, You know, a lot of money you could, you know, revoke your election that anytime after as well by just filing the same form and checking a different box. So a no brainer election for most public charity.

[00:13:00.35] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. So and we’ve talked

[00:13:15.52] spk_3:
about this before. I was probably the April 2016 which was the last election year. Um, you and I talked about advocacy generally, and I think the 501 h came up then. So you’re still a five. A one c three. You’re just making this 501 h election for the year.

[00:13:23.94] spk_5:
Right? So

[00:13:24.75] spk_2:
what do you

[00:13:25.08] spk_5:
make it?

[00:13:25.49] spk_2:
Your sort

[00:13:26.16] spk_5:
of permanently on that until you revoke it. But all it does that 501 age super easy election to make this thing. We don’t want to tell the IRS everything about our lobby. We just want the IRS to measure our lobbying on what was spent. We don’t want to try to estimate volunteer time How much of our office space is dedicated to lobby? We just want to tell them exactly what we spent and recorded on our financial for a lot. So, so much easier to report, so much easier to track. The limits are much easier. And if you violate it, if you go over the lobbying limits without the election, that facts and circumstances test.

[00:14:00.03] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:14:00.37] spk_5:
you violated in any one year, you can lose your Bible. One secret that

[00:14:04.58] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:14:04.93] spk_5:
But if you make the election, you have to violate it over a four year period, not just one year, but over a four year rolling calendar. And then you have violated by more than 50%.

[00:14:16.61] spk_3:
Wow. Okay, so that

[00:14:18.03] spk_5:
that’s just so much more advantageous.

[00:14:39.09] spk_3:
It is sort of a no brainer. And for those much generous, much more generous limits. Okay, cool. All right. 501 inch. Thank you, G. Um, what about our our individual employees? What are in terms of what resource is they’re using when they speak, when they when they speak publicly? What? What are the rules around employees?

[00:15:56.92] spk_5:
Well, you know, first thing to recognize is is individual tax First Amendment rights, right? So they have the freedom of speech. They have the freedom to say whatever they want. Charities shouldn’t control what you know their employees or their directors or officers are saying in their individual capacity. But they should control what they’re saying as representative speaking on behalf of the charities. So there’s that distinction to make so again don’t control what you know your your employees and your staff members and volunteers are saying about impeachment or removal or any other wegner slate of action or political endorsement. But make sure that they don’t use any charity. Resource is in doing so, and that’s really important. Don’t let them use their work email address. Don’t let them use the work. Tell a boat. Don’t let them perform those activities. If they’re, they’re, you know, working on campaigns in the office and the charity’s office. And if they should put their name on with the name of their employer, which is a charity on like an endorsement list of a political candidate. Make sure that there’s some sort of Astra’s back says that the name of their employer is only listed there for identification purposes and doesn’t represent an endorsement by the charity itself.

[00:16:22.14] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Um and so what? What employees do on there personal time and their personal Facebook Twitter email all all, uh, really of no concern to the to the charity.

[00:16:28.54] spk_5:
Yeah, but social media is actually a good point about hitting that gray area, tony, because you probably follow your twitter, tony. So you

[00:16:37.06] spk_2:
probably follow you

[00:16:42.79] spk_5:
individuals who are on Twitter who have both their name and their charity affiliation like listed?

[00:16:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah, in

[00:16:55.29] spk_5:
their account, it might be in their Twitter handle, or it might be in their short bio underneath. You know, the Twitter handle. And that’s where it becomes kind of tricky. Who does that Twitter handle belong to? Does it belong to the individual or doesn’t belong to the charity And could the chair to get in trouble if there is a political endorsement or a statement of opposition to a candidate for public office?

[00:17:12.21] spk_2:
Yeah, I always

[00:18:04.09] spk_3:
have presumed. Although I’ve never followed upto see whether my presumption is, uh is accurate that someone who has the charity name in there either in their handle or, as you say in their short Twitter bio, has another account that doesn’t talk about the charity, Asai said. I never have investigated to see whether they do or not. I’m following their charity account. Um, so maybe maybe people don’t. But that would seem like the better the better practice. And especially if, I mean, shouldn’t that be in a, ah charities social media policy that if you’re going to use the charity name, you know, there are prohibitions around what you can do with that and then and we encourage you? Or we insist that you have, ah, private well non A non charity Twitter account for all other all other non work purposes.

[00:18:56.44] spk_5:
Yeah, conservatively. You know, I kind of like that type of policy, tony. But for practical purposes, it’s kind of like our president or or Hillary Clinton when she was running, separating their kind of personal accounts from their work account. Um, there they are co mingled all the time, and not just by charities and their employees, but by four profit in their employees, so disclaimers can work outright prohibitions and requirements that they have a separate, Um, a Twitter account or face social media account may be helpful at times, but often times you know they’re just going to combine the two. So, um, just be careful about that one thing about, you know, sort of the election hearing prohibition that you can’t endorse or oppose the political candidate. One thing did note is that the Republican Party platform and President Trump himself said they really don’t like that Prohibition often referred to as the Johnson

[00:19:14.09] spk_3:
and Johnson

[00:19:14.70] spk_5:
talked about that before.

[00:19:16.87] spk_2:
Well, they

[00:19:17.05] spk_5:
want to get rid of it, although most the vast majority of charities. And I think the mast majority of churches. I don’t want to get rid of it because I could turn all charities into these election vehicles for where donors say, You know, I’m not gonna give you this donation unless he said a message to all of your members and donors of, you know, in support of a political candidate, and that would suddenly be okay.

[00:20:05.12] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s we’ve been talking. We talked about that. Probably when it around the time it first became a proposal, or at least well, I guess it’s been in the platform. The party platform, you’re saying. But there was some There was more talk about it, I don’t know. A year and 1/2 for two years ago, and we, you and I discussed the Johnson Amendment. Um, it hasn’t happened. Maybe because of the nonprofit community opposition. What what’s your scent? You were you were monitoring that very closely. What’s your sense of where it stands?

[00:20:57.67] spk_5:
Yeah, you know, I think the non profit community’s opposition was very, very helpful in that there were there were others who were opposing it. A CZ well, with a matter of policy. And I think as people got more educated about it, it became less and less popular. Um, it was a way for dark money. T sort of enter into the political system where we didn’t really know where the sources were in. People were getting tax deductions on top of it. So it’s something that be really bad. But the reason why I brought it up here is because if an organization wasn’t quite sure, it was speaking out on impeachment or removal from office, and you know we may be crossing that line. Well, conservatively, I would say, Yeah, the closer we are to election time, you’ve got to be careful even within the bounds that I said that it might be a lobbying activity and not, uh uh, banned political campaign activity. But closer do you are to election that could turn into what looks like a political campaign activity. If you’ve never spoken about the impeachment itself, and you just never it looks like your charity was never interested in the issue until just like, you know, a few months before the election with the

[00:21:25.32] spk_2:
happened that

[00:21:48.92] spk_5:
looks like this casted election hearing communication. But overall, I’m not sure that the I. R s and the current executive branch is really that interested in enforcing the political prohibition laws because, you know, doesn’t resonate with what their messaging has been. Maybe a little bit risk. And it would have been for four years ago.

[00:21:49.85] spk_2:
Okay? Yeah. You still

[00:21:56.54] spk_3:
want to err on the side of caution, right? I mean, I, you know, because they there could be some exception to their enforcement activity or priorities or something. So but

[00:22:01.99] spk_2:
you’re you’re the

[00:22:11.33] spk_3:
conservative conservative guy, at least in terms of legal legal advice of the legal advice side. You know, um, least that’s Yeah,

[00:22:13.26] spk_2:
that’s always been your You. You’ve always been cautious

[00:22:15.77] spk_3:
about advice you give. Yeah,

[00:22:41.47] spk_5:
Yeah, I think when we have a lot of smaller to medium sized organizations amongst the client, there’s just less risk capital, you know, private foundation with, you know, $10 billion might have a little bit Arjun for taking a risk and maybe fighting it in court if they felt like the I r s sir. Uh, neutrino general not correct in their interpretation of whether a lot was violated. But for most small and medium sized charities, they can’t afford to have that battle.

[00:22:49.70] spk_2:
We’ve been

[00:23:15.61] spk_3:
talking mostly about candidates. You mentioned a little bit about issues, but let’s make issues issues clearer versus candidates. Are you saying that if you’re non profit now, as an organization has has been following an issue for a long time and not just doesn’t just start commenting, you know, 60 or 90 days before an election, then eyes that part of the facts and circumstances test for people who don’t for organizations that don’t take the 501 h election. Is that Is that one factor?

[00:24:01.94] spk_5:
Well, just commenting on issues themselves, it was If it isn’t stating a position on a piece of legislation, you’re free to do that all you want. So if you’re educating the public about a particular issue, whether it be climate change or, um, you know, immigration, um, you couldn’t talk about broader issues and educate the public. You know, if you’re giving material facts and you’re doing it in a non part of objective and fair manner, that that should be sort of a fundamental thing of what you do if it’s gonna help further your mission. But when you start to comment on a particular piece of law or legislation and say, you know, this is either a good piece of legislation or this is a bad piece of legislation

[00:24:11.27] spk_3:
or this

[00:24:11.70] spk_5:
new legislation that we need now you’re entering into the realm of lobbying and subject to those limits that we just discussed the 501 h limits or the the facts and circumstances with

[00:24:26.22] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um,

[00:24:28.72] spk_2:
you still there, June? I am okay. Yeah. You

[00:24:41.39] spk_3:
Ah ah, word or a syllable at a time seems to pop out, and then it got quiet. So I I, uh I got concerned. Okay, You’re still with us. All right. Good. Um, thank you for flushing that out.

[00:24:43.22] spk_2:
What else? What else

[00:24:44.49] spk_3:
do you think listeners need to know?

[00:26:06.27] spk_5:
Well, there are all sorts of other things that public charities do around election time. Um, you know, they can’t endorsers support any candidates for public office, But the concert, we engage in voter registration and get out the boat drives. You see that all over the place, and you’re gonna continue to see it over the next year. So a CZ longer again there, you know, conducted in the neutral, non partisan matter without reference to, you know, any of the specific candidates or political parties, you can host a candidate debate or forum. I think many of you have seen those, uh, you know, hosted by a public charity. And again, the purpose of the, uh, debates reform should be for educating the public. So you have to be very careful about not doing it in a partisan man is not with leading questions or a selective choice of topics that that might influence the public one way or the other. Be careful about your selection of moderators and how you comment on the candidate’s response. Yes, I want to be careful about the time allotted to each candidate. You know, it would be very wrong if you allowed just one candidate. If there is, it just came down to the presidential race, for example, and you let one party’s candidates speak for 90% of the time and the other candidates to be 10% of the time. It will be pretty clear where that charity is leaning.

[00:26:28.95] spk_3:
Okay, So to borrow the old Fox News motto, you need to be fair and balanced, but not fair and balanced like they were where a court ruled that they were de facto, not fair and balanced. Need to be really fair and balance. I think

[00:26:29.39] spk_5:
that’s that’s right,

[00:26:30.53] spk_2:
and and

[00:26:35.50] spk_5:
obviously a charity will have its own mission statement to think about. But they’ve got a sort of put it in their back pocket a little bit when they’re designing those type of debates. Reformed Also, voter guides, Kennedy questionnaires, um, also permissible and even candidate appearances. If you’re providing equal opportunity for all candidates, you see that on television is Wow.

[00:27:05.64] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um well, we have just about a minute or so left. Uh, what? Ah, what do you want to leave us with for the for the year on this topic?

[00:27:17.93] spk_5:
Well, I think I’ll just say I think people should be really active in their advocacy. In furtherance of their mission. There are a few resources that are out there. Board sources stand for your mission. Campaign has some excellent resource is on the Alliance for Justice gives you more than mechanics of what I’ve been talking about. What type of advocacy, What type of lobbying, what type of political activities public charities could do on. There’s some nuances to all of this. There’s another layer of election law that may be on top of all of the tax law we’ve been talking about. So those resources are good places to go and go ahead and advocate as much as you can for your mission.

[00:27:58.17] spk_3:
Junior. So modest. Another very good source is non profit law blawg, which is at non profit law blogged dot com. And Jeanne, I wish you lots of

[00:28:01.34] spk_2:
let’s of enjoyment, lots of good time.

[00:28:03.07] spk_4:
Uh, I

[00:28:03.64] spk_3:
hope you enjoy your holidays and the New Year

[00:28:07.14] spk_5:
Happy holidays to you and your family. Tony,

[00:28:28.89] spk_3:
thank you very much, Gene. It’s a pleasure. And thank you so much for what you’ve done for 2019 and what we’re looking forward to. In 2020 he’s Jean Takagi, my pleasure, managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group. He edits that non profit log log, and he’s at G Tak. Now it’s time for a

[00:28:33.08] spk_2:
break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits The same nonprofits we’ve been talking about, the ones, the ones we all know. Non profit radio, for God’s sake. What does that mean For you?

[00:29:00.64] spk_3:
That means fund accounting. No more spreadsheets to manage your restricted grant funds. Also fraud prevention and exceptional customer service. You’ve heard all that in the testimonials. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now let’s transition,

[00:29:03.15] spk_4:
uh,

[00:29:03.88] spk_2:
subtly, but ah, but smoothly, uh, suddenly and

[00:29:27.75] spk_3:
smoothly to tony stick to and my thanks for you. Our listener. Listeners in 2019 were the number one podcast for nonprofits. Most listened to, uh, most longest running, most consistently produced, most sponsored just generically. Overall, you can say Number one podcast for nonprofits. And

[00:29:35.00] spk_2:
that’s because we have so many listeners. So I am grateful

[00:29:49.24] spk_3:
to you. Thank you for your listening If you have shared the show. I appreciate that as well. Thank you for that. That’s how we grow the audiences by listeners sharing what? What

[00:29:49.94] spk_2:
they believe is good content. So thank you with you. Listen, live or archive.

[00:29:54.54] spk_4:
It

[00:30:13.47] spk_3:
makes no difference. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to see my thank you wishes from the Chesapeake Bay, then you can view the video at my thank you video. Thank you so much. We

[00:30:13.61] spk_2:
have a B sample ward. We do not have

[00:30:55.80] spk_3:
any sample word. She hasn’t called into the conference line yet. Okay, well, uh, when when we do connect with her, um, we will be talking about save dot org’s. The issue is that the dot org’s domain that we all use I don’t use you all use. I actually don’t use I’m dot com for my for my business. Um, but you all use it. You know how important it is. There’s the potential that it will be managed by, ah company ethos, which is the water, you know, you may know ethos water. Um, that’s the company that may gain control of the dot or domain. And Amy and I will talk about how these things are all managed. Um, we

[00:31:03.55] spk_2:
have Amy as Amy called in yet

[00:31:40.84] spk_3:
means not. Okay, So what we’re gonna do is, um Let’s do the live listener. Love will do that. And if you will give me a nen dull Jin ce for a few seconds, I’m gonna get my phone and share with Emily. Amy sample Ward’s contact info so that Emily can text and call Amy. So hang on while I get my phone. Okay? The dreaded dead airtime.

[00:31:43.74] spk_2:
But I told

[00:32:11.54] spk_3:
you was coming. So, uh, you had you had time to prepare, so it should not have been dreadful. Uh, for you, So I’m getting her in my pulling up in my contacts. Okay, Emily, Here you go. There’s the ways to contact Amy. Sample word. Please Do use my phone actually, or whatever you want to use. All right, so we’ll be talking about dot Organ. There’s a movement. Does The hashtag is saved dot or Ge? Well, I’m only works

[00:32:29.19] spk_2:
on that. Let’s do the lifeless in love and it is extensive. My gosh, Um let’s go abroad first. Tokyo, Japan! Oh, konnichi wa Ramat Gone Israel! Welcome, Live! Listen, love to Israel as well as Japan. Gwangju, South Korea. You’ve

[00:32:35.28] spk_3:
been with us before. Gwangju. Thank you so much. Seoul, South Korea as well. Um

[00:32:41.53] spk_2:
Brazil. Mina Mina Gerais meant Minas Gerais. Jakarta, Indonesia,

[00:32:42.64] spk_3:
Capital of Indonesia, of

[00:33:07.84] spk_2:
course. Live! Listen, love Thio. Each of our foreign listeners and they continue coaching men city in Vietnam. And, uh, well, we see Vietnam from time to time. Thank you. Live low about to Vietnam and touch skin sherry in Uzbekistan. Yeah, it was Pakistan. Not too often, but we’ve heard from you before. So very glad. Very glad you’re with us. Who’s Becca? Stan? Vietnam, Indonesia, Brazil, South Korea, Israel, Japan.

[00:33:20.68] spk_3:
Multiple. South Korea, of course. Want credit that live? Listen, love. After each of those, uh, countries and coming abroad, we’ve got, um Brooklyn, New

[00:33:24.94] spk_2:
York, Cheyney State Park, Kansas. That’s interesting. Cheyney State Park. Are you actually in the state park? You can, uh that’s interesting. You listening from the State Park. Wonderful. I’m a very

[00:33:43.26] spk_3:
big advocate of state parks. Public lands. You got it. You gotta have park. That used to be the motto in New York City, but it applies throughout the country. Doesn’t matter. Of course you gotta have park green space. Um,

[00:33:49.29] spk_2:
Ashburn, Virginia. San Francisco, California, Tampa, Florida, Fairfield, Connecticut. Live love everywhere. We’ve got her. Okay, well, on the heels of the live love Let’s see now we got to make her wait,

[00:33:55.85] spk_3:
because there’s no way that I’m doing a lot of love without the podcast pleasantry. So now she’s gonna

[00:33:59.60] spk_2:
have to wait. She called in late. It’s our own fault. Um, the podcast pleasantries are over 13,000 listeners.

[00:34:06.65] spk_3:
You heard me say it on Tony’s Take Two. But

[00:34:09.17] spk_2:
I’m grateful. Thank you so

[00:34:10.49] spk_3:
much for being a part of our listener audience. The podcast listeners. Thank you.

[00:34:23.20] spk_2:
Any sample Ward. She’s our social media and technology contributor and the CEO of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change Anytime, everywhere

[00:34:26.74] spk_3:
about online multi channel engagement. She’s

[00:34:32.63] spk_2:
that amy sample ward dot org’s oh dot org’s. This is considered a potential personal personal threat dot ord and she’s at a me RS ward. Any sample ward. Welcome back.

[00:34:53.87] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m not sure what happened. I’ve been trying since, like, 10 20 to get in. And I assume I always assume user error trying to re dial, and it never let me in.

[00:34:57.38] spk_2:
Okay, Well, we had the same trouble

[00:34:58.91] spk_3:
here, actually trying to connect with Jean Takagi. We saw that he was in the conference system, but we couldn’t get in ourselves to connect with him so on. And so it’s probably not user error times, too. There’s something flunky.

[00:35:12.16] spk_2:
And the reason we’re using

[00:35:21.69] spk_3:
this conference system and rather than having you call the studio directly, which we almost always do, is because there’s some problem with the with

[00:35:21.81] spk_2:
the phone line. Four lines? Yeah.

[00:35:23.94] spk_3:
So we’re using the conference line. Of course, we need the phone line to get the company line, But

[00:35:33.87] spk_2:
anyway, well, you’re a technology technologist, our technology contributor. It’s wonderful until it fails. I mean, I’m almost I’m almost sorry for saying this. I do apologizing. That was gratified that you have trouble with technology too.

[00:35:43.21] spk_0:
Oh, don’t worry. People are always so happy when an 10

[00:35:46.72] spk_2:
says that something

[00:35:48.02] spk_0:
that happened because it’s so validating.

[00:35:51.43] spk_2:
You

[00:36:22.00] spk_0:
know, it happens to all of us, because at the end of the day, all these tools, they’re just tools, right? They’re not perfect systems. Humans built all of them and humans that themselves. They’re not perfect. So things are bound to happen. But I think it’s really interesting the way folks respond when something, you know, technological is happening. That is not what they want. You know, the folks who get really frustrated and upset, and it’s like, Well, sure, But you know, how far is that getting

[00:36:23.35] spk_2:
you

[00:36:24.02] spk_0:
or the folks who are like, Oh, I’m gonna you know, like MacGyver my way around, just like you all did. So good. Good for you for having a productive response,

[00:36:34.73] spk_2:
Thank you very much. And for you as well.

[00:36:36.44] spk_3:
You kept trying. And, uh, I could I could imagine that your frustration was growing as 10 30 Pacific time came and went, which is the time I I was expecting your call. I can imagine your heart rate was rising blood pressure as well. But you

[00:36:51.11] spk_2:
mean I mean,

[00:36:51.78] spk_0:
what could you know? I usually like to dial in early and listen.

[00:36:54.52] spk_3:
Yes.

[00:36:55.08] spk_0:
And so I tried. But

[00:36:57.23] spk_2:
you know, to know about it

[00:37:00.06] spk_0:
anyway, here I am.

[00:37:04.26] spk_2:
Indeed, let’s talk about save dot or ge I While we were waiting

[00:37:06.00] spk_3:
for you, I was introducing the topic. I explained the listeners that there’s the potential that the dot org’s domain could be managed by a private company

[00:37:20.46] spk_2:
ethos My saying that right? Or they are ethos right ethos. Okay, which is the water that they’re also there? I think

[00:37:25.44] spk_3:
they’re best known for water. At least that’s the way I know them. Their social.

[00:37:26.07] spk_2:
No, they’re

[00:37:26.36] spk_0:
brand new, so I don’t think they’re best known for anything.

[00:37:29.42] spk_3:
Oh, listen to the oh, we’re

[00:37:37.08] spk_2:
already getting. They’re already getting some attitude about this subject. All right there, Brandon. E. Hear it? I heard the tone. I know you. I heard that tone. All right, so this is not the ethos water company,

[00:37:42.12] spk_0:
brand new

[00:37:42.83] spk_2:
private

[00:37:43.21] spk_0:
equity firm.

[00:37:43.81] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, brand new

[00:37:45.14] spk_3:
private equity firm. Okay. I didn’t know it was brand new. I just kept seeing equity from All right. So

[00:37:49.39] spk_2:
let’s introduce, I think to get our way into this, we need to understand how

[00:37:54.06] spk_3:
this domain the dot org’s domain is managed. I mean, and I know you’ll be right. I know you’ll be judicious about acronyms because you don’t want to end up in jargon jail S o, I

[00:38:05.01] spk_2:
think. But I think it helps to understand how this

[00:38:07.05] spk_3:
thing this dot org’s is managed.

[00:38:13.47] spk_0:
Right. Okay, so I’m going to try and explain in some somewhat basic terms.

[00:38:18.47] spk_2:
Okay, But then

[00:38:22.62] spk_0:
I will rely on you to interject questions or fast forward or pause, you know, as I go.

[00:38:26.84] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:39:42.59] spk_0:
Okay. So the internet, everyone listening has used it. I’s probably using it to listen even And we know that website, You know, we don’t just write non profit radio. We write non profit radio dot whatever, and the part of the website that comes at the dot whatever follows is called a top level domain. So there cannot. We can’t just go make one up. Those top level domains are managed, and there’s only so many of them. And I can they use the acronym I can as their name, which stands for Internet Corporation for assigned names and numbers. There you can kind of think about them is like the body that’s mento. Organize the Internet, So they’re the ones that say OK, you know, we’re allowed to use dot com and dot or GE and dot I owe and dot. Whatever else, they’re kind of the keepers of the order. So they are involved in olive ist as those keepers of the order. Okay, The next group we need to talk about is the Internet society that is a nonprofit organization, and their mission is essentially to promote a globally connected and trustworthy Internet.

[00:39:48.31] spk_3:
Okay, listeners may see the acronym I s O. C, right. Let’s

[00:39:54.36] spk_2:
have the night knock Internet society yet.

[00:40:31.46] spk_0:
So, almost 20 years ago there, when I can waas working to continue their their work and managing those top level domains, uh, they bid tohave the contract for the dot org’s domain. And there was a lot of conversation about the value of a non profit managing the top level domain that’s essentially four non profit right instead of a four profit domain registrar.

[00:40:36.01] spk_2:
So I can I can is itself a non profit. Yes, okay.

[00:42:38.49] spk_0:
And Internet society is non profit, and they they won the dot or contract, and in the process of that, created another non profit called public interest registry PR, which would be the organization that owned the contract and operationally managed it. But P I. R. Was connected to Internet society, so Internet Society was choosing the board for P i. R. And revenue kickbacks went to Internet society, that kind of thing. So there very closely related as organizations. You No one is like the owner of the other. And for the last, like 18 years or so, PR has managed the dot or domain, and their work has included managing that. Making sure that there’s, um, resource is for non profit. They have they have, you know, everything from sponsoring events to funding training programs, Thio investing in research about, you know, the way non prophecies, the Internet. They’ve done lots of things to kind of re invest the money they make into the use of the Internet by non profit, and everyone kind of thought things were fine. Who write things are moving along just fine, and last month’s just over a month ago from today. All of a sudden, there was an announcement from Andrewsullivan, the executive director of the Internet Society, that they we’re going to sell P. I r to a private equity firm and that it was essentially great news because Internet society would get so much money from the sale that they would create an endowment for themselves. That was kind of position is the only the good news about this was because it would just be so much money for them.

[00:42:44.95] spk_2:
Okay, that was that. That was obviously early day.

[00:42:48.45] spk_3:
That was early day, because I in my research, I didn’t find I didn’t even find that anymore. So that that

[00:42:54.27] spk_2:
must have been that their first position. I’ll tell you what. We got to take our

[00:42:56.90] spk_3:
break, Theo. Only one we need to take. And then you and I can continue to invest the show. Okay. Thank you. Um,

[00:43:04.35] spk_2:
have you ever wondered why some nonprofits

[00:43:13.42] spk_3:
are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do just that. They are themselves former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage.

[00:43:29.45] spk_2:
It’s all about the relationships almost in life. What isn’t There are turn hyphen

[00:43:41.49] spk_3:
to dot ceo, all right. And we have but loads more time for Amy Sample Ward and save dot org’s. Okay, So the initial justification for this well, it’s not really much of a initial rationale. It’s not even it didn’t even didn’t even bother with justification. Just initial rationale was this will be good for I sock will make a lot of money by selling P I R.

[00:43:53.80] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:43:54.31] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:43:59.51] spk_0:
which of course, uh, raise a lot of questions.

[00:44:02.12] spk_2:
A lot of black people.

[00:44:32.91] spk_0:
And now the second piece that we need to talk about happened months before this announcement. So back in the early spring, the contract details for the dot or contract were up for renegotiation with I can and a few things happened in that renegotiation that already have the community kind of in critical response. Those things included some changes to what had, for a long time been part of the contract. One of those was taking away the price cats, so prices could be set at whatever was desired.

[00:44:45.21] spk_2:
The price for

[00:44:47.40] spk_3:
a dot org’s domain is very low, right?

[00:44:50.79] spk_0:
It’s about $10

[00:44:52.71] spk_3:
$10 for the year. Okay,

[00:44:54.88] spk_2:
Okay, you’re more acquainted

[00:44:56.72] spk_3:
with this and I am because I don’t use dot org’s I love Dot or GQ. You know, I make my living at dot org’s, but I don’t I don’t use it personally, All right? So, yeah, it’s $10 a year. Okay, so they’re So the initial conversation about a contract renewal was take away those takeaway a price cap,

[00:45:23.25] spk_0:
take away the price cap, and then some other pieces that essentially made folks feel that it could be organizations with these domains. There’s some vulnerabilities around censorship and that kind of thing.

[00:45:30.91] spk_2:
Okay, So a

[00:45:31.79] spk_0:
number of organizations

[00:45:33.22] spk_2:
and

[00:46:04.28] spk_0:
people had responded to those changes back in the summer and spring saying, you know, Hey, wait a second. This is not right. This does not feel right. This is, you know, longstanding components of the contract. Why’re these Chicken Jane? And despite overwhelming over 3000 responses saying don’t do this, I can. And public interest registry went ahead and the contract gotta prove that way.

[00:46:05.26] spk_3:
Ok, wasn’t I? Sock, actually, isn’t I Sock?

[00:46:09.57] spk_0:
I can

[00:46:10.46] spk_2:
I can. Okay, but I stock

[00:46:12.67] spk_3:
owns public interest registry, right?

[00:46:15.88] spk_0:
Sure. But public interest registry is kind of the manager there. The owner of the contract.

[00:46:21.62] spk_3:
Ok, ok, and they’re the ones who managed the managed. OK, all right, So now

[00:46:43.06] spk_0:
and what is kind of an added so we can think about it as there’s all of these changes happening? And then, isn’t it so convenient that now a private equity firm is willing to pay over a $1,000,000,000 for this contract that no longer includes price caps and includes some vulnerabilities around?

[00:46:50.72] spk_2:
Wait. Oh, I hold on. I didn’t see that. The price tag is over a $1,000,000,000.

[00:46:57.22] spk_0:
$1.12 billion.

[00:47:11.85] spk_2:
Wow. Okay, I did not see that. I was I was wondering, but I hope she’s okay. So All right, so the question All right, So let’s let’s fast forward now. You aren’t

[00:47:20.74] spk_0:
even following who don’t. Maybe you don’t even work in a non profit that has a doubt or domain. You can already see from, like a, you know, business magazine perspective. What? What seems questionable about the situation?

[00:47:29.30] spk_2:
How the hell are they? How the hell is going to make all that money back, right? Yes. On the backs of

[00:47:34.24] spk_3:
America’s 1.3 million charities.

[00:47:37.88] spk_0:
Well, and keep in mind, this is for the entire globe. this is non profit over the entire

[00:47:43.35] spk_2:
world way. Talk

[00:47:49.38] spk_0:
about wanting to have a human rights lens on reviewing this transaction. When we talk about vulnerabilities for censorship, we’re thinking about non profit, not necessarily in the U. S. We’re thinking about non profit in parts of the world where they rely on a dot or domain so that people here in the U. S. No. Oh, this must be a new organization doing good work. I’m willing to donate to them. I’m willing to support them. They’re likely doing work in a geographic region where their government is not in support of what they’re doing right. And having vulnerabilities for censorship means their government could just turn their website off. Right?

[00:48:28.27] spk_2:
So,

[00:49:21.43] spk_0:
uh, there’s a lot happening that is sure maybe not happening in this moment, but very, very likely could happen, right, because these changes have happened. So, um, what has also been challenging is that in a few of these public forums and 10 held a community call and invited the folks from Internet society and PR to come. And John Nevins said that he asked for those changes to be added into the contract, which kind of further creates this web of questioning about who knew this was happening. And how long was this plan, right? If those changes to the contract are what made the contract worth apparently over a $1,000,000,000 how did all of this happen?

[00:49:23.63] spk_2:
Did you have someone from ethos on the call?

[00:49:30.23] spk_0:
We did Eric Brooks, That Theo.

[00:49:50.31] spk_3:
Okay. And he has, uh, yes, I wanna be. I wanna be balanced here because he has a block post that from December 16th where he answers some of the answers, all the questions that a Mozilla Block post had had asked

[00:49:57.17] spk_0:
Answer some of those questions and I would say responded to them. Did not answer them,

[00:50:29.66] spk_3:
You would say responded. Okay, okay. So, like, for instance, on the pricing, um, what assurances gonna dot Or community have that ethos and p i r will keep their promises regarding price increases. We’re committed to limit increases for dot, or domain registrations prices to no more than 10% per year on average, based on domain prices today, that would equate to an additional $1 per year. We plan to embed these pricing commitments in our public benefit LLC or other corporate governing documents that that doesn’t care. Is that not satisfactory?

[00:50:43.24] spk_0:
No, I mean on average. So that could say, over the next 20 years, the average has been 10%. We all understand that Average doesn’t mean every year has to be.

[00:51:05.50] spk_3:
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now Eric says that they are Ah, they’re going to create a P I R. Stewardship Council. Right now, The Stewardship Council, um, concept behind our proposal is to put in place a dot org’s community advisory board body. The council will seek input from the daughter of community and convey the needs of the data or community to P i R. Management provide advice to p ay, our leadership on key matters impacting the daughter of community. And the leading voice in recommending new service is capabilities to be offered through the dot org’s platform to serve the mission driven community.

[00:51:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:51:31.06] spk_3:
okay. What? You know,

[00:52:33.02] spk_0:
they had a, uh webinar. I guess you’d call it yesterday. So did and spoke at more length. It wasn’t a discussion or, you know, they didn’t take live questions or anything like that. But they spoke at more length about the same topics. And what we can understand about this advisory council is that the P. I. R. Board and the folks already working there working within this deal will choose who the council is. The council has no actual authority. Oh, our mechanisms for accountability. And, you know, it’s like a group that they have chosen that they say is able to give be back. So I don’t see how it addresses any of the kind of concerns that rest of the dot or community has for riel accountability.

[00:52:35.39] spk_3:
Okay, so your concern is that it would just be like an advisory board on sort of perfunctory and not not without really thought without authority. The authority would

[00:52:48.12] spk_2:
still be may not

[00:52:52.65] spk_0:
be folks who would have divers or critical views because their hand selected.

[00:52:57.75] spk_2:
Okay, well, hey, did say

[00:53:09.60] spk_3:
again Eric Brooks in his block post. He said that there would be standards for qualifications for membership on the stewardship Council. So

[00:53:10.65] spk_0:
sure,

[00:53:11.40] spk_2:
they would think

[00:53:12.31] spk_0:
that’s a pretty like white, dominant view of saying I’m gonna choose my friends.

[00:53:31.50] spk_3:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because, Well, yeah, The question is whether the dot or community would have input into, I guess I guess we’re talking about. Enter the terms of this disagreement between ethos and I saw. Right,

[00:53:32.83] spk_0:
Right. So we’re moving from a world where the dot or contract is managed by a non profit organization who would also managed by a non profit er organization and into a world where the dot or contract is held by a for profit entity owned by a private equity firm.

[00:53:50.69] spk_2:
Do it right. Just the principles

[00:54:02.33] spk_0:
of those organizational set up completely changes the context in which the dot or contract is maintained. Right? We’re going from a non profit entity reinvesting any additional funds back into the sector to two organizations that are really meant to maximize profit. Right?

[00:54:18.87] spk_3:
I understand. I do understand. And this falls into the category of I I’ve noticed this more in the past 10 years or so. We

[00:54:23.50] spk_2:
have to I feel like I have to fight Maur for what I did to keep status quo.

[00:54:28.65] spk_4:
Um

[00:54:29.74] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:54:32.60] spk_3:
So this is something that all

[00:54:32.93] spk_0:
right, let alone progress.

[00:54:37.08] spk_2:
But yeah, I’m just I’m just Internet

[00:54:54.29] spk_0:
society. Didn’t feel that it was sustainable to manage PR PR didn’t feel like it was manageable. Thio sustain the dot or contract there’s a different solution to that than completely, you know, throwing it out.

[00:54:56.36] spk_3:
I understand. All right. I’m

[00:54:57.40] spk_2:
gonna let us go

[00:54:57.93] spk_3:
a little longer. We are. Typically, we would end right about now, but let’s let’s go another few minutes. Not not not 10 minutes. Because listeners are pretty much counting on on our but, you know, really go another 45 minutes.

[00:55:09.79] spk_2:
Do we know how much

[00:55:12.26] spk_3:
revenue P I R earns? I don’t know. Over the

[00:55:16.01] spk_2:
past years, Annual 19 nineties

[00:55:18.24] spk_0:
and that kind of thing.

[00:55:20.44] spk_2:
Okay, what do you know?

[00:55:21.19] spk_0:
It’s like 90 year.

[00:55:24.12] spk_3:
90 year? Okay. And you’re saying that the contract price is 1.1 billion?

[00:55:30.09] spk_0:
Correct.

[00:55:40.30] spk_3:
Okay. It takes a long time at night at the rate of 90 year to earn back 1.1 billion. And then it’s a venture profit. It’s a venture capital firm. Well, Fletcher, profit venture capital firm, which is a which is a profit profit firm,

[00:55:46.59] spk_2:
that it would be a long

[00:55:47.44] spk_0:
time if you had price caps.

[00:56:00.20] spk_3:
Yes, but there may be other methods, you know, we’re not, you know, we’re not venture capitalists, so I guess you know it comes with a healthy dose of suspicion, not just skepticism,

[00:56:02.04] spk_2:
but I mean challenge. There’s

[00:56:04.47] spk_0:
so little information that’s been shared and so

[00:56:06.68] spk_2:
many questions way.

[00:56:29.19] spk_0:
We have asked, you know how in the community Call it and 10 held. We directly asked Capital if they could confirm how long they plan to own the new version of public interest registry, whatever the new or profit is, how long they plan, tone and invest in that company. And they their answer was a really long time in terms of this work. Okay, well, in terms of private equity, I mean, a year could be a long

[00:56:38.39] spk_2:
time, you know,

[00:56:55.20] spk_3:
Right on his block post. Eric Brooks says Ethos has stated on multiple occasions that we are committed to investing. P I R for the long haul. Are investors include families and not profit acquisitions with long term investment horizons. Um, okay, now, but

[00:56:56.08] spk_2:
your concern is that they could resell it and then and then and then we And then it’s then it’s

[00:57:27.76] spk_3:
between 22 Private. Well, even if their public to four profit entities contracting and the outside community has no input into what contracts are between two companies any more than you know any more than we can comment on intends contracts with vendors for NTC, it becomes a matter of private contract in the case of every sale. Okay. All right. What should, uh, what your listeners do. What should we be doing? We gotta we gotta

[00:57:34.50] spk_2:
move on What you’ll do, you really

[00:57:36.45] spk_0:
love? You can

[00:57:37.14] spk_2:
go

[00:58:25.50] spk_0:
to save dot org’s dot org’s s a V e D o t org dot or GE where we have posted the recording of the community call, for example, if you want to be able to hear what the folks from these companies have said, uh, you can see the letter that we’ve sent to them that outlined some of the issues in the contract and what is really important right now. As for organizations to sign on and endorse our request that the sale stop or if you can’t sign on behalf of your organization, sign as a person as an individual. Right now there’s almost 550 organizations who have signed on, and we have almost 19,000 people who signed on those numbers really matter and help demonstrate that this isn’t you know, just in 10 and e f f who have a problem, right? This is a lot of organizations diverse people who understand that this is not in the best interest of a non profit, you know, four good world of the internet.

[00:59:14.24] spk_3:
Okay, Andi, uh, some of the other organizations involved Association of junior leagues. I’m just sampling from from a list of crisis text line do something dot org’s listeners know Aria finger Do something dot or GE ff Electronic Frontier Foundation Girl Scouts of us A Independent Sector Meals on Wheels America, National Council of Nonprofits and 10 Techsoup Volunteer Match Volunteers of America Wicked Media Y M C A of the U. S. A Y W c A U s A. All right, Amy Sample Ward. Thank you very much.

[00:59:22.12] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Tony. I really appreciate you kind of diving into this when I know it can feel a little acronym heavy, but it really will impact every single non profit

[00:59:33.62] spk_3:
Amy Sample word social media and technology contributor and CEO of in 10. You’ll find her at Amy sample ward dot or ge and at a M. E. R. S

[00:59:40.76] spk_2:
board and Aimee. Simple word. Lots of good wishes for your holidays. And for 2020. That’s a good wishes. Radio,

[00:59:47.02] spk_0:
I hope 2020 means we get to see each other in person.

[00:59:51.12] spk_2:
Well, we will it ntc

[00:59:52.47] spk_3:
But we need to go beyond that. Hopefully.

[00:59:54.43] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:59:56.03] spk_3:
Thank you so much, Amy.

[00:59:59.01] spk_2:
Next week and the week after, there are no shows. I hope you enjoy. Enjoy the hell

[01:00:24.21] spk_3:
out of your holidays. Take time for yourself. Disconnect off grid. You know what all that means? I don’t need to flush it out. I hope you do it. I hope you do it for yourself. Friends, Family. Do it. Take the time you need. You need to take time for yourself because you’re in a giving profession. So no show for two weeks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

Nonprofit Radio for November 22, 2019: Recruiting Your Next CEO

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My Guest:

Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO
“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Author Dennis Miller walks us through. (Originally aired 12/22/17)

 

 

 

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[00:01:52.10] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with extra fee if you turn to my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next CEO as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer. End quote. So starts the book. A Guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO. Author Dennis Miller walks us through that originally aired on December 22nd 2017 on tony Stake to Last Call for Innovators were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Let’s get started with recruiting your next CEO. I’m glad that I can welcome Dennis Miller back then A C. Miller. He’s a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than 35 years experience working with non profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s managing director of the nonprofit Search Group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, His Fifth, is a guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO, the Executive Search Handbook for non profit Boards. You’ll find Dennis and his book at Dennis c. Miller dot com. He’s at Dennis C. Miller, and I’m very glad that his book brings him back to non profit radio. Welcome back, Dennis C. Miller.

[00:02:04.96] spk_0:
Happy to be back, tony.

[00:02:07.65] spk_3:
Well happen years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you, what is the sea for? In Dennis c miller dot

[00:02:16.33] spk_5:
com and

[00:02:19.24] spk_0:
Charles my father’s names. So many Dennis mellows and grammar school in high school we put in and I’m very proud to be

[00:02:26.45] spk_3:
Charles. All right. You don’t mind if I don’t call you Dennis C. Miller the whole hour, though

[00:02:29.68] spk_5:
I just call

[00:02:30.56] spk_0:
me dad. You’re like,

[00:02:33.46] spk_3:
OK, now, Dennis, we have to be. And it has to be anymore. Denigrating the dentist. Venice. Fine. Now you’re by phone. You’re in. You’re in Los Angeles. Is that right?

[00:02:41.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m actually in the Los Angeles area of isn’t That’s a business appear this week. And now we’re spending time my wife and I with our two sons and their families and grandson out here in Los Angeles and heading up to Santa Monica, Santa Monica Pier right after the show. So

[00:03:03.90] spk_3:
All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want, take off now, we could just bag the whole thing. You need to go. Public transportation is gonna leave in five minutes or something, or you’re OK.

[00:03:08.12] spk_5:
Oh, you’re okay for the

[00:03:37.83] spk_3:
hour. Okay, now, remember the last time you were here, you almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. You’re you’re ah. Um, your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You need a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to Los Angeles, And this way you can call him by phone. Okay? You don’t worry about running running to the studio, okay? Okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what I was saying? No salmon. Every little word

[00:03:40.59] spk_5:
had a regular. You may have.

[00:03:41.29] spk_3:
No, you did. You had a high. You definitely had a heart, a heart because your face was red. All right, Um, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome?

[00:04:38.17] spk_0:
Well, think about it that there’s probably over a 1,000,000 more. There’s more than a 1,000,000 non profit around the country and with the number of people that are dissipate to retire over the next five plus years on any research a staggering, sometimes closing 75% the the vast majority of people went into the non public sector, and leadership positions were baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the community. So there’s a lot of retirement going on, and the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next CEO. And on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing. So it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit in. Actually, that’s why I wrote the book

[00:04:44.83] spk_3:
OK, 75% turnover in the next 10 years we’re gonna have,

[00:04:54.41] spk_0:
I’d probably less. I mean, it’s It’s quite a bit if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, you know, it’s now 2017 and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needing.

[00:05:18.54] spk_3:
One of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hire a such consultant. Now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book, you’re biased. But can you weigh the pros and cons for us?

[00:05:23.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Listen, um, I’m biased. Certainly if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, I think the book will help them with that.

[00:05:30.04] spk_5:
Uh, sure you want

[00:06:28.17] spk_0:
to go in alone Is this year you have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s gonna be needed for the board members to not only identify the profile of the next candidate but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved. I lay out those steps in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures, that they’re gonna be pain and most trees probably in the area of someplace between 20 to 35%. All cases, 25 that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet, so you wanna have an expertise. There’s like anything else you need a lawyer of financial account. You’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own. And the other aspect, tony, for people who want to go about on their own, is by just posting sort of ads and social media, whatever. You’re gonna only get two people that are looking for a job and you don’t know either how good they are, how well performing they are if they’re happy a search from is gonna recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What? I have

[00:06:46.44] spk_3:
those percentages that you quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is

[00:06:52.11] spk_5:
that yes.

[00:06:59.72] spk_0:
So someone makes ah a position whether the CEO, our CFO or development unable to save the position was 100,000

[00:07:01.00] spk_5:
dollars. You

[00:07:01.95] spk_0:
know, the average three is gonna be $25,000. But this day, five years, it’s $5000 a year, which comes out to about $100 a week or 20 hours of any. And you know, the thing about it’s probably the smartest investments that aboard wouldn’t want to make.

[00:07:23.99] spk_5:
Okay, Noah, particularly you get the right portion. Okay? And I

[00:07:24.54] spk_3:
guess the main advantage of going in on your own is you’re saving that fee.

[00:07:28.54] spk_0:
Well, you saving the feeble you also, you better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna

[00:07:33.84] spk_5:
happen. That

[00:07:34.43] spk_0:
so that you poisoned cons here. But most most really good organizations will use a search firm for certain keys positions.

[00:07:45.03] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before Ah, first break, Dennis. Oh, let’s just identify that this CEO change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so. This could be an opportunity. A great opportunity.

[00:08:30.56] spk_0:
What? How you look at him and I’m We’re doing a search right now. When we’ve got the finalists. Been seen by the search committee and beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm and, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from not a crisis to. This is a phenomenal opportunity to not just take it, get a new leader, but to have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while or fairly new. It’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So what if the glass is half full? It’s I look at it is very exciting time when organization most clients feel the same way,

[00:09:30.24] spk_3:
all right, and we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this. Right now, it’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. If that kind of C p. A. Could be valuable for you. Your non profit. Then check out wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the, uh We got some live listener love. Let’s do it good. We do. And we’ve got Seoul. South Korea s o. I gotta tell you, soul. So, uh, so consistent. Such loyal listeners in Seoul, South Korea On your HASA an io io comes a ham nida, which does not

[00:09:30.77] spk_4:
mean live. Listen, love out to you, but I’m

[00:10:47.14] spk_3:
grateful Soul always with us. Thank you. Um, Victoria that they can. Krista In Brazil, there will be a brain a star this on da lively love Love out to, uh, Brazil. Thank you for being with us. Ashburn, Virginia Tampa, Florida, New York, New York and, uh oh, another South Korea Chung Wan The same greeting goes to Chung Wan annual Hasso come So ham Nida. Glad you’re with us. I love it and they’ll be more, but I felt like doing the live love earlier today. And the podcast Pleasantries. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for being a podcast listener of non profit radio. I’m glad that we fit into your podcast listening wherever it is and whenever it is pleasantries to the podcast listeners, Let’s go back to recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book recruiting, Ah, guide to recruiting your next CEO and Dennis C. Miller. So let’s talk about that. That possibility for assessment you Ah, you say that you might, uh, considered doing strategic planning, I guess, if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next CEO

[00:12:12.61] spk_0:
Yeah, well, the you know the question always is You know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do you hire a CEO or do you hire or chief development officer before you have a plan and and, uh, kind of it’s up. It’s up to decline the organization, but give me a couple examples whites sort of better to at least an idea of where you want to go on what you want to achieve. So let’s say you wanted to. You go out and hire a CEO, hoping that they will build your plan and let some party. A plan is to be more involved in philanthropy. More involved in the cultivating. So seeing donors, what if that seal he just hired doesn’t have that experience? Well, now you’re stuck. So what if your need is to grow your board and the new CEO? Yes. Sorry doesn’t have that. So one of the things that I recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan. But certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision. Where you headed. Will you want ahead? What? Some of the big strategic goals you have? Um, what things that you need to get done. And then, obviously it’s much easier than to identify the the characteristics of the qualities and experience of the CEO. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for you organization. So that’s why it’s important to take a look at kind of way. You want to go before

[00:12:21.57] spk_3:
you say that If you’re not gonna do a full full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are.

[00:12:45.52] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are some people that don’t do a full blown strategic plan. I think that you could do that, but I think more importantly, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life cycle as an organization and as a board. Um And then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of, Well, you’re at that helps us or dramatically beginning the on boarding closet with your next CEO. So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind. So I do think that you wanna have and I point this out in the book. You want to have a sense of your strategic vision where you’re heading and pick up some of the key goals were having Yes. So when you’re interviewing came that you want to make sure their line with those gold here and it makes much smoother transition,

[00:13:24.42] spk_3:
some of the goals you lay out besides mission envision our fundraising and development. You know what you wanna do around that? You’re bored CEO relationship? Your programs and service is andi Course. You know, the book explains what goes into detail each of those, but, um,

[00:13:31.78] spk_5:
I had a couple of

[00:13:45.44] spk_0:
it. Certainly, you know, you walk additional capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have, Ah, plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you? Border. You building the right board? Are you branding your organization and communicating that the impact you’re having? It’s important things today, So there’s a lot of, ah, strategic goals that one should be having with this pauses. And, uh, you want to get a sort of buying from your board and have the new CEO committed help implement this employee.

[00:14:33.50] spk_3:
And okay, so this new CEO is gonna have need to have some skills, and you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing CEO are. We want to be thinking beyond that. I mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is gonna do is help you look forward, not current. You know you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current CEO’s talents, but you want to build on those for the for the future, and you identify a whole bunch of potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit relationship builder, et cetera. But you wanna be going beyond the current.

[00:15:37.66] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s easy question when you have someone you know, Uh, you know, what kind of ah kind of deal are you looking for? And that the person who’s been in the job for the past 10 50 years for name is Surely people would be like someone like Charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that your previous CEO had may be silly, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that I have in the book in another books. In my work, I D’oh tony, is the idea of today’s competencies were, uh, executive leadership, non public sector, dramatically different than they were 5 10 years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past, you know, aboard, we’re looking for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relationship in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out and get a grant. Though their skills are still important. Today they look for more than just kills but compensation traits such as they want a visionary thinkers today, when the House, the CEO or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for CEOs to create their own vision

[00:15:55.82] spk_5:
cream organization.

[00:16:34.49] spk_0:
I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of creative vision number two. Certainly people want the idea of relationship. Will the building relationships outside inside the organization, someone who’s a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is important, ships that you need not just managed and when you got So is a whole series of conferences that identify in the book, including, you know, being a collaborative non about how big of a budget you have in control. It’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass is out there for CEOs and executives, but I use the term some of the CEO jacket director do all the time.

[00:17:04.11] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s fair. That’s fair Fares. Similarities. Yeah, of course. Um, I did have a guest years ago. Uh, Eugene Fram he was a professor at I think he was a university of Rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the CEO. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and CEO. That chief executive makes it less likely doesn’t make no guarantee. But let’s like that. Board members will get involved in the nitty gritty, the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging a CEO versus an executive director. I did you give any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one over the other

[00:17:40.10] spk_0:
radio. You know, tony, the point you’re raises a really good one, and I do have a pilot in the book of my work. But I do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer, um, the more contemporary title is board, ship or support president. What you kind of the past is, um, it may just be words, but I think they have a lot of

[00:17:42.99] spk_5:
connotations. They do find themselves.

[00:17:53.44] spk_0:
I’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top lay personal pipe a person should be the president CEO, and I think that was profit last year right there. When you’re out there with donors. So it’s more than just an executive director, um, overseeing the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen. I do. I do before the word CEO

[00:18:07.92] spk_3:
on and also executive director. I mean, that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non profit term

[00:18:13.17] spk_5:
way. Want to think that

[00:18:15.38] spk_3:
running like businesses run this thing like a business happens to be a nonprofit corporation?

[00:18:19.26] spk_5:
But don’t tell

[00:18:22.79] spk_0:
mother interviews with you. It’s came up the term, you know, non properties. You tax

[00:18:26.85] spk_5:
that business

[00:18:29.26] spk_0:
plans. I think it’s important that today’s title be CEO. I just really think that’s important Title that have

[00:18:38.81] spk_3:
Let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing.

[00:20:03.91] spk_0:
Well, clearly, I think the this you know that in terms of size of the dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on this? It’s absolutely who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experience with search, maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good. That’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of 12 to 15 people, you may want a search committee of maybe five, maybe seven maximum. But I’ve seen larger or smaller, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two be tremendous amount of time commitment. So the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be an involvement here in some time. And then obviously the key part of that will be who will be your share of the search committee. In some cases, it’s a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, lot of people ask me all the time would it be okay tohave the form of a former board chair, a strip search committee? And I would say, Maybe I would say, maybe on Lee, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for

[00:20:09.73] spk_5:
the future, not so much because

[00:20:10.19] spk_0:
they won’t know exactly what they’re looking for.

[00:20:12.06] spk_5:
You all right?

[00:20:21.88] spk_0:
This is committee has got to be a forward, approaching organization, afford poaching committee. I think that’s kind of that’s something that I would be looking for a nose of membership.

[00:20:25.04] spk_3:
What about an employee putting one on one employee on the committee?

[00:20:28.94] spk_0:
I don’t think that’s a good idea. Actually, I think it’s a bad

[00:20:32.91] spk_5:
idea.

[00:20:33.45] spk_0:
Come out Whiter Bay and say not give example.

[00:20:36.04] spk_5:
Okay,

[00:21:21.00] spk_0:
Uh, I’ve had people wondering to put the, you know, you know, the current CEO on the search committee, and I The answer is no. Then Walvis of the current CEO, Timmy, and help in the search committee and the consultant, or either inside or outside of what a search committee helped develop aspects of the position profit. What will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next CEO? But the board hires and fires a CEO. It’s also very uncomfortable for a current CEO to be on the search committee. I had a case where, um, it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that I helped with succession planning in. They had an internal candidate for the position, and when the search committee as this person, what changes would you make? She’s very awkward to be talking about the changes you want to make with

[00:21:29.27] spk_5:
us. Of course. Right

[00:21:43.45] spk_0:
eye. But now there’s times when you get there, some people that have their VP of HR on the search committee of the knee that lays on. But remember, people, it’s not a good idea. Have staff. It’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his board Members of Donald.

[00:21:49.42] spk_3:
Okay, predominately. And then you said, maybe a volunteer,

[00:21:53.09] spk_0:
if you need expertise. I mean, if you know, if you’re going to not have a search committee and may Sometimes people can hire a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But I think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that’s happened things, so

[00:22:11.40] spk_5:
you could

[00:22:11.84] spk_0:
build it up. Great.

[00:22:15.91] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is gonna be maintained, right?

[00:22:41.07] spk_0:
You want a crucial because I make it clear to all my such amazing you could be you could be sued for. Ah, um we could be potentially have a liability for exposing that there is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way, you know donating. Is it been interviewing for me and and before you know it, Tony’s employer finds out, you know, feels like this is loyal to the prom, so you have to protect confidential. It’s something that I have to establish the trust of my chance coming in. They’re out. They’re they’re adamant, and it’s just it goes with the same goes with the business. I have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a

[00:23:07.71] spk_3:
job. And this goes partly to, ah, the time commitment. You know, if if there isn’t a ah ah, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is gonna have to be after hours people are gonna be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six PM

[00:24:12.45] spk_0:
Yeah, I had, you know, in our business is growing tremendously. What’s what’s going on. But you know, when people you know, maybe I’ll do it myself if you can. It’s up to you, but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what you want, but the outreach to potential candidates. Very time consuming. If you’re going to delegate that members of a church Dominion war So you know professionals are working or even retired. It’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people. It’s a lot of time. Of all the narrowing candidates down and doing the reference checking, it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in the process, not just putting in and out there and then, you know, interviewing kids. It’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity. That’s really important,

[00:24:17.63] spk_3:
which is when I was just gonna point out that you say something that caught my eye was very, very interesting. I hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation to our role Thio be selling the applicants on the organization Not

[00:24:30.88] spk_5:
just to be not just to be a neutral a

[00:24:33.02] spk_3:
neutral committee, but be advocates for the organ.

[00:24:52.80] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, the cannon is gonna come in, they’re gonna come in prepared, and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, Jeez, I thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best thing since sliced bread? Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need the candidate’s gonna besides what the search consultant is gonna be telling them about the organization of recruiting for as a search committee, a CZ members that you want to be portraying a very positive image. You want to be sort of extending your hand. You want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome in warm, even if you’re not gonna be selected them. And you noted on the process you want to believe with a very positive for Donna. That’s a major all the search committee as it is.

[00:25:43.32] spk_3:
All right? Yeah. Interesting. Let’s move, Thio, Resume screening. You got. You got a ton of tips you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of. But you’ve got You’ve got a lot of tips to share. Share a couple of resume screen tips Now, we’re at that stage that these things are coming in. Resume resumes a lot of resumes coming out share, share a couple of resumes, screening tips,

[00:26:33.79] spk_0:
a couple things one of things you want to look for is Clary right off the bat asses. Clary. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get a hold of you? You don’t always have to have your home address these days, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think I look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where, where’s your career bed and a couple of tips you look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly. That’s a that’s a signal potential red flag, red flag were bad thing, but it should be there. The other thing that those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences, but you never get intensive where they perform that. So two things on a resume, both for people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for a position or responding to a search from is clarity is the resume clear of what I’ve accomplished is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have. And I think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that it really

[00:26:51.37] spk_3:
yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise Children

[00:27:00.22] spk_5:
absolutely. Was a caregiver was given for power

[00:27:11.59] spk_0:
that was concerned about a gap. And I said, Just tell him you have a PhD in parenthood. I mean, should be proud to be a parent way. Don’t have parents. We don’t keep that one. So I think it’s totally appropriate. But be honest with what you don’t want to do is start to cover things up here, Um, and so the, you know, present yourself in a positive tone. But certainly be honest if you took a couple of years out or time out to raise Children and be proud of it. And you did but these skills and bring back the table, I’m educated Workforce.

[00:27:30.47] spk_5:
I think

[00:27:31.17] spk_0:
I’m playing with that.

[00:27:34.97] spk_3:
Let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off? When you see people with email addresses that are Hotmail or a ol? Does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology

[00:27:58.20] spk_0:
now. I don’t know. Not any. Tell you why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business email and the personal email. And so they don’t want ah, search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into their professional at work email

[00:27:59.17] spk_5:
like, Yeah, I get that.

[00:28:04.63] spk_0:
I’m okay with the Gmail accounts. It’s when I see you know Dennis at, you know, big love dot com. I

[00:28:11.83] spk_5:
have Is that you? I’m gonna try that one. Yeah. Okay,

[00:28:15.05] spk_3:
but wait. Yeah, And then when did the e mails that are unprofessional? Like baby cakes, you know, But

[00:28:25.47] spk_5:
I don’t want no baby cakes. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right,

[00:28:27.77] spk_0:
I think it’s a potato to protect you. You know, your privacy from work. I think that’s fun.

[00:28:47.61] spk_3:
All right, but let me ask you. But but my point was, if it’s an added, you know, sort of added date domain, like a o. L or Hotmail or yeah, you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology? Now,

[00:28:51.94] spk_0:
if you know, if you haven’t out of the email address, and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address, um, and at that, eh? Oh, well, I mean, I’m flying with that.

[00:29:05.98] spk_5:
I’m

[00:29:06.37] spk_0:
playing with that.

[00:31:31.72] spk_3:
All right? Long is not baby cakes today. Oh, well, all right, way Need to take a break, wegner. No. Cougar Mountain Cuckoo Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What that means for you is that it’s got what you need. Like fund accounting, fraud prevention, grant and donor management. Custom reporting the awesome customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page, which you will always find at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take to last chance. This is the last call for innovators with doing the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020. Got a bunch of people I could use a couple more if you or someone you know, our, um tackling a problem or just approaching whatever challenges day to day issues in a different way. Then you think your ah, your colleagues elsewhere are and you’re having some success with it. Then I’d like to talk to you because you might be right for our innovators. Siris, Are you Are you innovating? Whether it’s any the fundraising topics which are myriad or its board relationships or could be bored recruiting CEO recruiting like we’re talking about today, whatever it is. Program management. Um, if you’re doing something innovative, tell me about it. Let me know you got You’ve had some success at it and let’s talk. Let’s see if there’s a fit for our innovators. Siri’s. You can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com or used the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. That is tony Stick to. Shall we continue with Dennis Miller and recruiting your CEO? I say we shall. Dennis Miller’s with us. You know him? We’re talking about his book, A guide to recruiting your next CEO. You know, we can’t We can’t cover the whole book, so just get the thing. For goodness sake. You know it’s a dentist. See miller dot com. That’s where you’ll find dentists in this book. Just get the damn thing. It’s just that I don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right, anyway, Dennis, let’s continue our joint through Um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through Lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when I don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Um, now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things were looking for. They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability.

[00:33:40.69] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean the entity process. Once we screen people intense of un resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone in the process, and we can get a better sense of where they are. As a potential candidate, we may explain a final car weather at one. A salary package, so without can’t be wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple of two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural fit? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on 18 builders or the You know, are they collaborators of the good communicators? And then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results. And I think those two things is what kinda, you know, separates the people who get to positions of those that don’t hear. I. We advised. Certainly the search committee on you know the question should be focused on Limited tony, too. You know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal with things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game and committal results. Those are two things that are a crucial now, one of things that you may ask me. I just want answers ahead of time is we have and your listeners could get if they contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non profit search dot com, we provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. I would have told a score of 50 and whether it’s on leadership, communications street, strategic planning board relationships, etcetera. So when people actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got 48 people supposedly going in the search committee members can evaluate for people and where people come out. Usually it’s good to have with them.

[00:33:52.62] spk_3:
You have a lot of resource is at the non profit search dot com. So, uh, you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring Matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s get into some details here now. Is the whole committee meeting with every, um, every candidate? Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then I don’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets air gonna judge people differently.

[00:34:35.03] spk_0:
Yeah, well, here’s what we do. Um And, um, the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates. Now, in a case we just have here because it’s got multiple locations, there are actually eight people on a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which twice, but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meet so many candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee he’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of every every candidate to be seen by every person

[00:34:54.42] spk_3:
you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit, you know? You don’t want to be asking Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions.

[00:35:35.66] spk_0:
Yeah, you hear? You don’t want to say, You know, uh, you want you want engage him in conversation and they want engage you in conversation too. And so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current position? On your most recent position? What was the your biggest achievement? Uh, he has an issue for us. How would you deal with it? Stay away from the yes or no questions. And we have, You know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here. No question to be asking, but it’s not open it. Not not yes or no Open ended question. Engagement of conversation is the best.

[00:35:43.20] spk_3:
Okay, uh, let’s say we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s our next step in the committee?

[00:36:55.22] spk_0:
What will you want to do is you wanna have everybody son of score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring so you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is I have I have a conversation with this share of the search committee, and then, uh, I will then meet with the search committee, or one of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee, dependable of the searches and what it’s for. And then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates. There’s just one person they like and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s two final plans. They’re not sure. So there’s a process here. The pluses here is obviously to let the other candidates know that they did well and they thank you before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience that’s Maur meets the needs of my client. We hope to see him again. The future and then focus in on having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making making a final offer on an employment contract. Employment agreement

[00:37:14.41] spk_3:
right now in this scoring, Obviously, some were going to score highest in High Esten higher than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, uh, you know, even the highest scoring one or two just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like I said, every in a group of five. Somebody’s going to score the highest. But even that highest one, they just don’t feel right, you know? How do we way feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process

[00:37:36.37] spk_5:
Well expressed. Happened,

[00:39:20.56] spk_0:
uh, you know, only once in my recent experience where, um, in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and you know, as you know, the millions of millions of people that serve on non proper boards throughout this country and in other countries. In Canada, you know, our bright, committed people, they gotta see it. You gotta feel for, you know, who you think would fit in here. So usually you know the scores will help you because it gives you a feedback. But usually you get a kind of feeling who would be the best person for that If there’s a situation, Um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates, I absolutely would highly recommend that you go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. We started with believing out of pool of 18 candidates, uh, knit, knit up, down with it down to 11. That was down to five. And five people came in. And so the entire team and that team in there identified, you know, two people and, uh, lo and behold, some discussion and some some time issues, and then people not sure what decision to make. And it was some inexperience on the team making decision, and they kind of planted and they just so I’m not sure I’m ready to pull the trigger. So we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again and usually don’t get the great candidates again. And we did, and it worked out. So if for some reason you don’t feel it, I dont just say, Well, because there’s a high score because you’re gonna live with this person quite awhile. Usually does not happen. Tony.

[00:39:24.64] spk_5:
You, um

[00:39:34.96] spk_0:
you know the search for doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate. But if it’s amazing, you feel that, you know, I just don’t feel it. So this person is going to fit in here that don’t just pick someone because of scored. The scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate?

[00:39:41.30] spk_3:
Is this the stage where we should be calling references? Now we’ve We’ve narrowed it down to our top two or

[00:39:45.51] spk_5:
so.

[00:40:20.91] spk_0:
So what will a CZ We get? The final can’t wait, Do ask for reference, but here’s what we do. We don’t ask them. They tell us who they’re going to use this reference. We are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking. For example, in a CEO case, we know they can’t talk about the company we’d liketo have been talked. We’d like to talk to someone who is a board member, maybe a board member. Another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them. So, uh, we don’t always talkto the references. I had a time because if you’ve got four final candidates, we it’s not about our time. It’s that we if you’re not going to be chosen, why go through the hassle of asking people and speaking to the reference But with your Jarious final candidate, we absolutely do a thorough construct. And I have a little bit of a funny story that you’re Listen,

[00:40:45.19] spk_5:
um, you

[00:41:15.73] spk_0:
may enjoy it just kind of quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when I did my first start believing not 30 years ago, and I was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people, and it was, ah, man, a woman. And remember, the man had sort of Maur experience, But the young woman had seemed like much more potential anyway, for some reason, that the man had given me a list of 10 references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me 10 references, and I call it the 46 References. This man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru.

[00:41:22.76] spk_5:
But the time I got the

[00:41:23.74] spk_0:
78 I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time I got denying, 10 people were asking me, you know, why did you What did this guy even give me a reference?

[00:41:36.38] spk_5:
The moral stories you want to keep,

[00:42:12.63] spk_0:
you know, kind of dig in here, and it’s certainly you have a light as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we d’oh and same time protecting a confidential alley. But certainly we need to do a thorough research on them. And then, in addition to references, we obviously do a check on, um, educational credentials. And then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not do regarding the one pursue feeling criminal background check, will and credit credit risk of credit reports.

[00:42:58.13] spk_3:
It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of was 30 years ago. We didn’t have words we have. We have word. We’re gonna be using that word perfect. Where you had to write down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use, like, the last four. We’re We’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we gotta take a break. I missed our last break. You ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you to do that. They themselves are former journalists. They specialize

[00:43:04.45] spk_4:
in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a

[00:43:45.38] spk_3:
turn hyphen to dot ceo. Let’s add a little more live love. We got someone jumped in from New York, New York. Welcome. Welcome. New New York New York listener Also. Bangkok, Thailand. I’ve been there and that’s a beautiful city. Beautiful, rich history and, uh, Tijuana, Mexico. Wegner Star Days, Tijuana. Let’s go back. We’ve got butt loads. More time, as we always do for recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book, a guy to recruiting your next CEO. Let’s continue our joint. Ah, Ajanta Dennis. Okay, so we’ve checked references, references, and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours And what? They’re meeting some of the staff now, too. And maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our service is,

[00:44:01.29] spk_0:
uh, no, what? We worked a

[00:44:02.76] spk_5:
man that don’t do that made staff

[00:44:05.36] spk_0:
until they are having a pleasant

[00:44:08.26] spk_5:
way.

[00:44:29.60] spk_0:
In actuality, you don’t You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a CEO level. Uh, they have to pick the CEO. If it’s another level. Certainly, if it’s a chief operating officer of chief financial officer, it’s probably appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them, then find out who’s a better fit culture, that line.

[00:44:32.94] spk_5:
But

[00:44:34.11] spk_0:
on a CEO, though, you won’t make it clear that the board is making the decision and I would not have staff involved on interviewing until mating accepted.

[00:44:45.18] spk_3:
So who are they meeting then? In this this day when they’re going to visit the visit? The site.

[00:44:50.16] spk_0:
While so many have gone to the search committee, Obviously, there’s no one else to me except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the CEO

[00:44:58.03] spk_5:
way, our home,

[00:46:29.73] spk_0:
that once a search committee has made a decision, um, before an offer was made, it’s, uh, what the search committee wants to Dio doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wanna search? Committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board, and in many cases, and I will advise us is have that final CEO Warren. The case where there’s too close candidates committed. Meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one, that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants. Don’t waste the time of having to to feel you have to bring a 2nd 1 and you given someone hope when when they’re not probably gonna be selected But I have an interesting story, tony, that you listen, May 1. Here. Uh, about a year ago, we did a search for a CEO, and the search committee had him ranked. Wanted to have this. Ah, woman ranked one and a guy number two. And, um, I had agreed with that recommendation. Thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation. Ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate. And some things came up in discussions. And I think at the end of day, they made the right decision. So don’t forget, the board has the final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee is here to recommend candidates. But do not hire a CEO from a search committee on Lee. They must meet the entire board.

[00:46:35.38] spk_3:
Have you ever heard of co CEOs?

[00:47:32.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I have. And I I found it never. Well, a couple times, it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions so both people take on the role of co CEO. 1 may have responsibility for maybe a certain geography one than another. Ah, one’s focus more on one thing I before not the have it. I think, uh, co CEOs is like co board chairs. Um, it doesn’t make a feeling that anybody is really in charge. Um, I’m working with an organization right now out in California because we do certainly national searches as well as in Canada. And you know, there’s a transition going on and it’s the heart organization. It’s important to know who’s in charge. So if it has to happen and you’re particularly with a merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally, it sooner than later, it’s only a position. You can’t have a Coast CEO. It doesn’t work. I’ve seen co chief development offices, and it doesn’t work either. I mean, I think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion.

[00:48:18.83] spk_3:
Okay, way explored co CEOs with Jean Takagi. So if anyone wants Thio, get more on that. That was the May 19th 2017 show with Gene. Um, Okay. Um all right, we, uh it’s time to negotiate an offer we were, uh we’ve selected our top one. Um, you like guards? Guidestar. They have? I don’t know if you mentioned I know them. Guide star has a good salary guide. Comes out every year. S Oh, it’s it’s current. Um, but do you have other studies that you like?

[00:48:21.17] spk_0:
Yeah, a couple of things here. We have a good sense of what the marketplaces like. Different geography, maybe

[00:48:26.80] spk_5:
waken

[00:48:46.47] spk_0:
use guide star and I. I like your condition well, but here’s the palm and it’s not Guide says bomb. Is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest compensated employees? It’s probably two years old. Um, even if it says 2016 and you’re in 17 it may have been, you know, we were involved in June of 2015 so I don’t rely upon that Nestle as a guide for

[00:48:53.31] spk_5:
making offer. I

[00:49:23.71] spk_0:
know what the organization, um, is looking to pay. I know what What? The Sally is people that are looking, and then we I advise because I’m involved in every single. So I advise my client is what I think it’s gonna take to get the person I’ve seen clients do salary surveys using Geiser and other things that commit some other compensations. Raise. There’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that. You don’t know what the performance of the organization has been. You don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what how well they’ve done with fund raising.

[00:49:30.20] spk_5:
You

[00:49:39.63] spk_0:
know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So one of the advantages of doing what? What the rate is to attract some money, and that’s kind of what we do.

[00:49:43.61] spk_3:
Okay, let’s spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you just gotta buy the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book. But I wanna spend last couple minutes just about two minutes or so on on on boarding. This is a board responsive board responsibility.

[00:50:09.19] spk_0:
Well, that’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to CEOs, I mean, half of them have never been on border. So what? What do you mean by sort of on board a candidate? Well, are on boarding. I’m boarding. If you don’t get on board, you get hired, and then you start, and then you go, Jeez, I don’t know. This is the way. Itwas

[00:50:15.06] spk_3:
you know, you’re not supported in your new digital, John. So

[00:50:25.65] spk_0:
I know what you on boarding refers to. The idea of preparing a CEO to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components

[00:50:26.92] spk_5:
of the new

[00:51:14.06] spk_0:
role and or to the board here really, very important that be some type of on boarding process. So, as an example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about with on boarding. Here is, um let’s be clear. So both the board and the CEO and again, you could say the same thing about a CEO or CFO. What? She’s development officer. Same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly, that’s gonna come up. Don’t interview puzzle, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair I want to communicate to the CEO? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other Friday? Did they want e mails or not e mails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the CEO to accomplish in the 1st 30 days or 60 days, or maybe 180

[00:51:21.37] spk_5:
days.

[00:51:27.63] spk_0:
What the cultural issues or financial issues that the organization is facing. What senior members of the team may have some performances. The watch out for who were the key stakeholders outside the organization, like donors of volunteers that you want the seal to make sure that building wishes perhaps, maybe with a local Congress person or a member of the Senate Assembly here.

[00:51:46.27] spk_3:
Dennis Dennis. We gotta leave it there. There’s too much.

[00:51:49.16] spk_5:
All right. Thank

[00:52:08.43] spk_3:
you so much, Dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guy to recruiting your next CEO. You’ll find it at Dennis c. Miller dot com, and you’ll find him at Dennis C. Miller next week. We don’t have any show, so I’m wishing you happy. Turkey Day. Help you enjoy your Thanksgiving. I hope it’s time away from work, including email and text.

[00:52:19.61] spk_4:
If texting is part of your work,

[00:53:03.64] spk_3:
um, and time with family, family and maybe even dear friends. I hope you enjoy your Thanksgiving. We’ll be back on December 6th with Vivian Hexter on Big Impact. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers

[00:53:44.00] spk_2:
Clad Meyerhoff. Sam Leave, which is the lying producer thief shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Knew every next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% will actually be with me in two weeks for big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for October 18, 2019: Scale Up & Sustain

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Kathleen Kelly Janus: Scale Up & Sustain
It’s a question I hear often from nonprofit leaders: “How does my organization get to the next level?” Kathleen Kelly Janus’s research leads her to the answers and she shares them with you. Her book is “Social Startup Success.” (Originally aired 12/8/17)

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Wall I if I saw that you missed today’s show Scale Up and sustain. It’s a question I hear often from non-profit leaders. How does my organization get to the next level? Kathleen Kelly. Janice’s research leads her to the answers, and she shares them with you. Her book is Social startup Success that originally aired on December 8th 2017 on Tony’s take to share Share. That’s fair, Responsive by Wagner C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software Denali, fundez They’re Complete accounting Solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s scale up and sustain. I’m very glad to welcome Kathleen Kelly Janice to the show. She is a social entrepreneur, author and lecturer at Stanford University. Her work in philanthropy, millennial millennial engagement and scaling Early stage organizations has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Huffington Post, Stanford Social Innovation Review, non-profit radio Is there TechCrunch and The San Francisco Chronicle I’ve been in the Wall Street Journal, too. So you know, she’s the co founder of Spark. I haven’t cofounded anything. That’s the largest network of millennial donors in the world. Her new book is Social Startup Success. How the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference. She’s at K k. Janice. And I’m very glad and pleased. Thrilled that Kathleen’s book brings her to non-profit Radio Welcome, Kathleen Kelly. Janice, Thank you so much for having me, Tony. It’s my place. My real pleasure. I am. I am anxious to talk to you about this book. As anxious as I was to read it because I do always get that question. How do we get to the next level? And, um, I believe you have Ah, I believe you have the answer. Answers answers. I believe you can point us in the right direction. I hope so. Okay. Okay. I wanna, um I’m gonna start with reading something. I’m actually gonna start with the conclusion of your book. Thats paragraph just struck me. So, um, it says the journey and we’re gonna talk about your journey has made me even more keenly aware of how many non-profits are operating on a month to month basis, scrambling to raise money to sustain them. While so much innovation has occurred in the nonprofit world in recent decades, my conversations with organizational leaders and my observations of their daily routines have impressed upon me how considerable the challenges any non-profit faces are, no matter how innovative it’s model or impactful its services. What’s going on out there? Kathleen Kelly Johnson. Janice Well, I think you you really summed it up nicely there. Those are your words, not mine. I just You summed it up. I just I’m a copycat. What what’s happening is that we’re on the one hand, living in a philanthropic renaissance. It’s a really exciting time for non-profit innovation. So many in-kind credible ideas are happening, and I’ve really had a front row seat here in the Silicon Valley, watching so many non-profits capitalizing on Ah, lot of the growth that we’ve seen in the tech industry as well. Organizations like Key by using crowdfunding Thio be able to support organizations in the developing world. And then, on the other hand, we have so many incredible ideas that are dying on the vine because organizations can’t get the financial support that they need to get to the next level to get to a level of sustainability. And I became really interested in the question myself. I was really, really curious. Why are some organizations succeeding and wire others really flailing? And it turns out that in fact, 2/3 of non-profits in the United States air $500,000 in below revenue. And many of these organizations should stay small community based organizations and are feeling an important role in the non-profit community. But many of these organizations want to scale. They figured out a proven model that is working to support their beneficiaries. Thio help create a more just world, and they simply can’t get the capital they need to grow. And so my research really explores the foundations of success. What is it that organizations need to do in order to take that next step in to grow their impact to the next level? Yeah, you talk about the struggle to scale, which is essentially what you just said even more eloquently. Um, see. So let’s, um we’re not gonna have time to go through the the entire book. You know, you’ve got five elements of what you think. It takes toe scale and be sustainable. Um, so I’m just gonna start with encouraging people. You just, you know, if you want to get to the next level, you just got a by the book. I mean, that non-profit radio is good as it is. Cannot substitute for this for this book, so all right, I may mention that a couple times. So why don’t you walk us through the five parts of what you believe? You know, your research has, um, lead youto t believe you are the essential parts of what, What’s needed? Sure. So there’s five strategies that I identify that came up over and over again in the 100 interviews that I did around the country of organizations that have scaled past $2 million and beyond. And and that’s really the level that I define as a certain level of sustainability. Um and so the organizations that tend to scale really all exhibited thes five strategies. So the 1st 1 is that They began testing their ideas very early on and before they went out and raised money. They figured out some ways to pilot the program so that they could figure out what was working at what was not so. But by the time they went out to market, they they had some impact to show. When we’re able to get funded for that and and B, we’re able to then integrate a culture of innovation that helped them constantly improve their models as they grow. The second strategy is that these organizations that the organizations that tended to scale more quickly in a large survey that I did the survey results show that these organizations, we’re able to say that they began measuring impact from the very start from Day one, and that’s not make sense because those are the organizations that were able to go out, and Thio show donors that they were having an impact and, um but those are also the organizations that are able to increase their impact by letting go programs that aren’t working or tweaking them and making them better, so that impact measurement is really key and it’s often something that organizations struggle with the third strategy is funding experimentation and developing a plan to test both earned income sources as well as philanthropic income, to figure out a funding model that works, Um, and Thio to be able to take the organization to scale. There is no one size fits all sending model for nonprofit organizations. Every organization has to figure out what’s gonna work for them. And so putting some processes in place to test out different sources of income is gonna be the best way for organizations to figure out what that is. The fourth strategy is developing a culture of collective leadership. I think we all have this tendency in in today’s society thio to revere the founder to put founders on the pedestal, whether it’s in the for-profit world. Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook or associating Apple with Steve Jobs or even in the nonprofit world. And you know, the quintessential um example, is Mohammed Yunus is the is the founder of the Grameen Bank and won the Nobel Prize, and leaders should be honored. But at the same time, they’re the best organizations figure out that greatness is not built on one person. It’s built on the backs of teamwork and the best organizations figure out how to bring in senior leadership early on so that founders can go out and spend time on fund-raising and strategy that they have really strong, um, boards of directors that help help them grow their organization. And they flipped that hierarchical pyramid on its head and put the staff up front because they realized that their staff are the ones that are on the front lines. Making an impact and have the closest connections, often to the beneficiaries, is really the key to their work. The final strategy is storytelling with purpose. I think we all have a tendency to listen Thio a Ted talk or ah, great political speech and think, Wow, that person is just a natural. But when I went out and talked with all of these leaders, the best storytellers spend a lot of time practicing their craft. I had one social entrepreneur tell me that her she she’s an Olympic athlete, and her Olympic sport is storytelling and speech making and because she could be speaking the word of God. But if it’s told in a boring way, then no one’s gonna listen to her and these leaders figure out that that organizations can have impact when they’re able to build a movement, and that comes with telling a good story and getting people on board. And it’s not just at the leadership level, is at every level of the organization, because these organizations realize that staff members, board members, beneficiaries and champions can all be brand ambassadors for their organizations. And so they work hard. Thio help them with their storytelling so that everybody can go out and be champions for the cause of the five strategies. And to me, what was most exciting about this research is that I kept waiting for someone to say, You know, it’s just charisma or grid. You are some sort of innate trait that makes an organization succeed or not, but no one said that on. In fact, it really came down Thio thes strategies that any non-profit can implement no matter what kind of resources they have at their fingertips. Kathleen Kathleen Way, It’s time for a break. I wanted to do the overview. Hang with me while, uh, what we take a break. It’s time for a break. Wagner. CPS. Does your accountant return your calls and emails that they keep up to their deadlines. Do you like them? You get along with them. Are the keeping mistakes to a minimum? If these aren’t all yeses, then maybe it’s time to look for a replacement. And, you know, a partner at an accounting firm. You know, partner Wagner, CPS. He’s eat duitz tomb. He’s been on the show a couple times. Check out wagon cps dot com. Then talk to you. Eat, See if they can help you out. Wagner cps dot com Now let’s go back to scale up and sustain. I want to do some of our live Listen, love. Okay, Kathleen, you are there, right? Yes, Absolutely. Okay. Wonderful. I feel like doing the live. Listen, I love a little early, so let’s shout out to Tampa, Florida. Would Ridge, New Jersey Woodbridge so consistent with the listening? I don’t believe it. Would you please identify yourself? Woodbridge, New Jersey. Please come forward. I want to shout you out in person. Um, New York, New York. Multiple New York, New York. We’ve got, uh, Charlotte, North Carolina live listener love by going after Charlotte and Jersey City, New Jersey. My, my uh, my dad’s my dad’s hometown. That’s where he was born on McAdoo F. Jersey City, New Jersey. Live listeners love to you. College station. Texas is with us. So our, uh Germany Boudin tog Seoul, South Korea on your haserot. Come. Zoho Mita, Mexico City. Yes. Mexico City, Mexico. We got multiple there. Good afternoon. Born a swat? Bona Bona Santa. That’s it. It’s Italy. When a start is is it leave with us born Asada. If you are, Tehran is with us and took a result. Japan and the United Kingdom live list here. Love to each of you. We’re gonna divide it up today. The other 2/3 are gonna come. Ah, a little later on. All right, Kathleen. Now you don’t You don’t like to go by, uh, Katie or Kate or Cather. Kay, You’re strictly a Kathleen girl. Is that right? My name Kathleen. Okay. No, Katie’s. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s talk about your journeys. I mentioned in when I read a little bit from the conclusion you’re parents were very active and promoted a spirit of giving when you were young. This is That seems to be the genesis of your interest in this hole in the whole sector. It was definitely an inspiration for me. I’m really lucky that I grew up in this amazing little small town in Napa, California and my parents were very involved in the non-profit Ah, sector. My dad was a community banker and my mom was a teacher, and they they served on dozens of non-profit boards throughout the year. So when I think about our weekends, we often spent time volunteering in soup kitchens or serving at the local medical clinic for low income workers. But our volunteer efforts didn’t end there. We we sat around the dinner table and talked about how organizations often struggle. So my parents were talking about fundraisers they were hosting. Thio. Try and help support an organization that was struggling to get the resource. Is that needed to do that important service work that were involved in this was actually this was dinner table conversation for you. Yeah, that’s you know that that’s that’s Ah, that’s not common, right? E didn’t know any different. I know, I know. Yeah, but you know, it’s not it’s not. I mean, I know you’ve realized that since then, but, uh, that’s a remarkable Okay, I’m sorry. It’s just That’s just remarkable as I was reading about you having these conversations with your parents about sustainability, even though that word we weren’t using that word. But that’s what you were talking about. Well, yeah, and it’s not that my family was very sophisticated. It’s just that they believed really strongly that there are people in our community who are not as fortunate as us and that it’s our duty to give back to those people, but that it’s not just about giving back Thio people who are less fortunate. It’s about making sure that the organizations that are supporting them are strong so that they can provide those important social services. That something that was very much a part of my upbringing. Yeah, that’s outstanding. Um, and let’s now come to the research that led you to the ah to the overview that you gave us earlier. What was Thea was the process for this? Lots of interviews. Yeah, So I really came at it because I had experienced this issue myself personally. When I graduated from law school, I I started my own small non-profit with a group of women in San Francisco called Spark. We engage young professionals and gender equality issues, and we also had this problem where we had a ton of buzz. In the beginning, we were growing our revenue every few months, doubling our annual budget. And then at a certain point, just when we were hitting our stride, we hit a wall and we couldn’t get the capital that we needed in the door, get to the next level and increase the impact that we wanted. So that was around the half a $1,000,000 mark, wasn’t it? Half a $1,000,000 for us, and for every for every non-profit it it could be different. But I have found that that half $1,000,000 mark is a really a critical state hump because it is a place that a lot of organizations struggled to get beyond that kind of like initial grant funding and initial seed capital to really get some more sustainable grants in the door. So to get back to your question about the process for me, and when I began teaching social entrepreneurship at Stanford wearing my research cap, I began looking at this question more critically. I developed a survey and sent it out Thio Ah, 1000 organizations in the United States that were in some of the top. There’s entrepreneurship portfolios like going green and a show CA in school. And so I heard back from them and I tested everything from, you know, with their social media better and helping them scale, or was it there impact measurement in the way that they were measuring impact? And I came up with some initial findings that I went out and tested and I got to go out and interview in person. Ah, 100 organization founders there they’re funders, their beneficiaries, their staff and really just asked them a key question, which is what is the secret to non-profit success? And the findings are based on the stories that they told me in those interviews. The, um the the parts that I wanna start to focus on, um, is that that early stage you call it testing testing ideas? Um, I I think of it as sort of, you know, mastering as much as you can. The the problem. Like trying to get your mind around what the problem is and testing solutions to it. Um, I Is it okay if I describe it that way. Absolutely. What I found in my research is that the best social entrepreneurs fall in love with the problem, not the solution. Well, it is a lot harder once you fall in love with that solution. Thio let it go even if it’s not working. But if we really focus on the problem, then you’re gonna be able Thio, figure out the best strategy to address the problem. You talk about ideation and and brainstorming and not allowing any solutions to be censored at at the early stages. Yeah, and that’s you know that is that this human-centered design theory that has come up but Stanford at the D school or in various capacities? It’s really just a fancy way of talking about problem solving and a process for understanding how to brainstorm ideas. Um, and it doesn’t really have to be fancy. I owe you an example. An organization that I interviewed It was wishbone, which is Ah crowdfunding site for low income kids who want thio have summer experiences in the arts are in Fillmore in cooking to help them following their follow their dreams. And when the organization started, they didn’t start by launching this huge website in this platform and investing a lot of money and then, you know, then find the kids they did it the other way around. They did a really low cost test to figure out whether the model would work. So, uh, the founder was a teacher for low income students in Los Angeles at the time. She assigned an essay to them and ask them to write about their passion. Then she took some of her favorite papers and she photocopied them. And she stuck them in a male in the mail with a stamp and sent them to her relatives and her friends to say, Would you fund these kids to be able to follow their passions in the summer? And she got a bunch of money from those people and she was able to send them to summer camps and to do internships and realized that there was really something there, and it was really just this kind of low cost testing in the beginning that helped her figure out what worked and what didn’t and helped her develop an engine that she could then grow to scale. And it is hard to to throw off solutions. I mean, you know, remove solutions, eliminate them. You know you feel like you’ve got some, um, resource is devoted to it, but the outcomes air just not coming, it’s It’s hard to throw off, throw them off, though, and start a family. A lot of work to overcome that a lot of organizations get stuck in that cycle for two reasons. One is because it’s really hard. Thio admit failure. So I think that’s a big problem in the sector is just getting more comfortable with failure? But because oftentimes these these programs are doing important work, and it’s not that they’re necessarily bad. Maybe not the most impactful they be. I’ll tell you a story of one really successful example of this an organization called Last Mile Health founded in Liberia Toe help Get health care for some of the poorest communities there to decrease their mortality rates had when it started 13 different programs everything from women’s health programs, Thio AIDS programs, helping patients with HIV AIDS and as they started to grow, they realized that the program that was having the biggest impact was this program that was helping bring community based care to the rural areas of Liberia. So there were no doctors there. There were people who had to walk, sometimes 12 13 hours to get to the capital city on, and they had very few doctors serving millions of people. And so these community health care workers were able to give them the treatment that they needed, sometimes using cell phone service, t get care remotely. And, as it turned out, because it was so successful, they decided they made the very hard decision of closing down all these other programs that were very good programs but just weren’t having that kind of level of impact they wanted to see. And when the Ebola crisis hit in 2012 that was absolutely critical because they had focused their efforts on these community health care workers. Those community health care workers were able to prevent a global health crisis, so I can’t think of a better story. You know that they really because they were able to focus their energy on a program that was working, they were ableto have massive impact and so I think we all have to keep that kind of end goal in mind when we’re when we’re doing this, that it’s really about maximizing the potential of the impact that we can have. And let’s talk about measuring that impact. Um, let’s start with the distinction between your outputs and your outcomes or your impact. Well, what I found is that a lot of organizations tend to focus on the outcome on the on the output those air, the Vanity Mac tricks that are very easy. Thio T. C. So, for example, how many people are participating in your programs, or how many people are coming to your website to get social services? But ultimately, it’s not showing how the programs are having change on their life, their long term outcomes. It might even be something physical, like how many, uh, backpack kits we put together for homeless outreach? Yeah, I think. Then what is the home of the people do with them? And how did that change their lives? Right and does not change their lives so that you get out of homeless. Does it really the ultimate goal? Um, and so this is something that I think a lot of organizations struggle with, because non-profit leaders are not data scientists, and sometimes it can be overwhelming to think about, Like, how do you measure outcomes? How do you measure the ripple effect of providing that backpack to a homeless youth and what that does to get him in the door to a shelter that does that, help him ultimately get a job, Um, and and ultimately, get him off the streets. That’s a really hard path to follow. But you don’t have to be a data scientist, and it doesn’t have to be so hard. And in the book, I give a lot of really tangible strategies that non-profit organizations can use the help figure out what are the long term outcomes and get past these vanity metrics that just make us feel good about our impact but aren’t really telling us whether we’re making progress toward the ultimate goal. Kathleen, we just have about a minute or so before next break. Um, talk a little about the ah, using this data to help you tell your story. Yeah, that was something that I saw over and over again. Is we have a situation where 75% of non-profits collect data, but only 6% of them feel like they really know what to do with that data on the best non-profits. Figure out how to get it into bite size chunks of information that someone can easily digest in just a few minutes. And that could be whether you’re a small organization or whether you’re a huge organization. It really just comes down to those bite-sized pieces of information. Indulge me while we take another break. You need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for non-profits. Simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your own accounting software? QuickBooks. Quicken Turbo Cash Workday zoho Patriot No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think that was That may have been one too many nose, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you cannot. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial made for non-profits. You’ll find that on the listener landing page at tony dot m. A slash Cougar Mountain. Now time for Tony’s Take two. How about a little, as we learned as children, you know, share, share? That’s fair. How about sharing non-profit radio? Do you know someone who do you know? Let’s let’s let’s be in the affirmative. Who do you know that order. Be listening to non-profit radio. Someone who works for another non-profit works for your own non-profit eyes on a board, someone who’s a boardmember board members, great listeners to get a lot of good feedback from board members. Um, you know how good this show is. You’ve been listening your subscriber or you’re just sampling. Either way, you’re getting value from it. Share the value share share. That’s fair. That’s what I learned in third grade. When I was never shared that I wouldn’t share anything a little trouble game, You know where you popped the thing in the middle and then you move. The wooden used to be long ago. You move the wooden pegs along yet to get into the center. I never would share. I would just play all four or four parts for myself, but that’s that’s in the past. Now we know that sharing is good, So who can you share non-profit radio with? Please do. Let’s let’s expand the flock. Bring more into the family and I thank you very much for sharing non-profit radio. Let’s go back to Kathleen Kelly, Janice and scale up and sustain. Let’s let’s continue with the podcast Pleasantries. He was surprised. I divided it up. We say, on the heels of the live Listen, love has to come. The podcast pleasantries. Well, the heels a little longer this time. It’s a stiletto this time, Um, podcast. Pleasant feast are over 12,000. Listening in the time shift. The vast majority of our audience is there. And I’m thank you’il thankful that you are with us. Pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our AM and FM affiliate station listeners throughout the country. Thank you so much for being with us. I’m grateful that your station includes us in their weekly schedule. And I’m glad that you are listening on the, um on the terrestrial on the terrestrial side, the AM and FM affections to the affiliate listeners. Thank you very much. Kathleen Kelly. Janice. Thank you. You’re welcome. You’re still there, right? Yes, I’m here. Okay. Cool. Um, I noticed you, uh, is going back to your parents. You You dedicated the book to your parents and you say, for my parents who taught me the value of citizenship how do you define that citizenship? What do you think of as a citizenship. Well, for me, I’ve been raised with this idea that we all have a duty to give back to making the world a better place. And so we all have the capacity to make impact in some way. And to me, that’s really exciting. And I think getting even Maur and more prevalent I acknowledge that not everybody was is lucky to have been raised with that mentality as I was, although I’m sure there are others who had those really important dinner conversations about social impact where No, no, I’m not sure how caught prevalent toyour, but more and more. What I see with my students at Stanford when I see the next generation is that there is this changing mentality that non-profit work used to be just about writing a check to a foundation or thio non-profit and then being on your way, people want to roll up their sleeves. Now they want to get involved. Non-profit work is no longer relegated. Thio. You know when you leave the office at 5 p.m. That millennials are thinking about how can they make a difference in their work in making the word world a better place? Whether that is using their skills to do pro bono work, or whether that e-giving back through donations and getting others involved in like minded causes. To me, this is really exciting because it’s increased the potential for all of us. Thio make an impact in the world because we’re thinking about social change in a in a really different way. But it’s also really exciting for non-profits because there’s an opportunity for non-profits to capitalize on that. And I think too many non-profits out there are operating in this old fashioned model where they’re seeking donations. Maybe they have, you know, an annual event or an annual dinner where they bring people together for a long program and, uh, over dinner. And then that’s it. They collect their money, and then they get back to them the next year when it’s time for the dinner again. But people don’t want that. Donors don’t want that they want to be engaged, and they want to feel like they’re making an impact. And so the onus is on the non-profits to really think about how to help donors get involved, and ultimately that will lead Thio. I think more funding for organizations as well. You encourage non-profits to think about earned income, recognizing that it may not fit in every situation, that there might be non-profits where it’s not appropriate. But let’s talk about the potential for earned income and howto explore it well. I am keenly aware, as someone who was trained as a human rights lawyer that not all causes air suited for earned income. Human rights work is a perfect example of someone cannot afford the bus fare to get to the courthouse in the first place. They can’t afford to pay a lawyer for their rights. Many organizations are going to rely on philanthropic capital to fill that gap, and that is important. And that’s okay. But what I found in my research is that when possible, the organizations that are able to bring in earned income are going to be ableto have this kind of level of sustainability that helps them get through the hard times. Ah, lot of organizations talked about the recession in 2008 went so many grantmaking organizations pulled funding that they had already promised this was money that organizations were relying on, but their endowments had gone down and paint with the down Jones, and so they weren’t able to provide that really important funding and the organizations that had earned income sources, like a fee for service model or ah, model where they were selling products, those air the organizations that had the fuel to get them through that time when they didn’t know where their next philanthropic check was coming from. So it’s something that I think all non-profits need to at least consider as they develop their funding model, are their sources of her an income that can help grow the organization and and be willing to experiment with those. Absolutely. You also encourage a ah multiyear fund-raising plan. So it’s a little about what you’re going to that I think so many organizations think about fund-raising, like filling a bathtub with a teaspoon. It’s painful. You’re putting the water in a teaspoon by teaspoon, and then at the end of the year, when you start a new budget cycle, you drain the bathtub and you start over again. That is a really painful way to approach fund-raising, and what the best organizations do is they think about fund-raising on a multiyear strategy so they make sure that their grants when possible or multiyear grants so that there looking at funding 3 to 5 years out and not just here in a year, and then they help educate their donors on the importance of that. So not just not just foundations, but also individual donors who can contribute on a year to year level. And when you set that culture into motion, it helps you think much bigger about the prospects for fund-raising, as opposed Thio from a place of scarcity, that mentality of scarcity. It is him. There’s a lot of not just organizations, but people. They just they feel like the they aren’t going to get what they need. It really does. And I hate to use that example because I think it’s really easy, you know, as a researcher to say, just think bigger and non-profits I can think is because they wanted. That doesn’t mean that the funding is gonna come in the door. But I do notice there was one funder that I interviewed who said You can tell the difference between the organization when you ask them the question. What would you do if you had $10 million and the ones that are able to answer that question right off the bat. Those were the ones that are going to go big because they’re the ones that are thinking in that way and that have a plan and are and believe that they can get there. And so I think it’s really it is really about mentality in many ways. Yeah, all right, OK, so we need to overcome that. We need to have the courage to think that’s a $10 million level, absolutely, and don’t need to be thinking bigger, too. I mean, go both ways, and that’s your responsibility to help your donors think that way. Rate. Imagine what we could do if we had $10 million. Imagine how many lives we could touch inspire those donors to be a part of the solution. That is really what it’s all about. Collaboration. You mentioned it earlier when you were, ah, giving us the eloquent overview. Um, let’s let’s talk about the collaboration delegation. Strong leaders are not afraid to pass tasks onto others. It’s really critical, and organizations cannot succeed without a really strong team. The story that I love that really illustrates this is of Kiva dot org’s. I mentioned earlier that crowdfunding platform to support small businesses in the developing world, using donorsearch Unnie from premier from primarily United States but also now all around the world. And this organization started right around the same time that I co founded a spark. And so I I got to see this firsthand competition. Yes, well, they were in a competition, but you could benchmark against. I guess you were well, yeah, and and it was really amazing story because Jessica Jackley and Matt Flannery, the founders, were on Oprah Winfrey. They were featured in Bill Clinton’s e-giving book and were featured on The Oprah Show. That income that didn’t come for you as co founder of Spark? No, as much like the way I saw what happened for them, they raised $11 million overnight. After being on the Oprah show, they they literally crashed their servers and and we’re no longer able to accept funds. And so overnight they had to think about leadership in a very distributed way because they needed all hands on deck in order to distribute all of those funds that they had received until now is an organization they have 100 employees and 500 volunteers around the world. There, keep a fellows go into the field. Thio, Thio, follow-up on the Grants and Thio ensure that they’re going where they say they’re going and Thio tell those stories and catalog those stories. We rely on all those volunteers and all those staff to be on the front lines. And so they have strategies to make sure that those people, their staff, feel empowered to support the mission of the organization. So an example is they allow their staff to develop their own impact metrics so the staff can feel connected to how their work in particular is Contributing to the mission of the order is excellent. Okay, it’s not. It’s not top down right where we’re talking about the antithesis of top down leadership. Absolutely. I mean, even their feedback model. They have horizontal feedback mechanisms so that they’re not giving and receiving feedback in a top down way. And that really helps set into motion this culture of horizontal value for all employees. All right, Kathleen, we take our our third break. Um, I want to remind listeners the book is social startup success. If you’re listening live. You could be cooking right through now to Barnes and Noble or Amazon. Be buying it while I take this break time for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your work, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find all that at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for scale up and sustain Kathleen the, uh, the other part of collaborative leadership. Besides, um, strong, strong senior leadership is a strong active board. What do you like to see there? Well, a lot of organizations start out with what I call in the book of Friends and Family Board, where they know they have to legally have a board of directors. And so they go out and they recruit anyone who’s close to them. Thio help them with their organization, and this leads to a lot of problems because friends and family are not always the most suited to help you grow an organization they don’t always necessarily have the skills and often time friends and family. Tell you what, you want to hear those two really pushing you to be your best Not gonna challenge you Tell me they’re not gonna challenge you. They’re not gonna challenge you. Yes, exactly. And so and so and so really what I saw. The organization that scaled had a robust organise a robust organizational board that was suited for the skills that they needed and the talents that they needed to grow the organization. And even if it meant having to go through that brutal process of moving from the friends and family board to the more robust kind of governance board my husband always that we have three children and my husband always likes to say, I can’t fire my mother in law. You know, it’s a lot easier sometimes. Hire a baby sitter. Well, that should be Your job. Should be firing your own mother. It’s much easier for you to do. No one wants to have to fire their mother. So don’t put your mother on your board. That’s the lesson, Um, and and really getting it right. The first time is the best recipe for success. But there are strategies that I talk about in the book for how to move past the friends and Family board to a governance board. That’s really gonna help challenge you and get you through the strategic planning process to help you build a theory of change so that you can show your solution to the problem in a logical and impactful way. Board relationships Very tough for lots of organizations. The relationship between the CEO and the board. Sometimes it’s a micro managing board. Even those even the relationship between staff and the board can sometimes be difficult. Um, intra board relationships. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of potential for problems there. There’s a lot of potential for problems, and there’s a lot of potential for solutions. Well, one leaves you doesn’t have to be that hard. One of the key things that I talk about in the book for developing a really strong board is putting the policies in place. You’re very clear about what the expectations are of your board. I think a lot of these challenges come in when it’s just not clear whose role is what and what boardmember Zehr supposed to do. So let me give you an example. Organizations that responded to MAE survey said that only 15% of their boards are involved in fund-raising. When asked what they would like their boards to doom, or of 66% of the executive director, said they would like their boards to be doing more friendraising. So that’s a huge disconnect. And I would, I would ask, those organizations will, what have you done to communicate with your board that you would like them to be doing more fund-raising? What have you done to establish what they’re fund-raising goals are in the board policy. What have you done to support their fund-raising efforts? Have you provided events that they could bring their contacts to? Have you given them the stories that they need to tell at a cocktail party so that they know how to make an elevator pitch? If you want your board to be involved in friendraising, you need to lay the foundation to make that happen. So I think a lot of board frustrations that executive directors have with their boards can easily be alleviated by just laying the foundation with clear policies and clear expectations, like the model of collaboration that you were talking about. You know, bottom up. You encourage that also in buy-in storytelling. And, um, I know, I’m not sure if if you had Well, all right. I was gonna say my favorite part was the storytelling part, but if you had to pick, that was my favorite. I’m not saying that’s the most important. Is it possible for you to say which of these and we are gonna talk about storytelling very moment very shortly. Um, which of the five areas like, most important. Are you willing to rank them like that? Or I just think they’re all equally. It’s like asking me to choose My My favorite child thinks they are all important, but I will say that that that kind of they do. I write about them in the order that I write about them because I think that they do. They do lay the foundation for success in that order. So you can’t tell a good story until you have the deed I’ve and the qualitative stories to show for that. And so that impact measurement and that testing process is really key to get there. So you did. You did think through the sequence of, uh that you were gonna, um, present these in the book? Yeah. Sequence is very important. Okay. Non-profit metoo tested the war haphazard, but you thought through when you’re writing a book is different. So you you actually you thought through this. Okay, I’m gratified to hear that. Okay, um, so let’s talk about the story telling you, like, again, bottom up. Absolutely. It has thio involved everyone around you. There’s an organization I interviewed called ideo dot or GE and they use design thinking thio help non-profits develop innovative solutions in their work. And they have this thing that they they implement on in their staff meetings called storytelling roulette where they spin the wheel like a wheel of fortune. They they spin it and then randomly, it will land on a story and they’ll pick a staff person in advance. Who on the spot has to tell that story as if they were pitching it to a donor or a potential partner. I’m not because a every staff member hasn’t necessarily been involved in all of those projects and doesn’t necessarily have that institutional memories of the way to build institutional memory. It’s also a way to build skills. Storytelling is not something that just happened. Storytelling happens with a lot of practice and, uh, and a lot of opportunities to practice. One of my dear friends, Nadine Burke Harris, has a Ted talk with three million views, and she runs an organization called the Center for Youth. Wellness focuses on toxic stress. When I interviewed her and asked her about that Ted talk, she said she practiced it for six months. This 10 minute talk and she said by the end of those six months her husband could have given the Ted talk for her because she had practiced it so many times in front of him. So I think it’s important that we remember to make the space for that practice, not only for ourselves as leaders of organizations, but also for all of our teams and our board, and even benefit. Yes, I wanted to go to the beneficiaries. I was, um you’re so you’re so ah, comprehensive. I was hoping you were gonna leave beneficiaries, and then I would sound smart and say no, but what about beneficiaries? But, um, yeah, well, we just have about a minute and 1/2 left before we wrap up, so talk about encouraging beneficiaries to tell. Well, I think when you’re working with beneficiaries to tell stories, I think there’s ah lot of things that organizations need to do to be very conscious of what it means to put a beneficiary in that position and to set them up for success. So it’s not always appropriate. And I think organizations have to do a lot of thinking to make sure, for example, that beneficiary is well, past and being part of the program, that they are in a better place to be able to tell that story. But there really is no more powerful story for unorganised ation to tell them someone who has successfully made their way through the program and has created a better life because of that outcome. And so we talked earlier about outputs versus outcomes. That is an outcome when you can show that someone’s life has changed, and hearing that from from the beneficiaries own mouth is really going to be your most powerful sales person for the organization, those air so compelling the, uh, I mean those could be riel tear jerkers literally. Um, it’s and they don’t have to be high production value, but they could be very, very compelling. Very, very moving. Absolutely. All right. We have to leave it there. I want to thank you very much. Kathleen Kelly. Janice. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Tony. It’s been my absolute pleasure. The book. Get the book for Pete’s sake. We just did a romp through it. You need the book Social startup success. Have the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference next week? I just don’t know. You know it’ll be worthwhile if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you. Find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Witness E. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com But koegler Mountain Software, Denali, fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, huh? Mmm. Do you run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, The entrepreneurial Web Tune in every Friday at noon Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. 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