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Nonprofit Radio for November 9, 2020: How To Work In Uncertainty & Low-Cost Fundraising Software

My Guests:

Gail Bower & Karen Eber Davis: How To Work In Uncertainty

A June study of nonprofits has lessons for now and our future. The election may be settled, but there are unknowns afoot: reaction to the election; the pandemic; a divided federal government; federal stimulus; racial reckoning; climate change. The study’s co-authors shepherd us. They’re Gail Bower at Bower & Co. Consulting LLC and Karen Eber Davis at Karen Eber Davis Consulting.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris Bernard & Amadie Hart: Low-Cost Fundraising Software

 

Chris Bernard and Amadie Hart, the co-authors of Tech Impact’s new software selection guide, talk us through: What these systems offer; how to compare them; and how to select the best one for your needs. Chris is from Tech Impact and Amadie is at Hart Strategic Marketing.

 

 

 

 

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[00:03:18.74] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. By the time you hear this, the election will be settled. It damn well better be. I hope you were okay. Going through it. I was immersed in the horse race and probably too much, which means I still am as I’m recording. But by the time you’re listening, it looks like it’ll be over. I hope we’re both OK. Be sure to take care of yourself, please. And others, I will do the same. Let’s each be understanding of what we and those around us have been through. It’s been a crisis, a trauma, and it’s time to start healing. I know there’s a lot of work and a long journey ahead. No doubt if we each take care of ourselves and have compassion for others, we’ll be starting that journey on the right foot. Let’s get started together. Is non profit radio still your favorite abdominal podcast? I just love that word. Why say weekly? When you can say abdominal, force your friends into the dictionary, I’ll start a campaign to replace the word weekly maybe not. No campaigns for a while. Oh, I’m extra glad you’re with me. I get slapped with a diagnosis of politico phobia. If you lobbied me with the idea of missing today’s show How Toe Work in Uncertainty. A June study of nonprofits has lessons for now and our future. The election may be settled, but there are unknowns afoot. The pandemic reaction to the election, a divided federal government, federal stimulus, racial reckoning, climate change. Need I continue. The study’s co authors shepherd us there, Gail Bauer and Karen Ebert Davis and low cost fundraising software guide Chris Bernard and Amidi Heart. The co authors of Tech Impacts New Software Selection Guide. Talk us through what these systems offer, how to compare them and how to select the best one for your needs. So stop asking, what’s the best system? Although I did Antonis take two. My November webinar were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content For nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives Prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month here is had a work in uncertainty. It’s my pleasure to welcome Gail Bauer and Karen Ebert Davis to non profit radio. They are co authors of the study. What’s Really happening with non profit revenue? They’ll. Bauer is founder and president of Bauer and Co. Consulting LLC, a revenue strategy firm that helps nonprofits become self sufficient by developing reliable sources of revenue. Trained as a futurist, she studies where society is headed and what trends may impact her clients. Businesses Gail is author of the book How to Jump Start Your Sponsorship Strategy. In Tough Times, She’s at gale Bauer dot com and at Gale Bauer. Welcome, girl.

[00:03:47.14] spk_2:
Thank you. Hi, tony. Good

[00:03:48.39] spk_0:
to have you back. Thank you. Karen Ybor Davis and her firm, Karen Bieber, Davis Consulting Guide Organizations To discover propulsion tools to grow their profits and performance. She helps clients create dynamic partnerships and make an extraordinary impact. Her book is Let’s raise non profit Million’s Together. She’s at k e d. Consult dot com Karen, welcome to the show.

[00:04:14.26] spk_1:
Thank you, tony. It’s wonderful to be here.

[00:04:16.34] spk_0:
Pleasure. Pleasure. Have you both? Um, whoever wants to start, I don’t know with, uh, introducing the study and and a little about your timing and methodology. Who’s best?

[00:05:11.64] spk_1:
Karen. Go ahead. Sure about March this year we were looking at concerns and issues in the sector. Gail and I have been working together on different projects serving the sector for two years, and we realized that things were happening so rapidly. We didn’t really have a good handle on it, and we couldn’t go to meetings and meet someone and find out what was going on. So we said, Let’s go ask them questions And so we created this survey really curious about what was happening with individual income streams. There was this blatant, um, pictures of information and that things were just shutting down. All income was off and that yet that’s fine. But what was really happening? And from that, we put the survey out asking about individual income streams and what was happening. And the data was not surprising. About 125 people responded, but was fascinating to us, where the comments people made in the questions that were not multiple choices and that’s where we really have been still mining a lot of interesting things when I looked at it again, fresh, there’s new fresh things to see even though this data was collected in June.

[00:05:41.74] spk_0:
Okay? And Gail So I see. Ah, throughput of this is really the uncertainty that people were facing in. Well, you published in June. So I Karen, you said you were surveying what? I guess March, April May. I’m

[00:05:58.25] spk_1:
sorry. We surveyed in June, and then we came out in July.

[00:06:24.14] spk_0:
Okay, I see. So June, still early in the pandemic, Dale. Um, but uncertainty remains. And and now we’ve Now we’ve added the election to the pandemic and economic uncertainty and social justice upheaval. Uh, there’ve been more murders of black folks at the hands of police. So there’s Yeah. Uncertainty.

[00:06:25.31] spk_2:
Yeah, lots of uncertainty. When will there be a vaccine? When can we all get together again, et cetera, And all the other topics and all the, you know, all the details and sub issues of all of those that that still remain in our culture. So, yes, there’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s frankly, always a lot of uncertainty, but right now it’s at a fever pitch and times

[00:06:48.26] spk_0:
times five or six.

[00:08:45.54] spk_2:
Yeah, Exactly. And things were just shifting and changing so rapidly. It is really hard to get a handle on things. So I think one of the big differences between then and now when people completed the study and now is the biggest worry was Oh, my gosh, the pandemic. What does this really mean for us? You know, back in the beginning, you may recall people are thinking and we’ll be out of the office for two weeks and we’ll come right back. Well, now we know it’s gonna be more like a year and a half or so, um, we don’t really know. So now we’ve started to see people sort of settle in and and know that they have to continue operating. They can’t just stop. They have to continue operating, um, in the face of uncertainty. And so we’re starting to see people, you know, really? Take, I I would say one of three pathways count. I’m curious to see what you are seeing. And and tony, I’m sure you have an interesting perspective as well. But I think there are some people that have, uh, strategies from before that still have some merit. They might have had to update them or makes, um, you know, course corrections, but they’re still going strong with what? They’re what they’re doing. Um, some people and I’m talking about, in particular with revenue. Um, some people have had to make wholesale change, for example, organizations that are really dependent on in person revenue, like like concerts and, you know, performances and Gallas and things like that. It’s very difficult to be in in, you know, together and digital works to an extent. And then there are people that are really scrambling to figure out how they’re going to shift their revenue. Ah, lot of times, many of these, maybe your listeners, they run smaller organizations who may not have their footing. Yet they may not have developed repeatable, reliable revenue, which is really one of the hallmarks of being an unsustainable position. And so so this. This is a group that has to be really deliberate and thoughtful about their business model to make sure that they’re being creative. And they’re being thoughtful about the revenue sources that they developed. But they make sure that they understand how their business model functions so they take on the right

[00:09:15.84] spk_0:
forms of revenue. And Karen, I guess these these three sort of cohorts, maybe our sets of of of leaders, uh, emerged from those narrative comments that you were talking about.

[00:10:42.04] spk_1:
Well, we really saw that 0.3 kind of leaders, people who were still in a panic mode like Oh my gosh, and just kind of like whining. And it’s difficult in a survey because you’re taking a survey in any 15 minutes and you might have just had disastrous news. And so a little whining would be natural, appropriate, but the collection of the information and then there was these people who are kind of in this phase. We’re, like, really factual. This is is the tires of my car all flat? What am I going to do to fix it? And then this third group that was moving what we call the solving cells they were already moving into some like, Let’s try this. Let’s try that. So the e think in some ways we’re all we’re all those places, depending on what’s happening, we move through some of that, um, post election. Maybe we thought we were gonna have a plan, and all of a sudden it’s like, Oh, my gosh, how did this happen? Or where we at on Dhe then was like. Okay, now, this is what is what do I do with it? So it’s a begins to be a resilience model. The challenge is, is if you get stuck in any of those places if if you are just, you know, totally in the fax, we can’t operate. We can’t do it. We can’t that that’s a challenge, because you’re not gonna You’re not gonna make it. You’ve got to find some way to try to survive. You may not make it anyway, but trying something that makes logical sense, um is, I think, imperative.

[00:11:07.04] spk_0:
Alright. And that’s ideal for kicking us off with. With the last 25 or 30% of your your study is devoted to what? You know, how do we go forward? What? What’s the value of this info for your organizations? And by the way, let’s shout out where folks can get a copy of the study. Where is that? Karen? Okay, I’ll tell you what. I’m gonna talk to Karen. So, Gail, why don’t you look that up? That’s okay. Yeah, well, we want folks to be able to get this because we waken, uh, take off some of the stuff that I would like most to talk about, but there’s a lot more in the report. So, Karen, um, you the first thing you suggest is taking care of yourself, taking care of your organization. I’ve had other guests say the same thing, but it merits, you know, self care, organizational care. What, your ideas there.

[00:11:43.34] spk_1:
And And I would say part of that self care is recognizing you need more thinking time thinking

[00:11:44.10] spk_0:
is thinking is highly underrated. Yeah, terribly underrated thinking. Thinking is valuable,

[00:12:41.14] spk_1:
amazing and and define the place in time to say I am not gonna put out a fire for the next hour or whatever it takes. And I want to think about what it feels like. Maybe in six months. One of the re reading of some of the data is we were in June. We were so much right now. We were so much in the present. This is happening now and there was no there was no discussion of the election in June. There was no discussion off what the new year would bring, what we’ll be doing in 2021 that was six months away. Not all of us are into the future. But some of us should have been talking about it. So that ability to self care to take some time to think as well as toe recognize no one has been on this path before. No one has the answers. You don’t either. But you know your organization best and prioritize your brilliance about that.

[00:13:17.14] spk_0:
Okay? And organization Care to taking care of those who work with you for you, above you. Below you, you know? E feel like because it z things are so uncertain. Way need to take care of. We do need to take care of each other. You know, we have to go beyond the normal for some nurturing for some listening for some empathy, compassion. I feel I’m doing that. And I feel it in others to, you know, more. More more questions about How are you doing? How are you doing? You know, not just how are you? Like we used to Do you know before March? How you doing? You know, everything’s fine. Yeah, I’m good. Yeah. Yeah, more. I mean, there’s there’s more depth to that and and, you know, and beyond.

[00:13:38.84] spk_1:
Yeah, and in some ways, we have time we’re no longer running. We’re no longer commuting. Most of us are many of us. We are no longer running. Two meetings across town toe have lunch as a networking meeting. That would take three hours our day. And so we’re working more hours. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal this last week mentioning how many more hours people are working and it’s going to work on dhe yet we still have family obligations. So taking care of the people. Your staff, um, is really critical. I’m working with a group of CEOs, and the conversation they wanna have next is how to keep your non profit staff saying in the midst of a pandemic. So how do you help a staff member who has childcare full time at home?

[00:14:32.14] spk_0:
So, yeah, we need to be good to each other and understanding. Empathic compassionate. Yeah. Um, So, Gail, I didn’t mean to be the directive male testosterone burdening. But when I said look this up for you know? So, yeah, you give you homework while I was talking to Karen s. Oh, where can we find this study?

[00:14:36.54] spk_2:
I made a quick, short length. That’s not even that short but tiny u r l dot com forward slash revenue study results

[00:14:44.94] spk_0:
Okay, so it one more time,

[00:14:52.70] spk_2:
I put it in the chat box here to revenue a tiny URL dot com slash revenue study results.

[00:15:31.54] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help you build relationships with journalists because of our relationship started and nurtured by turn to the New York community. Trust got to features in The Wall Street Journal. That’s the value of the pre existing relationships Turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Pan, a Pento, used to be an editor at The Chronicle of Philanthropy. The return hyphen two dot ceo Now back to how to work in uncertainty You’re you have ideas about revamping strategy.

[00:18:47.54] spk_2:
Yeah, well, so as I was starting to say, with with your business model, a lot of organizations are continuing with revenue forms that they had in this study. We found, um, interestingly, some conflicting information. Whereas some respondents found that individual giving was decreased, uh, or they expected it to decrease over time. Another group found that that was their shining light, that it was the form of revenue that was going to increase eso, you know? So I guess it’s sort of just depends where people are in their life cycles and where they are in their strategies and so on and so forth. But one of the hallmark mindsets that we saw that came from this are, as Karen said, the ones who had moved along the scale of resilience and who were taking a very positive mindset. Who were they believed all out in their mission and in their abilities to get the word out about their mission and all the, you know, all the good work that their organizations were doing and to think really creatively about how to move forward. And so, in thinking about a new organizations business model A Z, I mentioned earlier organizations need to be thinking about what forms of revenue have the most staying power now. And how might they want to expand the revenue? What other you know, are there other sources that could be coming into the fold? But they have to do it again very thoughtfully for, uh, for how the organization works. So a business model is not just revenue that comes in and expenses that go out. That’s a budget. Ah, business model is actually the system about how you know how the business side of your organization actually operates. So, for example, um, corporate sponsorship is a big piece of my expertise, and people call me all the time with questions about sponsorship and getting some help with that. And I’m always listening for the right conditions that are going to help them create success. And I try to guide people when I’m hearing conditions that won’t be successful. So, for example, every business model has some key activities key relationships that are important for success. Sponsorship, for example, requires an active marketing operation, a strategy, a set of operations, an audience to be successful. It requires staff and organizational competence, because if you don’t have anyone that can actually go out and talk to a corporation and you know, initiate relationships to develop them, then you know you’re not gonna have success there. And so it sounds like a pretty obvious peace. But, uh, you know, organizations are under a lot of pressure from the board members. Let’s try this. Let’s try that Somebody that I spoke to recently said Oh, well, you know, our board member thinks we oughta have sponsorship. And when we talked further, three organization doesn’t really have a marketing push. Uh, it’s maybe not even appropriate that they would have a consumer market being pushed. They certainly don’t have events that would be viable. Sources of revenue and the work that they do. It was very intimate, very personal. And so I just said to her, I’m not really sure that sponsorship is the right fit for you. She was relieved. She was relieved to hear that, because now her brain is freed up and she can focus on revenue sources that are gonna be the right fit. So we are all four. And Karen, I’m sure you would echo this. We’re all for people being creative. But don’t spend your wheels on creativity where you know, you have roadblocks right in front of you. So you have to really make sure that your business model is the right fit for any form of revenue that you’re gonna pursue

[00:19:22.57] spk_0:
anything you wanna add. Thio?

[00:19:26.94] spk_1:
Yeah. Tell on opposite story. Because because it really depends on who you are and what kind of value you could bring to the market. So looking for your revenue in terms of what is our value, how can we bring it? Who needs that value? One of the woman people I work with, who is the CEO? They had been doing a lot of educational events, and we see the little bit of sponsorship well, their their revenue for those has just gone up tremendously. They recognize that the rate is a medical related thing. That the doctors who people who are promoting different health cures and their industry could no longer reach patients directly except through them. And so their ability to capitalize on that restriction inside of doctors offices like payday for them on dhe, they’ve taken advantage of it. So what may not be your neighbor friends? Non profit solution may indeed be your solution, and that’s matching that value that you have. And now maybe you can see new value with the value of what people are seeking and making those connections.

[00:20:32.10] spk_2:
That’s a good point, I think, to some of the other issues that you mentioned tony. So the racial justice issues, for example, that’s another, uh, that’s another, uh, point of leverage because obviously many nonprofit organizations are really devoted to racial justice issues, you know? Well, even before the incidents, the death of George Floyd this summer and, um, organizations that may not have had that as strongly on the radar certainly are more interested in that now. And that is a point of overlap with the corporate sector. We’re all saying that this is a really important issue. So there may be opportunities to have work funded or to expand audiences in the and in the, you know, in the colors of community. Ah, commune communities of color. Eso that people more people are being attracted to these missions and corporate sponsors. Sponsors can benefit from that as well, and can help, you know, joined the cause

[00:21:51.24] spk_0:
again. Let’s stay with you for your next idea is just basically keep. Just keep asking. Uh, including for for requests, planned gifts, But keep on asking your folks for for support,

[00:21:53.04] spk_2:
right? So, yeah, I mean, Mawr and more organizations are, you know, communicating with donors and communicating with supporters throughout the year. And, um, you know, there there has to be ah, lot of emotional mo mentum without causing donor fatigue at the same time. So these regular opportunities to be in touch with donors and to be, um, you know, engaging them in the mission, engaging them emotionally. And what’s happening, um, is what’s gonna really help bring that donor to the fold? An

[00:22:30.45] spk_0:
individual individual generosity was something that you highlight in the in. Early reports of the survey, as as a shining moment, are shining experience for a lot of non profits that their donors have come through for them. But of course, you got to keep asking so that give them the opportunity to come through for you.

[00:23:59.24] spk_2:
Yeah, I think a lot of ah lot of organizations in the beginning, uh, sort of panicked, not seeing where their mission fit in the big scheme of the pandemic on I know, I had several conversations like this with executive directors and leaders and the nonprofit sector that, you know, we need organizations of all stripes. Right now, we still need the full panoply, the full infrastructure of non profit service’s to help, you know, continue making our society better because, you know, there is such a ripple effect from all of these issues, from racial injustice from the pandemic and, you know, health care disparities and so on and so forth. So we need all the non profit infrastructure justice importantly and therefore non profits have an opportunity to really update and update their messaging update the ways that they’re talking about some of these really topical issues and how their cause their mission is to attack or solve a certain portion of it and keep their organization in the spotlight. So it’s really important for this regular communication at the same time, while acknowledging that some people may not have the means to give at this time because, you know, we do have a you know, a problem with the recession. At the same time,

[00:24:07.81] spk_0:
you need to be understanding but still straightforward about what your needs are. Yeah, not not humble about it. Yeah, Karen, let’s go back to you for looking at risks. Uh, this it’s It’s sort of running through what we’ve been talking about a little bit, but just make it explicit, you know, looking at risks to potential revenue.

[00:24:27.44] spk_1:
Absolutely. I think everyone woke up and realized that their earned revenue wasn’t a sure thing was it was one of the first biggest learnings. Um, but they’re also going back to the donors that that donors were like the heroes of this because they showed you people loved you. Um, one of the useful things your listeners conduce oh, is to write down all the things that are worrying them and look at the ones that they really can control. Um, you know, they cannot control um, when we get the vaccine. I don’t think unless they’re variant vaccines on dhe, they can control a lot of things they can’t control when it will really be there. Special. Most favorite people will come out and come to their meetings again. We don’t know, but they can control how often they talked to those donors and what they offer them bring them and share and how they provide that value. So getting out and saying, My gosh, this whole list of things, it’s like, Oh, my gosh, it’s so scary. Well, a number of those you can’t do anything about, but the ones that you can are the ones you can focus on and and and getting real clear where you have leverage with your time and energy and effort, and then really, in terms of your revenue.

[00:25:31.54] spk_0:
Now, that’s excellent. You know, Look, focus on what you can control and, you know, obsessed privately about that which you can’t. But you’re you’re non profit. Needs not to be going down the path of, you know, What are we gonna do about when the vaccine comes out? You know, our Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. Um, let’s stay with you for a digital You. I think a lot of non profit have already figured out some of this, but there’s There may be more work to be done around enhancing your digital, um presents skills.

[00:26:04.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. Digital is gonna be with us. We are not going back. You know, I just don’t think every board’s gonna ever meet every time at once a month in person again, I think we’re gonna have selective. So we’re gonna have a hybrid world. And so we all need to have some growth in digital skills. And it’s well worth watching the zoom videos and getting getting up to date on those and getting some skills because you need to figure out how to do breakout rooms and poles and all those things. But that aside, digital is becoming one of the heroes of this experience to people are having events that were for their local people who could come in for the evening and comfort event. And all of a sudden, the people who are coming to events, it’s much larger in his national or statewide. And who knew that I was doing in Miami biz? Um, conference last week? And we have people from all over the state of Florida, and I’m thinking, Oh, it’s not Miami biz anymore. It’s statewide, And what does that mean? And who are you? And if you’re really good at digital, maybe that’s your revenue opportunity.

[00:27:06.74] spk_0:
Yeah, your events are no longer constrained by where you’re gonna host, huh? Where you’re going to rent a hotel ballroom or or by where your offices

[00:27:15.44] spk_1:
and your ticket prices might be very different.

[00:27:21.89] spk_0:
Yes, right, right. All right, Gail. Anything you want to add? Thio Digital Digital presence.

[00:27:39.49] spk_2:
Well, I just think that helping people focus on expanding their capabilities. Uh, and seeing you know, people may feel flummoxed about digital skills. Uh, e think I

[00:27:41.23] spk_1:
think you

[00:27:41.57] spk_4:
have been

[00:27:41.84] spk_2:
out to two ways e Karen around Karen. And

[00:27:46.75] spk_0:
don’t just pick your co authors. Pronunciation. Karen, you talk breaker.

[00:27:50.40] spk_1:
I know what she met.

[00:28:09.07] spk_0:
Okay, Perfect. Middle of the road. All right, I get about what part of the country are you in? Maybe that Z in Philadelphia. I’m from New York, New Jersey. I mean, I live in North Carolina now, but now, so that’s not the explanation. Yeah.

[00:28:09.77] spk_2:
Anyway, yeah, So people might be stumped about about gaining digital skills, But But if people could start to see that as an opportunity, I’m really an optimistic person. So trying to see some of these new changes in our world as positive as you know, new ways to communicate with people and that there are, you know, so many people figuring these technical, you know, technical skills out or these thes new capabilities out. So the goal might be, um, learning how to have new capabilities for the organization and continuing to expand resilience so that when you emerge from this period, whatever it is, however long it is, you’re stronger in that you have new capabilities. You’ve learned new ways to hold events or you learned new ways to market to people. I’m working with a client, right? now on really subsea financially expanding the way that they attract new people to the organization using all kinds of digital skills. And it’s really been fun. It builds on things that I already knew how to dio that they were sort of new to. But we’re all learning new things together about how toe how toe communicate with people when we can’t see them with limited budgets so that their organization can continue to grow The same organization also, um, expand. Like many organizations turned their in person event into a virtual one wants to have their virtual event in person next year. But they thought that there’s so much value about their virtual event that they’re going t o continue doing it. But for a very specific audience that may have less access to the in person one because of costs And

[00:29:56.41] spk_0:
probably so they have a digital component with camera camera, too, and live streaming

[00:30:02.64] spk_2:
exactly, exactly and and all kinds of other capabilities. So so it really you know, while this might be a difficult time and they’re all exhausted and they’re working so hard and doing so much, but by the time and there’s some other changes that we made digitally to that that we just realized. Yes, you’re like, Oh, my gosh, We’re gonna have all this new data. So? So making these commitments and these steps and he’s taking these actions now is gonna pay off later. So it’s, you know, we’re all slogging through and trying to find moments of joy through through this, you know, challenging time for everybody, but hopefully will all emerge stronger and with new capabilities and more resilient in the long run. And that’s the That’s the eye on the prize right now.

[00:30:48.84] spk_0:
Okay? No, Gale, you’re trained, is a futurist, and we’re recording on Wednesday, November 4th. So who’s gonna win the election?

[00:30:57.29] spk_2:
Futurist? The first thing futures learn is you don’t make predictions, okay? Yeah, exactly, But we

[00:31:06.02] spk_0:
already within the next. It’ll

[00:31:07.40] spk_1:
be a white male. What

[00:31:10.38] spk_0:
do you say?

[00:31:10.70] spk_1:
Yeah, it will be a white male

[00:31:12.43] spk_0:
male. Yeah,

[00:31:13.18] spk_2:
in their seventies. Yeah, hopefully

[00:31:18.24] spk_0:
the vice president will not be, um eso eso futurist. You don’t want to touch like the next 18 months. You have to go 18 months and out. Is that Is that like you have a boundary beyond within which you will not. Well, some some awareness or understanding off.

[00:31:36.84] spk_2:
Yeah, different futures focus on different time horizons. There’s some some futures that focus really long term. So, for example, there are colleagues of mine that might focus 10 50 years out and might advice, for example, depart Ah, highway department in a state that has a growing population so that they can figure out where to put highways. My focus tends to be shorter term because that’s what nonprofits really need help with eso the advice this week. Yeah, not this week. Yeah, look a little bit longer the next couple of years. Just take a look at all the all the trends that are happening and the impact of those trends. And, um and again, as Karen said, spend some time thinking, see what this might mean for yourselves and don’t get hung up about any one way or the other because the future hasn’t happened yet. Eso we wanna be thinking about all the possible futures and carve out your path where you want to go. But always stay alert. Toe all of these different trends and resilient Yeah, and be willing. Thio shift on a dime when you learn more information so that you are prepared for any threats and you have the opportunity to seize opportunities and you don’t get, you know, you don’t get caught under a nen coming wave that you hadn’t thought about. It just helps us some more creative and more resilient and more agile as we’re going through this.

[00:33:21.14] spk_0:
And you know that that sounds like a, you know, a lead into the to our sixth idea, which is considering new markets, new audiences. Um, So I’m gonna turn to Karen too. Sort of Take us out. And, uh

[00:34:04.23] spk_1:
Okay, So So it’s we kind of have referred to it in this conversation. People finding new ways. Andi, I think this is the crux of what the message is is what worked in January. Probably is never gonna work quite the same way again. And in some ways, that’s a good thing on and one of the people I work with, I am not going back. I’m not doing some of those things, so it’s an opportunity to shed some things on, then make room for the new possibilities. Who needs your value? Where can it be provided? How can you communicate that that that you have this value and that they should really invest in you to get it is really the the hub of finding new places.

[00:34:36.74] spk_0:
All right, that’s Karen Ibra Davis. She’s at K e d. Consult dot com and co author of the study. What’s really happening with non profit revenue is Gail Bauer, who remains a, uh, flummoxed futurist. She’s at gale Bauer dot com and at Gale Bauer study again is at tiny u r l dot com slash revenue Study results. Karen Gayle Thank you very very much for sharing.

[00:34:39.34] spk_2:
Thank you so much, tony.

[00:34:40.67] spk_1:
It’s been a pleasure.

[00:34:50.22] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Tony is take two my webinar. I’m hosting a free webinar. Start your plan to giving in 2021. Yes, I’m hosting Kind

[00:34:55.08] spk_1:
of

[00:36:55.95] spk_0:
nice hosting my own, No longer subjugated to the will of the outside hosts. Know which I’m Of course, I’m always grateful for I get so many invitations, I don’t have time to host my own. But so at this time I’m hosting my own webinar. No, no more subjugation. Uh, it’s a quick shot. We’re gonna do this in 50 minutes. What plan giving is how to identify your best prospects, where to start your plan giving program, how to market your new program. And, of course, I’m gonna leave plenty of time for questions, which is my favorite. I enjoy the questions a lot, so I hope you’ll ask a lot. We’re doing this quick shot on November 19th. Thursday Thursday, November 19th at three O’clock Eastern. You can sign up for the Free Webinar at planned giving accelerator dot com slash webinar. That number again planned giving accelerator dot com slash webinar. I hope you’ll be with me posting my own, that is tony. Stick to now. It’s time for low cost fundraising software guide I’m pleased to welcome the co authors of Tech Impacts. Consumers Guide to Low Cost Fundraising software. Amid the Heart is a contract writer and researcher for Tech Impacts, Ideal Wear and president of Heart Strategic Marketing. She has a wide range of experience helping nonprofits assess their needs, select software to meet them and engage audiences and constituents. She’s at comedy Am a D. I. E. Chris Bernard is managing editor at Tech Impact. He’s a career writer and journalist with 20 years experience in newspapers, magazines, advertising, corporate and nonprofit marketing and communications and freelance writing. Tech Impact is at Tech Impact dot or GE. Comedy Chris Welcome to non profit radio. It’s good to have you.

[00:36:59.23] spk_3:
Thank you for having us, tony.

[00:37:02.73] spk_0:
Absolute pleasure. Chris. Let’s start with you. Please acquaint our listeners with Tech Impact.

[00:37:45.90] spk_4:
Sure, tech impact is a national non profit. We offer a variety of programs, and service is to other nonprofits everything from tech consulting software selection. Managed service is to our workforce development programs in Delaware, Philadelphia in Las Vegas, where we offer all sorts of educational opportunities for young people. We also have, since 2000 and 18, when we merged with Ideal, where we have an arm of the non profit that produces all sorts of publications and training for nonprofits around the country, most of them free of charge, including this. This publication we’re talking about today

[00:38:17.96] spk_0:
Now I used to refer toa ideal wear when I had Karen Graham on, she was the CEO of idea where, as the consumer reports of non profit software and she bristled a little bit, not really. You know, Karen didn’t get upset. I don’t know if she ever gets upset. She didn’t get upset at me. She bristled a little bit like a little pushback. Well, not quite. Uh, do you? Do you object to that? Do you bristle it? That that explains that whatever description of idea where

[00:38:20.51] spk_4:
you have been with ideal where since 2000 and six. Tony and we that is certainly accurate for one part of what we do. I think if anybody would argue that point, it’s only that we do so much more than just software reviews.

[00:38:35.22] spk_0:
Okay, Okay, Fair enough. Alright. I’m sure Karen explain that to me too. But because she bristled, I have to bring it up. So? So let’s let’s let’s dive into the title. So we know what folks are gonna be looking at and what they should be expecting. So how do you define low cost?

[00:38:54.22] spk_3:
Well, that’s one of the things that we did. Well, we first embarked upon the report over the years, we’ve always had fairly standard methodology for how we go about the report. And one of the factors that we do with the very beginning is decide. Okay, what is blow cost in today’s market? So in today’s market. We were talking with subject matter experts who represented people who work in non profits and work with the technology, as well as consultants who help nonprofits with their technology and decided that for this version of the report, $10,000 for a year’s worth of software is about the ceiling that we could have.

[00:39:38.12] spk_0:
Okay. And how about fundraising? How do you define fundraising versus C. R. M or donor management? Because this used to be called the guide. The low cost donor management software. Yes, we actually

[00:41:08.31] spk_3:
had a lot of conversations about that. Um, with all the systems that we have in here really run the gamut, some of them do call themselves C R M. Some of them do call themselves donor management systems, and some call themselves fundraising systems. And so we do set aside part of the report to talk about what we mean by each one. Um, so for the systems that were in the report, we needed them or to, um, really be the sole database for a non profit or have the ability to be the sole database for a non profit, um, and then let them do things like create online forms, a variety of online forms. Let them, um, creating collect data from email marketing campaigns. We did require systems in the report to be cloud based, and we also did require them to be able to, um, process online payments either natively or through an integration. Um, we needed them to be able to track fundraising metrics on the dashboard, um, and manage a report on both online on direct mail fundraising campaigns. So it’s a sort of, ah, lot mawr expensive than the systems that we looked at in previous versions of this report. Because in many ways, the work the nonprofits of I was doing in this area have really expanded a lot. And they’ve required systems and technology to keep up

[00:41:35.41] spk_0:
with that. You have 10 different functionalities that you measured. You measure all the system against I know, um, and that folks is just gonna have to get the guide. Obviously, we’re not gonna take off all 10 functionalities. Um, Chris, I’m guessing, uh, the following is not the right question to ask. What’s the best system? Uh huh. We try 5.5 minutes. We could just wrap it up. What thing You don’t Nobody has to read the guide.

[00:41:44.51] spk_4:
This is the fifth edition of the guide. And one thing that has not changed throughout the course of each generation is that we make a ZX clear as possible that there is no best system. This is not about ranking the systems against one another. It’s about teaching nonprofits what systems offer and how to compare them and how to select the best one for their needs. Because ultimately that is the best system. It’s going to depend on your specific needs,

[00:42:16.10] spk_0:
and you have very conveniently, I think, a dozen different use cases so that you can try to fit your needs into maybe one of those use cases, or maybe overlap a little bit like tiny but growing and prices critical midsize and want a system that grows with us. Meet easy, set up and use. No. And you have a dozen of those different use cases,

[00:42:50.50] spk_4:
right? That was one of the, uh, the features that comedy brought to this edition of the guide, where we’re always looking for ways to make it easier for the nonprofits in our audience to access the knowledge that’s in it. It’s a massive undertaking to put together, but it’s also a massive undertaking to read. Yeah, comparing that many systems against hundreds of requirements, criteria just results in a lot of data. And how do you make that data useful? So looking for sort of entry points for nonprofits, Ahmedi came up with the idea of coming up with use cases that were common to nonprofits in our audience demographic to help them understand how other nonprofits reusing the system, find the use case. That sort of matched in a reasonable sense what they were doing. And then that’s that’s sort of a starting point for them. Thio begin Narrowing Systems

[00:43:30.49] spk_0:
The comedy. This is the first guy that you participated with?

[00:43:35.31] spk_3:
No, actually, I did work on. I did several of the software evaluations from the previous version of this guide, and I can’t take full credit for the use cases and that we had a smaller, um, or more limited version of use cases in the last edition of the guide that helped, uh, divide up some of the systems or sort them into categories. But what we heard from people in the intervening years was That was one of the first things that they turned to in the last edition of the guide when they were trying to get their hands around what systems toe look at because they didn’t feel like reading all of the profiles. So realizing that that waas, um, the most useful entry point for non profits made it much more, um, it made it much more attractive as

[00:44:31.09] spk_0:
e made it more accessible. Yes. You know, these are the 44 or five systems that will suit best. This, uh, this use case, you know, And like I said, you know, times 12. So whoever is best for this, how do you think non profit could best use the guide, like Or maybe maybe what do we have? What we have to know in advance before we can get the most out of the out of the guide.

[00:45:02.59] spk_4:
I’m gonna let Ahmedi field that question, but I just wanna close the use case conversation by pointing out that not all the systems eso we picked systems to match each of the use cases, but depending on each organization, specific needs other systems that we didn’t choose for a particular use case might still be perfectly valid system for that use case, and it really comes down to specific needs. We just can’t drive home enough that this is the beginning of the conversation. And it should not replace due diligence on the part of the non problems themselves.

[00:46:49.68] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. You know what? I’m ready before we before we take on that. How best? Use it. Well, but I feel like we should just I just wanna take off a bunch of the I can’t mention them. I can’t name them all, But just so folks get an idea of what what products we’re talking about I just wanna I’m gonna sample from the table of contents. So black black Bart Boomerang e tapestry Every action Kila little green light nation builder Network for good Neon C r M salesforce salsa virtuous. Okay, so I just So people get an idea What? Just have some sense of what the universe is like that we’re talking in the abstract about time for our last break dot drives dot drives engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives is thes simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. They have made it customizable, collaborative, intuitive. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships. If you want to get folks from prospect to donor, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. It’s at the listener landing page. Tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for low cost fundraising software guide. So how should we? How can we best use this thing? What? This This thing, this guide, it took you like, 20 minutes. You know you thing, it’s like, uh, less time than this interview is. This conversation is the guy’s done? No. This, uh, in depth guide. What should we have in place or what should we be thinking about? Like before we take it on?

[00:47:09.26] spk_4:
Well, I think it

[00:47:52.08] spk_3:
follows along really much of the best practices in choosing any software system, not just, um, donor management or fundraising or C r. M. And the first thing that you dio is have do a lot of work internally about what it is that you do now, um, and what it is that you’re going to be doing in the future, Like what your goals are for fundraising and how the software can possibly help you meet those goals. So once you go in there, we have a full section that actually goes through the 10 different types of functionality that we review in the guide and talks about different questions that nonprofits can ask about things that they do. Um, that how it how it fits into, um, their work and so they can use that section to decide what it is that are the most important functions that a software package would do to meet the goals that they have, um, selected both presently and for the future. And then from there, they can prioritize that and then use those, um, prioritize functions to take a look at which systems do well in those functions. Which systems offer those functions? So while we have sort of the high level look at it in the in the pdf version of the report, the online version of the report actually goes into depth on every single function that is below the is part of the 10, um, divisions that we have so that self so that nonprofits can really look at the details and figure out which systems do exactly what and whether or not, it meets their needs.

[00:49:09.07] spk_0:
So the guide is that guides dot tech impact dot or ge slash forward slash donor hyphen management, hyphen systems and Chris. There’s much more than a PdF there. I mean, there’s certainly there’s a pdf version of the guide could go through that, but there’s a lot more on that site. A lot more robustness. Talk about what? What folks will find it that u R L

[00:49:58.27] spk_4:
Yeah, sure, we, as I mentioned before, this is the fifth edition of this guide, but we have probably put out more than two dozen consumers guides on different topics over the years, and it had long been a dream of ours. That idea where to make it even more useful to our audience with a digital version of the site that could be interactive that offered searchable sort herbal charts toe make it more user friendly to compare systems on. This is the first guy that we’ve been able to offer that, uh, digital site, which so it’s kind of a micro site version of the report, and we are adding functionality to it on a rolling basis as we’re able to so in the next week or two. We’re hopeful that we’ll be able to announce, um, added functionality to the comparison charts that let people just highlight which systems they want to compare in, which features they’d like to compare them against so that that’s coming.

[00:50:16.86] spk_0:
That’s just like consumer reports, just like you could do Sorry camera. You could do a head to head comparison or compared two or three on the criteria. The functionalities that are most important to you,

[00:50:28.35] spk_4:
right? And we have the common mission with consumer reports of educating people about purchases because this is a big, big purchase for nonprofits and thio that same point because there’s so much information in this report, and yet there’s still so much information we don’t cover. We’re also offering a companion training Siri’s, where one of our expert trainers is conducting live demos of 12 systems from this guide, and thanks to the generosity of Fidelity Charitable Trust, we’ve been able to make that Frito anybody who signs up while that Siri’s is already underway. All those demos are being recorded, so anybody who goes to the tech impact website and signs up for that training can have for free access to live demos or recorded demos of the 12 systems from this report.

[00:51:19.61] spk_0:
How did you pick those 12 question? Well, there are 12 use cases. I wow already know the answer, but I’m asking you,

[00:51:56.16] spk_4:
I’m gonna let Omni speak to this one in more detail. But we chose 12 systems toe line up with the use cases, not because they are the best systems, but because the it would be a little bit too much of a lift for us to do the detailed long reviews of every system out there. So we chose 12 that Air Representative off what systems can do in terms of meeting the needs of organizations for each of those use cases. How many do you want to add to that expound on that or clarify that?

[00:51:59.19] spk_1:
Yeah. So overall, we have 20

[00:52:01.16] spk_3:
three systems in the report on dhe. 12 of them, as Chris just said, were chosen to represent the 12 East cases that we have to select the ones from the use case. It wasn’t again the best system. Um, but it was a system that was highly representative off what you can do in a good portion of the use case. So, for example, the use case that we have for organizations that do a lot of, uh events is that we took a look at the ones that had strong events packages. Um, you know, uh, most of the systems that we looked at had either, uh, native or integration to be able to do some work on events. But there are some that really provide ah, lot of features around events. And so those were the ones that were in there and the ones that the one that we chose to represent the events category, um was, you know, a really good representative of that in a good representative. Overall,

[00:53:04.06] spk_4:
we get a lot of emails from people saying we’re looking at two systems. Neither of them are in your list of 12. What’s wrong with our systems? And we wanna We wanna make it clear that all the systems in this report are excellent systems. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, and that’s what’s going to guide people’s decisions. There are other systems that didn’t make it in this report. They’re also excellent.

[00:53:29.82] spk_0:
You say that you say that explicitly the report. Yeah, but they just didn’t meet your criteria for evaluation. Right?

[00:53:50.25] spk_4:
And people can read about the methodology by which we the methodology we used to find systems and how we narrow the list down on. We’re happy to answer questions by email, but it’s an important note that just because it’s not one of the 12 that we chose is representative To meet those use systems does not mean it’s not a good system, and that should not be a deciding factor. This is just an effort to educate people toe, help them start making decisions about what’s right for them.

[00:54:05.24] spk_0:
And Chris, those 12 videos are at the site that I read.

[00:54:27.94] spk_4:
Uh, no, I will put a link up there. But if you go to Tech Impact dot or GE and look at our training calendar, you confined that training on. Sign up for that and we will send you a link to all the different recordings that we’ve already done. A ZX well, Azaz, uh, invitation for the upcoming ones that have not happened yet. Okay, Okay. In fact, I’ll send you a link. You can post it on your page with this recording, if you like.

[00:54:39.54] spk_0:
Okay. Yeah, Thank you. I will. Um What else? We still got a few minutes left together. What else? You want folks to know about the guide? You’re unwilling to answer the question? What’s the best system? So that’s off the tape. That one’s off the table? Uh, no. What else would you like to know? What else would you like folks to know about the guide?

[00:54:48.74] spk_4:
I think you hit on a key point, which is that this used to be the consumer’s guide to low cost donor management systems on. For a lot of people who are familiar with that report, which has been out five times in the past, they may not realize that this is the same one because of the title change. So I just want to assure people that this is the same report. We’re just changing the title to be more in line with how the vendors and subject matter experts and users, a ZX well are talking about these systems.

[00:55:19.14] spk_3:
I also wanted to point out that it’s not the guide. While the primary focus of the guide are the reviews of the systems and the profiles that air in there, one of the things that we do put in there is. We take a look at trends and we take a look at how the marketplace has changed. And we do provide, uh, some advice for nonprofits who are in the process of selecting a system about, you know, some of the things that they should be looking out for and some of the things they should be thinking about. So I know it’s a long report. I wrote a lot of words, but that there are some good things in the front of the book material, so to speak, that can help sort of position the systems within the marketplace is the whole

[00:56:06.83] spk_4:
report of this size is a massive effort on. It can’t be done without the participate participation of a lot of people subject matter experts, consultants, but also the vendors themselves who are generous with their time for the demos and the fact checking on. We also couldn’t do it without the generosity of our sponsors. Which brings me to the point that we should talk just quickly about our editorial firewall. People will notice that some of our sponsors are also vendors of systems, but those of us who put the report together don’t know who the sponsors of the report are. That’s handled by Karen Graham in a different part of the building entirely. And we’re not aware of who the sponsors are until publication day. So one has no input with no impact on the other whatsoever.

[00:56:56.53] spk_0:
Do the sponsors know whether their system is going to be part of the guide?

[00:57:20.43] spk_4:
Not when they not not at the time of sponsorship. We have to reach out to them at some point when they become of, you know, when their system is selected, because they have to do the demos and everything. But there are Obviously it’s a limited constellation of vendors out there. All right, it’s tough to fund this kind of work, were grateful for the generosity of all our sponsors and advertisers who make it possible. But we have a pretty rigorous editorial firewall up to prevent any kind of impact from the sponsorship on inclusion in the report.

[00:57:56.03] spk_0:
Okay, we trust Karen Graham. She bristled, but you admonished me, could even go so far to say admonished, Um okay, should we, uh, I’m gonna read the u R l one more time Should we should we leave it there and encourage folks? Thio. Encourage

[00:57:56.70] spk_4:
them to sign up for the free training to see the demos. And if people do need additional help choosing software, if this is still too much of a lift for people to do on their own, which is valid considering the importance of a decision like this, that is something Tech Impact can help with. They can find that on the website as well.

[00:59:40.72] spk_0:
Assistance Assistance with selection. Yeah, okay, again the guide and the site that Chris described. Guides dot tech impact dot or GE forward slash donor Hyphen management Hyphen systems. How many Heart is a contract writer and researcher? Her company is heart strategic marketing, and Chris Bernard is managing editor at Tech Impact. Take impact dot or ge a median. Chris, Thank you so much. Thanks very much, Thank you. Appreciate it. Next week, A special episode. Adult learning with Nico Chin. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Beseeches still good, but I am really liking abdominal abdominal May overtake Beseech I’m not sure were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free month and a free demo. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, be with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

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That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising. That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising.

 

 

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[00:01:53.32] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go into Borba Rig mus if you upset my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show. Fundraising for 01 That’s Lawrence Paige non EA’s latest book. It’s a series of master classes for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in non profit management and fundraising. Tony Stick, You planning for reopening were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a real pleasure to welcome back Lawrence Pack tony Teoh non profit radio. He is chairman of Lap A fundraising serving non profits throughout the world, roughly 25 clients at a time. He’s got 35 years in the sector as executive director and fundraising council, his latest book published this year is fundraising for, 01 master classes in non profit fundraising That would make Peter Drucker proud. The company is at lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Welcome lap. If the firm was lapper your lab, right,

[00:02:00.79] spk_0:
we tripped upon the acronym years and years ago. We always use the full Lawrence Ape Agnone Associates. And

[00:02:07.26] spk_1:
as I remember,

[00:02:08.24] spk_0:
one day, we just had written lap on this and that had good alliteration. We should use that.

[00:02:18.28] spk_1:
Okay, you went the way of ah, of, um, Triple A and ah, and AARP. You know, they don’t You’re not, You know, Lawrence, tape Agnone Associates anymore. Your lap. That’s right. Okay, it’s the It’s the 21st century now. Alright.

[00:02:38.44] spk_0:
But there’s also a mini lesson there for non profits about, uh, branding. Um, trying to get it right at the beginning is important, but good. The difference between good branding and great branding is the width of the Grand Canyon. Um and so I didn’t ever want to venture into rebranding it without great council, which I’ve never been able to afford.

[00:03:29.74] spk_1:
So you stumbled on lap and we evolved, you know, you? Yes, it’s proof that the greatness doesn’t come out in the beginning. You can’t plan all the greatness in the beginning. It has to as to organically come about. So it’s been like 6.5 years. You were on the, uh, your for your first book, the non profit fundraising solution. You are on non profit radio on November 8th, 2013. Wow, when that book was new, seven years ago on dhe. Now, your second, um so let’s let’s get into it. Uh, why does, uh, what is management consultant Peter Drucker belong in the title?

[00:05:16.64] spk_0:
Ah, Homage to Peter Drucker taught me how to think. Ah, well, I guess the Jesuits would take the first bow for that. But Peter Drucker, Um, I was a Peter Drucker fellow in the 19 nineties here in New York City. And it was Peter who taught me how to integrate fundraising into organizational development. Besides just being a great part human being, he was a brilliant strategist and thinker. He of course, wrote the original bulk on reengineering General Motors, and but he spent the last years of his life focused on the what he called the higher profit sector what we call the nonprofit sector. But he, uh he thought that if there wasn’t a coalescing off the non profit sectors values with the business sector, that society would be deficient for for that not happening. So, um, actually, when I started writing this book, um, I didn’t realize the degree to which drug Harry and thinking had Dominy eat it. My own thinking. And it was about a dozen chapters in that my editor said you use Drucker an awful lot. I said, tell me how many times? And then I was, like, astounded. And, um and then I I added that little no. Oh, my him

[00:05:23.14] spk_1:
And And Drucker had the book managing the non profit organization. Yeah. He was committed to the to the sector. To what he got what he called the higher profit. Is that what he called it? The higher profit

[00:05:31.64] spk_0:
profit Peter Drucker?

[00:05:33.28] spk_1:
There it is. And all right,

[00:05:48.29] spk_0:
I’m Crawford organization. It’s been on my desk since 19 91. I think, um, and I read and re read it as I hope you will do my book fund raising for a one coming forward.

[00:05:49.64] spk_1:
Yes. Ive replayed your show on the first book three times since 2013. So I have you, tony. It’s a go to for still is for people who asked me, How do I get the next level? I get that question every maybe a couple times a month. Maybe not that often sometimes, but I recommend the book for how to get to the next level. It’s a It’s a very systematic and sensible approach.

[00:06:27.36] spk_0:
The, uh, the fundraising, The nonprofit fundraising solution was the pros of fundraising. But fundraising for a one is really the poetry. It’s more the art of fundraising, whereas the other one was the science.

[00:06:31.39] spk_1:
Yeah, you say that and you talk about the art and science and one of your chapters. But you talk about growing into answers and moving to a better set of problems with both of which sound artistic talk about that growing into answers and better set of problems.

[00:08:00.24] spk_0:
Well, oftentimes, nonprofits What? There, there. Uh, there’s not enough room in scopes of service, you know, you hire a fundraiser to fundraise and you define a scope of service but a really advanced fundraising system. Once it gets going, it has to look carefully at what the owners are saying. What the institutional funders are saying, Ah, what is working in social media and what’s not for one of our large clients connected with Johns Hopkins University? They weren’t able to raise any money online. And he, um, change the way they approached social Media. And within the first year, they had an extra $100,000 from their social media program. Um, so figuring out as you go long, um, more efficient ways and building that creativity in is very important. And, um, um, and defining it too rigidly. Uh uh, shuts that down.

[00:09:16.36] spk_1:
I did like a better set of problems. No, you tell an anecdote. You, for some reason aboard, was getting involved in whether to buy a fax machine. Let’s not get into whether board should even be deciding whether by fax you. But, you know, you just went out and bought the damn thing yourself. Now the fax machines, not communicating with our donors back when facts that this was many years ago, not communicating with donors and our funders is not a problem, but so that that was for me, that was okay. Better set of problems Let’s not deal with the damn fax machine. I’ll buy it. And now let’s deal with communications. It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. We received RP PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven from your Pee Pee Pee loan? You need to apply for that. It’s not automatic forgiveness. Get the details from the C P, a firm we trust. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to fundraising for 01

[00:10:33.97] spk_0:
But here’s a Here’s a more sophisticated, better set of problems. Let’s say right now you don’t know who you’re monthly donors are or your plan donors are, and you do research to figure out. Maybe a lot of nonprofits don’t know the date of birth of their donors. So let’s say you do research and you integrate just the date of birth into your donor database and you’re able to segment. Um, you know, suddenly you discover, as is the case with one of our clients on, I remember your rule about the difference between active and a passive plan giving program that they discovered they had 750 people over age 65. They were. They were not aware of that until they had their date of birth. And so now they have a better set of problems. They’re able to think about planned giving because they know they have a donor segment. That is ah, that matches that. So that is my definition of organizational growth, too. But a lot of of of us that we have the same problem over and over again, and that is being stuck. And I wrote this book to tease out ways to get unstuck, Um, and to try some new things within your thinking. First and foremost, this is a book about how to think about fundraising,

[00:10:45.37] spk_1:
a series of revelations, Syria’s revolution. So So we’ll talk about a bunch of them. You you talk about, uh, fundraising as, ah analogized Teoh. Dating, dating relationships. No, se little about that.

[00:13:19.24] spk_0:
Sure. So when two people meet, they have to learn what the other person’s up for. They have to learn their values, their mutual sexual attraction, their ability to work on and solve problems together. Now, absent the mutual sexual attraction, the same applies to getting to know your donors putting your donors first, uh, listening funders. Pushing back a little bit with your funders about what you’re really needs are having conversations that are thoughtful. And, um so, uh, getting to know the the revenue streams that you’re working through is just similar to dating, but without the sexual romantic energy listening, listening is critical and mentioned listening. And if you’re not sympathetic, simpatico if you’re not simpatico, um, like, uh, one donor who Who? I was trying to get a six figure gift from four teenage pregnancy prevention program. I’ve been telling this story for years. So pardoned, if you’ve heard it. But it was such a rich experience for me, you know, right early in the conversation, he said, You know, um, I don’t believe teen age should be having sex, and I just let the silence sit there. Of course, inside myself, I’m thinking, you know, e, I just lost the gift, but I just listened Ah, in a posture of tell me more. And then he said, I think honest peak, tony must two minutes must have passed. I really was starting to sweat a little bit, and then he said, but I that not chewy. And, uh, and the clients you serve need the kind of program that your agency is recommending. So let’s talk about how that would work. And so he was up for it, But he was starting from a place of his own, you know, position, but showing flexibility about thinking. So he was up for the dating relationship?

[00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Well, well, what may be the one night stand, but that you have that you have that story in the book. And he gay ended up giving $25,000 right? Because you were a good listener. So maybe that was a one time gift. So now,

[00:13:39.73] spk_0:
no, no, he gave for three years.

[00:13:53.54] spk_1:
I did. All right, All right. So it was a short term relationship. All right. All right. Um, our product, our product is impact. What’s that about?

[00:15:07.06] spk_0:
Well, too many people confuse that they’re giving to your non profit. You know, the bread for the world or partners and Hells or whatever the name of the non profit is, donors don’t give to your non profit. They give for the mission and the impact. And you have to be clear about, you know, with your gift will be ableto have more of an impact. Here’s the impact we’ve had. Here’s the aspirational impact that we’re looking for. Um, Bill, Sure, from share Our strength has been a real role model in the nonprofit sector. Ah, for talking about the rial overhead costs that we should be advocating before to really get the job done, He asked the provocative question, Um, if would you be satisfied if my overhead were 5%? But I didn’t feed All the hungry people came to me. Nurses. If it was 35% and I did feed them all, which would you prefer? And, ah, that that is a good question. And you could each agency could have their version of that, um, to talk about aspirational goals and, um, and and if because if you don’t define them, no one in no one else’s

[00:15:33.44] spk_1:
and you talk about the importance of measuring impact. Yeah, knowing what your return on investment is your r a y ah nde communicating, sharing that it’s it’s critical.

[00:17:02.98] spk_0:
Yes. So having not just an evaluation program that complies with the funders requirements as so many government contracts do, but having a new evaluation program that helps the staff make management decisions about what programs are working and what are not. When I was the non profit CEO of Harlem United for six years, our data showed us that are substance abuse case management program did okay, but what really kept people in sobriety was our pastoral counseling and pastoral care program. Because the clients it was it was nondenominational. It was a healing experience. And it had twice the amount of ah, of sobriety retention as our substance abuse counseling program did. If we hadn’t been looking at the data, we wouldn’t have known that. And so we took that news to religious oriented funders and hired three more pastoral counsellors and built a partnership with Hospital Chaplaincy Inc. Who trains pastoral counsellors. And, um, we have had, uh, we had a strong spike in sobriety amongst our clients. It was really quite beautiful. And it’s lasted for years,

[00:17:36.69] spk_1:
all from understanding what your data is revealing what your true impact is. Yeah. All right. You you mentioned staff were jumping around a little bit, but you you highlight that Ah used to think that clients should come first. But now you feel its staff should come first. Retention strategies, professional development. I don’t know if you mentioned mentoring, but that always comes up, you know, talk about investments and investments that are that need to be made in staff. And why you think staff is number one now,

[00:20:24.54] spk_0:
boy, if I come a long way as a as an advocate for the poor from being a teenager, Um, when I worked in a volunteer in a soup kitchen myself, thanks to my good old Teamster union dad, um, I never wavered from clients first, and, uh, but, um, it’s not that I’m saying clients take a back seat. I’m saying that if we make staff, primary clients will be better served ma staff retention that nonprofits is alarming. And worse yet, Ah, younger generations, um, leave the sector faster than our generation. Those of us in our fifties, they leave the sector faster. Um, because they have a bad experience with a board or the the poor. Compensation is not livable for their family. So but it’s not just about the conditions of employment. It’s also about is the non profit a learning environment A learning organization here at lap of fundraising we have just 1/2 a dozen shared values within our firm and professional development and advancement is, um is one of them, and we pay every year, every staff person has a professional development plan, right, and we pay for it. And, um, we’re happy to do it. Um, because people are staff will tell you. You know, we aspire whether we succeed at it completely, I don’t have to ask them, but we aspire to be a learning organization, not just learning on our accounts, but learning from best practices in the field and colleagues we bring colleagues in, um, we’re big into what’s called the any a gram in our workplace. It’s a it’s ah, it’s an emotional intelligence system for the workplace that that helps people understand how there are clients are viewing the world how they’re built. The India graham dot Any a gram institute dot or ge. I believe, um, would introduce you to it has some videos there,

[00:21:00.94] spk_1:
so we need to overcome Leave behind this idea that professional development technology to support staff. You know that these air luxuries, you know, we’re way cut. Being a couple of operating systems behind is okay, because it’s more important that we spend our money on the people or the programs. You know, that’s that’s that’s outdated, thinking you and what we’re seeing in terms of younger folks leaving the sector is bearing out that bearing out out. That’s evidence that we’re not providing what they’re looking for. So they try one or two jobs and then they leave. That’s that’s not talk about not sustainable.

[00:21:26.64] spk_0:
I could just hear some of your audience members saying asked Lawrence to tell me where to find money for technology improvements or, UM, or professional development.

[00:21:28.69] spk_1:
All right, well, good. You’re channeling the audience like Ideo. Ask the other. Answer them.

[00:23:19.64] spk_0:
It’s hard. Um, I know what what we do is we build it into our overhead rate and where we can we try to get so many nonprofits have such a low overhead rate, and that’s again back with Bill Shore was talking about, um, some government contracts actually curb you at 10% and most nonprofits haven’t overhead rate at least a 23 24% and arguably it should be probably close to the 35. I think all the major universities are somewhere north of 50% overhead. So trying to get it into your overhead and then, of course, looking form or general operating support by identifying donor advised funds, which, by definition, as you know tony, are hidden. There are profiles you could use to assume that somebody probably has a donor advised fund. We do that nor prospect research. And then, of course, we asked directly when we’re talking to them or serving them. So people who have donor advised funds are very friendly to, you know, odd costs or what? You know what the As contrast that to institutional funders where you get a grant for your program. Sometimes in those grants you can add a computer. You can say we need, you know, 40 hours of professional development. So integrating it into all your fund raising on into your overhead rate has worked with many of our clients. Um And then, of course, there’s rare occasions when on our f p is issued where you can ask for things like that.

[00:23:31.02] spk_1:
Uh huh. You doesn’t work with sterile needle exchange. Just talk about that a little bit. That sounds like a good story.

[00:24:36.14] spk_0:
Yeah, Harm reduction. Um, again, a better set of problems. Um, it’s better toe. Have needle. Ah, needle users use clean needles, then toe Have them keep using dirty needles because it reduces the spread off HIV and STDs. Ah, and blood born infections. Um, so that’s a better harm. Reduction is a better set of problems with science behind it. And, um, this is true not just in the United States, but in, uh, all throughout the world and European countries who have harm reduction policies. Harm reduction is still needed. It it’s kind of fallen out of fashion. There’s just a handful, maybe two or three funders who are interested in it. The drug policy alliance is still interested in it. And the Komer Foundation, if if they’re still around,

[00:24:40.50] spk_1:
what was What was your work in harm reduction?

[00:25:29.42] spk_0:
Uh, well, I had, uh, helped, um, the New York harm reduction Educators in the Bronx form a hotline so that people could reach them, and, uh, we went to check cashing stores. Um, where the poor, The poor in the Bronx generally don’t use a bank. They pay to have their check cashed, which is a scandal unto itself, but its exorbitant if we would expand the United States Postal Service is toe what it was in the 19 fifties. They they wouldn’t have have that. There’s a direct link between the reduction of the role of the U. S Postal Service in its role with money orders and check cashing and the the upswing of these four profit sleazy check cashing.

[00:25:38.50] spk_1:
Interesting. All right, we’re

[00:26:04.35] spk_0:
but any way went to the check cashing places. And yes, we paid them. We had to pay them when they cashed the cheque to put our business card for the the New York Harm Reduction Educators with 1 800 number on And we saw, on average, 800 new enrollees into the non profit to get access to HIV prevention and treatment service is

[00:27:17.24] spk_1:
I did. I did work in Philadelphia when I was in law school with an organization called Prevention Point, Philadelphia. It was it was a grassroots, sterile needle exchange. Excuse me. They were going toe parks in areas where they knew drug activity was high on weekends and literally distributing marked sterile needles marked so that they knew when they got their own back so they could had some. They had a measure of effectiveness. How many sterile needles were coming back and how maney unmarked needles So dirty needles they were getting off the streets, and that was incredibly rewarding. It was an internship, but just to see the the father’s walk up or drive up with a young child in tow and, you know, taking 1/2 a dozen needles and giving us 1/2 a dozen. Uh, but I know the statistics are there that it reduces on. This was 1989 1990. Uh, no. HIV was much more dangerous than it is now.

[00:28:41.54] spk_0:
And he’s here. You see in art in the conversation right now between tony and I, how a fund raiser discovers his or her product to sell. This is what fundraisers do at the highest level. We listen to the caseworkers to the clients, to the statistics to the the best practice studies, for example, with a affordable housing program that I’m starting to work within Orlando, Florida The executive director was blown away because the first thing we were starting to do is we’ve read 10 years worth of completely boring but totally relevant thinking from the Orlando Housing Authority about their needs assessments. They do them, they’re required to do them every 10 years. And those documents are chock full with with really good data. Um, I mean, that’s something to be a proud of in our country is we still have some semblance of these local civic governments that are doing their due diligence about community need. Um, but this is how fundraisers then get a very powerful case for support develop. Um, and uh huh. That’s why there’s a chapter about impact and the the the product is your program, and it’s a

[00:30:33.04] spk_1:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two reopening from Corona virus. That’s the special episode with Lisa Brauner. I just want to make sure that you heard it. It’s very good, very relevant, and I don’t want you to miss it if, uh, if you’re just sampling the show. Perhaps those were listening to every show, of course. All three of you, Cheryl, Rick and my dad. I’m just kidding about that. My dad doesn’t even know what a podcast is. So for Cheryl and Rick, I know that you are covered, but everybody else, Lisa is very smart. It’s a valuable show. We talk about dozens of issues for you to consider. As you plan to reopen your office reopening from Corona virus, you’ll find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Oh, and please, please keep taking care of yourself. Do it each day. You need it. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Stick to now back to Lawrence Paige. Tony Panyu. Tony. He’s chairman of lap of fundraising. We’re talking about his book fundraising for 01 You talk about the donor as hero? What, uh, what are you thinking there?

[00:30:36.04] spk_0:
Well, uh,

[00:30:37.68] spk_1:
all right. Share your thinking. I know what you’re thinking cause I read your I read your book. So listen, you just got to get the book. If you want to flush out the full thunk thinking Sure. The launch will introduce you to his thinking as donors as heroes,

[00:32:16.34] spk_0:
so many appeal letters or annual reports or newsletter. They make the client the hero. There’s there’s wisdom to that. They make the organization itself the hero. But in fund raising, the donor is the hero. And I grew up in a non profit sector that ignored that the ascent ignored the donor. The essential message to the donor for most of my life has been give and shut up. Um, but today’s donor wants to be heard. They want to be acknowledged. They will give MME. Or they will become more involved. It was Terry Axelrod, the founder of the Bena von model of fundraising that started to give me a hint that donors wanted to be engaged, and then the data bore that out. Um, I’ve started to take on clients who would tell me, Oh, we could never ask. Are our volunteers for money? I haven’t heard that question in the past five years or so. Ah, better set of problems, I think. I think people are more convinced that they realize their donors want to give and hello out there. If you think your dough. If you still think your donors, your volunteers going to No. Well, please evaluate that. Read my book and evaluate that because your volunteers want to give

[00:33:07.07] spk_1:
you, uh, one little quote, you say as your writing. You know, as you’re writing to your donors, um, tell the story as if the donor were sitting before you over a cup of coffee. Uh, you suggest you see their smile, speak their name? Um, you make it up, make it a conversation. You know, this idea of stilted language? Uh, you have to fill in 8.5 by 11 page sheet of paper. Maybe. Sometimes you do. But if you don’t need to, then don’t. Um, handwriting, handwriting and written solicitations could be probably more sincere than something you produce on word and feel constrained, compelled to Philip age around. So no, get close and talk to people like like you would like to be talked to.

[00:33:25.56] spk_0:
I learned from Tom Ahern about some of the nuances about making the donor the hero, and it actually influenced my book cover. You could see you know,

[00:33:26.88] spk_1:
Darcis holding listening marches, holding up his book cover. Okay,

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
going below, there’s a hook with a dollar sign going below the surface of the water Because the point is to rid to raise the big money you have, Teoh, think more deeply about fundraising and what’s motivating the donor. Um, but we start making the case right on the cover of a newsletter or a case for support. We recently did a case for support for an animal welfare agency where we put a picture of the Cubist cat on one case and the cute his dog on the other with their owners who had just adopted them holding them. But right underneath that we put the question, How can we ever say no? So we’re we’re saying to the donor,

[00:34:20.74] spk_1:
it wasn’t How can you How can you say no if you

[00:34:23.95] spk_0:
ever say no?

[00:34:24.74] spk_1:
Yeah, right. How can you say you ever seen get the you? You gotta get you with yours in there.

[00:34:28.90] spk_0:
That you in there?

[00:34:43.14] spk_1:
Okay, so I read the book you missed. You blew the Holt. Whole Point is, you gotta have the u in there. Not how can we get You are sorry. Um um

[00:34:44.44] spk_0:
you your it’s all about you.

[00:35:24.47] spk_1:
Yes, using yours. I know. Tom Ahern stresses that he even has a calculator on the Web somewhere. It might be a hearn dot com or something where you can put your text in and it’ll evaluate how many years you have versus how many wees or something like that, right? But I’m constantly I’m constantly rewriting, you know, the can we change the to you, the donor, Your you, your donors? I mean, as I am writing to clients instead of the donors, your donors, you’re talking now to the second person instead of the abstract third person, the donor that could be anybody’s donors. No, we’re talking about your donors, your donor. That’s just not not in the abstract. I think it bring. It makes it more concrete than using the site. That second person.

[00:35:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and it also it’s It’s not just a linguistic shift. There’s research science behind it. Psychology, science, psychological sciences behind it that the donors feel like Oh, he really is talking about me and and so we raise more money with that approach.

[00:35:54.39] spk_1:
By the way, did I did I mispronounce your name when I introduced you?

[00:35:59.14] spk_0:
I know. You

[00:36:00.34] spk_1:
know I didn’t I had hoped that I had met mispronounced your name because I had hoped that by now 6.5 years later you had changed the pronunciation of Panyu. Tony, why are you still defacing your beautiful Italian names with

[00:36:14.79] spk_0:
parents? It’s worse than that. The whole name on the bastard bastard birth certificate is Lorenzo Antonio Paige non. Tony?

[00:36:22.66] spk_1:
Yes, Panyu tony, why are you started

[00:36:25.28] spk_0:
the opera? You know

[00:36:26.63] spk_1:
I know you. You are in 2013. You mentioned your

[00:36:33.25] spk_0:
grandmother. Grandmothers? Uh uh. She loved the operating that she tell me that old time your name’s a little opera.

[00:37:18.63] spk_1:
I would rather you take the g out to make it pan, tony, or it switches to panini or something. Please. But you’re you’re killing the beautiful pronunciation. Panya non. I’ll try, tony. I promise to try. All right, it’s worth It’s worth the investment. It’s worth the investment in changing the pronunciation, not dispelling just a pronunciation. People will still be able to find you on the web. All right, um, you said you say all donors are major donors and following from that all gifts of major gifts. What? What? What is that to me? We know we’re stratify ing. We have our modest donors because we’re too afraid to call them small donors that we say their modest And then we have our mid level and major and then, you know, may be ultra. But you say all old owners are major donors.

[00:39:54.42] spk_0:
Yes, because nobody has to give a dime to you. Nobody has to give their hard earned money to you. Nobody has to on because of that, they all should be treated in a major way. Now, of course, in the systems of fundraising, we might have automation in place. Hope thoughtful automation for donors who are, you know, from $1 to say, $5000 for major donors or transformational donors at the higher levels. You know, we have a more personal touch. It’s expensive. Major gift officers who know what they’re doing are have come at a higher salary because their skills are honed over years and they know how to deeply listen and use the data to ask for transformational gifts, multiyear gifts, legacy gifts. Um, but, um but but I’m trying to convey that we shouldn’t take any dollar, no matter the size amount for granted that that they don’t have to give and people are giving, you know Jesus pointed out in Scripture. The widow’s mite was greater than the Faris ease giving because she gave from her heart and she gave from her want. And, um so I had to learn again. Just like with professional development. I had a learned this the hard way. My development I belly eight about donor giving less than I thought he he could have My development director quietly closed the door, sat down with that white flustered look on his face like Lawrence. Jesus, Mother God, you know, what am I gonna do with you? You’re supposed to be our leader. And he said to me lardons every gift is a major one and he didn’t have to give that gift. And that’s a real story. And I went silent and I thought about it. And I thought, You know, that’s That’s damn true. Yeah, eventually, that donor, because of the way my development director treated him so kingly. He did give at much higher levels later on. But nobody has to give us a dime.

[00:40:19.62] spk_1:
Generous would be proud of you. Still still quoting, still quoting scripture that influence that’s with you forever, I’m sure. Yeah. Uh, something else you. You, ah, seems provocative. That you devote a chapter to is, uh, revenue diversification. You you tell us it’s overrated. Flush that out. Would you?

[00:41:37.61] spk_0:
For smaller organizations, divert revenue diversification is really essential. I’m not naive about that, but it’s expensive to do well. Um, most smaller organizations barely have. Well, the profile most organizations is that they don’t even have a development office state. They have the program director and the executive director rights to grants or, um, manages the gala. They might bring in a gala event consultant, but, um, when when Stanford University did a study of think it was 130 major nonprofits who had gotten over $50 million annual revenues, they discovered that diversification of revenue went down. And that study was a seminal piece of research that changed our thinking about diversification. So as a non profit grows to a better set of problems, um, its revenue should stream should become deeper, not wider, and a

[00:41:38.56] spk_1:
few 1,000,000,000. What’s deeper in what’s most successful,

[00:43:00.34] spk_0:
that’s right and most lucrative. For example, Habitat for Humanity. They started with, um in kind donations as there biggest source of revenue that the stuff that they needed for the houses that they were building good stuff, not just, you know, poor quality stuff. But then they realized that the people who donated that stuff were willing to donate. And so they started an individual donor program that eventually grew as they did. Don’t a research to major major gift program, and they went deeper and deeper into that source of revenue individual giving they before monthly giving. They formed eventually on line giving. They formed legacy societies. So within each revenue stream, you can create enormous depth. And, ah, instead of expanding outside, could habitat taken government money is probably some of them eventually did in localities that where the local government said, Hey, we wanna help because this is part of our community development, a program. And so they got some

[00:43:46.04] spk_1:
time for our last break turned to communications. They’re former journalists, so you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. Plus, you want toe prepare, you got a plan to build media relationships. When all this noise subsides, there is a future after this. They know exactly what to do for you. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for fundraising for 01 This is also an example of where you need to invest in staff. You know, if you want. If you want to go deeper in the in the channel, the fundraising method that’s that’s most lucrative for you. You’re gonna have to do it with a professional who’s got an experience, got experience in that in that channel and maybe others as well. But it can’t continually be the executive director trying to deep in fundraising in the most look from the most lucrative source and manage the organization. Oversee the programs in short compliance. I mean, this is where you have to invest. If you want to be among those few charities that gets to the whatever 50 or $55 million level. You know it’s doable, but you need to invest in growth.

[00:44:58.44] spk_0:
When I last talked to you in 2013 our firm talked a good game about Prospect Research Service is, and we did. We did deliver some service is, but we got honest with ourselves that we had to invest. Seven years later, we have you know, a six person T and we do Don’t a research. Now we find I mean, we found 108,000 new donors. Value aligned donors for Lutheran Social Service is we found 8000 new donors for the food bank in New Jersey. Um, we found ah, 42 new board member candidates for ST Christopher’s Inn and Garrison, New York.

[00:45:15.86] spk_1:
I mean, our donor from in investing in Prospect Research.

[00:45:24.09] spk_0:
Yeah, and and also the field itself has matured and developed. And it’s not just about the data. It’s about using how to use the data off when you marry the data of vendors with a trained fundraiser. That’s where you have the alchemy

[00:45:37.49] spk_1:
and you have a whole. You have a chapter devoted to not underfunding advancement, development. It’s called development for a reason. You make the point. It needs to grow, and if you’re gonna grow it, you got to invest in it. So don’t under fund your development. Ah,

[00:46:02.77] spk_0:
and by the way, I just gave you the tip for my the book. The next book, How to Find New Donors, which will be out sometime in 2021.

[00:46:04.50] spk_1:
You’re doing a prospect research book.

[00:46:29.78] spk_0:
Yeah. Uh, interesting. You call it that? I’m not sure. It’s funny. Um, I I’m professionally, I’m a fundraiser. I’m not a prospect researcher. Yeah, I use the tools. I know it in good prospect researchers. Obviously, we have them here at the firm E. And I know I’m not one of them, but I’m a fund raiser who uses the data So that put the books about. It’s a nuance, maybe a distinction without a difference. But But there are very wonky. Very good prospect research books out there that I couldn’t possibly Right.

[00:46:54.18] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. But, um, I still have some other things I want to cover with you. We got, like, another 10 minutes or so left, but, uh, let me throw to you. What do you want to talk about from the book?

[00:47:08.48] spk_0:
Well, right off, I’d like Teoh, uh, invite the reader to to actually read it. I talked to a lot of fund raisers, and I’m not

[00:47:16.38] spk_1:
convinced. Sounds like that. I think that’s sound advice for a book. Ah, Book author? Yeah. Assumed my book, for God’s sake.

[00:47:26.48] spk_0:
Well, I actually learned this from a terrific fundraiser. Who headed up the Heyman Institute, Um, at New York University. Ah, Naomi Levine.

[00:47:32.24] spk_1:
Had I had her on the show years ago? Yes, I

[00:48:20.87] spk_0:
remember. Naomi, you know, kicked my butt around. Lawrence, you know, you have to read not just in our field, extensively. But you have to read in the field of economics in the field of sociology in the field of of, ah, science because the donors are expert in those fields. I remember going into a meeting with an engineer on a plan gift. And, um, he mentioned something that I had read because of Naomi suggestion about the field of of environmental engineering. And I said to him, You know, I know enough to be dangerous, but are you talking about, you know, corrosive engineering protection and his I split up? How the hell did you know that?

[00:48:24.77] spk_1:
You learned those words and friends. Corrosive engineering protection. And

[00:49:05.17] spk_0:
there’s affinity on this is our job. Is fundraising whites or amazing field? You? Never, if you’re bored, is a fundraiser. Holy cow. Your read my book and find out. You know, a way to become a non board. But my point, tony, is that so many fundraisers. Our stayed there. Kind of. They know what they know. Um, I could tell you at this time in my life more about what I don’t know about fund raising that then what I know about it and why I surround myself with good thinkers myself. And I’ve been told that this book and this is my second point is both helpful for somebody advanced in fundraising like yourself. And it’s also helpful for people who are new or mid career that it’s a very approachable book. Primarily because I tell stories that are based in reality. And I then give the more advanced theory behind it.

[00:49:32.27] spk_1:
Yeah, So I grab it. Is it is it You

[00:49:34.44] spk_0:
found that to be the case?

[00:49:46.87] spk_1:
It is approachable. Yeah. Um, it’s my turn again now. So you you have advice for ah CEO? Um, decision making and also CEO as fundraiser. So I want to put those two together and and explore what? What? Decisions about fundraising are appropriate at the CEO level.

[00:51:16.76] spk_0:
So, uh, knowing the plan and understanding the plan of how to move to a better set of problems, do you have the same fund raising dilemma year in and year out. That’s the CEO’s job to kick the boards, but and the the development teams. But ah ah, because so many fundraising programmes have the same problem year in and year out. That means it’s stuck and, um, and that’s primarily on the shoulders of the CEO. Uh, the underfunding of the development team that’s on the shoulders of the CEO. The CEO has to find the revenue to fund the capacity to pay for developed. Um, and I offer many on my blawg at lap of fundraising dot com. I offer you know, thousands of suggestions about how toe pay for fundraising, and, um so there’s two examples Ah, third example I’d give of the CEOs job and fundraising. Is it? They have to, um, boxed the ears or guide the boards in

[00:51:18.74] spk_1:
the stage box. Just 60 years, Yeah, box that years of war guide, okay

[00:51:24.20] spk_0:
or guide? That’s they would guide

[00:51:26.18] spk_1:
whose chooser is somewhere in that spectrum.

[00:51:59.21] spk_0:
Somewhere that spectrum. They have to guide the board’s way to think about fund raising because boards who know nothing about fundraising are sitting there in judgment of professional fund raisers who have you know, 25 years of experience. There’s, They wouldn’t do that to the program director. Some of them do. But that’s another set of problems. They wouldn’t. They generally don’t do it to their attorneys. They wouldn’t. They certainly don’t do it to their auditors. They feel free to do it to their fundraisers,

[00:52:07.34] spk_1:
things they would never do in their own business. They do, uh, routinely some boards, you know, to the CEO and the program staff of the board. Who’s the non profit, whose boards they said on. And you talk about a heavy lifting board gotta have a heavy lifting board.

[00:53:18.95] spk_0:
Yes, governance is a thing. Governance is not for every volunteer. Its governance is not just for, um, the person who likes your mission or whose son or daughter benefited from from your mission. Governance is a business proposition that the nonprofit sector has designed, Um, and it has roles and responsibilities for not just fugitive fiduciary roles, but for long range planning. It’s the job of the executive team to think about the next three years, but it’s the job of the board to think about the next 5 to 10 years. Yeah, and most boards never really think about the long term plan now, you know, planning in this day and age is is it is it anachronistic? I don’t think it is but a little bit old fashioned, but I think plans should be nimble and changed. But you should still have, Ah, a long range plan about what you want to look like in 5 to 10 years.

[00:54:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, that heavy lifting board and in terms of fundraising as well. And you make the point that campaigns could be a very good I very good vehicle for, ah recycling board or replacing board members that aren’t that aren’t heavy lifting. Maybe there’s an advisory council they can go on or some kind of America’s status so that they’re not embarrassed but still age. But But they’re not. But they’re not a fiduciary any longer. With those obligations and eso right, we have just like a minute or so left. Uh, leave us. Leave us with something, but do it concisely, please.

[00:55:46.67] spk_0:
Oh, we’re in the middle of as you and I record this were in the middle of the cove in 19 Pandemic. The nonprofits that are raising more money through this pandemic are the ones with a deep culture of philanthropy and that culture philanthropy is defined by resiliency. Resilience. Um, if you’re serious about the next pandemic or about your own viability in the future, the 23 chapters of this book well, deep in your culture of philanthropy so that you’re more prepared for the future. If you’re assessing yourself right now as that you were not ready for this pandemic, do not beat yourself up. But take it as a wake up call to start getting ready for the economic crisis that we’re going to be living through for the next couple of years, and for the very much needed reform of our health care system, so that the poor and uh, communities of color are better served than what we’re seeing in Cove in 19. And so that’s a real reason to read this right now. Tony, You and I have lived through many crisis is, and Cove in 19 certainly has its own characteristics that are unique. But, um, there are always crisis is that we face, and we have to be more resilient with a deeper culture of philanthropy, and fundraising for a one will help you get there.

[00:55:59.84] spk_1:
That’s the book fundraising for a one master classes in non profit fundraising that would make Peter Drucker proud. He’s Lawrence Ape Agnone lap.

[00:56:02.63] spk_0:
The

[00:56:02.74] spk_1:
company is labra lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Lawrence. Thank you very, very much. My pleasure.

[00:56:10.00] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you

[00:57:29.30] spk_1:
for sharing. Okay. Next week, more 20 and TC panel interview Greatness. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo creative producer is Clear My wrath. Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our guy. This music is by Scott’s time with me next week for not profit radio, big non profit ideas. 14 of their 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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Lisa Brauner: Reopening From Coronavirus
My guest is attorney Lisa Brauner. We see the faint light at the end of the tunnel. We’re slowly emerging as we knew we would. But these things must be done delicately. What do you plan ahead for? How do you keep employees safe and can they refuse to return to work? What are reasonable accommodations? Lisa has answers. Lisa has advice. Lisa is a partner at Perlman+Perlman law firm in New York City.

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.34] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:42.84] spk_2:
radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a short special episode of non profit radio to help you cope with the pandemic reopening from Corona virus. My guest is attorney Lisa Brunner. We see the faint light at the end of the tunnel were slowly emerging as we knew that we would. But these things must be done.

[00:00:44.94] spk_3:
Delicate, please.

[00:01:39.04] spk_2:
So, what do we, uh, what we planned for? That’s coming. How do you keep employees safe? And can they refuse to return to work? What are reasonable accommodations? Lisa has answers. Lisa has advice. Lisa is a partner at a prominent Perlman law firm in New York City, responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications um, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Thank you very much. Welcome back, Lisa.

[00:01:41.54] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:43.54] spk_2:
Alright. Thank you for doing another special episode with us. These are these are these are valuable for listeners. Thank you. You’re welcome. Everything okay? Looks ah. Looks bright and sunny in New York is it

[00:02:00.64] spk_0:
is right. Well, it was raining earlier, but looks like the being the son, maybe. Okay. Make its way through. Looks

[00:02:36.98] spk_2:
looks bright. We’ll call it bright and sunny. Okay. Even so, shining light on your beautiful artwork on your walls. Thank you. So you’ve been thinking a lot about what is ahead as states begin to ah, open up the reduced the restrictions on on work at home, our restrictions on work in the office requirements to work at home. It’s happening slowly. There’s, like, I don’t know, maybe half a dozen states or so, so far that if reduce the the restrictions on just on certain industries, So I don’t I don’t know if maybe, you know, Are there states yet that have office workers allowed back to go back that had restrictions before just on office work?

[00:02:49.54] spk_0:
Well, I mean, we hear about in certain states like Georgia that they’ve already started to reopen certain industries.

[00:03:04.44] spk_2:
Right? That’s just restaurants and dollars to point essential. You gotta have those but our people back in offices in Georgia.

[00:03:08.74] spk_0:
I don’t know that people are back in the offices.

[00:03:12.65] spk_2:
Yeah, so but it’s coming. It’s good

[00:03:14.38] spk_0:
calming you write.

[00:03:15.53] spk_2:
That was like

[00:04:23.24] spk_0:
the end of the tunnel on dhe estates air trying to use depending on the states in the measured approach or prioritising which businesses come back first. New York is already talking about the plan for which are the most essential businesses or industries with the least amount of risk, where they can start reopening construction and different and different things. So it’s it’s a kind of a faced approach. It sounds like it’s happening. In New York, for instance, the governor put in a 12 point plan of different things that he expects them would like to see happen. Ah, in order for the reopening to occur and specifically with respect to workplaces, at least in New York, and it may be may be different in different states. There’s an expectation in York that, uh, is part of this plan that employers are going to put into place implement the safety protocol for their

[00:04:37.24] spk_2:
I thought, This is This is one of things we need toe be planning ahead. So, you know, at this stage, we’re planning for returning. Um, you know, but there. I mean, there’s basics. Like, what’s the schedule gonna be? Who’s gonna come? Um, you know, walk us through some of that pre planning. But before we get to the

[00:07:41.34] spk_0:
sure exactly at this point, tony, employers should be pre planning for that day. Ah, and not not necessarily waiting to see what happens. They should be putting a plan in place, which involves things like who? Who is going to continue to work remotely? Who is gonna be actually in the office? How are we going to How are we gonna make that happen? And how we gonna ensure that employees are safe coming back? What could be looking at their finances? What is it that we can afford to do in terms of who we bring back our their employees? That we will not be able to continue employing that we may need to furlough. Who do we need on the ground? Are we going to need to cross train certain employees? So if there’s certain things that need to get done and the employees we need to do them. Can’t do everything. Mm. From home. Do we have other employees that are able to come in who can actually perform some of those functions? What do we need to do physically in our workplace to ensure that the workplace is is safe, for instance, Um, are we gonna have what we have? Sufficient? Will we have masks? Will we have gloves? Do we need to dio, Do we need to sanitize the workplace? In other words, that we’ve wiped down everything all the surfaces, computer keyboards and door knobs. What have we done to ensure to communicate to our employees that the works, the works space that you’re coming back to is actually is actually safe. So having a plan to communicate to employees about what’s been done in terms of safety precautions, considering what type of personal protective equipment or face coverings and things like that, the employer is gonna have figuring out whether they need to do some type of reconfiguration of the actual work space. So, for instance, it in workplaces where they might have more of an open plan where everybody’s together. Ah, what do we need to dio Teoh either reconfigure this space to make it safe so that we can still allow for social distancing. Do we need to put up plastic or plexi glass? But between the areas where employees are working, do we need to set up one way a one way hallway that, you know, this whole way? Everybody goes in this direction and the other hallway, Everybody comes in the opposite direction. In other words, that employers should be coming up with their post pandemic plan for how they’re going to logistically bring employees be back and who’s gonna come back. And also how how are we gonna bring employees back safely?

[00:08:12.17] spk_2:
Okay, that’s a ton of stuff to be thinking about. But you know, all good. So listeners will go back and start taking notes on, like, the 20 things that you just ticked off as a ZX items to be used to be thinking about, um, everybody talks about the PP do. Do employers have AH responsibility requirement or t provide? I don’t gloves and masks. Or is that is that governed by state law? Or just buy your own moral obligation that you feel what what what what guides them in making a decision like that?

[00:10:12.94] spk_0:
Mm. I mean, I think it’s I think it’s adhering to whatever the precautions are of the CDC and Osho, the Centers for Disease Control and on OSHA, Occupational Safety Ah, and Health Administration. In looking to those to that guidance and also any state and local guidance as to whether their directives right now, perhaps with the exception of the essential workers, it’s really being left to the employers to for the most part, unless there’s a state or local directive to do it, it’s being left to employers to make those decisions. But certainly if the CDC is advising that individuals wear face coverings in instances where they can’t social distance, it would be it would behoove an employer to say, You know, we follow the directives of the seedy city. Ah, in protecting our employees is an under under OSHA. Under the Occupational Safety and Health Act, employers have to maintain a workplace that’s free of any hazards. Essentially, they have a duty to to do that, too. Keep the employees safe, you know, pre from hazard. So in the workplace. So so that would extend Teoh. I mean, recommendation would be that employers do provide face coverings to their employees. And and also they may even consider having face coverings available to anyone who’s visiting the workplace. If they have something cups, someone coming on site, who’s gonna be cleaning the work area clients? Anyone who’s going to be coming into the workplace because those individuals could be, if they’re asymptomatic could be infecting one of the employees. So

[00:10:18.74] spk_2:
that would

[00:10:19.09] spk_0:
be, well, advice to do that.

[00:10:49.09] spk_2:
That brings up another issue about people coming to your office, those you’re serving or maybe just like you said. Maybe they’re just the office cleaners or just people routinely come in. You know the mail gets delivered. Ups comes, you know, et cetera. How do you treat people? Coming to your office is not just what do you expect of them? It’s not just what do you expect of employees and what you gonna do for employees but visitors to the office or your other facilities as well? You know, non profits may very well not even now have a second facility. It’s not in office, but it’s where it’s where they serve meals or serve clients in some other way. Those people have to be accommodated.

[00:11:45.08] spk_0:
Yes. So I mean, all those things there such excellent points and which really go to the point of pre planning now Because Because employers can’t they can’t just show up on the first day of work and say, Okay, now we’re you know, now we’re back to work. Ah, we’re going to do the best we can. They really have to plan out in advance. You know what is social distancing gonna look like And our work space. And it’s gonna be different for every non profit. Like in some instances, it could be, you know, setting something up like we see when we go into when we go into a pharmacy or when we go into a supermarket where they’ve actually designated, you know, spots for people who are waiting on line to understand their six feet between you

[00:11:51.05] spk_2:
because it was sitting on the floor.

[00:12:36.34] spk_0:
Exactly. So depending on the non profit, so I’m not gonna be appropriate in every setting, but depending on the non profit and what, who their servicing and what the layout of their workspaces, it’s gonna dictate what it is they need to dio from a social distancing perspective to keep six feet between people, but they have to. Employers should be thinking now, what is it based on who were serving on what we’re doing? And what are configuration is what kinds of changes do we need to make right now to ensure that our employees feel safe, that that the people that we serve that are coming to our work site also feel safe. Uh, you know that that they’re not going to get infected. So eso the pre planning is is, I think, crucial right now.

[00:12:44.75] spk_2:
Otherwise, you just compounding the crisis. If you’re leaving this until the last minute are you know, the week before or something. You know, it’s not gonna be enough time to look at all the guidance because so you said, CDC, OSHA, and you also have to look to the your state whatever state guidance there may be. And even potentially, your city could have guidelines around requirements for businesses.

[00:14:00.84] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely on social distancing. But here’s some other things that I wanted to mention that employers could think about. Two. Is there as they’re planning? Um, I mean, the goal is to to continue the social distancing for now until we know that the threat is over, and so they could consider things like staggering of start times that employees start work staggering in the end times, particularly where people are in larger urban areas. And they may be Trent, you know, traveling by bus or subway where they’re gonna be congregated with a lot of people. And so to reduce that from happening. If employers consider maybe staggering the time that an employee comes to work to avoid Rush Hour or to stagger the time that the employee is going home from work to avoid rush hour, that could be a possibility or changing the day. So we’re

[00:14:16.45] spk_2:
thinking maybe I could get a work day that’s like 10 to 2. Can I squeeze Shoot 10 and leave around two, or maybe to 30 with, and I’ll reduce my lunch to an hour and 15 minutes from an hour and 1/2 That that that is not considered a reasonable accommodation?

[00:14:27.64] spk_0:
Well, a reasonable combination isn’t another context.

[00:14:43.54] spk_2:
I know. Yeah, no, I’m being unreasonable a za potential. But I could never be an employee because that, you know, there are a lot of reasons I couldn’t work for um, so, yeah, I mean, even staggering weeks, maybe. Maybe right 11 team works off site for a week and then comes into the office and the other team, and they rotate it, rotate around that way

[00:15:18.91] spk_0:
absolutely. Or having someone working on a weekend day as opposed to a weekday as a substitute, as a way to to stagger, first of all, so that you are helping the employees reduce the risk if they’re gonna be traveling by mass transit or in a large group. Secondly, er, to reduce the number of people just in the office together at one time. So

[00:15:34.93] spk_2:
there’s a potential, you know, in being flexible like this, there’s a potential to actually, you know, toe help families who, you know, maybe it’s ah, it’s a couple. And it helps them that one of them works on a Saturday or that one of them has, you know, unusual hours tend to six or something. Maybe that helps the family. And so you can build f have that flexibility and also be good to your employees at the same time.

[00:16:17.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say one of the kind of key takeaways from all of this is employers should be flexible in the solutions that they are coming up within this time. That’s so unprecedented, but should should just be flexible on the possibilities of what exactly they can provide and what they can offer in terms of bringing the workers back to work and doing it in a way, that’s that’s Ah, that’s safe. Um, so yeah, well,

[00:16:20.11] spk_2:
I was gonna turn Teoh reasonable accommodations, which I perverted a couple of minutes ago. But, um what what do we need to be thinking about that? What does that phrase mean? And how does it apply here?

[00:22:28.34] spk_0:
So reasonable accommodations. So under the law, employers have a reasonable have a duty to reasonably accommodate employees for because they have a disability for religious practices. Ah, in New York for pregnancy, childbirth and related medical conditions. And so the types of things that one needs to reasonably accommodate an employee for may depend import on your jurisdiction and what that jurisdiction recognizes as being entitled to a reasonable accommodation. But for employers who have 15 or more employees, they are covered under a federal law called the Americans with Disabilities Act. And they have a legal obligation to reasonably accommodate employees who have a disability so that that an employee can perform the essential functions of their job. Unless doing that, we would pose an undue hardship on the organization. So how that looks here in in this cove, it situation is if you have somebody who has a disability, they may set a. My doctor says that I need to continue working from home. Ah, nde working from home, maybe a reasonable accommodation. And for that person, it’s also going to be more difficult for employers to say that doing so would pose an undue hardship in view of the fact that so many people have been working from home because of the situation. So somebody has disability, uh, in New York, for instance, if there pregnant or because of childbirth related medical conditions, they may need to. It may be that they that they need to work from continuing work from home is a reasonable accommodation that could be an example working from home or leave of absence or things like that. So where it gets where it now gets trickier, here is the situation where somebody has an underlying condition. Well, let me first say that the E O. C. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which is the federal agency that enforces the A d. A. Has has not said that Cove in 19 is a disability, said it may be good state and city and a human rights laws like New York City. Human rights laws have said that, yes, this this, uh, is a disability and those laws, this is one of most important things is that even if there’s not a requirement into the federal law, state and city laws maybe much more liberal and protective of employees, then what What the a d a provides. So even if a certain reasonable accommodation may not be required under federal law, it may be required under state and sitting law. And so that brings me to the next point about the sister of reasonable accommodations. And that is one of the wrinkles here. Interesting aspects is that we know that people with certain underlying conditions are more susceptible to contracting the virus, right? So individuals who have diabetes, uh, who have, uh, who have respiratory ailments who have auto immune honestly, maybe may be more vulnerable, uh, or susceptible and so So the question comes up. What about somebody who has an underlying health condition? Um, you know, can they, uh, can they refused to come to work, right? I mean, that’s one of the questions, and it’s an open question. I think employers, they’re gonna have to they’re gonna have to consult with legal counsel about what the state and local laws are with respect to that. Um, but the person has an underlying condition like, for instance, in New York City, New York City just issued guidance. Ah, New York City’s Commission on Human Rights just and that’s the agency that enforces the New York City Human rights Law. They just issued guidance around this issue of underlying conditions that employers may need to reasonably accommodate ah, individuals who have an underlying condition in New York City. And it could be in other jurisdictions to having an association with somebody who has a disability is illegal protection. So let’s say an employee has a family member who has a disability that employer can’t discriminate against, or treat that employees less favourably simply because that person has an association with a person with a disability. So depending on the state and city jurisdictions. There could be greater protections for individuals, depending on whether someone there associated with has a disability, whether the employees themselves has an underlying condition. When that employee says to the employer, I want to continue working from home or I need to take time off or something or something to that effect. So it’s kind of it. It’s another aspect of this that employers need to be thinking about. Not just what is the federal Lost A but one of the state and local law say about how I need to accommodate this person and whether they can refused to come to work because of ah, of the of the fear of, uh, of contracting the virus and they might be entitled to. I’m sorry, Go ahead.

[00:22:48.84] spk_2:
What about if it’s just a fear? But there isn’t un underlying, um, underlying diagnosis that makes them more vulnerable either themselves or someone there associated with suppose. It’s just a generalized fear of traveling and returning to work without any underlying medical issue.

[00:25:14.47] spk_0:
Generally, they wouldn’t be able to refuse unless there is Yeah, generally, I mean, once the stay at home order has lifted. Ah, and e No employers are clear to reopen their workspaces. Someone’s general fear isn’t gonna be illegal. Generally gonna be illegal. Ah, excuse provided legal excuse from them not to return to work. I mean, if they if they’re entitled to paid sick leave or paid extended family leave for one of the reasons under the families first grown of his response act, That’s one thing. Generalized Fear, uh, is not going to give them a legal claim for refusing to come back to work. That said, uh, to the extent that employers can reassure their employees as to number one, the efforts of the employers taken in the workplace, them safe. I’ve heard situations of employers who they hire a private van or bust or something where they’re going to bring employees into work to avoid having to deal with mass transit. So employers can be creative and ways in which they can support their employees on reassure the employees about the safety of both being at the workplace and coming to the workplace and being flexible and accommodating, even when there may not be a legal obligation to do so. But for reasons of employee morale and motivating employees finding creative and flexible ways to support employees coming back to the workplace. You know, alternative ways for them to get to work. Ah, and reassuring them that we’re providing face coverings and and gloves so that you feel safe when you’re here. We have protocols for people who are visiting the workplace so that we know you know, that they’re taking precautions when they’re gonna be interacting with you as an employee. Those things go a long way for employees to feel reassured that they that they’re gonna be that their safety concerns are being addressed.

[00:26:18.91] spk_2:
A lot of a lot of what you’re suggesting today is consistent with what you said in the very first. You and I did the very first special episode together, which was probably five weeks or so ago when when we were on the other. We’re talking about other things, just planning for working at home, and a lot of your advice there was be flexible. Um, be thinking ahead. What’s it gonna look like when you, when your workforce is distributed back to home, are after their homes communicate? That was a central message then, and it still is, and this is exactly what you’re saying. Now, you know, communicate with your employees about what you’ve done about what you’re going to do, um, to help them just be reassured. So I mean, the details are different because we’re going from home to back to the office is But your overall messages about be flexible, communicate, um, have some empathy. You know, those air plan ahead. Those are the same things you were saying five weeks ago about the opposite situation.

[00:28:13.44] spk_0:
We are on the other side. It’s true. But those those values and those tools I think are the same because those are the things that give employees reassurance that everything gonna be okay on dhe on dhe. People may have fear about coming back to the office coming into the office again. So to the extent those things can be done, you know they should be done on employers, you know, because we’re in the pandemic. They have also some more flexibility in terms of certain things that otherwise might not be able to do under the Americans with Disabilities Act like taking employees temperatures, although not everybody who has Cove in 19 has a fever, but employers can do that? They can scream. Okay. They can. They can. They can ask employees whether they have the, you know, particular symptoms that have been identified specifically with covert 19. Uh, they can insist that employees self report to them. If those employees start exhibiting any of those symptoms to let them know, uh, employers could do that. Now, of course, they have to keep any any medical information, which includes the results of temperatures and things like that. If they were to do that, they have a legal obligation to keep that information confidential. So whether they decide they’re gonna take the temperatures and record those temperatures or they decide, we’re only gonna look to see if somebody is above a certain threshold. And we’re only going to indicate on a form that they were either below or above the threshold. They can make those determinations themselves about how they they want to administer it. But whatever the results are, they must keep that information confidential. Um,

[00:28:29.31] spk_2:
yeah, I want todo Did you have more than you wanted to say on that? Uh, I thought that what employers? How much further? Employers can go now with questions. And then you know, you still got to or cause I was gonna ask, I was gonna start asking something else, but

[00:28:34.19] spk_0:
I’m sure I know. Go ahead. OK,

[00:28:35.88] spk_2:
OK. The, um

[00:28:37.74] spk_0:
what do you do

[00:28:51.64] spk_2:
in the case where someone is, um, is happier on unemployment because, you know, there’s, ah, there’s that federal bump of $600 a week. Um, plus, whatever the state is paying unemployment benefits, Um, what if you have You just have a recalcitrant employees who is happier receiving the unemployment than then they would be going back to

[00:29:35.05] spk_0:
work. So that’s an excellent question and something that we actually see. And I think first of all, the bump ends on July 31st. That’s the first thing the $600 additional, Uh, so that’s the first thing that the second thing is typically to be eligible for unemployment insurance. The person has to be ready, willing and able toe work. And if they’re being offered a job back, they may be in a situation where they end up being disqualified from unemployment insurance.

[00:29:40.28] spk_2:
You have to certify right that you, I guess, includes that you turned down employment. If you did right, I don’t have to certify. I mean, I know in North Carolina, you have to certify each week it’s probably routine, uh, about white Look for a job, you know, things like that. So it just if you turned down your existing employers offer of returning to work, Um, that’s that would disqualify you for unemployment.

[00:30:15.76] spk_0:
They may. They may be depending on the state deemed ineligible to continue receiving unemployment. If they were then offered hope so. Yes. Oh,

[00:30:19.64] spk_2:
I’m happy here.

[00:30:21.24] spk_0:
It is this way until

[00:30:35.64] spk_2:
July 31st. I’m very content right here. Right. OK, so there’s a mechanism for dealing with that on the on the unemployment insurance state level. Yeah, hopefully. OK, alright. We could dismiss that hypothetic. But you said you ve seen that, or you’ve heard it already.

[00:30:41.64] spk_0:
They were because they’re making more money at this point. So it

[00:30:45.27] spk_2:
was a purely hypothetical. You’ve heard

[00:30:47.20] spk_0:
I exactly. Yeah.

[00:31:24.46] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Well, not all employees air lazy and not all employers or scruple. Unscrupulous. So, you know, make that z ensure we, uh, fair to both sides. Um, And on this, by the same token, there’s enough blame to go around for everybody. Um So what do we have? Toe? You know, you’ve talked about so many different things. Do we have to have written policies about You know what the expectations are gonna be when you return? We’re gonna be standing for fever. Will be issuing PPS. Um, here’s our policy for visitors to the office. Now you need to comply with this. If you see a visitor, you welcome a visitor. Do there’s always need to be in writing.

[00:34:17.69] spk_0:
Um, not everything needs to be in writing, but certain things should be in writing so that everybody is on the same page. I think I think employers can communicate just again. It depends on the size of the employer as well. In terms of whether something will be in writing or not. I think that you know more long term, longer term policies, uh, and protocols. I mean, you could have you number one. If you do have people continuing to work remotely, definitely want to have a policy on that. You want to have an agreement with that employee so everybody understands what is being expected. What? The terms are what you’re expecting with respect to employees to record their time for those that air covered by the overtime pay laws. You want to make sure that everybody understands about the importance of confidentiality and protecting the data security and and all that for employees in accounting to work remotely for paid sick leave on pay, extended paid family leave under the families First Law. You certainly want to have policies addressing those and the interplay with your other paid time off policies for absolutely for protocols on visitors to the workplace and things like that. Uh, depending on the size of the organization, you you will. You would want to have a policy addressing that particularly things are now changed in terms of how you’re gonna be interacting with visitors to the workplace, does it all the things that you would want to to have, uh, you would want to have policies on for sure. Andi would also want to train your managers and your employees about what these new policies are. So have a chance to address questions, but particularly the managers who were gonna be enforcing these policies. I mean, it’s ultimately in many cases, gonna be a to the managers who will be enforcing the social distancing who will be addressing, you know, safety concerns. Who will be, um, who will also be may be involved in decisions about who’s coming back into the workplace and who’s not. And you want to be careful about that as well that there isn’t, uh, discrimination happening either. You know, people are paying, being desperately treated or you have some type of neutral policy that’s disproportionately impacting older people. Pregnant women, etcetera. And also there’s been a noted increase in in bias against Asians, Um, during this pandemic, um, both in the workplace and outside the workplace.

[00:34:23.65] spk_2:
We talked about that five weeks ago.

[00:34:25.16] spk_0:
We did so

[00:34:26.40] spk_2:
the possibility of that. Yeah,

[00:34:55.34] spk_0:
exactly. So it’s It’s really important that employers are reminding all their employees about their policies, prohibiting discrimination and doing any supplemental training that they feel is necessary to ensure that there aren’t derogatory comments. Remarks directed at Asians Has everyone returns to the workplace. So increased training. I would say a lot of

[00:35:02.56] spk_2:
love can be done in advance. You can be absolutely obviously developing the policies, but also training about the policy discussing them before the first day back.

[00:35:08.51] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, could be doing that now.

[00:35:13.69] spk_2:
So planning, developing and communicating than training that stuff could all be done in advance. Virtually

[00:36:00.88] spk_0:
yes, yeah, all that could be done. So and also just you know what the employers planning to do exactly. From a safety perspective, you know that they’re adhering to the CDC protocols and directives and what OSHA is recommending and just reassuring their employees about what they’re doing to keep them safe on dhe and also what the mechanism is for employees to bring forth any issues. Like if an employee in a particular work site feels that their manager hasn’t been, Ah hasn’t been acting consistently with what the organization says it’s being done or that there isn’t social distancing happening or the people they feel. The people aren’t taking precautions to keep them safe. Employers want to make sure that they hear from those employees so that it can be addressed, so they want to make sure they communicate whatever the mechanism is for employees to to bring those issues forward.

[00:36:38.37] spk_2:
Okay, Lisa, I think that’s pretty comprehensive. That’s enormously comprehensive. Um, I mean, I was like my takeaways are planned. Be flexible, communicate train, You know, on all these dozens of different things that we talked about. What? That’s that’s what I That’s what I’m thinking. Like in the end. What do you want to leave people

[00:37:51.63] spk_0:
with? I think those air I think those air perfect takeaways. Actually, all of those things be flexible in solution plan. Now for what reopening is gonna look like whose whose ableto continue to work from home. Who on Who needs to come back to the office? Are we being Are we making these decisions for lit? Legitimate, non just discriminatory business reasons. Is it gonna have a disparate impact on a particular group? Older people pregnant, you know, take a look at your decisions and what the impact potentially could be, uh, or will bay in making your decisions plan and, uh, and and the and be flexible in your in your solutions on a train train your employees train your managers to make sure that they’re following the protocols that you’ve put in place and that they have awaited to raise any grievances or complaints or concerns eso that those get can get addressed.

[00:37:57.33] spk_2:
Okay, Incredibly comprehensive. Thank you very much. Lisa,

[00:38:01.00] spk_0:
you’re very welcome. My pleasure, tony.

[00:38:31.86] spk_2:
Thanks for doing it responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, P. R and Media for non profits, Your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot CEO. Creative producer

[00:38:47.11] spk_1:
is My Half Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy. His music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Many thanks to Susan and Mark for helping get this special episode out very quickly with me next time for non radio, big,

[00:38:49.86] spk_2:
non profit ideas for the other 90

[00:38:53.74] spk_1:
5% go out and be great.

Special Episode: Nonprofits & CARES Act

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My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Nonprofits & CARES Act
The CARES Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the Act that nonprofits can take advantage of. Benefits for your org and your staff. And they’re pretty good. So you may want to apply. Plus, longer term relief for nonprofit fundraising. Gene Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 

 

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[00:01:07.49] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special short episode of non profit radio to meet the needs of nonprofits during the Corona virus pandemic. This is our fourth special episode. Non Profits and Cares Act. The Cares Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the act that nonprofits can’t take advantage of benefits for your organ and your staff, and they’re pretty good, so you may want to apply. Plus, there’s longer term relief for nonprofits. Non profit fundraising. Jean Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group Jean Welcome. How are you?

[00:01:09.60] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you very much, tony, for allowing me to share information with your with your audience.

[00:01:15.42] spk_3:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. I know you’ve been ah, believing it is my pleasure. You’ve been busy all week talking about the Cares Act, I’m sure.

[00:01:26.18] spk_0:
Definitely everybody interested in in, uh, how nonprofits can take advantage and really thankful that there’s some advocacy groups out there that got nonprofits considered in these in these Lost?

[00:02:11.24] spk_3:
Yeah, for sure. Explicitly in in some cases. So all your work this week has led you to this to this pinnacle non profit radio. So it’s all led up to here. So thank you for all that preparation that you’ve been doing toe to talk to our listeners. Um, is it is it best if we, uh, you want to start with an overview? I mean, I definitely want to get into the paycheck protection program and the economic injury disaster loans. Do you want to start a broader than that before we get in that specific? Well,

[00:02:51.14] spk_0:
I’ll just mention that the Cares act is this $2.2 billion package. And, um, when provisions were put in for small businesses, it was really important. Thio note that nonprofits are out there who are also employers who are also desperate for assistance at this time. And thio have non profits put into provisions like the payroll protection program are really important. But this is, um, just part of the legislation that’s come down since the Corona virus pandemic has hit us and and our federal government has started paying attention to what needs our country’s having great now desperate needs in many cases. And there was a set of laws called the Families First Corona Virus Response Act. That duck with leaves a swell paid leaves by employees. And so that’s another component that I hope we get a chance to talk about in addition to the care, Zach.

[00:03:19.34] spk_3:
Okay, Um, all right, so why don’t we? Why don’t we take care of that? What’s the what’s the the leave? The leave provisions? So the

[00:04:46.65] spk_0:
leave provisions in basically apply to again small businesses, including non profits with less than 500 employees and provided for two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now, sick leave isn’t required to be federally from under federal law to be. I hate it. In many cases, some states do require it. But here is a federal law ah, that required now all small employers, including non profits, to provide two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now there are some exceptions that might be possible for employers that had less than 50 employees for undue hardship, Um, for really, really small organizations where that’s just not at all possible that that is a standard that they might be able to to meet. But generally this applies to everyone, and the amount of paid sick leave is at the employees regular rate up to $511 per day. So it’s captain a 10 days or 5100 and $10. Okay, um, and if it is to take care of ah, child or, you know because of the child is is the one who’s sick or the child is, uh, needs child care because their schools of clothes because of quarantine rules, then the amount would be the employees regular rate up to $200 per day. So not the full 511. But it would be. Actually, I’m sorry. The employers rate times 2/3 that 2/3 of the employers rate or a captain $200 per day for that 10 days. So that’s the first section required. Paid sickly.

[00:05:05.28] spk_3:
Okay, where can we find this in writing somewhere? So because that’s a lot to digest. Yeah, it’s See this on the web.

[00:05:36.24] spk_0:
So if you just Google families first Corona Virus Response Act, um, the National Council of non profit actually had a good site on that. So that maybe a place to look Okay, Cool. Uh, the other leave that they have is a 12 week of emergency family and medical leave, and basically it’s a 10 week add on to the two weeks that you originally had. But this is only for care of family members again. Child care. If there’s a sick child due to the Corona virus or their school got quarantined, and child care is required to be provided

[00:05:50.87] spk_3:
that it is not to be child care, could it be care of someone else in the family who’s not a child?

[00:05:56.64] spk_0:
It could be another dependent. I believe that that’s Ah provided a family member

[00:06:02.02] spk_3:
dependent. Okay, but that wouldn’t be a parent then, unless the parent was independent.

[00:06:38.48] spk_0:
I don’t know that that currents are included will have to wait to see if, if the regulation spell that out become. And that’s an additional 10 weeks and again to the to the 12 weeks that sorry to the two weeks that that’s in the original act. And that’s a 2/3 of each employee’s usual pay up to $200 per day. Now, this is a huge burden on employers, right? All of a sudden, if they hadn’t been required to pay leave before now they’re required to pay leave. And obviously, a lot of employers are gonna be cash strapped now if their businesses have closed and things so the these air not available if the workplace is completely closed down. Um, and the other thing to know that employers can recoup these costs through a payroll tax credit. So details kind of in the regulations or in some of the sites, including the National Council of non profit sites I mentioned. But employers can recoup these costs. Employees are getting paid sick leave under these provisions. So that was one of the immediate loss that came out

[00:07:10.84] spk_3:
when you say the workplace must be closed. You mean the organization Shut down. You don’t mean the office closed, do you? Or do you?

[00:07:18.60] spk_0:
If the office is closed and the employees are unable to perform their jobs from home, so if

[00:07:38.18] spk_3:
and unable to be able to work from home Oh, correct. Okay. Okay. Because of the caregiving that they’re providing a correct. All right. Um, can we go to the to the S B a loans. Okay. Is that right?

[00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s that’s one. Probably critical.

[00:08:42.84] spk_3:
Okay, Yes. I want to make sure we exhausted the other. The other information that you had, I want to say just to get started. The S B a site s b a dot gov is very, very simple. I think I was able to understand it, Um s p a dot gov and then you’ll be looking at this basketball size picture of a Corona virus. You can’t possibly miss it on the site, and you just click in there and to learn more. And then you just scroll right down to Corona virus funding options. And then, ah, Pedro opens up with, ah, lot of what we will. Well, it’ll be. It’ll cover what? Gene and I are about to talk about the paycheck protection program. The e i D. L. Which is the economic interest, Economic injury, disaster loan. And then there’s a couple of others too, so it’s really very, very helpful, I think thea CSB a site s p a dot gov um Shall we start with the paycheck protection program gene that that’s also only for employers of 500 or fewer right employees.

[00:09:31.68] spk_0:
Yeah, fewer than 500 employees, including non profit. So really a big point to add that nonprofits are eligible for this. Ah, and agreed that this is an important provision. $349 billion was dedicated towards this. And on the date that we’re recording this tony is the first day that the application theoretically was released. Um, but these loans are available by S from S P a lender’s ah, that would include most F d I C insured banks. But not all of these institutions are ready to implement this, even though the application theoretically came out today. And one of the concerns that everybody is having on day one is that the regulations just came out as an interim rule last night.

[00:09:47.06] spk_3:
Yeah, so that just right, Just Thursday, just last night, something came out. Yeah,

[00:11:04.31] spk_0:
And while the application and and the SP a site makes it look easy, there are a lot of unanswered questions or ambiguities, and that is making with lenders have have a problem. Ah t implement this. Some people are guessing all of the loans are going to run out on day one because $349 billion. Sounds like a lot. But if you say every small business in the country is eligible thio to take this in every small amount profit, there’s only so much that that money is going to last. And there’s a question about whether the lenders are going to prefer their own clients. So their existing clients that have loans with the organizations are they gonna prefer the larger clients because they value their business, for which, you know their banks are going to reach some sort of reward over time. Are they gonna value them ahead? Was a small non profit that’s coming in? So my best advice is to try to go in to your own bank, find out if they are an SP a lender, uh, and make your case to them as quickly as possible. I don’t know that everything will be depleted on day one. I’m That might be the worst case scenario, I believe while Spargo Bank has not started yet because of issues with implementation, So there are there are going to be problems getting this rolling, but once it rolls, the money’s not gonna last very long. So I would say to the extent you can I get your paperwork together very quickly. The SP A site lets you know kind of what type of paperwork is required for this, and there’s not a lot. It’s not like a traditional known as well, tony. I guess that’s maybe the first thing I

[00:11:40.04] spk_3:
should be relaxed some of the some of the requirements and they’ve really streamlined the the application, especially for this. I know for myself, Um, well, we’ll get to the economic injury loan. But just from one day to the next the economic injury loan, the application went from like four different forms you had to fill out last Sunday night to Monday when it was just streamlined, like two or three. It was like there was three screens. You just had a pick selections and make a bunch of certifications, and you were done and it was much more burdensome just the day before.

[00:12:15.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and these things have been changing on the Fly, the paycheck protection program. In the best scenario about this, that nonprofits need to know which. Maybe I shouldn’t have hidden the ball, hit

[00:12:28.73] spk_3:
the ball, start figuring it out. That’s okay,

[00:12:31.40] spk_6:
is

[00:12:32.64] spk_0:
why it’s so great. If you can access, it is it’s alone. That’s forgivable. Meaning that it’s essentially a grant s. Oh, it’s a loan that you’re going to make. And then if you keep up your payroll force, um, you pretty much get to recoup all of it back. And that’s a huge thing, right? To be able to keep your work staff on so that that’s the big point.

[00:13:23.89] spk_3:
And the details of that are in the, uh, in that on that s B a site that I, uh that I that I was suggesting people go to says, You know, you’re if you haven’t kept everybody, you have to rehire everybody, I think, by June 20th or June 30th of this year. But the details are on the SP, a site. It’s really it’s in plain language. It’s really pretty simple to understand what you’re committing to. But even if you know, even if you’re not able to keep up your workforce on and not have it converted to a grant, at least it is. It’s a very favorable

[00:13:32.34] spk_7:
Hello,

[00:13:33.34] spk_0:
right? It’s 0.5% less than 1/2 a percent

[00:13:38.53] spk_3:
and deferred interest is deferred for the 1st 6 months.

[00:13:41.41] spk_0:
Correct? And do on a two years. Right now, though, they’re very likely could be an extension. And we may see variations of this and hopefully, more appropriations of more money. Should they run out of this amount. I I’m pretty sure the federal government knows that this is still phase one. Ah, and they’re going to be additional phases necessary on an individual level as well as on on entity level.

[00:14:15.84] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. Anything more you want to add about Thea about the PPP, The paycheck protection program

[00:14:55.84] spk_0:
show? Sure. So let’s talk about what it what it what the loan is for Andi. That’s exactly what it refers to payroll to paying your payroll. But it also includes utilities interest on your mortgage, not the principal on your mortgage, but interest on your mortgage, uh, and rent. So you and utility so some some occupancy costs and employee costs. And generally the amount of the loan is going to be determined by 2.5 months, essentially 2.5 times the average totally monthly payroll costs based on ah, one year. I’m sorry. Based on the last year. A test period, right that times a 2.5 times monthly payroll costs. That’s something Thio think about as being a huge, huge help at this time.

[00:15:24.31] spk_3:
That’s that’s 10 weeks worth of payroll, plus those of expenses that you mentioned interest on mortgages, utilities, et cetera, And

[00:17:39.70] spk_0:
no collateral. No personal guarantee is not like other S b A loan. So, um, a CZ, long as you’re under 500 employees there, few other qualifications, some of them I’m not so happy about that. You know, if you if you’ve got a criminal record or anything yeah, an indictment, you don’t qualify for it. Um, not not even a conviction there, Justin Indictment. So it’s It’s interesting formulas that would come up with that. I’m sure there was, ah lot of haggling on the floor to get something up quickly, but that’s what we have that there are a lot of details in this one area of confusion that I mentioned tony in BET That’s maybe creating a little bit of headaches for for banks and lenders and also for organizations that are trying to share information about this, including May is what about independent contractor costs. So we talked about payroll and payroll. You know, from a legal accounting standpoint, we’re talking about employees, right? But what if what about the non profits that are paying people? Is independent contractors Ah, and my understanding. And based on the interim rule that came out last night from the S B A. That payroll costs do not include independent contractor costs. Although I’m seeing conflicting information from independent sector and the Council of Now, not the National Council of Nonprofits right now about that issue and partly because the application refers to do you have employees or independent contractors that are reported as 10 90 nines? That’s what the application says, which would lead you to to think that if you can have either or that there must be some benefit if you have independent contractors that you’re paying as well. But part of my rational, I’m thinking that the SP a interim rule is probably right on this issue is that independent contractors, even sole proprietorships, can apply for this loan forgivable loan program, the payroll protection program themselves, so they don’t have to rely on hiring entity to do it for them. They can apply for it directly. So we’re a little confusion. They’re not absolutely clear. I don’t think any of us can say with 100% that we know the truth. Oh,

[00:18:14.34] spk_3:
so at this stage, are you best leaving independent contractors out of your calculation of payroll for purposes of of the PPP just so that you don’t, you know, muddy up your application with a possible problem that would that would hold it up and then knowing that maybe you can go back when you get further guidance? If you’re If you are using a lot of 10 99 contractors, I think this is gonna

[00:18:15.17] spk_0:
be processed very quickly. And

[00:18:18.14] spk_3:
you think they’re gonna get you think they’re gonna gloss over issues like this in the beginning and very possibly clean up later?

[00:19:01.94] spk_0:
Yeah, very possibly. The problem with including the 10 99 contractors, Maybe Twofold. One is that if they weren’t intended to be included, will the government say that’s not gonna be forgivable? And is your budgeting based on you know, making these considering these grants rather than loans? And it very well could be that if you report independent contractors, they may just say No, this isn’t forgivable. The whole thing is alone. That’s one consideration. I don’t think as nonprofits think about this and end the limited amount of money that’s available. They shouldn’t count on this. They should definitely apply for it as quickly as possible. But they shouldn’t 100% count on it being available for them

[00:19:17.72] spk_3:
available and forgivable and unforgivable. That’s Yeah,

[00:19:21.63] spk_0:
that’s correct. That’s a really important. Okay, point. All

[00:19:56.70] spk_3:
right, balance, balance these things as you’re doing your application. You know, maybe get advice from a board member. Certainly legal counsel, if you have that. But but don’t you know, I don’t think you should let these potential problems hang you up and not not participate yet. Get your application in. You know, you might decide not to include your 10 99 contractors. Maybe that’s a decision you make. But you get it in at least for your for your payroll, your payroll, folks, your employees so that you know you could be covered for 10 weeks of, uh, 10 weeks of payroll. I mean, that’s that’s valuable. You get the get the darn thing in, make a decision and get it in one way or the other.

[00:20:22.40] spk_0:
Yeah, and have all the material available, including your independent contractor, information available. They’re asking for it in the application, so your bank will probably help determine whether that they’ll include that in the loan or not. Just bring it all in. Get your paperwork ready. I know everybody’s inundated with work that’s trying to keep things together. Leaders are, and this is worth the time.

[00:20:27.87] spk_3:
Yeah, is 10 weeks of payroll Yes, it’s

[00:20:30.10] spk_0:
time. It’s huge. So you’ve gotta put other things aside to get this done and get it done as early as possible because

[00:20:37.09] spk_3:
of you. You’re talking about the money. All right,

[00:20:39.48] spk_0:
get it, Get it ready early next week, if you can.

[00:20:56.04] spk_3:
Let’s move to the ER the i d l. You know, I hate jargon wth the economic injury disaster loan. Um, this is this is different. This is this is other types of expenses, Gene. Yeah. So it’s

[00:20:56.83] spk_0:
work. It’s a working capital loans essentially. So it could be used for payroll. But if you can’t apply for both in and put the same use for both, So if you ask for apparel protection program loan, you can also ask for an e idea alone for the same reason. But you could ask for a different reason for working capital in another other business costs that you’re gonna have. Um, and again, this is designed for small businesses and small nonprofits. But there’s only $10 billion that’s allocated here, So it’s a lot less than the other program. Yeah, but go ahead and apply for it as early as possible.

[00:21:45.37] spk_3:
Now, this has a great feature. Ah, $10,000 advance. That’s an advance on the loan. And that could be forgivable, right? And that’s it. Get their inherent

[00:21:52.04] spk_0:
right. Even if you get turned down. If you whether you get accepted or not, the $10,000 is years to keep.

[00:21:55.25] spk_3:
Oh, it’s whether you get turned out. So even if you’re approved for the loan, the $10,000 advance is still forgivable. Is that right?

[00:22:01.45] spk_0:
I I believe it needs not. It does not need to be repaid in either case.

[00:22:49.34] spk_3:
Okay, okay. My understanding of it. And they’re saying that this is gonna hit your bank within 3 to 5 days of your application. Now, I already applied for my business more than three days ago and I haven’t gotten it. Hasn’t been quite been five business days. It’s been four on. I haven’t seen it yet. So don’t Don’t be wedded to the 3 to 5 days it’s gonna cause they do ask for your bank account. They ask for your account number, they ask for your routing number. Um, uh, so they are intending to deposit this $10,000 advance quickly, But you know, you may not get it within the 3 to 5 days, but it is forgivable and and it is an advance on the loan, so it comes fast, and then the loan consideration is a longer term process, right? So

[00:23:38.35] spk_0:
it gets paid without them processing the loan at all. And you just get paid based on the application, which is fantastic, um, and, uh, again really something to take advantage of, but limited funds. So go in as early as possible. It’s great, tony, that you went in very early. People should should do that again early next week, and this is separate from the paycheck protection program. But if you do get accepted for the forgiveness of loan under the first act of paycheck protection Program, that we talked about that $10,000 under this sea idea will be counted against the cap on that. So just just note that you can’t double dip here. Okay? Okay, but the loan interest rate is 2.75%. Ah, and the maximum term is 30 years. It’s gonna be dependent upon your credit worthiness. So it follows more standard procedures and the paycheck protection lung, which again doesn’t matter what your credit is. Doesn’t matter if you have outstanding loans or not. The first, the 1st 1 that we talked about the forgivable loans disciplined

[00:24:03.84] spk_7:
a

[00:24:26.00] spk_3:
little tighter requirements. Lending requirements more more typical than then what? They waved for the payroll protection. Her act. Okay. Okay. Um, anything you want to add about economic injury, Disaster loan? The e i D. L again, it’s all this is all very well. Very clearly laid out. Big pictures on the S B, a dot gov website. Yes.

[00:24:35.48] spk_0:
I guess I’ll just say that it’s available also for debt payment. So your your ongoing business expenses, including debt payment.

[00:25:21.30] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, so we got some longer term relief. Uh, regarding the charitable income tax, the federal charitable income tax deduction that we, uh, you know, in the ER in the tax and, well, I don’t forget the formal name, Tax and Jobs Act. Ah, there was, uh, there was a reduction in the It took away an incentive for non itemizers to make charitable gif ts. And so And we’ve seen some hit there because the vast moon is that the vast majority the majority of people do not itemize their taxes. Uh, but we got some. We got some relief. So the

[00:27:17.08] spk_0:
tax cuts and jobs act from Thank you your job back from a couple of years ago raised the standard deduction, almost doubling it. The impact of that is it left about 8% of the taxpayers itemizers, so it’s a very, very small portion that actually get the benefit of a charitable contribution deduction. Because the charitable contribution deduction is one of the itemized deductions that you get. So more than 90% of taxpayers get no tax benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction until this act until the cars that came into play. Now, this is only a one year provisions, but I’m hope it’s a precursor for a change in the law to allow for a universal deduction so that there’s more equity across every taxpayer for getting some sort of benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction. So now it looks like it’s on Lee applicable to those generally who are a little bit more wealthier than others, that that have the ability to itemize, taxes, their deductions and get a tax benefit from that and this above the line deduction. How accountants refer to it It’s for $300 so anybody who makes a contribution can get $300 off if it’s to a qualifying charity. And some of the big charities that do not qualify donor advised funds. That’s kind of an important want to note. So don’t advice funds typically used by a little bit more wealthier individual that would tend to itemize taxes their tax returns. But that will not qualify. And that helps to get the money into the stream of operating charities quicker than those that are sort of keeping funds in accounts for years without a that payment respect provisions.

[00:28:33.24] spk_3:
I’m hoping that that $300 will increase in the future, but at least as you said, it’s a start. It’s It’s $300 up to $300 per per taxpayer. And it’s just for this year 2020 so that anyone itemizing or not, could get at least that much. $300 uh, removed from, you know, exempt from, um, you’re from your taxable income or, well, I’m getting into the weeds about how it’s calculated. Let’s not go there. You get it. You have a federal charitable income tax deduction, if you’re if you’re a non itemizers up to $300. So that’s something that when you when you are making your fundraising messaging again because we will get back to that, there will be times when will be the right time for you to talk about your needs and how your donors can help you fill. Those is maybe even these especially critical and unbudgeted needs. You can make it clear that, ah, that nine non itemizers among your donors can I get a federal income tax charitable deduction for up to $300. That may move some people. I

[00:29:32.64] spk_0:
think there’s an op ed. I can’t remember if it was in the Chronicle of Philanthropy or not earlier this week. Tony, that talked about the need to give to smaller charities at this time. Those were the ones that are gonna be really struggling. And if you really value a small charity, this $300 deduction that you wouldn’t have received before may be just what, you know, tip some people over to helping the small charities. And I’m hoping that that’s that’s true. I’m not sure what type of impact this will have for most people who are probably very fearful right now about where their income is coming from. A lot of unemployment going on right now. And there’s some chairs act provisions that deal with unemployment that we can talk about two. But it’s a scary time, but there will be a time when we’re back. Fundraising. Yeah, this is This is gonna be important, as is the case for a little bit, um, of the wealthier er taxpayer. That is capped by the amount of deductions that can take for charitable contribution. And the traditional cap had been 50% of their adjusted gross income. And if it was a cash donation, the tax cuts and job, Zack said. 60% of your adjusted gross income was your cap of how much you could take for charitable contribution deduction. So if you made $100,000 in adjusted gross income that you were going to report to the I. R. S, you could take up to a $50,000 or if it was a cash contribution to a charity $60,000 deduction off that amount, that was the limitation. This year, that limit is gone. So if you wanted to donate 100,000 of your $100,000 adjusted gross income, you could take a deduction for the full amount.

[00:30:21.51] spk_3:
Yeah, and this is this is a provision that’s mostly for the wealthy. Very few donors bump up against the limitations against there adjusted gross income in in their charitable deductions that it’s not very common, right. But we got some. We got some relief

[00:30:34.24] spk_0:
for older people who may not make very much an income anymore. That’s that’s maybe the primary beneficiary of this. To the extent that they have still disposable income to to provide for charitable giving.

[00:32:03.00] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, Gene. Sound good sounds get all right. I want to Thank you very much for doing this. Ah, you know, E. I usually give you a lot more Notice Thio to put a show together. So So thank you. Thank you very much for helping with this special episode. Because I know I know it helps our listeners. That’s that’s really the key. Thanks, Gene. Thanks so much. And I want to remind listeners that were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers Karl Mayer off Sam Lee Woods is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and the music you’ll be hearing shortly because it’s hard to put it in right over this when it’s on the fly. Special episode is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. Many thanks to Sam, Susan and Mark for helping me get this special episode out to you quickly and, of course, to Jean as well for your for your time on fly, Jean. Thank you. You with me? Next time for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Stay safe and be great.