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Nonprofit Radio for August 23, 2021: How We Got Here

My Guest:

Robert Penna: How We Got Here

It’s the story of the unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s U.S. nonprofit sector. How did we come to be what we are? The story is told by Dr. Robert Penna, author of the book, “Braided Threads.” (Originally aired 8/3/18)

 

 

 

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[00:00:02.84] spk_3:
Hello

[00:01:19.44] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into this phase asia if I had to swallow the idea that you missed this week’s show how we got here. It’s the story of the unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s U. S. Nonprofit sector. How did we come to be what we are? The story is told by dr robert, Penna, author of the book, braided threads This originally aired on August 3, 2018, Antonis take two truly sharing is caring, were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Let’s get started here is how we got here.

[00:02:10.34] spk_0:
I’m very glad to welcome dr robert m pena bob back to the studio. Um he’s the author of the new book braided threads, a historical overview of the american nonprofit sector. He served for five years as a consultant to charity navigator and also as an outcomes consultant to the World Scout Bureau. Indeed, his last book was the nonprofit outcomes toolbox, which we talked about on this very show. He’s presented before, nonprofit organizations and associations across the U. S. And in Canada Poland kenya Saudi Arabia and Australia bob is a native of the Bronx new york and he still sounds like it, even though he lives in Wilmington north Carolina. You’ll find him in his book at braided threads dot com. Welcome back bob

[00:02:13.96] spk_1:
Bennett, thank you very much for

[00:02:15.13] spk_0:
having come a little closer having.

[00:02:16.49] spk_1:
Thank you very much for having me. My pleasure. Thank

[00:02:25.34] spk_0:
you for coming to the studio. Um, this braided threads, overview,

[00:02:26.06] spk_1:
overview. Um,

[00:02:28.54] spk_0:
let’s see what, you know, we’re,

[00:02:30.64] spk_2:
I think that, you

[00:02:39.04] spk_0:
know, I think you make the point, there’s just not enough of an appreciation among those of us in the nonprofit sector. Well, it’s, it’s not

[00:02:39.90] spk_1:
just where we are, where

[00:02:41.08] spk_0:
we came from, where we came from.

[00:03:19.84] spk_1:
Well, I think a lack of knowledge about the sector is probably throughout the population, but for those of us that work in it. Um, most people know it’s time to think about where it’ll come from. And uh, like so much else around us, we americans are notorious for lack of a historical sense generally. Uh, we just kind of accept that, you know, okay, that mall was built for my convenience right before I was born, forgetting about what was there before being a farmer. God only knows what is the same thing with the sector. Um, people just accept it for what it is today and you know, they don’t know the real size of the real dramatic uh, economic impact. And um, I thought that that story ought to be told. It actually started, uh, what I thought was gonna be a chapter in another work and it got as big as a book. And it was to me a fascinating, fascinating story.

[00:03:33.44] spk_0:
What’s the thread that you think is most important

[00:03:46.94] spk_1:
Resilience through the history resilience. In other words, it has changed. The reason it’s called braided threads is because it is not one unbroken series of events that took place in sequential owner and all in one line is a metaphor

[00:03:54.21] spk_0:
really for the history and and the strength. I thought

[00:04:23.24] spk_1:
both of the sector, there are all these different things that were happening that when they were woven together gave us what we have today. Uh, so that’s where the, the title came from. But if you had to pick one thing, I think it’s a story of resiliency. It’s a story of before. It was a formal sector, such as it is today. It still was a movement. It was, it was a things that people were doing and it ricocheted off of Reacted to, but also impacted events for over 200 years.

[00:04:35.94] spk_0:
You’re clear to point out that it’s not a history of nonprofits. It’s how the nonprofit sector evolved because of discrete events in

[00:04:54.44] spk_1:
history. Well, that’s why it’s called an overview. In other words, I didn’t start out with day one and try to give chronologically month by month, year by year. Whatever what I did was I looked at what I thought were the most impactful things that happened during or to the history of the sector. And those are the things I wrote about

[00:04:58.44] spk_0:
now. Um, I’m not sure we’re going to go strictly chronological. We

[00:05:01.62] spk_1:
made the book isn’t actually strictly chronological. They’re places where I had to double

[00:05:07.24] spk_0:
back. Um, now, when you were on last time we talked about Queen

[00:05:09.65] spk_1:
Elizabeth, important Elizabeth at first, but I know martin

[00:05:11.92] spk_0:
Luther uh, piques your

[00:05:13.96] spk_1:
interest. I thought

[00:05:15.30] spk_0:
pre he’s pre

[00:05:57.04] spk_1:
by about 60. His shame by about 16 years. I particularly thought it was interesting because if you look at the sector today is largely secular humanist. Um, not that there aren’t religious or religiously affiliated organizations in it, but it is not a religious sector. I mean, generally speaking, not that there aren’t religious organizations and affiliations, but it is a very humanistic secular in some cases, you might say liberal, I don’t know, uh movement and yet its roots were distinctly religious. So how did that break happen? Why did that break happened? Where did and personally, I traced it back to martin Luther and the reformation.

[00:06:00.94] spk_0:
So, you are. Well,

[00:07:07.54] spk_1:
because up until then, I mean, again, and this is not to be uh focused on just one, you know, ethnicity or religious tradition. This is certainly not to leave anybody else out. But the truth of the matter is that europe was catholic ever since, you know, Constantine made it the Catholicism Christianity, the official uh Religion of the Empire in 3 30, 80 europe was catholic. And then comes along martin Luther and he initiates along with a few other people with the reformation. And his biggest point was that unlike where the catholic church said it was faith and good works that got you into heaven, martin Luther with Sola fida faith alone and split them and he said you can do all the good works you want, they’re not going to get you into heaven. Faith is and he divided it at that point and that crack, that infant Ismael airline crack got wider and wider and wider and wider. People began to realize over time maybe they never even articulated it. It became a sense that there were certain things you do because they’re right, not because it’s an extra two points to get into heaven. This tradition had not existed there to four and that’s why I peg one of the 1st, 1st steps towards what we have today and particularly the United States with martin Luther

[00:07:15.18] spk_0:
now, uh huh and then Queen Elizabeth.

[00:07:17.86] spk_1:
Queen Elizabeth

[00:07:36.94] spk_0:
Was important. Yes. Now if listeners want to go back, you can go back to the June 2016 show, we talked for about a half an hour. Not all about Queen Elizabeth, but we talked a fair amount about her more than we’re going through today, but you could go to 20 martignetti dot com search bob’s last name pena P E N N A. And the june 2016 show last time he was on uh well well appear to

[00:08:23.84] spk_1:
You. Okay, please very quickly. Um Queen Elizabeth. We got time. Okay, Queen Elizabeth in 1601 uh issued something that was called a statute of charitable uses. And what she did was um and that’s not to say this had never happened before, but she codified with the idea that things that were of civic and civil benefit could be appropriate targets of charitable givings. What’s things founding of funding of schools, the funding of scholars, the building of bridges, the building of causeways, the ransoming of prisoners. All of these things were in this list. So what was she doing there? She was a further secularizing charity, but be she was putting into the charitable pot things that they’re 24 had not been considered charity charity, but charity was always personal to help poor. Now she’s moving far away from help the poor bridges, Bridges causes

[00:08:37.51] spk_0:
and ransoming

[00:09:02.24] spk_1:
hostages or also uh putting together a sort of a charitable pot for the dowry for poor maidens. Okay. Um there was things that today you might call you the social engineering or what what not. But the point is it was no longer the idea that charity always was always had to be about helping the poor. So first martin Luther breaks off the idea of These good deeds, having nothing to do with getting you into heaven. And then she comes along 60 years later and says on top of that charitable activity, things that are good for the community and not necessarily what was thought of his personal charity, putting the coin in the Beggar’s hand.

[00:09:19.44] spk_0:
Beyond martin Luther uh religion, the evolution

[00:09:23.28] spk_1:
of religion. I think it has been important, tremendous particularly the United States. We’re

[00:09:27.34] spk_0:
probably going to hit religion a bunch of times but give us an overview of why, why you say tremendous,

[00:10:44.44] spk_1:
Well I would say two reasons. First off because of the impact of the puritans. Um if you wouldn’t mind me mentioning another author, Colin Woodward’s book, american Nations, he makes what’s his name, Colin Woodard? American nations. He’s in your forward or your introductions in the introduction and he makes the point that they were founding cultures here in the United States and one of these founding cultures he calls yankee dumb basically the puritan culture. And uh the thing of it is that that had a tremendous impact because their worldview, they were the only ones coming here amongst the settlers, amongst the french, the spanish the Swedes, Everyone else who came here who came with this idea of creating a better society. We’ve all heard that term, the city on the hill, john Winthrop in their Mayflower compact was writing this down and was saying that amongst the things we’re going to do is every person has to be responsible for every other person built into the D. N. A. Of that colony. And what it became eventually in terms of one of the privacy dominant cultures in the United States was this concept that we have a responsibility, a civic civil human responsibility for helping each other. We’re going to come back

[00:10:47.14] spk_0:
to Winthrop, one of the new England puritans.

[00:11:53.74] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. The relationships. They have the relationships with the well known outlets nationwide to get you attention to get you coverage when you deserve to be heard when you need to be heard when there’s something in the news that you can comment on and that you want to be heard on. Or maybe it’s not something news like news hook like but maybe it’s a simple op ed or blog post or getting to podcasts. Turn to has the relationships. So if it’s cutting edge like timeliness or it’s more evergreen. They have the relationships to get you covered to get you heard because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to how we got here.

[00:12:08.84] spk_0:
So let’s jump ahead. We might come back. Like I said, we may not chronological, but you mentioned Winthrop New England puritan. The new England puritans were different than in terms of their their uh concept of charity. Then the southern,

[00:13:23.54] spk_1:
it was also a pioneer was also what it had a lot to do with was the way they set their society up. If you think of the south. Um the first off there was the tidewater south, the Maryland Virginia. Uh northern north Carolina. That was one society. But then there was what we came to know for better, ill as the south. Eventually the confederacy, etcetera that all started in south Carolina. It was a plantation. Both of these were actually plantation societies and these plantations were largely self sufficient. So amongst the things they didn’t do, they didn’t worry about having a public school because the rich took care of their own Children. They had tutors or perhaps they sent the Children away someplace. But they didn’t worry about public schools didn’t matter. And the poor didn’t need education, neither white nor black. It didn’t matter. So all of the things that we take now as thinking of their earmarks of society, their earmarks of civilization, They didn’t exist down there. Conversely, the first things you did in New England was you, where’s the village green? The church is going to be at one end congregationalist of course. Uh, the school is going to be at the other end. Everybody supported it through their taxes. So right there you had a division. This then later was reflected in terms of things like the pieces of civil society that you and I would consider to be a charitable efforts. They didn’t exist in the south

[00:13:34.44] spk_0:
since religion is a

[00:13:35.52] spk_1:
threat that it’s

[00:13:36.80] spk_0:
very important. The congregationalists in that time. They were, they were the statement that the state religion

[00:13:43.38] spk_1:
in massachusetts.

[00:13:44.46] spk_0:
Oh, just in massachusetts

[00:13:51.84] spk_1:
in massachusetts, Rhode island Connecticut there as you went for the south. It became the anglicans. In fact, the anglicans were a minority in massachusetts. And what became of, you don’t, you don’t see a pilgrim church or puritan church anymore. They became the congregationalists

[00:14:03.14] spk_0:
which were supported by uh taxes, taxes,

[00:14:05.99] spk_1:
taxes, they all work. So,

[00:14:07.16] spk_0:
I mean, a complete, uh, you know, this is obviously uh all pre revolution, pre pre constitution, but in that, in that day we had state religions.

[00:14:16.44] spk_1:
Yes, yes,

[00:14:17.12] spk_0:
in every every colony, some of the Northern state, every

[00:15:14.14] spk_1:
colony, okay, could not, you know, including eventually, you know, as things got more settled down south. The Anglicans, the angle of the Church of England was the state church. So, for example, in Virginia had to de institutionalized the anglican church. So taxes wouldn’t go to it anymore. But it did have this thread, tony of uh of how religion impacted it. It goes through this whole story because when the minister is no longer were part of the government, so to speak, they had to find a new role. You had other sects that came along after the second great awakening amongst them, the Baptists. Methodists, they were incredibly influential because they had they didn’t have all the formal theology that others had. It was, that’s why you would hear a baptist preacher referred to as brother Parsons or something, because they weren’t ordained ministers in many cases and because of that lack of formality, number one. um they could, they didn’t church necessarily, they could preach under a tree, but secondly, they also had a much more accessible kind of idea uh the way they approached it and a lot of what we see today came from specifically the baptist evangelicals and the Methodists like

[00:15:31.34] spk_0:
what about some of these traditions as well?

[00:15:38.24] spk_1:
For example, the 1st 1st nationwide survived the first nationwide uh charities you want to call were bible and tract associations and they were all run by, funded by and pushed by these southern uh evangelicals, Methodists and Baptists and that became like the first nationwide charities. Uh, the precursors of all the big ones, you know, today, they were the first ones who were like coast to coast.

[00:15:57.84] spk_0:
What else is there? Another tradition that you can,

[00:16:46.14] spk_1:
you can, I think, I think another tradition I would connect is uh the activism of many, many groups. So for example, going back to the abolition of slavery, which of course started of all places in boston, boston was the home of the abolitionist movement and a lot of the people up there were religiously affiliated. But it is also true that during Reconstruction and wanted a lot of the quote charitable work that was done down there amongst the Freeman, amongst the freed slaves, etcetera, was done by northern Methodists and northern Baptists. So this threat, this involvement, but they weren’t doing it necessarily for the, for the same reasons that going back to, you know, the 14 hundreds, the catholic slash christians were giving money to the poor that was trying to buy their way into heaven. Slowly, completely different. This

[00:16:50.36] spk_0:
was this was a contribution to society. Exactly.

[00:16:59.84] spk_1:
It was, it was like a centering the nation beyond was a secular act being done by people who who belonged to uh a particular denomination in this case. It’s interesting to see the the degree of do get think back, you know, go back to the anti war movement during the sixties, how many of those people marching? They were protestant ministers, many of them, many of them were Methodists and Baptists. This strain never went away.

[00:17:30.94] spk_0:
What was, I’m jumping way ahead now, we’ll come back to the constitution and uh separation of church and state, but um ancient greek uh Greece Rome, Egypt. What was, what was the conception

[00:17:34.92] spk_1:
of charity then? Well, Egypt does

[00:17:37.14] spk_0:
vary by empire

[00:18:06.24] spk_1:
generally speaking. I mean, even in Egypt, there are, there are higher, horrible effects have been found and have been translated that roughly say that, you know, your place in the afterlife, depending upon how you treated people in this life. So you might say there was that kind of strain of charity in Greece and Rome charity was much more uh what um Queen Elizabeth did. In other words, the idea was particularly in Rome if you want to get ahead and you wanted to be noticed. So let’s say you were in the army and you want to move into politics, you were high up in the army, you would spend stuff, you would spend money on things that the public could enjoy. Like you would build a public bath or perhaps you would pay for a temple to Athena or some small thing of this nature. But the idea was the charity in those days, did the poor didn’t count the poor didn’t exist on anybody’s radar screen. You have a totally different perspective of human nature, human value. And it was for

[00:18:29.70] spk_0:
your own it was very good

[00:18:32.94] spk_1:
for your own good. Every wrong career, right, career development, career development. But the whole idea of what you

[00:18:38.54] spk_0:
Just can spend $400 to go to a conference. Uh, then I would have had to build a temple to Athena

[00:18:41.11] spk_1:
or you could today you could make a big donation to the hospital and I put a plaque on the wall with your name. This is tony-martignetti wink. I’d rather build a temple. But

[00:18:59.64] spk_0:
um, okay, that’s interesting. All right, thank you. So, so let’s go. All right. So now we have uh, our constitution, our bill of Rights, the First Amendment, um, obviously religion, no, no state religion and and separation of church and state. So how did these factor into

[00:20:39.54] spk_1:
these? Factored industry in three different ways. Number one, part of those, The First Amendment is the right of assembly, um, which the british kept an eye on when they, when they were in charge. Well now you could formally have, you could have group meetings, you could organize, you need to worry about perhaps the king’s soldiers would come and say break this up while you six people gathering here. One of the things that people did was they formed organizations de Toqueville Uh wrote back in 1830 something when he wrote his famous uh his famous review of of America based upon his tour that Americans were already organizing for virtually everything you name, the thought, music, culture, politics, something that they thought would be americans were organizing. He has, he has a comment that says, Uh where in England you will find a personal great wealth or prominence heading up an effort or where in France you will find the government doing that in America. You virtually always find it being done by a citizens organization interesting. So this has been a toqueville was here in like the early 21st, 20 years or so of American independence. I mean, I believe he wrote democracy in America somewhere around 1834. Um, and these are already his reflections by 1820, the New England area already had over 2000 of these citizen voluntary organizations. They were the precursors of today’s nonprofits. Yeah.

[00:20:40.54] spk_0:
And how are they structured? What do we know about their, their

[00:21:00.84] spk_1:
organs were structured like they were structured sort of, as you know, an association, they had by laws, they had officers, what they didn’t have was either illegal corporate identity, nor did they have uh any sort of fiscal power. Because the laws that created what we call today, a corporation? Yeah. Didn’t exist back then.

[00:21:06.64] spk_0:
All right, so we’re in the like early to mid 1800s. Are they are they doing their own independent fundraising?

[00:24:28.64] spk_1:
Yes, they were. Well, they were doing yes, they were doing when we would they called us? They would call it a subscription. They would call it a subscription. They put out a subscription player, subscription request, and it was today’s fundraising, but they called it a subscription. But the key things in those days were threefold. Number one. Uh they weren’t incorporated, so they didn’t have a legal standing identity, such as people don’t like about Citizens United. That whole idea that it didn’t exist, secondly, they did not have any uh separate fiscal ability to buy to sell to. They didn’t. And the third thing was that the officers or whoever was there, the officers were the identity. So if mrs smith or jones quit and or died very often the operation would fall apart because there’s no way to keep it going. It was very, very crucial for them to eventually get this right to uh to uh incorporate. And one of the most key points about this was that they eventually incorporated under the state laws, the laws of their home states. Now, who then control them? Did the state legislature because it charted them or allow them to incorporate control them or were they independent? And there was a crucial um, a crucial court case involving Dartmouth University whereby the courts found that even if public money went to these entities and even if in fact these public entities, these entities were incorporated under state law. Legislature couldn’t touch them. The Legislature could not give the money, but the Legislature could not tell them in this case. Specifically Dartmouth University what to do That. Independence was crucial because it allowed these organizations to in many, many, many cases proceed government in various efforts. Whether it was schools for the Children of freed former slaves, Whether it was schools for uh, today you called handicapped the death the blind. Uh They would very often create certain they would call them asylums. Today, you might call them orphanages for Children. There was one in new york city that was specifically for the, shall we say, uh Children of prostitutes who might have been called bastards back then or might be called illegitimate. Nobody. Where did these kids go? What did you do with them? And there were, there was a privately funded asylum was created just for those people. Just those Children for the poor as well. Very old houses. Well, arms houses. They, yes, very, very largely funded by these private entities. But very often, particularly in new york city new york city under Mayor de witt clinton high School in Brooklyn and the Bronx. Yes, right. He, he became, he was governor at one point. Um, he was not only when he was mayor, he was also head of one of the largest charitable efforts in the, in the city and was even back then. We’re talking early immigrants around, I’m guessing here trying to remember 18 20 something like that. I don’t remember the executives of his, uh, his term of office, but the city was already paying well. Today you would call a nonprofit to run the, run the schools for the poor. So in new york state, particularly this tradition of public money going to a not what we today would call a nonprofit to provide a Legislatively desirable and socially desirable end. Think about it Tony, this is 2018, you’re almost 200 years later, we’re still doing the same thing. Yeah,

[00:24:47.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I love that around this period. Let’s take mid 1800s. So what, what’s happening in the, in the rest of the country? Well,

[00:26:13.94] spk_1:
the slavery slavery about it? Well, slavery and civil war are percolating and a tremendous number of, of um Efforts, private government effort, rather private citizen efforts, uh, were trying to have the slave trade stopped because the constitution originally said that the government could not do anything even in the slave trade, not slavery, but the trade for 20 years. So this effort was going on for a long time and it was all being done by, by citizens in 99% of them up north. Um, a lot of them either spurred by or uh inspired by the culture of Yankee dim which was spreading across the country at that point. I mean think about it through from the mohawk valley to the Ohio valley, we spread from east to west and this culture came with us. And uh, the number of people who felt that this was a scar on our national character uh, increased and um, I mean, you’ve heard, you know the Missouri compromise, bleeding Kansas, we all know what all the things that led up to the civil war, but what was while that was going on, there was this tremendous effort to, among other things, abolished slavery, but at the same time penal reform, um, reform to end uh, what’s the biggest show in new york Hamilton? Right, Hamilton and burr dueling outlaw dueling. Um, all season. These

[00:26:17.06] spk_0:
are, these are efforts by the, by their non profit or

[00:26:21.37] spk_1:
These organs by these organizations. Okay, now the term non profit didn’t come along until 1950. Yeah, we’re

[00:26:26.62] spk_0:
gonna get the right, we’ll get to the tax exemption. Okay, but by the penal reform, what else, what else can you think of other examples what they were doing around this time. It was very,

[00:27:10.64] spk_1:
very interesting amongst these subscriptions today. You know, there there’s everybody is familiar with the term five oh one C three. Well the three denotes one level of five oh one C. There are actually 29 of them. Well, one of them. One of the earliest was what was called mutual society sort of mutual aid or mutual. Today there are mutual insurance companies which are non profit They started back then. The idea is you would again have a subscription and if a fire hit your house, this would pay money to you to get you back on your feet. This was another my nonprofit effort that didn’t exist. Benjamin for

[00:27:11.57] spk_0:
every year where I guess I remember Benjamin franklin, but every year I get my subscribers check from us, a right, a mutual mutual benefit uh insurance insurance company and now and bank. Ben

[00:27:53.04] spk_1:
Franklin. Ben franklin uh, is credited with founding amongst the first uh, non profit things in the United States. The Volunteer Fire corps in philadelphia, one of the first libraries, uh, the Juno Society. These were all today you’d call them nonprofit effort efforts uh, that he founded uh, in philadelphia before the revolution. So again, this was, but interestingly enough, not down south. Yeah, not down south. Once you started to get towards around the north Carolina border, you didn’t see it because of the plantation economy because of the culture. They didn’t

[00:27:56.42] spk_0:
have a civic, there wasn’t a civic, the civic sense. We have community sense. There was this my plantation, right? We take care of everything

[00:28:15.54] spk_1:
here. This is why two of the most revolutionary things that happened down there was thomas. Jefferson’s founding of the University of Virginia North Carolina’s founding one of the first state universities in the country because that was unheard of down there. It was just unheard of. So all of these efforts, as I say, we’re primarily northern.

[00:28:22.74] spk_0:
We have about a minute before the break. Um, the tax exemption, I feel like this is a good time. When did that, when did that?

[00:28:26.45] spk_1:
Uh taxes first? Tax exemption started way way way back because you have to ask about which taxes. So it’s probably gonna be more than it wasn’t

[00:28:33.99] spk_0:
religion. Okay. Wasn’t religion the religion

[00:28:39.54] spk_1:
1st Exemption. Religion and can also speak schools and things and things of that nature. So go back to that. Alright.

[00:28:45.74] spk_0:
It broadened but it started with, okay, so we teased it together

[00:28:46.94] spk_1:
and you always do,

[00:28:48.28] spk_0:
thank you very much. Always tease.

[00:31:12.84] spk_2:
It’s time for Tony’s take two truly sharing is caring who can you share. non profit radio with. I’ve been providing suggestions through the weeks. How about the new folks to nonprofits, the newbies there? Like babes in the woods, they’re, they’re jumping to, to avoid the obstacles there. Following the immediate direction. They’re just trying to get from like tree to tree to move forward. The trees are the, the metaphorical trees are the tasks that they’re given either by your office or somebody, you know who they work for, but they don’t see the big forest, they don’t, they can’t take the higher level view. They don’t know where they fit in overall. They’re just produce these labels. Let’s get this mailing uh, do this, query uh, volunteered to do this. Volunteer activity beep boop. But what’s the bigger picture? It will be elucidated, they will get illuminated, they will find their way through the from tree to tree because they’ll see the entire forest through nonprofit. radio There’s the, there’s the, I don’t know what this but the new folks, the new folks, they need some help. Right? Really? How do they fit in their, their, the, the development assistance, the Development associates. Maybe you were there have have empathy for them or maybe you weren’t, maybe you got right in at the director level or the, the Associate VP level or the VP level or have empathy for them. Anyway, non profit radio can help the new movies because we’ve got to bring them along. Right. We’ve had guests talk about this, we all know this, we have to bring them along, get them started on the right path through the forest. non profit radio if you can share. non profit radio with somebody new to nonprofits, it’s going to help them and it will help me. And I say thank you That is Tony’s take two. Now back to how we got here,

[00:31:49.24] spk_0:
bob pen is with me. His new book is braided threads, a historical overview of the american nonprofit sector, just get the book because you know, we can’t do it. Justice. Of course you’re interested in how are sector, our community evolved to what it is now. Um get the book. You know, we’re hitting some threads, some braided threads if you will. But you want the full story. You know, even, you know, bob mentioned something. I was like, oh yeah, the Dartmouth case, you know, I can’t remember at all. Um, just by the thing for Pete’s sake. All right. Um, where were we see now? I’ve ranted about bees and sunshine and all this live love. Where were we?

[00:32:06.24] spk_1:
Well, you well, you also screwed up the whole thing about baseball, but that’s another thing. Well, you have baseball doesn’t have touchdowns. But anyway, that’s different. We’re talking about, we’re talking about taxes and tax exemption and that’s what you would ask about.

[00:32:08.82] spk_0:
Thank you. So, it started religion was the first one. What period are we talking about now? We’re

[00:33:24.74] spk_1:
Going back to probably the 1600s. And that’s the point of the matter is we ask what taxes. Alright, Alright. Federal government levied very very few taxes before that. The state’s levied. Not that many taxes? Most taxes were on property and very early on churches were exempted from paying those taxes. Uh Now it wasn’t just the church building, it also became the the parsonage where the minister lived. Uh then if there was another building library perhaps, then schools obviously we’re not text, be they private or be they public. Clearly, a public government is going to tax itself. So public institutions like a public school would never we’re never uh text, but the idea was that the exemption list grew bigger and bigger. New york state was obviously this was going on in all states. I happened to have a quite an extensive accounting in the book of how the new york state list just kept getting broader and broader and broader and broader. Uh At one point, it was interesting because the law was changed to allow organizations that included in their charter or their mission, the uh the enhancement of the minds of young people or something. That’s how the why got in because the why had tried to get a tax exemption had gone to court. They’ve been turned down, they had to pay the tax bill. But everybody thought gee the why should be in in this. So why is very

[00:33:42.12] spk_0:
interesting to uh in the world

[00:33:43.92] spk_1:
wars? Yeah, well, that’s right in the book, right, that they were also involved. Yeah, this is the book. I know, yeah. But what I’m saying is that the why was not really was was not mentioned organizations like why now you mention New

[00:34:01.84] spk_0:
york State. Yes. Um I love this. Uh one thing I want to read this from 17 99 uh New york state. You you cite new york state has sort of Representative

[00:34:06.11] spk_1:
represent what was happening around there were very issues but it’s very representative. This

[00:34:33.84] spk_0:
Is an act for the assessment and collection of taxes. New York State 1799 Excerpt. I won’t read the whole thing. Of course, no house or land belonging to any church or place of public worship or any personal property belonging to any ordained Minister of the Gospel, nor any college or incorporated academy nor any schoolhouse, courthouse, jail, arms house or property belonging to any incorporated library shall be taxed by virtue of

[00:36:29.73] spk_1:
This act. Right. And that that list just kept going and as I said at one they amended it to include, and I forget the specific wording was something about the betterment of the minds of young men and women because there was the Y. M. C. A. And the Y. W. C. Young young men and young women’s christian association so that the law was changed and basically what the courts said was that these operations were doing good. They were doing good things and were beneficial to society and therefore society. Uh It was in society’s interest, but also as just a smart thing to do. We are going to do our bit by supporting them to the extent that we do so by alleviating them from the tax burden. They were still not called non profits because that concept him way later. Um But these organizations, these voluntary and for a long time it was called the voluntary sector. Uh, these are, yes, that was the name of uh, these organizations increasingly became uh tax free, what we know today as the people call them non profits. I’ll do this relatively quickly. Um, one of the last revenue acts of the 1800s uh included this idea that these kinds of organizations could be, should be exempted from federal taxes. That particular revenue act was found unconstitutional. However, when things started to fall into place and you remember, it was the 16th amendment that made the income tax legal in the United States. When that happened, the recognition that these organizations should be exempt was codified and it had to be three things. Number one, it had to be incorporated as a non profit. What does that mean? Does it mean they can’t make profit They can’t make money. Know what it means. Is that what any excess extra? It has to go back in? Well, it has to go back in. They cannot.

[00:36:31.43] spk_0:
This was contemporaneous with the 16th Amendment

[00:37:26.33] spk_1:
was well, shortly following that. But what does the nonprofit means? That rather mean? Doesn’t mean it can’t make money? No, that doesn’t, that’s not what it means, what it means. It can’t take that profit and distributed to partners distributed to stockholders distribute. It has to go back into the pot. That’s number one. The second thing is that no, none of its activities can make money for any of the officers. Right? And the third of the third idea uh is that the, well the roles and the idea is a nonprofit non distribute orI and doing some sort of civic good and so very often it was charitable and there was a charitable educational and the list got you know bigger now family really machinery. I like that word to me sir. That’s what they believe, believe that is maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right. I remember I come from the Bronx so I’m different pronunciation. Um

[00:37:35.13] spk_0:
well you were wrong about you around baseball

[00:38:21.32] spk_1:
Too. So our president tax liabilities president tax code comes from 1954. That was the first place where they laid out what we have today, this 501C category. And where the general exemption from. Originally the idea was that if these organizations made money they didn’t have to pay a corporate income tax on it. Then it became not legally but in terms of practice that they are basically free from almost all taxes other than things like excise taxes are taxes on gasoline or something that you pay as part of a bill, which is why the local men’s association will go to a restaurant and they’ll have the banquet and they give the the the owner, here’s my tax free by tax free number and they won’t have to pay sales tax on the restaurant. Yeah. Okay. So that’s where all that came from. But it was in terms of its codification. Although the roots go back to the 1600s codification goes back to 1954.

[00:38:31.12] spk_0:
Okay. Is that the 16th amendment? Was that

[00:38:33.10] spk_1:
The 16th Amendment was 1913? That’s what allowed the income permitted

[00:38:44.42] spk_0:
an income federal income tax. Okay, Okay. Um let’s uh were World War One. We saw an expansion. Uh

[00:38:46.74] spk_1:
yes, Yes.

[00:38:49.32] spk_0:
Why?

[00:39:20.72] spk_1:
Why? Because really? Well, because there was no functional way for the government to step in. One of the more fascinating things about it, was that the you meant we were talking about the why the why was the first organization to do what today? You think in terms like the Red Cross, you know, POW POW camps, uh, you’re checking on status bringing, you know, prisoners. Nobody did that government. Sure as heck did neither the union or the confederate government. It was the why the YMCA that first started this bringing this service to both sides to the confederates and northern. So they were they were in uh in confederate POW camps, ministering, so to speak to union prisoners and vice versa. You

[00:39:31.28] spk_0:
say that the White was the first large scale service

[00:39:41.52] spk_1:
corps, really, you could say that you can’t say that the other. So comes along World War One. Um there was a need for this, but nobody else to do it.

[00:40:33.81] spk_2:
It’s time for a break send in blue, It’s the all in one digital marketing platform with the tools that help you build end to end digital campaigns that are professional, affordable, organized and keep you organized digital campaign marketing. Most software designed for big companies, you know this and has the enterprise level price tag, send in blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a digital campaign. If you want to try it out and get a free month and a 300,000 emails hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for how we got here.

[00:40:37.01] spk_0:
Why the why it was the Y. M. C. A. Initially or was it why it was there? Why?

[00:40:41.96] spk_1:
No. Well there’s two Y. M. C. A young men’s christian association and the young women’s, which came first who I am.

[00:40:49.13] spk_0:
Okay, so first large scale service corps. And

[00:43:29.00] spk_1:
well what happened was this, in other words, when World War One started? And uh, there was a need, when the americans got involved, when there was a need uh, to again uh brain services to this army that was being raised, whether it was, you know, outside of Fort Dix or whether it was, you know, eventually when the A. F. Got across the to the other side across the pond, expeditionary forces, right? American expeditionary force? Uh, the whole idea was somebody had to do the same sort of thing. And why was the first one to step in the Red Cross eventually joined the Salvation Army eventually joined. But all of this was being done privately. Meantime, both prior to America’s entry into the war and after it was a tremendous amount of uh refugee, if you will victims victims relief. I mean, you know, war is terrible whatever word is and there’s always collateral damage. The people who were displaced the homes that are destroyed. Well during war governments don’t stop to worry about taking care of that. They move on, they want to have a war to try to win. So who took care of those people? The refugee problem was tremendous. Belgium became one of the worst sites of it because when the Germans invaded Belgium, the al I said well you have to feed the Belgians because most of the belgians of food came from outside, German said no we’re not gonna be bothered doing that. We’re feeding our troops. You want to give them food, you give them food. Well, it was a relief effort that began in the United States that started working to bring food to Belgium. But it was not government, it was all private. It was all voluntary. It was all what you today would call non profit before our and there’s actually pictures, one of the few pictures that are in the book before the war, before the U. S. Got involved in the war when we were supposed to be officially neutral. Yes, there were organizations raising money for the poor and the suffering and the widows in Belgium and France. And but they were also organizations doing the same thing directing money to the german empire. The Austria Hungarian Empire in Turkey because we were officially neutral. So there are actually a couple of pictures in the book. I would appreciate it more pictures by the way I like, well I’m sorry, next next book of more pictures. But the whole idea was this entire effort was being done privately after the war, massive relief effort run by Herbert Hoover most of it. Not all of it at that point the U. S. Government was committing money but A great deal of it. You know, I don’t know proportion 60% maybe uh was all private.

[00:43:30.25] spk_0:
Today’s USO was formed by a collection of a bunch of the collaboration of a bunch of the organizations. You mentioned the Y. M. Y. W. C. A. Regular.

[00:43:38.50] spk_1:
Uh,

[00:43:40.28] spk_0:
that’s today’s United Service

[00:45:29.09] spk_1:
organization. Right? And that’s where that’s where it was a coalition that was found was one of the first ever like that. One of the first ever efforts. I mean there are all sorts of things that happened back then that we we today for example, you’ve heard of United Way. Everybody knows United Way. You know where United what came from? I dont Community Chest Community Chest and you know today, most people in the Community chest is a sort of a space in the car. I’m a reporter. Okay. Community chest was local fundraising specifically for disaster, personal tragedy, private relief. So if you lost your job or the factory burned down and five people lost their job. Community chest was, was, was the entity in each individual community that would they would go to for relief. I mean, maybe if they belong to a particular denomination and the church might help them out or as well or you know, temple or you know, there’s a lot of that, I mean both and there’s a whole section in there on both the jewish and catholic specific uh, contributions to what we know today as the american nonprofit sector. That, that’s interesting reading on, on its own, but this isn’t to say the churches were involved, but every community, there was no public relief, there was no public welfare and so if dad died or fell off the roof and broke his leg and couldn’t work, there was no unemployment insurance, there was no workers comp people very often they went to Community Chest. What wound up happening was, uh, one of the transformative events was what we might call a cooperative fundraising. If everybody fun fund rose for fundraising, fundraising, whatever the the past tense that is by themselves, you want with competing appeals and they’re banging into each other. Well, uh, it actually started to believe it was in Cleveland was one of the first ones. Uh, I know there was one in Denver, there was one in uh, in uh Detroit, There was one, I believe it was Cleveland. Was

[00:45:48.69] spk_0:
this around the, was this also the hoover administration were now profit complained were basically testified before Congress were basically running over each other, stepping over each other, trying to, trying to help. Oh yeah. Also also was that the Great Depression or

[00:46:34.48] spk_1:
no? Yes, yes and no. You know, there was what you’re talking about was World War Two, uh, stepping on each other and tripling over. That was World War Two. No, what happened was when the, when the Depression hit, um, sort of the thought was that, uh, this community chest would step up and community chest tried, they would have instead of one annual drive, they were having to annual drives. They tried three. But the problem, as we all know, was much bigger than anybody could have predicted foreseen. And their efforts were just not up to the fact that the entire economy crashed, which is why government had to get in that. It was obviously FDR FDR appointed Harry Hopkins to run the relief effort. Harry Hopkins thought that it really should be local government that was doing this. Local governments sitting off on the side. They’re very happy not to be involved. So what Harry Hopkins did was, he said, okay, we’re gonna do this and it’s going to be federal money, but none of the money can go to what today would call non profits because they got completely cut out.

[00:46:52.78] spk_0:
That was not, that was not to punish phenomenon that was to encourage, that was to

[00:46:57.73] spk_1:
force the states unwilling

[00:46:59.40] spk_0:
states and states that had not taken on public welfare right to do it. Or we’re doing give the money to the state. But we, the federal money won’t go to these community chest. Exactly right. They’re trying to force the hand unwilling recalcitrant

[00:48:06.37] spk_1:
states and localities and localities. But, but yes, that’s and that was Hopkins idea of course. Now what did the nonprofits do? I mean this kind of left them out in the cold. Now, you also have to realize that at this point we were talking about community chest, but this was one, this is not to say that the arts efforts weren’t going on and people weren’t founding zoos and botanical gardens. And a lot of this was originally founded by private garden clubs or a zoological society. But the nation was in crisis and relief was always from the charitable sector, which is why it was called the show. And now they couldn’t do it anymore because it was too big a job and be the federal money couldn’t go to them had, you know, Harry Hopkins said no. So they, we invent themselves. I mean, I said the US made early on what was the theme I keep saying resiliency. And one of the things that one of the earliest tests of this resiliency was after the depression because basically the Fed said you can’t have anybody, you know, more money for you. So,

[00:48:15.77] spk_0:
um, say a little about the, uh, the jewish contribution to what we

[00:49:54.47] spk_1:
Know. I think this is utterly fascinating. There’s a book, believe it guys named wrote it was cale calendar. I don’t know how Taylor County, it’s called the gifts of the Jews. The gift of the Jews book is probably 20 years old at this point. But he makes the point that one of the biggest contributions that the jewish culture, the jewish religion made to us here in the United States was in fact cultural, cultural. It had to do with how human beings were viewed when the jewish immigration here started in large. Think about where these people come from, they were either, you know, they were persecuted in czarist Russia. They were persecuted in Poland, which was part of czarist Russia. They were kicked out of spain. I mean, you know, 1000 years of this, they had an outsider perspective, nobody else had and they brought that here with them and when they got involved in charity and what they were the ones they, they were the biggest analyze of the black civil rights movement because their idea that nobody should be an outsider was central to them. And they brought that to that. You think about today’s nonprofit space, We are concerned about the handicapped were concerned about all sorts of groups that you might call marginalized with semi marginalized and this was antithetical to the jewish world view. So to me, whereas a lot of these other charities were taking care of their own. So for example, there was the irish working in such and such, but you have to be irish. The jews said no inclusive, inclusive.

[00:49:56.57] spk_0:
Excellent. Thank you. The jewish

[00:50:27.16] spk_1:
tradition. I just, I cannot emphasize that enough because I mean truly today, if you look at at the, the whole core of the nonprofit mission, it is inclusivity and I personally feel that without the incredible jewish influence that particularly here in new york and new york became kind of like one of those centers of the nonprofit world. It still is. I cannot emphasize enough how strongly I believe that that, that world view, yeah, that threat, um, truly truly help the imprint. Uh, what we have today.

[00:50:33.96] spk_0:
You got to get the book because there’s some things were not going to be a great depression. Uh, Kennedy’s new frontier. And then uh, johnson, johnson and johnson’s war against four. War on poverty.

[00:50:46.44] spk_1:
We have about 3, 4 minutes. Uh,

[00:50:48.70] spk_0:
five. I want to talk about the future too.

[00:51:41.86] spk_1:
Okay. But then I’ll do very quick. Let me just do johnson All right, johnson set us on the road that we’re on the war on poverty, Right. War right. Great society, war on poverty. We are today farther down that road and that road is being fancied up there are, you know, there are curbs where maybe they didn’t used to be curbs, there’s a newer pavement, nicer pavement and original, but it’s the exact same road. What johnson did was, he said, we’re going to take federal money and we’re going to change poverty, We’re going to eradicate whatever his goal was. But it wound up that it wasn’t the government that was doing it. It was government money going to community action agencies and To nonprofits. Now we don’t time now to go to talk about what happened to non profits during the 50s between World War II and we, you know, to get the book, just get the book as well. I have the book. Oh, you mean that they should be talking to

[00:51:42.99] spk_0:
The 13,013,000 who are joining this

[00:52:29.55] spk_1:
condition, They should get, I should hope to God you have a copy of that, That’s a different story. But the whole point was that it was hard to get for me to get one LBJ LBJ set us on the road that we’re on. We’re on now. And my feet feeling and maybe there are people in the sector would argue, uh, you know, this is my theory is that basically things have not really changed in direction, They’ve changed in degree. Now, the nonprofit sector is not just the partner of government, there’s, it’s dependent upon the government. I mean, look what happened to the sector, during the depression. It wasn’t that individuals stopped giving individuals, even during the worst of the great recession, we’re giving corporate was down. The corporate is not that big. It was government money. The sector today is very, very reliant on. So again, johnson set us on the road that we’re on now and we are just farther down and very much deeper into it.

[00:52:46.75] spk_0:
I want to look, don’t look, don’t look forward. You, you cite generational change and technology change as our biggest, uh, opportunities, opportunities and

[00:53:07.95] spk_1:
challenges. I think, I think two of the two of the three biggest things, because we end the book on what’s happening in the future. That’s the last, the last Third or 25% of the book. I think that the three biggest things that are impacting the sector and sectors largely unaware of it is number one of the growth. We are adding 50,000 a year, Uh, in 1990, there were a couple of 100,000 nonprofits in the United States today. There’s, there’s a startling

[00:53:13.53] spk_0:
Chart in the book, one of the pictures of the picture of

[00:54:35.94] spk_1:
the chart I drew it myself dramatic. Um, now there’s over 1.76 million. Actually, nobody as, as, uh, Lester Solomon, who is one of the stages of the sector says nobody really knows how many there are. And it’s because there’s no registration, there’s reporting a different story. So the growth, this can’t just go on 50,000 new ones a year. Even given 3-4%, you know, uh, dwindling and going away. Talk about technology and technology. Uh, you talked before about making online donations easy. That is changing the paradigm between donors and organizations such as we’ve never seen before. You and I are of an age when we still remember, uh, March of dimes going door to door. All right, That is over the canisters canisters. But think about it now. We are making it so easy for online or text, but we’re also making it very easy to give uninformed donations because it’s impulse. It’s on the second. It’s right there in your finger. The third thing is the generational change. We’re already seeing the statisticians and the demographic demographers already seeing a great, great, great change in terms of values and behavior amongst the millennials and us, but not just us, also the generation right behind us. So these three things churning are Have the power to totally change the nonprofit sector as we know it over the course of the next 15 years. And all I’m saying is we as a sector should be aware of these things and be prepared for what could happen and maybe try to steer the ship instead of just being a cork bobbing along where the tides and the winds take is where they will.

[00:54:54.74] spk_0:
Okay, just get the book for God’s sake bob, penna braided threads, a historical overview of the american nonprofit sector, you’ll find bob and his book at braided threads

[00:55:05.01] spk_1:
dot

[00:55:05.56] spk_0:
com. Thank you very much bob. Thank you.

[00:55:42.34] spk_2:
Next week. Edgar Villanueva returns with a popular archive show de colonizing wealth. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein,

[00:55:50.86] spk_3:
Thank you

[00:55:52.00] spk_2:
for that information scotty

[00:55:53.74] spk_3:
be with

[00:55:54.07] spk_2:
me next week for nonprofit radio

[00:55:55.92] spk_3:
Big non

[00:56:12.84] spk_2:
Profit Ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for November 9, 2020: How To Work In Uncertainty & Low-Cost Fundraising Software

My Guests:

Gail Bower & Karen Eber Davis: How To Work In Uncertainty
A June study of nonprofits has lessons for now and our future. The election may be settled, but there are unknowns afoot: reaction to the election; the pandemic; a divided federal government; federal stimulus; racial reckoning; climate change. The study’s co-authors shepherd us. They’re Gail Bower at Bower & Co. Consulting LLC and Karen Eber Davis at Karen Eber Davis Consulting.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris Bernard & Amadie Hart: Low-Cost Fundraising Software
Chris Bernard and Amadie Hart, the co-authors of Tech Impact’s new software selection guide, talk us through: What these systems offer; how to compare them; and how to select the best one for your needs. Chris is from Tech Impact and Amadie is at Hart Strategic Marketing.

 

 

 

 

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[00:03:18.74] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. By the time you hear this, the election will be settled. It damn well better be. I hope you were okay. Going through it. I was immersed in the horse race and probably too much, which means I still am as I’m recording. But by the time you’re listening, it looks like it’ll be over. I hope we’re both OK. Be sure to take care of yourself, please. And others, I will do the same. Let’s each be understanding of what we and those around us have been through. It’s been a crisis, a trauma, and it’s time to start healing. I know there’s a lot of work and a long journey ahead. No doubt if we each take care of ourselves and have compassion for others, we’ll be starting that journey on the right foot. Let’s get started together. Is non profit radio still your favorite abdominal podcast? I just love that word. Why say weekly? When you can say abdominal, force your friends into the dictionary, I’ll start a campaign to replace the word weekly maybe not. No campaigns for a while. Oh, I’m extra glad you’re with me. I get slapped with a diagnosis of politico phobia. If you lobbied me with the idea of missing today’s show How Toe Work in Uncertainty. A June study of nonprofits has lessons for now and our future. The election may be settled, but there are unknowns afoot. The pandemic reaction to the election, a divided federal government, federal stimulus, racial reckoning, climate change. Need I continue. The study’s co authors shepherd us there, Gail Bauer and Karen Ebert Davis and low cost fundraising software guide Chris Bernard and Amidi Heart. The co authors of Tech Impacts New Software Selection Guide. Talk us through what these systems offer, how to compare them and how to select the best one for your needs. So stop asking, what’s the best system? Although I did Antonis take two. My November webinar were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content For nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives Prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month here is had a work in uncertainty. It’s my pleasure to welcome Gail Bauer and Karen Ebert Davis to non profit radio. They are co authors of the study. What’s Really happening with non profit revenue? They’ll. Bauer is founder and president of Bauer and Co. Consulting LLC, a revenue strategy firm that helps nonprofits become self sufficient by developing reliable sources of revenue. Trained as a futurist, she studies where society is headed and what trends may impact her clients. Businesses Gail is author of the book How to Jump Start Your Sponsorship Strategy. In Tough Times, She’s at gale Bauer dot com and at Gale Bauer. Welcome, girl.

[00:03:47.14] spk_2:
Thank you. Hi, tony. Good

[00:03:48.39] spk_0:
to have you back. Thank you. Karen Ybor Davis and her firm, Karen Bieber, Davis Consulting Guide Organizations To discover propulsion tools to grow their profits and performance. She helps clients create dynamic partnerships and make an extraordinary impact. Her book is Let’s raise non profit Million’s Together. She’s at k e d. Consult dot com Karen, welcome to the show.

[00:04:14.26] spk_1:
Thank you, tony. It’s wonderful to be here.

[00:04:16.34] spk_0:
Pleasure. Pleasure. Have you both? Um, whoever wants to start, I don’t know with, uh, introducing the study and and a little about your timing and methodology. Who’s best?

[00:05:11.64] spk_1:
Karen. Go ahead. Sure about March this year we were looking at concerns and issues in the sector. Gail and I have been working together on different projects serving the sector for two years, and we realized that things were happening so rapidly. We didn’t really have a good handle on it, and we couldn’t go to meetings and meet someone and find out what was going on. So we said, Let’s go ask them questions And so we created this survey really curious about what was happening with individual income streams. There was this blatant, um, pictures of information and that things were just shutting down. All income was off and that yet that’s fine. But what was really happening? And from that, we put the survey out asking about individual income streams and what was happening. And the data was not surprising. About 125 people responded, but was fascinating to us, where the comments people made in the questions that were not multiple choices and that’s where we really have been still mining a lot of interesting things when I looked at it again, fresh, there’s new fresh things to see even though this data was collected in June.

[00:05:41.74] spk_0:
Okay? And Gail So I see. Ah, throughput of this is really the uncertainty that people were facing in. Well, you published in June. So I Karen, you said you were surveying what? I guess March, April May. I’m

[00:05:58.25] spk_1:
sorry. We surveyed in June, and then we came out in July.

[00:06:24.14] spk_0:
Okay, I see. So June, still early in the pandemic, Dale. Um, but uncertainty remains. And and now we’ve Now we’ve added the election to the pandemic and economic uncertainty and social justice upheaval. Uh, there’ve been more murders of black folks at the hands of police. So there’s Yeah. Uncertainty.

[00:06:25.31] spk_2:
Yeah, lots of uncertainty. When will there be a vaccine? When can we all get together again, et cetera, And all the other topics and all the, you know, all the details and sub issues of all of those that that still remain in our culture. So, yes, there’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s frankly, always a lot of uncertainty, but right now it’s at a fever pitch and times

[00:06:48.26] spk_0:
times five or six.

[00:08:45.54] spk_2:
Yeah, Exactly. And things were just shifting and changing so rapidly. It is really hard to get a handle on things. So I think one of the big differences between then and now when people completed the study and now is the biggest worry was Oh, my gosh, the pandemic. What does this really mean for us? You know, back in the beginning, you may recall people are thinking and we’ll be out of the office for two weeks and we’ll come right back. Well, now we know it’s gonna be more like a year and a half or so, um, we don’t really know. So now we’ve started to see people sort of settle in and and know that they have to continue operating. They can’t just stop. They have to continue operating, um, in the face of uncertainty. And so we’re starting to see people, you know, really? Take, I I would say one of three pathways count. I’m curious to see what you are seeing. And and tony, I’m sure you have an interesting perspective as well. But I think there are some people that have, uh, strategies from before that still have some merit. They might have had to update them or makes, um, you know, course corrections, but they’re still going strong with what? They’re what they’re doing. Um, some people and I’m talking about, in particular with revenue. Um, some people have had to make wholesale change, for example, organizations that are really dependent on in person revenue, like like concerts and, you know, performances and Gallas and things like that. It’s very difficult to be in in, you know, together and digital works to an extent. And then there are people that are really scrambling to figure out how they’re going to shift their revenue. Ah, lot of times, many of these, maybe your listeners, they run smaller organizations who may not have their footing. Yet they may not have developed repeatable, reliable revenue, which is really one of the hallmarks of being an unsustainable position. And so so this. This is a group that has to be really deliberate and thoughtful about their business model to make sure that they’re being creative. And they’re being thoughtful about the revenue sources that they developed. But they make sure that they understand how their business model functions so they take on the right

[00:09:15.84] spk_0:
forms of revenue. And Karen, I guess these these three sort of cohorts, maybe our sets of of of leaders, uh, emerged from those narrative comments that you were talking about.

[00:10:42.04] spk_1:
Well, we really saw that 0.3 kind of leaders, people who were still in a panic mode like Oh my gosh, and just kind of like whining. And it’s difficult in a survey because you’re taking a survey in any 15 minutes and you might have just had disastrous news. And so a little whining would be natural, appropriate, but the collection of the information and then there was these people who are kind of in this phase. We’re, like, really factual. This is is the tires of my car all flat? What am I going to do to fix it? And then this third group that was moving what we call the solving cells they were already moving into some like, Let’s try this. Let’s try that. So the e think in some ways we’re all we’re all those places, depending on what’s happening, we move through some of that, um, post election. Maybe we thought we were gonna have a plan, and all of a sudden it’s like, Oh, my gosh, how did this happen? Or where we at on Dhe then was like. Okay, now, this is what is what do I do with it? So it’s a begins to be a resilience model. The challenge is, is if you get stuck in any of those places if if you are just, you know, totally in the fax, we can’t operate. We can’t do it. We can’t that that’s a challenge, because you’re not gonna You’re not gonna make it. You’ve got to find some way to try to survive. You may not make it anyway, but trying something that makes logical sense, um is, I think, imperative.

[00:11:07.04] spk_0:
Alright. And that’s ideal for kicking us off with. With the last 25 or 30% of your your study is devoted to what? You know, how do we go forward? What? What’s the value of this info for your organizations? And by the way, let’s shout out where folks can get a copy of the study. Where is that? Karen? Okay, I’ll tell you what. I’m gonna talk to Karen. So, Gail, why don’t you look that up? That’s okay. Yeah, well, we want folks to be able to get this because we waken, uh, take off some of the stuff that I would like most to talk about, but there’s a lot more in the report. So, Karen, um, you the first thing you suggest is taking care of yourself, taking care of your organization. I’ve had other guests say the same thing, but it merits, you know, self care, organizational care. What, your ideas there.

[00:11:43.34] spk_1:
And And I would say part of that self care is recognizing you need more thinking time thinking

[00:11:44.10] spk_0:
is thinking is highly underrated. Yeah, terribly underrated thinking. Thinking is valuable,

[00:12:41.14] spk_1:
amazing and and define the place in time to say I am not gonna put out a fire for the next hour or whatever it takes. And I want to think about what it feels like. Maybe in six months. One of the re reading of some of the data is we were in June. We were so much right now. We were so much in the present. This is happening now and there was no there was no discussion of the election in June. There was no discussion off what the new year would bring, what we’ll be doing in 2021 that was six months away. Not all of us are into the future. But some of us should have been talking about it. So that ability to self care to take some time to think as well as toe recognize no one has been on this path before. No one has the answers. You don’t either. But you know your organization best and prioritize your brilliance about that.

[00:13:17.14] spk_0:
Okay? And organization Care to taking care of those who work with you for you, above you. Below you, you know? E feel like because it z things are so uncertain. Way need to take care of. We do need to take care of each other. You know, we have to go beyond the normal for some nurturing for some listening for some empathy, compassion. I feel I’m doing that. And I feel it in others to, you know, more. More more questions about How are you doing? How are you doing? You know, not just how are you? Like we used to Do you know before March? How you doing? You know, everything’s fine. Yeah, I’m good. Yeah. Yeah, more. I mean, there’s there’s more depth to that and and, you know, and beyond.

[00:13:38.84] spk_1:
Yeah, and in some ways, we have time we’re no longer running. We’re no longer commuting. Most of us are many of us. We are no longer running. Two meetings across town toe have lunch as a networking meeting. That would take three hours our day. And so we’re working more hours. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal this last week mentioning how many more hours people are working and it’s going to work on dhe yet we still have family obligations. So taking care of the people. Your staff, um, is really critical. I’m working with a group of CEOs, and the conversation they wanna have next is how to keep your non profit staff saying in the midst of a pandemic. So how do you help a staff member who has childcare full time at home?

[00:14:32.14] spk_0:
So, yeah, we need to be good to each other and understanding. Empathic compassionate. Yeah. Um, So, Gail, I didn’t mean to be the directive male testosterone burdening. But when I said look this up for you know? So, yeah, you give you homework while I was talking to Karen s. Oh, where can we find this study?

[00:14:36.54] spk_2:
I made a quick, short length. That’s not even that short but tiny u r l dot com forward slash revenue study results

[00:14:44.94] spk_0:
Okay, so it one more time,

[00:14:52.70] spk_2:
I put it in the chat box here to revenue a tiny URL dot com slash revenue study results.

[00:15:31.54] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help you build relationships with journalists because of our relationship started and nurtured by turn to the New York community. Trust got to features in The Wall Street Journal. That’s the value of the pre existing relationships Turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Pan, a Pento, used to be an editor at The Chronicle of Philanthropy. The return hyphen two dot ceo Now back to how to work in uncertainty You’re you have ideas about revamping strategy.

[00:18:47.54] spk_2:
Yeah, well, so as I was starting to say, with with your business model, a lot of organizations are continuing with revenue forms that they had in this study. We found, um, interestingly, some conflicting information. Whereas some respondents found that individual giving was decreased, uh, or they expected it to decrease over time. Another group found that that was their shining light, that it was the form of revenue that was going to increase eso, you know? So I guess it’s sort of just depends where people are in their life cycles and where they are in their strategies and so on and so forth. But one of the hallmark mindsets that we saw that came from this are, as Karen said, the ones who had moved along the scale of resilience and who were taking a very positive mindset. Who were they believed all out in their mission and in their abilities to get the word out about their mission and all the, you know, all the good work that their organizations were doing and to think really creatively about how to move forward. And so, in thinking about a new organizations business model A Z, I mentioned earlier organizations need to be thinking about what forms of revenue have the most staying power now. And how might they want to expand the revenue? What other you know, are there other sources that could be coming into the fold? But they have to do it again very thoughtfully for, uh, for how the organization works. So a business model is not just revenue that comes in and expenses that go out. That’s a budget. Ah, business model is actually the system about how you know how the business side of your organization actually operates. So, for example, um, corporate sponsorship is a big piece of my expertise, and people call me all the time with questions about sponsorship and getting some help with that. And I’m always listening for the right conditions that are going to help them create success. And I try to guide people when I’m hearing conditions that won’t be successful. So, for example, every business model has some key activities key relationships that are important for success. Sponsorship, for example, requires an active marketing operation, a strategy, a set of operations, an audience to be successful. It requires staff and organizational competence, because if you don’t have anyone that can actually go out and talk to a corporation and you know, initiate relationships to develop them, then you know you’re not gonna have success there. And so it sounds like a pretty obvious peace. But, uh, you know, organizations are under a lot of pressure from the board members. Let’s try this. Let’s try that Somebody that I spoke to recently said Oh, well, you know, our board member thinks we oughta have sponsorship. And when we talked further, three organization doesn’t really have a marketing push. Uh, it’s maybe not even appropriate that they would have a consumer market being pushed. They certainly don’t have events that would be viable. Sources of revenue and the work that they do. It was very intimate, very personal. And so I just said to her, I’m not really sure that sponsorship is the right fit for you. She was relieved. She was relieved to hear that, because now her brain is freed up and she can focus on revenue sources that are gonna be the right fit. So we are all four. And Karen, I’m sure you would echo this. We’re all for people being creative. But don’t spend your wheels on creativity where you know, you have roadblocks right in front of you. So you have to really make sure that your business model is the right fit for any form of revenue that you’re gonna pursue

[00:19:22.57] spk_0:
anything you wanna add. Thio?

[00:19:26.94] spk_1:
Yeah. Tell on opposite story. Because because it really depends on who you are and what kind of value you could bring to the market. So looking for your revenue in terms of what is our value, how can we bring it? Who needs that value? One of the woman people I work with, who is the CEO? They had been doing a lot of educational events, and we see the little bit of sponsorship well, their their revenue for those has just gone up tremendously. They recognize that the rate is a medical related thing. That the doctors who people who are promoting different health cures and their industry could no longer reach patients directly except through them. And so their ability to capitalize on that restriction inside of doctors offices like payday for them on dhe, they’ve taken advantage of it. So what may not be your neighbor friends? Non profit solution may indeed be your solution, and that’s matching that value that you have. And now maybe you can see new value with the value of what people are seeking and making those connections.

[00:20:32.10] spk_2:
That’s a good point, I think, to some of the other issues that you mentioned tony. So the racial justice issues, for example, that’s another, uh, that’s another, uh, point of leverage because obviously many nonprofit organizations are really devoted to racial justice issues, you know? Well, even before the incidents, the death of George Floyd this summer and, um, organizations that may not have had that as strongly on the radar certainly are more interested in that now. And that is a point of overlap with the corporate sector. We’re all saying that this is a really important issue. So there may be opportunities to have work funded or to expand audiences in the and in the, you know, in the colors of community. Ah, commune communities of color. Eso that people more people are being attracted to these missions and corporate sponsors. Sponsors can benefit from that as well, and can help, you know, joined the cause

[00:21:51.24] spk_0:
again. Let’s stay with you for your next idea is just basically keep. Just keep asking. Uh, including for for requests, planned gifts, But keep on asking your folks for for support,

[00:21:53.04] spk_2:
right? So, yeah, I mean, Mawr and more organizations are, you know, communicating with donors and communicating with supporters throughout the year. And, um, you know, there there has to be ah, lot of emotional mo mentum without causing donor fatigue at the same time. So these regular opportunities to be in touch with donors and to be, um, you know, engaging them in the mission, engaging them emotionally. And what’s happening, um, is what’s gonna really help bring that donor to the fold? An

[00:22:30.45] spk_0:
individual individual generosity was something that you highlight in the in. Early reports of the survey, as as a shining moment, are shining experience for a lot of non profits that their donors have come through for them. But of course, you got to keep asking so that give them the opportunity to come through for you.

[00:23:59.24] spk_2:
Yeah, I think a lot of ah lot of organizations in the beginning, uh, sort of panicked, not seeing where their mission fit in the big scheme of the pandemic on I know, I had several conversations like this with executive directors and leaders and the nonprofit sector that, you know, we need organizations of all stripes. Right now, we still need the full panoply, the full infrastructure of non profit service’s to help, you know, continue making our society better because, you know, there is such a ripple effect from all of these issues, from racial injustice from the pandemic and, you know, health care disparities and so on and so forth. So we need all the non profit infrastructure justice importantly and therefore non profits have an opportunity to really update and update their messaging update the ways that they’re talking about some of these really topical issues and how their cause their mission is to attack or solve a certain portion of it and keep their organization in the spotlight. So it’s really important for this regular communication at the same time, while acknowledging that some people may not have the means to give at this time because, you know, we do have a you know, a problem with the recession. At the same time,

[00:24:07.81] spk_0:
you need to be understanding but still straightforward about what your needs are. Yeah, not not humble about it. Yeah, Karen, let’s go back to you for looking at risks. Uh, this it’s It’s sort of running through what we’ve been talking about a little bit, but just make it explicit, you know, looking at risks to potential revenue.

[00:24:27.44] spk_1:
Absolutely. I think everyone woke up and realized that their earned revenue wasn’t a sure thing was it was one of the first biggest learnings. Um, but they’re also going back to the donors that that donors were like the heroes of this because they showed you people loved you. Um, one of the useful things your listeners conduce oh, is to write down all the things that are worrying them and look at the ones that they really can control. Um, you know, they cannot control um, when we get the vaccine. I don’t think unless they’re variant vaccines on dhe, they can control a lot of things they can’t control when it will really be there. Special. Most favorite people will come out and come to their meetings again. We don’t know, but they can control how often they talked to those donors and what they offer them bring them and share and how they provide that value. So getting out and saying, My gosh, this whole list of things, it’s like, Oh, my gosh, it’s so scary. Well, a number of those you can’t do anything about, but the ones that you can are the ones you can focus on and and and getting real clear where you have leverage with your time and energy and effort, and then really, in terms of your revenue.

[00:25:31.54] spk_0:
Now, that’s excellent. You know, Look, focus on what you can control and, you know, obsessed privately about that which you can’t. But you’re you’re non profit. Needs not to be going down the path of, you know, What are we gonna do about when the vaccine comes out? You know, our Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. Um, let’s stay with you for a digital You. I think a lot of non profit have already figured out some of this, but there’s There may be more work to be done around enhancing your digital, um presents skills.

[00:26:04.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. Digital is gonna be with us. We are not going back. You know, I just don’t think every board’s gonna ever meet every time at once a month in person again, I think we’re gonna have selective. So we’re gonna have a hybrid world. And so we all need to have some growth in digital skills. And it’s well worth watching the zoom videos and getting getting up to date on those and getting some skills because you need to figure out how to do breakout rooms and poles and all those things. But that aside, digital is becoming one of the heroes of this experience to people are having events that were for their local people who could come in for the evening and comfort event. And all of a sudden, the people who are coming to events, it’s much larger in his national or statewide. And who knew that I was doing in Miami biz? Um, conference last week? And we have people from all over the state of Florida, and I’m thinking, Oh, it’s not Miami biz anymore. It’s statewide, And what does that mean? And who are you? And if you’re really good at digital, maybe that’s your revenue opportunity.

[00:27:06.74] spk_0:
Yeah, your events are no longer constrained by where you’re gonna host, huh? Where you’re going to rent a hotel ballroom or or by where your offices

[00:27:15.44] spk_1:
and your ticket prices might be very different.

[00:27:21.89] spk_0:
Yes, right, right. All right, Gail. Anything you want to add? Thio Digital Digital presence.

[00:27:39.49] spk_2:
Well, I just think that helping people focus on expanding their capabilities. Uh, and seeing you know, people may feel flummoxed about digital skills. Uh, e think I

[00:27:41.23] spk_1:
think you

[00:27:41.57] spk_4:
have been

[00:27:41.84] spk_2:
out to two ways e Karen around Karen. And

[00:27:46.75] spk_0:
don’t just pick your co authors. Pronunciation. Karen, you talk breaker.

[00:27:50.40] spk_1:
I know what she met.

[00:28:09.07] spk_0:
Okay, Perfect. Middle of the road. All right, I get about what part of the country are you in? Maybe that Z in Philadelphia. I’m from New York, New Jersey. I mean, I live in North Carolina now, but now, so that’s not the explanation. Yeah.

[00:28:09.77] spk_2:
Anyway, yeah, So people might be stumped about about gaining digital skills, But But if people could start to see that as an opportunity, I’m really an optimistic person. So trying to see some of these new changes in our world as positive as you know, new ways to communicate with people and that there are, you know, so many people figuring these technical, you know, technical skills out or these thes new capabilities out. So the goal might be, um, learning how to have new capabilities for the organization and continuing to expand resilience so that when you emerge from this period, whatever it is, however long it is, you’re stronger in that you have new capabilities. You’ve learned new ways to hold events or you learned new ways to market to people. I’m working with a client, right? now on really subsea financially expanding the way that they attract new people to the organization using all kinds of digital skills. And it’s really been fun. It builds on things that I already knew how to dio that they were sort of new to. But we’re all learning new things together about how toe how toe communicate with people when we can’t see them with limited budgets so that their organization can continue to grow The same organization also, um, expand. Like many organizations turned their in person event into a virtual one wants to have their virtual event in person next year. But they thought that there’s so much value about their virtual event that they’re going t o continue doing it. But for a very specific audience that may have less access to the in person one because of costs And

[00:29:56.41] spk_0:
probably so they have a digital component with camera camera, too, and live streaming

[00:30:02.64] spk_2:
exactly, exactly and and all kinds of other capabilities. So so it really you know, while this might be a difficult time and they’re all exhausted and they’re working so hard and doing so much, but by the time and there’s some other changes that we made digitally to that that we just realized. Yes, you’re like, Oh, my gosh, We’re gonna have all this new data. So? So making these commitments and these steps and he’s taking these actions now is gonna pay off later. So it’s, you know, we’re all slogging through and trying to find moments of joy through through this, you know, challenging time for everybody, but hopefully will all emerge stronger and with new capabilities and more resilient in the long run. And that’s the That’s the eye on the prize right now.

[00:30:48.84] spk_0:
Okay? No, Gale, you’re trained, is a futurist, and we’re recording on Wednesday, November 4th. So who’s gonna win the election?

[00:30:57.29] spk_2:
Futurist? The first thing futures learn is you don’t make predictions, okay? Yeah, exactly, But we

[00:31:06.02] spk_0:
already within the next. It’ll

[00:31:07.40] spk_1:
be a white male. What

[00:31:10.38] spk_0:
do you say?

[00:31:10.70] spk_1:
Yeah, it will be a white male

[00:31:12.43] spk_0:
male. Yeah,

[00:31:13.18] spk_2:
in their seventies. Yeah, hopefully

[00:31:18.24] spk_0:
the vice president will not be, um eso eso futurist. You don’t want to touch like the next 18 months. You have to go 18 months and out. Is that Is that like you have a boundary beyond within which you will not. Well, some some awareness or understanding off.

[00:31:36.84] spk_2:
Yeah, different futures focus on different time horizons. There’s some some futures that focus really long term. So, for example, there are colleagues of mine that might focus 10 50 years out and might advice, for example, depart Ah, highway department in a state that has a growing population so that they can figure out where to put highways. My focus tends to be shorter term because that’s what nonprofits really need help with eso the advice this week. Yeah, not this week. Yeah, look a little bit longer the next couple of years. Just take a look at all the all the trends that are happening and the impact of those trends. And, um and again, as Karen said, spend some time thinking, see what this might mean for yourselves and don’t get hung up about any one way or the other because the future hasn’t happened yet. Eso we wanna be thinking about all the possible futures and carve out your path where you want to go. But always stay alert. Toe all of these different trends and resilient Yeah, and be willing. Thio shift on a dime when you learn more information so that you are prepared for any threats and you have the opportunity to seize opportunities and you don’t get, you know, you don’t get caught under a nen coming wave that you hadn’t thought about. It just helps us some more creative and more resilient and more agile as we’re going through this.

[00:33:21.14] spk_0:
And you know that that sounds like a, you know, a lead into the to our sixth idea, which is considering new markets, new audiences. Um, So I’m gonna turn to Karen too. Sort of Take us out. And, uh

[00:34:04.23] spk_1:
Okay, So So it’s we kind of have referred to it in this conversation. People finding new ways. Andi, I think this is the crux of what the message is is what worked in January. Probably is never gonna work quite the same way again. And in some ways, that’s a good thing on and one of the people I work with, I am not going back. I’m not doing some of those things, so it’s an opportunity to shed some things on, then make room for the new possibilities. Who needs your value? Where can it be provided? How can you communicate that that that you have this value and that they should really invest in you to get it is really the the hub of finding new places.

[00:34:36.74] spk_0:
All right, that’s Karen Ibra Davis. She’s at K e d. Consult dot com and co author of the study. What’s really happening with non profit revenue is Gail Bauer, who remains a, uh, flummoxed futurist. She’s at gale Bauer dot com and at Gale Bauer study again is at tiny u r l dot com slash revenue Study results. Karen Gayle Thank you very very much for sharing.

[00:34:39.34] spk_2:
Thank you so much, tony.

[00:34:40.67] spk_1:
It’s been a pleasure.

[00:34:50.22] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Tony is take two my webinar. I’m hosting a free webinar. Start your plan to giving in 2021. Yes, I’m hosting Kind

[00:34:55.08] spk_1:
of

[00:36:55.95] spk_0:
nice hosting my own, No longer subjugated to the will of the outside hosts. Know which I’m Of course, I’m always grateful for I get so many invitations, I don’t have time to host my own. But so at this time I’m hosting my own webinar. No, no more subjugation. Uh, it’s a quick shot. We’re gonna do this in 50 minutes. What plan giving is how to identify your best prospects, where to start your plan giving program, how to market your new program. And, of course, I’m gonna leave plenty of time for questions, which is my favorite. I enjoy the questions a lot, so I hope you’ll ask a lot. We’re doing this quick shot on November 19th. Thursday Thursday, November 19th at three O’clock Eastern. You can sign up for the Free Webinar at planned giving accelerator dot com slash webinar. That number again planned giving accelerator dot com slash webinar. I hope you’ll be with me posting my own, that is tony. Stick to now. It’s time for low cost fundraising software guide I’m pleased to welcome the co authors of Tech Impacts. Consumers Guide to Low Cost Fundraising software. Amid the Heart is a contract writer and researcher for Tech Impacts, Ideal Wear and president of Heart Strategic Marketing. She has a wide range of experience helping nonprofits assess their needs, select software to meet them and engage audiences and constituents. She’s at comedy Am a D. I. E. Chris Bernard is managing editor at Tech Impact. He’s a career writer and journalist with 20 years experience in newspapers, magazines, advertising, corporate and nonprofit marketing and communications and freelance writing. Tech Impact is at Tech Impact dot or GE. Comedy Chris Welcome to non profit radio. It’s good to have you.

[00:36:59.23] spk_3:
Thank you for having us, tony.

[00:37:02.73] spk_0:
Absolute pleasure. Chris. Let’s start with you. Please acquaint our listeners with Tech Impact.

[00:37:45.90] spk_4:
Sure, tech impact is a national non profit. We offer a variety of programs, and service is to other nonprofits everything from tech consulting software selection. Managed service is to our workforce development programs in Delaware, Philadelphia in Las Vegas, where we offer all sorts of educational opportunities for young people. We also have, since 2000 and 18, when we merged with Ideal, where we have an arm of the non profit that produces all sorts of publications and training for nonprofits around the country, most of them free of charge, including this. This publication we’re talking about today

[00:38:17.96] spk_0:
Now I used to refer toa ideal wear when I had Karen Graham on, she was the CEO of idea where, as the consumer reports of non profit software and she bristled a little bit, not really. You know, Karen didn’t get upset. I don’t know if she ever gets upset. She didn’t get upset at me. She bristled a little bit like a little pushback. Well, not quite. Uh, do you? Do you object to that? Do you bristle it? That that explains that whatever description of idea where

[00:38:20.51] spk_4:
you have been with ideal where since 2000 and six. Tony and we that is certainly accurate for one part of what we do. I think if anybody would argue that point, it’s only that we do so much more than just software reviews.

[00:38:35.22] spk_0:
Okay, Okay, Fair enough. Alright. I’m sure Karen explain that to me too. But because she bristled, I have to bring it up. So? So let’s let’s let’s dive into the title. So we know what folks are gonna be looking at and what they should be expecting. So how do you define low cost?

[00:38:54.22] spk_3:
Well, that’s one of the things that we did. Well, we first embarked upon the report over the years, we’ve always had fairly standard methodology for how we go about the report. And one of the factors that we do with the very beginning is decide. Okay, what is blow cost in today’s market? So in today’s market. We were talking with subject matter experts who represented people who work in non profits and work with the technology, as well as consultants who help nonprofits with their technology and decided that for this version of the report, $10,000 for a year’s worth of software is about the ceiling that we could have.

[00:39:38.12] spk_0:
Okay. And how about fundraising? How do you define fundraising versus C. R. M or donor management? Because this used to be called the guide. The low cost donor management software. Yes, we actually

[00:41:08.31] spk_3:
had a lot of conversations about that. Um, with all the systems that we have in here really run the gamut, some of them do call themselves C R M. Some of them do call themselves donor management systems, and some call themselves fundraising systems. And so we do set aside part of the report to talk about what we mean by each one. Um, so for the systems that were in the report, we needed them or to, um, really be the sole database for a non profit or have the ability to be the sole database for a non profit, um, and then let them do things like create online forms, a variety of online forms. Let them, um, creating collect data from email marketing campaigns. We did require systems in the report to be cloud based, and we also did require them to be able to, um, process online payments either natively or through an integration. Um, we needed them to be able to track fundraising metrics on the dashboard, um, and manage a report on both online on direct mail fundraising campaigns. So it’s a sort of, ah, lot mawr expensive than the systems that we looked at in previous versions of this report. Because in many ways, the work the nonprofits of I was doing in this area have really expanded a lot. And they’ve required systems and technology to keep up

[00:41:35.41] spk_0:
with that. You have 10 different functionalities that you measured. You measure all the system against I know, um, and that folks is just gonna have to get the guide. Obviously, we’re not gonna take off all 10 functionalities. Um, Chris, I’m guessing, uh, the following is not the right question to ask. What’s the best system? Uh huh. We try 5.5 minutes. We could just wrap it up. What thing You don’t Nobody has to read the guide.

[00:41:44.51] spk_4:
This is the fifth edition of the guide. And one thing that has not changed throughout the course of each generation is that we make a ZX clear as possible that there is no best system. This is not about ranking the systems against one another. It’s about teaching nonprofits what systems offer and how to compare them and how to select the best one for their needs. Because ultimately that is the best system. It’s going to depend on your specific needs,

[00:42:16.10] spk_0:
and you have very conveniently, I think, a dozen different use cases so that you can try to fit your needs into maybe one of those use cases, or maybe overlap a little bit like tiny but growing and prices critical midsize and want a system that grows with us. Meet easy, set up and use. No. And you have a dozen of those different use cases,

[00:42:50.50] spk_4:
right? That was one of the, uh, the features that comedy brought to this edition of the guide, where we’re always looking for ways to make it easier for the nonprofits in our audience to access the knowledge that’s in it. It’s a massive undertaking to put together, but it’s also a massive undertaking to read. Yeah, comparing that many systems against hundreds of requirements, criteria just results in a lot of data. And how do you make that data useful? So looking for sort of entry points for nonprofits, Ahmedi came up with the idea of coming up with use cases that were common to nonprofits in our audience demographic to help them understand how other nonprofits reusing the system, find the use case. That sort of matched in a reasonable sense what they were doing. And then that’s that’s sort of a starting point for them. Thio begin Narrowing Systems

[00:43:30.49] spk_0:
The comedy. This is the first guy that you participated with?

[00:43:35.31] spk_3:
No, actually, I did work on. I did several of the software evaluations from the previous version of this guide, and I can’t take full credit for the use cases and that we had a smaller, um, or more limited version of use cases in the last edition of the guide that helped, uh, divide up some of the systems or sort them into categories. But what we heard from people in the intervening years was That was one of the first things that they turned to in the last edition of the guide when they were trying to get their hands around what systems toe look at because they didn’t feel like reading all of the profiles. So realizing that that waas, um, the most useful entry point for non profits made it much more, um, it made it much more attractive as

[00:44:31.09] spk_0:
e made it more accessible. Yes. You know, these are the 44 or five systems that will suit best. This, uh, this use case, you know, And like I said, you know, times 12. So whoever is best for this, how do you think non profit could best use the guide, like Or maybe maybe what do we have? What we have to know in advance before we can get the most out of the out of the guide.

[00:45:02.59] spk_4:
I’m gonna let Ahmedi field that question, but I just wanna close the use case conversation by pointing out that not all the systems eso we picked systems to match each of the use cases, but depending on each organization, specific needs other systems that we didn’t choose for a particular use case might still be perfectly valid system for that use case, and it really comes down to specific needs. We just can’t drive home enough that this is the beginning of the conversation. And it should not replace due diligence on the part of the non problems themselves.

[00:46:49.68] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. You know what? I’m ready before we before we take on that. How best? Use it. Well, but I feel like we should just I just wanna take off a bunch of the I can’t mention them. I can’t name them all, But just so folks get an idea of what what products we’re talking about I just wanna I’m gonna sample from the table of contents. So black black Bart Boomerang e tapestry Every action Kila little green light nation builder Network for good Neon C r M salesforce salsa virtuous. Okay, so I just So people get an idea What? Just have some sense of what the universe is like that we’re talking in the abstract about time for our last break dot drives dot drives engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives is thes simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. They have made it customizable, collaborative, intuitive. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships. If you want to get folks from prospect to donor, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. It’s at the listener landing page. Tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for low cost fundraising software guide. So how should we? How can we best use this thing? What? This This thing, this guide, it took you like, 20 minutes. You know you thing, it’s like, uh, less time than this interview is. This conversation is the guy’s done? No. This, uh, in depth guide. What should we have in place or what should we be thinking about? Like before we take it on?

[00:47:09.26] spk_4:
Well, I think it

[00:47:52.08] spk_3:
follows along really much of the best practices in choosing any software system, not just, um, donor management or fundraising or C r. M. And the first thing that you dio is have do a lot of work internally about what it is that you do now, um, and what it is that you’re going to be doing in the future, Like what your goals are for fundraising and how the software can possibly help you meet those goals. So once you go in there, we have a full section that actually goes through the 10 different types of functionality that we review in the guide and talks about different questions that nonprofits can ask about things that they do. Um, that how it how it fits into, um, their work and so they can use that section to decide what it is that are the most important functions that a software package would do to meet the goals that they have, um, selected both presently and for the future. And then from there, they can prioritize that and then use those, um, prioritize functions to take a look at which systems do well in those functions. Which systems offer those functions? So while we have sort of the high level look at it in the in the pdf version of the report, the online version of the report actually goes into depth on every single function that is below the is part of the 10, um, divisions that we have so that self so that nonprofits can really look at the details and figure out which systems do exactly what and whether or not, it meets their needs.

[00:49:09.07] spk_0:
So the guide is that guides dot tech impact dot or ge slash forward slash donor hyphen management, hyphen systems and Chris. There’s much more than a PdF there. I mean, there’s certainly there’s a pdf version of the guide could go through that, but there’s a lot more on that site. A lot more robustness. Talk about what? What folks will find it that u R L

[00:49:58.27] spk_4:
Yeah, sure, we, as I mentioned before, this is the fifth edition of this guide, but we have probably put out more than two dozen consumers guides on different topics over the years, and it had long been a dream of ours. That idea where to make it even more useful to our audience with a digital version of the site that could be interactive that offered searchable sort herbal charts toe make it more user friendly to compare systems on. This is the first guy that we’ve been able to offer that, uh, digital site, which so it’s kind of a micro site version of the report, and we are adding functionality to it on a rolling basis as we’re able to so in the next week or two. We’re hopeful that we’ll be able to announce, um, added functionality to the comparison charts that let people just highlight which systems they want to compare in, which features they’d like to compare them against so that that’s coming.

[00:50:16.86] spk_0:
That’s just like consumer reports, just like you could do Sorry camera. You could do a head to head comparison or compared two or three on the criteria. The functionalities that are most important to you,

[00:50:28.35] spk_4:
right? And we have the common mission with consumer reports of educating people about purchases because this is a big, big purchase for nonprofits and thio that same point because there’s so much information in this report, and yet there’s still so much information we don’t cover. We’re also offering a companion training Siri’s, where one of our expert trainers is conducting live demos of 12 systems from this guide, and thanks to the generosity of Fidelity Charitable Trust, we’ve been able to make that Frito anybody who signs up while that Siri’s is already underway. All those demos are being recorded, so anybody who goes to the tech impact website and signs up for that training can have for free access to live demos or recorded demos of the 12 systems from this report.

[00:51:19.61] spk_0:
How did you pick those 12 question? Well, there are 12 use cases. I wow already know the answer, but I’m asking you,

[00:51:56.16] spk_4:
I’m gonna let Omni speak to this one in more detail. But we chose 12 systems toe line up with the use cases, not because they are the best systems, but because the it would be a little bit too much of a lift for us to do the detailed long reviews of every system out there. So we chose 12 that Air Representative off what systems can do in terms of meeting the needs of organizations for each of those use cases. How many do you want to add to that expound on that or clarify that?

[00:51:59.19] spk_1:
Yeah. So overall, we have 20

[00:52:01.16] spk_3:
three systems in the report on dhe. 12 of them, as Chris just said, were chosen to represent the 12 East cases that we have to select the ones from the use case. It wasn’t again the best system. Um, but it was a system that was highly representative off what you can do in a good portion of the use case. So, for example, the use case that we have for organizations that do a lot of, uh events is that we took a look at the ones that had strong events packages. Um, you know, uh, most of the systems that we looked at had either, uh, native or integration to be able to do some work on events. But there are some that really provide ah, lot of features around events. And so those were the ones that were in there and the ones that the one that we chose to represent the events category, um was, you know, a really good representative of that in a good representative. Overall,

[00:53:04.06] spk_4:
we get a lot of emails from people saying we’re looking at two systems. Neither of them are in your list of 12. What’s wrong with our systems? And we wanna We wanna make it clear that all the systems in this report are excellent systems. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, and that’s what’s going to guide people’s decisions. There are other systems that didn’t make it in this report. They’re also excellent.

[00:53:29.82] spk_0:
You say that you say that explicitly the report. Yeah, but they just didn’t meet your criteria for evaluation. Right?

[00:53:50.25] spk_4:
And people can read about the methodology by which we the methodology we used to find systems and how we narrow the list down on. We’re happy to answer questions by email, but it’s an important note that just because it’s not one of the 12 that we chose is representative To meet those use systems does not mean it’s not a good system, and that should not be a deciding factor. This is just an effort to educate people toe, help them start making decisions about what’s right for them.

[00:54:05.24] spk_0:
And Chris, those 12 videos are at the site that I read.

[00:54:27.94] spk_4:
Uh, no, I will put a link up there. But if you go to Tech Impact dot or GE and look at our training calendar, you confined that training on. Sign up for that and we will send you a link to all the different recordings that we’ve already done. A ZX well, Azaz, uh, invitation for the upcoming ones that have not happened yet. Okay, Okay. In fact, I’ll send you a link. You can post it on your page with this recording, if you like.

[00:54:39.54] spk_0:
Okay. Yeah, Thank you. I will. Um What else? We still got a few minutes left together. What else? You want folks to know about the guide? You’re unwilling to answer the question? What’s the best system? So that’s off the tape. That one’s off the table? Uh, no. What else would you like to know? What else would you like folks to know about the guide?

[00:54:48.74] spk_4:
I think you hit on a key point, which is that this used to be the consumer’s guide to low cost donor management systems on. For a lot of people who are familiar with that report, which has been out five times in the past, they may not realize that this is the same one because of the title change. So I just want to assure people that this is the same report. We’re just changing the title to be more in line with how the vendors and subject matter experts and users, a ZX well are talking about these systems.

[00:55:19.14] spk_3:
I also wanted to point out that it’s not the guide. While the primary focus of the guide are the reviews of the systems and the profiles that air in there, one of the things that we do put in there is. We take a look at trends and we take a look at how the marketplace has changed. And we do provide, uh, some advice for nonprofits who are in the process of selecting a system about, you know, some of the things that they should be looking out for and some of the things they should be thinking about. So I know it’s a long report. I wrote a lot of words, but that there are some good things in the front of the book material, so to speak, that can help sort of position the systems within the marketplace is the whole

[00:56:06.83] spk_4:
report of this size is a massive effort on. It can’t be done without the participate participation of a lot of people subject matter experts, consultants, but also the vendors themselves who are generous with their time for the demos and the fact checking on. We also couldn’t do it without the generosity of our sponsors. Which brings me to the point that we should talk just quickly about our editorial firewall. People will notice that some of our sponsors are also vendors of systems, but those of us who put the report together don’t know who the sponsors of the report are. That’s handled by Karen Graham in a different part of the building entirely. And we’re not aware of who the sponsors are until publication day. So one has no input with no impact on the other whatsoever.

[00:56:56.53] spk_0:
Do the sponsors know whether their system is going to be part of the guide?

[00:57:20.43] spk_4:
Not when they not not at the time of sponsorship. We have to reach out to them at some point when they become of, you know, when their system is selected, because they have to do the demos and everything. But there are Obviously it’s a limited constellation of vendors out there. All right, it’s tough to fund this kind of work, were grateful for the generosity of all our sponsors and advertisers who make it possible. But we have a pretty rigorous editorial firewall up to prevent any kind of impact from the sponsorship on inclusion in the report.

[00:57:56.03] spk_0:
Okay, we trust Karen Graham. She bristled, but you admonished me, could even go so far to say admonished, Um okay, should we, uh, I’m gonna read the u R l one more time Should we should we leave it there and encourage folks? Thio. Encourage

[00:57:56.70] spk_4:
them to sign up for the free training to see the demos. And if people do need additional help choosing software, if this is still too much of a lift for people to do on their own, which is valid considering the importance of a decision like this, that is something Tech Impact can help with. They can find that on the website as well.

[00:59:40.72] spk_0:
Assistance Assistance with selection. Yeah, okay, again the guide and the site that Chris described. Guides dot tech impact dot or GE forward slash donor Hyphen management Hyphen systems. How many Heart is a contract writer and researcher? Her company is heart strategic marketing, and Chris Bernard is managing editor at Tech Impact. Take impact dot or ge a median. Chris, Thank you so much. Thanks very much, Thank you. Appreciate it. Next week, A special episode. Adult learning with Nico Chin. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Beseeches still good, but I am really liking abdominal abdominal May overtake Beseech I’m not sure were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free month and a free demo. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, be with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

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That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising. That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising.

 

 

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[00:01:53.32] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go into Borba Rig mus if you upset my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show. Fundraising for 01 That’s Lawrence Paige non EA’s latest book. It’s a series of master classes for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in non profit management and fundraising. Tony Stick, You planning for reopening were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a real pleasure to welcome back Lawrence Pack tony Teoh non profit radio. He is chairman of Lap A fundraising serving non profits throughout the world, roughly 25 clients at a time. He’s got 35 years in the sector as executive director and fundraising council, his latest book published this year is fundraising for, 01 master classes in non profit fundraising That would make Peter Drucker proud. The company is at lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Welcome lap. If the firm was lapper your lab, right,

[00:02:00.79] spk_0:
we tripped upon the acronym years and years ago. We always use the full Lawrence Ape Agnone Associates. And

[00:02:07.26] spk_1:
as I remember,

[00:02:08.24] spk_0:
one day, we just had written lap on this and that had good alliteration. We should use that.

[00:02:18.28] spk_1:
Okay, you went the way of ah, of, um, Triple A and ah, and AARP. You know, they don’t You’re not, You know, Lawrence, tape Agnone Associates anymore. Your lap. That’s right. Okay, it’s the It’s the 21st century now. Alright.

[00:02:38.44] spk_0:
But there’s also a mini lesson there for non profits about, uh, branding. Um, trying to get it right at the beginning is important, but good. The difference between good branding and great branding is the width of the Grand Canyon. Um and so I didn’t ever want to venture into rebranding it without great council, which I’ve never been able to afford.

[00:03:29.74] spk_1:
So you stumbled on lap and we evolved, you know, you? Yes, it’s proof that the greatness doesn’t come out in the beginning. You can’t plan all the greatness in the beginning. It has to as to organically come about. So it’s been like 6.5 years. You were on the, uh, your for your first book, the non profit fundraising solution. You are on non profit radio on November 8th, 2013. Wow, when that book was new, seven years ago on dhe. Now, your second, um so let’s let’s get into it. Uh, why does, uh, what is management consultant Peter Drucker belong in the title?

[00:05:16.64] spk_0:
Ah, Homage to Peter Drucker taught me how to think. Ah, well, I guess the Jesuits would take the first bow for that. But Peter Drucker, Um, I was a Peter Drucker fellow in the 19 nineties here in New York City. And it was Peter who taught me how to integrate fundraising into organizational development. Besides just being a great part human being, he was a brilliant strategist and thinker. He of course, wrote the original bulk on reengineering General Motors, and but he spent the last years of his life focused on the what he called the higher profit sector what we call the nonprofit sector. But he, uh he thought that if there wasn’t a coalescing off the non profit sectors values with the business sector, that society would be deficient for for that not happening. So, um, actually, when I started writing this book, um, I didn’t realize the degree to which drug Harry and thinking had Dominy eat it. My own thinking. And it was about a dozen chapters in that my editor said you use Drucker an awful lot. I said, tell me how many times? And then I was, like, astounded. And, um and then I I added that little no. Oh, my him

[00:05:23.14] spk_1:
And And Drucker had the book managing the non profit organization. Yeah. He was committed to the to the sector. To what he got what he called the higher profit. Is that what he called it? The higher profit

[00:05:31.64] spk_0:
profit Peter Drucker?

[00:05:33.28] spk_1:
There it is. And all right,

[00:05:48.29] spk_0:
I’m Crawford organization. It’s been on my desk since 19 91. I think, um, and I read and re read it as I hope you will do my book fund raising for a one coming forward.

[00:05:49.64] spk_1:
Yes. Ive replayed your show on the first book three times since 2013. So I have you, tony. It’s a go to for still is for people who asked me, How do I get the next level? I get that question every maybe a couple times a month. Maybe not that often sometimes, but I recommend the book for how to get to the next level. It’s a It’s a very systematic and sensible approach.

[00:06:27.36] spk_0:
The, uh, the fundraising, The nonprofit fundraising solution was the pros of fundraising. But fundraising for a one is really the poetry. It’s more the art of fundraising, whereas the other one was the science.

[00:06:31.39] spk_1:
Yeah, you say that and you talk about the art and science and one of your chapters. But you talk about growing into answers and moving to a better set of problems with both of which sound artistic talk about that growing into answers and better set of problems.

[00:08:00.24] spk_0:
Well, oftentimes, nonprofits What? There, there. Uh, there’s not enough room in scopes of service, you know, you hire a fundraiser to fundraise and you define a scope of service but a really advanced fundraising system. Once it gets going, it has to look carefully at what the owners are saying. What the institutional funders are saying, Ah, what is working in social media and what’s not for one of our large clients connected with Johns Hopkins University? They weren’t able to raise any money online. And he, um, change the way they approached social Media. And within the first year, they had an extra $100,000 from their social media program. Um, so figuring out as you go long, um, more efficient ways and building that creativity in is very important. And, um, um, and defining it too rigidly. Uh uh, shuts that down.

[00:09:16.36] spk_1:
I did like a better set of problems. No, you tell an anecdote. You, for some reason aboard, was getting involved in whether to buy a fax machine. Let’s not get into whether board should even be deciding whether by fax you. But, you know, you just went out and bought the damn thing yourself. Now the fax machines, not communicating with our donors back when facts that this was many years ago, not communicating with donors and our funders is not a problem, but so that that was for me, that was okay. Better set of problems Let’s not deal with the damn fax machine. I’ll buy it. And now let’s deal with communications. It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. We received RP PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven from your Pee Pee Pee loan? You need to apply for that. It’s not automatic forgiveness. Get the details from the C P, a firm we trust. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to fundraising for 01

[00:10:33.97] spk_0:
But here’s a Here’s a more sophisticated, better set of problems. Let’s say right now you don’t know who you’re monthly donors are or your plan donors are, and you do research to figure out. Maybe a lot of nonprofits don’t know the date of birth of their donors. So let’s say you do research and you integrate just the date of birth into your donor database and you’re able to segment. Um, you know, suddenly you discover, as is the case with one of our clients on, I remember your rule about the difference between active and a passive plan giving program that they discovered they had 750 people over age 65. They were. They were not aware of that until they had their date of birth. And so now they have a better set of problems. They’re able to think about planned giving because they know they have a donor segment. That is ah, that matches that. So that is my definition of organizational growth, too. But a lot of of of us that we have the same problem over and over again, and that is being stuck. And I wrote this book to tease out ways to get unstuck, Um, and to try some new things within your thinking. First and foremost, this is a book about how to think about fundraising,

[00:10:45.37] spk_1:
a series of revelations, Syria’s revolution. So So we’ll talk about a bunch of them. You you talk about, uh, fundraising as, ah analogized Teoh. Dating, dating relationships. No, se little about that.

[00:13:19.24] spk_0:
Sure. So when two people meet, they have to learn what the other person’s up for. They have to learn their values, their mutual sexual attraction, their ability to work on and solve problems together. Now, absent the mutual sexual attraction, the same applies to getting to know your donors putting your donors first, uh, listening funders. Pushing back a little bit with your funders about what you’re really needs are having conversations that are thoughtful. And, um so, uh, getting to know the the revenue streams that you’re working through is just similar to dating, but without the sexual romantic energy listening, listening is critical and mentioned listening. And if you’re not sympathetic, simpatico if you’re not simpatico, um, like, uh, one donor who Who? I was trying to get a six figure gift from four teenage pregnancy prevention program. I’ve been telling this story for years. So pardoned, if you’ve heard it. But it was such a rich experience for me, you know, right early in the conversation, he said, You know, um, I don’t believe teen age should be having sex, and I just let the silence sit there. Of course, inside myself, I’m thinking, you know, e, I just lost the gift, but I just listened Ah, in a posture of tell me more. And then he said, I think honest peak, tony must two minutes must have passed. I really was starting to sweat a little bit, and then he said, but I that not chewy. And, uh, and the clients you serve need the kind of program that your agency is recommending. So let’s talk about how that would work. And so he was up for it, But he was starting from a place of his own, you know, position, but showing flexibility about thinking. So he was up for the dating relationship?

[00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Well, well, what may be the one night stand, but that you have that you have that story in the book. And he gay ended up giving $25,000 right? Because you were a good listener. So maybe that was a one time gift. So now,

[00:13:39.73] spk_0:
no, no, he gave for three years.

[00:13:53.54] spk_1:
I did. All right, All right. So it was a short term relationship. All right. All right. Um, our product, our product is impact. What’s that about?

[00:15:07.06] spk_0:
Well, too many people confuse that they’re giving to your non profit. You know, the bread for the world or partners and Hells or whatever the name of the non profit is, donors don’t give to your non profit. They give for the mission and the impact. And you have to be clear about, you know, with your gift will be ableto have more of an impact. Here’s the impact we’ve had. Here’s the aspirational impact that we’re looking for. Um, Bill, Sure, from share Our strength has been a real role model in the nonprofit sector. Ah, for talking about the rial overhead costs that we should be advocating before to really get the job done, He asked the provocative question, Um, if would you be satisfied if my overhead were 5%? But I didn’t feed All the hungry people came to me. Nurses. If it was 35% and I did feed them all, which would you prefer? And, ah, that that is a good question. And you could each agency could have their version of that, um, to talk about aspirational goals and, um, and and if because if you don’t define them, no one in no one else’s

[00:15:33.44] spk_1:
and you talk about the importance of measuring impact. Yeah, knowing what your return on investment is your r a y ah nde communicating, sharing that it’s it’s critical.

[00:17:02.98] spk_0:
Yes. So having not just an evaluation program that complies with the funders requirements as so many government contracts do, but having a new evaluation program that helps the staff make management decisions about what programs are working and what are not. When I was the non profit CEO of Harlem United for six years, our data showed us that are substance abuse case management program did okay, but what really kept people in sobriety was our pastoral counseling and pastoral care program. Because the clients it was it was nondenominational. It was a healing experience. And it had twice the amount of ah, of sobriety retention as our substance abuse counseling program did. If we hadn’t been looking at the data, we wouldn’t have known that. And so we took that news to religious oriented funders and hired three more pastoral counsellors and built a partnership with Hospital Chaplaincy Inc. Who trains pastoral counsellors. And, um, we have had, uh, we had a strong spike in sobriety amongst our clients. It was really quite beautiful. And it’s lasted for years,

[00:17:36.69] spk_1:
all from understanding what your data is revealing what your true impact is. Yeah. All right. You you mentioned staff were jumping around a little bit, but you you highlight that Ah used to think that clients should come first. But now you feel its staff should come first. Retention strategies, professional development. I don’t know if you mentioned mentoring, but that always comes up, you know, talk about investments and investments that are that need to be made in staff. And why you think staff is number one now,

[00:20:24.54] spk_0:
boy, if I come a long way as a as an advocate for the poor from being a teenager, Um, when I worked in a volunteer in a soup kitchen myself, thanks to my good old Teamster union dad, um, I never wavered from clients first, and, uh, but, um, it’s not that I’m saying clients take a back seat. I’m saying that if we make staff, primary clients will be better served ma staff retention that nonprofits is alarming. And worse yet, Ah, younger generations, um, leave the sector faster than our generation. Those of us in our fifties, they leave the sector faster. Um, because they have a bad experience with a board or the the poor. Compensation is not livable for their family. So but it’s not just about the conditions of employment. It’s also about is the non profit a learning environment A learning organization here at lap of fundraising we have just 1/2 a dozen shared values within our firm and professional development and advancement is, um is one of them, and we pay every year, every staff person has a professional development plan, right, and we pay for it. And, um, we’re happy to do it. Um, because people are staff will tell you. You know, we aspire whether we succeed at it completely, I don’t have to ask them, but we aspire to be a learning organization, not just learning on our accounts, but learning from best practices in the field and colleagues we bring colleagues in, um, we’re big into what’s called the any a gram in our workplace. It’s a it’s ah, it’s an emotional intelligence system for the workplace that that helps people understand how there are clients are viewing the world how they’re built. The India graham dot Any a gram institute dot or ge. I believe, um, would introduce you to it has some videos there,

[00:21:00.94] spk_1:
so we need to overcome Leave behind this idea that professional development technology to support staff. You know that these air luxuries, you know, we’re way cut. Being a couple of operating systems behind is okay, because it’s more important that we spend our money on the people or the programs. You know, that’s that’s that’s outdated, thinking you and what we’re seeing in terms of younger folks leaving the sector is bearing out that bearing out out. That’s evidence that we’re not providing what they’re looking for. So they try one or two jobs and then they leave. That’s that’s not talk about not sustainable.

[00:21:26.64] spk_0:
I could just hear some of your audience members saying asked Lawrence to tell me where to find money for technology improvements or, UM, or professional development.

[00:21:28.69] spk_1:
All right, well, good. You’re channeling the audience like Ideo. Ask the other. Answer them.

[00:23:19.64] spk_0:
It’s hard. Um, I know what what we do is we build it into our overhead rate and where we can we try to get so many nonprofits have such a low overhead rate, and that’s again back with Bill Shore was talking about, um, some government contracts actually curb you at 10% and most nonprofits haven’t overhead rate at least a 23 24% and arguably it should be probably close to the 35. I think all the major universities are somewhere north of 50% overhead. So trying to get it into your overhead and then, of course, looking form or general operating support by identifying donor advised funds, which, by definition, as you know tony, are hidden. There are profiles you could use to assume that somebody probably has a donor advised fund. We do that nor prospect research. And then, of course, we asked directly when we’re talking to them or serving them. So people who have donor advised funds are very friendly to, you know, odd costs or what? You know what the As contrast that to institutional funders where you get a grant for your program. Sometimes in those grants you can add a computer. You can say we need, you know, 40 hours of professional development. So integrating it into all your fund raising on into your overhead rate has worked with many of our clients. Um And then, of course, there’s rare occasions when on our f p is issued where you can ask for things like that.

[00:23:31.02] spk_1:
Uh huh. You doesn’t work with sterile needle exchange. Just talk about that a little bit. That sounds like a good story.

[00:24:36.14] spk_0:
Yeah, Harm reduction. Um, again, a better set of problems. Um, it’s better toe. Have needle. Ah, needle users use clean needles, then toe Have them keep using dirty needles because it reduces the spread off HIV and STDs. Ah, and blood born infections. Um, so that’s a better harm. Reduction is a better set of problems with science behind it. And, um, this is true not just in the United States, but in, uh, all throughout the world and European countries who have harm reduction policies. Harm reduction is still needed. It it’s kind of fallen out of fashion. There’s just a handful, maybe two or three funders who are interested in it. The drug policy alliance is still interested in it. And the Komer Foundation, if if they’re still around,

[00:24:40.50] spk_1:
what was What was your work in harm reduction?

[00:25:29.42] spk_0:
Uh, well, I had, uh, helped, um, the New York harm reduction Educators in the Bronx form a hotline so that people could reach them, and, uh, we went to check cashing stores. Um, where the poor, The poor in the Bronx generally don’t use a bank. They pay to have their check cashed, which is a scandal unto itself, but its exorbitant if we would expand the United States Postal Service is toe what it was in the 19 fifties. They they wouldn’t have have that. There’s a direct link between the reduction of the role of the U. S Postal Service in its role with money orders and check cashing and the the upswing of these four profit sleazy check cashing.

[00:25:38.50] spk_1:
Interesting. All right, we’re

[00:26:04.35] spk_0:
but any way went to the check cashing places. And yes, we paid them. We had to pay them when they cashed the cheque to put our business card for the the New York Harm Reduction Educators with 1 800 number on And we saw, on average, 800 new enrollees into the non profit to get access to HIV prevention and treatment service is

[00:27:17.24] spk_1:
I did. I did work in Philadelphia when I was in law school with an organization called Prevention Point, Philadelphia. It was it was a grassroots, sterile needle exchange. Excuse me. They were going toe parks in areas where they knew drug activity was high on weekends and literally distributing marked sterile needles marked so that they knew when they got their own back so they could had some. They had a measure of effectiveness. How many sterile needles were coming back and how maney unmarked needles So dirty needles they were getting off the streets, and that was incredibly rewarding. It was an internship, but just to see the the father’s walk up or drive up with a young child in tow and, you know, taking 1/2 a dozen needles and giving us 1/2 a dozen. Uh, but I know the statistics are there that it reduces on. This was 1989 1990. Uh, no. HIV was much more dangerous than it is now.

[00:28:41.54] spk_0:
And he’s here. You see in art in the conversation right now between tony and I, how a fund raiser discovers his or her product to sell. This is what fundraisers do at the highest level. We listen to the caseworkers to the clients, to the statistics to the the best practice studies, for example, with a affordable housing program that I’m starting to work within Orlando, Florida The executive director was blown away because the first thing we were starting to do is we’ve read 10 years worth of completely boring but totally relevant thinking from the Orlando Housing Authority about their needs assessments. They do them, they’re required to do them every 10 years. And those documents are chock full with with really good data. Um, I mean, that’s something to be a proud of in our country is we still have some semblance of these local civic governments that are doing their due diligence about community need. Um, but this is how fundraisers then get a very powerful case for support develop. Um, and uh huh. That’s why there’s a chapter about impact and the the the product is your program, and it’s a

[00:30:33.04] spk_1:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two reopening from Corona virus. That’s the special episode with Lisa Brauner. I just want to make sure that you heard it. It’s very good, very relevant, and I don’t want you to miss it if, uh, if you’re just sampling the show. Perhaps those were listening to every show, of course. All three of you, Cheryl, Rick and my dad. I’m just kidding about that. My dad doesn’t even know what a podcast is. So for Cheryl and Rick, I know that you are covered, but everybody else, Lisa is very smart. It’s a valuable show. We talk about dozens of issues for you to consider. As you plan to reopen your office reopening from Corona virus, you’ll find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Oh, and please, please keep taking care of yourself. Do it each day. You need it. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Stick to now back to Lawrence Paige. Tony Panyu. Tony. He’s chairman of lap of fundraising. We’re talking about his book fundraising for 01 You talk about the donor as hero? What, uh, what are you thinking there?

[00:30:36.04] spk_0:
Well, uh,

[00:30:37.68] spk_1:
all right. Share your thinking. I know what you’re thinking cause I read your I read your book. So listen, you just got to get the book. If you want to flush out the full thunk thinking Sure. The launch will introduce you to his thinking as donors as heroes,

[00:32:16.34] spk_0:
so many appeal letters or annual reports or newsletter. They make the client the hero. There’s there’s wisdom to that. They make the organization itself the hero. But in fund raising, the donor is the hero. And I grew up in a non profit sector that ignored that the ascent ignored the donor. The essential message to the donor for most of my life has been give and shut up. Um, but today’s donor wants to be heard. They want to be acknowledged. They will give MME. Or they will become more involved. It was Terry Axelrod, the founder of the Bena von model of fundraising that started to give me a hint that donors wanted to be engaged, and then the data bore that out. Um, I’ve started to take on clients who would tell me, Oh, we could never ask. Are our volunteers for money? I haven’t heard that question in the past five years or so. Ah, better set of problems, I think. I think people are more convinced that they realize their donors want to give and hello out there. If you think your dough. If you still think your donors, your volunteers going to No. Well, please evaluate that. Read my book and evaluate that because your volunteers want to give

[00:33:07.07] spk_1:
you, uh, one little quote, you say as your writing. You know, as you’re writing to your donors, um, tell the story as if the donor were sitting before you over a cup of coffee. Uh, you suggest you see their smile, speak their name? Um, you make it up, make it a conversation. You know, this idea of stilted language? Uh, you have to fill in 8.5 by 11 page sheet of paper. Maybe. Sometimes you do. But if you don’t need to, then don’t. Um, handwriting, handwriting and written solicitations could be probably more sincere than something you produce on word and feel constrained, compelled to Philip age around. So no, get close and talk to people like like you would like to be talked to.

[00:33:25.56] spk_0:
I learned from Tom Ahern about some of the nuances about making the donor the hero, and it actually influenced my book cover. You could see you know,

[00:33:26.88] spk_1:
Darcis holding listening marches, holding up his book cover. Okay,

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
going below, there’s a hook with a dollar sign going below the surface of the water Because the point is to rid to raise the big money you have, Teoh, think more deeply about fundraising and what’s motivating the donor. Um, but we start making the case right on the cover of a newsletter or a case for support. We recently did a case for support for an animal welfare agency where we put a picture of the Cubist cat on one case and the cute his dog on the other with their owners who had just adopted them holding them. But right underneath that we put the question, How can we ever say no? So we’re we’re saying to the donor,

[00:34:20.74] spk_1:
it wasn’t How can you How can you say no if you

[00:34:23.95] spk_0:
ever say no?

[00:34:24.74] spk_1:
Yeah, right. How can you say you ever seen get the you? You gotta get you with yours in there.

[00:34:28.90] spk_0:
That you in there?

[00:34:43.14] spk_1:
Okay, so I read the book you missed. You blew the Holt. Whole Point is, you gotta have the u in there. Not how can we get You are sorry. Um um

[00:34:44.44] spk_0:
you your it’s all about you.

[00:35:24.47] spk_1:
Yes, using yours. I know. Tom Ahern stresses that he even has a calculator on the Web somewhere. It might be a hearn dot com or something where you can put your text in and it’ll evaluate how many years you have versus how many wees or something like that, right? But I’m constantly I’m constantly rewriting, you know, the can we change the to you, the donor, Your you, your donors? I mean, as I am writing to clients instead of the donors, your donors, you’re talking now to the second person instead of the abstract third person, the donor that could be anybody’s donors. No, we’re talking about your donors, your donor. That’s just not not in the abstract. I think it bring. It makes it more concrete than using the site. That second person.

[00:35:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and it also it’s It’s not just a linguistic shift. There’s research science behind it. Psychology, science, psychological sciences behind it that the donors feel like Oh, he really is talking about me and and so we raise more money with that approach.

[00:35:54.39] spk_1:
By the way, did I did I mispronounce your name when I introduced you?

[00:35:59.14] spk_0:
I know. You

[00:36:00.34] spk_1:
know I didn’t I had hoped that I had met mispronounced your name because I had hoped that by now 6.5 years later you had changed the pronunciation of Panyu. Tony, why are you still defacing your beautiful Italian names with

[00:36:14.79] spk_0:
parents? It’s worse than that. The whole name on the bastard bastard birth certificate is Lorenzo Antonio Paige non. Tony?

[00:36:22.66] spk_1:
Yes, Panyu tony, why are you started

[00:36:25.28] spk_0:
the opera? You know

[00:36:26.63] spk_1:
I know you. You are in 2013. You mentioned your

[00:36:33.25] spk_0:
grandmother. Grandmothers? Uh uh. She loved the operating that she tell me that old time your name’s a little opera.

[00:37:18.63] spk_1:
I would rather you take the g out to make it pan, tony, or it switches to panini or something. Please. But you’re you’re killing the beautiful pronunciation. Panya non. I’ll try, tony. I promise to try. All right, it’s worth It’s worth the investment. It’s worth the investment in changing the pronunciation, not dispelling just a pronunciation. People will still be able to find you on the web. All right, um, you said you say all donors are major donors and following from that all gifts of major gifts. What? What? What is that to me? We know we’re stratify ing. We have our modest donors because we’re too afraid to call them small donors that we say their modest And then we have our mid level and major and then, you know, may be ultra. But you say all old owners are major donors.

[00:39:54.42] spk_0:
Yes, because nobody has to give a dime to you. Nobody has to give their hard earned money to you. Nobody has to on because of that, they all should be treated in a major way. Now, of course, in the systems of fundraising, we might have automation in place. Hope thoughtful automation for donors who are, you know, from $1 to say, $5000 for major donors or transformational donors at the higher levels. You know, we have a more personal touch. It’s expensive. Major gift officers who know what they’re doing are have come at a higher salary because their skills are honed over years and they know how to deeply listen and use the data to ask for transformational gifts, multiyear gifts, legacy gifts. Um, but, um but but I’m trying to convey that we shouldn’t take any dollar, no matter the size amount for granted that that they don’t have to give and people are giving, you know Jesus pointed out in Scripture. The widow’s mite was greater than the Faris ease giving because she gave from her heart and she gave from her want. And, um so I had to learn again. Just like with professional development. I had a learned this the hard way. My development I belly eight about donor giving less than I thought he he could have My development director quietly closed the door, sat down with that white flustered look on his face like Lawrence. Jesus, Mother God, you know, what am I gonna do with you? You’re supposed to be our leader. And he said to me lardons every gift is a major one and he didn’t have to give that gift. And that’s a real story. And I went silent and I thought about it. And I thought, You know, that’s That’s damn true. Yeah, eventually, that donor, because of the way my development director treated him so kingly. He did give at much higher levels later on. But nobody has to give us a dime.

[00:40:19.62] spk_1:
Generous would be proud of you. Still still quoting, still quoting scripture that influence that’s with you forever, I’m sure. Yeah. Uh, something else you. You, ah, seems provocative. That you devote a chapter to is, uh, revenue diversification. You you tell us it’s overrated. Flush that out. Would you?

[00:41:37.61] spk_0:
For smaller organizations, divert revenue diversification is really essential. I’m not naive about that, but it’s expensive to do well. Um, most smaller organizations barely have. Well, the profile most organizations is that they don’t even have a development office state. They have the program director and the executive director rights to grants or, um, manages the gala. They might bring in a gala event consultant, but, um, when when Stanford University did a study of think it was 130 major nonprofits who had gotten over $50 million annual revenues, they discovered that diversification of revenue went down. And that study was a seminal piece of research that changed our thinking about diversification. So as a non profit grows to a better set of problems, um, its revenue should stream should become deeper, not wider, and a

[00:41:38.56] spk_1:
few 1,000,000,000. What’s deeper in what’s most successful,

[00:43:00.34] spk_0:
that’s right and most lucrative. For example, Habitat for Humanity. They started with, um in kind donations as there biggest source of revenue that the stuff that they needed for the houses that they were building good stuff, not just, you know, poor quality stuff. But then they realized that the people who donated that stuff were willing to donate. And so they started an individual donor program that eventually grew as they did. Don’t a research to major major gift program, and they went deeper and deeper into that source of revenue individual giving they before monthly giving. They formed eventually on line giving. They formed legacy societies. So within each revenue stream, you can create enormous depth. And, ah, instead of expanding outside, could habitat taken government money is probably some of them eventually did in localities that where the local government said, Hey, we wanna help because this is part of our community development, a program. And so they got some

[00:43:46.04] spk_1:
time for our last break turned to communications. They’re former journalists, so you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. Plus, you want toe prepare, you got a plan to build media relationships. When all this noise subsides, there is a future after this. They know exactly what to do for you. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for fundraising for 01 This is also an example of where you need to invest in staff. You know, if you want. If you want to go deeper in the in the channel, the fundraising method that’s that’s most lucrative for you. You’re gonna have to do it with a professional who’s got an experience, got experience in that in that channel and maybe others as well. But it can’t continually be the executive director trying to deep in fundraising in the most look from the most lucrative source and manage the organization. Oversee the programs in short compliance. I mean, this is where you have to invest. If you want to be among those few charities that gets to the whatever 50 or $55 million level. You know it’s doable, but you need to invest in growth.

[00:44:58.44] spk_0:
When I last talked to you in 2013 our firm talked a good game about Prospect Research Service is, and we did. We did deliver some service is, but we got honest with ourselves that we had to invest. Seven years later, we have you know, a six person T and we do Don’t a research. Now we find I mean, we found 108,000 new donors. Value aligned donors for Lutheran Social Service is we found 8000 new donors for the food bank in New Jersey. Um, we found ah, 42 new board member candidates for ST Christopher’s Inn and Garrison, New York.

[00:45:15.86] spk_1:
I mean, our donor from in investing in Prospect Research.

[00:45:24.09] spk_0:
Yeah, and and also the field itself has matured and developed. And it’s not just about the data. It’s about using how to use the data off when you marry the data of vendors with a trained fundraiser. That’s where you have the alchemy

[00:45:37.49] spk_1:
and you have a whole. You have a chapter devoted to not underfunding advancement, development. It’s called development for a reason. You make the point. It needs to grow, and if you’re gonna grow it, you got to invest in it. So don’t under fund your development. Ah,

[00:46:02.77] spk_0:
and by the way, I just gave you the tip for my the book. The next book, How to Find New Donors, which will be out sometime in 2021.

[00:46:04.50] spk_1:
You’re doing a prospect research book.

[00:46:29.78] spk_0:
Yeah. Uh, interesting. You call it that? I’m not sure. It’s funny. Um, I I’m professionally, I’m a fundraiser. I’m not a prospect researcher. Yeah, I use the tools. I know it in good prospect researchers. Obviously, we have them here at the firm E. And I know I’m not one of them, but I’m a fund raiser who uses the data So that put the books about. It’s a nuance, maybe a distinction without a difference. But But there are very wonky. Very good prospect research books out there that I couldn’t possibly Right.

[00:46:54.18] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. But, um, I still have some other things I want to cover with you. We got, like, another 10 minutes or so left, but, uh, let me throw to you. What do you want to talk about from the book?

[00:47:08.48] spk_0:
Well, right off, I’d like Teoh, uh, invite the reader to to actually read it. I talked to a lot of fund raisers, and I’m not

[00:47:16.38] spk_1:
convinced. Sounds like that. I think that’s sound advice for a book. Ah, Book author? Yeah. Assumed my book, for God’s sake.

[00:47:26.48] spk_0:
Well, I actually learned this from a terrific fundraiser. Who headed up the Heyman Institute, Um, at New York University. Ah, Naomi Levine.

[00:47:32.24] spk_1:
Had I had her on the show years ago? Yes, I

[00:48:20.87] spk_0:
remember. Naomi, you know, kicked my butt around. Lawrence, you know, you have to read not just in our field, extensively. But you have to read in the field of economics in the field of sociology in the field of of, ah, science because the donors are expert in those fields. I remember going into a meeting with an engineer on a plan gift. And, um, he mentioned something that I had read because of Naomi suggestion about the field of of environmental engineering. And I said to him, You know, I know enough to be dangerous, but are you talking about, you know, corrosive engineering protection and his I split up? How the hell did you know that?

[00:48:24.77] spk_1:
You learned those words and friends. Corrosive engineering protection. And

[00:49:05.17] spk_0:
there’s affinity on this is our job. Is fundraising whites or amazing field? You? Never, if you’re bored, is a fundraiser. Holy cow. Your read my book and find out. You know, a way to become a non board. But my point, tony, is that so many fundraisers. Our stayed there. Kind of. They know what they know. Um, I could tell you at this time in my life more about what I don’t know about fund raising that then what I know about it and why I surround myself with good thinkers myself. And I’ve been told that this book and this is my second point is both helpful for somebody advanced in fundraising like yourself. And it’s also helpful for people who are new or mid career that it’s a very approachable book. Primarily because I tell stories that are based in reality. And I then give the more advanced theory behind it.

[00:49:32.27] spk_1:
Yeah, So I grab it. Is it is it You

[00:49:34.44] spk_0:
found that to be the case?

[00:49:46.87] spk_1:
It is approachable. Yeah. Um, it’s my turn again now. So you you have advice for ah CEO? Um, decision making and also CEO as fundraiser. So I want to put those two together and and explore what? What? Decisions about fundraising are appropriate at the CEO level.

[00:51:16.76] spk_0:
So, uh, knowing the plan and understanding the plan of how to move to a better set of problems, do you have the same fund raising dilemma year in and year out. That’s the CEO’s job to kick the boards, but and the the development teams. But ah ah, because so many fundraising programmes have the same problem year in and year out. That means it’s stuck and, um, and that’s primarily on the shoulders of the CEO. Uh, the underfunding of the development team that’s on the shoulders of the CEO. The CEO has to find the revenue to fund the capacity to pay for developed. Um, and I offer many on my blawg at lap of fundraising dot com. I offer you know, thousands of suggestions about how toe pay for fundraising, and, um so there’s two examples Ah, third example I’d give of the CEOs job and fundraising. Is it? They have to, um, boxed the ears or guide the boards in

[00:51:18.74] spk_1:
the stage box. Just 60 years, Yeah, box that years of war guide, okay

[00:51:24.20] spk_0:
or guide? That’s they would guide

[00:51:26.18] spk_1:
whose chooser is somewhere in that spectrum.

[00:51:59.21] spk_0:
Somewhere that spectrum. They have to guide the board’s way to think about fund raising because boards who know nothing about fundraising are sitting there in judgment of professional fund raisers who have you know, 25 years of experience. There’s, They wouldn’t do that to the program director. Some of them do. But that’s another set of problems. They wouldn’t. They generally don’t do it to their attorneys. They wouldn’t. They certainly don’t do it to their auditors. They feel free to do it to their fundraisers,

[00:52:07.34] spk_1:
things they would never do in their own business. They do, uh, routinely some boards, you know, to the CEO and the program staff of the board. Who’s the non profit, whose boards they said on. And you talk about a heavy lifting board gotta have a heavy lifting board.

[00:53:18.95] spk_0:
Yes, governance is a thing. Governance is not for every volunteer. Its governance is not just for, um, the person who likes your mission or whose son or daughter benefited from from your mission. Governance is a business proposition that the nonprofit sector has designed, Um, and it has roles and responsibilities for not just fugitive fiduciary roles, but for long range planning. It’s the job of the executive team to think about the next three years, but it’s the job of the board to think about the next 5 to 10 years. Yeah, and most boards never really think about the long term plan now, you know, planning in this day and age is is it is it anachronistic? I don’t think it is but a little bit old fashioned, but I think plans should be nimble and changed. But you should still have, Ah, a long range plan about what you want to look like in 5 to 10 years.

[00:54:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, that heavy lifting board and in terms of fundraising as well. And you make the point that campaigns could be a very good I very good vehicle for, ah recycling board or replacing board members that aren’t that aren’t heavy lifting. Maybe there’s an advisory council they can go on or some kind of America’s status so that they’re not embarrassed but still age. But But they’re not. But they’re not a fiduciary any longer. With those obligations and eso right, we have just like a minute or so left. Uh, leave us. Leave us with something, but do it concisely, please.

[00:55:46.67] spk_0:
Oh, we’re in the middle of as you and I record this were in the middle of the cove in 19 Pandemic. The nonprofits that are raising more money through this pandemic are the ones with a deep culture of philanthropy and that culture philanthropy is defined by resiliency. Resilience. Um, if you’re serious about the next pandemic or about your own viability in the future, the 23 chapters of this book well, deep in your culture of philanthropy so that you’re more prepared for the future. If you’re assessing yourself right now as that you were not ready for this pandemic, do not beat yourself up. But take it as a wake up call to start getting ready for the economic crisis that we’re going to be living through for the next couple of years, and for the very much needed reform of our health care system, so that the poor and uh, communities of color are better served than what we’re seeing in Cove in 19. And so that’s a real reason to read this right now. Tony, You and I have lived through many crisis is, and Cove in 19 certainly has its own characteristics that are unique. But, um, there are always crisis is that we face, and we have to be more resilient with a deeper culture of philanthropy, and fundraising for a one will help you get there.

[00:55:59.84] spk_1:
That’s the book fundraising for a one master classes in non profit fundraising that would make Peter Drucker proud. He’s Lawrence Ape Agnone lap.

[00:56:02.63] spk_0:
The

[00:56:02.74] spk_1:
company is labra lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Lawrence. Thank you very, very much. My pleasure.

[00:56:10.00] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you

[00:57:29.30] spk_1:
for sharing. Okay. Next week, more 20 and TC panel interview Greatness. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo creative producer is Clear My wrath. Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our guy. This music is by Scott’s time with me next week for not profit radio, big non profit ideas. 14 of their 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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Lisa Brauner: Reopening From Coronavirus
My guest is attorney Lisa Brauner. We see the faint light at the end of the tunnel. We’re slowly emerging as we knew we would. But these things must be done delicately. What do you plan ahead for? How do you keep employees safe and can they refuse to return to work? What are reasonable accommodations? Lisa has answers. Lisa has advice. Lisa is a partner at Perlman+Perlman law firm in New York City.

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.34] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:42.84] spk_2:
radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a short special episode of non profit radio to help you cope with the pandemic reopening from Corona virus. My guest is attorney Lisa Brunner. We see the faint light at the end of the tunnel were slowly emerging as we knew that we would. But these things must be done.

[00:00:44.94] spk_3:
Delicate, please.

[00:01:39.04] spk_2:
So, what do we, uh, what we planned for? That’s coming. How do you keep employees safe? And can they refuse to return to work? What are reasonable accommodations? Lisa has answers. Lisa has advice. Lisa is a partner at a prominent Perlman law firm in New York City, responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications um, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Thank you very much. Welcome back, Lisa.

[00:01:41.54] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:43.54] spk_2:
Alright. Thank you for doing another special episode with us. These are these are these are valuable for listeners. Thank you. You’re welcome. Everything okay? Looks ah. Looks bright and sunny in New York is it

[00:02:00.64] spk_0:
is right. Well, it was raining earlier, but looks like the being the son, maybe. Okay. Make its way through. Looks

[00:02:36.98] spk_2:
looks bright. We’ll call it bright and sunny. Okay. Even so, shining light on your beautiful artwork on your walls. Thank you. So you’ve been thinking a lot about what is ahead as states begin to ah, open up the reduced the restrictions on on work at home, our restrictions on work in the office requirements to work at home. It’s happening slowly. There’s, like, I don’t know, maybe half a dozen states or so, so far that if reduce the the restrictions on just on certain industries, So I don’t I don’t know if maybe, you know, Are there states yet that have office workers allowed back to go back that had restrictions before just on office work?

[00:02:49.54] spk_0:
Well, I mean, we hear about in certain states like Georgia that they’ve already started to reopen certain industries.

[00:03:04.44] spk_2:
Right? That’s just restaurants and dollars to point essential. You gotta have those but our people back in offices in Georgia.

[00:03:08.74] spk_0:
I don’t know that people are back in the offices.

[00:03:12.65] spk_2:
Yeah, so but it’s coming. It’s good

[00:03:14.38] spk_0:
calming you write.

[00:03:15.53] spk_2:
That was like

[00:04:23.24] spk_0:
the end of the tunnel on dhe estates air trying to use depending on the states in the measured approach or prioritising which businesses come back first. New York is already talking about the plan for which are the most essential businesses or industries with the least amount of risk, where they can start reopening construction and different and different things. So it’s it’s a kind of a faced approach. It sounds like it’s happening. In New York, for instance, the governor put in a 12 point plan of different things that he expects them would like to see happen. Ah, in order for the reopening to occur and specifically with respect to workplaces, at least in New York, and it may be may be different in different states. There’s an expectation in York that, uh, is part of this plan that employers are going to put into place implement the safety protocol for their

[00:04:37.24] spk_2:
I thought, This is This is one of things we need toe be planning ahead. So, you know, at this stage, we’re planning for returning. Um, you know, but there. I mean, there’s basics. Like, what’s the schedule gonna be? Who’s gonna come? Um, you know, walk us through some of that pre planning. But before we get to the

[00:07:41.34] spk_0:
sure exactly at this point, tony, employers should be pre planning for that day. Ah, and not not necessarily waiting to see what happens. They should be putting a plan in place, which involves things like who? Who is going to continue to work remotely? Who is gonna be actually in the office? How are we going to How are we gonna make that happen? And how we gonna ensure that employees are safe coming back? What could be looking at their finances? What is it that we can afford to do in terms of who we bring back our their employees? That we will not be able to continue employing that we may need to furlough. Who do we need on the ground? Are we going to need to cross train certain employees? So if there’s certain things that need to get done and the employees we need to do them. Can’t do everything. Mm. From home. Do we have other employees that are able to come in who can actually perform some of those functions? What do we need to do physically in our workplace to ensure that the workplace is is safe, for instance, Um, are we gonna have what we have? Sufficient? Will we have masks? Will we have gloves? Do we need to dio, Do we need to sanitize the workplace? In other words, that we’ve wiped down everything all the surfaces, computer keyboards and door knobs. What have we done to ensure to communicate to our employees that the works, the works space that you’re coming back to is actually is actually safe. So having a plan to communicate to employees about what’s been done in terms of safety precautions, considering what type of personal protective equipment or face coverings and things like that, the employer is gonna have figuring out whether they need to do some type of reconfiguration of the actual work space. So, for instance, it in workplaces where they might have more of an open plan where everybody’s together. Ah, what do we need to dio Teoh either reconfigure this space to make it safe so that we can still allow for social distancing. Do we need to put up plastic or plexi glass? But between the areas where employees are working, do we need to set up one way a one way hallway that, you know, this whole way? Everybody goes in this direction and the other hallway, Everybody comes in the opposite direction. In other words, that employers should be coming up with their post pandemic plan for how they’re going to logistically bring employees be back and who’s gonna come back. And also how how are we gonna bring employees back safely?

[00:08:12.17] spk_2:
Okay, that’s a ton of stuff to be thinking about. But you know, all good. So listeners will go back and start taking notes on, like, the 20 things that you just ticked off as a ZX items to be used to be thinking about, um, everybody talks about the PP do. Do employers have AH responsibility requirement or t provide? I don’t gloves and masks. Or is that is that governed by state law? Or just buy your own moral obligation that you feel what what what what guides them in making a decision like that?

[00:10:12.94] spk_0:
Mm. I mean, I think it’s I think it’s adhering to whatever the precautions are of the CDC and Osho, the Centers for Disease Control and on OSHA, Occupational Safety Ah, and Health Administration. In looking to those to that guidance and also any state and local guidance as to whether their directives right now, perhaps with the exception of the essential workers, it’s really being left to the employers to for the most part, unless there’s a state or local directive to do it, it’s being left to employers to make those decisions. But certainly if the CDC is advising that individuals wear face coverings in instances where they can’t social distance, it would be it would behoove an employer to say, You know, we follow the directives of the seedy city. Ah, in protecting our employees is an under under OSHA. Under the Occupational Safety and Health Act, employers have to maintain a workplace that’s free of any hazards. Essentially, they have a duty to to do that, too. Keep the employees safe, you know, pre from hazard. So in the workplace. So so that would extend Teoh. I mean, recommendation would be that employers do provide face coverings to their employees. And and also they may even consider having face coverings available to anyone who’s visiting the workplace. If they have something cups, someone coming on site, who’s gonna be cleaning the work area clients? Anyone who’s going to be coming into the workplace because those individuals could be, if they’re asymptomatic could be infecting one of the employees. So

[00:10:18.74] spk_2:
that would

[00:10:19.09] spk_0:
be, well, advice to do that.

[00:10:49.09] spk_2:
That brings up another issue about people coming to your office, those you’re serving or maybe just like you said. Maybe they’re just the office cleaners or just people routinely come in. You know the mail gets delivered. Ups comes, you know, et cetera. How do you treat people? Coming to your office is not just what do you expect of them? It’s not just what do you expect of employees and what you gonna do for employees but visitors to the office or your other facilities as well? You know, non profits may very well not even now have a second facility. It’s not in office, but it’s where it’s where they serve meals or serve clients in some other way. Those people have to be accommodated.

[00:11:45.08] spk_0:
Yes. So I mean, all those things there such excellent points and which really go to the point of pre planning now Because Because employers can’t they can’t just show up on the first day of work and say, Okay, now we’re you know, now we’re back to work. Ah, we’re going to do the best we can. They really have to plan out in advance. You know what is social distancing gonna look like And our work space. And it’s gonna be different for every non profit. Like in some instances, it could be, you know, setting something up like we see when we go into when we go into a pharmacy or when we go into a supermarket where they’ve actually designated, you know, spots for people who are waiting on line to understand their six feet between you

[00:11:51.05] spk_2:
because it was sitting on the floor.

[00:12:36.34] spk_0:
Exactly. So depending on the non profit, so I’m not gonna be appropriate in every setting, but depending on the non profit and what, who their servicing and what the layout of their workspaces, it’s gonna dictate what it is they need to dio from a social distancing perspective to keep six feet between people, but they have to. Employers should be thinking now, what is it based on who were serving on what we’re doing? And what are configuration is what kinds of changes do we need to make right now to ensure that our employees feel safe, that that the people that we serve that are coming to our work site also feel safe. Uh, you know that that they’re not going to get infected. So eso the pre planning is is, I think, crucial right now.

[00:12:44.75] spk_2:
Otherwise, you just compounding the crisis. If you’re leaving this until the last minute are you know, the week before or something. You know, it’s not gonna be enough time to look at all the guidance because so you said, CDC, OSHA, and you also have to look to the your state whatever state guidance there may be. And even potentially, your city could have guidelines around requirements for businesses.

[00:14:00.84] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely on social distancing. But here’s some other things that I wanted to mention that employers could think about. Two. Is there as they’re planning? Um, I mean, the goal is to to continue the social distancing for now until we know that the threat is over, and so they could consider things like staggering of start times that employees start work staggering in the end times, particularly where people are in larger urban areas. And they may be Trent, you know, traveling by bus or subway where they’re gonna be congregated with a lot of people. And so to reduce that from happening. If employers consider maybe staggering the time that an employee comes to work to avoid Rush Hour or to stagger the time that the employee is going home from work to avoid rush hour, that could be a possibility or changing the day. So we’re

[00:14:16.45] spk_2:
thinking maybe I could get a work day that’s like 10 to 2. Can I squeeze Shoot 10 and leave around two, or maybe to 30 with, and I’ll reduce my lunch to an hour and 15 minutes from an hour and 1/2 That that that is not considered a reasonable accommodation?

[00:14:27.64] spk_0:
Well, a reasonable combination isn’t another context.

[00:14:43.54] spk_2:
I know. Yeah, no, I’m being unreasonable a za potential. But I could never be an employee because that, you know, there are a lot of reasons I couldn’t work for um, so, yeah, I mean, even staggering weeks, maybe. Maybe right 11 team works off site for a week and then comes into the office and the other team, and they rotate it, rotate around that way

[00:15:18.91] spk_0:
absolutely. Or having someone working on a weekend day as opposed to a weekday as a substitute, as a way to to stagger, first of all, so that you are helping the employees reduce the risk if they’re gonna be traveling by mass transit or in a large group. Secondly, er, to reduce the number of people just in the office together at one time. So

[00:15:34.93] spk_2:
there’s a potential, you know, in being flexible like this, there’s a potential to actually, you know, toe help families who, you know, maybe it’s ah, it’s a couple. And it helps them that one of them works on a Saturday or that one of them has, you know, unusual hours tend to six or something. Maybe that helps the family. And so you can build f have that flexibility and also be good to your employees at the same time.

[00:16:17.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say one of the kind of key takeaways from all of this is employers should be flexible in the solutions that they are coming up within this time. That’s so unprecedented, but should should just be flexible on the possibilities of what exactly they can provide and what they can offer in terms of bringing the workers back to work and doing it in a way, that’s that’s Ah, that’s safe. Um, so yeah, well,

[00:16:20.11] spk_2:
I was gonna turn Teoh reasonable accommodations, which I perverted a couple of minutes ago. But, um what what do we need to be thinking about that? What does that phrase mean? And how does it apply here?

[00:22:28.34] spk_0:
So reasonable accommodations. So under the law, employers have a reasonable have a duty to reasonably accommodate employees for because they have a disability for religious practices. Ah, in New York for pregnancy, childbirth and related medical conditions. And so the types of things that one needs to reasonably accommodate an employee for may depend import on your jurisdiction and what that jurisdiction recognizes as being entitled to a reasonable accommodation. But for employers who have 15 or more employees, they are covered under a federal law called the Americans with Disabilities Act. And they have a legal obligation to reasonably accommodate employees who have a disability so that that an employee can perform the essential functions of their job. Unless doing that, we would pose an undue hardship on the organization. So how that looks here in in this cove, it situation is if you have somebody who has a disability, they may set a. My doctor says that I need to continue working from home. Ah, nde working from home, maybe a reasonable accommodation. And for that person, it’s also going to be more difficult for employers to say that doing so would pose an undue hardship in view of the fact that so many people have been working from home because of the situation. So somebody has disability, uh, in New York, for instance, if there pregnant or because of childbirth related medical conditions, they may need to. It may be that they that they need to work from continuing work from home is a reasonable accommodation that could be an example working from home or leave of absence or things like that. So where it gets where it now gets trickier, here is the situation where somebody has an underlying condition. Well, let me first say that the E O. C. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which is the federal agency that enforces the A d. A. Has has not said that Cove in 19 is a disability, said it may be good state and city and a human rights laws like New York City. Human rights laws have said that, yes, this this, uh, is a disability and those laws, this is one of most important things is that even if there’s not a requirement into the federal law, state and city laws maybe much more liberal and protective of employees, then what What the a d a provides. So even if a certain reasonable accommodation may not be required under federal law, it may be required under state and sitting law. And so that brings me to the next point about the sister of reasonable accommodations. And that is one of the wrinkles here. Interesting aspects is that we know that people with certain underlying conditions are more susceptible to contracting the virus, right? So individuals who have diabetes, uh, who have, uh, who have respiratory ailments who have auto immune honestly, maybe may be more vulnerable, uh, or susceptible and so So the question comes up. What about somebody who has an underlying health condition? Um, you know, can they, uh, can they refused to come to work, right? I mean, that’s one of the questions, and it’s an open question. I think employers, they’re gonna have to they’re gonna have to consult with legal counsel about what the state and local laws are with respect to that. Um, but the person has an underlying condition like, for instance, in New York City, New York City just issued guidance. Ah, New York City’s Commission on Human Rights just and that’s the agency that enforces the New York City Human rights Law. They just issued guidance around this issue of underlying conditions that employers may need to reasonably accommodate ah, individuals who have an underlying condition in New York City. And it could be in other jurisdictions to having an association with somebody who has a disability is illegal protection. So let’s say an employee has a family member who has a disability that employer can’t discriminate against, or treat that employees less favourably simply because that person has an association with a person with a disability. So depending on the state and city jurisdictions. There could be greater protections for individuals, depending on whether someone there associated with has a disability, whether the employees themselves has an underlying condition. When that employee says to the employer, I want to continue working from home or I need to take time off or something or something to that effect. So it’s kind of it. It’s another aspect of this that employers need to be thinking about. Not just what is the federal Lost A but one of the state and local law say about how I need to accommodate this person and whether they can refused to come to work because of ah, of the of the fear of, uh, of contracting the virus and they might be entitled to. I’m sorry, Go ahead.

[00:22:48.84] spk_2:
What about if it’s just a fear? But there isn’t un underlying, um, underlying diagnosis that makes them more vulnerable either themselves or someone there associated with suppose. It’s just a generalized fear of traveling and returning to work without any underlying medical issue.

[00:25:14.47] spk_0:
Generally, they wouldn’t be able to refuse unless there is Yeah, generally, I mean, once the stay at home order has lifted. Ah, and e No employers are clear to reopen their workspaces. Someone’s general fear isn’t gonna be illegal. Generally gonna be illegal. Ah, excuse provided legal excuse from them not to return to work. I mean, if they if they’re entitled to paid sick leave or paid extended family leave for one of the reasons under the families first grown of his response act, That’s one thing. Generalized Fear, uh, is not going to give them a legal claim for refusing to come back to work. That said, uh, to the extent that employers can reassure their employees as to number one, the efforts of the employers taken in the workplace, them safe. I’ve heard situations of employers who they hire a private van or bust or something where they’re going to bring employees into work to avoid having to deal with mass transit. So employers can be creative and ways in which they can support their employees on reassure the employees about the safety of both being at the workplace and coming to the workplace and being flexible and accommodating, even when there may not be a legal obligation to do so. But for reasons of employee morale and motivating employees finding creative and flexible ways to support employees coming back to the workplace. You know, alternative ways for them to get to work. Ah, and reassuring them that we’re providing face coverings and and gloves so that you feel safe when you’re here. We have protocols for people who are visiting the workplace so that we know you know, that they’re taking precautions when they’re gonna be interacting with you as an employee. Those things go a long way for employees to feel reassured that they that they’re gonna be that their safety concerns are being addressed.

[00:26:18.91] spk_2:
A lot of a lot of what you’re suggesting today is consistent with what you said in the very first. You and I did the very first special episode together, which was probably five weeks or so ago when when we were on the other. We’re talking about other things, just planning for working at home, and a lot of your advice there was be flexible. Um, be thinking ahead. What’s it gonna look like when you, when your workforce is distributed back to home, are after their homes communicate? That was a central message then, and it still is, and this is exactly what you’re saying. Now, you know, communicate with your employees about what you’ve done about what you’re going to do, um, to help them just be reassured. So I mean, the details are different because we’re going from home to back to the office is But your overall messages about be flexible, communicate, um, have some empathy. You know, those air plan ahead. Those are the same things you were saying five weeks ago about the opposite situation.

[00:28:13.44] spk_0:
We are on the other side. It’s true. But those those values and those tools I think are the same because those are the things that give employees reassurance that everything gonna be okay on dhe on dhe. People may have fear about coming back to the office coming into the office again. So to the extent those things can be done, you know they should be done on employers, you know, because we’re in the pandemic. They have also some more flexibility in terms of certain things that otherwise might not be able to do under the Americans with Disabilities Act like taking employees temperatures, although not everybody who has Cove in 19 has a fever, but employers can do that? They can scream. Okay. They can. They can. They can ask employees whether they have the, you know, particular symptoms that have been identified specifically with covert 19. Uh, they can insist that employees self report to them. If those employees start exhibiting any of those symptoms to let them know, uh, employers could do that. Now, of course, they have to keep any any medical information, which includes the results of temperatures and things like that. If they were to do that, they have a legal obligation to keep that information confidential. So whether they decide they’re gonna take the temperatures and record those temperatures or they decide, we’re only gonna look to see if somebody is above a certain threshold. And we’re only going to indicate on a form that they were either below or above the threshold. They can make those determinations themselves about how they they want to administer it. But whatever the results are, they must keep that information confidential. Um,

[00:28:29.31] spk_2:
yeah, I want todo Did you have more than you wanted to say on that? Uh, I thought that what employers? How much further? Employers can go now with questions. And then you know, you still got to or cause I was gonna ask, I was gonna start asking something else, but

[00:28:34.19] spk_0:
I’m sure I know. Go ahead. OK,

[00:28:35.88] spk_2:
OK. The, um

[00:28:37.74] spk_0:
what do you do

[00:28:51.64] spk_2:
in the case where someone is, um, is happier on unemployment because, you know, there’s, ah, there’s that federal bump of $600 a week. Um, plus, whatever the state is paying unemployment benefits, Um, what if you have You just have a recalcitrant employees who is happier receiving the unemployment than then they would be going back to

[00:29:35.05] spk_0:
work. So that’s an excellent question and something that we actually see. And I think first of all, the bump ends on July 31st. That’s the first thing the $600 additional, Uh, so that’s the first thing that the second thing is typically to be eligible for unemployment insurance. The person has to be ready, willing and able toe work. And if they’re being offered a job back, they may be in a situation where they end up being disqualified from unemployment insurance.

[00:29:40.28] spk_2:
You have to certify right that you, I guess, includes that you turned down employment. If you did right, I don’t have to certify. I mean, I know in North Carolina, you have to certify each week it’s probably routine, uh, about white Look for a job, you know, things like that. So it just if you turned down your existing employers offer of returning to work, Um, that’s that would disqualify you for unemployment.

[00:30:15.76] spk_0:
They may. They may be depending on the state deemed ineligible to continue receiving unemployment. If they were then offered hope so. Yes. Oh,

[00:30:19.64] spk_2:
I’m happy here.

[00:30:21.24] spk_0:
It is this way until

[00:30:35.64] spk_2:
July 31st. I’m very content right here. Right. OK, so there’s a mechanism for dealing with that on the on the unemployment insurance state level. Yeah, hopefully. OK, alright. We could dismiss that hypothetic. But you said you ve seen that, or you’ve heard it already.

[00:30:41.64] spk_0:
They were because they’re making more money at this point. So it

[00:30:45.27] spk_2:
was a purely hypothetical. You’ve heard

[00:30:47.20] spk_0:
I exactly. Yeah.

[00:31:24.46] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Well, not all employees air lazy and not all employers or scruple. Unscrupulous. So, you know, make that z ensure we, uh, fair to both sides. Um, And on this, by the same token, there’s enough blame to go around for everybody. Um So what do we have? Toe? You know, you’ve talked about so many different things. Do we have to have written policies about You know what the expectations are gonna be when you return? We’re gonna be standing for fever. Will be issuing PPS. Um, here’s our policy for visitors to the office. Now you need to comply with this. If you see a visitor, you welcome a visitor. Do there’s always need to be in writing.

[00:34:17.69] spk_0:
Um, not everything needs to be in writing, but certain things should be in writing so that everybody is on the same page. I think I think employers can communicate just again. It depends on the size of the employer as well. In terms of whether something will be in writing or not. I think that you know more long term, longer term policies, uh, and protocols. I mean, you could have you number one. If you do have people continuing to work remotely, definitely want to have a policy on that. You want to have an agreement with that employee so everybody understands what is being expected. What? The terms are what you’re expecting with respect to employees to record their time for those that air covered by the overtime pay laws. You want to make sure that everybody understands about the importance of confidentiality and protecting the data security and and all that for employees in accounting to work remotely for paid sick leave on pay, extended paid family leave under the families First Law. You certainly want to have policies addressing those and the interplay with your other paid time off policies for absolutely for protocols on visitors to the workplace and things like that. Uh, depending on the size of the organization, you you will. You would want to have a policy addressing that particularly things are now changed in terms of how you’re gonna be interacting with visitors to the workplace, does it all the things that you would want to to have, uh, you would want to have policies on for sure. Andi would also want to train your managers and your employees about what these new policies are. So have a chance to address questions, but particularly the managers who were gonna be enforcing these policies. I mean, it’s ultimately in many cases, gonna be a to the managers who will be enforcing the social distancing who will be addressing, you know, safety concerns. Who will be, um, who will also be may be involved in decisions about who’s coming back into the workplace and who’s not. And you want to be careful about that as well that there isn’t, uh, discrimination happening either. You know, people are paying, being desperately treated or you have some type of neutral policy that’s disproportionately impacting older people. Pregnant women, etcetera. And also there’s been a noted increase in in bias against Asians, Um, during this pandemic, um, both in the workplace and outside the workplace.

[00:34:23.65] spk_2:
We talked about that five weeks ago.

[00:34:25.16] spk_0:
We did so

[00:34:26.40] spk_2:
the possibility of that. Yeah,

[00:34:55.34] spk_0:
exactly. So it’s It’s really important that employers are reminding all their employees about their policies, prohibiting discrimination and doing any supplemental training that they feel is necessary to ensure that there aren’t derogatory comments. Remarks directed at Asians Has everyone returns to the workplace. So increased training. I would say a lot of

[00:35:02.56] spk_2:
love can be done in advance. You can be absolutely obviously developing the policies, but also training about the policy discussing them before the first day back.

[00:35:08.51] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, could be doing that now.

[00:35:13.69] spk_2:
So planning, developing and communicating than training that stuff could all be done in advance. Virtually

[00:36:00.88] spk_0:
yes, yeah, all that could be done. So and also just you know what the employers planning to do exactly. From a safety perspective, you know that they’re adhering to the CDC protocols and directives and what OSHA is recommending and just reassuring their employees about what they’re doing to keep them safe on dhe and also what the mechanism is for employees to bring forth any issues. Like if an employee in a particular work site feels that their manager hasn’t been, Ah hasn’t been acting consistently with what the organization says it’s being done or that there isn’t social distancing happening or the people they feel. The people aren’t taking precautions to keep them safe. Employers want to make sure that they hear from those employees so that it can be addressed, so they want to make sure they communicate whatever the mechanism is for employees to to bring those issues forward.

[00:36:38.37] spk_2:
Okay, Lisa, I think that’s pretty comprehensive. That’s enormously comprehensive. Um, I mean, I was like my takeaways are planned. Be flexible, communicate train, You know, on all these dozens of different things that we talked about. What? That’s that’s what I That’s what I’m thinking. Like in the end. What do you want to leave people

[00:37:51.63] spk_0:
with? I think those air I think those air perfect takeaways. Actually, all of those things be flexible in solution plan. Now for what reopening is gonna look like whose whose ableto continue to work from home. Who on Who needs to come back to the office? Are we being Are we making these decisions for lit? Legitimate, non just discriminatory business reasons. Is it gonna have a disparate impact on a particular group? Older people pregnant, you know, take a look at your decisions and what the impact potentially could be, uh, or will bay in making your decisions plan and, uh, and and the and be flexible in your in your solutions on a train train your employees train your managers to make sure that they’re following the protocols that you’ve put in place and that they have awaited to raise any grievances or complaints or concerns eso that those get can get addressed.

[00:37:57.33] spk_2:
Okay, Incredibly comprehensive. Thank you very much. Lisa,

[00:38:01.00] spk_0:
you’re very welcome. My pleasure, tony.

[00:38:31.86] spk_2:
Thanks for doing it responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, P. R and Media for non profits, Your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot CEO. Creative producer

[00:38:47.11] spk_1:
is My Half Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy. His music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Many thanks to Susan and Mark for helping get this special episode out very quickly with me next time for non radio, big,

[00:38:49.86] spk_2:
non profit ideas for the other 90

[00:38:53.74] spk_1:
5% go out and be great.