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Nonprofit Radio for November 22, 2019: Recruiting Your Next CEO

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Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO
“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Author Dennis Miller walks us through. (Originally aired 12/22/17)

 

 

 

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[00:01:52.10] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with extra fee if you turn to my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next CEO as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer. End quote. So starts the book. A Guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO. Author Dennis Miller walks us through that originally aired on December 22nd 2017 on tony Stake to Last Call for Innovators were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Let’s get started with recruiting your next CEO. I’m glad that I can welcome Dennis Miller back then A C. Miller. He’s a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than 35 years experience working with non profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s managing director of the nonprofit Search Group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, His Fifth, is a guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO, the Executive Search Handbook for non profit Boards. You’ll find Dennis and his book at Dennis c. Miller dot com. He’s at Dennis C. Miller, and I’m very glad that his book brings him back to non profit radio. Welcome back, Dennis C. Miller.

[00:02:04.96] spk_0:
Happy to be back, tony.

[00:02:07.65] spk_3:
Well happen years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you, what is the sea for? In Dennis c miller dot

[00:02:16.33] spk_5:
com and

[00:02:19.24] spk_0:
Charles my father’s names. So many Dennis mellows and grammar school in high school we put in and I’m very proud to be

[00:02:26.45] spk_3:
Charles. All right. You don’t mind if I don’t call you Dennis C. Miller the whole hour, though

[00:02:29.68] spk_5:
I just call

[00:02:30.56] spk_0:
me dad. You’re like,

[00:02:33.46] spk_3:
OK, now, Dennis, we have to be. And it has to be anymore. Denigrating the dentist. Venice. Fine. Now you’re by phone. You’re in. You’re in Los Angeles. Is that right?

[00:02:41.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m actually in the Los Angeles area of isn’t That’s a business appear this week. And now we’re spending time my wife and I with our two sons and their families and grandson out here in Los Angeles and heading up to Santa Monica, Santa Monica Pier right after the show. So

[00:03:03.90] spk_3:
All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want, take off now, we could just bag the whole thing. You need to go. Public transportation is gonna leave in five minutes or something, or you’re OK.

[00:03:08.12] spk_5:
Oh, you’re okay for the

[00:03:37.83] spk_3:
hour. Okay, now, remember the last time you were here, you almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. You’re you’re ah. Um, your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You need a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to Los Angeles, And this way you can call him by phone. Okay? You don’t worry about running running to the studio, okay? Okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what I was saying? No salmon. Every little word

[00:03:40.59] spk_5:
had a regular. You may have.

[00:03:41.29] spk_3:
No, you did. You had a high. You definitely had a heart, a heart because your face was red. All right, Um, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome?

[00:04:38.17] spk_0:
Well, think about it that there’s probably over a 1,000,000 more. There’s more than a 1,000,000 non profit around the country and with the number of people that are dissipate to retire over the next five plus years on any research a staggering, sometimes closing 75% the the vast majority of people went into the non public sector, and leadership positions were baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the community. So there’s a lot of retirement going on, and the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next CEO. And on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing. So it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit in. Actually, that’s why I wrote the book

[00:04:44.83] spk_3:
OK, 75% turnover in the next 10 years we’re gonna have,

[00:04:54.41] spk_0:
I’d probably less. I mean, it’s It’s quite a bit if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, you know, it’s now 2017 and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needing.

[00:05:18.54] spk_3:
One of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hire a such consultant. Now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book, you’re biased. But can you weigh the pros and cons for us?

[00:05:23.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Listen, um, I’m biased. Certainly if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, I think the book will help them with that.

[00:05:30.04] spk_5:
Uh, sure you want

[00:06:28.17] spk_0:
to go in alone Is this year you have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s gonna be needed for the board members to not only identify the profile of the next candidate but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved. I lay out those steps in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures, that they’re gonna be pain and most trees probably in the area of someplace between 20 to 35%. All cases, 25 that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet, so you wanna have an expertise. There’s like anything else you need a lawyer of financial account. You’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own. And the other aspect, tony, for people who want to go about on their own, is by just posting sort of ads and social media, whatever. You’re gonna only get two people that are looking for a job and you don’t know either how good they are, how well performing they are if they’re happy a search from is gonna recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What? I have

[00:06:46.44] spk_3:
those percentages that you quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is

[00:06:52.11] spk_5:
that yes.

[00:06:59.72] spk_0:
So someone makes ah a position whether the CEO, our CFO or development unable to save the position was 100,000

[00:07:01.00] spk_5:
dollars. You

[00:07:01.95] spk_0:
know, the average three is gonna be $25,000. But this day, five years, it’s $5000 a year, which comes out to about $100 a week or 20 hours of any. And you know, the thing about it’s probably the smartest investments that aboard wouldn’t want to make.

[00:07:23.99] spk_5:
Okay, Noah, particularly you get the right portion. Okay? And I

[00:07:24.54] spk_3:
guess the main advantage of going in on your own is you’re saving that fee.

[00:07:28.54] spk_0:
Well, you saving the feeble you also, you better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna

[00:07:33.84] spk_5:
happen. That

[00:07:34.43] spk_0:
so that you poisoned cons here. But most most really good organizations will use a search firm for certain keys positions.

[00:07:45.03] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before Ah, first break, Dennis. Oh, let’s just identify that this CEO change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so. This could be an opportunity. A great opportunity.

[00:08:30.56] spk_0:
What? How you look at him and I’m We’re doing a search right now. When we’ve got the finalists. Been seen by the search committee and beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm and, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from not a crisis to. This is a phenomenal opportunity to not just take it, get a new leader, but to have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while or fairly new. It’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So what if the glass is half full? It’s I look at it is very exciting time when organization most clients feel the same way,

[00:09:30.24] spk_3:
all right, and we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this. Right now, it’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. If that kind of C p. A. Could be valuable for you. Your non profit. Then check out wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the, uh We got some live listener love. Let’s do it good. We do. And we’ve got Seoul. South Korea s o. I gotta tell you, soul. So, uh, so consistent. Such loyal listeners in Seoul, South Korea On your HASA an io io comes a ham nida, which does not

[00:09:30.77] spk_4:
mean live. Listen, love out to you, but I’m

[00:10:47.14] spk_3:
grateful Soul always with us. Thank you. Um, Victoria that they can. Krista In Brazil, there will be a brain a star this on da lively love Love out to, uh, Brazil. Thank you for being with us. Ashburn, Virginia Tampa, Florida, New York, New York and, uh oh, another South Korea Chung Wan The same greeting goes to Chung Wan annual Hasso come So ham Nida. Glad you’re with us. I love it and they’ll be more, but I felt like doing the live love earlier today. And the podcast Pleasantries. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for being a podcast listener of non profit radio. I’m glad that we fit into your podcast listening wherever it is and whenever it is pleasantries to the podcast listeners, Let’s go back to recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book recruiting, Ah, guide to recruiting your next CEO and Dennis C. Miller. So let’s talk about that. That possibility for assessment you Ah, you say that you might, uh, considered doing strategic planning, I guess, if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next CEO

[00:12:12.61] spk_0:
Yeah, well, the you know the question always is You know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do you hire a CEO or do you hire or chief development officer before you have a plan and and, uh, kind of it’s up. It’s up to decline the organization, but give me a couple examples whites sort of better to at least an idea of where you want to go on what you want to achieve. So let’s say you wanted to. You go out and hire a CEO, hoping that they will build your plan and let some party. A plan is to be more involved in philanthropy. More involved in the cultivating. So seeing donors, what if that seal he just hired doesn’t have that experience? Well, now you’re stuck. So what if your need is to grow your board and the new CEO? Yes. Sorry doesn’t have that. So one of the things that I recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan. But certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision. Where you headed. Will you want ahead? What? Some of the big strategic goals you have? Um, what things that you need to get done. And then, obviously it’s much easier than to identify the the characteristics of the qualities and experience of the CEO. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for you organization. So that’s why it’s important to take a look at kind of way. You want to go before

[00:12:21.57] spk_3:
you say that If you’re not gonna do a full full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are.

[00:12:45.52] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are some people that don’t do a full blown strategic plan. I think that you could do that, but I think more importantly, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life cycle as an organization and as a board. Um And then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of, Well, you’re at that helps us or dramatically beginning the on boarding closet with your next CEO. So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind. So I do think that you wanna have and I point this out in the book. You want to have a sense of your strategic vision where you’re heading and pick up some of the key goals were having Yes. So when you’re interviewing came that you want to make sure their line with those gold here and it makes much smoother transition,

[00:13:24.42] spk_3:
some of the goals you lay out besides mission envision our fundraising and development. You know what you wanna do around that? You’re bored CEO relationship? Your programs and service is andi Course. You know, the book explains what goes into detail each of those, but, um,

[00:13:31.78] spk_5:
I had a couple of

[00:13:45.44] spk_0:
it. Certainly, you know, you walk additional capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have, Ah, plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you? Border. You building the right board? Are you branding your organization and communicating that the impact you’re having? It’s important things today, So there’s a lot of, ah, strategic goals that one should be having with this pauses. And, uh, you want to get a sort of buying from your board and have the new CEO committed help implement this employee.

[00:14:33.50] spk_3:
And okay, so this new CEO is gonna have need to have some skills, and you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing CEO are. We want to be thinking beyond that. I mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is gonna do is help you look forward, not current. You know you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current CEO’s talents, but you want to build on those for the for the future, and you identify a whole bunch of potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit relationship builder, et cetera. But you wanna be going beyond the current.

[00:15:37.66] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s easy question when you have someone you know, Uh, you know, what kind of ah kind of deal are you looking for? And that the person who’s been in the job for the past 10 50 years for name is Surely people would be like someone like Charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that your previous CEO had may be silly, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that I have in the book in another books. In my work, I D’oh tony, is the idea of today’s competencies were, uh, executive leadership, non public sector, dramatically different than they were 5 10 years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past, you know, aboard, we’re looking for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relationship in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out and get a grant. Though their skills are still important. Today they look for more than just kills but compensation traits such as they want a visionary thinkers today, when the House, the CEO or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for CEOs to create their own vision

[00:15:55.82] spk_5:
cream organization.

[00:16:34.49] spk_0:
I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of creative vision number two. Certainly people want the idea of relationship. Will the building relationships outside inside the organization, someone who’s a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is important, ships that you need not just managed and when you got So is a whole series of conferences that identify in the book, including, you know, being a collaborative non about how big of a budget you have in control. It’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass is out there for CEOs and executives, but I use the term some of the CEO jacket director do all the time.

[00:17:04.11] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s fair. That’s fair Fares. Similarities. Yeah, of course. Um, I did have a guest years ago. Uh, Eugene Fram he was a professor at I think he was a university of Rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the CEO. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and CEO. That chief executive makes it less likely doesn’t make no guarantee. But let’s like that. Board members will get involved in the nitty gritty, the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging a CEO versus an executive director. I did you give any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one over the other

[00:17:40.10] spk_0:
radio. You know, tony, the point you’re raises a really good one, and I do have a pilot in the book of my work. But I do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer, um, the more contemporary title is board, ship or support president. What you kind of the past is, um, it may just be words, but I think they have a lot of

[00:17:42.99] spk_5:
connotations. They do find themselves.

[00:17:53.44] spk_0:
I’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top lay personal pipe a person should be the president CEO, and I think that was profit last year right there. When you’re out there with donors. So it’s more than just an executive director, um, overseeing the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen. I do. I do before the word CEO

[00:18:07.92] spk_3:
on and also executive director. I mean, that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non profit term

[00:18:13.17] spk_5:
way. Want to think that

[00:18:15.38] spk_3:
running like businesses run this thing like a business happens to be a nonprofit corporation?

[00:18:19.26] spk_5:
But don’t tell

[00:18:22.79] spk_0:
mother interviews with you. It’s came up the term, you know, non properties. You tax

[00:18:26.85] spk_5:
that business

[00:18:29.26] spk_0:
plans. I think it’s important that today’s title be CEO. I just really think that’s important Title that have

[00:18:38.81] spk_3:
Let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing.

[00:20:03.91] spk_0:
Well, clearly, I think the this you know that in terms of size of the dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on this? It’s absolutely who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experience with search, maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good. That’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of 12 to 15 people, you may want a search committee of maybe five, maybe seven maximum. But I’ve seen larger or smaller, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two be tremendous amount of time commitment. So the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be an involvement here in some time. And then obviously the key part of that will be who will be your share of the search committee. In some cases, it’s a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, lot of people ask me all the time would it be okay tohave the form of a former board chair, a strip search committee? And I would say, Maybe I would say, maybe on Lee, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for

[00:20:09.73] spk_5:
the future, not so much because

[00:20:10.19] spk_0:
they won’t know exactly what they’re looking for.

[00:20:12.06] spk_5:
You all right?

[00:20:21.88] spk_0:
This is committee has got to be a forward, approaching organization, afford poaching committee. I think that’s kind of that’s something that I would be looking for a nose of membership.

[00:20:25.04] spk_3:
What about an employee putting one on one employee on the committee?

[00:20:28.94] spk_0:
I don’t think that’s a good idea. Actually, I think it’s a bad

[00:20:32.91] spk_5:
idea.

[00:20:33.45] spk_0:
Come out Whiter Bay and say not give example.

[00:20:36.04] spk_5:
Okay,

[00:21:21.00] spk_0:
Uh, I’ve had people wondering to put the, you know, you know, the current CEO on the search committee, and I The answer is no. Then Walvis of the current CEO, Timmy, and help in the search committee and the consultant, or either inside or outside of what a search committee helped develop aspects of the position profit. What will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next CEO? But the board hires and fires a CEO. It’s also very uncomfortable for a current CEO to be on the search committee. I had a case where, um, it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that I helped with succession planning in. They had an internal candidate for the position, and when the search committee as this person, what changes would you make? She’s very awkward to be talking about the changes you want to make with

[00:21:29.27] spk_5:
us. Of course. Right

[00:21:43.45] spk_0:
eye. But now there’s times when you get there, some people that have their VP of HR on the search committee of the knee that lays on. But remember, people, it’s not a good idea. Have staff. It’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his board Members of Donald.

[00:21:49.42] spk_3:
Okay, predominately. And then you said, maybe a volunteer,

[00:21:53.09] spk_0:
if you need expertise. I mean, if you know, if you’re going to not have a search committee and may Sometimes people can hire a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But I think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that’s happened things, so

[00:22:11.40] spk_5:
you could

[00:22:11.84] spk_0:
build it up. Great.

[00:22:15.91] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is gonna be maintained, right?

[00:22:41.07] spk_0:
You want a crucial because I make it clear to all my such amazing you could be you could be sued for. Ah, um we could be potentially have a liability for exposing that there is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way, you know donating. Is it been interviewing for me and and before you know it, Tony’s employer finds out, you know, feels like this is loyal to the prom, so you have to protect confidential. It’s something that I have to establish the trust of my chance coming in. They’re out. They’re they’re adamant, and it’s just it goes with the same goes with the business. I have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a

[00:23:07.71] spk_3:
job. And this goes partly to, ah, the time commitment. You know, if if there isn’t a ah ah, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is gonna have to be after hours people are gonna be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six PM

[00:24:12.45] spk_0:
Yeah, I had, you know, in our business is growing tremendously. What’s what’s going on. But you know, when people you know, maybe I’ll do it myself if you can. It’s up to you, but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what you want, but the outreach to potential candidates. Very time consuming. If you’re going to delegate that members of a church Dominion war So you know professionals are working or even retired. It’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people. It’s a lot of time. Of all the narrowing candidates down and doing the reference checking, it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in the process, not just putting in and out there and then, you know, interviewing kids. It’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity. That’s really important,

[00:24:17.63] spk_3:
which is when I was just gonna point out that you say something that caught my eye was very, very interesting. I hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation to our role Thio be selling the applicants on the organization Not

[00:24:30.88] spk_5:
just to be not just to be a neutral a

[00:24:33.02] spk_3:
neutral committee, but be advocates for the organ.

[00:24:52.80] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, the cannon is gonna come in, they’re gonna come in prepared, and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, Jeez, I thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best thing since sliced bread? Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need the candidate’s gonna besides what the search consultant is gonna be telling them about the organization of recruiting for as a search committee, a CZ members that you want to be portraying a very positive image. You want to be sort of extending your hand. You want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome in warm, even if you’re not gonna be selected them. And you noted on the process you want to believe with a very positive for Donna. That’s a major all the search committee as it is.

[00:25:43.32] spk_3:
All right? Yeah. Interesting. Let’s move, Thio, Resume screening. You got. You got a ton of tips you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of. But you’ve got You’ve got a lot of tips to share. Share a couple of resume screen tips Now, we’re at that stage that these things are coming in. Resume resumes a lot of resumes coming out share, share a couple of resumes, screening tips,

[00:26:33.79] spk_0:
a couple things one of things you want to look for is Clary right off the bat asses. Clary. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get a hold of you? You don’t always have to have your home address these days, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think I look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where, where’s your career bed and a couple of tips you look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly. That’s a that’s a signal potential red flag, red flag were bad thing, but it should be there. The other thing that those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences, but you never get intensive where they perform that. So two things on a resume, both for people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for a position or responding to a search from is clarity is the resume clear of what I’ve accomplished is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have. And I think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that it really

[00:26:51.37] spk_3:
yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise Children

[00:27:00.22] spk_5:
absolutely. Was a caregiver was given for power

[00:27:11.59] spk_0:
that was concerned about a gap. And I said, Just tell him you have a PhD in parenthood. I mean, should be proud to be a parent way. Don’t have parents. We don’t keep that one. So I think it’s totally appropriate. But be honest with what you don’t want to do is start to cover things up here, Um, and so the, you know, present yourself in a positive tone. But certainly be honest if you took a couple of years out or time out to raise Children and be proud of it. And you did but these skills and bring back the table, I’m educated Workforce.

[00:27:30.47] spk_5:
I think

[00:27:31.17] spk_0:
I’m playing with that.

[00:27:34.97] spk_3:
Let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off? When you see people with email addresses that are Hotmail or a ol? Does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology

[00:27:58.20] spk_0:
now. I don’t know. Not any. Tell you why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business email and the personal email. And so they don’t want ah, search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into their professional at work email

[00:27:59.17] spk_5:
like, Yeah, I get that.

[00:28:04.63] spk_0:
I’m okay with the Gmail accounts. It’s when I see you know Dennis at, you know, big love dot com. I

[00:28:11.83] spk_5:
have Is that you? I’m gonna try that one. Yeah. Okay,

[00:28:15.05] spk_3:
but wait. Yeah, And then when did the e mails that are unprofessional? Like baby cakes, you know, But

[00:28:25.47] spk_5:
I don’t want no baby cakes. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right,

[00:28:27.77] spk_0:
I think it’s a potato to protect you. You know, your privacy from work. I think that’s fun.

[00:28:47.61] spk_3:
All right, but let me ask you. But but my point was, if it’s an added, you know, sort of added date domain, like a o. L or Hotmail or yeah, you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology? Now,

[00:28:51.94] spk_0:
if you know, if you haven’t out of the email address, and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address, um, and at that, eh? Oh, well, I mean, I’m flying with that.

[00:29:05.98] spk_5:
I’m

[00:29:06.37] spk_0:
playing with that.

[00:31:31.72] spk_3:
All right? Long is not baby cakes today. Oh, well, all right, way Need to take a break, wegner. No. Cougar Mountain Cuckoo Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What that means for you is that it’s got what you need. Like fund accounting, fraud prevention, grant and donor management. Custom reporting the awesome customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page, which you will always find at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take to last chance. This is the last call for innovators with doing the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020. Got a bunch of people I could use a couple more if you or someone you know, our, um tackling a problem or just approaching whatever challenges day to day issues in a different way. Then you think your ah, your colleagues elsewhere are and you’re having some success with it. Then I’d like to talk to you because you might be right for our innovators. Siris, Are you Are you innovating? Whether it’s any the fundraising topics which are myriad or its board relationships or could be bored recruiting CEO recruiting like we’re talking about today, whatever it is. Program management. Um, if you’re doing something innovative, tell me about it. Let me know you got You’ve had some success at it and let’s talk. Let’s see if there’s a fit for our innovators. Siri’s. You can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com or used the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. That is tony Stick to. Shall we continue with Dennis Miller and recruiting your CEO? I say we shall. Dennis Miller’s with us. You know him? We’re talking about his book, A guide to recruiting your next CEO. You know, we can’t We can’t cover the whole book, so just get the thing. For goodness sake. You know it’s a dentist. See miller dot com. That’s where you’ll find dentists in this book. Just get the damn thing. It’s just that I don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right, anyway, Dennis, let’s continue our joint through Um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through Lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when I don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Um, now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things were looking for. They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability.

[00:33:40.69] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean the entity process. Once we screen people intense of un resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone in the process, and we can get a better sense of where they are. As a potential candidate, we may explain a final car weather at one. A salary package, so without can’t be wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple of two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural fit? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on 18 builders or the You know, are they collaborators of the good communicators? And then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results. And I think those two things is what kinda, you know, separates the people who get to positions of those that don’t hear. I. We advised. Certainly the search committee on you know the question should be focused on Limited tony, too. You know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal with things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game and committal results. Those are two things that are a crucial now, one of things that you may ask me. I just want answers ahead of time is we have and your listeners could get if they contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non profit search dot com, we provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. I would have told a score of 50 and whether it’s on leadership, communications street, strategic planning board relationships, etcetera. So when people actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got 48 people supposedly going in the search committee members can evaluate for people and where people come out. Usually it’s good to have with them.

[00:33:52.62] spk_3:
You have a lot of resource is at the non profit search dot com. So, uh, you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring Matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s get into some details here now. Is the whole committee meeting with every, um, every candidate? Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then I don’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets air gonna judge people differently.

[00:34:35.03] spk_0:
Yeah, well, here’s what we do. Um And, um, the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates. Now, in a case we just have here because it’s got multiple locations, there are actually eight people on a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which twice, but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meet so many candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee he’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of every every candidate to be seen by every person

[00:34:54.42] spk_3:
you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit, you know? You don’t want to be asking Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions.

[00:35:35.66] spk_0:
Yeah, you hear? You don’t want to say, You know, uh, you want you want engage him in conversation and they want engage you in conversation too. And so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current position? On your most recent position? What was the your biggest achievement? Uh, he has an issue for us. How would you deal with it? Stay away from the yes or no questions. And we have, You know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here. No question to be asking, but it’s not open it. Not not yes or no Open ended question. Engagement of conversation is the best.

[00:35:43.20] spk_3:
Okay, uh, let’s say we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s our next step in the committee?

[00:36:55.22] spk_0:
What will you want to do is you wanna have everybody son of score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring so you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is I have I have a conversation with this share of the search committee, and then, uh, I will then meet with the search committee, or one of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee, dependable of the searches and what it’s for. And then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates. There’s just one person they like and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s two final plans. They’re not sure. So there’s a process here. The pluses here is obviously to let the other candidates know that they did well and they thank you before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience that’s Maur meets the needs of my client. We hope to see him again. The future and then focus in on having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making making a final offer on an employment contract. Employment agreement

[00:37:14.41] spk_3:
right now in this scoring, Obviously, some were going to score highest in High Esten higher than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, uh, you know, even the highest scoring one or two just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like I said, every in a group of five. Somebody’s going to score the highest. But even that highest one, they just don’t feel right, you know? How do we way feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process

[00:37:36.37] spk_5:
Well expressed. Happened,

[00:39:20.56] spk_0:
uh, you know, only once in my recent experience where, um, in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and you know, as you know, the millions of millions of people that serve on non proper boards throughout this country and in other countries. In Canada, you know, our bright, committed people, they gotta see it. You gotta feel for, you know, who you think would fit in here. So usually you know the scores will help you because it gives you a feedback. But usually you get a kind of feeling who would be the best person for that If there’s a situation, Um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates, I absolutely would highly recommend that you go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. We started with believing out of pool of 18 candidates, uh, knit, knit up, down with it down to 11. That was down to five. And five people came in. And so the entire team and that team in there identified, you know, two people and, uh, lo and behold, some discussion and some some time issues, and then people not sure what decision to make. And it was some inexperience on the team making decision, and they kind of planted and they just so I’m not sure I’m ready to pull the trigger. So we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again and usually don’t get the great candidates again. And we did, and it worked out. So if for some reason you don’t feel it, I dont just say, Well, because there’s a high score because you’re gonna live with this person quite awhile. Usually does not happen. Tony.

[00:39:24.64] spk_5:
You, um

[00:39:34.96] spk_0:
you know the search for doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate. But if it’s amazing, you feel that, you know, I just don’t feel it. So this person is going to fit in here that don’t just pick someone because of scored. The scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate?

[00:39:41.30] spk_3:
Is this the stage where we should be calling references? Now we’ve We’ve narrowed it down to our top two or

[00:39:45.51] spk_5:
so.

[00:40:20.91] spk_0:
So what will a CZ We get? The final can’t wait, Do ask for reference, but here’s what we do. We don’t ask them. They tell us who they’re going to use this reference. We are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking. For example, in a CEO case, we know they can’t talk about the company we’d liketo have been talked. We’d like to talk to someone who is a board member, maybe a board member. Another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them. So, uh, we don’t always talkto the references. I had a time because if you’ve got four final candidates, we it’s not about our time. It’s that we if you’re not going to be chosen, why go through the hassle of asking people and speaking to the reference But with your Jarious final candidate, we absolutely do a thorough construct. And I have a little bit of a funny story that you’re Listen,

[00:40:45.19] spk_5:
um, you

[00:41:15.73] spk_0:
may enjoy it just kind of quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when I did my first start believing not 30 years ago, and I was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people, and it was, ah, man, a woman. And remember, the man had sort of Maur experience, But the young woman had seemed like much more potential anyway, for some reason, that the man had given me a list of 10 references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me 10 references, and I call it the 46 References. This man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru.

[00:41:22.76] spk_5:
But the time I got the

[00:41:23.74] spk_0:
78 I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time I got denying, 10 people were asking me, you know, why did you What did this guy even give me a reference?

[00:41:36.38] spk_5:
The moral stories you want to keep,

[00:42:12.63] spk_0:
you know, kind of dig in here, and it’s certainly you have a light as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we d’oh and same time protecting a confidential alley. But certainly we need to do a thorough research on them. And then, in addition to references, we obviously do a check on, um, educational credentials. And then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not do regarding the one pursue feeling criminal background check, will and credit credit risk of credit reports.

[00:42:58.13] spk_3:
It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of was 30 years ago. We didn’t have words we have. We have word. We’re gonna be using that word perfect. Where you had to write down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use, like, the last four. We’re We’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we gotta take a break. I missed our last break. You ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you to do that. They themselves are former journalists. They specialize

[00:43:04.45] spk_4:
in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a

[00:43:45.38] spk_3:
turn hyphen to dot ceo. Let’s add a little more live love. We got someone jumped in from New York, New York. Welcome. Welcome. New New York New York listener Also. Bangkok, Thailand. I’ve been there and that’s a beautiful city. Beautiful, rich history and, uh, Tijuana, Mexico. Wegner Star Days, Tijuana. Let’s go back. We’ve got butt loads. More time, as we always do for recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book, a guy to recruiting your next CEO. Let’s continue our joint. Ah, Ajanta Dennis. Okay, so we’ve checked references, references, and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours And what? They’re meeting some of the staff now, too. And maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our service is,

[00:44:01.29] spk_0:
uh, no, what? We worked a

[00:44:02.76] spk_5:
man that don’t do that made staff

[00:44:05.36] spk_0:
until they are having a pleasant

[00:44:08.26] spk_5:
way.

[00:44:29.60] spk_0:
In actuality, you don’t You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a CEO level. Uh, they have to pick the CEO. If it’s another level. Certainly, if it’s a chief operating officer of chief financial officer, it’s probably appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them, then find out who’s a better fit culture, that line.

[00:44:32.94] spk_5:
But

[00:44:34.11] spk_0:
on a CEO, though, you won’t make it clear that the board is making the decision and I would not have staff involved on interviewing until mating accepted.

[00:44:45.18] spk_3:
So who are they meeting then? In this this day when they’re going to visit the visit? The site.

[00:44:50.16] spk_0:
While so many have gone to the search committee, Obviously, there’s no one else to me except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the CEO

[00:44:58.03] spk_5:
way, our home,

[00:46:29.73] spk_0:
that once a search committee has made a decision, um, before an offer was made, it’s, uh, what the search committee wants to Dio doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wanna search? Committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board, and in many cases, and I will advise us is have that final CEO Warren. The case where there’s too close candidates committed. Meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one, that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants. Don’t waste the time of having to to feel you have to bring a 2nd 1 and you given someone hope when when they’re not probably gonna be selected But I have an interesting story, tony, that you listen, May 1. Here. Uh, about a year ago, we did a search for a CEO, and the search committee had him ranked. Wanted to have this. Ah, woman ranked one and a guy number two. And, um, I had agreed with that recommendation. Thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation. Ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate. And some things came up in discussions. And I think at the end of day, they made the right decision. So don’t forget, the board has the final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee is here to recommend candidates. But do not hire a CEO from a search committee on Lee. They must meet the entire board.

[00:46:35.38] spk_3:
Have you ever heard of co CEOs?

[00:47:32.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I have. And I I found it never. Well, a couple times, it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions so both people take on the role of co CEO. 1 may have responsibility for maybe a certain geography one than another. Ah, one’s focus more on one thing I before not the have it. I think, uh, co CEOs is like co board chairs. Um, it doesn’t make a feeling that anybody is really in charge. Um, I’m working with an organization right now out in California because we do certainly national searches as well as in Canada. And you know, there’s a transition going on and it’s the heart organization. It’s important to know who’s in charge. So if it has to happen and you’re particularly with a merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally, it sooner than later, it’s only a position. You can’t have a Coast CEO. It doesn’t work. I’ve seen co chief development offices, and it doesn’t work either. I mean, I think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion.

[00:48:18.83] spk_3:
Okay, way explored co CEOs with Jean Takagi. So if anyone wants Thio, get more on that. That was the May 19th 2017 show with Gene. Um, Okay. Um all right, we, uh it’s time to negotiate an offer we were, uh we’ve selected our top one. Um, you like guards? Guidestar. They have? I don’t know if you mentioned I know them. Guide star has a good salary guide. Comes out every year. S Oh, it’s it’s current. Um, but do you have other studies that you like?

[00:48:21.17] spk_0:
Yeah, a couple of things here. We have a good sense of what the marketplaces like. Different geography, maybe

[00:48:26.80] spk_5:
waken

[00:48:46.47] spk_0:
use guide star and I. I like your condition well, but here’s the palm and it’s not Guide says bomb. Is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest compensated employees? It’s probably two years old. Um, even if it says 2016 and you’re in 17 it may have been, you know, we were involved in June of 2015 so I don’t rely upon that Nestle as a guide for

[00:48:53.31] spk_5:
making offer. I

[00:49:23.71] spk_0:
know what the organization, um, is looking to pay. I know what What? The Sally is people that are looking, and then we I advise because I’m involved in every single. So I advise my client is what I think it’s gonna take to get the person I’ve seen clients do salary surveys using Geiser and other things that commit some other compensations. Raise. There’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that. You don’t know what the performance of the organization has been. You don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what how well they’ve done with fund raising.

[00:49:30.20] spk_5:
You

[00:49:39.63] spk_0:
know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So one of the advantages of doing what? What the rate is to attract some money, and that’s kind of what we do.

[00:49:43.61] spk_3:
Okay, let’s spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you just gotta buy the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book. But I wanna spend last couple minutes just about two minutes or so on on on boarding. This is a board responsive board responsibility.

[00:50:09.19] spk_0:
Well, that’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to CEOs, I mean, half of them have never been on border. So what? What do you mean by sort of on board a candidate? Well, are on boarding. I’m boarding. If you don’t get on board, you get hired, and then you start, and then you go, Jeez, I don’t know. This is the way. Itwas

[00:50:15.06] spk_3:
you know, you’re not supported in your new digital, John. So

[00:50:25.65] spk_0:
I know what you on boarding refers to. The idea of preparing a CEO to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components

[00:50:26.92] spk_5:
of the new

[00:51:14.06] spk_0:
role and or to the board here really, very important that be some type of on boarding process. So, as an example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about with on boarding. Here is, um let’s be clear. So both the board and the CEO and again, you could say the same thing about a CEO or CFO. What? She’s development officer. Same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly, that’s gonna come up. Don’t interview puzzle, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair I want to communicate to the CEO? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other Friday? Did they want e mails or not e mails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the CEO to accomplish in the 1st 30 days or 60 days, or maybe 180

[00:51:21.37] spk_5:
days.

[00:51:27.63] spk_0:
What the cultural issues or financial issues that the organization is facing. What senior members of the team may have some performances. The watch out for who were the key stakeholders outside the organization, like donors of volunteers that you want the seal to make sure that building wishes perhaps, maybe with a local Congress person or a member of the Senate Assembly here.

[00:51:46.27] spk_3:
Dennis Dennis. We gotta leave it there. There’s too much.

[00:51:49.16] spk_5:
All right. Thank

[00:52:08.43] spk_3:
you so much, Dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guy to recruiting your next CEO. You’ll find it at Dennis c. Miller dot com, and you’ll find him at Dennis C. Miller next week. We don’t have any show, so I’m wishing you happy. Turkey Day. Help you enjoy your Thanksgiving. I hope it’s time away from work, including email and text.

[00:52:19.61] spk_4:
If texting is part of your work,

[00:53:03.64] spk_3:
um, and time with family, family and maybe even dear friends. I hope you enjoy your Thanksgiving. We’ll be back on December 6th with Vivian Hexter on Big Impact. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers

[00:53:44.00] spk_2:
Clad Meyerhoff. Sam Leave, which is the lying producer thief shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Knew every next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% will actually be with me in two weeks for big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for October 18, 2019: Scale Up & Sustain

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Wall I if I saw that you missed today’s show Scale Up and sustain. It’s a question I hear often from non-profit leaders. How does my organization get to the next level? Kathleen Kelly. Janice’s research leads her to the answers, and she shares them with you. Her book is Social startup Success that originally aired on December 8th 2017 on Tony’s take to share Share. That’s fair, Responsive by Wagner C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software Denali, fundez They’re Complete accounting Solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s scale up and sustain. I’m very glad to welcome Kathleen Kelly Janice to the show. She is a social entrepreneur, author and lecturer at Stanford University. Her work in philanthropy, millennial millennial engagement and scaling Early stage organizations has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Huffington Post, Stanford Social Innovation Review, non-profit radio Is there TechCrunch and The San Francisco Chronicle I’ve been in the Wall Street Journal, too. So you know, she’s the co founder of Spark. I haven’t cofounded anything. That’s the largest network of millennial donors in the world. Her new book is Social Startup Success. How the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference. She’s at K k. Janice. And I’m very glad and pleased. Thrilled that Kathleen’s book brings her to non-profit Radio Welcome, Kathleen Kelly. Janice, Thank you so much for having me, Tony. It’s my place. My real pleasure. I am. I am anxious to talk to you about this book. As anxious as I was to read it because I do always get that question. How do we get to the next level? And, um, I believe you have Ah, I believe you have the answer. Answers answers. I believe you can point us in the right direction. I hope so. Okay. Okay. I wanna, um I’m gonna start with reading something. I’m actually gonna start with the conclusion of your book. Thats paragraph just struck me. So, um, it says the journey and we’re gonna talk about your journey has made me even more keenly aware of how many non-profits are operating on a month to month basis, scrambling to raise money to sustain them. While so much innovation has occurred in the nonprofit world in recent decades, my conversations with organizational leaders and my observations of their daily routines have impressed upon me how considerable the challenges any non-profit faces are, no matter how innovative it’s model or impactful its services. What’s going on out there? Kathleen Kelly Johnson. Janice Well, I think you you really summed it up nicely there. Those are your words, not mine. I just You summed it up. I just I’m a copycat. What what’s happening is that we’re on the one hand, living in a philanthropic renaissance. It’s a really exciting time for non-profit innovation. So many in-kind credible ideas are happening, and I’ve really had a front row seat here in the Silicon Valley, watching so many non-profits capitalizing on Ah, lot of the growth that we’ve seen in the tech industry as well. Organizations like Key by using crowdfunding Thio be able to support organizations in the developing world. And then, on the other hand, we have so many incredible ideas that are dying on the vine because organizations can’t get the financial support that they need to get to the next level to get to a level of sustainability. And I became really interested in the question myself. I was really, really curious. Why are some organizations succeeding and wire others really flailing? And it turns out that in fact, 2/3 of non-profits in the United States air $500,000 in below revenue. And many of these organizations should stay small community based organizations and are feeling an important role in the non-profit community. But many of these organizations want to scale. They figured out a proven model that is working to support their beneficiaries. Thio help create a more just world, and they simply can’t get the capital they need to grow. And so my research really explores the foundations of success. What is it that organizations need to do in order to take that next step in to grow their impact to the next level? Yeah, you talk about the struggle to scale, which is essentially what you just said even more eloquently. Um, see. So let’s, um we’re not gonna have time to go through the the entire book. You know, you’ve got five elements of what you think. It takes toe scale and be sustainable. Um, so I’m just gonna start with encouraging people. You just, you know, if you want to get to the next level, you just got a by the book. I mean, that non-profit radio is good as it is. Cannot substitute for this for this book, so all right, I may mention that a couple times. So why don’t you walk us through the five parts of what you believe? You know, your research has, um, lead youto t believe you are the essential parts of what, What’s needed? Sure. So there’s five strategies that I identify that came up over and over again in the 100 interviews that I did around the country of organizations that have scaled past $2 million and beyond. And and that’s really the level that I define as a certain level of sustainability. Um and so the organizations that tend to scale really all exhibited thes five strategies. So the 1st 1 is that They began testing their ideas very early on and before they went out and raised money. They figured out some ways to pilot the program so that they could figure out what was working at what was not so. But by the time they went out to market, they they had some impact to show. When we’re able to get funded for that and and B, we’re able to then integrate a culture of innovation that helped them constantly improve their models as they grow. The second strategy is that these organizations that the organizations that tended to scale more quickly in a large survey that I did the survey results show that these organizations, we’re able to say that they began measuring impact from the very start from Day one, and that’s not make sense because those are the organizations that were able to go out, and Thio show donors that they were having an impact and, um but those are also the organizations that are able to increase their impact by letting go programs that aren’t working or tweaking them and making them better, so that impact measurement is really key and it’s often something that organizations struggle with the third strategy is funding experimentation and developing a plan to test both earned income sources as well as philanthropic income, to figure out a funding model that works, Um, and Thio to be able to take the organization to scale. There is no one size fits all sending model for nonprofit organizations. Every organization has to figure out what’s gonna work for them. And so putting some processes in place to test out different sources of income is gonna be the best way for organizations to figure out what that is. The fourth strategy is developing a culture of collective leadership. I think we all have this tendency in in today’s society thio to revere the founder to put founders on the pedestal, whether it’s in the for-profit world. Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook or associating Apple with Steve Jobs or even in the nonprofit world. And you know, the quintessential um example, is Mohammed Yunus is the is the founder of the Grameen Bank and won the Nobel Prize, and leaders should be honored. But at the same time, they’re the best organizations figure out that greatness is not built on one person. It’s built on the backs of teamwork and the best organizations figure out how to bring in senior leadership early on so that founders can go out and spend time on fund-raising and strategy that they have really strong, um, boards of directors that help help them grow their organization. And they flipped that hierarchical pyramid on its head and put the staff up front because they realized that their staff are the ones that are on the front lines. Making an impact and have the closest connections, often to the beneficiaries, is really the key to their work. The final strategy is storytelling with purpose. I think we all have a tendency to listen Thio a Ted talk or ah, great political speech and think, Wow, that person is just a natural. But when I went out and talked with all of these leaders, the best storytellers spend a lot of time practicing their craft. I had one social entrepreneur tell me that her she she’s an Olympic athlete, and her Olympic sport is storytelling and speech making and because she could be speaking the word of God. But if it’s told in a boring way, then no one’s gonna listen to her and these leaders figure out that that organizations can have impact when they’re able to build a movement, and that comes with telling a good story and getting people on board. And it’s not just at the leadership level, is at every level of the organization, because these organizations realize that staff members, board members, beneficiaries and champions can all be brand ambassadors for their organizations. And so they work hard. Thio help them with their storytelling so that everybody can go out and be champions for the cause of the five strategies. And to me, what was most exciting about this research is that I kept waiting for someone to say, You know, it’s just charisma or grid. You are some sort of innate trait that makes an organization succeed or not, but no one said that on. In fact, it really came down Thio thes strategies that any non-profit can implement no matter what kind of resources they have at their fingertips. Kathleen Kathleen Way, It’s time for a break. I wanted to do the overview. Hang with me while, uh, what we take a break. It’s time for a break. Wagner. CPS. Does your accountant return your calls and emails that they keep up to their deadlines. Do you like them? You get along with them. Are the keeping mistakes to a minimum? If these aren’t all yeses, then maybe it’s time to look for a replacement. And, you know, a partner at an accounting firm. You know, partner Wagner, CPS. He’s eat duitz tomb. He’s been on the show a couple times. Check out wagon cps dot com. Then talk to you. Eat, See if they can help you out. Wagner cps dot com Now let’s go back to scale up and sustain. I want to do some of our live Listen, love. Okay, Kathleen, you are there, right? Yes, Absolutely. Okay. Wonderful. I feel like doing the live. Listen, I love a little early, so let’s shout out to Tampa, Florida. Would Ridge, New Jersey Woodbridge so consistent with the listening? I don’t believe it. Would you please identify yourself? Woodbridge, New Jersey. Please come forward. I want to shout you out in person. Um, New York, New York. Multiple New York, New York. We’ve got, uh, Charlotte, North Carolina live listener love by going after Charlotte and Jersey City, New Jersey. My, my uh, my dad’s my dad’s hometown. That’s where he was born on McAdoo F. Jersey City, New Jersey. Live listeners love to you. College station. Texas is with us. So our, uh Germany Boudin tog Seoul, South Korea on your haserot. Come. Zoho Mita, Mexico City. Yes. Mexico City, Mexico. We got multiple there. Good afternoon. Born a swat? Bona Bona Santa. That’s it. It’s Italy. When a start is is it leave with us born Asada. If you are, Tehran is with us and took a result. Japan and the United Kingdom live list here. Love to each of you. We’re gonna divide it up today. The other 2/3 are gonna come. Ah, a little later on. All right, Kathleen. Now you don’t You don’t like to go by, uh, Katie or Kate or Cather. Kay, You’re strictly a Kathleen girl. Is that right? My name Kathleen. Okay. No, Katie’s. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s talk about your journeys. I mentioned in when I read a little bit from the conclusion you’re parents were very active and promoted a spirit of giving when you were young. This is That seems to be the genesis of your interest in this hole in the whole sector. It was definitely an inspiration for me. I’m really lucky that I grew up in this amazing little small town in Napa, California and my parents were very involved in the non-profit Ah, sector. My dad was a community banker and my mom was a teacher, and they they served on dozens of non-profit boards throughout the year. So when I think about our weekends, we often spent time volunteering in soup kitchens or serving at the local medical clinic for low income workers. But our volunteer efforts didn’t end there. We we sat around the dinner table and talked about how organizations often struggle. So my parents were talking about fundraisers they were hosting. Thio. Try and help support an organization that was struggling to get the resource. Is that needed to do that important service work that were involved in this was actually this was dinner table conversation for you. Yeah, that’s you know that that’s that’s Ah, that’s not common, right? E didn’t know any different. I know, I know. Yeah, but you know, it’s not it’s not. I mean, I know you’ve realized that since then, but, uh, that’s a remarkable Okay, I’m sorry. It’s just That’s just remarkable as I was reading about you having these conversations with your parents about sustainability, even though that word we weren’t using that word. But that’s what you were talking about. Well, yeah, and it’s not that my family was very sophisticated. It’s just that they believed really strongly that there are people in our community who are not as fortunate as us and that it’s our duty to give back to those people, but that it’s not just about giving back Thio people who are less fortunate. It’s about making sure that the organizations that are supporting them are strong so that they can provide those important social services. That something that was very much a part of my upbringing. Yeah, that’s outstanding. Um, and let’s now come to the research that led you to the ah to the overview that you gave us earlier. What was Thea was the process for this? Lots of interviews. Yeah, So I really came at it because I had experienced this issue myself personally. When I graduated from law school, I I started my own small non-profit with a group of women in San Francisco called Spark. We engage young professionals and gender equality issues, and we also had this problem where we had a ton of buzz. In the beginning, we were growing our revenue every few months, doubling our annual budget. And then at a certain point, just when we were hitting our stride, we hit a wall and we couldn’t get the capital that we needed in the door, get to the next level and increase the impact that we wanted. So that was around the half a $1,000,000 mark, wasn’t it? Half a $1,000,000 for us, and for every for every non-profit it it could be different. But I have found that that half $1,000,000 mark is a really a critical state hump because it is a place that a lot of organizations struggled to get beyond that kind of like initial grant funding and initial seed capital to really get some more sustainable grants in the door. So to get back to your question about the process for me, and when I began teaching social entrepreneurship at Stanford wearing my research cap, I began looking at this question more critically. I developed a survey and sent it out Thio Ah, 1000 organizations in the United States that were in some of the top. There’s entrepreneurship portfolios like going green and a show CA in school. And so I heard back from them and I tested everything from, you know, with their social media better and helping them scale, or was it there impact measurement in the way that they were measuring impact? And I came up with some initial findings that I went out and tested and I got to go out and interview in person. Ah, 100 organization founders there they’re funders, their beneficiaries, their staff and really just asked them a key question, which is what is the secret to non-profit success? And the findings are based on the stories that they told me in those interviews. The, um the the parts that I wanna start to focus on, um, is that that early stage you call it testing testing ideas? Um, I I think of it as sort of, you know, mastering as much as you can. The the problem. Like trying to get your mind around what the problem is and testing solutions to it. Um, I Is it okay if I describe it that way. Absolutely. What I found in my research is that the best social entrepreneurs fall in love with the problem, not the solution. Well, it is a lot harder once you fall in love with that solution. Thio let it go even if it’s not working. But if we really focus on the problem, then you’re gonna be able Thio, figure out the best strategy to address the problem. You talk about ideation and and brainstorming and not allowing any solutions to be censored at at the early stages. Yeah, and that’s you know that is that this human-centered design theory that has come up but Stanford at the D school or in various capacities? It’s really just a fancy way of talking about problem solving and a process for understanding how to brainstorm ideas. Um, and it doesn’t really have to be fancy. I owe you an example. An organization that I interviewed It was wishbone, which is Ah crowdfunding site for low income kids who want thio have summer experiences in the arts are in Fillmore in cooking to help them following their follow their dreams. And when the organization started, they didn’t start by launching this huge website in this platform and investing a lot of money and then, you know, then find the kids they did it the other way around. They did a really low cost test to figure out whether the model would work. So, uh, the founder was a teacher for low income students in Los Angeles at the time. She assigned an essay to them and ask them to write about their passion. Then she took some of her favorite papers and she photocopied them. And she stuck them in a male in the mail with a stamp and sent them to her relatives and her friends to say, Would you fund these kids to be able to follow their passions in the summer? And she got a bunch of money from those people and she was able to send them to summer camps and to do internships and realized that there was really something there, and it was really just this kind of low cost testing in the beginning that helped her figure out what worked and what didn’t and helped her develop an engine that she could then grow to scale. And it is hard to to throw off solutions. I mean, you know, remove solutions, eliminate them. You know you feel like you’ve got some, um, resource is devoted to it, but the outcomes air just not coming, it’s It’s hard to throw off, throw them off, though, and start a family. A lot of work to overcome that a lot of organizations get stuck in that cycle for two reasons. One is because it’s really hard. Thio admit failure. So I think that’s a big problem in the sector is just getting more comfortable with failure? But because oftentimes these these programs are doing important work, and it’s not that they’re necessarily bad. Maybe not the most impactful they be. I’ll tell you a story of one really successful example of this an organization called Last Mile Health founded in Liberia Toe help Get health care for some of the poorest communities there to decrease their mortality rates had when it started 13 different programs everything from women’s health programs, Thio AIDS programs, helping patients with HIV AIDS and as they started to grow, they realized that the program that was having the biggest impact was this program that was helping bring community based care to the rural areas of Liberia. So there were no doctors there. There were people who had to walk, sometimes 12 13 hours to get to the capital city on, and they had very few doctors serving millions of people. And so these community health care workers were able to give them the treatment that they needed, sometimes using cell phone service, t get care remotely. And, as it turned out, because it was so successful, they decided they made the very hard decision of closing down all these other programs that were very good programs but just weren’t having that kind of level of impact they wanted to see. And when the Ebola crisis hit in 2012 that was absolutely critical because they had focused their efforts on these community health care workers. Those community health care workers were able to prevent a global health crisis, so I can’t think of a better story. You know that they really because they were able to focus their energy on a program that was working, they were ableto have massive impact and so I think we all have to keep that kind of end goal in mind when we’re when we’re doing this, that it’s really about maximizing the potential of the impact that we can have. And let’s talk about measuring that impact. Um, let’s start with the distinction between your outputs and your outcomes or your impact. Well, what I found is that a lot of organizations tend to focus on the outcome on the on the output those air, the Vanity Mac tricks that are very easy. Thio T. C. So, for example, how many people are participating in your programs, or how many people are coming to your website to get social services? But ultimately, it’s not showing how the programs are having change on their life, their long term outcomes. It might even be something physical, like how many, uh, backpack kits we put together for homeless outreach? Yeah, I think. Then what is the home of the people do with them? And how did that change their lives? Right and does not change their lives so that you get out of homeless. Does it really the ultimate goal? Um, and so this is something that I think a lot of organizations struggle with, because non-profit leaders are not data scientists, and sometimes it can be overwhelming to think about, Like, how do you measure outcomes? How do you measure the ripple effect of providing that backpack to a homeless youth and what that does to get him in the door to a shelter that does that, help him ultimately get a job, Um, and and ultimately, get him off the streets. That’s a really hard path to follow. But you don’t have to be a data scientist, and it doesn’t have to be so hard. And in the book, I give a lot of really tangible strategies that non-profit organizations can use the help figure out what are the long term outcomes and get past these vanity metrics that just make us feel good about our impact but aren’t really telling us whether we’re making progress toward the ultimate goal. Kathleen, we just have about a minute or so before next break. Um, talk a little about the ah, using this data to help you tell your story. Yeah, that was something that I saw over and over again. Is we have a situation where 75% of non-profits collect data, but only 6% of them feel like they really know what to do with that data on the best non-profits. Figure out how to get it into bite size chunks of information that someone can easily digest in just a few minutes. And that could be whether you’re a small organization or whether you’re a huge organization. It really just comes down to those bite-sized pieces of information. Indulge me while we take another break. You need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for non-profits. Simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your own accounting software? QuickBooks. Quicken Turbo Cash Workday zoho Patriot No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think that was That may have been one too many nose, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you cannot. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial made for non-profits. You’ll find that on the listener landing page at tony dot m. A slash Cougar Mountain. Now time for Tony’s Take two. How about a little, as we learned as children, you know, share, share? That’s fair. How about sharing non-profit radio? Do you know someone who do you know? Let’s let’s let’s be in the affirmative. Who do you know that order. Be listening to non-profit radio. Someone who works for another non-profit works for your own non-profit eyes on a board, someone who’s a boardmember board members, great listeners to get a lot of good feedback from board members. Um, you know how good this show is. You’ve been listening your subscriber or you’re just sampling. Either way, you’re getting value from it. Share the value share share. That’s fair. That’s what I learned in third grade. When I was never shared that I wouldn’t share anything a little trouble game, You know where you popped the thing in the middle and then you move. The wooden used to be long ago. You move the wooden pegs along yet to get into the center. I never would share. I would just play all four or four parts for myself, but that’s that’s in the past. Now we know that sharing is good, So who can you share non-profit radio with? Please do. Let’s let’s expand the flock. Bring more into the family and I thank you very much for sharing non-profit radio. Let’s go back to Kathleen Kelly, Janice and scale up and sustain. Let’s let’s continue with the podcast Pleasantries. He was surprised. I divided it up. We say, on the heels of the live Listen, love has to come. The podcast pleasantries. Well, the heels a little longer this time. It’s a stiletto this time, Um, podcast. Pleasant feast are over 12,000. Listening in the time shift. The vast majority of our audience is there. And I’m thank you’il thankful that you are with us. Pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our AM and FM affiliate station listeners throughout the country. Thank you so much for being with us. I’m grateful that your station includes us in their weekly schedule. And I’m glad that you are listening on the, um on the terrestrial on the terrestrial side, the AM and FM affections to the affiliate listeners. Thank you very much. Kathleen Kelly. Janice. Thank you. You’re welcome. You’re still there, right? Yes, I’m here. Okay. Cool. Um, I noticed you, uh, is going back to your parents. You You dedicated the book to your parents and you say, for my parents who taught me the value of citizenship how do you define that citizenship? What do you think of as a citizenship. Well, for me, I’ve been raised with this idea that we all have a duty to give back to making the world a better place. And so we all have the capacity to make impact in some way. And to me, that’s really exciting. And I think getting even Maur and more prevalent I acknowledge that not everybody was is lucky to have been raised with that mentality as I was, although I’m sure there are others who had those really important dinner conversations about social impact where No, no, I’m not sure how caught prevalent toyour, but more and more. What I see with my students at Stanford when I see the next generation is that there is this changing mentality that non-profit work used to be just about writing a check to a foundation or thio non-profit and then being on your way, people want to roll up their sleeves. Now they want to get involved. Non-profit work is no longer relegated. Thio. You know when you leave the office at 5 p.m. That millennials are thinking about how can they make a difference in their work in making the word world a better place? Whether that is using their skills to do pro bono work, or whether that e-giving back through donations and getting others involved in like minded causes. To me, this is really exciting because it’s increased the potential for all of us. Thio make an impact in the world because we’re thinking about social change in a in a really different way. But it’s also really exciting for non-profits because there’s an opportunity for non-profits to capitalize on that. And I think too many non-profits out there are operating in this old fashioned model where they’re seeking donations. Maybe they have, you know, an annual event or an annual dinner where they bring people together for a long program and, uh, over dinner. And then that’s it. They collect their money, and then they get back to them the next year when it’s time for the dinner again. But people don’t want that. Donors don’t want that they want to be engaged, and they want to feel like they’re making an impact. And so the onus is on the non-profits to really think about how to help donors get involved, and ultimately that will lead Thio. I think more funding for organizations as well. You encourage non-profits to think about earned income, recognizing that it may not fit in every situation, that there might be non-profits where it’s not appropriate. But let’s talk about the potential for earned income and howto explore it well. I am keenly aware, as someone who was trained as a human rights lawyer that not all causes air suited for earned income. Human rights work is a perfect example of someone cannot afford the bus fare to get to the courthouse in the first place. They can’t afford to pay a lawyer for their rights. Many organizations are going to rely on philanthropic capital to fill that gap, and that is important. And that’s okay. But what I found in my research is that when possible, the organizations that are able to bring in earned income are going to be ableto have this kind of level of sustainability that helps them get through the hard times. Ah, lot of organizations talked about the recession in 2008 went so many grantmaking organizations pulled funding that they had already promised this was money that organizations were relying on, but their endowments had gone down and paint with the down Jones, and so they weren’t able to provide that really important funding and the organizations that had earned income sources, like a fee for service model or ah, model where they were selling products, those air the organizations that had the fuel to get them through that time when they didn’t know where their next philanthropic check was coming from. So it’s something that I think all non-profits need to at least consider as they develop their funding model, are their sources of her an income that can help grow the organization and and be willing to experiment with those. Absolutely. You also encourage a ah multiyear fund-raising plan. So it’s a little about what you’re going to that I think so many organizations think about fund-raising, like filling a bathtub with a teaspoon. It’s painful. You’re putting the water in a teaspoon by teaspoon, and then at the end of the year, when you start a new budget cycle, you drain the bathtub and you start over again. That is a really painful way to approach fund-raising, and what the best organizations do is they think about fund-raising on a multiyear strategy so they make sure that their grants when possible or multiyear grants so that there looking at funding 3 to 5 years out and not just here in a year, and then they help educate their donors on the importance of that. So not just not just foundations, but also individual donors who can contribute on a year to year level. And when you set that culture into motion, it helps you think much bigger about the prospects for fund-raising, as opposed Thio from a place of scarcity, that mentality of scarcity. It is him. There’s a lot of not just organizations, but people. They just they feel like the they aren’t going to get what they need. It really does. And I hate to use that example because I think it’s really easy, you know, as a researcher to say, just think bigger and non-profits I can think is because they wanted. That doesn’t mean that the funding is gonna come in the door. But I do notice there was one funder that I interviewed who said You can tell the difference between the organization when you ask them the question. What would you do if you had $10 million and the ones that are able to answer that question right off the bat. Those were the ones that are going to go big because they’re the ones that are thinking in that way and that have a plan and are and believe that they can get there. And so I think it’s really it is really about mentality in many ways. Yeah, all right, OK, so we need to overcome that. We need to have the courage to think that’s a $10 million level, absolutely, and don’t need to be thinking bigger, too. I mean, go both ways, and that’s your responsibility to help your donors think that way. Rate. Imagine what we could do if we had $10 million. Imagine how many lives we could touch inspire those donors to be a part of the solution. That is really what it’s all about. Collaboration. You mentioned it earlier when you were, ah, giving us the eloquent overview. Um, let’s let’s talk about the collaboration delegation. Strong leaders are not afraid to pass tasks onto others. It’s really critical, and organizations cannot succeed without a really strong team. The story that I love that really illustrates this is of Kiva dot org’s. I mentioned earlier that crowdfunding platform to support small businesses in the developing world, using donorsearch Unnie from premier from primarily United States but also now all around the world. And this organization started right around the same time that I co founded a spark. And so I I got to see this firsthand competition. Yes, well, they were in a competition, but you could benchmark against. I guess you were well, yeah, and and it was really amazing story because Jessica Jackley and Matt Flannery, the founders, were on Oprah Winfrey. They were featured in Bill Clinton’s e-giving book and were featured on The Oprah Show. That income that didn’t come for you as co founder of Spark? No, as much like the way I saw what happened for them, they raised $11 million overnight. After being on the Oprah show, they they literally crashed their servers and and we’re no longer able to accept funds. And so overnight they had to think about leadership in a very distributed way because they needed all hands on deck in order to distribute all of those funds that they had received until now is an organization they have 100 employees and 500 volunteers around the world. There, keep a fellows go into the field. Thio, Thio, follow-up on the Grants and Thio ensure that they’re going where they say they’re going and Thio tell those stories and catalog those stories. We rely on all those volunteers and all those staff to be on the front lines. And so they have strategies to make sure that those people, their staff, feel empowered to support the mission of the organization. So an example is they allow their staff to develop their own impact metrics so the staff can feel connected to how their work in particular is Contributing to the mission of the order is excellent. Okay, it’s not. It’s not top down right where we’re talking about the antithesis of top down leadership. Absolutely. I mean, even their feedback model. They have horizontal feedback mechanisms so that they’re not giving and receiving feedback in a top down way. And that really helps set into motion this culture of horizontal value for all employees. All right, Kathleen, we take our our third break. Um, I want to remind listeners the book is social startup success. If you’re listening live. You could be cooking right through now to Barnes and Noble or Amazon. Be buying it while I take this break time for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your work, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find all that at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for scale up and sustain Kathleen the, uh, the other part of collaborative leadership. Besides, um, strong, strong senior leadership is a strong active board. What do you like to see there? Well, a lot of organizations start out with what I call in the book of Friends and Family Board, where they know they have to legally have a board of directors. And so they go out and they recruit anyone who’s close to them. Thio help them with their organization, and this leads to a lot of problems because friends and family are not always the most suited to help you grow an organization they don’t always necessarily have the skills and often time friends and family. Tell you what, you want to hear those two really pushing you to be your best Not gonna challenge you Tell me they’re not gonna challenge you. They’re not gonna challenge you. Yes, exactly. And so and so and so really what I saw. The organization that scaled had a robust organise a robust organizational board that was suited for the skills that they needed and the talents that they needed to grow the organization. And even if it meant having to go through that brutal process of moving from the friends and family board to the more robust kind of governance board my husband always that we have three children and my husband always likes to say, I can’t fire my mother in law. You know, it’s a lot easier sometimes. Hire a baby sitter. Well, that should be Your job. Should be firing your own mother. It’s much easier for you to do. No one wants to have to fire their mother. So don’t put your mother on your board. That’s the lesson, Um, and and really getting it right. The first time is the best recipe for success. But there are strategies that I talk about in the book for how to move past the friends and Family board to a governance board. That’s really gonna help challenge you and get you through the strategic planning process to help you build a theory of change so that you can show your solution to the problem in a logical and impactful way. Board relationships Very tough for lots of organizations. The relationship between the CEO and the board. Sometimes it’s a micro managing board. Even those even the relationship between staff and the board can sometimes be difficult. Um, intra board relationships. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of potential for problems there. There’s a lot of potential for problems, and there’s a lot of potential for solutions. Well, one leaves you doesn’t have to be that hard. One of the key things that I talk about in the book for developing a really strong board is putting the policies in place. You’re very clear about what the expectations are of your board. I think a lot of these challenges come in when it’s just not clear whose role is what and what boardmember Zehr supposed to do. So let me give you an example. Organizations that responded to MAE survey said that only 15% of their boards are involved in fund-raising. When asked what they would like their boards to doom, or of 66% of the executive director, said they would like their boards to be doing more friendraising. So that’s a huge disconnect. And I would, I would ask, those organizations will, what have you done to communicate with your board that you would like them to be doing more fund-raising? What have you done to establish what they’re fund-raising goals are in the board policy. What have you done to support their fund-raising efforts? Have you provided events that they could bring their contacts to? Have you given them the stories that they need to tell at a cocktail party so that they know how to make an elevator pitch? If you want your board to be involved in friendraising, you need to lay the foundation to make that happen. So I think a lot of board frustrations that executive directors have with their boards can easily be alleviated by just laying the foundation with clear policies and clear expectations, like the model of collaboration that you were talking about. You know, bottom up. You encourage that also in buy-in storytelling. And, um, I know, I’m not sure if if you had Well, all right. I was gonna say my favorite part was the storytelling part, but if you had to pick, that was my favorite. I’m not saying that’s the most important. Is it possible for you to say which of these and we are gonna talk about storytelling very moment very shortly. Um, which of the five areas like, most important. Are you willing to rank them like that? Or I just think they’re all equally. It’s like asking me to choose My My favorite child thinks they are all important, but I will say that that that kind of they do. I write about them in the order that I write about them because I think that they do. They do lay the foundation for success in that order. So you can’t tell a good story until you have the deed I’ve and the qualitative stories to show for that. And so that impact measurement and that testing process is really key to get there. So you did. You did think through the sequence of, uh that you were gonna, um, present these in the book? Yeah. Sequence is very important. Okay. Non-profit metoo tested the war haphazard, but you thought through when you’re writing a book is different. So you you actually you thought through this. Okay, I’m gratified to hear that. Okay, um, so let’s talk about the story telling you, like, again, bottom up. Absolutely. It has thio involved everyone around you. There’s an organization I interviewed called ideo dot or GE and they use design thinking thio help non-profits develop innovative solutions in their work. And they have this thing that they they implement on in their staff meetings called storytelling roulette where they spin the wheel like a wheel of fortune. They they spin it and then randomly, it will land on a story and they’ll pick a staff person in advance. Who on the spot has to tell that story as if they were pitching it to a donor or a potential partner. I’m not because a every staff member hasn’t necessarily been involved in all of those projects and doesn’t necessarily have that institutional memories of the way to build institutional memory. It’s also a way to build skills. Storytelling is not something that just happened. Storytelling happens with a lot of practice and, uh, and a lot of opportunities to practice. One of my dear friends, Nadine Burke Harris, has a Ted talk with three million views, and she runs an organization called the Center for Youth. Wellness focuses on toxic stress. When I interviewed her and asked her about that Ted talk, she said she practiced it for six months. This 10 minute talk and she said by the end of those six months her husband could have given the Ted talk for her because she had practiced it so many times in front of him. So I think it’s important that we remember to make the space for that practice, not only for ourselves as leaders of organizations, but also for all of our teams and our board, and even benefit. Yes, I wanted to go to the beneficiaries. I was, um you’re so you’re so ah, comprehensive. I was hoping you were gonna leave beneficiaries, and then I would sound smart and say no, but what about beneficiaries? But, um, yeah, well, we just have about a minute and 1/2 left before we wrap up, so talk about encouraging beneficiaries to tell. Well, I think when you’re working with beneficiaries to tell stories, I think there’s ah lot of things that organizations need to do to be very conscious of what it means to put a beneficiary in that position and to set them up for success. So it’s not always appropriate. And I think organizations have to do a lot of thinking to make sure, for example, that beneficiary is well, past and being part of the program, that they are in a better place to be able to tell that story. But there really is no more powerful story for unorganised ation to tell them someone who has successfully made their way through the program and has created a better life because of that outcome. And so we talked earlier about outputs versus outcomes. That is an outcome when you can show that someone’s life has changed, and hearing that from from the beneficiaries own mouth is really going to be your most powerful sales person for the organization, those air so compelling the, uh, I mean those could be riel tear jerkers literally. Um, it’s and they don’t have to be high production value, but they could be very, very compelling. Very, very moving. Absolutely. All right. We have to leave it there. I want to thank you very much. Kathleen Kelly. Janice. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Tony. It’s been my absolute pleasure. The book. Get the book for Pete’s sake. We just did a romp through it. You need the book Social startup success. Have the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference next week? I just don’t know. You know it’ll be worthwhile if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you. Find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Witness E. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com But koegler Mountain Software, Denali, fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, huh? Mmm. Do you run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, The entrepreneurial Web Tune in every Friday at noon Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. Right here on Fridays at noon talk radio dot N Y C aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti, non-profit Radio Fridays 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness. Um, Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant, and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Awakening Humanity. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 16, 2019: Manage Your Programs With A CRM & Co-Learning For Your Programs

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Jake Grinsted, Leah Kopperman, Kai Williams & Medha Nanal: Manage Your Programs With A CRM
The right CRM can help you run day-to-day program operations: track client relationships and outcomes; host trainings; manage certifications; organize transportation; and more. Our panel was recorded at 19NTC and they’re Jake Grinsted from Simply 360; Leah Kopperman with Keshet; Kai Williams at The International Wildlife Rehabilitation Council; and Medha Nanal from Top Cloud Consulting.





Debra Askanase, LaCheka Phillips, & Kevin Martone: Co-Learning For Your Programs
This 19NTC panel encourages you to look at a more collaborative training culture, which pushes the bounds of who is the educator. They’re Debra Askanase at Oracle NetSuite Social Impact; LaCheka Phillips with TechSoup/NGOsource and Kevin Martone from JCamp180.





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Transcript for 453_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190816.mp3 Processed on: 2019-08-17T15:38:37.521Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…08…453_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190816.mp3.32272577.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/08/453_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190816.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. I’m firing a listener. Steph Marie p. Left this iTunes review on March 11th 2018. Quote content is great. Okay, but universal. No. Gator cancels everything preceding it. Tony often chastises his guests or asks a question and then bulldozes them When they reply, it can get awkward and off putting. For example, a guest started off a response with good question, Tony. And he admonished the guest for saying that rude and weird. End quote. Steph, Marie P. Get off my show off. I want you to stop listening. I do not want you to be listening to my words. You don’t get me. I am in no way going to try to explain me to you because it would be over your head. You don’t have a sense of Well, maybe you do have a sense of humor. I’m not gonna go at home now. I’m not gonna go there. Maybe you have a lovely sense of humor. But you don’t share mine or you don’t even get mine. Let you don’t have to share it. You just have to understand it and you don’t. So I want you off the show. So here’s what I would implore you. I beseech you to do first. Unsubscribes Don’t stop yet. Don’t pause and stop yet. I want you to go. Whatever platform you’re listening is probably iTunes. That’s where your review was. Unsubscribes unsubscribes. Okay, now then you have to do that. Come back. Hit. Stop Not pause because we’re stopping. Stop and go away. Do not listen to this show again. Next thing I know, you’ll be chastising me because I’m lewd and weird to imaginary interns. You don’t get me and you never will. Please stop listening, Steph. Marie P. Get off my show. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. Now that Steph miree P is gone. I can say that with enormous confidence I’d be hit with favoritism if you beaned me with the idea that you missed today’s show Its program day manager program with a c. R m. The Rite CR M can help you run day to day program operations, track client relationships and outcomes. Host training’s manage certifications, organized transportation and Maur. Our panel was recorded at 19 NTC and there, Jake Grinstead from simply 3 60 Leah kopperman with Cash, Chi Williams at the International Wildlife Rehabilitation Council and Meta Channel from Top Cloud Consulting and Co. Learning for Your Programs. This 19 ntcdinosaur encourages you to look at a more collaborative training culture, which pushes the bounds of Who is the educator. They’re Deborah askanase at Oracle Met Sweet the Sheik, A. Phillips with Tech Soup, NGO Source and Kevin Martin from J. Camp 1 80 on Tony’s Take two Living Trusts Responsive by Wagner, C. P A is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission turned hyphen to DOT CEO. I feel so much better. Burden off my shoulders here is manage your programs with a C. R M. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 and T. C. You know that it’s the 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. You know that we’re coming to you from the convention center in Portland, Oregon. What you don’t know is that I am now with Jake Grinstead, Leah kopperman, Chi Williams and Meta Channel, and their seminar topic is not just for fund-raising anymore. Managing programs With C R M zsystems You also know that all of our 19 NTC interviews are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. Let’s meet the panel. They are again Jake Grinstead. He’s founder of simply 3 60 Leah kopperman, director of data and C. R. M at Kesha Chi Williams is the executive director at the International Wildlife Rehabilitation Council, and methanol is seated furthest from me. And she’s the principal at Top Cloud Consulting. Welcome. Happy to be here. Have all four of you. It’s a big panel, but way can accommodate Absolutely. Thank you. So I’m not sure is this is this, uh, let’s start down at the end with the metal. Is this is emerging, or is Am I just not aware that your C R M database can be used to manage programs? You’re welcome to say that I’m just not aware. Yeah. So it has been around for a while, but definitely in the nonprofit world, it is an emerging awareness that it can be used for a program metoo management. Okay. And what, Metta, Let’s stay with you. What do we need to have in place so that we can do this way? Just need us, C r m databases that it, or are there other things we need to have? No. So you have to have the right kind of serum because not all CR ends in the market right now are capable of supporting program data. So you need to have right tools and write features in the Sierra system to support this. Okay, Right kind of cr M. Okay. Uh, so we’ll come back to that because we have 1/2 an hour together. Um uh, let’s see. Hey, why don’t you sort of give us Ah, a headline and a lead? Uh, that anything more? You could say that to introduce us to this. Yeah, I think that while using serums for program management and it’s itself not new, it’s much more broadly recognized. My organization, I felt like even just four years ago, Coming on working on ours for five years ago, people were like, That’s Syrians are for fund-raising. And I’m like, No, this makes sense. This is how it’s gonna work for us. And I had this vision and I was able to find the people that work with, but it wasn’t a conversation anyone else was having. And now I go into a session and everybody’s like, Let’s talk about program management. So are you a pioneer or early adopter? Early A doctor. I think the pioneers were way before me. All right, All right. Leo, what’s the advantage of doing this? Well, I wanted to also remarked that the organization that I’m with Kesha we’ve been using C r. M to manage our program since 2012. So we were really early adopter Warren earlier. You weren’t. You sure you want a pioneer? Why can’t I personally wasn’t I was not with Kesha and 2012 with the organization. I would I would say so. Yeah, I think so. Okay. That’s not a scientific survey statement. It’s just got gut instinct. Think so? Okay. Yeah. Um, Lee also credits herself with being That makes it sound like nobody else believes it. I believe I do believe it. Teaching me how to sign a sign up for a Twitter. He had a start. My account on Twitter. Now we have Susan Chavez is my mind that the show and my company’s works from works as our social manager. But she was not the social manager in 20. We’re not sure where this 2014 or 15. We’ll have to look at what it will say. Joined. Right? Right. My name’s has joined it, I’m sure was maybe Susan can tell us. Okay, maybe she’ll look, I know it was not 16. I know. I’ve been on longer than 16. Okay. Uh, okay. And, uh, Jake, what’s the advantage to doing this? What? Why? Why? Why not just do it Separate different management for our programs? Sure. I think there are a few advantages of having a serum for non-profits programs, and one of them is allowing for more time for your program staff to really focus on what they do best. Focus on their passion, focus on why they were hired, and that’s to actually manage the programs that they have. So having a non-profit serum allows you to cut some of the administrative overhead that doing doing this type of work with multiple different systems, maybe on paper, maybe an excel, maybe in different databases. By bringing that together, you make it a lot simpler and cut down on that time. But what if the comparison is with ANAP location? That’s that’s designed for program management versus managing your program through the C. R. M? So I would argue that if it program is designed to manage your sorry if application is designed to manage the programs, it quite well might be a program crn that’s probably see around. We should probably back-up is giving you Siara here, Jake Constituent Relationship management. So it’s any application that helps manage the relationship that your organization has with your constituents and your constituents might be the people you serve in the fund-raising world. Obviously, it’s the donors and the people who help support you. But in the programme world, it’s those the people that are involved in your mission might be volunteers. It might be the people use serve. It might be others involved with whatever your mission is. All right. All right. So So since I got I gotta go, Leo. Because with grand grand, I’m sorry. I gotta go to Chi because of the grand theatrics that you gave Jake, I have to go back to you. So what are we? Wait, What are we talking about? Are we not talking about, Like, salesforce and razors edge yet for program management, right? We are we talking about Exactly. I would say that Razor’s edge doesn’t really support program blackbaud other blackbaud tools. D’oh! We’re talking about service. We are talking about a fund-raising C r m being used for a, uh, just just a c r M serum that theorems air, not natively just for fund-raising. Those xero ends there for any constituent management, although some are designed very much for fund-raising like Razor’s edge. But sales force. And that’s the reason my order, when we were doing all of our evaluations of many serums, they were out there in 2013. We ended up choosing that one because it was more of a platform that we could use for program management, Um, versus something that was just set up for fund-raising. But CR rims are for everything. I would argue that if you did not have a program cr em, you’re probably using sheets of paper or spreadsheets. That’s really the alternative. Okay. Okay. Well, that’s exactly what medicine to you have to have the right kind of cr m. Yes. Yeah, it’s time for a break, but, uh, Sam didn’t tell me. Now he did. Wagner CPS. They’ve got a free webinar on August 21st Fair labor standards act nuts, bolts and updates. Now, today is August 16th. So the odds of anyone listening live or archive, which means anybody, because that’s only two ways you can listen, if you could just say theon of anybody listening doesn’t matter. Live our archive. You’re wasting syllables here, Thea. Odds of anybody listening on August 21st are slim to xero. So watch the archive. Um uh, it’s a wagon or yeah, we call these waiting to call these things. These wagoner webinars webinars. So this wagon R is the Fair Labor Standards Act. Calculating regular rate of pay and overtime pay for employees or for yourself that counts. You count to understanding, paid versus unpaid time and a lot more. You’ll find this wagon are the archive thereof. At wagner cps dot com, you click resource is and then recorded events. Let’s do the live list or love. I feel like doing it early today. Um, starting native, starting domestic, I should say not. Maybe not native but domestic. Ah, Sacramento, California on Hollister, California and Tampa, Florida. And those were abroad will get their Hammond, Indiana, special Live listener love after Hammond, Indiana. Franconia, Virginia. Franconia, Alcohol Franconia. Know whether it is, um uh, no, that’s Peru. That’s abroad. I wish she would organize his better. Sam. Really? You could do a better job for me. What kind of support is this? It’s unbelievable. I don’t have interns or don’t even get producer support. So also all jumbled up between domestic and abroad. I gotta figure it out. Salt Lake City. All right, That’s, um I guess he would consider that domestic. Yeah. Salt Lake City, Utah Live. Listen, love. After you do New Bern, North Carolina Live love to the new burns. Ah, Hell’s Kitchen, New York. I love I love that Hell’s Kitchen shows up as a separate entity. It’s not New York, New York, it’s Hell’s Kitchen, and that’s the only neighborhood in New York where that happens. We don’t get we don’t see, um, Nomad or Dumbo or Upper East, but Hell’s kitchen specific. I love that. I admire that. How do you How do you do that helps get you probably even know what I’m ranting. I don’t even know what I’m talking about. Um Raleigh, North Carolina. Live love out to you as well. Cool. That’s a Carolina today. Um, Now let’s go abroad With which had a better organized list from Shanghai. Doesn’t do by continent during Times Hemisphere released. You could do atmosphere. That’s only four of those. For Christ sake, you could do atmosphere. It’s only four of them. Shanghai, Shanghai, China Showing how you with us often. Thank you so much for that For that loyalty. NI hao Ni Hao and Seoul SEOUL, South Korea Also so such loyal, loyal, live listener love the soul Annual haserot comes a ham Nida Mexico CITY, Mexico Witnessed our days when a star dies. Mexico City and Tehran, Iran. You’ve been checking in occasionally. Now, Tehran. Thank you for coming back. Um, our keep. Ah, Peru. That would be Ah, put yours up. Portuguese now? No, the only spanish. So I ve been a star days When a star days for arctic quip Peru Thank you for being with us. Um, that’s everybody abroad. And, uh so live lister, love. Thank you so much for being with us and the podcast pleasantries. Because we have over 13,000 people listening in the time shift and the pleasantries go out to you wherever we fit into your schedule. I’m grateful pleasantries to you, and we know that we are minus one. Where ah, 13. Like 13,500 minus one from now. Going forward. Not just this week. I’m not going to say her name anymore. Uhm And so why did I wait till you may be wondering why that we tell today this review from, uh, that person was march 11th 2018. I don’t check that often. I don’t I don’t look at the reviews like every month even, uh, but I have seen it. I have. I’ve seen it long before today. I just was ignoring it in the past. And then the last time I saw it, I don’t know. Whatever it was a month or so ago, it annoyed me. So So that’s why that’s why uh, no, I haven’t been annoyed for for these 18 months since March or something of last year. But I’ve been annoyed for the past week, a month or so, and now I’m over it. Therefore, we’re moving on to Ah, what we’re doing. We’re continuing, of course, with Jake Grinstead, Leah kopperman, Chi Williams and methanol talking about managing your programs with Sierra. One of the fundamental differences is that in fund-raising CR M in fund-raising world, right, The kind of fund-raising data that every organization maintains is fairly typical. So whereas for programs, that is a huge where I d And so your CNN system needs to be able to store and manage all those different kinds of data, that’s a prerequisite to be used as programs. Okay, Okay. Uh, so you were just backing up a little asking about, like, different kinds of Syrians. I’ve certainly worked in social service agencies where in the past they’ve had what’s called a case management system and that really is what the social service frontline staff would use to manage the clients that they work with. So that’s really very parallel Thio, the kind of idea that we’re talking about a program management system and the advantage of not having a separate program management system and a separate fund-raising system is often there’s overlap between who your constituents are, and somebody who participated in one of your programs may very well end up becoming a donor or somebody who participate. Somebody who’s a donor may become a volunteer, and if you’re managing your volunteer program and you’re managing your client base through the same system, then you have up to date information and email addresses. Postal address is interests, etcetera, and so you can use it both for the client and and for the fund-raising. All right, so I think I’m trainable here. But let’s make sure so you can have a generic C R M that will manage fund-raising and Andi program operations trainable. I would take this a step further and say, In addition to what Leo just said, your program crn might often be very helpful to your development. Your fund-raising department. There are so many times where your fund-raising team are going to need to ask the program team for certain statistics and reports and data about the programs that they run because they’re gonna need that for their grants and etcetera to do their fund-raising. And so if the data is in the same place. If everyone’s using the same tool, the same crn the development staff would be able to have access directly to the reports and the information about the programs that are being run without having to tie up program staff. Time to actually pull those that information separately. That’s another advantage of bringing those things together and what xero. OK, OK, in your program description. Have you done your program already? You have your on the downside. It’s great. Okay, um, nobody came with a glass of wine in the bar is open, even my drink. Okay, Jake, that is not water. I guess that’s vodka. Leah has a metal bottles. We don’t know what’s in that. Two women down the oak. That is already finished. I think I That’s Jim, not water. Alright, So good. I’m glad I’m not hindering the fun and excitement part of social part of 19 nineties E for any of you. Okay, so in your program, in your session description, you take off a whole bunch of things that can be run through a c. R. M. Tracking client relationships and outcomes run training’s manage certifications, organized transportation. Is it worth taking through. Is there enough to say about each of these about how the C R M should can be used to do each of those things? Or is that too much in the weeds? The way that we handled the panel was each of the four of us did like a case study, where we talkto sort of soup to nuts how we use our serum to manage one particular thing. I don’t think there’s enough time here to run through, but that that is how we handled it in case studies. My brief. I don’t know if you’ve got a little example of how shit uses when it might be helpful for sure so way. But we can. We could do brief examples. So you each have a different CR M doing something different. Yeah, because because all the organizations that we are working with or at our do different mission and Jake you’re the consultant here. No, I actually 36 from the founders simply for 60 were actually creating a C. R. M that is designed for programs. That’s why we started something for 60. I work from non-profit where we found it frustrating that we couldn’t find a good program. Cr m. And so with that organization I actually started and founded simply 3 60 to do that to fill that need. Okay, so in the session, I actually talks about one of our founding clients s O, That I use that as a case study and represented them talking about how having a program crn for them has been so helpful thing. American Camp Association of New York and New Jersey. Okay, Okay, I’m willing I’m willing to hear the case is from each of you, But you realize that we don’t have 75 minutes. So So I know on dhe. I appreciate that you aren’t all nodding, is it? But what happens when you start talking? You get into your stage hit, and all of a sudden you’re three minutes. Story becomes 12 minutes, and then we’re out of luck. So I have to cut off everybody else, and everybody will be pissed off at you. And they’ll wonder why they didn’t go to the drinks instead of coming here. Should have drinks. Why? I waste my time here because they didn’t get to tell the story. So everybody gets, uh, okay, so we’re 13 minutes. We’ll make this the longer sessions as 27 figure. We spent a minute bantering, so we’ll go to 28 which is about 15 divided by four. I’m impressed with math, but I haven’t finished it yet. 15 divided by four is less than four. It’s like three minutes and 1/2. So everybody gets about three and 1/2 minutes. I’m gonna I’m gonna try my best. All right? So everybody gets three minutes and 30 seconds on Duh. At the three minute mark, I’m gonna let you know that you only have 30 seconds left and we’re gonna hold you to this s o I since I feel bad. That meta is sitting at the end doesn’t have a devoted Mike. And I feel second bad for, um, for Kai, who also is has to share my So let’s start at the end. With Metta, you have three and 1/2 minutes to tell the story at, um top cloudgood. The top cloud consulting shared in the Okay. Get closer to the study of one of the clients I work with. The organization worked in the areas of health and wellness. They programs such as individual and group therapy for physical humans on wellness programs. So before I started working with them, they were managing their data. Alden spreadsheets. It was spread all throughout the organization with all the program teams. Every time that the team’s wanted to pull any kind of report, they were pulling that out of individual spreadsheets and manually formatting into the desert former and that was taking them days. Thio create a report. So number one it was a giant waste of organizations. Resource is on number two. Everybody knew that pulling the report was like pulling teeth, so they were not even using reports as much as they should. So after we moved there, they tied to the Syrian system. The reports were quick, instant, instantly available up to date, not for five days old on the organization started using reports as a feature much more frequently because it was available so much more easily. That’s so concisely I didn’t get to give you a warning. Uh, you’re here a little more You want to say Okay, tell our stories, and maybe, maybe maybe maybe the host will develop some questions. You black lackluster. Who’s No? No, you still get your three minutes? You still get your three? What? I say three and 1/2 actually. Three minute warning. He’s cutting it down, so I don’t know, You know, meta exceed XL, but you could be You’re welcome to be lackluster. Please. OK, eso I work with the International Wildlife Rehabilitation Council. We provide training and resource is on wildlife rehabilitation. We have membership. We have classes, we have certification. We have a practicum. We use our serum to manage all that often. It’s the same people doing all of that. And then maybe they have an extra $5 they’re helping us out with the $5. Or maybe they’re volunteering for us. So we get to see all of that before we have C R. M. We had an old system and we actually lose data. Wait, hold on. I’m sorry, Amy. Sabat Ward, Stop distracting the guest on top of radio. You had your chance. You had your shot. Just distracted CEO of intent is distracting, distracting Leah and J everybody making this wave on camera. All right, I’ll spot you an extra 15 2nd All right? Yeah. So before we had our modern serum. We were losing data like we have a registration that would get lost because the system in between one server and the computer, it would just disappear. So we have people showing up for classes and we have no record of them. Really. A lot of issues with trust, all sorts of problems. So with the modern serum were able Thio one have everything in one place. I know to trust our data. We haven’t come directly from our website into our system. We’re able to track our measure, tracked measurements, assessment of how the students are doing, how they’re engaging with us. It’s It’s quite an interesting set up, Andi, I guess I want to mention one interesting thing we found as we talk about our case studies because they’re all very different. You know, I’m contracting with hosts and doing sending certificates to students and all the stuff that happens in between there. But we found this similar framework. We are all even though our products are very different. The steps we need to go to are very similar and so we’re hoping to kind of create some data models for other non-profits to dues to be ableto have program management CR ems. And how are you? How are you collecting that? Well, I’m working with a couple of different groups on that, but user user studies just people. It’s really just people like the four of us getting together and walking through these scenarios and saying, Oh, okay. This flows into this, which is this, and this is always an assessment piece. Even if you might not call it assessment. This is your registration, your enrollment, something that sort. This is your program piece. Oh, this might be an add on. If you have a case management your assessment might be Did they find a resolution? But there’s these really core similarities, and so I’m excited to see where that goes. Okay, I appreciate that. You actually did accept my admonition. Thio keep things concise. Haven’t given a three minute warning yet. Okay, now, Leo, don’t blow it, okay? I’ll do my best. Really? Okay, so So it kiss it. We air the LGBT Q Jewish organization in the US, where national and focus on our mission Shin is too have full inclusion of LGBT Q Jews in Jewish life and one of our programs that we do is where we train the leaders of Jewish organizations to have more inclusive environments for sorry for Jews who are participating. And it’s not the water over the vodka. So we that we do in sort of regional programs and we do a year long program, say, in Chicago, where the Jewish Community Center and the bunch of synagogues and the, uh, I don’t know if there’s a Jewish community foundation. Whatever the Jewish organizations are in the area, they all commit to this year long program and we offer them training and help them set goals to make their organizations more inclusive. And we provide them with coaching services over the course of the year and the way that our Sierra Miss and then at the end of the year, they you know, sort of report back to us through a survey about, uh, how they felt about being participants. And so the way that we manage that program with our serum and we happened to use sales force is that we way use existing data in the sales force. Instance toe understand what communities might be the next ones to offer a program in right Well, look, we’ll see. OK, we have enough people, maybe in Cincinnati, that maybe that’s the next community. Well, where will offer a program? And then we can do marketing using that C R M to the all the Jewish professionals working in Cincinnati and and advertise the program and reach out and say, We’re going to be running this and will you enroll? Then we have a sign up process where organizations will sign up and add the that information about their organizations baseline measures of where their organization is at in terms of Do they have gender neutral bathrooms? Do they have a new LGBT clue of LGBT affirmative group in their community? Do they have a bullying policy? You know, all these different kinds of measures. We asked them up front when they fill out the form and they tell us where they are, is a baseline. And then they, during the program, set a bunch of goals. Those all their goals go into our serum and then our coach has access to all those goals and works with them over the course of the year. Two. Help them reach those goals. All those girls also populate a dashboard that we have in the serum, that our executive leadership can look at any time and see 80% of the current leadership project. Participants are you know, they have started on 40% of their goals. They are still waiting to start on 10 and they so we can see they can see the progress without having to ask anybody. That’s just there in the dashboard. And our fund-raising team can also use that to make a case to a donor because it’s just right there in front of them. They can log in any time and do that so and then at the end they do a survey and we and we find out one of the things we want to do is change mind set, openness, three minute warning, okay. And we want to change the mindset of the participating organizations. So we asked them at the end did they see new opportunities for LGBT inclusion in their communities. And one of our measures is what percentage of organizations reported that and we have about 80% of our participants reporting that they did see new opportunities for inclusion. So it’s been very successful all right, Jake. So yes. So one of my founding clients, the American Camp Association of New York and New Jersey. They are an affiliation of summer camps in the United States, and their mission is to help in rich lives through the camp experience. So they help train camp staff. They help parents figure out which camps to send their children to and just generally promote the can’t summer camp experience in United States. Um and so I want to touch on another potential benefit of a program serum that we haven’t been touched on already. But we haven’t properly articulated yet, which is the benefit that it can give to constituents themselves. So the people who are actually benefiting from the program can really benefit from their organization having a program xero. And I’m gonna give you an example of how at the American Camp Association of New York and New Jersey, they have this amazing program. This wonderful lady there named Rene, who is in charge of helping parents find the right summer camp for their children. And she works oftentimes one on one with parents to help them find the camp. It would be good for them and so what we were able to do once we had all of the camp, all the member camps that are affiliated with this organization into a program. Crn we were able to start exposing that information on their website directly and gave parents a chance to go to the website, fill out a form as to what their children might be interested in. You know how long the camp should be, How much it should cost nb be able to actually search for summer camps right there on because they had now this one see Iran, where all of their camps were together. They could trust that the information that was e-giving that was being given out on the website would be accurate to these parents. So then parents could actually indicate that they were interested in the camp camps, then had a member’s portal through the sea Iran that they could log into on dhe. Then camps could see which parents had indicated their interest. They could also now register for training events. They could basically take advantage of all the benefits that the was giving them. So by using simply 3 60 in this case, they were actually able to give both their member camps and the parents that they served better access to their own information to the information is in the system and better serve them with the programs that they have. Can anybody else site benefits to the those they’re serving constitutent people themselves? Well, maybe not people, but the environment. The what? I like Jakes. He didn’t say it, but he has one aboutthe texting. Oh, sure. So another organization I’ve worked with has they run programs for kids, toe, get kids out into the countryside for the summertime incredible organization on. And they they have bus loads of children that get on the buses at the Port Authority. But you work for me, work for any schools, or is this all play time for this is this is a thing. So what happened is I was in college in London and I found, became a counselor to summer camp, and that was it. Camp was like the rest of my life. I was obsessed with this. So this organization runs five summer camps, and the kid’s got on buses. They went out to the countryside, but then, when the buses came home There was often this situation where parents might be late to pick up their children or they didn’t know exactly when the buses would arrive. Maybe the buses would come early. And so, by using a program, Sierra and we suddenly had this ability to send out mass text messages. Two parents, as the buses were sort of a narrow waves. Often, arroway whatever and say, Hey, just so you know, your child’s on their way home, Can’t wait to see you. Please make sure your at this place at this time and that we hadn’t even anticipated that this could be something we could do with a program. Xero. So what we actually talked about in our in our session was this idea that there are sometimes these unexpected benefits as well on dhe. This was a great one for us. Yeah, you’ve been You’ve been listening for a while. You have a question, But you have a question you like to ask. Oh, okay. You know what? I’m gonna shut you out. What’s your name? Joanne. Joint. Crabtree joined Crabtree from Washington from Washington non-profits in Vancouver, Washington State of Washington. So Joanne missed a session not just for fund-raising anymore managing programs with the arm zsystems and came here to listen to this. 30 minutes, 30 minutes. Short version. Thank you, Joanne. Thank you very much. Check out non-profit radio. We have way. Have lots of good panels. Not This isn’t the only one we do lots of good stuff. Thank you, Joanne. Okay, Um, we just have Yeah, okay. Anybody else want to shout out? Ah, a constituent benefit. Because I think that we’re here for the people or the environment or the animals. We’re, you know, we’re serving anybody else Want to shout out a constituent benefit, but has to be in, like, 30 seconds? Okay, Get much closer in one of the organizations that I worked with the program data and fund-raising data was separated on the program. Later was once we combined the two systems and brought the program later into the CIA room along with the fund-raising data, it’s suddenly help. The organization will stop, get along with each other much better, because previously, there was a lot of this manual data exchange between the two teams and the teens were frustrated, like concentrated, questing and not receiving the data that they want benefit not only to the recipients, but to the provider’s as well. All right, we got to leave it there. Thank you so much. Thanks, Tony. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you’re welcome. They are Jake Grinstead, founder of simply 3 60 Leah kopperman, director of data. And see our Emmett Cash Guy Williams, executive director of the International Wildlife Rehabilitation Council. And Mitya Nadal, principal at Top Cloud Consulting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 19 NTC. Thank you, Joanne. Joanne Crawford. Thank you. Are our audience member for the panel. And of course, all our panels are brought to you by our partners. That act blew in while we’re here in 1990 Sea ActBlue free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks so much for being with us. Need to take a break. See how Sam gave me the proper proper See when I get good support, the show runs. If I could just get decent support from everyone, we need to take a break. Oh, I said that host sucks. Cougar Mountain software, Cougar Mountain software quote We use Denali Fund for non-profits. It’s easy to track how much is in each fund fairly simple to use, and the training to be helped the training to be very helpful. I need an intern so bad, so I have somebody to blame for this ship. Copy. It’s unbelievable, and the training is very helpful and thorough. Customer service has been responsive and caring. End quote. That’s Laurie D. Oh, God, Lord, he’s from a church. I’m sorry. I don’t know if Laurie Listen, Um, another quote. All the features of a sophisticated fund accounting system at a reasonable cost. End. Quote. That’s Kim T. From Lawrence Township Cookie Mountain software. That’s what this is all about. They have a free 60 day trial. You’ll find that on the list in our landing page at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now time for Tony’s Take two living trusts. You start your plan giving program with charitable bequests. That’s definitely the place to start. You’ve heard that mantra many times from my lips. If you want to go further and you don’t have to, you could just stop with requests and have a very respectable, planned giving program. But if you want to go further living trusts or revocable living trust. That’s an excellent next step. It’s easy for everybody to understand, for you and for your donors. My Living Trust video is at tony martignetti dot com, and that is Tony’s Take two. Let’s do a live listener love update since we did it early Now more people have checked in Ann Arbor, Michigan is with us. New York, New York, New York. See, I’m sorry you can’t be in Hell’s Kitchen in New York, New York If you were in Hell’s Kitchen, you would have got you. We got shouted out as Hell’s Kitchen, but you’re elsewhere. Just New York, New York. But glad you’re with us. Live, love to you. And also Osaka, Japan, Japan. Checking in. Thank you, Konnichi wa and young son, South Korea. On your haserot comes a ham Nida. Thank you for joining us Live love to all of our live listeners. And now it’s time for Cole earning for your programs. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 1990. See, that’s 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. We are in the Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. All of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me Now our Deborah askanase, Latika Phillips and Kevin Martin. Seated next to me is Debra. She’s the social impact manager for capacity building programs at Oracle. That Sweet Shikha is a program manager at NGO Source and grantmaker. Success four. NGO Source and grantmaker maker Success at Tech Soup, NGO Source and Kevin Martone is technology program manager at Jay Camp 1 80 a program of the Harold Grinspoon Foundation that was the longest I’m out of breath already with dellaccio sources into Kevin is a program, but he’s not the foundation, but he’s a program Oracle Met Suites. Two words. I’m exhausted already. Introductions. OK, your program topic was Reinvigorate your programs through multi directional learning. Let’s start with down the end. Kevin Martin, Please let’s define our terms. What are we talking about? This multi directional learning? Great. So Avery jargon e-giving drug in jail on non-profit radio. It will get the three of you out of jail in our session. We definitely We started pretty early explaining what that actually meant. So Okay, so I’m not the only one I know So So, um, really, the the session in this topic is really about his, you know, Traditionally, sessions are one way there’s someone on stage, whether it’s a lecture or in a webinar or some other training’s environment, who all the knowledge is going from that person who’s the expert to the audience. The learner, right? So multi directional is. I’m not assuming that that person has all the knowledge in the room that instead you’re embracing the fact that everyone in a training program has knowledge and expertise. And so you have learning from learning toe Lerner, Lerner, the teacher and teachers. So it’s all different direction, really, So So can I expect to pay less for conferences in the future. And I’m part of the training staff. I should be Compton right Free hotel E. Get free airfare. Compton. That would be good. I’m teaching. I’m in the audience, so it’s still hard work. It’s hard work. Thio create facilitated session that does multi directional, But I’m in the audience. I gotta work hard too. I should be to learning more my voice just alright, theoretical. I’m learning more. All right. Um, Jessica, why don’t you help us? Uh, bring us into the topic little bit. Give it like a headline in the lead. So why we needed this session? Well, we definitely needed the session. I think that it’s time to begin the show organizations how how to turn traditional events into something that is Maur engaging something on opportunity for everyone to contribute to these different solutions. And I was needed for organizations non-profit or for-profit. But I was as to be a part of it because I attended two different multidirectional events through next week. Oracle build a thon events of four NGO sores and in that in those opportunities for me because they were multidirectional and because it wasn’t just someone just giving me information. Given my team information for us to download and and to turn around and apply, I was actually with a team of people I was learning at the same time they were learning, and my goal throughout this whole process was to basically eliminate the time or decrease the time living in time. But decrease the time that I was spending on a billing for NGO source. And when I started this process, it took me over 30 hours a month. So process building for our team. And because of the multi directional opportunities with nets with Oracle, I’ve been able to get down my building process to less than 10 hours. Now, had I been in just a one on one session with another person, it probably would have taken me a lot longer to get to where I am now. But we had we working in teams, and so we’re all learning we were all contributing to this process. So that’s how that’s how I see it working. And I think that if we begin to we non-profits begins to look at what we’re considering. Traditional events, for instance, Webinars and think of ways that how we can actually turn those upside down to have Maur engagement to have more involvement from everyone. One. Okay, Debra, um, this sounds to me like anarchy. Why not? Why not gonna be a free for all? Well, trouble, trouble. It always sounds like gold, but it isn’t. The session was designed with the belief that everybody in the room has the answers. Right. So you walk into whatever you’re designing, whatever programmer event you’re designing with this theory that at the end of it, everyone’s experience is so much more enriched because his answers aren’t coming from the quote unquote experts. They’re coming from the people who are also doing the work out in the field or living the experience. And they have just as much validity with what they have to share as others. So a good facilitator. You have more of a facility, Kevin. Kevin was getting to this. You have more of a facilitator than a presenter. There can be some presentation elements. Like a good facilitator has figured out how to make the experience a shared facilitated latto next-gen facilitate these. I have facilitated you. Have you facilitated or just attend? Have Kevin Martin still three facilitators here? Well, as well as attendees in Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I’m focused on. Yeah, one step at a time. I know. I just stands multiple. We all can learn from each other and you multi directional. All right, is co learning the Is that just a synonym for multi directional or is co learning something different? Anybody? I would say it’s elearning. It’s similar. Um, so yeah. All right, so we’re expanding the idea of who’s the present? We’re gonna learn from elearning elearning for everybody. Um, the advantages. I made them clear. We all have something to contribute. Not only the person on the lectern, but we all Okay, so should we talk about how to organize your next staff training? That’s so so that so that it can be co directional slash multi directional slash red, amber green. Kind of learning. I don’t know what traffic lights. No way. Like our next staff training. So I remember our wedding too small and midsize non-profits. That could be just two people. They’re called learning all the time, but let’s say it’s university. Some Let’s colleges, universities, hospitals call mid size. They’re doing lots of staff trainings. They have faculty meetings. They have dr meetings. They have, uh, other provider meetings. Learnings. Training’s right in service. We can We can use this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. At our session, we actually have people to read is I’m just nothing. All right. Even though I suppose the, uh but all right, I’m stuck in the old model like I’m a dinosaur. I mean, an anachronism. Um, the person at the I’m gonna put in health care setting. But the person on stage has her master’s degree in nursing degree. She has a master’s degree in nursing. She’s got an MBA, and staff is all you know. They’re the B s ends and the R ends. No masters degrees. We still should not all be learning from the person with the MBA and the Russian downstage. And we should also be we not all should be learning from the person with the MBA and the master degree in nursing. Doesn’t she have the most into a part in the room where we’re just all a bunch of B s ends and our ends? I would say that well, number one, there is still a place for the traditional, right? There’s gonna be times where somebody is the expert who’s coming in, and the goal of that session is to get their knowledge to other people. But in the example that you just gave, those are ends who were in the crowd they have experienced in the field. And so some of that experience might be helpful to add to what the expert is saying may potentially in more theory, where’s they have more on the ground experience so they can share that with each other and with the presenter. And like never says that enriches everyone’s now the thing that was a bad example. Also that ahead of the training right, there’s this belief. The expert often has the belief of what the people in the audience want to learn. And so there’s work ahead of the training, with Cole earning as well where you can ask people. Well, what would you like to be happening in the training? And what would you like to get out of the training? And I believe that’s a piece of it, too. That’s multidirectional where that their their direction is coming from their audience. Okay, okay, let’s start with Jessica because it’s been a while since you got a chance, Doc. So we’re going to set up this staff in service training? Um, let’s keep it in the health care vicinity. What we wear. Deborah’s just saying lead. There’s lead time preparation time. How do we get started setting up our next staff training this way? Um, great question. And we did talk about this in our session I raised for I feel like for great points. Okay, They were they were not ego problem. It’s good thing we stuck you in the middle. So s so to get started. My recommendation was the number one. It’s the first of all. Think of the roadblocks. What roadblocks do you think? Well, actually, let me if I can rewind just a bit, I’d say that the number one step would be to discuss what is the goal? What is the overall world coming together? What is what do we want to get out of this? Okay. And then from from that, then start to think about what are some of the roadblocks that would actually hinder us from turning this traditional event into a multi directional. What are some potential role blocks? And then I said that we need to think about the time, the time. That is gonna the time that is going to take for this to happen. What are the time restrictions for this? What time needs to be invested in the beginning? Because I know. And for me, when I participated in the opportunities with Oracle Net suite, there was so much time invested into our team beforehand. I mean, at least 10 hours, and so that’s something to think about. You know? Are you willing to invest that time and then distributing that, distributing those responsibilities? And then I say that we need to think about what are some of the disadvantages actually of flipping and event, because there could be, You know, as Kevin said, there is definitely still a place for those traditional events. So we have to think about that. And then, of course, what are some of the advantages? So I think once you map out those four things in addition to the goal, I think that’s definitely a great a great start. So in the instance where we are having a you said, that’s a staff meeting and we’re gonna have something. So then again identify what is the goal? What are we trying to learn? And then, I think, identify people within the community who have some experience in that they may not be an expert, so to speak, but they have a lot of experience, and so I think that that’s also helpful. And then there. I think that it’s also helpful to have people who may not necessarily have hands on experience, but they do have some knowledge of what we’re talking about, because then they also have, uh, some, you know, they’re able to make some type of contribution. Okay. Okay. Uh, Debra, what are what are some of the potential roadblocks that mentioned might exist? Thio Converting your training thio, multi directional, multi directional multidirectional. Debating what the training is, of course, will be different road blocks ahead of time. There’s the time that you put into it by redesigning, rethinking, getting out of your space that you’re used to thinking about. I think that’s hard. It’s also it can be challenging to get buy-in from your organization for this new kind of not only just programming event, think about like a fundraiser that you’re having. How would you incorporate it multidirectional in that If there’s a near some training element of that, it can be challenging to get some buy-in. The other roadblocks that ah, that could happen is so you have the multi directional training and it turns out the other directions are not so interested in contributing right. What happens then? I think that that’s very real. That has never actually been my experience Does That has never actually happened. But you do have sometimes less participation than you would desire. For example, time for our last break turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories, as well as build support for your work for your mission. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. There a turn hyphen to dot CEO. Finally, a sponsor message that was uneventful. Chase got butt loads more time for Cole earning for your programs. I want it. Well, I’m gonna go to Kevin and I want to talk about some of the crew’s some of the advantages of doing this aside from what we’ve already identified a few times, everybody learning from everybody else. And there’s so many different perspectives in the audience, and we bring all those perspectives in What are there other psycho social advantages that we haven’t talked about? Whatever. I mean, I would say things you just talked about are the main advantages. But I know those are off the table. Yeah, so for in terms of our attentions fan, I think I know leaving a lot of sessions and helping with managing conference conferences. Phones come out pretty early in a lecture. And so, by having these multi directional options where you stop speaking from the stage and you give everybody option the top talk and share it gets them back engaged in the energy level gets up often in the session. That seems to be the other big. Yeah, I could see different voices. I mean, I know when I speak, I have not done go learning, of course. Not sure that I ever will. But big ego ego problems, you know, But, um, irrespective. So what I’ve done so far, You know, I noticed attention perks up when I start asking questions. I started asking, and I don’t I don’t like to leave questions till the end. I take questions. So I guess I should say, When I start accepting questions, people start raising their hands. There’s different voice, you know? Said, Let’s start popping up the other. The other half of the audience wakes up, you know, I’ve got results to speak of it. That was funny. Labbate would have to sleep off the street. Nobody, nobody, nobody Just take it seriously. I probably I could see I think that is true. I could see that. At least they weren’t using their phones way. You know, I just point I do see voices or, you know, people broke up with other voices are heard throughout the room in questions. Yes. We’re gonna mention think about the traditional weapon off. Right. And you were right. And you can see your analytics. Where, like, Oh, look at all these people. They’re not Actually. Live your weapon on what you can’t say. You can see. So if you can think of turning the webinar upside down dafs multidirectional learning, I suspect the engagement will go away. Okay. Okay. Um, time limits time. Need other Latika. Talk about that. Okay, let’s let’s go to That’s our preparation. So where do we go now? It’s a day off. Are we in day of way. You know what? There was one thing some, uh mentioned pulling. You talk about pulling in advance, finding not only what you want to learn, but whether whether people will participate, can you? Let’s talk about how do you find out whether people will actually participate? So you don’t end up one U unit directional when it’s you intended go. Directional defendant Multi direct depends on what it is for the build with on events that we run, for example, we make it really clear. First of all, we assign a team captain on the net sweet side. And then we assign a point of contact on the non-profit side. And we say at the end of this event, you will have to present not the employees but the actual non-profit customers so that they present their learnings to the other customers and we sort of designed the day. So there are no surprises. It’s really clear this is what’s going to happen if you’re participating in it. And so I think you complain. I mean it that way, where everybody walks in with a showed expectation of what’s gonna happen. Okay, Okay. I was envisioning an event that’s different where it’s not all everybody presents at the end. But we’re the role learning from each other during Kevin run by an event like that can happen. Okay, How do you make sure that audience members are gonna participate in the way I just described? I think I mean, it’s well liked. Ever said it’s definitely part of its preparation. So like there’s actually a book called The Art of Gathering by Preah Parker. And she talks about the meeting or the training or whatever the gathering is. Starts as soon as you invite someone and yours should be spending time preparing them to let them know So, for example, there’s a there’s a communications training that I do. And in one of the first communications I have with any of those participants, I asked them to send a photo of themselves. And I’m very clear. I’m saying, when we do webinars when that photo shows up, that means you have to speak. And so it’s like you’re gonna get called on. And so it’s sort of prepping them to say It’s not just me talking. You have to be ready. T share your experience. And so there’s little steps like that you could do in advance to just prime them for when they get there that they’re gonna be speaking and not just listening. Okay, Okay, what do you do? Anything. Anything different in terms of preparing the audience? E. I think that it’s also good to identify everyone’s role. So if we are looking at the model that we’ve talked about teacher, teacher, the Lerner, Lerner, the teacher and learn it’s a learner. But even within that, I think that rolls should be defined for day of plain that a little bit. So when we participated in the build a thon, it was very important for us. Well, for me, toe have a note taker. There was so much information being exchanged, and it was just impossible to gather information to retain it and also apply it all at the same time. So there was one person that we designated to be one that was actually documentation. So that way, when we leave, we have steps. We have everything documented for the future and to move forward. And I also think that it’s important to identify who is actually going to be. If it’s if it’s an event set up where you can actually begin to apply and move forward with action steps at that time, that I think it’s important to have who is going to be that person? Luckily, we were able during the building down to actually go live with a lot of the different things that we were building, you know, we didn’t have to wait for testing. We were able to go live with that. But it was important to identify who was gonna be that person. Also, to identify who’s going to be in charge of accountability and follow-up. Because once we leave here, then then what happened? So it’s important to know what the next steps are. And did this actually work? Was this really beneficial? And it’s hard to really? Well, I was going to say it’s hard to tell day of for me. I I knew at that that day of the building time that this was very beneficial for my team. I just knew it. But you actually really see the results weeks and months after the fact. So the follow-up is very important. So just identifying rolls and who’s doing what, even though we’re all learning and we all have the answers. But then how else are we contributing here? All right, all right. So we go to a day off now. Okay. Let you go. Stay with you. What? What is this? What does it look like? Day off is It’s like this is the room, like, start with the room. Is it set up the same way with a traditional seminars. Yes, it set up the same way it could actually be set up in and broken off into groups that I don’t really think that there is a right or wrong way to set up something like that. I think that if it is set up in a traditional, for instance, classroom style or meeting south, I think that you can also even incorporated a workshop section where people actually kind of break off. So I think that that’s fine. I don’t think that the way that this set up is that Okay, that was a question. Well, it was interesting to me. I’m a newcomer. Yeah. In our session, they were in the traditional meeting style set up. And when we asked them to do some of the breakout work, right, the co learning, we thought we said, Turn to the person next to you. We said sorry. Away from the like, turn to the person next to you. And instead they all said, Well, can we just get up in form groups based on what we want to talk about? And they did. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, anarchy way. Well, let’s just go with it. Well, yeah. Community wants it. We’re supposed to hold it. It’s supposed to be supposed to be learner, too. What did you say? Audience to learn a teacher. I was wondering if you’d said no. You lose all your bona, fide, all your credibility Credibility. Yeah. No, it was so much fun, to be honest, I don’t know. I’m lecturing. We’re doing it my way. Um, okay. What else? What else do you want to go, Debra Day of? Tell me about what they have. Looks like we still got a few more minutes. Why don’t you want to give me a model? Work with her? You wouldn’t listen. General Health care. Mom, Your healthcare mind your model. Our nurses, nurses training day on on infection prevention, post surgery. So a couple of key pieces start with sending expectations. Make sure you have different voices the day off, and then make sure that there’s time built in for the teacher. Loner, loner, loner, loner, teacher. Right. So if you start with setting the expectations that setting up the room at the beginning, what’s gonna happen is structured time now, as Lucia was describing. But is it always where there’s structured time for the cold learning or you can’t just raise your hand and say, I have a point that I had used my downstage hand again. I have a point that, uh, that I want to make to the group. It doesn’t work like that. I think that’s informal elearning if you want to set it up for sort of formalized elearning that I do think we need some structure. Okay, Yeah. And so once you set up the day and then perhaps you’ve set the stage for what is actually gonna happen. So maybe there is a little bit of a training for 15 minutes. In the beginning, that’s like, this is the information you have to know. And then and then the important pieces. Well, how are you going to take that and add to it by the goodness of the intelligence of the people in the audience? And you have to build. You have to bake that in in some way, whether it’s an activity and there’s lots of great books on, like how to plan these kinds of activities where people learn from each other, um, or whether it’s an ideation exercise right and people spitball ideas. And then they turn to each other and talk about them. And then they iterated again, whatever it is. So that’s their learning from each other. And then at the end of the day, there has to be some way in which the learning is consolidated. So there’s the learning, Frito, that happens, happen stance in different groups. But then they have to learn from each other. Like, how did the groups each develop? And how did they exchange of information with each other? So you have to You just have to organize it. Facilitated is there Is there a resource that you gave out or that we can refer people to their white paper? Awesome, Reese. Okay, what is it? Tell us. Where can we find I? Actually, the first name that I can’t That was the multi multi directional bingo card. Okay, I know. It’s just basically a It’s a chart. And we, um we list 88 different traditional events, and then we have every every dynamic teacher to learn a learn a teacher Lerner, Lerner and so in the chart, the goal was to have the participants took him. Plead how feels different exchanges are happening for each one of these different traditional events. And so, yeah, we do wear working. Listeners find that it’s on. It’s in the collaborative, knows that it is in the collaborative notes. So you go to end 10 dot or GE go to the euro in the 19 multi-channel half, and then you know you’re well, we’re in 1980 CEO, and then your your session hash tag is multi path. Okay? And that’s where this resource is. That bingo card called a bingo card anymore. It doesn’t look like you find only because we were using that as our as our game as I workshop piece help the because depends to begin to start rebuilding their events. All right, we’re gonna leave it there. We’ve identified the resource. We’ve defined what the anarchy looks like. So I encourage you do not have the ego that I have and actually attempt this. Try this because we can all learn from each other. You couldn’t learn from each other. There wouldn’t be podcasts. That’s what much Give your altro out your outro. Deborah askanase, seated next to me is social impact Manager for capacity building programs. at Oracle Net. Sweet Machiko Phillips, his program manager for NGO source and grantmaker success at Tech Soup, NGO Source and Kevin Martin is the technology program manager for Jay Camp 1 80 which is a program of the Harold Grinspoon Foundation. Thank you so much, Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks to you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 19 NTC. All are 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact Thanks for being with us next week. Another good one. No firings. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com Responsive by Wagner c. P A is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com by Cougar Mountain Software The Knowledge E fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profit tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show Beyond potential. Live Life, Your Way on Talk radio dahna N Y C. I’m the aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Friday’s 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com are you a conscious co creator? 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Nonprofit Radio for January 25, 2019: Courageous Communication

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Maryanne Dersch: Courageous Communication
Maryanne Dersch says your nonprofit may be codependent and it’s stifling your communications. Are you afraid to stand out? Do you prefer middle-of-the road content to driving on the sidewalk? She may be right. She’s the author of the book, “Courageous Communication.”

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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Non-profit Radio Big Non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. My friend the Scarecrow just got a promotion. She’s outstanding in her field. I just heard that today I got I stole that from a bank. A za bank joke. Um, I’m glad you’re with me because I’d be thrown into trauma nap. Tia, if I had to breathe while you told me you missed today’s show Courageous communication Mary and er sh says you’re non-profit maybe co dependent and it’s stifling your communications. Are you afraid to stand out? Do you prefer middle of the road content to driving on the sidewalk? Occasionally she may be right. She’s the author of the book Courageous Communication on Tony’s Take two Insider yet responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled. Tony Dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com Bye. Tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four, four nine nine nine What a pleasure to welcome Mary Anderson to the studio from St Louis. XI is founder of Courageous Communication. She works with Non-profits to move from operating out of fear and scarcity to confidence and abundance. So they attract like minded donors and raise more money. She’s author of the book Courageous Communication. How Co dependence Is Making your Non-profit brand Boring and what to do about it. Marianne has a shoe fetish, a diet Coke fetish. And she sings karaoke E, which I call Carrie. Hokey. Ah, you’ll find her, her company, her book and her fetishes at marianne. Derschau dot com. And she’s at Marianne Derschau. Welcome to the studio. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. We’re gonna talk about coke and shoes and all kinds of thank you for coming in from St Louis. Thank you. I’m glad I made it. Yes. Your seven hours delayed yesterday. Yes. You got a lot of purple going on? Yes. Kruckel, hair, lips, nails. Yes. Okay. I just I just goingto embody my brand. That’s right. Live the brand for sure. Yes. You’ve got to be courageous. So Okay, um, co dependence you feel that organizations, maybe a little co dependent and you wanted to move away from that, Teo Courage. Yes. And I actually the thought of this concept in the therapist office when we were talking about co dependence, which the simple definition is when you subvert your needs for the needs of others. Right. So you’re not doing what’s right for you because you’re too busy doing what’s right for others. And so it’s that weight that we can’t be kind giving people. It’s just when that when we are subverting our needs, which builds resentment right in our personal lives. So I was looking at that as an organizational issue. I’m thinking, Wow, a lot of my clients are subverting their needs for the needs of their donors, right? So they are not doing and saying what would be right? Because they’re afraid of someone might what someone might think, right. So it’s all way they’re focusing on the loss, not the wind. So that’s when you talked about moving from fear and scarcity. So that is a lot of that Ideas like, if we say or do something wrong, something bad is gonna happen. We have to like Speaker act a certain way because we want to appeal to, you know, this group of people and that’s usually around around money. Okay. Okay. All right. And, uh, your therapist? No background? No, no. I was in therapy. I have a team of mental health professionals. You guide me through my, my, my actual therapist, actually just told me I should cut back to wait. Go back to five days a week now. So? So I’m getting I’m not After eighteen years, right? Things were getting better. Yeah. Um, All right, So what is this courageous communication? You know, of course we have the hour, right? So don’t go into Don’t go in there. Right detail, But just give us overviewing. What is this Courageous communication? So courageous communication is about not worrying about the people who don’t like you, but focusing on the like minded folks who share your heart in your mission and attracting them to you. So that is the simplest explanation. Don’t worry about the critics. Focus on the folks who have an affinity for what you d’oh. Okay, okay. You also encourage needing less praise. Please don’t be so needy. So the idea is level the purple in-kind together talking her hands are flailing hyre lips, and that’s amazing Hope. The Olan song. Yes, so right, so praise and criticism. So so again. One day I’m in my therapist’s office and and I was talking about how someone had criticized made a criticism and because I’m oh mirriam, you’re always in the spotlight or something and and then where other people would praise me for that same like skill are, you know and tendency. And she said, Well, Mary, and that’s just other people’s opinions of you and and it shouldn’t and they’re both the same thing. Praise and criticism are the same. They’re just other people’s opinions of you. And I’m like, Okay, well, that’s ridiculous, because Treyz feels really good and criticism feels really bad. And she said, A whole person really can manage praising criticism, right? So you don’t need praise to feel good, and criticism doesn’t derail you. Although one feels good and one hurts, you’re still going to be a whole person, like moving your way like through your life. And at that moment, I thought, Oh, my gosh, my clients are overly dependent on praise and terrified of criticism. And even if you meet people like that in person who are, like, very needy for praise their kind of exhaust sing right, and then it forms this sense of inauthenticity. So relationships reform with people and organizations are made of people, and we want to have an authentic relationship. And so when we’re when we need a lot of praise and are terrified of criticism, of course we send these messages that seem inauthentic, right and were afraid to like Show the true, the true truth of like who we are and what our organization is. And and so we think that that that’s super shiny, perfect image is what attracts people. But that doesn’t attract people. What attracts people is the real n’est, like they want to know who you really are and how they can help you with your struggles and the wins and the losses. And and all of that, just like we want to know from each other, you say You say have a point of view, right? And don’t be ashamed of that, right? Right. And people who have a similar point of view will be attracted to you. Yes, and those who do not will criticize or depart. And that’s not bad. Yes, because you want more of the people who share your point of view and fewer of the people who don’t exactly like the like the You don’t call yourself this, but like I’m doing it for you, you know non-profit therapist? Yes. Right. Yes. You’re you’re You’re encouraging this cognitive behavioral dahna scheme for non-profits right to use an organizational level. Okay, um, be strong. You say, You know, this is another thing. You saying the book be strong, be strong in your message and easy to find, right? So because the ideas create a brand of attraction to attract like minded people. And so if those people see that you’re standing up for the causes and the issues that they have an affinity for, that’s going to attract them to you. And then when you’re easy to find that helps you attract, attract those people. So if I have, you know, a desire to help a certain calls or issue and I’m looking for that, I can find someone who does that and then build build a relationship with that organization. Okay, we’re gonna take our first break, okay? And I want to say that when we come back, We’ll talk about how this is all very personal to you and not only the therapy, but you got some other things going on that that are interesting and and a little provocative. I will bear myself. Yeah, you in the book. So you read the book for detail, or you can hang out here and get get the Cliff notes version. Well, not really Cliff notes. I mean, we’re on for an hour. That’s not right. Get the get the audio version. That’s what I mean to say that this is the audio version of her book pursuing. They have a new free E book, which is the art of First Impressions. You need more donors. The Art of First Impressions. The book is about donor. It has the six guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy. It has how to identify your unique value and use it to attract people like Mary and I were talking about plus creative tips. You’ll get it at tony dot m a slash pursuant capital p for Please remember that. All right, let’s go back to creative communications. So you’re relaxed. You’re a burlesque dancer. You were You’re unashamed unashamed about the shoes, the platform shoes. That you? Yes. So you are. You know, you make those other things, You’re out there and you’re attracting people. How are similarly minded? Yes. And you’re not upset when people are, I guess put off. I don’t know if people are put off. Everybody in the world I don’t know. I guess I just don’t get carried away. All right, But you’re you’re out there for your own, for you’re in your own brand. You’re practicing. What, you Yes, yes. And my company to it is built on the same principles of a brand of attraction, right? And really connecting with with like minded organisations. And so it’s It’s less about worrying about trying to convince people you know it. It’s hard to change what’s in people’s hearts, right? We all we all have our philanthropic heart. We all have what’s in our hearts. So what’s in my heart and who I am? And so it’s hard to convince people of the worth of your organization. It’s hard to convince people that I look for like minded people, right? And your work. You probably do, too, and I publish a podcast. Right producer podcast and people who enjoy it will come to it. Yes. And so it’s this idea of of working less to convince people of your worth and that just attracting the like minded people. Teo, tell me about the burlesque. Well, that’s so I mean, I mean, what I call a midlife adventure, so I know why. Wouldn’t know. There’s nothing to be going crazy. Whoever heard of a good life eventually? Well, that’s what I call it on. DA. You know, I’m fifty three. It just turned fifty three, so And I just decided that you know her, so out about their age, you know? I love that. Well, why Why would I? Because I don’t know why, but lots of women are coy about Yeah. So fifty three three very. And that’s when you’re supposed to say, Oh, my God, you look great in here. You look amazing. That’s what you’re supposed to say, right? OK, thanks. So I just decided that I was feeling really confident. Like, I think women in their fifties. It’s a really great time. And you you feel like, really confident. Like I don’t care what anybody thinks. I’m doing what I want. It’s Sometimes I call it like your second act like after the kids are a little older and whatever you can go do. And I just decided, you know, this idea of feeling really confident about your body and and your sexuality and who you are. And in burlesque, the beautiful thing about it is the key. Everybody is welcome and everybody is beautiful, right? So big bodies, little bodies. We celebrate our curves and giggles. There’s trans bodies, you know, there’s one of the guys in my class is Ah ah did burlesque in drag. So, like any, you know any who any person you are is worthy of celebration. And so in a lot of times women, we get the message to, like, you know, like, whatever you are is not good enough, right? You have to like, Thanks. Put yourself in here and wrap yourself up. You know what I mean? There’s something about you that is unappealing. So in burlesque, it’s sort of like this idea of owning yourself. But also I did it for sort of command of myself and the stage. So as a speaker and trainer, you know, having command of your of your brain and your body, like in front of people, right? So learning I chose improv in stand up comedy, it But it’s a lot of the same skills, right? And understanding, like being in the moment, like being really in the moment and really selling something right. And so and it’s this idea of even though I was, like, terrified in my head, you know, I went out and what you just let go and just have fun and that that feeling of that intersection of fear and exhilaration that that’s that’s something that is that it is such a great feeling and and you know that, right? This stand up on the stage doing stand up there. The applause is over. It’s your audience. Are you going to make them laugh, right? Or are you Are you going to be embarrassed? Exactly. You got eight minutes go and and you just dive in. And And it is really about just being so present in that moment. And so that was the fun for me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for sure. Fifty three millions fifty three. How bad you’re about? Uh, okay, so, uh, s so let’s talk about some communications? Uh, more brand promises you want. You want tohave? You want us to have a Is it just one? We have a brand in order to have a brand promise or one brand problem. Grimm Press What’s a brand program promises the highest level of thinking that the highest level of experience. So ah, brand promises something A promise that you make to everyone your organization interacts with on And it’s not always stated, but it’s felt so. I used the example of, like, a target because everyone’s been to target. Right? And you know what? It feels like it and they you know, they’re brown brand promise, even though they don’t say it is like, you’re going to have a good experience here. You know, like for some women like targets or recreational activity, Right? We, like, walk around with our carts, bring kids. Yeah, Yeah, you push the kids around. When my my oldest child, when we adopted my oldest child, like and I was a nervous mom to a three year old, you know, I would just go through target because I like target, you know? So ah, and s o. So it’s this idea of that promise that we make Teo to everyone we interact with. And then once we figure what out what that is, then we can then that can distill into all our messaging and our talking points and how our organization looks and feels well or it’s a grand process could see. I was going to say, How is that different than a vision? But but vision is what you’re trying to achieve. Yes. Yes. This is your brain is about This is about what you’re going to get when you interact with us. So so I’ll give you an example. So there is a national organization called Oasis that works with older adults. And they do recreation activities, volunteer educational. So as people are, you know, nearing retirement, you know, finding the free time in their life. Okay, Now I’m going to really pursue my own interests or do what I want. You know, you would turn to Oasis for for further education, for volunteer opportunities of exercise. Right? And so when we looked at them and we said what? What are we really promising people? And it was this idea of ah young at heart. Right? So being young and violent and feeling like life is full of promises, like no matter what age you are. And so when we created that young at heart brand promise U S. O, then it’s like, Okay, now we’re going to look at okay. They remain message, which then became Oasis. Lifelong adventure. There’s no one. So here’s the thing no one wants to help label. Nobody likes labels like Millennials Don’t want to be called Millennials, right? Seniors don’t want to be called scene like people don’t like labels, right? And so we couldn’t say for seniors or, you know, so it was this idea of implying lifelong, which is throughout life and adventure. But the brand promise was really this idea of staying vital. And so when you looked at the color, the photography, you know how how the organization looked and felt how people interacted with that organization in person and in print online did that? Did that make that? Did that? Keep that promise right? So once you have that, that’s sort of this feeling that just works its way through everything you dio. And sometimes it’s like so known. It’s just it’s a thing that people don’t really talk about it Just obvious and evident. And some. But it’s always good to define what it is. Because then you could really look and say, Are we communicating? That, you know, is are we keeping that promise with every with every interaction that we that we have? That was life, life, long adventure? Yeah. This is Oasis that well, they’re brand promise. Was was this ideas being young at heart? Which lettuce to the tagline like lifelong adventure. Like your midlife adventure? Exactly. Like you recommend adventures to clients to have no life, e Yes. So Okay, I hadn’t drawn that parallel till you just said that. Yes. Oh, well, this is why some property for thirteen thousand? Yes, it’s unlike you could be a part of my mental health team. Time organic xero fee. I can’t afford me. I know I can’t afford my therapy five days a week now, but so hyre. Okay, I don’t know where I’m going with that, but so are so You have the brand promise, and then you have belief statements. Okay. Yes. They seem to Segway from Okay. So yeah, so from the brand promise. So this came about because a lot of heat would say to me. So I I want to appeal to this group. So butt And yet I what appealing to this group may mean like hurting the feelings of this group. And and we’re not sure what to say, you know, and how to keep all these, you know, different groups, you know, from not offending anyone. And so I was at a workshop, and this woman said to me, You know, I work with women’s health and some of the women in the group are that that that this organization serves are pro life, and some of them are pro choice, and there’s always, ah, you know, and and I’m all work. It’s this constant battle. Okay, so so in their head, there’s a battle, right? So it’s like, so these beliefs statements then allow us to say, Here’s what our organization believes. Here’s what we stand for and these are five to seven principles that we just don’t move off of, right. And so one of those beliefs statements could be we we work to include all you know, points of view around, you know, this issue, I said, you just state that you’re trying to do that, right? So that’s a belief that you have a belief that she had was We’re doing our best to accommodate the most diverse, you know, points of view possible around this issue. But isn’t that contrary? Teo. Courageous communication. What we said earlier about not being fearful of offending some people. So so you’re not. It’s not that you’re offending. You’re trying to make space for both these groups that were a part of this this organization. So it’s it’s this idea of, like, Yeah, and we might We might we might We might fall down on that everyone so out. But we’re doing our best to accommodate everyone. So this is not an organization that has to take a stand on on abortion, right? Whether with the organization, right? Right, right. This is organization that was working in maternal health. White like maternal health. So it’s like, So there’s route that and saying, There’s room for and we’re doing our best. So one of the organizations I worked with in St Louis is called Episcopal City Mission, and they serve kids in juvenile court custody. And so the idea of why your kids in court custody. What have they done? What? How? And then they’ve minister to them, it’s called a minute. They call it a ministry of presents. So they minister to the kids, their mentors and ministers to them. And so this idea of creating these beliefs, statements for them allowed them to say, Here’s what we believe about the children that we serve and about And it also allowed them to talk about their religious, the religious foundation around that. Because then these air this is what we believe we believe that no child is should be defined by the worst thing they’ve ever done, you know. And so when you hear things like that, like, okay, and no one argues, no one can argue with what you believe. This is just what we believe. And if it’s not for you, that’s OK. So And it’s It’s a very freeing way because this is what we believe in. And if something it like if something comes to in conflict with that, then you know well, that that’s that’s that’s This is something we just don’t move off. Yeah. How do you develop belief? That? What are you telling you? Talk with your hands. I I’m pulawski demolition. We say we can’t You can’t talk with your hands strapped down. Yeah, yeah, that’s what I like to have zoo meetings when I explain concepts. A lot of times I used my hands, you know, to describe things, so okay. All right. So my developing within your organization, how do you develop? So most of them are known, but not said so get them in writing, right? Exactly. Yeo. Yeah. Yeah. So more. Yes. So So it just really depends on the organization s o. We asked people. So when we asked people, like, what do you believe? You know what? What? What? What? What? People on the organisms staff and bored. And then from there, we distilled it down. So we got a lot of input and then distilled it down into, like, five or seven things. So But when I’m working with an organization, I’m hearing them as I go. So I’m sort of like already taking a mental inventory, you know, and and and and and listening to what they are because a lot of times they’re just they’re just known and they’re not written. And this one of my clients that it’s called there. They call it the values, their value statement. It’s police stated value statement. I mean, you can call it different words is still the same thing. Here’s the unassailable things that we believe in. Right. And then there were working on putting them, like in the in a very prominent, Like when you walk in, like, here’s what we believe, which I think is wonderful, right? Because it just grounds everybody into that. Okay, Okay, way. Don’t stray from these, so if we’re going to embark on courageous communication. Courageous. Well, courageously. Yes. We’re going to change some culture. Some thinking within the organization, right? Because most organizations are middle of the road. You know, there’s safer. We’re not goingto for the reasons that we talked about, you know, they don’t want to. Ah, I don’t want to be provocative in their communication. Yes, maybe not. Take a stand or take a week or stand. So how are we going to get changed? You have some ideas in the book about changing culture. Tto make this shift correct. So non-profit culture is fundamentally risk averse. I think the board structure is the board structure. Like they’re in their mission to be like, Let’s not ruin this, right. No problem. I’ve been on the boards before. It’s like, Please don’t let let this organization die under my watch. Right? Right, right. All right. Like that was shot that Do you know those hos do no harm? Right? So So the idea is to switch from this idea of fear and scarcity. So I’m constantly scanning and thinking about what could go wrong to thinking about what could go. Right. So an idea of living in confidence in abundance and so how that happens is really from I work with organizations on on all levels, so I can’t just create cultural change through one person. So what I was doing before was like I could teach you how to write better Web content, or I can teach you howto have a more engaging brand. But if you don’t have the culture that supports that, that’s not that’s not gonna work. So typically it’s working with, you know, board and executive director at that level to embrace this idea of that, you’re going to go a lot farther. Ah, latto faster and achieved more success when we adopt the principles of of abundance, right and so and it’s and that’s calling Teo to the front. So here’s like, Here’s when we did take a risk and it paid off, right? So so because I think organizations, they’re doing this already there, just not giving themselves credit for it. So a lot of times it’s just like helping them understand. You’re kind of already doing this. We’re just going to do this in a way that’s really deliver it and the idea of and showing them the numbers of of, you know, how it. It takes a lot of time and a lot of money, Teo, to convince people of something rather than create, like fighting those likeminded people and attracted them to you. And it’s about relieving yourself of not at casting that really wide net of having to appeal to everyone. You know, Because what if What if we miss this dollar? What if we miss this? Don’t you know what? But I know I understand that. Yeah, but I want to get to that house too. Okay, So one of the things our first remind listeners we had a show called buy-in bitches. There were two women. Yeah, we’re who talked about who talked about getting buy-in that there was around it and technology project, But But you could listen back to that show because they had a lot of good ideas that are that go beyond just tech projects. Cool. Forgetting buy-in from from your boss from your CEO. Buy-in bitches. Okay, I’m sure if you go to twenty martignetti dot com and you start the word bitches, that’s that show, that’s so we’ll make itself apparent like those ladies. Alright, i e I love them too. We did that on the show just is organic. We You know, we don’t come up with the name we need to come up with a name of one of them Said we could be buy-in. I said we needed a liberation, was close and she I think and then I said, which is really did that just thinks. Oh, really? Oh, well, I forget whether she said it hesitantly. Or I said it boldly. I don’t know. But yes, love, Anna, But you also you mentioned you touched on something You say the book share the successes, share small successes when when you’re when you’re new form your new brand of communication does well get get Retweeted or yeah. Get special attention on Instagram or something. Great. Share it, share it and and share it with especially the board. Like, show them how this is work and give them the data to support this because they had their typically data driven Okay. Okay. So I want getting this getting this buy-in You’re also encouraging us to understand what the board’s motivations are correct. We’ll say little about. So you’re you know, you’re like I said the boards. Motivation is typically tio not mess up, but they also really they I mean, the board members really care deeply about what’s happening. And so when you can understand, like what they want to contribute what they’re what’s, then they’re what’s in their specific like, ah, mind how and and then pull that out of them. Then once they can increase their buy-in increase there, um, they’re emotional impact into the organization. Then we can. Then we can really work with them on taking those risks and coming with us. You know, for me, I’m, you know, I’m come from a communications background. I was on a board, and it was a lot of lawyers and accountants, and I was wondering, like, you know, how do I fit in here? You know, what is my gifts? And the organization is foster, adoptive cure coalition, that they’re my client now. I said, musicians what Foster and Adoptive Care Coalition. And I stepped down so that they could be my client. One of the things that we did is like these monthly our yearly meetings where we met one on one, the staff and board to talk about what our goals were, and then how they could contribute to those, And I think that’s really helpful. Another thing you suggest is be patient. Take small steps. Yeah. You know, you had over, like, a minute or so. Yeah. No, I mean, I think you just said it just you’re transforming a culture takes time, and it takes till it takes deliberate action every day. And so that’s why those successes, they’re so important, so people can start to see the transformation. And that’s a Olds. It’s been a month. And then, you know, let’s let’s move off this. This takes some time to really become part of your culture and just how people act and and think every day. Okay, we’re gonna take that break. Wittner, CPS. They’re kicking off a remote non-profit roundtable. Siri’s Each quarter, a Wagner’s sepia sepia will cover a topic that they know intimately detailed. And you need a basic understanding. That’s all you’re going to get in an hour. This is not a sepia, you know. Cielito SEPA credit course. You need a basic understanding of it. Their latest is revenue recognition for grants and contracts. You watch the archive video at wagner cpas dot com. Quick resource is than Webinars. Now, time for Tony’s. Take two. Are you insider yet? I’m pushing this because what do you get as an insider? Exclusive content. So today, with Maryann, we’re goingto produce her shoes, her platform boots that she’s about. You’ll see the purple thes. So there was shooting extra content videos short, like five minutes videos with each guest. And insiders get that on a private playlist. Now, some podcasters might charge you for that. You got five bucks a month or something? Whatever. Maybe seven. Eight bucks a month? Something? No, not non-profit radio? No, no charge. I just want you to be an insider. So you go to tony martignetti dot com and you click the insider alerts button that’s it. Prominent and you’ll be an inside its name and email, That’s it. It’s all I ask. You’ll be an insider, and then you’ll get the access to these exclusive videos that I’m doing with guests and, uh, including your going to see Mary Ann’s boots. All right, uh, let’s go back to Mary Anders and courageous communication, All right? Okay. All right. Yes, of course. My favorite thing. Tents. Are you okay? Stand up straight. Okay, okay. All right, so that the cops way talked about the culture, change, all change. Listening. Listening? Uh, you like, uh, discovery sessions and focus groups. So what’s the part first before we get to discovery sessions of folks, why do we have is listening How does a listening exercise fit into courageous communication? Okay, so when we, when we listen, Teo, so courageous communication is not too saying or doing whatever you want, right for the purpose of doing it. So when we listen, This is when we find consensus points in thinking that help is building develop our messaging and our brand so that everyone who’s part of it feels excited to share it. And s O You know, when I just want to make that clear, is when we talk about being a courageous communicator, that that that means that you’re speaking your organization’s authentic truth, right? And how we get to that is by listening. So, you know, what do we value as an organization? And then how can we present that in a way that feels authentic? Tow us and that but then is also exciting and engaging for those like minded people that we want to attract. And that’s where the discovery sessions and the focus groups come in. SoHo are we listening to? So for so So I I’ve used this cool tool call Discovery sessions for many, many years and S O. N. And it’s different. So typically a focus group, you would say, Here’s a couple of ideas we’re thinking about Can you give us some feedback around these specific ideas, right? A discovery session is more of an open ended conversation where you’re asking people how they think and feel about an organization. What attracted? Who are you asking? Well, I’m going to get to that. What’s so so about Non-profit? I would never platform boots and altum. Yes, so So So what we would do is create way create a cross section of people so bored staff, volunteers, clients creating a cross section in the room. Now, sometimes I would do it where, um, an organization would want different discovery sessions based on audience. And then it was up tio us to kind of synthesized the information, but most the times like that was a longer process and, um, or involved in an expensive process. And they wanted so we would take maybe twelve to fifteen people, put him in a room, board staff Like I said, you, Khun Dio, volunteers, clients, those people that are really close to your organization, they don’t even have to know a lot about it. Just have an affinity for it. And so sometimes people come in the room and they would say, Well, I just joined the board. I don’t know very much. It’s not about what you know. It’s like, What’s what? You’ve what you feel, What you feel right? Right? Yeah, right. You come. Why’d you join? So we and in the book I really lay this out step by step on how to do this, But we’re going to ask questions like, so, you know, tell me how to get the book. Just get the book right. What? Three words come to mind. You know, when you think about us. Like, what do you think that we do? That’s different or better? Because that’s what we’re looking for. Like our positioning. Right? And you know what attracted you? What? What would you tell people, Teo? You know who you think might be attracted to you? Would you tell people about right? So so that’s for two reasons. Because we’re planting something in their mind. That, you know, Hey, you should tell people about this. And if you did, what what would What would you say and what we’re looking for us. I said our consensus points and thinking. So when we do these, I have people write first and then speak and they write first. So that, like, if you and I were at opposite ends of the room and I heard, you know, everyone had the same thing to say by the time we got down Teo, you strain your Yeah, right, everybody. So I’m just going to not say that, because then I don’t think so. So we look at consensus points and running first, and then you got to read what you wrote. Exactly. And it’s a very strength space conversation. So a strength space, right? So you’re looking for what? What assets you have that you can present, And then how can you use those assets to connect with like minded people? So I just did this recently for a group that was starting their first sort of, like, big plan giving effort. And so we had a Yeah, right. Your your your wheelhouse. Yeah, And so it was the idea of, you know, These were people who had been long time donors and volunteers. So they were really the top prospects for this. But in But before we wantedto ask them formally, we’re asking them. Hey, how did you become involved? Like, what is your affinity? You know, what do you want your legacy to be, you know. And so most philanthropy is born of pain, right? Like so, There is a pain that I had in my life that I want to prevent other other people from happening. Right. So, right. So the pain of you know, you know, my parents, you know, we’re unemployed for a long stretch of time and write something like that. Right? And so when you asking people what you want their legacy to be, you know what? What? What? What? What changed? You want to see in the world, you know? Then you could really understand, like what their goals are. And so when we you know, when we did this, we got when we did these discovery sessions. We got so much information and not just around the plan giving, but just around who they were as people and and what and what their goals were in life. And how How can I How could an organization support that person? In many ways? Right, So so. And it’s It’s always we always get great stuff out of them, and people leave. People leave feeling really good. Like, Wow, that was a great use of my time. There was a very good donorsearch gauge mint. Yeah, Even bored engagement. Exercise? Yes, yes. So then what do you do with the with the synthesis of all this, Right? So just go. Yes, sure. So before you start, we usually have what we want out of it on the back end anyway. So if we’re looking for a messaging co-branding something like that, So we’re going to know what the front and what we want out of the back end. Sometimes people say like, this has happened so many times, people would say stuff in the room, and that would become their tagline, you know, and oh, gosh, yeah, but I can’t say that in the room. Right? Great sport. You catch it. Yeah, because I’m listening. I’m listening. And I’m scanning for you have the trained ear. Yes. And know what the purpose of the meeting is Yeah, and and and And there there were just creating a space for them. Tio Tio really express their thoughts around the organization and around their goals for their own with their own knife. Very informative, I think. Two CEOs, Teo full boards. Yeah. No, this synthesis, even beyond the product. Whatever it is, you’re looking for messages, right? Or or your promises or whatever, very informative, I think for it is. And it’s also, when you listen first and then and then develop later than we say to them. Hey, you know, because of what you said because of the guidance you gave here’s what we created, or here’s the direction we went. They see the impact. So if we don’t make decisions in the room and we make very clear up front like this is not decisionmaking, we’re not making a focusedbuyer. Yeah, you make want a pole or make a decision or, you know, get at least some priorities out of that. But this is about just this idea of Hey, let’s let’s talk. Let’s create this very specific space to talk about your thoughts around our organization, and then we can use that then to to help our decision making, You know, as a staff, a said struck me as outstanding engagement. Yes, for whatever. Whatever constituent. Cuz you’re bringing in volunteers. Clients? Yes. All the board donors plan giving donors get shot up. E-giving dahna. Yeah. Yes, that’s right there often for gotten. You know that they are. I’m the I’m the Evangelist without the religious overtones for planned e-giving at my client’s. Because it’s often the forgotten group. You know, there’s no recognition society for playing, giving you have a thousand dollars. Five thousand, fifty thousand dollar recognition, nothing for planned e-giving people who put you alongside their grandchildren. Right? And children in there will their life legacy. Teo, you can’t throw them. Ah, Recognition group. Come on. What do you mean? I’m not here yet, but, uh, I make the point. Dahna let’s take a break, and then we’re on our way. Okay, Well, when we come back, then we’ll talk about the authentic personality cause I feel like the info that you would gain from the discovery session of the focus groups leads to your unique personality and authentic personality partner. And and that’s important to know to learn. Tell us, can you use more money? You need a new revenue source. You want diversify revenue. Get a long stream of passive revenue. When cos you refer process their credit card transactions through, tell us infact you get fifty percent of the fee that Tello’s earns. It goes on for months and years with the credit card transactions. You watch the video, then send potential companies to watch it. Where do you get it? It’s on the listener landing page at tony dot m a slash Tony Tello’s For the video, we got to do a live listener Love the live love It’s going out. It’s going out to Ottawa, Canada. Say, I don’t like the way New York of the Ottawa No Ottawa, Ottawa, Canada Welcome. Xiang Xiang, Hyogo Costume, Shanghai China NI HAU Shanghai, not Shanghai I don’t like that Shanghai Shanghai NI Hao, Brooklyn, New York I don’t like that. It’s Brooklyn, New York. That’s the way they would say. Shanghai in Brooklyn, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York Multiple live, love, All of you, all of you. I’m just going down the list. We’re not. Sometimes I go domestic and then abroad. We’re doing it all on her. And the way Sam wrote it down real court to Argentina. Would that be, uh, put a star days when a star dies? Argentina Riel, Quarto Live Love to you Garza Garcia, Mexico Buena Star Days, Moscow, Russia. Good dog. No, that’s German. Um, Moscow, Russia. Live live out to you Middle village, New York. That’s Long Island. Middle Village. Cool. Charlotte, North Carolina. Live love, special love going on North Carolina, of course. Tampa, Florida Adelanto, adelanto, California Live love to each of you are live listeners And there’s more out there But summer summer mask guarded. I don’t know why, but there’s more live love going out to those masked, guarded people if I didn’t shut you out and the podcast pleasantries the over thirteen thousand listening in the time shift pleasantries to you. Whatever you’re doing, you’re painting your house. You’re washing your car. You’re doing the dishes. Is that your podcast binge day on a Sunday evening or something? No Sunday evenings of fir e mails. I have to be Sunday afternoon. Podcast binging wherever. Whenever you’re listening pleasantries to the that huge podcast audience, I’m grateful that you’re with us. Thank you. Let’s go back to Mary Anders. How does that sound? Great. Okay, cool. So what do I say we’re going to do? Oh, your authentic self authentic personality. One may all right, flushes out what we got here. Oh, you have a quote. I want Tonto. Okay. Okay. Frame this little bit. Page eighty for when you get the book, you’ll see it’s paid for the more honest and authentic you are in your communications, the more you’ll attract like minded people. So we’ve been talking around that, right? That’s like, to me. I was sort of like a thesis. Yeah, a theme running through the whole book, But Okay, but so now we’ll talk about your authentic personality. Okay, What’s this about? So as an organization. So we’ve talked about your personality on the center of the universe. If you can’t say that, you only have one cent. That’s so let’s move it. Dang it, dang it. Shifting away. Right. Light is moving now to your clients and nonprofit organizations who are listening. Yes. So So it’s this idea of, of of your organization just really being who they are. So if your grassroots e that’s okay if you’re older and more established, that’s OK. When you try to present yourself as something, you’re not just like people. People are going to get that through. Yeah. So I was meeting with Ah, a woman that I’ve known for a long time, and she now manages donorsearch vise funds. And she said, Marianne, it’s my job to get below the gloss. The brochure gloss into what’s really going on an organization. And I said, Melinda, it’s my job, not tohave the gloss that you can really see right into an organization that they’re excited, too, to present that to you and that they feel confident, you know and who they are. And and so one of the ways that you do that is, you know, celebrating successes, but then also being really honest about your struggles. We want to and and and if it’s a failure, right? And I In the book, I cite the Engineers Without Borders in Canada. They always do this failure there. Their annual report is their failure report the top ten ways we failed, and I’m like, Okay, boy, that’s a confident but they’re talking about Here is the lessons we learned. And in non-profit, I think we’re not allowed to fail like we think you know and get that become part of part of that risk averse culture if you’re going to take a risk if you can’t be bold and courageous you’re going to fail some. Great. And here’s what we learned from that. And here’s how that helped us grow. And so that’s idea of the good, the bad and and that that’s what people want to know when they want to connect to, you know, in in St Louis, I’m, you know, I’m ah, fostered dogs, right? So that’s one might. That’s one of the things that we do before dogs and you adopt children, adopt just Yes, I am a rescuer by nature, so And so I and there’s, like with you. Yeah. Yes. So there’s several organizations that sort of do a lot of the same this kind of the same thing, right? So they’re all working an animal welfare, right? I’ll show you who’s sorry, where were there are working in an animal welfare, but each of them has a distinct personality, right? And so so what? The organization that I that I worked for it there a little bit gritty and rebellious. The other one is a lot more folksy, community based other one is like older, established. They work on higher level like advocacy and overarching like statewide doing there in the streets. You’re doing the work. You’re rescuing the dog, right? And so so. But each has their own personality. Jefferson City? Yes. Jefferson City, Missouri. Yes. Capital of Missouri. Well, hardly hardly known. Right. City lived in Warrensburg for five years. I was in here for firstborns. Were really Okay. All right, so so. But each one has their own distinct personality, and that’s OK. And so when When you are looking so if I have an affinity towards animals, I can I can look and I can understand, like the landscape and one which one I’m attracted to, right? And and And And so it’s just sort of like owning that like, you know, Hey, you know, this is this is who we are, and this is what we’re about. And and And if you like that, that’s great. And if you don’t, that’s okay too. You know, we’re happy to know us and a hard place to be lorts well to a future with Sorry. I wanna keep it on the chairs now. We’re on a shoestring budget here. Okay, So leading to this is you’ve alluded to this a bunch of times. You wantto take stock inventory? What it is that’s that’s holding you back. What your fears are? Yes. Okay. We haven’t talked about this yet. Yeah, let’s let’s flush this out. Because because if you’re going to be courageous in your communications, there are going to be worries. Fears. We’re going live donors, We’re gonna lose volunteers. The mayor isn’t gonna like us anymore. Etcetera, etcetera, You know, you gotta take stock, right, And then go ahead. You flush it out. Yeah, eso. And so it’s important to inventory your fierce because the concern isn’t going to go away. So when the benefit outweighs the concern, then you’ll move forward. So what I mean by that is when you’re going to have concerns and fears through this whole process. But But we’re working towards something greater. So we just need to learn what our concerns are and then make a plan to address them. Because boardmember Zehr going to say, Oh, my God. What if this happened? Okay, Okay, so what if that does happen? So let’s make a plan to address that. So people like plans because it helps them, you know, feel feel safe and like, Okay, so if we’re going to do this thing, and so what if somebody doesn’t criticize us? What do we dio? And then once we have, like, so a lot of times, you know, Remember when Non-profits were hesitant to get on social media? Because they we’re afraid of of negative comments, right? What if somebody says something? Okay. What if somebody does say something? How do we manage that? And and so because crisis PR to me is just something that happens not every days. Ah, huge crisis. But it’s just you’re going toe. It’s the price of doing business. If you’re doing and saying something interesting, somebody’s not going to like it, and that’s okay. But the people who do like it are the ones we’re concerned about. And so it’s this idea of Okay, What if somebody doesn’t like it? Then how can we address that? And there are, you know, times when I worked with groups where we really just said, Okay, what are all our concerns? And we put them on the whiteboard and we addressed each one with some with some strategies. To address each thing. What if this happened? Okay, this is what we would d’oh. Okay. Right. Okay. On benefits as well. You wantto take stock of the benefits, right? And so that so the idea is to attach Teo and and the thing is, like, you could have one hundred fears. But if you have one benefit right, you’re goingto work past those those fears. And so the idea is okay, as a group understanding, what do we really want for organization? How? No. What is it that it’s really want going to move us forward? And then once we agree to that right, and then so now we know how to get to that. Okay, now, this is this concerns, and we’re just going to manage these as we go with a plan for each one of your plan for each one. Because what happens right now is we’re making decisions based in fear, right? And so let’s make decisions based on rational thought. Right here is what’s best for organization here’s here’s the most efficient way to get what we need or whatever. Whatever it is instead of Oh, no, we can’t do that. That’s that’s that’s too. That’s too something right. So when And so the ideas. Yeah, I get that. That’s scary. But let’s make decisions based based in the rational thought, and then and then just just be mindful that there’s going to be concerns popping up you say in the book fears don’t predict the future. Yeah, right. I’m not a mind reader. I wish I could be. I tell my kids that, too, just because you think it’s all going to go wrong, it’s not. That doesn’t mean it isthe right. So and the ideas like this idea of being an abundance of scanning the scene for but what good could happen instead of constantly scanning the scene for what could go wrong? And that’s why I’m working toward the good right. And that’s a mindset that that, you know, I work for every day, as you know as a person and that that, you know, I work with organizations to Yeah, right. So we’re going to look at the world is a place of abundance and opportunity Instead of fear and scarcity. You got a car last break text to give. Can you use more money? I need a new revenue source. Diversify revenue. Here’s the second way. Mobile giving. You could learn about it with text to gives five part email. Many course you’re You’ll get five emails over five days. Just like my therapy. I could do, mate. I did my therapy in this way be a lot cheaper. So I’m sure five e mails way, Yes. So what do you do to get the five female Many course from text to give you text. NPR for non-profit radio and November Papa Romeo. Air Force days, Whiteman Air Force Base, Warrensburg, Missouri. Jefferson said he’s the capital. Text NPR to four, four, four nine nine nine. All right, we’ve got several more minutes left for courageous communications. Um, so staff expertise you have. You have a chapter on developing right on creating developing staff expertise. Yes. Yes. So just take a picture of me. Yes, you did. You know how to shoot a video, So I know it’s exciting beyond Zoom. You love Zoom I d’Oh d’Oh d’oh. Okay. Okay. So, staff. Okay, so I learned a phrase a couple weeks ago, and it’s It’s not my genius. It’s not my job. And I think that plays really well here. That’s about a about why’s that bad? Because then you have to be. You have to be excellent at everything. But you’re not a possum. That’s right. You’re a genius and everything, right? So, Souto, from your therapist E I learned that for I know. I was on Ah, CEO workshop. Okay. To be average it something. Yeah. Was your therapist? Yes. Yes. It’s okay to be just OK, which is still, like, completely unacceptable to me. But I’m working on it. I know more about your therapy than you do. So know. So. So staff. So so. So a lot of times organizations will, um, get bogged down in what I call a like. They think they’re fund-raising or they think their relationship building because they’re, you know, putting together a newsletter or, you know, an annual report. When I work with folks on that, that there’s only one you there’s only one Tony and Mary. And like some of my kinds, Larry, there’s only right there’s only one Larry or Galen are are the folks that I work with and and so you only you could build those relationships. There’s a lot of people who could do other things in your office, like, you know, the newsletters, this the social media that could update the contents of your website or something like that. And but there’s on ly one you. So when you are bogged down in this, either either two things one is you’re kind of bogged down in it because you’re expected to dio all the relationship building of fund-raising. And then you’re expected to dio all of the you know, the design and development of marketing materials and social media, or you’re doing those things because you’re a little hesitant to do the relationship thing, right? So sometimes people get into fund-raising positions, and they really that relationship building isn’t their forte. And, you know, they fall into these position and they confined administrative things, Teo time. And then they wonder why they didn’t make their money creating goals on DH there moves goals by the end of the year because they’ve because they’re not comfortable doing it s o They found distraction. Yeah, eso and non-profits tend to value money and not time. So they said we were gonna watch every dollar, but we have plenty of time, right, so we can weaken we can have all the time. So we’re gonna work people really long hours. And then because we’re going to keep all that in house, well, we could do that here. We could do that in house and what that does, is it, You know, Yeah, You’re saving money by not sending that out. But the money that you’re losing because of the because those folks, those that they’re geniuses relationship building, let them build relationships, because then they’re going to be generating the income, you know, and then offloading some of those, those duties, that anyone you look at this and say it, and I’m not saying like all too because, like, you know, at my old company five one Creative, I worked with a very awesome team of designers and developers, so nothing anyone could do anything. I’m just saying, what is what is your genius right? What is your gift and are? And is that your primary focus of your job is practicing those gifts because in the end, that is going to move your organization farther. You also make a point of saying, if you don’t have expertise in house, you’re gonna have to spend the money, tio by it. Freelance consulting. Any of the sites that match a big potential volunteers. Yes, but you’ve got to get the expertise you don’t have that you need. Yeah, and, you know, you could learn how to build a website, but then you’re never going to replicate that point. Don’t spend your time don’t spend. And so so yeah, So bring those people in, have them help you in boost you. And I realized when I started my company, I looked around. I said, what makes a successful business? And those people were spending a lot of time and a lot of money and a lot of investment into the professional development of their company and themselves. And I look and I see the same thing. And non-profits they’re bringing people in right there, ringing the highest level, thinking that they confined into really push them forward in a way that they couldn’t have gotten gotten themselves. And then they’re seeing a lot of benefit from that investment. Yes, You have to. You you can’t. Another guest on a couple weeks ago, it was December. You can’t be expert and everything. And there’s no point in learning things right. You don’t need to do what your genius at. Yeah, you’re wasting your time. You’re taking time away from your genius, right? You think you’re saving, but in the end, it’s costing you a lot more. We got about thirty seconds. Encourage us wrap it up and encourage. Yes. So you know, right now, it’s kind of a crazy time. You know, politically. Onda lot of non-profits are really kind of flipping into fear, right? And so, my I’m gonna encourage them to start scanning the world for the possibilities and the abundance around them and creating this brand of attraction so that they can keep that positive energy coming towards them. So that because all these types of our world is uncertain everyday. So when we’re certain of the direction we’re going, we can cope with that a lot. A lot, a lot more easily. Outstanding. You’ll find her at Marianne dash dot com. There’s an e at the end of Marianne, and she’s at Mary and, er sh thank you very much. Thank you for having me. This pleasure. Wonderful. And for insiders, Marianne has time effectiveness tips that we’re gonna talk about. Plus, you’re going to see the shoes next week, walks and runs with Emily Parks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I’d be seat you Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuing by what you see piela is guiding you. Beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By Tello’s Credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A great of producer was Clam Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. 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