Tag Archives: Gene Takagi

Nonprofit Radio 450th Show Recap

Last week was Nonprofit Radio’s 450th show. Here’s my highlight video including co-host Claire Meyerhoff from the PG Agency and live music from Scott Stein, singing our theme music, “Cheap Red Wine.” Also calls from Gene Takagi, our longest-running contributor, from NEO Law Group; Yigit Uctum from returning sponsor Wegner CPAs; and Peter Panepento at new sponsor Turn Two Communications. And a welcome to new sponsor Cougar Mountain Software.

Best part is the heartfelt cameo from Tony Martignetti, Sr., with commentary on his son. 

Nonprofit Radio for July 26, 2019: 450th Show!

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Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Maria Semple, Gene Takagi & Amy Sample Ward: 450th Show!
We’re celebrating Nonprofit Radio’s 9th anniversary and 450th show! We’ve got Claire Meyerhoff co-hosting, live music from Scott Stein, giveaways from Cura Coffee, our contributors Maria Semple, Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward, July 26 history lessons and lots more fun. To win prizes, tweet about our 450th using #NonprofitRadio. We’ll pick the clever ones and shout you and your nonprofit as winners, making you a part of history. Celebrate with us!

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Nonprofit Radio’s 450th Show

On July 26th it’s our 9th anniversary and 450th show! We’ve got giveaways. To win, tweet about our 450th using #NonprofitRadio. Watch to learn how to win. I’ll also welcome new sponsors Cougar Mountain Software and Turn Two Communications. 

We’ll stream on Facebook Live. Friday, July 26th, 1-2pm eastern. I hope you’ll join us! 

Nonprofit Radio for February 22, 2019: Flash Fundraising & DEI and Governance II

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My Guests:

Matt Scott: Flash Fundraising
Prepare. Launch. Engage. These are the essential elements for rapidly and successfully fundraising when breaking news intersects with your cause. Matt Scott from CauseMic talks us through.




Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi:DEI & Governance II
Gene Takagi and I wrap up last week’s thoughtful convo on diversity, equity and inclusion, with mechanics for your board: by-laws; recruiting; committees; decision making; oversight metrics; and more. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.




Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit Radio Big Non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure your Asef Feliz. Um, if you blew my mind with the idea that you missed today’s show flash fund-raising Prepare, launch, Engage these air the essential elements for rapidly and successfully fund-raising when breaking news intersects with your cause. Matt Scott from Cause Mike talks us through and d I and governance to Jean Takagi and I wrap up last week’s thoughtful conversation on diversity, equity and inclusion with mechanics for your board by-laws recruiting committee’s decision making oversight metrics. He’s our legal contributor and principle of Neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group attorneys take to act blue. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPS guiding you Beyond the numbers wagner cps dot com By Tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four, four nine nine nine Here is Matt Scott with Flash fund-raising Matt Scott is CEO of Cause Mike and an industry leading Non-profit fundraiser. He helped Team Rubicon scale from two hundred fifty thousand dollars in annual revenue in two thousand eleven to thirty million dollars in two thousand seventeen twenty seventeen. He’s led the company to help a diverse range of non-profits raise millions of dollars online, including Movember Volunteers of America and the Humane Society. He’s at Matt B. B. A, and the company is at cause Mike Crew and cause. Mike dot com Matt Scott Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me really appreciate it. Pleasure, Pleasure. We’re gonna talk about flash fund-raising. And so I presume that the first thing Teo need to have in place is preparation so that you know, like what kinds of topics and issues are going to cause you tow burst into this flash Yeah, absolutely. So we kind of defined flash fund-raising as any time bound campaign, meaning it’s not going to be an evergreen campaign they’ve got running all the time. But to your point, Tony, it’s really rooted in in this notion of what kind of big moment they’re related to. The impact of your non-profit has in the world is newsworthy. Right? So how do you leverage or capitalize on those newsworthy moments? They relate to your organisation in order to raise funds and awareness. And Dr supporters Okay, so we really kind of finding is that Yeah. And, you know, if something relates to your mission in the news on and you are silent, you know, then I think you risk becoming irrelevant. Yeah, that’s exactly right. I mean, whether you were somebody like our client u s A for UNHCR working with, you know, refugee communities all around the world, or you’re someone like Mercy Corps who we work with. Who could capitalize on, uh, you know, the hurricane in Puerto Rico or the earthquake. And, Paul, you really gotta look for opportunities to be relevant in the news cycle. It’s an opportunity for you, Really, You know, both get your brand out there, but also to acquire new supporters. How How suddenly do you need to be ableto activate when we’re going to get to the preparation? Were not act activation yet launching yet. But I mean, how how quickly do you need to be ready to go? Yeah. I mean, I think it’s really important that that you’ve got the systems and process and method in place in order to capitalize on a news cycle within those first twelve to twenty four hours. I mean, if you take something like Hurricane Hardy Urmila Maria last year and you look a, you know, just really what does that cycle look like? It’s within the first twenty four to forty eight hours where the news is mace drawn to it. And that’s when you’ve got the greatest opportunity, too. Galvanize your base of supporters as well as engaged new supporters. I would say you need to move quickly within the first twenty four hours on the news cycle. In order, Teo really kind of be relevant. And then so I guess tangential to this because we’re talking about fund-raising. But you also want to have a communications plan in place so that you can activate quickly. Journalists. You want to be in touch with bloggers, other influence leaders influencers that you want to be in touch with when again when you know as you’re saying, something hits the news. So you can you can activate quickly on the communication side. Not, you know, not fund-raising related, but trying to get out to the media. Bloggers fear, etcetera. Exactly. I think of kind of two approaches to the communications plan, and both of them you absolutely had on in the head are all about being prepared. The first one is having a list of media outlets in building a relationship with those media outlets and people there prior to master over some news moment, right? So that they know that you’re a trusted source. You don’t want to use that news moment as a as a chance to reach out to them cold. You really kind of want to build that relationship in advance. Also, you want to think about how do you make it as easy as possible for you to be featured as a subject matter expert in the event of a newsworthy event? How are you going to make. It is easiest possible for them to ask you critical questions or to provide context of how your organization is driving impact to solve whatever problem it is that you’re facing. The second piece of it is really comes down to having a multi-channel communications plan, and this is a lot more in the work, you know, in the control of the non-profit. So that includes everything from, you know, SMS. Mmm. So text messaging, chap pot, email, marketing, social media, paid ad paid search How do you develop like a full multi-channel communications plan that ultimately has a single narrative and across all of those channels, but the actual messages slightly different, unique to those channel requirement. Yeah, excellent. Excellent. And listeners you’ll remember had Peter panepento on, and I think it was December and around his book, which I can remember the name of. But we talked all about communications plan and a public relations and a media strategy. Take back public relations. That’s not quite right having a media strategy. And we did talk about what what Matt is talking about, you know, having in place relationships and a plan in advance. So if you want to hear a flower on on a media strategy, including flash moments, go to tony martignetti dot com and just search Peter panepento and that that show will come up. It was a pressure was last December, or was it was November. Okay, so, Matt, so thanks for that. Well, digression on communications. I put you on the spot because that’s not your not your expertise. But thanks for thanks for weighing. And that was that was valuable. Um, all right, so let’s go back to strictly the fund-raising. And what what technology do you need to have in place in advance? Yeah, that’s a great question. So first and foremost, you need I make sure that you have a sierra. Some of our favorite theorems, their sales force for kind of some other organizations that wanted fund-raising solution. All in one, there’s Sierra something like fund-raising straight AA lot of more established organizations. They’re using products like, uh, like blackbaud, Right. But at the end of the day, you wantto want a place where you can collect dahna information as those donations start to come in. Beyond that, you also need to think about like, the top of funnel. So from acquisition, how are you really keeping track of which acquisition channels are working? So if you put out those paid Searcher paid social ads, how can you ensure that you’re seeing return on investment? You need a way to capture thie email address at the very least of the supporter or some form of communication, like a phone number, so we can text you also, of course, need a way to collect donations. So some of our favorite platforms for that include give lively, which is entirely free for non-profits pretty much disrupting the space right now. Getting integrate seamlessly with sales for you also got stuff like classy or fund-raising, both excellent classrooms and innovative sales lorts. And so you want to have a way to kind of take those donations right? But you also want to have an email service provider in place and, increasingly, more and more our clients. They’re seeing a lot of success around text messages and using SMS and Chapa. So we think it’s really important that you also have, you know, leverage a platform like Twill Leo, which you know is an amazing product that is near free for non-profits on and allows you to send one on one SMS and mmm messages to your constituents. So I think in terms of overall, you need a way to acquire and track your acquisition channels. You need to see our AMAH place deposits that in for me, Agent, you need to make sure that you have a way to process donations. Then you gotta have on the communication side, at the very least, a stronger but no service provider as well as an ability to text message your your constituents. I say those are the fundamental elements. Of course, there’s a lot of other a lot of other things that can go into a great text back, But those were really the fundamental Okay, we’re gonna take our first break. Matt. When we come back, I’m gonna, uh, tease out something that you sort of suggested. You didn’t say it, but I just sort of blackbaud razor’s edge. I wonder if those air getting antiquated even though they’re so huge. I mean that not those that razor’s edge product. So we’re going to die aggressive labbate. So give thought to that You got, like, thirty seconds and then I’m going to be on spot again pursuant their newest free E book, The Art of First Impressions. It’s all about donor-centric track new donors making it You need to make that smashing hit first impression. That’s what this is about. The book. It’s got six Guiding principles of Ineffective acquisition strategy. How to Identify your Unique value. Plus, it’s got some creative tips. You’ll find it at the landing. Paid the listener landing page tony dot m a slash pursuing capital P for please. All right, now, let’s go back. Tio, Matt Scott and Flash Fund-raising. So So, Matt, it was just like an inflection and you’re in your voice. Is blackbaud becoming, ah, dinosaur, even though it’s enormous in the market? Or Or did I misread your tongue? Uh uh, political answering this question now he’s hitting on you at the end of the day. Here’s what I’ll say. We’ve moved dozens of organizations off blackbaud and on they’ll force. We have yet to move anybody from sales first blackbaud. Um, but at its core, this is this is kind of the fundamental difference on, you know, sales forces really disrupted the space and the main different. You’ve got an open source platform where you’re able to use best in class female service. Best in class. Uh, you know, text messaging or best in class fund-raising. And you’re able to integrate all of those things in an open way where blackbaud forces you really to use their products. So when you think about you know it’s really come down the innovation, it seems like everybody else’s innovating. And and I think that it’s really important that non-profits go down the way where they’re going to have the ability to capitalized on major trends in the market, like the ability to monitor what’s going on on social media or the ability to really robotically track. Uh, you know, your ad spending conversion and as far as I can tell it can’t say that I You know, I’m all knowing about Blackbaud by any means. But I will say that, you know, we’ve been very satisfied with sales force and the ability to recommend that in class solutions to our non-profit clients that integrate into a system seamlessly really interesting. I So I’m boiling it down to open source versus proprietary. Ifyou’re on Blackbaud, you’ve got to use their plug ins. You gotta buy there. You gotta buy their add ons exactly. Right. At the end of the day, they weren’t forced to innovate. They were really the only players in the field of battle, you know, five years ago. And that makes a really big difference. The sales force still have first ten licenses for ah non-profit are free. That’s correct, gang. With the non president’s success, pack the first ten licenses training non-profit or free. Um, And then you’ve got to, like, give lively right there. Entirely free non-profits that integrated sales, They’re seamlessly. You’ve got a lot of non-profit discounts for Tulio. Male chimps. You got a lot of options there that just aren’t available. Okay, Okay. Say, Say what? What? What’s the programme again called on Sales Force sales force. What? Oh, non-profit success back. Okay, we’re given unpaid, unpaid shoutout to sales force because all right, so I think they need it. Yeah, right. They should be our biggest. Have four corporate sponsors. They should be the largest stations. Should be owning this. No owning this show. No, I own the show. It’s like a carry away. It’s not Salesforce non-profit radio, but yeah, they OK, I agree. All right, So I heard you. I heard you’re right. I read you. Right. I’m glad. Okay. Um, so we’re still in the preparation stage. You’ve got something called a campaign kit. What? What is this? We’re still in preparation. Yeah. Yeah. So really help our fine set up in advance, right? Like, what is that Multi-channel communications plan Look like? You need to make sure we have clearly defined brand guidelines. So what is your voice? What is your tone with style? Uh, what do you want to get out there? It’s really important. We start going across all these different channels because you want people to know, to be familiar with your brand. You want them, whether it’s the first that they’re hearing about you or their longtime supporters, you don’t want any surprises, right? You want someone to know this is a team Rubicon, This is mercy. This is the Humane Society. I know that because it’s strong. Brand guy won. Second thing you want to do is have a graphic kit teed up. So let’s say that you’re you know, the origin Humane Society. One of the clients. They respond to disasters as well. So if you know that that’s not your primary mission. But it’s something that is a service you provide. So when there’s wild fires, for example, they went down to California and rescued puppies and kittens to what other lies have been displaced. They pre-tax and we set up graphics in advance that had direct needs that showcase the work that they were doing that connected a supporter. The actual impact in the field. You also want to have a list of talking points, right? These are things that anybody on your team can point to, a reference that Khun clearly simply articulate. Exactly the you know what the purpose of your work is. That’s a really key point. And finally you really wantto have kind of the sample emails. Text Pete up. So these air urgent appeal emails are urgent appeals tax that clearly again demonstrates your target audience. The impact that you’re having, the fields and the urgency. It is important the customizes for each and every event. So it’s important that you don’t just think about it. It’s like, Okay, I’m sending out this temple it every time. Uh, but at the same time, there are, you know, there are certain aspects of it that you can pre planned for us. The final piece of, you know, kind of a campaign hit, if you will, is segmentation. We spend a lot of time helping our clients segments, their communications. It’s all about meeting each and every constituents on their preferred platform with their preferred message. There prefer time Dr Conversions to derive from using for the non-profit. So we like to think about donor-centric fund-raising and advocate. And within each of those major profile sites you need to develop a multi-channel communication plan, cleared grand guidelines, great visual, clear messaging on the talking points and lots of appeal. That action. What about making this all or subsets of it available publicly so that you can engage some people who might want to do their own like Peer-to-peer campaign around your your flash campaign, you share these share the stuff publicly. Absolutely. You just hit it on the head, Tony. I mean, you talk about Peer-to-peer fund-raising, right? These are people who are passionate about your cause, but they’re not professional. Fundez. Yeah, right. You have to deliver to them the tools and the messages that will resonate with care with your potential supporters, their friends and family. At the same time, the majority of people who donate to a peer-to-peer fund-raising page are not really in it to support the organization. They’re basically in it to get their friend their family off their back, over off their doors. Kept that at the end of the day, how do you transition somebody from being? I made a donation to Tony, too. I made a donation to U. S. A. For UNHCR. Yeah. Lorts begin to send them through the channels. So that bad because our okay, we’ll spend more time talking about making that transition. Where do you like to share? Where would you like to see clients share these docks for the people who wanted take it to the next level and do their own peer-to-peer fund-raising. Well, my favorite is keep it easy. And I think text messaging is rapidly becoming the way that we distribute fund-raising coaching serious tio clients. Fund-raising techniques like favorite. Okay. First for sharing the tools for people to create their own peer-to-peer campaigns. Oh, yeah. Okay. Where you going? Where’d you like to put the repository of these? The tools the guidelines. You know, the graphics, etcetera of the sample emails that people can use. What? Where do you like to see that stuff put? Yeah, I mean, if you if you’re only gonna host it in one place, having on a site the you own your own website, It is really important. But I actually think it makes a lot more sense to break it off over time and defended out by a tax ID. Now, you know, don’t give it to him all of once, but instead send them little bits of information that they could take action on right away to drag. Okay, so, like so, like, every every twelve hours. You mean in this in this Because this is going well, this is going to be pretty short lived campaign, right? We’re talking about, like, a week or two or something isn’t even that long. Yeah. Yeah, I think two weeks is actually the okay. So how often do you sending out tio thes people who really want to activate the next level do their own peer-to-peer campaigns. How often you sending out new stuff to them by text with? Within the first twenty four hours, You want to send things out like two, three times, and then it tapers off. So then it’s kind of every day for the first week, and then you want you want to kind of spacing out every other day. You can kind of run spring in in three day period. We find that that’s the max that anybody wants to receive multiple communications per day. But that’s where that multi-channel engagement strategy comes into play. Thinking, email, social. A phone call, right? You’re kind of sharing the burning across channels so that they’re interacting with your brandy today on getting kissy stay. But it’s not always delivering the same channel. OK, OK, What about, um, having some influencers like pre positioned that people that you know are going toe? Uh, create that peer-to-peer campaign. Or at least if they’re not going to do a campaign, they’re goingto help you get the message out. But having this in the, you know the prepare a story of proprietary stages, you got ten or twelve key influences, you know, love your mission. You know, if it’s UNHCR, the High Commissioner for Refugees and there’s a refugee crisis, you know they’re going to jump on it, these ten or twelve people? What about having those relationships in place so that they’ll start blogging? They’ll start emailing whatever you know, whatever they do, treating Teo help you build momentum. What about having those relationships in place in advance? Oh, absolutely. That’s the preference. I mean, one of the great examples that comes to mind right off that is Anson Mount, who’s a great celebrity supporter. Team Rubicon, Um, you know, building up that relationship with Anson in advance and then basically empowering him. And so create custom fund-raising Vegas for Anson to be ableto fund-raising for Team Rubicon in the event of a disaster in Texas. So he was, you know, filming a television show for A in Texas, and it was a perfect opportunity for him to reach out his constituents. But all that was set up in advance of the disaster season to be more or less knew that most likely there will be a disaster in Texas, that here they’re setting up that influence relationship, giving him the talking points e-giving in the sample Social media post really empowered into Ray’s about forty eight thousand dollars Teamviewer response to flooding in Houston All right. I’m gonna admit that I’m a pop culture. No, nothing. I don’t know this guy, Anson. Who is that? Uh, it’s amount is, uh well, he’s huge co-branded teamviewer columns of a great celebrity Porter. But even after, um and he was the lead on hell on wheels and he also most recently played in a marvel movie as well on, you know, fair track, maybe. Okay, he’s a great guy. Okay, I’m sure he is, but it’s, uh, you know, I’m not. Yeah. I mean, if you’d said Al Pacino, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t have asked you. Who is that? You know, So I got a bunch of clients who were looking for that pompel ball club buddies. Support has been even relating. Yes. Uh, okay. Just generational difference. No problem. Okay. All right, So we got we got everything in preparation now its launch time, and we need to know who’s gonna who’s gonna pull the trigger, right? Yeah, we having a clearly defined who Didn’t your maker go? No, go critical because, like, we already talked about first twenty four hours Really important. So we recommend Ma Bargain was down with too much process. It’s important for you really have, uh, you know, check the balance is in terms of copy, make sure the things that spell correctly that you’re not speaking or offer ends, but that decision to go or no go she’s really lead with a single person. So they’re they’re given the information that says we feel like for all intensive purposes, with traffic, it’s really high, you know, highly spoke about in the media. Let go, or we feel like that. If we were to activate right now, we wouldn’t really necessarily be included in on the conversation. We’re not going to get a lot of media. It could get a lot of in front of a lot of supporters then. Probably not going. Why would you feel the ladder? What would lead you to conclude? To not not activate? Yeah, I mean, well, let’s take you could be popular. That disaster response here. Let’s take hurting. Hold the urn and Maria write one hit after another. You have to begin to really think about Donorsearch a Teague and the fatigue of of society as a whole. So timing is really important. Hyre segment of your communications. Which media outlets he reached out to, you got to take into account how much you’ve already gone through. You know, your supporter lists and how much you’ve already asked them. So that really influenced things. Like a decision. That’s just one data point. Like what’s the frequency of the storm Who was hit how long ago to be asked for support? Um, how did Airbase responded that those are some of the elements. Okay, Okay, so s so if we decide not to go, then the show’s over. So the conversation over. So let’s go the other way. Now, let’s decide that way. Are gonna we’re gonna launch. Um what? What? What’s What’s first thing we need to do, the CEO or whoever the decision maker is, has said yes, she’s approved. Where do we go now? Yes, this is where if you have a fund-raising tool like fund-raising classic, give lively. You got that? Get that fund-raising page set up right away. Home and because you already have, you know, kind of prefect communications plan that we talked about. You begin to activate that. So you get those emails in place, you begin to send out, start with the channels that are really busy. So text messaging doesn’t take long. Social media doesn’t take wrong. And depending on what your brand you know, look, it feels like it’s important not to miss good for great meaning. People want to see what’s going on behind the scenes. So if you’re responding to disasters and example and you’re in the planning phase and you’re really getting ready for a response that you don’t get have powerful visuals of light the people affected by Thorne it’s important to show that behind the scenes wolf because it’s raw, It’s interesting and it’s easy to get out. So I would say, Start with channels that are really easy to just share information with and then work your way towards the channels that are more work, like email, where you’ve got a draft more more. Give me some examples of that behind the scenes early on. I guess that’s like first twelve hours or so content. Like what? Yeah, so examples might include, uh, your team monitoring storm. Or they might include in from, you know, meeting time that you’re preparing or getting your go bags around here. Any equipment you need to get out the door. What’s happening? Place dramatically behind the scenes. In the case of refugees like, you’ve got terms of people working around the clock trying to find out more information from the field so that the field team can make informed decisions. All that kind of content is interesting and engaging, and it can just be shot on a smartphone, right? Just simple. There are updates. Maybe it’s somebody from your field team or your program. He’s literally just shooting a thirty second video that you know is framed. Well, well lit light in your face horizontally shot. Just quick tips on how to make them look better without spending a lot of money. But it’s just someone standing there saying, like, Look, this is These are the actions that were taking right now, and it’s thanks to the generous support of supporters like you, where we’re looking for people who financially contribute were dedicated to solving this crisis. This is what we’re doing Those air, like really, really impactful communications. Yeah, people do like, behind the scenes, absolutely that you’re drawing them into the crisis before as it’s unfolding to you that you’re trying to learn more, you know, you’re keeping them informed. I mean, if you’re going to fund-raising around a crisis or an incident, Um you Ah, yeah. I mean, you want to draw them in and you said something that really struck me. Please, when you when you’re doing quick video, please. Please hold. Hold the phone horizontally, not vertically. Act can’t stand those little frames. You get a little one inch by one inch frames you get when it’s vertical, for God sake. Okay, this is, uh we’re running a little long, so, um, let’s let’s go to engagement. So we’ve already We’ve already launched. We got our You’ve already talked about SMS and M M s and having chatbots replaced. Let’s move to engagement now. Yes, this is really the most the most important part, right. Uh, be your authentic self. So first and foremost, we want to express gratitude in a compelling and interesting, unique way. I highly recommend using a tool called can written. Um, this is one of our favorite tools for clients and integrate seamlessly with sales for us. It allows you to literally send and written cards by a robot, um, to each and every one of your supporters and comic, We actually have, like, a great pricing deal with them. So Chan, this plug there, but you’ve been retired there, But anyway, I think starting with a few card is really important. Is that going to help you stand out? The second thing you want to do is you want to send somebody through a new supporter. Welcome. Serious. And this is different, depending on whether they made a one time gift a recurring gift. But the serious should really be focused on first and foremost, expressing gratitude and immediately shifting toward the impact that they’re having in the field. Yeah, sure. Right. We like to talk about it. OK, that I’m going to give you give you an extra minute. Let’s go toe up. Great. Let’s goto let’s jump to upgrading. You touched on it earlier. You want to move these these one time donors to something more? You got a minute? I’m holding you to it. Yeah, so basically up their strategy is if you’ve got a one time donor-centric heidtke percent most e-giving difficult to do in a minute. But I would say Send them through a multi-channel supporter. Welcome serious. Quantify that impact present to them opportunities upgrade to a mostly get. To be honest, you can come to cosmic dot com on download our free guide on how to build a month e-giving program in ninety days. And I think that’s all I could do in a minute. Okay, that’s all right. Okay, so But it’s important to try to move These donors passed the incident that you were flash fund-raising for. Okay. Sametz got CEO of Cause Mike. You’ll find him at Matt b B a. And the company is at cause Mike Crew and cause mike dot com Where you could go for the resource is Matt just mentioned that Scott. Thank you very, very much. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. We need to take a break. Wittner, CPS. They have a new archive. Webinar for you. It’s accounting update. What has changed that? Wagner knows intimately, and you just need to know the basics off. That’s what they’re going to cover for. You. You don’t want to know the bait. You don’t want to know the intimacy of it. You just need the basics. For instance, new requirements for financial statements. You might not like to know a little about that, all right, and there’s other stuff that they cover in this accounting. Update. Webinar Go to Wagner cps dot com. Click Resource is then webinars to view the archive. Hey, it’s time now for Tony’s take Do I’m back Live ActBlue. Yes, ActBlue. I’m very grateful to them. They are non-profit Radios Sponsor, Premier, sponsor AT and TC Thie twenty nineteen Non-profit Technology conference. It’s March thirteen to fifteen in Portland, Oregon. P D. X. We are in a booth together. Boots five o eight and five ten. I’ll be doing tons of interviews for the show, Of course, that will be using over the ensuing months, and ActBlue will talk. Be talking to folks about the value of small dollar donations. You know them for political fund-raising Grassroots fund-raising three billion dollars worth over three billion dollars worth. Think about them for your non-profit fund-raising getting small dollar donations into the mix. That’s what they’ll be talking about. Um, they have a giveaway they have on site training. Giveaway on site. Did I say on site training giveaway that we’ll be doing at the booth? So come see us. I’ll be doing lots of interviews. Come say hello. If you’re at ntcdinosaur course, come buy boots five o eight five ten. Say hello to me. Metoo folks from ActBlue thank them for sponsoring ActBlue at the conference. Ah, and there’s a little more AA plus. Ah, mention of how hard it is to get good video talent on my video at tony martignetti dot com. And we’ll be talking about this more. Nineteen ninety Si, always a pleasure to welcome Gene Gene, the law machine. He’s our man. He’s the managing attorney of Neo, the Non-profit and exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits the enormously popular non-profit law blogged dot com. He’s the American Bar Association’s twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer. He’s at G tak G Ta k. What else can I say about him? The best thing I think I most enjoy saying is Welcome back, Jean. Thanks, Tony. It’s great to be back. Yes, after just last week. Um, you were the twenty sixteen. You know, you realize now that that American Bar Association Outstanding non-profit lawyer thing, that’s three years old. Now it is. So we’re gonna have to get a new tagline for that or something. Are you going to run again? Can you? Can you be nominated again? I think maybe when I retire Tony, hopefully that’s some years away from that. That’s the Lifetime Achievement award. Yeah. You want to stay away from those? That’s that’s a death knell. Lifetime achievement award. You’re coming to a close when you get one of those. So you don’t You don’t want that yet. Okay? I want to thank you again for our very thoughtful the conversation last week. I don’t know. How does thoughtful, sincere conversation on this difficult diversity equity inclusion topic. I listened back to it on di just Thank you. That’s what I want to thank you very much for doing it. And for being a generous and sharing partner with me. Well, thank you for having that discussion with me to Tony that those air difficult discussions toe have, but I think really necessary ones. And it’s great to share that. Share it with the audience. Yeah, absolutely necessary. On DSO now, this week, which we didn’t get the cover. We want to turn some of this discussion into some action points for the board, and you have a lot of ideas around the board’s by-laws. Yeah, I think that’s right. So, you know, once you’ve committed that that, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion our topic of last weekend today are really part of the fabric of your organization’s core Vallon. You’ve got a champion for that, and they see it is organizational values they want on Believin in an equitable a system where you know all people are created equal and should have equal protections of law on equal rights. Unequal access. Once you’ve decided that that really is something that you want to do. And it’s not just about furthering your mission, which, you know, might be, too, um, advanced after school education. But you want to do it an equitable manner so that you’re not just favoring one you know group over other groups. And so once that’s decided, I think a really good sign of embedding those values into the organization is to put it in the organizational policies and the by-laws are really one of the core governing documents of the organization, and they’re really provisions there that can reflect the board’s commitment to diversity, equity and inclusions. Okay, um, and there’s, uh, there’s a lot that the board Khun do. Some of this is difficult. I want to point people to your blood post at non-profit law block dot com. You go into more detail there, and we have time for today about different provisions within the by-laws. But one that struck me is the is the selection of directors, and, well, I guess it’s too at the way you have The Post organized the selection directors in the qualification of directors, you know, again, challenging gets into should there be quotas or not? But, you know, say a little. It’s a little about the that selection and the qualification of directors. That was really apparent. So you know, a lot of people are focused on Well, the boards of non-profit organizations are really no more diverse, and they were twenty years ago. And sadly, that’s you know, with many non-profit leaders saying diversity on our board, this really important but not no riel action taken, you know, a sector over the last twenty years, and boards are still disproportionately dominated by white people and not with a lot of people of color, particularly in leadership positions. And the bigger the organizations are. Those discrepancies get get even worse. White males were talking about white males. Yeah, primarily, although there are a lot of females on especially smaller organization board, but still not not a lot of women of color on those boards. So addressing kind of some of those, you know, the discrepancy between non-profit leaders saying, this is really important, and the lack of action or achievement in advancing diverse boards or board composed of diverse populations is problematic. And so it’s not an easy thing to fix. But one of the things that you may think about is to determine Well, how are you? You know, qualifying board members. Do you have certain qualifications that say, you know, we we need board members toe, have this background with this education, or come from this particular area? Um, is that a good thing or bad thing? You know, sometimes you can say a quota like you mentioned way want, you know, a minimum of thirty percent of our board members. Uh, to be made up of women. So, you know, recently there’ve been some movement. California, I think, being going on one of the states in which they said, if you’re a public company operating here based in California, that you must have a certain percentage of women on your board by certain period Oh, interest line, though. Having a quota for non-profit corporations on board when when they haven’t really moved very much, could be effective. But there is sort of the disadvantage of Well, what if we said, you know, they had to be, uh, no, fifty percent Asian American? Andi, let’s say an organization and serving Asian American communities, we said the board has to be composed of fifty percent Asian Americans. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? And, um, you know, that’s a little bit more tricky to discuss. If we’ve got, uh, you know, uh, population where they’ve not been, where they’ve been marginalized and they haven’t been reflected. Well, fifty percent might be a good thing in terms of we. We’re not going to make them tokens in this organization if it was ah white dominated board, for example. But compare that if we said, Well, at least ten percent of our board must be African Americans, and we’ve got, you know, eight people on our board. So that means one boardmember they’re going to look for to be an African American person. And how are they going to feel if you know the reason they were picked? Because they’re African American. You know, that’s that was the determining criteria that you can’t really do it that way. I think you shouldn’t do it that way. That’s my opinion. So if you’re going to set a quota, you have to make sure that you’re looking at overall what your needs on the board are. So maybe you say, Well, we you know our serving African American population so we don’t have anybody African American on our board. So we lost that perspective of knowing how best to serve these communities. But bringing one member on the board and saying, Well, you represent all African Americans and give us your take on what they need is unfair. Yeah, that’s not only not only unfair but silly, it’s not fair to the person and just unreasonable Jean, I have to take a break. Got it pursuant their newest No, that’s Ah, that’s actually not the break that I need to take. The day break I need to take is tell us, can you use more money? You need a new revenue source. You know, you get the long stream of passive revenue when the cos you re far too Tello’s process their credit card transactions with Tello’s watched the video, then send the potential companies to the video. So it’s at tony dot m a slash Tony Tello’s We got to do the live listener love Oh, and there’s a ton of it to holy mackerel. Way far out. Well, whoa! Let’s go abroad. Um Brazil. Beirut, Lebanon. Seoul, South Korea. Bangalore, India. Hanoi, Vietnam. Lima, Peru. Moscow, Russia, Iraq in Baghdad and Yosh Car Ola in Russia Also well live listener Love to all the foreign listeners. That’s remarkable. Live love out to you Here in the States. I’ve got multiple New York New York. We’ve got Tampa, Florida got Providence, Utah, not Providence, Rhode Island, Providence, Utah Hello, Utah. Live love to the listeners who are with us at this very moment and the podcast pleasantries to those who are with us. At some other moment, maybe a couple days. Weeks could even be sometimes, you know, I see downloads Not uncommon, you know, like eight weeks later. Wherever, wherever we fit into your life into your podcast listening regiment pleasantries to you, the podcast listeners. All right, Jean, Thank you for that. Um, yeah, expecting. I mean, that’s that’s just gross tokenism and unreasonable, you know, expecting one person to reflect on the entire community, even if it’s just a neighborhood, you know? That’s that’s awful. Alright, so again, you know, like we talked about last, you and I talked about last week. We said between the two of us were these things, they’re challenges. He’s issued a challenge, but they’re not insurmountable. Theyjust take thought, you know, and some back and forth. But the these challenges can be overcome. I think so, too tiny. So, you know, you may determine on the board that you’re looking for a new board members, but not only to bring you perspective with respect to a particular population that your organization may serve. But you also may need somebody with the financial manager with background and somebody who lives in a particular geographic area and now you know how to get your candidates. He made sort of way in all of those things, and this might be house on some universities determined who to accept. You know their students when when they assess their applications, there’s sort of taking a look at all of the things and maybe the fact that a particular candidate is African American. And the example I gave to you where there is nobody with that identity on the board currently is a heavier weighting factor. But the fact that that person also has this financial experience and also comes from the geographic area that’s also not represented him. We have to think of of identity groups of being intersectional because, for example, I’m not just Asian American. I’m also a male. I also have a certain educational background. You know, certain social economic status, certain physical ability, status, a certain sexual orientation, certain gender identification, and we all encompass multiple multiple identities, and we bring different things to the table. So just sort of thinking about that and how people can contribute to an organisation overall and how you might waste certain things a little bit more at a particular period of time because it’s underrepresented in your organization. And I think you just have to sort of treated as a totality. And so while quotas, I can be helpful in some ways, especially if the board has shown no movement, adding just one member to take a good picture. And I think wait, talked about sure is in a terrible reason. You do it. So you want to make sure that you’re giving that person or those persons, preferably two or three board members. Toe bring in if you’re. If you’re picking a racial identity group, I I think really they’re bringing two or three people in minimum. Um, if you don’t have any persons that that belonged to that group, existing is really important. And making sure they have a voice and power within the organization. Well, athletic ability. I’ve seen pictures of you playing soccer. Is that your? Is that your sport now? Okay. That volleyball was a volleyball. Okay, about volleys, E. I thought you were bouncing a ball off your head, but that wouldn’t be followed. Well, that’s not that’s not good volleyball. So maybe I remember wrong. That was years ago. But I remember I don’t know. Maybe you were giving me potential pictures for a head shot or something Where they were on your website. It was playing was playing viable alt-right you’re in the sand. You’re like you’re wearing a suit in your barefoot in the sand, aren’t you? Rate a little bit old now, but yeah. Go play. Okay. Volleyball. All right, all right. Um, so let’s move. All right, so that’s that’s That’s very well said, Gene. And again, your block Post at non-profit law block dot com was into a lot of other areas in the by-laws of terms of meetings, compensation, different committees. That was a good committees. Well, we did talk about you having I made the point of having a diverse committee versus diversity committee. You make a good you make a good point in the post About diversity Committee could be valuable not being a committee of the board, because then it could be more inclusive. And you don’t consider you don’t have to bring everyone into your board. You don’t worry about expanding your board flesh out a little bit. That diversity committee that’s not a part of the board. Yeah, so you know, there there, maybe, at least in the initial attempts, difficulty to bring in that particular identity group to your organization. If you’re not really doing anything with you know that targets programs or that targets a particular aspects of what you do with respect to that identity group. So I’ll use Native Americans, for example, on DH saying, Well, we don’t have any programs that when we’re not planning on any, but we would sure like to have somebody who brings us that perspective with respect to what we do, Well, that’s going to be hard for somebody to want to be on the board, just to give you their perspective unless they’re tied to the organization in multiple other ways. But if you are looking for them just to sort of give you a little bit of voice, they might be a little bit more amenable to joining the committee that, you know, that might have a limited life man to see you know whether you really should be addressing Native Americans in your programming. Or maybe you’ve got a Native Americans on your staff, and you’re not really sort of thinking about what their particular perspectives or needs might be. That might be different from from other people. So, um, breaking committees together at hot committees or task forces and bringing in people from different backgrounds. Teo give you some advice, You know, on a high level might be a good way to start, and eventually that might lead Teo bringing them onto the board. If if you know it gets further along and you want to empower them and their ideas and they’ve got great things to contribute and you know it’s a way to bring your values that you are the organization’s agreed upon values. You know, more toa wife in what they’re doing by having the perspective. You also say that one of the activities of that diversity committee could be to conduct a diversity audit or D d I on it. Not just deficit but diversity, Equity inclusion, audit on DH giving that report voice. And then there’s a question where that should be public or not. But I thought that was that was particularly striking as well. Had an impact that can really be helpful to an organisation because you don’t know what you don’t know. And if you don’t have other perspective on it, you may never be able to find out. So bringing those people in-kind can really help. We gotta take our last break Gene. When we come back, let’s let’s talk about some decision making some oversight on a switch away from the from the by-laws nous. Really, our last break is text to give. Can you use more money? I need a new revenue source. Here’s the second one was repeated. Another way of doing it. Mobile giving learn about it with text to gives five part email. Many course fiv e mails away one a day break through some of the MS no mers and misunderstandings around what it takes to get into a text to give program the way to get the five part many course, which is five emails. One a day, you text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. All right, and we have got several more minutes with Gene for for our DEA and governance, too. Conversation, um, some decision making. Jean. You know, the basically, um, you know the oversight. How does that on DH? How does how does that how is that influenced by thes de issues suren and another really challenging area that that can be very organizational specifics. I’m going to really be speaking in generalities here, or maybe giving you a few examples of what it might be. But and I think first, you know, people who are leaders and nonprofit organizations really talk about being, you know, mission centric really centered. You know, all of their decisions should be made based on on advancing the mission in the best way possible. But, you know, with respect to some organizations if you advance your mission, but without considering your values, you really Khun go a stray from what you want the organization to be, so you know you’re You might feed homeless people, for example. But certain minority groups might be excluded because they aren’t receiving communications about those services in the language they understand or you might educate students. But you’re only serving those who can access your school, which might be in a more wealth the community and you might be protecting the environment, but not in places where marginalized communities lived. And in one example that’s close to the Bay Area, you might be. You might have an immense, an impactful grantmaking program, but failed to protect your employees from harassment and discrimination. Right? And so embedding D I values in how you oversee your organization and how you plan for their future and how you set policies. It’s really important because they can address all of those things, and there’s no shortage of examples where you know your values and diversity. Equity inclusion are not part of it where things could go go wrong. So hiring the CEO, selecting consultants, determining executive compensation How do you evaluate executive? All of those things don’t be influenced by the valleys that the organization have. And if you know, diverse, equitable and inclusive, um, practices are really what you wanted your organization to stand for. And really you think that’s going to be the best way to advance your mission and have, ah, happy, satisfied, fulfilled staff and volunteers and happy donors? I think you’ve got to start thinking about those things. You’re raising your raising consciousness. You know, again, we’re shifting from discussion toe action. If your organization is committed to d I as a core value, you know, then you’re you’re raising consciousness about what you could actually do to act on it and not just talk about it at board meetings. Let’s take a minute. You We only have about two minutes left. Was there a case in San Francisco that you were referring to her? That you said the Bay Area where our non-profit got into some trouble or what? Yeah, it was more a PR issue, but with Silicon Valley Community Foundation here, one of the biggest truckers in the world, you know, you know, they they ran into some some employees harassment at issue. And maybe, uh, leadership there was was not looking at that particular issue as muchas, sort of their core mission rather than than the set of values. So it really is just an important part of every organization I think is how you carry out your mission, Not just what your mission is. Yeah. Um, all right. I feel like, you know, we’re a little short, but I feel like we should wrap it there, Gene, because that’s I think that’s just perfect. Perfect. Wayto summarize our hour and a half of conversation. So I thank you again for covering this having this conversation, these conversations with me. Thank you so much Sharing, Gene. Great. Thank you, Tony. You’ll find him at G Tack. And, of course, non-profit. Lob log dot com Gene Gene, the law machine for insiders. Gene and I are going to talk about diversity, equity inclusion and your financial planning next week, your CEO board chair relationships with Aisha Nyandoro. And that’s going to spill over into a little about what Gene and I were talking about about intentionality of the selection of your board members. Because I know that we’re going to cover that because pre recorded that with Isha, see how it all blends together should not happen. Stance, for God’s sake. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled tourney dahna slash pursuant capital P by weather CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers Wagner cps dot com by Tell US credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy. Go ahead and text NPR to four four four nine nine nine. Fine. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this cool music is by Scots. Dine with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent. Go out and be great you’re listening to the talking alternative network. E-giving. You are listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in sometime potentially ater tune in every Tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show Yawned Potential live life Your way on talk radio dot n Y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Do you like comic books and movies? 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Nonprofit Radio for February 15, 2019: DEI & Governance

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Gene Takagi: DEI & Governance
Diversity, equity and inclusion run deeper than having folks of color on your board. Are you managing treatment, access and opportunity for non-white males? Gene Takagi and I talk through the issues, goals and methods. He’s our legal contributor and principal at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.




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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with like Oper diagnosis if you made me breathe in the idea that you missed today’s show. D I and governance, diversity, equity and inclusion run deeper than having folks of color on your board. Are you managing treatment, access and opportunity for non white males? Jean Takagi and I talk through the issues, goals and methods. He’s our legal contributor and principal at Neo Non-profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group on Tony Steak, too planned giving one piece at a time. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant but Wagner CPS guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye. Tell US Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mole donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine Always a genuine pleasure to welcome Jean Takagi back to the show. He’s managing attorney of Neo, the Non-profit and exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s the American Bar Association’s twenty sixteen, outstanding non-profit lawyer. He’s at G Tak. You know, it means Gene. Gene, the law machine. Welcome back, Jean Takagi. Thanks, Tony. How are you? It’s a pleasure to have you. I’m well, thank you. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you as well. Thank you. I think maybe this is just the first shot misses. And you’ve been on before? Yeah. You have been on to the new year. No, I haven’t. I think this might be the first one was the first buyer, and this is February fifteen thousand. Alright, well, so we wish you a happy New year anyway, on DH and I I hear you wishing it back. So thank you very much. It’s never too late. Never too late to say pleasant things to each other. Um all right. So diversity, diversity, equity and include vision. I feel like we should first identify our terms. That is that is that everybody knows that diversity, equity and inclusion are not the same thing. This is not like, what’s the law, you know, aiding and abetting. You know the law, he says. The synonyms mean the exact same thing. Break and enter or, you know, a dahna bet this’s not this is not that this is not that. So what? What? How would you define diversity? Arika? Well, I think you know, it’s a great point that that it’s not a belt and suspenders approach these three different terms, meaning three different things. So diversity, I think, is the range in way people different people differ, and it’s used often in reference to race, ethnicity, gender, age, national origin is big, and the news now religion, disability, sexual identity and orientation, socioeconomic status, marital status, language, physical appearance and just a number of other characteristics. So it’s just reflects the way that we’re all different from one another. Equity is the quality of being there, I think, with respect her rights and treatment, and access and opportunity and advancement for all people. It’s kind of the constitutional principles that we think of equal protections of the law and all of us having the right toe. Life, liberty and justice and persons and organizations that work towards a more equitable society focus on understanding the root causes of the inequities, and they’re looking to identify and eliminate barriers and, of course, increase justice and fairness, both on a micro level on on a macro level and that final term Tony inclusion is really the state of creating or maintaining environments in which any individual or group Khun B and feel welcomed, respected, supported and valley to fully participate, embracing differences among different people. So diversity gets us one part of the way. But without inclusion, diversity may mean very little. Yeah, on organization could be diverse. But that doesn’t mean that it’s inclusive because divers is just a photograph of ah, multi racial, multi ethnic, multi gender aboard. But that doesn’t mean that that that that board is inclusive on DH, creating the right kinds of environments like you’re talking about. Yeah, absolutely right. So if we you know, we might approach that that topic and in a bit. But if we just bring in people of marginalized communities like certain minority groups or certain gender groups or all of the other categories we talked about and they’re just tokens but not given any authority, and they just make for the good picture that you were talking about. Well, that’s not inclusive. Or and that’s not equitable at all. That’s just having diversity for diversity. Stake? Yeah. Yeah, for a good photograph and a like a check box or something. All right. So is this. Ah, well, this is an area that non-profits are, uh, working on. I mean, it’s an area that our whole countries working on. It’s it’s in our culture with black lives, matter and metoo and, uh, marriage, marital equality. So it’s this is not certainly certainly not unique to non-profits, but but our our national consciousness has been raised. Um, how do you feel? Or how are non-profits faring? I mean, and what do you see among the groups that you work with? Two? Sure. I mean, it’s a great point, Tony, that this is in our national conscience. And, uh, there are a lot of tension and controversies where these what I will think our our moral issues are at play, and we’re looking at legal solutions on sometimes opposites sides of what some people will consider moral and Justin, others might say, are not a matter of morality but my position. And I think the position of most of the organizations we’ve worked within. And I’ll note that we do work in San Francisco, and we work with them non-profits in New York as well. And those air, certainly, um, uh, centers that that might be seen as more liberal than other areas. But, uh, there are, I think, these basic beliefs that, you know, some people are born with certain advantages or disadvantages, no choice of their own. Some people are born with certain characteristics or abilities, and some are not have no choice of their own. And many of us believe that we should work TTO help assure that all people have equal rights, equal protection, equal opportunities. And that’s sort of the moral case for saying, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion in our non-profits really matters because if we’re not leading in these areas is a nonprofit sector there’s there’s a question about that’s not a core value, really, is what the work we’re doing just focused on benefiting certain groups and maintaining status quo and improving the status quote for certain people with power and privilege. So that’s that’s kind of where I stand on that. Yeah, um, we may as well just call this right out. I mean, I feel an obligation to do that, You know, when we say certain people, some people no fault of their own, whenever you know, born with privilege and power and status. I think talking well, We’re talking about white males. There’s a There’s a white male supremacy culture in the country. And, um, that’s what creates structures that are oppressive, you know, day to day to people who don’t enjoy that power and have that that perceived status and and you know it. It creates a lack of opportunity and oppression and, ah, difficulty and just like day to day struggle, that it’s hard. It’s hard to. It’s hard for others for me to appreciate. I try, but it’s hard to understand the full the full impact of it. And I appreciate that, Tony. It’s I mean, it’s a different I mean obviously a complex and difficult to discuss subject. It makes us all uncomfortable, which is part of the reason we need to have these discussions on the board level and on a broader organizational level. Let me sort of make one sort of caveat to all of this. In America, with white male culture can be seen is, you know, the dominant color alter with the power and privilege very fairly in various duitz. Observe that, and that’s obviously a very informed opinion that you have with others and I’ll even say it’s not an opinion. It really is a fact. But marginalization goes beyond race to, you know, and and gender. It goes to sexual identity and orientation. Religion, nationality, wealth. Wealth is a big one. I think age now disabilities, um and I don’t necessarily, you know, have the capacity to understand all of those aspects, and nobody really has the capacity to ask, Understand the aspects of marginalization for all the different groups that we may have. And we do categorize people on a number of different levels and have to recognize that these are off often overlapping and interdependent zsystems um, that that involved discrimination and disadvantage, and some people refer to this is intersectionality. But it is something that we’re all dealing with this country and the one that you raise. Maybe it’s the one that’s primarily on her, uh, our attention right now. And that’s kind of the white male dominated, uh, power and privileged class of individuals and how our institutions have developed over our history with that perspective on informed by that group on how difficult it is to change on recognize the problems that we have if we just continue to go down that path and try to make little incremental changes to the system to make it a little bit fair rather than to think about rethinking some of these and re imagining how how more equitable systems could take their place. But the white male power structure, though I that’s the that’s the root of all of it. It it seems, you know, the more I read and think that’s that’s the foundation of it. Of all the all the inequities, I myself apologize. We’ve got to take a break, but we’re coming right back to this gene. Stay right there. But I have to take care of our sponsors, too, Pursuing their newest free book, The Art of First Impressions. It’s all acquisition. To attract, acquire new donors, you have to make a smashing first impression. They re book has the six guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy. How to identify your unique value, plus creative tips. You’ll find it on the listener landing page at Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P for please. Now let’s go back, Tio, My conversation with Gene and D. I and governance. All right, So Jean, you know, and so I think that’s the route is the white male supremacy, Um, and you know, And so you and I have to have a safe, you know, safe space for conversation. And it so happens there thirteen thousand people who are going to listen to this. But, you know, you and I, we know each other. So we I for the first time in, like, eight and a half years, I’m feeling a little awkward, but, um, I think if I say that, then that helps me. Teo, we’ll give it voice and just recognize it and say that’s that’s how I’m feeling. But we have to, you know, we’re two people who have known each other for for those eight and a half years, we’ve had lots of conversations where? Thirteen thousand people? Well, years ago, it was only fifteen hundred. But now it’s thirteen thousand. Have listened, and we’ve always been fine. So you know, you’re in a safe space. I’m in a safe space way. Have we have good heads when we have good judgment and, you know, just we have to just, ah, acknowledge there’s a little There was a little attention. At least I was feeling it you know, and just have toe. Okay. You know, these are just the’s air manageable topics. Fair enough. That sounds okay. Absolutely. Tony. And I’m appreciate you having you know, this conversation. It’s obviously one again that’s super sensitive, and I’m sort of, um, the beneficiary of certain powers and privileges myself, so I can appreciate. While I’m of Asian American descent and I have dealt with certain inequities because of that, I can certainly appreciate the many powers and privileges of I’ve had because of my background, including being a male and including living in AA community, where Asian American males are not that uncommon. So it’s a difficult discussion tohave, and everybody’s gonna have a different perspective on this, but I think again, making sure that people do have this discussion at every table. So at the board table, at the dinner table with your family, I think these are important discussions and, um way only benefit by talking about this. Even if there are disagreements. And even if there are attentions and a certain level of uncomfortable feeling that I get generated by them on get’s, you know, we challenge ourselves. I mean, you know, you have your own business. You’ve you’ve broken out. You’ve you’ve challenged yourself in lots of ways. I have my own business. I have a show that, you know, half years ago didn’t exist, you know, So we’re open to challenge, and so we shouldn’t fear another challenge. We’re just taking on another challenge. I gets a sensitive topic, but that doesn’t mean it’s insurmountable by any by any stretch we’re both accustomed to challenge. So we’re challenging ourselves. I mean, you spent twenty minutes on Twitter, hominy, hominy, uh, you know, postings the seasons, challenge yourself and break outside. And those who don’t think differently think, think like everybody else. And where would we be if we all were of that sort? You know, I mean, you see that stuff on Twitter and Facebook all the time, And so now we’re, you know, I mean, you and I live it, Ah, lot, because we have our own businesses. But now we’re doing it in a a different way. A different arena, but still the same thing. It’s the same concept. It’s a it’s a challenge. And it’s ah, it’s overcome oppcoll I agree? Absolutely. Absolutely. If you don’t have the difficult discussions, then you’re probably not advancing a zoo, group or organization. Very well, right? And if you don’t challenge yourself, you’re not. You’re not advancing and growing as a person. That’s because that’s what I was getting to absolutely agree. So All right, so what if you’re on a board and you feel you’ve, you feel like, uh, the board does not reflect or the leadership of the organization. Let’s even bring in the CEO of senior leadership. But you’re a boardmember because we’re talking about defying governance. Um, and you don’t feel like the that that leadership, as I defined it, represents the the people that you’re serving doesn’t represent the communities that you’re serving. What do you think you should do? Hyre It’s a fantastic question, and I think that’s the one that everybody is asking right now, Tony. And partly because we keep getting these results, uh, that show that the nonprofit sector has really not been leading by example in terms of diversity on its board of directors or diversity in its leadership. I think the first thing we need to do is acknowledge that is that we’ve been doing pretty much a terrible job is a nonprofit sector in terms of getting diversity on our boards and diversity in an inclusive way, of course, so I wanted to raise. There was a survey by board source in two thousand seventeen called Leading with intent, and it found that ninety percent of CEOs and board chairs were white. Eighty four percent of board members were white, and twenty seven percent of non-profit boards were entirely wait. And these are bear improvements over a similar survey that they conducted more than twenty years ago. So, yeah, ah ah, highly disproportionate group and we were talking about power and privilege. Um, a really disproportionate number of Non-profit non-profit leaders in governance and CEO rolls are white. And when we talk about this in terms of larger organizations on and sort of the hyre paying CEO position, the gender differences come out as well, where a lot of white males again are dominating on those boards. And in those CEO position, Um, somewhat reflective of, you know, for-profit Fortune five hundred company CEOs and boards where there’s been actual movement, Teo increase att least on a gender basis. Some diversity on their boards. But Non-profits so far have been just doing the terrible drops, I think. Acknowledging that and saying whatever we’ve been doing so far, his not been very good. I think that’s the first place to start. Okay, So you could say, you know, our board is not unique. Our leadership. Sorry of the way. Our seven. Our leadership is not unique. You know, here’s the statistics. The trend is awful. The numbers compared to the twenty years ago, it’s either flat or just our bare improvement there or it’s a walk back. So we’re not unique, but we But we can be leaders on DH. It doesn’t make me comfortable, Teo to be on a to be a part of this organization, that it doesn’t reflect the people we’re serving. Um, first thing I suppose you are a boardmember. Er I don’t Should you? What would you What would you suggest in terms of bringing it up? Would you bring it up in a board meeting now? Probably not mean, you should. You want to have ah, a couple of back channel discussions first, right before you before you make this a, uh ah, ah, anew. What’s it called on agendas? You do boardmember is all the time A new Your business new business before you bring it up is there are lots of hard work that hard work for me to find. If you have a five minute discussion at the end of the board meeting about this topic, it’s not really gonna go. Yeah, you’re very far not introduce it as an issue and put it really on the back burner, if that’s how you’re going to raise it. So I agree some back channel discussions among some of the board leadership and bringing in the CEO to say, You know, this has been a problem in the sector. Let’s take a look at our own board and lets see, do we have this issue as well? And there’s a little bit of, you know, something that’s been called in the racial context. White fragility about being very defensive about about this and think, you know, Yeah, the sector is awful at diversity and equity on board. But you know what? Our boards really different. Even though you know, our composition might exactly make up our community. We’ve got a few people you know who are persons of color, or we’ve got a few people who were women or however you wantto look a diverse. But do they have to testify that you’re being very defensive? Very defenses? I think, having open discussions about, well, what would this organization’s board look like? Ideally, in an ideal world, what would this board be composed of? What different perspectives can we bring in? And why would we want diversity on our board, Our specific board? We know it’s a problem across the sector. We know that maybe on an organizational level, we haven’t always done the best job. But we feel like we have our hearts in the right place. Well, what would this ideally look like? And I think maybe that’s the starting point of discussion to say, Why do we want diversity? What tack of diversity do we want? And ideally, what would that bring out our organization? Why would that make us on it further our mission in a more effective and efficient way. Why would that make our organization be more sustainable over the long run? And maybe after that sort of sort of going for the positive first, maybe after that going? Well, what happens if we don’t do anything about it? Are we going to still be relevant? Are we still going to be around in ten or twenty years? Are we going to still be able to serve our populations as well? If we don’t do anything about these things. So I think those are the questions you ask. Maybe start with the positive and then go to the alternatives. What if we don’t do anything? I’m feeling like Tio. If the board is goingto have, uh, focus on this and have meetings around this and that a professional facilitator could be really valuable because, you know, because of the things that that I talked about and you you seem to feel too, you know, ten minutes ago, and that’s just two of us who know each other very well. You know, but I can imagine a board of eight or ten people, and the defensiveness starts coming up. I could see where a professional facilitator could be really valuable. Absolutely, Tony. And one who has experience dealing with DEA issues. Right, Because they they are particularly sensitive. Just a strategic management consultant who doesn’t deal with this and who might be a member of a powered and privileged class might not have the same perspectives and sensitivities to be ableto bring in the discussion than the understandings of the board members. Teo, be able to move this discussion forward in a way that will actually promote inclusiveness and equity in the organization. Just when would you just said d? I was just thinking this is a really It’s a good thing they don’t call it, uh, equity inclusion and diversity. That would be I’d improvised explosive device. And this this stuff can be really explosive. So if you’re not so I think I just if you’re not careful, you could you could you? If you’re not careful, you could die from the i e d of D I Yeah, that’s absolutely all sorts of possible acronyms. And I hear E. D. I is a frequent acronym on this issue as well. But, yeah, put the put the letters together in the wrong order, and those are the bad things that can happen. You could die from the from the explosiveness of deeds of I of d I. So All right, So what are some of the positives? And, you know, we were going to take inventory. The positives. Then we’re going to take inventory of the negatives to the fear the change. Some people gonna lose their board slot over years. This is obviously not gonna happen in six months. It’s not even happening. One board cycle. But if it’s going to if the organization will be committed to it, you know, there’s going to be costs and benefits. But so what? What? What? Can we identify some of the benefits of having a board that does represent Ah, leadership? Sorry, I keep saying board, but leadership that does reflect the community that we’re serving. What We know someone we know, some advantages. I mean, I because I could spitball a couple, but what do you What do you think? Well, I I think maybe the common sense advantage that we can all probably think about say, that makes sense is that when you got diverse perspectives and diverse backgrounds, it’s going to result in. Mohr informed better decision making because it’s not a bunch of people with the same experiences on the same backgrounds in the same kind of understandings of certain things. You’ve got more, more different thoughts, a different thought. Leadership in there and diverse leadership attracts broader community support. It also leads to greater equities because you’re now thinking about well how to our programs or how our services effect not only just sort of people in general, but segments of our communities. How are we doing with our African American communities or with our Latin next communities or with our Asian American communities with our LGBT communities? And you know those air things that we can all sort of bring in more diverse boards in an inclusive, diversity. Inclusive manner, of course, brings more different perspectives. Beings Mohr leadership that’s informed by different ideas and different backgrounds on DH that really helps out on, you know, also different networks. You’re opening up the opportunities for for for networking and who could be brought to the organization by having a more representative, diverse and inclusive board just absolutely latto napor networks and I think thunders now are starting to become very interested in this area’s well. So in terms of attracting the funders, if you rely, at least in part, on having grants coming from foundations, um, there’s trying to become more and more interested in this space. And part of the reason why is because there has been a lot of backlash against Thunder’s not taking into account DEA in the past, on their being called out and there have been different books. I’m not sure if you’ve been sort of talking with people about these areas, but on and had your argast has been, he wrote Winners Take all, which was on The New York Times top one hundred books list and that talks about sort of power and privilege and philanthropy and how, it seems, you know, serves to perpetuate inequities. Well, foundations are sensitive to that, and I know there are some foundations like the Ford Foundation, that are actually really moving, um, to address some of the inequities that have been caused by by foundations. There’s rob racial Stanford, who just wrote just e-giving who talks about tax policy and how wealth and philanthropic giving like that by maybe like somebody like Jeff Bezos who pledged two billion dollars to charity is really something that deserves not our gratitude but our scrutiny because of his ability to shape policy. You hung that money, influence things going forward and again in a way that a white male sees importance but not addressing it with a broader community. So I think the philanthropic sector is more interested in funding in these areas now, as they’ve been called out on it. Uh, and so if you’re a charity just dependent upon it, it’s gonna really be important out to your funders, many of them and increasingly, mohr that you’ve got a diverse board that has taken into account different populations that it may serve. Are we gonna take a break? Someone we did have on this show just just a few weeks of December. Edgar Villanueva, Uh, the author of the book de Colonizing Wealth and his thesis that use money as as healing For all the past inequities over centuries, Edgar is excellent. Also. Jean, When we come back, let’s let’s talk some about some of the downsides, the fears that we’re going to have to categorise and and list and deal with also among the leadership for this change. Andi, let’s talk some about token ization, too. Weinger CPAs anew Archive Webinar foryou. Accounting update. What has changed that Wagner knows intimately. If you can get intimate with accounting, you shouldn’t get into it with accountants. But but that’s hard. We’re talking about the topics that they know intimately, and you just need to know them a little bit so you don’t need to be intimate with them like the accounting update. New requirements for financial statements. You find this at regular cps dot com. Click Resource is then Webinars. Now time for Tony Steak, too. Take your plan. Giving one piece at a time. I was watching a tree get cut down in my father’s yard like Abraham like, uh, and I was thinking about planned giving. I did not think about honesty. I was thinking about No, wait, That was, Who was the tree? That was George Washington, not Abraham Lincoln, right? Cutting this tree down. That was George Washington. Um, but I wasn’t thinking about either of those Anyway, I was thinking about plans e-giving there’s a guy up in in the bucket and he throws a rope around a branch so that it doesn’t fall uncontrolled after he cuts it. And that’s just like you need to have a couple things in place. Simple things. Just simple rope, that’s all. Nothing elaborate but simple rope thrown over another branch. You need to have a couple things in place before you start your plan giving like, you want to know who your prospects are going to be. We’re gonna be promoting this, too. You wanna have some? Ah, simple plan for going ahead. And then you can go ahead and start your promotion. The cutting. And that would be, of course. You start with bequest. Just take it one piece at a time. Just the way I watched this guy cut this tree down One branch of the time it took ah, full eight hour day and including all the clean up. So you take it one step at a time. And, of course, I’ve got clips of ah, thiss tree surgery, all as part of my video at tony martignetti dot com. Now let’s go back, Teo. Gene on DH talk about D I. Diversity, equity and inclusion and governance. So, Jean, some of the some of the negatives that we’re going to have to deal with, um what what do you fear of change? I mean, I’ll throw a fear of change. Like I said earlier, some boardmember is going to lose their seats. I don’t know that hands are going to be going up and saying, OK, I’ll surrender my seat, even though I’ve got I’ve got two terms left because our by-laws called for three times. But I’ll give up my last two terms for there to be a person of color in my seat. I don’t think that’s gonna happen. So what are what are some of the negatives were going to deal with? Sure. So, you know, in addition to the one that you mentioned about, well, you know, does that mean I have to go was a boardmember because I’m a white male and be replaced by somebody else? That’s not necessarily the case, but that is certainly one of the fears that comes up more. General fear is maybe that Hey, we’ve got some great board members here, but they happen to be white. Does that mean we have to let them go? So that’s one of this year’s They’re stuck on a government structure that says, okay, maybe we were goingto have at nine boardmember Zohra ratio of four to ten, and you have ten board members and nine happened to be white. And you think they’re all great people? You don’t want to lose any of them, so the side as well, we can’t make our board more diverse without losing good people. And that’s a difficult discussion. Tohave One solution maybe increased the size of your board. You go. It’s not It’s not an either or, you know, good, bad. Kind of No, that’s a center in institutional structure. Way. Have to sacrifice some loose, um, good white people so we can get people of color on know just what you suggested. How about we just expand the size of the board? Yeah, but in some cases, it might be good for some people to step aside. And I say that with respect to age as well, because, well, we haven’t talked about it very much. Ah, Non-profit boards tend to be kind of older to Tony as you may know, uh, and young people, particularly millennials. Andi, even some Jen acts are just not getting onto boards. And they’re losing interest because nobody’s recruiting them. So people stepping aside to let in younger generations new thoughts, new ideas, new backgrounds and bring them onto the board, I think is just incredibly important as well. Yeah. You know something? I’m I’m thinking, um, you know, any of these solutions or methods? I really I don’t want to call a solution a method of process that we’re talking about. Jean, you know, may or may not work for aboard, but I guess what my goal for this show is just to encourage the conversations. You need to figure out what’s gonna work best for your organization. Um, you you know? So yeah, you need to You need to tailor these ideas of just But but think about it, you know, be introspective. And if there’s if there’s some If there’s angst, you know, talk about it and give it voice and think about a way a way forward of making the situation better. I could not agree any more with you, Tonia. Absolutely right. I did want to address some of the other challenges, a swell that you raised about having these discussions. Because while it’s great to say, you should have these difficult discussions, there are these barriers to them. And so I think it’s okay to acknowledge that there barriers, including this fear of losing good board members or maybe getting kicked off the board yourself. But, you know, in addition to that, you know, people are thinking about well, in our mission really isn’t about diversity on, and it isn’t about racial equity. Our mission is about something else. It’s to increase, huh? Education in the sciences or it’s tio promote the art or to do something something else doesn’t Apparently, att leased the surface level have, ah, racial lens on it. So people think, Well, it’s working, invest and to do this right, Tony, you talked about bringing it consultant. The board has got to be prepared to invest money and time. You’ve got to do it on the budgeting process and you’ve got to say, diversity, equity inclusion. This is one of our core values, and we are going to invest as if it is a core values, and that is another barrier it’s going to cost money, it’s going to take time. It’s going to take time out of your board meetings because this is a difficult discussion that you’re not goingto have in fifteen minutes. Uh, it’s going to take time, and it’s going to be probably something that goes on forever. So these aren’t short term solutions that solved a particular initiative. These are ongoing discussions that aboard needs tto have to mean make sure that it continues to promote and observe its core values. And I would say that board members, individually you talked about the board of the whole thing, that this is the rule to have these discussions Well, I’m going to argue that a boardmember individually has a fiduciary duty. If D. IE is a core value of the organization to bring it up, Teo, talk with first, you know, private conversations with individual more members. But make sure that that goes to the full board, because if acting in the best interests of the organization is your fiduciary duty, which it is, and G I is a core, value the organization while doing things that further your mission and are consistent with your core values. That is your legal duty. And while you might not get into any legal liability situation for not observing him, it’s still your legal duty to do it. So I would say it’s really imperative upon individual board members who have identified D. I as in core Valley of their organization to make sure that it gets stated that way. And that discussion goes to the board and that investments are made on decisions are made, which will cost something. So to make investment means you’ve got to take money and time out of something else and put it towards this. It’s now time to start doing that for a great many organizations, take money from something else, or find right, raise more money. Correct. There may be sources of money that, uh, that will support this kind of work. Um, I don’t know, but but it’s again it’s not an either or thank you, that’s that’s excellent the way you explained Gene the individual responsibility, because if yeah, because if we all just looked to the if we all just looked to the collective and the collective never raises it, I mean, the collective is just a the collective just a bunch of people. And so if the collective never acts, then that none of the people are. If none of the people are acting, then the collective will never act. That’s why I’m trying to say it sticks me in the circle. Curious way of getting to things. But so, you know, if if every individual’s waiting for every other one, it’s never gonna happen. Um, okay. Uh, all right. When we come back, I got taking a break. When we come back, let’s talk some about organization, Gene. Tell us can use more money. You need a new revenue source. You get a long stream of passive revenue When cos you refer process their credit card transactions through Tello’s. It’s that simple. You give fifty percent of each individual fee and those things add up. That’s the long stream. Month after month after month. Watch the video. Then send your potential companies to watch the video. You’ll find the video at Tony that m a slash Tony Tello’s Let’s do the live listener love. Um it’s ah goes out wherever you might be from Guten Dog which would be Germany to Ni hao, which would be China two Konnichi wa which would be Korea. Um konnichi wa is what konnichi wa is Japan. I’m sorry on genes on Kenichi while Japan, of course. Because Korea is Anya Haserot. That’s right. Yes. Uh, So the live love goes out and that’s for the listeners abroad. But the live love goes to the domestic listeners. Nonetheless, sometimes I do abroad first. Sometimes I do domestic first. So this time I’m doing their broad first But the domestic listeners throughout their fifty states because it’s not only the continental United States we’ll bring in Alaska and Hawaii also, of course, the live love goes out there. So wherever you are listening, live love out to you and the podcast pleasantries, too are vast podcast audience. I’m grateful that you are with us been subscribing the numbers keep rising pleasantries to our pod cast audience. Okay, Jeanne, Um so organization. What? What does that look like? When people of color, uh, or other, uh, other classes are brought in as tokens. What? What does that look like? What that looks like Tony is it’s awful. Well, let’s use the person of color a CZ example. You have, ah, vast majority of the the current board composition being white, and that board decides what we need. Toe add a person of color onto our board. Um, so they bring in one person of color, maybe an African American individual. They bring them on the board, and then they take the picture that we talked about at the beginning of this show. It makes for a better picture than it wass before. Um, but that individual boardmember is really not given any additional power or duties. They’re not asked for their different perspectives that they bring onto the board. There’s no plan to incorporate that person’s background in knowledge to influence what mate be done with the organization’s planning efforts or its future board governance structures. So that person is just brought in there for the good looking photo that shows a more diverse board than it wass on DH by excluding such person from from riel positions of influence and power. Yeah, that’s really just making them a token. And that’s what we’re talking. There’s the key. Yeah, they have. No, they have no power in the organization. There’s no plan for rewarding sharing the power. Um, yeah, the power center isn’t changing. And if it’s one person that that’s probably that to me, that would be a red flag has to be a pretty small board for one person, too, to make a difference and to be incorporated into power structures adequately, Um, and you know the kind of something you know, sometimes you’ll see the diversity committee, right? And so the so the people of color, the lgbtq, you folks, whatever three older folks they’re put on the diversity committee, and that’s it. She really just be called the Divers committee. We have a committee that’s diverse, That’s it. That’s what they do. That’s their structure. That’s their charge to be diverse. Okay, we have a diverse committee, you know, Um, you know, it’s it’s it’s insulting on its It’s also counterproductive because people know when they’re tokens when when they’re not given the levers of power or access to them. People know that, you know, they feel it, and it’s just going toe. It’s gonna create resentment and animosity. It’s It’s counterproductive to have ah, a diverse committee. I agree. Chun hee. So in there, lots of stories where persons of color who get invited onto boards find themselves being the only, UH, person of color on that board and being appointed to a diversity committee. Um, and that gets to be a routine. They join other boards with similar sort of bored compositions, and again, they’re asked to be part of a diversity committee. And, well, if that diversity committees actually given enough power and influence to effect change so that diversity, in an inclusive way is really strengthened in the organization and its governance. Well, that’s one thing. But if that diversity committee, year after year, is just for the photo op, uh, and just for the Grant proposal that says we have one, well, that’s really classic token ization. And and that’s something that is counterproductive in the incredibly you’d be better off not having that individual joined the board. That will be a terrible board experience for that person as well. Let’s talk about how this is a e-giving deviating from what I was thinking, but it is important. How do you share the levers of power? A. CZ. So if the leadership is, is all white what? What do they do? What do they need to do? Latto give real power, too. The their newly new people of color, etcetera. They’re newly diverse board members. What does that look like? Sharing the levers of power. What? You know, I need you to talk a little bit so I can think about it cause I just thought of it myself. How do you do that? How do you start to share power? Great question. And that would be kind of one of those generative questions that board should have. Ah, long discussion about once identified D. E A. Is something they want to prioritise and adopted the core values, and I think they’re a few ways to do it. The first way is to decide well, the first thing to do is recognize every boardmember actually has no interference. Individual power. Every boardmember individually has no power unless it’s delegated to them individually. While they have no power. Collectively, as the board, they’re the ultimate power of the board of the organization. So collectively they have power individually, they have no power. So bringing on one person, colored just to be an individual boardmember not delegating any authority to that individual is classic. Token is but you have officers. So you have a chairman of the board. You may have a vice chair, you may have a CEO. You may have a development director, some of these air staff positions in all volunteer organizations that may all be volunteer positions. And there may be mixes, obviously, but their officers who do have individual authority and that where you have to think about is, is our diversity in an inclusive manner being affected through our officer positions there. Maybe committee positions that have power as well. Where they’re delegated with the authority to do things on behalf of the board and executive committee would be, you know, a typical committee that’s often asked to sort of take over Mohr of the day to day oversight. Then the full board would be and is a person of color, or whatever marginalized group that you’re trying to increase. The first report is that person, or are those people representative on those committees that have important power? And then, beyond that, maybe the other way to think about it is influence. So while I said each individual boardmember has no power different board members have considerable influence. And if you have a board meeting that’s, you know two hours long if you’ve got a board of, like, fifteen people, there’s only so much that each person Khun say and allow everybody to participate right, And that’s often controlled by the chair of the board, sometimes by the executives who run the board meetings, which isn’t always a great way to do it. But somebody is facilitating and latto presiding over the board and the board meetings. And to do that in a way that recognizes that persons from marginalized groups the person that you asked to be on the board, to represent some of those ideas and perspectives and thoughts, well, that might be unfair to say, you know, you’re brought on to represent every person who’s you know in that group. Yeah, that’s on. So just yeah, just to bring those people just to get at least their individual perspectives coming from that background or characterization, that can be important. But if the board members just don’t acknowledge that, you know, and just give them five minutes to speak at a you know to our board meeting because everybody else needs there five minutes. That’s not going to do much to effect change, either, You know, So so. But promotion, um, get mentoring access to the leadership Onda leadership that that hears them. I’d also welcoming challenges to the leadership, you know, not mutiny. But there’s a lot between silence and mutiny. There’s a broad spectrum there, and so welcoming challenges to the authority and even even in public. If you know if something comes up in public and it seems wrong that the challenge to that shouldn’t be defensiveness, marginalization and rebuking, it should be acknowledgment. I’m trying to listen and learn. You know? What is that? What’s the What’s the What’s the source of the conflict that’s been pointed out? Mean those air? Those are things that that I was thinking of. Two as a cz ways of sharing power and e-giving e-giving voice. I got to take our last break. Gene Hoexter give. Can you use more money? Need a new revenue source? Here’s a second way mobile giving. You can learn about it with text to gives five part email mini course. Fiv e mails won the day and you will know no more about text e-giving mobile giving than you did six days earlier. I did it, and I learned it’s easy to get started. It’s cheaper. It’s easy for your donors. It’s cheap for you to get started. There’s just a couple of lessons that come out of this many course to get the email many course Text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine nine. And thankfully, we’ve got several more minutes, but probably not enough, uh, for D I and governance. Anything else you want to add? Jean, too. I threw something out that I took a break, because that was that was that unfair exercise of power? I’m sorry, E. I got it. I got to take care of the sponsors. I didn’t mean to do it that way. So anything you want, toe, respond to what I just said. I’m going to echo actually what you said because avoiding conflict going for consensus based decision making on boards, I think is really, um, enhances the white supremacy culture or a majority or power privileged supremacy culture. So I think embracing some sort of conflict is important. Having a long term focus and not just a short return focus is really important not to looking to just better perfect the status quo when you recognize that the status quo was largely designed by one group for their own benefit is also another important factor. Now I’ll just leave you with a few. Resource is so bored. Source has got some excellent subject matters, particularly those written by Veneta Walker, who used to be their vice president and now engaged in consulting. And I’m going to have a chance to talk with Brunetta about four diversity on a webinar coming up in March. So just plug that a little bit and say, look for her readings because she’s a really leader in this space and you can learn a lot. Okay? And now you’re going to be on this Webinar in March, which I’m sure you’re going to promote at the non-profit. Law blogged dot com, right? Absolutely. Okay, so people need to be subscribing to that. You’ve heard my admonition hundreds of times, subscribed to non-profit law blob dot com and you’ll you’ll find out info about Jean and on the Web in our with Veneta, we still have some time left. Jean What? What do you want to talk about? Well, I’m going to say a few more things than what one is that I was going to mention Edgar Villanueva’s Well, because his book, It’s remarkable de colonizing wealth, and I really appreciated your show with that girl. That was such an interesting show. He’s excellent. He’s excellent. Yeah, the next thing is, maybe once you figured out what you want to do in terms of Why are you bringing diversity on? And how is it going to help your organization pursue or an advance its mission in a better way. That’s the time to start to now, reach out to communities of color on DH. You’re gonna have to go through different ways because the traditional way of bringing in boards for most non-profits that have self perpetuating board, we just ask our friends or we asked our contacts and very much, you know, and I think there’s an evolutionary biology principle of affiliating with, you know, people who are of our similar characteristics, all to do with the selfish gene and and all of that and so that that’s our comfort zone. That’s what we may be predisposed to because it had sametz solutionary advantage in the past just sort of congregate with one another that we’re very much alike. But we’ve got a break out of that. And if you want diversity, you got to reach out and go beyond that. Acknowledge that you may have those those predispositions, but you’ve got to reach out. Consider Boardmember Ching Services, identity based professional affinity groups, colleges, community leaders reach out and be uncomfortable. As you said, Tony, be uncomfortable, get to know new people and get your organization to know new people and new groups and figure out how to do it right. If you’re really open and honest about it, these people are going to want to help us. Well, yeah. Go into the communities that you are under represented by that you’re under representing, uh, set up some meetings. Um, you know, maybe it’s Maybe it’s among your benefit community, The people you’re helping talk to them or uh, but as you said, Gene, you know, goingto community’s going to networks that you haven’t been in. People take a meeting, they’ll take a meeting. And if your genuine and sincere they’re going to hear that, they’re going to hear that and they’re going, They’re going to want to help you. All right, Gene hears. I don’t know if we covered this adequately again. My goal was just to get people consciousness raised and get them thinking about and talking about these things. But I want I want each of us to listen back to this, and you and I’ll decide together whether we should say some more on this or we feel like we’ve we’ve done enough. Not that now that we’ve covered the whole topic. But have we, uh, Have we met the goal? Okay, but then you know what? I set the goal. So I’m open to a different goal to see, see that white powers creeping in and set the goal. And then I’m saying that we’re going to judge it by the goal that I said, So it’s bad. So you and I will collaborate together, and we’ll decide if we’re going together. If we’re going to do this topic some more sound good. I love to do with you and love to actually talk about how you can implement some of these ideas in by-laws and governing documents from illegal angle. There’s your record to it. Okay, It’s up to you if it’s upto us together, if we want to do some more. All right. So he’s Jean Takagi non-profit law block dot com. You got to subscribe to that and follow him. He’s at G tak Gene. Thank you so much for real. Genuine and could have been even tougher. But but it wasn’t as tough as it could have been. So I thank you for that conversation. Thanks so much. Really Appreciate it. Tony. Have a great day. Thanks, Gene, next week. I don’t know if you missed any part of today’s show. I beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash Pursuing Capital P by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card payment processing your passive revenue stream, Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers Claire Meyerhoff. Family Blitzes. 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