Tag Archives: Gene Takagi

Nonprofit Radio for January 9, 2023: Gene & Amy’s 2023 Outlook

 

Gene Takagi & Amy Sample WardGene & Amy’s 2023 Outlook

Our esteemed contributors, Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward, reveal what they’re thinking about for the New Year. We’re talking about Twitter, donor advised funds, fiscal sponsorship, and illegal activities. Gene comes to us from NEO Law Group, and Amy is CEO of NTEN.

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[00:02:06.02] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast, Happy New Year. I hope you enjoyed your time off. I hope you’re looking forward to our New year and I have more on that in in Tony’s take two. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with sal pendulum fractious if I had to hear that you missed this week’s show, Gene and Amy’s 2023 Outlook, our esteemed contributors, Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward reveal what they’re thinking about for the new year. We’re talking about twitter donor advised funds fiscal sponsorship and illegal activities. Jean comes to us from neo law group and AMY is ceo of N 10 on Tony’s take to take in this new year. What a genuine pleasure to have both Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward with me us together. Substantively, it’s not just 1/50 anniversary show. No, this is not the 650th show. This is not july of 2023 Gene and Amy are with us to talk substance together and cross talk as well, you know them, but they are esteemed contributors and they are do their proper introductions, jean is our legal contributor and managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in san Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and he’s at G. Tac. Welcome to the New Year’s show, Gene,

[00:02:13.49] spk_1:
thank you Tony great to be here and great to be here with AMY especially,

[00:02:34.00] spk_0:
absolutely yes, a genuine pleasure with AmY sample Ward, who is Ceo of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor, their most recent co authored book is the tech that comes next about equity and inclusiveness in technology development. They’re at AMy sample Ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward, Amy, Happy New Year! Welcome to the New Year’s show.

[00:02:42.26] spk_2:
Thanks. It feels like maybe we’ll revisit the intro if you’re saying our twitter handles and then we’re about to talk about what’s happening over at twitter. But you know, that’s all part of what’s to come and

[00:02:54.58] spk_0:
absolutely could end up being uh, mastodon.

[00:02:58.61] spk_2:
We’ll

[00:03:08.98] spk_0:
see about that. Absolutely. All right. We, um, we are going to start with Gene, um, to talk about Gene, you’re concerned about some, some legislative potential changes around donor advised funds.

[00:04:09.26] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, it’s the donor advised fund area is probably one that most of your listeners are kind of familiar with because they’re the fastest growing area of charitable giving over a trillion dollars now held by donor advised funds. And that is huge, growing much faster than private foundations. And, you know, they make up some of the biggest charity charities in the country, I think, Um, possibly half of the top 10 maybe, um, maybe don’t advise from sponsoring organizations and several of those associated with financial institutions. Um, so like a Fidelity or vanguard flop Goldman Sachs morgan Stanley. Um So, you know, there’s been some heat about, well are these really charities, are they charitable giving? And the answer is yes, they are charities, even though they are associated with financial institutions. But that heat has led up to people going, well, what is the money doing? What is that $1 trillion dollars doing in these donor advised funds? Are the and

[00:04:19.50] spk_0:
this has been percolating for years

[00:04:21.88] spk_1:
and this

[00:04:28.85] spk_0:
began on the Senate, the Senate Finance Committee. Uh It was one of the Senate committees. Uh this has been coming up for years around the money parked in donor advised funds and not getting to 501 C3 charities.

[00:04:40.03] spk_1:
Yeah, I think starting with Senator Grassley at the Senate Finance Committee chuck

[00:04:44.91] spk_0:
Grassley. Right? Yes. So

[00:04:52.91] spk_1:
it’s been people have been talking about it but don’t advise funds continue to go up on this exponential growth or where they just keep getting used more and more often. Oftentimes by, you know, some of the very, very ultra wealthy individuals and there’s some heat about that too, about why do we have so many ultra wealthy individuals who can control, you know what charities are doing, who can control our politics,

[00:05:11.74] spk_0:
but

[00:05:34.10] spk_1:
that’s all part of the same story. But because of that, you know, there’s been some pushback and some legislation suggested and now sponsored and introduced, well I should say introduced into Congress, but it’s not actually been a bit on a bill that has a formal sponsor that’s before anybody other than a committee right now looking at it. And that’s called the accelerating um, charitable efforts act or the Ace Act. And that’s up, uh, in front of some congressional members and a committee right now. And that has all these reforms to donor advised funds to

[00:05:51.98] spk_0:
help

[00:05:53.21] spk_1:
sort of mitigate some of those problems of the warehousing of wealth, um, and, and money not getting out to charities as quickly as some people would like. But there are some, you know, there are pros and cons to what all that involves, but it’s good for people to sort of be aware of it.

[00:06:09.19] spk_0:
Okay. Be paying attention to this. Um, now, when at least when I was in 6th and 7th grade, we used to learn that an act becomes a bill and a bill becomes law after it’s signed. But so thank you for making the distinction. Uh, all right. So, so this doesn’t have any sponsors yet there, it’s proposed like it’s, is it in a committee?

[00:07:51.29] spk_1:
It’s it’s in a committee right now. The chances are while I’m not a great prognosticator of what happens on Capitol Hill and I’m not, I’m not based in Washington. I will say what I’m hearing from people who are, is that it probably doesn’t have a good chance of passing right now. So it’s unlikely to see changes now, but this is a growing issue as you mentioned, tony that’s been percolating for, for years and just getting more and more attention. So provisions of the act, which is probably the overall is pretty complicated and we won’t go into the technicalities here that would bore your listeners, but it’s complicated. And for part of that reason there’s not sort of universal, like the nonprofit sector, all wants this to be passed? No, there’s like people on both sides of this issue. And because of that, I think, you know, um, prognosticators who are more informed to suggest that this probably won’t pass as is, are probably right, but there are aspects of it that could find their way in other bills. Um, so that’s sometimes how laws are passed. They don’t advise when laws passed through the pension protection act, not necessarily think those are related, but they can slip their way in. So just sort of pay attention to all of these, you know, movements around wealth and power and what that means to our, um, our charitable sector and how donor advised funds are being used. Something just to, to look at. And there are several organizations who are advocating on either side of this.

[00:08:38.91] spk_0:
Okay, cool, alright. We’ll pay attention to donor advised funds, uh, in terms of wealth and, uh, you know, 88 individuals, uh, controlling, or certainly heavily influencing the charitable priorities. That that’s for, uh, we’ll have to do that on another show. Um, fiscal sponsorship is uh is something else you want us to look out for? Just just define it you know in in its basics so that everybody has the common understanding that we’re starting with.

[00:09:32.42] spk_1:
So the issue with fiscal sponsorship while it is also growing very very quickly. Um And the nonprofit sector might be aware of it but sort of the outside world might not really know what that means. And generally what it means is that there are people who have a charitable project but don’t have a charity entity with 501 C. Three status to run it. They look for another group to either how’s it um or to give grants to their group which might be considered a taxable for profit Um If they don’t have five oh one C. Three status for some period of time and that’s how fiscal sponsorship can arise it can arise in different forms but because it’s not defined by law it’s done wrong all the time. So while it’s growing.

[00:09:57.32] spk_0:
What about new charities that don’t yet have their five oh one C. Three. Maybe they’ve applied so they’ve submitted their 10 23 to the I. R. S. But the process may take a long time can they also sometimes benefiting from fiscal sponsors. So they’ll they’ll get an established five oh one C. Three to make grants to them until they get their own 501 C. Three determination. Is that is that okay?

[00:10:53.65] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a perfect use of a fiscal sponsor and fiscal sponsors can act as incubators, even if they’re not applying for five oh one C three status right away, even if it’s something they’d like to test out and say, is this a viable charitable idea? Um, So yes, fiscal sponsorship can absolutely run that way, but if it’s not structured properly, even if that is the well intended sort of purposes of everybody involved, if it’s not structured properly, you can get into trouble both as an organization, you can end up having a donor who gets denied a deduction. Um, you can get a foundation into trouble who finds it. So structuring these things properly is really important. So as this field advances and evolves and it’s been around in informal ways for, you know, many, many decades, um, as this field advances, we want, we would like to see sort of more sort of consistency in operating it in a lawful manner that doesn’t endanger anybody and really it helps everybody accomplish what they want to do charitably.

[00:11:58.73] spk_0:
What about the idea, I mean, if you are incubating an organization, let’s say it’s it’s a few people, it doesn’t really matter, but I’m just trying to take it out of the realm of just one person, I suppose you’re incubating uh an idea and you, the Community Foundation because they’ll often act as communities as fiscal sponsors. Community foundations. You think it’s a, it’s a bonafide non profit idea, but and you make grants to it, but it turns out not to be so they don’t get their five oh one C three determination positive. What what what happens then is is the is the Community Foundation liable at all? And what happens to the deductions that were granted to the to this nascent now, not now, not Uh not a 501 C3 entity.

[00:12:51.99] spk_1:
Yeah. So I don’t want to dive too deep into the weeds. But yes, if the Community Foundation is housing and incubating the project, it’s not the same project that is housed in this new entity that is applying for five oh one C three status, that’s going to be transferred over into the new entity once it gets its five oh one C three status. So the Community Foundation is running an illegal activity, which is maybe another two We can talk about, well then the community foundation would of course get into trouble. But if it’s a small part of what the community foundation does, which it probably would be right, it would be maybe like 1% or maybe even less than 1% of the foundation’s overall activities, that’s not gonna usually result in anything terrible unless they were doing very terrible things. Which is unlikely. Um But you know, it would be different. An incubator definitely has less risks and they’ve got all their insurance and you know, legal support and accounting support to make sure that it’s not running afoul while it’s housed in the Community Foundation,

[00:13:07.79] spk_0:
if

[00:13:44.00] spk_2:
I can say something, Gene, I think as I’m listening to this conversation and from Anton has been a fiscal sponsor for many different groups, um you know, you also don’t have to be pursuing C three status, it might the whole purpose of what you’re doing could be done, you know, like we’ve been a fiscal sponsor for a group that was going to hold an event once the event was over, they were all done, they weren’t there was nothing to pursue a C three registration for, you know, So just naming that there’s a few nuances in that in the in the timeline to that, it may not be that there’s ever AC three application and something shady happened, but also the thing is over, you know, there’s a lot of moving

[00:14:00.81] spk_0:
pieces we have and what did you look for uh if you do in deciding to sponsor?

[00:15:21.47] spk_2:
Well, folks approach us, we haven’t, you know, gone out saying we would love to be a fiscal sponsor, it’s because it’s not, you know, intent isn’t set up, there are organizations of course, so that’s like their mission is to fiscally sponsored organizations, um but when we have been approached and folks have asked if we can essentially like extend our organizational privilege to enable their work, um the things that we look for are if there’s any sort of document or organizing agreement for the people involved on the other side again because they might not be, they might not be trying to be an organization but we want there to be accountability that that we can come back to um that they understand how much money they’re likely to bring in and how they’re going to spend it and that and tens books aren’t going to end up with some $10,000. We can’t do something you know um That there’s really a plan for what’s coming in and what’s going out and that they understand the options that exist for either becoming on payroll with us not being on paper roll being a short term contractor because N 10 already has staff and eight different states. But what does that look like if we were bringing someone on for a longer term and they needed to be on payroll in a state we’re not in. So we just have those conversations with them. But we have a standard agreement for fiscal sponsorship that we send to folks when we’re having those relationships and you know, separate bank accounts separate P. And L. Like all of

[00:15:42.21] spk_0:
that.

[00:16:12.33] spk_1:
Let me add just one more thing that some sometimes it’s all about creating um what when some people would call a commons. So these projects never wanted to leave but they find the efficiency of centralizing kind of administrative and back office resources and fiscal sponsor takes care of your legal filings and your tax filings, your insurance. Um and multiple projects just want to stay there forever. Um, So that that’s a use of the fiscal sponsor, a perfectly acceptable use of the fiscal sponsor as well. As long as it’s structured properly, structuring properly would be maybe my main point in this is that oftentimes people think, oh, I’ve seen somebody else do it, let’s do it the same way that may not work that they may be using the wrong example. So the national network of fiscal sponsor. Um, and then they’ve got a good sort of model of how this can be done properly.

[00:16:42.00] spk_0:
They have a book too, don’t they? Gene

[00:16:44.17] spk_1:
the book is actually from Greg Colvin and Stephanie Pettitt called fiscal sponsorship. Six ways to do it. Right. And it’s, I believe the only book out there, um, and it’s really good and not terribly expensive. So if you’re a fiscal sponsor and you’re not quite sure about what you’re doing by that

[00:17:06.18] spk_0:
Book. Okay, fiscal sponsorship six ways to do it. Right. Very aptly named book like it. Okay. Um, yeah. And there are also implications for the donors, right? If this is if it’s not created and implemented correctly. Gene the can the donors get like their charitable deduction clawed back or something like that.

[00:17:22.18] spk_1:
Yeah, they could get it denied by the I. R. S. Because if the donor directs their donation to an entity that’s not a charity. So if they’re telling the fiscal sponsor you must give this money to this project that’s a separate

[00:17:36.40] spk_0:
entity, well

[00:17:38.20] spk_1:
with a different bank account, the donor doesn’t get a deduction. Fiscal sponsor may have been aiding and abetting tax fraud. So problems there. So they’ve got to be careful

[00:17:56.72] spk_0:
okay for your donors too. All right. And on the on the illegal activity side. What what what what’s your what are your concerns there?

[00:18:00.97] spk_1:
So um as a lawyer, of course any illegal activities are concerned. But well

[00:18:06.94] spk_0:
there’s illegal and there’s there’s illegal

[00:18:15.82] spk_1:
actually that’s a really good point. So one of the things that the I. R. S. Looks at is like are you a 51 C. Three organization if you’re conducting illegal activities And they use the question that you asked basically tony There’s illegal and there’s illegal. So if you are engaging in you know civil disobedience to a small extent to advocate, you’re perfectly appropriate charitable purpose and mission. You’re probably not gonna expose your Five oh one C. Three status to to being revoked for that reason. If you’re committing a little bit of bank robbery. Well

[00:18:45.27] spk_0:
that’s

[00:18:45.62] spk_1:
probably gonna get you out of the 501 C. Three status. Right,

[00:18:49.64] spk_0:
Do it right. I mean why why do anything financially fraudulent for like $1,500.

[00:18:55.49] spk_2:
Right? There’s not a little bit of bank robbery like I want the whole safe or not. You know

[00:19:07.22] spk_0:
I mean if I’m gonna if I’m gonna compromise our reputation and risk myself being in prison. I mean, I’m doing this for at least a million and a half or something. You know, I mean, let’s make some decent money out of it, for Pete’s sake. I’m not risking everything for 50,000

[00:19:14.25] spk_2:
dollars. I want the gold bars while I want everything. You know,

[00:19:18.41] spk_0:
right, here’s

[00:19:19.60] spk_1:
how about this?

[00:19:22.79] spk_0:
Let’s go all in. I mean,

[00:19:31.21] spk_1:
The lawyer will say we are all in terms of how much money we’re gonna steal, but 99% of our staff time is spent on real stuff.

[00:19:33.03] spk_0:
It’s only one

[00:19:33.82] spk_1:
of our time I had spent on. It

[00:19:55.44] spk_0:
was, it was a tiny percentage of my time. I mean, it was just a few phone calls, a couple of texts. I mean, some some signal messages. I mean, you know, it was like a half an hour and you know, and then we executed. So it’s such a small percentage of my time. Really, why are we even bothering with this? All

[00:21:07.47] spk_1:
right. Exactly. So that’s the, there’s illegal and there’s illegal, exactly. As you framed it. Um, but I think now, why, why the illegality doctrine, as lawyers like to call it, is trending a little bit, is because we have some things that are considered illegal. That’s something that some states or jurisdictions are saying, well, no, that’s not illegal. And just sort of an example is cannabis, cannabis could be legal in some states, it could be legal for medical purposes in some states? It’s illegal for recreational purposes in other states, it’s illegal and federally it’s illegal, right? So that creates just all these weird dynamics, Can we have a five oh one C three organization where we’re cannabis dispensary for medical purposes, we’re doing it for charitable purposes. Can we do that? And the answer there is kind of know right now, if it breaks federal law, if that is the purpose of the organization and so now we’re not talking about activities now, but if that’s the purpose of the organization is to break federal law, then you can’t get five oh one C. Three status and you can’t if you have five oh one C. Three status and you change your mission, you can’t keep it. So something to look at in terms of cannabis organizations,

[00:21:12.39] spk_0:
even if it’s legal, even if it’s legal in your state,

[00:21:15.23] spk_1:
Right? Because 501 C3 status is a federal tax exempt status. So

[00:21:21.42] spk_0:
that could change

[00:21:53.07] spk_2:
and that’s for the mission of the organization. But what about or a national organization based in D. C. Because they’re a big HQ, they have their annual event in Oregon and the gala where in Oregon, cannabis is is completely legalized for recreation etcetera. And, you know, the silent auction table has like a cannabis care package is they’re they’re registered in D. C. The event is in Oregon. What’s what are the layers there?

[00:23:57.52] spk_1:
So the activities may be judged by what particular state they’re in. Although the sale of cannabis would always be sort of FDA sort of under FDA rules as well. Right? So you could always get charged with a federal crime on that, which is always the tough part. But just from The federal tax exemption standpoint, it’s kind of again fits activities if it’s doing it as an activity, that’s one thing where is it illegal? You know, little bit illegal maybe, and probably not going to really enforce or try to take away 51C3 status because of one event in Oregon where it’s legal under state law. But if that’s your purpose is to to say, hey, we don’t care what the federal law is. This is what our purposes which is contrary to federal law that can get you in trouble. So that’s the cannabis thing. But the study of cannabis or the study of psychedelics, certain psychedelics that might become approved federally and tony as you were saying cannabis could change as well. Um the study of it or the policy around it, that might be a perfect vibe. One C three purpose, either in the scientific realm or the charitable or educational realm, but a little bit of gray area in all of this. But I did wanna introduce one more area of illegality. Um and that is regarding abortion because that is another really hot topic since the jobs decision by the Supreme Court, right? So that allows basically the states to decide whether abortion is legal or not. And some states are really um strict about what they think would be illegal around abortion. So funding people to get an abortion, which what a charity might do, they might not perform the abortion, but they might provide funding and sometimes it’s just funding to their own employees to be able to access abortion in a state that allows it Um that can be illegal under state law as well. So now how does the fight, you know, that affect the 501 status

[00:24:09.39] spk_0:
even just funding an employee making an employee benefit? I

[00:24:39.22] spk_1:
think a law firm in texas, this varies amongst different states. tony so texas is one that’s been um pretty tough and in my opinion just terrible about um the laws that they’ve used and some of these laws go back decades. They’re they’re old laws that they were ruled unconstitutional before, but now after the Dobbs decision there sprung back into life. Um and so yeah, even funding employees to be able to access abortion clinics in other states could be illegal under those states. And

[00:25:50.42] spk_2:
yeah, after jobs, you know, there was like this wave of companies, especially for profit companies, but I’m sure nonprofits did it too, you know, saying like trying to I think in the spirit of of making clear their values, but clearly not thinking about the practicalities, You know, making these announcements, we will always fund our staff having access to this health care. You know, even if you have to travel or whatever. But like to to jean’s point the that isn’t very straightforward. It could if it’s known explicitly that that’s what you’re funding. It could be illegal if you’re an organization in texas, but also it requires disclosure that’s already making vulnerable a vulnerable staff person write a reimbursement which a number of folks we’ve seen say policies for reimbursement of travel. Well now there’s like a paper trail of where you went and and how much it cost and you know, like instead thinking about policies that say there may be harder things happening. We’re increasing your health benefit by this, you know, percentage of dollars just in, you know, like we have to think about the actual users here and not just the value statement where we think we’re making as an organization, you know,

[00:27:23.63] spk_0:
interesting point too about the paper trail because uh, texas again is one state where people who aid in a bet abortion can be can be sued, I think right? Or it could be right, It could be sued. So, so if there’s that paper trail that Amy’s talking about that mentions where the person went and maybe what relative may have helped them or you know that those those documents that that evidence could all be used when if if somebody nefarious inside the organization wants to wants to get some people in trouble. You know that that evidence could all be used against them. Yeah. All right. Well yeah I know well intentioned but maybe not so well thought out. But it’s it’s hard when when something so so disastrous happens. You know people want to rush to the aid like you know just like individuals who give to tsunami victims and hurricanes. You know like employers and C. E. O. S. Want to rush to the aid of their employees when they feel that there’s a uh something grievous happening to them potentially. It’s hard

[00:29:12.60] spk_1:
and I want to say we haven’t heard the last on this. These laws are going to be changed and challenged for years but right now we’re not in a very good place but wrapping it back into a five oh one C. Three package um Can the I. R. S. Take away your tax exemption because you do some of these things and then we get back to your, well is it an activity that’s illegal or is it really illegal? And um my feeling is that the I. R. S. Is not going to judge on the violation of state law unless the state has actually made that determination by a court ruling. So you can’t you might be able to pursue somebody and say well you know they violated the state law but if there’s no court ruling that says that the I. R. S. Is not an arbitrary of whether somebody has broken state law or not. So they will not take away five oh one C. Three status for just a complaint that somebody is violating these rules even though actually that might be the case. Um And nobody is not you know admitting that that’s not true. But the I. R. S. Is probably gonna want to lay low on the whole abortion topic is my feeling about it. But the illegality doctrine and there’s a similar doctrine called the public policy doctrine which was first introduced for racially discrimination which was federally allowed right And bob jones University used that as you know admission criteria or other sort of policy criteria. The I. R. S. Said no we’re going to take away your tax exemption for that even though it wasn’t inconsistent with law but it broke federal public policy. So there’s a related doctrine illegality that’s a sort of violation of public policy. But these are all things that charities just start to need to know and think about because one day it may pop up right in their neighborhood and they’ll be thinking about maybe we should have advocated a little bit harder in advance of that and try to make a difference,

[00:32:10.21] spk_0:
interesting. Um Contrast between the two examples we’re talking about cannabis having been illegal all along and now slowly becoming legal and abortion. Having been legal for the past 50 years now slowly becoming illegal. All right jean. Thank you very much. Love it. It’s time for Tony’s take to taking your new year. Welcome to your new year. I am always optimistic at the beginning of a new year. I cannot help it. It doesn’t matter if we’re in a pandemic or an economic recession in 2009. I’m always optimistic at the beginning of a new year. It’s in my d. n. a. So it’s a year of opportunity. If 2023 was terrific for you and I’m talking personally and professionally, if it was a bountiful year, it was a successful year for you. However, you define that. Congratulations. I’m very happy for you. I’m glad that your 2022 was what you wanted it to be outstanding. If you’re 2022 wasn’t if it was something less than you would have liked again, personally and professionally, Don’t let that hold you back for the new year. Your past doesn’t define your future. Your 2022 doesn’t constrain what you can do in 2023, literally each day, week month, you’ve got the whole year of opportunities, new chances to excel. So don’t let the past hold you back. If your last year wasn’t up to what you would like it to have been. You’ve got a whole new year of opportunities. Welcome to your 2023. Take it in embrace it. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for gene and Amy’s 2023 outlook with Gene and Amy Amy twitter. What the hell?

[00:32:12.79] spk_2:
What

[00:32:32.70] spk_0:
the hell? Yeah. Well immoral, immoral and unethical. To begin with the new ceo Elon musk. But uh, what the hell do we do with our, with our twitter accounts and we all three of us here have won. Nearly every nonprofit let’s assume has won. What we, we sort of have a sense of the landscape. What what, what’s your advice?

[00:33:24.47] spk_2:
I think to, to sum up my feelings. I would say like down with twitter and long live the internet. But what that means to me is a lot longer. You know, I think The decision about whether your organization should use Twitter or not is the same today as it has been every day since 2007 or whatever when I launched right? Like there’s always been, I think the need to consider if a tool you’re using that is not yours, you don’t get to own it. It is always permanently gonna be someone else’s tool, right? You’re just a visitor there. If it’s values match your expectations. If the community is there like all those same questions that we’ve talked about for years

[00:33:28.67] spk_0:
are still the same

[00:35:56.59] spk_2:
questions, you know, But I think what happens is organizations hopefully do ask those questions when they join something and then it’s like a closed discussion. And what I would love to see is that organizations re ask those questions every day on these platforms, right? Um, I would love to say the conversation isn’t about Elon musk because I would like to never have a conversation about. However, he’s really making the conversation about him by taking up a lot of the space and making the decisions right? Um, even today suspending the account that was like a bot that just posted when his jet went places and now that’s been suspended. You know, it’s like, okay, there’s just so much going on there. The issue to me isn’t, what has Elon tweeted or what has he done and more? Is it a platform that has the capacity to be safe for your users in your organization? Well not if every single member of those safety teams has been fired. Right. Um, is it a platform that’s going to be reliable because maybe you’re using it to communicate in real time situations, updates, et cetera? Maybe not When the again teams that support the reliability and uptime of the tool have been fired. So if it is meeting your needs, if your community is still really active there, if it feels like it’s a good fit, I’m not gonna say empirically, there’s only one answer to using any tool. Is it a tool that intent is using anymore? No, it doesn’t meet either the reliability or the values piece that we expect. We’ve seen tons of community members. Um, board members organizations, you know, post their last tweet and some of them, it’s like a very sad goodbye. And for others, it’s find me on linkedin, here’s, here’s my profile, right? Um, and for others, the last tweet didn’t even know that it was the last tweet. It just was the last tweet and then there weren’t, weren’t anymore, You know, it wasn’t a sign off, it just kind of ended. Um, but I’ll say all that and pause and then and and hear your thoughts.

[00:36:38.40] spk_0:
So what, you know, the concerns about safety reliability, these teams having been fired. Um, what about just taking a wait and see what might replace them? I mean, it’s still, we still are now january while we’re like two months into his 2.5 months or so into his ownership. Um, Should we, should we wait? Well, and I should say we’re recording in mid december. So it may not even, it may emerge by the time this comes out in early january. Um, should we, should we wait and see what

[00:37:59.71] spk_2:
was, I think something to think about is that there is no clear timeline for what wait and see means there, there has not been a, we’ve fired all of these teams that provide the reliability of the tool and the safety of the tool or at least the illusion of safety of the tool. Um, and we’ll be hiring for those teams on x date, that’s not been the process, right? So, um, that’s not to say posting your last tweet includes deactivating your account and leaving and everything right. It could just be Maybe you stop using it. Um it could be like in 10 has done, we don’t put money into the tool so we don’t buy ads, we don’t promote things right? So we’re not investing in what it is and the accounts open, we still have a notification set so that if a community member chooses to like tweet at us and say hey how come I can’t find this about the conference, we still see it and could provide that customer service, right? Um but it’s not a place that we are spending our time spending our dollars spending our energy even if you could still find the antenna count right? Um And I think that’s a place that for us feels like we haven’t walked away from the community or whatever parts of the community are still on the platform but we have made clear our stance is that this is not a place that feels worthy of that investment right?

[00:38:20.11] spk_0:
What have you done personally with at Amy R. S. Ward?

[00:40:22.50] spk_2:
I already used twitter so inconsistently like there’s one day where I just see five things and I’m like like in everybody’s tweets and replying to people and then I like accidentally go five weeks without tweeting just because I you know I wasn’t I wasn’t logged in or I wasn’t looking at things. Um I don’t know that I have tweeted recently, I don’t have, I don’t have even in my tab purgatory of my two screens, I do not have twitter open anywhere um I think the place, it’s really interesting. The place that twitter started out for me is kind of where it has returned to of very hyperlocal like there’s so many Portland’s folks that I don’t otherwise see because I never leave my house or you know they don’t work in nonprofit text so I wouldn’t otherwise connect with them but there I could still see them on twitter, I think that’s a place where it started out and I still want to know what the replacement is. Of course I’ve had lots of calm conversations with folks who are like well where should we go and we can talk about that but I also would encourage organizations to remember that you probably are already in more places than just twitter. You know, you probably do already have a linkedin page or if not pretty easy because your employees probably have linkedin profiles and you know, set up some space there um and most importantly, out of all of this again, you and I have talked about this but I really want to make clear in the midst of this kind of twitter, what is social media anymore conversation that you never owned any of that data, you never owned those pages, you never own those profiles, you never got to control them, you do control your website, you do control your email list, make sure that you are building up that list. That you are communicating with people directly in channels that you can directly um, message to because that’s no matter what happens, twitter returns and is a place of Utopia, you still won’t own it, right. And you will own your list and you will own your website and making sure that you’re, you’re really thinking about spending your time and money and staff time in those places. That’s

[00:40:52.33] spk_0:
really valuable. Basic but valuable reminder to cherish and build on what, what you do own your your site, your list. Yeah,

[00:41:01.38] spk_1:
I think there’s, you know, some difficult equity considerations in in twitter’s value um as well. So beyond what the owner who is also the only board member, uh,

[00:41:09.93] spk_2:
that’s the best practice, Right?

[00:42:24.32] spk_1:
Uh, so beyond beyond him, uh, there’s the consideration of, well, where are the folks you are serving? Where are they at? Is there a virtual town square where they’re at? Because many, maybe on twitter and they may still be there and for you to give them messaging, that might still be important. So I’m not, I’m still on twitter and conflicted about it, but I don’t want to be judgmental about charities that decide to stay on twitter because that may be still a really important way for them to reach out to their audiences. Um and for the audiences, I don’t want to be judgmental of them either because there are a lot of people who are not privileged to be able to access a lot of other technology and other platforms. They might, you know, find twitter super easy and you know that’s what they have and I’m not yet willing to say we’re just going to leave twitter to become this, you know, white heterosexual male dominated platform and Ellen and his bros can do whatever they want with that without any pushback from other perspectives there,

[00:44:15.41] spk_2:
I hope Tony Let’s make a 2023 resolution that gene and I get to do more shows together um because it brings up such a good just hearing you share that Gina and I agree with everything. Um as always let the record reflect, I always agree with Jean and I am always doing legal activity. Um is, is the version of this from a few years ago about facebook, right. And there’s some really unique and important differences between the twitter options available just like because of how the platform works versus facebook, you know, twitter is public by default. You don’t have to have a twitter account to go see what an organization had been tweeting about. Here’s some information right versus facebook which is very like within the world of facebook um the data trail that that creates is very different right? Organizations could say despite the hellscape we’re staying in twitter and we are to loop back to the previous conversation, um, an abortion fund and we are going to make sure that we are sharing information. No one has to interact. No one has to like ask us for it. But we’re putting this information out right in a place where people maybe find it in a search on facebook doing that or saying here’s our upcoming fundraiser to raise funds for abortion funds. Everyone who RSVPs for that event and has a texas address, has just created a data trail that is likely very problematic for them, Right? And the organization maybe didn’t even understand that’s what is happening, Right? So they are very different platforms, very different ethical dilemmas for sure. Um, but but what they mean for you as an organization staying there and what kinds of compromises you might be creating for already vulnerable communities are very different because they are just very different platforms, right? That operate differently.

[00:45:09.04] spk_0:
If we if we should decide to go elsewhere. Uh, let’s let’s talk about And you well, you mentioned, you may want to put on twitter that you can now find us on, we’re gonna talk about mastodon and uh, there’s another one post. Um, but you may want to just alert folks that your activity has moved, you know, over or or like you said, find us on linkedin or you know, we’re very we’re still very active on facebook. You know, instagram maybe, you know, maybe our channel. You know, whatever you want to I think you want to let folks know what you’ve decided without just disappearing. Mm

[00:45:14.16] spk_2:
hmm

[00:45:14.93] spk_0:
And

[00:45:16.37] spk_2:
like you probably should have those links on your website. So have updating your bio to say,

[00:45:22.54] spk_0:
you

[00:45:54.15] spk_2:
know, visit our website and find the channel that works for you or something. You know, you don’t have to um, you don’t have to write that farewell letter As in last tweet with every link to every site. Right? But making sure that you do think about what a user is going to see if they do try to look you up and have the bio be updated or whatever. Um there there are a lot of folks talking about mastered on host, these other platforms. I’m, I have accounts on them. You are welcome to find me. I’m not posting a bunch there or anything but you know me, I like to just see how tools developed. So I’ve had accounts on both of those and um,

[00:46:06.02] spk_0:
you’re more, you’re more altruistic than I am. You like to see how the, how the, how the platform develops. I just want to grab the name tony-martignetti

[00:46:15.28] spk_2:
before for

[00:46:22.96] spk_0:
somebody else who’s been on my show. I’ve had tony-martignetti other, another tony-martignetti on my show. Um, he never had me on his show come to think of it.

[00:46:25.18] spk_2:
Well there is as of today no other amy sample ward. So there’s only 1 20

[00:46:31.88] spk_0:
but but I’m not posting, but I wanted to grab the grab the real estate but I did it for more selfish reasons you

[00:46:38.05] spk_2:
did altruistic.

[00:46:39.81] spk_0:
I

[00:49:20.47] spk_2:
mean I think that um as is true with a lot of social media platforms that have been uh financed by and developed by the privileged communities of tech development, that’s who’s mostly on those platforms already right? Even though they’re very different mastodon is, you know, kind of like what’s the open source values, whatever. I haven’t seen a lot of that and and post trying to be more about like what are you really thinking and like content focused mostly screenshots of tweets so it feels a little um, a little, a little bit of whiplash but I wouldn’t say that it’s bad if you are like tony and you were like, but there’s so many organizations with our acronym like we want the the handle go for it but don’t go fill the account with content as if you are present there, just just sit on the handle, you know, because once you have a complete profile, Well now it looks like you are trying to post there and people don’t know how to interact right, just hold, it reserve it in your name, put the password in last past, you know, but but don’t, don’t um like I’ve always said and 10 doesn’t have an account on these platforms even though I just said that I do and a number of staff do because you aren’t going to use individual first platform as an organization. Well, if you haven’t been an individual first um, to actually know how it works. What’s the ins and outs of this tool? What are the norms? Um, mastodon works a little bit differently than folks may have experienced um, where you are in order to even create an account, you have to pick kind of what, what server you want to be associated with that changes what name it changes your default kind of news feed. Um, so there are a lot of things that you aren’t going to know out of the box for your organizational profile, you’re gonna need to play with it. And they’re, all these tools are developing a lot faster as they see hundreds of thousands of new users, you know. Um and I think again, back to the values point, they are also experiencing the challenges of lots of users write posts. Said that it only took six days before they had to take swastikas down. So what is it, what are the, what are the platforms doing, what are the values there? How are they moderating or managing content safety users before you say, oh yeah, let’s have our organization profile there.

[00:50:14.09] spk_0:
I did see uh a nonprofit power user and and very popular person, of course Beth Kanter, uh she’s active on mastodon. She didn’t just, she didn’t just take an account, but she’s actively moved there. Um, posting lists of other nonprofit folks to to follow that, you know, that she follows, so that another, another drop another name, J Frost, I see he’s there. Um so I mean that’s just, that’s just two people uh but beth in particular happens to have many hundreds of thousands of followers or had on on twitter. Um so it’s, it’s pretty monumental decision to believe that kind of um that kind of largeness and, and go to something where you know, you’re now, you now you now have zero followers on on day on day one. So that’s a significant decision. Um so I’ve seen and there’s some other folks too, but those, those, those are the ones that come to mind that, that have made the move there and and are active and actively encouraging others to

[00:50:38.88] spk_2:
come,

[00:50:41.86] spk_0:
you

[00:50:42.71] spk_2:
know, and I, and I think not to put Gene on the spot, I know this isn’t what you were prepared to talk about, but

[00:50:49.29] spk_0:
I

[00:51:51.18] spk_2:
think we saw this with facebook and you know, facebook had its own rules about how they would kind of pursue this. But these new, these new platforms will have to have their rules too. And that is organizations who don’t necessarily have a registered trademark but are very clearly like the United Way of Portland or something, you know, and then somebody went on there and created that account already, right? And is trying to sit on it, twitter has experienced, you know, people sitting on the accounts and then um people needing to have access to them and saying that’s actually my name or my organization’s name or you know people that sit on the U. R. L. S. Of like World War three. Oh now there is one, we need that U. R. L. You know whatever um so that that will there there will have to be a course whatever that course maybe for resolution on that. I also I just don’t want people leaving the conversation feeling like they need to spend the next two hours finding these platforms requesting an account and trying to sit on their organization’s name themselves. Like if you want to you can but don’t feel that’s not the takeaway here.

[00:51:56.72] spk_0:
Yeah, don’t do it, don’t do what tony-martignetti did or

[00:51:59.98] spk_2:
just don’t feel obligated that you have

[00:52:01.69] spk_0:
to,

[00:52:03.61] spk_1:
I’m sitting on a post account tony and I’m active on mastodon uh as well. So yeah I I think it’s going to be a tricky thing but for organizations, if you do find somebody using your name, you may want to bring it up and challenge that you talk to a lawyer about that, especially if they’re putting anything in that misrepresents your organization, if they’re acting like they’re spoofing your organization and putting out some content that’s not true or bad for you, make sure you put a stop to that

[00:52:34.39] spk_0:
I guess there are people who would do that and just hope to make some money at it Like

[00:52:40.35] spk_2:
there’s definitely money to be made. You

[00:52:44.04] spk_0:
know, if I get the ford motor company or Tesla or something, you know, I’ll be happy to sell it to you for $150,000 or well a million and a half seems to be my price. So

[00:53:08.96] spk_2:
I mean we see that with U. R. L. S already right. People just buy lots of U. R. L. S. Waiting for somebody to create a product called like the or uh, the oreo slushy. Great. Now we invented it. We need to buy that U. R. L. From you, you know? All

[00:53:09.20] spk_0:
right.

[00:53:10.19] spk_2:
We’re all in the wrong business. Let’s just go buy a bunch of

[00:53:29.93] spk_0:
alright, um, amy anything more? We should talk about mastodon. Oh, I did want to just clarify for folks because you mentioned mastodon, you have to select a server. It’s really just to me it’s a community. sure, but there are only about 10 of them. It’s not like there’s a knitting community and a and a rock climbing and a soccer, you know, it’s not like that. Not yet. But I don’t

[00:53:39.52] spk_2:
want to use the word community and have folks get to that first page and see the word server and have no idea where the word, you know, But yes, you’re right. You are, you’re kind of choosing the space. That’s your entry point into the world of mastodon

[00:53:57.09] spk_0:
And there is one with a social good label to it. So Beth Kanter is at Beth Kanter dot Social Good something.

[00:54:03.76] spk_2:
It’s

[00:54:04.20] spk_0:
like you said it it affects your

[00:54:06.10] spk_2:
your name

[00:54:06.92] spk_0:
affects your screen name, your your handle your I. D. Yeah.

[00:54:57.74] spk_2:
Um I the only last thing that I’ll add in our final minutes here is a very long time ago, people have been like O G listeners um you know, we used to say, well how would you know what social channels your users are on And you know, we’ve talked about having in your own website for your user profiles or in donation uh forms wherever you might be getting feedback from folks now that they have to put their U R. L. In, but just a checkbox like Oh yeah, we do. You I have a facebook account, an instagram account and whatever, you know, whatever it might be. Um make this is an opportunity to go check those lists and say maybe we should add mastodon on or maybe we should add post or we should update what options were actually providing. So so that you could notice, oh, there are a lot more people now here. Maybe it’s worth us looking at that platform. Right. So if you’re doing some year end data cleaning, look at your at your profile forms or your feedback forms where you might say, what tool, you know, what are their channels are you on and add some more of these newer tools.

[00:55:20.84] spk_0:
Amy sample ward Ceo of N 10 for the time being. She’s at

[00:55:26.18] spk_2:
they

[00:55:45.50] spk_0:
are at amy R. S Ward and Gene Takagi, principal attorney at the neo nonprofit and exempt organizations law group for the time being at g tech, but also you’ll find him on mastodon and post amy. Thank you jean, thank you very much.

[00:55:47.74] spk_2:
Thanks so much. tony I really do want to do shows together with jean.

[00:55:51.47] spk_0:
No, I concur yes, that’s uh that’s a good idea. Well let’s make sure we do another couple of these this year.

[00:55:57.73] spk_2:
Perfect,

[00:56:27.95] spk_0:
alright and again, happy new year. Next week. Erica mills Barnhart on common communications conundrums. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media, is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 26, 2022: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?

 

Gene Takagi: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?

Gene Takagi

Public trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that, what does it mean for our work, and what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO Law Group, returns with his insights.

 

 

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[00:00:52.08] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of fragility as angry. Um if you nailed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show in nonprofits, do we trust? Public Trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that? And what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi are legal contributor and principal of neo Law group returns with his insights On Tony’s take two. This is not planned, giving

[00:00:57.14] spk_1:
we’re

[00:01:41.13] spk_0:
sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi, you know who he is. Of course he he we owe him the introduction that he that he deserves, but you know who he is, He’s our legal contributor, Managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco he edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should follow and he’s a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and jean is at G tech. Gene

[00:01:58.66] spk_1:
thanks

[00:01:59.11] spk_0:
for being back Welcome.

[00:02:00.73] spk_1:
It’s great to be here.

[00:02:03.15] spk_0:
It’s always a genuine pleasure. Thank you.

[00:02:07.78] spk_1:
We’re

[00:02:20.77] spk_0:
talking about public trust today. Uh not only your concerns, but you’re, you’re seeing evidence of. And I’m certainly reading some things too about eroding public trust in nonprofits. What what are you seeing? What are you thinking about that?

[00:02:27.69] spk_1:
You know, my first thoughts, tony is that trust really is the foundation of, of good relationships, right. No matter whether we’re talking about person to person,

[00:02:39.09] spk_0:
person to

[00:03:18.40] spk_1:
charity, you know, person to other institutions and charities I think are especially reliant on trust because if you’re asking people and groups and organizations to give money to you, um, they’ve got to trust that you’re gonna do use that money for charitable purposes, not for personal gain, not for other things, but for the charitable purposes that they want to support. And when trust erodes in our charities, that’s really a red flag and sort of a harbinger of things, bad things that could follow. So trust is really important, I think, um, to talk about. And the study, the most recent study that came out from independent sector and Edelman Data and intelligence found that there’s low trust amongst all institutions. So maybe not completely surprising, but less than a third say the trust, government, large corporations and the news media

[00:03:35.93] spk_0:
and

[00:04:08.91] spk_1:
charities, relatively speaking are better than that in terms of the trust factor, but it’s been dropping and nonprofits as a, as a sector, The trust and nonprofits now is 56%. The rest either are neutral on it or have a distrust of nonprofits, only 56% and only 36% trust philanthropy or foundations and grantmaking organizations, so that’s really, really low. And women’s trust and non profits dropped even more than than men. Um, and I think another flag to point out is our younger generations, especially gen Z

[00:04:17.56] spk_0:
really

[00:04:18.43] spk_1:
have a distrust of nonprofits. Um, and

[00:04:22.83] spk_0:
with

[00:04:23.75] spk_1:
the wealth transfer that’s expected from baby boom generation to millennials and two gen Z, that’s got to be alarming to nonprofits. And I, I think it’s just worthy to call out right now.

[00:04:35.97] spk_0:
Do you know what that number is among gen z. Trust in nonprofits that in the independent sector include that in in their survey.

[00:04:49.81] spk_1:
Well, the statistic that I, I saw that that called out to me was 57% of gen z. Americans say giving directly to individuals makes a bigger impact than giving to nonprofits. So they would rather give to individuals on go fund me or another crowdfunding site than to give to a nonprofit. They find that more trustworthy.

[00:05:16.77] spk_0:
There’s another dimension to the, to the trust, which is government, trust in nonprofits. And you could read government as congressional or, you know, I. R. S. But you know, they they, the the U. S. Government has bestowed the charitable deduction so that the money is used for, as you said, you know, for charitable purposes as disclosed in your organizing documents. And if if I’m thinking more of Congress, you know, if congress feels that

[00:05:43.59] spk_1:
the

[00:05:43.80] spk_0:
nonprofit community can’t be trusted, you know, we could start to see some erosion of, uh, clawback of some of the, the benefits that nonprofits enjoy. Tax free status, for instance, and the charitable deduction to name a couple of

[00:06:00.50] spk_1:
wildly

[00:06:01.37] spk_0:
wildly valuable ones.

[00:06:22.64] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s such a great point because just a few days ago, there was news about a case in Minnesota where government funding to feed poor Children, um, there was a huge scandal involving tens of millions of dollars. So, um, it really speaks to two if government stops trusting nonprofits or certain government agencies and cuts funding to agencies, how harmful that might be to charities and the beneficiaries they’re trying to serve.

[00:06:35.87] spk_0:
I think that one was even worse. I think it was like $240 million dollars

[00:06:41.59] spk_1:
worth

[00:06:42.04] spk_0:
of pandemic aid money. I saw that in, in Minnesota is supposed to be going to feed Children during the pandemic and, and pocketed. Yeah,

[00:06:52.51] spk_1:
patterns there as well. It’s, it’s,

[00:06:55.94] spk_0:
yeah,

[00:06:58.09] spk_1:
it

[00:06:58.93] spk_0:
is. It’s, it’s, um, and then of course there’s always been Charles grassley. I mean, he’s been, he’s been nipping at, uh, foundations and donor advised funds for for years

[00:08:03.64] spk_1:
now. Yeah. And in fact, the whole charitable sector, I think, um, and a significant portion of our lawmakers, um, take a consumer protection perspective of, we want to protect donors, um, and not strengthening the nonprofit sector perspective they want to create laws that will per, you know, try to prevent, um, uh, fraud or misuse of charitable funds as if this is rampant amongst the nonprofit sector, which my position is, it is not, but there are certain high profile cases that hit the new york times and the Washington post and all the other newspapers. And there’s so much media coverage that focuses on scandals because that’s what’s gonna sell right. The tweet or the short snippet that people’s attention span will, will actually stop on. Um, it’s gonna sell much more if it’s a scandal rather than a long term growth in in impact. Even, you know, the, the great news that child poverty has, has been really declining in in the country, which should be huge news gets short shrift compared to some of the big scandals that we hear about.

[00:09:08.60] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. When I name dropped Charles Grassley, I should have said Senator, senator from Iowa, Republican, senator from Iowa Charles grassley. Um, yeah, right. It’s, it’s the scandals that, that’s, that get clicks that sell papers that get attention. I remember, I’m sure you do several years ago there was a scandal among an, an organization supposedly raising money for Navy Veterans like Navy Navy Veteran Foundation or something like that several years ago, but it was very high profile. Um, what was the other, do you remember, I don’t mean to put you on the spot. It’s okay if you don’t remember because I don’t the, uh, the veterans organization that was accused of squandering, you know, tens of millions of dollars on lavish retreats and high, high executive salaries. But, but, but it it had it had great outcomes. It was, it was funding lots of veterans organizations.

[00:09:25.25] spk_1:
I think the one you’re talking about is the Wounded Warriors.

[00:09:29.11] spk_0:
Thank you. Yes. Project.

[00:09:51.07] spk_1:
And yeah, it’s, um, it’s always difficult. Um, looking at an organization through the eyes of the media, um, about how, you know, how well or unwell they did. I don’t want to create, um, you know, uh, discuss particular scandals too much other than to say that they create problems for the whole sector. So, you know, that’s, it’s just something to be aware of. And they’re not necessarily reflective of the vast majority of nonprofits out there trying to do good work and help people.

[00:10:17.64] spk_0:
The 99.99% you know, our our that’s even higher than the nonprofit radio 95% No, uh, 99.99% of nonprofits are not scandalous. And could they, could many of them be running more efficiently. Yes, but we’re not, we’re not talking about mere efficiency. You know, we’re talking about erosion of trust because of high profile crises or scandals malfeasance.

[00:10:37.97] spk_1:
Yeah, high

[00:10:39.21] spk_0:
profile,

[00:10:39.92] spk_1:
not

[00:11:55.21] spk_0:
representative. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They know the nonprofit community and they know pr and journalism. Both partners are former journalists peter pan a pinto, one of the two worked as senior managing editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. And after that he was at the council on foundations. So he understands the nonprofit space very well, which means he understands your challenges, understands how important pr and being a thought leader is to to your work. And the two of them together know how to build relationships with outlets, not just with journalists, but you know, also podcasters, um, conference organizers. So they understand nonprofits, they understand communications, how to build relationships and that’s what’s gonna get you heard across all media. So let’s turn to turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to in nonprofits. Do we trust?

[00:12:00.88] spk_1:
It takes me to another tangent though, now that you talked about efficiency, tony and that’s kind of, we’ve talked about it before and you’ve talked about it with the writers of uh, article or a letter called the overhead myth. I don’t know if you recall

[00:12:16.06] spk_0:
that many years ago. Yes. The C E O. S of charity Navigator better business. Bureau wise giving alliance and guidestar.

[00:13:08.09] spk_1:
Yeah. And you know, they were saying that we shouldn’t, you know, base ratings on a charity in terms of how worthy they are to receive funds from donors simply based on overhead ratio. You know what their admin and fundraising costs are relative to their programmatic costs and those are really wise wise words, um, that that were stated in that letter. But even today we still see organizations even high profile ones that talk about their low overhead ratio. And it can engender trust um, in their organization at the expense of trust of other organizations that legitimately have higher overhead ratios because the infrastructures and you know, the things that they need to do may be completely different. So it’s not fair to, you know, compare across the board and across the maturity of an organization. So

[00:14:06.82] spk_0:
another very valuable thing to invest in is is research, research, uh, maybe maybe going beyond research, activating a new program that, you know, that may or may not succeed, but you have to invest upfront, you know that it’s annoying the folks who hold different opinions about wise investment in technology, you know, it’s Uber should be losing money for the 1st 12 years, you know, because it’s investing in the future. Um, Tesla, you know, non profit unprofitable for many years, but you know, look where they are now, but, but in the nonprofit sector, you know, we don’t we don’t allow that that research and um, spending on innovation, we consider that overhead like, you know, like, like rent, which rent happens to be important too, but you know, something, something um, rent is not a good example, but sort of, you know, frivolous or you know, self indulgent when it could very well be research and and scaling up for for a for a dynamic

[00:14:29.60] spk_1:
future or even things like a living wage.

[00:15:22.90] spk_0:
Yeah. Good. Exactly. Thank you. Yes. Um, yeah, I I don’t like the, you know, I don’t like the double standard where we we we praise it in in some industries, but we we we criticize it uh, in in non profits. And I’m thinking specifically about investment in the future and whether that’s people or programs or even technology, technology is a is a valuable investment. It saves time. It creates productivity, makes people more comfortable at work. It enables them to work out of an office now and be remote, give them that benefit, which so many people are craving now, you know, but these are these are all wise investments, not not um, detrimental overhead.

[00:16:33.02] spk_1:
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And there’s a way to do it cheap. You could invest in technology on the cheap and that might have long term adverse consequences, including to kind of the sort of the data protection and privacy issues that can result. So if you’re really thinking ahead and investing in, not only just technology, just to be sort of more effective and efficient in the short term, the protective of your beneficiaries and your staff and others your donors in the long term, um, then you need to make more of an investment in that. And that’s another thing where, you know, we lose trust if you if you sort of blow your donor lists that are supposed to be private and you know, other big companies get ahold of it and start to target your donor base for unrelated things or even if they’re related sometimes, but not your organization and it was due to a slip on your part or your technology and information technology protocols. You can run into trouble. So again, investments have a double edged sword there. Great. But they can result in a loss of trust too if you’re not managing it properly and you compromise people’s information.

[00:16:41.40] spk_0:
Um, and also, you know, you mentioned living wage but investing in people so that people stay with your organization.

[00:16:48.75] spk_1:
All

[00:16:49.07] spk_0:
right. And that that starts with a living wage that also impacts to on technology. Uh, you know, time away professional development. You know, these are, these are investments in staff that people see and appreciate and make longevity with your organization more likely than you know, than than to to jump ship every six months.

[00:17:11.75] spk_1:
And that builds trust to write, I’m much more comfortable working with you if you’ve been with the charity for 10 years, Tony than if you were hired three months ago and there’s always a different person I’m talking to as a donor.

[00:17:31.13] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. You have some insights into what we as a community or hopefully even individual nonprofits can can start to think about take to their C. E. O. S. Take to their boards. This is always where you Excel gene.

[00:18:33.73] spk_1:
Well in the first steps are kind of simple. Um you know, it’s be compliant yourself, make sure your own houses in order. Um so we can sort of raise all of the issues with where you can lose trust with organizations. Um but even though 99.9% of the organizations are well intentioned, I can’t say that 99.9% of the organizations are compliant. Um so working to make sure you’re compliant Working to make sure that the tone is set at the top with the strong board of directors that is actually providing direction and oversight and not just simply helping you, you know, with fundraising and otherwise just rubber stamping the decisions of the leaders. I think it really is important that the tone be set at the top of the organization through the board of directors. A

[00:18:34.26] spk_0:
tone say say more about the tone.

[00:19:11.50] spk_1:
So the tone of placing the importance of a trusting relationship with our beneficiaries with our employees with our other stakeholders. I think that’s really important and that should be reflected in policies. So it’s not good enough to say, you know, this is what we believe in. So the, you know, one of the hot topics today is a board sets a diversity equity and inclusion policy. But if that policy just sits on the shelf and that’s the end of the discussion of it. And there are no actual changes or action plans attached to that that’s gonna maybe harm the organization more than help it. So the tone at the top means a board that is doing its role in moving that organization forward and focusing um not only on doing good work and, you know, metrics for for programmatic success, but on building trust within and outside of the organization.

[00:20:07.00] spk_0:
And that that Ceo board chair uh Ceo executive committee, if the board has an executive committee relationship is key to this. I mean, they they all whether it’s two people or the Ceo and a committee, you know, need to be uh you know, committed to the same, not only the same mission, but the same uh strategy for getting there. You know, the same commitment to the things that you’re talking about, this needs to be a a unified

[00:20:08.30] spk_1:
working

[00:20:09.10] spk_0:
group at the top between the Ceo and the board leadership.

[00:21:55.36] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s absolutely critical tony I agree. There is, however, sort of another dimension to this which adds complexity and that’s kind of the feeling amongst particularly younger generations. Again, and why there’s a little bit of distrust is too much power focused on the top of an organization without sort of distributing leadership and and the right to participate in this. You know, the bigger decisions of the organization being dispersed throughout the organization and getting input from beneficiaries about um you know, how the organization should evolve or um move forward in further its purpose if we’re not really thinking about getting other voices in it, and particularly if our boards are not very diverse, um that’s gonna engender more distrust as well um with with an organization and this leadership. So while what’s happening at the top level and the relationship between the Ceo and the chair of the board is critically important, it is really important to also make sure that leadership, authority and power is being dispersed down through the organization and that the board actually can listen to directly um input from some of the staff. Um and we shouldn’t create like a wall between board and staff completely. You know, that there’s a little bit of um new thinking on that because the old old ways is like the board should not micromanage right. We should not interfere with staff decisions, which is partly true, but it doesn’t mean that we create a complete block. So the board members don’t see the staff members and the staff don’t see the board and they just don’t know each other. So, um there is a sort of a balance there that needs to be taken.

[00:22:20.82] spk_0:
Can we, can we say a little more about that in terms of examples of how this could be done? Like you’re you’re talking about staff, but also the beneficiaries of the programmatic work. Uh is this um like, I mean, certainly beneficiaries could be members of the board or or is it more an advisory committee, but then to your point, you know, you don’t want it to just be a committee that the board doesn’t listen to. The ceo doesn’t listen to. You know, how can we uh actually execute on on some of this in terms of staff and beneficiaries?

[00:24:23.71] spk_1:
So there are a lot of different ways that it might be done and there’s no one right way for, you know, for all organizations, but getting other voices involved can be done in, you know, um through committees as you suggested, but they can’t just be advisory. If you’re really gonna disperse power, you have to give them some power even if they’re not made up of only board members and some people call any committee that is not composed of only board members, they call them at advisory committees. And because of the name, they think that they can only give advice to the board, but they don’t have any management authority. But that’s not true. You can give these other committees management authority, the way you can give a Ceo or CFO management authority, the board can delegate authority down to these other committees. These non board committees as well. So that may be one way of getting power dispersed through the organization, that that committee might be made up of some employees, some beneficiaries and maybe there is a pipeline so that some of the other people that you’d like to put onto a board, but you might not know very well, you might not have enough experience in certain things that you’d like to have them develop more knowledge of the organization and the work before they possibly a strong candidate for joining the board, but that could be a vehicle or an on ramp to being a board um board member as well. And again, creating a more diverse and stronger board with diverse perspectives and understandings of what the organization does and who it impacts. So I think there are definitely ways and we’ve seen this in other models as well. Some that have worked with some organizations and same models not working with other organizations. Hill Ocracy is sort of one example of that. What

[00:24:24.13] spk_0:
is that drug in jail? What? Hill Ocracy.

[00:25:53.62] spk_1:
Hill Ocracy is a form of management where there are still remnants of hierarchy, but a lot of decision making is made in kind of circles and circles might be employed, they might be employees and others and circles have certain autonomy over their body of decision making. So you might have a circle based on HR issues. So it’s not just one person with the final say, it’s this circle or a group in the law, we would just call it another committee. But um in hypocrisy there all circles and and this was used by some high profile for profit companies and some nonprofits, some had success with it, Some didn’t. So um there are other models out there as well, not one size will fit all, but again, there’s an administrative cost to trying to implement new models, um, but new models or maybe the way that we want to go and their movement organizations all over the place that are impacting how nonprofits and for profits are to be governed and managed. And we should be listening to some of these forces that are out there because they will gradually shape what we’re doing. You can see this by some younger people not sticking with employment as long as they were the great resignation and stuff. If you feel powerless within an organization or if you don’t feel the organization is representing what you want, your employer to be doing, they may not stay and having a little bit of say in what the organization is doing, even if it’s just the starting points because you can’t jump from point a to, you know, to the ideal point in one step, it’s gonna take a long, a long time to get there. But just to seeing that progress may be assigned to somebody to to say, I’m gonna stick around here and and find out

[00:26:35.35] spk_0:
alright creating vehicles for right people’s voices to be heard. Um, and you’re right, it’s, it’s incremental, but just the, just the showing of some progress, some initiative to uh, opening up the leadership, opening

[00:26:38.15] spk_1:
up

[00:26:41.97] spk_0:
strategic decision making, could be, it could be uh, you know, valuable to, to folks right? And encourage them to, to stay versus looking for someplace that’s more inclusive. Yeah.

[00:26:53.98] spk_1:
You know, if your Ceo doesn’t trust the board or if your employees don’t trust the ceo, how are you going to expect donors and your beneficiaries to trust the organization? So it really trust has to be built throughout the organization.

[00:28:41.45] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Are you seeing technology as the investment that it is not as an expense, but an investment in your sustainability, your staff productivity, your staff happiness, um, satisfaction, an investment in your donor relations through your crm database. Uh, it’s an investment in your organization’s work and its future. That’s what technology that’s where your technology ought to be thought of. And fourth dimension four D. For short can help you make those investments wisely so that you’re not squandering on something you don’t really need. Like maybe your backup is sufficient, but you need the multi factor authentication installed, etcetera. So you know, they can help you think through smart technology investments. That’s it four D. And you know where the listener landing pages to check them out. It’s at tony dot M A slash four D. Which by the way is just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to in non profits. Do we trust? What else do you see Gene as as things we can we can think about besides this sort of distributed, I’m calling it distributed leadership or maybe you call it distributed leadership. Yeah.

[00:29:32.73] spk_1:
So other things. Maybe some simple tips guard private data. We talked a little bit about it before with technology. If you’ve got data that you’re promising that will be kept confidential. Make sure you’re guarding that. Be careful about automating and depersonalizing interactions with technology as well. Like we could have a sort of a voicemail for everybody and you know, hit one if you want to do this. It too. If you want to do this and completely not let any donor speak to any individual without, you know, spending an hour on the phone that may not be, uh, seen as something that would build trust. So we have to be careful of our uses of technology there as well in our communications. Um, if you’re going to say something, um, don’t talk the talk. If you’re not going to walk the walk, right? So don’t make promises that you’re not going to keep

[00:29:41.70] spk_0:
that for an example of that is A D. I. Policy,

[00:29:45.44] spk_1:
right? Exactly

[00:29:46.80] spk_0:
written and never, never executed or remains written once and never evolves.

[00:31:13.44] spk_1:
And if you have a campaign to engage in a particular, uh, you know, program and you don’t raise enough money. And so that program never runs, you better be explaining this to your donors. Um, why that happened. And the possibility that that might happen when you start fundraising for it. So don’t just say, you know, after the fact when they complain that said, well we didn’t raise enough. So we used your money for other things that’s not going to engender trust. Um remember your mission and your beneficiaries don’t exist in a vacuum, right? Um, so it’s not just about your organization. And if you your numbers go up, um whatever metrics that you use financial performance or number of beneficiaries served whatever they are, you shouldn’t look at it as a silo. You should be looking at the entire ecosystem in which you are participating. And that would be, you know, open up things like environmentalism like you might not think environmental, your organization’s not environmental organization, but if climate change continues and creates hardships that, you know, scientists are predicting, predicting you probably will have an impact on your mission and your beneficiaries. And so to sort of think, just, you know, outside of that, that silo you want to be thinking about what your impact of your decisions will be, not only on your organization and beneficiaries, but on your allied organizations, on the broader community and what will that do to trust as well. So,

[00:32:03.91] spk_0:
a lot of these ideas, a lot of what you’re saying could be, you know, germinating in an advisory committee, you know, how could we look differently at at our contribution to climate change and what climate change means to us in the future for our for our for our people and for our work, but also what could we be doing right now, You know, even if we’re not an environmental organization siloed as you’re saying, you know, we still have an environmental impact. So what what contribution to to minimize climate change or reverse climate change can we make as well as planning for the for the future? Uh you know, that that those kinds of conversations can come out of these um advisory committees that is that are comprised of staff and and beneficiaries. I mean, these are the folks that live the mission day to day.

[00:32:36.09] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea to tony Sometimes the board may not have um or feel that they have the bandwidth to sort of discuss these sort of broader issues. Um and they’re a little bit more focused. So having the help um the advisory committee on an issue like like climate change for a non environmental organization or an organization whose mission is not focused on the environment. I think that would be great.

[00:32:45.06] spk_0:
Yeah. And I want to reiterate your point that which I’ve never thought of, advisory committees can be granted policy making authority and and and change within the organization. So whatever that looks like, you know, you can bestow that that authority

[00:33:05.16] spk_1:
Absolutely, and you can give them a budget to even sort of to putting

[00:33:11.20] spk_0:
money behind it. But that that yeah, money talks. That’s a that’s a big step granting them a budget granting them some granting them authority to make change that’s empowering and an advisory committee. All right.

[00:34:01.14] spk_1:
I think, you know, one area of trust that we haven’t spoken yet, but maybe, um why I as a lawyer and talking about these things and you’re not getting it from another consultant, is that the laws can also impact trust and non profits have to decide whether they want to set a position on certain laws. And um, some of the things that I’m thinking about is the deductibility of charitable contributions. So, we’ve had an above the line contribution where non itemizers could deduct as well because of Covid. Um, but that was just temporary. Um, and now there’s sort of a push for, well, we should make a charitable contribution deductible to all taxpayers, and not just about the 10% of taxpayers who itemize, who tend to be, you know, have a little bit more wealth, or some, in some cases a lot more than those who don’t itemize.

[00:34:17.90] spk_0:
Is it that small? The proportion of taxpayers who itemize is around 10%,,

[00:34:22.34] spk_1:
10-13%, is what I’m hearing.

[00:34:24.86] spk_0:
Okay,

[00:35:52.18] spk_1:
So, um, again, you know, part of trust and distrust has to do with concentrations of power and wealth, right? And when the 1% or the .1% control so much policy control the leadership of pivotal organizations in all sectors, and in government, um, there’s going to be a distrusted institutions. Again, that, you know, one third of people distrust big institutions. Um, and, you know, that concentration of wealth and power is, is the reason why. Um so laws that sort of enforce that. So if we just give you no deductible, make make tax benefits to, to richer people who can deduct, who can itemize their deductions and not to others that may feel really unfair to the public. And another reason for distrust. So, will your organization’s, even though tax policy is probably almost no organization’s mission, it has an impact. Um, and so it may be something that organizations want to take a look at. And there are organizations like independent sector of the National Council on nonprofits and others who the Tax Policy center that that can explain this a little bit. But you you may want to take a look and see if you want to put a position on it. And one of the things that I also think, um engender distrust is when the media miss reports, the law in one area where the mis reported it is a lot of media say, charities can’t lobby and that’s just not true. Um, so charities can lobby on things like, you know, the the above the line deduction. Um, and and on other things as well, and there are just certain limits that apply, but they’re often generous, So learn a little bit more and we can build a stronger sector?

[00:36:21.84] spk_0:
Well, you and I have talked about the the lobbying limits on previous shows, is it is it safe to say that the law hasn’t changed over the past? I don’t know, 23 years maybe, since you and I have talked about this.

[00:36:34.17] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:37:06.11] spk_0:
So, so at Tony-Martignetti.com, you can search gene Takagi, you’ll find many episodes that he’s on and one or one or two are about the uh, the lobbying limits, I think, I think the last time may have been 2020 when the pre election. So we may well, with the, with the election in late The election in late 2020, so we may have done something like in mid-2020 or so on the lobbying, uh, exemption or Well, that’s not that’s not that’s not the right phrase. What the limits of lobbying and you make the you just said, you know, they are, they are generous in some cases. It’s not it’s not that it has to be a de minimus proportion of your budget or something.

[00:37:24.83] spk_1:
Yeah, the

[00:37:26.87] spk_0:
yeah,

[00:37:27.68] spk_1:
the losses insubstantial which scares the majority of charities away from doing any of it, but it turns out it can be fairly generous limits to engaging in lobbying.

[00:38:01.79] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and the point that you made before that, I was going to say something about that too. Well, sorry, what did you say? Right before you were talking about the uh, the permissibility of some lobbying activities. You made a point? Yes, thank you. The last thing we want is for Donating to charity to be perceived as, uh, as an elitist activity. That only the only the top now you’re saying whatever 10 or 13% of the population can, can give because they’re the only ones who get the advantage because they’re the only, they’re the ones who itemize their deductions. The last thing we want is for donating to charities to be perceived as an elitist activity.

[00:39:13.92] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. tony and with, you know, with our current tax policy, how it works. Um, then I don’t want to get too complicated with that. We are seeing a shrinking middle class. I don’t think there’s anything denying that people, most people have less discretionary income. So if we look at the fundraising statistics now, the giving statistics, we see that, um, even if giving goes up Giving from kind of the middle class and smaller donors has shrunk, um, and, and quite significantly, and it’s, it’s the people, um, that have put in huge contributions that have made up for that. So the Mackenzie Scott, you know, with, I think $13 billion dollars over the last few years, they’re making up for that. But that can change the way nonprofits run if, if it’s all about, again, elite, wealthy, powerful individuals who make the big contributions that then have the ear of the boards of these organizations that then talk about policy and they create policy or, or advocate for policies that keep that dynamic in existence. So it is problematic.

[00:40:52.59] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony Take two. My latest video on linkedin is this is not planned giving uh it’s short under two minutes. I give you an example of what is not planned giving and remind you what planned giving is, how simple planned giving is when it’s done right, when you start with simple gifts by will. But I’ve got kind of a lighthearted back way of looking at it through what planned giving isn’t in the opening. So latest video on linkedin, you’ll find me on linkedin. My name is tony-martignetti by the way that has escaped you. And uh it’s my latest video there That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for in nonprofits. Do we trust with Gene Takagi? Look at this dark potential that people look at at the United States as alright, the wealthy control government because of dark money and and the Citizens United decision, the Supreme Court uh wealthy control business because only wealthy people start and or run run businesses and grow them and only only white males have the access to capital to start businesses. And then and then the perception that um the wealthy control the nonprofit

[00:41:13.41] spk_1:
sector, you

[00:41:21.27] spk_0:
know, and the wealthy control of media, you know, this is all this is all very uh a very detrimental, very dark cynical way of looking at the at the country, but I’m not I’m not sure that where that’s far away from

[00:42:10.55] spk_1:
it. Yeah, I agree. tony And I think past generations, you know, including ours, you know, we’ve always kind of done better than our parents. Our parents were lucky enough to put us in that position. But the younger generations now economically um and maybe, you know health wise and mental health wise, they may not be doing as well as their parents overall and they’re questioning kind of the system because of that. Um and we maybe didn’t question it because our generation did better than our parents um in those terms. But now there is just legitimate questioning of do we need to change these policies and these dynamics and these power structures and um you know, organizations have a say in this and and use your voice, get get people to vote. Maybe that’ll be my my one of my big messages vote

[00:43:27.00] spk_0:
voting is fundamental to although, you know, in a lot of states that’s being eroded you becoming more difficult, although in a lot of states it’s easier to um you know, another thing that comes to mind when, you know, you’re talking about the generations below the the the boomers not doing as well as the one before them. Um The FDA just yesterday recommended mental health screening at regular uh regular doctor visits, like an annual annual health health checkup for everybody under 65 And and they had been considering this policy that this recommendation is just a recommendation to the medical community from from for years before the pandemic. This is not, this is not pandemic-related recommendation. They had been considering this for years before the pandemic that there’s a lot of stress and anxiety among the population under 65 and 65 is basically the baby boomer cut off within a couple of years.

[00:43:59.55] spk_1:
And then, you know, as you noted, this was even before Covid that they’ve been advocating for this and now with Covid and the mental health issues that are sort of go along with not just the disease, but the isolation that many are experiencing and long Covid, which is sort of an underappreciated under recognized problem and disabilities maybe creating more disability, disabled americans than anything. Um, since you know, the World War two, I think would be the last one. It’s just, it’s mind blowing

[00:44:01.44] spk_0:
and I and I and all this does contribute to a decline in trust in all institutions and nonprofit. The nonprofit community is a major institution in the country. So you know, that’s, that’s how this is all related

[00:44:15.09] spk_1:
to what you

[00:44:21.48] spk_0:
and I are talking about. I want to make that connection explicit that anxiety among the population creates anxiety for nonprofits and, and and distrust and disbelief in nonprofit work. Whether that’s justified or not perception is reality.

[00:44:36.71] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree. tony

[00:44:40.74] spk_0:
All right. I don’t know. So we had, we had said one of the things we’re gonna talk about is what happens, what happens if this continues? I mean, I already painted a pretty dark cynical scenario. Um, is there anything more you want to say around? You know, what, what the implications are if the community doesn’t start to help itself?

[00:46:25.73] spk_1:
Well, maybe on a more micro looking basis, it just means for a charity, they’re gonna experience diminished fundraising. Not everybody gets Mackenzie scott, Jeff Bezos money. Right. Most of them are relying upon a pool of donors, um, many of which are aging, um, and may age out of their donor pool. Um, and shrinking again, middle class, shrinking, discretionary income for many people, meaning West donations. Um, we might see more direct giving to individuals as people are saying, well, I don’t trust charities overall. I’d rather just give to my friends who say, you know, somebody is in need as crowdfunding fight sites just continue to, to grow in importance and also in in power as well. Um, and that’s just gonna be to the detriment of, you know, beneficiaries of our charity. So again, in the micro level, we make less money, people trust us less. Our employee retention is less. Um, our donor pool is shrinking and we can help less people even as the need for our services increases. So that’s kind of the dark side look of it. Um, we can try to be the nonprofit that stands out and you know, is the trustworthy non profit from, from a public perception standpoint. Um, that’s good. But again, don’t see yourself in a silo lift yourself up with all the boats in the water and, and really try to strengthen the nonprofit sector where you can, and, and advocating on some of the laws that make things more fair, I think is a good start there

[00:46:41.97] spk_0:
advocating maybe there’s a way of partnering

[00:46:45.00] spk_1:
with other

[00:46:55.64] spk_0:
organizations, not, not in all in all things. I don’t mean a legal formal partnership, but you know, if, if there’s, if there’s a way of working together for an event or, or some kind of advocacy,

[00:47:03.61] spk_1:
you

[00:47:11.44] spk_0:
know, we’ve had shows on the values of that and how to do that. Um, so that everybody, you know it, so that it’s, it’s not seen as a, as a zero sum within your, within your community that if if if someone else, some other organizations benefiting, then you’re losing. You know, that’s not the way to look at,

[00:47:25.67] spk_1:
at,

[00:47:26.47] spk_0:
at the world and and that not nonprofit support. We we all could be or a couple of couple of organizations together could be rising together.

[00:47:37.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ll add that the independent sector survey, the Edelman Data Intelligence survey that we mentioned at the start of the show also has some tips on building up trust within the sector. So it’s not all of dark outlook. It’s just encouraging people that the importance of this is very, very high. Um, so let’s go out and actually make things happen? So that, that dark outlook doesn’t happen

[00:48:05.70] spk_0:
within independent sector. Gene, what’s the, what’s the name of the you’re saying? Edelman data?

[00:48:11.03] spk_1:
Yeah, I think they contracted out with Edelman E D E L M A. And Data and intelligence and their third annual reports. This is an annual report is available on the independent sector website.

[00:48:26.66] spk_0:
Okay, thank you. Edelman E D E L M A N,

[00:48:30.68] spk_1:
correct.

[00:48:49.24] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Uh, you mentioned the five oh one C four’s a little bit, but there have been a couple in the news very recently, most recently the uh, Patagonia companies, uh, sort of evolution into a uh, a new nonprofit, a new a new five oh one C four. non profit the hold fast collective.

[00:51:57.05] spk_1:
Yeah. So the founder of Patagonia and his family member, they were the principal owners of Patagonia and they decided to give up ownership of the company, but you know, they gave it not to a charity, but to a 501 C four organization. Um, it’s called the social welfare organization and for listeners who aren’t maybe familiar with it, you probably are familiar with many five oh one C four organizations themselves, like the N. R. A. Planned parenthood, the A. C. L. U. Sierra Club. So these are advocacy organizations that have kind of charitable like purposes. Um, but our can engage in unlimited lobbying and can engage in election nearing or political campaign intervention? Supporting political candidates and political parties, as long as that’s not their primary activity or purpose. So this is sort of the source or one of the big sources of where dark money comes in tony that you mentioned with the Citizens United Decision before donor that wants to support a candidate but stay hidden from public view about their support of the Can rather than giving directly to the candidate, could give to a 501 C four organization and the C Four organization can get their money’s into the candidate. And the donor that is disclosed is the C Four organization, not the donor to the C Four organization. So that’s how you can create dark money. And with the Patagonia case, it’s very clear who the donor was. So we don’t expect that to be the dark money that we’re as leery of, but it’s still, you know, a huge gift which, you know, for somebody who believes in in in the environmental movement I think is a great gift. But news media miss reporting it or some news media are mis reporting it as kind of something that doesn’t get a tax benefit because a donor doesn’t get an income tax deduction for giving to a five oh one C Four organization the way they do if they give to a charity. Um but there are other tax exemptions that apply like a gift tax exemption or in a state tax exemption. So this gift is overall saving. Um uh mr Schwinn nerd um the owner and his family probably somewhere in the realm of $800 million in taxes. Um So it is not completely a no tax benefit transaction. Again this is not to disparage them for taking advantage of a system that allows for these gifts Um to go with with some tax benefits, but it’s not just the income tax deduction that matters in in donations there for for very wealthy people like billionaires. Um the gift and estate tax exemptions which can be 40%, right? So it can be very very high higher than income tax they matter. Um and so that’s something to be aware of that. Um this is a very wealthy person who gave up much of the ownership share, I guess all of his ownership shares to this 501 C4 organization, except really importantly 2% of the gift. Overall gift was given to a trust that’s not a nonprofit.

[00:52:14.55] spk_0:
Yeah those voting, those are the 2% of the voting that are the voting shares,

[00:52:58.58] spk_1:
right? So because they’re in control of that trust with with some close advisers um they have not given control out of Patagonia, right? They still can control Patagonia. Um And again they’re taking advantage of existing law what what it allows but it allows billionaires to not give up control of their company, get an $800 million tax benefit for giving or you know $3 billion Uh to a 501 C4 organization that could spend nearly half of it on endorsing political candidates. Um So it’s kind of an interesting tax system that that allows for that.

[00:53:18.19] spk_0:
And if if you consider that, you know supportive of uh of a liberal progressive cause because the whole fast collective the the new C4 is is devoted to uh the ill effects of climate change, you know, reversing climate change, impacting climate change. Uh So if you consider that of a left cause, then there’s an example on the right side with uh mr barr seed and the marble Freedom Trust. Another five oh one C four.

[00:53:44.39] spk_1:
Yeah. And that sea forces led by Leonard Leo who maybe the person most responsible for the changing of our Supreme Court and therefore the decisions on things like abortion might be largely attributed to mr Leo,

[00:53:56.21] spk_0:
fundraiser and activist and very well connected guy in conservative circles.

[00:56:20.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And used to be Executive vice president of the Federalist Society whose mission was to change the composition of the Supreme Court. So um I I don’t think that’s controversial and that’s just what their goal was. And they were very effective at achieving that goal. But this $1.6 billion kind of same thing. There there are some tax benefits that go along with it. There’s no income tax deduction. Um and mr uh c passed away. I think this was given after his death. But another big contribution to an organization led by somebody who has immense influence and now a huge war chest that can be used for political activities. Again, the primary activity cannot be political campaign intervention. Um, but some people believe, or many people believe that means 49% of the funds can be used for political campaign intervention. And that’s kind of the source of dark money. Although again in this case we do know where the donor came from. Um, so it’s not dark in that way in terms of hidden donors, but it’s still donations that didn’t go directly to the political candidate. It went through five oh one C four first, get the tax benefits for that, which his heirs, I guess would appreciate. Um, uh, and the impact of that again, is that? Well, in both cases, very wealthy people are able to keep control with people who they trust or their family members of their money to be used for political purposes. They can’t use it for themselves to, you know, to buy huge houses and boats, but they can use it for things that were very important to them. But that means for people like us and most of your listeners, tony is like, what influence do we have compared to that individual who gave billions of dollars to influence political elections. Um, and you know, what, you know, can we change our Supreme Court sort of composition the way that they’re able to do, probably not by ourselves. So it again is, is the reason why people go, hey, these are nonprofits that they’re using to do this. I don’t trust non profits, this is what they’re used for. And charities kind of get lumped in because the ordinary, you know, people, the lay person doesn’t know the difference between a five oh one C three and five A one C four organization.

[00:56:36.19] spk_0:
Yeah, and that’s right. And it’s it’s if it’s mentioned in a in in press coverage, you know, it’s mentioned in passing that it it’s it’s an organization that’s distinguished from from uh charities. But you know, it’s like, it’s like a sentence or two. You know, it’s it’s never it’s never a focal point. So your point is correct that people just lump them all together

[00:57:00.57] spk_1:
and flows through nonprofits and that’s why we shouldn’t trust nonprofit.

[00:57:04.97] spk_0:
So the wealthy control government and they control politics and they control business and media and and nonprofits.

[00:57:18.46] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s that’s what we, We’re finding more and more is the case, but we’re trying to change policies and change minds about this so that we can see that the impact of the 99.9% out there is actually even bigger than the impact that we mentioned about a few individuals. Um, it just has to be organized. Um, and non profits are way to do that.

[00:58:21.68] spk_0:
Well, that’s a, that’s a pretty good way to close. Probably we should have closed with what our community can do. But you know, you’re suffering the lackluster host. So uh you can rewind to that section and then uh fast forward and you can end with that if you want to. Um, but but jean, you know, always thank you, you know, sort of reality, but also wisdom and inspiration. And and not only um ethereal pedagogical inspiration, but you know, ideas that we can we can we can act on. So thank you. Thank you.

[00:58:24.63] spk_1:
Thank you Tony. And your closing statement is actually always the greatest ending. So, I’m looking forward to hearing it.

[00:59:39.16] spk_0:
Okay, All right, thank you jean. Next week. Let’s see what develops and why do I even say uh, next week if I don’t know what’s coming up next week, but we’re here we are. We’re talking about trust and part of that is transparency. So I’m being transparent that I don’t know what next week’s show is gonna be, I know what the 1 to 2 weeks from now is gonna be. We’re gonna have beth cancer and Allison fine talking about their new book, but I can’t promise that for next week because well, that would be a lie and that’s going to reach the trust because they’re not on next week. Next week. Uh, it’s up in the air, but trust me, it’ll be just that’s conclusory. Just trust me now, I hope you trust non profit radio I’ll find something good if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com responses by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four

[00:59:48.37] spk_1:
D. Just

[01:00:03.54] spk_0:
Like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Here it is, Jean, go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for July 18, 2022: 600th Show!

 

Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Amy Sample Ward, Gene Takagi, Peter Panepento, & Jagannathan Narayanan: 600th Show!

For this auspicious occasion, we have august personages. My co-host is Claire Meyerhoff. We’ve got live music from Scott Stein. Our contributors, Amy Sample Ward and Gene Takagi are here. Our sponsors, Turn Two Communications and Fourth Dimension Technologies will be dropping in. And we’ll surprise a bunch of folks, The Delightful Dozen. It’s fun and music and celebration. And gratitude.

 

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We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:10.14] spk_0:
Yeah, hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:12.67] spk_1:
non profit

[00:00:13.43] spk_0:
radio big

[00:00:15.13] spk_1:
non profit

[00:00:15.80] spk_2:
ideas for the

[00:00:17.24] spk_1:
Other 95

[00:00:19.94] spk_0:
on

[00:00:20.13] spk_1:
the aptly named host

[00:00:21.94] spk_0:
of

[00:00:22.18] spk_1:
your favorite abdominal

[00:00:24.94] spk_0:
podcast, you

[00:00:25.66] spk_1:
hear the live

[00:00:26.11] spk_0:
music that can

[00:00:27.55] spk_1:
only mean one

[00:00:28.49] spk_0:
thing,

[00:00:31.04] spk_1:
It’s our 600th show and 12th Jubilee

[00:00:34.99] spk_0:
who

[00:00:41.34] spk_1:
you have a listener of the week Tricia Madrid baker when someone posted on an N 10 discussion, what’s your favorite non profit podcast Tricia was quick on the keyboard and posted the first answer. tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:52.46] spk_3:
radio

[00:01:14.34] spk_1:
and her post got the most likes of any of those second rate suggestions that came after. Uh not that it’s a competition but non profit radio did get the most likes, I have to say. And by the way, for those two past guests who stabbed us in the back by naming second rate podcasts, uh you’re banished, you’ll not be back

[00:01:16.74] spk_3:
but

[00:01:32.54] spk_1:
Tricia Madrid baker from a plastic anemia and Mds International Foundation. Thank you. Tricia for loving non profit radio as your favorite podcast for nonprofits, congratulations you are our listener of the week On the 600th show

[00:01:35.34] spk_4:
And also everybody’s answers in the N- 10 forums are all wonderful and appreciated. Tony is being hyperbolic, just making sure people know

[00:01:44.76] spk_0:
that I

[00:02:25.94] spk_1:
should hope they realize that after, after a couple of beats after a couple of beats So for this 600 show or specific occasion we have August personages my Co host is claire Meyerhoff we’ve got live music from scott stein our contributors, Amy sample Ward, who you just heard defending all the second rate podcasts and Gene Takagi are here, our sponsors turn to communications and fourth dimension technologies will be dropping in and we’ll be surprising a bunch of folks, it’s fun, it’s music, it’s celebration and gratitude. So on Tony’s take two, I’m gonna be saying thank you.

[00:02:44.44] spk_3:
We are sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot co visit them at turn hyphen T W O dot C O. We’re also sponsored by fourth dimension technologies I T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits visit tony dot M a slash four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[00:02:58.84] spk_1:
Oh that mellifluous voice. It can only be Claire Meyerhoff. Welcome Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:03:04.24] spk_3:
Hi tony I love doing your spots. I really do because I used to do spots back in the day when I worked in radio and I don’t do them anymore. So when I get one in front of me, I’m just like, oh I get to read a commercial,

[00:03:22.04] spk_1:
I’m very glad I’m glad you’re with us. She is of course non profit radio as creative Producer, declares the president of the planned giving agency request marketing and philanthropy. Communications and the company is at PG agency dot com. So glad to have you. Creative producer. Thanks,

[00:03:43.44] spk_3:
Thank you Tony, I can’t believe this is your 600th show you are the most prolific and amazing podcaster in the history of podcasts. AmY’s writing that down, she’s gonna put that

[00:03:47.71] spk_1:
it’s

[00:04:20.44] spk_3:
true, my world is radio Right, so, so after radio people started doing podcast. So I’ve been paying attention to podcasts over the years, like I read articles about it and stuff and I see how people try to do podcasts and they fail because they get a committee or something like that and they just can’t even do one podcast And you have done 600, you have done two a week For once a week, I’m sorry, once a week, four Every week of the year 50 a year to offer vacation times 12, 600. It’s, it’s actually mind blowing. It blows my mind. I’m no good at math, but I can do this math. And that math adds up to podcast success.

[00:04:29.09] spk_1:
Thank you. Claire R&R 13,000 plus listeners each week. So thank

[00:04:33.65] spk_3:
you. It’s amazing.

[00:04:44.34] spk_1:
It feels terrific. I have to do one a week. Otherwise I’d be undisciplined. We’d be at like show, I don’t know, 226 or something after 12 years, but one a week, it keeps me disciplined. Let’s bring in Scott Stein Scott Welcome. Glad to have you.

[00:04:53.79] spk_5:
Thank you. Great to be here.

[00:05:13.94] spk_1:
Always a pleasure to have you on the, on the milestone show scott is the composer of our theme song, cheap red wine, which we’ll be hearing later. He’s a Brooklyn, new york based pianist, songwriter, arranger, conductor and music director. He’s got a new album coming out imminently. He’s got a new baby that just happened very recently. And you can find all this at scott stein music dot com scott. So glad to have you.

[00:05:33.24] spk_5:
Oh well, always glad to be here. It it feels like the milestone. It’s like it’s a certain type of summer. It’s a certain time of the summer. It’s like, all right, it’s time to do tony show again. Look forward to it every year.

[00:05:34.66] spk_1:
Every july. Thank you. So, tell us about the new baby. I thought I thought the new album was big news until I learned about the new

[00:05:41.29] spk_5:
baby album

[00:05:42.63] spk_1:
is like, uh, you know, the music is important to tell us about the new baby.

[00:06:21.64] spk_5:
Yeah, I won’t try to compare the two. Uh, so we have a little girl named Aviva, she was born about six weeks ago and she’s just, she’s beautiful and she’s growing and she’s just starting to give us smiles and it’s just, it’s awesome. She’s really wonderful. You might, she’s in the other room so you might occasionally hear her. But yeah, it’s, it’s wonderful. And her big brother is we have a three year old named Eli and he’s been awesome and he’s a great big brother. And it’s just, it’s fun. We’re not sleeping a whole lot. That’s the only thing, but that’s sort of to be expected. So it’s all good

[00:06:27.56] spk_4:
baby, like the piano.

[00:06:29.44] spk_5:
Yeah, actually, right before, right before I came on and I had to do a couple of vocal warm ups just to get ready. So I had her in my lap and was just singing and playing and probably here right now

[00:06:39.91] spk_1:
we can hear her. That’s okay. non profit radio we’re family embracing, not just family

[00:06:44.74] spk_5:
friendly but yeah,

[00:06:46.01] spk_1:
anybody could be family friendly. We’re family embracing and pets to

[00:06:56.74] spk_5:
Indeed it was going to say the other day I was home just practicing piano, my wife was holding her and she was asleep and she didn’t wake up until I started, sorry until I took a break from practicing as soon as I started playing again, it lulled her back to sleep. So

[00:07:02.63] spk_1:
magnificent. Alright, alright. And new album coming

[00:07:38.04] spk_5:
up. Yeah, new record is called Uphill. It’s going to be released next month. That’s august the first single which I’m gonna do later in the show is going to be coming out in about two weeks and we’re gonna do a record release show here in Brooklyn where I live through a, an organization called operation gig which sponsors a bunch of outdoor shows throughout the Ditmas Park and Prospect Park south neighborhoods and so we’re part of that. We’re really excited. That’s august 21st and yes, it’s I’m really excited for people to hear this music. It’s, we’ve been working hard at it and it’s finally ready.

[00:07:58.34] spk_1:
Outstanding. Congratulations, mazel tov on uh, on Aviva And the album Uphill all that info is at scott stein music dot com. Let’s bring in Amy Amy and jean Amy our technology and social media. Hello Hello indeed.

[00:08:01.25] spk_4:
Our

[00:08:06.34] spk_1:
technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 where that auspicious podcast poll was taken their most

[00:08:11.16] spk_4:
special, scientifically valid, you know, statistically valid survey of best podcast in the online forum.

[00:08:18.84] spk_1:
Yeah, well, non profit radio is number one. So obviously that’s all

[00:08:21.61] spk_4:
true. That

[00:08:32.84] spk_1:
is that is all true. Uh their most recent co authored book is the tech that comes next and we have to get you on the show to talk about that. It’s been it’s been your lackluster hosts. Uh Remission.

[00:08:34.26] spk_4:
Yeah. You said we couldn’t be on until you read it. So I guess tony this is you admitting you have not yet read the book.

[00:08:41.64] spk_1:
And they’re also at the sample. They’re also at Amy sample ward dot org And at Amy R. S

[00:08:47.72] spk_5:
Ward

[00:09:12.54] spk_1:
and Gene Takagi are legal contributor, Managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco and it’s that wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com. He’s also a part time lecturer at Columbia University. You’ll find his firm at neo law group dot com and he’s at g Tac glad to have you gene wonderful to be

[00:09:13.44] spk_6:
Here. Tony and congrats, that’s an amazing uh feet 600 podcasts and I’ll second clear and say yeah, number one on my list.

[00:09:24.84] spk_1:
Thank you very much. Thank you and Tricia Madrid baker to our our listener of the week. Number one for her. So look at all the number ones we’ve got

[00:09:32.84] spk_6:
just to see if I can get over the week one day as

[00:09:36.09] spk_1:
well,

[00:09:36.56] spk_0:
jean

[00:09:39.93] spk_1:
your listener of the month. You’re on your contributor of the month, listener of the month. Come on. I

[00:09:45.13] spk_3:
mean

[00:09:46.24] spk_1:
your your bona fide, you’re way beyond bona fide.

[00:09:49.24] spk_6:
I’ve been on 13 years. I’ve never been listening for the week. So

[00:09:52.36] spk_4:
jean is hoping you have one of those hallway, you know, things with the little engraved gene really wants one to say 11 week. He was the listener of the week.

[00:10:09.14] spk_1:
Okay, I see the listener of the wall. The wall, but I need to install in my home in my background. Okay.

[00:10:11.05] spk_3:
That’s a little Polaroid picture of jean. Like when I worked at Roy Rogers in high school, they had ranch hand of the month and you had your little Polaroid and your thing and I never became ranch hand of the month.

[00:10:20.14] spk_6:
That’s exactly what I want,

[00:10:27.14] spk_1:
Claire. Hey scott.

[00:10:28.37] spk_3:
We’d we’d

[00:10:31.04] spk_1:
love to have some music. What do you think you do a first do a first song for us from? This is gonna be from Uphill, the new album.

[00:10:51.84] spk_5:
Yeah, this is gonna be the single. Um full disclosure. I think I may have played one or two of the songs that you’re about to hear on the podcast before. So hopefully your audience is okay with a repeat performance. Um I can’t remember if I did this one or not, to be honest. But this is gonna be the single. It’s gonna be out in a couple weeks. It’s called on my way. And sexually the 1st, 1st tune on the record

[00:11:01.64] spk_1:
on my way.

[00:11:07.14] spk_5:
Mm

[00:11:09.84] spk_0:
mhm.

[00:11:40.14] spk_2:
I’m on my way. I could still find my way out of the ordinary. Back into the free. Gonna take some of that comfort, slip out of the step all the way outside my back to push me through the soul.

[00:11:50.04] spk_0:
Okay,

[00:12:15.04] spk_2:
I’m on my way through the storm and the swell as for the destination. It’s too early to tell there in a while and to sell this ain’t a river or trust. Ain’t no grow or treating this like baby. We only do what we must and I cannot stem the time. I can only stand in one

[00:12:18.70] spk_0:
and

[00:12:18.85] spk_2:
then I grab a hold so we won’t put

[00:12:21.62] spk_0:
me under.

[00:12:45.84] spk_2:
I’m breathing different And now we’ve got a swagger in my stride. I’m walking through new Orleans, the mighty river at my side but knew all the smells the scars now in the shaping its form with just the, the rhetoric reminds our of memories of the storm.

[00:13:02.44] spk_0:
Mhm Yes.

[00:13:03.84] spk_2:
Amen.

[00:13:31.04] spk_0:
Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah, gonna take all

[00:13:33.94] spk_2:
that. I take all that. I was

[00:13:36.31] spk_0:
trying to pull

[00:13:39.34] spk_2:
myself together. The right kind of

[00:13:40.43] spk_0:
Barnes,

[00:13:47.84] spk_2:
take all of my love, take all of my sins. Ain’t no use trying to pass up the mess that I

[00:13:50.82] spk_0:
feel,

[00:13:55.34] spk_2:
but I will be back. I will be better be better than I was

[00:14:30.44] spk_0:
the day before. Mhm. Mhm Yeah, beautiful scott.

[00:14:34.64] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Swagger in my stride.

[00:14:36.45] spk_5:
That’s terrific.

[00:15:05.64] spk_1:
Alright, alright. We’ve got more music coming from uh from scott’s gonna play a couple more tunes for us, including of course, the the ultimate theme, the theme song, cheap red wine coming up, coming up later to thank you scott. Cool. So clara like so claire a

[00:15:07.17] spk_3:
mute myself.

[00:15:14.64] spk_1:
Thank you for your thoughtful, thoughtful. But for words about the 600th show,

[00:15:57.24] spk_3:
The 600 show is amazing and you’ve had so many guests on over the years and I thought that I would do something in honor of this jubilee and create something called the delightful dozen for your dozen years Now. I haven’t now I have an official unofficial theme song. The delightful doesn’t are kind of just, you know, 12 people that I asked Tony to, to think of who were really truly delightful, dynamic, wonderful guests. And we wanted to highlight them on this 12th jubilee. And I’m really digging the word jubilee. So delightful dozen,

[00:15:59.69] spk_1:
anybody can

[00:16:03.34] spk_3:
have an anniversary, anybody but a jubilee. And you know, the Queen, they just stole that from you over and you in England

[00:16:08.22] spk_1:
Queen. Yeah, she she counts to.

[00:16:11.34] spk_3:
She borrowed your idea. So yeah, we

[00:16:14.59] spk_1:
don’t have a podcast. Queen doesn’t have a podcast.

[00:16:16.56] spk_3:
No, not that we know of

[00:16:18.34] spk_1:
she Exactly, there’s her problem. She’s got no marketing,

[00:16:51.14] spk_3:
no market so so well, well well talk about these delightful people over the course of the show. So here are our first three of the delightful dozen. So this is the first quarter of the delightful dozen. And our first delightful dozen designate is Cheryl McCormick who is the Ceo of the Athens Area Humane Society and she is a delightful dozen member, our inaugural member and tony Why did Cheryl make the delightful dozen?

[00:17:39.14] spk_1:
Cheryl McCormick has been a fan of nonprofit radio for many, many years in the early years she used to send me messages on twitter and facebook commenting on the show years ago she did a blog post where she listed um you know, recommended podcasts, She put non profit radio at the top of her list and she was the first blogger to do that, you know, uh gratefully, thankfully, you know the show has been on many lists through the years, but she was the first person to do that. Um, so you know just long term, long term loyal fan. Um I have my plan giving accelerator and she was the first person to join the first class.

[00:17:45.94] spk_5:
She

[00:18:08.04] spk_1:
was the first member of the first class of plan giving accelerator. I was grateful for that was very uh significant, you know moving that that she believed in what the course was gonna be about. I haven’t done one yet. And the course has turned out very, very well but so she’s been a longtime fan and uh that’s why I’m grateful to Cheryl McCormick and that’s why she belongs in the delightful dozen.

[00:18:38.74] spk_3:
Thank you Cheryl for being part of our delightful dozen here tony-martignetti non profit radio So the next member being inaugurated or whatever and welcomed into the class of the delightful dozen. We have a woman named Barbara Newhouse and Barbara is the current Ceo of the southeast texas food bank which is an amazing organization and so important these days especially but Barbara when she was on the show, she was the Ceo of the A. L. S association and she was involved in an extremely high profile nonprofit fundraising activity that goes down in history. tony tell us what that was.

[00:18:56.44] spk_1:
That was the ice bucket challenge and I was so excited to get her on the show. The ice bucket challenge was during the summer of 2014. So we’re going back a few years but its legendary

[00:19:03.61] spk_4:
years ago already.

[00:19:05.39] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:19:06.37] spk_4:
what is time talking

[00:19:08.99] spk_3:
about it? People are still talking about it, they’re like how can we do something like the ice bucket challenge clients that like

[00:19:14.72] spk_1:
it was organic,

[00:19:16.06] spk_3:
it’s lightning in a bottle

[00:20:42.54] spk_1:
right. And that was, that was the summer of 2014, it wrapped up right around labor day of 2014 and then on the october 6th show we got Barbara Newhouse the Ceo of the A. L. S. Society, which was the The beneficiary of 120 850 million. The numbers seem to vary a little bit, but a ton of money came in over 68 weeks. They were overwhelmed and we got to talk to Barbara Newhouse, the Ceo about how it originated. And you know, it was it was purely organic. It came from three three three Service 3 folks with with A. L. S. In their family or or they themselves are patients and it was just purely organic. Uh and then what they were going to do with the money and how they were going to decide what to do with the money. And did that show that october Uh for 2014 show at the Chronicle of Philanthropy Offices. Um So we shared the interview with them, but they let me do it on the podcast and then they hosted it on their site and it was just very, very much upbeat uh moment for nonprofit radio to get Barbara Newhouse, just a couple of weeks after this all had this all had broken and to do it in the Chronicle of philanthropy Office was terrific. Yes.

[00:20:46.04] spk_3:
So Barbara Newhouse, thank you for letting us designate you one of the delightful dozen of tony-martignetti

[00:20:52.57] spk_1:
we’ll

[00:20:52.80] spk_3:
send you a plaque or something. I don’t know, maybe

[00:20:54.99] spk_1:
not

[00:21:03.24] spk_3:
let’s not get carried away. You might get like a sticker. Okay, so the third person we’re going to talk about who we’re going to um bring into our cone of silence or whatever is not a cone of silence of

[00:21:11.74] spk_1:
it’s

[00:21:13.35] spk_3:
a basket of fabulousness. I don’t know what it is, but it’s called the delightful dozen and it’s Tony’s delightful dozen people. And so the third one we’re going to bring in is the editor of the Chronicle of philanthropy, Stacy palmer. So tony tell us why is Stacy a member of the delightful dozen?

[00:22:24.74] spk_1:
Well, because she was amenable to what I just talked about the that sharing of that interview in 2014. She’s been a guest on the show a bunch of times, most recently, just a couple of weeks ago, I think like, 33 weeks ago. because the Chronicle of philanthropy is transitioning to nonprofit status, which is enormous. Going from privately held to from privately held. They’re owned by the Chronicle of Higher Education. Now they’re going from privately held to nonprofit status. They have not gotten their approval from the I. R. S. Yet. But they have Made their 1023 application. So that’s huge and she’s been on the show a couple of other times. And then in addition to that, uh she gave me an opportunity years ago to host for the Chronicle. The another podcast uh fundraising fundamentals.

[00:22:27.34] spk_5:
And

[00:22:27.57] spk_1:
that was that was different. That was strictly fundraising

[00:22:30.82] spk_3:
short

[00:22:37.64] spk_1:
Form, nothing more than 12 minutes. Most of the interviews were like 10, 8, 10 minutes uh

[00:22:38.27] spk_3:
quick 12,

[00:22:38.96] spk_1:
three. What can we learn? And I did that for four or 4.5 years with the

[00:22:43.75] spk_3:
Chronicle

[00:22:45.04] spk_1:
hosting that uh, for them. And so I’m grateful to Stacy Palmer and that’s why she belongs in the delightful dozen. So there you go.

[00:22:53.83] spk_3:
And that is the first three members of our class of the 2022 Tony-Martignetti delightful dozen.

[00:23:01.44] spk_1:
And

[00:23:02.56] spk_3:
we’ll have more later. Stay tuned.

[00:23:12.24] spk_1:
We absolutely will. And it’s my pleasure to bring in one of our, one of our sponsors. Peter Pan a

[00:23:15.94] spk_0:
pinto. Good

[00:23:16.71] spk_7:
day everyone. How are you?

[00:23:20.14] spk_1:
Hello Peter.

[00:23:20.91] spk_3:
Hi Peter.

[00:23:27.64] spk_1:
We were just talking about fundraising fundamentals on the Chronicle of philanthropy and uh, and how Stacy palmer was important to that and uh, and you were to Peter in in making that happen.

[00:23:33.47] spk_7:
Yeah, that was our first joint effort way back in the day. tony when we worked on that.

[00:24:05.54] spk_1:
Indeed, indeed. Um, so I invited Peter to come of course because turned to communications of which he is one of the partners is a sponsor of nonprofit radio has been for several years and Peter, you know, I’m grateful. I’m grateful for the support that that you and your partner scott give to the nonprofit radio So thank you. I want to have you on to say thank you for your many years, sponsorship.

[00:24:08.42] spk_7:
Thank you were big supporters of the work you do and

[00:24:13.64] spk_1:
past

[00:24:27.44] spk_7:
building you provide to the non community through this program and through so much of the other work you do to tony uh, you really do a really important service grazers and nonprofit Urz especially those that smaller organizations that don’t have access to a lot of the resources that a lot of us do.

[00:24:34.64] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you. Peter. Your, your audio is breaking up a little bit. So I’m gonna suggest you turn off your video. I’m

[00:24:40.76] spk_7:
gonna turn my video off and as I do that, I’m going to move to a better location. Okay.

[00:24:56.44] spk_1:
Because I don’t want you to be breaking up as you as you remind folks, uh, as I do each week, but now we’re gonna hear it from one of the partners. I’m just a lackluster host of the number one podcast, but still black Western. Um, so as you, you know, remind folks what, what turned to communications is all about for nonprofits. Please

[00:25:36.44] spk_7:
Sure. We are a full service communications and pr agency that specializes in working with non profits and foundations. Uh, it started from my work prior to going into consulting as a journalist where I spent a number of years at the Chronicle philanthropy, really getting to know the field. Uh, and starting to really understand the best practices and communications and pr and have taken the lessons we’ve learned there along with the the years that we’ve now been working with um nonprofits and thought leaders and uh, and foundations across the sector and apply it to the work we do today.

[00:25:43.34] spk_1:
You do a lot of work with community foundations, don’t you?

[00:26:18.94] spk_7:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s a really central part of our business. We um, we provide support to a group called the Community Foundation awareness Initiative, which is a coalition of about 100 and 50 community foundations that we provide strategic support to. And we’ve really built a community of practice among communicators at community foundations where we bring them together. We um, we provide them with resources and training and we provide a forum for um communications professionals to talk to each other and learn from each other. So that has been a really interesting direction of our work and it helps inform a lot of what we do. Now,

[00:26:42.94] spk_1:
you’ve had some valuable recommendations to in in crises for local community foundations. That’s I’ve found that very helpful. After the, you’ve all day shooting in texas, I was very happy to send out. You recommended the san Antonio area Community Foundation. That’s right, yeah. We

[00:27:04.34] spk_7:
really, we really leverage that network and try to find ways to leverage our own network to communicate about how folks can help in in response to disasters, but also how they can support each other and and and help and grow the field in a larger way. And I really appreciate when when folks with platforms like you see the work that we’re doing and the work that these organizations are doing and help amplify that message. That’s that’s the best possible outcome.

[00:27:23.64] spk_1:
Oh, it was, it was a pleasure. And uh, peter I want to thank you again for, for the turn to support of non profit radio for your kind words. Thanks very much for joining, joining today. We really appreciate it.

[00:27:25.40] spk_7:
Thank you so much. Great to see you all.

[00:27:32.14] spk_3:
Wonderful, Great guy,

[00:28:07.44] spk_1:
very grateful. Yes. Um, and which leads me to, uh, more, uh, More formal expression of gratitude and it’s time for Tony’s take two and I have to say thank you, thank you. Um, it’s hard to identify, you know, who you think first, I guess I guess listeners, you know, if it wasn’t for 13,000 listeners a week in in small and mid size shops, which are the, the ones that we all here today and all the guests that I’ve had through the years. I want to support? You know, um, I knew I was gonna get misty,

[00:28:12.32] spk_3:
you

[00:28:42.84] spk_1:
know, I, I channel II channel our listeners can be a heart. I channel our listeners. You know, what do I think you would ask if you were in the conversation, What do I think is most valuable to you to know to take away from this guest, whether it’s uh, you know, discussion points for, for your, your, your team or for your ceo or for your board to act on. I get a lot of comments, you know, I brought this to my board for discussion and, you know, in that that’s, uh, to me that’s a Grand Slam. Uh, I’m not capable of going any further. That’s Grand Slam is all I know about football. I’m not very good at sports. So,

[00:28:53.02] spk_0:
uh,

[00:29:35.54] spk_1:
but you know, I’m channeling the listeners. I’m grateful to all of you folks who have listened and and do listen. And of course, everybody who supports the show. Everybody here today Claire scott, Amy jean. Um, you know, our our longtime longtime contributors, I’ve got more to say about Gene and Amy later on, so, uh, but grateful at this point. Just a lot of things going out, a lot of gratitude to our listeners, to everybody who supports the show and who has supported, you know, through Through 12 years. You know, I’m Ready to do another 12. We’re not we’re not stopping

[00:30:51.84] spk_4:
tony Can I add like a tiny Sprinkle of love on top of your big love sunday for your listeners. I’m trying to come up with a metaphor there. Um, you know, I we, at n 10, of course, like a whole community of people learning about technology, but so obviously it’s a biased view, but I don’t care and don’t pretend that it’s not biased, but there’s so many people and so many institutions that those people are in, and then so many other factors like The perception or the positioning with funders or whatever else that constantly tells folks in our sector, you’re supposed to already be the expert and like heaven forbid you admit you’re not, you know, so for 13,000 people to say actually I’m gonna learn something by listening to this show for 12 years, right? Like I just want folks to really appreciate in themselves that they are not buying into all of that noise that like they already know everything there already the expert. Like there’s nothing more to learn. Like there’s so much more to learn and we actually do better when we learn together in conversation or in practice. And I appreciate that for 12 years you’ve created space for that learning to happen. But also that 13,000 people were like, yeah, I have more to learn. You know, that’s really important for our sector.

[00:31:13.64] spk_1:
Thank you amy. Thank you. I’m gonna let him have the last word. That is Tony’s take that is Tony’s take two scott stein’s got some more music for us.

[00:31:53.34] spk_5:
Yeah, I do. Um I thought I would do the title track from the new record. So this is the song is called Uphill and it’s simply about kind of climbing out from from something and getting uphill and trying to trying to stay up there, which feels like kind of where we’re all at right now, we’re particularly with the pandemic and everything else that’s happening and so um like, like a lot of work, the song takes on multiple meanings or it takes on different meanings, you know, for for different people. So anyway, that’s this one.

[00:32:04.84] spk_0:
Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:32:12.64] spk_2:
Lying

[00:32:13.20] spk_0:
here have weighed the while, nothing in the

[00:32:16.84] spk_2:
attack. It’s only the caffeine in my system. I think another night, another week, another

[00:32:23.64] spk_0:
month

[00:32:25.65] spk_2:
we go up

[00:32:29.94] spk_0:
again and roll

[00:32:32.62] spk_2:
like a wave a button up over the

[00:32:34.97] spk_0:
shore, sleep

[00:32:36.69] spk_2:
like a letter. Someone slid under the door. I know better days are coming though. I couldn’t tell you all

[00:32:43.67] spk_0:
that

[00:32:49.24] spk_2:
again. I will go up

[00:32:56.24] spk_0:
again. Years

[00:32:59.11] spk_2:
of living in my bows. It’s carved into my

[00:33:02.05] spk_0:
face

[00:33:06.14] spk_2:
if there is itself in my room and takes up all the space.

[00:33:32.44] spk_0:
Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Mhm. Fighting off

[00:33:33.29] spk_2:
the DM It’s like a boxer in the

[00:33:35.74] spk_0:
ring. I hear the

[00:33:37.26] spk_2:
interest in my corner, but I cannot see a thing. I’ll take it one day at a time I’m taking it on the chin

[00:33:45.46] spk_0:
and I will go

[00:33:49.94] spk_2:
up trying to catch a train. That’s always

[00:33:54.21] spk_0:
the first step ahead sweating

[00:34:09.04] spk_2:
And up straight and then I’ll fall back into bed and then wake up from the dream and take a breath and count to 10. I will go up

[00:34:11.34] spk_0:
again,

[00:34:26.34] spk_2:
lie here forgiveness in your voice as a reason. Life sounded like music that only you and

[00:34:56.74] spk_0:
Mhm and open to the grief from open to the sorrow

[00:35:01.09] spk_2:
and opened up the chairs that I’m gonna stumble down tomorrow, even if nobody knows when the rain will

[00:35:09.15] spk_0:
be, I will

[00:35:13.74] spk_2:
again, ready for the downpour and let it overflow my

[00:35:16.81] spk_0:
cup. I’ll be

[00:35:18.13] spk_2:
ready for the sunshine for whenever it shows up. I know better days are coming though. I don’t know when,

[00:35:26.48] spk_0:
but

[00:35:34.64] spk_2:
I will go up again. I will go up will again. I will go

[00:35:54.94] spk_1:
thank you scott. Uphill title cut the album coming up next month, August 22, is that

[00:35:59.80] spk_5:
21st

[00:36:05.13] spk_1:
August 21? I gave you an extra day. Well you have an extra day just in case one more day after a year makes a difference.

[00:36:07.09] spk_5:
Yeah, well the show will be the 21st and uh I might I might put it online a few days before that. But next month. So for sure,

[00:36:47.93] spk_1:
Uphill the album coming August 21, congratulations. Thank you. Thanks a lot Scott. I had the opportunity to have a chat with our our other sponsor of the Ceo jug in at fourth dimension Technologies. They’re based in India. So they’re all sleeping right now while we are chatting here pleasantly. So I met jargon in new york city and I’m gonna play that that that that chat uh right now, here it is.

[00:36:54.23] spk_8:
I’m

[00:36:54.58] spk_1:
with jug in the Ceo of fourth dimension technologies. We all know it as four D. Of course.

[00:37:01.53] spk_8:
Um

[00:37:03.23] spk_1:
we couldn’t arrange to talk on the

[00:37:06.68] spk_8:
Uh at the six

[00:37:07.69] spk_1:
10th show with him live

[00:37:09.46] spk_8:
because he’s

[00:37:10.45] spk_1:
a couple hours

[00:37:12.33] spk_8:
away so

[00:37:13.02] spk_1:
we’re meeting in Moynihan train hall in new york city so you may hear some train announcements in the

[00:37:17.98] spk_8:
background.

[00:37:19.13] spk_1:
Um that’s where he and I are talking and joking, welcome to non profit radio 600 show and thank you so much for being a

[00:37:35.53] spk_8:
sponsor. Thank you tony and thank you for having us as a sponsor. It’s wonderful to be here and excellent to meet meet in person after almost two years.

[00:37:38.57] spk_1:
Yeah it’s a pleasure,

[00:37:40.98] spk_8:
absolute pleasure.

[00:37:41.87] spk_1:
So uh this is a chance for you to acquaint our listeners

[00:37:47.97] spk_0:
with four

[00:37:50.08] spk_1:
D. And with I. T. Info in a

[00:37:51.75] spk_8:
box. So folks

[00:37:55.03] spk_1:
have been hearing me talk about the the I. T. In. For in a box

[00:37:56.87] spk_8:
but we’ll

[00:37:57.87] spk_1:
get there. But first you know just acquaint us with with four D. From the ceo

[00:38:45.02] spk_8:
perspective. So let me tell you what, I think that it’s got a long history close to 30 plus years old. That’s pretty long and being in the I. T. Infrastructure space all through when I mean the infra basically we’re talking about everything that involves with hardware which is like compute storage network, the list is long, you have backup, you have disaster recovery business continuity, you have the operating systems, you have the security aspects of it. So we pretty much covered the entire gamut of I. T. Infrastructure and without 30 years of experience I think we can claim to have fairly reasonable good knowledge on all these pillars and

[00:38:45.34] spk_1:
these are all aspects of the I. T. Infra in a

[00:38:48.71] spk_8:
box that

[00:38:50.28] spk_1:
that folks can choose

[00:39:13.62] spk_8:
From absolutely what we do, what we’ve done is we’ve actually boxed are 30 years experience in the industry to provide affordable solutions for nonprofits. Okay. So what we are essentially trying to provide nonprofits is being able to have the entire idea of theirs in one single interface. Okay. They can of course they have the option of picking and choosing what they want but all of this available as a single and also as a service, which means they pay for it as the use, that’s what we’re trying to send to them.

[00:39:28.72] spk_1:
You’re sensitive to the fact that non profits are operating on,

[00:39:30.82] spk_8:
you know,

[00:39:31.17] spk_1:
often small

[00:40:00.91] spk_8:
budgets. 100%. No question about it. We understand we work with nonprofits, we understand how tight budgeted they are. We’ve also seen how nonprofits have evolved with time there was a time there, they were focusing only on things like getting the donation and executing projects but today time has come where technology has become very crucial for not just survival but for their growth as well. Okay, so we feel that technology is going forward is going to play a very major part function for any organization, let alone non profit everybody, there’s

[00:40:06.07] spk_1:
no more index

[00:40:06.67] spk_8:
cards, everybody’s

[00:40:08.31] spk_1:
every

[00:40:08.66] spk_8:
person,

[00:40:09.91] spk_1:
not even not only the I. T.

[00:40:11.10] spk_8:
Director, I mean

[00:40:12.02] spk_1:
everyone of course is using technology in their work

[00:40:37.81] spk_8:
and we understand the need for, especially for nonprofits to work with tight budgets. So which is why when we start looking at it, we’ve kind of made it a very cost effective model for them. I’m sure they will see the cost effectiveness in the whole process, which we also feel is probably our way of giving back in some sense in some sense, okay. Because we’re not going to be looking at purely market rates in this model, but we think there is an option to do that. But we also want to make it easy, elegant and simple for them to use, that’s the idea

[00:40:44.94] spk_1:
and there is a large U. S. Nonprofit you’re working with

[00:41:46.41] spk_8:
now. Oh yes, we do. That’s, that’s our first experience with nonprofits. It’s not just its us based, but it’s an international organization. They have presents, not only the U. S. They have presence in Japan Korea, parts of europe India all over and it’s a huge impact. So when we, when we actually got into that organization, I think they were, they had a lot of I. T, let’s say components in this actually bought a lot of things. But I think what has happened this over a period of time, they’re all desperate components of the bottle is not integrated into one solution for them. So when we got in, we realized that there are lots of things, which they were about dead bought, they were not using and some of them they could have used it better. So we started optimizing the whole thing today we wrote something to the cloud, something in the data center and stuff like that and today they are in a position actually a very stable idea. Environment is what they have And then we also manage it for them. 24,

[00:41:50.49] spk_1:
that’s I. T. N. I. T. In. For in a box available if they’re not using that. Exactly.

[00:41:57.32] spk_8:
But all

[00:41:58.30] spk_1:
these competencies that

[00:41:59.34] spk_8:
you’re describing are

[00:42:00.56] spk_1:
in the I. T. In for in a

[00:42:27.10] spk_8:
box. So using all the confidence of I. T. In the box. Ah we didn’t start off with I. D. In front of box for them. We started off with support for them but I think it evolved into something where we felt that when we put it into a complete integrated component it can really help a lot of these nonprofits irrespective of the size. Okay Irrespective of size. Excellent. Alright, thank

[00:42:30.30] spk_1:
you very much. Pleasure to meet you and uh new york city Moynihan train hall and thank you again for your your sponsorship of non profit

[00:42:46.20] spk_8:
radio thank you and thank you. Thank you Tony. Thank you Tony for giving us this opportunity. We’re really hoping that this will give us an opportunity to be of service the non problems. That’s the way we look at it from our perspective. Terrific. Thank you so much.

[00:42:47.42] spk_1:
My pleasure thank you.

[00:42:48.50] spk_8:
My pleasure. Thank you.

[00:42:52.50] spk_5:
That’s so fun that you met in the new Moynihan train hall out of penn station.

[00:42:56.52] spk_1:
It’s beautiful. Have have you seen, have you seen the train hall yet?

[00:42:59.82] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s great. It’s really, it’s, it’s almost unrecognizable from what we think of as penn station. Maybe something closer to what the what the old penn station from way back to the

[00:43:12.42] spk_3:
old beautiful one.

[00:43:13.48] spk_5:
Yeah. Trying to get a little bit of that back.

[00:43:16.07] spk_1:
Has anybody else been there?

[00:43:17.32] spk_3:
I have been there and I grew up on Long Island so I’m very familiar with penn station which you know for years. And then the first time I had a friend in Westchester and I went to Grand Central Station, I was like that’s their train station, Wait a minute, kids from Westchester get this train station kids from Long Island at this train station. So I’m very excited about the Moynihan train station.

[00:43:39.80] spk_1:
The old Long Island Railroad was underground. I mean the station was underground

[00:43:41.81] spk_3:
station

[00:43:42.72] spk_1:
was underground, had no windows

[00:43:44.21] spk_3:
low ceilings.

[00:43:45.68] spk_1:
Remember it from when you lived in the city?

[00:43:48.02] spk_4:
Yes, for sure.

[00:43:50.10] spk_1:
Not at all.

[00:43:51.60] spk_5:
It’s a notch above Ports authority, but

[00:44:02.19] spk_4:
you still have the same sense of like if you don’t have to stop and ask for directions and you just know I’m gonna go, I’m gonna pass to, I’m gonna turn left and then I’m gonna go where I need to go. Then you’re like a real new yorker, you didn’t have to, you know like you knew the map in your head, but you don’t want to know the map in your head. Like it’s not an achievement to know it, you know, you gladly forget it. Yeah,

[00:44:22.39] spk_5:
it’s an achievement to basically spend as little time in the station as possible,

[00:44:26.69] spk_4:
right?

[00:44:27.79] spk_1:
Yeah, that was never a welcoming space.

[00:44:30.05] spk_3:
No. And sometimes you’d actually see like you’d see long island celebrities in, in, you know, sort of like many celebrities like islander players or you know baseball players or whatever. And you see you see them in Penn station and they just kind of standing there. I saw jim palmer once, if you remember the handsome baseball players from the Orioles, he was, I saw him once in Penn station. He

[00:44:48.31] spk_1:
was the quarterback, wasn’t, he

[00:44:49.57] spk_3:
was the quarterback of the Orioles. Exactly. And I once saw Billy Joel and penn station. So that’s like the ultimate to before Long Island and see Billy Joel in Penn station with a few friends because probably that was just maybe for whatever he was doing, that was the easiest way to get home.

[00:45:08.39] spk_5:
But this is the guy who he like takes a private helicopter to Madison Square garden gigs

[00:45:13.04] spk_0:
long before

[00:45:14.36] spk_5:
that. I was gonna say, I don’t think he’s taking the Long Island rail road.

[00:45:16.62] spk_3:
I’m on the higher end of the higher end of the age spectrum at this point. And so this was probably maybe like 1979 or something

[00:45:34.79] spk_1:
new york now has a, has a very fitting train train hall. It’s not, it’s not even Moynihan train station, but it’s like the difference between an anniversary and a jubilee, they don’t have a train hall, they don’t have a train station, you know, any town could have a station or, or a terminal, they have a train haul a train hall in new york, Moynihan train hall. So

[00:45:44.69] spk_4:
grand. It’s grand in that way.

[00:45:55.49] spk_1:
It’s like, like the, like the jubilee, like the jubilee. Um so um, how about a little more delightful dozen.

[00:45:58.12] spk_3:
Oh, I do have some more members of the delightful, doesn’t know

[00:46:00.92] spk_1:
what a surprise

[00:46:02.18] spk_3:
surprise, what a surprise. Well, I think, I think the next person I’d like to mention is a really cool lady who I’ve met before and her name is Regina Walton, tony Tell us about Regina.

[00:46:11.45] spk_1:
Regina, I love Regina. She was

[00:46:14.58] spk_3:
the

[00:46:45.28] spk_1:
first social media manager for nonprofit radio So she had been the social manager for my company. I know, maybe not. No, no, I take that back when I started the show in july 2010, I knew I needed help promoting and uh, and I brought Regina on board and she was the social manager for the first three or so years of the show got, got me launched, you know when I didn’t know what twitter was, she knew to get at tony-martignetti uh through the years when I didn’t know what gmail was, she knew to reserve tony-martignetti at gmail dot com,

[00:46:51.58] spk_3:
which I’ve always been

[00:47:06.78] spk_1:
Grateful for because I wouldn’t know, you know, I’d be using, I’d be using Tony-Martignetti 12 now or something at gmail. So she knew, she knew, she knew she was on a game. Regina Walton, very fond memories of the shows for and my first social manager, Regina Walton certainly belongs in that delightful dozen.

[00:47:15.08] spk_3:
Congratulations to Regina and our next member of the delightful dozen is Edgar Villanueva. He’s the author of de colonizing wealth and he heads up something called the de con de colonizing wealth project, which supports social movement and racial healing. So he’s obviously a great guy. Tell us about Edgar.

[00:47:40.58] spk_1:
It was terrific. Um very proud of his heritage. He’s a lumbee, one of the the native american tribes in north Carolina, which I have a home near the lumbee river. So he and I chatted about

[00:47:47.61] spk_3:
that in

[00:49:08.17] spk_1:
lambert exactly in Lumberton north Carolina and maybe it’s just the Lumberton Lumberton river. But lumbee certainly from that area, very smart guy. His book is de colonizing wealth and he leads the de colonizing wealth project. Um he was first on the show November 30, 2018 but I’ve replayed it many times and I’m seriously thinking about using his show to replace my annual replay of a show called zombie loyalists, which was with Peter shankman wrote a book about marketing and how to make people your zombie loyalists so that they do all your marketing and your promotion for you and they are zombies to your to your cause or your work. Um and I’ve played that many times in december but I think um I think I’m gonna replay it feels more, you know, uh promotion and and marketing have their place of course, but the colonizing wealth seems uh seems a little more move of the moment to me. So I think each december I’m gonna replay Edgar’s interview from from 2018 about about his book, the colonizing wealth. So he’ll be an annual replay and uh absolutely belongs in the among the delightful dozen.

[00:49:12.27] spk_0:
His book is

[00:49:13.26] spk_1:
a must read. I’m sorry jean go ahead. His

[00:49:30.27] spk_6:
book is a must read for anybody looking at social justice and racial justice issues and that is a must read book and I had the pleasure of listening to Edgar in Oxford of all places. Um and just a wonderful speaker and one wonderful presenter, a wonderful thought leader on on all of these topics. So I’m glad to hear he’s gonna be uh

[00:49:42.97] spk_0:
in in in the

[00:49:44.57] spk_1:
Edgar. Edgar. Edgar Villanueva, Yes, Wonderful that he got invited to speak at Oxford outstanding. Their their speaker series is preeminent.

[00:49:54.97] spk_3:
Wonderful. So our next person up is Beth Kanter who doesn’t know and love Beth Kanter. tony why is she in the delightful dozen.

[00:50:05.56] spk_1:
The only guest to say fuck on. non profit radio

[00:50:08.78] spk_3:
Well you just said it

[00:50:10.26] spk_1:
well, she was the first person.

[00:50:12.09] spk_4:
tony is not a guest. He’s not

[00:50:14.07] spk_1:
a guest. That’s true, that’s right, thank you for saving me. Yes, my statement rings, my statement rings true,

[00:50:20.40] spk_3:
but now I’m a guest host, I just I just

[00:50:23.25] spk_4:
producer, I’m

[00:50:24.92] spk_3:
not gonna do it, but we don’t really

[00:50:27.36] spk_1:
twice in one, twice in one show she

[00:50:29.48] spk_3:
said

[00:50:34.16] spk_1:
yes, she was referring to a cause I think was it fun sharks or something like

[00:50:35.79] spk_3:
that.

[00:51:10.06] spk_1:
But she’s been on the show many times, talking about her books uh you know, people think of her as a technologist, but she’s also very concerned about wellness and and the the whole person bringing your whole person to work. Um Her most recent book is with with Allison Fine, the smart non profit which is another duo that I need to have on the show very soon along with Amy sample ward and uh and their co author, that’s why the host is lackluster, but it’s coming, it’s coming. So Beth and Beth and Allison will be on soon but Beth longtime supporter of the show many time, many time guests and she has that distinction for

[00:51:23.06] spk_0:
her

[00:51:24.16] spk_4:
and love out to Beth who in a couple months ago finished her six years on the N 10 board,

[00:51:33.86] spk_3:
thank you for your service.

[00:51:36.65] spk_1:
Very important.

[00:51:57.16] spk_3:
Cantor, thank you for being in the delightful dozen, which leads us to our next member of the delightful dozen whose book, Beth Kanter wrote the forward for. And that book is Bitcoin and the future of fundraising. And the author of that is our next member of the delightful dozen. And he is Jason shim another

[00:51:58.56] spk_1:
Delightful Guest. Yes, I remember the N 10 board. Right

[00:52:02.02] spk_4:
amy, he was on the same terms as that. So he and yeah, he invest just turned off

[00:52:59.75] spk_1:
All right, service on the N- 10 board belongs in a delightful dozen because he’s he’s such a generous supporter of the show when, when, when he’s on he rises above other folks in terms of uh, most other folks, uh in terms of promotion and just sharing the show and uh, he’s a delight and he’s always he’s got very practical uh grounded suggestions. But he also can look at the 30,000 ft view, you know, in that book, Bitcoin in the future of fundraising, you know, also able to look ahead. Um, and I should also just shout out pathways to education Canada where he is the IT Director, director of technology perhaps, but he’s a muckety muck. Education. Canada leave it at that

[00:53:02.41] spk_4:
parental leave right now

[00:53:04.31] spk_1:
on parental leave to have a child. They had a

[00:53:11.85] spk_4:
child. Yeah, he and his partner had a child in, she was born in december,

[00:53:14.85] spk_1:
wonderful. Yes.

[00:53:27.05] spk_4:
Canada, you know, Canada actually cares for its people. And so they have parental leave for a very long time. All

[00:53:27.28] spk_1:
right. thank you Claire we will

[00:53:28.95] spk_3:
And let’s we have we have one more quick one. Let’s do Sam Liebowitz, Sam

[00:53:41.05] spk_1:
sam the producer, the line producer of the show. He had the studio in new york city, I was with him for three different studios in new york city. He had trouble paying his rent. No, he uh

[00:53:50.04] spk_3:
different

[00:53:52.12] spk_0:
uh

[00:54:46.34] spk_1:
everybody in new york city has trouble paying the rent now he moved around lisa’s ended but he got better deals. Um but yeah, Sam Liebowitz, very special place for nonprofit radio and for me um he gave me a spot on the show, gave me a spot on his online network when non profit radio was brand new. All of you may remember that was friday at one o’clock friday one PM We used to do our our show live and it was livestreamed of course SAM managed not only the production of the logistics of getting folks on the call and what to do when the call drops and how to get them back on, but also managed to live stream, which was going out and then he did facebook live streaming for the show and and I learned from SAM that a a minute when you have to fill it can feel like a day,

[00:54:48.23] spk_4:
but

[00:54:59.84] spk_1:
An hour show flies like two minutes. So Sam Liebowitz a special place in my heart and non profit radios heart for for sam, thank you Claire,

[00:55:01.94] spk_3:
thank you very, very much.

[00:55:08.64] spk_1:
Thanks and we’ll be revisiting one more time. Delightful doesn’t but scott. Uh scott is gonna play that’s gonna play cheap red wine I believe I hope.

[00:55:38.74] spk_5:
Yeah. And just want to say real quick tony It’s such a pleasure to be here. And uh this it all started from you licensed this song to use cheap red wine as the walk in music as it were. And uh it’s just been so fun to have this continuing work relationship and and so and thank you for you know picking my music and enjoying it. So pleasure, pleasure to be here. So

[00:55:40.09] spk_1:
it was my pleasure scott.

[00:55:48.74] spk_0:
Mhm

[00:56:01.33] spk_2:
Baby just came up talking sooner or later. I’ll figure out just to watch your

[00:56:08.63] spk_0:
head. You’re

[00:56:25.83] spk_2:
seeking romantic advice from my bill when I’m looking for answers up on a tv screen and we care to be a nothing we can tell our ups from our downs, we’re disappointed in each other. Tell me baby ain’t this love that we found

[00:56:32.53] spk_0:
you

[00:57:15.33] spk_2:
know, you used to find me charming but I can’t figure out how and you said you thought I was handsome but doesn’t matter now so keep falling from a punch hands as long as you’re time poor allowed cause I’ve got a rapid promises, a bottle of cheap wine now, you know some girls are just living diamonds, they were on top of the cut of clothing that are way not to go to work for the good stuff. You’re too easily to strike to take care. Well, I ain’t got too many options. So I’m gonna do the best that I

[00:57:19.99] spk_0:
can.

[00:57:31.83] spk_2:
Well maybe you’ll have some competition one day when I’m a wealthier man. You know, you used to find me charming, but I can’t figure out how. And you said you thought it was handsome, but it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling from a punch on. As long as your time will allow. Because I’ve got arrested promises by legit a while now.

[00:57:52.23] spk_0:
Oh,

[00:58:15.72] spk_2:
hey baby, let’s raise our glasses, take a drink the better days. The other people can kiss our ass’s because they don’t like the things you sing and the heavens that I won’t flashing victory signs because we’re perfect for each other. As long as we have nobody else in mind, nobody is waiting.

[00:58:43.52] spk_0:
Mhm Whoa, whoa. Yeah. You know, you

[00:58:45.91] spk_2:
used to find me charming, but I can’t figure out how you said your father’s hands and never mind it. Don’t matter

[00:58:52.87] spk_0:
now. So keep

[00:58:53.83] spk_2:
falling from my Puncheon’s. As long as your time will allow because I’ve got her any promises about the cheaper and whatever.

[00:59:06.82] spk_0:
Mhm

[00:59:11.62] spk_2:
cheap and whatever. Oh

[00:59:46.82] spk_0:
yeah. Okay. Mhm Mhm

[00:59:57.82] spk_1:
Scott. Thank

[00:59:58.28] spk_3:
you. Thank you

[01:00:02.20] spk_1:
song always makes me smile. Scott. I turned up my volume

[01:00:06.92] spk_5:
and and and I didn’t have any banging on the walls from the neighbors. So we’re good.

[01:00:11.31] spk_4:
I thought you meant from the

[01:00:14.40] spk_0:
baby.

[01:00:18.31] spk_5:
No.

[01:00:19.95] spk_1:
You

[01:00:20.43] spk_5:
Know when she turns like 13. Dad, not that song again.

[01:00:24.13] spk_1:
You’ll still be on once a year. I have to hear this song.

[01:00:28.36] spk_0:
Dad, this old, he’s gone this guy

[01:00:36.21] spk_1:
up Claire. Let’s finish up our delightful does.

[01:00:59.71] spk_3:
All right. Well this delightful dozen has just been delightful. I’ve had such a delightful time putting together the delightful dozen with my Pal Tony-Martignetti who I admire greatly for his 600 podcasts. Just amazing. So the next members are final members actually of the delightful dozen are Amy sample Ward and jean Takaki. That’s two of them.

[01:02:12.90] spk_1:
So grateful to each of you for your contributions, you know, for for helping small and midsize shops, you know, certainly for the contributions you make to the show the time you put in on the show. But you know, each of your individual practices too. You know, you’re, you’re devoted to, to helping helping those, those small and midsize shops grow and, and be sustainable and be smart about legal compliance, gene and be smart about the use of technology. Amy. And um, I’m grateful. I’m grateful to each of you to have you as esteemed contributors. Um, jean you, you, you joined the show boy second month, Your first time on the show was August 27th of 2010. We talked about keeping your board on board. So with my, my silly puns. I I started early, started early. I’m still trying keeping your board on board and out of trouble and And that was our 7th show and you’ve been on you’ve been a contributor since. Thank you jean.

[01:02:20.00] spk_6:
Thank you tony amazing! Um too afraid to

[01:02:21.19] spk_1:
be

[01:02:32.70] spk_6:
um that long and to be a part of it too, I really appreciate you giving me a voice to, to folks like us to to be able to share our perspectives with with your listeners and really just a wonderful service that you provide,

[01:03:29.30] spk_1:
I would say your expertise, I know you’re too modest to say that, but it’s your you’re sharing your expertise with listeners, so thank you and I’m happy to give you that that that platform of course, Amy Amy joined in uh 10th show. So that was July 13, 2012, 500 shows ago, that was in all social media show as a matter of fact, um Amy and jean were both on together and then there were a couple of other former contributors, Maria Semple and scott Legler. Amy joined us on the 100th show first as our social media contributor and then technology and social media contributor. Amy, you know, I I was trying to remember who introduced us. I I don’t I don’t remember but I’m forever grateful that uh that we got together and Grateful for your contributions, you know, the time you put into the show and the collaboration with within 10 as well around the conference each year,

[01:04:56.69] spk_4:
I’m so glad I started when I still lived in new york. So I have lots of memories of trying to get on the subway to get down to sand studio and go up to like tiny one person coffin elevator into its new york. So every train is always late and I’d be trying to text you, I’m coming and you were like, I’ll just keep randomly talking into this microphone and tell him he walks through the elevator. Um but I’ll tell you that I really appreciated you tony because I don’t know how much you remember this because we’ve had the opportunity to talk about lots of things over the year. But um When after I started on the show in 2012, on the 10th episode after that uh is when intense former executive director stepped down and I told you did, should I try to be the ceo should I apply? Because I’m hearing from some people when I’ve asked them that like I’m too young or I can’t do it, you know, I’m not qualified. And you were like, why wouldn’t you be the Ceo? And I was like, darn it. I’m gonna apply and here I am all these years later, still the Ceo. So thank you for believing in me.

[01:04:59.49] spk_3:
That’s a great story. I I really love that story, anne, thank you for sharing that because so many people really feel like, oh, I don’t know if I should apply for that. I don’t have enough experience and and we all should apply for everything all the time. I’m running for president of the United States.

[01:05:13.12] spk_4:
I qualified but

[01:05:18.19] spk_3:
hey, alright then we got thank you so much amy and

[01:05:21.52] spk_1:
thank you for being

[01:05:22.52] spk_3:
in our delightful dozen aimee and jean and so um we have another one and then another one. So the first of the other ones are Susan Chavez, tony Susan Chavez.

[01:06:30.78] spk_1:
Why she’s our excellent current social media manager for the show. She she promotes the show, she’s proactive about doing it. She has ideas. Uh the things that we can do. Uh she tracks analytics, we talk each month about numbers and what might be causing different trends or she’ll set my mind at ease and say, you know it’s a blip, don’t worry about it. Of course those are the downward trends. But then she’ll, you know, usually the upward trends is usually because she had a recommendation for something that we try and it brought a lot of attention, you know, on one of the platforms or to the to the site or to the show, that particular show or something. So yes, much gratitude to Susan Chavez. I, when I’m telling people that they’ll hear from her when they’re, when they’re getting their appearances coming up on the show. I say you’ll get an email from my excellent social manager. Susan Chavez always say excellent social manager. So she’s in Chavez

[01:06:32.34] spk_3:
Chavez

[01:06:32.90] spk_1:
gratitude to her.

[01:06:43.18] spk_3:
Okay, so we’ve got a carton of eggs, there’s 11 eggs, good eggs in the carton and we have one final good egg to put in our carton of the delightful dozen and the final person in our delightful dozen is none other than scott stein

[01:06:47.48] spk_5:
has

[01:06:48.02] spk_1:
To be, has to be yes, I had trouble finding that licensing agreement but uh Jean will be pleased to know that this is all this was all done by attorney was not a handshake deal. It was, it was August of 2013. I licensed your show.

[01:07:50.58] spk_5:
Yeah, I remember that it was from my old roommate joseph Becker who is an attorney and who connected us. So yeah, absolutely, but But first again, congratulations 600 episodes is just amazing and I should also add like as a professional musician, the nonprofit world is is also very near and dear to my heart because a lot of what we do involves foundations and you know, and and and the nonprofit world in the music world are very much intertwined. Um so this is just a wonderful resource and and I, I suspect too that some folks that I’ve worked with over the years, our our listeners as well and if they’re not they should be. So

[01:07:51.21] spk_1:
it’s got to get a lot of comments about non profit radio that it’s one of the things people say, you know they learn from it. It’s valuable but also entertaining,

[01:07:59.58] spk_5:
good

[01:08:00.09] spk_1:
and your music, your music brings us in every show and takes us out every show. So you’re a big part of what people like about non profit radio So thank you,

[01:08:08.75] spk_5:
thank you,

[01:08:15.77] spk_3:
Thank you. And that is our delightful dozen, 12. Fabulous people that Tony-Martignetti um acknowledged

[01:08:16.70] spk_1:
12. Yes, absolutely. And there are 12. Exemplary folks, delightful, delightful.

[01:08:23.13] spk_3:
However

[01:08:24.58] spk_1:
claire, I would like to make it a baker’s dozen,

[01:08:26.67] spk_3:
13

[01:08:27.44] spk_1:
Yes, I want to make you are extra donut, you’re the extra donut and our doesn’t

[01:08:33.75] spk_3:
crispy cream. I love the big box of Krispy Kreme, can I be the doughnut with like the white frosting and the multi colored sprinkles

[01:09:06.37] spk_1:
Absolutely. That’s you, that’s you Our 13th donut. Our 13th member of the delightful dozen. Um you know, talk about believing in, you know, you believed in me when I had this crazy idea that I wanted to start a podcast 12 years ago and you said you have no idea what you’re getting into, you have to keep it up, you have to have guests and and and you really, you know, you haven’t, you don’t have a background in it, but you know, you gave me the downsides and I said, I can do it and you believed you believed you talked me out of calling it tony tony-martignetti show.

[01:09:17.08] spk_3:
I said it had to have non profit in the title. You need a nonprofit in the title

[01:09:21.73] spk_1:
that was probably a good idea.

[01:09:23.59] spk_3:
And I talked you out of doing news because it wouldn’t be evergreen news.

[01:09:28.37] spk_1:
I talked you out of

[01:09:29.11] spk_3:
doing news and then

[01:09:30.92] spk_1:
After two weeks and

[01:09:58.57] spk_3:
then I said, you know how to do like a run down a show sheet, you had to book guests. I made you all these little cheat sheets and stuff and and helped you out at the very, you know, I’m so proud. I really am. I’m really proud to have been there from the beginning from that, that first conversation that we had at the steakhouse in cary north Carolina where I go, you’re gonna do a podcast like do you know how much work that is? Yeah, so that was way back in the day. So thank you, thank you for letting me be your baker’s dozen and the dozen donuts in the Krispy Kreme box, send us some free donuts Krispy Kreme,

[01:10:03.36] spk_1:
thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:10:05.10] spk_3:
Thank you. Thank you. tony

[01:10:06.78] spk_1:
Non profit radio 12 years ago.

[01:10:41.06] spk_3:
It’s unbelievable. I’m so, so proud of you. I’m gonna cry. I’m really, really, really proud of you because people think they can do a podcast. They think it’s easy and it is not and it’s a lot of work and to do one every single week. That’s why I tell everybody that I’m like this guy does a podcast every single week. He books guests, they’re all good podcasts, They’re all high quality, you do all the, you know, you bring it all together. It’s very hard to produce something and host it and get it on the air and do all the social and the and the production and everything around it. So Three cheers to you. Tony-Martignetti maybe it’s a baker’s plus dozen of 14 and you’re in there as well.

[01:10:45.95] spk_1:
Well, I haven’t have an exemplary team helping, but thank you, thank

[01:10:50.88] spk_3:
you Claire, Thanks tony

[01:11:05.76] spk_1:
It’s time to wrap, wrap our our 600th show, the 12th jubilee of course we’ll be back next July for 650. So glad, thank you. Thank you jean, thank you amy, thank you scott. Thank you Claire Meyerhoff. We always called each other, I always call it, we’re just

[01:11:11.26] spk_3:
gonna go high tony-martignetti

[01:11:12.91] spk_4:
thank

[01:11:13.69] spk_1:
you thanks to

[01:11:14.21] spk_3:
everybody.

[01:11:24.86] spk_1:
Um and uh my, my gratitude to our listeners, you what you’re what makes the show worth doing, we do it for you.

[01:11:27.96] spk_4:
Thank you Tony,

[01:11:29.66] spk_3:
thank you so much tony you’re the best. Really

[01:11:36.06] spk_4:
tony just like I said earlier, you know that All these folks have 13,000 people have been listening for years because they want to keep learning. You are such a great example of someone who has never said, you already know everything and you are consistently open to learning and I appreciate that about you.

[01:11:52.96] spk_1:
Thanks

[01:12:30.95] spk_3:
and if I could say something about non profit people in general as I’ve been thinking, I’ve been listening to Gene and Amy all this time and scott. What he just said about the music world is that non profit people are really wonderful. We really volunteer our time like what we’re doing right now. We took this hour and a half out of our day to do this. Not that it’s you know, we love it, it’s great but nonprofit people are very good at sharing and actually really care about the nonprofit world and we do everything that everybody asks us if someone says, hey claire, can you write me a little article? Can you do this? Can Oh yeah sure. It’s like we all really help each other out a lot and just like peter said earlier, it’s it’s it’s really a wonderful community and I’m going to cry because I’m really proud to be part of the nonprofit world. I can’t imagine working in any other field.

[01:12:45.65] spk_1:
Beautiful thank you. Claire, thank

[01:12:47.70] spk_3:
you. tony

[01:13:30.25] spk_1:
next week. R 22 N. TC coverage picks back up with cyber security for the accidental techie. That’s a good one. They’re all good. You missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T infra in a box, affordable tech solution for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[01:13:37.55] spk_0:
Our

[01:13:37.86] spk_1:
creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan

[01:13:43.28] spk_0:
Mark

[01:13:44.39] spk_1:
Silverman is our web guy

[01:13:46.20] spk_0:
and this music

[01:13:47.01] spk_1:
is by scott

[01:13:51.35] spk_0:
Stein. Thank

[01:13:51.62] spk_1:
you for that. Affirmation

[01:13:52.55] spk_0:
scotty, You’re

[01:13:54.31] spk_1:
with me next week for nonprofit

[01:13:55.66] spk_0:
radio Big

[01:13:56.90] spk_1:
non profit ideas for

[01:13:58.20] spk_0:
the other

[01:13:59.27] spk_2:
95

[01:14:03.45] spk_0:
percent. Claire

[01:14:06.43] spk_3:
tony Oh, I have a line,

[01:14:09.20] spk_2:
I have a line, it’s so

[01:14:20.45] spk_0:
important to go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm.

Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2022: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look big picture at your HR investments, corporate docs and financials. Also, what to look out for in crowdfunding, donor disclosure, data protection, and more. Gene is principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO) and our legal contributor.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:02:10.34] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of proto psychosis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show Legal Outlook for 2022, Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look at big picture items like your HR investments, corporate docs and financials also though what to look out for in crowdfunding donor disclosure, data protection and more, jean is principal of the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group Neo and our legal contributor On Tony’s take two 50% off planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s always my pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi to the show. You know who he is. It’s almost it’s almost superfluous for me for me to do the intro. But but jeanne deserves it. He’s well credentialed and I want to make sure that he gets his due introduction. Gene Takagi are legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco. He edits that wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should be following and he is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and he’s at jeanne, Welcome back.

[00:02:11.94] spk_1:
Great to be back. tony how are you?

[00:02:13.98] spk_0:
It’s always a pleasure. Thank you. I’m well happy New Year.

[00:02:17.99] spk_1:
Happy New Year.

[00:03:05.74] spk_0:
Thank you. And let’s, so let’s let’s talk about the new year. Um and just before we do I want to remind folks that not too long ago we have genes one, our legal audit which you might want to look back at. That was a sort of a condensed version of some of what we’re gonna talk about today. Although we have lots of new subjects to talk about today too. But there was the one our legal audit and also with jean recently Risk management Part one and then a different show. Risk Management Part two. So those are resources that you can look back at just from a couple of months ago and we’ll go into and and those go into more detail on some of what we’re gonna talk about today jean. Uh where would you like to start for the new year, throw it open, throw it, I throw it open to you. What would you like to start with?

[00:03:58.64] spk_1:
So it does seem like kind of this chance that restarting, getting reenergized and thinking about our organizations and where we wanted to go. Um Yes, we have to keep in mind some of those um risks that we talked about in previous shows but we also have to think about kind of where we want to go. What of our, what our dreams are um what our vision is for the organization? Had we properly captured it? Um, what is our mission? Is that sort of properly captured? Is everything because our environment seems to be changing week by week. It seems to be new stuff that comes up that we have to consider. Are we still on track with where we want to go? So having these sort of broader discussions. I like sending those organizational priorities for the new year.

[00:04:06.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um, what would you, what what priority would you like to start with?

[00:06:07.94] spk_1:
Sure. So, um, being the lawyer, I say, okay, let’s talk about legal compliance just to make sure we’ve got some systems in place, mission and values, which we’ve frequently emphasized them when we’ve had discussions about not just existing to further your mission, but to do it in a way that advances your values and if equity and inclusion of part of those values, then, you know, that’s something you should be thinking about as well, definitely considering some of the trends that are out there. And I know we’ll get into that a little bit later in the show, but also including kind of the times that we’re we live in and acknowledging that yes, we’re under the impact of Covid, which seems to be shifting constantly in both how it’s affecting us and how we might need to respond to it. The great resignation, which certainly isn’t completely unrelated to the Covid, but that is a huge trend and movement as we’re trying to figure out how do we keep our workers, are we burning them out? The mental health issues that are, you know, hitting pretty much all of us, um, from the isolation, remote, working from the uncertainties of health, from sick family members and loved ones and all of that and saying, well, are we going to be able to keep our team together? Should we be keeping our team together the way we’re working now? Do we need to shift our work practices? Do we need to shift what type of benefits for giving to them? All of those things have got to be sort of raised? And I would say raise at the board level, you know, together with the executives and senior management team. Let’s talk about it. Let’s brainstorm think about this and get what our organizational priorities are this year, because things can change rapidly and rapid change if you don’t have any plans um, to anticipate some of them don’t have contingency plans can force you into very, very stressful times where immediate actions are necessary and you can sometimes make bad decisions if you’re under that type of time stress. So

[00:06:18.63] spk_0:
then it because then it becomes a crisis

[00:06:20.30] spk_1:
right? Exactly.

[00:06:48.64] spk_0:
And and a crisis in staffing, especially knowing how hard it is to hire folks now, you know, you talked about, you know, keeping the team together or should we keep should we keep the team together? But, you know, I’m sure you’re seeing it with your clients. The difficulty in hiring, you know, you want to, that, that, that’s a, that’s a huge factor in, you know, do we have the right team? Well, putting the right team together, it’s gonna take a lot longer than it used to?

[00:08:01.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. And if you’re talking about retention, you got to figure out what are you going to invest in this? I know you want to, you know, provide as much as you can to your beneficiaries. But if you’re not really considering the team of people in, you know, on your team that are providing those services that are supporting those services, the whole thing can collapse. So just remember where your infrastructure and when your groundwork is and how important the human resources are in your organization to being able to deliver services and provide goods for your charitable missions. So really important not to neglect that. And that requires an investment both on retention and if you aren’t able to retain everybody and you need to recruit, you’re gonna have to be able to show what you’re going to invest in those new employees and give them time to learn. You can’t expect them to perform like experience people have, um, in the past. So it’s, you know, some patients, um, and definitely investment in education and training and orientation, um, and all the rest and again, um, to the extent that your executive is probably also overwhelmed with everything else going on. The board is really pivotal in trying to be able to come up with plans that help invest in their teams.

[00:08:10.44] spk_0:
This goes to legal audit the conversation we had a few months ago. You’d like to see a review of governing documents to.

[00:09:31.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I I always think that that’s a great thing to check out in the new year. Just even if you have somebody, you know, a higher up kind of a board member or where your executive or senior manager take a look At your articles and bylaws, even spending 30 minutes on it and saying is our mission really reflected in these documents or have we evolved into something else? And these documents are like stale and old and outdated now in that case those documents still rule. So if you have the I. R. S. Or a state regulator coming in audit you, if you’re not performing within that mission statement in your articles and bylaws, you could be acting completely out of compliance and worst case scenario, you can really threaten the organization through penalties, etcetera. So that’s something to take a look at. Also just take a look at a lot of organizations. I find out their their boards, they’re like, oh, you know, we forgot to elect them. You know, we, we, you know, we’ve had terms, you know of two years but they’ve been on for like 10 years and we’re happy with them. So we just don’t do elections that can be really, really harmful as well for multiple reasons. But you know, sit back, see what you’re doing and what you’re not doing consistent with your articles and bylaws. And if you need to change things determine that you have to change. And if you need the help of a lawyer, try to find somebody that can help you with that. And there are some good resources on the web as well.

[00:09:48.64] spk_0:
What’s, what’s one of the good resources?

[00:10:15.04] spk_1:
A little bit of a self plug because I’m a board member, but board source has excellent resources on board of directors, governance things of that nature. Stanford University also has excellent resources in terms of sort of template documents that are just a guide for nonprofits. It’s not one size fits all, but it just gives you a general idea about how some things operate. Um, so those are just too good resources to look at.

[00:10:18.35] spk_0:
And, and again, we, we talked about this extensively in the show called your one

[00:10:24.34] spk_1:
hour legal audit.

[00:10:30.14] spk_0:
You have some last one. You have some financial performance advice for the new year.

[00:13:04.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Well I think probably, um, most people take a look at their financials throughout the year on the board level and on the executive level. Um, but the new year, you’ve actually sort of completed your financials and they might not be, um, in final form yet, but you might have what some people call it pro form, a set of financials, um, sort of close to final, where you get to assess what you’ve done in the year, you know, for, for most organizations, this goes without saying, but you want to make sure that you’re performing in a way that you’re not becoming insolvent. So you want to make sure what your balance sheet looks like and whether you have net assets, um, if you don’t have net assets, that means that you are either insolvent or, you know, in the zone of insolvency, you have to think about how you’re going to address that very serious issue. And I would say you don’t have internal expertise on dealing with it, get outside help right away if that’s the case. But your, your statement of revenues and expenses as well, are you sort of operating what people call in the black so that there is, you know, some net income in there or are you operating in the red where you’re very concerned because you’re losing money, timing is always important. So it’s misleading to look at one year in isolation because sometimes grants are given in one year, but they’re actually uh received in another year. So the timing issue can pose different challenges about reading financials. So you want to be able to read it sort of collectively through a multi year period just to know where you stand. And again, if board members aren’t able to help an executive and the executive feels like they need some help with understanding financials, to reading financials invest in everybody’s training in this area and there are a lot of people, even pro bono, that, that are offering this training pro bono and a lot of resources on the web. So make sure you understand your financials and what they’re indicating. You don’t need to know every single financial ratio that you know, business people use, but just generally no. Are you healthy financially or are you trending bad? And if you have several years where you’re in the red, where you, where you’re not making money, it looks like you’re bleeding money, then that might be indicative of some change that’s necessary in order to make your organization sustainable on an ongoing basis. So again, you don’t want to hit crisis mode financially. So this is a good chance, take a look at your financials, not just last year, but over a multiyear period and see where you are, get help if you need it.

[00:15:08.54] spk_0:
We have a show that I replayed, oh, I think within the past six months, uh, the guest was Andy Robinson. So you could go to tony-martignetti dot com and just search his name Andy Robinson, but it was something like teaching your board basic financials and he wrote a book, I’m pretty sure it was published by charity channel, uh, with, with a title similar to that. So if you, and the show is a few years old, but reading financial statements and and balance sheets hasn’t changed much in probably 100 years. Um, so it’s just all in and out now now, it’s all in Excel. But uh, so if you’d like some help with that, there is a, there is a show where Andy Robinson was the guest talking about, you’re improving your boards, financial literacy. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, your 2022 communications plan. Does it have lots of projects? Lots of writing projects? You can get the biggest projects off your plate and outsource them. Free up staff time to devote to the work that it’s not feasible to have others doing for you. Like the annual report, just because it’s been done in house in the past, doesn’t mean it has to be done in house this year. What about research reports, White papers, your other heavy lift pieces. Do you need help with writing projects in 2022, Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to legal outlook for 2022 with Gene Takagi. Okay, so let’s talk about some trends then, jean, you have a, you have a case we haven’t talked about, we haven’t talked about an actual case for a while. Americans for prosperity.

[00:19:16.54] spk_1:
Yeah. So um that was a huge U. S. Supreme Court case at least huge for the nonprofit sector. Um, but with deeper implications for if I if I’m not over hyping it for democracy itself. So um so americans for prosperity, Foundation versus Banta, who was the California Attorney general basically it was about the schedule be disclosure of donors who donated more than $5000. So for nonprofits who know how to prepare their form 19 nineties, you’ll know that on schedule B of your form 1990. Eur actually disclosing to the I. R. S. It’s not public information. Um But it’s to the I. R. S. The name and address of your donors who donated more than $5000. Now that hasn’t changed, you still have to disclose it to the I. R. S. But certain states, including California where volunteers from as the attorney general um New york I believe New Jersey I believe Hawaii also included Um all asked for a copy of the 990 including an unredacted schedule B to be given to the state regulator because they also want to look at that information for state law compliance purposes. A lot of them are concerned about donors who give money but get something back in return that’s not being disclosed. So if they ever have to have an investigation of that, that information turns out to be very helpful to the state to be able to say ah they were giving money but they also took in this huge benefit, this huge contract for example, which you know, reap them millions of dollars. Um So there was a legal case um that went up through the courts um finally hit the U. S. Supreme Court and the A. G. Lost here, The California G. Um So the court decided and we know the court’s composition is fairly conservative right now. The court decided that uh the states don’t have this right. Um It was based on the fact finding of the lower courts which is a little bit unfortunate because if the higher court could have considered more facts, then it might have been decided a different way but based on kind of how how our legal system works and and and how the Supreme Court works and the composition of the Supreme Court. They held that, hey this is not disclosed able to the states essentially that’s the impact of it. The broader impact on why I said democracy might be uh issue here is because well what about sort of campaign finance disclosures? And what about the I. R. S. Should they be entitled to that information as well? So it’s really helpful in compliance. But the counter argument and why some organizations charities, we’re also um not in favor of the disclosures is because of the protection of the donor. And the old case cited um in this part of the argument was an N double A cp case that said, well, if we disclose our donors, the KKK had threatened to kill all of them. Um And you can see why privacy was important in that issue and this issue, it was nothing like this. I think it’s a Koch brothers, um, kind of funded charity. They wanted really to keep their identity, um, more hidden because they have desires to influence politics in many ways. And if it always gets associated with them, then the impact lessons. So if they can look like they’re ground swells of movements that are funding these things rather than individual donors, um, it looks better for for what they’re trying to do. So that’s, you know, that’s what’s at stake here is not only are the state’s not allowed to get this information that would really help them in state law enforcement of whether there’s diversion of charitable assets that benefit

[00:19:29.74] spk_0:
donors. But

[00:19:30.15] spk_1:
in the broader sense, are we going to allow more dark money to enter into our political systems without knowing that there are donors, heavy donors that back these, you know, politicians or political parties or political movements. So that’s the scary part about this decision.

[00:19:57.94] spk_0:
What’s the, I think infamous Supreme Court case that that allowed the allowed the dark money into, uh, into politics. United

[00:20:02.73] spk_1:
Citizens. United

[00:20:27.54] spk_0:
United. Yeah. Um, All right. All right. And so I just want to repeat this. So this case that Gene was just talking about is americans for prosperity Foundation V. Banta B. O. N. T. A. What about crowdfunding you, you point out that there’s a new crowdfunding law. Hope is this a little more optimistic? I hope?

[00:21:22.54] spk_1:
Uh, well, depending upon how you look at it. And I think in one sense it’s inevitable. Um, a lot of our laws that are developed regarding fundraising, um, don’t even, and never anticipated the internet, right, johnny. So, uh, you know, now crowdfunding platform is, you know, not just the internet, the use of the internet, but it’s a lot of different for profit companies getting involved, um, to enable charities and organizations and people who are not charities to raise funds that look like they could be for charitable purposes, Right? So you want to help victims of a fire, but you want to help them directly, because some individuals said, I want to start a Go fund Me campaign, right? And say, well, you know, chip in 50 bucks and let’s try to get these people some help doesn’t, that doesn’t go through a charity. Often it just goes to this person, right, who promises to give these other people money

[00:21:35.90] spk_0:
and go funding the person’s goodwill. Honestly, yeah,

[00:21:58.14] spk_1:
Go fund Me is, you know, reacted to this and they’re probably the biggest crowdfunding platforms. So they’ve reacted to this in terms of having their own internal policies to help prevent a check. But overall, there’s, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of crowdfunding platforms out there that do this to make a profit. Um, and they may not have those types of controls or checks to not to just, you know, prevent somebody from saying, let’s raise money to help fire victims and then just keeping it. Um, so,

[00:22:11.97] spk_0:
what, what, what is the import of the law for, for us?

[00:23:21.34] spk_1:
So I think the import of the law is, if you’re going to get on and decide, hey, we want to do crowdfunding, um, you’ve got to select your platform provider carefully and this law, which is in California, but is likely to spread across different states in various forms, says, well now, if you’re gonna do that, you’ve got to make sure that this crowdfunding platform is registered. Um, and they’re reporting and there are all sorts of rules involved. So if you have a contract with them, it should be subject to these rules that might say things like, well, if they collect money, they have to give the money to the charity within a certain time period. Right? So they couldn’t say, well, it takes this administration, so maybe a couple of years before you get that, you know, nobody’s gonna be happy with that, but without rules, why not? Um, so these are, this is why it’s important for charities to have rules. The actual details of the rules. So I can see why some people have some, some issue with them. And we haven’t had all of the regulations yet, they’re still in discussion. So this is very, Still very trending, but the crowdfunding law, the law, the general law that’s in place now will become effective in California in 2023, and the regulations are being developed right now,

[00:23:58.04] spk_0:
let’s turn to remote work, which is obviously so much more common now. Hybrid work, you know, return to work dates are being pushed off and off. Um What what are what are what are what trends are you seeing? What should be on, will you be on the lookout for with respect to uh remote work and employment law issues?

[00:25:10.84] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s, you know, this is a really tricky area. Um you know, for sure, Covid where people were suddenly not permitted to to go indoors in some cases for months. Um and who knows if, you know, we’re going to return to some of those scenarios with the omicron variant out there, We’re hoping that it’s less um severe in terms of its impact, even if it might be a more transmissible, but if we if we keep worrying about this and saying, you know, our workers aren’t comfortable coming to work, even if the law allows them to come to work. Um Maybe we’re going to let people work remotely, and many of us have gone full remote, some of us have gone back to partial returns, some have gone back to full returns and then gone back, you know out the other way and said, okay, you know, it’s at the workers discretion whether they want to come in or not. So what makes us a little bit tricky. Um is that you don’t control the work environment as the employer, if they’re working at home, right? Um but that becomes the work environment, if they’re doing work from home, that’s their work environment, and, you know, the employer is responsible for the work environment if they should get hurt, for example,

[00:25:22.94] spk_0:
um

[00:26:56.24] spk_1:
So it becomes a little bit tricky about, well, how do you, how do you handle that for workers comp reasons, for safety reasons, for OSHA reasons? Um and I think there’s an understanding by regulators that, you know, this is out of control of most small businesses, small charities and, you know, to to that extent, we’re not really gonna look to enforce things on that level, but there are other things that, that are also concerning, because not everybody goes when, when they decide to work remote, we work in the same city or in the same state, right. A lot of us um have decided to, you know, maybe move back with family, which might be in another state. In some cases it could be another country, or some of us have decided to travel and spend a little bit of time, you know, in different places. Um So how does allow treat that? And basically, you know, the old rules, which are the rules, many of us are stuck with. Um the old rules are, well, you have to comply with the laws where the worker is doing the work, so if you have a worker in new york who’s now working remotely and came out to florida, well, then all the employment rules regarding worker safety and wage and hour laws and salary, overtime, sick pay benefits, all the florida laws apply to that worker now. Um, and so now it’s like, well, you’ve got to work in florida, you’ve got to think about, are you qualified to do business in

[00:27:00.21] spk_0:
florida,

[00:27:36.94] spk_1:
charity registration in florida? Um, and you may have had no connection to florida before, but all of a sudden you have a worker working there. Um, so a few states, um, and they’re not very many, but a few states that said, well, you know, during covid, we’ve got these temporary rules where we’re relaxed, where you don’t have to do that. And there’s also state tax issues, right? State payroll taxes, and, and other times, all of those things, some states said, you don’t have to worry about it. A lot of organizations are simply not complying with, But,

[00:27:37.49] spk_0:
but you said it’s only a handful of states that said, we’re we’re we’re not enforcing

[00:27:42.14] spk_1:
right. Exactly.

[00:27:43.33] spk_0:
The majority of

[00:29:01.34] spk_1:
states are, Yeah, well, I shouldn’t say they’re enforcing, but they haven’t the old laws or the existing laws still apply. There are no transition laws, so you’re out of compliance. And if they do enforce, which might not be like a, you know, a regulator coming out to you and saying you haven’t done this, it may be your employee is unhappy with something you’ve done, who’s working there and said, hey florida law applies and you haven’t been complying with the florida sort of benefits laws that, that apply. And maybe I could give you more specific example because san Francisco, if you came out to California, your remote employee came out to California, san Francisco has mandatory six hours and not a lot, a lot of states don’t have sick our pay. Um, but all of a sudden if you’re not paying them and they get wind of that, hey, you were supposed to pay me for this and you haven’t been, it’s the employee who could launch the complaint. Um, so it’s just to be careful of these things and, and just as your strategy for charity registration, tony when you’re sort of fundraising all over the country to, to, you’re not going to be able to maybe do all 50 states at once, but just to make sure you’ve got a plan to attack this kind of the same thing here. Um, check out where your employees are, you should know exactly where they are and check each state in terms of how strictly, maybe in terms of enforcing this and start to slowly comply

[00:30:12.74] spk_0:
the implications of state law. Yeah. What about the technology remote work? I don’t know if that’s all been figured out yet and maybe there were, maybe there were stopgap measures during the, during the, the darkest part of the pandemic, but but going forward, you know, tech technology has to be, has to be upgraded. You know, are we gonna, we’re gonna continue providing work phones? Are we going to provide work laptops? What about paying for internet access over the long term? I mean, you know, the internet access can be costly. And if if work is taking up a lot of the bandwidth, isn’t it appropriate for an employer to be paying a portion? And then how do then how does the, how does the, what’s the mechanism for the employee verifying how much they pay and you know, and then what percentage are we gonna cover of that, all the all the technology issues around, around remote work.

[00:30:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, def definitely. And and as an as an employer, I would say, beyond sort of any legal compliance issues, um, you’ve got a, I think an ethical issue to make sure you’re providing your employees with the tools to do their job. And if you’re allowing remote work, you should make sure that they have the tools. So if they need a computer to be able to access it, so they’re not, they’re not using their personal computer. Um then you should make sure that happens same thing with the telephone. And if, you know, if those are going to be dedicated to work, um it should be explicitly written out that way. But if you force them to use their personal things, there are some states that actually do have laws that say you must reimburse your your employees if they’re using the tools that they need um for for remote work, but just ethically. Yeah.

[00:31:18.74] spk_0:
But then that’s then that raises security issues too. Absolutely. They have any kind of HIPPA protected information on their personal laptop. That’s gonna be a big problem. That that’s I think that’s probably a mistake if you’re dealing with that kind of data. But um

[00:32:01.74] spk_1:
and don’t we probably all have that type of stuff on our personal computers, right? You know, sort of HIPPA protected? We may have had emails like that are saved onto our computers. Um Right. So if if the computer is also being used for work and there’s a work issue that causes that data to be taken or corrupted, like, you know, what’s the employer’s responsibility if they hadn’t provided an alternative, it’s a great point

[00:32:50.94] spk_0:
and and it’s not only hip hop data, but other other personalized data that that maybe on now the personals, the employee’s personal computer, desktop or laptop or phone, you know, how is that? How is that private private data protected? Do they have malware prevention on their on their personal devices so that so that company emails that they’re that they’re using on their personal device aren’t potentially compromised. I mean, the use of the personal equipment raises a lot of technology and and Legal privacy and ethical issues to your right. I mean, if the person is eight or 10 hours a day, they’re using their personal laptop, shouldn’t there be some compensation for that?

[00:34:46.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think minimally because no matter you know how much we encourage people to have sort of work dedicated computers provided by the workplace, people are going to use their personal phones. I mean we can go back to the politicians who have all been using their personal funds. So we know it happens regardless of what the best practices. But what can the employer do, they can pay for all of that data protection stuff that that computer should have. Right, tony because now it has much more sensitive information on there and the employer is partly responsible for some of the other information that could be on there and hack. So yeah, employers should help. And that kind of leads us to the whole data security issue as well that everybody’s got to be paying attention to now is really um nonprofits have important data in their system. Some of it is, you know, hipaa protected some of it is other privacy information. You may have employment reviews on there that you don’t want going out into the real world or client, you know, feedback which might be positive. Some of it might be negative sensitive communications, all sorts of stuff that you might find on a work computer and if it gets hacked and if that data gets stolen or if somebody holds the system which might run your programs or aspects of your programs if they cause your system to crash and say that they will only sort of fix it because they’ve hacked and caused the crash. If you pay a ransom, you’ve got all sorts of problems. Uh and maybe some of that may have been mitigated with some basic steps like you mean you’re not going to be, well even the U. S. Government can’t prevent all hackers. I think we we know that, but you can take reasonable steps based on your budget, whatever that might be to to control some of this. So it really is important to have some safeguards.

[00:34:55.74] spk_0:
Another potential category of data is the G. D. P. R. Data. If if if your nonprofit is implicated at all in in that european common law law then or the yeah then then you’ve got those concerns as well.

[00:35:08.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. So if you have european donors or you’re doing business with any european entities and you have data from those entities or persons be careful and again, remote working can trigger some of that. So if if they decided to, you know their home or or they want to travel to europe and do their work from there.

[00:35:28.74] spk_0:
Um,

[00:35:29.74] spk_1:
all sorts of implications.

[00:37:44.03] spk_0:
Yeah. Absolutely right. People very good point where where people are sitting and where they’re planted when they’re working, It’s time for Tony Take two We’ve got 50% off the tuition for planned giving accelerator. That’s because just last week A donor stepped up someone who believes very deeply in planned giving accelerator and he is offering to pay 50% of the tuition For the 1st 10 nonprofits that take him up on his offer. A couple have already done it as of the time I’m recording, but there are several spots left. So if you’ve been toying with the idea of planned giving accelerator, it’s never going to be cheaper than 50% off. What the way this will work is. You’ll pay the tuition in full, which is $1195 for the six month course. This donor will then make a gift to you of half of that. So you’ll have a new donor, he’ll pay half your tuition. So it ends up being 50% off the full tuition cost. I know the donor, it’s someone I trust you have my word. Your final cost will be half of the full tuition if you’d like to jump on this and be one of the members of what is now our february class. I want to give people enough time for this because it, it just came in last week. So I’m extending, we’re, we’re not gonna start the class until february if you’d like to be part of that february class At 50% off email and we’ll, we’ll talk about planned giving accelerator and whether it can help you launch your planned giving program. Mhm. tony at tony-martignetti dot com. That’s me. That is Tony’s take two, We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for legal outlook for 2022

[00:38:01.22] spk_1:
one and one of the tools to think about and I’m a little bit guilty of this as well um is be careful of public wifi um because that often is an entryway for a

[00:38:03.83] spk_0:
hacker. Yeah, that’s totally unsecured airports, airplanes,

[00:38:09.89] spk_1:
coffee shops,

[00:38:13.42] spk_0:
coffee shops, Starbucks, wherever those are, all unsecured networks.

[00:38:29.32] spk_1:
Right? Meaning that there is the potential for somebody in there who has some malicious intent if they want to be able to hack into to your computer through that public wifi. Unsecured wifi. And there are different systems um but maybe one of the simplest for for those of us who have smartphones, which I think is most of us is you could actually create a sort of a private wifi just

[00:38:52.92] spk_0:
for your smartphone, right? Hotspot? Hotspot and don’t use the unsecured wifi to connect to, you know, use the uh the four G or five G or the five GHZ et cetera.

[00:38:56.17] spk_1:
Right? And that’s something an employer could pay to make sure that the employee has significant data and data plan that can incorporate all the additional data that they may need in their plan because of the work. So again, that would be reasonable and and ethical for the nonprofit employer to pay for their employees to have a higher data plan. Um, if they’re going to to use that and insist as a policy that they do not use public wifi. If they’re using a work computer or a computer that contains work and sensitive information,

[00:39:36.52] spk_0:
all you need is to transmit an email on, on an unsecured wifi that that has a donors credit card number, maybe

[00:39:38.77] spk_1:
native

[00:39:58.12] spk_0:
birth address, name any, any two of those things together, uh, hacked could be very detrimental to that donor. And you know, whether it ever gets traced back to you is is uncertain, but you’ve, you’ve put your donors privacy at risk in a simple email that has any two of those pieces of information.

[00:40:04.31] spk_1:
And it appears to be a myth, um, when people have relied on, they’re not going to go after us because we’re nonprofits, people don’t go

[00:40:12.29] spk_0:
after. Oh, that’s bullshit. Oh, that’s ridiculous.

[00:40:14.57] spk_1:
Right?

[00:40:22.61] spk_0:
I’m working with a client now that, that is a, is in new york city that’s, that’s, um, victim of, of a malware, uh, ransomware, so brought me a ransomware attack.

[00:40:27.61] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:40:40.41] spk_0:
And they’re keeping it quiet so I’m not permitted to say who it is. But um, yeah, they’ve, they’ve been, they’ve been hindered for weeks and weeks with data accessibility issues.

[00:40:42.71] spk_1:
Yeah. And it’s much more common than we think because organizations do want to keep it quiet because if there is a vulnerability, they don’t want to come and say other hackers come come and attack us, we’re vulnerable. So it may be much more pervasive than we think

[00:40:57.61] spk_0:
and that myth also breaks down along ideological

[00:41:00.04] spk_1:
lines.

[00:41:21.61] spk_0:
Some some person on the left may may attack an organization on the right. Some person on the right may attack an organization on the left just because of where the organization stands with respect to the person’s political and ideological beliefs that that that’s enough. It doesn’t matter that you’re a nonprofit. It’s it’s your ideology and your mission. It has nothing to do with your tax exempt status as to why somebody would or wouldn’t go after you.

[00:41:28.41] spk_1:
Yeah and um in these times that those ideological differences have been very um pronounced and. Yeah.

[00:41:41.11] spk_0:
Alright where else should we go? Gene with trends, trends for the new year. Come on.

[00:44:24.69] spk_1:
Um Let’s talk a little bit since we’re talking about technology and data security. Let’s talk a little bit about crypto currency because I find that pretty fascinating. Um There was an organization that came together and bid $40 million on a copy of the U. S. Constitution just a few weeks ago. Um That money the $40 million plus more I think about 47 or $48 million was raised for that purpose in less than two weeks. Um So um Cryptocurrency donors um often have made a ton of money because of the appreciation of cryptocurrencies like. Bitcoin for for those who aren’t super familiar with it. Um And if you donate Cryptocurrency, it’s like donating a non cash asset, meaning that if You bought crypto currency for $1,000 10 years ago and it’s worth now several million dollars, which if you bought the red Cryptocurrency, that might be the case if you sold it, uh you would have a lot of taxes to pay on that appreciation right? The several million dollars of appreciated income that would be subject to capital gains tax. Um So if you sold it and donated some of the proceeds, that would not be a very tax efficient way to donate. When if you donated the Cryptocurrency itself, what you do is you get to take a fair market value deduction of the several million dollars. So you gave several million. So potentially you could deduct that is a charitable contribution and pay no capital gains tax because he never sold it. Um So very tax efficient way of giving um And Cryptocurrency people, wealthy millionaires and others who decided that they wanted see some positive impact um from giving these gifts are are making gifts of Cryptocurrency now and that’s that’s partly why I am so many gathered together to say hey we’d like to fund a charity to buy a copy of the U. S. Constitution so that we can ensure that this constitution is always for the public’s benefit and on public viewership and not sitting in somebody’s house, you know for for their own prestige. Um But that really opens it up, cherish. Think about there’s a lot of these people who made quite a bit of money on Cryptocurrency and a lot of younger people are investing barely heavily in Cryptocurrency now. So it’s something to not sort of blow away if we’re um kind of our age or older, tony to say, Cryptocurrency, what is that? It’s it’s something to really embrace now because it’s it’s not just this exotic tool now, it’s part of regular investment portfolios.

[00:45:56.79] spk_0:
Absolutely, it’s it’s it’s coming and and jean this dovetails perfectly with Our November 15 show of 2021 Bitcoin in the future of fundraising with my guests who are an Connolly and Jason shim who wrote a book Bitcoin in the future of fundraising. So, um it’s do you it’s just more, more sage advice that crypto donations are coming. It’s not a matter of if it’s just when are you gonna get on board now or you’re gonna wait two more years and potentially be behind the curve. Um and as an and Jason pointed out today, there are so few organizations accepting crypto that a lot of people are just searching for. Where can I donate? Cryptocurrency and probably largely, Gene for the reasons you’re describing there, They’re looking for a direct crypto donation to help them with substantial capital gains. Are there specific legal implications of crypto donations that that we need to be aware of or or is it just, you know, you just want folks to know that this trend is, it’s in the middle, it’s happening right now.

[00:48:15.97] spk_1:
So I think, you know, one of the reasons why charities are afraid to take Kryptos because they don’t know what laws apply when they receive the crypto. They’re like, what do we do with this? Um, and there are ways to easily cash that out and turn it into us cash. And in fact, most charities that accept crypto and they’re not a lot, you’re right, tony but most carriers that accept them liquidate them immediately turned them into cash and deposited into fiat currency, like regular paper currency, um, in their bank accounts. Um, So they’re not holding onto the crypto very long at all. One of the reasons why that’s, that can be very important is because there are prudent investor rules for charities that don’t apply to for profits that basically say if you’ve got investment assets, charities, this is not just endowments, but just any sort of investment assets for reserves or for a capital fund or anything you can’t invest. It speculatively, you couldn’t just throw it all in like Apple stock, um that would be too speculative. You have to look at it, uh, through what financial professionals, investment professionals called portfolio theory, are you sufficiently um, have an investment portfolio diversified across several different asset classes? So if one bombs, you haven’t tanked all of your money. Um, and the board of directors have a fiduciary duty to live up to the prudent investment laws that also sort of follow this portfolio theory of how how have you actually divest? Sorry? Um diversify Yeah. Um your your funds across different investment classes to protect yourself and there are different considerations that go along with that. Um But that is one reason why you don’t want to get stuck with all of your investments being in crypto because crypto maybe one of the most volatile type of investments where it can double in a matter of days and it could tank and disappear in a matter of days as well. So depending upon what type of Cryptocurrency you have and there are hundreds if not thousands of crypto types of Cryptocurrency um that have evolved in a lot of people and organizations that are making new coins all the time. So new new forms of Cryptocurrency arising and while we talked about crypto as being a part of more investment portfolios as a normal part of of investments. Now it’s not every Cryptocurrency that would be in that it’s certainly one

[00:48:47.07] spk_0:
1000 right? Some of these thousands trade for thousands of pennies, Thousands Yeah thousands of pennies even you know .0001 three zeros and a one is you know is the value of the currency. Um So. Alright that’s perfect as I said, perfect dovetail to that to that uh that november show because you’re you’re raising the prudent investor rule and and uh portfolio theory.

[00:50:07.66] spk_1:
One more thing on this, tony the forms the I. R. S. Forms for when you get Non cash contributions of more than $500. And how quickly you sell them. Um Also applies to form 82 83 is what the donor needs to sign when they give a non cash contribution of over $500 of over $500. And if it’s over $5000 which many crypto gifts are, they have to get a qualified appraisal for this. So that’s really important. And the Dhoni which is the charity has to sign that form for the donor. And then if the donor the Dhoni, I’m sorry the charity sells it within three years, they have to sign a form 80 to 82. Yeah so that’s again it’s not terribly hard. It sounds like a lot of just legalese I’m blabbing out but it’s not too hard but just take a quick look at those. If you decide that you want to start getting Cryptocurrency and at worst you might ask your donor to find a donor advised fund that takes crypto turns it into cash and then disperses it to the charity. So there are donor advised funds that do that

[00:50:15.76] spk_0:
interesting. Okay so so a Cryptocurrency donation is a non cash donation

[00:50:19.90] spk_1:
correct?

[00:50:58.76] spk_0:
Okay and for non cash donations of $500 or more, That’s where your your donor has the implication of i. r. s. Form 82 83. And you as the charity if you sell it within three years which your advice is that they do because it’s of its volatility Then you’ve got the implication of i. r. s. Form 80 – 82. I always thought those were backwards. The donors should have 80 to 82 because that comes first. Then comes 82 83 from the don’t to the Dhoni first the donor has it. Then the charity should be 80 to 82 82 83. But it’s not It’s 82 83 for your donor and 80 – 82 for you.

[00:51:06.16] spk_1:
That sounds like larry david logic. But that’s how I think as well.

[00:51:10.58] spk_0:
Yeah. I’ve been accused of being larry David in lots of ways. Including my my hair when it’s long like it is

[00:51:16.23] spk_1:
now. I’ve

[00:51:33.46] spk_0:
been accused of looking like Larry David. But we’re not complaining, we’re helping. That’s all right. Um Alright let’s leave us with something else. Another trend for the new year that you want us to be thinking about gene. Um

[00:51:36.96] spk_1:
Let me talk a little bit about diversity equity and inclusion. Since we’ve we’ve talked about that in the

[00:51:42.21] spk_0:
past. You could search jean and I have talked about D. I a bunch of times. But

[00:53:46.05] spk_1:
yeah please. You know I think in combination when we talk about the great migration and how the pandemic might be affecting different populations in different ways that we start to think again about kind of? Well if our charity is doing some some mission and we might not think of that mission as being really reflective of of specific races or or anything like that. Um But could D. E. I. B. Important anyway. And I think that’s where we get to think about. Well if we had more perspectives in our organization, if if we’re lacking some of those perspectives now, for example not having a lot of latin thinks Hispanics or blacks or asian americans on the board or in the leadership group, maybe we’re not really thinking about how our services that we’re delivering are affecting different populations differently. Maybe we’re just sort of providing services but we’re focused on urban centers or urban centers where if we’re center based, our center based is in neighborhoods that are much more accessible to uh white populations versus other populations. So getting different perspectives, even if we think of ourselves as being race neutral, which is kind of a charged term. But I’ll just use it for for these purposes. If we think some of us think of ourselves as race neutral and therefore we don’t have to get involved in the D. E. I work. We want to say, well don’t we care about serving our population in a way that’s kind of fair and not just favoring one segment over other segments or just totally neglecting certain segments of the population because they don’t have the same type of access. Have we ever thought about those things and having diversity can help us think about those things. Um, but it has to be done obviously in an inclusive way, which we’ve talked about and I know we just have a few minutes here, but it’s

[00:54:03.34] spk_0:
sort of it’s touching on, you know, not knowing what you don’t know without without having the perspective of diverse populations on your board, in your leadership, then you don’t know how you’re not serving other non white populations. Yeah. And even when we were perceived by other by by non white populations.

[00:55:32.64] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. And even when we say, well when we look at a group of people and we say diversity, you know, that has one meaning. But sometimes when we just look in our inside our own heads, uh, and when people go unconscious bias, for example, try to think about what that is. It’s like, well if we don’t have the benefit of having different perspectives are being exposed to that all of our lives and none of us have all of the perspectives in our lives. So we were all going to be guilty of some sort of unconscious bias because we just don’t know any better. We we haven’t had other information that would have help develop a sensitivity or understanding or just knowledge of some of the disparities that are out there. So, and and how our organization can be either helping those disparities or hindering them. So just getting a sense of where we’d like to go. I think that can improve employee retention. It can lead us to new areas of employee recruitment and it can make us more relevant as organizations in the future, where if we’re not addressing some of these things, we could find ourselves becoming irrelevant less attractive to future donors, especially younger donors who this is very important to. Um, and so that’s my, my closing thought. Mhm.

[00:55:48.24] spk_0:
All good thoughts for uh, for the new year for 2022, Gene Takagi are legal, legal contributor, Managing attorney of Neo. You’ll find him at nonprofit law blog dot com. He’s also at G attack and you’ll find the firm at neo law group dot com. Gene again, thank you very much. Happy New Year.

[00:55:57.39] spk_1:
Happy New Year. tony

[00:56:47.13] spk_0:
next week. I’m working on it very diligently. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Do you need help with any of those ready projects in 2022? Get them off your plate. A creative producer is claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein. Mm hmm, thank you for that affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for November 1, 2021: Risk Management II

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: Risk Management II

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns to complete our coverage of the risks lurking in your employee relations; facilities; events; and vehicles. Also, what to do to keep those risks at a minimum, so incidents don’t hurt your nonprofit. Gene is our legal contributor and principal at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group. (Part I was on October 4th.)

 

 

 

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