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Special Episode: Nonprofits & CARES Act

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My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Nonprofits & CARES Act
The CARES Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the Act that nonprofits can take advantage of. Benefits for your org and your staff. And they’re pretty good. So you may want to apply. Plus, longer term relief for nonprofit fundraising. Gene Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 

 

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[00:01:07.49] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special short episode of non profit radio to meet the needs of nonprofits during the Corona virus pandemic. This is our fourth special episode. Non Profits and Cares Act. The Cares Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the act that nonprofits can’t take advantage of benefits for your organ and your staff, and they’re pretty good, so you may want to apply. Plus, there’s longer term relief for nonprofits. Non profit fundraising. Jean Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group Jean Welcome. How are you?

[00:01:09.60] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you very much, tony, for allowing me to share information with your with your audience.

[00:01:15.42] spk_3:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. I know you’ve been ah, believing it is my pleasure. You’ve been busy all week talking about the Cares Act, I’m sure.

[00:01:26.18] spk_0:
Definitely everybody interested in in, uh, how nonprofits can take advantage and really thankful that there’s some advocacy groups out there that got nonprofits considered in these in these Lost?

[00:02:11.24] spk_3:
Yeah, for sure. Explicitly in in some cases. So all your work this week has led you to this to this pinnacle non profit radio. So it’s all led up to here. So thank you for all that preparation that you’ve been doing toe to talk to our listeners. Um, is it is it best if we, uh, you want to start with an overview? I mean, I definitely want to get into the paycheck protection program and the economic injury disaster loans. Do you want to start a broader than that before we get in that specific? Well,

[00:02:51.14] spk_0:
I’ll just mention that the Cares act is this $2.2 billion package. And, um, when provisions were put in for small businesses, it was really important. Thio note that nonprofits are out there who are also employers who are also desperate for assistance at this time. And thio have non profits put into provisions like the payroll protection program are really important. But this is, um, just part of the legislation that’s come down since the Corona virus pandemic has hit us and and our federal government has started paying attention to what needs our country’s having great now desperate needs in many cases. And there was a set of laws called the Families First Corona Virus Response Act. That duck with leaves a swell paid leaves by employees. And so that’s another component that I hope we get a chance to talk about in addition to the care, Zach.

[00:03:19.34] spk_3:
Okay, Um, all right, so why don’t we? Why don’t we take care of that? What’s the what’s the the leave? The leave provisions? So the

[00:04:46.65] spk_0:
leave provisions in basically apply to again small businesses, including non profits with less than 500 employees and provided for two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now, sick leave isn’t required to be federally from under federal law to be. I hate it. In many cases, some states do require it. But here is a federal law ah, that required now all small employers, including non profits, to provide two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now there are some exceptions that might be possible for employers that had less than 50 employees for undue hardship, Um, for really, really small organizations where that’s just not at all possible that that is a standard that they might be able to to meet. But generally this applies to everyone, and the amount of paid sick leave is at the employees regular rate up to $511 per day. So it’s captain a 10 days or 5100 and $10. Okay, um, and if it is to take care of ah, child or, you know because of the child is is the one who’s sick or the child is, uh, needs child care because their schools of clothes because of quarantine rules, then the amount would be the employees regular rate up to $200 per day. So not the full 511. But it would be. Actually, I’m sorry. The employers rate times 2/3 that 2/3 of the employers rate or a captain $200 per day for that 10 days. So that’s the first section required. Paid sickly.

[00:05:05.28] spk_3:
Okay, where can we find this in writing somewhere? So because that’s a lot to digest. Yeah, it’s See this on the web.

[00:05:36.24] spk_0:
So if you just Google families first Corona Virus Response Act, um, the National Council of non profit actually had a good site on that. So that maybe a place to look Okay, Cool. Uh, the other leave that they have is a 12 week of emergency family and medical leave, and basically it’s a 10 week add on to the two weeks that you originally had. But this is only for care of family members again. Child care. If there’s a sick child due to the Corona virus or their school got quarantined, and child care is required to be provided

[00:05:50.87] spk_3:
that it is not to be child care, could it be care of someone else in the family who’s not a child?

[00:05:56.64] spk_0:
It could be another dependent. I believe that that’s Ah provided a family member

[00:06:02.02] spk_3:
dependent. Okay, but that wouldn’t be a parent then, unless the parent was independent.

[00:06:38.48] spk_0:
I don’t know that that currents are included will have to wait to see if, if the regulation spell that out become. And that’s an additional 10 weeks and again to the to the 12 weeks that sorry to the two weeks that that’s in the original act. And that’s a 2/3 of each employee’s usual pay up to $200 per day. Now, this is a huge burden on employers, right? All of a sudden, if they hadn’t been required to pay leave before now they’re required to pay leave. And obviously, a lot of employers are gonna be cash strapped now if their businesses have closed and things so the these air not available if the workplace is completely closed down. Um, and the other thing to know that employers can recoup these costs through a payroll tax credit. So details kind of in the regulations or in some of the sites, including the National Council of non profit sites I mentioned. But employers can recoup these costs. Employees are getting paid sick leave under these provisions. So that was one of the immediate loss that came out

[00:07:10.84] spk_3:
when you say the workplace must be closed. You mean the organization Shut down. You don’t mean the office closed, do you? Or do you?

[00:07:18.60] spk_0:
If the office is closed and the employees are unable to perform their jobs from home, so if

[00:07:38.18] spk_3:
and unable to be able to work from home Oh, correct. Okay. Okay. Because of the caregiving that they’re providing a correct. All right. Um, can we go to the to the S B a loans. Okay. Is that right?

[00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s that’s one. Probably critical.

[00:08:42.84] spk_3:
Okay, Yes. I want to make sure we exhausted the other. The other information that you had, I want to say just to get started. The S B a site s b a dot gov is very, very simple. I think I was able to understand it, Um s p a dot gov and then you’ll be looking at this basketball size picture of a Corona virus. You can’t possibly miss it on the site, and you just click in there and to learn more. And then you just scroll right down to Corona virus funding options. And then, ah, Pedro opens up with, ah, lot of what we will. Well, it’ll be. It’ll cover what? Gene and I are about to talk about the paycheck protection program. The e i D. L. Which is the economic interest, Economic injury, disaster loan. And then there’s a couple of others too, so it’s really very, very helpful, I think thea CSB a site s p a dot gov um Shall we start with the paycheck protection program gene that that’s also only for employers of 500 or fewer right employees.

[00:09:31.68] spk_0:
Yeah, fewer than 500 employees, including non profit. So really a big point to add that nonprofits are eligible for this. Ah, and agreed that this is an important provision. $349 billion was dedicated towards this. And on the date that we’re recording this tony is the first day that the application theoretically was released. Um, but these loans are available by S from S P a lender’s ah, that would include most F d I C insured banks. But not all of these institutions are ready to implement this, even though the application theoretically came out today. And one of the concerns that everybody is having on day one is that the regulations just came out as an interim rule last night.

[00:09:47.06] spk_3:
Yeah, so that just right, Just Thursday, just last night, something came out. Yeah,

[00:11:04.31] spk_0:
And while the application and and the SP a site makes it look easy, there are a lot of unanswered questions or ambiguities, and that is making with lenders have have a problem. Ah t implement this. Some people are guessing all of the loans are going to run out on day one because $349 billion. Sounds like a lot. But if you say every small business in the country is eligible thio to take this in every small amount profit, there’s only so much that that money is going to last. And there’s a question about whether the lenders are going to prefer their own clients. So their existing clients that have loans with the organizations are they gonna prefer the larger clients because they value their business, for which, you know their banks are going to reach some sort of reward over time. Are they gonna value them ahead? Was a small non profit that’s coming in? So my best advice is to try to go in to your own bank, find out if they are an SP a lender, uh, and make your case to them as quickly as possible. I don’t know that everything will be depleted on day one. I’m That might be the worst case scenario, I believe while Spargo Bank has not started yet because of issues with implementation, So there are there are going to be problems getting this rolling, but once it rolls, the money’s not gonna last very long. So I would say to the extent you can I get your paperwork together very quickly. The SP A site lets you know kind of what type of paperwork is required for this, and there’s not a lot. It’s not like a traditional known as well, tony. I guess that’s maybe the first thing I

[00:11:40.04] spk_3:
should be relaxed some of the some of the requirements and they’ve really streamlined the the application, especially for this. I know for myself, Um, well, we’ll get to the economic injury loan. But just from one day to the next the economic injury loan, the application went from like four different forms you had to fill out last Sunday night to Monday when it was just streamlined, like two or three. It was like there was three screens. You just had a pick selections and make a bunch of certifications, and you were done and it was much more burdensome just the day before.

[00:12:15.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and these things have been changing on the Fly, the paycheck protection program. In the best scenario about this, that nonprofits need to know which. Maybe I shouldn’t have hidden the ball, hit

[00:12:28.73] spk_3:
the ball, start figuring it out. That’s okay,

[00:12:31.40] spk_6:
is

[00:12:32.64] spk_0:
why it’s so great. If you can access, it is it’s alone. That’s forgivable. Meaning that it’s essentially a grant s. Oh, it’s a loan that you’re going to make. And then if you keep up your payroll force, um, you pretty much get to recoup all of it back. And that’s a huge thing, right? To be able to keep your work staff on so that that’s the big point.

[00:13:23.89] spk_3:
And the details of that are in the, uh, in that on that s B a site that I, uh that I that I was suggesting people go to says, You know, you’re if you haven’t kept everybody, you have to rehire everybody, I think, by June 20th or June 30th of this year. But the details are on the SP, a site. It’s really it’s in plain language. It’s really pretty simple to understand what you’re committing to. But even if you know, even if you’re not able to keep up your workforce on and not have it converted to a grant, at least it is. It’s a very favorable

[00:13:32.34] spk_7:
Hello,

[00:13:33.34] spk_0:
right? It’s 0.5% less than 1/2 a percent

[00:13:38.53] spk_3:
and deferred interest is deferred for the 1st 6 months.

[00:13:41.41] spk_0:
Correct? And do on a two years. Right now, though, they’re very likely could be an extension. And we may see variations of this and hopefully, more appropriations of more money. Should they run out of this amount. I I’m pretty sure the federal government knows that this is still phase one. Ah, and they’re going to be additional phases necessary on an individual level as well as on on entity level.

[00:14:15.84] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. Anything more you want to add about Thea about the PPP, The paycheck protection program

[00:14:55.84] spk_0:
show? Sure. So let’s talk about what it what it what the loan is for Andi. That’s exactly what it refers to payroll to paying your payroll. But it also includes utilities interest on your mortgage, not the principal on your mortgage, but interest on your mortgage, uh, and rent. So you and utility so some some occupancy costs and employee costs. And generally the amount of the loan is going to be determined by 2.5 months, essentially 2.5 times the average totally monthly payroll costs based on ah, one year. I’m sorry. Based on the last year. A test period, right that times a 2.5 times monthly payroll costs. That’s something Thio think about as being a huge, huge help at this time.

[00:15:24.31] spk_3:
That’s that’s 10 weeks worth of payroll, plus those of expenses that you mentioned interest on mortgages, utilities, et cetera, And

[00:17:39.70] spk_0:
no collateral. No personal guarantee is not like other S b A loan. So, um, a CZ, long as you’re under 500 employees there, few other qualifications, some of them I’m not so happy about that. You know, if you if you’ve got a criminal record or anything yeah, an indictment, you don’t qualify for it. Um, not not even a conviction there, Justin Indictment. So it’s It’s interesting formulas that would come up with that. I’m sure there was, ah lot of haggling on the floor to get something up quickly, but that’s what we have that there are a lot of details in this one area of confusion that I mentioned tony in BET That’s maybe creating a little bit of headaches for for banks and lenders and also for organizations that are trying to share information about this, including May is what about independent contractor costs. So we talked about payroll and payroll. You know, from a legal accounting standpoint, we’re talking about employees, right? But what if what about the non profits that are paying people? Is independent contractors Ah, and my understanding. And based on the interim rule that came out last night from the S B A. That payroll costs do not include independent contractor costs. Although I’m seeing conflicting information from independent sector and the Council of Now, not the National Council of Nonprofits right now about that issue and partly because the application refers to do you have employees or independent contractors that are reported as 10 90 nines? That’s what the application says, which would lead you to to think that if you can have either or that there must be some benefit if you have independent contractors that you’re paying as well. But part of my rational, I’m thinking that the SP a interim rule is probably right on this issue is that independent contractors, even sole proprietorships, can apply for this loan forgivable loan program, the payroll protection program themselves, so they don’t have to rely on hiring entity to do it for them. They can apply for it directly. So we’re a little confusion. They’re not absolutely clear. I don’t think any of us can say with 100% that we know the truth. Oh,

[00:18:14.34] spk_3:
so at this stage, are you best leaving independent contractors out of your calculation of payroll for purposes of of the PPP just so that you don’t, you know, muddy up your application with a possible problem that would that would hold it up and then knowing that maybe you can go back when you get further guidance? If you’re If you are using a lot of 10 99 contractors, I think this is gonna

[00:18:15.17] spk_0:
be processed very quickly. And

[00:18:18.14] spk_3:
you think they’re gonna get you think they’re gonna gloss over issues like this in the beginning and very possibly clean up later?

[00:19:01.94] spk_0:
Yeah, very possibly. The problem with including the 10 99 contractors, Maybe Twofold. One is that if they weren’t intended to be included, will the government say that’s not gonna be forgivable? And is your budgeting based on you know, making these considering these grants rather than loans? And it very well could be that if you report independent contractors, they may just say No, this isn’t forgivable. The whole thing is alone. That’s one consideration. I don’t think as nonprofits think about this and end the limited amount of money that’s available. They shouldn’t count on this. They should definitely apply for it as quickly as possible. But they shouldn’t 100% count on it being available for them

[00:19:17.72] spk_3:
available and forgivable and unforgivable. That’s Yeah,

[00:19:21.63] spk_0:
that’s correct. That’s a really important. Okay, point. All

[00:19:56.70] spk_3:
right, balance, balance these things as you’re doing your application. You know, maybe get advice from a board member. Certainly legal counsel, if you have that. But but don’t you know, I don’t think you should let these potential problems hang you up and not not participate yet. Get your application in. You know, you might decide not to include your 10 99 contractors. Maybe that’s a decision you make. But you get it in at least for your for your payroll, your payroll, folks, your employees so that you know you could be covered for 10 weeks of, uh, 10 weeks of payroll. I mean, that’s that’s valuable. You get the get the darn thing in, make a decision and get it in one way or the other.

[00:20:22.40] spk_0:
Yeah, and have all the material available, including your independent contractor, information available. They’re asking for it in the application, so your bank will probably help determine whether that they’ll include that in the loan or not. Just bring it all in. Get your paperwork ready. I know everybody’s inundated with work that’s trying to keep things together. Leaders are, and this is worth the time.

[00:20:27.87] spk_3:
Yeah, is 10 weeks of payroll Yes, it’s

[00:20:30.10] spk_0:
time. It’s huge. So you’ve gotta put other things aside to get this done and get it done as early as possible because

[00:20:37.09] spk_3:
of you. You’re talking about the money. All right,

[00:20:39.48] spk_0:
get it, Get it ready early next week, if you can.

[00:20:56.04] spk_3:
Let’s move to the ER the i d l. You know, I hate jargon wth the economic injury disaster loan. Um, this is this is different. This is this is other types of expenses, Gene. Yeah. So it’s

[00:20:56.83] spk_0:
work. It’s a working capital loans essentially. So it could be used for payroll. But if you can’t apply for both in and put the same use for both, So if you ask for apparel protection program loan, you can also ask for an e idea alone for the same reason. But you could ask for a different reason for working capital in another other business costs that you’re gonna have. Um, and again, this is designed for small businesses and small nonprofits. But there’s only $10 billion that’s allocated here, So it’s a lot less than the other program. Yeah, but go ahead and apply for it as early as possible.

[00:21:45.37] spk_3:
Now, this has a great feature. Ah, $10,000 advance. That’s an advance on the loan. And that could be forgivable, right? And that’s it. Get their inherent

[00:21:52.04] spk_0:
right. Even if you get turned down. If you whether you get accepted or not, the $10,000 is years to keep.

[00:21:55.25] spk_3:
Oh, it’s whether you get turned out. So even if you’re approved for the loan, the $10,000 advance is still forgivable. Is that right?

[00:22:01.45] spk_0:
I I believe it needs not. It does not need to be repaid in either case.

[00:22:49.34] spk_3:
Okay, okay. My understanding of it. And they’re saying that this is gonna hit your bank within 3 to 5 days of your application. Now, I already applied for my business more than three days ago and I haven’t gotten it. Hasn’t been quite been five business days. It’s been four on. I haven’t seen it yet. So don’t Don’t be wedded to the 3 to 5 days it’s gonna cause they do ask for your bank account. They ask for your account number, they ask for your routing number. Um, uh, so they are intending to deposit this $10,000 advance quickly, But you know, you may not get it within the 3 to 5 days, but it is forgivable and and it is an advance on the loan, so it comes fast, and then the loan consideration is a longer term process, right? So

[00:23:38.35] spk_0:
it gets paid without them processing the loan at all. And you just get paid based on the application, which is fantastic, um, and, uh, again really something to take advantage of, but limited funds. So go in as early as possible. It’s great, tony, that you went in very early. People should should do that again early next week, and this is separate from the paycheck protection program. But if you do get accepted for the forgiveness of loan under the first act of paycheck protection Program, that we talked about that $10,000 under this sea idea will be counted against the cap on that. So just just note that you can’t double dip here. Okay? Okay, but the loan interest rate is 2.75%. Ah, and the maximum term is 30 years. It’s gonna be dependent upon your credit worthiness. So it follows more standard procedures and the paycheck protection lung, which again doesn’t matter what your credit is. Doesn’t matter if you have outstanding loans or not. The first, the 1st 1 that we talked about the forgivable loans disciplined

[00:24:03.84] spk_7:
a

[00:24:26.00] spk_3:
little tighter requirements. Lending requirements more more typical than then what? They waved for the payroll protection. Her act. Okay. Okay. Um, anything you want to add about economic injury, Disaster loan? The e i D. L again, it’s all this is all very well. Very clearly laid out. Big pictures on the S B, a dot gov website. Yes.

[00:24:35.48] spk_0:
I guess I’ll just say that it’s available also for debt payment. So your your ongoing business expenses, including debt payment.

[00:25:21.30] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, so we got some longer term relief. Uh, regarding the charitable income tax, the federal charitable income tax deduction that we, uh, you know, in the ER in the tax and, well, I don’t forget the formal name, Tax and Jobs Act. Ah, there was, uh, there was a reduction in the It took away an incentive for non itemizers to make charitable gif ts. And so And we’ve seen some hit there because the vast moon is that the vast majority the majority of people do not itemize their taxes. Uh, but we got some. We got some relief. So the

[00:27:17.08] spk_0:
tax cuts and jobs act from Thank you your job back from a couple of years ago raised the standard deduction, almost doubling it. The impact of that is it left about 8% of the taxpayers itemizers, so it’s a very, very small portion that actually get the benefit of a charitable contribution deduction. Because the charitable contribution deduction is one of the itemized deductions that you get. So more than 90% of taxpayers get no tax benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction until this act until the cars that came into play. Now, this is only a one year provisions, but I’m hope it’s a precursor for a change in the law to allow for a universal deduction so that there’s more equity across every taxpayer for getting some sort of benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction. So now it looks like it’s on Lee applicable to those generally who are a little bit more wealthier than others, that that have the ability to itemize, taxes, their deductions and get a tax benefit from that and this above the line deduction. How accountants refer to it It’s for $300 so anybody who makes a contribution can get $300 off if it’s to a qualifying charity. And some of the big charities that do not qualify donor advised funds. That’s kind of an important want to note. So don’t advice funds typically used by a little bit more wealthier individual that would tend to itemize taxes their tax returns. But that will not qualify. And that helps to get the money into the stream of operating charities quicker than those that are sort of keeping funds in accounts for years without a that payment respect provisions.

[00:28:33.24] spk_3:
I’m hoping that that $300 will increase in the future, but at least as you said, it’s a start. It’s It’s $300 up to $300 per per taxpayer. And it’s just for this year 2020 so that anyone itemizing or not, could get at least that much. $300 uh, removed from, you know, exempt from, um, you’re from your taxable income or, well, I’m getting into the weeds about how it’s calculated. Let’s not go there. You get it. You have a federal charitable income tax deduction, if you’re if you’re a non itemizers up to $300. So that’s something that when you when you are making your fundraising messaging again because we will get back to that, there will be times when will be the right time for you to talk about your needs and how your donors can help you fill. Those is maybe even these especially critical and unbudgeted needs. You can make it clear that, ah, that nine non itemizers among your donors can I get a federal income tax charitable deduction for up to $300. That may move some people. I

[00:29:32.64] spk_0:
think there’s an op ed. I can’t remember if it was in the Chronicle of Philanthropy or not earlier this week. Tony, that talked about the need to give to smaller charities at this time. Those were the ones that are gonna be really struggling. And if you really value a small charity, this $300 deduction that you wouldn’t have received before may be just what, you know, tip some people over to helping the small charities. And I’m hoping that that’s that’s true. I’m not sure what type of impact this will have for most people who are probably very fearful right now about where their income is coming from. A lot of unemployment going on right now. And there’s some chairs act provisions that deal with unemployment that we can talk about two. But it’s a scary time, but there will be a time when we’re back. Fundraising. Yeah, this is This is gonna be important, as is the case for a little bit, um, of the wealthier er taxpayer. That is capped by the amount of deductions that can take for charitable contribution. And the traditional cap had been 50% of their adjusted gross income. And if it was a cash donation, the tax cuts and job, Zack said. 60% of your adjusted gross income was your cap of how much you could take for charitable contribution deduction. So if you made $100,000 in adjusted gross income that you were going to report to the I. R. S, you could take up to a $50,000 or if it was a cash contribution to a charity $60,000 deduction off that amount, that was the limitation. This year, that limit is gone. So if you wanted to donate 100,000 of your $100,000 adjusted gross income, you could take a deduction for the full amount.

[00:30:21.51] spk_3:
Yeah, and this is this is a provision that’s mostly for the wealthy. Very few donors bump up against the limitations against there adjusted gross income in in their charitable deductions that it’s not very common, right. But we got some. We got some relief

[00:30:34.24] spk_0:
for older people who may not make very much an income anymore. That’s that’s maybe the primary beneficiary of this. To the extent that they have still disposable income to to provide for charitable giving.

[00:32:03.00] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, Gene. Sound good sounds get all right. I want to Thank you very much for doing this. Ah, you know, E. I usually give you a lot more Notice Thio to put a show together. So So thank you. Thank you very much for helping with this special episode. Because I know I know it helps our listeners. That’s that’s really the key. Thanks, Gene. Thanks so much. And I want to remind listeners that were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers Karl Mayer off Sam Lee Woods is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and the music you’ll be hearing shortly because it’s hard to put it in right over this when it’s on the fly. Special episode is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. Many thanks to Sam, Susan and Mark for helping me get this special episode out to you quickly and, of course, to Jean as well for your for your time on fly, Jean. Thank you. You with me? Next time for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Stay safe and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for December 20, 2019: Impeachment, Say What? & #SaveDotOrg

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My Guests:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Impeachment, Say What?
What’s your nonprofit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What’re your employees allowed to say, where and when? Gene Takagi has the answers. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward: #SaveDotOrg
There’s a possibility that management of the .org domain will be privatized. The #SaveDotOrg movement thinks that’s a bad idea. NTEN is part of the opposition movement and Amy Sample Ward explains why. She’s our technology and social media contributor and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.14] spk_1:
Hello

[00:00:41.93] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the love, their 95% under aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn extra tropic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Impeachment. Say what? What’s your non profit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What do your employees allowed to say, where and when? Jean Takagi has the answers.

[00:00:43.68] spk_3:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group,

[00:00:51.04] spk_2:
then save dot or GE. There’s a possibility

[00:00:53.45] spk_3:
that management of the dot org’s domain will be privatized. Save dot org’s movement thinks that’s a bad

[00:00:59.84] spk_2:
idea, and 10 is part

[00:01:01.88] spk_3:
of the opposition movement. And Amy Sample Ward explains why she’s our technology and social

[00:01:06.93] spk_2:
media contributor and CEO of 10 on tony Steak, too.

[00:01:14.04] spk_3:
Thank you for 2019 were

[00:01:14.24] spk_2:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:54.24] spk_3:
Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and I’m hoping that we’re gonna welcome Jean Takagi back. Do we have him? We’re trying. OK, uh, he’s in. Is he in the conference? Okay, we’re trying to call the conference, so I don’t know. Gene probably cannot hear us. So what we’re gonna be talking about is, um,

[00:02:02.93] spk_2:
some some stuff on, uh, what’s permissible

[00:02:37.85] spk_3:
for 501 See three’s to talk about, um, whether it’s around impeachment or the election election earing things like, Are you allowed to host a candidates forum? Candidates debate. Um, what about promoting issues versus candidates? What do your employees allowed to do? And that’s Ah, that’s what we’ll be covering. We’re gonna

[00:02:38.21] spk_2:
do Jeanne Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne de la machine. We got him. Jean Takagi is the managing attorney of Neo,

[00:02:44.28] spk_3:
the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non

[00:03:02.08] spk_2:
profit lawyer. He’s at G tak. Welcome, Jean Jean. Great. Ah, great to have you. I know you were there, but we were having

[00:03:04.94] spk_3:
trouble getting in. But now we’re now we’re in, You’re in and we’re

[00:03:12.26] spk_2:
in and s so it’s a very communal Wonderful Are you doing out there? Looking forward to holidays? I’m sure

[00:03:15.50] spk_5:
I am. How about you turning

[00:03:17.13] spk_2:
very much? Yeah. I love this

[00:03:18.50] spk_3:
time. Uh, we have a couple of weeks off from the show, and I have nothing scheduled for a couple of weeks. So, uh, it’s

[00:03:25.47] spk_2:
good time, too. I mean, I’ll be working light work light, I guess. And good time.

[00:03:30.99] spk_5:
Same way.

[00:03:31.64] spk_3:
Yes. Excellent. Good for you. And

[00:03:33.71] spk_2:
good time for reflection.

[00:03:38.44] spk_3:
I think on the new year, I like that you have any, uh, any goals for Ah, 20

[00:03:42.73] spk_2:
20 that you want to share or anything exciting coming up in 2020.

[00:03:53.29] spk_5:
Really excited. My partner, Aaron, Brad, Rick and I are going to be teaching a course at Columbia University starting in January, so we’re really looking forward to that in their non profit a management program.

[00:03:59.50] spk_3:
Wonderful is not gonna bring you to New York or you teaching virtually.

[00:04:03.29] spk_5:
We’re teaching online, but we may make out a trip itude in New York

[00:04:07.89] spk_2:
trip or two. But you gotta let me know. Of course.

[00:04:10.12] spk_5:
Absolutely.

[00:04:16.83] spk_3:
I mean, unless you want Oh, yeah. I hope you don’t want to stealth in and stealth out. Not not. Talk to me. I certainly wouldn’t do that if I were visiting San Francisco again.

[00:04:20.94] spk_2:
Um, okay, so let’s start with the most timely.

[00:04:30.74] spk_3:
Um, President Trump was impeached two days ago in the U. S. House of Representatives. Um,

[00:04:31.72] spk_2:
what’s, uh what can we talk about?

[00:04:33.38] spk_3:
If we’re 501 c three around that

[00:04:48.90] spk_5:
Well, it’s a great question and, you know, because they’re different types of 501 see threes and different types of non profit. I should make clear that we’re only talking about public charities here. There’s different rules for different other types of organizations, including private foundations for public charities. There’s quite a lot they can talk about.

[00:04:56.93] spk_2:
OK,

[00:04:57.64] spk_5:
we should also differentiate between impeachment, which has already happened, and the removal from office, which is still going to be a matter of legislative action, specifically a supermajority vote by the Senate whenever they get that before them.

[00:05:11.85] spk_3:
And

[00:05:12.57] spk_5:
I know that’s related issues.

[00:05:16.20] spk_2:
Okay, uh, because there go ahead. Yeah. So Well, why? Why? Why do we

[00:05:21.09] spk_3:
distinguish between those two. This is a big

[00:05:24.51] spk_5:
authority happened,

[00:05:25.38] spk_2:
Yeah,

[00:05:32.43] spk_5:
so because it’s already happened, you know, charity are fairly free to comment on

[00:05:33.34] spk_2:
that action. They’re

[00:06:33.93] spk_5:
also free to comment about how they feel about governmental leaders in doing their jobs. And, you know, it might be really important to do so in the context that it may really impact the charity’s mission. And, you know, for example, I would think that charity to mission is to end hunger, for example, for for American suffering from poverty. They might have a great deal to say about the administration’s rule to end food stands for like about 700,000 people. You know, the 700,000 people are making, on average 2200 and $50 a year. And if you want to comment on that at a charity, that’s okay the same way you can comment on the impeachment whether you think that that was proper or not. But what may not be okay if you’re gonna be talking about the electability of that person for or in any way talking about the upcoming election so you can talk about impeachment in and of itself on dhe. Whether it was, you think it was right or it was improper. But you can’t start to talk about, um, or start to influence the upcoming election. So that’s a little bit of a fine line. Thio. Walk on

[00:06:58.93] spk_3:
okay, and we’ll get to the election and election hearing. What about the coming potential removal from office, The trial in the Senate and, you know, advocating one way or the other for what you think. The Senate, your organization thinks because we’re talking about the organization level, we’ll get. Individual employees will get to that, too. But what your organization thinks about removal from office.

[00:07:14.68] spk_5:
So you know, there’s no absolute guidance from the i. R s on the impeachment of the president. Surprise. But, um, there’s It’s generally thought to be attempting to influence the legislative action inaction by the Senate.

[00:07:26.24] spk_2:
The mall’s

[00:07:51.21] spk_5:
within the tax laws, definition of lobbying and not political campaign intervention. So we know that there’s an absolute bar to, um, you know, endorsing or supporting or opposing candidates for public office. That would be election hearing in that not allowed by any type of 5 23 but public charities are allowed to engage in lobbying so long as it’s considered not substantial, and commenting on a potential legislative action like the removal from office action that will fall before the Senate would be considered lobbying. And to the extent that charity can lobbying and there are some limitations involved, the charity would be free to do so. But again, it has to walk that fine line because we are coming up to an election year on. Dhe has to look like it’s not trying to influence the election itself. So you don’t really want to talk about other candidates for office or on the general overall qualities of Trump as a candidate for another four years. But you want to talk. If you want a charity, you want to talk about the removal from office specifically about what, before the Senate. Why, why would he be removed from from the office? So you’re really took ing taking a look at those two articles of impeachment and commenting on the merits of those articles?

[00:09:02.54] spk_3:
Okay, understand? We need to take our first break when we come back very shortly. We’ll, uh, well, we’ll talk more about lobbying and what’s allowed, not allowed there. And, uh, we’re taking a break for, um, for wegner-C.P.As. Of course, in the new year, might you need a C p. A, whose service is excellent, who provides clear directions and timetables and who’s easy to work

[00:09:10.88] spk_2:
with. That’s not me talking.

[00:09:22.82] spk_3:
That’s from the testimony. Old. That’s not my opinion. That’s, Ah, the opinion of someone who’s worked with not with wegner in the past, a CZ you’ve heard the past few weeks. So if you

[00:09:26.02] spk_2:
do talk

[00:09:39.50] spk_3:
to partner, you eat each tomb. He’s a good guy. No pressure wegner-C.P.As dot com And now let’s go back to Jean Takagi and Impeachment. Say what? Okay, we’re

[00:09:39.89] spk_2:
allowed to do some

[00:09:56.68] spk_3:
lobbying, you said, as long as it’s not substantial. Uh, how do we measure substantiality? Substantial ability. Substantiality substantiality. I think it’s I think that’s what This How do we make whatever helps called Republic

[00:10:33.26] spk_5:
charities there Two ways to measure it? Sort of. The default way is just what the law cost backs and circumstances, and that leaves it up to the Iraq to determine whether you’ve engaged in too much lobbying or not. And if you want to challenge it, ultimately, a court and nobody really wants to go down that route. So, you know, professionals typically uses guidelines. You know, there was this old case that said, you know, 5% of your resource is that should be okay that, you know, anything under 5% should be okay. You want to think about your expenditures, your volunteer time? You know the amount of publication space you’re giving all of those things. If it’s about 5% or less of your resource is you’re probably not too worried about exceeding the lobbying threshold under that backs in circumstances.

[00:10:42.37] spk_3:
Okay, Yeah. 55 percents pretty low.

[00:10:46.35] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s pretty low. Um, but, you know,

[00:10:48.39] spk_3:
for some

[00:11:26.97] spk_5:
organization, that’s all they want to do. But you know, the better choice for the vast majority of charities. And I would say, almost the no brain and choice for charities that are not churches who are ineligible to do this but share other charities that are eligible to make the 5018 lobbying election. I’m. And that that is just a basically 1/2 page born where you put name, address and check a box on it. If you make that election of the charity which could do it any time at all. Um, you get thio, measure your lobbying strictly by your lobbying expenditures, and the limits are just so much more generous.

[00:11:27.98] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:11:28.59] spk_5:
so it’s 20% of your 1st $500,000 of what they call exempt purpose expenditures or mission related expended

[00:11:36.12] spk_3:
choker.

[00:11:36.75] spk_5:
20% of that

[00:11:40.62] spk_3:
100 $100,000 right there and it’s it’s deemed non substantial.

[00:11:46.76] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah, And there’s a separate limit for grassroots lobbying, which is lobbying a different type of lobbying, where you’re not going straight to a legislative body or an employee or member of the legislative body. But you’re going to the public and you’re asking them to contact a member of the legislative body and you have a called action included in that. So if it’s grassroots lobbying, it’s 25% of that total lobbing limit.

[00:12:11.99] spk_3:
But

[00:12:51.64] spk_5:
expenditure limits under Bible one h are much, much more generous than that 5% kind of rule of thumb that we look at the other time again. Um, a big, big tip for any public charity that wants to, um, discuss the removal from from office, um, stay positions on that before it gets to the Senate or wallets in the Senate, the 501 each election could made and be made any time. And it will be effective for the year. And would you make the election? If you decide you don’t want to, you know, continue electing it. Which might be the case for super big charities. Um, where the 5% could actually be, You know, a lot of money you could, you know, revoke your election that anytime after as well by just filing the same form and checking a different box. So a no brainer election for most public charity.

[00:13:00.35] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. So and we’ve talked

[00:13:15.52] spk_3:
about this before. I was probably the April 2016 which was the last election year. Um, you and I talked about advocacy generally, and I think the 501 h came up then. So you’re still a five. A one c three. You’re just making this 501 h election for the year.

[00:13:23.94] spk_5:
Right? So

[00:13:24.75] spk_2:
what do you

[00:13:25.08] spk_5:
make it?

[00:13:25.49] spk_2:
Your sort

[00:13:26.16] spk_5:
of permanently on that until you revoke it. But all it does that 501 age super easy election to make this thing. We don’t want to tell the IRS everything about our lobby. We just want the IRS to measure our lobbying on what was spent. We don’t want to try to estimate volunteer time How much of our office space is dedicated to lobby? We just want to tell them exactly what we spent and recorded on our financial for a lot. So, so much easier to report, so much easier to track. The limits are much easier. And if you violate it, if you go over the lobbying limits without the election, that facts and circumstances test.

[00:14:00.03] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:14:00.37] spk_5:
you violated in any one year, you can lose your Bible. One secret that

[00:14:04.58] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:14:04.93] spk_5:
But if you make the election, you have to violate it over a four year period, not just one year, but over a four year rolling calendar. And then you have violated by more than 50%.

[00:14:16.61] spk_3:
Wow. Okay, so that

[00:14:18.03] spk_5:
that’s just so much more advantageous.

[00:14:39.09] spk_3:
It is sort of a no brainer. And for those much generous, much more generous limits. Okay, cool. All right. 501 inch. Thank you, G. Um, what about our our individual employees? What are in terms of what resource is they’re using when they speak, when they when they speak publicly? What? What are the rules around employees?

[00:15:56.92] spk_5:
Well, you know, first thing to recognize is is individual tax First Amendment rights, right? So they have the freedom of speech. They have the freedom to say whatever they want. Charities shouldn’t control what you know their employees or their directors or officers are saying in their individual capacity. But they should control what they’re saying as representative speaking on behalf of the charities. So there’s that distinction to make so again don’t control what you know your your employees and your staff members and volunteers are saying about impeachment or removal or any other wegner slate of action or political endorsement. But make sure that they don’t use any charity. Resource is in doing so, and that’s really important. Don’t let them use their work email address. Don’t let them use the work. Tell a boat. Don’t let them perform those activities. If they’re, they’re, you know, working on campaigns in the office and the charity’s office. And if they should put their name on with the name of their employer, which is a charity on like an endorsement list of a political candidate. Make sure that there’s some sort of Astra’s back says that the name of their employer is only listed there for identification purposes and doesn’t represent an endorsement by the charity itself.

[00:16:22.14] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Um and so what? What employees do on there personal time and their personal Facebook Twitter email all all, uh, really of no concern to the to the charity.

[00:16:28.54] spk_5:
Yeah, but social media is actually a good point about hitting that gray area, tony, because you probably follow your twitter, tony. So you

[00:16:37.06] spk_2:
probably follow you

[00:16:42.79] spk_5:
individuals who are on Twitter who have both their name and their charity affiliation like listed?

[00:16:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah, in

[00:16:55.29] spk_5:
their account, it might be in their Twitter handle, or it might be in their short bio underneath. You know, the Twitter handle. And that’s where it becomes kind of tricky. Who does that Twitter handle belong to? Does it belong to the individual or doesn’t belong to the charity And could the chair to get in trouble if there is a political endorsement or a statement of opposition to a candidate for public office?

[00:17:12.21] spk_2:
Yeah, I always

[00:18:04.09] spk_3:
have presumed. Although I’ve never followed upto see whether my presumption is, uh is accurate that someone who has the charity name in there either in their handle or, as you say in their short Twitter bio, has another account that doesn’t talk about the charity, Asai said. I never have investigated to see whether they do or not. I’m following their charity account. Um, so maybe maybe people don’t. But that would seem like the better the better practice. And especially if, I mean, shouldn’t that be in a, ah charities social media policy that if you’re going to use the charity name, you know, there are prohibitions around what you can do with that and then and we encourage you? Or we insist that you have, ah, private well non A non charity Twitter account for all other all other non work purposes.

[00:18:56.44] spk_5:
Yeah, conservatively. You know, I kind of like that type of policy, tony. But for practical purposes, it’s kind of like our president or or Hillary Clinton when she was running, separating their kind of personal accounts from their work account. Um, there they are co mingled all the time, and not just by charities and their employees, but by four profit in their employees, so disclaimers can work outright prohibitions and requirements that they have a separate, Um, a Twitter account or face social media account may be helpful at times, but often times you know they’re just going to combine the two. So, um, just be careful about that one thing about, you know, sort of the election hearing prohibition that you can’t endorse or oppose the political candidate. One thing did note is that the Republican Party platform and President Trump himself said they really don’t like that Prohibition often referred to as the Johnson

[00:19:14.09] spk_3:
and Johnson

[00:19:14.70] spk_5:
talked about that before.

[00:19:16.87] spk_2:
Well, they

[00:19:17.05] spk_5:
want to get rid of it, although most the vast majority of charities. And I think the mast majority of churches. I don’t want to get rid of it because I could turn all charities into these election vehicles for where donors say, You know, I’m not gonna give you this donation unless he said a message to all of your members and donors of, you know, in support of a political candidate, and that would suddenly be okay.

[00:20:05.12] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s we’ve been talking. We talked about that. Probably when it around the time it first became a proposal, or at least well, I guess it’s been in the platform. The party platform, you’re saying. But there was some There was more talk about it, I don’t know. A year and 1/2 for two years ago, and we, you and I discussed the Johnson Amendment. Um, it hasn’t happened. Maybe because of the nonprofit community opposition. What what’s your scent? You were you were monitoring that very closely. What’s your sense of where it stands?

[00:20:57.67] spk_5:
Yeah, you know, I think the non profit community’s opposition was very, very helpful in that there were there were others who were opposing it. A CZ well, with a matter of policy. And I think as people got more educated about it, it became less and less popular. Um, it was a way for dark money. T sort of enter into the political system where we didn’t really know where the sources were in. People were getting tax deductions on top of it. So it’s something that be really bad. But the reason why I brought it up here is because if an organization wasn’t quite sure, it was speaking out on impeachment or removal from office, and you know we may be crossing that line. Well, conservatively, I would say, Yeah, the closer we are to election time, you’ve got to be careful even within the bounds that I said that it might be a lobbying activity and not, uh uh, banned political campaign activity. But closer do you are to election that could turn into what looks like a political campaign activity. If you’ve never spoken about the impeachment itself, and you just never it looks like your charity was never interested in the issue until just like, you know, a few months before the election with the

[00:21:25.32] spk_2:
happened that

[00:21:48.92] spk_5:
looks like this casted election hearing communication. But overall, I’m not sure that the I. R s and the current executive branch is really that interested in enforcing the political prohibition laws because, you know, doesn’t resonate with what their messaging has been. Maybe a little bit risk. And it would have been for four years ago.

[00:21:49.85] spk_2:
Okay? Yeah. You still

[00:21:56.54] spk_3:
want to err on the side of caution, right? I mean, I, you know, because they there could be some exception to their enforcement activity or priorities or something. So but

[00:22:01.99] spk_2:
you’re you’re the

[00:22:11.33] spk_3:
conservative conservative guy, at least in terms of legal legal advice of the legal advice side. You know, um, least that’s Yeah,

[00:22:13.26] spk_2:
that’s always been your You. You’ve always been cautious

[00:22:15.77] spk_3:
about advice you give. Yeah,

[00:22:41.47] spk_5:
Yeah, I think when we have a lot of smaller to medium sized organizations amongst the client, there’s just less risk capital, you know, private foundation with, you know, $10 billion might have a little bit Arjun for taking a risk and maybe fighting it in court if they felt like the I r s sir. Uh, neutrino general not correct in their interpretation of whether a lot was violated. But for most small and medium sized charities, they can’t afford to have that battle.

[00:22:49.70] spk_2:
We’ve been

[00:23:15.61] spk_3:
talking mostly about candidates. You mentioned a little bit about issues, but let’s make issues issues clearer versus candidates. Are you saying that if you’re non profit now, as an organization has has been following an issue for a long time and not just doesn’t just start commenting, you know, 60 or 90 days before an election, then eyes that part of the facts and circumstances test for people who don’t for organizations that don’t take the 501 h election. Is that Is that one factor?

[00:24:01.94] spk_5:
Well, just commenting on issues themselves, it was If it isn’t stating a position on a piece of legislation, you’re free to do that all you want. So if you’re educating the public about a particular issue, whether it be climate change or, um, you know, immigration, um, you couldn’t talk about broader issues and educate the public. You know, if you’re giving material facts and you’re doing it in a non part of objective and fair manner, that that should be sort of a fundamental thing of what you do if it’s gonna help further your mission. But when you start to comment on a particular piece of law or legislation and say, you know, this is either a good piece of legislation or this is a bad piece of legislation

[00:24:11.27] spk_3:
or this

[00:24:11.70] spk_5:
new legislation that we need now you’re entering into the realm of lobbying and subject to those limits that we just discussed the 501 h limits or the the facts and circumstances with

[00:24:26.22] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um,

[00:24:28.72] spk_2:
you still there, June? I am okay. Yeah. You

[00:24:41.39] spk_3:
Ah ah, word or a syllable at a time seems to pop out, and then it got quiet. So I I, uh I got concerned. Okay, You’re still with us. All right. Good. Um, thank you for flushing that out.

[00:24:43.22] spk_2:
What else? What else

[00:24:44.49] spk_3:
do you think listeners need to know?

[00:26:06.27] spk_5:
Well, there are all sorts of other things that public charities do around election time. Um, you know, they can’t endorsers support any candidates for public office, But the concert, we engage in voter registration and get out the boat drives. You see that all over the place, and you’re gonna continue to see it over the next year. So a CZ longer again there, you know, conducted in the neutral, non partisan matter without reference to, you know, any of the specific candidates or political parties, you can host a candidate debate or forum. I think many of you have seen those, uh, you know, hosted by a public charity. And again, the purpose of the, uh, debates reform should be for educating the public. So you have to be very careful about not doing it in a partisan man is not with leading questions or a selective choice of topics that that might influence the public one way or the other. Be careful about your selection of moderators and how you comment on the candidate’s response. Yes, I want to be careful about the time allotted to each candidate. You know, it would be very wrong if you allowed just one candidate. If there is, it just came down to the presidential race, for example, and you let one party’s candidates speak for 90% of the time and the other candidates to be 10% of the time. It will be pretty clear where that charity is leaning.

[00:26:28.95] spk_3:
Okay, So to borrow the old Fox News motto, you need to be fair and balanced, but not fair and balanced like they were where a court ruled that they were de facto, not fair and balanced. Need to be really fair and balance. I think

[00:26:29.39] spk_5:
that’s that’s right,

[00:26:30.53] spk_2:
and and

[00:26:35.50] spk_5:
obviously a charity will have its own mission statement to think about. But they’ve got a sort of put it in their back pocket a little bit when they’re designing those type of debates. Reformed Also, voter guides, Kennedy questionnaires, um, also permissible and even candidate appearances. If you’re providing equal opportunity for all candidates, you see that on television is Wow.

[00:27:05.64] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um well, we have just about a minute or so left. Uh, what? Ah, what do you want to leave us with for the for the year on this topic?

[00:27:17.93] spk_5:
Well, I think I’ll just say I think people should be really active in their advocacy. In furtherance of their mission. There are a few resources that are out there. Board sources stand for your mission. Campaign has some excellent resource is on the Alliance for Justice gives you more than mechanics of what I’ve been talking about. What type of advocacy, What type of lobbying, what type of political activities public charities could do on. There’s some nuances to all of this. There’s another layer of election law that may be on top of all of the tax law we’ve been talking about. So those resources are good places to go and go ahead and advocate as much as you can for your mission.

[00:27:58.17] spk_3:
Junior. So modest. Another very good source is non profit law blawg, which is at non profit law blogged dot com. And Jeanne, I wish you lots of

[00:28:01.34] spk_2:
let’s of enjoyment, lots of good time.

[00:28:03.07] spk_4:
Uh, I

[00:28:03.64] spk_3:
hope you enjoy your holidays and the New Year

[00:28:07.14] spk_5:
Happy holidays to you and your family. Tony,

[00:28:28.89] spk_3:
thank you very much, Gene. It’s a pleasure. And thank you so much for what you’ve done for 2019 and what we’re looking forward to. In 2020 he’s Jean Takagi, my pleasure, managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group. He edits that non profit log log, and he’s at G Tak. Now it’s time for a

[00:28:33.08] spk_2:
break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits The same nonprofits we’ve been talking about, the ones, the ones we all know. Non profit radio, for God’s sake. What does that mean For you?

[00:29:00.64] spk_3:
That means fund accounting. No more spreadsheets to manage your restricted grant funds. Also fraud prevention and exceptional customer service. You’ve heard all that in the testimonials. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now let’s transition,

[00:29:03.15] spk_4:
uh,

[00:29:03.88] spk_2:
subtly, but ah, but smoothly, uh, suddenly and

[00:29:27.75] spk_3:
smoothly to tony stick to and my thanks for you. Our listener. Listeners in 2019 were the number one podcast for nonprofits. Most listened to, uh, most longest running, most consistently produced, most sponsored just generically. Overall, you can say Number one podcast for nonprofits. And

[00:29:35.00] spk_2:
that’s because we have so many listeners. So I am grateful

[00:29:49.24] spk_3:
to you. Thank you for your listening If you have shared the show. I appreciate that as well. Thank you for that. That’s how we grow the audiences by listeners sharing what? What

[00:29:49.94] spk_2:
they believe is good content. So thank you with you. Listen, live or archive.

[00:29:54.54] spk_4:
It

[00:30:13.47] spk_3:
makes no difference. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to see my thank you wishes from the Chesapeake Bay, then you can view the video at my thank you video. Thank you so much. We

[00:30:13.61] spk_2:
have a B sample ward. We do not have

[00:30:55.80] spk_3:
any sample word. She hasn’t called into the conference line yet. Okay, well, uh, when when we do connect with her, um, we will be talking about save dot org’s. The issue is that the dot org’s domain that we all use I don’t use you all use. I actually don’t use I’m dot com for my for my business. Um, but you all use it. You know how important it is. There’s the potential that it will be managed by, ah company ethos, which is the water, you know, you may know ethos water. Um, that’s the company that may gain control of the dot or domain. And Amy and I will talk about how these things are all managed. Um, we

[00:31:03.55] spk_2:
have Amy as Amy called in yet

[00:31:40.84] spk_3:
means not. Okay, So what we’re gonna do is, um Let’s do the live listener. Love will do that. And if you will give me a nen dull Jin ce for a few seconds, I’m gonna get my phone and share with Emily. Amy sample Ward’s contact info so that Emily can text and call Amy. So hang on while I get my phone. Okay? The dreaded dead airtime.

[00:31:43.74] spk_2:
But I told

[00:32:11.54] spk_3:
you was coming. So, uh, you had you had time to prepare, so it should not have been dreadful. Uh, for you, So I’m getting her in my pulling up in my contacts. Okay, Emily, Here you go. There’s the ways to contact Amy. Sample word. Please Do use my phone actually, or whatever you want to use. All right, so we’ll be talking about dot Organ. There’s a movement. Does The hashtag is saved dot or Ge? Well, I’m only works

[00:32:29.19] spk_2:
on that. Let’s do the lifeless in love and it is extensive. My gosh, Um let’s go abroad first. Tokyo, Japan! Oh, konnichi wa Ramat Gone Israel! Welcome, Live! Listen, love to Israel as well as Japan. Gwangju, South Korea. You’ve

[00:32:35.28] spk_3:
been with us before. Gwangju. Thank you so much. Seoul, South Korea as well. Um

[00:32:41.53] spk_2:
Brazil. Mina Mina Gerais meant Minas Gerais. Jakarta, Indonesia,

[00:32:42.64] spk_3:
Capital of Indonesia, of

[00:33:07.84] spk_2:
course. Live! Listen, love Thio. Each of our foreign listeners and they continue coaching men city in Vietnam. And, uh, well, we see Vietnam from time to time. Thank you. Live low about to Vietnam and touch skin sherry in Uzbekistan. Yeah, it was Pakistan. Not too often, but we’ve heard from you before. So very glad. Very glad you’re with us. Who’s Becca? Stan? Vietnam, Indonesia, Brazil, South Korea, Israel, Japan.

[00:33:20.68] spk_3:
Multiple. South Korea, of course. Want credit that live? Listen, love. After each of those, uh, countries and coming abroad, we’ve got, um Brooklyn, New

[00:33:24.94] spk_2:
York, Cheyney State Park, Kansas. That’s interesting. Cheyney State Park. Are you actually in the state park? You can, uh that’s interesting. You listening from the State Park. Wonderful. I’m a very

[00:33:43.26] spk_3:
big advocate of state parks. Public lands. You got it. You gotta have park. That used to be the motto in New York City, but it applies throughout the country. Doesn’t matter. Of course you gotta have park green space. Um,

[00:33:49.29] spk_2:
Ashburn, Virginia. San Francisco, California, Tampa, Florida, Fairfield, Connecticut. Live love everywhere. We’ve got her. Okay, well, on the heels of the live love Let’s see now we got to make her wait,

[00:33:55.85] spk_3:
because there’s no way that I’m doing a lot of love without the podcast pleasantry. So now she’s gonna

[00:33:59.60] spk_2:
have to wait. She called in late. It’s our own fault. Um, the podcast pleasantries are over 13,000 listeners.

[00:34:06.65] spk_3:
You heard me say it on Tony’s Take Two. But

[00:34:09.17] spk_2:
I’m grateful. Thank you so

[00:34:10.49] spk_3:
much for being a part of our listener audience. The podcast listeners. Thank you.

[00:34:23.20] spk_2:
Any sample Ward. She’s our social media and technology contributor and the CEO of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change Anytime, everywhere

[00:34:26.74] spk_3:
about online multi channel engagement. She’s

[00:34:32.63] spk_2:
that amy sample ward dot org’s oh dot org’s. This is considered a potential personal personal threat dot ord and she’s at a me RS ward. Any sample ward. Welcome back.

[00:34:53.87] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m not sure what happened. I’ve been trying since, like, 10 20 to get in. And I assume I always assume user error trying to re dial, and it never let me in.

[00:34:57.38] spk_2:
Okay, Well, we had the same trouble

[00:34:58.91] spk_3:
here, actually trying to connect with Jean Takagi. We saw that he was in the conference system, but we couldn’t get in ourselves to connect with him so on. And so it’s probably not user error times, too. There’s something flunky.

[00:35:12.16] spk_2:
And the reason we’re using

[00:35:21.69] spk_3:
this conference system and rather than having you call the studio directly, which we almost always do, is because there’s some problem with the with

[00:35:21.81] spk_2:
the phone line. Four lines? Yeah.

[00:35:23.94] spk_3:
So we’re using the conference line. Of course, we need the phone line to get the company line, But

[00:35:33.87] spk_2:
anyway, well, you’re a technology technologist, our technology contributor. It’s wonderful until it fails. I mean, I’m almost I’m almost sorry for saying this. I do apologizing. That was gratified that you have trouble with technology too.

[00:35:43.21] spk_0:
Oh, don’t worry. People are always so happy when an 10

[00:35:46.72] spk_2:
says that something

[00:35:48.02] spk_0:
that happened because it’s so validating.

[00:35:51.43] spk_2:
You

[00:36:22.00] spk_0:
know, it happens to all of us, because at the end of the day, all these tools, they’re just tools, right? They’re not perfect systems. Humans built all of them and humans that themselves. They’re not perfect. So things are bound to happen. But I think it’s really interesting the way folks respond when something, you know, technological is happening. That is not what they want. You know, the folks who get really frustrated and upset, and it’s like, Well, sure, But you know, how far is that getting

[00:36:23.35] spk_2:
you

[00:36:24.02] spk_0:
or the folks who are like, Oh, I’m gonna you know, like MacGyver my way around, just like you all did. So good. Good for you for having a productive response,

[00:36:34.73] spk_2:
Thank you very much. And for you as well.

[00:36:36.44] spk_3:
You kept trying. And, uh, I could I could imagine that your frustration was growing as 10 30 Pacific time came and went, which is the time I I was expecting your call. I can imagine your heart rate was rising blood pressure as well. But you

[00:36:51.11] spk_2:
mean I mean,

[00:36:51.78] spk_0:
what could you know? I usually like to dial in early and listen.

[00:36:54.52] spk_3:
Yes.

[00:36:55.08] spk_0:
And so I tried. But

[00:36:57.23] spk_2:
you know, to know about it

[00:37:00.06] spk_0:
anyway, here I am.

[00:37:04.26] spk_2:
Indeed, let’s talk about save dot or ge I While we were waiting

[00:37:06.00] spk_3:
for you, I was introducing the topic. I explained the listeners that there’s the potential that the dot org’s domain could be managed by a private company

[00:37:20.46] spk_2:
ethos My saying that right? Or they are ethos right ethos. Okay, which is the water that they’re also there? I think

[00:37:25.44] spk_3:
they’re best known for water. At least that’s the way I know them. Their social.

[00:37:26.07] spk_2:
No, they’re

[00:37:26.36] spk_0:
brand new, so I don’t think they’re best known for anything.

[00:37:29.42] spk_3:
Oh, listen to the oh, we’re

[00:37:37.08] spk_2:
already getting. They’re already getting some attitude about this subject. All right there, Brandon. E. Hear it? I heard the tone. I know you. I heard that tone. All right, so this is not the ethos water company,

[00:37:42.12] spk_0:
brand new

[00:37:42.83] spk_2:
private

[00:37:43.21] spk_0:
equity firm.

[00:37:43.81] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, brand new

[00:37:45.14] spk_3:
private equity firm. Okay. I didn’t know it was brand new. I just kept seeing equity from All right. So

[00:37:49.39] spk_2:
let’s introduce, I think to get our way into this, we need to understand how

[00:37:54.06] spk_3:
this domain the dot org’s domain is managed. I mean, and I know you’ll be right. I know you’ll be judicious about acronyms because you don’t want to end up in jargon jail S o, I

[00:38:05.01] spk_2:
think. But I think it helps to understand how this

[00:38:07.05] spk_3:
thing this dot org’s is managed.

[00:38:13.47] spk_0:
Right. Okay, so I’m going to try and explain in some somewhat basic terms.

[00:38:18.47] spk_2:
Okay, But then

[00:38:22.62] spk_0:
I will rely on you to interject questions or fast forward or pause, you know, as I go.

[00:38:26.84] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:39:42.59] spk_0:
Okay. So the internet, everyone listening has used it. I’s probably using it to listen even And we know that website, You know, we don’t just write non profit radio. We write non profit radio dot whatever, and the part of the website that comes at the dot whatever follows is called a top level domain. So there cannot. We can’t just go make one up. Those top level domains are managed, and there’s only so many of them. And I can they use the acronym I can as their name, which stands for Internet Corporation for assigned names and numbers. There you can kind of think about them is like the body that’s mento. Organize the Internet, So they’re the ones that say OK, you know, we’re allowed to use dot com and dot or GE and dot I owe and dot. Whatever else, they’re kind of the keepers of the order. So they are involved in olive ist as those keepers of the order. Okay, The next group we need to talk about is the Internet society that is a nonprofit organization, and their mission is essentially to promote a globally connected and trustworthy Internet.

[00:39:48.31] spk_3:
Okay, listeners may see the acronym I s O. C, right. Let’s

[00:39:54.36] spk_2:
have the night knock Internet society yet.

[00:40:31.46] spk_0:
So, almost 20 years ago there, when I can waas working to continue their their work and managing those top level domains, uh, they bid tohave the contract for the dot org’s domain. And there was a lot of conversation about the value of a non profit managing the top level domain that’s essentially four non profit right instead of a four profit domain registrar.

[00:40:36.01] spk_2:
So I can I can is itself a non profit. Yes, okay.

[00:42:38.49] spk_0:
And Internet society is non profit, and they they won the dot or contract, and in the process of that, created another non profit called public interest registry PR, which would be the organization that owned the contract and operationally managed it. But P I. R. Was connected to Internet society, so Internet Society was choosing the board for P i. R. And revenue kickbacks went to Internet society, that kind of thing. So there very closely related as organizations. You No one is like the owner of the other. And for the last, like 18 years or so, PR has managed the dot or domain, and their work has included managing that. Making sure that there’s, um, resource is for non profit. They have they have, you know, everything from sponsoring events to funding training programs, Thio investing in research about, you know, the way non prophecies, the Internet. They’ve done lots of things to kind of re invest the money they make into the use of the Internet by non profit, and everyone kind of thought things were fine. Who write things are moving along just fine, and last month’s just over a month ago from today. All of a sudden, there was an announcement from Andrewsullivan, the executive director of the Internet Society, that they we’re going to sell P. I r to a private equity firm and that it was essentially great news because Internet society would get so much money from the sale that they would create an endowment for themselves. That was kind of position is the only the good news about this was because it would just be so much money for them.

[00:42:44.95] spk_2:
Okay, that was that. That was obviously early day.

[00:42:48.45] spk_3:
That was early day, because I in my research, I didn’t find I didn’t even find that anymore. So that that

[00:42:54.27] spk_2:
must have been that their first position. I’ll tell you what. We got to take our

[00:42:56.90] spk_3:
break, Theo. Only one we need to take. And then you and I can continue to invest the show. Okay. Thank you. Um,

[00:43:04.35] spk_2:
have you ever wondered why some nonprofits

[00:43:13.42] spk_3:
are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do just that. They are themselves former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage.

[00:43:29.45] spk_2:
It’s all about the relationships almost in life. What isn’t There are turn hyphen

[00:43:41.49] spk_3:
to dot ceo, all right. And we have but loads more time for Amy Sample Ward and save dot org’s. Okay, So the initial justification for this well, it’s not really much of a initial rationale. It’s not even it didn’t even didn’t even bother with justification. Just initial rationale was this will be good for I sock will make a lot of money by selling P I R.

[00:43:53.80] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:43:54.31] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:43:59.51] spk_0:
which of course, uh, raise a lot of questions.

[00:44:02.12] spk_2:
A lot of black people.

[00:44:32.91] spk_0:
And now the second piece that we need to talk about happened months before this announcement. So back in the early spring, the contract details for the dot or contract were up for renegotiation with I can and a few things happened in that renegotiation that already have the community kind of in critical response. Those things included some changes to what had, for a long time been part of the contract. One of those was taking away the price cats, so prices could be set at whatever was desired.

[00:44:45.21] spk_2:
The price for

[00:44:47.40] spk_3:
a dot org’s domain is very low, right?

[00:44:50.79] spk_0:
It’s about $10

[00:44:52.71] spk_3:
$10 for the year. Okay,

[00:44:54.88] spk_2:
Okay, you’re more acquainted

[00:44:56.72] spk_3:
with this and I am because I don’t use dot org’s I love Dot or GQ. You know, I make my living at dot org’s, but I don’t I don’t use it personally, All right? So, yeah, it’s $10 a year. Okay, so they’re So the initial conversation about a contract renewal was take away those takeaway a price cap,

[00:45:23.25] spk_0:
take away the price cap, and then some other pieces that essentially made folks feel that it could be organizations with these domains. There’s some vulnerabilities around censorship and that kind of thing.

[00:45:30.91] spk_2:
Okay, So a

[00:45:31.79] spk_0:
number of organizations

[00:45:33.22] spk_2:
and

[00:46:04.28] spk_0:
people had responded to those changes back in the summer and spring saying, you know, Hey, wait a second. This is not right. This does not feel right. This is, you know, longstanding components of the contract. Why’re these Chicken Jane? And despite overwhelming over 3000 responses saying don’t do this, I can. And public interest registry went ahead and the contract gotta prove that way.

[00:46:05.26] spk_3:
Ok, wasn’t I? Sock, actually, isn’t I Sock?

[00:46:09.57] spk_0:
I can

[00:46:10.46] spk_2:
I can. Okay, but I stock

[00:46:12.67] spk_3:
owns public interest registry, right?

[00:46:15.88] spk_0:
Sure. But public interest registry is kind of the manager there. The owner of the contract.

[00:46:21.62] spk_3:
Ok, ok, and they’re the ones who managed the managed. OK, all right, So now

[00:46:43.06] spk_0:
and what is kind of an added so we can think about it as there’s all of these changes happening? And then, isn’t it so convenient that now a private equity firm is willing to pay over a $1,000,000,000 for this contract that no longer includes price caps and includes some vulnerabilities around?

[00:46:50.72] spk_2:
Wait. Oh, I hold on. I didn’t see that. The price tag is over a $1,000,000,000.

[00:46:57.22] spk_0:
$1.12 billion.

[00:47:11.85] spk_2:
Wow. Okay, I did not see that. I was I was wondering, but I hope she’s okay. So All right, so the question All right, So let’s let’s fast forward now. You aren’t

[00:47:20.74] spk_0:
even following who don’t. Maybe you don’t even work in a non profit that has a doubt or domain. You can already see from, like a, you know, business magazine perspective. What? What seems questionable about the situation?

[00:47:29.30] spk_2:
How the hell are they? How the hell is going to make all that money back, right? Yes. On the backs of

[00:47:34.24] spk_3:
America’s 1.3 million charities.

[00:47:37.88] spk_0:
Well, and keep in mind, this is for the entire globe. this is non profit over the entire

[00:47:43.35] spk_2:
world way. Talk

[00:47:49.38] spk_0:
about wanting to have a human rights lens on reviewing this transaction. When we talk about vulnerabilities for censorship, we’re thinking about non profit, not necessarily in the U. S. We’re thinking about non profit in parts of the world where they rely on a dot or domain so that people here in the U. S. No. Oh, this must be a new organization doing good work. I’m willing to donate to them. I’m willing to support them. They’re likely doing work in a geographic region where their government is not in support of what they’re doing right. And having vulnerabilities for censorship means their government could just turn their website off. Right?

[00:48:28.27] spk_2:
So,

[00:49:21.43] spk_0:
uh, there’s a lot happening that is sure maybe not happening in this moment, but very, very likely could happen, right, because these changes have happened. So, um, what has also been challenging is that in a few of these public forums and 10 held a community call and invited the folks from Internet society and PR to come. And John Nevins said that he asked for those changes to be added into the contract, which kind of further creates this web of questioning about who knew this was happening. And how long was this plan, right? If those changes to the contract are what made the contract worth apparently over a $1,000,000,000 how did all of this happen?

[00:49:23.63] spk_2:
Did you have someone from ethos on the call?

[00:49:30.23] spk_0:
We did Eric Brooks, That Theo.

[00:49:50.31] spk_3:
Okay. And he has, uh, yes, I wanna be. I wanna be balanced here because he has a block post that from December 16th where he answers some of the answers, all the questions that a Mozilla Block post had had asked

[00:49:57.17] spk_0:
Answer some of those questions and I would say responded to them. Did not answer them,

[00:50:29.66] spk_3:
You would say responded. Okay, okay. So, like, for instance, on the pricing, um, what assurances gonna dot Or community have that ethos and p i r will keep their promises regarding price increases. We’re committed to limit increases for dot, or domain registrations prices to no more than 10% per year on average, based on domain prices today, that would equate to an additional $1 per year. We plan to embed these pricing commitments in our public benefit LLC or other corporate governing documents that that doesn’t care. Is that not satisfactory?

[00:50:43.24] spk_0:
No, I mean on average. So that could say, over the next 20 years, the average has been 10%. We all understand that Average doesn’t mean every year has to be.

[00:51:05.50] spk_3:
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now Eric says that they are Ah, they’re going to create a P I R. Stewardship Council. Right now, The Stewardship Council, um, concept behind our proposal is to put in place a dot org’s community advisory board body. The council will seek input from the daughter of community and convey the needs of the data or community to P i R. Management provide advice to p ay, our leadership on key matters impacting the daughter of community. And the leading voice in recommending new service is capabilities to be offered through the dot org’s platform to serve the mission driven community.

[00:51:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:51:31.06] spk_3:
okay. What? You know,

[00:52:33.02] spk_0:
they had a, uh webinar. I guess you’d call it yesterday. So did and spoke at more length. It wasn’t a discussion or, you know, they didn’t take live questions or anything like that. But they spoke at more length about the same topics. And what we can understand about this advisory council is that the P. I. R. Board and the folks already working there working within this deal will choose who the council is. The council has no actual authority. Oh, our mechanisms for accountability. And, you know, it’s like a group that they have chosen that they say is able to give be back. So I don’t see how it addresses any of the kind of concerns that rest of the dot or community has for riel accountability.

[00:52:35.39] spk_3:
Okay, so your concern is that it would just be like an advisory board on sort of perfunctory and not not without really thought without authority. The authority would

[00:52:48.12] spk_2:
still be may not

[00:52:52.65] spk_0:
be folks who would have divers or critical views because their hand selected.

[00:52:57.75] spk_2:
Okay, well, hey, did say

[00:53:09.60] spk_3:
again Eric Brooks in his block post. He said that there would be standards for qualifications for membership on the stewardship Council. So

[00:53:10.65] spk_0:
sure,

[00:53:11.40] spk_2:
they would think

[00:53:12.31] spk_0:
that’s a pretty like white, dominant view of saying I’m gonna choose my friends.

[00:53:31.50] spk_3:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because, Well, yeah, The question is whether the dot or community would have input into, I guess I guess we’re talking about. Enter the terms of this disagreement between ethos and I saw. Right,

[00:53:32.83] spk_0:
Right. So we’re moving from a world where the dot or contract is managed by a non profit organization who would also managed by a non profit er organization and into a world where the dot or contract is held by a for profit entity owned by a private equity firm.

[00:53:50.69] spk_2:
Do it right. Just the principles

[00:54:02.33] spk_0:
of those organizational set up completely changes the context in which the dot or contract is maintained. Right? We’re going from a non profit entity reinvesting any additional funds back into the sector to two organizations that are really meant to maximize profit. Right?

[00:54:18.87] spk_3:
I understand. I do understand. And this falls into the category of I I’ve noticed this more in the past 10 years or so. We

[00:54:23.50] spk_2:
have to I feel like I have to fight Maur for what I did to keep status quo.

[00:54:28.65] spk_4:
Um

[00:54:29.74] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:54:32.60] spk_3:
So this is something that all

[00:54:32.93] spk_0:
right, let alone progress.

[00:54:37.08] spk_2:
But yeah, I’m just I’m just Internet

[00:54:54.29] spk_0:
society. Didn’t feel that it was sustainable to manage PR PR didn’t feel like it was manageable. Thio sustain the dot or contract there’s a different solution to that than completely, you know, throwing it out.

[00:54:56.36] spk_3:
I understand. All right. I’m

[00:54:57.40] spk_2:
gonna let us go

[00:54:57.93] spk_3:
a little longer. We are. Typically, we would end right about now, but let’s let’s go another few minutes. Not not not 10 minutes. Because listeners are pretty much counting on on our but, you know, really go another 45 minutes.

[00:55:09.79] spk_2:
Do we know how much

[00:55:12.26] spk_3:
revenue P I R earns? I don’t know. Over the

[00:55:16.01] spk_2:
past years, Annual 19 nineties

[00:55:18.24] spk_0:
and that kind of thing.

[00:55:20.44] spk_2:
Okay, what do you know?

[00:55:21.19] spk_0:
It’s like 90 year.

[00:55:24.12] spk_3:
90 year? Okay. And you’re saying that the contract price is 1.1 billion?

[00:55:30.09] spk_0:
Correct.

[00:55:40.30] spk_3:
Okay. It takes a long time at night at the rate of 90 year to earn back 1.1 billion. And then it’s a venture profit. It’s a venture capital firm. Well, Fletcher, profit venture capital firm, which is a which is a profit profit firm,

[00:55:46.59] spk_2:
that it would be a long

[00:55:47.44] spk_0:
time if you had price caps.

[00:56:00.20] spk_3:
Yes, but there may be other methods, you know, we’re not, you know, we’re not venture capitalists, so I guess you know it comes with a healthy dose of suspicion, not just skepticism,

[00:56:02.04] spk_2:
but I mean challenge. There’s

[00:56:04.47] spk_0:
so little information that’s been shared and so

[00:56:06.68] spk_2:
many questions way.

[00:56:29.19] spk_0:
We have asked, you know how in the community Call it and 10 held. We directly asked Capital if they could confirm how long they plan to own the new version of public interest registry, whatever the new or profit is, how long they plan, tone and invest in that company. And they their answer was a really long time in terms of this work. Okay, well, in terms of private equity, I mean, a year could be a long

[00:56:38.39] spk_2:
time, you know,

[00:56:55.20] spk_3:
Right on his block post. Eric Brooks says Ethos has stated on multiple occasions that we are committed to investing. P I R for the long haul. Are investors include families and not profit acquisitions with long term investment horizons. Um, okay, now, but

[00:56:56.08] spk_2:
your concern is that they could resell it and then and then and then we And then it’s then it’s

[00:57:27.76] spk_3:
between 22 Private. Well, even if their public to four profit entities contracting and the outside community has no input into what contracts are between two companies any more than you know any more than we can comment on intends contracts with vendors for NTC, it becomes a matter of private contract in the case of every sale. Okay. All right. What should, uh, what your listeners do. What should we be doing? We gotta we gotta

[00:57:34.50] spk_2:
move on What you’ll do, you really

[00:57:36.45] spk_0:
love? You can

[00:57:37.14] spk_2:
go

[00:58:25.50] spk_0:
to save dot org’s dot org’s s a V e D o t org dot or GE where we have posted the recording of the community call, for example, if you want to be able to hear what the folks from these companies have said, uh, you can see the letter that we’ve sent to them that outlined some of the issues in the contract and what is really important right now. As for organizations to sign on and endorse our request that the sale stop or if you can’t sign on behalf of your organization, sign as a person as an individual. Right now there’s almost 550 organizations who have signed on, and we have almost 19,000 people who signed on those numbers really matter and help demonstrate that this isn’t you know, just in 10 and e f f who have a problem, right? This is a lot of organizations diverse people who understand that this is not in the best interest of a non profit, you know, four good world of the internet.

[00:59:14.24] spk_3:
Okay, Andi, uh, some of the other organizations involved Association of junior leagues. I’m just sampling from from a list of crisis text line do something dot org’s listeners know Aria finger Do something dot or GE ff Electronic Frontier Foundation Girl Scouts of us A Independent Sector Meals on Wheels America, National Council of Nonprofits and 10 Techsoup Volunteer Match Volunteers of America Wicked Media Y M C A of the U. S. A Y W c A U s A. All right, Amy Sample Ward. Thank you very much.

[00:59:22.12] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Tony. I really appreciate you kind of diving into this when I know it can feel a little acronym heavy, but it really will impact every single non profit

[00:59:33.62] spk_3:
Amy Sample word social media and technology contributor and CEO of in 10. You’ll find her at Amy sample ward dot or ge and at a M. E. R. S

[00:59:40.76] spk_2:
board and Aimee. Simple word. Lots of good wishes for your holidays. And for 2020. That’s a good wishes. Radio,

[00:59:47.02] spk_0:
I hope 2020 means we get to see each other in person.

[00:59:51.12] spk_2:
Well, we will it ntc

[00:59:52.47] spk_3:
But we need to go beyond that. Hopefully.

[00:59:54.43] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:59:56.03] spk_3:
Thank you so much, Amy.

[00:59:59.01] spk_2:
Next week and the week after, there are no shows. I hope you enjoy. Enjoy the hell

[01:00:24.21] spk_3:
out of your holidays. Take time for yourself. Disconnect off grid. You know what all that means? I don’t need to flush it out. I hope you do it. I hope you do it for yourself. Friends, Family. Do it. Take the time you need. You need to take time for yourself because you’re in a giving profession. So no show for two weeks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

Nonprofit Radio for October 11, 2019: Recruiting Your Board Members

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Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Recruiting Your Board Members
Gene Takagi returns with 12 tips, ideas and strategies you can use in board recruitment. We’re talking expectations, motivations, commitment, requirements, and more. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of wheel if I if you irritated me with the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your board members. Jean Takagi returns with 12 tips, ideas and strategies you can use. Inboard recruitment will get those many of them as we can. We’re talking expectations, motivations, commitment, requirements and Maur. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group on 20 steak, too. I’ve never been so insulted in all my life. Responsive by Wagner, C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Witness cps dot com But Cougar Mountain Software, Denali, fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits Tony dahna may slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. And as I’m reading, I realize that the embarrassment of wheel we had that last week. So again, as I’ve said, uh, I’m in desperate need of an intern. So I have someone to blame for these mistakes. So so sorry we didn’t get ah updated sickness for you this week. Uh, no one to blame but myself, which is the problem. That’s why I need interns. Um, let’s let’s bring on Jean. I feel, uh, we’ll rescue everything for us. You know who he is? He’s the managing attorney of Neo non-profit Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit Law block dot com. And in 2016 he was the American Bar Association’s outstanding non-profit lawyer. He’s at G. Tak Jean, help me out here, please. How are you? I’m doing great. How are you? Very well. You sound strong and powerful. And Vural and enthusiastic. I love it. Thank you. I need that. I need that after my real mistake. Um, So you, uh you have Ah, pretty lengthy. Uh, interesting block post that we’re gonna turn over a little bit, but you know, it’s you. You wrote something for individuals who are contemplating boardmember ship, but we’re gonna turn the tables on it on talk about non-profits or contemplating recruiting board members. And what? What advice you’ve got in that in that regard? Does that sound right? Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. Go. You’ve, uh you’ve been working with boards and board members for how many decades now? Um, a couple decades. Yeah. Yeah. So you know what you’re talking about. You You’re on your ANA least one board that I know of. Are you on more than one board currently on a couple boards and a few committees that are non board committees, but staying pretty active. Yeah. No, I know. I’m tryingto I just wanna, uh, establish the bona fide. He’s I mean, you’re not just not just a theory for you. You’re actually practicing it and keeping, ah, keeping real boards feet to the fire. Right. You’re not just not in a vacuum. This is real life for you. So yeah, both both the legal adviser to some boards and then sitting in the fire as the boardmember. I’m not sure I’d want to be on a board that you are a boardmember of you. Would you hold this will? You would hold us to high standards. I I certainly aspire to high standards. I don’t know if I achieve them often or ever, but I aspired to them. So I guess, Yeah, you we wouldn’t clash or anything if you were on the same board. I would I would respect you. I just would be annoyed that you’re always telling us that, you know, we’re not We’re not reaching the right standards of governance or you’re failing your failing the the the requirements of of the duties, the three duties. And and you’re not fulfilling your responsibilities as board members. I would, you know, I would respect you. Um, and I would I would aspire to do better in your words. I would. I would. Yeah. Totally trying not to be that type of boardmember. Well, but you’d be hard. You know, we all know those boardmember. Yeah, but will be hard for you to turn it off. I mean, you know, you’re you’re a fiduciary to the organization. You have. You know, it would be hard for you to turn it off. I could tell it would. All right. Um, So let’s see. So we’re starting with, you know, starting with some of the basics. Um, you want you want to make sure that people understand what? What they’re taking on what responsibilities The three duties, which you’re, um, loyalty, care and obedience. Um, you want to make sure that board members understand what they’re walking into? Yeah. I mean, that’s absolute basics because, you know, everybody could say, you know, I like to be on the board. I’m really passionate about the mission, and that’s a great starting point, but I know that that’s not gonna get very far if you’re not willing to do the rest of the work that’s involved. So just having an understanding of what your legal obligations are, first of all, is probably a good first place to start and for the non-profit, because you flipped it nufer the non-profit. When they start to recruit boardmember, they want to make sure that the board members kind of understand not only what the organization wants out of them, but what the law demands of them. And and they should have offensive. Actually, what could happen if they don’t settle the obligations and that maybe the boardmember from hell that nobody wants the ones who could tell the well in the worst case scenarios, which I sometimes see. This is what can happen it in, like the worst case scenario as you might imagine, might be personal liability of boardmember. Go out of pocket for something that happened with the organization on their watch, because perhaps gross negligence or something more serious than that, or just terrible PR damage where boardmember Zehr individually attacked by media and social media for some failure of the organization. I think from the headline in many news stories over the December and the beginning of the fall, we’ve seen some high profile non-profits where they have been called out for. You know, donors are for activities have engaged in, and so boardmember Zehr often held, you know, to thio how they’re living up to their authority on the responsibilities by the media and social media and maybe buy you a time dummy. Maybe that’s right. Non-profit radio also aspires to a very high standard. The show achieves the high standards. It’s me personally. It’s me personally. That’s ah, that’s rare for way. Just have about two minutes before before our first breaking. You make the point that there should be in place. My ability insurance directors and officers liability insurance. Well, that would be one of the things that I would look for as a perspective boardmember coming on to a board. So I would think that a non-profit that aspires to try to get high quality people on their board who are really interested in doing the work protection, huh? Just in case personal liability doesn’t become an issue. Directors and officers, insurance is kind of what protects against that. So that would be a mosque on my list. Do your do your boards that you sit on, let you get involved with recruitment. Yeah, I’m Max. Absolutely. Part of the one of the committee that that’s in charge of recruitment for one of the board. Excellent. Excellent. Okay. So that I shouldn’t say like, let you go. I mean it. That way, they take advantage of your expertise. That’s what I should say. Buy-in recruiting new boardmember. Yeah, because it is essential. You know, the people want to have to know what they’re getting into. And, of course, like you said, it has to go a lot lot further than just passion. Um, we have about a minute or so. What? You you knew, name something. What would you feel like bringing up for a minute? And then we could talk about it more after the break through? Sure, I guess, is a nonprofit organization I would want to know. Why does this individual? So I’m thinking about inviting onto the board. Want Do they want to be a board member of our organization? And I know everybody I talk to you is gonna say what we have a passion for the organization of the organization’s mission. But I would want to know what else. Why else do you want to serve? Sometimes those reasons could be all about, you know, uh, very altruistic. And you know what? Emotionally helping the people about our organization helps what that means to them and the social impact they want to create. But sometimes there are self interested reasons as well. And sometimes that’s okay to do it for personal reasons. And maybe we’ll get into that. Tony, would you have any personal reasons for wanting to serve on the board? Could you see some benefit that comes to you personally out of it? Oh, sure. Um, hold that thought. I’m not trying to get out of answering. Let me take this break, and, uh, and I will answer in about 30 seconds. Um, this break is for regular CPS. Are you thinking about a change possibility? Possibly in your c p. A relationship. Maybe your board is talking about boardmember boardings rumbling that they’ve had the same accounting firm for a long time. Or maybe they’re not quite up thio up to par for some reason, um, whatever the reasons, maybe you’re feeling, ah, growing need to get some accounting help. You know, a partner. You know, partner Wagner. You know, ye duitz doom. Weinger CPS has been a guest multiple times. Talk to him, see if they can help you get started at wagner cps dot com. Now, let’s go back to recruiting your board members. Um, okay, Gene. So, yes, Uh, I didn’t I didn’t call you out for asking me a question, which is generally prohibited, but that’s okay. Uh, so, yeah, I mean, I’ve ah, personal networking. I mean, if we’re getting to the base level, maybe there’s some people on the board who, you know, I’d like to I’d like to get to know, or maybe I know them and were friendly, and I feel like we would work very well together, Although that could be that could be a bit of a red flag for the non-profit. If if I’m gonna be like a voting bloc with my friend or two that, you know, that could be difficult, depending on what those one or two people are like. Um, but, yeah, of course. Networking business advantage. Um, maybe I’m on another board. And there’s some synergy put potentially between the organization’s, um so there’s a couple of non mission related reasons. What do you hear? You hear any bad stuff? Well, I’ll just add on 15 were good things, and then I’ll talk about the best. Like sometimes people want to develop skills and maybe create job opportunities for themselves. They may start off a boardmember hoping that that might turn into something out with that organization or maybe a allied organization. Um, prestige is probably another, and there are some status boards of, like foundations and symphonies and operas or whatever. Organizations have particular status in a community of whatever communities that have might happen to be sometimes sitting on the board ads toe kind of the social status that somebody might have and power. Sometimes I know for identity based group community organizations, sometimes serving on the board on it. Being with such high like that that that person is able to exercise power in other areas as well. So those might be reasons summer okay for serving on the board of long, but that’s not there. Those were not their primary reasons, or they do not let that get in the way of acting in the best interest of the organization above all other things. But sometimes there are some bad things. And then so serving on the board to get into a contract with your company, that wouldn’t be such a cool thing, although we hear of that happening with several organizations that are in the news. Um, have you where Jean have? Have you ever heard anyone disclosed that what in the in the recruitment process that they want it? Not that I’d like to see. I’d like I’d like to see this organization doing some work with my with my company. I haven’t heard you haven’t heard of the organization I join, but there’s definitely been some implications that for some of the reasons that you discussed well voting blocs created within the board from business partners or business, then you know they’re using that block to take advantage and have the whole board or enough of the board to agree to certain contracts, um, that allow their companies to do business. So I didn’t want to point out to meeting, but I think it’s safe to point out one name of an organization because they’ve been in the news an awful lot under governance. And that’s the N R A, which is actually a bunch of different organizations. Ah, but the n r A. That sort of the main organization, uh, has been kind of under heat a little bit for the contract that their board members and they have a very large board. I think over 70 people the contract that their board members have engaged in with the organizations and whether that was on abuse of their duties or not. I will comment on whether I think it is or not. But there’s that perception of a non-profit boardmember being on a board that the proof contract would that boardmember company and when that occurs over and over again with multiple board members and it starts to look like the voting blocs are sort of a wash, you wash my hands. I’ll wash yours kind of kind of deal. And so you have to think about the perception, and not only just the limitations that Lami have on that. There’s certainly some legal issues that could arrive, but the public perception of that and being on the front page of The New York Times or The Washington Post or whatever. And you know, with that allegations, what will that do to the rest of your fund-raising and how the rest of the community thinks of your organization? So there are some really interesting things that could be bad as well in terms of bad personal reasons for serving on the board. Um, I’m going backwards now to something that you mentioned about potential social media embarrassment for you being on the board. Critics of the organization, I guess, is there some way that an organization can, um, insulate or or somehow protect or what can what? Can an organization offer to, uh, mollify someone’s concerns over possible personal embarrassment on the social networks? Yeah, you know, it’s a really tricky thing. There are some organizations that try, so you’ll see that some organizations are very open about putting on their organizational website. You know who is on the board of directors? Um, but some organizations feel that they want to keep that information a little bit more private, and they don’t put their board members on their website. The limitation to that is that your form 9 90 which is a public document. And that’s your annual information return that you submit to the I. R. S. Um, that’s easily available on a site like GuideStar Archer. And, um, that’s going to list all of your board members on it. So as much as you want insulate some board members, that’s not really the way the law thinks about what the law thinks about. You know, non-profit organizations, while while they’re not public organizations, they’re not governmental organizations. They are the type of private organization without ownership where the board are really acting in Stuart’s on behalf of the community, Um, and they want to make sure that those organizations are fairly transparent and what they’re doing, including who is leading the organization. So that’s why that information is required on the form 9 90 board members and officers so that everybody could see them. And what type of compensation they make for the organization if they’re paid. So is there not really much protection that an organization could offer someone against attack again on the social networks? I’m thinking of that because it’s it’s so public, and it could be potentially so embarrassing. There’s really If someone wants to call out a boardmember, there’s not really nothing. It’s not really something that the organization could do. Tow support, the murder? Well, yeah. I mean, other than Dino insurance, you know, the the organization could It’s the beer enough. Have their lawyer perhaps look a defamation claim. That’s a stretch. That’s that’s really serious. Okay, yeah. And the social networks are Ah, well, yeah. I mean, they’re they’re pretty much open. They are what they are. You have to go pretty far. You have to go pretty far to be, uh, someone have a reasonable claim against you for defamation, right? And in that environment, right. And you’re weighing in against the First Amendment rights of people to be able to express their opinions like a yelp review that’s really bad and says, Well, you know, this organization has done horrible things, and these are the board members who are responsible. Well, that’s probably protected straight. All right, opinion. It’s something. But it’s something for organizations that are potentially controversial. If they’re doing grassroots political organizing or really doesn’t even have, sometimes have to be. It doesn’t have to be political to be controversial s. So if your organization has a mission that’s high profile of any of any sort, um, you need to make sure you’re boardmember understand that there’s a potential for them to be, uh, called out good or bad. We’re thinking about what we were thinking more of the bad. That’s true, Tony, I. And I think now that I think about your question about is there anything that you can do to protect your boardmember? There is one protection for small organizations that they might offer is to not publicized or use a board members home address or even their business address as the organization’s address. And I know a lot of small grassroots organizations do that. They kind of just use a board members. Or maybe the founders home addresses their organizational address. Yes, well, once you’ve made that public information now, people could actually go to that home. They know where you live. So, um, not subjecting a boardmember tiu. That might be important. And that that address might be located on a public document that details either the organization’s address for the ancient for service of process address. So that’s the agent preservative processes. Basically who? Somebody would deliver a lawsuit, too. And you are required to make that publicas well. And oftentimes people put a boardmember they’re on, they put their home address so they make sure that they get the mail. That’s not very good for privacy concerns. So those are two things to think about. You could get a P o box for 100 bucks a year or something. And sometimes a P O box is not permissible. They require a street address, But then you can look too. There are a lot of virtual offices that will let you suri address, right? Right. Yes, exactly. That’s right. The male shops that used to be mailbox etcetera. Um, but that type of that type of store, they’ll give you a street address, but it’s a storefront. Yeah, OK, yeah. That’s right. For service of process P O. Box. Not allowed. Probably, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, you want to be looking for someone who is, Uh Ah. Good. Ah, good team. Team player works well with others. They’re gonna be serving on committees. And of course, we talked about expectations. You gonna tell them whether they’re gonna be on one or two committees? Maybe you could even tell them which committee or committees they’re going to serve on or ask them what their preferences are. But it’s committee work. It’s full board work. It’s working team wise with the C suite, sometimes with the staff, maybe with volunteers, somebody who’s gonna be collegial and team worthy, right? Yeah, I think you know, I wouldn’t understand an organization that wouldn’t want that characteristic of a boardmember. And it’s hard to tell, right? Some people are good about, you know, putting on a good public safe. So it’s the only time you’ve ever met this candidate is, uh, you know, a breakfast interview, and then you’re deciding whether to that that person should be on the board or not. That’s a tricky decision to make because they can say they’re collegial player and be really nice at the breakfast meeting. But do you know how, though act in aboard environment, then sometimes that’s going to be very different from that one on one meeting. So getting to know the person might include a little bit more diligent but informing them of, like Witek of requirements and responsibilities they’re gonna have for your organization if that’s committee work or that other work or expectation that they volunteered at events that times are work with some other volunteers or work with some staff on some committee, whatever kind of the organization does with its own board members, that’s the expectation. And that’s why they want t get Yu on the board. You know, they’ve got to make sure they’re expressing that to the boardmember in advance before they bring them on, because the boardmember. Is walking into something that they didn’t know about. That’s gonna be a potential mismatch and can create some harsh feelings. It’s not managed, right? Yeah, sure. I didn’t know. Why didn’t you? Didn’t you tell me up front that this was gonna be the thieves? Were the expectations on And of course, as long as we’re talking about expectations again, we want to be very clear about fund-raising expectations. How much are you required to personally give. How much do you do we look for you to get from from other sources? Do we look to you to host events in your home or in your business? Uh, do we look to you to bring the business community to us, etcetera? All those types of fund-raising requirements should be should be laid out. Yeah, it’s a it’s a It’s a great question to ask, because this is a little bit of a debatable topic, and I see both sides on it. Is that fund-raising requirement? Tony Some a little curious as to how you feel about it, too. I kind of feel like it’s great to ask that every board member give a meaningful amount for them. But I’m a little bit more leery of the board that says, You know, we have a $1000 a $25,000.100,000 dollar minimum that you contribute a year for the privilege of being a boardmember big sickening that’s now framing it as a donor relationship rather than a relationship in which the expectations are is that the boardmember is been a exercise proper oversight and helped direct the organization into the future um So while I think donations should be a requirement of some sort, I don’t think strict numbers are really a good idea, Particularly if diversity and inclusiveness is something that we want in our organizational board. Yeah, Yeah. I used to feel that a strict number was appropriate, but I’ve changed my mind over the years that it should be what it should be a meaningful gift for the individual. Now, there are marquee names with that we’ll never get away from. You know, we have $100,000 requirement here, but we’re talking to small and mid sized non-profits, not the New York City Ballet and Stanford University. Right. So But you know that that, uh, well, they’re the other, the other 5% we’re talking to the other 95 but they’re the five that they’re not in the 95. So, uh, so they’re they’re moving them aside as we do routinely. We don’t even mention the 1999% of time without even thinking of them. So for our listeners, yeah, uh, it should be a meaningful. I mean, it should be a stretch gift, you know, But then you have to have conversation with each individual boardmember. You know what that means for them? I think I think before they joined the board, I I agree, Tony. I think that’s a good thing. Thio raise ahead of time. So you don’t put people in awkward positions where their like again going. I had no idea. And this is deeply personal for me. And I’m going through hard times now. Yeah, yeah. Do you like to see these expectations in writing? I kind of liked have, um, some of this in writing as part of the board orientation package so that both parties know kind of what, What he expected. Questions are going to be. So, uh, both, you know, in the board orientation package that I’m thinking of is going to be shared, even with part of it will be shared with a prospect before their actual provided onto the board. Okay, some of the questions that that you’re gonna ask of any prospect so they get to know you better as an organization, as the board of the culture that values better pervading the the organization. And they get to know you better than individual and to see if there is that right fit. So being as transparent as possible up front, I think, is the best way to help make sure you’ve got a good relationship going. You mentioned being independent enough to express your own point of view and not to be intimidated by other committee members of the board members. How would a non-profit assess that? Yeah, it’s a really good question. I think you could see the Valley, Tony and I know you’ve got a legal education background as well. So the independent judgment is really important. So we don’t have kind of a bunch of sheets. Just say, Oh yeah, way trust, you know, our chair or whoever. We will just go along with the boat without actually looking at any of the documents or any of the facts and circumstances related to that boat, which might be very important for which you might have particular skills that you could actually have given the full board. The benefit of if you had actually taken a look at that ensures what you what you had with it rather than sort of rubber stamping what somebody else said so that independent judgment is really important in terms of meeting your legal responsibilities. But it’s also just if you’re a team player, Um, I don’t think you’re just the team player. If all you do is follow, I think with a strong team, you are all supportive of one another. And when you have a certain skill that or experience or perspective, you share that and you utilize that so you can help the team in that area where other people, other people on the board may not have those things. And I think we’re also unique. That we can offer something different from the way everybody else is looking at Is the boardmember on almost any issues. So I think really contributing and exercising that independent judgment is, uh, super important. But testing it wth the question you asked Really hard. I know. So we asked the question. Or you can ask more generative question about how would you behave if you know, the board chair said, We want this on your head. Five out of six other board members say it, but you really disagreed with that. What would you do in that situation? That might be one of the types of questions that you ask a candidate for the board and see what they say. Yeah, Maybe that’s maybe that is the only way is just ask you. What would you do in that situation? All right, Jean, we have to take a break when we come back. Give us any more thoughts you might have on assessing that, uh, that independent judgment and then, you know, then you come back with something that you’d like to chat about. Meanwhile, we’re taking a break for cooking mountain software designed from the bottom up for non-profits. It’s simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your own accounting software? QuickBooks? No. Quick in no turbo cash workday zoho Patriot. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can’t. Um so go with something that is made for non-profits from the bottom up. Cougar Mountain Free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at Tony dahna May slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two. I’ve never been so insulted in all my life. This woman years ago accused me of being a thief, a planned giving thief. She suggested that I would steal from an estate steal from my employer at the time. This is what I was a director of planned e-giving. Um, and all while trying to get me to do her a favor, which was technically well, not just technically, which was impossible for me to do is illegal for me to do not just on a technicality. It was illegal for me to have done, but she didn’t understand how this whole thing works. So, um, see what shocked me? It’s Ah, it’s a video where I’m hosted by Peter Heller of Heller Consulting Group. He’s got a video siris. He interviewed me. I told this shocking story, and you can find it on. Uh, yeah, I mean, you go to Peter Heller’s website, but why would you wanna go there when you go to tony martignetti dot com? That’s the place to go. Watch the video at tony martignetti dot com. All right, let us continue with Jean Takagi and recruiting your board members. Gene, anything more you want to say about possibly assessing independent judgment than anything come to mind there, but I think it has to do the questioning of the candidate. But maybe more importantly, you have to share with the candidate that you’ve got a culture that allows for independent judgment to be welcomed, right? You don’t want to make it look like you have this culture where everybody is going to rubber stamp a board members or the CBO’s. Maybe which is more common. Whatever the CEO decides upon, they know the day to day stuff, so they must be right. Do you have a culture that that allows the board to question, then probe and act more than just the sounding board? But really, Thio provide a lot of additional input and then decide whether the board should actually stacked in and make decisions where there’s enough of the board that that challenges what a particular board share or a CEO, my steak is in the best interest of the organization. So it is a particularly important point to create a culture that allows her for individual board members to intervene when it’s reasonable and appropriate. But I think that’s the last thing, okay, and this is related to something that you and I have talked about before, which is very bad sign. If all the votes are unanimous and there isn’t this culture that you just described, you know everybody just rubber stamps. Ah, there’s And we talked about it. It might be a strong board chair or CEO or somebody extra wealthy who everybody is intimidated by, or whatever. You know that those are all those are all very bad and counter to the culture that you’re talking about fostering. Um, what did you want? You got one. You do throw something out there? Sure. So I think another thing that an organization wants to do with with an individual is to make that individual comfortable, that they know who’s actually on the board and who the CEO is. Some some organizations recruit board members, and only one boardmember. Knows this new candidate. Nobody else has ever met him, you know, and they judge that candidate based on how they look on papers. But he’s got a good resume. Yes. Um, and this boardmember vouches for him, and we really need a boardmember. So let’s Alexis, um, yeah, uh, so you know that’s not a typical. It’s pretty common. So for non-profits have a system where they went. Why don’t we have that breakfast meeting or lunch meeting and bring out a few board members on bring out the CEO for one of these things. If you’re you know, it is a board member and the board really that important to an organization. And the law recognizes a tte the top of of what is still ah, hi article system in terms of governance, it’s the law requires, you know, that the board is at the top, then a boardmember position is super super important. And is the organization treating the addition of a boardmember as it is that important? And that’s a good sign of the board for an individual candidate and for aboard that actually sets it up so that they’re going to place proper priority to bringing on a new boardmember by letting the meet several board members and CEO and maybe attended board meeting without any, um, sort of strings attached. A visitor. You come out and see a get to know us, we’ll get to know, you know, that’s a promising Anything I haven’t heard that suggested for That’s a good one. Let someone come to a board meeting as a visitor as an observer, that was you mean? Yeah, exactly. Um, and I think they would get a sense of what the culture is much better from actually getting to be in the meeting. Even if they’re a silent observer. I’m sure there’s going to be some pleasantries exchanged, but they’ll know much better. And you get a sense out of them if you actually allow them to participate as part of the board. Um, at least with introductions and maybe what they want out of what their views are of the organization that that might be a nice baker. Also your point about doing it based on a breakfast meeting in a resume review that, um, yes, this is subsumed in what you were saying, really? But I won’t make it explicit that that that just doesn’t give, um doesn’t give credence to the, uh doesn’t respect the, uh, the position that you’re bored should be held in. It makes it, you know, just purely transactional. We need a body, she’s available, and she has a good resume that, you know, that doesn’t doesn’t, uh, give someone ah, feeling of prominence in the organization like Ajay. If it hadn’t been my warm body that that was brought in, there would have been some other warm body that they found the next day, but but a Siri’s where there’s multiple interviews to three interviews over several weeks on and there’s deliberation and you make sure the person shows up on time for the three interviews and takes them seriously, you know, those you can learn a lot just by observing somebody over over several weeks or maybe even over a couple of months. Yeah, I think that’s so true. And I met the okay with even introducing some perspective board members to certain staff beyond the CEO. Um, so and then soliciting staff input is, well, a thio what they think about this perspective. Candidates. Um, I, uh I am forgetting a good picture. Look all around from all people. Um, and Aziz said that the importance, I think articulated much better than I did. The importance of the position should be respected by the process. That’s what I meant to say. Yeah, I think you just said it better than I did. Okay. Really Got you said. You certainly said it more succinctly. That’s definitely true. Um, okay. You have one. You gotta You gotta basically have your compliance house in order your nine nineties articles of incorporation by-laws policies. Your financial statements, whether audited or not, All these things I mean, this is sort of foundational, but, you know, if there’s a problem in any of these, you’re you are got you at the organization are gonna look poor in the eyes of your perspective. Board members. That’s what I think. And I think as a perspective boardmember and I will give you this morning, actually for a board. So coincidentally, um, I’m gonna look at all these. Um and I will look at them with a bit of a critical eye to see if I see sloppiness. Where if I see vagueness in in what the missionary, I see a different mission statement in the articles from the by-laws the website. Like I had really tell what they’re doing where they’re 9 90 Just seemed to be like, very, you know, scattered. We prepared. Of course. I’m gonna see, you know, the financial. I’m gonna see how stronger week they appear, at least on paper. Moneywise. Um, so there’s a lot of things the documents are gonna show me. So if a non-profit is very careful about doing these things and finding on time, of course it I’ll see if they’re finally late and you know they’re suspended or delinquent or or whatever. So the non-profits should like when whenever you invite a houseguest over that you want to impress in, clean your house before you bring that person. And I think non-profits got to think this thing. Wait, they’re gonna bring the boardmember and again back-up prominent important positions. We’re going to clean our house so we can attract the best candidates. And hope will retain the best candidates as well. Well, Gene, that organization would be lucky to get you in-kind on. How many boards can you be on? My gosh, you’re on your own. You already you have time for? Yeah, I usually have a tube board maximum. But the organization that pocket is important enough. And I actually have a term off of another board. Uh, within the year that that gives me the ability to sort of overlap with three boards for maybe a few months. If I If I should be so lucky as to be elected by that order, um, But then then we’ll be back to two boards after that. Okay? I see you get you have a whole schedule of new spreadsheet to manage. You’re bored. You’re bored. Obligation? Yeah, actually. D’oh, I’m very careful about trying not overcome it. Let’s talk about something that you and I talked about. Oh, I don’t know. Three months or so ago, maybe 23 months. We had a real well, uh, meaningful conversation about diversity equity and inclusion. So without going over the that full hour that we spent, um, if this is important to the organization, then it’s going to want to recruit board members for whom that value is important. Yeah, I think so. Well, and if they’re looking to recruit, um, certain, uh, members of the community that might give the board more diverse representation. They’re gonna want to really think about making that person feel not like a token which we discussed about and have an inclusive environment that really welcomes their ideas and acknowledges and ensures that they’re able to exercise the power that they have in their position, that they have a voice in the organization and in the governance of the organization. They’re not just sitting by the sidelines, helping the board take a better looking picture. So it really is an issue. But it comes down to where? For an individual. If you believe strongly in that In in that diversity concept, um, and you are invited onto a board that’s not diverse, and you’re a member of the majority group. So let’s say the group is predominantly white man and your white male we get invited onto that board. Well, if you really falik the value of diversity equity inclusion, you might say, No, I’m not gonna take that position on that board because I would grab you see that board bring on somebody who does give you a more diverse perspectives representation on Guy might, you know, being part of the majority group, participate in another way to help you get that. But I don’t want to be part of a board and just make make that that issue on even harder one to deal with. So it’s an interesting situation for organizations that want to think about it. Um, if they want to bring in the best people, they’re gonna have to think about how they’re gonna address their composition issues as well. That that happens to be an issue. Yeah, no, it’s very altruistic. The way you describe you know, the selflessness of doing what’s right for the organization. Bye bye. Not not accepting a board position and flip that on its side. Uh, non-profits need to be, uh, thoughtful about who they are inviting If this is an important value for them, Jean, we gotta take our very last break turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories all the while building support for your mission. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to dot CEO and Jean and I have but loads more time for recruiting your board members. Um, all right, G, you have something, uh, you want to bring up? Sure. I think maybe the next important point I wanted to bring up because it happened to the indication is non-profit is great. It’s filled with wonderful people and they they’re really working towards something that I believe in passionately in their culture is the great says everything seems to be fine, but at the moment they are confronting some really difficult issues that’s going to require extra effort extra tax from the board, and it might be a financial challenging, financially challenging time for them might be a leadership transition, that they’re losing a founder or expect long term executive director and they’re gonna move into a new one. They might be engaged in litigation for which they did nothing wrong. But all of this doesn’t They’re going to be sort of boiled in in lawsuits and potential PR damage that might go along with that on all of the things can create more work for aboard and definitely require more effort in intelligence impact from the board. I think non-profits have to let prospective board members know, even if those things have not hit the media are are really public yet that if they’re coming on toe into an organization that’s got some imminently difficult challenges that will be brought before the board, they want to know first. Is that the best time to recruit boardmember? Because it might not be. But if they are recruiting port members, I think they got to be up front again with them and not surprised them after their dahna boardmember got you. Now you gotta be on the committee that deals with art. Being involved in this lawsuit duty to disclose basically thing I think that that organizations have to be up front about that, obviously very tactful there. I know there are confidentiality issues that are gonna be weighing in on the other side of that transparency, so somethingto really managed very carefully and thoughtfully. You’re basically saying there’s a duty to disclose these these kinds of challenges, and that could be an opportunity the organization could could turn that into something, you know? Yeah, we have this particular financial challenge, but that’s why we’re looking for you. Andi is not to be a donor, but, you know, maybe it’s Ah, it’s a it’s a finance problem or an investment problem on endowment management problem or something. And so you’re can hyre are sorry. Recruit someone who has a particular expertise and that person could, you know, potentially be a leader in I don’t want to turning the organization around but guiding the organization out of the difficulty that they’re facing so it could present a challenge and an opportunity for non-profit and for a potential boardmember to come together and help each other. I think that’s very, very true. Yeah. And financial management expertise is, um, really sought after quality for a board members. And sometimes some boards have a hard time finding those people, so it’s a difficult issue. Arises. And, um, uh, they put extra effort into finding somebody like that that that can be an opportunity for referred bringing ana boardmember gonna be invaluable for many, many years. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what about, um, the, uh just, you know, sort of leadership personality, like, you know, Are you Are you? Ah. Are you messing? Well, you are. You messing well as leaders with the the potential boardmember do you put forth a, um, an image which hopefully is not merely a not a facade, but, you know, Are you confident you you convey confidence in the direction of the organization, the your leadership, your leadership style? Uh, you know, these, I think, are sort of intangibles that Ah, well, much of what we’re talking about is intangible, but that ah, potential boardmember is using toe assess whether they’re gonna fit. Yeah, absolutely. I’m sure they’re all the studies that we know of. Um, where first impressions are powerful tribes of what that relationship turns into um so or whether there is a continued relationship at all. Um, and I think that’s very true in bringing Ana boardmember as well. So boardmember gets introduced to a board chair or to an executive director or somebody else in a senior leadership position. And first impressions are going to develop pretty quickly. So certainly within the 1st 30 seconds Teoh a minute. Um, they’re going to be some presumptions that each side has about the other. And I think understanding the limits of what first impressions means are important for board members when you’re dealing with people who might be introverted or shy, and or maybe from a cultural, different cultural background not used to sort of exhibiting some of the the the confidence you know that you might find from another culture stressing that important in the first meeting maybe is more of a dimmer, demure attitude that is more valued by other cultures upon the first meeting, or that find that more appropriate. But I think we have to sort of take into account that there are different reasons that people are are showing for the first impression. But on the other side, when you’re the non-profit. You do want to make sure that you are giving the best impression we can, not just in the documents that we talked about earlier, but in your leadership. So I’m always a huge fan of education and trading, and I think boys don’t do that enough for their CEOs in their board chairs. Um, so yes, way kind of expect them to have the skill on. And maybe once in a while we’ll send them to a training where they’re just sort of getting training about the secretary, you know, in a sector wide conference or something. But are we really giving them training on on certain things that might be really, really relevant, but very, very specific? So if they’re the public face of the organization, should we be giving them some public relations training or some media training? Those things, too, just sort of think about it again. I’m a big fan of training, and the board can really help by saying we want allocate some resources to this on. Make sure that we’re providing for that, that that strong first impression and understanding about first impressions on their limitations when we’re judging other people on it. Yeah, I’ve seen instances to where, um, the organization invests in coaching for the CEO. I’ve seen that I’m not a couple times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they see promise potential. But I guess the CEO, maybe, you know, like like all of us, I mean has some shortcomings. You know, maybe it’s Ah, I don’t know what leadership leader, management of the other C suite individuals. Or maybe it’s, you know, there’s not enough team building or something, you know, whatever it is, they see a need a gap, and, uh, they invest in a coach for the for that CEO. I think that’s such a great, um, uh, allocation of research from from from many organizations that have money to invest in their leadership leadership training. I think coaching from the right people could be invaluable even for a very, very senior executive. None of us have all of the tools and all of the best qualities. Andi executive director seems to need so many different skillsets so many experiences in so many abilities. I think coaching never heard. Um, we’ve talked about we talked about the consistency across documents, and so now we’re talking about meeting, meeting the leadership of the organization and maybe even meeting some staff, introducing staff to potential board members. You want to make sure that not only your documents but you’re your people boardmember Zand staff and see sweet alike are consistent in terms of messaging, that they all have the common vision that’s laid out in the vision statement and that the articles of incorporation of the by-laws without by-laws the articles of incorporation speak to know the people all need to be consistent, as as thes potential board members are interviewing them just as much as you’re interviewing the potential board members. Yeah, I think that’s very true. And I think when the, um kind of the things that I think is overlooked right now is the importance of memorializing or documenting the organization’s value. Um, in a document like the by-laws Wait, don’t do it. We have incited a standard practice. I’m trying to think about that being an actual, um, important section of the box by-laws. Really? Okay, Yeah, I think organizations Now, um, you’re driven by your your mission, of course, but it’s not just your mission. You’re also driven by your value because if your mission was, I don’t know. We talked about this example before, but your mission was just thio. If feed homeless people, you could just wait down suit on the sidewalk, right? You could play down slop there, and many homeless people have to eat it that nobody does that right, because that’s not within our values of having people had to be treated with dignity and respect. Um, organizations just won’t do that. But we don’t explicitly say why we don’t just affect the mission, you know, to the maximum degree by just doing things without, you know, care and just laying it out. So I think it’s really important that we say what our values are and how the values that I think about are those that will guide our decisions so that it actually stops us from saying we’re gonna spend a maximum amount to get the most people served. No, we’re gonna not spend the maximum to maximize the number of people served. We want to maximize the service that we’re giving as well in balance, that and why are we doing that because of these values? And I think that has to be documented. So with that we know we actually share them with all the people, including the perspective boardmember. We don’t just assume it. That may not be true. Okay, Jeanne, we gotta leave it there. Well said he’s managing attorney of Neo non-profit Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. You’ll find the block post that we were speaking from at non-profit law block dot com, which you should be subscribed to its 12 considerations before you join that non-profit board. But I’m not sure I don’t want I don’t want a decrease traffic on hits to your site, But I think we I think we did a pretty good job of going through. Ah, all these 12. Maybe we didn’t. You know, we didn’t explicitly one through 12 but I think we’ve covered the vast majority. These, if not if not everything. Jean, thank you very much. Thanks for sharing your expertise. Thanks so much, Tony. Really appreciate it. My pleasure. Next week. Scale up and sustain with Kathleen Kelly. Janice. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers Witnessed gps dot com but koegler Mountain Software, Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits. Tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein, who is me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern Time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned Potential Live Life Your way on talk radio dot N Y C aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. 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Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Maria Semple, Gene Takagi & Amy Sample Ward: 450th Show!
We’re celebrating Nonprofit Radio’s 9th anniversary and 450th show! We’ve got Claire Meyerhoff co-hosting, live music from Scott Stein, giveaways from Cura Coffee, our contributors Maria Semple, Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward, July 26 history lessons and lots more fun. To win prizes, tweet about our 450th using #NonprofitRadio. We’ll pick the clever ones and shout you and your nonprofit as winners, making you a part of history. Celebrate with us!

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Transcript for 450_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190726.mp3 Processed on: 2019-07-27T00:45:39.647Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…07…450_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190726.mp3.427129504.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/07/450_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190726.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. You heard that live music. It’s our 450 of show foreigners. That’s a lot. That’s a lot of radio. I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into op Telmo psychosis if I saw that you missed today’s show. It’s our 4/50. Claire Meyerhoff from the PG agency is our guest co host. We’ve got this live music from Scott Stein. All our contributors Jean Takagi, Amy Stamp Award and Maria Simple will be calling in along with the new sponsors to introduce and announce we’re gonna giveaway bags of cure a coffee. Scott is going to be playing more music for us. Claire’s gonna lead us in a fun history lesson. We’re live tweeting with the hashtag non-profit radio, So join us on Twitter. We’re on Facebook. Live at the Tony No at on my page. Tony martignetti zoho of your If you are a friend there, we’re on Facebook. But if not Twitter with the hashtag non-profit radio. This is all on our 4/50 show, ninth anniversary Thank you so much for being with us. Were sponsored by Response, sir by Wagner c. P A is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By Cougar Mountain Software Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial also sponsored by turn to Communications, p. R and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two t w o dot co So that website is turn hyphen. T w o dot CO and for the 450th show were sponsored by Cure Coffee connecting coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. Cure a cough a dot com. Don’t you talk pretty? That’s clear. Meyerhoff. Welcome. Welcome. Oh, she’s a trained. She’s radio could tell that I’m on treyz Telemann train and she’s a pro. Welcome back to the show in my heart for 50. Thank you for coming up. Thank you. Came from Washington D c. I drove actually was in New England. Drove down yesterday. Will be driving back to D. C. Welcome. Bible days are creative producer. It’s good to have you. Yes, way We started this show. Will you started the show. But I helped you way back when you asked me some for some advice, and you were like, What would you charge me? And I’m like, you know, really wouldn’t charge you anything. But you know what I’d like? I’d like my name at the end of the credits of every show. It’s been their claim. Our creative producer, cloudgood I know it’s serving last. That’s what you want. It’s there. Nine years. It’s been, like one. A legacy. Scotty Stein’s got Stein. Welcome back. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Always good to see it. Always good to be beyond the show. Pleasure. I love having you for the anniversary shows. You bring your keyboard. Yep. We’re gonna hear cheap red wine. We are gonna hear a brand new composition World release. Ah, yeah. I wrote it this morning. Okay. E wrote it this morning. First to hear it are awesome. Yes. What? What’s going on in the Scott Stein music World Music gigs coming up? Yeah, actually, doing a gig out in Brooklyn on Monday at a place called Bark or Tits And the debt. Ms. Park section of Brooklyn, close to where I live. Uh, me and three other songwriters Jerry Cherry, Kyle Lacey and Sarah Wise doing kind of a song writers in the round thing. It’s a great little room for that. So I’m doing that on that. I’m about to head to Chicago on Wednesday. I’m goingto Lollapalooza. I’m playing really play? No, I am playing a CZ part of a kid’s rock fan, Joanie Leeds in The Night Lights who I’ve worked with for almost 10 years. Uh, we’re playing the kids stage at Lollapalooza on Thursday. Friday, Joanie Leeds and that’s it. Love that. Congratulations, follow-up, Pollux. Yeah, I’m excited. How do they define kids at Lollapalooza? But, uh, I think 10 and under. Okay. I mean, I think the general demographic for Joni’s me could be anything from like toddlers up. Three. Think that 1st 2nd grade, something like that. It’s pretty broad range of children’s ages, but a lot of fun. It’s super super fun. Congratulations. Thank you. It’s awesome. Yeah, What’s going on in the clear Meyerhoff PG agency World plan giving creative. I continue to help lots of wonderful non-profit organizations with their legacy programs, helping them build out their legacy societies and helping them reach and engage their best prospect. So they make requests and other plan gif ts to their favorite non-profit charities. About s So where you living now? You live in North Carolina and I live in Washington, D C live in Alexandria, Virginia, in Alexandria. Okay. Okay. What’s Ah, that’s a cool town. It’s great a lot going on right now. That’s Ah, that’s the new isn’t Google. It’s coming. The Amazon Amazon. Remember? Amazon had the big contest and it shows part of Arlington, Virginia to be the darling of Alexander. Pretty darn close. Pretty close. Does this mean your property value is going about my condo in October? And it’s already increased quite a bit. So it was. It’s been good for real estate, Awesome in the DC area, people buzzing about this And I guess that’s the thing like Courtney, I don’t know. You know, you’re not in the, you know, in the local Well, there’s a lot to talk about. What you live in Washington, D. C, for instance. There’s this guy on Pennsylvania Avenue and there’s this Congress and okay, so people talk about it and then they talk about non-profit radio there, like every day I walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, our Constitution evident. People are just talking about Tony martignetti non-profit radio and I go What’s not to talk? That’s great. It’s 9th 9th 10th anniversary. You know, I can’t believe Help me. You did help me in the beginning. It’s got nine years on. I have, I have when I’m gonna get to actually way could share these Now I got I got the history is where it was a little thematic Well, history’s thematic thing Yes, you’re clear Your very first show non-profit radio. Yeah, I have it. Here’s the show sheet from It was July 23rd 2010. Wow, nine years ago. That was nine years ago. We started in July. So you were on, like the third or fourth show I was. What was I talking about? I think donorsearch Tory’s for playing storytelling was actually story storytelling in jargon. Remember mary-jo argast maybe jargon jail Throw people in jargon jail. That was your charge. It was your concept. I hate jargon. Credit. I hate the word used all the time. I don’t want any. I don’t ever want to hear the word youth in everything because as I learned in broadcast journalism from Bill Torrey at American University. He said no one ever says, like I saw five youths running down the street. People don’t talk like that. No, this I saw you got five teenagers, five young people running down the street. But that was your first show and jargon. See, the, uh well, I made you those shows. She’s a major your clock. But look how Look at the comparison. I mean, there’s the 2010 show sheet is just like lines, right? And the 2019 is big paragraphs. Dense. We got more going on. All right. Scott Stein. I got your first, uh, Scott Stein. We first used your music on the September 6 2013 show That’s coming up nine years. Yeah, I know. I’m sorry. Wait. Coming up. Six years starts coming up six years? Yes, exactly. I agree. And ah, so that was And that was the first time we used it. And then your for your first time, live with us. Was the 200 show July 18 2014. Okay, 200. You’ve been here for every anniversary since. Except one. Yeah, there was one. I had to go to your apartment record, right? I think I was gonna be on the road or something. That during that during the live broadcast. So yeah, but I pre recorded way pre recorded cheap red wine and played it. I don’t know if that was the 3/50. It was like the one you’ve been on every anniversary since doing every 50. It’s fun. It’s really like a high. Almost like a highlight of the year I turned summer. I’m like, Oh, pretty soon we’re going to do the New York New York show. You think about just I love it. It’s fun because biggest for me. I worked in radio for years, and it’s like my only radio thing I do anymore. We’re gonna turn Scottie. Alright, cheap red wine. This is the song that I licensed from you in 2013. And of course, we only sample of 10 seconds before the vocals. You know, Uh, so I always wanted it. I always want you to play it live. Yeah, and full. And so, if anything you want to say about cheap red wine, I don’t know. This song is older than the show. Uh, comes from a record that it did back in 2009 10 years ago. And I think the song was had already had it for about a year before that. But, uh, yeah, it’s Ah, it’s been really fun. Thio here. It used in this kind of context, So happy to do it for you, son. Please hurry up, baby. Just keep talking sooner later. Offing a routes to what you mean seeking romantic advice from a bimbo. Dumb luck never answers upon a TV street way can agree on nothing way Get tail or ups from my down It is a pawn in each other now, baby. And this look that we found you know you used if I’m a charming gonna can figure out how And you said you thought I was handsome But it doesn’t matter now so keep fallin lungs Your time will allow because I gotta empty promises every bottle of cheap red wine and wait, Wait, Just diamonds. They won’t talk to the cut of clothing that I wear with good stuff when you’re too easily distracted too. Okay, you got to, man. So I’m gonna do the best that I can, but maybe you have some competition day when I’m a wealthy man. You know, I used to find a charming, but I can’t figure out how you said you thought. Always handsome. But it doesn’t matter now, so get full in my punch. Sloane’s your time allow because I’ve got her and promises a bottle of cheap wine. And let’s raise our glasses to take a drink of better days. The other bilich a kiss like that, you say, And I ain’t gonna kill Helen’s dialogue. National victory signs. Who’s We’re perfect for each other long nobody else. Nobody is way. You know, you used to find me charming, but I can’t figure out how you said your father was. Hanson never minded, no matter now. So he had fallen from a punch. Eyes is like your time will allow. Got her Any promises? Neo-sage I love that. I just love that song. Thank you. There’s nobody waiting in line just like cheap red wine. Love. It’s got Thank you. Thank you so much. E-giving are gonna play another one for us later on. Yeah, the the World release premiere. Um I want to give away a prize. We’ll start with Yes. We’ll start with our prize is the 1st 1 is going to This is these are our recent subscribers to the insider alerts where you get it. You get an email from me every Thursday tells you the guest star insider alerts linked to my video on the 1st 1 The most recent to be subscribed is Dennis Lee. Dennis is executive director at the Marching Elite Foundation. So Dennis is gonna get a pound of cure coffee. Congratulations, Dennis Lee, Your coffee going to Dennis Lee? Thank you for being our most recent insider dentist. And, um, we have a little, uh we have a little We have a little bit about, uh, a little bit about your cure Coffee. Well, what we do, we D’oh! I love your coffee. It’s my favorite cure. A coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. And, you know, with every cup of cure, you joined their effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. They are a direct trade coffee company Now, with learning opportunities for dental students in the U. S and abroad. Cure coffee dot com. I love that mission that is so great. They do the dental work for the farmers of the of the beans because the CEO of the company is a dentist. That’s great. I love that Thomas Godlessness. Fantastic. He’s a dentist in California. Yes, bona fide dds after his name. So maybe I’ll go to California to see him. Because, you know, a good dentist. That’s that’s what you find when you stay for life. I’m going to California for years old Blue Frost and Rutherford, New Jersey. Really? Um, yeah. Trust in, like, 3000 dentists. And then you’re not going to, you know, practice dental loyalty. Well, I D’oh, but I guess I have moved to other places where it’s not practical to my dentist and Carl play. Well done, Island, New York. You’ll dentist with anybody? Nothing. My original dentists. Bad reputation, the bad dental grip. You should practice more dental lorts. I hope you’re practicing safe industry. I have my new dentist in Shady Side Maryland. 1,003,000. Dentists. I hope you’re doing it safely. Um, So there was something, huh? Let’s see. Where are we now? Okay, Is that it’s somebody on the phone. Oh, excellent. Okay. Awesome. That must be Jean Takagi. Hey, Jane. Congratulations. Thank you. That is Jean Takagi Eyes our legal contributor, Jean Jean. The Law machine. You’ll find him at neo-sage log group dot com and he’s at G. Tack on Twitter. Longstanding, longstanding contributor. How are you, Gene? I’m doing excellent. How are you? Oh, very good. It’s the 4450th 9th anniversary, huh? You know, we’re doing great. My voice is cracking, which means I’m excited that we’re doing great. Like I’m 14. Um, what’s going on? It, uh, like Neil latto. What do you, uh, what you all paying attention to in San Francisco? We’re enjoying this summer. It’s not. It’s not so hot here. So we’re having fun here, And, uh, I’m working with my partner, Aaron bradrick and Cindy latto. Actually, who’s the director of the master of masters and science of the non-profit management program at Columbia University. Designed a course for the program that we’re really looking forward to doing that. So does that mean you’re gonna be in New York teaching? I may be a little bit more, but we’re doing the design phase right now. Still in design phase. Okay, but you’re hired, right? It’s not You’re going to do it. We’re all working it out right now. Okay? I won’t make any premature announcements. Would get everybody excited. I’m sure we’ll be the first to know. Yeah, yeah, we’re here. We’re here in New York. It’s gotta be. It’s gonna be the breaking news here, so let us know, Gene. Absolutely. Okay. Um and what would you be teaching? It’ll be a program on sort of a business law issue for for non-profit professionals programme A programme? Oh, not just Of course I was I was minimizing it. What would be like a top topic in that in that class for non-profits that they would need to know about what’s what’s a top 10? Things like public private partnership collaborations and kind of some of the legal issues that may arise in those type of interaction. All right, well, you let us know when it breaks. Gene, you’re, uh I always talk about when you’re first way talk about when you were first on the show and then I never know exactly, but I found it this time. I actually did the legwork. It only took me about three years. We’ve been talking about this, but your very first time on this show was August 27th 2010. Nine years. We have just about nine years. Way had just started in July 1010 1 of the show’s Gene’s been on forever. Yeah, regular contributes an original. Well, that’s why he’s changing the law machine. Yeah, he’s on his own longest running contributor. Not not producer. Is that, like Israel tag liners? That attack line you gave him again? He’s too modest. These jeans. A very modest man. He wouldn’t He wouldn’t do that to himself. Right? So you like Tony? Tony, you cringe, Gene, when I say that the radio machine, it’s just a little bit you blush a little bit. Tony Tony, the radio pony like that? Uh, more like a horse, but not a pony. Move on. All right, Jean, I want to thank you so much for calling. It’s good to talk to you. It’s been always my honor and pleasure to Congrats on for 50 and looking for Thio. All of you. Thanks. Thanks a lot. And he has it in his bio. I love that. Thank you, Jean. Good to talk to you. And thanks so much for what you contribute. Thank you, guys. Thanks. Jane. Already anywhere else on the phone. Okay, then, uh, there was this New York Times article on podcasting. Yes, I saw it. And there’s you emailed, just like two weeks ago that I was so excited. But I thought of you as soon as I read it. I did because I said to a friend of mine I was with my friend Laurie and we were reading New York Times at our favorite Starbucks in Newburyport, Massachusetts, and I turned to Laurie. And I said, Look at this article about podcast and and my friend Tony, He has this long time podcast I think he liked goes down into the history books for the podcast. And I think there were a lot of great points made in that podcast. And Sam talked about one of them. Scott Well, Scott. Oh, so Well, Sam talked about what, The 19%? Yeah. Uh um, from march to May of this year, 19% of podcasts had a new episode, right? And there’s something like 700,000 podcasts, and only 19% of those has have produced a new episode in the last few months. So they’re staying. They’re mostly stay after men s three months. March, April May s O That alone puts us in the 81st percentile just of eso tribute to how much work you put into this. You know, I think one of the up shots of the article was that a lot of people go into podcasting and think it’s easy and think it’s, you know, it’s It’s not as much work as it is. And it’s to your credit that you’ve kept this thing going, not just for the number of years but the number of episodes. It’s a lot of work. You have to really devote yourself to it. And, ah, you know, it’s that the technology may not. Maybe, you know, it may be easy for everyone to get started, but it’s hard to to sustain it. And ah, knowing your audience of having your niche is is a big part of it, which is something that you have it. And they said that in the article, Yeah, yeah, And over the years since I’ve been involved with your podcast, people will be try. Oh, I want to do a podcast. I want to do a podcast and I say, Well, do you have any idea what goes into a podcast? Because my friend Tony martignetti has been doing one for 789 10 10 years now, and and he does them consistently every single week, except for two weeks a year. So he does 50 podcasts a year and to produce a podcast every single week and book the guests and come up with the topics and write all the things and keep the sponsors and work with Sam and and work with Scott. And to get it all done is really a great achievement. So around of applause, that’s a good tagline that zoho that’s a good better than the non-profit pony. Yeah, radio pony Radio Way could let the pony die. I send the money to a farm in the form of a glue factory farm in Vermont. That boy got quickly. Thank you. Thanks a lot. I guess it’s, uh it’s gratifying. It’s just a love affair. I just love doing the show and all the work. Uh, it doesn’t matter, cause I know that, uh, we’re helping non-profits helping small and midsize shops who I always have in mind as I’m as I’m doing it. That’s the God and, Scott, you gotta be in a niche. You gotta be loyal to your listeners that gotta get values value to listeners. Otherwise, right, they’re going to be Oh, there’s Ah, major correlation between that and being a musician, you got to know who your audience is Without that, it’s very, very difficult, right? And provide content specifically for them. And don’t drift off into other places and provide, like something else just cause you want to so right, like you don’t have a sudden play like, you know, the hokey pokey Or do you want me? And I am playing kids music in later? Well, I guess the parallel only goes so far. There’s there’s there’s a balance to be struck for sure, but, uh, we got off the mood strikes. We got somebody on the phone who is very committed to like exactly what we’re talking about. Staying true to mission, not veering. And that is an example. Ward our social media and technology contributors. Do-it-yourself Award. How are you? I’m doing great. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Were you able to hear our conversation while you’re on hold. There. I You did. So we were just talking about staying true to mission, right? I mean, you’re about that. Yeah. And I was reflecting on, you know, the whole, like, 50 episodes a year, All the work that you do to make sure that you have tops and people to join the show and all of those things And how many times we’ve been on. And I wanted to make a joke, but I didn’t make it because I felt like, maybe I maybe I should sensor that joke. But I was Yeah. How is there anything to say anymore? But you always find new things to talk about. And I think that’s to your credit. Thank you very much. You help? You’ve been contributing a long, long time on social media and technology. Your first show with us was, um it was July 13th 2012. The 100 show. Exactly. Right. Um, And at that time, with the 100 show, we had 1000 listeners. So yeah, so two years into this thing. So we started in July 2010 July 2012. Your first show, 100 listeners. I’m sorry 100 shows. We were celebrating having 1000 listeners, and now we’re over 13,000. Wow, that’s pretty cool. I think that’s you know, that’s that’s great. Thanks pretty good. 13,000. Pretty good. 13,000% growth. Is it 15%? I don’t know. 13,000% better. It’s more than 13% stock in that 50% of thousands. 130. It’s 13,000% growth 1000 times. This is not the math show, right? 15,000% growth is 13,007. We got it sends a music show non-profits fun stuff, no matter what’s going on it and 10 dot org’s You know, I love non-profit. You know, I love intent. I’m not supposed to say no. Never What? Uh, what’s going on in time going on while we have, um, 20 ntcdinosaur action proposals just opened. So people are submitting their ideas. And this year, for the first time, we have moved the ignite applications intothe same sessions, a mission timeline. So in the past, ignites which are a type of presentation with five minutes exactly, and you have 20 sign and the slides auto advance every 15 seconds, and they are hosted up on the main stage as one of the general sessions in the morning. In the past, applications to be one of those people opened Ah lot later in the year after registration was already open, they were open in, like, November and December. Okay, but this year we decided to do it all at the same time. So what types of conversations or topics? They want a surface of the conference. They you know, they could do that a little bit more holistically. So, uh, sessions in-kind of more standard breakout format as well as the main stage content, are all open for submissions. Right? Cool. And this is all for really big. This is offer. Then this is all for 20 and T c. Right? Next. Give us the dates for 20. Sure. 20 ntcdinosaur be in Baltimore, Maryland, which we’ve never been to before. I mean, people I’m familiar with the conference has never been hosted in Baltimore, and we will be there march 24th through 26. Okay, Okay. Cool. So submissions air open you goto and 10 dot Or if you want to submit, it’s a very, very good conference. Non-profit radio has been there, I think, half a dozen times. Maybe I’m exaggerating. Maybe it’s only five, but always on the exhibit floor, capturing the brilliant speakers that that a subset of the brilliant speakers that in 10 has and expanding their reach and expanding the reach of the conference. I love doing it, You know I do. Amy, don’t You know I love it. We lose any sample word? Well, trust me, she knows She knows that I love it every step forward. No, no more. Okay, well, I’ll pretend that you may be speaking. Well, it’s a great conference, and everyone should go. And it’s in Baltimore. Yes. And, uh, that’s two of us. Who, speaking for Amy. Amy, thank you very much for calling. And thank you for being ah, contributor for so many years from since the 100 show. Thanks. Thanks so much, Aimee. Simple work. She’s great. Um, let’s I want to welcome one of our new sponsors. Um, and that is, uh, Cougar Mountain Cuckoo Mountain software. They do accounting software for non-profits, the Denali fundez your complete accounting solution specifically designed for non-profits. They have a free 60 day trial and you can find that a tony dot m a slash cougar Mountain. Don’t you talk pretty, tony dot m a slash cougar mountain for your free 60 day trial of the Denali Fund. Your complete accounting solution specifically designed for non-profit. Very excited to hear about it And brand new brand new sponsor. Because because non-profits need things to be more, you know, simple and specific. And Taylor to them agree. Not using QuickBooks, which is designed which is made for corporate and individual and, ah, trying to tailor it to a non-profit. It doesn’t doesn’t work because you got your fund accounting problems, which right? Denali farmer takes takes care of you. Come on to talk about, uh, no, but but he’s the marketing manager. Brian. Brian. Brian blessed our marketing manager who have been working with Welcome, Brian. Glad to have you. Thank you. Thank you for joining. Not properly with a sponsor. Thank you, Brian. And thank you. Cougar Mountain software. Um, you had, you know, a little something going on. You want to talk about a little history? I do. Well, Mr Ethan, will you know, Tony, your show really is historic to may that this is the 450th show. As we discussed earlier in our discussion about how podcasts are, really, you know, it’s just hard to produce these podcasts and keep them going. So so kudos to you for doing this historical show. So today, in honor of that, as you enter the history books, I have a little game for us, a little door just a little today in history thing. So the 1st 1 I want to mention is that and and you asked me when I say that I would do this well, that clears air non-profit angle to it. So I’m gonna try to do my best to Time non-profits to these as much as possible. So in 17 75 the office that would later become the United States Post Office Department was established by the second Continental Congress. Benjamin Franklin, Pennsylvania was the first postmaster general now way have a musical clue for you on the state. In 17 88 a certain state became the first actually became ratified as state in the United States. The 11 state. Which day was it? We have a musical clue wrote down. Try it again. Scott, New York, New York so that non-profit Italian is, Of course, that’s the home of non-profit radio. Oh, that’s tenuous. Oh, my goodness. That’s cool. What? You’re clever. Well, and for the post office one, I was gonna say the tie in is how much not how much mail have non-profits sent over the years through the U. S. Postal Service? Thanks to Benjamin Franklin Weaken, send nice mailers to people to raise money. Clever mailers, envelopes post towards all that, All that. So on this day in 1945 the Labour Party one the United Kingdom General election by a landslide and that removed Winston Churchill from power on this day, the Labour Party. One serious. Winston Churchill was a Tory. I guess I should have done that. But, um yes, of the Labour Party came into power today. So in 1947 Harry Truman signed the National Security Act of 1947 creating the C I A, the Department of Defense, the United States Air Force, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the United States National Security Council. And I do not have a non-profit tie into that. But you know, that’s great. It’s okay. That’s important. Are we Don’t you cut me off because I got a whole thing here. I know. We got it. We got a call her. We have a call or ever sponsored me. Can we come back to our way? I can’t. I don’t want to keep promises. I can’t keep way. Way will try. Okay, you duitz doom. How are you? Hey, Tony. Good. Very good. Very good. How you doing in there? I’m sorry. Thank you very much. Are you in Madison, Wisconsin? Yes, I am. Okay. Of course I’m grateful to you because, uh, you’ve been a guest on the show a bunch of times. In fact, your your first time on the show keeping with the history theme that Claire set up for us. Mystery theme That clears that up for us. Ah, was September 12 2014. So five years ago, almost five years and you’ve been on you’ve been on a couple times. And I’m also, of course, grateful for, uh, for Wagner. C p. A sponsorship. It’s been a couple of years now, and I’m grateful for that. That’s awesome. Yeah. They’ve been with us a couple of years waiting to cps dot com. What’s, um What’s what’s Wagner looking at for non-profits this summer? First of all, we’re really be supporting your show. And I would like to thank you for your dedication again. Um, for nine years now and helping out the other 95% of the pregnancy. The eighties. They were looking at you a constant standard. All the very, very fighting. Okay, Yeah. Don’t go into detail on you. Can’t be gonna be different going forward. It’s gonna be more challenging. And we’re helping our clients kind of, like navigate through the complexity that giving them some implementation plan. Okay. And wedding has a bunch of webinars they’re doing this summer. I’ve been a summer on the fall. I’ve been promoting them on the show. So you’ve got a ramped up Your free resource is for non-profits. Yeah, we started thing, baby nurse. I get like, two years ago now and we plan on doing a lot more and abila xero pompel latto part that other other resource is we’re creating for our clients again. We work with a lot of nonprofit organizations and we understand that they enough resource is sometimes like the other 5% provide that. Yes, Thank you like the other 5%. Thank you very much. Um, eat. We have to go. But I want to thank you again. Thank you for the sponsorship. Thank you for your sharing the value that you do when you’re a guest. And, uh, we’re gonna get it. Be getting you back. I know you and I are working on that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for having their happy contribute. Thanks. Thank you so long. So long. Uh, let’s give away another prize. I don’t give a prize. Another sec a second. Most recent, uh, new insider on this is Thio Alana Cooper, who is the senior director of donor relations at the Jewish Federation of Palm Beach County Beach County, Florida. Alana Cooper is gonna be a bag of your coffee coming your way. Congratulations, Alana. That’s a wonderful non-profit organization. You know what? Your federal I’m very familiar with the Jewish Federation of Palm Beach in that area. Would you, uh, cubine teamviewer quaint? Just with the cure of one more time? Cura Uh, okay. You’re a coffee. Well, I love Kira coffee because it directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. With every cup of cura, you join their efforts to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. They are a direct trade coffee company now with learning opportunities for dental students in the U. S and abroad. Cure a coffee dot com and now I want coffee. Thank you. It’s so hot in here. You sure you want coffee? One iced coffee? It’s the reason the reason I’m here is because the host doesn’t like the air conditioner on really during the during this show. If anyone was wondering because it makes me I don’t care for So that’s why um let’s do the live lister love because we’re, uh, cool like this. Look at this list of listeners. I mean, it’s incredible. Look at this. The sheet of live listeners, um, shot him out. San Francisco, California Middlebury P A. Longview, Texas Tampa, Florida Alexandria, Virginia. I lived My neighbor. You leave is listening. Yeah, sure. Awesome life. Listen, love to Alexandria and Washington D. C. Right by them if he’s listening. Oakland, California monisha, New York, New York. We got multiple New York, New York, as usual. That’s good. Uh, Charlotte, North Carolina. Um, Seoul, Korea. Seoul? Yes. We got Seoul, South Korea, on your haserot. Come So ham Nida, for our Seoul Korea. For our South Korean Romania, Romania is with us. Tulani osili Ramani Iran. Iran. I was I was recently very close to Tehran, Iran. I was nearby. You were living in January. We took a cruise and and for a while my phone gave me a little thing. It said I was in Tehran. All right, let’s take a person. All right. Theron, live. Listen, love out through Tehran. Um s boo. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing right, but the country is Finland. Yes, piela Oh, as proof Inland, Uh, live nation left to you and, uh, also abroad. We got some other broad. Uganda, Kampala, Kampala, Uganda Indeed. Also in South Korea. Got CEO Joo. Were you near Seo? No, but I might go there next year. Okay. Ono Japan and bringing it back. Uh, we got Hell’s kitchen. That’s interesting. Hell’s kitchen. New York shows up differently than New York, New York. That’s funny. A lot of good restaurants Night. They have 10th abila station live listener left to you. And congratulations on showing up separately from all our other New York New York listeners going upstate Watertown, New York is with us. Um, going out a little West West Salem, Ohio, and um oh, Munich, Germany. Gooden, dahna and Freeport, New York Report, Long Island, New York Report New York Right near There you do. I’m pretty far away from Carl koegler York C a R E l E P L A c They’re working on the new train station there. My friend Mary Ann was right by the trains. It is being to get that extra stuff going on. Moscow’s with us. Moscow nasco I don’t and no Russia. And ah said Munich, Germany. All right, so live Mr Love. Awesome. And Sam, if anyone new ones come in, that’s treyz. Would you update us, please? Because I want to shout out everybody falik If there’s all over the place all over the world, it’s incredible. We got multiple multiple continents, indeed. And of course, the podcast pleasantries were multi Continental and were, and even, uh, further reach then the live love is the podcast. Love the podcast. Pleasantries to the outs where the over 13,000 people listening each week on small and midsize non-profits, uh, CEO, executive directors, fundraisers, board members, consultants and other vendors to non-profits. Podcast Pleasantries to you. Thank you for being with us. I hope the show continues to serve. You give you value. I believe it does cause the listener numbers keep growing, so and the feedback I get is positive. So thank you for being with us podcast, especially board members like you. Dorothy Hamill. Today’s her birthday. Today’s Dorothy Hamill’s birthday. What is your boardmember? She is a boardmember or a recent boardmember of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra. How do you know all this? But well, because I researched the whole bit that I was going to do today. So I know your birthday’s today and everything that happened today in history. So I’ve got a musical clue from Scott here. There’s a the original sitcom anarchist, the original sitcom actresses Birthday today. Who is it? Close. It’s Ethel’s birthday. Vivian Vance Vance and she was married to William Frawley know they were well on the show. They hated each other in real life. They hated each other. It’s a legend that was Fred. Fred and Ethel never even spoke off. Hated each other. You got one more. You got another history thing, another history things. So there’s there’s another. It’s another musical clue And someone’s birthday today. What’s the band? Sam knows Rolling Stones today is Mick Jagger’s birthday. Uh, that sounds better on the guitar by, and I do not have, like, a non-profit link to Mick Jagger. Actually, I found that I think he’s kind of not that charitable that he spends a lot of time trying to hide his body from the But he’s born July 20,000 fans she shares a birthday with Britt said non-profit really are all right. Hyre s Let’s, uh, there’s another Tony martignetti in the studio here. Oh, step up. Step up to Scott’s Mike, would you Come on. Come on, Come on. You’re gonna be on a podcast. Yes, I’m gonna like there’s another Tony most second. There’s a second Tony martignetti here. I just want a little shout from better looking. Thank you. Thank you. Come a little closer. That every proud of my son on the work he’s doing for nonprofit organizations goblets and and thank you for your faithfulness. Appreciate it. Thank you, Dad. Thank you. That’s so sweet. And after the show, I’m gonna explain to Dad what a podcast is. He’s got to start his own podcast. Uh, all right, well, uh, Scott, I wanted to Ah, what you do? Another song you got? You got a world world premiere. Yeah. Uh, they said earlier on the show. I wrote this this morning, which is half true. Um, I have had a part of this song running through my head for the better part of, ah month. And then I wrote a quick, rough draft Ah, a couple of weeks ago, and then I wasn’t quite sure where the music was gone, and I put it aside. And this morning I had about 15 minutes, and I was like, Let’s just let’s just finish this song, right? You know, sometimes songs spring songs are like, Sometimes it’s like pulling teeth. And sometimes it’s like cooking breakfast. And, uh, this one’s been a little of each make on fits and starts. So what is it? Uh, I have a number of ah, All right. World release a cz yet? Untitled. Yeah, I think I got a couple possible titles. Ilsen Okay, maybe we’ll challenge. Maybe we’ll challenge listeners to come up with a title for Scott Stein. So listen closely. And, uh, at the end at the end, we’ll tell you how you can reach Scott with your title suggestion. Great. Great. All right. How does this go again? I am only half joking now. That’s too all right. Uh, Getsem inside information. Someone’s me a copy of the master plan. Sources were dependable, but they’re in a language I don’t understand. You know what? I’ve always been a sin for as long as I can remember. Always skipping past super landings. Always looking for that snow in September. Good. The way you play the song. Always someone since long Booth. Some days your own busy Some days you can’t get a damn thing done. Some days you get the car key. Some days it’s the keys to the king. Sometimes the changing of the guard, professor than changing of Caesar way Sometimes the people that you love way very good reason. Wait. I once was beginning. Wait, don’t just watch. You know, watching you know. All right, Scott, that Claire was smiling. Way no, Scotty. So talented. He’s right here. And this is great. Absolutely often do have, like this really good artist right in front of you Sing a song he just wrote first here. I think my favorite part was hit the last court, and there was a truck or something going by honking his horn. I’m saying I don’t like you understand? Like those of you who are listening. I’m on a keyboard. I’m not on a piano, so I’m going like this. Think didn’t just go out. Oh, what did I hit? A wrong note. I think I was right. It’s got if if people do wantto well, give you feedback and or maybe even give you a suggested title, How did they reach you? Uh, on social media on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. I met Scott Stein music on my wife’s a Scott Stein music dot com where you get to come out to bar chord in Brooklyn on Monday. And there’s my little plugs. There are New York, New York and Hell’s Kitchen listeners. Absolutely. Um, when else do you play in New York? Give us a little, um right now I’m actually just getting back into playing gigs. Uh, I’m just getting back into the into the map. for a while. Um, I took a little hiatus. My wife and I had a baby in October. Maybe boy and early October. What? October, uh, cover nine. Nice. Very nice. And thank you. So s so. I took a little time off from that. And as could imagine, my spare time is non existent these days. So it’s every second is precious these days. And, er eso I’m doing I’m doing this show tomorrow and I’m doing another one back-up Bark or another song Writers in the round on August 19th of things. The date’s on Monday evening and then hopefully more on the fall once I’m sleeping a little. Congratulations. Awesome. Thank you. We got we got another new sponsor on the phone. Peter panepento. How are you? I’m doing great. How are you? Very well, thank you. Peter panepento is with turn to communications, and they’re also a brand new sponsor of non-profit radio. So I thank you very much for that, Peter. Yeah, Thank you. Unfortunately, I didn’t bring my keyboard or my singing voice quite entertaining. No, no, you’re Scott Scott is up to the company. Would have been up to your competition too. So uh, what’s turned to tell us? You know, I’m telling listeners 32nd bursts, but you could take 45 seconds and tell us what turned to is about. Sure. So turn to is a consulting company. We provide PR and communications and marketing support, too. Non-profits and foundations. And it stems from my experience in the non-profit and foundation world. I was an editor or a number of years, the Chronicle philanthropy, and actually had a co host a podcast with you way back when Tony and Thea to see you’re still going so strong after all these years. And we’re really adept at hoping translate the messages that, um that non-profits hell thio to their key audiences and making sure that we’re doing it in a way that really resonates with them and help them make a bigger impact with their work. And, of course, their turn hyphen too dot Co ceo. Um, Peter, you were You were first on this show. Now I was on. I was on your show when you were ah, doing a podcast for The Chronicle. We’re not sure who was first, but I I know. I don’t know. I don’t know if you could look back in your archive, but I look back to the non-profit radio archive and you were first on non-profit radio on August 13th 2010. That was our that was our second month. So you are also very early newcomer. Yes, we were. Yeah, we were. We were blazing new trails back then, Tony, and it’s really amazing how much podcasting and digital radio has has grown up since then. It’s, uh it’s really been been really cool to have been on the ground floor of things like podcasting in social media and and webinars and everything else that we were doing at the Chronicle back in-kind of the explosion of the Internet. And and it’s been really, really cool. You you started out as as one of the, uh, as one of the staple podcasters for The Chronicle back when we were when I was there, too, and, um, hard to believe it’s almost 10 years now that’s making me feel quite old. It is. Uh, you’re referring. I think Thio fund-raising fundamentals which you produce. We collaborated on that. Peter and I would collaborate. It was it was a chronicle chronicle podcast, and I was on that I did a e-giving one. You were on fund-raising fundez forgot. Thank you. Yes, that’s right. That was That was that was a different format with 10 minutes. We were people. We were trying to keep those, like, 10 12 minutes. Max, Right? Right. Yes. And the thinking was we needed to keep it short for people to want to listen to us for tea, get to the end that way. Wanted to keep it short and tight. And you’ve really been ableto build a really engaging, thoughtful, long format program. And the fact that you do it so consistently is is really a testament Thio your skillet this but also the amount of work. You’re putting it really incredible. Thanks a lot, Peter. And, uh And who would have thought when you were a guest, 2010 our second month that nine years later you’d be your company? You have a company, and you’d be sponsoring non-profit radio knife. I thank you for being our newest sponsor. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to do it. I’m thrilled to be associated with it and hope you have 454 Thank you. Thanks a lot. We’ll be talking. Thanks a lot, Peter. So long. All right. Thank you. Bye. We got Maria Semple online. Maria Semple. How are you? I’m doing very well. Thanks. How are you? Awesome. Thank you for calling. Maria. Simple That she’s the Prospect Finder. She’s at Maria Simple. She’s the You’ll find the site prospect finder dot com No, wait. I messed that up. You know the prospect finder dot com The prospect finder dot com All right. To the source. And she’s at Maria. Simple. Did I get that right? That’s right. After all these years, you would think I would know. Yes. All right. How are you, Maria? Simple. I’m doing very well today. Thank you. Okay. And we’re well here, too. Is having a great time there? Yes, we are. 4/50 anniversary shows were always cool. Absolutely. Um, congratulations. You got what you got going on for your summer. Ah, well, I am calling you today from the beautiful downtown waterfront in Beaufort, North Carolina. Uh, yes, yes. Uh, can I stay here? The weather finally broke. We don’t have the crazy humidity today, so all is good. Are you on your boat. Wonderful. Wonderful. I am effort. That’s awesome. Um, okay. Uh, so I wanted to congratulate Scott as well. Real quick. I heard that he had a baby. I love the new song. It’s a good life. I have a feeling that maybe, uh, did the baby get some inspiration to that? That song, perhaps. I love it. Yeah, you may have. May have uncovered something in there. Yeah, that’s certainly at the forefront of, like everything I do. Right? Oh, thank you. Yeah. Maria, your first show with us was August 12th 2011. So you’re You’re a newcomer. You’ve only been on eight years. You’re a newcomer. Oh, boy. Don’t hold that against nine years. I think it’s pretty. That’s quite the legacy. My nose was cool, but she’s been gone eight of nine years. 9 8/9 What’s that? That’s a lot of divide. A nine latto percent that? Yeah, that’s a long time. So the Prospect Finder and the first thing we talked about was linked in for prospect research. That was your first subject with my like Clinton linked in. Yeah, it did for prospectuses. Right there. It’s bonified duvette duvette no duitz still talking about that today? Yes. So what’s your latest? Yeah, what’s the latest thing we should know about Lincoln and Prospect finding? Um Well, you can definitely do an awful lot still with the advanced search feature for free. And, um, you know, some folks deciding to take advantage of a free month of premium Thio get the, you know, the additional search fields and so forth. So certainly something to think about. I love Lincoln. Great. Yeah. Yeah, because after all these years of, like, sort of collecting people, it’s like this awesome roll index that keeps updating itself, and you never know. You might find I have. I’ve gotten a lot of work from lugthart valuable. Yeah, well, people will, like, sort of follow me on Lincoln for a while, then refer me to someone and mostly biggest. They know me from linked it not from in person, so it’s kind of interesting. Yeah. Okay. Glad it’s working for you. Reassemble. And so you feel like the free premium is worth checking out, Maria? Uh, definitely. Yeah. Why not? I mean, if you could do something for free for 30 days, why not? Um, definitely, But have a plan. I have a plan to use it and implement it well and do something with all of the great data that you’re gonna uncover. Okay, Cool. Thank you. Maria Semple. I got, uh we have to move on to another prize. But thank you so much for calling Maria. And thank you. Thanks, Maria. Thanks for all your years. Contributing 88 years. Thank you so much. Congratulations. Thank you. I want to give away another prize. We said it was like two minutes left in the hole. The hole in the whole shebang here, this’ll one is gonna be This is a book. It’s gonna be a book from the I’ll tell you what it’s going to be. Peter panepento. His book. Yes. It’s going to Peter’s book. All kinds of great information on marketing, communications and getting your message across and not using jargon. Exactly. It’s modern media relations for non-profits, which he co authored. He cooperated with the Internet car because you could be your own. Oh, I know into it. I think I might not think I’m in that book. Really? Yes, but no. I think I think I was interviewed for that book. actually now that because it’s Internet. And that was my grandmother’s name in the book. There was, Dad. Thanks, Peter. Thanks to put me in the book, So, yes, but yet because now I think these days you could be your own media mogul. You don’t have to rely on the traditional media. You can. You can be your own media mogul. Well, Barry, Steven’s gonna learn that he’s gonna get the book. Mayberry R. Stevens. He’s president of the Northeast Louisiana Arts Council. Barry Stevens with a V, not a ph. President. Northeast Louisiana Arts Council. Peter panepento book is gonna be coming to you, Barry. And, uh, we got a pretty much wrap it up. Scott Stein. So much. Thanks so much, Scott. Hey. My pleasure. Glad you guys are doing this practically in my backyard. Well, not quite. I’m in Brooklyn now, but we were in my I don’t have come to North Carolina or DC to do it right here in New York City. And the next time we all get together, which show is it gonna be? It’s gonna be the 500. Uh, summer. We’re going to get a celebrity to come in. I gotta work on that. I’m gonna find us a celebrity to come into the studio. Don’t look at me. I think should neo-sage No, you’re a celebrity. I made another kind of celebrity. I have someone in mind, I think. Claire, thank you so much for co hosting. Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me here was wonderful. Thank you so much. Happy for 50th. Thank you. Next week. Inconceivable That metric does not mean what you think it means. Plus Google analytics and Google optimize If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner CPS Guiding you beyond the numbers Wagner c p a gps dot com weinger cps dot com By Cougar Mountain Software Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial Also sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn to dot CO. That’s turn hyphen, T w o dot Co and for the 450th show sponsored by Cure a coffee connecting coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest finest organic coffee beans. Cura coffee dot com Don’t you talk pretty? Thanks. Thanks, everybody. Thank you so much for being with us for the 450th show. The ninth anniversary non-profit Radio Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I say that every single week Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez who did are live tweeting today. Thank you very much, Susan. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and I say this every week. Do this Music is by Scott Stein, Brooklyn, New York, with me next week for non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% go out on Be great! You’re listening to the talking alternate network You’re listening to the Talking Alternative network Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time And listen for new ideas on my show Beyond potential Live life Your Way on talk radio dot N Y c on the aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Fridays 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s 12 noon on talk radio dot You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting 24 hours a day. Do you love, or are you intrigued about New York City and its neighborhoods? I’m Jeff Goodman, host of Rediscovering New York Weekly showed that showcases New York’s history, and it’s extraordinary neighborhoods. Every Tuesday live at 7 p.m. We focus on a particular neighborhood and explore its history. It’s vibe. It’s field and its energy tune and live every Tuesday at 7 p.m. On talk radio dahna, you’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network.

Nonprofit Radio for February 15, 2019: DEI & Governance

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Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: DEI & Governance
Diversity, equity and inclusion run deeper than having folks of color on your board. Are you managing treatment, access and opportunity for non-white males? Gene Takagi and I talk through the issues, goals and methods. He’s our legal contributor and principal at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.




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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with like Oper diagnosis if you made me breathe in the idea that you missed today’s show. D I and governance, diversity, equity and inclusion run deeper than having folks of color on your board. Are you managing treatment, access and opportunity for non white males? Jean Takagi and I talk through the issues, goals and methods. He’s our legal contributor and principal at Neo Non-profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group on Tony Steak, too planned giving one piece at a time. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant but Wagner CPS guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye. Tell US Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mole donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine Always a genuine pleasure to welcome Jean Takagi back to the show. He’s managing attorney of Neo, the Non-profit and exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s the American Bar Association’s twenty sixteen, outstanding non-profit lawyer. He’s at G Tak. You know, it means Gene. Gene, the law machine. Welcome back, Jean Takagi. Thanks, Tony. How are you? It’s a pleasure to have you. I’m well, thank you. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you as well. Thank you. I think maybe this is just the first shot misses. And you’ve been on before? Yeah. You have been on to the new year. No, I haven’t. I think this might be the first one was the first buyer, and this is February fifteen thousand. Alright, well, so we wish you a happy New year anyway, on DH and I I hear you wishing it back. So thank you very much. It’s never too late. Never too late to say pleasant things to each other. Um all right. So diversity, diversity, equity and include vision. I feel like we should first identify our terms. That is that is that everybody knows that diversity, equity and inclusion are not the same thing. This is not like, what’s the law, you know, aiding and abetting. You know the law, he says. The synonyms mean the exact same thing. Break and enter or, you know, a dahna bet this’s not this is not that this is not that. So what? What? How would you define diversity? Arika? Well, I think you know, it’s a great point that that it’s not a belt and suspenders approach these three different terms, meaning three different things. So diversity, I think, is the range in way people different people differ, and it’s used often in reference to race, ethnicity, gender, age, national origin is big, and the news now religion, disability, sexual identity and orientation, socioeconomic status, marital status, language, physical appearance and just a number of other characteristics. So it’s just reflects the way that we’re all different from one another. Equity is the quality of being there, I think, with respect her rights and treatment, and access and opportunity and advancement for all people. It’s kind of the constitutional principles that we think of equal protections of the law and all of us having the right toe. Life, liberty and justice and persons and organizations that work towards a more equitable society focus on understanding the root causes of the inequities, and they’re looking to identify and eliminate barriers and, of course, increase justice and fairness, both on a micro level on on a macro level and that final term Tony inclusion is really the state of creating or maintaining environments in which any individual or group Khun B and feel welcomed, respected, supported and valley to fully participate, embracing differences among different people. So diversity gets us one part of the way. But without inclusion, diversity may mean very little. Yeah, on organization could be diverse. But that doesn’t mean that it’s inclusive because divers is just a photograph of ah, multi racial, multi ethnic, multi gender aboard. But that doesn’t mean that that that that board is inclusive on DH, creating the right kinds of environments like you’re talking about. Yeah, absolutely right. So if we you know, we might approach that that topic and in a bit. But if we just bring in people of marginalized communities like certain minority groups or certain gender groups or all of the other categories we talked about and they’re just tokens but not given any authority, and they just make for the good picture that you were talking about. Well, that’s not inclusive. Or and that’s not equitable at all. That’s just having diversity for diversity. Stake? Yeah. Yeah, for a good photograph and a like a check box or something. All right. So is this. Ah, well, this is an area that non-profits are, uh, working on. I mean, it’s an area that our whole countries working on. It’s it’s in our culture with black lives, matter and metoo and, uh, marriage, marital equality. So it’s this is not certainly certainly not unique to non-profits, but but our our national consciousness has been raised. Um, how do you feel? Or how are non-profits faring? I mean, and what do you see among the groups that you work with? Two? Sure. I mean, it’s a great point, Tony, that this is in our national conscience. And, uh, there are a lot of tension and controversies where these what I will think our our moral issues are at play, and we’re looking at legal solutions on sometimes opposites sides of what some people will consider moral and Justin, others might say, are not a matter of morality but my position. And I think the position of most of the organizations we’ve worked within. And I’ll note that we do work in San Francisco, and we work with them non-profits in New York as well. And those air, certainly, um, uh, centers that that might be seen as more liberal than other areas. But, uh, there are, I think, these basic beliefs that, you know, some people are born with certain advantages or disadvantages, no choice of their own. Some people are born with certain characteristics or abilities, and some are not have no choice of their own. And many of us believe that we should work TTO help assure that all people have equal rights, equal protection, equal opportunities. And that’s sort of the moral case for saying, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion in our non-profits really matters because if we’re not leading in these areas is a nonprofit sector there’s there’s a question about that’s not a core value, really, is what the work we’re doing just focused on benefiting certain groups and maintaining status quo and improving the status quote for certain people with power and privilege. So that’s that’s kind of where I stand on that. Yeah, um, we may as well just call this right out. I mean, I feel an obligation to do that, You know, when we say certain people, some people no fault of their own, whenever you know, born with privilege and power and status. I think talking well, We’re talking about white males. There’s a There’s a white male supremacy culture in the country. And, um, that’s what creates structures that are oppressive, you know, day to day to people who don’t enjoy that power and have that that perceived status and and you know it. It creates a lack of opportunity and oppression and, ah, difficulty and just like day to day struggle, that it’s hard. It’s hard to. It’s hard for others for me to appreciate. I try, but it’s hard to understand the full the full impact of it. And I appreciate that, Tony. It’s I mean, it’s a different I mean obviously a complex and difficult to discuss subject. It makes us all uncomfortable, which is part of the reason we need to have these discussions on the board level and on a broader organizational level. Let me sort of make one sort of caveat to all of this. In America, with white male culture can be seen is, you know, the dominant color alter with the power and privilege very fairly in various duitz. Observe that, and that’s obviously a very informed opinion that you have with others and I’ll even say it’s not an opinion. It really is a fact. But marginalization goes beyond race to, you know, and and gender. It goes to sexual identity and orientation. Religion, nationality, wealth. Wealth is a big one. I think age now disabilities, um and I don’t necessarily, you know, have the capacity to understand all of those aspects, and nobody really has the capacity to ask, Understand the aspects of marginalization for all the different groups that we may have. And we do categorize people on a number of different levels and have to recognize that these are off often overlapping and interdependent zsystems um, that that involved discrimination and disadvantage, and some people refer to this is intersectionality. But it is something that we’re all dealing with this country and the one that you raise. Maybe it’s the one that’s primarily on her, uh, our attention right now. And that’s kind of the white male dominated, uh, power and privileged class of individuals and how our institutions have developed over our history with that perspective on informed by that group on how difficult it is to change on recognize the problems that we have if we just continue to go down that path and try to make little incremental changes to the system to make it a little bit fair rather than to think about rethinking some of these and re imagining how how more equitable systems could take their place. But the white male power structure, though I that’s the that’s the root of all of it. It it seems, you know, the more I read and think that’s that’s the foundation of it. Of all the all the inequities, I myself apologize. We’ve got to take a break, but we’re coming right back to this gene. Stay right there. But I have to take care of our sponsors, too, Pursuing their newest free book, The Art of First Impressions. It’s all acquisition. To attract, acquire new donors, you have to make a smashing first impression. They re book has the six guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy. How to identify your unique value, plus creative tips. You’ll find it on the listener landing page at Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P for please. Now let’s go back, Tio, My conversation with Gene and D. I and governance. All right, So Jean, you know, and so I think that’s the route is the white male supremacy, Um, and you know, And so you and I have to have a safe, you know, safe space for conversation. And it so happens there thirteen thousand people who are going to listen to this. But, you know, you and I, we know each other. So we I for the first time in, like, eight and a half years, I’m feeling a little awkward, but, um, I think if I say that, then that helps me. Teo, we’ll give it voice and just recognize it and say that’s that’s how I’m feeling. But we have to, you know, we’re two people who have known each other for for those eight and a half years, we’ve had lots of conversations where? Thirteen thousand people? Well, years ago, it was only fifteen hundred. But now it’s thirteen thousand. Have listened, and we’ve always been fine. So you know, you’re in a safe space. I’m in a safe space way. Have we have good heads when we have good judgment and, you know, just we have to just, ah, acknowledge there’s a little There was a little attention. At least I was feeling it you know, and just have toe. Okay. You know, these are just the’s air manageable topics. Fair enough. That sounds okay. Absolutely. Tony. And I’m appreciate you having you know, this conversation. It’s obviously one again that’s super sensitive, and I’m sort of, um, the beneficiary of certain powers and privileges myself, so I can appreciate. While I’m of Asian American descent and I have dealt with certain inequities because of that, I can certainly appreciate the many powers and privileges of I’ve had because of my background, including being a male and including living in AA community, where Asian American males are not that uncommon. So it’s a difficult discussion tohave, and everybody’s gonna have a different perspective on this, but I think again, making sure that people do have this discussion at every table. So at the board table, at the dinner table with your family, I think these are important discussions and, um way only benefit by talking about this. Even if there are disagreements. And even if there are attentions and a certain level of uncomfortable feeling that I get generated by them on get’s, you know, we challenge ourselves. I mean, you know, you have your own business. You’ve you’ve broken out. You’ve you’ve challenged yourself in lots of ways. I have my own business. I have a show that, you know, half years ago didn’t exist, you know, So we’re open to challenge, and so we shouldn’t fear another challenge. We’re just taking on another challenge. I gets a sensitive topic, but that doesn’t mean it’s insurmountable by any by any stretch we’re both accustomed to challenge. So we’re challenging ourselves. I mean, you spent twenty minutes on Twitter, hominy, hominy, uh, you know, postings the seasons, challenge yourself and break outside. And those who don’t think differently think, think like everybody else. And where would we be if we all were of that sort? You know, I mean, you see that stuff on Twitter and Facebook all the time, And so now we’re, you know, I mean, you and I live it, Ah, lot, because we have our own businesses. But now we’re doing it in a a different way. A different arena, but still the same thing. It’s the same concept. It’s a it’s a challenge. And it’s ah, it’s overcome oppcoll I agree? Absolutely. Absolutely. If you don’t have the difficult discussions, then you’re probably not advancing a zoo, group or organization. Very well, right? And if you don’t challenge yourself, you’re not. You’re not advancing and growing as a person. That’s because that’s what I was getting to absolutely agree. So All right, so what if you’re on a board and you feel you’ve, you feel like, uh, the board does not reflect or the leadership of the organization. Let’s even bring in the CEO of senior leadership. But you’re a boardmember because we’re talking about defying governance. Um, and you don’t feel like the that that leadership, as I defined it, represents the the people that you’re serving doesn’t represent the communities that you’re serving. What do you think you should do? Hyre It’s a fantastic question, and I think that’s the one that everybody is asking right now, Tony. And partly because we keep getting these results, uh, that show that the nonprofit sector has really not been leading by example in terms of diversity on its board of directors or diversity in its leadership. I think the first thing we need to do is acknowledge that is that we’ve been doing pretty much a terrible job is a nonprofit sector in terms of getting diversity on our boards and diversity in an inclusive way, of course, so I wanted to raise. There was a survey by board source in two thousand seventeen called Leading with intent, and it found that ninety percent of CEOs and board chairs were white. Eighty four percent of board members were white, and twenty seven percent of non-profit boards were entirely wait. And these are bear improvements over a similar survey that they conducted more than twenty years ago. So, yeah, ah ah, highly disproportionate group and we were talking about power and privilege. Um, a really disproportionate number of Non-profit non-profit leaders in governance and CEO rolls are white. And when we talk about this in terms of larger organizations on and sort of the hyre paying CEO position, the gender differences come out as well, where a lot of white males again are dominating on those boards. And in those CEO position, Um, somewhat reflective of, you know, for-profit Fortune five hundred company CEOs and boards where there’s been actual movement, Teo increase att least on a gender basis. Some diversity on their boards. But Non-profits so far have been just doing the terrible drops, I think. Acknowledging that and saying whatever we’ve been doing so far, his not been very good. I think that’s the first place to start. Okay, So you could say, you know, our board is not unique. Our leadership. Sorry of the way. Our seven. Our leadership is not unique. You know, here’s the statistics. The trend is awful. The numbers compared to the twenty years ago, it’s either flat or just our bare improvement there or it’s a walk back. So we’re not unique, but we But we can be leaders on DH. It doesn’t make me comfortable, Teo to be on a to be a part of this organization, that it doesn’t reflect the people we’re serving. Um, first thing I suppose you are a boardmember. Er I don’t Should you? What would you What would you suggest in terms of bringing it up? Would you bring it up in a board meeting now? Probably not mean, you should. You want to have ah, a couple of back channel discussions first, right before you before you make this a, uh ah, ah, anew. What’s it called on agendas? You do boardmember is all the time A new Your business new business before you bring it up is there are lots of hard work that hard work for me to find. If you have a five minute discussion at the end of the board meeting about this topic, it’s not really gonna go. Yeah, you’re very far not introduce it as an issue and put it really on the back burner, if that’s how you’re going to raise it. So I agree some back channel discussions among some of the board leadership and bringing in the CEO to say, You know, this has been a problem in the sector. Let’s take a look at our own board and lets see, do we have this issue as well? And there’s a little bit of, you know, something that’s been called in the racial context. White fragility about being very defensive about about this and think, you know, Yeah, the sector is awful at diversity and equity on board. But you know what? Our boards really different. Even though you know, our composition might exactly make up our community. We’ve got a few people you know who are persons of color, or we’ve got a few people who were women or however you wantto look a diverse. But do they have to testify that you’re being very defensive? Very defenses? I think, having open discussions about, well, what would this organization’s board look like? Ideally, in an ideal world, what would this board be composed of? What different perspectives can we bring in? And why would we want diversity on our board, Our specific board? We know it’s a problem across the sector. We know that maybe on an organizational level, we haven’t always done the best job. But we feel like we have our hearts in the right place. Well, what would this ideally look like? And I think maybe that’s the starting point of discussion to say, Why do we want diversity? What tack of diversity do we want? And ideally, what would that bring out our organization? Why would that make us on it further our mission in a more effective and efficient way. Why would that make our organization be more sustainable over the long run? And maybe after that sort of sort of going for the positive first, maybe after that going? Well, what happens if we don’t do anything about it? Are we going to still be relevant? Are we still going to be around in ten or twenty years? Are we going to still be able to serve our populations as well? If we don’t do anything about these things. So I think those are the questions you ask. Maybe start with the positive and then go to the alternatives. What if we don’t do anything? I’m feeling like Tio. If the board is goingto have, uh, focus on this and have meetings around this and that a professional facilitator could be really valuable because, you know, because of the things that that I talked about and you you seem to feel too, you know, ten minutes ago, and that’s just two of us who know each other very well. You know, but I can imagine a board of eight or ten people, and the defensiveness starts coming up. I could see where a professional facilitator could be really valuable. Absolutely, Tony. And one who has experience dealing with DEA issues. Right, Because they they are particularly sensitive. Just a strategic management consultant who doesn’t deal with this and who might be a member of a powered and privileged class might not have the same perspectives and sensitivities to be ableto bring in the discussion than the understandings of the board members. Teo, be able to move this discussion forward in a way that will actually promote inclusiveness and equity in the organization. Just when would you just said d? I was just thinking this is a really It’s a good thing they don’t call it, uh, equity inclusion and diversity. That would be I’d improvised explosive device. And this this stuff can be really explosive. So if you’re not so I think I just if you’re not careful, you could you could you? If you’re not careful, you could die from the i e d of D I Yeah, that’s absolutely all sorts of possible acronyms. And I hear E. D. I is a frequent acronym on this issue as well. But, yeah, put the put the letters together in the wrong order, and those are the bad things that can happen. You could die from the from the explosiveness of deeds of I of d I. So All right, So what are some of the positives? And, you know, we were going to take inventory. The positives. Then we’re going to take inventory of the negatives to the fear the change. Some people gonna lose their board slot over years. This is obviously not gonna happen in six months. It’s not even happening. One board cycle. But if it’s going to if the organization will be committed to it, you know, there’s going to be costs and benefits. But so what? What? What? Can we identify some of the benefits of having a board that does represent Ah, leadership? Sorry, I keep saying board, but leadership that does reflect the community that we’re serving. What We know someone we know, some advantages. I mean, I because I could spitball a couple, but what do you What do you think? Well, I I think maybe the common sense advantage that we can all probably think about say, that makes sense is that when you got diverse perspectives and diverse backgrounds, it’s going to result in. Mohr informed better decision making because it’s not a bunch of people with the same experiences on the same backgrounds in the same kind of understandings of certain things. You’ve got more, more different thoughts, a different thought. Leadership in there and diverse leadership attracts broader community support. It also leads to greater equities because you’re now thinking about well how to our programs or how our services effect not only just sort of people in general, but segments of our communities. How are we doing with our African American communities or with our Latin next communities or with our Asian American communities with our LGBT communities? And you know those air things that we can all sort of bring in more diverse boards in an inclusive, diversity. Inclusive manner, of course, brings more different perspectives. Beings Mohr leadership that’s informed by different ideas and different backgrounds on DH that really helps out on, you know, also different networks. You’re opening up the opportunities for for for networking and who could be brought to the organization by having a more representative, diverse and inclusive board just absolutely latto napor networks and I think thunders now are starting to become very interested in this area’s well. So in terms of attracting the funders, if you rely, at least in part, on having grants coming from foundations, um, there’s trying to become more and more interested in this space. And part of the reason why is because there has been a lot of backlash against Thunder’s not taking into account DEA in the past, on their being called out and there have been different books. I’m not sure if you’ve been sort of talking with people about these areas, but on and had your argast has been, he wrote Winners Take all, which was on The New York Times top one hundred books list and that talks about sort of power and privilege and philanthropy and how, it seems, you know, serves to perpetuate inequities. Well, foundations are sensitive to that, and I know there are some foundations like the Ford Foundation, that are actually really moving, um, to address some of the inequities that have been caused by by foundations. There’s rob racial Stanford, who just wrote just e-giving who talks about tax policy and how wealth and philanthropic giving like that by maybe like somebody like Jeff Bezos who pledged two billion dollars to charity is really something that deserves not our gratitude but our scrutiny because of his ability to shape policy. You hung that money, influence things going forward and again in a way that a white male sees importance but not addressing it with a broader community. So I think the philanthropic sector is more interested in funding in these areas now, as they’ve been called out on it. Uh, and so if you’re a charity just dependent upon it, it’s gonna really be important out to your funders, many of them and increasingly, mohr that you’ve got a diverse board that has taken into account different populations that it may serve. Are we gonna take a break? Someone we did have on this show just just a few weeks of December. Edgar Villanueva, Uh, the author of the book de Colonizing Wealth and his thesis that use money as as healing For all the past inequities over centuries, Edgar is excellent. Also. Jean, When we come back, let’s let’s talk some about some of the downsides, the fears that we’re going to have to categorise and and list and deal with also among the leadership for this change. Andi, let’s talk some about token ization, too. Weinger CPAs anew Archive Webinar foryou. Accounting update. What has changed that Wagner knows intimately. If you can get intimate with accounting, you shouldn’t get into it with accountants. But but that’s hard. We’re talking about the topics that they know intimately, and you just need to know them a little bit so you don’t need to be intimate with them like the accounting update. New requirements for financial statements. You find this at regular cps dot com. Click Resource is then Webinars. Now time for Tony Steak, too. Take your plan. Giving one piece at a time. I was watching a tree get cut down in my father’s yard like Abraham like, uh, and I was thinking about planned giving. I did not think about honesty. I was thinking about No, wait, That was, Who was the tree? That was George Washington, not Abraham Lincoln, right? Cutting this tree down. That was George Washington. Um, but I wasn’t thinking about either of those Anyway, I was thinking about plans e-giving there’s a guy up in in the bucket and he throws a rope around a branch so that it doesn’t fall uncontrolled after he cuts it. And that’s just like you need to have a couple things in place. Simple things. Just simple rope, that’s all. Nothing elaborate but simple rope thrown over another branch. You need to have a couple things in place before you start your plan giving like, you want to know who your prospects are going to be. We’re gonna be promoting this, too. You wanna have some? Ah, simple plan for going ahead. And then you can go ahead and start your promotion. The cutting. And that would be, of course. You start with bequest. Just take it one piece at a time. Just the way I watched this guy cut this tree down One branch of the time it took ah, full eight hour day and including all the clean up. So you take it one step at a time. And, of course, I’ve got clips of ah, thiss tree surgery, all as part of my video at tony martignetti dot com. Now let’s go back, Teo. Gene on DH talk about D I. Diversity, equity and inclusion and governance. So, Jean, some of the some of the negatives that we’re going to have to deal with, um what what do you fear of change? I mean, I’ll throw a fear of change. Like I said earlier, some boardmember is going to lose their seats. I don’t know that hands are going to be going up and saying, OK, I’ll surrender my seat, even though I’ve got I’ve got two terms left because our by-laws called for three times. But I’ll give up my last two terms for there to be a person of color in my seat. I don’t think that’s gonna happen. So what are what are some of the negatives were going to deal with? Sure. So, you know, in addition to the one that you mentioned about, well, you know, does that mean I have to go was a boardmember because I’m a white male and be replaced by somebody else? That’s not necessarily the case, but that is certainly one of the fears that comes up more. General fear is maybe that Hey, we’ve got some great board members here, but they happen to be white. Does that mean we have to let them go? So that’s one of this year’s They’re stuck on a government structure that says, okay, maybe we were goingto have at nine boardmember Zohra ratio of four to ten, and you have ten board members and nine happened to be white. And you think they’re all great people? You don’t want to lose any of them, so the side as well, we can’t make our board more diverse without losing good people. And that’s a difficult discussion. Tohave One solution maybe increased the size of your board. You go. It’s not It’s not an either or, you know, good, bad. Kind of No, that’s a center in institutional structure. Way. Have to sacrifice some loose, um, good white people so we can get people of color on know just what you suggested. How about we just expand the size of the board? Yeah, but in some cases, it might be good for some people to step aside. And I say that with respect to age as well, because, well, we haven’t talked about it very much. Ah, Non-profit boards tend to be kind of older to Tony as you may know, uh, and young people, particularly millennials. Andi, even some Jen acts are just not getting onto boards. And they’re losing interest because nobody’s recruiting them. So people stepping aside to let in younger generations new thoughts, new ideas, new backgrounds and bring them onto the board, I think is just incredibly important as well. Yeah. You know something? I’m I’m thinking, um, you know, any of these solutions or methods? I really I don’t want to call a solution a method of process that we’re talking about. Jean, you know, may or may not work for aboard, but I guess what my goal for this show is just to encourage the conversations. You need to figure out what’s gonna work best for your organization. Um, you you know? So yeah, you need to You need to tailor these ideas of just But but think about it, you know, be introspective. And if there’s if there’s some If there’s angst, you know, talk about it and give it voice and think about a way a way forward of making the situation better. I could not agree any more with you, Tonia. Absolutely right. I did want to address some of the other challenges, a swell that you raised about having these discussions. Because while it’s great to say, you should have these difficult discussions, there are these barriers to them. And so I think it’s okay to acknowledge that there barriers, including this fear of losing good board members or maybe getting kicked off the board yourself. But, you know, in addition to that, you know, people are thinking about well, in our mission really isn’t about diversity on, and it isn’t about racial equity. Our mission is about something else. It’s to increase, huh? Education in the sciences or it’s tio promote the art or to do something something else doesn’t Apparently, att leased the surface level have, ah, racial lens on it. So people think, Well, it’s working, invest and to do this right, Tony, you talked about bringing it consultant. The board has got to be prepared to invest money and time. You’ve got to do it on the budgeting process and you’ve got to say, diversity, equity inclusion. This is one of our core values, and we are going to invest as if it is a core values, and that is another barrier it’s going to cost money, it’s going to take time. It’s going to take time out of your board meetings because this is a difficult discussion that you’re not goingto have in fifteen minutes. Uh, it’s going to take time, and it’s going to be probably something that goes on forever. So these aren’t short term solutions that solved a particular initiative. These are ongoing discussions that aboard needs tto have to mean make sure that it continues to promote and observe its core values. And I would say that board members, individually you talked about the board of the whole thing, that this is the rule to have these discussions Well, I’m going to argue that a boardmember individually has a fiduciary duty. If D. IE is a core value of the organization to bring it up, Teo, talk with first, you know, private conversations with individual more members. But make sure that that goes to the full board, because if acting in the best interests of the organization is your fiduciary duty, which it is, and G I is a core, value the organization while doing things that further your mission and are consistent with your core values. That is your legal duty. And while you might not get into any legal liability situation for not observing him, it’s still your legal duty to do it. So I would say it’s really imperative upon individual board members who have identified D. I as in core Valley of their organization to make sure that it gets stated that way. And that discussion goes to the board and that investments are made on decisions are made, which will cost something. So to make investment means you’ve got to take money and time out of something else and put it towards this. It’s now time to start doing that for a great many organizations, take money from something else, or find right, raise more money. Correct. There may be sources of money that, uh, that will support this kind of work. Um, I don’t know, but but it’s again it’s not an either or thank you, that’s that’s excellent the way you explained Gene the individual responsibility, because if yeah, because if we all just looked to the if we all just looked to the collective and the collective never raises it, I mean, the collective is just a the collective just a bunch of people. And so if the collective never acts, then that none of the people are. If none of the people are acting, then the collective will never act. That’s why I’m trying to say it sticks me in the circle. Curious way of getting to things. But so, you know, if if every individual’s waiting for every other one, it’s never gonna happen. Um, okay. Uh, all right. When we come back, I got taking a break. When we come back, let’s talk some about organization, Gene. Tell us can use more money. You need a new revenue source. You get a long stream of passive revenue When cos you refer process their credit card transactions through Tello’s. It’s that simple. You give fifty percent of each individual fee and those things add up. That’s the long stream. Month after month after month. Watch the video. Then send your potential companies to watch the video. You’ll find the video at Tony that m a slash Tony Tello’s Let’s do the live listener love. Um it’s ah goes out wherever you might be from Guten Dog which would be Germany to Ni hao, which would be China two Konnichi wa which would be Korea. Um konnichi wa is what konnichi wa is Japan. I’m sorry on genes on Kenichi while Japan, of course. Because Korea is Anya Haserot. That’s right. Yes. Uh, So the live love goes out and that’s for the listeners abroad. But the live love goes to the domestic listeners. Nonetheless, sometimes I do abroad first. Sometimes I do domestic first. So this time I’m doing their broad first But the domestic listeners throughout their fifty states because it’s not only the continental United States we’ll bring in Alaska and Hawaii also, of course, the live love goes out there. So wherever you are listening, live love out to you and the podcast pleasantries, too are vast podcast audience. I’m grateful that you are with us been subscribing the numbers keep rising pleasantries to our pod cast audience. Okay, Jeanne, Um so organization. What? What does that look like? When people of color, uh, or other, uh, other classes are brought in as tokens. What? What does that look like? What that looks like Tony is it’s awful. Well, let’s use the person of color a CZ example. You have, ah, vast majority of the the current board composition being white, and that board decides what we need. Toe add a person of color onto our board. Um, so they bring in one person of color, maybe an African American individual. They bring them on the board, and then they take the picture that we talked about at the beginning of this show. It makes for a better picture than it wass before. Um, but that individual boardmember is really not given any additional power or duties. They’re not asked for their different perspectives that they bring onto the board. There’s no plan to incorporate that person’s background in knowledge to influence what mate be done with the organization’s planning efforts or its future board governance structures. So that person is just brought in there for the good looking photo that shows a more diverse board than it wass on DH by excluding such person from from riel positions of influence and power. Yeah, that’s really just making them a token. And that’s what we’re talking. There’s the key. Yeah, they have. No, they have no power in the organization. There’s no plan for rewarding sharing the power. Um, yeah, the power center isn’t changing. And if it’s one person that that’s probably that to me, that would be a red flag has to be a pretty small board for one person, too, to make a difference and to be incorporated into power structures adequately, Um, and you know the kind of something you know, sometimes you’ll see the diversity committee, right? And so the so the people of color, the lgbtq, you folks, whatever three older folks they’re put on the diversity committee, and that’s it. She really just be called the Divers committee. We have a committee that’s diverse, That’s it. That’s what they do. That’s their structure. That’s their charge to be diverse. Okay, we have a diverse committee, you know, Um, you know, it’s it’s it’s insulting on its It’s also counterproductive because people know when they’re tokens when when they’re not given the levers of power or access to them. People know that, you know, they feel it, and it’s just going toe. It’s gonna create resentment and animosity. It’s It’s counterproductive to have ah, a diverse committee. I agree. Chun hee. So in there, lots of stories where persons of color who get invited onto boards find themselves being the only, UH, person of color on that board and being appointed to a diversity committee. Um, and that gets to be a routine. They join other boards with similar sort of bored compositions, and again, they’re asked to be part of a diversity committee. And, well, if that diversity committees actually given enough power and influence to effect change so that diversity, in an inclusive way is really strengthened in the organization and its governance. Well, that’s one thing. But if that diversity committee, year after year, is just for the photo op, uh, and just for the Grant proposal that says we have one, well, that’s really classic token ization. And and that’s something that is counterproductive in the incredibly you’d be better off not having that individual joined the board. That will be a terrible board experience for that person as well. Let’s talk about how this is a e-giving deviating from what I was thinking, but it is important. How do you share the levers of power? A. CZ. So if the leadership is, is all white what? What do they do? What do they need to do? Latto give real power, too. The their newly new people of color, etcetera. They’re newly diverse board members. What does that look like? Sharing the levers of power. What? You know, I need you to talk a little bit so I can think about it cause I just thought of it myself. How do you do that? How do you start to share power? Great question. And that would be kind of one of those generative questions that board should have. Ah, long discussion about once identified D. E A. Is something they want to prioritise and adopted the core values, and I think they’re a few ways to do it. The first way is to decide well, the first thing to do is recognize every boardmember actually has no interference. Individual power. Every boardmember individually has no power unless it’s delegated to them individually. While they have no power. Collectively, as the board, they’re the ultimate power of the board of the organization. So collectively they have power individually, they have no power. So bringing on one person, colored just to be an individual boardmember not delegating any authority to that individual is classic. Token is but you have officers. So you have a chairman of the board. You may have a vice chair, you may have a CEO. You may have a development director, some of these air staff positions in all volunteer organizations that may all be volunteer positions. And there may be mixes, obviously, but their officers who do have individual authority and that where you have to think about is, is our diversity in an inclusive manner being affected through our officer positions there. Maybe committee positions that have power as well. Where they’re delegated with the authority to do things on behalf of the board and executive committee would be, you know, a typical committee that’s often asked to sort of take over Mohr of the day to day oversight. Then the full board would be and is a person of color, or whatever marginalized group that you’re trying to increase. The first report is that person, or are those people representative on those committees that have important power? And then, beyond that, maybe the other way to think about it is influence. So while I said each individual boardmember has no power different board members have considerable influence. And if you have a board meeting that’s, you know two hours long if you’ve got a board of, like, fifteen people, there’s only so much that each person Khun say and allow everybody to participate right, And that’s often controlled by the chair of the board, sometimes by the executives who run the board meetings, which isn’t always a great way to do it. But somebody is facilitating and latto presiding over the board and the board meetings. And to do that in a way that recognizes that persons from marginalized groups the person that you asked to be on the board, to represent some of those ideas and perspectives and thoughts, well, that might be unfair to say, you know, you’re brought on to represent every person who’s you know in that group. Yeah, that’s on. So just yeah, just to bring those people just to get at least their individual perspectives coming from that background or characterization, that can be important. But if the board members just don’t acknowledge that, you know, and just give them five minutes to speak at a you know to our board meeting because everybody else needs there five minutes. That’s not going to do much to effect change, either, You know, So so. But promotion, um, get mentoring access to the leadership Onda leadership that that hears them. I’d also welcoming challenges to the leadership, you know, not mutiny. But there’s a lot between silence and mutiny. There’s a broad spectrum there, and so welcoming challenges to the authority and even even in public. If you know if something comes up in public and it seems wrong that the challenge to that shouldn’t be defensiveness, marginalization and rebuking, it should be acknowledgment. I’m trying to listen and learn. You know? What is that? What’s the What’s the What’s the source of the conflict that’s been pointed out? Mean those air? Those are things that that I was thinking of. Two as a cz ways of sharing power and e-giving e-giving voice. I got to take our last break. Gene Hoexter give. Can you use more money? Need a new revenue source? Here’s a second way mobile giving. You can learn about it with text to gives five part email mini course. Fiv e mails won the day and you will know no more about text e-giving mobile giving than you did six days earlier. I did it, and I learned it’s easy to get started. It’s cheaper. It’s easy for your donors. It’s cheap for you to get started. There’s just a couple of lessons that come out of this many course to get the email many course Text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine nine. And thankfully, we’ve got several more minutes, but probably not enough, uh, for D I and governance. Anything else you want to add? Jean, too. I threw something out that I took a break, because that was that was that unfair exercise of power? I’m sorry, E. I got it. I got to take care of the sponsors. I didn’t mean to do it that way. So anything you want, toe, respond to what I just said. I’m going to echo actually what you said because avoiding conflict going for consensus based decision making on boards, I think is really, um, enhances the white supremacy culture or a majority or power privileged supremacy culture. So I think embracing some sort of conflict is important. Having a long term focus and not just a short return focus is really important not to looking to just better perfect the status quo when you recognize that the status quo was largely designed by one group for their own benefit is also another important factor. Now I’ll just leave you with a few. Resource is so bored. Source has got some excellent subject matters, particularly those written by Veneta Walker, who used to be their vice president and now engaged in consulting. And I’m going to have a chance to talk with Brunetta about four diversity on a webinar coming up in March. So just plug that a little bit and say, look for her readings because she’s a really leader in this space and you can learn a lot. Okay? And now you’re going to be on this Webinar in March, which I’m sure you’re going to promote at the non-profit. Law blogged dot com, right? Absolutely. Okay, so people need to be subscribing to that. You’ve heard my admonition hundreds of times, subscribed to non-profit law blob dot com and you’ll you’ll find out info about Jean and on the Web in our with Veneta, we still have some time left. Jean What? What do you want to talk about? Well, I’m going to say a few more things than what one is that I was going to mention Edgar Villanueva’s Well, because his book, It’s remarkable de colonizing wealth, and I really appreciated your show with that girl. That was such an interesting show. He’s excellent. He’s excellent. Yeah, the next thing is, maybe once you figured out what you want to do in terms of Why are you bringing diversity on? And how is it going to help your organization pursue or an advance its mission in a better way. That’s the time to start to now, reach out to communities of color on DH. You’re gonna have to go through different ways because the traditional way of bringing in boards for most non-profits that have self perpetuating board, we just ask our friends or we asked our contacts and very much, you know, and I think there’s an evolutionary biology principle of affiliating with, you know, people who are of our similar characteristics, all to do with the selfish gene and and all of that and so that that’s our comfort zone. That’s what we may be predisposed to because it had sametz solutionary advantage in the past just sort of congregate with one another that we’re very much alike. But we’ve got a break out of that. And if you want diversity, you got to reach out and go beyond that. Acknowledge that you may have those those predispositions, but you’ve got to reach out. Consider Boardmember Ching Services, identity based professional affinity groups, colleges, community leaders reach out and be uncomfortable. As you said, Tony, be uncomfortable, get to know new people and get your organization to know new people and new groups and figure out how to do it right. If you’re really open and honest about it, these people are going to want to help us. Well, yeah. Go into the communities that you are under represented by that you’re under representing, uh, set up some meetings. Um, you know, maybe it’s Maybe it’s among your benefit community, The people you’re helping talk to them or uh, but as you said, Gene, you know, goingto community’s going to networks that you haven’t been in. People take a meeting, they’ll take a meeting. And if your genuine and sincere they’re going to hear that, they’re going to hear that and they’re going, They’re going to want to help you. All right, Gene hears. I don’t know if we covered this adequately again. My goal was just to get people consciousness raised and get them thinking about and talking about these things. But I want I want each of us to listen back to this, and you and I’ll decide together whether we should say some more on this or we feel like we’ve we’ve done enough. Not that now that we’ve covered the whole topic. But have we, uh, Have we met the goal? Okay, but then you know what? I set the goal. So I’m open to a different goal to see, see that white powers creeping in and set the goal. And then I’m saying that we’re going to judge it by the goal that I said, So it’s bad. So you and I will collaborate together, and we’ll decide if we’re going together. If we’re going to do this topic some more sound good. I love to do with you and love to actually talk about how you can implement some of these ideas in by-laws and governing documents from illegal angle. There’s your record to it. Okay, It’s up to you if it’s upto us together, if we want to do some more. All right. So he’s Jean Takagi non-profit law block dot com. You got to subscribe to that and follow him. He’s at G tak Gene. Thank you so much for real. Genuine and could have been even tougher. But but it wasn’t as tough as it could have been. So I thank you for that conversation. Thanks so much. Really Appreciate it. Tony. Have a great day. Thanks, Gene, next week. I don’t know if you missed any part of today’s show. I beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash Pursuing Capital P by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card payment processing your passive revenue stream, Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers Claire Meyerhoff. Family Blitzes. 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