Tag Archives: NEO Law Group

Nonprofit Radio for October 4, 2021: Risk Management I

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: Risk Management I

Gene Takagi

You want to keep your nonprofit safe. To help you, Gene Takagi starts a 2-part mini-series on risk management. We kick off with indemnification. It sounds boring. But it’s a word with great significance for your board members, officers, employees; your contracts; even your sexual harassment policy. Gene is our legal contributor and the principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

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Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.

 

We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Nonprofit Radio for July 19, 2021: 550th Show!

My Guests:

Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Gene Takagi & Amy Sample Ward: 550th Show!

It’s Nonprofit Radio’s 11th Anniversary and 550th show! To celebrate, we’ve got the whole gang together. Claire Meyerhoff, our creative producer, co-hosts. We have live music from Scott Stein, composer of our theme music, Cheap Red Wine. Our esteemed contributors are with us: Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward. Join us!

 

 

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Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.

 

Sendinblue: The only all-in-one digital marketing platform empowering nonprofits to grow.

 

We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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Transcript for 550_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20210719.mp3

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[00:00:04.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:12.98] spk_1:
radio big non profit ideas

[00:00:15.56] spk_0:
for the other

[00:00:16.99] spk_1:
95

[00:00:17.62] spk_0:
percent. I’m your

[00:00:19.06] spk_1:
aptly named host

[00:00:20.37] spk_2:
of your

[00:00:20.88] spk_1:
favorite abdominal

[00:00:22.04] spk_0:
podcast,

[00:00:23.42] spk_2:
it’s

[00:00:49.34] spk_1:
R 550th show, you hear the live music, It’s our 11th anniversary welcome, welcome to the anniversary show, we’ve got live music and much more of that to come. We got lots of guests and the guests begin with my co host, Claire Meyerhoff, she’s our creative producer and principal of the plan to giving agency PG agency dot com. Claire, Welcome to the 11th anniversary 550th show,

[00:01:09.94] spk_2:
Tony I cannot believe that this is the 550th show because when I first spoke to you about this show, when we sat across from each other at a restaurant and cary north Carolina, I said to you, you want to do a radio show, are you crazy? Do you know how much work it is And you were like yes, I want to do this radio show And here we are, 550 shows later. It’s quite an accomplishment. Congratulations, Tony

[00:01:16.01] spk_1:
Thank you very much, Claire. Yes, we started in july of 2010. So you and I would have been having that lunch in cary north Carolina, probably

[00:01:25.58] spk_2:
25 years old,

[00:01:27.74] spk_1:
June of 2010. There was we

[00:01:35.74] spk_2:
Were like 26, years old then, you know, we were so young Now We’re pushing 40.

[00:01:39.94] spk_1:
No, we didn’t. Claire has always been a dreamer.

[00:01:41.38] spk_2:
I love them, I’m a dreamer.

[00:01:43.14] spk_1:
Uh we didn’t know what we were doing but I knew I wanted to do it. And you’ve been the creative creative juice since the beginning.

[00:02:16.54] spk_2:
I have been every once in a while. tony will hit me up, he’ll go Clara and I need some new something, something for this. You got something like yeah, I’ll read you something. There we go. That’s my job as creative creative producer. Was mostly at the beginning to be the creative producer. And what I said to Tony at the time was I said you know what I would really just like a credit on the show that way if it becomes really successful. My name is always like in this show and that’s really what I wanted. And over the years I’ve been working with clients and they go for you know I was on this thing and they said your name.

[00:02:19.54] spk_1:
I kept my word every every show, your credit to

[00:02:23.19] spk_2:
this creative producer, Clair Meyerhoff. Yeah. Doug White said that when he was a guest he was like I was on the tony-martignetti show and then at the end they said that you were you were a producer and I was like yes I

[00:02:33.15] spk_1:
am glad that

[00:02:34.33] spk_2:
beautiful with that beautiful

[00:02:35.38] spk_1:
bass voice that he has.

[00:02:36.67] spk_2:
Oh I know he should sell it

[00:02:42.54] spk_1:
Russia, It’s like honey, it’s like a sweet honey. It’s wonderful. So what’s going on with you and the PG agency?

[00:03:27.44] spk_2:
The agency, the plan giving agency. Well, you know, I’m a creative person as my title suggests on tony-martignetti non profit radio And so I am in the creative space of philanthropy and I kind of specialized in planned giving, which tony um is a very great expert on and so I help non profits make the most out of their burgeoning plan giving programs. And a lot of times it’s just they have nothing. And I come in and I create sort of a nice back end for them and help them talk to them a little bit about talking to their donors about making a gift of a lifetime, like leaving their favorite charity and their estate plans or is the beneficiary of a retirement plan and you know, all those wonderful things in the wonderful world of plan giving.

[00:03:43.84] spk_1:
Cool. Yes, I do know a couple things about it a lot and uh, welcome the creative energy that, that

[00:04:08.14] spk_2:
you bring. Not only I, but I learned a lot from you tony that’s how we first met, because I was writing an article for something and I, you were my expert and then I said, you know, I have to write this stuff and sometimes I don’t understand. And you said, well, you can reach out to me if you have a question about something. And I did, I’d say, well, what’s this or what’s that? And you’d explain it really well. And I still remember a lot of the things that you told me at the very beginning and I use those in my, in my practice today, such as, you know, spending a lot of time trying to reach and engage younger donors and tony was like, don’t you want the money sooner.

[00:04:17.47] spk_1:
I remember you were writing that article, I remember who you were writing it for two. Yes,

[00:04:22.27] spk_2:
yes, yes.

[00:04:34.44] spk_1:
That, that brought us together. Yes. And then I knew you had a background in radio. And so I I saw your, I saw your wisdom about starting a radio show. That’s, that’s the podcast of

[00:04:52.84] spk_2:
course. Exactly, Exactly. And so you built it out really as a radio show and it’s, it’s cool that way because a lot of times podcasts are kind of like podcasting, but if you do more, if you treat it more like a radio show, it’s a lot more robust and that’s what yours is. You have this very robust quote podcast that’s really more like a traditional radio show with a lot of elements that breaks and things like that. And so it’s really a radio show rather than a podcast to me

[00:05:02.14] spk_1:
and no, no, no surprise at that because Claire Meyerhoff was creative producer. So you, you coached me along and I had some nodules to copy like I was like the car talk guys and uh, but yeah, you were instrumental and help me put some of those elements in and thinking about it as

[00:05:17.06] spk_2:
radio but you did the work. A lot of work.

[00:05:34.24] spk_1:
Oh, thank you. Let’s bring scott stein in scott, Stein, Brooklyn new york composer, composer of our theme song, which we’re gonna hear in full, of course, Brooklyn new york based pianist, songwriter, arranger, conductor and music director. Scott stein music dot com scott. Welcome to the show.

[00:05:38.24] spk_4:
Thank you. Great to see you again, Tony and Claire. That’s uh we feel like we’re getting the band back together after every 50 shows, we get to do this. It’s the reunion

[00:05:47.55] spk_2:
tour where the snow happening

[00:06:00.44] spk_1:
were the snacks. Where’s the craft services? Yeah, no, absolutely scott. I love your, I still love the song, cheap red wine. Uh, it opens and closes every single show. I’m so glad that mutual lawyer friend of ours jo Becker brought us together.

[00:06:08.44] spk_4:
Yeah. My old roommate, back from, back from both of our bachelor days. Ohio

[00:06:11.79] spk_1:
Ohio Ohio State was it?

[00:06:19.34] spk_4:
Uh, I went to Ohio State. He was one of my roommates here in new york. Ah, okay. So

[00:06:21.64] spk_1:
because you’re originally an Ohio

[00:06:22.84] spk_4:
guy, right? I am. I’m originally from Akron Ohio and a graduate of the Ohio State University. Good bucks.

[00:06:30.64] spk_2:
I did not know that all those years. You’re from Akron. It’s near Toledo, right. Akron

[00:06:47.84] spk_4:
actually opposite part of the state. So yeah, well Toledo’s northwestern Ohio’s north. Excuse me. Akron is northeast is close to Cleveland. Oh, okay. You know, it’s okay. Most people mix up Akron and Dayton.

[00:06:52.04] spk_2:
Yes. Well Jaden’s in the south more towards like Louisville.

[00:06:55.21] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s called Cincinnati. The south,

[00:06:58.24] spk_2:
right, Cincinnati

[00:07:00.07] spk_1:
and scott. You just moved? You just did an intra Brooklyn

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
move? I did. I just up the block same street about maybe four blocks north. Uh, yeah, so we moved in on friday. So it’s, it is a wonder that there are not more boxes on either side of me right now. There are some there just out of there, just out of picture right now. So

[00:07:23.82] spk_1:
is non profit radio your first gig since in the new apartment.

[00:07:47.14] spk_4:
Uh, well I guess it’s the first gig in the apartment. I had a gig just outside of the apartment yesterday and another one the day before that. So actually I moved at a rather busy work time, which was a little bit of a balancing act. All right, but we’re with you and then I’m going to be hitting the studio on Tuesday, starting in a new record. Our first session is Tuesday, so because that wasn’t busy enough, I thought I would squeeze in a problem into that because planning is something I am clearly very good at.

[00:08:02.84] spk_2:
Right? And then, and then you took on that catering job and that was really just the end of it all,

[00:08:08.01] spk_4:
you know?

[00:08:10.64] spk_0:
Uh,

[00:08:11.83] spk_4:
that’s, you know,

[00:08:12.79] spk_1:
he’s been doing some political consulting to. Right. Right. So we’re your inaugural gig in your new apartment. That’s what I, I like. I like being inaugural for anything. I find something

[00:08:40.14] spk_4:
inaugural. Yeah. Do I have because I’m not teaching over the summer, which is something I was doing over zoom the whole year um, and uh, and even ransom choir rehearsals over zoom when we’re during the pandemic before we could meet up in person and uh, so, but that’s been off for the last few weeks, last month or so, so yes, so this is the first zoom session in the new apartments.

[00:08:47.88] spk_1:
Outstanding. Very, a milestone to milestone. You’ll always treasure

[00:08:51.54] spk_4:
naturally. Indeed,

[00:08:52.81] spk_1:
it’s good. It’s really good to have you back with the uh, on the anniversary show, on the

[00:09:04.14] spk_4:
11th anniversary. Always, always happy to reconnect and like as they get the band back together. So great! All right,

[00:09:07.94] spk_1:
Claire

[00:09:14.24] spk_2:
tony I have something very important I want to talk about, We’re going to have the very first Tony awards.

[00:09:18.31] spk_0:
Now

[00:10:14.44] spk_2:
you might be thinking listeners that the Tony awards are all about broadway, but they’re not. They’re about guests from tony-martignetti non profit radio Those are the real Tony awards and today we’re going to pepper them throughout our show. So I’d like to give out the very first tony award and you know, an award requires an actual award. And I thought I’d let you guys choose. So should the award be a troll? Blue haired troll? All right. A fossil from Hack alito’s canyon in Coalinga California. These are fossil. Um sand dollars. Mhm. A nun. My friend Marianne gave me because we have a joke about nuns who run and this is a nun who runs or one of my mother’s antique little things that I saw and I thought, well that looks like an award. So what should we cheers guys troll fossil. None falls. That looks like an

[00:10:18.89] spk_4:
award. Well, when you mentioned none to broadway shows came to mind when with the sound of music and the other was sister act. So that gets my vote.

[00:11:24.14] spk_2:
All right, that’s going to be the award and not that everybody’s going to see it, but we’re not going to keep talking about. It’s a little it’s a little new guys will see it. We’ll just say it’s a little nun doll. It’s a little none. It runs you go like that. It runs across the counter. It’s like my little thing and Marianne, we joke about it a lot. Okay, so for the very first Tony award given out the award for very first guest goes to Yes, we’ll just do a little music under music. Music, Music, Music, dramatic, dramatic, tony Award. Music. Hi. And the award for very first guest goes to Steve Imparato Steve. Here’s your reward. Steve’s not here. I’ll accept in his in his accidents. So he was the very first guest on Tony-Martignetti non profit radio on July 23, 2010. So Tony how do you recall steve’s appearance on the show?

[00:11:40.94] spk_1:
Uh Well it was at that time it was the tony-martignetti show. Uh It was actually, I I hesitate to correct my esteemed creative producer. It was July 16. You’re you’re confused,

[00:11:42.12] spk_2:
You gave your 7 23. Okay, never mind

[00:11:45.97] spk_1:
You were July 23, I just

[00:11:48.45] spk_2:
Saw this date. Okay, okay, July 2013

[00:12:02.64] spk_1:
By Claire Meyerhoff came on the show on July 23 a week later, after Steve the show was changed, it was no longer the tony-martignetti show because you claire explained to me that nobody knows what the hell tony-martignetti show

[00:12:06.74] spk_2:
is right, is about is it about cooking, Is it about trolls? Like what is it about? So I thought I said to him tony you just have to have the word non profit in there somewhere. Just shove the word non profit into your, into your title,

[00:12:38.54] spk_1:
has to have it shoved in tony-martignetti and nonprofit radio And so by the second week of of the show which was now newly named so you were on July 23, 2016 you were on the first tony-martignetti non profit radio Claremore off talking about uh storytelling

[00:12:57.24] spk_2:
Amazing. So that was 10, 11, almost 11 years, 11, it is 11 years ago, it is 11, well on the 23rd it’ll be 11 years. I expect a nice gift. I want a Bugatti and a villa on lake como. Thank you. I will take nothing less.

[00:12:59.22] spk_1:
Very italian themed. Okay, well we’ll give you is a nun, we have a doll. None for you

[00:13:04.10] spk_2:
know I already have that for mary.

[00:13:06.01] spk_1:
We won’t take yours away. How about that?

[00:13:09.19] spk_2:
Okay, I’ll get another one. She’ll have a little friend. I’ll give it to Marion.

[00:13:13.24] spk_1:
But that was the very first show and you were on the very second show.

[00:13:26.64] spk_2:
I was all right. So we have another award to give out scott a little music for atmosphere. Thank you. And the second Tony award goes to the Tony award for longest distance guest. That’s the guest who phoned in from the furthest away it is. Let’s open the envelope. Matt Barnett from Sydney Australia on november 30th 2020 matt, here’s your award tony Tell us about matt

[00:13:56.14] spk_1:
matt Barnett is the papa bear. He calls himself papa bear of his company, which is Bond Euro and they do personalized videos. So he’s the ceo of bonds Euro, but his title is papa bear. And uh yeah, he zoomed with me from Sydney Australia as you said,

[00:14:05.14] spk_2:
That’s fabulous with a big time difference as well. So he had to accommodate that.

[00:14:20.34] spk_1:
Uh, we, we both, yeah, I think I was up a little early and he was up a little late. Uh, one of the other, I think I was like nine o’clock and maybe he was seven or eight in the morning the next day. Something like that. Some, something like that.

[00:14:29.64] spk_2:
Yeah, wow, that’s, that’s awesome. All right. We have, we have another Tony award and it is for the guest who came closest to having a heart attack in the studio. And that award goes to Dennis Miller, tony Tell us about Dennis

[00:15:06.34] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis ran a long way from, from, I think the nearest spot that a cab could drop him off. This was the very first studio on West 72nd Street and he was stuck in us. Uh he was stuck in traffic and he uh it wasn’t, I’m pretty sure it was not the subway, he was stuck in traffic, he told the cabbie he would just bail out and uh he hooked it a couple of blocks and

[00:15:09.22] spk_2:
uh

[00:15:13.14] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis is not spelt, so he was, he was a little red, he was a little red cheeked and heavy breathing and then you had to come up the stairs, one story.

[00:15:20.34] spk_2:
I remember

[00:15:27.44] spk_1:
one flight of stairs to add a little more exercise to his couple block run. Um so I we did the best SAm and I remember SAm the

[00:15:31.48] spk_2:
producer. Yes, I know SAm. Well,

[00:15:37.24] spk_1:
uh we did the best to calm him down and uh I did a little improv and then we brought him in and he was fine. Dennis was fine and he was brilliant.

[00:15:41.79] spk_2:
And so who is Dennis Miller? What does he do? And why was he a nonprofit radio

[00:15:45.68] spk_1:
Dennis Miller is a frequent writer about board’s approval board, very important, a strategic planning with your board retreat,

[00:15:56.04] spk_2:
yep,

[00:15:56.74] spk_1:
we were talking about, we have been talking about the board and fundraising, but

[00:16:01.94] spk_2:
it was right, Yes, that’s that’s that’s enough to give you a heart attack right there, trying to get your board to do some fundraising. Very

[00:16:11.64] spk_1:
good claire, that’s Dennis Miller,

[00:16:28.94] spk_2:
that’s Dennis Miller. Okay. And we have a we have a final in this little segment, this is the final tony award for, for this, this little segment of our show and it goes to the Tony Award, goes to the weirdest guest and the weirdest guest is Sandor Katz, tony I’ll let you explain our weirdest guests, Sand or cats and the lessons you’ve learned.

[00:17:18.34] spk_1:
Yes, you learned a lesson. I should have consulted you first or you know, maybe I did and you advised me against it and I, uh stupidly you can’t be ignored your advice. I don’t remember what sequence it was, but it was my, it was my original idea. I’m not, I’m not putting that on you. I thought, well it’s a podcast for nonprofit folks, but maybe, you know, folks and nonprofits have multidimensional lives, so maybe I can capture some of the, some of that breath in, in the non profit radio podcast. And I invited someone to come on and talk about fermentation implementation. Uh, yeah, as you said, his name was Sandor Katz, but he, he called himself Sander crowd because sauerkraut is a

[00:17:20.84] spk_2:
popular, uh, that’s true, it is,

[00:17:23.92] spk_1:
This was August 2nd of 2013,

[00:18:00.44] spk_2:
so three years in, you decided let’s let’s shake it up a little bit. Let’s have some fermenting topics now. I remember that because I think you had a wine person on one time, like you’ve done a couple of them where you thought, well let’s do like some other stuff. And I said, well tony it’s, it’s better to just stick like stay with the message. Like stay with what the show is about like on car talk. They don’t like have a nonprofit segment on car talk. They talk about cars unless it’s like something about like, you know, cars with nonprofits. Like if like if Sandor Katz had run like the, you know, the fermentation 501 C3, right? The nonprofit groups supporting um fermentation?

[00:18:05.34] spk_1:
Yes, that would have been ideal. That would have been that he had no connection to night connection to non profit He was the furthest thing I could find from nonprofits and

[00:18:13.33] spk_2:
he talked a long time and tony just we’re both in the studio and I’m like, I’m giving tony like the stink eye and I’m like, yeah, tony that’s what that’s all about. He’s like, this guy is talking about the pickles and

[00:18:50.54] spk_1:
chocolate, coffee, sauerkraut wine, all these champagne versus wine. So yeah, I learned a lesson. I learned a lot and uh claire you were spot on podcasts are about narrow and deep, you take your narrow niche and you run deep in it and you don’t try to bring in fermentation or uh, or uh wine enthusiasm or anything else. So at

[00:19:08.04] spk_2:
least it was like a really like weird one that we can still talk about years later. It’s, it’s not like the tipping point with something about like a guy who does custom framing or something like that wouldn’t be that funny, but like this guy was all about the fermenting and now we can we can joke about that. But but yes, he got the Tony awards, so we’ll have to send that to him and maybe he will send us a lifetime supply of sauerkraut.

[00:19:14.64] spk_1:
All

[00:19:19.24] spk_2:
right, we’re moving on.

[00:19:37.84] spk_1:
We have someone who just joined us. We will get to your song into the 2nd Scott in a few minutes. Let’s bring in, let’s bring in as soon as he piers. This is Stefan, Stefan. Szabo. Best to Stefan welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:19:44.14] spk_3:
Hey, nice to meet you. Happy to be here.

[00:19:47.94] spk_1:
Thank you. Did I say your name right? I wanna make sure is it sure best to?

[00:19:51.84] spk_3:
Oh perfect, very nice.

[00:19:53.98] spk_1:
It’s

[00:19:54.91] spk_2:
just the way it looks. It’s a beautiful name, Stefan Sebesta.

[00:19:58.84] spk_3:
Thanks

[00:20:00.05] spk_1:
Stephanie is Ceo of one of our sponsors, our newest sponsor, Send In Blue, which is a digital marketing platform, Stefan thanks so much for joining us.

[00:20:11.04] spk_3:
Thanks and congrats on your 550th show your 11 year anniversary.

[00:20:26.44] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m glad you could be with us. Thank you. Um so tell us a little about sending Blue. Want to give you a couple of minutes to uh talk about this digital marketing platform and how sending Blue helps nonprofits.

[00:21:34.64] spk_3:
Sure, happy to do so, so sad. And blue, you know, as we were founded in in 2012, we really have this vision of helping small and medium businesses and many nonprofits are fall into this category to help these kind of business is to be on equal footing with the big players, the amazons of this world and to empower them and enable them to do similar marketing, online marketing activities. So we started with email marketing and then added more and more channels over time. And our really, our our vision is to provide a very easy to use, very affordable tool to small and medium businesses to grow there, to grow their revenue to for nonprofits, you know, um fundraising is very important. So we give a lot of tools that you can use apart from email marketing, you can have a landing page generator facebook as the chat chat about that you can put on your website, Syria. Um, and so we’ve added more and more functionality and it’s, you know, that’s really what what’s in blue stands for.

[00:21:43.44] spk_1:
So like full spectrum enterprise level digital marketing,

[00:21:44.79] spk_3:
but enterprise

[00:21:46.35] spk_1:
enterprise, but enterprise, like enterprise quality

[00:22:12.54] spk_3:
for non profits At at at a price that’s really affordable for for for small businesses. And that’s easy to use where you don’t need to have maybe an 80 team or a dedicated marketing manager. You can, everything is very visual. You can use our drag and drop editor, create planning pages or emails and it’s it’s really easy to to set up campaigns and become successful. And like I said, be on equal footing with these bigger players that have much higher budgets, of course.

[00:22:34.44] spk_1:
Cool. Right. So you get that quality without the enterprise level pricing, That’s exactly right, awesome. So distinguish between some sending blue and some of the bigger names that may or may not be, you know, appropriate, like, you know, constant contact and mail chimp what we’re sending blue, what is sending blue do that? These guys don’t

[00:23:50.64] spk_3:
phenomena. So one thing I mentioned is really, it’s a very comprehensive tool, right? We offer all these different channels that you can combine and make your online marketing extremely powerful With that. Apart from that we, You know, we offer very affordable product. We have very good customer service basically 24/7 and six different languages. So that’s something that nobody, nobody else offers in our industry either. And overall, you know, it’s a lot of features and maybe there are different um preferences for for each customer. But We really targeted white audience. We have over 300,000 paying customers worldwide. Originally the European company and you know, for for one person may be the functionality is more important for the other one that’s a customer service for another one. Maybe it might be the data privacy regulations that we have to follow european, G D P R C C A and so on. So we’re really, really focused on that as well. Um and for for others who might just be, you know, the ease of, of, of using the product. So um it’s different for for each customer basically.

[00:24:26.94] spk_1:
Cool. Alright. Easy to use price for nonprofits. Um and non profit radio listeners get a free month. Yes. And in blue uh free straight out exactly. You go to the listener landing page at send in blue aptly named. That’s easy to remember. Yeah, Stefan. Thanks so much. Real pleasure. And and and thank you. Thank you. And thanks to the team. It’s sending blue for your, your sponsorship of nonprofit radio Thank you so much.

[00:24:35.94] spk_3:
No problem. Thanks.

[00:24:40.11] spk_1:
Thanks so

[00:24:40.78] spk_3:
much.

[00:24:45.04] spk_1:
That’s fine. You got a song for us?

[00:24:48.54] spk_4:
I do. It’s about fermentation

[00:24:50.94] spk_2:
awesome.

[00:24:54.34] spk_4:
That may or may not be true.

[00:24:56.94] spk_1:
All right, you got for

[00:26:08.94] spk_4:
us. I’m gonna play this song off the new record that we’re gonna be doing uh starting tomorrow. Um uh the song is called on my way and it’s about a trip that I took to New Orleans and um I everywhere I went although I you could still kind of see um like remnants of what happened during hurricane Katrina if you look closely enough. And and I had I had been there initially a couple of years after Katrina and hadn’t gone back since uh this this trip was about two years ago and and I was just on one hand I was just taking it in because I love New Orleans, I love just hanging out there. Obviously it’s a great music city. Um But you you kind of scratch under the service and you can see you know some of the scars of what happened. And I thought that was just a really interesting um dichotomy there. So that’s that’s a little bit of what informed this song. So this is this is called on my way. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:29:28.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m on my way. I could still find my way out of the ordinary back into the frame. But it takes some of that comfort and it cast it aside, slip out of the jacket. It’s the ball of the way outside. The wind is at my back to push me through the sorrow way through the storm And the swell as for the destination. It’s too early to tell there in a while in the solace. Ain’t no river a trust ain’t no poetry to this life baby. We only do what we must and I cannot step the time. I can only stand in wonder and I grab a hold of the ball Bowlby older I breathe different and I got a swagger in my stride. I’m walking through the war. There’s the mighty river at my side but new Orleans bears the scars now and it’s shaping in its storm, which is the threat of rain, reminds her of the memories of the storm. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Take all that I am. Take all that I was Yeah. Try to pull myself together the right kind of bus. Take all of my love, take all of my sins. Ain’t no use trying to polish up the mess that I’ve been. But I will be better. I will be better better than before. Uh huh. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Who scott stone?

[00:29:32.44] spk_1:
Thanks scott stein. Wonderful,

[00:29:33.58] spk_2:
thank you, lovely, thank

[00:29:35.34] spk_1:
you. Excellent. And that’s going to be on the new album. Do you know the name of the new album

[00:29:39.37] spk_4:
scott? I don’t just yet, I’ve got some ideas I’m kicking around but it’s uh we’re pretty early in the process right now.

[00:29:50.74] spk_1:
You’re starting recording tomorrow. Indeed, I didn’t know creative process runs.

[00:30:12.04] spk_4:
It depends sometimes, like I’ve got an idea, you know, coming out of the gate. Uh, sometimes I have one, I don’t want to share it right away. Sometimes one record the woman with cheap red wine. I think I came up with the title of that record jukebox. Uh, we were mastering the record, we were all done and I still didn’t have a title. And uh, so it happens when it happens.

[00:30:16.94] spk_1:
Okay, okay, mastering. That’s one of those insider terms. I love

[00:30:19.13] spk_4:
that. That’s the last, it’s the last step of the last thing you do and then it’s done. You

[00:30:30.34] spk_1:
know the lingo, you’re an insider musical insider. I know. All right, Claire.

[00:30:32.54] spk_2:
I think we have more Tony awards to give out. So do we.

[00:30:37.44] spk_0:
I think we do.

[00:31:11.74] spk_2:
I would like to present the Tony Award for 2021 to most newsworthy guests on the Tony-Martignetti nonprofit radio show and the Tony award for most news where the guest goes to Barbara Newhouse, the ceo of A. L. S. The A. L. S Association and the ice bucket challenge competition that was so well known and successful back in the day. And tony nabbed that high profile guest. Yes, yes,

[00:31:51.84] spk_1:
Indeed. That was that was October of 2014, 3, 2014. May recall, uh, if you were working around nonprofits then the, the ice bucket challenge. It was the summer of 2014 and it pretty much wrapped up by labor day of 2014. So early October I got Barbara Newhouse on the show and actually recorded that in the Chronicle of philanthropy office in Washington, D. C. That was a collaboration between non profit radio and the Chronicle of philanthropy. They promoted it and I did too. And I did the interview with Barbara Newhouse.

[00:32:12.74] spk_2:
Really, that’s wonderful. And now I have another award to give out and it’s for Tony’s favorite guests. So the Tony award for favorite guest goes to and it’s a tie Tony’s favorite guests receiving the Tony award are Amy sample Ward and jean to the hockey. I can never say his name. Right. I’m a terrible

[00:32:19.64] spk_0:
host. Yeah, I couldn’t pick just one of

[00:32:20.79] spk_1:
you. Welcome. Welcome. Hey, you are my favorite. Together. You are my favorite. Get

[00:32:26.03] spk_2:
your tony award

[00:32:28.04] spk_0:
or

[00:32:30.31] spk_2:
are you going to Patrol?

[00:32:32.14] spk_5:
I am very happy to share with jean.

[00:32:35.54] spk_7:
Me too, Amy, thank you for the Auto

[00:32:49.44] spk_1:
tony include Absolutely, absolutely. Together. My favorite guest, Uh, Jean, Jean started on nonprofit radio on, on show number seven show number. So

[00:32:57.14] spk_2:
right, that’s right. So he also wins the award for longest running guest jean. He gets to awards 20

[00:32:58.81] spk_7:
10 I think

[00:33:10.94] spk_1:
It was, it was 27 absolutely. It was, it was August 27 of 2010. Exactly right. That was the 7th show we had just started the month before. And Amy joined non profit radio on the 100th show.

[00:33:18.14] spk_5:
Yes, because I remember thinking like there’s all this stuff going on. What what is this show? You know,

[00:33:30.64] spk_1:
I didn’t know I wasn’t sure myself. So that would have been the 100th show would have been July of 2012 and with us ever since. So welcome. Welcome to the anniversary. Welcome

[00:33:36.92] spk_7:
congrats.

[00:34:10.74] spk_1:
Thank you. Thanks very much and you get you’re both gonna stay with us. Right, both of you are gonna stay for the duration. All right. All right. Um Amy, what’s what’s up at and 10 I should have said Amy, sample ward of course are technology and social media contributor naturally, you all know, you all know Amy and jeanne aimee Ceo of N 10 at 10 10 dot org. And AMY is at AMy R S Ward. What’s up in the MERS Ward or the N 10 World? You what’s up there?

[00:34:55.54] spk_5:
We Well, lots of good things. I mean, you know, we’re now in our Fy 22 Every, every year we get to like put stuff behind us, no more of the last 12 months, you know? Um I mean right now we’re getting ready to launch 22 NTC, you know, sessions, emissions folks have been tons of folks already volunteered to be on the committee’s. So doing all of that planning now and getting ready. I think that will be launched or announced to the community in like two weeks. So stand by watch that inbox. Get ready to pencil things into your calendar.

[00:34:57.84] spk_1:
Um Okay. 22 T. C. The nonprofit technology conference. Yeah. Where is that where is that going to be?

[00:35:06.54] spk_5:
I think that’s part of

[00:35:07.62] spk_1:
the is that part of the reveal reveal?

[00:35:11.31] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:35:12.25] spk_5:
Yes. Can

[00:35:13.54] spk_2:
you give us a hint? I

[00:35:22.54] spk_5:
can say all of you are invited and all of you can definitely make it.

[00:35:23.74] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:35:37.34] spk_1:
Okay Jean. Okay we’re waiting up so a couple of weeks we’re gonna hear about 20-80. Okay Jeanne, what’s going out? Gene of course our legal contributor uh Principal of

[00:35:39.05] spk_5:
Jean jean will appreciate the way that I nimbly answered your question,

[00:35:44.94] spk_7:
definitely looking at a legal second career

[00:35:47.88] spk_5:
Amy

[00:36:09.43] spk_1:
Jeanne, our legal contributor. He’s a principal attorney at neo the nonprofit and exempt organization law group in san Francisco Neo law group dot com. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog, which everyone should be subscribing to. It’s Simple Gene. It breaks things down. That’s why he’s our legal contributor. No, no.

[00:36:14.58] spk_5:
We email the intent board with links to jeans blog. Anytime they ask us a question, we don’t need to answer this. Gene already answered this. Here’s the answer. Go read this blog post jean. Can I ask you a question and take over the show.

[00:36:27.13] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:37:43.53] spk_5:
So we, because Anton puts on a big conference, um, we are connected to lots of other event planners and other organizations, you know, that have the big enough events where you’re like conventions and our hotel contracts, all these different pieces, you know, and really until a month or so ago, if you had contracts, it was, it was scary and stressful, but you were going to get out of them because you were legally not allowed to have events, you know? But now Covid’s over or something and like no more restrictions. So organizations that had contracts, you know, maybe for this summer and thought, okay, well we don’t have to worry. Like obviously we can’t have events like that can be over. Will plan something else are now stuck in this like, oh, I guess we are going to be beholden to these legal contracts that have massive fines because you know, the governor of whatever state is no longer barred events of, of a certain size or something, you know, Are you seeing, are you seeing folks trying to navigate that or did they somehow successfully negotiate out and we haven’t heard from them or what are you seeing in that world?

[00:38:40.02] spk_7:
So in anticipation of Tony’s question to me about what was going on, that’s a lot of what’s going on right now. Organizations trying to figure out post covid kind of post covid or wherever we happen to be now, how do we proceed? And yeah, having provision in the contract not to sell lawyers services, but right now is a time before you enter into a big contract for an event. You want to make sure you’ve got language in there that allocates risk and protects you. So to the extent you can and most contracts are not like rental card contracts where you have to agree to whatever they put in, most of them can be negotiated, that’s something to think of. And so tony great summer a lot of work. A lot of changes going on here. I hope everything’s been going well with you two.

[00:38:45.22] spk_1:
Oh absolutely. Um and Amy is going to get a bill from you for a legal consultation and I get a 30% cut of that because it’s cutting into non profit radio I like I like how she asked like how Amy asked jean, can I ask you a question and take over the show? She didn’t ask jean, ask the host,

[00:39:01.32] spk_2:
can I ask a question? Let’s keep

[00:39:27.02] spk_1:
advice for intend for free. Can I do that? I shouldn’t ask. All right. Uh no, we’re glad to help. We’re here to help nonprofits. We’re here to help nonprofits of course. And I want to introduce both of you to Scott. Stein, who you’ve not met. Scott is the composer of cheap red wine, which is our theme song that you hear at the intro and outro of every single, every single day.

[00:39:27.54] spk_5:
Didn’t we meet last july in this same

[00:39:30.32] spk_0:
setup

[00:39:36.52] spk_4:
I was gonna say Yeah, I think we did meet over zoom about a year ago.

[00:39:37.66] spk_1:
Okay, it would have been a year ago. Alright, well, back

[00:39:43.50] spk_7:
and Scott’s composition is incredible. So, the theme song,

[00:39:49.82] spk_1:
we all love cheap red wine. Absolutely. We’re going to hear it. We’re gonna hear it later on Scott. You’ve got another song for us right now though. Yeah,

[00:41:00.41] spk_4:
yeah, absolutely. I’ll do it off the forthcoming new record. Actually. I I think I did this one on your show, probably the lesson. We did it in person. I’m gonna do it again because we’re about to go record it. Um But I wrote it the morning of the show. I’d had this chorus kicking around in my head for several months. And remember I that morning I had gone, I dropped my my son off at daycare, who’s now too. So we probably about six months old at that point. And um after I got home, I had about maybe, 2030 minutes before I had to leave to come meet with you and I was like, go I just had my second cup of coffee. It kicked in. One of my favorite songwriters, dan Wilson is fond of saying that human songwriters are machines, you input espresso and songs come out. So, and that’s kind of what happened. So I’m paraphrasing, he said it more eloquently than I did. Alright. But anyway, so this is uh, so the two that was debuted on your show a couple years ago, I’m gonna rip res it here. I remember,

[00:41:12.75] spk_1:
I remember you telling that story,

[00:41:25.01] spk_4:
please. Yeah, it was that morning and I just like there there it was, oh, that’s what that song is supposed to be. So here it is. Uh, this is called, It’s a Good Life. Oh, I had to remember what key it was in. All right. Here we go.

[00:45:37.39] spk_0:
Uh huh. Yeah, I got some inside information. Someone slipped me a copy of the master plan. My sources are were reliable with the rental language. I don’t understand. You know, I’ve always been a cynic since the day. I can remember ways skipping past silver lightings. Always looking for the snow in september. But baby baby baby is a good high Oh baby baby. It’s a good hi. No matter who you are, you can’t see the nearest store. Baby baby. It’s a good I some days you’re offer busy. Some days you can’t get a damn thing. You’ve done. Some days you get the car keys. Some days it’s the keys. The thing that giants that you love lying. Very good reasons. But baby baby baby. It’s a good uh Oh, it’s a good lot. No matter how you sing the song, there’s always someone singing along baby baby, it’s good, allow once was up getting her what? Baby, baby, baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good I don’t, you stick to what you know, let me fly watching. Oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Yeah.

[00:45:54.59] spk_1:
Who scott stein thanks, I love that. Of course. I love the song debuted on nonprofit radio a couple of years ago. World world premiere was

[00:45:56.40] spk_4:
non profit here. It was an hour long, it was an hour old, that newborn.

[00:46:21.28] spk_1:
Thank you. Beautiful scott. Thank you scott stein scott stein music dot com. We had a couple of folks, uh, we had a couple of folks join us, another sponsor of nonprofit radio from turn to communications. Peter Pan a pento and scott. Westcott, both partners. That turn to Peter scott Welcome.

[00:46:24.68] spk_6:
Great to be here. And we, we came together even though we worked six hours apart. This was such a big occasion for us. I drove up to Erie pennsylvania to be here. So,

[00:46:34.78] spk_1:
uh, well and Scott living in here. He knows what a sacrifice that was.

[00:46:38.97] spk_8:
Yeah, it’s serious, but it’s not in the winner. So I mean, it’s a little bit, Yeah.

[00:46:57.68] spk_1:
Okay, Welcome. Welcome to the, to the anniversary show. Peter Scott for having us and, and thank you for your sponsorship as well. Grateful, grateful for that. Thank you. Turn to communications Media pr For, for nonprofits. Tell us tell us a little more detail than I’m able to go into in my 32nd sponsored messages.

[00:47:36.48] spk_6:
Sure. So, um, Scott and I started turn to communications about four years ago and we’ve been working, um, for quite a while building on our background as journalists and folks who’ve worked in and around the sector for a number of years, um, to help nonprofits um, tell their stories more effectively in the media and also be much, um, much clearer and more direct with reaching their target audiences through their content. So we work with quite a few community foundations, a number of national and local nonprofits and have really enjoyed, uh, helping nonprofits raise awareness about their work, um, dr action and and get results on some of their advocacy campaigns. And in some cases, raise some more money to

[00:48:12.77] spk_1:
scott. I’m often talking about the relationships that you can help folks build with media outlets. And as I’m doing the sponsor messages. Um, so, you know, for the weekly shows, talk about a little about the value of those relationships, how you build those relationships with media when when you’re not looking to be quoted or, or be a source.

[00:49:00.87] spk_8:
Yeah, so I think it’s, you know, there’s some legwork there and it’s a matter of, you know, first of all understanding what the journalists are looking for, what they need, and then voting that relationship over time, uh, being as useful as possible to them, you know, because they’re obviously swamped these days. I mean, they get hundreds of emails a day, you know, everyone pitching a story. So we really do focus on that relationship, you know, getting, you know, journalists what they’re working on what their beat is. Um, so, hey, we can be top of mind for them, you know, when they are doing a story and be just being able to give them information and get them sources in in the fastest way possible. So, uh, that ended up being a beneficial

[00:49:23.27] spk_6:
relationship for everybody, really does. And I think, you know, so much of our approach to media relations is to almost treat, um, not just our clients as clients, but the journalists themselves as clients. And in some cases finding ways to to be support to them, um, when it doesn’t necessarily benefit the organizations we work with, but building trust with them, making sure if if we can’t get them an answer or get them the people they need through our network, um, reaching out and connecting them with people who we might not be working with so that we can, you know, provide them with value and build

[00:49:51.87] spk_1:
trust. And isn’t that just basic, that’s just basic relationship building in any in any in any network or bunch of friends, you know, you get to know each other and you help each other when when someone needs help you. And there’s and there’s no, you know, there’s no benefit for you. You don’t even think about

[00:49:56.12] spk_8:
that journalists or human beings.

[00:49:59.40] spk_1:
I’ve heard, I’ve heard rumors to that effect. Yes.

[00:50:07.86] spk_2:
Well as a journalist, as a, as a, as a working longtime journalist, we are human. Absolutely. But then we leave and work for nonprofits and uh,

[00:50:14.08] spk_1:
you know,

[00:50:14.32] spk_8:
I think you’re right Tony, I mean, basically the same same fundamentals

[00:50:40.66] spk_1:
and you both are journalists. So you’ve gotten, you’ve been on the receiving end of thousands of pitches, tens of thousands through the years. Peter used to be at the Chronicle of philanthropy. So you have a special niche within nonprofits. Um, so the two of you together, you know, it’s a, it’s an ideal relationship. And uh, and I’m, I’m pleased to say tell folks that, that the plane giving accelerator that I have is a, is a, is a client of turn two.

[00:51:06.96] spk_6:
That’s right. And uh, yeah, so tony Uh, you know, we, we often tell the story on your anniversary shows about how, um, you came into the Chronicle office back when I was working there with the idea for tony-martignetti non profit radio And we actually did a kind of a parallel podcast through the Chronicle for a number of years to so tony was a podcasting pioneer, which

[00:51:52.86] spk_1:
thank you maybe maybe just an early adopter, an early adopter, maybe you’re being degenerate, but thank you, thank you. Yeah. And you can find that old collaboration that I did with the, uh, with, with the Chronicle of philanthropy. It’s called fundraising fundamentals. It ran about four or 5 years, Much shorter, like 12, 10, 12, 15 minutes was the longest episode we ever did. And but it’s still out, it’s still on apple podcasts and I don’t know about other sites, but folks mentioned it to me occasionally fundraising fundamentals and that was peter and I collaborated on that, but that created that so long running relationship. Thanks thanks for and again, thanks for your sponsorship. Turn to thank you

[00:51:58.36] spk_6:
so thrilled to thrilled to have the partnership and you have such a great audience in such great guess. We’re really thrilled to be associated with it.

[00:52:21.55] spk_1:
Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks to both of you. Oh my pleasure. Um you’re welcome to hang out if you like guys, we’re uh we’re gonna give out some more Tony awards. Claire has some more Tony awards and I should have said uh you all are stuck with a lackluster host, you know that you know that by now I should have said that uh these are the authentic tony awards, those imposter awards on broadway, their name for their name for someone named Antoinette Perry, she’s not, her name isn’t even tony it’s T. O. And I Internet is T. O. And I. But they change it to T. O. N. Y. Awards. I don’t know why they made it a masculine when it was named for a woman. Why did they do that? It’s all about the imposters, imposters

[00:52:50.74] spk_2:
imposters. So they give these awards for what were you know, writing a whole broadway show and performing it on a stage in front of thousands of people and creating joy for millions. Got really come on that all about

[00:53:06.75] spk_1:
the real awards are right. Really? What’s

[00:53:08.11] spk_4:
got its cake? It’s not it’s no work at all

[00:53:11.12] spk_1:
knew scott would take offense at that. Um there’s yeah, no, this is the real these are the real Tony awards right here, Claire you have you have a couple of

[00:53:20.57] spk_2:
couple. We have, we have a couple more awards. Not too many, but the next Tony award. And let me get my

[00:53:28.85] spk_0:
or award the nun the

[00:53:30.29] spk_2:
Tony award for most famous guest on tony-martignetti non profit radio goes to dan Pallotta. tony Tell us about dan Pallotta.

[00:54:10.84] spk_1:
That was April 3, 2015 uh he had a famous or infamous depending on your perspective. Ted Talk called the way something like the way we think about charities or the way we look at charities is all wrong and it was provocative and he got a lot of fame for that he had or infamy again uh when you look at it. Um so millions of views widely, widely um quoted and interviewed Peter you may know did you? I’m sure the Chronicle certainly covered dan Pallotta and his ted talk.

[00:54:19.44] spk_6:
Yes, yes, it got a lot of attention around that time. I was still at the Chronicle back then and you know, I interviewed dan a few times and and he wrote quite a bit of he wrote some provocative op ed pieces back in the day to certainly a big name in the field, although not as much so now. I don’t think

[00:54:47.94] spk_5:
he even was a keynote at the end. You see Peter, do you remember what year that was? It was before I was Ceo, So it so it was not

[00:54:48.82] spk_2:
2013.

[00:54:53.34] spk_5:
It had to have been before 20 12 2011.

[00:54:55.64] spk_6:
It was really yes. Yes. But

[00:55:01.24] spk_5:
I mean his keynote was the same, you know,

[00:55:02.84] spk_0:
topic. Yes, yes.

[00:55:05.74] spk_7:
We didn’t show Tony responding to one of Dan’s offense or his TED Talk in 2013 as well. So we talked about it as

[00:55:13.69] spk_1:
well. That’s right. We did a little postmortem about the issues that he raised. Exactly jean. Thank you.

[00:55:27.54] spk_2:
Interesting. And we have another Tony award that goes to the and I’m going to lower my voice. Softest spoken, famous guest. So the softest spoken famous guest award, Tony award goes to not dan Pallotta, it goes to Craig Newmark, the founder of craigslist, tony Tell us more,

[00:56:07.93] spk_1:
Craig. Newmark is terrific. You know, he founded Craig’s, you have to say Craig Newmark, the founder of Craigslist because nobody knows it because he’s so modest, you know, uh he didn’t turn craigslist into a billion dollar platform uh like so many tech entrepreneurs do. He resisted that. And so, you know, he we don’t know his name the way we know other tech entrepreneurs who can remain unnamed because we all know who they are, Right? So you have to say

[00:56:08.96] spk_5:
being sued by the federal government or what they’ve done with their social media platforms.

[00:56:43.43] spk_1:
Yes. Being sued by the former guy, the former president as well. So Craig Newmark is the founder of craigslist. He resisted the temptation to turn it into a billion dollar platform. He kept it free or very, very low cost and and craigslist exploded for that. And that just exemplifies his character is so you know, he’s modest, he’s soft spoken. Uh and so that’s why he’s got to be non profit radios, most softest spoken famous guests.

[00:56:54.63] spk_2:
And we have one final Tony Award. It’s a very important one. Yeah. And the Tony award for best original score. The Tony award goes to scott stein for a cheap red wine.

[00:57:01.48] spk_0:
Wait till I

[00:57:05.88] spk_4:
have to play underscoring for that

[00:57:07.90] spk_2:
for your own award. Yes, you got to do it all. You’re the only music I hear

[00:57:12.55] spk_4:
stuck. I’m stuck in the orchestra pit, even when I’m getting

[00:57:20.13] spk_2:
congratulations scott. Absolutely. Now you can say now you can say Tony award winning composer scott. Stein

[00:57:26.74] spk_0:
really

[00:57:28.64] spk_2:
with a

[00:57:29.03] spk_5:
little after a big

[00:57:31.25] spk_2:
let’s ask Gina, big asterisk

[00:57:34.67] spk_1:
and, and, and, and note, put it at the end. Not, not the footnote, it’s easier to meet, put it at the end.

[00:57:41.33] spk_4:
Uh, tony-martignetti I’m a big baseball fan. So any award that comes with an asterisk, you know, like,

[00:57:46.83] spk_1:
all

[00:57:47.91] spk_4:
right. Like all the batting titles from like

[00:57:49.84] spk_2:
Pete Rose or

[00:57:51.19] spk_4:
barry bonds is anyway, but thank you.

[00:58:05.72] spk_1:
Absolutely. I love cheap red wine. It’s been our theme song listeners have heard it at the beginning and the end of every single show for many years, many years since we got brought together by a lawyer friend, I mentioned,

[00:58:19.82] spk_4:
uh, josh, Good name of mine. Exactly, joseph, but his name is, joseph goes by josh. But so thank you josh. If you’re I hope you’re out there listening to this right now, so cool.

[00:58:51.32] spk_1:
Thank you josh. Indeed. And I want to thank everybody it’s time for. Thanks Claire Meyerhoff, thank you for co hosting. Thank you for being non profit radios creative producer. You’ll find Claire on linkedin and the company is the planned giving agency PG agency dot com scott Stein. Love it scott. Thank you. Thank you so much. Every anniversary show, I always look forward to it. Thank you very much. You’ll find scott at scott stein music dot com and a new album coming shortly. The recording starts tomorrow, so we don’t really

[00:59:00.52] spk_4:
know. But fall, fall, maybe winter. We’ll see. We’ll see how long this takes

[00:59:43.12] spk_1:
scott stein music dot com. We’ll give you the latest jean takagi principle of neo law group uh the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law group. Neo law group dot com edits that nonprofit law blog at nonprofit law blog dot com. So many aptly named to see everybody took my aptly named host, uh not private law blog dot com. You need to be following that. That’s uh, you know, if you’re not, it’s your life, I can’t help you. Uh you need to. And he’s at G Attack AMy sample award With us since the 100th show ceo of intent and our technology and social media contributor and 10 dot org. And at AMY R. S Ward. I know AMY has to go to a meeting, so thank you, Amy. Thanks for being with us.

[00:59:52.69] spk_5:
Yeah, Thanks everybody. Congratulations, tony

[00:59:56.17] spk_1:
Thank you, Amy. Thanks

[00:59:57.40] spk_5:
congratulations. All the tony winners.

[01:00:05.41] spk_1:
All the tony All the winners. All your fellow award winners. Yes, go tell your staff you won an award. You want to tell

[01:00:07.59] spk_2:
everyone

[01:00:12.71] spk_1:
tony All right. And peter pan Pento scott. Westcott, thank you again for your sponsorship. Uh turn to communications that turn hyphen two dot C. O. And so thank you gentlemen,

[01:00:25.81] spk_6:
thanks so much for giving us a little time. This is

[01:00:27.84] spk_8:
great. We will strive for a Tony award in the future.

[01:00:41.01] spk_1:
Stay. You can the longest running sponsor. If you if you hang in there scott stein, you know you gotta take us out with cheap red wine. All right. Mhm.

[01:05:09.29] spk_0:
Uh huh. Mm Uh huh. I think I just want you you see your romantic investment to build what I’m looking for answers up on a tv screen. We can’t agree on nothing. We had till the ropes from my down. Yeah, we’re disappointed each other not to be baby and just love that we found you know, you used to find me charming. Gonna care figure out how you see you thought I was handsome. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling from my punch lines. As long as your time will allow. God, I reckon promises if I let you read a wine and how wear diamonds and they’re tired of the clothing that way. Yeah. Love to put over for the good stuff and you’re too easily to stretch the tooth care. Well, I ain’t got too many options so I’m gonna do the best that I can. Well maybe you’ll have some competition a day when I’m a wealthy man. You know, you used to ferment your I’m gonna care figure out how you see if you thought it was him. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling more. But as long as your time will allow because I’ve got her any promises about ideology, their wine and thou oh yeah, maybe let’s raise our glasses. Take a dream to better days. The other people can kiss our asses, but in life he said, and I ain’t get across the heavens. The woman flashed victory sides because we’re perfect for each other as long as well. Nobody else in mind. Oh yeah. You know, you used to care, figure out how can you say? Never mind. Don’t matter now. So keep falling from a problem in my life, jeanne red or whatever. Mm Next week on nonprofit radio I’m just gonna have to trust me. I was focused on the fire and so I don’t know what’s coming up, but I promise you it will not be the fermentation. She can you missed any part of this week’s show I’ve been finding at tony-martignetti dot com responded by turn to communication. You are currently on profits. Your story is their mission terran hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue and only all in one digital marketing

[01:05:11.59] spk_2:
pact. Powering

[01:05:12.73] spk_1:
nonprofits to grow.

[01:05:44.79] spk_0:
tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant going through a creative producer is the wonderful Claire Meyerhoff show. Social media is by students Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy And this music is by Scott Steiner. Thank you for that after making money you with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be bobby.

Nonprofit Radio for July 5, 2021: Your 5-Point, 1-Hour Legal Audit

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: Your 5-Point, 1-Hour Legal Audit

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns! He walks you through five quick checks of your nonprofit’s documents, processes and status, to make sure you’re on the right side of the law. Gene is our legal contributor and managing attorney at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 

Listen to the podcast

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We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:46.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of pro so PAG nausea if I saw that you missed this week’s show. Eur 5.1 Our legal audit, jeanne Takagi returns, he walks you through the five quick checks of your nonprofits, documents, processes and status that make sure you’re on the right side of the law genius. Our legal contributor and managing attorney at neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law group on tony state too. Mayor Cooper, We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, what a pleasure to welcome as it always is, Jean Takagi back to nonprofit radio He is our legal contributor of course and managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in SAN Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com and he’s at G attack. You certainly should be following him if you’re not. Uh it’s your life. Welcome back jean,

[00:01:57.19] spk_1:
Great to be back. tony How are you?

[00:02:03.54] spk_0:
Always a pleasure you’re smiling, I love it, thank you. How is everything going in san Francisco wise now? Late june

[00:02:08.14] spk_1:
well we’ve been having really comfortable, even chilly weather that Mark Twain quote, I don’t think it was actually Mark Twain, but about the coldest day spending a summer in san Francisco is uh somewhat apt right now, but I’m not envying the high temperatures up in my home country of the pacific northwest

[00:02:43.84] spk_0:
Oregon. I was just talking to AMY sample ward earlier today and yesterday too. And uh 116 she said it’s broken. It’s broken since then, but uh astronomically high temperatures for for three days in a row. They had.

[00:02:49.04] spk_1:
Yeah, unbelievable.

[00:02:54.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I know. Okay. But you’re you’re much more comfortable in san Francisco good complaints taking any time off this summer.

[00:03:00.84] spk_1:
Um I’m planning to go back to Canada once the borders are open to visit my mom and family, but no word on the official opening date yet, we’re hoping by August one.

[00:03:12.79] spk_0:
Okay, So Canada is still restricting us residents?

[00:03:16.74] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s still kind of closed off right now, but we’ll see when it opens up again. Okay.

[00:03:23.37] spk_0:
Okay. Maybe I’ve been paying more attention to Australia than I have Canada. I know, I know Sydney is on a new lockdown. All right, Where in Canada? Where is your family in Canada?

[00:03:33.44] spk_1:
In Vancouver? So in that pacific northwest?

[00:03:50.44] spk_0:
Yes. Right. Right. All right. So you have this nifty one hour, 5. for us. A review of documents and a process and your status. Why don’t you why don’t you get us started? But this is not this is a legitimate audit. Uh Not a uh this is not an Arizona style audit from.

[00:04:05.84] spk_1:
Yeah. And this is an accountant. Side it. So this is kind of your own internal check of do these things and you’ll sleep better at night knowing that you’re either okay or you know what you need to fix. So,

[00:04:12.32] spk_0:
okay, if you need to fix some things, you might need someone like, like you to help.

[00:04:28.54] spk_1:
Could be or you might even be able to do it yourself. So, some of the fixes are easy. Some of the fixes might be a little bit more difficult, but um, you should know where you stand. I think that’s that’s the first thing and that’s why

[00:04:32.36] spk_0:
for sure. First step, no, no your status. Okay. So so kick us off. What’s your what’s your first idea?

[00:05:48.04] spk_1:
So I think the first thing you look at is your articles or certificate of incorporation. That was your formation document to start out with. And you want to see what the purpose of the organization is. So the articles govern every other there the like the one ring that rules all the rings showing my geeky side. That’s the one document that rules all the other documents and there’s no superseding what the articles say. So the articles say in the purpose statement, what you do and you’ve evolved past that. Maybe there’s a geographic limitation that says you only operate in new york in the articles and, you know, 50 years ago, that was true. But since then, you’re, you know, you’re operating in the tri state area or also in California, whatever that may be your articles, we’ll tell you what you can and can’t do and if they’re so limiting and you’ve grown past it, you’ve got to fix that. So amending the articles would be the next step. But within that one hour, it’ll probably just take you two minutes to read that purpose statement and say, oh, this is right online with our mission statement or it’s so broad that it covers anything we might do now, we’re in the future. Or you might get that note that says, ah, because the geographic limitation or our purpose isn’t so specific anymore. We’ve expanded beyond that and we need to fix it. So that that’s the first thing.

[00:06:06.24] spk_0:
Why does this matter? Well, suppose we have evolved past what our articles of incorporation say. That’s an ancient document. Yeah, it got us started. Uh, it’s outlived its usefulness. What’s the difference?

[00:07:00.84] spk_1:
Well, it’s that one document that rules all that that still is in effect. So even though it was drafted and adopted a long time ago, that is the principle document that governs what you can do. So, if you’re doing something that you’re not allowed to do in your articles, you could actually be subject to a lawsuit that says you are operating and diverting charitable assets that were intended for this purpose. Which was your article in the Articles of Incorporation and now using it for another purpose. So that’s, that’s the big thing to, to, to worry about in terms of operating outside of your articles. How much is this enforced? Probably not very much absent a complaint from somebody, but if you have an unhappy board member or an unhappy donor that takes a look at the articles or an unhappy thunder, um, that can get you into some trouble. And it probably shows you that the very, very most basic step in your due diligence on your homework about making sure your organization is run properly. You missed. Um, and that could be a sign of other problems. So you want to fix that if it’s if it’s a problem, don’t lose too much sleep over it, but identify it and fix it if necessary.

[00:07:40.64] spk_0:
Alright, so you mentioned funders, I assume this is such a basic document. And we uh, you lawyers, me former lawyer would call them your organic documents because they are your your origin. This and the next one we’re gonna talk about your bylaws. Um, so these are, these are commonly asked for by by, by foundations or other other institutional funders,

[00:08:02.44] spk_1:
I wouldn’t necessarily say commonly, but they’re usually publicly available. Um, and so that means that anybody could ask for it and you would have to give it to them or more often it’s just available on the Secretary of State’s website or something where you could just alright file, you

[00:08:08.64] spk_0:
want to, you want to avoid embarrassment there too, if you like that. Um, What about financial purposes? Would would banks if you were opening up some kind of credit relationship or something, might they ask for your articles of incorporation?

[00:09:37.54] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s not so uncommon for a bank to take a look to see your formation document. They’re not going to be sort of regulating whether you’re operating within your purpose or not. But one thing to think about is that if a donor gives to you, and let’s say your purpose was to feed those experiencing homelessness in new york city. Um, and then 10 years later, oh, by the way, you want to turn into an arts organization that supports the opera in Manhattan. Um, you could do that by amending your articles and if you do something drastic like that, if, if your mission has evolved over time, quite distinct from what you originally planned and you never bothered fixing your articles, that could be seen as a serious breach and diversion of charitable assets. So a donor that donated to you would have expected you to be in compliance with your articles and may have donated based on that reliance that you’re helping the homeless rather than supporting the opera. And that’s another thing you need to avoid. So if you were raising funds under the old purpose, the funds that you raised are still stuck on that purpose, you can’t deploy those assets for a brand new purpose that you never informed, um, the government agency that has your secretary, your articles of incorporation filed, um, you can’t divert it for other purposes.

[00:10:00.84] spk_0:
Okay. And that’s, that’s probably the Secretary of State. Uh, well, it varies, I shouldn’t say, probably it’s right. Secretary of State in some states, some states, it’s the Attorney General’s Office has a charities bureau, that might be the office in some places.

[00:10:24.24] spk_1:
Yeah, So the Secretary of State or division of corporations or something like that would be the ones that are looking at your articles on the formation and then amending it. So they’re kind of a ministerial body. The Attorney General’s usually are your charities regulator. So they would be the ones that say you’re not, you’re using charitable assets for the wrong purpose.

[00:10:33.94] spk_0:
Okay, right. Because you are incorporated as a not for profit corporation in your state. So that’s why Gene, that’s why you’re saying you folks are incorporated as that in that way. So that’s why it would be whatever agency that regulates the corporations in your state,

[00:10:48.24] spk_1:
Right? That’s that’s how you would fix the articles and why you want to check check, because anybody else may be able to pull those articles from that, that department,

[00:11:38.34] spk_0:
you’re, you’re a nonprofit corporation, yep. Under state law, it’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, The new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, usa Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten exposure. Do you want that kind of exposure Turn to has the relationships that can make it happen? Turn hyphen two dot c o. Your story is their mission. All right. So I mentioned, uh, the second check of our five is your bylaws remind folks what the purpose of the bylaws are and what are we looking for here?

[00:14:33.14] spk_1:
The bylaws are pretty much the instruction manual for how your organization is governed by governed. I mean, sort of board of directors, how they operate, how they meet, who are the officers of the organization? What authority do they have? What committees do they have? Um, and so really are more specific than the articles of incorporation, although they have to be consistent with the articles because again, the articles rule all. Um, but in an hour you won’t be able to review your whole bylaws. But what I suggest here in that one hour audit is check the provisions on how directors are selected. So there may be a regular election process where the board is called self perpetuating the board elects its own successors. But oftentimes organizations will forget to elect their directors. You know, when their term ends. That might say the term is two years or three years, um, and they just let directors keep serving until they want to resign. Well, that’s a problem. Um, so making sure that you are fulfilling the requirements uh, about director elections is really important. And sometimes directors are selected through other methods. They might be appointed or designated by another party or an individual. And that’s pretty common in private foundations, a little less common in public charities. But if you have those type of provision in your bylaws, you want to make sure that the person who is appointing or designating them is actually doing so. Uh, and you want to make sure that you’re sort of following all the provisions about, well, how elections are supposed to be run if they’re nominating processes or anything else, if you’re not complying with those, get rid of them. Um, and, and state exactly how you are electing directors. And and that’s that’s what you should really check, because if you enter into a big transaction, like a merger or you’re going to get into a big lease, oftentimes, the other party may want to see your bylaws. Um, and you are making representations in that contract of saying that we are in compliance with all of our organizational documents, uh, and by not checking whether you are or not, especially on the selection of directors, which is maybe the most important thing in your bylaws. Um, that’s that’s a huge red flag and they let the other party off the hook to be able to cancel that contract that you entered into and kick you out if it’s a lease or blow the merger up. So you want to make sure if you’re making those type of representations that you are compliant, and again, it’s just basic compliance. That’s one of the, you know, top five, I would say, to make sure your directors are regularly elected. So you want to make sure you cover your bases just to look like a good corporate citizen.

[00:15:03.34] spk_0:
And part of what you’ll find in the Bye laws is how to amend the bylaws. So if you find that you’re not complying with what the bylaws are. Either I get you either amend the bylaws to, to the way you are practicing now or conform your practice to what the bylaws says. But but if you need to amend the bylaws in the by laws, that should say how to amend them right with some majority or other vote of the board members, I presume.

[00:15:24.14] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. So if it’s really simple, it’ll say you can amend it by action of the board, but there are some complicated amendment provisions as well. So now we’re digging a little deeper. So if we do need to amend it, we’re going to go more than an hour on our overall legal review. Okay? Yeah. It is something you’re going to need to do and you want to check in that case. If you can get, if you have the resources to afford a lawyer, can get a pro bono lawyer, have them help you with the amendment to the bylaws. That’s a pretty major action.

[00:16:02.34] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Well, yeah, but we’re just that were the exploratory state. This is an audit. We’re not, we’re not doing the corrective actions were preparing. We’re preparing our auditor’s report. So we know we know we’re uh we we’re okay. Sleeping soundly. We’re not we don’t have any time bombs that we’re not aware of. The unknown unknowns. We don’t have any of those because we’re digging. Okay? But then if you need to go further beyond the the hour, you probably should read all your by laws to make sure that everything you’re doing is in compliance with what you say you’re supposed to be doing.

[00:16:17.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And, you know, even before you hire a lawyer, it would be a great idea for cost efficiency to figure out what you actually do that’s compliant with the bylaws and wherever you’re not compliant. So you can just make that list for the lawyer to say, oh, we haven’t been doing this. Can you help us fix it?

[00:16:48.14] spk_0:
Okay. Right. And then, Right. And there are gonna be provision of state law, right? That are going to govern some of the actions, depending on what they are. All right. That’s where we get too much in the weeds. Okay. That’s why you need. That’s why it’s good to have some help. Either paid or pro bono. So, you know, you’re complying with state law if you need to amend your bylaws.

[00:16:50.74] spk_1:
That’s right.

[00:16:58.84] spk_0:
Okay. Cool. I say I’m trainable. I’m training through the years. I’ve picked up some things from you. Um, All right. What’s our what’s our number three of five?

[00:17:25.34] spk_1:
So number three is because fundraising is so important, of course, for for non profit organizations, you want to make sure that you are helping your donors as well. And if you don’t have the right language and your donor receipt, a donor might not be able to take a charitable contribution deduction if audited and might get it reversed on them. So it’s really important to know what you need to put in a donation receipt.

[00:17:32.64] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and we know that, uh, for donations of $250 or more, that’s when, that’s when you have to issue the receipt.

[00:19:06.04] spk_1:
Yes. So that is for for donors, the donor might need just a check, you know, their, their return check for, or a copy of the check for a donation of $100 until they take a deduction for that may be enough. But if it is $250 or more, they need a special receipt coming back from the charity. Uh, and in that receipt, of course, it’s, you know, the name of the donor and the amount donated. And if there’s non cash stuff, a description of that stuff. But what’s key is there has to be a specific sentence in there that says something to the effect of, um, no goods or services were provided by the organization in return for this contribution. Um, or if there was something that was given back to the, to the donor in exchange, that wasn’t just very trivial. And what lawyers called the minimus jargon jail there, but uh, for something so so trivial and small, like a little sticker or something, you don’t have to value that. But if it’s something like a ticket to a concert, um, it’s kind of like the same type of receipt for those of you out there that attend a gala event and you get the chicken dinner that comes with your, you know, uh, Attendance and you spend $100 on a ticket, you get some sort of receipt that comes back to you saying Thank you for your $100 by the way, $25 with the value of your chicken dinner. So you can get a charitable contribution deduction of up to $75. So that’s the same type of thing that you would expect here.

[00:20:00.94] spk_0:
The other, the other place this plays out a lot is uh schools with sporting events. When people make a donation and maybe in exchange for their donation, they get a ticket package of some value. So you have to report that reveal that ticket value in your receipt or your acknowledgement letter. The other thing we didn’t mention is okay, Okay. Um also the date of gift, which which becomes important at the end of the year. Some, you know, some last minute december 30 december 31 gifts might not get processed until early january, but the gift was received On December 30 or 31st. So you want to make that? Make that clear?

[00:20:54.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Absolutely. And the I. R. S. Has a publication. If you if you google I. R. S. Sort of donor receipt, you’ll probably find the publication that tells you exactly what elements that you should include on a receipt. And when it’s triggered, we talked about $250 or more. There’s also something called the quid pro quo, which we talked about as well. The chicken dinner type contribution. So there’s certain elements that need to be put in depending upon that gift. And what else comes back to the donor in return. Just take a quick look at that but make sure your donor received has that language if nothing is returned back to the donor that it actually states that because in every legal case where the I. R. S. Tries to deny a deduction and the donor fights it, this could sometimes be for like a million bucks or two million or $10 million. The IRS always wins because the plain language of the statute says if you don’t have this language you don’t get a deduction and it’s hard to fight. Even if you think for moral reasons of course they gave this gift and they should get a deduction and it’s just one little sentence or phrase that’s missing. That’s ridiculous. But that’s the law.

[00:23:26.04] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two Mr cooper. If you were a fast listener last week, you would have listened on monday and you would have heard a nonprofit radio with an inappropriate Tony is take two. I made a inappropriate joke about drug addiction and boasted about privilege without bothering to acknowledge it. If you heard that show that had that version of tony state too, I’m sorry you had to listen to that. I regret that I recorded it. I thank the team at N 10 and Amy Sample Award for Pointing out the inappropriate Tony’s take 2 to me. They did it on monday by Tuesday morning. There was a new version of nonprofit radio with a different Tony is take two. I hope it never happens again. If it does, I hope you and your fellow listeners. Well, let me know that is tony state too. Now, back to your 5.1. Our legal audit. The publication you’re referring to is uh, 526. It’s, it’s written, it is very, really, very valuable. Um, It’s written for donors to tell them what they need to substantiate. But nonprofits can use it to make sure that they’re giving their donors what they need to make the substantiation. So, uh, you’re right. It’s online it’s publication 526 and it it goes through all the rules that your donors have to follow. So you can help them by reading that right by checking that out as well.

[00:23:27.70] spk_1:
And there’s a little brochure to. That’s a summary of the things that we talked about which is even shorter so at least use that.

[00:24:29.04] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah 5 26 is pretty long but it’s got a link herbal or linked table of contents to, so there’s there’s some help. The I. R. S. Is I mean the folks are trying to do their jobs. I always I always feel bad for the I. R. S. I don’t know that’s a tough job, beleaguered agencies and nobody wants to pay them or do what they nobody wants to be uh questioned by them. People’s hearts race when they get an envelope from them, you know? But overall I mean I think for as broad as their work is I credit them and I think I think the I. R. S. Is I think they’re doing a good job as best they can with being having the reputation that they have and all this being so politicized through the years and etcetera. So I’ve never been audited though too. So maybe if I had been privately audited maybe maybe my opinion of the I. R. S. Would be different. I don’t know. Have you ever been audited jean?

[00:25:10.94] spk_1:
I have been when I left a big firm and opened my own firm, my income went down that first year dramatically because I left the big firm with no clients. So that triggered an audit. What are you doing? Okay. I’ll just say yeah the audit room at the I. R. S. Office is a very very depressing place where people are married. They’re scared out of their lives. It was academically it was kind of interesting for me because I had no no problems with explaining it. Um But uh yeah I could see the nerves or feel the tension in that office for both the IRS agents and the taxpayers. Okay.

[00:25:26.64] spk_0:
I’m glad you you stayed out of you stayed out of prison. Right. No fine. Okay. Okay. Just settled out. You settled uh admitted no guilt, admitted no wrongdoing and settled. All right. What’s next in our in our five points?

[00:26:45.04] spk_1:
Um So this one is kind of a little bit of a no brainer but I think just make sure you you’re standing with the I. R. S. Still says you have five oh one C. Three status. So I think it’s a good idea to check because your donors will be checking. Especially your funders will be checking. And it’s so simple to do, literally, if you’ve done it a couple times, you can do it in under a minute. Um, So the, you know, if you google I. R. S. And T. E. O. S, which stands for tax exempt organizations search. So I. R. S. Taos you’ll get the website where you just enter the organization’s name or E. I. N. And it’ll spit out a link and you link to your organization’s name and it’ll tell you if you’re five oh one C three, non or not. And whether you’re a public charity, which may be an important distinction for some organizations, a public charity would be obviously not a private foundation and not subject to all those other rules, uh, that private foundations are subject to. But if you don’t get the numbers right, you can actually tip over into private foundation status. Um So it’s an important thing for some organizations to keep track of to make sure you’re still five or once you re exempt uh And a public charity in the I. R. S. Views and that’s updated nearly weekly. So um you have a good sense of where you actually stand and again take you a minute or two minutes to find that

[00:27:00.84] spk_0:
jean. Was that like three or four years ago when tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of organizations lost their exempt status because they hadn’t filed their their nine nineties for three consecutive years. I’m sure you remember that, What was that like 34 years ago or

[00:28:19.84] spk_1:
I think it was even longer, so I think it might have been Gosh, close to seven or eight years ago. Um and about 600,000 organizations, I believe tax tax exempt status. So it was a huge number um partly because smaller some organizations just weren’t running anymore. And the I. R. S. Doesn’t know when you stop running. So they’re just on the list of on their list and they were dropped off but many were actually running and just didn’t file their nine nineties and there was no rule before that said if you miss three in a row were automatically revoking your tax exempt status and it’s done electronically so it’s no agent discretion. It just happens. Um And so it’s hard to come back from that. It is possible but it’s still important for organizations to keep track if you miss 1990 or you’re late. Don’t worry too much about it. But if you have missed two High alert that you don’t even get an extension on your third missed one, even if you apply for one, you have to file it by the May 15 deadline if you’re a calendar filer. So pay attention to that.

[00:28:50.64] spk_0:
Okay important thank you. And you know this is an easy thing you can check in a couple minutes. Uh So it’s part of your one hour audit. So just make sure that something uh something didn’t happen even if you’re you’re sure you’re filing your nine nineties, you know for for two or three minutes. Check out uh I. R. S. Tax exempt organizations search

[00:29:12.94] spk_1:
just in case it was lost in the mail and you know the I. R. S. During the covid pandemic had I think 10,000,010 million pieces of paper filings in their warehouses that somebody had to process when they started coming back so they’re delayed still on that. So it annual filings could easily have been lost. Um So double check that website just to make sure you’re you’re okay.

[00:29:24.04] spk_0:
Yeah, be good to your organization please. All right. The last one when I love go ahead.

[00:30:40.44] spk_1:
So the same way you want to check with your I. R. S. Status, you probably want to check with your state status and that can be a couple agencies. So the corporate agency that we talked about, usually the secretary of state’s office, you want to make sure your corporation is in good standing, that they usually require some sort of annual or biannual filing that that comes to them. And then the attorney general or charities regulator might be a different agency. And they may also require charity registration on an annual basis. So making sure you file with each of those agencies is really important. And there’s usually an online database for most states where you can check to see what your most recent filing was and if you’re delinquent or if you’ve been suspended, um, or even uh, in in some cases, um, terminated because of lack of filing. So if if you find that, then, you know, there’s stuff to fix and you probably need to call a lawyer at that point, um, but just check it, if you check it annually, you’ll find it’s easy again, probably once you’ve done it once, and you write down a few notes about how to access that side, it’ll only take you a few minutes to just double check both the state, usually Secretary of State, for your corporation, um status and the Attorney General, or charities regulator for your charities registration status.

[00:31:11.94] spk_0:
You want to make sure that your uh, in compliance not and for the, for the ladder of that in compliance, not only in your state, but now I’m going beyond your one hour. But, uh, that’s okay. We’ll go a little deeper. You need to be in compliance with solicitation regulations in all the states where you are soliciting donations now, I just need a car, not just you and me,

[00:31:25.34] spk_1:
and they need to call somebody like you, if that’s the case. So if they know their fundraising in multiple states are using, um, people or companies to help them fundraise in other states, they need to call someone like you and say, hey, what do we need to do to make sure that we’re in compliance with that. Other states. Rules were not incorporated there, but we’re doing business or fundraising there. What do we need to do?

[00:32:53.24] spk_0:
Right. Thank you. It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag tisk, tisk. If you’re using those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your 5.1. Our legal audit for for the I’m going backwards a little bit because, you know, your host is lackluster. I’m sorry. Um if we find out that we’re on a step forward, if we’re not, if we have lost our IRS 501 C3 status for some reason, what would you recommend doing?

[00:34:24.84] spk_1:
So find out the reason first of all. So if it was for failing to file 3990s in a row that’s probably the most common reason for getting your exemption revoked. Um Find out if that was actually true. Did you actually miss those filings? Did an accountant help you with them? Did some volunteer do that find out what the status is? Uh and then contact the I. R. S. To ensure that that was the actual reason and if you have filed the 19 nineties and the IRS has somehow lost it you should tell that to them. Um See if you have a like a return receipt which I always recommend if you haven’t electronically filed, make sure you have some evidence that actually got sent uh to the I. R. S. Office because that will help you. And if they had made the mistake or they lost the finding that will help them reverse the process. But if it is actually the case where you fail to file um have those filings ready to go. Some hire an accountant or somebody who can help you prepare those files, have them ready to go. And there is a reinstatement process where you actually have to Fill out the form 1023 which is the exemption application that a start up would have to file. But you’re doing it for reinstating your tax exempt status. Um So there is a process the I. R. S. Has tried to make it easier for some organizations where they just kind of missed filings but it hasn’t been like We’ve been out of compliance for 20 years,

[00:34:26.73] spk_0:
we’ve never filed. Yeah

[00:34:49.44] spk_1:
so go through that process if you can get a lawyer or an accountant to help you um, please do. So it’s while they try to make it as easy as possible. It’s still kind of complicated and there are some nuances that can help you and the sum that can hurt you. So that’s going to take a little bit longer to fix if you have to fix it. But it is for the most part fixable.

[00:34:54.44] spk_0:
If we’re going to go beyond our one hour, 55 point legal audit, what would, where would we spend more time?

[00:36:44.53] spk_1:
So there are some common areas of concern for nonprofits. I would say one of the big ones is getting your independent contractor employee distinction. Right? So knowing what the difference is, because I would say that a lot of organizations when they get into trouble, they get into trouble on that point. And on that point, volunteer borrowing members could actually be held personally liable for non payment of payroll taxes. And by that, I mean, if you determine that a worker is an independent contractor, but legally they should have been an employee, let’s say they’re working 40 hours a week and they don’t work for anyone else, and they’re doing the job that, you know, an executive director does for an organization. But you go, I don’t want to pay the payroll taxes because we can’t afford it. So we’re just going to call you an independent contractor, that’s not going to be consistent with the definition that the I. R. S. Views and the state may have their own definitions as well. Um, but the employer for an employee has to pay their portion of the payroll tax. If the payroll tax didn’t get paid, uh, then there may be a claim against the organization. And then in enforcing that, they may say this was the board’s fault, charitable assets should not be used to pay for this type of penalty because this was sort of gross negligence on this part. So board members could be out of pocket to pay for those payroll taxes if they haven’t been paid. So because withholding and paying payroll taxes, the employer shares is the employer’s duty. So be careful of that one distinction I would say is my next thing, that’s going to take longer, but it would be the next thing on my audit list. Okay.

[00:37:17.93] spk_0:
Yeah. Common misconception that if we, if we call them a contractor and we send them a 1099, then that’s what they are. And, and there’s a whole, you and I have done shows on this, there’s a whole test of, you know, do they work for the people whose equipment do they use, Who sets the hours, who sets the location of the work, Who sets the timing of the work? It’s the whole list of fact multi factor test. Uh, So it’s not just, you know, you call it a, you call them an independent contractor because you’re saving on employment taxes and uh and unemployment and and benefits that are required. It’s not it’s not that simple. So,

[00:37:32.43] spk_1:
okay, not only the I. R. S. Could be involved, but the person the worker who got misclassified could actually go after you later

[00:37:40.89] spk_0:
or your state or your state Department of Labor.

[00:38:13.52] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. And they may have a slightly different definition of independent contractors and employees. And California is kind of this big example because they’re there sort of leading the way if you will in terms of employment rights. Um, and so they have made a much more difficult distinction, making it very hard for nonprofits to claim that they have independent contractors if they occupy the type of job that an employee would occupy. So even if it was for a limited duration of time, that may not matter anymore that they were there for three months only, but if they were an administrative assistant or an executive director, they may need to be called a temporary or part time employee and not an independent contractor anymore. So it’s gotten much, much tougher on the state level.

[00:38:40.12] spk_0:
What’s next? What in your experience, what do you see as another common problem?

[00:40:23.81] spk_1:
So not necessarily a problem. But for a way for the boards to sort of quickly get policies in place to make sure that they’re doing their job in terms of providing oversight since they’re not there every day. And you know, maybe they’re meeting once a month or once every other month. Um uh and maybe for just a couple hours. So there’s only so much that they can do. But what they can do is create some policies or have policies created that they can approve that governed the organization. And these policies, some of them are referenced in the form 9 90. And the 9 90 asks you the I. R. S. Is asking you through the 9 90 do you have these policies and if you say no, Well it used to be kind of normal awhile ago, you know, more than 10 years ago for a lot of organizations to say no, but since they started asking these questions, I think in 2000 eight maybe. Um the more often you put no the more an outlier you become because most organizations have seen these questions and said, oh if we keep saying no to this, is this going to trigger an audit risk? And the answer is probably yes. So saying yes to. We have these policies make sense. And that would be a document retention and destruction whistle blower. The Board Level Review of the Form 9 90. Um, those are really common ones that that you can incorporate really quickly. I would also add expense reimbursements. Who has signing authority. Can anybody in your organization signed a contract or sign a check or only the executive director? What if they’re not around? So just having policies rather than the board going, you guys figure it out. Having a policy in place is really important for a board to do gift acceptance, another one.

[00:41:03.31] spk_0:
Gift acceptance. Yeah, right. Uh, there’s another angle to this too, which is the, uh, the charity rating agencies, um, Charity Navigator. Uh, well, uh, the old guidestar now it’s merged and it’s Candid merged with the Foundation Center Candid. But those rating agencies also ask ask about the standard policies like whistleblower document retention, etcetera. Yeah, it’s a proxy conflict, conflict of interest, border conflict of interest, another another common commonly required policy.

[00:41:11.35] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I’m sorry, I missed that one because I think that’s the most important, one of all of them, outside of the articles and bylaws that I

[00:41:28.31] spk_0:
got, I got Eugene. All right, No problem. So, yeah. So aside from the I. R. S asking charity rating agencies ask also for these basic policies. All

[00:41:41.71] spk_1:
right. And it’s a proxy for them to say is this organization well governed. Does it have a good board of directors in place? And if you keep answering no, we don’t have these policies, then they’re going to assume that you’re not very well covered. Yeah,

[00:42:03.20] spk_0:
it’s like someone reading your bylaws or your articles of incorporation. You know, somebody might get a wild hair and decided to go read your articles of incorporation and then see that they are out of date. Or you might, you know, you might have your bylaws disclosed on your website. But some disgruntled person or just even some uh, neutral person might see that, you know, you don’t, you don’t conduct yourself the way your documents that you’re supposed to, you know, it’s embarrassing at the at the best. It’s embarrassing.

[00:42:14.50] spk_1:
Yeah. And for for older folks like me, tony when somebody has in their bylaws like you can deliver notice by telegraph. Not a great sign for some of the younger funders may be considering your organization.

[00:42:35.90] spk_0:
All right. All right. Or we can even update it and make it still bad facts. Notice noticed by facts. Facsimile.

[00:42:38.83] spk_1:
I still have a hotmail account so I’m okay with facts. All

[00:42:43.89] spk_0:
right. But you don’t use your fat. You don’t have a fax machine, do you?

[00:42:46.57] spk_1:
I still do

[00:42:47.63] spk_0:
you do you get any traffic on it?

[00:42:50.20] spk_1:
Um I I use effects as as my primary. So I have a paper printing facts as a backup. But exit the primary.

[00:43:09.10] spk_0:
Remember if ax you used to send people would send documents to the phone number right at like the phone number at the fax dot com. So that they would print on your machine. Wasn’t that isn’t how it works.

[00:43:17.90] spk_1:
So this effects is um they sent a fax to my fax machine. But I have my fax machine turned off and it sends me an email of what the facts would look like.

[00:43:30.10] spk_0:
Okay. Okay, well, that’s OK. So I’m starting. But there there was a there was in fact used to, somebody could send an email to your fax machine through the phone number at fox dot com and it would print on your machine.

[00:43:34.10] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. But

[00:43:35.44] spk_0:
You’ve updated your, you updated sometime around 1997, I guess

[00:43:40.32] spk_1:
one. Some level of

[00:43:41.57] spk_0:
you get an email now. Congratulations. You’re getting emails. All right. Uh,

[00:43:46.70] spk_1:
my anything don’t even answer emails now. It has to be text not responding.

[00:43:57.30] spk_0:
Right. Another year. It’ll just be if it’s not a Tiktok then forget about it. They don’t know you. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, jean. So we talked about our five points. You’re talking about going a little further. If you’re if you if you want the suma cum laude of legal audits, you can go a couple of steps further. Thank you very much. Gene

[00:44:12.79] spk_1:
great to be with you Tony. Thank you.

[00:44:30.29] spk_0:
My pleasure. Thank you, Jeanne Takagi Neo is the firm, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in SAn Francisco subscribe to this blog, nonprofit law blog dot com. It is wildly popular and jean is at g attack. Thanks again jean.

[00:44:32.19] spk_1:
Thanks tony

[00:45:27.59] spk_0:
next week. More from 21. NTC, the nonprofit technology conference. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chabon’s Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for March 22, 2021: Build Your Best Better Board

My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Build Your Best Better Board
Gene Takagi returns! He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately-sized, well-trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations law group.

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:39.64] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast, and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with dyskinesia if you gave me a taste of the idea that you missed this week’s show. Build your best Better board. Jeanne Takagi returns. He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately sized, well trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group tony State, too. Podcast pleasantries and planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome back, as it always is. Jeanne Takagi. These are legal contributor, managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the enormously popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com, and he’s at G Attack Gene, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:41.84] spk_1:
Thanks, Tony. It’s great to be back. How are you?

[00:01:59.94] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you. It’s always a pleasure. Many, many years. It’s a pleasure. Each time you’re you are teaching us what’s important, what we need to keep centered. What’s, uh where are ships Should all be facing in the same direction. So what direction is that? You keep us. Keep us on the straight path. I appreciate it. I know our listeners due to thank you.

[00:02:06.34] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony.

[00:02:23.84] spk_0:
Let’s get started with your building. Your best. Better board. We’re not We’re not gonna We’re not going to settle on nonprofit radio for your lackluster better board. We want your best, Better board. And I think the place to start is with board roles. So what are we expecting our board members to do?

[00:02:52.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I love this conversation, tony. It’s actually one of my favorites. And yeah, it was probably Gosh, it was early on, I think when we first talked a little bit about boards getting sort of distracted from doing the financial oversight and forgetting to do some of the other things that boards are supposed to do. Um, and, you know, part of what we talked about could have been, like 78 years ago was like, Hey, somebody should be over overseeing. You know, whether the program’s doing Are they having an impact or not? Are they really furthering your mission in the way that you want them to?

[00:03:11.94] spk_0:
You know, I have to remind you you and I did a mock board meeting one time, and either you threw me off the border. I walked out. I forget

[00:03:15.22] spk_1:
which

[00:03:30.04] spk_0:
back in the old studio was many years ago. I don’t know what we’re talking about. Something board related, obviously. But, uh, yeah, either I got booted off or I walked out and quit. I forget, uh, we’re trying to avoid that. We’re trying to avoid that in our best better board,

[00:03:32.54] spk_1:
but we’re definitely going to try to approach any of these things with extreme tact

[00:03:37.84] spk_0:
I lack, which I often lack. I probably walked out. I probably quit or something.

[00:06:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, just just overall, the same financial diligence is great. So take a look at the financials, make sure you understand them and make sure that the organization is able to pay off its debts that they become do that you’re not sort of bleeding money and just managing your financial assets. But non profits exist more than to produce a financial bottom line, of course. So you know in the for profit world boards and probably got a different duty, maybe a little bit more. I mean, everybody has to act in the best interests of the corporation, right? That’s a fiduciary duty. But what is the best interests of the corporation for for profit? Oftentimes it’s associated, at least in large part the benefit of its owners or shareholders. But in the non profit, there are no shareholders or owners, right? It’s for the benefit of advancing the mission. And that’s what the board has got to remember, that it’s got to be purpose driven. It’s got to be, um, acting in furtherance of the mission ahead of everything else. Um, and the one caveat I’ll add to that which we may have talked a little bit about before, as well is you’ve got to add values to that statement, so their values probably baked into your mission statement but also baked into the organizational culture. So if our mission is to feed people who are experiencing homelessness or a lack of income, resources or we’re not just going to throw food out in a trough, right? You know that might be the best way or the most effective way to get as many people fed as possible. But that would be completely inconsistent with anybody’s values. Or so values and mission sort of go hand in hand, and focusing on that is really important. So not just financial oversight, the programmatic oversight the role of the board has got to look forward to. You’ve got to set the path with those values and mission for the organization’s future, not just looking behind you, but looking ahead, um, and so guiding the organization with those thoughts, acting as ambassadors, getting the feedback from the environment about what challenges and what opportunities may be out there. Those are all things the board can bring back to the executive and to the staff, sort of to help them do their best.

[00:06:44.34] spk_0:
And these are all very, uh, lofty. And and, um, I don’t want to say pedagogical, because that makes it sound like they’re not grounded, but But these are these are very we haven’t even talked about. You know how many board meetings you have to attend in a year. And how many subcommittees you have to serve on? You know, we haven’t gotten to that yet. You know, we’re talking about the the ambition, but it has to be centered. It’s It’s like you said. It’s the mission and values of the organization. I mean, if someone doesn’t respect those, then you’re not gonna get your best better board. You’re going to get a crappy person. Maybe it gives a lot of money, but ultimately, the ships are not sailing in the same direction with all the board members on each one.

[00:06:50.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And I loved your introduction about having the best Better board. Not this lackluster,

[00:07:13.34] spk_0:
lackluster better. But yeah, that’s for other podcasts, not on the radio. We don’t tolerate lackluster mediocrity, mediocre better boards that we want to. We want the best Better board. All right, so So it really it really does start with loft and ambition around around Mission and values.

[00:07:15.74] spk_1:
I definitely think so.

[00:07:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So now let’s drill down. I mean, in terms of what we’re expecting the board to do, you have to be up front with what these expectations are and that that happens in recruitment, right? Not not in their first board meeting. You should be explaining the expectations while you’re talking to somebody about joining the board. Not after they have joined.

[00:07:41.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. And too often. I see tony and I don’t know if you’ve experienced this as well, but somebody tries to recruit you onto the board and they go, It’s really not that much work, you know. It’s easy. Um, well, that’s going to get you a lackluster and maybe not even a better board. So,

[00:07:59.57] spk_0:
um,

[00:08:45.54] spk_1:
yeah, so it really is about setting expectations of Hey, you really believe in this mission and you have the same values that we’re trying to move forward with. Let’s do something great with this organization. Let’s make a great impact here. This is These are the kind of things that we expect of our board. This is how often we meet. You know, this is, um, what we expected each board member in terms of attendance and in terms of maybe making a meaningful contribution. I don’t like set amounts because that can hurt diversity and inclusive inclusion. But a meaningful donation to to the organization it could be in time if not in money or in other ways. But the expectations, I think, need to be spelled out in front before you actually invite somebody onto the board.

[00:09:00.24] spk_0:
And when you’re spelling them out, I mean, do you Do you like to see a writing a document with, you know, Please take this home with you and consider consider, as we’re having our conversations about about you being on the board, consider all these things like you give them a document to read or just a conversation.

[00:09:24.64] spk_1:
I think both tony. So I I you know, it may depend upon the organization how formal they get, but if you do actually have a recruiting sort of policy or procedure or recruiting committee in place, I like to put some things down in writing just to make sure that we’re all on the same page and letting people know what the organization’s expectations are and how often boards meet. And if there is a meaningful contribution, expectations all of those things up front. So if somebody is not interested, they can right away say, you know, this isn’t for me, you know, I like what you do. But it’s not for me and another person who might say I’m really interested in doing all of those things. You know? I’d love to be a part of your board,

[00:10:11.94] spk_0:
All right? So be upfront about expectations. There’s no point in in concealing the work and the requirements, only to have the person blindsided when it comes time around, when it comes time for each board member to make their annual contribution. And and And they didn’t know that it was supposed to be a meaningful gift or they didn’t know there was a board giving requirement of any sort. You know, when it comes time to assign committee. So I didn’t know I was gonna be on a committee. I thought I just came to board member board meetings four times a year. Now we have committee meetings to I didn’t know about that, and then you set yourself up for a disaster.

[00:10:46.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And if you if you start to um, the danger of it is is you don’t want to just sort of create this list of these are the things you have to do for the organization to run. You’ve got to always again relate it back to the mission and values. This is why we love to contribute as board members to the organization. Because this is what impact we can have. And this is the direction we see ourselves going to be able to have even greater impact. So you just keep reinforcing that message to get your best board members.

[00:10:55.74] spk_0:
You let me ask you a question. Are you Are you, uh Are you by any chance, playing with a pen or or anything?

[00:11:02.14] spk_1:
I am not rocking back and forth on my chair.

[00:11:06.44] spk_0:
And I know there’s, like, a little clicking, and I’m not. I know you’re not. I know you’re not typing like you’re not writing a document while we’re talking

[00:11:13.94] spk_1:
about you’re

[00:11:14.15] spk_0:
writing a client agreement or something.

[00:11:16.51] spk_1:
Typical things you expect from a lawyer, right?

[00:11:32.14] spk_0:
Yeah. You double bill your time, right. You get $800 an hour billed to clients at $400 an hour. You’re sitting in one’s office. You’re doing the work for the other. No. Okay. No, you’re not. Your hands are free, okay? I don’t know. There’s, like, little the mice are clicking or

[00:11:33.26] spk_1:
something. Maybe I’m rocking in my chair. I will try to hold back my enthusiasm.

[00:12:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, Alright. It doesn’t It doesn’t sound like that. Okay, Well, listeners, I can’t identify the sound of the but I’ll call it out because I’m not going to keep it quiet because we all hear it, so we’ll talk about it. Well, I don’t know what it is. This little tapping, clicking my mouse sound. Let’s talk about diversity. This should be a value. You and I have talked about this. We’ve had heartfelt conversations a couple of times about white male power and using that power and sharing power. And so let’s talk about diversity as a value for your board. How does that play into what we’re talking about? Your your best. Better board?

[00:14:50.74] spk_1:
Sure. You know, for the organizations who have responded to sort of this increasing understanding and awareness that diversity is an issue in various aspects, not just on board composition, but in the way our infrastructure as a country and even as the world is designed where, um, people who are in positions of power, no matter what race or gender or whatever, whatever they are tend to create systems that keep themselves in power. And so diversity has this great benefit of saying, Let’s take other lenses and look at what we’re doing. And look at the world that we’re in, um, for nonprofits, especially the world that’s directly impacting what we’re trying to do out there for. The people were trying to do it for what is impacting it, who is being affected the most, Um, and if that’s important to to organizations and their leaders, then I think they’ve really got to embrace diversity, not just by saying it, but by actually putting action steps into what they’re doing, Whether that’s going to be building it into true board diversity with inclusion. So not making people feel, you know, like they’re they’re just a simple tokens of taking a better picture but really being able to contribute to the power of the organization to address things that other people may not have seen. So, you know, I may identify with people who I relate to, but I may have very little understanding your perspective of people who are different from me who congregate in different circles who have different ideas. Um, and we have to think about all of those things, especially for serving a classic. Beneficiaries that are board members may be far away from. So if we have a board that’s more privileged, and we are helping a lot of people who don’t have some of the privileges that the board may have in terms of representation, how will we ever see the world through their lens? How will they understand? How will we understand where services are doing from their eyes? So trying to to get that diversity in an inclusive matter for purposes of increasing equity, I think, is a value that non profit should strive for.

[00:16:11.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break turn to communications relationships. They’ve got the relationships with the media outlets so that when you need to be in the news, when there’s a news item that you need to comment on, your voice needs to be heard. Turn to has the relationships to get you heard. It’s not cold calling. They have the existing relationships. They give it like gifts. You get a lot of gifts from cold calls. Do you get any gifts from cold calls? You get your best gifts from cold calls. If you’re doing cold call fundraising. No, you don’t. Of course, it’s the same with media. The relationships are in place. So when you want to be heard, turn to picks up the phones and leverages those relationships That way you’re gonna get heard. Turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Now back to build your best. Better board. Diversity has to be centered. Um, but And you wanted to go deeper than just like the board should reflect the community or the board should reflect those we serve. You mean you’re looking for something deeper than just reflecting an environment?

[00:18:17.04] spk_1:
I think so. So it is reflecting different perspectives as well. So I think traditionally, we thought of it as a skills based diversity. Like we need a lawyer. We need an accountant. We need a financial manager, a fundraiser on our board. And then we became all a little bit more woke and we said, Hey, we need racial diversity in our organizations. Um, but we didn’t say why that was or many of us didn’t say, why do we need racial diversity in our organizations? Is it simply to make it look like we embrace diversity and we take the better picture? Or is it because we want a true understanding from somebody else with a different lens and perspective? Who could tell us if there are gaps in our services for their communities? If there are gaps in the laws that are creating inequities that affect our mission as well? So the more we get these other perspectives, whether it be from a racial diversity angle from a disability angle, which I think is increasingly a really important thing to look at as we are facing an older population where disabilities are highly, you know, they make up a great percentage of our organizations and they’re kind of sort of the the unseen Group in many ways, um, we’re just getting started on addressing some of those concerns. But, um, the way we serve people can really miss many of those that are impacted, that that would be true beneficiaries of our service if they could access our services. But if we don’t make it accessible to them, then we just missed them, and that may be completely unintentional. But if we don’t have people who can identify and spot those things because they live it, um that would be, you know, short a shortfall in leadership. And that’s where we have to sort of address, Um, taking a look with a much broader lens and not just in our boards, but in our programming, in our staffing and just getting more awareness and bringing more lenses to what we’re doing.

[00:18:55.54] spk_0:
Let’s talk about bringing someone new to the board because we’re gonna be recruiting our new board members that are going to be part of our best better board. So now if we’ve recruited the right people, we need to socialize them to the organization. It’s more than I think. It’s more than just formal training. You know, the the organization has a culture. The board has a culture. Hopefully, they’re healthy. Let’s assume, but let’s take that. Let’s assume that these are healthy. Culture is not. Not. Cultures were trying to reverse, uh, you know, like intolerance or something. But healthy cultures. There’s a formal training and an informal training.

[00:20:26.74] spk_1:
I absolutely agree with you, so you know orientations can start even at recruitment. But once you decide that you want to elect somebody onto the board and they want to be part of the board and you elect them. I think it really is important now for them to be ingrained in what the organizations and the board culture is, what the priorities are getting a better sense of what the programs are. I’ll confess. I’ve been part of boards where I may not have a very good understanding of some of the programs. I get lost in some of, you know, again, the financial reports and maybe one program officer. You know, a year shows up and describes their program well, that that’s not really giving me a full sense of what the organization is doing. So more of that, um, is really going to be beneficial. Um, it will also help in sort of preventing there from being this wall between who the board is and who the staff and who are. The people that are actually implementing the program are other than the executive director, so boards often just meet with the executive director. But in an orientation or training, I think more deeply getting ingrained and that’s a board staff retreat. Joint retreats are good things. Board buddies and maybe a board staff buddy system could also

[00:20:31.34] spk_0:
is that like is that a mentoring board board buddy?

[00:20:53.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it could be partly mentoring, but I think the relationship really extends both ways, right? We can get more information from an outsider’s perspective to help the organization, and when they have fresh eyes, they may see different things. So instead of just saying, I know more than you, I’m going to mentor you. We can be buddies and learn from each other.

[00:20:56.64] spk_0:
And then you mentioned staff buddies, too.

[00:21:21.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I I don’t think it’s a bad idea for boards again to get more involved with their staff. We don’t want to micromanage. So there is this fine line there. But just getting an understanding from the staff about what they see in the organization, I think is important other than the executive director who may be the one who attends every board meeting. But if we just see one other staff member once a year, that really isn’t giving a sense of what is going on and what the organizational culture is. We might know what the board culture is, but do we really know what the organizational culture is?

[00:22:10.34] spk_0:
If it’s a staff buddy, it’s not only micromanagement, from the board member down. But then you also have to be conscious of the staff member trying to leverage a relationship with a board member like trying to do something or avoid doing something that the CEO may want or their vice president that they report to may want or something. You know, uh, that just it has to be managed. That’s all. Just You have to be conscious of the possibility of somebody exploiting and a relationship with the board members saying things that are inappropriate. The board members.

[00:22:52.14] spk_1:
I think this has to be designed with a consultant who really understands the area because you’re absolutely right. Tony. Yeah, if you if you aren’t careful, what you’re doing is you’re creating people going behind the executives back to make complaints to board members. And that’s not what the purpose is. So it might be controlled by saying, Hey, the board staff buddy thing is a meeting of the board and staff person in a joint group in a group where we’re all meeting in different corners of the room and just talking about certain specific topics so it can be regulated a little bit more carefully with rules of the game spelled out in advance. This is not a place to complain about employment issues. This is Yeah.

[00:23:04.34] spk_0:
Um, what do you like for board terms? What do you have? Advice? Two years? Three years? Should How many? How many years or how many terms should board members be allowed to continue on?

[00:24:00.64] spk_1:
Um, there’s there’s not, you know, one specific answer. I hate the lawyers. Answer. It depends. It does. But let me just say in a large number of cases, I like the 2 to 3 year term, both balancing a little bit of need for continuity and giving a fair expectation to a new board member of that. This is not just going to be a one year thing and you’re out. Um uh, and I like to have board terms to make sure that the board doesn’t become very insular and its thinking and in its diversity by keeping board members on perpetually until they’re ready to resign. It also makes it hard to ever remove a board member if people think that they have a right to serve on the board forever. So I kind of like board members not to be on board for, like maybe five or six years. Um, having said that, there are times

[00:24:02.67] spk_0:
when to not be on for five or six years

[00:24:04.99] spk_1:
to beyond that

[00:24:08.44] spk_0:
beyond. For five, like maybe two, 23 year terms, two year terms or 23 year terms of the most

[00:24:41.64] spk_1:
something. Something like that. Now, a lot of exceptions to that, if you have, if you had trouble building aboard and you have some great champions on the board. But those have been kind of the long term people who really know and really invested, and everybody else has been sort of lackluster. Um, I don’t think you should kick off your strongest board members, so you have to really think about that before you implement it. It is sort of an idealistic goal to have those term limits and, um, 2 to 3 year terms. But in other situations, I would say one size doesn’t fit. Also, take a look at your own board composition first before you make those type of decisions.

[00:25:19.94] spk_0:
What about in terms of socializing to the board, having social events for the board? Occasionally, Maybe it’s a dinner after a meeting. Um, I wouldn’t have cocktails before a meeting. But you could have cocktails after a meeting, you know, trying to get the board to get to know the members, to know each other outside the board. What else do you do? You go skiing, you go snowmobiling. You know, you’re a Fisher fisherman. You know things like that.

[00:25:26.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea. I’ve even had cocktails before boarding. So,

[00:25:31.63] spk_0:
uh, all right,

[00:26:10.84] spk_1:
but yes, um, for board members to trust each other and to be open to each other’s ideas and respect each other, the more you know each other, the more likelihood that that’s all going to happen and that you’re going to actually build the board culture rather than have people who don’t know each other who are trying to get out of the meeting, to watch a basketball game or be home with their family and sort of sit and say, This is my duty. For the next hour, I’m going to sit here, take notes and listen and try to do my job. But think of it just as a job. It’s going to be less productive. I think that if you come in and say I love these people that are kind of get to work with. And we’re trying to build something great so we can make change in the world or in our community. And so I really like coming to these events and getting a sense of it. Sometimes there’s, you know, those ice breaker things you know, for five or 10 minutes in front of a meeting that can be hit or miss and oftentimes a

[00:26:33.10] spk_0:
miss. How many people can you talk to in 10 minutes?

[00:26:35.46] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s another reason why you shouldn’t have too big a board as well. If you have 50 people at a to our board meeting, how many people are going to get to

[00:26:51.84] spk_0:
talk, right? That’s yeah, So I know that I know your answer is there’s no hard and fast answer for this one. But since you just let into it, share your advice on on board size,

[00:28:13.54] spk_1:
Yes. So my maybe not so helpful advice is not too few and not too many, um, that if we dive down a little deeper, you need, um or you’d like to have as many board members as you can utilize to help you govern the organization and help the organization and the board do its best job. So if that number is eight, or if that number is 15, that’s, you know that may be your ideal board size. It’s more important to me to get the right people on the board, um, rather than the right number. But if you can, if you have less than five and you’re a mature organization, I start to worry that you’re gonna lack that diversity in many different perspectives. Um, and if you’ve got more than 20 I have a feeling that a lot of board members feel like their contributions are not being heard because they don’t have an opportunity to sort of verbally contribute, especially if there are few dominant board members at meetings and in a two hour meeting, even 20 people are going to have a chance to say how much about how many issues it will be very few. So to really think about that, and you want to encourage board members to attend every board meeting, not just sort of half of the board meetings or think that they can take a free ride because you’ve got enough people to do that job. I’ll just help on a committee. You don’t want them to feel that way. You want them to feel very invested.

[00:28:31.24] spk_0:
So you feel like an expectation is you attend every board meeting either physically or virtually.

[00:28:33.84] spk_1:
I think that’s the expectation. And if people are missing, you know, one out of 41 out of five meetings, one out of 10 meetings, you know that might be acceptable for special circumstances. But you don’t want it to be a habit. I think you want to aspire to have everybody attend all of them.

[00:28:58.64] spk_0:
Okay, Um, what do you What do you feel like talking about board wise that we haven’t talked about yet? Let’s not go to how to get rid of a board member yet that’s that’s toward the end. What’s your what’s on your mind around your best? Better board?

[00:30:44.94] spk_1:
Well, we talked about kind of the expectations of what the board should do, but they think each director’s gotta ask that question of themselves as well. And maybe that’s part of the board. Recruitment and orientation package is kind of a list of however many 10 things that board members should aspire to do themselves, uh, to be part of this board and attend all meetings. We talked about that, but what else should they do? They should review financials regularly, so if they’re getting a financial before each meeting, they should review them. They should know that they are expected to ask questions that might be at the board meeting or that might be before the board meeting. But if they’re getting information aboard package in advance, which they should get, um, about the matters that are going to be up for discussion at the board, they should know that they should review it first. And if they have any questions, they should share it with the group. Um, and that doesn’t happen enough, in my opinion, that there are these questions and everybody saves it for the board meeting, and then they run out of time to discuss all the issues that they want to. So just having it kind of on an email sort of mass email, the board package comes out on email, and people can ask questions about it so that everybody gets an advanced preview of what some of the issues are before you go into that board meeting and then start to discuss things a little bit more detail. Some of those things might need a little research to be answered to. The executive might have to talk to an accountant or a lawyer or someone else and say, Let’s find out what the answer is and you know that does away with that issue even before the meeting, if you can share that information. So that’s another thing to just think about.

[00:31:35.04] spk_0:
What about managing the board? Uh, some. Some larger organizations have a board liaison where that’s probably not most of our listeners with someone who’s devoted to the board. I think that’s more like university style, big university style. But there doesn’t have to be a lot of staff support for the board. I mean, not only the you mentioned getting the board packages to them at least a week. I’d say in advance, maybe a week or 10 days in advance, something like that. But it goes beyond that. Board members have questions. Have these questions that you’re suggesting they ask in advance of meetings? Um, committee work has to be supported. How do we How do we make sure that we’re giving the board members the support that they need.

[00:33:00.24] spk_1:
Yeah, and it’s a great balance. Is it? Well, it’s a great question, but it is a tough one to answer because of the balance that you have to think of. You want the board to be informed so that they can be of help to the organization. But you don’t want the board to put on so many demands upon the staff that they’re really hurting the staff’s ability to do the work of the organization, the programmatic work that’s needed. So there is a little bit of balance there. I know many staff members and executives hate kind of preparing the board for the board meeting because it may take so much work. Sometimes it’s because they’re trying to justify what they are doing to the board, because the board may come in with a little bit of a negative skew about, you know, prove to us that you’re doing good work of some kind. That may be the perception that the staff is getting. I don’t think any boards are overtly saying that, but I feel that staff can come into it a little bit defensively in preparation of board materials rather than this is an ally of ours. This should be the strongest ally that we have this board group. Let’s give them information and questions for them so that they can help us do our job better. Um, and that takes time. But how many staff are involved with the executive? Certainly is meeting with them. That probably goes without saying if there is a financial person there other than the executive, that person should probably have frequent contact.

[00:35:45.54] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take to the podcast. Pleasantries. They gotta go out. That’s what we start with. Plan giving accelerator that’s coming. The podcast. Pleasantries. Uh, I’m enjoying the nostalgia of sending these again. I’ve missed it. I guess I I ignored it for a while. My my mistake. I’m sorry about that. Pleasantries to you, our podcast listener. Well, you individually. But there’s more than just one of you out there. There’s over 13,000 of you out there. So, to the podcast, listeners pleasantries. You know, I’m grateful. I am. I’m glad you’re with us. I’m glad you’re learning that non profit radio helps you helps your organization open conversations, take action steps, open discussions with the board. Your CEO, your vice president, Whoever it is, you bring stuff too. I’m glad it helps you do all that. And I hope there’s the action steps to I’m sure there are. There is. I’m sure there are the action steps. I’m sure there are. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for being with me. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Each of you plan giving accelerator that is the online membership community that I created to help you get your plan giving program started and growing. It’s a membership that you join for a year, and I teach you month by month lesson by lesson, Step by step. Everything you need to get your planned giving program started and growing. If you’re not doing planned giving and you would like to be, is it on your to do list? Have you, like so many folks? Say to me, Had this on your mind for a couple of years. You can get it done. You can get it started to get the initial thing started, and that’s done and then the program continues. I mean, the program doesn’t finish after a year. You continue your playing giving program indefinitely, of course, but you’ll get plan giving off your to do list. You get the going done. Your started 2021. The next class starts April 1st, all the info on how to pick my brain and have me teach you planned giving starting up step by step. Is that planned? Giving accelerator dot com. Okay, that is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for build your best better board with Jean Takagi.

[00:36:41.93] spk_1:
I didn’t mean to downplay the role of somebody from programming coming in speaking to the board once in a while, I think I wanted to say that that was insufficient for the board to know what’s going on programmatically. But having people come in a little bit more regularly, or at least providing materials to the board more regularly about the program’s impact, you know, and that could be through stories as well. I’m kind of like in fundraising make the board engaged with what the organization is doing programmatically and invested in doing more to help the organization do better with its programs, either serve more people are doing in a better way. You want to create that connection so that the board rallies around you and actually helps you rather than just again just providing oversight and saying We want to make sure everything is lawful. Give us all this information to make, you know, make sure that we can do that. You want to do get more from your board.

[00:37:26.53] spk_0:
I like the idea of regular presentations at board meetings from from program staff. Maybe the 1st 15 minutes of a board meeting every time is from some different employee. Maybe maybe it’s not a unique pro, maybe not different programs every time. But I like the idea of devoting some board time each each meeting to to programs to what our work is, but but not being acquainted by the CEO. But having someone who’s on the ground doing the work answering, I think that would be a real fertile ground for questions to from the board and provides ongoing training.

[00:37:28.53] spk_1:
I think so, too, and maybe even somebody who is a beneficiary of the services

[00:37:32.89] spk_0:
beneficiary to yes

[00:37:51.23] spk_1:
to say Hey, you know you get a chance to speak to the board to because we want to know what you feel about our programs and our organization and how you’ve been treated. So, um, I think those things are good, and I I again think, tony, that will just energize aboard to want to do more if they feel more connected to what the organization is actually doing and not just reading about it and listening to the executive tell them about it.

[00:38:15.32] spk_0:
What about that important CEO board chair relationship that should be very collegial? It should be supportive. What what’s your advice around for? The CEO is probably mostly CEOs listening, although we do have board members listening. But probably we have more CEOs than we do board chairs. So what’s your advice there for them? Although

[00:39:07.82] spk_1:
I’ll say that probably a fair number of CEOs have actually acted in the capacity of a board chair as well and other organizations, so they may understand some of the roles from both sides. I think my advice is what you have just said, as well as to have this collegial relationship and develop one where there’s one of trust where the CEO is not afraid to go to the board and say, I’ve got some bad news. Um, I’m looking for some guidance on this. If the CEO is always about, um, my pay or my job security can be affected by telling bad news to the board chair. So I’m going to try to, uh,

[00:39:09.52] spk_0:
show hide it, make it sound, not as bad as it is not. Be completely honest, etcetera.

[00:39:26.32] spk_1:
Yeah, I think of what you know. For profit, boards of directors may say to their shareholders in public companies, Right, like you want to pose the best view of that organization as possible. I don’t think that’s a healthy relationship for nonprofit board to have its executive,

[00:39:37.42] spk_0:
and and that should be frequent communication to I mean, shouldn’t shouldn’t the CEO feel comfortable picking up the phone and seeking the advice of the board chair?

[00:40:20.31] spk_1:
I think so. And if it’s not the board chair, I I think it’s okay at times. So your board culture is going to have to allow for this, but for them to pick up the phone and talk to another board member, So I’m when I serve on the board. I’m sometimes the only lawyer on the board. I want the CEO to be able to talk to me. I’m not going to be their legal counsel, But I might have a point of view. Or I might spot an issue if they feel like, Hey, is this something we need to talk to our lawyer about? Maybe our board chair wouldn’t be able to answer that question. But maybe I would as a board member. So, yeah, I like the CEO of being able to reach out to multiple board members for for different issues. Yeah,

[00:40:48.21] spk_0:
all right. Should we should we talk about terminating board members the topic before before their time is, Do so Let’s say, you know, a three year term and they’ve been on for a year, and they’re obstreperous, lackluster, unkind. They don’t belong. Let’s just for whatever reason, they don’t belong.

[00:43:09.10] spk_1:
Sure. What do we do? Yeah, it’s a real tough one, right. So, um, sometimes you have to look at it holistically. So oftentimes I get a call and that situation will arise. But it will turn out that that board members also the biggest donor to the organization right now you’ve got to think a little more diplomatically and strategically about how to do this. Um um So again, not one size fits all But one method that some organizations have used has been to say, Let’s talk with this board member and try to find the best role for them in the organization and see if we can move them off the board but into this other role, whether it be advisory, um, or whether it be in an, uh in an honorary position for being, you know, uh, something emeritus. So give them a fancy title. Ask them to show up at fundraising events, um uh, or to to speak to two foundations when you go out with them to do a pitch, maybe that’s where their strength is. And maybe there’s enough there of their passion for the mission and for the organization and what it does. While they don’t have passion for doing the work of a director in a strategic and diplomatic way, they may still have passion for the mission of the organization. And let’s try to take advantage of that, um, and use it in a way where nobody will use sort of the Asian mentality of nobody loses face right, like so everybody gets to keep their dignity and look good. But let’s try to take advantage of not having that person be disruptive on the board anymore. And if that person isn’t giving you much of a contribution in any way, then once in a while removal is an unpleasant but sometimes necessary option. And boards may have to decide that again. Uh, they’re going to ask somebody where they’re actually going to vote to tell somebody, um, that their services as a director are no longer needed, Um, but that has to also be done diplomatically. You have to be careful of alleging reasons for doing that because that could get you involved in a defamation lawsuit from that person if they’re upset with it and litigious so carefully.

[00:43:20.20] spk_0:
So this should be something that’s in the bylaws, then removal of a board member. Yeah, you need to have a documented process.

[00:44:17.09] spk_1:
I think that’s right, tony. A lot of, um, boards have eliminated that from the bylaws because you see that as a negative. But then they would default to the code, right, and they’re not going to usually look up what the code says about removal. It has to be done in a certain way, and in some cases it can get a little bit complicated. If you have a voting membership structure like for certain charities, they might have members who actually elect their board members. It’s more common in trade associations and homeowners associations things like that. But some charities have voting members, and removal, then becomes a lot more complicated. But having it having the procedure in your bylaws at least gives you kind of like the encyclopedia. Look at how to do this properly without feeling like it’s going to be too hard. We can’t do it and just live with it.

[00:44:26.89] spk_0:
I’m not familiar with this model you just described because you and you said it’s some five oh one C threes have elected board members. So

[00:44:28.78] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:44:29.71] spk_0:
so it has. The board has voted members on and can only remove them,

[00:45:22.59] spk_1:
actually the opposite way. So members elect the board members, so the members are responsible for electing and potentially removing board members. So you might think of that more in terms of like a union or a professional association or homeowners association, where all the homeowners elect the board. If they don’t like the board, they’ll remove them and put somebody else on to that board. So some charities are also structured that way. And that was to sort of been seen as a more democratic process of ensuring that the board stays responsive to what the members think. The mission is supposed to be, um, for smaller organizations. I generally don’t recommend it because it’s more costly. It’s much more difficult to manage and administer. Um, but nevertheless, I would say about 5 to 10% of the charities that we run into small charities we run into are structured that way.

[00:45:32.49] spk_0:
Not ideal, though, but they’re trying to be democratic. And

[00:45:36.99] spk_1:
that’s right.

[00:46:19.48] spk_0:
Okay, I see. All right. Well, that Yeah, that conversation to to hope that opening that conversation with the director to be removed is is hard. Maybe maybe the maybe the board member themselves themselves, uh, maybe the person. Maybe they can’t find the right pronoun. Maybe that person isn’t happy in the role either. That’s a possibility. It could be. You know, you could sort of open the conversation with it. Seems like, you know, this isn’t as you were suggesting, and I’m kind of putting a few things together. It seems like this isn’t quite the right role for you. You don’t seem happy as a board member. Uh, you know, you could open the conversation that way in trying to find something else to offer

[00:46:43.88] spk_1:
them. I think that’s a great way often to frame that that situation. I actually wrote an article for the nonprofit Quarterly. I think called something like 10 Reasons Why a director made gracefully want to resign from their organization, um, board. And so, yeah, framing it from their perspective and what they’re not getting is probably a good way to start it.

[00:46:59.58] spk_0:
I thought of something else before we wrap up. What do you think about junior boards, you know, maybe have an advisory role? There’s sort of a training improving ground for future board members, whatever you call it, might. It might just be the advisory board or something. But what do you think of that? That having, uh, that in your organization,

[00:47:26.78] spk_1:
I think you’ve done well. It works. Um, really Well, it raises potential future board members and gives you an introduction to the organization. Rather than bringing somebody straight into the board. They have a chance to be part of whatever you want to call it an advisory committee or, uh, the junior board. I would be careful with the name, depending upon who you’re planning to put on it.

[00:47:30.99] spk_0:
So junior board is not so good. All right.

[00:47:33.37] spk_1:
Unless it’s for, you know, unless you’re putting minors on it for advisory positions. Okay. Okay.

[00:47:44.08] spk_0:
But advisory, an advisory board advisory committee. And and it gets to be seen as a stepping stone for some folks to the board membership.

[00:48:04.17] spk_1:
Yeah, and to offer thought leadership from different perspectives. Um, so I think that’s good. But if you’re trying to increase diversity through an advisory border, Junior. But I would say Be very careful to make it not look like it is of less importance. And that’s why these people were put on that.

[00:48:54.37] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, right. Right. So all your yes, all your all the folks of color and other underrepresented groups are on the advisory board. Yeah, that’s well, that’s a sham. Alright, That’s right. Exactly. That’s inhumane. Alright. Yeah, I’m surprised you thought of that, Gene. You’re well. You see the good and the bad. All right, you’ve It’s not that you thought of it. You’ve seen it. You’ve seen it. I guess it’s It’s out there somewhere. All right. Thank you, Jeanne. Outstanding. Outstanding advice. Jeanne Takagi, our legal contributor. You’ll find them at nonprofit law blog dot com. You can find him at Columbia University if you’re a member of their student body in, uh, what is it? The nonprofit nonprofit management program at Columbia?

[00:49:01.07] spk_1:
Yep.

[00:49:07.17] spk_0:
Okay, so you’ll find him there. You also find him at neo law group dot com and you’ll find him at G T A K at G Tech. Thank you very much, Gene.

[00:49:12.87] spk_1:
Thanks, tony. Been a pleasure.

[00:50:05.17] spk_0:
My pleasure. As always. Thanks. Next week, I’m asking you to trust me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for January 11, 2021: PPP 2.0

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: PPP 2.0

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns with the ins-and-outs of the second round of Paycheck Protection Program help for your nonprofit. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 

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[00:01:50.04] spk_1:
non Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite heh abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of Vibe bro Sis, if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show P P P to zero Jean Takagi returns with the ins and outs of the second round of paycheck protection program. Help for your non profit. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney at Neo. The non profit and exempt organizations law firm Antonis Take two. I’m still optimistic, were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Prospect to donor, Simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant demo and a free month. What a pleasure! Genuine pleasure to welcome back Jean Takagi. You know him, for God’s sake, but let’s do the formalities he deserves. Gina is our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law blogged dot com, and there’s the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non profit lawyer. He’s a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com, and he’s at G Tack g T a k. Welcome back, Jean. Happy New Year.

[00:01:52.04] spk_0:
Happy New Year, tony. Great to be back with you. It’s

[00:01:54.34] spk_1:
good to have you. Thank you. It’s outstanding, lawyer. Now, that’s five years old now.

[00:01:59.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I think that that probably has to go down the wayside.

[00:02:25.54] spk_1:
Take that. Actually, Is it more embarrassing now then? It always has done What? What’s he done in the past five years? Exactly. I’ll take that. Alright, we’ll take that out from starting next time. All right, Um, so the paycheck protection program is is back version 2.0. Um, what what’s your what’s your overview of it? The p p p re ducks.

[00:04:28.64] spk_0:
So it’s a good thing, of course, and it comes in sort of within the broader context of a kn appropriations act that’s to help stimulate the economy. And we know how hard co vid and, um, all of the shutdowns that have been caused by the coronavirus, all of the health care issues we have presented a huge challenge for our economy and for the nonprofit sector as a whole. I think back in August, The Washington Post had written some article that suggested one third of nonprofits could ultimately shut down at the end of this crisis. I think that might have been a little overblown. Hopefully, the vaccine is going to contribute. Thio Um, the development of several vaccines contributes to a little bit more of a recovery, but we still seem to have a long slog through this. And that’s why more money needed to get out to stimulate the economy and particularly nonprofits who are impacted two ways. One by just less money coming in. Less revenues, less donations. Andi the greater need for so many people who need the service’s of non profit. So the good part of the second kind of draw of the P P P loans is that there’s more money been made available. Um, it’s still not enough in my personal opinion, and hopefully we’ll see more, but 11 of the really good things about this second draw, the P P P loans is that you can go in for a double dip now, So if you are a kn organization. One of the I believe it’s 180,000 non profits that applied and received the first round of loans. Who came, actually, which came into parts? Um,

[00:04:29.30] spk_1:
180,000. Sounds low to me. I’m not I’m saying that I heard it was more. But of the 1.51 point six million or so only 180,000.

[00:04:40.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I believe that’s the number that that I I have that that actually received loans

[00:04:45.13] spk_1:
12% or something like that.

[00:04:47.94] spk_0:
Yeah, on dhe. You know, so out of those, the original set of loans under the Cares Act on day one of the amendments to that so you could only come in once, so you get one loan out of them. You can’t go back in for another loan. Um, so this second draw actually allows a nonprofit that took out a loan, used it up, or is going to use it up to come back in for a second loan. And that’s really important with the covert crisis dragging out.

[00:05:47.84] spk_1:
So, um, let’s see, just I know you You introduced a second raw, but let’s let’s talk about the folks who maybe did not get a p p p low in the first time. So that so for nonprofits, That s so they they certainly are eligible this time to, um, let’s talk about like, you have to have fewer than 500 employees, which I’m sure all our listeners do. Um What who else is what? Like what else you have to do to be eligible for for a loan first time through.

[00:05:50.64] spk_0:
So I think that the numbers actually 300 or fewer on that

[00:05:54.93] spk_1:
isn’t that for the, isn’t it? For the second draw?

[00:06:59.74] spk_0:
Yeah, I think this whole thing is sort of called. I’m sorry. You’re right, tony. So that that refers to the second draw for for, um, organizations that have received a P P P loan. So it’s 300 or fewer. The original draw was 500 or fewer. Um, and demonstrating at least a 25% reduction in gross revenues between the same quarters in 2020 and 2021. So you took a look at the first quarter. You measure first quarter versus first quarter, second quarter versus second quarter. You can’t mix and match. So the same quarter in two years if you experienced at least 25% reduction in gross revenues. And that’s how you had reported in the 1990 year gross revenues figure, then you would be eligible for for that, that second draw. And I believe that’s the standard for the first draws. Well, um, and it’s subject to a maximum of 2.5 times. The average monthly payroll costs up to $2 million in this round.

[00:07:10.94] spk_1:
Okay, Okay. And those payroll costs, you can choose, right? A period between eight weeks and 24 weeks. Correct that. You want that you want to be compensated for And that and, uh okay, that you wanna be compensated for, right? So, between to two months and and six months,

[00:07:26.84] spk_0:
right, starting on the origination of the loan. Okay. Yeah.

[00:07:37.44] spk_1:
Okay. But but to be eligible, you have to demonstrate a decrease in gross revenue of 25% or more. Correct. Incomparable quarters. Okay. Okay. Now for folks who again, this first draw the first time through it at this point so far, um, they should be going to their bank. Right? You need a bank. That’s that’s s B A Small Business association approved, but it seems like your bank will be the place to start at least looking for where you can find a lender.

[00:07:59.74] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s that’s the place to go to get the application forms. And yes, the S B A operates the loan through the sort of approved banks that

[00:08:09.88] spk_1:
the bank. Yeah, And in my experience, if your bank isn’t an S b a approved lender, I had heard that your your bank can help you find one. You can also just search for them in your area. But you might be able to get a referral from your own bank if they’re not a S B A lender.

[00:08:28.06] spk_0:
Yeah, and you can, I think, find that out on the Web as well. If

[00:09:18.64] spk_1:
it’s time for a break, turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times You wanna be in papers like that? What about CBS Market Watch? The Chronicle of Philanthropy. Turn two has the relationships with outlets like these. So when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving non profit trends for philanthropy, they call turn to turn two calls, you turn hyphen two dot CEO now back to P P p. To point out now all the all the money you get, even though it’s called paycheck Protection Program does not have to go to a paycheck. There’s other things that you can spend what up to 40% on

[00:10:53.34] spk_0:
that’s That’s exactly the number tony. So 60% has to be payroll related expenses that that you are using the funds for but up to 40% could be used for other things. And in the first round of the Cares Act sort of payroll protection plan, program loans or forgivable loans, they had things like mortgage, certain qualified mortgage payments and rent and utility expenses. They didn’t offer a lot more. So this round, this second draw, whether you’re taking it for the first time or not, I’m just going to refer to it is the second draw. Okay, he BP loans. You can use it for four other covered expense areas, and they include operations expenditures, which sort of refer to software and cloud computing service’s for businesses and have to do with payroll H R. Accounting all of those things. So if you need that, you can use it for those things property damage costs if they happened in 2020 and they were not covered by insurance and that might be related to looting or other public disturbances. UM, covered supplier costs which are for purchase of goods that are essential to the operations of the business, generally made pursuant to a contract that was in effect prior to the covered period of the eight or 24 weeks. Ah, nde covered worker protection expenditures, so that’s really important. So that includes the PP, eat of personal protective equipment, face masks and everything else, and also operating and capital expenditures that air related to meeting worker or customer safety requirements. So if you need to put barriers up, you know those plexi barriers between things like that,

[00:11:22.27] spk_1:
maybe upgrade your h v a c so that Z Okay,

[00:11:23.04] spk_0:
okay, so you want to take a look at what the requirements are in your area. If you need to spend on that, um, this is also going to be available for those type of expenses up to 40% so again, 60%. This is mostly focused on payroll in keeping people in jobs. Andi organizations operational, but 40% realizing that you do have some other costs that you need to have to be able to run the business. It’s not just employees, so this was a little bit more thoughtful in sort of creating that that those uses for P p p loan funds.

[00:12:39.04] spk_1:
Let’s talk about forgiveness because that’s a big advantage to these p p p loans that if you do it right, your loan could be 100% forgiven if you do it right. So what do you have to do right now? I know we don’t know about, like, forgiveness forms that even for the first round. I mean, I in my business got a P p p low in the first round, and I’m still waiting for guidance on forgiveness. It Z S B A has gone back and forth many times, and so my bank doesn’t even have the forms ready yet for forgiveness from the first loans, which I got like in March or April or something. So but there are guidelines about what you’re supposed, how you’re supposed to spend to be eligible for the give nous for the forgiveness when the forms and the process do ultimately come out. So what’s What’s what is s b a saying there,

[00:12:56.34] spk_0:
So yeah, first, just a comment on whether we’re going to see those forms out soon

[00:13:04.68] spk_1:
so we could get the loan forgiveness from from March or April. Yeah,

[00:13:09.24] spk_0:
yeah, eso It’s been a long time. The S b A actually has some forms out, and they did come up with a little bit of guidance in December. But the individual financial institutions, the banks haven’t yet developed all of their own forms on DSO. Yes, it’s a combination of looking at both of those forms, and we haven’t seen much happening there across all banks. Yeah, so that I think will be coming pretty soon, but we haven’t seen it just yet.

[00:14:03.94] spk_1:
I guess I should be kinder to the S B A to I think overall, they managed a new emergency program pretty well. Eso you know, clearly their priority was getting the money out, not worrying about the forgiveness at the back end. So, uh, not trying to be harsh against SB A. They’re working under short deadlines and people in great need, So they focused on what’s more important getting money out. All right, so what do they say about how you should spend if you wanna have your loan forgiven.

[00:14:08.44] spk_0:
So one of the things is what we talked about earlier. About that 60 40 split. Well, that is the requirement for loan forgiveness. So if you don’t want the loan to be forgiven, you don’t actually have to look at that 60 40 split, right? You could just pay back the loan at the interest rate, which I believe is 1%. Um, but I think nonprofits have taken out this loan, have taken it out with the very intent that it be forgivable loan and to use it for those purposes. So in order for it to be forgivable against, 60% must be used for payroll related expenses and 40% for those other covered categories that I mentioned. So, you know, the mortgage, the rent utilities and those four new categories that came out with this second draw that would apply only to the second draw amount. So amounts coming out of this 900 billion that that was part of this new act that came off this new relief act. Um,

[00:15:25.04] spk_1:
you wanna make sure you keep your documentation so you can prove when it does come time for the forgiveness application, because you have to apply that you can prove that you spent the money on the bona fide expenses that are allowed. And you didn’t spend more than six more than 40% on the on the non payroll. Correct? Yeah, to be documentation.

[00:16:20.94] spk_0:
And what I’m hearing back is from the first application, which you’ll soon see tony. The reports that they asked for are pretty complicated on dhe tough, and they’ve gone back and forth on like what to include and what not to include. But it can be pretty tough. The good thing is about this second draw. This new act that that was signed into law the just a few weeks ago at the end of the year is that if the loan was for 150,000 up to $300,000 or less, it’s going to be a one page one. So they’re going to make it super easy, and it’s really gonna you know, they haven’t released what that form exactly looks like. But they said what they’re going to ask for is the number of employees that you were able to retain the estimated amount spent on payroll costs. So did you meet that 60% basically, the total loan value and an attestation? So you basically you’re signing saying, I attest that I complied with all the requirements of the P P P loan program. So rather than documenting every single thing out, if it’s $150,000 or less, get most of the listeners. They’re probably going to fall into that category. Um, they’re going to be able to do with the one page form. But there are several larger nonprofits that they’re gonna have to file the more complicated forms. And to get you know, to your point, really good records really critically important for this because you do want to get this loan. Forget

[00:19:54.44] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony’s Take two. Yes, I’m still optimistic. Even after what happened last Wednesday at our nation’s capital and the Capital building I still am. The optimism is for the whole year. It’s not just for the first 10 days, so I still feel good. Look, they’re already started arresting people for the trespassing and the unlawful entry into the Capitol. They’ve already arrested folks. So and there’s gonna be many more coming, so that gives a little bit of short term, uh, solace. I think that people face justice for their transgressions against our capital. But beyond that, beyond that, I just look forward to new years and I am feeling good that the country will be in a better place. The world will be in a better place this year. Then it was last year 2020. I mean, think about the pandemic to look how much further we’ve come in. Just what? The past 4 to 6 weeks with vaccines rolling out. Okay, Not as fast as they were supposed to have, but vaccines air rolling out. I think it’s gonna be a good year. 2021. I say. It’s gonna be a good year. That is tony Steak, too. Let us return to P P. P to zero with Jean Takagi. There’s something that you and I talked about, um, earlier in 2020 when the first paycheck protection program loans were offered was it was a little complicated Then if you had gotten another kind of loan, the e ideal economic injury disaster loan and you if you gotta an advance on that, which I’m not sure those advances really went out the way they were supposed to, but they were supposed to be, like, up to $10,000. You get in, like, within three days for the e i d l. But I know in my own case, I applied for that. But, um, didn’t didn’t it didn’t end up really being needed. And it was nowhere near the three days. Um, it was more like three months, and it all just came at 11 time. That’s a separate. But so that was related to you know that advance if you if you got it was related to paycheck protection program forgiveness, the S B A. Wasn’t gonna allow you toe be forgiven on ah e ideal loan advance. Now, you don’t have to worry about that anymore, right?

[00:19:57.31] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s one really good thing about this

[00:20:01.09] spk_1:
two minutes set up for something that doesn’t matter anymore.

[00:21:00.74] spk_0:
But it is important because some some of your listeners may be out there thinking, Oh, I can’t You know I can’t get this. Um uh, advance if I want loan forgiveness on Now it’s like, No, you can you can get both. So that’s really important that they repeal that former restriction on DSO. Now you can get both. Just a reminder for that the ideal stands for economic injury disaster loan on dhe It is alone, except when it’s called an ideal grant, Um, or advance. In which case, the idea is is that you’re going toe Qualify for it If you’re located in a low income community, you suffered an economic loss greater than 30%. So this is a little bit more stringent. And the second drop TPP loans

[00:21:04.31] spk_1:
25%.

[00:21:05.09] spk_0:
Yeah, and the same requirement that you employ not more than 300 employees. So it’s it’s a different program. I misspoke earlier and talked about $900 billion being the P P. P program, but that 900 billion was actually the total

[00:21:19.48] spk_1:
that was the fullest

[00:21:47.34] spk_0:
package. Yeah, eso of that 284 billion roughly was for the P P P program. Second draw loans that were coming out again, Whether you’re taking it for the first time or second time again on 20 billion for the e I. D. L grants those ran out very quickly on DSP. A page has still not been updated. Web page has still not been updated. So it will currently say we’ve run out. We don’t have these available, but we’re waiting for the update as a result of this new act, so you have to just keep looking for it.

[00:21:56.04] spk_1:
Okay? Okay. The money is there for the the ideal grants,

[00:22:10.54] spk_0:
but it’s 20 billion versus 284 billion for the P P P second draw loan. So it is a smaller pool of money. So just toe, be aware that that yeah, you’ll have to go in pretty quick if you’re going to qualify

[00:22:21.04] spk_1:
in the second drawer. Loans got, um, expanded with 501 C six is now now eligible. Which they weren’t before.

[00:22:31.34] spk_0:
Yeah, you know, I think non profit that’s really wanted, like a za sector. They said, why is it restricted? Just to 501 c three. There’s lots of other types of nonprofits that air doing important work here that are going to get tremendously impacted and small businesses are allowed toe sort of get the benefits of these loans. What about like chambers of commerce, especially for, like small regional areas that could really impact multiple businesses, and not just one or organizations that are focused on the travel business industry. So if you’ve got a trade association of related to travel, they can impact a broader industry and to lose them, um, could be really detrimental thio an entire industry and not just to a single business. So the idea was, let’s get other nonprofits involved or eligible as well. So 501 c six. That was kind of the lobbying for the 501 c six is specifically on. Yes, they become eligible for this P p p round A ZX well, but they have some of the same requirements, so they can’t employ more than 300 persons. But they also have some lobbying limitations. Um, that air there, so s

[00:23:42.90] spk_1:
so if you’re a C six, you gotta look closely.

[00:24:08.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and one other thing just about this and I won’t go into the details of C six. But generally speaking, um, the government said, if you are a lobbying or political like organization, that was principally into lobbying and political activities. A lot of five but one C four organization social welfare organizations would fall into that category. Um, then you are not eligible for the PP, and that remains still a restriction on participating in this. So the 51 C six is that that participate? They really they’re all sorts of lobbying number restrictions that are involved. But generally speaking, if you’re principally a lobbying organization or political action organization, you will not qualify for these

[00:24:31.91] spk_1:
and see fours are not eligible.

[00:24:34.24] spk_0:
Yeah, so by and large, yeah.

[00:24:54.84] spk_1:
Okay. There was a lot in the press about the deductibility of the expenses that you use the money for. I’m talking now about the the 40% That’s non payroll. Um, initially, you weren’t allowed to deduct what used to be deductible if you spent P p p money on it, which was kind of, Ah, a clawback. You lost the deduction. They have the money was forgiven if you did it right, but you had a but you couldn’t deduct the expenses that you spent it on. So it was like it was like giving and then taking that’s that’s been changed. Those expenses, air now deductible.

[00:26:23.41] spk_0:
Yeah. Although let’s sort of frame it to tony that most nonprofits, that we’re talking about our tax exempt in the first place so they don’t have to worry about deductions except with respect to their unrelated businesses. And so, for taxable and for taxable entities. Yeah, Or if, if a non profit does have unrelated business income resulting coming from a specific business and that gets a little bit more complicated, it is really important to know that if you receive the P P p loan and you spent money on some of those expenditures that you can actually deduct from it. So the rationale before is that the government is giving you money so you shouldn’t be able to spend it and then get another tax benefit of a deduction with it, because the government just granted that money to you. But overall, in terms of stimulating the economy, it was just too popular. And just to important to the overall goal, Thio restrict that from happening. So yes, now you can get a P P p loan and you can spend it on legitimate business expenses within that sort of that that range of qualified expenditures that we talked about and you could get a deduction for those things as well. So yeah, good point.

[00:27:39.34] spk_1:
Thank you. Thanks for clarifying to time for our last break. Quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our executive team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising toward their goals. Sounds exciting. That drives has allowed us to take those key relationships and bring them to a deeper level. End quote. That’s Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is prospect to donor Simplified. Get the free demo from DOT. For listeners, there’s also a free month. Go to the listener landing page at tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for P P p two. What else? What do you wanna talk about? Tpp Wise way didn’t cover.

[00:28:11.94] spk_0:
Well, I thought I’d talk about something a little bit fun just to start off with E. Sure. So there’s the three martini lunch deduction, Um, which is a kn interesting deduction. Um, but basically, you know, I think it’s been since the eighties, where that if you had a business expense and this is again mostly for for profits. But it’s one that puts a little bit of a smile on my face, although there’s some serious consequences that can flow from it. But

[00:28:14.03] spk_1:
we’ll go ahead and smile. Gene, allow yourself to smile. Yeah, you have to qualify your given unqualified smile.

[00:28:31.04] spk_0:
So since the mid eighties, I think if you are I in our separate businesses tony took somebody out, took each other out for lunch, You know, 50% would be deductible if it was a legitimate business lunch. Um Well, um, President Trump and the outgoing administration really felt important to give back um, Thio 100% deductibility. Eso business lunch is going to be deductible up to 100% for two years s. So this is sort of received the nickname the three martini lunch deduction. Um and yeah, I mean, there implications to this because obviously this will have a tax impact. And I believe the final document that put into the PDP loan in the whole stimulus package in late December with somewhere around 15,000 pages, So I can’t imagine that somebody has read all of this yet. Um, but the impact the economic impact of this will eventually be sort of a judge. But this could cost, you know, the government a billion or $2 billion in lost revenues. So it does have implications there.

[00:30:00.14] spk_1:
Can this also have impact for, um, employee of a non profit? Who lets, say, does a ah business lunch and their employer does not reimburse that expense. So then when they’re deducting, they can then deduct that expense if they itemize, and it would now be fully deductible instead of only 50% deductible. Is that is that true for non profit employees?

[00:30:32.64] spk_0:
I don’t believe tony. So generally I think, you know, the best interest would would be for the non profit to reimburse, employ. Um, but if the employee is going thio state that it was, ah necessary business expense, it’s going to be a little bit more difficult. Thio do so for them. And I don’t think that they would get um

[00:30:33.23] spk_1:
Yeah, like if they took a donor, Suppose they took a donor to a lunch?

[00:31:18.14] spk_0:
Yeah, for that again, I would think it would be the nonprofits responsibility. Thio to to reimburse them if they individually took them out. I’m just wondering how that business expense would work out where they don’t have a sole proprietorship. You know, as I think about it a little bit more, tony, I guess the rules would still apply. So it is just a question about whether they could get the deduction in the first place. They can get the deduction in the first place, and it’s possible that the 100% rule might apply. But I’m not sure that it would in this case, because it’s not necessarily their business expense. So I don’t think I have anything definitive for you, but it’s kind of like, you know, the auto expense deduction. So if you know if your business

[00:31:28.31] spk_1:
car for business purposes right, you get 57 cents per mile or something like that, whatever it is,

[00:31:34.92] spk_0:
yeah, gets adjusted every year. But if you’re doing it for ah, non profit organization, your deduction rate is much, much smaller. It’s I can’t remember the number, but it’s like 14 cents, um, so you don’t get the same benefits when you’re doing it for another organization?

[00:31:53.82] spk_1:
Is that for a volunteer or that applies to employees. Also,

[00:31:57.84] spk_0:
it would apply to anybody who’s taking that deduction on their own s. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Best for the non profit to reimburse.

[00:32:34.54] spk_1:
Yeah. Spitballing. Okay, um, I’m glad you’re smiling over the three martini lunch. That’s good. Let’s go. What? Well, we could cynically say that was a gesture A KN award for focus on Well, doesn’t have to be Wall Street, but we could be most cynical and say it was for the president’s Wall Street friends to now deduct all there all their fancy meals in New York City at 100% instead of only half.

[00:32:40.54] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s right. And I I think that’s the cynical viewpoint

[00:32:50.54] spk_1:
e. There’s no question of that. That’s time. But then there’s the

[00:32:51.25] spk_0:
other side of that. Well, can stimulate the restaurant

[00:33:11.14] spk_1:
well, and they stimulate the restaurant economy. Yes, industry. And also there are small businesses. Everybody does not own a Wall Street business in New York City. Of course. All right. Onley only only holds 80% true. Um what? Anything else? Anything else that you think non profit need to know about P p p two point. Oh,

[00:33:16.64] spk_0:
well, I think out of the same kind of act where the pee pee pee loans came out of was important provisions regarding the charitable contribution deduction. So as long as we were talking about deductions, I thought it might be important to know that

[00:33:30.57] spk_1:
for your donors,

[00:33:48.44] spk_0:
Yeah, so for donors. So when we talked about deductions and itemizers, you know, as a result of the Trump Tax Act, um, some years ago, now a tw the start of his administration, we ended up with having, you know, itemizers, um, mhm being reduced from, I think, something like 35% of all taxpayers, down to about 10% of taxpayers. Meaning that 90% of taxpayers would not get the benefit of a charitable contribution deduction because they would take the standard deduction rather than itemize. It would be better for them. So the vast majority of taxpayers, the math, vast majority of small organization donors are not going to get a tax benefit from giving a charitable contribution anymore. So, you know, we’re still relying on them to do it because they believe in the organization and its mission and the people there, and you know what it’s doing but the tax benefits not going to be there anymore until the cares Act provisions last year that said, Well, even if you’re non itemizing, you can deduct up to $300 Is an individual $600 for a married joint filer? Um, above the line, basically. So you can you can get that deduction even if you’re not itemizing.

[00:34:55.48] spk_1:
Take the standard deduction, but you can add another up to $300 per person,

[00:36:21.13] spk_0:
Right? So what this bill does is it Extended it out. So now we will. The previous bill was going Thio run out and we’ve got now an extension of this for another year, so that is a good thing. So that was only gonna last through 2020 Now, Now we have it for 2021 A ZX well, and and, uh, another thing or are somewhat related thio that are just sort of other relief provision. The measure provides an additional $300 per week and unemployment benefits through March 14th is gonna be helpful. Um, there’s a moratorium on evictions that was going to expire December 31st, 2020. And now that’s, um, uh, going to be extended out for a month. Not very much, but every little bit helps right on $25 billion available in additional federal funding for assistance to renters. So we will see if that if that actually plays out. And finally, there’s an extension of the Cares Act employee retention tax credit through July 1st. So that’s a credit. So versus a deduction, which you take after you figure out what your taxable, you know, um, in determining your taxable income. I’m sorry. And the credit after you figured out what your taxes are that would apply against your taxes. So there’s an employee retention tax credit. Um, that’s been made a little bit simpler. It’s a little too complicated for probably people’s interest on this radio program. But take a look at it as a tax credit might be really valuable to some organizations that might not otherwise qualify for PDP. Forgivable

[00:36:46.96] spk_1:
long. Okay. For employee retention. Yeah. Okay. Okay. How about we leave it there? Gene Sound. Okay,

[00:36:54.03] spk_0:
That sounds great, tony.

[00:37:58.63] spk_1:
Okay. Thank you again. Thank you for doing P p p re ducks. Two point. Oh, uh, course. Gene is managing attorney of Neo. You’ll find the firm at neo law group dot com. He’s at G Tack, and you should be subscribing to the wildly popular non profit lob log dot com. Thank you very much, Jeanne. Always a pleasure, tony. Thanks Next week. The hot sauce principle. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor. Simplified for a free demo and a free month. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty. Be with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great