Eric Saperston: Wake Up Excited, Go To Bed Fulfilled
That’s what Eric Saperston wants for you. In this archive show from October 17, 2022, he returns after many years to share his wisdom borne of research over cups of coffee with some of the most successful folks on the planet. Plus there’s his book, “Live In Wonder.” We can always use Eric’s inspiration and empowerment.
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Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be forced to endure the pain of dextroclination if I saw that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to tell you what’s up. Hey Tony, I’ll be happy to. Wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled. That’s what Eric Saperston wants for you. In this archive show from October 17, 2022, he returns after many years to share his wisdom, born of research over cups of coffee with some of the most successful folks on the planet. Plus, there’s his book, Live in Wonder. We can always use Eric’s inspiration and empowering. On Tony’s take two. I’m at NTC. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, Donorbox.org. Here is, wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled. It is a genuine pleasure to welcome back Eric Saperston to the show. He is an award-winning winning filmmaker, bestselling author, executive coach, keynote speaker, and host of the new series Three Things. You may have seen him on the Today Show, CNN or Headline News, or in the New York Times, National Geographic, or The Wall Street Journal. He continues to interview world leaders, tycoons, visionaries, and pioneers to understand the common traits that make them successful. He’s at Eric Saperton and at Eric Saperton.com. Eric, welcome back to nonprofit radio. Yay, Tony, what a pleasure to be uh back with you, my friend. 10 years. That’s some people would call that a decade. 10 it was, it was February 2012, last time you were on, we met at the thing called the NextGen Charity Conference in New York City. Uh, and I’ve been following you, uh, since I’ve got your film. We’re gonna talk about, you’ve, uh, you’ve been living a life of wonder, we’re gonna get to that book called Living Wonder. Um, but I, I’ve got to ask you about wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled. give us some, some, you know, we have a full hour together, so no need to, no need to squeeze it all in here, but like high level, how can we wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled? Well, what a great question. I think for me, first and foremost, you know, I grew up, um, my father, before I was born, had a stroke. He was 28 years old, and he had a stroke. Before that, he was playing minor league baseball for the White Sox. He was a top CE you know, executive. My mom was a stay at home mother, and at 28, my dad went into the doctor, found out he was uh bleeding in the arteries. They had to do a surgery on him, and he came out paralyzed on the entire left side of his body. And my mom, who was a stay at home mother, became the breadwinner for our family. My dad crippled, uh, was really, uh, in dire straits and, and depressed and had a real hard go. And then 4 years later, I wasn’t planned. I had an, I have an older brother and a sister that are 6 and 7 years old. Yeah, but even though my dad was paralyzed, uh, he still had some things functioning and so I, I, I 100% paralysis. I was born as a, as a surprise, uh, and, and came into the world with a father that was crippled, a father that was jaded, a father that was angry and upset for not, uh, you know, and rightfully so. He had, he was a, he was an athlete and a participator in life, and all of a sudden he was regulated to have to really, uh, crawl through the world, and it wasn’t a pleasurable experience for him. And one of the great lessons that I learned from growing up like that is around suffering, and there’s all kinds of suffering. There’s suffering that’s thrust upon you like being paralyzed, and then there’s internal suffering, mental suffering, and one of my personal missions is to is to reduce suffering and increase joy in people’s lives. And I, I looked at my dad, who was, was struggling, and I thought, well, he’s, he’s, he’s got a lot of wisdom, and he’s very smart, and I’m grateful to be a son, and he’s not waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled. And that’s something that called to me. I, I wanted to do that, and so I, out of college, I realized that uh I wanted to to learn how to to do that. And not knowing it myself cause it wasn’t modeled for me, that’s when I came up with this idea of traveling around the country and calling up the most passionate and successful people in the world, and asking them out for a cup of coffee, so I can learn from them how to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled. And so I’ve learned a tremendous amount and, and uh I think that’s one of the reasons why people bring me out now to give speeches and coach executives and do all the things is to help people uh do that. I think the world right now is For me, from where I’m sitting, and when I look at most people, I see most people going to bed exhausted and waking up tired. And then they put that on repeat over and over and all of a sudden, uh, you know, a week goes into a month and a month goes into a year, and all of a sudden, before you know it, it’s been a decade. Of, of doing that. And I think that’s a tragedy. I think that life is such a beautiful gift, and that we’re here to live it. And I think it’s important to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled and live every day like it’s your last. And a big part of that, you ask me, what can you do to do that? I would say three things in particular. One, I would say that it’s all about our language, that we use our language, uh, and the stories that we tell to shape and create and design our our life. And most people are using disempowering language, uh, to describe their life, and they’re getting disempowering results. And if we use empowering language, we can have a better shot at creating empowered results. So we play a game called Up the Language and elevate the story, and the higher we can tell, the better story that we can tell about our lives, the better our lives becomes. So that’s number one. Number 2, on what it takes to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled, I would say it’s all about being really clear about uh the standards, guiding principles, values, definitions, and commitments of who we are. One of the metaphors I like to use is that, uh, again, when I look around the world today, I see a lot of rudderless boats. And we all know what happens to a boat without a rudder, you know, people have become rudderless boats, and when a boat doesn’t have a rudder, that it drifts. It’s at the whim of the elements. It, uh, the news can impact it, uh, a story can impact it and people are being spun around. That’s why I think people are going to bed exhausted and waking up tired is because they’re unclear about what it is that they stand for and what I’ve learned from talking to The most successful people in the world is that they’re clear, and they weren’t clear when they became successful. They got clear on the way because that became the rudder of their boat, and they became the captain of their vessel, and they were able to carve through all kinds of scenarios to be who they. They are because they know what their definition of success is. They know what their vision is. They know what their mission is. They know what the values that push and drive them to do what they do. They know their commitments. And I think one of the things that I’m seeing as I’m coaching all these executives around the world is that no matter how successful the executive has become. People need a good checkup. They need an opportunity to kind of re-evaluate who am I, what am I, what do I care about, what’s important to me, and get really clear about that. And with that comes confidence, self-esteem, uh, velocity, ease, and power. And the third thing I would say that uh helps people wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled is. Definitely one of the big ahas for me after studying the common traits of extraordinary people now for, uh, many, many years. Uh, one of the big epiphanies was that the people who wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled and live extraordinary lives for decades are people that have maintained, celebrated, and share their sense of wonder with the world. That we have become a society that has become cynical and jaded and bored and disillusioned, and all that is because somebody has sold out their sense of wonder. Wonder is a birthright that all of us have. Every single child on this planet was born with a sense of wonder. It is our first value. Uh, it is about being curious and innovative and exploratory. And living life as an adventure, and some people are born with it and keep it, and nurture it, and celebrate it, and go on to live extraordinary lives, and other people let like a, you know, get punched in the gut and let the wind get knocked out of them. Let the wonder get knocked out of them, and then they become cynical and jaded and depressed and all those kind of things. So I think this world right now. Uh, one of my big invitations is for everyone to do whatever it takes to reclaim their sense of wonder, that childlike curiosity, that awe, that playfulness, and approach life from that place, it brings vitality, life force, and aliveness. Which I guess ultimately, uh, to answer your question, if you put all those together and a few other things, I think you have a greater chance of waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled. You make my synesthesia kick in. I, I, I get, I, I get some tears listening to you, especially the last, the, the 3rd, especially the 3rd, living, living in wonder that reclaiming that childhood curiosity, sense of sense of wonder, um. I, I, I have to share with you that I’ve been sharing your, I’m, I’m gonna call, well, I’m gonna call it a mantra. Maybe it’s not your mantra, but the mantra, wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled. Um, in, in my work, I am often talking to people who are. 70 and over because I’m doing planned giving fundraising for my clients who are nonprofits and they’re the, the people who leave the leave the the nonprofits in their wills and their trust and their life insurance, you know, they’re typically over 70 or so. So I shared this mantra with two women. And they both, they both wanted to write it down. 11 was 84, and the other, I told it to her on her 99th birthday. I was with her just a couple of weeks ago, celebrating her 99th birthday. And I, I told her about the, the, um, So the the aspiration to, uh, to wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled, and both of them, and she wrote it down. This is how a 99 year old remembers things. She would write it down, she just think about it and the 84 year old, that was a phone conversation, but same thing, she, she wanted to write it down so it’s, it’s inspirational to folks who are, uh, over 84 and over and including a 99 year old that I shared it with. So it’s, it is, uh, it’s such a beautiful aspiration. You know, it really came to me, uh, organically. I was, uh, you know, I, you, you mentioned that I made a movie and out of college for those folks I guess that that don’t know about it, you know, I, I, I graduated from college and My, I, I, I had gone to college not planning to go to college. I really was, that wasn’t really in my, uh, focus yet. I ended up going to school and then not only did I go to school, uh, I, I excelled. I became a student body president and a fraternity president, a resident advisor. I ran the volunteer center, a big advocate. I’ve been volunteering for a long time. Where did you go to school? shout out your alma mater San Diego State, SDSU San Diego State University. And uh and Grossmont College before that. I went to a community college, like I said, I did, I didn’t plan to go to college. I went to a community college first, then went to San Diego State, and volunteering was has been a part of my soul for a long time. It was when I was a kid volunteering. Uh, I volunteered for the Special Olympics. Uh, I ran the volunteer center. I ended up getting invited to run with the Olympic torch because I was a volunteer, uh, and volunteerism led me to being a speaker at the AmeriCorps conference, you know, for, for the Martin Luther King National Conference on Service. Then I ended up meeting Coretta Scott King, and then I ended up meeting the director of the FBI Bill Sessions, and then he introduced me to Governor Richards, and Governor Richards introduced me to Henry Winkler, the Fonz, and then that led to a development deal with Walt Disney Studios, and then it turned our journey. We were traveling, I was I kind of jumped ahead, but I was, I was in college graduating. Yeah, we’re gonna talk about van life. We’re gonna get, we’re gonna get the van, but no doubt about it. I, I, I, I, I, I think people like to say I was van life before van life was a hashtag, before we even had hashtags. Right before there was such a thing as a hashtag. It was a pound sign. It used to be a pound sign. It was a butcher, you would get a pound, like 33 pounds, and then that got converted to a hashtag and now I guess is just LB, but yes, when, when Pos was represented by today’s hashtag, you were, you were living van life. I was, I was indeed. So I guess for the for the just to recap the movie. So the movie where I, I graduated college, I took, and instead of getting a job because I, I felt like I achieved a lot in college and I wasn’t so ready to go, uh, get a corporate job or go to graduate school, I decided that I was gonna take a year off. And follow the Grateful Dead and work of ski season in Aspen. So I took my golden retriever jack. I bought a, I bought, I bought an old Volkswagen bus, uh, and the two of us set off across the country. Before I left, my mentor in school challenged me and he said, hey Eric, what can you do to make the trip more meaningful? I mean, I get you’re gonna go party and play, but you’re already good at that. What can you do that would provide value on this journey to yourself and others along the way? And he really dropped a great question that changed the trajectory of my life. And so I thought about it, and I thought about my life, and I thought about how my father was crippled, and I grew up in a house like I did, and I thought about wanting to, to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled, and what that would look like, and how can I do that? And then I read this quote that said, to know the road ahead. Ask those coming back. And that quote stuck with me, and I realized that if I wanted to live an extraordinary life, the quickest and best way that I could do that would be to go to talk to people who are already living extraordinary lives and study the common traits, motivating factors, and guiding principles that enable them, enable everyday people to, to produce extraordinary results. And so, I, I had this vision that I’d call people and then then I set off on this cross country adventure, not knowing if anybody would say yes or that I could do it, but at least it gave my, my, my journey a sense of purpose. So I set off across the country and maybe some of you might have seen me and not remembered cause how I funded my trip is I would pull into rest areas with my Coleman stove, and I’d set up my dog and my bus and I’d jam jammed some tunes, and I sold, uh, what I called back then sexy, kind, grilled cheese sandwiches, made with love for $1 off my Coleman stove for gas money and dog food. And people would walk up to me and just tilt their head like a dog that’s confused and just like, what are you doing? And I would tell them that I graduated from school and I’m traveling around the country and I’m calling up the most powerful people in the world and taking them out for a cup of coffee and how I’m funding my travels is by selling sexy kind grilled cheese sandwiches. How many sandwiches would you like? And uh some people called the cops, uh, some people, uh, you know, turned the other way and other people thought what I was doing was cool and they started buying my sandwiches and then not only did they buy my sandwiches, some people, they would give me $5 because they thought what I was doing was cool or $10 or $20 and Uh, a few times I even got some $50 bill once, uh, $50 bills for two pieces of bread and some cheese, which is, uh, pretty incredible to get $50 grilled cheese sandwiches. I guess that’s, that’s that’s what a college right, that’s that’s what a college education is all about learning how to market $50 grilled cheese sandwiches. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money, but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s Donor Box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services, and resources that gives fundraisers just like you, a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs, helping you, help others. Visit donorbox.org to learn more. Now back to wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled. So I got a chance to get to talk to, you know, travel and make some money, and then people were giving me, uh, when they found out what I was doing, they gave me names and numbers, even the people that they knew, oh my God, what you’re doing is cool. We, you know, I was telling them I’m bridging a gap between young people and wise elders and And uh do you know any wise elders? And then people would say, oh, you know who you need to meet is, you know, Max Cleland. He’s a Georgia Secretary of State and triple amputee and a war hero. I mean he’d be great, or you can go, oh my cousins, Bernie Marcus, the founder of Home Depot, you could, you could meet him. He’s really great and oh my, my, my, my sister-in-law is Kathy Thornton, who’s a United States astronaut, the first woman in space, and you should meet her. And so all of a sudden I got names and numbers of people, plus I was cold calling people and and uh calling corporations and calling all types of folks and saying, can I take you out for coffee? and then lo and behold, I was interviewing some of the most extraordinary people on the planet and then was encouraged, what what what are you doing? And then, uh, realized that we were capturing the living oral history of extraordinary people. And then we were encouraged to get a video camera and document our travels, and then we went across the country for 4 years, shot over 500 hours of footage, interviewed over 200 of the most extraordinary people from Billy Crystal to Jerry Garcia to Jimmy Carter to Maya Angelou to on and on and on, and met all these incredible people, documented, uh, their wisdom and experience. And then ended up making a feature film that uh we got a deal with Disney and then that movie we sold our short we made a short film first and uh we sold it at Sundance Film Festival and then our feature won South by Southwest and then off to the races we went and we had a hit on our hands that were in theaters all across the country that sold out shows. Oh, you have it right there. I got so we’re really blessed. my DVD Winner of the audience Award at the Atlanta, uh, Film and Video Festival 2001. Winner of the most memorable Film Award, South by Southwest Film Festival 2003. You gotta get your, you gotta get your copy of, uh, the DVD. I’m holding it up for we’re only folks are only hearing us, but I’m holding up my copy for, uh, for Eric. The Journey. The film is the journey. The Journey film, yeah, it’s so you can, you can, you can get access to that at uh Linonder.com or Ericsapperston.com. Yeah, the movie turned out, you know, it was in Barnes and Noble’s and Hollywood Video and uh Netflix and all that, and it really it it’s impacted people all all around the world and it’s, it’s been a real blessing. There was a little bubble gum and shoestring operation. Uh, you know, the little book, the Little Engine That Could, uh, I think I can, I think I can. I think our movie was like that and then it ended up, uh, really, um, inspiring and, and impacting a lot of people. And why I brought up the movie in the first place was that you were sharing with me how you shared. Um, wake up excited and go to bed with these really incredible clients of yours, and the impact it had, and I was saying that that phrase came organically, uh, to me. I was, I had done this travel. I, we, I picked up three other travelers and we went around the country interviewing people and it’s the story of our own dynamic and what it was like following a dream and and and being on this adventure and meeting all these iconic people. And then there was a moment where I was uh in a, we were camping. Uh, in the snow up in Oregon. And I just looked at the camera. Kathleen, our cinematographer, puts the camera on me, and it’s towards the end of our journey, uh, before we went home to even watch footage and figure out how to make it into a movie. This was well before that. This was just while we were still on the road, and Kathleen put the camera in front of me and and started asking me, you know, things that I’ve learned from taking this adventure. And I just looked at the camera and said, I just have one question to ask people, and that is, are you waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled? If you are, you’re doing the deal, and if not, what are you waiting for? And that became the last line of the movie, uh, and I’ve been living it ever since. And asking people that question everywhere I go, cause the question is so powerful to me, cause it’s either one or the other. Somebody looks at that question and goes, either I am waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled, and that’s a celebratory life. And other people ask themselves that question, and they’re like, dang it, I’m not. And if you’re not, then it’s time to set a course to make that happen. Life is such an unpredictable thing. We just learned from inside the pandemic. And everyone, it’s our birthright. I believe it’s our birthright to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled. We have control over a lot of things in our life. The, the, the folks we surround ourselves with, the choices we make personally and professionally, um, our, our, our thinking, you know, you, you, you captured with, uh, you know, our language using empowering language, but our thinking about ourselves or the way we talk about ourselves and You know, these are things that we all have control over and including those big decisions in life, you know, you, you can make the life that, that you aspire to, but you just have to be conscious in, in, in lots of things. Yeah, I think, uh, being conscious is important. I mean, conscious is a big word, a scary word, uh, you know, an out there woo word, but I think ultimately what it means is being present. Yeah. Being present, just being thoughtful about your, your decisions, your choices, your actions. Again, the folks you surround yourself with, I think, I think the folks you surround yourself with, you know, are, uh, uh, do you, do you, do you spend your, uh, your time with folks who are, who lift you up, who challenge you, who you, whose company you enjoy, or is it more folks that, you know, are troubled that bring you down, that are, that are needy. Uh, you know, there may be some folks in your life that you don’t have a choice about, but a lot of, a lot of folks in your life, you do have a choice about. And, and I think about the people you surround yourself with and spend time with. I agree with you. I think the principal, the principle there is like attracts like. So, uh, let’s say I’m a cynical, jaded, uh, frustrated person. And, and, and of course I’m thinking, you know, I need to hang out with more uplifting, powerful, inspiring people, but the uplifting, inspiring, powerful people aren’t gonna wanna hang out with you. Yeah, yeah, because you’re that person is is is is is taking energy instead of contributing energy. So it’s really comes down to who we’re being in the world. And to, to, to step up our game. I mean, both personally and professionally. I think one of the things that I’m doing now as a, as, you know, as a coach, we specialize in coaching executives to achieve meaningful impact and amplify their personal and professional narratives. Mhm. And to amplify our narratives, that’s what we’re talking about here is amplifying. The the higher our narrative can go up, the more joyous and fulfilled our lives are. People are, people are, it’s amazing to me, it’s just incredible. Even top executives are using language that’s off-putting. You know, in our world right now in corporate America, we’ve become a culture that’s talking about inclusion, empathy, belonging, psychological safety, organizational health, all these things are important to create a very powerful culture, and most organizations and their executives are using language that is outdated. They’re using language that’s disempowering. They’re using language that’s aggressive. They’re using language that actually makes people recoil, and they’re good people. The people that I’m talking to are good people. They’ve got great ideas and a powerful vision, and they want to do good in the world, yet the language they’re using is actually sending people further away. And if we start like what Eric, give us an example or two of, of this disempowering uh type language. Great. Uh, here’s here we talk about distinctions a lot. One of the distinctions that we talk about that’s super powerful as a leader. Is, are people talking from the I versus the you? Mm. Most people, what do you think? I or you? What do most people do? Uh, I’m talking about, so there’s a leader, it could be a leader, leader in an organization, gets up and starts talking to his people or her people about what’s going on in the organization. Is that leader using I language or you language? Uh, I, I, I, I think they’re probably using more I language. I, I would like to hear more we language. You can use we language. That would be a nice evolution. Uh, I would say just from, from our research and what we see is that most executives, it’s you, right, all you, yeah, you see, I see what, yeah, yeah, yeah, people are eing all over each other. You people, you’re doing it, yeah, yeah, you know what you need to do. You need to follow this. You need to, you need to, you need to, you need to, you need to, you need to, you need to, and then even if it’s good, even. If it’s well intended, they’re using the word you on people, and people get frustrated. They get, they, they get it, they feel attacked, they feel confronted. They feel like you’re judging them. The, the, the word you is challenging, way better for an executive to turn around and say, hey, this was my experience. This is what I need. This is what I would like to see happen. This is what I want. And that way I get to tell my story and you get to be enrolled in my story. You could possibility in my story. What about inclusive we language? We we together. Even better, even better. OK. Even better. Um, but it’s careful, we is a difficult one because we can be a crutch. People can use the word we when they really mean you. And it’s it’s different to get it can get a little dangerous. OK, you have to be sincere about doing things together, moving ahead together, together, yeah, be be sincere, be genuine about that. All right. um Here’s another one, people say, you know, people say you know a lot. People will be in a conversation to go, we, we learned this, we, we learned this the other day when we were, we were interviewing an IT guy. Yeah, to work with us. We took him to dinner and we had a piece of pizza and then he was sitting there, we just learned, we just, we just learned, you know, we were just thinking about this distinction, came up with this distinction around I versus you and then uh my, my lady and I were at dinner with this guy and he starts telling this story to us. He’s like, hey, you know, when you’re in Vegas. And then you’re out partying all night, and then, you know, you drink too much, and then you pass out, and then you find yourself in a hotel room with a black eye, and there’s two dudes there that you don’t know, and then your wallet’s gone, you know what I’m talking about. And Sarah and I are just so we, we, we, we actually, we actually don’t know what you’re talking about. I can’t say I’ve had that experience to, to know, no I. Uh, it happened in Seattle once, but never in Las Vegas, right, not for Las Vegas, only in Seattle, but what, what happens in Seattle stays in Seattle, so we don’t talk about it. All right, but you get what I’m saying, so that’s just one example, but there’s so many examples around and also just, you know, another one is that executives and in all of our lives, most people are talking about what they don’t want to have happen. We spend an awful lot of time talking about what we don’t want. I don’t want us to screw up. I don’t want us to miss the deadline. I don’t want us to da da da. And most people are always talking about what they don’t want. And to me, that’s language in the off position, talking about what you don’t want. Powerful, inspired, conscious leaders are talking about what they want. They’re actually speaking their possibility into the world. They’re inviting people to go where they want, that’s what a leader is, is to lead us towards where we wanna go together instead of talking about what we don’t want. Most people are talking about what we don’t want. We’re coaching executives to talk about what they do want. 10 years ago, I, I asked you what what it was that, what was the number one thing that distinguished those who were successful from those who were not successful. And uh, I’m gonna ask the same thing, not as a quiz, but I’m just curious if, if over time this this may have evolved because you’ve done hundreds of interviews since we talked 10 years ago. Um, what, what do you think is the number one thing that, uh, distinguishes those who are successful from those who are, who are not? Uh, I’m remembering our conversation from 10 years ago. Uh, I’m remembering that question, and I’m remembering the answer that I gave them. So I’ll give the answer I gave them and then see if a new one pops up now. But the answer I gave up then was, uh, when you asked me what separates those who achieve from those who do not. My answer back then was, Uh, based on an interview that I had with the president of Coca-Cola, Donald Keogh, who was arguably the most successful, uh, CEO in the world with one of the most recognizable brands in the world, and I had asked him that question, and I said, hey, you know, Mr. Keo, what separates those who achieve from those who do not? And like many of the guests, he looked at me and said, well, Eric, what do you think it is before, before he’d answer, he’d ask me. And then I’m thinking, well, it’s having a vision, uh, uh, finishing what you start, having good communication skills, I rattled off a few answers, and he goes, oh, those are all part of the soup that, you know, makes it all possible. But what I think, and then again, just the most powerful recognizable uh uh CEO uh of in the world at that time, one of them. looked at me and he said, Eric, what separates those who achieve from those who do not. is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others. For help. We think asking for help is a sign of weakness, and it’s actually a sign of strength. And that our vulnerability and willingness to learn and enroll people into a vision is what makes visions come true. It’s time for Tony’s Take two. Thank you, Kate. I’m at NTC, the nonprofit technology conference. On the floor, they don’t call it the exhibit floor, they call it the hub this year, capturing lots of interviews for future nonprofit radio episodes. Uh, we’re all in Baltimore together, of course, the nonprofit technology conference is sponsored, hosted by N10. You heard Amy Sample Ward talk about this, uh, the conference a couple of weeks ago with the Baltimore Convention Center. And I’ve got interviews coming up on uh email deliverability, um, email marketing. Multiple Panelists talking about different fundraising topics, something about events, experiential events, and it’s like 19 or so, uh, panels. So that is, uh, you know, if we do to a show, that’s 9, 10 weeks of NTC shows brought to you, brought to you, brought to you in living color audio by Tony Martignetti nonprofit Radio. So that’s where I am this week, the whole week, um, and we’ll start, yeah, we’ll start with the shows uh next week. That’s Tony’s take 2, Kate. I’m not there with you, so have lots of fun and meet lots of cool people. Thank you very much. What you mean we’ll have more fun because you’re not there? How are those two things connected? You’re not there and you’re not here. I mean, you’re not here and have fun to hear it live. Oh well, you’re in school though. We’ll have to wait, I guess. You have uh educational obligations that are constraining your time. No, that’s true. All right, maybe next year we’ll get you out of school. I don’t know. All right. Mhm. We’ve got Booco butt loads more time. Here’s the rest of Wake up excited, Go to bed fulfilled with Eric Saperston. That is what you said 10 years ago. I’ve remembered it. I’ve, I’ve used it from time to time, uh, and, and you brought vulnerability in too. I, I absolutely agree that vulnerability in a leader is a sign of strength, a sign of confidence that they’re willing to expose themselves, uh, and perhaps their organizations vulnerability, uh, to others, rather than wrapping up tight and appearing invincible and All knowing, which is, which is, uh, an, uh, uh, an, an unachievable state. Um, so, has it, has it evolved? Do you, do you feel now that was Mr. Keo’s answer and you adopted it? Do you think it’s, it’s changed? Do you, do you personally see something different through all the, through all these, uh, through this decade since? You know, I think now what I think, I think that is no doubt. I think you just said some really great things there one I mean asking for help is great. I think vulnerability. I think we wanna, we wanna follow people who are accessible, approachable, that they’re that I, I, I, I, I can relate to them. Genuine. I, I think that, yeah, and, and. Yeah, I, I, I was, I was with somebody yesterday who was talking about his executive teams, and he’s like, man, I love those people. I, I would do anything for him. I wanna, you know, and it was that and I know why they wanna do that, it’s cause the people there are right there with them. They’re, they’re not better than they’re they’re willing to do the work, they’re willing to get dirty with them, they’re willing to admit their own foibles and their own mistakes, and they’re willing to, and I think creating a culture of vulnerability like that breeds more vulnerability. It inspires more vulnerability and it creates community. Um, I think my answer now, uh, What separates those who achieve from those who do not now are leaders that genuinely care about the people they’re serving. They really care. Care about your health, your vitality, your wellness, your happiness, uh, and really, yeah, are willing to listen. I guess that would be that I guess that that’s my answer. People, what separates those who achieve from those who do not is one’s ability to listen well. And then you’ll hear people’s, uh, uh, you’ll, you’re here, you’re here, you’ll hear other people’s, uh, vulnerabilities, other people’s needs, and I think the genuine, uh, excelling leader can, uh, um, I, I, I wanna say something strong that accommodate, can, can support those, support those needs. Here those vulnerabilities, work with them, help people. Uh, excel in their strengths and build up their build up their weaknesses, the weak areas and In a, as a guy who studies communication, I think there’s 3 things that want to happen in every communication exchange with someone. That people want to be #1, they want to be seen, 2, they wanna be heard, and 3, they wanna be appreciated. And if we can do those three things in any communication exchange, we’re winning. And I think being a good listener enables that to happen. I get a chance to really see somebody, and we talked about being present, that’s a big one. Just being able to be with people. Be with people wherever they are, look them in the eyes, being able to have empathy and compassion and and and understanding, and really hear people, hear people’s stories, even the ones that are different than yours. Even with people that that you disagree with, can you still listen and hear them and let them so be able to be seen, so you get a chance to really listen and hear them heard, you get to really take in what they’re saying, even if you don’t agree, even if you don’t think it’s the right path, even if you’re not into it, but still give people dignity and respect for sharing, and then appreciate them, value them, understand them, be grateful for them. And then even if it’s like as a leader, people come and tell me, oh, you know, here’s a great idea, then, you know, it may not be the idea that I think is the right time at this moment. And here’s another, you know, great distinction that people are using, right? You know about communication distinctions around language. Most people use the word but a lot. If you go and study people right now, a lot of people are using the word but. And they’re using the word but all the time, even when they’re comparing two ideas they actually believe in. And so for me, most people that are leading right now, when I talk about language being off-putting, some leaders gonna hear somebody’s great idea that they think is awesome, and they’re gonna go, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, and then they’re gonna pivot. All that does is diminish what that person just said, shut them down and make it feel like they’re not as important. And now let me tell you what I think is important. The whole idea of improvisational comedy, it’s based on the principle yes and. Yes, yep. Yes and, way better than no but. Most people out there are no buts. If you’re a no but and you’re listening to this right now, I invite you to give up. No but and start becoming a yes and. it doesn’t cost you anything and it’s more inclusive, it’s more honoring, and it builds community. No but just does the opposite. So if I listen to somebody pitch an idea to me that’s not really what I think is the right time for me, I’m gonna be like, wow, that’s fascinating. And, and then I’m gonna pivot versus no but, let me tell you what my idea is. And it’s and you talked about humility, you know, we talked about vulnerability. Another thing of humility, right? That goes with asking for help, but it’s also just willingness to, to not always have all the answers. We don’t have to pretend that we have all the answers. And so for us, uh, being humble, somebody pitches me an idea and I don’t think it’s a great idea at the time that they pitch it, but two weeks from now, their idea could come into full focus and it was a great idea. One of my guiding principles I like to play with is uh I like to remind myself this phrase, could be good. Could be bad Too early to tell. OK Yeah it’s, it’s open minded, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s possibility related. there’s something this this could be, it could be fantastic, but, you know, we just don’t know yet. I dare say, living in wonder. Let’s talk about what a beautiful. I want to talk about the book, Li in Wonder, Quests, Quotes, and Questions to jumpstart your journey. First, just reading the title, I happen to love alliteration. Uh, this show I have Tony’s take two. if you get jargony, we have jargon jail. I love alliteration. You’re not, you’re not a jargon. I’m not worried about that at all for you, but I do put folks occasionally in jargon jail. I love alliteration. So quest quotes and questions to jumpstart your journey, that’s a great subtitle of the book for me. Um, Living Wonder. What, what, uh, uh, I know the book is available at uh Ericsapperston.com, but what are gonna, what are people gonna learn about Living Wonder? These handwritten pages. What are we gonna get? Uh, thank you so much. You put people in jargon jail. Uh, I’ve been really blessed. Uh, my, my neighbors, Woody Harrelson, and, uh, we spend a lot of time doing all kinds of fun shenanigans, and he’s one of the funniest and smartest people I know, and he’s an incredible storyteller and a phenomenal joke teller, and it’s a privilege to be uh around him and our friends and they’re always cracking jokes and telling great stories, and it’s, it’s, it’s. It’s almost nerve-wracking to be around such high, uh, quality, um, uh, presenters and performers. Uh, the, the image I have is, is when I was, you know, jumping, jumping rope, there’s like, you know, that rhythm, there’s a rope and everyone’s talking and sharing a joke and then and then it’s going and then all of a sudden, you know, oh, I want to tell a joke and then kind of jump in and if if I tell a good joke, you know, the, the, the, the rope’s still going and, you know, and I didn’t miss a beat. Other times you jump in and now all of a sudden joke doesn’t really go well and then everyone kind of just is like, you know, and it’s so it’s so loud in a room like that because everyone’s so good at telling jokes so it’s just like aww and then all of a sudden you, you put people in jargon jail, uh, Woody likes to put people in joke probation. All of a sudden he looks and I and I get there, you know it’s like Eric, uh, joke probation and all of a sudden I’m, you know, I, I, I get joke probation a lot. You brought the, you brought the crowd down. Yeah, I sometimes, you know, it’s it’s it’s, it’s a high risk game, but, you know, for the times, you know, it’s like being a professional baseball player. You strike out a lot, but every once in a while, you know, you hit the ball and people, people invite you back to dinner. You you can offer Woody joke jail. Well, I thought, you know, my favorite thing is to put him, and he’s so good at it, and every once in a while he flubs and I get to all of a sudden go, oh, joke probation for you. And uh it’s, it’s really fun. It’s it’s it’s uh one of the things that one of the principles that that I’ve really come to live by is a rising tide lifts all boats, and being around, I, you know, I live on a farm now. Uh, with, uh, a bunch of people that that live on the farm. We have 280 acres out here and it’s just extraordinary. In Hawaii, we want folks you know that you live in Hawaii. I do. And, and, and just being in community has taught me so much. I, I, I, I grew up in a condo in uh San Diego and and uh moved to Atlanta and I’ve lived in Venice Beach, California, and I’ve Uh, I, I, I’ve been relatively isolated, even though I’ve been, you know, popular or created things. I, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve lived in big cities where, you know, I might know a neighbor or two, but for the most part I’ve, I’ve, you know, been, been more independent. Now I live in a place where I am, uh, with people, and that has been another big growth for me is to, to one live where we’re planting food. Uh, in feeding people and, uh, eating food from the land and learning about sustainability and regeneration and soil, and, uh, some really healthy practices and what it’s like to to be in community and and how communities as well as organizations and not for profits and families thrive is by contribution. Uh, we become a society of consumers. Uh, most people like to take, you know, what’s in it for me, and really thriving communities, thriving organizations, thriving families are, are, are shifting that. They’re upping the language and elevating the story to instead of what’s in it for me, they’re asking themselves, hey, how can I contribute? How can I make this better? What can I do to provide value? And that has been a a secret sauce for sure. To answer your question about the the book Living Wonder, uh, that came, that came to me because of my travels, I was, um, I didn’t have it early on. When you met me, I was really, um, coming off of meeting all these extraordinary people and getting invited to give speeches for Nike and Coke and General Mills and UPS and ADP and United Way and all these, and I was doing opening and closing keynotes in front of, you know, big audiences, and I was uh I think one of my, my talents is that I, you know, I can look at everyone that I’ve interviewed, and I can tell you at least 1, probably 2 or 3 lessons that that person taught me, and I could go give a speech, and I can interview the executives at a company, find out what values are important to them, go. In my arsenal of stories of people who I’ve met and then shuffle the deck, pull out, uh, a picture of this person and a picture of this person and a picture of this person, and then that’s my speech. I can share these really great stories that will relate to the organizational culture and inspire them to even do better. When I would be done with these speeches, uh, you know, the audience would be really gracious, and, um, they would, they would engage in questions with me, and they would, you know, ask me different things about the movie or what I shared about what not. And every once in a while there’d be somebody who would Raise their hand and and say, hey, Eric, you know, I really get that you’re, you know, you did this cool thing, you met all these cool people and you’re able to share all these great stories and lessons from leadership lessons and communication distinctions from all these wise people that you’ve met, and you’re doing a great job of it, and I loved it and uh I’m just curious, you got to go on this adventure. And you did something that most people never get to do, and you got access to all these big brains, uh, and extraordinary people. What did you deduce that was, that was the commonality? I, I, I, I know that you can tell me a story about Jimmy Carter when you met Spike Lee or whoever it is, but I wanna know what, what did you learn? And for years, I would be up there going, you know what? I don’t know that I have that answer yet, and it was a little awkward cause I wanted to have an answer, but I didn’t have it, and it took about 6 or 7 years after the journey. There’s a great, uh, there’s a great line by Khalil, the poet Khalil Gabron, who said, as the mountain to the climber. Is clearest from the plane. As the mountain to the climber is clearest from the plane. What that means to me is that when I was on the mountain, traveling, all I could see was what was in front of me, and I only had the perspective of what was in my immediate surroundings. And things became clear when I got to leave the mountain and be on the plane and look back up and see where I traveled. And I think that’s for all of us. We get a chance to, you know, in the moment, we can only do the best we can in the moment. A lot of wisdom, a lot of clarity, a lot of understanding comes after the experience is over, then we get a chance to kind of look back at where we traveled, then that’s where we get to deduce some really great takeaways. And so for me, it took a while. It took me 6 years of being on the plane. And back at the mountain and then all of a sudden, I was on a surf trip to Costa Rica, and I had an epiphany, and the epiphany was that the thing, the greatest commonality, the greatest aha, the thing that all these extraordinary people, whether they were a world renowned architect, a world renowned horse trainer, they were a president of the United States, they were a CEO that took an idea from a garage to being super successful. The common or a rock star, all the commonalities that these folks had in common. The number one thing is that they still were Excited and open and willing, and innovative, and exploratory about life. They were just willing to, like, they they showed up in a meeting and they’re like, I don’t know, let’s try that. Let’s figure this out. What do you think? And it was just, it was this big light bulb that went on going, wow, there is this idea that we were all born with a sense of wonder. It’s the thing that is our life force. People who live in wonder have their light turned on. And it’s bright, and we like to be around those people. It’s contagious, it’s uplifting, it’s inspiring to be around people that are still learning and growing. And then there’s a whole bunch of other people who are like, know it alls, and let me tell you how that’s not gonna work, and, you know, that’s never gonna happen, and blah blah blah, and they’re talking even that what I’m saying, the the example I just gave, those are people talking about what they don’t want. It’s never gonna happen, it’s not gonna work. Those are people talking about what they don’t want. It’s the negative part versus talking about, hey, I’m not, I’m not coming from some fairy dust land, making anything, making a movie, writing a book, doing a speech, it takes work and it, it, it’s not like I just get to go poof, just cause I’m using inspiring language, things happen. Man, it’s still hard. I get to go into a meeting instead of going, this isn’t gonna work. I can go to a meeting and say, hey, you guys are all very smart. Can you all look at this idea and share with me anything that you think might be in the way of our success. And then we get to explore those things that might be in the way so we can turn those into the on position, but instead of going, oh, that’s not gonna work, and let me tell you why it’s not gonna work, or people that go to a meeting and say, you know what, yeah, uh, you know what the problem is. I don’t care about what the problem is. I wanna know what the solution is, and let’s figure it out, and then maybe we won’t even maybe not even work, but at least we’re focused on the solution, and then if we discover it’s not it, it’ll reveal something else that’ll take us on another adventure that’ll bring us closer to the thing we want anyway. So this whole idea about wonder is that the people who are waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled are people who are living in wonder. and wonder, the thing about wonder is that it’s not something that needs to be taught. It just needs to be remembered. We just have to get quiet enough to remember what it was like when the world didn’t take away our joy. We got to reclaim our power instead of, you know, all the cynics and all the people that said you couldn’t do it, or all the people that were mean spirited, and all the people that hurt our feelings, just be able to go, OK, well, I’m not gonna let you win. I’m gonna reclaim that sense of wonder. I’m gonna go back out in nature. And I’m gonna sit and look at the sunset, or I’m gonna go look at the birds, or I’m gonna go look at a stream going by and remember how magnificent this place is. I’m gonna stand up. I’m gonna just, right now, I’m gonna stand up and put my arms up in the air and lean back a little bit and go, whoa, and remember that I’m floating on a ball that’s rotating through space right now. We are sitting on a ball rotating through space and we’re, it’s incredible or that even right now, you and I are talking through Zoom technology. This is crazy. I can see you, you can see me. You’re in, you’re in the Carolinas. I’m in Maui, Hawaii, and we’re having this conversation. This is incredible. I like to think about, man, I, I, I send a, a, a, a, a, a, a piece of mail to somebody and all of a sudden, within a couple of days or weeks it arrives somewhere. That’s incredible. I get to get on a plane and space for 55 cents for 55 cents, that piece of mail. I, I think one of the things about wonder, a close, if, if you want to get access to wonder in your life. Really start pushing and leaning in, not pushing, but leaning into more gratitude. Being grateful Being grateful for being grateful for it all, being grateful for technology, being grateful for your friends, being grateful for your wife, being grateful for your husband, being grateful for your employment, being grateful to be of service, being grateful that you have all four arms and legs that you can use, be grateful for your ability to communicate, be grateful, be grateful for it all. Gratitude brings direct access to a sense of wonder, a sense of awe, a sense of marvel, a sense of astonishment. So you ask what the what the book will do. So, the book came out of this epiphany of going, OK, I just realized that the people that are extraordinary in this world have maintained, celebrated, and share their sense of wonder with each with each other in the world. And that’s powerful, and then I realized, oh my gosh, I now have a responsibility. Uh, I just, you, I went on this quest, I went on this adventure. I went to the top of the hill. I figured out this idea of, wow, wonder is something. I went and checked in. I went back and interviewed my guests and checked in because I didn’t, if I go back through all the transcripts, there wasn’t wonder really talked about. One, because I didn’t have that in my lexicon to even talk about it. And two, and this is the real fascinating part, is that the people that I were the people that I was interviewing. They didn’t bring up wonder. Because it wasn’t a success strategy. It was who they were being. Mm. They weren’t using wonder as a way to be successful, they were just being wondrous. That’s just innately who they were, and it was just how they rolled through the world, and then I got to go back and check in. I remember talking to um Steven Tyler from, you know, the band Aerosmith, and I, and I leaned into his ear, and I, and I said, uh, you know, I, I, uh, you know, I, I’m, I’m just curious, you know, I’m I’m exploring the you know the idea of uh the important uh role Wonder plays in all of our lives. And he looked around and and just looked back at me and uh with sparkly eyes and just said, oh, I could write a whole book about that. And it is true, and I went and talked to all these incredible people, and they said, oh my gosh, you’re right, Eric. Wonder has been a major part of who I am in the world. I thank you, cause I didn’t even think about that as part of my thing. It’s just who I’m being, and my invitation is definitely to to to to to reclaim your sense of wonder, so that you can attract more wondrous people in your life. I’d like to give you a chance to drop some more names so that folks have, uh, have an even wider, you’ve already talked about Jerry Garcia and Steven Tyler and Jimmy Carter, uh, and Henry Winkler, uh, I, I’d like folks to get a sense of, you know, you’re, you, of your, the breath of your, the breath of your, uh, your, your interviews, your, your folks that you’ve you’ve tapped the minds of. Uh, let’s see. I just interviewed Daniel Pink, who is an amazing author. He was a speechwriter for, um, Al Gore with left politics and then started writing really incredible books. He wrote a book called Drive, uh, he’s got a new book out, uh, um. Around regret, he’s very powerful uh just interviewed him, just interviewed, uh, Pat Simmons, uh, from from the band The Doobie Brothers. Uh, that was great. He’s the guy that wrote, uh, O Blackwater, keep on keep on shining on old Black, yeah, OK, yes, a couple more. Drop a couple more. Uh, I, well, I just, I just interviewed him just so I just interviewed him. He was just inducted into the Music Hall of Fame. Uh, they were just on their 50th anniversary tour, and, uh, and I asked uh Pat Simmons, I said, uh, what are 3 things you’ve learned about songwriting? And uh Pat said, uh, 3 things I’ve learned about songwriting. Uh, #1, Uh, keep it simple. Uh, #2, Uh, write about what you know, uh, your own experience, basically. And number 3, don’t bore us, get to the chorus. Uh, it’s brilliant. OK, who else have I, who else have I interviewed? Um, go ahead. I, we interviewed, just interviewed Diana Nyad, who’s a world record swimmer. She’s incredible, um. And let’s see, I’ve interviewed uh the founder of the Ritz-Carlton, I’ve interviewed the chairman of UPS. I’ve interviewed, um, Oh yeah, very good. How about going back, uh, going back to, uh, your, your, your 4 years in the van. Uh let’s see who comes to mind there? I know Jimmy Carter was part of that, part of that cadre. Jimmy Jimmy Carter was incredible. I interviewed, uh. Uh, back then, Governor Ann Richards, who was incredible from Texas, uh, uh, I interviewed Ken Kesey who wrote One Flew Over a Cuckoo’s Nest, and, uh, Merry Prankster. I interviewed Billy Frank Junior, the head of the Indian Fisheries Commission. Uh, I interviewed Hazel Wolf, who was a 98 year old environmental activist, uh, poet Maya Angelou, um, Yeah, that’s a pretty good list. It’s been incredible. I’ve I’ve interviewed so many people and, and those are all iconic names, you know, but I’ve also interviewed farmers and I’ve interviewed teachers and I’ve interviewed a lot of people that you’ve never heard of, um, and, uh, yeah, and and I and and I also interviewed, you know, thousands of young people when I was on my journey, the whole premise of the journey film was to bridge a gap between young people and elders. So I interviewed all kinds of young people from all, you know, every area of of life and would would interview them and ask them what they were struggling with and then figure out, you know, what that was and then I’d go to the top of the food chain and go, hey, my, this is something my friends are struggling with. Do you have an answer for that? And that’s how we, we bridge the gap between those that wanna learn and those that want to teach. I don’t think I, I fully answered, uh, your question about the book, you know, you, you’re you were saying what, what, what does the reader get from the live and wonder book and. I, you know, the, what the, what the reader gets one, the epiphany of, of living wonder that that was that that was the origins of why I felt inspired to write the book. And then the book is about the reader and you know less about me, more about the other is one of my principles and it was the book’s less about me, more about the other, more about the reader. I tell you a little bit about my story in the beginning. Uh, it’s quest quotes and questions to jumpstart your journey. The quest part of the Live and Wonder book is I realized that I could write a, I can write a book about my story and my life and all that I learned, and that’s cool. Or I can write a book that is less about me, more about the other, and it gives people who read the book. Chance to take their own journey, and that was more compelling to me. Instead of me writing and telling you about my journey, I wanted to inspire people to take their own journey. And so the books, the opening part of the quest is for anyone that’s reading the book to pick 5 people in their life. That are people that they respect and admire, and are looking at that person’s life going, man, I want more of that, you know, and and it could be anything. It could be, I just got married and I’m newlywed, and, you know, Bill and and Nancy Schmidt down the road have been married for 60 years, and they’re as cute as a button, and I want somebody to write that person’s name down and then go interview that person. Have you and your couple go interview that wise person to find out the values they live by, the struggles they’ve endured, and what advice and counsel they give you to better prepare yourself to model their behavior. If you want to become a CEO, go interview 5 CEOs, and I wouldn’t just go interview anybody. I’d go interview really successful, happy, uplifting, whatever it is that you want to emulate and go talk to them. If you want to build a boat, uh, go talk to boat builders, whatever. So pick 5 people in your life that you admire and respect that you want more of. And instead of sitting back, coming up with, uh, you know, I can’t do it. I don’t know how to do it. I don’t have the credentials. I’m not sure, blah, blah, blah blah blah, be more empowered and go, look, this is what I want. I’m not sure how to get there. I’ve never done it before. OK, I’m gonna go look in my world, whether it could be your neighbor or somebody famous, doesn’t matter to me. Pick 5 people in your life that you want more of that in your world and have the courage to ask them out for a cup of coffee and learn. And so that’s the first part is that everyone gets a chance to pick people in life that they admire. That’s the quest. The quotes are all these quotes that I’ve used to keep my own heart and mind open. So I shared those quotes. They’re really inspiring and uplifting to people. And then the the third part is the questions, and they’re all they’re they’re all the questions that I used to interview my guests. So you can use those same questions to interview somebody or you can come up with your own. People use the book to actually go do all kinds of amazing things that we’ve gotten stories from all around the world where people actually go take the book, they pick somebody, they say, I just got this book, they go interview that person and their life changes. It’s been phenomenal. And it’s been, uh, it’s been a really uh uh uh a pleasure to have written a book that has impacted so many people. So I, I, I, if it’s something that’s that’s calling to anybody that’s listening, it’s, it’s a. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s, it’s based on similar to my movie. It’s based on the principle to know the road ahead, ask those coming back. Then anything you want to learn about anything is an inspired conversation and a cup of coffee away. And it’s, it’s jumpstart your journey. I mean, you had the journey, you had the journey, the film, you had your journey, it’s quest quotes and questions to jumpstart your journey. Could you, uh, could you share one of your that’s, that’s me that that’s me using your in a good way, I hope. Yeah, that’s me, you or somebody in your journey, yeah. What’s, what’s one of your quotes? You, you have a bunch of, you said you have a number of quotes that you live by. Can you share one of your quotes with us? Oh, You want, you want a personal quote that I’ve written or a quote from the book? Which one are you asking? Oh, well, I was looking for one from the book. Those are, those are personal quotes though, aren’t they in the book? No, those are other people that you’ve you’ve used. OK. I, I want folks to be inspired about the book. Can you share a quote from the book? Uh, I can. Here, let me, uh, OK, well, while you do that, cause I put you on the spot, now you gotta go, actually, yeah, he’s going to his book. What what what better source for quotes from the book than uh than the book. And uh yeah, we go ahead. Yeah, I’m thinking about which uh I think this is, this is my favorite. OK. Uh, I think this has to do with, uh, 11 of the things that I learned on the journey. I How important it is to be yourself. And that most people Uh, that’s, that’s a challenge. Most, most people are so highly influenced. Uh, by other people’s impression of who they are, that they would sell out their sense of wonder, their authenticity, their sense of adventure, all kinds of things to conform, uh, to what other people think. And the people who get up excited, go to bed fulfilled, live extraordinary lives are more committed to their principles. They’re more committed to their values. They’re more committed to who they are and what they say they’re gonna do in this world, and they can’t please everybody. It’s one of the common things that there’s no doubt you cannot please everybody. And when I set off to travel the country in my van selling grilled cheese sandwiches and asking that I was gonna call up people and take them out for coffee, for a long time, I had to be ostracized and judged. And uh ridiculed and had to endure people’s uh uh projection onto me. It wasn’t, it doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel good to be to to have that happen. And if I allowed my self-esteem to be contingent upon what other people thought of me, I’m done. And so having the courage to speak my possibility into the world is something that I invite everybody to have. It’s, it’s to be able to just be you unapologetically and to trust the process being you. And this is one of my favorite, this is how we opened the book, um, there’s an author, super uber successful author, Doctor Wayne Dyer, who, that was another one of my interviews. Uh, I came out to visit him. He lived here in Maui, and uh I came out to to visit him, and then I ended up staying, uh, and moving from Venice Beach to Maui after that visit. But he, he’s extraordinary, he passed away, but he was extraordinary, and he said this, uh, about Oprah Winfrey, and this is how I open up the Lin Wonder book. Uh, many years ago, Oprah Winfrey was interviewed about her life. Many years ago, Oprah Winfrey was interviewed about her life and asked whether she had known that she would become one of the most powerful women in the world. She explained to the reporter that when she was a little girl, someone asked her. What she wanted to do with her life. She answered by saying that she didn’t know. She just liked talking to people. The person quickly retorted, well, You can’t make a living doing that. We can learn a lot from uh. The negative, the, the, the negative, uh, the down, the Debbie downers, uh, around us and to uh ignore them and And move ahead with our own journeys. Uh, you know, you, you seem to like 3s. What what is this series, 3 things. Three things, you know, I, after somebody who has interviewed people for the majority of my, my life and certainly my, my, uh, career. And had made a movie, you know, I would interview people and spend days interviewing them and then have to go back and watch all that footage. Uh, I was looking for a way to, to capture the living world history of extraordinary people and do it in a succinct and refreshing way. And what we came up with was This idea of three things. And I didn’t realize that at the time, it was really Again, a real just uh organic unfolding. I, I, I, I’m a storyteller, and I study stories, and I ask people to share their stories, and I think about the, the, the basic tenets of storytelling. The basic tenets of storytelling is uh a setup, a conflict, a resolution. A beginning, a middle, and an end. And if we adhere to that structure, we’re telling a good story. And knowing that, I thought, well, why don’t I help that along? I’ll ask people to share with me a three things question so that they frame it with, here’s number 1, here’s number 2, and here’s number 3. And it turns out that that is a magical formula, that we are able to tap into some of the most iconic minds and ask them what their three things are, and they nail it out of the park, and they share 3 incredible insightful messages, and they’re sticky, and they’re powerful, and they’re uplifting. And that’s what we’ve created. So we’ve created a new series called Three Things, uh, with Eric Zapperston, and I’m interviewing iconic legends and uh we’re, we’re capturing that now and we’re we’re cataloging a whole bunch of those and I think we’re gonna begin releasing those, uh, in early 2023. So many folks are where we can see this. Uh, I, you know what, right now we’re we’re in negotiations with a few folks, uh, uh, with some agents and managers to figure out the, the, the outlet of where it’s gonna ultimately be. What I’d like to do is, if anybody has been inspired by what’s happening, uh, today on our chat and we want to be connected to the Three Things series, to come to Ericsapperston.com and sign up for our newsletter. Uh, our, our fans will get it first. OK. OK. And the reason I say you, you seem to like 3 3s because you, you have the series 3 things. Uh, I asked you how to live in one, how, how to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled, and you cited 3 things. Uh, you have a game called 3 Things. Uh, we do. You wanna, you wanna, you wanna tease the game this is all at uh Eric Saperton.com or and or live in Wonder.com. Uh, but I, I, the power connected, I connected to the game from this Eric Saperton site, but I think it goes over to Living Wonder, but a game called Three Things, and then, and then we’ll wrap it up. What, what’s the three things that you, you’ve been so sweet. I’m, I’m so, I’m so grateful to be asked to be on the podcast with you. I’m grateful for our friendship. I’m grateful that we got a chance to meet 10 years ago and that, uh, we get to still be in a relationship and check in with each other now and, and, um, you know, thank, thank you for including me into your world and, and. Uh, one of my favorite sayings is when you drink the water, uh, remember who dug the well. So thank you for digging such a huge well and being of service to so many organizations, uh, Tony, you’re, you’re, you’re a bright light in this world. That’s very thoughtful. Thank you. And uh to, to give you back some of uh a phrase that you used, I think you are contagious, uplifting, and inspiring. He’s Eric Saperton. All right, so you can learn about uh the series 3 things. For that, you go to Eric Saperton.com. Uh, the book Living Wonder, Quests, quotes and questions to jumpstart your journey. Also Eric Saperton.com, uh, for the game, 3 things. I believe that’s at Lionder.com, but you can get to one from the other. Uh, the movie, The Journey, that’s at uh Eric Saperton.com, I believe. You gotta get the DVD The Journey. So, Uh, Eric, what a pleasure to be connected for all these years and to, uh, Have another, uh, an even much longer conversation than uh than our 10 or 12 minutes we did in uh in 2012. It’s a real joy, a real pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for what you’re doing. Thank you for sharing yourself, your ideas. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Um, uh, let’s not wait another 10 years for us to connect. No, we’ll not. You’ll, you’ll be on, you’ll, I’ll have you back because I think people are gonna enjoy hearing from you. Well, what if I, you know if anybody out there, anybody that’s been listening, thank you so much, uh, thank you for the role you play, uh, in the nonprofit world. I think you are champions, uh, and, uh. Light workers and uh uh change agents and um I just I I I applaud all y’all, just thank you for for for contributing and and making the world a better place, and if there’s anything I can ever do, whether it be uh coaching uh you or coaching your executives or giving a virtual talk or a talk in person to your organization. Uh, please call on me, and I’d love to, to help and uh be a part of your journey. Eric Saperton at Eric Saperton and Ericsapperston.com. Next week, we’ll kick off our 25 NTC coverage with Amy Sample Ward. If you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by Donor Box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, DonorBox.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.
Do your fundraising messages engage and connect with your donors and prospects? Or do they merely inform? Do you know how to craft an engaging story? And what makes stories so valuable anyway? Lynn Bohart answers all these questions and more, as she encourages you into persuasive writing and core messaging. Her new book is “Raise More Money Through Better Messaging.”
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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
Nick Grono: Nonprofit Leadership For Current & Aspiring
There’s a new compassionate, inspiring and valuable guidebook on nonprofit leadership. It’s aptly named, “How To Lead Nonprofits.” The author, Nick Grono, shares his thinking on the role of the CEO, your team and diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI), because the success of the people leading throughout your nonprofit, now and in the future, is essential to your mission success. Nick is CEO of Freedom Fund.
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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.
Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. View Full Transcript
And welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be thrown into dysteiasis if I saw that you doubled down on the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer Kate with what’s going on. Hey, Tony. We’ve got Nonprofit leadership for current and aspiring. There’s a new compassionate, inspiring, and valuable guidebook on nonprofit leadership. It’s aptly named How to Lead Nonprofits. The author, Nick Grono shares his thinking on the role of the CEO, your team, and diversity, equity and inclusion, because the success of the people leading throughout your nonprofit now and in the future is essential to your mission success. Nick is CEO of Freedom Fund. On Tony’s take 2. Gratitudes. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, DonorBox.org. Here is nonprofit leadership for current and aspiring. It’s my pleasure to welcome Nick Groo to nonprofit Radio. Nick has decades of experience leading and chairing nonprofits. He is CEO of Freedom Fund. A charity dedicated to ending modern slavery around the world. His book, which brings him to the show is How to Lead nonprofits Turning Purpose into Impact to Change the World. You’ll find Nick on LinkedIn. Nick Roo, welcome to nonprofit Radio. Tony, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me on. The pleasure. Thank you for joining. Congratulations on your book published, uh, just last year, very recently last year, right? Yeah, published mid last year, so still kind of reasonably fresh off the presses. Good, congratulations again. Uh, leading nonprofits, why do you feel the, the how to lead nonprofits? Why do you feel the book is essential? Uh, you kind of, you say you’re filling a void between sort of business and nonprofit leadership. Please fill in that gap. Why, why this book now? Well, there are thousands of books on business leadership, right, you see new books every day, if you go to the airport, you see books on the shelf from prominent leaders, etc. Um, but, um, there’s not a lot on non-profit leadership. Um, so, you know, I kind of, when I was thinking about this, there were, there were 3 things that kind of were playing in my mind. The first is that leadership is different, and I’ve worked in the for-profit world. I’ve worked in the past for Goldman Sachs and as a corporate lawyer and I worked for government. And it really struck me that there are quite significant differences in many ways between kind of leadership in the, the business world and the government world, and, and, and that in a non-profit world, so that was one issue. um, another was there just wasn’t a lot of stuff out there, um, to my mind, uh, and had a look around. Um, and the third is that there is a real, um, desire for it, right? Whenever you get to a group of non-profit leaders together, we’re always talking about the challenges we face and the particular issues, and I’m sure on your podcast, you know, there’s kind of endless cycle of people saying, well, these are some of the real challenges and the hard things about leading non-profits. So kind of felt to me like there was, there was a, there was a gap to fill. You, uh, you said you, you’ve had a background in, uh, in law, in government, uh, in nonprofits. How did you find your way to, uh, to Freedom Fund? You fill in a little of the gaps of your, your, your history. It was a it was a it was a general path, you know, I started my, my professional career as a corporate lawyer in Australia, um, and then, um, at that time I’d done a bit of volunteering for a, a non-profit, a sail training non-profit, you know, one of these big old sailing ships that take, um, underprivileged youth out, so I had some non-profit experience, but I certainly wasn’t thinking of non-profits as a career. Um, but I, I was fortunate enough in my first couple of years as a lawyer to have something I think was a transformational experience, and that was my law firm offered to send one young lawyer to go work for the Legal aid commission for 6 months, so that was their pro bono efforts, right? We’ll, we’ll, we’ll offer you one of our young inexperienced lawyers. We’ll offload the pro bono on one, exactly, yeah, yeah. And so I applied for that and we had a big law firm. I thought lots and lots of people would be fighting for this position because you know, it’s a fascinating experience and I was the only one. Um, so I went off to work for Legal aid where you’re representing, you know, clients who can’t afford legal advice, um, so the, the some of the most, the least privileged in our society, um, often facing horrendous charges and, um, and it was just a real eye-opener to me about um how the system can really discriminate against people who are vulnerable and don’t have access to, Money, lawyers, etc. so that was quite interesting, after that, even though I continued as a corporate lawyer, I started volunteering commercial legal centers and, and my career went on for a little while, but um, I went to government. It was a kind of general progression, right, from corporate law into policy. I worked for the Attorney General, uh, the, the Federal Attorney General in Australia ended up being his chief of staff, so lots of interesting engagement on legal issues and legal policy, and I decided then that I wanted to kind of change my career, so I came to the US, I did a master’s degree in the US in public policy. And got my first job coming out of that, working for a, an amazing nonprofit based in Brussels called the International Crisis Group, which worked on conflicts around the world, like Afghanistan and Syria and Sudan and all those kinds of things. So that was the, the general path it took, took a little while, but I got there in the end. Interesting that, uh, at, at the big law firm, you were the only person to apply for the, for the 6 month pro bono position. That that’s kind of eye-opening about where you were versus what your real interests were. It, it probably tells you a few things about the incentives in these firms, right, you know, as in you’re on a track and, and the perception is that you need to kind of do certain things. Um, I, I had a slightly unusual upbringing, and maybe that made me more open to, um, to kind of jumping over to pro bono. My, my dad was a ship’s captain, so we spent 3 years while I was growing up on a 100 year old sailing ship sailing around the world. Um, so I kind of, Was more exposed to my parents taking risks, leaving their jobs, changing careers and all the rest of it, not that I’m saying this is the same thing, but I, I don’t know if that was, it’s always hard, I don’t know how it is with with the other guests that you get on, but you’re often in the non-profit space, you’re often, You want to tell a nice neat story, and there isn’t a nice neat story, there’s a whole lot of things going on here, isn’t there, but, but it was certainly one of the most influential decisions of my professional career, cos it just did open my eyes to different pathways and. And now I spend my whole time working on an issue of, you know, human trafficking one slavery, where, where it’s an issue where that’s illegal everywhere in the world, but the law doesn’t work. The rule of law is failing tens of millions of vulnerable people, so there’s still a connection with law, rule of law and all the rest of it. It’s just, uh, it’s just much more, um, it’s much more powerful. So your dad was a ship captain and, and your first nonprofit experience was volunteering on the three-masted 180 ft tall sailing ship uh for uh vulnerable under with training, training kids to work together, who came from underserved populations. So that, there, there’s a, there’s a little bit of a through line from your dad’s work to your first volunteer experience. Say a little more about the, was it pronounced the the Lewin was the name of the the the as in like Leeward is that Leeward versus win in um no, it’s actually Dutch for lion and, and it was named after Kate Leeuwin which was named by some of the early Dutch sailors who came out and they, I don’t know where it was, the 1700s and got blown off course, so yeah, so the Leeuw. Oh, OK. I didn’t have to do with Leeward and Winward. But now, interesting through line from your dad’s professional work to your first volunteer experience. Yeah, it, well, so he um so he was a, a ship’s captain, uh, you know, he worked for the merchant navy and all the rest of it, then did this job sailing the ship around, and then he became um the captain of this sail training ship. So I came over during my holidays and volunteered during my holidays because there was opportunities, so there was a very direct connection, um, and it was something that, you know, I found, um, really um powerful and moving and enjoyed it immensely, so. I was fortunate to have that opportunity. And your career has uh culminated in uh uh leadership of nonprofits. Yeah Uh, so the, the book focuses on, um, on, on three areas of, of leadership and organizational development, I guess, uh, organizational structure. And the purpose of your three P’s, the purpose of the people and the partners, um, why don’t you give an overview. I’d, I’d like to focus on the people, but give the overview of, of all three, the, the, how essential they are. Sure. I mean, so the, the, the, the central point of my book is that non-profits have this really powerful motivating cause, their purpose, right, to change the world in big ways or small, and by changing the world it could be changing your community, changing your, your, your country or working globally, but you’re there to make positive change, um, and your 662 and so is your impact, right? Um, and you need both, you need a powerful cause, and then you need to deliver on it, cos I think there are lots of non-profits that kind of have, The best of intentions, but may not be as good as delivering delivering on those intentions. So, so the central thesis is, purpose, turn it into effective impact, and then the framework I set up, which is um a pretty straightforward one is, is around purpose, people and partners, purpose is your um direction of travel. Uh, and I talked there about the mission of your organization and the impact and how you measure it, and the strategy being the connection between your um your mission and your impact. People is looking inwards, that’s looking at first and foremost, the CEOs, what are the priorities for the CEO? It’s looking at your team, um, and culture and all the things that go with team, it’s looking at your board. And then the third PE partners is looking outwards, you know, it’s, it’s your. If we use the lingo, it’s it’s your external stakeholders, but that, you know, that’s kind of jargon, isn’t it? So for me, it’s the communities you serve, first and foremost, right? Why do you exist? You, you’re serving a population, a community, um, they should be at the center of your work. Uh, it’s about your funders, about your funders, then it’s very hard to do the work. And also, I think a really important areas around peers and networks and those that are in the space with you and how you mobilize them. So, so those are the three Ps. That’s the quick, quick, quick gallop through the. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you. Um. So you’re the uh the section on, on people uh in the middle of the book starts with the CEO and the only thing I’d like to read is just uh uh uh this, this quote really struck me about leadership, uh, opens the, the, the, uh, the CEO chapter. Uh, from Mary Parker Follett, uh, uh, a 1924 book, Leadership is not defined by the exercise of power. But by the capacity to increase the sense of power among those led. The most essential work of the leader is to create more leaders. It’s inspirational. I, I, I, I, it’s aspirational and inspirational at the same time, um. Give us your, your, you know, I have some specific things I want to ask you about, but give us your overview of, of your, your role. You are the, you are the CEO of Freedom Fund. Um, give us your, um, give us your overview of what, what you’re supposed to be about. Sure, um, and I’ve, I’ve had the, I think it’s the benefit of being the CEO from day one of the organization. So we set up the organization 11 years ago, I was the first employee. Um, and there are advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is I, I, I had a fair say in what was gonna happen. Um, um, and then we build out the team and now we have, um, about 80 staff, um, so, um, some 10 years later, um. It’s How do I describe the role? I mean, there, there are many things going on, you know, I think there are many priorities and the priorities that I say for the CEO are the priorities I think for myself, you know, it’s about holding the vision for the organization, and the CEO, I think, I think what I would say to a lot of people is the CEO is often the only person in the organization that is looking over the horizon. And everyone else is kind of focused on specific tasks, you know, you’re running programs or you’re running your finance or dealing with HR, uh, working with volunteers, whereas CEO is always looking what comes next. Uh, I think of that particularly right now with everything that’s going on with kind of international finance and aid and all the rest of it, it’s a really turbulent time, so looking over there, um, it’s about motivating staff, it’s about kind of leading on strategy. Um, it’s, it’s making sure you focus on the stuff that really matters, not the stuff that you want to do or the stuff that you’re comfortable with, but the stuff that no one else can do, because I often feel like, if you run your team well, then the only decisions that come up to you are the really hard decisions because everyone else deals with the decisions that are easier to, to make, right? Um, so. That’s the way it should run, uh, and, and then finally the, the point is, if you’re fortunate enough to have a team, a leadership team, and so on, then, then it’s just really key as a leader to, to support that team and make sure it’s powerful and engaged and, and that you’re a a a a a really effective member of that team. And there’s lots to unpack on all of that, but, Um, they, yeah, that’s a quick run through of that. Yeah, we’re gonna get to a good bit of it. You, you, you, you devote a chapter to the team, which we, which we’ll talk about, uh, but, uh, just focused on the CEO and holding the vision. You, you said it, it was something I wanted to ask you about, expand on that a little more about hold the vision. So, I, I, I keep on talking about purpose being the central point of the organization. I mean, non-profits have lots of challenges, right? And we can talk a little about that with fundraising and the fact that you don’t earn income, people give you money and all the rest of it, and it’s really complicated. They have this superpower. Of purpose. It’s really powerful, right? I am deeply moved and inspired by the work we do to support some of the most vulnerable people that are being exploited, uh, you know, for, or at risk of sex trafficking or forced labor, or bonded labor or forced marriage. And, and so the vision that we have is about how do we have the biggest impact on those communities that we’re serving. And, and I think if you harness that, it’s really powerful for the team and the work, and particularly when things are challenging or difficult, I kind of keep on reminding people of the power of what we do and the importance and the privilege of what we do, um. They’re difficult times, or or when COVID hit, right, and when COVID hit and the organization’s reeling and there’s a lot of uncertainty, it was really powerful to say to the team, but look at the communities we serve, they are hit so much harder than we are, and we have such an important role to play in supporting them during this completely uncertain time and it was a really good. Way of mobilizing the team and get everyone focused at a difficult time, and I think it can be really powerful. So, so that to me is the vision. What are we always about? Bring it back to that. Always, if you have problems at work or if there are staffing issues or internal discord, you start with, what are we here for? And then we’ll work on everything else. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money, but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s DonorBox, a comprehensive suite of tools, services, and resources that gives fundraisers just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs, helping you, help others. Visit donorbox.org to learn more. Now back to Nonprofit leadership for current and aspiring. Are you, uh, facing a lot of that, uh, a lot of challenge now with the, the, uh, USAID funding cuts and uncertainties and I imagine a lot of the organizations you fund are also funded by USAID. So this is all you’re living through this again, it’s COVID 5 years ago to the month actually, um, now 5 years later, you know, this, this funding uncertainty and, and turmoil. Yeah, there’s a huge amount of uncertainty, and it’s not just US government funding, you know, the Brits have announced that they’re cutting their foreign aid funding, the um the Dutch have cut their foreign aid funding, the Swiss have announced cuts to there, so there’s a, there’s a, um, we, we get um some funding from, it wasn’t USAID, it’s from the State Department, which was frozen for about 3 weeks but has been unfrozen. Um, and that we use to fund some 30 organizations on the ground, so we’re, we’re very fortunate compared to many, um, and historically trafficking has been largely a bipartisan, anti-trafficking work’s been largely bipartisan, so, so we hope that that will continue to be the case. Um, um, but it creates massive uncertainty, particularly on the ground where we don’t work in isolation, we work with local partners, so we fund some 150 local partners, but if, if, Um, aid is cut from any government that supports frontline organizations. Everyone becomes a bit more vulnerable, right? So, and for work on trafficking and slavery, vulnerability is the proxy for slavery. It’s vulnerable populations that are preyed upon, so if communities become more vulnerable because aid has been cut from various quarters, um, then the risk of trafficking and slavery grows, so even if we’re not directly impacted on the aid cuts, The demand for what we do is only going to grow because there is going to be increasing vulnerability um as, Rich countries withdraw somewhat from the aid space, at least temporarily. Are you finding yourself having to reassure your own staff of 80 some, again, you know, holding the vision for them? Yeah, absolutely, and, and, and reminding them, you know, one where we’re, we’re in a solid financial position, um, and so we’ve been able to continue supporting partners and the work will continue. Um, but, um, talking to staff about these scenarios, and it’s not so much just reassuring them, it’s, it’s giving them renewed purpose, right, because everyone struggles when they see what’s happening on the ground and greater vulnerability and you know, this work is emotionally very, very draining, and when you see um, Groups of people that are even more vulnerable to trafficking, it can be really tough, so it’s getting everyone aligned around the purpose and saying right, here’s our chance to have even greater impact, uh, doing the stuff that we care about. It kind of leads to, uh, leading on strategy, which, uh, you, you, you have several interviews through the book which I, I appreciate they, they add, they add color and, and, and depth and, uh, you one of your interviews is with, uh, uh, a man named LeFevre who says that, uh, leading uh they sort of expressing strategy is more of an inspirational sketch than a blueprint. So please uh say more about the, the CEO’s role in, in, you know, take from holding the vision to execution, to leading on strategy. Yeah, sure, so strategy, I kind of see strategy as the, the pathway, the route, the, the map that you set out that gets you from your, your vision, your purpose to the impact that you want to achieve, right? You kind of say, well, we’re here to end modern slavery or make a big measurable difference to modern slavery in the regions we work, and we can kind of say what that means in terms of percentage reductions and all the rest of it. So how do we get there? Um, and I think, I think in our space, there’s often a lot of overthinking of strategy, and I, I’m still trying to articulate this more clearly. I think, I think one of the big things that non-profits struggle with is that we don’t have the feedback mechanisms and the price signals that you have if you’re a business. Uh, if you’re a business and you’ve got a plan. And it’s not working, you know, pretty quickly because your customers are leaving you or your income is falling, and you have very strong price signals and feedback mechanisms that non-profits don’t really have, right? Um, because you’re doing a program and you think it might achieve something and it may or may not be, but it’s often very messy, and so, so, um, so strategy is important because you’ve gotta be really thoughtful about the plan that you have. And you’ve got to find ways of, of reflecting on it and changing or adapting as, as, as things progress, and so that’s what Matthew means about, You know, kind of sketching out a way of challenging, and I, I have another quote in there about a guy who kind of talks about, you know, it’s more of strategy is more a kind of a GPS sat-nav, you know, than map, because you have to adjust as you move along. um, and I think nonprofits too often can kind of think, OK, there’s a magic in a strategy and we’ll spend a year and um investing in a strategy and we’ll come up with a really detailed plan. And we’ll stick to that plan because we’ve all signed off on it, even if the world changes, uh, and I, I talk in the book about, you know, imagine, imagine you’re working on, Mental health issues, um before COVID, and you’ve got a nice plan and your income’s been going up each year for the last 4 or 5 years and you’ve got a good strategy to engage companies to become sponsors and partners. And then COVID hits. And two things happen, right? One is, the demand for your services just skyrockets, right, if you’re involved in mental health during COVID and all. And the other is your funders are probably initially at least running 100 miles an hour because, you know, the companies are really worried about their own financial bottom line, so often we’re drawing back from, from funding commitments and so on. So demand goes up, your income goes down, your strategy is out the door, right, and not every component of it, but I mean any detailed year by year plan is out the door. Now hopefully, And, and I talk about one of the things that I think is really key in the strategy is your theory of change. And, and theory of change often sounds very jargonistic, and I don’t like jargon, but theory of change is your insight. It’s like, what is special about what we do that is going to translate into the change that we want to see. And, and I, I think it’s really important because often, The work that we do doesn’t directly deliver the results that we want to see. Um, and I think one example might be working for a think tank, right, now if you work for a think tank and you’re producing research reports, Your objective is not to publish reports, usually, right, that’s a, that’s a, that’s an output, that’s a tool to achieve. Usually your objective is to change policy or to change behavior in some way. And so your theory of change is not our think tank exists to publish 100 reports a year and to get 20 opinion pieces and papers. It’s our theory of change is that the most effective way to change policy is to produce thoughtfully well reduced, uh, well, well researched reports and go and advocate on those reports to policy makers and influence them to change what they do. And, and because that’s your theory of change, while you may not be able to guarantee all of the results, you can at least try and track whether or not it’s working. Are your reports influential? Are people referring to them? Are they being covered in the press? Do policymakers refer to them? Do they change policy? And so, so for me, strategy is kind of trying to get the fundamentals in place. What is your purpose, what is your, what is your, your insight that will get you to your objective and what is your objective? And then keep on, keep on looking at that and thinking about that as times and things change. You also spend time talking about the CEO’s role in in fundraising. Which can, ah, can be fraught with, with some, some founders especially who, uh, may have a lot of passion. And zeal about the work that they’re doing, but not really have a solid plan for how to fund it. So, share your thinking on the, the CEO’s role and, and need to embrace fundraising. Yeah, well, the thing about nonprofits is. For most nonprofits, You, your income comes from people giving you money, you know, you raise it from individuals or grants or governments. I mean sometimes you provide services and have a contract with government, but leaving that aside, you know, most of it is raising money from people who are giving to you, um, and, and that can be really tricky. Um, again, I kind of, you know, an example I use is, imagine if you’re a business, And you have a really good strategy and you execute really well and you’ve worked out your niche and you’re operating much more effectively than your competitors, you probably have people coming and wanting to invest, right, because it’s like, wow, this is a great business and it’s doing really well and we can make lots of money and all the rest of it where, I imagine you’re in a nonprofit and you’re doing really well on your strategy and, Um, you’re kind of more effective than your peers and your competitors. Well, you’ll often have donors, particularly foundations, say, mate, you’re doing just fine, you don’t need our support anymore, we can go fund others because look, you’ve done such a good job. And so it’s almost as if your success can be a, a contribute to reduced income. I know these are particular circumstances, but in my world, this is very real. Um, and so I think it’s part of one of the interviews where someone says that it’s easy to find funding in the first few years because there’s excitement and you have a, you have a, a new plan, a new model, but, but it becomes difficult after like year 5 and on. Yeah. And, and that’s often the case, you know what I mean, and it, and it kind of varies in various ways, but certainly, you know, when we started the Freedom Fund 10 years ago, initial enthusiasm and great interest, uh, and lots of people, and it’s new and it’s interesting, and, and it certainly helped us mobilize great funders, most of whom have stayed with us. So full credit to them. Um, so, but the way I look at it from the CEO is, you know, your organization can’t do anything without funding. And so it is an absolute priority for the CEO to make sure that you are getting the funding that you need, um, and increasing it over time if that’s what you want. Now, it doesn’t mean you have to do it yourself personally, but to be honest, usually the best spokesperson for an organization, a non-profit is the CEO. Um, and again, particularly if you’re raising grants from, from high net worth funders or from foundations, um, people want to hear from the CEO. Uh, and there are some CEOs who kind of think, well this is beneath me, right? I’m really interested in the, the programs and, and the, the, the real nitty gritty of the work. Well, sure, if you’ve built a team and you’re managing to raise the funding, great, but you won’t have programs if you don’t bring the funding in. So to my mind, the role of the CEO is to make sure all of the relevant bits are working and if fundraising is key. Then that’s where you spend your effort, and I would spend over 50% of my time doing fundraising and outreach because that’s where I can add the most value to my organization. I’ve got amazing program people. I’ve got people who know much more about modern slavery and human trafficking than I do, who’ve spent their lives working on these issues. I’ve got, you know, wonderful, Kind of finance teams and HR teams and all the rest of it, where I can add is selling the vision, building relationships, explaining to people why they should give us a chunk of funding, and for this issue, rather than to either a peer organization or a completely different issue. Um, so I think, um, it doesn’t always mean the CEO has to do it all, but the CEO is responsible. Uh, cos there’s nothing worse than being all virtuous about, well, I’m gonna focus on this work and find that you’ve got less and less money and you’re doing less and less work. So you devote, you think it’s more than half your time to, to fundraising? Fundraising, talking about the work, selling the message, it’s not all you know, it’s not all meetings, meetings with donors, right, it’s, it’s, it’s talking about the power of the issue, going to conferences where, where it’s appropriate, um, yeah, yeah. By the way, you, you, uh, mentioned your disdain for jargon, uh, here on nonprofit radio, we have jargon jail. You’re not likely to be, uh, you’re not likely to be subject to because if we’re, uh, we’re we’re, we’re simpatico on not liking it. It’s time for Tony’s steak too. Thank you, Kate. Gratitudes. I’ve been doing more of this gratitude practice. Well I’m actually saying out loud things that I am grateful for in my life. I do it usually in the mornings when I’m waking up, and not every morning, but A bunch of mornings and occasionally at night. Uh, and I just, I, I’m sharing that I do it because I’m encouraging you to do the same. It’s kind of especially with all the anxiety and chaos and turmoil and. The storm around us, not only in the nonprofit community, but just in our country. I think it helps to ground, at least it helps me ground myself, that there are things to be enormously grateful for. So I Say out loud, I’m grateful for my family. Except the the part where Kate lives in New Jersey, that that there’s an exception, but uh other other family, all, all, all other fam, no, no, of course, all my family, um, my wife Amy. The beautiful place that I’m privileged to live in uh on the beach, my clients, uh, friends, you know, and I name friends that are that are on my mind when you start doing this. The list grows long, and you realize that there’s so much in your life to be grateful for. I guess, again, I, I should say that’s what happens to me. I, I hope that that will happen for you also, that you start naming people and the names just keep coming and the uh the other, the other folks and and maybe even companies, you know, whatever it is that you’re grateful for, uh, just keep coming and coming and and that’s what I find so. It’s really valuable to me. I encourage you to try it. It’s quite simple, just saying out loud the things that you’re grateful for. And that is Tony’s take too. Kate I think that’s a great way to start your day and even end it. Do it both in the morning and the evening, cause then you’re starting on good thoughts and then you’re also ending on good thoughts. Excellent. I, I agree. All right. You could do both. Absolutely. The more, the more gratitude that you recognize, uh, the better. You could, sure, book into your day with gratitude. And, yeah. We’ve got Boou but loads more time. Here’s the rest of nonprofit leadership for Current and aspiring with Nick Groo. You spent some time on leadership styles, and I’d like you to share what your uh what your advice is around soft power. Yeah, so there are lots of different styles of leadership as anyone who has worked for anyone or anyone who has led will understand, um, and, and certainly I’ve been on a journey with my own leadership style, um, and I think often lots of new non-profit leaders are. Um, you know, I, I’m sometimes asked what’s the, what’s, what’s the one of the best pieces of leadership advice that you could give someone, and, you know, one of my pieces of advice will be the, the skills and the behaviors that get you into leadership positions aren’t often the skills and behaviors that make you a really good leader. Uh, and in my case, you know, I was very happy to make decisions, and when I was a #2, my boss kind of loved it because she would throw things to me and I’d sort them out and kind of barrel through. But if you bring that approach when you’re the CEO you’re not building a team, you’re not bringing people along with you, you’re not, you’re not giving people the space to kind of be their best selves, um, and so my learning over time has been, and it’s still an ongoing process, you know, the kind of approach that I think for them, in most cases, not always, that’s really effective as a leader is bringing a coaching approach to leadership. Uh, kind of giving people the space to work out how they can do the job most effectively, asking questions, listening, providing some guidance, but not just charging in and making decisions. Um, and with new non-profit leaders in particular, you know, particularly if you’re a bit insecure, it’s your first time in a CEO job, you’ve, you’ve maybe been recruited from, from the organization internally and so you’ve moved a step above your peers and, you know, you can, it can be really tough, and you’re kind of, and again, speaking from experience, you sometimes respond by like micromanaging everything and, you know, kind of making sure that you’re on top of everything and, Second guessing everyone’s decisions, that’s not good leadership. Uh, if you, if you start jumping in and making decisions for everyone, you know what happens very quickly, no one makes decisions, because it’s like, well, Nick’s gonna decide this, so why should I spend all this time working out the very best approach on this issue, be it how to approach a fun a funder or, How to design a program if Nick’s just gonna jump in and make up his own mind, and then everything ends up being elevated to Nick. Yeah, and then suddenly you say, well, I’m the only person that can do this, because look, it’s all coming up to me, you know, it’s a kind of self reinforcing cycle of, of, uh, narcissism. Um, you share a good story, uh, uh, one that was revealing to you, uh, also from, uh, from the pandemic about when you were at uh International Crisis Group. Why don’t you share that little story, yeah. So that was, it wasn’t um it wasn’t the pandemic, it was the financial crisis, so another great recession, sorry, yeah, yeah, so, so, but, but, but similar, similar and you know, what happened was that basically we knew that our income was going down by at least 10%. Um, and I worked with it, so I was number 2 there, and I worked with the CEO and we went to the board and said we need to cut by at least 10%. The board said, yep, off you go. And we, um, we were heading, so we had about 120 staff then maybe, uh, spread all around the world, you know, Crisis Group’s are an amazing organization. And once a year we’d bring the top 30 staff or so together at a senior staff retreat, and this just happened to be about a week after the board meeting. And so my boss said, OK, well, we need to now work out how to deliver on these cuts, and, and I, um, and he gave me a lot of responsibility for this, and I thought, well, there’s a couple of things we wanna do. One is we need to move fairly quickly with cuts because the quicker we make cuts, the quicker we’ll enjoy the savings, right? If you take a year to implement your cuts, well, there’s a year you’ve spent the money that you could otherwise save. And then the other thing I thought was, you know, instead of just squeezing everywhere and making, we should, Use this opportunity to cut a couple of areas deeply that are just perhaps less effective or not the same priority, and both of those acceptable propositions, you know, in and around, but, so I then just decided where this was gonna happen and I kind of briefed my boss and then I kind of went up to the division heads and said, hey, you know, we had to the cut, so here’s what we’re gonna do. And surprise, surprise, they, they, they weren’t very happy about the process, um, and you’ve got this convening now, everybody gets together and they start to conspire. So, so I managed to, I, I, I did achieve one thing which they managed to unite pretty well everyone against me, you, um, you know, so it was great morale building because there was a coherence, um, and, and they actually called a meeting that night that me and the CFO weren’t invited to and the um, And the next morning, we, we had our staff rebellion, and they said, well look, we, we don’t want you, the CEO to run this process because obviously it’s not being run very well, and my boss, who’s a former Foreign Minister of Australia, who wasn’t not noted for his patience, handled this remarkably well, and he was smart enough to understand, OK, well let’s just play this cool, and so he said fine, let’s do this, and, and the staff said right, we wanna do this properly and we wanna workshop, you know, we’ll sit down and program teams and, We’ll sit down with Nick and we’ll sit down with the CFO and see if, if there are better ways of making savings. And so it was somewhat humiliating, um, and but it was also really informative in a number of ways. And first of all, everyone accepted the need to make cuts, so it wasn’t like saying we don’t need to make cuts, you’re, you know. And then of course, the wisdom of the group between them could identify areas where we could make easy savings. That had very little impact. I mean, to take one example, we used to publish about 100 reports a year and we used to send them out to, you know, each report to targeted audience, maybe 2000, 3000 copies. We didn’t need to send that many out, but we’d just been doing it for years, and that cost $400,000 a year. And by cutting it down to maybe 20 copies per to absolutely essential and putting a bit of more work, we saved $350,000 right? I hadn’t thought of it. I haven’t thought of it. Um, um, and so we did some other things, I mean, the organization did get squeezed because people offered up salary and all the rest of it, but perhaps the most striking thing about it was, OK, we came out with a plan, and we ended up cutting by 15% because people had offered up instead of the kind of 10, 11% that we’d we’d targeted, which served us very well at that time. Um, and 2 years later, our income was significantly higher than when we’d gone then pre-cuts. So we cut deeply, um, we rallied around together, and then over the next 18 months or so, we managed to raise significant additional funding, so we ended up being in a better position than we had been at the time when we, when we were worried about the funding cuts. So, I learned, I mean, you learn from your mistakes, don’t you, more than you, you learn from your successes, ah. And I just learned that um you know, powers of teams need to proper process, need to consult, and, and, and don’t mistake these things, you know, consultation doesn’t mean surrendering necessarily uh decision making authority to the crowd, unless you handle it really badly. It just means giving people an opportunity to provide input and feel heard and and often, and usually they have really good things to say. That story of what not to do just uh sort of exemplifies why I, I admire the book. There’s a lot of introspection in the book. You, you routinely say, you know, you’re still learning, you’re a work in progress, uh particularly uh with the, the chapter I want to talk about with, uh, diversity, equity and inclusion. But throughout, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re honest, you’re open. You’re vulnerable. Uh, uh, I admire that. Uh, uh, uh, a lot of folks see vulnerability as a weakness, and I’ve always thought it, it, it’s a, a sign of, uh, a strong leader. Well it’s very kind of you and it, it, it also, you know, on the feedback, and I’ve got lots of lovely feedback on the book and and probably the feedback that resonates most and the most consistent feedback is, well, we really appreciate it because you know, you’re not saying that CEO has to be this perfect, you know, infallible model, right, because we know it’s really hard and hearing other people say that they struggle with this is a real gift. Uh, and again, for, for young or new non-profit leaders, I think that’s often the thing they’re struggling with the most. It’s like damn, I’m in charge of this organization, it’s really hard and I don’t have anyone to turn to and I’m terrified I’m gonna make mistakes, and I can’t admit that I get anything wrong because everyone will judge me, um, so. You spend time on, uh, self-care too for the CEO, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s funny you, uh, you open that section, and you talk about, uh, overwork, micromanagement, your loneliness, and I’m thinking this, why would I keep, why, why would I aspire to leadership? This sounds like a suicide path to, or a path to self-destruction. Um, so, so, but there are way, you know, of course, methods of overcoming strategies for overcoming. The the negatives like, like mentoring and peer, peer groups and coaching, um, and your own mental health. So say, say something about the, the, the essential self-care uh uh uh uh for a CEO to before you can care for others. Uh, well, the starting point is. It’s a tough and lonely job. I mean, it’s a wonderful job. I love my job, right, and I love being in charge, and I love working with a team, but it is tough and lonely, and I, I thought about it, uh, particularly when crises happen, right? And so COVID was an obvious one, but even now with kind of turmoil with financial assistance all around the world and all the rest of it. And there’s this, and, and, and you feel a sense, an intense sense of responsibility. Like if I get this wrong, and if I do badly, It impacts on the lives, first and foremost of the 80 or so staff that we have, very directly, right, who’s, it’s their jobs and their livelihoods and all around. I feel a huge sense of responsibility, but then it, it packs on the 150 grassroots organizations that we work with, and then the millions and millions of people that are served by those. So, you, if you sit back and think about this, it can, can be somewhat overwhelming, um, and, And then also there are these drivers, so one is, Leadership can be lonely in any organization, not just non-profits and business, uh, because, The buck stops with you and so you’ve got to make the final decision and um and even if you don’t make decisions, that’s a decision, so you know, you, you, you’ve you’ve got the responsibility, um, um, you often don’t have people that you feel comfortable turning to and but that’s something we, we can talk about, um, and so, so it can just be really, really challenging. Um, and then, again, particularly working with non-profits, there’s always this sense of, well, we exist for a, for a bigger purpose and so if I just work harder, we can achieve more. I mean, how, how do you stand by, I think of people working, In Humanitarian disaster zones in Sudan or where we’re just seeing, you know, horrendous things happen right now. And malnutrition, babies dying and all the rest of it, and how, how do you um, How do you not kind of think, well, if I just work a bit harder, um, we can do more. So, so lots of reasons why it can be overwhelming, and I think the starting point is for CEOs to think, OK, well, I do no one any favors if I burn out, right, so stop trying to prove yourself when it’s not being effective, right, if you’re working 80, 90 hours, weeks consistently, you’re not gonna do anyone any good, you’re not doing your job properly, you just aren’t, because you’re not effective. Um, so stop making yourself into a martyr, work out how you can support your own mental health, wellbeing so that you are just a better leader. Um, and then there are strategies for it, right? You can establish, I think one of the best things that’s happened in my non-profit career is kind of small peer groups. Uh, I have a wonderful friend, she was, she was #2. At a um at an organization, um, and she kind of said, why don’t a few of us come together once every 9 months or so and just share some of the challenges that were going on. And, and we just got, initially we set these kind of days and we’d kind of have a tight program of what we were gonna talk through and all the rest of it. In the end it just became a sharing opportunity and we’d go out for dinner and we’d just be sharing all of the challenges and, you know, these are the challenges we’re all kind of around the number 2 level, so often it was like these are the challenges we had with my boss, right, um, but also, you know, have you had this problem with funders or impact or whatever, and it’s just a huge relief to be able to share, um. And then personally, I also, you know, I try and meditate, I try and stay fit and healthy, I try and exercise, um, all as a way of just dealing with, with the pressures and, and stresses of running an organization. You spend time, uh, you have a chapter devoted to the team as part of the, the, the people, there’s the CEO and then the team, uh, you, I think a lot of insightful advice around culture and so talk about culture, psychological safety, how important that is as a part of culture for the, for the team that uh that that you’ve built that you invested in. Please share there. Sure, so, I think one of the things with teams that, Some non-profit leaders don’t, some leaders don’t understand is. Teams are an amazing resource. It’s not that teams exist for you to issue commands and then just to execute, right, because if that’s what, if that’s how you see your team and that’s how you’re doing it, you’re missing out on the real richness and power of a team. And to me, the best thing about a team is that I get access to really smart ideas from smart engaged people and can pick and choose these ideas and work together, but you know, and come up with better decisions. And, and it is so helpful for me when I say, hey, I was thinking about this, and, you know, I’m gonna do this. Now if, if the team wasn’t engaged, they say, Sure, Nick, great, whatever, off you go. Whereas, in fact, they’ll say, oh, that’s interesting, but what about this or what about this? And then I can step back and say, well, actually that’s a really good idea, let’s explore that. And, and as a leader, it’s just a huge benefit because I’ve got other people’s wisdom, and then we’ll work together. Uh, and I just don’t understand why people don’t understand the value of being able to draw on all of this expertise if you run your team well and build an effective team. But that won’t happen unless you build an effective team. So if you run it in a hierarchical way and you just, as we said earlier, make all the decisions, and no one’s gonna offer up any ideas because Nick’s gonna say, uh, you know. Um, so that’s one point, but it’s not enough just to kind of not, not listen to people’s ideas. You actually got to actively create a space for ideas to come up because you may say you’re really, you may say to your team, give me your ideas, I really want to hear them, and we’re gonna, but if you can’t. poo poo a couple of those ideas. Nice try, but really, you know, they’re not going to offer up their ideas in the future. So this is the idea of psychological safety, right? Fancy word, jargons, but, but the idea is pretty straightforward. It’s you, you show that you are actually willing to hear ideas and be contradicted. Right? So you start off a conversation by saying, well, I got this wrong last time we did this. Anyone got any idea, you know, so you’re admitting, you’re admitting that you don’t get it right all the time, it creates space. Someone puts up an idea and you say, this is really, you don’t have to say it’s brilliant and all the rest of it, but say I really appreciate that. And let’s draw in some more ideas. You don’t have to grab everyone’s ideas. You create a, so, and this is all about culture as well. So, you know, a culture of psychological safety means the leader signaling very clearly that they are open to people expressing views and a range of views. And I thought, I referred to it in the book, a study that this all comes, well, it it it it’s all demonstrated very powerfully in a, in a research um study that Google did when it was trying to work out what are the most effective functioning teams, and it, Google has more information on its staff than anyone ever has on their staff, right? It’s a data company. And so he was trying to work out, OK, we’ve got these really high performing teams, we know they’re really high performing, what makes them distinct from other teams, and now we’re trying to work it out, is it where all the team members are are alike, are homogeneous, or is it where all the team members are really diverse and different, or is it where the team members like hanging out, not just at work, but after work, or is it where the team members are all acutely focused. And none of these really predicted the effective teams, it was the teams that had psychological safety. Um, that, and so they kind of helped popularize this concept of basically just giving people space to input and contribute and be thoughtful and drawing on the wisdom of the group. Um, so, so that’s what I see as a really important part of culture, and I think if you’re going to be intentional about it and culture across the organization, you know, as a leader you have to think about culture all the time. Uh, and to me, culture for companies is like character for individuals, um, and it just doesn’t happen, it’s developed, right, and I think one of the ways you develop culture, and it can’t just be the leader, but the leader obviously sets the tone, uh, is there are values that you, as an organ that the organization cares about. Um, for individuals, their virtues, they’re good values, right? Values that advance the purpose of the organization, it’s not just enough to say we care about these things, you have to turn them into habits or into norms. And so it’s turning values into norms, and you do that by identifying things that matter and then consistently implementing or behaving accordingly, and that becomes a norm or a habit, and, and it’s values and norms that make up culture. Um, and so our staff. You you say behaving accordingly. And you, you talked, uh, throughout the book about modeling the behaviors that you know are important in, in yourself doing, as you said, you know, being open, for instance, being not, not uh negating ideas when you ask for people’s ideas, but you know, throughout, you talk about modeling behaviors. Everyone watches the CEO, right, and it always surprises me how much they watch the CEO, right, and I shouldn’t be surprised, I’ve been a CEO now for 12 years, but it’s still, everyone watches the CEO, so everything you do, and it’s pointless saying this is what kind of organization we are and we’re, I have an open door policy when in fact you’re slamming a door on everyone, uh, and people work it out pretty quickly, right, uh, I treat people well when I don’t, or whatever, um, and so, you know, I mean one thing that I do, That I think is quite useful um for us in building culture. I used to do quarterly CEO calls where I’d just have an all-staff call and I’d update everyone, and I’d be pretty open about what happened at the board, and I thought, OK, well this is a good way of keeping people informed. And then I’d ask for questions at the end and I’d get no questions, right, no one was gonna put up their hand virtually in front of 70, 80 people and ask questions and, and, And so I thought we’re not using this as effectively as possible, so then we changed the system where one staff member gets to interview me on these calls. And they’re allowed to ask anything they want, and they know they are because they’ve seen other people have been allowed to ask me anything that they want, and I will ask the questions. And more importantly, they can solicit questions from any of the staff that come into them, so I don’t know where the questions are coming from. That’s the part that I love, that you don’t know the questions in advance. It’s, it’s total vulnerability. Yeah, and, but, but people generally, one they respect it and even if they, you know, I mean I I just did one a couple of weeks ago, and, you know, there were questions about, um, Impact of the financial crisis and are, are we gonna be making people redundant, what impact does it make on partners? There are questions about my mental health and how is, how is I managing the stress and all the rest of it. Um, and these are great questions, because then I can, I can then share my thoughts, and it’s not me just kind of delivering from on top what I think people want to hear, it’s being responsive to questions. There are questions about, um, you know, our culture or learning and development within the organization. And I think it’s just super helpful to have that conversation, uh, and hopefully contributing to a culture where people feel like, OK, well we can ask these questions. Time. The DEI work. You, uh, you say you were initially, uh, nervous about. And, uh, and you make the point here, as I said, said earlier, it’s it’s, it’s a work in progress and, and we’ve had a good number of uh guests through the years, um, you know, emphasizing that it’s a journey, it’s not a check box, um, but, you know, talk a little about your own, uh, again, some introspection, some vulnerability, which again, I admire, uh, your own initial, uh, anxiety about You know, embarking on a, on a, on a process to, to be more diverse, equitable, inclusive. Yeah, so, Freedom Fund started 11 years ago, so, um, you know, when we started and we were recruiting, and we were based in London, initially, even though we work in countries like Ethiopia and Kenya, and Bangladesh and Brazil, um, and recruiting really talented staff, and it turned out at the end of year one or so, we had half a dozen staff and they were all white. I think all were university graduates, all deeply expert and knowledgeable. Um, and, and, you know, hugely talented, but it wasn’t a particularly diverse, um, kind of group of people, um, and particularly given that, as I said, we’re working with and partnering with organizations in Ethiopia, and Brazil and elsewhere, uh, and raising money and getting it to frontline partners and, um, and, This is before Black Lives Matter and before a lot of the debates happened, and in fact my initial kind of focus on DEI was more on my board, where we had a board of 8 and there were 2 women and 6 men. And so I thought, well, you know, we need a, a more balanced gender breakdown on a board. So I was trying to recruit the board, and the board is much more diverse, um, in various ways, and the organization was always diverse on gender, but, you know, often, often gender was a, and still is an aspect of diversity that seems to be overlooked these days when we’re looking at other characteristics. Um, and then, um, when, uh, there was a lot more focus on, On issues around, um, race and ethnicity and so on, particularly after George Floyd and, you know, the Freedom Fund works on slavery and, and there’s arguments about structural racism and being a legacy of slavery, and staff were just saying, well, what are we doing about this? And so my nervousness was in part because I could see that, um, some of these debates, Were being badly handled internally around um how, what does diversity, equity inclusion, or what does it mean to be more diverse and more inclusive as an organization. Some of them were being really badly handled and were tearing organizations apart. Um, and, and that was happening for a lot of reasons, and, and it could happen for the best of intentions, right, that people care about these issues and just can’t converse. But often, you know, leadership people might say, well, you know, we’re doing amazing work, so why are you looking internally, right? Look at what we do, we’re serving all of these underserved populations, stop, you know, it’s not about being internally focused, it’s about doing the work, and then, Staff could legitimately say well hold it, you know, we’re not representative and we don’t, and we’re not particularly inclusive and so I think, but, But also, and this is, OK, this is, we, we can have this discussion, I think, you know, it’s not just about leadership failing. I think, I think there were aspects of the way this was handled where staff who didn’t have a lot of power thought that they could use this as a very powerful tool to engage on issues that they wouldn’t otherwise do. And, and that can be really destructive, like if you kind of insist that, I don’t know, we have to change all of our policies because this is what we think. You should be doing in terms of pay policy or recruitment policy and you’ve got no responsibility for running the organization as a whole, and if you don’t manage this debate well, it can just be extremely destructive. We um, we had a a long internal discussion about this, uh, and so lots of working groups because I thought we’ve got to live our values and talk it all through and um and it wasn’t easy, um. But, but through the process, I, you know, I, I started doing my own reading and, and, and a few things were pretty obvious. One is, um, yeah, I keep on talking about teams and drawing on a pair of teams, well, if your team isn’t, if you’re drawing your team from a fairly narrow pool or not a broad enough pool, you are not accessing the best talent, right? You are not accessing the people who might know the most about the issues and when you’re working on slavery, people who know most about what is the living experience of exploitation are those that have, Been through it or come from the communities that are hugely vulnerable to it. And so if you’re just talking about a position, a situation of expertise, then you have to be drawing from the communities you serve more effectively, and you have to be drawing from the regions that you work that are closest to, uh, the places you serve, and that was just a no-brainer, so, um, and, and then again, there’s an issue of being reflective of, Um, the community you live in. Um, so we went through a process, I think that we ended up in a very good place where it was just clear that we could do better in drawing from all of the people who could help us be a better organization and be more effective, um, and be more knowledgeable about the partners we’re working with, the communities we’re working with, the issues that we’re working with. Um, and so I’m quite happy where we’ve gone, but I think, I think it’s really, Tragic that people have turned DEI into a punching bag, and they’ve turned it into a, an identity issue in a way that is not helpful, and this is people on all sides of the debate where your starting point should be, Who’s expert, how do we have the best possible team, how do we have the greatest impact by bringing in the people who know the most about the issue, uh, without being pro forma about identity one way or another. Um, so I don’t know if that’s clear and, you know, as you can see it’s something I still kind of, yeah, working my way through, but what do you see as the CEO’s role in this? how do you best facilitate? Well, it took me a while to work this out, but the way you facilitate it is exactly the way I started this whole conversation. How does this advance our purpose? Right, how, how do we, how do we become a more it doesn’t advance our purpose to say we must recruit from certain populations or other just for the sake of it. How do we get better or we’re an anti-slavery organization, right? How are we better at our anti-slavery work? Well, by having people who are deeply knowledgeable about what that means. Now, that means a whole bunch of things, right, it can mean people from the communities or the countries that we’re working, but it also can mean the best anti-slavery experts who may or may not come from particular regions, but it’s bringing a whole team together, not just kind of having a single lens of what it means. How does that advance? So, and and framing the discussions when they get heated. How does this advance, you know, it’s not about your ideology or your views. Tell me how this advances what we’re trying to do. And then let’s work backwards from that. Um, and so that’s, that would be my biggest learning was like, start with purpose, always. Tell us how this gets us there. Tell us why this will make us a better organization and a more effective organization. You say it’s the right thing to do, well, obviously, if it’s the right thing to do, it advances our purpose, how does it advance our purpose? Nick, that’s a beautiful 360 from where we began, purpose and, and holding the vision. Thank you. Thank you. So folks, the, the book is how to lead nonprofits, turning purpose into impact to change the world. Um, I think it’s a, it’s a very compassionate, uh, introspective guidebook for, for leaders and aspiring leaders. So check, check the book, please. Uh, Nick Grono, you’ll find him on LinkedIn. Nick, thank you so much for sharing all your thinking, your wisdom over uh over all these years. Very grateful. Thank you. Tony, thanks for having me on, thanks for a really wonderful rich discussion. It’s my pleasure. Next week, your improved messaging. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, Donorbox.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.
When the chaos is the point, let’s help you avoid getting overwhelmed or checking out. Jennifer Walter, a Swiss sociologist and mental health coach, has strategies to gain agency, recharge and build resilience. You need to be good to yourself first, then you can help others. Her practice is at JenniferWalter.me.
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I hope you remember that I wished you happy Saint Patrick’s Day on time, not a week late. I’m quite proud of that. Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d come down with catalepsy if I lapsed into a trance because you told me you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer Kate with what’s on the menu. Hey Tony, I hope our listeners are hungry for. Mental wellness among the chaos. When the chaos is the point, let’s help you avoid getting overwhelmed or checking out. Jennifer Walter, a Swiss sociologist and mental health coach, has strategies to gain agency, recharge, and build resilience. You need to be good to yourself first, then you can help others. Her practice is at Jennifer Walter.me. On Tony’s take 2. Has from the gym semper fi. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. DonorBox, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, DonorBox.org. Here is mental wellness among the chaos. It’s a pleasure today to welcome Jennifer Walter. She is a Swiss sociologist, mental health advocate, and equal parts rebel and marshmallow. She admires potty humor. Through her podcast, the scenic route. And her coaching and consulting work, she’s making the world a gentler place one conversation at a time. You’ll find Jennifer on LinkedIn and her practice is at Jennifer Walter.E. Jennifer Walter, welcome to nonprofit Radio. Thank you so much for having me, Tony. We’re gonna make the world a gentler place with this conversation and adding one more to the gentle. Yeah, like, will it ever be gentle? Maybe not, but at least I don’t know, I always say it’s not, it’s not your fault that you found the world as it is, but it’s your fault if it’s still like this when you leave. Oh, very good. We all do have a responsibility. Yeah, I do believe so. Yes, I do believe so. I’m not sure it’s a gentle, but as you said, gentler, yes, yes, make it more gentle. What that means to you, right? But basically, I don’t know, you can sum it up and just be more kind. Be more kind is very good. Yeah, that’s a great, that’s an ideal admonition. We need more of that. Yes, we need more of that on a lot of different levels. Well we’re gonna be working on the personal level, right? So, here in the US, the administration is causing turmoil, chaos. Hellscape, uh, not only here in the US, but, uh, we’ve become very good exporters of all of this. It feels like we are. Hit with a hurricane followed by a tsunami followed on the 3rd day by a wildfire, followed on the 4th day by mudslides. It was a rocky start into 2025. It still is. It still is. So what, what do you, overall, we have, we have a full hour together. We have plenty of time, but just, you know, generally, like how do you make sense of this for, for us? So first and foremost, uh, uh, maybe a disclaimer how a Swiss makes sense of American politics might be different than an American makes sense of American politics. I could use some, we could use some foreign perspective. I, I’m no expert in American policies by far, but what we see here is, is a pattern that we see, um, not just in the United States but also in large parts of Europe, right? This um. This kind of moving towards totalianism and fascism, and whoever shouts the loudest, the first is kind of like wins the race. And um it not and doesn’t matter so much if that what is said is. Kind or smart or reasonable, but you’re just the first to shout at the loudest, so. Yeah. How do we make sense of that? Like. On one hand, it doesn’t, when you speak to historians and philosophists and sociologists, they’re all kind of like, yeah, this is not really like a surprise. Um, when you, when you have people who feel In despair over a lot of things, right? Like you, there’s not enough money at the end of the week to get you to your next paycheck. You’re struggling to pay rent. You don’t know what’s gonna happen, your healthcare costs are through the roof. You don’t know what’s gonna happen to your children. You don’t know what’s gonna happen to the planet like. All these Ideas feed of despair. That paired with. The systems we’re in, who all at the front is surely capitalism. Um, As well, where we’re like, OK, we just need to exploit every resource there is. Pairing that and and and also looking at the decline of. Education of freely available education of uncensored education. The decline of empathy and compassion. We’re kind of like in a recipe for disaster, really. So, and, and this has trickled down to Our listeners, um. In, in, in forms of questionable funding for, for a lot of US nonprofits that do work abroad. Uh, there are individual nonprofits like, uh, National Public Radio, for instance, and Planned Parenthood or being individually targeted, so we’re seeing it at a sort of a, a subset of the community of the nonprofit community level, you know, those doing foreign aid work, but also at a micro level and individual nonprofits. And so this, this makes our, our listeners. Uh, uh, in the nonprofit community generally, um, uncertain, you know, uneasy. No longer, things are not stable like they were just 2.5 months ago, um. And so we take this on to ourselves, you know, we, we, uh, this trickles down, the shit trickles down to the to the, to the people, to the individuals, and we have, we have nowhere else to pass it on to, you know, right, we are the last, but we’re also the first from the bottom up, right? So you have a lot of, you have a lot of advice on the, on the personal level about burnout and let’s start to explore the. The bright thinking that motivated me to invite you to, to come and, and talk to our listeners. Yeah, well, like, for instance, you know, you, yeah, you say that you know you burn out, uh, uh, feeling a burnout is not a personal failure. Can we start there? it’s a natural response. Can we start there? Yeah, for sure, yeah, I think that’s one of the key things to, to realize, right? It’s, it’s not just you. If we look around, we, everyone I talked to and uh they are emotionally overwhelmed or feeling burned out, um. There was just recently, but this is for Switzerland. I don’t know what the US is just today or yesterday was published like the, the happiness, the happiness report, like which countries feel the happiest and yeah, because we’re, we’re recording on International Happiness. Yes, exactly, that makes sense. The reports came out today. Um, Switzerland is, I think the first time ever it’s not in top 10. Which it might surprise people, but if we’re looking here like, yeah, OK, it makes kind of sense. So it’s really systemic, right? This whole overwhelm, especially when it comes to politics, right, we had, I mean, we had Bannon. Like the ex, um, like exact concept of pro he. He was the one who turned like the, the, the phrase flood the stone with shit, right? To have so much, so much coming out that you’re trying to like keep up and keep up and keep up. Which is kind of like almost impossible. So this whole overwhelm. This chaos and crisis, this is design, and this is also what Naomi Klein amplified in her book Shock Doctrine. Although now it’s She might, she argues it’s even a step further, but basically it’s using chaos and crisis to push through. Um, changes because people are too disoriented and to like know what to focus on and to know what to resist. Right, so this is a this is a feature. You you’re you’re citing, uh, yeah, it’s by design. Naomi Klein, you were citing Steve Bannon. Uh, to, um, to flood the zone with shit, so, so it’s, it’s by design to overwhelm us. So this is, that’s important to recognize, yeah. Because you, you, because you can resist by not being overwhelmed. Yes, that would be ultimately the goal if you cancel, right? You, you, if you process information, if there’s, um, if we go with conman, he says, well, you have basically you have system one and system two, right? System one is all the quick, quick thinking you do and the reacting you do and kind of like the ad hoc crisis mode and system two is deep thinking, reflective thinking, critical thinking, so. We hardly, it’s really hard now to go to be like, oh now I do some critical thinking on this, right? Because there’s so much coming out every now, every like every minute of every day. And also, we, I don’t know, we might have to relearn really critical thinking and also engaging with content that is longer than a 22nd reel on TikTok. So kind of like there are many different things that are coming together, um, but yeah. If you So how to kind of like deal with this overwhelm if we know it’s by design. Right, um, and one. One thing is that I find is really crucial is. To say, OK, you know, if it’s a structural point. Hey, what, maybe I don’t really have to keep up with everything. Right? What if, if I only focus on the 2 or 3 issues that are really close to my heart? And that are really and fully aligned with my values. Right, it doesn’t mean that I don’t care about the other things. But I think every listener now has. Their topics that they are feeling deeply passionate for. And maybe just focusing on those instead of trying to like keep up with everything. We don’t want to keep up with the Kardashians, we also don’t want to keep up with everything else that’s going on. And focusing. That’s the reframe doesn’t mean being ignorant, right? It means remaining capable of acting. Right? If you consciously choose which topics are relevant to you, if you don’t chase after every media wave that’s coming at you. But focus on the essentials that was what’s most valuable to you, to your community, you will regain the clarity, you will be able to. Stay focused and do the work, because I think now is really the time where we’re all called to do the work. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money, but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s Donor Box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers just like you, a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges. Helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs. Helping you, help others. Visit donorbox.org to learn more. Now back to Mental wellness among the chaos. So we’re not lazy or, or dispassionate or uninterested if, if we’re, if we’re just focusing on two issues or three or maybe even just one, you know, whatever our, whatever we think our capacity is, you know, if it’s just one, you know, maybe it’s USAID funding, that’s it, you know, that’s where I’m putting my, so we’re not lazy or, or uninterested if we’re, if we’re paying less attention. To all the other cacophony that that accompanies that that are are chosen. Yeah, I, I truly believe that, right? If like don’t beat yourself up because you can’t keep up. That’s the intent is that you not be able to keep up. Exactly, that’s true, that’s why it’s important to realize, you know, this is, this is you said, it’s a feature, it’s by design. So if you’re trying not to follow the design and disrupt kind of like that system or that pattern. This is where you kind of like gain some sort of agency back. And of course, If you’re a news outlet that might be harder to do just to focus on one issue, but if you’re, I mean we, we have to like a lot of charities are single issues charities for a reason as well, right? It, you’re narrowed down, you’re focused, you know, you’re, I don’t know, maybe it’s reproductive rights or mental health, climate change, whatever it is. And The fault I, I have to pay tribute to the lineage of that, like the fog goes back to Bell Hooks and Audre Lorde of like this whole. The idea of self-care and self-love, right? That is a radical form of resistance. We need to consciously look after our own well-being, physically as, as well as mentally. We need to recover and reflect and recharge because I know you’re listening who are who are, they know like this is not like a sprint. This is a marathon and it’s, and I probably most likely, most definitely will get worse before it gets better. So we need to act sustainably and with foresight and we need everyone to replenish their batteries and recharge. That’s a smart metaphor. Um, it’s really an analogy. That’s a smart analogy to sing single mission nonprofits, right? We don’t, no, no nonprofit takes on every issue that is, uh, that merits money and time and, and needs improvement. No nonprofit does that. Um, I don’t know, but no, no, no, no, we’re focused, so our missions are focused. So, you know, on the, on the individual level, the analogy goes we should remain ourselves singularly focused, or maybe two issues, you know, whatever, again, whatever your bandwidth can take, but I just think that’s that’s it’s it’s, it’s a very apt analogy for our, for our listeners, um. You just mentioned recharging. You know, what are some, uh, aside from, you know, focus and, and recognizing that. Your focus is your resistance. What can we do to, to recharge, take care of ourselves in in other ways here? Um, So One thing that I also really. That I practice myself, um, and again, this might not work for. Your nonprofit organization on an organizational level, it might not, but it’s kind of like a 40 hour wait period until you like. React to something. Right, because all these controversial, often like emotionally charged topics, like he, he, he put tariffs on Canada then less than 48 hours they were gone again, right? If we would just have waited 48 hours before we would get like really worked up about it, it’s already poof gone again, so. Maybe we don’t need to react. On a personal level to everything that’s happening, so maybe we can give ourselves a briefer might not need to be 48 hours, but maybe we can sleep on it. Or do we really have to do like a TikTok right now? Like, it’s really asking yourself, do I contribute to the frenzy or to the solution? And often it’s just more noise. Um, Something else I really is kind of like goes that goes into this is. Don’t try to not let yourself be controlled by the outrage, right? Um. This is really hard to do, but if, if a topic is super emotionalized and you wanna like say your piece. I always ask myself, OK, who benefits from the fact that I’m now getting super upset, super worked up. And is this. Outrage is this addressing a real problem, or is it just adding to the frenzy? Is it just generating attention? And often it’s the latter. So, and then worst case you’re becoming part of the problem, right? Um, Um, and the big one. And this is, I feel really tough for us as as a as a collective as a society. We need to build resilience and that we can also sit with things that are. Uncertain and unpleasant. Right, for example, hm. Many of these political and social issues, right? They are very complex. They have no quick solutions. Everyone who tries to sell you a quick solution either doesn’t have like a fully developed frontal cortex or is leaning towards fascism. And like these so-called wicked problems, right, climate change, for example, where all the variables are constantly changing. It’s, we need to know that it is OK to feel uncertain. About certain topics, right, that facing up to the uncomfortable. Is Instead of looking for hasty explanations or culprits, is also a really great way to We to practice resilience and be like, oh no, OK, it’s OK, I have to sit with this instead of Oh, get me like a quick fix solution or a distraction. And this is really hard because I feel a lot of us struggle with this at times, right? How often are we like, oh no, this makes me feel uncomfortable. Quick, let me distract myself with something. Whatever this may be, it’s totally individual for everyone, right? And then we’re wondering why we as a collective have A hard time with Uncertainty with sitting with uncertainty or Having these Having people come to power who offer quick solutions. And easy solutions that are often in the binary and never really working out. What about, um, broader, you know, self-care, um, you know, like time away, things that distract you that you enjoy. They’re not, they’re not really distraction, but they distract you from, you know, uh, whether it’s family or needlepoint or, you know, these other, other things that we can do to get ourselves out of the, the, the, uh, the, the news maelstrom. Oh, of course, I’m, I mean, all activities that you do that you feel are truly recharging you. And God, please do them and please do more of them. But at the same time. I talked to other people when I asked them, oh, what’s your hobby? They look at me like. But like I, they have like this theoretical concept of a hobby, but. They’re like, well, when, when, when should I have the time to like follow like a leisurely pursuit of something. And Also, to really go back to maybe some of us really need to learn again how to rest and to know the difference between Well, I know I’m sleeping and like really resting. So, yeah, whatever you, you know, the activities that you that you hold close that you know are fully recharging you, go do that. And for some, it might really be thinking of, OK. Maybe I start doing only one thing at a time. For example, I. I just uh mentioned this recently um on another podcast and led to a beautiful conversation there. It was very fitting, but For example, when you make your morning coffee. Right? What if you just watch your coffee brew? Instead of, I don’t know, cleaning out the dishwasher, cleaning up the kitchen, doing this and that. Right, these little moments where you, where you really kind of like decompress, breathe. And just be Those can also be small moments of rest. Instead of doing everything at the same time. Watching coffee brewing. Now, I am not personally a coffee drinker. I don’t drink coffee. I know I’m, I’m not making excuses. I was gonna say what I was thinking was. That sounds like uh I don’t know, doesn’t take 6 or 7 or 8 minutes or something for a pot of coffee to brew. So that’s 6 or 7 or 8 minutes that you’re just, you’re doing something that’s probably gonna bring down your heart rate and your blood pressure, right, as long as you breathe in and out, you’re consciously breathing, you’re really like getting in touch with your body. Yeah, sure, 100%. Just don’t spend that time thinking what’s going on in the world? What, what, what headline am I missing? I need my phone. Where, where is it? You know, that’s not the way to spend your 6 to 8 minutes of coffee brewing time. OK, taking, you know, taking a pause, right? just. To the extent we can, um. I saw something where there were families experimenting with locking their phones up during meal times. And, and I, one of the videos, I think the, the woman actually smashed the, the glass jar that the phones were still sealed in. That may have been a, that may have been a comedy thing, but the concept is real that, you know, we can, we can step away. It’s, it’s OK to step away from, from the, uh, you know, from the chaos. Yeah, and it does not make you lazy or ignorant or whatever. I mean, if those stories play in your head, then it would be really interesting to ask yourself, well, why are they playing? Why does me watching my coffee brew make, like, why does that play the story in my head of, oh, you’re lazy. Look at that. Or you’re ignorant or whatever the story is, whatever kind of story that comes up, that would be the interesting question. They’ll be like, why is this story playing? Or even selfish, it’s not selfish to take care of yourself, you know, uh, uh, self-care is not selfish. So I mean I think when you go ahead. I’m sorry, you, you. Just to make the right, like, it’s, it’s always the first thing when you’re on a plane, you put on the life jacket on yourself first. Mm. Take care of yourself before you can take care of others. I, I espouse that widely. Uh, I, I talked to. Listeners and uh folks in nonprofits about that, you know, we all do giving work, but to give and to care for others at whatever level we’re doing it, whether you’re the CEO or you’re doing the house visits, uh, you know, as a nurse’s aide, we’re all caring for others or some other, some other entity like the climate or the oceans beyond ourselves, we’re all giving, but if you’re gonna give and take care of others. You need to take care of yourself first. Yes, that’s not selfish. No, no, absolutely not. It’s really you. You protecting yourself. To To have all these compassion to give towards your cause or your people, your community. And to be able to, to, to give longer, right? To sustain, to really kind of, as I said, we know this is, this, this will not just be over. In a year or 4 years, who knows, right? Um, and it was like, yeah, I said, it probably will get worse before it gets better. So this is really this idea of that this is selfish is really something we have to let go of. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you, Kate. Tales from the gym semper fi. There were these two former Marines who met at the gym and I was over in the corner doing my floor work. And I heard the whole conversation. Uh, it was really, it was, it was kind of touching, the way these two guys bonded instantly over their Marine Corps service. Uh, and they started getting into, you know, the, the, the, the acronyms, of course, uh, MASOC, JSOC, SOI 0311. What were you? 0311? Oh, I was 0311. So I, so I’m thinking, uh, I’m trying to remember these things while I’m doing my, uh, my, my, uh, planks and and my push-ups, and I’m thinking, all right, I gotta remember more so, JSOC, uh, you know. So I went back and looked these things up and uh. JSOC is the Joint Special Operations Command. And Marsak is the Marine Forces Special Operations Command. So these guys worked in some kind of special operations. Um, and SOI is School of Infantry. Which made sense uh with uh 0311 cause 0311, I figured was the, this is something that I remember from the Air Force, the, it’s called uh I figured it was their MOS. It’s a military occupational specialty. I, I forgot what MOS stood for, but we used to just say MOS. It means what, what kind of job you had. It’s a code for what kind of job. So, so they were talking about SOI School of Infantry, and they were 03 11, and that is an infantry. MOS infantry specialist, 0311. So these guys were in infantry, uh, not together, but they, they certainly shared that bond. So it was, it was quite interesting listening to Marstock and JSOC, etc. Um, one of them is named Roy, you know, I like to refer to these folks as like, you know, we met Val, Mrs. Blood and Soil, um, so, you know, I like to have names. One of them was named Roy. The other one, he didn’t get too much airtime in the conversation. So I, I’m sure he said his name, but I didn’t catch it and he, uh, yeah, I missed his name. So I only know Roy as, uh, one of the two. Former Marines. So I, I thank the unnamed Marine and uh and Roy for their service. In JSOC and more so and. SOI And that is Tony’s take too. Kate, Tony We’ve never really talked about it. I don’t think, I mean just you being my uncle, I knew you were in the Air Force, but what is like the one Great takeaway that you took, like one great takeaway that you took from your time in the Air Force, maybe like uh. I don’t know, like a saying or something you just remember like, I don’t know. No, I would say it’s the, it was the teamwork because I had an unusual job. So talking about these guys, Roy and the unnamed Marine, you know, infantry, that’s a very common thing, you know, right, hundreds of thousands of people or at least 10s of thousands are in in infantry. That’s the fighters, those are the fighters. Um, but I was in a specialty, even in the Air Force, something that was unusual. It was Minuteman. Missile operations. Minuteman was a nuclear weapon system. And there weren’t that many people who did that kind of job. I mean, there were, there were probably 1000 or something across 6 spaces or, you know, so it’s a small number. Um, and so, you know, you got to be a very close team cause you did something special, unusual, and, but you did it all together. And on my base, there was probably only Maybe 200 or so people who did out of out of many thousands. So, it’s kind of a camaraderie, I’d say, camaraderie, teamwork around an an unusual kind of job operating Minuteman missiles. That’s really cool. You know, it uh it served its purpose in the Cold War. It was a, yeah, yeah, thank you. We’ve got just about a butt load more time. Here’s the rest of Mental Wellness Among the chaos with Jennifer Walter. Where else would you like to go, Jennifer? What, um, what else would you like folks to know about coping, I don’t know, self-care, whatever, you know, you’re the, you’re the, uh, the, you’re the Swiss expert sociologist. Well, it’s really going back to Being curious. I think true self care also has at this level is component of being curious, right? When you realize, oh. There is this thought creeping in, oh, you’re selfish for doing this, or you’re arrogant or ignorant or. To really be curious and ask yourself, oh, why is this thought coming up? The same with emotions, right? If you, if you do something and it makes you feel anxious, or if it makes you feel angry or resentful to really be like, oh, OK, can I like channel my inner scientist and ask like, oh, why? Why is this coming up now? Why could that be? Interesting. So this is really kind of like where a lot of. Change on a personal level happens if you’re curious enough to, to ask the question, just being like, oh, interesting. Some introspection. Yeah, and a lot of if. Sometimes if people are at the beginning of their journey, they’re like, oh, but how can I like self-reflection feels really hard, like, do I have to. Meditate for an hour a day to have gained like introspection and so. Well, no, sometimes it’s just really Slowing down enough to recognize what thoughts or feelings are coming in. And be curious about them and ask, oh why, why this particular feeling emotion fought right this second. Interesting. What other advice Do you have that we that I haven’t, uh, I haven’t, I haven’t teased out of you yet. Well, let me ask you this. Well, how did you get into this work? How, how did you get into sociological studies and, and, and coaching of others, helping people cope on an individual level? How, how did you get into this work? Oh, Well, I think the sociologist was in me when I was already like very, very young. I was a small kid I was always like, why, why, but why? And I always had this deep sense of justice of like, oh, but this is not fair. Why can they when I cannot or why can cont day and I can, um. So that was kind of that felt very like a logical conclusion to be like, oh, OK, I’m gonna study sociology because that’s basically the question of. Who profits from what we said right at the very beginning, who profits from you being emotionally worked up about this? Right? And so who, like the power dynamics and everything. So that’s, that’s really one of the key questions of sociology, like, OK, who, who profits? And this is, this goes into every aspect of our life, right? If People who uh who identify as women. Growing up, we had all these images of how it also goes for men, how women are supposed to be, how men are supposed to be. And if you feel bad, if you’re made to feel bad about the way you look, Who profits off that? It’s not you. You’re feeling like crap. So. Looking at the systems in place that are trying to tell you there’s something wrong with you. And we need to fix it, and look at that, we also just have the solution to fix XYZ. And that kind of like naturally translated in. Also in in coaching people, right? Because we often are led to believe that we need something outside of ourselves to. To deserve to feel what we want to feel, to get where we want to go, um. And I don’t know, 9 out of 10, 9 out of 10. There’s nothing internal, external, it’s something internal. It’s the internal job you have to do, um. And it’s no I don’t know, yes, you can get. I don’t know, you can get a crystal to help you relax. But ultimately it’s a, it’s a tool or a crotch. And Just the crystal itself will, I don’t know, very unlikely make you feel relaxed. Yeah, confident. Whatever it is, it’s it’s, it’s false, it’s a mistake to look. Outside yourself for. Validation or we mentioned happiness because it’s happiness, World Happiness Day, to, to, to, to need externalities to approve of you. Versus Approving of yourself or or maybe approval is not the right word, but acceptance you need that you need it from outside versus you should be able to find it within you. Well, if you need it. Like externally from an external source. You most likely at some point you will run into this corner of it is never enough. Right, if you need external validation, I don’t know, maybe in the form of, I don’t know, likes to your social media posts, followers, money. Number of friends whatever. I don’t know. Will you ever truly know when when is enough? When is enough external validation? From what I’ve seen so far and read and seen so far, like it, there’s hardly ever enough. Right, if you’re accumulating and accumulating. You will always, this will always wear off, and then you’re right, right back where you started. Then you kind of like need to earn even more money or to have even more followers, and then you feel like, oh, validated again, and then it starts fading again, because you have no internal knowledge of this to back it up. You have no, you haven’t kind of like built this internal muscle to back it up. So you kind of like fade, so it fades out, fizzles out. want to leave us with um some. Final Words of uh of hope. And, and, or even just reminders of how to cope, if, if not, if not overall hope, but Oh, I’m that’s, no, I mean, I am, I am truly hopeful. I’m always like the glass is half full. That’s also why my description is like I’m always, I’m always going to be half marshmallow. I’m, I will believe in the good in people until like the very fucking end. Um But I had this, yeah, it’s really like. Being mindful with our attention. Right? Where does our attention go? and so often we’re not really conscious in choosing where our attention goes. But where our attention goes, our focus goes. And if we can use our attention in a very targeted manner, very focused, we can really strengthen certain topics, highlight certain topics that would otherwise be lost in the flood of information or in the flood of shit when we go back to ban it, right? So really. Yeah, be be reflecting critical enough, OK, that not every breaking news story has to be commented immediately and really not just be outraged for the sake of being outraged. Because like this whole where your attention goes, your focus grows. It’s kind of what we consume, right? What we consume, how we talk about it, the words we use, they build the world we live in. So And what we think. We pass on. And that shapes others. So when you understand that consciously directing your attention is is a very valuable resource. It can have really kind of like put back agency. Into yourself and the work you do, and I think this is really crucial because if you feel hopeless. Reminding yourself of agency and the things you can actually do control, such as your attention. And even if it is no smartphones after 8 o’clock. Then go do that. I want to thank you for uh for saying shit and fuck. But, but we get both from one guest. Usually I, I need scores of guests to get just one of those. Maybe this is the divide. I don’t know. No, it’s, it’s. But you didn’t get any potty humor. True, true, but this is like. I don’t know. Those are things that never really work on command, but they have to be. Yeah, no, I’m not gonna say I’m not gonna say a toilet joke. No, it’s, it’s organic like shit and fuck, you know. But in fairness, my, my son, he’s 5, and he really had, he came home from kindergarten the other day and he really had. The most beautiful, most innocent of potty humor jokes I’ve heard in a long time, and it was truly precious. All right, well, so with that kind of build up, you can’t leave us. So what’s your, what’s his joke? OK, so now bear with me because I have to translate this from Swiss German to English, um, on the go because I’ve never told it in English. Well, so basically, there is a poop walking down the street. Then he meets another poop. He says, hey, you know. What you doing? Oh, I’m just gonna go rob a bank. Oh, that sounds cool. Can I come with? Sure. So two poops walking down the street, they meet another poop. Hey, you look like a good piece of poop. What are you doing? Like, what are you two up to? Well, we’re just gonna go rob a bank. OK. Can I come with? Yeah, you look like a solid piece of poop, you can come with us. So they walk to the next corner, they meet diarrhea. And just like, oh, you two look like fun fellas. What are you doing? And like, oh, we’re just gonna go rob a bank. And then everything’s like, oh, sounds fun. Can I come with? Nah, sorry, this is only for hard guys. OK, 5 year old, humor, but it’s it’s precious. It’s cute, yes, yes. All right, well thank you for translating in from uh from Swiss German. She’s Jennifer Walter. You’ll find her on LinkedIn. You’ll find her practice at jennifer Walter. Me. Jennifer, thank you very much for sharing your thinking, your, your advice, your wisdom. Thank you so much, Tony, for having me. Thank you so much. Next week, nonprofit leadership for current and aspiring. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. DonorBox, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, DonorBox.org. I saw you you out, faked you out with a false. Breath. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is like Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.
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Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Notice. I expertly wished you happy Saint Patrick’s Day last week when it was Saint Patrick’s Day, so prompt, so timely, right there, so no need to apologize this week for wishing you happy Saint Patrick’s Day week, a week late. We’re right on time here on nonprofit Radio. And I’m glad you’re with us. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of cataphagia. If I had to repeat the words, you missed this week’s show. Pretty sad when the, the bar is just set at. Being on time with a happiness wish. That’s, that’s, that’s a sad state. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to introduce this week’s show. Hey Tony, this week it’s join us at 25 NTC. The 2025 nonprofit technology conference is next month in Baltimore. Non-profit radio will be there. You still have time to join in person or virtual. N10 CEO and our technology contributor, Amy Stammple Ward reveals all the learning and fun you can expect. Then Great value in sustainable giving. Dave Raley is the author of the book The Rise of Sustainable Giving. Our subscription economy has spawned a change in donor preferences and great growth in recurring donations. Dave shares his expertise on incentives, creating a thriving sustainer program, naming, converting donors to sustainers, what the future looks like, and more. He’s the founder of Imago Consulting. On Tony’s take 2. Tales from the gym. If they can do it, we all can. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, Donorbox.org. Here is. Join us at 25 NTC. I’m ready to record with Amy Sample Ward. They are the CEO of N10. Uh, they’re also, of course, our nonprofit radio technology contributor, but today it’s the CEO of N10 role that we are here to talk about because we’re talking about 25 NTC, the 2025 nonprofit Technology Conference. It is coming up April 16, 1718 in Baltimore, Maryland. Let’s talk 25. Amy, can’t wait to hugs, hugs. Uh, and, you know, I, I know that most of your time at the NTC you’re recording for nonprofit radio, but what’s nice about it is you’re not in like a recording studio. And so I can always walk by and just listen to who. You’re talking to and um I always see other people standing there listening, um, or taking photos, you know. Yeah, I love, I love the visibility. Yes, we’re, we’re gonna be, we’re in the hub in the commons, which is where all the meals are, all the all the uh keynote sessions, all the general sessions are right there, everything. What else? What else? The receptions, receptions, yes. Uh, so I, I feel like, you know, we’re just, by the time this is airing, we’re just gonna be 3 weeks out. So we probably should focus on the online. Version of uh you know, people register for the in-person conference. Even in person, like they will walk up on day 10, you get walk-ups every year. Oh, all right. Well, all right, so then let’s keep that open. All right, yeah, you you can still register to join us in Baltimore. Of course there is an online only virtual side of the conference that you can also register for and never leave your home or your office or wherever you are. That’s right. There’s, there’s a version for uh each in person and online, and if you need to switch, you can go, this is all on the website, there’s a little spot for switching from virtual to in-person and vice versa. And if you register for in person and end up not coming or you came and you felt like there was too many sessions to choose from, or you could only come for 1.5 days of the, of the 3, you have access to all of the online content, just like somebody who registered for only online. It’s all So if you register for Baltimore, you’re basically registering for both, essentially, because you can access all content. Right, for next, for the following 3 months, I think you can get access to all the, all the, uh, virtual sessions because there are a number of virtual only sessions, but as, as you just said, OK, you get access to both really if you, if you, OK, so all right, so let’s keep up the possibility then. so, you know, where should we show up if we’re, uh, if we’re walking in. Uh, of course, all the info is at.org naturally. But you know, just where, where are we in Baltimore? Where are we going? We’re at the Baltimore Convention Center right by the harbor, and I don’t believe that there’s another event happening in the convention center, um, but at least the area we’re in is very clearly just us. You can walk right through the sky bridge from the Hilton or walk from the Sheraton. They’re connected to the building, um, and Of course, as always, there are lots of other activities that happen that aren’t in the convention center, but all the sessions, all of the main conference stuff will all be in the convention center and We’re trying something that we’ve never done before, um, but because of the physical proximity to the stadium, we, with thanks to the financial support of three of our sponsors, have bought out two sections in the stadium for attendees that want to, to all go over to the Baltimore Orioles game together, uh, Wednesday evening. So, like, knock on wood for Memorable weather, whatever. I don’t want to just say good because it seems like it’d be good, you know, jinx, but um and this is free. This is free. Yeah, you got sponsors covering hundreds of tickets for, yeah, yeah, that’s outstanding. Baltimore Orioles game. OK, that’s that’s the football team. Noball. Oh they play baseball? All right. Well, baseball, no, that’s good. Baball is good. That’s right. That’s right. OK. um. Oh, I thought you were joking, but you were being serious. No, I was joking. OK, OK, good. OK, good. I was like, oh gosh. Yeah, so it’ll it’ll be fun and I think that. Somebody from our group, I mean, it doesn’t need to be me. So maybe, maybe we can convince the sponsors to do it. Even goes down on the field and says, Hey, everybody from the conference is here, and we all get to wave. So cool. I thought you were gonna say you’re gonna sing the anthem. Oh my gosh, no, they would pay me not to do it. All right. Um, so let’s remind folks that NTC. The nonprofit technology conference is not only for technologists. We, we say this year after year, but we have new listeners each year and maybe somebody didn’t listen to last year’s NTC TS TS show. Let let’s make this very, very clear. It’s not only for technologists. Well, it’s, it’s such a complicated thing because on one hand, I would say it’s 2025. We are all using technology to do our job. And so in some ways, we’re all technologists, but This is not a conference that was founded 25 years ago or still today operated with the assumption that everyone that is making decisions about technology or using technology or wants to know, like the latest developments of technology, see themselves as The IT director or or has technology in their job title, right? And so the topics, I mean, there’s, I think 162 with the latest count or whatever in the spreadsheet, you know, of of sessions, but there’s so many opportunities in sessions and out to talk about all the other implications beyond any technology system, you know, it’s not necessarily. Just about which CRM which database are you using? It’s why, why do you even have that data in your database? Where did it come from? Do you know when you could get rid of it? Do you have a retention policy? You know, it’s all these other pieces that impact, yes, our technology systems but also impact our work and how we can do that work and technology is just in in the mix of it all. There are multiple tracks that that are not that involve technology naturally that overlap but fundraising, there’s a fundraising track, there’s a diversity, equity accessibility track, um, there’s a leadership track, you know, there’s, so there’s lots of different subjects across these 160 some uh sessions, and some of them will be. Uh, I’ll be talking to the speakers from some of them, a subset of them, for future episodes of nonprofit radio. Of course, that’s what I’ll, will be on the hub, uh, will be in the hub at the Commons recording. Um. I love the, you know, if you do go, if you go in person, I had to, you know, I’m looking at the lunch, it’s incredible. We had to, I think we talk about the food every year, but I got, I got, I’m reading now. I’m reading from the lunch description for each of the three days, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. All meals at the NTC. Include a range of options for gluten free, vegan, vegetarian, low carb, low salt and low sugar dietary needs. Menus avoid or label the inclusion of peanuts, tree nuts, shellfish, eggs, cow’s milk, soybeans, sesame and wheat. Halal, kosher and celiac meals are available on request, and if you need a space away from the cacophony, look for signs for the quiet tables. It’s such a thoughtful damn conference. I mean, this is just around the food, but that’s a microcosm of the thoughtfulness around NTC. Well this is a quite a core value of, of NTC and N10. Tell us how you, you think about what people need. At a conference and and how you execute on that. Well, maybe I could start with the food that feels um especially relevant, what you don’t know, or externally doesn’t know. Um, we have, um, I will say an animal rights activist organization, uh, that you can anticipate who they are in the community, glad they’re in the community, glad they come to the conference, learn from sessions, you know, presented sessions, etc. Who Has, um, for a number of years, tried a few different campaign strategies to have the conference be entirely vegan. I am vegan. I have been since I was still a teenager, you know, I I don’t disagree necessarily, but as an insight, and I’m glad that there are conferences that are able to be all vegan, but our community has Members in it who have allergies that make uh all vegan, you know, diet at a conference where it’s just all set out on the table, not something they could eat at. Um, and we have folks with disabilities who, even if they don’t have an allergy, they have food related needs that allow them to be comfortable and manage their day without having to go back to their hotel room, right, to eat, um. There are a lot of different things that come across someone’s decision making mind when they’re standing at the beginning of that like buffet table, right? And some of them are dietary, medical, health related, some of them are emotional, some of them are social, right? Like, what if you don’t recognize any food on that table? None of this food is from a, a shared culture that you have. We have people from 16 different countries coming to the conference, right? You might not be allergic to any of them, but if you don’t know what any of them are, and you’re trying to have professional conversations and you’re really trying to get along with this person that you just met in a session, right? And maybe you wanna work for them, and now you’re faced with a bunch of food that you don’t know what it is. That’s very difficult, right? And so we think about Accessibility in a lot of different ways at the conference, and what are the pieces that we can put in place that make it so people are comfortable, they have some things that they can recognize and anticipate throughout the day. It’s why we have coffee and tea at all different hours because Again, culturally or from the time zone that you’re in, right? You, this might be when you want coffee. Uh, so we really wanna think about how do folks move through this space without having To use up all of their decision making or all of their thinking for the day on where do I need to go? Is there gonna be food there? Can I get more water? What do I need to do? Like, we want all of that to be in place so that people are using up their brains saying, wow, what should I think about AI? Oh, wow, what should I learn about this new data standard? What, right? We want that to be where people can spend their thinking and not on Am I gonna be able to eat here, you know? It’s all very thoughtfully done. You, you, you, you call it accessibility and ease, uh, and I, I just caption it as thoughtful, thoughtful. A lot of thought goes into, uh, hosting over 2000 people, right? How many, how many do you think we’ll have. Well, I mean, unfortunately, we have in person, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it’s so similar to 2020 in which, um, that was the year that it was meant to be in Baltimore previously. Um and with the start, uh, it was scheduled for March 23rd through 25th, 2020. So that was right when We were the first event that was canceled with the governor’s, you know, declaration that events are. I remember, I remember tearful. Yeah, because we made the choice to cancel before the governor, before any governor had stopped events, and so we had to make the choice to cancel, knowing that it would mean we’d close the organization because we’d have to pay all the fines. And thankfully, our lawyer found that the cancellation to the convention center, uh, has to be in writing, and we, we never bothered to tell them we weren’t coming because that felt self-evident, and we had spent a week telling the community and the governor said, hey, there’s no events, and we’re like, what we’re, we don’t have to pay. I mean we still have to pay some, but We didn’t have to close as an organization, right, and pay every dollar we had, um, but now with all of these just erratic and harmful changes that the administration is unleashing basically every day. We’re having, you know, we’re hearing from folks asking for a scholarship. They just lost 75% of their funding because of what’s happened, you know, they still want to come to the conference. They, they know that that’s where they can connect with people and get resources and, and learn. But they are firing staff, they, they have no funds. So we’re giving scholarships out to, you know, anybody who’s writing to us um in those situations, and we have continued the regular rate for anyone within about 100 miles of Baltimore that is maybe, you know, a a a local in that way to try and keep um it accessible. To folks who are really having those impacts. Um, so we’ve seen a lot of, not a lot, but a number of folks in February need to move to virtual because they Their organization no longer has funding, you know, um, which is Difficult and just outrageous that we’re in this place where organizations, you know, are somehow the target of I don’t know. I, I, I don’t even know how to frame what the situation is. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah, so that is gonna impact how many folks are there. I mean, I’m sure they’ll still be, um, you know, 2000. Regis registrants, it’s just by the time we get to April, what will be the mix of a couple 100 online, you know, people in person, who, who, who can still physically come, you know? Um, and unfortunately, we’re having folks from a few of the non-US countries say, hey, I’ve been advised not to come to the US. So I’m not going to travel there anymore, and I’ll just be a virtual attendee. Which is also infuriating because this is a global community and I Don’t like that we would have, I mean, we’re just talking about accessibility, right? And, and that all the elements that we try to control so that we can create a, a place where folks really can be together and share their ideas and build power and, and make relationships that are beyond any of these, you know, oh, you work in a different organization. Who cares? We can still share our ideas. We can still figure this out together, right? And To have folks Feel unsafe is is. Not what we want, you know, and obviously not in our control, not in our, not our doing, but it still on a bigger scale to have folks feel unsafe entering the United States. Right. It infuriating. All right, let’s not end on an infuriating note, although, uh the the realism is uh realism and not ignoring. I feel like, I feel like too many. Too many of our community’s content creators are ignoring the reality that it’s besieging us every single day. Yeah, it is every day. I, I, so, you know, reality is essential. I, we’re living it. So, well, that’s a great pivot. We could end on something uh positive, which is the three keynotes that are coming because Alyssa Richardson. Her work is just on what you’re talking about. How do communities use the technology they have access to social media, etc. to shine a light on what is really happening in their community, to have some access to power through truth and information. Um, she has written books, she’s a professor, she has a, you know, whole lab, um, at UCLA or USC, um, and it’s just really An incredible person, so she’s One of the keynotes, just as you were just saying, why are we not talking about this, um, and Doctor Ashley Xu, who is the author of Against Techno Abelism and you know, kind of trying to counter this idea that technology is here to cure us and make us perfect because we don’t need to, you know, what what if we get rid of disabilities, which is such a Elitist ablest idea like this disabilities are in so many people in so many different ways, and that’s not that something’s wrong with them, you know, um, technology isn’t some cure or solution or path to perfection, right? That’s no, no, no, that’s so antithetical to, to what, at least in the community we’re talking about with technology. So I’m excited for her talk, um. But we also have Michael Running Wolf, who’s worked on indigenous language projects through AI. So yes, it’s probably unavoidable to talk about AI, but can we talk about it rooted in absolutely using it in ways that help us as the users, as communities who didn’t get to necessarily have access. To build open AI or anything else, right? So what, what do we, what, what can we learn um from Michael’s projects really rooting those technologies in um communities most impacted. All right, 3 outstanding. Keynote speakers, you’ll enjoy one each morning. Right after the breakfast. Yeah, or you can even, you know, if you’re a slow eater like me, save your breakfast and eat it while they’re talking, yeah, and savor your breakfast because it’s all in the same place. It’s all ins and of course the virtual attendees are are part of that part of the the keynotes as well, and they’ll be having breakfast, you know, on their own, just your camera will be off while you’re eating your Cheerios. Yeah, exactly. All right. Uh, so April 16 to 18, uh, Baltimore Convention Center, all the info is at n10.org. It’s right up the top of the website. You can’t possibly miss it. Join us in person, come see, come see nonprofit Radio at the Commons in the hub. We’ll have our studio set up or join uh 25 NTC virtually, but join. It’s, it’s worth it. It’s, it’s, it’s a smart savvy conference. That’s why this is the. 11th NTC that I’m bringing nonprofit radio to because the speakers are savvy and smart and they benefit all of us and as Amy, as Amy said, we all work with technology in our jobs and so the nonprofit technology conference is for you. Be with us. Thank you, Amy. Yeah, see you there. I’ll see you in a couple of weeks. Sounds great. All right, bye. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money, but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s DonorBox, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers just like you, a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges. Helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs. Helping you, help others. Visit donorbox.org to learn more. Now it’s time for. Great value in sustainable giving. It’s a pleasure to welcome Dave Raley to nonprofit Radio. He’s the founder of Imago Consulting, an advisory firm that helps organizations create growth through innovation. He’s the author of the book The Rise of Sustainable Giving How the Subscription Economy Is Transforming Recurring Giving and what nonprofits can do to benefit. That’s what brings him to the show. You’ll find the book at sustainablegiving.org. You’ll find Dave Raley on LinkedIn. Dave, welcome to nonprofit Radio. So good to be here, Tony, and good to actually be, as we were saying offline on the other side of the mic. I’ve appreciated listening to the show and glad to be on it. Thank you very much. Thanks for being a listener. Congratulations on the brand new book. Oh, thank you, thank you, it’s been uh. Quite the journey, 3 years, um, 438 hours of writing enumerate the stats in the book. I, I have a friend who, um, because I I I’ve worked a lot with uh charities through the sort of the marketing agency space, Tony, and so I had a friend comment like, Dave, you don’t need to track your time. You do know that, right? And I thought, I don’t know, I just like tracking things, so I don’t want to track my steps every day, but I will track the number of hours I poured into this. This, uh, this, uh, passion project for sure. So as you were writing over those 4, you were you were keeping a log. I was keeping a log and thinking I don’t know if this thing’s ever going to. To be done candidly, I think the 1st 3 years, probably the 1st 2 years were like, OK, 1 ft in front of the other, and, uh, such a, such a huge effort, um, but I’m really proud of the book, uh, the early reception, and just I’m really hopeful that it makes a significant difference in our sector. It has that potential, absolutely. Um, if I may, I’d like to read from, uh, the foreword to, to sort of frame us a little bit, uh, your, your forward is by Gabe Cooper, CEO of Virtuous who’s been a guest on uh nonprofit radio also. The reality is that nonprofits are fundraising in a world that no longer exists. The total number of donors giving to nonprofits has consistently decreased over the past decade. Donors are more distracted than ever, and they receive a constant stream of ads and personalized messages from their favorite brands. Most donors still desire to make an impact in the world, but it’s become infinitely harder for nonprofits to break through the noise. That’s, uh, that’s as far as I got on the book. That’s page uh XXII. I stopped. I didn’t even to the pages. That was great. I didn’t even get into the Arabic numbers, so I, I stopped at XXII. Um, now, so. Uh, it’s getting hard to get through the noise. We’re, we’re fundraising in old methods. That was a little frame up. Why don’t you please give us, uh, your take on, on Gabe’s wisdom there. Yeah, you know, I, one of the meta sort of topics that I’m really passionate about is what does sustainable innovation look like? Uh, the book is certainly about sustainable giving and recurring giving in light of how, um, shifts have changed, and we’ll talk about that shortly, but You know, to respond to the way Gabe positioned that, number one, we are absolutely in the middle of a generosity crisis, um, and, uh, that is in North America, that the number of Americans that are giving to charity today is less than, uh, last year and is less than the year prior. Now, as those of us in this industry know, often the amount of dollars that are being given to to philanthropy, um, by individuals is increasing, but that’s thanks to largely mega, uh, you know, billionaire donors, which go for it. I would love them taking their, their philanthropic giving as well, but I do think there’s something about how do we teach the next generation generosity and what does that look like? Um, but to Gabe’s point about models, um, one of the things I always, uh, say is that it’s really important not to confuse your organization’s mission with your model. So your mission is about what your organization, your cause is, uh, is trying to change in the world. Your model is how you do that, right? Including how do you fund doing that. And so when I think about sustainable innovation, I think every organization, every institution, Is really somewhere on that organizational life cycle curve, you know, that S curve you see in like business books, you know, where it’s like infancy, early growth, mid-growth, slowing plateauing and decline, right? Every organization goes through that, and that’s just kind of a like the, you know, fourth law of thermodynamics for organizational health is that those models do age out. And so for me, um, the reason innovation is so important is because it helps us create new S curves, new models to effectively accomplish the mission that our organizations are called to, so. Innovation is critical, uh, models do shift over time, and one of the models that I’ve seen shift, uh, tremendously over the last decade is what’s been happening in the space of recurring giving, namely for the charities that have historically been left behind, uh, Tony, 3 quarters of charities, um. have historically not been able to really tap into strong, growing, resilient giving, you know, they’re not the local public television or public radio station or museum or, um, you know, 1 to 1 sponsorship type of organization. They’ve done pretty well over the last 100 years, uh, with Rick Gibbing, but it’s really the, the food bank, the rescue mission, the relief and development agency. The, uh, the think tank that hasn’t been able to really build strong growing resilient, recurring giving until really the subscription economy and the rises of subscription economy has essentially led to changes in how we consume. You know, the average American today, Tony, has, uh, more than 12 subscriptions, maybe to their chagrin, right, I know 96% of us I think have more than one. And yeah, I was 9. 9.8%. I have at least one subscription, adults, um, and what’s the number you just cited a number of subscriptions. Oh my gosh. All right. Um, before we get into the sustainable, let’s let’s define the subscription. I mean, Yeah, no, the Amazon Prime and Netflix are ubiquitous, but let’s just, let’s just make sure we’re all starting at the same place. What, what’s your sense of the subscription economy? Yeah, and you know, you, you hit it on the head. I think everyone kind of intuitively knows what it is today. Um, 10 years ago when I first started talking about this in the industry, Tony, I had to explain that, you know, what do you mean? You know, subscription. I was like, well, have you heard of Netflix? Oh yeah, OK, I get it. But today it’s really the rise of recurring ongoing, um, transactions in every area of our life, in our business lives, you know, we’re on Zoom right now. I don’t know about you, but I have to pay for the Zoom subscription. Um, you know, I listened to Spotify this morning while I was writing my latest wave report, the weekly column that I write on innovation, that’s a subscription. I had to change the batteries, by the way, in my Arlo camera, um, uh, some people use Ring. Uh, these, these doorbell cameras. Yes, right, you have a subscription, yeah, you make a point. You have a subscription to your doorbellion to your door. If you would have told me 10 years ago that you’re going to be subscribed to the doorbell company, I would have said, uh, no thanks, that’s not great. And yet I gladly spend, you know, whatever $15 a month to know when an Amazon package gets dropped off. One that that strikes me is that we used to pay. One time you used to buy a subcri you used to buy the product Windows. Windows you used to buy the, the operating system and every couple of years there was a new operating system and you have to spend $200 or $300 to, uh, now and, and other things similar but you now have a subscription to Windows 365. It’s called 365 and, and that’s the way you now access the Windows operating system. I don’t know, just, I don’t know, 78 years ago it wasn’t that way. Yeah, well, and I don’t know about you, but or your listeners, but I went uh kicking and screaming, you know, you’re like, no, I wanna own my software. I wanna own my music. Until you start to realize, oh yeah, how long did it take me to go from Windows, whatever, 95 to it was XP first and then 95. It’s like you would, you would end up with this like grossly out of date software because you’re too, I don’t know they meet you, but I was too cheap to, you know, get the next set of software to the point where it is so that ongoing value proposition, which by the way, is a key lesson for fundraising. Your proposition, yeah, but you have to, you have to like the reason I I give money to Spotify every month is not because I’m renting music from the music company. It’s because there is an ongoing each month I’m receiving novel value, and that is what’s uh helping me continue to stay in that subscription. And so I think software, I now look at it as a gift, right? I started uh started my company. And Mago just uh just under 3 years ago and I was so grateful that I have to spend several $1000 in, you know, in software costs. I knew I could I could subscribe to Adobe Creative Cloud, to Google Workspace, to Zoom, and get a lot of value and spread out that cost, um, but that their ongoing value is so powerful. Share some of the uh stats that you have about sustainable giving, why this is so important for nonprofits. Yeah, there’s, you know, there’s certainly some of the, um, the commonly used stats about the value of sustainable giving, which just to rattle through a few of those, average retention rates, 78 to 86%, that’s versus a multi-year, you know, single gift owner we call them. That typically they’ll retain about 42%, so, you know, almost double or in some cases literally double the the uh the the retention rate, significantly high, higher long term value, 5 to 7 times the long-term value. They’re 6 times more likely to leave an organization in their estate, um, or legacy plan, uh, if they’re a recurring donor. I was just doing a seminar with a Group that does uh recurring or I’m sorry, does legacy giving, Tony, and they, um they just did a study of all of the organizations and all these state gifts they’ve monitored and the number one most predictable factor, um, after an after a donor had been on the file for 10 years, so. The first one was longevity, but the second was frequency. It was the frequency of giving and so recurring givers were the most likely um indicator that they would be a legacy giver. That’s outstanding. What can you shout the company name? Yeah, Canopy Resources, um, for Ministry. They’ve got two different brands. Oh sorry, no, C A N O. OK, OK, but don’t spell it right, the incredible value. And but there are some less known statistics. Neon, the folks over at Neon looked at over 200. They found the average charity from 2019 to 2024 grew recurring 127%. So this is not, um, you know, I’m a big believer in seeing, you know, what changes on the horizon and what waves, you know, are coming. This is, this is an opportunity that’s not something that’s just coming down the line. I’m not here saying, hey, I wrote a book, Tony, in 2 or 3 years, this is going to be a big deal. It’s like, no, no, no, it’s a big deal right now, and it’s been a big deal the last couple of years. But, and this is critical, my, I feel like part of my role in this sector is to help people to connect the dots that it’s a big deal now, but then what do I do about it? And so really the, the third part of the book is ultimately, well, the 2nd and 3 parts of the book are how to take advantage of the subscription economy and then how to build and grow a thriving recurring giving program. Also recurring donors, uh, you make this point, give 25% more than their, their recurring donation commitment. Just, just flush it out a little bit quickly. Yeah, the, you know, and, and I, I’ve had some, as I’ve been speaking about this at conferences, I have had occasional people come up to me and say, yeah, set it and forget it, right? And I’m like, no, that actually it turns out in the subscription world that doesn’t work either. But really your recurring donors are the most generous single gift donors, meaning the average recurring donor um on a file will give in addition to their annual recurring giving another about 25% in single, what we call single gifts, right? So it’s the year-end gift, it’s the emergency relief gift. And so when I work with organizations to map out their cultivation of recurring donors, I’m we’re always looking at what are you doing to give your recurring donors additional gift opportunities, um, how are you messaging that to them because just as much as some organizations might think, well, you know, we should just uh not send any uh additional asks to our recurring donors. No, the opportunity is really to. To cultivate them because they are, they’re the most bought into your cause. So when there is that disaster or that uh crisis situation or that year end, again, those major times of year, those donors are often the most responsive. So what we’re seeing is that That this uh subscription economy that’s ubiquitous as you described. Has led to a change in donor preferences on the charitable side so sort of the, the corporate side has taken this and accelerated it and, and it’s like we said now ubiquitous. People are expecting this on the and, and looking for it even on the, on the charitable side. So it, so it’s a, it’s a shifting donor preferences, would you talk about that in the book. Yeah, and it’s really about um a lot of these trends, um, start on the what I would call the consumer side, right, which is just it’s it’s it’s setting tones. I remember I I started in the industry in the early days of digital fundraising and um I remember when people were were worried about putting their. Credit card in online and I remember when Facebook came out and clients would say, hey, should we do fundraising on Facebook and I would say, no, it’s a good, it’s a good relational platform, you know, it’s a good way to connect with your alumni or whatever, um, because it wasn’t intel several years of in this case Facebook being around and people becoming used to basically their consumer lives and their social media lives intersecting. That’s when then. You know, in this case, I think it was the Haiti earthquake that was the real uh linchpin moment, um, in the late 2000s when Facebook and the Red Cross raised, I think it was $30 million overnight and it just, that changed the landscape. Of people being willing to give related to their social media presence. Well, if it weren’t for several years prior to that of people getting used to using their credit card online and all these other things, it wouldn’t have paved the way for generosity. And so I’m seeing the same thing, the subscription economy is not new. I don’t have to convince people that it exists when I speak now, but I do have to help them understand how that has really laid the groundwork for people’s philanthropic behavior changing. You call in the book subscription philanthropy. Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know if that’s your phrase. I had I had I’m crediting well, and the funny thing is, you know, and I don’t want people and I talk about subscription giving too. I want to be careful on the reason I didn’t use that in the title of the book, by the way, was I don’t want people to think I’m trying to, we’re trying to make philanthropy and generosity a consumeristic act. Now there is a value proposition and there’s a value exchange, and sometimes, by the way, there’s goods and services that even exchange hands. If I watch your public, you know, television station or I visit. The museum or I get the, you know, the free book resource, there could actually be some form of sort of good or service that exchanged, but what I’m trying to point out with subscription philanthropy is that really, um, there are some lessons we can learn from those subscription worlds and we can apply them to today. I remember when the streamlined purchasing uh um pages, I’m thinking of, you know, Amazon, one click buy, when, when those were emerging, they were influencing. Well, they were influencing what donors expected from an online transaction, and that influenced what nonprofits had to. Had to create that we had to make a, you know, more seamless online not a purchase but an online giving process because people expected that from the, from their commercial side. So this is, you know, it, and I think that’s terrific. I think there are lessons that can be translated, they learned from the commercial side to the charitable side, uh, that’s, that’s all to our benefit on the, on the charitable side. Totally agree, totally agree. So let’s talk about, you know, now we have to, you know, I always remind listeners, you know, you got to get the book because there’s only so much we can talk about in an hour. So you got to get the book at um at sustainablegiving.org. Of course, we all, uh, you can also get it through Barnes and Noble and Amazon, etc. um, but you know, give Dave’s landing page some hits because uh. He’s a metrics guy he’s tracking the metrics on the. You’ll you’ll end up with a copy of the book either way, but you may as well make, uh, make the gateway through, uh, sustainablegiving.org. So. Uh, we’re, we’re jumping a little ahead, but I, I do want to talk about some of the incentives. So now, you know, we’ve talked about sustainable philanthropy, how important sustainable giving is, how that’s created a subscription philanthropy, so that’s what I meant, subscription philanthropy model, um, some of the incentives if you wanna, if we wanna move into this. We, we, we don’t feel like we’re doing it well enough, the, uh, the way the Gabe Cooper quote, you know, suggests that we either not doing it, which is really unwise, um, well, you know what, let’s take a step back. Let’s go to, let’s go to the nonprofit that isn’t doing. Uh, isn’t doing sustain or giving. And we’ve already explained why, why it’s important. We’re not, we’re, we’re past the, the motivation step, but what should we think about, you know, like what should we bring, what do we need to bring to our vice president? What, what topics do I need to, as the vice president bring to the CEO or what issues, you know, what help me make the case, I suppose, for the nonprofit that may not be, uh, unwisely, unfortunately, but, uh, doing this type of giving. Well, the first thing I would say is you have a recurring giving program. Whether you call it something or you’ve actually spent any time on it, whether it’s any good. I have not met a nonprofit that does not have donors who have chosen to give on a recurring basis. The question is whether or not you’re taking advantage of that and whether or not you are creating growth. It actually again reminds me of the early days of digital, where I would, I would go and, uh, to a charity and I would say, hey, I think we can really help grow your, you know, your online giving. And they would say, oh, it’s already growing 20% a year. And I would be, and I would say, but how fast could it be growing because the reality is just with adoption, people are going to choose of their own volition. You know, in this, in the case of digital, to give online, in the case of subscription giving to give on a recurring basis. So first thing I would say is you have recurring giving um going on in your organization and so it’s about understanding what is that today and then what could it be in the future. I am a huge believer in the potential and, and really painting the picture for that. So I always like to ask people, you know, how many, how much, how many donors do you have today? How much are they giving on a recurring basis, because Nobody’s starting from zero, and that’s actually the good news. So that’s the first thing I would do, um, uh, certainly give them a copy of the book, that’s apparently, uh, work, uh, the book’s only been out, Tony, but, uh, just for a month as we record this, but it’s been really powerful when you have that kind of like I could try to convince you of something or I could let this third party podcast episode or you know or actual book, um, uh, you know, do some convincing for me, um, but. I think it’s really just recognizing that you do have a recurring giving program. The question is, are you going to do anything about it? And, um, and once you know kind of where you are today, that’s where you can start to um forecast for lack of a better term, like what would it look like to grow this program, and, you know, what, how might that enable our our mission that our organization is trying to accomplish? You’re, you’re thinking, you know, as I was reading. Made me sort of reimagine the work that I do, uh, it’s sort of a different framework. My, my work is planned giving fundraising consulting. You, you listen to the show, so you probably know that, um. You know, and there are, uh, clients that have donors. I’m thinking about a handful of people, but they, they’re doing their recurring giving, they’re just doing it every year. They’re putting $1500 or $20,000 into, you know, on the planiving side into a charitable gift annuity. So you, you got me thinking, you know, well, all right, so. In, in, in my practice, I’m seeing this. I, I don’t think that is recurring giving. I, you know, but what, what value proposition we’re gonna get, you know, we’ll get formally to the, to the value proposition. We’ve, we’ve teased it like 4 times now. We will get to it. I, I promise our listeners, um. You know, but what am I offering these folks, you know, so some of them, uh, have come to expect maybe a comp to the annual gala at which is like a $500 a person ticket. So there’s $1000 you know, that, you know, I, I hesitate to be, uh, too, too, um, lofty in my own like self-aggrandizement, but I meet with them often, you know, there’s that, um, I’ve introduced them to the CEO. And in one case I’m thinking of uh an attorney who I introduced to the chief legal officer at a client. So they’re, so they’re getting it just got me thinking, thinking differently about my work. Yeah, uh, uh, uh, you just gave me a little different framework to think about, um, which was very kind of, uh, opening to me. So thank you. Oh, you’re welcome. Well we’re seeing it in planned, which, you know, you would think, well, planned giving, like that’s the opposite of recurring recurring giving is transactional. No, well, this is what we’re here to learn that sustainable sus sustainer giving is not transactional, that’s not what you want, but the, the, the stereotype is, well, planned giving is totally relational and, and this recurring giving is totally transactional. All right, so we’re here to break that down for you’re wrong about the sustain the sustainer giving. And there is overlap between the two. it was kind of a broadening thing as I was reading the book. Well, and even there’s a reason that you don’t see in the book, uh, save for maybe one or two spots. Um, I don’t refer to it as monthly giving. I refer to it as recurring giving. I didn’t call it I did I make a mistake? No, no, no, but I’m, I’m actually, it, it reinforces the point that you’re making, which is, is planned is at least certain parts of planned giving actually a form of recurring giving. You know, I go back in the, in the early part of the book, the kind of the ancient history studying humanity and Plato and you know, different people around philanthropy and the earliest form of recurring giving was the ancient Jewish people and the practice of what they called first fruits, you know, it’s like if you’re a If you’re a farmer or you’re a shepherd, then you would take the 1st 10% of your crop or your, you know, your livestock, and then you would bring it to the temple, which was the local central, you know, essentially authority for the Jewish people, and they would, um, They would then as a part of that process, they would then feed the, the poor and the widows and, and care for, care for those in need in their society and so that was a form of recurring giving. Now did it happen every month on the 1st and 15th? No, it happened every season, turns out because when you’re an agricultural economy. Uh, that’s when that happens, but this idea of this pattern of, of giving, and I do think we’re seeing lots of areas of fundraising, including plan giving, including what I would call major gifts, you know, middle or major gifts that are seeing their own influences, um, in recurring giving, you know, I had one client, uh, a couple of months ago, we ran a campaign. For new, you know, recurring donors to the organization, uh, and they had one donor sign up for $5000 a month, and I said on their credit card, and they said, yep, somebody’s getting a lot of miles, right? Um, but that donor, that’s the, that was the comfortable giving level for them versus another donor that might be $50 a month or or $20 a month, right? And so I do think we’re seeing this form of philanthropy intersect other, you know, uh, areas of philanthropy as well, and it’s all kind of, um, I think working together to increase generosity. I agree, yup, absolutely. We are seeing it. OK, thank you. Now, let’s, let’s talk about some of the incentives uh uh uh that uh you can use to induce folks. To, uh, into sustainable recurring giving, tick off, tick off some of your your favorites from the book. Yeah, you know, and I think with incentives, especially when I write about those in light of the subscription economy, people think again the more the consumer side, and there are certainly incentives that are literal, you know, it’s what we would call a backend premium, you know, like. Uh, you know, I donate and I get a copy of the latest book or I get a, you know, a chotchke of some form, um, and those are a form of incentive, um, really incentives are about helping move the donor to that point of decision, um. So some other incentives that I like though, um, so, uh, classic fundraising, but an absolutely powerful incentive is a match or challenge grant for recurring giving. So not just a sort of we have an overall match, but no, we have a donor that has agreed to match every first gift or the first few months of every, every new recurring donor that signs up. It’s a win from a middle and major donor perspective because you can actually uh use that to say, hey, you can help us multiply giving. Um, but then it’s also a very motivational thing for donors. Um, I’m a big fan of, um, uh, multipliers depending on the organization. So like if some organizations do a lot of like gifts in kind or volunteer service where you can say every gift, uh, every dollar you send results in $30 or $10 worth of impact because of the donated goods we have or the, you know, the volunteer force that we operate, so multiplier. Um, I would call deadlines and goals candidly a form of incentive, you know, um, so I’m a big believer in saying, hey, by this date, because of this very specific need and this very specific reason, we’re looking for, you know, 150, uh, you know, monthly partners to help accomplish this, you know, this vision. Um, and there’s other, there’s others, but those are some of my favorites, um. Could you do the bounce back for me? Explain, explain the bounce back is a device, um, and I, you know, my first job was in direct mail, so it’s it’s a direct mail specific term, but, um, is really a device that you send that then the donor’s gonna return. So I, we used to do this um with some of the shelters we would work with, we would do a Thanksgiving place map. And we would allow, um, donors, we would send the placemats to donors and we would say we were going to use these when we serve the Thanksgiving meals, the week of Thanksgiving. Would you consider writing a note of encouragement to somebody who’s down, you know, um, and that’s like a really beautiful bounce back device because it’s like, yes, I would love to do that, um, for, for those listening that are familiar with the concept of child sponsorship, you know, letter writing is actually a form of a bounce back like I’m gonna write a letter to. To, you know, the, the person that I’m sponsoring, um, so it’s just some sort of involvement device, um, that engages the donor. It’s time for Tony’s Take 2. Thank you, Kate. Another tale from the gym. Uh, an uplifting one, not, not a whiny one like Mrs. Blood and Soil last week. Uplifting There’s a man who comes to the gym. I see him 3 times a week, probably. He comes in in a walker, and he needs help. He has a friend who comes with him each time the friend holds the door. They park the walker alongside the wall, and then the friend helps him over to the bike, stationary bike, and this guy does the stationary bike. He’s certainly 80 plus, uh, could, um, could be mid to at least even could be mid 80s, maybe even a little higher. But there he is Several times a week. Coming in his walker, but he makes the trip and he does the stationary bike for, I don’t know, a long time, you know, I’m not cocking the guy, but he doesn’t just do it for 5 minutes. And then there’s a woman who comes in, not as often as the man in the walker. Uh, she works on the treadmill. And she has supplemental oxygen. She has a cannula. In her nose, and she has a small oxygen bottle in a backpack. And she does the treadmill, and not also not for a short time. We’re not talking 5 minutes. So, Of course I don’t know these people because, uh, I, as we know, I keep to myself in the gym, just try to listen to others and do my business and, and depart. But if the man with the walker who needs help getting from the, from the where he leaves his walker over to the bike, and the woman with the supplemental oxygen, if they can be working out. We all can. They inspire me. They make me realize there’s no excuse when I don’t, you know, sometimes some mornings uh don’t really feel like doing it. I think of, uh, I think of these folks. So if they can do it, we all can. And that is Tony’s take too. OK. I think you should go talk to these people. I mean, I’m not a gym person, so I don’t know like the gym etiquette, but I mean if they don’t have like headphones on, I think you should go like introduce yourself, go talk to these people, see what their story is. You do, right? I don’t know. Uh, neither one of them owns uh headsets, I don’t think. They don’t, no, they’re not wearing AirPods or headsets or anything. I don’t know, you know, I like, I like to keep to myself in the gym, you know, because, especially the man, the man on the uh on the um on the bike, he does a lot of talking on the bike. Um, you know, it’s the chatty, it’s the chattiness I’m trying to avoid. I don’t know. Uncle Tony, you’re a little chatty yourself where you wanna be. Uh, when I want to be, yeah, I turn on the charm. I turned the charm on, but, uh, in the gym, I just, I turn it off, I keep to myself, you know, I’m still the New Yorker. I, it wasn’t, I lived in New York 15 years. I didn’t grow up there. I grew up in New Jersey, but close to New York City, you know, and these folks are, it’s, it’s North Carolina, small town. Different sensibilities, uh, and I’m making, uh, unfair rationalizations, uh, and, and, uh, stereotypes and rationalizations, but these things are important, stereotypes and rationalizations. Right. OK. Well for now. For now, you’d leave it. OK, thank you for now. We’ve got uu but loads more time. Here’s the rest of Great Value and Sustainable Giving with Dave Riley. Do you know the movie about Schmidt with Jack Nicholson? Well, I mean I know it, but I don’t know. He has a pen pal that he’s he’s he writes to this as his life is a spiral down after his wife dies, um, he writes to uh I think it’s, I’m pretty sure it’s. Yeah, so you hear him. Like probably 3 or 4 times in the movie, he’s, you hear a voiceover of him writing to uh to explain how his first world problems are uh spiraling. Well, there is, by the way, a principle in that story, and that is the power of human connection. Um, in fact, the first, um, uh, shelter that I ever worked with on a recurring giving program was called Union Rescue Mission in Los Angeles. I write about them in the book. And the first program I ever worked on, Tony was what they call a meal a day program. So it was this idea of if you give, it costs about, um, at that time with goods and service uh donated goods, it was like $1. $20 or something like that, a meal. Um, and so if you do the math, that’s about $35 a month, pay for $35 a month, you can join our quote unquote meal a day program. But Tony, a couple of things. Number one, it was a ton of work, and number two is it didn’t work very well, like it had a pretty low fulfillment rate. Um, these were in the old check writing days, by the way, that’s how long I’ve been in this industry, um. And um you’re gonna have a hard time dating because I’m 63, so you’re you look like 40 something, so you’re a way to go, yeah, 43. I’m right behind you. Um, the, but the, um, the reason I bring that up is because what one of the things we did that when we pivoted the program was we made it. About the actual guests at the at the mission. Now you had to be careful, uh, you know, privacy, all those sorts of things, but we made it about, um, this idea of you are helping to care for the women, children and families that are at the mission, which at that point was more than 50% of their guests. And Tony, when we shifted from being about meals, which are, if you think about it, inanimate objects that like, well, I guess if I don’t give this month a meal doesn’t happen, sort of abstraction to human connection. To the actual, this is, this is a story of a person and we may have changed their name and, and changed their photo for their privacy, but this is a story of a person you’ve actually directly made a connection with when we made that human connection, the fulfillment rates immediately went up by double digits, like literally overnight, we pivoted from meal a day to this representative sponsorship, and it was a huge lift in fulfillment because we made that human to human connection. So I think of Nicholson and his, uh, pen pal apparently. Yeah it was that human to human connection. How did you get to uh the Union rescue mission? The, the, it sounds like I just kind of hearing your voice that that work really moved you. How did you, how did you get into that work? Well, I grew up in Southern California was was really the part of the reason why it so moved me, and I remember, um, volunteering in high school at um at uh one of the missions downtown San Julian and San Pedro Street, right there, Skid Row, the original Skid Row, Los Angeles. And, and you say in the book that’s one of the most dangerous places in the country. Yeah, it’s one of the most difficult place to this day, it’s yeah, it’s it’s a difficult environment, um, and I’ve I slept at the mission downtown and, um, and served and uh so for me, my first realization that I could do um professionally. The kind of work that I, uh, feel like I’ve really am, am wired for the marketing and fundraising and business and, you know, that kind of stuff. Uh, Tony, the first time I realized that was when I, um, got a job at a fundraising agency. Um, this was 20 years ago, uh, called Master Works, and it was the realization that wait a second, I actually actually could have a career, professional, fulfilling career where I actually am able to help. Uh, causes, um, and the first client I ever had, Tony was Union Rescue mission. So it was, it was doubly, it was a double whammy. It was a personal passion of mine, having grown up in Southern California and having experienced that, but then also right at the point where I realized that my life’s work could be about helping with uh issues and situations like that. And so it’s just, it’s always been close to my heart. How old were you when you started the volunteer work? Oh, the first time I probably went down to Skid Row, I would, I would have been a teenager, um, yeah, early high school, you know, 1516, something like that. That’s not for 15 or 16 year old. What do you remember what was it, was it your parents or what moved you where most people are hanging out with their boyfriends and girlfriends. You know, I, um, it was a school related activity. It was a, it was a, uh, one of the missions down there that did like a shoe exchange, you know, donate, uh, lightly used shoes and then we pair them up with people and so I remember it was the one of the high school teachers that, um, basically said, hey, we’re getting on a bus, we’re going down, we’re going downtown. So then you’re like literally, I was, you know, sorting shoes and stuff, but then you’re helping, you know, uh, individuals find shoes that were great for them and their needs and I just, I still remember that today. And candidly, you know, I just wrote about this week the the question of are we teaching generosity to our children, um, Tony, because now fast forward however many years, 25, 30 years, uh, from that point. Um, I’m a dad, you know, I have two daughters, they’re ages 11 and 14, and I’m asking the question, like, am I, are they seeing me and my wife display generosity? Are they have are, are, are they having experiences that they’ll be able to tell 30 years from now that impact the way they choose to live out generosity in their own lives. Um, and so it’s been a more introspective time, uh, but yeah, thanks for asking that question. And how do you think you can motivate an 11 and 14 year old to, to, to be generous? Oh, I love that. Um, so the first thing, and I was just, this was very top of mind, so the first thing is to, um, make it visible. I think so much of generosity these days can be invisible, and I mean, this coming from a guy who literally just wrote a book about recurring giving, which is generally automated and You know, EFT or, you know, ACH preferably or credit card. And so the first thing that I think especially for us today is how do we make that visible, um, and Uh, that’s the first one. The, the second is, um, how do we, uh, the phrase I use is normalized generosity. I think, um, I think there’s, there can be, uh, an issue with kind of virtue signaling for lack of a better term, like, you know, you look at me, I’m so generous. However, I’ve been guilty of like not talking about my passion for generosity and I think that’s candidly just as. Not just as bad. I don’t know what the right phrase is, but I want, I want my kids, I want the people that are in my life to know that generosity is just a part of who I am. And so in our family, we, we want to do things that help people’s help our kids see that generosity is a way of life. It’s not like, oh, at the holidays, you know, it’s like, no, this is something that we do on an ongoing basis and we actually just had a conversation with our kids. Um, this last week, um, because a local charity, uh, actually it’s a national charity called Atlas Free. They do a lot with human trafficking. Um, our local church actually partnered with Atlas Free to do a, um, a, a program called Freedom February, and there was this idea of the phrase they use is do what you love to fight what you hate. And so do something that you’re passionate about, but essentially raise money to help fight human trafficking. And so my girls, um, on their own said, we wanna, you know, we want to do baked, you know, goods for, uh, for, for, uh, fighting human trafficking. And so my oldest made French macarons. We just spent some time in France, so she’s all about that. My youngest made cake pops and cookies and they sold them. And it was so cool. I have a picture on our website of them at the at the the the Sunday market, you know, selling their, their baked goods, and just the joy on their faces. Number one, they got to do what they love. They actually really do enjoy baking, but this idea of like we are making a difference and, um, I think that’s a memory, I hope, and I think they will, will stay with them for the rest of their lives and will maybe subliminally but will shape future decisions that they have around generosity and the joy of giving. No, you’re, you’re clearly thinking through it for your, for your children, um. Let’s go back to the book. Thank you for a little, uh, personal digression. Uh, we, uh, teased a couple of times, as I said, the, the value proposition. Now this is all part of your, uh, 76 or 7? No, he’s 77 steps, 7 steps to a thriving sustainer program, right? Uh, we don’t have time for all 7. You just, you gotta get the book because, uh, you know, we’re gonna, we’re just gonna, we had a couple. Uh, I would really like to talk about the crafting, uh, your, it’s your number 3, crafting. The an ongoing value proposition. So here’s where we’re explicitly defeating the Myth misunderstanding that this is transactional work, not at all, not at all. Uh, give us your, give us your thinking about, uh, you, you, you make it clear it has to be holistic, you know, ongoing quarter in the slot on, on the value proposition. Absolutely, yeah, you know, in in classic fundraising, you know, that we talk about the offer, you know, how, you know, how much will, you know, a dollar do kind of a deal, and this is an expansion of that. Um, and I do borrow a lot and quote in the book, the, the folks at Next after, they’ve done a lot of work on what I would call single gift value propositions, so like what is, what does it look like to create a value proposition for a single gift, but really it’s not a big stretch to say, OK, what does an ongoing value proposition look like? And so, Um, so a couple things. Number 11 of the mistakes I see organizations make is they use their single gift value proposition and they just say, hey, would you give us that monthly? So, Union rescue mission, classic example, the best single gift offer for the the mission was a meal and shelter, was this like, you know, very low on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, it was a survival need. It was very easy, easy math, you know, $1 could basically a little more than $1 could provide a meal. Um, but like I said, the meal a day program, which is equivalent equivalent of saying let’s take our best single gift offer and just ask for that monthly, was the meal a day program. The fulfillment rates were not good. Um, so, so the first thing is I would just say be careful not to just assume that your best fundraising offer that you might use for single gifts is the same as your best fundraising offer for ongoing recurring giving. So some things to look for as you um define your ongoing value proposition. Um, the first thing is just to be super clear on the problem your organization exists to solve. Then, The second step is to really list out what I call your value claims, and again, this is borrowed heavily from the folks at Next after, but what are those things that are um Uh, that, that That are unique to your organization that helps to answer the question of, yes, we are the solution for this particular problem. Um, and then what you want to do is you list out those value claims, then you, uh, prioritize those. And the best way I know to do that is to actually talk to donors. Um, and so I don’t mean that euphemistically, by the way, Tony, I mean actually talk to don’t like call them, set up interviews, talk to donors. I’ve done that a lot with organizations as a third party, um, but until you actually understand what really motivates the donor and fires their imagination. Then, um, you, you’re just going to be guessing, you know, so talk to donors, and then I would say make sure you answer the question, why is this necessary on an ongoing basis? Because again, unlike uh single gifts, this is a donation that will hopefully be made month after month, year after year, and so you want to have a very clear ongoing need and the ability to then affirm the donor on an ongoing basis as they get towards that need. You make the point too that you should try to target um survival, safety, belonging, those again, those basic sort of Maslow needs. I think every organization has the ability to communicate its need in those sort of lower level survival, safety and belonging needs. And I think, and this is especially for organizations that tend to be a little bit more maybe esoteric or a little more um. Philosophical, you know, we help equip people with knowledge, which is true, but I think the question to for me to that type of a charity is, how does what you do contribute to the survival, safety or belonging of the people that you serve? And um, it’s so important to articulate your need in those terms and not in these kind of like higher functioning self fulfillment. You know, kind of needs, it’s just, um, and that’s really a classic fundraising lesson, you know, the, the more we can talk about how what we’re doing contributes to the survival, safety or belonging of the people we serve, the more just candidly emotionally resonant, um, the program will be with donors. Which one of your other seven steps, uh, to a thriving program? What do you, I’m feeling, I’m feeling very altruistic. We’re talking about talking about your daughters and now what which one what do you want to talk about? Well, we’ve had really two. We’ve hit the first one which is to benchmark your program and by the way, we do have a a vet blueprint guide, um, that is free, uh, Tony, so if folks want to get that, they can get that at sustainablegiving.org. Um, but so the first one we had is a benchmark your program, which is just how many, how much, how many donors do you have today? How much are they giving, and, and that’s a great place to start, crafting an ongoing value proposition and then, you know, just to pick one, I would say, um. I would say let’s talk a little bit about growing your program because that’s hard for you to pick, it’s hard for you to pick a favorite. They’re all my children. Yeah, so the 6th step is really to grow your program and I want to just point out one, there’s a number of things we cover in that that chapter, but one of the things we talk about is sometimes organizations make the mistake of focusing on the wrong growth lever. Um, so there’s two ways to get more new donors into your recurring donor program. Number 1, acquisition, straight, the first gift is a recurring gift, and then number 2 is what I would call conversion, and that is they’re an existing donor, single gift owner, and that you’re and they are becoming choosing to give on a, on a recurring basis. And the mistake I see is that organizations will focus on the wrong one of those two. and so they will be, for example, an organization that really their offer and who they are is really um tuned to them being what I would call a conversion focused organization, where really the best, most significant um success they’re going to see is by acquiring donors as single gift owners and then converting them to recurring. Um, but the mistake I see is I come in and they say, well, we’re running, you know, um, I don’t want to knock a channel, we’re running ads, uh, specifically for acquiring new donors, but nobody’s responding, and it’s like, well, actually your offer and your program are much more conducive to getting a donor in the door and then converting them. And then vice versa, sometimes organizations are very conversion focused when they could be acquisition focused. And so in the book, I’d say, what are the, the, the basic um components of an offer that is more conducive to acquisition. So just for example, um if it’s a highly visible need, very clear solution. Um, and it’s got a very clear specific price point and it’s widely understood. So, uh, for example, uh, not a client, but an organization I’ve respected over the years, Operation Smile. Uh, one of the things they do life saving surgeries, operations, certainly cleft palate, uh, surgeries. And it costs about, I think it was $270 to do a surgery. That’s a perfect acquisition offer because it’s super visible. Like you can literally, photos and video can tell the story of Operation Smile without doing anything else. It’s a very clear solution. We do these surgeries, very specific, you know, need, uh, an offer amount, $270 to a surgery, and that’s like a slam dunk for acquisition. Um, but a lot of organizations, and I would say a majority are more their uh their need, the need is takes a little explaining, um, the offer is not as clear and so it’s more about how do we get donors into the, the front door, giving that first gift and then. Move them candidly within 30 to 60 days, typically to then giving a monthly gift or or a recurring gift. And so that’s just one of the the levers and I write about that in the book of how do you know which one you should maybe uh uh put more emphasis in. You make the point in the book about the 30 to 60 day period. That’s the, that’s the period where people are most likely to convert. You want to flush it out a little bit? Yeah, it’s, it’s the, you know, people ask me when is the most likely time for a new, new single gift owner to convert, and we’ve already answered it, but it’s really right away. It’s that 1st 30, 60 days and I don’t know exactly why I have some hypotheses, you know, I think one of the reasons is that is the point in time when it’s the most fresh to that donor. They’ve made an initial decision to give a gift. Um, and by the way, this is a beautiful thing when you do have crisis type fundraising or disaster funding because those have classically been the most difficult donors to. Get to give a second gift. Um, but thanks to the subscription economy, we are all much more wired to be, uh, willing to do that and so. Um, you have the opportunity to basically within that 1st, 60 days to say, uh, basically two things affirm and invite, affirm that gift, you have made a difference. Thank you so much. You are the type of person that cares deeply about this cause, so you’re affirming, affirming, inferring, but you’re also very directly and indirectly inviting them to stand with the organization on an ongoing basis. And when I do a curve of um when people are most likely to uh convert, the highest time is always in that 1st 30 to 60 days, and then it falls candidly off a cliff for a while and then about a year later it might bump up again. So I’m not saying you can’t get people to convert to monthly giving on an ongoing basis, but that first introduction is, is really one of the most critical windows to uh to do that. You have a little advice on uh naming your sustainer program that that struck me because I, I have a sort of contrary opinion about naming, uh, what I don’t like legacy society, you know, plan giving recognition societies like stay away from legacy and heritage, please. There’s like ubiquitous, it could be anywhere, it could be any charity anywhere leg the legacy society, but share your advice about naming the recurring giving program. I think the short version is, um, and I think I opened that chapter with the Shakespeare quote, you know, um, you know, what a rose by a name, smells sweet, right? But I do think having a name meaning something that you can refer to as essentially a proper noun of the program is helpful because then when you’re referring to it in communications or you’re referring to them, the recurring donor, there’s like the shorthand, there’s the name, where a blank. I think it does create belonging. Um, but, and I outlined in the in the uh chapter on designing your program, really there’s two broad ways to do that, and I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer here, but one way is what I would call descriptive naming and so that’s like, um, basically it’s our, uh, friends of the family program where you’re literally describing the program, and then there’s what I would call fanciful naming. Um, and that is where it might be more of a metaphor, you know, like Charity Water has the spring, right? Um, and I give some examples of programs in that chapter, uh, and I wouldn’t prescribe one way or the other, um, fanciful or descriptive, uh, but I would say having a name that you can refer to is actually really helpful and, um, and, and a piece of the puzzle. Beautiful, thank you. And so we still have several minutes together, but I kind of like to close on your, your thoughts about the future. That’s your last chapter in the book, the future of sustain or giving, trends you’re seeing. Uh, in terms of mindset, yeah, you know, it’s one of the things that really caused me a lot of consternation in the first year, uh, since of saying I think I should write a book was. These things are changing, right? So how do you, how do you write a book that is then, um, you know, going to stand some test of time? And I will say, uh, those of you that are fundraisers, you know, there’s there’s some real timeless fundraising principles in the book, and so it’s not just certainly not a fad book, uh, or at least that’s not the goal. But I did feel like it would, I would be very remiss to not um include a section in the book on how recurring giving is continuing to change. And so I break that into a couple of different categories. Um, I talk about, um, where what people might think of in terms of technology and how technology is continuing to shift. Um, you know, there was a, there was a comment you made earlier that I was thinking about, you know, in terms of how people are choosing to give, um, I can’t remember offhand, but the, the, the reality is that um technology is shifting. Um, I think I saw a stat the other day, more than 50%, I don’t remember the exact percentage. Of, of, uh, consumers today prefer to use what is called a digital wallet, right? So that’s the thing where I double click on my phone, um, and I can choose my Apple credit card or my whatever Bank of America credit card. And so, you know, things like, um, that the charity I just mentioned that my daughters um did a fundraiser for Alice Free, I was able to You know, standing at the bake sale, you know, actually go in and make a make a gift and use a digital wallet. That’s a big deal when you’re when you’re not on a computer and I don’t have my credit card handy or whatever. So I do, I do have a chapter on technological advancement. I have a chapter on how AI is actually enabling um some capabilities around. Uh, recurring giving I think is really powerful. Um, I do think the donor experience will continue to evolve. You mentioned the one click checkout. I still don’t think most nonprofits have the equivalent of a one click checkout, so I write about that. Um, and then, um, I write about some, some, uh, innovative ways that organizations are thinking about financing, um, recurring giving. Uh, I’ll give you one simple example because that sounds maybe, uh, pretty high level. Um, some of the most innovative organizations I’ve seen have basically, uh, created a system by which they can reinvest in their recurring giving program from new donors. So they basically talk to their board and they say what we want to do is we bring in 10 thousands or millions of dollars a year. We want to reinvest the first. 10 months of value from any new recurring donor, um, to then grow the program and so what it ends up doing is it basically creates a snowball effect where instead of just Uh, you know, investing whatever the number is, um, every month in a straight line, which creates, by definition, linear growth, like, oh yay, you know, it’s growing. When you double down that investment and double down and double down, you essentially get a compounding curve and so I know of organizations that have grown, um. Double and triple digits because they are, uh, basically reinvesting. They understand the value of a new recurring donor and they’re reinvesting that in. And so that’s not very common today. I don’t see that a lot, but where I do see it, I see really explosive growth and so I wanted to shine a light on some of those trends. And where would you reinvest in in promotion, marketing? Technology, well, it depends on what your growth engine is, um, so for some folks, if they’re more of an acquisition oriented, uh, institution, then acquisition versus do more, yeah, do more, you know, face to face or whatever, um, versus an organization that might be more conversion oriented, it might be like, actually, we need to invest more in our single gift acquisition because we know that’s what fuels the funnel for for recurring. And just generally too, you, you anticipate a sustainer first mindset. Yeah, that’s the, that’s the, I don’t see that um completely across the board, but I couldn’t come away and not see that the some of uh many of I would say the fastest growing charities today have this sustainer first mindset and they either have had that for a long time, you think of organizations like the Compassion, International or World Vision, they’ve had that for a long time. Or, um, Charity Water is a more modern equivalent where they’ve had it for, you know, 89 years and that’s created significant growth, and then now they are, um, sort of diversifying their focus, but is it is this kind of this sustainer first mindset, at least for a significant period of time that seems to have been really correlated with rapid growth. The book is the rise of sustainable giving how the subscription economy is transforming recurring Giv, what nonprofits can do to benefit. Uh, person who wrote it is right here in case you, you probably put those two things together by now. Dave Raley, you’ll find him on LinkedIn, you’ll find the book plus the free resources. At sustainablegiving.org. Dave, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing and, and you have my good wishes for your, your daughter’s philanthropy. Oh, thank you. Well, and I, I hope for, for the rest of us, you know, that’s just it’s a deep passion and I do think that sustainable giving is a part of that. So thank you, thank you for investing the time and reading that book and drawing out those insights and, and, uh, yeah, I’m just, I’m just really uh hopeful for uh for our our sector. Next week, mental wellness amid the political chaos. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor Box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, DonorBox.org. I love that alliteration. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.