Nonprofit Radio for September 27, 2021: “The Activist” Activates Activism

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: “The Activist” Activates Activism

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns for a conversation about CBS’s proposed show “The Activist,” the backlash that ensued, the replacement show, competition, celebrity, and our proposal for an inclusive and appropriate media portrayal of true social change work. Amy is our technology and social media contributor, and the CEO of NTEN.

 

 

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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big

[00:01:44.64] spk_0:
Non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of gastro paralysis if I had the stomach, the idea that you missed this week’s show, the activist activates activism. AmY sample Ward returns for a conversation about CBS proposed show the activist the backlash that ensued the replacement show, competition, celebrity and our proposal for an inclusive and appropriate media portrayal of true social change work. Amy is our technology and social media contributor and the ceo of N 10 On Tony’s take two last chance planned giving in the pandemic era were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is the activist activates activism. What a pleasure to always welcome back AMy sample Ward. You know who she is for pete’s sake. She’s our technology and social media contributor And Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. They are at AMY sample war dot org and at a me Rs 40 AMY. Welcome back.

[00:01:46.44] spk_1:
Thanks for having me.

[00:02:20.04] spk_0:
Absolutely. And I’m honoring your new pronouns. Yeah, So we’re we’re talking about the activist. And um, I want to, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m defending the activists. I mean, I think it’s indefensible. But you know you and I had some back and forth about it a little bit and I’m not as I had some thoughts that I felt like didn’t come out in the, in the whole conversation, but I mean it’s been withdrawn in its original form, so

[00:02:21.41] spk_1:
shifted in four matter whatever document

[00:03:19.24] spk_0:
emphasizing the indispensability of it. But there was still some things that I wanted to I want to talk about. So just that everybody’s aware on the same page. The activist was a television show from cBS Global citizen and live nation and amy feel free by the way to step in if you think I didn’t explain it. Well, it was a competition. It was a competition among six activists in health, education and the environment to activists per mission. And they were competing for basically social media attention. And the winner was going to present to The G-20 summit in Rome in in late October and they were tasked with competing in missions, media stunts, digital campaigns and community events. And so, uh,

[00:03:20.82] spk_1:
sounds like the world as I know it for nonprofits

[00:03:34.34] spk_0:
everyday. So Alright, yeah, not an accurate, not an accurate depiction of activism. Right. But so what were you what were your thoughts? God, I described it. What what what were you your thoughts about the activists?

[00:05:39.44] spk_1:
I have a number of thoughts and I think that, you know, a place that we could start is just what what we just said there about the competition piece. And and then I really want to get into the celebrity or the celebratory izing of what this work is and um, you know, competition, it is a very dangerous mindset that exists in the sector already, you know, and isn’t serving us by thinking we’re in competition with each other. And I think there’s a large movement of practitioners and social change work and organizations trying to really force and invite people to let go of that kind of for profit world adopted mindset that we’re in competition and we’re fighting over the dollars and we’re fighting over the credit and we’re fighting over who gets the attention and instead like, where has that gotten us? Is the world dramatically better? I would say no. So what happens if we’re not in competition? What happens if we believe that together we have all the resources that we have, all of the, um, you know, materials that we need and we really start doing that work in collaboration. What does it look like to really work in deep collaboration in community with each other, not just with the community members that we’re trying to support. So just off the bat, it felt like such a slap in the face of that work of the sector to say, hey, we’re, we don’t have to be in competition. Um, and I think we’ve seen the same backlash that came to the show, came to foundations for years, who were running the exact same types of competitions, you know, hey, whoever gets the most likes and votes in this week, we’ll get our foundation grant like those happen for a number of years, you know, and they stopped because so many folks organized to tell foundations like, oh my gosh, this is obviously so harmful. And it is, is naturally only going to get the same people who win that could have already had the most resources anyway because they have the most resources to mobilize people to help them win. Right? Like it’s not actually creating an opportunity for folks that are unknown to become the recipients of that attention. Right?

[00:06:01.44] spk_0:
Yeah. And I agree on the competitive aspect. I mean I’m railing regularly with guests against the scarcity mindset, which, which is what competition creates. That it’s, you know, aligned with that is the zero sum that if they, if they’re getting something, then I’m not getting it

[00:06:21.64] spk_1:
right. If somebody’s winning the activist, the rest of us lost the activist. Right? Like,

[00:06:28.24] spk_0:
right? Say it again.

[00:06:29.18] spk_1:
I said, if one person wins the activists than all the rest of us lost,

[00:07:22.54] spk_0:
we’ve all right, that’s right. That’s right. Um, so I, I agree that the competitive way that they organized it was it’s antithetical to what we’re all what we’re all trying to achieve. And I know just bring it down to like nonprofit radio ground. It’s antithetical to what lots of guests and I have been talking against for the 11 years. I’ve been doing the show, it’s just, we’re not in competition. We should be in collaboration? And you’re and you’re seeing more grantmakers recognizing that over not that’s not just so recent like over the past but probably 10 years or so that fortunately that that collectivism uh collectivism leads to a grant was pretty short lived. Right? Right? And I think

[00:07:43.84] spk_1:
you’re right remember foundations didn’t just stop doing the hey how many likes do you get you get a grant competitions? They also moved the other way and said hey we will fund, coalitions, will fund collaborative work, will fund intentionally in that way. Yeah. Yeah. But on the other side of things, the celebrity piece I think does a couple of things making it seem like activism is this celebrity level, you know like you’re on the T. V. Show because you’re with whoever like Usher, you know

[00:08:08.04] spk_0:
these celebrity Julianne, I don’t know if it’s Julianne huff for Julian, how are you? And uh Priyanka chopra Jonas so

[00:10:24.14] spk_1:
creating this like celebrity nous around around quote unquote activists around social change work more broadly because I don’t know what people think activism of, you know, I think is really damaging, it makes it feel like it is something reserved for a famous person, right? And that I think we already really struggle in the nonprofit sector with this patriarchal white dominant view that what we’re doing in social change work is actual charity, right? And it’s like some old white dudes, white wife’s pet project, right? And so of course you’re invited to the fancy celebrity balls because like you are also in that class, right? And and the work of social change is not like high class, right? Like we’re relegated down here, which is like we’re trying to get rid of classism. So the idea that we would reinforce that kind of elevated these are the fancy people that get the credit for doing the work and the rest of us aren’t um I think it’s a really hard kind of mirror to hold up in 2021 again to a lot a lot of folks, not just you and I like none of this is new, right? Lots of people have said this, but I don’t know that what the world was needing was a couple people to be elevated as if they were celebrities for for doing important work or that it be presented as something that those single people have done. There is no work to change communities to resource communities, to change our world, that someone single person has done. So, again, the celebrity pieces very exclusive. It’s like of all the people in Hollywood, right? Like these are the people that made the movies and got the awards. So it’s also like of all the people doing this work. These are the famous people and it’s it’s that’s it, they’re separate. It’s very hard and exclusive to be part of that world, I don’t know does any favours.

[00:11:19.94] spk_0:
And I saw that Julianne, h you know, apologized and said that she was not suited to be a judge, not qualified to be a judge. Of course, that all she just only did that after the after the backlash, she didn’t realize upfront that she’s not qualified to judge social change work, which she may not even know that phrase. You know, we’re not I’m not giving her much credit, but she didn’t realize upfront that she wasn’t qualified to judge activists. Yeah, this part is where you know, see I think that you’re you’re not giving enough credit to future social change workers and volunteers. I feel like people are bright enough to recognize that poverty doesn’t get solved by. Usher coming to a club event in Los Angeles, I

[00:11:20.76] spk_1:
don’t know that you can save

[00:11:21.87] spk_0:
1000 people. Well, I mean looking

[00:11:32.24] spk_1:
around the world right now, it does not seem that people are understanding or acknowledging How things will change and what the work is to change them. Like just looking at examples from 20, alone, it doesn’t seem like the world is all on board for

[00:12:43.74] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications attention spans are short and there is an overwhelming volume of media. We all know this. So how do you get heard and remembered you find your core message and you make it concise turn to, we’ll get you there that can help you with that. So that as they get you placed in those major media outlets that you’ve heard me name and in podcasts, in blogs, in conferences, in op ed pages. Your concise core message resonates. They will help you hone your message and get it heard because your story is their mission turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. Now back to the activist activates activism. What examples are you looking at?

[00:12:51.24] spk_1:
I mean, we could look at schools, we could look at rent relief, we could look at college loan forgiveness. We could look at all of these topics where the residents of what’s needed

[00:12:57.96] spk_0:
activists behind each of those. I mean, I was thinking of, I was thinking of the grassroots black lives matter.

[00:13:11.84] spk_1:
Oh totally. I’m not saying there aren’t movements there, but the idea of the country. Sure. But I think there’s still a lot of folks who feel like and

[00:13:12.43] spk_0:
me too, and

[00:13:38.04] spk_1:
we should just be able to have those things, you know, go a certain way and not like Black lives Matter. Didn’t start in 2020 you know, and going for years and years and I think a lot of folks deep in the Black Lives Matter movement would say yes, there have been important winds, there have been important changes and look at where we are at like this is a long path and not everybody is here for long path work, you know.

[00:13:51.24] spk_0:
Oh yeah, I don’t, not everybody is here for a long path work. No,

[00:13:53.69] spk_1:
I mean, how many folks just use that example, how many folks put up a, you know, we whatever kind of empty we we support Black Lives statement last summer and have taken it off their website and have done no material change in their work. Right?

[00:15:29.54] spk_0:
All right. Well, those are among the yeah, those are among the frivolous people or entities, corporations, whatever they did it for publicity. It was it was good for a few months. They gave their corporate promise not to. Uh well, now I’m shifting gears a little bit, but the corporate promises not to give too uh folks in Congress who voted to decertify the election, you know? But those promises only lasted a month or a couple of months or something. And they found back channel ways to do it maybe even during maybe when their pledge was still up. But yeah, now, uh okay. I just All right. I guess you’re looking more at the negative examples I’m looking at. I mean, there was activism beginning with uh when as much as I don’t like to do politics on the show, I went to the I went to the the rally right after trump was elected, the january january 2017 rally in Washington D. C. The women’s. The wasn’t called women’s March. And yeah, um I mean, there’s are a million or a million people sure showed up and and protested what looked like a, well, it looked like at the time, it’s gonna be a white, you know, white dominant narrative party and emerged to be that and much more in terms of.

[00:16:12.04] spk_1:
But I actually think these examples you’re bringing up our disproving your point, because the point you were making, I think was something we talked about when when the when the cameras weren’t rolling, when the when the recording wasn’t going of, you know, a show like, this is gonna really put this kind of work in the spotlight and it’s going to bring more people into the sector, but the the stories that you’re bringing up or showing that, like, well before this show, which hasn’t aired yet, there were plenty of people already showing up. So I don’t know that we have been waiting on a show that celebrities is what activism work is to have people feel like doing social change is something that they can and should be a part of.

[00:16:37.34] spk_0:
Well, all right, that was an early opinion to when I was before, I had done a lot of research before, I thought more about it. Um I just I think, again, I think it’s it short changes folks to think that they believe that celebrity is the the root of activism, celebrity is essential to activism.

[00:18:28.14] spk_1:
I’m not making the point that it’s essential to it, but I’m saying that when you remove people from the work and make them celebrities, it is now detached from the work and so it is, it’s reinforcing a weird dynamic in the sector that the people that will get that visibility are then removed and are up here as celebrities, you know, I think even just to keep on the women’s March example, a lot of the folks that were the core organizers of that very first Women’s March, which has continued and taken on other work as well, you know, have have faced a lot of harshness when put in celebrity spotlight for their role in that both people tearing them apart, finding other things, they’ve been a part of in their past and claiming that because they worked on some other campaign now they’re actually have some secret motive to tear this movement down, that it hasn’t been good when visibility has come to them, but so I just, I think naming what celebrity does to a movement is important as part of what I think folks were asking the organizing non profit to account for, you know, I think part of what folks were calling and giving feedback to global citizen about wasn’t like, hey, this is an awful show format, it was take accountability for what is going to happen if you are removing these people and you’re turning them into celebrities instead of honoring that they are people doing work who are full humans, right, they are not about social media likes and media blitz competitions, like we have to give space for people’s wholeness, otherwise we’re just gonna chew them up and spit them out, like, like we do with a lot of other celebrity culture, right? And that’s not going to be good for the movements they’ve been deeply invested in.

[00:18:40.54] spk_0:
And and the I think the backlash itself demonstrated that there are people who recognize that the work is deeper than a culture of celebrity,

[00:18:52.66] spk_1:
Right?

[00:19:38.14] spk_0:
You know, and so I don’t I don’t think those who are currently in social change work are the only ones who recognize that it’s deeper work than a culture of celebrity. That’s what I’m saying. And even folks who are, you know, the current teenagers, I think as I think they would recognize, I mean they might have been drawn to the show for the wrong reason, but I think as they, as they aged and for those who emerged into social change work and true activism, that they would, well, they’d eventually face the harsh reality if they went in with, if they went in with the wrong impression, that would quickly be uh quickly be defeated as they didn’t get any jobs because they kept telling interviewers that they wanted to rub shoulders with,

[00:19:48.16] spk_1:
they wanted the celebrity position.

[00:20:42.74] spk_0:
Yeah, right. Um but I think they would have been smart enough. I think even young folks are smart enough to have to have come to the to recognize that it’s it’s more than celebrities in a, at an event in a club. All right now, all right, So I want to give global citizen there do because they did uh there was a joint statement from CBS and global citizen and live nation. And then Global citizen also had its own statement which said in part global activism centers on collaboration and cooperation, not competition. We apologize to the activists, hosts and the larger activist community. We got it wrong. It is our responsibility to use this platform in the most effective way to realize change and elevate the incredible activists dedicating their lives to progress all around the world. So they came around and that’s a to me that’s a very that’s a very responsible apology

[00:20:49.54] spk_1:
to Yeah, I mean it doesn’t account for

[00:20:52.44] spk_0:
in fact they got into it. Yeah, it was

[00:20:54.72] spk_1:
like this all of it happened the same

[00:20:57.91] spk_0:
thing I said about Julian H where were you when we were when the producers first approached you.

[00:21:27.24] spk_1:
Yeah. And they say that accountability is, you know, demonstrating that you actually heard the feedback and will change. So I I hear that there was like, we get the people are mad and we will change the format, but but I think it would have been also awesome to hear like, hey, honestly, this is what we have been looking at and what we were valuing when we made that decision and here’s how we’re going to change those values. So this doesn’t happen again because because global citizen is a very prominent, well resourced organization themselves. And

[00:21:43.04] spk_0:
so

[00:21:58.44] spk_1:
as far as as far as apologies go, you know, versus a statement. But had it been more of an actual apology, that’s what I would have wanted to hear. Hey, this is what we were valuing. This is how we made this original decision and this is how we’re going to change those values so that we don’t make this decision again.

[00:23:04.24] spk_0:
I agree, but based on the way they operate. I’m not sure that they are capable of that now. I didn’t know a lot about global citizens, but they give points for activism and you trade in those points for rewards like um like V. I. P. Experiences like tickets and gift cards and subscriptions. So you know, like earned 20 points call congress, I was just on the website earlier. 20 points support Covid 19 relief for LGBT plus people. uh you get 10 points if you end the pandemic for all, which didn’t seem right to me. But if the LGBT community gets 20 points, how come the whole world, everybody everybody plus LGBT only gets half. That makes sense. That part didn’t make sense to me. I thought it I thought if LGBT is 20 then the whole world should be like 200 I thought or 2000 because there’s so many more, you know? But all right. So I

[00:23:05.14] spk_1:
mean their fundamental they give the business model is already based on currency of how you act and there’s

[00:23:15.14] spk_0:
get VIP backstage experiences. So, I

[00:23:50.94] spk_1:
Mean there’s a reason why they were the ones about 1.8 million us non profits while they were the organization in this deal of course, because they are ones that are already set up kind of doing work in that way. But maybe the feedback was more than just the show, you know, like maybe there was something to here in that reaction that was about what they are valuing in the work versus just the the tv format of this, it

[00:24:17.74] spk_0:
was not their business model and I don’t think they want to hear that it’s all right. That’s why I say, I don’t think they’re capable of the kind of apology that you’re talking about because I don’t think they want to question their business model in their core values, they get, you know, they have millions of activists and billions of people affected, you know, like, so, so if I sign a petition to end the pandemic for all, doesn’t that count as seven billion people affected because I’ve signed a petition for the whole world is that that’s you know, and I

[00:25:31.34] spk_1:
think this is the difficulty of um this this time we find ourselves in of being alive and In 2021 of there are so many things at least on my list, I’m sure on your list too that I think would need to dramatically change or go away and be formed a new in order for us to have a world even slightly close to an equitable world and if there’s that many things to change and there’s that many needs, you know, there’s going to have to be a whole lot of ways that we try to get there and lots of different missions, lots of different versions of the same mission, right? Like we have to try everything and anything to try to get there within reason, not like truly trying anything and everything. And so, you know, the model of global citizen, not for me, I’m not going to work there and I’m not going to like take the point based actions, are there people that take them? Yes,

[00:25:33.95] spk_0:
great.

[00:26:39.84] spk_1:
And so like there can there and maybe that will go away at some point in this very long journey that hopefully everybody has signed on to right of getting to a better world. But it’s hard because I feel challenged to hold on to like that’s not for me. And but maybe it’s for someone, right? Like just because I don’t like that flavor ice cream doesn’t mean that flavor of ice cream shouldn’t exist. And so like how do we how do we take a like, harm reduction mentality versus and I like idealistic, there’s some perfect rubric um and not that I think you’re saying that, but for me, I think, OK, well if we’re if we’re if we’re going to say harm reduction because we can’t avoid that right now, then maybe it’s not doing a show that’s profiling people through global citizen, that’s profiling people through local grassroots, you know, like interviews and finding folks who are doing work outside of traditional models or you know, whatever it might be like maybe the, maybe the invitation then for harm reduction in creating some ridiculous tv show is sourcing the folks that are going to be featured in a different way.

[00:28:45.44] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two last chance planned giving him the pandemic era. It’s your life. If you miss it, I don’t know what else to say. It’s hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. Thank you. Thank you very much. JmT. It’s on September 30, 2-3 eastern time and here’s what’s on the agenda. What plan to giving is who your best prospects are, where to start your program. And how does plan giving fit in our pandemic era to make your reservation. You got, it’s free by the way, this is free, but you got to make a reservation JMT consulting dot com go to events and then middling speaker series. Actually, it’s not middling, you know, it’s not lackluster either where I would be the only person listed. It’s the expert speaker series. Yak. Yak Yak, that’s where you go, Expert speaker series, I hope you’ll be with me September 30, let’s talk about planned giving in our pandemic era and yeah, all important your questions. The most important part I think that’s the most important part of any webinar because that puts the focus on what you’re thinking. What you didn’t quite grasp how the topic relates to your work. The questions the all important Q. And A. Of course it’s included. I didn’t mention that in the agenda but and I don’t want to I don’t want to assume that it’s uh it’s there just trust me plenty of time for Q. And A. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the activist activates activism which I am kind of enjoying saying. I’ve always thought about doing a podcast that elevates grassroots work. But yeah but you have to be more of a storyteller. Yeah. I’m not my podcast. This show is not about storytelling. I’m not a storyteller I would need a producer who’s a good storyteller. You

[00:29:01.36] spk_1:
can chat to somebody.

[00:30:02.24] spk_0:
Yeah I can chat. I know but it’s not it’s not gonna it’s not gonna go is it not gonna be that it’s not gonna be that interesting beyond the nonprofit community. I’m talking about a show whether it’s a podcast or T. V. Or Youtube stream whatever Livestream whatever it is that tells the story of a community of nonprofits or a single non profit and how they’re doing their work, how they’ve evolved how their work is evolved. Maybe they have a pivoted at some point because they realized they weren’t not, maybe not only doing well, but we’re doing good, but maybe they’re doing harm. So they had to change and tells that story the arc of a nonprofit grassroots work that, but as I said, that takes a storyteller and the and the global citizen. I mean, that’s a that’s a counter example, the activism around global citizen as a counter example to what I said earlier about having faith in future activists, because they’re a bunch of people who are just doing collectivism and they’re getting V. I. P. Experience is after they trade in their their 2000 points. So I realized that’s a counter example of what I was saying, but they’re not the folks that I’m paying attention to

[00:30:08.37] spk_1:
write well and maybe, you know,

[00:30:10.48] spk_0:
have faith, I have faith in humanity, is what I’m saying.

[00:30:12.88] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m hopeful that

[00:30:15.45] spk_0:
future social change workers,

[00:31:00.84] spk_1:
how they’ve changed the format. Of course, we’re gonna get to I have watched it or whatever, but, you know, changing the format to being a doctor who series, presumably then like, each episode, just about one of them or whatever, really does honor the community of work. You know, whatever movement there in not just that person, and I think in doing that it could contribute to the point you were trying to make earlier then people see that and think they could be part of it because it isn’t about, oh, like, what are the odds that I would be Sarah or you know whoever the person is versus oh I could be in that movement right? And that movement is accessible to me. Well that’s the big piece that I think is important.

[00:31:40.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I like it’s accessible. I I could see myself as part of that well because it removes the competition, removes the celebrity right? Two of the most offensive parts of the whole endeavour. The initial the initial endeavour. Alright, alright. Um something else that we chatted about an email. Uh you know I have to be careful but I don’t want us to be as a community so self righteous that we think we can’t be accurately portrayed in, in in popular

[00:31:42.91] spk_1:
culture.

[00:31:44.84] spk_0:
Um and I, you know I went back, you know I was thinking remember the philanthropist

[00:31:51.84] spk_1:
kind of, it was a name but I don’t, I never thought it

[00:31:56.33] spk_0:
was, it was prevalent. It was, I’m not citing it as a good example of popular culture.

[00:32:01.83] spk_1:
Don’t my netflix queue.

[00:32:15.34] spk_0:
I don’t even, I think they struck it. I don’t even think it’s available but it was a jet setting billionaire. He did good deeds motivated by, he saved a uh huh a black child in Nigeria from a hurricane or something and it was a pivotal moment in his life.

[00:32:21.36] spk_1:
White White savior is that

[00:32:35.74] spk_0:
exactly. Uh I think he had his own jet or something. I don’t know but he had the means to travel around the world and do good deeds for, for less fortunate people of color, uh, throughout the world

[00:32:36.84] spk_1:
how, and how grateful the world was for him

[00:33:17.94] spk_0:
as well. So that, that was frivolous. That was from. Um, but I, so I’m not trying to extreme these things together and just, you know, another example of that, that was a bet that was a bad attempt. I just, so there’s, there’s a philanthropist. Now there’s the activist. I don’t want us to get to a point where we feel that we, like I said that we, there can’t be an accurate portrayal of our, of our work, uh, in, in, in, in media and popular culture because because there’s no, there’s no profession that’s accurately portrayed. Sure. I mean, you know, law and order, law enforcement doesn’t happen in half hour bites from investigation to verdict. It just doesn’t, it doesn’t work that way.

[00:33:28.09] spk_1:
I mean, the office seemed pretty accurate for what I imagine is a small, very small, small corporate office.

[00:33:53.54] spk_0:
Um, it was even better when it was Ricky chavis. Um, yeah, all right. The act right. But they weren’t, they weren’t activists, but they were Dunder Mifflin. Um, so that’s all, I just don’t want us to, like I said, like I already said, I don’t want it to be too self righteous that the work has to be so accurately portrayed that no portrayal will suffice.

[00:34:25.74] spk_1:
Sure, but I guess like what, what’s the show that does that, that like, is accurately portraying the work is not sensationalizing. It is not, you know, making light of it or making it seem frivolous. Like, what is that? Like a lot of, a lot of movement work is emails, google, docs, socializing ideas with different partners,

[00:34:32.58] spk_0:
watch that show or listen to that podcast.

[00:35:03.74] spk_1:
Right. And so I guess that’s my question. Like what’s what’s the show that is an accurate portrayal? That isn’t, that isn’t either sensationalizing it and making it feel like every nonprofit is out there saving babies every day and like, and then they’re not. So then our donors then saying, oh well, like you’re so, let me go find the one that is right. Like what I’m willing, I’m willing to hear your plate, but I want to hear like an example that that convinces me, well, there isn’t one

[00:35:43.24] spk_0:
yet, but it’s the show that will, when I find the right producer, it will tell a genuine and not heartstring, not, not not a heartstring story, but we’ll tell a genuine story of successes and failures and how, how that organization or that community of organizations have improved their, you know, improved the water in their community or, or sheltered animals or sheltered mothers and and Children right? There, there is a, there is a space for a heartfelt genuine story that’s not, not sensationalized,

[00:35:52.09] spk_1:
right?

[00:35:53.74] spk_0:
Nobody’s produced it yet. Right.

[00:37:15.43] spk_1:
Well, and I also think there’s a, I would anticipate even somebody looking to produce that would rely on some of the same structures that many others have relied on which is like it’s a five oh one C three registered organization. They have these types of staff, they have this type of funding, they’re in good relationship with a foundation, like the things that are already a kind of reinforcing more privileged organizations now, even if they’re small versus what’s the space for the group that has chosen never to file with the I. R. S. And it’s not A C. Three and you know, maybe fiscally sponsored or just operating on mutual aid. Like how do we make room in the storytelling of what the work is to say that it isn’t just a five oh one C. Three that has a certain amount of income that files and 9 90 right? Like there are a lot of people and there’s going to have to be a lot of people doing work in a lot of different ways for things to change because also like maybe the I. R. S. Should change like, right? Like there’s a lot of layers to what could and should be happening for us to get out of us a self perpetuating cycle of of maintaining social issues so that we can maintain a sector that’s like Top five of of the sectors in the US right?

[00:37:42.33] spk_0:
Yeah. You’re you’re trending towards the uh you’re trending toward the you’re not self righteous. I know you but yeah if you want there to be a if you want there to be something that people pay attention to it’s got to be I don’t want to say it’s got to be mainstreamed but

[00:37:47.03] spk_1:
You feel like if there was a show let me clarify you are feeling that if there is a show that’s profiling like the honest good work especially at the grassroots level and it included folks who did not have a registered 501 C3 that that would be harmful.

[00:38:31.62] spk_0:
Now I don’t know I just don’t. No actually it could be beneficial. Yeah I was focusing more on the 1.7 or eight million charities that are 501 C threes. Sure. No but there’s of course there’s space for non non registered activist work. Just we have to find those people and tell their stories just as an amplify their stories just as well. Just as well as we amplify the five oh one C threes

[00:39:17.92] spk_1:
right? That’s my point. My point is just remembering that we’re not even their ideal break was being like create a great show. We don’t borrow. They’re like oh well they must they must check these boxes right? And change that mindset in ourselves. Even as we were imagining some wonderful show that all of the producers of T. V. Shows are listening to this radio and now we’ll contact you tony and want to produce it you know? But like even even as we’re imagining things, we’re challenging ourselves to let go of structures that don’t serve us so that we can imagine differently because I think that’s a big that’s needed. I

[00:39:48.82] spk_0:
was being myopic. Yeah, I agree. That could be a very genuine heartfelt story. How come how come you don’t qualify or never pursued your I. R. S designation because then people could give to you and and they were doing a tax deduction. How come you don’t participate in that structure is the reason it’s just you don’t feel like you have access, you don’t feel you have the resources or you just don’t want to be part of that structure. Right? Okay. Yeah, you’re right. I agree those those are genuine heartfelt, important and impactful stories too. So nobody’s done this show, but I’m sure there’s a space for it. I mean, I don’t see this on cbs

[00:39:59.53] spk_1:
but public,

[00:40:01.40] spk_0:
public radio, public television.

[00:41:49.81] spk_1:
Right. Right. And I think just to tie it back to, you know, the activist where we started this conversation, I think, you know, if if a group, whether it was netflix or cbs or NPR came For example here to Portland and said, Hey there’s some really strong mutual aid efforts happening here. We want to profile you on this show, it will be 40 minute beautiful documentary. I imagine it would also cause a lot of challenge for the community to say who gets to have their voice. You know, like the premise of mutual aid is that it’s like all of us coming together to support each other. And so what what does it look like again? Even even if it isn’t positioned as a competition for G 20 access, what does it mean in that moment to celebrities or give credit to certain people within within quote unquote, you know, social work. And I think well I’m not presenting that as a challenge. Like there could never be a documentary please. I would love there to be way more people profiled for doing change work. My point is saying even even in this other scale or premise of the show or storytelling, I think it’s important still to ask the questions of are we creating a dynamic that is harmful? Are we allowing there to be space for lots of voices and not, you know, inadvertently trying to put one person’s face on the episode tile as if they’re the face of that movement, right? Like how are we honoring this is community work and not just um you know, maybe unintentionally from, from lack of you know, paying attention doing the same cycle again and turning things into one person’s story.

[00:41:54.31] spk_0:
Alright, alright. I’d like you to be an advisor on the

[00:41:57.59] spk_1:
show,

[00:41:59.76] spk_0:
but I want you to agree that we don’t want to let make perfect be the enemy of the good.

[00:42:14.50] spk_1:
No, no. And I think that we can achieve that by having really intentional decision making. Instead of running with opportunity right? Like going slower with intention than going faster without it

[00:42:24.60] spk_0:
going slower with intentions. Yeah because we do want it we right we want to honor the voices and the work.

[00:42:28.60] spk_1:
But I and I want some fancy title. So when the credits go pie people are like what is that? You know look at

[00:42:35.39] spk_0:
you you just you just contradicted everything you just said

[00:42:48.60] spk_1:
I want you said that that I’m a producer on the show. So you already I want something that doesn’t say producer. I it’s

[00:42:49.55] spk_0:
like you’re already you’re already elevated yourself already making it about you. You just said we don’t want to make it about one person. I said advisor you elevated yourself the producer.

[00:43:15.90] spk_1:
I don’t know what the difference in those words is. So what a contradiction. I don’t work in tv. What’s the, tell me what the difference between an advisor and producers. I thought producers like just I always thought a producer was like a convenient name because you didn’t you weren’t like actually part of the show.

[00:43:20.10] spk_0:
I think producers are they get the money, you give the money or they make the money or they find the money they find it among their connections and their and their corporate the media people they know uh they like they make it happen

[00:43:35.70] spk_1:
well so I’m gonna need okay so if I’m going to advise you on something that I’m gonna need to go to some like some class about what what you do to make a T. V. Show because I have never been involved in that world.

[00:43:48.70] spk_0:
All right. And I’m not restricted to television either.

[00:43:52.60] spk_1:
Okay. Cool, interpretive dance.

[00:44:17.89] spk_0:
That’s too esoteric. Alright. Somewhere between interpretive dance and television. Okay. There’s plenty of media space. Alright. Alright. Um Yeah, I I believe there’s a space for a show that people will will follow that tells the story correctly. Yeah. All right. All right. Anything you want to leave us with? I’ll give you the last word is

[00:44:45.99] spk_1:
I will You’ve already said that. You agree with me. So, I’ll say I agree with you on that. There is something here. I don’t know that it’s the activist but hopefully we can as we explore. I think a lot of different storytelling podcast. You know like there’s there is a a rich history of people of being storytellers and finding places where we elevate well, the work to change our world as something we prioritize in the stories we tell.

[00:44:57.29] spk_0:
I agree. I agree. Alright. Maybe we’ll watch the documentary uh whenever it comes out and maybe

[00:45:00.66] spk_1:
we’ll have a watch party.

[00:45:04.79] spk_0:
Maybe we’ll review at least the first one. We’ll give it give it an even shot. The first. Yeah. Used to be a doctor series. I didn’t catch that much. Is it supposed to be a series? Okay. Yeah. All right. So

[00:45:13.33] spk_1:
I think it’s still multiple episodes and like you know. All

[00:45:17.11] spk_0:
right, we’ll give it a shot. Give the first one a shot and see what they do.

[00:45:20.89] spk_1:
Okay. I think we should have non profit radio watch party. Have everybody tweet while they’re watching it or something, you know,

[00:45:30.69] spk_0:
we could do that with the hashtag uh Alright, thank you very much. Good to talk to you.

[00:45:32.35] spk_1:
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for the good conversation.

[00:45:44.79] spk_0:
Thank you amy sample word. Our technology and social media contributor And they are ceo of N 10 at a me sample ward dot org and at amy R S Ward. Thanks again.

[00:45:51.09] spk_1:
Thanks tony

[00:46:21.58] spk_0:
next week, Jeanne Takagi returns with risk management one and I am going to miss saying the activist activates activism. The activist activates activism. It’s very clever. It must it must have been written by the intern if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O

[00:46:24.58] spk_2:
our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is

[00:46:27.84] spk_0:
by Susan Chavez.

[00:46:54.98] spk_2:
Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for September 20, 2021: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

My Guest:

Pratichi Shah: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

Starting with your people, your culture and your leadership, how do you identify, talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit? My guest is Pratichi Shah, founder & CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions. (Originally aired 7/8/20)

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:01:54.44] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of chiari malformation if you pushed down on me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. You’re dismantling racism journey, starting with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you identify? Talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your non profit My guest is pretty itchy Shah, founder and Ceo at flourish Talent management Solutions. This originally aired July 8, 2020 Antonis take two planned giving in the pandemic era. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is you’re dismantling racism journey. It’s a real pleasure to welcome welcome. I’m not welcoming. I’m welcoming. I’m welcoming party Sheesha. She’s an HR strategist and thought leader with 25 years experience in all aspects of talent management. She’s making a face when I say 25 years human resources equity and inclusion and organizational development in the nonprofit and for profit arenas. She is founder and Ceo of flourish Talent management solutions. The company is at flourish tMS dot com Prodigy. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:56.44] spk_0:
Thank you so much. tony I appreciate being

[00:01:59.53] spk_1:
here. It’s a pleasure pleasure to have you. Um, and I’d like to jump right in if you’re if you’re ready um

[00:02:06.26] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:02:42.14] spk_1:
you know um racism and white privilege most often look very Benign on their face, I had a guest explain why use of the word professional in a job description is racist. I had a more recently I had a guest explain how not listening a salary range in a job description was felt racist to them. So how do we begin to uncover what is inequitable and right under our noses yet not visible on its

[00:02:45.54] spk_0:
face? Yeah. You know what often it starts with listening to state state a bit of the obvious. It really does started listening. It’s understanding for organizations. It’s understanding where we are. Um so it’s listening to the voices that may not have been centered. We’ve become better as organizations and being responsive to staff. I hear that a lot kind of hey this is what my staff is telling me. This is what we need to do. But the question is, are you responding to the voices that have possibly been marginalized? Likely been marginalized or oppressed in the past? General responsiveness is not the same as centering the voices that really need to be heard. So it’s first off just understanding where you are as an organization and listening to the people who may have experienced organization in a way that is different than you think.

[00:03:36.21] spk_1:
So when you say general responsiveness is not what not adequate, not what we’re looking for. What do you mean by that?

[00:04:35.54] spk_0:
So a lot of time the voices that are saying, hey something’s wrong or we need to do this or we need to do that are not the voices of those that have been marginalized and oppressed. They tend to be maybe the loudest voices they’re speaking maybe from a place of privilege and that needs to be taken into account. So being responsive, for instance, if the I call it kind of the almond milk issue being responsive to a staff that says in addition to dairy milk for coffee, this is back when we were in fiscal offices, um, we need almond milk to, but the question is is are we listening to the voices of those that weren’t able to consume the dairy milk? It’s not a perfect metaphor. It’s not a perfect analogy because that one ignores actual pain and it just talks about preference. But are we listening to the voices of people that have been impressed? Who have who have been, who have heard the word professional or professionalism wielded against them as a as an obstacle in their path to success in their path to career advancement. Those are the voices that we need to listen to, not the ones who have a preference for one thing or another.

[00:04:54.34] spk_1:
Okay, uh, let’s be explicit about how we identify who, who holds these voices? Who are these people?

[00:05:30.04] spk_0:
It’s people that have come from, it’s particularly right now when we talk about anti black racism, we need to center the voices of those from the black community. And that means those who have either, maybe not joined, not just not joined our organization for particular reasons, but maybe they have not joined our board, Maybe they have not participated in our programs, maybe they haven’t had the chance to. So it’s really from an organizational perspective, think of it as understanding what our current state is. So how does your organization move people up? Move people in, move people out if we don’t have the voices in the first place? Because maybe we’re not as welcoming as we should be, then what does the data tell us about? Who’s coming into our organization? Who is leaving our organization, Who is able to move up into our organization, what our leadership looks like, what our board looks like. So at times the fact that there is an absence of voice is telling in and of itself and our data needs to be able to explain what is going on. So that data needs to be looked at as well.

[00:06:38.64] spk_1:
So we need to very well, good chance we need to look outside our organization. You’re talking about people that we’ve turned down for board board positions, turned down for employment. Um, I’m not even gonna say turned down for promotion because that would presume that there’s still that that presumes are still in the organization, but I’m talking about, very likely going outside the organization. People who don’t work with us, who aren’t volunteering, who aren’t supporting us in any way, but we’ve marginalise them? We’ve cast them out before they even had a chance to get in?

[00:06:42.28] spk_0:
Potentially. Yeah, actually, probably, probably there is something that they have not found palatable or appealing about working with us or being a sensor or being uh, to your point of volunteer. So we need we need to look at why that’s happening.

[00:07:22.54] spk_1:
Okay. I’ve got to I got to drill down even further. How are we going to identify these people within within our organization as it is? How are we gonna figure out which people these are that we’ve marginalized these voices of color over the let’s just pick like in the past five years, what have we? Well, if we’ve done this, how do we identify the people? We’ve done it too.

[00:07:42.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a really it’s a complicated question. It will differ by organization, right? It differs by what your subsector is, how things flow within a subsector, the size of the organization. A really good place to start is understanding who has turned us down. Why have people left? So take a look at exit interviews. Even if you’re not doing exit interviews, we know that there is not always uh HR presence in a lot of our organizations. If there aren’t formal exit interviews. First of all, let’s make time for those because we need to understand why people are leaving. Um but if there isn’t a formal HR presence, what do we know about the circumstances under which someone left organization or said no to a job offer or said no to a board position or volunteer. It’s also important to ask, expanding our definition of stakeholder groups, engaging with all of our stakeholder groups as broadly defined as possible. And within those groups, understanding are we reaching out to a diverse audience to say why would you engage with us? Why would you not engage with us in any of those roles? So, yeah, it’s going to be a little bit harder to understand that people who are not there because they’re not there.

[00:08:51.84] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So all right. Um we go through this exercise and and we identify we we’ve identified a dozen people. They’re not they’re not currently connected to us. And uh it may be that they have had a bad experience with us. Yeah, I think they may have turned us down for employment because they got offered more money somewhere else. Um That could that in itself could be

[00:09:03.60] spk_0:
Alright, let’s

[00:09:57.24] spk_1:
that in itself could be uh not something other than benign. Um But let’s say they moved out of the state, you know, they were they were thinking about so so in some cases they may not have a bad have had a bad experience with us, but in but in lots of cases they may have they may have turned down that board position because they saw the current composition of the board and they didn’t feel they felt like, uh maybe being an offer a token slot or whatever, whatever it might be. I’m just, I’m just suggesting that some of the, some of the feelings toward the organization might not be negative, but some might very well be negative. Of the dozen people we’ve identified in all these different stakeholder, potential stakeholder roles that they could have had. Um, what do we reach out to them and say, how do we, how do we get them to join a conversation with an organization that they may feel unwelcome him?

[00:10:15.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think right now, especially we tried carefully. Um, we tried carefully and we honor the fact that they in fact might be getting that same question from many other other organizations, friends, colleagues, family members, in which people want to understand something, What we’re seeking to do is not be educated on the overall picture of white privilege, white supremacy of dominant narrative and dominant culture. That’s on us, that’s on all of us individually to understand that, that is not the, that is not up to the member of society, tell us that. Right? So what, what we want to understand is kind of, what did you experience with our organization? What was the good? What was the bad and first of all, do you even want to engage with us, Is this not a good time to do that because they’re already exhausted. I said to a colleague recently, you know, we can’t even understand the reality of what it’s like to live the right to live that reality and for many to lead the charge, right? Because they’re also showing leadership in the movement. So to we can’t even understand what those layers of existence or like. So I think it’s treading very carefully and should we have the ability to engage with someone because they have the space, the energy, the desire then I think it’s understanding and asking kind of what’s going on for us? What where did you find us either not appealing or where did you? Why did you not want to work with us in whatever capacity we were asking and it’s asking that question.

[00:11:34.80] spk_1:
Okay, well that’s further down, right? I’m just trying to get to like what’s the initial email invitation look like?

[00:11:54.24] spk_0:
It depends on the organization. It depends on the organization. It depends on the relationship. I wouldn’t presume to give words to that to be honest with you because because I think it also depends on the person that you’re asking. I don’t want to offer kind of a blanket response and inadvertently tokenize people by saying, oh, of course they’re going to want to engage with us. So I really think it’s dependent on the situation

[00:12:56.34] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want to hone your message? Turn to, we’ll work with you to find your core message and make it concise simple for the world to grasp. So that as they get you placed in major media, like you’ve heard me name, and also in podcasts in blogs, at conferences, on op ed pages. Your message, your voice will resonate. They’ll help you hone your message, find your voice and get it heard. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to your dismantling racism journey. What are you inviting them to do with you? Have a conversation, share your experience with us, Is it?

[00:13:44.14] spk_0:
Yes, essentially. I mean, that’s what it boils down to. But again, it really depends on what the organization is, Right? So this is your data collection moment. This is information collection. Where else are you collecting information? What what else do you know? What other steps have you taken to begin that educational process? Because there’s there’s kind of a dual purpose here, right? Is understanding who we are in, where we have contributed to structural racism, to pretend to a culture that does not support differing viewpoints, differing populations. That is in some ways upholding white supremacy or is completely holding upholding white supremacy and its culture. There’s that general education of understanding all of that, and then there’s understanding what our organization’s role is, right? So it’s both. And um, so it’s really highly dependent upon where is the organization? Uh case for us, who you’ve talked to? The head of Equity in the centre describes a cycle that is brilliant. Um around awake to woke to work. Where are you in that cycle? Are you? Where are you on? Um Where are you? And being pluralistic? Where are you? And being inclusive? All of those things depend on what you’ll ask and how you’ll reach out and if you even should reach out there maybe work that has to be done internally before that reach out can happen again. Just being considerate and sensitive of those who are willing to talk

[00:14:35.34] spk_1:
to you. Yeah. Okay. Was our guest for the last uh most recent special episode on this exact same subject. Thank you.

[00:14:37.78] spk_0:
Yeah. The organization is doing has been since its inception has been doing incredible work. K is leading that work um and both her words always contained wisdom and the products that they put out are extraordinary.

[00:15:09.44] spk_1:
How about in your work are you facilitating the kinds of conversations in your practice that you and I are talking about right now? Do you do you bring these outside folks in sometimes to to have these conversations

[00:15:53.24] spk_0:
sometimes? Yeah. Sometimes again being highly respectful of if they didn’t want to engage with us? Do they even want to talk to us right now. My work really is around um having an organization understand where it is right now. So what is its current state? What is the desire and future state? Right, so we know that we want to be a racially inclusive racially equitable organization likely that’s already been defined. But what does that mean for us as an organization If it means solely in numbers piece Right? Like we want to be more divorces aboard. Okay, that’s fine. But beyond that, how will we make ourselves have a board culture that is appealing to those people that we want to bring in to work with us? So it’s kind of defining both current state and understanding current state, defining future state and then developing the strategy to get there.

[00:16:09.14] spk_1:
Ok. And now you and I are talking about, you said, you know, we’re still data gathering. So we’re still defining the current culture as it exists. Right. Okay. Okay. And your work, you you centered around people. Culture and leadership.

[00:16:20.64] spk_0:
Mhm.

[00:16:24.34] spk_1:
Can we focus on leadership? I feel like everything trickles down from there.

[00:16:26.66] spk_0:
Very true.

[00:16:28.74] spk_1:
I don’t know. Are we okay? Are you okay starting with a leadership conversation or you’d rather start somewhere else?

[00:16:35.46] spk_0:
No, we can we can start that. That’s absolutely fine.

[00:16:48.84] spk_1:
Okay. Um so what what is it we’re looking for? Leaders of our listeners are small and midsize nonprofits to to commit you.

[00:16:54.74] spk_0:
I think it’s first of all committing to their own learning and and not relying on communities of color to provide that learning. Right? Again, going back to what we said earlier, it’s not relying on those who have been harmed or oppressed to provide the learning. So first of all, it’s an individual attorney that’s a given. Okay,

[00:17:25.14] spk_1:
can I like to, I like things like people. I like action steps. Okay, so when we’re talking about our individual journey, our own learning, I mean I’ve been doing some of this recently by watching Youtube, watching, um, focus on Youtube of course. Now now I can’t remember the names of people, but

[00:17:30.43] spk_0:
no Eddie Glaude.

[00:17:53.54] spk_1:
Um, so Eddie Glaude is a commentator on MSNBC. Uh, he’s just written a just released this last week a biography. Well, not so much a biography of James baldwin, but an explanation of baldwin’s journey around racism. Um, so that’s one example of, you know, who have been listening to? So we’re, so we’re talking about educating like learning from thought leaders around Yeah, privilege structures. Were reading books, listening to podcasts.

[00:18:00.12] spk_0:
Absolutely. It’s around, it’s around structures, but it’s also understanding things that we do all the time and organizations and how I as a leader might perpetuate those, right? So it’s sometimes the use of language to your point about the use of the word professional. Um, language tends to create our reality. So, and either language will build a bridge or not. So how do we use our language? How do we use our descriptors. How do I show up as a leader? Um, in my own kind of inclusion or not. So I think it is absolutely that is looking at thought leaders around things like structural racism around the use of language around people’s individual experiences to get that insight and depth because it’s not just an intellectual exercise. This is emotional too. And therefore has to have emotional resonance.

[00:18:51.24] spk_1:
Okay, thank you for letting me dive deeper into what

[00:18:55.21] spk_0:
Absolutely

[00:18:56.26] spk_1:
talk about personal, you know, your own personal journey, your own personal education, uh, fact finding and introspection. You’re talking about something, you know, and it’s no, no revelation. This is it’s

[00:19:09.42] spk_0:
difficult. If it’s painful.

[00:19:31.54] spk_1:
You know, you you’re very likely uncovering how you offended someone, uh, how you offended a group. Um, if you were, you know, speaking in public and something comes to mind or how you offended someone in meetings or, you know, multiplied. I don’t know how many times. I mean, this introspection is likely painful,

[00:19:39.44] spk_0:
likely likely. Yeah, more often, more often than not, I can’t I can’t really envision it not at some level being painful,

[00:19:43.27] spk_1:
but you’ve caused pain, you know, and there’s a recognition there.

[00:19:46.92] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:19:53.24] spk_1:
painful for you. But let’s consider the pain of the person or the group that

[00:19:54.35] spk_0:
you

[00:19:58.54] spk_1:
I don’t know offended, stereotyped. Mean, put off whatever it is, you’re

[00:20:01.84] spk_0:
that’s right. And that that’s why the work as much as I know, you know, to some degree, people want this to be work. That can be kind of project managed if you will or it can be put into a process or a series of best practices or

[00:20:14.08] spk_1:
benchmarks

[00:20:15.64] spk_0:
to some degree, not very much, but to some degree. Yes, absolutely. The some a little bit of that can happen, but that in and of itself is a bit of the dominant narrative, right? That in and of itself is kind of that that centering white culture. So I think what we need to understand is this is not just going to be again to sorry to be redundant, but it’s not just going to be intellectual.

[00:20:38.41] spk_1:
The

[00:20:39.04] spk_0:
fact that pain has been caused dictates that this be emotionally owned as well. It can’t be arm’s length. It can’t be just intellectually owned with the project plan that I keep over here on a chalkboard or something like that.

[00:21:02.64] spk_1:
Emotionally owned. Yeah. Thank you. All right. All right. So I made you digress and deepen what else, what else you wanna tell us about leadership’s commitment and and and the importance of leadership, commitment.

[00:23:24.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So it needs to be explicit. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be baked into the leadership. Whatever leadership structure the organization has, it needs to be an ongoing piece of that leadership. So it’s not a hey, let’s touch base on our quote inclusion initiative if it’s an initiative first of all, that’s not really doing the work anyway. Um, but it’s not something that lives separately from ourselves. Let’s have HR kind of check in on this or let’s have the operations person check in on this. That’s that’s not what this is about. It’s really, it’s authentically being owned by leadership to say? Yeah, I know it’s gonna be painful. And in looking at our organization, we’re gonna need to understand why our leadership is remarkably homogeneous. Which in the case of many nonprofits, it is if you take a look at Building Movement project and the unbelievably great work that they’ve done twice now, they just put out an update to their leadership work around how people move through the sector or don’t and how people, communities of color and people of color are represented in our leadership. We can begin to understand that by and large, they’re they’re not. Um though i that is an oversimplification in some ways. So I would encourage people to go to building movement project’s website and check out their work. Um but you know what, why are we so homogeneous? Why is there a board so homogeneous? It’s also unpacking and uncovering that. So to your point earlier about, you know, how do we look at people and how they move through the organization? This is where you look at who is present, right? Not just who’s not with us, but who is with us? How do people get Promoted? How does that system work does any does everyone have the same information? Is it a case of unwritten rules, is it a case of some people move up because they’re similar or they have 10 years of experience, which is something that we like to say, How do you get 10 years of experience if you have not been given those chances to begin with. So is their life experience that we can that we can begin to integrate in our conversations because life experience is equally valuable. Are we putting too much of a premium on higher education education and its formal kind of traditional form? Are we putting too much of uh of an emphasis on pedigree of other kinds of those? Those are the things that ultimately keep people out. So taking a look at leadership and having leadership commitment ultimately means looking at all of those things. There’s an overlap and how we look at leadership or people and or organizational culture.

[00:23:46.14] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. This is a it’s a continuum or

[00:23:48.53] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely. And the areas bleed into each other.

[00:24:10.04] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. Um and you know, I subsumed in all this I guess. I mean it’s okay for leaders to say, I don’t know where the where the journey is going, I don’t know what we’re going to uncover, but I’m committed to having this journey and leading it and and right. I mean, supporting it, but I don’t know what we’re gonna find. Right.

[00:24:16.74] spk_0:
Right, right. And that in and of itself can be uncomfortable for a lot of people and that’s that’s the kind of discomfort we need to get okay with.

[00:24:30.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Alright. Yeah. You know I had I had a guest explained that this is not as you were alluding to? Uh it’s not the kind of thing that you know, we’re gonna have a weekly meeting and will be these outcomes at the end of every meeting then we’ll have this list of activities and you know the you know, how come it’s not like that? How come we can’t do it like that?

[00:25:02.24] spk_0:
Yeah. Because we’re dealing with hundreds and hundreds of years of history and it’s because we haven’t been inclusive in the ways that we do things and we haven’t allowed whole selves to show up that it is um It’s it’s complicated and it’s messy because it’s human.

[00:25:05.74] spk_1:
All right, so it’s not gonna be as simple as our budget meetings

[00:25:08.84] spk_0:
today. Right. Absolutely different. Different kind of

[00:25:13.26] spk_1:
hard. Alright. We’re going to have an outcome at every at every juncture at every step or every week or every month or something. Yeah.

[00:25:19.48] spk_0:
That’s right. That’s right. And if we expect it to go that way, we are likely going to give ourselves excuses not to press on.

[00:27:00.64] spk_1:
It’s time for tony state too planned giving in the pandemic era. That’s my webinar coming up. I’m hosted for it by J. M. T. Consulting. Very grateful to them for hosting. We’re doing this on Thursday, September 30, 2 to 3 o’clock Eastern time planned. Giving in the pandemic era. So what am I going to talk about, what is planned? Giving? We’ve got to start with that right. What this thing is who your best prospects are? Where to start your program and the overarching. How does this all fit into our pandemic era? So I hope you’ll be with me to uh reserve your spot. It’s free. It’s a free webinar now by the way. But you do have to make a reservation. So to do that, you go to J. M. T. Consulting dot com Juliet mike, tango, J. M. T. Consulting dot com. Go to events and then pull down to lackluster speaker series and I’ll be the sole person listed there. They have an expert speaker series. That’s for everybody else. But now you have to actually uh, they were gracious enough to uh, not only host me but uh lump me in with the the expert speakers. So you do have to go to expert speaker series and you’ll find me right there. So I hope you’ll be with me Thursday September 30 two o’clock eastern

[00:27:02.44] spk_0:
for

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
planned giving in the pandemic era. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your dismantling racism journey. All right. So that’s what it’s not what what does it look like.

[00:28:42.04] spk_0:
Oh, it absolutely looks different for every organization. It absolutely looks different for every organization and that’s what’s so critical to understand. Kind of, where are we right now? Um, where are we? As far as all of the components of our organization. Right. So volatile again, volunteers ford staff culture. You said, you know, we were talking about people organization and leadership which is obviously a lot of my work. Um it is getting underneath all of those kinds of things to say. So who experiences our culture? How? Um so we do engagement surveys, Right. A lot of times we do engagement employee surveys, that kind of thing. Are we looking at those disagreeing disaggregated way? Are we asking different populations to identify themselves? And are we looking at what the experiences are by population? Are we asking explicit questions around whether or not you feel like you can be yourself in this organization, Whether you can provide dissenting opinions, whether you feel comfortable approaching your boss with feedback. Um whether you feel comfortable volunteering for particular work, whether you feel like you understand what a promotion or performance management processes, whether you get the support that you need or to what extent you get support that you need either from colleagues, boss leadership etcetera. So it’s looking at all of those things and then understanding are they being experienced differently by different communities within our organization.

[00:28:52.54] spk_1:
You mentioned disaggregate ng. That’s where the data is not helpful. Right?

[00:28:53.54] spk_0:
That is where we look at the data in terms of populations.

[00:28:57.94] spk_1:
Oh, Oh, aggregate, of course. Aggregating. I’m sorry.

[00:29:01.32] spk_0:
That’s OK.

[00:29:02.24] spk_1:
You’re stuck with a lackluster host. No, of course, yes. Aggregating

[00:29:06.02] spk_0:
early in the week.

[00:29:22.74] spk_1:
Uh Thank you. You couldn’t say early in the day, but thank you for being gracious. Okay. Yes. We uh we we want to disaggregate of course. Um and look by population and I guess cut a different way. I mean depending on the size of the organization. Um Age, race, age,

[00:29:26.74] spk_0:
race, ethnicity, um A physical ability, orientation. All of those need to be in the mix gender as well, including gender fluidity. So really looking at all of our populations and then understanding for these particular questions, is there a difference and how people experience our organization? We know then what we do know is that if there is a difference that there is a difference, we don’t know that there is causality unless there unless you’ve asked questions that might begin to illuminate that, right? But there’s always that difference between correlation and causality and then what you want to do is get underneath that to understand why the experience might be different and why it might change along lines of gender or race or ethnicity or orientation or physical ability.

[00:30:19.04] spk_1:
We uh we wandered, you know? But that’s that’s fine.

[00:30:22.60] spk_0:
I love it’s all part of the people in organization part

[00:30:31.84] spk_1:
people culture and um and leadership all coming together. Um uh Where do you want to go? Uh I mean I would like to talk about people. Culture and leadership. What’s a good what’s a good next one?

[00:32:30.34] spk_0:
Yes. Well, so this is what you’re doing, right? Is your collecting information and all of those three areas. Right and wanted. So a couple of things that I would add to that is when you look at people, you’re looking at their experiences, when you look at leadership, you’re looking at commitment makeup, structure, access, all of those kinds of things. When you’re looking at culture, you’re looking at how people experience the culture, right? And so what is happening? What’s not happening with stated out loud? What’s not stated out loud? What are the unwritten rules? There is also the piece that forms all of these things, which is operational systems. Right? So things like performance management, things like um where people may sit back when we were in physical offices, having access to technology, all of those kinds of things, particularly important now that we’re not in physical offices, so does everyone have access to the technology and information necessary to do their job, to do their jobs to do their work? So it is looking also at your operational side and saying how do we live our operational life? How do, how do people experience it, who do we engage with to provide services for our operations? How do we provide the services if you will, for lack of better term to our employees? So it’s also looking at that because operations ultimately permeates organizational culture, people and leadership, right? Because it kind of sustains all of that. So taking a look at that too. And finally, I would suggest again as part of this and as a wraparound is, what is the internal external alignment? Right. So I often hear people say, hey, you know what, this is the subsector we work in, people would think that we’re really equitable, but internally we are living a different life than what we are putting out to our stakeholders in our constituencies externally. So what is what is our external life and how does that need to inform our internal world? It’s not unusual for me to hear that the external life, the way we engage with stakeholders or the way we put out program programmatic work is actually may be further along to the extent that this is considered to be a continuum. It’s further along than the way that we’re living our life. Internal life

[00:32:53.10] spk_1:
dishonesty there disconnect that

[00:32:56.54] spk_0:
there’s a disconnect disconnect for sure. And possibly yeah, dishonesty. And hip hop, maybe even hypocrisy.

[00:33:09.04] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Alright, but again, all right, so now we’re looking like this is organizational introspection. There’s there’s individual learning and introspection. Now we’re at the organizational

[00:33:14.34] spk_0:
level, being

[00:33:15.78] spk_1:
honest with our, with our culture and our messaging,

[00:33:19.84] spk_0:
right? And and so what I tried to do is to help organizations kind of look at those things and decide how we might evolve, given the future that we’ve set our sights on and given some of the principles that we’ve laid out, how do we kind of get there? How do we, how do we evolve our systems, how do we evolve our people practices? How do we evolve our culture? So hence the need to look at all of these things that centered around people, Culture and leadership.

[00:34:07.54] spk_1:
What about the use of professional facilitator? Because well, first of all, there’s a body of expertise that someone like you brings uh but also help with these difficult conversations. Talk about the value of having an expert facilitator.

[00:35:20.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. So so you know, I think I think there’s always a level of objectivity and and kind of an inside look by an outsider that you that you benefit from. We go to experts for everything from, you know, our health to the extent that we have access to those experts, which is a whole different conversation on race and oppression. Um we we want that external voice. What I would say is it’s likely not going to be the same expert or the same facilitator and I say expert in quotes um for everything. So for instance, I am not the voice to be centred on educating an organization around structural racism. I don’t think I’m the right voice to be centered. I would rather send her voices like those at um race forward at equity in the center at those who have lived the results of 400 years of oppression. So you might want to call in someone for that discussion for that education. There are people that are better and more steeped in that and whose voices should absolutely be centered for that? Um You might want to call in a voice for White Ally ship because there is some specifics around that that we need to talk about without kind of centering White voices.

[00:35:27.85] spk_1:
I’m sorry White Ally ship.

[00:35:29.92] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:35:30.46] spk_1:
What is that?

[00:36:50.63] spk_0:
So if we think about the the organization right in our kind of culture and are people who who wants to half sees themselves as an ally and how can they be good? How can how can white people be good allies? Right. And how do we further and embed that in the culture? Um and then finally, so keeping that in mind that there are going to be different experts or different facilitators for different things, you know, who is going to be the person in my case, this actually might be is to help us evolve our culture and our systems so that we can be more equitable and take a look at that. Who’s going to provide the training because their skills necessary. Right to have these conversations. There are foundational communication skills, there is the ability to give feedback. Um there is the ability to communicate across cultures across genders across across groups. There is ability to be collaborative. So so also strengthening those skills while we continue to look at those things, but to think that all of this help is going to come from one source is not ideal and likely it’s even inappropriate because everyone can’t be everything. I don’t try to be the voices that I can’t be. It’s inappropriate for me to do that. Mhm.

[00:36:54.73] spk_1:
What what else do you want to, what do you want to talk about given the level where that we’re at? We’re trying to help small and midsize nonprofits inaugurate a journey around racism and white privilege.

[00:38:42.82] spk_0:
I think. I mean, look, first of all, I hear a lot of organizations say like what what is the access point? Like what do I get started doing? We put out a statement um in some cases we are experiencing some dissonance between the statement that we put out or the programmatic work that we do and the way that we’re living internally. So it is really understanding kind of where are we now, through all of the ways that we’ve been talking about over the last several minutes, where are we now? What is it that we’re not doing that we should be doing? What is it that we need to be doing? How do we define for us? If we have an equitable culture, if we are living racial equity, what does that look like for us? Um how does that affect our programmatic work? How does that affect our operations? Everything from our finances to our people processes to when we’re back in an office, even our physical setup, how how does that affect us and how would we define that future state? So it’s understanding what is my current state, What is my future state and then understanding how we get there and it’s likely going to be a long, all of the areas that we said right? So individual attorneys, some group and individual skill building, um, some evolution of our systems and some understanding of kind of how we can support each other and support ourselves for those that are that affiliate with a particular group. Um, and then kind of moving us along to that place of where we want to be. So it is, it is understanding where you are that determines what your access point is. But I would say if you if you have done the work of putting out this statement then there then look for look for where you’re not living that statement internally.

[00:38:55.72] spk_1:
That sounds like a very good place to Yeah. To start your search for for an access point because it’s so recent, Your organization has probably said something in the past 5, 6 weeks.

[00:39:00.82] spk_0:
Absolutely. And

[00:39:01.79] spk_1:
close are you hewing to that to that statement?

[00:39:20.22] spk_0:
Exactly. And we are incredibly, I would say important the use of the term but almost fortunate that so many thought leaders have been kind and generous enough to share with us their thoughts on this moment. So not just within the sector, but all the way across our society. So many people have taken the time and the patients and the generosity amidst everything else that they’re living through. They have agreed to share their thoughts, their leadership, their expertise with us? So there is a ton of knowledge out there right at our fingertips and that’s a, that’s another really great place to start and to center the voices that most need to be heard

[00:39:52.72] spk_1:
at the same time. You know, we are seeing beginnings of change. Uh institutions from Princeton University to the state of Mississippi

[00:40:14.41] spk_0:
right? Absolutely. To hopefully, uh, you know, the unnamed Washington football team and to Nascar and places where we, I didn’t know that change necessarily was possible, but we we are saying change and and the important thing is to not be complacent about that change,

[00:41:18.61] spk_1:
right? And not and also recognize that it’s just the beginning, you know, removing confederate statues, um taking old glory off the Mississippi flag. These are just beginnings, but but I think worth worth noting. I mean worth recognizing and celebrating because the state of Mississippi is a big institution and it’s been wrestling with this for, I don’t know if they’ve been wrestling for centuries, but that flag has been there for that just that long, right? 18. Some things I think is when that flag was developed. So it’s been a long, it’s been a long time coming. So recognizing it for what it is celebrating it to the extent that the, yeah, to the extent that represents the change. Beginning of the beginning of change? All right. Um, well, you know, what else, what else, what else do you want to share with folks at this, you know, at this

[00:42:02.10] spk_0:
stage? You know, I think, I think the main thing is um, dig in uh, we need to dig in on this. We need to dig in on this because in the same way that that we have been living this society societally for so long are organizations many times are microcosms of society. So if we think as an organization that were exempt or that were already there, we’ve arrived at like a post racial culture, that’s not the case. That’s just not the case. Um, so where do you want to dig it? Where do you want to dig in, chances are good. You are doing some version of looking at issues within your organization, whether it’s your annual survey, if you do it annually or whatever in which you can use that information to begin this journey. So dig in from where you are, it’s one of those things that if you’re waiting, if you’re waiting for kind of the exact right time or further analysis to begin the journey again, it’s not, it’s not based solely on analysis. There is a there is certainly information, there’s data that needs to be understood. But if we’re waiting for endless analysis to happen or to kind of point us to the right time that’s not going to happen. The intellectualism needs to be there. But again, as we said in the path, as we said a few times during the course of our conversation? This is about emotional residents and an emotional ownership and a moral obligation. So, dig in dig in wherever you are right now,

[00:43:15.10] spk_1:
what if I’m trying within my organization? Uh, and I’m not the leader, I’m not even second or third tier management or something, you know, how do I elevate the conversation? Uh, I presume it helps to have allies. What if what if I’m meeting a resistance from the people who, who are in leadership?

[00:43:50.50] spk_0:
I think look for the places where they’re made, not the resistance, right? So look within the organization. Um, if there is resistance at a particular level, then you know, who do you have access to in the organization where there isn’t that? And I think, I think starting out not assuming that you have solutions if you have expertise in this area, if you have lived through the oppression as a member of a community that has lived through the impression particularly black community, I think you’re coming from one place, if you are if you are not in that community and saying that you have expertise, I think you have to be a little bit more circumspect about that and introspective about what you can offer in this vein. Um, and I think, I think we want to look for the places where there is some traction, I think in most organizations, it’s not unusual to be getting the question right now

[00:44:25.59] spk_1:
and what is the I don’t want to call it outcome. What, what, what what can the future look like for our organization if we do embark on this long journey?

[00:44:42.89] spk_0:
Yeah, cultures that are equitable in which people can show up as their whole selves. Um, in which there is not only one right way to do things, which tends to be a very kind of white dominant Western culture, linear sequential way of managing work, of managing communications, etcetera. But that in fact work can be approached in a number of different ways and that solutions can be approached in a number of different ways. People get to show up and give their all to these missions that we all hold very near and dear. And so they are able they’re empowered. They are able they are celebrated without sticking to a set of preconceived guidelines or preconceived, unwritten or written rules that don’t serve us anymore. Anyway,

[00:45:24.49] spk_1:
when you started to answer that, I saw your face lighten up. You’re I don’t know, it was a smile. It just looks like you’re faced untended. Not that you’re

[00:45:31.70] spk_0:
nervous. Your face changed

[00:45:34.58] spk_1:
started to answer the where we could be.

[00:45:37.19] spk_0:
Who doesn’t like to imagine that future?

[00:45:43.99] spk_1:
Yeah, it was it was palpable. All right. All right. Are you comfortable leaving it there?

[00:45:46.59] spk_0:
I think so, I think so. What have we not covered that we need to cover for your listeners,

[00:45:52.59] spk_1:
you know that better than I

[00:45:54.68] spk_0:
for

[00:45:55.65] spk_1:
the place there at getting started.

[00:45:57.76] spk_0:
That’s fair. Look, you know what this is, this is the future that is written with many voices. And while I think I can be helpful, I don’t presume to be the voice that has all the answers I definitively don’t, I definitively don’t. And so what we have not covered is actually probably not known to me, but I dare say someone, someone out there does know that and they will likely be putting their voice up, which is exactly what we want.

[00:46:24.04] spk_1:
We will be bringing other voices as well. Alright,

[00:46:26.99] spk_0:
no doubt. Yeah,

[00:46:39.78] spk_1:
Patricia, she’s founder and Ceo of flourished Talent management Solutions and the company is at flourish tMS dot com. PCI thank you so much. Thank you very, very much.

[00:46:42.48] spk_0:
tony thank you. Thank you for opening up this space and having the conversation

[00:47:18.68] spk_1:
a pleasure. Uh it’s a responsibility and uh happy to live up to it. Try trying next week the activist activates activism with Amy sample ward if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez.

[00:47:23.33] spk_0:
Mark Silverman is

[00:47:51.68] spk_1:
our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great, Yeah, what?

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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello

[00:00:09.59] spk_1:
and welcome to

[00:00:10.46] spk_2:
tony-martignetti non profit

[00:01:46.64] spk_1:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with like the Asus vulgaris if you drive me out with the idea that you missed this week’s show effective fundraising. That’s Warren Mcfarland’s new book. It’s written for potential board members, but it’s a valuable study for those on the ground doing the work. tony state too planned giving in the pandemic era were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s my pleasure to welcome Warren McFarlane to the show. F Warren Mcfarland is the Albert H. Gordon? Professor of Business Administration Emeritus at Harvard Business School. So F Warren McFarlane is the guy I’m talking to. Albert H. Gordon is the guy who endowed professorship He fr McFarland has spent the past 40 years serving on social enterprise boards, helping organizations find the right leaders advanced their missions and raise the necessary supporting funds. I don’t know anything more about Albert H. Gordon. F Warren Mcfarland is a retired esteemed professor. You don’t need a website. You don’t need twitter Warren, welcome to the occasionally crass

[00:01:48.87] spk_0:
non profit radio it’s directly with you this morning.

[00:01:54.74] spk_1:
What’s a pleasure? Thank you for joining us. Congratulations on the book.

[00:01:56.44] spk_0:
Thank you very much it’s been uh

[00:02:36.24] spk_1:
and you’ve written it for trustees are really potential trustees, but I think there are a lot of good lessons in here for for folks who are doing fundraising. So that’s why, you know, because our audience isn’t so much potential trustees, but it is fundraising on the ground in small and midsize nonprofits. So very apt subject. And I was glad to hear about your book. You Pretty much open with a chapter chapter #2 on governance governance. Why do you, why do you put governance ahead of getting into the fundraising topics in the

[00:02:57.74] spk_0:
book? I think because governance sets the context for fundraising. The governor’s committee on the board, I think is probably the most important of the committees and they are the people responsible for identifying the people that will serve on the board. That will be able to help, uh, fundraising in one way or another, either personally or helping to make connections, general context and, and, and so forth. So that I really put it up because the three major roles of a nonprofit board, our number one approving the mission and the strategy of their uh, number two, hiring retaining and supporting the Ceo and certainly basically helping to secure the funds. And that’s a hard, difficult kind of things. My friends who head up nonprofits repeatedly say it’s 50% of their time that is spent on that. And it’s just hard, difficult kind of work. And that’s why I really, you wrote the book to help focus new board members attention on how vital their role was in helping to set the context for an organization to succeed.

[00:04:00.94] spk_1:
Yeah, fundraising. So let’s give a shout out to your previous book, which dealt with those three topics, but this book fleshes out the fundraising that the third of Exactly yes. Your tell folks what your your first book was that had more focused on the first two of those

[00:04:06.74] spk_0:
the

[00:04:07.63] spk_1:
roles of the board.

[00:04:26.44] spk_0:
The first, my first book was really aimed on governance of nonprofits, what a board member needs to know. And it really looked in a very broad kind of way. You’re focusing on mission structure, uh budgeting, planning and so forth. And that fundraising was one of the pieces in the book, but it was such an important piece. And I’ve been spending so much time working on it that I really felt there was need for another book to kind of taken and blow apart. Was one chapter in the other book into the, into this book.

[00:04:50.04] spk_1:
Yeah, because we know fundraising is at least 50% of an effective ceos time spent. And you make that point in the book a couple of times, but give a shout out what’s the exact title of the previous book?

[00:04:56.56] spk_0:
Uh Corporate Information Systems Management, I’m sorry?

[00:05:00.07] spk_1:
No, no, that that can’t be a different book for a different,

[00:05:11.64] spk_0:
I have to have to go back and think of something, but it was basically joining a nonprofit board. What you need to know.

[00:05:26.84] spk_1:
Okay, so is that it joining? Okay, because we’re talking about effective fundraising, the trustees role and beyond. Uh, and, uh, okay. So the previous one. Okay, joining a nonprofit board. What you need to know? Exactly. Right. Well, I don’t know why I doubted the author of the book. Just you maybe a little nervous when you talk about corporate information systems. I don’t know. That’s a

[00:05:35.79] spk_0:
different, wasn’t really part of my

[00:05:52.64] spk_1:
life. It’s a different, it’s a different book. The man’s prolific. You know, he gets, he’s written so many books. He gets the book titles confused. That’s all right. All right. Um, I’m not sure that many of our listeners, again, small and mid sized shops have a governance committee specifically. What’s, what’s the role of that committee? They may be doing governance maybe in their executive committee. Perhaps it doesn’t get smaller, smaller and midsize or what’s the role of the governance

[00:06:52.24] spk_0:
committee? It’s basically, it’s a nominating committee. Its role is to attract, uh, the right kinds of trustees to the organization to help talk them into doing it, to help get them, uh, slotted into the right kind of role. Worry about getting the right people and then helping them as when they finished their term to be involved in other ways because one of the critical things. And so I view that, uh, for for profit boys are very different. I’ve served in a number of them. They’re very exciting. And when you’re over the job is over. You’re gone for a nonprofit board. This is meant to be a lifelong relationship and one of the organization work. That’s right now why we’ve Now developed a committee of some, uh, 35 former board members. We have them sitting on various committees and so forth. And with that, they have stayed involved with the organization. And with it comes a philanthropy. They’re building willingness to keep people you involved. So is this an entirely different kind of concept? And it means that you have to that a nonprofit board is often less efficient because you have to deal with people’s idiosyncrasies in a way that you don’t in the for profit world because I’m not actually going to take a major donor who’s a little bit careless and sort of, you’ll cut them off too sharply.

[00:07:39.64] spk_1:
Yeah. You make a good point about the trusteeship and the end of the trusteeship still being a, uh, warren, are you able to silence those? Um, that sounds like an email notification you’re getting. Are you able to,

[00:07:51.97] spk_0:
I’m sorry.

[00:08:25.04] spk_1:
Okay, no problem. Thank you. Um, the end of the trusteeship is just a continuation in the spectrum of the, the lifetime relationship with the nonprofit. I, I think a lot of non profit to make a mistake there and they figure, okay, the person served three years, six years, Hopefully not more than six. That’s another subject. But, you know, they’ve served their time. And, and now they just, you know, we hope they’ll continue to give. But that’s the end of sort of the, uh, it’s the end of the volunteer volunteering of the relationship. And I think that’s a mistake. Your, your former board members. You know, there may be an emeritus board or some kind of an advisory board or, you know, some other way to not lose that expertise that they gained while they were trustees.

[00:09:18.14] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s exactly the key point that I recall her often, a board of advisors or a corporation or two things that people, you know, calling for. And that was it. One of the jobs economic committee is to help figure out what the new, as somebody comes near the end of their term, how they will be able to be involved and get them involved in in the right kind of way now. And that basically tremendously increases your footprint. You must have term on that because you need to continually bring new people in while you’re bringing them and then in why taking care of the older people is, is, uh, can be, it’s, you’ve got a lot of value ideas and also philanthropy wise.

[00:09:35.34] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Think through that, that post board member post trusteeship relationship,

[00:09:57.74] spk_0:
I’m involved in four board, I’m involved in for nonprofit boys. Now, the links to them go back over almost 40 years and it’s evolved from one setting to another. And the power, you know, grows. And so that there was an annual giving then there was, uh, capital campaign giving. And at my stage in life now, why planned giving? It turns out to be a particularly important thing.

[00:10:25.04] spk_1:
Sure. Yeah. You say the fundraiser is an educator of donors. That’s a, that’s a pretty, uh, basic lesson. But I want you to flush it out for folks because sometimes basic lessons are, you know, they’re foundational for a reason they’re worth revisiting and thinking about why, why do you say fundraisers are educators of donors?

[00:11:50.34] spk_0:
It’s really helping somebody to understand how they can go about, um, contributing in ways they haven’t thought, I mean, they, that I’m working with somebody right now and they’re that some tragedy in their family. And we’ve been able to sort of help them think through how this new facility they’re building, is going to help the organization and help their grief and fill their needs. So that, uh, it’s, uh, it’s very important that when I go out and ask people from, uh, you know, for money, I’m not asking them for money. I’m asking for them to be able to contribute contribute to society in a way bigger than they can on their own. And it’s, it’s really opening up an opportunity for the person opportunity they often haven’t thought about in their, in their own ways. And that you’re one of the things that died. And I talked about this for trustees is that the first thing that I do is in fact, the trustee is you’ve got to believe in the cause and have made your own contribution because when it comes right down to crunch time and I’m looking somebody in the eye and they say warrant, what have you done first? You know, this is my number one or two financing and this is and here’s why I’ve done it. That there’s a credibility that that comes out of it. And the reality is that many donors, their lives are busy and they haven’t thought through the array of alternatives they can contribute to and how they can go about extending their leverage.

[00:12:12.34] spk_1:
So the fundraisers job is to educate, educate them and educate about the work that’s being done also what those exactly those programs are doing. Um I I presume you’re a believer in 100% participation, fundraising participation on the board.

[00:12:33.74] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean on the one hand and say, and people give in relation of capacity, I was the chairman of the board of the hospital. I’m sorry. You

[00:12:39.30] spk_1:
cut out a little bit there people

[00:12:40.35] spk_0:
give chairman. I was a chairman of a border.

[00:12:42.79] spk_1:
Wait 11 further step back. People giving what level, What did you say?

[00:13:07.34] spk_0:
I say people, Uh, it’s not the level that you give your question. It was your your question was do I believe in 100%. I do, but I want to say at the hospital board share. I valued the $25 I got from the homeless mother in East Cambridge As much as I did. The 200,000 from the main present because she was the eyes and ears of the community. She gave enormous value and her commitment was to the institution. So that’s why I believe in the 100%.

[00:13:30.14] spk_1:
Right? And, and of course for someone without a home, $25 as a stretch gift. So, yes. All right. And so you you would you go along the philosophy that there’s not a minimum giving level for for for every board member, every board member gives something that’s a stretch for their capacity, given their capacity. Is that is that how you would define it?

[00:13:44.54] spk_0:
Or? The answer is yes. But uh, yes. Yes. But

[00:13:50.98] spk_1:
that’s fair. Yes.

[00:13:51.89] spk_0:
Yes. It is on the real high end gifts. I might be willing to be the number of four philanthropy. I have two or three situations I’ve been in where, you know, somebody has given me a sort of a go away uh, token gift to them which has actually helped the enterprise meets goals. They didn’t even know they could have. So, I mean, it’s one of the things that we find in uh, in 2021 is that the shape of the giving pyramid has really become much steeper and taller. And so therefore the people at the top of the uh, the Jeff Bezos, his wife Mackenzie and so forth. I mean they uh, a small gift for her is a transforming gift, you know, for the receiving your organization. So that’s, that’s kind of the exception that I was referring to.

[00:15:04.24] spk_1:
And then after someone has given you, you talk about stewardship as you know, the engagement of past donors and trustees. And you say, stewardship is not an overhead item, but an offensive weapon. So let’s talk about stewardship. What, what, why? Why again, basic lessons. But, you know, I want people to get your perspective, ownership is a stewardship is so damn important,

[00:16:29.24] spk_0:
um, that you give a gift, um, for, uh, let’s say for an endowed chair that you maybe do that if you’re in your fifties or sixties, that when they come back and tell you how that chair is performing, it’s an opportunity for them to engage your thinking on the next level and the next level that, uh, one of them is going through a very different situation hospital where they didn’t report how the gifts were doing. You know, for people they gave, and they were wondering why people were dropping off the whole notion of it’s a lifelong engagement. And when you come in to tell somebody how their, uh, previous investment organizations doing, there’s a lot of interest on that part of the person hearing, how did their money do, But you’re also there in the opportunity to talk about other kinds of things and opportunities and move the discussion forward. And it may have been that an annual fund gift around the class reunion that may in due course lead no to a capital campaign. You’ll give, you know, somewhat further on down the road and it may be a plan gift even, you know, you know further down the road. And of course the art of the question is when you’re managing these lifelong relationships, you have to be careful not to move too much clothes quickly because if you in fact uh, get the short term gift, you may also be turning off the long term relationship, which can be more important. That’s that’s why this is such an art to this, this fundraising.

[00:17:19.84] spk_1:
Yeah. And and there’s a whole variety of stewardship methods, you’re focusing on reporting on the impact. But you know, if, if the first few gifts are, you know, in the 150 to $500 range, No, that’s, it’s hard to place impact, put impact upon that. But how, how would you steward those three and low four figure gifts? Uh

[00:18:15.94] spk_0:
It’s actually your point is that one of the first things when somebody graduates from college is we have all kinds of incentives to just get in the habit of giving $50 for $100 you know, for each of the 1st 10 years and you have a 10 year giving club that has given 10 years in a row, all 10 years enrolled for a, somebody who’d gone for 22 to 32 doesn’t add up to a lot. But the habit of delivering the habit of giving the engagement and so forth. That’s what’s really laying the seeds for much deeper support of some of them. You’re further down the road. And

[00:18:59.44] spk_1:
that makes me think of another stewardship method. You know, the recognition society, I think a lot of folks don’t think about having a recognition society based on longevity of giving. So you know, of course you’re using the, you know, 10 years, someone graduates from college if you can get them in a habit of giving for 10 years, there’s a very good chance unless you blow it That, you know, they’ll be giving for the next 40 and 50 years in increasing increments and in different ways and as as you’ve talked about. But that that method of recognizing giving for longevity, those folks who have been given to you for 25, 30 years and there’s longstanding organizations that have donors that do go back that far And maybe, you know, maybe maybe out of 30 years, the person missed two years as you give them a break or something, you know, but what you have, I mean, I longevity, not just the dollar amount each year

[00:20:08.64] spk_0:
as you’re talking about a fearful reports from right to my mind where the little asterisks, beside the people who’ve given for each of the last 10 years and double asterisks for the last one and you actually look at it and that of course is, you know, one of the things that’s important is that development people want to a point that putting out development reports and give them reports and so Fort is very expensive and you really should do this on the web and on screen. The fact of the matter is when I’m at my most philosophic, I’m flipping through report and I’m saying what my classmates or associates did on, it’s an organization my Children involved, I may flick back down to another part of saying and it just turned out to be false economies and a lot of the people that have undone the paper stuff and brought online have had to back off the other way because discussions and ruminations which were important were taking place.

[00:20:14.10] spk_1:
Yeah. You, you, you have some uh, anecdotes about that in, in the book which you know, we can, we can go, we can’t dive into all the stories. You just got to get the book. You just got to buy effective fundraising. So

[00:20:50.94] spk_0:
just start, uh, it starts from the very beginning, I think for example, uh, as I entered Harvard College as a freshman And my second day there, I’m sitting with 1100 people in the room and somebody is talking right and left and those are the people that aren’t there because you’re there and you’re feeling pretty good. And the next comment he made blew my mind, he said, and every last one of you was on financial aid. Uh, my father did not communicate me, talked a lot about the expense and he said, you’re here because of the philanthropy and generosity of the generations that came before. But at your 25th reunion, you will have an opportunity, will pay that generosity and the numbers went something like that. That thing just slow across the room. And 1100 mines. A lot of it’s stuck there. And, and the 20th reunion, there was a $200,000 gift. And at the 25th, there was an 8.5 million and the 35th. It was a 25. And that the habit, you lay the idea down very early

[00:22:40.24] spk_1:
On the very first day, they say 25th, he’s already got you giving to the 25th reunion. That’s right. Right. Right. All right now. seven. It doesn’t have to be a college. There’s there’s a very good lesson there. My synesthesia is kicking in. I’m getting goose bumps. Thank you. They listen talking about this. Uh, yeah, there’s a very good, you know, you get people in early and you and you and you cultivate those relationships. You cultivate that, that relationship long term from the, from the outset, You know, so, so for your organization’s, you know, take the lesson there. You may not, you may not be a school, you know, the first day of college, but you can be cultivating from the very early stages. Absolutely, a long term relationship. All right? Yeah, stewardship critical again, warren calls it an offensive weapon. Um, let’s talk about the head of the development Committee. This is something that I’m sure listeners do have. Even if, you know, even if it’s a small board, there’s at least a development committee of, you know, two, maybe three folks. But you spend time on the, on the, you know, in the, in the parties to the, to the board, talking about the head of the Development Committee and some skills that you like to see there. What what are you looking for in, in that position?

[00:26:09.54] spk_0:
If somebody who’s got to be able to mobilize other trustees to come and join in the giving operation, the ability to reach out, uh, into the rest of the board, make them understand this is part of their job. They had somebody who, whatever their going out and talking about the organization. The organization is in their mind maybe to me don’t, but uh, Is a, it’s a job that’s 24 hours per day, seven days a week, and even more so for the development person. But uh, I just remember a situation that, uh, I was heading up the capital campaign for a religious organization, came out in the Boston Common in early january, you know, the temperature was about two degrees, the wind was blowing. It was miserable. I had 300 yards to go and I ran into one of my former students, uh going on, he stopped and said, what are you doing? I said, I’m going off, you know, to to join this. Uh this just felt me, this religious organization said, oh, you know, I’m a member of that religion, this is somebody who has, his wealth was considerable. And I just kind of stopped and said, well, you’ll tell me more. The temperature suddenly went up to about 60 degrees, the wind dropped down and I said, I was a senior warden of my church down in New Jersey. Yes, I said, but you’re not there anymore, So which church do you belong somewhere? I’m now up with the one in Wellesley. And I said, that’s terrific. And we disappeared out. I got to the office and sat down and he said, listen, this is what it is all about. And that my former student was in his office, you know, three weeks later for lunch and over lunch, you know why? That the head of the terrorist organization uh expressed an interest to actually see this person perform in the classroom. And so I never want to see me teach. But he went and watched this summer student of mine no teach. And that led to another nice consistent pro bono consulting assignment. And uh and Result of the whole thing was system is about $500,000 gifts that took place in such a tasteful way, you never even know what happened, but that’s something you just do recognize the opportunity and you have to stop, you know, put the thing together. You got to be creative and the head of the Development Committee, I want them there. They need to breathe and live the organization. You know, 100% of the time, it means they’ve got to have a close working relationship with the Chief development on Mr. They have to have a close relationship with the Ceo to make sure that they’re always always in

[00:30:30.54] spk_1:
line. Great, great wisdom. Yeah. And uh, you say you want the person to be persistent and fearless and you know, that all that, that all is uh, epitomized by this story you just told that’s outstanding. Thank you. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and they’ll get that voice heard in the right outlets like The Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, Fast Company Market watch many others where they have the relationships to get you heard. So what does this mean? Get your voice uh, find your voice and then get it out there. Well, defining the voice. They’ll help you craft your message. I mean, you’ve got your key points, but you want to make them cogently concise coherent. Look at that. Cogent, concise, coherent. Yeah, that’s what you want to do. So that when you’re talking to the journalists at these incredibly good outlets, You get quoted. That’s what you want. You want the quotes. I mean you know saying that you said something and then they paraphrase it. Yeah that’s pretty good to look. It’s your name, it’s your organization of course. But the quotes that’s the gold standard. Turn to will help you craft your message is you know what the message are. They’ll work with you to make it. What did I say? Cogent write, cogent, concise, coherent so that you get the quotes in these excellent outlets. So help you find your voice, they help you get that voice heard turn to communications. You know this your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s time for Tony’s take two. I’ve got a free timely webinar coming up for you planned giving in the pandemic era. It’s graciously hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. I’m grateful for that. Their gracious. I’m grateful. We’re doing this on september 30th. From 2 to 3 Eastern time. I’m going to talk about what planned giving is who your best prospects are. Where to start your program and how planned giving fits in our pandemic era and of course you got to have the all important Q. And A. That’s where the focus goes on what you’re thinking what what is on your mind. I can only channel so much of you. I need you to fill in the rest. So that’s the all important Q. And A of course plenty of time for that also. So you have to make a reservation, it’s free. But you got to reserve, you go to J. M. T like Juliet mike tango from the old Air force days. Military folks will appreciate that. Also private pilots, JMT consulting dot com then events and then expert speaker series. That’s the only category they have. I would have put me under something like middling speaker series or lackluster speaker series. But alas, they don’t have those categories there. Of course. The problem is not going to create a category just for me as well. Just stick with their default category of expert speaker series and squeeze me in there. So that’s um, that’s where, that’s where you go. JMT consulting dot com events, expert speaker series. It’s all on september 30th two to three Eastern. I hope you’ll be with me for planned giving in the pandemic era. That is Tony’s take two we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for effective fundraising with Professor Warren Macfarlane. Another another part of the part of the board is the board chair. The chair and the Ceo the chair Ceo relationship that that’s critical. I’ve I’ve seen very dysfunctional relationships where there was micromanagement and you know, too much in the details. But I’ve also seen very healthy relationships where it’s it’s it’s supportive and collegial between the board chair and the ceo talk about that relationship please.

[00:33:47.34] spk_0:
It’s the most sensitive one. You know, in the, in the organization that the ceo is that it’s first of all, it’s peculiar to nonprofits. This is not known in the for profit world. And for that, the notion of an unpaid non executive chair of the board uh working with a paid seal. Uh the first problem is people have, coming from the private sector, have trouble understanding how that system works, that it means that the two have to be in public very much. It’s a Pataca. I can remember that, you know, one board that I chair, that the uh CEO and I would fight furiously but always 10 miles or more away from corporate headquarters. But when you’re there with the board and with the stamp, the hands around each other’s shoulders of the, like the jokes were going back and forth and you made sure you couldn’t put a slim nail you in between the two of us. I mean, that relationship is just an absolutely critical kind of one. Now, what’s also interesting courses, in some cases, why the chair maybe a very much of a development uh project, that there was a wonderful book that was just written by one of my former students said, hey Jim, who is a uh investment maker in in new york, he is chairman of the University of Russia’s Sir board of trustees. And his book describes, you know, how when he was asked to do that job, he said, I just can’t do it because I’m amazing. I need Rochester’s short of money. We need somebody to really raise the money and the president just kept working on. And finally my friends, these types of books, just what is the largest gift that’s ever been given To Roger? So it was back in 1926. George Eastman gave $26 million dollars and uh, he spent some more time and money and his family said Rochester did so much for me. We’re going to do a little bit more than that. Now that’s the chairman who, I mean, he gives with his treasure, he gives his time and his block and he’s a, he’s a remarkable person. He was an orphan basically from orphanages from the time he was age seven to age 16, and one in ROTC scholarship out of the orphanage, you know, into uh, into Rochester. But the whole notion behind that in terms of how our chairman can support is really, it’s, the chairman must be philanthropically oriented, must understand the development mission, must be able to uh, work around the strengths and weaknesses, you know, of the Ceo

[00:33:55.34] spk_1:
uh, fill me in a little inside baseball on corporate boards. What what’s the role, what is the role of a board chair on a corporate board.

[00:34:22.84] spk_0:
Um, the, in the, in the ideal world, the board share is a sports chair and Ceo and you have a president and chief operating officer boy. So the board share it, Uh, it’s basically, it’s, it’s the Ceo job. Now from time to time with emergence, You may have somebody left over from emergency you need to send with, so you may make them sort of a non executive chair of the board and give them a nice office about 10 miles away from corporate headquarters and the three years work while you work your way through your retirement, earn out and so forth.

[00:35:16.74] spk_1:
Okay. So it often is the, it’s the chairman, Ceo chair chair and Ceo. Okay. All right. So going back to nonprofits, what’s your advice warrant on fixing the relationship? I mean, if I think CEOs would know if they have a dysfunctional relationship, whether it’s micromanagement or maybe the board chair is too hands off. Maybe he or she is not a strong leader of the board, not a consensus. What, what advice do you have for the C. E. O. S. Two improve the relationship with the

[00:36:15.53] spk_0:
board chair? Well, there, there’s several things, you know, the first one is that The length of tenure of the board share, uh, is often just 2-3 years And if you want people to rotate through that. But the critical person, this is again, is the head of the governance committee that the head of the government’s committee is one of your wisest, most senior atrocities and their job is to make sure that that relationship is working. And if it’s not working to find a way to sort of you move the thing along, it’s a it’s just it’s a terribly difficult and awkward thing and of course it’s complicated because you know, people have tremendous egos, it’s alm except that uh the people amass the well father to do these jobs, they don’t suffer from an underdeveloped of self concept. And so how you deal with their he goes uh is very tricky,

[00:36:29.43] spk_1:
right? But so what, you know, what what specifically I mean, do we have a heart to heart conversation with them and say look, you know, I think, you know, and I know, you know, this relationship is not ideal. Can we can we talk about it or you know, or is it just, I mean, I hate to leave folks just wait until the board chair’s term has ended and then, you know, we hope to do better in with their successor,

[00:38:16.52] spk_0:
their to their to their their two or three different ways. The first one is uh the question is whether it’s the board chair problem or the C. E. O. I mean, this is of course, you know, one of the problems because in fact the paid Ceo does report, you know, to the board and to the board chair. So the the power actually lies on the on the other uh side that the question there that they’re all they’re all kinds of consultants who can come and help, you know mediate these things. But when you get to that level, it’s already broken in a distaste away and the hardest problem is to try and avoided getting in it at the beginning and that has to do with how you pick the people, you know, in in, in the roles and that uh, sometimes we was in a very difficult situation from your skull were uh, the new board share uh, just almost immediately immediately started pushing things in that as he learned about the organization, uh, he came up with a strategy just wasn’t going to work for them and we had to reach in and in the most tender way, get him out. But then this is because uh, to get him out knowing he could also be a supporter of the organization. And so it was just about as complicated as you can say to get the dirty deed done, but we love you, we need to and can help you and the boys a lot of scrambling and a lot of stomach just turned around and came to a happy ending on on that part of it. But if the strategy that was would not have worked and would have actually driven the organization the bankruptcy,

[00:39:08.72] spk_1:
you have to be very, very careful about circumspect about who you put in the board leadership, you know, if even even vice chair because the presumption is that the vice chair is gonna become the chair, assuming he or she is, you know, competent. So you have to be careful there and and other board leadership positions to its it’s very important and you you you’re right, I mean you can end up with uh it’s something that really is is detrimental to the organization and you’re stuck, you know, for two or three years.

[00:39:30.42] spk_0:
Well. And you know, this is of course why it goes back to your very first question when you asked me, you know, why did I pick the governance committee to start? It’s because that’s the place where these issues get sorted out and need to be sought on the strategic way. Mhm.

[00:39:31.32] spk_1:
Yeah. Put put time into thinking about these things and planning, planning, succession planning, I presume you have a succession plan for for the ceo you know, there should be succession planning on the board as well. You know, we talked about as people leave the board, but succession,

[00:40:09.31] spk_0:
oh we know the slots that you’re needing to recruit for. I always need to have a couple of uh potential board chairs ahead of the Finance committee, one or two heads of the development committee and the job, it’s a delicate because when you who clued somebody onto the board, you often have a view as to what role they’re going to be best set. They may not, however, understand that and they may be so excited to be on the board that they want to sort of dive into some area or they have neither skill nor So it requires some discussion to sort of make it that make that work out.

[00:40:58.01] spk_1:
Yeah, I was invited to be a board member once and I I turned it down because I didn’t think the organization had really thought through what benefit I could bring to the border. You know, why I’d be a good board member. Um, it was a smaller organization and I was supporting the work. But I I didn’t I just didn’t feel that they had done their due diligence around me and you know, why they wanted me. It was just, well, you’re a supporter, you know, you’re you’re in the area. So, you know, would you like to be a board member? And

[00:41:00.97] spk_0:
I mean,

[00:41:02.86] spk_1:
time, time constraints went into it also, but I didn’t, I didn’t feel and I continued supporting the organization, but I didn’t feel they had they were really taking board membership as seriously as they should, even as a small organization.

[00:41:18.91] spk_0:
Yeah. You never know until it does man, you got mixed into all these things and it can turn so bad, so you’re just much better to not get started and getting into one that doesn’t fit

[00:41:47.81] spk_1:
right. And then, you know, the embarrassment of you have made me having to leave before your term is over and then there’s bad feelings there, and I just Yeah, so think through, you know, be careful about, be thoughtful, be circumspect about who you invite on your board,

[00:41:49.02] spk_0:
That’s

[00:41:49.65] spk_1:
two or three years can be a long time with the difficult board member or a couple of board members. Two or three years can be a long time.

[00:41:58.11] spk_0:
Yeah. And a lot of them maybe, uh, sits here so

[00:42:09.60] spk_1:
well. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a long, that’s an awful long term. Six years. I mean I’m all for, you know, maybe extending for a second term, two or three years and then, and then the second term. But

[00:43:13.60] spk_0:
I remember this battle that I lost some years ago when on sports share and that uh, this person had endowed a new athletic field for one of the universities in the area. And we needed a new athletic feeling a little bit around the edges. Often I said, uh, I need him on the board. The head of the company said one, this isn’t going to just fit this question, but I’ll make sure he sits beside me every meeting, I’ll keep him under control. Said one even got two more years left, he’ll be here afterwards and we didn’t do it. Somebody else got the gift. But I’m pretty sure it was the right one because that they, there is a culture that you have to deal with. And that’s that if you have overtly disrupted people that can, in fact, that’s just supposed to people who have good clear ideas, well reasoned that are different than yours. That’s a whole different topic. But uh, loosely cannons learning around can can cause all kinds of difficulty.

[00:43:41.60] spk_1:
I think it sounds like you were wise to uh, to take the advice of the person and not bring that member honest, but that’s a very good point. You know, warren, you’re only gonna be here for two more years, they’ve got years after that and you know, and really, how well are you going to be able to constrain them? You know, if, if these, if the person becomes obstreperous in, in a, in a board meeting, are you gonna be willing to, you know, put them back in their place publicly in front of the rest of the board and maybe there’s staff in the room at the same time and that could have been ugly. So you were wise, I

[00:43:52.60] spk_0:
didn’t feel wise this time, but the way you describe it, you’re absolutely correct.

[00:44:20.59] spk_1:
Yeah, okay, we’ve said enough about how bad it can be. Um, so hopefully you have a good board chair ceo relationship, it’s, it’s supportive, its collegial like you said, you know, you, you couldn’t drive a thin nail between the two of you in public but you have, you have things out in private and, and, and there should be a lot of communication and I think a board chair and see, you know, they should be in touch. I don’t know what’s a week or so.

[00:44:22.25] spk_0:
It takes a month, right? It takes a lot of time. Uh, the ones that I was working on recently, it just turned out that uh I was taking 40, 30 to 40 hours a week of the chair. And that means you got to make sure you have the time uh to put into that

[00:45:14.59] spk_1:
too. Yeah, and the person that you’re asking has the time. Yes. All right, so I’ve been I’ve been looking forward to talking to you about planned giving. Yeah, because you have a chapter on plant giving and foundations, and I’ve been making a living a plan giving for A good number of years, 2400 years. Uh and your plan giving donor, it sounds like uh so and you’re you’re playing giving chapter, you spend most of your time, and it’s just, you know, it’s one chapter and you make the point that playing giving could be a series of books. And indeed, I have

[00:45:21.00] spk_0:
a I

[00:46:13.88] spk_1:
Have a 400 page treatise on planned giving, you know, on my shelf that I hardly ever have to refer to, but when I do it’s comforting to know it’s there. Um so, you know, your your chapter is an overview of you talk about iras and trust, different types of trusts and uh charitable gift annuities. Um um My focusing planned giving is now, so I I I I am a startup plan giving consultant. I I initiate the kickoff launched programs. Um So my focus is mainly on Will’s because I think that’s the place to start a plan giving program. Um but again you’re doing an overview, You’re not talking about starting a plan giving program. Your your chapter gives an overview of playing giving, but I’ve still been anxious to talk to you about it, especially, you know, because you’re playing giving donor to what what do you what do you see as the role of planned giving, how critical to you is

[00:49:23.97] spk_0:
This to me? It’s uh that it’s as you pass by a certain point in your life and I don’t know whether it’s 60 or 65 uh that the actuarial tables begin to sort of uh well differently. And that uh somebody uh is looking at once to make a meaningful gift and they may be worried about, you know, the cash flow and something like a channel remainder trust or channel annuity is that the donor life, the fact they’re able to give a big number And they in fact, no, they’re going to live for another 40 years. And so it’s a big deal that you and the other side, you know, the end is much closer than the dome. So it’s a very happy kind of situation. Uh And what it really does is that people who are going to worry about end of life expenses are able to use this set vehicles and there are all kinds of tax incentives. I mean the one I personally caught my attention was the I. R. A. I’ve spent 30 years of my life you know building that up at every step along the way for retirement income. And that somebody had developed wants to sit down and said that you do understand you know what the tax implication is when you die of the I. R. A. And by the time you look at he said this is actually free money because you’re not taking very much away from your kids and you’re giving a lot more you know to the charity. And so those discussions can be just enormously beneficial and it’s uh but you bring it up with sort of the right point in a person’s Your life at Harvard. We never heard about a charitable annuity at a reunion before the 45th reunion. And by the time becoming the 60th that’s all you’re hearing about these vehicles. So that that that that there’s a time and a place for it. And it also of course comes back to our earlier discussion of the of the uh the annual fund giver. The trustee who becomes a trustee emeritus contributes to a capital campaign. And then plan giving comes right on. And as you get into the habit of giving through the other things you become more receptive, You know, nor philanthropic about these later on in your life kinds of up to us. And that what you need there is you need people who are really specialists like yourself because there are 1000 ways you can put the thing together. And I picked just about six or seven or what are the most common ones to, to make them the point. But those are the ones which, uh, your hospitals and museums and college so forth. You tend, you tend to use.

[00:50:28.46] spk_1:
Yeah. And I see it as essential to the stewardship of donors. You know, you want that lifetime relationship. It’s, it’s stewardship over a long period. But in the, in that period there are, there’s cultivation and solicitation, you know, for the next gift. So as your stewarding over a lifetime, you’re cultivating and soliciting for different, different phases, you know, the annual, the, the major, the capital, the, and, and, uh, ultimately the planned gift. Um, so it’s, uh, so I’m interested in, you know, you as a, as, because I worked with a lot of plans giving donors. Um, I’ve worked with thousands through the years. Uh, but you know, I don’t get to have the conversation with them that I’m, you know, on the same level having with use. I mean, so I, I have to sort of suss things out a little bit. Uh, it sounds like for you, the tax advantages of, of the Ira, we’re appealing

[00:50:29.99] spk_0:
Well, but

[00:50:31.61] spk_1:
that tax advantage was moving for

[00:50:33.94] spk_0:
you when I looked at, I said, this is, this is a very inefficient way to distribute the IRA and my kids, I can,

[00:50:42.21] spk_1:
they’ll be taxed on.

[00:51:25.56] spk_0:
Exactly. And so therefore this is money that I can get much more leverage. And by giving out to the outside so that I’ve been really hammering at people that for the last uh, five or six years. Then you come back to the notions of, uh, where you want to make a really significant, you know, impact. And this is where charitable remainder trust uh, can be really helpful so that you want to sort of make a half million dollars million dollar gift. But you have to worry about keeping the food on the table through your declining years. And there, Oh, that uh, that you put the money inside for that trust. And it takes care of the income to your life or your life and your spouse’s life. But there’s a big number that goes to the, uh, the museum of the university of what? Not at the end. And then of course it becomes particularly interesting is still Harvard uh, does it very nicely, is that you can designate up to 49% of it to some other organization. And

[00:51:57.59] spk_1:
right, well, Harvard, Harvard is an outlier there because they have the Harvard Management

[00:52:00.88] spk_0:
corporation. But what that does

[00:52:11.85] spk_1:
just, that was just for your trust, most, most nonprofits can’t do that. And, you know, the trusteeship ends up being with the, with a Fidelity or Schwab or, you know, some, some financial institution.

[00:52:16.41] spk_0:
But what it does is it, uh, in that case it allows organizations that don’t have very sophisticated plan dealing. And you really worry about the investment advisors, they’re using uh you can sort of put that underneath the same, I’m broad and the fidelity to do the same thing.

[00:53:01.85] spk_1:
Your larger point that one remainder trust can help multiple charities. And yeah, I know you make the point in the book that Harvard Management Corporation allows that. So as long as I guess, I guess as long as 51% goes to Harvard 9% can go to other charities. Uh, But if it’s an outside manager and some some financial institution manager acting as trustee, then uh oh there is unlimited ways you can divide the, but then the lots and lots of charities from one single trust

[00:53:25.85] spk_0:
as somebody who makes a living designing these things. Of course, your greatest single friend of this is the U. S. Congress because the laws change. And just as soon as you have finally tuned strategy in one place, you’ll go off change and then you have to come back and you re think about it. So it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a continual ideally, once you getting along you can’t just do it right. And it’s done.

[00:53:54.05] spk_1:
Yeah. But this the significant tax code changes only come like every 15, 20 years or so. Yeah. So you’re you’ll go through a couple in a career. Uh, But again and again, you know, my work is mostly at the at the formation of planned giving level. I mean I’ve I’ve done $25 million dollar lead trusts and I’ve done multiple remainder trusts and hundreds of gift annuities, maybe thousands. I don’t know hundreds at least. Um, but my work is mostly at the formation stage, getting folks getting nonprofits set up with

[00:54:10.24] spk_0:
just how to do

[00:54:35.44] spk_1:
it. Let’s start asking with because let’s start asking for bequests simple gifts by will. Let’s start there. That’s the foundation. Uh, I believe of of any planned giving program is, is just a simple gifts by will. Um, and then in years later, you know, you may graduate to the more sophisticated gifts depending on the size of your organization. You might not, you might just, you might just be content with doing requests indefinitely and you’ll capture most of the plane gifts anyway because that they’re always the

[00:55:03.44] spk_0:
the most common comment is powerful. The will is, is the first place. And then of course, uh, way way back when that I can that I remember somebody, uh, one of, one of my ancestors uh, basically uh, was going to give a gift of, Of a, of a certain percentage of first stage and the other as you know, I don’t want to do it that way. You want to make sure that uh actually gets a specific money. And so instead of the percentage putting what you thought was a huge number, which was actually 1/10 of what we had it gone the other way. So you have to have all sorts of funny kind of twisted thinking that you have to sort of unravel that process.

[00:55:59.74] spk_1:
You, you flush that story out in the book. You tell that one in a little more detail in the book. So folks got to get the book. Um, warren, let’s, let’s leave folks with just, You know, you’ve got these 40 years of experience, multiple, multiple board memberships, board chairmanships. You’re a donor in your own right through times, decades and decades. Leave folks with some, some fundraising wisdom, please.

[00:58:02.02] spk_0:
I think that uh, philanthropy is fundamentally a very satisfying activity that basically you’re helping to move social causes along along that I next, of course, is the whole power of the nonprofit sector is that I have there there’s almost a spiritual aspect uh, built to it. I, I enjoyed my corporate boards. We make changes things that nature new parts or what, but there’s something different. There’s something different in the nonprofit and when you’re trying to sort of move society along in some ways that you think are, are important and uh, that what you have to learn is that all you have to educate people on the opportunities. Uh, that the book was originally with basically the nutritious e right after a lot of them are asked to be trying to be, the first thing they say is do you have to ask people for money because I’m not good at it. And the answer is yes. You are going to have to ask for it and we can train you how to ask for it. And it starts by, you’re basically making a major commitment because that gives you the passion and so forth to move the cause forward. But it’s uh, it’s when the four organizations I’m involved with now, he’s one of them are ones that I actually believe in the, in the mission in a deep internalized, you know, real kind of of way. And if I didn’t, I’d have, I’d have gotten involved in other things. Just mean, you can’t pick up new choices, a lot of ways that some of the smaller things I do, uh, they’re very interesting, uh, the kinds of ones that, uh, core values, but it’s, it’s an, it’s an opportunity, you know, to, to move the world forward. And that’s that’s that’s that, that that’s what why people give their time in the, in the treasure.

[00:58:10.32] spk_1:
Thank you so much. Warren fre Mcfarland, he’s a Professor emeritus at Harvard Business School. The book is effective fundraising, the trustees role and beyond. Published by Wiley Warren, thank you very much for sharing.

[00:58:22.23] spk_0:
It’s great with just terrific. Thank you so

[00:58:42.82] spk_1:
much. My pleasure if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Creative producer is

[00:58:43.78] spk_2:
Clan Meyerhoff

[00:58:44.70] spk_1:
shows. Social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy

[00:58:52.92] spk_2:
and this music is by scott stein. Yeah, thank you for that information, scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%

[00:59:12.72] spk_1:
Go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm.

Nonprofit Radio for September 6, 2021: Turn Followers Into Donors

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Adora Drake: Turn Followers Into Donors

Adora Drake has a strategy for converting your social media followers into donors. Let’s hear what it’s all about. Her digital marketing company and coaching practice is Adora Drake Marketing.

 

 

 

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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit

[00:01:43.74] spk_0:
Ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of Kaif Asus if you twisted me around the idea that you missed this week’s show turn followers into donors. Adora drake has a strategy for converting your social media followers into donors. Let’s hear what it’s all about. tony state to planned giving in the pandemic era. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s my pleasure to welcome for the first time Adora drake to nonprofit radio She is a digital marketing strategist coach and consultant. She helps nonprofits feel inspired to take action, gain clarity in their marketing strategy and learn how to convert their followers into raving fans who want to be part of their mission with her unique coaching programs. Her company is at Adora drake marketing dot com and she’s at Adora drake on instagram. Adora drake. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:46.94] spk_1:
Hi, so happy to be here.

[00:01:52.94] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to have you Glad you are. Yeah, well where are you from? Where you zooming in from.

[00:02:00.54] spk_1:
So I am actually born and raised here in Dallas. We’re just unusual now because there’s so many different people here in texas but I am actually Born and raised native here in Dallas Okay right If you

[00:02:08.69] spk_0:
Live there more than four years, you’re a

[00:02:10.09] spk_3:
native. You’re

[00:02:14.23] spk_0:
a bona fide. Your bona fide.

[00:02:15.65] spk_1:
Yes. Like generation Texan here. Okay.

[00:02:19.93] spk_0:
I got a lot going on in texas now.

[00:02:22.18] spk_1:
Oh, tell me about it. Academic

[00:02:23.95] spk_0:
wise. Legal wise now, just a Russian abortion wise just

[00:02:28.49] spk_1:
today. Oh my goodness. Right. I’m like, wow, this is a big melting pot of stuff. Yeah,

[00:02:34.05] spk_0:
I don’t do politics on nonprofit radio We can do that off line, but good

[00:02:40.13] spk_1:
lot going. You’re

[00:02:53.74] spk_0:
in the news texas is in the news. It’s not to me, it’s not all good. I’ll leave it there. All right. Um, so you have a way of helping our listeners turn there social media followers into donors. Isn’t

[00:02:55.79] spk_1:
that right? That’s correct. That’s correct. I hope it’s correct for that. Yes,

[00:03:00.49] spk_0:
I hope it’s correct because otherwise we’re done.

[00:03:02.81] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:03:04.57] spk_1:
absolutely correct. tony

[00:03:05.71] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:03:07.45] spk_0:
I got one thing. Right, so far.

[00:03:08.65] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:03:13.74] spk_0:
You call this your scale method. Okay. What, why don’t you outline the elements of scale and then we have plenty of time to go into each, each step

[00:03:22.34] spk_1:
separate, awesome, awesome. So scale stands for social media content, audience lead an execution and like you said, we’ll go into each part of that scale method and how you can use that skill method.

[00:03:36.94] spk_0:
Okay. And you’ve obviously seen success with this with nonprofits that you work

[00:04:00.24] spk_1:
with. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I work with a small nonprofits all the way to midsize nonprofits and I’ve used a scale method on them. The process is very simple to follow. Um, as long as you really stick to that scale method, I know you’re gonna see some, some really good results from getting people from your social media and building that are all the way into getting people to donate, getting those funds.

[00:04:03.46] spk_0:
Okay. Well small and mid sized shops. Those are our listeners. Yeah.

[00:04:07.91] spk_1:
So

[00:04:11.74] spk_0:
Perfect. All right. So, um, social media, right For us. Okay. What do you have your principles here? What do you like to see done here?

[00:05:00.74] spk_1:
So one of the things that I know a lot of non profits and even for profits getting mixed up is they feel like they need to be everywhere. And that’s not always the case. So the first thing you want to make for sure is that you really hone down on that persona and your target of who do you want to have, um, come into your, your nonprofit or follow your nonprofit and who is that potential donor look like? Because that’s going to be really important when it comes to choosing the right social media platform. Each social media platform has their own features. Um, they attract different types of audiences. And so it’s important if you don’t know who that persona is, you might pick the wrong one and focus your efforts on the wrong one. So number one is to really hone in on your target, Once you figure that out and you choose a social media platform, that’s when the fun begins because now, you know, that’s where my audience is and this is where I can start putting out that content.

[00:05:09.64] spk_0:
Okay, okay, before we get to the content. So you want folks to look ahead to what the future donor is going to look like so that they’re on the right social networks?

[00:05:39.84] spk_1:
Yes. You have to know exactly who you want to attract. And for those of you who have already, you guys already have an organization going, you need to just look at the people who have already actively been involved with you, like who are the people who come to your events, who are the people who register uh, for your webinars or whatever your fundraising events are. Look at those people and see where would they particularly be on social media, That’s where you want to start attracting people who are already interested in your organization and picking more people, just like those people.

[00:05:48.64] spk_0:
Okay. Right, Right. Makes sense. All right. So, um, you know, be a little specific about some of the, some of the platforms, like, you know why my, why might you choose instagram over twitter for instance?

[00:07:24.74] spk_1:
Well, they’re completely different. If you were gonna go if you’re more visual, you really need to show your audience, you know, some of the projects that you guys are working on, you want to make sure that you have really good chris pictures and things like that, that’s really where you want to go to something like an instagram or Pinterest um those are really like I said really visual, these are, people are gonna be scrolling really quickly and often before they see your caption or before they see anything else they see this huge picture of something you’ve posted and so it’s really important that you get that right. Um if you are going to be showing some really visual type of content now, if you’re going to be sharing more like informational content, then you might want to lean towards something like twitter, twitter is, has its own legal system of people who are interested in information, they’re sharing information, they want to follow information they want to like, and they often click off of twitter and go to your website. Often more often they would on instagram and so if you are an organization there that’s trying to get an event for instance, out there to your audience, twitter might be a better, a better platform for you. So you just need to look at the different features and then get an idea of where can I find my target audience and how can I better create content for them? What your video is a big thing now, you know, video, especially on the other platforms are trying to adopt more videos, just like youtube, but youtube is the king of video um but also the other platforms you can do short video. So if you teach something or show something, you know, for two or three minutes posted on instagram are posted on twitter. That’s another way to show how to get in front of the right people on those platforms.

[00:07:47.74] spk_0:
You haven’t mentioned facebook now, there’s a lot of disenchantment with facebook as organic reach has plummeted. They just want your dollars to expand your reach. What’s your, what’s your thinking on facebook?

[00:08:23.54] spk_1:
So when, when people think of facebook, they do think of facebook advertising because it is probably have the best advertising if you are going to start. But that it is really good for organic as well. There are a lot of different groups. So if you know for sure that your audience is interested in, let’s just say feeding the needy or something like that, it might be really good for you to create a group specifically around that because you can later use that group, uh, to give out your information or get them on your email list. And so there are some ways that you can organically benefit from being on something like facebook.

[00:08:24.92] spk_0:
So you’re, you’re saying better maybe on facebook to create a group devoted to your cause versus versus using your nonprofit page to put content out. Is that what you’re saying.

[00:09:46.04] spk_1:
Yeah, and the reason why you would want to do this is because people don’t like to feel like they’re being sold to it. I don’t want to feel like, you know, you guys are just gonna want to follow me because I’m, you know, I’m gonna give you funds, you want to really build a relationship and build interest around your mission. And so if you are, we’ll just use the homeless shelter. For instance, if you are, your mission is to serve the hungry or serve the needy, let’s say you make a group about serving your community and serving the needy. You get all these different people coming in, they’re really interested in this topic there. They serve their community. They’re gonna be more likely to want to come off of that platform or want to donate or want to come to your events because they are already showing interest from being inside of this group. Now, the difference between a group in a page, your page is specifically for your particular organization. So if you want to show something that you guys are particularly doing that week or you want to share your employees are doing keeping them in the note, that’s one thing. But that group is going to really keep people engaged because they’re already interested in this topic and you’re giving out information and they’re giving information and now you have a relationship. So when you get on social media is about building relationships, that’s, that’s where that social peace comes in and so you want to make sure that when you’re on there, that you’re building a relationship that way, when you ask for funds down the line, they’ve been knowing you, they they’ve been following you all this time. They’ve been engaging with you. They know for sure that you guys what you guys do and how you guys help.

[00:10:06.44] spk_0:
And are you saying that reaches organic reach, non paid is easier to achieve through a group than it is through a nonprofit page?

[00:10:15.64] spk_1:
Yes, absolutely. That’s because the reaches its a lot better when it comes to facebook. Um, you know, the reaches a lot better.

[00:10:22.60] spk_0:
Yeah. In the group

[00:10:24.11] spk_1:
in the Exactly. Exactly. And it’s a lot easier to give people, you know, into your group. And so once you’ve got people into your group, it’s yours. It’s your group. You can start collecting emails, you can start sending out, you know, particular information and of course they can go and like your business page, but it’s not it’s not the same as actually engaging in coming in and sharing videos and things like that inside of a group. It’s a little bit more personal.

[00:10:47.04] spk_0:
Okay. All right. So that that’s advice I hadn’t heard before that you’re, you’re more likely to get better reach with a with a group than with a page.

[00:10:55.46] spk_1:
Okay.

[00:11:03.04] spk_0:
Okay. Um, All right. So then the content that that belongs in whatever it is, there’s facebook group or instagram or you know, whatever platform you’re choosing, what how do you select the right content.

[00:11:29.34] spk_1:
So your content should be based completely off of the interest, which is usually your, you start with the messaging of your organization. People come and they follow you because they believe in your mission. They believe in what you guys have to offer and then you want to create content around that. So don’t switch and do something. If you’re talking about homeless, don’t switch and talk about something about the earth or something like that, you want to make sure you’re Strictly focusing on your mission. Then you want to use that 8020 rule, it should be 80% information, 80% sharing about your events and things like that. Then only 20% asking for donations and money. So very little bit of actual fundraising and more giving and actually engaging with people.

[00:12:59.24] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and get that voice heard in all the right places. So many of the places that you’ve heard of, like the Wall Street Journal, the new york times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, fast Company and market watch. Many others you’ve heard me recite through the weeks to help you find your voice and you’ll get your voice heard. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O now back to turn followers into donors. I like to empower folks within the nonprofit to um, create content on their own. Yeah, It’s not all just from the fundraisers or the marketing, communications design people, but you know, folks who are actually doing the program work. Maybe there shooting short videos or you know, etcetera, folks on the ground doing the work. What, how do you feel about that? You know, empowering folks on the, on the ground floor, uh, to create their own content.

[00:13:41.24] spk_1:
I totally agree with that tony because that’s where the real content comes. Like when you can look on there, let’s just use instagram. I’m scrolling, I’m looking and I see a picture of people actually handing out bags of food or they’re handing out there at the hospitals and helping people. And I’m seeing people on the ground doing things. Then I know that that organization is serious, right? I know that they’re actually out there on the ground and they’re not just some huge corporate where I don’t know where my money is going. So I think that that is a good idea to always have like you said, people on the ground actually making their own content and they actually can actually get to know your audience to. So when the data comes up, you know, you can actually see what are people clicking on and what are they commenting on? What are they saying And what type of things are they, are they liking? You know, so these are all going to help you down the line as you continue to great continent to really see by looking at your analytics.

[00:13:59.94] spk_0:
Right, okay, excellent point. I wanted to ask about analytics. The analytics vary. You know? Uh some some sites will give you more, you know, a play of some platforms. I should say like a platform like linkedin. Uh you know it gives you very little you might you might not be on you might not be on linkedin for for you know volunteer and donor relationships. But that’s just one that I’m most familiar with because I spent a lot of time there. So I know that they are particularly uh

[00:14:23.69] spk_1:
yeah I think about the algorithm.

[00:14:35.14] spk_0:
I mean about the uh the analytics unless you know you start paying for the pro the upgraded um upgraded packages but you know so you’re kind of at the mercy what platforms or what what networks do you see? You know are more generous with uh with the analytics versus less.

[00:14:45.14] spk_1:
Well let’s just let’s just start with what analytics you should be looking for. So one of the things that you want to look for is you know, not only just the followers but like how many lives you are getting? How many impressions you’re making? So that means that your content is actually being seen

[00:14:59.13] spk_0:
the real you want really metric. Yeah, vanity metrics. Like how many I’m not talking about

[00:15:08.74] spk_1:
that shallow. Right. And of course followers. That’s good to have that because you’ll see you know how many people actually following you

[00:15:12.87] spk_0:
wanted, you wanted trending in the right place. But that’s not the ultimate measure exactly clicks and shares and uh shares and comments etcetera. Much more valuable.

[00:16:10.84] spk_1:
Way valuable because it’s going to help you, even when you decide to run ads down the line, it’s going to help you decide, you know, which type of people actually click who, who is sharing, who’s coming to my website. So these are all in a little that you can look and use and then you can see like especially on instagram and facebook, they’ve got their demographics down to a science. You can actually start building demographics around that. So like I said, it’s going to help you down the line as you try to run ads. You know, what age clicks, what’s the gender? What are they most interested in? What other similar pages do they follow? These type of analytics that are going to help you really target that that person over and over and over again. So yeah, looking at those analytics is going to be key. The best. Like I said, the platforms right now that are really good at analytics or are the big three really twitter facebook instagram if you are on on Youtube, they have awesome analytics as well. I’ll tell you how many views you have, How many people have like your videos, how many people share your videos. So these are things that you want to see and collect that data and see like, you know, how can I find more people that I want to attract? How can I find these donors online?

[00:16:27.44] spk_0:
But Youtube doesn’t give you the demographics though, does it? Of of people who have been watching viewing.

[00:16:32.52] spk_1:
It

[00:16:49.24] spk_0:
does give you give you a job and age location. Okay. You too does Okay. Good. Alright. Alright. Um All right. Um So you’re I don’t want to go through these two quick, but let’s say, all right, maybe we’ll end up coming back because you got a lackluster host, you know? So sometimes times I think of things later on,

[00:16:53.31] spk_1:
All

[00:16:54.42] spk_0:
right, we’ll cut we may end up coming back, all right, but we’ll get through. Okay, So a is your audience go ahead? What’s what’s your what’s your advice around audience?

[00:18:36.74] spk_1:
Audience is mainly finding those people who are going to want to continue to follow you, gonna follow you off of the platform. And so one of the main things like I said is you’re gonna want to look for that persona and then you want to try to mimic that persona over and over again. Now, people are looking at vanity measures like, okay, well, I have a lot of followers, but there are specific followers that never leave you. They’re gonna always continue to follow and be there. And so when you go in on these platforms and you’re looking for these people and you want to make sure that you have that one persona down, and you go to these different profiles on there and you follow them and you engage with their content. And so a lot of people actually miss that they post things and then they leave or they posted and they maybe answer one of their comments on theirs, but they never go back to someone else’s or engaged with their posts. And so that’s a huge part of social media. Another thing, another thing with audiences being found, right, So you’ve got this great profile, how do you get found? Almost all of the platforms use hashtags. And so these hashtags are really important there, the element that are gonna help you be discovered by new people. And so it’s very important that you at least research 15 main hashtag um that you guys can rotate out so that you guys will be found if someone searches for that particular hashtag. So, for instance, hashtag social change. For instance, if you use that in your post, when someone types in social change, your post will be in that large list of uh directory where people can actually click that photo and see where is it coming from, that will lead them back to your profile. So, these are all things that you want to make sure that you have in order to build your audience.

[00:18:38.48] spk_0:
Okay. Right. So you want to you want us following folks who are maybe influencers that are following us. Be generous. Be generous with sharing their content, not just engaging with them around your own content.

[00:19:06.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And even if you’re not sharing your your on their profile, you’re asking them questions, you know, what do they do or what, why do they like, x, y, z, you’re just having a really good conversation with them and most like, I don’t want to come to your profile and see what you guys have to offer, and that’s how you get a true follower that I want to engage with, you, not just somebody who will be going in two hours. And so it’s really important that you engage with these people and build relationships.

[00:19:18.14] spk_0:
Okay, so the relationship building and the use of the right hashtags,

[00:19:19.88] spk_1:
that’s how you get discovered related

[00:19:25.14] spk_0:
to your work, should be, should you be creating your own hashtags or better to leverage off hashtags that are already existing, but others have already you, I mean there’s maybe hundreds of thousands of people already using an established hashtag, so it’s better to go that way or better to create your own and try to build momentum there.

[00:19:56.34] spk_1:
You definitely those 50 hashtag that I’m talking about, you do want to do a little bit of both, but mainly you want to use the ones that are already already being used because people are actively using them, they can actively find you now, once you build a bigger audience, of course you can use your own hashtag then you can tell your audience, hey, my hashtag is hashtag fedora and they’ll know to use that hashtag then. But when you are just starting and you’re just getting your marketing up, you want to use hashtag that are already being searched and already being used that way people can come to your profile and that’s when we’re, those impressions come in that we were talking about earlier, you get more impressions?

[00:20:19.49] spk_0:
Yeah, okay, okay, better to start with the, with the established,

[00:20:23.74] spk_1:
definitely. Yeah. So that you can get found. Yeah.

[00:20:28.24] spk_0:
All right, your l you’re always lead. Right, yep,

[00:21:37.74] spk_1:
yep. So that part in between the audience and the lead is super important. So it is the information that you give your audience that’s going to lead them on into your email list. It’s important to have an email list which a lot of non trump is either have an email list and they don’t use it or they don’t have an email this at all. I just feel like it’s not important, but you have to be actively building an email list because these are your particular raving fans that are going to continue to follow you even off of the social media platform, even though we know social social media is not going to disappear. Um you just want to make sure that you have your own particular people that you can consistently talk to, that you can consistently share with and so that between the a and the ill you want to have uh an opportunity to give them information in exchange for their email. Now, this can be a video, this can be a live event registration. This can be um, a pdf just giving them some really cool information about what you guys are doing or why it’s important to care about your mission. Like something of value that they can give you that valuable email because that email is going to help you down the line. That way, if you don’t, if they don’t see your post that day, at least they can check their emails now because they have you have them on the list

[00:21:48.84] spk_0:
I’ve seen or is that I think put up too much of a, of a barrier when they’re asking for that email and I’ll ask, you know, for maybe first name, last name. I’ve seen phone number.

[00:21:59.67] spk_3:
You know, this

[00:22:00.87] spk_0:
is all information. That’s very nice to have because you can write the first name and last name and phone number. You can probably research the person. But I think I think the, I think you’re losing more people because people don’t expect, you know, I don’t have to give up don’t give up my phone number and my address.

[00:22:15.72] spk_1:
Yeah. And you shouldn’t have to, you should get your white paper

[00:22:19.62] spk_0:
on on your work, you know,

[00:22:21.04] spk_1:
so Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Asking for that type of information like your your email is very valuable to you anyway. Right. Because we don’t give our emails to everybody. We dont want spam, we don’t want people on our inbox. So when we decided to give our emails out, that’s already a big deal for us. And so it’s really important. Like you said to simplify that should just be a name and email. Nothing crazy and it should just be in exchange for whatever that value is really quickly. So we quickly get the information we need and then later on down the line if you need the name and address and all those other things, it’s because I registered for something, I registered for an event or I registered to come out and do something with you. But that’s later down the line and I know you

[00:22:59.94] spk_0:
like, like I’m happy to give email and first name.

[00:23:03.54] spk_1:
That’s perfect way

[00:23:14.94] spk_0:
this organization, you know, you can personalize my email you, my first name. You know, I might give up last name or I might just make up a last name but it gets beyond that when you get on

[00:23:16.96] spk_3:
that phone

[00:23:18.06] spk_0:
number, you

[00:23:29.64] spk_1:
know, I click away. It’s too much. It’s too much and you don’t even as a, you know, when you’re marketing, you don’t need that number. Most people don’t do calls like that anyway. I like I said ask for that down the line. If you know, you’re gonna need that. Um, you can ask for that during someone’s registration or something. But they’ve already expressed interest to you. They know you they’ve been following your content. They opened the emails, right? And so then, you know, okay, they’re comfortable with us. They can give us their phone number at that point.

[00:23:50.34] spk_0:
All right. Or if you want to do a text campaign, you can ask, you know, you want to opt in, you’ve been

[00:23:52.51] spk_1:
out of the option right on our email, do that the first one though, the first time you get them on there and don’t do that the first

[00:23:58.25] spk_0:
time it’s too much right.

[00:23:59.46] spk_1:
You would scare him off.

[00:24:01.66] spk_0:
They’ve been on the mailing list for a while and you know, we’re

[00:24:03.97] spk_1:
gonna that’s fine. That’s fine. You

[00:24:13.14] spk_0:
know what we’re gonna do a SmS campaign. So, you know, if you’d like to opt in, you know, here’s the place to give us your number or reply with or something. You know, exactly.

[00:24:18.56] spk_1:
You should always be simple as possible

[00:24:20.79] spk_0:
after you’ve already got some goodwill. I feel like

[00:24:55.74] spk_1:
Exactly. And since we’re talking about that tony we can talk about some of the metrics that you should look for in your email is especially like once you get them on their like, what do you do with them? And I know a lot of nonprofits get stuck there. So one of the things that you want to make for sure is that you’re consistent with your email. So don’t just take the email and they never hear from you ever again. Don’t make that mistake because oftentimes when we do that and let’s say event comes up three or four months down the line and we’re wondering why no one registered or nobody opened our emails. We have really low email rates. It’s because you’ve let them cold. Okay. So you want to be for sure that you consistently talking to your list and you’re consistently giving them information so you can still use the 80 20 rule. And I was telling you earlier,

[00:27:44.84] spk_0:
it’s time for a break, send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag sending blue is priced for you, sending blue price for you, price for nonprofits, it’s an easy to use marketing platform walking you through the steps of building a campaign to try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving in the pandemic era. That’s a webinar that I’ll be delivering graciously hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. It’s on Thursday September 30, 2:00 EST, naturally I’m gonna weave in my stand up comedy, keep this light and entertaining uh as well as informative, informative is important. We don’t miss the informative, but we’ll talk about it. But I will talk about what planned giving is, who your best prospects are, where you get started and how planned giving fits. In our pandemic era. You can go to J. M. T. Consulting dot com, click events and then click experts speaker series. They have a bunch of experts and me. But that’s how you make your reservation. JMT consulting dot com events and then expert speaker series. Or if you prefer, you could go to JMT consulting dot com slash events slash planned hyphen giving hyphen in hyphen the hyphen pandemic hyphen era hyphen with hyphen tony hyphen martignetti I I presume you could also just search JMT consulting tony-martignetti that might work also. But you choose your method, no judgments here is a judgment free zone. You choose how you want to make your reservation, it’s yours, it’s yours. I just hope you will. I hope you’ll be with me with me and jmT consulting thursday september 30th two o’clock eastern. That Is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for turn followers into donors with adora drake

[00:28:34.04] spk_1:
and some of the main ways to get that really high open rate. It starts with the subject line. So the subject line should go straight to the point. It should be really quick and grab the intention of your reader and then once they click on that uh that email, the content should be helpful. It should be informative and it should quickly let them know. You know why they should keep reading. So that’s a little bit copyrighting their, uh, when you’re thinking about that. But if you have a newsletter, it’s a great place to put, you know, what are you guys coming up with? Why? Why should we care to be on your list? You know, especially when someone is a brand new person on the list. I like to create something that caught a welcome series. So I just kind of welcome them in. You know, introduce them. Let them know what the mission is, what we like to see in the future and things like that and kind of really get them into the organization and get them excited for being there. And as well as exchanging for some value. How

[00:28:44.27] spk_0:
long is that welcome series?

[00:28:46.44] spk_1:
It varies. Um, I usually have a minimum of seven emails. Um, and it’s just going to walk them through the entire first week that they’re on the list. And then after that you, you can go to just like once a week or something like that, but you want to make sure that you’re consistent at least once a week minimum,

[00:29:02.54] spk_0:
but initially you’re doing one a day, seven days. Yeah. People don’t object to that.

[00:29:25.74] spk_1:
No. And one of the things that I get asked all the time what they unsubscribe. Fedora if they unsubscribe, but you have to think of it this way. If they unsubscribe, then they’re not supposed to be there. Um, they’re not one of the people that are going to eventually donate to you. They’re not gonna want to follow. You know, you don’t saying so you’re kind of just losing deadweight. Kind of hate to say it that way, but it’s kind of dead weight and so you want to make sure that your, your list is lean. Um, they’re actually wanting to be there. They’re actually gonna open those emails because those are the people that are gonna donate or volunteer your time later down the line.

[00:29:40.52] spk_0:
That’s also going to help you with your email service provider.

[00:29:43.94] spk_1:
Yeah. Safety cost using uh,

[00:29:47.55] spk_0:
if you’re using mail chimp or constant contact or something. I mean if you have a huge list, but it’s un engaged. That that hurts, that hurts you. And they

[00:29:55.92] spk_1:
might, it does or

[00:29:58.28] spk_0:
your your email service provider or the recipients might end up might put you in spam even though the person asked for your email, but you have a big fat bloated un engaged list versus having to say you’re saying having a lien list it is engaged. That’s more likely to end up in an inbox than a junk box.

[00:30:16.22] spk_1:
Exactly. And that’s exactly what the goal is, especially when you’re creating an email list is to make sure that these people actually want to be there because these are your fans, you’re gonna go to later down the line when you do ask for donations. They already know you and they’re warm already. So these are warm leads

[00:30:30.24] spk_0:
and listeners, we’ve had guests on this. So you know, if you want to just search, go to tony-martignetti dot com and search email delivery ability, I’ve had shows on going into depth what a door and I’m talking about right now about the algorithms that companies you pay are using against. You have a big fat bloated and engaged list.

[00:30:52.99] spk_1:
So true. It does

[00:30:56.23] spk_0:
deliver ability. So you can hear shows specifically on that topic and how to avoid it. Um, we’re just touching on it now, but it is important your own companies that you’re paying could be hurting you.

[00:31:14.94] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ve also created a pdf just for you guys. If you guys want to learn the top five emails that I use on my email list of my clients list, you guys can go ahead and download that to uh, that’s gonna be in my website. Adora drake marketing dash non profit radio So you guys can go get

[00:31:24.97] spk_0:
that. All right. So, uh if this, if this podcast doesn’t return,

[00:31:30.72] spk_3:
you

[00:31:32.01] spk_0:
got some land, she’s got a landing page for us

[00:31:34.33] spk_1:
uh podcast. You guys are

[00:31:36.85] spk_0:
going to hear from the door drake again. This is gonna be the last time.

[00:31:39.34] spk_1:
Oh no,

[00:31:40.42] spk_3:
not Okay.

[00:31:41.73] spk_1:
No, I mean I hope not.

[00:31:42.99] spk_0:
But you set upon landing page you got metrics against us.

[00:31:45.70] spk_1:
Matrix. Matrix. Yes, that’s right.

[00:31:48.46] spk_0:
What did you say metrics what

[00:31:50.07] spk_1:
always have metrics. That’s right.

[00:31:51.73] spk_0:
Okay. Like you like the metrics maven. Okay.

[00:31:54.72] spk_1:
I like that. You know, I

[00:31:57.96] spk_0:
love alliteration. You can use Metro. Alright, so Adora drake marketing dot com. Hyphen dash dash dash hyphen non profit radio all one word. non profit

[00:32:10.67] spk_1:
All one Word. Yes. No spaces.

[00:32:12.74] spk_0:
Okay. And that’s where we’ll get your top five email. What subjects?

[00:32:26.74] spk_1:
It’s going to be a top five types of emails. So I’m going to tell you the types of emails that some of them was that series that we were talking about. I’ll tell you the types of emails that you can send out to your list. Keep them engaged but really to keep them engaged and wanting to donate at some point.

[00:32:30.79] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. And I just want to make something very, very clear. So when you’re welcoming someone to the list, they’ve they’ve taken your content, whatever it is, video or etcetera, whatever white paper etcetera. Uh, they’re new to your list. So you you send an email each day for the next week.

[00:32:49.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Now this is this is not hard as you guys think. It’s not me going on there every day typing up an email and this is something that you can set up an auto response. You can schedule this out. Right.

[00:33:01.43] spk_0:
I’m just making sure that you don’t find that? That’s too much in the beginning.

[00:33:33.04] spk_1:
No. And I don’t want you guys to be scared in thinking that even if you do something one a day that is too scary. I mean if anything it’s like having a conversation with a friend every day or talking to your mom every day. Right. She wouldn’t get tired of you. So why would someone who’s who’s following you and want to be a part of your mission? They wouldn’t get tired of you either. They just want to know more and more to And so the more you show up, it’s actually the opposite, the more you have people wanting to be there. So people who drop off, they were going to drop off at some point anyway because they weren’t really your target. And so I don’t want you guys worried about what they keep unsubscribing everyday. Well, that means you need to continue to keep growing your list with real people.

[00:33:48.94] spk_0:
Right. Right. Keeping that that lean but engaged list. Okay, Okay. And then your advice is at least once a week after that first week, minimum

[00:33:49.81] spk_1:
minimum, at least minimum. Yes. At

[00:33:52.68] spk_0:
least you said minimum. Yeah,

[00:33:53.90] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah,

[00:33:56.67] spk_3:
I

[00:33:57.79] spk_1:
don’t know what I’m talking about. You got

[00:33:59.46] spk_3:
it at

[00:34:00.29] spk_0:
least minimum

[00:34:01.36] spk_3:
minimum

[00:34:02.86] spk_1:
minimum. Alright. You have it out. You gotta go in a

[00:34:06.95] spk_0:
minimum minimum of once a week after. Right, okay. Yeah. Because when you’re event comes up and nobody nobody RSVPs, it’s because you haven’t been keeping in touch the people forgot about, you know,

[00:34:19.77] spk_1:
seriously? We have our lives. Right. Right. Right. And you disembark as long as like who is this? And why did I even get on the list, you know, so don’t be gone too long. Make sure you stay in front of them, let them know what’s going on. And when you show up and they show you show up in their inbox, they’re going to know exactly who you are. You want to open it. So stay consistent

[00:34:40.34] spk_0:
and then you build that relationship up. Maybe you get their U. S. Mail address. Maybe you can you do a print annual report. Maybe you can send that to that. You wanted to send them a little swag. But take your time build a relationship over

[00:34:54.20] spk_1:
the relationship. You’re right, Tony. Alright. That’s the main key. Is that building a relationship piece,

[00:35:00.24] spk_0:
Right? Because we’re trying to turn them into donors for God’s sake.

[00:35:02.79] spk_1:
Yeah. We’re asking for money here.

[00:35:05.67] spk_3:
That’s the goal. So

[00:35:06.81] spk_0:
our volunteers could be, you know, it could be maybe committed

[00:35:09.46] spk_1:
the other time, which is really valuable. Right? Valuable. Also. Absolutely.

[00:35:12.91] spk_3:
All

[00:35:14.13] spk_0:
right. Go ahead with your E. For execution, please.

[00:35:47.44] spk_1:
So execution is the main part is when we’re asking for money. Okay, So we’re ready to get them from the list and we’re asking them to give us a certain amount of money um for our calls. And so all of these other elements that S C. A. And L. They all lead up to the execution and so how do you do this? You’re gonna want to make for sure again that you’re consistent with that email list and when you ask for the sale or you ask for the donation, they already have a relationship with you and you’re really clear on where can they go and donate? Um What’s the timeline? Do they need to get on a call with you and talk about this more? You’re really defining out, you know how can they go about giving their money? Um Do they need to you know have particular people there or whatever the at the C. T. A. Is you want to make sure that you’re really clear on this and that’s that execution execution piece.

[00:36:15.43] spk_0:
And how long would you say from someone first joining the list to to asking them to make their first gift? What what what time period should that be?

[00:37:26.33] spk_1:
Um this is gonna vary by by organization but if you’re looking at the analytics and you’re seeing that people are consistently opening things that consistently clicking on your newsletter and they’re coming to your website. That’s probably a clear sign that they’re really interested. Okay so if they’re more interested in you’re seeing a 40% open rate uh They’re clicking is about a 20% click rate then it might be you can probably asked earlier but if you’re seeing that they need a little bit more time and not quite opening up the emails um then you’re not quite getting a click like you want, you might want to space that add a little bit more. So I always advise minimum uh to keep giving 80% and only asked 20%. So if you’re giving for four weeks straight, just straight information maybe on the fifth week, you can ask, hey, would you like to donate to our calls here and this and that. So it’s just about giving and balancing out that making for sure that they’re comfortable with what you do. They kind of see where the money would go. And then once you’re ready down the line, you say, hey, we’re needed to raise money for this or your money would go towards this. Cause how would you like to donate? And this is the perfect time to get started before the holidays because this is the time that you can create all the content, right? You can get them really comfortable with you and let them know what your messages and messaging is. And then you just ask for a sales. So you have plenty of time between this time in december to start getting that going.

[00:37:38.33] spk_0:
Yeah, because we are right. We’re coming up on the fourth quarter of the very important fourth quarter. All right. So, so you’re looking for you, you think 40% open rate and 20% click rate. Those are those are good numbers.

[00:38:53.02] spk_1:
Yes. And so I was talking to someone earlier. She was like, well I don’t have a 40% open rate and that’s fine. The averages around 30-35% open rate. That 40 is just a really good engaged audience. So they’re actually opening it. And it’s probably because you have a really good subject line. Right? And so I like to say that if you can get around 40, that means you have a really engaged audience, they’re not cold. Um, and they’re warm. And so Anything below that between 30, 30 and 35, that’s average, but below 30 is kind of bad. So you might want to either clean up your list or you might need to, um, you know, change your subject and kind of see, so that’s that testing piece. And a lot of people, you know, don’t know that about market, but marketing is a huge area where you have to test and kind of see what works for you, what works for your organization. And so you want to test and see what kind of subject lines do my audience open? Are they opening them at all or where did they come from? What’s the information that I gave them exchange for the email? And am I consistently making content around that or have I changed up something that makes them not want to open the email? So these are all things that you want to look at when you’re building an email list because like we said earlier, you don’t want to have a big list of people who aren’t really engaged already. You have a list of like 100 people, but they’re really engaged. They’re gonna, they’re gonna, you know, give you those funds at the end of the day,

[00:39:05.42] spk_0:
when you say, clean up the list, you’re talking about dropping people off who are chronically un engaged, you know, they’re not not opening the not clicking.

[00:39:45.32] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. It’s not gonna do you any good to have. It’s just literally vanity metrics at that point, before I clean up the list, I always just do you know a really quick check and say, hey, are you there? Or hey, would you like to continue to learn about X. Y. Z. If you get replies on those emails, you can keep those people on the list. The other people have not opened it or have not click anything. Those are used a clear sign that they’re not really, uh you know, people that you should probably keep on your list. And so before you clean them up, you can always just send out those quick little to emails that I just mentioned and kind of see, uh, you know, are you guys still wanted to be here? Or you can just drop those people who are not opening them,

[00:40:03.81] spk_0:
let’s make something clear. Just so there’s no listener that’s that’s got a question in their mind, uh the open rate that’s when someone opens, that’s opening your opening your email. Right? The open. That’s just that’s going from, you know, on your phone. That’s going from the little some little summary to tapping it to opening it up. And

[00:40:12.67] spk_1:
yeah, any time you open up email, that’s your open rate, your full

[00:40:15.45] spk_0:
message. Right? And then the click rate is just somebody clicks on anything in anything in the message.

[00:40:20.41] spk_1:
Usually you’re yeah, usually your newsletter, whatever link you have in there. So let’s say you have a link that leads back to your newsletter on your website or at least back to your blog or whatever is you have in there. It’s gonna catch that click and like you said, so that’s the click inside of the email,

[00:40:34.71] spk_0:
your call, your call to action

[00:40:36.40] spk_1:
called the action. Exactly.

[00:40:37.50] spk_0:
Someone. Okay. I just wanna make sure everybody understands the open right click.

[00:40:40.44] spk_1:
Ok. So those are the main two that you guys want to look at when you guys are running email marketing campaigns and those are the main things we look at. Two is how high those rates are because that tells me if my content is working or not.

[00:40:53.81] spk_0:
All right. So that’s the scale method. Um as I, as I thought might happen, I did think of a few things now require us to go

[00:41:02.81] spk_1:
back. That’s

[00:41:13.21] spk_0:
the lackluster host, like I said, that you’re stuck with going back to the, to the platforms, the social media. Yeah. Um let’s talk about ones that are no longer emerging, but they’re newer slack. WhatsApp Tick tock is their value there for nonprofits? Or does it does depend on who your, what your persona looks like as to whether you’re on one of the newer platforms.

[00:42:07.70] spk_1:
Yeah. So if, if you’re going to join one of those, you really do need to make sure that your audience is over there. So if you are targeting, you know, teenagers or younger people, then you might can look into something like a Tiktok, right? But if you’re targeting, you know, wealthier donors who are over 60, they probably won’t be over there as much. Not that they won’t be over there is that they won’t be over their majority. And so you want to look at a platform where they’ll be like facebook or linkedin. Right. And so it’s gonna, like you said, go back down to that persona. But you know, when you’re thinking about which platform, if you want to be on and what you want to target? Look at, you know, where would these people be? What is that demographics that we talked about and that’s going to help you decide which one is going to, you know, work best if that platform doesn’t work, you’ve just been using it for like two or three months and you’re not really seeing much change. Maybe you should try another platform. So it’s again, that testing and making for sure that you understand? Where is my audience before you give up.

[00:42:20.10] spk_0:
Are you seeing nonprofits on Tiktok? Do you have?

[00:42:23.18] spk_1:
Honestly, I have not, I haven’t, I have not. You know what? I have seen a few on. What’s the other new social media platform? It’s like an audio only kind of platform. I can’t think of it right now.

[00:42:36.17] spk_0:
Oh, I think I’ve heard of this to uh, yeah. All right.

[00:42:39.41] spk_1:
I don’t know. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. It’s just audio only. I’ve heard some nonprofit starting to do those because it’s kind of like podcasts and so that might be a really cool option for people if if you have a really good viewership, you want to turn them into listeners and that might be an option for you.

[00:42:56.20] spk_0:
Okay. Okay, slack. Is that is their value in uh, nonprofits on slack.

[00:44:04.89] spk_1:
Yeah. So slack is usually used to communicate which you can communicate with, you know, your volunteer. So that’s more like an internal type of software. You can kind of get in there and engage with people in your organization. So we can talk about that a little bit too. Like how do you kind of keep people engaged in inside of the organization? So something like a slag or Asana that’s going to help you really track your projects. Right. So these are, these are gonna be helpful for making for sure that those projects move along, uh, through the pipeline. So, uh, let’s say you guys are having an event and you want to start marketing it four months ahead of time, That slack kind of platform will enable you to put each team member in there that you guys can communicate, upload um you know, marking materials, schedule out those emails and things like that inside of that slack platform, so that’s what that’s used for and other ones are like a sauna or teamwork and things like that. Those are all kind of work on that capacity. Also when it comes to social media, which I talked, we had mentioned earlier like you don’t want to be glued to your social media right? So there are there are Softwares that can actually help you schedule out your content so you won’t actually have to be there every day at five o’clock scheduling on your content. So these platforms are things like you know, sprout social hubspot um plan only that you can actually upload your content and ahead of time and then schedule things out so that you don’t actually have to be there. All you have to do is come in still for about 30 minutes to come in and engage and making sure you answer questions and comments and things like that. So there is some pieces of automation that you can use

[00:44:35.89] spk_0:
Dora, what was the third one you said hubspot? I know I know sprout social and what was

[00:44:40.05] spk_1:
the social and what is called plan early and that one, I used a lot for instagram, for scheduling on instagram. Post

[00:44:46.39] spk_0:
plan, could you spell it for us?

[00:44:48.29] spk_1:
It’s called plan early. So it’s P L A N O L Y.

[00:45:00.69] spk_0:
Okay, cool. Thank you. All right. No listeners to be able to find it. Okay. Um you know, you got a little Dallas texas accent, so I wanna make

[00:45:02.80] spk_3:
sure,

[00:45:04.29] spk_1:
I don’t know I had next sent to someone said it the other, we got like, really

[00:45:07.51] spk_3:
got

[00:45:37.49] spk_0:
a little one man, I’m from new york. Uh how obvious is that? Just a little So, you know, I just wanna get folks to be able to hear through it. You talk about the subject line. What about, you know, uh lots of folks um encourage listeners to use that, that subheading uh right below the subject, like that summary that you see on your phone, you know, you get like 100 50 characters below the subject line. That can be used creatively also to encourage people to open. Right?

[00:46:11.08] spk_1:
Yeah, definitely. Um it can definitely be used to, but but mainly it is going to be the subject line record. That’s that’s what’s gonna make me click it and then the actual content inside of your email is gonna be the most important, but if you want to add, let’s say I’m having a contest or something like that and I want to make sure that people understand, you know, what, what they can expect when they open the email, then I might add a little bit of context inside of that secondary subject line that you’re talking about. Um, it’s not the most important, but it is, you know, something that you can add a little bit of extra information if you don’t have enough information in your subject line. Okay.

[00:46:20.18] spk_0:
Uh, why don’t you uh, story it’s story time. Did you tell the story of uh, you know, some non profit uh, that you know, maybe not, you know, step by step to the scale method, but nowhere you saw, you saw things where things are moving, you start to get some traction, saw some success converted to focus the donors and tell us a good story.

[00:47:47.28] spk_1:
Yeah, so one of the non profits I just recently worked with, they were uh mid sized non profit in boston and what they focused on is helping disadvantaged minorities find jobs. Um, they also were involved with feeding uh, their local community and one of their major uh, academies that they were going to try to open up was just to help younger teenage students to come in and learn how to volunteer and learn how to get back to their community and be really good students. And so they were trying to push that act that academy and they didn’t know how to do that. So most of their marketing was still done the old school way. So they were getting out there, you know, going to these different uh, local churches, going to schools and things like that on foot and not necessarily, uh, utilizing social media, they have been around for about 15 years. So they did have an email list, but they weren’t really using it outside of, you know, just letting people know like tomorrow we’re gonna be doing an advantage at X, Y. C. And so when they brought me in, they were like, hey, how do we uh, you know, really build some interest online and so that we don’t necessarily have to rely on doing these old school methods all the time. And so one of the first things I took a look at was that s of the scale method, which is their social media, which is almost non existent. Um, they have maybe one account, but it wasn’t used for like four years. So

[00:48:00.23] spk_3:
that

[00:49:52.47] spk_1:
is non existent. Yeah, I was like, okay, what’s this? So we really have to start almost from scratch their built their, all of their platforms, uh, to the point where people were actually following, we could actually, you know, see the analytics of them leaving the platforms and clicking their websites. We did get people onto their email list and then I taught them, you know, kind of what I was discussing here. Like how do you nurture those people now that they’re on your email is like, don’t just leave them hanging or don’t just let them know the day before the event, Like, hey, it’s tomorrow because you probably won’t get as much engagement. So I taught them how to use content inside of their email lists and how to, you know, get people interested before these type of events happen or before you, they want that call to action to happen so that they can really start seeing well, okay with this organization is really cool because they really do help their community. Um, or one of the, it was funny because during my time with them, one of the main uh, directors, he had an emergency outside when they were feeding the hungry that was actually featured on the news. And so I was like, hey, this is perfect for social media just to show that you guys, you know, not only you guys out there on foot, but you guys, you know, care about your community even when an emergency happens, you’re going to step in and so that just makes it just makes you look good as a brand and you can share all these types of things with your audience because they care to know it right. And so I walked them through the whole process, like you said, trained their team how to do this. So if you have an organization and you are, you know, you’re wanting to be a little bit more hands off. I do have the opportunity for you to, you know, come into my programs and do that. But they use that program where I kind of came in, set up all of their automation. So they don’t have to be glued to things and they can really focus on the mission of the organization. And so when I left them, all of their team was trained. They have the automation is in place and so they’re on their way now to, to bring in a lot of money less than I checked with With them up there in Boston. They had brought in about 50,000 into that new academy that I was talking about. Um, and that’s gonna be really focused, like I said on on these students this year, on how to make them really good students and make them want to study, make them want to volunteer and things like that.

[00:50:07.36] spk_0:
Okay. And that $50,000 was largely from the relationships that got built

[00:50:55.36] spk_1:
relationships in ways that we just talked about. Exactly exactly, strictly relationships really because you know, once you get them on the list, you got, you know, warmed up. A lot of people are asking questions as I was running a lot of their socials at the time. So I got to see people ask questions about, you know, how can I get involved or what do you guys do or how long have you guys been around? And that is a really good way to, you know, meet prospective donors, you know, get him on the list and share that information. Uh, one of the directors there, she also had a radio show. So she would do things every morning. Uh, let’s say on on Wednesday at nine o’clock, she would, you know, give her information. And I said, when I first came in I was like, okay, you’re doing this radio show. But what if I’m not listening at nine o’clock Eastern time because I’m here in central time. Alright, Am I never gonna see the show? And she was like, well, I don’t, I don’t know what to do. So I taught her how to repurpose that content. So where she can share it on her social media, she can also share that on her email list and more people get to see, you know what they’re doing up there.

[00:51:13.66] spk_0:
Okay, that’s a great story.

[00:51:14.93] spk_3:
All

[00:51:16.16] spk_1:
right, we’re

[00:51:19.14] spk_0:
gonna leave it

[00:51:19.49] spk_3:
there Drake

[00:51:38.26] spk_0:
actually, Dordrecht, digital marketing strategist, coach and consultant, you’ll find her at Adora drake marketing dot com if you want to hit the listener landing pages she set up for us. It’s a test now. So Dora drake marketing dot com. Hyphen non profit radio No spaces,

[00:51:40.96] spk_1:
no spaces. Thank

[00:51:43.12] spk_0:
you very much. Terrific ideas. Thank you.

[00:51:45.46] spk_1:
Thank you guys. It was a pleasure being here.

[00:51:47.86] spk_0:
Our pleasure, my pleasure, my pleasure, well, our pleasure to listen, my pleasure to talk with

[00:51:52.61] spk_3:
you

[00:52:25.05] spk_0:
next week, effective fundraising that’s Warren Mcfarland’s new book and he’ll be with me if you missed any part of this week’s show? I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue,

[00:53:01.55] spk_2:
our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Solomon is our web guy and this music is by scott steiner. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great. Mm hmm. Mhm. What

Nonprofit Radio for August 30, 2021: Decolonizing Wealth

My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

 

 

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We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:02:21.14] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with hyper guard Dallas the asia Footnote one If you tickled me with the idea that you missed this week’s show de colonizing wealth. Edgar Villanueva’s book de colonizing wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy, This originally aired 30 November 2018 Antonis take two gratitude all day. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform, empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Let us begin here is de colonizing wealth. It’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio Edgar Villanueva, He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andrews Family Fund, Working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at Grand Valley State University and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s held leadership roles at Kate b Reynolds charitable trust in north Carolina and marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle, Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and at Villanueva Edgar, you’re welcome to studio.

[00:02:22.29] spk_0:
Thank you. tony Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:23.87] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october

[00:02:28.33] spk_0:
october 16th.

[00:02:29.31] spk_1:
Yes. Alright. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times?

[00:02:33.16] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:02:34.14] spk_1:
congratulations on that. They perhaps perhaps perhaps you for nonprofit radio

[00:02:37.66] spk_0:
Right, right. I’m ready. All

[00:03:25.24] spk_1:
your, all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So it’s all culminated here. Um, I promised listeners, footnote one, footnote 12. hyper guard Alice these asia. Uh, of course, anybody listens to the show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease. Every single show. Uh but in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper guard anesthesia. So this is the first time Over 400 shows that the, that the guest unknowingly has uh, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do that every single show. Um you didn’t know that you’re not listening to nonprofit radio It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re, you’re a bit of a troublemaker

[00:03:30.54] spk_0:
a little bit.

[00:03:33.34] spk_1:
Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. Uh,

[00:03:33.76] spk_0:
someone told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way, but

[00:04:04.94] spk_1:
that’s not also bad. Get a little closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate with it almost. Um, I used to call myself the charlie Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. Uh, can’t use that any longer. Um, because you talk about uh, colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like these are bad things.

[00:04:06.84] spk_0:
Yes, they are bad thing. What

[00:04:09.48] spk_1:
uh, what is the, what’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:46.74] spk_0:
so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the non profit sector, um, you know, have this firewall that we are completely disconnected from, um, Wall Street or from capitalism or, or some of those uh, processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from uh, corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, um, sometimes, uh, not in the best ways, not in the

[00:04:50.24] spk_1:
backs of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:10.14] spk_0:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country is steeped in trauma. Right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth, but you know, when we look back and we see in general how wealth was accumulated. Um, you know, especially I’m from the south north Carolina, we’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was the legacy of slavery and stolen lands that, that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:23.04] spk_1:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans.

[00:06:09.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, we as a, people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities. Um, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in north Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact, but colonization and the, the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparents generation kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still, we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are a resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we are trying to solve today as a society, have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:22.24] spk_1:
You say that the natives are

[00:06:23.73] spk_0:
the original philanthropists.

[00:06:44.94] spk_1:
Um, now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. Uh, Robinson county north Carolina, which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west I think of, of Robinson County lumber. So the lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the lum bees and Lumberton. The town

[00:06:49.90] spk_0:
named for lambis. Right? So love bees were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first and so certainly the river came from

[00:07:00.26] spk_1:
the name of the river

[00:07:10.04] spk_0:
came from rivers been there much longer than, Yeah. So we are, you know, a hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north Carolina. Um, that I came together to form the lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:40.94] spk_1:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to uh, native americans as the, as the original philanthropists. But uh, that, that struck me a lot. I think you, you say, you say that the end of the, at the end of the book is where I, where I caught it. Um, uh, we just have like a minute and a half or so before the break. So just we’re introducing this, we’ve got plenty of time together, wealth. You say divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:08:01.84] spk_0:
So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral wealth in itself, I say is, is neutral, but it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed. Um, the acts that can result as a, as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what that’s what has caused the harm in itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has caused trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven,

[00:09:10.04] spk_1:
6, 6 steps to that second half of your book. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and get that voice heard in the right places. Places like the Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, fast Company Market Watch and lots of others you’ve heard me name. They’ll help you find your voice and get it out. Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to de colonizing wealth. *** tony-martignetti Uh, that is your indian name. Did I by any chance say that correctly.

[00:09:13.13] spk_0:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shabby with my Ojibwe these days. You

[00:09:17.72] spk_1:
don’t know your, you know,

[00:09:18.75] spk_0:
you know that sounds, but

[00:09:25.84] spk_1:
that is your indian name. Uh, leading bird, uh, tell the story of how you got that name. Well, welcome back to don’t welcome back to the exploitation and control, don’t we? Yeah, this is a good story, how you got that name.

[00:11:55.54] spk_0:
So my tribe, the lumbee tribe in north Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are, whatever your mom calls you, that’s your name. Right. Right. So, um, but when I, when I was working in north Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there is a medicine man and some, when the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to, to talk or have a session and growing up in north Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh north Carolina. And so, but I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and to um see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me if you’re, if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um, and so I met with this guy in the Marriott hotel in denver colorado or this, this native health conference. So it was all uh, tell the story in the book is quite um hilarious and in many ways, but at the end of our session where I was feeling um excited about, you know, the conversation we had but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I’ve, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. Um he did offer me a native name, Naghani pinochet, which means leading bird. Um, so I was very honored and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right am I a little tweety bird or am I mighty eagle birds are best? So um he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V. Formation. Um, and as I when I left I studied these birds and and they’re the leading bird. I’m the leading birds leading bird. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V. Formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understand its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V. Formation, it’s really like an amazing natural national phenomenon, how how they communicate and fly together. Uh the other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird forward. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And um when I, when I learned these characteristics, um I just felt really, um I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life and I think it’s the type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:32.04] spk_1:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered, uh, they’re, they’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, and you know, be injured. But that’s how they, and I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close but not so close. They’re gonna be injured, right?

[00:13:00.84] spk_0:
It’s very, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, gPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds, um, is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more. But I think when they’re when someone is down or you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen. Uh, they, there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and are interrelated, you know, being interrelated and

[00:13:21.14] spk_1:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is a, this is an indigenous belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of. The birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are, each of one of us related to the, to all the other.

[00:14:34.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So there there is a native belief um all my relations that means um you’re, all of our suffering is mutual, all of our thriving is mutual and uh you know we are, we are interdependent and so it’s a very different mindset or worldview from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset. Um we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives um and we are related to the land and to the animals around us, but all of the things, all of the decisions and um that we are making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor and so what our responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our um our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and and to think about how to apply them in my work

[00:14:54.74] spk_1:
and you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility for as you said, were thriving and suffering together. Um what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:14:55.96] spk_0:
Yeah, so you know, I think are we all responsible?

[00:14:58.94] spk_1:
We’re all

[00:15:11.24] spk_0:
responsible because we’re all affected. Um, I think some folks, when we, you know, we learn about colonization in schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We um, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes like the natural path of progress. Absolutely

[00:15:17.37] spk_1:
way it’s learned,

[00:16:11.34] spk_0:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher columbus for example. And so but the realities are that colonization um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And uh, that type of history that we have in this country is something that we um, as as the people have not come to terms with, we actually we don’t tell the truth, we don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. Um, and so the dynamics of colonization which are uh, to divide to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. Um, you know, I I refer to them as the colonizing virus, because they they are still in our bodies as as a nation. They show up in our policies, our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions in the nonprofit sector, and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power.

[00:16:20.24] spk_1:
Uh, these

[00:17:25.54] spk_0:
naturally to your point about us, them organizations go ahead. So, you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, um, you know, the dynamics of colonization because when you look at um uh where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. When you look at ask the question of why this money was held back from public coffers, um that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting the safety net and vulnerable communities. Um And when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend it, you see a very um white dominant kind of mindset happening because for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit um foundation set on $800 billion of assets. That’s a lot of money that has been uh you know, sheltered from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, um things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities, but that money has been put there with little to no accountability. Um Private foundations are only required by the I. R. S. To uh pay out 5% of their assets. And so then, you know, you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public good. Only a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community. Let’s assume

[00:18:11.04] spk_1:
it’s uh I know there are a lot of Foundations that use that five minimum as their maximum. So that’s so 5% of that would be $40 billion. Uh So the counter is, but there’s $40 billion coming Each year. Could be more, but let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And you know, we’re trying to preserve this uh this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if, you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were trying to, you know, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say,

[00:19:26.24] spk_0:
right, right. And you know, I think I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5%, when Congress had acted that 5% role, Um it actually began at 6%, I believe in 1974. And then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having A tax break. And so that that uh IRS minimum payout of 5%. That rule was put in place to force um foundations to actually begin making grants. And so, you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with a 95%, that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good in communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too, generate more money for future grantmaking And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and extract extractive industries, um, that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point

[00:20:20.74] spk_1:
often uh, that often right, Those investments are in our industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through its, through its mission. And, and in fact funding um, the uh, something else that was going to ask about the, the way the money is. Um, All right, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s there’s a lot that organizations can gain by hiring people of color indigenous people. What uh, and and very few. You’re, you’re a rare exception. Um, working in, in found doing foundation work. Uh, what’s the, make explicit those uh, those advantages?

[00:20:49.64] spk_0:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely um an exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 native Americans that I could find, we kind of found each other. What year was that? Uh, this was in 2005 And we are now, there’s about 25 of us now, the last time I counted. Um, so yeah, there’s, there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations and I think more and more foundations are understanding to bring folks in uh, 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:12.64] spk_1:
and not only foundations but nonprofits and Ngos doing the groundwork. Absolutely foundations of the funders. And of course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but, but for the nonprofits doing the day to day work

[00:21:15.21] spk_0:
as well

[00:21:16.01] spk_1:
represent the communities that you’re

[00:22:06.94] spk_0:
absolutely, it kind of makes sense, right? And uh, you know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff and their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re, you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit or foundation to, to have folks uh, that that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness and um, you know about the problem in a different way. It’s going to create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies. That that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes and board meetings where decisions were being made and I always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room and I hear these decisions are these conversations and I’m thinking like, oh my God, like you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother or my family that still living in poverty. Decision makers disconnected, there’s such a disconnect.

[00:23:12.94] spk_1:
Yeah, um and I I thought of what I was going to ask you about or just comment on the Foundation wise, we do see some Foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Uh I wouldn’t say it’s a needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time, that there’s a foundation that’s committed now to spending its its assets down, you know, uh was paul Allen, was that uh not paul Allen the Microsoft? I think the Microsoft founder, co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was paul Allen Okay, okay. Uh I was thinking of steve Allen comedy all comic, that’s why I thought, no, it wasn’t him, but it was paul Allen, I think his foundation is one, but there are some, so we do hear some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times people we need to move the needle.

[00:24:15.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think deciding to spin down is a very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now um if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um there there’s a lot of amazing work happening um right now that is so under resource that if we could um support and get behind investing money in these various movements and these uh in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh the 5% that is being invested, only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. That would make a big difference. And so I think um you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards of Foundation should think about, what is the value of, you know, why why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of uh you know, uh way of thinking,

[00:24:33.24] spk_1:
if this was CNN right now, I would I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times, uh we have to work on that at talking alternative, we need we need video capture and screens and everything. Uh in your video, in your interview with David Bernstein new York times, uh you said by not investing more in communities of color philanthropy? Venture capital, impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:25:52.34] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when, when policies fail or systems fail, um, we hurt the hardest and uh, but there’s just something so magical about and sense of pride that I have about my community because we are so resilient regardless of um, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the um, you know, genocide stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. Um, and so there’s, there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would, if I weren’t native, I would be interested to know like what, when you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Um, indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, um, you know, really fighting for environmental protections. Um, there, there’s so much wisdom and you know, often foundations roll out new theories of changes are changes are see strategies or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and I’m like, wow, we’ve been doing that in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:00.64] spk_1:
Is there still a lumbee community in Robinson robeson county?

[00:26:04.27] spk_0:
Yes, there are, there are about 60,000 enrolled members in the lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County

[00:26:12.59] spk_1:
now have a north Carolina driver’s license. Will that, will that get me in? Can I be a member?

[00:26:17.86] spk_0:
You know, we were very inclusive. We, we, we’ll take, we’ll adopt you as an honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation to get officially enrolled. So it’s, it’s a stretch for an italian american with north Carolina license

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
player and, uh, driver’s license. All right. Um, you, you talk about, you know, I guess, I mean, we’re skirting around these things, Make it explicit the power imbalance, you know, that, um, minorities are seeking it. And uh, mostly middle aged white guys are, are doling it out. Uh, you know, piecemeal, um, the, the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the, even the word, you know, the granting, it’s like some, uh, I don’t know, it’s like some holy orders has, has bestowed upon you something that’s a gift when, uh, your, your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s, it’s a, it’s a right equally held by all,

[00:27:46.44] spk_0:
yeah. You know, I think power and money, A lot of, a lot of this does come down to power and ownership. Um, we are talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. Um, to me, equity really is all about shifting power. And we often think about that from the lens of equality. So we’re going to have the same power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power to take a

[00:27:54.36] spk_1:
back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know, that’s, that’s highly unlikely. Like infant is really small, unlikely.

[00:28:27.24] spk_0:
You know, it’s, it’s a hard thing for people to, uh, to think about. And especially if you have, if you’ve been privileged for so long, um, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I, I, I have less than I’ve had. So, um, but you know, we, I want to think about this through an abundance of my frame. There’s enough, there’s enough resources, enough power to go around. Um, we just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging those who have not been privileged by that problem.

[00:32:43.94] spk_1:
So I love that you, you approach it from a position of abundance and not, not scarcity. It’s time for Tony’s take to gratitude all day. This is coming up just next week. So this is something for folks that are listening to the show very quickly after it’s published. No, wait, what am I saying next week? Yeah, it’s this week. It’s this week september 1st and second. It’s gratitude all day, september 1st and second Wednesday and thursday, it’s online, It’s a live stream, you join and share with the world your gratitude. What are you grateful for health, your family, friends, good drinks, prosperity, uh safety. Uh you know, I’m thinking things that well, I don’t want to share my gratitude, I’m doing that, you’ll, you’ll hear what I’m doing mine, I can’t give you mine now, I can’t do that now. So I’m trying to think of what your gratitude might be. Uh wonderful vacation blossoming flowers over the summer. Uh you got approved for your life insurance policy, you bought your new home, you sold your old home, your kids are starting college, your kids are leaving college, whatever you’re grateful for you get the idea, you join the live stream on Wednesday and thursday the 1st and 2nd and you share it with the world whatever you’re grateful for now, The best time to do this is 7-9 eastern on Wednesday september 1st because that’s the part that I’ll be hosting. See, there are different hosts throughout hosts throughout the 24 hours and I’m the hostess for 7 to 9 p.m. Eastern Wednesday night. The whole thing runs from one p.m. On Wednesday to one pm Thursday. So the best time to share your slot, share your gratitude is my slot because that’s you know, you don’t want to take a chance with with a lackluster host when you can have a lackluster host of your segment. So 79 p. M. That’s, that’s the best time to share your gratitude, although you certainly can do it anytime during the 24 hours. And where do you get all the info for gratitude all day. It’s very simple. You go to gratitude rising dot org Now if you can’t join us because you didn’t listen to the podcast the day or the day after it was published, then just do your own gratitude. You don’t have to share it with the world. Do you? Do you do daily gratitude? You know what that is in the morning when you wake up, you you just, you’re beyond the twilight zone, but you haven’t gotten out of bed yet. A couple of minutes devoted to daily gratitude. Now I don’t do it daily, but I do it often verbalizing, saying them out loud, verbalizing the things that you are grateful for, think through and go into depth about the things I’m grateful for just talking to myself, but saying them out loud. So if you can’t join us for gratitude all day, do your own day gratitude and hopefully daily gratitude that way. But I love the idea of just gratitude, giving thanks and sharing it if you can. But even even saying it out loud is, you know, sharing it with yourself. It makes a difference saying it out loud versus just thinking about it. It does, That’s gratitude and that is Tony’s take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Now I want to go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar. Villanueva. See, I thought he would pronounce his name. Edgar And I was wrong. And but that’s that’s why I said Edgar. But it’s Edgar. Edgar. A gravel in river. And de colonizing wealth. Welcome back. You didn’t go far.

[00:32:45.10] spk_0:
Thanks for having me. Okay. I’ll still be here. Yes, absolutely.

[00:33:06.44] spk_1:
You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. Um It hasn’t happened, I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s, let’s start getting uh positive. You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, And uh, I thought you came up like five short. I mean, we have another 12 steps. I mean, if you want to, if you want to share power, you’re gonna have to have, you got to step it up with like 12 steps or, or even 15, you know, you have more than the colonizers. Uh, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re they’re pretty radical.

[00:33:33.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s a there’s a quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this and we can move on

[00:33:38.37] spk_1:
prime number. So that

[00:33:56.14] spk_0:
I think that’s that’s unique. I don’t know why, but yeah, so, you know, but I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, uh, you know, a process that we can begin. but there is no linear way or a quick way to um, to solve, all these problems or to, to undo what has been done. But there are ways to, to, to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:34:07.42] spk_1:
listening out for us, just list all seven and then we’ll

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
talk about, I’m sure. So they’re grieve, apologize, listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay.

[00:34:22.54] spk_1:
Um, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while. I mean this, uh, I just did, I admire though. I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:35:30.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience, um, when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to just re ground myself and my values and um, and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space. Um, the other parts of it come from, I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and philanthropy who were, I think of very forward thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of, you know, what, what, what have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this. Um, and then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice um, in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used in schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is a model that has come from indigenous communities where we um sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:35:58.84] spk_1:
So, uh, grieving, uh, you say everybody, I mean because of our inter relatedness where we all need to grieve, including the people of color and indigenous, you know, those who have been oppressed.

[00:37:06.43] spk_0:
Absolutely, we all need to grieve. Um, we need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, um, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm and the loss that has calls for people of color, but also white people. And uh, you know, I think that’s uh, we it’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been caused a community of color. It’s not so clear. We don’t talk about it very much the loss that uh, the colonization and uh, the idea of white supremacy has actually caused in white communities. But it’s uh, it is, there is a loss there. I talk about it in the book um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and uh tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases um languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being american. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and they feel connected to that in some way.

[00:37:34.63] spk_1:
Um, and um the the thing you talk about too is uh the orphans orphans, you say that those of us who are descendants of, of the, of the settlers you call us orphans, how’s that

[00:38:54.42] spk_0:
I call them orphans. This is a term apart from some research that has been done on whiteness and it is, it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss. Again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from, from the home country, from where where folks, settlers came from giving up those, those ways of being interacting in community to subscribe to this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country um for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know, I’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that, this is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud to be a citizen of this country. Um, but there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here. Um you know, and and not um that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparents or from or the language they spoke with, the culture they have. Um and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities. That is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color. Um, and if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, um it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race.

[00:38:58.32] spk_1:
You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a real not real. Why? Why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, uh, how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not real?

[00:39:41.42] spk_0:
Um Well, well, the idea that that uh, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing. Right? So this wasn’t an ideology that was created um in order to be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been uh you know, an idea that is not real, but we have built systems and um societal norms around that. You know, growing up I was taught that you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness, was was better. And so if I were to behave or dress or act in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea of white supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not real, but there are very real implications and for how we have adopted that, that belief. All right.

[00:40:11.71] spk_1:
Um and you’re you also encourage uh nonprofits and teams to have a grieving space while we’re talking about, we’re talking about grieve, we just have about a minute before a break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps, but what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:40:54.31] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, these these steps are our personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think especially those of us working in the nonprofit where we’re supporting communities, we need to have space spaces in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that and to feel emotion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that, and the research shows that there um it’s actually um leads to a much more productive workplace to have moments where we we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening, you know, in our communities.

[00:41:33.91] spk_1:
The book is de colonizing wealth, just, just, just get the book, you know, because we can only scratch the surface of it here in an hour. But uh, de colonizing wealth dot com, that’s where you go. I like the idea of the grieving space, you know, uh acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something, you know, it’s how how how oppressive is that

[00:41:52.91] spk_0:
very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around these these secrets of like how this wealth was amassed or secrets that are within these families that um, you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward as you said,

[00:42:32.10] spk_1:
and and that was the next step in terms of uh, your next step apologizing recognizing which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money. I mean, you worked for the Reynolds KB is KB. Reynolds Foundation Reynolds tobacco north Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not going to ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the, in the step apologizing.

[00:42:35.56] spk_0:
Absolutely no, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And uh, chapter one of the book is called my arrival in the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former estate or plantation of R. J. Reynolds. And so, uh, really literally and metaphorically I was, I was working there. But no, there was, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And I think you see that, you know, in, in north Carolina, recently, the chancellor of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and building that university and that some of the buildings there named after a former slave owners, what most people of color want. Um, it’s just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition

[00:43:31.70] spk_1:
acknowledge and maybe move to apology. Perhaps that didn’t johns Hopkins University do something similar that, that they had, their founders were uh, johns Hopkins, their founders were slave owners.

[00:43:34.49] spk_0:
I think Georgetown University

[00:43:38.10] spk_1:
Georgetown. Sorry, thank you. Okay. Georgetown, there were pre right. There were priests, uh, priest founders that were slave

[00:44:16.49] spk_0:
owners. That’s right, actually, no. Um a friend of mine who lives in New Orleans as a black woman who is a descendant um and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment. They set in community together, talking about the history talk acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big right up in in the paper and you know, this has been a very uh healing I think for the university, but also from for my friend Karen, um who is now having that, you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors, you talk a

[00:44:51.49] spk_1:
good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um Canada, uh you gotta get the book. I mean, we can’t we can’t tell all these stories. I mean, I know listeners, I know I know you love stories as much as I do, but there’s just not enough time to just get the damn book. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, for Pete’s sake. You go right now, if you’re listening live, where are you poughkeepsie? It’s connected. He uh Nottingham Maryland just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Um okay, listening, you talk about and empathic and generative listening.

[00:46:20.28] spk_0:
Right? So, you know, often um, when we, when we moved through a process like this, we feel bad, we’ve apologized. Um uh, the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so, but before you move for an act, you just need to pause to actually listen, Uh, to listen and learn. So to, uh, for, for non profits. You know, I ran a nonprofit, I’ve worked in philanthropy for 14 years. When I asked nonprofits what is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently? The response is always, I just wish they would listen. Uh, because there’s something about having resources, money, privilege and power when we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the airspace and we have an agenda and the non profits are going to be responsive to what we want. And you know, that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is a difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and, and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just, it’s just going to make you a better person, uh, feel like listening as a human, right? We all want to be, We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is to, um, to, to stop at times to also listen and to let others be hard put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Uh,

[00:46:51.38] spk_1:
listening. We talked about, we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors. And I know you’re next, you’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s, that’s, that’s the beginning of a relationship. As you said. You know, listening, genuine hearing, uh, two whether its donor’s or potential potential grantees. Um, there, there’s a lot to be learned.

[00:46:53.59] spk_0:
It goes back to the

[00:47:08.98] spk_1:
value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re, that you’re serving. Uh, okay. So relation you want us to, uh, you want to relate, let me ask you, you, you, you read, um, how to win friends and influence people. You say dozens of times. You said it doesn’t, I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Uh, the L Carnegie’s book dozens of times.

[00:47:37.08] spk_0:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um, I stole from the library of uh, my mom was a domestic worker and she was caring for frail elderly man. Um, they had this vast library. So I end up with this little book that you stole from an infirm elderly elderly man. I feel terrible about a book. It haunts me to this day. So this is a public, you

[00:47:46.10] spk_1:
didn’t even think to leave like $20 or something

[00:48:26.47] spk_0:
on the table and have it if I had it at that. All right. Um So hopefully this is my my way of giving back, this is my reparations for for that that wrong. But you know, and the one take away from me in that book uh is uh is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um And if you actually just listen more than talk, people are gonna think that you’re a great friend like well Edgar that was such a nice time with you. But even if I didn’t say much and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they are important because they are um you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they are interested in. Um It’s just gonna really take you much further in building a relationship

[00:48:54.57] spk_1:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking. Um You have you you have an example of uh um a like building design, like office design. Kitchens, you’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices.

[00:49:31.07] spk_0:
Yeah. You know so sort of like these ideas of like the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So yes, even the way buildings are designed especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and you know, hard edges, absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:50:45.06] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build and to end digital campaigns, They look professional, they’re affordable, they keep your campaigns organized. It’s all about digital campaign marketing. Most software. You know, it designed for big companies with big, big enterprise level price tag, sending blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s easy to use and walks you through the steps of building a digital campaign. You want to try out sending blue and get the free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony dot M A slash send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for de colonizing wealth. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth. Again, just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, get the thing, get the book just in terms of designing organizations, uh more egalitarian you’d like to see.

[00:51:35.86] spk_0:
Absolutely. So uh, one of the steps of the book is represent and what you look at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part of the sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power in organizations. So what are the, what are the ideas that I put forth in the book? Is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. Um, this would drastically change what, you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this, uh, far from what is required of, of many nonprofits. Funders actually are, you know, requiring this, of their nonprofit, that their funding, um, and many government organizations that receive government funding, federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of those nonprofits.

[00:51:49.40] spk_1:
Again, representative? Absolutes, yeah, that’s a, that’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:51:57.36] spk_0:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has, has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:52:17.45] spk_1:
And there are some examples you cite the novo Foundation in the book. Uh, they have a women’s building that they’re, they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something to turn into this building and, and the decisions being made by, by women who are going to be using the

[00:52:45.25] spk_0:
building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are um, really, um, putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is, is a foundation that I really appreciate. Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of the Novo Foundation, wrote the forward to my book. And they are folks that you, if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give, they are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens um, to folks who are impacted by, especially women and girls, which is an issue they really care about and they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundations agenda might be.

[00:53:06.85] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? It’s guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment.

[00:53:39.05] spk_0:
Right, Right. And, and that type of long term commitment is, uh, you know, something that, that is the best type of funding, you know, folks can be, you can focus on building relationship versus so I’ve got to meet these certain objectives, so I can keep getting this money year after year and so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna, you know, how am I going to pay the salaries next year? Um really allows folks to have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing in communities

[00:53:44.55] spk_1:
and and planning and and can plans that are being

[00:53:47.42] spk_0:
one only 1 or two

[00:53:56.25] spk_1:
years. Um so we kind of mishmash together, you know, relating and representing um investing.

[00:54:44.74] spk_0:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy to think about using all of its resources for um for for the public good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle issues If we’re supporting with the 5% in our right hand, Really good work, you know, mission-related work. But in our left hand we are investing 95% of our resources in um industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really canceling out the positive of of our resources. So, you know, there are great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation for example, who just recently declare that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus is going to be used in support of their mission.

[00:54:47.29] spk_1:
Uh Again, other examples in the book and uh we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up actually. Um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:55:28.04] spk_0:
the final step is repair. Um, all of us who are philanthropists are givers and as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we are all philanthropists. I’m supporting, um, nonprofits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine, how can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization in, in, in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color um, to support grassroots leadership? So reach across, um, and support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, uh, you know, along the lines of thinking or exercising these types of values.

[00:55:50.94] spk_1:
Okay, so I’ll give you the last 30 seconds, uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by what you, what you talk about your mom.

[00:56:13.63] spk_0:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving, when we look at giving in this country, the biggest philanthropist, philanthropist or folks who are giving the most highest percentage of their income incomes are actually poor people. And so I do talk about my mom in the book, um, who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income and but yet she gave to our community and and how to run a ministry of our church to support Children,

[00:56:18.38] spk_1:
the bus ministry,

[00:56:19.36] spk_0:
the bus ministry.

[00:56:20.24] spk_1:
Just gotta, you gotta get the book,

[00:56:21.23] spk_0:
you got to read the bus ministry and so it’s giving of time treasure and talent, not just resources and so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are um you know through love is uh we’re all philanthropists

[00:56:33.73] spk_1:
get the book, go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva, thank you so much.

[00:56:37.97] spk_0:
Thank you for having me on tony real pleasure

[00:57:40.83] spk_1:
next week converting followers to donors with Adora drake, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Mhm Yeah