Nonprofit Radio for February 22, 2021: Listen Closely

My Guest:

Emily Taylor: Listen Closely

If you want to know what folks are thinking, interested in and motivated by, you need to listen to your donors, volunteers, advocates, employees. How do you get to the answers to listen to? Emily Taylor talks. We listen. She’s principal of teenyBIG.

Emily has a free paper for you, “5 Questions to Ask Before Spending More Marketing $$.” It’s here.



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[00:01:45.84] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with hereditary angio oedema if you swelled me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Listen closely. If you want to know what folks are thinking interested in and motivated by, you need to listen to your donors, volunteers, advocates, employees. How do you get to the answers to listen to Emily Taylor talks. We listen. She’s principle of teeny Big Antonis. Take two a webinar or two were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor Simplified. It’s my pleasure to welcome Emily Taylor to non profit radio. She is principal of teeny big coaching nonprofits to meaningful e engage their audiences through human centered design. Her prior experience is in nonprofit management and industrial design. The company is that teeny big dot com and you’ll find Emily on LinkedIn prominently. Emily Taylor. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:47.64] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Happy to be here.

[00:01:49.53] spk_1:
I’m glad. Let me ask you a question and I’ll bet nobody’s ever asked you. Did I pronounce your name correctly?

[00:01:54.24] spk_0:
Yes, yes, I’ve definitely lucked out with the easily pronounceable name.

[00:01:58.94] spk_1:
Excellent with martignetti. You know, uh, nobody ever asks, and they always mispronounced, but I’m always careful. But of course I

[00:02:05.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m married into a more common name. So it made things easy for me. Yeah,

[00:02:20.84] spk_1:
it’s easier to spell. Easier to say now. Industrial design is always interesting to me that I always think of like commercial design, like Cheerios boxes. But But that’s not That’s not strict. That’s not industrial design, really, is it?

[00:02:44.44] spk_0:
It actually is. It’s not the greatest name for a career path, but but it’s designing of products, you know. It’s the people who decide. You know what your cereal box might look like, but also your phone and your car on and, uh, you know, pens and pencils, just everything.

[00:02:46.46] spk_1:
Everything around us has design features to it. And of course, someone else was

[00:03:00.14] spk_0:
inside. You know, someone who decides how they make it, and that’s the engineer. But industrial designer really decides what it looks like what it communicates and how people connect with

[00:03:02.83] spk_1:
it. Okay, well, that I mean, there’s different principles around bookshelves than around iPhones. IPhones A little more complicated, little more complex. What? What did you industrially design?

[00:03:39.14] spk_0:
Most of my career was spent in packaging. So packaging really? And you know it Tze telling you what’s inside of something and you know why you want to pick it up and buy it on DSO Really? I like to think of packaging is an analogy for a lot of stuff. You know how we present ourselves to people have nonprofits present themselves to each other. It’s all a package that someone could gets a sense of before you dive in. Further,

[00:03:43.84] spk_1:
My favorite package packaging comes from Apple computers.

[00:03:48.05] spk_0:
I thought you were going to say that

[00:04:07.74] spk_1:
they’re so elegantly, uh, like the phone. You bet. It’s like on a pillow. I mean, it’s a piece of some material, which is not exactly cardboard, but it looks to me like it’s on a pillow and it’s wrapped in a gentle little plastic sheath. And the the power cable is is perfectly coiled, with a little little tie holding it. I mean, it’s incredible.

[00:04:38.44] spk_0:
Yeah, it is what we call the packaging experience on. And that’s really you know, if you imagine opening that up and having all the pieces jumbled out, you’d be really confused of what to do. And so, um, you know what I’ve been trained to do is think of things as a process. And how do you present information in a staged way So that someone gets it? Someone’s excited about it. Yeah, they can, you know, enjoy the joy. What’s inside?

[00:05:01.94] spk_1:
Okay, excellent. And you’re you’re you’re making a segue. Thio listening. We’ll get there, we’ll get there. Um, but yeah, you You wanna, you know that it’s your first impression. It’s the way the box looks before you even open it before you see just seeing it on a shelf, whatever it is. But then but then you I mean, you’re doing packaging, so there’s also security like you gotta hold the thing together. You don’t want it shaking in the box or whatever it was that you were packaging.

[00:05:16.34] spk_0:
Yeah, you don’t want people stealing it. You don’t want to toe fallout, get too hot while it’s shipping, there’s there’s a lot of different elements thio crunch into that beautiful package. Okay, cool.

[00:05:22.80] spk_1:
And then you move Thio Nonprofits?

[00:05:46.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So I was able to make a lateral shift where I moved, um, took my industrial design knowledge and ran a nonprofit called Design House where we worked in revitalizing local manufacturing, using design, and so we would run workshops on dhe. That was really my first forefront until, like, living in a non profit space versus just volunteering.

[00:05:58.74] spk_1:
Okay. And where’s the interesting listening and engaging with audiences on on that kind of level? Where did that come from? How did you get interested in listening?

[00:06:02.42] spk_0:
You know, I

[00:06:03.81] spk_1:
have developed interest in listening, right? I

[00:06:06.04] spk_0:

[00:06:07.14] spk_1:
what little But let’s problem where six minutes in. Let’s look what?

[00:07:16.94] spk_0:
Let’s stop listening. Um, well, I I grew up is a very kind of shy and awkward child, and and so I found, but I was really interested in people. And so I found that listening to what other people were saying and figuring out how to connect what I wanted to say and due to that really helped me. Um, you know, figure out how I could connect with people. I almost had you know, analyze it versus it, coming naturally, and so that that has allowed me to really listen in a way that I think not everybody does is I’m really looking for the words people are saying and asking them why they think that way s so that I can understand the context of where they’re coming from. And you know, whether it’s a cultural difference or or just, you know, a difference in in personality. It allows me to like bridge that gap and see where people are coming from so that I can then communicate what I want to to them.

[00:07:19.04] spk_1:
Interesting. All right. It’s very It’s very personal for you, too.

[00:07:41.64] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, it’s It took me a while to really, like, make that connection back to That’s where it came from. Um, but it’s fun. I always love just, you know, connecting with people well, in the past, in cabs. Or, you know, at the train station you just start up a conversation and and here where people are coming from, because it’s always a totally different place,

[00:07:49.84] spk_1:
we’ll be in cabs again. We’ll be in. Captain, it’s coming. It’s coming. Where you coming from, where you taking. Used to take cabs and trains. Where are you?

[00:07:59.54] spk_0:
I’m in Chicago. So we’re about 2 ft of snow in. Yeah, Okay,

[00:08:13.74] spk_1:
so let’s Tze talk about listening. So we were kind of already kind of touched about it, but, you know, like, why it’s important. But, you know, we’re talking about user research. Why should we? Why should we spend time on this?

[00:08:49.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s it’s really important. Tons of for profit companies are doing this, you know, everything that comes out of Starbucks And we mentioned cabs with uber like they’re constantly listening to people and getting ideas in front of people and and hearing the reactions to them. And people are just getting used to having these very customized experiences. And it it connects to nonprofits to people have, once you have those expectations, you have those with everything you do. So

[00:08:50.53] spk_1:
s So how are companies doing this give give a couple of examples?

[00:09:30.24] spk_0:
Um, they’re doing focus groups. They’re they’re interviewing people. They’re putting out surveys. They’re also running, testing, you know, they’re getting prototypes out in front of people. Um, they’re having, you know, influencers work with them to design products. It’s all things that concerned a little overwhelming and expensive on DSO. That’s where I think, trying to bring those the most important elements of those two non profit. So it’s not not a huge cost barrier on, you know, and finding ways to listen in the way you can.

[00:09:32.67] spk_1:
Okay, But I interrupted you when you were describing why this is important.

[00:10:52.84] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, well, you know, it’s it’s important because people are are used to having. Like I said, having these, um, being more targeted and not just following whatever a leader says eso it’s is part of human to human centered design. This is part of the experience of being let’s top down, um, or bottom up, how can we, rather than having a leader that has a vision and everyone follows it to be thinking about, um, yeah, gathering the pulse of the people that were working with and using that to ladder up to the decision making. It’s not to say this is a you know, everyone needs toe to make a decision for all but toe have that input. And I think it’s really important this year because I cannot remember a year where it is so unpredictable what people are thinking, Um, you know, how comfortable are they going out? When are they going to get vaccinated? You know, what is their? How their perceptions of organizations changed over the last year based on who connected with them and who didn’t and you know, stories. They read that it just seems even mawr important to see where people stand because this is like a There’s no apples to apples Comparison.

[00:11:43.04] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch, The Chronicle of Philanthropy You wanna be in papers and outlets like that? Turn two has the relationships to get you on those outlets so that when these places air looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turn to turn two calls you because you’re their client. Turn hyphen two dot ceo Now back to listen closely. So we’re interested in how folks are, uh, interacting with our organization or interested in interacting with it. What what, like what’s motivating them? Those kinds of things.

[00:12:23.34] spk_0:
Yeah, I think motivating And then also you know what will fit into people’s lives like you no longer have the, you know, the consistent after school programs or the favorite, uh, you know, venues someone attended to like I remember. You know, it used to be you couldn’t plan things less than a few weeks out on a Friday Saturday night, and now you know, people are home. And so So how do you kind of get a sense of like where, you know, as a non profit where you could now fit into people’s habits as they bring some of those you know, we’re out of home experiences and to their lives.

[00:12:40.94] spk_1:
So when I was introducing the show, I ticked off listening to donors, volunteers, employees Are there other constituencies that we should be listening to?

[00:12:43.04] spk_0:
Let’s see, You said that donors,

[00:12:45.32] spk_1:
donors, volunteers, employees.

[00:13:04.64] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, I tend to look broadly at, and, um and I call audience, you know, basically people who are following you because a lot of those people could become a donor. They could become a volunteer, and they don’t really see themselves as such. Um, eso

[00:13:06.78] spk_1:
it could include, like your social Social Channel followers,

[00:13:10.58] spk_0:
could it? Yeah.

[00:13:11.85] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah. All right.

[00:13:27.84] spk_0:
Yeah. Um, you know, listening, trying to figure out how do you get them to the next stage? How do you turn them into, you know, one of the other categories? Um and, you know, but there’s really no end to who you could listen, Thio. I think that’s just where I focus is general audience

[00:13:50.24] spk_1:
folks who are benefiting from your programs to if you’re if you’re doing any kind of human service work or it could be customers if you’re a museum or a theater, it could be patrons that way. May not be donors, but maybe patrons to your museum Visitors.

[00:14:02.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and I’m going to make it sound too broad. But the real trick is to figure out who you want to listen to so that you can define it for yourself.

[00:14:11.44] spk_1:
Okay? Okay. But But all these folks, I mean, if they’re if they’re interacting with you in a meaningful way, don’t they? Don’t they deserve a voice in your You’re listening campaign?

[00:14:55.54] spk_0:
Definitely. I think where I’m going with is you know, the people who maybe are following you on social media will have different things to say. You know, if this is a museum, um, I have different things to say that people who are coming in to the museum or people who have donated to the museum for a long time. And so it’s helpful when you’re listening to kind of focus who were listening to so we don’t mix up Well, somebody said this and the other you know, these long term donors think this other thing and and you’re mixing up the messaging when, really, um, you know you need to be separating. People are gonna have a different perspective, depending on how well they know your organization.

[00:15:14.84] spk_1:
Yeah, for sure. And how they interact. So that’s what we’re here to talk about it. So we wanna we wanna avoid this. Yeah, You don’t want All the messages are like all the feedback coming a LH coalesced together and aggregated. I mean, maybe for some purposes, you aggregated. But you want to know what your distinct audiences are are saying back to you?

[00:15:18.25] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s about targeting and segmenting eso that. Yeah, when you listen, it doesn’t get confusing.

[00:15:31.74] spk_1:
Yeah, okay, so let’s let’s let’s talk about how to do this for for different audiences. How do you go about thes listening campaigns? I’m calling them listening campaigns. Is that

[00:15:35.37] spk_0:

[00:15:36.29] spk_1:
Can you put your imprimatur on that? Is that all right?

[00:15:38.87] spk_0:
No, I love it.

[00:15:44.34] spk_1:
Listening campaigns. Okay, so if you have different listening campaigns for different audiences, let’s talk about some method methods.

[00:16:43.44] spk_0:
Sure, Sure. And, you know, I always wish there was one that could really kind of all encompass get the right information. But there’s different tactics that kind of our good and bad in various ways. Um, but the one I love the most is to just straight up interview people just talk to them and this, you know, that could be done. You know, obviously, if you have very passionate followers that you can have conversations with them at any time and really talk to them about you know why they’re part of your organization. But you can also just go on toe Facebook or Twitter and just say, Hey, you know someone who comments, would you have 15 minutes to chat with me and get them on the phone? Just do that. You know, a couple people a week, and all of a sudden you’re starting to get a broader sense of what people who aren’t connected to your organization are just lightly connected. Think about you.

[00:17:19.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Excellent. Okay, So I like I like that you say, You know, just comment back to somebody on Facebook. I see you know your comment a lot. Would you like to spend 15 minutes talking to me talking to us about our organ? That you you seem to be very interested in? Um, you know, non profit radio is action steps. So, like, what can we dio eso? Um how about I mean, could you just approach? I guess you could just approach volunteers the same way or, you know, you’re you’re devoting 10 hours a week to our work or whatever it is 10 hours a month. Could you could you sit with us for a phone call and talk about the organ?

[00:18:18.14] spk_0:
Any any interaction is ah, opportunity. I mean, you could even if you have a cocktail hour, just go around and ask the same question Teoh a few different people and and take note of what they say it Z. It’s more of a qualitative kind of feedback. But you get some really great answers. Although I would take a step back and just say it’s good to know what you want to learn. I actually had a a little hosted a conversation earlier this morning about listening to your audience, and it was interesting. I asked the group if you could just reach into your audiences brain and find out anything, you know, what would you want to know? And the question really stumped people. Mhm. Uh huh. And so, you know, it made me realize that, like, as you listen, you also need to know what what you’re looking for.

[00:18:19.37] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s like your goal setting for your listening campaign. Every campaign has to have a goal. This is not a volunteer campaign or fundraising campaign. This is listening campaign. So what would you like to learn?

[00:18:39.74] spk_0:
Yeah, you know, it’s so obvious. But sometimes when we just talked to people were used to having a conversation, not, uh, really digging for information.

[00:18:56.24] spk_1:
So when you’re at that cocktail party, if you’re if you wanna engage folks in your listening campaign surreptitiously, you’re not going to say, you know, let’s have a can of pay. Would you join my listening campaign? You’re just gonna say these kind of pays a good I like the I like the little like the little shrimp tails. So what s all right? So what you want to know is gonna inform what question you’re gonna ask or what questions you’re gonna ask.

[00:19:19.64] spk_0:
Yeah, but it might be, you know, how did you find out about this event? This organization? What? What drew you to To come here, kid. Um, you know, those those kind of questions.

[00:19:27.64] spk_1:
What moves you about our work? What do you know about our work, or what’s your favorite thing that you know about our work or Okay,

[00:19:46.64] spk_0:
Yeah. And sometimes it’s a really great time to ask about. You know what you think of certain words. I’ve you know, it’s kind of taking some notes on some clients that I’m working with that are having issues. And I work with this, uh, organization that’s doing contemporary classical music. And they they

[00:19:46.91] spk_1:
have a really classical what? That’s

[00:20:04.04] spk_0:
modern, modern modern composers doing classical music and they always run into Probably What you’re thinking in your head is like people associate classical music with the big, you know, white wigs and Beethoven

[00:20:06.84] spk_1:
Strauss and right. Yeah.

[00:20:23.94] spk_0:
And so I’m really pushing them to start asking people what does classical mean to them so that they can start to really here where people are coming from and what they need to say. Toe to bridge that gap. Okay.

[00:20:25.44] spk_1:
Okay. How about some other methods? So we got the cocktail party casual. We got the, like, the ocean social listening. What else? What’s more form?

[00:21:57.84] spk_0:
Yeah, you know more. Traditionally, there’s there’s surveys which can be big and laborious, so they could be quick. Just three, You know, two or three questions surveys that you pop into your email. Um, and the thing with surveys is, uh I think really making sure they, um they don’t just They asked the right questions. So, you know, again going back to your goals. You really need to look at that. Um, but a lot of times of surveys, um, they’re not great at predicting people’s behaviors. And so, you know, a survey I’ve run into a lot of nonprofits who will say, you know, we did a survey, and everyone thought, you know, Tuesday at seven was a great time for an event, but no one showed up. Yeah, and and you know, I think the thing there is like, it’s really hard for people to predict. You know how they’re gonna feel on a Tuesday night. You know that it tze different people have, like, a mode for answering surveys. And so really, it’s great to get ideas out in front of people for those surveys. You know, maybe, What do you think? Between these three things, Um, you know, these three messaging campaigns, these three event ideas or even just, um, you know what? Sorry, I just lost my train of thought. My cat came into the room. Um,

[00:21:58.63] spk_1:
okay, we’re very We’re very family friendly. Wonderful. It could be a child in animal. Not only family friendly, family embracing, family embracing. You’re welcome to bring your cat onto this. Excellent.

[00:22:35.24] spk_0:
She might she might just join anyways. Okay, um but having what was going to say is having open ended questions so that you can here some of the things that you might not expect, so a lot of times with surveys will we might make assumptions about things. And when you leave some open ended questions that allows people thio, you know, one participate and feel like they’re engaged, but also opens you up to things you might not have thought to ask about.

[00:22:43.94] spk_1:
Do you have a favorite survey tool? Um, Surveymonkey. Everybody knows story. Monkey. Yeah. You have a favorite monkeys.

[00:22:47.95] spk_0:
Great. I’ve just started thio use type form.

[00:22:51.44] spk_1:
I’m, like form.

[00:23:30.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and and that’s been nice. It’s a little You can actually do some assessments. Uh, but it’s a really It’s more like visually engaging software. Um, so I’ve enjoyed that, and I think things where you can just when you talk about tips like putting things in emails So being able to put the first question of a survey into an email blast so people can just click on that kind of get a sense with the surveys about and that just takes, um, shoots him right into the survey versus click on this link to take the survey and then just sort of like one extra step. Okay,

[00:23:34.04] spk_1:
Do you have ah preferred length? You said they could be super long or it could be very short. I mean, I’ve I’ve had folks on saying, you know, no more than five questions or people start to fade out after so many questions. What’s your advice?

[00:24:16.44] spk_0:
Well, I I the big lengthy ones. Those are like like marketing surveys that some organizations do every couple of years. That’s that’s really not by focus. I like, Yeah, I mean, it’s especially right now. People are changing their mindsets month, a month, the quarter to quarter. And so the more the shorter you could make things and the more focused the better. So I’d rather see people you know asked 3 to 5 questions a month or every other month than 25 question survey each year,

[00:25:30.14] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’ve Got a webinar for you. Five Planned giving websites that set the standard. It’s on February 25th, 3 p.m. Eastern time. It’s a romp. It’s a quick shot. I’m gonna take a romp through five plan giving websites in 45 minutes. Show you what I love about them. Show you what not to do that I don’t think is so good on them. And take your questions. Of course. Always time Q. And a quick shot 45 minutes, February 25th at 3 p.m. Eastern time, and you register for this esteemed webinar at PG Websites PG websites that is Tony’s take two. Let us return to listen closely with Emily Taylor. Do you have? Ah, this is different. Unrelated. But where my mind is thinking. So I’m gonna ask you Do you have opinion? An opinion on political polling? Like the accuracy of polling. Do you consider that within your I know you don’t do that work.

[00:25:33.37] spk_0:
Obviously you

[00:25:34.49] spk_1:
consider that within your belly. Wick toe comment on.

[00:26:36.04] spk_0:
I’ve been really fascinated by this. And this is where I go back to, like, whatever you do a survey you always have toe question what people really are, You know, the action versus what they’re predicting. Ah, nde. We’ve seen that with the last two elections of poll numbers just being way off. And so that’s that’s the sense that I get is, um that is a result of, you know, asking people toe fill in boxes versus trying to get to what they how they really feel about things. Um, you know, there’s there’s definitely a I think with surveys we can put on a we don’t want to be mean to this non profit hat or, you know, with political things like we don’t I don’t You know, I don’t quite understand. Can’t quite articulate how I feel. But I I’m just gonna answer this because this feels like the safe thing to Dio. And so those kind of answers don’t help us. Yeah, right.

[00:26:45.54] spk_1:
They’re misleading. Uh, maybe. Maybe not intentionally Or maybe in time, But anyway, they’re not helpful. Leaving your right. Leave it leave. It is not helpful. E want to attribute bad motivations to folks. I don’t want to do that.

[00:26:50.04] spk_0:
No. Like I said, sometimes it’s It’s because you know you don’t wanna be means it’s a It’s a good thing, but it doesn’t help.

[00:26:57.34] spk_1:
How about focus groups? Are there are people doing those online? I mean, it’s certainly eminently doable, are they? Are they valuable? Our folks are people participating.

[00:27:17.04] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve definitely There’s been focus groups happening over the last year. I find them. You know, there’s a lot to be careful with with focus groups because there are group dynamics that you need to be aware of. You need to be

[00:27:28.44] spk_1:
a pro at facilitating those, right? Yes. Yeah. You don’t wanna go off as an amateur trying it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Because you’re asking for people’s honest opinions and

[00:27:40.64] spk_0:
yeah, and it’s very hard for people. You don’t want to talk about some of those being nice elements. That is amplified when you have a few strangers in a room.

[00:27:48.14] spk_1:
Yeah, right. Yeah. I don’t want to say anything controversial. I don’t want anybody feeling. Yeah, but then you’re not getting truthful answers, right? So you need all right, You need a pro if you’re gonna do the actual focus groups, right? Okay. Do you facilitate those? Do you facilitate focus groups?

[00:28:04.84] spk_0:
Um, I do not. Usually there’s a few people I work with that that have done them, or, um, but, like I said, you know, prefer being able Thio digging a little deeper with people

[00:28:16.34] spk_1:
you don’t have that lions lions, then of focus groups. And yeah,

[00:28:40.34] spk_0:
well, I’ve definitely done them in. You know, in the past industrial design world, I’ve watched a lot of focus groups, so e think I I understand how complicated they are. And it’s when you get into, um, nonprofits that air so emotionally entangled in our heads that I don’t find them as is practical.

[00:28:43.24] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So don’t try this at home. Or maybe you don’t need it.

[00:28:47.52] spk_0:
Just just have a good Yeah.

[00:28:49.25] spk_1:
Alright. Another You got another method?

[00:29:20.34] spk_0:
Um, well, another, you know, we can also get into more data driven methods, which is like, a b testing or doing, you know, sending out several different options. And and so this is not listening in the sense that you people are voicing things back, but you’re seeing what decisions they make your observing their behavior. And so I find observing as another type of listening, like,

[00:29:21.18] spk_1:
what are some examples of things you might A B test?

[00:30:13.34] spk_0:
Um, you could a b test a new message you wanted to use to promote a program or or to encourage people to donate. Um, you know, the trick is to always have an action that you want people to take eso You could talk about an event in two different ways. Send that out and see you know what? What? Got people to, you know, come to the event or click for more information? Um, whatever it might be. But that’s those air. Really. They’re harder because again, you don’t get that. Why? But you do. You do get the behavior, which, as I mentioned before in the survey’s can sometimes, um, not come through because, yeah, it’s not someone’s riel reaction. Where reaction.

[00:30:19.54] spk_1:
You’re getting reaction you’re getting You’re getting data. Um, Anything else? Quantitative. You like to quantitative?

[00:30:22.97] spk_0:
Yeah. I, uh I mentioned observing Don’t

[00:30:26.54] spk_1:
hold out on non profit radio listeners. Now, keep anything into my

[00:30:30.51] spk_0:
bag of listening trip.

[00:30:31.84] spk_1:
Nothing. Nothing at the bottom of the bag.

[00:30:57.34] spk_0:
Well, this one is so observing, I think can also happen. Um, it’s a little harder right now, since a lot of people are socially distanced, but observing people’s behaviors, Um, and this could be, you know, watching people and an event. How many people like, if you have different tables where they’re going, you know, keeping track of of some of those things. Are they paying attention to different speakers

[00:31:01.91] spk_1:
when you’re CEO gets up? Does everyone go to the bar or the bathroom? That’s a bad sign.

[00:31:08.04] spk_0:
Yeah, You just don’t know what it means. You know, I always think

[00:31:13.59] spk_1:
they don’t wanna listen. Uh, going to the bar to drink. When? When? The CEO of the bathroom. They probably don’t wanna hear the CEO. So that’s bad.

[00:31:41.14] spk_0:
Well, I always think of the example of, you know, and a friend to other friend gave a speech at an event and came up to her afterwards and was like, What? Why did you hate my speech? What was wrong? And she really She had some sour candy in her mouth the whole time. And so she was kind of like like making these

[00:31:42.47] spk_1:
grimacing, disapproving

[00:31:46.94] spk_0:
faces unintentionally. And so this is where you don’t want to make those assumptions eso we can observe, and that will help

[00:31:53.82] spk_1:
us. I mean, there might be an alternative. Might be an alternative explanation for everybody going to the bathroom when you maybe you had too much

[00:31:59.82] spk_0:
punch. Maybe what? Maybe you serve too much punch.

[00:32:13.74] spk_1:
Punch, punch. All right, All right. So maybe it’s the timing. Okay. Um Alright, so that’s interesting. Yes. Observing dynamics in a room where people where people huddling. What? What? What might you learn from things like from that? Those kinds of observations when we get back to in life are really ever personal. Presidents? What might you What might you pick up or what have you seen? That’s interesting. Um

[00:32:58.54] spk_0:
uh, let’s see. I mean, you can learn like I think of an example like at a museum. You know, where are people stopping and taking the most pictures might learn. Like what is, um, what? Elements of a space are engaging to people and that could then lead you to ask more questions about why that seem more interesting to people. So So sometimes observation helps us come up with more questions than answers, but very, very helpful ones.

[00:33:01.64] spk_1:
Yeah, because those questions then could become goals for your the next phase of your listening campaign.

[00:33:25.14] spk_0:
Yeah, well, and I think, you know, to the museum example, someone might not realize they were, you know, idling in a in a certain room and taking more pictures if you would ask them in a survey or even in an interview. But if you observe them doing that, then they have to kind of think a little bit more about why they why that appealed to them?

[00:33:42.14] spk_1:
Well, that’s it. Like they’re hanging out in the French nudes room. Of course, they’re all going to say, Well, I didn’t realize I didn’t I didn’t know I was there, that really 25 minutes. I don’t make any assumptions about that Yeah, I thought I breezed right through that. The newsroom. Alright. Yeah, e

[00:35:09.14] spk_0:
Just saying Oh, yeah, Are sometimes our minds remember different behaviors than than what we actually did. Yeah, sure. Let’s see if I could think of other ones. Um, I think that that kind of covers I was I was gonna add toe observation is, um and this is less like little observation, but seeing what? What else? People do. Um, and so this could be understanding. Knew where? Where do your where’s your audience shop? What what other things are they doing with their time? Um and so this It’s not really a different method. You might still need to do a survey or interview around this, but but to understand, um, you know those air behaviors that we can then use to work with our programs on dso understanding that people, you know, maybe are more organic or vegan shoppers might then lead us to think more about the food we serve at an event, um, or or how you’re appealing your, um, your mission to people. Especially like a newer There were people. There might be some connection you can make with other habits and behaviors that they have

[00:35:11.05] spk_1:
or knowing maybe what other causes folks give to

[00:35:32.44] spk_0:
exactly. Yeah, um, you know, And knowing that someone shops set eco friendly stores might than, you know, make them more connected to a sustainable part of your organization. And, you know, knowing that you you have sustainable practices could be more appealing to them.

[00:36:28.63] spk_1:
Right? Right. You want to share that? Okay, time for our last break. Quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our executive team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising toward their goals. DOT drives has allowed us to take those key relationships and bring them to a deeper level. End quote. That’s Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is prospect to donor simplified. Get the free demo for listeners. Also a free month. It’s all on the listener landing page at we’ve got but loads more time for Listen closely, and I hope that’s what you’re doing. How did you get the company named teeny big?

[00:37:00.93] spk_0:
I gave myself a small window. Thio come up with a name and, um and what I really liked about it is I love zooming in and out on things. And so the big picture is very fascinating to me, but then to zoom in on these little details that we might observe on doing back out to see what we can broadly learn from those, Um, that was that really drew me to to the name.

[00:37:10.63] spk_1:
Okay, Now what? I’m this interesting s So why did you give yourself a time frame for choosing a name? Did you feel like you could go on forever if you didn’t? Yeah.

[00:37:27.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Coming from the design world, I knew I could spend endless amounts of time. And so, yeah, that was an entrepreneur practice I learned of. Give yourself 45 minutes for an idea and just come up with as much as you can. Then, uh, is that

[00:37:31.43] spk_1:
one? You got a company name in 45 minutes? Mhm.

[00:37:33.13] spk_0:
That’s all right. And then 14 minutes for the logo. Yeah. Kept it moving.

[00:37:41.63] spk_1:
Yeah, for a clever name. Okay. Interesting. Very. That was a very productive 45 minutes. Give.

[00:37:43.74] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. When you give yourself constraints, sometimes you can get a little more creative.

[00:38:13.32] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s for the those of us who work in the last minute. You feel that pressure now? I’m not saying, you know, last but it. But it’s time pressure. You know, your do other things until you know that you’re at the point where you absolutely have to focus on something else. And then you do. I mean, it’s amazing. You know how I can squander three hours and it’s amazing what I could do in 25 minutes. Uh

[00:38:20.72] spk_0:
huh. Yeah, that’s a part of the brain I’ve not quite understood, but it’s It definitely forces some focus. That helps. Yeah,

[00:38:34.72] spk_1:
it’s valuable. It helps. May not that I’m squandering 7/8 of my day, and then I’m only working half hour a day. But but the time pressure of ah, of an imminent deadline helps me.

[00:38:41.72] spk_0:
Yeah, sometimes you have to force it in yourself. I’d like to think about really didn’t like the names. I could just give myself another 45 minutes. But all right,

[00:38:42.21] spk_1:
you’re cheating. Then you’re gonna cheat yourself. I know, I know. Not setting the boundaries. You’re not supposed to abandon your boundaries. Emily, you’re supposed to stay. It was there was

[00:38:51.38] spk_0:
this part of my brain was telling myself that. And then the other part was like, Wait,

[00:38:57.92] spk_1:
maybe if I need more time. All right. Um, what else? Where else do radio? Where else do we go from here? Where do you wanna talk about?

[00:41:06.01] spk_0:
Let’s see, One of the things I love to talk about that I think is not happening very much in the nonprofit world is prototyping and testing on dso. I mentioned this a little bit in the ways toe. Listen, um and this kind of gets into again, like a lot of listening, and it’s a, you know, professional listening, not just conversation is trying Thio get answers to these questions that people aren’t always able to articulate. And so when we can get ideas in front of people that allows them to react. So, you know, you could you might be able to say, Oh, what would get you to come to this next event? You want pizza or free wine or, you know, you might be ableto like Sorry. I phrase it the wrong way. You might ask somebody that and they might say The obvious answer is like pizza and wine or or a discount. Um, I feel like that’s sort of the ultimate, um, answer to a lot of non profit questions when when they do surveys is people like Oh, yeah, I would come if I just had a discount or if there’s a free ticket and and yeah, I like the amount of non profits I hear that. Say, they gave them the discount and they didn’t come, Um, And so if instead we get ideas in front of people and say, You know, what if we had a Q and A at the end, or what if we, um, you know, told you some really interesting stories about this artist or composer? Um, you know, and maybe share some of those tidbits so they would understand what that actually meant. Um, you can start to paint a picture that they could get excited about, and so maybe it isn’t about the discount or the free thing, but it’s about the the interesting value that they would get out of it. Um, and they’re able to react to that rather than having to come up with the idea of themselves

[00:41:08.19] spk_1:
can give another example. It feels like we’re talking in the you’re talking in the abstract. Can we?

[00:41:13.05] spk_0:

[00:41:14.51] spk_1:
Can come An example for us. Toe ground. This?

[00:41:36.41] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, let me think of a good one. So let’s see, with, uh, there was an organization that they were really having our arts organization, that they discovered that people were viewing them mawr as a entertainment venue. So people were coming and supporting them through ticket sales, but they weren’t moving towards donations And really seeing this organization

[00:41:45.71] spk_1:
as Yeah,

[00:43:11.70] spk_0:
yeah, and so they’re kind of struggling in this barrier. And so what we did is we actually prototypes, um, three statements that they could say ahead of their programming to remind people about the broader work that they were doing what happens, you know, when they left the building and on DWI could hit different, you know, emotional touch points. You know, one was really about the big picture of how this organization fit into the world. One gave us a practical numbers around the impact they were making. I think one told a good story about the history of the organization and So those were prototypes. Those were three different ways they could talk to people about why their organization is more than just entertainment on DSO. Then they could take those those concepts and whether it was in a survey and have people kind of choose which motivated the most. Or through an interview where they can literally just get, you know, ask people what they thought about those different. You know, those different statements and use that to then build a really powerful statement that when they did actually go, so have the next event. They had the confidence that that would make an impact. Okay,

[00:43:33.50] spk_1:
Okay. Helpful. Thank you. All right. Um, any anything we should be cautious of when we’re having doing this work? Maybe whether it’s casual at the over the counter pay table at an event or whether it’s more formal. Any lessons learned that we should avoid?

[00:44:00.29] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve been going back thio some of things I’ve said before about people don’t always know what will motivate them. Um, and you know, they don’t always know what they’re the kind of predict their behaviors in a certain situation. And so I’ve definitely learned to live with a certain sense of, uh, uncertainty,

[00:44:01.45] spk_1:
A certain sense of uncertainty, a

[00:45:23.19] spk_0:
certain sense of yeah, helpful. Um, you know, listening is a process, and so it’s not as concrete as, um, you know, maybe some some more quantitative data points, but it is. It’s something you should always be doing. But always questioning on dhe. This kind of goes back to making, making assumptions about people you want to make sure that we’re not taking people literally, um, that that were, you know, uh, that we’re trying to figure out the motivations behind them. The, um you know, not just the functional touchpoints. So maybe, are they attending an event? Um, would they want to attend event, But also the why behind it? You know what really draws them to your organization? What caught their eye about that event? Um, and using that to then, you know, kind of taking those bits and pieces and building a story about them slowly so that we’re not. So I feel like I’m kind of getting in a little bit of a word. Jumble. Right. Okay.

[00:45:32.19] spk_1:
Well, you first of all, for functional touchpoints almost put you in jargon jail. I

[00:45:32.30] spk_0:
know. I

[00:45:32.73] spk_1:
know. Okay? Yeah.

[00:45:52.49] spk_0:
Yeah. Tony and I were just talking about jargon on LinkedIn. So, Z, uh, my watch out is to toe always sort of live in this hypothesis with listening on dso I think of. I think of it as, like a scientist.

[00:45:56.65] spk_1:
Okay, what’s the What’s the hypothesis? Oh, that you have a hypothesis going in.

[00:46:50.38] spk_0:
Well, that’s so a scientist is, um, you know, studying rocks, and they might find certain information about those rocks, but they always always have to keep questioning. Is that true? Is that true? Is that you know, is that really, um, the truth? And so I think with listening, it’s the same thing. People are complicated and so we can keep listening and gathering mawr information. Um, but we also have to know that it’s not solid ground that we’re standing on it. Z, it’s something that my ebb and flow throughout. Okay, you know, a ZX time moves on, and so it’s You have to live with some uncertainty. I e I guess what I’m saying is that if you you know, you don’t just do a survey and wipe your hands and think you have all the answers.

[00:47:06.08] spk_1:
Understand? Okay, right. You may need to have You may very well need to probe further. Asked what? Little asking One more question. Ah, dive deeper Thio to get to the rial. Yeah, Motivations person people really motivations what really moves them?

[00:47:25.78] spk_0:
Yeah. And you know, like this year as a ZX vaccinations happened, Those the ideas that people said in March might not be the same as in September. Eso you just have to live with some of that that uncertainty,

[00:47:27.28] spk_1:
okay, but it’s still worth proving its worth. Oh, yeah. You’re listening campaigns, Of course.

[00:47:35.98] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s better than saying the wrong the wrong thing. All

[00:47:36.78] spk_1:
right, we’re gonna leave it there. Okay?

[00:47:38.78] spk_0:
Okay. All right.

[00:47:51.38] spk_1:
Emily Taylor. Principle of teeny big at teeny big dot com, which was derived in 45 minutes or or less. Um, thank you very much, Emily. Thanks for sharing.

[00:47:53.98] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thanks for having me.

[00:48:00.37] spk_1:
I did pronounce your name. Right? Right. Emily, You okay? Okay. No more shy and awkward either. Well, you’re over that. Your china smart assed, uh, non profit radio. You are. Thank you very much.

[00:48:07.77] spk_0:
Thank you.

[00:48:57.67] spk_1:
Next week, strategic execution you know, strategic planning Now what if you missed any part of this week’s show? I beseech you, Find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives prospect to donor Simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for February 15, 2021: Adversaries Into Allies

My Guest:

Leah Garcés: Adversaries Into Allies

It can be advantageous to work with people and causes on the other side. Leah Garcés shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book, “Grilled: Turning Adversaries into Allies to Change the Chicken Industry.” She’s also president of Mercy For Animals.

Just last week, she and Mercy For Animals enjoyed terrific coverage of their cause in a Nicholas Kristof editorial in The New York Times. So I decided its time for a replay. This originally aired on 10/25/19.



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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:03.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobin Yuria if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Adversaries in tow allies it could be advantageous toe work with people and causes. On the other side, Leah, Gar says, shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book Grilled. Turning Adversaries Into Allies to Change the chicken Industry. She’s also president of Mercy for Animals. Just last week, she and Mercy for Animals enjoyed terrific coverage of their cause in a Nicholas Kristof editorial in The New York Times. So I decided it’s time for a replay. This originally aired on October 25th 2019. I’m tony Steak to a webinar for you, sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant free demo and a free month. Here is adversaries into allies. I’m very pleased to welcome Leah, Gar says to the studio. She has been fighting for better food and farming systems for nearly 20 years. As a leader in the animal protection movement, she oversaw international campaigns in 14 countries at the World Society for the Protection of Animals and launched compassion in world farming in the U. S. She’s been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, Buzzfeed, Vice and other media. She’s at Leah L E A H underscore compassion. And the orig is at mercy for animals and mercy for animals dot or ge. Welcome to the studio.

[00:02:19.28] spk_0:
I’m so glad to be here.

[00:02:20.99] spk_1:
Thank you. Thanks for coming up from Georgia. Where that’s where you started. The, um, compassion

[00:02:27.77] spk_0:
in world farming. That’s right.

[00:02:28.91] spk_1:
Us, right? Yeah. And how many years ago was that?

[00:02:32.05] spk_0:
That was about eight or nine years ago now,

[00:02:34.52] spk_1:
Okay. And you’ve been president of mercy for animals a little over a year, just over a year. Congratulations

[00:02:41.40] spk_0:
on your anniversary. Yeah,

[00:02:45.04] spk_1:
um, I love congratulations on the book. It’s just it’s just out, right.

[00:02:48.59] spk_0:
It came out September 3rd just right about that. Okay,

[00:03:00.44] spk_1:
So, six weeks, you got a little six weeks trying to get absolutely Congratulations. Thank you. Um, you grew up in Florida

[00:03:03.09] spk_0:
and you

[00:03:03.64] spk_1:
had you had a lot of creatures, beautiful animals around. You talk a little about growing up there with a canal in your backyard and And how that inspired your life work?

[00:04:38.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I had the absolute great privilege of growing up in the swamps of Florida. Many people wouldn’t think that’s a privilege, but I dio it’s a swamp on backed up to the state park. And there was a ton of wildlife when I would look out of my glass sliding door. It was like, almost like a prehistoric looking place. So there were ducks and alligators and otters and herons and white IBIs and alters that Florida has to offer. But to me, the ones that stole my heart with the ducks and my mother had these prized flower beds. These in patients that when I was little, would come up to my chest, but and no one was allowed to touch these flowers. These were like off limits. Don’t play there or you’re dead except the mother ducks. They were the only ones, and they would waddle up when they were ready to lay their eggs and they would pat down and fix the and arrange the flowers into a nest like shape and lay their eggs. And my brother, sister and I were able to watch this all unfold from inside of our screen in Porch and we would lay on our bellies, and right on the other side was all of this unfolding, and eventually they would hatch and we would see everything. All of the dramas and the joys and the ups and downs of duck life, right? And this, really. I mean, in my mind, growing up, there was no difference between these ducks and the dogs and cats that share our homes. They had the same joys and fears, and I didn’t think anything of them needing protection. I thought, Absolutely, they need protection. They deserve to have life worth a life worth living. And I extended that out to chickens to cows. Two pigs. I became vegetarian when I was about 15 years old. After seeing a pita esque kind of documentary about meat where your meat comes from, I studied zoology. I just really wanted to help animals in particular. Farmed animals have a good life.

[00:05:58.34] spk_1:
Um, since you alluded to ah video. The pita asked video that moved your inspiration. Um, I was going to save it for later. But for listeners who eat meat, the mercy for Animals website has I’m not even gonna say disturbing, gut wrenching, gut wrenching videos on cows, pigs, fish, chicken, turkey’s, um, it’s, uh yeah, they’re beyond disturbing. But you need to know. I think e think we all need to know what is going on in our in our food supply. Basically, our food chain.

[00:06:00.57] spk_0:
Yeah, I think one of the things that mercy for animals is most known for is our undercover investigations. So, unfortunately, unlike tomatoes or onions, you can’t see very readily where three animals that end up on our plate are being raised, and that’s kept behind closed doors on purpose. So for that reason, we have to send in undercover investigators to take footage of the normal day to day practice is the factory farming, and as an organization, we’ve produced over 70 investigations and you can find them on our website on. They really show unfortunately, very normal things that happen every day. But they’re horrible. They’re horrible, their gut wrenching. As you said, they’re very difficult to watch, but I think it’s important. And our job is to bear witness to that and to bring that darkness out into the light so that people could be aware and make choices. The match, their values.

[00:07:14.24] spk_1:
So let’s let’s bring it to the chickens that are the the story of the entire book on dhe e think for for our purposes. You’re sort of a vehicle because we want to talk about engaging with your adversaries. And you have some great stories in the book. Um, but let’s so why don’t you have, like, two minutes or so before our first break? Why don’t you set the stage for us about, uh, chicken farming?

[00:07:23.94] spk_0:
So 90% of all farmed animals are the chickens raised for meat, so that’s a bit of a shocking figure that includes that. So there’s nine billion that air raised just in this country. That’s just meat chickens, excluding all other farmed animals and the majority of those, like 99.8% or raised behind closed doors, they are stuffed wall to wall in a darkened warehouse. Uh, their litter is never changed. The error is ammonia laden dust Laden. But the worst thing happening to these chickens is how fast they’re made to grow through selective breeding. So they grow incredibly fast, incredibly large, their slaughtered in only 40 days of age, though their babies still. But they’re they’re obese at this stage because of the preference for the large breast meat. And they’re kind of cages, their genetics. They grow so big, so fast, they collapsed under their own weight. Their heart and lungs can’t keep up with the metabolic demand for that fast growth, and they often have heart attacks and problems. So even if the birds go beyond this 40 days, most of them would die of a heart attack before a year of age. So it’s a very cruel and unnatural process and really constitutes one of the largest causes of suffering on the planet.

[00:10:07.84] spk_1:
You make the point that if humans grew as fast as the chickens are because of this breeding, we would be £600 by. I think H two is that will be six. If we grew at the same rate £600 by age two. All right, Okay, so that’s our That’s the setting. That’s what Leah was out to change. And that’s what the book is all about. That change that that change process. Um, so when we come back, we’ll dive in further. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want coverage like mercy for Animals got in The New York Times last week? Turn two has relationships with outlets like the Times, including the times when the papers were looking for experts. They call Turn to turn two calls you turn hyphen two dot ceo Now back to adversaries into allies You wanted to engage. You needed to engage with the other side. And listen, you just gotta buy the damn book because you know, we, as I always say, with authors, we cannot fill. We can’t tell the whole story There it’s there a poignant stories that we may not get to. Um, there’s great anecdotes. There’s funny moments. There’s very touching and tender moments. Eso just get the book. You know, we’ll do the best we can in an hour. Thank you. Absolutely. Craig Watts. Uh, Craig is a farmer. We call the farm with chicken. Right. Chicken farmers. Yeah, we’ll make sure I’m doing it right. Okay. Um mhm. I wanted to do more than just say Why? Why did he Why? Why was he willing to meet with you?

[00:10:16.54] spk_0:
That is a great question. Um, so let me back up a little and say that at the time I met Craig Watts, I was desperate. So I had been, as I just revealed said earlier, had, you know, it’s very difficult to know what’s going on inside of a chicken factory farm. And I have been trying to get footage from inside of one.

[00:10:36.42] spk_1:
Yeah, let me just say what states have done to prevent, uh, investigative reports like mercy for animals. Instead of improving conditions for the chickens, they enact laws that prevent investigators and even employees from shooting video, whether it’s explicit or undercover. Right? So they another method of hiding the Legislature’s a lot of state legislatures air involved. Unfortunately, unfortunately, including in my state, North Carolina, I noticed you cite North Carolina is one of the states. So rather than improve the production of the lives of the of the chickens, um, they just hide the hide the facts, but

[00:11:15.37] spk_0:
yeah, Okay, Right. It’s an AG gag law, and North Carolina has one and but it didn’t have one. When I started working there, it got one just after I worked

[00:11:24.54] spk_1:
there from North

[00:13:57.84] spk_0:
Carolina. That’s right, and I had asked companies to give me tours. I had knocked on doors. Nobody would let me. So when a journalist introduced me to Craig Watts, I had to say Yes. I was scared out of my mind as a vegan animal rights activist to go meet with a chicken factory farmer in the poorest county of rural North Carolina. But I thought I got to go. So packed my bags with filmmaker named Reagan. Hodge, headed to Hiss Place about five hours from Atlanta, did not know what I was getting into. I remember telling my husband like, Here’s the address. Look for me buried in the chicken litter. If I don’t come back, I might be rotting away their compost fast. So be quick. And when I showed up, you know, he let me in the door and in we went and I spent the first five hours with the question You just asked me in my head as he was telling me his story, like, Why is he talking to me? Why in the world because in my mind, in my paradigm, my framework, he was just an evil person that did this horrible thing to chickens. And up until that point in my career, I had been angry at him, blamed him. I even had wished people like him ill. I hoped he lost his job. You know, I hoped he was unemployed, so I thought in my head this was some kind of ambush, you know? But I had to do it anyway, because I was desperate to get footage, and I kind of thought I was gonna go there, get footage and get the hell out of there and, like, never come back. But as I sat there listening to Hiss story, that fear was totally replaced by feeling ashamed that I had never thought truly about him as a human being and why he would have made the choices correct. And I you know, after he told me his story, I knew why he you know, he was desperate to. He wanted out and he was trapped. And to explain that you know, Craig, when he was in his early twenties, he wanted to stay on the land in a poor county in North Carolina, and there were no other options at the time, so tobacco had fallen out. There’s no other jobs. So when the chicken industry came to town and said, If you take out a quarter of a million dollar loan, which will arrange for you, you could be your own business man, you can stay on the land that’s five generations has been passed down and you just have to raise chickens for us, will drop them off and then we’ll pick them up at the end. And every time we do that, we’ll give you a paycheck and at first it works really well. So he would raise the chickens and they would take them and they get a pay check and you pay off that quarter of a million dollars like a mortgage but its factory farming. So after a while, the chicken started to get sick and they they died and you don’t get paid for dead birds.

[00:14:14.46] spk_1:
You make the point that allow the feed and all the time that went into those. But I guess primarily it’s feed that goes into the dead birds. That’s all some cost. That’s all lost cost for

[00:14:23.16] spk_0:
the propane. Electricity like their heating, the houses, they’re, you know, they’re paying for the loan itself. The structure is the loan. There’s a lot of Bill. So the idea is he just should have a little bit toe feed his family at the end. But it started to not look that way.

[00:14:38.55] spk_1:
And he got toe. He paid off his loan and then within, like, a year and a half or two years, the producer he was produced. It was he was he with producer do. He was, uh, insisted on upgrades to the to the to the houses. They call them houses. That’s that’s a euphemism. They’re They’re these gross. I don’t know. Yeah, they’re They’re metal. They’re bigger than sheds. They’re huge. They’re like, aren’t they 100

[00:15:02.41] spk_0:

[00:15:03.20] spk_1:
football field? And then, like, 40 yards wide, 40 40 ft wide, 40 ft. Thank you. Um, anyway, so then Purdue insists on upgrades, So he had to take out another loan and he’s back where he had been for the 12 or 15 years paying off a new mortgage on the on the upgrades s

[00:15:19.02] spk_0:
Oh, yeah,

[00:15:20.36] spk_1:
and that’s a That’s a subtext to the in the book is the cycle that the the few chicken producers hold the way that they hold the farmers captive. Uh,

[00:15:31.83] spk_0:
they’re indentured servant.

[00:15:53.04] spk_1:
Analogous to the way the farmers were holding the chickens. Uh, captive. Really? There are captive. Another thing about the chickens. I just, uh, because they’re because they’re in their own feces and it’s zip 30,000 of them in each again house each Each one of these large houses. Um, and they can’t walk like like you were saying, Uh, they flap their wings to try to move, but they for a lot of them, it’s hard to get to the food or the water. And they’re they’re festering in this in this feces concrete floor. And they get these sores on their on their bottoms, right? And on their bellies, is it? And And they end up with these open wound source because they’re laying in feces for 40. Is it 40 days, 40 days, 47?

[00:16:17.26] spk_0:
Yeah, in the in the beginning, they will be smaller, and they’re more mobile. But as they get into the the last half of that growth period, they find it very hard to move and what happens is because they’re all squashed together for one of the moves. It’s like shift shift, shift. Imagine

[00:16:32.15] spk_1:
you see this wave

[00:16:33.09] spk_0:
if Ugo Ugo and so it’s this constant kind of slight shifting happening in the flock. But what’s happening is there undersides are rubbing against ah, hot letter. Now the litter itself is composting all the time, so it

[00:16:45.24] spk_1:
one point

[00:16:45.67] spk_0:
e put a thermometer into the litter. At one point it was 87 degrees. So they’re sitting on hot litter, constantly rubbing. And so at one point I picked up one of the chickens and this would be the photo that would end up in The New York Times, and I was picked it up and you could see her underbelly was red and roll and it was like a bed sore, you know, and that’s where a lot of infection can come in. But it’s It was warm and mushy. It was horrific.

[00:17:16.76] spk_1:
Alright, Um, that tze Chapter five is When we find that out, it’s called crossing Enemy Lines. When you do a video, your first video and you say you’re knocked over, your eyes were watering your coughing. You were concerned about pulmonary problems and you didn’t have to make some

[00:17:32.95] spk_0:
antibiotics. I had to take a steroid to clear my lungs because I spent a lot of time filming and in the houses on working with Reagan to film. And I already had had an infection of some kind, you know, just like your winter cough kind of thing. And it got horrific. We had kept taking turning off the camera, and

[00:17:50.70] spk_1:
you said you were embarrassed by how

[00:17:51.78] spk_0:
much you were called. It was horrible. And But then I kept thinking, First of all, this is the chickens entire life. That is the only thing they ever experienced in here. And I kept thinking back to my ducks like they’re they’re lovely life out in the, you know, in the river and the swamps. And then, by comparison, these very similar animals are living in ammonia laden, dust laden hot, you know, environments that air just unsuitable for any Centeon being.

[00:18:26.44] spk_1:
So Craig wants you to see this on Dhe. I think one of the it’s one of the things that comes through is you know how to build bridges to adversaries is is trust. He learns that he can trust you. You you just articulated how you started to trust him, and he feels comfortable opening up. But after many hours, it’s not like he brings you on and then says, Let’s let’s start filming You talk to him for a long time.

[00:18:49.07] spk_0:
Well, really, it was over a couple of months and and well, even we filmed, but there was no, you know, we started filming. We came back a second time. We came back a 3rd 4th just to learn and be side by side with him to understand what his job was like. What was his day to day like and learn from him what the real problems were of the chicken industry. And truly, it wasn’t until, you know, a couple of months after meeting in person that we decided to release the film. And that was the big trust moment because there was so much risk involved with that

[00:19:29.57] spk_1:
risk for him. Because as well you see in the book, the producers, uh, have have their own policies. If if the state doesn’t have a law law, the producers have their own policies,

[00:19:54.34] spk_0:
right? So in the case of Craig, the big risk for him was losing payment, you know, losing income. And he was also so if he lost, if they decided to cancel his contract, he had no way to pay off that giant mortgage. And then the other thing is his neighbors, you know, he was afraid of being isolated. Everyone around him is growing chickens. If he goes and outs the one source of income in his county, that’s scary. That’s a brave thing to Dio. And you

[00:19:57.82] spk_1:
were under some attack two

[00:19:59.31] spk_0:
Oh yeah,

[00:20:00.14] spk_1:
from you know, a fellow activists, Why why are you partnering? Why are you even talking to these people?

[00:20:05.58] spk_0:
They really thought I had kind of romanticized this idea of the struggling farmer. Ah, lot of activist kind of thought I had really been drawn in by this idea like romanticize the rural struggle. And I just I just had to put that to one side. And I knew what I knew from talking to this human being and really seeing firsthand and hearing firsthand his struggle.

[00:20:47.04] spk_1:
So trust. I think trust is ah key. Take away for us and poignant that toward the end of the book. Jim Perdue who? Purdue Craig Craig’s Craig’s producer, uh, talks about trust, and he says that it’s what it’s what we’ll get adversarial parties through the rough spots. Basically, I’m paraphrasing, but Jim Perdue later in the book makes the point that the value of trust, which I felt with the two of you Craig early on in the book

[00:20:59.94] spk_0:
yeah, it’s all about trust. And, um, you know, Craig and I came out with a video and it had a million views in 24 hours. It was insane. We never expected some that kind of impact. And it was a roller coaster for six months after that, and and Perdue who we were exposing as not being honest with customers, they had a label that said humanely raised. And we were saying, This is not what customers think of when they see those words. We exposed that and I think the

[00:21:29.24] spk_1:
very good story of you in the book. By what We can’t go into it. But you talking to the butcher in a grocery store, quizzing humanely raised. You know you’re not satisfied with your digging deeper. What did you mainly raised me? What does this mean? That was a launching point for you get the book. Just get the book. You read the story.

[00:21:43.50] spk_0:
Thank you. Um, that is a good story. Um, yeah. Well, I’ll tell real quick that I kind of was in a Kroger with my kids shopping. And this is where I first spotted this label which started this whole, you know, probably tell

[00:21:54.67] spk_1:
every story. Okay, radio

[00:23:12.64] spk_0:
tell this one. Go ahead. Yeah, well, I just I was sitting there like looking at the meat manager, like looking at the meat. You know, I’ll which I as a vegan is weird. My kids were looking at me like, What are you doing, Mom? But I was looking and I’m like, What is this? It’s pretty green package. Looks like it’s You know what people want. Yeah, that kind of green and brown, you’ve seen it, right? It’s on earthy Look, I asked to meet manager and he got so annoyed with my questions, he ended up dragging the box back from the back and said, I don’t know, just look at it. And that’s where I figured out that because it had a Purdue label on it. Then that’s what I call customer service and ever and That’s how I found, you know, knew what Craig was doing. And, you know, later weeks with the Jim Perdue connection, they stonewalled me for about a year they would not produce, would not have a conversation. They were very angry about what happened and very defensive in the in the initial stages. But then, about a year later, after we came out with the video, I was reading The New York Times and there was an article about Purdue moving away from antibiotics and right at the very end there was a quote from Jim Perdue that said, We need happier birds and I was like, What is that? That has nothing to do with antibiotics. Why did he say that? I got very excited. I wrote to their PR person and I said, Look, can we try again? Like I read this, I can see you’re thinking about it, and I I see you’re looking into it. And to my surprise, they did answer that email. And this began a dialogue which led to speaking to the executives and writing the first animal care policy, addressing some of the very things I criticize them for not doing like putting some windows for natural light, giving the birds more space and enrichments and things like that. And we continue tohave that dialogue. And they’ve made a lot of progress to their credit,

[00:24:04.44] spk_1:
you see, and you see that progress through through the book? Um, another. Another important point I think about that you bring out about bridging making relationships with adversaries is you say you gotta walk a mile in his or her shoes. Let’s talk about that and how it relates Thio like you and Craig and Jim Perdue, et cetera. Walk a mile in their shoes.

[00:24:18.94] spk_0:
Yeah, I think from when I started off. Like I said, I wished people like Craig Ill. And then when I sat down with him and began toe, really understand his hardships and the choices he made. This really changed the problem for me and then therefore changed the solutions that needed to be created in order to end factory farming. And one of those key things was basically job options in the farming community in rural areas like North Carolina and walking. Thinking of walking a mile in his shoes, I started to change the way I was talking to him. And instead of thinking, how can I put Craig out of a business? I started to think, How can I create a new business opportunity for him? A new farming, you know, type of things. So we’re now mercy for animals is about to launch a new project precisely around that. Looking at how to transform farmers from being chicken farmers into, say, hemp farmers or which and CBD makes a lot more money than chicken, I can tell you. So these are the kinds of things I started to change. Change. It changed the problem in my mind. So it changed the solutions, and I think that was really important.

[00:26:24.34] spk_1:
They’re too poignant moments that I thought related to both trust and welcome Mile in their shoes. Uh, you were concerned about Craig’s soul as he’s day after day, spending 12 15 hours culling dead chickens. You have to listen. You have to read about how they do that through the through the warehouse and, uh, and what? That what? What? That process killing many a day, Um, what that does to his soul. You were concerned about his soul, and then the other is when Jim Perdue asks about how your newly adopted daughter is doing, and I thought, You know, they’re there. She’s concerned about Craig, the farmer who was she had wished ill of. And Jim Perdue, of all people, is asking you, you know something personal and intimate about about your about your life, and I thought, That’s an example of trust and walk in their

[00:26:33.64] spk_0:
shoes and those connections Air, you know, remind you there’s a there’s a human being behind behind. There is a human being in front of you and, you know, connecting with them takes some of the walls down that way artificially create a lot of the times, and I think that’s really important. And there’s another and I’ll tell another story not to give them all away. But later it’s your book,

[00:26:52.84] spk_1:
your income

[00:26:53.37] spk_0:
stream. I’m doing well. Uh, just for so your listeners know all the income goes thio compassion in world farming for the book. So if you want to help end this by the book and you could give it his gifts to your friend, the holiday season is coming up. So yeah. Um, so you know, one of the chicken producers we worked with later on. I can’t name them because they don’t want to be named. But we went to visit them and we were the first advocates to go talk to them.

[00:27:22.03] spk_1:

[00:27:22.79] spk_0:
that’s what Student and Mike and they invited us and is the first time. And as my coworker, Rachel, dress, skin and I walked in the door, we could see people like peeking over the cubicles and whatnot and we sat down. I pulled out my presentation. The guy was really negative. He had his arms folded and you could tell he was uncomfortable. And then after, um, my laptop pulled up, my desktop picture came up and it was of my family. And he saw my daughter, who clearly looks different. She, you know, has coffee colored skin and ringlets. And he said, Is that your kid? And I said, Yeah, that’s my daughter. I just got back from adopting her and it’s been tough. And I was like, babbling on and emotional and, you know, and he said, Oh, well, I have two adopted kids and, like from that moment on, the walls came down. We started talking about the ups and downs of raising kids and it turned out his he had a foster care that he did with his wife ministry and in that those moments to trust in the humanization of each other and we were was really built. And we were able to make so much more progress because of that. And we remain really able to talk despite the differences, which makes it possible toe make so much more progress. I

[00:31:10.54] spk_1:
thought humanize, don’t demonize. That’s a great and then but you so that you’re getting to another one that I was gonna get to. But, um, finding common ground and that common ground is not necessarily related to the subject matter you’re talking about. In this case, it was it was adoption and foster care. You found common ground totally unrelated to the subject. You were you were you were convening over. It’s time for tony. Take two. I’ve got a new webinar for you. It’s on Thursday, February 25th, five Planned giving websites that set the standard. I’ll show you why I love them and I’ll take off the No, no’s as well for your website. It’s a quick shot. 45 minutes starts at 3 p.m. Eastern on Thursday, February 25th. It’s free. Register at. Ready. Take this down now. Got You got your pick up your phone. Ready? You got your note page on the phone. You got your paper. Pen. Tony dot m a slash PG Websites. That is tony Steak too. Let us return to adversaries into allies with Leah. Gar says, shall we? Let’s do the live listener love, which is abundant. Wow, It’s abundant. Uh, let’s start abroad. Madrid, Spain Young son Korea uh, comes, uh, sorry, sir. Korea Uh Saigon Vietnam. Berlin, Germany. Guten tag, Seoul, South Korea. Khartoum, Sudan Thank you for being with us. Sudan. I don’t think you have before. That’s wonderful. Live love out to Sudan, Singapore, Tijuana, Mexico Minsk in Belarus Londrina, Brazil I may have pronounced it wrong, but I apologize. I apologize for that. But the live love goes out to Brazil. So glad you’re with us. ANKARA, Turkey It’s remarkable. Oh, really? Woodbridge, Ontario in Canada and Munich, Germany. Guten tag to ah, Munich as well. And then bring it home. Tampa, Florida, New York, New York. Multiple as always. Thank you. Thank you not to take New York for granted. New York City. Multiple listeners Special live love after New York, New York. Thank you for that. Broomfield. Colorado is with us, and eso is Rockville Center, New York. I used to have good friends. Rockville Center. There’s a good steak house there. Right by the train. What’s the name of that? That’s a bad subject. Uh, sorry

[00:31:20.35] spk_0:

[00:31:58.74] spk_1:
that Steakhouse sucks. Um, it’s right by the train station in Rockville Center. Um, Fairfield, Connecticut, Miami, Florida, Little Falls, New Jersey. Wow. In New Jersey Live love out to New Jersey. And, of course, all our live listeners. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. And we have to do, of course. And I have to send the podcast pleasantries because that’s where the vast majority of our our lives, our listeners are. Despite this plethora of live listeners, still the vast majority podcast. That’s where the over 13,000 r and I thank you for being with us pleasantries. Tow our podcast, listeners. Thank you for that indulgence.

[00:32:01.04] spk_0:
Um, hi to everyone everywhere. That’s amazing. That

[00:32:03.73] spk_1:
is, it could be It could very well be the subject. You could very well be. You could very well be the subject, but That’s a lot of live listeners.

[00:32:12.14] spk_0:
I know some people in Tampa and Madrid, so maybe it’s, you know, perhaps, yeah.

[00:32:17.34] spk_1:
Um, just get the book. If you get the book, you’ll have the same personal conversation.

[00:32:24.96] spk_0:
We just came out with the audio to just put the audio book out to. That’s helpful.

[00:32:28.74] spk_1:
Okay. Are you the Are you the reader? No. Okay. You didn’t go to Springsteen.

[00:32:32.72] spk_0:
That seems to be very popular

[00:32:33.79] spk_1:
among now.

[00:32:35.09] spk_0:
It would take a long time. I’m trying to read it out loud to my nine year old right now, and we’re only about halfway through. We read a couple pages the night that takes a long time to read it out loud, I think.

[00:32:45.04] spk_1:
Um, So we were talking about, uh, yeah, the common ground. You want to say anything more about common ground than, uh than I attempted?

[00:33:10.54] spk_0:
You think you did a good job? There’s a lot of stories in the book that, um, sort of layout how that’s possible to start those conversations and search for that common ground and how that really changes the atmosphere of that you’re trying to create solutions in and how important that is. Okay. Okay.

[00:33:15.54] spk_1:
Um, Another poignant story. When, uh, Mike Weaver again, you can find out who these characters are. Hey, agrees to introduce you to another farmer named Eric. Eric Hedrick. Who is the? He was the largest West Virginia grower. Uh, Eric was a grower for Pilgrim’s Pride, which I immediately thought should be Pilgrim Shame e You ever thought that? But we should start a website immediately.

[00:33:42.60] spk_0:
All those campaigners out there by up Pilgrim’s shame

[00:33:46.56] spk_1:
shame dot should be dot or dot

[00:33:48.48] spk_0:

[00:33:53.44] spk_1:
Okay, um, Mike Weaver were his motivations similar, uh, introducing you, Thio Eric similar to Craig’s.

[00:34:18.24] spk_0:
So I think everybody is different, but similar in that he was He was very passionate about how unjust the system is for farmers. So he to while he was better off financially than Craig. He had really taken it upon himself to be a farmer activist and really try to confront Pilgrim’s pride and get them to change their contract system and had failed,

[00:34:23.39] spk_1:
as as Craig had Craig Craig had raised objections to Purdue. Yes, and fell on deaf ears. Correct?

[00:34:28.88] spk_0:
Yes. And in West Virginia, where these two farmers are still, there was a horrific disease. And this disease had caught called gangrenous dermatitis,

[00:34:41.11] spk_1:

[00:34:42.21] spk_0:
dermatitis, where it’s basically like gangrene, where it’s a bacteria that eats the birds from the inside out very quickly at the end of their sort of the flock cycle, which

[00:34:51.57] spk_1:
is particularly shitty for the farmers because they’ve got all the feed and and other resource is invested. And so in near the end, like in week six. They’re dying exactly. They don’t get paid for that.

[00:35:04.46] spk_0:
So that’s, you know, money out of their pocket. And it’s also a horrific way for the birds to go and this disease they had been trying to get rid of and there seemed to be no end to it. And Pilgrim’s was not helping and not helping the farmers

[00:35:18.89] spk_1:
right. They wouldn’t provide antibiotics. They won’t intervene.

[00:35:30.54] spk_0:
They wouldn’t intervene. So this was causing the particular farmer. You just mentioned Eric and his wife, Rachel, to head towards bankruptcy, and that was a horrific situation for them. They have three daughters and they didn’t know what they were going to dio, and he

[00:35:38.62] spk_1:
was very heavily invested. He had 12 houses, right? And didn’t Craig have three or four?

[00:35:43.45] spk_0:
Greg had four. Mike had to. That’s more typical.

[00:35:46.33] spk_1:
This guy Eric had, uh, Eric had 12. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:50.14] spk_0:
Who is a big grower?

[00:35:51.29] spk_1:
12 times 30,000 per house. Right. So he’s like, 360,000?

[00:35:58.88] spk_0:
Yes, exactly. And it was an overwhelming task for him. So when he told them Look, I’ve got these birds. They’re dying. They’re Pilgrim’s pride. Answer was so hire more people to pick up the dead birds faster. So the companies response to we have, like a serious illness is pick up the corpses faster, which was ridiculous.

[00:36:21.33] spk_1:
Purely a commodity toe. The producers that well, things have changed. I guess there’s more humanity in it now.

[00:36:28.23] spk_0:
Somewhat it’s getting its pilgrims have done nothing. Zero, they’ve made no

[00:36:31.96] spk_1:
commitment. That’s why you want pilgrim Shame,

[00:36:33.54] spk_0:
right? Yeah. OK, great idea. Credit you with the campaign afterwards.

[00:37:30.93] spk_1:
Uh, Pilgrim’s has not moved. Some have, and we’ll talk. We’ll get a chance to talk about other other industries have changed restaurants, et cetera, foods, food outlets, etcetera. Uh, but at this time, there was no humanity in it at all. It was purely a tradable commodity. Um, so you know this is it. Tze interesting that you know, these farmers want just they they wanna be heard. They want a voice and the the companies that they’ve been appealing to a ZX we said, uh, death falling on deaf ears. But so if they’re just people who want to be heard on dhe some of them, I guess they’re more motivated by the concern for the for the birds and some it sounds like Eric more motivated by their own personal financial straits that they’re that they’re tied, it constrained into, um But in the end, they just all want a voice.

[00:37:33.00] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, the thing with factory farming of chickens is it has such a detrimental impact on so many parts of our world. So whether you are concerned about human health and the disease that comes in and out onto our plate from these farms or about workers, justice or we haven’t even discussed in my book doesn’t really go into the slaughterhouses and the injustice around the workers there, which are mostly Latino and often treated very poorly, especially the women, or you’re concerned about the animals and the just inherent abuse in the system or the environments and the pollution that comes from it. There’s just so many negative parts. And that’s why I say it’s the biggest cause of suffering on the planet. It really touches on so much of our life. So whatever you care about you can you know, whatever is your passion, your centered thing. You confined that connection, and for me, that was this was a journey and discovering it’s not because for me, I come from it primarily because I care about the animals. But in meeting these farmers, I started to really open my scope up and understand this. This is a much bigger issue and their arm or allies I could have We could march together against this and that would be so much more powerful.

[00:38:45.30] spk_1:
And and that was one of my takeaways. Thio subsume that everything we’re saying If you could give your adversaries a voice if they don’t have a voice, maybe you can support each other in in creating that

[00:38:58.82] spk_0:
right? And you know, that’s that. That I still in learning that lesson. I’m still finding those, um, where we join you know, two forces and become more powerful as a result to to get to the same end.

[00:39:37.22] spk_1:
Um, you talk about giving the other side of a path to winning on. That reminded me of things I’ve heard in politics when you know what your back When things were more normal, way cared about foreign nations and the sense of sense, of sensitivities and sensibilities of foreign leaders, you know, I would hear in politics, you know, give them a path to success. But you in the book, you say, um, you know, give the other side of path to winning well again. Another take away for helping build bridges. Let’s talk about that.

[00:39:47.92] spk_0:
Yeah, and I mean, that applies to the farmers, but also applied to these companies that were trying to change where we’re saying, Can you move away from this horrific, unsustainable, cruel system into something else? And we really began to explore plant based alternatives, and you might think that’s insane to suggest, like chicken companies would produce, you know, soy based products or pea protein. But they are, and this was changing this mentality of we’re not trying to put Purdue out of business. We’re trying to help them evolve into a different business, or Tyson evolve into a different business. And these thes that that’s where we start to build this other path. When there we think there’s no way forward. You kind of really have to be creative and think, How can I help their business model evolve into something else? And before you know you have Burger King selling impossible burgers all over the country, it’s happening. It’s happening. And that’s how we evolved into a different business

[00:40:38.89] spk_1:
way. Just have about two more minutes before before our final break. Um, global Animal Partnership. I thought that was an example of a path toward winning for your adversaries. Talking about

[00:40:48.43] spk_0:
that. Yeah, Global animal partnership is a animal welfare certification. You can look it up. So if you ever been in whole foods, you’ll see numbers on the meat one through five. So that is basically five is totally pasture raised, slaughtered on farm, and the animals are living the most natural life they could in a commercial setting, and one is better than industry, but and no cages, no crates and that kind of thing, but not outside. So you have this spectrum and where before we didn’t have this very clear certification for the animals. This is evolved in the last 10 years or so as one of the very clear, um, certifications where you can say, I know exactly where my meets coming from, exactly how the animal was raised. And I can put my my kind of money to my values and decide which one through five I’m comfortable with and then look for them in the supermarket

[00:41:44.81] spk_1:
path toward path toward winning. And that was, uh, a partnership with the You worked with the CEO of Whole

[00:41:50.65] spk_0:

[00:42:29.10] spk_1:
Time for our last break. Quote dot drives has been a blessing to our team. We have converted from fragmented to do lists to a cohesive process. It’s so simple and easy to use, unlike anything I’ve tried before. End quote. That’s Amy Jackson, development coordinator at J. V. I. Prospect to donor simplified. Get the free demo and the free month. You go to a listener landing page at we’ve got but loads more time for adversaries into allies.

[00:42:34.06] spk_0:
Going fast. I feel like going fast.

[00:42:36.48] spk_1:
I’m glad that’s that’s a good That’s a good sign, isn’t it?

[00:42:38.92] spk_0:
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, for sure.

[00:42:46.30] spk_1:
Okay, cool. What do you Let’s start out. What do you want to talk about? I keep I feel like I’m dominating, but I’m supposed to move things along because we do have an hour constraint.

[00:42:51.77] spk_0:
Would you want to talk about my book? So that’s great.

[00:42:54.10] spk_1:
We’re doing what? What? What do you wanna talk about in the book? Think of something. What do you What do you love?

[00:42:59.82] spk_0:
What do I tell

[00:43:00.94] spk_1:
a story or a story? Tell a story or something we talked about?

[00:43:04.10] spk_0:
I don’t know. I guess you know, one of the things that really changed another part that changed my career path is having kids. And I think a lot of people can relate to this. And I hear a lot of advocates say this to or people who work in the nonprofit space. There’s a some point in your life when you you say, like, I really want to make a difference now. And I really want to focus on on delivering my values into the world. And for me. That was when my first son was born. So I had been working in non profit already, but had been working on all animals, and it was only after my son Ruben was born, Uh, that I just sort of looked at him and I thought, Okay, like all my heart is in this one child and without a doubt in 18 years, he’s gonna leave. So when I’m working and I’m not with him, I have got to be ruthless with my time and my impact and that really switched to really focus on farmed animals because farmed animals are the most impacted of any of the animals on our planet that we try to help. So way way overshadows dogs and cats, which is where the majority of our philanthropic dollar goes to

[00:44:13.47] spk_1:
and the and the United States Animal Welfare Act farmed animals were excluded,

[00:44:17.34] spk_0:
right? So far, there’s animal welfare Act. All farmed animals are excluded from that. Then we have the Humane Slaughter Methods Act, which excludes which is supposed to be that animals were rendered unconscious before the knife hits their throat. But all chickens are excluded and fish are excluded. And that’s basically all the animals that we kill. You

[00:44:37.54] spk_1:
said 99 it’s 90% percent of the animals. We kill

[00:45:17.70] spk_0:
our Children. And not only that, but unfortunately, the under the current administration. They have made slaughtering extremely unsafe and fast. So it used to be, if you could imagine this about 100. It was permitted 125 birds per minute in the slaughter plants, and they just changed that for 175 birds a minute. That’s three a second. Can you even imagine that? Not only that, but they’ve removed the policing by the USDA from slaughterhouses, and they’re allowing the companies to police themselves. Yeah, and that’s really there’s very clear evidence that results in MAWR health safety issues. And you know, So for me, it’s just I cannot sort of I can’t emphasize enough how important the problem of helping farmed animal is and Andi, and it’s the main focus of my life. And

[00:45:38.72] spk_1:
you were talking about your son, your son, your first son’s birth.

[00:45:41.71] spk_0:
Yeah, that really his birth kind of was Ah ha! Moment. A light bulb moment was like, you know, time’s a wasting like I have to focus. And if I’m away from him, it better before good reason. And that really helped me to focus

[00:46:14.38] spk_1:
something. You say that, uh, that I thought was a very empathic moment. It’s early on. Uh, I’m quoting you. Anyone can end up on the wrong path despite the best of intentions that has you tell it in your duck story. Don’t tell that one relates to the related to the ducks. He she she helps the ducks. Leave it at that. You gotta get the book to read the story. But But I thought that was very empathic. I mean, that related to all the farmers that work with you. They had good intentions. Craig just wanted toe send his kids to college and make a find a living to do that and stay on his his five generation ah family land in in southern North Carolina. Great intentions, but can end up on the wrong path. That was very empathic statement.

[00:47:25.58] spk_0:
Thank you for picking up on that, That I wasn’t sure if everybody would. It was a small sentence in there, but it was meant to be very symbolic, because that is the lens we have to go in. And you know, uh, the part you know about someone’s life is like is you know, that’s a tiny fraction of what their whole life is, and you have to go in realizing there’s so much more to this person in their story, and you don’t have any clue what it is. And so you can. They could have started off this journey thinking the things you said like they want to pay for college. You want to stay on the land. They want to pay their employees. They wanna, you know, by a you know, college fund or help a charity or do a ministry for foster care, who knows? But it could have an unintentional bad consequences, And that happens a lot in our world, and it’s about help. It’s not about blaming, shaming and pushing people into a corner when they made those choices, but really trying to find, uh, the pathway out for them that leave the door open for them to get out of there.

[00:47:45.28] spk_1:
That’s beautiful segue, because I was thinking next, um, again building bridges to adversaries. I don’t know if it’s Jim produces that or, you know, I think you say this. No, no change can be achieved without the opponents engagement. Andi. I think it comes to the context of you working with working with Jim Perdue, but that, you know, that’s for the for the extreme extremist activist who will never talk to the other side. You realize now you’ve come through like that. That’s an enormous mistake,

[00:48:14.34] spk_0:
right? And in my case, I’m not in charge of a single chicken. I have no access. So the only way I could access the animals I’m trying to help is through either the farmer of the company. So I have to enter their space. I have to understand their problems or dilemmas and try to build solutions from that space, which is very uncomfortable. Yeah, and it’s messy, and it’s difficult, but you have tow. We don’t really make progress by only talking to people who agree with us. That’s not the place you make

[00:48:56.87] spk_1:
products enormously important. Yeah, you don’t You don’t control a single chicken. Yeah, um, very empathic. I mean, the whole book is really starting with the ducks in the backyard. Very. It’s a very empathic story, I think, Um, who else was Who else? Well, and ask you about some people. Jim Perdue. How did how did he eventually come around?

[00:49:05.07] spk_0:
Well, you know, the first time I met him, I didn’t know I was gonna meet.

[00:49:08.55] spk_1:
Okay? You had said Hey, had his quote. We need happier chickens. You engaged with him? Uh, you engage with the company, and and they responded. That’s right. I’m sorry.

[00:49:17.37] spk_0:
Yeah, we talked

[00:49:18.31] spk_1:
about that. Um, but then you end up doing panels with him sitting next to him being interviewed. What was that, like?

[00:49:26.77] spk_0:
Terrifying. You talk

[00:49:27.77] spk_1:
about being backstage

[00:49:28.75] spk_0:
with him, but

[00:49:29.99] spk_1:
he says he trust you. He looks you in

[00:49:31.42] spk_0:
the eye. I trust you. But first he said, I feel like a lamb being led to slaughter on. Then he said, Trust you. So there was a humane. I guess he was hoping I wouldn’t slaughter him.

[00:49:42.95] spk_1:
It was gonna be a humane slaughter. He was gonna be

[00:49:45.39] spk_0:
stage, I guess. Yeah. Uh, it was terrifying. And he and his wife, Jan, came over to London to speak at a conference called the Extinction Conference, held by compassion in world farming. Looking at the connection of factory farming with causing so many species to go extinct and the impact on our planet. And he came to speak and talk about working with each other and how difficult that Waas and We were interviewed by Maren McKenna, who is a great journalist. She wrote the book, um called Oh my gosh, Big Chicken And and it was terrifying. But again, you know, he was very honest. And I think both of us have lost some friends and becoming friends in the process. But we both can’t resist the pathway to of forging this better way. And I I think eventually others will follow this way,

[00:50:38.66] spk_1:
and the dominoes have started to fall. I think you have a chapter or section called the dominant of Falling Dominoes. Something related

[00:50:45.15] spk_0:
to that. Over 200 companies have agreed to a new policy on on chickens that are raised for meat.

[00:50:51.75] spk_1:
And these air across their producers. They’re food service companies, um, groceries, restaurants like Chipotle Panera.

[00:51:01.56] spk_0:
No groceries yet sadly. But we have no groceries. We had a whole so it’s of course. Sorry. I forgot. I was thinking like giant ones like Walmart, which I still we’re still working on, But find common ground. You trust them. Give them a path toward winning radio. Thank you. S O. Subway and Burger King, for example, have agreed thio, uh, to change their some of their conditions. So including giving the birds more space a better breed that causes less suffering, better slaughter conditions that render the animals unconscious before they’re shackled. So lots of these progress is being made, and Purdue did lead the way by creating um by saying they would provide the chickens at this higher welfare certification not certification, but standard. And that’s you know, I think, um, proof that sometimes you have to step out in front and you have to do these uncomfortable, messy and difficult things and conversations. But others will follow. If you could be brave enough to do that,

[00:52:08.25] spk_1:
read the book. The evidence is abundant that that’s that’s the case. Let’s just have a few minutes before we wrap up. Let’s talk a little bit. So where you mentioned your Burger King? Um, I’m seeing a lot of press, including investment. Um, investment advice around. Impossible burger. Um, what’s the other

[00:52:25.51] spk_0:
one beyond Beyond.

[00:52:26.71] spk_1:
Beyond burger, Right beyond foot.

[00:52:28.48] spk_0:
No. Beyond

[00:52:29.13] spk_1:
beyond meat. Impossible burger. Um, and you wrap up with well near wrap up with regenerative organics. So so organic alone on chicken is not organic is not synonymous with humanely raised the way we’re talking about is not synonymous with pastor raises. It relates to the food, right?

[00:52:48.35] spk_0:
Right. It’s the that means the feed has been raised without pesticide. You have to see you have to see pasture

[00:52:54.46] spk_1:
raised or the or the I guess the five on the on the

[00:52:58.32] spk_0:
gap or look for a plant based alternatives. And I think that’s a really what’s a really important growing trends like, for example, where I live in Atlanta. We had this crazy thing happened a month ago, which was the KFC trialed beyond chicken nuggets in Atlanta, and it was insane. So it was one day tri ALS in Atlanta and I went at 10 o’clock. We did some filming, and when I got there at 10 o’clock, there was traffic stopped in all directions. They had painted the KFC green. This is KFC, Mind you, KFC right? And there was you thought they were giving out, like Beyonce tickets for free, inside or something. It was really insane, and they sold out in five hours. They said they were supposed to have two weeks worth of beyond chicken, so I think

[00:53:41.89] spk_1:

[00:53:43.38] spk_0:
They give it away. People coming to buy it and it was five hours. And it just shows this, like, insane demand for plant based alternatives. Because people are like, I don’t I don’t want to eat this much meat. I don’t want to eat this meat. I don’t know where it comes from, but it comes from a plant. I can trust that. So there’s a real swing of these companies, like KFC. On the way here I saw Dunkin Donuts commercial showing beyond sausage in their breakfast Patties. Now, so there’s a real trend in my book talks about that in the last chapter towards that plant based alternatives.

[00:54:13.33] spk_1:
And we just have a minute left. Regenerative organics. We can eat meat that is not raised for slaughter. You got a minute?

[00:54:49.80] spk_0:
Oh, that’s called. That’s not regenerative. That’s lab based meat. So eso lab bases, Where is that what you’re talking about? Okay. Lab based chapter and regenerative chapter on lab, where you take a single cell from a feather, you grow it in a brewery kind of thing, and then you grow the burger that way, and this is really happening. And I tried duck of all things which really brings it back to the beginning, and I thought, This is the future And there’s more people that have been on, you know, been up in space that I’ve tried clean meat as it’s called at this stage. But I felt so lucky, and I really felt I was peering into the future of Ah place where no animal has ever slaughtered. And no, no animal ever suffers in order to produce our meat.

[00:56:20.84] spk_1:
Awesome. That doesn’t bring it full circle. She’s Leah, Gar says Jr CEO with an accent s. You’ll find her at Leah. Underscore compassion. The organization is at mercy for animals and mercy for animals dot or GE says, Thank you so much for sharing. Get the book for God’s sake. Next week, Listen closely with Emily Taylor. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott. Thank you for that information. Scotty. Be with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for February 8, 2021: Opera Singer to Fundraiser

My Guest:

Yolanda F. Johnson: Opera Singer to Fundraiser

Yolanda F. Johnson’s classical opera training informs her fundraising practice. She’s the founder and president of YFJ Consulting and the first African-American president of Women in Development, NY. She’s with us for the hour.



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[00:02:12.24] spk_1:
Hi there. I’m shaking it up this week. It’s a throwback. I picked an archive show, and I’m keeping it intact right down to Tony’s Take Two from Boise, Idaho, and the podcast pleasantries in the live listener Love you remember those. The sponsor messages are current, though. Got to keep the sponsors satisfied and fulfill contractual obligations. It’s from back When When we were in the studio, remember, remember the New York City studio with Sam? Sam Liebowitz, our producer? Yes, a throwback here is from June 28 2019. Hello and welcome to big ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Hemi Diocese Asia if you blindsided me with the idea that you missed today’s show From opera Singer to fundraiser Yolanda F. Johnson’s classical opera training informs her fundraising practice. She’s the founder and president of Y F J Consulting and the first African American president of Women in Development, New York. She’s with us for the hour. I’m Steak, too. Hello from Boise were sponsored by turn to communications PR and content. For nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives. Prospect to donor. Simplified for a free demo and a free month. I’m very glad to welcome Yolanda F. Johnson to the studio. She has nearly two decades of experience as a fundraising expert and professional musician. She is founder and president of Why F. J Consulting and the first African American president elect in the 40 year history of women in Development New York. Her company is why f j consulting dot com Women in development is at UID and why dot or GE? And she’s at Yolanda F. Johnson. Welcome, Johnson. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. Come a little closer to the mike. Okay. Classically trained opera singer. I’m surprised your voice

[00:02:27.70] spk_0:
If I’m singing, you’ll

[00:02:28.61] spk_1:
hear everything

[00:02:29.57] spk_0:

[00:03:01.44] spk_1:
may get to that. No, I wouldn’t put you. Okay. Um So congratulations, President Elect of women and Development with New York. Uh, you begin your term on July 1st. Awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. So timely. You see, everything in your career has led you to this day on. Indeed. Everything that we’re gonna talk about and and coming up, uh, culminates here. You’re at the pinnacle. It’s all downhill from here. That means it’s all downhill from here. I’m sorry. Uh, okay. So, uh, your Nebraska girl I am. How did you find your way from, uh, Nebraska Thio Professional opera Singing that Z, That’s not a typical trip for Ah, Nebraskan.

[00:03:12.54] spk_0:
Well, not necessarily so. But we all have our own paths. And I began with music probably four years old, and that was piano first. And then I started to sing in church, actually went to get a music degree of performance degree in undergrad in Oklahoma, went to get a graduate degree that had a focus in fundraising, arts administration and fundraising and then sold all my worldly goods and moved to New York. Because this is where you could do everything

[00:03:39.89] spk_1:
for singing, for singing principles originally or or fundraising or something else.

[00:03:45.07] spk_0:
Interestingly, I never did fundraising. Some people always have day jobs or you see performers and they have other jobs or servers or something like that. Hospitality. I’ve always loved both. I’ve always loved music, and I’ve always loved fundraising, and I’ve always had them in my life simultaneously.

[00:04:02.36] spk_1:
Okay? What does it mean to be a classically trained opera singer? What? What is that what

[00:04:08.76] spk_0:
it means? I worked really hard with lots of teachers. Um, toe learn proper technique to sing opera and classical music. Uh, opera and recitals. Art song. Um, I specialize in spirituals as well with the underground railroad.

[00:04:25.44] spk_1:
Oh, really? Okay. Um, we’ll say a little more about that. What about spirituals in the underground railroad? I mean, you’re performing those now? Yeah.

[00:04:43.84] spk_0:
Yeah. I have an album called Feel the Spirit Feel. Feel the spirit. Feel it. Yeah, And I have a concert lecture called a spirituals experience. You like that? Spirituals

[00:04:46.96] spk_1:
experience, spirituals experience, a concert lecture, eso that’s talk and singing.

[00:04:51.86] spk_0:
Yes. I teach people about the hidden messages behind some of the music, the spirituals, some of the things they meant with the underground

[00:06:00.34] spk_1:
railroad. Okay, okay. I haven’t seen a lot of opera. My the pinnacle of my opera attendance was probably I saw Aida in Italy at the Battle of the Baths of Caracalla, which is an outdoor. It used to be a bathhouse in ancient days. Now it’s, uh it’s a performance space and I was traveling in Italy. I just stumbled on these tickets from a booth on the street. Stumbled on those two. Yeah, they were. Well, I had to pay for them, but I stumbled on the booth that was selling the tickets. Just said Aida Caracol. And I thought, Well, that’s cool. I know what Caracalla is. Um, so I mean, this was a lavish. I mean, I eat it takes place in Egypt. Uh, I know, you know that, but for for for the Neophytes out there, uh, I need to take place in Egypt. And there were There were all kinds of animals. There were camels. I think there were tigers on stage, like 100 and 50 people. I mean, this was a lavish. There were live animals and lots of people. It was amazing. It was amazing. It was a beautiful night. Um, anyway, so, um, have you performed e

[00:06:03.98] spk_0:
have not performed the only one I

[00:06:05.22] spk_1:
know. Okay, e don’t even remember. This was years ago. I don’t remember, but I know it involves a queen and love and a mistress and Egypt. A lot of just like 90% of opera. Okay, Um now you’re still currently You’re still performing? Yeah, you have some. You have a show coming up.

[00:06:23.04] spk_0:
I dio have a show in August of Gian Carlo Menotti’s The Console and we actually put it in contemporary times. So it sparks dialogue about the immigration debate.

[00:06:35.94] spk_1:
Okay. Ah, nde. We’ll say it now and then. We’ll remind listeners at the end, where can they see the console?

[00:06:45.69] spk_0:
They can see the console. I’ll be Magda Magda in that production at the amphitheater at the Hudson River Museum in Yonkers. It is not upstate, it’s just the suburb

[00:07:13.14] spk_1:
Yonkers. It’s not yet well, right for New Yorkers, that’s upstate. But it tze not upstate eerie and buffalo upstate. Okay, but for geo centric New Yorkers who think this is the center of the universe, that’s you need a passport to get toe Yonkers. OK, eso if I don’t. If I forget, remind me that put little pitch in for that at the end to um so now you’re before we get to weed. So opera and singing informs your consulting. It does Y f J consulting very much. What’s the What’s the influence their of singing over fundraising?

[00:07:26.91] spk_0:
Well, since you know, as I mentioned, I’ve always had a love for both. I found this intersection that makes me so excited. And it’s using performance practice in philanthropy and and fundraising. I realized I was at somewhat of an advantage, right, because, uh, I knew how to get into character. I knew how to breathe. I knew how to get through things that make may make other people nervous. Um, by using the things I had learned as a performer and all the world is a stage. I have a workshop that I just launched a month or so ago called All the World’s a Stage, and it deals with that. It helps people. It coaches them through, um, being on that fundraising stage and using performance, practice, toe, succeed and excel.

[00:08:10.29] spk_1:
So we’re talking about overcoming the anxiety of what face to face meetings, uh, training session, public speaking, kind of public speaking,

[00:08:26.91] spk_0:
making me ask, making the pitch, knowing how to pivot if I’m talking to you and it’s not going quite right knowing what to say next. That’s improv. Improv. Yeah,

[00:08:40.66] spk_1:
uh, interesting. Because I was trained. I was I was coached, I guess, uh, years ago, when I was getting started, public speaking. I didn’t feel like I was very strong and my coach was a jazz singer and she brought in some elements of jazz, which is largely improv on Dhe. Then we thought this was incredible. She she and I worked together for a couple of years, on and off, and then she felt like she had done everything she could to help me, and she recommended I take improv classes on. I loved improv so much that I, instead of taking one class, I took four classes. Like in a year. There were three months classes. I think I could come back to back improv at UCB, the Upright Citizens Brigade here in New York City. Uh, that really she she did take me to another level, but then improv. Just the confidence of walking on stage with a scene partner with knowing only one word like knowing your first word of your first sentence and relying on your scene partner or team.

[00:09:25.64] spk_0:
And even if you’re not confident faking it until you make it getting into character, taking that breath, walking out there and just doing it, getting that performance done, whatever it is if the stage is the boardroom, if it’s on the stage, um, you’re always on stage, right? Pretty much in life. You wanna live an authentic life, but you also wanna be prepared and be able to navigate.

[00:10:52.24] spk_1:
All right, So let’s all right, let’s take our first break and then we’re gonna talk a little more detail about, uh, some of the things you just ticked off, like some of the some of the, um singing lesson performance lessons that specifically that inform your informed fundraising and speaking etcetera, little detail. Here’s that break that I inarticulately introduced turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times CBS Market Watch The Chronicle of Philanthropy Turn two has the relationships with outlets like these. So when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, trends in philanthropy, they turn to turn to turn two turns to you. There’s lots of turning going on because your turn to his client turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to from opera singer to fundraiser, say a little more detail about I mean eso I riffed on improv, but what are some of the specific, uh, skills that you could bring from performance toe help fundraisers.

[00:11:01.74] spk_0:
Well, one thing in particular, I think, whoever your audiences, if it’s 205 100 people in an auditorium, if it’s your board of directors, if it’s some major donor prospects, um, you know, always being prepared, nothing will save the day like being prepared. So you have to

[00:11:17.78] spk_1:
prepare. Yeah,

[00:11:52.94] spk_0:
nothing’s gonna get you by you don’t prepare. Um, but once you have that, there’s a certain peace of mind that comes And then so you understand your audience and you wanna make sure that, uh, there’s a level of comfort between you and them with, especially with American audiences. Um, we don’t breathe a lot as native speakers of English. Have you ever noticed? Well, have you ever noticed that you’re talking and you’re just having this conversation with somebody? Maybe not you, because you’ve done improv, but a lot of us other people were just talking and then suddenly take a really deep breath.

[00:11:53.59] spk_1:
Yeah, and sometimes on the show. And I think everybody here is my breath. I’m like some kind of Godzilla. Something.

[00:11:58.88] spk_0:
Yeah. You take a huge breath because you haven’t been breathing. You don’t wanna walk around breathing too much. But you want to relax, right? Because your audience, actually on the subconscious level consents. You’re not breathing, and it makes them very uncomfortable singing or speaking. If you’re going to long, they’re like, Oh, my God, she

[00:12:16.10] spk_1:
hasn’t. I’ve also done stand up comedy along with along with improv and the audience can definitely sense fear. Maybe it comes from breath. I don’t know, but they could tell when you’re nervous and that makes them nervous. And your material could be fabulous, But they’re scared for you. So they’re not laughing the way you want them Thio audience they can smell. Yeah, right. I mean, audiences consents eso you got okay, So be prepared. Gives you confidence. You’re not fearful. People don’t sense your fear,

[00:12:45.91] spk_0:
right? And then you just know what you’re doing, right? I’m having a conversation with you. Have done the research. You do your prospecting as a fundraiser. You read your lines. Um, you learn your music as a performer, be prepared, whatever it is that you’re doing. And then that gives you that peace of mind. So I’m having a conversation with you where I don’t necessarily just have bullet points in my mind that I want to cover. I have them there is back up. But I can have a real authentic conversation with you. Right? And and from that comes hopefully dollars and cultivation of relationships and augmenting of audiences.

[00:13:30.64] spk_1:
Um, anything else we can, uh, touch on Besides, Okay. So preparation, preparation. What about breathing? Are there breathing at Do you go through breathing exercises with clients? What’s a breathing exercise? Could we doing?

[00:13:32.79] spk_0:
Sure teach me. So

[00:13:35.25] spk_1:
I’m trainable. Do I need to stand up for it? We can. We pretend I’m standing cause then we gotta adjust the mic and everything. Okay, Pretend I’m standing.

[00:13:53.48] spk_0:
So whenever you take a breath, the proper breath is not a shallow one that just goes straight out front. Right? It’s ah, breath that’s barrel shaped. We have these muscles between our ribs. Everybody talks about the diagram, but think of your not necessarily untrue. But think about your intercostal muscles, right?

[00:13:59.57] spk_1:
That’s the ones that connect the ribs to the spine.

[00:14:01.62] spk_0:
So your breath should be barrel shaped, not shallow. There you go.

[00:14:05.94] spk_1:
And into the shoulders, like up, up,

[00:14:28.34] spk_0:
up. It doesn’t have to be affected deep. And then you control it out. Mhm. Whether or not I’m sitting there and I’m about to perform or if I’m about to ask you for $10 million you take that breath, then I can look you in the eye and we can have an authentic conversation. Okay. Did that help? Did you notice the difference between the shallow and the

[00:14:42.74] spk_1:
also the pacing of your the way you were talking to? Yeah, together. Okay. Like you change, you can change the mood in a conversation through pace.

[00:14:44.47] spk_0:
Exactly. And pace is very closely related to

[00:14:46.71] spk_1:
breath. You could get people’s attention with silence. You built in a little silence. Not awkward, but there’s some pauses. You could get people’s attention that way. Yeah, I do that. Stand up trying to get I do that sometimes. Stand up, take a pause. Like every second doesn’t have to be filled with syllables. Right,

[00:15:04.24] spk_0:
Because in the audience starts getting stressed out. Okay.

[00:15:11.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. Thank you. You’re welcome. Um, this is very good. All right. So this is the intersection of performance and on dhe fundraising. And of course I mean, you’re right. We are like, sort of constantly performing and fundraisers all them or whether you’re in a board meeting where you’re in a 1 to 1 meeting and it may not even necessarily be a solicitation. You’re trying to get to know someone, make them comfortable so that a couple of meetings from now, you know, you’re gonna ask them to be, uh, step up for the campaign or for the dinner, or to be a major volunteer or be a board member. You know, whatever it is not only about dollars.

[00:15:42.97] spk_0:
Whatever ask it is that you’re going to make. You can’t just ask people unnecessarily immediately for money. You want to cultivate that relationship, and you wanna be asked again, or you want to have your invitation accepted the next time so you can continue that process?

[00:16:23.14] spk_1:
Yeah. And if it’s awkward, uncomfortable, you’re lowering the chances of going to get an email. Yeah. Yeah. You get an email after a call, right? You get a voice, you leave a voicemail, you get an email. That’s bad. That’s usually a bad sign. Um, okay. Um, let’s all right, let’s talk some about wid 40th anniversary. You’re the first black. Uh well, they’re all females. Your first black president of wid. Congratulations on that milestone. Um, what’s what’s coming up for wod This is a big anniversary year for we do.

[00:16:27.72] spk_0:
It’s a huge anniversary. Here I happen, toe. Just love this organization. I don’t just say that, um it’s been a really big factor in my fundraising career and in my life, and it has some amazing women that are really running this town as far as fundraising is concerned in the tri state area. Really? And for our 40th anniversary, um, we have lots of wonderful things planned new programming. We have a really row best programming schedule. We’re gonna delve deeper into some issues that we haven’t necessarily touched upon before about the experience of being a woman in the field.

[00:17:03.74] spk_1:
Like Like what? What are some of those issues?

[00:17:09.64] spk_0:
Uh, well, we’re actually gonna have a conversation about the role of men. Okay? You know, uh, and we’re gonna look holistically at the with woman and And who women are in the development field and embrace

[00:17:19.91] spk_1:
the role of men. I mean, like, I could synopsis eyes that I can summarize that in a sentence. White men have all the power.

[00:17:25.74] spk_0:
Well, we’re going to talk about that. Maybe you should come to that session.

[00:17:44.14] spk_1:
That’s very interesting that you say that I wasn’t gonna bring this up. Um, but I will. Eso Years ago, I tried to be a speaker at UID, and they had some kind of policy. I don’t know if it was written or or just, uh, er de facto, but they weren’t They weren’t bring in male speakers.

[00:17:48.69] spk_0:
Well, I’ll put it this way. Would is open Wit is really smart. Okay, I will say that not just because I’m the leader of the organization, but we were dealing with some really highly intelligent people who make really good decisions for the organization where it’s at at whatever period that

[00:18:04.22] spk_1:
was Well,

[00:18:05.94] spk_0:
I don’t I don’t know that they blew it. They just made a decision that was best for the organization. But that being said, um, we our mission is to empower women in the field, whatever that means in whatever way, um is appropriate at that time. And so, in this particular season, we’ve been around for four decades, and, uh, we find the value in having that conversation about empowering women And what does that mean? You know, how can this whole village of people in philanthropy empower women in the development field? And so, um, at that particular session, it would make a lot of sense, possibly for you to join us. Well, I would like committees listening. Right? We have witnesses.

[00:18:47.58] spk_1:
Okay, I would I would love to. We’re gonna send out live Whistler in love with you. How many are in Manhattan right now? Um, but I also want to make clear they don’t doesn’t have to be, uh, men in the room to talk about dealing with male

[00:18:59.69] spk_0:
power. No, not not. Not at all. But we, as women, have talked about for a long time. And now we need we want to look at it from a different perspective. And not only that, but again empowering women. So we have programs around professional development skills based, um, wellness. You know, we’re gonna be introducing that this year. We’re going through a rebranding. So we’re gonna launch that at our member meeting in September. Eso just lots of really wonderful, exciting things. We also talk about leadership, of course. You know, in the trajectory of ah women and development members career. How to assess that. And then we have this amazing network of women that are so supportive. There’s a sense of camaraderie with wood that’s just unique,

[00:19:42.25] spk_1:
is with National. And this is the New York, uh, chapter we’re talking about, or is with New York unique

[00:19:49.54] spk_0:
with other women and development. There are other chapters, but there’s not a national body that oversees us. Uh, but there’s a chapter, and there’s would Greater Boston. Um, there’s one in New Jersey. There’s one upstate in actual upstate, not in Westchester. E think there’s one around Westchester to, um and you know, we’re actually doing some research to really discover. So if, uh, your audience is broad, right all over the country. So if there are with chapters that we may not know of, we want to talk to you, actually, because we like toe toe, have a conversation with you about getting together and working together.

[00:20:27.14] spk_1:
Um, does wid you mentioned the network does, does does we’ve encourage mentorship. You must

[00:20:58.04] spk_0:
we Do We have an organic mentor ship that happens? I’ve had several really, really, um, pivotal mentors that have come through with that have taught me so much. Uh, and I think that we all find those relationships. It’s why going to our networking events going to our programs. You end up developing the circle of colleagues and really friends that it lasts for years.

[00:20:59.32] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s it’s crucial. I’ve had lots of guests talk about it, and I’ve experienced it myself. Um, mentorship.

[00:21:22.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s very important. And that’s one of the beautiful things about many and leadership with with our board of directors Phenomenal women. Uh, and I don’t say that I don’t give free compliments. Um, I mean it when I say that and they are so open to, you know, spending time with young professionals with other people if they have questions, um, really championing. And again, we all go back to empowerment of women in the fundraising field.

[00:21:41.18] spk_1:
Is there a coronation on Monday? Uh, Monday Coronation event that we should be attending at Cipriani, or oh, uh, no,

[00:21:49.60] spk_0:
but we just had our woman of achievement a week or so ago. Um, no, there isn’t it. It’s a quiet transition, but, uh, but nonetheless enthusiastic.

[00:21:58.04] spk_1:
What is your first official act? A ZX president.

[00:22:02.64] spk_0:
My first official act I already have a task list for Monday of some things that just need to get done. I’ve been working for a while, actually. Are outgoing president. I’ll give her a shout out here. Bryant, Um, wonderful person and leader. And,

[00:22:16.49] spk_1:

[00:22:23.04] spk_0:
she’s the director of development there. And so I’ll just be looking forward to a lot of the things that I’ve started implementing. Really? As early as January, she was very supportive. We started a system that hopefully I’ll be able to continue of allowing the person coming next, um, to begin the planning process so that they could be ahead of the game before that July 1st period.

[00:22:41.26] spk_1:
It sounds like you have that advantage. I did. And how long is your time? Two years. Two years? Okay. And 2020 is the 40th year of Is that right?

[00:22:49.83] spk_0:
This is our 40th anniversary year, but we’re gonna have ah, birthday anniversary bash in January to celebrate that we’re entering

[00:22:56.97] spk_1:
that. Oh, wonderful. So that at the Pierre Hotel? No. Would you like to sponsor? E Don’t know about sponsoring, but I might come. Where is it? Where you doing it?

[00:23:05.14] spk_0:
Uh, those details will be available later. We have a lot that we’re launching at the meeting in September.

[00:23:09.97] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. So, January January, Miguel in

[00:23:13.53] spk_0:
January. Not big gala, but big celebration

[00:23:15.98] spk_1:
celebration. Okay. Okay.

[00:23:17.86] spk_0:
Um, as an events person, I’m very careful about that. Word. That g word,

[00:23:34.16] spk_1:
uh, means a certain certain expectations. Right? Ah, 1000 people A tw the world over story. Right? Right. So, events, um, do you Do you still enjoy events? Still like, Do you still like putting them together? I mean, I know that’s not your practice, but you still like being the organizer of events

[00:23:41.64] spk_0:
on a personal level. I think I planned my first event when I was six years old.

[00:23:45.94] spk_1:
Okay, that was two years after you started music so late, Bloomer in events. All right,

[00:23:50.64] spk_0:
Um, and I personally, I love to love people through that they’re being bringing them together through ah, common bond. A mission, Uh, just, you know, an affinity for something with delicious food and for was ready for you mentioned food? Yes. Food

[00:24:06.69] spk_1:
and food and wine, I think are great. Lubricate er’s for a room.

[00:24:11.74] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, just it’s that sensory thing. Yeah, the sensory thing

[00:24:15.44] spk_1:
and sharing. It’s a share, sure, coming together with a table, not necessarily sitting around it. But it’s a buffet table, you know? Or if we are sitting down together, it’s sharing a space, That’s why. Yeah,

[00:24:40.14] spk_0:
exactly. And for a, it should have that same sentiment. I think you know, we’re all what makes it special is that you’re coming together to celebrate. It’s a culmination of them, you know, belief in that organization’s mission. Um, it’s not just the party, but it is a celebration, you know,

[00:24:42.34] spk_1:
Um, yeah, events. I have a hard time doing events. I just the details, like, Does the bunting match the flowers? You know, things like that I don’t have a lot of patients for So I am grateful that there are people who enjoy doing

[00:24:53.79] spk_0:
it. And I love campaigns. You know, Those are my focus areas with my practices, events and campaigns. And I happen to specialize in anniversary campaigns that culminate in an event. So, you know that marries those two

[00:25:05.90] spk_1:
things that the anniversary Yeah, the anniversary, as you’re doing with wid, should be celebrated over a long over over a long period, right? Plan. These things in advance.

[00:25:14.50] spk_0:
Yes, I mean,

[00:25:15.89] spk_1:
not just a one night like a one night thing. 40th, 40th anniversary night and then e. It should be multiple activities right through a year

[00:26:07.84] spk_0:
exactly on. So it is the 40th anniversary year. That’s why we’re starting in 2019. It’s the year and then it will culminate next year, and there are lots of things planned. So we have. We’ll have our woman of achievement lunch and again next May, And, uh, then we’ll have the celebration in January. But everything this year, you know, we have thematic concepts across a year. A lot of the time this past year was women in philanthropy, and this coming year is gonna be focused upon being around for four decades and what would has meant to the fundraising field. And, uh, and where it goes from here with has meant a lot tow women in the field. We have some real pioneers, um, many of whom are still around and still supportive of the organization, and we’re really appreciative of them. Oh, see, And I know I will, but you

[00:26:10.75] spk_1:
know, I’m not. Leave somebody out, right? And then you’ll feel

[00:26:12.90] spk_0:
bad. Let me do that disclaimer. But I am that type of person that loves to give people individual attention. And then I’m like, Oh, wait. Next week on your show, you mentioned these

[00:26:21.14] spk_1:
names. E o. I put I put her on the spot so she did not come prepared. But names, um, pioneers who are members of wid

[00:26:30.79] spk_0:
Linda Hartley.

[00:26:32.24] spk_1:
Okay, I know her. She’s been on the show when she came out with her book.

[00:26:35.73] spk_0:
When is amazing? Um, Shirley Jenks, who you also know

[00:26:39.17] spk_1:
I know Shirley very well. Done some work with her Shirley Jenks and J n ks in, uh, in here in the city.

[00:26:56.44] spk_0:
Margaret Holman is a past president. Margaret. She has a relationship with Nebraska to okay, she’s on the board of the University of Nebraska. Um, we have a current board member who just co chaired, uh, woman of achievement luncheon this past year. Jane Carlin, Who’s a beautiful person. Uh, and then Oh, my God. See, now I don’t know Susan Yulin. You know Susan because she know my favorite people on the Planet

[00:27:13.26] spk_1:
E. Yeah, but just generally, for non profits, do planning in advance of your upcoming anniversary. You know, if it’s your 50th year or some organizations you know, 125th year you wanna be start planning that a couple of years in advance whether there’s gonna be What’s it gonna be? Is it gonna be a fundraising campaign or it doesn’t have to be. But it’s a good hook. Whatever it’s gonna be, you should start planning out of major anniversaries. I think two years in advance or so

[00:27:42.60] spk_0:
that’s a good timeline. Yeah, it gives you time toe to think ahead and be creative.

[00:27:47.44] spk_1:
Maximum advantage. Big news

[00:27:49.82] spk_0:
hook. I’m a piecemeal or by nature. You won’t really see me dive into something and completed all at once. I like to be ableto work on it and take a step back. Go back to it. Have the daily experience of your life. Inform some of the decisions that you make, You know, you keep living life and things happening there, like, you know, I’ll go back to this and maybe I’ll try it this way. So, um, so what is definitely We’ve been planning ahead and we’re excited.

[00:31:24.04] spk_1:
It’s a life practice. Piecemeal. You say piecemeal. I would say life, it’s a life practice you come back to things. Um okay, um let’s zoom, Let’s take our break. And when we come back, I want to talk a little about your experience as a black woman in fundraising and ah, survey that we have, uh, so hang on there. Okay, great. Alright. Thank you. Don’t walk out now. Time for. Stick to hello from Boise, Idaho. I was just there for a long weekend. Visiting dear friends. Um, and I recommend Boise on, by the way, it’s Boise, Boise. I mean, you don’t Boise, but it’s not Boise for you. East coasters. It’s Boise, Boise, Idaho. Um, I learned just like it’s Oregon, not Oregon. There’s no easy Oregon at the end of Oregon. Um, a little bit of a digression. So, Boise, what about it? It’s got mountains, beautiful mountain range, snow capped mountains in the winter and the spring even when the temperature is is, uh, more modest, you know, down below the beautiful, snowcapped mountains. Um, they take their beers very seriously. 16 brew houses in Boise Now, I did not get to sample all of them. I went to a couple. Uh, I can shout out, uh, powder powerhouse h A U s powerhouse. Very nice place. Um, 10 barrel, which happens to be downtown. Uh, those air to that that we went to there was a third one. I can’t remember. They also take their food very seriously. If you go downtown. Around where? Around where? Uh, 10 barrel is 8th, 8th Street and Main Street. Lots of restaurants and other brewpubs and breweries not serving food. Right along eighth and main. Um, lots of serious restaurants there. And I don’t mean serious upscale. Just very good food. Reminds me of Portland a lot. In that respect, they take this food very seriously. Um, what else about boys? Oh, just drive 10 minutes, 15 minutes. You’re out your way out of the city. We visited a winery, so I’m recommending Boise as a travel destination. And there’s more in my video. Um, and you will find that at dot com. And that is. Take two. Now, let’s, uh let’s continue a little more with Yolanda F. Johnson and upper singer to fundraiser. Whoa, Look at the bursting. Oh, man. When we get to live listener love, we’re bursting. But we’re not doing that now. Okay? Bursting I mean, there’s a lot at first were bursting with live listeners on We’re on Facebook Live to Oh, I guess I should do is all shout out All right, Aunt Mary. Mary Bob Largent. Hello, Rosemary Video. Love to see you. Thank you for being with us on Facebook. Give us give us a little Give us a love on Facebook and I’ll be happy to shout you out. All right, so all right. So the power in nonprofits is maintained by white men. Uh, they’re they’re overwhelmingly the board chairs, the board leadership, the CEOs, the C suite, the senior fundraisers. What’s been your your experience as a black woman doing fundraising in that culture?

[00:32:19.44] spk_0:
Well, coming from Nebraska, how’s it going? And it’s interesting that it is a national issue, is it not? You know, no matter where you are, even in a place is diverse. A ZX New York City. That’s still our reality. And, uh, it’s obvious that, uh, philanthropy would do well from continuing, um, diversity and my experience as an African American woman in the field, you know, You know, this year we did a diversity Brooke and I did a diversity and inclusion task force for wid because we were looking at the room and amazing women. Um, but the room could be a bit more diverse, you know? And so we wanted to think about that. One of the first questions was, you know, is the field already diverse? Does it exist that way? It’s just that people may not, um, come out and aren’t necessarily feeling as welcome for whatever reason, or, um, are they just not there? And so, because of some of these studies that have come out recently, I was I spoke at a case conference and diverse on diversity and fundraising in Indianapolis in April, and that was one of the things we talked about. Is diversifying that pipeline for fundraisers because you don’t necessarily see yourself,

[00:32:47.04] spk_1:
Did you have you come to any conclusions whether it’s, uh, there, there are there is greater representation in fundraising, but people are not coming out or there just isn’t the representation that we’d like to see

[00:32:59.91] spk_0:

[00:33:01.14] spk_1:
It is okay. I kind of think there’s more. The latter. They’re just not just not represented, but

[00:33:26.24] spk_0:
it’s both. It’s both because we have to make those efforts toward diversifying the pipeline. We have to look to the future. We have to look to see what’s happening now. We have to stay self aware and just aware in the profession. Um, and that’s the thing. You know, inclusion is the exact opposite of tokenism. So inclusion means that you’re naturally, organically there. You’re appreciated for what you’re bringing to the table. And when you don’t see diversity, sometimes that doesn’t come to mind. So one of the things with is gonna dio is really focus on that this coming year. And, uh, just make sure it’s on our mind, You know, if you have an opportunity to invite a speaker or toe work with different people and partners, Um, is there someone who’s just disqualified who may be a little more diverse? Um, thinking fairly, you know, they’re just disqualified again. Like I say, it’s not tokenism, but just making sure that’s on your mind, because when something is not on your mind, it’s, um it doesn’t exist. Okay,

[00:34:04.72] spk_1:
right. So, consciousness awareness consciousness. Yes. Critical first step, but necessary, but not sufficient. You know, there needs to be action. They need to be conscious. Action? Yes. Not just policies not just tokenism.

[00:34:40.04] spk_0:
Yes, I’m outcome oriented person. So I believe in the process. But I’m not interested in staying stuck there. So we have some definite recommendations that our task forces made to the board of directors that we’re gonna be implementing in the in the coming year. And so just toe elaborate a bit on my answer to your question. So, yes, there are fundraisers of color in the field, but as the cause effective study shows, you know, Yeah, um, mentor ship professional development, because, you know, they were still underrepresented. There’s more work to be done to get those. You know, um, professionals of color, all of the support that they need to survive and to thrive and at the same time work to be done to develop that pipeline so that we continue that into the future with great consciousness and then being intentional about it.

[00:35:49.54] spk_1:
I know that I personally have been paying more attention to this just within the past two years or so. Um, so but I don’t know if that s Oh, I see. So I Seymour conversations about this, but I don’t know if that’s because I’m participating Mawr and I’m or I’m thinking about it more. I woke. I woke, um, or if the conversations really are happening more frequently and there is greater awareness than there was three years ago, do you? What’s your sense? Do you do you think, Do you think there’s, uh, not not saying sufficient awareness or or action? But you feel like there’s more activity around diversity equity and inclusion now than there was just like three years ago?

[00:35:53.54] spk_0:
I do, yes, and strategically. So you know, I’m a strategic thinker.

[00:35:58.75] spk_1:
Meaning what?

[00:37:11.23] spk_0:
Uh, there’s been a lot that’s been going on for the past few years, but now people are really buckling down their understanding those exact, um, facts and figures and metrics, um, that they want to capture. And then we’re talking to each other more about how to move that forward. There was a great event, um, a week or so ago, on June 18th, it was held at the deep, and we there’s a committee, a host committee. I was on it. Um, one of the lead researchers for the study was on it, um, the a f p person who’s involved with their idea programming. Um, people from case. It was a pretty good host committee of us. And I’m sorry if I’m forgetting anyone and and then, um, on a barber barber as well whose? Ah, noted phenomenal fundraiser. We all got together to get the fundraisers of color together in New York City. And, you know, it was interesting because honest said to me, we’ve been doing this in D. C forever. Can’t believe, you know, like it’s interesting that New York hadn’t done it yet. And so we did. We got it done. We got together, um, divided. We fall united, we stand, and so we’re aware of each other more aware of each other. Now, instead of being siloed and in a vacuum of ourselves, um, for whatever reason, we can come together and work together and push everything forward, move the needle.

[00:37:38.33] spk_1:
Well, that moves that leads to empowerment. Exactly. Were working together. Okay, Um, so now you’re your personal experience as a as a fundraiser. You feel like that’s ah, anomalous for an African American woman? Um,

[00:38:54.82] spk_0:
somewhat I you know, I’ll give the greatest shout out of all to a woman named Lori Krugman from would be remiss if I didn’t mention her name, uh, jokingly call her my would mom. Sometimes she really brought me into the organization and and introduced me to so many different things and people that have to do with fundraising. But it takes a village, no matter what the color that transcends color lines. It takes a village of people sometimes to pull you up to support you, to help you get that professional development and to help you move forward and to encourage you. Um, it’s something that’s on my mind for young women of color. Of course, in the field. It’s something that personally is important to me because I think it does make a difference when you see someone who looks like you, just like, um, not only within the field, but even within your organizations. You know, Um, that kind of had gone over my head at first, and then I had a board member mentioned that to me where I I used to work and they said, You know, a lot of these kids are seeing you, and it makes a difference because they think that the executive offices, or, like the big bosses in the office, is up there in the executive director and all of that. And the fundraisers and philanthropy, That’s a whole other issue within it, you know? Do they really understand that this is a viable profession for them? You know, first, the profession had to get the respect it deserved on and then because, you know, we work hard and we’re educating this, and a lot of us have degrees that are focused upon this. We’ve studied the science of fundraising, and it should be fully respected. They

[00:39:11.86] spk_1:
used to be thinking that these event planners

[00:39:14.05] spk_0:
and right there, just out there

[00:39:17.53] spk_1:
holding your hand out and it just comes

[00:39:19.52] spk_0:
It’s like, No, no, no, no. We work very hard. Um, and so you have to have that first. And now we have to diversify. And we have toe really consider all of the different issues within the field.

[00:39:32.02] spk_1:
Um, the woman who you said you’d be remiss, uh, gave you guidance, Coach? Mentor? Um, she is at a white woman. It is Okay.

[00:39:44.32] spk_0:
Happens to be yes, but I had, um, some really wonderful African American women, obviously, who have been integral to my life. I had, you know, a good balance, but um,

[00:39:56.87] spk_1:
but it’s sharing the power, sharing the power. It’s important to have role models and mentors off of whatever ethnicity. Nationality?

[00:40:21.71] spk_0:
Yeah, we all have to work together. Because if you’re there and if things air imbalanced in the first place, then if white males air really? You know, at the the pinnacle of power, then you know. And what role do white females have Are females of whatever color, but you have to reach back, and you have to help people.

[00:40:34.41] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s why I say share the power. Uh, okay. Um, so you’ve had a, uh you’ve been fortunate and your and your obviously grateful,

[00:40:38.51] spk_0:
and I want to do everything I can for all of the

[00:40:45.92] spk_1:
president of wind. Now, you can lift up others, uh, and they’ll see a black woman in power at wind.

[00:40:50.01] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, I think that makes yeah, it makes a difference.

[00:41:05.21] spk_1:
Um, let’s talk a little about the this cause effective study. Okay. This is, uh, money, power and race. The lived experience of fundraisers of color. Um, are you familiar with what they did? I mean, speak to what they did. What the process was. Just interviews, etcetera. can you

[00:41:21.01] spk_0:
speak to? They did. Ah, lot of in depth work. Um, Judy and Cynthia, if you’re listening, this is the shout out to you. That’s the executive director of cause Effective. And then Cynthia Rhetoric who did a lot of work on that, and she actually engaged me. I was interviewed for this. They worked very hard at getting a diverse array of professionals of color to answer and to participate in the survey. Um, I was, ah, reader at the end as well. Um, another wonderful person. So Neil Omen. Um, I know he was a swell with a f p. And, uh, I’m very happy for them. I’m very proud of them. Of the work that they’ve done. This is a very important study, and I think it’s gonna be helpful. Helpful tool if we don’t set it away, you know, you have to keep these things out and keep

[00:42:23.50] spk_1:
remembering like the strategic plan that goes on the show. Yeah, cause effective, terrific organization. We’ve had guests on, um, Greg Cohen comes to mind he’s been on a couple of times. And then someone who, Uh oh. Now I feel bad. Someone who retired out of cause effective. She’s Greg Cohen’s neighbor in Brooklyn. Because I was out there. I was at their summer party last year, and they shared. There was a back shared backyard thing. Um, it’s not. It wasn’t Judy, though. I feel terrible now, Uh, she’s retired, so she probably doesn’t listen. Well, nobody listens to this show. E

[00:42:33.41] spk_0:
shouldn’t. Yeah, well, you

[00:45:48.49] spk_1:
just told me we’ll take it to make it. Fake it to make it that way. Um, okay, let’s take our let’s take our very last break, okay? And then we’ll talk more about the more about the survey study. Time for our last break. Did you like that? Take to throw back quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our execution team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising towards their goals. Fun indeed. Watching numbers rise two goals dot drives has allowed us to take those relationships and bring them to a deeper level end quote. But there was little commentary in there. I’m sure you, uh you sussed that that was Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is prospect to donor. Simplified. Get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month, all on the listener landing page at. We’ve got but loads more time for this throwback with Yolanda F. Johnson from June 28th 2019 from Opera Singer to fundraiser. All right, now we gotta do the live listener Love. Uh, Steve Cook give you a shoutout on Facebook. Steve Cook joined us on Facebook and let’s let’s start abroad. There’s just so many I’m not even gonna use the languages. Like comes a et cetera. We’re just gonna go through where everybody is. Seoul, South Korea, Denmark. Jakarta, Indonesia. Tashkent, Uzbekistan. Who you’ve been with us before? It was Becca. Stand not the first time. Not not every week. Try to make it a little more regular. There I was. Becca stand. Would you please try? Toe should be with us every single week, but no live. Listen, love Thio. Hochi Minh City in Vietnam. Um, Porto Alegre, Brazil. Whoa! Tehran, Iran. Tehran has been with us before. Yes, not the first time. Glad to have you back. Live love to Tehran on Thio Toronto, Canada And now we made it to North America. So let’s spring in New York, New York. Three people. We’ve got multiple listeners. Looks like three while ago. Uh, right here in the city of New York. Uh, Gillette, New Jersey. We’ve got Brooklyn, New York, in, uh, we’ve got Clifton New Jersey. Wallkill New York. Woodhaven, New York. Bellmore, New York. All right, Staten Island. Staten Island is in Yes. Welcome Staten Island. Live love to Staten Island. So who’s not with us? Bronx and Queens Chicken. Maybe there. Maybe they’re masked. You know what? They could be masked. I’m sure that I’m sure Bronx and Queens are with us. So live listener, love, live love to you. Thank you so much for being with us. And for those of us on those of us those of you with us on Facebook live love to you as well on the podcast. Pleasantries to the to the over 13,000 that I keep saying it’s nowhere near that, but, uh, no, we have 13 over 13,000 podcast listeners. Um, listening in the time shift. Wherever you squeeze us in. I don’t know. Weekends. You binge. Listen, you spend Sunday listening to hours of podcasts on end. Thank you. Pleasantries to you. I’m glad that we’re in your podcast Library. Pleasantries to the podcast, listeners.

[00:45:58.05] spk_0:
Pleasant. That’s one of my It’s almost like a therapy. Oh, it’s almost like the lips, the teeth, the tip of the tongue, the pleasant pleasantries to the podcast Listeners

[00:46:09.22] spk_1:
Podcast pleasantries. I’m a big fan of a big fan of, uh, what did you What was the little phrase you just said? The lips, the teeth, the tip of the tongue, lips, the teeth, The tip of the tongue? Yes. Is that little exercise? Yes, it is. Right before you go on stage,

[00:46:19.26] spk_0:
isn’t just toe enunciate. Like I said, native speakers of English. Sometimes when you’re, uh, enunciating on stage, it could be difficult to decipher what they’re saying. And so a lot of deep bonds going on and what we think is over doing it. But that’s what it takes for the audience to actually hear what we’re saying.

[00:46:38.78] spk_1:
It does the lips, the teeth, the tip of the tongue. Okay, what do you do right before you go on performance, right. The minute before your first appearance on stage. What are you doing as a thing as a singer, I mean, as a Well, I guess there’s any kind of performer. What are you doing in that last minute?

[00:47:01.58] spk_0:
Um, I’m saying a little prayer, okay? And I’m getting excited because I’m ready to share this with the audience.

[00:47:07.99] spk_1:
Your blood pressure’s

[00:47:10.21] spk_0:
sometimes, but not really. I’m pretty. Chill. I’m ready. Thio, go do it. If I’m prepared that I said I will never be that person backstage like, Oh, my gosh. I know I didn’t read any of this stuff, but I sure hope it goes okay, That’s terrible. Um, and so I just It is what it is at that moment, right? And so I just get excited and go out and share it. All right, Well, thank you for sharing a little prayer to Yes, definitely

[00:48:06.27] spk_1:
prayer. Alright. Um okay, So the cause effective study was it was interviews. There were surveys, lots of personal interviews. Yeah, people of color. Remember to stay close to them. There we go. Okay. Well, I wanna hear everything that you say. Um, so they learned some things. Um Why d I is important. This is interesting. Now you’ve mentioned earlier with you said we’d has a diversity and inclusion. You don’t include Uh um equity equity. Uh, it’s an I d I It doesn’t matter. I mean, were you short changing people because you didn’t include the ease?

[00:48:13.95] spk_0:
No equities? Not at all. Um, I guess it could have been a debt if, but it’s a d t i f. Um, the equity is inferred in that. It’s just that it’s not called the d. I think, and people have different thoughts and opinions on what each word means. You know, some people don’t like diversity as much anymore, and they’d rather focus on equity. E

[00:48:32.73] spk_1:
i e I All right. It’s like L g b t q plus. I mean, now we put the plus until it’s all inclusive. Just a part of it. If you’re not LGBT or Q, you’ll have to just be in the plus because okay, what did you say before? D T d t I f

[00:48:47.44] spk_0:
d I T diversity and inclusion task force.

[00:49:27.67] spk_1:
Okay, okay. We have jargon jail on. I hate to see imprisoned even for a short even for a short term. Um, so we know, I think we know why it matters. Um, you know, interesting. Making explicit that money is power. And for fundraisers of color, you know, they’re they’re seeking money from the people who have it, which are largely white and male. So that’s a that creates a dynamic for fundraisers of color that, um, white fundraisers don’t have toe sort of deal with overcome your depending on the opinions of the people they’re trying to get the money from.

[00:50:22.36] spk_0:
Well, and I wanna add to that whole diversity discussion. Donors of color, you know, they’re out there donors of color and tapping into them. You know, just like we have toe work on the pipeline. We have to support people who are already in the field, and we have to think outside of the box. And remember everyone who’s been blessed with, um, the ability to be a philanthropist. And what does that even mean? Now, you know when you think that it’s so pie in the sky, but it’s not. It’s right in front of you to be a philanthropist in many ways. You know, the Indiana University Women’s Philanthropy Institute. We had a partnership event with them in May, where they revealed some of the women give study and, you know, adult in tow. You know, how do you define being a philanthropist? So we have philanthropists of color that need to be tapped into as well That air, um, came be called ignored. Sometimes I think

[00:50:30.26] spk_1:
you find that you feel like we’re not reach. The community is not reaching out toe donors of color wealth, wealthy folks of color.

[00:50:33.78] spk_0:
I think it’s a complex issue, but I think I could say yes to that in some ways. Um, but remember that a donor of color, um, we’ll also have probably had certain life experiences as well. So you know,

[00:50:48.76] spk_1:
it’s Yeah, we’ll have

[00:50:50.06] spk_0:
Yes. Okay.

[00:51:09.32] spk_1:
I feel like we’re not We’re not We’re not getting thio. So I’m surprised that that you find that because if we’re if we’re trying to get support for our organization, I mean, it ought toe come from anybody who has the means exactly the means to support us. E mean, money is color blind.

[00:51:10.57] spk_0:
Amen to

[00:52:05.95] spk_1:
that. Okay, that’s an interesting insight. I never I have to think more about that. Pay more attention. I’ve never. I’ve never thought about that. All right, Uh, you’re full of good ideas. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Uh huh. Mhm. Okay, s. So I think we understand why the, uh d matters like we’ve sort of flush that out. So? So some of what they they say something interesting. Fundraising reflects and magnifies the racial hierarchies of our culture. That’s sort of what we’re scratching at. You know, um, it’s a, you know, fundraising is, uh there’s there’s just inherent, irrespective of people’s color. Uh, there’s it’s a It’s a fundamental power subservient relationship. You have money, and I’m asking for it. I mean, I do fundraising. I do plan to giving fundraising People of wealth have money, and I’m pursuing it. Eso there’s

[00:52:09.78] spk_0:
you’re definitely pursuing people that have a certain amount of

[00:52:12.27] spk_1:
Yeah, Well, now, modest people of modest means could do plan. Gift to That’s true. Let’s not forget, okay? Actually, just like anybody could put will request for 1000 or $5000 in there will

[00:52:22.92] spk_0:
probably And that goes to the same point of What does it mean to be a philanthropist? You know, if you’re giving $500 whatever you have to give. You’re still helping a cause. It matters.

[00:52:31.45] spk_1:
A lot of people don’t think of themselves as philanthropists, but they indeed they are. It doesn’t really matter. I mean, they’re supporting organizations. But people who write $20 checks, $50 checks, they don’t they don’t think of themselves as philanthropists.

[00:52:43.42] spk_0:
And I think that’s what I you is trying to get people to think differently, especially with women donors toe value yourself and to understand, um, that contribution that that you’re making to society through whatever

[00:52:54.68] spk_1:
the size well, they understand they’re contributing. What what’s the importance of? You could educate me again. Eso I’m trainable just need the ideas. What? What? What’s the importance then of them recognizing themselves as philanthropists?

[00:53:08.25] spk_0:
Because it empowers you in a different way. When I see myself a certain way, um, it allows me toe think differently. And when I’m making those decisions, uh, it might allow me toe to get involved with an organization on a deeper level on bring in my network. You know, we could talk about give and get so it can be open lots of different doors and just change the way that people think about themselves and about, um, the ways that they give.

[00:53:33.59] spk_1:
So we should be encouraging our donors to think of themselves as philanthropists. Yeah, including the 20 and $50 donors.

[00:53:39.70] spk_0:
You’re a philanthropist, and we appreciate your gift and

[00:53:42.96] spk_1:
that. Well, there’s always that. Yeah. I’m just trying to distinguish the philanthropy. Think of yourself as a philanthropy. Yes.

[00:53:48.55] spk_0:
And then, you know, it’s that strategic thinking. So, you know, it’s that same story of the whoever it is the janitor, somebody who passes away and leaves five million

[00:53:57.54] spk_1:
dollars right there lived a very modest life. They 40 year old car, they were driving or whatever, right? And then they have millions of dollars to leave. You

[00:54:04.70] spk_0:
never know you can you never. You can’t judge a book by its cover. And so you never know what’s going on. You treat everybody with dignity and respect and appreciate their gift. And you never know what network they might bring in or, um, people they can introduce you to.

[00:55:00.94] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s all true. Yeah, it’s just a philanthropist thing. Getting getting your modest donors small dollar donors to think of themselves as philanthropists. Interesting. Okay. Um, all right, So this is the, uh, talking about the magnifying, the racial hierarchies. Um, and we just have a couple minutes left. All right, so let’s leave the survey. That’s enough of that survey. Yeah. So, again, it’s money, power and race. The lived experience of fundraisers of color. It’s published by cause effective, which is, I believe it’s cost effective dot or ge. And now that you have the name of the survey study, you should have no trouble, obviously finding it and check it out. Okay, Um, a couple minutes left as, ah, professional woman in in fund raising your own practice, What would you like? Thio? Would you like to leave our listeners with?

[00:55:48.99] spk_0:
Well, um, I just like to reiterate how honored I am to be leading with in this 40th anniversary year. I’m excited about I’m continuing the work of my practice. We already talked a bit about events, and I also specialize in campaigns and in going in and assessing what’s happening with small and medium sized development departments and helping them to get to the next level. So I look forward to continuing all of that work. Um, and I also look forward to continuing singing have a vocal workshop coming up in a couple of weeks. And then, of course, the console again August 10th at the amphitheater at the Hudson River Museum. And it’s gonna be It’s deep, you know, using music, using art as that medium to spark the dialogue, the conversation, the thought about these current issues and you cannot make. Yeah, you can’t make this up, though. The libretto has not been changed. It’s 70 years old, and it could have been on the news last week.

[00:56:12.03] spk_1:
Really, it’s fast. Okay, when does when’s the opening?

[00:56:14.63] spk_0:
It’s when we talk. It’s a one night only thing. It’s August 10th 8 p.m. August 10

[00:56:18.42] spk_1:
2019. If you’re in the New York City area,

[00:56:21.10] spk_0:
check Yolanda. If johnson dot com

[00:57:34.32] spk_1:
Please Dio. That’s who she is. She is. Hold on to F. Johnson. Her company is Y F. J Eyes. Her company is at Y. F. J hyphen consulting dot com. Women in Development. You’ll find that W I D n Y dot or GE, and she is at Yolanda F. Johnson and thank you so much. My privilege. I’m back. It’s February 2021. Now, next week riel listening. Let’s talk. My guest will be Emily Taylor. If you missed any part of this week’s show from 2019, I beseech you, find it at dot com were sponsored by Turn to Communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Prospect to donor Simplified Our creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that information, Scotty, do with me next week for big ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for February 1, 2021: Communications Trends Report

My Guest:

Kivi Leroux Miller: Communications Trends Report

Kivi Leroux Miller returns to share her 11th annual, Nonprofit Communications Trends Report, released just last week. She walks us through the impact of the pandemic, the resurgence of email, email best practices, CALM, leading a Girl Scout troop, and more. Kivi is CEO of Nonprofit Marketing Guide.



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[00:02:13.44] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with hantavirus pulmonary syndrome if you got ratted out that you missed this week’s show Communications trends report. Kimmy LaRue Miller returns to share her 11th annual non profit Communications Trends report, released just last week. We talk about the impact of the pandemic, the resurgence of email, email, best practices, leading a Girl Scout troop and a lot more tony steak, too. The people are seizing power were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Prospect to donor. Simplified here is communications trends. Report. What a pleasure to welcome back to non profit radio Kivi LaRue Miller. She is founder and CEO of non profit Marketing Guide, helping hundreds of non profit communicators and participants in the communications director mentoring program. Each year, she called leads a Girl Scout troop and is president of the Lexington Farmers Market Association in Lexington, North Carolina. She also co founded Grow and Go Girls, a small bakery where all net profits go into a travel fund for a group of small town girls to travel. The big World non profit Marketing Guide is that non profit marketing guide dot com? Where else would you expect it from a master communicator? Where else would it be? And at N p m k t g d. I’m not sure about that one. Kivi is at V l m. Welcome back to the show,

[00:02:19.89] spk_0:
Kivi. Thank you, tony. I’m glad to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you

[00:02:23.39] spk_1:
back. You got a little screwed on your Twitter handle for non profit

[00:02:27.08] spk_0:
marketing. You know, it’s too many letters that profit marketing God is just ridiculously log. So you gotta abbreviate these things.

[00:02:43.94] spk_1:
N p m k T g d. I’ll find you on T V l m get you there. All right. Um, what about this Girl Scout troop? What’s that? Like hurting a bunch of girls through a pandemic? Uh,

[00:02:55.57] spk_0:
well, we’re just grateful that the big trip we’re working towards us in 2022. So 20 we will be going to bullies in 2022. God willing so, you know. Yeah, it’ll be a 10 day trip. They are all ninth and 10th graders that we’ve had with us since they were little itty bitty brownies and Daisy Girl Scouts. So, um, it’s great. It’s great. We started the baking business to help them earn more money because you can really only earn so much via Girl Scout cookie sales. But we’re also doing that, too. So it’s alright.

[00:03:23.97] spk_1:
So is an adjunct to the Girl Scout cookies. You’re you’re baking your own throughout. Yes, yes, that’s a short term

[00:03:30.11] spk_0:
campaign. Exactly It Z

[00:03:33.24] spk_1:
is there a brick and mortar store? Thio grow and Go girls.

[00:03:36.32] spk_0:
Well, we participated the farmer’s market six months out of the year. So they have a booth at the farmer’s market. And, uh, we did a little renovation in a building that used to be my father laws electrical shop. So they have a little kitchen out in our backyard, and they do bread and cakes and all kinds of delicious,

[00:03:53.74] spk_1:
so they don’t have to do it in their own home. You have ah,

[00:03:56.28] spk_0:
commercial. We have a state approved home kitchen. Yes, so they can stand that they can sell their stuff legally.

[00:04:05.34] spk_1:
How big is the Girl Scout troop?

[00:04:07.48] spk_0:
It is six girls.

[00:04:09.94] spk_1:
That’s outstanding. Alright, that’s a smaller troop. It’s a small,

[00:04:14.34] spk_0:
uh and you know, the girls they tend to drop out of girl scouts is they get a little older. I think the same is true with boy Scouts to, uh, the promise of international travel is what’s kept them all super engaged in girls

[00:04:26.43] spk_1:
who have Teoh. You have to bake a certain number of gross gross number of dozens or something to get to qualify for your bellies trip. No es somebody somebody brownies.

[00:04:41.04] spk_0:
They’re doing really well. There, there, you know, they’re They’re making significantly more money at the farmers market than we do for the cookie sale. I’ll just leave it at that. We’re gonna be fine. They’re gonna have a great trip. So,

[00:04:49.79] spk_1:
Lisa, what a wonderful exotic place to go.

[00:04:52.54] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:53.82] spk_1:
You need any male?

[00:04:55.45] spk_0:
Uh, schedule is very flexible. We’ll put you on the wait list. Tony.

[00:05:08.14] spk_1:
It really wouldn’t matter when you’re going. I know I could accommodate it. Very flexible schedule. Believes I would love. Yeah, Wonderful. Um and so how about the girls through the pandemic. Well, what’s what’s that like right now?

[00:05:32.24] spk_0:
It’s tough, you know? I mean, they’re all doing online schooling, so they don’t really want to get on Zoom to do Girl Scouts. So we we occasionally do things outside, whether permitting, you know, here in North Carolina, it’s not totally frozen out. It’s certainly a little too cold right now, but, um, we were doing some things outdoors with them. It’s a small enough group that we could meet outside. All

[00:05:39.16] spk_1:
right. Wonderful commitment to non profits. You got. You got a bakery. They got the farmer’s market. I love farmers markets. When I lived in New York City, I would look forward to Saturday Farmers markets.

[00:05:49.54] spk_0:
Oh, yeah? Well, New York City got some

[00:05:51.40] spk_1:
amazing one. Yeah, they do. But now here in Emerald Isle, North Carolina, I could just go to the farm stands. There is a There is a local farmers market a couple towns away, but it’s only every other week, you know? So all the farmers are together in a big lot, but But otherwise, you know, we have the luxury of farm stands. I mean, I could go to my favorite please get my apples in the winter. Get my straw. Get my strawberries. Starting in like April May uh, for my favorite You pick place. You go right to the farmers here in North

[00:06:19.19] spk_0:
Carolina. Right? We’ve got lots of lots of roadside stands and curb markets. All kinds of choices

[00:06:26.06] spk_1:
stuff so But I admire your You have a six month, six year, six months a year farmers market in Lexington too.

[00:06:33.54] spk_0:
Yeah, made October. So being a communications professional, I got roped into being on the board. Shocker. Eso now. So now the president of the board

[00:06:45.24] spk_1:
another? Well, food, food, food. Uh, the emergence of girls as leaders.

[00:06:51.94] spk_0:

[00:07:19.34] spk_1:
that’s all. Great baking. You got your food component. It’s You’re staying active. Alright, so let’s talk about the trends report. Um, coming out Well, by the time we record is just last week, it z Tomorrow, as we’re recording, congratulations on 11 annual reports. Thank you. Uh, this was presumed this was an unprecedented one. I mean, you had the we had the recession, but that’s that Z not as significant as the pandemic.

[00:07:38.74] spk_0:
Right? And so, you know, we we there are sets of questions that we ask every other year. So we stuck with some of those. But then we did shift it up a little bit and asked a number of questions. Specifically related. Thio. How people, Whether the pandemic in 2020 and I suspect given how things were going this year, we may ask some of those questions again. Next year is well, since I think we’ll be living with this through 2021 as well.

[00:07:48.84] spk_1:
Uh, certainly a good part of it. Yes. Uh, So what What’s your What’s your like number one take away from from this year’s report?

[00:08:17.24] spk_0:
Well, you know, I think, Ah, a lot of people did really well Ah, lot of nonprofits did really well in a lot of non profits did not do well, And I think there’s a There’s a pretty big stark contrast between the ones that were able to really pivot. I know that everybody hates that word now, but, uh, really pivot in to do things differently. And to do that successfully and the ones that were really just kind of stuck and paralyzed by all of the change that was thrust upon them

[00:08:32.64] spk_1:
and your you have your acronym for what characterizes those who distinguishes those who did well from those who didn’t.

[00:09:18.34] spk_0:
Yes, yes. So we the way that we talk about communications, management frameworks and and effectiveness is calm and calm stands for collaborative, agile, logical and methodical. And that is true. Pandemic or no, the organizations that really embrace those for qualities and the way they manage their communications work are always more successful than those who don’t. And you know, I was very curious to see if that would have an impact if the if that mattered or not in 2020 and in fact it mattered quite a bit. Based on our survey results, it’s time for a break

[00:09:55.74] spk_1:
turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch, The Chronicle of Philanthropy You want to be in media outlets like this. Turn two has the relationships with outlets like these, so that when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turned to turn two calls you because they know you because they’re your their client. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Now back to communications trends report. Um, I don’t suppose you consider bomb I was thinking a bomb like bold, bold, agile, logical, methodical.

[00:10:03.04] spk_0:
We’re going. We’re going with com e like bomb, too, but, you know, already wrote the column. Not busy book, tony. So late on your A little late on your assistance with the acronym there.

[00:10:13.74] spk_1:
Well, I wasn’t. My opinion wasn’t solicit. Well, that’s my opinion. Wasn’t solicited 30 seconds ago. And you got anyway, so that doesn’t hold me back. All right, we’ll stick with bomb. No, you’ve been with You’ve been with calm for years. Of course. E. I was thinking balmy. You put a y in maybe.

[00:10:28.64] spk_0:
Yes. Okay. This is you living at the beach. Be

[00:10:32.73] spk_1:
for beach. Alright. So let’s let’s define com for folks who are not part of the non profit marketing guide community. And then we’ll talk about how that how that helped folks during the pandemic. So your collaborative, agile, logical and methodical What

[00:11:18.50] spk_0:
do you mean so collaborative? When you are being collaborative us, the communication staff are working with your management team with your program ah, leaders with your fundraisers, if those are on a different team and really collaboratively developing and implementing a communications plan. In contrast, to that. We often see communication staff that are just sort of thrown in the quarter by themselves, and they only communicate with others when those people are coming to dump work on their lap. Yes, yes, it’s so. You know, we use a lot of metaphors, that non profit marketing guide. So the metaphor for this is like, Are you the drive thru fast food window where people are just coming and barking orders at you? And then you have to turn around and quickly deliver a somewhat mediocre product often, um, or are you more like a You know, a nice restaurant where people are coming in and sitting down and having conversations about what they’re going to eat, and it’s more of a collaborative, high quality product at the end.

[00:11:46.09] spk_1:
You can even bring over the Somalia if you wanna. You wanna high end wine choice

[00:12:56.54] spk_0:
right? It’s a little different than just the like barking orders and get in the back of seat out the window, so that’s collaborative. When we talk about agility, it’s really about trust. Ultimately, so do the managers of the organization. The program managers trust the communication staff, trust their ability to do a good job, trust their intentions and supporting the goals of the organization or not. And when that trust is there, the communication staff have the ability to really be responsive to what’s happening in the world. And to do that very quickly and to have their professional judgment about how to make those changes be trusted and followed through. They are the experts on a lot of the communications work. You know, a lot of executive directors come up through the program side. They don’t know anything about marketing on dso. You know, the agility really comes and building those trusting relationships and trusting the professionalism of the communications staff again. On the flip side, as you can imagine, when that trust is not in place, there is tons of second guessing what the communications staff are recommending. There is a really inability to make a fast decision. Uh, people just get really paralyzed. And I think we saw a lot of that, um, paralysis and decision making, uh, in the comments that we saw in the trends report.

[00:13:23.54] spk_1:
Okay, how about logical? Methodical?

[00:13:57.44] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a logical is all about. Does your communications plan makes sense for what you’re trying to achieve. So when we talk about you know what is your objective? What are you really trying to accomplish with your communications? Have you thought that through, or are you just making all the things? So the people who I would say are less logical are the ones that air just doing the stuff, putting this stuff online because that’s what you dio the people who are more logical, understand what they’re actually trying to achieve through their communications and methodical is really about workflow and process. It’s kind of the boring stuff, in a way, but it’s the it’s the kind of secret sauce. It’s the things that we tend to geek out on most at non profit marketing guide. So things like Do you have an editorial calendar? Have you talked about the process by which people will create drafts and who’s gonna edit those things? And who has final say, How many times do people get to see things? Or is it just these endless review loops, you know? Is there a style guide all of these sort of process and workflow things that keep communications moving and produce high quality product relatively quickly

[00:14:37.73] spk_1:
keep things orderly.

[00:14:39.32] spk_0:
Exactly. Exactly. And so again, organizations that don’t have that in play, um, tend to be the communication staff that burn out very quickly on get very unhappy on Don’t produce good results because it’s really just kind of chaos And how stuff is produced and approved and published,

[00:15:14.64] spk_1:
Right? So what was Cem? Were some bad Some bad spots? Or maybe still are. I mean, we’re still in a pandemic. Of course. Right. Um well, uh, I was like, I want to end with Yeah, I wanna end on the upward trend. You gotta start low. What are some? And and of course, you learn from mistakes, too. I mean, this is basically asking what not to do when when your besieged by by a crisis at your non profit or worldwide, you know, what should we be avoiding? So what do we see? That’s not such That’s such good work,

[00:17:21.24] spk_0:
right? So we asked people to explain in their own words. You know what we’re what? Problems were exacerbated by the pandemic. So we were We were assuming that some of these things were kind of already in play, and then the pandemic made the worst so well, that’s how we asked the question. And so we saw a number of themes come out from those answers. One won’t be a big surprise to anybody that’s been working in our sector a long time. The having to cancel all those in person events was obviously traumatic for everyone. Whether you were successful in doing something different or not, there was a big split there. So the organizations, like I said that are not calm in particular, not agile, ended up just canceling and not really doing a lot of replacements or took a very long time to make those decisions. So staff were just constantly scrambling around and there was a lot of mixed communication and a lot of confusion. Um, so you know, that was a problem. We also saw. You know, a lot of organizations have not invested into their digital communication strategies. They have old, clunky websites. Uh, their email lists are pretty small or un engaged. And so when we really had to shift to more of those communications channels, a lot of organizations just weren’t ready for that, and, um then failed toe move quickly. Again, it goes back to that agility and be able to make fast decisions and to ramp things up quickly. And they just weren’t able to do that. We saw a lot of people complaining about additional sort of crisis. Communications associated with the pandemic piled onto the workload, but nothing being taken off the plate. So this sort of ignoring the reality that everything was changing pretending like they were going to keep doing things, Um and and just not really changing quickly.

[00:17:45.24] spk_1:
Do you know how this cuts across? Um, organization size,

[00:18:28.44] spk_0:
You know, we have found in our research. And it was true this year that the organization size by itself doesn’t make that much of a difference. Nor does the mission over the organization or where they’re located. Um, the things that really make a difference are the communications team size, which does not necessarily track with organization size. So you have some very large 10 $20 million organizations and bigger that have a single communications staff person. So those two don’t necessarily track. Okay, so it’s really across the sector. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:32.74] spk_1:
How could How could an organization be that big? I mean, $10 million organization with a single communications director. I mean, a person. How can that function organization with that much staff and that much activity? And there’s just one person talking to all their constituencies.

[00:19:28.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Yes, it does. It does. It does No. And you know, how are they doing that? Well, in a lot of cases, they’re not doing it very low. Um, and in other cases, you know, it’s just it comes down to how they view the role of communications. And and so if they think that, well, all of our program staff are capable of communicating, uh, then you know, they’ll just have that one person that basically tries to play traffic cop with everybody else putting stuff out. But when you know, you take a look at how those organizations were performing, it’s usually not fabulous. Um, you know, some organizations have more need for communications than others.

[00:19:33.04] spk_1:
How about one of your questions reveals level of control that you have over your workload.

[00:19:39.84] spk_0:

[00:19:40.96] spk_1:
do you What do you I guess. What have you seen over time and what we’re seeing now in this report?

[00:21:32.64] spk_0:
So that is definitely one of those indicators that we look for when I’m coaching communications directors. It’s one of the first questions I ask, because it really gives you a sense for whether, um, they could be strategic or not. If they if they feel like they have some level of control, then that tells me that they are willing to say no to requests. Or maybe not yet. Or maybe if you know, they can push back on it. Just the overwhelming number of requests that air. It’s just endemic to our sector, like the communications have always being asked to do more than they can. So whether they have the control to really be strategic about what they actually dio and what they say no to or push off is a pretty big indicator for us about whether they’re going to be successful, long term or not. And, of course, in the pandemic, we did ask people, uh, if something’s changed. So we saw more planning, more collaboration, but basically less or the same amount of a feeling of control. And I think some of that is natural, like all of us are in this pandemic. And you know, none of us have control over the pandemic. But um do you have control over your reaction to the pandemic and your response to it? And so you know, we would like to see more people saying Yes, you know, I had a role in deciding the strategy going forward. That wasn’t always the case, you know, in part again because of the I think that our over reliance on in person events and the sector is a big part of this with canceling all of those events or putting them online. That was a huge communications lift for non profits. We’ll see if you know now that people have some experience with the online events there. We’re seeing a lot of organizations that are getting better engagement now reaching out to different kinds of folks through the online events that they didn’t get to the in person. So I think it’ll be really interesting to see a year or two or three from now what that mixes between in person and online events.

[00:22:37.04] spk_1:
You know, folks have been talking for years about diversifying beyond events. Those conversations were always focused around the value of having different streams of revenue, whether it’s earned income, individual giving, corporate Azaz event sponsorship monthly sustaining etcetera. So, you know, obviously nobody anticipated they’re being a Nev ent. That would cause all events to be canceled. But it certainly does go again to the the value of diversification in in all realms, whether it tze fundraising or communications channels. Um, you know, it’s it’s risky to be to be dependent on 11 source of In this case, we’re talking about one source of revenue and it all be events. And plus we know how much time events take versus return on a lot of

[00:22:48.26] spk_0:
them. Exactly. And, you know, again, this sort of goes back to the logical. It’s like how many of these organizations were actually paying attention to just how effective those events were with that are Oh, I was. A lot of them aren’t paying attention to how much staff time is included, or they only pay attention to the event coordinator. They don’t add in all the communications time associated with marketing those events. So I do hope nonprofits will take a much closer look before they just sort of revert back to what they used to Dio.

[00:23:26.94] spk_1:
Yeah, good. Critical. Look. Right. All right. So we know that the organizations that maybe maybe thrived is overstating it but succeeded during the pandemic. Those are those are the calm

[00:23:30.59] spk_0:

[00:26:31.44] spk_1:
It’s time for tony. Take two. The people have seized power. My concern is that non profits are not exempt. Stopping the work of the U. S. Congress seizing the capital. Five people dead, maybe even more now. Ah, suicide from one by one of the officers. And just this week bringing Wall Street hedge funds to their knees so that they needed many billions of dollars of infused capital. Thio keep them going. Groups of people are organizing collective izing and seizing power, seizing it from Washington, seizing it from Wall Street. My concern is that nonprofits are not exempt a crowd. However they put themselves together, however they organize could easily see that or could easily decide that your good work isn’t so good to them. That might look like some kind of attack on your website. It could even look like an attack on a physical office. I mean, does that really seem impossible now? So these air my concerns that the non profit community we need to be planning for the possibility that these insurgency’s hit us hit our organizations. I don’t think it’s so far fetched. Folks are seizing power from institutions and nonprofits, our institutions. So I just want you to be thinking about it. Planning for it. I don’t know how overt overtly you plan. I mean, certainly in terms of disaster recovery communications, you don’t know when it’s gonna happen. In it happens. I think in an instant I just wanted folks to be conscious of it. That’s all that the non profit community isn’t, isn’t isolated and is not immune from the whims of large groups. That is tony steak, too. Now, let us return to communications trends report with Kivi LaRue. Miller, you wanna you got a story of or a case you can share of somebody. That was some organization that was exemplified. Calm

[00:26:37.49] spk_0:
calmness. Sure. So we we saw a number of people talk about, um they’re essentially their leadership team, sort of stepping up and saying yes. Now I’m ready to listen, and I’m ready to invest because their hands were really forced, right? So you know whether it may have been a little collaboration before, we did see a number of organizations really step up from the programmatic management side as well, a sort of the executive director side and say, Okay, we’re with You were ready. What do you need? And so those organizations that really gave that attention and time and resource is to their communications staff. We’re able to really make some great things happen. And we saw a number of organizations really beat their fundraising goals, beat their community engagement goals. Um, so you know, it really speaks to having that sort of full collaboration across the organization around those strategic communications goals.

[00:27:38.04] spk_1:
Talk about engagement a little more now. You mentioned twice. You’ve some organizations. So higher rates of engagement in the pandemic. What what was what were they doing that caused that?

[00:29:56.54] spk_0:
So when we talk about engagement, it’s It’s almost like everything other than fundraising, right? So a lot of people are communicating for fundraising goals, but about half of non profit communicators don’t actually consider fundraising to be a primary goal for them. What they’re usually trying to do instead is the sort of big term community engagement, so it’s trying to get it depends on the organization, but for some of them, it’s people that are actually using their programs, and service is so recruiting them and keeping those people engaged in in those service is other people. It’s more of an advocacy or education or awareness kind of engagement where they’re trying to get people to care mawr or to think differently or act differently on different issues. Um, so you know, we saw a lot of successful organizations really experimenting this year, particularly with moving events online and the ones that were really willing to try some new things, I would say moving events online. We saw a lot more people talk about video this year than we ever have. We have been, you know, preaching video as engaging online content for many years now. But, you know, it’s kind of hard, and people get nervous about being on camera on DSO. The pandemic has really again sort of taken that barrier away. And we saw a number of organizations say, You know, I could never get my program staff to do a video for me before they just always No, no, no, no, no. And now they’re you know, people are used to being on Zoom. They’re more comfortable using their own phones to video themselves. So now we’re seeing tons more program staff, cooperating with their communications departments on creating video in particular. So that’s been really nice to, um, you know, just mawr attention to the online channels in General Thio email to social media. Whereas those might have been considered sort of nice toe have sorts of things before now. Leaders we’re really seeing them is essential tools to communicate for fundraising and engagement. Instead, attention is nice.

[00:30:15.24] spk_1:
The attention is nice. Yeah, leads. Thio leads to calm leader leaders got dragged by the pandemic. Thio Thio. Execute what you’ve been saying for for years. Be calm. Let’s be calm. Email. You got a lot to say about email. Email is not dead by any means, but no, no, not only not dead, but it’s resurging. You’ve got ideas around anybody. All right, so first, let’s start with the resurgence of email. What happened?

[00:31:30.84] spk_0:
Yes, so you know, for as we said, this is the 11th year of the trends report and then the first five or so we you know, every year we would ask Okay, what is your most important communications channels? And we kept getting the same answers every year. It got kind of boring. So we stopped asking. So we haven’t really asked in five years. And the last time we asked, you know, websites were always number one and then email and social media kind of flip flop between two and three. Well, so we waited five years, we asked. Email is now number one, and I don’t think that’s just because of the pandemic. I think in part it’s because, you know, it’s still a direct way to communicate with people, unlike the website, which you sort of have to draw people to. But you have so much more control with email than you do with social media, you never know what Zuckerberg and all the rest of them are going to do with their algorithms and what changes they’re gonna make to the way. Yeah, you know. So it’s extremely frustrating for folks. Um, so, you know, it makes a lot of sense that email is now number one. But there’s some problems too now, I

[00:31:45.54] spk_1:
see. Yeah. Um Okay, well, you’re the guest. So you talk about the problems, I cease? Um, e c. Some dissonance between importance and use, but we’ll get to that talk about the problems that you see with email, please.

[00:33:29.54] spk_0:
So there are a lot of best practices associated with email, and this is true for anybody that’s using mass email, not just the nonprofit sector. So managing your email list, for example, paying attention when people stop opening, you really have to stop emailing them. Um, it goes into what’s called your sender reputation, and that effects how often your stuff shows up in the spam folder. And I don’t think nonprofits really appreciate that. There are these algorithms at work, much like there are in social media, where the inbox providers. So the Google’s and Microsoft’s of the world are deciding whether to send your email to spam or not. And, um, you know, I bet tony, if you look at your inbox, I know I see this. When I look at my inbox, I’m subscribed to a lot of different non profit newsletters, etcetera. Sometimes those things show up in my inbox and other times, same organization. It will show up in my spam folder, and I honestly never go look in my spam folder unless someone has told me I missed something or I’m trying to do some research like this. So a lot of non profit content is going to spam. How do we stop that? Well, there are a number of best practices, and unfortunately, in our surveys both this year and last year, you know, maybe 25%. Maybe a third of nonprofits are implementing those different best practices. The overwhelming majority of nonprofits are not doing it. So while email is becoming more important, the likelihood that you’re nonprofits email is going into that spam filter is going up a ZX.

[00:33:30.53] spk_1:
Well, all right. Um, personalization s. So we got to talk about the things that that are simple organizations should be doing thio over. Overcome the the algorithm, the spam filter algorithms personalizing. You mentioned personalizing subject lines. Even

[00:33:50.24] spk_0:
so, is that your name

[00:33:52.55] spk_1:
in the subject line?

[00:33:54.84] spk_0:
Sure. So that’s one way you could do it. Another way to do it is to like if it’s a fundraising email is thio put in the body of the email? What? Their last gift, waas or the last time they gave? If depending on how robust your data tracking is, you may know which programs people care about the most. And so another way to personalize email is to, you know, send them the content that they care most about. You know, we just sort of simplify it. We say, Okay, if you’re a humane society, like, who are your cat? People who’re your dog? People like you want to put the dog photos and the dog people emails and the cat photos and the other one’s

[00:34:31.12] spk_1:

[00:34:43.54] spk_0:
Exactly. So that’s kind of all related to personalization. And we do see nonprofits doing that of of all the different things we asked about. The majority of nonprofits have tried some level of personalization, so that’s a positive for

[00:34:48.48] spk_1:
sure. I see you have 59% but we’re still missing for that. We’re still missing 41%. Yes, like 40% of non profit. They’re not doing that

[00:35:00.14] spk_0:
right. All right,

[00:35:01.04] spk_1:
I’m not I’m not focusing on the negative, but, you know, pointing out everybody is not. This is That’s a pretty simple practice, like Hello, you know, first name code. You know, that’s not hard. I mean, even I do that.

[00:35:23.74] spk_0:
It’s it’s not hard, you know. The thing is, it’s like it’s it’s more than just copying and pasting email template and going right. You have to pay attention. And but

[00:35:25.05] spk_1:
there’s value in doing

[00:35:33.94] spk_0:
so. Yes, you have to test it. But it’s time consuming. Like all of these little extra things, you have to dio take time. And so if you’re super busy and dot com, you don’t have the

[00:35:43.84] spk_1:
time. You’re the one person, the one person shopping, a $10 million organization. You don’t have time for the 1st 1st name code,

[00:35:55.64] spk_0:
right? And then also, you know, to really do that, you have to have confidence in the data. So if you have a really messy old database, it could be a little scary to think about what they might be merging into that first name slot.

[00:36:01.19] spk_1:
It might be a letter, right?

[00:36:03.63] spk_0:
Yeah, I could

[00:36:05.81] spk_1:
be any name,

[00:36:06.42] spk_0:
or it could be nothing. You know, you might not even have first names in your database, so yeah, so it could be a mess.

[00:36:17.33] spk_1:
Alright, Data integrity. What else s O A. B testing is another common simple that you mentioned it. You could test subject lines. You could test just about anything the color of the, uh, color of the give now button the body of the text, the photos, the videos.

[00:36:48.83] spk_0:
Yeah, and the email service providers. Most of them are making that a little easier, but again, it’s an extra step you have to take. And then you have to sort of think about Okay, What makes sense to test? How do I keep track of all this? It sounds like you’re

[00:36:49.92] spk_1:
you’re very empathetic.

[00:36:51.77] spk_0:

[00:37:03.13] spk_1:
do for the I can see it. E c it, I hear it do. I’m sure listeners gonna hear it. So what do you do for the one person in the $10 million organization who can’t find the time or doesn’t feel she confined the time and which means she can’t? She feels she can’t. We’re not looking at it objectively. Subjectively perception. Find the time for the for the first name code. How do you meet that person where they are?

[00:38:21.42] spk_0:
Well, what we talk about is really getting riel about their workload. They’re often trying to do too much, Um, and to manage too many channels and talk about too many different things. And they don’t have the trust. They don’t have that ability to say no or not yet. So we go back to basic boundaries, you know, I mean, all of us that do any kind of coaching work ultimately end up talking about boundaries, what the people were coaching because so much of that comes back to people sort of personal control and agency and ability to say yes or no to things. And so that’s usually where I start. And then once I can help them kind of get rid of some of the noise that’s not really contributing to success or to just give them the confidence that they’re not going to get fired by saying no to something stupid within their organizations. Um, then we can talk about, you know? Okay, if we can just get two hours a week, we can implement a lot of these best practices that are going to make a huge difference. It really doesn’t take that much time. It’s just kind of getting over that hump.

[00:38:23.42] spk_1:
What about advocating for more help for these beleaguered communications directors? Do you talk about trying to make the case toe leadership absolute for adding another person who’s a professional

[00:38:36.37] spk_0:
community? Yes, absolutely. We talked about that a lot Andi and we’re seeing some of that, you know, like we do a number of different coaching programs and I’m just starting a new group. And there are a number of people in that group that are growing their team from 2 to 4 or 3 to 5, even because they were finally able to make that case.

[00:39:01.22] spk_1:
How about when it just comes down to This isn’t direct place for you. You just You just should leave E mean your coach, and you have to be

[00:39:05.85] spk_0:

[00:39:07.82] spk_1:
good for the good of right,

[00:39:10.72] spk_0:
right? It’s It’s one of the secrets of our training and coaching programs that we don’t advertise. So, yeah, just for you, tony and your listeners. But, um, you know, lots of times, we’ll get nonprofits that pay for training and coaching with us, and then I end up encouraging those people to find another job, and they do. They they you know, they realize that they’re working in an environment that is not supportive and that there are lots of other opportunities to work in an environment that is supportive, and they go find those jobs so

[00:39:44.12] spk_1:
well. Our listeners are the CEOs, so they could be on that side of it. But our listeners are also focusing communications, and they may be beleaguered. And so they need to know the the range of opportunity available to them. Of course, yeah, waiting, that’s the last. That’s the last step After you.

[00:40:01.44] spk_0:
It is, but, you know, but

[00:40:07.81] spk_1:
other less drastic methods. But But it has, uh, it’s a possibility,

[00:40:08.72] spk_0:
right? And, you know, I think we all know there are some really bad managers in our sector, just like there’s bad managers in every sector. Just because we’re trying to do good doesn’t mean that, you know, everybody is a perfect human being who’s got all kinds of training and how to be an exceptional manager. That’s just not the case.

[00:41:34.11] spk_1:
Yes, I’ve heard rumors to that effect. Yes, yeah, time for our last break. Quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our executive team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising toward their goals. DOT drives has allowed us to take those key relationships and bring them to a deeper level and quote, that is Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is dot drives Prospect to donor. Simplified. You get the free demo, and for listeners, there’s a free month. You do that at the listener landing page. Tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time. I’m glad of that. We got, but loads more time for communications trends. Report. You got one more that I really like, uh, welcoming, welcoming and re engaging campaigns around. Email s. So if you have a lackluster list that’s not engaged on and to bring people on board the on board them to your to your organization talk about those those two potentials.

[00:41:45.81] spk_0:
Yeah, these air super easy things again like it doesn’t take. It’s not a lot of time on going. It’s a It’s a little bit of time up front, right? It’s one of these prevention kind of things, like you do the thing up front so that you don’t have to worry about the problems later. So there’s some things you could do with your list to keep the vaccination

[00:41:59.92] spk_1:
your vaccination and then you need occasional childhood boosters

[00:42:03.38] spk_0:
exactly. So Okay, so we’ll stick with your metaphor here. So you’re welcome. Syriza’s your vaccination, right? Someone gets on your list. The hard part is really done. How do you keep them on the list? So the welcome Siri’s? It’s just a quick Siri’s. We recommend three emails over the course of a week or 10 days, where you really just sort of introduce people more to the organization and how they can be involved. You really want to get them excited about this new relationship and try to build that relationship. And so there are a lot of different approaches that you could take to a welcome Siri’s. But the idea is that you’re really trying to say, Hey, we see you, We’re glad you’re here. Let’s do some amazing things together to change the world. And

[00:42:42.79] spk_1:
And don’t email providers often have. Ah, excuse me. Have Ah, a process that you you for on boarding, You know, You know, you’ve got a new you know, you’ve got a new member to your organization do list. And so within 24 hours, you want them to get this and then 36 hours and then 72 hours and there’s your like, there’s your three.

[00:44:34.99] spk_0:
You just gotta go. You just gotta go fill it in. But, you know, making the decisions about what goes on those emails is sometimes too hard a decision. So again, it goes back to whether you have collaborative support from your leadership about what should be in those emails or the authority to just decide for your organization. So filling that out, you know, really, it doesn’t take that long, so going back to your your booster idea. So let’s say people are on your email list. They’re open an email cruising along, and then they just kind of stopped. For whatever reason, who knows? Right, but haven’t opened an email from you in six months. At that point, most of those email companies both the inbox providers and the people sending your email are going to consider that person un engaged. And that again has implications for how often that email will be in the inbox versus spam. So we want to re engage, so you can also do another set of emails just to those people who haven’t opened an email recently and what you’re trying to do. There is basically to get them to open or click on the email, so you’re sending them your best content. It’s the sort of in case you missed it kind of messaging. Sometimes people will do kind of, you know, funny little. Oh, you know, Do you still like us? Are we breaking up? You know that kind of thing? Not my favorite, but you know, it’ll work for some organizations, but you’re basically telling people, Hey, we’re still here. Do you still want to get our email or not? And if you don’t, you should stop emailing them. And that’s a really hard thing. We find that the overwhelming majority of nonprofits just cannot.

[00:44:43.83] spk_1:
They’re not. They’re not stopping there. They’re

[00:45:01.79] spk_0:
not. They’re not. And it’s really bad because they’re going to continue. I mean, that’s That’s the nut. That’s sort of the worst thing you could do is continue. Thio email people that are not opening your stuff and haven’t opened it for months or years. At this point that really tanks your

[00:45:02.45] spk_1:
your sender reputation. It all goes into your algorithm. I

[00:45:05.57] spk_0:
mean, it doesn’t know

[00:45:07.22] spk_1:
that the email providers know how your emails are being treated

[00:45:12.29] spk_0:
right. Sometimes people will call us and they’ll say, Can’t be I subscribe your email, but it’s in spam. I wanted you to know it’s in spam and you know my response to that is, Well, that’s really your behavior problem less than mine because I know I’m not sending bad content. The problem is, you’re probably not opening enough of our emails. So what I need you to Dio is go ahead and rescue it out of the spam folder, and then the next couple times you see it come through. Just go ahead and open that email and that will send the signal that you know, you don’t consider a spam.

[00:45:44.49] spk_1:
How did you get the great name? Kivi? What a lovely

[00:45:46.52] spk_0:
name. Eyes

[00:45:47.85] spk_1:
that from Yeah, it’s It’s like I think of a little bird like it reminds me of a hummingbird. What? What?

[00:45:54.17] spk_0:
What? It’s a Hebrew name, But, you know, I also joked that I was born in 1969 in Northern California. So my parents thought they were hippie, so they wanted to give me a fun name.

[00:46:04.28] spk_1:
It was a fun name, but it’s just Hey, Bru, what does it does it mean something in Hebrew.

[00:46:09.38] spk_0:
I believe it means protected one, although I might have

[00:46:13.83] spk_1:
that non protector. Maybe it’s protector.

[00:46:39.48] spk_0:
Yeah, it tze something nice. It’s also a male name in, I think, something like a one of the Scandinavian languages and it means stone. It’s a it means stone or rock, I think in a e Don’t know camera. But when a camera Which name? Yeah, it’s a male. It’s a male name. So sometimes if you if you’re like looking at Kitty’s online, it will be a bunch of tall blond guys,

[00:46:53.28] spk_1:
right? Right, eating, eating a lot of salmon or swordfish. I like the protector or protected one. Now, uh, contrary to what I usually do, I let you mentioned something. So I said, You’re the guest, So let’s go there. I usually don’t do that.

[00:46:59.78] spk_0:
Yeah, that

[00:47:00.16] spk_1:
surprised ultimately, for you as a za marketing communications professional, because usually I take

[00:47:12.08] spk_0:
over. Yeah, I was a little surprised when that happened, but resume your normal personality. Tony, please. Let’s talk about

[00:48:13.07] spk_1:
the center of the universe is me in this show. The the dissonance I see between your respondents say that email is either very important or absolutely essential is like 50/50 percent, 53%. But then the usage Oh, and then and then Facebook. They about about the same percentage. 54% say Facebook, not at all important to them. But then you have a lovely another lovely, colorful bar chart on community use of communications channels. And Facebook is being used week, either several times per week or daily by 80% of the org’s. And email is down like only 21% are doing daily or or then 53% of doing several times per week or daily. So I see a distance between the the importance the relative importance of email on Facebook and their actual usage.

[00:49:19.07] spk_0:
Well, I guess I don’t quite see that because they’re they’re just different channels, right? And so what would be considered best practice is going to vary so on Social media, You know, people update its shorter updates more frequently, um, than with email, which is somewhat longer content. But you know, most organizations probably shouldn’t be emailing every day, whereas they probably should be posting everyday on social media. So with email, what we really say is, you know, if you’re on Lee doing email monthly or even quarterly. It’s like, Why are you even bothering if you’re only emailing people quarterly? But you know, we we try to really encourage people to move in the direction of weekly for email. Now, of course, it depends what they’re doing, right? Like the organizations that air really actively involved in advocacy work. Our political topics for things were changing very quickly. There’s tons of breaking news, you know. They are going to email daily in a lot of cases, but even kind of your average non profit. That’s not doing super newsy things. You know, I would still encourage them to do a short email once a week. A short email once a week is better than a long email once a month.

[00:49:59.67] spk_1:
A short email once a week is better than a long email. Yeah, yeah, more, more frequency. People only hear from you 12 times a year. That just in 2021. That just seems completely inadequate from educations standpoint. Month. Yeah, they’re gonna forget you in between. All right. All right. So I understand. Maybe there’s not the dissonance that I that I saw Just What about Facebook, you know, Do we still have to be? You have to talk about it because there’s 30 you want me to get Julia Campbell to talk about it, E

[00:50:10.23] spk_0:
I recommend.

[00:50:11.68] spk_1:
Yes, I know. I’ve We’ve We’ve had her. We’ve talked. I’ve talked to her. Um, Alright. There are still 3.5 for whatever billion

[00:50:18.62] spk_0:
people there. You

[00:50:19.39] spk_1:
still have to be

[00:50:20.47] spk_0:
there. I mean, it’s still the, you know, the big the big monster. Right?

[00:50:26.49] spk_1:

[00:51:43.06] spk_0:
you know, what I encourage people to do is to really think about how to use Facebook, though. So when you look at what is most engaging on Facebook and where Facebook itself is investing, most of its resource is it’s into video, particularly Facebook Live or it’s into the group’s function of Facebook. You know, tony, I don’t know if you’ve how much time you spend on Facebook or, you know, if you really analyze your own personal use, but I know the overwhelming majority of time I spend on Facebook is in Facebook groups, okay? And so, you know, a group isn’t right for every organization, but if it if you’re interested in both communicating with people and having those people communicate with each other. So you’re really interesting in organizing that community and facilitating that community conversation. Then I think a group can make a lot of sense on. Then again, Like I said, video is something that ah lot of people are embracing now with the pandemic, they’re just going for it. And so Facebook live could be really helpful in that way, too. Um, you know, I don’t encourage people to spend tons and tons of time on just sort of random posts on their Facebook pages. Um, I think there’s a better ways to use that time. Okay,

[00:51:48.06] spk_1:
what would you like to wrap up with? What should we say about the non profit communications trends report that we haven’t talked about yet?

[00:52:59.95] spk_0:
Well, you know, I think you mentioned how empathetic we are, um or I enormously. Yeah. I mean, I am not, like, normally, a cheerleader type of person, but this is the one place in my life, you know? Besides, maybe my girl scouts that I do feel like I am a cheerleader is is really trying to encourage calms, folks, Thio, uh, you know, step into the role to lead in the role to really move their organizations forward. And, you know, I think we’re seeing some of that take place. Every time we do a trends report, we can see MAWR, especially in the open ended questions where people can really talk in their own words, about the changes that are going on on. We’re continuing to see that, and I think the pandemic was a great test of that. The organizations that are doing the calm, the collaborative, agile, logical, methodical are able toe whether even this horrible pandemic on. So I think I find that encouraging and hopeful. If they could get through this, they could do anything. Just imagine the possibilities.

[00:53:21.78] spk_1:
The empathetic Give You Lulu Miller non profit marketing guide at non profit marketing guy dot com and at I’ll Say It one more time. N P M K T G D. On Kivi is at key BLM at TVL M. Well, I’ll be talking to you before you and the girls go toe, but I’ll say I hope you have a wonderful trip thio to Belize, but I’ll be talking to you before then. Thank you very much, Kevin.

[00:53:27.83] spk_0:
Thanks for sharing

[00:54:20.75] spk_1:
my pleasure next week. I just can’t say at this point, But have I ever let you down? If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor Simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant demo and a free Month Ah, creative producer is kiddies. Friend Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, you’re with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for January 25, 2021: Peer-To-Peer For 2021

My Guest:

Brandon Smith: Peer-To-Peer For 2021

David Hessekiel returns with a look at this year’s P2P prospects. But not before a survey of the P2P carnage that was 2020. There are distinct opportunities for 2021 and David shares the collective advice of thought leaders and practitioners. He’s the founder of Peer-to-Peer Professional Forum.



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[00:01:53.74] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of gastroesophageal reflux disease if you made me choke on the idea that you missed this week’s show. Peer to Peer for 2021. David Hess Akil returns with a look at this year’s P two p prospects, but not before a survey of the PDP carnage that was 2020. There are distinct opportunities for 2021 David shares the collective advice of thought leaders and practitioners. He’s the founder of Peer to Peer, Professional Forum and tony Steak, too. We’ve calmed down, were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant demo and a free month. Here is peer to peer for 2021. It’s my pleasure to welcome back after several years. David Hesse Kiel. He is founder and president of Cause Marketing Forum Inc. Helping nonprofits enlist millions of people to raise billions of dollars through the peer to peer professional forum and partner with businesses to do well by doing good through engage for Good. Both organizations hold national conferences to provide access to practical information and inspiration To help nonprofits forge valuable connections. You’ll find them at peer to peer forum dot com and at Engage for good calm. David is at Dave cause welcome back to non profit radio, David.

[00:02:14.75] spk_0:
It’s great to be back, tony.

[00:02:16.77] spk_1:
It’s a genuine pleasure. Good to have you after after probably too many years. I’m sorry for that. But here we are now. So no, no more lamentations

[00:02:24.90] spk_0:
about no time like the present

[00:02:37.34] spk_1:
to talk about peer to peer. Um, first, just acquaint us with you’ve got You’ve got three organizations there. You got the Cause Marketing Forum. You got the peer to peer professional forum and you’ve got engaged for good way. Know what they’re doing generally, but drill down a little bit. Eso listeners understand what

[00:02:43.62] spk_0:
your marketing forum is really just the the holding company for all for these two endeavors a

[00:02:54.60] spk_1:
shell company. That’s where your that’s where you really tax money enough

[00:02:59.56] spk_0:
money to be dealing with the Cayman Islands and all of that. Alright, alright. It isn’t that interesting

[00:03:01.54] spk_1:
about that, Okay?

[00:04:09.54] spk_0:
Actually, originally, I started the company with the conference that was called Cause Marketing Forum, All about how businesses and nonprofits could work together. Over over the years, that area of interest morphed. And so the words cause marketing became a little dated. And so we changed to engage for good, because businesses are now looking more holistically at the whole field of how they can have values and do purpose driven work. Creating a better world while still being faithful to their bottom lines. And so that now involves not only consumer facing programs but programs designed to attract and retain and motivate employees activism on the national and international scale. And a lot more, um, peer to peer professional form. I’m a big name changer. I started that one back in 2000 and seven as the Run Walk Ride Fundraising Council because I think that many of your your listeners will be familiar with the term peer to peer fundraising. But way back in 2000 and six, when I was really pondering this, that didn’t exist. People never use that free we

[00:04:24.73] spk_1:
didn’t say Peter P a peer to peer. So run, walk, run, walk rides.

[00:05:11.44] spk_0:
So I tried to come up with the title that would telegraph what we were talking about. Um, and it took a number of years, but we picked up steam when peered appear became a a common phrase we re branded, and I learned something very interesting along the way. That is a lesson for us all. I learned we had a huge spike in the number of people who came to our conferences, listen to our stuff after we made that change. And I mean, it’s a great It was a great rebranding, but it wasn’t that great. And I was learning that certain people were being so literal that they were saying, Well, if I don’t have a run or walk or a ride, I’m not invited to the party.

[00:05:17.16] spk_1:
E can’t do a dance.

[00:06:18.34] spk_0:
Exactly where is really what we’re talking about? Is this amazing engine off fundraising and community development in which a non profit has its supporters get involved in some activity and then reach out to their networks to get support, as opposed to the traditional form in which most fundraising takes place where the non profit directly makes an ask in many different ways individual giving, legacy, giving all sorts of different campaigns here. They’re using that power of that network to get money from people who who they probably would never have talked to because they weren’t particularly interested. But those relationships create a lot of opportunity. And so a peer to peer professional forum We actually held our last conference the last week of February.

[00:06:22.04] spk_1:
Got it right in. We

[00:06:23.37] spk_0:
were so lucky. In fact, although the pandemic was mentioned in a couple of panels, we had no idea. Of course, tsunami that was approaching us.

[00:06:37.36] spk_1:
You were two weeks lucky or two or three weeks luckier than in 10, and had Thio canceled, canceled their conference and scrambling. Do what? Do what they could thio put online.

[00:07:00.84] spk_0:
I’d like to say that I was smart. I was just in that case, that was very, very 40. Yeah, way had 650 plus people that with largest conference we’ve ever had, and I speak with a lot of these people frequently, And if I had a dollar for every time somebody said to me, Oh, my gosh. The last business trip I took was to be with you in Austin. Yeah, I could retire. Yeah, well,

[00:07:14.76] spk_1:
you have to have 650 bucks. You live meagerly in Rye, New York. If you could retire on $650 a dollar from each one, I’ll give you $10 for each one. You still wouldn’t be able to retire. Six. Its’s a metaphor. It’s an aphorism. Yes, I understand. But you know, I take aphorisms literally. Unless I’m the one using them. And then Then what? You’re being silly. Where you taking me literally for? There’s no winning. There’s no way, because I do. Whatever the hell, it’s nice to post, and

[00:07:42.56] spk_0:
it’s nice to be king. So you’re the host. What do you

[00:07:55.74] spk_1:
say? I’m the host. I’m the king. Yeah, that’s good. I should use King King non profit radio. All right, so, so much a peer to peer is online that there was virtually no impact on the on peer to peer fundraising throughout. 2020 right? It was already online. I’m

[00:10:08.04] spk_0:
sorry you’ve low star game because that’s absolutely not true. Oh, my gosh. It was so a zay said once in a part of time, we were called the Run Walk Ride Fundraising Council, and in one sense, you are right, which is that off all forms of fundraising. The group, the area that perhaps has the deepest penetration of fundraising being conducted online, maybe peer to peer because people who are involved in these types of programs will reach out and use email and social media to collect all of those often smaller contributions. So there is a great penetration, but most of the activity has an analog sort of physical component in the real world, although the balance is changing. Walks, for example, mass gatherings of people, thousands of them every year. We started off in February going okay, It’s getting to be spring walk season. Let’s get going. We’re good luck this season and within a month, basically, this spring, the spring season was completely canceled and everybody was scrambling to create some sort of virtual experience so that they would be able to continue to do that fundraising and then within another couple of months, because we all thought we all hope that we all thought in the early days Well, all right, this is a pandemic. But how long could it last? So we were optimistic that fall programs would happen because these types of programs are very weighted towards the spring and the fall. In a lot of the country, it’s too hot or people are away on vacation, so they don’t do as much of this summer anyway, This the fall went away, and so there was a mad scramble to come up with alternatives to what they had traditionally done

[00:10:15.99] spk_1:
right. And you’ve got some recognition for folks that did that particularly. Well, just just give us some perspective about what? What, what these these cancelations in spring and fall meant to the community nation.

[00:12:14.64] spk_0:
So you know it’s been interesting were one of our best known pieces of research is the called the Top 30 Report. We do a study in which we look at it. The 30 largest programs we do, one actually in the US and we do another one in Canada, and over the first few years that I was involved with this field, we were doing very nicely. The collapse financial collapse happened in 2000 and 8, 2009, and we’ve actually had negative numbers for nearly every year since then. But when you group them all together, it’s usually a couple of percent. Maybe. And I was hoping that this coming year would be the year that we would actually finally have black ink and produce a report that said it was going to that it was positive on General. Well, nothing could be further than the truth, because nonprofits, uh, through no fault of their own, like all of us, in different aspects of our lives, you know, you promised People X they were used to doing X, and now all of a sudden X for 95% of the situations was impossible to do, and so they would create virtual. And anyway, we found out that I’m using a general term that is about a 50% drop off in the amount of money that they raised from these programs. It really like any average. It’s an average. So you had some that were in the 70 80% of recapturing what they had expected to raise, or at least how much they raised the previous year. You have some in the forties, you have some that were canceled and you have a very few very, very, very few situations where they’re actually were physical programs. I actually I mean, there are more than non, but I know of one in particular. Uh, and it was it. It’s been a devastating year.

[00:12:41.64] spk_1:
So you’ve got these three organizations that, um I don’t wanna really talk about them specifically, but name them that that you identified as having done particularly well in adapting. And then, you know, what can we learn from these in aggregate?

[00:13:51.74] spk_0:
Eso It’s It’s again like everybody else. We’ve also had to make major changes the way that we share information. We upped tremendously the frequency off distance learning that we were providing through our organization because everybody was hungry for information and was locked in and they couldn’t go out. Um, and we have had a tradition over in recent years, off every year late, naming one organization as the peer to peer fundraising organization of the year and sort of looking at the totality of what they do. Sometimes it’s for one program. Sometimes it’s for ah group of programs, and as we looked at last year, we decided that it would be more instructive to look at a few examples of programs. He was a program within a program or otherwise that did well and use them as learn herbal moment. So we picked out three, and each of them illustrates a different point.

[00:14:35.24] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times Do you wanna be in papers like that? How about CBS Market Watch? The Chronicle of Philanthropy? Turn two has the relationships with outlets like these, so that when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turn to turn two calls you turn hyphen two dot ceo now back to peer to peer for 2021

[00:16:46.64] spk_0:
In the case of there’s the L S Association off its Greater Chicago chapter, and even though they had a spring event as part of the large Ailes walk Siri’s, each chapter was sort of left to fend somewhat for themselves, and they made a fast move, which was one of the things that helped some groups and being having having difficulty making a decision and telling people what was coming up. The pike was a big problem for a lot of groups. Um, they said, Okay, there is not going to be a large Chicago walk. What? We know that a whole bunch of you have signed up. About 150 groups have signed up as teams in this case, largely family teams, people who have somebody afflicted with that terrible disease of ales. We want you to create neighborhood walks, and we are sending every one of you a walk in a box kit. Oh, it’s amazing that, you know, it’s ah, big box full of of instructions and door hangers to put around their neighborhood, explaining that they were gonna be walking and asking people to give and all sorts of fun, uplifting type of stuff shirts, etcetera. And they were able to got about 125 groups to actually walk. They had even some more grandiose plans which were defeated by the by the pandemic and by some of the unrest that was happening at the exact time that they were supposed to have their their program. They were going to send, uh, emissaries out to the neighborhood, walks and provide them with with cupcakes and have super It’s a superhero themed walk Superheroes gonna visit there weren’t allowed to send people out. But by giving people something, really, by generating excitement, you look with all the stuff we’ve got. They were able to I think they raised about 75% of what their previous total had been. So a less was so taken with their approach and some of the many smart things that they did that they encouraged and taught many of their other chapters to adopt some of their techniques and it stood them in good stead. And they’re and they’re planning to continue that for next

[00:17:12.06] spk_1:
year. So innovation Is that what you were captured you about the

[00:17:39.54] spk_0:
yes, there was association that all all of these in some way, shape or form of innovation. In this case, the easiest shorthand to say is if you can’t bring the people you know Mohammed to the mountain, bring the mountain to Mohammed where we are, they created some of the excitement. People do walks, not because walks air so exciting. I mean, it’s not like you’re going to the, you know, if you if you’ve decided, you’re going to do it, you’re a runner and your you’ve set yourself a personal goal and you’re doing a marathon. There’s a whole big exciting thing, but walks are neat, but people want to be able to congregate. Of course, be a part of a team. Well, that wasn’t possible is here. So they helped create some of that spirit by sending it out. So that was their innovation.

[00:18:04.93] spk_1:
Bunch of a bunch of smaller communities. Instead of one big community of tens of thousands of people coming together, there were 100 25 communities that came together throughout throughout Greater Chicago.

[00:19:21.04] spk_0:
You’re absolutely right. Will be Dana Farber, and Dana Farber does a number of amazing programs. One of their programs is the Jimmy Fund. Dana Farber has this amazing New England charity called The Jimmy Fund. There is called the Jimmy Fund Walk. David Dana Farber is a cancer research center, and what is best known about that walk it’s they’re based in Boston is that follows the route of the Boston Marathon. So for years, that was sort of what they lead with the excitement that you were actually going to be able to do the route off the marathon and all of a sudden, impossible can do that. And I think that they’re example. They were also able to have a strong performance. But it taught them a lesson about the importance of changing your messaging to never lose sight of the mission and the stories of the people and the impact that the people who are walking have. And by shifting that model of messaging to their supporters, it stood them in very good stead. And then the third group that we

[00:19:28.00] spk_1:
wait before you move on. So what did they do in place of the walk? Uh,

[00:20:11.04] spk_0:
of it A. And an encouragement to go out and walk on your own. Okay. They also created online ways to get involved and to be a part of, ah, a group program. But this was just a really good lesson in how strategically changing your marketing message makes a huge difference. And sometimes we way. It’s easy to get caught up in sort of the sizzle. And this was going back to the steak, which is the reason why you’re doing this. Yes, it’s very cool to be on the marathon route when you’re doing this to help save kids and others. We’ve got cancer

[00:20:17.08] spk_1:
back to the why? Why?

[00:22:26.34] spk_0:
Why? You sound like Simon cynic. And then the third group that we’re going Thio. Yeah, well, I’m a big admirer to the third one is, uh, the Terry Fox Foundation, which I don’t I imagine that many of your most of your listeners Air American in Canada. The Terry Fox Foundation is very well known. Terry Fox was a young man. I think this was back in the eighties, perhaps where who had cancer and he lost one of his legs. It was amputated and he decided to fight cancer to raise money by running across Canada. Very, very dramatic. Um, and he passed away, and they created this Terry Fox Foundation, which holds numerous walks and runs all across Canada. Once again, they went from a group that does almost 1000 events. Ah, year to one that couldn’t hold any in person. And there’s is an example. We’re really honoring them for having the guts to complete what they had it planned. Terry Fox. An amazing organization. One of the largest peer to peer fundraisers in Canada, but also a very traditional organization. And frankly, and they have said to us not as digitized and in their approach to doing business as most other leading nonprofits were. And they had made a decision in the previous year to make a major pushing how they acted and in reaching out to their supporters via digital means and raising money digitally of doing all of that in a very new and much more modern way. And many organizations with all of the change that was coming down the pike as the pandemic swept through the industry, would have said, Oh my gosh, this is not the year to do a major all overhaul of all of our systems. And instead the Terry Fox folks said, You know what? Let’s stick to the course. Let’s do this They did. It was very successful and all the more helpful to have that digital communication and fundraising in a time when you can’t get together and they recruit about forgetting the exact number. But this sort of like seven of the $8 million that they would have raised, they raised a large percentage of the money that they would have raised

[00:23:04.84] spk_1:
a profile encourage for doing something audacious, right at a time when a lot of organizations might not have, but they saw the need. Yeah, great. And they seized it. Absolutely. So let’s zoom. Let’s look forward then. So, though Well, those three organizations gonna be honored right at the march. You gotta You gotta March conference coming up. The people could find find out about the conference where

[00:23:28.24] spk_0:
they will go to peer to peer forum dot com. And they will find out about this event that we’re holding Thea er Noon, Eastern time, March 1st, 2nd and 3rd with a great love or information on overview off the field as well as very this very specifics off. If you do walks or if you are a hospital or if you do cycling events, there are special breakout sessions for all of those and more.

[00:26:07.97] spk_1:
It’s time for tony steak, too. We’ve calmed down Well, maybe I should say I’ve calmed down to events, seemed to have turned down the national temperature or at least turn down my temperature. Maybe I’m extrapolating from myself for everybody. Maybe that’s unfair. Although I am the center of the universe, we know that non profit radio is here with me non profit radio and I are the center of the universe. So maybe I’m not being unfair, but so maybe it’s more what I’m feeling. These two, these two things these two events seem to have have calmed me, and maybe they have calmed the nation. Donald Trump silenced on Twitter and the inauguration. I’m getting fewer news alerts. I’m not looking at my phone as much. I don’t feel sort of, like, agitated on and compelled to investigate headlines like I did before those two events. Um, so again, like I’ve said three times already, uh, maybe it’s just me. So maybe this is a little therapy session. No, I don’t I don’t mean non profit radio would be therapy. If it is, I’m in a lot of trouble. I’m not getting my money’s worth. I I feel I feel a difference. I feel a difference in the in in Communist and increased Communists and decreased agitation. And maybe that’s the national temperature as well. I’m not sure, but I’m sharing with you what I’m feeling since those two things. And that is Tony’s Take two. Now let us return to peer to peer for 2021 with David Hezekiel. Let’s look forward then David has skill. What do you think 2021 is looking like you had some piece in Forbes that makes some predictions from powerhouse people in peer to peer. Lots of lots of, uh, liberation there. Powerhouses in peer to peer productivity and and and And what? Pastrami, pastrami and prodigious nous. So what do your engagement is one thing e talking about? I

[00:26:12.65] spk_0:
wish, tony that your listeners could see a visual right now because you can see that I’ve got a large crystal wall that I am looking into peering into because this is where I get most of my forecasts and predictions. But believe me,

[00:26:36.60] spk_1:
yeah, well, know that Forbes piece was based on lots of other people like non profit radio. I’m not I’m not the expert here. I’m just a bulletin board that you post things on my forehead. And then I put them out for our listeners Thio to pick up on.

[00:26:48.80] spk_0:
Yes, I didn’t put any of my predictions, but I will tell you that it was fascinating to dio to do this, so I don’t know what when this airs. Uh, but

[00:27:00.08] spk_1:
there the week of January 25th

[00:27:48.14] spk_0:
next week. Monday uh, I literally just stepped away from I work in the home office. I guess we all are sort of working in home offices now. And I just watched the inauguration. Yes, very touching. Ah, nde There was no, uh no messing around. No gilding the lily. There’s tough times ahead. And the, you know, vaccination program seems to be absolutely key to really being able to unleash the economic power off all sorts of activity. And this area is is no different because

[00:28:00.44] spk_1:
all the more actually Z originated has run, walk, ride. So you made very clear there is still an important in real life component to peer to peer fundraising.

[00:30:15.20] spk_0:
So when we get to the some of those prognostications in the past But we did a survey some months ago asking people what were they thinking was going to be the shape of their programs next year. The overwhelming majority were saying, Well, we’re hoping that we will have what what what have become the term has has become hybrid programs. They would like to have physical programs, but especially for the spring. I mean, you know, we’re coming up against the big traditionally many programs started in March in the warmer climes were very big in April and May, and the vaccination roll out is just not happening that fast. Eso uh there is the feeling that there may be the opportunity to not re constitute as okay, we’re gonna have 5000 people gathered together to do a major walk. But we may be able to say, Okay, well, certain of you, this will continue to be a virtual experience. But we also have an element of this where we’re perhaps organized much smaller experience, socially distant experience. Maybe you need to reach a certain level of fundraising and then you can come to a gathering that those combinations are called hybrids. And I think there’s going to be, ah, huge amount of that also because one of the thio, almost a person when I talked to speak people in this field to say the most maddening aspect of what’s going on is it’s so hard to plan because we just don’t know when the all clear will be sounded and we can go back to living is normal. So if you plan for ah hybrid with the realization that if things get better it could be more physical. And if things go to heck, it could be mawr or completely Virtual is the posture that most are taking. There’s some hope. One of the people that we interviewed was Jennifer Lee leads the peer to peer effort at the National and s Society, one of the major peer to peer fundraising America. And she is guardedly guardedly optimistic that in the fall there will be much more of a physical presence in these programs. Um, so that is one

[00:30:36.42] spk_1:
your hybrid and and hybrid, and I just built into that is, be flexible.

[00:32:39.94] spk_0:
Yes, The second thing that comes loud and clear is that virtual if your idea of virtual is just saying, well, we really can’t do anything, so just give that ain’t gonna cut it e mean there were certain that’s really just like asking for donation, which, of course, all of these groups do in spades. But if it’s a peer to peer program, it’s a very difficult thing to get a lot of people enthusiastic if there’s no there there. So a lot of investment needs to be made in making virtual, uh, in some way inspiring enabling groups to come together to have that feeling of community giving them props that bring the thing toe life such as we talked about with the L s associations. Example. Um, yeah. On then, we have a wonderful contributor who will be speaking at this This year’s conference. Nicole Dolan works for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. And she said one of the lessons she learned along the way and that they are working on very hard is you need to give people, uh, concrete things that they need to do. Give them assignments, sign up for this email, Come to this meeting, uh, post on social media. You know, be a part of what’s going on because your best supporters will react to that. And it’s much more fulfilling for them to actually get involved. Then if you just sort of give them a blanket. Okay, well, you know, go off and figure it out. That will not work. So are you.

[00:33:57.14] spk_1:
Are you, uh I’m having a deja vu moment right now. I’ve dreamed about you. Are you related? Do you have any? Yeah. Connection to Minnesota? No. Why? Well, I don’t know. Because of what I’m asking because of my deja vu experience. There was something related to Minnesota in in the dream that I had when you and I were talking. Uh, all right. I was hoping you could validate my dream, but all right, there was some There was some connection with Minnesota. And you in our conversation, maybe was just asking. I’ve been on the secretary. Alright. But I am. I am. It’s over now. It’s over now, so I don’t know where we’re headed. I can’t say, um the so I mean, the other advantage Thio keeping that virtual engagement is that you can you can bring in those folks that joined you in 2020 who could not have joined you in a real life event. So you don’t wanna You don’t want to just kind of, I guess, you know, move them to a strict campaign, you know, digital giving platform or or or channel, I should say, when their their initial engagement was around an event. So if you if you keep the hybrid and you stay flexible and you you work on engagement like you’re describing, um you can keep those people involved in a in an event fashion even though there may be hundreds of miles away from you.

[00:37:38.77] spk_0:
Yes, well, I think that the higher level, more sophisticated incarnation of this type of activity has always said that you work at segmenting. You don’t treat everybody as equal where all God’s Children and when you treat them all well. But your top 20% for example, of fundraisers. That’s where you know there’s sort of an 80 20 rule. They will raise the overwhelming majority of your funds, and you should be giving them a lot of attention. There’s a lot of people in the walk world, especially who come who show up where your T shirt to eat a banana, but actually don’t raise any money. And they feel like, Well, it’s a community activity and we wanna be involved were not fundraisers, Um similarly Paul Purty of the American Cancer Society, who is also speaking at our conference. He makes the point that he’s done a huge amount of experimentation and trying different virtual approaches, and one of their lessons is really think about this as an on boarding ramp for finding people who are passionate about your cause, and then you do the segmentation necessary to figure out how to keep them involved, perhaps in a virtual way, or whether they are good candidates for trying your physical event. When you can hold that well. Or maybe there will be a supportive of your charity, you know, completely different way. Maybe they could become great volunteers or maybe substantial individual givers. So this whole on boarding and shepherding, stewarding off, peer to peer and seeing it as an on ramp to building your funnel of of supporters is very important. And virtual will never go back to being sort of the very weak excuse of saying, Oh yes, we have a virtual program. But there was really no there there. It was just a way of saying, Well, if you live far away and you wanna be supportive of other people, you could say you’re a virtual walker. Now there are people, and interesting. We had a weapon or the other day featuring people from Good United who also worked with the American Cancer Society and had a wonderful speaker, Dan Thorpe, from there and what they They are using a whole mixture off using Facebook social media advertising to find people who would be interested in a geo particular geographic area at getting involved in a a squat challenge or a individualized walk or run challenge, et cetera, and using the Facebook milieu to get them involved in to get them fundraising. They had tremendous success with that. What they feel that most of those people will have to be will probably be kept involved by reaching out to them again through that social media connection they made. Two. It’s almost It’s a little strong to say this, but it’s almost like a bait and switch. If you try to say Okay, well, you’re a social media. Uh uh, you like to communicate this way. Now we want to take you off of social media and communicate with you via email and have you go to a physical event with a lot of other people, where you have not demonstrated that you necessarily want to do that

[00:37:51.42] spk_1:
radio meet people where they are. It not where you would like them to be and come meet you. Um, squat challenge makes my thighs tremble because I’ve been doing jump squats. It’s only my thighs. Don’t don’t get to accept, you know, just thighs trembling that stops there. Um uh, doing jump squats as part of my homework out.

[00:38:20.61] spk_0:
I’m impressed because I try to do Burpees Oh, my God.

[00:38:47.12] spk_1:
Things. Oh, and then do split, jump squats Those things are rough toward the end toward the end of a set. Oh, are a bunch of reps. I’m more like It’s more like standing on your toes instead of jumping like stand on your toe and squat squat So squat challenges I got a little this. I got a visceral queen. Visceral reaction when mentioned squat challenges

[00:38:48.28] spk_0:
trying not to use any untoward vocabulary again. I don’t want to scare you, tony.

[00:40:30.01] spk_1:
Well, you wouldn’t know my hyper sensitivities. Uh, if that was gonna be the case, we have to wrap up right now. It is a lot. I got more tony go from or much of issues. Time for our last break. Quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our executive team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising toward their goals, you could feel this person’s excitement. You can feel her excitement at witnessing this dot drives has allowed us to take those key relationships and bring them to a deeper level. End quote. That’s Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is dot drives Prospect to donor Simplified. Get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. You go to the listener landing page at we’ve got but loads more time for peer to peer for 2021 you got you got also your your thought Leaders in peer to peer had ideas and about not surprising. I mean, we hear this in a lot of a lot of realms. I certainly, uh um in foundation and even corporate fundraising as well. But collaborations be collaborative. Reach out, reach out across your community. Maybe it’s across the country. Be collaborative.

[00:40:43.41] spk_0:
Well, it s so funny that you mentioned that because I literally had a conversation yesterday with with one of the speakers for Thea upcoming conference. And what she was saying is that you know as much as there is, it’s

[00:40:46.61] spk_1:
not funny. David, this is all planned. There’s nothing funny about it. You got coming in. Think I didn’t. You know, You think I didn’t talk to the people you’ve spoken to in the past two weeks to find out about you? This is this. This doesn’t just come together. I’m a little I’m a little offended. I’m a little I’m disappointed. More than offended. Go ahead.

[00:42:18.70] spk_0:
Looking for the silver linings? One of the things that she had been particularly, uh, happy about Waas. That there was a lot of sharing. I mean, although many of us feel zoomed out of our minds, the fact that groups off people who knew each other but worked at different organizations were getting together We’re asking one another’s questions. Um, they were going to some some programming that we created in which there was a lot of sharing has really helped folks get through this very, very difficult, uh, period. So I think that there is collaboration, and for me, it’s such a delight to see, because when I started this group, there was such trepidation that if you went to a conference and you talked about how you held your event sarees, everybody would be taking notes about some sort of secret sauce that you might have and they do that. And then all of a sudden, all of these people who have been raising money for just throwing cancer were suddenly begun to become heart association people because because they did, they did X, y or Z, and

[00:42:21.14] spk_1:
his heart still still cancers ideas. And it’s all zero sum. And if you must be losing

[00:42:38.40] spk_0:
its so much, not zero sum if you’re doing it right, because people do have an affinity, unfortunately, often for your particular cause. And so, uh, this this spirit of collaboration has just been growing and growing and

[00:42:42.67] spk_1:
growing. Can you collaborate with if you’re If you’re in the in this peer to peer world who like who, Who could you be reaching out to?

[00:43:57.40] spk_0:
Well, I think that one thing to do, I think in any field that you’re in is to be looking at other programs, seeing if there’s aspects of what they do that you admire, um, and and being you know, it’s it’s it’s taking that important first step of reaching out to others to find out who they are. One of the things that’s been a wonderful part of what we’ve been able to build is a community. You know, sometimes even figuring out who that person is isn’t easy. When were physically together. Uh, we literally leave a lot of time for networking so people can talk to one another and can share, since we’re so even within our organizations often siloed. But we’re very siloed from other other folks. It’s why, when we produced this upcoming event, we’ve created a lot of opportunities for using breakout functionality to have small group discussions to have actually one on one discussions, because people are hungry for opportunities to talk one on another, and we don’t all need to be inventing the wheel in parallel. There’s a lot of things that we can help each other out with, Uh, that won’t take away from us, but will hopefully make you know. And these people are working towards goals of trying to fight disease, fight hunger. Of course, it is wonderful to see some of this Kumbaya spirit brought to life.

[00:45:15.59] spk_1:
Am I naive if I suggest that when we get back to in real life runs walk, run, run, walk, rides, whatever, whatever form it takes that a bunch of non profits in a community, we’re in a city could get together and host something together so that you know, if if my organization could probably only get 100 or 150 runners and walkers, whatever. But there’s another organization that could get 500 somebody else who could bring 75. And together we could get 2500 or 3000 or 5000 people Thio. And then we could have the synergy of working together with the local police to stop close the streets and they get the park permits, et cetera, and rent the banners that we need and the archways and the sound system. Is that Is that doable?

[00:48:22.57] spk_0:
Yeah, Well, actually, you you you raise a really interesting point and we’re seeing some of that activity already start in different ways. So, for example, in Maryland, there is the Almond Foundation, which is a cancer foundation actually started by the family of Doug Ulman, who is the used to be the head of Live Strong is now head of paella Tonia, which is a tremendous cycling fundraiser that happens in Columbus, Ohio, back in Maryland, the when the pandemic struck the Almond Foundation, which has had a long history of raising money in a number of interesting ways through peer to peer fundraising, decided to create an event, sort of the all of the institutional work that is necessary to create the online presence and the digital fundraising systems, etcetera. And then, uh, opened this to numerous Maryland based charities, and they could have their people plug into this program. And, uh, I don’t don’t totally quote me, but I’m remembering, right there was virtually no cost to the charities to participate, other than to defray the costs that Almond was taking on to create this platform for everybody. They gave a certain percentage back toe, and Ullman wasn’t competing with them to get supporters. So that’s one example. Another example and donor drive was very involved in setting that all up donor drive being a platform company that non profit use to raise funds. Another example. Event 3 60 is a, uh, a production company, primarily very involved with peer to peer fundraising, and they have created something they call the five by five K for good. They piloted this this fall in Denver, and what they did was there a lot of people who are avid runners who want to get out avid supporters of charity. And they created event where you could run over the 24 hour period. Five different five K’s So in Toto, if you did it, yeah, you could run a basically a marathon and they had a number of different charities. It was open to any charity, and again there was. It was sort of free to enter, and then there was a certain percentage that helped defray the cost. So that went on in in Denver this fall. Um, so there There are a number of those, uh, those efforts already underway, and it’s going to be interesting to see, you know, it’s collaboration is great. It usually takes some entity to take a bold first step and sort of create something that others can get involved

[00:48:33.05] spk_1:
with. That’s it. That’s the non profit. You just profiled the non profit radio listeners there, the bold ones you gotta be somebody’s gotta put a stake in the ground and say, Let’s Tze rally around this.

[00:48:44.45] spk_0:
Yeah, and it’s a wonderful way of sharing costs and sharing opportunities that any one might not be able to do by itself,

[00:48:53.81] spk_1:
right? Are you familiar with generosity? Siri’s? Yes. That

[00:48:56.95] spk_0:
was the other one. They actually I

[00:49:09.27] spk_1:
I used Thio. I used Thio. What’s it called? I didn’t I wasn’t their host. I was there. Uh, there M c. I was used to emcee the event. I probably am said I have a dozen in the New York Manhattan.

[00:49:13.60] spk_0:
Other people? Yes, I know them. And I I have not been in touch with them recently. I have a feeling that the pandemic sort of,

[00:49:29.95] spk_1:
uh I wonder because they were strictly e. I mean, they had a fundraising platform, but they were strictly real life events in exactly, also in Philadelphia. And they were trying to go beyond the Northeast. They’re just being just New York and Philadelphia. And

[00:49:34.97] spk_0:
they were attracting numerous numerous charities, uh, to be ableto

[00:49:39.81] spk_1:
Yeah, we have a dozen or so. Yeah, I introduced Steve Buscemi at one because he was really He’s from Brooklyn. So he was a visitor at one. We had somebody. The Brooklyn City Council? Uh, no. The Brooklyn, Brooklyn President, Borough President, President, President, book. That was a different event. Yeah, I did a couple of Manhattan a couple of Brooklyn, so I hope they’re still bound listeners. You could check out generosity Siri’s, because they were. They were looking to go nationwide on there. Pretty ambitious guys. David David, David Lind,

[00:50:11.47] spk_0:
L I N N.

[00:50:13.11] spk_1:
Lynn, David Lynn, right, David and Saul, David and Saul. So I was more in the background. David Lane, right? I hope they’re still doing well. But you could check out generosity. Siri’s Certainly if you’re in the New York or Philly area, because the I know they’ve done events there and I imagine they’re they’re smart and they’ll be coming back in 2021 2022. So

[00:50:31.53] spk_0:
I’m going to reach out to them

[00:50:47.36] spk_1:
generosity. Yeah, I will, too. All right, right. So there’s cause for optimism. Even though we don’t, you know, we got to stay flexible. We don’t know when that, uh, you know, when we’ll be ableto amass thousands of people together. But there are lots of opportunities to go beyond that. As as you describe

[00:51:54.86] spk_0:
20 was a very painful learning year on, you know, again looking for silver linings. Uh, lots of groups learned about things that they could do in less staff, because unfortunately, many groups had to lay off staff, um, quicker than they’ve ever been used to and stretching and using technology in ways that they talked about for a long time. But now that it was a necessity, Ah, lot of them have made some of those investments in technology that will stand them in good stead in the year to come. So I don’t think that this is gonna be a banner year, but I think that the learnings from 2020 will stand us in in better stead to do better in 2021 then hopefully come roaring back in 2022 Because I’ve been trying to figure out tony, you you gotta help me with this. There’s got to be smarter, much smarter guys than I who are figuring out right now and gals, okay, The economy is gonna come back. We’re gonna be able to travel again, et cetera. What are the depressed stocks? And I should be buying right now to make a killing the floodgates open.

[00:52:09.05] spk_1:
You’re asking the wrong guy. First of all, I don’t like guess to put me on the spot. That’s the first thing I’ll get past that. I’m willing to overlook it this time,

[00:52:16.72] spk_0:
but I’ll never do

[00:52:17.71] spk_1:
it. That’s why that’s why it’s been so many years since you’ve been back. I believe I remember distinctly. You did that six years ago. I remember the day I’m pretty sure was November 4th.

[00:52:26.26] spk_0:
It was probably your dream, but Okay,

[00:52:42.95] spk_1:
that was Minnesota. Now, that was strictly that was strictly a Minnesota thing. Yeah, but the other reason you’re aside from that, you know, if you look at my portfolio, you’d see you know, my my mantra is always buy high, sell low. So you don’t want stock advice from May?

[00:52:44.68] spk_0:
Well, I guess the two of us will be working stiffs for quite over because I’ve got a similar profile. But I do think

[00:52:54.03] spk_1:
I need some illicit income. That’s what I need. I need some of that came and came in high double money because I got I got too much of the income and not enough of the capital game.

[00:53:34.55] spk_0:
I think that when you know, as I said before, sort of like the all clearest sounded. There is going to be such a penned up demand to get together with other, has celebrate and to do the good work that people are so dedicated to that they have such an emotional connection with, uh that, you know, hopefully, maybe at the end of 2021 but certainly 2022 should be should should really benefit from that. And so this year, we’re going to be revealing at at our conferences we do every year. What the

[00:53:37.77] spk_1:
enough with Schilling of the conference. Now I’ll let you get away with it for, like, three times I said it. What was that? March?

[00:54:13.14] spk_0:
But we’re going thio and let Ugo available on our site. You don’t have to pay Teoh get it? What is the results of the 2020 study that we dio in terms of the top 30 programs? And that will be a very somber moment because it’s gonna be terrible. The numbers are awful, however, as any good sales person who’s ever had a sales commission plan knows. What you want to do is you want to join up when they’ve had a terrible year, because the next year that you’re working off of a much smaller base, and so any gains that you have are accelerated. So I’m hoping you

[00:54:19.41] spk_1:
go So apply that lesson to your stock market question. And now you’ve got your answer. There you go. I don’t know what to me. I don’t know what the answer is, but, you know, you get back to you, you have to take the next step on your own,

[00:54:30.48] spk_0:
will get together with David Lynn will find him, and he’ll tell us what you think

[00:54:34.80] spk_1:
of it On the microcosmic level. I mean, aren’t you dying? Thio have a dinner with friends

[00:54:39.01] spk_0:
again. Just answered a survey was sort of a fun survey talking about great, you know, kind of kooky things. And but what were the questions was what are you most looking forward to when this is over? And I said going out to dinner with friends?

[00:54:54.29] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. Hour and a half. No masks. Close table for four to

[00:55:00.60] spk_0:
food. Could be awful.

[00:55:04.94] spk_1:
Yeah, Yeah, we have to go to one of the remaining few remaining restaurants that that survived this thing. All right, Thank you very much. David. David has Shaquille. He’s got a bunch of shell companies one step ahead of the law trying. Tony, did I mention that

[00:55:18.62] spk_0:
the peer to peer forum is uh, march 1st through third.

[00:55:53.34] spk_1:
I’m not gonna say it now, So if you want, that’s a peer to peer forum dot com. If you want to do it on the business side, you’re more interested in partnering with businesses. Um, there’s engaged for good. They also have a conference engaged for good dot com and David is at Dave, not David. He goes by David. But I guess David David, David Cause must have been taken by some near do well considers himself important in the in the cause giving world. So he’s at Dave cause David has skill. Thank you very much. Real pleasure.

[00:55:56.14] spk_0:
Same here, tony. Anytime. Let’s not let five years go by until the next time.

[00:57:03.63] spk_1:
Well, you slipped up again this time by by putting me on the spot, which I said, I don’t like. So I will talk to you in 2028. Very good. Alright, David, Thank you. Next week, maybe it’s Kivi LaRue Miller. If not, she’ll be on soon. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives Prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and the free month Our creative producer is Prayer Meyerhoff shows social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scots. Tony, Thank you for that information. Scotty. You with me next week for non profit radio. You better be big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great.