Nonprofit Radio for December 6, 2019: Big Impact

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My Guest:

Vivien Hoexter: Big Impact
Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivien Hoexter is co-author of the book “Big Impact” and she shares lessons and reflections from the authors’ interviews for their book. (Originally aired 4/27/18)

 

 

 

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Transcript for 468_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20191206.mp3

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[00:00:13.24] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to

[00:01:19.44] spk_3:
tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% of your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with excess dough, sis if you shared the boneheaded idea that you missed today’s show. Big impact. Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivian Hexter is co author of the book Big Impact, and she shares lessons and reflections from the author’s interviews for their book that originally aired April 27th. 2018 on tony Steak to the Legacy Fallacy were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s a big impact.

[00:02:12.88] spk_0:
It feels so good to be back in the studio and to have a guest in the studio. She’s Vivian Hexter. She’s sitting here life. It’s unbelievable. She’s right here during extra, she’s co author with Linda Hartley of the book Big Impact insights and strategies from America’s non profit leaders. She’s a principal also with Linda Hartley of H two growth Strategies. I’m gonna ask her if she does anything without Linda Hartley if they’re married or they’re married to each other’s brothers or something. I don’t know. Um, also talking about this company name. I think you blew it, but we’ll get to that. Um, So what do Vivian and Linda do in H two growth strategies? They advise nonprofits and foundations in strategies, effective marketing and increasing revenues both earned and contributed. She also coaches executives. She was CEO of Gilda’s Club Worldwide. You know them? The red doors. Everybody knows them. They are at H two growth strategies dot com, and she is at the Hexter. Welcome, Vivian Dexter.

[00:02:20.84] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. It’s great to be here

[00:02:26.12] spk_0:
for pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Um, this book You, uh you interviewed lots of people. We did Hominy, Hominy, non profit leaders. Did you seek out

[00:02:31.76] spk_4:
near it Turned out to be nearly 50

[00:02:38.40] spk_0:
50. Okay, but the cover only has 21 pictures that the top 21 of the 50

[00:02:40.16] spk_4:
those air the 21 who are featured

[00:02:48.15] spk_0:
those eyes that how it works. Okay, those are the ones I read about that featured okay through. But then you had quotes from another 39. That’s that’s right. Okay. Over how many years you you talk to these people.

[00:02:58.61] spk_4:
So the process from start to finish took us about two years. The process of interviewing and then writing and editing and publishing the

[00:03:06.36] spk_0:
book. Now, how do we know that you’ve got the best 50 non profit minds? How did you select out of the thousands that are available? Really?

[00:03:11.24] spk_4:
Well, I have to say it’s a highly highly subjective

[00:03:14.12] spk_0:
list. Your friends Well, ones that would meet you on your timetable.

[00:03:59.21] spk_4:
In some cases, we knew the leaders before we approach them, but that was a really not very many of them did we know? So we really wanted to get a kind of a sampling of folks from the different, if you will, the verticals in the nonprofit sector. Because if you look for books on leadership, you find hundreds of corporate books, but not very many non profit books. And when we looked for non profit books on leadership, we found one for Christian leaders. One for Jewish leaders, one for museum directors. Ah, but not one for leaders who who work in any number of health, the environment. Education. So we really trying to get a broad sample of missions on dhe segments?

[00:04:21.51] spk_0:
Okay, So you thought through this project we did it is not just slapdash, no. Okay. Thrown together. All right, so the book is worthwhile. All right. I’m gonna make sure we got the brightest minds here. We’re gonna be talking for an hour. I don’t want to be. When we talk about advice from lackluster, lackluster leaders, we wouldn’t

[00:04:23.97] spk_5:
We wouldn’t dream of having

[00:04:29.10] spk_0:
poor performers. No, no, no, no. Okay. Okay. Um, now, you you mentioned before we went on air. You’re back in your neighborhood. This is the West seventies. Very comfortable to you.

[00:04:35.28] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. I love for 15 years.

[00:04:37.67] spk_0:
A life experiences, right? Yes. Within a few blocks of

[00:04:41.89] spk_4:
Yes. Yes, Like a trip down memory lane.

[00:04:43.23] spk_0:
All right. You said, uh, you said married. You say born. No, You weren’t born here. No married?

[00:04:50.51] spk_4:
No, no. Married when I was single. Then I was married for the first time. And then I was divorced,

[00:04:54.56] spk_0:
all within a few blocks of

[00:04:55.62] spk_4:
all within a few blocks

[00:05:01.84] spk_0:
with studio in West 72nd Street. All right, cool. Any place is Ah. Look familiar. The bank on the corner, Chase Bank. Oh, that’s where you had to divide your accounts. It’s where you go in there and get them to separate your mind. A nice That’s a That’s a lovely memory. Okay. Any other? Any good places?

[00:05:13.52] spk_4:
Oh, there’s some wonderful shops on Columbus Avenue

[00:05:17.59] spk_0:
top shoes. Still here? Oh, yes. Here’s

[00:05:19.72] spk_4:
the shop. I used to shop a tip top there. Good. Good place to share an

[00:06:28.06] spk_0:
excellent shoe store. What are, uh, by the way? Yes, I have a couple of shoes. The shoes of the roots I’m wearing today. The rain boots I’m wearing today. Tiptop shoes. Shout out to them. Uh, all right, so that’s free. Free media for them. All right. Um, let’s go back to your book. So you break it down into like, you have. You have a lot of interviews, Um, and you break it down into subjects, and then you and you and Linda comment on, you know, like leadership and getting your house in order and being persistent. It’s okay. So, uh, I I’m certainly gonna give you a chance to talk. About what? What’s tops for you. Like what stands out for you, But I come first. Absolutely. It’s your show. Thank you. Usually, I have to say that, you know, I have to remind guests I appreciate you’re acknowledging that without prompting leadership, I’d like to talk about the leadership leadership section. Huh. Um, you get some advice from, Ah, A few people have been on the show. Actually, Henry Timms has, uh, has been on. So I’m working on getting him back as he has a new book, you know, Does new power? Yes. Fine. Wegner. Figure out what new power is. Yes, and hear how you can embrace it. Own it. So we’re working on getting Henry Timms. Of course he’s the, uh I don’t have a CEO. Whatever. Executive director of 92nd Street y So he says he must, You know, build your your your e I your emotional intelligence as a part of leadership. Talk a little about being that humanist.

[00:06:45.01] spk_4:
Yeah. So? So you asked me What? What? What stood out for us? Or you said

[00:06:49.38] spk_0:
you were gonna let me about it comes if you if you can blend them together. That’s very talented,

[00:06:53.54] spk_4:
right? So, in fact, the

[00:06:56.15] spk_0:
don’t bother asking you later.

[00:07:40.04] spk_4:
The emotional intelligence of the leaders we spoke to was really, really striking. Tow us, Really striking. So and Henry Timms, I mean, almost to a person. And even if they admitted to not having been so emotionally intelligent when they were younger, they really, really focused on becoming that. And they clearly were. They admitted when they were wrong, they were able to turn tragedy into something greater. They they were working on diversity equity and inclusion, even if it was uncomfortable. If they were white males, for example, eso So they really they really exhibit kind of the the into to a great degree, the characteristics that you would want in a person you worked for?

[00:07:46.82] spk_0:
Yeah. Admitting you’re wrong. Yes. A bunch of people have touched on that. Yes, uh, being having uncomfortable conversations, um, sharing with staff when you’re not confident in something. Yes. You know, anything you want to flush out about why that makes you a good leader.

[00:08:05.13] spk_4:
Well, I think it’s it makes you a good leader in the in the 21st century. I don’t think it probably did in the past when leadership was about command and control and right. So but But in the 21st century, where, um,

[00:08:18.42] spk_0:
we’re here now? Yeah. This current?

[00:08:25.89] spk_4:
Yeah, where information is so readily available to everyone. It’s really important to be honest and vulnerable with your staff because they’re They’re probably gonna find out anyway if you

[00:08:46.53] spk_0:
Yeah. No, I’m sorry. I raised my She’s just so, like I wantto say the s o r. Scared her by raising my hand. Um, yeah. People think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. I think it’s actually sign of strength. It’s a sign of confidence that you are willing to be vulnerable in front of staff and audience, whatever.

[00:08:58.02] spk_4:
Right? But that’s because you’re a modern man.

[00:09:00.54] spk_0:
Thank you. All right, well, on that, we gotta go for a break. You believe that? All right, hold that thought. We’re gonna come back to that that immediate thought.

[00:09:32.70] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Do you need that kind of C p a. Would that be helpful for you wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to big impact.

[00:09:34.73] spk_0:
Now, let’s go back to Vivian Hexter. Um all right, So what was the last thing you said? Uh, it was a very poignant sentence. You said

[00:09:40.82] spk_4:
I said, You’re That’s because you’re a modern man.

[00:09:57.83] spk_0:
Was it? Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Thank you for refreshing my recollection. Yes. Okay. We’ll come back to that point a few times. Um, yeah. No, but I think vulnerability is a very good sign of confidence and and strong leadership. I mean, in front of an audience or your staff or whatever. You know, it’s a sign of strength and confidence, I think.

[00:10:00.49] spk_4:
Yeah, right, Right. And I think so, too. And so do the leaders in the book. I would say not everybody believes that right? In an hour analysis. This is one of the things that really is a sign of emotional intelligence and of being a great leader for the modern, for the modern, non profit, and I would argue corporate era.

[00:10:42.34] spk_0:
Okay, Excellent. And, uh, self awareness, too. I guess that’s all Rats wrapped up really? In every Yeah, right. Yes, I D’oh! D’oh! Okay, um, see what l see. If it’s ah, exploring, there’s some, uh, there’s some thoughts about exploring life and work. You you make some points about, um, be an explorer. There’s some advice in the book about not following the path that others follow right out of college. You know, follow your own path. But But you and Linda also have some commentary on being an explorer in life and work.

[00:11:19.88] spk_4:
Yes. So I think a lot of a number of our leaders said you should really make sure that when you’re in your twenties, you get out of the environment in which you grew up and go somewhere else. So if you are not able to go overseas, go to another state. If you live in the north, go to the south. If you live in the South, go to the North because the experience of living with and working in another culture really is a huge benefit to developing that self awareness, the cultural awareness that is so important to being a leader in the global.

[00:11:53.04] spk_0:
How does this help you? I’m not. I’m not opposed to the idea. Although I’d rather see more people from the south coming north than me from the north going south. But, uh, no. How is this? How would this help me, um, expand my my leadership capacity.

[00:12:01.31] spk_4:
So when one of the traits of leadership is to be able to put yourself in the other shoes at least I I think so. And if you take if you take yourself out of the environment that you’re most comfortable in that you grew up in and put yourself elsewhere physically, right, you’re gonna be with people, even in the U. S. If you move from the South to the north who are different from you, who think differently, dressed differently, have different pastimes. And certainly if you go abroad, you’re going to be in a completely other culture. So I worked for eight years for F s intercultural program,

[00:12:33.38] spk_0:
American Field Service High School.

[00:12:38.48] spk_4:
Yes. So I have a real bias on this one. I’ll admit that I that I think that the people who are best able to deal with others and persuade them inspire them. Lead them Lead change with them are those who have really gotten out of their comfort zones When they were early in their careers and gone elsewhere to live and work.

[00:12:59.37] spk_0:
So they know how that feels. They could be uncomfortable. So so that encouraging others to do it in your work. Let’s test something that we haven’t done. Let’s try something different. I want we’re gonna explore a program that we have done etcetera. You know what? That vulnerable vulnerability. You know what that feels like?

[00:13:14.10] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. Because you lived correct. You live that incredible discomfort of being a stranger in a foreign land.

[00:13:30.41] spk_0:
Someone else who’s been a guest on this show that you Ah, you profile on dhe interview is are you finger? We love our Yes, I do, too. CEO of Do something dot or ge took over from Nancy Lublin and then non Now also, of course, they’ve spun off T m I. And she’s Is she the CEO of tea? Mm. No, no, she’s only do something.

[00:13:45.22] spk_4:
No, no, she’s radio

[00:13:46.66] spk_0:
of C m iles

[00:13:47.76] spk_4:
CEO and Chief old person.

[00:14:10.84] spk_0:
Old person. Okay. Okay. Of both. Yeah, um so she, she admonishes, may be too strong. I don’t know. She encourages mentor ship Finding a mentor. Yes, finding a mentor when you’re getting started and being a mentor when you’re in the CEO ranks, or as you’re working your way up, what’s the value to the leader? Let go because we’re looking at from leadership perspective. What’s the value of mentoring?

[00:14:15.57] spk_4:
The value is number one. You’re reminded where you came from. And if you’re supervising younger employees, which you almost certainly are, that it helps you to be helping someone who’s trying to get a job somewhere. It helps you to remember what it was like

[00:14:31.82] spk_0:
mom or empathy.

[00:14:52.89] spk_4:
And ah, and it also honestly, to be a mentor feels good. It’s it’s Ah, it’s a way of passing the torch, not passing the torch. Exactly. It’s a way of, um, paying it forward if you will. On and really making sure that the next generation of leaders has the same has has the benefit of your wisdom while you’re still alive.

[00:15:03.43] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah. All right. How about for people who are younger, what’s the value of having a mentor?

[00:15:20.50] spk_4:
So it really you know, parents often tell their kids what not to do because they did it, and we’re sorry to do it. So you have to be a little careful, I think, because you want to help young people avoid some of the mistakes that you made when you were early in your career. Recognizing that they’re gonna have to make some themselves, you can’t prevent them from making some. But if you can point the way and if you can help them build their networks, which we all know, the networks are just critic

[00:15:44.38] spk_0:
critical for growing up. So if you want, if you want to continue in your career, you need tohave. Ah, robust professional network.

[00:15:51.51] spk_4:
Yes, yes, and a strong and powerful mentor who has lots of relationships from having been in the field for a long time. And if that person is generous and willing to share some of those relationships with you and introduce you to people, that’s one of the greatest values in mentor ship.

[00:16:09.42] spk_0:
Should you pursue a mentor? So now I’m looking at it from the person younger in there, non profit career, Uh, who’s in your organization or now you should really go outside. It’s kind of hard to open up to somebody because they’d be senior to you, right? That’s that. Seems little counterproductive.

[00:16:30.17] spk_4:
Yeah, I think it You really have to. If you want an authentic mentor relationship, you have to look outside

[00:16:36.34] spk_0:
the organization. Um, any What would you like to say? Now that has your chance. Um, now it’s all here, so your chance spotlight is on you, but leadership? Anything. Ah, you wanna You wanna add about leadership? That didn’t strike me?

[00:16:47.94] spk_4:
Um, no. I think what I want to do is talk a little bit about what happened after we did the interviews. Right? Because we had all of this material, right? And from having talked to nearly 50 people. And

[00:17:01.47] spk_0:
is it 50 or nearly 50? Now you’re You’re hedging,

[00:17:03.69] spk_4:
knows 47 but nearly 50 sounds, you know, more rounder, right? Yeah,

[00:17:39.79] spk_0:
but originally reset 50. No, it’s not 50. It’s 46 47 47 years. Structure. Precision. Absolutely. Your zeal. Read 21 profiles in the book, which is which are excellent. And then you’ll get you’ll get quotes from an additional, uh how many? 18 2020 28 people. That would be 40 maybe 49 2026 people. All right, let’s keep it straight on non profit radio. Yeah, absolutely. Don’t let the folks confuse you. No. Nor the guest, either. Okay,

[00:18:31.16] spk_4:
Uh, so the so we had all this material, this wonderful material, and we and we knew the book was about leadership because that’s what we set out, that the questions that we asked really were about leadership. But we thought, Oh, go. Oh, boy, The book has to be about something Maur than just leadership. And so what we discovered is that the book is really about the good news and social change. It’s about the how to make a lasting positive social change because many of the leaders we spoke with are actually doing that every day, making positive social change, often without a lot of fanfare, because it’s the nonprofit sector and no one has the money, the advertising budget that a Coca Cola or Pepsi has. And so So we wanted to do a couple things. We wanted people to recognize that in a time when there’s lots of not so good stuff happening, that there actually is a lot

[00:18:41.69] spk_0:
of a lot of good stuff

[00:19:06.11] spk_4:
happening. We wanted more people to know about that. Good stuff. Ah, and we wanted people to be ableto learn from the steps that these leaders outlined for us that became the principles of seven principles that bracket the book. We wanted people to be able to learn from that to make change in their own communities. Let you know. I mean, if they’re working in their own communities, it could be their states, their countries. But the idea is that there’s practical knowledge to be gained here as well as sort of principles. And what have you

[00:19:50.59] spk_0:
Yeah. No. And yeah, I like the details. I mean, that’s why you know, I like, you know, like find a mentor. Mentor? Yes. No. Up your game in. Ah, in emotional intelligence, etcetera. Yeah. All right. Um, can we Ah, I’d like to Ah, getting your house in order in your own organization upto up to where it should be. Right? Principle number two. Yeah, why don’t you Why don’t you overview that and why? It’s important to walk the walk and, um and then, you know, I’ll ask you I ask you something that stuck out for me.

[00:21:32.30] spk_4:
sure. So what? What are leaders told us? And we we really pretty much knew this already. So it was great to have all these leaders saying It is that if your organization is really functional and a good place to work in all the dimensions of what that means, then it’s going to be much easier for you, for your organization to be innovative and to have employees who stay in the organization rather than move on so quickly. Eso you’ll get good organization, you’ll get good institutional memory, and it’ll just be easier to make the change that that you wish to make that to achieve your mission, it’ll be easier and more effective. Ah, so and again, you know, getting your own house in order. It means a lot of things, right, So we have a sort of a selective list. You could list many, many, many things that a leader should do to make sure that his or her house is in order. But some of them include, and this is this is kind of ah ah, A stereotype Recruit talented, passionate employees. Ah, and then retain them. Ah, make sure you have a number two even if that person is not the obvious successor to you. Ah, those kinds of things, right? So in the kind of the human resource is, um, sphere, right? We thought these were really, really important. Make sure that that you’re working on diversity equity and inclusion. This is a, uh, something that all of our leaders are focused on now.

[00:21:35.34] spk_0:
And as a routine part of there. There there, work. It’s not a campaign, no campaign for divers. No, it’s just ongoing, always evolving. It’s always part of their hiring and retaining.

[00:22:04.85] spk_4:
Yes, this is It is another thing that really struck us about about what the leaders were saying is that they had you had to start somewhere when if you were working on diversity equity and inclusion and usually you have to start at the top. You know, the CEO would be the one to be the catalyst for it. But then you you could never stop. Uh, you and you had to keep addressing it from different angles and different levels of the organization, and that was something of a surprise to us.

[00:22:15.92] spk_0:
One of the people suggest hiring people that are smarter than you and including for your board. And he says, I don’t remember who it is, But he says everybody around him is smarter than him and again, including board. Um, again, you know, that’s that goes back to vulnerability. I mean, obviously, these things overlap, but, you know, getting talented people who fill gaps, that of knowledge that you were in the institution don’t have.

[00:22:41.04] spk_4:
Yes, it takes a lot of humility. Yeah. T be able to really do that. You know, everybody says to say it, but it is much harder to do. In practice, you really have to be vulnerable and humble to be able to admit that you don’t have all the skills, and you certainly don’t have a lock on the intelligence. Ah, and that seems to be It seemed to us to us to be a theme.

[00:23:34.65] spk_0:
You mentioned the hiring and, um, terror. This one I do know came from Terra Berry, CEO of National Court appointed special advocates. And it was interesting. Very poignant that she herself was a foster child. I did some training for a casa in, uh, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, someplace many years ago. Plan giving training. Um, she likes the idea of having a series of interviews to demonstrate a candidate’s commitment.

[00:23:37.11] spk_4:
We thought that was brilliant.

[00:23:38.37] spk_0:
You’re dragging them through? Yeah, yeah. You don’t keep showing up. If you have the patience for this, you can tolerate our work.

[00:23:43.81] spk_4:
Yes, yes. I thought that was really, really interesting. It’s part of the higher slowly fire quickly. Right. But it takes higher slowly to a whole new level, right where you should You keep creating excuses for the person to come back. Of course, its course. You planned it out right? But they come and they talk to one person, and then they come back and they get a tour, and then they come back and they talk to another person. Then they come back and talk to a volunteer. Or And the idea is that if they and particularly the young person, that if they have the patience to stay with you through a process that takes a couple of months, right,

[00:24:20.00] spk_0:
so interesting. Yeah, there are a few a few months

[00:24:30.13] spk_4:
that this that this could really, um, weed out some of the young people who just need a job and don’t have any interest in your mission. and really have no interest in the nonprofit sector.

[00:24:40.17] spk_0:
Yeah, they’ll just they’ll just drop it. I can’t tolerate that. It’s six along. Okay, um, somebody talks about, and it may have been you and Linda autonomy in decision making, giving employees autonomy, authority to make decisions.

[00:25:27.84] spk_4:
So that’s another s o. You know, Now you’ve got the talented, passionate employees, right? And you want to keep them. Ah, and one of the best ways to keep them is to give them autonomy and shale. Pollack house Sharansky, who runs a bank Street College of education. Ah was most articulate. I thought about this idea. Um, he talks about having been a, um, assistant principal in a high school in Queens. Doesn’t really matter. Um, and his boss was really, really clear with him about where they were meeting point a where they want, where he wanted him to get to meeting point B, but giving him great latitude in how to get from point A to point B with point B again being very clearly defined with measurable with metric since and so on. And I think if you think about bright people, they tend not all of them but they tend to want to try things they don’t want to be told what to do all the time. Ah, they really want to have the space to make decisions themselves. And this is what this is. What is meant by having having autonomy in this in this sense, and it’s a really again. It’s a really, really great thing to aspire to. It’s harder to do.

[00:26:22.54] spk_0:
Yeah, you have to have a lot of faith in the people you have employed. You have hired, uh, you have to be willing to delegate and give degrees of freedom

[00:26:26.40] spk_4:
and not micromanage

[00:26:41.31] spk_0:
right and and accept failure because everybody is not gonna make it to point B. You know, they’re gonna get derailed sometimes. Um, all those things I mean those right, those are all difficult. But But you tell me essential for growth, right? For the organization, growth individuals,

[00:26:45.90] spk_4:
Absolutely. And the idea being that you’re not, it’s not like you’re not going to check in with them between points and be right, you know, so that the things we’re really going awry, you’re gonna know it pretty early on. Ah, but yes. The idea is that autonomy is a critical part of growing up as as an employee and executive.

[00:27:19.15] spk_0:
It’s, um it’s Tom. Tom Dent, a CEO of Ah, Hugh Mentum. Who who says Take work seriously? Not yourself. Right. More humility. More vulnerability?

[00:27:45.60] spk_4:
Well, yes. And allowing laughter. Laughter not in the workplace. Yeah, laughter in the workplace. And maybe not just laughter around you, but sometimes laughter at you. You know, you make a silly statement or, you know, think about it. Really takes a lot of emotional intelligence to be able to allow people to laugh with you slash at you.

[00:27:51.34] spk_0:
It’s hard to imagine that in an office.

[00:27:54.24] spk_5:
Uh, well,

[00:27:56.19] spk_4:
I I’ve actually been in on it.

[00:28:27.44] spk_0:
That’s why I’m not an employee anymore. Wrong. I pick the wrong places. I would be a terrible employee. Now. I’m so autonomous that I would shoot myself in the interview just in an interview stage. I would, um, but yeah. No, I I’m thinking of the two CEOs. Yeah, there was No. Yeah. Now they would not have tolerated that, but it does with the nineties to, um Yeah, I mean, just yeah, don’t just just just be personable. I mean, just be a person nobody expects in this culture. We don’t We don’t expect perfection from our from our leaders.

[00:28:34.35] spk_4:
No. Well, maybe some people. D’oh! Ah, But what? We’re arguing that you that you don’t need to and that you shouldn’t.

[00:31:06.62] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software designed from the bottom up. Four Non profits. What does that mean for you? It’s got what nonprofits need. Like fund accounting grant and donor management. Exceptional customer support. Fraud prevention. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take Two. The Legacy fallacy. I’ve been seeing this for years. Uh, plan giving promotional materials that talk about the potential donors legacy will help you plan your legacy. Uh, think about your legacy legacy giving on it. It got to the my, uh, front of my consciousness because I just did a webinar recently, and one of the questions lead with the premise that, you know, I know we have to talk about legacy giving, but and then he went on to ask, ask the rest of the question Um and I, uh I disagreed with his premise that you have to talk about legacy giving, and I disagree with the whole idea that legacy should be an important part of your plan giving promotion. I’ve had thousands of conversations with people in their sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, and very, very rarely I can’t even remember. But I’m gonna I’m just assuming it’s come up once or twice, but it’s extraordinarily rare. Folks are just not thinking of themselves as leaving a legacy, creating a legacy. If your donors are, uh, George Soros or Donald Trump, they probably think of legacy. The average doner, the average plan gift donor. I hardly ever hear it. I can’t remember a time that I did, but I’m being generous. Um, it is not essential to talk about legacy giving, and I don’t think it’s right. I think it’s a mistake. That’s not what your donors are thinking about themselves as a legacy. They just think of themselves as donors as supporting your cause. In their estate plan. There’s more on the video and the video. You know where the video is. It’s called the Legacy fallacy, and it’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Stick to let us continue with Vivian Hexter and big impact.

[00:31:27.78] spk_0:
Thank you, Vivian Dexter for obliging me. Ah, well, I do that. Thank everybody. Vivian. Of course. Co author of the book with Linda Hartley. Big impact. Um, there are consultancy is H two growth strategies dot com. Um, yeah. So I have someone I want to ask you about. That I think you blew it. The company name age to grow. It should be a TSH to grow. You should stop hte and then you get the water. Get the H two grand. I get the h two Hexter and Hartley. I get that h to grow. We should be h to grow And then we feed your roots We water your leaves. I don’t You know you could It’s to grow.

[00:31:47.90] spk_4:
Oh, wow. What? We’ll have to We’ll have to look and see

[00:31:49.89] spk_0:
take and should be h to grow

[00:31:51.72] spk_4:
Yeah, you’d be surprised by how difficult it is. Or maybe you wouldn’t be to get a girl that’s not taken

[00:32:41.24] spk_0:
tony-martignetti dot com was not to Ah, wasn’t is not very popular. Now I got to compete with the martignetti liquor dynasty up in the Boston Massachusetts era. Uh, you said you You told me earlier. You vacation on Cape Time? God, Do you know the martignetti liquor dynasty? A liquor stores, maybe. All right, there. They’re up there. You direct their supermarkets of liquor. Maybe Maybe our listeners. A lot of the settlers in Somerville, Mass. May know them, but these air supermarkets not just look corner stores. And but I got tony-martignetti dot com. I don’t know. Maybe they don’t have any Tony’s I don’t know. Um, I couldn’t get martignetti dot com They have that, uh, liquor barons. Okay. Um, I was also gonna owe Gilda’s club. Yeah, the red doors. Yeah. Yeah. You were CEO of Guilt for years.

[00:32:55.70] spk_4:
I waas and ah, it’s a wonderful organization. It’s now part of the wellness community. It merged with the wellness community after I left. At the time, we had maybe

[00:33:03.95] spk_0:
drive it into the ground, did it then? That’s why they merge. Know that there were There were inference. You made the inference available. I want us. I want to feel

[00:33:45.36] spk_4:
Yeah. Okay, go for it. So there were about 30 Gilda’s clubs throughout North America and I had to visit everyone. Ah, and we I inherited an organization where the founder and principal funder was us was beginning to, um, not want to be the sole supporter of the organization any longer, okay? And so we had to build the board, and I have a board that would really contribute in fundraise a significant amount. And we, um we doubled the revenue in the time I was there. We developed? Yeah, it was It was a good It’s a wonderful organization, you know? It provides emotional and social support for people with cancer, Their families and friends.

[00:34:13.51] spk_0:
Yes. Oh, families and friends, too. I was just for the cancer patient survivor. No, not true. Okay, um let’s see, uh, what would you like to talk about? I have other topics. I want good, But what what strikes you about all these 47 interviews? What? What moves you the most?

[00:34:16.64] spk_4:
It was inspiring to talk to these leaders.

[00:34:19.59] spk_0:
Inspiration? That’s one of things I want to talk about. All right.

[00:34:29.51] spk_4:
It’s really, really inspiring. I mean, Thio be able. You know, we asked some fairly intimate questions like, What’s the What’s the worst and best thing that’s ever happened to you in your life? And what did

[00:34:36.91] spk_0:
you mean? What’s your definition of happiness. Yes. You know, all these interviews face to face,

[00:34:40.80] spk_4:
many of them were face to face. Any

[00:34:42.79] spk_0:
of them were my phone probably tried to do face. We tried to do it face to

[00:36:07.53] spk_4:
face. Yes, but even even on the phone, right. These and and in many in most instances, in some instances, wth e leaders had asked to see the questions beforehand. But in some instances, they had not seen them. So they were really kind of, um uh, we got there sort of their raw, fresh first response to some of these questions and it really the way that many of them have turned tragedy into achievement into empathy into mission. It’s really you mentioned Tara Perry at the National Casa. Ah, and you know Leon Botstein at Bard College, whose daughter was killed when she was seven years old, crossing the street to get to the bus. Ah, and he, you know, that was early on in his time at Bard. And, uh, he said, you know, his first impulse was to throw himself out the window, but what he did was he built, barred into really ah force to be reckoned with and and highly innovative place. You know, they were the first to teach in prisons, or among the first Ah, they were They haven’t this early college, which they now have not just in the U. S. But around the world where kids can earn associate degrees in there. Four years of high school. Ah, and so is highly innovative place. Um And he So I one has to believe, right, that he took that tragedy and sort of turned that took that anger, energy, whatever, and put it into building barred into the institution that it is

[00:36:22.65] spk_0:
for Children. I mean, well, not for for for college students, but you know that his child never got to be

[00:36:28.16] spk_4:
Yes, yes. Oh, yes. So So it’s really was really inspiring to to hear this, to hear that wisdom and to hear how willing these, uh, leaders were to share with us. So that was another thing that surprised us. We knew a few of them before, but most of them we didn’t know and ah, and we only had I would say, of all the people we asked, we only had one or two turndowns, and that was a very you know, like high level, Incredibly busy. So

[00:36:59.73] spk_0:
let’s not focus on the one or two.

[00:37:01.13] spk_4:
No, no, no, no. But my point is that

[00:37:03.75] spk_0:
going to share

[00:37:08.84] spk_4:
willing to share And I think partially again because people don’t ask non profit leaders a lot about their strategies and their insight. They ask corporate leaders, right, not non profit leaders. So to be able to talk about what was important to them and how they got into where they are and what they see for the future was really, um, really felt good to them. Ah, and and we’re hopeful that the people who read the book will want to learn more about some of these organizations and possibly support

[00:37:59.65] spk_0:
them At least let it certainly learned and get inspired by the book. Get the book, for Pete’s sake. It sze called big impact. Um, just get the thing, you know, we can’t We can’t cover it all in an hour. Um, now No, she she endorses. No, certainly not. Um, persistence. Another another ah. Topic you get you to talk about, um somebody says somebody says, Oh, this is ah, Evan Wolfson, president of Freedom to Marry. You cannot win every battle, but Lou’s forward. What you talking about,

[00:39:22.67] spk_4:
what he’s saying? For So, for example, so a freedom to marry Waas, one of the key organizations in winning legalization of gay marriage, equality. And Evan worked on this for 32 years from the time he wrote his law school thesis about it. And I have to say he Evan is brilliant. Ah, and he described to us some of the strategies that freedom to marry and its coalition used to win gay marriage. And when he talks about losing forward, want an example of that is going to the South and having an having activity campaigns in the South, even though he knew they knew it would be much more difficult to get people in the South to really before gay marriage. But they knew they had to engage with the people in the South. They had to engage all over the country. And, um, the same is true, you know, in certain cultures, arm or conservative, like the Latino culture. Ah, and they engage. They had they had campaigns with Latinos, they had campaigns with African Americans, and they just kept pushing forward, even though again they knew that they weren’t gonna win everybody’s. They weren’t gonna win all hearts and minds, right? Onley only enough to make it happen.

[00:40:30.86] spk_0:
So there’s the inspiration. He worked on this for over 30 years of his law school thesis. Yes, Excuse me. And, um, you know, there’s there’s someone who’s been on the show. Paul Lo Big wrote a book called The Impossible Will Take a little while. You know, you have to stay with this somebody someone of one of the people you you interview says that a profound change takes time. That might have been you. And Linda said that a profound change takes time. Um, but you know, that’s part of the inspiration that, to me that which feeding that is the, uh, the vision that the leader brings to the organization and and the incremental steps toward that vision, whether it’s eliminating poverty, you know, in ah, in metropolitan Boston, you know, whatever it is that that commitment division and then and bringing people together who said who loved who support that vision and are willing to work at it for 30 years

[00:40:38.24] spk_4:
and celebrate the small victories right and and really be good at doing that. Celebrate the small victories and making sure that your people are taking care of themselves so that they don’t get burnt out.

[00:40:56.79] spk_0:
Life balance. Yeah, One of your I think it’s I have a bill. Bill Uhlfelder talks about life balance and says, If you’re if you’re waiting to get kind of connected your family over vacations and sabbaticals, you know, you’re you’re losing your family. Yes. Balance, right? Yes. It’s essential for persistence.

[00:41:24.28] spk_4:
Well, it is. It is. So this is one where our leaders were sort of all over the map. Okay? Most of them were striving for work. Life balance, right, Most of them. And then a few were unapologetically workaholic. And one said, um, there’s no such thing as work, life, balance. There’s just life, and work is a part of it. That was Larry Kramer at the William

[00:41:33.98] spk_0:
and Flora Hewlett Foundation. No, life is a part of it. All right, That’s fair. That’s yes. That’s a decent Balan,

[00:41:38.49] spk_4:
right? I objective. Yes. Yeah, I think I think Larry works pretty hard.

[00:41:49.72] spk_0:
Okay. Um all right, well, yeah. Um, it’s something. It’s a life practice.

[00:41:51.32] spk_4:
Absolutely. I’m I’m sort of joking. Yes, we. We believe that work life balance is essential, particularly when you’re working on seemingly intractable problems that will take a while to solve.

[00:42:03.00] spk_0:
Impossible will take a little while. All right,

[00:42:30.00] spk_3:
Time for our last break. Do you ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they worked to build relationships with journalists. Who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do that. Their former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage there at turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for big impact

[00:43:05.74] spk_0:
animated and then bring it back down. What a talent on what? A talent. It’s just unfortunate that one took prompting. Um, okay, so yes, we’re striving for balance. It’s a life’s practice. Don’t give it up. I mean, don’t just don’t just, ah, surrender and say my family’s gotta wait. No, My loved ones have to rate my friends, even friends go to your go to a college reunion now and then. High school reunion now and then connect. Yes. Okay. Anything. What? You want to say that Yes, like you’re exhausted. It It’s just essential right?

[00:43:07.96] spk_4:
It’s it’s essential, but both Linda and I believe strongly in it.

[00:43:34.70] spk_0:
I was just at a college reunion last weekend. Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon. Uh oh. Fraternity. A bunch of guys got together. So it’s on my mind on my mind. And plus I’m always admonishing. I probably am. I’m not just encouraging are probably I’m admonishing. That’s I think that’s the right word. Listeners through the show and videos like sometimes wag my finger in a video. Um, take time for yourself. You know, if you want to give your in a giving profession if you want to give effectively, I think you have to take yes. And taking is being selfish and taking time for yourself and your family, and sometimes even just for yourself, like quiet solitude kind of time. If you want to give, I believe you have to take

[00:43:51.55] spk_4:
yes, yes, and all too often I think in nonprofits, the feeling of there’s great. Believe it, feeling of intensity about having to accomplish the mission. So it’s hard to to do that to take the time that is essential

[00:44:16.57] spk_0:
you got. And you gotta make the time, right? Yeah, Zach is gonna find it. I can never find the time. Yeah, well, time is not gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, here I am. You found me. You gotta affirmatively make the time. Yes, yes. Don’t keep trying to find it. No, not gonna. It’s not gonna make itself apparent to, you

[00:44:23.13] spk_4:
know. And it’ll be uncomfortable at first to take the time.

[00:44:28.04] spk_0:
Yeah, right. The first time you may

[00:44:30.12] spk_4:
be the first half doesn’t

[00:44:48.63] spk_0:
I’m abandoning ship. Yeah. How are they gonna get along without Yeah? Well, you need to have the humility to recognize that they can write. All right. See how this all fits together. Just get the book, for God’s sake, it so it all fits together. Um, okay. Uh, you mentioned Larry Kramer Hewlett Foundation, did you not? Yes. Is it? He says relationships matter in this in this persistence and, um, drive toward mission. You know, relationships talk about relationships.

[00:45:25.55] spk_4:
So what Larry is saying, it actually is that for him, life is all about relationships. It’s more than just the mission, right? You know, it is the mission, but to him, it’s it’s That’s what That’s what it’s about. And I think it’s particularly important in the nonprofit world because so many of the missions of the organizations that we work in are have social missions right there about either caring for people or teaching people to care for themselves. Or and so it’s really, really important to be able to relate well to people because there’s also the fact that in the nonprofit sector you can’t play. P pent can’t pay people top dollar Ah, and so there have to there have to be other benefits toe working inside a non profit. And one of those is having caring relationships with the people you work with

[00:45:59.34] spk_0:
and also organizational relationships. Partnering type Liz Yes, lash out that

[00:46:42.37] spk_4:
because these days, right? So number one funders like partnerships increasingly. And you know, we have lots and lots of non profits in this country over a 1,000,000 of them, and maybe a few too many on the ah lot of the missions of those organizations are complimentary on, and so I think it’s really incumbent on organizations to make strategic partnerships a priority. It’s it’s it’s It’s critical not only because funding is limited, because funders like partnerships, but because you get more done for less money.

[00:47:07.14] spk_0:
Yeah. There’s a synergy. Yes. Uh, we’ve had guests on talking about how to find the right partners. Get your board by in the board. The board process of formal partnerships and things. Um, yes. All right. So explore those, you know, Think about those, um, So I’m gonna turn back to you. Let’s talk about something that interests you in the book that we haven’t talked about yet. Great. You know, gets all your book. She’s she’s I feel I feel bad for the guests to bring notes or but she’s in that Vivian doesn’t know what she’s been clutching her book, but they never get a chance to read the notes. They bring them, they feel security. I tell them they won’t have time. They hold the notes anyway. And then, um, they never get a chance to look at them because, you know, because we’re having a conversation. What did you find? You. You peruse your table of contents? Yes, I did.

[00:47:43.08] spk_4:
I did. So I I want to go back to Evan Wolfson because I really think that if you read the interview with Evan Wolfson that that interview is kind of a lesson in how to make social change evidence. The on Lee, one of the 47 leaders who has accomplished his mission completely and disbanded his organization.

[00:47:59.77] spk_0:
That’s that’s telling that never happens. Usually, organizations expand to find a new mission.

[00:49:28.46] spk_4:
So Evan now is, ah, high level advisor to other countries around the world that where people are trying to get gay marriage legalized, and he also consults to some. I think now he’s consulting to immigration organizations in this country to try to help them. Ah, but he no longer has an organization himself, and I think his, um the the understanding, how freedom to marry and it’s coalitions achieved. The mission is it’s really instructive. It’s really a It’s like a primer in how to make positive social change. Because he did, he did all of it. They got He got really clear about the goal. That’s one of the principles and learned how to articulate it persuasively and and specifically, at a certain point, learned that if you made it about, um, the legal aspect of of gay marriage in the public eye, it was not gonna be as effective as if you talked about giving people um, make having people be ableto love who they wanted to love. At a certain point in the campaign, they really switched the way they talked about gay marriage, and that was really critical to it becoming possible. Uh, and then another principle is build. So you have to campaign on many fronts you have, and you have to build broad based coalition.

[00:49:36.39] spk_0:
Let’s talk about the many fronts. That’s a section of the book. Yeah,

[00:50:30.83] spk_4:
so the the idea is that you really this is sort of the partnership idea is part of part of this, that you can’t do it alone and that if you’re not striving to influence the private sector and government, which are the two dominant sectors in our economy, then you’re really not going to make lasting social change. And so you have to work with those sectors. You have to learn how to talk to those sectors on, and, um, and you have to be working on lots of different levels all at once, because otherwise it’s not gonna happen. And that includes, um, working with faith based organizations, which some people, some organizations, know how to do, and others don’t but and again. Leon Botstein at Bard makes a really, really interesting point about this. He says that somehow a lot of us, particularly on the coast, I guess have sort of decided that, um, faith based organizations are not important anymore that, you know, because of the increasing secularization of our society that we don’t need to worry about them. But the truth is that they’re very particularly in the middle of the

[00:50:55.18] spk_0:
country. So that may be true in some parts of very powerful on a vast board,

[00:51:15.10] spk_4:
right? Very, very powerful. And we And if you really want to make social change in your community, you’re gonna have to work with those organizations because they’re often the ones that are already working on it, right? They have. They have the soup kitchen. They have the, um, the homeless shelter. You know, they’re they’re already actively engaged in making change or taking care of the people in their communities. And so you really have to reach out to them.

[00:51:57.41] spk_0:
And they’re in the community there. Yes, there the communities, they know the local leaders, whether they’re the official leaders of the unofficial leaders, if you want to work in it, Yeah. If you wanna make real change and work in the grassroots, you need to know who the unofficial leaders are. Direct in the community. Yes. And your faith based the the organization’s Know that stuff? Yes. There, there, they’ve been They’ve been there for decades and generations. Yes. Okay. Um, yeah. So you Ah, you’re sort of where we just have a couple minutes left together. What? What struck you about some of the questions you got answers. You got to the question. You asked everybody. How do you define happiness?

[00:52:43.25] spk_4:
So, you know, it’s Ah, that’s a highly personal question, right? I mean, in the sense in the sense that it’s different for everyone and some of our leaders, because their lives are so frenetic, all they want is peace and quiet. To them, that’s happiness. But that’s regal. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then for some, it’s being with their families and, you know, spending time with the people they love. Ah, and you know, interestingly when we had not a lot of them said, um, you know, happiness is sitting at my desk for 12 hours a day for

[00:52:51.10] spk_0:
a lot of money or

[00:52:52.24] spk_4:
a lot of No, no, that not this group. Not this girl. Now and again. That’s part of the emotional intelligence, right? Isn’t understanding what really makes life worth living, which is relationships and meaningful work and all of those things.

[00:53:11.60] spk_0:
Okay, um, let’s see. What do you love about the work you’re doing?

[00:53:24.08] spk_4:
Well, I’ve always been mission driven tony out. You know, I got an MBA, and I tried to work in the corporate world, but I wasn’t happy. And Senator, Lord and Taylor, I was there in that fire lord, and then I was that I was at best foods as a product manager. Didn’t work. No. No. And so what really makes me happy is, um, is helping to make positive change in the world. I mean, that’s and helping the underdog. I’ve always wanted to help the underdog.

[00:54:01.32] spk_0:
You gotta leave it there. All right. She’s Vivian Dexter. Get the book, For God’s sake. It’s called big Impact insights and strategies from America’s Big Impact Insights and Stories. Who wrote strategies. I needed an intern to blame for this insights and stories from America’s non profit leaders. If I had an intern, they’d be fired. If you want to recommend anybody, Let me know.

[00:54:37.28] spk_3:
Next week it Zombie loyalists with Peter Shankman. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Creative

[00:54:50.27] spk_2:
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Nonprofit Radio for November 22, 2019: Recruiting Your Next CEO

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My Guest:

Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO
“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Author Dennis Miller walks us through. (Originally aired 12/22/17)

 

 

 

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[00:01:52.10] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with extra fee if you turn to my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next CEO as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer. End quote. So starts the book. A Guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO. Author Dennis Miller walks us through that originally aired on December 22nd 2017 on tony Stake to Last Call for Innovators were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Let’s get started with recruiting your next CEO. I’m glad that I can welcome Dennis Miller back then A C. Miller. He’s a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than 35 years experience working with non profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s managing director of the nonprofit Search Group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, His Fifth, is a guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO, the Executive Search Handbook for non profit Boards. You’ll find Dennis and his book at Dennis c. Miller dot com. He’s at Dennis C. Miller, and I’m very glad that his book brings him back to non profit radio. Welcome back, Dennis C. Miller.

[00:02:04.96] spk_0:
Happy to be back, tony.

[00:02:07.65] spk_3:
Well happen years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you, what is the sea for? In Dennis c miller dot

[00:02:16.33] spk_5:
com and

[00:02:19.24] spk_0:
Charles my father’s names. So many Dennis mellows and grammar school in high school we put in and I’m very proud to be

[00:02:26.45] spk_3:
Charles. All right. You don’t mind if I don’t call you Dennis C. Miller the whole hour, though

[00:02:29.68] spk_5:
I just call

[00:02:30.56] spk_0:
me dad. You’re like,

[00:02:33.46] spk_3:
OK, now, Dennis, we have to be. And it has to be anymore. Denigrating the dentist. Venice. Fine. Now you’re by phone. You’re in. You’re in Los Angeles. Is that right?

[00:02:41.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m actually in the Los Angeles area of isn’t That’s a business appear this week. And now we’re spending time my wife and I with our two sons and their families and grandson out here in Los Angeles and heading up to Santa Monica, Santa Monica Pier right after the show. So

[00:03:03.90] spk_3:
All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want, take off now, we could just bag the whole thing. You need to go. Public transportation is gonna leave in five minutes or something, or you’re OK.

[00:03:08.12] spk_5:
Oh, you’re okay for the

[00:03:37.83] spk_3:
hour. Okay, now, remember the last time you were here, you almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. You’re you’re ah. Um, your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You need a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to Los Angeles, And this way you can call him by phone. Okay? You don’t worry about running running to the studio, okay? Okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what I was saying? No salmon. Every little word

[00:03:40.59] spk_5:
had a regular. You may have.

[00:03:41.29] spk_3:
No, you did. You had a high. You definitely had a heart, a heart because your face was red. All right, Um, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome?

[00:04:38.17] spk_0:
Well, think about it that there’s probably over a 1,000,000 more. There’s more than a 1,000,000 non profit around the country and with the number of people that are dissipate to retire over the next five plus years on any research a staggering, sometimes closing 75% the the vast majority of people went into the non public sector, and leadership positions were baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the community. So there’s a lot of retirement going on, and the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next CEO. And on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing. So it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit in. Actually, that’s why I wrote the book

[00:04:44.83] spk_3:
OK, 75% turnover in the next 10 years we’re gonna have,

[00:04:54.41] spk_0:
I’d probably less. I mean, it’s It’s quite a bit if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, you know, it’s now 2017 and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needing.

[00:05:18.54] spk_3:
One of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hire a such consultant. Now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book, you’re biased. But can you weigh the pros and cons for us?

[00:05:23.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Listen, um, I’m biased. Certainly if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, I think the book will help them with that.

[00:05:30.04] spk_5:
Uh, sure you want

[00:06:28.17] spk_0:
to go in alone Is this year you have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s gonna be needed for the board members to not only identify the profile of the next candidate but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved. I lay out those steps in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures, that they’re gonna be pain and most trees probably in the area of someplace between 20 to 35%. All cases, 25 that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet, so you wanna have an expertise. There’s like anything else you need a lawyer of financial account. You’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own. And the other aspect, tony, for people who want to go about on their own, is by just posting sort of ads and social media, whatever. You’re gonna only get two people that are looking for a job and you don’t know either how good they are, how well performing they are if they’re happy a search from is gonna recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What? I have

[00:06:46.44] spk_3:
those percentages that you quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is

[00:06:52.11] spk_5:
that yes.

[00:06:59.72] spk_0:
So someone makes ah a position whether the CEO, our CFO or development unable to save the position was 100,000

[00:07:01.00] spk_5:
dollars. You

[00:07:01.95] spk_0:
know, the average three is gonna be $25,000. But this day, five years, it’s $5000 a year, which comes out to about $100 a week or 20 hours of any. And you know, the thing about it’s probably the smartest investments that aboard wouldn’t want to make.

[00:07:23.99] spk_5:
Okay, Noah, particularly you get the right portion. Okay? And I

[00:07:24.54] spk_3:
guess the main advantage of going in on your own is you’re saving that fee.

[00:07:28.54] spk_0:
Well, you saving the feeble you also, you better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna

[00:07:33.84] spk_5:
happen. That

[00:07:34.43] spk_0:
so that you poisoned cons here. But most most really good organizations will use a search firm for certain keys positions.

[00:07:45.03] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before Ah, first break, Dennis. Oh, let’s just identify that this CEO change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so. This could be an opportunity. A great opportunity.

[00:08:30.56] spk_0:
What? How you look at him and I’m We’re doing a search right now. When we’ve got the finalists. Been seen by the search committee and beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm and, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from not a crisis to. This is a phenomenal opportunity to not just take it, get a new leader, but to have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while or fairly new. It’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So what if the glass is half full? It’s I look at it is very exciting time when organization most clients feel the same way,

[00:09:30.24] spk_3:
all right, and we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this. Right now, it’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. If that kind of C p. A. Could be valuable for you. Your non profit. Then check out wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the, uh We got some live listener love. Let’s do it good. We do. And we’ve got Seoul. South Korea s o. I gotta tell you, soul. So, uh, so consistent. Such loyal listeners in Seoul, South Korea On your HASA an io io comes a ham nida, which does not

[00:09:30.77] spk_4:
mean live. Listen, love out to you, but I’m

[00:10:47.14] spk_3:
grateful Soul always with us. Thank you. Um, Victoria that they can. Krista In Brazil, there will be a brain a star this on da lively love Love out to, uh, Brazil. Thank you for being with us. Ashburn, Virginia Tampa, Florida, New York, New York and, uh oh, another South Korea Chung Wan The same greeting goes to Chung Wan annual Hasso come So ham Nida. Glad you’re with us. I love it and they’ll be more, but I felt like doing the live love earlier today. And the podcast Pleasantries. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for being a podcast listener of non profit radio. I’m glad that we fit into your podcast listening wherever it is and whenever it is pleasantries to the podcast listeners, Let’s go back to recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book recruiting, Ah, guide to recruiting your next CEO and Dennis C. Miller. So let’s talk about that. That possibility for assessment you Ah, you say that you might, uh, considered doing strategic planning, I guess, if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next CEO

[00:12:12.61] spk_0:
Yeah, well, the you know the question always is You know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do you hire a CEO or do you hire or chief development officer before you have a plan and and, uh, kind of it’s up. It’s up to decline the organization, but give me a couple examples whites sort of better to at least an idea of where you want to go on what you want to achieve. So let’s say you wanted to. You go out and hire a CEO, hoping that they will build your plan and let some party. A plan is to be more involved in philanthropy. More involved in the cultivating. So seeing donors, what if that seal he just hired doesn’t have that experience? Well, now you’re stuck. So what if your need is to grow your board and the new CEO? Yes. Sorry doesn’t have that. So one of the things that I recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan. But certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision. Where you headed. Will you want ahead? What? Some of the big strategic goals you have? Um, what things that you need to get done. And then, obviously it’s much easier than to identify the the characteristics of the qualities and experience of the CEO. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for you organization. So that’s why it’s important to take a look at kind of way. You want to go before

[00:12:21.57] spk_3:
you say that If you’re not gonna do a full full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are.

[00:12:45.52] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are some people that don’t do a full blown strategic plan. I think that you could do that, but I think more importantly, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life cycle as an organization and as a board. Um And then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of, Well, you’re at that helps us or dramatically beginning the on boarding closet with your next CEO. So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind. So I do think that you wanna have and I point this out in the book. You want to have a sense of your strategic vision where you’re heading and pick up some of the key goals were having Yes. So when you’re interviewing came that you want to make sure their line with those gold here and it makes much smoother transition,

[00:13:24.42] spk_3:
some of the goals you lay out besides mission envision our fundraising and development. You know what you wanna do around that? You’re bored CEO relationship? Your programs and service is andi Course. You know, the book explains what goes into detail each of those, but, um,

[00:13:31.78] spk_5:
I had a couple of

[00:13:45.44] spk_0:
it. Certainly, you know, you walk additional capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have, Ah, plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you? Border. You building the right board? Are you branding your organization and communicating that the impact you’re having? It’s important things today, So there’s a lot of, ah, strategic goals that one should be having with this pauses. And, uh, you want to get a sort of buying from your board and have the new CEO committed help implement this employee.

[00:14:33.50] spk_3:
And okay, so this new CEO is gonna have need to have some skills, and you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing CEO are. We want to be thinking beyond that. I mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is gonna do is help you look forward, not current. You know you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current CEO’s talents, but you want to build on those for the for the future, and you identify a whole bunch of potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit relationship builder, et cetera. But you wanna be going beyond the current.

[00:15:37.66] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s easy question when you have someone you know, Uh, you know, what kind of ah kind of deal are you looking for? And that the person who’s been in the job for the past 10 50 years for name is Surely people would be like someone like Charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that your previous CEO had may be silly, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that I have in the book in another books. In my work, I D’oh tony, is the idea of today’s competencies were, uh, executive leadership, non public sector, dramatically different than they were 5 10 years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past, you know, aboard, we’re looking for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relationship in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out and get a grant. Though their skills are still important. Today they look for more than just kills but compensation traits such as they want a visionary thinkers today, when the House, the CEO or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for CEOs to create their own vision

[00:15:55.82] spk_5:
cream organization.

[00:16:34.49] spk_0:
I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of creative vision number two. Certainly people want the idea of relationship. Will the building relationships outside inside the organization, someone who’s a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is important, ships that you need not just managed and when you got So is a whole series of conferences that identify in the book, including, you know, being a collaborative non about how big of a budget you have in control. It’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass is out there for CEOs and executives, but I use the term some of the CEO jacket director do all the time.

[00:17:04.11] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s fair. That’s fair Fares. Similarities. Yeah, of course. Um, I did have a guest years ago. Uh, Eugene Fram he was a professor at I think he was a university of Rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the CEO. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and CEO. That chief executive makes it less likely doesn’t make no guarantee. But let’s like that. Board members will get involved in the nitty gritty, the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging a CEO versus an executive director. I did you give any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one over the other

[00:17:40.10] spk_0:
radio. You know, tony, the point you’re raises a really good one, and I do have a pilot in the book of my work. But I do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer, um, the more contemporary title is board, ship or support president. What you kind of the past is, um, it may just be words, but I think they have a lot of

[00:17:42.99] spk_5:
connotations. They do find themselves.

[00:17:53.44] spk_0:
I’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top lay personal pipe a person should be the president CEO, and I think that was profit last year right there. When you’re out there with donors. So it’s more than just an executive director, um, overseeing the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen. I do. I do before the word CEO

[00:18:07.92] spk_3:
on and also executive director. I mean, that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non profit term

[00:18:13.17] spk_5:
way. Want to think that

[00:18:15.38] spk_3:
running like businesses run this thing like a business happens to be a nonprofit corporation?

[00:18:19.26] spk_5:
But don’t tell

[00:18:22.79] spk_0:
mother interviews with you. It’s came up the term, you know, non properties. You tax

[00:18:26.85] spk_5:
that business

[00:18:29.26] spk_0:
plans. I think it’s important that today’s title be CEO. I just really think that’s important Title that have

[00:18:38.81] spk_3:
Let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing.

[00:20:03.91] spk_0:
Well, clearly, I think the this you know that in terms of size of the dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on this? It’s absolutely who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experience with search, maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good. That’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of 12 to 15 people, you may want a search committee of maybe five, maybe seven maximum. But I’ve seen larger or smaller, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two be tremendous amount of time commitment. So the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be an involvement here in some time. And then obviously the key part of that will be who will be your share of the search committee. In some cases, it’s a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, lot of people ask me all the time would it be okay tohave the form of a former board chair, a strip search committee? And I would say, Maybe I would say, maybe on Lee, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for

[00:20:09.73] spk_5:
the future, not so much because

[00:20:10.19] spk_0:
they won’t know exactly what they’re looking for.

[00:20:12.06] spk_5:
You all right?

[00:20:21.88] spk_0:
This is committee has got to be a forward, approaching organization, afford poaching committee. I think that’s kind of that’s something that I would be looking for a nose of membership.

[00:20:25.04] spk_3:
What about an employee putting one on one employee on the committee?

[00:20:28.94] spk_0:
I don’t think that’s a good idea. Actually, I think it’s a bad

[00:20:32.91] spk_5:
idea.

[00:20:33.45] spk_0:
Come out Whiter Bay and say not give example.

[00:20:36.04] spk_5:
Okay,

[00:21:21.00] spk_0:
Uh, I’ve had people wondering to put the, you know, you know, the current CEO on the search committee, and I The answer is no. Then Walvis of the current CEO, Timmy, and help in the search committee and the consultant, or either inside or outside of what a search committee helped develop aspects of the position profit. What will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next CEO? But the board hires and fires a CEO. It’s also very uncomfortable for a current CEO to be on the search committee. I had a case where, um, it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that I helped with succession planning in. They had an internal candidate for the position, and when the search committee as this person, what changes would you make? She’s very awkward to be talking about the changes you want to make with

[00:21:29.27] spk_5:
us. Of course. Right

[00:21:43.45] spk_0:
eye. But now there’s times when you get there, some people that have their VP of HR on the search committee of the knee that lays on. But remember, people, it’s not a good idea. Have staff. It’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his board Members of Donald.

[00:21:49.42] spk_3:
Okay, predominately. And then you said, maybe a volunteer,

[00:21:53.09] spk_0:
if you need expertise. I mean, if you know, if you’re going to not have a search committee and may Sometimes people can hire a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But I think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that’s happened things, so

[00:22:11.40] spk_5:
you could

[00:22:11.84] spk_0:
build it up. Great.

[00:22:15.91] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is gonna be maintained, right?

[00:22:41.07] spk_0:
You want a crucial because I make it clear to all my such amazing you could be you could be sued for. Ah, um we could be potentially have a liability for exposing that there is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way, you know donating. Is it been interviewing for me and and before you know it, Tony’s employer finds out, you know, feels like this is loyal to the prom, so you have to protect confidential. It’s something that I have to establish the trust of my chance coming in. They’re out. They’re they’re adamant, and it’s just it goes with the same goes with the business. I have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a

[00:23:07.71] spk_3:
job. And this goes partly to, ah, the time commitment. You know, if if there isn’t a ah ah, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is gonna have to be after hours people are gonna be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six PM

[00:24:12.45] spk_0:
Yeah, I had, you know, in our business is growing tremendously. What’s what’s going on. But you know, when people you know, maybe I’ll do it myself if you can. It’s up to you, but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what you want, but the outreach to potential candidates. Very time consuming. If you’re going to delegate that members of a church Dominion war So you know professionals are working or even retired. It’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people. It’s a lot of time. Of all the narrowing candidates down and doing the reference checking, it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in the process, not just putting in and out there and then, you know, interviewing kids. It’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity. That’s really important,

[00:24:17.63] spk_3:
which is when I was just gonna point out that you say something that caught my eye was very, very interesting. I hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation to our role Thio be selling the applicants on the organization Not

[00:24:30.88] spk_5:
just to be not just to be a neutral a

[00:24:33.02] spk_3:
neutral committee, but be advocates for the organ.

[00:24:52.80] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, the cannon is gonna come in, they’re gonna come in prepared, and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, Jeez, I thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best thing since sliced bread? Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need the candidate’s gonna besides what the search consultant is gonna be telling them about the organization of recruiting for as a search committee, a CZ members that you want to be portraying a very positive image. You want to be sort of extending your hand. You want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome in warm, even if you’re not gonna be selected them. And you noted on the process you want to believe with a very positive for Donna. That’s a major all the search committee as it is.

[00:25:43.32] spk_3:
All right? Yeah. Interesting. Let’s move, Thio, Resume screening. You got. You got a ton of tips you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of. But you’ve got You’ve got a lot of tips to share. Share a couple of resume screen tips Now, we’re at that stage that these things are coming in. Resume resumes a lot of resumes coming out share, share a couple of resumes, screening tips,

[00:26:33.79] spk_0:
a couple things one of things you want to look for is Clary right off the bat asses. Clary. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get a hold of you? You don’t always have to have your home address these days, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think I look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where, where’s your career bed and a couple of tips you look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly. That’s a that’s a signal potential red flag, red flag were bad thing, but it should be there. The other thing that those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences, but you never get intensive where they perform that. So two things on a resume, both for people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for a position or responding to a search from is clarity is the resume clear of what I’ve accomplished is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have. And I think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that it really

[00:26:51.37] spk_3:
yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise Children

[00:27:00.22] spk_5:
absolutely. Was a caregiver was given for power

[00:27:11.59] spk_0:
that was concerned about a gap. And I said, Just tell him you have a PhD in parenthood. I mean, should be proud to be a parent way. Don’t have parents. We don’t keep that one. So I think it’s totally appropriate. But be honest with what you don’t want to do is start to cover things up here, Um, and so the, you know, present yourself in a positive tone. But certainly be honest if you took a couple of years out or time out to raise Children and be proud of it. And you did but these skills and bring back the table, I’m educated Workforce.

[00:27:30.47] spk_5:
I think

[00:27:31.17] spk_0:
I’m playing with that.

[00:27:34.97] spk_3:
Let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off? When you see people with email addresses that are Hotmail or a ol? Does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology

[00:27:58.20] spk_0:
now. I don’t know. Not any. Tell you why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business email and the personal email. And so they don’t want ah, search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into their professional at work email

[00:27:59.17] spk_5:
like, Yeah, I get that.

[00:28:04.63] spk_0:
I’m okay with the Gmail accounts. It’s when I see you know Dennis at, you know, big love dot com. I

[00:28:11.83] spk_5:
have Is that you? I’m gonna try that one. Yeah. Okay,

[00:28:15.05] spk_3:
but wait. Yeah, And then when did the e mails that are unprofessional? Like baby cakes, you know, But

[00:28:25.47] spk_5:
I don’t want no baby cakes. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right,

[00:28:27.77] spk_0:
I think it’s a potato to protect you. You know, your privacy from work. I think that’s fun.

[00:28:47.61] spk_3:
All right, but let me ask you. But but my point was, if it’s an added, you know, sort of added date domain, like a o. L or Hotmail or yeah, you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology? Now,

[00:28:51.94] spk_0:
if you know, if you haven’t out of the email address, and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address, um, and at that, eh? Oh, well, I mean, I’m flying with that.

[00:29:05.98] spk_5:
I’m

[00:29:06.37] spk_0:
playing with that.

[00:31:31.72] spk_3:
All right? Long is not baby cakes today. Oh, well, all right, way Need to take a break, wegner. No. Cougar Mountain Cuckoo Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What that means for you is that it’s got what you need. Like fund accounting, fraud prevention, grant and donor management. Custom reporting the awesome customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page, which you will always find at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take to last chance. This is the last call for innovators with doing the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020. Got a bunch of people I could use a couple more if you or someone you know, our, um tackling a problem or just approaching whatever challenges day to day issues in a different way. Then you think your ah, your colleagues elsewhere are and you’re having some success with it. Then I’d like to talk to you because you might be right for our innovators. Siris, Are you Are you innovating? Whether it’s any the fundraising topics which are myriad or its board relationships or could be bored recruiting CEO recruiting like we’re talking about today, whatever it is. Program management. Um, if you’re doing something innovative, tell me about it. Let me know you got You’ve had some success at it and let’s talk. Let’s see if there’s a fit for our innovators. Siri’s. You can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com or used the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. That is tony Stick to. Shall we continue with Dennis Miller and recruiting your CEO? I say we shall. Dennis Miller’s with us. You know him? We’re talking about his book, A guide to recruiting your next CEO. You know, we can’t We can’t cover the whole book, so just get the thing. For goodness sake. You know it’s a dentist. See miller dot com. That’s where you’ll find dentists in this book. Just get the damn thing. It’s just that I don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right, anyway, Dennis, let’s continue our joint through Um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through Lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when I don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Um, now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things were looking for. They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability.

[00:33:40.69] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean the entity process. Once we screen people intense of un resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone in the process, and we can get a better sense of where they are. As a potential candidate, we may explain a final car weather at one. A salary package, so without can’t be wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple of two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural fit? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on 18 builders or the You know, are they collaborators of the good communicators? And then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results. And I think those two things is what kinda, you know, separates the people who get to positions of those that don’t hear. I. We advised. Certainly the search committee on you know the question should be focused on Limited tony, too. You know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal with things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game and committal results. Those are two things that are a crucial now, one of things that you may ask me. I just want answers ahead of time is we have and your listeners could get if they contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non profit search dot com, we provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. I would have told a score of 50 and whether it’s on leadership, communications street, strategic planning board relationships, etcetera. So when people actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got 48 people supposedly going in the search committee members can evaluate for people and where people come out. Usually it’s good to have with them.

[00:33:52.62] spk_3:
You have a lot of resource is at the non profit search dot com. So, uh, you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring Matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s get into some details here now. Is the whole committee meeting with every, um, every candidate? Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then I don’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets air gonna judge people differently.

[00:34:35.03] spk_0:
Yeah, well, here’s what we do. Um And, um, the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates. Now, in a case we just have here because it’s got multiple locations, there are actually eight people on a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which twice, but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meet so many candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee he’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of every every candidate to be seen by every person

[00:34:54.42] spk_3:
you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit, you know? You don’t want to be asking Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions.

[00:35:35.66] spk_0:
Yeah, you hear? You don’t want to say, You know, uh, you want you want engage him in conversation and they want engage you in conversation too. And so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current position? On your most recent position? What was the your biggest achievement? Uh, he has an issue for us. How would you deal with it? Stay away from the yes or no questions. And we have, You know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here. No question to be asking, but it’s not open it. Not not yes or no Open ended question. Engagement of conversation is the best.

[00:35:43.20] spk_3:
Okay, uh, let’s say we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s our next step in the committee?

[00:36:55.22] spk_0:
What will you want to do is you wanna have everybody son of score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring so you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is I have I have a conversation with this share of the search committee, and then, uh, I will then meet with the search committee, or one of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee, dependable of the searches and what it’s for. And then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates. There’s just one person they like and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s two final plans. They’re not sure. So there’s a process here. The pluses here is obviously to let the other candidates know that they did well and they thank you before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience that’s Maur meets the needs of my client. We hope to see him again. The future and then focus in on having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making making a final offer on an employment contract. Employment agreement

[00:37:14.41] spk_3:
right now in this scoring, Obviously, some were going to score highest in High Esten higher than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, uh, you know, even the highest scoring one or two just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like I said, every in a group of five. Somebody’s going to score the highest. But even that highest one, they just don’t feel right, you know? How do we way feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process

[00:37:36.37] spk_5:
Well expressed. Happened,

[00:39:20.56] spk_0:
uh, you know, only once in my recent experience where, um, in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and you know, as you know, the millions of millions of people that serve on non proper boards throughout this country and in other countries. In Canada, you know, our bright, committed people, they gotta see it. You gotta feel for, you know, who you think would fit in here. So usually you know the scores will help you because it gives you a feedback. But usually you get a kind of feeling who would be the best person for that If there’s a situation, Um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates, I absolutely would highly recommend that you go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. We started with believing out of pool of 18 candidates, uh, knit, knit up, down with it down to 11. That was down to five. And five people came in. And so the entire team and that team in there identified, you know, two people and, uh, lo and behold, some discussion and some some time issues, and then people not sure what decision to make. And it was some inexperience on the team making decision, and they kind of planted and they just so I’m not sure I’m ready to pull the trigger. So we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again and usually don’t get the great candidates again. And we did, and it worked out. So if for some reason you don’t feel it, I dont just say, Well, because there’s a high score because you’re gonna live with this person quite awhile. Usually does not happen. Tony.

[00:39:24.64] spk_5:
You, um

[00:39:34.96] spk_0:
you know the search for doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate. But if it’s amazing, you feel that, you know, I just don’t feel it. So this person is going to fit in here that don’t just pick someone because of scored. The scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate?

[00:39:41.30] spk_3:
Is this the stage where we should be calling references? Now we’ve We’ve narrowed it down to our top two or

[00:39:45.51] spk_5:
so.

[00:40:20.91] spk_0:
So what will a CZ We get? The final can’t wait, Do ask for reference, but here’s what we do. We don’t ask them. They tell us who they’re going to use this reference. We are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking. For example, in a CEO case, we know they can’t talk about the company we’d liketo have been talked. We’d like to talk to someone who is a board member, maybe a board member. Another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them. So, uh, we don’t always talkto the references. I had a time because if you’ve got four final candidates, we it’s not about our time. It’s that we if you’re not going to be chosen, why go through the hassle of asking people and speaking to the reference But with your Jarious final candidate, we absolutely do a thorough construct. And I have a little bit of a funny story that you’re Listen,

[00:40:45.19] spk_5:
um, you

[00:41:15.73] spk_0:
may enjoy it just kind of quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when I did my first start believing not 30 years ago, and I was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people, and it was, ah, man, a woman. And remember, the man had sort of Maur experience, But the young woman had seemed like much more potential anyway, for some reason, that the man had given me a list of 10 references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me 10 references, and I call it the 46 References. This man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru.

[00:41:22.76] spk_5:
But the time I got the

[00:41:23.74] spk_0:
78 I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time I got denying, 10 people were asking me, you know, why did you What did this guy even give me a reference?

[00:41:36.38] spk_5:
The moral stories you want to keep,

[00:42:12.63] spk_0:
you know, kind of dig in here, and it’s certainly you have a light as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we d’oh and same time protecting a confidential alley. But certainly we need to do a thorough research on them. And then, in addition to references, we obviously do a check on, um, educational credentials. And then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not do regarding the one pursue feeling criminal background check, will and credit credit risk of credit reports.

[00:42:58.13] spk_3:
It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of was 30 years ago. We didn’t have words we have. We have word. We’re gonna be using that word perfect. Where you had to write down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use, like, the last four. We’re We’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we gotta take a break. I missed our last break. You ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you to do that. They themselves are former journalists. They specialize

[00:43:04.45] spk_4:
in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a

[00:43:45.38] spk_3:
turn hyphen to dot ceo. Let’s add a little more live love. We got someone jumped in from New York, New York. Welcome. Welcome. New New York New York listener Also. Bangkok, Thailand. I’ve been there and that’s a beautiful city. Beautiful, rich history and, uh, Tijuana, Mexico. Wegner Star Days, Tijuana. Let’s go back. We’ve got butt loads. More time, as we always do for recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book, a guy to recruiting your next CEO. Let’s continue our joint. Ah, Ajanta Dennis. Okay, so we’ve checked references, references, and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours And what? They’re meeting some of the staff now, too. And maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our service is,

[00:44:01.29] spk_0:
uh, no, what? We worked a

[00:44:02.76] spk_5:
man that don’t do that made staff

[00:44:05.36] spk_0:
until they are having a pleasant

[00:44:08.26] spk_5:
way.

[00:44:29.60] spk_0:
In actuality, you don’t You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a CEO level. Uh, they have to pick the CEO. If it’s another level. Certainly, if it’s a chief operating officer of chief financial officer, it’s probably appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them, then find out who’s a better fit culture, that line.

[00:44:32.94] spk_5:
But

[00:44:34.11] spk_0:
on a CEO, though, you won’t make it clear that the board is making the decision and I would not have staff involved on interviewing until mating accepted.

[00:44:45.18] spk_3:
So who are they meeting then? In this this day when they’re going to visit the visit? The site.

[00:44:50.16] spk_0:
While so many have gone to the search committee, Obviously, there’s no one else to me except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the CEO

[00:44:58.03] spk_5:
way, our home,

[00:46:29.73] spk_0:
that once a search committee has made a decision, um, before an offer was made, it’s, uh, what the search committee wants to Dio doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wanna search? Committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board, and in many cases, and I will advise us is have that final CEO Warren. The case where there’s too close candidates committed. Meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one, that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants. Don’t waste the time of having to to feel you have to bring a 2nd 1 and you given someone hope when when they’re not probably gonna be selected But I have an interesting story, tony, that you listen, May 1. Here. Uh, about a year ago, we did a search for a CEO, and the search committee had him ranked. Wanted to have this. Ah, woman ranked one and a guy number two. And, um, I had agreed with that recommendation. Thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation. Ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate. And some things came up in discussions. And I think at the end of day, they made the right decision. So don’t forget, the board has the final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee is here to recommend candidates. But do not hire a CEO from a search committee on Lee. They must meet the entire board.

[00:46:35.38] spk_3:
Have you ever heard of co CEOs?

[00:47:32.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I have. And I I found it never. Well, a couple times, it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions so both people take on the role of co CEO. 1 may have responsibility for maybe a certain geography one than another. Ah, one’s focus more on one thing I before not the have it. I think, uh, co CEOs is like co board chairs. Um, it doesn’t make a feeling that anybody is really in charge. Um, I’m working with an organization right now out in California because we do certainly national searches as well as in Canada. And you know, there’s a transition going on and it’s the heart organization. It’s important to know who’s in charge. So if it has to happen and you’re particularly with a merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally, it sooner than later, it’s only a position. You can’t have a Coast CEO. It doesn’t work. I’ve seen co chief development offices, and it doesn’t work either. I mean, I think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion.

[00:48:18.83] spk_3:
Okay, way explored co CEOs with Jean Takagi. So if anyone wants Thio, get more on that. That was the May 19th 2017 show with Gene. Um, Okay. Um all right, we, uh it’s time to negotiate an offer we were, uh we’ve selected our top one. Um, you like guards? Guidestar. They have? I don’t know if you mentioned I know them. Guide star has a good salary guide. Comes out every year. S Oh, it’s it’s current. Um, but do you have other studies that you like?

[00:48:21.17] spk_0:
Yeah, a couple of things here. We have a good sense of what the marketplaces like. Different geography, maybe

[00:48:26.80] spk_5:
waken

[00:48:46.47] spk_0:
use guide star and I. I like your condition well, but here’s the palm and it’s not Guide says bomb. Is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest compensated employees? It’s probably two years old. Um, even if it says 2016 and you’re in 17 it may have been, you know, we were involved in June of 2015 so I don’t rely upon that Nestle as a guide for

[00:48:53.31] spk_5:
making offer. I

[00:49:23.71] spk_0:
know what the organization, um, is looking to pay. I know what What? The Sally is people that are looking, and then we I advise because I’m involved in every single. So I advise my client is what I think it’s gonna take to get the person I’ve seen clients do salary surveys using Geiser and other things that commit some other compensations. Raise. There’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that. You don’t know what the performance of the organization has been. You don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what how well they’ve done with fund raising.

[00:49:30.20] spk_5:
You

[00:49:39.63] spk_0:
know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So one of the advantages of doing what? What the rate is to attract some money, and that’s kind of what we do.

[00:49:43.61] spk_3:
Okay, let’s spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you just gotta buy the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book. But I wanna spend last couple minutes just about two minutes or so on on on boarding. This is a board responsive board responsibility.

[00:50:09.19] spk_0:
Well, that’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to CEOs, I mean, half of them have never been on border. So what? What do you mean by sort of on board a candidate? Well, are on boarding. I’m boarding. If you don’t get on board, you get hired, and then you start, and then you go, Jeez, I don’t know. This is the way. Itwas

[00:50:15.06] spk_3:
you know, you’re not supported in your new digital, John. So

[00:50:25.65] spk_0:
I know what you on boarding refers to. The idea of preparing a CEO to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components

[00:50:26.92] spk_5:
of the new

[00:51:14.06] spk_0:
role and or to the board here really, very important that be some type of on boarding process. So, as an example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about with on boarding. Here is, um let’s be clear. So both the board and the CEO and again, you could say the same thing about a CEO or CFO. What? She’s development officer. Same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly, that’s gonna come up. Don’t interview puzzle, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair I want to communicate to the CEO? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other Friday? Did they want e mails or not e mails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the CEO to accomplish in the 1st 30 days or 60 days, or maybe 180

[00:51:21.37] spk_5:
days.

[00:51:27.63] spk_0:
What the cultural issues or financial issues that the organization is facing. What senior members of the team may have some performances. The watch out for who were the key stakeholders outside the organization, like donors of volunteers that you want the seal to make sure that building wishes perhaps, maybe with a local Congress person or a member of the Senate Assembly here.

[00:51:46.27] spk_3:
Dennis Dennis. We gotta leave it there. There’s too much.

[00:51:49.16] spk_5:
All right. Thank

[00:52:08.43] spk_3:
you so much, Dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guy to recruiting your next CEO. You’ll find it at Dennis c. Miller dot com, and you’ll find him at Dennis C. Miller next week. We don’t have any show, so I’m wishing you happy. Turkey Day. Help you enjoy your Thanksgiving. I hope it’s time away from work, including email and text.

[00:52:19.61] spk_4:
If texting is part of your work,

[00:53:03.64] spk_3:
um, and time with family, family and maybe even dear friends. I hope you enjoy your Thanksgiving. We’ll be back on December 6th with Vivian Hexter on Big Impact. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers

[00:53:44.00] spk_2:
Clad Meyerhoff. Sam Leave, which is the lying producer thief shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Knew every next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% will actually be with me in two weeks for big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for November 15, 2019: Music To Major Gifts

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My Guest:

Mitchell Linker: Music To Major Gifts
No One Dreams of Being a Fundraiser.” It’s a nonprofit truism and Mitchell Linker’s book. He and his music are with me for the hour. (Originally aired 12/1/17)

 

 

 

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[00:00:14.64] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:00:22.54] spk_2:
I’m your aptly named host.

[00:00:24.08] spk_1:
Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into exile,

[00:01:20.84] spk_2:
Fauria. If I saw that you missed today’s show music to major GIF ts No one dreams of being a fundraiser. It’s a non profit truism, and it’s Mitchell Lincoln’s book. He and his music are with me for the hour. This originally aired on December 1st 2017 on Tony’s Take to I’m Looking for Innovators were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and here is music to major gif ts. What a pleasure. Welcome Mitch Linker to the studio. He is a professional fundraiser in education and author of No one Dreams of Being a Fundraiser. My unexpected journey from music to Major gif ts

[00:01:30.28] spk_1:
Welcome studio, Mitch, Thanks a lot. I’m grateful to be here. That’s a pleasure. Yes, I’m a fan of the show. Thank

[00:01:37.57] spk_2:
you. Thank you. Well, that that’s a prerequisite to being get now. It’s actually,

[00:01:39.77] spk_1:
uh, it helps. It helps. Sucking up definitely helps. Don’t Don’t suck up to them. And you look great today. Yes. Thank you. I got a lot

[00:01:46.21] spk_2:
of crushing questions for you. Don’t worry.

[00:01:47.54] spk_1:
Okay. Um, all right. So music to major gift. That was That’s Thea. That’s York. That’s your story. Yeah. Story so far at least. Okay. Oh, so there may be another career. Well, given

[00:01:59.05] spk_4:
my track record, there could be several. Yeah.

[00:02:00.90] spk_2:
Oh, I see. All right, so there may be, like, fundraiser to French

[00:02:04.57] spk_1:
teacher. Okay, I think

[00:02:05.78] spk_4:
I’m I think I found my found like Okay,

[00:02:14.48] spk_2:
cool. All right. So, music, young age. Yeah. I’m talking to a former professional musician that you

[00:02:19.33] spk_1:
professionals, a little charitable, much money song made money to defend, not a living

[00:02:22.97] spk_2:
by are barely squeaking. No credit cards were important to you.

[00:02:28.20] spk_1:
Wake up to some of that. All right, But, you know, we got to start with the early days. So the kiss concert 1979. Yeah, very important to you. And

[00:02:40.39] spk_2:
your brother. Um, you pleaded pleaded with your dad. He took you. Why? Why? What happened while I was still big to you?

[00:02:42.34] spk_1:
You know? I don’t

[00:02:43.07] spk_4:
know. It was at a time in my life there was some personal turmoil going on, you know? And so I think it became something that I could cling to some transitions going on. And what

[00:02:53.72] spk_1:
about kiss? Kiss? I was the makeup, the makeup. It’s funny, The music.

[00:02:57.71] spk_4:
Not so much. It was the makeup I just remembered. Like tracing their faces on that old tracing paper.

[00:03:01.98] spk_2:
Yes. I don’t have a trace of

[00:03:03.01] spk_1:
onion skin. Yeah, exactly. You traced over it with a pencil? Yeah. Became obsessed with them. And who’s your

[00:03:08.47] spk_2:
favorite in the band?

[00:03:13.03] spk_4:
It was Gene. Gene Simmons had to be late. Was I should say, Was it waas?

[00:03:19.80] spk_1:
I don’t have a favorite, and you know, he’s around. Back in the day,

[00:03:24.52] spk_4:
he was the guy. There was something just so you know, demonic and terrifying about you weren’t loved.

[00:03:26.62] spk_2:
You had never seen him live.

[00:03:27.81] spk_4:
Never seen them live.

[00:03:29.40] spk_2:
Dad took you And your impression. What can you remember?

[00:04:00.10] spk_4:
Well, the problem was which I talk about in the book was that I got sick. I think I was probably too young to be on the show. I was seven and I just didn’t feel well. I think the noise, the just the overall stimulation of it all. I just remember sitting there kind of crying and upset the whole time. And I remember seeing it. I remember seeing Jim Gene Simmons flying and I I have vivid memories of the experience, especially considering how long ago it was. But it wasn’t a happy memory on that. I want it getting sick and I went down health.

[00:04:00.76] spk_2:
All right, so So I mean, that’s all right. That’s not a great memory. So why, Why Continued in music or what? Well, you’re only seven, then

[00:04:12.59] spk_1:
you’re still doing your still dabbling in music a little bit at a young age. Obviously it

[00:04:17.34] spk_4:
was obviously, it’s part of sort of the tableau of how I became a musician, because I mean, and I continue to be fascinated with them for years and years, So that was sort of my gateway. Um, so

[00:04:23.95] spk_1:
yeah, it was very formidable. For whatever reason, I’m sure

[00:04:27.21] spk_4:
a lot of people have that story or some variation cause kiss spoke to young kids during that era.

[00:04:40.99] spk_2:
All right? Yeah, but you got sick, and then you’re still continue to you know, you’re well, everything is Everything is life or death. When you’re seven years old, it’s so important to you. Everything is you know, the red wagon was important, but all right, but all right,

[00:04:48.08] spk_1:
you continued on. Um, so your music career was kind of like I

[00:04:52.54] spk_2:
see, like, 3 to 1. There were three people in the dent. Yeah. Then you were down to two with the day traders.

[00:05:00.70] spk_1:
Man, you did your home Any whatsoever, the ball. I appreciate what you remembered it. I do have it written down, but I do remember I’m looking in his eyes. I’m saying, now, that was the dent and the day traders and then ends and then solo eso

[00:05:15.79] spk_2:
and the day traders was too. There was a to person to person act. All right, Um, the

[00:05:18.36] spk_1:
dent was important to Yeah. Now. All right. I just want to set the scene. Now. You grew up in you Grew up in West Hartford. No, no, I was originally New

[00:05:24.17] spk_4:
York City. When I was very young and I moved to Connecticut. My family moved to connect, okay, and I’ve

[00:05:29.64] spk_1:
been in Connecticut. Everyone’s not West Hartford,

[00:05:37.13] spk_4:
no Fairfield County, Fairfield, Fairfield. And that I’ve been in the central heart, Central Connecticut region, like West Hartford since the year 2000.

[00:05:38.26] spk_1:
Okay, now I know

[00:05:41.73] spk_2:
West Hartford. I mean, I guess as I was growing up in North Jersey, I don’t know if this is still true. Um, what started? It was very wealthy community because a lot of insurance companies were based in Hartford, right? And then a lot of senior executive lives in West Hartford, right? That was a pretty exclusive place. And in fact, I remember when I was, ah planned giving director, visiting a potential donor who was a retired insurance executive in West Hartford. And he had a huge house. I don’t know. It was hard for

[00:06:05.35] spk_1:
you when you were growing

[00:06:06.32] spk_2:
up. Was it still that way?

[00:06:07.45] spk_1:
What’s offered is

[00:06:08.00] spk_4:
a great place there. There are a lot of really great quality of life sort of suburban towns in central Connecticut, glass and very Avon and West Hartford. Certainly. Probably the top.

[00:06:16.75] spk_2:
Okay, but that’s not where you grew up

[00:06:22.02] spk_4:
in Fairfield. Careful, County. If you feel count well, fearful

[00:06:23.10] spk_2:
of the town. The town in Fairfield County knows that Southern at Southern Connecticut, near New York City, that it’s a good place for commuters to live. But there is also a town named Fairfield

[00:06:32.20] spk_1:
and felt very

[00:06:33.06] spk_4:
far like when I moved to central Connecticut. Like the only time I ever went to Central Connecticut was to go to the Hartford Civic Center to see things like kiss concerts when I lived down in Fairfield County. Okay, so it was.

[00:06:42.92] spk_1:
Even though it’s a small state,

[00:06:44.30] spk_4:
they’re two very distinct areas.

[00:06:46.11] spk_2:
All right. And

[00:06:49.40] spk_1:
you were You were a musical act in Connecticut. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you made something

[00:06:52.81] spk_2:
of a name for yourself in Connecticut.

[00:07:01.11] spk_1:
I like to think so. The hostess joking. Excuse me. Yeah. Okay. Um, starting with the dent. You and two friends? Yeah. Tell us about the dead. Yeah,

[00:07:15.92] spk_4:
Boy, man, do we go back? I were talking Jeff and I My God, we would play with tennis rockets before we could actually play instruments when we’re positive way. And then we segue way too real instruments. As we got older in high school, and and then we met Dan. So, yeah, the

[00:07:22.27] spk_1:
three of us

[00:07:25.81] spk_4:
go way, way back to, like, 15 years old. And, um And then as we got older, we got more serious and started actually writing songs and obviously playing our own instruments. And then it just became

[00:07:32.76] spk_2:
all right. You want a karaoke band

[00:07:33.98] spk_1:
now? You actually did play instruments? Yeah. We actually played instruments. And yours. Yours was originally

[00:07:39.13] spk_4:
I was a drummer. And then I was, ah, demoted to lead singer.

[00:07:44.14] spk_1:
Okay, I play piano

[00:07:45.75] spk_4:
took for writing purposes, but I’m not good at have never been proficient.

[00:07:49.18] spk_1:
Okay, That shows that such a

[00:07:50.27] spk_4:
difficult question for me to answer. I say I’m a musician. People ask what I do, and I get this 10 minute answer.

[00:08:01.54] spk_1:
Well, it just depends how detailed you want to do anything ridiculous. Well, all right. All right. That’s okay. But you played okay. All right, let’s go out. Let’s go out for

[00:08:39.24] spk_2:
our first break. Sure. Um, Well, uh, yeah, with which is me, um, speaking. And, uh and so if you stand by, um, Central Brick. Okay, it’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. Does your accountant return your calls and e mails. Do they keep to their deadlines? Do you like them? Are they nice people toe work with? Are they keeping mistakes to a minimum? If these aren’t all yeses, then maybe it’s time to look for a replacement. You know, a partner at wegner-C.P.As euh Doom. But on the show many times. Gonna be coming back early next year. You start at wegner-C.P.As dot com, check them out, and

[00:08:42.15] spk_1:
then ring him up. Give him a call,

[00:09:13.14] spk_2:
Talk to eat, See if wegner can help you wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to music to major gif ts Now back. Too much liquor and his book. Um, nobody dreams of being a fundraiser. All right, so the dent was, uh it took time. I mean, it was hard to get traction. Yeah, you didn’t have a book or you don’t have an agent, right? You were recording doing some gigs. What

[00:09:13.67] spk_1:
happened? Funny, I would

[00:09:16.33] spk_4:
recommend that everyone write a book because for me, even if very few people read it, it was like therapy. And I

[00:09:23.17] spk_1:
learned a lot

[00:09:23.69] spk_4:
about my started process. And to your question, one of the things I realize in hindsight because we struggled so much. We were so focused on this dream but had difficulty, as you say, getting traction.

[00:09:34.71] spk_1:
Part of it

[00:09:35.14] spk_4:
was in some sense, we weren’t all in, and I realized about that about myself. You know, I wasn’t the type of guy who’s gonna live in a van for six months in total squalor like I loved writing songs. I loved music

[00:09:47.45] spk_1:
and I did love traveling, but I just never was able to

[00:09:49.61] spk_4:
kind of make that full life commitment. And I

[00:09:53.22] spk_1:
only realized

[00:09:53.93] spk_4:
that in retrospect, I guess that’s sort of an aside. But

[00:09:56.87] spk_1:
that’s one of the 50

[00:09:57.91] spk_4:
things I learned about myself in the process of writing this thing. And so it’s

[00:10:01.78] spk_1:
sort of helped me realize Oh yeah,

[00:10:16.47] spk_4:
that’s that’s that’s what happened to an extent, maybe we didn’t commit as much as we should have. We committed to the writing and, like the dream was there. But as far as what you actually need to boot to d’oh, it’s so difficult and unpleasant.

[00:10:17.60] spk_2:
Yeah, maybe you over romanticized

[00:10:19.57] spk_1:
it. I

[00:10:19.83] spk_4:
think so. Yeah. Yeah. Now how

[00:10:24.34] spk_2:
do you feel about your commitment to fund raising today?

[00:10:25.38] spk_4:
0 100%. Okay? Yeah. No, I feel like this is my do over.

[00:10:29.29] spk_1:
So here. Okay, that’s what I’m trying to get it. But as you were a musician is still

[00:10:33.98] spk_2:
with the Dent. You felt like you were committed. Then Did

[00:10:36.00] spk_1:
you feel committed then, Do you think? I mean, is it possible to look back and say,

[00:10:45.20] spk_2:
You know, there were times when I just really wasn’t sure I should be doing it, but I kept kept on or did you feel like you were all in then? But now, looking back, you feel like you weren’t.

[00:10:49.04] spk_4:
That’s a great question. That’s why you’re good at this.

[00:10:51.18] spk_1:
Cool. I got scored one, Okay. Initiating host. Because I think to

[00:10:55.97] spk_4:
some degree, I probably always knew and

[00:10:58.51] spk_1:
part of

[00:11:02.32] spk_4:
it. And this is another epiphany. I kind of wondered why I think the dent we just kind of stayed with each other out of familiarity, familiarity and comfort were best friends.

[00:11:08.18] spk_1:
Maybe that

[00:11:36.58] spk_4:
wasn’t the best sort of trio. Maybe that wasn’t the best partnership for over all of us. And perhaps if I had not, I was just so so committed to these guys. Maybe if I had gone solo earlier or met someone else or one of them met someone else. Maybe I would have sort of hitch my wagon to a different thing and momentum would have occurred. There was just something about the dynamic of the three of us that, in a way held us back. And I think on some level I knew that. I really do know now in hindsight, so great, much

[00:11:44.34] spk_1:
interesting. Okay, now Ah, there’s a lot of hard

[00:11:59.82] spk_2:
work. There’s a lot of there’s some overlap between being a struggling musician band, right? And fundraising, right? You point out Rejection. Networking? Yeah. Um um And you have 1/3 1 too? Oh, well, a thick skin. I guess that’s partly right. Partly that’s affiliated with rejection. Do you feel like some of what you faced negatively with the dent And then the day traders, you know, actually helped you in fundraising?

[00:12:15.65] spk_1:
Yes. And that’s

[00:12:34.34] spk_4:
a thing. Well, I well, despite what I just said, you know, in my mind I was generally all in and it was all I thought about. And as I talk about the book constantly pounding the pavement, trying to get gigs, trying t o get a record deal. That was really that was that was the fingers. And so,

[00:12:35.59] spk_1:
you know, there was a real

[00:12:36.66] spk_4:
commitment there, and yeah, it was just constant rejection, like anyone Good thing would happen and it would be almost a surprise

[00:12:59.29] spk_1:
radio. You want us to know exactly what was wrong with you? Sure Got a judge to make it a little hasty. Take the weekend to think about it, and then let us know if you actually wanted to play next Friday. References of people who protected us. So that did

[00:13:15.96] spk_4:
inadvertently trained me. And I talk about that a lot in the book, which is how you came to the question. But, um, yeah, I was used to rejection. I was used to things being difficult, used to the struggle. And when I started to have success in something that that wasn’t music, which was the fundraising, it

[00:13:18.22] spk_1:
was just

[00:13:35.37] spk_4:
amazing. It was like this incredible epiphany. And that’s the ironic thing is there were so many periods of time in the early days and music days when I thought, Am I wasting my life? Certainly people in my life probably thought I might be needing to make a pivot, but it turned out to to be great training what I encourage anyone to do. What I did is their path to fundraising. Not necessarily, but

[00:13:41.83] spk_1:
everybody’s got some path to it. And

[00:13:44.81] spk_2:
rarely, as your title suggests, Is it linear

[00:13:52.67] spk_4:
right? I don’t know that I sort of have the confidence in the fortitude and the desire that I have now if I hadn’t gone through that, so I have no regrets, though there is a period of time where it felt dark.

[00:13:59.98] spk_1:
They have a day job during the transition. 3 to 1 drink. Maybe that’s part of

[00:14:04.21] spk_4:
the commitment thing. I never just quit that job and completely did it. I was getting a little too scared. That’s probably what I mean. When I say, like, was I fully in? I think I’ve always had a little too much of a fear factor,

[00:14:33.73] spk_2:
actually, even interesting. Now, your second band, we’re not gonna really dwell on the second band. Yes, two of you, But day trader I mean, that’s not they’re not all day traders. I don’t consider being all in. It’s not like they’re invested in a Wall Street career. I mean, they’re in a stock for a couple hours, and then they’re out. So, yeah, maybe there was something pressing it about that name of nose. I don’t know what I’m saying.

[00:14:53.20] spk_1:
Yeah, it was. Now that I’m not being very impressed by perceptive, I think about this. Joe doesn’t just come together. Country popular, believe. Get email. Like, you know, this is a slapdash Oh, I love it. But I know it’s not that, you know, it’s not true. All right, So the day job was you were you were involved in nonprofits eventually

[00:14:53.91] spk_4:
landed in non profits for a while. I had a dalliance is with several different random things on, and eventually I stumbled upon non profits. I know awareness of the nonprofit sector.

[00:15:03.40] spk_2:
Alien says good work. Thank you, but I’m sure not probably radio listeners will know that we’re but it’s good work.

[00:15:16.40] spk_4:
Every now and then, I’ll pull one out. But that was probably the only time in this show. So when I first started in development, who wasn’t conscious really was more just a job,

[00:15:21.70] spk_2:
he needed a justice in their life, right? My love of

[00:15:24.72] spk_1:
exactly. Exactly. And it worked well for a

[00:15:26.43] spk_4:
while. It was very, uh,

[00:15:33.52] spk_2:
there was a time when you became a lot more intentional about a career in development. Starting to music. Music was not paying off, right? I was getting old. Yes. You’re getting older.

[00:15:39.41] spk_1:
How would you know? I think we should set the contact. How do you know

[00:15:41.45] spk_4:
I am? Wow. This is

[00:15:55.40] spk_2:
gonna come. I mean, you wrote a book about your life held 45 0 k. 45 Much anger. I get 10 years on you. All right. That’s a good thing. This is a podcast. Nobody contest that assertion that you just made. Um, you could go on the website making tony-martignetti dot com make your own decision about whether which looks younger.

[00:16:04.03] spk_1:
It was saying that I was indicative. I think people should draw that conclusion on the run.

[00:16:11.62] spk_2:
I think it is a self serving pathetic, you know, sounds presidential Almost. Okay, We don’t do politics. I’m not profit radio.

[00:16:13.84] spk_1:
So you became a little intentional? Uh, yeah. Things were not

[00:16:17.65] spk_2:
going well. Money tight music, floundering. Really? Your own gig. You’re on your solo career. You said you canceled. You cancel every gig. You’re in your music and your solo career, right? Literally canceled every gig. That

[00:16:30.29] spk_1:
Yeah. And then the whole thing

[00:16:31.61] spk_4:
is that when I think I feel like I actually started to find my voice and got better at music, I was at a point where I was too late. Like I said earlier, I was in these bands and I was felt beholden to these other people. And

[00:16:42.17] spk_1:
then when I

[00:16:42.42] spk_4:
finally went solo, I felt like I gotta groove. But at that point, I had a lot of debt. I was getting older, and and then what really happened? Was he The economy tanked out, and I don’t. So yeah, I felt so vulnerable. And I thought, Well, I’m already in development. I’m gonna make this my thing. And I just completely abandoned music at that time,

[00:16:59.99] spk_2:
Okay? Now And that you were doing database management. And then you moved into Prospect Research. Yeah, around this’ll 87 4008

[00:17:07.92] spk_1:
recession time or a little bit earlier. I was doing well.

[00:17:15.64] spk_4:
You said advancement surfaces. Then I was broadening it a little, but it was still not I was doing major gifts, you

[00:17:18.02] spk_1:
know, So but generally

[00:17:19.02] spk_4:
I was sort of the research guy

[00:17:24.60] spk_1:
back. Still back office? Yes. Something you talk about. Two bosses

[00:17:35.42] spk_2:
were discouraged. You and one who encouraged you. Um, discouraging ones. What we wantto little cautionary tale. How did they discovered you in your, uh Because you had expressed an interest to them in right of career and fundraising and furthering your working fundraising and two people discouraged you. How so?

[00:17:42.23] spk_1:
Well, I think in an

[00:17:44.94] spk_4:
in hindsight, maybe I would have discouraged me, too, because I was still kind of like a young punk. You know, I guess I still had an air of

[00:17:53.21] spk_2:
I mean, they would you respect him? You worked for them?

[00:17:54.94] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, when it was never malicious.

[00:17:56.67] spk_4:
But I think I just I didn’t look the part at the time. You know, our act, the part. Probably. I probably acted young and,

[00:18:03.45] spk_1:
you know, I was very

[00:18:20.03] spk_4:
vocal about my love of music. So I’ve sort of had me compartmentalized. I write eso then to suddenly say, I want to do this very serious, very diametric opposite you. Another good word of trick.

[00:18:20.52] spk_2:
Oh, that’s not a good word.

[00:18:21.40] spk_4:
I don’t know. Did he use it wrong?

[00:18:23.75] spk_2:
No. It depends what you mean. We’re not gonna flush it out, but I don’t think it’s good. Okay, now I’m

[00:18:30.44] spk_1:
gonna move on, okay? So that I’ll point out the vocabulary. You have got to stop myself. You really do. I’ll point out that I don’t. Who will? I’ll

[00:18:46.66] spk_2:
point out the high points, and we’ll let listeners make most of the decisions on their own. Okay. Um, So ah, so

[00:18:47.55] spk_1:
let’s talk about the guy

[00:18:48.23] spk_2:
who are the man or woman who inspired you. Somebody believed in you. Yeah. What? That person,

[00:18:53.32] spk_1:
a few people along the way just sort of

[00:19:02.99] spk_4:
recognize that I had, um ah, personality. That might be, um, suitable. Yeah. Thank you. Um,

[00:19:05.36] spk_1:
that. And I

[00:19:06.16] spk_4:
guess I I was always

[00:19:10.25] spk_1:
conducive. That was good, E. I think part of it

[00:19:18.18] spk_4:
was just I had a lot of different ages. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think I was, um, that I had an energy and a zeal, and and so, um,

[00:19:27.41] spk_1:
it’s a man or a woman. It was a few people long encouraged me, and maybe we

[00:19:49.73] spk_2:
should be seeing people beneath the surface and look at what traits they possess and how those might actually uh, transform into a fundraising career or anything in no profit so that, you know, we peel away the layer. Let’s not judge a book by the cover. And there are There are traits that people have that could be valuable to non profit.

[00:19:52.48] spk_1:
And yeah, we should try to see

[00:19:53.71] spk_2:
that if if we’re ever in this kind of situation,

[00:20:10.73] spk_4:
I agree. And I’m deeply grateful for that for that encouragement, cause at that point in my life, I hadn’t had much encouragement. You know, I’d sort of just been on my own trying this thing, and it wasn’t really working out. And then, um, it goes such a long way. And yeah, I agree that it was sort of a raw skill energy. Whatever I had that had sort of a few people had noticed. And I was grateful for that. And I would have never really come to that on my own.

[00:20:58.81] spk_2:
You say that you perceived fundraising as the guys in Glengarry Glen Ross, which happens to be a favorite movie of mine. But you know, if those who may not know it it is excellent. Um uh, Al Pacino. Ah, Walter Matthau. No, no, Jack Lemmon couple Al Pacino. Alec Baldwin. Very, very small but very pivotal role. Al Pacino. Jack Lemmon, Alan Arkin. Excellent. Ed Harris. Excellent. Kevin Spacey. Yep. Excellent. Yeah. Um okay, so these are these are shyster real estate people. We get the I didn’t get the idea for a movie that they’re spending selling marshland in Florida people. Um and that was sort of your perception of

[00:21:07.95] spk_1:
gifts, of asking people for money and, you know, part of

[00:21:24.70] spk_4:
it’s funny. I remember I went to this conference early on, and I was I was doing research at the time, and I went to this. It’s very funny nights. I went to this, um, dinner, and it was basically major gift people. I don’t even know why I went to it. Um, you may have been that it was for everybody, but was predominately major, give people and like, the volume of that room was so loud, it was just a bunch of what I perceived as extroverts. Just really sort of out there confident people,

[00:21:35.44] spk_1:
and part of

[00:21:58.67] spk_4:
it from he was a jealousy, because I had been so just estranged from that world order. I was just a very small world, and I wasn’t very confident. And then I saw these people in these personalities, and I just thought, Man, that’s what fundraising must be. You’ve got to be this big, outgoing person. I can’t do that. That’s not my personality. And I know where you’re going with this, but basically, I came to realize you don’t necessarily have to be that way. Um, but it was just It was so intimidating to me. And then when I unpeeled back what I thought a major gift officer does and what they do Dio it just seems so scary. And it just I sort of pigeonholed. You have to be a certain type of person who is outgoing and brave and frankly, all the things in many ways you do need to be. But it was so different from how I perceive myself.

[00:22:25.21] spk_2:
I don’t know how you know where I’m going, because I don’t know where I’m going.

[00:22:27.38] spk_1:
Okay, great. I’m sure I’m not sure how you’ve mastered that thing. Seems like a good place. We’re gonna play one of Mitch’s song.

[00:22:32.65] spk_4:
Oh, my gosh.

[00:22:33.27] spk_2:
Um, it’s Ah, it’s better. This is the dent. Is that this? Is

[00:22:36.44] spk_1:
this is me. So this is a solo. I’m sorry. Okay, Is the last thing I don’t know things air. You know, he’s making his transition now.

[00:22:49.39] spk_2:
Getting serious about, uh ah. Career in in fundraising. So things are looking up. It’s Ah, Mitch linker. Yeah. So low.

[00:22:52.66] spk_4:
So low.

[00:22:53.08] spk_2:
Better. Anything else you want to say to lead

[00:22:54.56] spk_1:
into it? Well, this was never

[00:22:56.88] spk_4:
never It was recorded as a demo, but it never went anywhere. I never did an album, you know. I didn’t put it on iTunes or anything that this was right at the moment that I basically stopped. So this is the first time anyone in the world

[00:23:08.73] spk_1:
All right, so it’s a podcast, so you can play it back. You’re not gonna buy it anywhere. You cannot buy it. Give me a

[00:23:14.37] spk_4:
call when you got

[00:23:15.21] spk_1:
here. It is better.

[00:24:57.94] spk_8:
Which way to go? Wait. No way.

[00:28:36.99] spk_2:
Which linker better? You heard here on non profit radio. The only place you will when you take a break. Cougar Mountain software, This s o the musical interlude into musical segue Way into the break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What does that mean for you? It’s got what you are looking for, like fund accounting. Are you using spreadsheets to manage all those restricted funds that you have? That’s that’s not that’s not great. That’s not efficient, Cooler Mountain and also has fraud protection as well as the fund accounting. They have a free 60 day trial. You’ll find that on the list of our landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s Take two. I’m still looking for innovators for our 2020 Siri’s. That might be you. Or is it someone you know who’s contrary to conventional wisdom and tradition? Are you tackling something differently and you’ve got some success to show added as well, then I’d like to talk to you because you might very well work out as a guest for the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020 And again, if it’s not you, how about a colleague? Somebody you know? Whoever it is, you can email tony at tony-martignetti dot com, or you can use the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. I’d like to talk to you, and that is tony. Take

[00:28:37.83] spk_1:
two. Let’s do the live love. Um, right here in the U. S. of a We got Tampa, Florida, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York and San Lorenzo, California Just a

[00:29:53.21] spk_2:
couple. Just a couple. That’s fine. And going abroad. Yeah. Mallika Mexico Buena Star Days, Republic of Korea and Seoul, South Korea. Get Republic of Korea is just the country. You can see the can see the city there. But that’s all right. But we do know soul is with us. So of course, on your house. Oh, I’m sorry. And also, uh, the Republic of Iran is with us. Live love to Iran Sham Do India, Bangkok, Thailand, Osaka, Japan Live love out to each of our lives listeners, whether domestic or abroad. Naturally. And the podcast Pleasantries to our over 13,000 listeners in the time shift. So glad that you were with us. Thank you for listening in whichever form live or archive. Um, let’s go back. Thio Mitch Linker and music to major gif ts. Okay, Mitch Linker, we’re back to you now. Thank you for standing by. Thank you for your minor contributions. Okay,

[00:29:54.42] spk_1:
So things are picking up and you start to self teach yourself. You, uh you got conferences? Books? You’re diving in? Yeah, self self education.

[00:30:10.51] spk_4:
Yeah, Yeah, I just immerse myself again. I completely abandoned music. Um, to this day, I haven’t, um and I just committed myself 100% thio fundraising, and yeah, I just I tried Thio Network as much as I could. And

[00:30:20.78] spk_2:
this wasn’t a cringe moment for you when I played better. Was it?

[00:30:23.80] spk_1:
Um, you’re dying inside. You’re dying inside where? It’s a little embarrassing. That’s okay. Really. No. I mean, I’m proud of you. I’m proud of it. Well, there you go. All right. No

[00:30:32.65] spk_2:
embarrassment. All right. You may feel embarrassed, but

[00:30:35.73] spk_4:
you’re gonna play the whole

[00:30:59.37] spk_1:
thing. But that sample here we were all in non profit. It was all a 100% in committed to the worst humor. But I committed to it. That’s that’s what distinguishes most people would cut their losses. Oh, no, not me. Oh, I’m in. I’ll be the joke to death till I fell. Either I get sick of it, Which that’s a very high threshold. And that’s happening right now you’re witnessing It. Says you says you you’re not one

[00:31:10.19] spk_2:
to judge. Uh, I don’t know why. I just I’m just declaring You sure you’re not. You’re not judgment worthy. All right,

[00:31:12.94] spk_1:
So you, uh you developed a cut. You Eventually, you you found a coach. You found a couple of coaches. Yeah, Mentors. This is

[00:31:20.34] spk_2:
important to you as your sort of rate moving your way into. Now you’re in major gifts and you’re blowing some things

[00:31:24.96] spk_1:
which everyone does. This is not an embarrassment. I have

[00:31:31.14] spk_2:
not as many as you, but I’ve blown things. Um, coach and mentor. Mentors. Coach is very important to you.

[00:31:34.27] spk_1:
One of

[00:32:23.47] spk_4:
the few key takeaways for anyone who’s might be interested in the book or maybe thinking about major gifts. One of them is for me was transformational. And, um, I just think everyone should probably, no matter what you’re doing in life would be great to have a coach and mentor. But for me, having that like one on one dialogue, having someone you can go to and runs situations by and sort of talk things out with someone who has experience and has been around the block and they’ve seen everything. It really changed my life because I was struggling. I again I educated myself. But when I was trying to practically apple apply what I had read or studied. I just wasn’t comfortable in this guy. And then a number of people who I met, I A long list of mentors really changed everything for me. And so again, anything in life you probably need people to look up to, but certainly with major gifts, I would definitely encourage anyone to just find someone outside of your environment outside of your job. Somebody doesn’t know the players who can objectively just sort of look at situations and talking through them.

[00:32:35.30] spk_1:
And if you are someone who’s experienced looks to take on, look, to help people, I mean, we need further the profession. Not only,

[00:32:41.78] spk_2:
you know, of course, yes, if you are new to the profession. Absolutely. Mitchell’s vice advice is very sound. But

[00:32:46.06] spk_1:
if you’re immortal, more experience. Yeah, look, to look, to help way gotta elevate the profession, whether it’s fundraising or whether it is one of the back office. Yeah, important back office functions give processing or reason process Prospect research, database management. You know, we gotta elevate you gotta elevate the profession. We all have a responsibility to bring up those of us who are, uh or newer Yeah, you know, and it’s and it’s so much fun.

[00:33:10.70] spk_4:
It’s fun. T. And I think most people want to give back and want to help. And, um, you know, the few times I’ve had the opportunity to kind of pay it forward, I found an incredibly fulfilling. So you’re right. It’s a two way street. And

[00:33:21.57] spk_2:
you tell some very good stories in the book about how just simple conversations. Get a 30 minute conversation, you know, huge sea epiphanies.

[00:33:28.11] spk_4:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:33:39.12] spk_2:
Is that a mixed metaphor? See epiphanies having epiphany? Can you see an epiphany? I don’t know. You could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Let’s stick with that. I don’t know if you see an epiphany or you just Can you stand? Can you see an epiphany? Sam doesn’t know. Yes, crystals. He’s the man surrounded by crystals, but

[00:33:44.14] spk_1:
I think it’s happened. I thought about it.

[00:33:45.73] spk_4:
I think it’s having epiphanies that you haven’t.

[00:33:48.70] spk_2:
Okay. All right,

[00:33:51.52] spk_1:
um, us. Let’s Now. You’re

[00:34:15.20] spk_2:
a bona fide major gift officer. You’re getting over the hurdles, thanks to the coaches. Mentors. Um, you’ve got some practical advice that you like around. Um, let’s start with the donor. Now you’re in a solicitation, right? Meeting don’t preemption. That was a tough one for you. One guy. One guy wrangled you twice. Meaning, Go ahead. I’ll let you explain preemption in case someone’s not aware. What are you talking

[00:34:20.25] spk_1:
about? I don’t know. I don’t pretend that might be

[00:34:21.97] spk_4:
a term that I just

[00:34:22.88] spk_1:
you know, I don’t wanna fight. You have. You know,

[00:34:31.34] spk_4:
basically, when you have a number in mind or a gift you want to talk about and then the donor, they had you off the path

[00:34:32.12] spk_1:
early in the conversation. Oh, don’t worry about Yeah, I know why you’re here. I’m gonna give the $3000 I gave you. General, you’ve got 50

[00:34:38.39] spk_2:
1000 in your mind. Exactly. They’re committed to their $3000 from last year.

[00:34:42.20] spk_1:
That’s one of

[00:34:42.79] spk_4:
100 things that air the type of scenarios that are difficult to navigate. It really only know through experience and through having

[00:34:49.62] spk_1:
the experiences you didn’t fail. You have to fail, get some help from a coach mentor and go out and do it again. Exact Gotta You gotta keep taking bites of the apple. Right? So it’s a little practical

[00:35:00.45] spk_2:
advice around preemption. What do you do? You throw out

[00:35:03.95] spk_1:
what happened. Okay, Lets a hypothetical

[00:35:13.33] spk_2:
Well, from the book you’ve got. I remember I forget what number you had in mind, but let’s stick with my hypothetical, okay? Yeah, You’ve got 50,000 Your mind In the 1st 5 minutes of conversation, you agreed. The person he says, Look, I know why you’re here. Um, I promise you, I’m going to the same 3000 I did last year. And then he pivots to a different subject. Now you’re off that you’re off the giving subject, thanks to the right, the donor and the preemption. What’s your advice?

[00:35:30.39] spk_1:
Well, you know, it depends

[00:35:31.69] spk_4:
largely on the report. If you feel a comfort, that sort of eye for my experience will dictate how far you’re gonna push. Sometimes you just gonna say thank you and move on and hope the next time you can growing more prepared.

[00:35:43.09] spk_1:
You know, I think sometimes maybe thank you, but thank you.

[00:35:45.59] spk_4:
But which is sort of what I was

[00:35:47.39] spk_1:
going to

[00:35:49.11] spk_4:
say that you know, if you have a report, there’s comfort If you just sort of very authentically and genuinely and politely say, That’s great. I appreciate that. But, you know, I’ve really been looking forward to talk with you. I have a couple ideas that I actually wanted to share with you. Would it be OK to let you know we were thinking,

[00:36:02.23] spk_1:
You know, most times people are gonna say Okay,

[00:36:11.99] spk_4:
sure. We want to hear what you had in mind. And maybe it’s tied to a naming opportunity that it’s a zoo has a certain level That sort of dictates that love. Yeah, you know, sort of those things that are our scholarship at a certain minimum. So they’re these tools to kind of help you navigate that. But

[00:36:21.41] spk_1:
really,

[00:36:27.83] spk_4:
it’s having the boldness and then the comfort Thio continue that conversation. And sometimes it goes well and, you know, it really all depends.

[00:36:31.03] spk_2:
Yeah. Okay. You talk about, um, urgency, urgency and contacts. Yeah. You like those

[00:36:35.98] spk_4:
Those? That’s what I learned from my key mentor.

[00:36:40.98] spk_1:
Okay, push it out. Yeah. You know, context is just sort of explaining. You know,

[00:36:44.54] spk_4:
you have numbers in your mind when you’re talking to a donor, Basically sort of justifying the number and explaining why someone’s gift is important. and, you know,

[00:36:52.77] spk_1:
the end of the

[00:36:57.51] spk_4:
day when you’re raising money, it always comes down to a small number of people who are really bringing in. We’re giving the past majority the money. Whether you’re talking about ah, small campaign or very, very large campaign, it always comes down to a small number of people. And by context, I like to sort of convey that to donors and sort of let them know you’re in a small group of people that were going to help bring about real change, to save and change lives. There aren’t that many people out there, you know. You are one of a few, so

[00:37:18.99] spk_1:
that’s sort of the context. There’s

[00:37:44.84] spk_2:
actually some empirical research I was just reading, like within the past two months or so. Um, a report about someone had done some experimentation around different types of materials. What one printed said, You know, all together we can prevent hunger in the community or something. And the other was, You can be a change maker. You and so is the global or their full community versus targeting the individual. And that individual marketing piece did much better,

[00:37:51.38] spk_1:
right? I’m just saying you

[00:37:53.12] spk_2:
are the change maker. You’re this. You’re the you’re the pivot. You’re the critical link in this right in this problem in our community. You the solo. Yeah,

[00:38:00.89] spk_4:
that’s great. That’s

[00:38:02.26] spk_1:
so that’s so that’s the contact, The context

[00:38:06.79] spk_4:
based just sort of really just explaining how important someone is. Thio Urgency, then the difference that they can make and why. So

[00:38:13.37] spk_1:
that’s that. That was hugely

[00:38:15.11] spk_4:
helpful me and having those giving conversations so don’t like setting the table

[00:38:22.91] spk_1:
urgency. Urgency is, um, you know,

[00:38:39.31] spk_4:
just putting parameters so that so that there’s a reason to have a conversation at a certain time. Like capital campaigns are all about urgency. Oftentimes, it’s a very arbitrary timetable, but it gives you license to talk about giving at a certain time because there’s a deadline. You know, political campaigns. It’s more finite. It really is. You know, there’s Election Day,

[00:38:44.30] spk_1:
but other campaigns,

[00:38:57.71] spk_4:
often times it’s just sort of a random period of time, but it it’s a great tool. It helps gift officers. It helps fund raisers sort of justify why you’re having a conversation at a certain period of time. So it’s an instrument to help move conversations along.

[00:39:00.72] spk_1:
How do you deal

[00:39:08.58] spk_2:
with the rejection that being rejected in music helped you? All right, helped you, Ah, achieve in fundraising. I mean, you don’t get everything that you asked for now from donors. How do you process it? What are you thinking about? Help. People who are struggling with this.

[00:39:19.19] spk_1:
Here’s

[00:39:19.64] spk_4:
how I feel about that.

[00:39:21.72] spk_1:
There are

[00:39:39.67] spk_4:
many times when I come out of the visit or situation, or maybe after a follow up, and the gift doesn’t come through. But I still feel 10 feet tall. And it’s because I feel as though I did the right thing. You know, I feel like I asked for a gift that made sense. It was well received. You know, Maybe a doctor will say That’s the right number to ask for or I appreciate you coming to me. But now is not the right time or this isn’t the right project, but it’s very amicable. And it’s not a negative experience for for anybody. Yeah, you know, there’ve been plenty of times when I didn’t get the gift, but I feel good. I feel like I was brave and I had the conversation that need to be had, and it was the right one. But for whatever reason, to just wasn’t the right timing for

[00:40:00.31] spk_1:
the donor. Yeah, for the donor. Exactly. And oftentimes

[00:40:03.83] spk_4:
no, is Just know now. Yeah. No. For

[00:40:24.41] spk_2:
06 knows you’re halfway to ah six knows you’re halfway to her. Yes, I would like to say, um, what about when you walk out? You’re not feeling so good. Like, maybe I let the institution down, right? I didn’t know there was an opening, and I didn’t seize it. You walk out regretful. How do you process that? And then, you know, carry on because a couple days later, you’re gonna have another donor meeting.

[00:40:27.31] spk_4:
I do beat myself up about it. I As I get older, I feel like I’m still the infancy of my career. I’m gonna be learning to the day I retire, which hopefully will be decades from now. Um, and I’m trying to beat myself up less about it, but basically, I just try to learn from every experience. I literally will write down how something went. What I think I could have done differently. I’ll talk to my mentors. I still have my coaches, and I just try to learn from every experience. And most importantly, I hope that the relationship is preserved. I didn’t do any damage. And generally don’t. That’s key. The

[00:40:54.42] spk_1:
relationship is over absolutely long. Can always go back. It’s a long term relationship. Yeah, it’s long term

[00:41:02.79] spk_4:
based on trust. And absolutely. And it’s about the institution. Yeah,

[00:41:36.35] spk_2:
about the institution. Excellent. Let’s take a little break. It’s time for our last break. Ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they worked to build relationships with journalists. Who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do that. Their former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage there at turn hyphen to dot ceo. We’ve got butt loads more time for music to major gif ts. All right, Mitch, I

[00:41:40.95] spk_1:
almost called you much clinker beauty that it’s been known to happen. Yeah, sorry. Okay, I admit

[00:41:45.30] spk_2:
it. I mean, I applied myself for, ah, being being honest enough to say it. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Uh, small victories. Er you’re important to me. I amuse myself. If no one else. I amuse

[00:42:07.00] spk_1:
myself and the family is all right. Well, if you’re not, I still am. So And that’s what this is. The center of the universe is me. So, um, let’s see where we are. Okay? So, uh, you’re the the institution.

[00:42:08.89] spk_2:
Yes. You’re I mean, you’re sort of keeping in mind that it’s the institution that you’re asking for. Does

[00:42:14.69] spk_1:
that help you in de personalizing this whole process?

[00:42:18.89] spk_4:
Exactly. And I was going to say that Thank you for saying that because that’s something that I’ve learned. And I talk about this in the book with music. It was personal. When I was rejected, they were saying,

[00:42:27.83] spk_1:
We don’t like your in order that you’re I don’t like your voice. Go as your art. You’re right. We’re just that your art.

[00:43:00.19] spk_4:
It’s not about me. When fund, it’s not about the solicitor. It’s about the mission of the organization. And that’s how you can remove yourself too. And you just want to do the best thing on behalf of that organization because its mission driven you’re tryingto again safe and change lives. And so, you know, I lament of something doesn’t necessarily go well because I do, to an extent, feel so I’d like the organization down and hopefully to better in the future. But it’s not about you. It’s not about being a great fundraiser or having the magic words to say, you know, your career. It’s about the lives that your impact,

[00:43:17.59] spk_2:
you do have to keep going out. You know, you’re gonna have to get over the rejection and put on a brave face for the next meeting with the next donor a couple days later and for your next meeting with that donor that you feel like you didn’t do so well with. You’ve got to keep getting out. You got it. Builds your experience

[00:43:25.38] spk_4:
Absolutely. The more you’re out there, exactly the thicker skin you’ll get and the more experiences you have. Yeah, every experience you have, it’s like, Okay, that will never happen that exact same way again because I will learn from that moment. So there’s no it’s

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
not. And this is a

[00:43:53.15] spk_4:
funny thing. I talk about the book. It’s like experience, but also being reflective and having people who are training you because I spend a lot of time out in the road and I wasn’t making progress because I was making the same mistakes again. And I didn’t have the tools to get beyond those mistakes. So it’s a combination of that experience and then really working at it. And I again I feel like I’m just starting. Um, I learned every day.

[00:44:00.55] spk_2:
How long have you been a major gift fundraiser

[00:44:03.29] spk_4:
I’ve basically been doing. I’ve been in major gifts

[00:44:06.97] spk_1:
over

[00:44:07.27] spk_4:
10 years now,

[00:44:12.56] spk_1:
but, I mean, I started in research, or I’ve been Yeah, I know, but I mean, Frontline fundraiser. Yeah, about a

[00:44:18.74] spk_4:
decade. 11 years, right? Yeah. 10 12 years. Yeah.

[00:44:19.71] spk_1:
You have a love hate relationship with travel. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:44:23.57] spk_4:
I and II romanticize it. I do enjoy travel, but it is. You

[00:44:29.01] spk_2:
romanticize it leading up

[00:44:30.07] spk_1:
to the trip. Yeah, right. It’s gonna be cool. Getaway hotel quiet.

[00:44:34.98] spk_2:
And then you’re on the trip. Not so much.

[00:44:37.02] spk_1:
Well, it’s just it’s

[00:44:52.61] spk_4:
a lot of work is a lot of work. A lot of things can go wrong, especially when you’re trying, uh, beyond dealing with the travel. Just navigating all these visits and meetings may change. It’s exhausting, but I feel like a conquering hero when I come back from a trip, you know, having been through. It’s very I think it’s a powerful experience and it’s

[00:44:55.09] spk_1:
so great

[00:45:06.25] spk_4:
when you have a trip and you get to see a lot of different people because this is a point I want to get to that. It’s the best job in the world, and one of the reasons for that is you meet so many interesting people you would never meet otherwise successful people, people who are doing great things in the world, people who’ve had extraordinary experiences, and you’re given this opportunity to talk with him. And, you know, if you go on a trip and you’re on the road for a week and you have 10 or 15 meetings, my God, what an incredible opportunity to to see the world through the eyes of these people who have done extraordinary things. It’s incredible the people I’ve met who I would never have met otherwise.

[00:46:04.94] spk_2:
You only travel tips for a long trip. Not just like a couple two or three nighter, but suppose you’re out for 10 nights. Ah, years ago, we used to have ah, what the heck to be called that Tony’s no style tips tony travel tips. Hard to believe it would be an alliteration, but Tony’s travel tips travel doesn’t fit. It’s not teacher know. So, anyway, we had started there years ago. I just used to plead with the regular contributors to give me a style tip or something. I were my formative years. Still trying master this podcasting still am, uh,

[00:46:05.39] spk_1:
travel tips for people on the road for, ah, you know, a week or more. Well, it’s funny. I actually I was gonna put this

[00:46:16.88] spk_4:
in the book, and I didn’t. So there’s, um there is more material out there. I wrote sort of things basically travel tips.

[00:46:20.78] spk_1:
All right, There’s gonna be a Volume two sequel, so I have many,

[00:46:21.83] spk_4:
many things. A lot of it is a really

[00:46:23.64] spk_1:
good one thing I’ll say for fundraising. Non

[00:46:25.80] spk_2:
non profit radio listeners

[00:46:26.68] spk_4:
always have backup meeting set because you’re gonna have cancellations, things you’re gonna move around. So that’s something I’ve learned. I would just be crestfallen when I’d have a triple set and then one by one, meetings with Lord that I find myself in a Starbucks just depressed. You know,

[00:46:39.28] spk_1:
you’re on the institutions nickel to exactly what am I doing in San Francisco? Backup trips back up visits, visits is key. What are

[00:46:53.78] spk_4:
some other good tips that I have? Do you have

[00:46:58.18] spk_1:
any, right? Well, yes. When, um you do? That’s what I like to do. Is a

[00:47:05.68] spk_2:
sort of, I guess, these air backup. Um, I’m in town. Then I call people who have always said no. You know, I don’t want you to come just to visit me. Yeah, I get that. So, actually, sometimes I would go just to visit them, and then I would build a trip around them. But

[00:47:16.66] spk_1:
I’d say, you know, I’m gonna be in town to see somebody else

[00:47:42.64] spk_2:
in a couple days or depending on the person. I’m not even spring it on them like the night before or day before because a lot of people plan giving and giving consulting, right? Mostly retired, you know? Now they do Have, you know, if you get him out of there without a doctor’s appointment 10. AM That wipes out the whole day. Sure. Now I have a doctor. Appointment 10. Now. Four o’clock. Didn’t know dinner. Now I won’t be. I’ll do that. I have a doctor appointment. 10 o’clock. I can’t make the dinner so you run that risk. But, you know, if you’re in town for another couple days, you can still say no. So people don’t like to know that you came for them. Yes, there are. There’s a cadre of people who like to visit you. We’ll take the visit yet as long as they don’t feel that you’re there. The reason you came?

[00:47:57.53] spk_4:
Yes. Absolutely. And as, uh, related to that, I’ve found that sometimes it is. Usually they’re easier to get the meeting on very short notice. You know, you plan these things far in advance, but there’s a real magic. Sometimes I think I’m gonna be around tomorrow. You know, just so happens I’m in town. Someone looks at their schedule. They have an opening. Sure. You know, it’s not something that you would. You wouldn’t plan a trip

[00:48:22.87] spk_1:
that way. He wouldn’t, but But there is. You have some Anker visits, you know, pretty solid

[00:48:24.74] spk_2:
ones. You know, we’re not gonna very unlikely to bail, and then you

[00:48:28.06] spk_1:
can build the other ones around. Yeah,

[00:48:31.60] spk_4:
and sometimes a short notice actually is convenient for Bianca and works out.

[00:48:40.44] spk_2:
Um, just remind listeners, of course, that the name of the book is no one dreams of being a fundraiser at Barnes and Noble. It’s an Amazon. Find book. Retailers near you. Well,

[00:48:45.33] spk_1:
you know, live listeners. You could check it out right now. Go to Barnes. I happen to

[00:49:11.07] spk_2:
like Barnes and Noble. Okay, um, check it out while. Well, uh, while I continue the chat with the while, we continue the chat with with Mitch channeling you, channeling you trying to think, What would you do with that person? Asked Course. I don’t know who the person is, but amusing myself. Um, opening yourself up to donors, you talk about some donors, you’ll share your music past with something long. But the

[00:49:11.78] spk_1:
personal connection means a lot, right? Yeah, it does. It does, um, to an extent, because generally my philosophy is I mean, you need that

[00:49:58.81] spk_4:
personal connection because you want trust, and you want a real genuine report. But at the end of the day, it’s about the donor. And that’s something that I’ve learned is that generally I find that if I’m talking too much on a meeting, it’s probably not going that well because they’re not opening up. I’m not learning from them. Right So it’s like you need that human connection in that, hopefully a long term relationship. But it’s it’s it’s about their experiences, as I say in the book there. Ah ha. Moments. You know how they really feel about the organization kind of getting to that understanding and then that that their emotional connection to the mission of the organization you’re representing, that’s what it’s all about. So it’s both.

[00:50:00.59] spk_2:
Yeah, I’d love to end there, but we have another minute together,

[00:50:16.05] spk_1:
okay? Something I want to say. OK, say it in a minute. In a minute. Yeah, okay, from now, four minutes for a minute. I’m just not that smart When I was going to say

[00:50:22.92] spk_4:
was getting back to it when I was saying earlier that I looked in major gift officers like they were another species of human. If

[00:50:23.12] spk_1:
there’s anyone out

[00:50:49.49] spk_4:
there who’s thinking about the fields working as a gift officer, I just I see myself in part of the reason why I wrote The book is to be a champion for the field because I think it’s the best job in the world again, as I was saying, and it’s so powerful to be able to help make a difference for a cause and to meet wonderful people. And it’s, I feel very grateful that I stumbled upon this, and even if you think you couldn’t do it, you should still try it. If there’s an

[00:50:50.96] spk_1:
inkling

[00:50:51.42] spk_4:
of the suspicion you might want to do it, give it a try. Pursuant. Dip your toe into it. Maybe ask someone you work with to take you on a visit and experiment. And you might surprise yourself because I never would have thought 1,000,000 years. I’d want to do this. Now I feel like I’ve found my calling.

[00:51:07.92] spk_2:
That’s a great place to wrap it up. Great. Thank you so much. Miss Linker, professional fundraiser in education and author of No one Dreams of Being a Fundraiser. My unexpected journey from music to major gifts. Thank you again.

[00:51:16.38] spk_4:
Thank you very much.

[00:51:18.16] spk_2:
Next week, I promise I’ll talk less if

[00:51:21.22] spk_1:
you missed any part of today’s

[00:51:22.46] spk_2:
show, I beseech you. Find it on tony-martignetti dot com were

[00:51:26.58] spk_1:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond

[00:51:29.34] spk_2:
the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But

[00:51:32.10] spk_1:
cook a mountain

[00:51:52.32] spk_2:
software. The Nolly Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. They’re your story is their mission. Turn life into dot CEO. A

[00:52:49.06] spk_1:
creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Family. Woods is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein here with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day. Do you

[00:52:49.45] spk_6:
run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, the entrepreneurial Web tune in every Friday at noon Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. Right here on Fridays at noon, talk radio dot N.Y.C.,

[00:53:18.48] spk_2:
aptly named host of tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% fundraising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget. You have a home at tony-martignetti non profit radio Fridays 1 to 2, Eastern at talking alternative dot com

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Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com

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Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s 12 noon on talk radio dot N.Y.C..

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you love, or are you intrigued about New York City and its neighborhoods? I’m Jeff Goodman, host of Rediscovering New York Weekly showed that showcases New York’s history, and it’s extraordinary neighborhoods. Every Tuesday live at 7 p.m. We focus on a particular neighborhood and explore its history. It’s vibe. It’s field and its energy tune in live every Tuesday at 7 p.m. On talk radio Die N.Y.C.

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Nonprofit Radio for November 8, 2019: Buy-In Bitches & Process Blocking Your Progress?

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My Guests:

Carie Lewis Carlson & Lara Koch: Buy-In Bitches
I gave that title to Carie Lewis Carlson and Lara Koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you; to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it—and they don’t. They’re savvy, they’re straightforward and they shared tons of strategies. They’re bitchin’. Carrie is from CLC Consulting and Lara is at Smithsonian Institutions. (Originally aired 11/9/18)

 

Stephanie Zasyatkina: Process Blocking Your Progress?
Stephanie Zasyatkina wants you to pay attention to your org’s workflow. Identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission. She’s with InReach Solutions. (Also from 11/9/18.)

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’ve come down with an applies Moses If you ticked me off with the idea that you missed today’s show buy-in bitches, I gave that title to carry Louis Carlson and Lara Koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it and they don’t They’re savvy, they’re straightforward, and they shared tons of strategies. They’re pitching carries from CLC Consulting and Lara is at Smithsonian Institution’s. This originally aired on November 9th 2018 and Process Blocking Your Progress. Stephanie xero dahna wants you to pay attention to your organization’s workflow. Identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission. She’s within reach solutions. That’s also from November 9 last year, Tony said to I’m Looking for Innovators were sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com Bye Cook a Mountain software Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m, a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here’s the buy-in bitches. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 18 NTC. It’s a non-profit technology conference coming to you from the convention center in New Orleans, Louisiana. All of our ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network For Good, Easy to use dahna Management and fund-raising software for non-profits. My guests are carry Louis Carlson Carlson. My voice cracked on knuckles. She’s the owner of CLC Consulting and Lara Koch, associate director of online fund-raising at Smithsonian Institution. Welcome, ladies. Hi, Tony. You have you both. I’m doing well. Thank you for asking. Thanks for having people Have you done your session already? Have mastered. Downside. Yes. It’s a fun from here on out. Exactly. More alcohol. Your session topic is real. Talk How? I got my leadership team toe. Listen to me, all right? Buy-in? Yes. Okay. Okay. From your session description, you had a quote. I get it. It’s my boss. That doesn’t exactly If that’s you talking, this session is for you. Okay, Larry, let’s start with you. Why do we need this topic? This cop, it came out of a 10 10 an NTC that Carrie and I were at two years ago, the one in San Jose. There was a session on the last day that turned into basically a big therapy session about the work we do and how hard it is and the things that no one really talks about. You remember our number of radio? Was that 16? I don’t unfortunately interesting that you don’t remember the topic. I don’t remember what came out of it. What the tangent was exactly that took over the over the room and there was one quote and I wish I knew who to attribute it to from that session that where someone said culture, each strategy for breakfast and and it really stuck with us. And this, uh, came out over and over about the things that we struggle with. And, you know, executive buy-in is something that comes up in almost every session you’re in, but it’s it’s a mystery. It’s feels like, Oh, just get the executive body and everything would be okay. But how? You know, how is it possible and I feel like Carrie and I are living proof that it it is possible. It’s a lot of hard work. And it’s, you know, there are strategies that we’ve both employed to make things happen. Okay, Carrie, you want to add something to the introductory remarks? Sure. Eso like Blair said, I mean, every single time we speaking unconference together how to get your boss Thio let you do the things you want to. D’oh! You’ve covered this topic multiple times. Yeah, Yeah. Even if the session doesn’t start out with that, it ends. It ends there. Yeah, yeah, and it’s and you know, most people are sitting in there. They’re listening all these great ideas. They can’t wait to go back and implement them, But they’ve got to get the OK, the budget, the time, whatever it is, and they don’t know how to do it. And so that’s why we wanted to talk about this. And like Claire said, it’s something that, um, people don’t want to talk about because it could sound like complaining or, you know, but we tried to give people actual strategies that we have used to be able to get the buy-in to do a lot of the great things we’ve been able to do together. Okay, so you ladies are the buy-in mavens. We try where buy-in buy-in matrons not think of a good alliteration to go with buy-in buy-in. Your brother’s bad. Okay? I feel like we could use the word, but I’m not sure we can say it. I love it so And 10 19 we’ll be back for the Tony. You’re setting us up. Please do it for neo-sage back. We’re coming back. I don’t regret it. Okay. Good thinking. Okay, okay. We got tactics. You got strategies we get. All right, So the problem is way feel so passionately about something, but we cannot. We just can’t convince the boss. Is that it? Is it always the sea level? Or it might even be our immediate Totally. Because, you know, they’re getting that pressure from the executives. You know, they’re the ones often in more direct contact with them. And so when you bring an idea to them, they’re thought goes there having the same thought. I’m gonna have to tell my boss how to accomplish this, how to get this done. And often, you know that immediate negativity or that immediate reactive? No. First here, and people have trouble asking for what they needed. Just it’s so hard to overcome that initial that initial. No, wait, you hardly even heard anything. I I hardly even made my case yet, and it’s already a note and then try to overcome that. It’s very, very hard and because, uh, because non-profits tend to be such a hierarchy and there’s so much emotion and passion in the work, we d’oh money. People hear that. No, and they back off, They’re done. You’re making a point. Well, I also want to say like one of the things that I was able to show is that I was able to get that full on buy-in relationship, that trust all of that with my immediate boss when I was at HSUS and he was really a on advocate and a, you know, backed me up on a lot of my ideas that were able to sell to the executives which were much harder. And I admitted this in session. I never fully got that buy-in and goal agreement and all those things with our executive suite in the 11 years I was there it was just there. There’s different priorities. Different, you know, generations. I was going to say that, but no, it’s true. I think generations, generational shifts in the workplace non-profits are so unprepared for this and and it’s and it is hurting them now because they don’t know, like, our generation doesn’t know how to relate to our C level executives who have been there for 20 years, and they have different, different way of looking at things, different priorities. And it causes this this clash. Okay, All right, let’s let’s get into some of our tactics. Great tactics, strategies. We could use those interchangeably or you. I think so, Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, let’s start the number one thing. And you know, this came up on every slide that we did was getting in being relentless about being in people’s faces and having a stick. Basically, every time you’re in a meeting, you have you repeating the same stats and you’re asking the same things over and consistency in your own messenger. Yes, exactly. I’m not giving up right when you hear. No, that was one thing I think that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. It’s like my boss says, No, I’m not gonna challenge them. Oh, but you should, because you have good ideas and you need to advocate for them. And you are the ones in the trenches. You’re the ones doing the work. You’re the ones in, you know, conferences like this you’re seeing what your what your colleagues are doing in the space. And you want to apply those things and that No, without a no but or no end. And I think that’s where you know, Carrie and I got the idea of basically going in really prepared, you know, anticipating questions and push back into anticipating the no, um, and coming up with strategies to see no say, Here’s how we’re going to do it. Here’s what we’re gonna do If we fail here, is gonna do it if we’re going to succeed. And then if you hear that, no. Is it, you know? Okay. Can I just try it once and we’ll see how it goes, you know? Can we test it because the data will out? I told the group like I love one. Tests fail. I want to be wrong because then I can let it go. I can say Okay, I thought it would work. It didn’t. I’m gonna let it go. And that’s why you know, But at least we got to try. It’s time for a break. Wedding. You’re CPS. Does your accountant return your calls and e mails? Do they keep to their deadlines? Do you like them? Are they nice people toe work with? Are they keeping mistakes to a minimum? If these aren’t all yeses, then maybe it’s time to look for a replacement. You know, a partner at Wagner cps euh doom. But on the show many times. Gonna be coming back early next year. You start at wagner cps dot com, check them out, and then ring him up. Give him a call. Talk to eat. See if Wagner can help you. Weather cps dot com Now back to buy-in bitches. And how do you feel with your respect your relationship with your boss? If you advocated for something and it failed Oh, I can talk about that. Please. Uh, this happens a lot, and it’s so important to be comfortable with then and accepting and and saying that this it’s fine that it failed, but here’s what we learned and We’ll do this differently next time. Last giving Tuesday right before I left. But I want to focus on your relationship with your boss. Right? You pushed and let’s say there was an initial. No. And then taking your advice, you challenged it. You gotta buy-in for a test. It failed, but you were the advocate for the You would advocate for the failure. Yeah. How does that how do you feel about the impingement on your relationship with your boss? How do you deal with your boss after that? That’s what I want to get. Well, it depends like that. That’s kind of where the early work of developing the relationship and the trust and all of that with your boss and your executives or whoever the decision maker is is so important. Because because I had a good relationship with my boss and I had spent years on goal agreement and trust and brainstorming and all of these these things that connected us, he is of the mind set of. Okay, well, here are all the great ideas you’ve had an executed one that didn’t work. It’s bound to happen. And I think that that over simplifies it but that that homework of developing that relationship with your boss ahead of time, Yes. And building on those small, easy wins, if that’s what you need to lay that groundwork, but and taking ownership of of, of your failures. You know, Carrie has a great example that she was gonna mention about giving Tuesday where she was convinced something is gonna work. They put into practice. It did fail, and Carrie took ownership. She said I thought this would work. It didn’t. Here’s what we learned here instead of getting defensive and you know it’s OK s O. I don’t exactly This is Yuri. This is your permission, right? I’m a gullible. Let’s leave it there. All right, All right. Move on. Yeah. So I came up with the idea of giving away little portable dog bowls. If you got your donation in ahead of time for giving Tuesday, we found from years past that that some people do want to get their gifts in early, which I find strange. But, you know, they have their reasons, and the data showed that. So I said, where were you with the duck boat? What kind of organization wear dog bowls with the Humane Society. Yeah. So, naturally, I was like this. I was really excited about it. Uh, well, they gave away maybe 100 of them. There are still 3000 of them in someone’s cubine hsus. And, um, I you know, I was like, guys. I thought this was gonna work, and it didn’t Don’t do it next year, right? And they’re not going to, but we did it. And that’s not the reason you’re no longer. I hope not. No e-giving Tuesday debacle. But I know those bulls are still sit here, and And we were, Yeah, you somehow. Yeah. Um, you know, and we were both honest in our session that, you know, we had those winds. We had those failures. But in the end, both of us did leave we both with it that the main society together, both of us did leave because in the end, you know, we made some progress, but, you know, it wasn’t enough. And those battles with our executives did wear us down eventually. And the first question that somebody asked at the end of this session was, How do you deal with all of this work and all this emotional toll that this obviously takes on someone to be constantly fighting for your ideas in your staff and all of that, Likelier said. We we both ended up leaving for this reason because you’ve got to know when you can’t do anymore, right? You know, And that’s the thing again, we’re all here for causes. We’re all here because we’re passionate people. You know, our jobs are so emotional, full of so much emotional labor, which I think makes word non-profit work really interesting. Um, and you know that you care right? And that is, you know, like I said, that’s where all of our sessions, especially when we present together, tend to end up because, you know, we’re proud of what we’ve accomplished. We’ve had some incredible winds, some incredible successes. But you know that work is constant. And because non-profit online and digital marketing and fund-raising changes every single day, it is not something like a digital direct mail where it’s pretty consistent. It’s pretty, you know, the nothing really changes their Facebook works one day based on what’s going on right now, who knows what’s gonna happen for Facebook tomorrow? Platforms to change. All right, Yeah, let’s go into more more strategies. You got you got one. Well, I touched on this, but one of the biggest kind of strategies for me was getting that visibility. I was relentless about getting into staff meetings and executive meetings and being that person that they they recognize so that when I came knocking on the door asking for something, they were like, Well, you know, Kerry has good ideas and she is smart and well respected or whatever. So that, you know, I told the audience, like If you’re one of those people that wants to work from home four days a week, you’re gonna have trouble selling your ideas because you’ve got to be around. And the executives need thio. No, you And with that comes trust and build a repertoire, and all of that’s interesting. My last conversation was about virtual employees and having a virtual organization. So you feel like in this realm, virtual employees are at a disadvantage if they are in leadership roles where they’re they’re selling ideas and managing staff and look like I flexibility. It was the number one reason why I stayed so long where I was. I’m a Mom, I I want to be able to do things on my own time. But if if I was not there pushing for what I wanted advocating for my staff, them knowing who I was because that’s how our management was. It was very management By walking around like you. You know, you have Thio be seen there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s nothing where that generational shift really comes into play, Maybe we’ll all be remote employees, you know, 15 years from now. But right now in the non-profit space, where again that hyre kiis so deeply grooved in, you know it’s being visible. And you know the point that the two women were just in the last interview majors. It really depends on organizational culture. Even that’s what this is all about. That even Trump’s age. You know, if the organization has a culture that empowers virtual employees, then then they may not have. The sheriff thinks that you’re talking about Carrie. Exactly. You’re right. It’s organizational culture. Yeah. Okay, let’s get aboard more strategies for challenging your boss. Well, you suggested Maybe it’s a no end. No, but we could test. That covers sort of the challenge of overcoming the know whether the techniques you should talk about data because you’re the data queen. Yeah. I mean, it all goes back to data, and I think a point, you know, having that data having those stats at the tip of your tongue. You know, stats that you’re repeating all the time. And, you know, getting execs love numbers very often. They don’t love the same numbers that we love. You know, they’re very focused on different numbers. So, eh, it’s focused on using numbers that mean something to them. Of course, a lot of those our budget numbers and revenue and opportunity costs. Um, Carey is done a lot of work where, you know, for redesigning the website, for example, when we were able to work with the vendor that’s redesigning that website and identify this is the money we’re leaving on the table right now. We’re having an old website, right that that those stats make sense to our executives. Even if vanity metrics, which breaks both mining carries hard, defend any social metrics. But if you can weave those in with the data that also matters is relevant Exactly, you know it is that you train them over. They will care about that spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down. You have 12,000 followers. Okay, We’ve that in exactly? Yes. Yes. You know, we, um example that leaves them, give them some of what they want. It’s like capture their attention. You know what? You’re the You’re the data expert in the organization. You know what? What? What’s Germaine? Yes. So give him a little of what they want more of what they need. And percentages? Yes, and percentage. You know, exactly. Because for example, Smithsonian redesigned their website last year and I was able to get a donation button on the website, which is a big win in the 1st 6 weeks of that donation button B On the sight, we saw 6000% increase in donations. Those numbers were super tiny, but 6000% wrenching casually to my boss in the hallway made me look like a superstar. And then they could repeat that elsewhere. But it’s it’s being, you know, unexamined. Well, one of our favorite examples was what we consider our magnum opus at the main society was our first day of giving on day of giving came as a directive and says, You know, Oh, we see university’s doing days of giving everywhere Just just do one Ah, and it has to be in restricted. We love unrestricted fund-raising. But we knew a day of giving out of nowhere in the middle of what is our biggest low month around spring March was going to be a hard sell. We knew we had a restricted program that, uh, you know, touched on all the things that that our constituents love. That hsus being pets, being people’s relationship with their pets, helping people in underserved communities get vet care for their pets. We put together a PowerPoint that laid everything out from start to finish, including a mixture of vanity metrics and actual Mex tricks and things like, Here’s what we do. If we fail, hears we do. If we succeed. We went in armed to the teeth, saying, OK, we’ll do this, but this is how we’re going to do it and we did, and we were end. Oh, and also that we need to go dark and everything else we’re doing so we can launch this huge campaign just mere months after our year and fund-raising campaign. And you know, we went in like an army, and we were able to get that message through because yes, it was the bitches and we did it. We did it and it was a huge success. But half a $1,000,000 yes, and repeating that in other ways, no through other campaigns has allowed us to just, you know, go in almost with an impenetrable armor to and confidence evidence. That’s a tough one for a lot of people. Talk about it more, I think, because people are afraid of being told no or that’s a bad idea or they’re just afraid of the rejection, kapin or failing on. And if you don’t have that culture of innovation and trust and all of that, that could be really intimidating. But I think after a while we start to gain gain our confidence. After we’ve we have good ideas and we implement them and they work and we want to do more s o that. But I think that’s a hard one for for a lot of people to have that confidence to go in and and say we’re going to do this or to your boss No, that’s a terrible idea. Which Yeah, and and I had we had 67 people come up to us after and tell their own individual stories of their immovable CEOs, you know, And And they, you know, they thanked us for ah, what we talked about. But still, you could see the fear in their eyes. You could and and that breaks my heart because again, these are people who want we’re doing mission based work. And we know how we can do it better because we’re doing it every single day. That’s the confidence you need to go in with you. You need to embrace that. Yeah. And say we were going to do this. Like when? When I decided that it was time to pick up the Web site redesigned at HSUS. I went to my boss and I said, I’m going to do this this year. I know the money’s there. We’re going to make this happen and I need an outside project manager. I didn’t go in and say had really like to redesign the website. What do you think you know? And that also helped him because it’s like I’m not going to that was another one of our tactics. Going with a solution, Not just a problem. And that takes a lot of the weight and a lot of the monkey off the off your boss is back. And that builds trust, too, because it’s like they’ve got this. You brought me a problem. Yeah. Yeah. And my boss used to always say that to me, Come to me with a solution, not a problem. And then that really also developed that that relationship of trust because he knew that I would handle things. Yeah. See Elsie working with Smithsonian. We’re not We’re just together. Not not yet. I will say yet hopefully in the future. But, you know, I would love that dynamo, but, you know, we we the bond that we formed working together, allowed us to kind of build that confidence off of one another. Um, you know, we both have different strengths. Um, and, uh, you know, we were able to move mountains at a place that is, um, like I said, it’s old school. It’s old school. No, it sounds like you suffered together that there’s this recognized social science concept. I learned it as a brotherhood of suffering, but it could equally apply as a sister of suffering. Prison isn’t. I don’t mean to analogize hsus prison, but prison is an example. We’ll take it. Okay, Um, I have something I want to chat with you. Uh huh. Because I know somebody very senior there. Um Oh, so, President, imagine what you’re suffering together. You that the common suffering day in, day out creates a bond. Sounds like that. Well, that was another one of our tactics, was yes. Was creating like a whole back-up napor greedy. Well, creating a like a mini culture within our department of trust and all of the things that we wish we had as a larger organization. You build them within the department and you do create this bond and use the work within your microcosm. Yes, and, you know, manage down, you know, manage, manage up. But also, manage down like you wish you were being managed down upon. Encourage people to come to ideas. Let them know it’s okay to fail. Let them know that you know you that, you know, they’re they’re they’re doing different work than we are as their manager. So they’re seeing things that we’re not seeing like something I tell my team now with the Smithsonian is you know, if I want you to come to me and say if you, you know, if if I didn’t if I my plate was clear, This is what I will be focusing on because I know this one. Don’t you wish one of our executives would have ever said anything like that tests? Because I I would give him Oh, I would roll out the scroll. It will roll down the hallway carpet. Exactly. And but I want to hear that because, you know, I’m spending so many plates all the time trying to, you know, be in this middle management role like I am, and I want to be able to that my team feels empowered to do that. And I think right now there are still ceilings that prevent that. Um, and the, uh you know, non-profits again? Have you know we intend to respect the CEOs as as being, you know, and that sea level, as you know, the end all be all right. And they’re not, you know, we were able to do in our world. And I say that this is especially true for non-profit marketing and fund-raising is that, um you know, it’s if you’re not living it, you’re not truly understanding it. And until executives see that and give you that leeway and you’re negotiating with them constantly about what you’re doing, what you know you can dio on Lee, Then do you even start to inch forward another thing I did while I was in a leadership role at HSUS. It sounds kind of silly, but I gave each one of my employees their birthday off, and that’s really cool. They get Thio, have an extra day off and whatnot. But what it’s really about is showing that I trust them enough to take a day off that they’re still going to get their work done. And that’s the kind of like an example of the kind of thing that was in our control. You would never get your birthday off, I think, as an overall level there, that’s just it’s It’s a culture of falik Alana non-profits work always on you to be seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But our employees knew that we trusted them enough that they could take a day off, and I was adamant. And the question that came at the end about how do you deal with all of this? The emotional labor that goes into it? It’s about creating that balance, being relentless about self care and work life balance like it is achievable. A lot of times we do it to ourselves because we care so much. But creating boundaries with your your team, your executives, is that that’s how you have to. That’s what you have to d’oh in order to keep doing off this world. Also, this idea. Please hold your don’t lose that thought. Think this idea of doing as much as you can within your within what you do have, within your purpose exactly what you can for the people. You do have authority over medicating for your staff. That’s exactly what I was going to say is. Is being relentless and going back to that repetition a badge of honor that I wear is I was in a in a meeting recently with a strategic planning meeting with a lot of different people. Of course, the organization many, many of them hyre level for me, and at one point someone stopped me and said, We know how you feel about email collection. Lara and I was like, Great, I’m glad you do. It’s because I’ve been saying it nonstop. So even if you’re annoyed with me for saying it every time you’re finally listening to me because you know what’s not happening at the Smithsonian email, let’s talk about that, you know? And luckily, I feel like Carrie and I are good with people, so we tend to not come off as harsh. Um, we tend to come off more, is just assertive versus aggressive. But, you know, I I never I’ve had to learn that assertiveness in my in my work-life because it didn’t come naturally to me. It’s something that I learned, and once I saw the progress I was able to make by getting in people’s faces, being super, you know, straight and blunt and repetitious and, you know, making that eye contact with them. Um, you know, it’s a skill that I’ve tried to learn, and I’ve tried to give to my team a CZ Well, because you know it, we’re all in these cruise ships on. We’re trying to make these turns all the time, and things move very, very very slow trying to avoid thinking. Yes, for this experiment is trying to avoid a bow shot. Okay, we’ll leave it there. You threw a terrific Great Thanks. I love your energy. I feel that I feel the bond between yes buy-in riches here. First they are Carrie Lewis Carlson, owner of CLC Consulting on Larra Koch, associate director online fund-raising at Smithsonian Institution We are non-profit rate week are non-profit radio covering 18 ntc on this interview sponsored by Network for Good. Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Ladies, Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you very much for being with our coverage. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software is designed from the bottom up. Four non-profits. Simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your accounting software? If using QuickBooks Quicken Turbo cash Workday zoho yet yet yet give it a test ride. Cougar Mountain has a 60 day free trial. You’ll find that on the listener landing page at Tony. Got em a slash Cougar mountain. Now time for Tony’s take two. Are you an innovator? Are you bucking conventional wisdom on tradition, perhaps tackling something differently? and showing success. That part’s important, the success part. If so, then let’s talk because you might be part of our innovators, Siri’s that, uh, I’m gonna be hosting in early 2020. If it’s not you, Do you know an innovator, innovative colleague friend, you or they get in touch with me? Um, use Tony at tony martignetti dot com, please. Or they can use. Or you use the contact page at tony martignetti dot com. I want to be innovators, people tackling things differently and succeeding at it. Doesn’t matter what the subject is. Program fund-raising Marketing Brand Identity Boardman Ege Mint If you’re an innovator and you’re successful, please get in touch and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for process blocking your progress. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 18 90. See the non-profit Technology Conference Coming to you from New Orleans. This interview is sponsored by Network for Good, Easy to use dahna Management and fund-raising software for non-profits. My guest is Stephanie is a Sakina. She is director of In Reach Solutions, and her workshop topic is when process blocks progress. Workflow efficiency for non-profits Stephanie. Welcome to the show Thank you, Penny. What was the need for this thing? This topic. Why do we have to talk about this wire workflows in Borden? So we are, ah, small agency for, um, case management system Bird non-profits. We work in child welfare, and what we do a lot is implement the software with the agency. Right? A lot of these agencies do they struggle with understanding what they dio. It’s like you do it on a regular basis, but you don’t know certainly know how to communicate it. So when you’re putting it into, um ah, digital format into a software, we actually have to know what you’re doing in order to get the results that you’re looking for out in reports and things like that. Okay, right. And so if they can’t communicate it clearly, it’s hard to know where their pain points are, where to help them. And some people just aren’t prepared for that, especially the small agencies. They don’t have the staff on hand that have done kind of analysis of what their current processes are, or so what way we need to help non-profits do better than what they need to better understand what their processes Are they Dio? Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Want to know how What? They’re be able to communicate where they’re at to understand where they want Todo processes their workflow there. We’re talking about the stuff they do day today. Yes. Okay. Um how do we help him do this? How do we help them? For what are we looking first for the pain points or we’re just trying to understand what the flows are first. Yet trying to understand what the flows are. The pain points often come out that absolutely in that discussion. Okay, so are we mapping the process is how do we How do we identify what are workflows are? Yes. So it would be lovely. Thio Question time, boy. Something radio Make sure. Do I understand what you’re saying? Yes. Uh, yeah, I do, do we? Is that we? Do we We mapped the workflows? Absolutely. Yeah, And a lot of that comes out through a discussion of, like, what do you do? It’s not super unconference it. Oftentimes people are so familiar with what they’re doing that when When they’re talking. When I asked questions about it, they’re actually no, I can’t describe it. they’re not actually sure. Sometimes they don’t have the right people in the room to make. They’ve not getting a full picture. And so it involves a lot of people on the team, and they’re different perspectives in order to get the full picture so that we know in the software. What are we planning to do for them? Like, you know, Do we want to automate some of the pieces? What? What are we trying to do to improve? They’re coming to us for a reason of their process. Yes, so often technology is blamed for problems when really, it’s the processes around the technology and maybe even some of the people that are the difficulties. It’s not the technology. No. Well, I mean, it might be the technology I sometimes astrology is erroneously blamed. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because they’re not really sure what the process is and where either pain points are where, maybe even where they’re successful in something. And what do they want to continue to keep when they move to the next? The next piece of software okay, Thistle relates down to efficiency, right? It’ll be more efficient, effective, right, and we don’t do that by being introspective about what, what it is we’re doing. And it’s not even that everything is completely about efficiency. Mean that it’s gonna like help with the bottom line and with staying in budget. But I think duitz does your process actually reflect Your mission is important as well. So there are definitely things where we’ve done internal processes for my organization that we’ve changed in what we’re choosing not to make videos. Let’s say to make things super efficient and not cost so much because our mission is to empower organizations and to really like, partner with them and work with them. So we’re actually work. We’d chosen to speak live, you know, with our clients, and because we feel like that’s really, really important, rather than sending them off to just support guides all the time. That makes sense, right? So it’s like you need you need both. Not only are you looking for efficiencies, which definitely is going to be a value for your organization, but does it mission this mission suddenly All right. So if we do want to identify our workflows and then pain points emerged from that what way have technology? Torto, you said. Based on discussions, how do we start to work? How do we stop the map? Are flows rate of information and work through the office. So we actually like in the workshop? What we’re gonna talk about is you have done your job. No, it’s tomorrow day. So you’re still 1 30? Still thinking about it? Yeah. Always thinking about you have already finished there. Right? Right. Right, you have? No, not yet. No, I’ve still got to get used to be good tonight. Last finales. So how do we get this started? So the way that we like to do it, we watch. There’s this really excellent Ted talks by a man named Ted. Ted, Tom would Tom Logic. And he talks about taking a really simple process so that people understand why it’s even important to due process mapping. And and, um, he does it with with toast, right? So something that we’re all fairly familiar with it. How do you make toast taking that? And so that’s what within the workshop we’re going to do is diagramming toast to get people all on the same page. We understand that were regularly building process, and then um It’s interesting, cause then every every piece of every action item that you would d’oh to move your process from Step 12 step see? Okay, you will. You can sticky note it, and when we sticky note, then we have the ability to be flexible with our process. Who’s in the room when we’re doing this? Because, listen, listeners don’t have the benefit of being at your workshop. That’s why that’s why I’m here, demanding you to another 12,000 people who move, some of whom may be here. But not all of them, obviously. So they’re not going to see your toast Diet totally work, but this is something you can take okay, way have sticky notes who belongs in the room. When we start doing this, key stakeholders are in the room so it can be executive level. But I think it’s also the people who are literally doing the work. They need to be heard and understood because there may be points of process. Nobody knows that they don’t know that they’re doing some taking information from Jessica and bringing that in, but well, how do you get that information? Well, I just call her up All right, send an email and tell her that I need the info now for these three cases, right? We have. And then later today, I’ll need some or totally informal and see season. Doesn’t know that’s going on. Exactly. Know, they don’t know. We’ve had a client recently That your name is Jessica. I don’t even know. I was pulling around in a minute, okay? It was random. I don’t think you’re just Thank you. Is that we have a client that literally walks from their office paperwork over to another office. They literally walks were like this. Amazing. Or to save 500 steps every day. You have to find another way to get those steps in for your counters, whatever, but Okay. Okay. So So in the room. Yeah, if your fitness. Yeah, Um, so in the room, we have a whiteboard, and we have post it notes that we all the stakeholders and all the people are stakeholders, people doing the work. People doing the way also have senior staff. All right, and we’re taking a process. Like what? How do we define a process? So I I like to think of it in, um, sections so don’t think of it necessarily likes top to bottom. Group it into, like, parts of the process. So make it understandable and relatable really quickly so that you can start Thio drilled down more into more complex processes because a lot of times processes are nested. Right. So, um, during a licensing process, let’s say you would. Part of it is seating background checks. Part of it is getting documentation, part of it, a signing documentation. Part of it is writing a home study and then you’re gonna, like take it up to the state. Okay, there’s lots of different processes. And before we just say, OK, we do 123 That might be a good way to go about it is just ordering what you can D’oh. I like to section it so that it’s more manageable chunks that make sense. Okay, of course. And then and then put the chunks together. Yes, well, then you’ll see the whole top to bottom right? Then you will see everything together and because it becomes very overwhelming if you look at the whole process right and we work with adoption. Foster care agency licensing is one part of that process. So it’s knowing Windows licensing Come in. What happens before what happens after? But looking at one chunk at a time so that you can organized that? Okay. And then when you’ve got okay for step one of the licensing process is we send some email to a family. Um, we then can use it. Use that on a sticky note, and talk about that is like, how is that getting done? Is that sent the email or we mailing? Why would we male versus Versace sent an email. And so you start to have discussions and probably like you said, executive level may not have any idea that actually paper males actually going out and that all the packets are in different locations or the documentation that needs to go in that pack. It might be, You know, there’s things that start to come to light that aren’t necessarily known by everybody, as as the stakeholder. Everybody who should be in the room. Okay, um then after we’ve we’ve done our map of the process. What are we? Well, you said a lot of conversations going to emerge out of this just out of the mapping exercise, right? and pain points. My voice cracked. Sorry. Like I’m 14. Bank points are going to emerge, and that’s where we can maybe applies in technology. Thio make things more efficient for us. Certainly. Yeah, or at least change the Or maybe maybe the process even shouldn’t change. But we need to understand why we’re doing it this way. Is there a good reason for doing it this way? And is there a reason for not changing? That happens sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s not that everything in your process needs to change. A lot of times you got where you are because you’re processes is working. It’s just there’s some reason that drove you to be, too to need to look at your process or like, you know, here we are at this technology conference. A lot of times it is to adopt a new technology because something doesn’t quite feel right. Um yeah, white hair. I believe I can pull this thing off your clothes. I have his white hair on my sweater. I can’t get it off because it’s so close. I can see it so close by you see a double and I kept grabbing the fake one. All right, I got it. Ah, little host. Digression. Okay, so there’s more to say about this, so I know part of your presentations will be mapping toast journey, but we don’t We’re not gonna do that here. No time for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories all while building support for your work. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to dot CEO, We’ve got butt loads more time for process, blocking your progress. But we still have another, you know, 10. 50 miss together. So what are we gonna whatmore do? Small and midsize non-profits need to know about this. The workflow process, uh, so that they can scrutinized their own. I mean, it’s it’s important. No know, going into it it it could be a dip, a difficult discussion. It is always important to bring in all the players, right? And really, even though we on the radio aren’t doing that exercise, it is an excellent exercise too. Open up people’s minds to that we all understand how to diagram. Can we talk about it when we talk through the toast example? Totally. You know. No, I don’t think it has to be visual. Right. So this is we’re using this as an example of how to map your your own workflows process. Yes, exactly. And it’s and it’s ah, like and exercise. You can literally do this exercise with your team. So it feels kind of like, why would I do this? But it brings laughter. It brings cohesion. Um, and it also brings an understanding of Oh, we all see things from different perspectives. And when we actually talk about it and get it out in the open, we can see that and then improve our process. Because that might have been some of the problem is that you don’t actually know what other people are doing. A little skeptical that gonna bring all this out. Okay. All right. So go ahead. You the facilitator get us started. So the first part of the program are the exercise is going to be thio, actually. Diagram, toast. So with a piece of paper and you are going to draw an image of how toast goes from, you know, a piece of bread. Two toasts on, whatever it might be. So for me, I use the toaster. In other countries, they use a saute pan. Um, right at the end of the toast. Maybe you just want to eat it plain and dry. Maybe some people don’t. Maybe they put butter on it. Maybe they put jelly. I was I did this presentation in in California earlier. There was a gentleman from Australia. He puts Vegemite, right. It’s like what? What are the different people bringing? Some people look at these examples as, um, very people centric. Some people are very, very detailed. Some people keep it real simple. Well, I mean, included in this, you have to go to the go to the pantry or the refrigerator where you store your bread, right? You got to get you to get the substance for some people may not remember that step. And what’s interesting I actually just spoke with a client is very good that I thought that’s absolutely Yeah, I appreciate that. Okay, So, um, so I just spoke with a client who’s actually used the example in in her non-profit setting in the foster care agency she works with. And what she found was interesting is that she now knows kind of how people think, like, how they think about what they’re doing. And what do they need, Right? So she gave a really great example of one of the women needed. All of the resource is before I get started, I need to have the jelly Neto have the toast. They need to have, um, the plate. Right? Whatever reason Plan is a planner and that opened her eyes to how to better communicate with that person because not everybody comes in it that way. When I draw the toast, I get the plate in the middle. I also like we always joke about isn’t like I’m single, Mom. Some like doing the dishes when the toast is down. I’m doing something else because I’m gonna be super efficient. Okay, Okay. All right. So Okay, so there’s other value in this duitz. Yeah, in terms of understanding people’s work personalities. Exactly. All right. All right. What We teach us that little more. It totally. But I want value. Not just, you know, not just filler. So, um, what else? All right, So, you know, in terms of what else? What else have you learned from this? Well, so then Step two is to then take all of these action items, make the sticky notes right. Okay. And so the point of the sticky notes is our brains actually work better with work of almost taking notes. All of the action items, all of the action items. So refrigerator walked to the refrigerator, bring the knife out, get the jelly, get the bread pushed down the toaster, right. If you forget any of those steps, you have an opportunity to actually include them. You can also reorganize them. So if you find that it’s more efficient to get the plate and the jelly and the toaster and the bread and all of these resource is beforehand, you can move them from where I had them right in the middle, right up to the front. Which means that you might need pantry to store all these things, right? So, like, how can you make that part more efficient? Sometimes your eyes roll the back of your head. You know, you just when you’re thinking when you’re thinking, I thought you were having having a stroke? No, your eyes roll back. You know, I do a lot of weight. I don’t just recently started doing have been not crossing, but it’s like they’re rolling back like a stroke. How do you do that? I have no idea. It’s all white. Everything becomes white, There’s just eyelashes, and it’s probably can’t do it on do it consciously. But I’m thinking, Yeah, it’s going real time. I let it go. One person let go. But now you’re gonna call it out. Thanks. Probably nobody noticed. Well, everybody’s gonna know my eyes turn away Another 12,000 pod castles. They definitely did not notice. Okay. All right. So you have fun here non-profit radio because you’re not gonna have fun. Then why the hell by d’oh bother. I dragged my ass over here. That maybe I don’t. I always, you know, Thio, New Orleans, great city. OK, I know it is, but I wouldn’t have been here if it weren’t for ntcdinosaur you probably on a beach in North Carolina. Yeah, anyway, okay, that’s a host aggression again. Um all right, so what the Post it note stage every little step and then you can decide Reorder you can reorder and s o Tom says that the the ease with which we can re order it makes us more likely to improve the process, right? Are were more willing to improve. We’re willing to change things when it feels feasible and easy to do that. If we can’t If it feels like you know, um, my team member created a diagram on, um, some program, right. So it’s got the arrows like Power point or something, right? Like she did this. All this work to make this process look like that unless likely to go in terrible her work. But sticking notes are really easy. They’re real cheap. They’re very like budget friendly, obviously for organizations. And this toast exercise really again just allows you to be free flowing with it. Part three. Okay, let’s move on. A par three is then to take everybody’s individual sticky notes and put them together. So now you’re actually building cohesion. You’re hearing actually what other amglobal wants? You’re putting them up on the board, am tryingto rationalize them all into the same process. Exactly. But some people, some people have some steps and other people skip those steps in Italy, they might not plug in the toaster. Nothing’s gonna happen if you press that down, right? And so it’s like you can pull all the all the pieces. This is where where someone is walking, you know, the boulder from one organization to another. You realize that that you didn’t realize that was actually happening before you finally get to hear everybody’s voice. Okay, Is there a step for no? So that’s that’s the exercise. But then the thing is, is guest set for, I guess. Yes, Retract what I said. Yes, there is a Step four is to do this with your own processes, right? So to look at this really complex process, you need to organize it into smaller chunks that are more manageable, right? And then you can diagram it. You can sticky. Note it. You can work together and bring in where What? The program manager believes that the processes and then that people who might actually be doing that process and hearing like I brought up this home study or the licensing process. There are certainly program managers that are approving. They might initiate part of the process. They are, um, connecting that process with the case manager with social worker. All these people are coming together to make this process happen. There’s also external factors, like the state agency or the back where the background checks are being done, or the people who have to approve the home study. So there’s all these people at play, and it really helps to bring ah Fuller Circle because the program manager might only be connected with the case manager and a social worker. But these people are connected to the state agencies. And where does the family come involved? Right, So you’re pulling ever. You’re being able to see everybody. Okay, now, in your own organizations, if you’re not doing this kind of work, um, there may be processes that that you’re just not comfortable with. Maybe maybe even before the before you identify specific pain points. You just know that something is something is not right about the way we I don’t know, acknowledge and process donations and send acknowledgements. You know, there’s something that it takes us too long. It feels like it’s harder for us than it is for my friends and other organizations, so that might be a rationale for applying this process. Absolutely. That process applying this this exercise to that process. Okay, okay. And really, I mean, Tony, you can also mean we’re always doing process. So I love this book. Um, I might get the title a little bit wrong, but it’s like the life changing magic of cleaning tidying up, and she actually discusses process in our life. It’s just like spring cleaning every year. But she organizes, um, all of your items in your house into certain groups. Then she you take out what’s what’s not needed. You hold it up right? And so I talked about the mission is like holding it up to you. Don’t feel joy when I touched this item. If no, it’s gone. It’s no longer part of the process. So, like part of the process, I guess when you’re combining and you’re finding that cohesion with all your team members is going back and aligning with your mission and even even the mission or the mission of whatever project you’re working on, right? So if it is your donations and acknowledgments, you’re wanting to get those out. How? Making sure that that aligns with how you run your organization, the values of your organization, how you value your donor. Okay, Because a lot of times donors are multifaceted and how they work with your organizations. They’re not just offering funds to you like they might be boardmember sze. They might have been volunteers. Some of the agencies that we work with, they might have been families. So how are you touching all of these? These people who have multiple connections to your organization. Okay, Okay. And I like how you bring it back to mission also mean that mission. It’s sue and whatever, whatever this process is that your being interested. Really? Really. This is organizational introspection, right? I mean, that’s the way I see it. You’re you’re you’re you’re taking a deeper look at yourself as an organization. How do you work? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like I said to write. So I didn’t want to throw in that, um, that book just because it felt really good. It’s just like you would do spring cleaning annually. You’ve got You’ve got to constantly go back to this. So, um, sometimes your mission might be stale. Your, um, people aren’t feeling it. I mean, you just have a sense if you’re in the organization. So wishes it’s out of the mission is Dale. It could be there is potential for that. Right? So it may or may not. One of the things in certainly in the workshop that we’re going to talk about is actually making people also relate to the mission. So, just like the process of mapping out where your processes making it possible so that your team actually feels the mission that they relate to it. That’s not an abstract idea. If it is a top down or as you’ve added people into your organization over time, though, it could be you. Yes, you may have. Your mission may have become less relevant. Or or you may have strayed from it, diluted it or the mission itself may require evaluation. Rethinking? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, that’s a very healthy exercise. We’re gonna leave it there. Ok? All right. She is Stephanie newsjacking and she’s director of Reach Solutions. I said it right tonight. Bear close. Yes, yes. Okay. And my interview with her with Stephanie Sponsored by Network for good. Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you so much for being with non-profit radio coverage of 18 NTC next week. What business is that of yours? If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. CPS Guiding YOU beyond the numbers bruckner cps dot com But koegler mathos software Denali fundez they’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits. Tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire miree off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. 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