Nonprofit Radio for November 15, 2019: Music To Major Gifts

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My Guest:

Mitchell Linker: Music To Major Gifts
No One Dreams of Being a Fundraiser.” It’s a nonprofit truism and Mitchell Linker’s book. He and his music are with me for the hour. (Originally aired 12/1/17)

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Nonprofit Radio for November 8, 2019: Buy-In Bitches & Process Blocking Your Progress?

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My Guests:

Carie Lewis Carlson & Lara Koch: Buy-In Bitches
I gave that title to Carie Lewis Carlson and Lara Koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you; to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it—and they don’t. They’re savvy, they’re straightforward and they shared tons of strategies. They’re bitchin’. Carrie is from CLC Consulting and Lara is at Smithsonian Institutions. (Originally aired 11/9/18)

 

Stephanie Zasyatkina: Process Blocking Your Progress?
Stephanie Zasyatkina wants you to pay attention to your org’s workflow. Identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission. She’s with InReach Solutions. (Also from 11/9/18.)

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’ve come down with an applies Moses If you ticked me off with the idea that you missed today’s show buy-in bitches, I gave that title to carry Louis Carlson and Lara Koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it and they don’t They’re savvy, they’re straightforward, and they shared tons of strategies. They’re pitching carries from CLC Consulting and Lara is at Smithsonian Institution’s. This originally aired on November 9th 2018 and Process Blocking Your Progress. Stephanie xero dahna wants you to pay attention to your organization’s workflow. Identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission. She’s within reach solutions. That’s also from November 9 last year, Tony said to I’m Looking for Innovators were sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com Bye Cook a Mountain software Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m, a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here’s the buy-in bitches. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 18 NTC. It’s a non-profit technology conference coming to you from the convention center in New Orleans, Louisiana. All of our ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network For Good, Easy to use dahna Management and fund-raising software for non-profits. My guests are carry Louis Carlson Carlson. My voice cracked on knuckles. She’s the owner of CLC Consulting and Lara Koch, associate director of online fund-raising at Smithsonian Institution. Welcome, ladies. Hi, Tony. You have you both. I’m doing well. Thank you for asking. Thanks for having people Have you done your session already? Have mastered. Downside. Yes. It’s a fun from here on out. Exactly. More alcohol. Your session topic is real. Talk How? I got my leadership team toe. Listen to me, all right? Buy-in? Yes. Okay. Okay. From your session description, you had a quote. I get it. It’s my boss. That doesn’t exactly If that’s you talking, this session is for you. Okay, Larry, let’s start with you. Why do we need this topic? This cop, it came out of a 10 10 an NTC that Carrie and I were at two years ago, the one in San Jose. There was a session on the last day that turned into basically a big therapy session about the work we do and how hard it is and the things that no one really talks about. You remember our number of radio? Was that 16? I don’t unfortunately interesting that you don’t remember the topic. I don’t remember what came out of it. What the tangent was exactly that took over the over the room and there was one quote and I wish I knew who to attribute it to from that session that where someone said culture, each strategy for breakfast and and it really stuck with us. And this, uh, came out over and over about the things that we struggle with. And, you know, executive buy-in is something that comes up in almost every session you’re in, but it’s it’s a mystery. It’s feels like, Oh, just get the executive body and everything would be okay. But how? You know, how is it possible and I feel like Carrie and I are living proof that it it is possible. It’s a lot of hard work. And it’s, you know, there are strategies that we’ve both employed to make things happen. Okay, Carrie, you want to add something to the introductory remarks? Sure. Eso like Blair said, I mean, every single time we speaking unconference together how to get your boss Thio let you do the things you want to. D’oh! You’ve covered this topic multiple times. Yeah, Yeah. Even if the session doesn’t start out with that, it ends. It ends there. Yeah, yeah, and it’s and you know, most people are sitting in there. They’re listening all these great ideas. They can’t wait to go back and implement them, But they’ve got to get the OK, the budget, the time, whatever it is, and they don’t know how to do it. And so that’s why we wanted to talk about this. And like Claire said, it’s something that, um, people don’t want to talk about because it could sound like complaining or, you know, but we tried to give people actual strategies that we have used to be able to get the buy-in to do a lot of the great things we’ve been able to do together. Okay, so you ladies are the buy-in mavens. We try where buy-in buy-in matrons not think of a good alliteration to go with buy-in buy-in. Your brother’s bad. Okay? I feel like we could use the word, but I’m not sure we can say it. I love it so And 10 19 we’ll be back for the Tony. You’re setting us up. Please do it for neo-sage back. We’re coming back. I don’t regret it. Okay. Good thinking. Okay, okay. We got tactics. You got strategies we get. All right, So the problem is way feel so passionately about something, but we cannot. We just can’t convince the boss. Is that it? Is it always the sea level? Or it might even be our immediate Totally. Because, you know, they’re getting that pressure from the executives. You know, they’re the ones often in more direct contact with them. And so when you bring an idea to them, they’re thought goes there having the same thought. I’m gonna have to tell my boss how to accomplish this, how to get this done. And often, you know that immediate negativity or that immediate reactive? No. First here, and people have trouble asking for what they needed. Just it’s so hard to overcome that initial that initial. No, wait, you hardly even heard anything. I I hardly even made my case yet, and it’s already a note and then try to overcome that. It’s very, very hard and because, uh, because non-profits tend to be such a hierarchy and there’s so much emotion and passion in the work, we d’oh money. People hear that. No, and they back off, They’re done. You’re making a point. Well, I also want to say like one of the things that I was able to show is that I was able to get that full on buy-in relationship, that trust all of that with my immediate boss when I was at HSUS and he was really a on advocate and a, you know, backed me up on a lot of my ideas that were able to sell to the executives which were much harder. And I admitted this in session. I never fully got that buy-in and goal agreement and all those things with our executive suite in the 11 years I was there it was just there. There’s different priorities. Different, you know, generations. I was going to say that, but no, it’s true. I think generations, generational shifts in the workplace non-profits are so unprepared for this and and it’s and it is hurting them now because they don’t know, like, our generation doesn’t know how to relate to our C level executives who have been there for 20 years, and they have different, different way of looking at things, different priorities. And it causes this this clash. Okay, All right, let’s let’s get into some of our tactics. Great tactics, strategies. We could use those interchangeably or you. I think so, Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, let’s start the number one thing. And you know, this came up on every slide that we did was getting in being relentless about being in people’s faces and having a stick. Basically, every time you’re in a meeting, you have you repeating the same stats and you’re asking the same things over and consistency in your own messenger. Yes, exactly. I’m not giving up right when you hear. No, that was one thing I think that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. It’s like my boss says, No, I’m not gonna challenge them. Oh, but you should, because you have good ideas and you need to advocate for them. And you are the ones in the trenches. You’re the ones doing the work. You’re the ones in, you know, conferences like this you’re seeing what your what your colleagues are doing in the space. And you want to apply those things and that No, without a no but or no end. And I think that’s where you know, Carrie and I got the idea of basically going in really prepared, you know, anticipating questions and push back into anticipating the no, um, and coming up with strategies to see no say, Here’s how we’re going to do it. Here’s what we’re gonna do If we fail here, is gonna do it if we’re going to succeed. And then if you hear that, no. Is it, you know? Okay. Can I just try it once and we’ll see how it goes, you know? Can we test it because the data will out? I told the group like I love one. Tests fail. I want to be wrong because then I can let it go. I can say Okay, I thought it would work. It didn’t. I’m gonna let it go. And that’s why you know, But at least we got to try. It’s time for a break. Wedding. You’re CPS. Does your accountant return your calls and e mails? Do they keep to their deadlines? Do you like them? Are they nice people toe work with? Are they keeping mistakes to a minimum? If these aren’t all yeses, then maybe it’s time to look for a replacement. You know, a partner at Wagner cps euh doom. But on the show many times. Gonna be coming back early next year. You start at wagner cps dot com, check them out, and then ring him up. Give him a call. Talk to eat. See if Wagner can help you. Weather cps dot com Now back to buy-in bitches. And how do you feel with your respect your relationship with your boss? If you advocated for something and it failed Oh, I can talk about that. Please. Uh, this happens a lot, and it’s so important to be comfortable with then and accepting and and saying that this it’s fine that it failed, but here’s what we learned and We’ll do this differently next time. Last giving Tuesday right before I left. But I want to focus on your relationship with your boss. Right? You pushed and let’s say there was an initial. No. And then taking your advice, you challenged it. You gotta buy-in for a test. It failed, but you were the advocate for the You would advocate for the failure. Yeah. How does that how do you feel about the impingement on your relationship with your boss? How do you deal with your boss after that? That’s what I want to get. Well, it depends like that. That’s kind of where the early work of developing the relationship and the trust and all of that with your boss and your executives or whoever the decision maker is is so important. Because because I had a good relationship with my boss and I had spent years on goal agreement and trust and brainstorming and all of these these things that connected us, he is of the mind set of. Okay, well, here are all the great ideas you’ve had an executed one that didn’t work. It’s bound to happen. And I think that that over simplifies it but that that homework of developing that relationship with your boss ahead of time, Yes. And building on those small, easy wins, if that’s what you need to lay that groundwork, but and taking ownership of of, of your failures. You know, Carrie has a great example that she was gonna mention about giving Tuesday where she was convinced something is gonna work. They put into practice. It did fail, and Carrie took ownership. She said I thought this would work. It didn’t. Here’s what we learned here instead of getting defensive and you know it’s OK s O. I don’t exactly This is Yuri. This is your permission, right? I’m a gullible. Let’s leave it there. All right, All right. Move on. Yeah. So I came up with the idea of giving away little portable dog bowls. If you got your donation in ahead of time for giving Tuesday, we found from years past that that some people do want to get their gifts in early, which I find strange. But, you know, they have their reasons, and the data showed that. So I said, where were you with the duck boat? What kind of organization wear dog bowls with the Humane Society. Yeah. So, naturally, I was like this. I was really excited about it. Uh, well, they gave away maybe 100 of them. There are still 3000 of them in someone’s cubine hsus. And, um, I you know, I was like, guys. I thought this was gonna work, and it didn’t Don’t do it next year, right? And they’re not going to, but we did it. And that’s not the reason you’re no longer. I hope not. No e-giving Tuesday debacle. But I know those bulls are still sit here, and And we were, Yeah, you somehow. Yeah. Um, you know, and we were both honest in our session that, you know, we had those winds. We had those failures. But in the end, both of us did leave we both with it that the main society together, both of us did leave because in the end, you know, we made some progress, but, you know, it wasn’t enough. And those battles with our executives did wear us down eventually. And the first question that somebody asked at the end of this session was, How do you deal with all of this work and all this emotional toll that this obviously takes on someone to be constantly fighting for your ideas in your staff and all of that, Likelier said. We we both ended up leaving for this reason because you’ve got to know when you can’t do anymore, right? You know, And that’s the thing again, we’re all here for causes. We’re all here because we’re passionate people. You know, our jobs are so emotional, full of so much emotional labor, which I think makes word non-profit work really interesting. Um, and you know that you care right? And that is, you know, like I said, that’s where all of our sessions, especially when we present together, tend to end up because, you know, we’re proud of what we’ve accomplished. We’ve had some incredible winds, some incredible successes. But you know that work is constant. And because non-profit online and digital marketing and fund-raising changes every single day, it is not something like a digital direct mail where it’s pretty consistent. It’s pretty, you know, the nothing really changes their Facebook works one day based on what’s going on right now, who knows what’s gonna happen for Facebook tomorrow? Platforms to change. All right, Yeah, let’s go into more more strategies. You got you got one. Well, I touched on this, but one of the biggest kind of strategies for me was getting that visibility. I was relentless about getting into staff meetings and executive meetings and being that person that they they recognize so that when I came knocking on the door asking for something, they were like, Well, you know, Kerry has good ideas and she is smart and well respected or whatever. So that, you know, I told the audience, like If you’re one of those people that wants to work from home four days a week, you’re gonna have trouble selling your ideas because you’ve got to be around. And the executives need thio. No, you And with that comes trust and build a repertoire, and all of that’s interesting. My last conversation was about virtual employees and having a virtual organization. So you feel like in this realm, virtual employees are at a disadvantage if they are in leadership roles where they’re they’re selling ideas and managing staff and look like I flexibility. It was the number one reason why I stayed so long where I was. I’m a Mom, I I want to be able to do things on my own time. But if if I was not there pushing for what I wanted advocating for my staff, them knowing who I was because that’s how our management was. It was very management By walking around like you. You know, you have Thio be seen there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s nothing where that generational shift really comes into play, Maybe we’ll all be remote employees, you know, 15 years from now. But right now in the non-profit space, where again that hyre kiis so deeply grooved in, you know it’s being visible. And you know the point that the two women were just in the last interview majors. It really depends on organizational culture. Even that’s what this is all about. That even Trump’s age. You know, if the organization has a culture that empowers virtual employees, then then they may not have. The sheriff thinks that you’re talking about Carrie. Exactly. You’re right. It’s organizational culture. Yeah. Okay, let’s get aboard more strategies for challenging your boss. Well, you suggested Maybe it’s a no end. No, but we could test. That covers sort of the challenge of overcoming the know whether the techniques you should talk about data because you’re the data queen. Yeah. I mean, it all goes back to data, and I think a point, you know, having that data having those stats at the tip of your tongue. You know, stats that you’re repeating all the time. And, you know, getting execs love numbers very often. They don’t love the same numbers that we love. You know, they’re very focused on different numbers. So, eh, it’s focused on using numbers that mean something to them. Of course, a lot of those our budget numbers and revenue and opportunity costs. Um, Carey is done a lot of work where, you know, for redesigning the website, for example, when we were able to work with the vendor that’s redesigning that website and identify this is the money we’re leaving on the table right now. We’re having an old website, right that that those stats make sense to our executives. Even if vanity metrics, which breaks both mining carries hard, defend any social metrics. But if you can weave those in with the data that also matters is relevant Exactly, you know it is that you train them over. They will care about that spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down. You have 12,000 followers. Okay, We’ve that in exactly? Yes. Yes. You know, we, um example that leaves them, give them some of what they want. It’s like capture their attention. You know what? You’re the You’re the data expert in the organization. You know what? What? What’s Germaine? Yes. So give him a little of what they want more of what they need. And percentages? Yes, and percentage. You know, exactly. Because for example, Smithsonian redesigned their website last year and I was able to get a donation button on the website, which is a big win in the 1st 6 weeks of that donation button B On the sight, we saw 6000% increase in donations. Those numbers were super tiny, but 6000% wrenching casually to my boss in the hallway made me look like a superstar. And then they could repeat that elsewhere. But it’s it’s being, you know, unexamined. Well, one of our favorite examples was what we consider our magnum opus at the main society was our first day of giving on day of giving came as a directive and says, You know, Oh, we see university’s doing days of giving everywhere Just just do one Ah, and it has to be in restricted. We love unrestricted fund-raising. But we knew a day of giving out of nowhere in the middle of what is our biggest low month around spring March was going to be a hard sell. We knew we had a restricted program that, uh, you know, touched on all the things that that our constituents love. That hsus being pets, being people’s relationship with their pets, helping people in underserved communities get vet care for their pets. We put together a PowerPoint that laid everything out from start to finish, including a mixture of vanity metrics and actual Mex tricks and things like, Here’s what we do. If we fail, hears we do. If we succeed. We went in armed to the teeth, saying, OK, we’ll do this, but this is how we’re going to do it and we did, and we were end. Oh, and also that we need to go dark and everything else we’re doing so we can launch this huge campaign just mere months after our year and fund-raising campaign. And you know, we went in like an army, and we were able to get that message through because yes, it was the bitches and we did it. We did it and it was a huge success. But half a $1,000,000 yes, and repeating that in other ways, no through other campaigns has allowed us to just, you know, go in almost with an impenetrable armor to and confidence evidence. That’s a tough one for a lot of people. Talk about it more, I think, because people are afraid of being told no or that’s a bad idea or they’re just afraid of the rejection, kapin or failing on. And if you don’t have that culture of innovation and trust and all of that, that could be really intimidating. But I think after a while we start to gain gain our confidence. After we’ve we have good ideas and we implement them and they work and we want to do more s o that. But I think that’s a hard one for for a lot of people to have that confidence to go in and and say we’re going to do this or to your boss No, that’s a terrible idea. Which Yeah, and and I had we had 67 people come up to us after and tell their own individual stories of their immovable CEOs, you know, And And they, you know, they thanked us for ah, what we talked about. But still, you could see the fear in their eyes. You could and and that breaks my heart because again, these are people who want we’re doing mission based work. And we know how we can do it better because we’re doing it every single day. That’s the confidence you need to go in with you. You need to embrace that. Yeah. And say we were going to do this. Like when? When I decided that it was time to pick up the Web site redesigned at HSUS. I went to my boss and I said, I’m going to do this this year. I know the money’s there. We’re going to make this happen and I need an outside project manager. I didn’t go in and say had really like to redesign the website. What do you think you know? And that also helped him because it’s like I’m not going to that was another one of our tactics. Going with a solution, Not just a problem. And that takes a lot of the weight and a lot of the monkey off the off your boss is back. And that builds trust, too, because it’s like they’ve got this. You brought me a problem. Yeah. Yeah. And my boss used to always say that to me, Come to me with a solution, not a problem. And then that really also developed that that relationship of trust because he knew that I would handle things. Yeah. See Elsie working with Smithsonian. We’re not We’re just together. Not not yet. I will say yet hopefully in the future. But, you know, I would love that dynamo, but, you know, we we the bond that we formed working together, allowed us to kind of build that confidence off of one another. Um, you know, we both have different strengths. Um, and, uh, you know, we were able to move mountains at a place that is, um, like I said, it’s old school. It’s old school. No, it sounds like you suffered together that there’s this recognized social science concept. I learned it as a brotherhood of suffering, but it could equally apply as a sister of suffering. Prison isn’t. I don’t mean to analogize hsus prison, but prison is an example. We’ll take it. Okay, Um, I have something I want to chat with you. Uh huh. Because I know somebody very senior there. Um Oh, so, President, imagine what you’re suffering together. You that the common suffering day in, day out creates a bond. Sounds like that. Well, that was another one of our tactics, was yes. Was creating like a whole back-up napor greedy. Well, creating a like a mini culture within our department of trust and all of the things that we wish we had as a larger organization. You build them within the department and you do create this bond and use the work within your microcosm. Yes, and, you know, manage down, you know, manage, manage up. But also, manage down like you wish you were being managed down upon. Encourage people to come to ideas. Let them know it’s okay to fail. Let them know that you know you that, you know, they’re they’re they’re doing different work than we are as their manager. So they’re seeing things that we’re not seeing like something I tell my team now with the Smithsonian is you know, if I want you to come to me and say if you, you know, if if I didn’t if I my plate was clear, This is what I will be focusing on because I know this one. Don’t you wish one of our executives would have ever said anything like that tests? Because I I would give him Oh, I would roll out the scroll. It will roll down the hallway carpet. Exactly. And but I want to hear that because, you know, I’m spending so many plates all the time trying to, you know, be in this middle management role like I am, and I want to be able to that my team feels empowered to do that. And I think right now there are still ceilings that prevent that. Um, and the, uh you know, non-profits again? Have you know we intend to respect the CEOs as as being, you know, and that sea level, as you know, the end all be all right. And they’re not, you know, we were able to do in our world. And I say that this is especially true for non-profit marketing and fund-raising is that, um you know, it’s if you’re not living it, you’re not truly understanding it. And until executives see that and give you that leeway and you’re negotiating with them constantly about what you’re doing, what you know you can dio on Lee, Then do you even start to inch forward another thing I did while I was in a leadership role at HSUS. It sounds kind of silly, but I gave each one of my employees their birthday off, and that’s really cool. They get Thio, have an extra day off and whatnot. But what it’s really about is showing that I trust them enough to take a day off that they’re still going to get their work done. And that’s the kind of like an example of the kind of thing that was in our control. You would never get your birthday off, I think, as an overall level there, that’s just it’s It’s a culture of falik Alana non-profits work always on you to be seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But our employees knew that we trusted them enough that they could take a day off, and I was adamant. And the question that came at the end about how do you deal with all of this? The emotional labor that goes into it? It’s about creating that balance, being relentless about self care and work life balance like it is achievable. A lot of times we do it to ourselves because we care so much. But creating boundaries with your your team, your executives, is that that’s how you have to. That’s what you have to d’oh in order to keep doing off this world. Also, this idea. Please hold your don’t lose that thought. Think this idea of doing as much as you can within your within what you do have, within your purpose exactly what you can for the people. You do have authority over medicating for your staff. That’s exactly what I was going to say is. Is being relentless and going back to that repetition a badge of honor that I wear is I was in a in a meeting recently with a strategic planning meeting with a lot of different people. Of course, the organization many, many of them hyre level for me, and at one point someone stopped me and said, We know how you feel about email collection. Lara and I was like, Great, I’m glad you do. It’s because I’ve been saying it nonstop. So even if you’re annoyed with me for saying it every time you’re finally listening to me because you know what’s not happening at the Smithsonian email, let’s talk about that, you know? And luckily, I feel like Carrie and I are good with people, so we tend to not come off as harsh. Um, we tend to come off more, is just assertive versus aggressive. But, you know, I I never I’ve had to learn that assertiveness in my in my work-life because it didn’t come naturally to me. It’s something that I learned, and once I saw the progress I was able to make by getting in people’s faces, being super, you know, straight and blunt and repetitious and, you know, making that eye contact with them. Um, you know, it’s a skill that I’ve tried to learn, and I’ve tried to give to my team a CZ Well, because you know it, we’re all in these cruise ships on. We’re trying to make these turns all the time, and things move very, very very slow trying to avoid thinking. Yes, for this experiment is trying to avoid a bow shot. Okay, we’ll leave it there. You threw a terrific Great Thanks. I love your energy. I feel that I feel the bond between yes buy-in riches here. First they are Carrie Lewis Carlson, owner of CLC Consulting on Larra Koch, associate director online fund-raising at Smithsonian Institution We are non-profit rate week are non-profit radio covering 18 ntc on this interview sponsored by Network for Good. Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Ladies, Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you very much for being with our coverage. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software is designed from the bottom up. Four non-profits. Simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your accounting software? If using QuickBooks Quicken Turbo cash Workday zoho yet yet yet give it a test ride. Cougar Mountain has a 60 day free trial. You’ll find that on the listener landing page at Tony. Got em a slash Cougar mountain. Now time for Tony’s take two. Are you an innovator? Are you bucking conventional wisdom on tradition, perhaps tackling something differently? and showing success. That part’s important, the success part. If so, then let’s talk because you might be part of our innovators, Siri’s that, uh, I’m gonna be hosting in early 2020. If it’s not you, Do you know an innovator, innovative colleague friend, you or they get in touch with me? Um, use Tony at tony martignetti dot com, please. Or they can use. Or you use the contact page at tony martignetti dot com. I want to be innovators, people tackling things differently and succeeding at it. Doesn’t matter what the subject is. Program fund-raising Marketing Brand Identity Boardman Ege Mint If you’re an innovator and you’re successful, please get in touch and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for process blocking your progress. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 18 90. See the non-profit Technology Conference Coming to you from New Orleans. This interview is sponsored by Network for Good, Easy to use dahna Management and fund-raising software for non-profits. My guest is Stephanie is a Sakina. She is director of In Reach Solutions, and her workshop topic is when process blocks progress. Workflow efficiency for non-profits Stephanie. Welcome to the show Thank you, Penny. What was the need for this thing? This topic. Why do we have to talk about this wire workflows in Borden? So we are, ah, small agency for, um, case management system Bird non-profits. We work in child welfare, and what we do a lot is implement the software with the agency. Right? A lot of these agencies do they struggle with understanding what they dio. It’s like you do it on a regular basis, but you don’t know certainly know how to communicate it. So when you’re putting it into, um ah, digital format into a software, we actually have to know what you’re doing in order to get the results that you’re looking for out in reports and things like that. Okay, right. And so if they can’t communicate it clearly, it’s hard to know where their pain points are, where to help them. And some people just aren’t prepared for that, especially the small agencies. They don’t have the staff on hand that have done kind of analysis of what their current processes are, or so what way we need to help non-profits do better than what they need to better understand what their processes Are they Dio? Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Want to know how What? They’re be able to communicate where they’re at to understand where they want Todo processes their workflow there. We’re talking about the stuff they do day today. Yes. Okay. Um how do we help him do this? How do we help them? For what are we looking first for the pain points or we’re just trying to understand what the flows are first. Yet trying to understand what the flows are. The pain points often come out that absolutely in that discussion. Okay, so are we mapping the process is how do we How do we identify what are workflows are? Yes. So it would be lovely. Thio Question time, boy. Something radio Make sure. Do I understand what you’re saying? Yes. Uh, yeah, I do, do we? Is that we? Do we We mapped the workflows? Absolutely. Yeah, And a lot of that comes out through a discussion of, like, what do you do? It’s not super unconference it. Oftentimes people are so familiar with what they’re doing that when When they’re talking. When I asked questions about it, they’re actually no, I can’t describe it. they’re not actually sure. Sometimes they don’t have the right people in the room to make. They’ve not getting a full picture. And so it involves a lot of people on the team, and they’re different perspectives in order to get the full picture so that we know in the software. What are we planning to do for them? Like, you know, Do we want to automate some of the pieces? What? What are we trying to do to improve? They’re coming to us for a reason of their process. Yes, so often technology is blamed for problems when really, it’s the processes around the technology and maybe even some of the people that are the difficulties. It’s not the technology. No. Well, I mean, it might be the technology I sometimes astrology is erroneously blamed. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because they’re not really sure what the process is and where either pain points are where, maybe even where they’re successful in something. And what do they want to continue to keep when they move to the next? The next piece of software okay, Thistle relates down to efficiency, right? It’ll be more efficient, effective, right, and we don’t do that by being introspective about what, what it is we’re doing. And it’s not even that everything is completely about efficiency. Mean that it’s gonna like help with the bottom line and with staying in budget. But I think duitz does your process actually reflect Your mission is important as well. So there are definitely things where we’ve done internal processes for my organization that we’ve changed in what we’re choosing not to make videos. Let’s say to make things super efficient and not cost so much because our mission is to empower organizations and to really like, partner with them and work with them. So we’re actually work. We’d chosen to speak live, you know, with our clients, and because we feel like that’s really, really important, rather than sending them off to just support guides all the time. That makes sense, right? So it’s like you need you need both. Not only are you looking for efficiencies, which definitely is going to be a value for your organization, but does it mission this mission suddenly All right. So if we do want to identify our workflows and then pain points emerged from that what way have technology? Torto, you said. Based on discussions, how do we start to work? How do we stop the map? Are flows rate of information and work through the office. So we actually like in the workshop? What we’re gonna talk about is you have done your job. No, it’s tomorrow day. So you’re still 1 30? Still thinking about it? Yeah. Always thinking about you have already finished there. Right? Right. Right, you have? No, not yet. No, I’ve still got to get used to be good tonight. Last finales. So how do we get this started? So the way that we like to do it, we watch. There’s this really excellent Ted talks by a man named Ted. Ted, Tom would Tom Logic. And he talks about taking a really simple process so that people understand why it’s even important to due process mapping. And and, um, he does it with with toast, right? So something that we’re all fairly familiar with it. How do you make toast taking that? And so that’s what within the workshop we’re going to do is diagramming toast to get people all on the same page. We understand that were regularly building process, and then um It’s interesting, cause then every every piece of every action item that you would d’oh to move your process from Step 12 step see? Okay, you will. You can sticky note it, and when we sticky note, then we have the ability to be flexible with our process. Who’s in the room when we’re doing this? Because, listen, listeners don’t have the benefit of being at your workshop. That’s why that’s why I’m here, demanding you to another 12,000 people who move, some of whom may be here. But not all of them, obviously. So they’re not going to see your toast Diet totally work, but this is something you can take okay, way have sticky notes who belongs in the room. When we start doing this, key stakeholders are in the room so it can be executive level. But I think it’s also the people who are literally doing the work. They need to be heard and understood because there may be points of process. Nobody knows that they don’t know that they’re doing some taking information from Jessica and bringing that in, but well, how do you get that information? Well, I just call her up All right, send an email and tell her that I need the info now for these three cases, right? We have. And then later today, I’ll need some or totally informal and see season. Doesn’t know that’s going on. Exactly. Know, they don’t know. We’ve had a client recently That your name is Jessica. I don’t even know. I was pulling around in a minute, okay? It was random. I don’t think you’re just Thank you. Is that we have a client that literally walks from their office paperwork over to another office. They literally walks were like this. Amazing. Or to save 500 steps every day. You have to find another way to get those steps in for your counters, whatever, but Okay. Okay. So So in the room. Yeah, if your fitness. Yeah, Um, so in the room, we have a whiteboard, and we have post it notes that we all the stakeholders and all the people are stakeholders, people doing the work. People doing the way also have senior staff. All right, and we’re taking a process. Like what? How do we define a process? So I I like to think of it in, um, sections so don’t think of it necessarily likes top to bottom. Group it into, like, parts of the process. So make it understandable and relatable really quickly so that you can start Thio drilled down more into more complex processes because a lot of times processes are nested. Right. So, um, during a licensing process, let’s say you would. Part of it is seating background checks. Part of it is getting documentation, part of it, a signing documentation. Part of it is writing a home study and then you’re gonna, like take it up to the state. Okay, there’s lots of different processes. And before we just say, OK, we do 123 That might be a good way to go about it is just ordering what you can D’oh. I like to section it so that it’s more manageable chunks that make sense. Okay, of course. And then and then put the chunks together. Yes, well, then you’ll see the whole top to bottom right? Then you will see everything together and because it becomes very overwhelming if you look at the whole process right and we work with adoption. Foster care agency licensing is one part of that process. So it’s knowing Windows licensing Come in. What happens before what happens after? But looking at one chunk at a time so that you can organized that? Okay. And then when you’ve got okay for step one of the licensing process is we send some email to a family. Um, we then can use it. Use that on a sticky note, and talk about that is like, how is that getting done? Is that sent the email or we mailing? Why would we male versus Versace sent an email. And so you start to have discussions and probably like you said, executive level may not have any idea that actually paper males actually going out and that all the packets are in different locations or the documentation that needs to go in that pack. It might be, You know, there’s things that start to come to light that aren’t necessarily known by everybody, as as the stakeholder. Everybody who should be in the room. Okay, um then after we’ve we’ve done our map of the process. What are we? Well, you said a lot of conversations going to emerge out of this just out of the mapping exercise, right? and pain points. My voice cracked. Sorry. Like I’m 14. Bank points are going to emerge, and that’s where we can maybe applies in technology. Thio make things more efficient for us. Certainly. Yeah, or at least change the Or maybe maybe the process even shouldn’t change. But we need to understand why we’re doing it this way. Is there a good reason for doing it this way? And is there a reason for not changing? That happens sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s not that everything in your process needs to change. A lot of times you got where you are because you’re processes is working. It’s just there’s some reason that drove you to be, too to need to look at your process or like, you know, here we are at this technology conference. A lot of times it is to adopt a new technology because something doesn’t quite feel right. Um yeah, white hair. I believe I can pull this thing off your clothes. I have his white hair on my sweater. I can’t get it off because it’s so close. I can see it so close by you see a double and I kept grabbing the fake one. All right, I got it. Ah, little host. Digression. Okay, so there’s more to say about this, so I know part of your presentations will be mapping toast journey, but we don’t We’re not gonna do that here. No time for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories all while building support for your work. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to dot CEO, We’ve got butt loads more time for process, blocking your progress. But we still have another, you know, 10. 50 miss together. So what are we gonna whatmore do? Small and midsize non-profits need to know about this. The workflow process, uh, so that they can scrutinized their own. I mean, it’s it’s important. No know, going into it it it could be a dip, a difficult discussion. It is always important to bring in all the players, right? And really, even though we on the radio aren’t doing that exercise, it is an excellent exercise too. Open up people’s minds to that we all understand how to diagram. Can we talk about it when we talk through the toast example? Totally. You know. No, I don’t think it has to be visual. Right. So this is we’re using this as an example of how to map your your own workflows process. Yes, exactly. And it’s and it’s ah, like and exercise. You can literally do this exercise with your team. So it feels kind of like, why would I do this? But it brings laughter. It brings cohesion. Um, and it also brings an understanding of Oh, we all see things from different perspectives. And when we actually talk about it and get it out in the open, we can see that and then improve our process. Because that might have been some of the problem is that you don’t actually know what other people are doing. A little skeptical that gonna bring all this out. Okay. All right. So go ahead. You the facilitator get us started. So the first part of the program are the exercise is going to be thio, actually. Diagram, toast. So with a piece of paper and you are going to draw an image of how toast goes from, you know, a piece of bread. Two toasts on, whatever it might be. So for me, I use the toaster. In other countries, they use a saute pan. Um, right at the end of the toast. Maybe you just want to eat it plain and dry. Maybe some people don’t. Maybe they put butter on it. Maybe they put jelly. I was I did this presentation in in California earlier. There was a gentleman from Australia. He puts Vegemite, right. It’s like what? What are the different people bringing? Some people look at these examples as, um, very people centric. Some people are very, very detailed. Some people keep it real simple. Well, I mean, included in this, you have to go to the go to the pantry or the refrigerator where you store your bread, right? You got to get you to get the substance for some people may not remember that step. And what’s interesting I actually just spoke with a client is very good that I thought that’s absolutely Yeah, I appreciate that. Okay, So, um, so I just spoke with a client who’s actually used the example in in her non-profit setting in the foster care agency she works with. And what she found was interesting is that she now knows kind of how people think, like, how they think about what they’re doing. And what do they need, Right? So she gave a really great example of one of the women needed. All of the resource is before I get started, I need to have the jelly Neto have the toast. They need to have, um, the plate. Right? Whatever reason Plan is a planner and that opened her eyes to how to better communicate with that person because not everybody comes in it that way. When I draw the toast, I get the plate in the middle. I also like we always joke about isn’t like I’m single, Mom. Some like doing the dishes when the toast is down. I’m doing something else because I’m gonna be super efficient. Okay, Okay. All right. So Okay, so there’s other value in this duitz. Yeah, in terms of understanding people’s work personalities. Exactly. All right. All right. What We teach us that little more. It totally. But I want value. Not just, you know, not just filler. So, um, what else? All right, So, you know, in terms of what else? What else have you learned from this? Well, so then Step two is to then take all of these action items, make the sticky notes right. Okay. And so the point of the sticky notes is our brains actually work better with work of almost taking notes. All of the action items, all of the action items. So refrigerator walked to the refrigerator, bring the knife out, get the jelly, get the bread pushed down the toaster, right. If you forget any of those steps, you have an opportunity to actually include them. You can also reorganize them. So if you find that it’s more efficient to get the plate and the jelly and the toaster and the bread and all of these resource is beforehand, you can move them from where I had them right in the middle, right up to the front. Which means that you might need pantry to store all these things, right? So, like, how can you make that part more efficient? Sometimes your eyes roll the back of your head. You know, you just when you’re thinking when you’re thinking, I thought you were having having a stroke? No, your eyes roll back. You know, I do a lot of weight. I don’t just recently started doing have been not crossing, but it’s like they’re rolling back like a stroke. How do you do that? I have no idea. It’s all white. Everything becomes white, There’s just eyelashes, and it’s probably can’t do it on do it consciously. But I’m thinking, Yeah, it’s going real time. I let it go. One person let go. But now you’re gonna call it out. Thanks. Probably nobody noticed. Well, everybody’s gonna know my eyes turn away Another 12,000 pod castles. They definitely did not notice. Okay. All right. So you have fun here non-profit radio because you’re not gonna have fun. Then why the hell by d’oh bother. I dragged my ass over here. That maybe I don’t. I always, you know, Thio, New Orleans, great city. OK, I know it is, but I wouldn’t have been here if it weren’t for ntcdinosaur you probably on a beach in North Carolina. Yeah, anyway, okay, that’s a host aggression again. Um all right, so what the Post it note stage every little step and then you can decide Reorder you can reorder and s o Tom says that the the ease with which we can re order it makes us more likely to improve the process, right? Are were more willing to improve. We’re willing to change things when it feels feasible and easy to do that. If we can’t If it feels like you know, um, my team member created a diagram on, um, some program, right. So it’s got the arrows like Power point or something, right? Like she did this. All this work to make this process look like that unless likely to go in terrible her work. But sticking notes are really easy. They’re real cheap. They’re very like budget friendly, obviously for organizations. And this toast exercise really again just allows you to be free flowing with it. Part three. Okay, let’s move on. A par three is then to take everybody’s individual sticky notes and put them together. So now you’re actually building cohesion. You’re hearing actually what other amglobal wants? You’re putting them up on the board, am tryingto rationalize them all into the same process. Exactly. But some people, some people have some steps and other people skip those steps in Italy, they might not plug in the toaster. Nothing’s gonna happen if you press that down, right? And so it’s like you can pull all the all the pieces. This is where where someone is walking, you know, the boulder from one organization to another. You realize that that you didn’t realize that was actually happening before you finally get to hear everybody’s voice. Okay, Is there a step for no? So that’s that’s the exercise. But then the thing is, is guest set for, I guess. Yes, Retract what I said. Yes, there is a Step four is to do this with your own processes, right? So to look at this really complex process, you need to organize it into smaller chunks that are more manageable, right? And then you can diagram it. You can sticky. Note it. You can work together and bring in where What? The program manager believes that the processes and then that people who might actually be doing that process and hearing like I brought up this home study or the licensing process. There are certainly program managers that are approving. They might initiate part of the process. They are, um, connecting that process with the case manager with social worker. All these people are coming together to make this process happen. There’s also external factors, like the state agency or the back where the background checks are being done, or the people who have to approve the home study. So there’s all these people at play, and it really helps to bring ah Fuller Circle because the program manager might only be connected with the case manager and a social worker. But these people are connected to the state agencies. And where does the family come involved? Right, So you’re pulling ever. You’re being able to see everybody. Okay, now, in your own organizations, if you’re not doing this kind of work, um, there may be processes that that you’re just not comfortable with. Maybe maybe even before the before you identify specific pain points. You just know that something is something is not right about the way we I don’t know, acknowledge and process donations and send acknowledgements. You know, there’s something that it takes us too long. It feels like it’s harder for us than it is for my friends and other organizations, so that might be a rationale for applying this process. Absolutely. That process applying this this exercise to that process. Okay, okay. And really, I mean, Tony, you can also mean we’re always doing process. So I love this book. Um, I might get the title a little bit wrong, but it’s like the life changing magic of cleaning tidying up, and she actually discusses process in our life. It’s just like spring cleaning every year. But she organizes, um, all of your items in your house into certain groups. Then she you take out what’s what’s not needed. You hold it up right? And so I talked about the mission is like holding it up to you. Don’t feel joy when I touched this item. If no, it’s gone. It’s no longer part of the process. So, like part of the process, I guess when you’re combining and you’re finding that cohesion with all your team members is going back and aligning with your mission and even even the mission or the mission of whatever project you’re working on, right? So if it is your donations and acknowledgments, you’re wanting to get those out. How? Making sure that that aligns with how you run your organization, the values of your organization, how you value your donor. Okay, Because a lot of times donors are multifaceted and how they work with your organizations. They’re not just offering funds to you like they might be boardmember sze. They might have been volunteers. Some of the agencies that we work with, they might have been families. So how are you touching all of these? These people who have multiple connections to your organization. Okay, Okay. And I like how you bring it back to mission also mean that mission. It’s sue and whatever, whatever this process is that your being interested. Really? Really. This is organizational introspection, right? I mean, that’s the way I see it. You’re you’re you’re you’re taking a deeper look at yourself as an organization. How do you work? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like I said to write. So I didn’t want to throw in that, um, that book just because it felt really good. It’s just like you would do spring cleaning annually. You’ve got You’ve got to constantly go back to this. So, um, sometimes your mission might be stale. Your, um, people aren’t feeling it. I mean, you just have a sense if you’re in the organization. So wishes it’s out of the mission is Dale. It could be there is potential for that. Right? So it may or may not. One of the things in certainly in the workshop that we’re going to talk about is actually making people also relate to the mission. So, just like the process of mapping out where your processes making it possible so that your team actually feels the mission that they relate to it. That’s not an abstract idea. If it is a top down or as you’ve added people into your organization over time, though, it could be you. Yes, you may have. Your mission may have become less relevant. Or or you may have strayed from it, diluted it or the mission itself may require evaluation. Rethinking? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, that’s a very healthy exercise. We’re gonna leave it there. Ok? All right. She is Stephanie newsjacking and she’s director of Reach Solutions. I said it right tonight. Bear close. Yes, yes. Okay. And my interview with her with Stephanie Sponsored by Network for good. Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you so much for being with non-profit radio coverage of 18 NTC next week. What business is that of yours? If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. CPS Guiding YOU beyond the numbers bruckner cps dot com But koegler mathos software Denali fundez they’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits. Tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire miree off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. 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Nonprofit Radio for November 1, 2019: This Could Be Our Future

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Yancey Strickler: This Could Be Our Future
Yancey Strickler is co-founder of Kickstarter and he’s written a book that’s a manifesto for a more generous world. We’ll talk about his vision for the hour.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Uncle Sir Chi Assis. If you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show, this could be our future. Yancey Strickler is co founder of KICKSTARTER, and he’s written a manifesto for a more generous world. We’ll talk about it for the hour on Tony’s Take Two Looking for Innovators were sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software. The Notley fundez They’re Complete Accounting Solution Made for non-profits Tony dahna a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen too DOT CEO. I’m pleased to welcome to the show, and the show is in a different location today. Altum playing that in a second. Yancey Strickler. He’s a writer and entrepreneur, is the cofounder of Kickstarter and author of the book This Could Be Our Future, a manifesto for a more generous world. He’s been recognized as a young global leader by the World Economic Forum and one of Fast Cos most creative people. He’s spoken at Sundance TriBeCa Film Festival. Lots of other places you will know he’s at, Why Strickler and why? Strickler dot com and Nancy. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Tony. It’s a real pleasure to have you. Um, I’m I’m a little intimidated talking to somebody Wrote a manifesto. You know, you could just name your book whatever you want. Just to be clear, there wasn’t the manifesto committee that approved it. I know it. Sze very worldly. Yes, it’s very It’s very big idea. So it’s a little intimidating, but nonetheless, I mean, I had I had to swallow hard as well before bilich being willing to own manifesto being in the title of the book. But I did, Yeah, I mean, that was a That’s a terrifying thing to do, but I I lacked a better word. You know, I wasn’t sure really. What else to say It waas because it’s not a It’s not a legal case. It’s not an emotional case. It’s sort of a mix of feelings of, you know, interpretation of the world and some new ideas like that. Well, I appreciate you think that’s a difficulty with So we are on East 76th Street. It’s a Sunday afternoon, Nancy, Uh, wasn’t ableto come when we had scheduled because of illness, and I didn’t want to lose me getting him. The book is coming out in just a matter of a couple of days. Right? November 1st October 3 night. Okay, we’re just a couple days before that. Um, I didn’t want to miss the opportunity. So we’re, uh we’re at a friend’s apartment on East 76th Street on 29th floor overlooking the Hudson River. The FDR It’s the East River. Absolutely. The East River east. 76 Thank you very much. The East River FDR, Um, why would you want to see it? It’s great. It’s It’s a cloudy, overcast day, but still beautiful. Still mean. I love the beach, but I can appreciate concrete on drivers as well. All right, so because it’s a Sunday, we’re doing this unorthodox. Not your average studio experience. So it’s a Sunday so dense and I relaxing. So we’ve got some cheese, got little organic toasts, and we have a bottle of wine And while I open the bottle of sauvignon blanc, I’m gonna ask you, Yancey, tell us about your days of kick starting. The book’s not about kickstarting record spending a lot of time, but you, you, you you talk about it. You know, you talk about some fear, some self doubt, thousands of people relying on you for their projects. Employees counting on you. What were those days like? I don’t start beginning. Start in the middle, but yeah. I mean, what’s it like to do a project like, be a pioneer in something like Kickstarter? Um, you know, Kick kick Starter was in kind of an accidental journey a bit, you know, it’s like for the three of us. He started it. There wasn’t a desire to be entrepreneurial. It was just really being compelled by my co founder, Perry Chins. Brilliant idea for crowdfunding and realizing that executing that idea meant starting a company and all kinds of things that I’ve never thought about before in my life. But yeah, I mean, what the beauty of that is that it let us create kickstarter in a way that fit our image of what we thought a company should be and what it meant. Thio build a product in the service that was very communal oriented and that lead to things like becoming a public benefit corporation and variety of choices that we made in how we structured the company you committed early on, never to sell it, never to take it public. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the idea was just the idea was, just do what’s best for Kickstarter rather than what’s best for us. And you know that that’s those early days. I think that’s what it was mattered. Yeah, but I you know, I write in the book about the challenges I felt as a as a leader. You know, I was the CEO of Kickstarter from 2014 to be into 2017 and, you know, it was a phenomenal experience. Be a very, very challenging one. Like when you’re when you’re the one sitting in the chair, you’re like, never not worried. You’re never not having existential nightmares, you know, it’s just it’s always there for you on. That’s part of being a leader is you have to have to get comfortable with that. I eventually learned to just like I have to make friends with the anxiety I’m always carrying because this is the anxiety carries a leader is a challenge. It’s also helpful to you. You know, you’re probably not wrong about the things you’re worried about. Maybe you’re worried in a more extreme way than reality. But, you know, you have to listen. Listen to that sixth sense that you have, because it’s especially the founder of the head of it. You know, if you started your organization like you’re the one that’s really gonna know what’s what’s right or wrong, like in a deeper level. And then you even had a fear of maybe not worrying about some of the right things. Yeah, like there’s things out there that are not focused on. Yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, no one put it better than Donald Rumsfeld. Bless his heart. But the idea being known knowns and then unknown, unknown And that was always my concern were the unknown unknowns. What air? What are the things coming that are just not even on my radar is a leader, and, um, yeah, that, you know, you could waste a lot of energy on that, but also it’s kind of every organization needs someone worrying that way, because if you’re only thinking about what’s right in front of you, you’re you’re gonna get shocked by something at some point along the line. So it’s one of those things where you like you have 99 straight days of existential dread that is like all the waist and then the 100th day, You’re like, Well, I’m gonna not gonna worry about anything today And then that’s that. That’s that happens. That’s that’s always your fear is a leader, and, um and you know, it makes me that experience. It just really makes me respect leaders and feel like we, you know, leaders get a lot of rewards. A lot of financial rewards for CEOs, things like that. Those people are lionized and are idolized in the press. But there’s another way in which I think leaders still don’t quite get enough respect for what it is you take on, especially like mid level leaders, just leaders at every every level. Like we, the world really relies on sound leadership and people who have that, you know, I kind of have it that like burning feeling in their stomach that, like they have something to give. Like they you just feel compelled to serve others like we desperately need those people. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for coming again. And at the same time, you have people telling you that what you’ve created is, uh, is illegitimate that they want the financial upside of people funding projects are gonna want the financial upside those projects, they’re not gonna do it for altruistic reasons. Yeah, so and you’ve got a little first we first started and we were telling people like there’s gonna be this web site where people propose ideas to make movies and things like that, and fans are going to support them. And then the potential investors we would need would say, Oh, great. So and then the fans, like, get a cut of the box office receipts. You know, like that’s that’s not the idea. The idea is you, like, get a copy the movie first, or you get your name in the credits, you get something else. But we were trying to, you know, replace or create an alternative to, ah, model that’s already based on putting money into projects For reasons of getting a financial return. There’s there’s a lot of negative feedback. And you you need to see the vision and persevere beyond. Yeah. I mean, as an entrepreneur. Yeah, you have. You have to. You have to believe, you know, you have, like, Peter Thiel has the great line about, like, what do you believe in that no one else believes. So you have to have those kinds of things, you know? You also have to have the moment where you’re willing to let something go be like, Well, maybe I am wrong about this, and it’s hard to know where that where that line is. That’s That’s tricky for all of us. But you do need that, too. I gotta stop us for sex because I gotta take care of our sponsors. Sure, And this one is for Wagner. CPS. They’ve got a free wagon are on November 13th. Sexual harassment learned to identify it, which it’s not always clear what harassment is in the workplace. That alone is worth Well, this is free. But that alone is worth worth, learning also what the law requires you to do as an employer and tips for building a stronger team that works together and prevents workplace harassment. Goto koegler cps dot com Click resource is than upcoming events. Let’s go back to, uh, this could be our future. Just a little artificial, but I need to take care of anything. Cover sponsors. So sure, I’m just in transfers. You don’t worry about Don’t worry about me. I’m just enjoying the view. You enjoy the train on floor view of the Hudson River now, um, so that I want to move to the book is that’s why people are listening. And it is It’s It’s a very different way of thinking and expanding our values beyond what has what we’ve created. And you make the point that it can change. We created, we can change it. So now I’m I get the idea that you’re you’re fairly low questions, but we only have an hour, and we only have, like, another 45 minutes or so. Okay, so if I interrupt you sure I’m not rude. There are some things that people Okay, great guy. Please. Right. I’m so apologizing. Upfront. Um, remains will start with financial maximization way. It’s something we’ve created. It’s something you want. Oh, transcend. Go way beyond What’s financial maximization? Yes. The first half of the book Explorer introduces a theory that I have that the world has been overtaken by a belief that the rational choice in any decision is whichever option makes the most money and that this is the default setting that runs the world. And I call this belief financial maximization on this idea is so pervasive around us now that the right choice and a decision, it’s whichever option makes the most money that we think that it’s just always been like this. This is just the natural order of things. But in the book, I make the argument that this idea entered the bloodstream in 1970. The specific moment essay by Milton Friedman was sort of happening in a moment where there was a debate whether businesses had some social responsibility during the Vietnam War, ever all Americans were sacrificing Cos we’re not. Is that right? And an end to this debate? Freedom made this argument that the responsibility of the business is to maximize profits for shareholders, and and this is the moment where the way the world operated began to change. And there’s all sorts of different statistics and things I sight in the book to make that case, but you just gotta get the book way. Can’t ever. But we can’t cover. There’s there’s this. It’s just this belief is invisible, but it’s so deeply lodged in our society that is just answering every question for us and and it’s wrong. It’s wrong. You know that there’s certain sort of decisions where, yes, what what is the best financial dot com makes sense is how to do it if you’re making a budgeting choice or something, by all means. But we’re using it to decide education to decide the future of science that we’re using its reshaping our neighborhoods, where we live like it is. It is an idea that has surpassed human being’s capacity to do anything, and it’s really it’s overwhelming us. And Kick Start is a perfect example off the fact that this does not have to be it does not weigh the way we live in the way we make decisions. People did not get financial maximization from the projects they fund. I give examples of kickstarter of Patagonia of Chick fil A being closed on Sundays. The pop star del I give a lot of examples of people that are notable because they’re making different kinds of choices. And also these are people who are like real market leaders. And I think part of what makes those companies distinct is that they’re operating from a different set of values than their competitors, and it makes him stand out. And I feel like I feel like they they should be a sign of the future of what’s to come, you know, early on in the book. So I’m taking notes, get this page of notes and early on I wrote that. Okay, he says, financial maximization, not the only form of value that we should protect and grow. So I’m questioning. But is it the first? And by the end of the book, we’re midway through the book, I’m realizing, No, it’s not necessarily. It’s not necessarily. First, we’ll get into bento boxes in your individual value systems. But, um, I wondered early on, and I answered my own question. No financial maximization. It’s important. You said you’re not anti money. It’s just propio people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, um I mean, it’s documented that without without financial security, the life spans of companies and people are shorter, so I money is rationally important. But there is a point at which its importance starts to diminish and where and where the pursuit of on Lee financial value leads to the degradation of other values that are even more important. Yeah, you list some and and I thought of something Fairness, mastery, purpose, community knowledge, family, faith. And everybody’s got their own. This is where we get to the bento box for immediate and longer term, both for ourselves and for the for the world for society. Um, this was something your dad grew up Is a traveling waterbed salesman. Yeah, Well, how does that work? How do you travel in Sell waterbeds, brick and mortar kind of thing. Yeah, well, he’s sorry. He started in the in like, 74 it started by getting existing furniture stores to have a waterbed section. And so he went to every store in the South and would try to get them to create a waterbed showroom on would also be. And what someone would buy a waterbed from one of those stores. He would go on, install it, and he would, like, help teach that person had a care for the water bed. So the effort. 30 years My father worked as a waterbed salesman. He’s still a bed salesman in the mall. But now you know, this is like the temper Pedic era way gone from water to air in terms of weight. But, you know, as a result, I’m a strong defender of betting Salesman is my thought. My father’s knowledge is extraordinary. And when I hear like Casper ads that are trying to trash on salesman that air like No, these are My father knows a lot. My father could help you get a good night’s rest, but yeah, he’s a waterbed salesman and a country and folk musician. And so, yeah, that’s, you know, that you were a music critic. You grew up in Virginia. Yeah. I grew up on a farm in Southwest Virginia and always dreamed of being a writer and moved to New York after college and got a job reviewing records for the village voice and riding blurbs for radio stations. And, you know, I manage a hack out a living writing about music for about eight years before kickstarter happened. So I already felt like I was successful just by the fact that I I mean, my dream growing up was just to get out of where I waas. And so they come to New York was kind of It was a dream fulfilled. And then having my byline and spin magazine was a dream fulfilled. Yeah, I’ve been very fortunate that these been able to, you know, reach these things in my life. You thank your dad for exposing you to music. Yeah, Yeah, for sure. In the acknowledgements, for sure. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, in terms of just your own, um, adherence to what you’re proposing in the book that we look beyond financial maximization, I s I saw as that example kickstarter that you would agreed early on. It wouldn’t it would be for the people and for the projects. Yeah, not for your own financial maximization. Yes. And I, you know, country contrast that to what we’re seeing in the news just this past week or 10 days. We work out of Newman and we work. Um, it’s a The financial maximization is pervasive, but we can’t change it. Yeah, just imagine that we’re going to see Adam Newman’s name. Unlike the list of the 20 richest people, probably for the next 30 years. And we’re gonna have to know And, you know, I never meet each other. I’ve never met him, But just the idea that like that, Yeah, just how that happened. It’s It’s it’s gonna be very emblematic of this era. Um, yeah. I mean, you know, it’s, uh yeah, but you also say, you know, the world is not as solid as we think it is a kickstarter again. Kickstart an example you pioneered crowd crowd funding on so we can make changes. Yeah, all right. Although, um, how do we How do we start to for people in non-profits? So these are small and mid sized non-profits. Fund-raising is a critical task for probably 95% of our listeners and the other 5% of supporting fund-raising. It’s not critical to them, but it’s important. How do we start to move beyond financial maximization? Well, you know, for non-profits, I think it would be about it’s about thinking about impact on. I think maybe it’s having maybe it’s having a different sort of impact story to use to possibly raise raise more money down the line or something like that. But like, um, you know, in the in the first half of the book, I make this argument about financial maximization sort of overwhelming us. And in the second half, I argue that in the past 50 years we had once been a society ruled by values, the idea of what’s right or wrong or what’s meaningful. And then steadily, we switched to being a society run by value and value, really meaning financial value, and that there’s like many practical reasons why this makes sense like financial value is instantly calculated, like before making decisions on moral values. That’s messy. We probably believe different things. There’s a lot of translation that has to happen. And so the world switched to a focus on value and that and that’s what we’ve been stuck. That’s easy. Anything we can calculate about my total very simply and you know it’s undeniable. It’s undeniable, and you can use money to buy anything else on. You know, just the problem is that the conversion fees are hell you know on, and that’s what we’re finding. So what I do is I show like the emblem of the financial maxim Mason maximization mindset, I think, is the hockey stick. Graph a chart of your self interest, where the lines going up into the right. This is like the ultimate. You’ve made it kind of success story, and one day I was just doodling that in a notebook, and I just happened to you draw the lines for the X and Y axes of that hockey stick graph out farther because I realized that both of those extend the X axis of time goes from now all the way into the future. And the Y axis of our self interest goes from me to us. As our self interest grows, so does its. So does our responsibility for other people. And so I drew this and I ended up seeing that there were actually four different spaces that lived there, and I thought of these is all spaces of our self interest. There is now me, which is the bottom left corner of this graph. That’s where the hockey stick is. That’s what I want to need right now. There’s future me the bottom right box, and that is imagining the the grey hair version of yourself that made all the right choices you living in the obituary? You wish you could have. If it’s the gray haired version you’re looking at your future metoo. Yes, we’re talking. Yes, yes. Great Apple Brown. So you’re thinking about Yeah. What? What do I need to live up to? Their Finally, There’s also the now us the top left box. And that is about the people who rely on and who rely on you and then the top right boxes called Future us. And that is the next generation. And so there’s four distinct spaces here now me future, me now us future us. And I argue that every choice we make impacts all of these bases, all of these spaces impact us all the time. But today we operate believing that Onley that now me space of what I want and need right now. But that is the only rational space. Everything outside of that is sort of like emotional, questionable how real it is. And so we struggle to make decisions, considering the future or considering our collective needs. And this is why we’re, you know, sitting on her hands about climate change. This is why loneliness and depression are increasing because these air, not spaces we are feeding. We’re not protecting. We’re not growing value in the opioid epidemic. Yeah, these air, all this is all like, we just we just have his very limited notion of our self interest that has trapped us. And so I call this Bento is, um, like a bento box. And I call it a bent like a bento box. Because the bento the word derives from a Japanese word meaning convenience. And the bento has four distinct compartments or more, each one carrying a different kind of dish. So a bento always has a variety of dishes. It’s a balanced meal in the Bento also honors a Japanese dieting philosophy of Hotta Hachi Boo which says the goal of a meal is to be 80% full. That way, you’re still hungry for tomorrow. So Bento is, um is the same idea for our self interest, our values and even the definition of what is valuable. So in the book, I focus really on its uses, like, just like a framework of making sense of the world also has a personal values tool, a way to make self-funding decisions. And in the long term, the long term of this, I think, is that thes new bento space is being used to tow launch searches for new forms of value. Like can we define what sustainability is as a metric? Can we define the future of space value that suddenly we’re all start to optimize for alongside the now me financial value? And if if we can water down the monopoly of financial value by elevating the communal value, a sustainability value and maybe like a purpose related value alongside them Um, I think very naturally our choices will improve and will become better on. So you can’t. What I’m thinking is that you can’t We can’t rely on the world getting better by everyone getting woke or changing their values to be everyone goody, goody or something. I don’t think that’s a reasonable expectation, but can we have Ah ah, global increase of our self awareness that just permits us to see where our footprints were really being left. And I’m an optimist about human beings where I think that we do the best we can with what we know. It’s a part of my quest for this book was to think what new knowledge could we possess that would dramatically improve our ability to evolve from where we are now. And to me, it’s a new understanding of our self interests in a new understanding of value and not only individual, but you talk about toward the end. You talk about the organizational Benton? Yes. So that can also get concerned. We have value. Non-profits. Yes. Thinking again, not only lower left. Yeah, individual today organization today, but but globally and in the future for the organization. Yeah. So I you know, I’ve been leading these workshops. I’ve done four of these in my house and in l. A where I’ve been teaching people how to build their bentos. How you in each one of these bases there, there’s you can define what that is for you. What is your now me about? What is your future me about? And so I’ve done that for myself. And I’ve used that to make every major life choice for about a year. And I teach people how to do that and give them practice, using it to make decisions. And And I want to do that for organizations too. But the way I talk to people about us. I say this. This is a path to self coherence, right? Because the modern world requires us to compromise ourselves all the time. We do things we don’t want to do for money, because we have to. We think it’s like the more grown up thing to do, and in some cases, maybe it’s true. But I believe that there is an opportunity. If we really look at the whole picture that we can always create a self coherent choice that fulfills who we are that puts us at our best. That and that is like, truly benefiting the world. And not just this very narrow concept of what progresses You sight Konosuke Matsushita, his book not for bread alone. He’s the founder of Panasonic. Founder was founder of Paterson. Yeah, and he talks about some of the five spirits. Um, and if we need to look, I could get the book. Yeah, shoretz like the spirits. Yeah, I didn’t write them down, but, uh, but like you say, you say a little more about what? Yeah, You Why? You like that book? Yeah, Matsushita. He started the first electrical company in Japan. And like 1917 and he’s making lights on, uh, started for, like, bikes. He was a teenager, and, um and he just had. So he wrote that he wrote a book. He started writing books in the seventies and eighties, just reflecting on his life, and they are remarkably wise and humane. And I found this one not for bread alone, just just a collection of, like, kind of aphorisms from his career. And, um, and he’s just really someone that sees the big picture. And even in 1930 he explained, the 200 year mission of Panasonic was to was to eradicate poverty from the world. Like that was the reason why he started the company. Was he saw in his fellow Japanese citizens poverty and thought, This is the way to lift us out of this. Just reminds me of the company. Seventh Generation. Yeah, For every for every decision, we must consider the the impact seven generations. That which comes from Native American tradition, I don’t know. But the company do you know, the company said on all their packaging says we must consider the impact of the next seven generations. That’s fantastic. Yeah, Matsushita, you know, he’s a great writer and this I read this book while I was like having a lot of, you know, existential questions as a CEO, just like feeling so out of sync with the zeitgeist around me. Like that’s just preaching. Ah, hyper aggressive level of kind of leadership that I just know isn’t in me. And and I really struggle with this idea of like, Well, maybe someone like me isn’t can’t be leader. Maybe I’m the wrong person to be a leader. And then I read Matsushita’s book and I felt a kinship and felt like, Oh, here’s like, Here’s a very wise man who is yeah, speaking something that feels very true to me. You say we sort of became a mentor? Yeah, yeah, I would just tryto I would try to imagine I was him because there are all these scenes where it’s like his head of sales comes to him with this problem and, you know, and Matsushita has to, like, help him sort it out and always his answer is he finds a way to sort of like cut through the situation where he’s not. He’s not answering the surface question. He’s able to perceive what is the question underneath this and is able to answer that instead. And, yeah, I think Matsushita would love the Bento. I think Ben Tooism would be. I think he would identify with it very much. And, um, yeah. So, like, you know, the I think we all desire to hold these things in mind to think about our families were choices, But what? We’re trained. And it’s so easy to just fall back to the life of a default. Yeah, to the default. And so the idea here is Can we build a new muscle memory on dhe? Yeah. Just incorporate a new way of thinking. I gotta take a break for a second. I’m concerned I’m drinking more wine than you. So you got about a minute or so men and 1/2 actually. Thio, relax. Enjoy the view, have a little cheese and drink some wine. And this break 61% of Cougar Mountain Software’s customers stay with them for more than 16 years, which I think is terrific retention rate, and it’s no surprise the product is made for non-profits Includes built in fraud prevention, fund accounting grant and Doner management. Phenomenal support. What you’ve heard testimonials about koegler. Mountain has a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at Tony dahna may Slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’m still looking for innovators and Yancey Strickler would have been one, but he didn’t want to wait until the first quarter when I’m doing my innovator Siri’s so I don’t second week in a row, I indulge in author um, last week it was Leah Garces s. So But you don’t have to have written a book. You don’t have to have been a tech pioneer to be an innovator. I’m just looking for people who tackle problem differently. Then tradition. Conventional wisdom, you know, best practices would would suggest, and you’re being successful at. We need. We need some degree of success to. You can’t just be going off and not really showing any impact. So if you have, if you have a different way of looking at some problem that faces non-profits, then I’d like to talk to you because I’m doing this innovator Siri’s first quarter of 2020. You can get me through the contact page at tony martignetti dot com or just emailed Tony at 20 martignetti dot com. If you’re innovating, let’s talk and that is Tony. Stick to, um, let’s do a little live listener love. I don’t know where the live listeners are cause, like I said, you know, pre recorded. But if you’re there, if you’re listening, live to the this live stream love goes out to you whether you are checks in often Mexico City, Germany, South Korea or your New York, New York. But you get a lot of listeners from get a lot of listeners from California. North Carolina Double wear has been checking in recently. Wherever you are listening live, the love goes out to you and to the podcast audience. The pleasantries you got to the podcast pleasantries. That’s where the vast majority of our 13,000 listeners are. I don’t know. You probably bunch it all together. You may be listening Thio six or eight shows in a row. I don’t know. However you do your podcast listening. The pleasantries goes out to you go out to you because I’m grateful that you’re with us. Thanks so much for listening. Whether it’s live or podcast. Okay, can see. Let’s continue. Amen. The name of the book. I want to remind people that the book is This could be our future, a manifesto for a more generous world Like all the, uh, author’s books. Join me. You just got to get it because in an hour we can’t cover all the depth. Dancing goes into detail about some of the implications of financial maximization for entertainment. Radio movies, Broadway. You talk about Broadway? I see it on Broadway, you know, mentioned Broadway. I I see too many remakes, but he has lots of implications of financial maximization. Um, and lots of good stories like you mentioned Adele Patagonia. A lot of detail about that may well get into one of one of those. Or so you also talk about the mullet economy, which is an implication off the thes whimsical um, ideas. So I want Oh, yeah, I want to explain The bullet economy have grew out of frame maximization. Yeah, when I when I when I think about the impact of four decades now of financial maximization, the image that came to mind one day was the mullet on dhe. I trust everyone remembers the mullet. It’s the forget the height of eighties hair technology with business and front and party in the back, and and it’s got everything you need. And so where we are now is we’re living in the mall. In economy, where for 90% of people for workers, it is business in front with wage freezes, layoffs and Maur job and security than ever before. People working multiple jobs to make a living wage. And this is happening during the most profitable period in human history and the most profitable nation on earth. And right now, at this time, 43% of Americans can’t afford their bills every month. Most proper, most prosperous nation in the history of Earth, 43% percent of its citizens can’t pay their bills every month. So that’s the business in front. For the moment, the party in the back is for the top 1 to 10% um, who have just realized enormous gains over the same time. So since the 19 seventies, the average worker compensation America has grown by about 9% in about 50 years, 9% on the average. Compensation for an executive has increased by 1000% over that same time, and these things are related. The growth of income for the top has come from stopping the income gains for those on the bottom. And it works out because 90% of people are the ones not getting those 5% pay raises anymore. If you take that for 90% of population instead, put that money in the pockets of the top 1%. It adds up very, very quickly. So this has been the explicit model for, um, for the brand of capitalism we’ve had over the last 40 or 50 years. And so now we have this enormous mullet, enormous moment of people on top, being extraordinarily wealthy and again a time of incredible prosperity. And most people are are not participating in it. And, um, yeah, it’s it’s, it’s it’s a It’s a colorful way. Do I think, to illustrate what is I mean when I really think about it? I mean, I feel almost ashamed. You know, I feel I feel a sense of like I can’t believe we’re doing this. I can’t believe that we are operating like this is this is okay, like this makes sense. This is not unique to the United States. I think it’s fair. I think it’s I think the U. S is by far way have a larger well, you know, I don’t even know your wealth. Divide them, rise more highest in the world. Yeah, that’s measured through something called the Jenny Coefficient, which is like the degree of difference between average and common. High incomes of the U. S. Is one of the biggest there. I mean, the difference between, say, the U. S. And like a European country is a European country has higher taxes on people who make more money on those higher taxes are used to provide health care and other basic services that we don’t have in the States. So they’re they’re balancing it out not by redistributing wealth, but by using that well to provide the basic necessities of life so that people don’t have to worry about those things. But so in the US, for the 43% of people who can’t afford their bills each month, the things they can’t afford are those same basic safety net. And so you know, So instead, everyone has to pay for those things out of pocket. Um, but they’re doing that while getting paid. You know, like pay has increased 9% and the cost of college is in three years in 50 and 50 years. And during that same time, the cost of college is increased by 19 x Right? Healthcare’s increased by way more than that. And so wages stay down the costs. Stay up. It’s especially this especially screws over college grads, because the cost of university keeps going up and up. But pay is not going into that tell you have almost 50% of student loans now. And for parents in the U. S. Like billions of dollars because people can’t pay, people can’t pay because the jobs don’t pay enough to pay back. You know what it costs to earn the right to get that job. And this is all the mullet, just playing itself out in all kinds of different ways. I want to share some of the encouragement that that you provide in the book, which is which is a good deal of it. Um you say, um treyz, which would I prefer more what we talked about. The fragility of things, how things can change will be on that, uh, you say a good idea. Well, crafted and pursued with passion doesn’t need a gatekeepers stamp of approval to succeed. Yeah, okay, that I believe that came from your kickstarter sort of kickstarter manifesto. And the day after day after we launched, I wrote a book I wrote a blogger posted about hoexter, but goes way beyond that. I mean, we can transcend financial maximization. We can, you know, we can encourage people toe, have their own grow their own ideas don’t need you don’t need a gatekeeper. Well, you’ll be part of part of what You know. I mean, I grew up in a, you know, rural community. I read books all the time, you know, loved school, and I just believe that, like, there was just some committee that was deciding everything on our behalf and one and felt comfort in that idea. And then when kickstarter happened as it was growing, I kept waiting for like, where? Where? Where? Those people that, like, give us approval for this to be happening. And it just dahna me that there’s nothing that, like what What we choose to believe in is like it there. There are no authority figures, and that initially really frightened me it frightens me to think that wow, just us three people can dramatically reorient. How things were working like that makes me terrifies is honestly my first reaction. And then that brought with it a new level of just a different way of seeing the world. And seeing things is being more fragile than I thought. And and the book is trying to put that same feeling and people this notion that a lot of what we are going along with it, it just keeps happening because we’re going along with it. And the day we stop things change like that. Our individual actions actually do have impact. And they have impact not just on now, but the evident backed also in the generation that follows. One of things I talk about in the book is there’s a a survey done by U. C. L. A. Every year since the 19 sixties in college freshman incoming freshmen, about like their goals in life and in 1970 the number one life goal for incoming college freshman in America was to develop a meaningful philosophy of life. 85% of students said that was essential. There’s one of the option that’s about being rich in that year was about 30% of students, that it was essential to be rich. Okay, this is 1917 1970 today, 2017. The last time this study was done, 82% of students said that being rich was essential. And so and it was like 40% say having a philosophy of life is a central. And in 1970 people were looking for their philosophy in life. In 2017 they know what it is. It’s to be rich and this change incrementally year by year. And that and that changed by people’s personal beliefs changing and those things just having these multiplying effects when they get played out across a society. She’s just yesterday on the subway, I was talking to a boy was like 10 years old, sitting next to me on he was he was obviously singing, and but they didn’t have any year budget. He was just sitting on his own, and my friend asked him, You know, what do you talking? What would you like to do and where you wanna be and how come you love singing? And he said, I want to be a big YouTube singer. Yeah, you know, it’s just he must be rich and have tens of millions of views on YouTube. He was, like, years old. Sure, Yeah. No, that’s That’s the world. That’s a word. That’s the world he’s born into. Yeah, right. You know, I mean, we’re all we’re all captives of this, so But I don’t I don’t think that we have to be stuck here. You know, I think the moment, the moment that we believe that this is unchangeable is like, is, uh, you know, that’s kind of what we come to believe part. Part of my inspiration for writing this book was not feeling like I was seeing the where the people trying to optimistically imagine the evolutionary path for our species from here, How can we keep growing and evolving in a way that sustains our way of life, sustains social connections, all these sorts of things and because I think our current path is not going to result in on dso you know, just trying to imagine what could what could be done? What? What is possible. And this has led me to be super optimistic. I mean, I write about how exercise is like a modern idea. We think of exercises. It’s like it’s been here forever. We all wish we could exercise more, right. But in 1968 the segregationist Senator Strom Thurman was arrested for running outside in South Carolina because someone jogging was so weird in the 19 sixties that someone be arrested. They assumed they were fleeing the scene of a crime, and that was how unusual exercise was and those of the 19 sixties. Right in 1992 America had its first exercising president. You know, not that Kennedy was like an athletic person, but it wasn’t exercise as a personal habit. Exercise had to be invented because television was invented. And so we are still actually early on in the life of exercise as a hobby, and it’s still something that’s growing. But we just quickly become so used to it. So I think that there is. I talk a lot about these 30 year increments of time that a generation, a 30 year, a 30 year stretch of time. I think anything is changeable. Anything is changeable. If you have a plan, just the laws of calm, pounding interest show us how a small idea just growing, how it can accelerate and how that last moment, where it tips over and takes over the world kapin so quickly, like hip hop, took 30 years to go from. Not existing, too dominating the world. It took 30 years to create the Internet. It took 30 years for the antiseptic method and safe surgery to happen. Like I write about many examples of these things you use, I gotta take a last break. But you use use. Have a great party analogy. Let me just take this 32nd break and I want you to share your party analogy. This break is four Turned to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your mission. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO, and we have got butt loads. More time for this could be our future. And Nancy Strickler tell that good, cool party analogy in terms of the 30 years Yeah, generation, I encourage us to think about society is a party that’s just keeps going. And, um, we every day new people enter the party by being born, and you start off by your sort of taught the ropes. You’re kind of a wallflower that’s like ages 0 to 30. You’re kind of learning how the party works from the ages of 30 to 60 you’re in charge of the party. You’re choosing what food gets served. Your it’s your music. You dominate the dance floor. And then, by the age of about 60 you go into another room. Thio. Quiet, quiet, little conversation. Let’s sit. Let’s sit here. And then after that, people disappear from the party. But the way the party keeps going is that there is a constant transition off who is leading it. Yeah, the way that people think about the party is determined by what it’s like when they first get there. What kind of music is playing when you get to the party that tells you what the party is like? And so society is this constantly evolving party. It never stops, were constantly handing off from one baton to the other generations, this sort of evolutionary process of society and, um and so this I think this metaphor also shows how it is. These things can change, like how the decisions that one group makes while being in charge of the dance floor on the sorts of rules they create, how that affects people just entering the party and how that adjust what everyone thinks. Normal ISS. And so, you know, to think about someone who’s born was raised after the iPhone exists, which is only 2008 like they have a very different notion of normal ass. Someone like me who was born in the 19 seventies, who saw I saw the phone enter the party like I experienced. That is a new thing, right? And so there’s this way that, yeah, that we’re just sort of were passengers on this ride and it’s happening around us. But we also have, ah, riel influence on it, that that’s kind of hard, hard to perceive. But this gradual process of how things work is actually a really wonderful thing. It lets it’s what let’s certain ways of life preserve and stay around, and and it illustrates how it is. The world evolves. Yeah, and, uh, yeah, it’s a metaphor, not analogy. Thank you subtly corrected. I do that sometimes. Um, so we have, like, a about another 10 minutes or so left. What? What haven’t we talked about Book waas, Um, that you’d like to? Well, I guess, you know, I guess it’s really a lot of what the book builds to is this is this idea. Ventoux is, um, and trying Thio, usher in this new way of seeing self interest a new way of perceiving our footprint. And, um and so I I see the first step of vandalism as being people. Just learning this individually on dhe getting into it and write your bento I got right your banjo. You’ve made one here. Did did. There’s gonna be there’s gonna be a website that will go up this week, ben tooism dot warg which will be a which will guide you through the process of building a bento Be a path of self coherence to finding your values to doing that. You just answer a question of what I want to need right now. What is future me want to need And so you sort of guide through this. I think this should also happen for organizations organizations should sort of affirm their commitments and who their constituents are and how they want to impact all the spaces where they operate. And then you the book ends with, like, this sort of SciFi future of 2020 50 a man, because the book is sort of built around this notion of where we should be in 25th already 57. I suppose we could accelerate to 2040. Yeah, yeah, we can see more change there might be linked to 100. That’s future made by the way and healthful Living 200 yet. But I think I think I think in, You know, I write about 2050 30 years from now, Ben Tooism being like a real thing, that companies expand their their scope of their self interest to include not just financial values but non financial values, and that there is an organization that I imagine is a non-profit called the Bento Society that is sort of giving grants and guiding the research into new, rational values. It is trying to solve this question of how do we define how do we define sustainability? And I think the way you do that is by trying to look inside the hood of his many organizations as possible to see how they’re answering these questions and trying to find through that. What are those sort of like universal? What is universal properties that we can identify? If we look at enough examples of this and through that, maybe we can define an equation that produces, like, a metric, you know, in the same way that safer the climate crisis, we have the metric of CO two parts per 1,000,000 the atmosphere is like the way to track things. But how can that be something that we’re all aware of and that all of our is incorporated into all of our decisions? And and so I see the the long range that the long term path adventurism is being justifying the research into new forms of value, creating a framework where these things make sense and and in that I believe evolving capitalism into something else, I think, almost like a post economic kind of model where, um, the money remains important. But we see money as a fuel towards the creation of hyre values. Money is not the point on its own like that, what we’re doing right now is we’re climbing like the second rung of the ladder of Maslow’s hierarchy were achieving security. And we’re celebrating like we’re on the peak of Everest and really were, like, barely climbing. We’re barely climbing and we think we’re there. So can we raise up? Can we raise our bar? Can we raise our sights and subsumed in In all this really is, I think of empowerment. Yeah, we are each capable of changing ourselves, being introspective, seeing a different path and taking that path and then institution you say, you know, incrementally, it becomes, becomes cluster of friends that becomes institutional. And then it’s communal. And it’s xero How nation, you know, that’s how organic food happened was exactly that same way, like they’re they’re adding that exam that is a model that is a that is a replicable model for change. And, you know, it just requires people to commit. It requires, you know, me making arguments that that reach people on that build this community. I mean, I my hope for this book is it’s like the It’s the first brick and a new kind of institutional way of thinking. You know, I there’s a follow-up book to this. I think more about Ben Tooism, but I feel like there are ways this idea needs to be conjugated and evolved that my brain is not equipped to do. But maybe listen to this podcast. Maybe they maybe they have a mind that can really take some of these ideas much farther than I could ever imagine. And you know what I’ve seen with kickstarter like that? Like real success is when things outgrow you and outrun you on dhe when other people are teaching you about the thing you made. And that’s already happening with Ben Tooism for me. Like I’ve done these workshops, there are now probably 60 practicing bento us in the world, right? And they and they write me and they write me with questions saying, Hey, I face this choice to my dentist said I should do it too, said I didn’t like, How would you encourage me to think through this? And he’s using it in their daily lives? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know, I try to provide some wisdom, you know, try to help them think of these things, but people are encountering things that I hadn’t considered, you know, on Dhe. So that is how that is, how ideas go from just ideas, like living, breathing things that operate independently of us. And that’s that’s what I hope, whether Ben Tooism is the literal word used, I care less about then these new spaces off future me now us future us that we can, that we can come to an agreement about the importance and rationality of those spaces and that those convey be put on the front burner rather than the back burner and that we can have really smart conversations with, like, you know, the the amount that human beings have achieved trying to grow like just through the pursuit of financial growth is incredible, like human beings are amazing. What weaken? D’oh! So what do we what can we d’oh with a different kind of target? And so that again just makes me feel so excited, so excited about our potential. And, um and you know, my feeling is that these ideas are like touching on a raw nerve that a lot of people feel and that I think a lot of people are open to some of my early readers of the book that I asked to give me feedback are like conservative economists and partners that on Wall Street and like friends who work in those worlds really financial maximize. Yeah, who I really respect. And I want them to read this and be like, Well, I disagree with you on X y Z things, but I you know, I think what you’re saying also has merit, you know? And I want I want to be credible to those people because like, those folks were super talented and need to be a part of the solution. You know, I don’t want to blame or shame anyone like we’re all on the same ride. And so, to me, it’s the ability to just expand that perspective. And, you know, again, I just have all kinds of optimism and faith about human beings, and and I really think will step up if given the chance. I see your glass is empty. Yeah, which is good with the bad. Bad with passion about homes. So let me because we’re gonna toast one more final time. I don’t know what you’re doing with an empty glass. Cheers, Years. Congratulations on the book comes out in two days. Yeah. Thank you. Congratulations. My pleasure. If someone wants to go a little further with the Bento is, um what should they do? But they should go Thio portals. They should goto either. Why? Strickler dot com They could send me a message. Or by the time this is up, ben tooism dot or ge should be a real functioning website. Okay, I’m quite excited about that. Walks you through the whole concept. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Especially for doing it on a Sunday afternoon. Yeah, is the answer Strickler? The book is This could be our future. A manifesto for a more generous world again. Why strickler dot com And at why, Strickler Next week it’s gonna be the buy-in bitches Carrie Lewis Carlton and Laura Koch getting your boss’s buy-in when you get it, and they don’t the buy-in bitches. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com Responsive by witness e p a. Is guiding you beyond the numbers record cps dot com koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits? Tony dahna may slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producer is clear. Myer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music you better be hearing it by now in postproduction. Better be on by now. This music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. 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Nonprofit Radio for October 25, 2019: Adversaries Into Allies

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Leah Garcés: Adversaries Into Allies
It can be advantageous to work with people and causes on the other side. Leah Garcés shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book, “Grilled: Turning Adversaries into Allies to Change the Chicken Industry.” She’s also president of Mercy For Animals.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into my as assists if you got under my skin with the idea that you missed today’s show. Adversaries in tow allies it can be quite advantageous to work with people and causes. On the other side, Leah Gar says, shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book Grilled. Turning Adversaries Into Allies to Change the chicken Industry. She’s also president of Mercy for Animals on Tony’s Take to I’m Looking for Innovators, We’re sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com by koegler Mountains Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’m very pleased to welcome Lia, Gar says to the studio. She has been fighting for better food and farming systems for nearly 20 years as a leader in the animal protection movement. She oversaw international campaigns in 14 countries at the World Society for the Protection of Animals and launched compassion in world farming in the U. S. She’s been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, Buzzfeed, Vice and other media. She’s at Lia L E A. H Underscore compassion and the organs at Mercy for Animals and mercy for animals dot org’s Welcome to Studio. I’m so glad to be here. It’s a real thing. Thank you. Thanks for coming up from Georgia, where that’s where you started. The compassionate world forming. That’s right. Us. Right. And how many years ago was that? That was about eight or nine years ago now, Okay. And you’ve been president of mercy for animals little over a year, just over a year. Congratulations on your anniversary. Yeah, um, I love congratulations on the book. It’s just it’s just out, right? It came out September 3rd. Just write about that. Okay. So sick. Sweet little 16. Tried to get it. Still feels that it is Absolutely. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, you grew up in Florida. That’s right. And you had you had a lot of creatures. Beautiful animals around. You talk a little about growing up there with a canal in your backyard and and how that inspired your life work. Really? Yeah, I had the absolute great privilege of growing up in the swamps of Florida. Many people wouldn’t think that’s a privilege, but I D’oh, yeah, you’re on backed up to the book I’ve a state park and there was a ton of wildlife when I would look out of my glass sliding door. It was like almost like a prehistoric looking place. So there were ducks and alligators and otters and Herron’s and white ibis and alters that Florida has to offer. But to me, the ones that stole my heart with the ducks and my mother had these prized flower beds. He’s in patients that, when I was little, would come up to my chest, but no one was allowed to touch these flowers. Thes were like off limits. Don’t play there or you’re dead except the mother ducks. They were the only ones, and they would waddle up when they were ready to lay their eggs, and they would pat down and fix the and arrange the flowers into a nest like shape and lay their eggs and my brother, sister and I were able to watch this all unfold from inside of our screen and porch and we would lay on our bellies and right on the other side with all of this unfolding and eventually they would hatch and we would see everything. All of the dramas and the joys and the ups and downs of duck life, right? And this, really. I mean, in my mind, growing up, there was no difference between these ducks and the dogs and cats that share homes. They had the same joys and fears, and I didn’t think anything off them. Needing protection, I thought, Absolutely, they need protection. They deserve to have life worth a life worth living. And I extended that out. Two chickens to cows, two pigs. I became vegetarian when I was about 15 years old. After seeing a pita esque kind of documentary about meat where your meat comes from, I studied zoology. I just really wanted to help animals in particular. Farmed animals have a good life since you alluded to Ah video, the pita asked video that moved your inspiration. I was going to save it for later, but for listeners who eat meat. The Mercy for Animals website has I’m not even gonna say disturbing a good gut wrenching, gut wrenching videos on cows, pigs, fish, chicken turkeys. Um, it’s ah, yeah, they’re beyond disturbing. But you need to know, I think I think we all need to know what is going on in our, uh, in our food supply. Basically, yeah, I think one of the things that mercy for animals is most known for is our undercover investigations. So, unfortunately, unlike tomatoes or onions, you can’t see very readily where the animals that end up on our plate are being raised, and that’s kept behind closed doors on purpose. So for that reason, we have to send in undercover investigators to take footage of the normal day to day practices of factory farming. And as an organization, we’ve produced over 70 investigations and you can find them on our website and they really show unfortunately, very normal things that happen every day. But they’re horrible. They’re horrible, their gut wrenching. As you said, they’re very difficult to watch. But I think it’s important, and our job is to bear witness to that and to bring that darkness out into the light so that people can be aware and make choices the match, their values. So let’s let’s bring it to the chickens that are the the the story of the entire book on Dhe. I think, for for our purposes, there’s sort of a vehicle because we want to talk about engaging with your adversaries, and you have some great stories in the book. But let’s want you, Ah, we have, like, two minutes or so before our first break. Why don’t you set the stage for us about chicken forming? Yeah, So 90% of all farmed animals are the chickens raised for meat, so that’s a bit of a shocking figure that includes that. So there’s nine billion that air raised just in this country. That’s just meat chickens, excluding all other farmed animals, and the majority of those, like 99.8% or raised behind closed doors, they are stuffed wallet, a wall in a darkened warehouse. Ah, their litter is never changed. The error is ammonia laden dust laden, but the worst thing happening to these chickens is how fast they’re made to grow through selective breeding, so they grow incredibly fast, incredibly large. They’re slaughtered it only 40 days of age, though their babies still. But there they’re obese at this stage because of the preference for the large breast meat. And they’re kind of cages. Their genetics. They grow so big, so fast, they collapse under their own weight. Their heart and lungs can’t keep up with the metabolic demand for that fast growth, and they often have heart attacks and problems. So even if the birds go beyond this 40 days, most of them would die of a heart attack before a year of age. So it’s a very cruel and unnatural process and really constitutes one of the largest causes of suffering on the planet. You make the point that if humans grew as fast as the chickens are because of this breeding, we we’d be £600 by. I think age, too, is that it could be six if we grew at the same rate, correct £600 by age to correct. OK, so that’s our That’s the setting. That’s what Leah was out to change. And that’s what the book is all about. That change that change process. So when we come back we’ll dive in further. Let’s take this first break. Wagner, CPS. They’ve got a free wagon are on November 13th. Sexual harassment learned to identify it, which is interesting because that is not always black and white. What constitutes harassment in the workplace? Learn what the law requires you to do as an employer and tips for building a strong team that works together to prevent and identify workplace harassment. That Wagner cps dot com Click Resource is than upcoming events. Let’s go back Thio adversaries into allies. Um, the first you wanted to engage you needed to engage with the other side. And listen, you just gotta buy the damn book because, you know, we, as I always say, with authors, we cannot fill. We can’t tell the whole story. There it’s There are poignant stories that we may not get to. There’s great anecdotes. There’s funny moments. There’s very touching and tender moments. So you just get the book. We’ll you know we’ll do the best we can in an hour. Thank you. Absolutely. Craig Watts. Craig is Ah ah Farmer. We’re calling for a chicken, Right? Chicken farmers don’t make sure I’m doing right. Okay. Um, I want to do more than just a white. What? Why did he Why? Why was he willing to meet with you? That is a great question. Um, so let me back up a little and say that at the time I met Craig Watts, I was desperate. So I had been, as I just revealed, that said earlier had, you know, it’s very difficult to know what’s going on inside of a chicken factory farm. And I have been trying to get footage from inside of one. Yeah, let me just what states have done to prevent investigative reports like Mercy Franz. Instead of improving conditions for the chickens, they enact laws that prevent investigators and even employees from shooting video, whether it’s explicit or undercover, right? So they another method of hiding the Legislature’s. A lot of state legislatures are involved. Unfortunately, unfortunately, including in my state, North Carolina, I noticed you cite North Carolina’s one of states, so rather improve the the the production of the lives of of the Chickens. They just hide the hide, the facts. But yeah, that’s called AG gag and right. It’s an AG gag law, and North Carolina has one, and but it didn’t have one. When I started working there, I got one just after I worked there because Craig is from North Carolina. That’s right. And I had asked companies to give me tours. I had knocked on doors. Nobody would let me. So when a journalist introduced me to Craig Watts, I had to say Yes. I was scared out of my mind as a vegan animal rights activist to go meet with a chicken factory farmer in the poorest county of rural North Carolina. But I thought, I gotta go. So pack my bags with filmmaker named Reagan. Hodge, headed to Hiss Place about five hours from Atlanta, did not know what I was getting into. I remember telling my husband like, Here’s the address. Look for me buried in the chicken litter. If I don’t come back, I might be rotting away their compost fast. So be quick. And, uh, when I showed up, you know, he let me in the door, and then we went, and I spent the 1st 5 hours with the question You just asked me in my head as he was telling me his story, like, Why is he talking to me? why in the world, because in my mind and my paradigm, my framework, he was just an evil person that did this horrible thing to chickens. And up until that point in my career, I had been angry at him, blamed him. I even had wished people like him ill. I hope he lost his job. You know, I hoped he was unemployed, so I thought in my head this was some kind of ambush, you know? But I had to do it anyway, because I was desperate to get footage, and I kind of thought I was gonna go there, get footage and get the hell out of there and, like, never come back. But as I sat there listening to his story, that fear was totally replaced by feeling ashamed that I had never thought truly about him as a human being and why he would have made the choices that he would even wished him ill. Correct. And I mean, after he told me his story, I knew why he you know, he was desperate to. He wanted out and he was trapped. And to explain that Craig, when he was in his early twenties, he wanted to stay on the land in a poor county in North Carolina, and there were no other options at the time, so tobacco had fallen out. There’s no other jobs. So when the chicken industry came to town and said, If you take out 1/4 of a $1,000,000 loan, which will arrange for you, you could be your own business man, you can stay on the land that’s five generations has been passed down and you just have to raise chickens for us. We’ll drop them off and then we’ll pick them up at the end. And every time we do that, we’ll give you a paycheck. And at first it works really well. So he would raise the chickens and they would take them and then get a paycheck. And the payoff that quarter of a $1,000,000 like a mortgage but its factory farming. So after a while, the chicken started to get sick and they died. And you don’t get paid for dead. But you make the point that a ll the feet and all the time that went into those. But I guess primarily it’s feed that goes into the dead birds. That’s all some costs. That’s all lost cost for go and propane electricity like they’re heating the houses. They’re you know, they’re paying for the loan itself, that the structure is the loan. There’s a lot of bills. So the idea is, he just should have a little bit toe feed his family at the end. But it started to not look that way. And he got toe. He paid off his loan and then within, like, a year and 1/2 for two years, the producer he was produced. It was he was he with producer deal. He was insisted on upgrades to the house. They call them houses. That’s a euphemism. There were these gross. I don’t know. Warehouses. Yeah, they’re metals. They’re bigger than sheds. They’re huge. They’re like our thing. 100? Yeah, they’re like, the size of a football football. And then, like 40 yards wide, 40 feet, 40 feet wide, 40 feet. Thank you, anyway. So then Purdue insists on upgrades. So just take out another loan and he’s back where he had been for the 12 or 15 years paying off a new mortgage on the on the upgrades s never ending. Yeah, and that’s a. That’s a subtext to the in the book is the cycle that thief you chicken producers hold the way that they hold the farmers captive, their indentured servant analogous to the way the formers are holding the chickens captive. They are captain, nothing about the chickens. I just because they’re because they’re in their own feces and it’s there is a 30,000 of them in each again house each, each one of these large houses, and they can’t walk like you. Like you were saying. They flap their wings to try to move, but they for a lot of them it’s hard to get to the food or the water. And they’re they’re festering in this in this feces concrete floor, and they get these sores on their their bottoms, right and on their bellies, is it? And they end up with these open wounds source because they’re laying in feces for 40 isn’t 40 days, 40 days, 47 in the big. In the beginning, they will be smaller in there, more mobile. But as they get into the last half of that growth period, they find it very hard to move. And what happens is because they’re all squashed together for one of the moves. It’s like shift shift shift. I imagine you see this wave if you d’oh d’oh! And so it’s this constant kind of slight shifting happening in the flock. But what’s happening is there undersides are rubbing against, Ah, hot letter. Nowthe litter itself is composting all the time, so it won by night. It’s breaking down. That’s right, I’m posting. I put a thermometer into the literate one point. It was 87 degrees. So they’re sitting on hot litter, constantly rubbing. And so at one point I picked up one of the chickens, and this would be the photo that would end up in The New York Times, and I was picked it up. You could see her underbelly was red and raw, and it was like a bed sore, you know, and that’s where a lot of infection can come in. But it’s It was warm and mushy. It was terrific. That’s Ah, that’s Chapter five is when we find that out, it’s called crossing Enemy Lines. When you do a video, your first video and you say you’re you’re knocked over, your eyes are watering your coughing. You were concerned about pulmonary problems and didn’t take some antibiotics. Take a steroid to clear my lungs because I spent a lot of time filming and in the House is on and working with Reagan to film. And I already had had an infection of some kind, you know, just like your winter cough kind of thing. And it got horrific. We had a tank taking, turning off the camera and just say you were embarrassed about what you recall. It was horrible. And but then I kept thinking, First of all, this is the chickens entire life. That’s is the only thing they ever experienced in here. And I kept thinking back to my ducks like they’re they’re lovely life out in the, you know, in the river and the swamps. And and then, by comparison, these very similar animals are living in ammonia laden, dust laden hot, you know, environments that air just unsuitable for any Centeon being. So Craig wants you to see this on, and I think one of the it’s one of the things that comes through is, you know, howto build bridges to adversaries is is trust. He learns that he can trust you you. You just articulated how you were starting to trust him, and he feels comfortable opening up. But after many hours, it’s not like he brings you on and then says, Let’s let’s start filming But you talk to him for a long time. Well, really, it was over a couple of months, you’re e mailing and, well, even we filmed. But there was no, you know, we started filming. We came back a second time. We came back 1/3 4th just to learn and be side by side with him to understand what his job was like, what was his day to day like and learn from him what the real problems were of the chicken industry. And truly, it wasn’t until you know, a couple of months after meeting in person that we decided to release the film. And that was the big trust moment because there was so much risk involved with risk for him. Because, as we’ll see in the book, the producers have have their own policies. If if the state doesn’t have a law on ag gag law, the producers have their own policies, right? So in the case of Craig, the big risk for him was losing payment, you know, losing income. And he was also so if you lost, if they decided to cancel his contract, he had no way to pay off that giant mortgage. And then the other thing is his neighbors, you know, he was afraid of being isolated. Everyone around him is growing chickens. If he goes and outs the one source of income in his county, that’s scary. That’s a brave thing to Dio. And you were under some attack too. Oh, yeah, from you know, fellow activists, Why Why are you partnering? Why are you even talking to these people? They really thought I had kind of romanticized this idea of the struggling farmer. A lot of activists kind of thought I had really been drawn in by this idea, like romanticized the rural struggle. And I just I just had to put that to one side. And I knew what I knew from talking to this human being and really seeing firsthand and hearing firsthand his struggle. So trust I think trust is ah is ah, key takeaway for us and poignant that toward the end of the book. Jim Perdue who? Purdue Craig Craig’s, Greg’s producer, talked about trust, and he says that it’s what it’s what we’ll get adversarial parties through the rough spots. Basically, I’m paraphrasing. But Jim Perdue later in the book makes the point that the value of trust, which I felt with the two of you Craig early on in the book yeah, it’s all about trust in You know, Craig and I came out with a video and it had a 1,000,000 views in 24 hours. It was insane. We never expected some that kind of impact. And it was a roller coaster for six months after that, and and Purdue who we were exposing as not being honest with customers. They had a label that said Humanely raised right and we were saying, This is not what customers think of when they see those words. We expose that and I think the very good story of you in the book by what We can’t go into it. But you talking to the butcher in a grocery store, quizzing humanely raised. You know you’re not satisfied with your digging deeper. What humanely raised me. What does this mean? That was a launching point for you Get the book. Get the book. You’ll read the story. Thank you. That is a good story. Yeah, well, I’ll tell real quick that I kind of was it a Kroger with my kids shopping? And this is where I first spotted this label which started this whole provoc deliver story. Oh, bythe tell this one. Go ahead. You’re well, I just I was sitting there like looking at the meat manager like looking at the meat. You know, I’ll which I as a vegan is weird. My kids were looking at me like, What are you doing, Mom? But I was looking. I’m like, What is? This is pretty green Package. Looks like it’s you know what people want Organic e looking green around. You’ve seen it right? It’s on three earthy Look, I asked to meet manager, and he got so annoyed with my questions, he ended up dragging the box back from the back that I don’t know, just look at it. And that’s where I figured out that because it had a Purdue label want it, then that’s when I called customer service and ever, and that’s how I found, you know, knew what Craig was doing and you know, later weeks with the Jim Perdue connection. They stonewalled me for about a year they would not produce, would not have a conversation. They were very angry about what happened and very defensive in the in the initial stages. But then about a year later, after we came out with the video, I was reading The New York Times and there was an article about Purdue moving away from antibiotics and right at the very end there was a quote from Jim Perdue that said, We need happier birds and I was like, What is that? That has nothing to do with antibiotics. Why did he say that? I got very excited. I wrote to their PR person and I said, Look, can we try again? Like I read this, I can see you’re thinking about it and I see you’re looking into it. And to my surprise, they did answer that email. And this began a dialogue which led to speaking to the executives and writing the first animal care policy, addressing some of the very things I criticize them for not doing like putting some windows for natural light, giving the birds more space and in Richmond’s and things like that, and we continue tohave that dialogue, and they’ve made a lot of progress to their credit, you see, and you see that progress through the book? Um, another. Another important point I think about that you bring out about bridging making relationships with adversaries is you say you gotta walk a mile in his or her shoes. Let’s talk about that and how it relates to Ah, like you and Craig and Jim Perdue walk a mile in their shoes. Yeah, I think from when I started off. Like I said, I wished people like Craig Ill. And then when I sat down with him and began toe, really understand his hardships and the choices he made. This really changed the problem for me and then therefore changed the solutions that needed to be created in order to end factory farming. And one of those key things was basically job options in the farming community in rural areas like North Carolina and walking thinking of like walking a mile in their shoes. I started to change the way I was talking to him, and instead of thinking, how can I put Craig out of a business. I started to think, How can I create a new business opportunity for him? A new farming, you know, type of things. So we’re now mercy for animals is about to launch a new project precisely around that. Looking at how to transform farmers from being chicken farmers into, say, hemp farmers or which and CBD makes a lot more money than chicken, I can tell you so These are the kinds of things I started to change. Change, change the problem in my mind. So it changed the solutions, and I think that was really important. They’re too poignant moments that I thought related to both trust and walk a mile in their shoes. You were concerned about Craig’s soul as he’s day after day, spending 12 15 hours calling dead chickens. You have to listen. You have to read about how they do that through the through the warehouses and, um and what? That what? What? That process killing many a day. What that does to his soul. You were concerned about his soul, and then the other is when Jim Perdue asks about how your newly adopted daughter is doing, and I thought, you know that there. She’s concerned about Craig, the farmer. Who was she? A Bush Tilda. And Jim Perdue, of all people, is asking you, You know something personal and intimate about about your about your life, And I thought, That’s an example of trust and walk in their shoes and those connections air, you know, remind you there’s there’s a human being behind behind. There is a human being in front of you. And, you know, connecting with them takes some of the walls down that we we artificially create a lot of the times, and I think that’s really important. And there’s another and I’ll tell another story. I’m not to give them all away, but later your book. It’s your income stream. I’m doing the best I can. Well, uh, just for so your listeners know all the income goes thio compassionate world farming for the book. So if you want to help end this by the book and you can give it a CZ gifts to your friend holidays. So, um, so you know, one of the chicken producers we worked with later on I can’t name them because I don’t want to be named, but we went to visit them, and we were the first advocates to go talk to them is where Mike work-life and they invited us and is the first time. And as my co worker Rachel Dress Ken and I walked in the door, we could see people like peeking over the cubicles and whatnot, and we sat down. I pulled out my presentation. The guy was really negative. He had his arms folded and you could tell he was uncomfortable. And then after my laptop pulled up, my desktop picture came up and it was of my family. And he saw my daughter, who clearly looks different. She has coffee, color, skin and ringlets, and and he said, Is that your kid? And I said, Yeah, that’s my daughter just got back from adopting her and it’s been tough. And I was like babbling on an emotional and you know, And and he said, Oh, well, I have two adopted kids and, like from that moment on, the walls came down. We started talking about the ups and downs of raising kids, and it turned out his had a foster care that he did with his wife ministry and in those moments, the trust and the humanization of each other. And we were It was really built and were able to make so much more progress because of that. And we remain really able to talk despite the differences, which makes it possible to make so much more progress. I thought humanize, don’t demonize. That’s a great and then you so that you’re getting to another one that I was I was gonna get you But, um, finding common ground and that common ground is not necessarily related to the subject matter you’re talking about. In this case, it was adoption and foster care. You found common ground totally unrelated to the subject. You were you were convening over, right? We could say more about if you want me to take another break. Um, yes, 61%. 61% of Cougar Mountain Software’s customers stay with them for more than 16 years. That’s fabulous. Retention koegler Mountain software. It’s made for non-profits. It includes fraud prevention, fund accounting, Grant and Doner management. Phenomenal support, which you’ve heard testimonials about, and they have a free 60 day trial. You will find that on the listener landing page at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain last time for Tony’s Take two. I’m looking for innovators if you are approaching something unconventionally and succeeding at it, by the way, that that part’s important. Or maybe you know, a colleague or friend or client who works differently and is succeeding. I’m hosting an Innovator’s Siri’s early next year, first quarter of 2020 and I would like to talk to innovators, people doing something differently and succeeding at it. Leah would qualify, but her book came out earlier, So I very graciously I’ll, uh, say, uh, conceded Thio, meeting with talking to her earlier rather than making her wait until the first quarter of 2020. Um, so anybody similar? Get me Tony at tony martignetti dot com Or use the contact page on tony martignetti dot com and you don’t not do not have to have written a book Azaleas. But just doing something different and doing it well. And that is Tony. Stick to Let’s do the live listener love, which is abundant. Well, it’s abundant. Uh, let’s start abroad. MADRID, Spain Buenos Star Days Young son Korea comes, uh, sorry, sir Korea Annual haserot comes a ham Nida Saigon, Vietnam Berlin, Germany Guten tog Um Seoul, South Korea Khartoum, Sudan Thank you for being with us. Sudan. I don’t think you have before. That’s wonderful. Live love Out to Sudan, Singapore, Tijuana, Mexico Buena Star Days, Minsk in Belarus, Londrina, Brazil I may have pronounced it wrong, but I apologize. I apologize for that. But the live love goes out to Brazil. So glad you’re with us. Uncle A turkey. It’s remarkable. Uh, really. Woodbridge, Ontario in Canada and Munich, Germany. Guten tag to Ah, Munich as well and then bring it home. Tampa, Florida New York, New York. Multiple as always. Thank you. Thank you not to take New York for granted. New York City multiple listeners. Special live love after New York, New York. Thank you for that. Broomfield. Colorado is with us, and so is Rockville Center, New York. I have good friends. Rockville Centre. There’s a good steak house there, read by the train. What’s the name of that? Oh, that’s a bad subject. Sorry, Leah. Gar says that Steakhouse sucks. It’s right by the train station in Rockville Center, Fairfield, Connecticut. Miami, Florida, Little Falls, New Jersey. Wow. In New Jersey, live love out to New Jersey and, of course, all our live listeners. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. And we have to do, of course. And I have to send the podcast pleasantries because that’s where the vast majority of our our lives, our listeners aren’t. Despite this plethora of live listeners, still the vast majority podcast. That’s where the over 13,000 r and I thank you for being with us pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Thank you, Leah. That indulgence. Um, hide everyone everywhere. That’s amazing. That is, it could be it could very well be the subject. You could very well be. You could very well be the subject, but that’s a lot of live listeners. Oh, but I know some people in Tampa and Madrid, so maybe it’s, you know, perhaps, um, just get the book. If you get the bucket’s, you’ll have the same personal conversation. We just came out of the audio. So Bloomsbury just put the audio book out, too. Okay, that’s helpful. Okay. Are you there? Are you the reader? No. Okay, go. The Springsteen seems to be very popular among sustainers Now, you like it would take a long time. I’m trying to read it out loud to my nine year olds right now, and we’re only about halfway through. We read a couple pages tonight, but it takes a long time to read it out loud, I think. Um, So we were talking about Yeah, the common ground. You want to say anything more about common ground than, uh than I attempted? I think you did a good job. There’s a lot of stories in the book that, um, sort of layout how that’s possible to start this conversation’s and search for that common counting ground and how that really changes the atmosphere of that you’re trying to create solutions in and how important that is. Okay, Okay, um, another poignant story when, uh, Mike Weaver again find out who these characters are. He agrees to introduce you to another farmer named Eric Eric Hedrick, who was the He was the largest West Virginia grower. Eric was a grower for Pilgrim’s Pride, which I immediately thought should be Pilgrim. Shame Way should start a website immediately. All those campaigners out there by up pilgrim Shame shame dot should be dot or gore dot com Mike Weaver, where his motivations similar Thio introducing you to, uh, Eric similar to Craig’s. So I think everybody’s different but similar in that he was. He was very passionate about how unjust the system is for farmers. So he too, while he was better off financially than Craig. He had really taken it upon himself to be a farmer activist and really try to confront Pilgrim’s pride and get them to change their contract system and had failed, as as Craig Craig Craig had raised objections to Purdue. Yes, and fell on deaf ears. Correct? Yes. And in West Virginia, where these two farmers are still, there was a horrific disease, and this disease had caught called gangrenous dermatitis. Gangrenous dermatitis. Yes, where it’s basically like gangrene, where it’s a bacteria that eats the birds from the inside out very quickly at the end of their sort of the flock cycle, which is particularly city for the farmers because they’ve got all the feed and other resources invested, and so in near the end, like in Week six, they’re dying, and they don’t get paid for that, right? So that’s, you know, money out of their pocket. And it’s also a horrific way for the birds to go and this disease they had been trying to get rid of and there seemed to be no end to it. And pilgrims was not helping and not helping the farmers, right? They wouldn’t provide antibiotics that they won’t intervene. They wouldn’t intervene. So this was causing the particular farmer. You just mentioned Eric and his wife, Rachel, to head towards bankruptcy. And that was a horrific situation for them. I have three daughters and they didn’t know what they were going to dio. And he was very heavily invested. He had 12 houses, right? And didn’t Craig have what three or four had four. Mike had to. That’s more typical. Well, this guy Eric had Eric had 12. Yeah. Yeah, it was a big Grauer. 12 times 30,000 per house. Things like 360,000. Yes, chickens at a time. Exactly. And it was an overwhelming task for him so that when he told them, Look, I’ve got these birds, They’re dying. They’re Pilgrim’s. Pride’s answer was so hire more people to pick up the dead birds faster. So the companies response to we have, like a serious illness, is pick up the corpses faster, which was ridiculous, purely a commodity. Drank to the producers that things have changed. I guess there’s more humanity in it now. Somewhat, it’s getting its Pilgrim’s has done nothing xero. They’ve made no commitment. That’s why you want him. Shame. Credit you with the campaign afterwards. Pilgrim’s has not moved. Some have, and we’ll talk. We’ll get a chance to talk about other Other industries have changed restaurants, et cetera, foods to food outlets, etcetera. But at this time, there was no humanity in it at all was purely, ah, a tradable commodity. Right, right, right. Um, so you know, this is it’s It’s interesting that, you know, these farmers want just they they want to be heard. They want a voice and the companies that they’ve been appealing to A Z said, uh, death falling on deaf ears. But if they’re just people who want to be heard and some of them, I guess they’re more motivated by the concern for the for the birds and some it sounds like Eric more motivated by their own personal financial straits, that they’re that they’re tied, it constrained into. But in the end, they just all want a voice. Yeah, yeah, and I mean the thing with factory farming of chickens is it has such a detrimental impact on so many parts of our world. So whether you are concerned about human health and the disease that comes in and out onto our plate from these farms, or about workers, justice or we haven’t even discussed in my book doesn’t really go into the slaughterhouses and the injustice around the workers there, which are mostly Latino axe and often treated very poorly, especially the women. Or you’re concerned about the animals in the just inherent abuse in the system or the environments in the pollution that comes from it. There’s just so many negative parts, and that’s why I say it’s the biggest cause of suffering on the planet. It really touches on so much of our life. So whatever you care about you can you know, whatever is your passion, you’re centered thing. You confined that connection, and for me, that was This is a journey and discovering it’s not because for me I come from it primarily because I care about the animals. But in meeting these farmers, I started to really open my scope up. Understand this this is a much bigger issue, and there are more allies I could have We could march together against this and that would be so much more powerful. And that was one of my takeaway studio, uh, subsumed in everything we’re saying, If you can give your adversaries a voice, if they don’t have a voice, maybe you can support each other in creating that right? And you know, that’s that. I still in learning that lesson, I’m still finding those, um, were we joined, you know, two forces and become more powerful as a result to to get to the same end. You talk about giving the other side of a path to winning on. That reminded me of things I’ve heard in politics when you know which are back when things were more normal, way cared about foreign nations and the sensitive sense of sensitivities and sensibilities of foreign leaders. You know, I would hear in politics, you know, give them a path to success. But in the book, you say you give the other side of path to winning. But I again another takeaway for helping build bridges. Let’s talk about that. Yeah, and I mean, that applies to the farmers, but also applied to these companies that were trying to change where we’re saying, Can you move away from this horrific, unsustainable, cruel system into something else? And we really began to explore plant based alternatives, and you might think that’s insane to suggest, like chicken companies would produce, you know, soy based products or pea protein. But they are, And this was, sir changing this mentality of. We’re not trying to put Purdue out of business. We’re trying to help them evolve into a different business or Tyson evolve into a different business. And these That’s where we start to build this other path. When there we think there’s no way forward. You kind of really have to be creative and think, How can I help their business model involved into something else? And before you know you have Burger King selling impossible burgers all over the country, it’s happening. It’s happening. And that’s how we evolve into a different business. Um, we just have about two more minutes for before our final break Global Animal partnership. I thought that was an example of a path toward winning for our adversaries. Talk a little about yeah, global animal partnership is a certain animal welfare certification. You can look it up. So if you ever been in whole foods, you’ll see numbers on the meat one through five. So that is basically five is totally pasture raised, slaughtered on farm. And the animals are living the most natural life they could in a commercial setting. And one is better than industry, but and no cages, no crates and that kind of thing, but not outside. So you have this spectrum and where before we didn’t have this very clear. Ah, certification for the animals. This has evolved in the last 10 years or so as one of the very clear certifications where you can say, I know exactly where my meets coming from exactly how the animal was raised. And I can put my my kind of money to my values and decide which one through five I’m comfortable with and then look for them in the supermarket, a path toward a path toward winning. And that was a partnership with the worked with CEO of Whole Foods, right? John Mackey? Yes. All right, Let’s take our last break. Turn to communications PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories. So simple. But they know it. They the pros, all the while building support for the work that you do. They are into media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and brand strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to dot CEO. And thankfully, we’ve got butt loads more time for, ah, be a gar says and adversaries into allies. Oh, and fast. I feel like going fast. I’m glad it’s a good That’s a good sign. Is it? Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, for sure. Okay, Um, what do you do that start out? What do you want to talk about? I feel like I’m dominating, but I’m supposed to move things along because we do have an hour constraint. I wouldn’t want to talk about my book, so that’s great. We’re doing well. Wait. What do you want to talk about in the book? Think up something. What do you do? You love what? I love story or a story? A story or something? I don’t know. Uh, I guess you know, one of the things that really changed Another part that changed my career path is having kids and I think a lot of people can relate to this. And I hear a lot of advocates say this to our people. Work in the non-profits space. There’s a some point in your life when you you say, like, I really want to make a difference now and I really want to focus on on delivering my values into the world and for me that was when my first son was born. So I had been working in non-profit already, but had been working on all animals. And it was only after my son Ruben was born that I just sort of looked at him and I thought, Okay, like all my heart is in this one child and without a doubt in 18 years he’s gonna leave. So if when I’m working and I’m not with him, I have got to be ruthless with my time and my impact, and that really switched to really focus on farmed animals because farmed animals are the most impacted of any of the animals on our planet that we try to help. So way way overshadows dogs and cats, which is where the majority of our philanthropic dollar goes to. In the end, the United States Animal Welfare Act formed. Animals are excluded right so far, and there’s Animal Welfare Act. All farmed animals are excluded from that. Then we have the Humane Slaughter Methods Act, which excludes which is supposed to be that animals were rendered unconscious before the knife hits their throat. But all chickens are excluded and Fisher excluded. And that’s basically all the animals that we killed. You said 99 98% of the animals we kill our and not only that, but unfortunately that under the current administration they have made slaughter extremely unsafe and fast. So it used to be, if you can imagine this about 100 and it was permitted 125 birds per minute in the slaughter plants, and they just changed that for 100 and 75 birds a minute. That’s three a second. Can you even imagine that? Not only that, but they’ve removed the policing by the USDA fromthe slaughterhouses, and they’re allowing the companies to police themselves, self certified, basically, yeah, and that’s really there’s very clear evidence that results in more health safety issues and you know So for me, it’s just I cannot sort of I can’t emphasize enough how important the problem of helping farmed animal is and on, and it’s the main focus of my life. And you were talking about your son, your son, your first son’s birth. Yeah, that really his birth kind of was Ah ha moment. A lightbulb moment was like, You know, time’s a wasting like I have to focus and if I’m away from him, it better before good reason. And that really helped me to focus something you say that that I thought was a very empathic moment. It’s Earth’s early on. I’m quoting you, Anyone can end up on the wrong path despite the best of intentions that has you tell it in your duck story. Don’t tell that one relates to the relief to the docks. He she she helps the ducks. Leave it at that. You got to get the book to read the story, but But I thought that was very empathic, that I mean that related to all the farmers that that worked with you. They had good intentions. Craig wanted Toa send his kids to college and make a find a living to do that and stay on his his five generation A family land in southern North Carolina. Great intentions, but can end up on the wrong path. That was very empathic statement. Thank you for picking up on that, That I wasn’t sure if everybody would. It was a small sentence in there, but it was meant to be very symbolic because that is the limbs we have to go in. And, you know, uh, the part you know about someone’s life is like is, you know, the a tiny fraction of what their whole life is, And you have to go in realizing there’s so much more to this person in their story, and you won’t have any clue what it is. And so you can. They could have started off this journey thinking the things you said like they want to pay for college. You want to stay on the land, they want to pay their employees, They wanna, you know, by a you know, college fund, or help a charity or do a ministry for foster care. Who knows? But it could have been unintentional bad consequences, And that happens a lot in our world, and it’s about help. It’s not about blaming, shaming and pushing people into a corner when they made those choices, but really trying to find the pathway out for them that that it leave the door open for them to get out of there. That’s beautiful. Segue, because I was thinking next again, building bridges to adversaries. Um, I don’t know if it’s Jim Produce says that. Or, you know, I think you say this. No, no change can be achieved without the opponent’s engagement on I think it comes to the context of your working with working with Jim Perdue, but that, you know, that’s for the for the extreme extremist activist who will never talk to the other side. You realize now you’ve come to light that that’s an enormous mistake, right? And in my case, I’m not in charge of a single chicken. I have no access, so the only way I can access the animals I’m trying to help is through either the farmer of the company. So I have to enter their space. I have to understand their problems, their dilemmas, and try to build solutions from that space, which is very uncomfortable and it’s messy and it’s difficult, but you have to. We don’t really make progress by only talking to people who agree with us. That’s not the place. You make product enormously important. And you’re right. You don’t You don’t control a single chicken. Yeah, um, very impact that. You mean the whole book is really starting with the ducks in the backyard? Very. It’s a very empathic story, I think. Um, who else was, uh Well, it’s where and ask you about some people. Jim Perdue. How did how did he eventually come around? Well, you know, the first time I met him, I don’t know. I was gonna meet. Okay? You had said he had quote. We need happier chickens. You engaged with him? Would you engage with the company? And he responded. That’s right. I’m sorry. Yeah, we talked about that. Um, but then you end up doing panels with him sitting next to him being interviewed. Yes. What was that like? Terrifying. You talk about being backstage with him, but he says he trusts you. He looks you in the eye and says, I trust you. But first he said, I feel like a lamb being led to slaughter. Many said, Trust you. So it was the humane. I guess he was hoping I wouldn’t slaughter him. It would be a humane slaughter. He would be unconference. State, I guess. Yeah, it was terrifying. And he and his wife, Jan, came over to London to speak at a conference called the Extinction Conference, held by Compassionate World Farming. Looking at the connection of factory farming with causing so many species to go extinct and the impact on our planet. And he came to speak and talk about working with each other and how difficult that was. And we were interviewed by Maren McKenna, who is a great journalist. She wrote the book called My Gosh Big Chicken and and it was terrifying. But again, you know, he was very honest, and I think both of us. I have lost some friends and becoming friends in the process. But we both can’t resist the pathway to of forging this better way, and I I think eventually others will follow this way, and the dominoes have started to fall. I think you have a chapter, a section called the Dominant of Falling Down or something related to over 200 companies have agreed to a new policy on on chickens that are raised for meat. And these air across their producers, their food service companies, groceries, restaurants like Chipotle Panera. No groceries yet sadly. But we have groceries. No groceries. We had hope. Who’s also holds duitz, of course. Sorry. Whole fits. I forgot. I was thinking, like, giant ones like Wal Mart, which I still were still working on, but, um, find common ground. Trust them. Give them a path toward winning. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so subway and Burger King, for example, have agreed Thio ah, to change their some of their conditions. So including giving the birds more space. A better breed that causes less suffering, better slaughter conditions that render the animals unconscious before they’re shackled. So lots of these progress is being made. And Purdue did lead the way by creating um by saying they would provide the chickens at this hyre welfare certification. Not sort of occasion, but standard. And that’s, you know, I think, um, proof that sometimes you have to step out in front and you have to do these uncomfortable, messy and difficult things and conversations, but others will follow. If you could be brave enough to do that, I read the book. The evidence is abundant that that’s that’s the case. Let’s just have a few minutes before we wrap up. Let’s talk a little bit. So where you mentioned your Burger King? I’m seeing a lot of press, including investment. Investment advice around Impossible Burger. What’s the other one Beyond? Beyond Beyond Burger, Right Beyond Beyond Beyond Meet Impossible Burger and and you wrap up with well near wrap up with regenerative organics. So so organic alone on chicken Is not organic is not synonymous with humanely raised the way we’re talking about. It’s not synonymous with pastor raises. It’s Ray’s. Tow the food right, the right thing. That means the feed has been raised without pesticide. You have to see you realize you have to see pasture raised or the guest of five on the gap or look for plant based alternatives. And I think that’s a really what’s really important. Growing trends like, for example, where I live in Atlanta, we have this crazy thing happened a month ago, which was the K f C trialled beyond chicken nuggets in Atlanta and it was insane. So it was one day trial in Atlanta and I went at 10 o’clock. We did some filming, and when I got there at 10 o’clock, there was traffic stopped in all directions. They had painted the KFC green. This is KFC. Mind you, KFC, Right? And there was you Thought they were giving out, like Beyonce tickets for free, inside or something. It was really insane. And they sold out in five hours. They said they were supposed to have two weeks worth of beyond chicken. So I think two weeks correct gave it away and 1/2 a day. They give it away that were coming to buy it, and it was five hours. And it just shows this, like, insane demand for plant based alternatives. Because people are like, I don’t I don’t want to eat this much meat. I don’t want to eat this meat. I don’t know where it comes from, but it comes from a plant. I can trust that. So there’s a real swing of these companies like KFC. On the way here I saw Duncan Donuts commercial showing beyond sausage in their breakfast patties. Now, so there’s a real trend in my book talks about that in the last chapter towards that plant based alternatives. And we just have a minute left. Regenerative organics. We can eat meat that is not raised for slaughter. You got a minute? Oh, that’s called. That’s not regenerative representative organ. That’s labbate based meat. So So. Labbate bases. Where is that what you’re talking about? Okay, labbate, get the book. Just going about regenerative Organic. Don’t listen to the chapter on regenerate but faster on lab, where you take a single cell from a feller, you grow it in a brewery kind of thing, and then you grow the burger that way, and this is really happening. And I tried duck of all things that that really brings it back to the beginning. And I thought, This is the future. And there’s more people that have been on, you know, been up in space that have tried clean meat as it’s called at this stage. But I felt so lucky, and I really felt I was peering into the future of a place where no animal has ever slaughtered. And no, no animal ever suffers in order to produce army awesome that doesn’t bring it full circle. She’s Leah, Gar says J R. C E. With an accent s, you’ll find her at Lia. Underscore compassion. The organization is at mercy for animals and mercy for animals dot or GE, lugthart says. Thank you so much for sharing. You Get the book, for God’s sake. Responsible. Oh no. Next week. Kickstarter Yes, Next week we have KICKSTARTER cofounder Yancey Strickler with his new book, This Could Be Our Future is his manifesto. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com by Coca Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Leibowitz is here is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Steiner. Brooklyn’s Thank you for that information. Scotty, be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day. Mmm. 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