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Nina Chanpreet Kaur: Trust, Mistrust and Betrayal
These by-products of our relationships with donors, bosses and peers can make your success or break your heart. Nina Chanpreet Kaur, organizational consultant and doctor of social problems, shares her research on trust.
Maria Semple: Why The Rich Give
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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week build driscoll he’s, a disaster non-profit executive, and he takes non-profit radio with him when he travels love that bill, you’ll find him in milton, massachusetts, or the twin cities in minnesota on twitter. He’s at b driscoll j r there must be an s r but he’s. Probably not on twitter. Congratulations, bill, and thank you very much for your support of non-profit radio. We’ve got a new online station joining us k s c r out of pomona, california welcome very good to have you with us and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of submarine dermatitis if i even heard rumors that you had missed today’s show trust, mistrust and betrayal the’s byproducts of our relationships with donors, bosses and peers could make your success or break your heart dahna chanpreet power core studies the issues around trust and why the rich give maria semple is back she’s, our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder she’ll walk us through the twenty fourteen us trust study of high net worth philanthropy on tony’s take two it’s amazing when charities come together and work together responsive by generosity siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks i am seed. They’re new york city event just this past weekend, and i’m very pleased that nina chanpreet core is with me in the studio. She’s, an organizational consultant and social psychologist by training doctor of social problems and educator her work sheds light on what underlies drives, motivates and manages effective change in the world. She was the founder of kitchen table community teaching cooking classes to understand how food can build trust across ethnicities and religions, nina lives for the tender moments of truth and compassion, clear seeing eyes, hands reaching out to help arms embracing in understanding. You can follow nina on twitter she’s at nina chanpreet nina chanpreet court welcome to the studio. Thank you so much for having me. Tony it’s. A big pleasure. Thank you. I love the you know the way you describe yourself as living for tender moments of truth and compassion. That’s very touching. Well, it’s, very important in the world we live in today, i think it’s difficult. To ah have the experience of trust. I mean, in many ways, there’s very little we can trust the ingredient labels on the food we eat and the information we’re getting from the media. It’s challenging to understand what’s really that’s not really what’s what we can trust andi, i think there’s a lot of wounded nous and i rolled around it interesting that you mentioned the first example you give his food labels well, always right, you’re you must read ingredient labels like i do, so i don’t try don’t i am one of those people going to bother? No, no, no, i’m very meticulous. I don’t trust any ingredient label myself. I’m writing a fiction i mean, michael short work of fiction, right? My my research on trust emerged out of my own personal experiences and in which i found myself not trusting anything or anyone and really having to examine that and understanding what it is like in an organizational system and what it is like internally as well, not trusting anyone or anything that that that that’s a cold place to be a lonely place. It’s a cold lonely i’m exaggerating, but but you understand you know we’re going to actually define i’m going to ask you later, you know, defined trust and betrayal and things, but i feel like i’m a person who trust at the outset before i even know somebody i sort of i trust until someone gives me a reason not to trust, um, i think i’m going down the wrong path. Well, seymour, about that okay, let’s, take a business interaction. I just on the strength of a phone call, i trust my intuition. Yeah, i’m going to use the word trust or rely on my intuition, and the person seems like a good person like they they they ah, can be. They will be someone who will follow through on their commitments, whatever commitments we’re talking about making together. And when they give me their word, i can rely on it. Um, someone you know and i draw these conclusions on the strength of maybe a ten minute phone call. Maybe i’ve never let’s use the example where lots of times i’ve never met the person face-to-face it’s. Just a phone call, and i feel that, uh, that i can i can count on them. I can rely on them. I can trust them. That’s just my my nature. Well, one of the parts about trust that i research was the unconscious elements of trust and what’s really going on underneath the surface. So while consciously we may say, oh, you know, i trust this person there’s always something else going on under the surface. And i think we do need to challenge the idealization of trust because buy-in doing the research that i kept breeding things that trust is so important. Trust is so important trust is so important, and mistrust is actually equally important i mean, scientific research and, you know, antibiotics and so many scientific inventions were based off of not trusting something and seeing something in the road saying, wait, let me let me rethink that. Do i really trust what i’m seeing? Let me let me study this right there’s so many inventions in the world, scientific and non scientific that were really premised on mistrusting or trying to look a little bit further. So the idea that trust is that simple or that it’s, the most important thing on dh is easy to achieve, i think it’s something that i challenge because i think it is more complex than that. Similarly, i think mistrust and betrayal can be equally important, if not more, in some cases. Okay, so something more going on? All right, i’m glad we have. Well, there’s always more going on. Isn’t there? Okay, i don’t know. I you think about these things and study them more than i do. You know, i gave you my my approach toward it. Let’s. Define some terms. So since you’re the researcher in this, what how do you define trust? Well, there’s it’s a challenging question to answer because i think it it’s so subjective. But i do think that trust is not it’s it’s, not some kind of stable, non changing experience. I think it has a sort of life of its own and is very subjective and is the product of conflict and collaboration and deep relationship building. Yeah. Excellent. I know you refer to it is a product or by product of relationships. Yeah, some of my earliest work experiences is a when i was in my twenties att that time, i was a teacher. We would sit down in these meetings and we were supposed to take on these very big tasks, and we’d sit there, and everyone was twiddling their thumbs, complaining about how nobody trusts anyone. Of course, that wasn’t the language that was being used, but it was really a cop out and a lack of accountability because we would have gotten there, we would have formed that trust had we been willing to dig into stuff that was very uncomfortable to confront our own incapacity and our own kind of heartbreak about our failure as teachers in a school system that is failing, and so our inability to do that or lack of accountability, which, you know, we were just kind of dancing around, and i’m sort of pretending, and i say we i mean, i was of course aware that this was happening, but unable to necessarily do something about it in a big way. So and i’ve seen this in another non-profits i currently work a teaching matters, which is a non-profit i’ve consulted other non-profit so i so i see this kind of expectation that we start with trust, but the truth is that we usually end with it. So what? Okay, i’m going to challenge myself then, since you’re challenging these notions what i’m calling trust maybe is naivete. Well, i have a child in the dark or something or so that’s. A very interesting association. I wouldn’t say naive a tae that that there’s there may be i mean, there’s always a judgment. I think when we use that word in it, i don’t know what it is for you. But i do think our our first experience of organizational life is in our family system. And so are first formative experiences around trust are really important to pay attention to because they have a rich information for how we currently experience trust and betrayal and the notions that we have in the associations that we have around that. So i do think thie i mean, not that it makes you a child, but i do think it’s important to look at that dimension of our relatedness around trust. Okay, this may be a conversation more for my therapist than then a special psychologist. Let’s see s o i’m going to presume that your definition of mistrust would be something similar. It’s certainly also a byproduct of relationships. And it was him. Or you would add about mistrust. Well, again, it it there’s there’s a different i guess the only way i can distinguish it is there’s a difference between mistrust and betrayal, i think, which is that i think trust and mistrust kind of live together. So if we’re if we think we have one underneath the surface, the mistrust is always there. If you think about any even personal relationships, you can’t have a professional ones many times we give trust, hoping that we won’t. We won’t have the experience of being betrayed or are having experience of mistrust so that there’s it’s always there and betrayal in particular is an incidents when agreements between two people, whether unconscious or not conscious, are our transgressed or broken or boundaries are really crossed on dh i mean and well, i guess there so i’m saying that there are so many other components to betrayal, but that would be a very basic way to look at it. Okay? Betrayal. Very harsh. That’s the word no eight years horse but but but that’s, the thing about the world we live in today’s, which is why does it have to be perceived so harshly? We have to go away for a couple minutes. Nina chanpreet corps. And i’m going to keep talking about the bite. These byproducts of your relationships, trust, mistrust and betrayal. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent let’s talk about your research, nina, how do you study these issues? Well, my, my, my approach to doing research is looking through a psychodynamic lens, so just to touch on what you said before about, is this a conversation more for my therapist and and and i and i think that that is something within non-profits the idea that well, we only have to deal with strategic plans and theories of change and how we run meetings and not deal with the softer aspects, the reality, the felt experience between people. And so i about a year ago, i went to a group relations conference, which is it’s, an experiential unconference looking at the group dynamic systems, dynamics, organizational dynamics, and i stumbled upon the topic of trust and betrayal that week, it was a week long conference, and it was a very powerful experience, one of the members on staff there i was dr jim krantz, and he has done a lot of research also about trust and betrayal and how leaders often times have to make very tough decisions and betray in the process of managing organizations and it doesn’t it doesn’t, and you’re right. I mean, when you said betrayal is harsh, it’s true, it it’s a very painful experience. I mean, i don’t mean to take away from the felt experience that can be debilitating in the face of betrayal, but but but but our ways of thinking about trust and betrayal is really what i researched and in the context of school. So i have i mentioned before, i am a consultant teaching matters, and i’ve worked for the new york city department education for the last ten years, and trust and betrayal are just the most the biggest issues happening in schools today because there are so many changes, and those changes aren’t being built well managed, and as a result, i was looking in these organizational systems, i working in the schools and seeing that the ideas about trust and betrayal, or were very for me a little bit strange because change itself for many teachers and for many even administrators was a form of betrayal, just just the fact of so many changes happening was produced and invoked a sense of betrayal, not probably not only among teachers, but among students, also parents, i looked mostly at the staff and what we’re looking at. We we’re looking at a school system that fundamentally is not meeting the needs of the student. And so what i research was, why is this happening? Why do we have a system? And by looking at a couple of schools this case, studies in which the needs of the children are being met and what i found was that there is a regression happening, there’s this idea that we be able to trust or or that change never happens this agreement within the staff systems of schools, and this expectation around things either not changing or being ableto have a certain level of comfort, right right now in school, so many things are being challenged, the contract, the pay scale, the curriculum, the standards. I mean, almost everything in a school right now is changing. But basically nothing has stayed the same. And so what i wanted to understand is, why have we why do why does that expectation exist? That nothing changed on my hypothesis about in what i research? Was that the expectation that there be some kind of idealized trust that doesn’t change is a form of regressed thinking in a way in and a way in which and when i say regression, what i mean is that the needs of the children are being met, but rather the needs of the staffer put first and that’s what that’s what’s going on, and it doesn’t mean i’m not trying to say teacher would be listening. This alarm bells might be going on. I’m not trying to say the needs of the staff are not important to the needs of the adults are not important, but the needs of the children are not coming first on di didn’t you know it’s interesting, i didn’t look at the experience of trust between teacher and student that is a more difficult thing toe look at just in terms of the, um i guess just the logistics in terms of running a study like that, so my research was both quantitative and qualitative, and i was looking at it from a particular psychodynamic lens, so i hope that gives you a little bit of context. Well, one of the other things i’ll say is that a couple of years ago i had a leadership mentor. Who said to me, you know the world is changing so quickly, you really do need to know yourself and have a firm sense of yourself. Because when things change, you don’t also want to be falling apart in the middle of it. And around the time when i started this research, something in my life happened that really challenged me and challenge my notions of myself and trust and other people on dh in it and i it really required me to have that strength. And so one of the one of the things whenever, whenever i talk about my research, it’s impossible also not to talk about what i personally went through to be able to learn and see more clearly in my research, right there was there was a personal journey there. So you want to expand on what the journey was in a minute or two? Well, you said a little bit about it before i mean, it is t now there was a personal journey, and then, well, not sure. Well, what i’ll say about it is just that i, like i had mentioned before, beginning when we were first talking was that i was looking at myself, kind of putting myself in a p tradition, noticing that i don’t trust really anything, including ingredient labels, which are very black and white and s o it was just sort of, you know, looking more carefully at my own internal and interest psychic world around trust and betrayal, and trying to understand what was going on for me, and it became very informative for how it was then seeing the world around me. Where do you think this expectation comes from? That that there won’t be changed and that things will remain constant? Well, i think it i think it comes from, um it come, it comes from living in a world in which our organizational systems, and in which our school systems are are not are not dealing with the what i will say unconscious or underneath the surface elements of things, and so eh? So i think when we are more conscious of our thoughts, beliefs and actions it’s very simple to to challenge that notion. But when we’re not doing that, it’s just it’s, it’s, it’s very easy to fall into that belief, it’s very counterintuitive because there is so much change day to day from from employment situation’s toa technology, tio new stop signs. And in new york city the new speed limit this week from thirty to twenty five there is so much change around us, but so the expectation seems really exactly it’s irrational. This is so this is it. So when we think about when i say unconscious is exactly what i’m referring to is the irrationality, and we and and this is something i learned from jim krantz, which is that we are really living in a myth of rationality in the world, when in fact, there’s a whole lot of irrationality, that’s running our organisations in our systems and particularly i would say, buy-in in startups non-profits where people who are running them not that this oh my god, it’s, just so much irrationality happening in corporations, but non-profits and social enterprises are very interesting to look at because they have less funding to invest in some of these other types of mechanisms that they may need in their organizations. It’s kind of you know what i experience a non-profits is sort of like you have to be bare bones, right? You can’t always invest in these other aspects of organizational life that are so critical and and what i’m referring to is this approach of looking at the irrationality and an organizational system and looking at group dynamics and really grasping it. So how are we going toe navigate through our relationships, understanding that there’s going to be disappointment and frustration and also elation? Yeah, i think what you just said is the first artist is having that expectation and and knowing with open eyes and an open mind that, you know, there will be mistrust, there will be betrayal. And why do i have this idealization that that might happen? Let me look at that and what’s going on with me that i’m not seeing the reality of what could potentially happen. I mean, i think that’s the first start, but the other piece of it is tio when we think about working and living in an organizational system is it is trying teo, to really know oneself to really reflect no, your triggers know your motivator is no what’s really important to you and to be able to gauge that about other people and see the connection between the individual, the group, the organization the system, the world around us, i mean, these these these connections are very important to make, and when we’re not making them, we’re really missing a big part of our a big piece of relationship building, and we may not be able to see what is necessary to see to build that trust so i don’t have hokey ideas about okay, sit around in a group and tell the truth for a while, and then then you’ve got trust me. I there’s so many people are very quick to sell you ideas that would form let’s. Go on a group retreat and we’re walking on hot coals. I think therefore i think that trustee or reform back, i hope it’s okay for me to say this, but i think that’s bullshit. So i know we’ve had worse, i think it’s i think it’s i think it’s much more complex. I think it depends on the type of organization, the history, the memory of that organization. How long it’s been around the dynamics of turnover in that group? There’s? Just so many things to think about. And when you’re on the funder the managerial end of things you you know leaders have to make decisions all the time, whether they’re conscious of it or not, that they that they are betraying our may need to betray in the service of the larger task of the company and the larger well being of the mission of the work. And i mean, i think a lot of funders don’t don’t know the quality of of the dynamics within systems and organizations, and if there’s one thing i could recommend, it would be i mean, i’m not in the business of giving advice, but i really do think the experience i went through was invaluable and going to a group relations conference, and particularly for funders and the managers and leaders of organizations to be ableto have that experience it’s very eye opening. So and there is one coming up in our area in january it sze called authority roll on accountability and organizations and it’s happening january fourteenth eighteenth it’s a residential experience experiential conference in the taba stock tradition. And dr jim krantz is the director where it’s andover, massachusetts so it’s not far from here, and i have the name of it again its authority um roll an accountability authority. Role and accountable the website is leadership twenty fifteen dahna oregon. So we’ll post it, you know, we’ll post it when you were so sure the link with you. Yeah, we put in the takeaways. Paige there’s a lot of variables that go into power and authority in relationships, and i think those air relevant in around these topics, the variables on something of whose wealthier who’s got more experience, those the ones that come to mind and i’m thinking, you know, i’m thinking like, fundraiser donor-centric gree more tony, i mean, i think we we again living under this either this myth of rationality, this this idea that we have leadership figured out we don’t you know, we would continually need to revisit these basic issues of authority roll power. You know, these very basic things that play into how we relate to one another and how our organizational systems function as a result of that. And i think that, you know, trust is not in itself it’s sort of is just one thing, but it’s, everything around it that either creates that air destroys it. It’s a very elusive thanks, yeah, little more book. Well, like when we’re talking about authority and power and i mentioned before accountability, you know, we were talking about the group dynamics. These things are kind of the the the world of the organizational life and that’s going to determine whether or not they the system’s ableto hold trust and individuals can form bonds of trust or not, and in my experience and this is something that’s challenging for me to even say, but in some of the school’s right work, it’s just buy-in what i found is sometimes it’s just not possible it’s not possible to form trust, and it can take a very long time. And it’s it’s, the reason why i have a hard time saying it is because it makes me feel debilitated or i’m like, how do we live in a world where it’s just at times not possible and many people may challenge me on that. But from what i felt and experienced, there are times when it’s just not possible, and it doesn’t mean that there’s no solution, but it can take it can take an organization where there is a significant trauma or an incident decades to rebuild e i mean it’s on and it goes much better when we’re looking at what we’re just talking about, we’re looking at these dynamics and we’re working on them and we were we continually see trust is a byproduct instead of having the expectation that it be there in order for us to do the work, we’re always going to be working under a kind of discomfort and a sense of constant change that that may not be ideal, but but we have to work wonder it to get to the trust we’re always working in a state of discomfort you’re saying i think so to some extent, i mean, i mean, when in my own work, you know, i love what i do. I really love the work i’ve done in schools over the last decade, and it brings me a lot of pleasure, but that, but but that feeling of pleasure is always there with a lot, with a mixed, other set of emotions around discomfort, uncertainty, fear, you know, questioning myself, questioning other people on dh in fact, what’s interesting so year, so a year since i started well, over a year now since i started doing that research what i have discovered in myself is, i trust myself more, but i continue to question myself, and i continue to reflect, and that has been, i think, a guiding light for me and being able to navigate so much complexity. Yeah, good, yeah. Lorts there aren’t probably enough very many people always questioning, always asking these bigger questions the way the way you’re going through not only your research but your life. It sounds like you, and the reason why i figured out how to do it is because i’ve met many people along the way who opened the door for me or open my eyes to something that said, hey, pay attention to this or, you know it it’s so much of my success is based on the success of other people who i have many form bonds of trust with, but but but but nothing and nothing in my life has ever remained constant or consistent, and so perhaps because i’ve had that experience just even from my childhood to today, it has given me a bit of a different perspective. What is it that you love about the work that you’re doing? Whether it’s consulting the research, what do? Well, i’m really driven by you know what? What you mentioned in the introduction, which is, which is how do you effectively impact change? And i’m i’m also driven by buy-in finding ways to continuously improve what we’re doing that so that’s my m o that’s what i really want to see in the world and so it just gives me great pleasure to be able to work with people and work and organizations where i can help them do that. And i can be part of that experience and figure figure something out for the wide world. So a lot of what i’m doing in schools, the reason i do the research is so i can look at it and take it back and say, okay, wait here. I found something this could apply across, right the applied research. This could apply somewhere else and making that making that connection, leveraging that change is really important to me. Um, you know, it comes from it comes really from my mother and the way that i was raised and she was very aware of global issues and whether or not i should have known what i knew about the world at the ages that i did is another issue, but just just having from her and seeing from her what’s happening in the world and wanting to understand kind of in this title that i wear the doctor of social problems, what’s going on and how you solve it. It is really what gives me a lot of pleasure, so i’m glad you credited your mom at the end. Well, of course, we have to leave it there, ok. Nina chanpreet corps last name spelled k es. You are. You’ll find her on twitter at nina chanpreet, thank you so much for having me, tony. My pleasure. I’m glad you know i’m glad you’re with me. Thank you very much. Generosity siri’s. They host five k runs and walks last sunday. I am seed, their generosity and why see, event over three hundred runners from nine charities came together in riverside park. They were from the center for urban community services. Creative artworks engender health, forrest, dale and other non-profits. One of them could have hosted their own event. They don’t have enough runners, but when the community comes together, then they can do incredible things together, raising over one hundred fifty thousand dollars for these nine organizations. And the fund-raising actually continues for another two weeks, so they’re not done. Generosity. Siri’s, dave lind, he’s the ceo. You can talk to him. Tell him that you came from non-profit radio he’s at seven one eight five o six. Nine triple seven or generosity siri’s, dot com. They have events coming up in new jersey, miami and philadelphia. I shot this week’s video in riverside park at generosity and y c because i was really moved by the great success of these nine charities coming together like i just said, they none of them could do it on their own. But coming together such enormous synergy and there’s just ah, terrific lesson about collaboration, whether it’s with your colleagues or other organizations, this week’s video is that tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday fourteenth of november forty fifth show of this year. Maria simple. You know maria simple she’s, the prospect finder she’s a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her website is the prospect finder dot com and her book is panning for gold. Find your best donorsearch prospects now she’s our doi end of dirt, cheap and free. You can follow maria on twitter at maria simple. Welcome back, maria simple. Hello there. How are you today? I’m doing very well. How are you? Just fine, thank you. Excellent. We’ve got the pleasantries out of the way. What’s what’s this high net worth study all about that you want to talk about? So i had an opportunity to hear about the results of the most recent high network study that was undertaken by us trusted it’s actually a partnership between us trust and the indiana university lily family school of philanthropy, and they do this study every other year. And i was attending a conference on friday for a f p in west chester, and i heard david radcliffe speak he’s, one of the managing director’s um, over at us trust, and so i thought it would make for some very interesting conversation because, of course, non-profits were always interested in knowing what what are the high net worth individuals in our communities thinking about as it relates to philanthropy in general, but about how we as organizations operate on dh? How can we leverage the results of this study to sort of improve or tweak what we’re doing is non-profit so it was very intriguing to me, and so as i was listening to him, speak and then afterward went in on the web and sought out the study itself. Um, i was thinking of this through the lens of a non-profit and what should they be gleaning from these reports? We should just cut you out and brought david on well, let’s, bring the principal in here. Well, well, you know what that would probably make for conversation, you know, how you know? Absolutely, but i think but, you know, i’m looking at it fromthe lens of if i were well, obviously, as a prospect researcher, i was very interested in this, right? So i’m always interested in what is going on in the psyche of the high net worth individual, but also through the lens, as i said of a non-profit executive or a non-profit boardmember what do you need to be keeping in mind as you’re approaching or thinking about approaching high net worth individuals for some major gift to really propel your organization’s forward? Important, i think, to recognize that the survey is based on self reported activity and thoughts around why we give why i give so there’s always that, you know, sampling bias. I’m not sure if that’s the right phrase, but there’s always a bias around self reported results versus something that’s observation all yeah, but what? You know, what was interesting was they really made sure that they tried to randomly sample across the entire united states on dh so in the end they’re in there. I understand. Just still self reported data. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Itself reported data and it has to do with their sentiments about they’re giving in the year twenty thirteen. So overall, i will say that i thought things came out to be pretty positive from the report. Things do seem to be on an upswing. So that was the overarching from me. Good news that i got out of the executive summary of the study. I did see that ninety eight percent of high net worth. And by the way, we should define our terms to they define high net worth as having a minimum of a million dollars net worth, excluding you home value on and having on an annual income of two hundred thousand dollars or more, right, that’s their definition of high net worth. All right, i saw that ninety eight percent of the high net worth individuals donate. Yes, yes. So that was that was indeed very good news as well as their average dollar amount has gone up. Um, since since the last study was done, so in two thousand eleven, their average gift was at fifty three thousand. Five hundred nineteen dollars and it’s actually increased twenty eight percent. It’s now up to sixty eight thousand five hundred eighty dollars. So again, good positive news. That’s probably reflecting our improved economy from two years ago. Right? Sort of expect that. But it is very it’s. Good news. Encouraging hyre encouraging also for the future that a lot of people think eighty five percent expect to give the same or mohr this year. Yes, yes, very ous. They look forward to what do they plan to do in the future? The overwhelming number of people said they planned to keep it at same levels or increased levels. So that was good to know that in their psyche, their not thinking about pulling back. Ah, they also think that non-profits are sort of a great solution to many of the problems and issues that we face in our community. So they do feel that they have a great deal of trust in the nonprofit sector to really harness and tackle some of the big issues that are going on right now. Okay, that you’re right. That’s also encouraging. What else you see in there? Well, i liked the fact that just over seventy eight percent of them gave unrestricted e-giving so that to me says as a non-profit as you’re thinking about your programs and so forth and how you know when you’re approaching foundations or corporations, and they want to give to some very specific programming as you’re approaching a non-profit i’m sorry, an individual their psyche is a little different, they don’t mind giving toe unrestricted e-giving they totally get the fact that you’ve got to keep the lights on and pay salaries, et cetera, so that takeaway was don’t forget to ask for that general operating support. Yeah, that is pretty startling. It’s that’s ah, considerably hyre number than i would have thought. But, you know, my insights could be completely off base as well, but that was yeah, pretty revealing to me that that high proportion of unrestricted giving also very encouraging. What did you say that? What did you say? The percentage was of unrestricted gift. Uh, the statistic that david shared with us with seventy eight point two percent okay, gave unrestricted among friends. We can call it seventy eight percent. Okay, um, i saw that volunteers give more. That seems intuitive if you’re spending time with the organization, you’re you’re more apt to give more to them than if you’re a non volunteer. That’s, right? Absolutely. So another takeaway, then, for a non-profit is teo not be afraid to first approach on high net worth individual and ask them for a gift of their time, as opposed to outright asking for a gift of cash? Because it is pretty darn likely. I think that if you can get them engaged at a very deep and committed level, it will probably stand to reason that the money will also follow what else you got there. So another interesting piece for me was that you have to really think about engaging both spouses so as you’re thinking about your approach to them, if they’re married, um, think about having the conversation with both people don’t leave the spouses out of the conversations around major gift because they are not making these decisions in a vacuum, and the spouse does appreciate very much being involved in that conversation on dh taking their overall interests and ideas toe heart. So they really wanna have that that level of, you know, involvement. So that would be a big takeaway i thought was make sure you’re not just talking to one person if they’re married, make sure both are at the table for the conversations. You know what i see that maria playing out badly often is at events, not where there’s an ask being being made the way you’re describing, but the, uh i see so often people working for the for the organization are talking to the predominant donor in the in the couple, whether it’s, the wife or the husband and sort of minimising or excluding fromthe conversation, the other person it’s really offensive, but i see that a lot. And so how does the how does the other person feel they feel marginalized? They they feeling like the organization thinks they’re insignificant, and i think that has a lot of repercussions. Yeah, you know what, you’re absolutely right. I’ve noticed the same thing and, you know, one way around that for an organisation is just to be a little bit more strategic, you know, in deciding all right, you know, in advance who’s going to be an attending a an event, so why not make sure that you leverage your board and keep volunteers that will be at this event to have them understand the key couples that will be there so that if a conversation is happening, you know, with, say, as you called it, the predominant donor and make sure that somebody else is, you know, trying to at least engage the other person in the conversation so that there emotions are taken into account well, just to be a decent person, you know, talk to talk, to both, talk to both the guys or the both the women or the guy in the women, you know, talk to everybody, don’t you know, just ah, yeah, i think we need a lot. More sensitivity to the fact that it’s not, you know, it’s, not all about just who gives and who volunteers and the other person we should ignore. I see that i see a lot, ok, but this was one of the other kind of along those, you know, staying on that line for a minute. One of the other interesting pieces that came out of that was that as i said, you know, you you want to make sure you’re taking both people into account. But then one piece of this study said that women are more likely to be the sole decision makers nearly three times as many women as men. Twenty percent versus seven percent are the sole decision maker. So and i’m pretty sure that us trust has also done a study in the past around women and philanthropy, so that might be something interesting to take a closer look at as well. But don’t forget to talk to the woman in the couple, that is for certain. Yes, if the if the guy is the predominant donor. But talk tio, talk to the whole family, you know? I mean, just be just just talk to people. Be decent. That’s all yeah. Okay, um, i thought it was interesting some of the breakdowns of why people give i like that there’s a very good chart about personal motivations for giving. Yes, you’re right. And i don’t have that one in front of the thing that stood out was that altruism. I was ranked highest and something that you would expect to rank high did not, which was the tax benefits ranked almost close to the bottom. So you’re a cynic you would you expected text to rank? I see i didn’t, but i work in plant giving, and i know that taxes don’t motivate most most people, but you’re okay, your little, your little more cold hearted than i am that’s. Interesting? No, i just i think i would have expected from the study that a tax incentive would have been ranking higher than it did on the overall results have been surprised to see how low it ranked it was, it was one third actually, to be exact, thirty four percent said that receiving a tax benefit motivates them to give and what you mentioned the altruism, personal satisfaction rank very high, seventy three percent said personal satisfaction. And when you believe that your gift can make a difference, that was comparable seventy four percent, a lot of a lot of altruism, you’re right. What else was interesting to you? I thought it was interesting to see why wealthy donors actually stopped e-giving so when they were asked why why they had stopped supporting an organization, they said that receiving solicitations to frequently or being asked for an inappropriate amount. Forty two percent of the people said that was the reason why they stopped. Thirty five percent said they had you there change their philanthropic focus or decided to support other causes. But i thought it was very interesting. And so, you know, that just goes to really reiterate why, as a researcher, you need to think about what is that very targeted? Ask? We can make let’s ask less less frequently, perhaps, but let’s make that ass very much tied to what that family wants to be able to do in terms of making a deep impact. Impact was also a word that that was throughout this study, i thought, because fifty over three fifty three percent of the people said that they monitor or evaluate the impact of their charitable gift. So if you can really tie closely together, i think how often you ask how much you’re asking for and then clearly demonstrating and stewarding that gift. Well, i think that’s gonna have good results. We have to go away for a couple of minutes. When we come back, maria and i will keep talking about the us trust high net worth study. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and a a me levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation, top trends and sound advice that’s tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m lawrence paige, no knee author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. I still wish lawrence would pronounce his name panjwani sounds so much nicer than paige an oni i don’t know if i told him that when he was on. I don’t think i did. I think it only said it behind his back on the ship, but nobody listens to this show, so it doesn’t make a difference. All right, maria sample. What else was interesting in there, too? I have a few things, but let’s throw to you. What did you find? What else? Well, i did not see this printed anywhere in the report, but one of the things that david said at the conference was he really encouraged the non-profits to have a very succinct one page document about the organization with the legal name spelled correctly so that they can pass this document along to their attorneys for consideration in wills and bequests. So i thought you would like that tip in particular, and i modify it. One piece i would include. Besides, the legal name is the federal tax i d. Number yes. I like gross amounts of precision. Yeah, yeah. He said that, you know, make it as absolutely clear, it’s possible? Because, you know, and i’m sure you have seen in your work problems can arise if things are not properly spelled out. So i thought that was a really good tip that he shared with the audience. There’s another reason for doing it. And that is to make it easy for people to. And i’m sure this is what david thinking is they david is thinking easy to give to the organization by including it in your will. Your life insurance, maybe some other beneficiary designation document without having to go to the organization to ask what’s your legal name. What? Your tax? I d number what’s your address, you know, so just making that ah, easy process for donors. Exactly. On dh that’s. Why he wanted it to be. You know what? Go thanked one page. I thought it was interesting where the dollars are going. The high net worth dollars mostly to education. Just mostly education. Yes, they place a very high ranking on education. And that percentage did grow as well. From twenty eleven to twenty thirteen so they did feel that that was a key policy priority on dh. There were, you know, right behind that where poverty, health care and the environment. Yeah. Now that’s ah, beneath education that’s where this diverges from what atlas of giving and giving, yusa would would say, is the next most popular e-giving which is religion in the no studies. But here religion was number five durney beneath beneath like you’re saying social social services, basic needs beneath arts and beneath health. Then came religion. Yeah. And it could very well be because of the population, the demographics of the population that was actually being surveyed here. So, you know, while atlas of giving and giving us a look more broadly across all income levels since this was focusing so specifically on that hyre network population, you can see that you know what? That level things air skewed a little bit differently. Well, they’re coming again. They can afford to buy themselves into the afterlife. They don’t have to give to charities to get there. Maybe that’s it, i think, to the benefit of other non-profits other other terrible missions. What else you got there? Well, you know they’re clear expectations that they have set out for the non-profits and again, you know, comes back to two to measuring impact. I can’t stress enough how much i thought as david was speaking, then i subsequently went and read the executive summary how non-profits really need teo get very clear, um, about stewardship so important, i mean, i know that i’m here to talk about prospect research, you know, that feeds into getting the gift, but then keeping those people engaged once you’ve got them engaged with your organization toe, let them slip away because you’re either asking too frequently or ass skiing for not the right amounts or you’re not just simply telling your stories about keeping them engaged is just such a huge missed opportunity. How did how did they gauge that from this study? Well, they were they were talking about their expectations and how they expect to be having there is the impact of their gifts, how they monitor their giving, so a lot of them are actually measuring the impact they’re giving by directly engaging with the organization at eighty percent of the people are so again, it goes back to that asking them t be volunteering with you stay as close to possible with the mission of the organization so that they’re able to continue seeing the impact that you’re doing so don’t only demonstrate that impact through letters and and email and social media, but make sure that you’re engaging them to really have direct contact with the organization on dh reporting on impact for those that want that reporting? Absolutely yeah, i mean, there are going to be that the people who really want to see it in, you know, in that number’s format, you, they want to see the reports and so forth and that’s great, you’ve got to do that. You’ve got to do those outcome measurements and so forth, however, at that high net worth level, if you can keep them engaged as well through volunteerism. It’s going to bode very well going forward for you. Okay, we have just about a minute left. What what’s a final point you’d like to make again having that one page document don’t ignore thie, you know, because a couple aa in its entirety a cz decision makers understanding what motivates them, keeping them engaged with your organization, getting them to volunteer more often on dh asking for appropriate amounts so that does involve prospect research. It involves understanding where they’ve given what other levels and where you know what motivates them. What is it that they want to give to within your organization? She’s, our regular contributor in prospect research and she’s the prospect finder. You’ll find maria simple at the prospect finder dot com and on twitter at marie. A simple thank you so much, maria. Thank you. Real pleasure to have you back. Thank you. Next week got mohr informative interviews coming from fund-raising day. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it at tony martignetti dot com generosity siri’s good things happen when small charities work together. Seven one eight five o six. Nine triple seven or generosity siri’s dot com our creative producer was clear meyerhoff sam liebowitz is on the board as the line producer shows social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules this music is by scott stein you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Sorry, i couldn’t do live listener love pre recorded this week. But i love our live listeners and podcast pleasantries as well. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is, we’re here that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.