Tag Archives: philanthropy

Nonprofit Radio for May 17, 2021: Your Partnerships With FGWs

My Guest:

Esther Choy: Your Partnerships With FGWs

First Generation Wealth creators have different values and mindsets than those who inherited their wealth. And FGWs far outnumber the inheritors. Esther Choy’s research will help you understand these folks and how to build valuable relationships with them. She’s president of Leadership Story Lab.

 

 

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[00:00:10.64] spk_2:
Hello and welcome

[00:01:47.84] spk_1:
To Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer with lateral epic and colitis if you gave me the elbow and told me you missed this week’s show your partnerships with F G W s first generation wealth creators have different values and mindsets than those who inherited their wealth and F GWS far outnumber the inheritors Esther choice research will help you understand these folks and how to build valuable relationships with them. She’s President of Leadership Story lab and tony state too, in praise of donors like my dad, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s a pleasure to welcome to nonprofit radio Esther choi she is President and Chief story facilitator at leadership Story Lab, teaching storytelling to institutional and individual clients or searching for more meaningful ways to connect with their audiences. She’s a contributor for Forbes Leadership Strategy Group and you may have seen her quoted in leading media outlets like the new york Times and entrepreneur dot com. Her practice is at leader Story lab and leadership Story lab dot com. Mr choi welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:50.29] spk_0:
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:06.24] spk_1:
It’s a real pleasure. Welcome. Um you you have you have some new research out that we need to, we need to talk about transforming partnerships with major donors. What are, let’s let’s just jump right in and why don’t you explain what F. G. W. Folks are? And uh tell us a little about your research that you did with these F. G. W folks

[00:03:57.54] spk_0:
sgw folks? Well, I recently published as a research report um and lucky enough to have a really, really good exposure, such as the one you mentioned in the new york times. And uh, there are a lot of surprises about the folks that we generally in the broader society, just just overly sort of broad and call them the rich people or the wealthy folks or the high net worth individual or the ultra high net worth individuals as if they all belonged in this model is a group that they all think act believe in the same way. And so I got curious about them after I’ve taught uh, in this major gift strategy program at Kellogg for awhile, wondering why are these people so hard to get What, uh, because so many nonprofits is doing amazing and moving and important and urgent work that no one else is doing. So why is it so hard to reach them? So I dug further end. Uh, did a lot of homework and I interviewed 20 very, um there are ultra high network folks and I just ask some questions about how did they get you their wealth? What is it like? Um are there any downsides too well having wealth and so on and so forth, and focusing on philanthropy. Um so this report, I can talk about anyone number of ways. So you tell me, what do you, what do you want to most learn about these first generation wealth creators? Well, let’s

[00:04:01.27] spk_1:
let’s start with how big a proportion they are of the of the wealthy,

[00:05:24.64] spk_0:
wow, I am glad you start. That’s the starting point. Um that’s one of the biggest surprises that I’ve learned because they are At least 68 Of the, this massive group that we call wealthy, ultra high net worth. They are at least 68 of them earn their wealth instead of inherited. That’s a big, big difference between inherited wealth versus earned wealth and that means they’ve traveled a entire social economic class That they did not grow up with. And so some of them, very few of them really make the majority of their wealth in their thirties or even 40s. Most of them are in their 50s and 60s. So we’re talking about full on grown adults with Children and maybe even grandchildren by the time they become um this wealthy. So it’s a very interesting transformation of your life, your community, your social circles, the things that you worry about Or not worry about all happen around starting from the point of 50s and 60s.

[00:05:42.34] spk_1:
All right, So, so they’re at least two thirds, but maybe even a little more than two thirds of all the, all the wealthy folks. The way we would describe as you’re saying, high net worth, Ultra high net worth. These are these are 2/3 of those folks,

[00:05:46.24] spk_0:
correct at least. And it’s actually you

[00:05:49.01] spk_1:
said 68%.

[00:05:51.10] spk_0:
68%. I picked the most conservative number, but I’ve read elsewhere too. And put that to um somewhere 80,

[00:06:14.44] spk_1:
80%. Okay. Alright. 800. And and everybody you interviewed is first generation wealth. That’s that’s where your research was correct on those folks. Okay. So let’s get to know them a little bit. Um, your research has uh, a nice chart. I like, I like pictures of the first thing I look for in books and pictures. Uh, simple, simple. You’re you’re burdened with the host with a simple mind. Um, but you do have these, these pillars of wealth generation. So let’s describe these folks, not, not not all three. I mean, people are just gonna have to get the research, you know, I’m not going to quiz you, I’m not quizzing you on block number four in line three on the no we’re not doing that. I don’t want to go like word by word because people got to get the research. Which which is that? Leadership story lab dot com. Right.

[00:06:47.04] spk_0:
Alright, okay. You can download,

[00:07:07.34] spk_1:
yeah, there’s an executive summary and you can download the full report as well. Right? So leadership Story lab dot com for the full thing, for the full, for the full study. Um But let’s get to know these folks a little bit these these first generation wealth creators. Um you start by saying they’re understated. There may be even humble, are they are they to the point of being humble and modest,

[00:08:01.84] spk_0:
humble and modest and they have a hard time. They have a hard time with the, with the word wealthy, they understand the size of their assets, They understand um what they are capable of affording, which is basically anything, but they have a hard time with the label wealthy and um they oftentimes think of in regard and never really left their middle class roots and that’s the majority of them come from very middle class, you know, they don’t want to be flashy, nor did they enjoy flashy things that attract attention. So um you know, make no mistake, they are part of things that are very um you know, shiny and, and sophisticated and, and high quality, but it’s not who they are inside. So that’s one thing to keep in mind is that they are very understated themselves and they often appreciate other people as well as other things that are understated.

[00:08:31.64] spk_1:
You make the point a couple of times of saying that they don’t they don’t identify themselves as wealthy even though they know that they fit into that category, correct? Okay. Um so you sat down and you you met these folks, you, well maybe not face to face, but you you spoke with these people or couples or how did how did that all work?

[00:09:12.34] spk_0:
Yeah, So I did all the interviews with in partnership with the research firm And it’s all done virtually because it was done in 2020. Um There was one noted exception um where I was invited to her home uh and I met all her kids and her husband’s and you know, it’s just like the whole family in the background and it’s kind of funny to talk about her family while her family was around, but for the most part it was done um through zoom One through calls and then um there are four people, so two couples. Um I interviewed them at the same time together and uh the length just got doubled. Um you know, it’s usually 50, 50 minutes to an hour and with a couple um we talked for over an hour and a half.

[00:09:34.84] spk_1:
All right. All right. How do you, I’m interested in some of the details. How do you reach out to these folks? How do you, how do you get their

[00:10:58.44] spk_0:
attention? It’s really hard. So the first thing we mentioned um in one of the four pillars is their understated right? They don’t identify with the word wealthy. They certainly don’t make big advertisement to the world that they are wealthy. And so to find them and to get them to agree to speak on record, although it’s anonymous. Um and to get them to open up and talk about money and wealth. It’s really hard so I have to rely on a couple of key relationships. Um One is through one of my alma Mata um texas A. And M. University. And my friend and colleague, the ceo of texas A. And M. Foundation help me recruit a few quite a few of these interviewees. Uh My business partner who also happens to be a uh trustee at the University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati foundations and um through a couple of my own resources as well as my research firms. So 20 for qualitative studies is you know, sufficient. It’s definitely not a lot. 20 people doesn’t sound like a lot but 20 of these type of people and get them to talk about very sensitive topic. Um was it took quite a bit just to get them to agree to talk to me.

[00:11:13.64] spk_1:
Go. Aggies.

[00:11:14.34] spk_0:
Thank

[00:11:18.54] spk_1:
you. Absolutely. Um And what was the median income for these 20 folks families?

[00:12:25.64] spk_0:
So um at this point I don’t think their income is very meaningful any anymore. So where I am uh by median I would refer to their uh their their networks. So the net worth the median range is 50 to 80 million. Um Although um the low I would put it in the low teens, the highs I would put them in 100 and 50 just give you give you give our listeners a sense as well of what we’re talking about like by Well you know millions is like a lot of Zeros. You know at some point it’s just like my mind can’t keep them all in one place. Um according to the Fed in 2020 the top one of the U. S. Um Folks have 11 million. So these are all um uh you know sort of the top 1%. Er And um

[00:12:35.44] spk_1:
If for the one even right right mid teens to 50 or so was was roughly the median net worth.

[00:13:07.24] spk_0:
Exactly exactly. But then if you think about the one of 300 million people in the us That’s three million 3 million people. And that is about the size. If you put them all in one city all in one location there just below new york city, just below new york, just below Los Angeles but just above the city of Chicago. Mm So three million people. That’s a lot of people.

[00:13:27.04] spk_1:
Okay. And And you estimate conservatively that of those 3,068 our first generation they earn their wealth versus inherited. Okay. All right let’s go back to get to know these folks a little bit um uh their entrepreneurial, no surprise but tell us what, what does that mean for the way they think about themselves and the way they might think about uh, their philanthropy.

[00:15:37.94] spk_0:
Yeah, so in the most literal sense, they are were entrepreneurs. That’s how they created, most of them created their wealth and with a few um less than 20 of them had a very lucrative corporate careers. And entrepreneurs also means that it’s a mindset, it’s the lenses in which they apply all things through. Um So it could be the way um that they would like their Children or grandchildren to approach um you know, if I wanted to study abroad even um and you know, I need additional funding. Well, how much you think about it as what untapped opportunities might there be out there for you in this country that you want to study, but it’s not currently fully leveraged. Um but entrepreneurial could also means to, as they think about non profit, as they really think about how they want to leave their social impact and how they want to fully make sure that their philanthropic dollar is put to good use that also applied and, um, compatible with their middle class values. So, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s up and down side, right? Um, sometimes something just can’t be measured. Sometimes nonprofits are run by people who are philanthropic reminded and socially minded and they don’t necessarily have the same sort of business acumen as, as, as well as, um, fear competitiveness, um, that these donors tend to have an embody. And so the downside of having that entrepreneurial mindset is that sometimes it creates clashes. And if, you know, at the very least disagreements on, is this really the best use of the precious dollars that your organizations have? Um, sometimes there’s no straight black and white answer yes and no. Um So um that’s what I mean by entrepreneurial

[00:15:52.04] spk_1:
And what else what comes next in those four

[00:16:03.84] spk_0:
pillars? So the third is free and I truly it seems like a very simple no nonsense and and and we’re like oh we live in a free society. But I think the truth of the matter is that a lot of people are not free, they are not free to pursue whatever they want, they are under certain professional career obligations or financial pressures

[00:16:22.84] spk_1:
and they are a lot of options.

[00:17:44.94] spk_0:
Yeah, exactly. And that’s why a lot of career counselors ask mid to even late career folks, you know, what would you do if money is not an issue? Right? I’ve heard that questions asked a lot in Korea counseling because a lot of people are under that pressure. But these F. G. W. S. They are not and for them it’s often times for the first time is, wow, now it’s not a theoretical questions anymore, I really don’t have to worry about money. Okay so now what what do we do? And so um a lot of them pursue experiences, a lot of them want the same thing for the Children and grandchildren. Um They uh pursued 3rd 4th 5th careers that they’ve always are interested, intrigued by, know that they’re not very good at and know that they probably may not may or may not be able to make a ton of money with. Um But they pursue it anyway, so it’s that sense of freedom. Um that I think a lot of people as long as they have to still worry about saving for retirement, saving for making sure you can pay your mortgage and things like that. It’s really hard to wrap your mind about. And then these folks are just sort of Mhm fully embracing,

[00:17:56.94] spk_1:
may want their Children to understand that having a wealth of options doesn’t just come, it comes from hard work and and devotion, which is what they devoted their decades too, so they want their Children understand that, that does just doesn’t just happen for everyone.

[00:19:40.94] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m glad you bring up Children across all 20 of them, even though the ages ranges from Late 40s to a few 80s, um they all worry about their kids even though their kids have all grown up or they have worry about their kids or have regrets about uh the way that they raised the ways that they pass on their assets uh to their kids. And the funny thing is that they did not tell me oh I have so and so um I really can confide in or I know these uh professional resources uh that I can go to and um all of them are just kind of like, I hope I’m doing the right thing. In fact, I know I haven’t done the right thing, but then talking to piers surprisingly was not an option across any of them. And so although they’re free, but this taboo topic of money and wealth have prevented them from really searching for the right answers at the time when decisions had to be made. So Children, it’s a constant universal worries, especially for people with wealth. Um, we’ve seen from studies after studies that for example, substance abuse tend to affect um, Children from families with means disproportionately higher than those who are not from a family with means.

[00:20:45.54] spk_1:
I wonder if there’s some tension for them because they’re not comfortable talking to those who inherited their wealth or even just other wealthy people because they don’t they don’t identify that way, but then they’re not comfortable talking to those folks that they knew when they were struggling in their careers and before they’re they’re great success there, great financial success will qualify that because success can take lots of, have lots of different levels to it, but before the great financial success, because they, like, they don’t want to, they don’t want to appear overbearing to their non wealthy friends who they know from high school and college and, you know, maybe professional school or you know, whatever. Uh so there they, like, caught in the middle, like, they don’t have valuable personal relationships to, to leverage and count on in in in times like when they’re questioning what, what to do with Children and, you know, sort of existential questions like that.

[00:22:44.14] spk_0:
Yeah, so this is another downside of being entrepreneur. Um another way to call someone very entrepreneur is what, you know, he’s he has a can do spirit, she has a can do spirit. So if you can do, you can do it yourself, you don’t need to count on other people to help you, you can pull yourself up by the boot strap. So uh that’s one and two is again, the subject of wealth, it tends to be taboo. Um in fact, the broken institute economist Isabel Saw Hill made this really app as observation and she said that people rather talked about sex than money and money than class. So first generational wealth creators have travel across classes and so that makes it really hard for them to say, you know, I don’t know what’s the right way if we do, if we travel, is it wrong for us to buy business class or first class and what are your middle class friends going to say? Poor tony poor Esther you’re struggling with questions like should you travel in business versus first class and it’s not something that a lot of people, first of all empathize with, and second of all have the right context to give sound councils and what about professional um coaches and um counselors and whatnot? I didn’t actually covered in the report, I chose to exclude it and just in the in favor of focusing on nonprofit and fundraising. But their experience with uh wealth management advisors are very mixed because it’s an industry that has a lot of conflict of interest. There are some really, really good

[00:23:04.54] spk_1:
let us in on something that didn’t make the report, this is great not profit radio you gotta let us in on the, on the, on the back story. What? Say a little more about these, the trouble they’ve had the mixed results, mixed results, I’m sure some have been, some results were fine, some relationships are fine, but so a little more about what didn’t make the final report there.

[00:24:40.84] spk_0:
Um I cut a whole section of just because I think it might be detrimental to getting people to read it when it’s beyond a certain length. So this whole section that I cut off was on um, how they view advisors, um, counselors and things like that. And indeed, you know, uh, two words to describe the entire section is that it’s very mixed. Um, some have great experience, some on the other end of the extreme is um, they thought the people they interacted with is just uh, the advice weren’t very good or too obvious or that again, they can do it themselves. Why do I need to pay you so much money to tell me something I know already. And uh, and, and by the way, that is somewhat parallel to their experience with uh, fundraisers. So I don’t want to just put the hammer on uh, wild advisors and and and um, tax advisers and whatnot. Um, because this idea that, oh, we know you’re wealthy, we know what you can do with your money, either for the benefit of yourself as well as for me or my organizations. That really changed the dynamic of the conversations as well as the services, how services rendered and that’s to their relative to their expectations. Um, so that’s why it’s not very helpful I think just to come off and um list a bunch of things that they’re not happy with without being able to say what would be helpful. So I just removed the whole section and also in favorite of keeping it readable length.

[00:32:20.44] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You remember them, you’ve been hearing about them, the biden tax plan, the infrastructure plan, immigration. Is there anything in there in these continuing conversations that you’d like to be heard on? Anything in their impacting your work? Anything in there that you’re expert on and you need to be heard. You want to be a trusted source on something that’s under constant conversation and it’s in the press turn to has the relationships that can make that happen. They are a trusted source by lots of media outlets. They can get you heard on the subjects that you know best and that your expert on let them use their relationships to help you because your story is their mission. Turn life into dot C. O. It’s time for Tony’s take two In praise of donors like my dad. My dad is 88 years old and he gives to dozens of nonprofits a month. I have seen the checks that he writes now, 88 years old. So you know, he’s not doing online giving, he’s not doing online bill paying. He writes cheques for those of you not acquainted with checks. They come with check registers. That’s a little booklet that you can write all your checks in. So you can reconcile month after month, right? It’s an old process, but For an 88 year old, it’s the way it gets done. He’s outgrown check registers. He writes so many checks to charities each month that he just keeps a running list on sheets of paper. And there are so many check entries on each sheet that the sheets are curling up a little bit. When the sheet is complete, it’s almost like parchment. It’s curled up a little bit because there’s three columns Of checks in on each page. I don’t mean each check takes up three columns. I mean there are three columns of checks on an 8.5 by 11 page. He’s got a he’s got the check number, his own abbreviation of the name of the charity and then the amount and uh, he’s got the date, it’s got the date in there too. And so that’s how he reconciles. Uh, so yeah, dozens of checks to charities per month that, you know, that’s a kind of giving that I only and experience with through him because I do plan to giving, which is on the other end of the spectrum of giving. Um, he certainly doesn’t consider himself a philanthropist, but he’s very, very supportive of charities and and how does he choose the ones? Well, first of all they find him, I don’t know how the list exchanges or sales work, but charities come to him. So they send him U. S. Mail. He’s got no email, he’s got no cell phone. Um We’ll get to vetting in a second. So charities right to him. And he read the materials he scrutinizes, he decides whether he thinks the work is merits, his giving and something that he wants to give to, something he’s interested in. And then he goes to the Better Business Bureau. Why is giving alliance report on charities? And why does he choose that one? Because it’s in print, there’s no going online to charity navigator or any other rating service. Uh, that’s online. He goes to the print the booklet. So Better Business Bureau and if he likes your work and you’re listed in the Better Business Bureau, giving booklet rated well in there. Then he writes a check and you probably, these charities are writing to him again a month later and there’s a good chance he’s writing a check a month later, et cetera. It’s a very iterative process. There’s no real learning that goes on. I can’t say there’s a feedback and improvement part to the iterations. But, uh, the cycle continues. You know, we need people like that. These small donors. That’s a, you know, some people prefer to say modest donors. I’m not commenting on my dad’s or anyone else’s character. When I say small donors, it doesn’t mean that he’s a small person. Just he gives small gifts. So I avoid the euphemism, I just say he’s a small donor. We need small donors like this. You know, they he’s loyal. Once you, once you meet his threshold and it’s not very high what I described, then you’ve got him for a long time. Don’t try to upgrade him though. He’s not going to become a major donor and he’s not gonna put you in his will. I’ll see that that part. So forget the planned gift. That’s not happening. No, but he’s not, he doesn’t think that way. He’s never gone deeper with any charity that he gives to the way I’m describing. We need folks like that. We need the, uh, $10, $15 $20 donors. And in some respects, he’s a recurring donor. I mean, he is a recurring donor. He’s just is not part of your monthly recurring program that’s set up automatic, you know, the automatic debits credits. Um, he’s not, he’s not one of those, but he’s he’s a recurring donor. So in praise of donors, like my dad, it’s very interesting to watch him. We’ve talked about his process. Yeah, We need folks like that. And here we are talking about future, um, or wealthy, wealthy folks. I’m sorry, first generation wealth. Here we are talking about. And my dad, is that the, well, these folks, I would put plan giving at the far end of the spectrum. So these folks are near there, but my dad’s at the, on the left side of the spectrum. We need them all. We need all these donors. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for your partnership with F. G. W. S. All right. Finally, these folks are lone rangers. What does that

[00:35:39.44] spk_0:
mean? Um, we touch upon it a little bit where we, um, you know, they are part of this new class of wealth. They’re like immigrants in some way. By the way, I really wanted to recommend a few books, uh, not just mine, um, that really helped me round out my understanding. So this whole idea of um, think of first generation wealth creators as immigrants. Um, they have migrated from a different class altogether and enter into this world where the beliefs, um, the values and oftentimes even language, um, or foreign to them and although it’s great, this is paradise. Um, they often find that there are tricky conditions. Some even would say because their native born Children and grandchildren, um, don’t understand the privileged privileges that they were born and then we’ve gotten accustomed to you. Um, and the cliche or the adage or however you wanna wanna wanna call it shirtsleeves, to shirtsleeves, rice paddies to rice patties, wealth does not last past three generations and they know that. And so when you think about this special Land of Paradise again, by the way, this is uh, I learned it through the book called uh strangers in Paradise by James Grubman. Um, their need of born Children and a grandchildren, statistically speaking, will be deported back to harsher land where the first generation have migrated from. And um, and here’s the kick tony I, I just, I just found it fascinating and this is why I can talk about this, you know, forever and ever mismanagement of their wealth, taxes and inflations and bad investments. All of those are more just the natural delusions from, you know, the couple, two Children, two grandchildren, right? All of those reasons are reasons for wealth, not being able to last past three generations, but you will probably, I’ve never found anyone cases for example, or family where the story basically is, well, grandpa and grandma gave it all the way to charity and left nothing to us. That’s why we’re poor again, you know, that just doesn’t happen. And so what my I think what I really want to focus on, I think the opportunities for non profit is that what might there be an um different way to think about the conversations that you have with these donors where you help them solve a problem or maybe many problems and then you also help yourself um solved the problem. By the way, I’m getting like, way, way, wait, this is a problem when you we have no script. I’m getting like way away from the lone ranger questions. I’m going to bring

[00:35:49.36] spk_1:
you back, but I

[00:35:51.31] spk_0:
but I think I’m getting to the whole

[00:35:58.84] spk_1:
profit radio No, no, you’re not. You’re, what you’re saying is still valuable. Don’t don’t 2nd guess yourself. What

[00:36:34.33] spk_0:
I’m, what I’m getting at is that it’s lonely to be first general. It can be lonely to be a first generation immigrant. Mhm. Except that most immigrants have somehow found other immigrants and they talked, they share notes that commiserates, they help each other out. But um, first generation wealth creators are particular type of immigrants where for all the reasons that we’ve talked about, they don’t actively look for help nor was real quality help readily available.

[00:37:15.83] spk_1:
Okay, interesting, really fascinating analogy analogizing them to immigrants. Um, did you, did you put any of them together uh, since you met 20 of them and got to know them? So these folks that are, uh, feeling loan, feeling loan, I don’t know, lonely, I’m just using what I’m not saying, they’re lonely in their lives. Maybe they are, but they’re lone rangers. Did you, did you put any of these folks together? Say look, you know, I met I met so and so like two or three weeks ago. And she was saying the same thing that you’re saying, you know, one of the two of you talk or would you be interested? You know, did you put any folks together to help them? Uh commiserating at least maybe even help. Maybe at best help each other.

[00:37:21.08] spk_0:
I

[00:37:23.32] spk_1:
think I

[00:37:44.63] spk_0:
Would I would if I were asked, but with these 20, because of the promise of confidentiality, um, I don’t share their names or contact with anyone, but um, I have done webinars since then where I was asked. So how do you find these people? And then if if they asked me then I will help.

[00:37:49.37] spk_1:
Okay. Okay, well I’m like a connector. So I was thinking, you know, if I could get her permission, would you like to talk to her? Because the two of you are saying things that are really identical and maybe together, you could help each other

[00:39:15.72] spk_0:
as well as having very similar questions. And this is where I was getting at the opportunity part because they’ve asked questions like how much and when should I pass my asset to my kids and grandkids, It’s dealt with by, um, with wealth advisors on a very case by case basis. And I think that should be, that’s the way it should be done. But what’s really sorely missing is how do other families handle this right to your questions of? Well, there are other people like me, what do they do? Because they’re in my boat? Um, so as well as questions like how do I get in sync with my spouse? Um, and then they also have questions on like, how do you truly vet? um, a non, a non for profit, you know, and how do you help? Not my, you know, the nonprofits that you support become more efficient and they are aware that not coming off as because I’m a donor, I give money and um, you should do what I tell you to do. Um, things like that, you know, that productive relationship with nonprofits. So there are endless questions like this that they can talk about, not just commiserated, although commiserating is great too.

[00:39:49.42] spk_1:
All right. I don’t know. I think you could be a connector, a major connector. Um, and I notice I’ll leave that there. Uh, but you know, the title of your research is transforming partnerships with major donors. So, so let’s let’s let’s transition to some of those opportunities. You talked about problem solving that could be mutually beneficial. How do I would’ve fundraiser ceo approach someone with that with that kind of opportunity?

[00:39:59.62] spk_0:
Yeah, so I want to break it down to three steps. I want to break one,

[00:40:00.91] spk_1:
2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 3 step process. Okay.

[00:40:03.92] spk_0:
Yeah. Well, yeah, okay, you can call it a three step sauces,

[00:40:07.35] spk_1:
but I didn’t invent it, you made it

[00:42:35.30] spk_0:
up. I think the first thing is you have to really think about the questions you ask them and uh, oftentimes, how curious how respectful for how informed you are are all set out by the kind of questions you asked? Are your questions mostly really at the end of that they self serving. Um or are you only focusing on a very narrow aspects of the donors? Um or are you really broadly interested in problem solving? Now, here’s another thing that entrepreneurs like to do, they like to solve problems and oftentimes they take the same mindset towards non profit Am I really giving to an organizations that are going to solve real major problems in assisting for sustainable way. Um, so that’s the first thing is the questions that you ask And then two is reading once you really find out about uh, you know, what you could learn from the donors, is that really being able to pair what your nonprofits have to offer and that structure in a way as well as well as frame it in a way that, uh, fits the mindset of, well, oftentimes the folks are very busy, they know they need to do something, but they’re very busy. So, um, how is it, uh, how do you make it easy for them? In other words? And then, um, the last thing I would say is, um, it would how do you acknowledge them? Right. Um, it sounds really obvious, right? You know, their stewardship program, there are people will involve in thanking donors. But what I’ve found is that people found, uh, people thought there’s not enough thank you or there’s too much thank you. And they’re not thank through the right medium. And so, Uh, we’re not talking about, you know, $10 $20 where there may be hundreds and thousands of them and you can’t manage them one by one and customized it. But with major donors, it’s absolutely worth it to make sure that is customized to their preferences needs. So questions, the way that you frame as well as the acknowledgment part

[00:43:38.80] spk_1:
and the acknowledgement of the stewardship is interesting. Um, you say somewhere that they, these folks have a hard time understanding, uh, the name on a building. You know, why that why people find that appealing? Why some donors find that appealing? So, so a brick and mortar in fundraising was a brick and mortar recognition would not necessarily be appealing to them. But finding out what is appealing comes from, you know, maybe this, this three steps is sort of iterative, right? And if you’re starting to get near, uh, near something promising, you want to, you want to be finding out to about what they would like in terms of acknowledgement. Yeah. How would you like to be recognized what’s important to you?

[00:43:42.92] spk_0:
So I have a friend of mine who advised nonprofits with operations like this. And um, she helped one of them. She said, you know what, why don’t you just want to just ask?

[00:43:57.37] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:45:25.09] spk_0:
Uh huh. So he did, he created a survey through surveymonkey and you know, they have more than a handful so they can’t just call them up and ask them individually. So, um, he created a survey and he got over 70 response rate, which is really, really good, right? If you’re for for survey. And um, so the survey basically center around 33 things. Um, how would you like to be think? How often would you like to be think and through which medium do you most prefer to be think? And it’s not only do they have really good a feedback, but it’s such a positive gesture from the non profit to the donors saying, hey, we actually admit we don’t know, but we care and we should, we know what we don’t know and we care and now we really would like to learn more from our donors And that truly is a practical, helpful, informative donor centric step to take. And by the way, her name is Lisa Greer. She also has a incredibly helpful book called philanthropy revolutions. So it’s a mixed of, um, it’s a mix of memoir, it’s a mix of research because she told her story, but she also has interviewed over 100 principal gift level donors and um, and uh, and the last mix of how to. So it’s super helpful.

[00:45:41.44] spk_1:
How does lisa spell her last

[00:45:45.69] spk_0:
name? G R E R lisa Greer.

[00:45:54.79] spk_1:
What else? What else can you tell us Esther that uh, in terms of approaching these folks? Um, how about you get, I have a question for a little more specific question. How about you get their attention?

[00:49:04.47] spk_0:
Yeah, I know, um, getting the first meeting, it’s like 50 or 60 or, I don’t know, 70 of the work just being able to get in the call. Um, I think everything matters in the smallest amount of space, which is if you have no other ways to reach them. What do most people do? Emails and so make sure that your subject lined is the most attention grabbing as well as intriguing possible. Uh, way to, to get people’s attention by the way I have. I don’t know if I can memorize the four persona um, off the top of my head. Oh actually I do, I have it right in front of me. Um, my colleague scott more Dell. Um, he is the longest serving ceo of Waipio global young presidents organizations. So these are a lot of the highly concentrated, um first generation wealth around the world, 30,000 of them are around the world. Um, he actually put the their philanthropic tendencies in four ways. Um the idealist is the first one. Those are the ones that you want to make a true impact, long lasting impact. Soft societal problem. Another one is called the legacy Leader. Those are the one who really loves to leave, make sure they name last generations and generations that they are getting credit for the big impact that they made. The third one is called the model citizens and those are the ones that look around and understand what is the highest and highest of highest level of service and they want to be there and the philanthropic effort reflects that. And then the fourth one is called the busy bigwig. That’s the ones who are busy, extremely busy and yet they know they should do something but they don’t know what and how and so back to your questions of how do you get their attention? I think you should first by starting with having a point of view of Mhm. Of these four possibilities which one is this person most likely going to be. And then once you have a persona in mind, then is a lot easier for you to craft a message with the subject line that is most intriguing and attention grabbing for you. I get, despite what my clients and friends and colleagues know about me, I still get these extremely bland and generic um email messages that are, you know, if you just replace the logo of the nonprofits, I will fit anybody

[00:49:11.38] spk_1:
at

[00:49:35.07] spk_0:
all. And so, uh that would be the first thing I think about is have a persona in mind. Even if you’re wrong, it’s okay. Even if you’re wrong, at least you have a point of view about that person. But the upside is that Even if you’re not 100 right, just having the personal, that persona is going to help you speak to that person as if you know a lot about them already.

[00:49:49.87] spk_1:
Are you only really only going to get to them through an introduction or like somebody has to give you their email or I mean there’s not a directory of first generation wealth creators, is there? I know yours was obviously yours was anonymous, but because they’re a I don’t know is there a directory or

[00:50:00.81] spk_0:
something that I think that’s a really interesting question.

[00:50:04.75] spk_1:
Basic basic is what I major in

[00:51:01.96] spk_0:
basics. So really, really interesting question. I love the way you think about things. tony Um Not only is isn’t there one um they really know how to how to hide their wealth. You know, they believe in stealth wealth, not only because of the way they live their lives, but they know how to put things in all things in trust and so everything comes through a different name. And um data can help, um, the right kind of data can, uh, data enriching as well as data matching. Um, I don’t know a ton about it, but I know enough because there’s another company that I co founded that like, that’s all we do because in the old ways, how do you get names of donors? Okay. You ask your board, uh,

[00:51:20.56] spk_1:
that’s how you start. A small organization starts. But, um, but then now, I mean, now we have social media and you can have a campaign and see who gives to that. And then you then you do some research on those folks to see who, who might be, uh, have the capacity to do more. And then you expand your relationship even with the others who may not have capacity, but our willingness.

[00:51:22.66] spk_0:
But see, I I think there’s a lot in your current database that is not being fully utilized,

[00:52:05.85] spk_1:
that maybe for some folks. Yeah. And uh well, because we’re talking about stealth wealth. I mean, yeah, that’s that’s certainly possible. I mean, these these folks live modest, live modest means. I mean, Uh at least outward. Um I mean what, 20 years ago, there was the book the millionaire next door. I mean that’s essentially what we’re talking about this is there are more Zeros now and there are more of them. And we’re in a more financially mobile society now than we were 20 years ago. But the concept is the same that there are these hidden families of wealth that that are may very well be in your database. You know, then it was the millionaire next door now the millionaire in your the ultra high net worth in your database.

[00:53:26.15] spk_0:
Yeah. And when you, you know, go back to the questions, the way that you ask questions of when you have an opportunity to talk to a donor directly. As well as the way that you ask questions about your databases. Um That can really help you look for hit millionaires billionaires right in front of you were in front of your eyes. I wouldn’t be surprised that there are already uh but you aren’t you’re you’re not even aware that you’re pretty close when lisa and night um because of our share passion about this topic and she’s really doing it full time. I’m doing this. This is because This is my baby. Uh you know the first time she wanted to make a a principal gift um to her local hospital. Um she uh budget for $2 million dollars for her hospital and it took the hospital seven months to pay attention to her. And $2 million dollars isn’t a small amount for that hospital. It is definitely a major amount.

[00:53:57.95] spk_1:
But the latent, unconscious sexism, I’ve heard this from women. I do plan to giving fundraising, but I’ve heard this many times from women just ignored when they made explicit overtures. Not just subtle hints, but explicit overtures. You know, I want to do this. I want to remember the organization in my estate plan and, you know, ignored, repeatedly ignored. So, unfortunately, what you’re describing, your friend, lisa’s, uh, I don’t think it’s so uncommon.

[00:54:03.23] spk_0:
Yeah, I

[00:54:21.34] spk_1:
think it’s, I think there’s some, I think there’s just unconscious latent sexual, uh, not sexuality, sexism, uh, uh, in fundraising, it’s and money is left on the table as a result, died from the morality of the, uh, of the, of that that misunderstanding.

[00:54:41.64] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. So, so it’s haven’t seen quantitative research on just how frequently that happened, but that’s leases from her research, from her personal experience from your experience. So I think there are actually plenty of money within reach of nonprofits that they probably have missed, but they didn’t know they have,

[00:55:25.64] spk_1:
we’re gonna leave it there, it’s perfect. Now you have opportunities and I know that our conversation has stimulated thinking about how to find these folks and how to transform your partnership with them Esther choi the research is transforming partnerships with major donors. I’ll give you the full title aligning the key values of first generation wealth creators and fundraisers in the age of winner takes all. You get the research at Leadership Story Lab dot com. That’s where Esther’s company is. Leadership Story Lab and also at Leader Story Lab, Esther choi I want to thank you very much.

[00:55:27.50] spk_0:
Thank you. This is such an invigorating conversation, thank you for the opportunity.

[00:55:47.64] spk_1:
Thanks for saying you’re glad that I asked you were one of the generous, generous guests. I’m glad you asked that I got, I got chills. Thank you Esther next week, overcome your fear of public speaking. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:55:50.02] spk_0:
I beseech

[00:56:00.84] spk_1:
you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o

[00:56:03.44] spk_2:
Our creative producer is Clear. Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark

[00:56:08.57] spk_0:
Silverman is our web

[00:56:09.49] spk_1:
guy and this music

[00:56:13.74] spk_2:
is by scott Stein, mm hmm. Thank you for that information, Scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 8, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

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Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

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Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2020: Personalized Philanthropy

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My Guest:

Steven Meyers: Personalized Philanthropy
It’s his 3 killer apps for fundraising that make Steven Meyers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remain largely outside the mainstream, for no good reason. (Originally aired 6/17/16)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome

[00:01:22.90] spk_2:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. The Innovators. Siri’s continues this week, as last week was, our first continues this week. Now, every show is not gonna be an innovator. Show like next week will not be an innovator, but the innovators air peppered in on and the others are brilliant guests that have very smart ideas to share. Just not quite innovators. Okay, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our second show in the Innovators. Siri’s personalized philanthropy and live innovators are coming. I promise. It’s his three killer APS for fundraising that make Steve Myers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remained largely outside the mainstream for no good reason that originally aired June 17th 2016 on tony Stake to planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cook, a Mountain software Denali fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is personalized Philanthropy

[00:01:49.24] spk_3:
I’m very pleased that Steve Myers is here in the studio for the hour. He is vice president of the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science and author of the book Personalized Philanthropy. Crash. The Fundraising Matrix. He’s a frequent and popular speaker, and he’s at Steven Myers. 863 S T e v E N N e Y E R s Welcome, Stephen Meyers. Welcome to the studio.

[00:02:17.49] spk_4:
I love tony.

[00:02:23.58] spk_3:
Glad to have you in person. I love it here. Glad you’re here. Um, let’s start with the basics with the title. What is this Matrix That you want people to crash?

[00:02:48.34] spk_4:
Yes, the book is called Crash The Fundraising Matrix. Because, um, it reflects what my experience was when I I I was in the process of writing the book when I realized all along that I’d been living in these two cultures that were completely unaware of each other and the Matrix. The movie The Matrix is the perfect metaphor for describing these two cultures. If you remember in the movie

[00:02:57.42] spk_3:
you have to describe, I didn’t see the movie

[00:03:07.71] spk_4:
in the movie. People were taken over by cybernetic implants, robots, machines that rebelled against humanity. And they existed only in, ah, like in a computer matrix. And everybody in the Matrix was really unaware of it. They just thought that everything was normal. They were living in their normal lives, and they didn’t realize that they were kind of being held prisoners, that they were enslaved in a sense. And that’s what the movie is about. When this one person that called Neo the one wakes up to the fact that he’s living in this synthetic artificial environment.

[00:03:35.22] spk_3:
You are You are our neo

[00:03:55.21] spk_4:
I am, and I’m standing in for all the fundraisers who are trying to wake up who feel the same sense of something’s just not right in my world is the fundraiser, and that was the experience that I had. Um, and I wanted to write the book to share that with people so they could wake up, help them to wake up and kind of escape the confines of the silos and the channels that they’ve been stuck in for so many years. Okay, sometimes without even realizing it.

[00:04:16.26] spk_3:
Okay. Uh, so you’re neo nickname Neo? Okay, Steve Neo Myers. Um, all right. Rob was deconstructing The titles are working away backwards. Now, what is the this model Personalized philanthropy

[00:05:26.24] spk_4:
Personalized philanthropy is is the antidote the opposite of what goes on in the Matrix? If you think about fundraising and philanthropy when it translates into the way that we work, it’s really like there’s two cultures. There’s an institutional focused culture which is focused almost entirely on trying to make campaign goals and reach objectives within the annual department or the major gift department. And the plan giving department. And even the small organizations tend to mimic these thes Silas and channels. My first experience was in really working and maybe a two man organization to people, and one of us was assigned this one channel and the other one of us was assigned to the other channel. And how ridiculous is that? It’s a counter intuitive. So the institutional focus is set off against this personalized focus, where instead of trying to service the campaign. You’re trying to serve the interests of donors. You meet the donor where they are instead of where the institution is. So you’re really talking about a whole new definition of what philanthropy is and what fundraising is. Four.

[00:05:55.34] spk_3:
We’ve been talking about donor centered fundraising for a dozen years or so Roughly, maybe, maybe more. Sure. I mean, I’ve been fundraising for 19 years. I don’t think we started out that long ago. But donor centric fundraising donor centered has been around for I’d say at least a dozen years or so. Why is how are you neo gonna gonna make this different and actually get us to where donor center is supposed to have been a CZ long as 12 or 15 years ago.

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
We’ve been talking about donor centered this and donor center that for a really long time, but we really haven’t had much to do about it. Um, when some people talk about donor centered fundraising, they’re talking about recognizing the donor or maybe finding a vehicle that they’re talking about selling a vehicle that they need to sell in order to make to bring that donor in so really donor centered fundraising and that’s really a copyrighted. It’s a trademarked. Yeah, Um, and it it really could have to do with how you thank them. How you write to them, how you called, cultivate them. But it doesn’t really have anything to do with what fundraising and philanthropy is about which, under my definition, the deafness that I’ve been working with is trying to mesh the compelling needs of interests off a donor with the compelling needs of the organization. So that changes. If you start with that definition where the donor’s needs matter, that’s the focus is on them. I really refer to this is donor focus giving rather than donor centered giving because the shift means that you’re focused on trying to understand the compelling interests in the passions of the donor and how they would connect to your organization. All right, that’s much different than the institutional focus

[00:07:33.14] spk_3:
on our hope. Personalized philanthropy is gonna is not gonna take this long to be really be realized, as as donor the donor centered trademark name. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. You’re the You’re the evangelist for for personalized philanthropy.

[00:07:37.75] spk_4:
I believe I am,

[00:08:04.99] spk_3:
I presume. Okay. Very good. We got the right person, and I mean you you brought the book. All right, Um, there’s let’s make sure now we just have a minute or so before break, but we got plenty time to talk. We’re you know, you’re here for the full hour. Let’s make sure that small and midsize shops know that they have. This is applicable to them. And they probably have advantages in trying to pivot to to be personalized philanthropists, philanthropies sent centers or shops, right?

[00:08:36.44] spk_4:
Yes. When I wrote the book, I was thinking of the person like me who was working in a small shop who had a background in annual giving and found themselves working in a major giving field. So for me, they were always connected. And I think that this is about empowering and enabling a person in a small shop to make a difference with every donor that they work with, not just the ones that there focused on for annual or planned or major giving. You meet the donor where they are. That’s the That’s the magic of this.

[00:08:43.74] spk_3:
Okay, excellent. All right. I want that reassurance. I’m very glad to hear it. And ah, Steve and I are gonna keep talking about personalized philanthropy. Stay with us.

[00:09:18.75] spk_2:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new C p A. A firm whose service is excellent, provides clear directions and timetables, is easy to work with and where you know, a partner That’s heat Coach Tomb has been a guest several times on the show. He’s gonna be coming back, and he will tell you whether Wagner can help you in 2020. So you start at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone and talk to eat. Now back to personalized philanthropy.

[00:09:29.78] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, um, you talk about in the book you mentioned a few times Transformation over transaction Flush that out from. Yeah,

[00:10:17.64] spk_4:
there’s two ways to think about fundraising the usual ways to think about the donor period and have a colleague who was written a book about the Donor Life Science Cycle Pyramid and the Pyramid. You’re thinking about transactions. You’re thinking about where a donor falls as a major donor at the top, in the middle or at the bottom. Transformational fundraising. You really thinking about time you’re thinking about loyalty? You’re thinking about relationships and they can take place over time. And the problem with with the pyramid style, the transactional, is that each transaction is separate and unrelated to all the others. What personalized philanthropy does is it creates a new model where all the transactions are connected to one another so that each gift can count in a way that would never count ordinarily. And it could explain. I can give you an example

[00:10:20.15] spk_3:
of examples stories. Just imagine.

[00:11:01.84] spk_4:
Imagine a rope. What end of the rope is the first gift and another end of the rope is the last gift. This is the chain of value in in in plan giving in and fundraising. And if you know all the all the value comes out at the end when the donor dies, implant giving it well, really. And if you think about the lifetime value of a donor, the big gifts come at the end. Yes. Okay. Ah, and you’re looking for bumps and major gifts and special gifts gifts. You make frequently gifts you make once in a while during a campaign and gifts you make once when you die. So what you have is you have a long rope with a lot of knots in it. What you’re gonna do and personalized philanthropy is you’re gonna move this rope around and you’re going to connect all of the knots. And that’s good means that all of these gifts are going to be connected with what another and they’re going to be united around, Ah, common purpose that the donor has an objective goal that not one gift could achieve. But all together, they can start to make a big difference during the donor’s lifetime. That’s a radical rethinking of how philanthropy works.

[00:11:26.88] spk_3:
Can we tie the two ends of the rope together and make a circle so that it’s it’s unending and non never breaks a

[00:11:34.59] spk_4:
circle? Or you could make a

[00:11:36.25] spk_3:
don’t make a new You don’t make the news.

[00:11:43.13] spk_4:
You make it. You’ll make a circle. You’re making really a tapestry like a like a Persian rug, each each. A lifetime of giving has a different design, and each donor kind of weaves their own tapestry of giving as they go through their life.

[00:12:01.54] spk_3:
Okay, I won’t force you to take the metaphor any further. We’re going to start making cat beds, and that’s not okay. Okay, um, Now, you you run at the Weizmann Institute, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. I’m I’m betting that it wasn’t called the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. When you first got there, you had to make some changes.

[00:12:26.42] spk_4:
I was the national director of plan giving that I was the national vice president for plan giving. And then ultimately, we decided to abandon the title of plan given, because

[00:12:28.02] spk_3:
sounds very solid. And may Trixie to me. Well, it was

[00:12:38.14] spk_4:
it was we came to realize that plan giving us Justus much asylum or channel has any of these other pains, and we weren’t working that way anymore. So we wanted to change that. Actually, what inspired the change from plan giving to personalized philanthropy was when my organization, the Weizmann Institute, decided to establish a center for personalized medicine. That’s a collaborative, multi disciplinary, interdisciplinary program where people are, um, um, collaborating in all kinds of new ways. And when I heard that phrase personalized medicine, You mean this medicine is designed for one person only. And it’s gonna work the first time

[00:13:11.97] spk_3:
in their DNA to select connected

[00:13:56.12] spk_4:
with that with their Deanna. Why, You know, that just was a wake up call for me that that’s what Philanthropy and fund raising Auto bay. All right, one of you kind of full spectrum. All the building blocks should be available to you. You bring them toe where the donor is, rather than trying to sell them something that you have you been instructed, really? Basically toe bring to them and ask them, Would you make a gift of X for this math, building, math and science building? And it doesn’t matter if the person cares about math or science. Maybe they were in the art department or they were a into literature or poetry. And why would they?

[00:14:15.44] spk_3:
Yeah, but we need based on our needs, space, the organization’s needs. But now you had to do some cultural and organizational change to create the the the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. What advice do you have for people who want to initiate this in their own organization? How do we start that conversation?

[00:14:31.62] spk_4:
I wouldn’t make a lot. I wouldn’t wait a lot for the organization to change its culture or its policies or procedures. Personalized plate. That is something that you could begin to think about when you kind of open up your your mind first realize that there is this matrix of Silas and channels that all of our fundraising basically is in. Right. And you want to try to find a way to connect your current giving in your future, giving around where your donors are at. And in order to do that you need like like an personalized medicine. They have technology. They have. They’re using technology in new ways. They have computational biology, so they could look at all this life science information in a systematic way. And this technology allows them to personalize medicine. So we have to have some tools that allow us to do this. And so I developed these things that I called killer APS. They are gift designs for bringing together current and future gifts that could be personalized and individually tailored to work with each donor.

[00:16:09.74] spk_3:
Yes, and we’re gonna get to the killer APs. But where were sporting neos throughout the throughout the world And there are in small, most of them listeners. There’s a small and midsize nonprofits, and they want to start a conversation about making a shift to personalize philanthropy from the Matrix that they are now burdened with right? I were want some tips. How did they start? But they’re going to sound like a lunatic the first time they go to their vice president or their CEO executive director, personalized philanthropy. And they have rope metaphors and not something you know how may be based on your own experience or, you know you’re coaching of others. How do we get this process started in our own currently matrix to shop?

[00:17:03.18] spk_4:
Well, as I said, the first thing you have to do is wake up to the fact that you’re working in a silo. Oh, and awareness awareness. And then you need to look outside of yourself outside of your silo. And, for instance, if you’re involved in playing giving, you know that one of the things that really makes that correlates with the plan gift is the donor who gives all the time. A donor who gives frequently tends to be the kind of person who wants to remember your organization in their estate plans. In fact, they may already have done that. So you would think, Wouldn’t it be amazing if we, without changing very much of this donor’s habit or pattern of giving. They could have a much greater impact today, instead of waiting until their death when they’re bequest comes in so kind of realizing that it’s possible Tiu have impact and recognition for a donor that begins right now.

[00:17:20.60] spk_3:
Okay, were so we’re gonna look to methods off current recognition and current value for both the organization and the and the donor, right, rather than long term. All right, All right, let’s start and and you have the killer APs before we get to the killer APS I think I’d like you just explain the spend rate because the Apsara largely dependent on an endowment spend rate, and there may very well be organization. I don’t even have an endowment yet, so let’s explain, spend rate.

[00:17:56.70] spk_4:
This personalized philanthropy works whether or not you have an endowment or not, Right. If you don’t have an endowment, you still need to have cash reserves, and you still need to be able to be financially sound. So that’s an objective that every organization has, even if they’re, ah, food bank or the kind of organization where they believe that they should not have an endowment. So

[00:18:05.04] spk_3:
there are a good number of them. There’s a

[00:19:09.34] spk_4:
lot of them out there, actually smaller ones, right? But the basic principle involved here is what I would call something like like this. It’s the grail of fundraising. The question that is not asked very often by donors to the organization is what’s the best gift that I could give you if I could give you anything that you wanted? Most organizations would ask for ID, like a gift of cash, and I like it right now. Thank you very much on and they would, and they would like to have it for general purposes. Um, but the question that they don’t know to ask is, Can we have a gift that will start working right away? Because we need to pay our bills. We have current deeds, and we also want to sustain ourselves for the future. So we need a gift that starts now and grows and scales up for the future. And most people in plain giving our only focus on the future. And most people in major and annual giving our only focus current president. So this grail of fundraising is the gift that really is the ultimate, the kind of gift that the organization needs the most but doesn’t even know how to ask for. OK, and that’s the kind of gift that we’re talking.

[00:19:17.70] spk_3:
All right, let’s define spend rate for people, and then we’ll get to your killer. APS spends Ben Drake

[00:19:21.72] spk_4:
please in an endowment on down when it’s usually thought to be the most important type of gift because a person makes a gift. And instead of being expended immediately, it goes into a bank account, an investment program, and each year a certain percentage of that fund is spent on the on the project or the program or the program, whatever that might be. And usually it’s like 5%.

[00:19:44.09] spk_3:
Yeah, I’ve seen between, like, three and 1/2 and five okay and used to

[00:19:50.64] spk_4:
used to be higher with the With Economy tanked a few years ago, I was spending rates began to to drop

[00:19:54.26] spk_3:
right because this is the amount that you’re spending from your endowment, and your endowment is supposed to be perpetual. So when investment returns or low spend rate spend, rates come down. This is typically decided by the board or maybe a committee of the board each year and Sometimes they look at the role of the average of the past three years returns. And that’s all financial stuff like

[00:20:15.68] spk_4:
if you What’s the idea?

[00:20:23.24] spk_3:
That, yeah, I’ve just wanna just feeling a little background, so to spend rate. So the spend rate changes from year to year. That’s the point. And typically you see same like three and 1/2 to 5. Or usually it’s

[00:20:46.84] spk_4:
around around 5%. And for the purpose of the conversation, it’s It’s pretty good. So that if someone makes $100,000 gift for an endowed scholarship and the scholarship is a proxy for whatever is something that’s really important to the donor into the school or the meshing, yes, then that $100,000 is going to produce, like, $5000

[00:20:50.38] spk_3:
each year we spend each year 5005% of endowment. Okay,

[00:20:54.90] spk_4:
so that’s how that’s how the spend rate works. And the goal of every fundraiser is to go out and get that endowment gift.

[00:21:00.65] spk_3:
All right, now we got the basics. Your first killer app is the virtual endowment. What is that? Well, that sounds very jargon e Virtually we have George in jail on tony-martignetti non profit radio. Okay, but I know you’re gonna get yourself out quickly.

[00:21:47.08] spk_4:
I’ll try. Well, you take that endowment that you just talked about the $100,000 that produces $5000 a year. You turned it upside down. This sounds like the veg. A Matic I didn’t. OK, he turned it upside down. It produces the donors, is giving you the $5000 a year every every year, say, for five years or 10 years. And that is going to be treated as if it were the product of an endowment that is yet to be created. So this donor has you in their will already say, for $100,000 they’re pretty comfortable giving you $5000 a year. They’ve been doing that without even being asked for him. It was maybe for general purpose.

[00:21:51.00] spk_3:
But they’re not comfortable giving you the $100,000 that’s right during their life, or at least at this point

[00:22:04.16] spk_4:
in their life. But their pattern of giving is such that an annual giver already and they care about the organization. So at the end of the rope, the end of the chain of living and giving is that $100,000? So why

[00:22:10.56] spk_3:
just come a little closer to the mic?

[00:22:14.46] spk_4:
Okay, thank you. So who is to say that getting that $5000 every year and then getting the $100,000 later where the program becomes self sustaining? Who’s to say that that’s not just a valuable as getting the $100,000 up front

[00:22:28.33] spk_3:
right? Okay,

[00:22:29.16] spk_4:
that’s a virtual endowment. And then with when the donor passes away, the virtual endowment essentially becomes a true and down

[00:22:53.82] spk_3:
okay. Or if they have a life event that changes their circumstances and they’re able to fund their endowment fully or maybe even half of some, you know, big Big bump while they’re living, that’s great. But in the meantime, they’re giving you what you would have spent from the endowment anyway. Brilliant. It’s very simple. Not too many organizations do this, though. I think

[00:22:56.53] spk_4:
it They don’t do that often because they’re focused on having a separate annual campaign, and they’re on to maintain that base of annual donors. And they have a whole maybe either they have a whole separate division of department and a department head who focuses on annual giving and another department that focuses on major giving it another one that focuses on plan giving. And they just they don’t connect up. And they have a lot of issues about who owns the donor and speak to the donor. So and what are you doing speaking to that donor there, Not a plan giving prospect,

[00:23:44.78] spk_3:
right? So if this this donor that you’re describing ah doesn’t meet the major gift level because here she can’t afford the $100,000 outright, then they’ll go to the Maybe they’ll drop to the or be shifted over to the annual giving team or something, but they won’t think of it as a virtual endowment. They’ll just think of it is we get $5000 a year from this person, but they’re not thinking longer term. And it’s usually when that annual fund silo

[00:24:03.46] spk_4:
in the Matrix that the preferred gift in the Matrix matrix general unrestricted gifts because we know how to spend your money better than you do right, and we need it to keep our operations go.

[00:24:12.49] spk_3:
So they’re not thinking about devoting it to a purpose that might later be endowed fully. That’s right. Later in the person’s life or at their data.

[00:24:18.83] spk_4:
And if if the purpose is central to the organization, if they had that endowment and they could do anything they wanted with it, they would most likely be funding those kind of programmes anyway.

[00:24:38.89] spk_3:
Yeah, okay. Okay. Killer APS. Okay, before we get to the killer APS ah, two and three just make clear why they’re called killer APS.

[00:25:08.44] spk_4:
They’re called killer APS because, like with any kind of technology, when new technology comes on, it just sort of wipes out everything that’s come before it thes when you employ the zaps and you work with them with donors, they achieve gifts that are so much greater. The donor you were talking about who was the $5000 donor now becomes a major donor because they’re giving $5000 a year and they have $100,000 on the books. So that could be, you know, a $200,000 down or even a much larger donor. It just changes the way you think about how you how you work. You really don’t want to go back to living in that silo Once you’ve been able to span plan major on annual giving through one of these per highly personalized gifts. They really work amazingly well.

[00:25:30.44] spk_3:
Excellent. Okay, we’re gonna take a little paws much more with Steve Myers coming up. We’re gonna talk about the philanthropic mortgage and step up GIF, ts and how your solicitations are gonna change.

[00:27:01.64] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software in the new year. Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. Meaning it’s built for you. For our community. Their customer service is excellent. So you know you’ve got backup if you need it. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take 24 Must have to start your plan giving in 2020. I hope that if you’re not already kicked off with plan giving, you’re not already deep into it. That 2020 is gonna be the year you get started. I have four things that I believe you need in place before you can get started there. Simple. But you gotta have some things lined up. Thio have ah decent chance of success of this at your inaugural planned giving program. And the first of these is you have to be at least five years old so that donors are confident that your organization will live beyond them. So I like to see at least those five years of history and for the other four must have for the other three must have of the four. Check out the video. It’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Steak, too. Now, back to personalized philanthropy. Our second entry in the Innovators, Siri’s

[00:27:11.82] spk_3:
Steve Myers never went anywhere. Took a couple sips of water. Thank you for your indulgence. Let’s talk about another killer app. The philanthropic mortgage. What you got going on there? The idea of

[00:27:47.84] spk_4:
the philanthropic mortgage seems so intuitive, but it’s something that we would never be able to think about in a highly silent and channeled environment that they call the fundraising matrix. Yeah, philanthropic mortgage. When you when you buy a house, you don’t have to pay for it in full before you move into it. You’re not. You create a mortgage. This mortgage you are paying you’re making like one payment and the payment goes partly for interests, and the other part of it goes to build equity in your in your home bills Equity principle? Yeah, yeah, building, building

[00:27:50.63] spk_3:
prints and build equity. But basically,

[00:28:50.05] spk_4:
the idea here is that you’re it’s just same ideas wth e the virtual endowment. A person can make a gift of that spending rate for the for the scholarship that they’d like to have. And so the scholarship can start up right away and then in the virtual endemic, they’re going to make slight, sort of like a balloon payment at the end of their life. They’re gonna pay it off through their request. But in the idea of a philanthropic mortgage, you can pay more than just the quote unquote interest. You could also pay a little more than the spending rate. The operating annual cost of that on that little bit extra goes to creating and building equity in your endowment fund. Beautiful. So over years over time, you could build the equity in your fund and your program can begin right away. So if you’re talking about a scholarship or a professorial chair, you get to meet that incumbent. You get to get the letters from them. You get to go and play an active part and have a relationship with the organization of the people that

[00:28:57.32] spk_3:
you’re supporting. So going back to our hypothetical before maybe that donor is giving $10,000 a year or 7500 year. 5000 is the spend rate. And then the surplus goes to start building up that endowment, which will be fully funded at some balloon payment with some balloon payment in future. That’s exactly what all right, all

[00:29:37.91] spk_4:
right. There’s an even more interesting example that relates to this up to a donor who’s maybe a little bit older and they’re going to have to. And they have an IRA Ira now that that the permanent ah charitable rollover is in effect, right? We know that it’s gonna happen all the time. We want to wait to the end of the year, and guests wait to the last minute so we could make these gifts whenever we want to. So that means if you’re working with the donor who is going to be 70 and 1/2 in the next couple of years, they’re going to start taking money out on a regular basis

[00:29:42.18] spk_3:
right that required minimum distribution

[00:30:34.95] spk_4:
wired to do that. And let’s say that they don’t need it to live. Then that could become, ah, part of the, you know, both part of the virtual endowment, and it can also be part of the little extra that they might have. So working with a donor who for the first couple of years is just paying the spending right to create a post doctor old chair in computer science because he loves that. But towards the end of the schedule, he’s going to reach the age of 17 and 1/2. He’s going to get a huge for him, at least required minimum distribution. That’s going to be his balloon payment, right? So he’s gonna pay the regular amount. And then the last year, he’s gonna receive a much larger amount from his IRA. And he’s gonna add that complete his the endowment that he writes for the post doctoral fellowship in his parent’s names.

[00:31:09.30] spk_3:
I’d like to think of the IRA now, especially because of the rollover is well, it’s actually a qualified charitable distribution, but everybody knows there’s a roll over because that’s now permanent. We might start to see, You know, Ira’s sort of become I have many foundation You can do your charitable giving through your i. R a. Have a count toward this required minimum distribution, which for a lot of people, is more than they want or need. And then you’re not You’re not text on it. You avoid the federal income tax on that, that distribution or that gift to, ah, the charity.

[00:31:22.88] spk_4:
So that only doesn’t have a value as a transaction. Because each time, as you pointed out, you don’t have to pay tax on the money that you’re giving away. You’ll never taxed on it. Essentially, you can use it strategically to grow your on pay the spending rate and the operating costs for your program. So we’re gonna begin right away,

[00:31:35.82] spk_3:
transformational and transactions. What? It’s okay. We agree. It’s not a hostile environment. You think you’re walking into a hostile environment? Yeah. Okay. Um, your final killer app is, uh, step up gift sort of a hybrid. Talk about talk about to step up.

[00:33:27.82] spk_4:
It’s a hybrid that person might be able to Ah, um this is one of those gifts that people wouldn’t think about because they would think that I could never have a professorial chair, at least not during my lifetime, because the professorial chair cost of 1,000,000 or $2 million that’s gonna be more than likely that will be in my estate. But I can’t really find a way to access that money now, however I can. I do have that $5000 that I’ve been giving every year for general purposes, and I could continue to do that for a number of years so I could start off by funding that scholarship we talked about earlier, that $100,000 scholarship that cost $5000 a year. So during my lifetime with Simon older donor, I could have that masters or other scholarship that could begin right now and then upon my death, um, the funds from my estate bequest for my estate could step up that endowment to the 1,000,000 or $2 million level. So basically my gift would step up from a master scholarship or a doctoral scholarship or a postdoctoral scholar ship all the way up to a professorial chair through my estate. Okay. And my plan would be put together so that the totality of my plane would be understood by both myself and by the charity that I’m working with from the very beginnings, right? This is a comprehensive that truly is a transformational give. It transforms from an annual gift to a major scholarship gift and to really a very substantial estate gift in there, all tied together around the same purpose, even though there are separate gifts that function for different purposes along the way. And then ultimately they all go for the same purpose.

[00:33:42.99] spk_3:
How do the killer APS and the smashing of the Matrix and the creation of a personalized philanthropy? How do these all come together to change our solicitations?

[00:35:39.14] spk_4:
That’s really a good question. I think it changes the way. First of all, it it changes the way that you think If you go back to the back to the movie The Matrix, when people see The Matrix, they sort of acquire these magical powers that could kind of see around corners and they can fly. They can defy the laws of physics because they understand the world in a in a way that was different in the way they understood it before. So if you are uh, if your practice becomes one of personalized philanthropy, you’re kind of working as an enlightened generalised. You have all the gifts, all the building blocks of philanthropy that you can bring to bear on each person wherever they are, and that’s going to change the nature of your work. You’re going to be basically sitting on the same side of the table as the donor, really an ally, ah, force to help them achieve what they want to and realize what’s what’s possible that they never would have thought was possible before by connecting all these small, modest gifts that they could make during their lifetime with the larger gifts that they could make through their estate, essentially changing the whole value change so the value can come out when they want it to come out and achieve that impact and begin to change society now. So that means that instead of just kind of being a hit and run kind of fundraiser like the annual fund people come in, I’d like to get the same thing I got last year, maybe a little bit more, and then move on to something else. Instead, you’re connected with the stoner through time. You’re not just looking at them at a point on the donor pyramid, you’re looking at their whole lifetime value as a donor and that that changes everything. The changes, the process for developing a personalized gift is much different. Thin. The solicitation of a typical asked for a regular

[00:35:59.12] spk_3:
Don’t you’re so stations. There’s gonna be more questioning and what’s important to you and what what brings you joy around the work that we do and right and more of a process than a discreet sit down. And the loser is the one who talks first after the ask is made. And then in four days there’s a follow up phone call. What are your thoughts about what we pitched very different.

[00:36:12.97] spk_4:
It’s it’s really completely, utterly.

[00:36:13.97] spk_3:
So what are some of the things that you ask about in your solicitation meetings? Well, it’s not

[00:36:25.93] spk_4:
that I ask any pursuit different questions than other fundraisers would. Just when I’m when I’m my thinking is different. I’m listening. I’m listening in a different way. And, uh

[00:36:30.34] spk_3:
So what are you doing? Let us into that neo brain. Okay, Well, what are you doing? What I’m trying

[00:37:25.54] spk_4:
to do is, I’m trying to discover what what matters to them and what I have that other fundraisers don’t have is that I have these killer APs that can connect to where the donor is so that if a donor has a habit of giving annually, I couldn’t begin to think about how might they have a greater impact by connecting all those gifts that they’re doing? If they gave for the last 10 years, $5000 a year? Chances are pretty good that they won’t be offended if we talk about. If you continue your pattern of giving, you could have a whole different kind of impact than you. Then you were having beef here, so it’s It’s a different, different tools and technology that I could use. I don’t have to sell them the math building when there are really more interested in the arts and music program. I could start with where with where they with where they’re at. Okay, so that that makes all the difference,

[00:37:32.33] spk_3:
right? Thanks for letting us into that head. We wanna when I want to be there, explicitly, even though we’re there for the hour. But it’s

[00:37:53.00] spk_4:
a good head to Bay because you you’re not just talking about donor centric donor focused giving. When you get this information, you can use it so that if a donor is ah, if they may already have included you in their estate plans, thanks a lot of donors they will that will do that without even being asked. That’s that’s where they begin. So you know that there’s going to be endowment. Possible atT. The end. Now you could begin to talk with them about connecting the current giving so that the impact of that future gift can start. Now.

[00:38:09.42] spk_3:
We have just about two minutes before break, and in those couple minutes I want you to flush out something. You talk in the book about the four Children from the Passover Seder? Yeah, just a couple minutes. How do they figure into this? The four Children who are they and what’s in there

[00:38:24.21] spk_4:
in the past, over in the past, over service. If this is part of the service that gets recited every year, so people know these names that might be familiar with him, so you could

[00:38:32.26] spk_3:
well, they think that we’re going to Passover seders. I’ve only been to one in my life, and I don’t remember the four Children.

[00:39:36.73] spk_4:
So the four Children, the Seder, are the wise, the wicked, the simple and the one who doesn’t know how to ask. So just imagine that these people have grown up and become donors and each one of them in the past, over service. The idea is to try to reach each individual, each type of Children of child where they are, um, and begin with what they are, who they are at, relate to them as individuals. Ah, and then you build out, you build out from that. So the four Children who begin to think about them as donors, you begin to focus on ah, where they’re at. If they’re wise, they might give it. That might be the kind of person who gives every year without being asked if they’re wicked. They might, uh, wicked is not. Ah, it’s not a bad term. In this case, it’s a kind of a positive thing because the person would be discerning very smart. They might have an interest in taking care of their loved ones as well. The donor, who is simple, just might begin with a bequest because as the seeds were planted before them. They will continue to plant the seeds for the future. And the donor who doesn’t have to know how to ask, is the one who has a charitable inclination but doesn’t know how to scratch that itch. So they’re the most fun to work with the ball.

[00:39:55.88] spk_3:
Beautiful. That’s great story. I kind of wish we’d ended with that, but we’re not anything but we’ll have a good ending anyway. Let’s go out for a break when we come back. Stephen, I’m gonna keep talking, talking a little about counting all these new gifts that you’re gonna be getting. Stay with us

[00:40:39.51] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation, you’ve got the best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and other media, and that’s how you get great coverage when it matters. Because you’ve got existing relationships. There are turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for personalized philanthropy.

[00:40:59.41] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, we’re gonna have lots of new gifts coming in, and you’re pretty. You’re pretty generous about counting. You don’t seem very generous. Don’t say that in the book, but it’s between between the lines you want. You want to give as much credit as possible? Not Not surprising. Really? Um, yes. Yes, you do. Um, let’s talk about, say, I’m gonna hash. We break this down So we look at the killer APS and how they would be counted or what? You’re what? You’re counting philosophy. Generally. Let’s start there.

[00:41:11.01] spk_4:
Okay. Uh, the prime directive for me in counting is don’t just count one number.

[00:41:18.61] spk_3:
Yes. You said that explicitly. The book? Yeah.

[00:41:32.18] spk_4:
Everything in our lives. It’s the sort of damage, please. Hanging over the head of every fund raiser, its financial resource development. And, um, how much did you raise? You have to How much did you raise? What did you raise? And if

[00:41:35.53] spk_2:
you don’t have

[00:42:56.62] spk_4:
an answer for that, someone else will. It’ll be a new accounting formula financial formula that tells what the present value is of all the gifts that came in. And of course, the president value doesn’t include bequests or request expect expectancies. It doesn’t include the kind of cultivation in the activities that you d’oh. It reduces everything that comes out of the system that doesn’t not have a present value. Yeah, and as fundraisers know, there’s a lot of things that we do that that would be considered his fundraising achievements that normally don’t count. So we wanna have a way of describing what it is that we do that goes along with how we feel about what fundraising achievement actually is. So when I say don’t count just one number, what we’re really saying is there is one number that you have to be aware of it. Everybody has to know that. But there’s a complement of that one number, and it’s a multi dimensional set of numbers that can help us to measure our own effectiveness and convey to the people that we are working with and for what all this fundraising has been about. And really, there are three kinds of gifts that we we like to count outright gifts that count 100% gifts that there would be like Category one gifts,

[00:42:58.32] spk_3:
cash and cash equivalents. Call those the category one cash

[00:43:04.90] spk_4:
cash equivalents that would include pledges that air like payable over a couple of years.

[00:43:06.84] spk_3:
Legally binding. I get legally binding pledge.

[00:43:51.20] spk_4:
It’s legally binding. Pledge is okay, and legally binding pledges could include pledges that are payable over 12 or three years but also pledges for older donors that are going to be considered as bookable or irrevocable from their estates. That’s another type of ah, gift that would count in this cash or cash equivalents. The second category is the irrevocable gifts that we we raised the charitable remainder trust and gift annuities and part of the value of them would count in that one number, and the rest of the wood would not count until they were later received. And the third category is revocable gifts or or bequests that are expected but that have not yet been received.

[00:43:54.38] spk_3:
And they’re not legally binding.

[00:43:55.79] spk_4:
And they’re not. And they’re not legally because

[00:43:57.51] spk_3:
there are ways of making a bequest legally binding. If the person signed a contract to buying their estate, um, testamentary contract. Okay, so

[00:44:14.13] spk_4:
this, uh, this journey towards personalized philanthropy really began for me with this question of what am I doing here? What?

[00:44:14.85] spk_3:
I just asked that question about 1/2 an hour. Just asked. That’s a

[00:44:40.24] spk_4:
really good question. You should always be asking, What am I doing here? And if you’re on task, you’re doing something that relates to one of those kinds of gifts. You’re cultivating a donor for a future gift your culture. Get cultivating them for a gift that can provide income to them now and a gift to you later. And you’re also cultivating the firm, a gift that they could make now and that you can have now that could be both cash or it can be assets other other than cash. And that’s how you would evaluate what you’re doing in kind of a multi disciplinary way.

[00:44:49.22] spk_1:
How do you

[00:44:57.49] spk_3:
like toe? Give credit to fundraisers for activities that aren’t quantifiable, you know, advancements in a relationship. But the person didn’t increase their giving this year or pledged to in the future. You know all those activities that meaningful but non quantifiable,

[00:45:09.68] spk_4:
right? Yeah. You want to

[00:45:10.65] spk_3:
How do we help fundraisers be recognised? Well,

[00:45:42.77] spk_4:
you know, we develop metrics out of these out of these out of activities, and you try to figure out the ones that are going to be important for you, and you embrace the ones that are important for you now sometimes, um, people go way overboard on this. There was one fundraiser that I know who travels around a lot to meet with donors. And his supervisor wanted to him to quantify, um, how much, um, money per per mile he was raising. He said, Oh, no, no,

[00:45:46.45] spk_3:
I won’t do that on.

[00:45:48.10] spk_4:
He was senior enough that he was able to avoid that in another system. They wanted to know. What is this fundraiser doing? Every 15 minutes? It’s almost

[00:45:56.80] spk_3:
Oh, my God, It’s like law firms.

[00:45:57.84] spk_4:
Like a lot

[00:46:11.12] spk_3:
of booking for way. I used to book a six minute increments. All right, we just have about a minute, lad. We don’t want to do right. We do that. That’s not to do we have about a minute left? Leave us with some things that we should be measuring to give credit to fundraisers. Some examples of what you measure you like to measure

[00:46:39.89] spk_4:
well, when you, when you do these blended gifts with blended gifts come from a combination of current and future gifts. So you want to measure the gifts, all of their dimensionality, so that you could compare them to the single present value along with all the value that they’re going to bring to the organization beginning right now. So if you’re going back to the person that we were speaking of before, go

[00:46:40.25] spk_3:
ahead, you have to wrap it up.

[00:46:41.22] spk_4:
Okay, Well, uh, their gift is gonna have an immediate impact, and it’s gonna grow and scale up over time. And that’s what you want to try to achieve that, That that’s the grail of fundraising.

[00:47:12.14] spk_3:
And that’s if you want to track yet. Okay, we have to leave it there. Steve Myers, vice president, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science. You’ll find him on Twitter at Steven Myers. 863 The book. Get the book. It’s personalized. Philanthropy crashed the fundraising metrics. It’s at Amazon, and it’s also a charity channel, which is the publisher

[00:47:59.44] spk_2:
next week. Our innovators, Siri’s continues with leading systems change. What did I say earlier in the show that next week would not be innovators? Siri’s? That was a mistake that definitely is the innovative Siri’s third entry, and it’ll be alive. Finally, live innovators. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com It’s still occurs to me. I need an intern to blame for these mistakes. It’s it’s unbelievable. By Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? So if you know anybody who wants to be a blamed in turn in the future, resume to tony at 20 martignetti dot com and also by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Our creative producer is

[00:49:04.47] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lieber, which is the line producer thief shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Great voice just cracked talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, Huh?

Nonprofit Radio for January 10, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Happy New Year. I

[00:01:14.54] spk_2:
hope you enjoyed enormous amounts of time and good fun with family and friends. Lots of time off during the holidays. I hope you enjoyed the hell out of them. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize. A phobia if you missed our first show in the innovators Siris de colonizing wealth You can’t always kick off a series with a live guest. Edgard Villanueva’s book De Colonizing Wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy that originally aired November 30th 2018 on Tony’s Take two planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is our first guest in The Innovators, Siri’s Edgar Villanueva.

[00:01:46.97] spk_1:
That’s my great

[00:01:47.77] spk_3:
pleasure to welcome to the studio. Edgar Villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of Native Americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andress Family Fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable

[00:02:04.64] spk_1:
youth. He’s an instructor

[00:02:15.34] spk_3:
with the grantmaking School at Grand Valley State University and served as vice president of programs and advocacy at the Shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s

[00:02:15.51] spk_1:
held leadership roles at Kate Be. Reynolds Charitable Trust in North Carolina and Marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle.

[00:02:26.38] spk_3:
Edgar is an enrolled member of the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and

[00:02:33.05] spk_1:
at Villanueva Edgar and welcome to Studio.

[00:02:34.17] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:35.68] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month. Was October October 16th. Yes, all right.

[00:02:42.22] spk_3:
And you just had a very nice interview with The New York Times. Yes. Congratulations. On that day, that’s prep, prep, prep you for non profit radio,

[00:02:49.46] spk_4:
right? Right. I’m ready.

[00:02:50.80] spk_1:
All your all your media appearances

[00:02:52.77] spk_3:
to date have brought you to this moment, right? So that it’s all culminated here.

[00:02:57.61] spk_5:
Um,

[00:02:58.74] spk_1:
I promised listeners. Footnote one

[00:03:31.05] spk_3:
Footnote 12 Aah! Hyper Garg, Alice, the Asia. Of course, anybody listens to show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease, every single show. But in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle issue Asia. So this is the first time over 400 shows that thea that the guest unknowingly has ah, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do. That every single show. Um, you don’t know that

[00:03:32.16] spk_4:
I didn’t.

[00:03:32.55] spk_3:
Not listening to non profit radio. It’s It’s

[00:03:45.58] spk_1:
your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re You’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. No

[00:03:45.68] spk_4:
one told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way,

[00:03:52.61] spk_1:
but that’s not

[00:04:00.05] spk_3:
all so bad. Getting closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate. with it. Um, I

[00:04:00.14] spk_1:
used to call myself the Charlie

[00:04:06.38] spk_3:
Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer. Um,

[00:04:08.83] spk_1:
because you talk about, ah,

[00:04:16.90] spk_3:
colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like, those are bad things.

[00:04:18.64] spk_4:
Yes, they are. Bad thing.

[00:04:20.19] spk_3:
Okay. What? Ah, what is that? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:26.84] spk_1:
so many of

[00:04:41.75] spk_4:
us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? Um, you know, I have this firewall that were completely disconnected from Wall Street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for that, the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways, not in

[00:05:01.97] spk_3:
the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:05.18] spk_4:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated? Um, you know, especially I’m from the South, North Carolina. We’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was a legacy of slavery and stolen lands that that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:34.94] spk_3:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native Americans.

[00:05:40.29] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:05:47.79] spk_4:
So, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in North Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparent’s generation, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still what We’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are arias, resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to soft today. As a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:34.10] spk_3:
You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Um, now you’re a member of the Lumbee tribe. North Carolina. That’s right. Robertson County, North Carolina. Which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west, I think of of Robertson County lumber. So the Lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the love bees and lumber turn the town. That’s right. Name for Lum bees,

[00:07:06.91] spk_4:
Right. So lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first, and so

[00:07:12.25] spk_1:
certainly the river came from. The name of the river came, right, Right. River’s been

[00:07:22.29] spk_4:
there much longer. Okay? Yes. So we’re, you know, hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal North Carolina that I came together to form the Lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:42.04] spk_3:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to ah, Native Americans as the as the original philanthropist, but that struck me a lot. I think. You You say you say that the end of the at the end of books, right where I caught it. Um, we have, like, a minute 1/2 or so before a break. So just we’re introducing this. We got playing time together. Wealth, you say, divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:07:53.94] spk_4:
So the accumulation of wealth so money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, I say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed on the acts that could result as as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what? That’s what has calls the Harmon itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done.

[00:08:36.03] spk_3:
You’ve got 7/16 steps to that. The second half of your book. All right, We’ll take our first break.

[00:09:08.03] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new c p A. A firm whose service is excellent, who provides clear direction and timetables and is easy to work with. And you know where you know a partner There, There where? You know, a partner you touch to talk to him. He’ll tell you honestly whether they can help you in the new year. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to de colonizing wealth.

[00:09:17.69] spk_3:
Now back to Naghani Onishi! That is your Indian name. Did I by any chance, say that correctly?

[00:09:20.61] spk_4:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my Ojibwe these days.

[00:09:33.91] spk_1:
You don’t know your boy That sounds that is your Indian name. Yes. Uh, leading bird. Tell the story of how

[00:09:34.78] spk_3:
you got that name. We’ll come back to you. Don’t. I will come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t think this is a good story. How you got that name?

[00:11:01.71] spk_4:
So my tribe, the Lumbee Tribal North Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? That’s right. So But when I when I was working in North Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in North Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh, North Carolina. And so But I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and Thio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, If you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um And so I met with this guy in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado, where this this Native Health Conference. So it was all, ah, tell the story in the book is quite, um, hilarious and in many ways let the Indian of our session where I was feeling excited about, you know, the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I, you know, had such colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native named Johnny Benesch A which means leading bird. So I was very honored. And my first thought was, What kind of bird, right? Am I a little Tweety bird or in my mighty eagle Republicans? Right. Birds are vest. So, um, he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V formation. Um, And as I when I left, I studied of these birds and they’re

[00:11:22.06] spk_3:
the leading bird I’m deleting. There is leading Berg.

[00:12:02.84] spk_4:
I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when I when I learned these characteristics, I just felt really I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life. And I think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:19.17] spk_3:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered. They’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other. But they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they say, I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they could be injured, right?

[00:12:41.69] spk_4:
It’s there. It’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, GPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more, but I think when they’re when someone is down are you know there’s an injury or whatever may happen? They there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our Inter related, you know, being inter related

[00:13:19.31] spk_3:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is this is an indigenous belief that we are all related. And that’s what it makes me think of the birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other?

[00:13:35.43] spk_4:
Yes. Oh, there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, ah, you know, we are We are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset, or world view from sort of the American individualistic type of mindset. Um, we also have connected to that viewpoint is on this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things all of the decisions and that we’re making today are gonna impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family. But also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work.

[00:14:47.45] spk_3:
And you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility. For as you said, we’re thriving and suffering together. Um, what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:15:03.48] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think

[00:15:04.78] spk_3:
Are we all responsible?

[00:15:18.54] spk_4:
We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks we, you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes,

[00:15:22.47] spk_3:
like the natural path of progress. Absolutely Way. It’s learned,

[00:15:59.68] spk_4:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher Columbus, for example. And so but the realities are that colonization, um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we as as the people have not come to terms with we. Actually, we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. S o the dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, I refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies. As as a nation, they show up in our policies are systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power,

[00:16:27.93] spk_3:
least naturally, to your point about us, them organizations

[00:17:12.06] spk_4:
Absolutely. So you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate you know, the dynamics of colonization. Because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. Ah, would you look at, um asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety net and vulnerable communities on when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend. Did you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening? Because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundations said on $800 billion of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, healthcare, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the RS Thio payout 5% of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on Lee, a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community

[00:18:18.61] spk_3:
Let’s assume it’s I know there are a lot of foundations that use that 5% minimum as their maximum, so that 05% of that would be $40 billion. So the counter is bad, but there’s $40 billion coming each year. Could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And, you know, we’re trying to preserve this, uh, this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were tryingto no, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say

[00:18:29.13] spk_4:
right, right? And,

[00:18:30.24] spk_1:
you know, I

[00:19:43.06] spk_4:
think that I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5% when Congress had acted that 5% rule, um, it actually began at 6% I believe in 1974 and then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy, the wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break. And so that that, uh, I rs minimum payout of 5% That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants. And so you know, So it is sort of, ah, the other thing to explore if you are with a 95% that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and instructed extractive industries that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation.

[00:20:14.59] spk_3:
Yes, you make the point often, uh, that often right, those investments are in our in industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission, and in fact, funding. Um, the, uh there’s something else that there’s your estimate, Thea. The way the money is. All right. Well, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s

[00:20:14.96] spk_1:
there’s a lot

[00:20:31.41] spk_3:
that organizations congee gained by hiring people of color. Indigenous people. What? Ah, and very few. Your rare exception. Um, working in found eight doing foundation work. What’s the make explicit? Those, uh, those advantages.

[00:20:57.22] spk_4:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely, um, exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 Native Americans that I could find. We kind of found each other. What year was that? This was in 2005. That’s along. And we are now. Ah, there’s about 25 of us now. The last time I counted. So

[00:20:57.65] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:20:57.85] spk_4:
there’s there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations. And I think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:10.23] spk_1:
and not only

[00:21:10.59] spk_3:
foundations but non profits. NGOs doing the groundwork, absolutely foundations of the funders on Dove course. Some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but But for the nonprofits doing the day to day work A CZ well represent the communities that you’re

[00:21:25.93] spk_4:
absolutely. It kind of makes sense right and felt, You know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staffs. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit our foundation, too tohave folks that work there, who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, um, you know about the problem in a different way is gonna create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies that that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes on board meetings where decisions were being made and always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room. And I hear these decisions are these conversations, and I’m thinking like, Oh, my God, like you know, this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother mar my family that’s still living in poverty. Decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah,

[00:22:58.01] spk_3:
yeah. Um, and ah, I I thought of what I was gonna ask you about. Just comment on the foundation wise, we do see some foundation saying that they’re gonna spend down their assets. Um, I wouldn’t say it’s, ah, needle moving. But you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. Um, was Paul Allen was it? Ah, not pull out the Microsoft. Uh, I think the Microsoft founder co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was Paul Allen. Okay, um, I was thinking of Steve Allen to come. You’ll come. That’s why I thought No, it wasn’t him, but was Paul Allen. I think his foundation’s one, But

[00:23:17.21] spk_1:
there are some. So we do

[00:23:20.24] spk_3:
hear some glimmers. Ah, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle.

[00:23:24.27] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I mean, I think deciding to spend down is ah is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now if we actually release the funds or

[00:23:34.56] spk_1:
even if

[00:24:22.80] spk_4:
you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um, there there’s a lot of amazing work happening. Um, right now that is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh, the 5% that is being invested only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so I think, you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards the foundation should think about. What is the value of you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like, what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways, it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of, you know, um, way of thinking.

[00:24:36.81] spk_3:
If this was CNN right now, I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times have to work on that. A talking alternative we need. We need video capture and screens and everything in your video in your interview with David Bernstein, New York Times. Uh, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color, philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:24:54.05] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:25:49.89] spk_4:
You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail. Um, we hurt the hardest. And, uh, but there’s just something so magical about him. And since a private I have about my community because we’re so resilient, like, regardless of, um, you know, all of the trauma of the colonization the, um, you know, genocide, stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. And so there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would if I weren’t native. I will be interested to know, Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the front lines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom. And you know often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, are see strategies. Or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up. And I’m like, Wow, we’ve been doing that are in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:08.00] spk_3:
Is there still a Lumbee community in Robson Robson County?

[00:26:11.69] spk_4:
Yes, there are. There are about 60,000 enroll members and a Lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County.

[00:26:23.86] spk_3:
Okay, Now have in North Carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in. Can I be in a number?

[00:26:25.25] spk_4:
You know, we were very inclusive. We we’ll take will adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. T officially enrolled.

[00:26:34.75] spk_1:
That’s a stretch

[00:26:35.59] spk_3:
for an Italian American with North Carolina license plate on driver’s license. All right, um,

[00:26:42.91] spk_1:
you Ah, you talk about,

[00:27:23.48] spk_3:
um you know, I guess. I mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out. Ah, you know, piecemeal. Um, the the imbalance. You know, the grant, even the even the word, you know, the granting right. It’s like some, uh, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When, uh, your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s It’s it’s a It’s a right equally held by all.

[00:27:27.54] spk_4:
Yet, you know, I think power and money a lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right and equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from lens of equality. So we’re gonna have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat.

[00:28:02.24] spk_3:
So that’s not gonna happen,

[00:28:03.24] spk_1:
you know, that’s that’s highly unlikely.

[00:28:06.11] spk_3:
Like infant is really small. Unlikely.

[00:28:15.58] spk_4:
You know, it’s a hard thing for people thio to think about it, especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I’m I have less than I’ve had So, um, but, you know, we II want to think about this abundance mind frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging. There’s who have not been privileged by that.

[00:28:41.80] spk_3:
So I love that you. You approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break.

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software

[00:28:45.74] spk_1:
in the new

[00:30:19.28] spk_2:
year Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. It’s built for you. Their customer service is excellent, so they’ll take care of you and they have a free 60 day trial. You get that on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin. Now, time for Tony’s Take two four must have to start your planned giving in 2020 um, the video at tony-martignetti dot com has four things that you need to have in place for you to kick off. Planned giving in 2020. I’ll be more than happy to give you one right here and then for the video for the other three. You got to go to the video. Um, you have to be at least five years old. People have to be confident that your organization is going to live longer than them because they’re gonna be including you in their estate plan. Most likely there will. And they need to know that you’re gonna survive them so that there could be a gift for your organization when they die. So in order to have that confidence or for your donors to feel that confidence about your longevity, I like to see at least five years of history in the organization and for the other three, Um, check the video, and that is at tony-martignetti. Dotcom four must have to start your plan giving in 2020. That is Tony’s Take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Our first entry in the innovators. Siri’s.

[00:30:25.90] spk_3:
Now I wanna go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar Villanueva.

[00:30:30.47] spk_1:
See, I thought

[00:30:31.29] spk_3:
he would pronounce his name. Edgar and I was wrong. And But that’s that’s why I said Edgar.

[00:30:38.00] spk_1:
But it’s Edgar Edgar Edgar Villanueva and de colonizing

[00:30:40.03] spk_3:
wealth. Welcome back, you two go for

[00:30:42.08] spk_4:
Thanks for having me. Okay?

[00:30:43.29] spk_1:
Just will be here. Yes. Yeah. You haven’t done anything that

[00:30:46.79] spk_3:
would lead me to shut your mic off. Um, it hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened.

[00:30:51.74] spk_1:
So let’s let’s start getting ah positive, Okay.

[00:31:03.37] spk_3:
You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, and, uh, I thought you came up, like five short. I mean that we have only 12 status if

[00:31:08.21] spk_1:
you want to. If you want to share power, you’re gonna have to

[00:31:16.07] spk_3:
have you got to step it up with 12 steps or or even 15. You have more than the colonizer, but but

[00:31:16.83] spk_1:
the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical.

[00:31:30.80] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s Ah, there’s ah, quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on

[00:31:35.14] spk_3:
is a prime number. Got that event right? That’s that’s I don’t know why.

[00:31:40.12] spk_4:
So, you know, But I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no ah, linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:32:04.50] spk_3:
lets them out for us. Just list all seven and then we’ll talk about

[00:32:07.26] spk_4:
I’m sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair.

[00:32:15.64] spk_5:
Okay. Um,

[00:32:16.61] spk_1:
so you’ve been thinking

[00:32:17.17] spk_3:
about this for a while in this? Uh, I just did. I admire the I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:32:51.25] spk_4:
Yes. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to, uh, just re ground myself in my values and, um and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and in philanthropy, who were, I think of very four thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country in to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this? Um And then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is, ah, method that’s used in schools. And I’m in the criminal justice system to help people deal with with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ah, model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:33:56.08] spk_3:
I saw ah grieving Ah, you say everybody I mean, because of our inter relatedness, where we all need to grieve, including people of color indigenous, those who have been oppressed.

[00:34:48.73] spk_4:
Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm in the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people? And, you know, I think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that Ah, that colonization and the idea of white supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s, ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book, um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being American. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and it feel connected to that in some way.

[00:35:21.33] spk_3:
Um and, um, the ah, the thing you talk about two is, uh, the orphans orphans. You say that? Ah, those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans? How’s that?

[00:36:55.80] spk_4:
I call them orphans. This is a term Moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from, given up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe thio this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that, there’s been a lost of sort of that that mother country for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know I’m not anti American, let me be very clear about that This is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud, TB, a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, um, you know, and and and not, um, that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your green appearance or from, or the language. They spoke with the culture they have. Um, and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities, that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. And if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You

[00:36:56.09] spk_1:
said a few

[00:36:56.41] spk_3:
minutes ago that white supremacy is not a riel. Not really. All right,

[00:37:00.09] spk_6:
Well,

[00:37:05.06] spk_3:
why why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really

[00:37:07.87] spk_4:
Well Well, the idea that that ah, you know, a certain group of people white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this wasn’t on ideology that was created. Um, in order, Thio be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been, you know, an idea that is not really, but we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, I was taught that, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if I were to behave or address or act, I’m in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was gonna be, ah, better thing for me. And so we know that the idea white supremacy is you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief.

[00:38:08.65] spk_3:
All right, Um and you’re you also encourage non profits and teams toe have ah, grieving space we’re talking about. We’re talking about grieve. We have about a minute before break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:38:23.18] spk_4:
Yes. So you know, these these steps are personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think, especially those of us working in the non profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave space. Space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into Philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities,

[00:39:06.61] spk_3:
the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But de colonizing wealth dot com That’s where you go. So I gotta take this break.

[00:39:34.75] spk_1:
Tell us, Start with the video at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant porting. You talk to them, have them

[00:39:36.36] spk_3:
watch the video and if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay.

[00:39:44.49] spk_1:
Tony, that m a

[00:39:53.06] spk_3:
slash now back to Edgar Edgar Villanueva. See, I practiced saying Edgard because I just assumed on. I thought, now I’m sure he uses Edgar, just

[00:39:57.42] spk_4:
like editor Allan Poe.

[00:39:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, I know, I know. I understand. That’s the, uh, uh, your name

[00:40:11.56] spk_3:
your Taliban ass anyway, And I I, uh I assumed we know what makes you know what happens when you make assume, make an ass of you and me, uh, so Okay,

[00:40:15.26] spk_5:
uh, Edgar, um, I

[00:40:15.37] spk_1:
like the idea

[00:40:30.21] spk_3:
of the grieving space. You know, acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds. 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how oppressive is that?

[00:40:38.83] spk_4:
Very oppressive. And in philanthropy is, especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of like, how this wealth was a master secrets that were then these families that you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward. As she said.

[00:41:24.56] spk_3:
And that was the next step in terms of, uh, your next step apologizing. Recognizing, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the Reynolds Kate be Is it Kate Pickett, Be Reynolds Foundation, Reynolds Tobacco, North Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not gonna ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we talked about in the in the steppe, apologizing.

[00:41:31.91] spk_4:
Absolutely. There was. There was no acknowledgment of that. And, uh, chapter one of the book is called My Arrival on the Plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of R. J. Reynolds and so really, literally and metaphorically, I was I was working there, but no, there was. There’s no acknowledgment of that. And I think you see that, you know, in North Carolina recently, the chancellor of you of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners. What most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition.

[00:42:28.10] spk_3:
Yeah, acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t Johns Hopkins University do something similar? That that they had their founders were, uh, Johns Hopkins. Their founders were slave owners,

[00:42:30.73] spk_4:
I think. Georgetown University,

[00:42:34.47] spk_3:
Georgetown. Sorry. Thank you. Okay, Georgetown, they were

[00:42:35.48] spk_1:
pretty, right? There were priests,

[00:42:37.76] spk_3:
priest founders that were slave owners.

[00:42:41.71] spk_4:
That’s right. Actually, no. Ah, friend of mine who lives in New Orleans is ah, black woman who is a descendant, um, and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together, talking about the history, talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And, you know, this has been a very ah healing, I think Ford, the university, and but also front for my friend Karen, who is now having that You know that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors.

[00:43:25.68] spk_3:
You talk a good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um, Canada, You

[00:43:26.14] spk_1:
got to get the book way. Can’t. Can’t tell all

[00:43:28.56] spk_3:
these stories. I mean, I know what listeners I know. I know you love stories as much as I do, but

[00:43:32.32] spk_1:
there’s not enough time to just get the damn book.

[00:43:34.26] spk_3:
Just goto de colonizing both dot com For Pete’s sake. You

[00:43:41.40] spk_1:
go right now. If you’re listening Live, Where are you? But Pepsi? Schenectady, Uh, Nottingham, Maryland. Just go to

[00:43:47.80] spk_3:
de colonizing wealth dot com. Um, okay. Listening. You talk about mm. Empathic and generative listening.

[00:45:07.26] spk_4:
Right. So, you know, often when we when we moved to a process like this, we feel bad. We’ve apologized. Um, the default, sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, Okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so But before you move for an act, you just need to Paul’s toe, actually. Listen, tony, listen and learn. So thio for nonprofits, You know, I ran a non profit. I’ve worked in flame 34 14 years. When I asked non profits, What is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always I just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda. And on the non profit, they’re gonna be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience. And their history is just gonna make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is thio two to stop at times toe also, Listeninto let others be hard.

[00:45:57.50] spk_3:
Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Yeah, listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of donors. Andi, I know you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s That’s the beginning of a relationship, is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing, um, to whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees. Um, there there’s a lot to be learned. Goes back to the value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Um, Okay. So relation You want us to Ah, you want to relate?

[00:46:01.93] spk_1:
Let me ask

[00:46:05.23] spk_3:
you. Ah, you read, um, how to win friends and influence. People say dozens of times. Doesn’t I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book? You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Ah, Dale Carnegie’s book. Dozens of times.

[00:46:19.68] spk_4:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um I stole from the library of Ah. My mom was a domestic worker and she was carrying for ah, frail, elder elderly man handle this vast library. So ended up with this little book that you

[00:46:34.86] spk_3:
stole from an infirm.

[00:46:36.32] spk_4:
I believe. You know, I feel terrible about book Haunts me to this day. So this is a public.

[00:46:42.17] spk_1:
Didn’t even think to leave, like, 20 bucks or something on the table and have

[00:47:09.42] spk_4:
it if I had it at that. All right, Um, so hopefully this is my my way of giving back. This is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the wouldn’t take away from me in that book. Ah, is ah is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um, is when you’re when you’re talking to folks. People just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um, and if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend like, Well, Edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if I did

[00:47:22.68] spk_1:
it right, and so yeah,

[00:47:23.33] spk_4:
it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are, um, you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just gonna really take you much further and building a relationship

[00:47:45.83] spk_3:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking You

[00:47:46.00] spk_1:
have you have an

[00:47:50.78] spk_3:
example of? Ah, um a ah, like building design. Like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of offices.

[00:48:08.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas of, like, the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edges. Absolutely. Foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office, right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And, um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:48:40.37] spk_3:
Take a break. When we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational designed to instead of just office designed

[00:49:34.86] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation you’ve got your best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists, especially in the non profit space and other media, of course. Bloggers. Um uh, what were the other examples of media besides generals? Um, of course, any of the, uh, webinars that you could your expertise could be portrayed in webinars seminars, conferences. They can build those relationships. That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. They’re at turn hyphen to dot ceo. We’ve got butt loads, more time for de colonizing wealth.

[00:49:38.62] spk_3:
Now, we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both dotcom get the thing, get the book. Um, in terms of designing organizations ah, more egalitarian. You’d like to see

[00:49:52.48] spk_4:
absolutely so one of the steps the book is represent. And would

[00:49:56.54] spk_1:
you look

[00:49:56.95] spk_4:
at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part this sector? We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the CEO positions. Folks who really hold power organizations. So

[00:50:14.18] spk_1:
what are

[00:50:25.38] spk_4:
the one of the ideas that I put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many nonprofits. Funders actually are requiring this of their non profit that their funding, Um, and many cover organizations that receive government funding federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the service’s of theirs. Non profits

[00:50:53.40] spk_3:
again be representative. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a That’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:50:58.48] spk_4:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:51:12.01] spk_1:
And there are some

[00:51:12.47] spk_3:
examples use like the Novo Foundation in the book. They have, ah, women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something. Turning tow this building and and the decisions being made by women who are gonna be using the building.

[00:51:56.45] spk_4:
Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation. I really appreciate Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of Doesn’t over foundation wrote the Ford to my book. And they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens Thio folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be.

[00:52:07.49] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds

[00:52:08.62] spk_3:
for five years or seven years guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123 you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment,

[00:52:25.53] spk_4:
right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is Ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding. You know, folks can be you can focus on building a relationship versus oh, I’ve got to meet these certain objectives so I can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna you know how I’m gonna pay the salaries next year really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities

[00:53:00.35] spk_3:
and planning and comm plans that are being one only one or two years. Um, s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing, um, investing.

[00:53:33.04] spk_4:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for, um, for the public. Good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle on issues. If we’re supporting with, the 5% are right hand. Really good work. You know, Michigan, late at work. But in our left hand, we are investing 95% of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so, you know, they’re great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation, for example, who just recently declared that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus, is going to be used and support their mission.

[00:53:51.22] spk_3:
Yeah, on again, other examples in the book and, uh, we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, Actually, um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:54:29.31] spk_4:
the final step is repair all of us who were philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values.

[00:54:47.44] spk_3:
Okay, so I’ll give you last 30 seconds, Uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by What? You what? You talk about your mom?

[00:54:57.70] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving when we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or fix, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so I do you talk about my mom in the book who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and how to run a ministry out of our church to support Children.

[00:55:22.40] spk_1:
Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry

[00:55:24.24] spk_3:
just got got to get the book. You got to read

[00:55:25.63] spk_4:
the last ministry. And so is the giving of time. Treasure and talent not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities and ways that are, um, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists.

[00:55:37.74] spk_3:
Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva Thank you so much. Thank you

[00:55:42.24] spk_4:
for having me on tony.

[00:55:43.11] spk_2:
Real pleasure. Next week. Personalized Philanthropy With Steve Myers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But

[00:55:58.88] spk_1:
Coco Mat in

[00:55:59.36] spk_2:
Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producers

[00:56:35.02] spk_1:
Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for November 30, 2018: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
That’s the new book by Edgar Villanueva. His thesis: The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. Let’s talk to him and find out what he’s thinking.

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into hypo gargle aziz asia if you tickle to me with the idea that you missed today’s show and there’s a footnote. Number one on hyper gargle ist asia d colonizing wealth. That’s the new book by edgar villanueva. His thesis. The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy. We’ll talk to him and find out what he’s thinking. Tony steak too. No video responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant by wagner. Cps guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us, tony credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine it’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio edgar villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the andress family fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at grand valley state university and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot foundation for public education. He’s held leadership roles that kate be reynolds charitable trust in north carolina and marguerite kissy foundation in seattle. Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north carolina. You’ll find him at d colonizing wealth dot com and at villanueva edgar and welcome to studio. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october, october sixteenth. Yes, all right. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times. Yes. Congratulations on that prep prep prep you for non-profit radio. Right? Right. I’m ready. All your all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So that’s all culminated here. I promised listeners. Footnote one footnote one. Teo. Hyper guard. Alice the asia, of course, anybody listens to show knows that i opened with something funny like that, a disease, every single show. But in edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle ist asia. So this is the first time over four hundred shows that thea, that the guest unknowingly has provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You don’t know what we do that every single show? Um no, you don’t know that. I didn’t know that i’m not listening to non-profit video. It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. D colonizing wealth. You’re you’re you’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah, you’re raising some eyebrows. No one told me yesterday that i was the colin kaepernick of philanthropy, which i was like, i haven’t thought about it that way, but that’s not all so bad getting closer to the mike so people can hear you, you know, just get not almost intimate with it. Um, i used to call myself the charlie rose of charities until he blew that gig for me and how he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer because you talk about colonizer virus and exploitation and division like these are bad things. Yes, they are bad. Okay. What? Ah, what is the what? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to d colonized so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? You know, i have this firewall that were completely disconnected from wall street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes in systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate america. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways. Not in the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people. Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated, you know, especially i’m from the south, north carolina. We’ll talk about that. They’re absolutely was. A legacy of slavery is stolen lands that helped contribute to the mass of wealth. And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans. Yeah, so, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exist in our communities, you know, because colonization, as we often think about it, as something that happened five years ago in north carolina, especially where i’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparentsgeneration, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices. But we are areas, a resilient people. And those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to solve today as a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table. You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe north carolina. That’s right. Robertson county, north carolina, which which is not too far from where i own. I owned a home in pinehurst, which is a little north and west, i think of of robertson county lumber. So the lumbee tribe, i assume the lumber river is named for the lundy’s and lumberton the town that’s right name for lundy’s right so lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river fr african first yeah the river came first and so certainly the river came from i think the name of the river came right river’s been there much longer okay yes so we’re you know hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north carolina that i came together to form the lumpy try and named ourselves after that river um and we’re going to comeback teo native americans as the original philanthropists but that that struck me a lot i think you you say you say that the end of the at the end of books right where i caught it i’m whichever like a minute a half or so before the break so just we’re introducing this we got playing time together wealth you say divides us controls us, exploits us. What’s that about? So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, i say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has calls tarm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed, thie acts that can result as as a result of that, to exploit the land and to exploit people are or what? That’s what has calls the harmon itself. So the case that i’m going to make in this but that i’m making in this book, is that wealth money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that could actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven sixteenth steps to that second half your book. All right, we’ll take our first break pursuant. They’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and practices to your non-profit. It’s free as all the pursuant resources are you’re accustomed to this? You know this. You will find it on the listener landing page, which is where it’s always been. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please. Now back to don gani monisha. That is your indian name. Did i by any chance say that correctly? I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my ojibwe these days. You don’t know your tea boy. That sounds, but that is your indian name. Ah, leading bird. Tell the story of how you got that name. We’ll come backto. Don’t. We’ll come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t you think this is a good story? How you got that name? So my tribe, the lumbee tribal north carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming. You are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? Your mom’s right. So but when i when i was working in north carolina and native communities, i went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in north carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in raleigh, north carolina, and so, but i was very curious to meet with this medicine. Man and tio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, if you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give us a spiritual name or a native name on dh. So i met with this guy in the marriott hotel in denver, colorado, where this this native health conference. So it was all ah, tell the story in the book is quite hilarious and in many ways let the end of our session where i was feeling excited about you know the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because i, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native name. Naghani benesch a which means leading bird s o. I was very honored, and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right, am i a little tweety bird or a my mighty eagle? Silicon, right? Birds are vest. So he explained to me that i was the type of bird that flies in a v formation on daz i when i left, i studied of these birds, and they’re the leading bird. I’m deleting glamarys leading burghdoff. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the v formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands. It’s co dependents and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a v formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when i when i learned these characteristics, i just felt really i was really, really happy and content about this name because i do see that’s the type of leadership that i model in my everyday life. And i think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector. You explain how the birds communicate, which i’ve always wondered. They’re they’re just close enough that they can feel the vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re going toe bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they and i guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they going to injured, right? Yes, sir, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, you know, gps built into their bodies. And the other thing i recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, i want to learn research that a little bit more, but i think when they’re when someone is down, are you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen they there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our inter related, you know, being inter related exactly our interdependence. Now, this is a this is an indigenous, the belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of the birds also working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how? Explain this, this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other. Yeah, so there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, you know, we are we are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset or world view from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things, all of the decisions and that we’re making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that i am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far ford about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work and you encourage us two each that that each one of us takes responsibility for a cz you said were thriving and suffering together. What i’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that, yes. So you know, i think how are we all responsible? We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks, when we you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes, like the natural path of progress. Absolutely way. It’s learned right. We have holidays, you know, for for christopher columbus, for example. And so. But the realities are that colonization was something that was terrible, that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we, as as the people, have not come to terms with. We actually we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so i think we’re still dealing with the consequences on dso. The dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, i refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies as as a nation, they show up in our policies. Our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power the least naturally to your point about latto them organizations. Absolutely. So. You know, i think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, you know, the dynamics of colonization, because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth when you look at asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety in that vulnerable communities on. And when you look at who gets to allocate managing spend id, you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundation said on eight hundred billion dollars of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the irs. Teo payout five percent of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on ly. A small percentage is actually leaving the doors. There would be an invested in community. Let’s assume it’s i know there are a lot of foundations that use that five percent minimum as their maximum, so that zoho five percent of that would be forty billion dollars. So the counter is sabat. There’s forty billion dollars coming each year could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative, and you know, we’re trying to preserve this thiss foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know if we if we spent in the next two years the eight hundred billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future. Just future. Years and other generations were tryingto way want to be around for in perpetuity? The foundations would say, right, right. And you know, i think i think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that five percent when congress had acted that five percent rule, it actually began at six percent, i believe in nineteen seventy four and then in nineteen seventy six was lower to five percent. The reason that congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are our wealthy the wealthy one percent, or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break? And so that that irs minimum pay all of five percent? That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants and so you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with the ninety five percent that is not leaving the doors. If the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that ninety five percent is then being invested to generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up in harmful and extract extractive industries that our counter intuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point often that often, right, those investments are in our industries that are hurting the vory populations that foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission and in fact, funding the something else that was asked about thea the way the money is. All right, well, we’ll come back to it if i think of it. there’s there’s a lot that organisations khun gained by hiring people of color indigenous people what on dh very few your rare exception working in found eight doing foundation what what’s the what make explicit that those uh those advantages sure so you’re right i’m absolutely on exception i think when i started in philanthropy i was one of ten native americans that i could find we kind of found each other in what year was that this was in two thousand five that’s along and we are now there’s about twenty five of us now the last time i counted so yeah there’s there’s you know an amazing opportunity for foundations and i think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in to two foundations that have lived experience and not only foundations but non-profits now the ngos doing the ground work absolutely foundations of the funders on dove course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork we’re seeing that emerging but for the non-profits doing the day to day work a cz well represent the communities that you’re absolutely kind of makes sense right and felt you know it’s funny because some foundations actually require That of non-profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non-profit or foundation to have folks that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, you know, about the problem in a different way is going to create some proximity that i think is going to just inform strategies that make sense. And i can’t tell you the number of times i’ve been in strategic planning processes, on board meetings, where decisions were being made and always carry my mother my family with me, you know, in spirit into the room. And i hear these decisions are these conversations and i’m thinking like, oh, my god! Like, you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother more or my family. That’s still living. Brovey decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah, yeah. Dahna and, ah, i i thought of what i was going to ask you about or just comment on the foundation wise. We do see some foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Hyre i wouldn’t say it’s needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. You know, um, was paul allen, was it? Ah, not pull out the microsoft, i think. The microsoft founder co founder who recently died. I think his foundation was paul allen. Okay, i was thinking steve allen to come, but will come. That’s why i thought no, it wasn’t him, but was paul allen? I think his foundations one, but there are some. So we do here, some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle. Yeah, i think i mean, i think deciding to spend down is ah, is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now, if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more there. There’s a lot of amazing work happening right now. That is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color, which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know the the five percent that is being invested, only seven to eight percent of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so i think, you know, i think it’s a conversation that the boards of foundations should think about. What is the value of, you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity like what is? Is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels i can see that as being a very selfish type of, you know, ah, way of thinking. If this was cnn right now, i would play a video of you. But i don’t i don’t have that. But in your in your times get to work on that talking alternative. We need we need video capture and screens and everything in your video. In your interview with david bernstein new york times, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities. Tto learn about solutions. Yeah, you know, i think that i think of, you know, people of color. Indigenous folks is being the canaries in the coal mine. Sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail, we hurt the hardest. And but there’s just something so magical about sense of private i have about my community because we’re so resilient, like regardless of, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the, you know, genocide, stolen land. We still remain intact as the people on dh. So there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that i would if i weren’t native. I will be interested to know. Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom and you know, often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, rc strategies, or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and i’m like, well, we’ve been doing that aren’t in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster. Is there still a lumbee community in robson robson county? Yes, there are. There are about sixty thousand enrolled members in the lumpy tribe. The bulk of our community is still in robinson county. Okay, now i have a north carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in-kind being remember. You know, we were very inclusive. We we we’ll take it. We’ll adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. Shin ta. Officially enrolled. That’s a stretch for an italian american with just north carolina. License plate on driver’s licence. All right. You you talk about, you know, i guess, i mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it, and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out, you know, piecemeal. The the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the even the word. You know, the granting, right? It’s like some i was like, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s it’s it’s a it’s a right, equally held by all. Yeah, you know, i think power in money. A lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from linds of equality. So we’re going to have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity is going to actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know that sze, highly unlikely, like infant is really small. Unlikely? You know, it is a hard thing for people, teo to think about it. Especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, i i have less than i’ve had, so but, you know, wi i i wantto think about this abundance, my frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to tow work together too. You make sure that we are privileging there’s who have not been privileged by that. So i love that you you approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break when you see piela. If you need help with your nine ninety, perhaps, or your books properly managed have you got your books? Are you thinking about a c p a change? Maybe in twenty nineteen, talk to the wagner partner. You know him? Yeah. Huge tomb. He’s been a guest. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust you. He’ll be honest about whether wagner cpas is going to be able to help you. Accounting wise place to get started. Weinger cpas dot com now for tony’s, take two. I didn’t do a video this week. I was so relaxed over the thanksgiving holiday, including the weekend, the four days. I just didn’t think of it. I mean, i’ve been doing weekly videos for i’m sure much longer than you’re interested in watching. It’s been years. I just do a weekly or, you know, maybe every other week. And i was so relaxed over the over the four days that a cz i’ve encouraged you to be, you know, take time for yourself while i was following her own advice. I just didn’t even think to do a video that week for this for this week. So i hope that you took time made time. You know, you have your not going to find this time. You have to make it. I hope you made time for yourself and you are as relaxed as i was. And you forgot to do something that you should have done, aunt. Hope you’d get in trouble for it. I’m not in trouble. It’s time for the live listener love. Ah, and where’s it going? Let’s let’s go abroad. Were in sao paulo, brazil, were in moscow. We’re in seoul. Ah, and we’re disconnected. You know that’s not fair. That’s not very nice. So cool. Live listener loved to brazil, russia and tio seoul, south korea, on your haserot. Um oh, i knew i knew brazil was brazil. I don’t have my cici. I’ll just have to say, listen, love to you. Love goes out and bringing in abroad. I mean domestic. Back into the states. Tampa, florida, new york, new york, seattle, nottingham, maryland. Cool nottingham. That’s a new one. Welcome, seattle. Welcome, schenectady. Of course. Sorry about that before, but pepsi upstate new york who lets a new yorkers checking in. And boston, massachusetts and wilmington, north carolina. All right. North carolina special live love teo, shout out to north carolina. Um, and the podcast pleasantries. The vast majority of our over thirteen thousand listeners each week. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. I don’t know. You might listen. A couple days later, you might listen. A month later, you might binge. Listen to all your podcast. A month later. Whenever you’re checking us out. Thank you for putting us in your podcast schedule. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Now i want to go back to ed gar villanueva. Edgar villanueva. See, i thought he would pronounce his name edgar and i was wrong. And but that’s that’s what i said, edgar. But it’s edgar weinger villanueva and de colonizing wealth. Welcome back, you two. Go for thanks for having me. Okay. Just will be here. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. It hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s let’s start getting ah, positive. Okay. You know, the second roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. And i thought you came up, like, five short. I mean that we have another twelve status. I mean, if you want to, if you wantto share power, you’re gonna have to have you got to step it up with twelve steps or or even fifteen. You know, you have more than the colonizer, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical. Yeah. You know, it’s funny because i did have some resistance, teo having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s ah, there’s a quick and easy fix. If i just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on. Was a prime number. Got that event, right? Trying that’s that’s i don’t know why. Yeah, so what? You know, but i did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me. Where are you? Lets them out for us. Just list all seven. And then we’ll talk about, um sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while in this? Ah, i just did. I admire the admire the thinking that goes into this. Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that i’m working in and the disconnection that i felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community, teo just re ground myself in my values and on in-kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and into my community that i could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in non-profits and in philanthropy who were i think of very for thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this on dh then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restored of justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used to schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong, to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ahh model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with with the offender, with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong. To get to a place of truth and reconciliation. I saw ah, grieving. Ah, you say everybody. I mean because of our interrelated nous, where we all need to grieve, including the people of color indigenous, you know those who have been oppressed? Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened? What the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of describe mint too that the harmon, the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people. And, you know, i think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that, ah, that colonization and the idea why supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this side idea of being american. And i think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see, these commercials for these dna tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from, and they feel connected to that in some way. Um, and the the thing you talk about two is the orphans, orphans. You say that those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans. How’s that you called them orphans? This is a term moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is. It’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from giving up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe tio, this individualistic way of being in america. And so, with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country for lots of white folks in a loss of identity. Because although you know i’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that. This is the greatest country in the world, very proud tbe a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, you know, and and and not that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparent’s or from or the language they spoke of the culture they have. Um and i feel that that’s a loss for many white come unity’s that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. If we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a riel. Not really. All right, well, why why do you say that? Well, i mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really well. Well, the idea that that, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this was a kn ideology that was created in order, teo, be able to i have the types of oppressive movements and systems of policies they have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mind set that has been, you know, an idea that is not really. But we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, i was tall. That, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if i were to behave or dressed or act in a certain way, that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea why supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief. All right, um and your you also encourage non-profits and teams tohave a grieving space. But we’re talking about we’re talking about grief. We have about a minute before break, but then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in a in an office? Yes. So you know, these. These steps are personal, but it can be applied an organizational setting. And so i think, especially those of us working in the non-profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave. Ah, space space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, i share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities, the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book, you know, because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But d colonizing wealth dot com. That’s where you go. So i gotta take this break. Tell us. Start with the video at tony dahna em a slash tony tello’s. Then think to yourself, what companies can you ask to switch credit card processing to tello’s? Is it a company? Ohm maybe buy a boardmember family member, accompany already supporting you. Talk to them, have them watch the video. And if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay. Tony, that m a slash tony tello’s now back to ed gar edgar villanueva, c i practice saying edgard because i just assumed aunt, i thought no, i’m sure he uses that guard. Just like editor allan poe. Yeah, no, i know. I understand. That’s the it’s your name. You’re telling princessa anywhere, and i i assumed we know what makes you. You know what happens when you make a soon make an ass of u and me, so okay, uh, edgar, um, i like the idea of the grieving space. You know? Acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds a hundred percent nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how. How oppressive is that? Very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of, like, how this wealth was amassed, our secrets that are within these families that you know many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward, as she said. And and that was the next step in terms of you’re next time apologizing recognized, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the reynolds kate be is it kate? But can’t be reynolds foundation? Mean reynolds tobacco, north carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves? Hyre. I’m not gonna ask you if the kp reynolds foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the steppe. Apologizing? Absolutely. No, there was. There was no acknowledgment of that and chapter one of the book is called my arrival on the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of r. J. Reynolds. And so, really, literally and metaphorically i was i was working there, but no, there was there’s there’s no acknowledgment of that and i think you see that you know in north carolina recently the chancellor of you of the university of north carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners what most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition yeah acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t johns hopkins university to do something similar that that they had their founders were ah johns hopkins their founders were slave owners i think georgetown university georgetown sorry thank you okay georgetown they were pretty right there were priests priest founders that were slave owners that’s right actually no ah friend of mine who lives in new orleans is ah black woman who is a descendant on and was called to georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together talking about the history talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And you know, this has been very healing, i think, for the university and but also front for my friend karen, who is now having that you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors you talked a good bit about the reconciliation process in south africa. Canada. You got to get the book way. Can’t can’t tell all these stories. I mean, i know what listeners i know. I know you love stories as much as i do, but there’s not enough time to just get the damn book. Just goto de colonizing both dot com for pete’s sake, you go right now. If you’re listening live, where are yu? But pepsi? Schenectady, nottingham, maryland. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Okay, listening. You talk about and empathic and generative listening, right? So you know often when we when we moved to a process like this we feel bad. We’ve apologized the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, i’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so but before you before an act, you just need to paul’s toe. Actually. Listen toe, listen and learn. So teo, for for non-profits, you know, i ran a non-profit. I’ve worked inflame three for fourteen years. When i asked non-profits, what is the number? One thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always i just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda and the non-profits. They’re going to be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just it’s just going to make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be hard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is teo to stop a times toe also listen, until the others be hard. Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors and and i don’t know, you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s that’s the beginning of a relationship is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing two. Whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees there, there’s a lot to be learned. So she goes back to the value of bringing representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Okay, so relation you want us to ah, you want to relate? Let me ask you, you you you read how to win friends and influence people you say dozens of times doesn’t have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. What do you take away time after reading? Ah, dale carnegie’s book dozens of times. Well, you know, i still have an original copy from that i i stole from the library of ah. My mom was a domestic worker, and she was carrying for frill elder elderly man. They had a vast library, so i did it with this little book that you stole from an infirm. I didn’t. Natalie and i feel terrible about a book haunts me to this day. So this is a public didn’t even think to leave, like, twenty bucks or something on the table and have it if i had it at that. All right? Eh? So hopefully this is my my way of giving back is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the one takeaway for me in that book is, ah, what is really kind of connected to relating and listening is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. And if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend, like, well, edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if i didn’t say it and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are. You know, we i think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of filling heard and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just going really take you much further and building a relationship and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking you have you have an example of no, a, ah ah like building design like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices. Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas, like the colonizing virus, infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edge and absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices and you know the way they appear. Khun b. Super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources. You take a break when we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational. Designed to sort of just office designed our last break hoexter give the five part email many course debunking five myths. It’s five parts. Five myths. Think about all you think that all text donations are small and captain ten or fifteen dollars? No, sir. Not true. Do you think there’s a monthly or annual minimum? No, there’s lots of misinformation and hoexter give has a smarter, easier way to do text giving you raise more money. Get the email many course. Text. Npr to four four, four nine nine nine. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both. Dotcom. Get the thing. Get the book. In terms of designing organizations more egalitarian, you’d like to see absolutely so one of the steps that book is represent and what you look at the demographics of the non profit sector and especially in foundations that hard this sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power organizations. So what are the one of the ideas that i put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least fifty one percent or at least fifty percent of their board to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many non-profits funders actually are, you know, requiring this of their non-profit that their funding on dh many cover organizations that received government funding federal funding have thes types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of theirs. Non-profits again be representative? Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a that’s a stretch. Fifty one percent is the stretch. It’s a stretch. But you know, the conversation has has been xero about it. So i figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road. And there are some examples use, like the novo foundation in the book. They have a women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse something turning tow, this building and and decisions being made by women who are going to be using the building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation i really appreciate. Jennifer peter buffet, the founders of does novo foundation, wrote the foreword to my book, and they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work on dit shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens teo folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be. Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? They guaranteed you cite this in the book. No matter how much trouble you’re having in year one, two, three, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment, right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding you know folks can be. You can focus on building a relationship versus so i’ve got some meat, these certain objective. So i can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am i going to do? You know how i’m going to pay the salaries next year? Really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities and planning on dh khun plans that are being one only one or two years s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing investing. So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for for for the public good. Right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity. That that is really moving the needle issues. If we’re supporting with the five percent are right hand. Really good work. You know, mission related work. But in our left hand, we are investing. Ninety five percent of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive there, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so you know, they’re great foundations like the nathan cummings foundation, for example, who just recently declared that one hundred percent of their assets their entire corpus is going to be used on and support their mission. Yeah, on again, other examples in the book, and we have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, actually. So talk about your final step, which is the final step is repair all of us who are philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non-profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country? And so i think about looking your personal portfolio? Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values. Okay, so i’ll give you last thirty seconds in the way that the way i learned that natives are the original philanthropist was by what? You what, you talk about your mom? Yes. So, you know, i think a lot of giving what we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or folks, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so i do talk about my mom in the book, who was, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and and how to random ministry out of our church to support children? Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry just gotta you gotta get the book. You gotta read about it in history. And so is that giving of time, treasure and talent, not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists. Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com edgar villanueva. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on tony. Real pleasure next week. It may be the new book lean impact. I’m working on it for you. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital p matter-ness deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream tourney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers claire meyerhoff. Today, rob is the line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music that i’m hoping is going to come on very soon is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great you’re listening to the talking alternative network, you duitz to get you thinking. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor in center of attention. Tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show beyond potential live life. Your way on talk radio dot n y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates interested? 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