Tag Archives: philanthropy

Nonprofit Radio for June 13, 2022: Appealing To Tomorrow’s Major Donors

 

Nejeed Kassam: Appealing To Tomorrow’s Major Donors

There’s $50 trillion set to change hands in North America by 2050, enriching today’s millennials and Generation Z. Let’s talk about cultivation and fundraising strategies to reach these generations. My guest is Nejeed Kassam from Keela. (This is part of our coverage of #22NTC, hosted by NTEN.)

 

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[00:01:40.64] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with blended vaginitis. If you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show appealing to tomorrow’s major donors, There’s $50 trillion North America by 2050 enriching today’s millennials and generation Z let’s talk about cultivation and fundraising strategies to reach these generations. My guest is Najid Kassem from kila. This is part of our coverage of the 2022 non profit technology conference hosted by N 10 On Tony’s take two. Trepidation about new york city, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o And by 4th dimension technologies I. T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Just like 3D but they go one dimension deeper here is appealing to tomorrow’s major donors. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N. T. C 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10 with me now is Najid Qasem Ceo and founder of Kayla Najid, welcome back to nonprofit radio

[00:02:18.54] spk_1:
Thanks so much Tony and just for the folks that are listening because I might have a conflict I’m also on the board of directors at N10 and so really really proud to be part of the governance team at antenna and grateful to all of those of you who attended NTC this past, I guess almost a month ago now. Wonderful.

[00:02:31.14] spk_0:
Thank you for thank you for letting me know. We have Miko Whitlock and Jason shim. I have to see if they’re still on, but we’ve got, we’ve got Beth Kanter coming up. Um,

[00:02:32.86] spk_1:
I mean those are, those are my people, that’s my tribe. So you’ve got a great, great lineup coming up

[00:02:57.34] spk_0:
well. And you’re on the, you’re on the board of a terrific organization. Any sample ward is our technology and social media contributor. So she’s on many times a year sharing her wisdom on, on those subjects. We’re gonna talk about your seminar topic. Great transfer of wealth, how to reach the next generation.

[00:03:00.54] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:03:07.04] spk_0:
And you say you’re in your description that there’s a $50 trillion dollar transfer coming. What’s, what’s on the horizon?

[00:04:22.34] spk_1:
Well, you know, I think a lot of the topic is just about the fact that boomers and those, the generation, the great generations as I like to call them, are starting to, to, to find peace and move on to whatever happens in the next stage of our lives and you know, as well as they pass our grand, my grandparents passed away. Um, the last couple of years and you see that generation, my parents are starting to get older and thinking about the next, you know, the next chapter of their lives and so for those of us that are gen, x, gen y and I guess gen z is now, um, you know, a lot of money ultimately is going to transfer between generations, the boomers and their parents Postwar really generated absurd amounts, like, like, you know, unthinkable amounts of wealth and, and that’s all transferring and there’s a bunch of really interesting factors that are, that are going to change how giving is done. What’s gonna happen to that? Just the demographic, you know, general demographics in the United States and so, you know, a lot of money is going to change hands and, and that’s going to have a profound impact on getting because for a whole host of reasons we’ll talk about today.

[00:04:25.00] spk_0:
Yeah, So you’re expecting that millennials are going to grow the

[00:04:28.50] spk_1:
wealth that’s

[00:04:30.28] spk_0:
left to them. Well, if they spend it, then we’re hoping they’re gonna be giving it away because otherwise we have nothing to talk about it. If they’re all buying super yachts, then you and I may as well end right now, shut the mics

[00:04:43.04] spk_1:
off. I mean, for the sake of humanity, I really hope that they’re not just buying superyachts. How about that?

[00:04:49.40] spk_0:
Okay, right. Super yachts, private

[00:04:51.42] spk_1:
islands.

[00:04:53.18] spk_0:
You and I

[00:04:54.38] spk_1:
can’t possibly conceive of tony

[00:05:04.04] spk_0:
Okay, I hope not. I hope it doesn’t go that way. Alright. Otherwise, like I said, you know, you and I are done in three minutes. Okay, let’s go on the safe assumption on the humanitarian and um magnanimous assumption that uh, they’re gonna be giving a lot of this wealth away and, and they’ll be growing it too. Right?

[00:05:16.14] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:05:21.44] spk_0:
So you’re encouraging us to focus well before we get to the, you know, what to do, how to reach these folks.

[00:05:25.94] spk_1:
What

[00:05:41.94] spk_0:
are, what are some of these factors that you alluded to? Why are you expecting? Why? I think the, the estimates I’ve seen of transfer from baby boomers to millennials is not 50 trillion. I’ve seen 20-30 trillion or something like that. But you’re saying so in

[00:06:00.54] spk_1:
20, in 2014, um, um, For Boston College or some researchers at Boston College did a research and their prediction was 58 trillion would, would be transferred to the next gen. And that I think it includes gen x and gen y and ultimately gen z. So it’s not just millennials would be in the amount of 58 trillion, but when we’re talking 30 40 50 ultimately, I think it’s the same. It doesn’t really matter. It’s just a huge amount of money.

[00:06:28.14] spk_0:
It is. Okay. And so you’d like us to approach are younger donors Because we’re talking about, we’re talking about anybody 60 and under, where, you know, I

[00:06:41.44] spk_1:
would say like when does gen x start 50 and under maybe probably 55. I don’t know whatever gen x is. But yes, I think millennials are the the the most commonly, um, the most commonly thought about populist, But ultimately I think, you know, the age of the internet, the age of artificial intelligence, all of these kinds of things are, are, are ushering in new ways to engage donors. And I think that’s the crux of it.

[00:06:59.74] spk_0:
Okay, okay, now you’re using millennials and gen X interchangeably.

[00:07:18.54] spk_1:
No, No, No Gen X is what 1965-1980? Millennials are 1982, Some say 2000, some say 96. And then gen, Gen Z is people that are too young for me to think about.

[00:07:31.34] spk_0:
Okay, we’re not there yet. Um, Alright, what, what’s your, what’s your advice around talking to these? Um, millenials and gen xers?

[00:09:03.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I think you asked a great question previously and I’ll get to this question, but let’s talk about why they’re different because I think that’s really important to note. There’s a few factors that are, that are super interesting. The first one is, household sizes are smaller and you might think, why does that matter? Well, there are fewer millennials and gen Z s than there were their parents. And so between, I think it’s from 1962 around today or 2018 or whenever this data was published, Household size in the us has gone from 3.6 people per family to 3.1 people. Now that might be only half a person, but that’s a substantial number of people. And what it means is the people inheriting money are actually gonna be fewer, right in terms of their populace, but they’re gonna have more capacity in terms of their wealth. And so I think this data point is actually quite um, it’s interesting, it’s a little bit terrifying in some ways because you know, you’re gonna organizations, the sector as a whole is going to have to seek, you know, a a lot more from individual people as opposed to being able to diversify in the same way. I think that’s a very interesting piece of data and one that I think is going to change the dynamic, especially of major gifts because, you know, currently you think about the people, the high net worth individuals, the families, they care about health care or they care about this or there’s a lot of yours, Right? I think with that next generation there’s gonna be a lot of ants because there’s less people inheriting larger amounts of money. And I think excuse me, that’s quite profound. Don’t you think tony I

[00:09:25.94] spk_0:
do. I think I have a person, times tens, the many tens of millions of exactly that we have in this country that’s significant. Uh, you know, we’ve always thought of the average family as, you know, a family of four. All right, so you’re saying

[00:09:28.56] spk_1:
you’re

[00:09:41.34] spk_0:
saying the average is 3.6, but look 3.6 rounds to 43.1, barely, barely, barely three. So, you know, with 3.6 and four, 3.1 is a big difference.

[00:10:03.74] spk_1:
Absolutely. And think about it like this, if somebody, you know, earns $250 million over their life and they built a portfolio of real estate and wealth and influence ultimately. And they take that and they go to one kid, okay, let’s say each kid, you know, 100 25 million, but when one child is inheriting all that money, your major donor pool is ultimately getting smaller and and so now they have more power, they have more influence, they have actually ability to write bigger checks, but organizations are gonna have to do better at collaborating to generate these things because whether we like to admit it or not in the sector, tony

[00:10:20.21] spk_0:
Another, the other 125 million goes to the Super Yacht.

[00:10:23.84] spk_1:
Of course, sorry, tony slipped my mind. So

[00:10:27.56] spk_0:
there we are. So we’re done again again, we’re done. One kid and one super yacht, there’s your 250. Alright,

[00:10:33.59] spk_1:
You just you just cut generosity and a half and I think we started, Alright,

[00:10:37.34] spk_0:
let’s reduce the super yacht, you know, let’s say in

[00:10:40.44] spk_1:
70

[00:10:44.94] spk_0:
five, let’s do 75 million on the Super Yacht. Another 50. Another 50 to be very generous

[00:12:26.14] spk_1:
with. I’m gonna cut you off because I’d like to share a couple more pieces of data that are useful. The first one, is that, Is that migration has changed over the past kind of 30, 40 years Kids or kids in that 3.1 case right, families are actually staying more geographically close together. And that was especially heightened during the pandemic, where 52% of people aged 18 or 29 were actually at home with their folks in 2020. Now, if you look at data from Um, I think it’s 2004 is when it starts people, both seniors. And so like the parents of these boomers who many of them have passed now, but also the kids of these boomers are staying closer together, which means, you know, they’re more integrated into their families. And what that at least the research that we read and I understood or interpreted was that that can actually mean that maybe people are more aligned with their parents, beliefs or they’re more engaged with them? Or at least they certainly know their parents interests better. Now. The question we’re going to have to figure out is is that going to make them more likely to continue the legacies? Let’s say I I’m I’m let’s say there’s a high net worth family. Okay. And they’ve spent years giving to poverty alleviation? Well, these kids or kids that inherit this money because they’re closer to those parents, both geographically and, you know, in many other ways, are they going to continue that legacy? Are they going to rebel against it when they give? And it’s a question we don’t know the answer to, but it’s an interesting piece of data well,

[00:12:31.04] spk_0:
which also leads to, uh, you know, our our subject of appealing to these

[00:12:32.07] spk_1:
folks

[00:13:45.64] spk_0:
so that they don’t, by default, abandon the philanthropy of their, of their parents. I mean, they may do it consciously, but you don’t want it to just happen because you never gave it a shot to, to avoid it from happening. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll develop your media strategy for you. What are the parts of that? It starts with identifying your core messages then defining those channels, those outlets where those messages ought to be heard. The places where you want to be known as a thought leader turn to will do the legwork to approach those outlets and as they close opportunities for you, craft your message appropriately to the specific audience you’re gonna be talking to. That is a media strategy. That’s what turned to communications can do for you because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O now back to appealing to tomorrow’s major donors because I want to keep talking about the trends before we get to the Yeah. And I think there’s one

[00:14:14.84] spk_1:
interesting one that we can’t forget and that’s women outlive men, um, by like, I think it’s like five years on average in the US now. So it’s like, that’s a, that’s like, you know, a meaty 56789% of people’s lives. Right? And so it’s interesting because unlike, you know, unlike, unfortunately similar to many other things in our history, you’ve kind of focused on like older white men that’s been like, you know, kind of it’s you see it in representation in politics on boards of directors and ceo position in funding for investments, whatever it might be.

[00:14:27.65] spk_0:
Call it what it is. We’re talking about sexism.

[00:15:27.04] spk_1:
Sure, look, I’m a person of color. I I don’t and my wife’s a person of color who is a woman. She has it way worse tonight. Right? And so the interesting thing is my wife’s gonna be gonna outlive me almost for certain. I mean for sure in my case, but, you know, demographically as well. And so philanthropy forget about just the transfer of wealth. The transfer of wealth is going to be inter mediated by the transfer from men who are dying at, you know, whatever 70 something to women who are probably dying 56 years later. And so philanthropy is going to be affected by the fact that decision making historically and giving has been made by the primary breadwinners. But as we see more women taking positions and leadership making more money. We see women inheriting money, they’re gonna give differently. And I don’t think we exactly know how that is yet. But that’s like I said, it’s like a stepping in the in the in the transfer, right? So I did a point that’s super relevant to this conversation.

[00:15:40.94] spk_0:
There is research about the way women give being different than the way men give. They want to be more involved. Uh, they were more involved in in how the money is used. Um, it’s less transactional for them. And uh,

[00:15:45.73] spk_1:
that’s interesting. I didn’t know that.

[00:16:06.54] spk_0:
Yeah. And um, they like, you know, they like to have more of a role in how it’s spent. Um, and it’s, yeah, I don’t, I think there’s, there’s other research to that. They like to be not only involved in how what their gift is is going to do, but be involved in the organization generally. So maybe they’re giving they’re giving what we’re talking about major donors, I think is what

[00:16:17.80] spk_1:
the research

[00:16:18.85] spk_0:
research is. Um, but they’ll also be, they’ll increase their volunteering with your

[00:16:23.94] spk_1:
organization, which

[00:16:27.64] spk_0:
may have nothing at all to do with their giving. Uh, they again, less transactional more, much more relational when it’s when

[00:16:33.69] spk_1:
it’s and I think what’s interesting is like, there isn’t much data on that yet, Right. Because of the demographic realities and the power dynamics that have been so, so unfortunate. And so you see

[00:16:44.44] spk_0:
like, Yeah,

[00:16:50.04] spk_1:
and that’s, I think you’re gonna see more of the research and ultimately more from that because it’s valuable, you know,

[00:17:00.64] spk_0:
the sexism in fundraising is, uh, I think long standing and obviously shortsighted, um, not just in fundraising, right.

[00:17:03.23] spk_1:
tony and everything, to be honest.

[00:17:05.64] spk_0:
Absolutely, yeah.

[00:18:37.84] spk_1:
But what’s interesting is there’s also been and I’m not, you know, I want to kind of move on because there’s also been quite a significant ageism in fundraising. You said it yourself, we spend, what is it 80% of our time on the top? 20% of donors? I think that’s the math that everyone teaches at fundraising school. Um, but what’s interesting is that’s shortsighted ultimately. Yes, I understand it completely. I really do. But what is interesting is, and this is something I touched on in my lecture 10 10 was, you know, the investment in youth giving has actually been minimal to be honest, because it hasn’t seen us providing as much instant return on investment, which is true. It’s a long game, not a short game, right? And but youth, the youth, especially in the context of this transfer of wealth, are going to inherit all that money. And if you haven’t laid your groundwork, you can’t suddenly show up at their door and young people giving even if they don’t have wealth yet or at all. But yet for the sake of this conversation is different. A couple of interesting trends. The first one is young people and I say this millennials I think is the research that I’m quoting are much more influenced by their peers. So young people, I think the data point is our 46% more likely to donate if a co worker does and 65% more likely to volunteer if a co worker does. That’s fascinating to me because it actually it’s a social activity in a weird way. You know, the power, you know, we’ll talk about social media maybe in a bit. But that’s interesting. The second data

[00:18:45.66] spk_0:
point. That’s Yeah. So that’s just that’s co workers, not even necessarily friends.

[00:18:51.84] spk_1:
I assume the data is similar for friends,

[00:18:55.34] spk_0:
friends giving up their birthdays, friends doing peer to peer campaigns.

[00:19:06.54] spk_1:
Well, I think, and I think I have a peer to peer data point that in my notes, let me just see if I can pull it up. I’ll see if I can find it. But let’s keep going. Yeah,

[00:19:12.64] spk_0:
Okay. But coworkers. That’s that’s quite an affinity for co worker giving.

[00:20:19.84] spk_1:
But and you know, we see it, look, I have a lot of young millennials in all my staff and they’re wonderful and amazing people and they’re definitely, you know, whenever something personal giving, that’s the other point. The second point, this is actually a nice segue giving us much more personal to millennial generation. And that has a couple of ramifications for example, to segue from our previous conversation When you know, we have, I think we have staff from 15 countries at Kayla um, on our team born who are born in 15 countries. And so, you know, whether it’s an issue area they care about or something happening in in a in a home or or former place of theirs, they share the plight and also opportunities to engage, right? I think this is a beautiful part of our culture because it helps, you know, But I can, I can watch this in action. I can see I’ve made donations because our coworkers feels an affinity or a passion or, or a sense of connection to a cause. And so, you know, I think that is interesting because I’ve watched it kind of firsthand, right, tony I think that’s super. That’s it kind of reinforces from a non data perspective kind of qualitatively exactly what this data point is showing

[00:20:51.14] spk_0:
interest. But I think, you know, what else, you know, uh, anecdotally I’m a young baby boomer and I’ve never done that. I’ve never given because a coworker gate, I mean I haven’t, haven’t had coworkers for something like 20 years, but back when I did for the short time that I did and I could stand being an employee of someone else. I, I never gave for that reason.

[00:22:47.24] spk_1:
Well, and I think the social media thing is, is I can’t find the data point and I apologize, but I think it’s essentially the same thing. It’s that folks are influenced, not in a bad way, but like folks are inspired is a better way to put it from their communities ultimately. And it’s not church or synagogue or mosque or united way as much or community centers anymore. It’s what they’re seeing on social media, what matters most of their friends and what that actually is kind of segue. Me too is that they’re giving is much more personal for millennials than it was. You know I say our generation I’m right at the cusp of being a millennial but I consider myself at least emotionally outside of it. And so things like organizational status, tax deductibility, organizational legitimacy are much less at the forefront of their decision making. They you know the rise of go fund me where people are giving to people directly the rise of um of of of not having the intermediary of an organization. Um the rise of not carrying the fact that they’re not going to get a tax receipt which is gonna offset a percentage of their donations. Millennials aren’t necessarily looking for that break or something tangible. They want that feeling of making an impact right? There’s a huge feel. It’s it’s why we see the rise of you know be corpse attracting more staff and the why that almost every millennial says when you’re looking for a job impact is a part of that calculus. And so you see those I’m gonna go out and say values of a generation applying themselves or or or or showing their face in giving in a very different way from from me and you and our parents and I think that’s very interesting.

[00:24:09.24] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Their I. T. Solution is I. T. Infra in a box it’s the I. T. Buffet, it’s budget friendly. It’s holistic. You pick what you need and you leave the rest behind the different components that are available. I. T. Assessment, multi factor authentication for security, other security methods, cost analysis of where you’re standing, what you’re spending money on the help desk and there’s more you choose what’s right for your I. T. Budget for your I. T. Situation as it exists. Like they’ll help you fill the gap between where you are and where you want to be. That’s the I. T. Infra in a box. Fourth dimension technologies tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to appealing to tomorrow’s major donors. Let’s turn to what nonprofits can do to huh exploit this and using exploitation as in a non pejorative sense. Take advantage of or

[00:24:09.64] spk_1:
C the opportunity I think.

[00:24:15.14] spk_0:
Yeah in the data and then the and then the trend.

[00:24:17.12] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:24:18.01] spk_0:
And you know I think enormous wealth transfer. So let’s talk about the

[00:26:02.74] spk_1:
really low hanging fruit like the most boring fruit that you could possibly and and and that’s like you know when high net worth individuals give for major donors for major giving. Excuse me as major donors. They don’t see it as I. Samuel l smith is making the donation. It’s me the smith on behalf of my family. The smith family. It’s a family. There’s so much of that family legacy idea and so when organizations are so privileged to get those kinds of donations don’t just look at Sam look at SAm’s wife and look at Sam’s kids and make those connections with the family and that’s for two reasons. One, it’s the right thing to do. Super obvious. But to it’s actually laying the groundwork for, for relationships in the future, share the impact being made, engage the families, the kids. Especially because if you want to get another gift, if you want to, you know, create opportunity from that, it’s going to happen likely either when the donor dies and his or her wife does it or husband, but much more likely their kids continuing that legacy. So engage with them. Like that’s not hard. It’s like, you know, bring them, bring them in, engage them, take them out to lunch instead of just the major donor or the couple or whatever it is. It’s an easy thing to do is encouraging families to come and come around recognizing the families, not just the person and then offering entry points for the kids to um, to engage the organization as volunteers. You know, we talked in the, in the lecture and, and Nathaniel gave a great example about youth councils and, you know, bringing on kind of communities or boards of youth. Often the kind of, yeah, kind

[00:26:08.60] spk_0:
of advisory like

[00:26:09.50] spk_1:
engagement boards I think would be the best way to put it. But yeah,

[00:26:13.03] spk_0:
I’m,

[00:26:15.91] spk_1:
I’m just in our notes, we call them like youth, hold on. I’ll find the exact term we used.

[00:26:22.30] spk_0:
I

[00:26:22.64] spk_1:
think they’re called youth councils,

[00:26:24.24] spk_0:
you’ve counted. But what you would call them for the folks. Youth council,

[00:26:27.60] spk_1:
right?

[00:26:40.94] spk_0:
You want that, you want that perspective in your, in your event planning, certainly in your event planning, but in your fundraising, you know, you may, you may not be thinking of peer to peer well,

[00:26:41.52] spk_1:
and that’s actually my next point

[00:26:43.60] spk_0:
Are in their 30s and 40s, you may not be taking a peer to peer campaigns.

[00:28:54.04] spk_1:
And I have a feeling a big part of there’s a, there’s a symbiosis between that data point on giving from coworkers and peer to peer. So peer to peer kind of had a lot of sex appeal a few years ago, and then people were like, is it that valuable? I’m here to say peer to peer is phenomenally valuable, but not necessarily because people think it is or thought it was. I think a lot of people thought, oh, it’s gonna spike our donation. I’m in it for the long game here. To me, Pierre, Pierre is an entry point to engagement with an entirely new group of donors. I think the numbers in the 80% of people who give through a peer to peer campaign are first time donors to the cause. And, and if you don’t store them effectively, which we can talk about later or on another show or I’m sure you have really qualified folks talking about it, you’re gonna lose that donor to bring them into your giving ecosystem as an organization, but they are an entry point where somebody else is doing the lead generation for you, right? Ultimately that giving about coworkers, I give to every single period of your campaign. One of my staff’s writing in a, you know, um, cycling in an event or running a race or I don’t know whatever it might be. That’s an entry point. That’s an entry point. And it’s an entry point to diversify your donor base to access new donors to get your giving list up and, and we all know in the space, the donor retention is a lot cheaper than donor acquisition. Every data, like there’s absurd amounts of data that show that and peer to peer is a great example and, and it’s how you engage a generation and I’m gonna take it a step further. Millennials like to feel agency, they want to be part of something that goes back to that feeling that personal nature of it. When you get folks engaging with peer to peer, what you’re doing is not just getting money. You’re, you’re, you’re building advocates right? Like the youth council, but much more scalable, ultimately right. You’re getting perspective, you’re building advocates, you’re, you’re finding new ways to get into communities and you’re ultimately empowering social media to do the work for you and why wouldn’t you do that? And I think it doesn’t have to be a big event or a race. It can be, you know, that we can use peer to peer much more creatively to, to think about the long term opportunities, does that make sense? tony I

[00:29:21.34] spk_0:
had a guest, yes, it does have a guest who used the example of a local animal shelter they hosted a dog wedding for and, and you know, again an event to attract younger donors and, and it was phenomenally successful. I know you said it to my

[00:29:44.94] spk_1:
staff, they would all go like all these, it’s just, that’s a lot of them have dogs and you know, you know, it is what it is and it’s, it’s wonderful for them cause a lot of them are having kids, right? tony look at that number kid that 3.6 to 3.1 that someone’s not having Children and so, but that’s a way to encourage an entire demographic, you probably would, wouldn’t get to otherwise. I think that’s brilliant. It’s brilliant.

[00:29:51.44] spk_0:
Her other idea was a bark mitzvah.

[00:29:53.74] spk_1:
I’m

[00:29:57.81] spk_0:
trying

[00:29:59.08] spk_1:
to make a joke with mazel tov like,

[00:30:04.45] spk_0:
like

[00:30:05.12] spk_1:
it’s there, it’s there,

[00:30:19.34] spk_0:
it was all about to share that with her. Um, yeah, very good, very good, very good. Um, yeah, as somebody who thinks that the only good puns are the ones that I think of, but I thought I thought bark mitzvah was very good, yes muzzle top outstanding, very good, very good. Alright, tony I told

[00:30:28.50] spk_1:
you I have now been a dad for two years and so my dad joke. This is just, it’s, it’s coming, it’s rising, you know?

[00:30:40.34] spk_0:
Well you’re still just approaching it because is very good. When the jokes start to be about your genes, you know, then then then they’re then they’re tired. They’re

[00:30:47.42] spk_1:
tired. You’re

[00:30:59.84] spk_0:
just you’re just approaching but but you’re still in the you’re still in the humorous category and not high rolling. You’re not, you haven’t, you haven’t transcended into the eye rolling. Alright.

[00:31:00.18] spk_1:
There’s two more topics I want to touch on briefly before we run out of time.

[00:31:17.24] spk_0:
We have time. Okay. Wait, are these still in the category of what nonprofits can do to, to attract and appeal to and or steward, you mentioned stewardship I want to, you know what be doing do talk

[00:32:23.04] spk_1:
about? I think there’s two factors that we all that. So I I don’t know if this is a do and bring me back onto shore if you need me to. But let’s talk about family foundation and donor advised funds for a second because engaging both of these things is actually critical to capitalizing on the opportunity of of the transfer of wealth. So, you know, for whatever tax reasons, right. A lot of folks might build family foundations or or engage with staff so that they can receive the tax benefits on the event of some kind of liquidation. Whatever it’s selling the company or having a windfall or whatever it might be. But what’s interesting is two things to think about the first one is how are we thinking about that as part of the transfer of wealth? Like what can we do with that? And the second one is, that’s a give now benefit or, you know, benefit other communities. It’s like give now from a tax perspective, give later for the organizations. And so to me, I think laying the groundwork engaging family foundations or high net worth individuals early as that process is starting is going to be super valuable because folks could pass with dispersement quotas very low, at least in Canada. And I think in the States they’re relatively low as well.

[00:32:39.16] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:33:40.24] spk_1:
5%. So I think Canada just went from 3.5 to 5% in this past budget last week. Actually, well, exactly because their foundations, right. But yeah, so, but the thing is those are, those are like grounds for giving, you know, from a generational wealth because ultimately the kids might be forget about being involved, tony the kids might be actually driving that even when their parents pass on, so the gift has been made, but the, but the, but the beneficiary hasn’t benefited yet. And so it’s this liminal state that if we forget about as organizations and I speak as a board member of six nonprofits or five or whatever the number is, we’re losing an opportunity as part of this transfer of wealth. So laying the groundwork starting to build relationships with both the foundations and the daft or the daft, depending on the structure, getting the kids involved in other ways. Like peer to peer, I think, not forgetting the family foundations and the daft components to generational transfer would be shortsighted.

[00:37:02.03] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. I’m returning very shortly To New York City for two weeks. In fact, as you’re listening to this, I’ll be in the city And you know, I lived in the city for 15 years, but I’ve got some trepidation about returning. Um and I don’t think that my situation is any different than yours. You know, returning to old Patterns, old places, it might be an office, might be returning home after having been away through the pandemic. That’s my situation. I haven’t been in New York City since early March 2020. And so things on my mind do I remember how to get around on the subway. I feel like that’s like riding a bicycle. Um I don’t think I’ll get on too many uptown trains when I want to go downtown, but you know, the familiarity, the old alacrity, the smoothness, the comfort, it’s not quite there. I’m gonna have to check check my subway map app more often than I used to where you know, I used to just pop downstairs. Oh yeah, it’s right this way pop pop pop. I know the turn, I know which uh entrance I wanna use. I know exactly where to stand waiting for the train. I don’t have that, that level of comfort anymore. And Covid of course, You know, I did see that. Covid rates are declining in Northeast. But I mean new york city is still a huge city densely populated. So we got some trepidation there. I’m gonna have to be more scrupulous about my masking than uh, than I am here in this little beach town in north Carolina. And then the other part is just, you know, identity. I was a new yorker for 15 years And yes, I, I moved out of New York six years ago. So it’s not, I didn’t move out because of the pandemic. I left several years before, but for two weeks, I don’t know, can I be a new yorker again for two weeks? Is that that allowed? Am I a tourist? I don’t know. I’m, I don’t think I’m an expat new yorker living in north Carolina. I don’t feel like that. No, but am I a tourist returning for two weeks? Interesting. What’s, what’s my identity? How do I fit in former resident? Not, you know, that that’s somewhere higher cash than tourist returning resident, but just for two weeks. So interesting. You know, and I’m sure that you have got lots of these kinds of thoughts going on as you return two old patterns, old places That’s Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for appealing to tomorrow’s major donors with najid Kassem by the way. You’re on five boards, you were dismissed from one of the boards. I’m not at liberty to reveal at this time, but you’ll, they’ll be in touch with you.

[00:37:11.43] spk_1:
Good to know. tony I’ll expect the letter.

[00:37:14.13] spk_0:
Now the donor advised funds and the foundation. Yeah, very good. But when I said, when you know the kids are involved now, um, ultimately, I mean the kids may have already taken over, but ultimately when their baby boomer parents have died, then the kids are gonna be involved, especially in the family

[00:37:38.83] spk_1:
legally required to, to make disbursements. So if you haven’t gotten on the ground game now In 5, 10, 15, 20 years when there are these huge amounts of money, which they constantly have to be giving away, you’re gonna be behind the eight ball and that’s unfortunate position for folks to begin

[00:37:59.33] spk_0:
good. Yeah, no good advice. And that is right in line with what nonprofits can be talking about can be thinking about and and likely acting on. So yes, now you’re, you’re still in that you’re still in the, you’re still in the game.

[00:38:13.82] spk_1:
I’m still, I wanted to end at some point with five weird facts about legacy giving that I found, which I think you would really enjoy. I

[00:38:22.12] spk_0:
probably will. Let’s not, it’s, it’s not the show though. It’s still tony-martignetti non profit radio So hold, hold back with the, with the anarchy and we’ll get, we’ll get to the five points. we still have plenty of

[00:38:27.56] spk_1:
time

[00:38:31.02] spk_0:
alright, the five, five idiosyncrasies maybe of plan giving or legacy giving as you call it.

[00:38:34.79] spk_1:
And I think which is relevant obviously in the transfer of wealth conversation of course. What

[00:38:49.12] spk_0:
about what about more advice about thinking about acting on younger the younger generations, millennials generation, z you mentioned stewardship, what are we talking about? So

[00:38:51.08] spk_1:
I was just, I was just gonna go there and talk about

[00:38:52.72] spk_0:
community.

[00:39:56.92] spk_1:
So, so I think one of the pieces of advice that Nathaniel especially gave is like the post gift engagement, especially in peer to peer. And I thought that was really interesting because, and it’s two kinds of post of stewardship, the stewardship of the donors who give to peer peer campaigns, which is valuable and we talked about expanding the donor base, but I think what she really drummed down on is how important it is to actually engage with the fundraisers, the folks who are actually doing the period, like, you know, who are the, you know, for those of you who don’t know a peer to peer, you have a group of fundraisers who raise money for the cause and donors make donations in support of those fundraisers and the money goes to the organizations, but the fundraisers, they’re kind of like your champions, right? They’re the ones who are casting a wide net who are sharing and promoting, who are engaging their social media’s and I think one thing that we often forget is to thank the fundraisers, we do a good job of thanking the people with the money fine and maybe we don’t do good enough a job but you write a check general, you’re gonna get a thank you. But the fundraisers are actually your access to market their your go to market strategy, so to speak and so

[00:40:03.19] spk_0:
you’re right. They created the campaign.

[00:40:05.66] spk_1:
Absolutely. They did all your work for you

[00:40:15.91] spk_0:
birthday, whatever. Yes. Yeah. Are we are we are you seeing that? Are we bad at thanking the fundraisers? We are we

[00:41:37.01] spk_1:
are um it’s very automated, it’s thanking for signing up more than thank you for what you’ve done. So a lot of like the impact or or community reporting people often forget the fundraisers and there’s you know, we’ve seen that anecdotally, we’ve seen that with our product and I’ve seen that in some of the research as well. And so where you know, Nathaniel gave this great example, I’m trying to remember but she said send a personalized impact report to the things that the fundraisers care about because generally when you’re signing up as a fundraiser for a peer to peer campaign, you give insight into the things you care about the reasons you’re doing. My mom, you know, my grandmother passed away from acts or my you know, my my aunt did this or or someone at my work struggled with that. And so you’re gonna get some insight into what they care about and if you want them to run these things again to do it participate next year or in subsequent years to get more involved as a donor themselves or a volunteer that follow up is so valuable and make and spending the time Doing it for for each of them, even if it’s 10 minutes, you know, make a call, put their name on an impact report, it’s so little in terms of cost or time, but the value of the return and ultimately that feeling of values align, which was, you know, I’ve tried to come through, come up over and over again through the, you know, this conversation about millennials, they’ll feel valued, they’ll feel values aligned and ultimately it’s the right thing to do, but but also it will help you getting them to get engaged in other ways or or

[00:41:56.31] spk_0:
again. Yeah, Alright, very smart, very savvy. I’m disappointed to hear that we’re not being good about the fundraisers. It’s I

[00:42:17.30] spk_1:
think it’s easy because there’s lots of them and it’s hard because we’re not used to it. Right, peer to peer is relatively new, it’s not built into the muscle memory of us as fundraisers and I think that’s yeah, a lot of organizations, especially mid to large ones are actually getting peer to peer officers now. So you know, you’ve got your major grant donor officer or program manager, you got your recurring donor, you got your peer to peer now because the R. O. I. S. Is so strong both from a brand perspective and from the donation perspective. Right.

[00:42:24.33] spk_0:
Very good. Thank you. All right. When you said you had I think you said you had to

[00:43:45.90] spk_1:
I think I think the stewardship one is interesting and it actually comes to you know again it’s that personalization element what what millennials want to hear however you’re engaging them if they’re the kids of high net worth if they’re part of peer to peer campaigns or if they’re just giving in general as part of the transfer they want to see much more intimately or much more directly what’s happening with the money? Right. What are you know the older generation is like how much are you spending on administration? That’s actually a lot less. They don’t care as much and you can see that because of how they’re giving, what they care about is what actually happened to that money. I don’t care if you use 13 cents or 18 cents or 23 cents for administration. How many malaria nets was I able to get from that or you know what value did my gift or my time bring to the cause that I care deeply about and that subtle difference in stewardship is actually quite substantial in how you treat it. So you know it’s not a budget or or or a financial document that you’re sending as part of stewardship it’s a lot around stories around data on impact and and around around making them feel like they were a part of that, which I think is quite different from what we saw in this boomer and other generations. What do you think? tony

[00:43:50.96] spk_0:
Yeah, no, I agree. I think there’s been less attention to that.

[00:43:56.00] spk_1:
It’s

[00:43:56.78] spk_0:
been it’s been growing, but the boomers are probably dying at a faster rate than they can, they can gain the they can gain the benefit of. I’m one of them, I’m happy to be a younger one.

[00:44:32.29] spk_1:
But but I also think it goes back to the values which we’ve sort of been talking about, right, that different reason for giving, right that the reason people millennials take certain jobs or do certain things or engage with certain, you know, community activities or civil society, it is different. And if we don’t steward differently with that, we’re not only missing an opportunity. We’re kind of not meeting folks where they are.

[00:44:34.29] spk_0:
Look, if, you know, if you’re ignoring this, the difference in the generations, you’re, you’re doing so at your peril. You know, you’re, you’re ignoring critical difference is that there’s a difference between your 70 year old donor and your 40 year old donor

[00:44:48.88] spk_1:
and I don’t want your old donor and

[00:44:51.30] spk_0:
You’re 25-30 year old donor

[00:44:53.59] spk_1:
absolutely and I don’t want it to be like we’re just doing this to get more money. Like as much as that’s easy to do. You want to connect like it’s the right thing to

[00:45:14.49] spk_0:
do. Yeah. Including families has always been, especially in planned giving, but it’s, it’s just, it’s just smart. It’s just smart business, um, engagement, which leads leads to more, more, greater impact, whether it’s volunteering or giving or just thinking well of your cause.

[00:45:23.26] spk_1:
You know, you

[00:45:24.25] spk_0:
know, I don’t give to the organization anymore, but they were very good to me when my mom died,

[00:45:30.19] spk_1:
yep.

[00:45:35.29] spk_0:
All right. All right. The Big five now giving, I will, I, I prefer the phrase planned giving so I’ll tolerate, I’ll not accept, but I’ll tolerate your legacy giving moniker.

[00:45:46.49] spk_1:
This kind of, and I’m gonna type

[00:45:49.97] spk_0:
each

[00:46:47.28] spk_1:
of them back to the conversation we’ve had today. So this isn’t out of nowhere. So first data point is 50% of like of, of planned donors give to their organization for more than 20 years before making a planned gift. So when we talk about engaging folks If you’re 45 or 50 right now, you’re part of that gen x or you’re, you know, you’re an elder millennial. If the, if the data point stays strong 20 years, it’s gotta start now, You know, if you want. And that, that’s why this transfer of wealth is super interesting. Number two donors, aged 44 older represent about 75% of all wills and more than 80% of the total value of all charitable requests made. So again, 44 is a young, it’s, you know, it’s not, we’re not talking people in their seventies when people are thinking about their wills, their thinking about the, when their kids are still in single digits often, right? Like, you know, we, my wife and I did our will when she was pregnant. We didn’t have a will before that, but we, you know, we did our, our will our wills. I guess there’s two of them

[00:46:52.80] spk_0:
was donors, 44 and over represents 75% of all existing wills

[00:46:58.73] spk_1:
and more than 80% of the request

[00:47:07.58] spk_0:
And more than 80% of all right. I guess I’d like to see a finer breakdown. Like that’s 44 and over. You know, What’s, what is 60 and over look like

[00:47:10.18] spk_1:
and I don’t have that off my fingertips. But I would bet it’s even it’s the vast majority. I

[00:47:14.95] spk_0:
would bet I

[00:47:33.48] spk_1:
would bet again, Absolutely, absolutely. Number three, 50% of donors age 50 and over with no Children had charitable estate plans, but among similar donors With Children, only 17% had philanthropic plans. That one was actually quite interesting to me.

[00:47:41.08] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:47:42.58] spk_1:
So

[00:47:43.91] spk_0:
your, your folks with no Children are better plan giving prospects than your folks with

[00:47:49.55] spk_1:
Children and

[00:47:50.57] spk_0:
There’s, there’s a difference of 33%.

[00:47:56.28] spk_1:
Absolutely, yeah. In terms of the number of them that have wills. Right, Which is fascinating.

[00:48:01.27] spk_0:
That’s the population is have a charitable request in there

[00:48:07.50] spk_1:
will be 30

[00:48:14.67] spk_0:
3% if you’re, if you’re 55 and over, No, 50 and over, You’re 33% more likely to do it if you’re 50 and over and have no Children than you are if you’re 50 and over and had at least one child.

[00:48:36.57] spk_1:
Yes, absolutely. And again, why is this relevant? Because in this transfer of wealth, more and more people are inheriting money who don’t plan to have kids. Right. And that’s super interesting and incredibly relevant. Um,

[00:48:38.77] spk_0:
You know what, that’s even, it becomes more interesting even on another level, because yeah younger folks are less likely to have kids from the current 55 year

[00:48:48.91] spk_1:
olds. So

[00:48:54.57] spk_0:
assuming human nature isn’t, isn’t changing then that the Delta is gonna change between between the population, that doesn’t have Children in the population. That does, because the population that doesn’t have Children is going to grow up.

[00:49:16.17] spk_1:
And you look at that first data point where most people are gonna make requests to folks that they’ve engaged with for 20 plus years. that’s again relevant because more people are not having kids. So you got to engage them earlier. Because if you do the likelihood of you getting a request is, is going to be like you said, the Delta is going to be higher and higher. Right? Very

[00:49:28.23] spk_0:
interesting. And

[00:49:52.27] spk_1:
ultimately Planned gifts from single, never married donors are actually 13% larger than from married donors. So it’s interesting is, again, how do you focus this? This is, this is part of the lecture he gave on like how do you focus your time? Of course, you have unlimited resources. You focus on everybody. But thinking about folks who haven’t been married, um, or are no longer married and without kids, you’re gonna get bigger donations. Right? And, and that’s super interesting. Especially in the context of people not having kids. A lot of this transfer is inter mediated by that,

[00:50:07.06] spk_0:
that those have always been your best planned gift prospects, folks who are unmarried and no

[00:50:11.65] spk_1:
Children.

[00:50:23.46] spk_0:
Um, not to not to exclude others from your program. If you have the, if you have the luxury of knowing who has Children and who never married and a lot of that, you can just find out from, uh,

[00:50:26.19] spk_1:
social media.

[00:51:04.96] spk_0:
Well, yeah, that’s true. Um, then then those are your, those are your, you’re ultimately best prospects. And thank you for using the word Penultimate correctly. I appreciate that so many things. So many people think that penultimate is is the better one comes after the ultimate because its penultimate. So she correctly, thank you for using Penultimate, it’s among my favorite words along with, but the ultimate, it’s the

[00:51:11.86] spk_1:
Ultimate, the Bark Mitzvah. Ultimately Pet owners are 70% more likely to give request than non pet owners.

[00:51:15.06] spk_0:
Pet owners.

[00:51:33.86] spk_1:
So free will, which is a will’s website in the US. It like helps folks create their wills. Did some really interesting data around the charitable giving of pet owners and folks who have pet owners are much more likely to make requests, 70% more likely than non pet owners. So I have no idea how to use that piece of data, but it’s so obscure and so interesting that I included it as my factoid and I’m sharing with you

[00:51:46.06] spk_0:
for folks who are in a, in an animal oriented non profit you know, they know

[00:51:48.68] spk_1:
that a lot

[00:51:49.97] spk_0:
of pet owners are very concerned about the life of their pets after their own deaths.

[00:51:55.36] spk_1:
So

[00:51:56.60] spk_0:
they’ll make, they’ll often make

[00:51:58.39] spk_1:
gifts for

[00:51:59.55] spk_0:
the care of their

[00:52:29.65] spk_1:
pets. Interesting. I, I think what’s interesting is going back to millennials and the demographic data that we’ve seen as most folks, you know, a lot of people who don’t choose to have Children choose to get a pet. It’s like a pretty common, you know, trend, I think. And so, you know, that’s interesting because there they still have a lot of love and they’ve made a choice which is so personal and they want to continue a legacy, Not just for their pets, for what you said, but rather just in general. And so they see their way to, to continue. They don’t have Children. So their legacy is gonna live through their gifts. And I think that’s, that’s, again, speaking to the 3.6 to 3.1 number of people in the household and that number continuing to, to change.

[00:52:49.05] spk_0:
Thank you very much.

[00:52:51.52] spk_1:
Let’s

[00:52:59.35] spk_0:
let’s take care of a couple of things when it first, don’t you shout out to Nathaniel Fung, since you mentioned a few times, So

[00:53:24.35] spk_1:
was was my co presenter on this. Um I got to give a lot of the nerdy theory that I shared with you all today, but Nathaniel did a phenomenal job of sharing the case studies that she’s done. She spent a lot of years, decades I think, working in health foundations and health giving and she just brought incredible examples of youth councils and examples of campaigns and how they started them. And so it was, it was an absolute treat to, to speak alongside her.

[00:53:32.65] spk_0:
Nathaniel is director of philanthropy, where at

[00:53:32.82] spk_1:
the BC Women’s Foundation

[00:53:34.75] spk_0:
Women’s hospital

[00:53:36.48] spk_1:
british Columbia, women, women’s hospital, where my son was born.

[00:53:41.35] spk_0:
And Kayla, you give it a shot for Kayla,

[00:54:30.04] spk_1:
I mean, always happy to, to to serve such an incredible institution um for those of you who don’t know, Kayla is, is fundraising um intelligence and donor management tools, built, you know, with the most powerful, exciting technology. But built by fundraisers myself, being just one of many and ultimately our goal is to help folks, you know, have a great um donor management experience, to help increase the predictability and to help nonprofits grow. They’re giving it’s a Crm, it’s an intelligence tool. It’s got beautiful and amazing forms you can pick and choose if you want crm, you want forms, you want intelligence. But ultimately it’s a it’s a technology company with the sector at its at its core and I encourage everyone to to always take a look at kayla k e l a dot com.

[00:54:37.34] spk_0:
Dot com, awesome dot com. Very good. Look

[00:54:38.81] spk_1:
at

[00:54:43.18] spk_0:
dot com. It definitely rhymes what? Almost com

[00:54:49.84] spk_1:
Alright.

[00:54:52.84] spk_0:
And he’s the ceo and founder, thank you very much for sharing your ideas.

[00:54:55.18] spk_1:
tony always a pleasure and hope to see you. Hopefully not two years from now, maybe before that.

[00:55:00.40] spk_0:
No, thank you. Well, will you be in you think you’ll be in Denver if it’s actually live?

[00:55:05.47] spk_1:
Yes, yes I will. Next.

[00:55:06.74] spk_0:
NTC 23. NTC I believe I’ll be there too. All right,

[00:55:10.81] spk_1:
wonderful. Thanks. tony

[00:56:29.54] spk_0:
my pleasure and thank you listeners for being with Non profit radio coverage of 22 NTC. Thanks so much. Next week, It’s your RFP process as our 2022 non profit technology conference coverage continues. If you missed any part of this week’s show? I beseech you find it at tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o And by 4th dimension technologies I T infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits, tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with Me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for August 30, 2021: Decolonizing Wealth

My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:02:21.14] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with hyper guard Dallas the asia Footnote one If you tickled me with the idea that you missed this week’s show de colonizing wealth. Edgar Villanueva’s book de colonizing wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy, This originally aired 30 November 2018 Antonis take two gratitude all day. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform, empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Let us begin here is de colonizing wealth. It’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio Edgar Villanueva, He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andrews Family Fund, Working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at Grand Valley State University and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s held leadership roles at Kate b Reynolds charitable trust in north Carolina and marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle, Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and at Villanueva Edgar, you’re welcome to studio.

[00:02:22.29] spk_0:
Thank you. tony Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:23.87] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october

[00:02:28.33] spk_0:
october 16th.

[00:02:29.31] spk_1:
Yes. Alright. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times?

[00:02:33.16] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:02:34.14] spk_1:
congratulations on that. They perhaps perhaps perhaps you for nonprofit radio

[00:02:37.66] spk_0:
Right, right. I’m ready. All

[00:03:25.24] spk_1:
your, all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So it’s all culminated here. Um, I promised listeners, footnote one, footnote 12. hyper guard Alice these asia. Uh, of course, anybody listens to the show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease. Every single show. Uh but in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper guard anesthesia. So this is the first time Over 400 shows that the, that the guest unknowingly has uh, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do that every single show. Um you didn’t know that you’re not listening to nonprofit radio It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re, you’re a bit of a troublemaker

[00:03:30.54] spk_0:
a little bit.

[00:03:33.34] spk_1:
Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. Uh,

[00:03:33.76] spk_0:
someone told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way, but

[00:04:04.94] spk_1:
that’s not also bad. Get a little closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate with it almost. Um, I used to call myself the charlie Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. Uh, can’t use that any longer. Um, because you talk about uh, colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like these are bad things.

[00:04:06.84] spk_0:
Yes, they are bad thing. What

[00:04:09.48] spk_1:
uh, what is the, what’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:46.74] spk_0:
so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the non profit sector, um, you know, have this firewall that we are completely disconnected from, um, Wall Street or from capitalism or, or some of those uh, processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from uh, corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, um, sometimes, uh, not in the best ways, not in the

[00:04:50.24] spk_1:
backs of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:10.14] spk_0:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country is steeped in trauma. Right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth, but you know, when we look back and we see in general how wealth was accumulated. Um, you know, especially I’m from the south north Carolina, we’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was the legacy of slavery and stolen lands that, that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:23.04] spk_1:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans.

[00:06:09.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, we as a, people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities. Um, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in north Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact, but colonization and the, the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparents generation kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still, we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are a resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we are trying to solve today as a society, have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:22.24] spk_1:
You say that the natives are

[00:06:23.73] spk_0:
the original philanthropists.

[00:06:44.94] spk_1:
Um, now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. Uh, Robinson county north Carolina, which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west I think of, of Robinson County lumber. So the lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the lum bees and Lumberton. The town

[00:06:49.90] spk_0:
named for lambis. Right? So love bees were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first and so certainly the river came from

[00:07:00.26] spk_1:
the name of the river

[00:07:10.04] spk_0:
came from rivers been there much longer than, Yeah. So we are, you know, a hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north Carolina. Um, that I came together to form the lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:40.94] spk_1:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to uh, native americans as the, as the original philanthropists. But uh, that, that struck me a lot. I think you, you say, you say that the end of the, at the end of the book is where I, where I caught it. Um, uh, we just have like a minute and a half or so before the break. So just we’re introducing this, we’ve got plenty of time together, wealth. You say divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:08:01.84] spk_0:
So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral wealth in itself, I say is, is neutral, but it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed. Um, the acts that can result as a, as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what that’s what has caused the harm in itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has caused trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven,

[00:09:10.04] spk_1:
6, 6 steps to that second half of your book. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and get that voice heard in the right places. Places like the Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, fast Company Market Watch and lots of others you’ve heard me name. They’ll help you find your voice and get it out. Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to de colonizing wealth. *** tony-martignetti Uh, that is your indian name. Did I by any chance say that correctly.

[00:09:13.13] spk_0:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shabby with my Ojibwe these days. You

[00:09:17.72] spk_1:
don’t know your, you know,

[00:09:18.75] spk_0:
you know that sounds, but

[00:09:25.84] spk_1:
that is your indian name. Uh, leading bird, uh, tell the story of how you got that name. Well, welcome back to don’t welcome back to the exploitation and control, don’t we? Yeah, this is a good story, how you got that name.

[00:11:55.54] spk_0:
So my tribe, the lumbee tribe in north Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are, whatever your mom calls you, that’s your name. Right. Right. So, um, but when I, when I was working in north Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there is a medicine man and some, when the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to, to talk or have a session and growing up in north Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh north Carolina. And so, but I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and to um see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me if you’re, if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um, and so I met with this guy in the Marriott hotel in denver colorado or this, this native health conference. So it was all uh, tell the story in the book is quite um hilarious and in many ways, but at the end of our session where I was feeling um excited about, you know, the conversation we had but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I’ve, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. Um he did offer me a native name, Naghani pinochet, which means leading bird. Um, so I was very honored and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right am I a little tweety bird or am I mighty eagle birds are best? So um he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V. Formation. Um, and as I when I left I studied these birds and and they’re the leading bird. I’m the leading birds leading bird. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V. Formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understand its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V. Formation, it’s really like an amazing natural national phenomenon, how how they communicate and fly together. Uh the other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird forward. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And um when I, when I learned these characteristics, um I just felt really, um I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life and I think it’s the type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:32.04] spk_1:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered, uh, they’re, they’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, and you know, be injured. But that’s how they, and I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close but not so close. They’re gonna be injured, right?

[00:13:00.84] spk_0:
It’s very, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, gPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds, um, is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more. But I think when they’re when someone is down or you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen. Uh, they, there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and are interrelated, you know, being interrelated and

[00:13:21.14] spk_1:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is a, this is an indigenous belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of. The birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are, each of one of us related to the, to all the other.

[00:14:34.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So there there is a native belief um all my relations that means um you’re, all of our suffering is mutual, all of our thriving is mutual and uh you know we are, we are interdependent and so it’s a very different mindset or worldview from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset. Um we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives um and we are related to the land and to the animals around us, but all of the things, all of the decisions and um that we are making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor and so what our responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our um our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and and to think about how to apply them in my work

[00:14:54.74] spk_1:
and you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility for as you said, were thriving and suffering together. Um what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:14:55.96] spk_0:
Yeah, so you know, I think are we all responsible?

[00:14:58.94] spk_1:
We’re all

[00:15:11.24] spk_0:
responsible because we’re all affected. Um, I think some folks, when we, you know, we learn about colonization in schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We um, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes like the natural path of progress. Absolutely

[00:15:17.37] spk_1:
way it’s learned,

[00:16:11.34] spk_0:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher columbus for example. And so but the realities are that colonization um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And uh, that type of history that we have in this country is something that we um, as as the people have not come to terms with, we actually we don’t tell the truth, we don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. Um, and so the dynamics of colonization which are uh, to divide to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. Um, you know, I I refer to them as the colonizing virus, because they they are still in our bodies as as a nation. They show up in our policies, our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions in the nonprofit sector, and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power.

[00:16:20.24] spk_1:
Uh, these

[00:17:25.54] spk_0:
naturally to your point about us, them organizations go ahead. So, you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, um, you know, the dynamics of colonization because when you look at um uh where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. When you look at ask the question of why this money was held back from public coffers, um that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting the safety net and vulnerable communities. Um And when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend it, you see a very um white dominant kind of mindset happening because for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit um foundation set on $800 billion of assets. That’s a lot of money that has been uh you know, sheltered from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, um things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities, but that money has been put there with little to no accountability. Um Private foundations are only required by the I. R. S. To uh pay out 5% of their assets. And so then, you know, you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public good. Only a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community. Let’s assume

[00:18:11.04] spk_1:
it’s uh I know there are a lot of Foundations that use that five minimum as their maximum. So that’s so 5% of that would be $40 billion. Uh So the counter is, but there’s $40 billion coming Each year. Could be more, but let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And you know, we’re trying to preserve this uh this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if, you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were trying to, you know, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say,

[00:19:26.24] spk_0:
right, right. And you know, I think I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5%, when Congress had acted that 5% role, Um it actually began at 6%, I believe in 1974. And then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having A tax break. And so that that uh IRS minimum payout of 5%. That rule was put in place to force um foundations to actually begin making grants. And so, you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with a 95%, that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good in communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too, generate more money for future grantmaking And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and extract extractive industries, um, that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point

[00:20:20.74] spk_1:
often uh, that often right, Those investments are in our industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through its, through its mission. And, and in fact funding um, the uh, something else that was going to ask about the, the way the money is. Um, All right, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s there’s a lot that organizations can gain by hiring people of color indigenous people. What uh, and and very few. You’re, you’re a rare exception. Um, working in, in found doing foundation work. Uh, what’s the, make explicit those uh, those advantages?

[00:20:49.64] spk_0:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely um an exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 native Americans that I could find, we kind of found each other. What year was that? Uh, this was in 2005 And we are now, there’s about 25 of us now, the last time I counted. Um, so yeah, there’s, there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations and I think more and more foundations are understanding to bring folks in uh, 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:12.64] spk_1:
and not only foundations but nonprofits and Ngos doing the groundwork. Absolutely foundations of the funders. And of course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but, but for the nonprofits doing the day to day work

[00:21:15.21] spk_0:
as well

[00:21:16.01] spk_1:
represent the communities that you’re

[00:22:06.94] spk_0:
absolutely, it kind of makes sense, right? And uh, you know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff and their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re, you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit or foundation to, to have folks uh, that that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness and um, you know about the problem in a different way. It’s going to create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies. That that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes and board meetings where decisions were being made and I always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room and I hear these decisions are these conversations and I’m thinking like, oh my God, like you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother or my family that still living in poverty. Decision makers disconnected, there’s such a disconnect.

[00:23:12.94] spk_1:
Yeah, um and I I thought of what I was going to ask you about or just comment on the Foundation wise, we do see some Foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Uh I wouldn’t say it’s a needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time, that there’s a foundation that’s committed now to spending its its assets down, you know, uh was paul Allen, was that uh not paul Allen the Microsoft? I think the Microsoft founder, co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was paul Allen Okay, okay. Uh I was thinking of steve Allen comedy all comic, that’s why I thought, no, it wasn’t him, but it was paul Allen, I think his foundation is one, but there are some, so we do hear some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times people we need to move the needle.

[00:24:15.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think deciding to spin down is a very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now um if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um there there’s a lot of amazing work happening um right now that is so under resource that if we could um support and get behind investing money in these various movements and these uh in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh the 5% that is being invested, only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. That would make a big difference. And so I think um you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards of Foundation should think about, what is the value of, you know, why why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of uh you know, uh way of thinking,

[00:24:33.24] spk_1:
if this was CNN right now, I would I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times, uh we have to work on that at talking alternative, we need we need video capture and screens and everything. Uh in your video, in your interview with David Bernstein new York times, uh you said by not investing more in communities of color philanthropy? Venture capital, impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:25:52.34] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when, when policies fail or systems fail, um, we hurt the hardest and uh, but there’s just something so magical about and sense of pride that I have about my community because we are so resilient regardless of um, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the um, you know, genocide stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. Um, and so there’s, there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would, if I weren’t native, I would be interested to know like what, when you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Um, indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, um, you know, really fighting for environmental protections. Um, there, there’s so much wisdom and you know, often foundations roll out new theories of changes are changes are see strategies or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and I’m like, wow, we’ve been doing that in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:00.64] spk_1:
Is there still a lumbee community in Robinson robeson county?

[00:26:04.27] spk_0:
Yes, there are, there are about 60,000 enrolled members in the lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County

[00:26:12.59] spk_1:
now have a north Carolina driver’s license. Will that, will that get me in? Can I be a member?

[00:26:17.86] spk_0:
You know, we were very inclusive. We, we, we’ll take, we’ll adopt you as an honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation to get officially enrolled. So it’s, it’s a stretch for an italian american with north Carolina license

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
player and, uh, driver’s license. All right. Um, you, you talk about, you know, I guess, I mean, we’re skirting around these things, Make it explicit the power imbalance, you know, that, um, minorities are seeking it. And uh, mostly middle aged white guys are, are doling it out. Uh, you know, piecemeal, um, the, the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the, even the word, you know, the granting, it’s like some, uh, I don’t know, it’s like some holy orders has, has bestowed upon you something that’s a gift when, uh, your, your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s, it’s a, it’s a right equally held by all,

[00:27:46.44] spk_0:
yeah. You know, I think power and money, A lot of, a lot of this does come down to power and ownership. Um, we are talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. Um, to me, equity really is all about shifting power. And we often think about that from the lens of equality. So we’re going to have the same power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power to take a

[00:27:54.36] spk_1:
back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know, that’s, that’s highly unlikely. Like infant is really small, unlikely.

[00:28:27.24] spk_0:
You know, it’s, it’s a hard thing for people to, uh, to think about. And especially if you have, if you’ve been privileged for so long, um, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I, I, I have less than I’ve had. So, um, but you know, we, I want to think about this through an abundance of my frame. There’s enough, there’s enough resources, enough power to go around. Um, we just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging those who have not been privileged by that problem.

[00:32:43.94] spk_1:
So I love that you, you approach it from a position of abundance and not, not scarcity. It’s time for Tony’s take to gratitude all day. This is coming up just next week. So this is something for folks that are listening to the show very quickly after it’s published. No, wait, what am I saying next week? Yeah, it’s this week. It’s this week september 1st and second. It’s gratitude all day, september 1st and second Wednesday and thursday, it’s online, It’s a live stream, you join and share with the world your gratitude. What are you grateful for health, your family, friends, good drinks, prosperity, uh safety. Uh you know, I’m thinking things that well, I don’t want to share my gratitude, I’m doing that, you’ll, you’ll hear what I’m doing mine, I can’t give you mine now, I can’t do that now. So I’m trying to think of what your gratitude might be. Uh wonderful vacation blossoming flowers over the summer. Uh you got approved for your life insurance policy, you bought your new home, you sold your old home, your kids are starting college, your kids are leaving college, whatever you’re grateful for you get the idea, you join the live stream on Wednesday and thursday the 1st and 2nd and you share it with the world whatever you’re grateful for now, The best time to do this is 7-9 eastern on Wednesday september 1st because that’s the part that I’ll be hosting. See, there are different hosts throughout hosts throughout the 24 hours and I’m the hostess for 7 to 9 p.m. Eastern Wednesday night. The whole thing runs from one p.m. On Wednesday to one pm Thursday. So the best time to share your slot, share your gratitude is my slot because that’s you know, you don’t want to take a chance with with a lackluster host when you can have a lackluster host of your segment. So 79 p. M. That’s, that’s the best time to share your gratitude, although you certainly can do it anytime during the 24 hours. And where do you get all the info for gratitude all day. It’s very simple. You go to gratitude rising dot org Now if you can’t join us because you didn’t listen to the podcast the day or the day after it was published, then just do your own gratitude. You don’t have to share it with the world. Do you? Do you do daily gratitude? You know what that is in the morning when you wake up, you you just, you’re beyond the twilight zone, but you haven’t gotten out of bed yet. A couple of minutes devoted to daily gratitude. Now I don’t do it daily, but I do it often verbalizing, saying them out loud, verbalizing the things that you are grateful for, think through and go into depth about the things I’m grateful for just talking to myself, but saying them out loud. So if you can’t join us for gratitude all day, do your own day gratitude and hopefully daily gratitude that way. But I love the idea of just gratitude, giving thanks and sharing it if you can. But even even saying it out loud is, you know, sharing it with yourself. It makes a difference saying it out loud versus just thinking about it. It does, That’s gratitude and that is Tony’s take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Now I want to go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar. Villanueva. See, I thought he would pronounce his name. Edgar And I was wrong. And but that’s that’s why I said Edgar. But it’s Edgar. Edgar. A gravel in river. And de colonizing wealth. Welcome back. You didn’t go far.

[00:32:45.10] spk_0:
Thanks for having me. Okay. I’ll still be here. Yes, absolutely.

[00:33:06.44] spk_1:
You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. Um It hasn’t happened, I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s, let’s start getting uh positive. You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, And uh, I thought you came up like five short. I mean, we have another 12 steps. I mean, if you want to, if you want to share power, you’re gonna have to have, you got to step it up with like 12 steps or, or even 15, you know, you have more than the colonizers. Uh, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re they’re pretty radical.

[00:33:33.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s a there’s a quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this and we can move on

[00:33:38.37] spk_1:
prime number. So that

[00:33:56.14] spk_0:
I think that’s that’s unique. I don’t know why, but yeah, so, you know, but I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, uh, you know, a process that we can begin. but there is no linear way or a quick way to um, to solve, all these problems or to, to undo what has been done. But there are ways to, to, to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:34:07.42] spk_1:
listening out for us, just list all seven and then we’ll

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
talk about, I’m sure. So they’re grieve, apologize, listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay.

[00:34:22.54] spk_1:
Um, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while. I mean this, uh, I just did, I admire though. I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:35:30.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience, um, when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to just re ground myself and my values and um, and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space. Um, the other parts of it come from, I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and philanthropy who were, I think of very forward thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of, you know, what, what, what have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this. Um, and then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice um, in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used in schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is a model that has come from indigenous communities where we um sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:35:58.84] spk_1:
So, uh, grieving, uh, you say everybody, I mean because of our inter relatedness where we all need to grieve, including the people of color and indigenous, you know, those who have been oppressed.

[00:37:06.43] spk_0:
Absolutely, we all need to grieve. Um, we need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, um, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm and the loss that has calls for people of color, but also white people. And uh, you know, I think that’s uh, we it’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been caused a community of color. It’s not so clear. We don’t talk about it very much the loss that uh, the colonization and uh, the idea of white supremacy has actually caused in white communities. But it’s uh, it is, there is a loss there. I talk about it in the book um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and uh tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases um languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being american. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and they feel connected to that in some way.

[00:37:34.63] spk_1:
Um, and um the the thing you talk about too is uh the orphans orphans, you say that those of us who are descendants of, of the, of the settlers you call us orphans, how’s that

[00:38:54.42] spk_0:
I call them orphans. This is a term apart from some research that has been done on whiteness and it is, it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss. Again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from, from the home country, from where where folks, settlers came from giving up those, those ways of being interacting in community to subscribe to this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country um for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know, I’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that, this is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud to be a citizen of this country. Um, but there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here. Um you know, and and not um that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparents or from or the language they spoke with, the culture they have. Um and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities. That is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color. Um, and if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, um it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race.

[00:38:58.32] spk_1:
You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a real not real. Why? Why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, uh, how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not real?

[00:39:41.42] spk_0:
Um Well, well, the idea that that uh, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing. Right? So this wasn’t an ideology that was created um in order to be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been uh you know, an idea that is not real, but we have built systems and um societal norms around that. You know, growing up I was taught that you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness, was was better. And so if I were to behave or dress or act in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea of white supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not real, but there are very real implications and for how we have adopted that, that belief. All right.

[00:40:11.71] spk_1:
Um and you’re you also encourage uh nonprofits and teams to have a grieving space while we’re talking about, we’re talking about grieve, we just have about a minute before a break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps, but what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:40:54.31] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, these these steps are our personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think especially those of us working in the nonprofit where we’re supporting communities, we need to have space spaces in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that and to feel emotion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that, and the research shows that there um it’s actually um leads to a much more productive workplace to have moments where we we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening, you know, in our communities.

[00:41:33.91] spk_1:
The book is de colonizing wealth, just, just, just get the book, you know, because we can only scratch the surface of it here in an hour. But uh, de colonizing wealth dot com, that’s where you go. I like the idea of the grieving space, you know, uh acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something, you know, it’s how how how oppressive is that

[00:41:52.91] spk_0:
very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around these these secrets of like how this wealth was amassed or secrets that are within these families that um, you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward as you said,

[00:42:32.10] spk_1:
and and that was the next step in terms of uh, your next step apologizing recognizing which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money. I mean, you worked for the Reynolds KB is KB. Reynolds Foundation Reynolds tobacco north Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not going to ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the, in the step apologizing.

[00:42:35.56] spk_0:
Absolutely no, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And uh, chapter one of the book is called my arrival in the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former estate or plantation of R. J. Reynolds. And so, uh, really literally and metaphorically I was, I was working there. But no, there was, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And I think you see that, you know, in, in north Carolina, recently, the chancellor of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and building that university and that some of the buildings there named after a former slave owners, what most people of color want. Um, it’s just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition

[00:43:31.70] spk_1:
acknowledge and maybe move to apology. Perhaps that didn’t johns Hopkins University do something similar that, that they had, their founders were uh, johns Hopkins, their founders were slave owners.

[00:43:34.49] spk_0:
I think Georgetown University

[00:43:38.10] spk_1:
Georgetown. Sorry, thank you. Okay. Georgetown, there were pre right. There were priests, uh, priest founders that were slave

[00:44:16.49] spk_0:
owners. That’s right, actually, no. Um a friend of mine who lives in New Orleans as a black woman who is a descendant um and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment. They set in community together, talking about the history talk acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big right up in in the paper and you know, this has been a very uh healing I think for the university, but also from for my friend Karen, um who is now having that, you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors, you talk a

[00:44:51.49] spk_1:
good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um Canada, uh you gotta get the book. I mean, we can’t we can’t tell all these stories. I mean, I know listeners, I know I know you love stories as much as I do, but there’s just not enough time to just get the damn book. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, for Pete’s sake. You go right now, if you’re listening live, where are you poughkeepsie? It’s connected. He uh Nottingham Maryland just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Um okay, listening, you talk about and empathic and generative listening.

[00:46:20.28] spk_0:
Right? So, you know, often um, when we, when we moved through a process like this, we feel bad, we’ve apologized. Um uh, the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so, but before you move for an act, you just need to pause to actually listen, Uh, to listen and learn. So to, uh, for, for non profits. You know, I ran a nonprofit, I’ve worked in philanthropy for 14 years. When I asked nonprofits what is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently? The response is always, I just wish they would listen. Uh, because there’s something about having resources, money, privilege and power when we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the airspace and we have an agenda and the non profits are going to be responsive to what we want. And you know, that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is a difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and, and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just, it’s just going to make you a better person, uh, feel like listening as a human, right? We all want to be, We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is to, um, to, to stop at times to also listen and to let others be hard put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Uh,

[00:46:51.38] spk_1:
listening. We talked about, we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors. And I know you’re next, you’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s, that’s, that’s the beginning of a relationship. As you said. You know, listening, genuine hearing, uh, two whether its donor’s or potential potential grantees. Um, there, there’s a lot to be learned.

[00:46:53.59] spk_0:
It goes back to the

[00:47:08.98] spk_1:
value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re, that you’re serving. Uh, okay. So relation you want us to, uh, you want to relate, let me ask you, you, you, you read, um, how to win friends and influence people. You say dozens of times. You said it doesn’t, I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Uh, the L Carnegie’s book dozens of times.

[00:47:37.08] spk_0:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um, I stole from the library of uh, my mom was a domestic worker and she was caring for frail elderly man. Um, they had this vast library. So I end up with this little book that you stole from an infirm elderly elderly man. I feel terrible about a book. It haunts me to this day. So this is a public, you

[00:47:46.10] spk_1:
didn’t even think to leave like $20 or something

[00:48:26.47] spk_0:
on the table and have it if I had it at that. All right. Um So hopefully this is my my way of giving back, this is my reparations for for that that wrong. But you know, and the one take away from me in that book uh is uh is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um And if you actually just listen more than talk, people are gonna think that you’re a great friend like well Edgar that was such a nice time with you. But even if I didn’t say much and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they are important because they are um you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they are interested in. Um It’s just gonna really take you much further in building a relationship

[00:48:54.57] spk_1:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking. Um You have you you have an example of uh um a like building design, like office design. Kitchens, you’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices.

[00:49:31.07] spk_0:
Yeah. You know so sort of like these ideas of like the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So yes, even the way buildings are designed especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and you know, hard edges, absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:50:45.06] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build and to end digital campaigns, They look professional, they’re affordable, they keep your campaigns organized. It’s all about digital campaign marketing. Most software. You know, it designed for big companies with big, big enterprise level price tag, sending blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s easy to use and walks you through the steps of building a digital campaign. You want to try out sending blue and get the free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony dot M A slash send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for de colonizing wealth. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth. Again, just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, get the thing, get the book just in terms of designing organizations, uh more egalitarian you’d like to see.

[00:51:35.86] spk_0:
Absolutely. So uh, one of the steps of the book is represent and what you look at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part of the sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power in organizations. So what are the, what are the ideas that I put forth in the book? Is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. Um, this would drastically change what, you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this, uh, far from what is required of, of many nonprofits. Funders actually are, you know, requiring this, of their nonprofit, that their funding, um, and many government organizations that receive government funding, federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of those nonprofits.

[00:51:49.40] spk_1:
Again, representative? Absolutes, yeah, that’s a, that’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:51:57.36] spk_0:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has, has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:52:17.45] spk_1:
And there are some examples you cite the novo Foundation in the book. Uh, they have a women’s building that they’re, they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something to turn into this building and, and the decisions being made by, by women who are going to be using the

[00:52:45.25] spk_0:
building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are um, really, um, putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is, is a foundation that I really appreciate. Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of the Novo Foundation, wrote the forward to my book. And they are folks that you, if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give, they are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens um, to folks who are impacted by, especially women and girls, which is an issue they really care about and they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundations agenda might be.

[00:53:06.85] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? It’s guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment.

[00:53:39.05] spk_0:
Right, Right. And, and that type of long term commitment is, uh, you know, something that, that is the best type of funding, you know, folks can be, you can focus on building relationship versus so I’ve got to meet these certain objectives, so I can keep getting this money year after year and so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna, you know, how am I going to pay the salaries next year? Um really allows folks to have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing in communities

[00:53:44.55] spk_1:
and and planning and and can plans that are being

[00:53:47.42] spk_0:
one only 1 or two

[00:53:56.25] spk_1:
years. Um so we kind of mishmash together, you know, relating and representing um investing.

[00:54:44.74] spk_0:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy to think about using all of its resources for um for for the public good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle issues If we’re supporting with the 5% in our right hand, Really good work, you know, mission-related work. But in our left hand we are investing 95% of our resources in um industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really canceling out the positive of of our resources. So, you know, there are great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation for example, who just recently declare that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus is going to be used in support of their mission.

[00:54:47.29] spk_1:
Uh Again, other examples in the book and uh we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up actually. Um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:55:28.04] spk_0:
the final step is repair. Um, all of us who are philanthropists are givers and as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we are all philanthropists. I’m supporting, um, nonprofits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine, how can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization in, in, in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color um, to support grassroots leadership? So reach across, um, and support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, uh, you know, along the lines of thinking or exercising these types of values.

[00:55:50.94] spk_1:
Okay, so I’ll give you the last 30 seconds, uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by what you, what you talk about your mom.

[00:56:13.63] spk_0:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving, when we look at giving in this country, the biggest philanthropist, philanthropist or folks who are giving the most highest percentage of their income incomes are actually poor people. And so I do talk about my mom in the book, um, who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income and but yet she gave to our community and and how to run a ministry of our church to support Children,

[00:56:18.38] spk_1:
the bus ministry,

[00:56:19.36] spk_0:
the bus ministry.

[00:56:20.24] spk_1:
Just gotta, you gotta get the book,

[00:56:21.23] spk_0:
you got to read the bus ministry and so it’s giving of time treasure and talent, not just resources and so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are um you know through love is uh we’re all philanthropists

[00:56:33.73] spk_1:
get the book, go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva, thank you so much.

[00:56:37.97] spk_0:
Thank you for having me on tony real pleasure

[00:57:40.83] spk_1:
next week converting followers to donors with Adora drake, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Mhm Yeah

Nonprofit Radio for May 17, 2021: Your Partnerships With FGWs

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First Generation Wealth creators have different values and mindsets than those who inherited their wealth. And FGWs far outnumber the inheritors. Esther Choy’s research will help you understand these folks and how to build valuable relationships with them. She’s president of Leadership Story Lab.

 

 

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[00:00:10.64] spk_2:
Hello and welcome

[00:01:47.84] spk_1:
To Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer with lateral epic and colitis if you gave me the elbow and told me you missed this week’s show your partnerships with F G W s first generation wealth creators have different values and mindsets than those who inherited their wealth and F GWS far outnumber the inheritors Esther choice research will help you understand these folks and how to build valuable relationships with them. She’s President of Leadership Story lab and tony state too, in praise of donors like my dad, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s a pleasure to welcome to nonprofit radio Esther choi she is President and Chief story facilitator at leadership Story Lab, teaching storytelling to institutional and individual clients or searching for more meaningful ways to connect with their audiences. She’s a contributor for Forbes Leadership Strategy Group and you may have seen her quoted in leading media outlets like the new york Times and entrepreneur dot com. Her practice is at leader Story lab and leadership Story lab dot com. Mr choi welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:50.29] spk_0:
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:06.24] spk_1:
It’s a real pleasure. Welcome. Um you you have you have some new research out that we need to, we need to talk about transforming partnerships with major donors. What are, let’s let’s just jump right in and why don’t you explain what F. G. W. Folks are? And uh tell us a little about your research that you did with these F. G. W folks

[00:03:57.54] spk_0:
sgw folks? Well, I recently published as a research report um and lucky enough to have a really, really good exposure, such as the one you mentioned in the new york times. And uh, there are a lot of surprises about the folks that we generally in the broader society, just just overly sort of broad and call them the rich people or the wealthy folks or the high net worth individual or the ultra high net worth individuals as if they all belonged in this model is a group that they all think act believe in the same way. And so I got curious about them after I’ve taught uh, in this major gift strategy program at Kellogg for awhile, wondering why are these people so hard to get What, uh, because so many nonprofits is doing amazing and moving and important and urgent work that no one else is doing. So why is it so hard to reach them? So I dug further end. Uh, did a lot of homework and I interviewed 20 very, um there are ultra high network folks and I just ask some questions about how did they get you their wealth? What is it like? Um are there any downsides too well having wealth and so on and so forth, and focusing on philanthropy. Um so this report, I can talk about anyone number of ways. So you tell me, what do you, what do you want to most learn about these first generation wealth creators? Well, let’s

[00:04:01.27] spk_1:
let’s start with how big a proportion they are of the of the wealthy,

[00:05:24.64] spk_0:
wow, I am glad you start. That’s the starting point. Um that’s one of the biggest surprises that I’ve learned because they are At least 68 Of the, this massive group that we call wealthy, ultra high net worth. They are at least 68 of them earn their wealth instead of inherited. That’s a big, big difference between inherited wealth versus earned wealth and that means they’ve traveled a entire social economic class That they did not grow up with. And so some of them, very few of them really make the majority of their wealth in their thirties or even 40s. Most of them are in their 50s and 60s. So we’re talking about full on grown adults with Children and maybe even grandchildren by the time they become um this wealthy. So it’s a very interesting transformation of your life, your community, your social circles, the things that you worry about Or not worry about all happen around starting from the point of 50s and 60s.

[00:05:42.34] spk_1:
All right, So, so they’re at least two thirds, but maybe even a little more than two thirds of all the, all the wealthy folks. The way we would describe as you’re saying, high net worth, Ultra high net worth. These are these are 2/3 of those folks,

[00:05:46.24] spk_0:
correct at least. And it’s actually you

[00:05:49.01] spk_1:
said 68%.

[00:05:51.10] spk_0:
68%. I picked the most conservative number, but I’ve read elsewhere too. And put that to um somewhere 80,

[00:06:14.44] spk_1:
80%. Okay. Alright. 800. And and everybody you interviewed is first generation wealth. That’s that’s where your research was correct on those folks. Okay. So let’s get to know them a little bit. Um, your research has uh, a nice chart. I like, I like pictures of the first thing I look for in books and pictures. Uh, simple, simple. You’re you’re burdened with the host with a simple mind. Um, but you do have these, these pillars of wealth generation. So let’s describe these folks, not, not not all three. I mean, people are just gonna have to get the research, you know, I’m not going to quiz you, I’m not quizzing you on block number four in line three on the no we’re not doing that. I don’t want to go like word by word because people got to get the research. Which which is that? Leadership story lab dot com. Right.

[00:06:47.04] spk_0:
Alright, okay. You can download,

[00:07:07.34] spk_1:
yeah, there’s an executive summary and you can download the full report as well. Right? So leadership Story lab dot com for the full thing, for the full, for the full study. Um But let’s get to know these folks a little bit these these first generation wealth creators. Um you start by saying they’re understated. There may be even humble, are they are they to the point of being humble and modest,

[00:08:01.84] spk_0:
humble and modest and they have a hard time. They have a hard time with the, with the word wealthy, they understand the size of their assets, They understand um what they are capable of affording, which is basically anything, but they have a hard time with the label wealthy and um they oftentimes think of in regard and never really left their middle class roots and that’s the majority of them come from very middle class, you know, they don’t want to be flashy, nor did they enjoy flashy things that attract attention. So um you know, make no mistake, they are part of things that are very um you know, shiny and, and sophisticated and, and high quality, but it’s not who they are inside. So that’s one thing to keep in mind is that they are very understated themselves and they often appreciate other people as well as other things that are understated.

[00:08:31.64] spk_1:
You make the point a couple of times of saying that they don’t they don’t identify themselves as wealthy even though they know that they fit into that category, correct? Okay. Um so you sat down and you you met these folks, you, well maybe not face to face, but you you spoke with these people or couples or how did how did that all work?

[00:09:12.34] spk_0:
Yeah, So I did all the interviews with in partnership with the research firm And it’s all done virtually because it was done in 2020. Um There was one noted exception um where I was invited to her home uh and I met all her kids and her husband’s and you know, it’s just like the whole family in the background and it’s kind of funny to talk about her family while her family was around, but for the most part it was done um through zoom One through calls and then um there are four people, so two couples. Um I interviewed them at the same time together and uh the length just got doubled. Um you know, it’s usually 50, 50 minutes to an hour and with a couple um we talked for over an hour and a half.

[00:09:34.84] spk_1:
All right. All right. How do you, I’m interested in some of the details. How do you reach out to these folks? How do you, how do you get their

[00:10:58.44] spk_0:
attention? It’s really hard. So the first thing we mentioned um in one of the four pillars is their understated right? They don’t identify with the word wealthy. They certainly don’t make big advertisement to the world that they are wealthy. And so to find them and to get them to agree to speak on record, although it’s anonymous. Um and to get them to open up and talk about money and wealth. It’s really hard so I have to rely on a couple of key relationships. Um One is through one of my alma Mata um texas A. And M. University. And my friend and colleague, the ceo of texas A. And M. Foundation help me recruit a few quite a few of these interviewees. Uh My business partner who also happens to be a uh trustee at the University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati foundations and um through a couple of my own resources as well as my research firms. So 20 for qualitative studies is you know, sufficient. It’s definitely not a lot. 20 people doesn’t sound like a lot but 20 of these type of people and get them to talk about very sensitive topic. Um was it took quite a bit just to get them to agree to talk to me.

[00:11:13.64] spk_1:
Go. Aggies.

[00:11:14.34] spk_0:
Thank

[00:11:18.54] spk_1:
you. Absolutely. Um And what was the median income for these 20 folks families?

[00:12:25.64] spk_0:
So um at this point I don’t think their income is very meaningful any anymore. So where I am uh by median I would refer to their uh their their networks. So the net worth the median range is 50 to 80 million. Um Although um the low I would put it in the low teens, the highs I would put them in 100 and 50 just give you give you give our listeners a sense as well of what we’re talking about like by Well you know millions is like a lot of Zeros. You know at some point it’s just like my mind can’t keep them all in one place. Um according to the Fed in 2020 the top one of the U. S. Um Folks have 11 million. So these are all um uh you know sort of the top 1%. Er And um

[00:12:35.44] spk_1:
If for the one even right right mid teens to 50 or so was was roughly the median net worth.

[00:13:07.24] spk_0:
Exactly exactly. But then if you think about the one of 300 million people in the us That’s three million 3 million people. And that is about the size. If you put them all in one city all in one location there just below new york city, just below new york, just below Los Angeles but just above the city of Chicago. Mm So three million people. That’s a lot of people.

[00:13:27.04] spk_1:
Okay. And And you estimate conservatively that of those 3,068 our first generation they earn their wealth versus inherited. Okay. All right let’s go back to get to know these folks a little bit um uh their entrepreneurial, no surprise but tell us what, what does that mean for the way they think about themselves and the way they might think about uh, their philanthropy.

[00:15:37.94] spk_0:
Yeah, so in the most literal sense, they are were entrepreneurs. That’s how they created, most of them created their wealth and with a few um less than 20 of them had a very lucrative corporate careers. And entrepreneurs also means that it’s a mindset, it’s the lenses in which they apply all things through. Um So it could be the way um that they would like their Children or grandchildren to approach um you know, if I wanted to study abroad even um and you know, I need additional funding. Well, how much you think about it as what untapped opportunities might there be out there for you in this country that you want to study, but it’s not currently fully leveraged. Um but entrepreneurial could also means to, as they think about non profit, as they really think about how they want to leave their social impact and how they want to fully make sure that their philanthropic dollar is put to good use that also applied and, um, compatible with their middle class values. So, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s up and down side, right? Um, sometimes something just can’t be measured. Sometimes nonprofits are run by people who are philanthropic reminded and socially minded and they don’t necessarily have the same sort of business acumen as, as, as well as, um, fear competitiveness, um, that these donors tend to have an embody. And so the downside of having that entrepreneurial mindset is that sometimes it creates clashes. And if, you know, at the very least disagreements on, is this really the best use of the precious dollars that your organizations have? Um, sometimes there’s no straight black and white answer yes and no. Um So um that’s what I mean by entrepreneurial

[00:15:52.04] spk_1:
And what else what comes next in those four

[00:16:03.84] spk_0:
pillars? So the third is free and I truly it seems like a very simple no nonsense and and and we’re like oh we live in a free society. But I think the truth of the matter is that a lot of people are not free, they are not free to pursue whatever they want, they are under certain professional career obligations or financial pressures

[00:16:22.84] spk_1:
and they are a lot of options.

[00:17:44.94] spk_0:
Yeah, exactly. And that’s why a lot of career counselors ask mid to even late career folks, you know, what would you do if money is not an issue? Right? I’ve heard that questions asked a lot in Korea counseling because a lot of people are under that pressure. But these F. G. W. S. They are not and for them it’s often times for the first time is, wow, now it’s not a theoretical questions anymore, I really don’t have to worry about money. Okay so now what what do we do? And so um a lot of them pursue experiences, a lot of them want the same thing for the Children and grandchildren. Um They uh pursued 3rd 4th 5th careers that they’ve always are interested, intrigued by, know that they’re not very good at and know that they probably may not may or may not be able to make a ton of money with. Um But they pursue it anyway, so it’s that sense of freedom. Um that I think a lot of people as long as they have to still worry about saving for retirement, saving for making sure you can pay your mortgage and things like that. It’s really hard to wrap your mind about. And then these folks are just sort of Mhm fully embracing,

[00:17:56.94] spk_1:
may want their Children to understand that having a wealth of options doesn’t just come, it comes from hard work and and devotion, which is what they devoted their decades too, so they want their Children understand that, that does just doesn’t just happen for everyone.

[00:19:40.94] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m glad you bring up Children across all 20 of them, even though the ages ranges from Late 40s to a few 80s, um they all worry about their kids even though their kids have all grown up or they have worry about their kids or have regrets about uh the way that they raised the ways that they pass on their assets uh to their kids. And the funny thing is that they did not tell me oh I have so and so um I really can confide in or I know these uh professional resources uh that I can go to and um all of them are just kind of like, I hope I’m doing the right thing. In fact, I know I haven’t done the right thing, but then talking to piers surprisingly was not an option across any of them. And so although they’re free, but this taboo topic of money and wealth have prevented them from really searching for the right answers at the time when decisions had to be made. So Children, it’s a constant universal worries, especially for people with wealth. Um, we’ve seen from studies after studies that for example, substance abuse tend to affect um, Children from families with means disproportionately higher than those who are not from a family with means.

[00:20:45.54] spk_1:
I wonder if there’s some tension for them because they’re not comfortable talking to those who inherited their wealth or even just other wealthy people because they don’t they don’t identify that way, but then they’re not comfortable talking to those folks that they knew when they were struggling in their careers and before they’re they’re great success there, great financial success will qualify that because success can take lots of, have lots of different levels to it, but before the great financial success, because they, like, they don’t want to, they don’t want to appear overbearing to their non wealthy friends who they know from high school and college and, you know, maybe professional school or you know, whatever. Uh so there they, like, caught in the middle, like, they don’t have valuable personal relationships to, to leverage and count on in in in times like when they’re questioning what, what to do with Children and, you know, sort of existential questions like that.

[00:22:44.14] spk_0:
Yeah, so this is another downside of being entrepreneur. Um another way to call someone very entrepreneur is what, you know, he’s he has a can do spirit, she has a can do spirit. So if you can do, you can do it yourself, you don’t need to count on other people to help you, you can pull yourself up by the boot strap. So uh that’s one and two is again, the subject of wealth, it tends to be taboo. Um in fact, the broken institute economist Isabel Saw Hill made this really app as observation and she said that people rather talked about sex than money and money than class. So first generational wealth creators have travel across classes and so that makes it really hard for them to say, you know, I don’t know what’s the right way if we do, if we travel, is it wrong for us to buy business class or first class and what are your middle class friends going to say? Poor tony poor Esther you’re struggling with questions like should you travel in business versus first class and it’s not something that a lot of people, first of all empathize with, and second of all have the right context to give sound councils and what about professional um coaches and um counselors and whatnot? I didn’t actually covered in the report, I chose to exclude it and just in the in favor of focusing on nonprofit and fundraising. But their experience with uh wealth management advisors are very mixed because it’s an industry that has a lot of conflict of interest. There are some really, really good

[00:23:04.54] spk_1:
let us in on something that didn’t make the report, this is great not profit radio you gotta let us in on the, on the, on the back story. What? Say a little more about these, the trouble they’ve had the mixed results, mixed results, I’m sure some have been, some results were fine, some relationships are fine, but so a little more about what didn’t make the final report there.

[00:24:40.84] spk_0:
Um I cut a whole section of just because I think it might be detrimental to getting people to read it when it’s beyond a certain length. So this whole section that I cut off was on um, how they view advisors, um, counselors and things like that. And indeed, you know, uh, two words to describe the entire section is that it’s very mixed. Um, some have great experience, some on the other end of the extreme is um, they thought the people they interacted with is just uh, the advice weren’t very good or too obvious or that again, they can do it themselves. Why do I need to pay you so much money to tell me something I know already. And uh, and, and by the way, that is somewhat parallel to their experience with uh, fundraisers. So I don’t want to just put the hammer on uh, wild advisors and and and um, tax advisers and whatnot. Um, because this idea that, oh, we know you’re wealthy, we know what you can do with your money, either for the benefit of yourself as well as for me or my organizations. That really changed the dynamic of the conversations as well as the services, how services rendered and that’s to their relative to their expectations. Um, so that’s why it’s not very helpful I think just to come off and um list a bunch of things that they’re not happy with without being able to say what would be helpful. So I just removed the whole section and also in favorite of keeping it readable length.

[00:32:20.44] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You remember them, you’ve been hearing about them, the biden tax plan, the infrastructure plan, immigration. Is there anything in there in these continuing conversations that you’d like to be heard on? Anything in their impacting your work? Anything in there that you’re expert on and you need to be heard. You want to be a trusted source on something that’s under constant conversation and it’s in the press turn to has the relationships that can make that happen. They are a trusted source by lots of media outlets. They can get you heard on the subjects that you know best and that your expert on let them use their relationships to help you because your story is their mission. Turn life into dot C. O. It’s time for Tony’s take two In praise of donors like my dad. My dad is 88 years old and he gives to dozens of nonprofits a month. I have seen the checks that he writes now, 88 years old. So you know, he’s not doing online giving, he’s not doing online bill paying. He writes cheques for those of you not acquainted with checks. They come with check registers. That’s a little booklet that you can write all your checks in. So you can reconcile month after month, right? It’s an old process, but For an 88 year old, it’s the way it gets done. He’s outgrown check registers. He writes so many checks to charities each month that he just keeps a running list on sheets of paper. And there are so many check entries on each sheet that the sheets are curling up a little bit. When the sheet is complete, it’s almost like parchment. It’s curled up a little bit because there’s three columns Of checks in on each page. I don’t mean each check takes up three columns. I mean there are three columns of checks on an 8.5 by 11 page. He’s got a he’s got the check number, his own abbreviation of the name of the charity and then the amount and uh, he’s got the date, it’s got the date in there too. And so that’s how he reconciles. Uh, so yeah, dozens of checks to charities per month that, you know, that’s a kind of giving that I only and experience with through him because I do plan to giving, which is on the other end of the spectrum of giving. Um, he certainly doesn’t consider himself a philanthropist, but he’s very, very supportive of charities and and how does he choose the ones? Well, first of all they find him, I don’t know how the list exchanges or sales work, but charities come to him. So they send him U. S. Mail. He’s got no email, he’s got no cell phone. Um We’ll get to vetting in a second. So charities right to him. And he read the materials he scrutinizes, he decides whether he thinks the work is merits, his giving and something that he wants to give to, something he’s interested in. And then he goes to the Better Business Bureau. Why is giving alliance report on charities? And why does he choose that one? Because it’s in print, there’s no going online to charity navigator or any other rating service. Uh, that’s online. He goes to the print the booklet. So Better Business Bureau and if he likes your work and you’re listed in the Better Business Bureau, giving booklet rated well in there. Then he writes a check and you probably, these charities are writing to him again a month later and there’s a good chance he’s writing a check a month later, et cetera. It’s a very iterative process. There’s no real learning that goes on. I can’t say there’s a feedback and improvement part to the iterations. But, uh, the cycle continues. You know, we need people like that. These small donors. That’s a, you know, some people prefer to say modest donors. I’m not commenting on my dad’s or anyone else’s character. When I say small donors, it doesn’t mean that he’s a small person. Just he gives small gifts. So I avoid the euphemism, I just say he’s a small donor. We need small donors like this. You know, they he’s loyal. Once you, once you meet his threshold and it’s not very high what I described, then you’ve got him for a long time. Don’t try to upgrade him though. He’s not going to become a major donor and he’s not gonna put you in his will. I’ll see that that part. So forget the planned gift. That’s not happening. No, but he’s not, he doesn’t think that way. He’s never gone deeper with any charity that he gives to the way I’m describing. We need folks like that. We need the, uh, $10, $15 $20 donors. And in some respects, he’s a recurring donor. I mean, he is a recurring donor. He’s just is not part of your monthly recurring program that’s set up automatic, you know, the automatic debits credits. Um, he’s not, he’s not one of those, but he’s he’s a recurring donor. So in praise of donors, like my dad, it’s very interesting to watch him. We’ve talked about his process. Yeah, We need folks like that. And here we are talking about future, um, or wealthy, wealthy folks. I’m sorry, first generation wealth. Here we are talking about. And my dad, is that the, well, these folks, I would put plan giving at the far end of the spectrum. So these folks are near there, but my dad’s at the, on the left side of the spectrum. We need them all. We need all these donors. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for your partnership with F. G. W. S. All right. Finally, these folks are lone rangers. What does that

[00:35:39.44] spk_0:
mean? Um, we touch upon it a little bit where we, um, you know, they are part of this new class of wealth. They’re like immigrants in some way. By the way, I really wanted to recommend a few books, uh, not just mine, um, that really helped me round out my understanding. So this whole idea of um, think of first generation wealth creators as immigrants. Um, they have migrated from a different class altogether and enter into this world where the beliefs, um, the values and oftentimes even language, um, or foreign to them and although it’s great, this is paradise. Um, they often find that there are tricky conditions. Some even would say because their native born Children and grandchildren, um, don’t understand the privileged privileges that they were born and then we’ve gotten accustomed to you. Um, and the cliche or the adage or however you wanna wanna wanna call it shirtsleeves, to shirtsleeves, rice paddies to rice patties, wealth does not last past three generations and they know that. And so when you think about this special Land of Paradise again, by the way, this is uh, I learned it through the book called uh strangers in Paradise by James Grubman. Um, their need of born Children and a grandchildren, statistically speaking, will be deported back to harsher land where the first generation have migrated from. And um, and here’s the kick tony I, I just, I just found it fascinating and this is why I can talk about this, you know, forever and ever mismanagement of their wealth, taxes and inflations and bad investments. All of those are more just the natural delusions from, you know, the couple, two Children, two grandchildren, right? All of those reasons are reasons for wealth, not being able to last past three generations, but you will probably, I’ve never found anyone cases for example, or family where the story basically is, well, grandpa and grandma gave it all the way to charity and left nothing to us. That’s why we’re poor again, you know, that just doesn’t happen. And so what my I think what I really want to focus on, I think the opportunities for non profit is that what might there be an um different way to think about the conversations that you have with these donors where you help them solve a problem or maybe many problems and then you also help yourself um solved the problem. By the way, I’m getting like, way, way, wait, this is a problem when you we have no script. I’m getting like way away from the lone ranger questions. I’m going to bring

[00:35:49.36] spk_1:
you back, but I

[00:35:51.31] spk_0:
but I think I’m getting to the whole

[00:35:58.84] spk_1:
profit radio No, no, you’re not. You’re, what you’re saying is still valuable. Don’t don’t 2nd guess yourself. What

[00:36:34.33] spk_0:
I’m, what I’m getting at is that it’s lonely to be first general. It can be lonely to be a first generation immigrant. Mhm. Except that most immigrants have somehow found other immigrants and they talked, they share notes that commiserates, they help each other out. But um, first generation wealth creators are particular type of immigrants where for all the reasons that we’ve talked about, they don’t actively look for help nor was real quality help readily available.

[00:37:15.83] spk_1:
Okay, interesting, really fascinating analogy analogizing them to immigrants. Um, did you, did you put any of them together uh, since you met 20 of them and got to know them? So these folks that are, uh, feeling loan, feeling loan, I don’t know, lonely, I’m just using what I’m not saying, they’re lonely in their lives. Maybe they are, but they’re lone rangers. Did you, did you put any of these folks together? Say look, you know, I met I met so and so like two or three weeks ago. And she was saying the same thing that you’re saying, you know, one of the two of you talk or would you be interested? You know, did you put any folks together to help them? Uh commiserating at least maybe even help. Maybe at best help each other.

[00:37:21.08] spk_0:
I

[00:37:23.32] spk_1:
think I

[00:37:44.63] spk_0:
Would I would if I were asked, but with these 20, because of the promise of confidentiality, um, I don’t share their names or contact with anyone, but um, I have done webinars since then where I was asked. So how do you find these people? And then if if they asked me then I will help.

[00:37:49.37] spk_1:
Okay. Okay, well I’m like a connector. So I was thinking, you know, if I could get her permission, would you like to talk to her? Because the two of you are saying things that are really identical and maybe together, you could help each other

[00:39:15.72] spk_0:
as well as having very similar questions. And this is where I was getting at the opportunity part because they’ve asked questions like how much and when should I pass my asset to my kids and grandkids, It’s dealt with by, um, with wealth advisors on a very case by case basis. And I think that should be, that’s the way it should be done. But what’s really sorely missing is how do other families handle this right to your questions of? Well, there are other people like me, what do they do? Because they’re in my boat? Um, so as well as questions like how do I get in sync with my spouse? Um, and then they also have questions on like, how do you truly vet? um, a non, a non for profit, you know, and how do you help? Not my, you know, the nonprofits that you support become more efficient and they are aware that not coming off as because I’m a donor, I give money and um, you should do what I tell you to do. Um, things like that, you know, that productive relationship with nonprofits. So there are endless questions like this that they can talk about, not just commiserated, although commiserating is great too.

[00:39:49.42] spk_1:
All right. I don’t know. I think you could be a connector, a major connector. Um, and I notice I’ll leave that there. Uh, but you know, the title of your research is transforming partnerships with major donors. So, so let’s let’s let’s transition to some of those opportunities. You talked about problem solving that could be mutually beneficial. How do I would’ve fundraiser ceo approach someone with that with that kind of opportunity?

[00:39:59.62] spk_0:
Yeah, so I want to break it down to three steps. I want to break one,

[00:40:00.91] spk_1:
2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 3 step process. Okay.

[00:40:03.92] spk_0:
Yeah. Well, yeah, okay, you can call it a three step sauces,

[00:40:07.35] spk_1:
but I didn’t invent it, you made it

[00:42:35.30] spk_0:
up. I think the first thing is you have to really think about the questions you ask them and uh, oftentimes, how curious how respectful for how informed you are are all set out by the kind of questions you asked? Are your questions mostly really at the end of that they self serving. Um or are you only focusing on a very narrow aspects of the donors? Um or are you really broadly interested in problem solving? Now, here’s another thing that entrepreneurs like to do, they like to solve problems and oftentimes they take the same mindset towards non profit Am I really giving to an organizations that are going to solve real major problems in assisting for sustainable way. Um, so that’s the first thing is the questions that you ask And then two is reading once you really find out about uh, you know, what you could learn from the donors, is that really being able to pair what your nonprofits have to offer and that structure in a way as well as well as frame it in a way that, uh, fits the mindset of, well, oftentimes the folks are very busy, they know they need to do something, but they’re very busy. So, um, how is it, uh, how do you make it easy for them? In other words? And then, um, the last thing I would say is, um, it would how do you acknowledge them? Right. Um, it sounds really obvious, right? You know, their stewardship program, there are people will involve in thanking donors. But what I’ve found is that people found, uh, people thought there’s not enough thank you or there’s too much thank you. And they’re not thank through the right medium. And so, Uh, we’re not talking about, you know, $10 $20 where there may be hundreds and thousands of them and you can’t manage them one by one and customized it. But with major donors, it’s absolutely worth it to make sure that is customized to their preferences needs. So questions, the way that you frame as well as the acknowledgment part

[00:43:38.80] spk_1:
and the acknowledgement of the stewardship is interesting. Um, you say somewhere that they, these folks have a hard time understanding, uh, the name on a building. You know, why that why people find that appealing? Why some donors find that appealing? So, so a brick and mortar in fundraising was a brick and mortar recognition would not necessarily be appealing to them. But finding out what is appealing comes from, you know, maybe this, this three steps is sort of iterative, right? And if you’re starting to get near, uh, near something promising, you want to, you want to be finding out to about what they would like in terms of acknowledgement. Yeah. How would you like to be recognized what’s important to you?

[00:43:42.92] spk_0:
So I have a friend of mine who advised nonprofits with operations like this. And um, she helped one of them. She said, you know what, why don’t you just want to just ask?

[00:43:57.37] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:45:25.09] spk_0:
Uh huh. So he did, he created a survey through surveymonkey and you know, they have more than a handful so they can’t just call them up and ask them individually. So, um, he created a survey and he got over 70 response rate, which is really, really good, right? If you’re for for survey. And um, so the survey basically center around 33 things. Um, how would you like to be think? How often would you like to be think and through which medium do you most prefer to be think? And it’s not only do they have really good a feedback, but it’s such a positive gesture from the non profit to the donors saying, hey, we actually admit we don’t know, but we care and we should, we know what we don’t know and we care and now we really would like to learn more from our donors And that truly is a practical, helpful, informative donor centric step to take. And by the way, her name is Lisa Greer. She also has a incredibly helpful book called philanthropy revolutions. So it’s a mixed of, um, it’s a mix of memoir, it’s a mix of research because she told her story, but she also has interviewed over 100 principal gift level donors and um, and uh, and the last mix of how to. So it’s super helpful.

[00:45:41.44] spk_1:
How does lisa spell her last

[00:45:45.69] spk_0:
name? G R E R lisa Greer.

[00:45:54.79] spk_1:
What else? What else can you tell us Esther that uh, in terms of approaching these folks? Um, how about you get, I have a question for a little more specific question. How about you get their attention?

[00:49:04.47] spk_0:
Yeah, I know, um, getting the first meeting, it’s like 50 or 60 or, I don’t know, 70 of the work just being able to get in the call. Um, I think everything matters in the smallest amount of space, which is if you have no other ways to reach them. What do most people do? Emails and so make sure that your subject lined is the most attention grabbing as well as intriguing possible. Uh, way to, to get people’s attention by the way I have. I don’t know if I can memorize the four persona um, off the top of my head. Oh actually I do, I have it right in front of me. Um, my colleague scott more Dell. Um, he is the longest serving ceo of Waipio global young presidents organizations. So these are a lot of the highly concentrated, um first generation wealth around the world, 30,000 of them are around the world. Um, he actually put the their philanthropic tendencies in four ways. Um the idealist is the first one. Those are the ones that you want to make a true impact, long lasting impact. Soft societal problem. Another one is called the legacy Leader. Those are the one who really loves to leave, make sure they name last generations and generations that they are getting credit for the big impact that they made. The third one is called the model citizens and those are the ones that look around and understand what is the highest and highest of highest level of service and they want to be there and the philanthropic effort reflects that. And then the fourth one is called the busy bigwig. That’s the ones who are busy, extremely busy and yet they know they should do something but they don’t know what and how and so back to your questions of how do you get their attention? I think you should first by starting with having a point of view of Mhm. Of these four possibilities which one is this person most likely going to be. And then once you have a persona in mind, then is a lot easier for you to craft a message with the subject line that is most intriguing and attention grabbing for you. I get, despite what my clients and friends and colleagues know about me, I still get these extremely bland and generic um email messages that are, you know, if you just replace the logo of the nonprofits, I will fit anybody

[00:49:11.38] spk_1:
at

[00:49:35.07] spk_0:
all. And so, uh that would be the first thing I think about is have a persona in mind. Even if you’re wrong, it’s okay. Even if you’re wrong, at least you have a point of view about that person. But the upside is that Even if you’re not 100 right, just having the personal, that persona is going to help you speak to that person as if you know a lot about them already.

[00:49:49.87] spk_1:
Are you only really only going to get to them through an introduction or like somebody has to give you their email or I mean there’s not a directory of first generation wealth creators, is there? I know yours was obviously yours was anonymous, but because they’re a I don’t know is there a directory or

[00:50:00.81] spk_0:
something that I think that’s a really interesting question.

[00:50:04.75] spk_1:
Basic basic is what I major in

[00:51:01.96] spk_0:
basics. So really, really interesting question. I love the way you think about things. tony Um Not only is isn’t there one um they really know how to how to hide their wealth. You know, they believe in stealth wealth, not only because of the way they live their lives, but they know how to put things in all things in trust and so everything comes through a different name. And um data can help, um, the right kind of data can, uh, data enriching as well as data matching. Um, I don’t know a ton about it, but I know enough because there’s another company that I co founded that like, that’s all we do because in the old ways, how do you get names of donors? Okay. You ask your board, uh,

[00:51:20.56] spk_1:
that’s how you start. A small organization starts. But, um, but then now, I mean, now we have social media and you can have a campaign and see who gives to that. And then you then you do some research on those folks to see who, who might be, uh, have the capacity to do more. And then you expand your relationship even with the others who may not have capacity, but our willingness.

[00:51:22.66] spk_0:
But see, I I think there’s a lot in your current database that is not being fully utilized,

[00:52:05.85] spk_1:
that maybe for some folks. Yeah. And uh well, because we’re talking about stealth wealth. I mean, yeah, that’s that’s certainly possible. I mean, these these folks live modest, live modest means. I mean, Uh at least outward. Um I mean what, 20 years ago, there was the book the millionaire next door. I mean that’s essentially what we’re talking about this is there are more Zeros now and there are more of them. And we’re in a more financially mobile society now than we were 20 years ago. But the concept is the same that there are these hidden families of wealth that that are may very well be in your database. You know, then it was the millionaire next door now the millionaire in your the ultra high net worth in your database.

[00:53:26.15] spk_0:
Yeah. And when you, you know, go back to the questions, the way that you ask questions of when you have an opportunity to talk to a donor directly. As well as the way that you ask questions about your databases. Um That can really help you look for hit millionaires billionaires right in front of you were in front of your eyes. I wouldn’t be surprised that there are already uh but you aren’t you’re you’re not even aware that you’re pretty close when lisa and night um because of our share passion about this topic and she’s really doing it full time. I’m doing this. This is because This is my baby. Uh you know the first time she wanted to make a a principal gift um to her local hospital. Um she uh budget for $2 million dollars for her hospital and it took the hospital seven months to pay attention to her. And $2 million dollars isn’t a small amount for that hospital. It is definitely a major amount.

[00:53:57.95] spk_1:
But the latent, unconscious sexism, I’ve heard this from women. I do plan to giving fundraising, but I’ve heard this many times from women just ignored when they made explicit overtures. Not just subtle hints, but explicit overtures. You know, I want to do this. I want to remember the organization in my estate plan and, you know, ignored, repeatedly ignored. So, unfortunately, what you’re describing, your friend, lisa’s, uh, I don’t think it’s so uncommon.

[00:54:03.23] spk_0:
Yeah, I

[00:54:21.34] spk_1:
think it’s, I think there’s some, I think there’s just unconscious latent sexual, uh, not sexuality, sexism, uh, uh, in fundraising, it’s and money is left on the table as a result, died from the morality of the, uh, of the, of that that misunderstanding.

[00:54:41.64] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. So, so it’s haven’t seen quantitative research on just how frequently that happened, but that’s leases from her research, from her personal experience from your experience. So I think there are actually plenty of money within reach of nonprofits that they probably have missed, but they didn’t know they have,

[00:55:25.64] spk_1:
we’re gonna leave it there, it’s perfect. Now you have opportunities and I know that our conversation has stimulated thinking about how to find these folks and how to transform your partnership with them Esther choi the research is transforming partnerships with major donors. I’ll give you the full title aligning the key values of first generation wealth creators and fundraisers in the age of winner takes all. You get the research at Leadership Story Lab dot com. That’s where Esther’s company is. Leadership Story Lab and also at Leader Story Lab, Esther choi I want to thank you very much.

[00:55:27.50] spk_0:
Thank you. This is such an invigorating conversation, thank you for the opportunity.

[00:55:47.64] spk_1:
Thanks for saying you’re glad that I asked you were one of the generous, generous guests. I’m glad you asked that I got, I got chills. Thank you Esther next week, overcome your fear of public speaking. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:55:50.02] spk_0:
I beseech

[00:56:00.84] spk_1:
you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o

[00:56:03.44] spk_2:
Our creative producer is Clear. Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark

[00:56:08.57] spk_0:
Silverman is our web

[00:56:09.49] spk_1:
guy and this music

[00:56:13.74] spk_2:
is by scott Stein, mm hmm. Thank you for that information, Scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 8, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

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Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

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Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2020: Personalized Philanthropy

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My Guest:

Steven Meyers: Personalized Philanthropy
It’s his 3 killer apps for fundraising that make Steven Meyers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remain largely outside the mainstream, for no good reason. (Originally aired 6/17/16)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome

[00:01:22.90] spk_2:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. The Innovators. Siri’s continues this week, as last week was, our first continues this week. Now, every show is not gonna be an innovator. Show like next week will not be an innovator, but the innovators air peppered in on and the others are brilliant guests that have very smart ideas to share. Just not quite innovators. Okay, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our second show in the Innovators. Siri’s personalized philanthropy and live innovators are coming. I promise. It’s his three killer APS for fundraising that make Steve Myers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remained largely outside the mainstream for no good reason that originally aired June 17th 2016 on tony Stake to planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cook, a Mountain software Denali fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is personalized Philanthropy

[00:01:49.24] spk_3:
I’m very pleased that Steve Myers is here in the studio for the hour. He is vice president of the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science and author of the book Personalized Philanthropy. Crash. The Fundraising Matrix. He’s a frequent and popular speaker, and he’s at Steven Myers. 863 S T e v E N N e Y E R s Welcome, Stephen Meyers. Welcome to the studio.

[00:02:17.49] spk_4:
I love tony.

[00:02:23.58] spk_3:
Glad to have you in person. I love it here. Glad you’re here. Um, let’s start with the basics with the title. What is this Matrix That you want people to crash?

[00:02:48.34] spk_4:
Yes, the book is called Crash The Fundraising Matrix. Because, um, it reflects what my experience was when I I I was in the process of writing the book when I realized all along that I’d been living in these two cultures that were completely unaware of each other and the Matrix. The movie The Matrix is the perfect metaphor for describing these two cultures. If you remember in the movie

[00:02:57.42] spk_3:
you have to describe, I didn’t see the movie

[00:03:07.71] spk_4:
in the movie. People were taken over by cybernetic implants, robots, machines that rebelled against humanity. And they existed only in, ah, like in a computer matrix. And everybody in the Matrix was really unaware of it. They just thought that everything was normal. They were living in their normal lives, and they didn’t realize that they were kind of being held prisoners, that they were enslaved in a sense. And that’s what the movie is about. When this one person that called Neo the one wakes up to the fact that he’s living in this synthetic artificial environment.

[00:03:35.22] spk_3:
You are You are our neo

[00:03:55.21] spk_4:
I am, and I’m standing in for all the fundraisers who are trying to wake up who feel the same sense of something’s just not right in my world is the fundraiser, and that was the experience that I had. Um, and I wanted to write the book to share that with people so they could wake up, help them to wake up and kind of escape the confines of the silos and the channels that they’ve been stuck in for so many years. Okay, sometimes without even realizing it.

[00:04:16.26] spk_3:
Okay. Uh, so you’re neo nickname Neo? Okay, Steve Neo Myers. Um, all right. Rob was deconstructing The titles are working away backwards. Now, what is the this model Personalized philanthropy

[00:05:26.24] spk_4:
Personalized philanthropy is is the antidote the opposite of what goes on in the Matrix? If you think about fundraising and philanthropy when it translates into the way that we work, it’s really like there’s two cultures. There’s an institutional focused culture which is focused almost entirely on trying to make campaign goals and reach objectives within the annual department or the major gift department. And the plan giving department. And even the small organizations tend to mimic these thes Silas and channels. My first experience was in really working and maybe a two man organization to people, and one of us was assigned this one channel and the other one of us was assigned to the other channel. And how ridiculous is that? It’s a counter intuitive. So the institutional focus is set off against this personalized focus, where instead of trying to service the campaign. You’re trying to serve the interests of donors. You meet the donor where they are instead of where the institution is. So you’re really talking about a whole new definition of what philanthropy is and what fundraising is. Four.

[00:05:55.34] spk_3:
We’ve been talking about donor centered fundraising for a dozen years or so Roughly, maybe, maybe more. Sure. I mean, I’ve been fundraising for 19 years. I don’t think we started out that long ago. But donor centric fundraising donor centered has been around for I’d say at least a dozen years or so. Why is how are you neo gonna gonna make this different and actually get us to where donor center is supposed to have been a CZ long as 12 or 15 years ago.

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
We’ve been talking about donor centered this and donor center that for a really long time, but we really haven’t had much to do about it. Um, when some people talk about donor centered fundraising, they’re talking about recognizing the donor or maybe finding a vehicle that they’re talking about selling a vehicle that they need to sell in order to make to bring that donor in so really donor centered fundraising and that’s really a copyrighted. It’s a trademarked. Yeah, Um, and it it really could have to do with how you thank them. How you write to them, how you called, cultivate them. But it doesn’t really have anything to do with what fundraising and philanthropy is about which, under my definition, the deafness that I’ve been working with is trying to mesh the compelling needs of interests off a donor with the compelling needs of the organization. So that changes. If you start with that definition where the donor’s needs matter, that’s the focus is on them. I really refer to this is donor focus giving rather than donor centered giving because the shift means that you’re focused on trying to understand the compelling interests in the passions of the donor and how they would connect to your organization. All right, that’s much different than the institutional focus

[00:07:33.14] spk_3:
on our hope. Personalized philanthropy is gonna is not gonna take this long to be really be realized, as as donor the donor centered trademark name. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. You’re the You’re the evangelist for for personalized philanthropy.

[00:07:37.75] spk_4:
I believe I am,

[00:08:04.99] spk_3:
I presume. Okay. Very good. We got the right person, and I mean you you brought the book. All right, Um, there’s let’s make sure now we just have a minute or so before break, but we got plenty time to talk. We’re you know, you’re here for the full hour. Let’s make sure that small and midsize shops know that they have. This is applicable to them. And they probably have advantages in trying to pivot to to be personalized philanthropists, philanthropies sent centers or shops, right?

[00:08:36.44] spk_4:
Yes. When I wrote the book, I was thinking of the person like me who was working in a small shop who had a background in annual giving and found themselves working in a major giving field. So for me, they were always connected. And I think that this is about empowering and enabling a person in a small shop to make a difference with every donor that they work with, not just the ones that there focused on for annual or planned or major giving. You meet the donor where they are. That’s the That’s the magic of this.

[00:08:43.74] spk_3:
Okay, excellent. All right. I want that reassurance. I’m very glad to hear it. And ah, Steve and I are gonna keep talking about personalized philanthropy. Stay with us.

[00:09:18.75] spk_2:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new C p A. A firm whose service is excellent, provides clear directions and timetables, is easy to work with and where you know, a partner That’s heat Coach Tomb has been a guest several times on the show. He’s gonna be coming back, and he will tell you whether Wagner can help you in 2020. So you start at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone and talk to eat. Now back to personalized philanthropy.

[00:09:29.78] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, um, you talk about in the book you mentioned a few times Transformation over transaction Flush that out from. Yeah,

[00:10:17.64] spk_4:
there’s two ways to think about fundraising the usual ways to think about the donor period and have a colleague who was written a book about the Donor Life Science Cycle Pyramid and the Pyramid. You’re thinking about transactions. You’re thinking about where a donor falls as a major donor at the top, in the middle or at the bottom. Transformational fundraising. You really thinking about time you’re thinking about loyalty? You’re thinking about relationships and they can take place over time. And the problem with with the pyramid style, the transactional, is that each transaction is separate and unrelated to all the others. What personalized philanthropy does is it creates a new model where all the transactions are connected to one another so that each gift can count in a way that would never count ordinarily. And it could explain. I can give you an example

[00:10:20.15] spk_3:
of examples stories. Just imagine.

[00:11:01.84] spk_4:
Imagine a rope. What end of the rope is the first gift and another end of the rope is the last gift. This is the chain of value in in in plan giving in and fundraising. And if you know all the all the value comes out at the end when the donor dies, implant giving it well, really. And if you think about the lifetime value of a donor, the big gifts come at the end. Yes. Okay. Ah, and you’re looking for bumps and major gifts and special gifts gifts. You make frequently gifts you make once in a while during a campaign and gifts you make once when you die. So what you have is you have a long rope with a lot of knots in it. What you’re gonna do and personalized philanthropy is you’re gonna move this rope around and you’re going to connect all of the knots. And that’s good means that all of these gifts are going to be connected with what another and they’re going to be united around, Ah, common purpose that the donor has an objective goal that not one gift could achieve. But all together, they can start to make a big difference during the donor’s lifetime. That’s a radical rethinking of how philanthropy works.

[00:11:26.88] spk_3:
Can we tie the two ends of the rope together and make a circle so that it’s it’s unending and non never breaks a

[00:11:34.59] spk_4:
circle? Or you could make a

[00:11:36.25] spk_3:
don’t make a new You don’t make the news.

[00:11:43.13] spk_4:
You make it. You’ll make a circle. You’re making really a tapestry like a like a Persian rug, each each. A lifetime of giving has a different design, and each donor kind of weaves their own tapestry of giving as they go through their life.

[00:12:01.54] spk_3:
Okay, I won’t force you to take the metaphor any further. We’re going to start making cat beds, and that’s not okay. Okay, um, Now, you you run at the Weizmann Institute, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. I’m I’m betting that it wasn’t called the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. When you first got there, you had to make some changes.

[00:12:26.42] spk_4:
I was the national director of plan giving that I was the national vice president for plan giving. And then ultimately, we decided to abandon the title of plan given, because

[00:12:28.02] spk_3:
sounds very solid. And may Trixie to me. Well, it was

[00:12:38.14] spk_4:
it was we came to realize that plan giving us Justus much asylum or channel has any of these other pains, and we weren’t working that way anymore. So we wanted to change that. Actually, what inspired the change from plan giving to personalized philanthropy was when my organization, the Weizmann Institute, decided to establish a center for personalized medicine. That’s a collaborative, multi disciplinary, interdisciplinary program where people are, um, um, collaborating in all kinds of new ways. And when I heard that phrase personalized medicine, You mean this medicine is designed for one person only. And it’s gonna work the first time

[00:13:11.97] spk_3:
in their DNA to select connected

[00:13:56.12] spk_4:
with that with their Deanna. Why, You know, that just was a wake up call for me that that’s what Philanthropy and fund raising Auto bay. All right, one of you kind of full spectrum. All the building blocks should be available to you. You bring them toe where the donor is, rather than trying to sell them something that you have you been instructed, really? Basically toe bring to them and ask them, Would you make a gift of X for this math, building, math and science building? And it doesn’t matter if the person cares about math or science. Maybe they were in the art department or they were a into literature or poetry. And why would they?

[00:14:15.44] spk_3:
Yeah, but we need based on our needs, space, the organization’s needs. But now you had to do some cultural and organizational change to create the the the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. What advice do you have for people who want to initiate this in their own organization? How do we start that conversation?

[00:14:31.62] spk_4:
I wouldn’t make a lot. I wouldn’t wait a lot for the organization to change its culture or its policies or procedures. Personalized plate. That is something that you could begin to think about when you kind of open up your your mind first realize that there is this matrix of Silas and channels that all of our fundraising basically is in. Right. And you want to try to find a way to connect your current giving in your future, giving around where your donors are at. And in order to do that you need like like an personalized medicine. They have technology. They have. They’re using technology in new ways. They have computational biology, so they could look at all this life science information in a systematic way. And this technology allows them to personalize medicine. So we have to have some tools that allow us to do this. And so I developed these things that I called killer APS. They are gift designs for bringing together current and future gifts that could be personalized and individually tailored to work with each donor.

[00:16:09.74] spk_3:
Yes, and we’re gonna get to the killer APs. But where were sporting neos throughout the throughout the world And there are in small, most of them listeners. There’s a small and midsize nonprofits, and they want to start a conversation about making a shift to personalize philanthropy from the Matrix that they are now burdened with right? I were want some tips. How did they start? But they’re going to sound like a lunatic the first time they go to their vice president or their CEO executive director, personalized philanthropy. And they have rope metaphors and not something you know how may be based on your own experience or, you know you’re coaching of others. How do we get this process started in our own currently matrix to shop?

[00:17:03.18] spk_4:
Well, as I said, the first thing you have to do is wake up to the fact that you’re working in a silo. Oh, and awareness awareness. And then you need to look outside of yourself outside of your silo. And, for instance, if you’re involved in playing giving, you know that one of the things that really makes that correlates with the plan gift is the donor who gives all the time. A donor who gives frequently tends to be the kind of person who wants to remember your organization in their estate plans. In fact, they may already have done that. So you would think, Wouldn’t it be amazing if we, without changing very much of this donor’s habit or pattern of giving. They could have a much greater impact today, instead of waiting until their death when they’re bequest comes in so kind of realizing that it’s possible Tiu have impact and recognition for a donor that begins right now.

[00:17:20.60] spk_3:
Okay, were so we’re gonna look to methods off current recognition and current value for both the organization and the and the donor, right, rather than long term. All right, All right, let’s start and and you have the killer APs before we get to the killer APS I think I’d like you just explain the spend rate because the Apsara largely dependent on an endowment spend rate, and there may very well be organization. I don’t even have an endowment yet, so let’s explain, spend rate.

[00:17:56.70] spk_4:
This personalized philanthropy works whether or not you have an endowment or not, Right. If you don’t have an endowment, you still need to have cash reserves, and you still need to be able to be financially sound. So that’s an objective that every organization has, even if they’re, ah, food bank or the kind of organization where they believe that they should not have an endowment. So

[00:18:05.04] spk_3:
there are a good number of them. There’s a

[00:19:09.34] spk_4:
lot of them out there, actually smaller ones, right? But the basic principle involved here is what I would call something like like this. It’s the grail of fundraising. The question that is not asked very often by donors to the organization is what’s the best gift that I could give you if I could give you anything that you wanted? Most organizations would ask for ID, like a gift of cash, and I like it right now. Thank you very much on and they would, and they would like to have it for general purposes. Um, but the question that they don’t know to ask is, Can we have a gift that will start working right away? Because we need to pay our bills. We have current deeds, and we also want to sustain ourselves for the future. So we need a gift that starts now and grows and scales up for the future. And most people in plain giving our only focus on the future. And most people in major and annual giving our only focus current president. So this grail of fundraising is the gift that really is the ultimate, the kind of gift that the organization needs the most but doesn’t even know how to ask for. OK, and that’s the kind of gift that we’re talking.

[00:19:17.70] spk_3:
All right, let’s define spend rate for people, and then we’ll get to your killer. APS spends Ben Drake

[00:19:21.72] spk_4:
please in an endowment on down when it’s usually thought to be the most important type of gift because a person makes a gift. And instead of being expended immediately, it goes into a bank account, an investment program, and each year a certain percentage of that fund is spent on the on the project or the program or the program, whatever that might be. And usually it’s like 5%.

[00:19:44.09] spk_3:
Yeah, I’ve seen between, like, three and 1/2 and five okay and used to

[00:19:50.64] spk_4:
used to be higher with the With Economy tanked a few years ago, I was spending rates began to to drop

[00:19:54.26] spk_3:
right because this is the amount that you’re spending from your endowment, and your endowment is supposed to be perpetual. So when investment returns or low spend rate spend, rates come down. This is typically decided by the board or maybe a committee of the board each year and Sometimes they look at the role of the average of the past three years returns. And that’s all financial stuff like

[00:20:15.68] spk_4:
if you What’s the idea?

[00:20:23.24] spk_3:
That, yeah, I’ve just wanna just feeling a little background, so to spend rate. So the spend rate changes from year to year. That’s the point. And typically you see same like three and 1/2 to 5. Or usually it’s

[00:20:46.84] spk_4:
around around 5%. And for the purpose of the conversation, it’s It’s pretty good. So that if someone makes $100,000 gift for an endowed scholarship and the scholarship is a proxy for whatever is something that’s really important to the donor into the school or the meshing, yes, then that $100,000 is going to produce, like, $5000

[00:20:50.38] spk_3:
each year we spend each year 5005% of endowment. Okay,

[00:20:54.90] spk_4:
so that’s how that’s how the spend rate works. And the goal of every fundraiser is to go out and get that endowment gift.

[00:21:00.65] spk_3:
All right, now we got the basics. Your first killer app is the virtual endowment. What is that? Well, that sounds very jargon e Virtually we have George in jail on tony-martignetti non profit radio. Okay, but I know you’re gonna get yourself out quickly.

[00:21:47.08] spk_4:
I’ll try. Well, you take that endowment that you just talked about the $100,000 that produces $5000 a year. You turned it upside down. This sounds like the veg. A Matic I didn’t. OK, he turned it upside down. It produces the donors, is giving you the $5000 a year every every year, say, for five years or 10 years. And that is going to be treated as if it were the product of an endowment that is yet to be created. So this donor has you in their will already say, for $100,000 they’re pretty comfortable giving you $5000 a year. They’ve been doing that without even being asked for him. It was maybe for general purpose.

[00:21:51.00] spk_3:
But they’re not comfortable giving you the $100,000 that’s right during their life, or at least at this point

[00:22:04.16] spk_4:
in their life. But their pattern of giving is such that an annual giver already and they care about the organization. So at the end of the rope, the end of the chain of living and giving is that $100,000? So why

[00:22:10.56] spk_3:
just come a little closer to the mic?

[00:22:14.46] spk_4:
Okay, thank you. So who is to say that getting that $5000 every year and then getting the $100,000 later where the program becomes self sustaining? Who’s to say that that’s not just a valuable as getting the $100,000 up front

[00:22:28.33] spk_3:
right? Okay,

[00:22:29.16] spk_4:
that’s a virtual endowment. And then with when the donor passes away, the virtual endowment essentially becomes a true and down

[00:22:53.82] spk_3:
okay. Or if they have a life event that changes their circumstances and they’re able to fund their endowment fully or maybe even half of some, you know, big Big bump while they’re living, that’s great. But in the meantime, they’re giving you what you would have spent from the endowment anyway. Brilliant. It’s very simple. Not too many organizations do this, though. I think

[00:22:56.53] spk_4:
it They don’t do that often because they’re focused on having a separate annual campaign, and they’re on to maintain that base of annual donors. And they have a whole maybe either they have a whole separate division of department and a department head who focuses on annual giving and another department that focuses on major giving it another one that focuses on plan giving. And they just they don’t connect up. And they have a lot of issues about who owns the donor and speak to the donor. So and what are you doing speaking to that donor there, Not a plan giving prospect,

[00:23:44.78] spk_3:
right? So if this this donor that you’re describing ah doesn’t meet the major gift level because here she can’t afford the $100,000 outright, then they’ll go to the Maybe they’ll drop to the or be shifted over to the annual giving team or something, but they won’t think of it as a virtual endowment. They’ll just think of it is we get $5000 a year from this person, but they’re not thinking longer term. And it’s usually when that annual fund silo

[00:24:03.46] spk_4:
in the Matrix that the preferred gift in the Matrix matrix general unrestricted gifts because we know how to spend your money better than you do right, and we need it to keep our operations go.

[00:24:12.49] spk_3:
So they’re not thinking about devoting it to a purpose that might later be endowed fully. That’s right. Later in the person’s life or at their data.

[00:24:18.83] spk_4:
And if if the purpose is central to the organization, if they had that endowment and they could do anything they wanted with it, they would most likely be funding those kind of programmes anyway.

[00:24:38.89] spk_3:
Yeah, okay. Okay. Killer APS. Okay, before we get to the killer APS ah, two and three just make clear why they’re called killer APS.

[00:25:08.44] spk_4:
They’re called killer APS because, like with any kind of technology, when new technology comes on, it just sort of wipes out everything that’s come before it thes when you employ the zaps and you work with them with donors, they achieve gifts that are so much greater. The donor you were talking about who was the $5000 donor now becomes a major donor because they’re giving $5000 a year and they have $100,000 on the books. So that could be, you know, a $200,000 down or even a much larger donor. It just changes the way you think about how you how you work. You really don’t want to go back to living in that silo Once you’ve been able to span plan major on annual giving through one of these per highly personalized gifts. They really work amazingly well.

[00:25:30.44] spk_3:
Excellent. Okay, we’re gonna take a little paws much more with Steve Myers coming up. We’re gonna talk about the philanthropic mortgage and step up GIF, ts and how your solicitations are gonna change.

[00:27:01.64] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software in the new year. Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. Meaning it’s built for you. For our community. Their customer service is excellent. So you know you’ve got backup if you need it. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take 24 Must have to start your plan giving in 2020. I hope that if you’re not already kicked off with plan giving, you’re not already deep into it. That 2020 is gonna be the year you get started. I have four things that I believe you need in place before you can get started there. Simple. But you gotta have some things lined up. Thio have ah decent chance of success of this at your inaugural planned giving program. And the first of these is you have to be at least five years old so that donors are confident that your organization will live beyond them. So I like to see at least those five years of history and for the other four must have for the other three must have of the four. Check out the video. It’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Steak, too. Now, back to personalized philanthropy. Our second entry in the Innovators, Siri’s

[00:27:11.82] spk_3:
Steve Myers never went anywhere. Took a couple sips of water. Thank you for your indulgence. Let’s talk about another killer app. The philanthropic mortgage. What you got going on there? The idea of

[00:27:47.84] spk_4:
the philanthropic mortgage seems so intuitive, but it’s something that we would never be able to think about in a highly silent and channeled environment that they call the fundraising matrix. Yeah, philanthropic mortgage. When you when you buy a house, you don’t have to pay for it in full before you move into it. You’re not. You create a mortgage. This mortgage you are paying you’re making like one payment and the payment goes partly for interests, and the other part of it goes to build equity in your in your home bills Equity principle? Yeah, yeah, building, building

[00:27:50.63] spk_3:
prints and build equity. But basically,

[00:28:50.05] spk_4:
the idea here is that you’re it’s just same ideas wth e the virtual endowment. A person can make a gift of that spending rate for the for the scholarship that they’d like to have. And so the scholarship can start up right away and then in the virtual endemic, they’re going to make slight, sort of like a balloon payment at the end of their life. They’re gonna pay it off through their request. But in the idea of a philanthropic mortgage, you can pay more than just the quote unquote interest. You could also pay a little more than the spending rate. The operating annual cost of that on that little bit extra goes to creating and building equity in your endowment fund. Beautiful. So over years over time, you could build the equity in your fund and your program can begin right away. So if you’re talking about a scholarship or a professorial chair, you get to meet that incumbent. You get to get the letters from them. You get to go and play an active part and have a relationship with the organization of the people that

[00:28:57.32] spk_3:
you’re supporting. So going back to our hypothetical before maybe that donor is giving $10,000 a year or 7500 year. 5000 is the spend rate. And then the surplus goes to start building up that endowment, which will be fully funded at some balloon payment with some balloon payment in future. That’s exactly what all right, all

[00:29:37.91] spk_4:
right. There’s an even more interesting example that relates to this up to a donor who’s maybe a little bit older and they’re going to have to. And they have an IRA Ira now that that the permanent ah charitable rollover is in effect, right? We know that it’s gonna happen all the time. We want to wait to the end of the year, and guests wait to the last minute so we could make these gifts whenever we want to. So that means if you’re working with the donor who is going to be 70 and 1/2 in the next couple of years, they’re going to start taking money out on a regular basis

[00:29:42.18] spk_3:
right that required minimum distribution

[00:30:34.95] spk_4:
wired to do that. And let’s say that they don’t need it to live. Then that could become, ah, part of the, you know, both part of the virtual endowment, and it can also be part of the little extra that they might have. So working with a donor who for the first couple of years is just paying the spending right to create a post doctor old chair in computer science because he loves that. But towards the end of the schedule, he’s going to reach the age of 17 and 1/2. He’s going to get a huge for him, at least required minimum distribution. That’s going to be his balloon payment, right? So he’s gonna pay the regular amount. And then the last year, he’s gonna receive a much larger amount from his IRA. And he’s gonna add that complete his the endowment that he writes for the post doctoral fellowship in his parent’s names.

[00:31:09.30] spk_3:
I’d like to think of the IRA now, especially because of the rollover is well, it’s actually a qualified charitable distribution, but everybody knows there’s a roll over because that’s now permanent. We might start to see, You know, Ira’s sort of become I have many foundation You can do your charitable giving through your i. R a. Have a count toward this required minimum distribution, which for a lot of people, is more than they want or need. And then you’re not You’re not text on it. You avoid the federal income tax on that, that distribution or that gift to, ah, the charity.

[00:31:22.88] spk_4:
So that only doesn’t have a value as a transaction. Because each time, as you pointed out, you don’t have to pay tax on the money that you’re giving away. You’ll never taxed on it. Essentially, you can use it strategically to grow your on pay the spending rate and the operating costs for your program. So we’re gonna begin right away,

[00:31:35.82] spk_3:
transformational and transactions. What? It’s okay. We agree. It’s not a hostile environment. You think you’re walking into a hostile environment? Yeah. Okay. Um, your final killer app is, uh, step up gift sort of a hybrid. Talk about talk about to step up.

[00:33:27.82] spk_4:
It’s a hybrid that person might be able to Ah, um this is one of those gifts that people wouldn’t think about because they would think that I could never have a professorial chair, at least not during my lifetime, because the professorial chair cost of 1,000,000 or $2 million that’s gonna be more than likely that will be in my estate. But I can’t really find a way to access that money now, however I can. I do have that $5000 that I’ve been giving every year for general purposes, and I could continue to do that for a number of years so I could start off by funding that scholarship we talked about earlier, that $100,000 scholarship that cost $5000 a year. So during my lifetime with Simon older donor, I could have that masters or other scholarship that could begin right now and then upon my death, um, the funds from my estate bequest for my estate could step up that endowment to the 1,000,000 or $2 million level. So basically my gift would step up from a master scholarship or a doctoral scholarship or a postdoctoral scholar ship all the way up to a professorial chair through my estate. Okay. And my plan would be put together so that the totality of my plane would be understood by both myself and by the charity that I’m working with from the very beginnings, right? This is a comprehensive that truly is a transformational give. It transforms from an annual gift to a major scholarship gift and to really a very substantial estate gift in there, all tied together around the same purpose, even though there are separate gifts that function for different purposes along the way. And then ultimately they all go for the same purpose.

[00:33:42.99] spk_3:
How do the killer APS and the smashing of the Matrix and the creation of a personalized philanthropy? How do these all come together to change our solicitations?

[00:35:39.14] spk_4:
That’s really a good question. I think it changes the way. First of all, it it changes the way that you think If you go back to the back to the movie The Matrix, when people see The Matrix, they sort of acquire these magical powers that could kind of see around corners and they can fly. They can defy the laws of physics because they understand the world in a in a way that was different in the way they understood it before. So if you are uh, if your practice becomes one of personalized philanthropy, you’re kind of working as an enlightened generalised. You have all the gifts, all the building blocks of philanthropy that you can bring to bear on each person wherever they are, and that’s going to change the nature of your work. You’re going to be basically sitting on the same side of the table as the donor, really an ally, ah, force to help them achieve what they want to and realize what’s what’s possible that they never would have thought was possible before by connecting all these small, modest gifts that they could make during their lifetime with the larger gifts that they could make through their estate, essentially changing the whole value change so the value can come out when they want it to come out and achieve that impact and begin to change society now. So that means that instead of just kind of being a hit and run kind of fundraiser like the annual fund people come in, I’d like to get the same thing I got last year, maybe a little bit more, and then move on to something else. Instead, you’re connected with the stoner through time. You’re not just looking at them at a point on the donor pyramid, you’re looking at their whole lifetime value as a donor and that that changes everything. The changes, the process for developing a personalized gift is much different. Thin. The solicitation of a typical asked for a regular

[00:35:59.12] spk_3:
Don’t you’re so stations. There’s gonna be more questioning and what’s important to you and what what brings you joy around the work that we do and right and more of a process than a discreet sit down. And the loser is the one who talks first after the ask is made. And then in four days there’s a follow up phone call. What are your thoughts about what we pitched very different.

[00:36:12.97] spk_4:
It’s it’s really completely, utterly.

[00:36:13.97] spk_3:
So what are some of the things that you ask about in your solicitation meetings? Well, it’s not

[00:36:25.93] spk_4:
that I ask any pursuit different questions than other fundraisers would. Just when I’m when I’m my thinking is different. I’m listening. I’m listening in a different way. And, uh

[00:36:30.34] spk_3:
So what are you doing? Let us into that neo brain. Okay, Well, what are you doing? What I’m trying

[00:37:25.54] spk_4:
to do is, I’m trying to discover what what matters to them and what I have that other fundraisers don’t have is that I have these killer APs that can connect to where the donor is so that if a donor has a habit of giving annually, I couldn’t begin to think about how might they have a greater impact by connecting all those gifts that they’re doing? If they gave for the last 10 years, $5000 a year? Chances are pretty good that they won’t be offended if we talk about. If you continue your pattern of giving, you could have a whole different kind of impact than you. Then you were having beef here, so it’s It’s a different, different tools and technology that I could use. I don’t have to sell them the math building when there are really more interested in the arts and music program. I could start with where with where they with where they’re at. Okay, so that that makes all the difference,

[00:37:32.33] spk_3:
right? Thanks for letting us into that head. We wanna when I want to be there, explicitly, even though we’re there for the hour. But it’s

[00:37:53.00] spk_4:
a good head to Bay because you you’re not just talking about donor centric donor focused giving. When you get this information, you can use it so that if a donor is ah, if they may already have included you in their estate plans, thanks a lot of donors they will that will do that without even being asked. That’s that’s where they begin. So you know that there’s going to be endowment. Possible atT. The end. Now you could begin to talk with them about connecting the current giving so that the impact of that future gift can start. Now.

[00:38:09.42] spk_3:
We have just about two minutes before break, and in those couple minutes I want you to flush out something. You talk in the book about the four Children from the Passover Seder? Yeah, just a couple minutes. How do they figure into this? The four Children who are they and what’s in there

[00:38:24.21] spk_4:
in the past, over in the past, over service. If this is part of the service that gets recited every year, so people know these names that might be familiar with him, so you could

[00:38:32.26] spk_3:
well, they think that we’re going to Passover seders. I’ve only been to one in my life, and I don’t remember the four Children.

[00:39:36.73] spk_4:
So the four Children, the Seder, are the wise, the wicked, the simple and the one who doesn’t know how to ask. So just imagine that these people have grown up and become donors and each one of them in the past, over service. The idea is to try to reach each individual, each type of Children of child where they are, um, and begin with what they are, who they are at, relate to them as individuals. Ah, and then you build out, you build out from that. So the four Children who begin to think about them as donors, you begin to focus on ah, where they’re at. If they’re wise, they might give it. That might be the kind of person who gives every year without being asked if they’re wicked. They might, uh, wicked is not. Ah, it’s not a bad term. In this case, it’s a kind of a positive thing because the person would be discerning very smart. They might have an interest in taking care of their loved ones as well. The donor, who is simple, just might begin with a bequest because as the seeds were planted before them. They will continue to plant the seeds for the future. And the donor who doesn’t have to know how to ask, is the one who has a charitable inclination but doesn’t know how to scratch that itch. So they’re the most fun to work with the ball.

[00:39:55.88] spk_3:
Beautiful. That’s great story. I kind of wish we’d ended with that, but we’re not anything but we’ll have a good ending anyway. Let’s go out for a break when we come back. Stephen, I’m gonna keep talking, talking a little about counting all these new gifts that you’re gonna be getting. Stay with us

[00:40:39.51] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation, you’ve got the best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and other media, and that’s how you get great coverage when it matters. Because you’ve got existing relationships. There are turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for personalized philanthropy.

[00:40:59.41] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, we’re gonna have lots of new gifts coming in, and you’re pretty. You’re pretty generous about counting. You don’t seem very generous. Don’t say that in the book, but it’s between between the lines you want. You want to give as much credit as possible? Not Not surprising. Really? Um, yes. Yes, you do. Um, let’s talk about, say, I’m gonna hash. We break this down So we look at the killer APS and how they would be counted or what? You’re what? You’re counting philosophy. Generally. Let’s start there.

[00:41:11.01] spk_4:
Okay. Uh, the prime directive for me in counting is don’t just count one number.

[00:41:18.61] spk_3:
Yes. You said that explicitly. The book? Yeah.

[00:41:32.18] spk_4:
Everything in our lives. It’s the sort of damage, please. Hanging over the head of every fund raiser, its financial resource development. And, um, how much did you raise? You have to How much did you raise? What did you raise? And if

[00:41:35.53] spk_2:
you don’t have

[00:42:56.62] spk_4:
an answer for that, someone else will. It’ll be a new accounting formula financial formula that tells what the present value is of all the gifts that came in. And of course, the president value doesn’t include bequests or request expect expectancies. It doesn’t include the kind of cultivation in the activities that you d’oh. It reduces everything that comes out of the system that doesn’t not have a present value. Yeah, and as fundraisers know, there’s a lot of things that we do that that would be considered his fundraising achievements that normally don’t count. So we wanna have a way of describing what it is that we do that goes along with how we feel about what fundraising achievement actually is. So when I say don’t count just one number, what we’re really saying is there is one number that you have to be aware of it. Everybody has to know that. But there’s a complement of that one number, and it’s a multi dimensional set of numbers that can help us to measure our own effectiveness and convey to the people that we are working with and for what all this fundraising has been about. And really, there are three kinds of gifts that we we like to count outright gifts that count 100% gifts that there would be like Category one gifts,

[00:42:58.32] spk_3:
cash and cash equivalents. Call those the category one cash

[00:43:04.90] spk_4:
cash equivalents that would include pledges that air like payable over a couple of years.

[00:43:06.84] spk_3:
Legally binding. I get legally binding pledge.

[00:43:51.20] spk_4:
It’s legally binding. Pledge is okay, and legally binding pledges could include pledges that are payable over 12 or three years but also pledges for older donors that are going to be considered as bookable or irrevocable from their estates. That’s another type of ah, gift that would count in this cash or cash equivalents. The second category is the irrevocable gifts that we we raised the charitable remainder trust and gift annuities and part of the value of them would count in that one number, and the rest of the wood would not count until they were later received. And the third category is revocable gifts or or bequests that are expected but that have not yet been received.

[00:43:54.38] spk_3:
And they’re not legally binding.

[00:43:55.79] spk_4:
And they’re not. And they’re not legally because

[00:43:57.51] spk_3:
there are ways of making a bequest legally binding. If the person signed a contract to buying their estate, um, testamentary contract. Okay, so

[00:44:14.13] spk_4:
this, uh, this journey towards personalized philanthropy really began for me with this question of what am I doing here? What?

[00:44:14.85] spk_3:
I just asked that question about 1/2 an hour. Just asked. That’s a

[00:44:40.24] spk_4:
really good question. You should always be asking, What am I doing here? And if you’re on task, you’re doing something that relates to one of those kinds of gifts. You’re cultivating a donor for a future gift your culture. Get cultivating them for a gift that can provide income to them now and a gift to you later. And you’re also cultivating the firm, a gift that they could make now and that you can have now that could be both cash or it can be assets other other than cash. And that’s how you would evaluate what you’re doing in kind of a multi disciplinary way.

[00:44:49.22] spk_1:
How do you

[00:44:57.49] spk_3:
like toe? Give credit to fundraisers for activities that aren’t quantifiable, you know, advancements in a relationship. But the person didn’t increase their giving this year or pledged to in the future. You know all those activities that meaningful but non quantifiable,

[00:45:09.68] spk_4:
right? Yeah. You want to

[00:45:10.65] spk_3:
How do we help fundraisers be recognised? Well,

[00:45:42.77] spk_4:
you know, we develop metrics out of these out of these out of activities, and you try to figure out the ones that are going to be important for you, and you embrace the ones that are important for you now sometimes, um, people go way overboard on this. There was one fundraiser that I know who travels around a lot to meet with donors. And his supervisor wanted to him to quantify, um, how much, um, money per per mile he was raising. He said, Oh, no, no,

[00:45:46.45] spk_3:
I won’t do that on.

[00:45:48.10] spk_4:
He was senior enough that he was able to avoid that in another system. They wanted to know. What is this fundraiser doing? Every 15 minutes? It’s almost

[00:45:56.80] spk_3:
Oh, my God, It’s like law firms.

[00:45:57.84] spk_4:
Like a lot

[00:46:11.12] spk_3:
of booking for way. I used to book a six minute increments. All right, we just have about a minute, lad. We don’t want to do right. We do that. That’s not to do we have about a minute left? Leave us with some things that we should be measuring to give credit to fundraisers. Some examples of what you measure you like to measure

[00:46:39.89] spk_4:
well, when you, when you do these blended gifts with blended gifts come from a combination of current and future gifts. So you want to measure the gifts, all of their dimensionality, so that you could compare them to the single present value along with all the value that they’re going to bring to the organization beginning right now. So if you’re going back to the person that we were speaking of before, go

[00:46:40.25] spk_3:
ahead, you have to wrap it up.

[00:46:41.22] spk_4:
Okay, Well, uh, their gift is gonna have an immediate impact, and it’s gonna grow and scale up over time. And that’s what you want to try to achieve that, That that’s the grail of fundraising.

[00:47:12.14] spk_3:
And that’s if you want to track yet. Okay, we have to leave it there. Steve Myers, vice president, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science. You’ll find him on Twitter at Steven Myers. 863 The book. Get the book. It’s personalized. Philanthropy crashed the fundraising metrics. It’s at Amazon, and it’s also a charity channel, which is the publisher

[00:47:59.44] spk_2:
next week. Our innovators, Siri’s continues with leading systems change. What did I say earlier in the show that next week would not be innovators? Siri’s? That was a mistake that definitely is the innovative Siri’s third entry, and it’ll be alive. Finally, live innovators. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com It’s still occurs to me. I need an intern to blame for these mistakes. It’s it’s unbelievable. By Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? So if you know anybody who wants to be a blamed in turn in the future, resume to tony at 20 martignetti dot com and also by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Our creative producer is

[00:49:04.47] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lieber, which is the line producer thief shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Great voice just cracked talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, Huh?