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Nonprofit Radio for May 24, 2019: Small Dollar Donor Power & Donor Retention

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My Guests:

Sara Kerrigan of ActBlue and Carrie Mann of Friends of the Earth

Sara Kerrigan & Carrie Mann: Small Dollar Donor Power
Small dollar donors are shifting the digital fundraising landscape. Our panel reveals basic principles of running a sustainable program online. They’re Sara Kerrigan from ActBlue and Carrie Mann with Friends of the Earth. (Recorded at 19NTC)





Laura Cole and Paul Habig of Sanky Communications

Laura Cole & Paul Habig: Donor Retention
Now that you’ve got new donors, learn how to keep them with you: Avoid retention pitfalls, leverage technology and track the right metrics. Our teachers are Laura Cole and Paul Habig, both from Sanky Communications. (Also recorded at 19NTC)





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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Skip Tosa Maya sis, if I got infected with the idea that you missed today’s show Small dollar donor power Small dollar donors are shifting the digital fund-raising landscape. Our panel reveals basic principles of running a sustainable program online. They’re Sara Carrigan from Act Blue and Carry man with Friends of the Earth that was recorded at 19 and TC. And don’t a retention now that you’ve got new donors, learn how to keep them with you. Avoid retention pitfalls, leverage technology and track the right metrics Our teachers, our Laura Cole and Paul Hey Big, both from Sang Ki communications that’s also recorded in 1990 si on Tony’s Take two. Be a good American. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuing by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations made easy Text NPR to 444999 Here is small dollar donor power. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 ntcdinosaur. What that is it’s a 19 2019 non-profit technology conference. You know that we’re in Portland, Oregon, at the convention center. All of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me. Now are Sarah Kerrigan seated next to me? Email Director Attack blew and carry man, Deputy Director of digital membership and advocacy at Friends of the Earth. Carry Sarah. Welcome. Thanks. Carrots are looked upon with Welcome. Welcome. Both of you. Welcome the non-profit radio. Okay. Your topic is the largest group of untapped charitable givers. Small dollar donors. Um, Sarah, what do you feel like? Non-profits don’t fully appreciate about small dollar donors. Why do we need this session? Yeah, well, I think it’s really important. I would actually say that non-profit They actually do really appreciate small dollar donors that I’ve that I’ve seen on. Really? The our goal of the presentation was just doing power non-profits to take the case to their boards or their directors and say like, Hey, this is actually like a really good use of fund-raising on. And it’s also a really good way to engage people move their mission forward. Sometimes it just takes somebody to really, like, dive deep into email on to dive deep into those fund-raising strategies for people to feel empowered to take that business case, you know, straight to their organizations. Okay, carrot. So I assume you’re working with ActBlue. Yes, we are. OK. Were you the person that Sarah just referring to? I went to your leadership and said, this is worth investing in. That was before my time. But it’s carried on. Yeah. OK, so so glad that your predecessor did that. All right, All right, So where’s the best place to start? Well, uh, if we’re if we don’t feel we are capturing all our potential in small dollar donors, where What’s the first thing that we need to have in place before we can be effective with the campaign? Yeah, that’s a really good question. Eso actually email is the driver of the vast driver of all contributions. So, really, all you need is an email program, andan email list and just a message, and you can easily write your own emails and send it out to your audience. Of course, you can use an act, Liu wink if you so choose, Um, but, yeah, it’s really, really easy to tap into small dollar donors. Really, all you need is an email address and names, and then you can go ahead and get started. Okay, you don’t have to screen for who the best the best prospects are. Well, now, I mean, there’s also there’s other different acquisition strategies that you can absolutely use. But if you’re just starting from ground zero like really, all you need is an email list, a new email address, and you can get started with your own fund-raising. Okay, Alright, Carrie, how how successful has been at Friends of the Earth? It’s been huge for our programas a hole. When I first started in front of the Earth, we had about 225 2 150,000 people on their email lists, and it was raising a pretty negligible portion of our budget. Now we have about one point 8,000,000 people on our list, and it’s raising over two and 1/2 $1,000,000 a year. All right, all right. That’s, uh, explosive. How do we define what does? Does the definition of small dollar donation Barry from organization, organization or you feel like it’s all pretty consistent, Like we’re talking like 15 $2025? Is that Is that what friends of the Earth that you define small dollar when you have these conversations? Yeah, I mean, really, we aren’t going to turn down $1,000 contribution if somebody wants to do that online. But for the most part, we’re seeing people giving and more of that $1,000 30 to $50 range online on DH. Just giving, sometimes more than once a year, three or four times a year. And yeah, that lower dollar level. Okay, All right. So, Sarah, I have I have small dollar on my T shirt. How does ActBlue define what’s on my T shirt? Yeah, sure. So a small dollar donorsearch buddy who makes a contribution of 250 or less? That’s pretty much the standard that we use, but basically the whole goal about engaging small dollar donors that that goes beyond raising money. I mean, these are people who are marching their protest ng they’re volunteering, and they’re really pushing. Non-profits causes forward and That’s really the message that we want to drive home, that it’s just like it’s not just about like fund-raising. It really is about building of movement, a powerful movement of people on DH. Usually that massive movement of people that we see are small dollar donors because they’re the most engaged. Okay, Okay, um, you’re in your session. You talk about some basics principles of running a sustainable small dollar program. So let’s start with uses were way. Stay with you. I should say, uh, what, you got to start with some basic principles. Yeah, sure, I’m the number one thing. Is this treating your supporters with respect? I mean, we live in a world right now where there’s just so much content, like were saturated with content, especially is Carrie and I are both email professionals. It’s just so important to really look at your email program and say, like, you know, we really should choose a tree. Donors with respect there’s a lot of email programs out there that kind of focus solely on fund-raising and bottom line in our in our position is we really need to build like a sustainable program again, where we just create content where people feel like you know, they want to be on the email list and they want to donate and they want to give and they want to get their time, money and energy towards the mission. How do we show that respect? Well, there’s lots of different ways Way don’t hold off on Don’t hold back on non-profit radio listeners. Yeah, How do we How do we show it took off a couple ways? Sure, eso being honest with people about why you’re asking him to give money is very important. I’ll use an example about recurring donations. Something that we have found really successful is when we just asked people like, Hey, like, can you give a monthly $3 donation to support our cause? A lot of people shy away from that because like, Oh, my gosh, I’m asking somebody to give 35 $10 a month. That seems like a pretty big ask, but really, just being honest and upfront about what you’re doing and why it’s important is super important. Also, being timely, being like relevant to the moment is super important, like people want to be engaged on. People really want Teo hear from your organization, right when the moment happens, thinking about like family separation of the border. They’re just so many people who wanted to be involved and so having a way to talk directly to supporters. Eyes really important. So I was a honest, timely And of course you need to add value, Tio. I mean your email program. It’s definitely a two way street, right? We’re not just sending mathos ostomel just of fund-raising really has to add value to the support of this border has to feel engaged into your mission on DH. That’s another great way that email like, serves that purpose. What is what is friends of the Earth do carry to show this respect that Sarah’s talking about? Yeah, So if you think about what motivates a small dollar donor to give, it’s not necessarily because they care about the specific organization. They’re really trying to advance their values through through there giving, and that’s the way they see themselves as being able to make change in the world. So as we’re fund-raising from our small dollar donors, we want to give them the credit for the work the organization can do. Those aren’t our victories. There actually are donors victories when we win a campaign, it’s because people gave us $5 out of their Social Security checks, and they deserve the credit for that. Like that’s not ours. So how do you share that specifically What? How does friends of the Earth share that? Sure that impact. Yeah. We always use a lot of you language in all of our messaging. So we never say Friends of the Earth And this we say you did this. We want to make sure the word you appears in almost every paragraph in an email whenever we possibly Can you say if you save this or you change the law? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Okay. It’s time for a break. Pursuant. The art of first Impressions. How to combine strategy analytics and Creative two captive to captivate new donors and keep them coming back. That’s their e book on donor acquisition. It’s still up on the listener landing page. How do you make that smashing? First impression donor-centric keep them. This is how you keep them coming to you. It’s at Tony dahna. I’m a slash pursuant with a capital P make the capital P for pursuing this week. Now back to small dollar donor power. Like, how often do you communicate with you? Share the impact with somebody who’s let’s say, has gives three times a year is only at those three times, not it all way. Always want to be intertwining sametz impact messaging in every communication that we send for friends of the earth. That’s about an e mail a day for most people. So every single day, just reinforcing that narrative of like you can change laws, you can change policies you’re empowered to do. These things, whether you’re giving, are signing a petition or making a phone call to your decision maker. It’s all part of the same set of impact methods. So, like, it doesn’t really matter what way they’re engaging with us. We always want to be rewarding the impact that they’re having. Okay, so someone makes thes donations typically online. I’m assuming we’re talking about small dollar because they’re coming from e mails. All right, so they get an immediate getting immediate acknowledgement. Thank you. Absolutely. Okay. And then what would be the next? Uh, suppose it was a $25 gift. They get immediate. Thank you. When’s the next time would be the next day? You said. You said everyday. Is there any Is there any suspension of suspension of mailing for a couple days to give the person a break or they hear from you is like Day two. They’re going to get going, get some impact message. They could get something to hours later. Even if something happens out in the world and we need Teo, go to them and ask them to respond again. Like, for example, if somebody gives to help stop drilling in the Arctic. And then two hours later, Trump releases his next Arctic drilling plan. We’re not going to hold back that information from our supporters were going to share that with them, even if they just donated and ask them two hours earlier that gave $25 you’ll ask him to give again. We may not ask them to give again, but we would ask them to take action in some way, maybe to volunteer, get old solution way call legislator or something that Okay. Uh, all right. How about, uh, another? Well, honesty. You said honesty. I mean, they got don’t do flush out honestly do we mean? I think is pretty well understood. No, don’t lie to your supporters. Don’t like their potential. Supporters don’t like anyone. I think that’s just I don’t think that’s going further with that another we got lots of We got lots of time together. So still talking about basic principles of, ah, successful campaign, you want to stick with you, Go ahead. Yeah. So I think you touched on a little bit, Sarah, but with urgency and just making sure that when you’re asking people to give its relevant in that moment and you’re convincing them that by giving it will have an immediate impact. Still like, for example, if a bill is moving through the legislature right now like that’s why your contribution matters today, not tomorrow, not two weeks from now. And just constantly reinforcing that like this is the moment to engage. And if you want to have the maximum impact, now is the time. OK, Sarah. Another another principle. Yeah, sure. And she touched on and carry touched on this before. Teo, we really want to focus on building what I call horizontal relationships with our supporters. A lot of times non-profits and organizations across the board say, you know, we have this solution chip in if you want. Like we have this very big idea. We we’ve got it cover, but, you know, chip in to help us. But what we want to do is kind of take that messaging and move away from it. So it’s actually really saying to supporters like Hear that Here’s this issue. Let’s fight on it together. We cannot do it around about you helping us do it right, right, right. And it’s very, very easy on an email marketing to literally put help us in every single email. Ask. Well, Windows won’t eliminate the help us, and we actually really want to bring the supporter in. And I was telling folks during our presentation, There’s a study in the UK about horizontal relationships in sustainable giving, and people who are asked by their peers are actually twice as likely to give, which is really, really incredible on DH. That’s just something that we really want people to focus on for writing emails that sound like they’re coming from your parents. We like a vertical relationship. You probably want to stay away from that. You probably want to make sure that it’s really coming from like a respected here peer-to-peer peer-to-peer rancor. And that’s where that is from. Okay? Yeah. Okay. Um, why don’t we just keep taking off principles of success? I mean, I imagine that was a lot of your was a lot of yourself. Have you done your session yet? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. You’re on the downside then. Okay. I’m assuming a lot of your session was best practices. Basic principles. Yeah. Success in this thing? Yes. In this small dollar campaign. Give us another one. E. I mean, there’s there’s just so many. Another thing Teo is just having, like, a really, really clear email copy and just making it very simple for people to understand. Does that include short? Well, it depends. And email. We always say it defends. You should always, like test, but basically making sure that people the average like person spends 11.6 seconds reading your email, which is actually pretty long compared tto in the past. But it’s still 11.6 seconds. So just making sure that your email copy is super super clear. Your asks. They’re super clear. Your supporter is not left wondering what they khun D’oh! In that moment to drive the whole mission on the whole organization Forward. I mean, a lot of times I’ll see an e mail that has text, uh, wrapped around on action box in the in the upper right tech starts on the left. But if you want to cut right to the chase, there’s the language of the petition that we’re asking you to sign, Right? Just click there. You have to read the text explanation If you don’t want to. Yeah, yeah, and that’s accessible to everybody. Right? Like some readers like like to just immediately go on Like say, Okay, I know what I want to dio that. And then some people really like just like taking their time and background. Some people really feel down Notes of five foot note down the bottom, right, right. And being open to all levels of like readership is really important to we talked about in our training the power using inclusive language and making sure that your email copy is accessible, accessible to everyone, which is also I think that is very important in the state. How do you How do you ensure accessibility it was a couple of different ways to do that. Carrie actually mentioned a really good point with her email program, which I’ll let her talk more about. But usually people are 65 and over on email lists. So, Carrie, I’m going to kick it off to you to talk specifically about how you made it more accessible on your list. Yeah. So one of the things that we experimented with this font size. You know, a lot of people think that if you’re reading something on a mobile device, you want it to be clearly fitting the screen. But we actually found that for our older audiences, we needed 18 point fun on Mobile, which, if you think about what that looks like kind of computer, it’s huge on your phone. That’s like three lines can fit in the screen. But we tested it, and it just universally work better. Okay, Okay. How about what else do you test? What does the mother’s subject line, who signs we test took off? Well, name some names of other things besides everything. So, in one email, for example, if we’re sending a fund-raising message, we might test the subject line we might test the content. We might test the language on the donation page both in the headline of the donation page and on the body of the donation page. And we might test the ask amounts all in the same all at the same time. And so we really want to test every single piece of the experience all the time. Those of the results that were going to get back in a matter of minutes. We also might be doing some kind of long term testing. Like, for example, what happens if we segment based on highest previous gift? We might need to test that for six months to really understand the impact that’ll have. So while we’re doing all of this testing in the moment, we’re also have this backdrop of the long term testing that we’re running behind the scenes. Did you say you have one point 8,000,000 was 1.31 point. Okay, so you have the luxury of having a large, large numbers that you can test with. So I suppose a list supposed listens only 10,000. Can you still do? Abie testing with 10,000 persons list? Yeah. What? I’d like to tell people is don’t worry about getting sister’s school significance or being like a data purest. It’s fine. The goal, really for, like, email eyes just to improve your email content so that you can raise more money. That’s really all it takes. I mean, you, Khun segment off a 10,000 list into, like to, what? 2,000 list for subject lines and just see if there’s a bumper. Not really. Doesn’t have to be that complicated. And again, like our goal. For me, for AC Blue and for Carrie is like to make in this presentation is really It’s like, take, like the fear out of email and actually make it to listen right? Exactly. That’s what I should have said. The whole university invention non-profit treyz right there. There you go ahead. I cut you off. No, it’s okay. I know, but really it’s like take the fear out of e mail on DH to take the fear out of fund-raising. This is something that anyone could. D’oh! Yeah, Okay, Okay, That would be a good rap up play point, but we have another 10 minutes left. Ok? Because this is 1/2 hour segment Yeah, so I’m not letting you off the hook, so that would be good. Rap will come back to you later, okay? In about 10 minutes. So let’s keep talking about I don’t know testing. Is there anything more we can say about testing? Either of you carry Sara about anything more you want to add about testing? I think the big thing is look for the stuff that’s going to have the greatest impact. So you know, you might test two versions of your content, but if it’s only one line difference, then you’re probably going to see a really small change. As a result of that is opposed to completely rewriting the E mail, you’ll probably see a much bigger change. And it’s not really that much more investment of time to create the much more different version and the results that you get well, just be that much more valuable. So we really look for the places that we can make those radical improvements or something we’ll just radically fail. But then at least we know, you know, rather than constantly testing around the margins. Okay, Okay. Test for significance. What have you found about who signs an email. You have signers to your email? Yeah. Now, of course, this is unique. Understands unique Teo, Friends of the earth. Thes result. Your your results may vary, but what has friends of yours found for us? Who signs What? Successful? Yeah. So we test it in two places. One is the sender, and one is who actually has their name at the bottom of the text. We have found that it makes osili no difference whose name is at the bottom of the texts. But the sender could make a really huge difference for us. The organisation’s name is usually the winner. So coming from friends of the Earth beats coming from our president’s name. But the thing that actually wins the most is just like a totally random like climate alert or be action. Something that is about the issue rather than about the organization or an individual. And that’s as a sender. Yes. Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay. Um Okay, so we’ve exhausted testing. We feel like you said everything. It was there more. Anything more. You want to know about testing, testing principles? Yeah, I think it’s just important for all testing. It’s really like optimizing your content ofthe devising your ask amounts, and it’s just a continual thing. Having one test for email is probably a good place to start and again, Really, anybody could do this. Yeah, okay, okay, Let’s continue with our basic principles. That good. Keep going, Sarah. Cool. Another basic principle. Trying to think. I mean, there’s just there’s just so many We went through so many again trying to think, Let’s get carried. You got one. You got one in mind in your mind, I think, like relevance is super important. Like, what do your supporters actually care about? It’s probably not the same thing that your organization’s leadership or even your organization staff really care about. So try to think about it from your supporters perspective. Like, what is it that makes them get excited about in our example? Environmental protection like water, the things that are their core values And how do you speak to those things like it’s probably not the amendment to the budget bill that’s passing through the house tonight. You know, that’s probably not thinking about Okay, right? How do you find that out? How do you know what your supporters were interested in? So I think some of it comes from just listening to the different staff of the organization who interact with supporters. If you have people who work in the community like if your service organization than get their stories go out on a site, visit with them for us. We always talk to our donorsearch Mrs Staff, who answered the phone from donor-centric leave the major donor calls, but the it’s all dollar donors who might give through direct mail or other channels who actually called the office to give us feedback that Khun just give a really interesting perspective on how people are interacting with us and then even things like social media or people who hit Reply on your mass e mail. You know it’s not data driven, but it can kind of guide some of your thinking and get you out of the bubble. So these air folks who call probably to complain about something sometimes I’m guessing most of the time, most of time, right. But you’re able to turn that call around first by satisfying hearing the principles we talk, you know, validating their concern, apologizing, fixing it on. Then you can get information from them about what it is that motivates them around. Friends of the Earth work? Absolutely. Yeah. So staff is all trained to do that. It doesn’t just happen. Doesn’t just happen. Staff is intentionally trained, you know, Let’s get some information while we’ve got these people on the phone and they’re feeling good, um, you’re familiar with the service recovery paradox. I’m not? No. Okay, that’s that because we’re talking about people calling and complaining. Ah, a person will be a person will be mohr committed to a brand. If there’s been a problem and it got solved, then if there was never a problem because they got the opportunity to be heard they had the opportunity to interact with staff on the problem. Presumably get solved. So they’ll be they’ll be more committed than the person who never has a problem, right? I think that that’s why it’s paradox Interesting. Okay, um, more principles. Sarah passed last time. So no person are you, Carrie, You give another one. Since we’re with you, then we’ll come back. So I’m never going back. But she passed up returns. Think if you’re talking about small donor fund-raising, you always want to make sure that you’re giving people the right ascot the right time. So if someone’s capable of giving $30 don’t ask him for five. If someone’s capable of giving $5 don’t ask them for 250. You know, all of our son isms have data, or you, Khun do some analytics to find out what each individual donors has previous gift is or if they’ve never given before you contest into what makes the most sense. But you want to be talking to people and meet somewhere there at rather than trying to, like a massively over sell them in a way that isn’t accessible. Okay, Okay. Before I ask you for principal, I’m gonna ask you, Sarah, how does one become a email? Your director of director of email? Yeah. That’s not a That’s not a major. No, no, we don’t go to college for that. How do you do? You work your way into that? Yeah, sure. So I graduated college and I it worked as a field organizer for then Senate Senator Kay Hagan. So I really liked what state? The state of North Carolina. OK, Yeah. I’m sorry. I should know that I should I own two homes in North Carolina. Really? Pinehurst and Emerald Isle. Okay, but I’m not from there. Yeah, I didn’t know. Okay, Don’t. Yeah. Now it’s now it’s ber until us all right now the current. Yeah, we lost another current guys. Yeah, but I didn’t know. Okay? Yeah. Eso graduated field organizer. I love talking to people, but I didn’t think that knocking on doors was going to be my life’s calling And my life’s work. Eso ended up getting into digital fund-raising Just because I was just you could talk to people at a massive scale which is really empowering and very cool Uses both sides of your brains. You could be like creative. But of course, we’ve talked a lot about testing on this times. You kind of have a science to it. Also right. Eso I’ve spent like 4 to 5 years and political fund-raising, so I work for the DSCC. I work for Revolution Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. Okay. Yeah. I worked for a revolution messaging a za consultant there, and I was formally the deputy email director at the Democratic National Committee, the DNC, where we had a multi $1,000,000 programme and I’m up at blue. So I’ve been very fortunate to have really great, like female mentors on work on female teams. And so I credit them a lot. Teo, you know where I’m at today on DH. There is a lot of space for women to be an email. There’s a lot of space for young people to be an email on DH. There’s a lot of space for people who haven’t really been involved in email. Toe start. I was with a panel yesterday, which was called I don’t have you know, I left him back in the hotel yesterday’s notes, but was called grit. Female was basically female technologists go that you’re nodding. I didn’t It’s okay, but it was great how to be a successful female in technology. That right? Very good, Carrie, how’d you work your way into being an email scientist? Yes. So I started answering. Our phone line for donorsearch vis is which is why I feel so strongly about your whole career’s friends of the earth. Yet so far on. And basically I discovered that I really wanted to have an impact on the issue that issues I cared about. But I didn’t really want to be dressing up in a suit and going in meeting with a lot of people on the hill. I really wanted to be, you know, out in the field, talking Teo really human beings. And email was just the right mix of those things where I could ask people for money to help further the mission. Or I could give people the tools to lobby their own. Elected officials are whatever the action mechanism was, it was all in my fingertips, and I never have to put on the suit, so that looks okay, doesn’t it? Okay, so we’re back to you practice. Best practice. Did you think of one since the last time? Yeah, I think so. Back to what Carrie was saying about multi-channel about talking to other people within the organization. I think that that is really, really important. Usually when I started a new organization, or like every three months, I’ll talk Teo, just different folks just to get some authenticity and authentic voice. I mean, people are craving authenticity and email, so that’s a really good way to do it. Another thing. That and another question that I got during the panel was direct mail and email. And how do those two things relate? And can they co exist? My personal opinion is yes, they absolutely can. You can use direct mail pieces and email vice versa. You, Khun, send email to to direct mail folks too for a multi touch, eh? So that’s another thing, too, that I think non-profits Khun really explore its really not one or the other. You can have both had someone on the panel yesterday who said that their donors loved getting. They thanked them for direct mail letters that say thank you for an email gift for non line gift. Yeah, yeah, it’s a really good way to keep your sustainers like, really happy. And that’s like your big donor based. Okay, how often would you thank sustainers as often as I can after every gift every month? Well, usually you could do in personal personalization so you can say, like, Hey, you’ve made, like, a $3 monthly donation and literally you just put Inem dash and say thank you. It’s it could be that simple, or it can be like so extreme that you write like a hand written thank you know and send it in the mail. So it just depends on what your capacity is. But just giving, you know, those donors a sense of like appreciation is super important you want. Do you want to touch them at every at every monthly donation, one way or the other? Yeah, well, I’m That’s my personal belief. I think people like they pretty much know that they’re doing a monthly donation and actually reminding people that they gave him a plea donation for us. Like I haven’t seen any dropoff whatsoever. I know a lot of people are like aholic. I’m nervous about reminding people that they have a monthly donation, but I think for us, it’s like part of a gang. Like the honesty authenticity on being up front with people in where they stand. I’ve heard it both ways. I’ve heard. Set it and forget it. Don’t remind them. But then you risk when the court expires or it gets compromised. They decide they have had enough, and I don’t really hear from them very often. But there’s two sides to that argument, right? Okay. What? Carrie, I’m gonna let you wrap it up. We got just like, 30 seconds or so left. Give us a motivation about small dollar donation campaigns. Yeah, I mean, I think for friends of the Earth, it’s really been a a game changer for us. You know, every dollar you raise online has the potential to be unrestricted. So it means that you can run the programs that you want to run as an organization without being required to do what a major donor wants you to do or what a foundation wants you to do. You could be much more flexible, and you’re empowering human beings in the real world to be a part of your cause and advanced the mission that you care about. And there’s just no better way to do that than building those relationships online. Where people, you know in the 21st century, that’s where they’re at. So we meet them where they’re also thank you. That was That was Cary Man. She’s deputy director of digital membership and advocacy at Friends of the Earth and also Sarah Kerrigan, email director. Attack Blue. Thank you Each very much. Thanks. Much pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 NTC all of our 19 1990 seon reviews are brought to you as from our partners at ActBlue free fund-raising tools that help non-profits Macon Impact. Thanks for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagner, CPS. They’re accountants, for God’s sake. Okay, you know you know what they do. Do you need one? Do you need help with your form? 9 90 is the time to change ordered firms. Perhaps they’ve got a deep rich practice for non-profits and they’re growing it. You could be a part of that. You know a partner. You know, one of the insiders Yet which tomb? He’s been on the show. Check him out. Give him, then give you a ring. Get started at wagner cpas dot com. Now time for Tony’s take two. My video is two ways to be a good American Abroad. I was in Paris for two weeks and while in Brussels, Belgium. Short hour and 1/2 train ride away. Ah, I witnessed some some bad behavior. Bad Americans abroad. There were two things that particular relating Teo language and currency and those air. But those are the two subjects. But how can you do them better than these ugly Americans that I witnessed in Brussels. That’s what the video is about. Now, I had said that earlier that my video was going to be a tour in L C C A launch control center from when I was in the Air Force. But I put this one up instead. The launch control center one is coming. I’m not cheating you out of the tour of the LCC, but right now check out two ways to be a good American abroad. You know where the video is? It’s at tony martignetti dot com. So now that you’ve got new donors, how do you keep them? Here is donor retention. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 1990 si. You know what that is? It’s the 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. We’re in Portland, Oregon, at the Convention Center and this interview, Like all our 19 ntcdinosaur views brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact, I guess now are Laura Cole and Cole. Hey, Big Laura is director of account Services at Sancti Communications. Paul is president of Sank a communications Welcome. Welcome, Laura. Welcome poem Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Pleasure. You’re seminar topic is finders keepers the art of donor of retention? I don’t know how many guests have been on non-profit radio telling us that the cost of retaining a donor is so much less than the cost of acquiring a new donor. More. Let’s start with you. What are what are non-profits Just not getting them. This is not just within the past six months. For years we’ve been talking about donorsearch tension problems. Retention rate is so low, I don’t know what the most current is, but it’s it’s it’s sad, Whatever it is, what are we not getting right? And you’re welcome to give the most recent stat if you I’m sure you know it. So I think it’s a great point and I think one of the reasons why we wanted to talk about it today and in our session. We really focused on it too. Is that this? This December was definitely a challenge for a lot of non-profits, and it was particularly a challenge for getting new donors in the door. And that means that retention becomes that much more important and to your point. Retention doesn’t happen. You really have to tow work and focus on your communications to make sure that you’re building that relationship because it’s donors are going to give. But you have to take that is the first step of the relationship and really work on cultivating them so that they’re going to become lifelong donors. Paul, Why we’ve been talking about this for so long. Why are non-profits not getting the message that Laura just redid? Rated for the 1,000,000 times? You know, I ended the session off with the audience and said to them, You’ve already done. You’ve really done your session this on the down side already on our way to end it all by saying, Don’t be impatient, Don’t dahna Retention takes time. It takes time to improve it. So we did a case study with the African Wildlife Foundation, and we’ve been working with them for like seven years, and we were able to get there Don’t retention right now. Currently in two thousand eight from 2,018 upto almost 70% prior. You’re donors to give again in the second year, and it took years of planning and communicating and it really is the foundation of what we discussed. And what we believe in is that you really need to build the foundation with technology, good technology from the start. And so this organisation, we went through a really important and arduous database and technology conversion for them almost three years ago, three years ago. I think he was closer to 55 years ago, and so we were able to actually put all the pieces that you need to make this a mohr automated process to really focus on things which allowed the organization and us and freed us up to be more creative with how he spoke to donors. The campaigns that we produced for the organization and really give them an engaging donor experience throughout the 12 month period that we benchmarked this morning. All right, so it’s a long term process you need to have. You need to have infrastructure in place before you can before you can hope to move the needle on potential. It is buy-in caps. Elated. This Yeah, I know. The idea is that one of the things we’ve mentioned at the end was you have to invest. Unfortunately, we’ll invest in the technology even before we even get into donorsearch tension versus new donorsearch attention. It is important because what happens is if you don’t have that infrastructure there. Misstep and interesting. It was the way originally were caught. We’re going to call the session howto lose a donor in 10 days kind of pop culture reference for a movie. But it really is true. Is that idea that in the first part of the relationship, if you have a misstep, you probably lose a donor for life if you, you know, code them differently if you personalize something and it’s the wrong information, if you don’t thank them in a timely manner. And there’s a lot of different things that go into that so really kind of making sure that infrastructure is up and running to make sure that you don’t have those early missteps so that you can create a lifelong donor-centric to get to some of the pitfalls you have in your your description talk about pitfalls that are causing dahna patrician. So why did you want Okay, well, naming the person incorrectly. Yeah, Personal personalization is one of our most powerful tools in marketing and fund-raising, but if you call Bob Barbara, you know, you kind of lose a donor for life for sure, making sure that you I already have in motion the idea that if someone comes on brand new, this is like a data problem that people do that you’re suppressing the people who are new versus old and actually figuring out who they are. So, for instance, I make a donation. A lot of signs, some systems is that you’ll go right into the next campaign stream. But I just made my first donation. So what we can certainly do with the technology for our clients is that will create an automated program that will actually capture that new donor-centric, possibly who hasn’t giving but maybe give their email address for the first time and put them on a separate track and making sure that at the same time they’re suppressed from any other campaigns. Generally, the can kapin would have some kind of fund-raising asked. So really kind of setting the stage of their relationship for the beginning and not forgetting that they just made a donation and really trying to the information that we provide in that Siri’s is meant to be engaging in the part where it actually educates them on the mission and deeper into the program versus you know, usually probably what we brought that original donor and is on some kind of urgency, you know, really quick and got emotional reaction. But at that point, then you have there you have their attention, and you have to use it wisely. Okay, and Laura suppress them For how long? So generally, what what will work with organizations to do is to build a really robust welcome Siri’s. And that usually is at least fortified emails that will go out over, say, 2 to 3 weeks. So making sure that they complete that cycle before they start to get the regular stream of communications. So they’re not kind of being dropped in in the middle of one campaign, or they’re not getting the welcome Siri’s and that campaign. But instead they’re really sort of sitting by themselves, getting this very targeted, very tailored Siri’s that’s going to introduce them to your mission to the organization, tell them what their their donation has done before you ask again. So it’s really making sure that those and and to go back to sort of the movie reference that we made its It is like a relationship, and if you make a mistake in the first date or the second date or the third date, you’re probably not going to turn into a long term relationship. But Teo ads that question about how long it does vary from organization to organization. What we discussed this morning would be the organization that we were case studying, which is the African Wildlife Foundation. They have a membership program. So the how long is a shorter period of time because of the membership program and a lower dollar average gift for them. Repetition in marketing fund-raising is key to their success. But some organizations we work with that might start off at a much higher average gift. That’s where you’d have to really kind of b’more conscientious on the frequency and how when that next asks, Come in. So that could be you know what with the organization with membership, you might be 2 to 3 week where you’re suppressing, but an organization that has a higher average gift donor-centric month or two before or really looking at they’re giving history, so it’s not a one size fits all. It really has to be customized to each organization and what their mission and what type of donors they do have. Oh, and and also targeted to the constituent. If you’re talking about a donor that’s giving a small gift, you’re you’re going to want to suppress him for a shorter period of time than someone that gave you $10,000. That person’s going to need a lot longer period of pure cultivation before you make that ask again. Okay, let’s let’s do some more pitfalls like these pitfalls to avoid attrition. Absolutely. Go ahead, I think. One of the big ones. And this is partly why digital retention tends to be lower than direct mail. Is not making sure that you’re updating donor email addresses, whether they tell you that they have a new email address. But even more proactively finding out what the what what? Maybe someone’s new email address is called in a way or email. Change of address process. Something like that where you’re you’re actively saying, let me make sure that I can keep emailing a donor because email addresses changed much more frequently than someone’s mailing address. People don’t generally move as much as they change their email address. Maybe they go to a new job. Maybe they switch from Yahoo Hotmail. So making sure that you can keep talking to them, because if you’re not going to talk to them, you can’t make that ask. You can’t cultivate and they’re not going to get there much less likely to give again if you kind of lose touch. I’m not even sure that non-profits know a lot of them know that there are services that will do it. The email change of address for you, Yeah way the Postal Service with, like, a a national change of address I have now on the way. I have, ah, have a little personal story, my dad’s name and my name or the same Anthony martignetti, but he uses A J. He’s Anthony Joseph. I have the same middle name, but I never used the J. There’s one indicator that we’re different. Also, his his current address is not my last address. I haven’t lived there since I was nine, eighteen 18 years old. I went to college. I moved. I moved from New York City to North Carolina. More than a dozen charities started emailing Anthony J. Martignetti to my North Carolina address Charities that my dad is a is an active donorsearch. For now, he’s a small level donor. Is he’s one of those guys who writes like 15 $2025 checks, and I mean literally he does dozens of these a month. He gives a lot at the end of the year, so they were. So they were aspiring to be proactive. But there were two flags that should have been raised that that I’m not the guy, that he’s not the guy who moved the middle initial and the last address. So that brings us to another pitfall. It’s one of the major pitfalls pitfalls. A lot of non-profits full into his data issues data. Bad data can really harm donorsearch tension. So in your case, these organizations are not actually there. There, there, there, there, looking up your information. It’s either it’s household or individual. And so you can. We’ve seen this happen for organizations where you’ll get a household match, and that’s what you’re what happened with name yes, but versus an individual, which is directly just you and that address. But it brings back the point, which I think we’ll go back to our topic on pit bulls data. It could be the right that for all non-profits not. And it’s the hardest part for an organization that really both invest the time and money and resource is. That’s usually people power to make sure that you have clean data for knowing when someone is active or made a gift recently, and then you ask them by actually ask him to renew when they just renewed a month ago. Or I mentioned the personalization piece or recognizing when someone is, ah, high dollar donor-centric. And that’s one of actually the things that you mentioned. Is it really important? Sustaining giving is one of the differential factors where online retention doesn’t actually start going up from offline retention if you’re really good at recruiting sustainers or monthly givers and then making an active effort. So part of the case study with you this morning was that we’ve been actively growing the sustainers file for this organization, and it right now they’re they’re about 25 plus percent that there digital giving is coming from sustainers e-giving, which each year helped their retention grow, and that’s why they’re close to 70% now on retention because of that. But when we treat sustainers, we always recognize that there are sustainers. So even though that you don’t want to stop communicating sustainers gonna wantto forget about the organization. But we segment and we recognize their contribution and we usually put them in a lot of the engagement campaigns and cultivation. The awesome part about sustainers is they’re so engaged with the organization what I always call the 13th gift. So that will be a monthly Don’t make 12. They’ll make that 13 because they’re so engaged. But you have to really treat them well and so generally will maybe get they’ll get a matching gift campaign, maybe year, and to say, Hey, we have this match going on. We know you’re a monthly supporter, but we just wanted to bring it to your attention. It’s all about the nuance messaging and really think about that. But it goes back to the data being clean and knowing who you’re speaking to, segmenting your audiences and really paying attention to that and bad data. Really, convict can really lead, Yeah, two mistakes like that. Now you know if if it wasn’t my dad I wouldn’t be. Wouldn’t wouldn’t have given them the second chance. I just tossed it or said, You know, take me off your list. Hence, how to lose a donor in 10 days Time for our last break Text to give. Get their five part email Many course to dispel the myths around mobile giving Donations do not have to go through the donors phone company. They don’t have to be small. There aren’t large startup costs. You don’t need to know a lot of technology. You can do this. You can do mobile giving. You get the five part email, many course and it’ll explain how to get started. Um, you get that by texting NPR to 444999 You’ve got butt loads. More time for donorsearch retention anymore. Pitfalls. I liked the men I like taking off these things, that organ ords maybe doing wrong. So so along the lines of what you brought up, I think one of the biggest pitfalls is not respecting when when donorsearch Hey, I don’t want to get mail or you have the wrong address. Please update it. Donors who bothered to reach out and tell you that are very loyal donors. If they’re proactively reaching out and saying, Please send, you know, to this new email or this new postal address or this is the wrong you know, middle initial or this is the wrong no last name. Anyone who reaches out with that cares a lot about the organization. And so it’s making sure that you’re respecting that and that there’s business rules and to Paul’s point, people in place to make those updates right, because the second time, the person when the first that’s right, second request. Then you’re done. This is your you’re hurting. So absolutely that dovetails into a point of really making sure the right hands talking to the left hand, where if you’re running a campaign that you have really good donorsearch vis reps who understand what’s going on with the fund-raising department and can actually feel those questions. So they got a matching gift request, for instance, knowing that when they answer the phone that they were talking about that a lot of time. Our donors donors will call for organization to say well, might give still be matched. I’m a little late, so having someone ready to know that. But at the same time, what we find the organizations have been most successful is when they have somebody on the phone who can really take a donor complaint and make them to a lifelong donors. And it’s just really preparing them and training them on DH, treating someone like a human being and understanding that even their $25 gift is just as important as the $1,000 gift when they when they take the energy to call the organization. And generally you can really kind of swing a donor to be really lifelong supporter as long as you have somebody on the lines and the phone. Many organizations forget about that, and you made a good point this morning, which I’ll let you make about even just the last week of the year. Well, it’s It’s remembering that some of the biggest giving days on the online side are not working days. It’s the end of the year. It’s Christmas, it’s New Year’s. It’s days when the office may be closed. But if no one’s answering the phones when you have donors trying to make a gift, you know if you get back to them in January. It’s too late, you know, a sort of mist that window. And so it’s thinking about customer service, especially on those key days when, even if you know, recognizing it’s a holiday. But it’s when people are giving and needing to be there for the donors. Do either of you know the There’s a paradox service like service repair paradox or something like that in customer service, where if you’ve made a mistake and corrected it as a as a company, you will. You will have a more loyal customer than if you hadn’t made the mistake in the first place. And that’s goes to what you were describing. Pull their end well and Laura, too, that that there’s someone there responsive that actually makes the change or correct the problem. They have to be empowered to correct the problem, and if they do, you’ll have a more loyal well, it feeds over in our in our circle. It does have a more loyal donor-centric to begin with, so we made a point this morning. Another don’t was when your when your service recovery, that’s what service recovery paradox. So we made a point talking about the fact that Okay, so you’re going to make mistakes sometimes. So just say, make sure your emails rendering correctly when someone views it makes sure when someone lands on a donation form, it’s working correctly. However, technology breaks down sometimes, regardless of how much you test how great you are at that. But what I talked to the audience about is as long as you’re both timely with your apology and also just things do happen. And, you know, one of the best examples would have been Steve Jobs. When the iPhone had the antenna issue, he pretty much changed the entire power paradigm for PR in the sense of how he handled that situation where they were. They were roasting Apple at that point, and he actually turned it around and it became the best selling high phone because the way he handled that, he took responsibility and they moved on. And I think the quote was, well, technology breaks down. Actually, all phones dropped calls, and it’s not just it’s not just the iPhone and that quickly the media shifted there, but the whole idea is being quick and nimble and being able to go back out So the non-profit has an issue with their donation form or something with their sight being quick and being able to be. You know, sometimes humor works in some ways and some organization, depending on your mission. But being direct on that and really kind of talking about it and getting out getting in front of it is so important. And again, then you know that that that experience level, we actually see that a lot of the times those correction emails do perform quite well, sometimes even better than the other emails in the Siri’s. When you go back and you’re just really human and honest about what happened and take responsibility exactly that za piece of what a piece of what you’re describing all right, and and to your point earlier about the small dollar donor to remember that for that donor, that’s that’s a big commitment they’ve made for you. It’s a it’s a small amount of money, but for them it’s a big commitment, and so treating them well regardless of the amount of money that they give. And that’s one thing that the digital space allows for is that high touch treatment allows for the personalization it allows for. The customization allows those donors to feel special regardless of how much they’ve given and in terms of numbers. Sometimes the small dollar donors that given year after year and say, Hey, I’ve moved, please update it. Those may be your best plan giving prospect so you can’t dismiss them even if they’re giving you a little amount, because for them, it’s a It’s a lot I do plan. Giving consulting now 1997 carrying on and the ultimate retention I’ve seen lots of seen lots of eyes algorithms, I guess, for you know, who makes a good plan giving prospect. I still think the best plan giving prospect is that person who’s given you 23 gifts in the past 25 years exactly on the most recent one was no more than, like, six months ago or something. Yeah, they are thinking about you every single every single year, and I don’t I really don’t care. Here’s $10 a year. In some cases, I think they’re testing you, but they’re probably testing you for 23 years. But but some of those initial small dollar gifts they may be testing you do I get a thank you is a timely yeah. Did they screw things up in the thank you, you know, etcetera. So I think there’s some of that. Some of the testing on the small dollar lord to your point about small dollar donations. But they are enormously good playing, giving prospects that kind of that kind of loyalty and longevity, even if even if small, small, double digit levels very good plan giving prospects here earlier point about because acquisition is so challenging. Some one plan gift from someone who made a gift for 20 years who can pay for an acquisition program for an entire organization meeting. You know, you you invest that money 20 years ago and then you’re banking on it later on where they’ve left this entire you know, there’s a part of their state to an organization, and so it’s important, actually tracked those folks right to find out what the origin of those folks who do come in because it’s generally as you just said, those low Doyle. The donor’s really do care about the organization. That’s why they stuck around for 23 years. It is important. Look, back-up e-giving history and try and ascertain from those patterns. Hoo hoo! Your other good prospects are. Yeah, and that’s one thing we spoke about at the session is, is the data side of it is is to really track retention and really leverage it. You have to have the data collection in place. You have to know who your donors are. You need ideas for them. So you contract. They’re giving year over year, but you also need to be able to identify where they came from in the first place. If you want to invest smart going forward, you have to know what your investments really yielded in the past. And so the cost of acquisition. What’s the source? The source, the source? And what did it cost exactly? And even if it was a long time ago, being able to know what that was is really valuable. That’s a great transition anymore, Waken say about technology. I mean, well, you both in it a lot. There’s no anymore more strategies around technology that he needs to be in place. So Paul touched on it, and I think it’s important is to recognize that your technology can can work for you or against you and recognizing where it it is working for you and maybe where it’s it’s presenting challenges and and maybe those air too much, and you’re really costing yourself on the retention side for not investing in technology. But it’s also recognizing that technology without the people to really leverage it isn’t going to get you very far that you need data people you need. You know, people who know how to use the technology and can really make it work for you. So I think it’s It’s technology, by itself is not powerful. It’s technology and people and subsided. And what you’re saying is you have to hire the expertise that you need. If it’s not a full time employee, you have to get a consultant freelancer. You can’t You can’t manage this and master it on your own on DH. That’s not your expertise anyway. You’re zan inefficient use of your own time or your organization’s time to try to master something that you don’t know you need to. You need to invest in the talent that you need because the organizations are good at their missions. You know, in many ways, right, it’s not really about marketing or technology or database management. I mean, it does. It does come to that. Sometimes you and I think also a point you made earlier that that I do think sometimes gets lost is that when when it comes to our attention, sometimes it’s it’s fancy technology and automation and behavioral driven content. And sometimes it’s the basics. It’s the acknowledgement. Did you send an acknowledgement? Did it talk about the impact that the gift had did it? You know, thank the donor an appropriate way. Was it sent out on time? So with all the bells and whistles that are out there in technology now, it’s important to not forget those fundamentals and to make sure that those air in place, regardless of whether you have a staff of 10 or one very well said you should be co presidents. Take note of that account services sounds sounds beneath her to mate. We’ve been working together for 10 years. It’s true. That’s good. Yeah, co President. Um, okay, let’s look metrics. You talk about metrics to measure churn and retention. Who wants to wants to kick off the metrics? We got like, four more minutes left together. So you want to start for so the biggest thing when it comes to metrics is, is having the data in place and knowing whether or not you even have the data to track it. And the key for retention is that you’re tracking donorsearch cohorts. So it’s not talking about the total number of gifts that’s talking about donors and specific groups of donor. So when you want to measure overall retention from one year to another, you need to know which donors gave in your one and which donors went onto given year, too. So so if you can actually identify that because you don’t have the ideas or you don’t have the data in biology infrastructure, just talking, you’re not going to get anywhere. And similarly, knowing someone who’s new versus who’s who’s renewed is quite important because going back to the point you made earlier about acquisition, the retention of a new donor right now hovers around 25%. And so really tension of a 1st 3rd 1st time, first time donors so well, so organized organization whose 75% of the people they broke time don’t Yeah, and so there is making sure you have the ability to track these things so that you actually then Khun, figure out you’re targeted strategies towards these groups, treating them separately in some ways and actually having creative and ideas and specific pieces that go to them so that you can retain those vote for people. We kind of haven’t touched upon it. But a lot of the strategies that we’ve been implementing with great success is trying tio convert a lot of those first time donors into sustainers, and that really has helped lift the program’s on the digital side and where digital retention for the overall programs have have been on the rise a little bit, and particularly with this organization that we case study today African Wildlife Foundation that was the sustainers program has been really one of the key to the success of really good online retention because we really quickly move folks from their first gift and have strategies to convert them to sustainers and then due to individual sustainers drives where it could be coupled with the match and really kind of back to really strong, evocative creative that goes back to for there in this mission is, you know, poaching of elephants and the crisis that’s going on there, but it works with other organizations to. And so the success of those programs and then having the data to make sure that you actually keep the retention of your sustainers is another really important factor because that there’s there’s low hanging fruit that that could be easily forgotten or missed by organizations on when credit cards expire and making sure that you really invest in that channel, you know, And it’s actually more channels that we’re discussing this morning. Not only sometimes email does not work to retain a sustainer, you actually need to use offline and send it direct mail piece or take it even further. And sometimes we’ll do telemarketing to see if we can get that boat that person back because their their lifetime value is greater than most other sources. Why do, uh, she would just have, like, 30 seconds? How come some How come sustainers stop sustaining? I think two reasons I think one is some sustainers don’t realize that they’ve became a sustainers so generally in the 1st 2 or three months on stage, it was a mistake, and that goes back to data making sure that when you when you confirm those sustainers that you actually tell them they’re sustainers. OK, there is like a threshold where they passed 13 and four, and then you got them. The other thing is credit cards. A little scripture expire expires. Or they or yeah, exactly. And they decide to have done it long enough because you kind of want sustainers toe almost go on autopilot and, you know, and then really, you still want to engage them, But you don’t need to constantly remind them that they’re making that gift. But you wanted still engage them on your mission. So those air to areas where I’d say that where you would lose sustainers. Okay, we’ve got to leave it there. That flu fantastic was awesome. All right? Yes, they’re both with. Thank you, Communications. Paul is the president, and Laura is soon to be co president, but currently director of account Services. This interview, like all the 1990 sea interviews brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits Macon impact. Thanks so much for being with non-profit radios. Coverage of 1990 si next week. Tech accessibility and culture of resilience. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, Data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital P by Wagner CPS Guiding YOU beyond the numbers Regular cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made Easy text. NPR to 444 999 are creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. The With Me Next week for non-profit radio. 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Documents. Data. Projects. Governance. Training. They’re all components of knowledge management and our panel from 19NTC explains how to manage properly. Both returning, they’re Dar Veverka from Urban Teachers and Janice Chan at Shift and Scaffold.





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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with a case of stati O p Jia if you kicked me in the butt with the idea that you missed today’s show Strategic knowledge management documents, data projects, governance, training They’re all components of knowledge management and our panel from nineteen ntcdinosaur planes. How to manage properly both returning there. Dar Viv arika from Urban teachers and Janice Chan at Shift in Scaffold and Ethics in your Prospect Research There’s a lot of personal and private info available about all of us and your donors. Your researchers job is to find it. Where are the boundaries? How do you protect it? Maria Simple takes on these and other potential landmines. She’s our prospect research contributor and the Prospect Finder. I’m Tony Steak to be the one we’re sponsored by Pursuant Full service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations made easy text NPR to four four four nine nine nine Here is strategic knowledge management from the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of nineteen ninety si. You know what that is? It’s the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. You know that we’re in Oregon, Portland, Oregon at the convention center. You know that all of our nineteen ninety si interviews are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me now are Darby Burka and Janice Chan. Dar is director of information technology and at urban teachers seated next to me and Janice Chan is consultant at Shift in Scaffold. Welcome back to the show. Both of you think you can be back. Thank you very much. Let’s so we’re talking about strategic knowledge management Your your workshop topic Strategic knowledge Management Don’t stop halfway. Janice. What? What? Halfway. What? What? What’s the problem here? Why do we need this session? Uh, my dar actually chose the name of the sessions and maybe you want to talk about that. Okay, Well, either won or you go for a lot of places. People think of knowledge management as solely just We put some documents and SharePoint. We organize the things on our file server and that’s it. They stop there. But that’s really just a foundational piece for knowledge management, and it’s really just a small part of it. So our session was going over the other things you need to consider instead of just we filed our documents. Okay, Janice, how would you know? Let’s make sure everybody has a common understanding of terms. What we need, what we mean when we say knowledge management. So this is, you know, when you’re in an organization, everybody needs some type of information. People have a lot of experience and expertise, but it’s it’s often trapped in people’s heads or we have the file somewhere, but nobody could find them. So I just end up asking darl the things. And so how do you make it so that the right and the people confined the right information at the right time when they need it on DH in the way that they needed? So they’re not spending an hour digging through unorganized sheer drive when we could have just organized and they’re like, Oh, I know howto Advil unt ears to our serum because it’s in the volunteermatch judgment folder and that, you know, like it’s in a place that makes sense. Teo Awesome to our organization. Okay, okay. I said, uh, the So the halfway point is the documents in a share point. And that’s where a lot of people are stopping but trouble? Yeah, a lot of folks just think that’s all you do, and it’s You need to go beyond that and get buy-in from the rest of your organization and think about the other ways that knowledge flow. A lot of knowledge flows through organizations, and it’s not just sitting in your SharePoint drive and you need to deal with How do you manage all that? A lot of places waste a lot of time. What are what are the other elements of knowledge? Management? Um, knowledge management comes into play with data governance. Were all data driven organizations these days. So you’ve got everything sitting in your databases. Why isn’t why are people dealing with processes around that? For knowledge management, you’ve got project management. You do you know these these built out tech projects that cost you thousands of dollars and nobody does the documentation or things about thinks about building things in. Like, for instance, whether the examples we gave it our session. If you’re redesigning a website you’ve already thought about who’s gonna be maintaining that. Whose job is that? After the fact? What do you need the vendor to do? What type of documentation. But people don’t build that into the project. They think about it, but he never actually get it into the formal project. So that’s all part of knowledge management. Okay, eyes, they’re more generous. And also things like training, right. Like when we have new staff, we think we need to train them. We need to onboard them, we think actively about that stuff. And then we don’t always think of it after That person is no longer the new employees. And so we don’t keep that going. And we lose a lot that way because things change right? We don’t necessary. Maybe updated as a star. Kind of referred, right? Like we know we made the how to guide. Great. We never have to update it. But that process of balls because we realized hey, this doesn’t work out as well as we thought. So now we’ve changed it, right? We’re applying that learning that can get loss of It’s not documented when that person who made that improvement walks out the door. You know they find your job or whatever or, you know, even just things like, you know, when people leave right, we don’t always capture that institutional knowledge. My people, when people leave and we’re just like all right, give us your email account password on like you know it. So making sure that that stays within the organization also that it just feeds back into the world, you know, sort of like when you manage a project and you kind of do be brief sometimes after a project. Hopefully you debrief. Does that go anywhere? Because if you have that meeting, then it’s only in the minds of people who were at that meeting. And that doesn’t That’s a lot of knowledge that maybe it’s useful to other people. Normalization will be used for moving forward, and it can easily get lost. We’Ll capture it. I presume you spent a lot of time in the session or have you had your session? OK, you’re dahna downside. Okay, Talking about resource is tools tools that we can use for for knowledge management going beyond documents. So let’s spend a good amount of time doing that. Janice, you want to start with, um, with a tool? Sure. So I think one of the things that way talked a little bit about there. Two types of knowledge is the explicit were just like here you do Step one. And here you do Step two, and usually the task knowledge is sort of like, you know, when you’re baking and you’re like what this done look like? Great. And it’s hard to figure that out sometimes. Like, you know, data governance. You’re like, How do I define those? Like, What does this mean? Why does this number look like not what I was expecting? And I think a lot of times we don’t always have the language. We don’t always have that shared language. Tio have that discussion. So when you map out a process right, if you do that diagram of like here’s, here’s what happens. Here’s which systems are connected to each other, and somebody’s like I never realized that right, Like that’s not the model that I have in my head of how these things fit together, and I had these other pieces that are not on the diagram that you just wrote. The act of like making those diagrams is is you know, Wei Tau have that conversation, get that knowledge out of people’s heads and get a documented right than other people can see. That s so There are a lot of tools for that. Like really simple. I’m sorry. Taxonomy. Taxonomy is another. Another helpful thing I think about autonomy is Oh, no Texas. Tow the grant like different things. Teo also think about it. Buy-in named Tulip zoho. I really like like paddle. It is really, like, cheap. Easy. It’s not made for that necessarily. But you can use it. Pagnoni. It’s really it’s men for teacher. A lot of teachers use it, I think. But it’s free. It’s You don’t have to, like, learn how to use it. There’s not like a steep learning curve, which is helpful for diagrams. You’re like, you know, you can just do pencil on paper, but you know, good, more advanced toward, You know you’re losing charts and all of that or more advanced. But they take longer to learn how to use, so that vanish now. So I’ve got a I’ve got a question. It may be embarrassingly basic, but we ask anyway. All right, So now if we have created this, uh, sort of this organizational chart or this this flow of this chart that in paddle it how do we How do we now preserve that so that people confined It is, It is. It is a simple is the shared drive on a network. I think it depends on what it is and what it’s for, right? Like if it’s hears we’re documenting our process for maybe managing volunteers. Or maybe this is how you make updates on your way you might share. You might save it wherever you might be in your share. Dr. It’s wherever you have your documentation, which honestly, should be wherever people go, because if people don’t go to it, then you have to do that whole, like trying to get people to go to. No place is just more on top of more like it’s just not gonna happen when they already are exactly exactly wherever they are. Just just make it work for there. Okay, okay. Time for a break. Pursuant. the art of first Impressions. How to combine strategy analytics and creative to capture new capture, captivate its, actually captivate new donors and keep them coming back. It’s their e book. It’s on donor acquisition and how to make a smashing first impression. You will find it on the listener landing page at tony dot m. A slash pursuing capital p for please, of course. Now let’s go back to strategic knowledge management. Another tool door you can share with you a couple things I can think about. We demonstrated some visual tools, just having simple visual guides to guide people on what systems do what we demonstrated several of those yesterday, and we also know what kind of systems are we talking about? A different knowledge systems. Maybe you’ve got databases. Maybe you’ve got documents, shares, maybe a process. Documents for the finance system live somewhere else. How our users supposed to know what system Teo use if they don’t even know what systems that you have so doing visual guides for where do I find this? Or where do I put that simple stuff that people can literally stick on? The fridge is in their offices, so people see that constantly as a reminder. We demonstrated some landing pages in Portales. A lot of people think of of that is just a way to get into the document management system. But you could do so much more with a portal you can have links to. Resource is links two different systems guides on where you should put stuff. Updates from the internal newsletter. To remind people of recent resource is way did a whole system of links. If folks check the collaborative notes for our session, we put about a page and a half of links for folks to different tools. And then he also made a Google drive of downloadable resource is for folks to express. Okay, well, we need to identify the first. Where’s the where’s the sheet of patient half of links that’s going to be in the collaborative notes for our session. With that, it’s it’s on this session. If you go to the session page on the NDC agenda, there will be a link to our social. Okay, so you start in ten dot org’s, then you go into the conference, extend into the agenda. Great. So on on Wednesday morning, we have is the strategic Knowledge management. If you click on that the session description, all of the links Aaron there Wave also tested it on both of our Twitter accounts. And then we can also post at the forums and handup Florence under the Where do we want? Put that one in the main discussion or debate? Remain discussion with the mid discussion for him with us. The links because we did a lot of resource, is this is a lot for folks to absorb. Let’s take time. What is your what? Your Twitter ID? Oh, sure example. At Darva arika d a r E v e r k Darby murcott Janice What’s yours? It’s a curiosity bilich at curiosity. Bone or bones? Singular singular curiosity. Bone going challenge metoo way. Curiosity is much easier to spell them. Geever. That’s curiosity Bone. OK, OK, good. All right, So now where else is it? Besides the Twitter Twitter accounts, you said it’s in a forum. Thie tenn dot org’s community forums will go ahead, and we’ll post that on the discussion. And then I think the decision makers would be a good one for that as well. And folks confined that okay, community forums within within ten dahna. Or there’s an decision makers as well as a discussed one, and we’LL go ahead and put that link up for folks because we did a lot of research, and a lot of resource is because we know it’s it’s hard to keep track. We’re gonna have to talk about some of these because we’re doing this for about ten minutes and I have a half hour segment to fill. So it’s okay. You don’t hook with Don’t look with go to the community forum, weigh a lot more. Okay. Okay, Janice, go ahead. Your turn, please. S o. I think that Okay, way talked about sort of the diagram diagrams. They’re, like, my favorite way. Talked about training, right? So I think also in terms of thinking, we talked a little bit about, like, the explicit versus task knowledge. And so sometimes it’s sort of like you’re like, where do I start? Right, So, like, I think that, like, just starting with getting things out of people’s heads, and you’ii think you come up together with some strategies like the, you know, shadowing people and sort of like doing the retrospective after an offense or things like that about shadowing something in real life. What’s that about shuttering people? So, you know, sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience. It’s like, maybe haven’t somebody knew who’s coming on board and they ask all these questions. You’re like, I never would have thought to explain them if you had an *** that question. So sometimes, you know, in terms of getting that knowledge out of someone’s head, we don’t always realize that we have it because we’re like, Oh, yeah, like I just do it. And I’ve been doing this for a long time, and I don’t realize that that, you know, personal system that I’ve come up with for how to get this done really efficiently, that that’s actually knowledge that is useful and that I can share with someone else, like I could teach somebody else I do. This, it is, may be hard to think about how to do that, and sometimes the best, like the easiest way is to have someone who doesn’t have that experience watch you do, you know, like maybe how do I, you know, host a good podcast? How do I do an interview, right? And so you watch somebody else do it, and then you come up with these. You either like notice. Oh, they’re doing it. This and this order, they’re doing it in this way. Or it’s an opportunity to ask that question of, you know, like, why did you choose to do it that way? Right? And I wouldn’t have thought to explain the decision for me, Like, you know, I’ve done this a million times advantage, just, you know, So I think that’s a good, easy way to pull it out. Anybody could do it. Another simple related to that. Is it sort of just telling someone like, Oh, yeah, you just go enter this over there. You could use simple tools that we all have on our laptops I movie or another, you know, quickie tool, off of Windows, laptop and just scream cast really quick what you’re actually doing and capture that in a thirty second video. You know, you could post that internally. A lot of us use chat programs at work, you know, slack or G chat or whatever. You could post that straight in there on a team channel and say by the way. This is how you do the thing. And then if people have questions about, why are you doing it? That way you can have more of a live back and forth and just a static. You know, just go do that thing. But I think even to write, like not just the not just sharing it in that moment when somebody has that question, but making sure that it’s it’s stored somewhere that people confined it later because they’re like you had that question. Probably five other people will have that question. So let me just save save the time now and just put in a place where you could find all of the screen cast on DH. Yeah, they’re a lot of simple, like snag. It is. Another one is just really. It’s really simple to use on. It’s not that expensive, so a screen Flo would be another one that’s a little bit more pricey. It’s maybe ninety nine, but it’s it’s another good moflow captures maggot. What you’re doing live on your computer to demonstrate that for folks, Maybe you’ve got your Tio. You know, a lot of folks are purely remote offices, so you might not have that ability to sit one on one, but you you could capture what you’re doing for a training video like Janice mentioned. If one person has that question, you know, ten other people have got that questions of capturing that knowledge of them, making sure you get that knowledge out as well, Not just capturing at once, but making sure people know where that resource is good. And sometimes that’s faster, right? Like trying to get somebody to like, can you? Right, the out, all the stops and documentation. They just look at you with that leg. Look like I don’t want to need you to spend time like if you were to ask him to show you that I’m like, Oh, yeah, like you did so did it up right? And and so that’s almost a wayto document more quickly. So especially people who don’t like to write things out or like they’re really stress out about it, but are willing to answer that question in that moment. If you can capture that then and make it easy for them, I think sometimes that it’s pompel for that, Uh, I don’t have anything else to say except what other? Whatever tools we got when I was trying, I was trying to think of some different types of data needs, but I can’t I can’t think of any that that I was going to ask you about specifically. So you may as well just keep going. We can talk about women defremery. Sure, a couple of the other items we talked about that are sort of the basis for when we talk about knowledge management. People look at that and they go, How did I do that? What are some practical ways to do that? So we talked about having a knowledge management framework, and frameworks can be really intimidating for folks. They see that they look online and they say all these diagrams and they go. I don’t know what that is, but it’s really just a lens for thinking about the structure. Framework is just a structure. It’s a scaffold. Eso It’s how you build your knowledge management and a focus of what’s important for your organization. Is it that is Janice mentioned? Capturing tacit knowledge is a huge problem. Your organization nobody writes anything down. They leave and then you don’t know what they did so maybe you want to build your knowledge management process, focusing on capturing tacit knowledge. Maybe it is that you guys love doing documentation, but nobody ever updates the documentation. So maybe you need to build your framework on a continuous capturing of that knowledge and continues updating instead. So we talked about different ways to to think about how knowledge works at your organization and how you should build your structures around that. And then another simple tool that we talked about is a taxonomy, which most people already have at their organizations. But they don’t think about it, and it’s not really written down. And that’s the way you refer to commonalities. So maybe your know it. Urban teachers. We’ve got three remote offices, and we use acronyms in particular terms to refer to them. We’ve got terms for referring to our program and for different stages of our participants. That’s a taxonomy. That’s something we can use across all of our systems as a common language, and it usually starts in the in the document management system, and that’s often where people see it. They build that out across multiple systems that can be used in your CR M. It could be used in your HR system. It could be used in your documentation on when you start having a common taxonomy or lexicon like that, it makes it easier to capture knowledge management cause People start using the same things to refer to processes, and it helps bring teams together and really provides a cohesion around your knowledge in your organization. Just a common understanding. Yeah, and people are often they already have one. They just don’t think about it, his attacks on me, but in general, they’ve already got one. The other thing, too, is that you can capture all of this documentation, right? But if nobody knows what it’s called like if you call it volunteermatch judgment and I call it, I don’t know constitutent management or whatever, right, I that’s no good, because then I’m not finding I’m not looking under there because I don’t think that that’s relevant to what I’m looking for. So I think that that common language is also what makes it you know, that your consistent about it you can other people confined it. They know, like OK, when someone says like this is you know, our hears their marketing materials, right? I know that that our logo is considered our marketing materials, right? And some other places it might be under something else entirely. Might be, like under and join our brand your brands, right? So it doesn’t matter what that is, as long as there’s that shared understanding the organization. This is what it means so that I can go into the document German system or, you know, if I ask, ask somebody. Hey, I’m looking for acts, right? Like we have a shared. Understand what that means and what they look for it. How do you create the shared understanding and taxonomy if one doesn’t exist? You were saying, You know, it probably exists and you don’t know it, but suppose it doesn’t suppose you know, just lots of examples of people referring to the same thing by different names. That’s where you need treyz glossary. What do you do it? It’s where you need to do a little bit of legwork. Someone on your team. It’s usually on the team, but not necessarily needs to do some knowledge. Management work needs to work with those teams, and, you know, maybe you’ve got eight sites but they and they’re all talking about his Janice mentioned things under different labels, but they’re all really doing operations, functions or volunteermatch judgment. So you work with those individual departments are sites and you find out what their commonalities are because a lot of knowledge management is about finding commonalities between things a lot of groundwork. Yeah, And you do you have to, As Janice said very aptly yesterday, you’ve gotta invest some time to save some time. You know, you can’t get saved time for free. You need to invest some some leg work up front. So if you work with those different departments to figure out what their commonalities r and you work with them to build a lexicon, you’re going to find that people aren’t is really determined to refer to something as a particular thing as they once thought. When you start showing them the commonalities on DH when I’ve done taxonomy, is that organizations? In all three cases, I’ve had to do it. People end up agreeing on the taxonomy because they you know when when you get him talking, they’re really just talking about the same things. And they’re really not that invested in referring to it as a particular thing. They’re okay with going with operations instead of, you know, office, office management or something like that. You know, they released a little bit, and they realize special and you promoted as like, you know, we’re trying to make it easier to work together. They tend to release a little bit and go. Yeah, okay. We’re cool with operations, OK? I’m surprised to hear that, actually, people would stick to their This is operations. Well, that’s what culture. So that way, that way. So So, Yeah, we talked a bit about organization because I think any time you talk about language, any time you talk about the way that we do things here, right, that is organizational culture. And you know you don’t have unorganised age culture that supports knowledge management that supports learning, right? Sharing of information. You know, sometimes people will get very Don’t touch my stuff. Stay in your lane. You know, this is my job. That’s your job. Whereas I think if you are learning organization, if you want to build that college culture of you know, we share our knowledge here and we all learn from each other. You know that obviously you don’t want those silos. That doesn’t work out very well. That’s kind of the essence of what you’re trying to do. But I think like the one of things that we talked about in terms of road blocks, where you’re trying to roll some stuff out and maybe people are like insecure, they viewed their knowledge is job security. And it’s not that Maybe that doesn’t come from a place where they used to work somewhere where you know that was an issue and that that certainly can be at an issue and in some organizations, But a lot of times it’s just that really, that individual like, you know, I want to make sure that I keep my job or I want to be seen as valuable. And you can use that to write because so it can be not were trying to steal your knowledge and take take your job away from here, take things away from you, but also you know, Hey, your knowledge is valuable and sometimes people don’t see that and helping them see that you’re acknowledges really valuable to the organization and look how much stronger the team could be if we all had could use that knowledge, and we could help you even more. And, you know, whatever you’re you’re role is all right. Gentle persuasion, all but all for the good of the mission. Absolutely. Way all could do a better job if we could come together with this agreement around this common language. Yeah. Yeah. And also acknowledging that you might be in an organization where you know there is a toxic or culture, and they’re no amount of knowledge. Management is going to fix that. So they’re just, you know, knowledge management cannot fix broken business process buzzes and broken culture. So there is an acknowledgement of that. You you’ve got larger problems if that’s going on in your organization, and we can fix that for you. We’ve had discussions about on the show previous ntcdinosaur about blaming technology when leadership or processes or culture are the problem, right? And I’m looking for a technology solution to a bad CEO, right? No amount of pretty software is going to fix something like that. No amount of nice, you know? Well streamlined document man, aren’t you? Knowledge management is going to fix that. Wait a couple more minutes together. Uh, what else did you talk about? That maybe some questions about some of the Okay, Well, a lot of the questions were related about related to culture and trying to get people on board with things when people were resistant. Because it’s hard to make it hard to make culture change. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it’s sort of like it needs become a part of the way you do that here. And so it needs to also be part of, you know, one way. Besides, getting people’s buy-in is also making a part of job expectations, making it part of your performance performance evaluation on DH. You know, just making it like every time we haven’t have a project meeting, right reflection is part of that. Every time we have a staff meeting, there’s there’s some aspect of knowledge mansion or we talk about. You know, every quarter we talk about what do we need to update? Maybe in document management? Maybe. What do we need? So like, nobody uses this folder. Nobody looks like this like it’s maybe we need to just archive it. We don’t need it anymore or things like that and building that in and acknowledging that you can’t do this solo, you need your stakeholders and identifying who those are early on and that you’re going to need some executive stake holders. Get them in. Earlier on, we talked about different techniques with you know, that straight project management type stuff. But in terms of knowledge management, get him onboard early. You know you’re going to need them to help you push this through on DH. Really? Make sure you take care of your stakeholders and you deal with the people that are not liking your process. Figure out why they don’t like your process and try and work with that. You know it might not make them your favorite stakeholder, but if you understand where they’re coming from, like Janis was just talking about, like understanding why they’re a road block that could be really key to getting past them and really making them invested in your project and turning them around to liking your project. Having good office relationships helps also yeah, long before we’re talking about knowledge management. Just if you’re decent and it isn’t to your peers and colleagues and, uh, you get to know them outside the office, you know? And you’ve got his foundation of a relationship than when you’re calling on them for some. Some compromise. I think you’re more apt to get it. Yeah. They didn’t trust that. This is going to be good for the organization. This is We’re working towards the same goal if you don’t have that trust, and you need to start there like you need to start establishing Janet. You also mentioned the archive folder. I do plan e-giving consulting on. So I’m brought in sometimes to revive a program that’s stalled. And maybe there was a plan e-giving consultant or director. You know, four years ago. And then they eliminated the position, and it just kind of faded away, So I’m so I’m invited. Tio, update the files. Update the files. I can’t tell you that the first full day I makes archive, I’m opening this. I don’t know what everything is from two thousand six. We’LL move archive. You know, it has no relevance reducing that I think producing that clutter are not overwhelming to people. What are things you that actually relevant to to our organisation and our operations now, like maybe we need to keep that. You know, we don’t care. We’re not sure if we need to keep out, and we’re keeping it just in case that sort of get it, clear it out of the way, right? Because, like, it’s not the stuff you’re using all the time. The stuff that you are using frequently That should be, you know, really central and real quick. Good technique. With that, people get really nervous when they say you’re going to delete those archives and they hide a copy of them. So you just do a process where you keep them. But you put them in a place where it’s not clogging up their search terms and assure them they really, really need that. You can still get that back for you, and that really helps them move it out of what? What’s searchable their day today life. But if they know that it’s still there somewhere, they often are much better with being able to archive because they’re not worried about you pushing the w good. Okay, Janice, I’m gonna give you a chance to wrap up. Oh, like she’s pulling together. So I think some of the biggest things we talked about were really like, Get things out of people’s heads, Get the knowledge out of people’s heads, make it organized so that people can find it in a way that it’s It’s not overwhelming to people what makes sense to them, right? And also not, you know, being aware of people’s what people are scared of or what people. But those hang ups or obstacles might be to make sure that we can address them and get them on board. And it sounds like a lot of rigging it is, but the passing that time out front will really help you save time down the road. All right, that was Janice Chan. She’s consultant Shift and scaffold on DH. Also Darby arika, director of information technology at Urban Teachers. You are with non-profit radios coverage of twenty nineteen, the non-profit Technology Conference. All of our nineteen ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks so much for being with us. I need to take a break. Wagner, CPS. They’re free. Webinar came and went earlier this month. Tips and tricks for your nine ninety you missed it. You suck. No, but you can get it back. You watch the archive? Yes. Lamenting wayward listener that’s you gets the archive. You learn how to use your nine ninety as a marketing tool. You goto Wagner cps dot com Click seminars go to the month of April. I know it’s a little convoluted, but they don’t have a landing page there. Wagner cps dot com Click seminars Go to April and you’LL find tips and tricks for your nine ninety. Now time for Tony’s take to be the one that is my video this week. Inspired by in an Air Force reunion that I put together. It’s not really fair for me to say I hosted it because it was on the Air Force base, where we all worked Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri in the mid to late eighties, and about thirty five of us came together and then you add spouses was like fifty people, a total, but we all had this shared experience of doing an unusual job. We were launch officers for Minuteman nuclear missiles at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri in the Reagan years, and so we came together and It was just wonderful seeing everybody reconnecting you. No way have had we’ve had to reunion since then, So some of us have gotten together at other times. But some of us we have some haven’t been seen since, like nineteen eighty eight eighty nine. But there’s a re connection immediate, and that was the inspiration from my video. Be the one and what? What I mean by that? You’re just gonna have to watch. The video is at tony martignetti dot com, and that is Tony. Take do now. It’s Miller time. No, it’s not Miller. It’s Maria time. Real simple. Maybe Maria drinks Miller. I don’t know. Probably not. She has better taste. She has better taste in that. She’s much, much more refined. She’s, Ah, she’s the prospect. Find her. She’s our our trainer all. She’s a Strainer and speaker on Prospect Research. He’s our research contributor. Her latest book is Magnify Your Business Tips, tools and Strategies for Growing Your Business or Your non-profit. She’s our Doi End of Dirt, cheap and free. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at Maria Simple Maria. Simple. Welcome back after many, many months. Yes, thank you for having me back. It’s great to be here. Absolutely. You’ve been absent since Hurricane Florence, which you and I all know know verywell. Now we track hurricanes because we live in North Carolina very close to each other on that was last September, like September twelfth or so. Yes. You’re supposed to have been on. And you had to. You had to cancel because the hurricane was imminent. Yes, I was evacuating your evacuating, right. We had an evacuation order in my town, too. On. That’s last September. Now, are you Are you done with? You had some damage. You had more damaged than I did. Are you done re rebuilding? No, they haven’t even started. Yeah, that’s the problem that people don’t get. It’s hard is held to get contractors. And this is back from September. We’re talking about September. Well, yeah, well, we’ve got this contractors on site, but there have been a lot of insurance related issues, so that’s a whole other thing. Yeah, well, there’s that too, but but just the idea of getting contractors, people don’t realize that. Of course, I never did When I lived here in the city that it’s it’s It’s not uncommon for it to be years later. I mean, I guess we experienced it somewhat with Katrina. You saw, you know, the one year anniversary, the two year anniversary. But everybody, you know, Katrina struck me as a riel aberration. Although now as the climate changes, it’s it’s less so. But at the time, it seemed like, you know, it couldn’t be that devastating. But But even just Hurricane Florence from last September in the Carolinas, it is devastating. And people are still rebuilding and have not like like you. Yeah. Yeah. Still still waiting on a lot of a lot of work to get done. But you know what? I’m grateful and blessed to still have a roof over my head and we can live in our space so that that’s all good. Yeah, yesterday. I mean, when I say rebuilding, you weren’t destroyed. But you had you had damage damage in your in your apartment. What do you It’s a townhouse. Where do you have their townhouse? Condo. Thank you. Answer. Okay. That word eluded me. That’s a That’s an advance word from a condo. Right on your in your condo. Alright. So welcome back. It’s been many many months. I’m glad you’re back. Thank God you’re back. Um, so we’re talking about ethics? Um, what’s I mean? There is a lot of there’s a ton of private information and personal info, and you know, they have to be boundaries around what we collect and how we save what we do collect. That’s that’s issues here. Yes. So, you know, that’s definitely a lot of the issues here. You know, it’s it’s interesting because sometimes people will call me and they will say, You know, Maria, I need you to work up profiles, whatever these five or ten people we need, Thio know everything they’re interested in. You need to know their network on DH a sentence. They actually, as soon as they say that word network. I know that there’s a certain level of educating that I’m going to have to do even if I begin to start to work with this particular client. And and the reason for that is because what we as prospect researchers have access to, So whether you’re working for a small to midsize non-profit or you’re a college or university or ah ha, that all you have on ly to information that’s in the public domain. We do not have access to private information such as credit reports, right? So it’s important to make that distinction. Because when we’re looking at publicly available sources, we can never come up with a net worth. I don’t tell someone. Yeah, we’re going to get into detail on the Net worth conversation. I know you. Yeah, You specifically have wrote something on it. We’Ll get to that. Um but so let’s let’s let’s pursue what you just said about public versus private sources. I mean, I would think that when your clients hire you to do prospect research or when we task our prospect researchers if their in house, uh, we want all sources, whatever you can get it. Where did you get your hands on? No, right, that’s not so right. That’s that’s an uninformed doesn’t mean she can’t get your hands on. It might not be something that your organization would consider ethical. So an example of this might be, um, divorce records, right? So sometimes those be publicly access. However, think about this. If if you have to stop and think to yourself, how would how would this donor for a perspective donor-centric er ds. And if the answer to that is G, they might sever the relationship with our organization altogether. Then it’s simply not worth looking at those divorce records or even hey, even, maybe not. Maybe not be so extreme, but they would be upset that we were evaluating that. But But But But it has value. Okay, so let’s have a conversation. So I’m gonna push back. It has value to the organization. Um, if I’m trying to find out how much a person’s settlement is in a in a divorce, you know that that goes to what I think their capability is for giving to my organization. How much they gained or lost in a divorce is goingto figure into that calculus, all right, but just let’s say they’ve gained a million dollars from that divorce settlement. Are you entitled necessarily to that million dollars? It’s just like anybody making their money in any other way. Just because they have it doesn’t mean that they would want to gift any part of that settlement here working well, you, But you could say that about you could say that about anything. You could say that about their salary. Just because they make one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year doesn’t mean I’m entitled to any of it or one and a half million dollars a year. You could say that about anything, right? But that’s why I think you really want to rely more heavily on good old development, work and cultivation and developing a relationship and under standing what those people have an interest in funding on DH whether it’ll the lines properly rather than knowing the final settlement amount of what their divorces. Okay, But it’s still I mean, I I agree that it’s unseemly, but I’m I’m challenging it anyway because, uh, you’re stuck with me as the host. I mean, that’s the best. You’re the best reason I’ve come up with. So you’re stuck with it. You can either hang up or continue. It’s your choice on I’LL be fine without you. So don’t worry. You know, if you want to end up going so I mean, I’ll entertain myself. If nobody else, I just amuse myself. Um, no. Okay, so now but it’s still it goes to their potential. I mean, you’re you look at other sources of potential, right? Like like you public public public stock holdings, right? If the person happens to be an insider, you and I have talked about this, so this is not jargon jail material. You know, I’ve talked about this. If they’re an Insider Inc. Then their public, their their their stock holdings are public. That goes to their capacity to give. So why write? You have to find another reason why divorce settlement either gain or loss is not is not valuable info because because so far so far it’s analogous to a matter of public of insider stock. So when those when those insider stockholders file with the federal with the SEC right, the Securities and Exchange Commission, they know that this becomes part of a public filing that is completely searchable online, etcetera, etcetera. Operation will have it on their website. No eso again. It’s just what is the perception that they’re goingto have of you looking at the different types of records. So I think that again, and it’s just if your organization ends up having a policy that it’s perfectly fine to do that, then that’s fine. But I think that you do need to make a decision about you know if if are there certain types of records that you will consider off limits for your organization and just put a policy in place, whatever. Whatever way you decide to go, in the matter of, say, divorce records, for example, what’s another word not going against your policy? Do you think of another category of data? That’s Ah, a gray area. Um, you’re a professional, and you’re professional researcher. Yeah, well, you’ve been asked three years for other stuff that you felt uncomfortable with. Well, they’re what they’re I can remember one time in particular when I was researching an individual. Ah, that I decided not to put something in writing because I knew that the perspective donor-centric lorcan ization And this is this is across the board. You need to be aware of this, uh, altum non-profits do that. They could walk into your organization and say, Show me what you’ve amassed on the show Me any. Tell me my donor records. Show me my files. Right. Uh, so you need to be able to turn that over and know that they’ve been written in a very subjective and objective way. I’m sorry and not put anything subjective into it. No subjective statement. So, for example, there was something that I passed along to a development officer verbally, as opposed to putting it in writing, because I felt that it was going to potentially jeopardize our relationship that they were developing with that individual. However, it was very important that the development office, they’re new, that this person had insider trading and had done some paid a lot of fines for it in their background because they were considering this person as treasurer for the organisation Esso. I felt that it was my duty to toe let this officer know that this was in this person’s background because they just didn’t know that, right? Very Jermaine. Yeah, I think you might have used that as an example some other time for something else we talked about. That sounds familiar. Yeah, okay, but it’s a good one. It’s a poignant story. Okay, okay. All right, so So I. So I guess you’re saying divorce records. That’s the main. That’s the main thing that you find unseemly. And I do kind of like your standard do of what would if someone came in and read everything that we have on them. What would they say? How would they feel on that? That’s going to go to not only what you include, but how you describe it to how you describe your conversations with them. You know, you and I both agree that the best some of the best research, not all some of the best research comes from face to face meetings. How do you describe those meetings in your CR M after you’re back from the lunch or the dinner on DH? So thinking how the person would evaluate that feel about it could shade how you describe it? Okay, I gotto now. I just did a lot of talking. I gotta take a break. Hold on, Maria Simple. Stand by our last Break last break text to give you diversify your revenue by adding mobile e-giving. It is a misconception that this is only for disasters. That’s not true. You can build relationships by text. You do what you do it all the time with your family and friends. You can build relationships with donors as well. It’s very possible to do through texting. You learnt how, with the five part email, many course, um, to get into the many course you text NPR two four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Now we gotta do the live listener, love. Ah, and it’s Ah, live listeners are in starting abroad. Seoul, Seoul, South Korea Gotta send annual haserot comes a ham Nida, of course, to Seoul Moscow, Russia Welcome Moscow on DH Hanoi Hanoi, Vietnam Sometimes Vietnam is with us, but we can’t see the city. But today we can we know. We know it’s Hanoi. Welcome, live! Listen, love to Vietnam and also Istanbul, Turkey. Very happy to have you with us Live love to you and Burundi. I’m sorry. We cannot see your city Brandy, but we know you are with us. So live love. I think that’s a first for burned e cool. And here in the U. S. Only couple Tampa, Florida Live love to you New York, New York Multiple love to see that. And on the heels of the live listen, love comes the podcast Pleasantry are pleasant trees. It’s multiple. There’s more than one listener podcast. In fact, they’re over thirteen thousand, so I can’t just send one pleasantry. The pleasantries to you so glad that you are with us. However, non-profit radio fits into your schedule. Pleasantries to you. Thank you for being with us on the podcast. Now, we’ve got lots more time for ethics in your prospect research. Um, anything you want to say, Marie Sample. I gave a big diatribe, and then I cut you off with a with a with a break. Anything you want to add or comment on About what I just said. Now, Now, I think I think we covered that in general. But I did want to spend a little bit of time talking about, you know, potential code of ethics that the organization might want to follow on where they could find some guidelines. Yes, you get your dirt free and dirt free. Resource is cheapen defremery everything. Okay, So there’s this awesome organization that you’ve heard me mention it before. That professional researchers prospect researchers either belong to it were at minimum, will adhere to their code of ethics and its apra a p r a. Dahna work. So that stands for the Association of Professional Researchers for Advancement. And the thing about APRA is that they’ve got this page of their website that is actually dedicated to their statement of ethics. So it would be great if your listeners at least went to the after a website. Took a look at the ethics statement Whether or not you remember and really take a look at you know what is involved? What are the areas that you need to be aware of as you’re putting together your your code of ethics for your organization. And they’ve even got a wonderful ethics tool kit. A za pdf document that’s chock full of great resource is so I really would encourage your listeners to go check out our our listeners. Maria. Simple, please. You made that mistake. You made that part in that pronounced twice. I share the listselect hours. No ownership here. Yes. So I I went through. I was disappointed with the statement of ethics. I I found it kind of vague. However, the tool kit had the good examples. Like I was looking for examples. All right, um, of you know, they talk about, for instance, in the statement of ah, statement of ethics, they talk about bilich shall only record data that is appropriate to the fund-raising process. So I was thinking for I was looking for examples of what’s inappropriate, but it gets flushed out when you go to the when you go to the tool kit now, right? So let’s, uh let’s talk a little about Oso in the ethics statement, it suggests a couple things like you should not be. You should not be friending prospects that you’re doing research on with your personal accounts for one is that that’s right. Is that your statement? Yes, yes, that’s correct. And and also, you should be transparent when you are doing any type of research on behalf of your organization, right? So if you’re, uh if you’re if you’re calling somewhere to find out, you know, whatever. Somebody stop holdings are something like that, you know, in public stockholding records and and they ask you, you know who’s calling you. You have to be transparent as to who you are on DH, you know, and what organizations of your work you know as well. So you want to just make sure that your you do have maintained the standard. Okay, so So when you’re calling, you’re not just saying, uh, my name is Maria Simple, but you’re giving the name of the organization that you’re calling on behalf of two. Is that what you mean? Right? And quite frankly, it is rare that you’re going to be asked for, you know? So when they’re publicly source to information, they’re typically not going to be asking, you know who’s calling? I mean, I’ve never called. For example, if I can’t find information on tax assessment records, right or tax property tax records and I call it an assessor’s office, they’ve never really asked Who is this? Why are you asking? Because they know it’s publicly available information. They just give you the information that you’re looking for, you know, on that property record so you can call and ask about any property you know, anywhere in the United States, and you’d be able to get that information without being asked. But if in the in the event that you ever are rushed to be transparent, so the same goes on social media, right, um, you can That’s why you don’t want to make a fake profile. But I know I saw that. Yeah, people do that. You don’t want to make a fake Lincoln profile with the, you know, with the intention of trying to take all these people into becoming your first degree connections just so that you can reap all this wonderful information off their profile, right? Because now they might be okay. Here’s an interesting one. Suppose they’re talking about their divorce on, um, Now, don’t make it Facebook, because the likelihood of friending prospect on Facebook is pretty slim, I think. But let’s see. Well, wait. Now let’s see if they’re If they’re a fan of your organization Page, does their personal feed become visible to you? No. No, it doesn’t. No, no, it doesn’t work that way. Okay, but if they made any comments, you know, on DH, I got in. Any person would make a comment about their divorce, and I’m trying to I’m trying to make it more like trying to make it more likely. Okay. Suppose this supposes Twitter, Um, suppose you’re the organization is following them on Twitter. Um, and, uh, and there another bitter. Or maybe they’re ecstatic. Maybe they did great. You know, maybe the guy reaped a big reward. Um, it feels like he you know, he’s got over. So the guy or the woman is now bragging on Twitter and you’re following them. That’s that’s public now. Right now, it’s now it’s public. Now it’s public. So in my opinion, I think my fellow researchers would probably agree with this. It would be perfectly fine Teo to take a screenshot or quote what was said and then give attribution to the day, uh, that you saw this particular quote on Twitter. Ah, and but again write it in a very objective way. So you know you don’t write. You don’t introduce it by saying, you know, looks like metoo windfall in their divorce, as evidenced by the tweets. And, you know, just you know this so and so commented on their divorce by saying, you know, the couple was divorced, It would appear the divorce is final and the prospect had the following tweet regarding their divorce. Not now. Very objectively written. Okay, I agree. I see. Um, so going into the going into the er going to the tool kit? Um, they said something about list sharing that I was surprised by, um, list sharing. Never share lists with volunteers, key stakeholders, um, etcetera, etcetera. But But they were saying they said volunteers and key stakeholders. But we’ve talked about Andi. I’ve had other guests to talk about sharing lists with board members. But but this opportunity, it says you shouldn’t be sharing this with volunteers and key stakeholders. What do you make of that? Yes, so again have a very clear policy in place. So if your organization’s policy would be that the only stakeholders who would have access to discussion of proactively created list would be boardmember and state that on DH, then maybe put together ah, confidentiality confidentiality policy for your volunteers board members on employees. Also, by the way, on DH, we could talk a little bit later about a particular organization that has an excellent example of those types confidentiality agreements. But if you are going to start doing that type of list creation, discussion of lists or even quite frankly, discussion of any prepared profiles that you have on individuals, it’s going to be a good idea. Tto have thes confidentiality policies in place. Okay, okay, shut out the organization now go ahead. The one that has good, good examples. What right? And so there’s one called the National Council of non-profits. Ah, and the the way I actually got to their their confidentiality agreement was actually through through the two tool kit and through operas website. So that would be a really good place for you to start. And then, you know, get your way over to those agreements that they get very good samples that you could literally just, you know, very easily modify, um, plug in the name of your organization, you know, run it by your attorneys to make sure that being the language would be appropriate for your organization and then actually have these folks sign it. So, Fury, let’s say you’re only going to have the Development committee is going to be the only folks that have access to any, uh, any of these profiles or these lists that you create and make sure that everybody on that development committee, whether they be a boardmember or outside the board, you might have you might have some outside boardmember is also involved in development efforts. Have them sign the agreement as well. And then these documents have to be treated properly after they’re after there. You set the board meeting, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. If you decide to print anything out, be extremely careful about what happens with those documents. Try not to let any of them walk out of the room, make sure you’ve got a shredder in house. The last thing you want is for something to go into the trash and, you know, or recycling or whatever and then get, you know, literally the wind blow it around the neighborhood. So did you want to be careful? And even though it’s all publicly sourced information, still, it is something that, uh, that they were accepted the donor or perspective donor. You know, out there in aggregate, it could be a lot more valuable than individual discrete pieces of data that people have to go and find on, especially when it’s a list of fifty potential major donors, etcetera or even foundations. All right, I want to give you a shout out. You are. You are named in the Capital kit because you wrote an article about being more than networth for from non-profit times and we so So you already already explained why you need need no liabilities, not just assets if you if you’re going to do real net worth. But they shot you out in the tool kit. So I wanted to mention that. Okay, wait. Just have thiss flies, but it always does with you. So we just have, like, thirty seconds left. Um, wrap us up. Okay. So to wrap this up, then you’ve got all this wonderful information. Make sure that it is stored in a secure way. Locked file, password protected files if you you share it through e mail. Make sure through password protected, encrypted ways that you’re communicating this thes profiles and so forth on. So make sure that the data is all security in some way. Ah, if your whatever you’re using Teo as your cr m Teo donorsearch software, make sure it’s password protected. And I know exactly who has access to those passwords, then change them often. Thank you very much. Maria. Simple. She is the Prospect Finder trainer and speaker on Prospect Research are doi and of their cheapened free you’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com And at Marie, a simple thank you again. Maria, Thank you for having me. Good to see you again. Thanks. My pleasure. Next week, more from the non-profit technology conference. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuing by witness Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made Easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A Creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer show. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other ninety five percent Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving Good. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern Time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned potential Live life your way on talk radio dot N Y c Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Yeah, Theo. Best designs for your life start at home. I’m David here. Gartner interior designer and host of At Home Listen, Live Tuesday nights at eight p. M. Eastern Time As we talk to the very best professionals about interior design and the design, that’s all around us right here on talk radio dot N. Y c. You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. If are you a conscious co creator, Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. 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Nonprofit Radio for March 15, 2019: The War For Fundraising Talent

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Jason Lewis: The War For Fundraising Talent
Rapid staff turnover and high donor attrition are merely symptoms of a larger problem: You’re not treating your fundraisers right. So says Jason Lewis. He’s author of the book, “The War for Fundraising Talent.”




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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on the aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Locke Socialism If you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show. The war for fund-raising talent, rapid staff turnover and high donor attrition are merely symptoms of a larger problem. You’re not treating your fundraisers right? So says Jason Lewis. He’s author of the book The War for Fund-raising Talent on Tony’s Take two nineteen and TC. We’re sponsored by pursuant Full Service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuing by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner’s cps dot com By Tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four, four nine nine nine I can welcome Jason Lewis to the show. It’s a pleasure to do that. He’s the author of the book The War for Fund-raising Talent and How Small Shops Can Win. He’s an A F P master trainer and contrary invoice on effective fund-raising practices, hiring decisions and donor behavior. He’s at the generous life and at louis fund-raising dot com. Welcome to the show. Jason Lewis. Hi, Tony. They’re glad to be here and looking forward to our conversation this evening. Absolutely cool. Where you calling from? I am in. Ah, Salisbury, Maryland. I’ve got a client out here on the eastern Shore, and so I’m sitting in the hotel lobby of of the of the hotel. Um, yeah, they got They have happy hour there, free drinks in the lobby. While you’re mean, you know, this is Can you imbibe while you converse? No. It’s pretty quiet here this evening. I think there’s a could only be one one other gentlemen in here and he doesn’t know happy are going on here. Okay, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, because I have a strict. I have a straight up vodka in front of me, so Yeah. Yeah, I was Yeah, there’s No, I don’t I don’t even know there’s a bar over there, but I don’t think part. Okay, okay. You need to get clients in bigger. Used to get clients in bigger cities with fancier hotels. Yeah, right exactly. Way. Take the clients that are right for us. Where are you based? Um, Tony. I live in York, Pennsylvania, which is about sixty five miles north of Baltimore. And, um, I travel in and out of Baltimore for most of my client work. We’ve lived in York for almost ten years. We moved up there after I was a major gifts officer in Washington. And we want to buy our first home and suburban Maryland right outside of the district’s not not terribly, but not not not terribly good for, ah, buying your first home. So we moved to York, and we’ve been there ten years. We’re all happy there. All right, all right. And you’ve got, like, twenty years in and fund-raising, right? Yeah, I am. Okay. I’m like I’m like a lot of people that have I sort of consider myself one of maybe one of the last, um of this generation that have sort of come in through the back door. You know, my wife and I were after college. We were looking for something to do together. And we went to work for a non profit organization. And I happened upon fund-raising in the process. But yes, I’m sort of one of those typical fundraisers who came through the back door. Not very deliberately, right? Like me, I came through law, hated practising our way, engineered myself too much happier existence. What’s this? What’s this war that we’re waging for fund-raising talent? Give it. Give it. Give a given intro to this idea of war. It’s pretty inside of the incendiary little provocative. Yeah, I was. I was. I was pretty deliberate with that title. I, um some people have said that some people have said that I was Teo combative with that title, but it certainly got the attention that I was looking for. Um, you know, tell Tony to say that the the the war that I’m actually talking about in the book is not a, uh It’s not the typical talent war in the sense of who gets the hyre Tony or who gets the hyre. Jason, um, I’m actually talking about more of an ideological war, essentially two competing mindset, Um, that I think are one of them. Sort of overwhelmingly president in the nonprofit sector. And then the other being the one that I think is the, um I certainly have found to be the one that wins, um, these two competing mind sets the one is, is the organization that assumes that there fund-raising challenges. Ey’re always resolved by this constant accumulation of new donors. And presumably the new donor comes with lesser expectation on the Delaware that they are already have. Yes, and then? And then the, uh, then I think you know is you look at the organizations that are winning it’s it’s organizations that get to get beyond the point of constant accumulation of of new donors. And they realize that the donors that they already have or are the way that the way all this works and being able to balance their expectations of the donor. But what expectations they have with the expectations that you would have of them so allows, allowing those expectations toe oppcoll sort of grow over time. Eyes actually, how that works stand. You say the war for fund-raising talent will be won by those who can combine a highest standard of professionalism with an organizational culture that thrives on meaningful engagement and meaningful engagement. Talking about engagement with the professional fundraiser, right? Yeah. I mean, you’ve got it. You’ve got it? Yeah, I mean, you’ve got to create a culture where that Aye, that development officer can thrive where they want to show up for work on Monday morning and enjoy their work. Yes. And then you’ve got to create a you’ve got to create a culture where that development officer can can be expected. Not that where that development officer can be expected to, you know, call on your existing donors and occasionally knock on their doors or meet them for coffee or what have you. And so instead of, instead of avoiding that meaningful engagement, they they’ve actually got to see that as an essential part of it. Yeah, on DH, we’ll have time to work our way into this, of course, because we have the hour together. But, you know, I pick something from the middle, the book. You know, I felt like there was a central thesis Who’s going toe? Who’s going to win this? It’s not really a culture war, but it was going to win. This war of ah, of ideas is really what we’re talking about. Um, you’ve got you. So as we back away from a little bit, you’ve got some concern about drifting away from our mission and the impact that that can have on fundraisers. A CZ. They’re pursuing major donors. And you call it Mission Drift. I think I would even call it Mission Hijack. What’s your What’s your concern there? Well, So, Tony, when you say that mention mission, let me clarify what you mean when you say mission hijack the meaning, the donor that wealthy that concentration of attention to wealthy donors can can, if in organizations not careful, allow it to embark on programs that aren’t court to its mission Because those where the wealthy donors interests lie. And in fact, I got it. I got to take our first break, Jason. So is that that makes him you know, where you know where headed now? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t want to make sure that when I responded to the question that I answered it, OK? I mean, I’m going with that, Okay? Exactly. I’m calling it Mission Hijack. You don’t You’re not that extreme. Surprisingly, because you’re the you’re the incendiary guy, but you backed off a little bit. Okay? All right. Allow me to take take this first break. Pursuing their newest free book is the Art of First Impressions. It’s all about Donorsearch acquisition. To attract new donors, you need to make a smashing first impression. Now, Jason and I are talking about some things that will hopefully help you not have to acquire new donors year after year after year. But to the extent you do have to be involved in donorsearch precision, uh, this e book will help you guiding principles for acquisition. Howto identify your unique value. It’s got some creative tips, and you will find it on the listener landing page. Tony Dahna. I’m a slash pursuant. Remember that capital P for, please. All right, let’s go back to the war for fund-raising talent. Okay, Jason s o What’s your concern around this? What you call Drift, I call hijack? Yeah, I think I think in the nonprofit sector there there is a lot of fear. There is a lot of fear that if we build relationships with major donors, wealthy people, that they will, you know, cause us or persuade us or require of us, hijack our mission, and they’ll expect us to, um, you know, go in the direction that we don’t want to go. But, um, what the argument that I’m making is that any relationship that is imbalanced, any any relationship? You know, Tony, you and I, you know, we develop a friendship and say, for example, you know, I’m on your podcast. You’re on mine and if one of us, uh, if one of us takes that relationship in a direction where the X where my where my expectations of you and your expectations of me or out of balance one of us is going to use words like drift or Ah, hi, Judge. I know he hijacked the relationship, and he took in the direction I didn’t want to go. And I think that’s actually what’s happening more often than not in the non-profit spaces. We don’t know how to. I don’t think it’s the donors that are out there hijacking our missions. I think it’s the organizations that our, uh, have have, quite frankly not learned how to have a balanced peer-to-peer relationship with their major donors. Um the fear the fear of mission drift or mission hijack actually can be very quickly resolved by simply having a appear relationship with a donor where the donor ask you to do something you don’t want to do. You have to have the confidence to tell him or no. And we haven’t gotten not enough of us who are out there trying to raise significant funds, especially in the smaller shops. Um, haven’t developed that confident Yeah, yeah. And I You know, I think that feeds back to the scarcity, the scarcity mindset, which, in this case, you know, I always called him scarcity Mindset. You go, You take the more incendiary and you call the scarcity lie. You know, it’s the I think what you’re describing feeds from that’s scarcity lie that we don’t have enough donors, so we can’t upset any of them. Oh, yeah. I mean, we we, um non-profit organizations are so shoot, we’re so you know, those of us who choose to start a prop up a non profit organization and we want to change the world were very oriented towards the people that we serve not poor, not towards the people that enable us to do the serving. And so we’re very comfortable, you know, spending time with children or patients or whomever, you know, homeless people that need to be bed or whatever does organizations doing. But we haven’t developed a confident sitting across the table from somebody who in many cases, has, you know, more wealth. And a lot of us will ever know if our monetary well, thousands and thousands of times over. Yeah, yeah, but But until you develop that that confidence to sit across the table from that individual and not allow his his or her monetary wealth, and similarly not allow your you know your mission in vision of the organization, neither one of them to sort of overpower, overwhelmed the relationship and say, Okay, we’re going to meet here. We’ll have a mutually satisfying relationship. Um, you know the same words I mean, I think I think it’s terrible that some of the language that we use nowadays to describe what we think donors air out there capable or willing or desirous of doing it’s the same language that it It’s just it’s just the language that we would attribute to any dysfunctional relationship. Um, but dysfunctional relationships generally here to a street. Yeah, we oftentimes get into a pattern of behavior where we’re enabling and allowing that person to behave that way. And we’ve got to change that. But But But my point is that that that fear of making that change that you’re now describing comes from the scarcity lie that we haven’t got enough donors, so we can’t piss any of them off. I’m well, yeah, absolutely. Well, Tony. So what, They’re Yeah, they’re there. If you never If you got one hundred names on a mail, you know we’ve got these databases. We love our databases. So if you’ve got a hundred names in your database, um, most of us have been a multiple upon multiples. Mohr. And you never sit across the table from them. You never learned that. They are that they’re not broke. You never learned that they’re not that the three sources aren’t scared, right? Well, that you have you. Yeah, Yeah, that’s on. That goes that goes to your concern about too much arm’s length fund-raising which we’re goingto get, we’ll get to, uh, yeah. Okay. I just s Oh, yeah. Yes, of course. You want the keys? There was a lot of wasted syllables. Uh, What? Yes, of course you want it. You do want a balanced relationship, and you want to relieve yourself, Shed yourself of the the scarcity lie that there isn’t enough to go around. You don’t have enough to survive so that everyone needs to. Every donor needs to be placated and never ruffled or troubled or or disagreed with that. Because Because then you’ll always then you then you are at risk for the the mission hijack or the mission drift that that that we’re talking about. And and that’ll be particularly unsatisfying. Going back to your thesis about fund-raising. That’ll be unsatisfying to your front. Your professional fundraisers. Because they’re always coming at this from an obsequious position. Hoo! That’s a big word. Explain that we’re that I don’t know. I don’t know what the hell it means I saw it. It was word of the day a couple days ago. No, it’s Ah, it’s that you’re It’s a fawning, ah, forming attentiveness, your falling over yourself to be kind and and, you know, attentive and complimentary of the person that’s an obsequious itt’s pajarito. It’s bad. I know. You know what? I’m sorry. I’m just good to finding everywhere. Yeah, it’s a majority on You don’t want your fundraisers thinking that way. I don’t think I tend to think, and I didn’t I didn’t hammer this message too heavy in the book, but I think you’ve got a lot of non-profit organizations out there that are being run by people that, quite frankly, have control issues. Um, and you know, if I’m in a room with these folks, often times I’m I’m I’m pretty forward about saying, you know, we’ve got a lot of non profit organizations that are being run by control freaks, and they don’t know how to relinquish that sense of control. That oftentimes is not unreasonable. You know, if the donor wants to paint the wall pink and you want to paint it purple, you know, we need to ask ourselves if if we were, If if our mission statement really was all about whether or not we painted the wall pink or purple or if it had, you know, if what we’re aiming for was much more significant than that. And, um so I don’t think we’re I think you’ve got more organizations out there that are being run by people who want control, not by people who want to change the world. And And that’s what you know. I don’t know, impact control a whole lot in the book, but that’s essentially what I think it comes down to is you’ve got a lot of control freaks out there that Yeah, you know, and the possibility that a donor will come in and say, Hey, let’s do it this way Really freaks out a person who wants to maintain control. Well, don’t hold out hope. Don’t hold back on non-profit radio Listeners weaken. They can take straight talk. So you can if you if you didn’t want to go into it in the book. Maybe that’s your second book. I’m sure that’ll be your your follow-up book about control and maybe even sometimes founder. You know that Founder, founder misery. But any case now, probably radio listeners could take you straight. In fact, you devote a whole you’ve got a whole chapter. We don’t have a lot of you don’t. I don’t feel like we’re going to have time to go into this, but because people just have to buy the book. I mean, the book is the war for fund-raising talent. It’s on Amazon. You’ve just got to get it. But you have a whole You have a hole. You agree with that? Are you agree with that premise? You gotta buy the book. You know, You know, you have no trouble with that, do you? Okay. Yeah. Chapter hounded by charities. You know, where you talk about cheap and low risk and shallow, you know that? That type of fund-raising and I think it. I think it’s fed by the scarcity mindset. You know, we got to go after every nickel. So So with that sort of, with that chapter in mind, but that hounded, you know, and that sort of transactional, you know that transactional fund-raising? Well, yeah, yeah. So if I was rewriting the book and I was and you were coaching the tony on how to write this thing. And I was talking to an audience you’re doing Now forget about it. Forget about it. You may as well do a comic book. Sorry to the comic book collectors who think there’s a graphic novels and they’re not graphic novels. If it’s got pictures, it’s a comic book. I don’t care if it’s hard covered with four hundred pages. That’s a comic book. Okay, get that graphic novel nonsense out of your head. Okay, I’m sorry. Like minor digression. In any case, your book is doomed if you got me coaching you. But if you want to follow that hypothetical go ahead. Yeah, I mean, if if you if I was looking at that particular chapter, I tell the Olive cooked the story of olive cook in the United Kingdom who jumped off of a bridge and jump stur during tragic death. And she was probably more than likely she was depressed and had other mental illness. Uh uh, that that precipitated that. But the press decided that it was it was direct mail to blame. And and and I don’t and I don’t think that for a minute that the direct mail is necessarily what what caused this woman Tio to commit suicide. But what I do think is that I don’t think that direct mail. I don’t think that the charities that were, um, overwhelming her mailbox contributed to a meaningful life for this woman. Um, I think they could have been. I think they and you know, the I think the charitable organizations that were hounding her as the as the press said, I could have recognize that this woman was reaching out to charitable organizations and contributing to them and trying to enhance our quality of life. But instead we have turned it into we have turned a lot of fund-raising practice into a machine, and all it cook just becomes sort of the ultimate miserable example of sort of what happens when the machine just goes, You know, out of control. I wantto way I want it back a little bit for listeners. So Olive Cook story, I think. Twenty, fourteen. Jason twenty, twenty, fifteen. The woman was getting lots of emails. All stations. Fifty seven fifty, sixty a day or something or forty fifty letters a day. And she was a middle income woman, and she was overwhelmed and she killed herself. She jumped off a cliff into a gorge. She lived in the UK and like like Jason just said, the press decided that that was because she was overwhelmed by charitable solicitations. And, you know, that’s certainly open to a lot of AA AA lot of argument. But in case I just want to backfill the story, so But it’s so Okay, so with that now we understand that I want to get to My question is, um, do we need to do what? What? What would it look like if if a non-profit that was doing a lot of this transactional, as you say, You know, shallow fund-raising. Andi. Just about all non-profits do. But suppose they recognize that their they, like they can never convert, or they hardly ever convert these transactional ten, fifteen, twenty, maybe even fifty hundred dollar gift. They never convert them to more to major gif ts or to what you call, you know, significant gifts. But even just getting two major gifts. What if they abandoned that transactional practice? Suppose they just stopped and devoted, though that time and money two major gift fund-raising. What do you think that what you think that would fly in an organization? What do you think that would look like? I mean, is it feasible to just abandon the transactional and put those resources toward Major E-giving? Hyre? I don’t I don’t know if that’s the question, whether or not it’s feasible. There’s plenty of organizations that have done the analysis, Tony, that says that if they removed thirty percent of their file, it wouldn’t. It wouldn’t change the outcome if if if they just I’ve got a friend of mine who’s in direct response and he’s done. He’s done the analysis on these huge databases, and there’s there’s a segment, you know? What portion of what segment of your database are you mailing to that if you just stopped feeling? Um and I think it’s a very valid question, But any enterprise in a non-profit or for-profit enterprise, fellows to them now. Jason, Jake, Jason, we need you to call back. I’m going to take a break. Jason, I hope you can hear me. Jason, give you give a call back, please call the studio back. Okay? Okay. Okay. Thank you. Lost him. But we’ll get him right back. It happens this is, uh, you know, it’s live, although it’s it’s not live were pre recorded, but we don’t have it. That’s what you know that you What you know is that we don’t edit, so we’ll take a break break cracking like I’m fourteen. Ah, and we’ll take that break for Wagner. CPS, so enough. Yeah, I’ve done the archive Webinar. Okay, we’re done with that now. Well, you see, Piela they’re accountants, right? Do you need help with your nine ninety this year? You’re looking for a new audit firm. Patronise a non-profit radio sponsors. How about that? Look at them. Check out Wagner’s site and then call them up. Talk to that partner. Yeah, Huge tomb. Alright. See if they can help you out. I’d be grateful they’d be grateful. Weinger cps dot com Now let’s go into Tony’s. Take two. And we’ll just do this a little bit early because we had that little glitch on DH Tony Tony steak too. So now this time and I’m at non-profit rate, I am non-profit radio are ah non-profit radio is our show. I’m not the non-profit technology conference and T C nineteen ninety sea right now. Not it’s not now for me, it’s going to be then for me. I’ll be there then. But it’s now for you. When that comes, then, Because when I’m there, then you’ll be here. Now, here with me. But not here with me. There. You’ll be here with me. Then you might be here then. But you wouldn’t be with me unless you happen to be in booths five o eight and five. Ten at the convention center in Portland, Oregon. So if you’re not there, then there. Then you wouldn’t be with me then. But you can be with me now. Here, when I’m here with you. Right here. I’ll be here then for you now, like I always am. Right? And I want to thank ActBlue for sponsoring Non-profit radio at NTC. They’re doing it now and then here and there. And you know them for their three billion dollars in small donations, get to know them for small dollar donations for your organization. And you could check out our non-profit, your sponsor at tony dot M a slash actblue. And that is Tony’s. Take two. Now let’s get back to Jason Lewis. The war for Fund-raising talent. Jason, you back with us. I am sorry we lost. Okay? Yeah, Yeah, it happens. I don’t know that the hotel lobby have some commotion like that Happy hour start or something? I don’t know, but I’m made sure to turn on something. Snapped some part of my phone to make sure that maybe that doesn’t happen again. Okay. Okay. Well, you would know if you would know if Happy hour started around you, wouldn’t you? Oh, yeah. That has guarded. It is still the same. Lonely. I don’t know how many of your listeners have ever been to Salisbury, Maryland, but it’s a quiet little town that’s about fifty miles from the promotion city, Maryland, and not a lot happening. And OK, down. I can tell you that the tourism from Ocean City has not bled over, but it also does not. But I do know people make money here. There are people here who make money over there. So, uh, there might be a few fundraisers who come through here on occasion. Here. There. When? When you’re there with them here, then? Yeah. If you’re in real estate. Not now. If you live in Salisbury, Maryland, chances are you’re in real estate. You know, oceanfront, real estate, condos, rental units, that sort of stuff. So yeah, okay, But we were talking about that. That transactional fund-raising what that would look like if you abandon that, and what you were starting to get to is a CZ. You said, You know, if you took a third of your file perhaps and stopped soliciting them by by these transactional methods, there wouldn’t be much loss or any loss. And it might actually be a gain if you move those resources into the more high dollar major e-giving. And I’ve seen something like that from a guest ahead on recently. Curtis Bingham. When I saw him live, there was there was a segment of small dollar transactions that that that’s a very large company. Hundreds of thousands of customers. So they had a large data file. Was it was able to purge and and actually profited by reallocating resources away from. So I’m just wondering, you know what? That what that would look like. I mean, it would be It would be radical, I think, for a lot of organizations. Well, if you get if you get if you sort of loop back to what I’m talking about about their sense of control. You know, arm’s length fund-raising cheap, shallow, arms linked fund-raising is not about raising significant dollars. It’s about maintaining a sense of control. And it is avoiding that fear that you started with, you know, in a few minutes ago, The idea that if we let the stone or come into we let too many donors get too close to the mission, they might tell us to do something we don’t want to do. So, um, I think there’s I think, if we really got, I think if we really wrestled with, some of us would find out that the reason that we maintain these cheap, shallow relationships with our donors has less to do with whether or not they can actually give us more money or not. But because it maintains that sense of control. If we took a third, it’s just hypothetically, just just sort of cat. You know, put your put your put any organizations donors in the three categories. There’s the third that they’re not going to make any money on, and they’re better off not mailing to them at all. There’s the third that on the other end of the spectrum that there they don’t have to mail, too, and they get very significant gifts from and and the margins on what they invest in. Those donors are huge. I think there’s plenty of opportunity and enough of our organization’s today with this metal category of donors that says if we’ll invest, if if will invest in more meaningful relationships with these people, weaken. Therefore, raise our expectation of these individuals and expect them to give Mohr more meaningful contributions. Yeah, that’s where I think it’s that middle category of donor um, that, I think is both the opportunity. But it is also the the change agent, if you will, that would revolutionise the way a lot of organizations raised funds, because if all of a sudden I’ve got a middle, if I’ve got what we would tip, typically call sort of a mid level donor if all of a sudden I’m engaging them in more meaningful ways, they’re not writing these extraordinary gifts. You know, they’re not writing huge six and seven figure gifts, but they’re writing checks that, you know when you bunch them together with, You know, twenty five other people. It’s a pretty big deal. But tow have those people now engaged in the organization in a way that’s more meaningful is a different type of organization. Let’s eso let’s talk about how to treat some of those that middle third that you describe. You say you say we gonna learn a lot from e harmony. Yeah. Okay. Tell us so and you know it. Right? And, Tony, I’m really grateful that you read the book because, well, what the hell? Oh, my God. I do. Most people not what? How would I have a conversation with an author if I don’t read it? But I know I totally You know what, Tony? I think I’ve done. I don’t know, probably a dozen of these interviews. And nobody’s mentioned the harmony. So a man? Yeah. I mean, it’s it caught my eye because my wife and I are having trouble. So I I’ve been checking out myself, so I have some personal interest in it as well. So, yes, that all its not all altruistic. Non-profit hyre fine. Well, were not. I’m not in the harmony. Let’s just leave it at that. Let’s not overstate the brilliant Tony, the brilliant behind our harmony. What about them? A Harmony is has has has an algorithm, has a model. They got a business model that says we don’t want people using our system that want cheap, shallow, one night stand relationships with the people that they’re dating that we want to, so that they’re using the same platform that any other you know, Essentially, they’re providing the same dating platform that any other organisms in the other dating service would. But but they were using such an algorithm that requires that the person they raised, the expectation they have a high bar. They have a high bar to have my heart hyre Barda entry. Yeah. Yeah. So the point of entry in getting into the system is much higher than then. You know, the average Joe guy who’s going in and looking for you because I mean, the application I filled out. I mean, the application that you have to fill out is long, and it’s intended to prove that you are looking for a serious relationship, not just dating and sleeping around, which is why I abandoned. But, I mean, I would abandon if I if I if you ever ever had, because, uh, you know, coming out of a marriage. Well, all right, let’s let’s just drop that. Um Okay. So what’s the analog to fund-raising? Well, so both both the both the harmonies of the world and all the other dating websites are using technology to essentially draw in and engage with their customers with their perspective customers, in our case, with perspective donors. And there’s no reason why we have to, as a nonprofit organization, assume that there’s not ways too raised the bar and set the expectation hyre rather than just make it, um, brother than lower the bar. Okay, So what does that? What does that look like? Give us some examples of raising the bar as you’re dealing with this, this middle tier of donors and you’re trying to upgrade them. Most of my clients. Most of my clients are hearing from me that the donor, the donor who makes the initial gift, needs to be receptive to a to a thank you call and a first time needing so any time, um to ah, to ah, an in person meeting. And and And so if Tony, if you sent one hundred dollars on giving Tuesday back in November to my charity one of my clients, you’re going to receive a thank you call from that charitable organization and they’re going to allocate somebody’s time to sit down with you. Um, acknowledged that gift and begin to set the expectation that if if you’re going to be one of our donors, we’re going to expect more than that hundred dollars of you every year. But in return, we’re going toe. You know, we’re going to do things like we’re going to sit down and occasionally have a cup of coffee with you, Okay? And and if you say in the book, you quote Jerry Panis in the book, saying, eighty percent of the, uh, the work of non-profit fundraisers is getting that first meeting. So So you also like that? Are you telling your class, then? For the for the ones who won’t sit down after the hundred dollar gift? We’re not goingto you know where we won’t be spending personal time with them anymore, right? That’s exactly right. I disagreeing. I’m just I’m just trying to flush you out at that. That’s an example of how you would begin to discern. So all of my clients use what I referred Teo three lanes. And if you’re if you’re a donor who’s going Teo, be duitz. If if If you’re a donor, who’s going to be expected of, um you know, five times, five times what? That initial gift wass you, Khun, you, Khun, therefore expect us to similarly invest in that relationship. And Gerald Panis is, you know that he he told that to. He pointed that out to a lot of us, and I don’t know why we have not sort of taken that same logic and used it as a way to sort of test who these people are that we’re interacting with. Uh, you know, after that, initial gifted, the person will not sit down with you for a cup of coffee and talk about why your organization is of interest to them. Um, where that relationships going to go long term is seems very sceptical to may. Okay, so then, in that case, we will just continue to accept the person’s hundred dollar gift per year. I guess. Obviously, we’ll send thank you notes, but we’re not going to get well, send standard. Thank you’s your your advice would be, um, I getting this right, But but we wouldn’t. Wouldn’t be calling the person to say thank you. You after year, we’re going to move on to find people who will sit down with us after they’re They’re one hundred dollar gift. Is that Do I have that right? Yeah. Yeah, I got into a conversation with someone the other day. That was sort of along this line. Of what? So what do you do with that individual who sends you a hundred dollars on giving Tuesday? Refuses tto have that cup of coffee. Do you, you know, is that if that person completely ignored from there, you know, what do they do? They do. They now occupy a spot on your database or don’t pay, and and you continue to mail to them. I I tend to be more extreme in my in my encouragements. And I say, Look, you know, if if if if a subsequent that person’s names on your database within six months if you’re not getting a subsequent gift from that person, I think you need to allow the science of fund-raising to sort of work in your favor. And you need to sort of say, this person’s really probably not going anywhere with us. And they’re occupying a spot on our database in such a way that’s going to constantly convince us that there’s opportunity there when it’s not there. Um, and so what do you do? As a result? What? Let’s get drill down to the nitty gritty of this. What do you do with the person you’re staying? You stop inhaling. Yeah. I’m not selling to that person any more than okay, like a custom cannot nailing to that person anymore. Not even to Mom. Not even to maintain their hundred dollars. Well, the thing about that hundred dollars is that hundred dollars. It is the same that is in and of itself what I’m talking about with new act with arms linked fund-raising. The organization is convincing itself that that that’s the way that fund-raising works, and so I’m not only trying to raise more money, but I’m also trying to combat these assumptions as to how this works, if used. If you continue to spend money, be it a little or being a lot of money every year to renew that hundred dollars, That’s one hundred dollars that I can’t spend to pay somebody to go and have that cup of coffee with somebody. Um, and find out that someone else who did give on giving Tuesday and will sit down for a cup of coffee will agree to give five times as much money. Okay, wait, we gotta look confused. We’re not. We’re not spending a hundred dollars to get a hundred, but whatever we are spending, you wantto allocate that elsewhere. I do. Right? I’m trying to get people to to do best. You know you’re going to reduce their investment in new acquisition and anything that looks like new acquisition and reinvest it in. And because a lot of people will say to me when I’m making this case, they’re going to say to me, Jason, we can’t afford to send people out to have cups of coffee for five hundred dollars gifts. And in my pushback on, that is Well, of course, you can’t not on the model that you have now that is dependent on, you know, extort, maintaining extraordinary volumes with relationships that don’t yield types of support you want to get. But when you changed the economics, it becomes much less. Because it becomes a much less scary, uh, proposal. When you when you start, when you start to see donors, you can see this. You see this play out when when organizations start taking donors out the lunch when they start having coffee conversations in these donorsearch art, giving five and ten times as much they gave that first time the light goes on in their head and they realised, OK, this how this works. Okay, hold hold there. I got to take another break. Sure, tell us. This is the long stream of passive revenue. You get half the fee when tell those processes. Credit card transactions for companies that you refer. It’s perfect for small organizations that need more revenue. Revenue. Diversity Red. This is revenue you don’t have to work for each month each year like Jason hyre talking about. It’s passive. Watch the video, then send companies to watch and make your ask. Go to Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s I Want to do the live Listener Love. As I had said, We’re not live here. I’m at NTC. Let’s not Let’s not rehash that that morass again. But the live love goes out for the people who are listening live. Thank you. I’m glad you’re with us on the podcast. Pleasantries to the over thirteen thousand listeners in the time shift pleasantries to you. I’m grateful that you are with us. Now. Let’s go back to Jason Lewis. Okay. Anything more? You wanted Teo say about the shifting economics? The reallocation of resource is, um the abandonment of of donors that look tantalizing, but they’re never really going to come. They’re never going to come around. So, yeah, the only thing the only thing I would point out again, I just something that I don’t unpack in great detail in the book. But I want us to pay it. I want any anyone who’s reading my book, but I do want them. Tio, keep in mind that that hundred dollar gift that we’re talking about. So you’re you’re begging the question. Okay, What do we do about that hundred dollars gift that will not convert to a lunch table conversation into a larger gift? The reality is that more and more non-profit organizations are going to be enlisting the help of outside. You know, vendors outsource sort of solutions that they can largely be executed via technology, and they’re not gonna be employing full time fundraisers to just to maintain that hundred dollars gift. And so part of what I’m pushing back on in the book is the definition of what fund-raising talent is. And I’m saying that if the donor when you get the one hundred dollars on giving Tuesday, um, your ability is a fundraiser to pick up the phone and ask for that gift, that’s where the job start, not where it wraps up and we’re not. I don’t think you’re going to see non-profit organizations in the same numbers that we historically have be paying fund-raising professionals to acquire these first gifts. There’s no, there’s no necessity for that. We can outsource that. We can rely on technology to do that. And anything that technology and in an outsourcing solution can’t do, Um, can be accomplished with volunteers. Wait. Don’t need to pay fundraisers to secure initial gifts. Volunteers or technology. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I wanna make I wanna make one thing clear. I don’t beg II. Just ask. I’m not begging. Okay. Um, you talk about you wanna spend some time on deliberate practice for fundraisers and, uh, by my count. You got four different for maybe five include the include the list, right? Include the last five deliberate the river practices that you want to see fundraisers engaging because you feel again You know, I’m summarizing I’m not giving you a chance to flesh out everything because you tend to be allover boast So I I can’t I can’t spend time everything that you have. But you’re the author too, so I don’t blame you. You know, I’ve never written a book, so I just talk, You know, it’s just it’s just, uh a different medium, but yeah. So, you know, you you, uh you don’t feel that experience in it is experience in and of itself creates good fund-raising, which which, I mean, I think that’s got some intellectual or some some some some appeal that’s intuitive as well. Just because you’ve been doing something for thirty years doesn’t mean you do it. Well, you could be very mediocre and lackluster for thirty years. Maybe you got better. But that still doesn’t mean you’re you know, you’re at the peak of your game or he thinks, Oh, so you like to see instead of just experience, Uh, you like you like fundraisers to engage in these deliberate practices. You, uh, you want to kick off with What? A deliberate practice. That’s your favorite? Yeah. The one of the deliberate practices that I use. I’ve scored the most points with when I’m trying to train up development officers with my clients. Is this concept of two weeks out? And and what that means is that when you pick up the phone so this same scenario that I was talking about, what with the coffee after giving Tuesday, um, you schedule all your meetings two weeks out. So if I called you up, Tony and said, um, you know, thank you for the contribution you made on giving Tuesday. Can we get together for a cup of coffee? I don’t allow my clients to schedule that needing any sooner than two weeks out on their schedule. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason I’m doing that is because I’m trying to get the donor to signal to the organization that they are, in fact, a priority for the organization. And therefore we will put I will put you on my calendar, and I will. I will give you that spot on my calendar two weeks out. Kind of like you and I. We scheduled this, uh, this interview here, you signaled to me that I was important to you. And so you put me on your schedule, and that signals a heightened level of, you know, equality in the relationship that had we not scheduled it. Um, you know, if you would have just sort of reached out yesterday and said, Hey, can you get together? Six O’Clock. That would have signalled something very different. And I think that’s what’s happening with a lot of the way that development officers interact with their donors, is there not? They’re not raising the bar. They’re not raising the expectation of saying, hey, make me a priority in your schedule. Um, and consequently if if that happens, you’re going to also become a quality. You know, you’re going to become a priority, and they’re giving. Okay, So So you say even even if even if the sounds like somebody’s checking in checking in xero noisy group chaillou busload just come in to check in for the night or something. Maybe they’re there. Maybe they’re on their way to Ocean City. All right. Okay. Um, but you. You make the point. Even if s o, I call someone’s made a hundred dollars gift I call and the donor the donor says, Yeah, yeah, I’ve got I’ve got space on my calendar. We could we could do it on, uh, we could do with this Friday. Yeah. Yeah. You want to turn that? You want me to turn that down? I do. I want you to turn that down because I’m trying to train up your patterns and habits, and I’m trying to get a read. I’m trying to get a signal from the donor as to whether or not you’re truly a priority for them. Um, and so I want you to stay to them. No, I can’t do that. Um, one of things. A new development. A new development officer who’s just starting out. He or she will generally answer that question. And if you say I could get together this Friday, once you come on over, you know, development offices, that development officer that’s not all that busy would say. Sure, I can do that. Yeah, but our ability to maintain most of my development officers are hearing for me that I want fifteen to twenty meetings a month. You’re not going to get into the habit of successfully scheduling fifteen to twenty meetings a month if you’re not scheduling them two weeks out. And so you have to start setting yourself up now for what? You anticipate your schedule look like? Um okay, I don’t Okay? I don’t understand that. I don’t understand your premise. How come? Are you all right? We gotta take a break. So I’m going there on here. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Uh, we take a break, but I’m goingto I’m challenging something. I don’t understand your premise. You just said you’re not gonna be able to schedule fifteen to twenty meetings a month if you’re if you’re not scheduling them two more. Two more weeks out. Okay? I don’t understand. I don’t understand that premise, but we’re gonna take a break, and then I’ll let you go. You respond? Yep. Our last break text to give diversify your revenue by adding mobile. Giving another another revenue. Diverse afire. Mobile giving. Not only for disasters. You can build relationships by text. Where was Jason? Just talking about using technology. You see how this fits together to not happen. Stance As much a cz Many times I tell you, I feel like a taste. My mother still doesn’t believe it. Um, I should use my my dad is the example. So I’m like, my dad still doesn’t believe it. You can’t build relationships by technology and by text. You’re doing it all the time with family and friends. Do it with donors. You can learn how, by the five party male, many course. It dispels misconceptions and explains how to get started. Build relationships through technology, see how it fits together. Text NPR to four, four, four nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes left for the war for fund-raising talent. Okay. Jason Lewis. So, um, yeah, I don’t understand your premise. What? Well, how come I can’t schedule fifteen to twenty if I if I do use the intervening two weeks from from when I’m making calls. Yeah. So I want the development officer to get into a habit of scheduling all of his or her meetings two weeks out so that he or she can maximize his or her time. Um, and, you know, have the advantage of time to do that. Scheduling it’s what I’m trying to get you to avoid is a tear. Any of the urgent? So a lot of develop a lot of non-profit two years of any sort are running around putting fires out all the time, Um, because they’re allowing the tyranny of the urgent to sort of overwhelmed them. And I don’t want that, too to factor into your fund-raising practices anymore than I want that to factor in anywhere else. Um, so I’m both trying tio to coach the development officer in his or her management of their time, And I’m also trying to ensure that the donor is signaling back to you that you’re a priority for them. And that’s what this particular deliberate practice does is that it signals, um it also signals to the development. I mean, it’s signals to the donor. Yes. I called you up here with the donor. If you’re the donor and I call you up. And I said, Can we get together? And you say, Come on over tomorrow and I say, No, I can’t do that. I’m busy. That also signals to you that I’m a busy guy and that my time is important. Um, and okay, okay. I get your Yeah. All right. All right. So there’s some, uh, little bit of scarcity. You know, my time is important. Uh, it’s and it’s already booked, so Okay. All right. And he’s not your only you understand. That’s not your only you know that. That’s not loose back all the way back to where we started at the beginning of the conversation. I mean, if we’re constantly in this sort of this here inferior spot, Um, you know, we’re always in this sort of begging posture allowing the donor to sort of do whatever they say we’re going to do, um, whether it be on the schedule or what we do with their money? Um, yeah. Okay. Let’s talk about another deliberate practice we got. We got five of them. Yes. Go ahead. You name one. Then I’ll pick one after you go ahead or the last one. The last one, I think, is the one that tends to push my development officers the most. And that is that you always ask in person, and you follow-up on paper. And what that means is so Earlier this week, I was in Texas with one of my clients and I’m coaching the gentleman on on how to solicit gifts. And And I’m insisting that first you asked the donor for this gift in person, and then you be prepared when you return to the office. If you haven’t already drafted this letter, you re articulate exactly what was, uh, what what was requested. And you put it back and you put it in the mail so that the donor receives that essentially the same request in written form. What that does it does. It does a couple of things, um, the first thing that it does that ensures that the person who’s, uh, making the solicitation in person, it ensures that they’re speaking very explicitly that they’re not sort of beating around the bush with whatever they’re asking for because they know that there’s a letter back it back at the office. It’s going to get written that’s going to state everything explicitly, um, and written out as well. The other thing that it does that create sort of AA closing of the, uh uh, the the oversight loop, if you will. The way in which development officers air over the way in which there e-giving oversight from their supervisors this letter, this letter that goes out to Mr Mrs Smith, it says thank you for meeting with me. I hope you’ll you know, if you give consideration to the gift of ex, whatever I asked you for, close that loop with the supervisor cubine carbon copy the supervisor on this loop and it essentially signals to the developer to the boss to the managing to the over the manager is that you’re essentially doing your job. Um, one of the things I critique development officers all the time for doing is we think that they’re paid. We the non-profits think that these people are paid to raise money. They’re not actually paid to raise money. They’re paid to ask for money, but we don’t give any way. For our supervisors are boards and bosses to ever see that they’re raised that they’re asking for money. So this is just one of those ways that we can demonstrate that we’re going, you know, full circle that from the point at which we, you know, acknowledged the first gift to the point at which we asked for a very significant gift. That’s what you’re getting paid for. You’re not getting paid for. Ah, guaranteeing that that person turns around, writes a check that’s not within your control. Okay, Jason. Unbelievably, we have to leave it there. We did not get to the full five delivered practices which are assigned list. You should have one hundred fifty. No more than fifty and meaningful conversations are. That’s a good one. Meaningful conversations you’ve got. You’ve got to get the book. You know, you don’t want to have these shallow conversations on DH. Subsequent meetings should be in teams. Those of the three that we didn’t get to the book is the war for fund-raising talent. You’ll find that Amazon, you’ll find Jason Lewis. He’s all around, Let’s see. But specifically, you’ll find him at the generous life and that louis fund-raising dot com. Jason, thank you so much. Thank you. Tony has been great for my pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for putting me at the top of the other ten or twelve podcasts that did not ask about harmony. No slackers. Slackers like lost a lackluster, lackluster podcasters. Okay, next week, talk about lackluster. I don’t know. I don’t know what next week’s show is going to be. If you missed any part of today’s show. I beseech you, Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P by Wagner CPAs. Guiding you Beyond the numbers records cps dot com By Tello’s Credit card and Payment Processing You’re passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers Claire Meyerhoff, Sam Liebert, says the line producer. There is no music. How can I say the music is by Scott Stein? There it is. That’s a family with the line producer. It’s his job to put the music up. Show Social Media’s by Susan Chavez. He’s ninety nine out of one hundred, so, you know, give him a break. Mark Silverman is our Web guy mean? Most times, there’s no trouble at all. And this music is by Scots Diner Brooklyn with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent Go out and be great you’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving. E-giving. You are listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in sometime potentially ater tune in every Tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show Yawned Potential live life Your way on talk radio dot n Y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com dafs. Do you like comic books and movies? Howbout TV and pop culture. Then you’ve come to the right place. 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Nonprofit Radio for March 8, 2019: What Does The Data Divulge?

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Steve MacLaughlin: What Does The Data Divulge? 
Predictors for planned gifts. The state of online giving. And what to expect for 2019 fundraising. Steve MacLaughlin from Blackbaud shares the data on these topics and explains what it means.






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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of pseudo graphia. If you wrote to me that you missed today’s show, what does the data divulge predictors for planned GIF ts the state of online giving and what to expect for twenty nineteen fund-raising. Steve MacLachlan from Blackbaud shares the data on these topics and explains what it means on Tony’s take to Act Blue and nineteen NTC. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text. NPR two four for four nine nine nine Real Pleasure to Welcome Back Steve McLachlan to Non-profit Radio He’s the vice president of Data and Analytics at Blackbaud and best selling author of Data Driven Non-profits. He spent twenty plus years with a broad range of companies, government institutions and non-profits. He’s been featured as a fund-raising non-profit sector and data expert in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, The Boston Globe. Blah, blah, blah The Chronicle. Philanthropy. Yes, yes! Blob blob. I’ve been I’ve been in some of these. I’ve been I was in The Chronicle. I was in The New York Times. I wasn’t I wasn’t in The Washington Post. I have not been in the Times. I’ve not been in the Boston Globe non-profit times. Yes, I was there. Stanford Social innovation with you. Yes, yes. Bloomberg Now I’ve been there on He’s appeared on National Public Radio. And of course, now it’s time for you, Stephen Hawking, to update your bio to say that you’ve appeared on Non-profit Radio. He’s at S MacLachlan, and the company is at blackbaud dot com. Welcome back, Steve MacLachlan. Thanks for having me back, Tony. Pleasure. Oh, you’re loud and clear. You use. I’m going to give a little shout out. You’re still loud and clear. I’m going to give a shout out to the mike that you and I both use. The yeti blew us B. Yes. Way both, like, the same high quality podcasting equipment. Absolutely. That And I I first heard that there were other people who, like I was on their shows and they sounded so clear. It happened twice. I was interviewed by other people, and I asked them both what they were using. And they said the yeti blew us B And, you know, one of them sent me a link to Amazon. And for a hundred bucks, it’s a very good mike. So there you go. Absolutely. Uh, And you’ve had yours. I think you told me you had yours a couple of years. A few years. Love it. Yeah. Shake it with me wherever I do. This kind of thing. You travel, you travel with it. I have travelled with it. Okay? It’s not travel friend. That’s kind of big. And yeah. Okay. Interesting. I never thought about doing that, but that’s how much you love it. So there you go. Shout out for Yeti Blue. Um, all right. So, uh, let’s see. Steam O’Clock in what’s been on your mind lately? You, uh, you here’s here’s what happened? You you tweeted something about a mysterious plan to gift, and you said it shouldn’t have been so mysterious. That was that was because of the because of the story on Alan Nayman in December eighteen. Or was there some other impetus to that tweet? I think it was probably that one. I think it was around there where you train with an eye. Reinardy. Yeah, I responded. Yeah, yeah, that was for years. You know, I every time these surprise gift stories come up, I always have the same reaction. Which is what? It really a surprise. I shouldn’t have tried. Should it have been you? And in this case, I think, yeah, you’re referring to the Alan Ayman story that was in, you know, all over the media towards end of year. And I was on the twitter, tweeting and sort of a pine that again. But this is a great story. A very generous individual. These are great organizations who are benefiting from this in a series of bequests. But should it have been a surprise? And even to a certain extent, does treating these gifts like surprises, undermined fundraisers and put them in a difficult position? Interesting. Alright, let CZ fill in a little bit. So he was a social worker in Washington state. His is final annual salary was something like sixty three thousand dollars a year. But he had earned a lot of money in banking and inherited a lot of money. Millions. But he had like a thirty year career in social work. He had left banking long before he died. Died young sixty to sixty three. Something like that. Live three sixty three live very frugally. They one of the one of the articles, said that he wore shoes that were held together with duct tape warrant drove a gel A peak are, uh, shopped in thrift shops. You get the idea. And then when he died, he had eleven million dollars to distribute and he gave it to, I don’t know, five charities or so something like that gave it all away. Never had children, never married. And you felt that those enormous planned gif ts shouldn’t have been a surprise. Ah, no, I wasn’t. I wasn’t sure I agreed with you, but let’s see why now we’re going now, now we’re off the twitter. We get a chance to get her off. The Twitter were talking and realize. Andi, you nailed the overarching story, and this is typically the overarching story and a lot of these. The stories you see in the news right? Frugal, individual, relatively low annual income, but makes a significant gift, and it surprises people. But I started to dig into the details because the details matter. And as you noted, you know, he was He worked it er in the state of Washington, Department of Social and Health Services for a number of years, and you win come around sixty three k. He You know, it was noted to be a very frugal individual, but there’s a some other details that come up to, for example, yes, go ahead. I left off the GIF ts. Yeah, yeah, well, he had inherited, you know, several million dollars previously from his parents when they were two seams. Um, and then if you start to look through the types of organizations that he made gifts, too, it makes sense. There’s a lot of affinity there, right? At least nine to ten organizations that he made terrible gifts to do. Almost all of them are related. Thio children’s charities or charities help benefit either low income families or children. Children with disabilities. His brother was disabled, so that was another thing that influenced his giving. You put those those things together and the picture starts to emerge. That’s a little bit a little bit clear. I think the other thing that’s worth noting is, um, for at least two of the organizations that he made a significant bequest to he made previously made a pretty large donation. So one organization in Washington pediatric Interim Care Center, he had made a ten thousand dollars online gift to that organization prior to a two and a half million dollars a request. And another organization, Tree House, which is a foster care group. We know from his background that he was involved in Mr Care programs. He made a five thousand dollars one time get to the organization before a nine hundred thousand dollar bequest. So again, not exactly out of thin air. Not a complete surprise. And a lot of the things that noted here, in terms of the income range and other things, actually do match up to what we see and other types of plan giving. Okay, we got We got to take our first break. Steve, Hold that. Of course, we’ll get right back. Teo. Mr. Nayman story Pursuant their newest free E book, The Art of First Impressions. It’s donor acquisition. To attract new donors, you make a smashing first impression. How do you do that? The book has the six guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy, including how to identify your your unique value. It’s got creative tips as well. You’ll find it at Tony dahna slash pursuant. You need that capital P for, please. All right, now, let’s go back to what is the day to divulge Steve, all right, And and one of those GIF TS was so large that the organs to the ten thousand dollar gift online was so large that the organization called to make sure that he had putting the right number of zeroes, that he didn’t intend at one hundred or thousand dollar gift. And he confirmed for them before they process the transactions, whatever that that it was indeed, a ten thousand dollar gift. So so that gift was a huge outlier for them, as were the other gifts that he made. But all right, so so now to those organizations, though. So were you saying that those organizations that got those huge gifts out of the blue and they came just a couple of months before he died. Were you saying that those organizations should have known? No. You couldn’t be saying that that there was a large that there would be a bequest for them, but or or just that. They should have paid more attention to him and possibly found out about his other intent engines. I think it’s the ladder, right? Obviously, if you have a gift of that amount and and a typical fund-raising programs, I think you would make certain assumptions about the type of stewardship and cultivation that would result from a gift of that level, even if it was an outlier. Or maybe especially because it’s an outlier and a a typical, Um, I think the other part two is, and you know this because you’ve got a lot of history and background plan giving that there’s a lot of myths about plan giving. You know the reality is a significant amount of plan. Gifts du come from individuals with lower income. You know, I think one of the study’s it’s reported, is the median annual income for the Quest. Commitment is only sixty thousand dollars a year. That totally falls in the rains we’re talking about here. I think there’s, you know, there’s the other myth that young people don’t make the quest. Uh, it’s on ly older donors will again data shows that that’s not true. If we look at it, donors who make decisions about their bequests commitment between the ages of forty and fifty four, there’s sixty percent of your best prospects. Maria, if you wait until people are sixty and seventy and older, um, that’s actually a much smaller pool of your best prospects. Your best prospects for plan giving and, in particular bequest krauz. Um, that’s where ninety percent of playing gifts come from, not from terrible gift annuities or crux and crack right overwhelm our request. Overwhelming because there are people who are forty to fifty four on. I think people may just not realise that that’s what the data shows. Okay, that’s interesting. My my concern about soliciting the bequests at younger ages on DH Interesting. And a lot of times I started fifty five. So we’re gonna have an interesting, robust conversation here. My concern about younger folks and I’ve even seen marketing or, um, articles. That’s a hard word from articles Yes, I’ve read read so infrequently that the word articles is difficult for me. I’ve read that, you know, there are There are some companies that are recommending promoting plan gives to people in their thirties even. But let’s stick with what you said forty to fifty four. My concern is that, you know, and and and we know that the last will is done like two, two and a half to three years before death, on average, on average. That’s what my concern is that that organization that puts you that you put in there will or that you that it gets put in the will at forty or forty five or fifty isn’t going to last until until death at in the eighties and nineties. And of course, longevity is getting getting hyre because life, circumstances change and the organizations that were important important enough to put in the will. And I’m I’m sure we agree that that’s a big step when you put an organization alongside your your husband, your wife, your children. That’s a huge step to put in organization in your will. But but even the organizations that are love that much in the forties and early fifties. I’m questioning whether those organizations are still going to be loved enough when that last will on average, gets done two years, but two and a half to three years before death. When the people are in their eighties and nineties, what do you think? So let’s let’s pretend that’s true. Boo. Then who’s the burden on? And I would say in that scenario the burden that is on the non-profit organization to continue Tio Stuart and move along that relationship so that you when that commitment you made of that decision you made when you were in your forties in your fifties when you’re in your seventies or eighties? Obviously, yes, people, people change their minds. People change decisions about there planning, but all of those decisions are influenced by something. And is it possible that in your forties and fifties you’d plan tto leave a portion of your estate to charity A And later on, you decide to charity B? Sure, I would say that’s just the same. Is it what you would see happen in principle or major E-giving or even other e-giving? Certainly, we know that donors change their minds about where they give and and how they give. Um plan giving isn’t isn’t immune to that. It doesn’t suspend those laws. Sure. Fund-raising and dahna behavior we already know. Yeah. All right. Well, um, stewardship. That’s a that’s a long time to Steward. Um All right. You make you make a good point. It is, right. I mean, I think we all recognize that zoho talk about a plan gift. A plan gift is usually a major gift. It’s just deferred, right. The difference is about the timing. You know? Am I making that gift today? Because I have liquidity, and I can make that significant gift today. Or is it differed because I want to make this gift, But But, you know, uh, until I passed away or something happens, I’m not able to make that gift, you know, timing different. So we’re, you know, we’re disagreeing about We’re just agreeing about roughly fifteen years because you you said forty to fifty four is the sweet spot, right? Did you have When where your best prospects are? Best way our people start subject. These types of initial decisions, you say forty, forty to fifty for that. That right? Forty to fifty for about six? Yeah. About sixty percent of all your best prospects are in that age range. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because then it goes down from there. All right, All right. Because I typically start marketing around age fifty five for charities that have age a lot a lot. Don’t. Um yeah. All right. That’s all right. So we’re talking about fifteen years, Mohr, you know, ten, fifteen years Mohr of stewardship. Um, all right. I’ll I’ll take it in to take it under advisement. I I still am concerned that the lives are going to change in the and and the importance of the charities. You know, other things are gonna happen in life that are going toe elevate other charities. Now, you would say, Well, they might get at it, but that doesn’t mean that the initial one’s going to be subtracted. Granted. Okay, No, uh, take it under advisement. You’re Yeah. Okay. Okay. So the lesson for for these Washington say charities that had these windfalls was had they started the Mr name. And after he made his lifetime gif ts that we’re way off the charts for the for these charities, the one even questioning the amount it was so large online they might have learned about his intentions by Will is that is that Is that where you’re you’re going with that? I think so. I think also, it’s there’s a cautionary tale here that if we believe that these significant types of gifts are just going to appear out of nowhere that, in fact, there’s nothing as a fundraiser or is an executive director Seo over Non-profit Aiken dio. I’m almost it’s almost down to pure lock on, and I would reject that. It’s pure luck, I agree. But it is. You can start to plan for this. You can identify people with a higher likelihood. Ah, hyre inclination to make these types of gifts. And in fact, I think, you know, we’ve talked about this on Twitter and other places. Playing giving is a huge untapped opportunity. Yeah, and so so don’t think of it is magical or luck. Think of it as a huge untapped opportunity that you can build into your PA programs and be successful. But you gotta put the time and effort into it as well. Absolutely agree. Reject that notion of its just a windfall. They just happen magically. You can look at data you can look. Att Yeah, your data data you have on giving history and identify your best plan giving prospects irrespective of age. They they might even end up being in their forties, and you don’t know it because you don’t have A, um you’ll have a gin, your file on DH? Yeah, absolutely ages Only one part of it. I think when we look ATT plan giving likelihood things in the data that make that bubble up the top are certainly, you know, things like wealth and assets, but things like church attendance, loyalty to a cause. Another thing that we found in the past with predictive modeling is if those individuals are more civically involved, they they donate to a political campaign so they donate to things in their state local area. Another big factor is lack of living children. And that certainly played out Alan Damon’s case. He had no, wasn’t married, had no children. We see that all the time and plan giving, and it could be, you know, those children are older or they had no children. Those are all factors. It certainly isn’t just all down to age, and that’s a great point. And and for smaller organizations, because our our audience is small and midsize. However you define that I don’t. I never put any definitions or boundaries around that. A lot of what you’re getting at is going to be findable by meeting people and talking to them in terms of civic engagement. Ah, marital status, children, ages of children if they have them. So they volunteered your organization, factors like that. You, Khun, quickly get Teo. Well, that one. You’ll have that when you’ll know I’m I’m suggesting that a lot of what you were describing you wouldn’t be a smaller midsize shop, wouldn’t be able to find unless they were meeting unless they were talking to people. Or is that an out of date? Am I by a dinosaur? And that’s anachronistic opinion. I mean, I think that world is changing, and I think, you know, in the next couple of years, let’s just say for the next decade I think that’s going to change a lot, or, in fact, needs to change a lot way. Topic comes up all the time. We talk about organizations in their use of data. There’s a tendency to think of a smaller How does this data benefit of smaller organization and and a lot of cases, you know, if your ah if you’re a two million dollar or one million dollar non-profit organization, if you miss out on a big opportunity, there’s a significant impact there. If you raised sixty million dollars a year and you miss out on one or two opportunities, it has less impact so that the data actually becomes, you know, very valuable for mid size, smaller organizations to so, But I wantto get to some of the data points that you mentioned, Um, that that I was suggesting you you’d only learn if you talk to somebody. Like like, civic engagement, number of children not volunteering because you would know. You know, your volunteers are on DH. You rattled off a couple of others? I don’t remember, But it was occurring to me that you’d only find those out through conversations. But are you saying that databases are evolving? That would help us find this out without having to meet somebody? Yeah. I mean, a lot of these, a lot of these data elements or even models you would do our things that that non-profit organization’s been doing for, you know, probably twenty years. It’s just becoming Mohr wide spread and common as the cost of doing that continues to get lower and the value that people are realizing from it. Okay, okay. And, you know, you could also Yeah, the true enough. I mean, you can yeah, mining, no mining the social networks. They’re there cos that will do that for you. For your file. Blackbaud is probably one of them. I mean, you can do. Do you have that capability? Yes. Certainly. One of the things that we do with our customers as we have the ability to upend these types of data elements to a file. But actually, what’s more common is organizations ask us tow, screen their donors and identify people who have a major gift likelihood or a plain gift likelihood or an annual gift likelihood because you’re you also start to quickly drift into. I want to understand all the donors or potential supporters I have, and some are a better fit for different types. Of programs and others. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Uh, the Well, that’s the data accessibility that a lot a lot of people fear, but it exists on DH. If it’s there and you can use it for the benefit of your fund-raising, you might as well. All right. Um, absolutely. You want to talk about a little about digital? What? What? What’s on your mind about digital online? Fund-raising I have a lot on my mind about digital way. Just have an hour. Yeah. Sorry. I think the big thing is I recently wrote something about the fact that online giving it’s been around for twenty years. Now, that’s a long time. And yet a lot of the current perception or continued perception the sector is online. Is this new thing? No, it’s not. I mean, it’s a twenty year old. It’s moved out of the house. It’s grown up, uh, you know, and I think that’s going to call call into question. How long do we persist? Thinking about online is a totally separate animal from the rest of Fund-raising. When the reality is, it’s just a channel, right? It’s like direct mail. It’s like phone. It’s like street canvassing. It’s like events. It’s you know, it’s like, you know, we used to have basic cable and then we got all the advanced, you know, channels on cable. That’s what digital has brought us. But there’s still a lot of thinking about it. It’s a separate thing. We should think about it separately. I think now that we’re twenty years into this, we probably need Teo evolve our thinking and think about, you know, if we thought the last twenty years brought a lot of change. The next twenty is going to bring a really transformative change in a lot of ways. So the the online giving is still under ten percent. You’re the charitable giving reports puts it at eight and a half percent is that I have the eight and a half percent but growing heimans madox people. It’s growing. That study has been steadily growing. Yeah, that shocks people. But it’s interesting. The U. S. Department of Commerce publishes the percentage of all retail sales that happened on the Internet, and that’s only nine point eight percent. So again, I don’t know. Everyone may think you buy everything from Amazon and you buy everything online. The reality is less than ten percent of retail is online and less than ten percent of Fund-raising is online and they’re actually tracking pretty close. That just tells us consumer donorsearch Hey, viewer had a lot of cross over. OK, absolutely true about the retail I would, I would have guessed, I don’t know, forty or something less than ten. Just under ten. Nine point eight percent of all retail sales in the point eight percent are online. Dang Alright, alright. I knew I was going to learn from This is a part of this too. And it brings up another interesting question. Which is how how you fund-raising is not the same as what you fund-raising so to me. The how you fund-raising what channels to use your running a direct mail program. Do you do events? Do you send email? But then there is what gets fund-raising taste. And there’s a crossover, right? So are you Are you raising money through a monthly giving program? Are you being an annual giving program? Do you have mid level giving Major e-giving plan giving on? And these things really blurred the lines right? You know we’re talking about the the exact example previously that individual made to online gifts, you know, in excess of several thousand dollars. That’s very common these days. So to me, that’s less about the fact that they made the gift online and has more to do with Where do they fit into your fund-raising program? Because in a lot of cases online, it is. It’s just convenient. Right is less friction. There’s less steps, but it doesn’t. And this is another point. I think that’s come up on social media in a lot of debates is, well, is. There’s also a tendency to think, um, we need to put all of our money into digital and stop putting money into the traditional Let’s just call it analog stuff, and I love digital. But that’s crazy. Like that’s a bad idea. I think what we find is you need to have a mix. You gotta virality You’ve got to be a multi challenge. It’s gotta be, Yeah, yeah, that’s on. That’s consistent with what so many guests have said about communications. You have to be multi-channel. Your fund-raising needs to be as well. What are the right? So what are the larger sources of If if online is just only eight and a half percent where The biggest too. So what’s the biggest two sources of of channel? Yeah, of individual Give? Yes. Channels. Yeah. I mean, it’s going to be, you know, direct mail. Still direct phone. Yeah. Face-to-face canvassing and then digital and within digital, you’re going tohave email. You’re going have online ads. You’re going tohave social media. I mean, there’s probably, you know, a two dozen channels that we could look at you and, you know, digital. Just one of them. Sure, sure, alright, but but so direct mail is still the number one. The greatest source of individual giving is still from direct mail. No, I would say you really looked at the numbers. You would find that it is the face-to-face, not canvassing face-to-face, but face-to-face, I’m gonna go sit Tony in your living room this afternoon, and we’re going to discuss that three million dollars gift, okay? Because the reality is, um if you look at a ball, all of fund-raising eighty two percent of all the revenue comes from twenty percent of donors and those air come from significant gifts. So if he really got down to ah, what channel or what type of interaction raises the most money, it’s going to Major, give fund-raising and those air face-to-face conversations. Okay? We’re not having a conversation about just what raises the most money. I think what we want to understand is what is the mix of channels, right? Oh, yeah. Wait, no. You gotta that first gift might because you saw an advertisement on NPR. Or you got something in the mail or you saw something on social media, and you develop that relationship over time, and it takes a lot of channels to get there, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I just, uh it seemed like a natural question. What is the largest. Steve. We’ve got to take a take a take another break. Okay, where you see Piela. They have an archive Webinar for you. Their accounting update. What has changed this year that Wagner knows categorically and you need to know just a skosh. New requirements for financial statements. For instance, that’s what the webinars about what’s new this year. You goto wagner cps dot com Click Resource is then Webinars. Now it’s time for Tony’s. Take two is next week. Act Blue and Non-profit Radio at the Non-profit Technology Conference in Portland, Oregon. ActBlue is our premiere sponsor at nineteen and TC. I hope you will come by booths five o eight and five ten where we are together in. In. If there is no five o nine in between us, that’s on five nines on the other side of the aisle. So we’re in a large booth together. Non-profit radio in ActBlue. Just just look for the booth with the bright studio lights, because I’m gonna be shooting video a cz. Well, as I’m capturing interviews for the coming months on the show, Act Blue is they’re talking about the power of small dollar donations. While I’m capturing interviews for now. I just said right this crap while I’m capturing you. Yeah. No shit. I just said that I need an intern. I am soliciting ob soliciting resumes for interns. So I have somebody to blame for this. Poor copy. Eso submit your resume Tonia tonia martignetti dot com And the next time there’s a mistaken my copy. You know that I will blame you so send your resume quickly. Alright, in the meantime? Um actblue Yes. You know them for their wildly popular on DH successful political grassroots fund-raising platform raised over three billion dollars. You can go to AC Blue and you can see the sea the counter. But now they want you to check out their platform and small dollar donation value for your organ. It’s no longer just for grassroots and political. So you do that a tony dot m a slash ActBlue. Come to the booth. Sabelo. Ah, the interview schedule. It’s completely booked. I’ve got thirty seven interviews in the two and a half days of NTC. Unbelievable. Non-profit radio, wildly popular. Last year. We had about eight or so empty slots this year. Not a single empty slot. I mean, we’re, you know, we’re taking bathroom breaks and lunch breaks, but thirty seven interviews come by. Come by. Say hello, Teo. Me and ActBlue. All right. That is Tony’s. Take two. Now, let’s get back to Steve McLaughlin. And what does the data divulge? You probably got a little more. Yes. You were just admonishing me for asking the question. About what? What What is the highest? What is the largest source of individual gifts? And I understand we’re not. We’re not. We’re not categorizing. One, two, three, four. The point is, you do need to be multi-channel, um, and and not not not focus on any anyone area. All right, so you got a little more you want to say in digital, I’m sure or on this on this subject, I mean, I think you’re spot on, you know, it’s got to be the multi-channel. I think the other thing that we’re learning is non-profits air starting to understand that it’s also the sequencing and those channels. I think if we look back ten or fifteen years from now, I think this is an area where artificial intelligence machine learning can really help. In some ways, which is understanding. What is the sequence of messaging? Is it? There’s a direct mail piece, followed by an email followed by an SMS message, followed by this followed by that followed by something that hasn’t been invented yet. That is the right sequence that drives donors to give or renew our whatever happens to be. And certainly I think another part worth noting is his mobile is part of this digital landscape. For a number of years, we’ve looked at the percentage of online donations that happen on a mobile device. Yes, in twenty eighteen, it was twenty four percent, right? So we’re done debating if mobile is a really important thing because it’s almost a quarter of all the online donations are happening on a mobile device, and that was only, like, nine percent a few years ago. So it’s that continues to grow. I think if you look put down the time Horizon Mobile has the potential to be one of the most transformative, um, elements of e-giving experience. Um, you know, there’s seven billion people on Planet Earth, and five billion of them have a mobile phone. There’s only like two and a half billion PCs. So mobile has a lot of potential. And you’ll see over time, e-giving will move the mobile. Um, a lot of these other type of non-profit interaction things will move to a mobile device. And I think a lot of ways that will help us get over our online versus offline hang up because a mobile devices, all those things in one, right? We don’t think about Oh, I’m online on my phone. No, You know, we just don’t think of it that way. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. So your point one, the points you made were past the debate whether you need to make sure that every page that you’re giving our all of that is mobile optimized that videos that your your videos you maybe sharing play, play properly on on, ah, a phone or a phone or a tablet. But you’re talking specifically about phones, so we’re we’re past all that you need to be one hundred percent mobile optimized, and so let’s so let’s talk some about sametz giving. What do we do? We know that specifically in terms of Is that the you don’t know? I’m asking a six different questions at one time. You’re stuck with me as a host. I’m sorry. There is. There is no other hosts non-profit radio, it’s me or dead air. So you’re stuck with me. Okay. The report says mobile donations, twenty four percent. Is that all SMS or no, That’s people going to a website and filling out an online form Ah, form on their phone. What is what’s in that? Twenty percent. Twenty four percent. We’re looking at donation to happen on a mobile device. We’re not looking at SMS SMS is interesting. Um, you know, there was a point in time several years ago where we saw SMS was going to be the new big thing and that turned out to not happen. I think it was the right medium, but the wrong method. So you know, two thousand ten was probably the big moment for text to give in the US there was the Haiti earthquake. There were tens of millions of dollars raised through SMS text to give. There was a lot of hype. Everyone said it’s all going to be text to give Ah and you fast forward to today And essentially that’s not what happened. What happened? Wass, Um we we were right about the medium that people would want to do something on a mobile device. But we were wrong about the method. Text to give was not going to be the method that people prefer to use for a lot of reasons. But really, what’s become sort of the most effective approaches when you optimize your website, your donation forms your email messages, your digital experience for mobile. Um people will give through that and and a significant portion, um, text to give. I don’t think it’s really, um, sort of panned out the way people thought. Now that’s not to say that SMS is a communication and an engagement tool hasn’t been successful. I think there’s a lot of examples of SMS being a good way to engage supporters, volunteers, activists. Um it’s just text to give, at least for the U. S. Um, I think it’s had its day and you’ll see the most of that just shifted people doing on a mobile device. Okay, interesting way. Have a sponsor text to give that well, not be happy to hear you’re and I’m sure they have a different take on this although they do mobile engagement also on DH there is that there is a lot I think is is do something. Are they the premier example of mobile text text, engagement? Do something dot or do something? There’s a lot there. Crisis text line right after them. The Lublin in the folks that crisis tech find right amazing stories of what? Sms from an engagement perspective and a programmatic perspective, they have some amazing work. They’ve done their, um, part of it. Just as would text to give one of the challenges. Is it’s? It’s a regulated industry. You got to deal with the telcos. Ah, the amount you Khun give is limited. Ah, all the rules around it are highly constrained. So would I rather get a one time, ten dollars text gift or what? I rather send them to my website? That’s optimized, and I get a twenty five dollars per month recurring gift or a thousand dollar gift. Um, you know, just some different things happening in that space, for sure. Okay, we got to take another break. Tell us. Can use more money needed to revenue sources. Stephen, I talkingabout multi-channel You get a long stream of passive revenue. This is passive revenue. When companies that you refer process their credit card transactions through, tell us, watch the video, then send these potential companies to watch the video. Could be trusty, local, local company that’s been supporting you. If they take credit cards, their their their prospects for this and you will get fifty percent of the fee of each transaction. That’s the long revenue stream. The video is that Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s. Now let’s go back to Steve McLachlan. Um, all right, so you know, we’ve got another twenty minutes or so. Roughly. Um, let’s talk a little about what you see. What your what your thoughts are around overall giving it’s up up a percent. A half in twenty. Eighteen. Um, And let’s talk about what you what you think is coming for twenty. Nineteen. That’s a wide open heart. Open topic. Yeah, well, first, I think we should note that despite the reports of the demise of Fund-raising Oh, yes, Yes. The reports were greatly exaggerated, right? You know, you You seen this over the past eighteen months? Eighteen months as much as anybody, right? Oh, the fund-raising. Is going to go down the tubes. The bottom is gonna fall out. Mass hysteria. Turns out in twenty eighteen. That didn’t happen. Way looked at about thirty two billion and fund-raising revenue across a wide range of organizations. And what we found with E-giving was up about one and a half percent on a year over year basis. And we actually took a step back and looked at a three year trend because a lot of stuff has happened in the past three years. And if you look at the three year trend, so twenty sixteen to twenty eighteen and you look at the same exact organizations and how they performed overall giving is up nine percent. Um, so I think that’s A positive one of things also tells us is that twenty seventeen was a much better year in terms of giving than what we may be thought a year ago, um and twenty eighteen was probably a return to more normal levels. Um, but I think most organizations would take nine percent over three years. And from a girl’s perspective now, help me understand this, Um, what’s the difference between the one and a half percent growth in overall and the and the nine percent? Sure. So, one half percent growth if we take the exact same non-profit organizations in twenty seventeen and we see how they performed in twenty, eighteen through one and a half percent here apples, apples, comparison. Um, but when you look at it over three years, you actually see it. It’s a nine percent growth rate. I think if anything that tells us, you know, twenty seventeen probably had a spike in giving caused by a multitude of factors the economy, uh, politics, lots of stuff. And maybe that got overlooked in a lot of the hysteria about what may or may not happen in giving in twenty eighteen. But overall, you know, growth is good. And certainly as we head into twenty nineteen. Um, we’re looking for some good news there, too. Okay. All right. See, So over three years, the growth was was nine percent. Um, so you’re you mentioned your charitable giving report Looks at about thirty two billion dollars in giving. Yeah, but total total individual giving is like, four hundred billion. So how total giving is about four hundred ten billion Total individual giving is what is it? Seventy percent of that. Okay, right. It’s a three quarter. It’s It’s usually three quarters of so, So so about three hundred billion. Um, so s So how do you answer the question? You’re looking at roughly ten percent of individual giving. Ifyou’re looking at thirty two billion and it’s three hundred billion total, How do you How do you respond if that za small percentage of total individual giving? So how do we know it’s representative of the whole? Well, you know, all data is only representative of itself not to get a topical right. Says that’s very esoteric. We’re looking at David and two billion dollars. That’s what happened for these organizations, I think one of the challenges. Um, no, one has all the data for the four hundred something billion dollars. Um, so if you’re looking to find the absolute number and all the data that doesn’t exist in one place, certainly what we tried to do with e-giving report on some of our researches, let’s try and have a very large, significant sample size. I’m not aware of anyone sample sizes larger and try and provide some insight and analysis there. That’s a interesting way I’ve touched on this from time to time through the years. Um, it’s related to the fact that we have to wait until June of each year when the giving us a report comes out to find out what the what the charitable giving was for the previous year. It just seems to me that in twenty nineteen, we shouldn’t have to wait six months on. I’m not, I guess. Well, I am implicitly imputing giving us a You know, there used to be the atlas of giving and Rob Mitchell was on the show a number of times. They had an algorithm that that they said was nineteen, ninety nine or ninety eight or ninety nine percent predictive. When you look back based on all kinds of econometric variables that they said they could predict. And then they change it every month. They could look, he didn’t call them predictions that could forecast he didn’t like the word predictions. It could forecast the future with these with these econometric variables, but that the, uh, the the atlas of giving no longer exists that it didn’t didn’t prevail. I don’t know. It’s just we don’t have a good measure. No one does have all the data. Why? Why do we have to wait six months? Made this twenty nineteen and we were just with all the with all the technology we have access to data. Why do we have to wait six months to know what happened in the previous year? You’re that your data scientist? Help me understand. Why is this so hard? Why can’t someone? Why can’t someone tackle this so that within a couple of weeks we know what happened in the previous year? Boy, do I want to get into this one way? Got about ten minutes left, so go ahead. Uh, well, I think a couple of things. One, Certainly. You know, my perspective is that what giving USA produces and what they’ve done for fifty plus years is is really valuable to the sector because it’s a lot of deep research in tow into the data and what’s happening and trends. But like anything, any benchmark, any report, I think we’ve got a really focus on How does it help? You know, what’s the point of it is that we wantto count how many billions were raised. I don’t think it’s necessarily that that makes for interesting headlines, but I think really, it’s about how do we make? How do we make that information actionable and in so many ways? I think what I continue to see is it’s really valuable for an organization, whether you’re one million dollars a year budget, human services organization or a fifty million dollar healthcare charity. You want this information, these insights because you want to be able to compare your performance to what else is happening in the sector, but probably more importantly, you want to be able to compare your performance to similar pierre organization, right? That’s how am I doing compared to others. And, you know, what is it that some of those organizations might be doing differently? That’s driving growth? Or am I outperforming them? And that’s useful to know? Yeah, I agree with all that, of course, that there is value. But why do we have to wait six months? That’s a long time. Six months is a long time to know what’s actionable from the previous year. Were you? Do you Do you remember the atlas of giving you? Are you familiar with what that was? I’m familiar with it. Yeah. Okay. Um, what did you think of Atlas of giving you can You’re free to disagree, Rob Mitchell Will doesn’t. Nobody listens to this show, so don’t worry about it. I’m starting to think that they had built some sort of black box. Proprietary forecast, right models, right? What was happening with e-giving? Um, that changed, uh, with a lot of frequency. Well, they don’t know. They updated the therefore decided it wasn’t That wasn’t a valuable, useful thing to have. Maybe. Yeah. I don’t know if it was the market or the marketing. You know, I was a small, a small company. Um, I have a background in economics, and I I, uh I mean, I wasn’t privy to their to their algorithm, but okay, s so I I used to lean toward that, basically, but it didn’t. It didn’t succeed. For whatever reason again, I think a lot of that is there was a small business and they were up against e-giving Yusa, which does have Ah, long history, like you said, fifty years. Okay, I don’t I’m not cutting off the topic. Steve Matlock, and we’ll go right back to it. You could respond to exactly right back to what I just said, but I got to take care of our sponsors. Last break is the last break. Text to give can use more, uh, more money, more engagement. You need a new revenue source. This is another way we’re talking multi-channel mobile giving. I know we just talked about it with Steve, but, uh, text to give is more than just mobile giving. It’s also mobile engagement. Um, but with their emphasising, is there five part email? Many course tto learn more about what they’re doing. It’s five e mails and the weight to get into the email. Many course is you text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Now, we’ve got several more minutes for what does the day to divulge? Um, okay, Um all right. Anything? What do you want to say? Anything. Response to what I was just saying you know again? I mean, I think any of these reports, anything analysis stuff we should always go back to. How can an non-profit apply it to what they’re doing? I think in the case of giving you say, they’re tryingto bring together a lot of data. Some of it is economic data, you know is, you know, when you’re tryingto forecast or predict what happened, it’s partially based on there’s IRS data. There’s economic data. There’s a number of factors there. I would say, You know, we sort of on the blackbaud side, we differed e-giving Yusa to say how much was given and toe which type of organizations was given, too, because that is a complex undertaking of which durney you know, that’s not our not our focus. We’re sort of Mohr interested in trying to understand things that a at a different level on more about what the trends are than the actual dollars. But then giving us a doesn’t even give us a forecast. I mean, they they say some generalities like the political environment and climate change, and so societal factors and the metoo movement, you know, will impact e-giving. But but they don’t, They don’t They don’t have any numbers along with their forecast. Uh, I mean, they don’t have any. Numerical forecast is what I mean. It sounds like you’ve got some topics and potential guests for your next show. Them. Well, you could be one of them, but yeah, but But nobody’s got the Why does it take? Why does it take six months? This’s twenty nineteen, for God’s sake. I just don’t understand why it takes six months to get the previous. All right, It seems to me we should be able to have it in, like, two weeks. Your data scientist, To prove me wrong, I I would defer to them. Uh, probably blackbaud should do it. You should take it on. You could do it in six weeks. You could beat them all right, Until I just I uninformed opinion, but I think it’s I think it’s doable. Maybe uninformed, but it’s still valid. It’s complete contradiction. All right, um all right. What do you What do you want to say about about About the future. I’ll get off the, uh, donor advised funds. Okay? And we talk about that once We got a couple, you just have a couple minutes left. Sure. What about them? They’re growing well. You know. They’re growing, I think. The Chronicle Plan B is noted that five of the top ten charities in the US or now don’t advise funds. You’re seeing a lot of growth there. I know there’s been a lot of talk about tax law changes, but it’s worth noting none of that tax law changes impacts dahna advice funds. So, you know, I think you’re going to continue to see them grow. I think you’re going to see the thresholds on those donorsearch vice fund start to move down. You know, it’s not going to be that I have to make a five or a ten thousand dollar gift to start one. You’re going to see those things lower. Um, I think it’s going to be part of a bigger part of giving, which is is different, right? You know, it’s not going to be, you know, certainly we track giving two foundations, but we don’t look at that in terms of the growth of giving, because it’s a bit of an intermediary in some cases. But I think you’re going to see dahna advice. One’s continued to grow uh, continue to be a bigger share of ware. Charitable giving goes on, and nonprofit organizations are gonna have to get better it both engaging with donors and educating them about, Hey, hey, it’s okay if you choose to use a donor advised fund, but but here’s how you can use that to help continue to give their organization and do things. And I think that’s that’s sort of the new reality. Like we talked about Mobile, the new normal dahna advice funds are here. They’re not going anywhere. They will only continue to get bigger. And that’s a part that fundraisers and and non-profit leaders need to pay attention to. That’s a great topic. I hosted a panel on the foundations at the foundation center, and we aired it here. Dahna advice. Funds are you know they’re a source of frustration for not for charities, starting with the fact that sometimes they don’t know who the gift is from the Schwab or the or the Fidelity. You know, I won’t tell them Yeah. I mean, I think it’s certainly create some frustration on the part of non-profits, but I think it’s not going away. Yeah. So how does he adapt to it? Um, you know, there’s probably a whole set of best practices that certain organizations have learned to embrace that, um, you know, that type of approach and again from a tax law perspective or some other other types of things, uh, they don’t really impact recover What donorsearch vice funds or doing? It’ll also be interesting to see what donorsearch vice funds due to, um, private foundations. What does it mean for local community foundations? Who who in some cases, do run their own donor advised funds as well? That’s a whole interesting ecosystem. Well, yeah, I mean, you could Well, I think of dahna advice funds, as the modest income persons foundation mean, I got it, you know, And and I I hear your point. The thresholds will will come down. You believe that? Sounds very very likely. So let’s say, you know, But for a thousand five thousand dollars, I can have a private foundation through a donor advice. I’m going to put the money in, and I and my kids, if I had kids could decide where, where, where, where and when to make those. And I don’t have the five percent spend requirement that private foundations have. All right. I guess I didn’t mean Teo. I’ll give you the last word. You’re the guest, but we do have to wrap up. So So give up. Give us a thirty second rap thirty second rap again. I think there’s a lot of positive trends in terms of e-giving what we’re seeing with digital, but ultimately it still comes back to How are we engaging with donors? How we steward that starting them. Um, how are we showing the impact that they have, Like all those, uh, basic bread and butter blocking and tackling. Insert your analogy here. Those are replaced by technology or anything else. You still have to do those things and the organizations that do those things well, the ones that will continue to grow and do more amazing work in the world. Steve McLachlan, He’s vice president of Data and Analytics at Blackbaud. You should follow the guy’s. Very smart. Very smart. Uh, at S McLachlan. It’s m a C Lachlan. Okay, at S McLaughlin on the companies that blackbaud dot com. Steve, thank you so much. Thanks for coming back. Great. Thanks, Tony. Real pleasure. Next week it is Jason Lewis and the War for Fund-raising talent. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, Find it on tony martignetti dot com. Responsive by pursuant online tools. Here’s where the music cue the music. Chris Care is responsive by pursuing. Oh, no, that’s my mistake. Now you don’t okay, turn the music down. That was Tony martignetti mistakes. You’re stuck with this host up there, but I’m the only one. Chris is doing the show perfectly, and I just screwed him up. 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