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Nonprofit Radio for September 11, 2023: Donor Retention

 

Dennis Fois: Donor Retention

The challenges are real and widespread: Aging donors; smaller gifts; and abysmal retention rates. Dennis Fois brings strategies and tactics to raise your consciousness and turn things around. Let’s talk about emotional connections, multithreading, and multichannel, just for starters. He’s CEO of Bloomerang.

 

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[00:00:35.77] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I am your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be hit with Bera France if you lit me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show, Kate, our associate producer. What is up this week?

[00:01:10.67] spk_1:
Hey, tony, it’s donor retention. The challenges are real and widespread aging donors, smaller gifts and abysmal retention rates. Dennis Fo brings strategies and tactics to raise their consciousness and turn things around. Let’s talk about emotional connections, multi threading and being multichannel just for starters. He is CEO of Boomerang on Tony’s take two.

[00:01:13.14] spk_0:
It’s September 11th

[00:01:46.46] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraiser CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is donor retention.

[00:02:14.42] spk_0:
It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome Dennis Fo to nonprofit radio. He is CEO of Blue Marang. He’s had a broad international career spanning more than 25 years developing and leading high performing multicultural teams in the technology, customer experience, relationship management and financial services sectors. He’s on linkedin and the company is at Boomerang dot Co, Dennis Fois. Welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:23.67] spk_2:
Thanks very much for having me on tony.

[00:02:25.64] spk_0:
Pleasure. Pleasure. And uh where are you uh speaking

[00:02:28.54] spk_2:
from? I’m speaking from Carmel in California.

[00:02:35.88] spk_0:
Carmel, California. All right. Uh And the, the, the business is in Indianapolis, is that right?

[00:02:58.75] spk_2:
Originally started in Indie? And um as I think a lot of uh technology companies post pandemic has ended up all over the place. So we are very much scattered around the US. We are remote. So most of our employees work from home and then we, we work together, uh when we meet, we have events around that. But uh I want to mention about 30% of our employees in India and the rest outside of India nowadays. Ok.

[00:03:08.92] spk_0:
Ok. And it sounds like you’re intentional about getting the team together in person. Is that you, you find that, uh we, we’re, we’re digressing from our main topic. But, uh I’m, I’m, I’m interested and I think listeners are too. You, you, you find that important for uh for a uh a virtual team,

[00:05:30.12] spk_2:
super important. And I think um you have to be very intentional, deliberate about it. I, I mean, I’m one of those people that um as we all went into the pandemic and we had to do certain things that were just basically necessary. I did want to take some learning side of it because we did learn a lot. I, you know, I, I was an office rat before the pandemic or first in, first, last out and I sort of noticed a few things during the pandemic. They were actually very pleasurable and I think it doesn’t work for every company. But if you take, take hours, for instance, we work for small to midsize nonprofit organizations all around the US, what’s really cool is is that if you have your employees all around the US, you can actually give some time for employees to do something locally and that opens doors so you can create a better connection. We now have employees everywhere. So if there’s a customer, you know, I’ve, I’ve got customers here in Carmel. I did, I didn’t know that. So now we can connect, we can meet for a coffee. I can do. So I’m actually volunteering some with a local dog rescue. So it creates this sort of more emotional connections. Folks can pick up their Children from school. It’s a, it’s a, it adds an interesting layer to your company that in my opinion, can create a deeper connection with employees and potentially higher retention rate. So I’m not, you know, there is a, there is a shrewd business side to this too, right? Um And that is that employee, we talk about donor attention to the employee retention is a topic too. And um uh embracing some of the learnings that we’ve taken away rather than going back to an old model. Seems to me, uh it feels like the right thing to do. So we, we’re, we’re making it work. But yes, you absolutely have to be very intense about uh when you get together and what, then you shouldn’t be staring at presentations that you need to make it about human connection. And uh and that requires a lot of thinking. Um So it’s not because we don’t really have a good model uh where we, where we can learn from each other. So we, we’re figuring it out. Yeah,

[00:05:34.13] spk_0:
we’re working it out and you’re, I, I understand intentional and it’s worth investing in clearly,

[00:05:39.39] spk_2:
for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[00:06:20.36] spk_0:
All right. All right. So, thank you a little digression. Uh But as you said, yeah, we’re, we’re here to talk about uh donor retention. Uh What? Uh Well, II, I think it’s pretty widely known that we’re doing quite poorly as a sector in donor retention. Uh It’s 75% or so of one first time donors are, are lost after, after that first gift, which is abysmal. I mean, it’s un it’s, to me it’s unsustainable and unless, unless you have an enormous acquisition pipeline which you’re spending a lot of money on, which is quite a bit more expensive than retaining, uh, it, it seems unsustainable but, but it, but our, I, I’ll call it, our donor mortality rate continues to be very bad.

[00:10:01.84] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, um, if this was a business, we would be out of business. Right. Um, I agree with you entirely. The statistics are a little paralyzing at times I feel and, um, I would say, and sometimes there’s a lot of uh sort of negative communication around it. Some folks getting, getting very stressful about it, I would say in part, it’s also down to uh execution, right? Uh So what I mean is if you see uh your organization in 11 half of the organization about is about heart is what you care about what you’re passionate about. But the other part of it is the the brain part is where you do need to run it as an organization and what we are seeing a fair amount of in the small to mid size, say from 250 K to 25 up to 25 million. That is, it’s, it’s, it’s really not really approached and run like a business, you know, as a business, the moment you’ve acquired your first customer, this is the first donation, you, you be Fighting Tooth for Nail to retain that customer. We all, we all know that it’s much cheaper to retain existing customers. So, so it’s, it’s bizarre to see but, but then I started sort of digging in because, uh, you know, you get, you get to, uh, you get to ask why, well, why, why is it? It’s not that it’s been 30% that it’s 70% now, it’s been structurally like this for a very, very long time, you know, that better than I do even. And so why, why is that? And we don’t really have great answers. But for me, it comes down to a lack of establishment of emotional connection. I think that ultimately why most of us give is because there’s a level of feeling associated to it. It’s not a transaction for most people to donate. Whether it’s a small donation, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a feeling whether it’s a feeling to make yourself feel good or whether it’s a uh altruistic Phil philanthropy, what whatever the feeling is, it’s about feeling. And when you think about that, you and then you ask yourself and say, ok, what am I doing to, to help that person get more connected to my organization? That’s where it starts to unravel real quick. So, capital campaigns are about transactions and numbers. Um when we, and, and it’s very knee jerky. You know, when we, when the numbers are low low, we’ll run a big campaign and it feels a little bit like a transactional approach. Well, thanks very much. Our course was to raise so many thousands. We did it, we did the sele, but we’re forgetting the basics. Let me give you one which I found shocking statistic you and I experience this. You’d think that saying thank you when somebody’s donated would be pretty common practice, right? So I’ve just donated in whatever form I’m receiving some form of. Thank you. I’m not even talking about the most impactful way of doing it. I’m just talking about. Thank you in a way, an email, whatever it, when you look at it, the statistics are pretty bad. So we, we, we, we look at this because we, we work with our prospects and customers about how, where can we improve some things if I give you sort of an aggregate number saying thank you within say the first two weeks of a donation happens in less than 13% of cases. No, 13

[00:10:07.11] spk_0:
what two weeks? It’s supposed to be 24 hours, 24 hours for a perfunctory and then maybe there’s a follow up, you know, I like to see a follow up call or a handwritten note or something, but the perfunctory should be 24 hours and you’re saying two weeks and it’s 2 13%

[00:11:15.01] spk_2:
13, 13. And then if we lengthen the time to 30 days, at which point, I don’t even remember what I’ve done to be honest with you, but then that number goes up to 18% 18. So it’s, it’s a crazy number if you think about if you set that number up against 75% 1st time donor retention rate issues, right? And you say, say, but we never say thank you to me, rather than looking at really structural societal, economic reasons for why things are the way they are, we should really start to look at, are we doing absolutely everything we can to establish an emotional connection? And frankly, if you miss a thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It sort of feels like you’re, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve got a, you had a false start, right? Yeah. Now

[00:11:35.34] spk_0:
you’ve, you’ve, you’ve blown the, you’ve blown the opportunity if, if, if you’re responding with a, a even a perfunctory. Thank you. As I said, I’d like to see 24 hours but within 48 hours that you’re going out to two weeks and it’s only 13%. Uh, and what, what is, what is that? I’ve never heard it that low. That awful, what, what is that based on that? That’s boomerang clients. Yeah,

[00:12:48.42] spk_2:
we look at and prospects. So we, we, we, um, uh, I, I’ll give, I gave you sort of an aggregate number. Some folks are much better, better at it than others, but you’d be surprised. It’s certainly not in the, it’s never in the high 80% or something like that you’d be. And there’s always a reason why people say I didn’t have whatever address or there’s always some reason, but there’s also no reason because if you and I would be running a business, there’s always a way to say thank you to someone. Right. So, so it, it feels to me, uh, there’s plenty of, you know, hurdles that we can keep up with. I didn’t have the right email address, didn’t have the right phone number or something happened. I didn’t do it, whatever, but it’s structurally super bad and it’s always in the low single digit percentage across the board. In fact, we often, um, engage with prospects like that when we look at sort of, uh, they might have other systems or other tactics and as they’re looking for another system, they want to also improve the processes. Right? And we often do these sort of assessments where we, um, uh, that’s what we do. We actually make small donations on behalf of us and we should see we track what, what happens and that’s, that’s how we get that information. And, uh,

[00:13:14.60] spk_0:
if you, if you’re not responding within 24 hours, I think it looks like you just don’t care. Right. Talk about grabbing someone from the heart first, you know, to, to give them a feeling, AAA warm feeling anything more than 24 hours. Looks like your gift doesn’t really mean too much to us. In 30 days. 30 you may as well not, I don’t know. To me after two weeks, you might not even bother it. You’ve already, you’ve already blown the relationship unless I don’t know unless you call with, uh, uh, some kind of catastrophic story, uh you know, which is not, not likely, uh you’ve blown it, you’ve blown the opportunity.

[00:15:41.99] spk_2:
Yeah, completely. And, and, and we often get uh a little bit of setback when you sort of look at and say, hey, am I supposed to say thank you? Like do I, what, what does it matter if I say automated email, for instance, as a thank you to everyone that’s not very personal, it’s not very emotional. And I agree. But if you start by saying thank you to your first time donors and have different means to engage with your retained donors, that would be a good start. You can’t tell me that you, you have so many first time donors that you can’t deal with the volume like that. That seems, that seems like a that’s a very high bar to achieve. That’s not what we are seeing, right? So I think if you just narrow it down and say just hit the notes I had um I wasn’t, I had a, a charity rally where we had sort of a thing with old cars and this was to support a local dog rescue. And uh we did a bunch of things like auctions and stuff like that and we made a donation and it was so amazing that the following day um I got a voice mail so they didn’t get with me, but that voicemail was fantastic. It was just a voice mail from the executive director and it was just like, it was just a, a very nice warm, I heard the voice. It made me feel super good. I thought I did the right thing and, um, and now there was a, you know, a typical newsletter that follows. So I actually read that newsletter now. Right, because I’m, I’ve got something there. Actually, I love that lady. I love how passionate she is about making sure that these dogs end up in the right homes and how deliberate she is about all of that. Um And she’s, she’s got me like they’ve got me, I want to do more and, and I thought it was as simple as just dropping me in a a voicemail. She didn’t even try to call me. It was just a voicemail straight into my inbox, but because it was a voicemail and not an email, it was much more personal and I’m pretty sure that day maybe from that event, let’s just be generous. Say that she had five or six new donors, right? New first I done this. Is it really that hard to to send five? Thank you. Um I don’t know, seems like it seems like it’s doable.

[00:15:45.98] spk_0:
Now. You, you’ve mentioned this dog rescue uh a couple of times now. So why don’t you shout them out properly? No, I

[00:15:50.85] spk_2:
can’t. I can’t because this built a pool. They,

[00:15:57.27] spk_0:
they, they all right, you’re a big, you’re such a big dog lover. You can’t shout out to you. All right. All right. All right. Well, we know we

[00:16:03.26] spk_2:
have the opportunity though, tony, but I think I’m gonna get it. Um I’m gonna get it wrong somewhere with someone. It’s a very

[00:16:10.28] spk_0:
small town, right? We know we have a dog

[00:16:46.14] spk_1:
lover. It’s time for a break. Donor box, quote, donor box text to give led to one of our more successful fundraising events, a concert sharing the keyword short code and scannable QR code made giving easy for our supporters. And they did give that’s from Josh Young executive director of hydrating Humanity Donor Boxx, helping you help others donor Boxx dot org. Now back to donor retention.

[00:17:09.28] spk_0:
So in with automation, I mean, this, you give a gift, you have to provide an email address and and or a phone number so you can send them an email or a text again, this perfunctory, you know, within 24 hours. I I just don’t see any reason why with, with automation that are pretty standard, right? And you should be able to send an immediate

[00:20:01.36] spk_2:
technology problem. It’s not a technology problem. There are no technological hurdles here. I mean, systems might be difficult to use and what have you but you can, it’s not rocket science. Once you’ve done it, once you can, you can figure it out that I think the, you know what it’s the way I think about it, which is fascinating. I think we have three big challenges that we need to think through. They’re gonna be pretty structural. We’ve got aging donors, we’ve got declining small donations. So from uh gifts up to $100 and from 100 to $500 are down across the board and we have a very hard time retaining first time donors. Those are the three like big uh themes if you can call them that or headwinds, whatever you wanna call them that we need to think through. Ok, these are gonna be here for a while. How, how do I, how do I respond to those? Right. And the bizarre thing is that because we have aging donors, we need to think about our uh our donors as a whole. We need to think about. Ok, how do I tap into younger donors? How do I tap into, how do I broaden my connection to household and not have a singular donor within a household? So you need to think about that. And it’s remarkable then that when we’re presented an opportunity to have a first time donor that we would, we wouldn’t be obsessed about retaining these donors in some way either by and if and if the friction is around the donation, I’d rather take a small recurring donation over a haphazard first time donation. There’s a, a strategy too. So we have all the tools in place. It’s just that it’s almost like we are applying principles that we have. We, we, we’ve applied for years to today. But today things are really starting to accelerate. So when we think of don, you know, frankly dying donors uh and not being part of estate planning and such, we really need to think about tapping into different generationals. And now that generation uh you have then you have other questions which is, is email, the best medium, et cetera, et cetera. But um uh there is an amazing opportunity there in my opinion, to, to, to tap into because we are getting the first time donors in, we are getting them. So it’s not like the next generation is nonn generous. It’s quite the opposite. Actually, the generation that we all love to hate the Gen Z and the millennials are extraordinarily driven by impact and doing good for the world. They are probably one of the most in tune generation. We’re just not connecting with them and uh and their rotation rates will continue to show what they’re showing if applying these type of uh methods here. So it’s a, it’s a challenge.

[00:22:16.22] spk_0:
I, I wonder if some of the problem with connecting with the millennials and Gen Z is that the leadership are baby boomers and they’re not listening to their own millennial and Gen Z employees or the or they’re not even seeking the advice of those younger folks about how to, how to connect the younger donors again. Emotionally. I, I think, I think if you start with the heart the brain follows. So you had that heartfelt genuine sincere voicemail, just a voicemail and it, it, and it’s drawn you in and that’s so that’s an example. Um They’re so they’re not, they’re not taking the advice. And I think these boomers of which I’m one, a young one, a very, a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very young boomer, but I am just barely a baby boomer. You know, uh the generation is not taking the advice of younger folks, seeking the advice of younger folks, but how to connect with younger folks and that and that they are your future planned giving donors. Planned giving is what I do, fundraising consulting and strictly in planned giving. So if you wanna have that pipeline of long term, you know, the the ultimate, the ultimate gift for a lot of people is in their estate plan. If you want to benefit from that ultimate giving, you need to be treating these folks well from the, from the jump from that 1st 24 hours that we’re talking about and, and then beyond and you know, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve broadened beyond the, the the initial thank you. But um you know, that’s, I mean, that’s a again back to a business, I mean, that’s how a business maintains a, a pipeline of customers. But you know, you have, we have to have a pipeline of prospects right throughout the, throughout the age spectrum, throughout on all the different ways of giving monthly sustainer and major and people give just once uh once a year or, or give just to a particular program, just give around the gala. If, if we’re suffering an event like that, I don’t want to get into the difficulties of event, major event fundraising. But you know, we’re, we’re just not, we’re not, you’re right, we’re not creating like think of it like a business and we’re not, we’re not treating our pipeline of prospects and donors appropriately.

[00:25:47.71] spk_2:
So, you know, what strikes me is, um, a a because it, I, I can imagine that it’s, listen, it’s hard. There’s a million things to do your research constraint. Um uh it’s, there’s a, there’s high stress involved with fundraising, but there seemed to be some opportunities to rather than try and figure it all out on your own. There’s a, a dozens and dozens of millennials that want to do volunteer work and instead of doing, letting them do volunteer work on your core nonprofit course, why don’t enlist them to help you with the communication using social media? And just the, there’s so many of these, of that generation is so in tune with it. But what I’m seeing over and over again is we are recruiting them for helping them with the local dog rescue. I had that conversation with them. I said, I noticed that one here. This is why I, um I, I’ve been a very long time. Uh, uh donor of and they, what I noticed is, hey, I get all these lovely updates about dogs that need a home and placement. But I hardly ever see what happens after and the real reason why, like, what I care is I wanna make sure that those dogs go to the right place and I believe in your ability to do that. And that’s why I, I, I’m prepared to sort of help out. But the story that I really want to see is a happy dog in a happy household. But I never see those stories. Yeah, occasionally there’s one in the newsletter but you’re placing like so many dogs and, and then the penny drops, as we would say is, um, why don’t we get some of the, there was a volunteer, like there was a, there was a girl that was sort of helping with the shelter and, you know, helping to take care of the dogs and getting them ready, you know, making them look good for, uh for these, uh for the visits. And she was very, very skilled at social media. She was on Instagram. She was all this book and it, and she saw them well, now why don’t we just get these new families to record a little short video on their iphone uh after, you know, a couple of days in the home, like the first week, you know, the first week with Fluffy and it needs to be a very like badly shot video not produced. It is what it is. And then they said, what do we do with the video? You just give that video to me. I’ll take care of it. She said, and it was wonderful. And within a honestly, within a week, I think it turned into this whole thing that now they basically say, hey, as part of the placement of the doc, we need you to give us an update on how it’s going. And that update is a simple little video. They send it to it that now goes on the social base that gets connected to the newsletter, goes on the website. And now there’s a whole different audience that they’re tapping into and these dog stories are starting to do their rounds. Now, what did that cost? Not very much. Uh would a ba baby boomer be very good at executing that? Probably not. But you don’t have to like, you can use volunteers in different ways that you can use volunteers to help you with reach. And in fact, might actually be more helpful because we, that generation probably connects better to their own. Then sort of a grumpy, old boomer or young boomer uh grumpy.

[00:25:52.68] spk_0:
Now you added grumpy. That was not, it

[00:25:54.84] spk_2:
was affecting to myself.

[00:27:08.24] spk_0:
All right. Well, you take that on yourself. Fine. I take about grumpiness. You, you threw that in, you tried. All right. Yeah, it uh it just, you use the, that you have, whether it’s volunteer, it’s on your team. Uh Maybe it’s a consultant. You know, what you’re describing is, it sounds precious. The, the production value is meaningless. It’s, it’s the, it’s the substance and, and, you know, they, they probably now, you know, or they, they will soon have courses of these videos videos that they can repurpose on Instagram, tiktok, Mastodon, youtube, uh their, their own site, of course, uh uh links in newsletters, you know, uh 30 a AAA compilation of uh you know, 32nd videos or something. It’s, and, and that, and that’s the impact that, that, that’s the impact that a lot of people want to see and, and especially well, donors really, I think across the age spectrum are much more cognizant of impact, much more interested in impact. But I, I think younger folks are even more so um Dennis, let, let’s talk some more about some tactics of drawing in making that emotional connection, getting the heart and, and letting the brain follow.

[00:32:02.04] spk_2:
Yeah. Um um a, a couple of things um on that. I think we, we as an industry rely very heavily on email and I’m not so sure that’s a great idea. Um I think email is useful and helpful, but I don’t know about your inbox what that looks like. Um Mine looks pretty challenging. I’ve got a work one and I’ve got a private one and I take a deep sigh in the morning. When I have to sort of make weed my way through whatever, you know, irrelevant stuff, it starts with deleting a whole bunch of stuff and then hopefully I haven’t deleted it too much. So, email is challenging to get attention. Number one and two, it’s actually not easy to make email, uh, create a sort of reinforce of establish an emotional connection because you have to be actually quite good, quite good with, with words. And that’s a high bar, I think um that to, to there are some science out there about how you should write. I mean, the dr is always right about these stories. So the more of these stories you have to your point on impact, the more you should do it. But relying on email alone and then thinking that you have done it, I think is a pretty big mistake. Um I think you have a I like email as a uh uh you mentioned a couple of idea of uh of things like a newsletter or an update. So something that we basically uh is periodic. Uh So, hey, we’re here, this is what we’ve done. That’s great. That’s wonderful. Um But I much prefer that folks and we start to see that experiment with different media and voice, for instance, is still very much underutilized. So people don’t really use Zoom voice. I I there was actually an email that came in for someone that just recorded um a blurp like they had like a, it was like a zoom like we’re doing now today and they included that zoom into it, but there was no video, it was just voice and they were just telling, uh, there was an update of the month but they said we’re gonna try something different. We’re gonna, I’m gonna, so the executive director spoke on the zoom. I thought that was nice. So it was, so that was unusual. So I had a voice, I had him talk. There was a bit of a, a funny moment so you can hear them laugh as they said that I, I had it plugged it in my airpods as I was walking so easy. I don’t have to really uh you know, be concentrated on my, on my desk to read it all. So I thought it was a great, great way to use it. Video is still very underutilized. We all like, you know how it is, it’s not that difficult anymore to uh to have the video. You can still use your email to send it. Um And so I think when it comes to tactics that we have to be careful not to rely on one and just set it and forget it, right? So you basically say, oh yeah, I’m I am communicating with my donors. I’m sending an email. I send a, an um a newsletter every month. Uh Yeah, you know, is that the bar like is the, what is the latest. What is the late, what have you tried? What other things have you tried? Do you know whether they open it and read it? Do you do? Do you have that? Because nowadays we know? Right. We have a pretty good idea of, uh, whether folks read it or not and then what do you do with that information? You just continue sending stuff the other question I have. So that’s one thing it is about the tactics is don’t rely on a single attack. They just set some sort of a goal that every year or every quarter of it, whatever it is feasible, you try something new and see if it sticks, just stick it and stay with it for a few months but just try it, try it. Um, the other thing I would say is as much as there’s a reliance on, uh, the medium, email, phone video, whatever, there’s also a reliance on, uh, the recipient, which is who we’re sending it to. What I find. There’s a concept in business that’s called single threading, um, which is, uh, never referred to as a positive thing. It’s a bad thing. The single, single threading. So what we, what, what it means is that you’re basically when you’re trying to, uh, connect with an account with a prospect, it’s usually a business. And when your single thread in the account, it means that you’re only speaking with one contact in the, in that organization and you know, that a decision usually has to make with multiple people. And very often, even if there’s a CEO CEO would want to make sure that her team is consulted, et cetera, et cetera. So whether these folks are making, whether others are making the decision or influences is irrelevant. It’s very rare that one person calls all the shots. It’s much more common that multiple people have to be engaged, consulted and informed.

[00:32:50.86] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kila increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kela. The fundraiser, Crm maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with your donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser, Crm goes beyond data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit, Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:34:17.23] spk_0:
Thanks Kate. This week’s show gets published on September 11th, the anniversary of the day that changed our country changed the world profoundly. We all remember where we were, I was uh an employee. It was the dark days of uh employment for me at Saint John’s University in Queens, New York and Saint John’s is up on a hill and we could see downtown Manhattan. So it was in a distance but we could see it happening live. We were going between watching, live and, uh, for real and watching on TV, you know, more close up, of course, but everybody’s got their story of September 11th. And, uh, I think we should just, um, use the anniversary as a, a time to remember to keep in mind the victims, the immediate victims, uh, this week, uh, and also, uh, not only the ones who died that day, but those who are still dying from their service there and from exposures, let’s just remember those folks this week that is Tony’s take two. OK.

[00:34:23.98] spk_1:
You reminded me of a saying I once heard they’re gone but never forgotten.

[00:34:27.55] spk_0:
Yes. Yes.

[00:34:30.29] spk_1:
Let’s go back to donor retention with Dennis Fois.

[00:35:31.20] spk_2:
So you want to become multithreaded to increase your alt of success, in my opinion, the same is true for a household. If you solely rely on the first contact that you ever had, that is the the donor that has actually made the donation. But you know that they’re part or you might not even know that they’re part of a household and you’re not making any efforts to deeper connect and create more contacts in that household organization. You’re missing a big, big, big trick and a big opportunity because I think that the more we can establish an emotional connection at the household level, the higher, higher the chances that things make sense as part of a state planning this is a long drawn process but being simply relying and only communicated to a single donor, in my opinion, is a risky affair. And so doing events where my partners or Children are involved, do whatever you can. You obviously can’t ask who else is in your household. Give me their email addresses, understand. But there’s not, but you could make events deliberately and purposeful, designed to bring the family together, to bring them all in and then start to collect data as part of that event, right? Uh I don’t see a lot of that. Yeah.

[00:37:28.92] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s consistent with your first ideas, not be singular channel, you know, be multichannel, uh be multi thread within the, within the household. Exactly. Yeah. Iii I see that play out a lot uh in events where the there might be a couple there. Again, I do planned giving. So the events I’m going to are usually for older folks. Uh not necessarily plan giving age, but plan giving prospect age. And there are a lot of couples uh whether they’re married or partnered and I see a lot of conversations with one person in, in the couple and it’s, it’s usually, it’s usually the male in, in a, in a, in a traditional hetero couple. Um And, and the, the female is, you know, largely ignored but, you know, but whatever the couple dynamics, I i it’s a mistake to just be talking to the one person because you, you you want the support, you want the buy in, of, of, of the couple. Um, just, it just, it just makes things so much smoother. Uh, you, you reduce any contention around giving that might be playing out in, in the, in, in the home that you have no idea about. You know, so don’t, don’t talk to one person to the exclusion of the other person in, in the couple. Right. Iii, I see that a lot and I bet in person events, right. That, that’s a mistake.

[00:40:20.01] spk_2:
That’s a big mistake. And I bet tony that it’s if you were to go back, even if they’ve spoken or connected in some way, I bet that if you go back and look at the database and say, let’s say the household and we had a nice conversation with me and my wife that when you look back at the database, my wife’s contact information is not in that database. Right? So, because it’s again, none of these things happen with one conversation that like it’s, it’s very rare. I mean, as a magical when it happened, it’s wonderful, but it’s usually it takes time, it takes repeated connections, interactions over a long period of time. And so the best chance we have is if we broaden our reach, but not just broaden our reach, we’re constantly trying to find new people all the time. To your point, this big funnel machine. But if we can expand within our existing donors, we absolutely improve our retention rates. In reality, if you improve your retention rate by about sort of 10% or so, you triple the lifetime value over time over your, over your donor base. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it behooves upon all of us. How do you improve retention rates? Well, it’s not just constantly talking to the same person and sending them more stuff. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, you know, that, that has a diminishing return. So, and I feel that we probably need to talk more in the industry about it and share ideas or how others are doing it and talk more about these tactics because I feel that some of the uh some of the nonprofit organization that we talk to want to do it, they, they, they, they’re not afraid of experimenting but sometimes sort of lack the applicable ideas because the industry has started to become quite academic and we talk about things, you know, theoretical concepts and big numbers and scary numbers and frankly paralyzing numbers at the time, it like doesn’t inspire me to act, right? And I think we should maybe need to do a slightly better job as an industry. And I think you do that with your things like your, your podcast where you get deeper into the things and just ideas that I can sort of, you know, walk away but give me one or two ideas that I can do tomorrow then and I can at least I can sort of figure out whether it works or it might work for some, it won’t work for others. But if you don’t try you don’t know. And the reality is there’s no one approach that will work for everyone but relying on email alone and only talking to your donor is a guaranteed, guaranteed, uh, path that sets you to become part of the statistics. Yeah. That’s basically how they’ve been built

[00:41:00.80] spk_0:
on the wrong end. Yeah. Yeah. It, it’s shallow. It’s, it’s not a, it’s not a hard, uh, it’s not a heart to heart connection. Um, you know, as you were, as you were speaking, I was thinking, you know, when, when you call, if, if the, if the non, the non primary donor answers, do you just ask for the donor or do you say? Oh, hello. You know, and wouldn’t it be great if you could hearken back to the, to when you had the conversation at the last event with that other, the, the other person? Oh, it was such a pleasure to meet you, you know, or, or do you just say, you know, can I, oh, hi. Can I speak to Dennis? You know, that, that, that’s, that, that’s, that’s a, uh, it’s a turn off. It’s perceived by, by both people in the couple. Uh, it, it may not ever be spoken about or, or even worse. It might be, but it, it’s detrimental in either, in, in either case. Um, it’s just a, you know, it’s, it’s fundamental respect for, for people.

[00:42:38.17] spk_2:
Well, I agree in respect but also, um, sound business mind. Right. If you want to, like, if, if it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a good business practice. So there’s, there’s the head and the heart that comes together if you were to think that any time that you connect with someone, the donor, but you get somebody else on the phone as a prospecting opportunity, that might be the right mindset. You know, because you, that’s how you treat a new event. When you, when you with this new families and new folks coming be all overdose, right? To tell the story and why you started the uh the organization. Uh the same is true for this prospect with the big benefit that it’s a warm prospect. It’s not a cold prospect, right? Because there’s no connection. So if you think about how do I increase donation sizes, how do I become maybe part of recurring giving? Those are, those are the situations where that happens where both both partners have an emotional connection with the cause and stimulate one another and say, hey, this is something we want, really want to support as a family now that always leads to more sustained and higher donations. Um First, as being one of the two partners that supported because this is their uh their charity of choice.

[00:42:48.49] spk_0:
Other, other thoughts Dennis about tactics that folks can at least experiment with.

[00:45:17.14] spk_2:
Um, yeah, well, so what is, what it has been pretty successful? This might be, um, a little sort of personal but what has been successful here locally? Um, II, I, it was actually quite interesting. So we, um, there are these groups of, uh, people that get together for hobbies, in our case, I’m part of a club that likes old cars. So old people and old cars come together once in a while and they, they do, they take whatever excuse on the wrist to sort of drive these things. And, uh, but we wanted to add a little bit of more depth to it. So we started to, um, to seek out whether there were uh interesting nonprofit organizations around us that we could support somehow. So to make the, so we would basically say, hey, as part of this drive, there is a cost to the drive and that this, this cost was basically fundraising. So we would raise through these drivers a donation and we would then have a, um, have that money go to a, uh a charity of choice, right? One that we would say, hey, this month we’re gonna be supporting this. What I found remarkable is that very few nonprofit organization had identified that a lot of these events were happening. I’ve got a local tennis club, there’s a local, there’s a very, very big car community here in Carmel and Monterey. It’s just a thing. So everybody that lives here knows that. But what I found staggering is that it was actually hard work for us to find. We actually had to seek out nonprofit organizations and explain that we wanted to do some events. And then once we had that people were very generous and said, oh, we come over and speak, we can say a few things about what we we will do and we would attach an auction, little auction, something around to just make sure that these are affluent people. So, you know, making donations is, is a, is, is not a high friction situation. Um But what I found remarkable and a missed opportunity which we’re now making more available is tap into these um communities. So, you know, there are in Indie, it’s the same in Indianapolis. There’s a lot of communities that have certain themes that folks that get together, a lot of them would be very happy, supported co courses. And so what I’m seeing, but

[00:45:34.49] spk_0:
pardon me? But these are essentially giving circles. They are. And I, I had the, I had the evangelist for giving circle Sarah on the show just within the past six weeks or so. Um So, you know, whether it’s a car club or a bunch of folks who meet once a month in someone’s in rotating homes or, you know, or it’s some other, some other uh organization that’s willing to do fundraising and, and granting you’re, you’re essentially, you’re talking about giving circles in, in your community.

[00:49:25.30] spk_2:
100%. That’s a wonderful way of, of uh putting it and uh talk about building a funnel and building connection into, into your community. Uh And they very often become repeat themes, especially if there is an emotive connection with the individual. If the executive director does a good job at presenting, being there, telling the story of the organization, you know, you, I would say it’s almost guaranteed, there’ll be some sort of successful. So it’s really worth doing. But again, it’s about being proactive and seeking those out, making an effort to actually find out what, what is around me. Uh That seems to me, I was blown away. Uh It’s now become a thing with us or every month. There’s something that sometimes there’s twice a month or something. Um But what is also interesting is that most of us end up giving to the ones that we are really connected with, right? So there is the, the event itself that produces us, but some of us actually get, we had a, we had a lady that um had a very traumatic situation with her husband and a child and a child had a disease that was very difficult to cure. And it sort of inspired her to create a, a organization or profit organization to help folks with, um with a, in a similar situation. And she, when she told her story, I most most of us couldn’t keep it together to be honest. So it just becomes like a different level of connectivity and accountability. And so, so I I, no, no, I wanna help you. This is crazy. There is no support from um uh health care that this is sort of under recognized. These people are out, out, out, out, all out on their own. Actually with a little bit of money, a lot can be done. So you start to connect the dots to say what I can actually have a real impact here and help to make a situation better. I can fund. If I can fund this lady, people’s life will change. And when you get to that sort of level of this is where my money or time can go and this is the impact I can achieve I want. II I mean, I’ve had a reluctant to say donor for life because we know that that’s a difficult thing, but that’s a level of connection that no email in the world, no phone in the world can be, can hope to achieve. And so if you’re not out there connecting with an audience like that new circles, um you’re making it yourself very hard, I think to find these people that are, that are then spreading the word because I didn’t talk to all this about it. So we know how that all works, right? So I would say those are still very underutilized idea. So this the this idea of using multiple channels of communications expanding within the families, sort of the multi threading thing that we’re talking about and exploring the circles rather than treating individuals of transactions. We have a lot of room for improvement when it comes about executing and doing good, better, best on those. And so in a way, the statistics that we talked about are not that surprising because frankly, if you’d run a business in the way we are running as an industry nonprofit, these are the statistics that you would get. It’s like fast in, fast out. Yeah, it’s, it’s a classic bad business model like,

[00:49:30.53] spk_0:
yeah, uh Boomerang wouldn’t survive that way. No, no,

[00:49:33.29] spk_2:
no, no. My board would swap me out real quick. You had

[00:50:47.46] spk_0:
clients, you had clients for a year and, and 77% of them uh stayed only that long. Um Yeah, loyalty, you know, it’s, it’s all, it’s all the heart, loyalty, connections. Um speaking from the heart, respecting people. And then, yeah, you know, and, and so I, I speak kind of altruistically or, or maybe not academically but altruistic. Uh and uh and lofty and, you know, you remind us that it’s also all good business. It’s all good business to, to think of the partner as a, as a, as a prospect uh to, to have folks telling their own story in a, in a simple iphone video with low production value from the home with dim lighting and, and the sound is cutting out and the Children are in the background but the, you know, but the, but the newly placed dog, uh, pet is, is, is, is barking wildly and, and that’s the, you know, that’s the impact. That’s perfect. So, it’s, it’s, it’s, that’s the, those are the moments that are sincere and genuine, connect with our hearts and end up being good business.

[00:53:29.50] spk_2:
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. And, um, that head and heart thing, we, I think when we, when our organizations get la get larger, nonprofit organizations get larger, you, you, it’s ok to think of a part of it as a business. It’s ok actually because the more effective the organization becomes the greater the impact you can achieve at our company at Bloomer. We, we have often sort of struggle with that balance where you sort of say, well, do, is it all about growing revenues? Is that basically the, the mark of a success for us or how do we measure impact? But the reality is you should not put pit those two things against each other because if you could see uh fundraising volume or revenue, you could see that as fuel and you need fuel. We need fuel. So you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t shortchange yourself or making sure like you feel really good, you’ve done this wonderful thing, but it doesn, doesn’t scale because it requires you to do it over and over. It can scale. But now you’re not putting fuel in a tank and we, we have to have few because the more fuel we have the greater the impact that we can choose the more resource. So the problem is that we have in this, in this industry, it’s difficult for us to attract and retain talent. So as much as we have a donor retention problem, look at the employee retention problem that we have in this industry. And if you become more successful at creating scalable and repeatable initiatives, which you’re experimenting, you’re trying things, you’re making these emotional connections, we can attract high quality people into the organization that can sort of sustain and increase that momentum. So I, I often, when we talk about this, it feels like, yeah, but you can’t run a nonprofit organization like a business. And I said, well, why not? Um why not? Um You, you know, if you, I, at some point, I’d like to work in an organization like this, but you better believe it that I be, I’m gonna be very intense in the work. I’m not gonna sort of be relaxed because I work in a nonprofit because I’m gonna be super intense if we’re wasting money or if we are not following up on things or something goes out, that is a little bit half baked. That is not a high standard. Like why, why wouldn’t those things apply? Isn’t that what makes things better, like striving to better standards doing something, trying something different growing as an organization. So I think we have to be destigmatize the, the brain part uh in this industry and say that it’s OK to pursue growing as an organization because that growth allows to achieve far greater impact than the individual to start. The organization ever thought was imaginable. So we growth has to be part of an obe of the objective of the organization.

[00:54:20.17] spk_0:
Dennis. I’d like to leave it there. Thank you, tony and II I unical agree with you about perceiving our organizations as businesses. Uh III I, I’d take a step further and say, I think it’s essential. We, we don’t, we don’t lose our heart. We don’t lose our mission that the two are not mutually exclusive. We, we can, we can pursue our missions and our values as well as think of ourselves as a business. That’s, that’s not the zero

[00:54:25.96] spk_2:
sum, 100% 100%

[00:54:36.40] spk_0:
Denis Fo Fois. He’s CEO of Boomerang. You’ll find Dennis on linkedin. You’ll find the company at Boomerang dot co, Dennis. Thank you very much for sharing your thinking. I appreciate it.

[00:54:43.89] spk_2:
Huge. Thanks for the opportunity, tony. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. My

[00:54:47.07] spk_0:
pleasure. Thank you.

[00:54:57.22] spk_1:
Next week, donor dominance with Ian mcquillan. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:55:00.36] spk_0:
I’d be you find it at Tomm martignetti dot com

[00:55:11.98] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org.

[00:55:20.32] spk_0:
I love that alliteration

[00:55:38.38] spk_1:
and Bikila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyer. I’m your associate producer, Kate Marett. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:56:06.34] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be.

Nonprofit Radio for August 21, 2023: The 5 A’s Of Awesome Fundraising

 

Cara AugspurgerThe 5 A’s Of Awesome Fundraising

It’s a valuable back-to-basics conversation with a bunch of tips you’ve probably never heard. Leading us through is Cara Augspurger from Donorbox.

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:35.76] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite Heb Mittal podcast. And oh, I’m glad you’re with us. You’d turn me into a mono. Thus, if I had to see that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming?

[00:00:59.48] spk_1:
Thank you so much, tony. We have the five A is an awesome fundraising. It’s a valuable back to basics conversation with a bunch of tips. You’ve probably never heard leading us thorough is Kara Augsburger from Donor box on Tony’s take two.

[00:01:02.29] spk_0:
It could have been the end for me,

[00:01:12.22] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org.

[00:01:21.65] spk_0:
I love that. I love that alliteration. Kate, fast, flexible, friendly fundraising forms, love that.

[00:01:29.32] spk_1:
It sounds cool, but it’s not very fun to say

[00:01:34.42] spk_0:
tough,

[00:01:37.39] spk_1:
very tough. Now, here is the five A’s of awesome fundraising.

[00:02:08.04] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to welcome Kara Ox Beger to nonprofit radio. She is a longtime development professional, currently serving as fundraising coach for donor Boxx and focuses on consulting with nonprofits of all sizes. Her expertise is in coaching, annual fundraising, project management and communications. She’s on linkedin Kara Ger with A P, not A B. It’s not.

[00:02:14.32] spk_2:
No, it’s not tony

[00:02:18.75] spk_0:
and the company is at donor box dot org. That’s correct.

[00:02:22.03] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Thanks so much for having me. What a warm welcome pleasure.

[00:02:26.13] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you from Noblesville, Indiana.

[00:02:29.41] spk_2:
That’s correct.

[00:02:30.90] spk_0:
And we’re talking about the five A’s of awesome fundraising. So this is not just, this is not just, you know, lackluster, mediocre type fundraising. We’re talking about awesome fundraising,

[00:02:46.79] spk_2:
right? The five A S, you know, our donor box team coined the term the five A’s of awesome fundraising to really introduce the concept and help people remember the cycle of fundraising. So, you know, identify, cultivate, solicit steward, we just made them a little easier and put an a next to each of them. So we have, it’s

[00:03:22.00] spk_0:
the cycle that we’re accustomed to. Exactly. But all right. So refreshers are important, valuable basics, basics, lots of people trigger, you know, they’ll say, oh, you know, that’s just a good reminder, good reminder. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna share good reminders. Excellent, excellent. So, uh I’ll let you introduce your, your first. A

[00:04:21.71] spk_2:
Well, sure. So we often at donor box, we are working with fundraisers who are really, really good at delivering on their mission. They’re really, really good at um creating innovative programs, but maybe they’re struggling to understand some fundraising fundamentals. And so my job is to kind of create ways to make learning those fun and engaging. And so that’s was the basis around the five A’s. So first we attract new supporters to your organization, you know, that would be identi identification and cultivation and then we ask them to come alongside you by giving, then we promptly acknowledge those gifts, right? And then we account for those donations and we do it again and again and again. So it’s attract, ask acknowledge account. And again, so those five A’s, they’re not fancy, they’re not innovative, they’re nothing new. Um But those are kind of those fundraising fundamentals that successful nonprofits are actively doing and actively incorporating into their communication cadence to bring donors into the life of the organization and really cultivate that sense of belonging.

[00:04:40.93] spk_0:
All right. So let’s, let’s focus on attraction. Yeah. What, what uh what are your reminders there, your tips.

[00:04:51.46] spk_2:
So, you know, you, you need to attract new supporters to your organization and then you need to make sure that your organization is attractive to those. So, uh you want to make sure that you are um actively on social media that you’re telling compelling stories of your mission and action, you’re showing people ways to get involved by volunteering and things like that. So you’re attracting those people, you’re, you know, the fundraising fundamental. So you’re cultivating them to your organization

[00:05:31.48] spk_0:
and some of those uh some of those uh a attraction mechanisms might be as simple as, like, sign a petition. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t have to be come in person or something. We can, we can have, we could have a lift but something that gets people uh initially

[00:05:34.05] spk_2:
engaged. Yeah. You’re aware, you’re building awareness for your organization. Yeah.

[00:05:38.95] spk_0:
OK. That’s another good a but that’s not in awareness. It’s like a subset. So, uh I’m not, I don’t want to pervert the whole donor box. Uh the whole donor box. A team of five A make it six.

[00:05:49.76] spk_2:
We don’t want no.

[00:05:50.75] spk_0:
Every time you say an A word, I’m not gonna say, oh, there’s an A but uh awareness is a subset of attraction and being, being attractive. Talk a little more about the, the being attractive part how you, you know, how you appeal.

[00:06:37.23] spk_2:
Yeah. So you know, you repeat the cycle and you want to keep your organization attractive to your current supporters. So maybe that’s where you introduce a survey or you ask what appeals to them most about the mission. You could uh engage with them through some newsletters, some good communication about what’s going on or, you know, in person. So you can invite them to coffee, invite them to events, invite them to volunteer. Um And it’s not just about doing those things, it is about staying relevant in the minds of your supporters. You know, we know supporters are supporting fewer organizations these days, dollars are limited. And so you really want to stay in the forefront of your supporters’ minds. And so that’s where you really just want to keep that communication cadence. Um going throughout the year, you don’t want to just go, go to your donors when you need something, you want to communicate and build relationship and stay in relationship with them.

[00:07:05.75] spk_0:
Yeah, that is critical. Not only sending solicitations, you know, however many times a year, let’s drill down, let’s drill down a little bit on the, uh, the surveys, surveys. What, what’s your advice around survey? You know, like length? Um, I don’t know, time of year, uh, how to get folks to do the survey, you know, what, what are your tips around those things?

[00:07:53.68] spk_2:
You know, I think my, uh, my advice to anyone is as, um, personal of the ask as you can make it. I think the more, um, engagement you’re going to get around it. So if you could say, hey, tony, I’m gonna send you a survey in the mail or in the, you know, in your email. And if you have five minutes to really give me some insight into what you see, you know, in the organization, boy, I would really value that if I could ask you that on the phone or if I saw you at an event or something like that, you might be more engaged and more apt to complete that survey. So, that, you know, and you can even personalize that at a scalable level through some emails, some make your email look really personal through some mail merges and things like that to really make it seem like you’re speaking one on one to the receiver. So that’s how, that’s an

[00:08:20.22] spk_0:
introductory email. Yeah. Yeah, couple of days I’m going to send you or something

[00:09:13.79] spk_2:
like that or, yeah, I mean, just however the communication, the communication schedule works out for you, you could even, you know, package it together with the survey link or something like that. But yeah, just as, as interpersonal as, as, as possible. So it looks less like it’s from the organization and more from the person who’s sending it, whether that’s the executive director or the communications manager, the development manager, whatever it is. So I think that one on one really feeds engagement. Um, but as far as like length, what we’re seeing that is working really well is micro content so short, actionable. Um, you know, I think if people see how far along they are and in the steps, you know, you’re at step one of five, question, one of five, something like that. That kind of keeps people motivated to complete it as opposed to this never ending survey that, that never ends. I know, I know,

[00:09:14.86] spk_0:
I appreciate the progress bar. You’re 10% or 20% or right, one out of five or something. I like to know that I like to know where the end

[00:10:31.15] spk_2:
is. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you have um, well crafted questions, so you’ve worked with, you know, a board member or your staff ahead of time to determine what is, what’s your outcome on this survey? What do you really want to glean from this information? I’m working, I’m on the board for um, a nonprofit here in uh the Indianapolis area that works um to provide um services to people who are a little food insecure. Um But the foundation, so there’s a foundation that’s set up to, to kind of um resource the food pantry and, and the services. So there’s some confusion right now on, do I give to the church that runs the services or do I give to the foundation or whatever? So, what we’re doing is we’re crafting a survey to say, hey, do you understand the difference between the foundation, the church, the food pantry? How does that work? Um And, and really trying to get to the purpose, our purpose is clarity around our communication and where to direct people to give money, but we need to work backwards and craft the questions so that they really are um short and compelling and impactful and give us the answers that we need. So I think as long as you’re, you’re really paring down um and really honing in on the purpose of the survey, I think you’ll be able to, to draft some short, uh, really, really great questions that’ll, that’ll drive the, the answers that you’re looking for.

[00:10:56.06] spk_0:
You have a maximum number of questions that, that you’re working toward in your survey.

[00:11:13.30] spk_2:
I’d like to stop it. I’d like to leave it at five. I think five is a good number. Um, you know, I think if they’re quick questions, if it’s multiple choice, those would go a little faster than those open ended. So maybe you’d have a little more wiggle room for some questions there. But I think, you know, too, I think there’s always an opportunity for an executive director or someone to step in after you complete the survey and say, hey, tony, those were really great um examples you shared in that survey, would you be open to a conversation to talk a little bit more about what you think and you know, those opportunities, those touch points are really part of those five A’s, you’re keeping that conversation going and saying, I see you and I value the input that you have into our organization.

[00:11:41.30] spk_0:
I think people would be very grateful for like personal follow up. Now, if you’re, you’re sending thousands of surveys, you know, I don’t know. Uh hopefully you get more than a dozen responses. Sometimes surveys can do poorly. So you might, you might only get 12 or 15 or 20 responses and then you can be personal um with, with those, with those folks and look, I mean, you’re thanking them in a way for, you know, for being among the small percentage of people who did reply.

[00:12:09.52] spk_2:
Oh, for sure, for sure. And what, what’s the, what’s the old adage that you ask for it? You ask for money and you get advice, but you ask for advice and you get money. Well,

[00:12:19.67] spk_0:
that, that may result indeed. Or you, or you might, you might get a, a new volunteer or something. You’ll, you’ll certainly get somebody grateful. Uh, after you’ve, you’ve, like, personally followed up and said, you know, your answer to this was important or

[00:12:32.16] spk_2:
whatever. Yeah. It’s an opportunity. It’s an opportunity for conversation, an opportunity to grow that relationship.

[00:12:58.25] spk_0:
Another thing, um, folks have said is that you don’t ask for information that you, uh, you can’t preserve and, and act on like, if, like, if you’re asking a survey question, would you rather we email you or use direct mail or text? Then they give you the answer. You have to, you have to honor their, their answer. Either that or don’t, don’t ask the question. Yeah,

[00:13:14.38] spk_2:
exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re not gonna segregate that information into your data and you end up mailing someone who said they only want an email, then it may have backfired on you the whole process, right? You really,

[00:13:17.36] spk_0:
yeah, then you have hurt the, then you hurt the relationship better to not even just ask if you don’t have the capability for text. Don’t offer communications, you know, by, by

[00:13:26.08] spk_2:
MS for sure, it goes back to the whole big, big goal that what outcome do you want from the survey?

[00:13:33.26] spk_0:
Absolutely. Very true. As you said at the outset, right? All right. Uh You feel OK with uh attract and being attractive?

[00:14:15.40] spk_2:
Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah, identify and cultivate and um really get them introduced into all that your organization offers. So that is a track. OK. Then you’re ready to ask. Oh, you are ready to ask. And I think so many nonprofits think that that ask is exponentially um hard and it’s an exponential, you know, use of time in fundraising. But really if you’re doing these other things, well, that ask gets a lot easier, but it, it is important to ask and if you are only telling, you know, stories of impact and um you know, really advocating for your cause, but you never ask for money, you’re missing a big opportunity there.

[00:14:23.10] spk_0:
Now you ask, could come in other forms too, right? It might be. Now, now we’re talking about something more than, you know, sign a petition, but it could be volunteer.

[00:15:14.76] spk_2:
Mhm Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. One pitfall I see with that though, tony is um a lot of times in a fundraising appeal, I think we sometimes as nonprofit professionals are kind of uncomfortable about that ask and what we tend to do is gloss over it in the fundraising appeal. So, hey, tony. Can you give me $50 or volunteer or share this email? I think it’s really important in a fundraising appeal to have one call to action and if you’re asking for money and for a volunteer and to share the word, guess what people are going to do, the one thing that doesn’t cost them money. So if you’re asking for money, make sure that that’s super clear. And that is the only call to action in your, in your fundraising appeal.

[00:15:47.97] spk_0:
Yeah, I, I didn’t mean to dilute your, your, your, your fundraising. Ask if I was just saying, you know, you could be asking for something else that’s substantial, which is a gift of time. Yeah. But no, I absolutely agree. You don’t dilute, don’t and don’t be humble. You know, you, oh, you know, we hate to ask. But could you, you know, you have, needs, your work is important and you have, needs to, to fulfill that work, to fulfill that mission. Ask with

[00:15:48.71] spk_2:
confidence. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um Fear free fundraising is, is kind of the approach I take there. You, you need to know what you do, why you do, why it’s important, um, what you’re doing differently than anyone else and be really, really proud of that. And when you kind of have those things ingrained in to your thought process, why do you care, then it’s much easier to communicate that to other people? And you don’t feel like you’re tap dancing around it all the time

[00:16:17.36] spk_0:
and, and you don’t want to take for granted that, that people understand all that, you know, because you work in it, day in, day out, week after week, et cetera. But, but everybody else

[00:16:28.17] spk_2:
doesn’t. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:16:31.82] spk_0:
Um, have you seen any, uh, any good, uh, asks lately that you can, uh, you can share?

[00:17:48.29] spk_2:
Well, we’re, we’re getting ready for the biggest ask of the year, right? The year end fundraising season is always a good one. Um You know, I help a lot of organizations really learn the art of appeal, writing. And so, um I’m excited to, I actually have a live in person workshop with a lot of new fundraising professionals in, in about two weeks. And so I’m excited to work with them through that process and see what they come up with. Um But as far as good asks lately, gosh, they’re all over the place. Um We have a nonprofit that we work with called Maya’s Hope and I actually just saw on linkedin before I got on this call, they had a really clear compelling ask to become a monthly donor at $10 a month. And what they show was a picture of a boy in Ukraine and what he, he has special needs and his mom is unable to work right now, has two young Children. They live in a war zone, right? Um But what $10 a month provides for him. There was a photo of it and it was some diapers and some hard to get medication for his, you know, for his situation. And it was saying for $10 a month, um you can give this mom peace of mind that her son is gonna get what he needs for the month because you give to this organization, you put the, the materials in this mother’s hands and relieve her burden and you know, relieve the, the pain that her son is going through because you give to this organization and it was just such a clear, compelling, um, as it really stuck in my mind and I saw it really just a few minutes ago.

[00:18:17.38] spk_0:
Um, it’s personalized. Yeah,

[00:18:19.63] spk_2:
it was, it was

[00:18:20.49] spk_0:
mom. It’s her son.

[00:18:22.19] spk_2:
Mhm. Yeah. And, and you know, and I think that they target demographic. I think a lot of their donors are probably mothers, um, who are kind of feeling the same things about their kids. And so they have a, it’s a woman run organization and I think they have a lot of female donors who just really feel that the tug at the heart strings and understand when they give a little bit and another mom might have some relief.

[00:19:07.57] spk_0:
Maya’s hope is an example that uh we’ve cited in some of our sponsorship messages with donor box because they, they have incredible, I forget what their percentage of increase was when they, when they moved to the donor box platform, but I don’t know if it, if it was the 400% 1 or it was the 267% 1 or whatever. But they’ve been cited in our, in our

[00:19:22.81] spk_2:
message for you. Oh, yeah, I actually I meet with them once a week and so my, my meeting with them is this afternoon. So I’ll be sure to mention that to them that, that you’re noticing them. They’ll be very happy about that. It’s time for a

[00:20:00.99] spk_1:
break. Donor box quote, I regularly experience how donor boxes easy setup and ultra swift pay fast checkout deliver. What we need. Donor box allows us to focus on why we do this, our clients and their needs. End quote. That’s from Jenny N A board member and recurring donor at Organic Soup Kitchen in Santa Barbara, California donor box helping you help others. Donor box dot org. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:22:34.42] spk_0:
Thanks, Kate. I had a rough experience harrowing experience earlier this week. It was just uh four days ago. I was in a car accident. My car was totaled, totally smashed in the front. Uh It’s total. I walked out of it. Uh My, my steering wheel airbag went off my head, hit it and III I smelled this acrid burning smell and I heard hissing, I quick, you know, checked myself, I unbuckled my seatbelt and I was able to just get out and, and walk remarkable could have been, it could have been a lot, a lot different. There were four cars involved and there was someone who was not as fortunate as I was, he was, had to be extricated from the car by the fire department with those jaws of life and they bandaged his head and I could see there was still blood coming even through the bandages. I could see him and he was taken away on a stretcher in an ambulance. He was the worst hurt. You know, it just, it just could have been a lot worse who obviously grateful that I was unscathed. Not even a nose bleed. Uh My, my glasses didn’t even bend, hitting the, the airbag makes me think of my uh father in-law who’s no longer living. Uh because he was an automobile engineer. Cars are engineered to absorb impact with, with crumple zones in the front and the back. I, I needed the one in the front. That’s what saved my life, you know, but crumple zones and safety zones and airbags and the sensors and that’s, um, that, that’s a credit to my father-in-law and all his colleagues in automotive engineering. And it makes me think about how, how close I came and just makes me grateful for scientists, engineers who make our lives safer. That was just this week. And that is Tony’s take too,

[00:22:39.05] spk_1:
Kate. I’m glad you’re with us, Uncle tony.

[00:22:41.45] spk_0:
No, thank you.

[00:22:44.06] spk_1:
We’ve got, but loads more time now back to the five A’s of awesome fundraising with Kara Ox Beger.

[00:22:55.77] spk_0:
Anything else on the, on the ask?

[00:22:58.13] spk_2:
Well, you know, I think so much effort is spent on thinking of that first gift. Um but I think it’s just as important to really earn that second gift. And so that is actually a really great segue into our next A OK.

[00:23:20.15] spk_0:
Oh, I just, I thought of one. OK, before we get, before we get to this, to the next a uh acknowledge um in, in writing, you know, if you’re, if you’re doing, whether it’s digital or print II, I hate to see the asks buried in a, in a dense paragraph, you know, make it, I think, make them stand out now again. Don’t be, don’t be shy and, and humble in your asks. Yeah. Make sure

[00:24:58.19] spk_2:
that it’s clear somewhere. Yeah, what we really encourage people to do so we teach appeal, writing and what we encourage people to do is start with um their direct man letter as an anchor of their communication series around their ask. And in that direct mail letter, what we have them do is make sure that you can understand if you only read the bolded parts of the letter that, that actually tells the whole story. So you have the um the problem. So, and I mean, I’m gonna use this, this Maya Hope example again. So, um mom doesn’t know what to do. Uh son is in need of medication. So, you know, throughout you’re telling a narrative but, but that is, that’s the problem, right? And then you talk about how the organization can help with that. Oh, but Maya’s Hope provides these materials and then you put your call to action and for $10 a month, this child can get what he needs and mom gets peace of mind. Um So if you, if you in the whole narrative of the letter, if you bolded those pieces, the, the reader would be able to really understand what the problem is, what your solution is and how they can help. And then what we do is encourage people to take that anchor piece. A lot of people don’t even do direct mail, but I think it’s a good idea to even start by writing it. And then you can syndicate that direct mail letter into an email or an email series and some social media posts to follow up with that. So you’re really taking um a story and using it as a fundraising campaign for a short period of time and really curating all of your communications around that, that anchor piece.

[00:25:21.21] spk_0:
Do you have advice around uh maximum length of uh I mean, clearly, you know, emails should be shorter but, but uh uh you know, maximum length for a direct mail, you know, print piece.

[00:26:17.87] spk_2:
Well, you know, Mal Warwick is kind of like the, you know, the official go to for me for direct mail writing and he says longer, longer is more compelling. Um, four pages. I’ve never in my life sent a four page appeal letter. Uh but they say, you know, the research says the longer the better I’ve received some in the mail. Um, but no, I, I tend to stick to a front of a page in the back of a page and insert a response device and a carrier envelope in a return envelope. So that’s the package I usually like. Um I think a lot of people think that you have to, you have to just limit the length of a mailed letter to just the front of the page. But I think you can go a little longer. Ok? Especially if you’re telling a good story. I mean, it’s all about storytelling and and really keeping the donor engaged. If you, if you’re writing, well, the donor will turn the the donor will turn the page and keep reading.

[00:26:33.14] spk_0:
Acknowledge. We, we, we almost, we almost got there. You teased right now. Now we’re into that important acknowledgement. I know you’re gonna say that acknowledgements should come fast.

[00:26:49.30] spk_2:
Yeah. So earning that second gift right? We know that acknowledgements need to be prompt and personally um and really make an impact. You want the reader to understand that you are so grateful for their support, so that sincere gratitude, so prompt, personal, sincere gratitude. That really goes a long way.

[00:27:06.00] spk_0:
I love sincerity. You know, and you don’t have to be long to be sincere, genuine heartfelt in your, in your, in your gratitude.

[00:27:21.33] spk_2:
Absolutely. And, and I think, I think, you know, I think that’s something that we, as people are really craving right now. That authenticity, that sincerity. I think that we’re living in such a fast paced life and we have all this A I and all this tech around us that when we get something sincere and authentic, um it really stands out to us.

[00:27:37.92] spk_0:
I’m a big fan of handwritten notes.

[00:28:37.26] spk_2:
Yeah, I just wrote about 15 last night for a fundraising campaign. I’m working on. So, yeah, I, I feel it. I, I’m a big fan of them too. I love receiving them. I love sending them. Um I know it’s a lot of work. I have, I have organizations that I work with. They’re like, I don’t have time for that. Well, there are ways you can, you can modify it. You can do um a mail merged email that looks like it just came from your, your inbox and you can really be like, hey, I just saw your donation come in. I, I really wanted to let you know right away um what this will do and you know, you can, you can really be a little creative. You can even print some Acknowledgments hands, sign them and write a little note on them. Um I received an acknowledgement from an organization, the other day where it was actually written and signed by a volunteer. And that’s OK. I think that those kind of things are just fine. I think you just really need to acknowledge that gift and we know that um that, you know, I think donor attention is down right now. I think a lot of people are saying I’m losing donors and I’m losing donors. Um And I think acknowledgements are the key to that donor renewal. You know, I mentioned earlier, a lot of organizations focus on that first gift. Um But really earning that second gift is what’s important and that’s where acknowledge comes in.

[00:28:55.36] spk_0:
You just gave a lot of good uh tactics for, for, for handwritten or, or something very close to it. Uh Another one is that, that’s, it’s a terrific activity for a board board members. You give them a list of 15 or 20 they can either they could do it in a board meeting or they could take it home with them. You just give them the stationary, take it home with them. I’m sure they’d be happy to mail them,

[00:29:38.78] spk_2:
make a phone call, they can make a phone call. Yeah, leave a voicemail. Yeah. Give them a little script that, you know, most, most calls go to voicemail anyway, just give them a little script that they can leave in a voicemail and, and that’s really impactful. Um What, what always helped me when I um was in a role, I was in a um director of development role and my primary responsibility was acknowledgements. And what I did is I blocked out the last hour of my day on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I made that my handwritten note uh time. And so I went through, I went through the reports. I made sure that they got um notes, but I built it into my schedule and then it was just part of my day and part of my routine for the week. And then I got to go home feeling like I actually accomplished something right

[00:30:37.96] spk_0:
for anything that’s, that’s important. You know, you have, you have to make the time, you’re not gonna find it. Listeners maybe heard me say that if you’ve been listening a while, you’re never gonna find the time, you’re gonna make it. So you have to make it if handwritten notes are important to you an hour a week, two hours a week, delegate it to your board, delegate it to volunteers. That’s a great idea. You know, it’s, people are gonna be thrilled to get a handwritten note because I, I agree with you that we are thirsting for some, some more personal contact coming out of the pandemic when we were, we were prohibited from having personal contact and, and you’re right with artificial intelligence uh growing in popularity to get something that, you know, is genuine, authentic. Um or even the substitutes that you mentioned, you know, if you can, if you can’t do the literal handwritten note, the ways you mentioned to come close, you know, something that’s, that’s email. That, that sounds genuine.

[00:31:07.67] spk_2:
Um, and again, yeah, I think, I think when it comes from the individual, not the organization that adds just a little more impact, um, it makes it seem a little more authentic and, um, yeah, I, I think that one on one is where the relationship grows.

[00:31:25.08] spk_0:
And then if you want to follow with a more formal letter that, you know, maybe says, you know, the, uh it gives your tax deductible tax deductibility disclaimer if you want to include that, you know, that could follow several days later or a week later after the, after the, the, the, the phone message from the board member or the volunteer or whoever. So, you know, you don’t have to incorporate it all in one. And well, how do I sound genuine if I also want to put a tax disc disclaimer in?

[00:31:53.15] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. Um The

[00:31:55.33] spk_0:
disclaimer message could be automatic but the, the first thank you could be genuine, sincere and handwritten or a phone

[00:33:07.90] spk_2:
call. And there are some ways you can blend the two I know um donor box, you can customize your donation receipt, so you can warm up that language that they get right away. When they make an online donation, you can add in a little story or a video. Um You can really warm that up. I like to use the analogy. I think a lot of people are confused. I’m glad you brought this up, tony because I think a lot of people are confused about the difference between a donation receipt and an acknowledgement. And so I like to use this analogy. So your donation receipt is like the receipt you get um at the grocery store. It’s very transactional. It says um you know, you purchased this item on this date for this much money where in a management is like, um, a thank you note to your favorite aunt because she sent you a birthday gift. And so you would never say dear auntie thank you for the sweater valued at $49.95 that you mailed on August 15th. Um, no, you would never say that you would say. Wow, thank you so much for your generosity. That’s my favorite color. I’ll wear it all the time. Um, and then I think there’s a big pitfall too. A lot of people will ask for a second gift in their acknowledgement. You know, hey, thank you for, for giving $10. Would you give us $10 a month? No. And use that analogy then as your, as your litmus test, you would never say dear auntie, thank you for that sweater. Can you send me some jeans and some shoes to match it? No, you would never do that. So if you kind of use that as a litmus test of what you’re sending out. Um I think that that’s, that’s usually what I do in my mind. Anyway,

[00:34:09.76] spk_0:
there’s another opportunity to ask for the follow on gift to ask for the gift to be a sustaining gift monthly. You have other chances at that. Don’t, don’t blow your, your gratitude time on on talk about diluting now you’re diluting your thank you with a with a second ask. It’s just like you said, don’t dilute your ask, don’t dilute your, your gratitude with a with a second ask or request for anything. You just make it a straight. Thank you and touch the, touch the person again at another time.

[00:34:12.91] spk_2:
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, if you’re doing those other things, well, if you’re, if you are acknowledging and you’re showing that you’re accountable for those donations and you’re, you know, continuing to make your organization attractive when you do ask for that monthly gift or whatever is next, they might be able, you know, raise their hand a little faster and say, yeah, I’m in

[00:34:44.45] spk_0:
indeed indeed. Give them the chance, right? Let, let them, let them maybe self identify too. All right. All right. All important. Uh We’re up, we’re up. Well, go ahead. You, you announced this one, you see them at the beginning, but you can announce our fourth. Awesome

[00:35:39.70] spk_2:
A our fourth A is a count. And so that would also fall under stewardship in that, you know, typical fundraising cycle. But this is where you’re showing impact for your gift. And we know this is important because, um, donors say they stop giving because they believe that their gift won’t really help or the money won’t be used. And so that’s where you have to account, account for that hard earned money that your supporters give to your organization. So show the impact, show the, the numbers of people you’ve fed or the number of shoes you’ve given away or the an animals you’ve saved, tell stories of how life change happened because someone gave. And so that’s what I mean by account, it’s as easy as just showing a little impact. It could be numbers, it could be stories, it could be anything that really gets that point across and keeps people wanting to learn more about how their gift, um went to work.

[00:35:46.87] spk_0:
And Maya Hope example, you used kind of incorporated the two into, into ask and also account, you know, by showing what the impact would be for your $10 monthly gift. You have another example, maybe of a, uh, of a, of a impact, an account that, that stays with

[00:37:09.82] spk_2:
you. Yeah. You know, there’s always, you know, nonprofits do a good job of kind of some year end annual reports that maybe you get in the spring or after the fiscal year and that’s not really what I’m talking about. Um, you know, I just got an, an, um, an email from a nonprofit I support. And it said in a very informal term, you know, in a, in a very informal tone, y’all really stepped up because you gave you, um, provided money for this many teens in this program and you helped dig a well at this site in Africa and you did this and you did this and you did this and it was about six bullet points of what I did and it, I know that my, whatever, my $25 I gave or whatever didn’t do all those things. But it, but addressed it, it said corporately because you gave these things happened. And so I think those are, that’s just a really quick, easy in my inbox. It took me two minutes to read it or less. Uh, but I, that stuck in my mind and I was like, yeah, ok, my money went to work and it did all these things. That’s really amazing. So that’s what I mean by account that doesn’t have to be a large, you know, overly processed brochure mailed, you know, that kind of thing. It can be stories of impact, it can be one on one. You know, I’m sitting across to you from coffee and, and I wanna tell you about somebody who came through our door and was hungry or thirsty and how, you know how we helped them. It’s as easy as that, that’s a count

[00:37:38.12] spk_0:
and you distinguish it from the, uh, the annual report

[00:37:56.31] spk_2:
and, and, and that, that is an impact report. Yeah. And that, I mean, I think that that’s important too. That’s a really great way to show um in a very large format how to, you know, you’re accounting for those donations that are entrusted to you. It’s intimidating for so many nonprofit professionals to think. Oh, I have to knock out an annual report. It’s important you should do it. But throughout the year use these little opportunities to show um that you’re accounting for those donations.

[00:38:12.69] spk_0:
Ok. Anything else? Uh accounting, accounting

[00:38:26.79] spk_2:
wise, well, acknowledge an account, makeup stewardship. Good stewardship means donor retention, right? So that’s, that’s the end goal, donor retention. They want those donors to come back for their second gift and their third

[00:38:29.64] spk_0:
gift. Yeah, because we know that acquiring a new donor costs us so much more than retaining. And uh yeah, our retention rates are very poor, right? Like 20% or something, the 80% of donors leave after the first gift.

[00:38:44.09] spk_2:
Oh, yeah,

[00:38:44.86] spk_0:
17% is our retention rate or something. It’s very, very pitifully low.

[00:38:51.26] spk_2:
So for yeah, you’re bringing in 10 donors and eight of them are turning around and never coming back. But the statistics show that if you have repeat donations. So those people who give second um make their second gift and third gift, their retention rate is closer to that 60% level. So those are the kind of numbers that you really want to, to um report on. You really want to keep your eye on as you are creating your fundraising strategy for the year.

[00:39:19.49] spk_0:
And that’s our uh again, right? Our, our fifth, our fifth a of awesome fundraising is again,

[00:40:10.49] spk_2:
again, yeah, repeat. It’s, it’s just repeat. So as you repeat the cycle, you know, you’re focusing not only on attracting new donors, right? But making your organization attractive to your current supporters. So you’re engaging them, you’re inviting them, you are starting that conversation and just keeping that conversation going and you keep that cycle going year over year. We have um one woman who runs an organization who’s in our fundraising coaching and she shared with me that they have an organizational commitment to ensure that any supporter receives at least two communication touch points before they’re asked again. So that is just a framework that you can have as part of your organizational practices and really just kind of keep that in the back of your mind. So if you’re not over asking, um now there are seasons that are very ask heavy like year end fundraising. You might feel like you’re really, really asking a lot during that time of year and that’s ok. Just make sure that you’re balancing out your communication touch points throughout the year so that they’re not all ask heavy,

[00:40:27.79] spk_0:
you’d probably like to see an annual plan.

[00:40:29.98] spk_2:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Communications

[00:40:32.17] spk_0:
marketing plan.

[00:40:34.14] spk_2:
And when you’re mapping out that plan, keep those five A’s in mind and just make sure that you’re, that you’re plugging touch points in that, that apply to those throughout the year.

[00:40:45.52] spk_0:
Anything else, Carrie, you wanna, uh, you wanna leave us with could be, could be outside the five days of awesome fundraising if, if you like anything. Uh, um,

[00:41:15.80] spk_2:
yeah, I say, you know, now is really the best time to shore up some of those good fundraising practices to really um take time to say, ok, what am I doing right now? Have I done a good job of, you know, accounting for the donations people have given to me. Have I taken time to say thank you. Um And that was a really good time to really assess that and make up for a backlog if you haven’t before we get ready for that year end fundraising. So that will help your organization stand out in your supporters’ minds when it’s, when it’s time to ask again. But I think now is a very important time to really make sure that you’re aligned for all that’s ahead in the coming months.

[00:41:40.81] spk_0:
Kara Ger with A P, not with A B No, she’s the uh fundraising coach for donor box. You’ll find her on linkedin. You’ll find the company, of course, you know, because uh they’re graciously sponsoring nonprofit radio, you know, that the company is at donor Boxx dot org. Kara, thank you very much. For sharing. Thanks so much.

[00:42:08.78] spk_2:
Oh, it’s been such a pleasure, tony. Thanks so much for having me next week.

[00:42:15.72] spk_1:
We don’t know, but it’ll be a good one. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:42:19.01] spk_0:
I’d beit, you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:42:31.82] spk_1:
Were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org. I love

[00:42:40.97] spk_0:
that alliteration. And by the way, when I said tough, I didn’t mean tough for you to say I meant too bad. You gotta say it

[00:43:03.87] spk_1:
too bad yet to say. Try to say it five times fast, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising for, for your nonprofit. Our train is Claire Myer. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is like Scott Stein.

[00:43:24.35] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for July 31, 2023: Giving Circles

 

Sara LomelinGiving Circles

What are giving circles, when did they begin, how do they work, why do they shift power dynamics, and where’s their value for your nonprofit? Sara Lomelin has made these spread throughout the world as CEO of Philanthropy Together.

 

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[00:00:25.92] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite Heb Domino podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be stricken with mono neuritis if you caused me pain because you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with the highlights.

[00:01:19.70] spk_1:
Thanks, tony. This week we have giving circles. What are giving circles? When did they begin? How do they work? Why do they shift power dynamics and where’s their value for your nonprofit? Sarah Loin has made these spread throughout the world as ceo of philanthropy together on Tony’s take two. Thank you were sponsored by donor box with intuitive fundraising software from donor boxx. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor Boxx dot org. Here is giving circles.

[00:02:14.39] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to welcome Sarah Loland to nonprofit radio. She believes that everyone, everyone can be a philanthropist, a philanthropy disruptor. Sarah has traveled the world, speaking about the power of collective giving, she’s an expert in diversifying philanthropy as founding ceo of philanthropy together. Sarah is growing a movement of people powered philanthropy to fund grassroots nonprofits shift power dynamics and promote widespread philanthropy. She’s on the National Council of the Women’s Philanthropy Institute at Indiana University’s Lily Family School of philanthropy and the board of Directors of Giving Tuesday and battery powered. Her company is at philanthropy together dot org and she’s at Sarah underscore Lome. Welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:26.68] spk_2:
Sarah. Thank you so much, tony. It’s a pleasure to be here with you and I love how you start the, the, the energy of how you start the podcast because, you know, um I’m like that and sometimes I feel like I’m the, you know, the person with all the energy in the world and i it’s very refreshing to, to see you there. Well, thank

[00:03:31.10] spk_0:
you very much. Yeah, I, I’m, I’m not one of these. Uh I’m very excited to have Sarah Loin with me today. My excitement, you know, that’s, that, that’s not, that, that, to me, that’s not excitement. So, yes, my pleasure. Uh Yes, high energy, both of us, high energy. So giving circles, giving circles. This is so interesting to me. I wanted to speak to you and then we were on a panel together and then your associate reached out to me and asked if I asked if I would have you as a guest. And I was thinking, yeah, I’ve been trying to, I’ve been, uh it’s, I’ve been on my to do list for maybe six months or so. So, uh I’m grateful that all these factors brought us together giving circles a, a around the pandemic. Is that, is that where they got started or is it before

[00:03:35.09] spk_2:
then? Well, ok. Well,

[00:03:38.09] spk_0:
ok. Oh, well, they go back hundreds of years. I know that too. Ok, that’s true. All right. Giving acquaintance with giving circles, please. I’m talking too much.

[00:05:03.05] spk_2:
No, no, no, no, no, you’re, you’re fine and, you know. Yeah, let’s start with what, what is the giving circle? Right? So again, circle is, you know, a group of people with shared values that get together to create change is um a very effective form of philanthropy that has existed, you know, for many, many, many, many years, they are not new, they are not American, they have existed, you know, the whole idea idea of people banding together to give together is as old as humanity itself. So, you know, there are giving circles all over the world in many, many different cultures. Um Here in the US, the, the the model of a giving circles, as we know, it kind of started getting some spotlights around the eighties. And uh most given circles here in the United States are led by women. So 70% of given circles are led by women. And to this date, like the last research around giving circles, the last, the last landscape research uh was done in 2016. And we saw in that research that there were about 100 and 50,000 people involved in about 1600 given circles at that point that had donated $1.3 billion in the past couple of decades. And that’s throughout,

[00:05:14.01] spk_0:
that’s throughout the world

[00:05:15.84] spk_2:
that, no, that’s only us. Oh, that’s us.

[00:05:18.97] spk_0:
16, 1600 giving circles $1.3 billion. Yeah. How many people, how many people in those six

[00:06:40.87] spk_2:
150,000? Ok. So, the great thing is that now, you know, because when you think about research of 2016, it feels like it’s, you know, from 100 years ago, we are just, you know, we’re in the middle of uh updating that landscape research. Actually, the, the, um the survey just closed at the end of May. So we will have the new, the new report in a few months. And, uh you know, are we know anecdote anecdotically that there are many, many more giving circles and many more people uh involved in them. And uh and we would just want to have, you know, the, the numbers to prove it. But to go back to your question around the pandemic, the pandemic was uh a great moment for giving circles in a, in, in a weird way, right? Uh Because a lot of people, I mean, what all of us were stuck at home and many people were thinking, OK, what is, what is mine to give? Right? I don’t want to feel helpless. What can I do from my living room? And we saw many hidden circles getting started uh that didn’t have, you know, geographic barriers. So I will be contacting my cousin in, you know, Ohio and my nephew in New York. And we were started giving circles uh you know, to support different causes. So there were many given circles that were started during the pandemic.

[00:07:05.83] spk_0:
You like to talk about the, either I, I some place I saw four someplace I saw 54 to 5 features or, or like sort of steps of, of your, your giving circles. So let’s talk about those, either four or five, however you break it down.

[00:07:22.63] spk_2:
Yes. So yes, what do you need to have a uh a, a giving circle, right? Because the giving circle model is super flexible. You and that’s the beauty of it. You can, it’s

[00:07:42.22] spk_0:
like, it’s like, it’s like giving Tuesday. It’s no surprise that you’re on the board of giving Tuesday. There’s a lot more nonprofits involved in giving Tuesday than I’m sure they can quantify. Uh it’s, it’s flexible, it’s open ended. They give you some tools and then you go,

[00:11:19.04] spk_2:
so you go, you go, you know, you will, you will, you will set the rules that you know, fit with your group, right? So, but there are certain things that you should have. So the first of all is a sense of belonging, right? Create a sense of belonging. This is not solo. Phil is collective giving. So you need a group a group which share values that gets together and you know, they discuss their individual values of the members, you know, what are those values um that guide your giving right and find between the group, what are the common values that will guide the, the group? Um After you talk about, you know, the the values that will guide you giving us a group, then you open a space for discourse and this is something that I love about giving circles because it’s a very good way to practice democracy for us. Uh Like right now, you know how many times we don’t even talk to our neighbors anymore, right? We have become very, that the world has become very polarized. And a given circles, a giving circle creates an opportunity for people with different backgrounds to get together and hear different perspectives and get behind the cause even if they think, you know, very differently in a lot of ways so that you open a space for this course. Uh the group will, you know, decide on a cause that they want to support and they will start, you know, evaluating organizations or, you know, initiatives or leaders that they want to support. So that’s kind of the second step. And then the third step is to give with trust. There’s a lot of trust inside, you know, the giving circle model. Why there is um you know, the pooled money or everybody’s pulling their, their, their funds before they even know where the money is going, right? So there is trust in the process, there is trust with one another with the members of the group. And the whole idea is that that trust will get transferred to the leaders on the ground. Because at the end of the day, you and I and all the audience knows that who knows what the community needs is, the community and the leaders working with the community, not the donors, the donors, we don’t know, we need the are the leaders on the ground to guide us, right? So what we want every given circle is to really create a trusting relationship with their, with organizations that they are going to support. And we always say that we need to give us if we give, we were giving to a family member, right? When you look people in the eyes, when you build an authentic relationship with the organization or the cause that you want to support things change. And II I know you, you know this, but that from all the billions of dollars of philanthropic dollars, the, you know, the majority of the funding goes to just 5% of the nonprofits, right? It goes to the big large nonprofits living so many nonprofits. I under

[00:11:34.95] spk_0:
I think you said in uh in your ted talk, 88% goes to 5% 5% of the, the the largest 5% of nonprofits. 88% of the, of, of, of the, that’s in incredible of the gifts in the US. Yeah. That’s, uh that’s staggering.

[00:14:04.75] spk_2:
Yes. Like, you know, if you think about like, uh women and girls issues, right? Only 1.4% I think it is right now goes to women and girls issues. If you think about women of color, women and girls of color, it’s not even 1% you know, for the LGBT Q community is one, it’s 0.3% of philanthropic dollars go to support those causes. So it’s like, you know, it’s on all of us to change that. So going back to the steps of the of the giving circle, you know, giving with trust. So, you know, after the the giving circle gets together and they decide and they discuss and they come to a decision of where they’re going to give their gift and they give it the fourth step. And for me, the most important is to, to act in abundance, right? To don’t let’s not just stop with the financial contribution, but go beyond the dollars. So we always say in given so-called, you know, uh language or lingo that we give our five tes, we give our time, our treasure, our testimony, our ties and our talent, right? And so that is the whole idea how can we as given circle members be elevating all the work that the causes that we care about too. And for example, talking about you know, your ties, each person is part of different networks, right? You are part of, you know, your family, you are part of, you know, a company or you know, a nonprofit, you are part of a community opening doors to these nonprofits and nonprofits that you care about, the costs that you care about and put it in front of your networks. Sometimes it’s a lot more important than a grant that you can give or a donation that you can give. Also, you know, elevating the message of nonprofits for something as simple as I am going to subscribe to this nonprofit newsletter. I’m going to, you know, share uh their event on social media. You know, we, we start creating visibility for those small nonprofits that are, you know, totally invisible for.

[00:14:23.92] spk_0:
Yeah, they, they don’t, they don’t get the attention. Yeah. All right. I, I have a, I have a bunch of questions. I wanted you to, I want you to explain through, you said we’re, we’re pulling our money before we know where the, where, where it’s gonna go. So I, I understand that trust. Um it’s also a little risky. Like I would be, I see I would be a bad giving circle member because if it didn’t, if the money didn’t go where I voted for, because I assume we’re voting. If it didn’t go to the vote cause I voted for, I’d be like, oh, I’m not, I, I mean, I wouldn’t pull my money out. I would, but I would be so upset but I, you didn’t go for my cause. So I would be a bad giving circle member. II, I think I would be a bad one.

[00:16:10.07] spk_2:
Tony. The whole idea of a giving circle to be part of a giving circle is that you are putting your individual decision in the back burner because you are deciding to be part of a group. So you, I I, you know, I managed many giving circles throughout the years. Um and I always said during grants night to the members, like please come with an open heart and an open mind because maybe that organization that you are rooting for is not going to get the crap, but you need to leave the room today feeling happy with the decision of the group because you are part of this group, right? And, and yes, you know, and you will have time to lobby and to, you know, advocate for, for the organization that you care about and maybe it’s not going to happen this time, but maybe in the next grand grand cycle, it is going to happen. And again, you’re not about giving circle member. There are other, there are some given circles that actually allow um the the the the members to I’m making up numbers. But for example, you’re going to give, you know, $1000 each member is going to give $1000 the moment, uh, the grants are allocated, uh, 800 is going to go to the decision of the group, but you will still, will have a small amount that you can give to the organization for your choice. So again, you can, you can figure out the rules that. Oh,

[00:16:36.33] spk_0:
ok. So hybrid, right. Ok. All right. So I, I wouldn’t, you know, I’m, I’m exaggerating but I would, I would, I would support the, I would support the decision of the group. OK. But there is a lot, there is a lot of trust. You are. Uh do, do I, I guess this is a question for the each individual circle too. Like does everybody have to give the same amount?

[00:16:47.59] spk_2:
Very good question. And then if you different

[00:16:49.85] spk_0:
amounts, do you get a, you get more votes? Like do you get, if you give 20% of the, the total, do you get 20% of the vote or do you just get one vote? How we can make, we can make that all up, right? We could do it

[00:19:29.14] spk_2:
ourselves. Yes. Because for example, there are many given circles that, you know, there’s a set donation, right? And everybody gives the same. So everybody has one vote. There are other given circles that have um different donation levels in terms of maybe um they’re trying to attract, you know, younger people. So if you’re in your 20 you give this amount, if you’re in your thirties you give this amount if you’re in your forties, this amount or also, you know, in terms of career uh uh development, um there are other given circles that have a floor of the nation like, ok, the floor is $500 but there’s no ceiling. So maybe some members are giving, you know, 5000 or 10,000, but they are still get one vote. And with that extra donation, they are supporting, getting other voices into the given circle and kind kind of sponsoring part of the membership of another given circle member, but they still get one vote. And there are other given circles that do what you mentioned, like there are different membership levels. And if you know, if I’m at the lower level, I get one boat. If I’m on the second, you know, tier, I get two boats. If I’m on the third tier, I get three boats. But that I would say is a very few number of giving circles do that. The majority is, you know, it’s one person, one vote doesn’t matter how much people are giving. There’s another super cool model that um more progressive giving circles are doing that, you know, talking about trust. This is very rooted in trust. Uh There’s a giving circle in New York called Rat Fund and uh it’s a group of friends and what they do is the donation amount is one per it’s 10% of their income. So there is a lot of trust among them because I’m not going to ask, hey, tony, show me your W-2 like, you know, it’s or your tax return, right? It’s like, you know, there is trust that everybody is given what they are able to give and there are also other given circles that there is not a set amount is OK. Everybody gives, you know, something that it’s, you know, significant for you and

[00:20:21.30] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Those are all interesting. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Um You talked about AAA relationship with the organization where the, the money is going or maybe in some cases where the majority of money is going because you said you could reserve a little, some circles might reserve a little bit for individual gifts. Um So are we inviting, we are inviting nonprofits to come and present? So the, is that a way of doing it? And then like, how do you open this relationship with the? You don’t just, you don’t just send a check? It’s a lot more than that. Obviously, even your, even your last, your last thing, you know, your last step, you said engagement, uh you know, beyond, you know, giving five Ts and it’s not just treasure. So, but talk about the relationship and might you have nonprofits come and talk to the, make their

[00:21:14.93] spk_2:
pitch in a lot of cases. Yes. Yes. And we don’t call it a pitch because, you know, we want to get away from, you know, kind of the, the, the, the, the shark, the Shark Tank, we don’t want the shark tank competition. But yes, you know, uh, the, in a lot of cases, nonprofits get invited to present to the group and, um, in most cases when a nonprofit gets invited to present it because they are going to get a grant. Um, you know, thankfully, uh, the, the more and more I see given circles is that everybody is compensating nonprofits for their time. So if they are asking a nonprofit to fill out, you know, uh a proposal or come to present or whatever is because they are going to get something. Um We work a lot with groups uh to, you know, talk about trust based philanthropy and how you can, you know, do a lot of the homework as a donor, as a giving circle in the background without, you know, taxing the nonprofit with OK, we’re going to, you know, a site visit and you have to deal with 50 of us. You know,

[00:21:38.45] spk_0:
it turns into a, a grant, it turns into a grant proposal then, yeah. Yes.

[00:23:43.71] spk_2:
Yes. So, but you know, to your point, yes. You know, in a lot of cases the nonprofits get invited to present. So there is this, you know, like face to face, right? And I can tell you, for example, the um in the case of I work eight years at the Latino Community Foundation in San Francisco. And uh and I, and I started the Latino Giving Circle Network there. And so I, I did, I, I was, you know, part of many, many, many grants nights and they were incredible because, you know, the moment you, the moment people hear directly from, you know, the, the executive directors of a nonprofit and have a chance to like, really, you know, kind of like, feel what, what the work entails. It’s, it’s another, another dynamic, right? And, and also, you know, it’s a lot of um I’m not going to say humanizing because it’s not humanizing, it’s getting closer to the work. And uh many times the day after grants night, I had some nonprofit leaders that were, that were coming to present calling me saying, hey, can I join the giving circle like as a donor? Like I love this and many of them joined and I did, on the other hand, many giving circle members that they, you know, they started volunteering with the nonprofits, became board members of the nonprofit or, you know, took some of the trainings, like we have been supporting an organization that um supports um survivors of domestic violence. I have had four members of my guinea circle on that board and they started as volunteers. And you know, so for nonprofits, this is, you know, a big opportunity opportunity to also engage more people around your local community. It’s time for a

[00:24:38.37] spk_1:
break donor box. What makes donor box stand out. We heard it last week from Jenna Lynch. It’s a fundraising platform built with fundraisers for fundraisers. They have the Ultra Swift donation form that makes giving four times faster and it cuts down on drop off. They’re a comprehensive fundraising platform along with the Ultra Swift donation form. There’s event ticketing, peer to peer text to give and the new donor box live kiosk so your folks can swipe tap or dip to pay at events. They’re committed to customer support and they understand nonprofits because they all have nonprofit backgrounds. Donor box helping you help others. Donor Boxx dot org. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:27:55.53] spk_0:
Thank you, Kate. And my thanks to everyone who has brought us to 650 shows and the 13th anniversary last week’s show was great fun. But I wanna amplify my, my gratitude to, to you, to our listeners, our 13,000 plus listeners each week. I’m glad, so glad that you’re getting value that you’re bringing subjects to your CEO to your vice president or to your board that we’re, we’re just introducing new thinking for you, even if you don’t need to share it with anybody, just so glad that we are able to give you value. And I’m so grateful that you’re a listener. Grateful to our, our insiders. You know, there’s about 1000 1100 people that I email each Thursday that welcome me into their inbox each week. And uh And I’m grateful. Thank you to our insiders. The guests, the guests, the show would be nowhere with the guests. These smart savvy, bright folks who come, they share their time, their wisdom, their thinking for your benefit. They, they, they want to do the same thing that you are doing, helping small and midsize nonprofits. That, that’s, that’s where you’re all situated, that’s where you’re situated. You’re the ones I’m channeling each week thinking about who should be the guest and what would you want to know from that guest? Uh And remember it’s, it’s not just the time on the show, but it’s the time that the guests spend working with me to, to narrow the topics schedule, you know, back and forth all that. So they, they devote a lot of time. My thanks to our probably over 1000 now uh guests and the team, the great team, uh Kate as associate producer, Clare, as creative producer, music from Scott Stein, Mark Silverman, our web guy, Susan Chavez, our social manager. They’re both excellent. Both been with me for many years and I should have given a special shout out when I was talking about the guests. I should have given a special shout to Jean Jean Takagi. Of course, our legal contributor, Amy Sample Ward, our technology contributor because they just come month after month show after show, so generous with their time. All those folks, all of you folks. My thanks, my thanks for getting us to 651 shows and, uh, this week and the 13th anniversary, thank you. That is Tony’s Take two Kate.

[00:27:57.55] spk_1:
We’ve got, but loads more time now let’s get back to giving circles with Sarah Loma.

[00:28:06.82] spk_0:
I could see how these giving nights would be very moving. I, I, I’m sure, I’m sure there’s tears in some, you know, tears of joy. You know, the collective came together the, the, the bad apples like tony-martignetti, you know, he got put aside

[00:28:21.59] spk_2:
and, you know, he

[00:28:23.02] spk_0:
got asked to leave, he got asked to leave and that, no, no, no. But

[00:28:27.60] spk_2:
uh I could

[00:28:31.36] spk_0:
see, I could see how these would be very moving events.

[00:28:59.54] spk_2:
Yes. No, totally. One time. Imagine, like we, um we uh hearing from an organization that uh works with refugees and, uh, and does, you know, uh legal help, et cetera, et cetera. And um we were working with them around, you know, an advocacy campaign and they were doing like a uh registering to vote uh campaign, right? With young people. And this young guy came to present and he, he was undocumented and he was, you know, leading a lot of these campaigns in colleges, getting people to register to vote because he said, you know, be, be my voice. I don’t have a voice, I cannot vote but you can. So, you know, those kind of things. It’s like, of course there were tears in this, you know, in these nights? Yeah.

[00:29:28.81] spk_0:
Uh Is there a directory of giving circles that, that folks can look to see if there is one in their community or, or more than one

[00:30:35.92] spk_2:
great question? Yes, we have on our website which is philanthropy together dot org. We have the global directory of giving circles. So you can put your zip code or you know, some keywords. Um And you will find giving circles near you or you know, around the cause that you care about. If you don’t find one, you are invited to start your own and we offer free trainings every single month. Um It’s a 90 minute training to, it’s called launch pad, launch pad for you that gives you all the tools to start your own giving circle. And not only that because you, you may think, well, you know, 90 minutes is like you get all this information and then what um you are invited after that to be part of, you know, we do monthly group coaching, one on one, you know, coaching sessions with our staff, everything is free of charge. We have a donate what you give, what you can or what you want kind of model because what we want at the end of the day is to have more people engaged in, in, in giving.

[00:30:55.13] spk_0:
Are you finding community foundations are sometimes supporting these giving circles or, or spon sponsoring or encouraging

[00:32:14.35] spk_2:
these uh great question too. So a lot of um there’s a lot of giving circles that are, that are hosted by community foundations um because, you know, uh to in order to manage donations, right? A lot of giving circles are part of a community foundation. They are a program of, of a community foundation or hosted by them, like fiscally sponsored by a community foundation. Many community found nations have seen the, you know, the benefit of having given circles when they are trying to also grow and strengthen that ecosystem around them, right in their community, many very tiny community foundations when there is not like a big culture of philanthropy in their community find that starting giving circles, it’s a great way to, you know, to attract people and to teach them around philanthropy. And also for a lot of community foundations when they are trying to diversify their, you know, the their, their community of, of donors and, and people that participate in other programs. So we also offer a program for community foundations for Jewish Federations for any faith, you know, uh based organization or philanthropic um intermediary that’s called launch pad for hosts. And that one, we offer it once a year. So it’s uh it’s usually in February and it’s like a six week um program.

[00:32:30.31] spk_0:
Oh, that’s more extensive. OK. But

[00:32:32.19] spk_2:
yes, yes, because we go through everything and, and you know, even the, the, the what we want is a win-win situation for the host organization and the giving circle. So there’s, you know, a lot of nuances there.

[00:32:58.48] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. More extensive for the host. Yeah. Organizations. Um, are you finding many gifts to individuals? Like, maybe it’s a, maybe it’s an artist or, uh, you know, or, or a startup nonprofit, you know, or someone who wants to start a nonprofit. But they’re, they’re not there yet. Are you finding many donations there?

[00:33:49.79] spk_2:
More and more? And actually that is something that changed during the pandemic, right? Because when we saw a lot of mutual aid societies, you know, popping up um a lot of giving circles uh so that, ok, you know, we are giving to nonprofits. Yes, but we also want to give to individuals. Um There is a great network of giving circles that it’s called the Awesome Foundation. Um and the Awesome Foundation gives $1000 at a time to awesome projects and most of those projects, they are individuals and, and, and leaders and initiatives. So the money gets moved really fast and, and they have chapters all over the US. Um And Canada,

[00:35:06.26] spk_0:
I could see how this would be such a boost to that. You suggested, you know, giving uh creating a AAA giving culture in a, in a small town or, you know, or, or, or diversifying. These are, these are points you just made, I’m just amplifying them, you know, uh encouraging folks of color to come together. Uh I know from your TED talk, you know, there are, there are uh uh there are, there are uh Pacific Asian Pacific Islander giving circles. There are Black giving circles. There’s all around all kinds of faiths. You, you mentioned Judaism. Yeah. Uh Your TED talk I think mentions Muslim Muslim giving circles. Um So, you know, bringing people together in the, in the community and of course, you know, it could be nationwide too. You had said, you know, your point earlier about the, the, the being the virtual possibility. But, but I love the idea of bringing folks together in the community because they, because they know what, you know, they want, they know what the needs are, they, they, and, and, and we’re all gonna have to sacrifice a little bit. But in the end, we all come together for where each of our, like each of our individual giving circles intersects with everybody else’s giving c individual giving circle. And that’s where the, that’s where the larger giving circle is giving at the intersection of all our individual circles.

[00:37:53.85] spk_2:
Totally. And also, you know, I feel that the, the, one of the most important parts of giving circles is that giving circles function as seat, you know, seed funders for a lot of small grassroots nonprofits, right? So that those small, you know, local nonprofits that are, you know, totally invisible from big philanthropy. They may get some money here and there from small, you know, local businesses, they get, you know, some individual donors. But a giving circle is that kind of, you know, seed funder for different projects. And then many small nonprofits lever touch that because if they, you know, they have been supported by a giving circle for a couple of years, they can go to a foundation and said, hey, you know, by the way, this and this given circle has been supporting us, it’s like a seal of approval too, right? And also, you know, something that I wanted to mention that I feel that it’s key, more and more nonprofits are just focusing on the big gifts and I get it. You know, I’m, I’m a fundraiser. So I know that sometimes you think like, ok, there are 24 hours on the day, you know, or we need to, I need to focus on, on the big gift instead of the little gifts, right? But that I think it’s a mistake and why is that we need as nonprofits, we need to diversify our funding because what is going to happen when you’re a big gift, changes, you know, changes uh their mind and you are going and there that big gift is not going to come and you are in trouble if you take the time to really create a big number of supporters, a big ecosystem of everyday givers around your organization, you, you know that that is, that has a ripple effect and it’s going to be great in the future, you know, every time people come and say well you know give in circles. Yeah, they’re cute. No, we’re not cute. It’s we’re awesome. We’re really powerful because you know, engaging, especially younger, the younger generations, right? If you get people, young people passionate about your cause that young person in 10 years, in 20 years, that may be you know, the new whatever whatever entrepreneur, the director of ex corporation and we and but we we need to start somewhere, right? So telling everybody to focus on everyday givers is key,

[00:38:10.64] spk_0:
this is empowerment, you know, this is, this is what, what we’re doing. Uh nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the the other 95% this is who you’re talking about. Because 88% of the gifts go to 5% of the nonprofit. So we’re talking to the same audience, the other 95% are having to split up 12% of all the, of all the formalized giving and, and, and institutional giving and we’re, we’re trying to democratize here.

[00:38:41.02] spk_2:
Yeah. And also, you know, for, for the fabric of our society, I feel like because again, like if we, if we keep telling people that can donate $50.20 dollars, uh you know, your gift is not important.

[00:38:48.89] spk_0:
That that’s terrible, that’s terrible practice.

[00:39:01.10] spk_2:
Uh Yeah, because you know, they will come, you know, the bill the next billion or to, to give the billions and decide what is worthy of funding. It’s bad because then we have people that are not going to be engaged in giving and in generosity and in volunteering and that is dangerous for a country.

[00:40:52.87] spk_0:
I could take it a step further. And, you know, because my work is planned giving fundraising and I am routinely saying to clients and to folks that I’m training in webinars that you’re small donors that are consistent that you. Uh and I don’t care if the average gift I’ll give even smaller than you. I don’t care if their average gift is $5. But if they’ve been doing that for many years, like eight gifts out of 10 years or for some nonprofits, it could be 20 gifts in 15 or 20 years. But the, but at a, at a smaller dollar level, they are a terrific prospect for a planned gift because they’re always thinking about you and sometimes maybe multiple times in one year. It’s not even just a single single gift in per year. But those small dollar donors are your, are your very, very good plan giving prospects. Of course, your wealthy donors are too. We’re not excluding them naturally. But, but those small dollar donors who give consistently and do it over many years, they become your planned giving donors and the average, the average gift in a will in the US is $35,000. Nobody, nobody leaves $5 in their will. So, uh so it’s all the, all the more important to be cultivating and encouraging small dollar donors. You know, and some people like to say, modest gifts. I, I, you know, I just say they’re small and, and we’re not commenting on the person’s character, they’re not small people, they just give small gifts. Uh so call it what it is small gift, but they are still, they are still valuable and you’re absolutely right in the future, they can become very, very different types of donors. And my point is they could become very good planned giving donors

[00:41:04.37] spk_2:
totally, totally. And also, you know, for me giving circles are again this like a civic engagement, incubators for sure. Yeah.

[00:41:10.87] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:41:27.15] spk_2:
civic engagement, incubators, people that participate in giving circles, I mean, there is research behind it that people tend to give more even, I mean, in the given circle and then outside the giving circle and they tend to participate more civically, you know, being part of their neighborhood association, being part of the PT A being part, you know, and that’s what we want, we need engaged people, we cannot, you know, deal in this time with, you know, people just looking at their phones and that’s it.

[00:42:08.78] spk_0:
Yeah. No, they, you’re right, engagement, community engagement, civic engagement. You’ve got me thinking about, so we’re talking about giving circles and planned giving. I’m thinking, what about planned Giving circles? I don’t know if there’s something that I don’t know. Well, but planned giving is all individual like, it’s my, you know, it will be based on my will or my life insurance. But we’d have to think about a way to for there to be a collective planned gift.

[00:42:47.93] spk_2:
But you know what you might be on something because for example, we could start planned, like, and this could be great for nonprofits around, you know, a specific, like maybe ethnicity or faith or, you know, a specific issue. It’s like you may like those board members or those, you know, recurrent um donors, right? Like they can become part of like a learning community, like a given circle and they can be a pledge, right? They can be kind of like a pledge of a, right? They, they

[00:43:27.20] spk_0:
could be that they each make their own commitment but again, they’re, they’re coming together to support the community and to learn together and share ideas together and then they each make their own, their own commitment. But there’s, there’s still the, there’s still the collectivism of, of a giving circle just that the, the, the, the the ultimate gifts are, you know, I’m, I’m doing, I’m doing this one and or maybe they would come together and say, you know, we love this cause. Well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna devote some of my estate, my, some of my will 5% or 2% to this cause and let’s all do it together. I mean, there, there could be that it could be that kind of collectivism too. So I have to think planned giving circles. I don’t write off that idea that, no, no, no,

[00:43:31.15] spk_2:
no, no, no, no, I’m going to actually think more about

[00:43:52.34] spk_0:
plan giving circles. Yeah, we should, we should talk more about that. Um, all right. What about other nonprofits? So, we, we talked about community foundations and how they could be enablers and hosts and sponsors but other nonprofits. Um, I mean, they could, they, you could encourage giving circles in your community. You could try to find the giving circles that are in your community already and maybe reach out to them. What, what, what do you see as the overlap between nonprofits and giving circles?

[00:46:27.32] spk_2:
Totally. So what we have seen is, you know, different nonprofits in, in a certain community working together, right? To create like, you know, again, what you want is to create a strong ecosystem of donors, right? So it’s not about competition, but maybe collaboration with other nonprofits. Um There are nonprofits that are starting giving circles to support their own nonprofit, right? And you may be thinking well, but then it’s not really a very, you know, traditional giving circle because they’re, the group is not deciding uh between different organizations. Yes. And they may be deciding among different projects. So there are some nonprofits that have different projects and they create given circles or donor circles inside, you know, their, their community. And uh and each, you know, each circle will support different projects inside the nonprofit. Um Also, um I mean, again, it’s a really uh uh some organizations, uh the way that, that the way that we have seen it is they’re starting giving circles, like, for example, if they have scholarships, right, uh if they are giving scholarships, but the scholarship uh amount is too large for a single donor. Well, you know, they are encouraging their, their community to create these giving struggles and kind of, you know, give together one scholarship. Um Yes, but, you know, we get uh we get uh calls from many nonprofits because yes, it is a very good way to, to create um this strong, you know, group of supporters because I am going to tell you that a given circle member is not your regular donor is, you know, is someone that is not passive, they are not going to send a check and call it a day. They will be a lot more involved and they will advocate a lot more. So that is, you know, that is the beauty of, of it. Um for some nonprofits, maybe they say my God, no, I don’t want to, you know, to love these people engaging. Um but for, for a lot of nonprofits, it’s something that is, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s working and we actually, because we get so many um calls from different nonprofits. Uh One of our projects for this summer is to tweak one of our programs, the one that we offer for community foundations, but tailor it for small and medium size nonprofits.

[00:46:48.44] spk_0:
So you have launch pad, you have launch pad training uh for like host, host training for small and midsize nonprofits.

[00:46:54.35] spk_2:
We will have it, we will have it in the fall. We’re working on it this summer to just like tweak the curriculum and we will have it in the fall. Ok.

[00:47:03.99] spk_0:
Ok. Uh What have I not asked you about that? Uh that you wanna, you want folks to know?

[00:50:05.79] spk_2:
Well, also, you know, we at philanthropy together um we are this umbrella organization and we work with all the networks of giving circles. So there are many, many networks of giving circles around the globe and here in the US. Um So, for example, you know, we talked about uh the faith based giving uh networks, right? The American Muslim Community Foundation amplifier, which is uh a net work of uh giving circles based on Jewish values. There are many networks of giving circles based on ethnicity. So the community investment network is around black and people of color given circles. Uh A PP uh Asian American Pacific Islanders in Philanthropy has uh given circles. Uh the Latino Community Foundation. Um they are political given circles. So um future now has a network of hundreds of political given circles. Um The women’s Given circles, there are many networks of women’s given struggles. So, Fios is a very strong one that, you know, encompasses thousands and thousands of women giving uh together women rights is another network of women’s giving circles that the donors are based in the US, but they give internationally. Um There is also 100 who care Alliance, which has hundreds of chapters. And the model is very easy to follow because it is 100 people given $100 every quarter. So they give, you know, at least $10,000 every quarter. And there are groups of only women, only men coed teenagers, we have seen a lot of teen of groups of teenagers giving together. So, you know, anyway, there’s many, many given circle networks that also if, if people can want to start a giving circle, I encourage everybody to look at the networks because they offer you, you know, support webinars community around the the different, you know, ethnicity or faith or, you know, values, right. Right. And the other thing I think the last thing will be that um this year we’re super excited because uh we added kind of a a second focus around collective giving. So we focused the first few years just on giving circles. Now we’re working also with collaboratives, so collaborative funds. Uh and these, you know, it’s groups of individual donors or institutional funders that get together to tackle the specific costs, right. And these collaboratives, they move from, you know, a million, a couple of million dollars to hundreds of million of million of millions. So we’re excited to, to be working with them too and, and, you know, kind of creating a community and a space for them to learn from one another.

[00:50:18.23] spk_0:
Some of those are, are combinations of individual and institutional funders. Yes. Oh, interesting.

[00:50:30.52] spk_2:
All right. Yes. Yes. Like for example, you know, Ted has the audacious audacious project and they um this year they granted $1 billion to 10 organizations and the donors are a combination of um individual donors or families and a couple of institutional donors. Yeah.

[00:51:09.34] spk_0:
Mm mm All right. Why don’t you just leave us with uh some, some uh inspiration around giving circles, some something positive. Uh Even if you’re just repeating something we’ve already said leave folks with uh something, something upbeat and, and empowering.

[00:51:29.71] spk_2:
Yes. OK. So don’t, don’t think of, you know, don’t think too much. It’s not rocket science like people, it’s not rocket science just do it. It’s, it’s a lot of fun and I feel that it’s also why, you know, uh people gravitate around giving circles because it’s a lot of fun. It’s, you know, is, is social, is community and we know that, you know, the issues and the problems of this world are overwhelming and huge giving should be joyful, the act of giving should be joyful and giving together is joyful. So, yeah, and you know, for whatever you need, reach out to us, you know, engage with us and, and thank you tony for, for having me,

[00:52:44.45] spk_0:
Sarah. She’s uh ceo of philanthropy together at philanthropy together dot org. Check out the uh launch pad training, whether you’re starting a uh whether you’re a starting on your own or your uh community foundation or, and then for the host training and then in the fall, there’ll be something for small and midsize nonprofits and the ongoing training all at uh all at philanthropy together dot org. And uh Sarah is at Sarah underscore lo Mein. Sarah. Thank you very much for sharing all this. I I love it. Thank you for, for your expertise. Thanks for your energy. Thanks for what you’re doing to empower communities and individuals to come together. Thank you very much.

[00:52:49.27] spk_2:
Thank you so much, tony and yes, you know, I’m going to put my arms like you put it because yes, thank you.

[00:53:06.56] spk_1:
Next week, leadership lessons with Steve Johns on his new book. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I’d beseech

[00:53:10.52] spk_0:
you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:53:28.73] spk_1:
We’re sponsored by Donor box with intuitive fundraising software from donor Boxx. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor Boxx dot org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate martignetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez, Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:53:45.68] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for July 17, 2023: Communications & Development Teams Working Better Together

 

Misty McLaughlin & Alice HendricksCommunications & Development Teams Working Better Together

Misty McLaughlin and Alice Hendricks close our 2023 Nonprofit Technology Conference coverage, as they reveal how these two teams can avoid the common conflicts and tensions, to come together collaboratively. They’re the principals and founders of Cause Craft Consulting.

 

 

 

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:34.85] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio, big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d suffer the embarrassment of mono aphasia if you uttered the word fail because you missed this week’s show. Here’s Kate, our new associate producer just promoted from announcer with highlights of this week’s show, Kate. Congratulations on your promotion.

[00:01:13.64] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony. I’m happy to be here and now communications and development teams working better together. Misty mclaughlin and Alice Hendricks close our 2023 nonprofit technology conference coverage as they reveal how these two teams can avoid the common conflicts and tensions to come together collaboratively. They’re the principals and founders of cause craft consulting on Tony’s take two.

[00:01:15.88] spk_0:
I finally have someone to blame.

[00:01:20.84] spk_1:
We’re sponsored by Donor box with intuitive fundraising software from donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org.

[00:01:34.89] spk_2:
Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 23 NTC 2023 nonprofit technology conference in Denver, Colorado, where we

[00:01:49.07] spk_0:
are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology

[00:01:50.04] spk_2:
strategy and implementation for nonprofits with me now at the, at the conference are Misty mclaughlin and Alice Hendricks. They are both principles and co founders of cause craft consulting, Misty. Welcome back.

[00:02:08.19] spk_3:
Welcome to non profit

[00:02:09.04] spk_4:
radio.

[00:02:10.13] spk_2:
Pleasure to have you both co founders, the

[00:02:11.96] spk_3:
principles. Thank

[00:02:18.51] spk_2:
you. Your session is communications and development team working better together. Alright, Alice, since you’re the first time non profit radio, why don’t you give us an overview of what’s, what’s out there between these two teams and why this is important,

[00:02:47.95] spk_4:
you know, tony, it’s a really important topic because over the 20 years that I’ve been in the sector working on both development and communications teams projects from a technology perspective, we’ve noticed that there’s often inherent conflict between those two teams primarily because their mission are very different. Development departments need to raise the money, communications departments need to get the word out and so nobody is doing anything wrong. They’re all living their jobs in the right way, doing the right thing. However, because of the inherent conflict, friction occurs between people and teams often don’t get along. They fight over resources, they don’t have good processes and that can lead to a feeling of discord between staff and organizations.

[00:03:17.40] spk_2:
Interesting. Okay, I, I was very interested to read this uh because I’ve not, I’ve not seen this but I’ve been a consultant for so many years. Um you know, I could see why I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know about it. I do plan giving consulting. So that’s a narrow niche within one of the two silos we’re talking about, well, hopefully not silos within one of the two teams that we’re talking about, you know, in development. Um So, yeah, I’m not aware of that, Misty, how does this conflict sometimes play

[00:04:06.19] spk_3:
out? Well, Tony, that’s a great question. So, um we have been seeing it for years but then we saw an article a few years ago in the Chronicle of Philanthropy kind of talking about what the implications of this phenomenon are because it is kind of, I think it’s reasonably well acknowledged that this happens sometimes to the point that those two teams don’t work together at all. And so you have kind of two separate pieces and they just decided we’re not going to work together. And then there are times that it’s actually a

[00:04:12.09] spk_2:
disaster. We can’t raise money if we can’t get the message

[00:04:25.54] spk_3:
out. Exactly. And we can’t, and we can’t get the message out if we don’t have that kind of core audience on board. Right? I mean, fundraising represents a significant audience of importance for the organization. So the Chronicle of Philanthropy did a piece about this and then we just continued to see it, continue to see it, see it play out in all these ways. And we decided to do some research about this. So our session is actually kind of presenting some of the results of that research. We heard from 85 organizations about what this looks like in their organizations and how it plays out from, I would say dynamics that are mildly ineffective and involve some minor friction to complete breakdowns.

[00:04:50.06] spk_2:
We’re not talking to each other. We’re not, we’re not going to send your messages or we’re not going to support your message. Support your messaging.

[00:05:14.57] spk_3:
Exactly. Or we’re going to circumvent the approval process and we’re just gonna send something out before you can stop us. And if it contradicts the mission or it contradicts, for example, like a shared messaging hierarchy. Oh, well, as long as I got my message to my audience and it happens on both sides, it’s no one’s at fault. I mean, people really in general, people aren’t devious, they want to work together. They sometimes just can’t figure out exactly how to make that happen. Um And then, you know, often what is just a kind of personal conflict blows up to be something happening more at a team level or more at the departmental level, leaders have a huge role to play in this. And if two leaders between those two departments don’t get along, it’s difficult for staff to kind of figure out how to navigate the

[00:05:39.74] spk_2:
President’s or something. Exactly. Um Is there uh do either of you have, well, you work, you work in the same company, you know, all the same, you have the same clients? I mean, is there a, I don’t mean to focus on the inflammatory. But is there, is there like a story of conflict, maybe, maybe like a good story of conflict and then later on, we could tell the epilogue where it came out, came out. Well, after cause craft consulting intervened. Is there a story like that?

[00:07:14.95] spk_4:
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s lots of stories like that. What we see often dynamics that happen because of this is delayed getting emails out the door or vetting process is just it’s going to take me four days to get back to you to approve the content or choose the photo or complaints about just the lack of collaborative working together. We also often see the leaders might not get along of these two departments, but staff themselves develop and forged relationships of trust amongst each other, which is great. You really want to have good, strong personal 1 to 1 relationships. In fact, in our research results, one of the ways that we saw people who responded, that mitigate the fact that the teams themselves weren’t getting along is that just they made friends with someone on the other team so that they needed a file update or some piece of collateral, they would ask their friend, which is wonderful because you have a trusted friend. But for us as process design consultants, we see that as a dysfunction, we see that as a lack of people really understanding what their role is, who’s supposed to be doing what, what lane they should stay in, what you can expect from someone and another team. So the really the solution to all of this is good, strong leadership, building trust and good process. So everyone is clear about what you’re supposed to do, what happens next and that helps mitigate the conflict. But yeah, I mean, it can be very hard to work in an organization where you don’t get along with others.

[00:08:56.77] spk_3:
One organization that we came across the international relief organization, so obviously a big part of their, their work is fundraising and engagement went in times of crisis, right. So rapid response, emergency response is huge for them. And it’s kind of the core source of their fundraising. Um the development department in the communications department sort of went through this period of years where they just couldn’t figure out how they were going to message in these moments and it would sort of be a simmering tension. Um And when it was a non conflict, exactly, it’s a core function of the organization. And so it would be a kind of a problem, but they would sort of come to some sort of agreement, but then a crisis would happen and they couldn’t get a message out the door in order to be able to fundraise around that message. And so they would miss the moment again and again and again, in these moments that they should have been coming together and pulling together as a team. So in that case, they brought us in to say, how can we get these two teams to work together? We want a message and comply completely different ways, particularly in these moments of crisis, we want to use the channels. So the digital channels, in particular, with this kind of hot spot of, well, who’s going to say one, an email and who gets to press the send button, who gets to have the final word on how we’re going to talk about this. Um And we went through a whole initiative to try and solve this and get them talking to each other. And it was a lot about getting them to use the same language and recognize each other’s expertise that they just come from different worlds. Somebody who responded to our survey said, communications is all about saying what the message that the organization needs to get out and development is all about trying to say what the donors want to hear. And those are just two completely different worldviews. And so when you can put those together and say, where’s the common ground in this? How can we represent our organizational priorities? And at the same time time, really translate that to words and language that really resonates with donors and causes them to act.

[00:09:47.72] spk_2:
Okay. So let’s start to get to some specifics that we can, we can recommend if you are uh suffering the symptoms that the two of you were talking about 55 minutes ago um disharmony and yeah, antagonism, frustration. All right. Um because we’re, we’re, we’re, yeah, we’re striving for harmony. We’re gonna leave disharmony behind and striving for harmony. Alright. Um you talk about a clear message prioritization, so deciding in advance, I guess this instead of me trying to guess Alice or Misty, you’re better. Alice is waving to Misty. So different

[00:10:11.08] spk_4:
in terms of doing a content strategy where it’s clear about what we’re trying to do and having things planned in advance. So we know what, how we will behave in any given situation. It’s governance, it’s a process governor project of understanding when this crisis is going to occur. If you’re an international relief organization and there’s a tsunami, what do you do having those plans already laid out? So it’s clear about what you’re supposed to do, what the other people on what other team is supposed to do. And that’s a process design. In our research we asked, is there any governance over the messaging? And most of the respondents said no, there might be some process or a shared calendar, but we really don’t have a way of knowing how to behave when something happens.

[00:10:40.61] spk_2:
Okay. What does this governance look like?

[00:11:39.72] spk_3:
That’s a great question. So governance can happen at a lot of a lot of different points in working together a lot of different points in that sort of relationship life cycle. So for example, when you have a project, making sure that if those teams are gonna be working together on, for example, a campaign or a long term body of work, or maybe there’s a new programmatic area that’s rolling out. You always start with a tool like a project charter or terms of reference as an international organizations, they call a charter terms of reference. Um But the idea is that you’re so together and you’re saying, okay, how are we going to talk about this? What is our organizational positioning, not just messaging but positioning? What is our relationship to this thing that’s happening part of the social problem? What’s our unique value proposition? And how are we comfortable talking about this as an organization? How are we not? That’s the content strategy piece that Alice was speaking to? What do we think the best channels to do that? And how when something happens around this, when there’s a big news event, when there’s something to respond to, how are are we going to work together? And that’s, you know, forever, how are we going to work together? But in this specific case, on this topic, how are we going to work

[00:11:46.52] spk_2:
together these workflows, workflow process? Exactly. All shared and agreed in

[00:12:32.68] spk_3:
advance. Exactly. And that everybody on the team knows, right. It’s not just an agreement that two leaders make everybody, individual contributors need to understand what they’re supposed to do. How do they feed into the system overall? So that they’re working hand in hand together. And a lot of the time, there are certain teams, for example, digital teams, they are forced to operate between communications and fundraising wherever they sit there, controlling channels that all these different parts of the organization need to use a lot of the time. That’s a starting place for forming some shared working agreements or some principles that are used in moments like this. There are a lot of other tools to. So for example, she calendars so that there is one shared view of every external communication that’s happening, whether it’s a fundraising ask or it’s a media piece coming out or it’s some sort of campaign, broad marketing campaign that there is one shared view and everyone gets a view of the whole of what the audience is seeing instead of a kind of micro departmental specific view,

[00:13:00.50] spk_2:
other other other processes that you can share that. Yeah.

[00:13:24.31] spk_3:
Yeah. So we have a whole list in our presentation of hard tools and I would say something like the calendar and the workflows, those are hard tools. Um There are also soft tools and I will just say for fairness purposes, these soft tools like work in any two departments that are having a breakdown. We were here two years ago where we were online two years ago at NTC talking about fundraising and it teams and frictions between those teams. There are lots of places, obviously, it’s not just limited to development and communications. But some examples of some of the soft tools would be um you know, doing shared planning activities. So doing your annual annual plans together, not doing separate departmental plans but saying, what do we want to accomplish this year? What does that look like?

[00:13:48.11] spk_2:
It’s an outside consultant? So what do I know from collaborative calendars? I thought, I thought this especially communications and fundraising. I would have thought that this was all happening.

[00:15:03.09] spk_4:
Think about even pre internet fundraising departments were doing plan giving major gifts and direct mail and they were doing their own thing and direct mail is kind of its own bespoke thing. It’s still kind of done the same way. It was about 25 30 years ago, right? When you enter, when all of a sudden digital happened, everyone, the the email list is really a file of all the supporters. Communications often feels like there’s an audience about just awareness and brand engagement and marketing and all I want to do is engage those supporters in that way. Development looks at that list and says these are prospects or they’re already donors that I need to feed and nurture. And so part of it was the shared technology often created the conflict around who’s list is who’s who gets to message to who about what message, right? So what is the content of the message that’s a fundraising message versus a educational message or what the organization is? Doing the part of that has been, I think that most of the conflicts are around ownership of the odd, they believe they have different audiences. But supporters of an organization don’t have a hat on and say, I’m a donor or another hat on and say, oh, I’m interested in this content. That’s not how it really works. But that shift is slowly happening and we’re seeing more collaboration around that because of the proliferation of channels that everyone is engaging on social email.

[00:15:52.01] spk_2:
What’s your advice around who should be in these conversations were doing the annual calendar? Is it I imagine it’s not only the two heads of the of each team, but how deep do we go to every, all the members of each, both teams? I mean, our listeners are small and midsize nonprofits. So we’re not talking about 25 person fundraising or communicate, but still there could be six or eight people on each or even combined. What’s your advice around? Who

[00:16:40.93] spk_4:
does this planning? Transparency is super important especially to employees now, you know, where we live in an age where feeling aligned with the mission and your work and coming to work and really having a good experience at work is very helpful. So our advice is usually be as inclusive as possible with everyone who can participate in a planning exercise. Bring them in because you know, we live in an age where people are quitting and quiet, quitting and if you live, if you are working in an environment where there’s tension with other teams, that’s a good sign. That’s a problem. I mean, it might be a retention issue there for organizations. So when you do strategic planning together or redesigning a process or anything that will enable a change to happen, it’s, it’s best to be as inclusive as possible.

[00:16:45.92] spk_2:
Or, or if everyone is not included in the actual meeting, then bringing it back to your team incrementally. It’s not like it’s all going to be decided in a 90 minute meeting, bring it back feedback, representing that feedback to the, to the working group or the

[00:17:01.53] spk_4:
collaboration.

[00:17:10.59] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Um Anything else we should be talking about work processes planning besides, well, you were starting to talk about soft, you didn’t, you didn’t, you didn’t really flesh out. We got digressed, digressed you into more discussion of the hard tools, lackluster, you’re suffering a lackluster host.

[00:18:53.56] spk_3:
There’s a lot, there’s a lot and this is I think where I was going with that was to say these are tools that work in other breakdowns, they work in any breakdown in the human system. But for example, saying we’re taking the whole team away twice a year for one day or two days. And that means development and communications. That might also be a marketing group that might also be a digital team or it might be sub working groups, but we’re going to do these two day intensive retreats where we really try and understand each other’s expertise and map solutions together and those could be processed solutions or that could be campaign planning. It could be anything, it could be exploring new audience opportunities um There and there’s all of the piece we’ve just heard so many clients say this year, you know, this wasn’t working well before the pandemic, but now we’re just broke down by the side of the road. Our ropes have frayed between these two teams and even within our own teams, we’ve on boarded new staff, they’ve never met each other. And so what is it that we’re going to do? So understanding, for example, when you need to pick up the phone, when email is not enough, our slack is not enough, texting is not enough. We need to actually pick up the phone and work together in a human way towards a solution. Um That, that those kinds of pieces as obvious as it sounds, they’re not pieces that people have necessarily incorporated into their ways of working, particularly younger staff. So understanding that there’s a whole range of those kind of tools that you can use um and sort of working norms that you can establish with those teams if you were a leader or even just a manager of a small team. I think one of the most interesting things we found in this survey is that this tends to be less of a problem at small organizations, particularly when you have like a one person development and communications team, you have to work together. You don’t have a choice. This is a problem that happens often with growth and scaling that relationships that once worked. It’s just harder to figure out how to do that. The more humans you have in the

[00:19:17.28] spk_2:
mix retreats. Plus there’s social time built in. What about? It cannot be a soft tulle, just social time that we’re not doing any planning. But we’re doing, I don’t know, you know, one of the mystery, one of the mystery places, solve the murder mystery places or, you know, whatever or just drinks a game room. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Just get to know each other outside our, our marketing and communicate.

[00:20:04.70] spk_3:
This can be very social. But the idea of like after we do something, we have to do some retrospection together, I think that often gets lost in these teams because people are moving so fast, you move from one campaign to the next campaign to the next ask. And now so many teams have the data to sit down together after doing something, even something that maybe didn’t go very well and saying, well, what worked here? Is there something we can learn together and kind of using the data is a way to have an independent objective view. You can all analyze together and say, what does this mean for the future? How do we do it? And you can do those in a fun social way. It doesn’t have to be a boring, sort of like. Now we’re going to do a postmortem and we’re all going to look at it. You can, you can sort of make this a part of the way that you work together.

[00:21:13.56] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Donor box. It’s the fundraising engine of choice for 50,000 organizations from 96 countries. They’ve got something new. Now, you can accept cashless donations anytime and anywhere with donor box live kiosk, turn your ipad or Android tablet into a kiosk to boost in person giving. And with their new additions to donor box events, you can sell tickets in 43 currencies and ask buyers to cover fees. Put these two together and you’re in person events will take off donor box helping you help others. Donor box dot org. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:21:16.08] spk_0:
Thank you, Kate. How, how are you?

[00:21:18.85] spk_1:
I’m doing well. How are

[00:22:58.51] spk_0:
you? Uh, I’m great. I’m great. I’m glad you’re with us. And, uh, and congratulations again on your promotion. That’s so, that’s Kate. She’s not an intern. She’s our associate producer, but I have someone I can blame. Now, I’ve been saying for years, where’s the intern? Yeah, I wish I had an intern every time I make a mistake who would say who writes this crappy copy? I wish I had an intern to blame. Well, I don’t have an intern but I have an associate producer now, I have an associate producer that I can blame. It’s beautiful. So, any flubs? Well, I’ll just leave them at flubs. I won’t go more, uh, I won’t be more extreme with another F word with any, with any, with any flubs. I’ve got an associate producer that is now going to be responsible. I’m thinking this, this is today’s news. I’m just thinking, I’m glad that Kate is not a member of Sag after yet. Otherwise I would have lost her. She’d be, be on the line so we wouldn’t have her but not a member yet. It’s relieving. It’s sort of, there’s a burden lifted from my shoulders that I no longer have to bear the responsibility of my own mistakes. That’s the beauty of it. I don’t have to be responsible for my own flubs any, any longer. Very relieving. That is Tony’s take two.

[00:23:20.68] spk_1:
Not what I was expecting and I’m not sure what I’ve gotten myself into here but whatever we’ve got just about a butt load more time now. Back to communications and development. Teens working better together. Hmm.

[00:23:23.89] spk_2:
Where else should we go with the topic? We still have some time together. You know, we haven’t

[00:25:24.42] spk_4:
talked about yet when you, if there’s something broken that needs, that needs healing, you know, you think about these conflicts in any, whether it’s between communications and development, between it and development, any kind of processes that are broken and cause frustration and friction within teams. It’s useful to have another event happening and that needs change and then you can overlay process improvement during another change. So a good example that we often find is that if someone is migrating from one software tool to another, it’s a great opportunity because people are going to use a different technology when they come to work every day. The common thing between development departments and communications departments is that they all use digital tools. They use CRM S, they use email marketing tools, they are always tied to technology. And so if the technology is changing, it’s a great opportunity to think about what role do we need doing? What activity in this tool? And then you can take that one step further and say, how should all these roles work together? What’s the workflow? What’s the process here? Who’s supposed to be doing what and what you find in a lot of organizations is there’s a often individuals that they’re just willing to learn everything. So they’ll take on any project and they can use the tools really easily and they end up doing more than their job description, then you have others who just really don’t, don’t have their role clear about what they’re supposed to be doing. So you have an opportunity in something as, as something like a CRM migration. You can also take a look at the staffing and the staffing structure and the processes and improve some of these frictions almost under the guise of as we go through this technology migration. Let’s take a look at how we’re actually doing our work and that’s useful because sometimes new technology has different features. So you need a skill set of a subject matter, expert in a purse skill. How did that person fit in? Which means how to other people’s jobs change. So if you look at the human component around technology

[00:25:40.50] spk_2:
and sometimes technology is not the sole solution, the people in the processes could very well be contributing to the to the problem that we’re looking for the tech to solve.

[00:26:22.77] spk_4:
Usually the text, I would say almost all the time when we hear about a technology problem, the technology is working as intended. It’s a people and process and workflow problem. Sometimes tools are older and they need to be renovated or an organization has developed a new strategy, an organization that mostly does touch engagement or gets corporate gift or grants wants to start a mass marketing program. They need technology that can better accommodate those different strategies. Those are all opportunities to stop and look at process. How are we looking, how are we working together? What organizational structure do we have? Is everybody is or do we have all the right roles in our team? And it’s a great opportunity, we find that a lot of the time we do a lot of change management and process design around the human component of the technology and it really has nothing to do with the tech itself.

[00:26:34.31] spk_2:
Is there another example, Alice that you can share around an event that merits this this kind of attention and planning and introspect. Really, it’s introspection, I think its organizational introspection, something else non tech

[00:27:33.47] spk_4:
oftentimes a new leader will come in so a new leader can come in and have a new idea or a new program. Like the example of now we’re going to start doing a new strategy. So any type of external force of change, if there’s a moment of critical change, that requires the opportunity to take a step back and look at how things are working. You’re absolutely right. It takes a very self actualized executive director to say here, I’m getting complaints from my development director and complaints from my communications director. I need to bring in an outside consultant and figure out a better process so people can work together. That doesn’t often happen. Usually there’s some other pressing external event like a new person comes in, who’s a leader, a new development director and director and executive director who says, wait a minute, this doesn’t seem right. Why are people complaining and not getting along? Let’s take a look at that or it’s a technology thing. It’s like our tools aren’t working together.

[00:27:58.51] spk_2:
Okay. That was a good example. Thank you. Alright, cool. I’ll put you on the spot. Thank you. All right now. You’re cause craft consulting, you’re not flustered. I, I put you on the spot and you rose to the moment. Of course. What is no surprise, surprise? Yeah, that’s right. All right. Um We still have some time if there’s other stuff you want to, we talked through your three learning objectives, stated, learning objectives for the, for the session. But what else, what else you’re gonna share with folks that we haven’t talked about? Maybe we

[00:28:11.46] spk_3:
could talk a little bit about our survey results. Um I think we learned some

[00:28:14.54] spk_2:
more motivation type. Okay.

[00:28:57.93] spk_3:
Well, one of the things we asked about values beyond motivation, beyond motivation. Uh the subject of structure because we were, we were curious about and we have observed a lot. It’s not a perfect structure that perfect organizational way of structuring this work of these teams that works well every time. But what we really noticed is there are big differences in the way that these breakdowns happen that are a result of structure. So when you have a development in the communications team and one department, it’s not that that’s a perfect structure. It’s just harder to have a lot of conflict where people don’t work together, right? But as an organization grows, you tend to have two separate functions, people specialize and they pull apart. That’s one moment where a lot of conflicts can happen. Um where digital lives in an organization that’s a big differentiator in terms of. So if digital lives in communications. Sometimes there’s a real breakdown between development and calms. Digital are the ambassadors that go back and forth and the emissaries between those teams and are the ones that are trying to connect the ropes. Even when those

[00:29:17.95] spk_2:
earlier you said something similar. Yeah,

[00:29:27.92] spk_4:
they have to be the mitigators, you know, they have to, they’re getting the pressure from both sides and they actually have to serve both departments. So oftentimes the attitude and approach the digital team can be one of either exacerbating conflict or bringing people together.

[00:29:32.93] spk_2:
What about the existence or not? Of the same leader over two different teams. So, but they’re not the same team, they’re two separate teams but same director or vice president. Does that, does that make a difference in terms of likelihood or not of conflict? That’s a good

[00:29:57.92] spk_3:
question. I would say it depends sometimes that leader themselves really has a career that aligns with one function or another. We’ve seen, I have an exam recently, the department that its development in communications, but the leader is really a long term career fundraiser and communications. A little left out. It’s like kind of a child that has the parent that’s really aligned with the other child. So if you have a strong leader who equally invested in both sides and really thinks from the perspective of both sides that actually can work very well as a structure, we’ve seen a lot of that

[00:30:28.41] spk_2:
interesting because they come from a background of one of the other. So they’re going to be much more fluent with one function.

[00:30:51.56] spk_3:
Exactly. As something else we saw that I thought was really fascinating. Is we asked how many of these organizations have a dedicated marketing or engagement team that’s not exactly calm and it’s not exactly development. It’s a marketing function and a huge portion. I think almost 70% said that they have marketing teams when we would have these conversations 10 years ago. Marketing, it’s still a very dirty word in organizations. If you said marketing people would say, well, I’m a nonprofit. We don’t do marketing that’s changed hugely railed

[00:31:14.88] spk_2:
against that, but I always bristled against that, but it has changed, it has changed marketing and promotion. Now we talk about promotion. Promotion used to be sales promotion, like selling lay’s potato chips at a point of sale, you know, in a supermarket that was sales promotion. Uh You know, we’ve, we’ve there are things we can learn from the for profit sector, right? Everything corporate is not dirty. Exactly and marketing and promotion, I think are

[00:31:41.11] spk_3:
examples and marketing. A lot of those teams see themselves as engagement functions as thinking across all the ways that an organization might engage and thinking about the full funnel, the kind of full end to end relationship even for non donors, like volunteers, activists. Um lots of other folks, service recipients even, how do they play into the way the organization needs to be engaging them. Well, the

[00:32:46.09] spk_4:
for profit world has kind of nailed this with the idea of customer experience management. Now you have big companies that have CX. So when you think about the donor experience or the supporter experience, thinking about it, from that perspective, it’s about the curation of an entire holistic experience. The for profit world has nailed that when you, it’s, it’s important to actually for all of the teams to consider their audience as one audience. And how do we, what do we want that experience of our audience to be? And that like I said before, you don’t put your hat on as a donor and a hat on to someone else. So thinking from all of the new knowledge we have from customer experience management, applying that to how we’re going to engage our supporters. We have seen organizations combine their development and communications teams like you said before into a public engagement, um External affairs, other names of teams that have a single leader, the benefit of that is also there’s a single source of making a decision or setting priorities, which is really helpful to have right now, the teams have competing priorities and there’s no arbitrator besides maybe the executive director or the executive committee to say yes, we’re going to focus on this and we’re not going to focus on that. We talked

[00:33:07.22] spk_2:
about message prioritization, okay. Right. Single single decision maker. Alright. Anything you want to leave us with, I let Alice open. So Mr, you want to leave us with something harmonious and uplifting, empowering

[00:33:17.27] spk_4:
the harmonious and uplifting, encouraging,

[00:33:19.09] spk_2:
encouraging, and empowering.

[00:33:57.97] spk_3:
Well, one of the things that gave me great relief in analyzing the survey results was to realize that I think most people know that these two teams actually have more in common than many of the other teams in the organ. There are some natural points of harmony built in. They both really care about results and outcomes. They are very focused on reaching audiences. They think from outside in and not just an inside out perspective. And by that, I mean, they think about these audiences and what do these audience needs. They’re curious about how to reach them, they want to message right and represent the organization, well, they want to get it right. And they see themselves as bro the work of the organization to the world at large, making it relevant and meaningful. So there’s a ton of common ground. I think that just gets obscured a lot of the time by these persistent thorny dynamics. And when you can help people to see the common ground, people are relieved and excited to work together almost universally. We’ve seen that over and over again. The will is there people just sort of need to be given permission and shown the way

[00:34:26.58] spk_2:
Mr mclaughlin Alice Hendricks, both principles and co founders of cars, craft consulting. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Thank you Alice and thank you for being with nonprofit radio coverage of 23 nt. See where we are not sponsored by lay’s potato chips. Even though I gave them a shout out, we are sponsored, in fact by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Thanks for being with us

[00:35:02.90] spk_1:
next week giving circles with the woman who popularized them. Sarah Llewellyn. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:35:06.21] spk_0:
I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:35:25.10] spk_1:
We’re sponsored by Donor Box with intuitive fundraising software from donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. This show, social media is by Susan Chavez, Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:35:51.75] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for June 26, 2023: Data Driven Storytelling

 

Julia CampbellData Driven Storytelling

Julia Campbell returns to share her thinking on retaining and engaging donors by creating and curating your best stories. She’s an author, trainer and speaker. This continues our coverage of the 2023 Nonprofit Technology Conference, hosted by NTEN.

Also this week, we welcome Nonprofit Radio’s first announcer, Kate Martignetti!

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:34.88] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti, non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Our announcer, Kate martignetti is gonna stick around last week. I invited her on for fun and I love the way she sounds. So I hired her, Kate. Welcome.

[00:00:36.29] spk_1:
Hello.

[00:00:41.36] spk_0:
Glad to have you. Congratulations on your May graduation from American Musical and Dramatic Academy. How did you, how did you find that program?

[00:01:14.59] spk_1:
I went to a high school at a technical school for theater and then I just kinda wanted to continue theater as like a professional career. And one of the places that I found during one of those um college fairs where you can let go and speak to other colleges in the area in other states found Amanda. Um and they were like, hey, come work with us, we’re professionals. Everyone has the same passion as you. You will be worked very hard, which is something I really wanted because theater and just being on stage is what I want to do for the rest of my life and

[00:01:28.69] spk_0:
where you worked very hard. How did you like, did they work too hard?

[00:01:32.49] spk_1:
Yes, they did. They worked me very hard. But I, you know, out in the Real World you’re gonna be auditioning every single day, maybe multiple auditions a day. So I am to throwing us new material every day was honestly really, it helped to prepare us for the Real World.

[00:02:02.01] spk_0:
I’m glad you had a great experience at an NDA. And I’m really glad that you are non profit radios announcer. So welcome again, I’d be hit with pseudo AG graphia if I had to write the words you missed this week’s show,

[00:02:48.75] spk_1:
data driven storytelling. Julia Campbell returns to share her thinking on retaining and engaging donors by creating and curating your best stories. She’s an author, trainer and speaker. This continues our coverage to the 2023 non profit technology conference hosted by N 10 on Tony’s Take to the gift butter video. We’re sponsored by Donor Box with an intuitive fundraising software from Donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others donor box dot org. Here is data driven storytelling.

[00:03:23.73] spk_0:
Welcome back to tony-martignetti, non profit radio coverage of 23 NTC, the 2023 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. You can tell that this is much quieter than all the other 23 NTC recordings you’ve heard. That’s because Julia Campbell and I were not able to connect on the floor at the conference, but we’re doing it in follow up.

[00:03:26.56] spk_2:
I got the time zones wrong. It’s my fault. All

[00:03:34.39] spk_0:
right, Julia, I wouldn’t say it, but yes, Julia messed up the time zones. She was ready two hours after she was supposed to come. I

[00:03:38.69] spk_2:
was like, where am I going? What am I doing? And your poor, lovely, you know, associate said, oh, no, that was a while ago. So thanks for bearing with me.

[00:04:00.14] spk_0:
Yes, of course. Yes, it’s, it’s Julia Campbell very well, very well worth waiting for. And Julia is an author trainer, speaker and even years ago was the social media manager for tony-martignetti non profit radio which helped launch her author speaker training

[00:04:12.55] spk_2:
career. I really, really, really did. That’s so interesting. It was so long ago because it doesn’t seem like that long ago.

[00:04:35.35] spk_0:
It was good. 878, 10 years maybe. I’m not sure quite 10, but it’s around there. Yeah, we had, we had fun together. Yeah, we did. Yeah, you always knew what you were doing. You just get me, get me, get me straight. Google. What? Google Mail. What am I like?

[00:04:38.03] spk_2:
Yes, you have some, you have some great ideas. But yeah, the technical application, but that’s the perfect example of being in the weeds. And I think you are a great example of knowing your strengths and hiring out and you still do that. It’s inspiring for, you know, entrepreneurs and freelancers like me,

[00:04:57.66] spk_0:
I’ve had a social media manager for many uh 15 years, probably 14, roughly 14, 15 years, I’ve had somebody helping me.

[00:05:08.51] spk_2:
So nonprofits take note. You don’t have to do it all yourself.

[00:05:59.26] spk_0:
Oh, please don’t. Yeah, you don’t, you, you know, based on your scale, you know, you might be able to but if you want to really scale, you know, you need help in a lot of different areas might be grants, it might be social media. Yeah. Don’t, don’t fear the outside folks who can help, you know, they specialize, alright, like Julie, like the Julia Campbell’s, but she’s moved on from being social media manager. Now. She’s author trainer, speaker, August personage generally. So your topic at NTC at NTC? Yes, was retain and engage your donors with data driven storytelling. I feel like we should start with what is data driven storytelling. So let’s start there.

[00:08:40.91] spk_2:
Yes. So I think that the term storytelling has taken on this interesting almost jargon e quality where people just sort of throw it around and they say, oh, we have to tell stories or collect stories or share stories. And I’m definitely guilty of a lot of that because a lot of my content and materials and training is around effective storytelling, but a lot of nonprofits don’t work in human services. So there are quite a few of us that maybe don’t have those stories that are incredibly apparent like the puppies and the kittens and the kids and the, you know, the Food Bank. Um So how can we use the data, but also create a narrative around it. So, with storytelling that is data driven, it’s really appealing to people that have that logical mindset. So the way that I taught it and just to go very briefly, the way that I tried to frame it in the session. Okay. Well, the way that I framed it in the session and I did have two other speakers with me that were absolutely fabulous. Um And I want to talk about how they covered it as well, but I talked about Aristotle’s rules of persuasion. So the only way you can persuade someone to take an action is to have three elements. One is logos, which is logic, the logical nature. The second is ethos, which is, which means you need to be credible, which is tony, why you read my bio and talk about my accolades before the podcast even get started because people are automatically saying, why should I listen to her? You know, why should I even pay attention to her? And then there’s pathos which is the emotional connection that you need to have in order to take an action. So data figures into the logos piece of it, which is convincing me that what you’re working on is something that’s urgent and relevant and timely, but also something that’s really a problem like is food and security a problem that sounds silly. When I say it out loud and I’m sure for everyone listening, it sounds silly. But if I ask someone on the street, they might say no, I don’t think so. I don’t know anyone that goes to a food bank. I don’t know anyone that’s food insecure because what we don’t understand, we’re so caught up in the curse of knowledge and what we know that we don’t understand. We still do need to convince people that the problems we’re working on our problems. You know, we can’t just keep sending out fundraising appeals that say everything is great and hunky dory and wonderful because people will read it and say, oh great and just throw it in the trash. We need to incorporate data and statistics into our storytelling to show people that this issue, this cause is relevant and timely and also is really worth our attention,

[00:08:55.08] spk_0:
but still make the story humane,

[00:10:31.06] spk_2:
but still make the story humane. So storytelling is the way that you’re going to create that empathy that is required. So if the only thing you do is share statistics, you know, and actually I should have pulled up my slides and gotten some statistics because I’m going to just make them up right now. If you say, you know, 100 billion, not 100 billion, 100 million people are refugees right now in Ukraine, right? That’s just a statistic people’s eyes kind of glazed over if you don’t start talking about the story. Like what is the story? Maybe? Tell a story of a family that was displaced, tell a story of a family that came to the United States and what they experienced. So if you read anything that’s good journalism and tony, you know, I studied journalism. Journalism. Journalism is really my passion. That’s why I started my podcast. That’s why I love to write. I love to get the story, but not just the story. I really want to drill down into. Why is this something we need to pay attention to right now? And why is this relevant? And how does this sort of relate to what’s going on in the rest of the world? Because what happens is when non profits do their storytelling, a lot of the time they focus just on their locality or they focus just on maybe even their region if we’re lucky, but we need to tie our stories into the bigger picture of, you know, racial inequality and racial injustice or maybe, you know, the bigger problem of substance use and abuse, the bigger problems of income inequality and how that affects people experiencing homelessness. I think we need to do a better job tying our little piece of the pie into the bigger picture to create that context for our audience. So we shouldn’t rely on data, but we should definitely be incorporating it more, I think with our stories.

[00:11:04.62] spk_0:
Alright. This is, it’s, it’s sounding very valuable but a little esoteric. So like how can we or what are there things that we need to think about or I mean, this is not, it’s not a 1234 steps, you know, when you’re done, but how do we approach this so that we can get to what we aspire to human stories that also incorporate data so that people see the bigger context

[00:11:33.00] spk_2:
thinking about. So we need to be really creating a system where we’re constantly looking out for not only really effective stories but also data that supports our point that this is a problem. So while I love Humans of New York, I love Humans of New York. Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s,

[00:11:49.71] spk_0:
I don’t know if there were more than two volumes, but I have two of those on my

[00:12:16.50] spk_2:
book. It is anyone that wants to be a storyteller, especially a storyteller on social media needs to follow Humans of New York on Facebook and Instagram get the books. They’re fantastic, they’re wonderful stories. They make me feel something but Humans of New York, they don’t ask you to do anything. I think they might now be fundraising and there might be a call to action at the end. But in the beginning, it was just sharing these stories to make you, you know, to help you feel like you’re part of the human experience

[00:12:22.88] spk_0:
is and compelling photographs of folks

[00:12:26.27] spk_2:
exactly compelling

[00:12:27.27] spk_0:
visuals and not by a professional photographer. I don’t think he was a professional

[00:12:31.36] spk_2:
photographer. No, I think he’s just using an iphone.

[00:12:34.07] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:14:54.64] spk_2:
Talk about just something that exploded because as you can see, you know, we’re craving that human connection. So we’re craving like seeing ourselves and other people or you know, we want to be empathetic, we want to be compassionate. But when you want someone to do something, you can’t just share a fantastic story and then say give at the end, it really needs to be what is the impact going to be when you give, for example, what’s going to happen with that donation? A lot of people say give so that 10 people can, you know, have access to the food bank or give so 40 kids can get the backpack, something like that. Yeah. So I consider that a piece of data. So data doesn’t have to be a statistic on the problem. It really just has to be something that is going to appeal to the logical side of my brain. So you’ve got me emotionally, you grabbed my attention, you piqued my curiosity, you pulled at my heartstrings, maybe or you inspired me, maybe you made me angry. That’s a valid emotion to elicit with storytelling. And what are you going to do with that energy? And that’s where a lot of organizations I think get lost. They focus on telling this great story, pulling the heartstrings, but then what happens after or they tell these great stories and they keep telling them, but I’m a donor and I now want to know what is the effect, what is the impact? Like? Tell me great stories. Fine. But if I’m an active donor to organ is a, I’m a monthly donor, I really now want to know how many people have been served this year. How much is this affected? What’s going on? Is it pushing the needle on this problem? Is there legislation being passed? Like what is the sort of what is the impact? And I think that’s lacking and a lot of donor communications because we focus so much on donor acquisition and we don’t focus on donor retention. And when I designed this training, it was really retaining and engaging donors. It was not about donor acquisition. There’s enough data on that. I talk enough about that. But how do we really get them invested by using the statistics and communicating the impact? I think we just continually tell them these great heartstring pulling stories. But at the end of the day, we really want to know a little bit about what was done with the funds that we provided.

[00:15:59.12] spk_1:
It’s time for a break donor box. It’s the fundraising engine of choice for 50,000 organizations from 96 countries. It’s powerful enough to double donations and simple enough to be used by everyone. Black girls code increased donations by 400% upward. Scholars increase donations by 270% Maya’s hope saw a 100% increase in donors. The donor box donation forum is four times faster. Checkout, no set up fees, no monthly fees, no contract and 50,000 or go all over the world. Donor box helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Now back to data driven storytelling.

[00:16:59.72] spk_0:
The whole point of this is retention and engagement. Alright. So data for, for context data for so for understanding the scope of the problem, you know, sort of human storytelling to pull us in and, and ground it because you’re right, we can’t, we can’t understand something on a scale of 100 million people. It’s not that many in Ukraine, but whatever it is, we can’t understand even a million, even even 10,000 people is hard to understand, let alone millions, right. So, all right. So you know grounding in in one or two concrete stories, um data for impact. So you know what, what, what are we doing? Yeah, the problem is enormous. What’s our part of it? How can you be allied with us, help us alleviate the hunger problem or the domestic violence problem or in our community? Okay. Okay.

[00:17:07.59] spk_2:
These are huge problems and it takes the story to contextualize it, but the data to put it in perspective,

[00:17:25.56] spk_0:
write the story. Yes, the story contextualized data for perspective and, and context. Exactly. Alright. Alright. Um Right. Without too much reliance on data but but the numbers are important to, you know, get a sense of the scope of the problem. Like you said, I’m just, I’m just reiterating the smart points you, you, you already made. Um

[00:19:26.76] spk_2:
And I think another thing that nonprofits trouble with and you probably see this too in your work with like planned giving. Don’t donors, I don’t want to say not all donors are created equal because I hate that saying, but I don’t know how else to say it. Like donors don’t all want the same information. You know, donors don’t necessarily all want the same information depending on where they are in the donor journey. And they might, you know, they definitely need to hear the stories, the success stories, the testimonials, they need to hear the good things that are being done, but they also really need to understand that these problems are not going away. Like you give a $10,000 gift, you’re amazing and wonderful and that’s incredible. And thank you. And here are ways that you can get even more involved or becoming a go to resource on the issue. That’s always what I like to think. People start out the conversation trying to be the go to resource, but they should be, you know, kind of wining and dining the donor. Once they get the money, then they become the go to trusted go to resource on this issue. And they almost become like an advisor telling people you really care about arts in our community. This is what’s going on. You know, this is what the data showing arts is a fantastic way to improve academic excellence or are, you know, we have shown that the kids in our program are getting into college at higher rates, whatever it might be, we throw all that data at people that don’t even know us and don’t even care necessarily care about us. And we don’t end up giving this information to the donor who has raised their hand and put their credit card down and said I care about this issue. Um I think we just focus so much on donor acquisition and throwing so much information at brand new prospects, but not enough using this data to cultivate and retain existing donors

[00:19:56.58] spk_0:
and motivate. Um you know, you want folks to feel good about whether it’s $10,000 or $1000.50 dollars, you want them to feel good about what they’ve done. So they’re encouraged to, to do the same or more and not leave and not be among the, was it 75% of first year donors leave us?

[00:20:05.48] spk_2:
I think the fundraising effectiveness project data that just came out something like 80% of first time donors leave and then overall donor retention is around 46%.

[00:20:32.87] spk_0:
Yeah, not even half right, not even keeping half half our donors. Yeah. Alright. Alright. So smart to focus on retention engagement. Um What else? What else what else did you talk about? Because you had the other, you have the uh co presenters. So I don’t want to specifically ask you things that were in the like the learning objectives. And then you say, well, that was somebody else’s support

[00:23:41.34] spk_2:
so well, we really worked collaboratively together. So, um my two co presenters, one was Patrick Byrne, who’s the CEO of the Challenge Foundation, which is an organization based in Denver. And then Candice Cody, who’s been a longtime friend of mine, but she does marketing and data analysis for community boost, which is a consulting firm. So I asked Patrick to join us because he has that for, you know, um in the trenches perspective, he had just actually changed jobs, but he’s been working in um education and after school and youth development for decades in Denver is actually pretty well known. So, and he’s the CEO, he goes out and does a lot of these donor meetings, which we’re all very familiar with. So he’s one of those CEO that loves to go meet with donors, loves to talk, loves to present, loves to be like on the forefront of the issue. And he says that he Jen, he generally like will with a major donor lead with the data almost. It’s not like they’re parading around, you know, he doesn’t usually have one of the youth um come with him to these meetings, first of all, because of confidentiality and ethic, ethical reasons. Certainly they have events where the donors get to see the program in action. But he says often what he finds with the big big donors in the foundation certainly is that they want to see that data. So they understand that the problem is, you know, it’s really large and they know the success stories because the Challenge Foundation has done a great job in terms of marketing and pr and they’re always in the news, but they want to see kind of the hard facts. Like are we really pushing the needle on this? Like, are we really getting good results? Are we getting the bang for our buck if you will? Um What are the outcomes? You know, what are, what’s the actual impact based on our goals and objectives of what we’re trying to achieve? So he was talking a lot about his experience, talking to donors, his experience collecting those human interest stories as personal stories, how they do it at his organization. They have a whole system, they train their employees in storytelling, all of them so that they can notice a good story or a mission moment or a little quote or a testimonial when it comes up so that they always have like a database of stories to pull from. So when I tell clients that they, that really freaked out because they don’t want they, they think that it’s going to be everybody out in the wild West posting all over Instagram without any guidelines, but that’s not what it is. It’s really just people collecting the stories and sending it back to one person who’s kind of the gatekeeper and figures out the permissions and things like

[00:23:43.42] spk_0:
that. That’s valuable. You’re curating stories throughout the organization. Yes.

[00:24:40.43] spk_2:
And really, that’s the only way that storytelling is gonna work if you have it infused into the culture, if you just have your development director and I’ve been that development director that is the only person responsible for stories. What’s going to happen as I used to do every Friday, I would send out an email and say, hey, everybody, I’m gonna send out the newsletter this week or I’m sending out donor. Thank you. I really need a great story. And then of course it’s crickets. So if it’s not infused into the culture and if it doesn’t come from the top down, the importance of collecting these kinds of things, it’s just not going to happen. I mean, people are so busy, think about all of the things like anyone listening, think about all the things on your plate right now. But if it’s part of your job description, you know, part of your expectation. And if it’s just something that’s part of the culture of the organization, it makes it a lot easier. Yeah. And it

[00:24:41.46] spk_0:
makes it easier for the for the person who does have to curate the content because there’s this library of, of valuable stories that you can go back and ask more detail about. But, you know, like, well, you know, this, we have this great success or this, this woman gave said something about our work and here’s, you know, here’s what she said.

[00:25:09.61] spk_2:
Exactly. And you, you can’t always be on the front lines. In fact, you’re probably not always on the front lines, the marketing person, the fundraising person, and you’re not gonna

[00:25:10.53] spk_0:
remember it, You know, six weeks later when the, when the newsletter person emails you, you know, because it happened six weeks ago, you’re not gonna remember that story, but in real time. All right, that’s valuable in real time. If people just have somebody to email, look, there’s great, great quote from this woman. You know, I can tell you more if, if you decide

[00:27:41.51] spk_2:
exactly, I can tell you more or I had lunch with this donor and I think she’d be really perfect for our gala. Just make a mental note. You know what I mean? And it’s things you can follow up on later. And what I always say is that these stories are evergreen. People think that email and social media, everything has to be something that you came up with that second. It really doesn’t like if it’s a story from five years ago, it’s still powerful and no one knows it was from five years ago and it’s still like it still has that impact. I just think we overthink the content creation and the storytelling, the story gathering process because we think it has to be something that happened this week. It really does not. Like sometimes people work on stories for months, you know, they work on them for weeks. Like thinking about making a video, you can work on that for a really long time. It doesn’t have to be this like, oh, this person told me this story today and I have to post it today. That’s the way I think we think about things, think about websites that have stories on them that are really God only knows how long the stories have been on there. But that doesn’t diminish their impact. It doesn’t diminish the person’s transformation or the life that was changed or the impact that was made. It just, it just um you know, if you have that, that powerful like evergreen story that never goes stale, you can build on it and why not revisit stories? That’s another whole topic. Charity Water does that they constantly are revisiting people that they told stories about and sharing new information about these people. And I just wonder why we have to constantly be on this hamster wheel of storytelling and we don’t dive a little bit deeper or maybe, you know, revisit someone that was in our program that we talked to, maybe talk to them five years later or even just a few months later. So the constant content creation, hamster wheel and the view of storytelling is it has to be this perfectly crafted Lord of the Rings trilogy kind of thing where there’s, you know, the hero’s journey drives me crazy journey.

[00:27:47.80] spk_0:
Yeah, the

[00:28:21.34] spk_2:
hero’s journey. It’s the, it’s the one we all know. It’s like the Luke Skywalker, the Harry Potter Frodo. I mean, it’s the, the Hunger Games, you know, Katniss, it’s the reluctant hero and then the guide and then we all know that story. But when we are talking about storytelling, especially on digital channels, it really can just be a great picture and a quote like Humans of New York does it or it can be a mission moment or it can be a piece of data and then illustrating that data with a quote with a testimonial. So I think we tend to think everything has to be perfect and very produced. But on the other hand, that’s stopping us from doing the work, I think it’s a little bit of an excuse. Honestly,

[00:28:36.25] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:29:13.33] spk_0:
You can watch the video of last week’s webinar that I did with Give Butter. It’s debunk the top five myths of Planned Giving. I was with Floyd Jones from Give Butter. And when I say with, I mean, we were sitting next to each other, it was terrific. What I’ve never done a webinar like that and I hope I can do more where we’re sitting side by side. So we joined each other’s screens and we just, we had a good time at, at the, we were in Brooklyn. So if you want to watch the video of debunked, the top five myths of Planned Giving the video is on the Butter blog at give butter dot com.

[00:29:23.98] spk_1:
That is Tony’s take to, we’ve got just about a butt load. More time for data driven storytelling with Julia Campbell.

[00:29:53.07] spk_0:
That’s all very valuable. Go back, you know, like if you’re listening, I would go back 10 minutes and replay what, what Julia just said because there’s 44 valuable points in there that will help your storytelling, help your content curation really valuable. Um And what did you just say that something is hurting us? What was the last thing like last sentence you said?

[00:30:00.97] spk_2:
I think it’s a little bit of an X. It’s

[00:30:03.11] spk_0:
an excuse. Yes, it’s an excuse. So not happening because we don’t have anything that’s 24 hours recent.

[00:31:12.51] spk_2:
So or we don’t, we don’t have the budget to make produced video. I could tell you every excuse in the book, every storytelling excuse I have been told and there are ways around it and this is not my quote and I just wrote it down for a talk that I’m doing and I can’t, I want to give credit to somebody for it, but it doesn’t take resources to be resourceful and you have to consider, you know, your budget, your band with your capacity and also, of course, there’s ethical considerations around storytelling, but none of this is insurmountable. I’ve worked with organizations. I work with an organization that focuses on their think tank and they focus on chronic absenteeism in the United States. They never tell stories about students because they don’t want to focus on a student who’s chronically absent. I think that would be highly unethical to do that. And also it’s, you know, there’s such a stigma around it that it’s hard to find personal stories for them, but they still managed to talk to teachers or principals or even other um like legislators about their work. I mean, there’s ways to do it without getting that. You know, Julia was hungry and she came to the shelter and we helped her.

[00:31:27.96] spk_0:
But can’t they tell a story of a student just anonymized?

[00:31:37.21] spk_2:
They could they tell they interview a lot of teachers who tell stories, the third party stories, okay. But because they don’t provide direct services so they provide training and assistance and legislative advocacy. I mean, their think tank,

[00:31:54.70] spk_0:
right? But let’s, let’s take, let’s take a hypothetical then playing off that. I mean, if you, if you do do direct service work, the stories can be anonymized, right? Not to use the neighborhood that they live in, you can pick another neighborhood. You don’t have to use their age, you can pick something different than their age. You don’t have to use their name, you can pick a fake name. No, the, but the story can still be told that that sounds like a, that sounds like one of your excuses. We don’t want to, I don’t want to compromise. We have ethical and maybe even legal

[00:33:49.15] spk_2:
requirements. Okay. So anonymized of confidentiality clients I’ve worked with one is called Plumber Youth Promise their foster care agency and Salem Mass, they only work with underage kids because once they turn 18, they age out of the foster care system. So they sent an email out the other day that I saved because I wanted to use it as an example um with my clients and it said that 40% now this is like such a horrifying statistic. 40% of kids that age out of foster care, like our homeless instantly just homeless because they don’t, they’re not staying in their foster care family. Maybe they can stay in their foster care families house. Um They certainly can’t stay in the facility because of laws, state law. Oh my God, it’s so horrible. So that is such an example of that statistic grabbed me and then they told a story of girl that they assisted um while she was transitioning out and they talked about their whole transitioning program and what they do when kids turn 17 and how they work with them for a year to figure out this transition. So they don’t turn homeless. It was really amazing and like it was just super I opening for me because I guess we all, I don’t know, I just never thought of it that way, but it was using data in this way to kind of open my eyes. But then sharing a story of how okay this this piece of data is horrible, but here’s what we’re doing, you know, in our little corner of the world to combat it. And it was, it was all anonymized. Like you said, there was a picture of like a tree in the email and it was, the story was, you know, obviously names changed and everything. So there’s definitely a way, there’s ways to do it.

[00:34:28.71] spk_0:
All right. Thank you. Encouragement, encouragement. They always, this is, this goes to something I’ve, I’ve said on the show a few times and I say in my trainings too often, you know, I like to think about how we can instead of why we can’t, if you’re looking for the, why we can’t. You come up with 1000 reasons were under resourced. We’re, we’re understaffed. It’s a holiday

[00:34:29.83] spk_2:
week. It’s a recession. It’s this, it’s that it’s a political campaign

[00:34:34.80] spk_0:
has time, right? It’s the summer. It’s the fall, it’s the winter. It’s the spring, nothing can get done in those four seasons. No, we need a new season. You know, exactly why you can’t. But the, how you can focus on the, how you can see why you can’t, how could we get it done. Let’s assume we’re gonna do it. How can we do it? How can we do it?

[00:35:36.64] spk_2:
I love that. I think it’s all about framing and a lot of it is mindset like you and I both teach tools and tactics. But if you have a person, what you just said is so interesting is if you have a person that comes to you for training and help, but they are just thinking about, they want you to just legitimize why they can’t do something. I immediately say, I just don’t think this is gonna work until we can get into that. What can we do space? Because especially with storytelling, people do, they have a lot of challenges that are very valid and then they have some challenges that maybe they could work on that. They put up these walls that they think. Well, we can’t share this, we can’t collect this data, we can collect this story. So coming at it from that we can, I think I’m guilty of doing that in my own life. I think you’ve just inspired me to change my own thinking. Sometimes I’ve got to come at it as a I can like, what can I do? I can’t do that. Okay. What can I do?

[00:36:11.90] spk_0:
Exactly. Exactly. Alright. Any more encouragement on data, the intersection of data and humanity, let’s say

[00:37:43.52] spk_2:
data and humanity. Well, I believe that we do so much data collection and we have absolutely no idea of what we’re doing with it? So with any kind of data collection that you do, whether it’s internal or external or social media or its program related, always have a focal point. How is this going to be used? How are we going to improve what we’re doing? How you know, what could this inspire? What could this elicit, what minds could be changed? What behaviors could be changed? Always have that sort of bigger picture view of the data you’re collecting. Because if you know, we can all collect data all day, every day, but if we’re not using it in an effective way, if we’re not contextualizing it for people or if it’s just a piece of data that we’re not doing anything with, it’s really not going to be worth anything. And I also really encourage people have empathy for your audience. So this is something that J Kenzo says he’s one of my favorite authors and podcasters, J A Kenzo and he says have empathy for your audience, make everything very explicit, very clear, very short, don’t wrap a ton of stuff in 90,000 statistics and flow charts and things like that. Unless it’s a funder, you know, you’ve gotta know your audience. But if you’re thinking of an email or social media post, just have empathy for people, they’re scrolling, they’re busy, they have 90 1000 other emails, their boss is yelling at them, their kids are probably homesick, you know, whatever it is. Just make sure that you are providing the most relevant information, something that’s going to help them inspire them, something that’s going to encourage them to take the action that they want to take,

[00:38:02.73] spk_0:
have empathy for folks. Channel, channel your folks. I try to channel our listeners when I’m talking to smart folks like you. All right.

[00:38:11.95] spk_2:
Yes, I love that. Be your audience. Think about your audience first,

[00:38:16.04] spk_0:
Julia Campbell August personage

[00:38:20.42] spk_2:
personage. Uh going to put that in my email signature.

[00:38:33.66] spk_0:
Uh But more more uh perfunctorily, she’s author, trainer and speaker and was a speaker at 23 NTC. Thanks to

[00:38:37.57] spk_2:
excellent

[00:38:39.63] spk_0:
my pleasure and thank you for being with the ever continuing coverage of 23 NTC. Even four weeks later, still still capturing the smart speakers. And we were sponsored at 23 NTC by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Thanks for being with us

[00:39:42.29] spk_1:
next week, 10 fundraising boosts on a budget and personalized fundraising at a scale. If you missed any part of this week’s show, we beseech you find it at tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by Donor box with intuitive fundraising software from donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I am your announcer Kate martignetti. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez, Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:39:48.78] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.