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Nonprofit Radio for May 29, 2020: Fundraising 401

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Laurence Pagnoni: Fundraising 401
That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising. That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising.

 

 

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[00:01:53.32] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go into Borba Rig mus if you upset my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show. Fundraising for 01 That’s Lawrence Paige non EA’s latest book. It’s a series of master classes for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in non profit management and fundraising. Tony Stick, You planning for reopening were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a real pleasure to welcome back Lawrence Pack tony Teoh non profit radio. He is chairman of Lap A fundraising serving non profits throughout the world, roughly 25 clients at a time. He’s got 35 years in the sector as executive director and fundraising council, his latest book published this year is fundraising for, 01 master classes in non profit fundraising That would make Peter Drucker proud. The company is at lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Welcome lap. If the firm was lapper your lab, right,

[00:02:00.79] spk_0:
we tripped upon the acronym years and years ago. We always use the full Lawrence Ape Agnone Associates. And

[00:02:07.26] spk_1:
as I remember,

[00:02:08.24] spk_0:
one day, we just had written lap on this and that had good alliteration. We should use that.

[00:02:18.28] spk_1:
Okay, you went the way of ah, of, um, Triple A and ah, and AARP. You know, they don’t You’re not, You know, Lawrence, tape Agnone Associates anymore. Your lap. That’s right. Okay, it’s the It’s the 21st century now. Alright.

[00:02:38.44] spk_0:
But there’s also a mini lesson there for non profits about, uh, branding. Um, trying to get it right at the beginning is important, but good. The difference between good branding and great branding is the width of the Grand Canyon. Um and so I didn’t ever want to venture into rebranding it without great council, which I’ve never been able to afford.

[00:03:29.74] spk_1:
So you stumbled on lap and we evolved, you know, you? Yes, it’s proof that the greatness doesn’t come out in the beginning. You can’t plan all the greatness in the beginning. It has to as to organically come about. So it’s been like 6.5 years. You were on the, uh, your for your first book, the non profit fundraising solution. You are on non profit radio on November 8th, 2013. Wow, when that book was new, seven years ago on dhe. Now, your second, um so let’s let’s get into it. Uh, why does, uh, what is management consultant Peter Drucker belong in the title?

[00:05:16.64] spk_0:
Ah, Homage to Peter Drucker taught me how to think. Ah, well, I guess the Jesuits would take the first bow for that. But Peter Drucker, Um, I was a Peter Drucker fellow in the 19 nineties here in New York City. And it was Peter who taught me how to integrate fundraising into organizational development. Besides just being a great part human being, he was a brilliant strategist and thinker. He of course, wrote the original bulk on reengineering General Motors, and but he spent the last years of his life focused on the what he called the higher profit sector what we call the nonprofit sector. But he, uh he thought that if there wasn’t a coalescing off the non profit sectors values with the business sector, that society would be deficient for for that not happening. So, um, actually, when I started writing this book, um, I didn’t realize the degree to which drug Harry and thinking had Dominy eat it. My own thinking. And it was about a dozen chapters in that my editor said you use Drucker an awful lot. I said, tell me how many times? And then I was, like, astounded. And, um and then I I added that little no. Oh, my him

[00:05:23.14] spk_1:
And And Drucker had the book managing the non profit organization. Yeah. He was committed to the to the sector. To what he got what he called the higher profit. Is that what he called it? The higher profit

[00:05:31.64] spk_0:
profit Peter Drucker?

[00:05:33.28] spk_1:
There it is. And all right,

[00:05:48.29] spk_0:
I’m Crawford organization. It’s been on my desk since 19 91. I think, um, and I read and re read it as I hope you will do my book fund raising for a one coming forward.

[00:05:49.64] spk_1:
Yes. Ive replayed your show on the first book three times since 2013. So I have you, tony. It’s a go to for still is for people who asked me, How do I get the next level? I get that question every maybe a couple times a month. Maybe not that often sometimes, but I recommend the book for how to get to the next level. It’s a It’s a very systematic and sensible approach.

[00:06:27.36] spk_0:
The, uh, the fundraising, The nonprofit fundraising solution was the pros of fundraising. But fundraising for a one is really the poetry. It’s more the art of fundraising, whereas the other one was the science.

[00:06:31.39] spk_1:
Yeah, you say that and you talk about the art and science and one of your chapters. But you talk about growing into answers and moving to a better set of problems with both of which sound artistic talk about that growing into answers and better set of problems.

[00:08:00.24] spk_0:
Well, oftentimes, nonprofits What? There, there. Uh, there’s not enough room in scopes of service, you know, you hire a fundraiser to fundraise and you define a scope of service but a really advanced fundraising system. Once it gets going, it has to look carefully at what the owners are saying. What the institutional funders are saying, Ah, what is working in social media and what’s not for one of our large clients connected with Johns Hopkins University? They weren’t able to raise any money online. And he, um, change the way they approached social Media. And within the first year, they had an extra $100,000 from their social media program. Um, so figuring out as you go long, um, more efficient ways and building that creativity in is very important. And, um, um, and defining it too rigidly. Uh uh, shuts that down.

[00:09:16.36] spk_1:
I did like a better set of problems. No, you tell an anecdote. You, for some reason aboard, was getting involved in whether to buy a fax machine. Let’s not get into whether board should even be deciding whether by fax you. But, you know, you just went out and bought the damn thing yourself. Now the fax machines, not communicating with our donors back when facts that this was many years ago, not communicating with donors and our funders is not a problem, but so that that was for me, that was okay. Better set of problems Let’s not deal with the damn fax machine. I’ll buy it. And now let’s deal with communications. It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. We received RP PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven from your Pee Pee Pee loan? You need to apply for that. It’s not automatic forgiveness. Get the details from the C P, a firm we trust. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to fundraising for 01

[00:10:33.97] spk_0:
But here’s a Here’s a more sophisticated, better set of problems. Let’s say right now you don’t know who you’re monthly donors are or your plan donors are, and you do research to figure out. Maybe a lot of nonprofits don’t know the date of birth of their donors. So let’s say you do research and you integrate just the date of birth into your donor database and you’re able to segment. Um, you know, suddenly you discover, as is the case with one of our clients on, I remember your rule about the difference between active and a passive plan giving program that they discovered they had 750 people over age 65. They were. They were not aware of that until they had their date of birth. And so now they have a better set of problems. They’re able to think about planned giving because they know they have a donor segment. That is ah, that matches that. So that is my definition of organizational growth, too. But a lot of of of us that we have the same problem over and over again, and that is being stuck. And I wrote this book to tease out ways to get unstuck, Um, and to try some new things within your thinking. First and foremost, this is a book about how to think about fundraising,

[00:10:45.37] spk_1:
a series of revelations, Syria’s revolution. So So we’ll talk about a bunch of them. You you talk about, uh, fundraising as, ah analogized Teoh. Dating, dating relationships. No, se little about that.

[00:13:19.24] spk_0:
Sure. So when two people meet, they have to learn what the other person’s up for. They have to learn their values, their mutual sexual attraction, their ability to work on and solve problems together. Now, absent the mutual sexual attraction, the same applies to getting to know your donors putting your donors first, uh, listening funders. Pushing back a little bit with your funders about what you’re really needs are having conversations that are thoughtful. And, um so, uh, getting to know the the revenue streams that you’re working through is just similar to dating, but without the sexual romantic energy listening, listening is critical and mentioned listening. And if you’re not sympathetic, simpatico if you’re not simpatico, um, like, uh, one donor who Who? I was trying to get a six figure gift from four teenage pregnancy prevention program. I’ve been telling this story for years. So pardoned, if you’ve heard it. But it was such a rich experience for me, you know, right early in the conversation, he said, You know, um, I don’t believe teen age should be having sex, and I just let the silence sit there. Of course, inside myself, I’m thinking, you know, e, I just lost the gift, but I just listened Ah, in a posture of tell me more. And then he said, I think honest peak, tony must two minutes must have passed. I really was starting to sweat a little bit, and then he said, but I that not chewy. And, uh, and the clients you serve need the kind of program that your agency is recommending. So let’s talk about how that would work. And so he was up for it, But he was starting from a place of his own, you know, position, but showing flexibility about thinking. So he was up for the dating relationship?

[00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Well, well, what may be the one night stand, but that you have that you have that story in the book. And he gay ended up giving $25,000 right? Because you were a good listener. So maybe that was a one time gift. So now,

[00:13:39.73] spk_0:
no, no, he gave for three years.

[00:13:53.54] spk_1:
I did. All right, All right. So it was a short term relationship. All right. All right. Um, our product, our product is impact. What’s that about?

[00:15:07.06] spk_0:
Well, too many people confuse that they’re giving to your non profit. You know, the bread for the world or partners and Hells or whatever the name of the non profit is, donors don’t give to your non profit. They give for the mission and the impact. And you have to be clear about, you know, with your gift will be ableto have more of an impact. Here’s the impact we’ve had. Here’s the aspirational impact that we’re looking for. Um, Bill, Sure, from share Our strength has been a real role model in the nonprofit sector. Ah, for talking about the rial overhead costs that we should be advocating before to really get the job done, He asked the provocative question, Um, if would you be satisfied if my overhead were 5%? But I didn’t feed All the hungry people came to me. Nurses. If it was 35% and I did feed them all, which would you prefer? And, ah, that that is a good question. And you could each agency could have their version of that, um, to talk about aspirational goals and, um, and and if because if you don’t define them, no one in no one else’s

[00:15:33.44] spk_1:
and you talk about the importance of measuring impact. Yeah, knowing what your return on investment is your r a y ah nde communicating, sharing that it’s it’s critical.

[00:17:02.98] spk_0:
Yes. So having not just an evaluation program that complies with the funders requirements as so many government contracts do, but having a new evaluation program that helps the staff make management decisions about what programs are working and what are not. When I was the non profit CEO of Harlem United for six years, our data showed us that are substance abuse case management program did okay, but what really kept people in sobriety was our pastoral counseling and pastoral care program. Because the clients it was it was nondenominational. It was a healing experience. And it had twice the amount of ah, of sobriety retention as our substance abuse counseling program did. If we hadn’t been looking at the data, we wouldn’t have known that. And so we took that news to religious oriented funders and hired three more pastoral counsellors and built a partnership with Hospital Chaplaincy Inc. Who trains pastoral counsellors. And, um, we have had, uh, we had a strong spike in sobriety amongst our clients. It was really quite beautiful. And it’s lasted for years,

[00:17:36.69] spk_1:
all from understanding what your data is revealing what your true impact is. Yeah. All right. You you mentioned staff were jumping around a little bit, but you you highlight that Ah used to think that clients should come first. But now you feel its staff should come first. Retention strategies, professional development. I don’t know if you mentioned mentoring, but that always comes up, you know, talk about investments and investments that are that need to be made in staff. And why you think staff is number one now,

[00:20:24.54] spk_0:
boy, if I come a long way as a as an advocate for the poor from being a teenager, Um, when I worked in a volunteer in a soup kitchen myself, thanks to my good old Teamster union dad, um, I never wavered from clients first, and, uh, but, um, it’s not that I’m saying clients take a back seat. I’m saying that if we make staff, primary clients will be better served ma staff retention that nonprofits is alarming. And worse yet, Ah, younger generations, um, leave the sector faster than our generation. Those of us in our fifties, they leave the sector faster. Um, because they have a bad experience with a board or the the poor. Compensation is not livable for their family. So but it’s not just about the conditions of employment. It’s also about is the non profit a learning environment A learning organization here at lap of fundraising we have just 1/2 a dozen shared values within our firm and professional development and advancement is, um is one of them, and we pay every year, every staff person has a professional development plan, right, and we pay for it. And, um, we’re happy to do it. Um, because people are staff will tell you. You know, we aspire whether we succeed at it completely, I don’t have to ask them, but we aspire to be a learning organization, not just learning on our accounts, but learning from best practices in the field and colleagues we bring colleagues in, um, we’re big into what’s called the any a gram in our workplace. It’s a it’s ah, it’s an emotional intelligence system for the workplace that that helps people understand how there are clients are viewing the world how they’re built. The India graham dot Any a gram institute dot or ge. I believe, um, would introduce you to it has some videos there,

[00:21:00.94] spk_1:
so we need to overcome Leave behind this idea that professional development technology to support staff. You know that these air luxuries, you know, we’re way cut. Being a couple of operating systems behind is okay, because it’s more important that we spend our money on the people or the programs. You know, that’s that’s that’s outdated, thinking you and what we’re seeing in terms of younger folks leaving the sector is bearing out that bearing out out. That’s evidence that we’re not providing what they’re looking for. So they try one or two jobs and then they leave. That’s that’s not talk about not sustainable.

[00:21:26.64] spk_0:
I could just hear some of your audience members saying asked Lawrence to tell me where to find money for technology improvements or, UM, or professional development.

[00:21:28.69] spk_1:
All right, well, good. You’re channeling the audience like Ideo. Ask the other. Answer them.

[00:23:19.64] spk_0:
It’s hard. Um, I know what what we do is we build it into our overhead rate and where we can we try to get so many nonprofits have such a low overhead rate, and that’s again back with Bill Shore was talking about, um, some government contracts actually curb you at 10% and most nonprofits haven’t overhead rate at least a 23 24% and arguably it should be probably close to the 35. I think all the major universities are somewhere north of 50% overhead. So trying to get it into your overhead and then, of course, looking form or general operating support by identifying donor advised funds, which, by definition, as you know tony, are hidden. There are profiles you could use to assume that somebody probably has a donor advised fund. We do that nor prospect research. And then, of course, we asked directly when we’re talking to them or serving them. So people who have donor advised funds are very friendly to, you know, odd costs or what? You know what the As contrast that to institutional funders where you get a grant for your program. Sometimes in those grants you can add a computer. You can say we need, you know, 40 hours of professional development. So integrating it into all your fund raising on into your overhead rate has worked with many of our clients. Um And then, of course, there’s rare occasions when on our f p is issued where you can ask for things like that.

[00:23:31.02] spk_1:
Uh huh. You doesn’t work with sterile needle exchange. Just talk about that a little bit. That sounds like a good story.

[00:24:36.14] spk_0:
Yeah, Harm reduction. Um, again, a better set of problems. Um, it’s better toe. Have needle. Ah, needle users use clean needles, then toe Have them keep using dirty needles because it reduces the spread off HIV and STDs. Ah, and blood born infections. Um, so that’s a better harm. Reduction is a better set of problems with science behind it. And, um, this is true not just in the United States, but in, uh, all throughout the world and European countries who have harm reduction policies. Harm reduction is still needed. It it’s kind of fallen out of fashion. There’s just a handful, maybe two or three funders who are interested in it. The drug policy alliance is still interested in it. And the Komer Foundation, if if they’re still around,

[00:24:40.50] spk_1:
what was What was your work in harm reduction?

[00:25:29.42] spk_0:
Uh, well, I had, uh, helped, um, the New York harm reduction Educators in the Bronx form a hotline so that people could reach them, and, uh, we went to check cashing stores. Um, where the poor, The poor in the Bronx generally don’t use a bank. They pay to have their check cashed, which is a scandal unto itself, but its exorbitant if we would expand the United States Postal Service is toe what it was in the 19 fifties. They they wouldn’t have have that. There’s a direct link between the reduction of the role of the U. S Postal Service in its role with money orders and check cashing and the the upswing of these four profit sleazy check cashing.

[00:25:38.50] spk_1:
Interesting. All right, we’re

[00:26:04.35] spk_0:
but any way went to the check cashing places. And yes, we paid them. We had to pay them when they cashed the cheque to put our business card for the the New York Harm Reduction Educators with 1 800 number on And we saw, on average, 800 new enrollees into the non profit to get access to HIV prevention and treatment service is

[00:27:17.24] spk_1:
I did. I did work in Philadelphia when I was in law school with an organization called Prevention Point, Philadelphia. It was it was a grassroots, sterile needle exchange. Excuse me. They were going toe parks in areas where they knew drug activity was high on weekends and literally distributing marked sterile needles marked so that they knew when they got their own back so they could had some. They had a measure of effectiveness. How many sterile needles were coming back and how maney unmarked needles So dirty needles they were getting off the streets, and that was incredibly rewarding. It was an internship, but just to see the the father’s walk up or drive up with a young child in tow and, you know, taking 1/2 a dozen needles and giving us 1/2 a dozen. Uh, but I know the statistics are there that it reduces on. This was 1989 1990. Uh, no. HIV was much more dangerous than it is now.

[00:28:41.54] spk_0:
And he’s here. You see in art in the conversation right now between tony and I, how a fund raiser discovers his or her product to sell. This is what fundraisers do at the highest level. We listen to the caseworkers to the clients, to the statistics to the the best practice studies, for example, with a affordable housing program that I’m starting to work within Orlando, Florida The executive director was blown away because the first thing we were starting to do is we’ve read 10 years worth of completely boring but totally relevant thinking from the Orlando Housing Authority about their needs assessments. They do them, they’re required to do them every 10 years. And those documents are chock full with with really good data. Um, I mean, that’s something to be a proud of in our country is we still have some semblance of these local civic governments that are doing their due diligence about community need. Um, but this is how fundraisers then get a very powerful case for support develop. Um, and uh huh. That’s why there’s a chapter about impact and the the the product is your program, and it’s a

[00:30:33.04] spk_1:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two reopening from Corona virus. That’s the special episode with Lisa Brauner. I just want to make sure that you heard it. It’s very good, very relevant, and I don’t want you to miss it if, uh, if you’re just sampling the show. Perhaps those were listening to every show, of course. All three of you, Cheryl, Rick and my dad. I’m just kidding about that. My dad doesn’t even know what a podcast is. So for Cheryl and Rick, I know that you are covered, but everybody else, Lisa is very smart. It’s a valuable show. We talk about dozens of issues for you to consider. As you plan to reopen your office reopening from Corona virus, you’ll find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Oh, and please, please keep taking care of yourself. Do it each day. You need it. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Stick to now back to Lawrence Paige. Tony Panyu. Tony. He’s chairman of lap of fundraising. We’re talking about his book fundraising for 01 You talk about the donor as hero? What, uh, what are you thinking there?

[00:30:36.04] spk_0:
Well, uh,

[00:30:37.68] spk_1:
all right. Share your thinking. I know what you’re thinking cause I read your I read your book. So listen, you just got to get the book. If you want to flush out the full thunk thinking Sure. The launch will introduce you to his thinking as donors as heroes,

[00:32:16.34] spk_0:
so many appeal letters or annual reports or newsletter. They make the client the hero. There’s there’s wisdom to that. They make the organization itself the hero. But in fund raising, the donor is the hero. And I grew up in a non profit sector that ignored that the ascent ignored the donor. The essential message to the donor for most of my life has been give and shut up. Um, but today’s donor wants to be heard. They want to be acknowledged. They will give MME. Or they will become more involved. It was Terry Axelrod, the founder of the Bena von model of fundraising that started to give me a hint that donors wanted to be engaged, and then the data bore that out. Um, I’ve started to take on clients who would tell me, Oh, we could never ask. Are our volunteers for money? I haven’t heard that question in the past five years or so. Ah, better set of problems, I think. I think people are more convinced that they realize their donors want to give and hello out there. If you think your dough. If you still think your donors, your volunteers going to No. Well, please evaluate that. Read my book and evaluate that because your volunteers want to give

[00:33:07.07] spk_1:
you, uh, one little quote, you say as your writing. You know, as you’re writing to your donors, um, tell the story as if the donor were sitting before you over a cup of coffee. Uh, you suggest you see their smile, speak their name? Um, you make it up, make it a conversation. You know, this idea of stilted language? Uh, you have to fill in 8.5 by 11 page sheet of paper. Maybe. Sometimes you do. But if you don’t need to, then don’t. Um, handwriting, handwriting and written solicitations could be probably more sincere than something you produce on word and feel constrained, compelled to Philip age around. So no, get close and talk to people like like you would like to be talked to.

[00:33:25.56] spk_0:
I learned from Tom Ahern about some of the nuances about making the donor the hero, and it actually influenced my book cover. You could see you know,

[00:33:26.88] spk_1:
Darcis holding listening marches, holding up his book cover. Okay,

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
going below, there’s a hook with a dollar sign going below the surface of the water Because the point is to rid to raise the big money you have, Teoh, think more deeply about fundraising and what’s motivating the donor. Um, but we start making the case right on the cover of a newsletter or a case for support. We recently did a case for support for an animal welfare agency where we put a picture of the Cubist cat on one case and the cute his dog on the other with their owners who had just adopted them holding them. But right underneath that we put the question, How can we ever say no? So we’re we’re saying to the donor,

[00:34:20.74] spk_1:
it wasn’t How can you How can you say no if you

[00:34:23.95] spk_0:
ever say no?

[00:34:24.74] spk_1:
Yeah, right. How can you say you ever seen get the you? You gotta get you with yours in there.

[00:34:28.90] spk_0:
That you in there?

[00:34:43.14] spk_1:
Okay, so I read the book you missed. You blew the Holt. Whole Point is, you gotta have the u in there. Not how can we get You are sorry. Um um

[00:34:44.44] spk_0:
you your it’s all about you.

[00:35:24.47] spk_1:
Yes, using yours. I know. Tom Ahern stresses that he even has a calculator on the Web somewhere. It might be a hearn dot com or something where you can put your text in and it’ll evaluate how many years you have versus how many wees or something like that, right? But I’m constantly I’m constantly rewriting, you know, the can we change the to you, the donor, Your you, your donors? I mean, as I am writing to clients instead of the donors, your donors, you’re talking now to the second person instead of the abstract third person, the donor that could be anybody’s donors. No, we’re talking about your donors, your donor. That’s just not not in the abstract. I think it bring. It makes it more concrete than using the site. That second person.

[00:35:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and it also it’s It’s not just a linguistic shift. There’s research science behind it. Psychology, science, psychological sciences behind it that the donors feel like Oh, he really is talking about me and and so we raise more money with that approach.

[00:35:54.39] spk_1:
By the way, did I did I mispronounce your name when I introduced you?

[00:35:59.14] spk_0:
I know. You

[00:36:00.34] spk_1:
know I didn’t I had hoped that I had met mispronounced your name because I had hoped that by now 6.5 years later you had changed the pronunciation of Panyu. Tony, why are you still defacing your beautiful Italian names with

[00:36:14.79] spk_0:
parents? It’s worse than that. The whole name on the bastard bastard birth certificate is Lorenzo Antonio Paige non. Tony?

[00:36:22.66] spk_1:
Yes, Panyu tony, why are you started

[00:36:25.28] spk_0:
the opera? You know

[00:36:26.63] spk_1:
I know you. You are in 2013. You mentioned your

[00:36:33.25] spk_0:
grandmother. Grandmothers? Uh uh. She loved the operating that she tell me that old time your name’s a little opera.

[00:37:18.63] spk_1:
I would rather you take the g out to make it pan, tony, or it switches to panini or something. Please. But you’re you’re killing the beautiful pronunciation. Panya non. I’ll try, tony. I promise to try. All right, it’s worth It’s worth the investment. It’s worth the investment in changing the pronunciation, not dispelling just a pronunciation. People will still be able to find you on the web. All right, um, you said you say all donors are major donors and following from that all gifts of major gifts. What? What? What is that to me? We know we’re stratify ing. We have our modest donors because we’re too afraid to call them small donors that we say their modest And then we have our mid level and major and then, you know, may be ultra. But you say all old owners are major donors.

[00:39:54.42] spk_0:
Yes, because nobody has to give a dime to you. Nobody has to give their hard earned money to you. Nobody has to on because of that, they all should be treated in a major way. Now, of course, in the systems of fundraising, we might have automation in place. Hope thoughtful automation for donors who are, you know, from $1 to say, $5000 for major donors or transformational donors at the higher levels. You know, we have a more personal touch. It’s expensive. Major gift officers who know what they’re doing are have come at a higher salary because their skills are honed over years and they know how to deeply listen and use the data to ask for transformational gifts, multiyear gifts, legacy gifts. Um, but, um but but I’m trying to convey that we shouldn’t take any dollar, no matter the size amount for granted that that they don’t have to give and people are giving, you know Jesus pointed out in Scripture. The widow’s mite was greater than the Faris ease giving because she gave from her heart and she gave from her want. And, um so I had to learn again. Just like with professional development. I had a learned this the hard way. My development I belly eight about donor giving less than I thought he he could have My development director quietly closed the door, sat down with that white flustered look on his face like Lawrence. Jesus, Mother God, you know, what am I gonna do with you? You’re supposed to be our leader. And he said to me lardons every gift is a major one and he didn’t have to give that gift. And that’s a real story. And I went silent and I thought about it. And I thought, You know, that’s That’s damn true. Yeah, eventually, that donor, because of the way my development director treated him so kingly. He did give at much higher levels later on. But nobody has to give us a dime.

[00:40:19.62] spk_1:
Generous would be proud of you. Still still quoting, still quoting scripture that influence that’s with you forever, I’m sure. Yeah. Uh, something else you. You, ah, seems provocative. That you devote a chapter to is, uh, revenue diversification. You you tell us it’s overrated. Flush that out. Would you?

[00:41:37.61] spk_0:
For smaller organizations, divert revenue diversification is really essential. I’m not naive about that, but it’s expensive to do well. Um, most smaller organizations barely have. Well, the profile most organizations is that they don’t even have a development office state. They have the program director and the executive director rights to grants or, um, manages the gala. They might bring in a gala event consultant, but, um, when when Stanford University did a study of think it was 130 major nonprofits who had gotten over $50 million annual revenues, they discovered that diversification of revenue went down. And that study was a seminal piece of research that changed our thinking about diversification. So as a non profit grows to a better set of problems, um, its revenue should stream should become deeper, not wider, and a

[00:41:38.56] spk_1:
few 1,000,000,000. What’s deeper in what’s most successful,

[00:43:00.34] spk_0:
that’s right and most lucrative. For example, Habitat for Humanity. They started with, um in kind donations as there biggest source of revenue that the stuff that they needed for the houses that they were building good stuff, not just, you know, poor quality stuff. But then they realized that the people who donated that stuff were willing to donate. And so they started an individual donor program that eventually grew as they did. Don’t a research to major major gift program, and they went deeper and deeper into that source of revenue individual giving they before monthly giving. They formed eventually on line giving. They formed legacy societies. So within each revenue stream, you can create enormous depth. And, ah, instead of expanding outside, could habitat taken government money is probably some of them eventually did in localities that where the local government said, Hey, we wanna help because this is part of our community development, a program. And so they got some

[00:43:46.04] spk_1:
time for our last break turned to communications. They’re former journalists, so you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. Plus, you want toe prepare, you got a plan to build media relationships. When all this noise subsides, there is a future after this. They know exactly what to do for you. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for fundraising for 01 This is also an example of where you need to invest in staff. You know, if you want. If you want to go deeper in the in the channel, the fundraising method that’s that’s most lucrative for you. You’re gonna have to do it with a professional who’s got an experience, got experience in that in that channel and maybe others as well. But it can’t continually be the executive director trying to deep in fundraising in the most look from the most lucrative source and manage the organization. Oversee the programs in short compliance. I mean, this is where you have to invest. If you want to be among those few charities that gets to the whatever 50 or $55 million level. You know it’s doable, but you need to invest in growth.

[00:44:58.44] spk_0:
When I last talked to you in 2013 our firm talked a good game about Prospect Research Service is, and we did. We did deliver some service is, but we got honest with ourselves that we had to invest. Seven years later, we have you know, a six person T and we do Don’t a research. Now we find I mean, we found 108,000 new donors. Value aligned donors for Lutheran Social Service is we found 8000 new donors for the food bank in New Jersey. Um, we found ah, 42 new board member candidates for ST Christopher’s Inn and Garrison, New York.

[00:45:15.86] spk_1:
I mean, our donor from in investing in Prospect Research.

[00:45:24.09] spk_0:
Yeah, and and also the field itself has matured and developed. And it’s not just about the data. It’s about using how to use the data off when you marry the data of vendors with a trained fundraiser. That’s where you have the alchemy

[00:45:37.49] spk_1:
and you have a whole. You have a chapter devoted to not underfunding advancement, development. It’s called development for a reason. You make the point. It needs to grow, and if you’re gonna grow it, you got to invest in it. So don’t under fund your development. Ah,

[00:46:02.77] spk_0:
and by the way, I just gave you the tip for my the book. The next book, How to Find New Donors, which will be out sometime in 2021.

[00:46:04.50] spk_1:
You’re doing a prospect research book.

[00:46:29.78] spk_0:
Yeah. Uh, interesting. You call it that? I’m not sure. It’s funny. Um, I I’m professionally, I’m a fundraiser. I’m not a prospect researcher. Yeah, I use the tools. I know it in good prospect researchers. Obviously, we have them here at the firm E. And I know I’m not one of them, but I’m a fund raiser who uses the data So that put the books about. It’s a nuance, maybe a distinction without a difference. But But there are very wonky. Very good prospect research books out there that I couldn’t possibly Right.

[00:46:54.18] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. But, um, I still have some other things I want to cover with you. We got, like, another 10 minutes or so left, but, uh, let me throw to you. What do you want to talk about from the book?

[00:47:08.48] spk_0:
Well, right off, I’d like Teoh, uh, invite the reader to to actually read it. I talked to a lot of fund raisers, and I’m not

[00:47:16.38] spk_1:
convinced. Sounds like that. I think that’s sound advice for a book. Ah, Book author? Yeah. Assumed my book, for God’s sake.

[00:47:26.48] spk_0:
Well, I actually learned this from a terrific fundraiser. Who headed up the Heyman Institute, Um, at New York University. Ah, Naomi Levine.

[00:47:32.24] spk_1:
Had I had her on the show years ago? Yes, I

[00:48:20.87] spk_0:
remember. Naomi, you know, kicked my butt around. Lawrence, you know, you have to read not just in our field, extensively. But you have to read in the field of economics in the field of sociology in the field of of, ah, science because the donors are expert in those fields. I remember going into a meeting with an engineer on a plan gift. And, um, he mentioned something that I had read because of Naomi suggestion about the field of of environmental engineering. And I said to him, You know, I know enough to be dangerous, but are you talking about, you know, corrosive engineering protection and his I split up? How the hell did you know that?

[00:48:24.77] spk_1:
You learned those words and friends. Corrosive engineering protection. And

[00:49:05.17] spk_0:
there’s affinity on this is our job. Is fundraising whites or amazing field? You? Never, if you’re bored, is a fundraiser. Holy cow. Your read my book and find out. You know, a way to become a non board. But my point, tony, is that so many fundraisers. Our stayed there. Kind of. They know what they know. Um, I could tell you at this time in my life more about what I don’t know about fund raising that then what I know about it and why I surround myself with good thinkers myself. And I’ve been told that this book and this is my second point is both helpful for somebody advanced in fundraising like yourself. And it’s also helpful for people who are new or mid career that it’s a very approachable book. Primarily because I tell stories that are based in reality. And I then give the more advanced theory behind it.

[00:49:32.27] spk_1:
Yeah, So I grab it. Is it is it You

[00:49:34.44] spk_0:
found that to be the case?

[00:49:46.87] spk_1:
It is approachable. Yeah. Um, it’s my turn again now. So you you have advice for ah CEO? Um, decision making and also CEO as fundraiser. So I want to put those two together and and explore what? What? Decisions about fundraising are appropriate at the CEO level.

[00:51:16.76] spk_0:
So, uh, knowing the plan and understanding the plan of how to move to a better set of problems, do you have the same fund raising dilemma year in and year out. That’s the CEO’s job to kick the boards, but and the the development teams. But ah ah, because so many fundraising programmes have the same problem year in and year out. That means it’s stuck and, um, and that’s primarily on the shoulders of the CEO. Uh, the underfunding of the development team that’s on the shoulders of the CEO. The CEO has to find the revenue to fund the capacity to pay for developed. Um, and I offer many on my blawg at lap of fundraising dot com. I offer you know, thousands of suggestions about how toe pay for fundraising, and, um so there’s two examples Ah, third example I’d give of the CEOs job and fundraising. Is it? They have to, um, boxed the ears or guide the boards in

[00:51:18.74] spk_1:
the stage box. Just 60 years, Yeah, box that years of war guide, okay

[00:51:24.20] spk_0:
or guide? That’s they would guide

[00:51:26.18] spk_1:
whose chooser is somewhere in that spectrum.

[00:51:59.21] spk_0:
Somewhere that spectrum. They have to guide the board’s way to think about fund raising because boards who know nothing about fundraising are sitting there in judgment of professional fund raisers who have you know, 25 years of experience. There’s, They wouldn’t do that to the program director. Some of them do. But that’s another set of problems. They wouldn’t. They generally don’t do it to their attorneys. They wouldn’t. They certainly don’t do it to their auditors. They feel free to do it to their fundraisers,

[00:52:07.34] spk_1:
things they would never do in their own business. They do, uh, routinely some boards, you know, to the CEO and the program staff of the board. Who’s the non profit, whose boards they said on. And you talk about a heavy lifting board gotta have a heavy lifting board.

[00:53:18.95] spk_0:
Yes, governance is a thing. Governance is not for every volunteer. Its governance is not just for, um, the person who likes your mission or whose son or daughter benefited from from your mission. Governance is a business proposition that the nonprofit sector has designed, Um, and it has roles and responsibilities for not just fugitive fiduciary roles, but for long range planning. It’s the job of the executive team to think about the next three years, but it’s the job of the board to think about the next 5 to 10 years. Yeah, and most boards never really think about the long term plan now, you know, planning in this day and age is is it is it anachronistic? I don’t think it is but a little bit old fashioned, but I think plans should be nimble and changed. But you should still have, Ah, a long range plan about what you want to look like in 5 to 10 years.

[00:54:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, that heavy lifting board and in terms of fundraising as well. And you make the point that campaigns could be a very good I very good vehicle for, ah recycling board or replacing board members that aren’t that aren’t heavy lifting. Maybe there’s an advisory council they can go on or some kind of America’s status so that they’re not embarrassed but still age. But But they’re not. But they’re not a fiduciary any longer. With those obligations and eso right, we have just like a minute or so left. Uh, leave us. Leave us with something, but do it concisely, please.

[00:55:46.67] spk_0:
Oh, we’re in the middle of as you and I record this were in the middle of the cove in 19 Pandemic. The nonprofits that are raising more money through this pandemic are the ones with a deep culture of philanthropy and that culture philanthropy is defined by resiliency. Resilience. Um, if you’re serious about the next pandemic or about your own viability in the future, the 23 chapters of this book well, deep in your culture of philanthropy so that you’re more prepared for the future. If you’re assessing yourself right now as that you were not ready for this pandemic, do not beat yourself up. But take it as a wake up call to start getting ready for the economic crisis that we’re going to be living through for the next couple of years, and for the very much needed reform of our health care system, so that the poor and uh, communities of color are better served than what we’re seeing in Cove in 19. And so that’s a real reason to read this right now. Tony, You and I have lived through many crisis is, and Cove in 19 certainly has its own characteristics that are unique. But, um, there are always crisis is that we face, and we have to be more resilient with a deeper culture of philanthropy, and fundraising for a one will help you get there.

[00:55:59.84] spk_1:
That’s the book fundraising for a one master classes in non profit fundraising that would make Peter Drucker proud. He’s Lawrence Ape Agnone lap.

[00:56:02.63] spk_0:
The

[00:56:02.74] spk_1:
company is labra lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Lawrence. Thank you very, very much. My pleasure.

[00:56:10.00] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you

[00:57:29.30] spk_1:
for sharing. Okay. Next week, more 20 and TC panel interview Greatness. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo creative producer is Clear My wrath. Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our guy. This music is by Scott’s time with me next week for not profit radio, big non profit ideas. 14 of their 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for April 10, 2020: Turbocharge Your Grants Fundraising

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My Guest:

John Hicks: Turbocharge Your Grants Fundraising
John Hicks returns with 9 steps that will burn the tires off your grants program. He’s principal and founder of DLBHICKS, LLC consulting. (Originally aired February 23, 2018)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.74] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:58.80] spk_4:
radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Lissa if you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show Turbo Charge your grants fundraising. John Hicks returns with nine steps that will burn the tires off your grants program. He’s principal and founder of De LB Hicks, L. L C Consulting. This originally aired on February 23rd of 2018 feet Land last week was grantmakers relationships. See how you see how it all ties together. This show is so heavily produced on tony Steak, too. I’m channeling You were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com Not heavily produced. Not just that, but expertly produced but Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here is John Hicks.

[00:01:27.42] spk_3:
What a pleasure

[00:01:27.86] spk_0:
to welcome back John Hicks. We

[00:01:29.85] spk_3:
believe this is his third time on the show c f r EE principle

[00:01:42.64] spk_0:
and founder of De LB Hicks, a consulting firm providing fundraising and grant seeking guidance to nonprofits from grassroots to global. His

[00:01:42.84] spk_3:
career spans over 30 years.

[00:01:44.81] spk_0:
He’s on the faculty of Columbia University’s Masters degree in non profit management, teaching grant writing, and he’s a lecturer for Rector’s University’s Institute for Ethical Leadership. He’s at de lb Hicks and de lb hicks dot

[00:01:59.05] spk_3:
com. John Hicks Welcome back to the studio.

[00:02:01.62] spk_5:
It’s great to be here.

[00:02:06.51] spk_3:
My pleasure to have you d l B D L b All we keep. Here’s deal be I love the story behind Deal Be Tell it

[00:02:15.34] spk_5:
Sure thing L B stands for Dylan’s lightbulb, as in Bob Dylan. Um, years ago, I came across a copy of D. A. Pennebaker’s great documentary Don’t Look Back, Bob Dylan’s 1965 tour of the U. K. Early in the film, Dylan’s getting off the plane at Heathrow Airport in these walking of this press conference, carrying a large light bulb, and he’s getting asked all the innocuous questions, you know, Are you folk? What is your message? And someone asked me, what is your message is my message. Keep good head. Always carry a light bulb.

[00:02:45.65] spk_3:
And I thought that

[00:02:47.27] spk_5:
was probably about the best piece of advice I’ve ever heard in my life. And I adopted is a personal mantra. And so when I launched my own firm, I said,

[00:02:57.98] spk_3:
You know, I’m gonna

[00:03:03.74] spk_5:
work. Deal, be into this. Get the light bulb in there. And that’s t l B. If you go to the website, you can learn a little more about that incident.

[00:03:05.82] spk_0:
And the home page has ah lightbulb image.

[00:03:09.19] spk_5:
It has a light bulb. Do

[00:03:10.77] spk_0:
we know why Dylan was carrying, like, both Do we know

[00:03:13.05] spk_5:
this day? And no one knows, I think is the typical Bob Dylan thing where somebody handed him a white bombings like this is cool.

[00:03:20.55] spk_0:
Or maybe it’s not, but I’ll make it cool. Okay.

[00:03:22.74] spk_5:
They’re identical radio.

[00:03:24.83] spk_3:
All right. Um, glad to have you back.

[00:03:27.36] spk_4:
I love it. You can come to studio all the time. Wonderful.

[00:03:29.48] spk_5:
Yeah. It’s great to be here.

[00:03:32.04] spk_3:
Um all right. So you got you got these nine

[00:03:42.74] spk_0:
tips for Ah, um, Turbo charging. You know, kicking up your grants program to the next level. Um, and you’ve got some advice that coincides with the panel that was on last week when I moderated at the Foundation center. Right? That’s cool.

[00:03:57.02] spk_3:
Um, so let’s I mean, let’s Ah, let’s let’s let’s overview first. What are what? What do you

[00:03:59.39] spk_0:
feel like? Non profits just generally are not getting quite right. Man, you got nine tips here about things that not profit should be doing better. But

[00:04:08.34] spk_3:
just eyes the thinking, not right around grants.

[00:04:10.60] spk_0:
I mean, what what generally, what could we be doing? Smarter. Thinking better differently about Grant What grants wise?

[00:04:18.64] spk_3:
Well, I was

[00:04:19.22] spk_5:
looking at grants is being the kind of philanthropy that brings to things to the table for a charity they bring. A grant will bring you cash and those rings you cachet. Okay, so it’s, um

[00:04:30.19] spk_0:
thank you. Somebody else’s supporting you that they believe in your work. Exactly. If you non profit radio sponsors. Yeah,

[00:05:35.37] spk_5:
you got it. And the thing about getting grant funding is that you go through a more of a due diligence process, which means that if I’m able to go to AA donor even if it’s an individual donor and say I have a grant from this foundation, of that foundation, and particularly if it’s a pretty well known foundation. Um, it says to that person, Have you been through due diligence process? And so I think First of all, it’s getting non profits to think about what part does a grant or grants for a grants program play in their philanthropy? And, um, also, I think it’s the heart of the nine steps to turbo charging your grants outreach. It’s It’s all about rethinking your agency. It’s like rethinking your story. And how do you use that to engage foundations at a much higher level? And I think I’ve always said that any charity could do this. I mean, it is This is not just large charities. I think grassroots charities.

[00:05:38.16] spk_0:
We wouldn’t be on non profit radio. This is all really for the $1,000,000,000 endowment and above.

[00:05:45.52] spk_5:
You got it? Okay.

[00:05:46.10] spk_3:
No, no. For sure they can. And that’s that’s why that panel

[00:05:48.51] spk_0:
was so valuable. Last That was last week. Yeah, I think there was

[00:06:15.68] spk_5:
a lot of discussion about this. I mean, if you if your listeners go back and listen to that, um, that podcast again, I mean, you’re gonna hear these grantmakers talk about the importance not only of engagement, but it’s coming in with a story in a vision for where your organization’s going next. And if you can get them to buy into that direction, you can not only get a grant that you could maybe could get a sizable grant or an impactful grant.

[00:06:20.91] spk_0:
And that term grand. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, changing the conversation. Okay. And you’ve got ideas on that coming up. You know, thinking long term versus immediate and what’s recurring costs, etcetera. And what’s growth costs we’ll get. Okay,

[00:06:34.29] spk_3:
so that’s a so the 1st 1 you have, um, focusing on

[00:06:37.64] spk_0:
the right, the right kind of money Thio ask for

[00:07:03.23] spk_5:
right. I think it’s understanding where your organization is in not trying thio under reach or overreach. So I think the important thing is I see a lot of charities come in and say, You know, I’m under feeling under a lot of pressure from my board or the staff that I have to go for the gold swing for the fences and get gates may not be the right fit for you. It’s choosing the part of the donor pool. You want to swim in a CZ I’m find of telling clients, Um, and the other part of raising the right money is making sure that you’re not getting money that sets up expectations that you can’t fulfill. This is another thing I run into is a consultant is walking in the door and seeing a lot of grants literally lying around where the agency is struggling to fulfill the promises made. But they just weren’t able to bring the rest of the money. And so it’s making sure that you’re driving the bus. That money is coming in to support your priorities and what you do Well,

[00:07:34.04] spk_0:
yeah. Um, So what? What causes this? This gap is it is not adequate planning on the part of the part of

[00:07:42.38] spk_3:
York. It can

[00:08:16.02] spk_5:
be inadequate planning. But, you know, I’m also fundraiser, and I acknowledge that a lot of us were there a lot of pressure to produce. And so it could be that, you know, we have boards. We have bosses. Who are you asking us to go for this grant? That grant. And, you know, you’re just you’re in response mode. The nine steps, I think get us back into doing this proactively so later in our conversation will talk about things like a strategic agenda and envisioning. And that kind of helps us, you know, move the ball forward, but close

[00:08:18.04] spk_0:
this gap between expectations and and reality. It’s

[00:08:22.04] spk_5:
usually you said it better than I did, tony,

[00:08:24.16] spk_3:
Uh, most guests say that. So don’t be surprised what this point out

[00:08:30.06] spk_0:
is that you’re surprised that I Okay,

[00:08:30.40] spk_3:
hold that thought.

[00:08:54.44] spk_4:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner. You each tomb and affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits and nine nineties under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now more of turbo charge your grants. Fundraising.

[00:08:58.44] spk_3:
Let’s go back

[00:09:10.90] spk_0:
to John and turbocharging your grants. Fundraising. Um, yes. So we’ve got ideas coming up that are gonna close this gap. Basically, um, let’s see

[00:09:14.48] spk_3:
what you want. Talk about next.

[00:09:15.84] spk_0:
What do you uh you You You you go.

[00:09:18.09] spk_3:
What? We

[00:09:19.80] spk_5:
were talking about visioning, and maybe we should talk a little bit about gold setting because I think that’s it

[00:09:24.46] spk_0:
certainly related to what we’re just talking about. If you don’t, you don’t have the goals right Then the expectations are gonna have that gap between what you asked for and what they’re expecting,

[00:09:31.52] spk_5:
right? So, um, a

[00:09:33.39] spk_3:
lot of

[00:09:59.98] spk_5:
cases gold setting stops at raise more money and you did last year. Our costs are going up. Here’s where the costs are going up, and that’s pretty much the end of the conversation. And what I’ve come to find out over time is that the organizations that seem to do a better job of getting money on the grant seeking side are the ones who think about their goals into categories. There’s, um, sustaining goals, which is essentially what are carrying costs just for the operations and carrying constant program. So we still need to bring money in to make sure we keep the doors open. We’ll keep doing the essential work that we do best. But then there’s another set of goals which relate to investment. So I call these investment goals and I only think of it is you put money in, you’re going to get a return on it, and we’re going to do something a bit more than you know we’re doing right now. So when the operation site he could be staffing, it could be strategic planning could be capacity building and never on the program. Inside, it’s all about creating new programs and growing new programs for growing the programs that you

[00:10:40.45] spk_0:
have. So this carrying costs versus new investment, right? Um,

[00:10:46.08] spk_3:
it’s It’s not This is not, Is not

[00:11:17.71] spk_0:
the same is short term versus long term Now I think it’s because carrying costs could be long term correct, Right? It is it those air like you’re basically your overhead eyes that fair or now nobody’s that’s program its program to write its programming. It’s just feel free to say you’re wrong. I’m not gonna shut your Michael. Uhm, we re very rarely Occasionally we do, but I won’t let you. So uh, okay, so it’s not that right. It’s, um it’s you You’re forced to think long term. If you want to make this type of, you know, new investment kind of asks,

[00:11:54.83] spk_5:
right? Exactly. I mean, I know another way of putting this Is that sometimes, you know, I, um yeah, I’m so privileged to meet incredible people who were working miracles with small amounts of money. They come in with a fairly small, modest program. But when you look at what they’re doing, they’re making some pretty deep meaningful change in people’s lives. And sometimes I’m so blown away by what they’re doing with limited resource is I’m I look at them and say, You know, if you’re doing this on a shoestring, imagine if we had the shoe. Yeah, she was all about the investment grand. Where do we go next? And how do we take this? And either deep in it are are make it bigger,

[00:12:06.00] spk_0:
look atyou extending the shoestring metaphor. Hey, So smart. Okay, So insightful. Okay, no friends if we had to shoot. All right. All right. Um, but now this. You know, there might be a fear of putting the putting the potential funder off, because now we’re asking for more money. And if we’re looking for this new investment kind of money,

[00:12:25.01] spk_3:
we’re not gonna

[00:12:25.59] spk_5:
put a thunder off by asking for more money. If the money has a purpose. I mean, think about it this way. I remember

[00:12:31.64] spk_0:
this sounds important years. They’re not gonna put a funder off by asking for more.

[00:12:34.74] spk_3:
I don’t think something. Yeah, I Years

[00:13:07.02] spk_5:
ago, I heard Abigail Disney talking to a group of non profits at an event here in New York City. And something she said was that she says, Yeah, I have a lot of money and I’m a philanthropist. But without you, my money means nothing, because I don’t go where you go. I don’t do what you do. I don’t see what you see. When I find you. You become my ears and you become my eyes and you become my hands. And

[00:13:07.42] spk_3:
any

[00:13:07.75] spk_5:
organization can be part of that

[00:13:18.48] spk_0:
picture. That’s why, don’t you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So ask for what you need, not what you think will be approved. As for

[00:13:20.21] spk_5:
what you need, what

[00:13:20.89] spk_0:
do you think you’ll get

[00:13:48.71] spk_5:
and and and ask for funding that’s going to get you to the right opportunity. So I always feel that philanthropy is about the possibilities, what we’re able to do next about opportunity. I remember once I had was working with an organization here in the city and the CEO was taking a grantmakers through the building and showing him the program and talking about program growth. And halfway through the visit, the thunder looked at the CEO and said, Look, I know you’re going to be coming to me with a grant proposal. Just make sure you ask me for enough money to do what you need to do. So you don’t have to come back and ask me again.

[00:14:04.84] spk_0:
Yeah. All right. They want to be asked for yesterday. Right? Uh, tony with foundations.

[00:14:11.47] spk_5:
Remember, we’re dealing with the donor constituency that’s in the business of giving money away. Yeah. So let’s help them do their jobs,

[00:14:28.46] spk_0:
and they want to do it right? They don’t want it. Ah, half cocked. And then, like you said, you know, a request to come back, uh, having to come back in 18 months because you didn’t ask for enough. Right? That looks bad because you look at your not about you. Not a good

[00:14:38.32] spk_3:
planner then. And you did the best you

[00:14:39.44] spk_5:
can. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances, but you have put some thought into it. And I think you know most of our listeners. I’m sure do this, so yeah,

[00:14:46.98] spk_0:
well, we’re making sure that they will. Now,

[00:14:49.47] spk_5:
there we go.

[00:15:01.84] spk_0:
I’m glad you said our listeners before you says my listeners and, uh And then you kept talking, so I let it go. But this time you said our listeners are Our listeners are our listeners, right? Pronouns non profit radio. Uh, we should make that a takeaway on to make that my takeaways. Okay. Um, all right, so we have carrying costs versus new investment money. Now we have sustaining grants versus investment grants. What it’s supposed to do You want us to be thinking about these? What does this mean,

[00:15:20.50] spk_3:
Right, So it’s thinking about yourself in jail. It z it’s

[00:16:13.52] spk_5:
sustaining Great. It’s the stating expenses, investment expenses and then the you have to think sustaining an investment grants and the way you write these things are a bit different. I mean, sustaining is essentially you’re making the case in the proposal, the application for why we need to keep the doors open and keep doing what we’re doing. And I think these grants get driven by results. Here’s what we accomplished last year. Here’s what we have the promise of continuing to do this year with investment, grand proposals. You’re talking about kicking it up a notch, and you know where we’re going next to me. Here’s the roadmap here. The opportunities. This is why we’re trying to grow a program from $100,000.150,000 dollars. And the idea is it’s investment. I’m asking you to put money in with the promise. Or at least I’m the best of my ability. I’m promising that we’re going to get some stronger results. And so it’s, I think it’s a little the way the proposal gets presented it. It’s probably a little bit different in terms of some of the language and some of the presentation. Perhaps.

[00:16:23.16] spk_3:
Now, this sounds

[00:16:23.64] spk_0:
like some some of what was talked about in the panel. Ah, that we have had on last week.

[00:16:40.31] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah. You had a number of the grantmakers he talked about, You know that you have to not only just come in and show us the opportunities, but, you know, you have to show us that you have Ah, I’m going to use the metaphor of road map. You have an idea of how to get from point A to point B and why my money’s gonna make a difference. One of things. I talked to my students a lot about in the class at Columbia. Is that

[00:16:52.61] spk_0:
Yes, Professor. Go ahead. Sure you’re the sugar wisdom. You’re not a

[00:16:55.87] spk_5:
professor. You know, they we talked a lot about risk mitigation, which is maybe an odd thing to talk about in a class on grants. But

[00:17:05.28] spk_3:
the end of

[00:17:33.84] spk_5:
the day, a lot of what we’re doing for donors, just for major donor, you can do it for foundation is your mitigating risk. You don’t want the donor to feel that they’re putting a lot of risk on the table when they give you money. So in what we’re fortunate in the world of foundations as we can, right? A thoughtful grant proposal. Make a nice presentation. I can show you how to get from point A to point B so I can give you Exhibit A. So

[00:17:49.90] spk_0:
now subsumed in this by the way, road map, isa Fine, metaphor. Just you don’t go to automobiles that drive on roads, because then I won’t fall. You know, Like I said, I think the intra my first experience with a Phillips head screwdriver was very bad. So you can imagine me with a set of ratchets or whatever those things are called. Um,

[00:17:55.48] spk_3:
this sounds a lot like the Arno subsumed

[00:18:15.49] spk_0:
in this, though, is the thing that I get asked a lot of I hear a lot about it. Should you ask for overhead support in your in your grants and subsumed in all this is is a definite yes, right? I mean, you gotta keep the lights on. You keep salaries paid my approaching Mr Right

[00:18:16.31] spk_3:
way. What you are. I

[00:18:37.51] spk_5:
mean, that’s a question that comes up quite frequently. Is that do Foundation’s fund overhead expenses? I think First of all, there’s ah, there’s, ah, misguided notion that foundations don’t like to pay for overhead. There’s a few foundations who don’t, but most of them understand it, and they get it. Um, I mean,

[00:18:37.95] spk_3:
me that’s essential. These essential, essential expenses.

[00:18:40.24] spk_5:
They are essential

[00:18:41.44] spk_0:
to carry out the program if I can’t pay my rent.

[00:18:43.51] spk_5:
Exactly. And And the

[00:18:44.64] spk_3:
thing

[00:19:00.59] spk_5:
is, is that what what I I find sometimes is that when you really start looking at the costs and the expenditures from from an organization and how they’re supporting their programs, you find that expenses that are categorized as overhead or administrative or not I mean,

[00:19:02.78] spk_3:
I work

[00:19:11.96] spk_5:
with a lot of grassroots organizations. Were the CEO is coming out of her office, and she’s working with kids. And she’s working with families. Well,

[00:19:12.21] spk_3:
she’s not overhead.

[00:19:33.41] spk_5:
She’s actually also direct program. So, um, you know, I mean, first, you can’t have toe really hold your budget up to the mirror and say, you know, is this truly accurate? I mean, you know, there’s a lot of hard work and CEO is out there, especially in grassroots organizations where they’re essential. And so there are probably more of their costs. Might be included in a program budget for a grant proposal.

[00:19:45.14] spk_0:
Hard working for sure, we know that. Absolutely. Um, yeah. So

[00:19:47.94] spk_3:
Yet, uh, you got

[00:19:53.93] spk_0:
any client story that comes to mind? Like we’re you know, they were thinking low and you encourage them to think bigger. And they ended up being successful. Maybe they didn’t get every dollar they asked for, but they got something bigger than you. Bigger than they were initially asking for.

[00:20:05.75] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:20:06.18] spk_5:
I mean, and, uh,

[00:20:10.69] spk_0:
I should hope so. I put you on the spot. It never happened. And then we cut the mikes.

[00:20:13.64] spk_5:
No, absolutely

[00:20:14.61] spk_0:
not. yours. You cut mine. Well covered like

[00:20:23.10] spk_5:
Well, first of all, I just tryto look, it goes back to the light bulb. You know, I just don’t you you know, I’m just I’m just simply illuminating what’s in front of us a lot of times, and I find that I have probably any number of stories where working with a client and all I have to do is show them that this foundation could give more money and they said, Well, G, I think I have these opportunities and get them to think of three. Or like, Hey, I think I’ve got something. I could take the foundation

[00:20:44.74] spk_3:
and they do a

[00:20:45.24] spk_5:
fabulous job of presenting an engaging the thunder. Maybe I’ve you shown them that opportunity, but at the end of the day, you know I want to give credit where credit’s due. My my current clients raise good money because my clients are really good. Smart people were doing great work

[00:21:00.03] spk_3:
collaboration. You’re also contribute modest, surprised to find

[00:21:04.18] spk_0:
a modest professor. There aren’t too many of those, and I said no, professor, but I’m going to

[00:21:07.63] spk_5:
start a band called Modest professed

[00:21:11.50] spk_0:
It’ll be D L B everything in your life is deal be about the ball. Yes. Modest Professor deal

[00:21:59.13] spk_5:
bu But he asked me a specific example. I mean, recently I was working with I am working with ah, wonderful charity on DDE. They help kids with cancer. And you know what? What was really great was they had this wonderful opportunity to apply for a grant from a major national foundation and they had a great contact. And I think the early conversations was about a fairly modest create, maybe $10,000. And when we said that really looked at what the opportunity iwas, um you know, what could this charity do you expect with shoestrings, like 10,000 bucks a shoestring? And what’s the shoot that she turned out to be $50,000. So we worked up a proposal at $50,000 the upshot is the foundation funded. It is that they felt like it was a really good investment for their money, and I think they’re probably gonna be happier Giving the $50,000 seeing what they get is a result.

[00:22:12.46] spk_3:
Look, just in case

[00:22:13.16] spk_0:
any of our listen, my voice just broke a 14 year old voice. Christ, get out! A case

[00:22:20.64] spk_3:
of our, um uh, any case. I mean,

[00:23:14.25] spk_0:
Elizabeth, it’s just have to be your first show. I mean, there’s over 12,000 of you, so, you know, maybe some people come. I guess every week we get new additions if you want to. You know no more about the nuts and bolts the relationship, building specific strategies about that. You wanna listen to last week’s show because that was a panel from the foundation center that I moderated. And there’s a lot of discussion. That’s what we were based on. That old discussion was how to build your relationships with the with program officers, foundations, foundations are made up of people. So that’s, you know, like certain decibel John and I today our, um, more higher level, enormously valuable. And there’s all this strategy and planning and gold setting thinking through what you’re gonna ask. This is enormously relevant to. But last week was Maur detail, I guess nuts and bolts on the relationship building here today we’re in Baltimore, strategic and high level. You

[00:23:23.27] spk_3:
see how the show fits together. You know that people think this just comes. It doesn’t just happen. This thing is planned out

[00:23:33.37] spk_0:
contrary toe the belief of 12,000 people listening. But it is planned. So I just got lucky this week and last week. S

[00:23:36.02] spk_3:
O okay, you have measures

[00:23:49.44] spk_0:
around some of these things. You have measures for each of your 99 strategies. Um, this one is just simple. What? What’s the ratio of sustaining grants to investment grants? So we want to see Maur, I presume?

[00:23:52.77] spk_3:
What? See Maur investment grants, right? Thinking longer term and you’re going to grow your organization and its its capacity. Well, I’m actually

[00:24:28.29] spk_5:
trying to look for a healthier balance. I mean, um, yes, if I have a fair if I have a good core of sustaining grants first, Well, it says I have people who are renewing. Okay, so they like, I mean, think about foundations like subscribers. They love the program and they’re continuing to support a year over year of a year. That’s a that’s a great sign. But am I also bring in? You know, a good number of investment grants that kind of kid again and kick it up a notch and get meatloaf every night for dinner. But if I give him the topping on it every once a while. I mean, it gets more interesting. So there you go.

[00:24:52.04] spk_0:
Okay. This is a vegan show, so that was a bad metaphor. Uh, I just made that up just to embarrass you. Um, now, listeners, you can have anything you need, anything you want out of care for your overall lacto, You know, whatever. I belong to the park slope food co op, but you don’t have to. Um, yeah, eat whatever you like. Um,

[00:24:55.82] spk_3:
okay. Make sure you have the right grantmakers

[00:25:00.20] spk_0:
on your list. Okay? And

[00:25:00.82] spk_3:
and this sounds to me, this

[00:25:02.25] spk_0:
one sounds a little like it’s coordinated with your goals. You want your goals and your and the people, the organizations you’re asking for money from to be consistent. But you can say it more articulately than I can. I

[00:25:15.00] spk_3:
know what I mean

[00:25:24.70] spk_5:
by that is do you have Do you have recognized leaders supporting your program? I mean, um, if I just giving example, I work. I do a fair male work in the youth development world. Worked with various charities who do wonderful work here. And if they want to bring a new program online. Sometimes where my research starts and this isn’t terribly scientific, but it’s

[00:25:42.02] spk_3:
I look

[00:25:42.37] spk_5:
at. Well, who

[00:25:42.81] spk_3:
were

[00:26:06.75] spk_5:
the top 10 foundations funding this kind of work? Say, in New York City or in whatever community, Wherever you’re between your work, can I lend three of them? Can I bring three Thought leader foundations who work in this space to the table and have them funding my project? That’s that to me, that’s the right set of funders. I mean, that’s that helps me with my focus. So I’m not chasing money all over the place.

[00:26:11.40] spk_3:
Yeah, this is very strategic thinking.

[00:26:16.34] spk_0:
No, you’re not. You’re not just looking for foundations that support the work you do, but specifically, you know, some of the leadership foundations. Yeah. I support you.

[00:26:24.13] spk_3:
One of the

[00:26:24.71] spk_5:
things that about that panel discussion which I thought was so great I moderated. I think it was. Thank you. It was artful. Thank you. It was all thank you’s absolutely

[00:26:37.55] spk_0:
Thank you. I thank you again. Thank you very much for that. Thank you. The

[00:26:59.14] spk_5:
Thea it was just sit. There was so much conversation about partnership. I kept hearing it word over and over and over and over again. And I think foundations are looking for really good charities to partner with. And we should think about that on the set in reverse, like, Well, which foundations, though? I want partnering with me on this work that I’m going to d’oh! And that helps toe open that conversation makes the conversation natural. And it makes the proposal flow. I mean, were there for a reason.

[00:27:14.14] spk_0:
All right, Um, John Hicks, I got to, uh, ask you to hold on temporarily because, uh,

[00:28:50.81] spk_4:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software, Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that you’ve heard me talk about. They understand you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two. I’m channeling you small and midsize nonprofits each week. When I heavily produced expertly produced the show, I’m channeling you the listeners in small and midsize non profit. I’m thinking about who are the best guests What are the best topics when I get a guest and I’m thinking about talking to them. I’m thinking What? What do you want to know? What? Um, what is going to be helpful to you? Toe, bring a discussion item to your supervisor CEO board. Um, toe, have a discussion within just within your office. Um, sometimes it’s action steps, things you can do. What? You know, I’m drilling down with guests. What can we be doing? Not just thinking about, but what can we be doing? One of the first couple steps we need to take. So, uh, I always am just thinking about what you want to know. And that’s why I’m channeling you. Always small and midsize, non profit where our listeners are where you are. Um,

[00:28:51.25] spk_3:
I say a little

[00:28:59.99] spk_4:
more about this on a video which you will find, as always, at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony. Take two. Now back to turbo. Charge your grants. Fundraising with John Hicks.

[00:29:11.97] spk_3:
Back to you now. John Hicks. We’re gonna get this. Keep terrible. Charging. All right. Oh, that was your That was your word. I decided I would use it. A lot of times.

[00:29:15.24] spk_0:
I don’t. I’ll use what guests, uh, recommend that the log topic says or what? Their article says that I like, but

[00:29:22.17] spk_3:
I I thought,

[00:29:23.01] spk_4:
you know, it would

[00:29:30.49] spk_0:
be adventurous. Let’s go with turbo charge. All right. I made an exception for you. Thank you, tony. My pleasure. Um,

[00:29:31.80] spk_3:
let’s move on. So did we say everything? Well, we see everything we want to say about the right grantmakers before we move way.

[00:29:38.16] spk_5:
We’ve, uh We’ve started with goals that didn’t leave. We’ve kind of looked internally. What do we need to do by way of list? Bill Building. Now, we’re gonna start talking about some external things.

[00:29:48.22] spk_3:
Okay? Okay. So that’s what you want to talk about.

[00:29:51.43] spk_5:
Well, we start with the next one, which is building your V. Q.

[00:30:00.19] spk_0:
Vic, you get us out and get yourself out of drug in jail. What’s that? And define your

[00:30:55.05] spk_5:
visibility question. Yeah, which is, you know, is what it is. He I mean, the idea is that you want to be visible. I, um I think that grantmakers don’t I work in a bubble. Sometimes we think that you know, grantmakers, they sit in their offices and they kind of stay in their on their side of the street. We stay on our side of the street. The reality is that a lot of grantmakers air just out there and looking. They’re very aware of our community of practice and they get to know who we are largely by our just being out there and being visible. So, you know, any time I’m working with a nonprofit organization and the CEO gets out of his or her office and they go to events and they are in the press and they are writing and they’re speaking and they’re publishing and they’re advocating grantmakers get to know them And I think that counts. And I feel that a part of that quote unquote turbocharging um process

[00:31:05.27] spk_0:
thesis turbocharging to the ground. Now we’re

[00:31:19.81] spk_5:
not gonna beat it to program. A part of it is, the more you’re out there and you’re raising the visibility for your mission and your agency in your work, the better it is for you. I mean, it helps you with framing your grant proposal and who you are and what you’re able to dio

[00:31:23.79] spk_0:
credibility. Is that very good? There was another word for this credibility, but that will be your CQ. But you prefer Vik, you we’ll be secret. Well, it could be CQ, right? All right. I don’t want to write your block post anything, all right? And

[00:31:36.66] spk_5:
it could be fashionable. B g Q. So

[00:31:40.10] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Uh, that would be your

[00:31:44.96] spk_3:
grandson. Your grants quotient there. Um, now, a lot of this came out

[00:31:46.84] spk_0:
in the panel from last week. People we were talking a lot about networking being visible in the community. Going to events? Yes. And you start to get known essentially what? Same as you’re saying,

[00:31:58.49] spk_5:
right? And and, uh,

[00:32:00.01] spk_3:
the only

[00:32:07.81] spk_5:
maybe new once I’d throw on this is that I mean, there’s there’s visibility. I

[00:32:07.95] spk_3:
like the thing

[00:32:31.84] spk_5:
about visibility with content. And what I mean by this is you can go to parties and goto events, and you can meet people. But what do you leaving them with? What impression are you making? And so some of the things we’re gonna be talking about such a CZ. You know, your strategic agenda where your organization’s going next part of is having a story to tell someone when you meet that grantmakers, here’s here. We are. Here’s the opportunities that are in front of us. Love to come and talk to you more about it. So you know you’re peeking their interest.

[00:32:56.32] spk_0:
Yeah, for sure. You you want to not only be visible, but you wantto have credibility behind that content behind that. You wanna make a good first impression? Imagine how good it would be if if a funder got your application and already knew your name knew the organization name before they, even when the application arrives right there. Knew in advance. Right, Because you’re in the community. And, of course, being in the community includes the the online communities, the online network. You want to build your vic, You there as well?

[00:33:14.98] spk_5:
Absolutely. I mean any. You know, the way I look at it is the when your proposal shows up in the foundation’s office with a bunch of other proposals. If

[00:33:19.85] spk_3:
they’ve

[00:33:47.44] spk_5:
heard of you, they’re going to pick up them. The look on their going to read the letter. They’re gonna read the proposal. I can’t pretend that doesn’t happen. Yeah, there’s a wonderful book which I have my students at Columbia read every semester by a guy named Martin ty tell which is the insider’s guide, the grantmaking. And it’s a great behind the scenes look at the grantmaking process. And, um and he talks about things like this. I mean, you know that. You know, if we know something about the organization, it doesn’t hurt.

[00:34:02.58] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Have you ever seen where a foundation approached? A Ah, a potential fundy Ah, non profit and asked

[00:34:06.71] spk_4:
for a asked for a proposal.

[00:34:48.94] spk_5:
I was sure it happens all the time. Does I think it does? I think that, um um particularly the foundations who hire professionals. I mean, think about this way. Part of your job when you work for a foundation is to make the board of the foundation smarter about what’s going on in the world that they’re being asked to fund in. So if you’re out there, if I work for foundation and I get to know something about the work of your organization, I might pick up the phone, call you and say, Hey, I want to learn more about you. Remember, one of my clients just got a call from a foundation. Pretty major foundation was any longer radar screen. They just called out of the blue and said We’ve been hearing about you would love to come and talk to you Have to stand. Absolutely.

[00:34:50.54] spk_0:
Wasn’t on your radar screen? No. Does that mean you’re doing defective research? Inadequate? No,

[00:34:59.04] spk_5:
No, this is Theo. This is actually a donor advised fund. Okay, that’s that’s a whole nother

[00:35:00.19] spk_0:
time. Can’t find Yeah, those air, those air buried What? Their funding is very, very hard to find. Yeah, it’s not. It’s not public, really. It’s not anywhere, is it?

[00:35:09.35] spk_5:
It’s really not

[00:35:19.90] spk_0:
now. Okay. All right. No negligent research by deal. BX make that clear. Make that explicit. They do not do negligent research. Okay. Um

[00:35:20.95] spk_3:
okay. Strengthening your network. This is very

[00:35:27.34] spk_0:
much related. Strengthening your network, um, strong foundation. And you know grantmakers Air are there doing this? You want to be wanted again? You won’t be out and and known in the community.

[00:36:45.47] spk_5:
Yes, it might be a question. You know, I would be asking this question, which is? Well, what’s the difference between your visibility quotient and the network? Well, a network is actually taking a role of X and all the people that you’re meeting and all the people who are supporting you and beginning to reverse engineer it a bit. You know, one of your Panelists on the show last week and talked about or gave a great example of. Well, if I’m funding you, I could introduce you to other funders. And that happens more frequently than that was a good conversation. Oh, absolutely. And it makes a lot of sense because usually a, um think of it this way. Foundation, once they’ve written the cheque and their supporting you there a stakeholder they have a vested interest in seeing you bring other money to the table to build on what they’ve helped you to creator to grow or expand. And there’s nothing wrong with working that in reverse. You know, just a strategy, a tip for everyone, and I’m seeing this work is tthe e get a fund or get one of your grantmakers. Ask them to host some kind of a gathering where you can come in and talk about your work and what you’re seeing as a result of your work or talk about a topic. Were they inviting to this? They’re usually inviting grantmakers, whom they know because they want to help you get your story out there and get people to know you. I mean, it’s not a solicitation. You’re gonna be handing out pledge cards

[00:37:01.29] spk_3:
on the individual side. It’s the same is like a parlor Gather.

[00:37:07.31] spk_5:
Exactly. Exactly. It’s you know, uh, it’s always better in the parlor. This is usually the board room, but

[00:37:10.78] spk_0:
well, yeah, because it’s institutional, But there

[00:37:12.96] spk_4:
are parallels

[00:37:13.73] spk_5:
you get.

[00:37:14.30] spk_3:
Don’t don’t Don’t hurt

[00:37:22.27] spk_0:
my analogy. I mean, I went along with your metaphors. Metaphors and analogies are important. Yes, I adopted your terrible judgment metaphor. So, you know, you certainly couldn’t support my analogy.

[00:37:24.74] spk_5:
I’m totally supporting her nails.

[00:37:26.17] spk_3:
It isn’t involved. It’s analogous ball. That’s what makes it an analogy

[00:37:29.46] spk_5:
of all is

[00:37:30.83] spk_3:
okay. Um, yeah. So you’ve seen this work you’ve seen? This absolutely wonders will do it. It’s common. It’s more common than you think. I I think merging Throw tip now. Well, you know,

[00:37:41.79] spk_5:
beyonc? This is This is a pretty old school approach. Mean they were doing it then. They felt they stopped doing it. Mean grantmakers, then Now they’re doing it again. Um, I think the the key to making this happen is being ableto walk in with a presentation that has really information. It’s not just a come meet my agency.

[00:38:03.08] spk_3:
I think this

[00:38:03.82] spk_0:
is what’s happening in this area. Yeah. In this fund, in this priority that we know you’re all funding, right? Here’s what we’re seeing. Here’s troubles we see coming in the future. Here’s opportunities. Yeah, right. It’s sort of analysis. Like a market announce.

[00:38:27.62] spk_5:
Yeah, exactly. Euros. Every positioning yourself is a thought leader. You know, I have information for you. I have some best practices for you, and they can get a good conversation going.

[00:38:45.18] spk_0:
Okay. I love that. Okay. Uh, yeah. I don’t think my right, it’s not. I don’t think a lot of people are thinking that way. It’s great and approach to approach your funders and ask them to, uh, to do it. Okay. So

[00:38:45.41] spk_3:
what’s your measures

[00:38:46.12] spk_0:
for that one for strengthening your network?

[00:38:48.40] spk_3:
I mean, the measures

[00:39:06.94] spk_5:
I have here you have any meetings with colleagues or potential donors that we secure? I think a big part of it is Did you get out of your office and go meet with your grantmakers? Did you did you meet with colleagues? Did you? Um Hey, how much did you use that role of X and the other is, you know how many potential grand tours that we add to the network.

[00:39:11.77] spk_3:
That’s the

[00:39:25.88] spk_5:
other thing, too. Is is you can meet grantmakers and not ask them for money. But you can get to know them, add them to the network. Maybe the timing isn’t right. Maybe you are not ready for a billable of the Gates Foundation grant. That doesn’t prevent you from getting a no program Officer Gates mean. Maybe they can’t give you money, But maybe they can suggest other people. You can talk to me. I find a lot of its disappearance. Simple networking.

[00:39:35.29] spk_3:
What would your

[00:39:38.74] spk_0:
follow up B to, ah, to an event like that? Eyes the non profit that presents

[00:40:13.30] spk_5:
what’s interesting. I just had a conversation with a client before camp here for the show. I’m aware that I heard about what we’re talking about about that well, years, years, years, sketchy, very deep. Don’t don’t underestimate I I am not underestimating you. Slice it. It’s essentially they’re producing a white paper on one topic, and they’re gonna use that as the follow up to an event. So they’re gonna have some grantmakers in the room and they can follow up with content, so demonstrate how good you are. And there you have it.

[00:40:14.96] spk_0:
Take a break. Indulge me for a break momentarily, please.

[00:40:37.96] spk_4:
It’s time for our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news you need to comment on so that you stay relevant. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for turbo charge your grants. Fundraising.

[00:40:42.12] spk_0:
Now’s time to finish up with John Hicks and turbocharging the metaphor that I very graciously I think adopted. John. John doesn’t acknowledge that grabbed the graciousness, but But I acknowledge it for myself.

[00:40:57.31] spk_3:
Okay, um, have we exhausted? Oh, and then you had one more

[00:41:01.03] spk_0:
measure for strengthen your network. How many potential grantmakers? No, you did say that. How many do we add to our network? And they were talking about the follow up. See, that’s my trouble Cone and coming back. Um, follow up. Anything more to say about content Paper seems like a very good idea.

[00:41:20.11] spk_5:
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, just come out. Come back with something that would be useful to the thunder. And, um, yes. Sometimes we So the grants starts with not asking for money but giving the thunder something that they can use.

[00:41:36.21] spk_0:
Okay, for sure. Giving them? Yeah. You’re a team player. You’re adding value to the community, right? That we’re all funding. Okay, You got build a bigger footprint. What is this all about?

[00:41:40.56] spk_3:
Building

[00:42:34.94] spk_5:
a bigger footprint is, um think about two things. One which is can I take the work that I’m doing and how my leveraging it leveraging means either working in partnership with another organization or being a resource to another organization? Uh, I made that you provide the kind of service is your charity does, tony. But maybe you were able to refer kids or families to me, and I can help. Well, that’s building a bigger footprint. Another way of building a bigger footprint. Could be working on a consortium product project. Excuse me. And another way I think about is deepening the impact of what you’re doing. I mean, I’ve worked with a lot of organizations where they may work on a program where the maximum number of kids they conserve might be 50 60 70 is less than 100 kids. But if they’re able to provide a deeper level of service, that’s expanding the footprint because they’re going to get stronger results and it becomes a demonstration site and, ah, place toe test out. Best practices. So you’re changing the conversation. It’s not just a program. It’s helping 70 kids. It’s It’s actually working in a very deep and meaningful way.

[00:42:53.40] spk_0:
This is related to one of the earlier points. It was the 1st 1 that investment in long, long term investment type. Grant seeking.

[00:43:00.74] spk_5:
Exactly. Exactly. So. I just think it’s you leverage as much as you possibly can.

[00:43:07.38] spk_0:
Well, you just rewarding these things that you could come up with nine. You know, it was you had seven. Like you had six, and then you weren’t satisfied. That seemed weak. So you had There are little

[00:43:16.77] spk_3:
different. They are a little different. I don’t want these padded.

[00:43:20.05] spk_5:
They’re not padded. I guarantee they’re not.

[00:43:27.36] spk_3:
Um, we’re on you here. You know, we don’t We don’t accept Aah! Slack content

[00:44:33.99] spk_0:
on non profit radio. No, we don’t have that here. We never have. Except that one time we did the show on on, um on? Ah, fermentation. Oh, yeah, that was That was that was bad content. I thought I thought we’d try something completely unrelated, Which was in the podcast world. Big mistake. But I learned immediately fermentation in the middle of the guests. That wasn’t even happy. But I I couldn’t shut him off. I didn’t have a heart. I invited him. It was my idea. Okay, Fermentation. That was bad content. But that was one out of 377 shows. This happens to be shown over 377. So you could forgive 11 377th actually. And then if you count the number of guests, I mean, lots of shows have two guests, so, you know, we’re up like, 800 get r, and then some have four guests. So were over 1000 guests. So, like, one out of 1001. 1000.1 That that 1 1000? Yeah, that’s not 1 10,000 10.1 Is that one? 1000. Did that felt that is 1 1,001,000 So 1 1/1000 of the guests being slack. You should stick with no prob radio. It’s a safe bet.

[00:44:36.43] spk_5:
I’m gonna do all my budgets.

[00:44:38.29] spk_3:
That was

[00:44:50.79] spk_0:
a small digression, but, um, yeah. Now you don’t want to be doing numerical analysis. I didn’t even know I wasn’t sure. What? The 0.111 1000. The two interns in the room looking it up. They haven’t even answered it yet. Um,

[00:44:53.09] spk_3:
I need an intern. I need an intern if everybody I need somebody to blame for this. So So you know, the 1 1000 I need something

[00:44:59.51] spk_0:
to blame on that blame that on. So if you if you can suggest if you know anybody want to be an intern for non profit radio, have them come have them send a resume, because I need somebody to blame. Um,

[00:45:10.77] spk_3:
let’s move on to Ah. Oh, now we get into the thistles with strategic agenda. You’ve been teasing this all show strategic agenda. What is it?

[00:45:18.37] spk_5:
Well, strategic agenda is, um

[00:45:20.99] spk_3:
I don’t

[00:45:21.69] spk_5:
know if I’m among the only one uses this term, but

[00:45:25.35] spk_3:
I mean, it’s just basically

[00:47:03.57] spk_5:
being able to say to a grantmakers, here’s where we’re going the next 18 24 36 months. And here’s where our focus gonna pee. And here, the most important things that we need to be doing to make a significant difference in the world. Um, I mean, you could say strategic plan, but whenever I say the word strategic plan, clients inevitably think, well, are we looking at going through a six month, nine month process of planning and introspection? Sometimes they’re just doesn’t time to do that. And what I’m just trying to come up with is, you know, if you met a grantmakers tomorrow and you want to try toe, have a conversation to get that grantmakers a really interested in possibly giving you money, I’d like to be able to not just say, Here’s my mission statement. Here is the work we’re doing. It’s wow. Let me tell you about the opportunities we have. We’re going to be doing a, B, C, D and E, and you had a number of grantmakers on that panel going back to last week’s show who talked about. It’s better not to come to us with just one idea, asking us to find it, because I mean, when the panel said what if you pitch the wrong thing to me and I say no, then the conversation stops come to me with a general overview of what you’re doing. So yeah, walking with a general overview. But the way you I think undress this up is to say, Hey, here’s where I have some opportunities to accomplish some really exciting good for people And whatever the time horizon you’re working with getting 12 18 36 whatever the number of months and you could piqued

[00:47:04.22] spk_3:
their interest, how do you prove that

[00:47:11.47] spk_0:
the money would be well spent? Because it’s it’s all it’s all perspective.

[00:47:57.15] spk_5:
Well, if you’re gonna put anything up a strategic agenda, you you have to have your hands around the numbers like, you know, right now, I mean, think of one client where they’ve launched for fairly new initiatives in the last year. And those initiatives air showing promise. They’re working in some challenging communities here in New York City. They know their numbers. They know how many families they’re working with. They know how many kids and adults are impacted. They all said no how much they could grow this program if they were able to bring in enough money. So their story if we meet any funders that you know, we’re working with 9000 people across four sites. We know we have the ability and the opportunity to work with 15,000. Our budget is X. If we’re able to raise it toe, why we can make this happen?

[00:48:02.13] spk_3:
That’s a

[00:48:04.27] spk_5:
pretty powerful story. So? So, grantmakers. Maybe that’s a good use of your money.

[00:48:06.62] spk_3:
Excellent. Excellent. John’s giving. You think he just He just wrote you

[00:48:10.77] spk_0:
a template for ah, one paragraph. You got expand on that. You got what you need. You need deal. Be hicks to help you out. So

[00:48:20.47] spk_3:
all right, let’s go to our last Ah, our last

[00:48:20.89] spk_0:
of the turbo charging strategies. Know where you’re heading next?

[00:48:39.54] spk_5:
Yeah. So it means the end of this strategic agenda. Yeah, it’s like essentially, yeah, this gets us in the long term. Do we? Do we have a long term story for our agency or do we It’s you know, if we’re able to go from A to B in the next 36 months, but just kind of looking out beyond the horizon, you know, this is where we think we’re going next.

[00:48:47.72] spk_3:
This is

[00:49:15.96] spk_5:
the part of a conversation with a grantmakers. Andi. Even sometimes it gets evidence with the application of proposal that proves to grantmakers that you have a clear understanding of who you are, where you’re going, where you sit in your field and that you have a You have a realistic sense of scope, and I think that’s awfully, awfully important. You’re able to do this and you engage in a different level than you get the money and you turbo charge.

[00:49:17.87] spk_0:
Oh, John,

[00:49:24.93] spk_3:
look, Look the wrap up, he does. You see that? Look at that, huh? And you turbo charge. All right, we gotta leave it there. He’s John Hicks, c f r ee

[00:49:28.20] spk_0:
You’ll find him at de lb Hicks and deal be hicks dot com. Deal be, of course, Don’s lightbulb.

[00:49:35.57] spk_3:
Thank you very much, John Hook.

[00:49:36.99] spk_5:
Well, thank you for having me on

[00:49:38.30] spk_0:
real pleasure having you back. Thank you.

[00:50:13.29] spk_4:
Next week. Be a disrupter with Chris Field. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Coca Mountain software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot c e o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:50:15.23] spk_3:
Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is

[00:50:25.35] spk_2:
by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. That information Scotty Do

[00:50:26.98] spk_3:
with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

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Coronavirus needs no introduction. We’re recording on Monday, March 23rd. Nonprofits are scrambling and struggling. The scrambling to adapt to workflow and personal upheavals will subside. The struggle will get worse: The need among those you help has increased and will become greater. Expenses of all sorts, from helping those in need, to disinfecting offices, to increased reliance on technology, are rising. At the same time, there’s financial pressure on your individual donors, in the face of firings, layoffs and work reductions. Your institutional funders are also pressured, whether private or public. Is it wise to spend? Can you count on your donors when this is over? Can you fundraise in the midst of the crisis? My guest is Paul Schervish, retired director of the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College.

 

 

 

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[00:00:16.14] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:02:25.94] spk_0:
I’m your aptly named host. This is a special short episode of non profit radio Corona virus and non profit fundraising. Corona virus needs no introduction We’re recording on Monday, March 23rd on profits are scrambling and struggling, scrambling to adapt to workflow, and personal upheavals will subside. The struggle will get worse. The need among those you help has increased and will become greater expenses of all sorts from helping those in need to disinfecting offices to increased reliance on technology are rising. At the same time, there’s financial pressure on your donors in the face of firings, layoffs, work reductions as the individual donors is also financial pressure on your institutional funders. Is it wise for you to spend? Can you count on your donors when this is over, whether individual or institutional, can you fund raise in the midst of the crisis? My guest is Paul Schervish, retired director of the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. My Cougar Mountain software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. It’s a great pleasure to welcome back to the show. Paul Schervish. He’s professor emeritus at Boston College and retired director of their Center on Wealth and Philanthropy. He’s the author of seven books on Giving and wealth. He’s been studying philanthropy for over 35 years. He’s at Paul Schervish. Great pleasure to welcome you back, Paul. How are you,

[00:02:32.87] spk_6:
tony? It’s a pleasure to be back. I’m just doing fine. Laying low, being an elder statesman, or at least another.

[00:02:38.77] spk_2:
No, you’re You’re here to provide context. Historical context. Which eyes going to reassure all of us. So the elder statesman is appropriate on. Where are you? Ah, where you staying? In place.

[00:03:04.57] spk_6:
We’re in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, where we moved from Boston. Ah, for 1/2 year. We live in Boston the other half of the year where our two boys live. But down here, um, is where our first grandchild arrived. And so we spend half the year down here.

[00:03:12.10] spk_2:
All the reason to move only only half the year. I’m surprised your wife, your wife would like to stay longer. I’m wondering.

[00:03:15.98] spk_6:
No, not at all. Because they’re two boys live in Boston. Grandchildren there, too. So, uh, there we go.

[00:03:22.82] spk_3:
Okay. Well, I’m, uh I’m several hours east

[00:03:36.84] spk_2:
of you. I’m on the coast in Emerald Isle, North Carolina, also also in place. And the governor today just ah, closed. Um, what

[00:03:37.22] spk_3:
did you do

[00:03:40.54] spk_0:
today? Today was just Ah, we already had. Oh, that was a local. Yeah, the governor today. Locally, they

[00:03:59.24] spk_2:
had they had done some things. But the governor of North Carolina today, Governor Cooper just closed. Um, beauty salons, massage therapists, barbershops, movie theaters, Jim’s, um right Cooper, Governor. Right, Cooper. Um all right,

[00:04:09.48] spk_3:
So what, uh, what’s your star general know? What’s your what’s your sense

[00:04:10.18] spk_2:
of what non profits are facing and should look forward to?

[00:07:06.64] spk_6:
Well, I hate to quote Rumsfeld, but what we’re facing is those I’ve known unknowns that he talked about, remember? He said they were known unknowns, and there were unknown unknowns, remember? And this is a biological event of an unprecedented nature. Not in the extent that we haven’t had major plagues in history, and we can certainly trace back to the 2018. Clue 2019 flu. I’m in 1919 1918. Um, but this is unprecedented in that this is taking place in an age of dramatic globalization and interaction, coupled with the dramatic situation of biological and scientific progress and and potential insight. So right now, what we do know is that this spreads quickly. It has a death rate that we’re starting to learn may not be as great as we had once feared. But what we don’t know is its termination date and how it will exhaust itself. And so anything we’re going to talk about for charity’s contributing to their, um ah, receiving money from their sponsors or charities contributing to those that they support Our, uh, philanthropy is contributing. We don’t have a time frame for this, like we might have had for recessions and so on. And even for 2011 29 11 when we, um, actually had, uh, on increase of giving within a year. So, uh, sound like Zach and, uh, the great recession of 2007 2008 29. Um, we had about a five year decline and terrible giving. It went up in some of those years, but the trajectory of charitable giving was down for about five years. If you looked at it as going up from a year 2000 2 2007 and if that had continued to grow, um, we would have had 350 billion more dollars given to charity from 2008 to 2013. So we lost a year. Charitable giving if, um, the, um, trajectory from 27 had continued unabated. So that was a longer hiatus and terrible giving. We lost about it. Ah, whole year’s worth. Over those five years,

[00:07:13.64] spk_2:
the trajectory of charitable giving is always positive that the long term trajectory

[00:07:18.80] spk_6:
that’s correct,

[00:07:20.44] spk_2:
okay, that that in itself is grounding and and reassuring. We always it always does come back.

[00:07:37.31] spk_6:
And I also think it’s important to note that something that Patrick Rooney and I Patrick from the Center on Philanthropy in Indiana and I have talked about is that even giving us A is a low ball estimate. We think there’s a lot more giving then what we can measure Ah, in a meaningful and in a sober manner. And this giving, of course, does not include all the informal giving that accelerates at this time that people don’t realize she could be recorded his formal giving or that people are giving and shouldn’t be recorded as formal giving. And it isn’t so. There’s a lot of intra family help at times like this that actually does make up for quote unquote the decline and formal giving. Oh,

[00:08:24.54] spk_2:
interesting. Yeah. So you’re you’re yes. You’re bringing now family family support. It’s just private support. Me. Could be family. Could be friends.

[00:08:33.22] spk_6:
That’s right.

[00:08:33.89] spk_2:
That’s not recorded as a CZ. You and I talk about non profit fundraising.

[00:08:39.43] spk_6:
That’s right.

[00:08:40.30] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. All right,

[00:08:42.54] spk_3:
All right. So then, you know, the non profit community

[00:09:00.24] spk_2:
has greater expenses. Like I was saying in the intro, whether it’s technology or disinfecting offices or, you know, uh, you are, of course, greater need to, uh to the to those who were serving and

[00:09:13.35] spk_3:
that just that doesn’t apply only to, uh, institutions, organizations that serve individuals. But, you know, culture is important. Yeah, Theater’s air closed now, but cultural institutions need to keep themselves going, whether It’s a museum or a theater group. Okay, These these air both closed now, um, but they’re gonna come back. And so the theater group theatre company needs to have ah ah. Pipeline of directors and shows planned. Um, the museum needs to think about, you know, curating for the future on being opened again. Will they will open again. So I’m not only

[00:09:44.31] spk_2:
thinking of individuals and, you know, bring in arts groups and environment of course. Mean so

[00:09:53.94] spk_3:
the work has to continue. And, um, in some cases,

[00:10:05.77] spk_2:
there’s a special, special, greater need, but the upset cause is greater expenses, too. Like I said, possibly reliance on technology irrespective of what kind of mission. So

[00:10:11.24] spk_3:
in the face of these greater needs, whatever form they take, um, are we safe to be spending

[00:10:14.24] spk_2:
beyond what we anticipated? Beyond what we what we budgeted?

[00:14:11.09] spk_6:
Well, the answer that I told my students over all the years that is the first answer of wisdom is that it depends. It depends on what kind of organization we’re talking about. Depends on whether a hospital depends on whether we’re receiving as a nonprofit organization or as a public organization. State funds to keep going. Let’s think of it as what we’re hearing from the federal government. What we’re hearing from state governments. There’s two arenas. One is the, um the people, the employees. And there’s a certain amount of expenditure that charities are going to need to support their employees. They way they want to support people in the community. It’s hard to treat your employees more harshly. Then you want a treat. You’re, um uh, the people in the community, Uh, these are your family members, so to speak. And so Charity’s first of all have an obligation, too. And we’ll find, I think, happy response among thunders for keeping employees uh, engaged and hired. Now we’re gonna have to work out the way there is the government non profit partnership here because of people are quote laid off that has some of their salary played paid for by unemployment benefits. And so maybe there’s unemployment benefits that the state the government will provide, and then the non profit makes up for that difference. To keep people from quitting or joining another, uh, employment opportunity. You see how this can get complex In a second area is the institution itself the survival of the institution. And just as the government is providing money for businesses to continue to exist so that there’s places for employees after the troubles are over, um, the nonprofit sector has to keep going in a way that there’s a place for the employees to be working and their jobs to be contributing to the community when the crisis is over, if there is a need for layoffs and we can talk about what donors may think about, but let’s just take one place to start. Let’s start with organizations that have no endowment versus for those with the small endowment versus for those with a grand endowment and what they can do. I think most universities they’re not laying people off, especially those with it was a great endowment. Um, they have the tuition for the year, even if their tuition driven. They have there the most of their revenue already in the coffers. They’re going to continue to grant credits, and they’re going to be able to keep their income stream alive at least until the beginning of the next semester. So that’s just one example. Often organization that may not need a dramatic infusion of charitable dollars at this point, and that takes us to the donor. The donor is goingto have to be picking and choosing maybe one that has contributed ah, large amount over years to uneducated l Institution might for the next six months shift that giving away from an organization that doesn’t need the money it much immediately to an organization that is proceed to be much more in need immediately

[00:14:15.78] spk_3:
now. So, historically, have we seen a shift like that? Have we measured that?

[00:14:56.45] spk_6:
Yes, wenn er the great recession took place 2008 2009 We found, as I said, a decrease in charitable giving overall. But giving too social service is was sustained much better. And after after 9 11 1 of the reasons why charitable giving didn’t go down. It was before we had this kind of crisis Fatigue, charity, fatigue.

[00:14:59.44] spk_7:
Um uh,

[00:15:27.84] spk_6:
9 11 produced a lot of charitable giving, and if it did it for the people that were, uh, immediate loss for their, um, family life and way of making a living, and it did it for communities and for businesses that were caught in that trap. And so the money shifted in 20 in the great recession. And it also shifted for crisis relief in on 9 11

[00:15:47.24] spk_2:
Okay, Yeah. 9 11 is a bit of a different case, because the funders, whether institutional or individual, we’re not enormously impacted the way we are are all now impacted.

[00:16:02.64] spk_6:
One time shock. Yes, rather than an indefinite period of time that effects that the wealth of the donors, um, directly run in. And you’re very correct about that.

[00:16:07.33] spk_2:
Yeah. Um, so that I don’t want to discount 9 11 lessons. I’m not. No,

[00:16:12.26] spk_6:
no, no, you’re not. You’re not, But it’s a very good point

[00:16:23.24] spk_2:
context. The great recession seems Maur. Ah, more of an apt analogy. Um, for that reason, if

[00:17:18.68] spk_6:
you ever want to know what’s going to happen, the philanthropy look at the income and wealth. Gross or declines that fire outstrips any tax effects that are written about all the time in the nonprofit sector. Worries about all the time. Um, we had a natural experiment after the great recession. Um, there was no change in the tax laws that took place for those five or six years. No, except the tiny bit in the marginal tax rate for capital gains. But that was not that important. Okay, so without any tax change, we saw a dramatic decrease and terrible giving due to the decrease in wealth and an income. And the income effect and the wealth effect far outstrip any of these tax effects that the charity’s air always be moaning. Whenever they hear that there might be a decrease in taxes. They feel that the discount rate for donors is going down, and they’re going to give less. Well, in the past, that may have been the case. But today, wealth is growing normally so greatly that far outstrips any effect that the tax rates have.

[00:17:45.94] spk_2:
All right, now, people don’t feel so wealthy right now.

[00:17:49.09] spk_6:
That’s right. And that’s why that’s very important.

[00:17:51.42] spk_2:
They don’t write and they don’t know for how long. They’re not gonna feel so wealthy.

[00:17:58.24] spk_6:
Are these so wealthy? Yeah,

[00:17:58.95] spk_2:
I was. Yeah,

[00:18:03.40] spk_6:
I was returning. Dollars have been lost in the stock market, right over 1/3

[00:18:04.35] spk_2:
of value in the

[00:18:05.30] spk_6:
market has been lost.

[00:18:37.04] spk_2:
Yeah, you’re right. I’m I’m thinking of the perception you’re grounding in the reality, but e I mean, they’re both The reality creates the perception, your question of how long after the reality subs theat reality improves, Does the perception linger? But right now we’re in the midst of the reality, the reality of the perception of equal. Now we’ve lost a lot of wealth. Couple trillion dollars. Um, people are concerned about their jobs. Whether the jobs will continue or or just be reduced. Working hours be reduced. So incomes reduced so over people are not feeling wealthy.

[00:19:29.04] spk_6:
Well, I’m gonna command Is that that for that insight about the sensibility of it did not in addition to the objective reality, because our own research has shown that over a period of time, very wealthy, um have an objective view of their financial security, but also a subject of one. And the lower the subjective you, no matter what their objective circumstances, the less they give to charity. And it is also true for people who are not wealthy, for whom income studies have been done. And when people feel that their incomes were going to rise over the next few years, um, they will give more to charity than those who feel that they’re not going to be rising. So it is even without the objective circumstance. Your note about the sensitivity is very important. And that does linger just as you suggested.

[00:19:51.74] spk_2:
I’m talked to a lot of experts. I’m trainable. I’ve heard this a few times, so I Hi, I’m trainable. Um

[00:19:54.36] spk_3:
all right. So what does that mean

[00:19:59.74] spk_2:
for fundraising? Look, I don’t mean this week or this month, even still March,

[00:20:08.64] spk_3:
but what does it mean for fundraising? Thio help counter

[00:20:13.31] spk_2:
some of these increased expenses in Let’s say, you know, April, May June, do we

[00:20:17.05] spk_3:
have to just wait and see? Ah, how people feel or or can we go out and test our our constituents for for fundraising messages?

[00:24:48.84] spk_6:
I think that what we have to do is have a fundraising message that’s functional. Are we disappearing? And are my workers disappearing? Or are we going to be able to survive? Now there’s two sides of this when we talk about a arts organization, a museum or theater, they have funding from fundraise from by fundraising, but they also have revenue from attendance. And so those that are losing revenue by attendance from lack of attendance are going to be suffering more than those that are just able to keep their revenue alive. Um, for instance, hospitals will be able to keep their revenue alive over this period of time. While arts groups may not be able to, universities may be able to keep the revenue stream alive Attn least until the fall, until we find out more of what’s happening. While some social service organizations may not be able to a large community foundations with endowments, um, we’ll be able to do better than those without endowments. Um uh, organizations that have AH connection to people with donor advised funds will do better because donor advised funds are are terrible savings accounts that people will be able to contribute from even if they can’t add to them at this point. So there’s all these dimensions. But what I would advise charities to do is to be very honest about two things. Their employees and there beneficiaries are their beneficiaries being taken care of without them at this point, and they can cut back on those service is or are those service is remaining the same? Are they increasing their employees? Are their employees going to be able to because of the revenue stream, mainly continue to be employed. Supermarkets, food banks, perhaps, and so on because they’re being supported by the community, Um, or by government, um, places where school systems air, providing our continue to provide the breakfast and lunch programs. They’re different from communities that are dropping those programs and need private funding for them. You follow all of this and I hope our listeners are So what I would do if I were a donor, as I would look to a charity and how honest it is to be about its two major instrumental needs. Its beneficiaries And those programs on the one hand and the second instrumental need its employees, and I would see what needs to be done about that. And you know what’s happening out there? Is that some donors air actually contacting charities and saying, What do you need? I know one family that contributes to an inner city school in Detroit, and we were talking with them, and what they did is they found out that that inner city grade school is using the chromebooks that that family has contributed two grades five through eight, and they asked, Do you need more chromebooks for your youngsters? that the parents can use with the kids. The answer came back. Not yet, but we may. But that was something that the donor asked about a specific thing that was specifically needed for continuing education for the lowers, the lowest grades in school, the way they’re continuing education for the middle school. And uh huh. So those things are happening.

[00:24:57.01] spk_2:
Yeah. So that’s right. That’s the individual that the donor reaching out to the charity. Maybe. Can we say, you know, I don’t know. Six. Well,

[00:25:02.35] spk_3:
there’s value in keeping in touch

[00:25:03.96] spk_2:
with your your major donors. You’re

[00:25:21.78] spk_3:
even if this is not the time to be asking them to give, but explaining what the needs are. You know, like that that example. You know, we don’t need Chromebooks now, but maybe in the future, you know, we’re stable now, but six weeks from now, we the needs, maybe X y z

[00:25:26.64] spk_6:
So, yes, that’s really

[00:25:28.31] spk_3:
being not asking, but communicating the needs, sort of like you would do with a friend or a family member, you know? No, I’m okay right now, but six weeks from now, I might need some help,

[00:26:06.14] spk_6:
you know, be in touch. Done kind of messages. Yeah, we call you. Yes, and I think that’s a great week. See, sometimes donors feel, um, neglected by not being asked. Isn’t that a strange thing? You know, you know, that’s one of the major things I call the new physics of philanthropy that instead of donors having to be approached and squeezed, donors are looking for a good opportunity to give. And especially if you’re already giving to an organization. You know, they value you and approach you just mentioned is a very good one to pursue.

[00:26:20.04] spk_2:
Same same as the board members who we find unsatisfied because they’re not sufficiently asked to contribute their their time and time and talent to the accusation that not asked to do enough. It’s the It’s a paradox that I’m asked. I’m not asked to do enough, so I’m losing interest in being a board member on the charity side. They’re afraid to ask the board members to doom or because they feel they’re over taxing them. Same. But

[00:26:50.19] spk_6:
I ran into a paradox one of the Kennedys at an event, and, uh, we’re

[00:26:52.04] spk_2:
dropping names now. Look, a dropping names, Kennedy family.

[00:27:25.44] spk_6:
Oh, no, no. There are in the Boston area, and it was one of the one of the younger kids and and we were he said, What do you do? And I’m going on He said, You know, one of things that happened the other day, I was really anxious to give to such and such, and they never asked me, and I was really kind of upset about that. You know, it’s just what we’re saying, and it’s a strange thing you may think, but you want to be valued for what you can do. And if you could do something, you want to be asked about it,

[00:27:28.74] spk_2:
right? And if now is not the time to be asking, now is a good time to be

[00:27:33.76] spk_3:
communicating about what’s happening at the organization, you know, telling your stories

[00:27:57.84] spk_2:
about employee dislocation. Um, parent employees who are now have kids at home that used to be in school, um, and telling the needs of the stories of your beneficiaries the stories of your building that you can’t access, but you’re still to pay rent on, um, you know,

[00:28:13.64] spk_3:
telling these stories the needs are just gonna be be evident and you’re not asking now, but you’re sort of laying the groundwork for asking when it’s, you know, six weeks of past or so 4 to 6 weeks of past. You’re starting to lay the groundwork. Not conniving Lee, but just being honest with laying, laying out the stories of what’s happening now, so that when the need is there, um, it’s not a surprise to your funders.

[00:30:07.20] spk_6:
Well, take you picking up on exactly what you’re saying. If I were to make one recommendation to charities and I have received from charities and from newsletters and from financial advisors, I’m on all these lists because I like to read and I’m reluctant to miss anything. And and most of them are telling us about the covert virus and what’s gonna happen and wash your hands and and we don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen. But you know, it’s time for the charities to start sending letters to their donors about themselves and their beneficiaries, where we may not be in need right now, but here’s what’s happening to us. I would be interested to learn from some charities what’s happening to us. Um, if Boston College were to send out a, um ah, a letter saying financially, we do an annual report, and, uh, but this is what’s happening at Boston College these days could be partly financial. It could be party, uh, in Roman issues. It could be partly added expenses, and it may not be a request for donations at this time. But to hear about what’s happening to the groups and the beneficiaries for whom you care is, I think, a new kind of communication that can be part of this Corona virus communications network and content

[00:30:26.09] spk_2:
and then in the in the medium to long term. Um, and we don’t know what that term is. Um, the history shows us that giving will recover.

[00:31:15.48] spk_6:
That is correct. Let’s think of churches right now. Um, it is kind of a paradigm they’re not holding. Service is, um, now a lot of churches get their revenue by the collection basket each Sunday. Others get the major portion of theirs Bye pledges in November, December, and so on. Those that get their revenue by pledges and have regular communication and maybe are doing service is on the Web, or so one are gonna be more in connection with their donors and those that are supporting it. But church is an interesting thing. See churches, an organization that the donor uses, the donor and the recipient to a church

[00:31:17.83] spk_9:
is the same person, the same

[00:31:43.58] spk_6:
family. Yeah, and so there’s a close identification there. But there’s also the fact that if you’re not using the service is at the present time, does that distance you more then from the organizations whom you contribute to but you don’t use? The service is from so we’re gonna have to see right or will people say their church can continue? I don’t mind it if we have to cut back a little bit as long as our pastor is paid or our pastors air paid.

[00:31:55.27] spk_7:
Um mmm. But

[00:33:37.24] spk_6:
maybe other things are a priority, But we’ll see. And this is the uncertainty that’s plaguing the stock market. It’s played in charity. It’s plaguing donors. It’s plaguing charities. It’s plaguing foundations. Everywhere you look, it’s playing in the medical world, this uncertainty and it would just be maybe a miracle. Maybe a great lesson, maybe just the way things play out. Or maybe all of those that if this were to have a shorter six week duration in the United States or across the world. Um, it’s section of the world having a six week duration of this in which it peaks and then true tales. Or there’s some biological discovery or scientific breakthrough. Um, this could change this whole crisis. And I think behind everybody’s anxiousness is also this maybe even on reasonable hope. That is also at play. And so there is some of this. We’re in crisis now, but maybe there won’t be a crisis in two months or six weeks. I will begin to see this curtail. Um, the stock market does not seem to be saying this is short life or this is turning the corner.

[00:33:51.34] spk_2:
Yeah, they didn’t seem to be. There’s not commentary suggesting that, but that’s that is reasonable. I know you’re you’re capturing it. You’re calling an unreasonable, unreasonable hope. It’s all the All the medical commentary is that we haven’t seen the worst. It’s gonna get much worse before it gets any better.

[00:34:47.99] spk_6:
Yeah, and, ah, But if there is a biological breakthrough with some of the medications that they talk about low key at the present time, even today again, they say there’s close to more than 1/2 a dozen that they’re starting to experiment with and mixtures and so on. There just might be something there, but we’re not. We’re not a piece. By finding out the young people are perhaps more vulnerable than we thought. Our at least. Ah, the carriers more more being carriers and them congregating and not stopping to congregate could be a factor. That’s just gonna leave this to continue longer. We don’t know people after 14 days are still contagious the way they were previously. All these things you’re gonna make all the difference in the world. But I’m not a medal.

[00:35:48.74] spk_2:
Right? So bring it, bring it back to nonprofits, you know? Yeah, there’s enormous uncertainty. Um, but we don’t want you to lose your head heads. And it’s not what individual one collective head. We don’t want you to lose your heads. We don’t want you to lose your humanity. Um, share the share. What’s happening with your funders, including institutional. Um, and, um, and, you know, be grounded in the confidence that your major donors will be there for you when they can, and that giving overall will recover in the in the mid to long term And I understand. You know, we don’t know what that what those terms are, but it will. So, you know, I think you go about your work in Ah, you know, in a in a thoughtful, uh, in a thoughtful way. Even even with, uh, you know, even with uncertainty

[00:36:36.53] spk_6:
now, there’s, uh, four areas that, while hindered and lessened by the drops in the stock market, remain good potential. Um, sources of giving. Let’s start with donor advised funds. Most people in their donor advised funds have, ah, their investments invested in various kinds of stock funds, mutual funds. But that doesn’t mean that they’ve been emptied out and you can give from them a second source that charities ought to be asking and reminding people about is the required minimum distributions

[00:36:48.47] spk_2:
All right, the IRA?

[00:37:31.36] spk_6:
Yeah, that’s right. And that money has to be taken out this year. No matter what’s happening in the stock market, you’ve got to take out what they designated from last January 1st right is the amount. And if you are above a certain amount of wealth, that $100,000 that you can contribute that limit from your r. M. D is not much to you and can really be activated for large numbers of people that are pretty wealthy or higher, affluent. And the charities can educate about that. They can also put on their websites a buttons that are now being developed to contribute from RMDS and to contribute from donor advised funds

[00:37:41.81] spk_2:
before we go 23 and four. Where can you name any place where you’re seeing these

[00:37:52.43] spk_6:
buttons? I can’t. All I know is that I’ve seen in the past, um, discussions about them and advertisements for them. I don’t think it would be hard for any charity to say. Um how do I,

[00:38:03.58] spk_7:
um uh,

[00:38:05.52] spk_6:
website button for a donor advice fund for gifts from donor advice when they’re gonna be advertising to make sure you know about it so they won’t be hard to find.

[00:38:15.72] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. What’s what’s number three?

[00:38:41.72] spk_6:
Number number three would be foundations that despite a decrease in their assets right now, I still have large pools of money. They can, since they can average over a period of years, their quote 5% requirement of donation they can, without worrying about keeping us up forever, contribute 7% this year and give less next year. If the crisis doesn’t continue, Our that becomes a possibility because of the ability to average out over three years. That 5% column me on that. Okay.

[00:39:24.22] spk_2:
Again? Yes. So keep in touch with your institutional funders again. This may not be that this is not the week or maybe even the month or the couple of several weeks to be asking, but keep in touch. You know, institutions are made of people. Institutional funders are made up of people, project officers, program officers. Um, let them hear from you. Okay, what’s your number? Four?

[00:40:12.21] spk_6:
Number four is something that is really connected in a way to all the others. Um, and that’s your endowment spending from your endowment. What else is it for? I mean, it can be, ah, security blanket, but it’s time for people. Two makes some may be emotional sacrifice not just a financial one, but an emotional one that says that I don’t have to keep accumulating in my endowment. I can spend some of it for a crisis, and that’s what it’s for. In part, it’s not just to provide long term security, but don’t forget without spending from your endowment. Your long term security maybe undercut by this short term crisis.

[00:40:41.41] spk_2:
That’s a very good point. Yeah, because I’m of course, that requires board action and thoughtful planning, but yeah, that’s a very good point. You’re You may undercut your long term by being, ah, to, um, too cautious in the immediate term.

[00:40:45.01] spk_6:
That’s right. We may

[00:40:55.01] spk_2:
not be the may not be a middle long term for you if you’re not cautious in the short term. And if you have the endowment wherewithal Ah, that maybe that’s that’s worth looking at through.

[00:41:06.31] spk_6:
And And, of course, you know that’s not a bad message to your donors that you’re willing to put quote your money on the line as well. Yeah,

[00:41:10.31] spk_2:
we’re not just asking for you, right, But we’re we’re dipping into our own long term savings

[00:41:13.12] spk_6:
yet instead of grown on, have made us a good institution. And we’re going to come out of this a great institution, you know,

[00:41:58.05] spk_2:
and, ah, A footnote for organizations that don’t have an endowment when we’re through this, uh, endowment growth or endowment creation is something for you to go to make a priority again. When we’re through this planned giving can be very good at that. However, you’re gonna do it if you don’t have that endowment. That forthe problem that you just mentioned. Paul, Um, it’s it’s something to make a priority for the next the next crisis.

[00:41:59.27] spk_6:
And you will say that’s why we’re raising, you know, And then people will understand it at this point,

[00:42:05.84] spk_2:
especially after this, right? All right, again, a footnote. I footnoted. I think that’s where it belongs. Uh, footnote not an end note. I prefer footnotes. Then I want to flip to the back of the book all the time. I don’t know. I have more footnotes over in there.

[00:44:10.99] spk_6:
One more footnote would be something you hinted at earlier. So we’ll move in from the back of the book to the page. And that is, um, treating your donors in the way that you want to treat your beneficiaries. Um, I always say this to universities. When I give talks, you have the students in front of you yet Boston College and Holy Cross at Harvard wherever and Emerson College. I just think a few of University of Detroit where I will and you want to treat this student, not only to information you want to treat them to personal formation. And when they graduate, you sometimes forget that you still want to be part of their personal happiness in formation, and all you want is their money. And so this is a time to remember what you ought to be doing all the time. And you were suggesting being in contact with your donors, you’re being in contact with your donors and maybe asking him how you do it. You’re part of us. I’m not just asking you this because you’ve given us money and we hope that you will continue to honor us with your gifts in the future. We’re sincerely interested in you, and we know that those that donate tow us are as anxious and worried about their families as we are about our own. And we are about the people we serve. How about a letter like that that is sincere to the very bottom of your heart? Because these are your constituents to your donors are part of your constituents.

[00:44:46.49] spk_2:
I love it, Paul. I’m thinking about a video on that exact subject around planned giving, which is what I do. Plan to giving consulting and, uh, using this as a time to do send exactly those kinds of messages with people you’re close enough to It could be a phone call. It could be a short hand written note. Um, you know, it doesn’t have to be. Ah, Doesn’t have to be an elaborate letter. Then that’d be a long letter. It never takes length. Month never trumps sincerity. And, uh, and genuine genuineness.

[00:44:52.59] spk_6:
Your donorsnames. Right? I get letters. That’s a deer. A p

[00:44:54.69] spk_2:
Okay. Yeah, Well, that’s that’s your database. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, that’s all. Another subject.

[00:44:59.85] spk_6:
But no, don’t screw that up when you’re writing a good letter.

[00:45:06.69] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s true. You’re right. Um, yes. Keeping in touch and heartfelt ways we’re thinking about you. We hope you’re well and safe. We we wish the same for your family. We just want you to know you’re important to

[00:45:16.75] spk_6:
us. Yeah, really are about

[00:45:19.62] spk_2:
sincerely. You know, that’s it. And that comes from Ah, gift officer doesn’t have to be a CEO board member letter and president.

[00:45:27.47] spk_6:
Consign it. I mean, maybe maybe the dean signs. Um no clothes in a picture of the dean right there. So you know, you make it personal and you don’t act it. I mean, in this day and age is easy. Send an email I’m and write it well, and you know,

[00:45:44.19] spk_3:
well, it can also it also come

[00:46:08.38] spk_2:
from a gift officer. That’s right. If you know if there’s a relationship that’s right. Relationship there. That’s right. Gift officers. Good. All right, Paul, we’re gonna wrap it up. Um, so any any parting thought? I mean, we had lots of good advice, sir. I’m not We’re not looking, toe, uh, take off all the advice that you provided. But what

[00:46:08.51] spk_3:
do you want? Do you

[00:46:09.09] spk_0:
want to

[00:46:09.28] spk_2:
leave people with Final

[00:46:57.49] spk_6:
Five? Don’t do too much mission drift. Um, uh, if you were doing arts funding, um, you might want to stick with that at this time. You know, um, both as a donor and as a foundation. Um uh, mission drift can take place at this time because there’s always, well, politically correct or exigencies that seem to be so important. You can’t who ate them, And I will just say, um uh, take care of your workers and avoid mission drift. So take care of your donors. Take care of your beneficiaries. Take care of yourselves. You know,

[00:47:03.62] spk_2:
and your employees as well.

[00:47:04.93] spk_6:
Yeah, that’s what I meant. Yeah, that’s real

[00:47:14.58] spk_2:
Pool service. Sh Professor emeritus at Boston College. Retired director there. Center on wealth and Philanthropy. You’ll find him at Paul Schervish s C h E R v I s H Paul. Thank you very much for sharing elder statesman. Thank you very much.

[00:47:23.70] spk_6:
My pleasure. Good job.

Nonprofit Radio for February 28, 2020: Get To The Next Level

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Sherry Quam Taylor: Get To The Next Level
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[00:00:13.74] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:00:21.63] spk_2:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host.

[00:00:23.19] spk_0:
We have a listener of the week Rusty Stall in Beacon, New

[00:01:47.40] spk_2:
York He went back and shared number show number 4 19 which is the encouragement show on Twitter. That one is from December 2018. Folks, you share, I shout out, Thank you very much, Rusty. Thanks for sharing the show. Glad you loved it. Congratulations on being this week’s listener of the week. Rusty Stall. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasized a phobia if you missed our fifth show in The Innovators. Siri’s get to the next level stop overlooking investment level, giving opportunities because you’re spending too much time on events and Facebook ads. Sherry Kwame Taylor walks through how to start your major giving program or how to find Tune and kick it up a notch. She’s a fundraising consultant and coach on Tony’s Take. Two planned giving relationship stories were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there. Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot C e o so great for to our sponsors really appreciate them so much.

[00:01:51.94] spk_0:
What a pleasure

[00:02:14.80] spk_2:
to welcome. First time to the show Cherie Kwame Taylor. She teaches non profit leaders had a pivot from small dollar donations to securing larger investment level donations so they can finally fund their missions. She does this nationally through her private coaching and her 90 day Let’s Grow Fundraising accelerator. She’s at kwame taylor dot com And at Sherry.

[00:02:19.22] spk_0:
Cute Taylor. Welcome. Es que t?

[00:02:22.49] spk_5:
Hey, Tony, how are you today?

[00:02:23.96] spk_0:
I’m doing very well. Where you calling

[00:02:25.46] spk_2:
in? From Sherry Kwan Teller.

[00:02:27.11] spk_5:
I am in Chicago

[00:02:28.49] spk_2:
land. Chicago. Your home. Okay. Your home base. You’re in Chicago. Okay. I

[00:02:31.87] spk_5:
am right in the middle of the country. Where were you? Where It’s cold.

[00:02:35.53] spk_0:
Yeah, Chicagoans always bring that

[00:02:37.09] spk_2:
up. I don’t like the first thing they say in the winter.

[00:02:40.07] spk_5:
We’re really tired of it

[00:02:41.42] spk_2:
here in the end of February. Got

[00:02:43.11] spk_5:
a couple months ago.

[00:02:52.83] spk_2:
I just asked somebody the difference Where was he calling from? Ah, the difference. Is there a difference between 10 below and 20 below? Do you know that? Does that marginal? 10 degrees to make no difference.

[00:02:58.61] spk_5:
Not not to me not to let

[00:03:00.20] spk_2:
it go

[00:03:00.47] spk_5:
under under zero. It’s kind all the same.

[00:03:03.17] spk_2:
It’s also okay. Okay.

[00:03:05.34] spk_0:
Um, so you have Ah, You have a pretty

[00:03:17.94] spk_2:
interesting practice. An interesting niche. Just why I wanted you to be one of our innovators. Um, you’re helping organizations get going with individual and then and Major Given,

[00:03:25.33] spk_5:
Right? Right. Yeah. I mean, just like you, tony. I’m really focused on those groups who are under that Usually $1 million mark And I love working with

[00:03:33.29] spk_2:
Okay. There was a lot of chatter on LinkedIn, so lots of

[00:03:36.66] spk_0:
lots of women. I think I was the only guy

[00:03:38.11] spk_2:
who commented in here on your link with you. Do you have anything do you work with? Do you work with Male of fundraisers? Ideally, you will. I

[00:03:46.91] spk_5:
think I made about 50 50%

[00:03:54.87] spk_2:
representative of population. Okay, um, I was just interesting. I said I noticed we’ll get a chance to shout some of them out of shortly if if they’re listening, in fact. So

[00:04:00.53] spk_0:
where do you see

[00:04:08.44] spk_2:
people sticking? Like What? What’s what’s what’s the typical, um, scenario for someone who needs your help? Where are they that you’re trying to get them past?

[00:04:16.13] spk_5:
Yeah, great, great question. So typically the people

[00:04:19.20] spk_2:
I’m working with

[00:05:51.62] spk_5:
are you know, I work with a lot of founders who have started non profits. And so, you know, they’re absolute subject matter issues, subject matter experts at their mission. And they started the non profit, and they’ve had a great level of success have gotten it to a certain point. But then there’s becomes the sticking point. It’s like, Oh, this is this is getting harder and harder to fund and what we have a waiting list for our service is and or gosh, I’d love to hire my first staff person, but I don’t know how to scale this financially and so I mean the favorite. I mean, really, probably the favorite part about my work is working with mission experts and people who have raise your hands and said, Yeah, that is a problem, and I’m going to, you know, found a non profit to try to solve that, but they necessarily they probably haven’t ever needed to know how to do major major level gift cultivation. So they’ve never been taught how to do it. And until oftentimes I find that, um, they’re funding, maybe has plateau because they’ve been kind of trying all the thing with some successful some not. But I really don’t know how to move into a larger gifts and so usually to kind of profiles I work with. And one would be what I just described. And then I also work with a lot of groups who are over that $1,000,000 mark. Um, but maybe they have a tremendous amount of either program revenue or revenue from the government. And they haven’t really strengthen their charitable giving,

[00:05:53.25] spk_2:
you

[00:05:55.98] spk_5:
know, they’re not bringing in a that could be bringing it.

[00:06:50.94] spk_2:
Yeah, or now a lot of people who ask me the question, How do you get to the next level had a week. How do we get to next level? Are wedded to events? You know, I whether it’s a gala or it’s a run or it’s a bunch of smaller events, you know, and my concern there is that they’re they’re fearful of and and also have not been trained in, as you said, individual individual giving, that they’re not comfortable sitting across a kitchen table or a desk, and hopefully it’s in their office because I like to control the setting. But we’ll get to the details that and ask people for whether it’s $500 or $50,000. Whatever level you at your at and you believe they should be at, they’re not comfortable doing that. So they host these events because they never have. They just ask for tickets on gates and auction items, and there’s never a face to face. Would you consider a gift of $50,000 for the for the mission that I just described and to get us to where I just said We need to be?

[00:08:22.09] spk_5:
You’re speaking my language, tony. I mean, I see so often, um, that organizations Oh, we have five annual events or, um, you know, we just you know, the board says you write more grant proposals or let’s just try. You continue to try all the things and that that concept you just nailed it that that step by step plan into oh So you’re telling me I should be carrying in my my world a top 30 portfolio of donors and that top 30 actually should be bringing in between 50 and 75% of my revenue. And you actually want me to go sit down one on one and present to them, or you don’t have a relationship with them and ask them for money. Oh, I like that Could never do that. Like I hate asking people for money, right? I get that all day long, and and that’s really where? Why I see people stock and frankly, why, in my opinion, you know, 77% of nonprofits are under a $1,000,000 because that that fear is kind of holding the back of What would I say when I get in that meeting, right? Like what? Is that? What questions are they gonna ask me? And so I think that being open to saying If you don’t know how to do that, it’s time to invest in yourself

[00:08:23.66] spk_2:
to

[00:08:37.90] spk_5:
learn how to do that. Because that’s a way to protect fundraising. Then, um, you know, the events or the appeals are giving Tuesday, which are all fine things. But if the majority of your funding really should be coming in from your top 30 donors, why are you allocating all of your time and energy and budget into smaller gifts?

[00:09:17.62] spk_2:
Okay, we’re gonna get to our we’re gonna take our first break. And after that, well, we’re gonna get into the steps and answer a lot of those questions that you just rhetorically asked wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner. You know which doom? Just on the show last week. You know him and he’s been on before Aunt and his firm, wegner-C.P.As, that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under their belt under their belt. They just were. Collectively, they just wear one belt. It’s a whole bunch of accountants, one belt wrapping, all of

[00:09:22.79] spk_3:
them on,

[00:09:32.52] spk_0:
and you get that expertise in the in their advice. Alright, wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the live love. Um, starting with that, I’m gonna start right here this time. You don’t do that. But New York, New York, we got multiple right here in New York,

[00:09:37.18] spk_2:
New York and moving out from the New York area got Falls Church,

[00:09:42.00] spk_0:
Virginia, Albuquerque, New Mexico. I love

[00:09:46.55] spk_2:
Albuquerque. I think I stayed at the The Albuquerque. The hotel Albuquerque. Is there such place? I love Al Albuquerque is a beautiful, beautiful city. Live love Out to Albuquerque and

[00:09:54.61] spk_0:
Tucson, Arizona, Fairfield, Connecticut, Tampa, Florida Barberton, Ohio. Um, yes. Live, love, live love

[00:10:34.74] spk_2:
to our domestic live listeners. Thank you for being with us and going abroad. Looks like Adana, Turkey, I hope. Adana, Turkey. I hope your family members are all safe attack in Syria just yesterday. Right? I hope your family is all safe. Tehran, Iran. Thank you for being with us. Checking in often. Tehran. You get to be regulars. Thank you. Appreciate that. Live love out there. Um, Belo Horizonte. Orders aren’t a Brazil. I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Obey God! Oh, for our Brazil listener and Seoul, South Korea, of course, Always checks in. So loyal

[00:10:44.54] spk_0:
annual Casio comes a ham Nida and also a Saudi Arabia. I think that’s a new one. Jetta Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Live love to each

[00:11:27.35] spk_2:
of our listeners abroad. Thank you for being with us on the podcast Pleasantries tour. Over 13,000 listeners in the time shift Pleasantries to you. I’m so glad that not profit radio fits into your life. Okay, let’s go back. Yes, Thio, get to the next level. All right, Sherry, you have you step by step. And if the host is any good at this show, which is always questionable, that seems after nine and 1/2 years. That’s still an open question. Then if he is, we’ll get to all the steps. So you want to start with the end in mind? Start with your endgame.

[00:11:44.24] spk_5:
Yeah, I d’oh! So you know, I might my challenge to people when I start working with them, as they say. Okay, so we’re gonna put a new cap on here or new lens on if you will. And that your investment level lens. And so if we’re gonna go prepare you to go start sitting down are forming relationships so you can eventually sit down with people

[00:11:51.25] spk_2:
and ask

[00:12:59.94] spk_5:
some first went for $25,000. We need to be We need to have a different type of lens on it. I if you saw me right now. I’d be doing this pivot with my body. But what I’m saying is I wanted to shift from Well, yeah, if we had the money. We do that. Yeah. If I had the money, I’d hire that person. If I had the money, I’d start that program. I want to shift that too. Here’s actually what our plans are. And here’s what we need this year. And so if you even think you know ahead to a solicitation and donor said so what do you need? And you hesitate and say, Well, you know what? We did this last year. We’d love to do this and we really hope we can vs. So glad you asked that we have an $800,000 need this year. And here’s what we’re going to dio and being Bing Bing, right? So it’s amazing That seems really simple, right? But that really that pivot from We gotta stop reacting to all the things and actually kind of push the pause button and put a proactive plan in place. Move from that scarcity to need model and move from trying to, you know, fundraise to everyone to really getting honed in on the top 30 donors.

[00:13:27.08] spk_2:
Okay, Now, at this step, we don’t We don’t have a particular donor in mind where we’re assessing our overall need for the year Or maybe maybe a two year plan or something like that. We’re just We’re focused on our our need. We’re not. We’re not focused on any individual donor yet. Or donors? Not yet. Because

[00:14:20.14] spk_5:
so often even budgets are sat. You know, sometimes how do you set your budget? Well, first we look at the money we have pledged. Well, hold on now. First, we need to look at what you need, right? And so what? We’re gonna talk about that step because budgeting is the key here. And so all of this tony is really rooted in me. My goal is to really help my clients learn how to leave their donors, every donor to giving their best guess and then helping them give that gift every year and getting them in a strong annual fund. And so I always say to people, if your donors best gift is $25 a month and that’s the best gift amazing, let’s provide the most amazing donor experience for that person. But if you’re if you’re, uh, donors, best gift is a $25,000 gift, and they’re only giving you five. We have some work to do, right? So if if all of our donors were giving their best guess, this would be a game changer

[00:14:24.44] spk_2:
How sorry. How are we gonna know what the best gift is for each of our top 30?

[00:15:00.24] spk_5:
Well, the first thing starts with relationship building and actually being comfortable talking about investment. And so oftentimes I find that we are so passionate about our missions way we know them obviously better than anybody. And so our conversations are a little bit like, Oh, here’s the crisis. Here’s the problem we’re solving And here’s what we d’oh on here some really great stories. And here’s some numbers of you know, this percentage of kids are doing this now and then It it kind of drops off like, Well, I think they’ll give because they really ask some great questions. And I know they have capacity, so we’ll see where that goes.

[00:15:37.21] spk_2:
Where where does a prospect research fit in? Do you? I’m a big advocate of gaining as much knowledge as I can about a person from the person themselves. And if you if you ask the right questions and if you’re a good listener, you’ll learn all about how many kids they have, what they what they do for a living or what they retired from where their vacation homes are. If they if they have them boats where they travel, whether they travel, you’ll learn a ton of things just from the person. But does thank you. Okay, but does does outside prospect research fit into your schema?

[00:16:28.74] spk_5:
Yeah, sometimes, like here’s the thing. What I find tony is I find that typically, and that kind of that model non profit where we started at the top of the hour. I actually find that many times they have donors who are sitting right around them, and a lot of times it’s they aren’t giving their best gift because A. They haven’t really known what the organization needed, because either they didn’t know how to share that, where they don’t know what they need or B they’ve never been asked, and so totally groovy. Oh, this is the slow game when we’re starting, when we’re getting to know our donors, why they’re giving why they value giving tow us, knowing every single thing and just having a relationship with him, right?

[00:16:32.37] spk_2:
Yeah, because Because the first meeting is not the ask.

[00:16:34.61] spk_5:
No, no,

[00:16:36.31] spk_2:
make that. Let’s make that explicit. Yeah,

[00:16:47.44] spk_5:
Yeah, I literally just had a client or a board member of a client. Say so. You mean to tell me we’re not asking in this meeting? I think it’s the first meeting you didn’t propose to your spouse on the first date,

[00:16:50.75] spk_2:
right? Good analogy. Yeah.

[00:17:07.88] spk_5:
Yeah. So, um, so it’s a slow game, But I would also say there’s just Yes, of course. I want, you know, people, you know, doing prospect research and, you know, running reports and doing due diligence. But I would also say Don’t forget that we can go talk to them

[00:17:09.30] spk_2:
and we can

[00:17:26.72] spk_5:
go for a relationship with them and share what we need, because they time and time again, I have clients moved five figure gifts to six figure gifts. I’ve sat in these solicitations and heard their donors say I didn’t know you needed that. What have you never asked? I mean, so great. But also Oh, my goodness.

[00:17:43.75] spk_2:
Subsumed in something you just said is Don’t let the lack of information keep you from that solicitation that that asked. You know, if you feel like I don’t know quite enough, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know what you know. You’re never gonna know everything. So you get a much as you can have those preliminary meetings. Maybe somebody on the board knows the person. Or maybe not. But, you know, but don’t let the ah lack of some some little bit. I never found out where they have Children or not, or whether how old their Children are. Don’t let that stop you from going ahead with your ask

[00:18:06.98] spk_5:
your right.

[00:18:07.60] spk_2:
Otherwise, you’ll you’ll spin

[00:18:12.79] spk_5:
your spin. Until this concept, Like what you said, Um, I want you sitting down one on one with your top 30 donors,

[00:18:17.17] spk_2:
but

[00:18:35.66] spk_5:
more than that and asking them. And every time I speak, I always have somebody raise your hand and say, Can I e mail him, you know, like not rarely, right or the other thing is yet I’ll say, Do you Do you do one on one ass? Yeah, we do. We have We’ve got a couple of in string here and we ask that our event. That’s not what I’m talking about. Totally different. Totally different angle here.

[00:18:39.84] spk_2:
Right? Thank you. Okay. And you also mentioned I don’t put a put an exclamation after it. Let’s get out of the scarcity mentality. You said that you said it explicitly. I’m I’m reiterating what you already said. We got it. We got to get out of this. I can’t afford that. I can’t afford the first employee. Uh, that’s part of your That’s part of where

[00:18:59.32] spk_0:
you want to be. I want to hire our first employee.

[00:19:01.01] spk_2:
This? What are we already have a staff of four. I want to hire our first director of development this year. And that’s gonna be ah, $75,000 position. And when I add benefits, it’s gonna

[00:19:10.18] spk_0:
be $100,000 position. That’s what we need.

[00:19:15.39] spk_2:
You know? It’s okay if you saw me. You said earlier if we saw you, you’d be pivoting around. You saw me. I’d be flailing my arms around

[00:19:20.35] spk_5:
sitting up in your care.

[00:19:23.74] spk_2:
Oh, yeah, I’m propped up my aunt. My arms are flailing.

[00:20:00.40] spk_5:
Your leave led me right into step to hear track each other. Um, so I mean, step like, so it’s really moving into. Okay. So, Cherie, you’re telling me I need to go sit down with these people? I need thio eventually. When I feel like the time is right. You want me to ask them for money and sit down and do that? So, you know, often the next step is So what am I saying to them, Right? And so in my world, I always say, there’s there’s three things that really have to be clear in a donor’s mind before they’re going to give you that investment level gift. So obviously one of those being planned, like, what are you doing?

[00:20:02.51] spk_2:
Yeah, we just talked about that. All right? Yeah. And then,

[00:20:14.09] spk_5:
uh, and also, like, I’ll send your strategic plan and whether you have the 40 page binder on the shelf or it’s in a napkin sketch, You know, your donors have to know what your plans are. What are you doing this year so that you can do this next year? Because in five years were kind of thinking this right. Like,

[00:20:21.99] spk_2:
you

[00:21:02.02] spk_5:
have to be talking about your plan in that annual rhythm to get your donors in that annual fund mentality. Right? So you gotta know your plan. You gotta be able to talk like that. So that’s kind of the planning of it, obviously. I mean, we don’t have to spend some time on this, but your programs, what do you do? And I think probably the biggest hang up I see in the Syria would be donors not totally understanding what you do. It kinda have an idea. And then oftentimes, uh, you know, the confusion comes with Well, we do this and this and this and this and this, and we list the activities that we d’oh. We don’t really talk about them in more of an outcome manner or in a in that programmatic structure that really helps him understand how holistically our programs fit together to actually be solving.

[00:21:21.04] spk_2:
And Sherry, if if this is an existing donor, let’s say and you’re trying to get them to the next level, you know, look at what they’ve been funding in the past because that’s if if they have a specific program, maybe it’s unrestricted. In which case we’re grateful for, of course, for general support too. But if there is something that they’ve designated they’re giving to in the past. Uh, focus on that. You know that. Focus on that part of your your plan and your need You need

[00:21:45.93] spk_5:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so it’s always a balance of I want to feed the donor’s interest, right? Like, oh, they’re really, really excited about our scholarship program. Okay, great. We want to know that. But our job also is a leader is to say, OK, how wonderful. You know, we’re investing $300,000 in our scholarship program this year. Our organization has an $800,000 need, right? Like I want them to know the whole need

[00:22:07.03] spk_2:
of organization, but

[00:23:34.04] spk_5:
they’re super passionate about a program, you know, that’s what we’re gonna feed. Right? Um, So there’s there’s the donors who Really? Yeah, they understand. We do. They volunteer for us. They’re deep in this with us. They’re really stakeholders. Um, you know, I have some while those funny stories of donors who were giving to organizations who asked off the wall questions like, How do you guys were doing this, right? So there’s some clarity that needs to happen. There is, um, it might be that we’re speaking in acronyms are, you know, kind of speaking in our jargon because we’re so intimate with our industry. But how can we How can we talk about what we do in a way that really helps the donor see the impact that a gift could have on the lives that were serving? Um, Okay, So I said three things have to be clear so that there obviously their plans in the programs and the 3rd 1 which is maybe my favorite thing to talk about tony is the financial need. What do you need financially? And so every single time I talked to, uh, somebody new, I always say, I got to be honest. It’s a little bit of a test. Um, I say so. So what? What? Your what? Your financial need this year, I’m kind of asking, what’s your budget? And 9.5 times out of 10 I get. Well, last year we did about 6 80 And so we I mean, we hope we could do that. I don’t know, maybe 7 20 You know, in essence, a little our need is a little bit more than last year

[00:23:38.91] spk_2:
right there, but they’re Basically, they’re constraining it based on what they did last year versus what would be what? What would get the organization again to the next level. Or, you know what, really what I really need to do or want, want or need to do not just constrained and tied to what they did last year,

[00:23:59.18] spk_5:
right? Right. So I kind of called.

[00:24:00.68] spk_2:
It’s like an anchor dragging you down what you did last year. What

[00:24:04.09] spk_0:
do you want to do this year? What do you need to do this year?

[00:24:08.15] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah. You know, you’re gonna come to meetings with me, tony. So I call that

[00:24:11.75] spk_2:
I don’t think you can afford me. I’m sorry.

[00:24:16.23] spk_5:
Okay. Never mind that. I kind of call that like, Okay, so that’s your more of your squeak by budget. Look, you’ve got to get that number,

[00:24:22.02] spk_2:
But

[00:24:33.91] spk_5:
then, you know, when I dig a little bit, I’ll say OK, so So you need, you know, a 20 in my example. I guess so. What’s not in that number, you know, And when I start digging a little bit, it always happens. Okay. So, um, are you are you paid by the organization? Well, you know I was approved to take the 70

[00:24:40.71] spk_2:
$1000 salary, but

[00:24:41.81] spk_5:
I’ve only been taking a 20

[00:24:42.92] spk_2:
five or

[00:25:06.64] spk_5:
I we have a waiting list, but we don’t have enough er staff or, um, you know, do you have a reserve fund? Well, no. You know where it ebbs and flows, you know? Are you investing in technology? Are you? You know anything? So my point of this is you have got to create a riel. Need space budget to grow.

[00:25:11.44] spk_2:
No,

[00:25:12.12] spk_5:
this cannot desist. Moving from reactive to proactive.

[00:25:15.45] spk_2:
This is

[00:25:20.28] spk_5:
the biggest thing. If there’s a takeaway from anybody today, it’s budgeting. And sometimes I laugh. I don’t know. I talk about budgeting all day long, and I don’t know how I how this came to be, but your budget is your plan for the year.

[00:25:28.87] spk_2:
Andi. So, Daddy, and put

[00:25:30.90] spk_5:
those things in.

[00:25:32.10] spk_2:
Yes, what? Your deeds are what you what you aspire to. And don’t be anchored by what you did

[00:25:36.53] spk_0:
last year

[00:25:37.07] spk_2:
or the year before.

[00:25:38.10] spk_0:
That’s dragging you down. That’s that’s, you know, 10% 15

[00:25:53.97] spk_2:
percent growth, thinking you’ll reach your reach a $1,000,000 in revenue in 15 years. That wave incrementally 10% of 10% growth from year to year of your starting its 6 80 or something. What? How

[00:25:54.94] spk_0:
did you know? Think big.

[00:25:57.47] spk_2:
But in terms of staff and programs and, um, and needs, you know, how

[00:26:03.42] spk_0:
do you get where do you want to be?

[00:26:30.60] spk_5:
And I think this is why this is hard. But this is, like, such a sticking point. This is what I’ve kind of come toe watch with my clients because it’s actually like a really fun and clarifying exercise. Thio, get them to kind of watch them pivot into. I could do that. Yeah, well, let’s put it all in and see what the number is. I’m not talking crazy. I’m not telling you to jump from 600 K to 1.2. But what I’m saying is, if you do not say you know what, You’re right. We have even $850,000 need this year.

[00:26:36.14] spk_2:
Like,

[00:26:43.71] spk_5:
if you do not do that, how will you put a development plan in place to actually hit that? Because if you’re putting a development plan in place to,

[00:26:45.68] spk_2:
you know,

[00:26:51.69] spk_5:
way back down toe, maybe hit the 6 80 you will never hit it. And so I’m a big believer in Okay, fine. We have an $850,000 need. I’m looking around the table, right. I want that to roll off everybody’s tongue. And now we’re gonna put a plan in place on how we’re gonna bring that in

[00:27:03.20] spk_2:
because,

[00:27:12.70] spk_5:
you know, oftentimes way find we’re spending tons of time kind of on the expense side of our budget, right? Just every nook and cranny of every expense. But then we aren’t spending the same amount of time saying, OK, so how

[00:27:19.32] spk_0:
are we

[00:27:56.69] spk_5:
gonna bring in the 8 50 and let’s go back to where we started? It’s 50 to 75% of our revenue should come in from our top three donors. We sure as heck should start there. Right? And so I’m a really big believer in using your budget month to month of another little tip. So many people I work with, they haven’t looked at their budget month to month. Here’s what I’m bringing in this month. Here’s what we’re spending this month. It’s more looked at often as more of an annual basis. How do you know what to do in June if you need to bring 50 k n and you gonna spend 47 K. Okay. Well, how do we know what to do then? If we aren’t looking at it month by month?

[00:28:02.64] spk_3:
Okay, um,

[00:28:03.28] spk_5:
budgeting is huge in this huge, huge, huge.

[00:28:12.18] spk_2:
All right, we’re gonna take our our second break. Um, And since you’re, uh, fundraising professional, you’re gonna appreciate time versus goal. We’re halfway through the show, and we’ve only done two of your seven steps, so

[00:28:20.93] spk_5:
they get faster.

[00:28:21.95] spk_2:
Okay? Okay. I told you the host is lackluster at best. On a good day. Lackluster. That

[00:28:28.54] spk_5:
was my longest

[00:29:06.64] spk_2:
time versus goal. All right, take this break. Cookie Mountain Software, Their accounting product, Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need as a non profit and the exemplary support that understands how you work. You’ve heard me talk about that For the testimonials about the support. They have a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two plan giving relationship stories. In my previous video, I talked about playing, giving relationship stories, and

[00:29:06.80] spk_0:
I left out the relationships. How do you talk about relationship

[00:29:09.12] spk_2:
if you don’t include the people I talked about, how they get started and the value of these plan giving long term relationships to your organization. And

[00:29:16.68] spk_0:
then I didn’t tell any relationship stories. How could you see Lackluster at on a good

[00:30:05.02] spk_2:
day? So, uh, plenty of relationships. Stories has four lovely stories, and there’s scores of them that I’m sure I could come up with if I put my mind to it. But these four or top of mind, um, and I tell some very touching stories about the plan giving relationships that the part of planned giving that I love the most those relationships. So those stories are on the video at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is Tony’s Take two. Now back to get to the next level with Sherry Kwan Taylor. She’s a private coach and runs a 90 day fundraising accelerator. Our Sherri, we’re getting to the donors now. We’re gonna start identifying our top 30 donors. We are suppose we’re a small organization. Can we Can we do this with 10 or 15 top donors. Absolutely. Okay,

[00:32:48.54] spk_5:
absolutely. Usually, people are like, Hey, Cheri, I love that you’re talking about top 30 donors, but I’ve got a solid nine, you know, it’s okay. It’s okay. We’re gonna start with nine, and then we’re gonna find the other ones, right? So I would say, like moving into this yet. Let’s talk. Let’s talk about our donors here. So, you know, we have those three things were our plans, our programs, our need. So now, especially with our top 30 now, we need to serve our donors. We need to make sure there’s clarity in those areas and tie it to why they would get why they value giving to the organization. And so my what I want people to hear today is you actually have way more control of the timing of the gift and the size of the gift than you think. And here’s what I mean, but I mean is you have got to craft and create great donor experiences for your top 30 donors, and I’m talking as far as saying okay, so let’s use our example. I always use Tom. And so, um, you know Tom and sue. They always male in a check of Thanksgiving. Yeah, I don’t know. They just always male in that $10,000 check. They must have a family meeting and mail it in. So I say, Well, hold on a second. Uh, we’ve done a little research on Tom and Sue, and they are giving $25,000 to the theater down the road, right? And so how do we How do we It’s It’s January right now. What do we need to dio? But two in January and November to raise their gifts, right? And so I am a believer, and we need to plan that out, and we’re gonna be flexible about it, too. But my goal would be great. So I actually want to get in front of that gift this year. And I want to make sure that I have done everything in my power to lead them to the point where we’re sitting down in October. And I’m having a really healthy, wonderful investment level discussion with them before they just mail in that gift of Thanksgiving, right? And so I want us looking at each one of our 30 donor relations donors and charting out what those steps are going to be and managing those. Because again, this could be 75% of your revenue. And so it is a lot of work. You will never hear the words come out of my mouth. Fundraising is easy because it is discipline. And it is someone waking up every morning and saying, Okay, I gotta push this bar here. I gotta push this here. I gotta move this over here and move this. It takes a lot of time. Um, so this But this is this is how you will grow. This is how you will move into investment level, gets by serving your donors in such an intimate way.

[00:32:57.24] spk_2:
Now, this will also work with Tom and Sam Couples, right?

[00:33:00.73] spk_5:
Yes, of course.

[00:33:01.96] spk_2:
Or Terry and Sue. Okay. We’ll work with it with anybody. Not strictly a hetero plan.

[00:33:07.31] spk_5:
Thank you. Thank

[00:33:08.20] spk_2:
you for pointing that out.

[00:33:19.96] spk_5:
And I’d also say, you know, sometimes people Oh, do you Do you also work with foundations or do you work with corporations or sponsorships? Um I mean, I focus on individual giving, but I would I’d say to you is I will tell you. He’s obviously these warm, wonderful relationship building experiences. It trickles down to every relationship that you should be having with a corporation who’s sponsoring something or, ah, family foundation. And so I’ve actually seen when people have gone through my program and really try to grow their individual giving that it actually has greatly impacted how how they’re approaching their events and how they’re approaching foundations and corporations. Because, um, it’s really all about creating and serving our donors in that way. So I can I’m happy to talk to some of those steps if you if you would like to dig in deeper.

[00:34:47.69] spk_2:
Yeah, well, let’s stick with our individuals of the individual donor side. So, you know, I should have also reminded our live listeners that if you want to join the conversation, uh, hit us up on Twitter, use the hashtag non profit radio hashtag non profit radio on Twitter. If you want to ask you a question or it seemed like there might be ah ah particularly motivated live listener crowd today. So if you want to join in, use that hashtag non profit radio on Twitter, please. That’s that’s what we’re checking and we’re watching it in the studio. So basically, you’re saying you need a cultivation and solicitation plan for each of your top donors. However many there are. You’re saying from between January and October, how are we going to get this couple, uh, in a face to face so that we can explain our need and hopefully raise their race? What is typically they’re you know, they’re November gift. We need a player. We need. We gotta be strategic. We need a plan for each of our donors.

[00:35:20.69] spk_5:
We need a plan and we have to allocate back to that. And we have to allocate your time towards that. It can’t just be the planet has to be really pivoting kind of thing. I’m gonna stop doing that one campaign that yields $4200 every year on Facebook because, frankly, that’s one donor that’s a $5000 donor. So again, don’t hear me say, don’t do Facebook campaigns. I want to do them, but not at the risk that you haven’t started or launched her your individual gift program.

[00:36:21.30] spk_2:
Yeah. Look, look carefully. Look carefully at events that maybe you’re hosting do eyes there. Is there a lackluster event that on this world lackluster today. But good work, eyes. They’re a lackluster event. You know, maybe maybe you don’t even like doing it. But there’s a board member or that loves this event. You know, you need to get around that you need Thio stopped with these activities that are dragging you down and are not as productive show. You’re absolutely right. A 42 100 event. That’s 1 $5000 donor. And in a year, it might be a year after that. It might be a 75 $110,000 donor, and your event isn’t going to scale that way, But individuals will so look strategically at all the things you’re doing. Not just the events, but I keep harping on those that if there is, there’s something unproductive. Put it into this individual giving plan. Yes. Oh, absolutely. But you gotta have cultivation station planned strategy for each donor, and then you gotta work it. You gotta work it. I gotta devote resources to it.

[00:37:02.23] spk_5:
Yeah, and I can I tell you the most important thing on this cultivation plan. Um, let’s say we’ve asked. You didn’t Awesome. High five. They made a decision. They said Yes. Amazing. Okay, so, you know, you heard me say, at the top of the hour, I want them giving their best gift. And I want them giving that gift every year. So after the gift, what do we D’oh! Right. I’m talking thinking my number one rule in thanking is exceed expectations. If that donor says to you, Sure. You didn’t need to do that. That was perfect,

[00:37:05.43] spk_2:
because

[00:38:10.24] spk_5:
I didn’t need to do that. How do we get our donors in an annual fund mentality? Bye. Thank you. Them? How do we get them back in the path, right? If you’re kind of thinking of this line of like, I’m gonna drive them down this line every year. I got to get him way back to the front of line and drive him down again. It’s done through thanking. And so a little tipple gives people who are listening. Oftentimes, it could be a simple of this because all of my clients say Okay, they gave, but like, I don’t know, it’s six months pass, and I don’t know what my excuses to go talk to him again, Right? Well, say, here’s what you should have done. Or here’s what you could do when they give a guest. You know, I’ll thank them. I’ll have it toned Exactly what they value have it tone to our relationship we have with them. We know what they’re interested in. And then there’s this line. I’ll put it the end. And I’ll say, Hey, um, I’m not hey, but, uh, I make it. I make it a policy to report back to people in in 90 days on just the impact that your gift is having on the lives of those we serve all be in touch. What did I just do? I just told him I was calling him in 90 days. Then I’m gonna stop in and tell him what your gift is doing. And I just got back on the path for next year.

[00:38:16.22] spk_2:
That’s excellent.

[00:38:29.55] spk_5:
Yeah, when I say you have more control of the size of the timing, you have more control. You know, when you’re really leading the donor. So hold that. Hold that. Hold that control. Like you know, I love that question. Tony, I’m gonna research that and I will circle back with you next month when I felt when I figure that out or no one’s ever asked me that. But I’m certainly gonna look that up. I’ll shoot. You knew that Back on what I find. Tell him what you’re gonna do next. Hold the control. A huge part of leading your donors through great experiences in getting them in that annual rhythm that we meet all of our donors giving it.

[00:38:52.78] spk_2:
I’m not satisfied with just one thanking tip. I need another tip from Sherri Quinn Taylor. So what’s another insider pro tip for for thanking and exceeding expectations

[00:39:53.71] spk_5:
yet So sometimes sometimes I’ll say things like, um, you know, our question I get often is, you know, what about the donor who says they’re too busy to meet with me? This is I get this all the time. Um, here’s what’s been working for my clients, you know that. Let’s kind of play this out. It’s that, you know, kind of business person. CFO, Super busy. Doesn’t have enough time running around dragon, but we want to get in front of him, right? So I’ll try to mix it up a little bit. I’ll try to do things like, Hey, Chris, um, I wanted just to stop it and share with you and just share something with you on about what your gift is doing. I’m so busy. You know what? Totally cool. I’m gonna be near your office. Do you come in early? Great. Why don’t I just buy you a cup of coffee in the corner? I’ll take 20 minutes of your time before your work day, and we’ll just chap priestly and then keep it to 20 minutes.

[00:39:55.57] spk_2:
Oh,

[00:40:19.11] spk_5:
I do the same thing at lunch. Do you take a quick lunch hour? I’m happy to be on your door stop. And just to share this with you. Because here’s the thing. I think they’re avoiding us sometimes because it’s like, Oh, my goodness, it’s going to be an hour and 1/2 lunch and I’m the busiest person on the planet. And what are they? Are they gonna ask me again? Sometimes I’ll say even say to them Hey, not asking you for a thing, but it’s really important for us to share with you what your gift is doing. So make it easy for the donor to have a meeting with you. Tell him it’s 20 minutes and gets what stick to it.

[00:40:42.02] spk_2:
Sure, timer. Thank you. Thank you. We need to keep. We need to keep moving. My heart is racing time against goal. So, uh, Okay, we’ve got our 30. We’ve got our however many it is. We’ve got our cultivation. So station plan. Let’s do this one briefly before the next break, which is about a man and 1/2. What do we need to have in hand for a solicitation?

[00:41:58.89] spk_5:
So here’s my biggest tip. Oftentimes when we don’t know how to pivot into a financial conversations were talking mission. We’re talking story all heart. I will often say, Hey, get a really casual, but I I used I call it a conversation prompt. Put it on your iPad. Just a few exhibit nothing with 100 words on it. A few exhibits that actually prompts you to start moving into a few slides that talk about how you’re growing, show how you’re funded, show your program and been fundraising percentage. Because if you have something really easy breezy that you’re just using in a conversation that is such a nice tool used to pivot into what I will call investment level conversations because I find that that like? Okay, we’re talking about this wonderful story about, you know, this family who was homeless, and now they’re not how I pivot into a money conversation. So sometimes you need tools on hand that actually are just a helper and kind of a crutch to you in the conversation that move you into an investment. Little conversation. So when the time’s right, you can say, Could I share with you how we’re planning to grow this year? I love your feedback on this. And to be able to talk a little

[00:42:04.86] spk_2:
bit through these tools are a couple. So these tools are a couple of slides that lead to the conversation. And what out? What else you got? You gotta be gotta be brief.

[00:42:11.80] spk_5:
Yeah. Leave it breezy and on an iPad. Nothing. Nothing like this is not a presentation. It’s a

[00:42:16.57] spk_2:
conversation. I’d

[00:42:18.08] spk_5:
like to use a gift chart. I have all my clients using give charge, and it’s how they’re raising their four figures to five figures and five figures. Six.

[00:42:30.30] spk_2:
This is the gift pyramid that is ubiquitous. Is that what you mean about your chart? Okay. All right. So what? The bottom it says we have our $50 gift and we need 1000 of those or whatever. And then we have our 50 to $250 gifts and we need 700 of those that set or however your top

[00:42:44.70] spk_5:
30 focused on

[00:43:44.99] spk_2:
your top 30 gift. Oh, thank Top 30 gift chart. Okay, I gotta take this last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news that you need to comment on so that you stay relevant in your work you want to. You want to be heard from journalists. You gotta build a relationship. What is sharing wegner, Sherry and I talking about relationships? You build them when you don’t need them, so that when the breaking news happens and you want to comment, it’s more likely than not that they’ll pick up the phone when it’s you. Turn two can help you build those journalists relationships. They’re a turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for get to the next level. I say that, but I’m hesitant, but I don’t want shared commonality thinking we got 25 more minutes, so I’m I’m watching the clock for you.

[00:43:47.70] spk_5:
Thank you.

[00:43:49.84] spk_3:
It’s my job.

[00:43:51.40] spk_5:
Quickly, Quick, quick.

[00:43:52.27] spk_2:
All right. So, um, what’s next? After that, we know what we’ve got. We’re prepared for Russell Station. We’ve got our gift chart we’ve got are a couple of slides. Not a lot. What’s next?

[00:45:29.49] spk_5:
Yes. So now I wanna I wanna push back or I want to go back to this concept, which is this Step five. Because what happens if you are the person who Okay, well, I have nine, but I gotta find the rest of them, right. So in addition to what we just talked about, the next step is, But hold on. I need to find 10 times as many donors, right? I need to be moving into more strategic conversations. So my my my step here would be, Let’s also have a dual strategy running on the side where, um we are also sharing our plans, our programs in our need, with those in the community who are our networkers. There are most connected individuals. And so I cannot if you’re a person who’s trying to level up and trying to really move into mid major level gift activities. I cannot stress enough how much of an educator you need to be to anybody who will listen to you, right. And so sometimes when, um, I’ll say. But I don’t I don’t know anybody who who does who gives major guests. Let’s say that’s fine. Who is the most connected person in the community? You know, who is that person you call when your friend needs a job? That’s why I want you to go talk to, and then they a first they’re gonna be like, Oh, my cash, because this is amazing. I didn’t know you guys were 850. Does our organization. That’s fantastic, eh? You’ve raised their sights, right? So maybe they will become a donor. Right? But then the next step is No. Hey, hey, Chris. I know. I’m sure this was today. Who are two people in your world who would really be interested what I share with you today and who might have the ability to invest at the level that I’ve shared with you, Right? So I want to make sure you are running a solid donor pipeline strategy right along the prospect strategy.

[00:45:48.51] spk_2:
What’s the board’s role. What’s the board’s role in helping build the pipeline?

[00:46:03.83] spk_5:
That’s my next step here, so but I’ll go right into it here, tony. So this is where the board is. This is where it’s key for the board, right? And so I have some specific board advice. But, um, often times it’s a board member who says, Oh, I don’t know. Maybe I don’t have any large donors in my network. I don’t say I don’t believe that Everybody does. We just may not know it. It’s also not a big deal. I just need to talk to your connectors. Then I’m

[00:46:17.62] spk_2:
not gonna

[00:47:40.53] spk_5:
ask them for money. So great. So let’s talk about who are the people in your world who are those movers and shakers and know everybody in the community. And so my my approach with the board and I’m gonna give some advice here, too. A lot of people will come to me in there, excuse for why they are the reason I should excuse. A reason for why they haven’t grown is well. My board doesn’t know they’re supposed to fundraise or I don’t have the right board members on on hand and hear me say I want your board to be engaged and thoughtful and you know, in the pocket with you and helping you do all of this fundraising. Ay dio and I work with that work with toward that all day long. But I’d also say to the executive director or development director who’s listening, Don’t wait on your board. Don’t sit back and you’re I don’t know. I don’t have any major guest because I’m waiting for my board to bring names to the table. You know, you still have to be carrying a great amount of the load, and I wish it weren’t that way. But it’s the truth. And so my biggest device and getting the board engaged, you know, 20. We talked about creating great donor experiences. If you have a board who’s kind of like I don’t I don’t I don’t know how I would introduce you. I don’t know what this looks like. You know, many board members, most most board members, I have never had to sit down and ask somebody for $25,000. They don’t know how to do it,

[00:47:41.75] spk_2:
right? So what do we do?

[00:48:28.47] spk_5:
So model it. I would say, I want I want you soliciting each one of your board members every year. And I want you to create a donor experience cultivation plan for each board member and show them how it’s done. Serve each one of your board members so they can see it. Because when you do this, it will be amazing. Still safe. Oh, well, okay, so that’s like I didn’t I didn’t know that’s what you were going to. D’oh! And so they’re not introducing you to their network because they’re afraid you’re gonna walk in and it’s gonna be a stick up high. Give me $10,000 so you have to model it to them. And when they see that, you actually served that you’ve created this warm and wonderful donor experience. And actually, the solicitation wasn’t that painful and scary all the sudden It’s like, Oh, okay, well, that actually is really well done. You know, maybe I can introduce you to my network, So model it for them because they don’t know how to do it either.

[00:48:42.67] spk_2:
Yeah, they don’t know what it is you’re asking. They just have an image. Imagine somebody

[00:48:43.95] spk_5:
had scary things happened before they don’t want those happen again,

[00:48:46.39] spk_2:
right? Some of your top prospects, maybe board members.

[00:48:49.27] spk_5:
Yes,

[00:48:50.17] spk_2:
of course. I mean, that’s not that’s not presume that they’re mutually exclusive. All right, all right. You wanna make explicit? Okay?

[00:48:57.21] spk_5:
Absolutely. And we want we want to be getting their their best.

[00:49:01.32] spk_2:
I like your idea of if you don’t know anybody who’s ah, potential major donor, who’s who with connectors that you know. Who do you go to when you want to get your child an internship? You know, let’s introduce me, those people, because they’re the They’re the influencers in the community. Okay, what’s next?

[00:49:19.44] spk_5:
Yeah, so here we were. Really? I’m We’re at the left. Step here.

[00:49:23.08] spk_2:
Solicitation. Solicitation.

[00:49:41.06] spk_5:
Here’s Here’s the big thing. So So yeah. So we’re soliciting. I know. I want us moving into solicitations. Um, here’s the thing. Using a gift chart really does help, you know, because I want us to be able to invite them into investing, And we might say things like, You know, I don’t know if you can, but I loved it. Invite you to be one of our top three donors are our top 10 donors.

[00:49:49.32] spk_0:
What do you do I? I got

[00:49:50.27] spk_2:
a I got a question out of the box of that. You’re pointing to the gift chart, and you’re pointing up near the top are at the top, and they say, I’m I’m down here.

[00:50:52.92] spk_5:
That’s okay. That’s okay. So let’s pretend it’s somebody who we have No clue, but we actually don’t know they’re given capacity, so we might be having a very exploratory conversations. You know, Chris, I don’t I don’t know if you can, but I’d love to invite you to be one of our top 30 donors, you know, until the bottom box might be five k. And then my biggest advice, tony, is be quiet. Let them talk, right? Like we don’t have to fill the silence. They’re going to say something like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Certainly could do that. Yeah, well, let me let me talk to my spouse, and we certainly could do that. Or if they say I don’t I don’t know if I’m gonna be the top 30. You know, I certainly could, you know, maybe think about it, but that would be that would be one of our largest guests. That is wonderful information to know and we’re not asking. We’re offering way. Don’t know if they can, but we’d love to invite them to be. They are a donor who’s been giving maybe every year, every year. 555

[00:50:54.70] spk_2:
You

[00:51:21.42] spk_5:
know, I may have a line at that Top 10 and maybe the top 10 is a 75 $100 gift. And I’ll say you’ve been giving so faithfully like we’re so thankful. All these things. No, I don’t know if you can, but would you would you think about being a top 10 donor, Right? So we’ve just asked them to up their gift until my point of all of this is, you can move into a conversation about the gift. No, it doesn’t. It’s not a scary thing.

[00:51:22.36] spk_2:
And it’s

[00:51:22.79] spk_5:
okay if they say it

[00:51:24.08] spk_2:
shouldn’t be.

[00:51:24.56] spk_5:
That could do that yet,

[00:51:52.00] spk_2:
right? Don’t be afraid to talk about the talk about the gift, right? That’s what that’s work. That’s why we’re there, just they say x and you say, Oh, thank you so much. No, no, that, you know, I say six knows and you’re halfway to a Yes. So, you know, keep the conversation going. No, I couldn’t possibly Well, uh, there’s the future, and there’s the need. And, you know, don’t don’t. This is what I could do. Okay. Thank you. You sold yourself out.

[00:51:55.96] spk_5:
Yeah, totally. And here’s one, and I’m watching the clock here to tony. But, like, here’s one that’ll give people. You know, sometimes you’re

[00:52:02.94] spk_2:
so time conscious, Sherry. Okay. Don’t. She’s content. Geez,

[00:52:06.76] spk_5:
now I’m watching

[00:52:08.30] spk_2:
you going, listeners,

[00:52:34.53] spk_5:
you’re asking. I got to get this kid knows I’m like, I gotta say this, Um, if you just asked and they’re not ready to give you a yes or no. Here’s my remember I said, I want you to leave your donors and hold that control. The worst thing you could D’oh. Sometimes with my early Astor’s, I’ll say, Oh, my gosh, You asked. Fantastic. Congratulations. How’d you leave it with? Um they said they’d get back to me, right? Oh, no. The worst thing ever, because it’s like you

[00:52:39.02] spk_2:
by the balls. You said you said earlier. Use your power. You know, you want to be that you want to be following up, not waiting for them,

[00:52:45.29] spk_5:
right? Make sure you’ve said you know what? Totally fine. Let’s look here and I kind of pretending to pick up my phone. Um, you know, are you in town in two, maybe two Fridays? Yeah, the 17. Great. I’ll reach out to you the morning of 17 C. Look, questions. You have to see if you’ve made a decision. We’ll have another conversation about it, Right? What did I just do? It picked up the control against

[00:53:05.79] spk_2:
exactly

[00:53:12.25] spk_5:
so often. It’s like I asked, I shared. I just didn’t hear from him. We didn’t hold the control. Super. Super important?

[00:53:36.95] spk_2:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, you need to. It’s a relationship, but it’s not 100% mutual. You need to You need to keep your control. Absolutely. You need thio because that’s the progress. You know, you need to move this relationship along your earlier relationship, your earlier hypothetical relationship, but, uh, tomans, whoever they were, the hetero company. You know

[00:53:40.01] spk_0:
you have this, Angela, you got to get to this couple. You gotta talk to

[00:53:46.64] spk_2:
these people and move them. And not just once, probably before they make their gift in November. So things need to move along. You can’t rely on other people too, to manage the timetable for you because it doesn’t matter to them. It

[00:53:56.88] spk_0:
matters to you.

[00:54:04.31] spk_2:
These are your needs. You gotta absolutely. You got to keep the control, the power out where you want to define it. Label it. You gotta move the thing along the relationship along.

[00:54:49.51] spk_5:
Yeah, and part of the last step is really you know. Okay, so this this always good planning and we have our tools in hand and we’re ready to do this. But at the end of the day, most fund raising an issue fail When? When the time is not allocated to do this. So even if your top 10 if you think of well, I’m gonna sit with him 3 to 4 times a year, that’s 40 meeting, right? And so if you are not planning out all those meetings all year long, you will not hit them all. You will not. And this is when I get calls in October, with their fiscal years ending in December saying, Oh, no. Oh, no. I’ve only I’ve only brought in 30% of my revenue. And how do I make it up in the last three months of the year? And my answer is it was what you did between January and October like That’s how you would have would have made it up. So you’ve got to move into the discipline and regularity of these activities to pivot up into these larger get

[00:55:11.74] spk_2:
Cherie. We gotta leave it there. It’s perfect. A CZ you said at the end of the day. Yes, you gotta perfectly said, No need to repeat it. Sherry Kwame Taylor Sherry can tell. You’ll find her at kwame taylor dot com And at Sherry. Cute Taylor. Thank you so much for sharing Sherry. One.

[00:55:22.17] spk_5:
Appreciate it.

[00:55:23.06] spk_2:
My pleasure.

[00:55:23.61] spk_5:
Eight weekend

[00:55:26.07] spk_2:
Thank you Next week, Peter Heller, another innovator on keeping the fund inboard fundraising, will dive down into that drill into that bit. Plus, Maria Semple returns. If

[00:55:37.27] spk_0:
you missed any

[00:56:05.80] spk_2:
part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A

[00:56:46.09] spk_0:
creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff, Sam Leibowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. You’re with me next week for not profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for February 14, 2020: Relationship Fundraising

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My Guest:

Adrian Sargeant: Relationship Fundraising
There’s a lot of conventional wisdom about how to be donor centric and build strong relationships. But what does social psychology research tell us about how to achieve these and what your donors expect from you at each relationship stage? Adrian Sargeant is chief executive of The Philanthropy Centre. (Originally aired March 18, 2016)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:31.34] spk_3:
non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on her aptly named host, Happy Valentine’s Day. I hope that you and your Valentine or Valentine’s may have multiple. Let’s not go into detail. Are enjoying time together I don’t know together, or at least corresponding together to share your affinity and Valentine’s wishes with each other. Um, I remember. I remember in elementary school this is probably kindergarten or first grade E. I think everybody’s done this. We used to make the little Valentine’s Day cards, and you had you did one card for everybody in your little class. And as I look back on that now, I think that is repugnant, forced like this kindergarten coercion that you have to be Valentine’s with everybody in the class. I hated the

[00:01:05.61] spk_2:
kids in my class is I

[00:02:47.55] spk_3:
Look back now They were They were unrequited. Uh uh. I don’t want to say unrequited loves because we’re talking about kindergarten, unrequited crushes. Yeah, and bullies and geeks who reminded me of myself while I was I was trying to be kindergarten. Cool, of course. So these kids drove me crazy and I have to do a card for each one of these little kids. I should’ve put arsenic in or something. What’s that? White powder? Everybody. Males, I forget what that is. Anthrax, I should put it. I should be interactive. Those kindergarten cards just so big deal. Happy Valentine’s Day. All right, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into cardio megally if you swelled my heart with how much you’re looking forward to today’s show relationship. Fundraising. What else? There’s a lot of conventional wisdom about how to be donor centric and build strong relationships. But what the social psychology research tell us about how to achieve these and what your donors expect from you at each relationship stage. Adrian Sergeant was a professor at Plymouth University and directed its Center for Sustainable Philanthropy that originally aired on March 18th 2016 on Tony’s Take two planned giving relationships. What else were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Adrian Sergeant is now chief executive of the Philanthropy Center, a consultancy in the UK Philanthropy Hyphen Center Dot or GE, with the English speaking um Spelling the English spelling, I should say of Center, Very sophisticated. Here is personalized philanthropy.

[00:03:42.59] spk_2:
It’s my pleasure to welcome Professor Adrian Sergeant to the show. He’s professor of fundraising at Plymouth University and director of the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy. There he used to hold the Hartsook chair in fundraising at the Lily Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University. Fact, he’s calling today from Bloomington. He’s a prolific author, researcher and presenter. If you go to the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy website, you will get bored scrolling down his list of books, papers, articles and presentations. Center, by the way, is C E N T R e. We have, ah, snooty English university there. Plymouth. He’s at Adrian Sergeant, and his last name is spelled like the military rank. Welcome, doctor, Professor. Edgy and Sergeant.

[00:03:58.14] spk_0:
Well, thanks.

[00:04:00.47] spk_2:
Pleasure. Welcome from from Bloomington, Indiana. How is it there?

[00:04:05.04] spk_4:
It’s a lovely spring day here, and

[00:04:07.43] spk_0:
I’m looking at into blue skies in sometime, which

[00:04:12.63] spk_2:
is not. Not always the case in the UK either.

[00:04:19.35] spk_0:
Uh, no, Certainly not in my part of the UK. Everything you hear about British rain and British weather is pretty much true. My region.

[00:04:23.61] spk_2:
I see. What region where his Plymouth

[00:04:26.71] spk_0:
Thomas is right down in the southwest tip of the country on its claim to fame, I suppose, for your audience is that it’s where the Pilgrim Fathers set sail from

[00:04:36.42] spk_4:
years ago. The Mayflower left from the steps of the barbeque in the area in the city. A plumber.

[00:04:54.89] spk_2:
Oh, excellent. Okay, that’s interesting. Oh, and then Plymouth. Then we have Plymouth Rock on the US side. So? So that was a very symmetric trip. I never knew that. Total symmetry ever

[00:04:56.16] spk_4:
visit. You can actually see the steps that

[00:05:04.10] spk_0:
the Pilgrim Fathers used Thio aboard the main fire before they set bail on that. That point Very epic journey.

[00:05:06.15] spk_2:
Yeah, of course. I I guess they called it Plymouth Rock Thio make it symmetric. So it’s not like it was named. It wasn’t named Plymouth Rock when they landed on it. I don’t want people to think that that’s what I was assuming that it was named Plymouth Rock when they landed. I don’t believe it was, um okay. Oh, very cool. Interesting. Thank you. Um, all right. Relationship fundraising. Adrian, it’s okay if I call you Adrian, right?

[00:05:29.41] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:05:37.64] spk_2:
Okay. I don’t get Doctor, you know, you’re not calling on me for questions or anything. So Dr a professor. Okay, Adrian, um, what’s the current state of this? I gather it’s not what it ought to be.

[00:05:59.63] spk_0:
No, sadly, the quality of relationship fundraising automatically in the States but around the world is not in a particularly happy space right now on the reason I say that is because he’s now got quite a lot of data on the pattern that dona retention and loyalty that we’re able to generate. And obviously the whole thrust of relationship fundraising is that you want to build longer term, mutually satisfying relationships and supported

[00:06:11.90] spk_2:
yes,

[00:06:25.50] spk_0:
and all the evidence that the moment is that it’s going in entirely the opposite direction we lose. Typically in the States, we lose around 70% of our supporters between the first and the second donation, and then probably around 30% of them year on year thereafter. Well, you try running a business.

[00:06:52.33] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ve had other guests on Quote that exact same statistic, and I don’t understand how this can be because there is so much talk about donor centric donor centrism and we have to listen to our donors and pay attention to their needs and put them in the center. Why Why? Why is this not working? There’s so much talk about it. Why are we not doing it?

[00:07:21.34] spk_0:
I think there are only two reasons for that. One is that often when I talk about loyalty and retention in the sense that kind of preaching to acquire a lot of fundraisers know what they should be doing or could be doing. But they don’t always necessarily get the stain level of investment from the board that they’re looking for on it could be oftentimes quite able to push that level of change through The second reason I think is on. We might talk more about this, but I think one of the problems we have in fundraising is that it’s one of the few professions, in fact, probably the only profession you enjoin

[00:07:38.08] spk_4:
without actually meeting to know anything. Good luck, you know, going to see a dentist

[00:08:03.91] spk_0:
to have studied or doctor that had studied or even employing a plumber who hasn’t studied. It’s important. I think, that fundraisers they’re exposed when they come into the profession to a body of knowledge. Then it’s agreed that this is what you need to know. If you’re going to be a successful, competent, calm razor on that, then organizations would employ people who had demonstrably, you know, got that body of knowledge because we don’t have that right now because we don’t value it. Oftentimes people end up in fundraising rolls where they’re really having to discover things that we already know.

[00:08:34.77] spk_2:
Yeah, now are we getting better? I mean, there are programs. There are degree programs and including at Plymouth University and the ones I can think of in the US at New York University and Columbia. Um, I think Fordham and those are only New York’s those ones. The ads that I get New York City. Those are only New York City. So there are more programs. Are we? Are we starting to recognize the value of a professional pressure, professionally trained fundraising force?

[00:08:45.43] spk_4:
I think

[00:08:46.92] spk_2:
for now

[00:08:47.34] spk_0:
that

[00:08:47.63] spk_2:
No, no, no, we’re not some

[00:09:17.61] spk_0:
of the some of the programs are varying quality. I mean, there are some good ones, obviously, that one come on by you. And there’s one of Mary’s in Minnesota and I could go on. But the sweet spot for fundraising education is where you got a blend delivery by practitioners and academics so that you get some of the emerging science of doing a behavior that impacts on what people Noah’s. Well, sadly, I think some programs are run entirely by practitioners. So you’re gonna get 1/2 of the equation there on what you’ll get, obviously, their you know, their background in their experience, which obviously has a place. But that’s not the same as being exposed to the modern research findings. That example on social psychology we’re gonna talk about that, could be informing what they do.

[00:09:38.26] spk_2:
Yeah, yeah, you end up with more of the conventional wisdom.

[00:10:02.69] spk_0:
Yeah, we’ve got a You know, I’ve mentioned we’ve got a problem with attention right now. What I didn’t say is that actually getting worse. I’ve just completed a very large scale study in England of six million boner records. We’ve looked at people recruited way back in 2000 and compared them with people recruited in 2010 on their substantively less loyal now. So not only we got very leaky bucket, but that bucket is getting weaker by the day.

[00:10:15.01] spk_2:
Okay, that’s Ah, that’s pretty positive motivation in enthusiastic motivation. Let’s Ah, let’s go out for a break. Adrian and I are gonna continue talking. Of course, we’ve got what What drives donor loyalty and how do you measure it? And the stages of the fundraising relationship? Stay with us.

[00:11:05.39] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As the CPS, for God’s sake. So we know what they do, right? Help with your nine nineties help with your audit. Um, we all are acquainted with what certified public accountants do. So do you need to make a change? Take a look at Wagner. You know, the, um, partner, You know, one of the partners who will be on the show Actually, next week, you each to him, um, started wegner-C.P.As dot com Talk to eat, see if their c p a firm can fit what you need from a c. P a wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:11:08.60] spk_2:
Adrian, let’s jump in and explore what what it is that we know will drive the donor loyalty that we’re trying to reverse the trend of,

[00:12:13.03] spk_0:
Well, the fact is really quite similar to any relationship that somebody might have with an organization. So there’s a lot of learning that we can take from the commercial world that we find it equally relevant to the non profit space on. My guess is that many of your listeners will have the car service recently or they stayed in a hotel or they used the service online. That probably they’ve been asked at some point, tell us what you think of the service has satisfied. Were you with the quality of that experience on these kind of satisfaction that is, in a sense, kind of quite ubiquitous. I think they re home. They’re Big Quintus is because there’s a huge link between her status side somebody with the court in service. There was the on their level of loyalty on people who are very status by six times more likely to come back and purchase again on average, people who just

[00:12:18.14] spk_4:
satisfied. So there’s, um, active behavioral difference on the

[00:12:30.59] spk_0:
extreme of the scale, right? So the goal needs to be for our organizations to get people to the point where they’re very satisfied, actually with the way they’re treated as a donor. Now, the last one I make here is that the multiple in our world

[00:12:43.22] spk_4:
isn’t as big as it is in the trading context. Trading world very satisfied, equates to six times more likely to come back again in

[00:12:59.29] spk_0:
our world doneness. You say they’re very satisfied that the cause your service provided by the fundraising team are twice as likely to be giving a year, then thin people who say they’re just satisfied. So it’s been a massive factor, but the multiple isn’t quite as big as it might be in other contexts.

[00:13:03.72] spk_2:
Okay, um, any any thoughts? Why, that is why I don’t How come we only get 1/3 of the the likelihood of returning the compared to the corporate world?

[00:13:39.26] spk_0:
Well, I think there’s a range of other factors that player in our space that also have an impact on loyalty and retention satisfactions an important one on one of the things I like to do it folks, that conference isn’t tease and then right in the satisfaction is a major driver of donor loyalty which in terms of which in turn, is a major driver of the value of the fundraising database. So how many people actually measure it? Then on if you’re lucky in a room of 200 people, you might get one hand

[00:13:43.69] spk_2:
goes on, then

[00:14:03.46] spk_0:
you are people well out of those folks you know who’s actually remunerated, how good they make their donuts feel on Duh. You won’t find any hands that go with that point that we don’t take that factor seriously enough. But then there are other things that creep in in our world the trust in the organization that some of your listeners might

[00:14:06.60] spk_4:
be thinking God havens talking about satisfaction with a court

[00:14:10.17] spk_0:
service provided by the fundraising team. But what about all that really great stuff we do with beneficiaries? Surely that’s gotta count for something

[00:14:15.32] spk_2:
in terms

[00:14:40.30] spk_0:
of retention and loyalty, right difference that we make Andi that’s true. But for most donors, unless they’re major donors, the mechanism for that it’s trust. If I’m a major donor and I’ve given you five million to put up a building, in a sense, I don’t need to trust you because I can see the building up. Right. But if I’ve given you $50 to help starving child, that I really have to trust that you say you do exactly what you told me you’re going to do with that resource.

[00:14:46.78] spk_2:
Eso

[00:14:47.42] spk_0:
trust for the vast majority of our donors is a big driving factor in terms of lost in the

[00:14:59.49] spk_2:
Okay. Okay, Um and, uh, you know, these sound very much like, not only, you know, relationship factors in a commercial sense, but also in a personal sense. They are our friends and our parents. No loved ones.

[00:15:33.80] spk_0:
Yeah, a lot of these relationship variables are just as relevant toe all human relationships. Originally, this study of things like satisfaction, trust and commitment all came out something called relationship marketing on what that was trying to do is to take ideas from human relationships on applying. In that case, thio the relationships that businesses have the customers on at the core of a ll. The relationship that we have of the emotions of satisfaction, commitment and trust.

[00:15:40.64] spk_2:
No. Anything you want to tease out about commitment? We spent little time with satisfaction and trust anything more. You want to say about commitment?

[00:15:50.89] spk_0:
Yeah, commitment is one of the really big drivers of loyalty on dhe. Usually that comes out stronger than thin. The others I’ve mentioned

[00:15:56.90] spk_2:
on

[00:16:37.79] spk_0:
what that is is a really burning passion to be the mission of the organization achieved. And you can imagine that people who are committed to finding a cure for breast cancer tend to support charities that do that and for extended periods of time. But that real passion to see the mission achieved is one of the really big drivers of loyalty and retention on. So the question, I suppose, then, is well, I had you build commitment. Then again, we know from research Quite a few things helped build commitment that wanted the risk. So if you’re running a shelter for homeless poke and I’m a donut, the organization and I believe that by canceling my gift today, somebody, somewhere is gonna be without a bed.

[00:16:42.95] spk_4:
Tonight I am a bunch

[00:17:16.68] spk_0:
more likely to continue to support that shelter s O. That element that I see a risk in canceling will help drive commitment. So too, will a personal connection. You know, if my life had been touched, my breast cancer, because I had lost a loved one to it. You can imagine that I’d be pretty fired up about finding a cure for that being committed to those sorts of organizations on then. Also, it worthy of note is something I call multiple engagements, and there’s a micro on a macro level to that. The macro level is that people who are donors and campaigners and service users and volunteers and

[00:17:24.21] spk_4:
and wait,

[00:17:25.49] spk_0:
let me get that and

[00:17:26.26] spk_2:
you

[00:17:52.26] spk_0:
get a whopping back, more loyalty and in the micro level is every time you have a two way interaction where there’s a little bit of cognition that takes place, maybe the organization asking your question, What would you like to receive? What do you think about this? How many times do you want to hear from last year? Do you want to get news? Whatever it might be every time you have that to a interaction with water, you get a little teeny, tiny bit more loyalty. And, of course, in the digital space, it’s now by easy toe have those little, many interactions with people, and it’s really worthwhile because ultimately it drives behavior.

[00:18:01.20] spk_2:
Excellent. Now there’s research supporting all this right

[00:18:05.44] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:06.45] spk_2:
I’ve

[00:18:26.34] spk_0:
bean doing work in the not profit space for the best part of 20 years. Now on. We’ve done large scale survey work with probably a couple 100,000 donors here in the States now getting on for two million donors in Europe, tracking the relationship between satisfaction, commitment, trust and then behaviors of interest. Like like you giving next year with assembly of upgrade on even actually leaving a bequest to the organization.

[00:18:39.14] spk_2:
What about that? That’s a significant How is that a significant factor?

[00:18:46.04] spk_0:
Well, one of the big drivers off the single biggest driver, I’d say, Really, the likelihood that somebody will leave a bequest. The nonprofit organization is how long they’ve been supporting

[00:18:57.92] spk_2:
it, Yes,

[00:19:13.50] spk_0:
on and typically find working with clients. I’ll say, you know, we’re gonna have a request program that is, forget all the complicated plan giving vehicles, but just right, asking somebody to remember a charity with a gift in their will or estate documents, then the single to get indicators of willingness to do that is how long people have been. Giving Onda anytime over three years actually is a pretty good indicator that that person cares about you is committed to the cause and therefore will at least give some consideration to that request. So surprise, Surprise. You know, commitment is a pretty big indicator of the likelihood of doing that.

[00:20:15.74] spk_2:
Okay, Yeah. I don’t know if you know that, but know this, but I do plan to giving fundraising consulting, and that’s where we’re always looking for the best potential bequest donors is who are the most committed loyal donors. And, uh, I didn’t know that a CE feu is three years. Could be could be a positive factor, But I’m always looking for Some organizations are easily, you know, decades older, sometimes sometimes even 100 years old. Couple of the universities have worked. So you know, if people have been giving 2030 years or 25 of the past 30 years, they’re, ah, enormously good potential donor for ah, for bequest or some of the other plan gifts to Yeah,

[00:20:39.88] spk_0:
Yeah, I I’d agree wholeheartedly with that it And it’s amazing how very few organizations even bothered to ask for a bequest on if they do. How many organizations think that somehow people will be inspired by the mechanics of death and dying some of the communications regenerate. Thank you. Just

[00:20:43.20] spk_4:
thank you. Make

[00:20:44.23] spk_0:
a will and

[00:20:45.06] spk_5:
you

[00:21:14.01] spk_0:
may change your will. And then the mechanics of the plan giving vehicles were actually You want somebody to give You want to inspire them with a vision of what the future could look like? That people are inherently more positive about the future on so good. Positive messages about what the world might look like that evoke a little bit of emotion are actually a lot more useful in that quest space than technical brochures about how you die miserable.

[00:21:24.01] spk_2:
Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that digression. But it’s it’s what I spend my time doing when I’m not when I’m not done. Non profit radio. Very interesting to going back to the There’s little micro engagements you get. You get a little uptick. You said of of, ah, commitment went with just these small engagement.

[00:22:15.18] spk_0:
Yeah. Um, if you if you would follow my knife on you woulda measure, let’s say satisfaction and commitment. And you sent out a little survey to a sample of your dignity. Our guarantee. If you tracked that sample of people over time, you’ll find that they’re a little, teeny, tiny, bit more loyal than the balance of the database. And that’s the administration of this little bit of cognition. You’ve got a communication from the Red Cross, Let’s say and you think that’s right. I got a relationship with the Red Cross. I’ll go back to them at all. Well, that’s a relationship with the American Cancer Society. Oh, that’s right. Every time you get that little bit of interaction, you get a little bit more loyalty questionnaire getting people to take other actions on your behalf that aren’t related to fundraising. Getting them to participate in an event that you’re doing online are tuning into a podcast or tell us what you think. All of those things are really smart in terms of loyalty. Because every time you have that interaction punch up just a little bit, how loyal these individuals are

[00:22:38.39] spk_2:
not standing. Love this. Okay, um, we need to be able to measure donor loyalty. How Ah, what are what are the metrics?

[00:22:50.00] spk_0:
Uh, well, one of the one of the big issues we’ve got in our sector right now is the metrics are, well, frankly wrong on to be even more blunt about it. I think a lot of our non profit boards need to be taken at Inspector.

[00:23:10.02] spk_2:
Is that a bare bottom spanking or they keep their pants. They keep their pants up. Is it Is a parrot a bare bottom spank with a paddle? Or is this a bare handed?

[00:23:15.19] spk_0:
I think it depends on the degree,

[00:23:21.48] spk_2:
a degree of readiness you want to achieve. Okay,

[00:23:31.37] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, why did I say that? Well, because oftentimes people who serve on non profit boards are actually quite bright. Oftentimes they had very successful business careers, and that’s one of the reasons that they’re there because they’re plugging in their advice as well. On it’s almost as if they part their bring that side the boardroom before they go through and into the meeting.

[00:23:43.69] spk_4:
Because in the

[00:24:42.74] spk_0:
commercial space, they know very well the measure customer lifetime value and they understand what that is. And I understand why it’s important they understand to the merits of measuring the things that drive customer lifetime value. So that’s why you get the satisfaction. So people measuring commitment and saw you walk through into the non profit boardroom and suddenly somehow all of that knowledge and understanding they had get forgot on. The only metrics we’re interested in is how much raised this part year or month. How many did you attract? Andi, you know, don’t start the metric that short term thinking doesn’t help you think about the lifetime value of your database and you And that was fundraising. That sub optimal. What you end up with this fundraising that is content to recruiting donors on, then lose 70% of them between the first and the second donation. That complete kind of focus on short term measures get people to the point where all they do is chase the short term measures. So we’re going to continue to try and find you Don’t.

[00:24:53.67] spk_2:
No, you don’t.

[00:24:55.12] spk_4:
We’re gonna continue

[00:25:18.04] spk_0:
to try and maximize how much money we could get those spokes. Actually, what we need to do is to take a step back and say, you know, maybe we should be measuring the things with Dr Longer Term or Lifetime Dahlia on beginning to reward our fundraising with the quality of the relationships that they build. Ronda van, you know, the dollars and cents that they raised yet today,

[00:25:22.31] spk_2:
okay.

[00:25:35.58] spk_0:
And immediately you do that, you get a huge change in culture because suddenly what people are interested in doing is building relationships, not having that sort of burn and turn way, haven’t

[00:25:44.95] spk_2:
you? Must have a lot of examples of what we should specifically be measuring in our our fundraisers?

[00:26:01.29] spk_0:
Well, I would if it were me. I would be using some of the same things that the commercial world have been using for 20 years, so I would measure satisfaction commitment on trust. Andi, you know there are measurement scales to doing that. It’s a little survey. You track how people feel

[00:26:22.94] spk_4:
on. If you do that, it’s the It’s the margin of those measures that makes the difference. Remember, I talked earlier about the percentage of people who were very satisfied, very satisfied. That’s the important bit. It’s the extremes of those scales and changes in that that make the difference on the

[00:27:24.83] spk_0:
good news is that even small improvements in loyalty in the here and now translate to a whopping improvements in the lifetime value of the fundraising database. So if I can improve the level of retention by 10% in the here and now, I can increase the last time value of hundreds in database by over 50%. Why? Because the effect compounds over time. So if you’ve got more donors left at the end of this year, you’re gonna have even more the following year. And even more than you know the year after that. For many organizations, that’s not the end of the story either, because most organizations lose money on donor acquisition just to go out and keep finding lots of donors to replace the one we lost that he knew a lot of money on. If you factor that into my equation, my little improvement in loyalty in the here and now of 10% would improve the lifetime, deliver hundreds in database for anything up to 100%. You

[00:27:25.02] spk_4:
can make

[00:27:25.54] spk_2:
a huge

[00:27:26.40] spk_5:
just

[00:27:28.03] spk_0:
by having little improvement in loyalty and hearing that.

[00:27:52.10] spk_2:
All right, um, I wonder if we can drill down to ah, more micro level in terms of the measurement of the performance of our our fundraising staff. Um, are there are there individual metrics and me in terms of how how they have moved donors from one stage to the other or, you know, in terms of the the actual performance of the fund raisers themselves or their metrics there.

[00:28:31.04] spk_0:
I think, I think, the answer, that question. We depend on the form of fundraising that you’re looking at on. So the metrics will be different depending on when it was dark. Don’t nail dot response or someone like Major Get Andi made. You get officers that remunerated to for the amount of money that they raised. But they’re also remunerated for the amount of time it’s been in front of clients. The member of proposals they made the number of recognition events there. Kendall. All of those good things. Um, but one of

[00:28:49.59] spk_4:
the things I think it can be shared a causal. The forms of fundraising is have a good do we make our donuts field today on measuring that that quality of the relationship, And that does come back again. The satisfaction commitment on dhe trust in the dark spot space. I would also be saying, you know, we should be taking decisions about

[00:28:55.77] spk_0:
investments on the basis off

[00:29:28.04] spk_4:
donor lifetime value on DDE. What that means in your complaining the issues that if we’re going to invest in an acquisition campaign we’re no gonna assess that campaign is a success simply because we bought in 200 donors on a lot of 100 donors because it may be that most people were recruited, won’t come back and give again right that we’ve gone with the other alternative campaign. We could have run, you know, we only recruited in 100 donors, but actually, most of those people stayed giving for the next five years. So taking

[00:29:53.24] spk_0:
longer term decisions based on that lifetime value, I think is really smart and even in small organizations that may behind a little difficult to do some of that matter. Maybe because they’re working on, even like a simple Excel database or something, they can still be looking at things like Retention Lee on beginning to shift the focus of the way in which the team is remunerated to the level of loyalty that’s engendered now. If you can also measure the things that drive loyalty, that’s great. But if you can’t, then the starting point for me is at least to get a sense of the health of that program and the health of relationships that just by you know, the numbers of people who were still actively engaged in court.

[00:30:24.90] spk_2:
Agent. I love the idea of measuring how donors feel of, um all right, we’re gonna come back. I need you to hang out for a couple of minutes while I do a little business. Don’t go anywhere, Adrian. Just Ah, just, uh, just keep listening.

[00:32:09.45] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software Quote We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with software, but they are always there to help walk me through it. End quote. That’s Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. More raves about their customer service. Don’t take it from me. Take it from the ticket from the customers. The user’s You got it. They have a free 60 day trial, which you will find on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take two and your planned giving relationships. Yes, the thing I like most about planned giving. It’s the relationships and being a consultant, I have a lot fewer of these donor relationships than I did in the ah back in the years when I was director of planned giving. But there are still some and and instead of having them and enjoying them personally. I sort of enjoy Maur a greater proportion of them by Karius Lee by coaching clients, helping them to build these plant giving donor and potential donor relationships. You know, these were talking about America’s elders, and they have stories that are touching and scary. Um, historical, Uh, you know, it’s a They have a different perspective because it’s different generation and you can you can just you can learn so much. They’re in a different phase of their life. They’re more relaxed. Mostly, um, it’s, uh, yeah, the relationships. It’s very touching, part of a plan giving program, and I go in even more detail. And I’ve got a story or two on the video, which you will find at tony-martignetti dot com about planned giving relationships. And that is Tony’s Take two. Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:35:00.59] spk_2:
I gotta send live listener love. I want to shout you out by city and state, but Sam here is having board the back end problems or something more talk about spanking or in the back end again. Um, we can’t see you by city and state, so I know that you’re out there New York, New York. ST Louis, Missouri Boston, Massachusetts New Bern, North Carolina, California I know there’s somebody in California listening, probably San Francisco, but I know there’s a California listener. Those are the live Listen, love people the loyal live a look that loyal, live listener live. Um, that I know her out there love, of course, to all the current live listeners and going abroad. I know there are listeners right now in Tokyo. Konnichiwa, I know we have listeners in China and Taiwan because we always do Ni Hao And I know that South Korea is checking in because it does week after week on Yo Hoss, I Oh, now, in case we are ah, in ah, in Mexico, we’ve had listeners in Mexico. Buenas today’s The Czech Republic occasionally does check in Dobre den Germany. We occasionally get Germany. Guten tag. Okay, I think that covers Ah, the most frequent live listeners. Sorry, we can’t do you No city and state as usual. We will get this back end problem slapped and slapped. Ah, and fixed by next week. Gotta send podcast pleasantries. Never forget the podcast listeners, Whatever it is you’re doing painting your house washing your dishes at whatever time you’re listening. Whatever activity, whatever device, over 10,000 of you so grateful pleasantries to the many podcast listeners and affiliate affections to our multiple multiple AM and FM stations throughout the country. Listeners from the Finger Lakes in New York to Salem, Oregon, and lots of states in between affiliate affections to our many affiliate listeners. Okay, Adrian. Sergeant, thank you so much for holding on. I have Thio have to acknowledge all our all our listeners of whatever ilk and variety they come. They all get a special shout out. So thank you for your patients. Um, we have ah, I love these measures, but we gotta move on. Let’s let’s talk about the different stages. You’ve identified stages of the donor relationship and there are different strategies appropriate for each. First just please just lay out the but the, um, the stages are, and then we’ll come back and revisit.

[00:35:37.96] spk_0:
Well, there’s an awareness stays where people become aware of the organization. For the first time on exploration plays, people begin to kind of extra what the relationship might might mean for them on. Then you’re kind of deeper into the relationship where there begins to be an element of commitment. And then eventually, over time, you know, some relationships will come to an end. Of course not. Everybody’s gonna continue giving for forever. But what we don’t know how you treat different points in that journey can make a very big difference. Unsurprisingly, how loyal?

[00:35:42.01] spk_2:
Yes, and especially knowing that these micro engagements make a difference in loyalty. I going back to that because I admire it so much. I love it. Um, okay, we have a few minutes we can spend, you know, on each of the stages. But help us with awareness what’s going on? And what should we be doing to give our donors what they’re seeking at that stage?

[00:36:12.32] spk_0:
Well, at this point, I suppose we’re talking about people who haven’t given for the organization before. So we’re talking about individuals that you’re trying to list it, too. Get them to make a contribution for the first

[00:36:19.24] spk_4:
time on one of the things I say about fundraising in

[00:36:44.67] spk_0:
generally that some of what we generate is is really bland on. If you want to get people to give, you want them to give reasonable sums of money have to make him feel something. Logic leap to conclusions. Emotion leads the action on fundraisers. Don’t want conclusions. Progress this far in large one people take action.

[00:36:47.53] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:36:48.02] spk_4:
And so you’ve

[00:37:14.00] spk_0:
got to get people to feel something you’re gonna stimulate them to give to your organization on dhe. Too many particular kind of Sunday letters in this country. You know, a bland three or four paragraphs might inspire somebody was on the cusp of making a gift. Could, you know that’s not gonna happen. You’ve got to generate materials that Helen emotional story

[00:37:18.46] spk_2:
and telling

[00:37:19.42] spk_0:
a stipulate that all important.

[00:37:22.33] spk_2:
Okay, okay. Emotion. Um, it’s very intuitive, but we still see a lot of ah, bad practice out there.

[00:38:10.51] spk_0:
Yeah, way. Still see a lot of those very bland one page letters signed by the chief executive, maybe even a picture of the chief executive when Actually, there’s a lot to say around the nature of the cause that could be compelling. I’ll give you one example of a pact that’s doing the rankings again. It’s been around for years, But Amnesty International, they sent out a flat pain attached to a piece of card with a picture of somebody whose eyes have been gouged at on the strap line effectively says, What you hold in your hand is an instrument of torture when you read to your horror that actually why this person’s eyes against that is because some somebody somewhere in the world used the pain on this youngster Thio get guided either. And it’s horrible when

[00:38:23.39] spk_4:
you when

[00:38:38.46] spk_0:
you read it and you’re outraged. And of course, the pen can also be a mechanism for doing something about it. On immediately, I get youto feel the anger or feel the compassion for that child I talked you into the court was you understand why what I do is important at that point. And are you more likely to respond and make a gift? Of course.

[00:38:47.75] spk_5:
On you know, there

[00:38:48.92] spk_0:
are lots of other examples we could talk

[00:38:50.30] spk_2:
about. That solution

[00:38:51.55] spk_0:
is absolutely critical to getting people to get for the first time.

[00:39:01.27] spk_2:
That’s a brilliant one. Well done. Ah, Amnesty Bravo. I give you

[00:39:29.87] spk_0:
one other from kidney research in the UK. Um, there was a cent a pack that told the story of a little girl who has kidney disease on very likely won’t won’t live for many years. On the letter that was contained with the picture of this little girl was actually a letter from her kidney. Two little Katie apologizing for the fact that you know the kidney is not able to do its job

[00:39:32.83] spk_2:
and heart

[00:39:33.64] spk_0:
rending little

[00:39:34.22] spk_5:
store.

[00:39:56.08] spk_0:
But, you know, when you read it, you’ve given a real strong connection to that little girl, and you feel the heartbreak that her parents must be going through and immediately you do that. If you’ve got kids yourself, you get that lump in your throat when you think my goodness, you know I have to do something about that because that’s horrible. I don’t want the little girls like Katie not be heard, not be able to have the operation in the care they need.

[00:40:01.96] spk_2:
My okay. Uh, very touching. Let’s go to AA exploration. What’s happening there?

[00:42:35.84] spk_0:
Well, at that point in the relationship that they’re kind of getting to know you stage that’s taking place. Andi, I noticed now that there are a number of charities playing very creatively with three D communications s o, you see people less in the U. S. But another part of the world Act on shopping malls and high streets with three D headsets so that people can experience what it’s like to be in a school in Botswana, what it’s like to be in a hospital in northern Nigeria or wherever it might be in the world. So you can sort of transport people away for a few moments to be able to see the work that’s being done on the ground. I think those things are quite powerful here in states of one international aid organization that does that great powerfully with trailers, and it’ll take a trailer to a community. Then you can go inside that trailer and you can walk around a school in the developing world, and you can see the country experiences of those kids having so thinking in a very creative Ryan back. Taking people inside the cause, I think is really important don’t necessarily need to involve the latest technology. Certainly video pictures that take you into that world, I think very important on The other thing I would say at this point, is that you might begin to creep some choice in to the kind of relationship that you’re having with individuals I used to. When I was teaching this 20 years ago, I’d say, Well, it’s awful People choice from day one. So you you allow people to choose whether they want a hard copy newsletter Oh, our digital newsletter or no newsletter, but appeals or whatever since realized that it’s smarter to wait just a little bit until people get into the relationship so that they can take smarter decisions about actually what they want. Because if you ask me from Day One Adrian, do you want a newsletter? Then a green is almost certainly gonna say no, right, because newsletters sound boring, and I’m probably not gonna want that. But if you wait four or five months into the relationship, how regular newsletter? And actually I’ve realized that this is really quite moving or you know, the information that there is compelling and uninterested. Then I’m all like it say no. Actually, I’ll continue to receive So giving people a little bit of choice of the communications is a smart thing to do in relationship fundraising

[00:42:41.70] spk_2:
ago.

[00:42:42.22] spk_4:
But I

[00:42:51.20] spk_0:
would begin to creep that Emma’s. The relationship begins to develop over time, and I’d allow people to identify the kinds of things they want in the frequency.

[00:43:12.38] spk_2:
Okay, we’re gonna go out for a break. I have to mention then that the people who attended your early programs did not get the got screwed it better. Better to come to a later Adrian Sergeant presentation or Webinar. If you were doing Webinars back then, probably not know. 20 years ago, there was no there was no web. But But you get checked the guy out now because he’s learned from his own his own research. All right,

[00:43:19.01] spk_0:
Probably by the time I know exactly what I’m talking.

[00:43:23.65] spk_2:
Yes, that’ll be brilliant. Okay, there’s gonna be a gonna be a nursing home. It’s gonna get great great pro bono advice from you. Okay, let’s go out for a break. Adri and I will talk about the next stage commitment. And then we also talk about next steps for you and for Adrian’s research. Stay with us.

[00:44:13.09] spk_3:
It’s time for our last break. Relationships. Do you want journalists to know you so that when news breaks, they call you for the expertise they know that you’ve got turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and get all the media to heart you right? That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. When the news breaks, you want to be called, or at least have your calls taken. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for relationship fundraising.

[00:44:48.41] spk_2:
Um, I won’t let you know that you can get this research at pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant is one of the funders of this research and thankfully, through their sponsorship, I met Adrian. And, uh, we’re getting this enormously wonderful value on today’s show. So thank you. Pursuant. Thank you, Adrian. Welcome, pleasure. All right, let’s go to Ah, now we just have, like, five or six minutes left. So we need to be a little efficient without time. The next stage commitment. What’s what’s happening there?

[00:45:02.81] spk_4:
Well, in commitment, you’re really beginning then to build up that strong relationship bond with the supporter.

[00:45:08.35] spk_0:
One of the things I would be doing much earlier on at the point

[00:45:11.52] spk_4:
of acquisition, actually to gather information about the sorts of things that the individual is interested in. If you’ve got a nonprofit that has four or five different kinds of program, or I think that is going on. I’d be asking them early on in the relationship which of those things they’re particularly interested in? Because if I do nothing

[00:45:27.25] spk_0:
else that I’m gonna make sure that when I’ve got something going on in one of those spaces that

[00:45:41.94] spk_4:
they’re interested in, that they know about it and have the opportunity reported being respectful of people’s interests, I think is a particularly kind of key thing and building that commitment.

[00:45:43.48] spk_2:
Okay. And that on bat comes back to some of what you were saying about giving people a choice.

[00:45:54.08] spk_4:
Yeah, if you understand why people are supporting the organization that you know that that’s a powerful thing you can then use to shake the communication where they’re gonna follow.

[00:46:16.68] spk_2:
Okay, By the way, I created a false sense of urgency, but not deliberately. When I said five or six minutes, I was alone. We have more like nine minutes left, so don’t you have an extra three minutes. So take a nap and ah, and then we’ll pick up after a three minute nap. No, um what else we got You can laugh openly, so I should hope you Please weigh. Need somebody to be laughing,

[00:46:22.77] spk_4:
thinking that my students would probably appreciate

[00:46:30.40] spk_2:
you pass that on to them, but do it at the end of the class. Do it at the very end of the class. Um,

[00:46:35.39] spk_4:
yeah.

[00:46:40.95] spk_2:
Okay, um, anymore. Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:53.48] spk_4:
If I pick up on on the nation of commitment, I think one of the other things that people possibly don’t realize that came through from my report is that the value that donors get from the

[00:47:06.36] spk_0:
relationship shifts a bit of the relationship deepens. So initially, when you’ve got that really powerful emotional packed communication that you’re not gonna use, people are really interested in the impact on the beneficiary write all about. Did you do what you said you were gonna do

[00:47:24.93] spk_4:
and have no impact on that child’s life? Well, as the relationship deepens, the donor becomes at least as much concerned about what impact on the child. I mean, for my sense of who I am

[00:47:29.88] spk_2:
on.

[00:47:35.07] spk_4:
I think you know what we’re talking about. Then it’s something that psychologists call identity, and I think that’s gonna be the next big thing in fundraising because

[00:47:42.94] spk_0:
it’s a little different from understanding the motives that people have for supporting it. The motives for supporting little Katie

[00:47:48.57] spk_4:
and her kidney operation example. Identity is a bit different. Instead

[00:47:50.59] spk_0:
of what motivated used to support the organization. That stage you’re asking, what are people saying about themselves when they give? So what kind of person are they saying they are when they support

[00:48:05.83] spk_2:
my non profit Adrian York? Let

[00:48:05.97] spk_4:
me understand that

[00:48:07.45] spk_0:
we can begin to shape our communication to make them feel good about that being that kind of

[00:48:48.80] spk_2:
Gen Shang, your colleague at the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy, C E N T R E was on was on non profit radio talking about something that this makes me think of, Um, she had research from public radio when people would call in to public radio to make a gift. They were greeted with something along the lines of thank you for being a kind supporter or a loyal supporter or a generous supporter, and she had different adjectives and and tested different adjectives against outcomes and particularly among women. The right adjectives would increase the the women’s giving through through these phone calls. Does that sound familiar to you?

[00:48:58.47] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And what you’re talking about there, of course, is one kind of identity. You’re talking about moral identity.

[00:49:04.53] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:49:11.25] spk_0:
so, you know, a lot of giving might be because I’m saying Adrian is a moral person. I might also

[00:49:11.83] spk_4:
be saying I’m a father. I’m a parent. I’m a cancer survivor. I’m a patriot. I’m

[00:49:21.38] spk_0:
a liberal I’ma environmentalist. I’ma, i’ma i’ma. And when you understand the identity that’s being articulated, then you make people feel good about that, right? Because if they’re gonna give, when they’re that kind of person, let’s Let’s tell them it’s good to be that kind of person and give him the kind of content that really reinforces that I don’t see it makes him feel good.

[00:49:37.85] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:49:38.31] spk_0:
Remember we said earlier in this conversation, I think one

[00:49:40.77] spk_4:
of the things we need to

[00:50:27.43] spk_0:
do moving forward if toe worry about hitting the need of our beneficiaries so sure that we could be at least is concerned with how good we made our donors feel today on one of the keys to unlocking that is to understand what they’re saying about themselves when they give to our organization and what that support of us really means to their sense of who they are. And I was saying that the relationship deepens people away to what that really means for them and who they are. On dhe, we start to be looking for a relationship. So the time to meet some of our higher order needs. And by that I mean connected personal growth, self fulfillment,

[00:50:28.51] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:50:52.96] spk_0:
what has my support, my five years support of your non profit organization, say about my personal growth and had connected? I am with people that are important to me where I am incomes of myself fulfill it. If we start to think about right, that’s where our longer term supporters are. Maybe we can help them make some of those reflections on feeling better about their support of our organization is actually where we communicate across more than any other sex. Er, we should really be concerned with maximizing how good we can make our supporters feel.

[00:51:11.60] spk_2:
Okay, Adrian, I I have to stop our our substance because we gotta move to next steps and we just have a couple of minutes left, and I want to get to both parts of this. So what can a non profit do with this wealth of information?

[00:51:39.28] spk_0:
Well, if you visit if they visit the pursuant website, they’ll be out of download a copy off. There are really two key volumes to the to the research. One is lessons from relationship marketing. One is lessons from social psychology on. They could trial some of those ideas for themselves and their fundraising. So that’s the most obvious thing that folk might be to do at the end of the court. Go to the website, have a report, anything there?

[00:51:50.51] spk_2:
Okay, and again that it’s pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising. That’s where you’ll find the four volumes. But Adrian, you’re recommending the 1st 2 as being most valuable. Sounds like,

[00:52:02.01] spk_0:
uh, that they’ve certainly covered most of material we talked about today,

[00:52:05.94] spk_4:
okay, and there’s

[00:52:09.87] spk_0:
a lot of other ideas from social psychology. The other thing that might like to do if they’re in an organization that of a reasonable size, we’re planning on doing a serious of field experiments over the next two years.

[00:52:20.70] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:52:37.59] spk_0:
we’ll work with a number of non profit partners on blitz there. Don’t find it too. 1/2 would continue to get the communications that they get now. The other half would get communications that bean tweaked in some way to help build up relations.

[00:52:39.91] spk_2:
OK, very quickly. What type of organization are you looking for?

[00:53:04.72] spk_0:
We’re looking for organizations that have groups have donors that are above 600 people s. So we’re not looking for organizations that are necessarily massive that we’re looking for. Organizations that have a reasonable number of donors in each of the segments they want to study on will be willing to work with a bearing the cost of doing those experiment.

[00:53:07.43] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:53:07.76] spk_0:
we’ll get the impact of that relationship approach on money raised on how good people feel.

[00:53:13.36] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, excellent. Getting to the feelings. Uh, what’s your email address? If people would like to submit their organization or talk to you more about being on in the research,

[00:53:31.63] spk_0:
it’s a green dot sergeant a d r i n dot s a r g e a n t at Plymouth y m o u t h don’t a c don’t you Kay?

[00:53:42.26] spk_2:
Excellent. Adrian, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much. So much valuable information thank you. Cheers.

[00:54:03.42] spk_3:
Next week, you’ll each tomb returns with how to select your auditor, and Jean Takagi will be with us in the studio. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Bye, Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producers.

[00:55:15.64] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scotts. Dine with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, huh?