Category Archives: Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Nonprofit Radio for January 24, 2020: Social Change Is Systems Change

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Heather McLeod Grant & Adene Sacks: Social Change Is Systems Change
And to change systems, you need to employ networks. Those networks need leaders and facilitators. Enter Heather McLeod Grant and Adene Sacks. They are co-authors of the workbook, “Leading Systems Change.”

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2020: Personalized Philanthropy

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My Guest:

Steven Meyers: Personalized Philanthropy
It’s his 3 killer apps for fundraising that make Steven Meyers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remain largely outside the mainstream, for no good reason. (Originally aired 6/17/16)

 

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Transcript for 472_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200117.mp3

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[00:00:13.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome

[00:01:22.90] spk_2:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. The Innovators. Siri’s continues this week, as last week was, our first continues this week. Now, every show is not gonna be an innovator. Show like next week will not be an innovator, but the innovators air peppered in on and the others are brilliant guests that have very smart ideas to share. Just not quite innovators. Okay, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our second show in the Innovators. Siri’s personalized philanthropy and live innovators are coming. I promise. It’s his three killer APS for fundraising that make Steve Myers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remained largely outside the mainstream for no good reason that originally aired June 17th 2016 on tony Stake to planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cook, a Mountain software Denali fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is personalized Philanthropy

[00:01:49.24] spk_3:
I’m very pleased that Steve Myers is here in the studio for the hour. He is vice president of the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science and author of the book Personalized Philanthropy. Crash. The Fundraising Matrix. He’s a frequent and popular speaker, and he’s at Steven Myers. 863 S T e v E N N e Y E R s Welcome, Stephen Meyers. Welcome to the studio.

[00:02:17.49] spk_4:
I love tony.

[00:02:23.58] spk_3:
Glad to have you in person. I love it here. Glad you’re here. Um, let’s start with the basics with the title. What is this Matrix That you want people to crash?

[00:02:48.34] spk_4:
Yes, the book is called Crash The Fundraising Matrix. Because, um, it reflects what my experience was when I I I was in the process of writing the book when I realized all along that I’d been living in these two cultures that were completely unaware of each other and the Matrix. The movie The Matrix is the perfect metaphor for describing these two cultures. If you remember in the movie

[00:02:57.42] spk_3:
you have to describe, I didn’t see the movie

[00:03:07.71] spk_4:
in the movie. People were taken over by cybernetic implants, robots, machines that rebelled against humanity. And they existed only in, ah, like in a computer matrix. And everybody in the Matrix was really unaware of it. They just thought that everything was normal. They were living in their normal lives, and they didn’t realize that they were kind of being held prisoners, that they were enslaved in a sense. And that’s what the movie is about. When this one person that called Neo the one wakes up to the fact that he’s living in this synthetic artificial environment.

[00:03:35.22] spk_3:
You are You are our neo

[00:03:55.21] spk_4:
I am, and I’m standing in for all the fundraisers who are trying to wake up who feel the same sense of something’s just not right in my world is the fundraiser, and that was the experience that I had. Um, and I wanted to write the book to share that with people so they could wake up, help them to wake up and kind of escape the confines of the silos and the channels that they’ve been stuck in for so many years. Okay, sometimes without even realizing it.

[00:04:16.26] spk_3:
Okay. Uh, so you’re neo nickname Neo? Okay, Steve Neo Myers. Um, all right. Rob was deconstructing The titles are working away backwards. Now, what is the this model Personalized philanthropy

[00:05:26.24] spk_4:
Personalized philanthropy is is the antidote the opposite of what goes on in the Matrix? If you think about fundraising and philanthropy when it translates into the way that we work, it’s really like there’s two cultures. There’s an institutional focused culture which is focused almost entirely on trying to make campaign goals and reach objectives within the annual department or the major gift department. And the plan giving department. And even the small organizations tend to mimic these thes Silas and channels. My first experience was in really working and maybe a two man organization to people, and one of us was assigned this one channel and the other one of us was assigned to the other channel. And how ridiculous is that? It’s a counter intuitive. So the institutional focus is set off against this personalized focus, where instead of trying to service the campaign. You’re trying to serve the interests of donors. You meet the donor where they are instead of where the institution is. So you’re really talking about a whole new definition of what philanthropy is and what fundraising is. Four.

[00:05:55.34] spk_3:
We’ve been talking about donor centered fundraising for a dozen years or so Roughly, maybe, maybe more. Sure. I mean, I’ve been fundraising for 19 years. I don’t think we started out that long ago. But donor centric fundraising donor centered has been around for I’d say at least a dozen years or so. Why is how are you neo gonna gonna make this different and actually get us to where donor center is supposed to have been a CZ long as 12 or 15 years ago.

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
We’ve been talking about donor centered this and donor center that for a really long time, but we really haven’t had much to do about it. Um, when some people talk about donor centered fundraising, they’re talking about recognizing the donor or maybe finding a vehicle that they’re talking about selling a vehicle that they need to sell in order to make to bring that donor in so really donor centered fundraising and that’s really a copyrighted. It’s a trademarked. Yeah, Um, and it it really could have to do with how you thank them. How you write to them, how you called, cultivate them. But it doesn’t really have anything to do with what fundraising and philanthropy is about which, under my definition, the deafness that I’ve been working with is trying to mesh the compelling needs of interests off a donor with the compelling needs of the organization. So that changes. If you start with that definition where the donor’s needs matter, that’s the focus is on them. I really refer to this is donor focus giving rather than donor centered giving because the shift means that you’re focused on trying to understand the compelling interests in the passions of the donor and how they would connect to your organization. All right, that’s much different than the institutional focus

[00:07:33.14] spk_3:
on our hope. Personalized philanthropy is gonna is not gonna take this long to be really be realized, as as donor the donor centered trademark name. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. You’re the You’re the evangelist for for personalized philanthropy.

[00:07:37.75] spk_4:
I believe I am,

[00:08:04.99] spk_3:
I presume. Okay. Very good. We got the right person, and I mean you you brought the book. All right, Um, there’s let’s make sure now we just have a minute or so before break, but we got plenty time to talk. We’re you know, you’re here for the full hour. Let’s make sure that small and midsize shops know that they have. This is applicable to them. And they probably have advantages in trying to pivot to to be personalized philanthropists, philanthropies sent centers or shops, right?

[00:08:36.44] spk_4:
Yes. When I wrote the book, I was thinking of the person like me who was working in a small shop who had a background in annual giving and found themselves working in a major giving field. So for me, they were always connected. And I think that this is about empowering and enabling a person in a small shop to make a difference with every donor that they work with, not just the ones that there focused on for annual or planned or major giving. You meet the donor where they are. That’s the That’s the magic of this.

[00:08:43.74] spk_3:
Okay, excellent. All right. I want that reassurance. I’m very glad to hear it. And ah, Steve and I are gonna keep talking about personalized philanthropy. Stay with us.

[00:09:18.75] spk_2:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new C p A. A firm whose service is excellent, provides clear directions and timetables, is easy to work with and where you know, a partner That’s heat Coach Tomb has been a guest several times on the show. He’s gonna be coming back, and he will tell you whether Wagner can help you in 2020. So you start at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone and talk to eat. Now back to personalized philanthropy.

[00:09:29.78] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, um, you talk about in the book you mentioned a few times Transformation over transaction Flush that out from. Yeah,

[00:10:17.64] spk_4:
there’s two ways to think about fundraising the usual ways to think about the donor period and have a colleague who was written a book about the Donor Life Science Cycle Pyramid and the Pyramid. You’re thinking about transactions. You’re thinking about where a donor falls as a major donor at the top, in the middle or at the bottom. Transformational fundraising. You really thinking about time you’re thinking about loyalty? You’re thinking about relationships and they can take place over time. And the problem with with the pyramid style, the transactional, is that each transaction is separate and unrelated to all the others. What personalized philanthropy does is it creates a new model where all the transactions are connected to one another so that each gift can count in a way that would never count ordinarily. And it could explain. I can give you an example

[00:10:20.15] spk_3:
of examples stories. Just imagine.

[00:11:01.84] spk_4:
Imagine a rope. What end of the rope is the first gift and another end of the rope is the last gift. This is the chain of value in in in plan giving in and fundraising. And if you know all the all the value comes out at the end when the donor dies, implant giving it well, really. And if you think about the lifetime value of a donor, the big gifts come at the end. Yes. Okay. Ah, and you’re looking for bumps and major gifts and special gifts gifts. You make frequently gifts you make once in a while during a campaign and gifts you make once when you die. So what you have is you have a long rope with a lot of knots in it. What you’re gonna do and personalized philanthropy is you’re gonna move this rope around and you’re going to connect all of the knots. And that’s good means that all of these gifts are going to be connected with what another and they’re going to be united around, Ah, common purpose that the donor has an objective goal that not one gift could achieve. But all together, they can start to make a big difference during the donor’s lifetime. That’s a radical rethinking of how philanthropy works.

[00:11:26.88] spk_3:
Can we tie the two ends of the rope together and make a circle so that it’s it’s unending and non never breaks a

[00:11:34.59] spk_4:
circle? Or you could make a

[00:11:36.25] spk_3:
don’t make a new You don’t make the news.

[00:11:43.13] spk_4:
You make it. You’ll make a circle. You’re making really a tapestry like a like a Persian rug, each each. A lifetime of giving has a different design, and each donor kind of weaves their own tapestry of giving as they go through their life.

[00:12:01.54] spk_3:
Okay, I won’t force you to take the metaphor any further. We’re going to start making cat beds, and that’s not okay. Okay, um, Now, you you run at the Weizmann Institute, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. I’m I’m betting that it wasn’t called the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. When you first got there, you had to make some changes.

[00:12:26.42] spk_4:
I was the national director of plan giving that I was the national vice president for plan giving. And then ultimately, we decided to abandon the title of plan given, because

[00:12:28.02] spk_3:
sounds very solid. And may Trixie to me. Well, it was

[00:12:38.14] spk_4:
it was we came to realize that plan giving us Justus much asylum or channel has any of these other pains, and we weren’t working that way anymore. So we wanted to change that. Actually, what inspired the change from plan giving to personalized philanthropy was when my organization, the Weizmann Institute, decided to establish a center for personalized medicine. That’s a collaborative, multi disciplinary, interdisciplinary program where people are, um, um, collaborating in all kinds of new ways. And when I heard that phrase personalized medicine, You mean this medicine is designed for one person only. And it’s gonna work the first time

[00:13:11.97] spk_3:
in their DNA to select connected

[00:13:56.12] spk_4:
with that with their Deanna. Why, You know, that just was a wake up call for me that that’s what Philanthropy and fund raising Auto bay. All right, one of you kind of full spectrum. All the building blocks should be available to you. You bring them toe where the donor is, rather than trying to sell them something that you have you been instructed, really? Basically toe bring to them and ask them, Would you make a gift of X for this math, building, math and science building? And it doesn’t matter if the person cares about math or science. Maybe they were in the art department or they were a into literature or poetry. And why would they?

[00:14:15.44] spk_3:
Yeah, but we need based on our needs, space, the organization’s needs. But now you had to do some cultural and organizational change to create the the the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. What advice do you have for people who want to initiate this in their own organization? How do we start that conversation?

[00:14:31.62] spk_4:
I wouldn’t make a lot. I wouldn’t wait a lot for the organization to change its culture or its policies or procedures. Personalized plate. That is something that you could begin to think about when you kind of open up your your mind first realize that there is this matrix of Silas and channels that all of our fundraising basically is in. Right. And you want to try to find a way to connect your current giving in your future, giving around where your donors are at. And in order to do that you need like like an personalized medicine. They have technology. They have. They’re using technology in new ways. They have computational biology, so they could look at all this life science information in a systematic way. And this technology allows them to personalize medicine. So we have to have some tools that allow us to do this. And so I developed these things that I called killer APS. They are gift designs for bringing together current and future gifts that could be personalized and individually tailored to work with each donor.

[00:16:09.74] spk_3:
Yes, and we’re gonna get to the killer APs. But where were sporting neos throughout the throughout the world And there are in small, most of them listeners. There’s a small and midsize nonprofits, and they want to start a conversation about making a shift to personalize philanthropy from the Matrix that they are now burdened with right? I were want some tips. How did they start? But they’re going to sound like a lunatic the first time they go to their vice president or their CEO executive director, personalized philanthropy. And they have rope metaphors and not something you know how may be based on your own experience or, you know you’re coaching of others. How do we get this process started in our own currently matrix to shop?

[00:17:03.18] spk_4:
Well, as I said, the first thing you have to do is wake up to the fact that you’re working in a silo. Oh, and awareness awareness. And then you need to look outside of yourself outside of your silo. And, for instance, if you’re involved in playing giving, you know that one of the things that really makes that correlates with the plan gift is the donor who gives all the time. A donor who gives frequently tends to be the kind of person who wants to remember your organization in their estate plans. In fact, they may already have done that. So you would think, Wouldn’t it be amazing if we, without changing very much of this donor’s habit or pattern of giving. They could have a much greater impact today, instead of waiting until their death when they’re bequest comes in so kind of realizing that it’s possible Tiu have impact and recognition for a donor that begins right now.

[00:17:20.60] spk_3:
Okay, were so we’re gonna look to methods off current recognition and current value for both the organization and the and the donor, right, rather than long term. All right, All right, let’s start and and you have the killer APs before we get to the killer APS I think I’d like you just explain the spend rate because the Apsara largely dependent on an endowment spend rate, and there may very well be organization. I don’t even have an endowment yet, so let’s explain, spend rate.

[00:17:56.70] spk_4:
This personalized philanthropy works whether or not you have an endowment or not, Right. If you don’t have an endowment, you still need to have cash reserves, and you still need to be able to be financially sound. So that’s an objective that every organization has, even if they’re, ah, food bank or the kind of organization where they believe that they should not have an endowment. So

[00:18:05.04] spk_3:
there are a good number of them. There’s a

[00:19:09.34] spk_4:
lot of them out there, actually smaller ones, right? But the basic principle involved here is what I would call something like like this. It’s the grail of fundraising. The question that is not asked very often by donors to the organization is what’s the best gift that I could give you if I could give you anything that you wanted? Most organizations would ask for ID, like a gift of cash, and I like it right now. Thank you very much on and they would, and they would like to have it for general purposes. Um, but the question that they don’t know to ask is, Can we have a gift that will start working right away? Because we need to pay our bills. We have current deeds, and we also want to sustain ourselves for the future. So we need a gift that starts now and grows and scales up for the future. And most people in plain giving our only focus on the future. And most people in major and annual giving our only focus current president. So this grail of fundraising is the gift that really is the ultimate, the kind of gift that the organization needs the most but doesn’t even know how to ask for. OK, and that’s the kind of gift that we’re talking.

[00:19:17.70] spk_3:
All right, let’s define spend rate for people, and then we’ll get to your killer. APS spends Ben Drake

[00:19:21.72] spk_4:
please in an endowment on down when it’s usually thought to be the most important type of gift because a person makes a gift. And instead of being expended immediately, it goes into a bank account, an investment program, and each year a certain percentage of that fund is spent on the on the project or the program or the program, whatever that might be. And usually it’s like 5%.

[00:19:44.09] spk_3:
Yeah, I’ve seen between, like, three and 1/2 and five okay and used to

[00:19:50.64] spk_4:
used to be higher with the With Economy tanked a few years ago, I was spending rates began to to drop

[00:19:54.26] spk_3:
right because this is the amount that you’re spending from your endowment, and your endowment is supposed to be perpetual. So when investment returns or low spend rate spend, rates come down. This is typically decided by the board or maybe a committee of the board each year and Sometimes they look at the role of the average of the past three years returns. And that’s all financial stuff like

[00:20:15.68] spk_4:
if you What’s the idea?

[00:20:23.24] spk_3:
That, yeah, I’ve just wanna just feeling a little background, so to spend rate. So the spend rate changes from year to year. That’s the point. And typically you see same like three and 1/2 to 5. Or usually it’s

[00:20:46.84] spk_4:
around around 5%. And for the purpose of the conversation, it’s It’s pretty good. So that if someone makes $100,000 gift for an endowed scholarship and the scholarship is a proxy for whatever is something that’s really important to the donor into the school or the meshing, yes, then that $100,000 is going to produce, like, $5000

[00:20:50.38] spk_3:
each year we spend each year 5005% of endowment. Okay,

[00:20:54.90] spk_4:
so that’s how that’s how the spend rate works. And the goal of every fundraiser is to go out and get that endowment gift.

[00:21:00.65] spk_3:
All right, now we got the basics. Your first killer app is the virtual endowment. What is that? Well, that sounds very jargon e Virtually we have George in jail on tony-martignetti non profit radio. Okay, but I know you’re gonna get yourself out quickly.

[00:21:47.08] spk_4:
I’ll try. Well, you take that endowment that you just talked about the $100,000 that produces $5000 a year. You turned it upside down. This sounds like the veg. A Matic I didn’t. OK, he turned it upside down. It produces the donors, is giving you the $5000 a year every every year, say, for five years or 10 years. And that is going to be treated as if it were the product of an endowment that is yet to be created. So this donor has you in their will already say, for $100,000 they’re pretty comfortable giving you $5000 a year. They’ve been doing that without even being asked for him. It was maybe for general purpose.

[00:21:51.00] spk_3:
But they’re not comfortable giving you the $100,000 that’s right during their life, or at least at this point

[00:22:04.16] spk_4:
in their life. But their pattern of giving is such that an annual giver already and they care about the organization. So at the end of the rope, the end of the chain of living and giving is that $100,000? So why

[00:22:10.56] spk_3:
just come a little closer to the mic?

[00:22:14.46] spk_4:
Okay, thank you. So who is to say that getting that $5000 every year and then getting the $100,000 later where the program becomes self sustaining? Who’s to say that that’s not just a valuable as getting the $100,000 up front

[00:22:28.33] spk_3:
right? Okay,

[00:22:29.16] spk_4:
that’s a virtual endowment. And then with when the donor passes away, the virtual endowment essentially becomes a true and down

[00:22:53.82] spk_3:
okay. Or if they have a life event that changes their circumstances and they’re able to fund their endowment fully or maybe even half of some, you know, big Big bump while they’re living, that’s great. But in the meantime, they’re giving you what you would have spent from the endowment anyway. Brilliant. It’s very simple. Not too many organizations do this, though. I think

[00:22:56.53] spk_4:
it They don’t do that often because they’re focused on having a separate annual campaign, and they’re on to maintain that base of annual donors. And they have a whole maybe either they have a whole separate division of department and a department head who focuses on annual giving and another department that focuses on major giving it another one that focuses on plan giving. And they just they don’t connect up. And they have a lot of issues about who owns the donor and speak to the donor. So and what are you doing speaking to that donor there, Not a plan giving prospect,

[00:23:44.78] spk_3:
right? So if this this donor that you’re describing ah doesn’t meet the major gift level because here she can’t afford the $100,000 outright, then they’ll go to the Maybe they’ll drop to the or be shifted over to the annual giving team or something, but they won’t think of it as a virtual endowment. They’ll just think of it is we get $5000 a year from this person, but they’re not thinking longer term. And it’s usually when that annual fund silo

[00:24:03.46] spk_4:
in the Matrix that the preferred gift in the Matrix matrix general unrestricted gifts because we know how to spend your money better than you do right, and we need it to keep our operations go.

[00:24:12.49] spk_3:
So they’re not thinking about devoting it to a purpose that might later be endowed fully. That’s right. Later in the person’s life or at their data.

[00:24:18.83] spk_4:
And if if the purpose is central to the organization, if they had that endowment and they could do anything they wanted with it, they would most likely be funding those kind of programmes anyway.

[00:24:38.89] spk_3:
Yeah, okay. Okay. Killer APS. Okay, before we get to the killer APS ah, two and three just make clear why they’re called killer APS.

[00:25:08.44] spk_4:
They’re called killer APS because, like with any kind of technology, when new technology comes on, it just sort of wipes out everything that’s come before it thes when you employ the zaps and you work with them with donors, they achieve gifts that are so much greater. The donor you were talking about who was the $5000 donor now becomes a major donor because they’re giving $5000 a year and they have $100,000 on the books. So that could be, you know, a $200,000 down or even a much larger donor. It just changes the way you think about how you how you work. You really don’t want to go back to living in that silo Once you’ve been able to span plan major on annual giving through one of these per highly personalized gifts. They really work amazingly well.

[00:25:30.44] spk_3:
Excellent. Okay, we’re gonna take a little paws much more with Steve Myers coming up. We’re gonna talk about the philanthropic mortgage and step up GIF, ts and how your solicitations are gonna change.

[00:27:01.64] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software in the new year. Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. Meaning it’s built for you. For our community. Their customer service is excellent. So you know you’ve got backup if you need it. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take 24 Must have to start your plan giving in 2020. I hope that if you’re not already kicked off with plan giving, you’re not already deep into it. That 2020 is gonna be the year you get started. I have four things that I believe you need in place before you can get started there. Simple. But you gotta have some things lined up. Thio have ah decent chance of success of this at your inaugural planned giving program. And the first of these is you have to be at least five years old so that donors are confident that your organization will live beyond them. So I like to see at least those five years of history and for the other four must have for the other three must have of the four. Check out the video. It’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Steak, too. Now, back to personalized philanthropy. Our second entry in the Innovators, Siri’s

[00:27:11.82] spk_3:
Steve Myers never went anywhere. Took a couple sips of water. Thank you for your indulgence. Let’s talk about another killer app. The philanthropic mortgage. What you got going on there? The idea of

[00:27:47.84] spk_4:
the philanthropic mortgage seems so intuitive, but it’s something that we would never be able to think about in a highly silent and channeled environment that they call the fundraising matrix. Yeah, philanthropic mortgage. When you when you buy a house, you don’t have to pay for it in full before you move into it. You’re not. You create a mortgage. This mortgage you are paying you’re making like one payment and the payment goes partly for interests, and the other part of it goes to build equity in your in your home bills Equity principle? Yeah, yeah, building, building

[00:27:50.63] spk_3:
prints and build equity. But basically,

[00:28:50.05] spk_4:
the idea here is that you’re it’s just same ideas wth e the virtual endowment. A person can make a gift of that spending rate for the for the scholarship that they’d like to have. And so the scholarship can start up right away and then in the virtual endemic, they’re going to make slight, sort of like a balloon payment at the end of their life. They’re gonna pay it off through their request. But in the idea of a philanthropic mortgage, you can pay more than just the quote unquote interest. You could also pay a little more than the spending rate. The operating annual cost of that on that little bit extra goes to creating and building equity in your endowment fund. Beautiful. So over years over time, you could build the equity in your fund and your program can begin right away. So if you’re talking about a scholarship or a professorial chair, you get to meet that incumbent. You get to get the letters from them. You get to go and play an active part and have a relationship with the organization of the people that

[00:28:57.32] spk_3:
you’re supporting. So going back to our hypothetical before maybe that donor is giving $10,000 a year or 7500 year. 5000 is the spend rate. And then the surplus goes to start building up that endowment, which will be fully funded at some balloon payment with some balloon payment in future. That’s exactly what all right, all

[00:29:37.91] spk_4:
right. There’s an even more interesting example that relates to this up to a donor who’s maybe a little bit older and they’re going to have to. And they have an IRA Ira now that that the permanent ah charitable rollover is in effect, right? We know that it’s gonna happen all the time. We want to wait to the end of the year, and guests wait to the last minute so we could make these gifts whenever we want to. So that means if you’re working with the donor who is going to be 70 and 1/2 in the next couple of years, they’re going to start taking money out on a regular basis

[00:29:42.18] spk_3:
right that required minimum distribution

[00:30:34.95] spk_4:
wired to do that. And let’s say that they don’t need it to live. Then that could become, ah, part of the, you know, both part of the virtual endowment, and it can also be part of the little extra that they might have. So working with a donor who for the first couple of years is just paying the spending right to create a post doctor old chair in computer science because he loves that. But towards the end of the schedule, he’s going to reach the age of 17 and 1/2. He’s going to get a huge for him, at least required minimum distribution. That’s going to be his balloon payment, right? So he’s gonna pay the regular amount. And then the last year, he’s gonna receive a much larger amount from his IRA. And he’s gonna add that complete his the endowment that he writes for the post doctoral fellowship in his parent’s names.

[00:31:09.30] spk_3:
I’d like to think of the IRA now, especially because of the rollover is well, it’s actually a qualified charitable distribution, but everybody knows there’s a roll over because that’s now permanent. We might start to see, You know, Ira’s sort of become I have many foundation You can do your charitable giving through your i. R a. Have a count toward this required minimum distribution, which for a lot of people, is more than they want or need. And then you’re not You’re not text on it. You avoid the federal income tax on that, that distribution or that gift to, ah, the charity.

[00:31:22.88] spk_4:
So that only doesn’t have a value as a transaction. Because each time, as you pointed out, you don’t have to pay tax on the money that you’re giving away. You’ll never taxed on it. Essentially, you can use it strategically to grow your on pay the spending rate and the operating costs for your program. So we’re gonna begin right away,

[00:31:35.82] spk_3:
transformational and transactions. What? It’s okay. We agree. It’s not a hostile environment. You think you’re walking into a hostile environment? Yeah. Okay. Um, your final killer app is, uh, step up gift sort of a hybrid. Talk about talk about to step up.

[00:33:27.82] spk_4:
It’s a hybrid that person might be able to Ah, um this is one of those gifts that people wouldn’t think about because they would think that I could never have a professorial chair, at least not during my lifetime, because the professorial chair cost of 1,000,000 or $2 million that’s gonna be more than likely that will be in my estate. But I can’t really find a way to access that money now, however I can. I do have that $5000 that I’ve been giving every year for general purposes, and I could continue to do that for a number of years so I could start off by funding that scholarship we talked about earlier, that $100,000 scholarship that cost $5000 a year. So during my lifetime with Simon older donor, I could have that masters or other scholarship that could begin right now and then upon my death, um, the funds from my estate bequest for my estate could step up that endowment to the 1,000,000 or $2 million level. So basically my gift would step up from a master scholarship or a doctoral scholarship or a postdoctoral scholar ship all the way up to a professorial chair through my estate. Okay. And my plan would be put together so that the totality of my plane would be understood by both myself and by the charity that I’m working with from the very beginnings, right? This is a comprehensive that truly is a transformational give. It transforms from an annual gift to a major scholarship gift and to really a very substantial estate gift in there, all tied together around the same purpose, even though there are separate gifts that function for different purposes along the way. And then ultimately they all go for the same purpose.

[00:33:42.99] spk_3:
How do the killer APS and the smashing of the Matrix and the creation of a personalized philanthropy? How do these all come together to change our solicitations?

[00:35:39.14] spk_4:
That’s really a good question. I think it changes the way. First of all, it it changes the way that you think If you go back to the back to the movie The Matrix, when people see The Matrix, they sort of acquire these magical powers that could kind of see around corners and they can fly. They can defy the laws of physics because they understand the world in a in a way that was different in the way they understood it before. So if you are uh, if your practice becomes one of personalized philanthropy, you’re kind of working as an enlightened generalised. You have all the gifts, all the building blocks of philanthropy that you can bring to bear on each person wherever they are, and that’s going to change the nature of your work. You’re going to be basically sitting on the same side of the table as the donor, really an ally, ah, force to help them achieve what they want to and realize what’s what’s possible that they never would have thought was possible before by connecting all these small, modest gifts that they could make during their lifetime with the larger gifts that they could make through their estate, essentially changing the whole value change so the value can come out when they want it to come out and achieve that impact and begin to change society now. So that means that instead of just kind of being a hit and run kind of fundraiser like the annual fund people come in, I’d like to get the same thing I got last year, maybe a little bit more, and then move on to something else. Instead, you’re connected with the stoner through time. You’re not just looking at them at a point on the donor pyramid, you’re looking at their whole lifetime value as a donor and that that changes everything. The changes, the process for developing a personalized gift is much different. Thin. The solicitation of a typical asked for a regular

[00:35:59.12] spk_3:
Don’t you’re so stations. There’s gonna be more questioning and what’s important to you and what what brings you joy around the work that we do and right and more of a process than a discreet sit down. And the loser is the one who talks first after the ask is made. And then in four days there’s a follow up phone call. What are your thoughts about what we pitched very different.

[00:36:12.97] spk_4:
It’s it’s really completely, utterly.

[00:36:13.97] spk_3:
So what are some of the things that you ask about in your solicitation meetings? Well, it’s not

[00:36:25.93] spk_4:
that I ask any pursuit different questions than other fundraisers would. Just when I’m when I’m my thinking is different. I’m listening. I’m listening in a different way. And, uh

[00:36:30.34] spk_3:
So what are you doing? Let us into that neo brain. Okay, Well, what are you doing? What I’m trying

[00:37:25.54] spk_4:
to do is, I’m trying to discover what what matters to them and what I have that other fundraisers don’t have is that I have these killer APs that can connect to where the donor is so that if a donor has a habit of giving annually, I couldn’t begin to think about how might they have a greater impact by connecting all those gifts that they’re doing? If they gave for the last 10 years, $5000 a year? Chances are pretty good that they won’t be offended if we talk about. If you continue your pattern of giving, you could have a whole different kind of impact than you. Then you were having beef here, so it’s It’s a different, different tools and technology that I could use. I don’t have to sell them the math building when there are really more interested in the arts and music program. I could start with where with where they with where they’re at. Okay, so that that makes all the difference,

[00:37:32.33] spk_3:
right? Thanks for letting us into that head. We wanna when I want to be there, explicitly, even though we’re there for the hour. But it’s

[00:37:53.00] spk_4:
a good head to Bay because you you’re not just talking about donor centric donor focused giving. When you get this information, you can use it so that if a donor is ah, if they may already have included you in their estate plans, thanks a lot of donors they will that will do that without even being asked. That’s that’s where they begin. So you know that there’s going to be endowment. Possible atT. The end. Now you could begin to talk with them about connecting the current giving so that the impact of that future gift can start. Now.

[00:38:09.42] spk_3:
We have just about two minutes before break, and in those couple minutes I want you to flush out something. You talk in the book about the four Children from the Passover Seder? Yeah, just a couple minutes. How do they figure into this? The four Children who are they and what’s in there

[00:38:24.21] spk_4:
in the past, over in the past, over service. If this is part of the service that gets recited every year, so people know these names that might be familiar with him, so you could

[00:38:32.26] spk_3:
well, they think that we’re going to Passover seders. I’ve only been to one in my life, and I don’t remember the four Children.

[00:39:36.73] spk_4:
So the four Children, the Seder, are the wise, the wicked, the simple and the one who doesn’t know how to ask. So just imagine that these people have grown up and become donors and each one of them in the past, over service. The idea is to try to reach each individual, each type of Children of child where they are, um, and begin with what they are, who they are at, relate to them as individuals. Ah, and then you build out, you build out from that. So the four Children who begin to think about them as donors, you begin to focus on ah, where they’re at. If they’re wise, they might give it. That might be the kind of person who gives every year without being asked if they’re wicked. They might, uh, wicked is not. Ah, it’s not a bad term. In this case, it’s a kind of a positive thing because the person would be discerning very smart. They might have an interest in taking care of their loved ones as well. The donor, who is simple, just might begin with a bequest because as the seeds were planted before them. They will continue to plant the seeds for the future. And the donor who doesn’t have to know how to ask, is the one who has a charitable inclination but doesn’t know how to scratch that itch. So they’re the most fun to work with the ball.

[00:39:55.88] spk_3:
Beautiful. That’s great story. I kind of wish we’d ended with that, but we’re not anything but we’ll have a good ending anyway. Let’s go out for a break when we come back. Stephen, I’m gonna keep talking, talking a little about counting all these new gifts that you’re gonna be getting. Stay with us

[00:40:39.51] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation, you’ve got the best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and other media, and that’s how you get great coverage when it matters. Because you’ve got existing relationships. There are turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for personalized philanthropy.

[00:40:59.41] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, we’re gonna have lots of new gifts coming in, and you’re pretty. You’re pretty generous about counting. You don’t seem very generous. Don’t say that in the book, but it’s between between the lines you want. You want to give as much credit as possible? Not Not surprising. Really? Um, yes. Yes, you do. Um, let’s talk about, say, I’m gonna hash. We break this down So we look at the killer APS and how they would be counted or what? You’re what? You’re counting philosophy. Generally. Let’s start there.

[00:41:11.01] spk_4:
Okay. Uh, the prime directive for me in counting is don’t just count one number.

[00:41:18.61] spk_3:
Yes. You said that explicitly. The book? Yeah.

[00:41:32.18] spk_4:
Everything in our lives. It’s the sort of damage, please. Hanging over the head of every fund raiser, its financial resource development. And, um, how much did you raise? You have to How much did you raise? What did you raise? And if

[00:41:35.53] spk_2:
you don’t have

[00:42:56.62] spk_4:
an answer for that, someone else will. It’ll be a new accounting formula financial formula that tells what the present value is of all the gifts that came in. And of course, the president value doesn’t include bequests or request expect expectancies. It doesn’t include the kind of cultivation in the activities that you d’oh. It reduces everything that comes out of the system that doesn’t not have a present value. Yeah, and as fundraisers know, there’s a lot of things that we do that that would be considered his fundraising achievements that normally don’t count. So we wanna have a way of describing what it is that we do that goes along with how we feel about what fundraising achievement actually is. So when I say don’t count just one number, what we’re really saying is there is one number that you have to be aware of it. Everybody has to know that. But there’s a complement of that one number, and it’s a multi dimensional set of numbers that can help us to measure our own effectiveness and convey to the people that we are working with and for what all this fundraising has been about. And really, there are three kinds of gifts that we we like to count outright gifts that count 100% gifts that there would be like Category one gifts,

[00:42:58.32] spk_3:
cash and cash equivalents. Call those the category one cash

[00:43:04.90] spk_4:
cash equivalents that would include pledges that air like payable over a couple of years.

[00:43:06.84] spk_3:
Legally binding. I get legally binding pledge.

[00:43:51.20] spk_4:
It’s legally binding. Pledge is okay, and legally binding pledges could include pledges that are payable over 12 or three years but also pledges for older donors that are going to be considered as bookable or irrevocable from their estates. That’s another type of ah, gift that would count in this cash or cash equivalents. The second category is the irrevocable gifts that we we raised the charitable remainder trust and gift annuities and part of the value of them would count in that one number, and the rest of the wood would not count until they were later received. And the third category is revocable gifts or or bequests that are expected but that have not yet been received.

[00:43:54.38] spk_3:
And they’re not legally binding.

[00:43:55.79] spk_4:
And they’re not. And they’re not legally because

[00:43:57.51] spk_3:
there are ways of making a bequest legally binding. If the person signed a contract to buying their estate, um, testamentary contract. Okay, so

[00:44:14.13] spk_4:
this, uh, this journey towards personalized philanthropy really began for me with this question of what am I doing here? What?

[00:44:14.85] spk_3:
I just asked that question about 1/2 an hour. Just asked. That’s a

[00:44:40.24] spk_4:
really good question. You should always be asking, What am I doing here? And if you’re on task, you’re doing something that relates to one of those kinds of gifts. You’re cultivating a donor for a future gift your culture. Get cultivating them for a gift that can provide income to them now and a gift to you later. And you’re also cultivating the firm, a gift that they could make now and that you can have now that could be both cash or it can be assets other other than cash. And that’s how you would evaluate what you’re doing in kind of a multi disciplinary way.

[00:44:49.22] spk_1:
How do you

[00:44:57.49] spk_3:
like toe? Give credit to fundraisers for activities that aren’t quantifiable, you know, advancements in a relationship. But the person didn’t increase their giving this year or pledged to in the future. You know all those activities that meaningful but non quantifiable,

[00:45:09.68] spk_4:
right? Yeah. You want to

[00:45:10.65] spk_3:
How do we help fundraisers be recognised? Well,

[00:45:42.77] spk_4:
you know, we develop metrics out of these out of these out of activities, and you try to figure out the ones that are going to be important for you, and you embrace the ones that are important for you now sometimes, um, people go way overboard on this. There was one fundraiser that I know who travels around a lot to meet with donors. And his supervisor wanted to him to quantify, um, how much, um, money per per mile he was raising. He said, Oh, no, no,

[00:45:46.45] spk_3:
I won’t do that on.

[00:45:48.10] spk_4:
He was senior enough that he was able to avoid that in another system. They wanted to know. What is this fundraiser doing? Every 15 minutes? It’s almost

[00:45:56.80] spk_3:
Oh, my God, It’s like law firms.

[00:45:57.84] spk_4:
Like a lot

[00:46:11.12] spk_3:
of booking for way. I used to book a six minute increments. All right, we just have about a minute, lad. We don’t want to do right. We do that. That’s not to do we have about a minute left? Leave us with some things that we should be measuring to give credit to fundraisers. Some examples of what you measure you like to measure

[00:46:39.89] spk_4:
well, when you, when you do these blended gifts with blended gifts come from a combination of current and future gifts. So you want to measure the gifts, all of their dimensionality, so that you could compare them to the single present value along with all the value that they’re going to bring to the organization beginning right now. So if you’re going back to the person that we were speaking of before, go

[00:46:40.25] spk_3:
ahead, you have to wrap it up.

[00:46:41.22] spk_4:
Okay, Well, uh, their gift is gonna have an immediate impact, and it’s gonna grow and scale up over time. And that’s what you want to try to achieve that, That that’s the grail of fundraising.

[00:47:12.14] spk_3:
And that’s if you want to track yet. Okay, we have to leave it there. Steve Myers, vice president, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science. You’ll find him on Twitter at Steven Myers. 863 The book. Get the book. It’s personalized. Philanthropy crashed the fundraising metrics. It’s at Amazon, and it’s also a charity channel, which is the publisher

[00:47:59.44] spk_2:
next week. Our innovators, Siri’s continues with leading systems change. What did I say earlier in the show that next week would not be innovators? Siri’s? That was a mistake that definitely is the innovative Siri’s third entry, and it’ll be alive. Finally, live innovators. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com It’s still occurs to me. I need an intern to blame for these mistakes. It’s it’s unbelievable. By Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? So if you know anybody who wants to be a blamed in turn in the future, resume to tony at 20 martignetti dot com and also by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Our creative producer is

[00:49:04.47] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lieber, which is the line producer thief shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Great voice just cracked talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, Huh?

Nonprofit Radio for January 10, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Happy New Year. I

[00:01:14.54] spk_2:
hope you enjoyed enormous amounts of time and good fun with family and friends. Lots of time off during the holidays. I hope you enjoyed the hell out of them. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize. A phobia if you missed our first show in the innovators Siris de colonizing wealth You can’t always kick off a series with a live guest. Edgard Villanueva’s book De Colonizing Wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy that originally aired November 30th 2018 on Tony’s Take two planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is our first guest in The Innovators, Siri’s Edgar Villanueva.

[00:01:46.97] spk_1:
That’s my great

[00:01:47.77] spk_3:
pleasure to welcome to the studio. Edgar Villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of Native Americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andress Family Fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable

[00:02:04.64] spk_1:
youth. He’s an instructor

[00:02:15.34] spk_3:
with the grantmaking School at Grand Valley State University and served as vice president of programs and advocacy at the Shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s

[00:02:15.51] spk_1:
held leadership roles at Kate Be. Reynolds Charitable Trust in North Carolina and Marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle.

[00:02:26.38] spk_3:
Edgar is an enrolled member of the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and

[00:02:33.05] spk_1:
at Villanueva Edgar and welcome to Studio.

[00:02:34.17] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:35.68] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month. Was October October 16th. Yes, all right.

[00:02:42.22] spk_3:
And you just had a very nice interview with The New York Times. Yes. Congratulations. On that day, that’s prep, prep, prep you for non profit radio,

[00:02:49.46] spk_4:
right? Right. I’m ready.

[00:02:50.80] spk_1:
All your all your media appearances

[00:02:52.77] spk_3:
to date have brought you to this moment, right? So that it’s all culminated here.

[00:02:57.61] spk_5:
Um,

[00:02:58.74] spk_1:
I promised listeners. Footnote one

[00:03:31.05] spk_3:
Footnote 12 Aah! Hyper Garg, Alice, the Asia. Of course, anybody listens to show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease, every single show. But in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle issue Asia. So this is the first time over 400 shows that thea that the guest unknowingly has ah, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do. That every single show. Um, you don’t know that

[00:03:32.16] spk_4:
I didn’t.

[00:03:32.55] spk_3:
Not listening to non profit radio. It’s It’s

[00:03:45.58] spk_1:
your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re You’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. No

[00:03:45.68] spk_4:
one told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way,

[00:03:52.61] spk_1:
but that’s not

[00:04:00.05] spk_3:
all so bad. Getting closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate. with it. Um, I

[00:04:00.14] spk_1:
used to call myself the Charlie

[00:04:06.38] spk_3:
Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer. Um,

[00:04:08.83] spk_1:
because you talk about, ah,

[00:04:16.90] spk_3:
colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like, those are bad things.

[00:04:18.64] spk_4:
Yes, they are. Bad thing.

[00:04:20.19] spk_3:
Okay. What? Ah, what is that? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:26.84] spk_1:
so many of

[00:04:41.75] spk_4:
us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? Um, you know, I have this firewall that were completely disconnected from Wall Street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for that, the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways, not in

[00:05:01.97] spk_3:
the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:05.18] spk_4:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated? Um, you know, especially I’m from the South, North Carolina. We’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was a legacy of slavery and stolen lands that that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:34.94] spk_3:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native Americans.

[00:05:40.29] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:05:47.79] spk_4:
So, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in North Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparent’s generation, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still what We’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are arias, resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to soft today. As a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:34.10] spk_3:
You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Um, now you’re a member of the Lumbee tribe. North Carolina. That’s right. Robertson County, North Carolina. Which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west, I think of of Robertson County lumber. So the Lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the love bees and lumber turn the town. That’s right. Name for Lum bees,

[00:07:06.91] spk_4:
Right. So lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first, and so

[00:07:12.25] spk_1:
certainly the river came from. The name of the river came, right, Right. River’s been

[00:07:22.29] spk_4:
there much longer. Okay? Yes. So we’re, you know, hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal North Carolina that I came together to form the Lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:42.04] spk_3:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to ah, Native Americans as the as the original philanthropist, but that struck me a lot. I think. You You say you say that the end of the at the end of books, right where I caught it. Um, we have, like, a minute 1/2 or so before a break. So just we’re introducing this. We got playing time together. Wealth, you say, divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:07:53.94] spk_4:
So the accumulation of wealth so money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, I say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed on the acts that could result as as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what? That’s what has calls the Harmon itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done.

[00:08:36.03] spk_3:
You’ve got 7/16 steps to that. The second half of your book. All right, We’ll take our first break.

[00:09:08.03] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new c p A. A firm whose service is excellent, who provides clear direction and timetables and is easy to work with. And you know where you know a partner There, There where? You know, a partner you touch to talk to him. He’ll tell you honestly whether they can help you in the new year. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to de colonizing wealth.

[00:09:17.69] spk_3:
Now back to Naghani Onishi! That is your Indian name. Did I by any chance, say that correctly?

[00:09:20.61] spk_4:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my Ojibwe these days.

[00:09:33.91] spk_1:
You don’t know your boy That sounds that is your Indian name. Yes. Uh, leading bird. Tell the story of how

[00:09:34.78] spk_3:
you got that name. We’ll come back to you. Don’t. I will come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t think this is a good story. How you got that name?

[00:11:01.71] spk_4:
So my tribe, the Lumbee Tribal North Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? That’s right. So But when I when I was working in North Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in North Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh, North Carolina. And so But I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and Thio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, If you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um And so I met with this guy in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado, where this this Native Health Conference. So it was all, ah, tell the story in the book is quite, um, hilarious and in many ways let the Indian of our session where I was feeling excited about, you know, the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I, you know, had such colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native named Johnny Benesch A which means leading bird. So I was very honored. And my first thought was, What kind of bird, right? Am I a little Tweety bird or in my mighty eagle Republicans? Right. Birds are vest. So, um, he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V formation. Um, And as I when I left, I studied of these birds and they’re

[00:11:22.06] spk_3:
the leading bird I’m deleting. There is leading Berg.

[00:12:02.84] spk_4:
I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when I when I learned these characteristics, I just felt really I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life. And I think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:19.17] spk_3:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered. They’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other. But they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they say, I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they could be injured, right?

[00:12:41.69] spk_4:
It’s there. It’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, GPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more, but I think when they’re when someone is down are you know there’s an injury or whatever may happen? They there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our Inter related, you know, being inter related

[00:13:19.31] spk_3:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is this is an indigenous belief that we are all related. And that’s what it makes me think of the birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other?

[00:13:35.43] spk_4:
Yes. Oh, there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, ah, you know, we are We are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset, or world view from sort of the American individualistic type of mindset. Um, we also have connected to that viewpoint is on this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things all of the decisions and that we’re making today are gonna impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family. But also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work.

[00:14:47.45] spk_3:
And you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility. For as you said, we’re thriving and suffering together. Um, what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:15:03.48] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think

[00:15:04.78] spk_3:
Are we all responsible?

[00:15:18.54] spk_4:
We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks we, you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes,

[00:15:22.47] spk_3:
like the natural path of progress. Absolutely Way. It’s learned,

[00:15:59.68] spk_4:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher Columbus, for example. And so but the realities are that colonization, um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we as as the people have not come to terms with we. Actually, we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. S o the dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, I refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies. As as a nation, they show up in our policies are systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power,

[00:16:27.93] spk_3:
least naturally, to your point about us, them organizations

[00:17:12.06] spk_4:
Absolutely. So you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate you know, the dynamics of colonization. Because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. Ah, would you look at, um asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety net and vulnerable communities on when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend. Did you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening? Because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundations said on $800 billion of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, healthcare, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the RS Thio payout 5% of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on Lee, a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community

[00:18:18.61] spk_3:
Let’s assume it’s I know there are a lot of foundations that use that 5% minimum as their maximum, so that 05% of that would be $40 billion. So the counter is bad, but there’s $40 billion coming each year. Could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And, you know, we’re trying to preserve this, uh, this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were tryingto no, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say

[00:18:29.13] spk_4:
right, right? And,

[00:18:30.24] spk_1:
you know, I

[00:19:43.06] spk_4:
think that I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5% when Congress had acted that 5% rule, um, it actually began at 6% I believe in 1974 and then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy, the wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break. And so that that, uh, I rs minimum payout of 5% That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants. And so you know, So it is sort of, ah, the other thing to explore if you are with a 95% that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and instructed extractive industries that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation.

[00:20:14.59] spk_3:
Yes, you make the point often, uh, that often right, those investments are in our in industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission, and in fact, funding. Um, the, uh there’s something else that there’s your estimate, Thea. The way the money is. All right. Well, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s

[00:20:14.96] spk_1:
there’s a lot

[00:20:31.41] spk_3:
that organizations congee gained by hiring people of color. Indigenous people. What? Ah, and very few. Your rare exception. Um, working in found eight doing foundation work. What’s the make explicit? Those, uh, those advantages.

[00:20:57.22] spk_4:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely, um, exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 Native Americans that I could find. We kind of found each other. What year was that? This was in 2005. That’s along. And we are now. Ah, there’s about 25 of us now. The last time I counted. So

[00:20:57.65] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:20:57.85] spk_4:
there’s there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations. And I think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:10.23] spk_1:
and not only

[00:21:10.59] spk_3:
foundations but non profits. NGOs doing the groundwork, absolutely foundations of the funders on Dove course. Some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but But for the nonprofits doing the day to day work A CZ well represent the communities that you’re

[00:21:25.93] spk_4:
absolutely. It kind of makes sense right and felt, You know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staffs. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit our foundation, too tohave folks that work there, who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, um, you know about the problem in a different way is gonna create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies that that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes on board meetings where decisions were being made and always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room. And I hear these decisions are these conversations, and I’m thinking like, Oh, my God, like you know, this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother mar my family that’s still living in poverty. Decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah,

[00:22:58.01] spk_3:
yeah. Um, and ah, I I thought of what I was gonna ask you about. Just comment on the foundation wise, we do see some foundation saying that they’re gonna spend down their assets. Um, I wouldn’t say it’s, ah, needle moving. But you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. Um, was Paul Allen was it? Ah, not pull out the Microsoft. Uh, I think the Microsoft founder co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was Paul Allen. Okay, um, I was thinking of Steve Allen to come. You’ll come. That’s why I thought No, it wasn’t him, but was Paul Allen. I think his foundation’s one, But

[00:23:17.21] spk_1:
there are some. So we do

[00:23:20.24] spk_3:
hear some glimmers. Ah, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle.

[00:23:24.27] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I mean, I think deciding to spend down is ah is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now if we actually release the funds or

[00:23:34.56] spk_1:
even if

[00:24:22.80] spk_4:
you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um, there there’s a lot of amazing work happening. Um, right now that is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh, the 5% that is being invested only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so I think, you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards the foundation should think about. What is the value of you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like, what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways, it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of, you know, um, way of thinking.

[00:24:36.81] spk_3:
If this was CNN right now, I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times have to work on that. A talking alternative we need. We need video capture and screens and everything in your video in your interview with David Bernstein, New York Times. Uh, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color, philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:24:54.05] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:25:49.89] spk_4:
You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail. Um, we hurt the hardest. And, uh, but there’s just something so magical about him. And since a private I have about my community because we’re so resilient, like, regardless of, um, you know, all of the trauma of the colonization the, um, you know, genocide, stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. And so there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would if I weren’t native. I will be interested to know, Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the front lines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom. And you know often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, are see strategies. Or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up. And I’m like, Wow, we’ve been doing that are in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:08.00] spk_3:
Is there still a Lumbee community in Robson Robson County?

[00:26:11.69] spk_4:
Yes, there are. There are about 60,000 enroll members and a Lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County.

[00:26:23.86] spk_3:
Okay, Now have in North Carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in. Can I be in a number?

[00:26:25.25] spk_4:
You know, we were very inclusive. We we’ll take will adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. T officially enrolled.

[00:26:34.75] spk_1:
That’s a stretch

[00:26:35.59] spk_3:
for an Italian American with North Carolina license plate on driver’s license. All right, um,

[00:26:42.91] spk_1:
you Ah, you talk about,

[00:27:23.48] spk_3:
um you know, I guess. I mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out. Ah, you know, piecemeal. Um, the the imbalance. You know, the grant, even the even the word, you know, the granting right. It’s like some, uh, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When, uh, your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s It’s it’s a It’s a right equally held by all.

[00:27:27.54] spk_4:
Yet, you know, I think power and money a lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right and equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from lens of equality. So we’re gonna have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat.

[00:28:02.24] spk_3:
So that’s not gonna happen,

[00:28:03.24] spk_1:
you know, that’s that’s highly unlikely.

[00:28:06.11] spk_3:
Like infant is really small. Unlikely.

[00:28:15.58] spk_4:
You know, it’s a hard thing for people thio to think about it, especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I’m I have less than I’ve had So, um, but, you know, we II want to think about this abundance mind frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging. There’s who have not been privileged by that.

[00:28:41.80] spk_3:
So I love that you. You approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break.

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software

[00:28:45.74] spk_1:
in the new

[00:30:19.28] spk_2:
year Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. It’s built for you. Their customer service is excellent, so they’ll take care of you and they have a free 60 day trial. You get that on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin. Now, time for Tony’s Take two four must have to start your planned giving in 2020 um, the video at tony-martignetti dot com has four things that you need to have in place for you to kick off. Planned giving in 2020. I’ll be more than happy to give you one right here and then for the video for the other three. You got to go to the video. Um, you have to be at least five years old. People have to be confident that your organization is going to live longer than them because they’re gonna be including you in their estate plan. Most likely there will. And they need to know that you’re gonna survive them so that there could be a gift for your organization when they die. So in order to have that confidence or for your donors to feel that confidence about your longevity, I like to see at least five years of history in the organization and for the other three, Um, check the video, and that is at tony-martignetti. Dotcom four must have to start your plan giving in 2020. That is Tony’s Take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Our first entry in the innovators. Siri’s.

[00:30:25.90] spk_3:
Now I wanna go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar Villanueva.

[00:30:30.47] spk_1:
See, I thought

[00:30:31.29] spk_3:
he would pronounce his name. Edgar and I was wrong. And But that’s that’s why I said Edgar.

[00:30:38.00] spk_1:
But it’s Edgar Edgar Edgar Villanueva and de colonizing

[00:30:40.03] spk_3:
wealth. Welcome back, you two go for

[00:30:42.08] spk_4:
Thanks for having me. Okay?

[00:30:43.29] spk_1:
Just will be here. Yes. Yeah. You haven’t done anything that

[00:30:46.79] spk_3:
would lead me to shut your mic off. Um, it hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened.

[00:30:51.74] spk_1:
So let’s let’s start getting ah positive, Okay.

[00:31:03.37] spk_3:
You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, and, uh, I thought you came up, like five short. I mean that we have only 12 status if

[00:31:08.21] spk_1:
you want to. If you want to share power, you’re gonna have to

[00:31:16.07] spk_3:
have you got to step it up with 12 steps or or even 15. You have more than the colonizer, but but

[00:31:16.83] spk_1:
the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical.

[00:31:30.80] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s Ah, there’s ah, quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on

[00:31:35.14] spk_3:
is a prime number. Got that event right? That’s that’s I don’t know why.

[00:31:40.12] spk_4:
So, you know, But I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no ah, linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:32:04.50] spk_3:
lets them out for us. Just list all seven and then we’ll talk about

[00:32:07.26] spk_4:
I’m sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair.

[00:32:15.64] spk_5:
Okay. Um,

[00:32:16.61] spk_1:
so you’ve been thinking

[00:32:17.17] spk_3:
about this for a while in this? Uh, I just did. I admire the I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:32:51.25] spk_4:
Yes. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to, uh, just re ground myself in my values and, um and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and in philanthropy, who were, I think of very four thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country in to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this? Um And then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is, ah, method that’s used in schools. And I’m in the criminal justice system to help people deal with with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ah, model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:33:56.08] spk_3:
I saw ah grieving Ah, you say everybody I mean, because of our inter relatedness, where we all need to grieve, including people of color indigenous, those who have been oppressed.

[00:34:48.73] spk_4:
Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm in the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people? And, you know, I think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that Ah, that colonization and the idea of white supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s, ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book, um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being American. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and it feel connected to that in some way.

[00:35:21.33] spk_3:
Um and, um, the ah, the thing you talk about two is, uh, the orphans orphans. You say that? Ah, those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans? How’s that?

[00:36:55.80] spk_4:
I call them orphans. This is a term Moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from, given up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe thio this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that, there’s been a lost of sort of that that mother country for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know I’m not anti American, let me be very clear about that This is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud, TB, a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, um, you know, and and and not, um, that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your green appearance or from, or the language. They spoke with the culture they have. Um, and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities, that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. And if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You

[00:36:56.09] spk_1:
said a few

[00:36:56.41] spk_3:
minutes ago that white supremacy is not a riel. Not really. All right,

[00:37:00.09] spk_6:
Well,

[00:37:05.06] spk_3:
why why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really

[00:37:07.87] spk_4:
Well Well, the idea that that ah, you know, a certain group of people white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this wasn’t on ideology that was created. Um, in order, Thio be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been, you know, an idea that is not really, but we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, I was taught that, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if I were to behave or address or act, I’m in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was gonna be, ah, better thing for me. And so we know that the idea white supremacy is you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief.

[00:38:08.65] spk_3:
All right, Um and you’re you also encourage non profits and teams toe have ah, grieving space we’re talking about. We’re talking about grieve. We have about a minute before break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:38:23.18] spk_4:
Yes. So you know, these these steps are personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think, especially those of us working in the non profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave space. Space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into Philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities,

[00:39:06.61] spk_3:
the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But de colonizing wealth dot com That’s where you go. So I gotta take this break.

[00:39:34.75] spk_1:
Tell us, Start with the video at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant porting. You talk to them, have them

[00:39:36.36] spk_3:
watch the video and if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay.

[00:39:44.49] spk_1:
Tony, that m a

[00:39:53.06] spk_3:
slash now back to Edgar Edgar Villanueva. See, I practiced saying Edgard because I just assumed on. I thought, now I’m sure he uses Edgar, just

[00:39:57.42] spk_4:
like editor Allan Poe.

[00:39:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, I know, I know. I understand. That’s the, uh, uh, your name

[00:40:11.56] spk_3:
your Taliban ass anyway, And I I, uh I assumed we know what makes you know what happens when you make assume, make an ass of you and me, uh, so Okay,

[00:40:15.26] spk_5:
uh, Edgar, um, I

[00:40:15.37] spk_1:
like the idea

[00:40:30.21] spk_3:
of the grieving space. You know, acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds. 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how oppressive is that?

[00:40:38.83] spk_4:
Very oppressive. And in philanthropy is, especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of like, how this wealth was a master secrets that were then these families that you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward. As she said.

[00:41:24.56] spk_3:
And that was the next step in terms of, uh, your next step apologizing. Recognizing, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the Reynolds Kate be Is it Kate Pickett, Be Reynolds Foundation, Reynolds Tobacco, North Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not gonna ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we talked about in the in the steppe, apologizing.

[00:41:31.91] spk_4:
Absolutely. There was. There was no acknowledgment of that. And, uh, chapter one of the book is called My Arrival on the Plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of R. J. Reynolds and so really, literally and metaphorically, I was I was working there, but no, there was. There’s no acknowledgment of that. And I think you see that, you know, in North Carolina recently, the chancellor of you of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners. What most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition.

[00:42:28.10] spk_3:
Yeah, acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t Johns Hopkins University do something similar? That that they had their founders were, uh, Johns Hopkins. Their founders were slave owners,

[00:42:30.73] spk_4:
I think. Georgetown University,

[00:42:34.47] spk_3:
Georgetown. Sorry. Thank you. Okay, Georgetown, they were

[00:42:35.48] spk_1:
pretty, right? There were priests,

[00:42:37.76] spk_3:
priest founders that were slave owners.

[00:42:41.71] spk_4:
That’s right. Actually, no. Ah, friend of mine who lives in New Orleans is ah, black woman who is a descendant, um, and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together, talking about the history, talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And, you know, this has been a very ah healing, I think Ford, the university, and but also front for my friend Karen, who is now having that You know that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors.

[00:43:25.68] spk_3:
You talk a good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um, Canada, You

[00:43:26.14] spk_1:
got to get the book way. Can’t. Can’t tell all

[00:43:28.56] spk_3:
these stories. I mean, I know what listeners I know. I know you love stories as much as I do, but

[00:43:32.32] spk_1:
there’s not enough time to just get the damn book.

[00:43:34.26] spk_3:
Just goto de colonizing both dot com For Pete’s sake. You

[00:43:41.40] spk_1:
go right now. If you’re listening Live, Where are you? But Pepsi? Schenectady, Uh, Nottingham, Maryland. Just go to

[00:43:47.80] spk_3:
de colonizing wealth dot com. Um, okay. Listening. You talk about mm. Empathic and generative listening.

[00:45:07.26] spk_4:
Right. So, you know, often when we when we moved to a process like this, we feel bad. We’ve apologized. Um, the default, sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, Okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so But before you move for an act, you just need to Paul’s toe, actually. Listen, tony, listen and learn. So thio for nonprofits, You know, I ran a non profit. I’ve worked in flame 34 14 years. When I asked non profits, What is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always I just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda. And on the non profit, they’re gonna be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience. And their history is just gonna make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is thio two to stop at times toe also, Listeninto let others be hard.

[00:45:57.50] spk_3:
Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Yeah, listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of donors. Andi, I know you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s That’s the beginning of a relationship, is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing, um, to whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees. Um, there there’s a lot to be learned. Goes back to the value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Um, Okay. So relation You want us to Ah, you want to relate?

[00:46:01.93] spk_1:
Let me ask

[00:46:05.23] spk_3:
you. Ah, you read, um, how to win friends and influence. People say dozens of times. Doesn’t I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book? You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Ah, Dale Carnegie’s book. Dozens of times.

[00:46:19.68] spk_4:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um I stole from the library of Ah. My mom was a domestic worker and she was carrying for ah, frail, elder elderly man handle this vast library. So ended up with this little book that you

[00:46:34.86] spk_3:
stole from an infirm.

[00:46:36.32] spk_4:
I believe. You know, I feel terrible about book Haunts me to this day. So this is a public.

[00:46:42.17] spk_1:
Didn’t even think to leave, like, 20 bucks or something on the table and have

[00:47:09.42] spk_4:
it if I had it at that. All right, Um, so hopefully this is my my way of giving back. This is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the wouldn’t take away from me in that book. Ah, is ah is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um, is when you’re when you’re talking to folks. People just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um, and if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend like, Well, Edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if I did

[00:47:22.68] spk_1:
it right, and so yeah,

[00:47:23.33] spk_4:
it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are, um, you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just gonna really take you much further and building a relationship

[00:47:45.83] spk_3:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking You

[00:47:46.00] spk_1:
have you have an

[00:47:50.78] spk_3:
example of? Ah, um a ah, like building design. Like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of offices.

[00:48:08.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas of, like, the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edges. Absolutely. Foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office, right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And, um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:48:40.37] spk_3:
Take a break. When we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational designed to instead of just office designed

[00:49:34.86] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation you’ve got your best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists, especially in the non profit space and other media, of course. Bloggers. Um uh, what were the other examples of media besides generals? Um, of course, any of the, uh, webinars that you could your expertise could be portrayed in webinars seminars, conferences. They can build those relationships. That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. They’re at turn hyphen to dot ceo. We’ve got butt loads, more time for de colonizing wealth.

[00:49:38.62] spk_3:
Now, we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both dotcom get the thing, get the book. Um, in terms of designing organizations ah, more egalitarian. You’d like to see

[00:49:52.48] spk_4:
absolutely so one of the steps the book is represent. And would

[00:49:56.54] spk_1:
you look

[00:49:56.95] spk_4:
at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part this sector? We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the CEO positions. Folks who really hold power organizations. So

[00:50:14.18] spk_1:
what are

[00:50:25.38] spk_4:
the one of the ideas that I put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many nonprofits. Funders actually are requiring this of their non profit that their funding, Um, and many cover organizations that receive government funding federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the service’s of theirs. Non profits

[00:50:53.40] spk_3:
again be representative. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a That’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:50:58.48] spk_4:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:51:12.01] spk_1:
And there are some

[00:51:12.47] spk_3:
examples use like the Novo Foundation in the book. They have, ah, women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something. Turning tow this building and and the decisions being made by women who are gonna be using the building.

[00:51:56.45] spk_4:
Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation. I really appreciate Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of Doesn’t over foundation wrote the Ford to my book. And they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens Thio folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be.

[00:52:07.49] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds

[00:52:08.62] spk_3:
for five years or seven years guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123 you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment,

[00:52:25.53] spk_4:
right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is Ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding. You know, folks can be you can focus on building a relationship versus oh, I’ve got to meet these certain objectives so I can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna you know how I’m gonna pay the salaries next year really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities

[00:53:00.35] spk_3:
and planning and comm plans that are being one only one or two years. Um, s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing, um, investing.

[00:53:33.04] spk_4:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for, um, for the public. Good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle on issues. If we’re supporting with, the 5% are right hand. Really good work. You know, Michigan, late at work. But in our left hand, we are investing 95% of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so, you know, they’re great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation, for example, who just recently declared that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus, is going to be used and support their mission.

[00:53:51.22] spk_3:
Yeah, on again, other examples in the book and, uh, we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, Actually, um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:54:29.31] spk_4:
the final step is repair all of us who were philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values.

[00:54:47.44] spk_3:
Okay, so I’ll give you last 30 seconds, Uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by What? You what? You talk about your mom?

[00:54:57.70] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving when we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or fix, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so I do you talk about my mom in the book who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and how to run a ministry out of our church to support Children.

[00:55:22.40] spk_1:
Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry

[00:55:24.24] spk_3:
just got got to get the book. You got to read

[00:55:25.63] spk_4:
the last ministry. And so is the giving of time. Treasure and talent not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities and ways that are, um, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists.

[00:55:37.74] spk_3:
Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva Thank you so much. Thank you

[00:55:42.24] spk_4:
for having me on tony.

[00:55:43.11] spk_2:
Real pleasure. Next week. Personalized Philanthropy With Steve Myers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But

[00:55:58.88] spk_1:
Coco Mat in

[00:55:59.36] spk_2:
Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producers

[00:56:35.02] spk_1:
Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

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There’s a possibility that management of the .org domain will be privatized. The #SaveDotOrg movement thinks that’s a bad idea. NTEN is part of the opposition movement and Amy Sample Ward explains why. She’s our technology and social media contributor and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.14] spk_1:
Hello

[00:00:41.93] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the love, their 95% under aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn extra tropic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Impeachment. Say what? What’s your non profit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What do your employees allowed to say, where and when? Jean Takagi has the answers.

[00:00:43.68] spk_3:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group,

[00:00:51.04] spk_2:
then save dot or GE. There’s a possibility

[00:00:53.45] spk_3:
that management of the dot org’s domain will be privatized. Save dot org’s movement thinks that’s a bad

[00:00:59.84] spk_2:
idea, and 10 is part

[00:01:01.88] spk_3:
of the opposition movement. And Amy Sample Ward explains why she’s our technology and social

[00:01:06.93] spk_2:
media contributor and CEO of 10 on tony Steak, too.

[00:01:14.04] spk_3:
Thank you for 2019 were

[00:01:14.24] spk_2:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:54.24] spk_3:
Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and I’m hoping that we’re gonna welcome Jean Takagi back. Do we have him? We’re trying. OK, uh, he’s in. Is he in the conference? Okay, we’re trying to call the conference, so I don’t know. Gene probably cannot hear us. So what we’re gonna be talking about is, um,

[00:02:02.93] spk_2:
some some stuff on, uh, what’s permissible

[00:02:37.85] spk_3:
for 501 See three’s to talk about, um, whether it’s around impeachment or the election election earing things like, Are you allowed to host a candidates forum? Candidates debate. Um, what about promoting issues versus candidates? What do your employees allowed to do? And that’s Ah, that’s what we’ll be covering. We’re gonna

[00:02:38.21] spk_2:
do Jeanne Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne de la machine. We got him. Jean Takagi is the managing attorney of Neo,

[00:02:44.28] spk_3:
the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non

[00:03:02.08] spk_2:
profit lawyer. He’s at G tak. Welcome, Jean Jean. Great. Ah, great to have you. I know you were there, but we were having

[00:03:04.94] spk_3:
trouble getting in. But now we’re now we’re in, You’re in and we’re

[00:03:12.26] spk_2:
in and s so it’s a very communal Wonderful Are you doing out there? Looking forward to holidays? I’m sure

[00:03:15.50] spk_5:
I am. How about you turning

[00:03:17.13] spk_2:
very much? Yeah. I love this

[00:03:18.50] spk_3:
time. Uh, we have a couple of weeks off from the show, and I have nothing scheduled for a couple of weeks. So, uh, it’s

[00:03:25.47] spk_2:
good time, too. I mean, I’ll be working light work light, I guess. And good time.

[00:03:30.99] spk_5:
Same way.

[00:03:31.64] spk_3:
Yes. Excellent. Good for you. And

[00:03:33.71] spk_2:
good time for reflection.

[00:03:38.44] spk_3:
I think on the new year, I like that you have any, uh, any goals for Ah, 20

[00:03:42.73] spk_2:
20 that you want to share or anything exciting coming up in 2020.

[00:03:53.29] spk_5:
Really excited. My partner, Aaron, Brad, Rick and I are going to be teaching a course at Columbia University starting in January, so we’re really looking forward to that in their non profit a management program.

[00:03:59.50] spk_3:
Wonderful is not gonna bring you to New York or you teaching virtually.

[00:04:03.29] spk_5:
We’re teaching online, but we may make out a trip itude in New York

[00:04:07.89] spk_2:
trip or two. But you gotta let me know. Of course.

[00:04:10.12] spk_5:
Absolutely.

[00:04:16.83] spk_3:
I mean, unless you want Oh, yeah. I hope you don’t want to stealth in and stealth out. Not not. Talk to me. I certainly wouldn’t do that if I were visiting San Francisco again.

[00:04:20.94] spk_2:
Um, okay, so let’s start with the most timely.

[00:04:30.74] spk_3:
Um, President Trump was impeached two days ago in the U. S. House of Representatives. Um,

[00:04:31.72] spk_2:
what’s, uh what can we talk about?

[00:04:33.38] spk_3:
If we’re 501 c three around that

[00:04:48.90] spk_5:
Well, it’s a great question and, you know, because they’re different types of 501 see threes and different types of non profit. I should make clear that we’re only talking about public charities here. There’s different rules for different other types of organizations, including private foundations for public charities. There’s quite a lot they can talk about.

[00:04:56.93] spk_2:
OK,

[00:04:57.64] spk_5:
we should also differentiate between impeachment, which has already happened, and the removal from office, which is still going to be a matter of legislative action, specifically a supermajority vote by the Senate whenever they get that before them.

[00:05:11.85] spk_3:
And

[00:05:12.57] spk_5:
I know that’s related issues.

[00:05:16.20] spk_2:
Okay, uh, because there go ahead. Yeah. So Well, why? Why? Why do we

[00:05:21.09] spk_3:
distinguish between those two. This is a big

[00:05:24.51] spk_5:
authority happened,

[00:05:25.38] spk_2:
Yeah,

[00:05:32.43] spk_5:
so because it’s already happened, you know, charity are fairly free to comment on

[00:05:33.34] spk_2:
that action. They’re

[00:06:33.93] spk_5:
also free to comment about how they feel about governmental leaders in doing their jobs. And, you know, it might be really important to do so in the context that it may really impact the charity’s mission. And, you know, for example, I would think that charity to mission is to end hunger, for example, for for American suffering from poverty. They might have a great deal to say about the administration’s rule to end food stands for like about 700,000 people. You know, the 700,000 people are making, on average 2200 and $50 a year. And if you want to comment on that at a charity, that’s okay the same way you can comment on the impeachment whether you think that that was proper or not. But what may not be okay if you’re gonna be talking about the electability of that person for or in any way talking about the upcoming election so you can talk about impeachment in and of itself on dhe. Whether it was, you think it was right or it was improper. But you can’t start to talk about, um, or start to influence the upcoming election. So that’s a little bit of a fine line. Thio. Walk on

[00:06:58.93] spk_3:
okay, and we’ll get to the election and election hearing. What about the coming potential removal from office, The trial in the Senate and, you know, advocating one way or the other for what you think. The Senate, your organization thinks because we’re talking about the organization level, we’ll get. Individual employees will get to that, too. But what your organization thinks about removal from office.

[00:07:14.68] spk_5:
So you know, there’s no absolute guidance from the i. R s on the impeachment of the president. Surprise. But, um, there’s It’s generally thought to be attempting to influence the legislative action inaction by the Senate.

[00:07:26.24] spk_2:
The mall’s

[00:07:51.21] spk_5:
within the tax laws, definition of lobbying and not political campaign intervention. So we know that there’s an absolute bar to, um, you know, endorsing or supporting or opposing candidates for public office. That would be election hearing in that not allowed by any type of 5 23 but public charities are allowed to engage in lobbying so long as it’s considered not substantial, and commenting on a potential legislative action like the removal from office action that will fall before the Senate would be considered lobbying. And to the extent that charity can lobbying and there are some limitations involved, the charity would be free to do so. But again, it has to walk that fine line because we are coming up to an election year on. Dhe has to look like it’s not trying to influence the election itself. So you don’t really want to talk about other candidates for office or on the general overall qualities of Trump as a candidate for another four years. But you want to talk. If you want a charity, you want to talk about the removal from office specifically about what, before the Senate. Why, why would he be removed from from the office? So you’re really took ing taking a look at those two articles of impeachment and commenting on the merits of those articles?

[00:09:02.54] spk_3:
Okay, understand? We need to take our first break when we come back very shortly. We’ll, uh, well, we’ll talk more about lobbying and what’s allowed, not allowed there. And, uh, we’re taking a break for, um, for wegner-C.P.As. Of course, in the new year, might you need a C p. A, whose service is excellent, who provides clear directions and timetables and who’s easy to work

[00:09:10.88] spk_2:
with. That’s not me talking.

[00:09:22.82] spk_3:
That’s from the testimony. Old. That’s not my opinion. That’s, Ah, the opinion of someone who’s worked with not with wegner in the past, a CZ you’ve heard the past few weeks. So if you

[00:09:26.02] spk_2:
do talk

[00:09:39.50] spk_3:
to partner, you eat each tomb. He’s a good guy. No pressure wegner-C.P.As dot com And now let’s go back to Jean Takagi and Impeachment. Say what? Okay, we’re

[00:09:39.89] spk_2:
allowed to do some

[00:09:56.68] spk_3:
lobbying, you said, as long as it’s not substantial. Uh, how do we measure substantiality? Substantial ability. Substantiality substantiality. I think it’s I think that’s what This How do we make whatever helps called Republic

[00:10:33.26] spk_5:
charities there Two ways to measure it? Sort of. The default way is just what the law cost backs and circumstances, and that leaves it up to the Iraq to determine whether you’ve engaged in too much lobbying or not. And if you want to challenge it, ultimately, a court and nobody really wants to go down that route. So, you know, professionals typically uses guidelines. You know, there was this old case that said, you know, 5% of your resource is that should be okay that, you know, anything under 5% should be okay. You want to think about your expenditures, your volunteer time? You know the amount of publication space you’re giving all of those things. If it’s about 5% or less of your resource is you’re probably not too worried about exceeding the lobbying threshold under that backs in circumstances.

[00:10:42.37] spk_3:
Okay, Yeah. 55 percents pretty low.

[00:10:46.35] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s pretty low. Um, but, you know,

[00:10:48.39] spk_3:
for some

[00:11:26.97] spk_5:
organization, that’s all they want to do. But you know, the better choice for the vast majority of charities. And I would say, almost the no brain and choice for charities that are not churches who are ineligible to do this but share other charities that are eligible to make the 5018 lobbying election. I’m. And that that is just a basically 1/2 page born where you put name, address and check a box on it. If you make that election of the charity which could do it any time at all. Um, you get thio, measure your lobbying strictly by your lobbying expenditures, and the limits are just so much more generous.

[00:11:27.98] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:11:28.59] spk_5:
so it’s 20% of your 1st $500,000 of what they call exempt purpose expenditures or mission related expended

[00:11:36.12] spk_3:
choker.

[00:11:36.75] spk_5:
20% of that

[00:11:40.62] spk_3:
100 $100,000 right there and it’s it’s deemed non substantial.

[00:11:46.76] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah, And there’s a separate limit for grassroots lobbying, which is lobbying a different type of lobbying, where you’re not going straight to a legislative body or an employee or member of the legislative body. But you’re going to the public and you’re asking them to contact a member of the legislative body and you have a called action included in that. So if it’s grassroots lobbying, it’s 25% of that total lobbing limit.

[00:12:11.99] spk_3:
But

[00:12:51.64] spk_5:
expenditure limits under Bible one h are much, much more generous than that 5% kind of rule of thumb that we look at the other time again. Um, a big, big tip for any public charity that wants to, um, discuss the removal from from office, um, stay positions on that before it gets to the Senate or wallets in the Senate, the 501 each election could made and be made any time. And it will be effective for the year. And would you make the election? If you decide you don’t want to, you know, continue electing it. Which might be the case for super big charities. Um, where the 5% could actually be, You know, a lot of money you could, you know, revoke your election that anytime after as well by just filing the same form and checking a different box. So a no brainer election for most public charity.

[00:13:00.35] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. So and we’ve talked

[00:13:15.52] spk_3:
about this before. I was probably the April 2016 which was the last election year. Um, you and I talked about advocacy generally, and I think the 501 h came up then. So you’re still a five. A one c three. You’re just making this 501 h election for the year.

[00:13:23.94] spk_5:
Right? So

[00:13:24.75] spk_2:
what do you

[00:13:25.08] spk_5:
make it?

[00:13:25.49] spk_2:
Your sort

[00:13:26.16] spk_5:
of permanently on that until you revoke it. But all it does that 501 age super easy election to make this thing. We don’t want to tell the IRS everything about our lobby. We just want the IRS to measure our lobbying on what was spent. We don’t want to try to estimate volunteer time How much of our office space is dedicated to lobby? We just want to tell them exactly what we spent and recorded on our financial for a lot. So, so much easier to report, so much easier to track. The limits are much easier. And if you violate it, if you go over the lobbying limits without the election, that facts and circumstances test.

[00:14:00.03] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:14:00.37] spk_5:
you violated in any one year, you can lose your Bible. One secret that

[00:14:04.58] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:14:04.93] spk_5:
But if you make the election, you have to violate it over a four year period, not just one year, but over a four year rolling calendar. And then you have violated by more than 50%.

[00:14:16.61] spk_3:
Wow. Okay, so that

[00:14:18.03] spk_5:
that’s just so much more advantageous.

[00:14:39.09] spk_3:
It is sort of a no brainer. And for those much generous, much more generous limits. Okay, cool. All right. 501 inch. Thank you, G. Um, what about our our individual employees? What are in terms of what resource is they’re using when they speak, when they when they speak publicly? What? What are the rules around employees?

[00:15:56.92] spk_5:
Well, you know, first thing to recognize is is individual tax First Amendment rights, right? So they have the freedom of speech. They have the freedom to say whatever they want. Charities shouldn’t control what you know their employees or their directors or officers are saying in their individual capacity. But they should control what they’re saying as representative speaking on behalf of the charities. So there’s that distinction to make so again don’t control what you know your your employees and your staff members and volunteers are saying about impeachment or removal or any other wegner slate of action or political endorsement. But make sure that they don’t use any charity. Resource is in doing so, and that’s really important. Don’t let them use their work email address. Don’t let them use the work. Tell a boat. Don’t let them perform those activities. If they’re, they’re, you know, working on campaigns in the office and the charity’s office. And if they should put their name on with the name of their employer, which is a charity on like an endorsement list of a political candidate. Make sure that there’s some sort of Astra’s back says that the name of their employer is only listed there for identification purposes and doesn’t represent an endorsement by the charity itself.

[00:16:22.14] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Um and so what? What employees do on there personal time and their personal Facebook Twitter email all all, uh, really of no concern to the to the charity.

[00:16:28.54] spk_5:
Yeah, but social media is actually a good point about hitting that gray area, tony, because you probably follow your twitter, tony. So you

[00:16:37.06] spk_2:
probably follow you

[00:16:42.79] spk_5:
individuals who are on Twitter who have both their name and their charity affiliation like listed?

[00:16:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah, in

[00:16:55.29] spk_5:
their account, it might be in their Twitter handle, or it might be in their short bio underneath. You know, the Twitter handle. And that’s where it becomes kind of tricky. Who does that Twitter handle belong to? Does it belong to the individual or doesn’t belong to the charity And could the chair to get in trouble if there is a political endorsement or a statement of opposition to a candidate for public office?

[00:17:12.21] spk_2:
Yeah, I always

[00:18:04.09] spk_3:
have presumed. Although I’ve never followed upto see whether my presumption is, uh is accurate that someone who has the charity name in there either in their handle or, as you say in their short Twitter bio, has another account that doesn’t talk about the charity, Asai said. I never have investigated to see whether they do or not. I’m following their charity account. Um, so maybe maybe people don’t. But that would seem like the better the better practice. And especially if, I mean, shouldn’t that be in a, ah charities social media policy that if you’re going to use the charity name, you know, there are prohibitions around what you can do with that and then and we encourage you? Or we insist that you have, ah, private well non A non charity Twitter account for all other all other non work purposes.

[00:18:56.44] spk_5:
Yeah, conservatively. You know, I kind of like that type of policy, tony. But for practical purposes, it’s kind of like our president or or Hillary Clinton when she was running, separating their kind of personal accounts from their work account. Um, there they are co mingled all the time, and not just by charities and their employees, but by four profit in their employees, so disclaimers can work outright prohibitions and requirements that they have a separate, Um, a Twitter account or face social media account may be helpful at times, but often times you know they’re just going to combine the two. So, um, just be careful about that one thing about, you know, sort of the election hearing prohibition that you can’t endorse or oppose the political candidate. One thing did note is that the Republican Party platform and President Trump himself said they really don’t like that Prohibition often referred to as the Johnson

[00:19:14.09] spk_3:
and Johnson

[00:19:14.70] spk_5:
talked about that before.

[00:19:16.87] spk_2:
Well, they

[00:19:17.05] spk_5:
want to get rid of it, although most the vast majority of charities. And I think the mast majority of churches. I don’t want to get rid of it because I could turn all charities into these election vehicles for where donors say, You know, I’m not gonna give you this donation unless he said a message to all of your members and donors of, you know, in support of a political candidate, and that would suddenly be okay.

[00:20:05.12] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s we’ve been talking. We talked about that. Probably when it around the time it first became a proposal, or at least well, I guess it’s been in the platform. The party platform, you’re saying. But there was some There was more talk about it, I don’t know. A year and 1/2 for two years ago, and we, you and I discussed the Johnson Amendment. Um, it hasn’t happened. Maybe because of the nonprofit community opposition. What what’s your scent? You were you were monitoring that very closely. What’s your sense of where it stands?

[00:20:57.67] spk_5:
Yeah, you know, I think the non profit community’s opposition was very, very helpful in that there were there were others who were opposing it. A CZ well, with a matter of policy. And I think as people got more educated about it, it became less and less popular. Um, it was a way for dark money. T sort of enter into the political system where we didn’t really know where the sources were in. People were getting tax deductions on top of it. So it’s something that be really bad. But the reason why I brought it up here is because if an organization wasn’t quite sure, it was speaking out on impeachment or removal from office, and you know we may be crossing that line. Well, conservatively, I would say, Yeah, the closer we are to election time, you’ve got to be careful even within the bounds that I said that it might be a lobbying activity and not, uh uh, banned political campaign activity. But closer do you are to election that could turn into what looks like a political campaign activity. If you’ve never spoken about the impeachment itself, and you just never it looks like your charity was never interested in the issue until just like, you know, a few months before the election with the

[00:21:25.32] spk_2:
happened that

[00:21:48.92] spk_5:
looks like this casted election hearing communication. But overall, I’m not sure that the I. R s and the current executive branch is really that interested in enforcing the political prohibition laws because, you know, doesn’t resonate with what their messaging has been. Maybe a little bit risk. And it would have been for four years ago.

[00:21:49.85] spk_2:
Okay? Yeah. You still

[00:21:56.54] spk_3:
want to err on the side of caution, right? I mean, I, you know, because they there could be some exception to their enforcement activity or priorities or something. So but

[00:22:01.99] spk_2:
you’re you’re the

[00:22:11.33] spk_3:
conservative conservative guy, at least in terms of legal legal advice of the legal advice side. You know, um, least that’s Yeah,

[00:22:13.26] spk_2:
that’s always been your You. You’ve always been cautious

[00:22:15.77] spk_3:
about advice you give. Yeah,

[00:22:41.47] spk_5:
Yeah, I think when we have a lot of smaller to medium sized organizations amongst the client, there’s just less risk capital, you know, private foundation with, you know, $10 billion might have a little bit Arjun for taking a risk and maybe fighting it in court if they felt like the I r s sir. Uh, neutrino general not correct in their interpretation of whether a lot was violated. But for most small and medium sized charities, they can’t afford to have that battle.

[00:22:49.70] spk_2:
We’ve been

[00:23:15.61] spk_3:
talking mostly about candidates. You mentioned a little bit about issues, but let’s make issues issues clearer versus candidates. Are you saying that if you’re non profit now, as an organization has has been following an issue for a long time and not just doesn’t just start commenting, you know, 60 or 90 days before an election, then eyes that part of the facts and circumstances test for people who don’t for organizations that don’t take the 501 h election. Is that Is that one factor?

[00:24:01.94] spk_5:
Well, just commenting on issues themselves, it was If it isn’t stating a position on a piece of legislation, you’re free to do that all you want. So if you’re educating the public about a particular issue, whether it be climate change or, um, you know, immigration, um, you couldn’t talk about broader issues and educate the public. You know, if you’re giving material facts and you’re doing it in a non part of objective and fair manner, that that should be sort of a fundamental thing of what you do if it’s gonna help further your mission. But when you start to comment on a particular piece of law or legislation and say, you know, this is either a good piece of legislation or this is a bad piece of legislation

[00:24:11.27] spk_3:
or this

[00:24:11.70] spk_5:
new legislation that we need now you’re entering into the realm of lobbying and subject to those limits that we just discussed the 501 h limits or the the facts and circumstances with

[00:24:26.22] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um,

[00:24:28.72] spk_2:
you still there, June? I am okay. Yeah. You

[00:24:41.39] spk_3:
Ah ah, word or a syllable at a time seems to pop out, and then it got quiet. So I I, uh I got concerned. Okay, You’re still with us. All right. Good. Um, thank you for flushing that out.

[00:24:43.22] spk_2:
What else? What else

[00:24:44.49] spk_3:
do you think listeners need to know?

[00:26:06.27] spk_5:
Well, there are all sorts of other things that public charities do around election time. Um, you know, they can’t endorsers support any candidates for public office, But the concert, we engage in voter registration and get out the boat drives. You see that all over the place, and you’re gonna continue to see it over the next year. So a CZ longer again there, you know, conducted in the neutral, non partisan matter without reference to, you know, any of the specific candidates or political parties, you can host a candidate debate or forum. I think many of you have seen those, uh, you know, hosted by a public charity. And again, the purpose of the, uh, debates reform should be for educating the public. So you have to be very careful about not doing it in a partisan man is not with leading questions or a selective choice of topics that that might influence the public one way or the other. Be careful about your selection of moderators and how you comment on the candidate’s response. Yes, I want to be careful about the time allotted to each candidate. You know, it would be very wrong if you allowed just one candidate. If there is, it just came down to the presidential race, for example, and you let one party’s candidates speak for 90% of the time and the other candidates to be 10% of the time. It will be pretty clear where that charity is leaning.

[00:26:28.95] spk_3:
Okay, So to borrow the old Fox News motto, you need to be fair and balanced, but not fair and balanced like they were where a court ruled that they were de facto, not fair and balanced. Need to be really fair and balance. I think

[00:26:29.39] spk_5:
that’s that’s right,

[00:26:30.53] spk_2:
and and

[00:26:35.50] spk_5:
obviously a charity will have its own mission statement to think about. But they’ve got a sort of put it in their back pocket a little bit when they’re designing those type of debates. Reformed Also, voter guides, Kennedy questionnaires, um, also permissible and even candidate appearances. If you’re providing equal opportunity for all candidates, you see that on television is Wow.

[00:27:05.64] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um well, we have just about a minute or so left. Uh, what? Ah, what do you want to leave us with for the for the year on this topic?

[00:27:17.93] spk_5:
Well, I think I’ll just say I think people should be really active in their advocacy. In furtherance of their mission. There are a few resources that are out there. Board sources stand for your mission. Campaign has some excellent resource is on the Alliance for Justice gives you more than mechanics of what I’ve been talking about. What type of advocacy, What type of lobbying, what type of political activities public charities could do on. There’s some nuances to all of this. There’s another layer of election law that may be on top of all of the tax law we’ve been talking about. So those resources are good places to go and go ahead and advocate as much as you can for your mission.

[00:27:58.17] spk_3:
Junior. So modest. Another very good source is non profit law blawg, which is at non profit law blogged dot com. And Jeanne, I wish you lots of

[00:28:01.34] spk_2:
let’s of enjoyment, lots of good time.

[00:28:03.07] spk_4:
Uh, I

[00:28:03.64] spk_3:
hope you enjoy your holidays and the New Year

[00:28:07.14] spk_5:
Happy holidays to you and your family. Tony,

[00:28:28.89] spk_3:
thank you very much, Gene. It’s a pleasure. And thank you so much for what you’ve done for 2019 and what we’re looking forward to. In 2020 he’s Jean Takagi, my pleasure, managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group. He edits that non profit log log, and he’s at G Tak. Now it’s time for a

[00:28:33.08] spk_2:
break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits The same nonprofits we’ve been talking about, the ones, the ones we all know. Non profit radio, for God’s sake. What does that mean For you?

[00:29:00.64] spk_3:
That means fund accounting. No more spreadsheets to manage your restricted grant funds. Also fraud prevention and exceptional customer service. You’ve heard all that in the testimonials. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now let’s transition,

[00:29:03.15] spk_4:
uh,

[00:29:03.88] spk_2:
subtly, but ah, but smoothly, uh, suddenly and

[00:29:27.75] spk_3:
smoothly to tony stick to and my thanks for you. Our listener. Listeners in 2019 were the number one podcast for nonprofits. Most listened to, uh, most longest running, most consistently produced, most sponsored just generically. Overall, you can say Number one podcast for nonprofits. And

[00:29:35.00] spk_2:
that’s because we have so many listeners. So I am grateful

[00:29:49.24] spk_3:
to you. Thank you for your listening If you have shared the show. I appreciate that as well. Thank you for that. That’s how we grow the audiences by listeners sharing what? What

[00:29:49.94] spk_2:
they believe is good content. So thank you with you. Listen, live or archive.

[00:29:54.54] spk_4:
It

[00:30:13.47] spk_3:
makes no difference. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to see my thank you wishes from the Chesapeake Bay, then you can view the video at my thank you video. Thank you so much. We

[00:30:13.61] spk_2:
have a B sample ward. We do not have

[00:30:55.80] spk_3:
any sample word. She hasn’t called into the conference line yet. Okay, well, uh, when when we do connect with her, um, we will be talking about save dot org’s. The issue is that the dot org’s domain that we all use I don’t use you all use. I actually don’t use I’m dot com for my for my business. Um, but you all use it. You know how important it is. There’s the potential that it will be managed by, ah company ethos, which is the water, you know, you may know ethos water. Um, that’s the company that may gain control of the dot or domain. And Amy and I will talk about how these things are all managed. Um, we

[00:31:03.55] spk_2:
have Amy as Amy called in yet

[00:31:40.84] spk_3:
means not. Okay, So what we’re gonna do is, um Let’s do the live listener. Love will do that. And if you will give me a nen dull Jin ce for a few seconds, I’m gonna get my phone and share with Emily. Amy sample Ward’s contact info so that Emily can text and call Amy. So hang on while I get my phone. Okay? The dreaded dead airtime.

[00:31:43.74] spk_2:
But I told

[00:32:11.54] spk_3:
you was coming. So, uh, you had you had time to prepare, so it should not have been dreadful. Uh, for you, So I’m getting her in my pulling up in my contacts. Okay, Emily, Here you go. There’s the ways to contact Amy. Sample word. Please Do use my phone actually, or whatever you want to use. All right, so we’ll be talking about dot Organ. There’s a movement. Does The hashtag is saved dot or Ge? Well, I’m only works

[00:32:29.19] spk_2:
on that. Let’s do the lifeless in love and it is extensive. My gosh, Um let’s go abroad first. Tokyo, Japan! Oh, konnichi wa Ramat Gone Israel! Welcome, Live! Listen, love to Israel as well as Japan. Gwangju, South Korea. You’ve

[00:32:35.28] spk_3:
been with us before. Gwangju. Thank you so much. Seoul, South Korea as well. Um

[00:32:41.53] spk_2:
Brazil. Mina Mina Gerais meant Minas Gerais. Jakarta, Indonesia,

[00:32:42.64] spk_3:
Capital of Indonesia, of

[00:33:07.84] spk_2:
course. Live! Listen, love Thio. Each of our foreign listeners and they continue coaching men city in Vietnam. And, uh, well, we see Vietnam from time to time. Thank you. Live low about to Vietnam and touch skin sherry in Uzbekistan. Yeah, it was Pakistan. Not too often, but we’ve heard from you before. So very glad. Very glad you’re with us. Who’s Becca? Stan? Vietnam, Indonesia, Brazil, South Korea, Israel, Japan.

[00:33:20.68] spk_3:
Multiple. South Korea, of course. Want credit that live? Listen, love. After each of those, uh, countries and coming abroad, we’ve got, um Brooklyn, New

[00:33:24.94] spk_2:
York, Cheyney State Park, Kansas. That’s interesting. Cheyney State Park. Are you actually in the state park? You can, uh that’s interesting. You listening from the State Park. Wonderful. I’m a very

[00:33:43.26] spk_3:
big advocate of state parks. Public lands. You got it. You gotta have park. That used to be the motto in New York City, but it applies throughout the country. Doesn’t matter. Of course you gotta have park green space. Um,

[00:33:49.29] spk_2:
Ashburn, Virginia. San Francisco, California, Tampa, Florida, Fairfield, Connecticut. Live love everywhere. We’ve got her. Okay, well, on the heels of the live love Let’s see now we got to make her wait,

[00:33:55.85] spk_3:
because there’s no way that I’m doing a lot of love without the podcast pleasantry. So now she’s gonna

[00:33:59.60] spk_2:
have to wait. She called in late. It’s our own fault. Um, the podcast pleasantries are over 13,000 listeners.

[00:34:06.65] spk_3:
You heard me say it on Tony’s Take Two. But

[00:34:09.17] spk_2:
I’m grateful. Thank you so

[00:34:10.49] spk_3:
much for being a part of our listener audience. The podcast listeners. Thank you.

[00:34:23.20] spk_2:
Any sample Ward. She’s our social media and technology contributor and the CEO of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change Anytime, everywhere

[00:34:26.74] spk_3:
about online multi channel engagement. She’s

[00:34:32.63] spk_2:
that amy sample ward dot org’s oh dot org’s. This is considered a potential personal personal threat dot ord and she’s at a me RS ward. Any sample ward. Welcome back.

[00:34:53.87] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m not sure what happened. I’ve been trying since, like, 10 20 to get in. And I assume I always assume user error trying to re dial, and it never let me in.

[00:34:57.38] spk_2:
Okay, Well, we had the same trouble

[00:34:58.91] spk_3:
here, actually trying to connect with Jean Takagi. We saw that he was in the conference system, but we couldn’t get in ourselves to connect with him so on. And so it’s probably not user error times, too. There’s something flunky.

[00:35:12.16] spk_2:
And the reason we’re using

[00:35:21.69] spk_3:
this conference system and rather than having you call the studio directly, which we almost always do, is because there’s some problem with the with

[00:35:21.81] spk_2:
the phone line. Four lines? Yeah.

[00:35:23.94] spk_3:
So we’re using the conference line. Of course, we need the phone line to get the company line, But

[00:35:33.87] spk_2:
anyway, well, you’re a technology technologist, our technology contributor. It’s wonderful until it fails. I mean, I’m almost I’m almost sorry for saying this. I do apologizing. That was gratified that you have trouble with technology too.

[00:35:43.21] spk_0:
Oh, don’t worry. People are always so happy when an 10

[00:35:46.72] spk_2:
says that something

[00:35:48.02] spk_0:
that happened because it’s so validating.

[00:35:51.43] spk_2:
You

[00:36:22.00] spk_0:
know, it happens to all of us, because at the end of the day, all these tools, they’re just tools, right? They’re not perfect systems. Humans built all of them and humans that themselves. They’re not perfect. So things are bound to happen. But I think it’s really interesting the way folks respond when something, you know, technological is happening. That is not what they want. You know, the folks who get really frustrated and upset, and it’s like, Well, sure, But you know, how far is that getting

[00:36:23.35] spk_2:
you

[00:36:24.02] spk_0:
or the folks who are like, Oh, I’m gonna you know, like MacGyver my way around, just like you all did. So good. Good for you for having a productive response,

[00:36:34.73] spk_2:
Thank you very much. And for you as well.

[00:36:36.44] spk_3:
You kept trying. And, uh, I could I could imagine that your frustration was growing as 10 30 Pacific time came and went, which is the time I I was expecting your call. I can imagine your heart rate was rising blood pressure as well. But you

[00:36:51.11] spk_2:
mean I mean,

[00:36:51.78] spk_0:
what could you know? I usually like to dial in early and listen.

[00:36:54.52] spk_3:
Yes.

[00:36:55.08] spk_0:
And so I tried. But

[00:36:57.23] spk_2:
you know, to know about it

[00:37:00.06] spk_0:
anyway, here I am.

[00:37:04.26] spk_2:
Indeed, let’s talk about save dot or ge I While we were waiting

[00:37:06.00] spk_3:
for you, I was introducing the topic. I explained the listeners that there’s the potential that the dot org’s domain could be managed by a private company

[00:37:20.46] spk_2:
ethos My saying that right? Or they are ethos right ethos. Okay, which is the water that they’re also there? I think

[00:37:25.44] spk_3:
they’re best known for water. At least that’s the way I know them. Their social.

[00:37:26.07] spk_2:
No, they’re

[00:37:26.36] spk_0:
brand new, so I don’t think they’re best known for anything.

[00:37:29.42] spk_3:
Oh, listen to the oh, we’re

[00:37:37.08] spk_2:
already getting. They’re already getting some attitude about this subject. All right there, Brandon. E. Hear it? I heard the tone. I know you. I heard that tone. All right, so this is not the ethos water company,

[00:37:42.12] spk_0:
brand new

[00:37:42.83] spk_2:
private

[00:37:43.21] spk_0:
equity firm.

[00:37:43.81] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, brand new

[00:37:45.14] spk_3:
private equity firm. Okay. I didn’t know it was brand new. I just kept seeing equity from All right. So

[00:37:49.39] spk_2:
let’s introduce, I think to get our way into this, we need to understand how

[00:37:54.06] spk_3:
this domain the dot org’s domain is managed. I mean, and I know you’ll be right. I know you’ll be judicious about acronyms because you don’t want to end up in jargon jail S o, I

[00:38:05.01] spk_2:
think. But I think it helps to understand how this

[00:38:07.05] spk_3:
thing this dot org’s is managed.

[00:38:13.47] spk_0:
Right. Okay, so I’m going to try and explain in some somewhat basic terms.

[00:38:18.47] spk_2:
Okay, But then

[00:38:22.62] spk_0:
I will rely on you to interject questions or fast forward or pause, you know, as I go.

[00:38:26.84] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:39:42.59] spk_0:
Okay. So the internet, everyone listening has used it. I’s probably using it to listen even And we know that website, You know, we don’t just write non profit radio. We write non profit radio dot whatever, and the part of the website that comes at the dot whatever follows is called a top level domain. So there cannot. We can’t just go make one up. Those top level domains are managed, and there’s only so many of them. And I can they use the acronym I can as their name, which stands for Internet Corporation for assigned names and numbers. There you can kind of think about them is like the body that’s mento. Organize the Internet, So they’re the ones that say OK, you know, we’re allowed to use dot com and dot or GE and dot I owe and dot. Whatever else, they’re kind of the keepers of the order. So they are involved in olive ist as those keepers of the order. Okay, The next group we need to talk about is the Internet society that is a nonprofit organization, and their mission is essentially to promote a globally connected and trustworthy Internet.

[00:39:48.31] spk_3:
Okay, listeners may see the acronym I s O. C, right. Let’s

[00:39:54.36] spk_2:
have the night knock Internet society yet.

[00:40:31.46] spk_0:
So, almost 20 years ago there, when I can waas working to continue their their work and managing those top level domains, uh, they bid tohave the contract for the dot org’s domain. And there was a lot of conversation about the value of a non profit managing the top level domain that’s essentially four non profit right instead of a four profit domain registrar.

[00:40:36.01] spk_2:
So I can I can is itself a non profit. Yes, okay.

[00:42:38.49] spk_0:
And Internet society is non profit, and they they won the dot or contract, and in the process of that, created another non profit called public interest registry PR, which would be the organization that owned the contract and operationally managed it. But P I. R. Was connected to Internet society, so Internet Society was choosing the board for P i. R. And revenue kickbacks went to Internet society, that kind of thing. So there very closely related as organizations. You No one is like the owner of the other. And for the last, like 18 years or so, PR has managed the dot or domain, and their work has included managing that. Making sure that there’s, um, resource is for non profit. They have they have, you know, everything from sponsoring events to funding training programs, Thio investing in research about, you know, the way non prophecies, the Internet. They’ve done lots of things to kind of re invest the money they make into the use of the Internet by non profit, and everyone kind of thought things were fine. Who write things are moving along just fine, and last month’s just over a month ago from today. All of a sudden, there was an announcement from Andrewsullivan, the executive director of the Internet Society, that they we’re going to sell P. I r to a private equity firm and that it was essentially great news because Internet society would get so much money from the sale that they would create an endowment for themselves. That was kind of position is the only the good news about this was because it would just be so much money for them.

[00:42:44.95] spk_2:
Okay, that was that. That was obviously early day.

[00:42:48.45] spk_3:
That was early day, because I in my research, I didn’t find I didn’t even find that anymore. So that that

[00:42:54.27] spk_2:
must have been that their first position. I’ll tell you what. We got to take our

[00:42:56.90] spk_3:
break, Theo. Only one we need to take. And then you and I can continue to invest the show. Okay. Thank you. Um,

[00:43:04.35] spk_2:
have you ever wondered why some nonprofits

[00:43:13.42] spk_3:
are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do just that. They are themselves former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage.

[00:43:29.45] spk_2:
It’s all about the relationships almost in life. What isn’t There are turn hyphen

[00:43:41.49] spk_3:
to dot ceo, all right. And we have but loads more time for Amy Sample Ward and save dot org’s. Okay, So the initial justification for this well, it’s not really much of a initial rationale. It’s not even it didn’t even didn’t even bother with justification. Just initial rationale was this will be good for I sock will make a lot of money by selling P I R.

[00:43:53.80] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:43:54.31] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:43:59.51] spk_0:
which of course, uh, raise a lot of questions.

[00:44:02.12] spk_2:
A lot of black people.

[00:44:32.91] spk_0:
And now the second piece that we need to talk about happened months before this announcement. So back in the early spring, the contract details for the dot or contract were up for renegotiation with I can and a few things happened in that renegotiation that already have the community kind of in critical response. Those things included some changes to what had, for a long time been part of the contract. One of those was taking away the price cats, so prices could be set at whatever was desired.

[00:44:45.21] spk_2:
The price for

[00:44:47.40] spk_3:
a dot org’s domain is very low, right?

[00:44:50.79] spk_0:
It’s about $10

[00:44:52.71] spk_3:
$10 for the year. Okay,

[00:44:54.88] spk_2:
Okay, you’re more acquainted

[00:44:56.72] spk_3:
with this and I am because I don’t use dot org’s I love Dot or GQ. You know, I make my living at dot org’s, but I don’t I don’t use it personally, All right? So, yeah, it’s $10 a year. Okay, so they’re So the initial conversation about a contract renewal was take away those takeaway a price cap,

[00:45:23.25] spk_0:
take away the price cap, and then some other pieces that essentially made folks feel that it could be organizations with these domains. There’s some vulnerabilities around censorship and that kind of thing.

[00:45:30.91] spk_2:
Okay, So a

[00:45:31.79] spk_0:
number of organizations

[00:45:33.22] spk_2:
and

[00:46:04.28] spk_0:
people had responded to those changes back in the summer and spring saying, you know, Hey, wait a second. This is not right. This does not feel right. This is, you know, longstanding components of the contract. Why’re these Chicken Jane? And despite overwhelming over 3000 responses saying don’t do this, I can. And public interest registry went ahead and the contract gotta prove that way.

[00:46:05.26] spk_3:
Ok, wasn’t I? Sock, actually, isn’t I Sock?

[00:46:09.57] spk_0:
I can

[00:46:10.46] spk_2:
I can. Okay, but I stock

[00:46:12.67] spk_3:
owns public interest registry, right?

[00:46:15.88] spk_0:
Sure. But public interest registry is kind of the manager there. The owner of the contract.

[00:46:21.62] spk_3:
Ok, ok, and they’re the ones who managed the managed. OK, all right, So now

[00:46:43.06] spk_0:
and what is kind of an added so we can think about it as there’s all of these changes happening? And then, isn’t it so convenient that now a private equity firm is willing to pay over a $1,000,000,000 for this contract that no longer includes price caps and includes some vulnerabilities around?

[00:46:50.72] spk_2:
Wait. Oh, I hold on. I didn’t see that. The price tag is over a $1,000,000,000.

[00:46:57.22] spk_0:
$1.12 billion.

[00:47:11.85] spk_2:
Wow. Okay, I did not see that. I was I was wondering, but I hope she’s okay. So All right, so the question All right, So let’s let’s fast forward now. You aren’t

[00:47:20.74] spk_0:
even following who don’t. Maybe you don’t even work in a non profit that has a doubt or domain. You can already see from, like a, you know, business magazine perspective. What? What seems questionable about the situation?

[00:47:29.30] spk_2:
How the hell are they? How the hell is going to make all that money back, right? Yes. On the backs of

[00:47:34.24] spk_3:
America’s 1.3 million charities.

[00:47:37.88] spk_0:
Well, and keep in mind, this is for the entire globe. this is non profit over the entire

[00:47:43.35] spk_2:
world way. Talk

[00:47:49.38] spk_0:
about wanting to have a human rights lens on reviewing this transaction. When we talk about vulnerabilities for censorship, we’re thinking about non profit, not necessarily in the U. S. We’re thinking about non profit in parts of the world where they rely on a dot or domain so that people here in the U. S. No. Oh, this must be a new organization doing good work. I’m willing to donate to them. I’m willing to support them. They’re likely doing work in a geographic region where their government is not in support of what they’re doing right. And having vulnerabilities for censorship means their government could just turn their website off. Right?

[00:48:28.27] spk_2:
So,

[00:49:21.43] spk_0:
uh, there’s a lot happening that is sure maybe not happening in this moment, but very, very likely could happen, right, because these changes have happened. So, um, what has also been challenging is that in a few of these public forums and 10 held a community call and invited the folks from Internet society and PR to come. And John Nevins said that he asked for those changes to be added into the contract, which kind of further creates this web of questioning about who knew this was happening. And how long was this plan, right? If those changes to the contract are what made the contract worth apparently over a $1,000,000,000 how did all of this happen?

[00:49:23.63] spk_2:
Did you have someone from ethos on the call?

[00:49:30.23] spk_0:
We did Eric Brooks, That Theo.

[00:49:50.31] spk_3:
Okay. And he has, uh, yes, I wanna be. I wanna be balanced here because he has a block post that from December 16th where he answers some of the answers, all the questions that a Mozilla Block post had had asked

[00:49:57.17] spk_0:
Answer some of those questions and I would say responded to them. Did not answer them,

[00:50:29.66] spk_3:
You would say responded. Okay, okay. So, like, for instance, on the pricing, um, what assurances gonna dot Or community have that ethos and p i r will keep their promises regarding price increases. We’re committed to limit increases for dot, or domain registrations prices to no more than 10% per year on average, based on domain prices today, that would equate to an additional $1 per year. We plan to embed these pricing commitments in our public benefit LLC or other corporate governing documents that that doesn’t care. Is that not satisfactory?

[00:50:43.24] spk_0:
No, I mean on average. So that could say, over the next 20 years, the average has been 10%. We all understand that Average doesn’t mean every year has to be.

[00:51:05.50] spk_3:
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now Eric says that they are Ah, they’re going to create a P I R. Stewardship Council. Right now, The Stewardship Council, um, concept behind our proposal is to put in place a dot org’s community advisory board body. The council will seek input from the daughter of community and convey the needs of the data or community to P i R. Management provide advice to p ay, our leadership on key matters impacting the daughter of community. And the leading voice in recommending new service is capabilities to be offered through the dot org’s platform to serve the mission driven community.

[00:51:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:51:31.06] spk_3:
okay. What? You know,

[00:52:33.02] spk_0:
they had a, uh webinar. I guess you’d call it yesterday. So did and spoke at more length. It wasn’t a discussion or, you know, they didn’t take live questions or anything like that. But they spoke at more length about the same topics. And what we can understand about this advisory council is that the P. I. R. Board and the folks already working there working within this deal will choose who the council is. The council has no actual authority. Oh, our mechanisms for accountability. And, you know, it’s like a group that they have chosen that they say is able to give be back. So I don’t see how it addresses any of the kind of concerns that rest of the dot or community has for riel accountability.

[00:52:35.39] spk_3:
Okay, so your concern is that it would just be like an advisory board on sort of perfunctory and not not without really thought without authority. The authority would

[00:52:48.12] spk_2:
still be may not

[00:52:52.65] spk_0:
be folks who would have divers or critical views because their hand selected.

[00:52:57.75] spk_2:
Okay, well, hey, did say

[00:53:09.60] spk_3:
again Eric Brooks in his block post. He said that there would be standards for qualifications for membership on the stewardship Council. So

[00:53:10.65] spk_0:
sure,

[00:53:11.40] spk_2:
they would think

[00:53:12.31] spk_0:
that’s a pretty like white, dominant view of saying I’m gonna choose my friends.

[00:53:31.50] spk_3:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because, Well, yeah, The question is whether the dot or community would have input into, I guess I guess we’re talking about. Enter the terms of this disagreement between ethos and I saw. Right,

[00:53:32.83] spk_0:
Right. So we’re moving from a world where the dot or contract is managed by a non profit organization who would also managed by a non profit er organization and into a world where the dot or contract is held by a for profit entity owned by a private equity firm.

[00:53:50.69] spk_2:
Do it right. Just the principles

[00:54:02.33] spk_0:
of those organizational set up completely changes the context in which the dot or contract is maintained. Right? We’re going from a non profit entity reinvesting any additional funds back into the sector to two organizations that are really meant to maximize profit. Right?

[00:54:18.87] spk_3:
I understand. I do understand. And this falls into the category of I I’ve noticed this more in the past 10 years or so. We

[00:54:23.50] spk_2:
have to I feel like I have to fight Maur for what I did to keep status quo.

[00:54:28.65] spk_4:
Um

[00:54:29.74] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:54:32.60] spk_3:
So this is something that all

[00:54:32.93] spk_0:
right, let alone progress.

[00:54:37.08] spk_2:
But yeah, I’m just I’m just Internet

[00:54:54.29] spk_0:
society. Didn’t feel that it was sustainable to manage PR PR didn’t feel like it was manageable. Thio sustain the dot or contract there’s a different solution to that than completely, you know, throwing it out.

[00:54:56.36] spk_3:
I understand. All right. I’m

[00:54:57.40] spk_2:
gonna let us go

[00:54:57.93] spk_3:
a little longer. We are. Typically, we would end right about now, but let’s let’s go another few minutes. Not not not 10 minutes. Because listeners are pretty much counting on on our but, you know, really go another 45 minutes.

[00:55:09.79] spk_2:
Do we know how much

[00:55:12.26] spk_3:
revenue P I R earns? I don’t know. Over the

[00:55:16.01] spk_2:
past years, Annual 19 nineties

[00:55:18.24] spk_0:
and that kind of thing.

[00:55:20.44] spk_2:
Okay, what do you know?

[00:55:21.19] spk_0:
It’s like 90 year.

[00:55:24.12] spk_3:
90 year? Okay. And you’re saying that the contract price is 1.1 billion?

[00:55:30.09] spk_0:
Correct.

[00:55:40.30] spk_3:
Okay. It takes a long time at night at the rate of 90 year to earn back 1.1 billion. And then it’s a venture profit. It’s a venture capital firm. Well, Fletcher, profit venture capital firm, which is a which is a profit profit firm,

[00:55:46.59] spk_2:
that it would be a long

[00:55:47.44] spk_0:
time if you had price caps.

[00:56:00.20] spk_3:
Yes, but there may be other methods, you know, we’re not, you know, we’re not venture capitalists, so I guess you know it comes with a healthy dose of suspicion, not just skepticism,

[00:56:02.04] spk_2:
but I mean challenge. There’s

[00:56:04.47] spk_0:
so little information that’s been shared and so

[00:56:06.68] spk_2:
many questions way.

[00:56:29.19] spk_0:
We have asked, you know how in the community Call it and 10 held. We directly asked Capital if they could confirm how long they plan to own the new version of public interest registry, whatever the new or profit is, how long they plan, tone and invest in that company. And they their answer was a really long time in terms of this work. Okay, well, in terms of private equity, I mean, a year could be a long

[00:56:38.39] spk_2:
time, you know,

[00:56:55.20] spk_3:
Right on his block post. Eric Brooks says Ethos has stated on multiple occasions that we are committed to investing. P I R for the long haul. Are investors include families and not profit acquisitions with long term investment horizons. Um, okay, now, but

[00:56:56.08] spk_2:
your concern is that they could resell it and then and then and then we And then it’s then it’s

[00:57:27.76] spk_3:
between 22 Private. Well, even if their public to four profit entities contracting and the outside community has no input into what contracts are between two companies any more than you know any more than we can comment on intends contracts with vendors for NTC, it becomes a matter of private contract in the case of every sale. Okay. All right. What should, uh, what your listeners do. What should we be doing? We gotta we gotta

[00:57:34.50] spk_2:
move on What you’ll do, you really

[00:57:36.45] spk_0:
love? You can

[00:57:37.14] spk_2:
go

[00:58:25.50] spk_0:
to save dot org’s dot org’s s a V e D o t org dot or GE where we have posted the recording of the community call, for example, if you want to be able to hear what the folks from these companies have said, uh, you can see the letter that we’ve sent to them that outlined some of the issues in the contract and what is really important right now. As for organizations to sign on and endorse our request that the sale stop or if you can’t sign on behalf of your organization, sign as a person as an individual. Right now there’s almost 550 organizations who have signed on, and we have almost 19,000 people who signed on those numbers really matter and help demonstrate that this isn’t you know, just in 10 and e f f who have a problem, right? This is a lot of organizations diverse people who understand that this is not in the best interest of a non profit, you know, four good world of the internet.

[00:59:14.24] spk_3:
Okay, Andi, uh, some of the other organizations involved Association of junior leagues. I’m just sampling from from a list of crisis text line do something dot org’s listeners know Aria finger Do something dot or GE ff Electronic Frontier Foundation Girl Scouts of us A Independent Sector Meals on Wheels America, National Council of Nonprofits and 10 Techsoup Volunteer Match Volunteers of America Wicked Media Y M C A of the U. S. A Y W c A U s A. All right, Amy Sample Ward. Thank you very much.

[00:59:22.12] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Tony. I really appreciate you kind of diving into this when I know it can feel a little acronym heavy, but it really will impact every single non profit

[00:59:33.62] spk_3:
Amy Sample word social media and technology contributor and CEO of in 10. You’ll find her at Amy sample ward dot or ge and at a M. E. R. S

[00:59:40.76] spk_2:
board and Aimee. Simple word. Lots of good wishes for your holidays. And for 2020. That’s a good wishes. Radio,

[00:59:47.02] spk_0:
I hope 2020 means we get to see each other in person.

[00:59:51.12] spk_2:
Well, we will it ntc

[00:59:52.47] spk_3:
But we need to go beyond that. Hopefully.

[00:59:54.43] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:59:56.03] spk_3:
Thank you so much, Amy.

[00:59:59.01] spk_2:
Next week and the week after, there are no shows. I hope you enjoy. Enjoy the hell

[01:00:24.21] spk_3:
out of your holidays. Take time for yourself. Disconnect off grid. You know what all that means? I don’t need to flush it out. I hope you do it. I hope you do it for yourself. Friends, Family. Do it. Take the time you need. You need to take time for yourself because you’re in a giving profession. So no show for two weeks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com