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Special Episode: Nonprofits & CARES Act

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My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Nonprofits & CARES Act
The CARES Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the Act that nonprofits can take advantage of. Benefits for your org and your staff. And they’re pretty good. So you may want to apply. Plus, longer term relief for nonprofit fundraising. Gene Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.




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[00:01:07.49] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special short episode of non profit radio to meet the needs of nonprofits during the Corona virus pandemic. This is our fourth special episode. Non Profits and Cares Act. The Cares Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the act that nonprofits can’t take advantage of benefits for your organ and your staff, and they’re pretty good, so you may want to apply. Plus, there’s longer term relief for nonprofits. Non profit fundraising. Jean Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group Jean Welcome. How are you?

[00:01:09.60] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you very much, tony, for allowing me to share information with your with your audience.

[00:01:15.42] spk_3:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. I know you’ve been ah, believing it is my pleasure. You’ve been busy all week talking about the Cares Act, I’m sure.

[00:01:26.18] spk_0:
Definitely everybody interested in in, uh, how nonprofits can take advantage and really thankful that there’s some advocacy groups out there that got nonprofits considered in these in these Lost?

[00:02:11.24] spk_3:
Yeah, for sure. Explicitly in in some cases. So all your work this week has led you to this to this pinnacle non profit radio. So it’s all led up to here. So thank you for all that preparation that you’ve been doing toe to talk to our listeners. Um, is it is it best if we, uh, you want to start with an overview? I mean, I definitely want to get into the paycheck protection program and the economic injury disaster loans. Do you want to start a broader than that before we get in that specific? Well,

[00:02:51.14] spk_0:
I’ll just mention that the Cares act is this $2.2 billion package. And, um, when provisions were put in for small businesses, it was really important. Thio note that nonprofits are out there who are also employers who are also desperate for assistance at this time. And thio have non profits put into provisions like the payroll protection program are really important. But this is, um, just part of the legislation that’s come down since the Corona virus pandemic has hit us and and our federal government has started paying attention to what needs our country’s having great now desperate needs in many cases. And there was a set of laws called the Families First Corona Virus Response Act. That duck with leaves a swell paid leaves by employees. And so that’s another component that I hope we get a chance to talk about in addition to the care, Zach.

[00:03:19.34] spk_3:
Okay, Um, all right, so why don’t we? Why don’t we take care of that? What’s the what’s the the leave? The leave provisions? So the

[00:04:46.65] spk_0:
leave provisions in basically apply to again small businesses, including non profits with less than 500 employees and provided for two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now, sick leave isn’t required to be federally from under federal law to be. I hate it. In many cases, some states do require it. But here is a federal law ah, that required now all small employers, including non profits, to provide two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now there are some exceptions that might be possible for employers that had less than 50 employees for undue hardship, Um, for really, really small organizations where that’s just not at all possible that that is a standard that they might be able to to meet. But generally this applies to everyone, and the amount of paid sick leave is at the employees regular rate up to $511 per day. So it’s captain a 10 days or 5100 and $10. Okay, um, and if it is to take care of ah, child or, you know because of the child is is the one who’s sick or the child is, uh, needs child care because their schools of clothes because of quarantine rules, then the amount would be the employees regular rate up to $200 per day. So not the full 511. But it would be. Actually, I’m sorry. The employers rate times 2/3 that 2/3 of the employers rate or a captain $200 per day for that 10 days. So that’s the first section required. Paid sickly.

[00:05:05.28] spk_3:
Okay, where can we find this in writing somewhere? So because that’s a lot to digest. Yeah, it’s See this on the web.

[00:05:36.24] spk_0:
So if you just Google families first Corona Virus Response Act, um, the National Council of non profit actually had a good site on that. So that maybe a place to look Okay, Cool. Uh, the other leave that they have is a 12 week of emergency family and medical leave, and basically it’s a 10 week add on to the two weeks that you originally had. But this is only for care of family members again. Child care. If there’s a sick child due to the Corona virus or their school got quarantined, and child care is required to be provided

[00:05:50.87] spk_3:
that it is not to be child care, could it be care of someone else in the family who’s not a child?

[00:05:56.64] spk_0:
It could be another dependent. I believe that that’s Ah provided a family member

[00:06:02.02] spk_3:
dependent. Okay, but that wouldn’t be a parent then, unless the parent was independent.

[00:06:38.48] spk_0:
I don’t know that that currents are included will have to wait to see if, if the regulation spell that out become. And that’s an additional 10 weeks and again to the to the 12 weeks that sorry to the two weeks that that’s in the original act. And that’s a 2/3 of each employee’s usual pay up to $200 per day. Now, this is a huge burden on employers, right? All of a sudden, if they hadn’t been required to pay leave before now they’re required to pay leave. And obviously, a lot of employers are gonna be cash strapped now if their businesses have closed and things so the these air not available if the workplace is completely closed down. Um, and the other thing to know that employers can recoup these costs through a payroll tax credit. So details kind of in the regulations or in some of the sites, including the National Council of non profit sites I mentioned. But employers can recoup these costs. Employees are getting paid sick leave under these provisions. So that was one of the immediate loss that came out

[00:07:10.84] spk_3:
when you say the workplace must be closed. You mean the organization Shut down. You don’t mean the office closed, do you? Or do you?

[00:07:18.60] spk_0:
If the office is closed and the employees are unable to perform their jobs from home, so if

[00:07:38.18] spk_3:
and unable to be able to work from home Oh, correct. Okay. Okay. Because of the caregiving that they’re providing a correct. All right. Um, can we go to the to the S B a loans. Okay. Is that right?

[00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s that’s one. Probably critical.

[00:08:42.84] spk_3:
Okay, Yes. I want to make sure we exhausted the other. The other information that you had, I want to say just to get started. The S B a site s b a dot gov is very, very simple. I think I was able to understand it, Um s p a dot gov and then you’ll be looking at this basketball size picture of a Corona virus. You can’t possibly miss it on the site, and you just click in there and to learn more. And then you just scroll right down to Corona virus funding options. And then, ah, Pedro opens up with, ah, lot of what we will. Well, it’ll be. It’ll cover what? Gene and I are about to talk about the paycheck protection program. The e i D. L. Which is the economic interest, Economic injury, disaster loan. And then there’s a couple of others too, so it’s really very, very helpful, I think thea CSB a site s p a dot gov um Shall we start with the paycheck protection program gene that that’s also only for employers of 500 or fewer right employees.

[00:09:31.68] spk_0:
Yeah, fewer than 500 employees, including non profit. So really a big point to add that nonprofits are eligible for this. Ah, and agreed that this is an important provision. $349 billion was dedicated towards this. And on the date that we’re recording this tony is the first day that the application theoretically was released. Um, but these loans are available by S from S P a lender’s ah, that would include most F d I C insured banks. But not all of these institutions are ready to implement this, even though the application theoretically came out today. And one of the concerns that everybody is having on day one is that the regulations just came out as an interim rule last night.

[00:09:47.06] spk_3:
Yeah, so that just right, Just Thursday, just last night, something came out. Yeah,

[00:11:04.31] spk_0:
And while the application and and the SP a site makes it look easy, there are a lot of unanswered questions or ambiguities, and that is making with lenders have have a problem. Ah t implement this. Some people are guessing all of the loans are going to run out on day one because $349 billion. Sounds like a lot. But if you say every small business in the country is eligible thio to take this in every small amount profit, there’s only so much that that money is going to last. And there’s a question about whether the lenders are going to prefer their own clients. So their existing clients that have loans with the organizations are they gonna prefer the larger clients because they value their business, for which, you know their banks are going to reach some sort of reward over time. Are they gonna value them ahead? Was a small non profit that’s coming in? So my best advice is to try to go in to your own bank, find out if they are an SP a lender, uh, and make your case to them as quickly as possible. I don’t know that everything will be depleted on day one. I’m That might be the worst case scenario, I believe while Spargo Bank has not started yet because of issues with implementation, So there are there are going to be problems getting this rolling, but once it rolls, the money’s not gonna last very long. So I would say to the extent you can I get your paperwork together very quickly. The SP A site lets you know kind of what type of paperwork is required for this, and there’s not a lot. It’s not like a traditional known as well, tony. I guess that’s maybe the first thing I

[00:11:40.04] spk_3:
should be relaxed some of the some of the requirements and they’ve really streamlined the the application, especially for this. I know for myself, Um, well, we’ll get to the economic injury loan. But just from one day to the next the economic injury loan, the application went from like four different forms you had to fill out last Sunday night to Monday when it was just streamlined, like two or three. It was like there was three screens. You just had a pick selections and make a bunch of certifications, and you were done and it was much more burdensome just the day before.

[00:12:15.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and these things have been changing on the Fly, the paycheck protection program. In the best scenario about this, that nonprofits need to know which. Maybe I shouldn’t have hidden the ball, hit

[00:12:28.73] spk_3:
the ball, start figuring it out. That’s okay,

[00:12:31.40] spk_6:

[00:12:32.64] spk_0:
why it’s so great. If you can access, it is it’s alone. That’s forgivable. Meaning that it’s essentially a grant s. Oh, it’s a loan that you’re going to make. And then if you keep up your payroll force, um, you pretty much get to recoup all of it back. And that’s a huge thing, right? To be able to keep your work staff on so that that’s the big point.

[00:13:23.89] spk_3:
And the details of that are in the, uh, in that on that s B a site that I, uh that I that I was suggesting people go to says, You know, you’re if you haven’t kept everybody, you have to rehire everybody, I think, by June 20th or June 30th of this year. But the details are on the SP, a site. It’s really it’s in plain language. It’s really pretty simple to understand what you’re committing to. But even if you know, even if you’re not able to keep up your workforce on and not have it converted to a grant, at least it is. It’s a very favorable

[00:13:32.34] spk_7:

[00:13:33.34] spk_0:
right? It’s 0.5% less than 1/2 a percent

[00:13:38.53] spk_3:
and deferred interest is deferred for the 1st 6 months.

[00:13:41.41] spk_0:
Correct? And do on a two years. Right now, though, they’re very likely could be an extension. And we may see variations of this and hopefully, more appropriations of more money. Should they run out of this amount. I I’m pretty sure the federal government knows that this is still phase one. Ah, and they’re going to be additional phases necessary on an individual level as well as on on entity level.

[00:14:15.84] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. Anything more you want to add about Thea about the PPP, The paycheck protection program

[00:14:55.84] spk_0:
show? Sure. So let’s talk about what it what it what the loan is for Andi. That’s exactly what it refers to payroll to paying your payroll. But it also includes utilities interest on your mortgage, not the principal on your mortgage, but interest on your mortgage, uh, and rent. So you and utility so some some occupancy costs and employee costs. And generally the amount of the loan is going to be determined by 2.5 months, essentially 2.5 times the average totally monthly payroll costs based on ah, one year. I’m sorry. Based on the last year. A test period, right that times a 2.5 times monthly payroll costs. That’s something Thio think about as being a huge, huge help at this time.

[00:15:24.31] spk_3:
That’s that’s 10 weeks worth of payroll, plus those of expenses that you mentioned interest on mortgages, utilities, et cetera, And

[00:17:39.70] spk_0:
no collateral. No personal guarantee is not like other S b A loan. So, um, a CZ, long as you’re under 500 employees there, few other qualifications, some of them I’m not so happy about that. You know, if you if you’ve got a criminal record or anything yeah, an indictment, you don’t qualify for it. Um, not not even a conviction there, Justin Indictment. So it’s It’s interesting formulas that would come up with that. I’m sure there was, ah lot of haggling on the floor to get something up quickly, but that’s what we have that there are a lot of details in this one area of confusion that I mentioned tony in BET That’s maybe creating a little bit of headaches for for banks and lenders and also for organizations that are trying to share information about this, including May is what about independent contractor costs. So we talked about payroll and payroll. You know, from a legal accounting standpoint, we’re talking about employees, right? But what if what about the non profits that are paying people? Is independent contractors Ah, and my understanding. And based on the interim rule that came out last night from the S B A. That payroll costs do not include independent contractor costs. Although I’m seeing conflicting information from independent sector and the Council of Now, not the National Council of Nonprofits right now about that issue and partly because the application refers to do you have employees or independent contractors that are reported as 10 90 nines? That’s what the application says, which would lead you to to think that if you can have either or that there must be some benefit if you have independent contractors that you’re paying as well. But part of my rational, I’m thinking that the SP a interim rule is probably right on this issue is that independent contractors, even sole proprietorships, can apply for this loan forgivable loan program, the payroll protection program themselves, so they don’t have to rely on hiring entity to do it for them. They can apply for it directly. So we’re a little confusion. They’re not absolutely clear. I don’t think any of us can say with 100% that we know the truth. Oh,

[00:18:14.34] spk_3:
so at this stage, are you best leaving independent contractors out of your calculation of payroll for purposes of of the PPP just so that you don’t, you know, muddy up your application with a possible problem that would that would hold it up and then knowing that maybe you can go back when you get further guidance? If you’re If you are using a lot of 10 99 contractors, I think this is gonna

[00:18:15.17] spk_0:
be processed very quickly. And

[00:18:18.14] spk_3:
you think they’re gonna get you think they’re gonna gloss over issues like this in the beginning and very possibly clean up later?

[00:19:01.94] spk_0:
Yeah, very possibly. The problem with including the 10 99 contractors, Maybe Twofold. One is that if they weren’t intended to be included, will the government say that’s not gonna be forgivable? And is your budgeting based on you know, making these considering these grants rather than loans? And it very well could be that if you report independent contractors, they may just say No, this isn’t forgivable. The whole thing is alone. That’s one consideration. I don’t think as nonprofits think about this and end the limited amount of money that’s available. They shouldn’t count on this. They should definitely apply for it as quickly as possible. But they shouldn’t 100% count on it being available for them

[00:19:17.72] spk_3:
available and forgivable and unforgivable. That’s Yeah,

[00:19:21.63] spk_0:
that’s correct. That’s a really important. Okay, point. All

[00:19:56.70] spk_3:
right, balance, balance these things as you’re doing your application. You know, maybe get advice from a board member. Certainly legal counsel, if you have that. But but don’t you know, I don’t think you should let these potential problems hang you up and not not participate yet. Get your application in. You know, you might decide not to include your 10 99 contractors. Maybe that’s a decision you make. But you get it in at least for your for your payroll, your payroll, folks, your employees so that you know you could be covered for 10 weeks of, uh, 10 weeks of payroll. I mean, that’s that’s valuable. You get the get the darn thing in, make a decision and get it in one way or the other.

[00:20:22.40] spk_0:
Yeah, and have all the material available, including your independent contractor, information available. They’re asking for it in the application, so your bank will probably help determine whether that they’ll include that in the loan or not. Just bring it all in. Get your paperwork ready. I know everybody’s inundated with work that’s trying to keep things together. Leaders are, and this is worth the time.

[00:20:27.87] spk_3:
Yeah, is 10 weeks of payroll Yes, it’s

[00:20:30.10] spk_0:
time. It’s huge. So you’ve gotta put other things aside to get this done and get it done as early as possible because

[00:20:37.09] spk_3:
of you. You’re talking about the money. All right,

[00:20:39.48] spk_0:
get it, Get it ready early next week, if you can.

[00:20:56.04] spk_3:
Let’s move to the ER the i d l. You know, I hate jargon wth the economic injury disaster loan. Um, this is this is different. This is this is other types of expenses, Gene. Yeah. So it’s

[00:20:56.83] spk_0:
work. It’s a working capital loans essentially. So it could be used for payroll. But if you can’t apply for both in and put the same use for both, So if you ask for apparel protection program loan, you can also ask for an e idea alone for the same reason. But you could ask for a different reason for working capital in another other business costs that you’re gonna have. Um, and again, this is designed for small businesses and small nonprofits. But there’s only $10 billion that’s allocated here, So it’s a lot less than the other program. Yeah, but go ahead and apply for it as early as possible.

[00:21:45.37] spk_3:
Now, this has a great feature. Ah, $10,000 advance. That’s an advance on the loan. And that could be forgivable, right? And that’s it. Get their inherent

[00:21:52.04] spk_0:
right. Even if you get turned down. If you whether you get accepted or not, the $10,000 is years to keep.

[00:21:55.25] spk_3:
Oh, it’s whether you get turned out. So even if you’re approved for the loan, the $10,000 advance is still forgivable. Is that right?

[00:22:01.45] spk_0:
I I believe it needs not. It does not need to be repaid in either case.

[00:22:49.34] spk_3:
Okay, okay. My understanding of it. And they’re saying that this is gonna hit your bank within 3 to 5 days of your application. Now, I already applied for my business more than three days ago and I haven’t gotten it. Hasn’t been quite been five business days. It’s been four on. I haven’t seen it yet. So don’t Don’t be wedded to the 3 to 5 days it’s gonna cause they do ask for your bank account. They ask for your account number, they ask for your routing number. Um, uh, so they are intending to deposit this $10,000 advance quickly, But you know, you may not get it within the 3 to 5 days, but it is forgivable and and it is an advance on the loan, so it comes fast, and then the loan consideration is a longer term process, right? So

[00:23:38.35] spk_0:
it gets paid without them processing the loan at all. And you just get paid based on the application, which is fantastic, um, and, uh, again really something to take advantage of, but limited funds. So go in as early as possible. It’s great, tony, that you went in very early. People should should do that again early next week, and this is separate from the paycheck protection program. But if you do get accepted for the forgiveness of loan under the first act of paycheck protection Program, that we talked about that $10,000 under this sea idea will be counted against the cap on that. So just just note that you can’t double dip here. Okay? Okay, but the loan interest rate is 2.75%. Ah, and the maximum term is 30 years. It’s gonna be dependent upon your credit worthiness. So it follows more standard procedures and the paycheck protection lung, which again doesn’t matter what your credit is. Doesn’t matter if you have outstanding loans or not. The first, the 1st 1 that we talked about the forgivable loans disciplined

[00:24:03.84] spk_7:

[00:24:26.00] spk_3:
little tighter requirements. Lending requirements more more typical than then what? They waved for the payroll protection. Her act. Okay. Okay. Um, anything you want to add about economic injury, Disaster loan? The e i D. L again, it’s all this is all very well. Very clearly laid out. Big pictures on the S B, a dot gov website. Yes.

[00:24:35.48] spk_0:
I guess I’ll just say that it’s available also for debt payment. So your your ongoing business expenses, including debt payment.

[00:25:21.30] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, so we got some longer term relief. Uh, regarding the charitable income tax, the federal charitable income tax deduction that we, uh, you know, in the ER in the tax and, well, I don’t forget the formal name, Tax and Jobs Act. Ah, there was, uh, there was a reduction in the It took away an incentive for non itemizers to make charitable gif ts. And so And we’ve seen some hit there because the vast moon is that the vast majority the majority of people do not itemize their taxes. Uh, but we got some. We got some relief. So the

[00:27:17.08] spk_0:
tax cuts and jobs act from Thank you your job back from a couple of years ago raised the standard deduction, almost doubling it. The impact of that is it left about 8% of the taxpayers itemizers, so it’s a very, very small portion that actually get the benefit of a charitable contribution deduction. Because the charitable contribution deduction is one of the itemized deductions that you get. So more than 90% of taxpayers get no tax benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction until this act until the cars that came into play. Now, this is only a one year provisions, but I’m hope it’s a precursor for a change in the law to allow for a universal deduction so that there’s more equity across every taxpayer for getting some sort of benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction. So now it looks like it’s on Lee applicable to those generally who are a little bit more wealthier than others, that that have the ability to itemize, taxes, their deductions and get a tax benefit from that and this above the line deduction. How accountants refer to it It’s for $300 so anybody who makes a contribution can get $300 off if it’s to a qualifying charity. And some of the big charities that do not qualify donor advised funds. That’s kind of an important want to note. So don’t advice funds typically used by a little bit more wealthier individual that would tend to itemize taxes their tax returns. But that will not qualify. And that helps to get the money into the stream of operating charities quicker than those that are sort of keeping funds in accounts for years without a that payment respect provisions.

[00:28:33.24] spk_3:
I’m hoping that that $300 will increase in the future, but at least as you said, it’s a start. It’s It’s $300 up to $300 per per taxpayer. And it’s just for this year 2020 so that anyone itemizing or not, could get at least that much. $300 uh, removed from, you know, exempt from, um, you’re from your taxable income or, well, I’m getting into the weeds about how it’s calculated. Let’s not go there. You get it. You have a federal charitable income tax deduction, if you’re if you’re a non itemizers up to $300. So that’s something that when you when you are making your fundraising messaging again because we will get back to that, there will be times when will be the right time for you to talk about your needs and how your donors can help you fill. Those is maybe even these especially critical and unbudgeted needs. You can make it clear that, ah, that nine non itemizers among your donors can I get a federal income tax charitable deduction for up to $300. That may move some people. I

[00:29:32.64] spk_0:
think there’s an op ed. I can’t remember if it was in the Chronicle of Philanthropy or not earlier this week. Tony, that talked about the need to give to smaller charities at this time. Those were the ones that are gonna be really struggling. And if you really value a small charity, this $300 deduction that you wouldn’t have received before may be just what, you know, tip some people over to helping the small charities. And I’m hoping that that’s that’s true. I’m not sure what type of impact this will have for most people who are probably very fearful right now about where their income is coming from. A lot of unemployment going on right now. And there’s some chairs act provisions that deal with unemployment that we can talk about two. But it’s a scary time, but there will be a time when we’re back. Fundraising. Yeah, this is This is gonna be important, as is the case for a little bit, um, of the wealthier er taxpayer. That is capped by the amount of deductions that can take for charitable contribution. And the traditional cap had been 50% of their adjusted gross income. And if it was a cash donation, the tax cuts and job, Zack said. 60% of your adjusted gross income was your cap of how much you could take for charitable contribution deduction. So if you made $100,000 in adjusted gross income that you were going to report to the I. R. S, you could take up to a $50,000 or if it was a cash contribution to a charity $60,000 deduction off that amount, that was the limitation. This year, that limit is gone. So if you wanted to donate 100,000 of your $100,000 adjusted gross income, you could take a deduction for the full amount.

[00:30:21.51] spk_3:
Yeah, and this is this is a provision that’s mostly for the wealthy. Very few donors bump up against the limitations against there adjusted gross income in in their charitable deductions that it’s not very common, right. But we got some. We got some relief

[00:30:34.24] spk_0:
for older people who may not make very much an income anymore. That’s that’s maybe the primary beneficiary of this. To the extent that they have still disposable income to to provide for charitable giving.

[00:32:03.00] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, Gene. Sound good sounds get all right. I want to Thank you very much for doing this. Ah, you know, E. I usually give you a lot more Notice Thio to put a show together. So So thank you. Thank you very much for helping with this special episode. Because I know I know it helps our listeners. That’s that’s really the key. Thanks, Gene. Thanks so much. And I want to remind listeners that were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers Karl Mayer off Sam Lee Woods is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and the music you’ll be hearing shortly because it’s hard to put it in right over this when it’s on the fly. Special episode is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. Many thanks to Sam, Susan and Mark for helping me get this special episode out to you quickly and, of course, to Jean as well for your for your time on fly, Jean. Thank you. You with me? Next time for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Stay safe and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for April 3, 2020: Build Your Grantmaker Relationships

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Amy Berman, Caitlin Mitchell, Daniel Werner,  Anthony Sanchez & Christine Kang: Build Your Grantmaker Relationships
Our panel of grantmakers and a grantee reveal savvy strategies for building and maintaining relationships with your institutional funders. Foundations are made of people. How do you get close to them? This is a panel I moderated at The Foundation Center in New York City. Back when there was a The Foundation Center. It’s now (Originally aired February 16, 2018)




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[00:00:06.34] spk_0:

[00:00:58.72] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of follicular assis if you made me go lymph with the idea that you missed today’s show. Build your grantmaking relationships. Our panel of grantmakers and a grantee reveals strategies for building and maintaining relationships with your institutional funders. Foundations are made of people. How do you get close to them? This is a panel I moderated at the foundation center in New York City back when the foundation center existed. Uh, so, uh, going back couple of years? Um, that’s it. That’s all I got to say about that On Tony’s take to 20 ntc thank you’s were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here is the start of build your grantmakers relationships.

[00:05:40.86] spk_2:
We’re here to talk about collaboration and impact collaborate an impact. And our panel today is gonna focus in the collaboration. We’re gonna be talking about the relationship building of collaboration, that aspect of collaboration between non profits and the funders. All right, Most of you are in non profits potential grantees and most of our panel are the funders. So I have vidi admonished is too strong a word. But I have urged them to keep their advice, you know, relevant for potential grantees. How can each of you, in your non profits collaborate, build relationships with potential funders and even even when even when you get a no from a funder, what can you do after that? Our concern is that this is seen is proceeding to transactional. It shouldn’t be transactional. Your relationship with potential grant oars potential funders can be parallel to the work that you do in individual fundraising in each of your individual program. Because funders air made up institutions are made up of people and we know people fund what they believe in. So how can you build the relationship, keep the relationship strong even in the face of a rejection, and thereby collaborate with your potential funders which hopefully will become your funders. It’s my real pleasure to introduce our winning panel. Beginning with your on your left is Caitlin Mitchell. Caitlyn is a program and evaluation officer with Empower the Emerging Markets Foundation. Their work is around at risk youth in emerging markets in Colombia, Mexico and South Africa. Next, moving to your right. Dan Werner Dan is Social Justice program associate with the darkest foundation. Their priority is LGBT social justice, and we have Amy Berman. She’s senior program officer at the John John A Hartford Foundation, and their work is around improving, improving the health of older adults. Christine Kang, associate program manager at Project Sunshine. She is our sole Panelists who is among you apart part of the non profit 501 C three community, and their work at Project Sunshine is direct support to pediatric patients and their families. And Anthony Sanchez welcome. Anthony is corporate social responsibility manager at American Express. They’re three priorities around CSR or preserving historic places, developing new leaders and encouraging community service. Each of their fuller bios is outside. Please give a warm welcome Thio tunnel, please. Now, um important to know about about Christine and Anthony, they’re actually they could be holding hands. American Express that Americans press is funding project sunshine. So we brought we brought to the panel one team that is actively collaborating. All right, so keeping with you know what I I, uh I said is our purpose. Today, we’re gonna talk about relationship building, so I’m gonna I’m gonna start with The most basic basic question means we’ll start with Caitlin, creating strong relationships with funders again for our our audience of small and midsize non profits. How convey what’s one or two ideas that come to mind about creating that strong relationship at the outset at the beginning of a potential relationship?

[00:06:05.45] spk_3:
One unique thing about power is that we strive to and have the opportunity to fund an organization for up to 10 years. And I say that because when we enter a collaboration with new organization, there is not the idea that the organization is going to do everything perfectly, but there are a few characteristics that are really important to us. Um, the first I would say is just honest communication. I’ve had a number of grantees over. It’s inevitable that you will have adversity that something won’t go while ago won’t go as planned. And as a program officer in charge of managing our relationship, the most helpful thing to me in the kind of like star grantees versus ones that are a bit more difficult,

[00:06:33.49] spk_2:
we want to be star granted. Yes, we are just

[00:08:03.54] spk_3:
goes who communicate. Um, explain that. You know, there are delays in the project often most of the time for very legitimate reasons. And in addition to that, not only say, you know, unfortunately, Caitlyn, there’s been a delay or we weren’t able to do this activity but also have already problem solved around how to either overcome that challenge and or a different activity. So one grantee in Oaxaca, Mexico the end of their year long program, which was a leadership training for a group of 20 young people, was to take them to Mexico City. These are young people who had never really been out of the municipality in which they lived in right before. A few weeks before they were supposed to go to Mexico City, there was extreme violence in their community, and a lot of parents rescinded the permission for their young people or their their Children to go. So six of 18 that were planned to go were able to go to Mexico City. And that would be a big sort of like, uh, what’s going on. Um, but when they approached me, they said, Listen, only six of 18 could make it. We still went on the trip. They still did all the activities and we did a camping weekend closer to the community in which they live. They live where 16 of 18 were able to participate. We still went through the leadership training. We had hoped for the themes, the bonding that took place. Um, and they still had that sort of new and broadening horizons experience.

[00:08:25.48] spk_2:
And then we’re gonna have a chance to talk about some examples of impact. We’ll definitely get to that. So, yeah, basically, it sounds like you’re suggesting honesty. If there’s if there’s tribulations. If there’s trouble, let your funder. No. Yes, I have a non profit radio. I host this podcast. We gotta keep it to an hour. So we got a concise.

[00:08:56.14] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your order is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner. Uhh doom and Affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of non profit audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now more of build your grantmakers relationships.

[00:09:03.21] spk_2:
Then what? Aside from being honest about potential problems, adversity, What else? Where else could we do again? Looking to try and look at the outset way? We don’t even have a relationship yet. It’s up to you. But early on, at least

[00:09:14.04] spk_4:
No, that’s great. And I wish echo

[00:10:58.04] spk_6:
exactly what was just said. I would also say, um, from the outset, you’re a new grand T and speaking from From Position the foundation, right work and some of the other foundations that we partner with speak raving. But a new grantee is ah is a new, amazing relationship that your program officers excited about and the foundation is excited about. Um, another dynamic within foundations is to not overbear helicopter in and try toe add too much burden onto the grantee because we know that your work is paramount and we don’t wanna sit there and constantly be asking you for updates, because we know that you’ll probably be sending that in a report. So I’d say Take the onus and agency, too. Um, reach out to us and share updates in the interim. We love when we get interim updates. If you’re, um and I’ll keep it quick with this story. We have a grand t out in the rural area of California, and the rural areas of California have more of, ah, um, kind of economic climate of the US South. It’s not all L a and, um, the Bay Area. We get updates about winds that they get at the local school board level and within the local court systems. And we love hearing those stories, and we share them throughout our foundation on and it goes all the way to the board level. So I would just say, Be open and honest with us and feel free to reach out. And don’t think there, that they’re the big foundation black box and we will send them a report later.

[00:11:36.38] spk_2:
Yeah, awesome. Open honesty and even reporting when it’s not required. Correct? Right. You’re welcome. You’re welcome. Those okay? By the way, let me also remind each of you if you don’t have the mike. You can still speak. You’ll be hurt by this. This fancy omni directional. So you’re welcome. You should have it yet. But if you If you make some quick or something, you’ll be hurt. Okay? So keep it clean. It’s gonna be it’s gonna be heard. It’s gonna be preserved. Please let me burn. What? Advice for the starting that relationship real strong.

[00:13:27.24] spk_7:
So I’m gonna go to before you’re even a grantee. Andi, I agree with everything that I’ve heard so far. But before you’re a grantee, this is your opportunity to really understand who it is you’re gonna be meeting with. And you should be meeting with the foundation that you want to get to know or go to an event where you know that they’re going to be. And you should know enough about number one, their mission, the kind of grants that they do. Because when you talk about the work that you want to dio, it has to fit within the strategy of that foundation. But I’ll tell you, even more than that, you need to look at the language on that website. So you know, you’ve heard some hints here you’ve heard you know, words like workforce or words like social justice. Use those words in describing what you do. If your work relates to that area, convey what you d’oh and what your interests are within that kind of language and context that will make it easier for you and the person that you’re meeting with sometimes for the first time, to see where the fit ISS. Now maybe the person is going to get where the fit is without you having done your homework. But it’s your job to really make that fit apparent. So doing your homework in advance is really helpful. And one thing that I would suggest the first time that you meet with the foundation don’t hitch an idea because that one idea may be the thing that is not within what they can. D’oh. Let them get to know you and the range of things that you d’oh that will be the best entry. And one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they come in with a very specific pitch and their other things that we then didn’t get to talk about. And that’s the thing that would have been the right fit.

[00:14:11.20] spk_2:
Are you starting to hear the parallel between your individual giving and your potential institutional funding? Who goes into a meeting first, meeting with a potential donor and solicit? It doesn’t happen. You get You have to get to know them. Amy’s Amy’s advising. Not only do your research, but very well your first meeting not be the pitch and again parallel with your similar to the work you’re doing in the individual fundraising. It’s

[00:14:11.68] spk_7:
kind of like asking

[00:14:12.62] spk_3:
something you’d marry you

[00:14:23.94] spk_2:
wear. That really is talking. That’s what I’m doing wrong. I realized 55 years to hear that. All right, Christine, please.

[00:15:49.84] spk_5:
So I’m for our relationship with American Express and then other relationships. What we’ve learned is to is, and I think why we’ve been so successful is that as a non profit we take, we tried really hard to understand the funder. So and previously I actually was at a foundation, so I kind of have both lenses too. But it’s so it’s exciting to have the two perspectives, but I think it’s sometimes he deceived. Think of funders that oh, they have all this money and power, So I’m just going to go in and they must be able to do X, y and Z. I think there’s a lot of assumptions and and expectations that come with that relationship. But to think about the relationship from the point of view of how can I be helpful? What is tthe e funder going through? How can I How can we make their lives easier while also maximizing our impact? So it’s not just about I need this from younger. I want to get X. I get why. But okay. What? How can we create a conversation around? So for us at Project Sunshine, we focus on pediatric health care. So we always start with the child in mind. But we can’t do the work we’re doing without are amazing partners, our funders, our corporate partners. And so, while making sure that they understand our mission and the work we’re doing to ask them, okay, So that how can we make your life easier? So I think starting from that.

[00:16:34.20] spk_2:
And doesn’t that sound like something you would ask? Maybe not in those exact words, but parallel again in your individual fundraising. What is it about your work? What is it? I’m sorry What is it about our work that interest you that motivates you? That moves you? Um, and what’s in terms of suggestion? How can we make your life easier? Are there different methods of giving that we could talk about? Maybe a plan to give to makes more sense for you. Maybe it’s structured over a period of years. Maybe it’s a one time outright gift. Maybe it’s a gift of something other than cash gift in kind someone some other kind of asset. So you know, again the suggestion. How could we make your life easier? You’re always thinking about how you can help your donors to make gifts to, you know, see these parallels Anthony, please.

[00:17:35.63] spk_4:
So just to add what toe What Christine said, I think it’s important to set expectations, right? So on the corporate side, I mean most CSR teams in a corporation, it’s probably a group of 6 to 8 people at American Express. It’s a it’s a team of 10 and we’re basically responsible for engaging over 50,000 employees. So it’s hard to do that right. So we look for partners who can help us. We can help them with their objectives and to, you know, help with their mission. But on the other hand, we also expect them to engage our volunteers, right. So setting that expectation is important because it’s a win win situation. So we’re helping the non profit achieve their goals. But we’re also engaging our volunteers. So I think setting an expectation upfront, it’s super helpful,

[00:17:47.98] spk_2:
and your collaboration involves a lot of volunteer work, a lot of service work by American Express employees. We’re gonna get to that that grants aren’t only in the form of money by any means. Let’s open it up now we’re gonna come back, come to questions periodically through time together. How about questions on this initial round of

[00:18:10.23] spk_3:
Hi, Um, I was wondering how open funders are, too, like meeting new people like cold calls, your email or phone call like how approachable would you say you

[00:18:10.85] spk_2:
are? How open to new relationships. This is perfect. It’s exactly We’re talking about what you know, with the beginning phases of the relationship, how open are you to increase? Sounds like everybody has something. Say, uh, Amy, Good Michael. So pick them. I can’t.

[00:19:03.12] spk_7:
It’s it’s really important. That’s a big part of my job. Yeah, I’m constantly meeting people, you know, My area is around aging. It’s around care of older adults. So I am on the road as a national thunder. I’m on the road, probably almost every week. I am going and meeting with people. They have very easy access to May. If people are committing their life toward doing this work, I’m committing my life toward them because my foundation’s mission is to do this as well. So I’m completely accessible.

[00:20:26.94] spk_6:
Damn. Um, yeah, I would I would say that in our experience, we are one of the largest LGBT funders. So we get a lot of requests from us based for global Funders Well, from US based organizations and we Similarly, when we have a team of of six or so so we just don’t have the band with. And one of the one of the things I hate about my job is knowing that me and my team really don’t have the bandwidth, even though our way have open on initial funding concept submission so anyone can send them in. We all do look at them, but we don’t have the bandwidth to have that special touch and tell people. Oh, but this local foundation in Seattle area is doing X y Z, so I would say, Just keep at people. Find out where those funders in those spaces go. When we attend conferences and other things, you catch people in a different mindset. They’re not running the meetings. They’re not doing their grant right up. So I would say catching people in different spaces, as opposed to the cold call is one avenue you could you could employ. Okay?

[00:20:59.46] spk_3:
And I would just say as a both of do in a don’t is because in power, we are open to hearing from from perspective organizations. But do your homework ahead of time and make sure so empower supports work in 15 emerging market countries. We say that on our website, we list the country’s make sure it’s a country that you work in is one that we support. We support work with at risk youth ages 10 to 24. If you’re working with the elderly or with Children, we’re not the right organization. So in general, Aziz was saying, we tried to respect our grantees time, and hopefully the idea would be that then sitting organizations or are granted partners will also do their part, too. Respect our time

[00:21:20.74] spk_2:
if I tell you that initial

[00:21:52.69] spk_4:
really agree with that? Obviously, like I mentioned before, it’s very hard to, you know, answer every email, answer every inquiry. So doing research. I think our website is really good at providing. As tony mentioned, we support three different pillars, but it it’s a good place to start because it provides a list off sample projects that we’ve supported. There’s also an eligibility quiz. So going back to what hates that, um, it helps you figure out whether it would be a good match or not, because through that eligibility quiz, you know, if you were to select, you know you’re in a place like Arkansas where we don’t have a large employer employee base. That probably wouldn’t be a match because we like to support organizations and specific regions, especially, you know, where we have a large employees head cow and and, you know, our biggest market. So doing research is it’s super important.

[00:23:26.56] spk_2:
Yeah, So you’ve heard this a couple of times now. So what do we do on the individual side called prospect Research? You got to do it on the institutional side to you don’t want to embarrass yourself by, uh, it’s a failing to send a letter of inquiry. If that’s part of the That’s the first step that a funder once so don’t miss step by not doing your research. Let’s move the relationship on a little bit now. We’re not We’re not at the inquiry stage. We’re not at the opening stage now. We’re funding your, uh you’ve selected grantee. How can we keep the relationship strong now? We already heard Report when it’s not necessary to keep us involved. Some steel. You can’t repeat your idea. You gotta come with multiple ideas. That’s why you’re here. Way also hurt. Share adversity, tribulations, difficulties along the way. What other advice? Again? Keeping the relationship strong. Now that we are funded, who wants toe? Anybody could start. Okay,

[00:24:25.24] spk_3:
11 thing that could be a challenge. But I think is also easy to find. A potential volunteer for that really makes a difference. For us is around honestly high quality pictures of the work that you’re doing if you have a really active social media page and the reason is that we are not in and down foundation. So we report our donors about the work that we’re supporting, and it’s really helpful. And unfortunately, some of the grand teeth like it featured the most are those that have really great documentation of their own work. So not every organization can hire it’s owned photographer, that’s for sure, but I think that’s a good news. That may be a volunteer who wants to come learn more about your program. If they have, you know, photography skills could be a really great way. Just just yeah, raise awareness about the work that you’re doing. And, yeah,

[00:25:14.34] spk_2:
can I suggest that maybe it doesn’t always. It doesn’t have to be high production value to be moving and show impact. I’ve seen cases where, uh, people who are benefiting from the organization’s work do you sell do selfie videos and, you know, with some really simple editing tools that could be really compelling so they might go on for 12 minutes or so. That’s too long, but I guess the point is it doesn’t have to be high production value necessarily to convey impact, use your social media. Obviously, we all know how important video is how compelling that could be. Storytelling through pictures as well. Uh, you know, let them let them know what the work is that they’re paying for. Please, Dad.

[00:25:50.29] spk_6:
No, no, Andi, keep it quick. Might sound very simple, but I know when I was in very early in my career non profit that didn’t have much of a development office capacity. But now I know being on the other end how important. Make sure your funders are on your email list. So when you send out everything about programmatic aspects or big announcements that, you know, all of your funders are getting those updates. That way you could focus on your work. And that way, funders are also updated.

[00:26:21.95] spk_2:
Follow them on Twitter. Follow your funders on Twitter. I mean, it sounds basic, but it might get overlooked. Facebook, you know, fan their facebook page, etcetera, etcetera connect in ways other than what? Uh, what? They’re what they’re requirements are for, you know, quarterly or semi annual reporting or something, you know, connect beyond that again. Relationship building. Right. You’re doing it on the individual side. Do it on the institutional side as well. You got something in my wife’s name is Amy. So you suffer. I don’t feel like I’m sorry. I

[00:27:09.51] spk_7:
Okay, so the other thing is about your expectation for us. And you know, it’s important that you have an expectation for us. There are people. There are foundations that, you know, everything kind of goes into a black box. When, when I’m developing a proposal, I actually work with the grantee on the development of that proposal. So I’ll edit it. It’s not a black box, it’s an intentional act. So once we’ve decided we’re going forward, it is a very intentional act. But once you have the grant, the other thing is to consider me as a part of the team. So include us in convening Sze, invite us. We may or may not be able to go, but we also have the ability to write and speak. I’ve given congressional testimony on behalf of grantees. You know, we are We can provide you with more than just grants support. We can actually provide you with elbow grease. We can be helpful to you. We can even bring other funders to the table. So the more you engage with us as a grantee, the more helpful I can be for you.

[00:27:37.28] spk_2:
Excellent examples. Excellent. Thank you, kid. You wanna you wanna add?

[00:28:10.43] spk_5:
So I know we’ve been talking about social media and videos and high tech stuff. So what I think, though, that that’s very helpful, I think. And I don’t know, old fashioned is just a meet in person. So for Anthony and I had breakfast today before we came here and we try to make it a point to remember that for organizations, companies that there’s a person there that you’re talking thio cool. Maybe just got married or so to to also build a relationship around the person, not just the institution. It’s a thing.

[00:28:46.14] spk_2:
Yeah, said earlier. Institutions are made up of people. I mean, how how plainer can we make the comparisons t your individual fundraising program? It’s the same. It’s the same strategy keeping, keeping, informed, inviting. You invite your major donors to things invite your institutional. Your funders, like Annie said they may or may not come, but the invitations should always be out there. They should be getting all your press. All your tweets, et cetera. You know I can’t drive home way

[00:30:43.69] spk_1:
need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software. Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at now. Time for tony Steak, too. The 20 NTC. The non profit technology conference was terrific. I hope I’m pre recording this a month before NTC. Thanks so much to Cougar Mountain for sponsoring non profit radio at the conference. I do hope that the booth we shared did not get torn down because you forgot to pay the bill. I doubt that that happened. Um, I’m sure I reminded you that the payment was due, and I’m sure you hadn’t paid it. At least I hope, Assuming that you did, I I do. Thank you so much. So let’s assume that you did so thank you to Cougar Mountain and the guests, all the many guests that I will have captured, uh, last year it was 70 knows more than seventies like 80 85 in 36 different panels or something so comparable numbers. Thank you. Thank you to the guests who took time at 20 ntc to come by and be interviewed for non profit radio. And of course, you listening. We’ll get the benefit of that for months to come. I’m gonna have 20 NTC panels. Thio play. Thanks so much to the intense staff. They’re always accommodating. And this year, I’m sure well, have been It was that the police Kwame Perfecto will of a future perfect will have been perfect. We’ll have been very, very accommodating as they always are. So thank you to any sample, Ward CEO and all the staff at n 10 that is. Tony. Take ju. Now let’s go back to build your grantmakers relationships.

[00:31:46.89] spk_4:
So on the corporate side, it’s about being, you know, you guys being flexible, right? Because, yeah, I can support you through grantmaking and providing volunteers. But there’s also other opportunities, so I always make it. Um, I always make the effort of engaging non profits where our affinity groups at American Express, because that if your woman empowerment organization, um, there’s always a way to connect with employees and other ways, right? So will offer volunteers, but We can also bring awareness to our employees. And they could make individual donations through our employees giving campaign or through our dollars for doors program. Or maybe it’s an opportunity for you to come in and speak to a group of women and just bring more awareness. So the relationship doesn’t just have toe. And at grantmaking were always big, expanding that relationship and helping you as much as we can.

[00:32:11.25] spk_2:
All right, this is a time we’re gonna turn thio storytelling I want I want to turn to some examples of how these strong relationships have impacted work on the ground. You used any example? You like one of your one of your grand T organizations? Let’s start with Anthony and Project Sunshine and And why don’t you talk about the work that goes beyond as you were just saying, Perfect intro Don’t be on money.

[00:34:07.81] spk_4:
So, um, we started our partnership with projects ensuring back in 2010 and our biggest challenge at that moment was engaging those. I mean, we’re American Express. We have several call centers throughout the U. S. And it’s harder to engage those employees who are, you know, their job is basically being on the phone, being in a call center. So we were looking for ways to engage these volunteers because, let’s be honest. Most employees want to go out and volunteer, but the challenge is finding the time, right. So not every employee has the luxury of going on park and planting a tree for four or five hours. So we thought, Why not start this partnership with ah, Project Sunshine? Who? Christine can talk more about what they dio create these care kids that are prepared in house. Esso employees don’t necessarily have to leave the office to volunteer. Um, it only takes one hour. We started our partnership back in 2010. Immediately. We got a huge response because again people felt like they were able to give back without having to invest so much time. Um, fast forward. I think two or three years later, the success of the program helped us build a case to go back to our leaders and say, Hey, this is a great partnership. Were engaging more volunteers. We expanded then to other locations. Um, and we’ve been partners now for seven years, and we’ve engaged over 7000 employees in the last couple of years, and we’re now internationally. Last year we started a partnership with Project Sunshine. So it’s finding ways of thinking of all your employees population, right? So those who don’t have the flexibility and I think that’s what works well that projects on China heard the challenge that we were having. And they did a great job at finding a solution for us,

[00:35:04.40] spk_2:
especially if you’re talking to corporations. Think broadly again, of course, because we said your first meeting is not gonna be the solicitation. You’re gonna make some enquiries. So after you’ve done your research on the Web site, maybe talk to some other organizations that you know they’re funding. However, however you go about your research, especially talking to corporations, you want to think about volunteerism because Anthony’s point is, and please do want a volunteer, and that often is a part of what companies want to give. So it’s more than the money, especially not only limited to companies, certainly, but especially companies don’t think just about, you know, dollars. Okay, so So how are your work? Is pediatric patients supporting them and their families? And how are these sick kids and their families benefiting from

[00:37:57.10] spk_5:
that great question. So we the healthcare landscape is constantly changing, and oftentimes the child, the patient, they’re stressed and terrified parents. They’re siblings kind of get missed. And so what we do is mobilize volunteers to really provide and come around the child that the parents, the family and to treat them the way that if we were the child, the parents or the sibling, we will wanna be treated. And so we do a number of different programs we provide in hospital based parties, bringing the joy of childhood into the into the hospital setting, letting kids be kids what we do. That’s one part, the part that we work with American Express and a lot of our corporate volunteers with its Are Sending sunshine program. So the Sending Sunshine program really what’s designed kind of with, I mean American Express was a big part of that. It’s office based volunteering, so volunteer corporate volunteers in their own offices get to Assam. Assemble these craft kids, so that’s a standalone craft that we sent to over 300 hospitals and medical facilities so that if you mean you can imagine if you’re a child and you just broken leg, You’re in emergency room. You’re gonna be there for four hours and you have a lot of stressed out doctors, child life specialists. They able to grab these and give give them to a child to decrease their anxiety, to decrease their even boredom to the end. To the the sibling who may be with them and and the care giver is a moment to breathe. So that’s one of the the activities. We also create these things called Sergi Dolls, which are medical play dolls. And we’ve make there’s research behind them about using these dolls to help empower Children to understand the treatment that they will be going through. And when I first joined projects on China’s sick does, this is really make a difference. And the overwhelming answer from our partners is yes, we have a wait list then. So clearly there’s a need there and the and that the need for on the hospital side for these Children, families that it’ll line so well with our corporate partners. I think it’s it’s kind of it’s amazing this win win that Anthony was talking about so over, I think with the last time we checked over 45,000 Children. Families received these craft kids or Sergio dolls that American Express employees put together, and one recently was around the hurricanes. So the we had sent American Express has a South Florida region regional area and Soviet made a bunch of craft kits sent them to a hospital suspected by the hurricane. We received this amazing quote phone call for my child life specialists who said You saved our lives. So basically, American Express volunteers saved our lives because we received, I think, something like 100 and influence of 150 Children, families who were clearly distraught and stressed. And the first thing they did was grab as many of these yellow projects on Shane bags that our volunteers put together as they could and went from chaos to calm. These were her words. Chaos to come immediately.

[00:38:24.14] spk_2:
Christine, how do you convey that message to American Express that they would feel the impact of their work?

[00:38:37.72] spk_5:
So we did have a phone call with Anthony, and we do try to. So we have a great development team that does a lot of social media and we’re trying to try to provide photos, reporting all the things that we had talked about on this panel so that we could make sure that our corporate incorporate partners feel that yes. So we did for that specific one. We were on the phone

[00:38:53.30] spk_2:
and then Anthony, you fed it back to the actual employees. Actually,

[00:39:45.87] spk_4:
it’s such a satisfaction, right on our employees and those who volunteer because you see the immediate impact, right? So it’s not like going on like a community center and painting a wall blew right. There’s really not much impact that you see there. Yeah, you paint the wall. But with these care kids, you know, if 100 volunteers create 1000 kids, you know that they’re going to get to 1000 kids who need them. So every time I post the Projects on Shine Project on our Internet site, it sells out in a matter of like five minutes like out get flooded with e mails because again, it’s a good way for employees. Thio just donate a now our of their time and see the immediate impact that these attacks

[00:39:53.44] spk_2:
I could tell Caitlin is burning toe and something will come back.

[00:40:51.11] spk_3:
I just wanted Thio say this is an example of where that sounds like a phenomenal volunteer opportunity, where it’s both beneficial, and it’s a meaningful volunteer opportunity that’s beneficial not just for the volunteer but also for the organization. I just want to say this is one of those moments or feel free to push back against your donor, where if they’re really excited and want to send volunteers your way, and it’s actually going to create more of a headache than be helpful or if you work in a context where it’s not appropriate. Tohave Caitlyn as, ah White, 32 year hold American Coming in, I’m thinking internationally, but with at risk youth are more sensitive populations. Feel free to say no because all too often I think organizations, especially if it’s a donor asking feel required to take on those volunteers. And sometimes it’s it’s more trouble than it’s worth there,

[00:42:41.06] spk_6:
Um, a shining of ah story that wouldn’t repeat that some of the themes that we’ve already heard and I, um, I’m reminded of a grand T partner of ours, that it was actually same grantee that I mentioned working in the rural areas of California. Uh, They’ve been a grantee of ours for 33 years. So not, you know, like a historic one for us, but not a baby. And we have had an amazing relationship. They send us that the updates we’ve met curated this relationship. We took a tour of the Central Valley of California. Seeing all the work they’ve done. We bought our CEO of our vice president. We met Dolores Huerta, and we really got to see their work after that site visit. You can tell that the relationship kind of tipped a little bit. Uh, you could tell that we had a shorthand. We had a common connection and fast forward to two weeks ago. The head of the project is doing great work and they’re trying to scale their program. We shopped this pro, this program director to the Ford Foundation to the Open Society Foundation and to an anonymous donor that works in this space. We introduced them thio like mine and thunders that we know here in New York City because we know that their work is so amazing. You know, in the rural areas of California, kind of far away from big foundation institutions, except for the California Endowment. So that’s that’s a story that I that I love, that I don’t think that maybe a lot of grantees would think to say, Please introduce us to your other funders. You might think that is a no overreach or going past, but I think you can get a read on that relationship once it reaches that tipping

[00:42:55.05] spk_2:
point. That’s something I’m sure a lot of organizations you wouldn’t even think to do. Introduce us to your other funders.

[00:43:32.35] spk_1:
It’s time for our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered. They pick up the phone for you when there’s news that you need to comment on because they got the relationship with you so that you stay relevant in your work. Including they are former journalists at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They understand the community. There are turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for build your grantmakers relationships.

[00:43:37.53] spk_2:
You got a back story.

[00:46:35.53] spk_7:
I do have an impact story. So, um, in the foundation world, the most popular areas to fund our the arts, education and Children, and my foundation does not fund that. In fact, out of 105 1000 foundations in this country, only six air primarily focused on older adults. So very, very small group of funders that do work nationally in this space. And we really care about creating a JJ friendly health systems. You know, how are they gonna be responsive to older adults caring about serious illness and end of life and also about family caregivers? So one of the grants is here in New York City. It’s the center toe to advance palliative care. It trains people to provide care and make sure that they haven’t the obscure planning so that their, you know, their goals are what the care is that they get at the end that they relieve suffering. They make sure that people have the care that they need when they go through very serious illness, even when they’re gonna get better from serious illness to help them get through that serious illness. And so the kinds of impact this work has had, um, today palliative care is in roughly 90% of hospitals nationally. That’s huge. It only came to this country in the 19 eighties. We have been a long and sustained funder in this space, and we may be slowed a warm, but we tend to be a longer and sustained thunder around impact. Theo. Other thing was there were very few funders that were interested in this space. Does anybody remember the death panel conversations? Okay, well, thankfully, we’re not having a lot of those today. But there were very few funders that we’re doing focused work in this area. So I decided I was going to start having calls. This was not with the grantee. This was on behalf of the grantee. I wanted to create a safe learning space for foundations that might be thinking about this. They wanted to learn. And so what’s happened with that? We now have a very large collaborative. People are more strategic. They know people that they want to fund. We fund together some things we fund next to each other and other things. Things past year, about $80 million in new funding was in this space. And this is on behalf of the grantee, the grant. He could not have had those calls, but it was necessary to begin Thio bring people into the space. And now they’re coming out of the woodwork. We actually did a grant to give somebody money to help coordinate this group. You know, coordinate the calls and everything else. So Thean pact is huge. The thing only other thing about this was about seven years ago. I was diagnosed with stage four cancer, and I had been doing this work long before. My, you know, this is my my area. But then I made a decision. How could I make use of the situation to further healthy grantee? So I’ve been writing speaking. We’ve put on congressional briefings together. Eso any other way that I could be helpful. I am definitely shoulder to shoulder with the grantee.

[00:47:00.14] spk_2:
Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. Back story. And then we’re gonna come back to the come back to you. It’ll be peppermint lifesavers. Time very shortly after Caitlin’s Kitten’s got an example.

[00:49:33.10] spk_3:
Yes, and I would just go back to some power can fund your question around. Um, like what to do once you’re already a grantee and kind of in the medium term and how it can be really helpful for the relationship. So just to say one of the key criteria we look for when determining whether or not we’re going to fund an organization for a 2nd 1/3 a fourth year. Is this idea around? Are they a learning organization? And by that we mean a couple of things on one. Um, really, The most important is like I said, we don’t expect programs to go perfectly. There’s challenges that come up. Youth are dynamic and changing issue areas arise but really impactful. Grantees that we have in great relationships and the really impactful programming are constantly learning and adapting and analyzing what went well, what it’s our strange what’s an area for improvement and even again, the same grand T in Oaxaca, Mexico. So in the course of their programming found that the middle school population that they were working with were engaging in self harm and cutting, and they recognized we as an organization don’t have expertise on this. But they themselves reached out, identified an organization in Canada that focuses on this and then came to us and said, Listen and our next grant, we would love to include a line item to have training on this to better serve our young people, Um, and with a learning organization, I would just say also openness to feedback. We think, you know, we support programs across the globe and sometimes see similar challenges in best practices. So it’s not a donor driven by any means. But being open to feedback is really important, even if you don’t necessarily take it on. And then also, with this learning organization comes which some silly but playing well with others. So we often ask grantee organizations what other organizations are doing great work in their field. And it’s a red flag for us if they if they come back and say no one else is doing it as well as we are, which has happened. And, uh, yeah, so I would say, being a learning organization playing while collaborating with other service providers. It’s something that we look for, provides

[00:50:07.53] spk_2:
Question occurs to me based on what you and Amy and we’re saying, especially if you’re being funded. What about? So if none of your funders ask, can we meet your other funders? If you’re If you’re a grantee? What about staying? We’d like you to meet our other funders. What about the grantee putting that those that possibility together. Is there a downside we’re talking about? Could there be okay? So So the grantee could think of it. If none of the funders do, there’s no Doesn’t seem to be a downside to that. And just just a couple of sentences. Don’t do this. Stop your top. Don’t do this.

[00:50:27.51] spk_7:
Yeah. The worst thing that you could do is when you have an opportunity to get funding to listen to the thunder about what it is you should be funding. In other words, don’t move from your mission. If it’s not helpful to your mission and strategy, it’s a disaster.

[00:50:52.71] spk_5:
Okay, I’m gonna just I’ll answer this from my previous foundation experience. One thing was don’t get angry when you get like when you get defunded. So there was one of the things that was very difficult was when I was for a funder is to not fund again. That’s very hard, I think from I’m sure everyone here knows and to have to send out a declination is also hard to have that he met with anger and accusation. Not great.

[00:51:24.79] spk_4:
I would say. Don’t go into your automatic pitch right? Because we have objectives. You have objectives. So it goes just back to what we’ve been saying doing research and not just assuming all American Express is a company with so much money that we would necessarily support. I’m sure your mission is important, but it might be something that we’re not. Um it’s not within our government that we would support. So not just going into your pitch and assuming

[00:52:03.76] spk_6:
that. Okay, Miss Deadlines, this deadlock don’t miss deadlines. You can ask for an extension. Don’t do it. 11. 59 the day of, um, but my in my over four years in the land to be I know exactly those organizations that I think you’re gonna fall through the cracks unless our team reminds them. And I feel like that’s a perception issue happens with individuals. You won’t know that one person that made a bad impression in your family or at work and that perception than permeates it and then stays. So just have a schedule. Have reminders, have your assistance, remind you whatever but yeah, don’t.

[00:52:30.84] spk_2:
Please. There’s so many technical tools that can help you do everything from wake up to know when to go to sleep Everything in between. So use the use, the app to use tools. We have,

[00:53:01.58] spk_3:
um, to one I would say is don’t fall off the place. The face of the earth. So we’ve had some grantees just disappear. Yeah, and and not communicating, I would say, Even if it’s a one line, you know, again in Mexico, right after the earthquake, we reached out to guarantees. How are you doing? You know, we’re in the trenches, but thank you for thinking of us. Boom. Or, you know, where is your report? I’m sorry. There’s been delays. Just keep the communication open.

[00:53:12.25] spk_2:
So please, let’s join me in thanking

[00:53:31.56] spk_0:
way. Christine Damn Warner. And I hope you see

[00:53:37.69] spk_2:
all the connections between your individual fundraising and your newly invigorated institutional fund raising program

[00:54:36.35] spk_1:
next week. Now that you’ve got great grantmakers relationships, it’s terrible. Charge your grants. Fundraising with John Hicks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by cooking meth and software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the lying producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is that Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Believe me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

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[00:00:43.04] spk_1:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and T. C. That’s the 2020 non profit technology conference. Regrettably, the conference in Baltimore had to be canceled, but we’re persevering virtually via zoom, sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guest today is Sarah Durum. She is CEO of Big Duck and add dramatic Sarah. Welcome.

[00:00:50.64] spk_4:
Hi, tony. Thanks for having me on the show today.

[00:00:52.67] spk_1:
I’m glad it worked out that we could get together. Virtually, uh, not being able to do it together in Baltimore. Um, how are you doing? You’re in. You’re in Middle Massachusetts? Yeah.

[00:01:04.19] spk_4:
I’m a native New Yorker, and I live and work in New York, but I have decamped to Massachusetts. Everything is fine here. Thank you for asking. I hope you’re well too. I

[00:01:56.34] spk_1:
am. I mean, my beach house in North Carolina. The beaches across the street, the beaches are open so I can walk there because we don’t get crowds on beaches. It’s to the town is too small. Nobody’s heard of it. Which is which is why I’m here. Um, so we’re gonna you know, NTC brought us together. Uh, but I’m gonna release this as a special episode of non profit radio because you’re deep expertise in communications, and you’re you’re you’re NTC Topic was creating kick ass major donor communications. Uh, with your permission, I’m gonna convert that creating kick ass Corona virus Communications, please. Okay. Okay. And we’re gonna We’re recording this, Ana Wednesday, March 24th. And,

[00:02:03.94] spk_2:
uh, we’re gonna look for release on next Monday. Whichever day the But everyone is, that looks

[00:02:32.34] spk_1:
like the 30. I think that’s the 30th of March. Gonna look to get this out. Um, all right. And I’m gonna you leave it to you. What? Where? How should we? Let’s let’s talk about communicating with our donors because there’s gonna be a time when fundraising is the message. I don’t think that’s the time. This is the time now. But what should we be saying to our committed donor? People are already giving to us. We’re not trying to acquire anybody new at this stage. Um, what should we be saying to people who are already

[00:02:34.47] spk_2:
loyal to us?

[00:02:35.95] spk_4:
Well, first of all, I love that you’re starting with this question of, you know, the people that are already loyal tow us. I think there’s what should we be saying? How should we be saying it, and when should we be saying it? And certainly starting with your base is one of the most important things you can do right now. What you should be saying, I think, depends a lot on your mission and how affected your donors and the audiences you serve might be by what’s going on right now. If you’re in an area that’s directly affected, then you want to speak to that very directly. But if you’re not, you may want to be candid about what you’re working on and what’s going on in other ways.

[00:03:24.50] spk_1:
What’s going on? Can it be stories about where your how your employees air faring? You’ve got parent employees. You’ve got some maybe can’t work remotely. People do face to face meetings, maybe with beneficiaries. They can’t do that. You know, if the story’s gonna be like insider baseball,

[00:03:53.67] spk_4:
it can and it can’t. I did an interview recently with Seville Me hand are who’s one of the leaders at CCS fundraising, and we were talking about exactly that. We were agreeing in our conversation that in some cases the first wave of communications should be the insider. Baseball. How is your team faring? But a lot of organizations already done that. That happened in Week one. For most organizations. The second wave of communications after you send the Here’s how we’re faring really should be. I think about your community and about your work and, um, and beyond that, talking about what’s going on in the future and how you’re navigating. I mean, there there are, You know, there are five or so principles that we’ve been advising our clients to use in terms of their tone and style, and I think a lot of it is about adapting those principles of tone and style in a few ways. But the other piece that I think is perhaps most critical is that you, um, you adapt your communications to be much more iterative, both in terms of how you plan and what you’re doing. In other words, if you had a communications plan or strategy, probably it’s needs to be updated on a weekly basis every week. Who are you communicating with? What are you trying to communicate and what will feel appropriate from a tone and style point of view for those donors to hear from you this week, given what’s happening?

[00:05:09.54] spk_1:
Um, how about those five principles? What are those?

[00:05:13.44] spk_4:
Well, so the 1st 1 is to be authentic. One of the questions that we’ve been getting a lot is should I be candid with our donors about the financial hit that our organization is taking? And our advice is yes, you should be. You’re gonna You’re gonna need Thio. Ask them for support and you don’t wantto paint a rosy picture If that’s not the reality for your organization.

[00:05:46.74] spk_1:
You know, I think a great example of that is any sample Ward CEO, then 10 Great exit. D’oh! You know, you see her wiping tears from her eyes in her video explaining that that conference is 62% of their annual revenue and now they’ve not only lost that revenue, but they have penalties to pay for the contracts that they’re breaking. So you know, she was I think that it’s a great example and absolutely great read with authentic, heartfelt, sincere, You know, she’s she’s tearful and she didn’t do it take to

[00:06:11.74] spk_4:
yet? No. Amy is a great example of an authentic leader in all contexts and particularly if you haven’t watched those videos on the end 10 website where she really you know, day by day she was navigating, making a decision about when to cancel the conference and how to do that? That’s That’s arguably, I would say, the best example. I’ve seen OVEN or organization leader being proactive and authentic, and

[00:06:45.12] spk_1:
in 10 dot org’s I listeners know her very very well. She’s on the show every month, but in 10 dot organ yet you feel her our anguish. You feel it’s an excruciating decision, but yeah, I mean, that has to be made.

[00:07:11.04] spk_4:
Yep, and Amy Amy is also an example. Those videos are a great example of some of the other tips that we’ve been giving people. The second is to use your values, use the values of your organization if you if you look at the way and he did it in that communications. She talks about the values of the community, the values of connection that they they share with each other, and she really leans into the organization’s values to guide her decision making, and we’re encouraging all organizations to do that. She is also very human. And that’s another thing that I think is really important right now.

[00:07:25.09] spk_5:
There are There are

[00:07:26.39] spk_4:
e mails that we are all getting that are not at all acknowledging the situation that people are in and they don’t feel good right now. They feel inappropriate. So it’s okay to be human. It’s okay to reach out and call your major donors and say to them, How are you doing? Here’s how I’m doing and make a human connection. The compassion that we express for each other right now is what’s gonna bind us together

[00:08:20.74] spk_1:
and especially exactly That’s the point. I was just gonna say, Yeah, this is what holds us together is our common humanity. And, you know, not only is it okay, I don’t You go out of your way to preserve your humanity in the face of uncertainty, Financial loss, both personal and professional. You know, the organizational level and on a personal level, those of us who have their own businesses, you know you have employees go out of your way to preserve your humanity.

[00:09:07.53] spk_4:
Absolutely. One of one of my employees at Big Duck, a copywriter named Lila Dublin just wrote a piece that we are going to probably post in our block in the next couple of days. It should be live by the time your show airs about words to avoid during during this crisis. Delilah writes a very popular blogger every year called words to avoid in the nonprofit sector. But this one is the sort of Corona virus specific set of words to avoid, and one of the words she recommends avoiding is social distancing. She talks in this piece about how what we want to engage in right now is physical distancing. We don’t need social distancing. We actually need social connections more than ever. So So let’s let’s work on staying apart physically. But actually with your donors staying in touch and being human and on, um, making that personal connection with them is is what’s gonna weave the social capital you have with them, um, in an even tighter way, which is which is, you know, whether or not they’re going to donate to you or have the capacity to donate you right now is just the right thing to do.

[00:09:33.64] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. What’s where Do radio people find that that blogged?

[00:09:40.41] spk_4:
Uh, it’s going to be on big duck dot com. And if you go to insights, um, so that’s big duck dot com slash insights. You’ll see that you’ll see the blog’s. We also have recorded videos about crisis communications right now. How to facilitate great meetings online. We’ve been posting a lot of free content over the past few weeks designed to help nonprofits adapt to this. This environment.

[00:10:04.56] spk_1:
Yeah. Thank you. I’m trying to do the same. I have been doing the same. Um, what else after after be human.

[00:10:57.24] spk_4:
So Okay, so be authentic, be human. Use your values. And the last one I want to emphasize is the importance of adapting for the audience you’re communicating with. You know, in the marketing and communications world, the jargon for this is segmentation. But you don’t have to have the capacity to segment to think about how to adapt for your audience. What I what I really mean by that is, if you’re going to send out an email, if you’re going to send out your you know, end of your appeal, I mean, a lot of organizations with fiscal years that begin July 1 or are asking this question right now, you know what’s gonna change in my year end appeal? You know, think about who’s on that list and what tone is appropriate for that. So eso in a, um, webinar I gave recently about crisis communications. One of the people who was participating chatted in, um, an example. They said, You know, I’ve been very offended. I’ve seen a lot of emails going out that say things like, Well, you know, on Lee, X percent of people will actually become sick from Corona virus. But our disease or our issue effects way more than that. You know, that’s an example of the kind of communications that just feels really inappropriate for most audiences. Um, now that’s an extreme example. But the point is to think about who’s on that list and what message is going to resonate for them and reflect where they are right now, not just where your organization is. So in my book brand raising, I use this term audience centric and and talk about how many organizations communicate in ways that our organization centric. We talk about us is an organization. What we need communicating in an audience centric weighs about speaking to your audience is in this case, your donors, um, in a way that reflects where they are and what you and they connect about. Not not just what you need is an organization.

[00:12:08.57] spk_1:
Um, Now, you said there are five principles.

[00:12:10.94] spk_4:
Um, you, uh, you find you’re getting Let’s see. Okay. Authentic. Adapt your audience, be human. Use your values. Your ate it. Reiterate.

[00:12:24.74] spk_1:
Okay. Thank you. Don’t shortchange us now. Come on. Sorry. We’re okay. What’s your advice around? Adoration.

[00:12:27.99] spk_4:
Well, so you know, there are a number of places where organizations plan, um, strategic planning. It is first and foremost, communications, planning, fundraising, planning. Maybe even how you plan out your website and what you’re gonna, you know, build or change your overhaul on your website. I would say all of those things right now

[00:12:47.74] spk_5:
are a little bit up

[00:14:27.20] spk_4:
in the air. Probably your strategic plan, conceptually is right. But some of the plans you put into place for things you might do this year are no longer gonna work. So it reiterating as a principle that comes from the world of agile and It’s not something that nonprofits air super familiar with, but basically the idea is that oftentimes when we plan, we plan in ways that are kind of fixed, where we assume that there is an outcome or a destination we’re trying to reach, and then we kind of worked backwards off of it and we set a plan. We say, Okay, if I want to achieve X by December, Here’s what I need to do in November, in October, in September and so on and so forth. Illiterate Ivo basically means seeing your planning work and seeing the work that you’re doing is happening in discrete chunks of time or cycles. So maybe your cycle is weekly right now. I would recommend it should be at this time. And that means that every week you should meet with the core team who are the decision making team around. Let’s say fundraising or communications or your organizational work, and every week you talk about what? What are this week’s priorities? How are you going to stay on track with those bigger goals? But what needs to adapt or change? Given what’s actually happening right now, I think we’re all at risk of, um, throwing the baby out with the bath water right now, we’re either so working so hard to adapt to this current environment that we’re losing sight of the bigger picture of what we’re building towards or we’re so focused on the bigger picture. We’re not necessarily communicating in ways that feel appropriate for what’s happening this week. So you have to strike a balance between those two things and and thinking of it is an illiterate Ivo exercises is I think, the

[00:14:37.55] spk_5:
practice that helps us get there.

[00:14:51.74] spk_1:
You mentioned, you know, phase one, phase two. Um, what what’s phase three is? Phase three. Can we start talking about some of our need on dhe? How you might be able you again talking the same audience, you know, committed loyal donors? Um, how you might be ableto help us if if you’re able. Is that is that then?

[00:15:01.37] spk_4:
Absolutely, absolutely. I think it’s very appropriate to start talking about the need. Um, if you could do so authentically. There are many organizations that, you know, I spoke to an executive director on Monday who told me that they anticipate there appeared appear fundraising season is gonna drop significantly and they’re already seeing a 30% decline in in in other donations. I think it’s perfectly appropriate if you’re seeing the writing on the wall and things are already happening. Or, for instance, you’re in arts and culture organization and your theater has gone dark or your museum is closed. Absolutely. It’s appropriate to start talking about that.

[00:15:39.24] spk_1:
It’s home to know when that starts, though. When? When? That When? When it feels OK to do that.

[00:16:14.64] spk_4:
Yeah, well, that’s where I think Iterating becomes important to. I mean, if you if you read The New York Times, you might recall, about a week ago there was an article about the Metropolitan Museum of Art closing until July and the expected, um, financial impact of that. I believe it was something like $100 million they anticipate as the financial impact of closing their doors for this period of time. So, you know, if you’re an organization that’s taking steps like that, I think you can really you know what the numbers are Or Amy. Simple words. She knows what the numbers are, you know, from canceling the NTC. Not every organization knows yet, but I do think a lot of organizations know the impact of their community when you know they’re soup. Kitchen is closed, you know, or people are not able to come in for vital service is so, um, yeah, I think you need to be out there talking about it, but it don’t think you can talk about it in a conclusive way yet because it’s still ongoing.

[00:16:43.95] spk_1:
When you do get to that stage and how do you balance the messaging between your need and compassion for what your donors air feeling

[00:16:52.72] spk_2:
on Aah! Financial financial footing. I

[00:18:03.91] spk_4:
think it’s definitely an art, not a science. And, um and actually, the session I was gonna lead at the NTC about creating kick ass major donor communications had a whole segment about writing. I think you know, this really comes down to how you how you write, what kind of tone and style you strike and how you balance helping your donors envision a brighter tomorrow with the reality of today, you know, there there is a sort of a narrative arc that sometimes great speeches have sometimes great fundraising communications have where you you have to kind of vassal eight between envisioning a stronger, brighter tomorrow and contrast ing that with the reality of today because we don’t want to lose our hope. And and that’s actually one of the pieces of advice that I’ve been giving people is that, you know, there is actually an opportunity right now, especially if you have staff people who are stuck at home not doing what they normally d’oh. And the opportunities to plant the seed for a stronger tomorrow, You know? So so as you it raid. What is that? What is that stronger tomorrow? Look like what? How does your organization want to emerge from this crisis? And, you know, how can you help bring your donors on that journey to?

[00:18:21.94] spk_1:
Yeah, an art, not a science. Um, and you don’t want a misstep, you know, and appear tone deaf or insensitive.

[00:18:25.51] spk_2:
Uh, you know, on

[00:18:56.94] spk_1:
the same by the same took. And you have your needs that you’re trying to convey its, um you know, if I think, you know, if you keep your humanity, that’s a ground. Glad it’s one of your principles. No, um, you know, uh, right from the heart, um, Maybe share, share your message with maybe a board member may be tested with board members, maybe even close major donors. Who’s gonna be the audience? Um, you know not. You know, this is a time where I think it’s especially valuable to get outside opinion

[00:19:02.96] spk_2:
on Ah, some

[00:19:04.38] spk_1:
of these key key key communications.

[00:19:19.93] spk_4:
I think it can be 11 of the other questions we’ve been getting a lot that I think is useful to share to under the under the topic of being human is where and when and how to use humor. Because we’ve seen some examples where humor right now has been really welcome or really, really inappropriate. Eso a place where it’s welcome, for instance, and maybe this isn’t humor, but it’s definitely charming. Is, um, there’s a zoo in Chicago that had that video that is on YouTube, where they let the Penguins out of their exhibit of Under the Aquarium, right? So that’s not outright funny. But it’s very charming, and it makes you laugh. And that kind of humor is very, very welcome right now. And I think that’s one of the reasons we saw that video spread the way it did. Um, where humor I think it’s inappropriate is when it has anything to do with the virus or what people are experiencing right now. I think people are experiencing enormous hardship and challenge, and there’s nothing funny about that. So I think you have to be very strategic, how you use humor if you’re going to do it. And again that often comes down to great great writing and being being creative. You know that that example of the Penguins is one of many of of a team, really, you know, thinking about what? This what this moment presents as an opportunity, as opposed to just as a challenge. And that’s hard to do. But when you get it right, it’s really powerful.

[00:20:54.26] spk_1:
Um, we still have some time left. What? What? What else do you want to share with our listeners and maybe your listeners? Oh, I want to shout out your podcast. Smart, smart communications podcast, non profit radio listeners. You’re you’re already podcast listeners. Sarah is the host of ah smart communications podcast.

[00:22:41.14] spk_4:
Thanks, tony. Yeah, that podcast is mostly interviews with people very short, all designed to help nonprofits get better and smarter at their communications. There’s a really topics there, you know. There I think this is from a communications point of view. This is a really good time to take stock. And, um, and one of the one of the questions that I think is coming up increasingly is Should I be cutting communications? Should I be cutting marketing? Um, we’re how did how to spend with that? And it’s been interesting. I started Big Duck 25 or six years ago, and there have been periods of time recessions or 9 11 where people did cut communications in more recent years. People actually are leaning in to communications. In my experience, we have found we found in 2008 and 2009 that we were busier. Then, ah, then we had ever been, um Now, that’s not to say you necessarily have to spend money, more money or different money. But if you have in House communications people, I would encourage you, hang on to them and give them new new roles and new responsibilities right now, don’t cut them because those are the people who do help you with with the writing, with the design, with the things you’re gonna need to weather this storm and when communications gets cut. You really I think short circuit. Your potential to to come out of this better. Um, you know, the other organizations that are leaning into communications, they’re going to capture that mindshare. And that’s gonna That’s not necessarily gonna set you up for a stronger tomorrow in the long run. So it’s tricky time.

[00:24:01.84] spk_1:
Yeah, now, But you want to keep that long term view? Uh, you know, it’s the if you follow my stock advice, you buy high and sell low. But people who are much barter brighter about investing and long term is, you know, hold what? Hold what you’ve got, you know don’t sell. So it’s the same, you know, it’s the same because you’re in for the long term, right? So people like me need advice like that. So you know the analogy to your to your communications staff to your fundraising staff as well. You know, you you have a long term view. You’ve still got a a mission that you’re trying to accomplish goals you want to achieve. You know, this six month or even yearlong. Uh, I don’t think we’re gonna be in our homes for a year, but the lingering effects. It’s hard to know how long that’s gonna be, but even if it’s a year, it’s just a year. You’ve got a much longer term view and you want to emerge as strong or stronger. And you know you’re absolutely right. The you know, others they’re gonna fill that space around. You’re around your mission if you’re If you’re not communicating at at at a time when it’s, you know you can show your relevance, you become irrelevant. If you stopped communicating now, people gonna lose sight of you. And the trust is the trust between you and governor is gonna be lost.

[00:24:06.34] spk_4:
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that’s well said. And you know, I’m hearing about a lot of organizations right now who are putting together a sort of a crisis management team. You

[00:24:16.17] spk_5:
know, they’ll have ah board staff

[00:24:18.66] spk_4:
leadership team who are meeting regularly to make decisions

[00:24:23.54] spk_5:
as as this crisis unfolds.

[00:24:26.34] spk_4:
You know, one thing that I would like to see more of is I’d like to see more organizations putting together the kind of the long term or the seed planting team, too, because if you’ve got certain people on your team who are managing the crisis. There may be other people on your team, particularly if you work in a mid size or larger organization who can actually start to work ahead and to think about where do you want to be in a year when this is over, or six months or whenever it ISS? And what are the seeds you can plant now? What are they? What are the appeals? You can write the case for support. You can write the you know the Web Web site plans you can create whatever it is, whatever the thing is that you wish you had that you normally don’t have time to d’oh in your daily life, put a team together of staff people who are under utilized right now and let them to an assignment and work ahead. Those are the kinds of things that you know might not be appropriate to release now. But when the timing is right, you’ll be so glad that you laid the foundation on. And it’s just gonna help the recovery, you know, come faster for your organization.

[00:25:31.90] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a great place to end, Sarah, and that’s you know what? That’s capitalizing on something you said earlier, which is finding opportunity in ah, in the midst of confusion and crisis

[00:25:43.23] spk_2:
s so I’m not

[00:25:44.30] spk_1:
gonna not gonna deigned to rephrase what you just said. You said it beautifully. Uh, look, you know, you’re north of the city. I’m south of the city. I look forward to getting together in the city for a drink, and hugging you is you’re a gem gem. And thanks for what you’re doing.

[00:25:59.06] spk_4:
I’ll toast to you of your listeners from Massachusetts. I hope you and everybody

[00:26:05.64] spk_5:
else is Well,

[00:26:28.99] spk_1:
thanks, Sarah on Dhe. Same for you. Stay safe up there. And I look forward to seeing you in the city. Close with it with a big hug. Um, Sarah Durum, CEO of Big Duck And add dramatic and thank you for being with us 20 martignetti non profit radio coverage of what was intended to be 20 ntc. But as I said, I’m releasing this. A special episode responsive by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for 3 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us

Nonprofit Radio for March 27, 2020: John Haydon Tribute

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John Haydon & Rachel Muir: John Haydon Tribute
A well respected and widely known digital fundraising expert with a willing smile, John Haydon died at 53 in February, after a 26-month fight against a rare cancer. He was twice a guest on Nonprofit Radio. He shares his spoken wisdom with us one last time.

His final written wisdom is in his posthumously published book, “Donor CARE.”




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[00:01:28.93] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me This week’s show. John Haydon, tribute. Well respected and widely known digital fundraising expert with a willing smile, John Hayden died at 53 in February after two years and two months fight against a rare cancer. He was twice a guest on non profit radio. He shares his spoken wisdom with us one last time. If you want John’s last written wisdom, get his book Donor Care, published posthumously by bold and bright media. I wish he and I had talked about it. I hope to have one of his book collaborators as a guest. There’s no tony take to this week, and our sponsors won’t object to just an end credit for this show without interruption There. This is gonna be hard for May at Ah, Here are John’s two appearances on non profit radio. The first is Facebook Fundamentals from December 16 2011 then boost revenue with donor surveys. Rachel Mirror is with John at the 2016 non profit Technology Conference this aired on September 30th 2016. Here is non profit radios. Tribute to John Haydon.

[00:01:32.29] spk_1:
Joining me now is John Hayden. John. How you doing?

[00:01:35.67] spk_3:
Tony, how are you?

[00:01:37.67] spk_1:
I’m doing great, Thank you. John is calling from Cambridge, Massachusetts. He’s the principal of inbound zombie consultants in online strategy and social strategy for small and midsize nonprofits. That’s the audience here in the U. S. And Canada. He’s also co author of Facebook Marketing for Dummies. And he’s well known for having simple ideas for getting the most from social media. John Hayden Welcome to the show.

[00:02:02.13] spk_3:
Thank you for having me, appreciate.

[00:02:05.04] spk_1:
Oh, it’s a pleasure. Um, Facebook. Why should non profits pay attention to and be on Facebook?

[00:02:12.51] spk_3:
Why Facebook? Well, the simple answer is that everybody’s on Facebook. Okay, Um, and regardless of where, you know, it’s not really about the platform. It’s about where people are. And as you may know, and maybe some of our your listeners may know Facebook has about 800 million active users.

[00:02:33.26] spk_1:

[00:02:42.92] spk_3:
so these are people that actually log into Facebook 30 minutes, three hours a day. They’re checking in on their iPhone or iPad on browsers and support interconnecting with their friends,

[00:02:48.82] spk_1:
John. 30 minutes to three hours. So even at the short end, on average, people are spending a long time on this one place.

[00:03:15.19] spk_3:
Yeah, exactly. You know, I kind of look at it like the morning coffee routine. You know, maybe 30 years ago, people used to open up a newspaper. How people open up Facebook and they see they get their news. What? What, My friend? Sharing what’s new in the world today. What’s you know, whose birthday is it today? You know, things like that. I mean, it’s really a central part of the culture today, and so non profit, just like when the television came out and certain non profit said while we need to start doing something for TV in the same way, they kind of need to look at where people are using social media, which is, you know, really Facebook at this point.

[00:03:33.83] spk_1:
Oh, so you sort of used those anonymously.

[00:04:10.34] spk_3:
Yeah. So not profit. You know, sometimes I get this question. She’s social media. So many platforms. Where should I? What should I do? I said, look, if you’re not doing idiot all first of all, you get your website straight. You know, make sure you get that first. But don’t think about this huge social media thing. Just think about Facebook because that’s really where you should start. That’s where your constituents are gonna be guaranteed. Your volunteers are gonna be Their donors are gonna be there, not all of them granted. But you know the majority of them on, you know, the fact is that 89% non profits are now using Facebook. So if you are non profit thinking about Facebook, you kind of have to look at what your peers are doing. Well,

[00:04:58.87] spk_1:
yeah, OK, um and I pulled listeners before the show and thank you very much for for retweeting the the the short link to the pole many times. I appreciate that, Andi. One of the questions was, Does your non profit have a Facebook page? So our audience is a little behind the national average. About 77% said yes, and the remainder said no. I better listen to the show so that other 23% or so we’re gonna try to convert them. We just have about two minutes before the break. So I want to just tease a little bit. How do we just how do we just get started? Get started getting started, and then we’ll be out. You and I will be able to spend a lot more time on that after the break.

[00:05:18.27] spk_3:
The best place to start is to have a plan. You know, do some research on Facebook. I actually a website called the non profit Facebook guy dot com non profit. A lot of articles on there, but, you know, come up with a plan and really try and develop a strategy as to where Facebook would fit within your overall marketing communications fundraising plan. And then you really want to start with a Facebook page?

[00:05:31.52] spk_1:
Okay. And, um, we’ll get to the different types of pages because I know this could be some confusion around that after the break. Just in a minute or so. What are the pieces of that strategy or planned? What topic areas should be in there.

[00:06:42.34] spk_3:
Okay, so the topic area would be what are your goals? Specific goals. What do you want to be achieving with Facebook? And it again? It does help to understand what Facebook is good at. What Facebook is not good at understanding kind of its role within your overall communication plan. And then the other thing is, you know what’s going to be your content strategy? What is really unique about your organization, what gets people talking? You know, when you meet people, your supporters volunteers when you meet them and an event and you’re in coffee and bagels together, what is it that gets them really excited? And what did they like? What they like to talk about what they like to share with friends. Build a content strategy around that so that you’re pushing out consistent content on Facebook, which is really kind of the central central point of Facebook. It’s not kind of a static Web page. It’s really not bad. It’s more kind of a living, breathing dialogue that you’re having with your constituents is really the best way to be using a page.

[00:07:07.43] spk_1:
John, we’re gonna take a break, and we’ll get into more detail after this break with John Hayden, author, co author of Facebook Marketing for Dummies and I hope you will Stay with Us. Welcome back. We’re talking about Facebook fundamentals with John Hayden and John before we get into more detail about getting started and the different types of Facebook pages. I am dying to know why your company’s called Inbound Zombie. What is that?

[00:07:25.23] spk_3:
Okay, so impound Zombie, quite honestly, I just literally came up with the name. I’ve always been a fan of zombies, just that zombie movies and what not I find it fascinating and read books about that, and I just felt like, you know, zombie culture will probably be around for a long time. So if I come

[00:07:30.42] spk_1:
for the business

[00:07:58.18] spk_3:
name, that is Oh, current, I’ll always be current. Only after then, you know, maybe like a year later it started having meaning to me like mortar zombies. And this idea that you know what I do for non profit It’s kind of create a situation where people come to them like they actually get to a point where they don’t their constituents in their volunteers. Let’s imagine that they’re like positive zombies that are really smart. They can’t help but come towards the organization. They can’t help but be attracted to the organization through using the Internet.

[00:08:28.39] spk_1:
Okay, okay, as long as they’re positive zombies, not the ones that are, you know, that have the wrapping dangling off them and their bloody and their eyes were just sockets. And as long it’s not that kind. That would cool. All right. Positive zombies on Di did see on Twitter that at Wild Woman fund his mastery in trays, who has been a guest on the show. She looks like she spends more like five hours on Facebook. So I hope our clients are not suffering misery. No hope your client work getting done and other important things in your life are being done and maybe just sleeping less than the rest of us. Okay, John,

[00:08:42.12] spk_0:
what are the different types

[00:08:42.99] spk_1:
of pages? That could be some confusion around that the type of page that a charity should set up on Facebook?

[00:10:06.05] spk_3:
Okay, that’s a great question. So, you know, common mistake that I see is that you know, someone will say, Oh, you know, I just started. I started a Facebook page for my non profit and, you know, how do I get more friends? And so what happens is that sometimes an organization will actually create a Facebook profile, which is for the personal use on. They’ll be using that for their organization, which is basically a violation of the Facebook terms and conditions A and B. It’s not the most effective type of tool to be using. So what I just mentioned the Facebook profile is really what those 800 million people 800 million Facebook users. They’re all using a Facebook program. You know, you share photos with your friends. You check in to Facebook places, you make a status update, connect with high school friends, that type of thing. So that’s that’s really meant for a person now a Facebook page or business page, sometimes called a fan page, since some people might know it is a fan page. That’s really where an organization wants to be starting. And the best way to do this is to go to facebook dot com booking dot com forward slash pages forward slash creates that, Not PHP.

[00:10:14.21] spk_1:
Yes, and then

[00:10:39.70] spk_3:
you want to pick either a local business or place or a company organization or institutions are two different types of Facebook pages. There are six types in total, but these two really apply to nonprofits. A local Peyton place of business might be a museum. That’s a that’s a non profit. The company organization institution might be, say, a foundation that is in a corporate park where really nobody visits them. So you wouldn’t want to advertise the address and location of the business that much. But you still want to have a Facebook page. So these are two different types of pages,

[00:10:52.58] spk_1:
Okay? And it sounds like for our audience, probably the first of those two is more appropriate.

[00:11:00.89] spk_3:
Yeah, Local place or business? Yeah, either one.

[00:11:03.51] spk_1:
Okay, So what can they do on this? Well, eh, So how do they create the fan page? What should be included in it?

[00:11:11.14] spk_3:
Okay, so when you create the fan page, I actually have some videos that you go to non profit facebook dot com. I actually have a few video tutorials about that. But what they want to do is they want to upload a mean image.

[00:11:22.25] spk_1:
John, I’m sorry. Say that you are l one more time that people can go to for the video.

[00:11:30.72] spk_3:
Oh, sure, it’s non profit facebook guy dot com. And then they could just kind of search for it like a little search box.

[00:11:33.98] spk_1:
Was that guy, guy or guide?

[00:11:38.38] spk_3:
I like like you. Why

[00:11:39.52] spk_2:

[00:11:39.56] spk_1:
guy like a man. Okay, non profit Facebook guy dot com. Okay, Thank

[00:12:01.64] spk_3:
you. Create the page. You upload a main image. The video kind of walks you through this whole thing, but you want to create the most important thing is probably creating a welcome tab, a custom welcome tap. And the reason why this is important, tony, is because eventually on organization will want to promote the page, you know, through email. Or however they’re gonna have people show up and like the page

[00:12:10.38] spk_1:

[00:12:38.67] spk_3:
do something on the page. They want to be able to convert the fans. Okay, so when someone shows up, they were gonna make a decision in less than two seconds, whether they should like that page or not. And, you know, it’s been a few studies on this, but organizations that have a welcome cab, which is basically like it could be an image, and it’s just kind of a good first impression. Um, the example that I always used his dog Bless you. If you go into Facebook in the search dog, bless you. They have a great example of a welcome tab. It’s just a picture of a dog and it says dog, bless you, and that’s it. And then, you know, the implication is like the page,

[00:12:55.04] spk_1:
and they have, well, over 200,000 likes.

[00:13:19.62] spk_3:
Exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, strategy like this is important. Ah, welcome, tab. Like it’s important because, you know, when you have people come to your page, you want to be able to convert them into a fan once they arrive. And again, you have less than two seconds. So welcome. Tabs will actually convert fans at a 25% higher rate than the wall or the info tap

[00:13:22.16] spk_1:

[00:13:22.34] spk_3:
other two places that you could send new visitors.

[00:13:45.02] spk_1:
Okay. And that example again is dog. Bless you on on Facebook. All right, so the welcome tab is important. You’ll convert more people then rather than them coming to the wall. And you’re seeing a bunch of posts as the first thing they land on. Is that Is that basically it exactly. Okay. Okay. What

[00:13:45.32] spk_0:
else can we do

[00:13:45.90] spk_1:
that, uh, what other features are? The tabs are there on our on our fan page.

[00:14:15.95] spk_3:
Okay, So they have, you know, they have the wall. The wall is really where all the action is going to be, and I’ll get to that a little bit. But you have the wall, the info tab. You should fill out the basic information. Don’t go crazy about about the information tap. You really want to just include, like, a link to your Web site so that people can click on that and read more about your organization, but you don’t want. You don’t need to provide every single piece of information you can you need to about your organization because people simply don’t read an intro cab that much anyhow,

[00:14:20.63] spk_1:
Okay, they’re

[00:14:21.10] spk_3:
really gonna be interested in what’s happening on your wall.

[00:14:24.00] spk_1:
And if they do want more than you’re given the link to the website or the blogged to get that additional stuff?

[00:15:07.89] spk_3:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So now, as I mentioned before, you know, Facebook, Facebook Page isn’t like a static Web page. Okay, what’s what’s really important about a Facebook page is actually the content that you’re that you’re consistently putting on the page. That’s really what the point is. So I often tell people, you know, don’t go crazy with trying to get you page perfect. Just get it out there and start building up a community, start attracting people start having people like the paid and so forth. So when you first create a page, you literally have no one. There’s no plans at all. Okay, in the same way that welcome Tab will convert a fan. Remember I mentioned you know the welcome Tabal Convert fans?

[00:15:13.83] spk_1:

[00:15:22.41] spk_3:
The other thing you need to do is you need to kind of acquire a certain number of fans. Because when you first started paid, you have zero fans, okay? And tony, I know you live in New York City, right?

[00:15:26.05] spk_1:
That’s correct.

[00:15:27.08] spk_3:
OK, so you know, it’s a new restaurant opens up down the street, and you go to that restaurant and nobody’s that air. That tables are empty. You probably gonna be a little hesitant about going into the restaurant. Okay,

[00:15:38.40] spk_1:

[00:15:51.77] spk_3:
So in the same way with a facebook page, you want to, um you know, page admin can actually use a function called invite friends where they can invite their personal Facebook friend the page, and you can have a few different administrators on the page. And you could have, say, five people who might be an admin of the page and Macon.

[00:15:59.36] spk_1:

[00:15:59.69] spk_3:
each ask their own personal friend network first.

[00:16:02.74] spk_1:
And where do you find Where do you find this, John?

[00:16:06.28] spk_3:
It’s actually on the right hand side of a Facebook page once you created.

[00:16:10.35] spk_1:

[00:16:12.11] spk_3:
Once you create linkage is invite friends.

[00:16:39.95] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. By the way, I do have ah restaurant in my neighborhood. It’s a Chinese place. It was empty. I went in and I blew it. The food was awful. It was awful. It was a buffet. I wouldn’t touch 3/4 of what was there. And then the other 25% tasted bad. So Wow, you’re right. See on that that’s happened recently. So your your zombie prognostication powers are are strong today. I’m with John Hayden, and he’s a principal inbound zombie and co author of Facebook Marketing for Dummies. Can we customize tabs, John? Or is it only what Facebook makes available?

[00:17:56.95] spk_3:
Oh, you can definitely, you know, add tabs on to face a Facebook page. You know, the welcome to have I mentioned earlier you can create, you know, like an e mail opt in type of tab. You can create petitions. You can create a lot of different types of functionality and kind of add those on to your to your Facebook page and you can use, you know, if you know HTML and CS at Some listeners are very technical. They’ll know how to do this. They can figure this out. But for those who aren’t really that tech savvy, which is pretty much 99% of the town profit, you know, they might want to investigate some third party applications like there’s a company called Short Stack. And if you just even if you just search for them on Facebook, just search for a short stack. They have a great application to create custom tabs. Another one that I like. His fan page engine, fan page engine. That’s a great one. And then there’s, you know, there’s a bunch of other ones, but those are the ones that I that I consistently use

[00:18:07.04] spk_1:
and recommend. Okay, we’re gonna move Thio using Facebook for fundraising on dhe. There’s an important distinction that you make. Why don’t you explain what that is?

[00:18:13.83] spk_3:
Okay, so, fundraising. There’s a difference between fundraising, the relationship and fundraising, the transaction.

[00:18:22.44] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay, So the transaction is actually collecting money

[00:18:26.27] spk_3:
exactly collecting the money.

[00:18:27.97] spk_1:
And Facebook is not so good at that. Is that is that right?

[00:18:31.68] spk_3:
Facebook is not the best way to collect money, Okay?

[00:18:38.84] spk_1:
But but it’s a great way to build a relationship. Wait. Exactly. Right.

[00:18:59.44] spk_3:
Excellent way to build relationships and nurture those relationships and filed a lot of people after they donate. There was some research done by black body, I think about a month and 1/2 ago that found that 30% of people that donate online they actually donate through email. Okay,

[00:19:00.23] spk_1:

[00:19:19.94] spk_3:
6% is about 6% of Facebook and Twitter. Okay, so if you’re a non profit, you might say cheese. Then I shouldn’t even waste my time with Facebook. But the fact is, is that a lot of people, when they donate, they don’t just hear about a non profit for the 31st time and start donating. They need to kind of get to know the organization that relationship matures. And then eventually they might join an email list on the Facebook page and then through that email relationship, Then they donate.

[00:19:33.41] spk_1:

[00:19:33.77] spk_3:
Facebook is awesome for acquiring and attracting new donors and developing the relationship with those new fans or connections into, ah donor relationship or volunteer or whatever that relationship is going to eventually mature into.

[00:20:08.12] spk_1:
I pulled listeners again before the show, and one of the other questions was, If you have a Facebook page, do you feel it adequately supports your fundraising? And about 62% said no and the other 40 or 38% so said Not sure. And and nobody said yes that they feel it adequately supports their fundraising. But there was a comment that I think is right on point with what you’re saying. And that comment was our page supports community and promoting the cause, but does not bring in dollars. Is that is that appropriate goal? O. R For Facebook?

[00:20:37.15] spk_3:
Yeah. I mean, it really is about the relationship it’s about, I think, um, I think organizations again, I think there’s kind of an over focus on, like the money, the money, the money,

[00:20:42.92] spk_1:

[00:20:50.74] spk_3:
know, But you have to think about it for your perspective, tony, when you find out about a really cool Mount profit, you’re not gonna donate right off the bat, you probably gonna join their email list and maybe go to an event and then eventually you’ll donate once. And then maybe you sign on as a lifer. Eventually. No. So Facebook is the best tool for creating an enhancing relationships with constituents online, because what you can do is you can report outcomes on your Facebook page.

[00:21:16.17] spk_1:

[00:21:25.51] spk_3:
just We just opened up a new school in this in Tanzania, and it’s doing really well. Here’s some pictures of our students and here’s here’s what they’re learning. Here’s a picture of the teacher. I mean, you could you know, photos do really well on Facebook. And the more that organization could kind of share photos on the Facebook page about what they’re doing, like literally, what is the impact that they’re having on the world that motivates people to donate?

[00:21:44.04] spk_1:
We have just about a minute and 1/2 left, and we’re sort of getting to this topic, So let’s deal with it directly. How do we attract people to our Facebook page?

[00:22:34.92] spk_3:
Okay, great. That’s an excellent question. So a few different things. I usually encourage organizations to leverage the existing their existing assets so they may have a Facebook page would say, three Facebook fans, but they haven’t email list with 3000 subscribers. They can use that email list to kind of promote their page, um, and then get fans that way. You really have to think about you know, how you’re writing the email and and the reasons why people should actually like the page. You want to create a unique situation on the Facebook page that gives people a reason to actually like it and stay connected. The example that I’ve used before GM might share behind the scenes footage for kind of putting together an exhibit

[00:22:41.54] spk_1:

[00:22:41.89] spk_3:
you really can’t get that anywhere else.

[00:22:43.38] spk_1:
Right? Stuff You can only see if you go to the Facebook page.

[00:23:09.08] spk_3:
Exactly. So people need a reason people are reasonable. Facebook users are people, and most people are reasonable. They want a reason to do something. The other thing that I usually encourage people to do is to try the Facebook sponsored stories, which leverages what I would call friends networks on Facebook. So if you have 500 fans on Facebook page by taking out a Facebook spot story, you could actually promote that page to the friends of those 500 people.

[00:23:17.59] spk_1:
Okay, the

[00:23:18.02] spk_3:
average Facebook user has about 130 friends. So I mean, just do the math. You can really create a lot of exposure for the page and then collect a lot of fans that way.

[00:23:29.00] spk_1:
John, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much for being a guest.

[00:23:31.14] spk_3:
Great. Thank you, tony.

[00:23:32.00] spk_1:
My pleasure. John Haydon. Principle of Inbound Zombie and co author of Facebook Marketing for Dummies, where you’ll obviously find a lot more ideas. We’ve only had 25 minutes or so to explore John. A real pleasure. Thank you again.

[00:23:44.77] spk_3:

[00:25:31.90] spk_4:
Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 16 NTC. That’s the non profit technology conference with the Convention Center in San Jose, California. With me now are John Hayden on Rachel Bure. John Hayden is CEO founder Easy, Everything of inbound zombie. And Rachel Buehler is vice president of Training at pursuant. Before we begin with John and Rachel, you have to do our a swag item of the of the interview, which, you may have noticed is a big, big green glass from wind streams and inside is a charging, charging box so you can charge your charge. Your USB device using and then same time Have your drink from Windstream. Rachel, would you have them swag pile, please take the charger out before you drink it in the foreground. Foreground of our swag pile, if you please. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. All right, Rachel. John, Your topic is how to boost revenue with donor surveys. I don’t think people think of boosting revenue with donor surveys, but let’s dispel that misconception, John. How is it that donor surveys can be used to boost revenue? Well, the idea is that the more you understand your donors, the more they’re going to feel heard, right. And then the more that they’re understood and they feel heard, and they’re connected to the organization, the more they’re gonna support the organization. So don’t donor service air really about understanding people that support your organization? So it’s, uh, part of, ah, multi channel engagement strategy. Yes. Say that Rachel is one of our channels in our multi channel.

[00:25:35.10] spk_5:
Absolutely. And it’s a really great tool for understanding what your donors interest are. So then you could target your appeals based on those interest, and you can talk to your donors about the one program that they care about and not the nine programs they don’t care about.

[00:26:33.04] spk_4:
Okay, I don’t think I don’t think many people are thinking about surveys as a channel. I think they’re thinking about Twitter and Facebook and Instagram as their channels. Not a survey. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t say the survey, Zahra Channel. I would say that surveys are almost like an approach, you know, to serve because you could survey people on Twitter. You could survey people on Facebook. You could survey people with a surveymonkey app. You conserve a people in a number of ways, so it’s more like get feedback from donors, you know, approach to a channel. Yeah, exactly. Approach to a channel to a strategy for an engagement purpose? Exactly. Yes. I couldn’t have said it better. I couldn’t have said it worse. Uh, okay. All right. So let’s dive into this. You have some, uh, I can be examples. I don’t feel like starting with the examples, because then you have two DUIs and don’ts, which we’ll get to, but you have some examples to share of good donor survey practices. Rachel.

[00:27:18.36] spk_5:
Sure. Yeah. We shared a example in oven online donor survey in our session. And it was a short six questions survey that really focused on identifying number one. What a donor’s communication preferences are. How are we doing on communicating with your communicating to little just right too much? What what air? The beneficiary preferences the donor has. Who does it don’t care about? Of all the target populations that the non profit serves, which one interest the donor the most? Some questions about you know what, What programs do they care about the most? Is that just some great basic questions that you can use to ask your donors? And these were important because

[00:27:31.64] spk_4:
I was told that it’s six questions. Yeah, Six West. Okay, because

[00:27:33.21] spk_5:
these are all really important questions because donors give for their reasons, not ours. And the more and one of the points that John and I made in our session is, the more you find out you’re gonna ask when you ask these questions, you’ve got to be prepared to use them to use what you learn and honor your donors preferences that they tell you I wanna hear from you more or I want to hear from you less or I want hear about this book. I’ve got to be prepared to be able to deliver on that so that you’re honoring their preferences. You’ve taken the time to find out, and you’re gonna hear next up, it’s gonna deliver on it.

[00:28:10.80] spk_4:
Okay, so we’ve gotta preserve these responses, not just use the to analyze the survey, and then way

[00:28:13.15] spk_5:
we got to make good on it. And that’s what we want to, Because we want to be talking about what they care about, The more we talk to them about what? Care about where they’re gonna give, the longer they’re going to stay with us,

[00:28:56.34] spk_4:
John. Otherwise, people are gonna feel unheard, tony rooms of serving me. If you’re not gonna honor what I asked you to do exactly. You got another? I can’t example for us, John. I can’t example. I’m only quoting from your text here. So is this text fortified? I persisted. It’s somebody else wrote it, and I doubt that you have No, it turns to blame. Too exuberant. Okay, You got some other examples I can’t hear otherwise. Good, sir. Good survey examples. No,

[00:28:57.59] spk_5:
you know, we should see we shared another video example of using video

[00:29:07.89] spk_4:
radio. Sorry, I was definitely the Sessions I did.

[00:29:41.84] spk_5:
So we shared a great example of using video using video to really take the donor right into the action. Take them right there in the field, allow them to really give them an immersive experience where they can experience the donor’s work and then use that to open up a conversation with them. We we’d love to talk to you. We want to learn more about what inspired you to give. We’d love to talk about doing. We want to do so respectfully. If you’d like to hear from us, just click this button and we’ll set up a visit. So it’s a great way to have your donor raise their hand on their own and find out who wants to have a deeper relationship with you.

[00:29:46.66] spk_4:
Yes, okay. I say a little more about what was with the content of that video.

[00:30:41.54] spk_5:
The video simple that we shared was a great video for Operation Smile. It really took the viewer first hand into the operating room, seeing these surgeries in seeing how correcting his cleft palates surgeries, how how they impact of these families and these communities, and they heard stories from the program officers. They heard stories from donors, doctors from doctors from the founder of the organization. And the founder of the organization has a very respectful called the action at the end where he says, we’d love to hear from you. We want to do so respectfully. We’d love to hear your hopes Would love to hear your wishes way If you’d like for us to call you and set up a visit, just click this button. So it’s a really nice way using the e mail since the donor to a landing page with personalized you were all so they could track How the if the donor watches the video, how long they watch it for and then invite the donor to respond and raise their hand if they’d like to have a visit? So it’s another tool to learn more about a donor’s interest and hopefully set up a visit.

[00:32:41.11] spk_4:
Yeah. Okay. Okay. John, I’ll give you a chance to rebuild. I was just there for my looks and that’s it. You could see what? No, no, no. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Rachel. I was gonna get do’s and don’ts Thank you. Rachel. Talking. John. You want to script something? Yeah. There you go. That would help. They want to sign, you know, I don’t know. I Okay, let’s move. Yes, do the notes. Don’t you ask them how much they recently gave? Don’t ask them what they gave. And these air? No, nose, Because you should know this information, right? So if you ask them that right away out of the gate, they say, Wow, but what if it’s an anonymous survey or we’re not? We’re not. We don’t like anonymous service. Oh, no, we can’t because we’re supposed be honoring references. We’re not from the gate we’re not talking about No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Yeah. And so were were, again, the purpose of the surveys to understand the donors. So we’re collecting this information, putting into the donor database so that we can follow up with appropriate communication. So if someone says, Hey, I like cats versus dogs for an animal shelter, they’re gonna get communication. That’s about dogs. Here’s where all the dogs that were saving and here’s what you can do to help change the life in a dog. So that’s really the purpose is to try and Taylor the communication and connect the basically, have the donor have a voice in the in the cause. Okay. Reaches getting the pen out of swag. Out chili. That’s okay. I mean, John is squeezing the year clients. Just ball. I’m a little nervous. CM. That’s okay. Got tomato. But I know you’re nervous because you’re doing so badly. I know I’m doing our angel holding. It’s made of which is not squeezing. Selling.

[00:33:28.74] spk_5:
Yeah, I would say. Okay, here’s some more. Always gonna give you some dues. Don’t Don’t use a complicated PhD level language. Don’t use complicated language. Keep it short. Keep it simple. Sixth grade reading level literally. You want to be don’t use Have it be all text Use highly visualized examples that fit in with the organization’s mission. Think think of a buzz feed stock was that you might take on Facebook. Like what? Eighties band? Um, I Duran Duran, Psychedelic furs, the cures all. You just see the images and you know how you’re going to vote. You barely even have to read the text. You wanna make it as easy for them to read. It is easy for them to do is possible.

[00:33:47.44] spk_4:
Okay, Okay. Really great level. All right. Don’t don’t Don’t use don’t send people to a website that looks horrible on a mobile device where they have to zoom in and look at the survey in order to fill it out. Don’t ask people 20 questions. Be very careful what you’re asking. And the number of questions. We know 20 years too long. Twenties way too long. Is there a range

[00:34:04.96] spk_5:
of five or six? If you’re doing a survey to your whole group, just keep it short and simple. Five or six? Yeah, And I would say don’t skimp on this subject line. Put his much thought into this subject line as you do your survey questions so that you get people to open it. We’ll

[00:35:46.34] spk_4:
talk about the subject line of the invitation email. Exactly a lot of thought, and maybe a B tests your subject line. Okay. So easy to do now. We all should be tested. That’s true. Yeah, I say be testing is like it’s like letting your donors vote on subject line that they like the best and then using that to send out to all the other people. It’s basically, you know, having them help you write the email. Yes. Okay. Okay. That was a good one. Good response. Don’t have been the beginning of catching up. Like getting out of prison. You seriously? Seriously, like a parole officer. You’re like the worst parole officer. You’re much better. Much better on Twitter. Facebook. We’ve never met. I know you all this time I’ve been holding you back. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Um horse. That’s great, man. Yeah, I’m a good sport. Absolutely. Beat the crap out of you later on. Before you go. I am enough police. Okay? Trouble with affiliate. I will not. Okay. All right, all right. We’ve exhausted. Don’t. Let’s look, Let’s focus on the positive. Yes, Do. All right. Well, Rachel, you hit some of that. You make it simple. Visual night visual. Um, other dues. Other good practices,

[00:36:03.29] spk_5:
I would say. Try to integrate serving your donors in multiple avenues. You know, you can send them a donor survey. You can ask them questions after they. You know, we talked about having just a comment box. What inspired you to make this gift on your donation form after they get your newsletter after an event after a gala. You know, there there are multiple touch points where you can solicit feedback from your donors. There’s a reason why you I can’t go to old navy that buy something for my twins without me getting a survey about the experience and satisfactions and number one driver of donor loyalty. So think of other ways that you can solicit your Dona Speed back.

[00:37:57.63] spk_4:
Okay? We also talked about donor circles, which is kind of interesting. So when you think surveys, right, you think, Oh, the internet. We gotta use a website and all that stuff. But donor circles kind of old school. You get five or six donors in a room? Very kind of, I guess. You know, committed long term donors may be from different. Maybe maybe a volunteer. Maybe a donor could be a virtual room. It could be, you know, a real in person. You meet them in person and you ask them questions. You know what made you decide to initially support the organization? You know what? Um, you know what? What kind of stories really get you amped up? You know why? Why do you continue to support the organization and just have that open dialogue in the small group. And I think often that can be that dialogue can be the kind of source to create the online survey because then we know Well what you know, when you start with an online survey you might be asking. Well, what do we even start with? But maybe the donor circles a good place to start. Find out what are the key kind of issues, or what? The key preferences and then suss that out throughout the throughout the database. Yeah. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Okay. Are there certain groups of donors that air? Uh, better to try to engage in a survey than others? Like sustain er’s versus strictly annual donors or non plant giving donors versus others? Many Any distinctions across types of donors that we’re talking with dealing with. That’s a

[00:38:35.05] spk_5:
great question. I would say Surveys air really great for all your donors, and it’s an opportunity for you to be able to identify who your sustainer prospects are and who playing. Giving prospects are and really move those people from the annual fund up because you cared enough to learn about what they care about and you’re gonna deliver on it. So you’ve got you’ve increased your chances of deepening that relationship and deepening their involvement with the organization by asking them the survey because donors give for their reasons, not ours. And it’s up to us to figure out what they are. I see a lot of fundraisers really trying to read their donors minds and wasting a lot of time. And, you know, I like to say Ask more questions. Read Les Mines. There’s someone It’s totally appropriate to say. How do you like to be invited to make a gift? That’s a very respectful way to find out more about how someone does like to be invited to make a gift, and these are all you don’t have to try to read their minds. You can ask him these questions and learn a lot. You build a relationship in the process

[00:39:11.62] spk_4:
because I could think of to Gary with one music suggested. How do you like to be asked and how often? How often should we be approaching use is two or three times per year appropriate five times one time.

[00:39:23.52] spk_5:
That’s a great example. We actually talked about that, you know, you’re giving donors choice when you do that and that that’s giving them control, and that’s a really big part of them deepening their engagement with you. They won’t have that controlled. We’ve got one study where an organization raised 50% more, 50% more at their year and appeal because they gave those donors. Those choices win. Do you? When do you want to hear from us? Windy? Want us to ask? How often do you want us to ask? They first proved the value of their communications, and that’s something I would caution anyone to first. Do you know if the first time you make a gift, if I ask you how much how often you won’t hear from me? You might say Not very much, because you don’t know me yet, But once I’ve proven the value of the communications and you do know and the donor doesn’t of the organization, it’s really great to ask those questions. That’s a really great point.

[00:40:45.94] spk_4:
Thank you. I scored wanting 16 minutes and 40 seconds. All right, John, You want a chance? A chance of what? Score a point. Okay. Ask me a question about good news. Um no eso. So keep the language simple, very simple. And use their words right. Don’t use any jargon that you might throw around in the, you know, internal meetings use their words and focus a lot on visuals. Actually, visuals drop people in the video is a great example. And actually, that video is very powerful because the organization was smile.

[00:40:48.72] spk_5:
Training was operation Smile.

[00:41:47.77] spk_4:
Operation smile. Yeah, it was great. I mean, when the video is playing during our session, I was kind of had tears in my eyes, you know, So that emotion drives the person, take action, right? So at the end, you know, Hey, tell us what we can do or contact us. We want take the next step with you. That person probably more likely to take that action because of that emotion, right? So I think that’s that’s really key is to try to focus on drawing people in emotionally and an appeal to that, because that’s gonna drive the action. And there’s something like logic. Will logic drives a conclusion. So a logical solicitation appeal logical appeal drives a conclusion. An emotional appeal drives a response. Acting exactly exactly. That’s great. You earn 10 points to that. I love it. That was brilliant. Know what gave you the authority to assess points? There’s a host here. You see the signs? Tony-martignetti fitting units. I’m being put in my space sick. I think I’m being hard

[00:41:53.07] spk_5:
on John. He’d

[00:42:28.00] spk_4:
never come back. Although I did it before. Yeah, people will google me, at least. Who is this guy? John Hayden is having a total failure on this video. You don’t even mention it. Credential here that you’re exactly Facebook marketing for dummies. Proof that I am a dummy proof Facebook marketing for demos Take himself too seriously. Not at all. Um, secrets. Your favorite for profit brands use to build loyalty. Let’s start revealing some some of these four profit secrets.

[00:42:57.30] spk_5:
Well, they ask. I mean, you you can’t hardly buy anything or do anything without being asked about your experience. Right? I mentioned like the survey over the dressing rooms. How was the lighting? And and they you know, the best time to build on a great experience or fix a negative one is in the moment that it happened. And that’s why surveys air so great if you ask people honestly, you get a chance to interact in that experience before that donor becomes a lapsed owner. And that’s why it’s great to be soliciting feedback often,

[00:43:43.97] spk_4:
often, often and immediate. Yeah, depending on the engagement, right, depending on what that engagement was. Okay, that’s a good one. Yeah, and actually, someone has a bad experience, you know, they might weigh one question we asked was Have you ever had a bad haircut? You know, so you’re not gonna tell your hair, and I don’t I don’t know if I have been here Cut or not. Probably not right now. But, you know, if you have a bad haircut, Apparently, according to people I know, if you have a bad haircut, you’re gonna tell all your friends. You know, whatever you do, don’t go to the hairdresser. But you’re not gonna tell the hairdresser, right? So it’s important to listen on, follow up. And but just being heard can often turn things around, and I think they would weigh Refer to the recovery paradox.

[00:43:47.63] spk_5:
Yeah, this is known in the for profit sector. Is the service recovery paradox?

[00:44:07.34] spk_4:
Yep. Service recovery. So it says it says that if you do something really awful, and it’s someone has an awful customer experience. If they feel heard, they are more likely. Thio, you know, support you or they’re gonna be more loyal

[00:44:09.15] spk_5:
then if they never had a complaint in the first place

[00:44:11.39] spk_4:
and you don’t even have to fix the problem, that’s the good thing.

[00:44:13.66] spk_5:
You don’t have to listen to it.

[00:49:30.99] spk_4:
Yeah, really, that’s the That’s why it’s a paradox. Like you would think if someone has negative something negative to say about your organization or your business, you know you have to fix it. We gotta change this. But not necessarily. You have to listen something’s You obviously can’t change, right? But just giving that person the opportunity to say how they feel and be heard. Then they say, Wow! Of all the brands of all the retailers of all the non profit I sport, I feel hurt by these guys now. They’re not doing everything I like, but I really like them so that loyalty increases universes defensive, you know, blaming the victim response. Yeah, service. Yeah, exactly. And again, the bad haircut, right? So if you don’t listen to them, that person’s out there on the street telling their friends. Hey, you know, whatever you do don’t support these guys because they’re kind of, you know, Not only did they do it wrong, but they don’t even want to hear what I have to say. Also, you don’t want that on the street. Your customer donor is taking the time to share their opening up to you. If they didn’t care about you, they wouldn’t. They wouldn’t bother waste in their mind. They waste of time sharing this bad. You off? Yeah. This person cares enough to tell you you’re really hurt. That that will increases their loyalty. That’s okay. Yeah. Yeah, way. Got a couple more minutes together. What else? What else can we do? Have to depart. Rachel. It’s okay. Just you don’t have to do it silently. I’m gonna turn off your mike so you don’t make a lot of you are way too big a lot by Rachel. You’re gonna leave me with lackluster way. All right, let’s finish this up, tony. That’s That’s Rachel Buehler, Vice president of training at pursuant. Thank you, Rachel. Thanks, Rachel. Okay, John. All right. Great. I just said we have a couple of minutes left, so don’t disappoint. me. Good. Okay. What What else? What else is gonna be covered in this topic or or what else was covered? Well, I think, you know, I think talked about the thing that we tried to impress people with a donor survey is not just a survey that you do once a year, once 1/4 but it’s almost like a mindset of creating. Offered every opportunity to follow up with the donor and listen to them. So, for example, we talked about when someone makes a first time donation, right? That’s a big deal. That’s a pretty big deal. Hey. Wow. You You gave us money. Don’t. Why? Did you know what was what made you decide to do that? Someone gives a second time, right? If they give one steps, that’s great. But if they give a second time, it’s almost a miracle. So, Wow, where did we? What are we doing that drove you back to us twice? Reinforce the catch of a miracle? That is because we have a 70% donor attrition problem across non profits in the U. S. Absolutely. We’re losing 70% of our donors each year. Yep. So it’s quite a big deal when somebody gives you that second gift? Yeah, absolutely. And then And then, of course, monthly, right. If someone says, Hey, I gave once or twice here and there. But now I want to commit to a monthly program, right? I want to commit to that. Wow. You did that. Yeah. So obviously these follow these donor. These survey questions are gonna be different for each of those situations. Right on, then. Also, you know, even on a donation form, having like Rachel said, an open box That said, if you want, you know, if you have anything to tell us anything you want to share with us about why you’re supporting us, just type it in right here. Just having this attitude of, um, kind of be, you know, having an ear and being open to listening to people and giving people opportunities to share how they feel, you know, even on, You know, I wrote Facebook marketing for dummies, and I’m always telling people. Yes, there’s Facebook insights. You can look at all the data, but read the comments on the posts. Right. That’s where you get all this really incredible personal stories. People sharing personal stories. What they think about certain issues, how they you and also you learn their language, right? How are they talking about the cause We think we talked about as a communications person at a non profit. You know, sometimes they get caught into jargon or talking about a cause in a certain way of thinking they have to educate donors, but, you know, by reading comments, really listen to donors should kind of understand their language how they’re talking about it, using their words, you know? Okay. Yeah. Cool, John. All right. Was that I think that’s a great rap, All right, Because I was so harsh to you. Yeah. I’ll give you a shout out. You should be following John Hayden on Twitter. He’s at John Hayden because he is very good. Does have a lot of good content. And it’s not only about Facebook E mail, anything. Candy, Five tips. Five. Think you sort of known for five of these seven of these quick tips. Very tactical. There’s that value. But you also go deeper too. Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I’ve weekly webinars. I do free webinars. I call it the Humped. A coffee break and it’s just, you know, people show up. Look at Wednesday’s 11 and, you know, have a cup coffee. Learned something and leave. That’s it. So, yeah, it’s all right. I feel like I owed you that. Great. Thank you. Well, thank you for the opportunity. Really Do appreciate it. And it was fun. I have very thick skin, So I had a great time. Honestly. Tell your friends about not probably I do. Do I tweet about it? I tweet about it. Yeah, Yeah. John Hayden. He’s He’s everything around Inbound Zombie. They do. Marketing Consulting. Exactly. Thank you. Okay. And you are listening and viewing. Tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 16 NTC the non profit Technology conference

[00:50:50.04] spk_0:
next week. Build your grantmakers relationships. The foundation center panel I hosted back when there was a the foundation center. They merged with guidestar last year to create candid If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com Bye, Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Our creative producers Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and the music you would ordinarily here right now is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out like John Hayden and be great

Nonprofit Radio for March 20, 2020: Your Organization’s Health

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My Guest:

Jamie Bearse: Your Organization’s Health
At ZERO, The End of Prostate Cancer, they have a culture grounded in high responsibility, high freedom, transparency, accountability, curiosity and adaptability. They’re a Nonprofit Times 50 Best Places To Work. Jamie Bearse is ZERO’s CEO.




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[00:00:27.68] spk_0:
This is Sam Liebowitz, the line producer for tony-martignetti non profit radio, and I have a message for you from tony this show to its pre recorded today. When I recorded it, the 2020 non profit technology conference was going ahead. Not surprisingly, it’s been cancelled, no less grateful to Cougar Mountain software for sponsoring non profit radio at the conference. So I’m going ahead with Tony’s Take two. I thank you for your understanding. I hope you’re well and safe and taking care of those close to

[00:00:49.14] spk_2:
you. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:01:26.61] spk_1:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our seventh show in the Innovators. Siri’s your organization’s health At zero the end of prostate cancer, they have a culture grounded in high responsibility. Hi freedom, transparency, accountability, curiosity and adaptability and Maur. There are non profit times, 50 based best places to work. Jamie Burst is zeros CEO

[00:01:33.34] spk_2:
on tony Stick to 20 and T. C were sponsored by

[00:01:34.00] spk_1:
wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com.

[00:01:39.02] spk_2:
But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund

[00:01:41.34] spk_1:
is there. Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day

[00:01:48.12] spk_2:
trial and by turned to communications,

[00:01:50.95] spk_1:
PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:01:58.94] spk_2:
It’s a real pleasure

[00:02:29.30] spk_1:
to welcome Jamie Burst to the show. He is CEO of Zero the End of Prostate Cancer. Over 15 years, he’s held nearly every job there, and they’ve raised about $100 million for the cause. Zero has six consecutive years as a non profit times. 50 Best places to work. Jamie has been a congressman’s press secretary, a reporter and editor, a radio deejay and a movie theatre projectionist. He writes comedy as a hobby. Zero is at zero. Cancer dot or GE, and he is at Jamie Bearse Bursts. Welcome. Welcome

[00:02:36.66] spk_2:
to the show, Jamie Bars

[00:02:38.74] spk_5:
I tony thing for having

[00:02:39.70] spk_2:
me on. It’s my pleasure.

[00:02:43.72] spk_5:
Quite a bit of research that many years back before you uh uh, get being a projectionist.

[00:02:52.31] spk_2:
Uh, yeah, way Have always saying on

[00:02:52.93] spk_1:
this show that I need an intern. Whenever I make a mistake, I say I need an intern to blame to blame for that mistake. But

[00:02:59.36] spk_2:
yeah, we don’t We don’t actually have

[00:03:03.77] spk_1:
interns. This is All of this is all either uncovered or, uh, somebody at zero. Give it to us.

[00:03:08.04] spk_6:

[00:03:08.10] spk_2:
mean, I don’t know who’s the US. We might talk about us. Me? Um, so So you’re doing some innovative things at

[00:03:16.23] spk_1:
zero. The way you define the culture with the culture of there is based on and the way it’s it’s service oriented. Um, we’re gonna get into all that. We get the full hour together. Obviously. The place to start, though, is acquaint us with. We’re gonna be talking a lot about what goes on at zero of as employees. What is zeros work?

[00:04:57.51] spk_5:
Sure. Our mission is right there in our name. Um, hear the end of prostate cancer. We’re being too and prostitutes or by advancing research, improving the lives of men and families and inspiring action And how that breaks down that we fight to increase prostate cancer research funding. Uh, we inspire action among men and families through a run walk series that we have that 47 cities across the country from L. A to New York to Minneapolis, to Miami and all points in between. And we have ah ah, quite a Amiri out of programs in order to be able to help like Krusty Cancer. And uh, at the top of that list that I’m most proud of is this program called 0 360 that we step in to have a patient navigator palpitation for free, doing comprehensive work on their behalf to being able to reduce financial distress. But a patient goes through while battling cancer research shows that nearly half its about 40% actually of cancer patients and quitting their treatment altogether because of financial issues. So we step in and help pave the way so they can get better and have a happy, healthy life with that, with their family going forward.

[00:05:01.95] spk_1:
And I presume there’s some kind of lobbying that you’re doing is well, for, ah, awareness among our our leaders.

[00:05:48.14] spk_5:
That’s right. We do advocacy work. I just just concluded our annual zero prosecutes or summit down in Washington, D. C. Where we had advocates from all of the country actually coming in from 40 states, and, uh, we send them to Capitol Hill to fight for, to protect an increase prostate cancer research funding. Onda, um, interesting side Good here is that not a lot of people know this, but the Department of Defense, please, is a significant role in the war on cancer. Um, like I said not. Not many people know that, but what they do. And there’s a program called the Prostate Cancer Research Program within the Department of Defense that has done some pretty significant breakthroughs and prostate cancer treatment screening,

[00:05:54.68] spk_2:

[00:06:18.15] spk_5:
for new treatments for prostate cancer in the last eight and 1/2 years. And, uh, you, uh, screening tool that is able to identify if you have an indolent to mark or an aggressive one. That’s really our, um, our advocates work over the years, and coming out to this summit has really paid off in a big way to be able to helped three million American

[00:06:22.71] spk_1:
those recent breakthroughs that you just described. They came from the department defense.

[00:06:49.45] spk_5:
It was funded by the Department of Defense. They go out to institutions around the country from places like Johns Hopkins, MD. Anderson Um, University of California, San Francisco. Institutions like that do you do the work, but the funding is geared toward being able to rush brilliant ideas from the science bench to the patient’s bedside is rapidly and constantly as possible.

[00:07:11.74] spk_1:
Okay, um, and you’re right. That 40% figure is startling that 40% of men end their treatments for prostate cancer for financial reasons that that’s that’s I don’t know, it’s upsetting. It’s annoying. It’s frustrating on its Shouldn’t be, uh, she’s

[00:07:15.73] spk_2:
okay. Um, how many employees

[00:07:18.30] spk_1:
at AA zero?

[00:07:21.35] spk_5:
Right now we have 32

[00:07:23.64] spk_2:
including victory

[00:07:24.60] spk_5:
and the year somewhere closer to 40. 39. 30 38 39 please.

[00:07:38.64] spk_1:
Oh, are you You’re gonna be close to 40 body into this year. Okay, that’s that’s pretty substantial growth for a 32 person organization. And, uh, on that includes virtual employees, right?

[00:08:11.50] spk_5:
That’s right. Yeah. We have employees all around the country. I would say about half of half an employee there in the Washington D C area. Uh, and then we have chapter directors that are scattered around the country. Several in California. I’m outside of Boston. Uh, yes, Chapter director and Texas in Minneapolis. And another one in New Jersey. And, um, another one in l. A.

[00:08:15.27] spk_2:
Okay, so you you have virtual over. Well, is on site. Okay, well, I bring that out

[00:08:38.03] spk_1:
because I think that has implications for a lot of what we’re gonna be talking about. The core values. I mean, how do you have you instill those in virtual employees who don’t have whoever who don’t have the benefit of on site on dure high touch? And that’s, you know, that can be isolating. So hopefully we’ll get a little into what? What your work is to make sure that that doesn’t become the case. The reality for the for the folks who are virtual

[00:08:51.04] spk_2:
yes. So, you know, we want to get into some of

[00:08:53.91] spk_1:
the details of the culture. We just have Jamie. We have about a minute or so before our first break. Okay, I’ll let you know when they’re coming up. So, um, you want to just talk a little about just briefly and just sort of tease it and we’ll get into Maura lot a lot more about being like, um hi. Responsibility and high freedom,

[00:10:14.88] spk_5:
I’m sure. Absolutely. Um are our culture is what sets us apart in order to be able thio make ending prosecutor a culture driven passion. If you Will and, um, in Global will break that down. Um, as we talked throughout the hour. But what it comes down to having the right values that everybody shares across the organization. It’s, um, committing thio, um, five aspects on how we over communicate with each other in order to be able to drive clarity. Um, and it comes down Thio, as you just said, Hi. Hi. Responsibility and high for Gemma’s bringing people into the organization that have a high level of, ah, off, uh, self regulated self management, um, that have high responsibility. And when individuals with the high level of responsibility. Um, I’m sorry. Individuals with a high level of responsibility are entitled Thio High level of freedom. And we’ll we’ll dive into that too.

[00:11:22.58] spk_1:
Yeah, we absolutely Well, all right. We got to take this break about 30 seconds wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time wegner-C.P.As so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner who you know, just on the show. But last week, you two and ah, and the firm experience as well, with a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under their belt so that your financial needs are not only covered but well covered, and you get the benefit of lots of their vast experience around nonprofits. Wegner-C.P.As dot com The place to start your due diligence as you’re exploring the possibility of new work for help with the 90 or audit. Okay, um, now let’s go back to your organization’s health. Jamie burst CEO at

[00:11:24.40] spk_2:
zero. Um what? What does this mean,

[00:11:28.83] spk_1:
20 to be high responsibility,

[00:11:54.01] spk_5:
I’m sure I actually have my gift. Thio steer back to, um make him actually make the case for organizational health there. There’s a lot of, uh, organizations out there that believe if you’re the you’re the smartest organization out there, then you’ll be successful. Um, and I don’t necessarily believe that that is true. I think that

[00:11:54.80] spk_2:
that that

[00:14:59.64] spk_5:
helps. Ah, but it really starts with having a healthy organization, an organization where folks within it are our, um are honest with each other in a way that they embrace vulnerability based on trust, and, uh, we can get into exactly what that means. But what it kind of looks like is that it means that it’s okay to say that I made a mistake, or you’re better at this than I am. Or, um, I messed this up, but, uh, next time I’m gonna do even even better than when you have that vulnerability. Been trust with one another, you’re able to engage in healthy conflict, and conflict happens. Ah, in any relationship, any organization. But I tell you how you handle that conflict in a way that you’re you have confidence of communication, that you get what you want while preserving the relationship that you have in a way that’s acceptable for everyone who’s involved. And, um, that looks like, um, understanding if I think that when it comes to conflict, people are either either one of the other, either people are bulls in China, shops or people are conflict of waiters. Now there’s some people who are also kind of ambidextrous without depending on the situation. Sometimes they’re bulls in China shops, and sometimes they’re just avoid complex altogether. But understanding your colleagues and what their appetite is for conflict and how they handle it and engaging in healthy conflict, where you really hear each other out in a healthy manner allows you to drive to commitment together on DDE. That looks like, um, excuse me, That looks like, um asking clarifying questions of like, Okay, you know what? I’m What I hear you saying is X y Z, and that gives a chance for the other person. Thio change that. Clarify that, or confirm. Confirm that that that’s, um that’s what everybody’s saying. That that way we’d have a good, clear understanding of what decisions are being committed to what goals are being committed to. And when that happens, it sets up an atmosphere for a peer to peer accountability in which, you know, something doesn’t go the way that we’ve committed to doing something. It opens the door to asking questions and getting really curious about like Okay, what I thought we committed to was X y z, But what happened was a b. C. Um, you know what happened or what changed along the way and being able t o get an understanding of how things fell apart. And if, um, if maybe, um that that accountability looks like, um seeing, uh, your kind truth, which is, you know, being able to give somebody feedback in a way where you care personally but challenged them directly

[00:15:05.46] spk_2:

[00:15:11.64] spk_5:
And, um, that that comes down to saying that you acknowledge, um, how much they care about the cause and how much they care about their relationship.

[00:15:17.93] spk_1:

[00:15:38.64] spk_5:
I want to do and I mean job, but also challenges them directly on improving. But when you have all that working together, the trust, uh, healthy conflict, that commitment, the peer to peer accountability that really wipes away a lot of the B s that can happen in organizations, the water cooler talk that goes on. And then you can really just roll up your sleeves and get to work and focus on results.

[00:15:44.52] spk_2:
Yeah. Jamie, where do these

[00:15:45.98] spk_1:
ideas come from? You kind truth and over communicating vulnerability based trust. What’s the genesis of these ideas?

[00:16:11.24] spk_5:
They come from different places, but But I really loved what isn’t Is an author out there, uh, by the name of Patrick Ngoni, who put out a book a few years back called The Advantage by organizational. Health trumps everything else in business, and he talks a lot about vulnerability. Based trust is having healthy conflicts. So some of it comes from there, and then

[00:16:18.18] spk_2:
some of

[00:16:34.64] spk_5:
it, uh, sort of picked up along the way and really puzzled puzzle piece this together. And some of the ideas come from, uh, Silicon Valley and Netflix in the amazing growth that they’ve had through the years. Um, and then from her mother,

[00:16:37.34] spk_2:
Okay. From other

[00:16:38.27] spk_5:
places just picked up along the way.

[00:16:40.24] spk_2:
One of the things I don’t

[00:16:41.08] spk_1:
know about you.

[00:16:41.71] spk_2:
Are you the founder of Zero?

[00:16:59.16] spk_5:
I’m not actually, I The organization started in 1996. I came on in 2002 as, uh uh, doing communications. And, uh, we did really well. And that CEO at the time, And I think a couple of years later came to me and said, Hey, you know, there’s a lot of transferable skills on, um, getting media placement, Thio getting people toe donate to the organization. So,

[00:17:09.53] spk_2:
yeah, come

[00:17:10.74] spk_5:
through and responsibility from there,

[00:17:12.37] spk_1:
right? All right. I know. I know. You progress through lots of different responsibilities. Um,

[00:17:17.97] spk_2:
okay. What? What does um, what is high freedom? Translate to

[00:17:23.69] spk_5:
Hi, freedom. High responsibility have freedom. Uh,

[00:17:26.55] spk_2:
you know

[00:18:21.44] spk_5:
that if you’re, um if you’re getting your job done, if you’re hitting all of your goals and you’re behaving with three values that we sent off across the organization and ex selling on all of it. Then year entitled to having high freedom. Which means, um, we don’t track personal time off. Believe in, uh, have being able to establish work life balance by taking the time that you need Thio? Uh, yes, Teoh, go to the doctor’s office, take a vacation. Um, you get your car fixed. Whatever it takes in orderto have that work life balance because if you again going back to the high responsibility part, those who are highly responsible are not going to abuse the system because they constantly want to stay on top of They’re they’re game stand off of their job and the tasks that they have to do and really excel it.

[00:18:26.18] spk_1:
Yeah, yes,

[00:19:06.24] spk_5:
when that happens and we don’t need to micromanage And, um, it also but also ties into, um, being able to give, um direct in the moment can to feed back another way that were much different from other organizations. But do you like end of the year reviews? Instead, we thought with with giving feedback in the moment, Why wait? It’s almost, you know, Why? Why wait, uh, nine or 10 months to the end of the year just to talk about some of the things that you could have corrected. And in the winter of spring, you hear the feedback now and corrected.

[00:19:07.11] spk_2:
So that means, like, as

[00:19:08.09] spk_1:
a project is ongoing, you know, there’s a justice is constant of feedback loop, as as something goes well or goes badly.

[00:19:17.32] spk_5:
Yeah, way.

[00:19:24.84] spk_2:
Just look down. Just I’m What does this look

[00:19:25.48] spk_1:
like? I’m trying to drill down. So people get a sense of what the what the work patterns are and communications patterns?

[00:19:33.04] spk_5:
Uh, yeah. The constant feedback loop is, uh, mostly around or three values that we have and that’s being humble, hungry and smart.

[00:19:40.84] spk_1:
Yes, you’re a J HHS.

[00:21:02.94] spk_5:
That’s right. Right? You got it. Humble breaks down into, um, it’s very it’s very straightforward. It’s putting team accomplishments in front of your own. You go hungry means that you’re driving for success. You’re looking for that? I’m next opportunity. Um, you’re good with stepping in outside of your, um your job description or your area of expertise to be able to help others across the organization and smart as a little nuanced. It’s It has a lot to do with, um, emotional intelligence rather than book smarts. And that comes down Thio being being attentive listener and understanding how you’re behavior in your actions affect others across the organization. So ah, lot of the feedback happens around those values. They believe that everybody’s gonna make this cake, but, um, everybody’s gonna fail and hopefully we fail fast. We learn from those mistakes and, uh, way we strive for for success. But it really starts with having those three values lived by all the time and being able to get feedback on how you’re impacting others through two or three values. Um, is what set this up for? For that success?

[00:21:32.11] spk_1:
Yeah, HHS humble, hungry and smart, I thought of health and Human Service is, but I know it’s not that on Dino. It’s not humanities and Health Service’s either. That was something that I think of the Carnegie Mellon University, but I was flashing back. But so So there’s a lot of communication around these three. Like, this is the Those are the three, um, sort of bedrocks of feedback. Is that right?

[00:22:05.43] spk_5:
Uh, yes, because again, if we were behaving in a way that humble, hungry and smart Everything else falls into place. Uh, after that, it really goes back to you know, if you’ve made a mistake or you’re not, um, you don’t, don’t you? Ah, you know, cast the right way. Um, you know, those things happen. It’s inevitable, human. But But if you’re your behavior is in a way, what say that, um example

[00:22:07.00] spk_1:
stories, air. Good. If you can think of something, that’s

[00:22:56.58] spk_5:
a good one. Um, sure. Um so if if, um if I’m being humble and hungry. But I’m not, um, sort of lack that emotional intelligence in a way that I don’t. But to really understand fully how my actions are, the things I say, uh, fall on other people and how that how it makes them feel or motivates them. Then I sort of turn into an accidental mess maker like I’m driven and want to succeed. You hungry? I’m humble and putting a put the team first. But if I don’t understand how my actions are affecting others and not inspiring them, that I’m going around an organization and making messes all over the place rather than really understanding how You know, my words or actions are falling on others.

[00:23:01.54] spk_1:
I’m getting nervous that I could never survive it. Zero? I

[00:23:05.00] spk_2:
don’t know. I would want to. I certainly would strive

[00:23:06.75] spk_1:
to. I’m not by any means putting down what? Your what? Your Ah, the way you work. I’m just not I don’t

[00:23:13.00] spk_2:
know. I hope I hope I would It would be something like that.

[00:23:15.15] spk_1:
Out of that I inspired too. But I’m not sure that I would

[00:23:18.44] spk_5:
touch people all the time. It’s not. It’s not an issue of Ah, you know, if you if you fall off in one way or you’re not being, you know, if you’re missing one of these, uh, out of HHS, uh, we caught you along,

[00:23:33.09] spk_2:

[00:23:41.04] spk_5:
And help you help you get there and being well rounded. Tell me when. Yeah, if you refused to be, embrace the values of our culture.

[00:23:43.53] spk_2:
Yeah, Dad. And

[00:23:44.62] spk_5:
then it’s done. That’s when it’s time. Just part ways.

[00:23:47.34] spk_1:
Somebody says this is gonna

[00:24:29.99] spk_5:
fire anybody or part ways with anybody because of the mystical or hey, we’re all pulling together for certain budget number or a certain number of patients helped, you know, There are outside factors that have have an impact on that. No. Why should anybody get punished? A replica reprimanded for outside forces that impact our ability to drive to a goal. It’s only internally and really self managing yourself around these values. Its what you can control. And if you’re open and willing to be coached, we’ll get you there.

[00:24:30.75] spk_1:
Okay. Maybe I’d have a shot. Uh, keep my

[00:24:33.42] spk_2:
eye before

[00:24:36.61] spk_5:
that. He’s going back. Um hey. Started 18 years ago. I’m not sure the organization were higher. Uh,

[00:24:45.52] spk_1:
that’s true for a lot of us. Uh, I’m not sure I’m qualified for some of the jobs I used to hold, but

[00:24:51.13] spk_2:
I’m not. I’m not sure I’d want

[00:25:15.02] spk_1:
them anymore, either. I think about I think about the dysfunction that I used to survives in some places and, uh, okay. Plus, I was in the Air Force, had five years. Ah, Whiteman Air Force Base in the Air Force. And, um, there’s not a lot of at least then I didn’t see a lot of emotional intelligence. Um, in any case. Okay, well, I’m gratified to know I’d have a shot. I’d have a mentor. I’d have some help

[00:25:20.20] spk_2:
this has I have lots of questions, but this has implications

[00:25:22.98] spk_1:
for obviously, you’re sort of you’re alluding to it

[00:25:28.17] spk_2:
toe higher for hiring. How do you screen

[00:25:29.01] spk_1:
for someone who was gonna embrace HHS?

[00:25:33.04] spk_5:
Yeah, that’s a great question.

[00:25:34.72] spk_2:

[00:25:44.54] spk_5:
funny. Would be, uh stop. Say this in the two parts one is, uh we have, ah, a lengthy interview process where we, uh, make sure that, uh, more quite half the organization, but I would say, get 8 to 10 people across the organization, end up meeting the candidate to get to know them.

[00:25:55.54] spk_2:
I’m not

[00:26:12.51] spk_5:
sure that that somebody, especially the potential direct report of this person, spent some face time outside of the conference room of the the office where we typically would have interviews to just get out and grab a cup of coffee or whatever. Just you see what they’re like outside of the office to really get to get to know them.

[00:26:16.55] spk_2:

[00:26:36.94] spk_5:
And then, uh, we’ll get through the interview process, its funding. It always seems to fall on me when it gets to the later stages of the interview process. Thio, ask all these really quirky questions that I don’t think anybody’s ever done before. And I ask things like, um, tell me. Tell me about, um you know, what would your friends of your colleagues say? It’s most annoying about you.

[00:26:41.45] spk_1:
Oh, jeez. I killed myself. That would be

[00:26:51.64] spk_2:
I don’t mean I killed I killed the interview, and I don’t mean I don’t mean I’d kill it. I mean, I’d kill my chance if I started talking about what my friends think of me. Oh, my God. Yeah. What your friends say, Oh, my God,

[00:26:56.38] spk_5:
About you.

[00:27:05.28] spk_1:
Yeah, well, he he does stand up comedy, you know? But I don’t. He’s berating a little bit. I don’t know. He worries about commas in e mails.

[00:27:09.54] spk_5:
I did that.

[00:27:15.93] spk_1:
Yeah. What would my friend said? What would you have that I’m kind of? I’m just tinkering around the edges.

[00:27:16.84] spk_2:
That’s a great question. What would my I think you know what I think my friend would say. I think he’s a He’s a loyal guy. Like he’s the guy who puts people together all the time. He’s always drawing. It’s a guy who always creates the Air Force for Union and the high school reunion and the the law School reunion. You know, this is the guy. I think he’s always putting us together, even through all the years when we had kids

[00:27:36.04] spk_1:
and because I don’t have kids. So when people have kids and they couldn’t make the reunions, I would still keep in touch, would send pictures to the people who couldn’t

[00:27:43.52] spk_2:
come. I would I would say they probably would say, I’m like the connector. I’m the people The guy who, like brings through the decades

[00:27:50.71] spk_1:
has been bringing people together. I think that’s what they would say.

[00:27:55.63] spk_2:
That is, that is, I know I

[00:27:57.81] spk_1:
was focusing on the comes in the e mails I was being Hearst to myself. I was being humble, was trying to embrace you. Humility.

[00:28:05.19] spk_2:
But that’s cool. I don’t have another turn

[00:28:06.61] spk_5:
it around and say, What kind of people do you find less knowing,

[00:28:11.04] spk_2:
uh, people who don’t

[00:28:28.03] spk_1:
treat people with respect? You know, just that could be ah ah, and in consideration on the subway. Or it could be harsh words, or it could be just I think of unkindness. I mean, it’s unkind to leave food in the office refrigerator for too long. Um,

[00:28:33.08] spk_2:
you know people who don’t treat others with respect

[00:28:35.05] spk_1:
those people, those people. Really? Yes. Because

[00:28:38.59] spk_2:

[00:28:39.04] spk_5:
handle it.

[00:28:40.78] spk_2:
Um, on the extreme, I

[00:28:49.33] spk_1:
will, uh, this is on the far side. I will. I will not deal with them as much. I will. I will keep a distance because it could be infectious. And I don’t want to be infected that way. But for every other part of the spectrum,

[00:29:06.04] spk_2:
um, I try. I try to coach I mean, you know, but it’s Yeah. I try to help Andi. I certainly

[00:29:12.83] spk_1:
am acting the way this is turning into. You’re not charging me 300 bucks an hour for this. Are you starting it starting into a therapy session?

[00:29:24.50] spk_2:
No, I tried toe way around. Usually. Don’t let people do this. You’re an anarchist. No, but I’ll follow. I’ll finish

[00:29:25.65] spk_1:
the thought since I started. You asked.

[00:29:27.73] spk_2:
I try to act

[00:29:28.61] spk_1:
in the way. I’m always acting in the way that I would like to be to be acted upon or, you know,

[00:29:42.02] spk_2:
treated the way I like. I treat others the way I like to be treated. So certainly by setting an example. But for a lot of people, that the example isn’t enough. Um, so it’s those ones in the middle that don’t that don’t learn

[00:29:53.92] spk_1:
from me by example of others that you have to sort of sit down and, you know, and that that could be difficult. How am I doing?

[00:30:55.34] spk_5:
You know how great I mean, the reason for those three questions is it, uh, drives to one of those values that I just talked about because, uh, smart We’re having that emotional intelligence that you understand. You have a good understanding of what what your weaknesses are and how people view you. Almost. I wouldn’t say at your worst, but like, you know what’s most annoying about you. At least you have understanding of how you behave and interact with other people and have that we see how that basic understanding and then know how you can rub people the wrong way. And then it also tells me of, um, you’re aware of what kinds of of of people sort of rub you the wrong way and how you sort of Copa that are managed. That and, uh, you know, if it was a real interview, I might choke down a little bit more on that You know how. How would you treat those kinds of people that I know you’re the most when you come across them? If if you were working out there So it’s sticking

[00:30:56.03] spk_2:
a gun

[00:31:01.67] spk_5:
on my quirky questions. Gonna come in a way of trying to get an understanding. Do we? Do we have a humble, hungry, smart person coming in the door?

[00:31:05.07] spk_1:

[00:31:11.52] spk_5:
right off the bat. Because we know that they’re gonna be a rock star in their time If if if they’ve already got it figured out.

[00:31:46.54] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. All right. We got to take another break, Jamie. Hang on. Cook, Amount and software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features that you need and the exemplary support you’ve heard me talk about That understands you and how you work. They have a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s Take

[00:31:48.88] spk_2:
two. 20 ntc. The 2020 non profit technology conference coming up.

[00:33:25.40] spk_1:
Um Mmm mmm. Mmm. Mmm. March 24 25 26 in Baltimore. Maryland non profit radio is going to be there on the exhibit floor. We are sponsored there by Cougar Mountain Software as well. So we’re gonna be sharing an oversized booth, a double booth. I’ll be doing tons of interviews, as I you’ve heard me say through the years. I think this is the fifth year I’ve brought this show to the non profit technology conference. I know that we the interviews are not a TTE. This stage, because we’re pre recorded today are not quite are not booked yet. But I know we’re gonna get 30 or more last year with 34 36 interviews in two and 1/2 days, all from smart, smart people who are doing sessions at the non profit technology conference, and I’m there to get picked their brains for your benefit. And then that helps them as well, because they get to be heard by 13,000 people over 13,000 instead of just the 50 or 70 or 100 that came to their. Their session at the conference so worked out quite well, very grateful to be sponsored by Cougar Mountain software there. If you’re going, come see us boots 3 16 and 3 18 is where we’re gonna be and you’ll be hearing a lot more about 20 NTC on. I’ve got a video on it at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony. Take two. Now, let’s go back to your organization’s health. My guest is Jamie Bursts, CEO of Zero. The end of prostate cancer. Um, are Jimmy? Um, so

[00:33:28.37] spk_2:
that was interesting. Like I said, I usually don’t

[00:33:30.78] spk_1:
love Guess. I know I stopped short of those kinds of introspective questions that I have to answer, but

[00:33:36.68] spk_2:
I feel like I was having sort of a Dick Cavett moment. You know, you don’t think you know Dick Cavett?

[00:33:42.35] spk_5:
Yeah, of course

[00:33:43.01] spk_2:
he’s watching

[00:33:43.98] spk_5:
him on HBO.

[00:33:45.11] spk_2:

[00:33:45.54] spk_5:
I think that kid going talking about baseball or history, whatever.

[00:33:49.94] spk_2:
He used to really open up. And, uh, he would talk

[00:33:53.07] spk_1:
about himself. Not as much as he would give the guests time, but

[00:33:56.95] spk_2:
he didn’t shy away

[00:33:59.29] spk_1:
from personal questions, and I always admired that him. I’ve been studying him on YouTube because some of the old stuff from the seventies is is clipped on YouTube.

[00:34:14.76] spk_2:
So I feel like I was a kind of a Dick Cavett move it. So thank you. Okay,

[00:34:15.02] spk_5:
well, hopefully we had ah revelation for you, I think. What? What happened

[00:34:19.17] spk_2:
there? Uh,

[00:35:00.80] spk_5:
you’re talking about asking those kinds of questions and probing to see if you have the values that we’re looking for. Brings it back to what I was saying earlier about vulnerability based trust because it’s not just the admitting your mistakes and weaknesses, but it’s about opening up and sharing something about yourself, Uh, that you typically wouldn’t And, um, that vulnerability based trust it’s really the glue to relationships, if you can. You sort of let your guard down and talk about, um, you know, talk, talk about you know what’s going on your head or what’s going on in your heart on your life. You typically wouldn’t share in a normal work environment that helps forge a stronger bond,

[00:35:07.33] spk_2:
absolutely within

[00:35:08.57] spk_5:
our colleagues at zero. And when

[00:35:11.04] spk_2:
we’ve got

[00:35:20.61] spk_5:
that the strong bond happening through vulnerability based trust, then it makes it really makes all the other things that happened in an organization. Like I said before the conflict stuff, um, it makes it easier to overcome.

[00:35:27.94] spk_1:
Yeah, I can absolutely, absolutely see that. See what you called vulnerability based trust. I just think of his trust. But maybe I’m thinking of it more on the friend side, You know, you’re applying it to a professional environment. But, you know, I think of the relationships I have with my friends. I mean, I

[00:35:44.09] spk_2:
open up to them, I trust them, and I become vulnerable. And they become vulnerable to me

[00:36:07.13] spk_1:
as they tell me things about their kids, their husbands, wives. That’s the, uh, again, I’m through something of it on a friendship level, and I would just call that trust. You’re You’re in a professional environment. They have to be some boundaries. Uh, so I can I see. But I like I said, I mean, I just think that is trust among friends, so I can

[00:36:12.34] spk_2:
see. And I could see how that

[00:36:17.85] spk_1:
would help you transcend other problems in the workplace.

[00:36:52.91] spk_5:
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, um, you know, having building trust is it’s really a key with loved ones. Thio building a strong relationship. So but why should it be any different with your colleagues? I think a big part of that trusted to be vulnerable and owning up to your mistakes. You know, holding up, asking for help and talking about your talking about your experiences and sort of a two degree your innermost thoughts. Because if you do this, then you feel sort of that deeper trust within the they work with every day and now

[00:36:57.88] spk_2:
s so you’re transcending. You’re transcending

[00:37:30.26] spk_1:
the average work relationship by exponentially. The average work relationship is a bunch of people who put together they don’t get the opportunity to meet each other before they’re hired. The way yours you’re describing, At least you have a better chance because because there’s so much exposure in the hiring process and I do want to get back to the hiring process to we’ll get there. That’s my job. But s o a bunch of people put together and then they have to coexist 8 10 hours a day. But

[00:37:30.46] spk_2:
they never really get to know each other. You know, they have lunches occasionally, and they have drinks. But it is There’s not really that they’re not really

[00:37:47.64] spk_1:
becoming vulnerable to each other in the environments that I’ve worked in and what I’ve consulted. I mean, I don’t see that I don’t see this level of trust among employees. It’s just a bunch of people foisted on each other, and they’re sort of treading water, doing the best they can in relationship building.

[00:37:58.73] spk_5:
Um, yeah, I’ve seen that and just about every workplace that I’ve ever been. And uh, besides uh, besides where I’m at,

[00:38:07.09] spk_2:
besides Iraq, Yeah, I

[00:38:37.93] spk_5:
agree with that way. Do our best to make time for that way encouraged. That happened during the matter, of course, of the of the work that goes on within zero. But then, you know, for example, way. Try to reinforce that on a weekly staff meeting that we have many, many staff meetings intending. Organizations are dull and they’re boring, and people will sit down and read off a bunch of numbers or a bunch of metrics. Key performance indicators and self people’s eyes bleed, and

[00:38:41.14] spk_2:

[00:39:05.42] spk_5:
taking notes, get hand cramps, and they would rather be anywhere else. But sitting around the conference from table listening to all that stuff. So instead, we we take time in our staff meetings to sort of build up team members a bit. It’s sort of a time Thio to come together, and sometimes we’ll go around the room with the question of Of getting to know each other more of Like what? Um, you know how many siblings do you have? And you know, where do you fall on that? That order or something that’s a little bit more difficult to answer? Like, um, something that was a big mistake that you made at work last year. How did that affect you out of that changing?

[00:39:18.68] spk_1:

[00:39:41.88] spk_5:
that way it’s sort of open people up, Thio being able to have that to be vulnerable and courageous and a little bit in some ways, Thio speak up. And that would strengthen the bonds with for their colleagues. And then, um, it also makes them more approachable

[00:39:42.84] spk_2:

[00:39:44.76] spk_5:
when you can be vulnerable.

[00:39:46.04] spk_2:
I’m guessing you

[00:39:50.10] spk_1:
you have. Ah, I’m guessing you have a low turnover rate, Long employees. D’oh!

[00:40:07.31] spk_5:
Yeah, we D’oh! If you look at just the leadership team, um, see, how many years of experience, including if you could mind with the, um 40 46 years across five people. So I’ve been with your English over 18 and then I have Ah, our chief development officer is, But I’ve worked with her for 10 years.

[00:40:13.78] spk_2:
Are key

[00:40:26.81] spk_5:
of events for 10 years, are our senior vice president of marketing communications For six and 1/2 years and a new person to the team has been, uh, any personal leadership team.

[00:40:49.60] spk_1:
Okay, but those first couple you cited, you know, 10 years, eight years, those there, especially for a chief development officer. You said 10 years for the vice president of development. That’s a That’s a long that. You’re Yeah, Well, you’ve earned it. You’ve earned it. That’s a long tenure. Um, I got to get back to the more, uh, more mechanicals. Although the philosophy is really, really stimulating. Um,

[00:40:59.75] spk_2:
let’s go back to the hiring. What’s what’s the next steps?

[00:41:02.23] spk_1:
Ah, the potential candidate or candidates? A couple have met lots of people throughout the organization. How do you come together and make your decision?

[00:42:20.78] spk_5:
Um, uh, we use the humble, hungry, smart framework on how we talk about people, Not not exclusively. But of course, like many other places, we’ll talk about the skill sets that are involved. Um, we could talk about things like, Oh, this person. They really know how to get razors agile. You know, this person had great demonstrated experience at their past job or she raised, you know, x amount of dollars and Stuart of along, you know, x number of donors or whatever. Uh, but by and large, we keep coming back to the framework of what did you think of not come across as being, you know, humble? Or today you really get an understanding of, um, now that they’re gonna be an attentive listener, how do you think that there are their personality will sort of match up with others who are gonna be on this team. And, uh, and if everybody’s sort of, you know, largely in an agreement that that that that the persons home hungry, smart and has a good background to them and demonstrated experience do the job way, pull the trigger and bring them on board?

[00:42:36.43] spk_1:
Do you, as CEO, have ah, right of veto or you’re just You’re just a member of the team, the way equal to everyone else in these kinds of conversations. Decision, order.

[00:42:59.20] spk_5:
If I tell people that I don’t tell people, I don’t tell vice presidents or other team leaders across the organization who they have to hire, But I do step in and tell them who they should not hire. Like if you know, somebody candidate ends up. Um I am talking with them in a red flag. It’s raised that, uh I don’t I don’t think that they’re that they have all three values for us. Thio work

[00:43:03.37] spk_2:
with to

[00:43:05.40] spk_5:
be able to without dedicating a significant amount of time to get them there. But I think a person’s gonna be

[00:43:13.89] spk_2:
okay. Because because you

[00:43:15.81] spk_1:
do meet individual, you meet individually with every candidate, right?

[00:43:20.24] spk_5:
Yeah. Eventually.

[00:43:22.90] spk_2:
Right? Right. Okay. God, you have the

[00:43:29.84] spk_5:
key to the culture of being being able to bring in just the right people who work, you know, if it succeeds.

[00:44:03.47] spk_1:
Alright, Jamie, I’ve got to take our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news that you need to be on top of so that you stay relevant, including they are former journalist at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So they understand the work that you are doing and the community you’re working in, they are at turn hyphen to dot ceo, and I want

[00:44:03.95] spk_2:
to say that the live love

[00:44:04.91] spk_1:
um We’re pre recorded today as I mentioned, so I don’t can’t shut you out by city and state, as I would like to, but, uh,

[00:44:11.75] spk_2:
you know,

[00:44:12.04] spk_1:
you are If you’re listening to the live stream Friday one

[00:44:16.85] spk_2:
o’clock Eastern time, then the love goes out

[00:45:12.11] spk_1:
to you Live. Love, live. Listen, love. Thank you. I’m grateful that you are listening to our live stream and the podcast Pleasantries toe are over 13,000 listeners. However, we fit into your life of your binging at the end of the month. Or if you’re more consistent pleasantries to the podcast audience, I’m grateful that you are with us as well. Thank you so much. We got butt loads more time for your organization’s health, and Jamie burst burst by the way you spelled b e a r s e So looks like Hearst, but with a B. So if you’re looking for him on Twitter, it’s at Jamie Bursts, which is hearse with a B. Um, we were Sometimes I take these brakes and messes me up way. We’re still talking about the hiring, whether you get a veto or no. Okay, so, um, they’re hiring. Process anything more you want to add about that the hiring before we before we move on,

[00:45:14.96] spk_5:
I think we covered it.

[00:45:15.90] spk_2:
Okay, in sufficient detail for people to get get a flavour

[00:45:23.02] spk_1:
of what it’s how this how this works, Um, you know, sort of mechanically and and in the details.

[00:45:27.42] spk_2:
What about evaluation?

[00:45:28.55] spk_1:
You already said You don’t have your end evaluations or maybe you do. But I guess they take on West less weight because there’s there’s there’s routine feedback. Is there a formal evaluation process? How does that work?

[00:46:30.06] spk_5:
Another reason. A formal evaluation process, because we just believe in in AA real time feedback, Asai said. Before it’s, uh, feedback largely comes in, uh, you know, the form of ah, the framework of, ah, being humble, hungry, smart of you asking, getting curious and asking questions of Okay, What? How you manage this project or what you communicated Thio. You know, this person or this donor? Um, I didn’t see that as being very humble. Tell me about that. And, um, you know, here’s here’s how, uh, like, shared in away from my own experiences of where maybe I wasn’t humble and, um, how how I would have handled it differently and, uh, try to give them some coaching and mentoring so they do it different next time around.

[00:46:32.64] spk_1:
Do you meet with every staff member individually?

[00:46:39.60] spk_5:
Uh, Thio give feedback like

[00:46:41.96] spk_2:
that? Yeah,

[00:47:07.76] spk_5:
sometimes. But I’m not always the one in there. Um uh, Scott, everybody on the our leadership team also, you know, living values and being able to coach and mentor others across the organization that, you know, they’re they’re responsible for the staff that were on their teams, but you were necessary. I’m I’m I’m always willing to step in and help catch them alone.

[00:47:14.76] spk_2:
Okay? Okay. Um, I want to go back to high freedom. Does that

[00:47:32.23] spk_1:
include in dealing with the men and the families that you’re working with? Like in terms of problem solving? If there’s a difficulty with the organization or something to do, our staff members empowered to take action or you know, or is it is it? I think I know the answer, but I want to ask it this way. Or is it more bureaucratic? You know the way Ah, typical organization would have to go through Ah, making an exception.

[00:48:35.95] spk_5:
Uh, no. Uh, it also know a centrist bureaucratic It, um it applies to their work out in the field and working with patients and families who have been impacted by this. Um, it goes thio being able to be, um, highly aligned, but sort of but highly aligned but being empowered to take independent action when were highly aligned and understand. Um, the values are highly aligned and understanding what’s most important right now for the organization or what our goals are and every different situation than you have the behind over freedom in order to be able to act autonomously on behalf of the organization. Thio, get the job done. Don’t believe in micro managing by any stretch of the imagination?

[00:48:40.10] spk_1:

[00:50:20.34] spk_5:
it does to our managing others within the organization. Um, I was try to coach them. Uh, sometimes they get you end up in a way that they have a certain vision for their team. Are they have a certain way that they wanna see something that we’re working on get executed. But I will tell them that you know, if you can get people 80% of the way there on executing on your vision, and that’s a massive win That’s huge. Went because they bought in to what your what your vision is, how you’re telling it to them, their understanding, how you’re how you’re communicating to them, and that’s terrific. But if you try to push beyond trying to get from 80% of them, executing on your vision to 100% that really starts to take on a life of micromanaging, exhausting work for you. And eventually that staff member of that team, team members is gonna get resentful and not trusted that they can go out. And, you know, we make their own decisions that we try to, like, pull it way back. Good, solid clarity of like what the goals are, how we be good goals on. You know what the mission is, how he behaves, what’s most important right now. What are our most important goals in any given time frame? If we have good clarity around that sort of step back and let people, um can’t manage themselves and strive to tea, leaves the mission and hit our goals without being micromanaged, that’s Ah, that’s another element of hi freedom.

[00:50:34.06] spk_1:
Interesting. Interesting to hear you see that marginal 20% as being counterproductive in the Marshall. 20% meeting expectations. You’re saying 80% instead of 100 becomes counter could become counterproductive.

[00:50:37.60] spk_5:
Yeah, you’re,

[00:50:38.19] spk_2:

[00:50:39.08] spk_5:
you know, a company that’s making widgets. You’re looking at spreadsheets and things like that of like, Okay, our best radio return is like when we’re selling this many witches. But if we sell like too many, then our return on investment starts to drop off their He’s got diminishing returns. It’s what they call it and

[00:50:54.91] spk_2:
that you’re

[00:50:55.46] spk_5:
in a company that’s making widgets. So yeah, I would say that that’s, um that’s sort of the cut off for us. Uh, you know, we’re talking about organizational health

[00:51:05.65] spk_2:

[00:51:13.42] spk_5:
You’re trying to really get them thio be 100% for for your vision than just gonna set you up for failure Way.

[00:51:19.16] spk_1:
Just have, like, four minutes or so left.

[00:51:21.21] spk_2:
Let’s let’s talk a little about your virtual employees. What do you

[00:51:25.18] spk_1:
do? Dio ensure that the’s er that HHS is instilled in nam and that they’re getting the feedback that everyone who’s ah on site is getting on and make them feel part of the team. What do you do for the virtual folks?

[00:52:33.10] spk_5:
Sure. Well, one is that we have, ah, weekly staff meeting that everybody gets on video so we all can see each other and communicate with each other while we’re doing some team building through that. A zay were talking earlier that one of the things that we do in staff meeting is it’s such a small thing, but it’s so empowering. So we take not even five minutes of staff meeting. We do something that’s called hashtag. You’re proud and through that, every every staff meeting that we have, there’s three people on staff. Go and then the next week, another three people will go, But each person calls out somebody else across the organization for living our values until a story about you know why they think that person is being humble home. We’re smart and it’s really empowering, and it draws people in no matter you know where they are. You know, whether their offices in yeah, Sacramento or where I am in Boston and

[00:52:34.88] spk_2:

[00:53:46.06] spk_5:
all points in between. A couple of other things that we do is there’s a tool that’s out there now. That sort of market is for internal communication is a slack, and it sort of Ah, people haven’t heard about it. It sort of a cross between Google chat Facebook A little bit for no internal communications divided up by channel. And you got to put you in certain little fun things in there. Like you get these, uh, a little energies and thumbs up smiley faces for different messages that you put in a different channels that better there. So we make it sort of, um, interactive in that way. Uh, that’s just happens to be, you know, where the world going with social media. So we kind of embrace that, and that helped draw people together. And the byproduct is also it takes all of this internal communication off emails focus externally, focus your email externally without it getting all clocked up with all of these internal messages that people get TC on. Yeah, at nauseam. So that’s just one of the tools in Red Show way. Help build that strong team cohesion. No matter where people are across the organization. And, uh, a few others. But I know that we’re pressed for time, but you know what? One other.

[00:53:51.08] spk_2:
Yeah, go ahead. One other thing that

[00:53:52.28] spk_5:
I would say is that

[00:53:53.17] spk_2:
my door is

[00:54:03.09] spk_5:
always open. I held, um, office hours every day for anybody that wants the common and chat things out of how they can be more feel more connected to others in the

[00:54:17.04] spk_1:
That’s a great That’s a great tactic. Office hours every day. Open office, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. We could still have a couple

[00:54:25.94] spk_2:
minutes, right? Yes. Get Yeah, we have a couple minutes left. Um, let’s, uh you mentioned

[00:54:27.79] spk_1:
before over communication did we did really talk about that. And we just didn’t label what we were talking about in the at the time over communicating.

[00:54:36.36] spk_5:
Sure. We could talk about that. It’s It’s, um it’s critical. Um, I also got, um, not from

[00:54:44.12] spk_1:
so we didn’t We didn’t do that. Okay, let’s we got about two minutes. You go ahead.

[00:56:34.43] spk_5:
Sure. That also comes from the the advantage by Patrick Ngoni and actually didn’t, uh, people sometimes don’t hear your message until they hear it for the seventh time. And, um, I don’t think I really realized that until the seven time that I read that book. Yeah. What it means is that sometimes leaders are or the chief reminding officer and reminding people about, um of of the values of reminding people about the mission to reminding people what’s most important right now. So t over communicate that in different ways, whether that’s putting it a male or a black message or by phone or video, face to face or by video they’re having heard the same message in multiple platforms helps it to sink in in a way that people really understand it. Um, I also said before about you know, that commitment of asking, clarifying questions like, Okay, what I hear you saying is this is that what I’m hearing and that gives people a chance to clarify it and get what’s being said straightened out? And we also have a role, a swell, that John silence dissent, meaning, you know, for having for having a meeting and talking about all these things on. I’ll say like, Okay, we good to move on. And, um, not everybody speaks up and says Yes, yeah, I’m good, Yeah, no concerns for me. Um, then we treat it like descent because that way it allows people to commit thio a decision that’s being made and it sort of invites them like Okay, you know, if you’re not speaking up. Done. You know what, Um, what’s on your mind with you bothering you?

[00:56:41.13] spk_1:
What’s holding you back? Okay, Silences, descent. All right, All right. Jamie Burst. We gotta leave it there. I really enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:56:45.98] spk_5:
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:56:58.20] spk_1:
My pleasure. Jamie Bursts, CEO of zero. The end of prostate cancer. Zero is at zero cancer dot or GE and he’s at Jamie Bursts. There’s excellent. Thank you. Zero proud hashtags are proud. Uh, next week, build your grantmakers relationships, which is the panel that I hosted back when there was a foundation center. Of course, now they’re merged with guidestar. But when there was the foundation center, I hosted a panel there, and we’ll hear it next week. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:57:26.47] spk_2:
Bye, Cougar Mountain Software

[00:57:45.33] spk_1:
Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lee Woods is the line producer.

[00:58:28.78] spk_4:
There’s the music shows. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. You With Me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.