Category Archives: Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Nonprofit Radio for June 21, 2021: Movement Messaging & Farewell, Maria Semple

My Guests:

Hannah Thomas & Morgan Fletcher: Movement Messaging

Expanding on the partnership theme two weeks ago, consider building a movement with orgs outside your direct mission. You’ll want cohesive, effective messaging and that’s where Hannah Thomas and Morgan Fletcher can help. Hannah is with Big Duck and Morgan is at Girls for Gender Equity. This is part of our 21NTC coverage.

 

 

 

 

 

Maria Semple: Farewell, Maria Semple

Maria Semple

Her first Nonprofit Radio was February 11, 2011. Soon after she became our prospect research contributor. Maria’s practice has evolved and this is her last show. Quoting somebody, nobody can identify: “Don’t cry because it’s over; smile because it happened.”

 

 

 

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[00:00:11.24] spk_4:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big

[00:00:15.74] spk_2:
non profit ideas for

[00:01:51.04] spk_6:
The other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with hyper nutri mia if you shared the salty idea that you missed this week’s show movement messaging, expanding on the partnership theme two weeks ago, consider building a movement with org’s outside your direct mission. You’ll want cohesive effective messaging and that’s where Hannah thomas and morgan fletcher can help Hannah is with big duck and morgan is at girls for gender equity. This is part of our 21 NTC coverage and farewell Maria Semple Her first nonprofit radio was February 11, Soon after she became our prospect research contributor, Maria’s practice has evolved and this is her last show quoting somebody nobody can identify, don’t cry because it’s over smile because it happened. tony state too podcast pleasantries were sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Let’s get started. Shall we hear is movement

[00:01:54.62] spk_2:
messaging.

[00:02:11.74] spk_5:
Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 MTC. The 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21. NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c O. My guests

[00:02:12.42] spk_2:
now are Hannah, thomas

[00:02:23.64] spk_5:
senior strategist at big duck and morgan fletcher, Director of marketing and storytelling at girls for gender equity. Hello morgan welcome.

[00:02:26.44] spk_3:
Hey, tony excited to be here,

[00:02:28.51] spk_1:
I. tony Thank

[00:02:33.64] spk_5:
you. Pleasure to have you on nonprofit radio and our coverage of the 21 MTC uh your

[00:02:36.68] spk_2:
session topic

[00:02:41.24] spk_5:
is me versus we. Well, we versus me. We versus me.

[00:02:42.60] spk_2:
Maybe it makes a difference.

[00:02:55.04] spk_5:
We’ll find out if it makes a difference, but we’ll get it correct. We versus me Building messaging for a movement. Hannah, would you get us started with with some basics? What is this movement messaging that we are talking about?

[00:02:58.54] spk_3:
Yeah, I’d love to start us off with that. Um, so to set some context in the nonprofit landscape over the

[00:03:05.49] spk_1:
last few years, there’s

[00:03:38.34] spk_3:
been a lot of efforts made by nonprofits to band together in coalition to work in partnership um in in service of movements that exist beyond even just the organization’s mission. Um, so those are causes that are benefiting the collective sector, benefiting the larger world. Um and they really require a different take on messaging. A lot of times, nonprofits are very focused on clearly articulating themselves in their mission and making sure their audiences are really motivated to support them. But movement messaging in order to be effective, has to be used by multiple voices, multiple entities, um and move a bunch of different audiences to take action in support of a larger cause. Um So where when we’re talking about movement messaging, we’re talking about sort of a reframing um from me to we so that that sort of explains the title there.

[00:04:16.24] spk_5:
Okay, So we we versus me is Okay or Me versus we is okay, but we’re going to go from me to we Exactly not. We to me, that’s the opposite of what we’re trying to do. All right. That would be taking a great cause and distilling it down to uh were the center of the universe, and we’re the only ones who can do this work. So the rest of you are out exactly

[00:04:19.01] spk_3:
opposite.

[00:04:48.54] spk_5:
That’s exactly what we’re not doing, right? That’s antithetical to what we’re talking about. Okay. All right, um, morgan. Let’s bring you in. Let’s help us understand what the value is of working outside our mission. Because I I want to I’m thinking of our listeners. You know, they they’re they’re tied up in their work and I want them to help or I want to help you to help them see the benefit of seeing outside your own individual mission to a broader cause. So what what what was the experience that girls for gender equity?

[00:06:34.84] spk_1:
Yeah, for sure. So it goes for gender equity and we call ourselves G for short, just as context for who we are. An intergenerational organization based in Brooklyn. Um, that’s centering black cis gender and transgender girls and gender non conforming non binary youth of color in the fight for gender and racial justice. So with the mission statement like that obviously actually is quite broad, which allows us a lot of opportunity to partner and collaborate with organizations who are able to meet us at the intersections of the lived experiences of the young people that were working with. So, for example, Environmental justice, economic justice, all these other issues are also racial justice issues. And so we have a lot of entry points to our work, particularly for this session with Hannah. We I was speaking about a national agenda for black girls, which is G. S. First national campaign that we launched in alignment with the presidential election. Keeping in mind that we were always trying to center young people of diverse backgrounds but of color To help us shift policy priorities and have them actually be informed by people who need the change in their lives. So there are plenty of organizations that we partnered with in this work. We had about 60 endorsing organizations. And the campaign itself is spearheaded by a steering committee of 80 young people from across the country and they each represent their own organizations that are local. So we’re able to work collaboratively with these organizations that may be may fall under the umbrella of what we’re talking about, right, these intersectional areas of young people’s experiences, but they may not be, you know, exactly cookie cutter like girls for gender equity, but the issues that we’re talking about are in alignment with theirs. And so we’re able to develop strong messaging that all of the organizations collaborating with us can uplift and use and take action on

[00:07:01.14] spk_5:
any. Was there any consternation at G about working in broader coalitions and and excuse me, maybe, you know, diluting some of our own work, you know, were there any? Was there any pushback like in the organization? May be among the board? Just you know, I’m trying to help people see what what obstacles might be might be out there for them to do this

[00:08:36.54] spk_1:
work? Absolutely, yeah. Did you have any of that? We were very fortunate. I will say that um we had a really good base of organizations that we were used to collaborating with in this way who were aligned with our values? Already newer organizations of course came in and um, you know, did a gut check with us and had we had internal conversations and we hold we hold regular meetings for those folks as well as we kind of catch them up on where our messaging is coming from to continue to check that we are still in alignment and with our priorities and framing. But I would say that actually the place where we experience the most challenge and growth as an organization and as a campaign running team was in the messaging around identity. You know, you heard me list a couple of different gender presentations and identity that one might claim moving through this world and for us, especially as we’re co collaborate and co designing this campaign with the young people in the steering committee. We had a lot of conversations around like, well honestly, who’s a black girl? Why are we framing it this way? Do we, you know, how expensive is this terminology? And does it accurately represent? Do people who are on this campaign feel accurately represented by this language? So I would say that a lot not a lot of but most of the pushback that we were receiving was extremely useful because it was coming from young people themselves who were saying, you know, I’m not binary, I don’t love that, this is framed this way. And I’m like, as you know, as a person who’s in charge of the frame and like great, keep giving me that feedback, right? Let’s create a campaign that actually represents you and how you’re moving through this world. That’s the point. So I would say a lot of constantly having that dialogue so we can continue to make sure that the campaign is serving the people, it’s intending to serve.

[00:08:50.34] spk_5:
I have to broaden my mind because when I got if I if I were getting that kind of feedback that you gotta be like, this is so annoying, why can’t you just agree with what we all we all the rest of us agreed on. Why can’t you just jump on board what you have to cause

[00:08:58.25] spk_2:
trouble? So

[00:08:59.49] spk_1:
it makes it a really time consuming

[00:09:22.44] spk_5:
process. It’s frustrating, but you always frustration usually leads to a better place. I mean if it’s channeled right, you know it’s unproductive than then it’s destructive but you know in creativity I found that frustration usually leads to a better a better outcome. Alright let’s go back to you now. So take a little broader Hannah help us identify like what, how does Big Duck think of a movement? What’s a what’s a movement?

[00:09:56.44] spk_3:
Yeah. I think um actually really related to what you’re just talking about, the language, the definitions, all of this stuff is you know always evolving and all we were always adapting what we think about as a movement and the role that messaging can play in that. Um But generally a big duck. We’re thinking about a movement as the commitment of many to work together and create transformative change based on a shared purpose or goal. And we see movement

[00:09:57.55] spk_5:
any. I’m distilling that down to uh many, working on a shared purpose or goal.

[00:10:04.27] spk_3:
That’s right towards transformative change.

[00:10:26.54] spk_5:
Okay, Okay. And how about um the messaging? How do you conceive of the messaging? And then we’re gonna we’re gonna have to dive in and explain how we how we all work together to ally around a common message, but help us understand. I mean, are we just talking about the simple it’s just a simple communications. The what each of us produce.

[00:10:41.34] spk_3:
Yeah, we are talking about, you know, all of the different ways that you can communicate something to an audience and try and prompt them or motivate them to take action with you. And so that can be, you know, in a tweet, that can be all different sorts of ways that you can communicate out. That can be in the stories that you tell, the narratives that you’re trying to disrupt or push forward. Um there’s a lot of different ways that you can that can be at a rally when somebody is giving a speech, what’s being said there in that context. Um so we’re really thinking big big about what what messaging can look like and trying not to have a narrower prescriptive view.

[00:11:34.74] spk_5:
Okay, so yeah, whatever channels, whatever channels you have, and then does does each well, before we get to approval, like getting messaging approved? So, I don’t know, we’ll talk about that process if it’s even necessary. But how do you how do you start to bring folks together, around around a common message with, you know, inclusivity? And uh you just just convene a meeting and then you start somebody produce a document that everybody comments on it.

[00:11:38.16] spk_2:
How does this process work?

[00:11:41.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I would

[00:12:56.94] spk_3:
say that there’s probably a lot of different processes that work. Um but we found that helpful like in um to to align yourself with other organizations, other people, individuals who are would be aligned around a common cause is too start the conversation around shared values. Um and the opportunity agenda is obviously a great resource, doing a lot of work around storytelling using values and all that, but shared values are really an effective in for folks who wouldn’t otherwise get the nitty gritty of of what you’re trying to achieve, to understand their role in your cause and understand how it relates to their own. Um So we we talked about in our session all of the different ways that you can like sort of frame frame this cause in ways that use those deep shared values and also you know, fill in the context around that. Um So you know, we all believe in love. Um, so or we all believe in opportunity. Um, so maybe that’s an effective in for somebody, an organization who back in the day was advocating for a gay marriage, right? There was a lot of that was a great example at the time, actually, of the way that shared values were a really efficient, effective way for people to move hearts and minds, um, and to gather, you know, some momentum around this cause that on the surface, on the policy level folks weren’t really jelling with.

[00:13:11.64] spk_5:
That’s a great example. Yeah. Love who’s gonna disagree with that?

[00:13:15.74] spk_1:
Exactly,

[00:13:16.39] spk_3:
literally no one

[00:13:17.43] spk_5:
I’m the I’m the anti Love, I’m the anti Love

[00:13:21.16] spk_1:
candidate, tough to make

[00:13:24.26] spk_5:
not in favor of that.

[00:13:25.21] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s my platform

[00:13:26.50] spk_6:
is uh is hate, right?

[00:13:57.74] spk_5:
Well, there are people who have that, but they don’t call it that. Um even they would say that we I agree with Love. We agree with Love. Alright. So cool. All right. All right. Um And then it’s starting to frame these messages like you said, I’m kind of in the details, like So then All right. So, we have these shared values morgan. How do we start to build messaging? We just want to share documents that uh people start contributing to.

[00:14:00.23] spk_2:
How did that work?

[00:14:54.74] spk_1:
Yes, the process. Well, for us, honestly, it’s it really is that fundamental basic, just kind of like, look, let’s just start putting some things down. Of course, there’s all sorts of like jazzy processes you could design and do all sorts of like discovery conversations and, you know, you can call it by those names and that is what it is. But I think ultimately we really did just sit down as a team internal and lay out our vision as it aligned with, of course, the larger goals of the organization, because this was specific to a campaign, but this applies to all of our work. We sit down as a team, we pull out a document, um, and this was developed in the time where we could be in person at our office, so we were able to sit down together in a white board, technically, and put everything down, and then we started to introduce that to people that we thought would be great allies in the work. And so we had our entry points at each organization, based on people we knew through our connections personally. Um, and also just kind of put out a general call to action into these organizing spaces that we knew had similar values alignment or values alignment, and similar ideas about a progressive future for black girls. So we could run with that. So it really wasn’t. It really was a lot of google documents. Honestly.

[00:15:22.54] spk_5:
All right. So, so morgan did you have a formal organization that that you all created or this just like this? You didn’t make a legal organization out of all these entities? Right. You just you just all contributed to a campaign,

[00:15:50.34] spk_1:
correct? So we remained Girls for gender equity. And we launched a national agenda as an initiative of Girls for gender equity. Within that. We do have a steering committee, as I mentioned, that young people and then we also have the partner organizations who are represented by those young people and some who are not who are partners in the work at large. And so those things, those groups all have names, but we did not go about formalizing legally a new entity.

[00:16:05.74] spk_5:
Okay, Okay. Not necessary. Um, and so while this is going on, uh well, this larger campaign is going on, you’re still doing your own, your own messaging, Right, Aggie. You know, that’s not like that suspended or anything.

[00:16:12.21] spk_1:
No, definitely still definitely juggling both. Right. All right.

[00:16:17.84] spk_5:
And and how does how is fundraising impacted? Was was part of the campaign for fundraising for the for the entities or it was it was a different a different call to action?

[00:17:33.74] spk_1:
Yeah, fundraising is certainly call to action for national agenda specifically because it has its own funding. And so, you know, we’re fundraising for G were fundraising for a national agenda. And of course we are talking about G. I mean, we do narrative shift work, we do direct service work. We also do organizing policy campaigns work. So there are several different buckets of work that were fundraising for at any time. Um, I think what our process has been to keeping that streamlined for and under comprehensive and clear for our audiences is just naming, but in very clear, consistent terms, all of what we’re holding as best we can and acknowledging that it’s a lot and that allows us to lean into this the, you know, what, what Hannah and I were talking about before around intersectionality and the holistic nous of the work and the holistic nous of the movement work. Right? So we can say we’ve been very explicit about a national agenda is focusing on these national priorities. However, at a city and state level in new york where we’re based, this is what else we’re holding and how it is interlaced with these other priorities. And so we’re able to flesh out where all these things are meeting and also naming, you know, there you can choose to support any of these, but ultimately supporting us will support all of them.

[00:18:01.14] spk_5:
Hannah, help us understand some more around the the complexities of messaging and consistent messaging or maybe maybe have some big some best practices that Big Duck or something. Help us flush out the details of getting consistent messaging across all your, all the entities contributing to well, in morgan’s cases with the national agenda, but you know, whatever, whatever cause we might be working toward.

[00:18:46.14] spk_3:
Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because at Big Duck primarily were preaching, you need to have one voice, a very consistent voice, a very aligned voice. Everybody should be a brand ambassador who understands deeply what you’re positioning is, what your personality is, should be able to speak. You know, all you know, sounding the same with movements. I think it’s actually very different. I think you have to necessarily make space for people to communicate. The message is in their own way using their own personalities. Um the movement can’t it’s really in my view like an exercise in relinquishing control in a lot of ways and making sure that it’s it’s something that others can own as well and feel like it’s theirs to speak about in their own voice.

[00:19:01.14] spk_5:
It’s interesting like nobody owns it, but everybody, everybody owns it, but nobody owns it.

[00:19:53.94] spk_3:
Exactly. And that’s why you can see a lot of um successful movements. One that I think is really cool is the land back movement and campaign. So there are website is very simple and it has a manifesto with about 10 lines of text on it about all the different meanings that land back has in terms of a literal, you know, meaning of we want to get this land back. But also the narrative, this means about our relation to our relationship to the environment, our relationship to racial justice, all of these different things. So it sort of sets up a basic something to work with. But if you look at the hashtag land back on instagram or something like that, there are so many folks, so many individuals who are able to um build meaning from that from that manifesto and take it in new directions and give it new life all sort of aligned generally around that manifesto, but really expanding um expanding the meaning.

[00:20:12.04] spk_5:
Anything either of you want to want to say about this sort of this consistent shared messaging

[00:20:15.14] spk_2:
Before we uh

[00:20:16.47] spk_5:
before we move on, morgan you’re shaking your head. You want to add some more.

[00:20:39.84] spk_1:
Yeah, I just wanted to underscore I think how important it is for there to be a muscle for constant vulnerability, openness to feedback and collaboration. Um you know, campaigns as Hannah was saying, you know, folks are able to step into the campaign work individuals and organizations and make it their own in a way and that is so special and unique and you also want to be sure that that does not spiral into another direction of course. And so you want to also provide structure and infrastructure for folks to feel supported as they’re moving with this campaign. Right?

[00:20:54.54] spk_5:
Like what? Like what kind of structure and infrastructure?

[00:20:56.94] spk_1:
Yeah, So I would say, you know, developing really basic tools that people can use, like messaging, kids digital tool kits to provide folks with key talking points graphics, if you want there to be visual cohesion to your campaign and folks don’t always use that stuff, you know, of course they’re like, that doesn’t match individuals might be like, doesn’t match my aesthetic organizations might be like, you know, we want to frame it a little differently. So the intersection with our work is more cohesive and clear to our audiences, but you want to give folks a starting point so they can say, you know, I like looking at land, land backs manifesto, they can refer to some tools and documents and say, okay, I know where this is rooted. And I’m going to pull these pieces from it for my, my specific messaging or my organization specific messaging and then having consistent checking with folks, you know, updating that regularly, letting folks know it’s being updated, these real basic communications that get lost because you’re holding so much.

[00:22:09.24] spk_5:
Do you feel like giving Tuesday is an example of what we’re talking about, or like spun large, you know, billions of dollars now? Or is that really something, something different because it’s so decentralized? I mean we’re talking about something decentralized here, like I said everybody owns it but nobody owns it, but I don’t know do you feel like giving Tuesday is an example of could be an example large of what we’re talking about or or no, that’s really something different.

[00:22:46.74] spk_1:
I think so, especially to disagree with me and say something. No, I was thinking about it, you know, I think um I mean we’re talking specifically about very progressive movements. I certainly am, but I’m thinking about how they, you know, they really provide, we are obviously participating giving Tuesday um and they always provide such incredible materials. So you you feel so clear through the process. Okay, I’ve got 44 months, six months out. How do I build this campaign around this moment? Right. And I always feel so prepared for giving Tuesday because they’re able to roll out such robust materials to build that infrastructure for us as organizations.

[00:23:08.04] spk_5:
Alright, well, there’s at least lessons to take from giving Tuesday in terms of the support you mentioned, support infrastructure. Um one of the things that you mentioned in your session description Hannah is that you want folks to reconsider some best practices that may be hindering their cause. What does that mean?

[00:23:09.14] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:24:37.94] spk_3:
we, we hit on some of it earlier when we’re talking about intersectionality and making space for, you know, other causes or things that are not directly in your lane, but maybe in the next lane over. Um I wanted to include say this Audrey Lorde quote. There’s no such thing as a single issue struggle because we do not live single issue lives. So if you are an environmental organization, but you don’t see how that could connect to racial justice or to voting rights or to whatever else may be out there. You’re missing some great opportunities to expose, you know, that there’s critical connections between all that we’re doing and it can be really hard. That’s the me versus we inaction is like I need these dollars, I need these donors, I need the spotlight all of that versus a different mindset, which which we think of as a scarcity versus abundance mindset. Um, so what I was just explaining is an example of some scarcity thinking versus we want to spotlight this whole ecosystem of change we’ve got going on of which we are a piece. Um, there’s room to show how we’re connected to what our peers are doing. There’s enough dollars and donors to go around. It doesn’t have to be us who gets all 50 of those donors dollars. Maybe they give us five, and they give everybody else five to um and again, a de emphasis maybe on dollars, right? Folks have currency that goes outside of, you know, money. And how are you showing value for that? So, a lot of ways of like kind of de centering your organization in a healthy and healthy and productive way. So that’s one example of disrupting sort of best practices that we think about

[00:24:56.44] spk_5:
it. And that’s related to what you had said earlier about surrendering control. The point that nobody owns

[00:24:58.78] spk_2:
this.

[00:25:07.54] spk_5:
You have another one. That’s that’s very good de centering. Right? What else? Another another sort of mind shift that you want to encourage?

[00:25:38.44] spk_3:
Yeah, we had a whole section where we were talking about disrupting um dominant narratives, which I think morgan can speak to a little bit more. But dominant narratives are these sort of pervasive, like, the way we say things are the way we tell things, and the things that we assume that we are are all really sharing um movements are a great opportunity to really disrupt that and and form new narratives um that are healthier and that are um more progressive and are gonna frankly help us transform the world in the way we want to, I don’t know, morgan if you wanted to chime in.

[00:27:14.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I would just add as, like, a specific example, um you know, for us, when we’re talking about when G is talking about are the constituents in our programs and young people who are in our campaigns, You know, a lot of the work that we do is around shifting the narrative around the your audience cannot see this or cannot hear this or see it, but I’m using air quotes when I talk about the monolithic black girl, right? Like this and no community is monolithic, this is it. This means nothing, right? So what are you know, for us to break down that absurd premise? Um it requires us to really give opportunity to young people in our programs um to tell their unique story as they want to tell it. And so for us, our narrative shifting work looks like passing the mic. It’s not about me, the director of marketing storytelling, going to a rally and giving a really great speech. You know, it’s about young people going to that rally and them giving great speeches or speak in front of city council in new york, which we do quite frequently or talking to legislators across the country. You know, other types of campaigns that we’re building out right now. Video and social media storytelling campaigns that really allow us to present a breath of experiences and all those people are saying I fall somewhere on this black girlhood spectrum, This identity spectrum and my story may not look like this young person or that person or that person, but it is still important, it is still affected by the legislation that’s happening in this country and therefore it’s still relevant. Okay, I have

[00:27:16.64] spk_5:
a little uh, we’re going on in the background. I don’t know if you can hear that buzz, so yes, you can.

[00:27:24.44] spk_2:
Okay, sorry. Um All right, um

[00:27:30.64] spk_5:
let’s let’s leave it there. But Hannah, why don’t you just take us out with some last minute motivation? I I can see ego has to be, you know, checked at the door. You know, we’ve been talking about decentralization, de centering yourself and and your organization. Um so yeah, Hannah leave us with some last last, second last minute motivation.

[00:28:31.14] spk_3:
I have the perfect way to close this out and this is what we close our our presentation with was how important the role of a radical imagination is in helping develop movement messaging and helping you create that story that you want to tell and move folks towards action. I think it has taken a paraphrasing Adrian Marie Brown, who um wrote an emergent strategy, how it took somebody else’s imagination for this world that we have right now to come to fruition right for all of these structures and all of everything going on to happen. And we need to use our imagination if we want to create something different. And I think that if nowhere else that really radical imagination that proud, you know, proclamation of a future that we’re going to get to really belongs in movement messaging. Um so it’s more of an abstract ending note, but really important to use your imagination and be sharing, sharing your vision for the future. Unapologetically,

[00:28:51.74] spk_5:
that’s Hannah thomas, senior strategist at Big Duck also was morgan fletcher director of marketing and storytelling. A. G girls for gender equity, Hannah morgan, thank you both very much. Thanks so much.

[00:29:01.66] spk_3:
Thank you. Thanks tony

[00:29:13.64] spk_5:
Glad to have you and thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21. Ntc we’re sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two

[00:29:15.01] spk_2:
dot C o.

[00:30:36.54] spk_6:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, you remember them, The Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york times, The Wall Street Journal, Usa today stanford Social Innovation review Oh, the Washington Post the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turn to clients have gotten exposure. You want that kind of press turn hyphen two dot c o. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony to take to the pleasantries, the podcast pleasantries have to come out. They haven’t been for some time. They’ve been dormant. They’ve been on hiatus for several weeks, but they’re back pleasantries to our podcast audience. U 13,000 plus listeners throughout the world. We’ve got listeners, yeah, we’ve got listeners in Germany um, where else besides north America? Certainly north America, we’ve got Canada and Mexico covered. Uh, so those go without saying not, not that we take the, not that we take the northern and southern neighbor listeners for granted. No, no, no, but they’re, they’re, it’s, it’s just kind of understood, you know, it’s, it’s tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:30:40.45] spk_2:
You just know that

[00:30:56.64] spk_6:
all the north american countries are going to be represented. It’s, it’s just, it’s subsumed in the name. That’s that’s, that’s what it is. That that that’s what I mean to say. It’s subsumed. So we’ve got North America covered that. Subsumed going

[00:30:56.94] spk_2:
abroad. Oh,

[00:30:58.03] spk_5:
Germany.

[00:30:59.56] spk_2:
Um often checking

[00:32:42.74] spk_6:
in uh, italy France UK, certainly o u k. Those are the ones that come to mind and if you’re out there in other countries beyond those just named, let me know. I’d love to shut you out. Love to the pleasantries. The pleasantries. I’m grateful. I am grateful that you listen two nonprofit radio week after week. I’m glad the show brings you value. I hope it gives you actionable steps or things you can start thinking about to lead to action. That that’s what this is about. Right? So the pleasantries to you, our many, many podcast listeners, I’m grateful. That is Tony’s take two send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing, that’s what we’re talking about. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has enterprise level price tags. No, no, not here, sending blue’s price for nonprofits, it’s an easy to use marketing platform. They walk you through the steps of building a campaign. You want to try them out and get a free month, send him blue. Hit the listener landing page at tony dot M A slash send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for nonprofit radio Here is a farewell Maria Semple.

[00:32:46.74] spk_5:
It always has been my pleasure to welcome Maria simple to the show. Of course,

[00:32:52.15] spk_2:
month after month, year after

[00:32:53.54] spk_5:
year, many years.

[00:32:55.24] spk_6:
Uh, today it’s

[00:32:58.54] spk_5:
uh bittersweet to welcome Maria sample back to nonprofit

[00:33:04.74] spk_2:
radio for a farewell. You know her, she is the prospect

[00:33:06.98] spk_5:
finder, a trainer and speaker on prospect research.

[00:33:10.36] spk_2:
Her latest book is

[00:33:11.28] spk_5:
magnify your business tips tools and strategies

[00:33:17.84] spk_2:
for growing your business or your non profit she’s are dyin of dirt cheap and free.

[00:33:28.24] spk_5:
She has been for many years, she’s at the prospect finder dot com and at Maria Semple, I always used to

[00:33:29.06] spk_2:
say Maria, it’s a pleasure to welcome you back. It’s a little like I said bittersweet this time though,

[00:33:33.71] spk_5:
hello, hello and well you’re still welcome. You’re still very welcome. It’s just not so much of a pleasure that’s

[00:33:57.34] spk_0:
all. Uh, well thank you for having me back for a little bit of a farewell and you’re right, Tony. It is bitter sweet. Um, you know you and I have been talking in one way or another and having it recorded before the time of internet radio, we were doing some tele recordings, right? We would do recorded calls and that’s right. We had those phone

[00:34:01.68] spk_2:
calls. Tell us we did a few tele calls together about planned giving and prospect research. Yes,

[00:34:07.31] spk_0:
yeah. Yeah. Back back in the day when it was tele classes. Right.

[00:34:11.52] spk_6:
Right.

[00:34:12.44] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:34:13.29] spk_5:
Yes. And then we

[00:34:14.47] spk_2:
did some, some conferences together.

[00:34:16.88] spk_5:
That’s right.

[00:34:17.70] spk_2:
Prospect

[00:34:29.34] spk_5:
research and planned giving. Um, and then it’s been many years on, on nonprofit radio you, it’s been like eight years or so. You’ve been with the show.

[00:34:30.32] spk_0:
Absolutely prospect

[00:34:31.99] spk_2:
research contributor.

[00:34:33.05] spk_5:
What’s

[00:34:33.91] spk_2:
going on? What’s going on in your professional life?

[00:36:18.53] spk_0:
Well, you know, my business, you know, in the last couple of years has expanded and, and uh, focused a little bit more, you know, like the title of my book Magnify Your Business. It’s really kind of focused a little more on online marketing, strategy, social media, email marketing linkedin and really um you know, expanding to beyond nonprofits as well. So I work with a lot of small businesses and financial advisors. Um and and I’ve been, you know, I pulled back a little bit, I’ve been, you know, having moved to uh beautiful crystal coast of north Carolina. I’ve been working more part time than full time as I was back in New Jersey. Um and I’m doing a ton of volunteering for a number of different organizations and capacities. And one of the most recent projects that I’m really excited about is expanding broadband. And you know, that’s a big topic right now, coincidentally, so last year I was invited to serve on a committee here in carter County to expand broadband opportunity um in underserved and not served at all regions believe it or not, there are pockets down east and so forth. They just don’t have any internet. Um, and so we saw in the last year how important it was to be able to stay connected. Um, and so through the carter at County Economic Development Foundation, um, I’m continue to serve on a committee that’s going to now be implementing some of the deficiencies in areas that were identified in the digital digital inclusion report, um, that that came out. So that’s one of the big projects.

[00:36:40.43] spk_5:
So you’re working more part time and that means you’re not going to be contributing prospect research wisdom as our deutschland of dirt, cheap and free on nonprofit radio So your, your focus is shifted

[00:36:46.61] spk_2:
a little more,

[00:37:02.03] spk_5:
little more business oriented, only part time, a lot of volunteer work, which I love because we only live 12 miles apart about so uh, helping you’re helping my community to, uh, we’re in the same county. Um All right. I

[00:37:02.74] spk_2:
understand that,

[00:37:04.34] spk_5:
so happy to hear it, but I understand

[00:37:07.83] spk_0:
and I’m serving as my H. O. A. Board president. Uh

[00:37:12.82] spk_5:
I hate H. O. S. Oh my God when I moved here uh Homeowners

[00:37:18.39] spk_2:
associations.

[00:37:22.83] spk_5:
Yeah. So your uh your those people who say you can’t you can’t put this color on your door and you can’t hang this on your windows at christmas time. Is that you?

[00:37:30.13] spk_0:
Unfortunately. Unfortunately I I didn’t I unfortunately. Yes, there are there are rules when you live in an H. O. A. Community, so either you live in one or you don’t.

[00:37:43.53] spk_2:
Alright, alright. I don’t mean you’re the president,

[00:37:47.73] spk_5:
you’re going to be the scrooge time, your lights are too bright or whatever. You

[00:37:52.75] spk_0:
know, we don’t get into lighting because it’s all common area lighting. It’s a condo complex. It’s not single family homes.

[00:38:00.42] spk_5:
Right. Right. Well, people can outline their windows with christmas lights or something. We

[00:38:04.94] spk_0:
allow that. That’s fine.

[00:38:06.72] spk_5:
Okay.

[00:38:08.26] spk_0:
We’ll have christmas lights. Oh,

[00:38:10.63] spk_2:
all right. I’m getting a sense of why I know I

[00:38:14.97] spk_0:
paint your door any color you want to paint your door? There’s a specific color. You have to paint your door

[00:38:19.73] spk_6:
specific color for

[00:38:20.89] spk_0:
everybody. All right.

[00:38:22.82] spk_5:
All right, madam, President? Yeah, I’m not uh

[00:38:25.92] spk_2:
personally I’m not too keen on the

[00:38:37.62] spk_5:
U. S. But I I understand you you bought knowing that you were part of an H. O. A. So I guess you might as well be active in it so you can insert some degree of reasonableness. I hope. Yes,

[00:38:41.87] spk_0:
I hope. Well, I’m also the chair of the social committee. So I’m all about the fun.

[00:38:46.82] spk_5:
Okay, well, but if you harass people too badly on their door color, you may not, you may have zero people at your social events. So activity may offset the other. We’ll see. We’ll see how those two things are playing in

[00:39:26.02] spk_0:
the nonprofit space. Also tony You know, I think I’ve mentioned to you before, there’s something called the Crystal Coast nonprofit network that exists. And uh, we’ve, I’ve been facilitating the meetings through zoom um, for the, over the last year. Uh, and so it’s starting in september, we’re going to start meeting again in person. So you should really come out and get to know some of those nonprofits here in carter county. Be fun to have you attend?

[00:39:31.02] spk_2:
I’d love to, I, yeah, you

[00:39:31.44] spk_5:
mentioned that before. I think

[00:39:32.37] spk_2:
I followed up and then

[00:39:34.22] spk_5:
I didn’t, I’m

[00:39:35.61] spk_2:
not sure what happened after

[00:39:57.22] spk_0:
that. Well anyway, september. We’re taking a break, not meeting in uh, july and august, we just met this week not meeting july and august meeting again. September. And uh, so that’s a nice, nice network of non profits and I launched a website for them, created a site and launched it for them so that they had a space online. Um, so yeah, I’ll send you the link.

[00:39:59.17] spk_2:
Okay. Crystal

[00:39:59.81] spk_5:
Coast. Alright. Crystal Coast

[00:40:01.31] spk_2:
nonprofits. All right.

[00:40:02.71] spk_5:
Yeah.

[00:40:03.20] spk_2:
Alright, Maria, Well, you know, I’m grateful for all the hours we spent together over eight

[00:40:09.17] spk_5:
years.

[00:40:15.71] spk_2:
You helping nonprofits understand prospect research, how important it is. It’s, it’s, it’s so much richer than a lot of people realize it goes way beyond google search way way and

[00:40:21.39] spk_5:
people have been following,

[00:40:23.61] spk_2:
you know that? Yeah. So I guess I can just say thank you for everything you contributed for, for

[00:40:28.37] spk_5:
all our listeners

[00:40:29.26] spk_2:
over so many years. Thank you very much. You’re

[00:40:31.49] spk_0:
very welcome and thanks so much for having me. It’s been great, great fun.

[00:40:35.53] spk_5:
It’s always been a pleasure. Today is

[00:40:37.18] spk_2:
a little tough, but

[00:40:42.51] spk_5:
up until today it’s always been a pleasure. Alright, alright. She’s Maria Semple, she’s still the prospect find her, but just part time and more business oriented.

[00:40:48.11] spk_2:
Her sight, the

[00:40:49.60] spk_5:
prospect finder dot com and at Maria

[00:40:53.61] spk_2:
Semple. Thank you Maria and so long,

[00:40:55.51] spk_0:
so long now take care

[00:41:40.31] spk_6:
next week let’s try to get amY sample ward or Gene Takagi back. I’m working on that. If not, they’ll be up soon and next week will be more from 21. Ntc if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications. You remember them? You’ve heard of them a couple times. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only, all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue. Creative Producer is Claire

[00:41:52.71] spk_4:
Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 90

[00:41:58.99] spk_6:
5%

[00:42:05.41] spk_4:
Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for June 14, 2021: CRM Selection & What To Ask Before Your New Website

My Guests:

Rubin Singh: CRM Selection

As part of our continuing 21NTC coverage, Rubin Singh returns to help you focus on what matters in CRM selection. To keep you safe from a serious misstep, he also shares his thoughts on what else might be the problem, besides your CRM database. Rubin is CEO of One Tenth Consulting.

 

 

 

Stephen Tidmore: What To Ask Before Your New Website

Stephen Tidmore from Mighty Citizen built his first website in 1999, and hasn’t stopped. He shares the questions you need to ask up front, before you embark on a new website project. This is also from 21NTC.

 

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:46.34] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. We’re back to regular energy low. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Dyskinesia if you moved me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Non profit partnerships. Our 21 NTC panel reminds you you don’t have to do your work alone. You can increase your exposure by promoting the work of other org’s and even fundraise in partnership with other nonprofits. They’re taylor leak with corporate accountability and Jack Valor at Mall Warwick, donor digital and partnerships with African american churches now that you’re motivated to partner up Look to black churches, Anita lee and Oliver. Richmond help you understand the idiosyncrasies of church culture and how to cultivate a relationship. Anita is from Anita uplifts and Oliver is with Kingdom Partners. This is also from 21 NTC. You see how the show is put together here. It doesn’t just happen. You see this pervasive partnership theme running through which is what makes it pervasive, it’s all, it’s all coordinated. It’s all thought out On Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome a new sponsor, send in blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue kicking off our partnership theme show here is non profit partnerships. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C. O. My guests now are tailor leak and Jack Valor Taylor is Digital director at corporate accountability and Jack is senior account executive at Mall Warwick donor. Digital Tell her Jack, welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:57.24] spk_1:
Thanks very nice to you. Pleasure

[00:02:58.44] spk_3:
and Taylor, I should say welcome back. Welcome back. Have you a previous uh, previous ntc coverage.

[00:03:05.11] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:03:26.44] spk_3:
Your session is what we accomplished together, building new and inclusive non profit partnerships. So who wants to start by just reminding us that we do not have to do our work alone. We can have, we can have help, who would like to start. Okay, fine. I’m gonna pick Jack, you start

[00:04:42.94] spk_4:
or um, so I think that really we came up with this concept because corporate accountability does a lot of great work partnering with a lot of wonderful organizations that have missions that are similar to theirs. Um, and we found that they were able to accomplish not only what they wanted to accomplish in ways that they didn’t have the capacity or resources to do otherwise, but also reach out to organizations that didn’t, you know, have the resources themselves to really boost their own missions and help in ways that they wanted to be able to help facilitate and grow organizations that they really believed in. So we wanted to kind of spread that message and talk through ways that organizations could partner and do things that would really change the world for the better, um, in reach out to each other and in, um, in ways that they might not expect.

[00:04:49.74] spk_3:
And, and taylor you can even, uh, increase your own exposure. The organizations don’t exposure by promoting the work of others.

[00:05:32.44] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was one of the things that really stood out as we were developing this. And one of the reasons we came to this idea was, you know, in our experience, we found that these partnerships aren’t just beneficial for both organizations, sort of as a, as a one plus one, but actually it was, it was adding even more to our work when we partnered with other groups. So for instance, we did a giving Tuesday campaign with, partnered with a group in flint called flint rising. And we found that even though we were basically fundraising and giving half of the gifts that we brought in to flint rising, we were raising more, even giving away half than we had in previous years without a partnership like

[00:05:43.03] spk_3:
that. You for giving away half than you had when you when you were on your own.

[00:05:53.74] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. So I think it’s sort of a net positive and you know, I think we are doing all we can to reject this idea that there’s sort of a zero sum, right? It’s more of a mindset of spreading the wealth and everybody being able to lift each other

[00:06:19.24] spk_3:
up rising tide, raises all boats or whatever metaphors we want to use. Well, whatever storms can this take that? That’s that’s outstanding example giving Tuesday. What other forms can this take, where you can improve your own outcomes by working with and promoting the work of others?

[00:07:27.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, one other example that we talked about, um, and I think Jack, you had a couple of really good examples from other organizations as well. Um, but we, uh, we also do a lot of work with coalition actions. So that’s sort of more on the on the advocacy and list building side. But this is essentially a tactic where you can start a petition and then invite a whole bunch of other groups to participate with you. Um, and not only is that a way for you and your partners who are working together to drive folks to this petition to grow their email lists, but for us, you know, it’s been, you know, are the organization, I work for corporate accountability. We have some pretty sort of niche, complicated issues. Um, and so this is a way for us not just to sort of like gather a bunch more petition signatures, but also sort of get our analysis and our campaigns and our ideas out there to a bunch more folks by getting other groups to promote petitions that we have developed to their membership as well.

[00:07:43.44] spk_3:
Okay, Cool petition drives Jack. You have, you have examples. I love these. I want, I want folks to realize that there’s a lot of possibilities around partnering and improving your own outcomes.

[00:08:09.94] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, one example that I think worked out really, really well is that, um, an organization that I work with simple virus fund there, a small local organization in the, they work help helping save and protect and restore uh, redwood lands in the santa Cruz Mountains

[00:08:13.76] spk_3:
and say the name of the organization again, just a little slower.

[00:08:17.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Semper environs Fund some

[00:08:20.95] spk_3:
semper environs.

[00:08:32.74] spk_4:
Mhm. Yeah, it’s a latin word that is for redwood trees. Um, it’s very, um, very, very specific. Yeah, exactly. Um,

[00:08:35.71] spk_0:
uh,

[00:09:20.94] spk_4:
so they, um, they partnered at, at the time, in august, there was a big fire in one of their parks, um, wildfire that happened during a time when there were wild fires all over California. And um, it was the very first part that they developed. Um, they partnered with California state parks as well as save the Redwoods League to um, bring together a bunch of donors who were very passionate about that park and wanted to save it and restore it back to its former glory. Um, They were able to raise throughout the entirety of the year, um, A ton more money because of that partnership. Um, they were able to increase their revenue by 152% and their gifts by 98% just through having that partnership with those organizations and spreading the word altogether.

[00:09:43.34] spk_3:
Jack, what do those campaigns look like? Give us the insight is every piece co branded? Does every piece talk about the work of the other and, or, and how the work overlaps? And what does that, what does that look like?

[00:11:01.34] spk_4:
I think, you know, it can be different. And that’s something that, you know, we definitely wanted to talk about when we put this together is that it really depends on how the organizations want to make this work, you have to come together and say, you know, what are we looking for? What do we want to accomplish here and um what do we want to, how do we want to come to the table? You know, do we want everything to be co branded? Like you’re saying, do we want um to just mention one another um in messages or do we want to um just kind of one time mention and then go about, you know, the rest of the campaign as usual. Um So you have to definitely agree upon all of your terms before the partnership even starts. Um So that you know, um you know what your expectations are and then that way no one gets hurt uh in the end so that you’re not not meeting those expectations?

[00:11:04.24] spk_3:
Okay, cool. Is there another example you have?

[00:12:21.34] spk_4:
Uh Yeah, so I think that um Mhm, pull up my notes um with World Animal Protection, which is another organization that I’ve been lucky enough to work with. Um They usually work with sanctuaries in lots of countries around the globe to save abused animals that can no longer live in the wild because they’ve been you know, in captivity um doing lots of terrible jobs or um you know, having lots of um difficult things put upon them. Uh We were able to create a giving Tuesday campaign around specifically raising money for sanctuaries um and the sanctuary campaign, because it um focused on those sanctuaries and on providing animals um direct money for them and for their needs, Brought in 161% increase in gifts and a 230% increase in revenue. Um

[00:12:24.84] spk_3:
And that’s of course that’s after sharing, Right? These numbers are incredible because it’s like over well over 100% increases.

[00:12:51.44] spk_4:
Mhm. Yeah, it’s really, really helpful too. You know, know that know what your audience cares about, know that they are looking for something different or something um that where they can really make a bigger difference and sometimes they are interested in um you know, they’re like, oh if if I can give here then I’m giving to two different organizations that are really, really wonderful and they’re meeting the um the needs of multiple different types of people or causes at the same time. So why wouldn’t I

[00:13:19.54] spk_3:
tell her somebody who was in one of these organizations? What like what detailed advice can you give for folks who are thinking about? It’s kind of a collaboration like maybe even just start with who might you collaborate with?

[00:16:50.84] spk_1:
Sure. Yeah. I think, you know, sometimes there are some pretty some pretty obvious uh places to start, right? So groups that you you know frequently partner with or that you would work with, you know, that either share sort of the kind of work that you do or share a mission and similar with you. But I think for us, one of the biggest things that we’ve actually had success with is finding groups that share our mission and share our work but have very different, different tactics are different strengths. So, you know, corporate accountability, we do a lot of sort of national and international policy based work. Um and we have had some of our best partnerships with really small state or local groups that are really focused on um grassroots or community organizing. Um and I think the reason it works is, you know, we’re able to sort of bring the bigger sort of systemic analysis and the policies and the sort of like the heavy big stuff, and then we’re able to point to these groups to say, you know, this is literally this is what how this impacts individual people’s lives, and this is how they’re going about working on fixing this, this isn’t just like a sort of zoomed out policy discussion, this is like a thing that is about real people. Um so we’ve had some really good success sort of partnering with groups that have, have different, have different approaches and different strengths to us. Um and I think those those can make really, really fruitful partnerships, um just because, you know, you’re you’re sort of complementing one another, I think, you know, you can I’ve we’ve had some really good partnerships with other sort of national policy oriented groups as well, but I do think that’s one place that I think it has been a little bit surprising to me is like actually like finding those groups that have a really different Thing that they do 2.2 is important. And then for us, you know, when we, when we started doing some of this work, one of the biggest pieces that was really important to us was um really being mindful of racial equity and equity overall. So we’re really approaching this as a way to sort of resource the movement. We’ve, you know, we started corporate accountability started Over 40 years ago with the nestle boycott in the late 70s. Um, and so that was a campaign where we were working primarily with organizations in uh, in South America. Um, and working to stop nestle from marketing infant formula in communities that it was really harmful for infant formula to be used and infants were getting sick and dying. Um, so we’ve always had this dynamic where we are a group that’s based in the Global North, in in the US, but we’re primarily, or often working with groups in the Global South and communities of color. So there’s there’s a built in power dynamic there that were always sort of aware of. And I think one of the, one of the things we really strive to do with these partnerships is to seek out, you know, black and uh of colour led organisations and Global South led organizations that we can work with and we can resource because oftentimes we have a much higher access to those resources than these other groups that are doing incredible work that you deserve this as much more more than we do. So that’s another another thing that we’ve really focused on. You know, that’s not centered everybody but

[00:17:12.24] spk_3:
corporate accountability has centered equity. It sounds like in probably across all your work. But and so it just becomes part of your D. N. A. And absolutely you have it in mind as you or it’s an objective as you as you look for these partnerships

[00:17:25.24] spk_1:
ellen-leikind

[00:17:57.14] spk_3:
How about some advice around you know like sticky points? Uh some problem issues, you know you trust your partners of course but things are gonna come up, you know no no agreement can anticipate everything or you know whether it’s a verbal agreement or a written agreement. And how do you how do you navigate some of the tricky parts like maybe somebody put something out that doesn’t quite describe your work correctly or you know things like that or whatever it might be. Oh that was it could be either one I was thinking of taylor because he’s been involved in these, but it could be either one of you, I don’t care if somebody step up this time.

[00:19:41.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m curious if Jack has other examples, but you know, I think, I think for us, um, really the biggest, the biggest thing is like, as Jack mentioned earlier, having agreements and having conversations in sort of, in the beginning, you know, really laying out what’s expected, what roles are going to be for each organization, uh, sort of how you expect things to look, how money is going to get dispersed if you’re doing joint fundraising, you know, sort of, all of those nitty gritty details. Um, and then, you know, it’s really, it’s really just communication, you know, checking in a ton. Um, you know, we frequently will do a whole slew of emails to try and promote some of these fundraising campaigns that are joined. And, you know, we build in a step where we literally just send the copy of the emails over to the partners and have them review them, um, just to make sure we’re being super upfront and saying like, does this sound good to you? Are we describing your work appropriately? Like, you know, is there a better way you would want to say this? Um, and so, you know, that, that I think is key for for us is just, is just that constant communication is really the most important thing. And I think, you know, even before that, just sort of building building deep relationships, um, and and sort of like cementing that trust before you are trying to jump in on something that’s big, like joint fundraising campaign where tens of thousands of dollars could be at stake. Great. Um, so it’s definitely not like a starting point in your relationship. It’s something that you want to, you want to build towards. Okay

[00:19:45.04] spk_3:
Jack, anything you want to, you want to add there about sticking points or you feel like taylor covered?

[00:21:17.34] spk_4:
Yeah, he mostly covered it. I would say, you know, to your point, tony um, about, you know, if you put something, someone put something out there and it doesn’t really meet, um, anything about your organization or what have you. I think, you know, talking about your brand, that’s something we kind of speak our touch on in our session. Um, uh, making sure that they have all of that information, your logos, um, all of that so that everything is laid out so that they’re following that information as well. That’s part of the initial communication that should happen. Um, so that they’re not, you know, using words that you would never use in your communications, things like that. Um, and I think another piece here is that you make sure that not that you’re treading lately, but that you’re working really entirely in partnership, in your in your, uh, coming to it with equity and, um, and real conversation in mind. Um, and knowing that there’s likely no harm meant from your partner because you you you want to not only build that partnership for now, but build it for the future. Um, who knows how beneficial it could be in, um, you know, the future campaigns, um, things that could come up where you could work together on something that could really, um, open yourselves up for some really, really amazing opportunities. So it makes sense to not do something that could cause some of that rift

[00:21:39.74] spk_3:
you all had. Right expanding lists by exchanging swapping is one of you more accustomed more acquainted with that than the other?

[00:21:44.64] spk_1:
Yeah, Probably me,

[00:21:49.64] spk_3:
Jack. Okay. Yeah.

[00:23:20.24] spk_1:
So we do this a ton. Um, and it’s a really, it’s a really great tactic. Um, it is something that we use Action Network, so it’s something that’s built into Action Network as a sort of email tool set and advocacy tools that not to not to bust market them, but they are the ones that have built this tool. Um, and essentially what it allows is when you set up a petition, um, you can invite other groups to also promote that petition. Um, and once you send them sort of a unique link for them to promote the petition with, um, it automatically tracks sort of where activists are coming from, and then automatically shares a proportion of the folks who signed that petition with your partners. Um, so the expectation is, you know, if if I am partnering with another group and they join and they send an email out to their list and get 100 new folks to join to sign that petition, That they would get out of the total pot of folks who take action 100 new folks to add to their list. Um So it’s sort of it’s a great way both to get more signatures than you would stand alone, right? You know, if your group can get x number of petition signatures inviting a couple other groups will get you a whole bunch more. Um but it also it also is a way to sort of for everybody to sort of grow their email lists and speak to folks who like actually care about your topics because they’re signing a petition that is based on your mission and your issues.

[00:23:46.74] spk_3:
Yeah. Cool. And of course it’s disclosed to people who sign right that they’ll they’ll they’ll receive materials from or however you were at this other, you know, the other group or groups. Okay. Any other ways any other ways of doing this besides petition drives?

[00:23:51.44] spk_1:
I mean that’s the sort of the main one I’m curious, Jack if if there

[00:23:55.60] spk_3:
you, have you seen this in other settings

[00:25:22.14] spk_4:
um in terms of um yeah, it’s mostly petitions or pledges, things like that, just mainly because it’s the easiest way to get another um organizations permission. The other way that I’ve seen it. Er Sorry, another um person’s permission to join a list. Another way that I’ve seen it done is when uh organizations will sponsor each other’s emails across um email. So one organization corporate accountability would say sponsor flint risings, email and they would just send flint risings email to their list. Um And have um flint rising whatever content that is um Those folks um people, corporate accountabilities folks just do whatever that action is for flint rising. I’ve also seen some organizations come together on things like quizzes, games, things like that. Um I put together a whole like mhm uh bracket for an organization before that was like these items like which one is the best? And then it ended up you know with a winner and it was like a couple of weeks long. Um And it ended up being really really successful where a bunch of different organizations were like fighting for which thing was the best on like social media and stuff. So

[00:29:18.84] spk_3:
okay collaborations partnerships, ventures, you don’t have to do your work alone. Right? All right, we’ll leave it there. All right. They are taylor leak. Digital director of corporate accountability and Jack Valor, senior account executive at Mall Warwick donor. Digital telephone jack. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. And thanks to all of you for being with 20 martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc The 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Where would you like to be heard? Use outlets, conferences, podcasts, blogs, editorials. That’s all earned media and turn to can help you get it because they’ve got the relationships with the media outlets. What about your own media though? Owned media turn to can help you improve that because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s time for Tony to take two planned giving accelerator. The next class Kicks off on July one. People in the first class that started in january, they already started getting gifts in month three and by month four there were multiple gifts at multiple members of that very first class. So within only three and in some cases four months of a 12 month program, the gift commitments already coming in. If you join me in the July one class, you could have gifts by Halloween, This could happen for you too. Planned giving accelerator. It’s the online membership community that I’ve created. I teach you step by step, how to get your planned giving program started. We have monthly live teachings and ask me anything sessions and a podcast. Just for members. There’s resources like templates and checklists. All the stuff I was about to say all the ship, let’s keep it. It’s the stuff well, you know, I just said it. So all this, all the things you need To get your plan giving program launched in 2021 and like I said, join, join in, July joined the July class. You could have gifts by Halloween. It happened for members of the first class. So Where you get the info for the July one class, it’s all at planned giving accelerator.com. Check it out if you’re not in planned giving, I will get you started and if that applies to you, if you’re not in planned giving, I hope to join me for the July one class. That is tony steak too. Here is partnerships with African American churches. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC, the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C. O. With me now is Oliver Richmond is president at Kingdom Putnam

[00:29:25.84] spk_0:
Oliver. Welcome. Thank you for having me on tony I appreciate

[00:30:07.14] spk_3:
it, my pleasure. It’s a very interesting topic. Uh we’re hopefully going to be joined by others who I will introduce as they come in. Now, Oliver joined on time and I don’t want to cut this segment short so we’re gonna get started. You’re topic, There’s someone right now there’s Aneta. Okay, we’re bringing in Anita lee Aneta welcome. We’re already recording live. So please join the conversation with me now is in Italy also she’s chief digital specialist at anoeta uplifts LLC and I had already introduced Oliver Richmond and your topic is Black Church a different kind of non profit

[00:30:09.54] spk_2:
Yes. So let me clarify just a little bit. It is Anita, it’s pronounced Anita,

[00:30:28.94] spk_3:
Thank you very much Anita. Okay, thank you. Okay, let’s stick with you Anita. Well not right. You know what let’s give it to Oliver because he came he was right on time. So I mean okay. Okay thank you Anita. Oliver. What you know black churches. Um I don’t go to one. What do you want folks like me to know about black churches?

[00:31:03.94] spk_0:
Black churches are the heart and soul of the black community. If you go back and look at history, that was the only institution that blacks own coming out of slavery. And the black church has been the one delivered services, tutoring, mentoring, food, spiritual help over the years. They have just been a pillar and helping keep those communities safe and all the good things came out of the black church in the black community.

[00:32:02.84] spk_3:
All the good things came out of the black church. All right. Yeah. I’ve had lots of guests on through the years. I’ve been doing this podcast over 10 years. And mostly they would they would bring up black churches when when it was uh you know, like a program they were trying to carry out like a couple of cases. It was something medical and uh I don’t remember. It wasn’t research, but it was some nonprofit work. And they had emphasized the importance of working through the churches to get community buy in for the for the program that they were trying to they were trying to carry out in the in the community. Um So I’ve heard about this through the years that the black churches are critical and and the and the pastors can be sort of conduits to the to the community. Am I standing there? Okay.

[00:32:05.94] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:32:07.20] spk_4:
Over the

[00:32:56.14] spk_0:
years, the black pastors and leaders, if you look through civil rights, all different things, they’ve been the ones who have stood up for the community because they don’t have to worry about losing their jobs. Um, so so they stood up for the community and they’re respected as leaders, no matter what size their churches and the black community expects the black pastors to be involved in the community where some churches, the pastor just preached, uh, over the bible, priests teach and then they’re done. But the black church, they’re expected to be involved in the causes if it’s gangs, if it’s feeding health, whatever it might be, they’re the ones that look to, to bring that information deliberate to the people into the community.

[00:32:58.94] spk_3:
And you did, You sounded a little, a little skeptical about the way I said it. You said, well, you said it. Okay. But what, tell me more, what, what, what, what do you want to say to me?

[00:35:54.44] spk_2:
Uh, yeah. Um, I think that you’re absolutely right. Um and when you’ve spoken to many people over the years, yeah, it’s critical um, that black churches are involved, but I think it’s it’s only a small piece, I think that the general world nonprofit community um only see black churches within the lens of whatever program that they’re deciding to do instead of recognizing black church as the literal pinnacle of the black experience. So when you think about, um, our celebrities, our stars, our um, our millionaires and billionaires that that that that made the country looks up to, many of those people have started in the black church. Like if you think about any major musical star in any genre, from, you know, gospel and soul to R and B, even into rap and hip hop, you will find that all of those artists, most of those artists, how to start in the black Church, even if they’re talking about guns and drugs and shooting and sex, they all have uh start in the black church. And I think that that was the reason why I, you know, I intend to allow me to do this because um, from politics and, and from, from health, from business, our major ivy League, historically black colleges and universities are hBc use. Many of them started in the basement of a black church. The obvious one of the more famous ones, Morehouse, um, where dr martin Luther King got his degree and Spelman, which was the female counterpart to Morehouse, was started in the basement of friendship baptist church in Atlanta Georgia. So, and I’m sure you’ll probably have, you know, you can probably hear stories in other cities as well. So I think that that’s what I wanted the nonprofits to see and to understand that were just that, that the black church and the experience of black church is not a place where you can go get your program started and you can hit your demographic. It really is a place where the, the intensity of the culture and the whole meaning the essence of African american experience is based. Mhm.

[00:36:15.33] spk_3:
Thank you. And Anita, you want us to think about partnering with African american churches? That’s the the, I mean, yeah, that’s the whole purpose of the your session. By the way, I have some work going on. You might hear a song in the background. I hope it’s not hope. It’s not too annoying. No

[00:36:15.64] spk_2:
worries.

[00:36:17.13] spk_3:
Can you hear me? You hear me over it? Can you I hear you over it? Okay, good. Okay. Um, yeah, so you want to encourage us to uh non profits to be partnering with the churches.

[00:37:41.63] spk_2:
Right? And not only do we want the nonprofits to partner with churches, We want you, we wanted nonprofits to understand the uniqueness and the idiosyncrasies that that comes with partnering with Black Church, which is reason it was called Black Church a different kind of nonprofit. Yes. It is a non profit in the essence that it’s five oh one C three and you know, things of that nature or it might not even be five oh one C three. Um, it’s structured around providing those social services, um, but it does not necessarily operate as, you know, your typical nonprofit with a board and you know, and in programs and things of that nature. And so, um, in order to have an effective partnership, um, I wanted nonprofits to understand this is the essence of what Black Church is and these are the ways that she provide or create uh, successful institute, sustainable partnerships. While you’re trying to fulfill your mission for your non profit Oliver

[00:37:47.53] spk_3:
can we, can we go to you to acquaint us with some of the, the idiosyncrasies that Anita is referring to.

[00:39:17.82] spk_0:
Yes. One of the things we work with a ton of black churches and white churches, but one of the things that you want to do is visit the church, see what kind of things they’re doing. I mean, you can look at the announcement, say if they got kids doing announcements, they’re talking a lot about you. You know that church probably want to do things with youth. That’s their where their heart is at. So as you, as you meet people try to meet people in their leadership and if you can get a meeting with the pastor, go there, Get a meeting with the pastor. You talk 10%, let him talk 90 and asked him to share his vision in his heart for the community and that out of that conversation, you’re going to see the things that he’s excited about it that he want to do. And your role is when your partner with them engaging them. If you’re doing youth and maybe they’re passionate about prison ministry, you try to connect this to somebody that can help you with prison ministry and you bring a lot of credibility to them. And guess what if you work with you, he’ll connect you to a pastor that has a big, nice youth program. I want to work with you from the community. So you got to hear their heart and listen to them and you might have the greatest thing that you want to do, but it might not be a fit because just like people, churches have capacity for a few things that they can do well. And you got to seek those out when you engage them. Uh, and you have a lot more success when you do that.

[00:40:41.71] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional, They’re affordable and keep you organized. So we’re talking about digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for large companies and comes with the enterprise level pricing. Send in Blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign like step by step, like playing, giving accelerators step by step, try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s aptly named now you thought the baku but loads got obliterated when I didn’t invoke them after Tony’s take too, didn’t you? You were wondering, I’ve got your back, we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for partnerships with african american churches Anita, you want to elaborate on more of the idiosyncrasies folks should be aware of. I

[00:42:13.20] spk_2:
think, uh, no, I think Oliver is very, you know, and the reason why I had him on our panel is because he is the embodiment of the cross sectional of not only with black church and white church and also with black church and, and non profits. And so, um, I have to say like during our session, we did have someone that posed the question of the fact that they are not christian, uh, they’re not black and so they were concerned as to whether or not they would be able to, you know, attend church service. And uh, and I want to bring this out, Oliver because it just makes sense. Um, he said, you don’t have to be a christian to attend church, you can attend church, you don’t have to be a christian to attend church. And so you, you know, and so it’s just important that, um, just like a nonprofit has a mission. Churches have a mission, right? And so even though most of them, the main mission is saving souls and um, and, and, and provide, you know, providing the, spreading the gospel of jesus, that’s the main mission. But to Oliver’s point, you know, different churches have different sort of passion projects, just like the nonprofit has a passion project. So you’re not going to see the environmental non profit doing stuff with prison, right? Because that’s not their mission, There’s is saving the environment, Right? And so, um, it’s that research and that intentional research by visiting that church is where you will learn what’s a good fit for your organization. And then also partnering up

[00:42:54.70] spk_3:
Oliver, it sounds like the pastor is really the key, like sort of the ceo of the church. You have any other advice about getting his or her attention, You know, you said listen, listen 90% and talk 10% before we have twice as many years and only one or two layers in one mouth. But what other advice is, you know, like as you’re just trying to introduce yourself before you, before you, you know, before you, before you try to visit the church, just trying to get that,

[00:43:05.70] spk_0:
how

[00:43:07.05] spk_3:
we’ll

[00:44:07.29] spk_0:
find out who, who some of the key leaders are. You can go to their website, uh, even look at the brochure and find out who some of the key leaders are and talk with them and see if they can give you a warm introduction to the pastor. Another one the key points is, And I made this mistake years ago, I’ve been working with churches 27 years, particularly black churches wherever the pastor points you too go follow up in that direction. Uh, because sometimes you want to just get to the past. Or maybe he might give you a phone conversation and say go talk to tony and you might not tony Know that Tony is his right hand man. He’s going to rely on tony or whether we should engage in his partnership and do this program. So sometimes people try to get to the pastor, but he might have someone else that he wants you to work with and then they’ll share the big idea. He’ll rely on them. So whatever the rescue send you going, that direction followed them.

[00:44:11.49] spk_3:
Anything else Anita you want to add about trying to make that, get that first introduction that, that break that ice.

[00:46:38.58] spk_2:
Well, just to keep in mind, um, uh, that depending on the denomination, which is brings in the intricacies of the fact of, you know, now and, and that’s just protestant, the whole protestant religion totally right. You got all these different denominations and sections and districts or whatever. Um, but that’s on the onus of the nonprofit professional to do their particular research and to understand that um, one to Oliver’s point when they pointed to that person to go ahead and and, and engage, but also know in different situations. The pastor may not necessarily be the like the decision maker, right? They maybe they might not be the one that is the one that may, he may be a part of it, right? But it might be the trustee board. Um, it might be the deacon’s board, it might be, you know, some other institution. It might be the superintendent. That is the one that really has the quote unquote power to engage the church in, in, in partnerships. And so, um, that’s just, you know, an additional thing to kind of consider. And then, of course, you know, and in that vein, as I’m thinking about it, that kind of, you know, put that, that might make the nonprofit professional a little bit more comfortable because it’s almost like talking to a board, right? It’s, it’s, you know, as the other nonprofits, like here’s the board and they’re the one that makes the decisions and some denominations are set up like that. Some are totally not the ending the beginning and the end Alpha and omega comes from the past. So it’s just just an additional step. Um, you know, once you’ve, you know, visit the church and maybe, you know, like I did a little research, checking out the website, maybe attending a service or maybe not attend the service, attend an event. The church is having a volunteer. Um, no one’s gonna turn around and turn away a volunteer, no matter what. Right. That’s, that’s not probably one or one. So, you know, volunteering for something and you, you kind of get a sense of who’s, you know, who’s the kind of the one that’s kind of running the programs and, and, and making the decisions. So yeah,

[00:46:46.68] spk_3:
I needed your work at uplift. Uh, it sounded to me like it was the intersection of black churches and technology.

[00:46:54.58] spk_2:
It is, it is um, it was it’s basically, uh, my new social entrepreneurship one out of the, um, my, my own sort of personal mission around digital inclusion and um, in digital inclusion efforts and the fact that I truly believe that churches um, can be a place of opportunity when we’re talking about closing the digital divide. Now, I’ll be honest with you Tony. I’m not only am I trying to get tech folks and nonprofits to see churches as places of opportunity. I’m trying to work on the churches as well to try to get them to understand that this is a different or new evolution of ministry for them. So that’s kind of kind of my personal mission and cause and ministry, if you will.

[00:48:14.87] spk_3:
So I trying to expand everybody’s circles where they find the intersection between them and and end up doing good work for for all the communities. Yes. All right. We still got some good time together. A good amount of time together. What, what, what else would either of you like? Talk about other questions you got from your session or something else you covered in your session that we haven’t talked about yet, throw it open to

[00:49:41.37] spk_0:
you. I think one of the things tony really helped get engaged is support them. I’ll give you a prime example of a couple of quick examples when, when the virus hit and shut down everything. We partner with a technology group to bring hotspots online, uh, notebooks with urban black churches And got them online so they can get giving online. They didn’t have the technology, they didn’t know what to do, but we’ll never helped 40 of them. So guess what? I can pick up the phone anytime and call those pastors directly and say, hey, let’s look at doing this. I didn’t ask him for anything, didn’t want anything, but if you can help serve them another example, uh, it was a water shortage in Mississippi pastor said Oliver can you help get some water? I said, well let me send you a check and said no, no don’t send me a check because I got to go get the water. I need you to bring over the cases of water. So guess what? I went to Sam’s couldn’t get as much water because only so much in the car and I can push it. But guess what? Now our relationship is deeper because I was able to help a need that he was trying to fulfill to take a truckload of water down. Uh, and then, so now when I call them up with something that we want to do with his church or in the neighborhood, he’ll take that call and listen and more be more aptitude to work with us because we support them in the time of meat.

[00:50:29.36] spk_3:
Hey build trust. Yes, he had, he had a problem and you had a solution that you know, that that builds trust, I’m sure needed your degree. You know, this if you’re going to approach any of this or any other, any relationship, you know, transactional e I, you know, we want to get this out of it. We’re here for six months and then we’re moving on with some other project, then you shouldn’t even bother. I mean, but if you want to, but if you want to build a relationship, not that you have to be working together forever either. But if you’re gonna look at it as a transaction versus opening the door to a relationship, you’re, you’re short changing yourself the church, you’re trying to partner with the program. You’re trying to expand or build. You know, it’s it’s

[00:50:30.31] spk_2:
and the people you’re trying

[00:51:02.96] spk_3:
to serve and the people you hope to help. It’s not a it’s not a one and done. You know, it’s a we’re trying to build a relationship here. We don’t we don’t know the ways we might be able to work together in the future. You know, we got an idea how we could do what we can do now in this next six months or a year. But who knows what the ensuing years could bring. You know, it’s just basic relationship building. The same thing you do with your volunteers, your your donors. You know, you don’t look at them as transactions as a T. M. S. You get something out and then walk away. So, same thing here with any relationship, whether it’s with an individual or uh, an institution, like a black church. All right, that’s right.

[00:54:01.34] spk_2:
So yeah, I agree with you Tony, I agree with you so much tony I think I said that was more into the essence of why I wanted to do this. Um I think um so another reason as to why I presented this to anti china had to do with um an actual project that I did as a digital inclusion fellow um and in connection with the Rainbow push Coalition, and we were trying to establish some digital inclusion um programming at churches here in Atlanta. And it was because um the organization just did not understand each other well that the program itself for the initiative itself really didn’t experience the level of success that it could have. Um because on the church side, uh they weren’t fully educated as to what he was trying to be done. And then on the nonprofit side, they really, um, honestly did not understand the fully understand the idiosyncrasies of black church. Um, and I’ll give you a small example. Um, one of the, one of the criteria for the churches that was in the program, um, was that they needed to fundraise, um, a specific amount of dollars, and then the nonprofit was going to match that fundraisers, and then that was supposed to be, um, not quote unquote given, but sort of giving access to the fellow so that the fellow can use that those funds to build out the program. Well, as I was sitting there as one of the fellows listening to, you know, listening to how this work, I said, there’s a whole time kind of shaking my head. I said, you can’t do that with black shirts, you can’t just tell them to just fundraise for a specific a specific event and not run it through the sort of proper channels where everyone, including the leadership of the church is on board, um in order to in order to make it happen. And so what happened was, is that it kind of fell by the wayside because the church is was like, uh huh, what are you, what are you talking about? Fun. What do you mean? Like in addition to my ties and offerings or something different, something, whatever. And so unfortunately, go

[00:54:03.37] spk_3:
ahead. I need you to wrap up with with your takeaway from that. Okay. We just have a minute left. What’s your takeaway?

[00:54:09.44] spk_2:
So the takeaway is, is it’s just still important to to get that, do that research and and begin to understand one another. And it doesn’t just say, oh, you have my demographic. So let’s just do it and it takes time like you said, to build that relationship troubles.

[00:54:28.84] spk_3:
All right, we’re gonna leave it there. Thank you. Need to leave Chief digital specialist at Anita uplifts LLC and Oliver Richmond, President Kingdom Partners, Anita. Oliver, thank you very much.

[00:54:38.71] spk_2:
Thank you.

[00:54:40.64] spk_0:
Take care now.

[00:56:07.84] spk_3:
Thank you very much. And thank you for being with Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o next week. CRM selection and new websites as our 21 NTC coverage continues. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending Blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Yeah, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty You with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for June 7, 2021: Nonprofit Partnerships & Partnerships With African American Churches

My Guests:

Taylor Leake & Jack Valor: Nonprofit Partnerships

Our 21NTC panel reminds you: You don’t have to do your work alone. You can increase your exposure by promoting the work of other orgs, and even fundraise in partnership with other nonprofits. They’re Taylor Leake with Corporate Accountability and Jack Valor at Mal Warwick Donordigital.

 

 

 

 

Aneta Lee & Oliver Richmond: Partnerships With African American Churches

Now that you’re motivated to partner up, look to Black churches. Aneta Lee and Oliver Richmond help you understand the idiosyncrasies of church culture and how to cultivate a relationship. Aneta is from Aneta Uplifts and Oliver is with Kingdom Partners. This is also from 21NTC.

 

 

 

 

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[00:02:46.34] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. We’re back to regular energy low. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Dyskinesia if you moved me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Non profit partnerships. Our 21 NTC panel reminds you you don’t have to do your work alone. You can increase your exposure by promoting the work of other org’s and even fundraise in partnership with other nonprofits. They’re taylor leak with corporate accountability and Jack Valor at Mall Warwick, donor digital and partnerships with African american churches now that you’re motivated to partner up Look to black churches, Anita lee and Oliver. Richmond help you understand the idiosyncrasies of church culture and how to cultivate a relationship. Anita is from Anita uplifts and Oliver is with Kingdom Partners. This is also from 21 NTC. You see how the show is put together here. It doesn’t just happen. You see this pervasive partnership theme running through which is what makes it pervasive, it’s all, it’s all coordinated. It’s all thought out On Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome a new sponsor, send in blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue kicking off our partnership theme show here is non profit partnerships. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C. O. My guests now are tailor leak and Jack Valor Taylor is Digital director at corporate accountability and Jack is senior account executive at Mall Warwick donor. Digital Tell her Jack, welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:57.24] spk_1:
Thanks very nice to you. Pleasure

[00:02:58.44] spk_3:
and Taylor, I should say welcome back. Welcome back. Have you a previous uh, previous ntc coverage.

[00:03:05.11] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:03:26.44] spk_3:
Your session is what we accomplished together, building new and inclusive non profit partnerships. So who wants to start by just reminding us that we do not have to do our work alone. We can have, we can have help, who would like to start. Okay, fine. I’m gonna pick Jack, you start

[00:04:42.94] spk_4:
or um, so I think that really we came up with this concept because corporate accountability does a lot of great work partnering with a lot of wonderful organizations that have missions that are similar to theirs. Um, and we found that they were able to accomplish not only what they wanted to accomplish in ways that they didn’t have the capacity or resources to do otherwise, but also reach out to organizations that didn’t, you know, have the resources themselves to really boost their own missions and help in ways that they wanted to be able to help facilitate and grow organizations that they really believed in. So we wanted to kind of spread that message and talk through ways that organizations could partner and do things that would really change the world for the better, um, in reach out to each other and in, um, in ways that they might not expect.

[00:04:49.74] spk_3:
And, and taylor you can even, uh, increase your own exposure. The organizations don’t exposure by promoting the work of others.

[00:05:32.44] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was one of the things that really stood out as we were developing this. And one of the reasons we came to this idea was, you know, in our experience, we found that these partnerships aren’t just beneficial for both organizations, sort of as a, as a one plus one, but actually it was, it was adding even more to our work when we partnered with other groups. So for instance, we did a giving Tuesday campaign with, partnered with a group in flint called flint rising. And we found that even though we were basically fundraising and giving half of the gifts that we brought in to flint rising, we were raising more, even giving away half than we had in previous years without a partnership like

[00:05:43.03] spk_3:
that. You for giving away half than you had when you when you were on your own.

[00:05:53.74] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. So I think it’s sort of a net positive and you know, I think we are doing all we can to reject this idea that there’s sort of a zero sum, right? It’s more of a mindset of spreading the wealth and everybody being able to lift each other

[00:06:19.24] spk_3:
up rising tide, raises all boats or whatever metaphors we want to use. Well, whatever storms can this take that? That’s that’s outstanding example giving Tuesday. What other forms can this take, where you can improve your own outcomes by working with and promoting the work of others?

[00:07:27.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, one other example that we talked about, um, and I think Jack, you had a couple of really good examples from other organizations as well. Um, but we, uh, we also do a lot of work with coalition actions. So that’s sort of more on the on the advocacy and list building side. But this is essentially a tactic where you can start a petition and then invite a whole bunch of other groups to participate with you. Um, and not only is that a way for you and your partners who are working together to drive folks to this petition to grow their email lists, but for us, you know, it’s been, you know, are the organization, I work for corporate accountability. We have some pretty sort of niche, complicated issues. Um, and so this is a way for us not just to sort of like gather a bunch more petition signatures, but also sort of get our analysis and our campaigns and our ideas out there to a bunch more folks by getting other groups to promote petitions that we have developed to their membership as well.

[00:07:43.44] spk_3:
Okay, Cool petition drives Jack. You have, you have examples. I love these. I want, I want folks to realize that there’s a lot of possibilities around partnering and improving your own outcomes.

[00:08:09.94] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, one example that I think worked out really, really well is that, um, an organization that I work with simple virus fund there, a small local organization in the, they work help helping save and protect and restore uh, redwood lands in the santa Cruz Mountains

[00:08:13.76] spk_3:
and say the name of the organization again, just a little slower.

[00:08:17.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Semper environs Fund some

[00:08:20.95] spk_3:
semper environs.

[00:08:32.74] spk_4:
Mhm. Yeah, it’s a latin word that is for redwood trees. Um, it’s very, um, very, very specific. Yeah, exactly. Um,

[00:08:35.71] spk_0:
uh,

[00:09:20.94] spk_4:
so they, um, they partnered at, at the time, in august, there was a big fire in one of their parks, um, wildfire that happened during a time when there were wild fires all over California. And um, it was the very first part that they developed. Um, they partnered with California state parks as well as save the Redwoods League to um, bring together a bunch of donors who were very passionate about that park and wanted to save it and restore it back to its former glory. Um, They were able to raise throughout the entirety of the year, um, A ton more money because of that partnership. Um, they were able to increase their revenue by 152% and their gifts by 98% just through having that partnership with those organizations and spreading the word altogether.

[00:09:43.34] spk_3:
Jack, what do those campaigns look like? Give us the insight is every piece co branded? Does every piece talk about the work of the other and, or, and how the work overlaps? And what does that, what does that look like?

[00:11:01.34] spk_4:
I think, you know, it can be different. And that’s something that, you know, we definitely wanted to talk about when we put this together is that it really depends on how the organizations want to make this work, you have to come together and say, you know, what are we looking for? What do we want to accomplish here and um what do we want to, how do we want to come to the table? You know, do we want everything to be co branded? Like you’re saying, do we want um to just mention one another um in messages or do we want to um just kind of one time mention and then go about, you know, the rest of the campaign as usual. Um So you have to definitely agree upon all of your terms before the partnership even starts. Um So that you know, um you know what your expectations are and then that way no one gets hurt uh in the end so that you’re not not meeting those expectations?

[00:11:04.24] spk_3:
Okay, cool. Is there another example you have?

[00:12:21.34] spk_4:
Uh Yeah, so I think that um Mhm, pull up my notes um with World Animal Protection, which is another organization that I’ve been lucky enough to work with. Um They usually work with sanctuaries in lots of countries around the globe to save abused animals that can no longer live in the wild because they’ve been you know, in captivity um doing lots of terrible jobs or um you know, having lots of um difficult things put upon them. Uh We were able to create a giving Tuesday campaign around specifically raising money for sanctuaries um and the sanctuary campaign, because it um focused on those sanctuaries and on providing animals um direct money for them and for their needs, Brought in 161% increase in gifts and a 230% increase in revenue. Um

[00:12:24.84] spk_3:
And that’s of course that’s after sharing, Right? These numbers are incredible because it’s like over well over 100% increases.

[00:12:51.44] spk_4:
Mhm. Yeah, it’s really, really helpful too. You know, know that know what your audience cares about, know that they are looking for something different or something um that where they can really make a bigger difference and sometimes they are interested in um you know, they’re like, oh if if I can give here then I’m giving to two different organizations that are really, really wonderful and they’re meeting the um the needs of multiple different types of people or causes at the same time. So why wouldn’t I

[00:13:19.54] spk_3:
tell her somebody who was in one of these organizations? What like what detailed advice can you give for folks who are thinking about? It’s kind of a collaboration like maybe even just start with who might you collaborate with?

[00:16:50.84] spk_1:
Sure. Yeah. I think, you know, sometimes there are some pretty some pretty obvious uh places to start, right? So groups that you you know frequently partner with or that you would work with, you know, that either share sort of the kind of work that you do or share a mission and similar with you. But I think for us, one of the biggest things that we’ve actually had success with is finding groups that share our mission and share our work but have very different, different tactics are different strengths. So, you know, corporate accountability, we do a lot of sort of national and international policy based work. Um and we have had some of our best partnerships with really small state or local groups that are really focused on um grassroots or community organizing. Um and I think the reason it works is, you know, we’re able to sort of bring the bigger sort of systemic analysis and the policies and the sort of like the heavy big stuff, and then we’re able to point to these groups to say, you know, this is literally this is what how this impacts individual people’s lives, and this is how they’re going about working on fixing this, this isn’t just like a sort of zoomed out policy discussion, this is like a thing that is about real people. Um so we’ve had some really good success sort of partnering with groups that have, have different, have different approaches and different strengths to us. Um and I think those those can make really, really fruitful partnerships, um just because, you know, you’re you’re sort of complementing one another, I think, you know, you can I’ve we’ve had some really good partnerships with other sort of national policy oriented groups as well, but I do think that’s one place that I think it has been a little bit surprising to me is like actually like finding those groups that have a really different Thing that they do 2.2 is important. And then for us, you know, when we, when we started doing some of this work, one of the biggest pieces that was really important to us was um really being mindful of racial equity and equity overall. So we’re really approaching this as a way to sort of resource the movement. We’ve, you know, we started corporate accountability started Over 40 years ago with the nestle boycott in the late 70s. Um, and so that was a campaign where we were working primarily with organizations in uh, in South America. Um, and working to stop nestle from marketing infant formula in communities that it was really harmful for infant formula to be used and infants were getting sick and dying. Um, so we’ve always had this dynamic where we are a group that’s based in the Global North, in in the US, but we’re primarily, or often working with groups in the Global South and communities of color. So there’s there’s a built in power dynamic there that were always sort of aware of. And I think one of the, one of the things we really strive to do with these partnerships is to seek out, you know, black and uh of colour led organisations and Global South led organizations that we can work with and we can resource because oftentimes we have a much higher access to those resources than these other groups that are doing incredible work that you deserve this as much more more than we do. So that’s another another thing that we’ve really focused on. You know, that’s not centered everybody but

[00:17:12.24] spk_3:
corporate accountability has centered equity. It sounds like in probably across all your work. But and so it just becomes part of your D. N. A. And absolutely you have it in mind as you or it’s an objective as you as you look for these partnerships

[00:17:25.24] spk_1:
ellen-leikind

[00:17:57.14] spk_3:
How about some advice around you know like sticky points? Uh some problem issues, you know you trust your partners of course but things are gonna come up, you know no no agreement can anticipate everything or you know whether it’s a verbal agreement or a written agreement. And how do you how do you navigate some of the tricky parts like maybe somebody put something out that doesn’t quite describe your work correctly or you know things like that or whatever it might be. Oh that was it could be either one I was thinking of taylor because he’s been involved in these, but it could be either one of you, I don’t care if somebody step up this time.

[00:19:41.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m curious if Jack has other examples, but you know, I think, I think for us, um, really the biggest, the biggest thing is like, as Jack mentioned earlier, having agreements and having conversations in sort of, in the beginning, you know, really laying out what’s expected, what roles are going to be for each organization, uh, sort of how you expect things to look, how money is going to get dispersed if you’re doing joint fundraising, you know, sort of, all of those nitty gritty details. Um, and then, you know, it’s really, it’s really just communication, you know, checking in a ton. Um, you know, we frequently will do a whole slew of emails to try and promote some of these fundraising campaigns that are joined. And, you know, we build in a step where we literally just send the copy of the emails over to the partners and have them review them, um, just to make sure we’re being super upfront and saying like, does this sound good to you? Are we describing your work appropriately? Like, you know, is there a better way you would want to say this? Um, and so, you know, that, that I think is key for for us is just, is just that constant communication is really the most important thing. And I think, you know, even before that, just sort of building building deep relationships, um, and and sort of like cementing that trust before you are trying to jump in on something that’s big, like joint fundraising campaign where tens of thousands of dollars could be at stake. Great. Um, so it’s definitely not like a starting point in your relationship. It’s something that you want to, you want to build towards. Okay

[00:19:45.04] spk_3:
Jack, anything you want to, you want to add there about sticking points or you feel like taylor covered?

[00:21:17.34] spk_4:
Yeah, he mostly covered it. I would say, you know, to your point, tony um, about, you know, if you put something, someone put something out there and it doesn’t really meet, um, anything about your organization or what have you. I think, you know, talking about your brand, that’s something we kind of speak our touch on in our session. Um, uh, making sure that they have all of that information, your logos, um, all of that so that everything is laid out so that they’re following that information as well. That’s part of the initial communication that should happen. Um, so that they’re not, you know, using words that you would never use in your communications, things like that. Um, and I think another piece here is that you make sure that not that you’re treading lately, but that you’re working really entirely in partnership, in your in your, uh, coming to it with equity and, um, and real conversation in mind. Um, and knowing that there’s likely no harm meant from your partner because you you you want to not only build that partnership for now, but build it for the future. Um, who knows how beneficial it could be in, um, you know, the future campaigns, um, things that could come up where you could work together on something that could really, um, open yourselves up for some really, really amazing opportunities. So it makes sense to not do something that could cause some of that rift

[00:21:39.74] spk_3:
you all had. Right expanding lists by exchanging swapping is one of you more accustomed more acquainted with that than the other?

[00:21:44.64] spk_1:
Yeah, Probably me,

[00:21:49.64] spk_3:
Jack. Okay. Yeah.

[00:23:20.24] spk_1:
So we do this a ton. Um, and it’s a really, it’s a really great tactic. Um, it is something that we use Action Network, so it’s something that’s built into Action Network as a sort of email tool set and advocacy tools that not to not to bust market them, but they are the ones that have built this tool. Um, and essentially what it allows is when you set up a petition, um, you can invite other groups to also promote that petition. Um, and once you send them sort of a unique link for them to promote the petition with, um, it automatically tracks sort of where activists are coming from, and then automatically shares a proportion of the folks who signed that petition with your partners. Um, so the expectation is, you know, if if I am partnering with another group and they join and they send an email out to their list and get 100 new folks to join to sign that petition, That they would get out of the total pot of folks who take action 100 new folks to add to their list. Um So it’s sort of it’s a great way both to get more signatures than you would stand alone, right? You know, if your group can get x number of petition signatures inviting a couple other groups will get you a whole bunch more. Um but it also it also is a way to sort of for everybody to sort of grow their email lists and speak to folks who like actually care about your topics because they’re signing a petition that is based on your mission and your issues.

[00:23:46.74] spk_3:
Yeah. Cool. And of course it’s disclosed to people who sign right that they’ll they’ll they’ll receive materials from or however you were at this other, you know, the other group or groups. Okay. Any other ways any other ways of doing this besides petition drives?

[00:23:51.44] spk_1:
I mean that’s the sort of the main one I’m curious, Jack if if there

[00:23:55.60] spk_3:
you, have you seen this in other settings

[00:25:22.14] spk_4:
um in terms of um yeah, it’s mostly petitions or pledges, things like that, just mainly because it’s the easiest way to get another um organizations permission. The other way that I’ve seen it. Er Sorry, another um person’s permission to join a list. Another way that I’ve seen it done is when uh organizations will sponsor each other’s emails across um email. So one organization corporate accountability would say sponsor flint risings, email and they would just send flint risings email to their list. Um And have um flint rising whatever content that is um Those folks um people, corporate accountabilities folks just do whatever that action is for flint rising. I’ve also seen some organizations come together on things like quizzes, games, things like that. Um I put together a whole like mhm uh bracket for an organization before that was like these items like which one is the best? And then it ended up you know with a winner and it was like a couple of weeks long. Um And it ended up being really really successful where a bunch of different organizations were like fighting for which thing was the best on like social media and stuff. So

[00:29:18.84] spk_3:
okay collaborations partnerships, ventures, you don’t have to do your work alone. Right? All right, we’ll leave it there. All right. They are taylor leak. Digital director of corporate accountability and Jack Valor, senior account executive at Mall Warwick donor. Digital telephone jack. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. And thanks to all of you for being with 20 martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc The 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Where would you like to be heard? Use outlets, conferences, podcasts, blogs, editorials. That’s all earned media and turn to can help you get it because they’ve got the relationships with the media outlets. What about your own media though? Owned media turn to can help you improve that because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s time for Tony to take two planned giving accelerator. The next class Kicks off on July one. People in the first class that started in january, they already started getting gifts in month three and by month four there were multiple gifts at multiple members of that very first class. So within only three and in some cases four months of a 12 month program, the gift commitments already coming in. If you join me in the July one class, you could have gifts by Halloween, This could happen for you too. Planned giving accelerator. It’s the online membership community that I’ve created. I teach you step by step, how to get your planned giving program started. We have monthly live teachings and ask me anything sessions and a podcast. Just for members. There’s resources like templates and checklists. All the stuff I was about to say all the ship, let’s keep it. It’s the stuff well, you know, I just said it. So all this, all the things you need To get your plan giving program launched in 2021 and like I said, join, join in, July joined the July class. You could have gifts by Halloween. It happened for members of the first class. So Where you get the info for the July one class, it’s all at planned giving accelerator.com. Check it out if you’re not in planned giving, I will get you started and if that applies to you, if you’re not in planned giving, I hope to join me for the July one class. That is tony steak too. Here is partnerships with African American churches. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC, the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C. O. With me now is Oliver Richmond is president at Kingdom Putnam

[00:29:25.84] spk_0:
Oliver. Welcome. Thank you for having me on tony I appreciate

[00:30:07.14] spk_3:
it, my pleasure. It’s a very interesting topic. Uh we’re hopefully going to be joined by others who I will introduce as they come in. Now, Oliver joined on time and I don’t want to cut this segment short so we’re gonna get started. You’re topic, There’s someone right now there’s Aneta. Okay, we’re bringing in Anita lee Aneta welcome. We’re already recording live. So please join the conversation with me now is in Italy also she’s chief digital specialist at anoeta uplifts LLC and I had already introduced Oliver Richmond and your topic is Black Church a different kind of non profit

[00:30:09.54] spk_2:
Yes. So let me clarify just a little bit. It is Anita, it’s pronounced Anita,

[00:30:28.94] spk_3:
Thank you very much Anita. Okay, thank you. Okay, let’s stick with you Anita. Well not right. You know what let’s give it to Oliver because he came he was right on time. So I mean okay. Okay thank you Anita. Oliver. What you know black churches. Um I don’t go to one. What do you want folks like me to know about black churches?

[00:31:03.94] spk_0:
Black churches are the heart and soul of the black community. If you go back and look at history, that was the only institution that blacks own coming out of slavery. And the black church has been the one delivered services, tutoring, mentoring, food, spiritual help over the years. They have just been a pillar and helping keep those communities safe and all the good things came out of the black church in the black community.

[00:32:02.84] spk_3:
All the good things came out of the black church. All right. Yeah. I’ve had lots of guests on through the years. I’ve been doing this podcast over 10 years. And mostly they would they would bring up black churches when when it was uh you know, like a program they were trying to carry out like a couple of cases. It was something medical and uh I don’t remember. It wasn’t research, but it was some nonprofit work. And they had emphasized the importance of working through the churches to get community buy in for the for the program that they were trying to they were trying to carry out in the in the community. Um So I’ve heard about this through the years that the black churches are critical and and the and the pastors can be sort of conduits to the to the community. Am I standing there? Okay.

[00:32:05.94] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:32:07.20] spk_4:
Over the

[00:32:56.14] spk_0:
years, the black pastors and leaders, if you look through civil rights, all different things, they’ve been the ones who have stood up for the community because they don’t have to worry about losing their jobs. Um, so so they stood up for the community and they’re respected as leaders, no matter what size their churches and the black community expects the black pastors to be involved in the community where some churches, the pastor just preached, uh, over the bible, priests teach and then they’re done. But the black church, they’re expected to be involved in the causes if it’s gangs, if it’s feeding health, whatever it might be, they’re the ones that look to, to bring that information deliberate to the people into the community.

[00:32:58.94] spk_3:
And you did, You sounded a little, a little skeptical about the way I said it. You said, well, you said it. Okay. But what, tell me more, what, what, what, what do you want to say to me?

[00:35:54.44] spk_2:
Uh, yeah. Um, I think that you’re absolutely right. Um and when you’ve spoken to many people over the years, yeah, it’s critical um, that black churches are involved, but I think it’s it’s only a small piece, I think that the general world nonprofit community um only see black churches within the lens of whatever program that they’re deciding to do instead of recognizing black church as the literal pinnacle of the black experience. So when you think about, um, our celebrities, our stars, our um, our millionaires and billionaires that that that that made the country looks up to, many of those people have started in the black church. Like if you think about any major musical star in any genre, from, you know, gospel and soul to R and B, even into rap and hip hop, you will find that all of those artists, most of those artists, how to start in the black Church, even if they’re talking about guns and drugs and shooting and sex, they all have uh start in the black church. And I think that that was the reason why I, you know, I intend to allow me to do this because um, from politics and, and from, from health, from business, our major ivy League, historically black colleges and universities are hBc use. Many of them started in the basement of a black church. The obvious one of the more famous ones, Morehouse, um, where dr martin Luther King got his degree and Spelman, which was the female counterpart to Morehouse, was started in the basement of friendship baptist church in Atlanta Georgia. So, and I’m sure you’ll probably have, you know, you can probably hear stories in other cities as well. So I think that that’s what I wanted the nonprofits to see and to understand that were just that, that the black church and the experience of black church is not a place where you can go get your program started and you can hit your demographic. It really is a place where the, the intensity of the culture and the whole meaning the essence of African american experience is based. Mhm.

[00:36:15.33] spk_3:
Thank you. And Anita, you want us to think about partnering with African american churches? That’s the the, I mean, yeah, that’s the whole purpose of the your session. By the way, I have some work going on. You might hear a song in the background. I hope it’s not hope. It’s not too annoying. No

[00:36:15.64] spk_2:
worries.

[00:36:17.13] spk_3:
Can you hear me? You hear me over it? Can you I hear you over it? Okay, good. Okay. Um, yeah, so you want to encourage us to uh non profits to be partnering with the churches.

[00:37:41.63] spk_2:
Right? And not only do we want the nonprofits to partner with churches, We want you, we wanted nonprofits to understand the uniqueness and the idiosyncrasies that that comes with partnering with Black Church, which is reason it was called Black Church a different kind of nonprofit. Yes. It is a non profit in the essence that it’s five oh one C three and you know, things of that nature or it might not even be five oh one C three. Um, it’s structured around providing those social services, um, but it does not necessarily operate as, you know, your typical nonprofit with a board and you know, and in programs and things of that nature. And so, um, in order to have an effective partnership, um, I wanted nonprofits to understand this is the essence of what Black Church is and these are the ways that she provide or create uh, successful institute, sustainable partnerships. While you’re trying to fulfill your mission for your non profit Oliver

[00:37:47.53] spk_3:
can we, can we go to you to acquaint us with some of the, the idiosyncrasies that Anita is referring to.

[00:39:17.82] spk_0:
Yes. One of the things we work with a ton of black churches and white churches, but one of the things that you want to do is visit the church, see what kind of things they’re doing. I mean, you can look at the announcement, say if they got kids doing announcements, they’re talking a lot about you. You know that church probably want to do things with youth. That’s their where their heart is at. So as you, as you meet people try to meet people in their leadership and if you can get a meeting with the pastor, go there, Get a meeting with the pastor. You talk 10%, let him talk 90 and asked him to share his vision in his heart for the community and that out of that conversation, you’re going to see the things that he’s excited about it that he want to do. And your role is when your partner with them engaging them. If you’re doing youth and maybe they’re passionate about prison ministry, you try to connect this to somebody that can help you with prison ministry and you bring a lot of credibility to them. And guess what if you work with you, he’ll connect you to a pastor that has a big, nice youth program. I want to work with you from the community. So you got to hear their heart and listen to them and you might have the greatest thing that you want to do, but it might not be a fit because just like people, churches have capacity for a few things that they can do well. And you got to seek those out when you engage them. Uh, and you have a lot more success when you do that.

[00:40:41.71] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional, They’re affordable and keep you organized. So we’re talking about digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for large companies and comes with the enterprise level pricing. Send in Blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign like step by step, like playing, giving accelerators step by step, try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s aptly named now you thought the baku but loads got obliterated when I didn’t invoke them after Tony’s take too, didn’t you? You were wondering, I’ve got your back, we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for partnerships with african american churches Anita, you want to elaborate on more of the idiosyncrasies folks should be aware of. I

[00:42:13.20] spk_2:
think, uh, no, I think Oliver is very, you know, and the reason why I had him on our panel is because he is the embodiment of the cross sectional of not only with black church and white church and also with black church and, and non profits. And so, um, I have to say like during our session, we did have someone that posed the question of the fact that they are not christian, uh, they’re not black and so they were concerned as to whether or not they would be able to, you know, attend church service. And uh, and I want to bring this out, Oliver because it just makes sense. Um, he said, you don’t have to be a christian to attend church, you can attend church, you don’t have to be a christian to attend church. And so you, you know, and so it’s just important that, um, just like a nonprofit has a mission. Churches have a mission, right? And so even though most of them, the main mission is saving souls and um, and, and, and provide, you know, providing the, spreading the gospel of jesus, that’s the main mission. But to Oliver’s point, you know, different churches have different sort of passion projects, just like the nonprofit has a passion project. So you’re not going to see the environmental non profit doing stuff with prison, right? Because that’s not their mission, There’s is saving the environment, Right? And so, um, it’s that research and that intentional research by visiting that church is where you will learn what’s a good fit for your organization. And then also partnering up

[00:42:54.70] spk_3:
Oliver, it sounds like the pastor is really the key, like sort of the ceo of the church. You have any other advice about getting his or her attention, You know, you said listen, listen 90% and talk 10% before we have twice as many years and only one or two layers in one mouth. But what other advice is, you know, like as you’re just trying to introduce yourself before you, before you, you know, before you, before you try to visit the church, just trying to get that,

[00:43:05.70] spk_0:
how

[00:43:07.05] spk_3:
we’ll

[00:44:07.29] spk_0:
find out who, who some of the key leaders are. You can go to their website, uh, even look at the brochure and find out who some of the key leaders are and talk with them and see if they can give you a warm introduction to the pastor. Another one the key points is, And I made this mistake years ago, I’ve been working with churches 27 years, particularly black churches wherever the pastor points you too go follow up in that direction. Uh, because sometimes you want to just get to the past. Or maybe he might give you a phone conversation and say go talk to tony and you might not tony Know that Tony is his right hand man. He’s going to rely on tony or whether we should engage in his partnership and do this program. So sometimes people try to get to the pastor, but he might have someone else that he wants you to work with and then they’ll share the big idea. He’ll rely on them. So whatever the rescue send you going, that direction followed them.

[00:44:11.49] spk_3:
Anything else Anita you want to add about trying to make that, get that first introduction that, that break that ice.

[00:46:38.58] spk_2:
Well, just to keep in mind, um, uh, that depending on the denomination, which is brings in the intricacies of the fact of, you know, now and, and that’s just protestant, the whole protestant religion totally right. You got all these different denominations and sections and districts or whatever. Um, but that’s on the onus of the nonprofit professional to do their particular research and to understand that um, one to Oliver’s point when they pointed to that person to go ahead and and, and engage, but also know in different situations. The pastor may not necessarily be the like the decision maker, right? They maybe they might not be the one that is the one that may, he may be a part of it, right? But it might be the trustee board. Um, it might be the deacon’s board, it might be, you know, some other institution. It might be the superintendent. That is the one that really has the quote unquote power to engage the church in, in, in partnerships. And so, um, that’s just, you know, an additional thing to kind of consider. And then, of course, you know, and in that vein, as I’m thinking about it, that kind of, you know, put that, that might make the nonprofit professional a little bit more comfortable because it’s almost like talking to a board, right? It’s, it’s, you know, as the other nonprofits, like here’s the board and they’re the one that makes the decisions and some denominations are set up like that. Some are totally not the ending the beginning and the end Alpha and omega comes from the past. So it’s just just an additional step. Um, you know, once you’ve, you know, visit the church and maybe, you know, like I did a little research, checking out the website, maybe attending a service or maybe not attend the service, attend an event. The church is having a volunteer. Um, no one’s gonna turn around and turn away a volunteer, no matter what. Right. That’s, that’s not probably one or one. So, you know, volunteering for something and you, you kind of get a sense of who’s, you know, who’s the kind of the one that’s kind of running the programs and, and, and making the decisions. So yeah,

[00:46:46.68] spk_3:
I needed your work at uplift. Uh, it sounded to me like it was the intersection of black churches and technology.

[00:46:54.58] spk_2:
It is, it is um, it was it’s basically, uh, my new social entrepreneurship one out of the, um, my, my own sort of personal mission around digital inclusion and um, in digital inclusion efforts and the fact that I truly believe that churches um, can be a place of opportunity when we’re talking about closing the digital divide. Now, I’ll be honest with you Tony. I’m not only am I trying to get tech folks and nonprofits to see churches as places of opportunity. I’m trying to work on the churches as well to try to get them to understand that this is a different or new evolution of ministry for them. So that’s kind of kind of my personal mission and cause and ministry, if you will.

[00:48:14.87] spk_3:
So I trying to expand everybody’s circles where they find the intersection between them and and end up doing good work for for all the communities. Yes. All right. We still got some good time together. A good amount of time together. What, what, what else would either of you like? Talk about other questions you got from your session or something else you covered in your session that we haven’t talked about yet, throw it open to

[00:49:41.37] spk_0:
you. I think one of the things tony really helped get engaged is support them. I’ll give you a prime example of a couple of quick examples when, when the virus hit and shut down everything. We partner with a technology group to bring hotspots online, uh, notebooks with urban black churches And got them online so they can get giving online. They didn’t have the technology, they didn’t know what to do, but we’ll never helped 40 of them. So guess what? I can pick up the phone anytime and call those pastors directly and say, hey, let’s look at doing this. I didn’t ask him for anything, didn’t want anything, but if you can help serve them another example, uh, it was a water shortage in Mississippi pastor said Oliver can you help get some water? I said, well let me send you a check and said no, no don’t send me a check because I got to go get the water. I need you to bring over the cases of water. So guess what? I went to Sam’s couldn’t get as much water because only so much in the car and I can push it. But guess what? Now our relationship is deeper because I was able to help a need that he was trying to fulfill to take a truckload of water down. Uh, and then, so now when I call them up with something that we want to do with his church or in the neighborhood, he’ll take that call and listen and more be more aptitude to work with us because we support them in the time of meat.

[00:50:29.36] spk_3:
Hey build trust. Yes, he had, he had a problem and you had a solution that you know, that that builds trust, I’m sure needed your degree. You know, this if you’re going to approach any of this or any other, any relationship, you know, transactional e I, you know, we want to get this out of it. We’re here for six months and then we’re moving on with some other project, then you shouldn’t even bother. I mean, but if you want to, but if you want to build a relationship, not that you have to be working together forever either. But if you’re gonna look at it as a transaction versus opening the door to a relationship, you’re, you’re short changing yourself the church, you’re trying to partner with the program. You’re trying to expand or build. You know, it’s it’s

[00:50:30.31] spk_2:
and the people you’re trying

[00:51:02.96] spk_3:
to serve and the people you hope to help. It’s not a it’s not a one and done. You know, it’s a we’re trying to build a relationship here. We don’t we don’t know the ways we might be able to work together in the future. You know, we got an idea how we could do what we can do now in this next six months or a year. But who knows what the ensuing years could bring. You know, it’s just basic relationship building. The same thing you do with your volunteers, your your donors. You know, you don’t look at them as transactions as a T. M. S. You get something out and then walk away. So, same thing here with any relationship, whether it’s with an individual or uh, an institution, like a black church. All right, that’s right.

[00:54:01.34] spk_2:
So yeah, I agree with you Tony, I agree with you so much tony I think I said that was more into the essence of why I wanted to do this. Um I think um so another reason as to why I presented this to anti china had to do with um an actual project that I did as a digital inclusion fellow um and in connection with the Rainbow push Coalition, and we were trying to establish some digital inclusion um programming at churches here in Atlanta. And it was because um the organization just did not understand each other well that the program itself for the initiative itself really didn’t experience the level of success that it could have. Um because on the church side, uh they weren’t fully educated as to what he was trying to be done. And then on the nonprofit side, they really, um, honestly did not understand the fully understand the idiosyncrasies of black church. Um, and I’ll give you a small example. Um, one of the, one of the criteria for the churches that was in the program, um, was that they needed to fundraise, um, a specific amount of dollars, and then the nonprofit was going to match that fundraisers, and then that was supposed to be, um, not quote unquote given, but sort of giving access to the fellow so that the fellow can use that those funds to build out the program. Well, as I was sitting there as one of the fellows listening to, you know, listening to how this work, I said, there’s a whole time kind of shaking my head. I said, you can’t do that with black shirts, you can’t just tell them to just fundraise for a specific a specific event and not run it through the sort of proper channels where everyone, including the leadership of the church is on board, um in order to in order to make it happen. And so what happened was, is that it kind of fell by the wayside because the church is was like, uh huh, what are you, what are you talking about? Fun. What do you mean? Like in addition to my ties and offerings or something different, something, whatever. And so unfortunately, go

[00:54:03.37] spk_3:
ahead. I need you to wrap up with with your takeaway from that. Okay. We just have a minute left. What’s your takeaway?

[00:54:09.44] spk_2:
So the takeaway is, is it’s just still important to to get that, do that research and and begin to understand one another. And it doesn’t just say, oh, you have my demographic. So let’s just do it and it takes time like you said, to build that relationship troubles.

[00:54:28.84] spk_3:
All right, we’re gonna leave it there. Thank you. Need to leave Chief digital specialist at Anita uplifts LLC and Oliver Richmond, President Kingdom Partners, Anita. Oliver, thank you very much.

[00:54:38.71] spk_2:
Thank you.

[00:54:40.64] spk_0:
Take care now.

[00:56:07.84] spk_3:
Thank you very much. And thank you for being with Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o next week. CRM selection and new websites as our 21 NTC coverage continues. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending Blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Yeah, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty You with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 31, 2021: BFD: Board Financials Dilemma

My Guests:

Andy Robinson & Nancy Wasserman: BFD: Board Financials Dilemma

What do you do for board members who can’t read your balance sheet? The authors of “The Board Member’s Easier Than You Think Guide To Nonprofit Finances” can answer that. Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman explain why understanding finances is critical so board members preserve your good work and protect themselves. Do their eyes glaze over when the numbers come out? We’ll help your board achieve financial literacy.

This originally aired on March 2, 2012 as show #81. This is show #540. Take a trip back in time with me. Of course, in 2021, your board members still need to understand your financials.

 

 

 

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:11.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and it’s March 2nd 2012.

[00:00:32.74] spk_3:
Who is that low energy uninformed imposter and that music. It’s May 31, This week’s show maybe from the deep archive, but that doesn’t mean we bring back a

[00:00:36.73] spk_0:
Host from six ft under.

[00:00:49.24] spk_5:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:02:24.44] spk_3:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of Takayasu says arthritis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show B. F. D. Board financials dilemma. What do you do for board members who can’t read your balance sheet? The authors of the board members easier than you think. Guide to nonprofit finances can answer that. Andy Robinson and nancy Wasserman explain why understanding finances is critical. So board members preserve your good work and protect themselves. Do their eyes glaze over when the numbers come out, we’ll help your board achieve financial literacy. Yes. This originally aired on March two, That was show # 81. This is show # 540. So take a trip back with me in time. Of course, In 2021, your board members still need to understand your financials, Antonis take two planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is B F D Board Financials Dilemma.

[00:03:08.34] spk_0:
Andy Robinson provides training and consulting for nonprofits in fundraising, board development marketing and earned income. He specializes in the needs of groups working for human rights, Social justice, environmental conservation, historic preservation and Community development. Nancy Wasserman has over 25 years of experience in community finance and social enterprise development. Her particular skill is working with clients on projects that must satisfy both financial and social or community goals. They worked together to co author the book, The board members easier than you think. Guide to Fund to nonprofit finances, published by Emerson in church. And I’m very glad that their collaboration brings them both to the show. Andy nancy. Welcome. Thank you.

[00:03:17.16] spk_2:
Thank you. tony

[00:03:18.37] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you both Andy. Pleasure to have you back

[00:03:22.21] spk_2:
to talk

[00:03:22.98] spk_0:
with you again. Thank you Nancy. Why is this important for board members to care about the financial condition of a charity?

[00:03:45.04] spk_1:
Because that’s really what your charges as a board member, you have the responsibility to make sure the organization is achieving its mission, and the way the best way to do that is to make sure it has the resources it needs to do it. Um And the financial statements and the finance, nonprofit finances is how you know, um pretty quickly what’s going on, especially if you’ve you’ve got that information. You also have some responsibilities to the community um to deliver non profit um uh that does achieve its mission and does it in a responsible and fiduciary fiduciary appropriate way.

[00:04:15.65] spk_0:
So board members are have a fiduciary duty to the charity, right?

[00:04:20.82] spk_1:
Absolutely to the charity and to the public at large.

[00:04:25.06] spk_0:
So why do you say the public at large?

[00:05:01.24] spk_1:
Why? Because the the uh in the U. S. The Internal Revenue Service typically gives charities a uh nonprofit designation which allows them to receive contributions and issue um tax deductible receipts. And because the US is for going that tax um on those on those dollars and giving the public a public benefit, um the IRS exercises oversight of non profit charities and make sure that they really are, um, delivering on their charitable

[00:05:03.78] spk_0:
purpose. So, there is some public money in here. It’s foregone foregone tax revenue

[00:05:10.61] spk_1:
at a bare minimum. Often there’s also, uh, direct public money from government grants or government contracts.

[00:05:19.64] spk_0:
And how about, um, financial problems that can occur within the, within the, um, within the charity? Like, um, you bring out an example in your book of, uh, people not getting their salaries paid, things like that,

[00:05:44.34] spk_1:
you know, you there is that, that oversight potential here, you’re, you are running a small business and, um, you want to make sure that your employees are well cared for, that you’re achieving your mission in, in the world at large. Um, sometimes in, in charities will see folks um, you know, giving up salary, um, and, or, um, deferring payment um, out of the goal of achieving the mission of the organization in the long term, um, that seriously hurts the organization because um, people aren’t really watching what’s happening with the money. Where is it coming in? Where is it going out?

[00:06:14.34] spk_0:
And Andy? Um, isn’t there potential personal liability for board members? When when there are problems like this, like nancy’s describing?

[00:06:21.51] spk_2:
Well, let me do the disclaimer here, which is that neither nancy nor I or attorneys and we can’t give people legal advice.

[00:06:34.24] spk_0:
Okay, Well, there’s no, yeah, I know we haven’t, nobody’s giving you a, I don’t know. The listeners have not given you a retainer fee, so not yet. No.

[00:06:54.34] spk_2:
Okay. I will say this. Um, if there is non payment of payroll taxes, for example, if a sensation goes into debt doesn’t pay the I. R. S. Or state taxing agency’s board members are individually liable for that. Most most expenses. Board members are protected from being personally liable on but there are some exceptions. So I don’t know that that’s what drives this conversation. Board members are simply looking at the balance sheet as a way of making sure that they’re not personally liable. That’s one level on this conversation but there’s a whole lot more levels having to do with the stuff that nancy was talking about. Are we being efficient meeting our mission? Are we tracking our work so that we know we’re being effective and that’s really what financial management is about.

[00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Indeed. Okay. There’s certainly a whole spectrum of reasons why board members should care. I just wanted to bring out the last one which is, there is the potential of, of personal liability. Um, let’s see. Um, we have just about a minute before a break and I’m hoping nancy, why don’t you introduce the idea of the financial dashboard and then we’ll talk a lot more about it right after this break.

[00:08:27.44] spk_1:
Sure. The financial dashboard is something we introduced that, that really gives you a one page sense of how the organization doing. What I’ve found happens with a lot of Nonprofits is that they, um, they give their boards just reams of paper and um, all of a sudden you get the budget and the performance and the balance sheet and there’s 15 pages of financial statements and most board members, even ones who do know how to read financials don’t plow their way through it. And so the dashboard is essentially a one page um, opportunity to get a sense of um, how are you operating financially? Are you being efficient and um, are you having an impact?

[00:08:36.84] spk_0:
Andy I want to throw a question to you quickly. We got a question on twitter from Mazarin. What if an executive director was found stealing one of the things nancy? And I were talking about uh, kind of fraud issues earlier. Um, would you give them a second chance?

[00:09:12.94] spk_2:
Oh boy. Um, well, I’ll be curious to hear nancy’s answer to this. My initial response No, followed by. It depends. And um, I actually was on the board of an organization where we found the opposite problem, which was the board Executive director was pouring money into the organization. He emptied out his retirement account, but he wasn’t telling anybody he did this because the grants weren’t coming through and he was too embarrassed.

[00:09:24.35] spk_0:
So that’s a, that’s a, that’s a problem of being over generous though,

[00:09:28.57] spk_2:
it was paying for himself. We ended up firing the guy and the reason was he wasn’t disclosing to the board what the board needed to do its job. And I would say the issue in that case isn’t so much as misdirection lying. So I am obviously theft is a bad thing, but the board needs full disclosure from the executive director to be able to do their job well. And that’s really where I would go on that.

[00:09:57.14] spk_0:
And how about you nancy? Uh Andy was curious to hear your answer and

[00:10:35.14] spk_1:
I know I would say um again like Andy, it depends um probably depending on the amount of severity and this situation. Um You know, if if the executive director was borrowing $20 from the petty cash um when they forgot to bring um their wallet to work one day. Um clearly that’s not, not egregious enough to to fire somebody. But if uh they’re helping themselves to the uh to the checking account and redirecting grants into their own bank account probably caused fire them

[00:10:41.92] spk_0:
even if they pay it back. Right. That really, even if they pay back with interest, that really doesn’t

[00:11:01.04] spk_1:
matter, does it? I mean, the thing about nonprofits is, you know, they’re not your own private fiefdom or your own private business, there a community, um, engagement where the reason, you know, you have a board of directors that, um, are the final legal responsibility for the organization. Um, so you really shouldn’t be operating it like your own private business.

[00:11:34.14] spk_0:
Let’s talk a little about the dashboard now nancy, the financial dashboard we introduced earlier. Um, it’s a one pager, which I think will be a relief to people is that they’re not getting a sheath of financial, uh, forms and, and, and balance sheets. But what, what, what do you think, what are key parts that should be in this financial dashboard? That to sort of streamline the overview for for board members?

[00:13:19.34] spk_1:
Um I would say that that there’s really three parts to it. There’s a financial part where you’re looking at, you know, sort of what’s our total budget? Um You know, every board member of every organization should be able to very quickly say whether the organization is a $300,000 a year organization or $5 million a year organization? That’s sort of a basic um sense of scale. Um Are we making money or not? Um Do we have net income? Um uh Do we have cash on hand? Those kinds of questions? Um Do we uh do we have a network or we, you know, if everything had to be liquidated today? Um would there be any any money left over or any value left over? Um, that that was tangible value, not just, uh, goodwill. Um, we also want to be looking at at how efficient the organization is and efficiency changes depending on what the organization does. It’s, it’s really a sense of being able to measure you against yourself or against industry standards. Um, and it’s, you know, the, the level of what it costs to deliver, um, services, for example, to severely challenged populations versus what it takes to deliver services to, um, highly educated people in, uh, an urban area where they’re all easily able to get to something. Um, the cost levels are gonna be different. And, and we’re not saying that they should be the same, but to know, um, what it costs for you to serve your clients, um, what it costs to have volunteers, um, and then the impact. And I don’t know, Andy if you want to talk a little bit about that, uh,

[00:14:00.04] spk_2:
how you measure whether you’re meeting your mission or not. And there are often new miracle measures that you can think about. You know, if you’re a land trust, how many acres are you preserving if you do mentoring with Children? How many adult Children matches do you have? I sometimes this is long term tracking, which is hard for a grassroots organizations to do. But in most fields there are ways of measuring your impact in terms of the number of clients you’re serving or the number of audience members who are involved. And hopefully there’s some measures that you can come up with that act. The quality of your work as well. Okay, So people here is, we could get this all on one page. You would have data from two years ago. You’d have data from last year, you’d have data from the current year. You could lay them out and see what the trends are. All

[00:14:22.34] spk_0:
right. That’s the financial dashboard. I love how you guys have this little dance worked out where nancy talks about the financial and efficiency parts, but then she throws it over to a co author, uh Andy for impact and you have it all worked out sort of sort of taking the show over. But it’s ok. It’s in a good way. Um which which leads me to question. All right. So I have to ask when two of when you co author a book, how do you decide whose name comes first? Did you just do alphabetical order or did you flip a coin or uh See I’m too narcissistic to co author with anybody, but but how did you guys work that out? How did you decide

[00:14:47.34] spk_1:
that? Andy Andy’s alphabetically. First on first names and last names. And um, the honest truth is is he did a lot of the writing work, um, where as I did help him with content. So it was very easy for me to go first.

[00:14:58.48] spk_0:
All right. So if I had come in, you wouldn’t have looked only at martignetti you would have also looked at Tony and then I’d have fallen maybe to the bottom, uh, which is probably where I would have had much to contribute to this. So you’re wise not to take me even though I pitched you

[00:15:13.78] spk_2:
otherwise, your name is well known in the community. We might have put your,

[00:15:18.15] spk_0:
uh, your publisher would never have approved that. Um, one of the questions

[00:15:23.80] spk_3:
that we asked before the

[00:15:46.94] spk_0:
show that relates to what we’re talking about now is, um, do you believe all your board members have at least a general understanding of your financial position and 70% said yes, 30% said no. So that’s pretty good, 70%. But the 30% they’re not really very confident a general and that was just a general understanding. Um, Okay. So the, uh, that’s the dashboard. Um, Andy should these things be devoted only to the, the authority of a, of a finance committee?

[00:16:19.64] spk_2:
No, I mean, I think a really good use of the finance committee is the oil stuff down. The rest of the board can understand it provides support to the rest of the board, serve as mentors and back up for the people on staff who were doing this. This book is not about how staff members need to do financial management more effectively. But the reality is a lot of people who are executive directors or even finance directors need help and one of the goals of Finance Committee is to give them that help when they need it. So a way to think about this is so excuse me, if the board is operating at a high altitude and the staff is down on the ground, flashing through the weed, the finance committee is sort of in the middle there providing a bridge between those two groups of people and

[00:16:51.53] spk_0:
so that means that financial dashboard is for the whole board to review. Right?

[00:16:55.99] spk_2:
Yes. How absolutely

[00:17:10.44] spk_0:
was that? A heck yes. Is that you can say hell yes. Okay, Yes. Okay. We have another question on from twitter, um, reminding listeners, you can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non profit radio board members need to look at the impact of the organization and I guess this is for you, since you talked about impact. How do you measure if you’re meeting your mission or not? I guess she’s looking for a little more detail.

[00:17:22.20] spk_2:
Okay. Well

[00:17:24.42] spk_0:
obviously depends what your mission

[00:18:14.04] spk_2:
is. There are some standard benchmarks for how you’re doing. If you work with substance abuse, there are networks that do that, that can talk about ways of tracking your impact. For example, how many people come through a program get clean and stay clean if you are a food bank and you’re delivering food to the community. There’s a number of metrics there that come out of America. America’s harvest. I forget the name of the national network, but they’ll tell you how much money you should be spending more or less based on the population that you’re serving and how much he pounds of food you can put out into the community. Pretty much every nonprofit upset has some metrics that are relevant. And the trick is to learn the ones that are relevant type of organizations who, and then try and adapt them to your particular needs.

[00:18:18.52] spk_0:
And that would be important for the executive director to be recognizing certainly. And then right. And then conveying that to the board.

[00:18:25.04] spk_2:
Yes. And in some cases, depending on the size of the organization, there is some board work to help find those numbers. I mean, I work a lot with really small organizations who has, his staff are overwhelmed and would be great to say to a finance committee on a volunteer basis. I’m trying to figure out what the relevant metrics are for part type of organization who would be willing to do some research and bring that back to us aboard. But in a larger organization. Yeah, that’s going to fall the staff.

[00:19:01.64] spk_0:
One of the other questions we asked pre show, does your board have a committee devoted to financial issues? About 80% said yes and the remainder roughly 20% said No. Um, Nancy, does there, does there have to be a finance committee?

[00:19:48.74] spk_1:
Um, there does not have to be a finance committee. I think it really depends on the size of the organization. Um, the level of support that the director might need. You know, how complex the organization is and uh, also how savvy uh, the board is. If most of the board understands financials and feels quite comfortable with it in a small organization, um, you could get away without a finance committee. I’d say you want one in any organization that’s about to undertake any kind of major financial growth or change or, um, uh, new initiative um, in a larger organization. Um, it just is a great way to assist, um, either the finance manager or the executive director and developing budgets and exercising oversight because things don’t happen is exactly as people plan them to

[00:20:17.64] spk_0:
with me today are Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman co authors of the board members easier than you think guide to nonprofit finances. Um, let’s, let’s talk some about diversifying income sources uh, nancy, you make a point of having that in a couple of chapters of the book. Um why is that important first?

[00:20:30.64] spk_1:
You never want to be totally reliant on just one funder. Um You don’t want to be in a situation where um, if that one funder suddenly says, we don’t like what you’re doing, um that you’re suddenly scrambling and having to find uh, other ways to support your activities and your programs and what you do for the, for folks in the community.

[00:21:01.74] spk_0:
I think we’ve seen a lot of that in, in our recession, uh, agencies that rely exclusively or too heavily on, say, government fees for services or maybe even government agency grants or, and, or foundation grants, uh, those of all sources that have been cut

[00:21:44.34] spk_1:
back. Indeed, that’s true. And that’s part of what, um, it’s both diversifying types of financial support, but also, um, the number of supporters within each type, so you’re not totally reliant on just one foundation or one charitable donor, um, and, uh, and that you have that diversity of donors and foundations and government and, uh, your own revenues, If there’s a way for you to do that.

[00:22:06.74] spk_0:
We have a comment again from twitter. Um, just gonna point out to, uh, the person who wrote that, john that we did talk earlier about individual personal liability for non profits. You may have missed that part of the show, but you can always catch it on the archive on ITunes and our itunes pages. non profit radio dot net. Um Then

[00:22:08.54] spk_3:
what are

[00:22:09.81] spk_0:
Andy some of the sources of income that a nonprofit might look to that they’re not currently exploiting.

[00:23:09.44] spk_2:
There’s three big buckets here. tony The first book, It is private giving. Private giving is foundations, corporations, individuals and of course people leave behind when they pass away the big category there as individuals and within private giving about 80% of the money. Year after year comes from people and most of the groups that I work with don’t invest enough time and energy raising money from individual donors. So that’s the first category. Second category is public funding, that’s government funding from earl state, local, regional, municipal, all the government levels. And as you already indicated, this is a shrinking resource right now. And the groups that I think are getting hammered the worst during the recession or the that are relying on government. The third bucket is earned income, which is non profits arching for the services they provide are in some cases selling goods community and of the three, that’s the biggest of all this is sort of the surprise for people is that earned income is about the same amount as private and public funding put together when you look at all the nonprofit across the country.

[00:23:24.14] spk_0:
That’s interesting. Yeah. You don’t generally see that in in fundraising reports like giving us a earned income is not part of their

[00:23:29.40] spk_2:
private philanthropy. They’re very clear the numbers a little skewed because if you’re a private college and you’re charging tuition that shows up as earned income if you’re a private hospital and you’re charging a nonprofit hospital, you’re charging for medical services that shows up as earned income. So those numbers really sort of skew the data. But I work with a number of organizations where I’m always pushing them to say, is there something you do that you can package up and sell you have some skill that people would buy from you?

[00:23:59.24] spk_0:
It’s time for a break.

[00:24:57.64] spk_3:
Turn to communications, where would you like to be heard? News outlets, conferences, podcasts, blogs, that’s all earned media and turn to, can help you get it. They’ve got the relationships. What about your media that’s owned media turn to, can help you improve that as well because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony Take two planned giving accelerator is the online membership community that I have created to teach you how to launch your planned giving program. I’ll teach you step by step through trainings, live trainings, resources, podcasts, Ask me anything sessions. All of those are each month and we will get your plan giving

[00:25:00.08] spk_0:
program launched

[00:26:01.64] spk_3:
members of the first class, the one that started in january. Some of them already had gifts by three months in by March, so that three months into a 12-month class gift commitments already coming. So that can happen for you to you can be getting gift commitments in the first three months. The next class starts July one. I have priced this very reasonably, Especially when you consider, well, first of all, it’s just reasonable. But then when you consider that the average charitable bequest is $35,000. Take a look, it’s all at planned giving accelerator dot com And that is Tony’s take two. Yeah, we have boo koo but loads more time for B. F. D. Board financials dilemma. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:26:05.74] spk_0:
Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman with me. We’re talking about BFG board financial dilemma. Andy earned income. What can a charity possibly do? What you should be looking at to try to make some money off their activities their work?

[00:26:24.94] spk_2:
Well, the question I always ask groups that are wondering about this is what do you have, what do you do or what do you know somebody else ought to have or do or no most non profit during the service business. We deliver services. Sometimes we have expertise in that area and you know I mean there’s a structured brainstorm that people can do around this. A lot of what we do in the nonprofit world is pivot away and the really entrepreneurial organizations look at what they’re giving away and they say paying market for this and you know we can we can spend the rest of the show talking about this. I don’t know if you want to, but there’s a lot of opportunities there and I see many, many organizations could be more self sufficient financially if they got at figuring out what they know and how to package it up.

[00:27:18.01] spk_0:
Is there an example you can share with us a charity that didn’t realize what they had and and then ended up being able to exploit it and make some money from it?

[00:28:14.04] spk_2:
Well, I’m an author of a book on this subject called selling social change and what’s my favorite example of this? Um, you know, I’m for a group for years in Tucson Arizona called Native Search. Their seed banks on native american crops and you know what they do is protect beats from going extinct by planting them and growing them and distributing them and probably 30% of their of their income. It’s details, their seed bank and they sell it. What they recently started doing, which was fascinating is they opened something they called the school and these are people who want to learn about how to protect seeds, grow them, pass them on to the next generation’s really about biological and genetic. Pay money and they come to Arizona for a week and they get trained and everything you need to know to run your own seed bank. And it’s an organization that was sitting on this for probably 30 years, only recently realized that people would pay for that knowledge in a classroom setting. They

[00:28:29.49] spk_0:
have been doing that all for

[00:28:30.41] spk_2:
free. They hadn’t been training other people, they’ve been taking care of the seeds, but they hadn’t been teaching. I see, okay. And they realized there are a whole renaissance of local agriculture in our country right now and they thought we could tap into this. There’s a market here for people who want to learn how to do this. And so they started doing this and they’re doing this four or five times a year and it sells out and they’re starting to move it around to other parts of the country. So that’s one example.

[00:28:54.90] spk_0:
That’s an example of knowledge. They had a knowledge and a skill that was very marketable.

[00:29:12.54] spk_2:
That’s right. And until you have what you need for better worse is you need someone in the organization who has an entrepreneurial jean who can look around and say, you know what, somebody’s going to want to buy this. And not every nonprofit is blessed with people who think that way. And I think part of what nancy and I are trying to do in our professionalized is to get more of that thinking out into the nonprofit community way

[00:30:07.24] spk_0:
and the related to uh diversifying income. I I had a comment from linked in this, uh, woman had just had a board meeting this earlier this week regarding the need for transparency and distribution of responsibility. When it comes to the finances, bookkeeping and reporting function of their historic nonprofit theater, they’ve been doing their thing. Uh, they’ve been doing things their way a long time. And one big problem is that they have a banker on the board and he doesn’t see the problems. Um, uh, so it sounds like, and and then she says, I was able to get the check writing privileges moved to another person. This is sort of segue into a conflict of interest conversation, but sounds like maybe he was the only one writing checks. Um, I secured a nice grant from a foundation and they want a financial audit. I’m moving for a review. However fear we won’t get any more money once it’s known how ignorant the board is about accountability uh nancy. Uh And he’s laughing nancy. Let’s bring you back. What would you what would you say there?

[00:31:44.94] spk_1:
Well you know how are we defining accountability here? Is there a lack of what a financial audit might uncover? Um Is impropriety? But it sounds like that’s not the case. Um More likely it’s going to um It’s not the financial audit per se but the form 9 90 that you file with the I. R. S. Which ask you now to tell us, does does the boards look at financials um How does is the board of informed, has the board seen an audit? Um uh Did they review it and approve? Um It’s really um you know there there’s sort of two sets of questions. The very pragmatic, did did you get an audit? Did you review it? Did you look at it? Um And then the more important question in my mind, which I think is the question we’re trying to answer with the whole book, which is, does the board really understand what all these numbers are telling them? And ideally with with a financial audit and accountant has come in and um, spoken directly with the board of directors and walked through each and every page of it and talked about why the financials are the way they are and what they mean. Um And I think both Andy and I have seen numbers of organizations where um there’s a lot of people sitting around the table and they leave it to the banker, um or the investment professional to, you know, they they know about numbers and they handle it and it’s really something that everybody needs to know how to do. Um, if only to make sure that the mission of the organization is uh, fully addressed by the board and the organization.

[00:32:28.44] spk_0:
This also relates to the conversation about diversifying income. I mean, here this woman, uh, I believe she’s a fundraiser, there, a volunteer fundraiser and uh, trying to diversify income source, getting a grant but fearful that the grant may not be renewed because there isn’t transparency and accountability that the, the the grant source will probably be seeking.

[00:32:45.74] spk_2:
And this is another point that was raised, sort of came out of sideways. Is this question about separation of duties, which is, you know, in a healthy organization, people break up that work. One person opens the envelope and somebody else writes the checks and somebody else approves them and somebody else gets the bank statement and balances the checkbook. And the idea here is that you’re trying to avoid mischief and fraud and if somebody says, oh I’ll take care of all of these things, maybe they have good intentions and they’re going to be perfectly honest about it. But you really need to break that into separate pieces so people can have oversight over each other.

[00:33:15.64] spk_0:
Let’s segue into the conflict of interest, um, Andy defined for us. What a conflict of interest is here. It’s so often,

[00:33:58.74] spk_2:
Well, my sense of it, at least in terms of the context we’re having here, is that if you serve on a nonprofit board, your job is to put the needs of the organization above your own personal needs. And where this plays out sometimes is people who try and receive a benefit from serving on a board. That the personal benefit that has nothing to do with advancing the mission of the organization. Where this gets tricky is that in a lot of voluntary organizations, there are inherent conflicts of interest. But if you goes to a private school and you’re on the board, your job is to advocate for policies that are going to benefit the Children in the school, and in some case that means they’re going to benefit your kid individually and sort of sorting those things out can be challenging. But the bottom line is the decisions you make have to put the needs of the organization in front of your own personal need

[00:34:19.83] spk_0:
nancy. How can we try to avoid conflicts of

[00:35:47.04] spk_1:
interest? One of the best ways is to have a written conflict of interest policy where you’ve already addressed some of the situations that are likely to happen before they happen, um, where you sit there and say, you know, define what it is that is seen as either a real conflict of interest or perceived conflict of interest, which might be a case where um, somebody was, for example, can somebody bid somebody who serves on the board of directors bid on a project while they’re still on the board of directors or not? Or do they have to resign before they even submit a bid? Or do they only resign if they’re awarded the bid, or do they have to resign? Or can they simply step out of the room for the discussion? Um Those are the kinds of questions that got kind of uh can get kind of challenging, um, particularly when any member of the board stands to benefit financially, um, from any decision of the board. Um That’s uh an outright in my mind and outright conflict of interest. Um, and, um, in most boards, you want to make sure that person doesn’t participate. And it’s, it’s always easier to have that discussion, um, when there isn’t a hot potato sitting in the room, that’s, um, somebody’s thinking that they have every right to be part of the discussion. Um, and you have to therefore bring up both the fact that somebody in the room is feeling uncomfortable that this person is present. Um, and, um, it gets a little bit more tense in those sorts of situations. Prevention is having a written policy that folks have already talked through and everybody feels responsible for making sure it’s enforced.

[00:36:11.93] spk_0:
So prevention ahead of time much better than dealing with it when it’s a, a crisis or a potential crisis.

[00:36:13.83] spk_1:
Right? And, you know, it also, um, is the transparency issue you want to make sure that your presentation to the community at large is um, is as an accountable organization, um, that that gives everybody um equal opportunity to benefit from um, the organization’s purchases.

[00:36:34.49] spk_0:
Is this the kind of policy that a board member should sign and review every year or something

[00:37:00.13] spk_1:
like that? It’s not a bad idea. Oh, you know, it depends on the nature of the organization. I you know, I’ve worked with a community loan fund and that’s absolutely required that you disclose um your conflicts of interest each and every year and that you review the conflict of interest policy every year. Um The other thing that’s incredibly important is disclosed, disclosed, disclosed.

[00:37:05.21] spk_0:
We have just a minute before a break and anything you want to add to conflict of interest discussion.

[00:37:11.17] spk_2:
I think the main thing is that if you see it, you have to name it after. If your board member and you smell something like this, you have to have the courage to bring it up. And as nancy said, it’s much easier to do this if there is an existing policy in place first,

[00:37:23.56] spk_0:
if somebody sees something like this Andy again, just a few seconds before a break, who should they bring it up to you? I’m a board member. Who do I talk to?

[00:37:39.83] spk_2:
Probably go to the chair first and say, I think there’s something fishy here, let’s talk about it and I would start there and then presumably the board, the chair will bring it to the full board. Mhm. Mhm

[00:37:50.53] spk_0:
Welcome back to big non profit ideas for the other 95% on Tony-Martignetti non profit radio nancy, let’s talk a little about financial statements. What

[00:37:53.91] spk_3:
what uh what are the basics

[00:37:55.71] spk_0:
first, what’s the

[00:38:11.62] spk_1:
overview? Um there’s really two major statements that everybody um has to deliver ones the balance sheet, which is a snapshot on any given day. Um Typically the end of the month or the end of the quarter the end of the year, um Which outlines um what the organization owns and what they owe and what they’re worth, which is the difference between everything they own. Um less everything they owe um As far as its paper value is what they would be worth on that day. Uh The other major statement is the statement of activities, also called the profit and loss or A. P. And L. Um Which is where do you get all your money, your income, your revenues from. Um And then what does it go to pay for all your expenses? And the bottom line there is your net income at the end of and of a certain time period. Uh The statement of activities is more like a movie. It covers a period of time. Uh Typically uh the beginning of the year to the end of the most previous sorry the most recent months. Um So if we were on a board uh today we probably wouldn’t see the the statement of activities through the end of february because somebody would have had to have it all cleaned up as of yesterday, but we could expect to see something through the end of january. Um And depending on what your fiscal year was um would determine the beginning period.

[00:39:45.42] spk_0:
We talked earlier about full disclosure. So I’m gonna make a disclosure. The only accounting course that I’ve ever taken I dropped out of because I was I was I was going to fail. So um so I’m perfect for this book. This it’s very informative and it is an easy read and it is helpful guide um nancy help me understand this was always seem like magic to me on a balance sheet. How is it that the assets equal to the liabilities? How does that always come out? So equal? I mean uh it’s intended that way obviously, how does that

[00:40:01.35] spk_1:
possible? It seems like um now you’re asking somebody who was not trained as a classically trained accountants,

[00:40:07.75] spk_0:
you can’t pull back. Now your name is on the book, your name is there, I’m looking right at it says nancy Wasserman,

[00:40:12.49] spk_1:
but it’s um it’s based on double entry bookkeeping which was developed by the chinese and it’s uh follows up from the abacus and um really was sort of uh uh amplified by the Italians in the renaissance essentially when you put an entry in double entry book, keeping everything that goes up, something has to go down and uh it all balances out in the end and the cash comes out. And if your balance sheet that’s like number one, if the balance sheet, if the total assets does not equal the total liabilities and equity, um it is an incorrectly prepared balance sheet and they call it a balance sheet.

[00:40:51.96] spk_0:
Right? Yes, exactly, I love that my italian forebears had something to do with confusing me now in the current day. Um Okay, what how can we help uh Board members nancy, who whose eyes kind of glaze over when they get to the balance sheet, Aside from looking to see whether the two uh the assets and liabilities equal, which they always

[00:42:08.60] spk_1:
do right. Step number one, the balance. Um Number two, um Do your total current assets, in other words, what what can be cash within a year’s time, um exceed your current liabilities? The things you have to pay off with cash in a year’s time. And so are you liquid or not? Do you have, do you have cash available to do things? Um This is the place where you’re looking for those payroll liabilities or payroll tax liabilities. If there’s a number there that’s frighteningly large, um you’ve got a big problem and if it’s payroll tax liabilities, um you as a board member may be personally liable. Um What are your long term liabilities look like? Is that that’s your debt basically. And you know, does it make sense to you? Is that number reflects the debt? You know the organization has um your net net assets. Now, you know the language of accounting is kind of like greek and um I sometimes think they made up all these names to make it even more confusing.

[00:42:17.36] spk_0:
It would be so much easier if it was, it was italian,

[00:42:19.74] spk_1:
it could be,

[00:42:21.37] spk_0:
it would be, it would, there’s lots of cognitive and it’s a romance language. I think it would be, I’m sorry.

[00:42:56.20] spk_1:
No problem. But that total net assets number, which simply means, you know what this organization more. Um, if it, if it had to liquidate today and um, if that’s a negative number, you should be concerned. Um, and, and there’s certainly many organizations where that is the case. Um, so those are the big things on the balance sheet. You know, does it, does, it sort of makes sense to you to the fixed assets and their value. Um, feel like what you have if you suddenly see something that shows that you have a fixed asset of, you know, equipment worth $100,000 and you’re scratching your head because you have no idea what you have for equipment. Um, Something’s wrong with the balance

[00:43:10.68] spk_0:
and you should and should ask that question. Absolutely. You mentioned earlier frighteningly large numbers, I mean, is part of what we should be doing, looking for anomalies.

[00:44:01.79] spk_1:
Um That’s really what you’re looking. You’re looking for things that, you know, that don’t make sense or don’t feel right or that you can’t um if you can’t, if it doesn’t feel right and you can’t really explain it, you want to ask questions. Um, and, and the numbers, you know, the thing about numbers is um, they’re pretty um, they’re very, you know, they’re either on or off and um, it’s harder to lie with numbers. Um, so you’re gonna know right away that you could have frighteningly large numbers with a, with a complex organization and that would be fine. Um, if if they’re they’re balanced out, if there’s cash in the bank, if it feels like there’s equity.

[00:44:37.09] spk_0:
Mm This is a critical subject. Another question that I asked on the, on the pre pre show survey is for those charities that do have a board committee devoted to financial issues. Are you confident that each committee member is fluent in your numbers and understand your financial position? Only 25% said yes. The remaining 75% were either no or not sure and no was pretty large. About 60%. We have to stop there. Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman are co authors of the board members easier than you think. Guide to nonprofit finances published by Emerson and Church Andy Nancy. Thank you very much for being guests.

[00:44:50.52] spk_1:
Thank you Tony.

[00:44:56.59] spk_0:
Thanks for having us. It’s been a real pleasure. And also thanks to your publisher, Kathleen Brennan at Emerson in church for her promotion assistance for the show.

[00:45:35.69] spk_3:
That was fun. A bit of nostalgia. I had to keep in a short burst of eye of the tiger had had to do that. Thank you for ramping back in time with me Next week. Our 2021 nonprofit technology conference coverage continues. Oh, conference coverage continues. I like that. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o.

[00:45:49.59] spk_5:
Our creative producer is Clan Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm Right, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the

[00:45:56.39] spk_3:
Other 95

[00:45:58.99] spk_5:
go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 24, 2021: Overcome Your Fear Of Public Speaking

My Guest:

Laurie Krauz: Overcome Your Fear Of Public Speaking

We’d rather face death or the dentist, we’d rather talk about money or sex, than have to speak to an audience, even a small one. Laurie Krauz can help you overcome your anxiety around talking in public, with her preparation strategies. She’s a presentation skills coach.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:57.14] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and uh, oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of elia tibial band syndrome if you irritated me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, overcome your fear of public speaking, we’d rather face death or the dentist, we’d rather talk about money or sex than have to speak to an audience even a small one, Laurie Krauss can help you overcome your anxiety around talking in public with her preparation strategies. She’s a presentation skills coach. tony state too. Next week is Memorial Day, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o what a pleasure to welcome back After really too long a hiatus, Laurie Krauss to nonprofit radio having worked in both the corporate and entertainment industries, Laurie brings great skill from a remarkably eclectic educational and professional background to her work as a public speaking presentation and interview skills coach. She’s a professional entertainer and has helped men and women from all over the world and all walks of life achieve their own personal and professional styles while developing their ability to offer dynamic, compelling presentations. She’s also helped AmeriCorps, Sony BMG BBC television, jOHn jay College of Criminal Justice, martignetti planned giving advisors aptly named mary J Blige Foundation for the Advancement of Women. Now you’ll find Lori crafts on linkedin. Hello, Laurie, welcome back.

[00:02:06.60] spk_0:
Hello, tony It’s always great to talk to you.

[00:02:18.94] spk_1:
It’s a pleasure. It’s a job getting my, my synesthesia is kicking in. I just got chills because I know we’re going to have a valuable fun time together. I don’t know how long it’s going to be, but uh, there were,

[00:02:23.02] spk_0:
it won’t be a problem with us having to live through those uncomfortable silences. That’s french to work.

[00:02:51.64] spk_1:
Oh no, no, no, not at all. Absolutely Right. You know, I have my, as you’ve trained me through the years, I have my glass of warm water and I have my, you have yours. Yes, yes. I have my grandfather’s, my tin of Grifters past styles, uh, non sugar. I like the sugar free variety for uh, for potential throats and I’m feeling a little throaty today. So I took a prophylactic actually. I took a uh

[00:03:13.54] spk_0:
yeah, it’s, you know, it’s that allergy time of year and actually we can start with a little bit of that tip is, I’ve really been struggling with allergies this year. It’s very weird because I don’t usually, and so that idea of having something like whatever it is, you would use the halls or you know, I like agricola ready because coughing begets coughing and so tip number one, have something like that ready before you’re not going to be able to leave the room or leave the screen or leave the microphone and go get something.

[00:03:43.94] spk_1:
Have you have your AIDS within arm’s within our, when we get back to face to face presentations on the, on the second shelf for the podium. Uh, well, I don’t like podiums somewhere near you have a little table with a little water. Okay? But we’re getting we’re getting ahead. We’re getting ahead. Don’t be an anarchist stuff. Uh, it’s tony-martignetti non profit radio not Laurie Krauss.

[00:03:55.10] spk_0:
I’m so scared

[00:03:56.42] spk_1:
right now. You’re merely the guest.

[00:03:58.39] spk_0:
You’re merely the guest. Yes,

[00:04:01.54] spk_1:
I’m brutal to my guests.

[00:04:02.79] spk_0:
All right. All right, I’m ready. I’m ready to have a formal

[00:04:25.24] spk_1:
Yes. I prepared a formal question for you. So you are jazz singer, which I have first hand knowledge of because I’ve paid to see you perform. So I know this for a fact. It’s not rumor innuendo. How does singing? And maybe jazz singing especially inform your public speaking coaching?

[00:04:48.64] spk_0:
That’s now I want to say that’s a great question, but I also want to say a little caveat about saying to an interviewer. That’s a great question. That will be the last time I say that because a lot of times people say that because they’re buying time to answer. And so if you as the interview, we keep saying, that’s a great question, tony It just sounds like your bs ng the interviewer.

[00:04:57.36] spk_1:
I don’t get too many guests,

[00:04:58.59] spk_0:
but it is a great question. Thank you. I

[00:05:06.24] spk_1:
don’t get too many guests complimenting my questions actually, it’s a rarity, so thank you, thank you. However obsequious it maybe, or in your case not hesitating at all, but thank you for

[00:07:26.04] spk_0:
that. So, having said that, what’s interesting about it to me is that uh public speaking is an improvisation when you get and you know this, when you get really good at it, you are not afraid of punting, you are not afraid of moving to some other thing that if I leave my script, I’m, I’m doomed because I have practiced this and I am going to do exactly this and that’s what makes for boring speakers, a great speaker is simply having a conversation with their audience. The audience just isn’t actually verbally responding. And so, you know, I always say to people, you think you need to be fancy, you don’t go and look at ted talks, go on youtube and google great uh presentations for college graduations. You will find that your favorite speakers are not using big words, they’re not using fancy paragraphs. They are simply talking and that’s what makes a great speaker. So as a jazz singer, first of all, there’s some technical things like you learn to breathe and speakers don’t get that. Speaking is a physical act and that you really actually need to be warmed up. We’re recording this early today, so I can’t not speak or move before I come to sit down and have a conversation with you. I won’t have enough breath, I won’t have enough energy. And that’s what a singer learns to warm up. A singer learns to practice out loud. You cannot think your song, you have to actually practice it. But it’s the same for athletes. I often say that becoming a great speaker we can borrow from disciplines like performance art and sports because in both of those activities, people know that they need to have a plan, they need to practice and they need to practice physically. And in the case of a singer out loud and in the case of a jazz singer, you learn, you know, there’s a joke in jazz, there’s no mistakes in jazz when you’re scatting or something like that. It’s how you resolve the phrase. So if you think you’ve hit a note that actually isn’t a good note, it’s only not a good note depending on how you finish the phrase. Same thing with a speaker, it doesn’t have to be a perfect speech. You can really mess up, you can really be awful in points. But if you are really clear about your message and passionate about your message, it can be messy and you can still get the job done.

[00:08:27.84] spk_1:
Uh There’s a lot I love in their uh the one that stands out the most is the graduation speakers. There are so many veterans just so simple down to earth, compelling. Uh, I think of steve jobs that I’m pretty sure it was stanford and I forget what year it was, but he tells the story of when he was in college, why he dropped out of college, but how learning fonts in a calligraphy course that he was auditing. He wasn’t even, he wasn’t even a student at the time, I think it’s just dropping in. But you know, there was no security on college campuses.

[00:08:38.01] spk_0:
Then he

[00:08:49.34] spk_1:
like dropped in and, but that informed fonts on the Mac, that’s how we got away from whatever times, new roman that, that, uh, that IBM had at the time. So they’re just, you know, down to earth. Um, Will Ferrell has a very good one. But anyway, the graduation speakers

[00:11:07.94] spk_0:
are, people always think they need to sound smart and and you actually sound more intelligent when you have a real comfort level with what it is you’re saying and why you’re saying it. I often say to people when I’m teaching workshops, if you and the people listening to this will have the benefit of it, how many fancy words am I going to use here and look at that last sentence. If you saw that in writing, you wouldn’t publish that in an article, you wouldn’t publish how many fancy words am I going to use here? You would say it more fancy in the article, but a speech is not an article. A speech is a conversation and so I have to put words in my mouth, literally, I have to put words in my mouth that my mouth is comfortable saying literally the anatomy of lorries mouth, my lips, my tongue, my jaw need to be comfortable saying what I’m saying so often with a client. When they say something, I’ll say, now, is that something you would say to friends if you were hanging out at dinner having a drink, Would you say it that way? And I’m not being funny here. I’m asking that because a speech should not be the time when you practice new vocabulary or phrases and paragraphs structure, you should be making it easy for your mouth to do what it does. You think about an athlete and athlete play? I was just watching tennis. So I’m an avid tenor. Tennis in my brain I’m a tennis player, but in reality I’m a much better tennis watcher than I am player and I’m fascinated by what is similar about tennis and public speaking. I was just watching Rafael Nadal, he’s playing his game, he’s not trying to do what his opponent is doing. His job is to do what he does best as a tennis player. And that’s the speaker’s job. Put stuff in your mouth that your mouth is used to saying. And you will be a good speaker

[00:11:09.64] spk_1:
you said earlier. It’s a conversation with the audience. It’s just that they’re not active participants in the Q and A section, which happens to be my

[00:11:27.84] spk_0:
tony is one of my very, and I mean this very few clients that enjoys the Q and A section, people are usually terrified by that. And that is in that is jazz. Yeah,

[00:13:09.14] spk_1:
I love it. I love I love doing the Q and A’s. Well, yeah, we’ve so, uh, to be a good uh, to stay in line with the lessons that I had learned have learned had learned learned from you through the years. Um It’s been years since we worked together, but you were in my formative speaking years when I was scared and pretentious and thought I needed big words and I didn’t understand it was a conversation. And so uh you always urged that we we we guide the audience, like I’m I’m responsible for the audience. The audience is counting on me to take them through a journey and Uh within the requisite time not to go over time, not to be rushed in the last five minutes because I realized that I got 20 minutes left of material. And now the audience feels screwed because I’m blowing through the second half of my slides in the last five minutes of of an hour long presentation, you know? Yeah, the audience is counting on you. So as a guide path, I always and I’m gonna I’m gonna do it now. Um Now we say, here’s where we’re headed, that’s my agenda slide. Somebody else might call an agenda. I say here’s where we’re headed. So here’s where here’s where you and I are headed. Talk about the goal of your speaking research, right? Practice the last hour, the last five minutes, the last one minute in the post post post performance. So that’s where that’s where we’re headed. What about goals, goals that I

[00:13:11.59] spk_0:
want to. I want to back up just a little bit

[00:13:14.58] spk_1:
now. Goals what? Oh, you know, I thought you were gonna disapprove of my where we’re

[00:17:24.04] spk_0:
headed slide. No, no, no, no, no. I want you there was a lot in that and I wanna keep it very simple for a moment. What happens a lot of times is you get an email and you’ve been asked to speak. And in the email, the subject line gives you the title of whatever it is they’re looking for you to talk about. And what most people do is they then write a presentation about what was in the re line. You know what the subject line said and what I think everyone needs to understand about developing a presentation Is that when in my opinion, when you speak publicly, whether it’s one on 11 on two or one on 20,000, whether it’s a job interview, whether it’s a commencement address or whether it’s what most people are doing, which is giving presentations, well not now, but In conference rooms are on Zoom or to you know, groups of 15-20 and sometimes more than that, whenever you do that, you are opening your mouth to speak because you are trying to move the listener and this is what you were talking about, about taking care of the audience and what it is. They sort of have an expectation from you. That’s this. You are trying to move them from their point a on your topic. That was that subject line to your point B This is not a passive thing of just shooting the poop about something you are trying to motivate and energize the listener to change their mind to come over to your side about your point. That is why you’re talking. Never forget that, ever, ever. It will inform all the things you’ve just talked about. Like what’s the goal? So you say goal, I I call it core message. Ask not what your country can do for you. Yes, we can, things like that. What is it? That is going to be the motivating theme of my presentation. If I want to get people to contribute money to my organization, if I want to get people to vote for me, that’s that’s the easiest one to use as an example. If in a commencement speech, what’s your core message there? I work every single year with commencement speakers And everyone thinks they just need to talk, tell their life story. No, you’re supposed to take that crowd of 8000 people and I like to think of it as a science fiction movie when you’re done speaking, they’re gonna go running screaming to the exit to take an action. What action do you want them to take in the case of a commencement speech? You want them to go out there and take a risk or you know, you need to get much more specific than that, but in the case, you want people to do something, you want them to reach in their pocket and this is not commencement. Now, in the case of wanting money from the listeners for your organization, you want the people to leave that room. This is the simplest one to explain, reach into their pocket, rip out of water bills and shove it in your hand on their way out the door. People need to get that specific about what their goal is. And the core message is the theme that runs through your speech that informs the writing of the speech. That is how you get the people to change their minds and to sign up for whatever it is you’re wanting from them. So that would be the that your goal is in every presentation to move people from their point A on your topic to your Point B.

[00:17:40.44] spk_1:
And you do that through your core message, which pervades which pervades everything. And and sometimes you don’t even, maybe most times I’m thinking like I don’t even necessarily say the

[00:17:44.33] spk_0:
core message. You’re saying that

[00:18:09.44] spk_1:
you’re you’re you’re just hitting it from so many different. There’s a there’s something in trial. Look, I I spent only two years as a lawyer because I hated it. Very, very unpleasant way to make a lot of money. But I remember more from long. I learned more, much more in law school and I learned as an attorney for two years. And when I was in my trial practice courses in a Temple Law school. Now the Beasley School of Law, like, like mrs Beasley, the old dull on a family of

[00:18:14.31] spk_0:
mrs Beasley don’t trash mrs B. Plate,

[00:18:17.39] spk_1:
but it’s not she doesn’t deserve at the law school named after some wealthy donor trial attorney in philadelphia does

[00:18:24.71] spk_0:
all right.

[00:19:20.34] spk_1:
But so I still say it’s Temple University School of Law. Just Temple, not the Beasley School. So you have this you have what you want people to believe, You people the jury and you get at it like that’s in the circle, that’s the circle in the middle. And then you have all these spokes like presidents, their witnesses, their words, their story, you know, whatever it is, you’re to inform that or to get to that core message. But you never really say the core message until in trial. You don’t say it until the closing the closing argument. That’s why it’s the opening statement. But it’s a closing argument. That’s when you coalesce all those spokes into that hub of the core message and only in your closing argument. And and it’s a natural progression if you’ve done it right? So yeah, so you’re not really speaking your core message, your you’re hinting it, you’re controlling it. I don’t you’ll you’ll be more articulate about what you’re doing around it

[00:19:27.74] spk_0:
out, did you? I’m not articulate at all. I just talk. Um so I’m sorry, interrupted. You’ve been

[00:19:33.37] spk_1:
talking longer about talking than I have

[00:20:11.04] spk_0:
seen a particular. I actually often when I’m teaching, you know, the only way I can demonstrate a core message is to use one that existed that people know where those come from, those come from politics. So one of my favorite examples is where they didn’t say the core message in politics. When Bill Clinton was running the first time in the war room, you know, where they plot and plan everything on the wall. There was a sign that said it’s the economy stupid. Now Bill Clinton never went and said in an interview, well, it’s the economy. Stupid James

[00:20:14.01] spk_1:
Carville, right? Exactly. It

[00:20:15.77] spk_0:
was James Carville who stars

[00:20:17.58] spk_1:
in that documentary, The War Room,

[00:20:19.36] spk_0:
which is That’s right, That’s right. And that’s exactly, that’s exactly what that was.

[00:20:24.76] spk_1:
Clinton never said that.

[00:23:44.44] spk_0:
He never said it, but it was the core message, so that any time he was asked a question no matter whether it was about education or buses or human beings, he brought it back to the economy. So he did what we hear all the time in politics. But what speakers who are trying to get funding for something, don’t get politicians that win stay on message. And that means the core message. Now, sometimes a regular person can have a core message that they do say out loud throughout their speech, but they don’t have to, like you said, it informs everything that you put together for your presentation, so that I often say to people, it’s kind of like the Sophie’s choice of your speech, something maybe a really interesting thing to say. But if it doesn’t serve the Master and the Master is the core message, if it doesn’t serve the master, it’s going to be in some other speech someday. Not this one because another thing that’s really important for speakers to understand, and again, politicians who win, get this. In fact, Your audience is only going to retain between two and 15 of what you say. And yet, because speakers are afraid of not having enough to say or sounding stupid, they flood their speeches with data and so no one is listening, and if they are, they’re not retaining. If you want to move people, motivate them, ignite them To move from their point a on your topic to your point B you need to target their heart and their solar plexus, not their brain. And I have about 400 million examples over the years with clients that I have wrestled to the ground about this. One of my favorites was a client who was an O. B. G. Y. N. Who was going to be giving a presentation to a room filled with O. B. G. Y. N. And I said to her, you need to dumb this down, you’re going to bore the heck out of them. And she’s like, no offense, but you’re not a physician, you don’t get this. And I said, I do get better, You blew up better. Don’t you dare say that to me. Yeah. So um she was bloodied, she was actually a long term clients. So I was able to say stuff to her and I convinced her that I actually was right and I I often say we wrestled to the ground. I finally got her to come to my side. Her presentation was so fabulous and so not data based, but more it was uh, it was on sexually transmitted diseases. And so there’s a whole storyline of who’s coming into the emergency room with this, what’s their life like, you know, tell their story and infuse it with the data and she killed it. She hard to say about a doctor, but she just, it is the hardest thing I have to get people to do is to let go of what they perceive to be. Makes a human being sound smart when they talk. It’s not data, it’s a command of the subject matter and a passion for what you’re saying. And you get that passion from a core message that you believe really strong land

[00:24:06.64] spk_1:
it goes to the heart, not the brain,

[00:24:09.34] spk_0:
correct?

[00:24:23.74] spk_1:
Let’s put together there’s a bunch of stuff, we can talk about frustration. We’ll work that in, uh, there were times when I was sure you were going to throw me out of your apartment. I think you were on the, I’m sure you were on the verge of it. You if we hadn’t been working together for a long time years ago, you you might have,

[00:25:04.24] spk_0:
you know, I never want, you know what, that’s as a coach, you know, think about this as a coach in sports that goes on all the time. And athletes are used to that as a teacher in the performing arts that goes on all the time because the creative process is very frustrating and we all, we have blocks about that and we have, we we hit walls about that. And so whenever I work with someone who comes from the performing arts, I don’t actually have the same learning curve of having my client become more comfortable with the discomfort and the the electricity that goes on between student and teacher and in sports. They know it part of the creative process, the process of becoming a great athlete and being a team player. These are very, very frustrating things.

[00:25:28.14] spk_1:
It’s almost record. But out of

[00:25:28.91] spk_0:
frustration comes breakthroughs,

[00:25:31.84] spk_1:
activity, understanding recognition of, of where, where I need to go that I didn’t understand before my frustration

[00:27:05.34] spk_0:
and I had the same thing. I remember one time I musical director, we decided to my my nephew was getting married and I wanted to, he asked me to sing at his wedding and I was adamant that I wasn’t going to sing Sunrise Sunset, that I wanted to write something. So my musical director Darrell gave me a piece of music that he had and I wrote lyrics and I went back and forth a bit with him and he’s done a lot of writing. So he’s a good coach for this. And the middle of the song, what we call the Bridge. He had some issues with. And I thought he was wrong. I was done. This is good. It is good. I am dying. And I that I left that rehearsal because I knew he knew more than me about this. I left that rehearsal furious and also committed to at least trying. I’ll just look at it. And of course it, he was right. And through my frustration, I was able to come up with something that what I had written wasn’t ready yet. And that’s the creative process. It is very hard for me personally, when I see when I have to allow a client to leave, therapists do this all the time, allow a client to leave, Not feeling happy, not feeling good, feeling incomplete and frustrated. Because I know that’s part of this freaking process.

[00:27:11.49] spk_1:
If you’re doing it right. It is, it is. But it leads to breakthrough. Absolutely. I I saw it a dozen times, working with you and and since and

[00:27:24.34] spk_0:
since in your goal at the time. I’m sorry to interrupt. Well I’m not really

[00:27:25.77] spk_1:
sorry.

[00:28:00.44] spk_0:
Um your goal at the time, I will never forget because most of the time my clients are business people who want the skill set of presentation skills to not be in their way at work. Your goal was loftier. You wanted to be really great at it, integrated, wanted to have your own radio show someday. And so your your proof of what the process that you did, what you put into it. I just simply lead the horse to water.

[00:28:30.64] spk_1:
Thank you. Well yeah, it was a it was a frustrating journey to the, to the trough. But not not not like every session, but uh but there is, yeah, there’s the there’s the time I fucking this is done. I’ve worked on this enough. It’s ready. You’re supposed to just tell me, uh you hit it. You hit it right on man. You nailed no notes, no corrections, improvements, no suggestions. You nailed it. Okay. We’re done five minutes. That’s what I was expecting.

[00:29:09.74] spk_0:
You know, there’s like never a time if you have a director for something, there is never a time where they don’t see room for growth. It’s so frustrating. Especially if you’re a person who is more emotional and sensitive and I certainly am that I would love there to be one time where you’re told everything is perfect. The unfortunate truth and and public speaking is a performance art in a performance art. If you’ve been perfect, you have failed. It’s supposed to be imperfect. You know, think about when you’re talking to your friends. If you were perfect talking to your friends, you would be boring.

[00:29:16.78] spk_1:
Yeah. They wouldn’t go to the bar with, you

[00:29:18.47] spk_0:
know. That’s exactly right when we start going to bars again. Yeah. They wouldn’t

[00:29:24.44] spk_1:
they wouldn’t have a night out with you because you bore them to shit right? There isn’t

[00:29:25.27] spk_0:
words that you

[00:29:46.74] spk_1:
think they want to hear it right? There’s not enough alcohol to dull the senses from your uh pretentious over the top speech. Um Look, I have to uh I’m in charge of the audience here, so I have to move us. I have to move us on. And we’re gonna we’re gonna put a couple of things together. Research and writing. Okay, searching, writing. Can we coalesce those?

[00:30:05.84] spk_0:
Let me just say one thing about forcing to finish everything. Um If you’re focused on crossing all the T. S and dotting all the I’s and this interview is a great example, then they’re not going to remember everything we’re talking about anyway. You gotta you gotta

[00:30:09.65] spk_1:
work with Laurie Krauss. I mean we can only yeah, thank you. I can’t make you a great speaker on nonprofit radio But Laurie Krauss can so you just

[00:30:18.15] spk_0:
got there we go. We’re done

[00:30:23.54] spk_1:
talking to when I interview authors about their books, I you can’t run through every page, We hit the highlights, you gotta buy the

[00:30:46.64] spk_0:
damn book and I’m happy to get through whatever. But when you but for the audience in your presentation, try and leave a lot of breathing room. You’re more scared about having not enough. And you should be more scared about having too much because you want to you want to motivate the people to move from their point a to your point be your goal is not to cross every T and dot every I. They’re not going to remember anyway. All right. So research and writing. Is that what you asked me?

[00:30:58.14] spk_1:
Yes, please. I know their distinct, distinct processes.

[00:31:01.97] spk_0:
That’s okay. Research.

[00:31:03.94] spk_1:
You’re you’re an improvisation. Ist your supervisor

[00:34:09.84] spk_0:
go with it. I’m actually preparing a webinar for a new group. And just before we started, I was sitting down because I had asked the person who is contracting my services to give me Who are the people I’m going to be talking to. You know what I want to know the demographics. I want to know what they do now. This is a group that comes from the same organization. So they work for the same place. But he sent me a whole bunch of stuff about Uh, the organization’s mission and all that’s great. I love it. But I don’t know who I’m talking to. Still. There are 12 people I’m told, Who are they? How old are they? I don’t want to ever be surprised. I want to know that everything I’m preparing to say is targeted for the right people. I don’t want to all of a sudden I think I’m talking to a bunch of 50 year olds and show up and they’re all 23. That would be an absolute disaster for when you’re trying to motivate people. And I’m saying this over and over again because this is the point I’m trying to motivate them and in this case I’m coaching them on public speaking, I’m trying to motivate them to throw spaghetti at the wall and try the stuff I’m talking about. So I want to make sure I’m talking to the people who are in front of me. So research involves getting to know who your audience is, even if you think, you know, get to know them more specifically. The best speeches are specific. Most people talk above the topic instead of in it and threw it like steve jobs. Talking about fonts that’s in it. That’s something specific that my brain and heart, I’ve had experiences with fonts that we all can latch onto. So what’s my audience going to latch onto? My best guess is to try and get to know them a little bit before I start writing my speech. Where is it going to be? Is that a webinar? Is it in person? These are going to require very different things from me. Is it a big room? A little room? And am I required to stand at a podium? Am I going to be amplified? You want to get a sense of what all the different elements are of the presentation is so that you can relax and feel comfortable in the environment and with the people in front of you and start convincing them. So once you do all that research, then you sit down and you ask yourself. So this is the topic. The topic is my organization because of the pandemic is has just bled all our money. We need a lot of times people in the nonprofit area want to say support, I say call it as it is, we need you. It’s funny because when I work in the for profit environment, those people have no problem saying we need your money.

[00:34:25.65] spk_1:
But

[00:37:44.93] spk_0:
yeah, yeah. But man in the most wonderful organizations in the world, it’s like pulling teeth to get people to say I need you to volunteer to help out on Thursdays and I need you to bring 10 people with you. You can’t okay can you bring to or I need you can you can you When you leave here, can you put a $5 bill in that been, you know, it really can be very specific. And so once you’ve done all your research and you know what your topic is, then you start working on that core message, that underlying theme. It’s going to run through your presentation that will allow you to move those people to your point B and then when you have that core message, this is how much work this is. Then you sit down and you start writing and this is one of theirs. I think only two times I ever use what is out there in the world of public speaking coaching because I don’t agree with most of it. But this one I agree with when you write your presentation, that’s what you were saying earlier. tony tell them what you’re gonna say, say it, tell them what you said, keep it simple, Develop a very simple road map roadmap is your outline. One of the reasons and there’s a couple of reasons for that. People are only going to retain between two and 15 of what you say and that’s a real statistic. And also when I’m talking I know what I’m going to say next. The listener doesn’t. So even the most simple concepts can get lost because the listeners like a nanosecond behind you, they don’t just have to hear the word, they have to evaluate it. So keep it simple. Everything needs to serve the master. So sit at your computer and you have your core message, you’ve done your research. Just dump thought, don’t edit yourself. Don’t judge yourself. Just dump thought. Put it away if you have time, hopefully for a couple days bring it back up again and start looking for where there’s commonality where you can sort of see where you’re outline is going to come from. You know, the headings. If you’re in in my workshop, I teach research, right practice and then warm ups and so I came up with that by doing exactly this process. I dumped thought and then first I thought I had six categories and then I want weed it down to four, put everything in categories. Eventually you’re going to end up with bullets bullet points. The only people who really use scripted stuff. Our commencement speakers and politicians you don’t need to have when I when you leave your speech, your goal shouldn’t be. Do I get an A for doing all my bullet points? Your goal should be. Do I think I motivated those people do. I think I moved those people. That’s your goal. So that’s sort of the cliff notes version of all that.

[00:37:54.53] spk_1:
What an improviser handle that. You handle that

[00:37:56.57] spk_0:
definitely in adroitly. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:38:28.32] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Where do you want to be heard? Where do you want to communicate? Media conferences, blogs, podcasts. Do you need content for your own site? You want to communicate better and your own owned media? Turn to communications. They can help you with all of that. They’ve got the relationships to help you on the outside. They got the expertise to help you on the inside with your owned

[00:38:35.35] spk_0:
media

[00:38:50.82] spk_1:
turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony’s take two Next week is Memorial Day. We remember those who died in

[00:38:51.92] spk_0:
military service

[00:39:29.42] spk_1:
and those who served, I served, I was in the Air Force for five years. And I think we sometimes lose sight of that because it’s also a blowout weekend, beginning of summer, of course, which I appreciate down here on the beach in north Carolina. At the risk of digressing though we don’t really well, it is, it is the beginning of a formal season, but the beach is never really get very crowded here. And you know, it’s north Carolina. We have summer eight months a year. So I, I feel bad for you if you’re not here. No, that was the uh, digression.

[00:39:32.82] spk_0:
Let’s sum,

[00:41:41.81] spk_1:
I have a timer. I’m gonna set a timer for those who have served and those who died. Let’s take 30 seconds of silence together. Think of them maybe their loved ones or maybe it’s just something abstract for you. But some the folks, the folks who served our country, let’s remember them. Thank you. Thank you very much. My fellow veterans, thanks for serving. Thank you. My thoughts are with you. If you lost someone who served it doesn’t matter that where there was a war conflict or you know, people sometimes just die in the military, non war, non conflict. Um, sometimes there are shootings and sometimes there are just deaths, people serving, having nothing to do with the conflict, whatever it is, if you lost someone, my thoughts are with you That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for overcome your fear of public speaking. Your practice practicing you like you used to ask me to practice while I was doing jumping jacks, pushups, high voice, low voice, comic voice. Um Those are the ones, you know, I hope I retained more than 2-15 of what you taught me. No, that’s different though repetition

[00:41:44.21] spk_0:
though over and over. That’s a different thing.

[00:41:55.51] spk_1:
Very interesting. What I retained when we were working together was it was it 2-15 or was it just 2%? Uh but maybe that’s because I only retained. I retained on the low end. I forgot the 15 possibility at the high end.

[00:42:16.00] spk_0:
I think sometimes people remember too because it’s devastating news. Wait, I am killing myself here. I am doing my own research on what I want to include. And I’m Having to have energy and volume and personality. And you’re going to leave here remembering 2%. But yes. So I think people remember two because it’s just devastating.

[00:42:32.40] spk_1:
I didn’t I didn’t remember the 15 possibility on the high end. All right. A little bit. A little about practice. You have you have unusual ways at least. I thought unusual ways of encouraging practice.

[00:45:11.99] spk_0:
It’s actually not all that unusual. There are other people who teach presentation skills who are former actors that use stuff like this. But the practice techniques all come from the world of the performing arts and from sports. That the concept of it from sports if you what what’s happening is practicing is so freaking boring and so you want to just number one, make it more fun. And since you have to do it over and over again doing things like dancing while you practice or singing while you practice or pretending that you’re angry or punching or doing yoga while you practice it just makes it less boring. And you have to practice out loud. And the other thing that doing practice in those ways does is that what you’re trying to achieve in practicing is to become more conversational. And what is more conversational is having a more varied verbal and nonverbal way of expressing yourself verbal is the sound, non verbal, is body language and facial expression. And so instead of, we’re going to work on your body language today, which I think only makes people self conscious by doing other activities. It distracts you and in the process of distracting you. It also ekes out other verbal and nonverbal behavior that despite yourself will become a part of the relaxation in your body that allows you to be more flavorful, verbally and nonverbally when you speak. It also will make you lose your place. And so the practicing in those kinds of ways also tricks you into forgetting where you are and having to find your way back again. That business of people getting freaked out because they can’t remember where they are. That’s that has got to stop. I mean, you know at my age that happens more and more, but I’m not freaked out about forgetting where I am because I know the goal is not perfection. Perfect. And studies show audiences don’t care about not only do they not care about perfection. They hate it in a speaker and they become suspicious of the speaker and the authenticity and man, is it important for you to be authentic?

[00:45:36.09] spk_1:
I just, I just saw an example of that. I won’t name the two guys or the name of the training company. I know it uh and they did a webinar. Somebody referred me to one of the webinars because it’s about planned giving and she wanted me to see what they what their theories are, and the guys were trying to act like they was spontaneous. Oh, that’s a very good

[00:45:41.09] spk_0:
point that you

[00:46:23.48] spk_1:
just need jimmy. Oh. Oh yes, I was thinking about that just the other day johnny and it was like such bullshit. I couldn’t I couldn’t what? Well, I I only agreed with about 10 of what they were saying anyway, so I didn’t watch the whole thing, but but the two of them, they were both on the screen at the same time and and they were trying to be improvisers. It was it was just off, I was so disingenuous and that’s just so affected. I could tell that they’ve they’ve done this, oh, that’s a good point. I’ve never thought of that jimmy, I could tell that he said that all the previous 40 webinars that he’s done at that exact moment to jimmy, you know, it was such nonsense,

[00:47:06.68] spk_0:
you know. And the thing is you need to know that your audiences, they are savvy people. You know the whole reason people nobody language, they know what they hear the tone that that you’re describing is tone. You just know it’s false. And so the goal, that’s why it’s so important to put words in your mouth that your words are not only that you used to sing, but that you’re the anatomy of your head can get through them really easily. That it is literally what, how you talk in conversation. And so when you practice your speech out loud and notice how I’m finding my way back to this. When you practice your speech out loud and you do it in all these other ways. It is tricking you because you also will change some of your words as you’re doing it because it just doesn’t feel organic to you. And if it doesn’t feel organic to you, you trust me, your audiences are all over that.

[00:47:42.38] spk_1:
Something else. You taught me small nugget. But I’ve I’ve kept it and it’s helped me a bunch of times. Your audiences don’t know what you didn’t say, but you left out that you you practiced it a dozen times and somehow you just left it out. Don’t beat yourself up. Nobody knows.

[00:48:49.47] spk_0:
Well actually it’s not only um and again, I’m so glad you’re bringing this up because I’ve talked about this in our chat today, but Mhm. Boy, are you putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable? As my dad used to love to say when you focus on did you cross all your T. S and dot all your I’s? Which is my way of saying, Did you say everything you had set out to say if that is the litmus test that you’re looking at for how you did, it’s a fail litmus test is did you motivate and move people? You know, I’m gonna leave this conversation and think of a million things we could have talked about, but I’m in it, I’m in the I’m enjoying myself, it’s a fun back and forth and I’m excited about the things we’re saying. I’m excited about the points that we’re making and that’s the point of any presentation. Because you’re trying to motivate people, you’re not trying to get an a on a math test.

[00:49:09.67] spk_1:
If you have enough spokes pointing to that hub, that’s that’s my metaphor of that core message. Then you left one or two out. It doesn’t matter, you had another dozen. You hit it so many other ways, it doesn’t matter. And

[00:49:17.22] spk_0:
usually I actually leave

[00:49:18.75] spk_1:
out your main points, You know,

[00:49:20.23] spk_0:
I actually want to strongly disagree with how you’re even saying

[00:49:24.89] spk_1:
that it

[00:49:31.47] spk_0:
does matter if that’s what you’re looking at. It does matter because it’s a fail to look at it that

[00:49:34.68] spk_1:
way. That’s how you’re evaluating

[00:51:35.06] spk_0:
yourself. Yes. It not only if you are evaluating yourself by how many spokes you hit or that you missed a major point, you are missing the whole point of your presentation which was to motivate people and you don’t know, you know, your main point main point might not even be the thing that motivates them. I mean that’s my understanding, I’m fascinated by um the whole process of courtroom from, you know, your opening statement, all the other stuff to the closing argument that it that lawyers will, they’ll be so surprised by the verdict because they thought they hit a nail on the head and they thought they saw those people agreeing with them. Because what they don’t get is there were other little things along the way that for whatever reason, made more of a point, we don’t know what our audience is thinking. So we can just to the best of our ability, pick something, we are passionate about, pick a core message, We are just absolutely all about pick things to say that we think are interesting and will interest the people that we think are in front of us. You know, there’s a lot of guesswork here, there’s a lot of jazz to giving a presentation and trying to motivate people because you don’t know, you know, and when I’m teaching a workshop, I’m getting that information secondhand about my audience and so you’re guessing, but your goal and how you should look back and think how did I do is when people left my room, they were talking a lot. They were energized. They, I don’t know what they were saying, but there was a lot of energy in the room when they left then. You know, you did a great job, might not get what you want, but you did your job.

[00:51:53.06] spk_1:
I want to shout you out for being again, an excellent improviser the way you did your callback with opening statements and closing arguments in what I said 15 minutes ago. Whatever, whatever what she brings it back. What That’s

[00:51:54.72] spk_0:
actually that’s a really important point, stand

[00:52:02.85] spk_1:
up comedy. That’s a callback and uh kind of somebody who’s paying attention and can synthesize what someone else said into what they want to say. And that’s why callbacks are so brilliant.

[00:52:43.35] spk_0:
It’s also important for people to remember and, and uh, that listening tells your audience that you actually hear them and you are more likely to motivate people when they feel like you’re not just talking at them, but you hear them, you’re with them, we are one. And so it makes a person feel more important to you. So then they’re more likely to listen to you. We forget that listening is it’s as important in speaking to listen.

[00:53:06.25] spk_1:
That’s why I love the Q and A. Because I get to listen and I want to focus on what people, what’s on people’s minds. And I can use their names and now on the web, you can shout them out by city and state and, and, and if somebody says anonymous, I said, I don’t do anonymous questions. What’s next? You know, of course I answer the anonymous question, but let’s jump to the last hour. It’s the last hour before I go on. What’s your, what’s your 50 tips tricks and strategies for that? Last hour before my curtain,

[00:53:22.45] spk_0:
I just one of my favorite memories and something that I talk about a lot when I’m teaching is you and being at, I forget what convention center where I met you in a stairwell right before you were going to go on and I had

[00:53:28.20] spk_1:
what Marriott marquis, Marriott marquis in new york city. It was the association of fundraising professionals doing a seminar on planned giving

[00:56:35.53] spk_0:
right. And this is what I tell my clients and this is what my client was doing, standing in a stairwell, punching or something like that. What you know, and again, sports performance arts, if you go into a locker room, if you go in, which I’ve never been into an NFL locker room, but I’ve seen videos, you’re going to see people warming up, You’re going to see big bruising linebackers meditating in a corner. That’s what they’re doing. They’re about to go on the field with one thing in mind maim and kill and they are their headphones on and they’re sitting in that like meditative thing, they’re breathing, they’re getting focused. This is what speakers need to do if you go into a theater, most theaters before a show for a lot of them, the entire cast goes out on stage and they do warm ups together and that, that’s for non musicals too. They want the cast to feel the same energy. But also people need to get their bodies warmed up speakers think they can just walk out and talk. Uh, even in this conversation, I’m having to put out a lot of air. It’s a heightened energy of speaking. So you need to warm up, you need to warm up physically and emotionally if you’re terrified, this is really important for you to do because it helps with nerves. Meditation helps with nerves doing physical things. I have people all over the world going into bathroom stalls all over the world, sitting down on the bowl and doing a breathing exercise in through the nose, out through the mouth, slow down your pulse rate, stand up and do some punching. Do do things that I often say there’s things you can do where you need to be completely silent and there’s things you can do at home before you leave, where you can be making more noise to get yourself energized. You want to be careful not to strain your voice, but you want to, if you put on music and dance, go for a walk. If you do yoga, man, yoga is a great thing to do or Pilates before you’re going to speak because it’s loosening up your body. Your entire body supports the sound that you’re going to make and so the hour before you want to get physical, you want to breathe, get air moving through your body and then the moments before you want to try and get you do something. You know, I always excuse myself when I’m teaching, I go to the restroom because usually the rooms filled with people were chit chat beforehand and I need to get focused. I need to remember I’m about to perform, I’m going to be speaking nonstop for however long and so I go into a stall where I can get some privacy and then I always think of a boxer, that Eye of the Tiger where where they’re going toward the ring. I’ve only seen this in movies where they’re going toward the ring and they just have this laser being focused, they’re about to be on

[00:56:47.73] spk_1:
someone knocking on your door.

[00:57:08.33] spk_0:
No, you know what is happening? Is that there? And I could not believe. Of course we’ve all been through this though, I live in midtown and you know, there’s people vacated all over the place here. So the apartment upstairs for me has been vacant and they’ve chosen today to do Whatever it is they’re doing there for the next 10.

[00:57:12.43] spk_1:
If we can’t hide it, we flaunt it. You know, the Fedex guy knocking on your door. Well lawyer lives in a doorman building so the Fedex guy would not get up to her build uh would not get to her apartment,

[00:57:31.73] spk_0:
but not anymore. All things stop at the front door. Those guys may I do a shout out for the people that work in the front of buildings in Manhattan. They have been killing themselves,

[00:57:49.53] spk_1:
shout out for everybody. We learned what an essential worker is. They work in our food stores, they deliver our mail. They are are dorman for those who live in dorman apartment buildings. Of course. Police fire MTs, transit workers,

[00:57:54.33] spk_0:
yep.

[00:57:59.63] spk_1:
Very few people who make over six figures a year are

[00:58:01.01] spk_0:
truly essential

[00:58:02.38] spk_1:
infrastructure. There are there are lifelines.

[00:58:07.82] spk_0:
Yeah, they are. And uh you know, one of the guys in my building told me that and they have a union that he just got his vaccine. How is that even a thing? How is that?

[00:58:36.02] spk_1:
You know, April I’m sorry. It’s may it’s it’s May 13. They’re essential and we learned we learned who we really we knew who we really rely on. Mm. How about our last five minutes, five minutes, one minute is there? Uh I don’t remember if there’s a difference. There’s not really too much of a difference for me. I check my look in the mirror to see if I have spinach in my teeth. Yes, there’s that one, can we do five minutes in one minute together or they two distinct?

[00:59:43.22] spk_0:
Um you know, I’ve never really thought of it that way. I mean there’s that you know, I really think for that last five minutes you’re you’re definitely making sure your breathing, you definitely take a look in the mirror and make sure everything you don’t want to find out after that. You know, you’re whatever thai is in the wrong place or your sash was tied into the back of your pants, that bathroom and you didn’t know. Uh It’s really helpful if you know someone there to have them take a look at you before you go on because you know someone you can trust, but you really, you’re trying to circle the wagons around your passion because what what does the job is having a passion about what you’re saying? And so you want to just also, oh, eight o’clock the night before you are done

[00:59:44.82] spk_1:
There. S Please don’t be scribbling notes in the last hour or last five minutes. You’re saying even you’re saying even 12 hours or 15, 20 hours before by scribbling at the last

[01:01:08.41] spk_0:
minute. My grandmother used to tell me because that was a really good student and I needed a z. She would tell me That after 8:00 the night before a test, there’s nothing more you can learn. Let it go and relax. And I say that it is such good advice. Your goal is not to be perfect. Your goal is to motivate people to be interested in what you’re saying and that will help you to be interesting and let it go, let it go. And the focus turns to the physical and emotional prep and so five minutes before you need to find a way to exit the room. And if that means you can’t leave the room, you can sit in your um chair at the conference room table. If that’s where you are, sit up on your sit bones, you don’t want to be leaning back, breathe, put your feet on the floor, breathe no one’s going to know what you’re doing. Your eyes can be open, breathe in through your nose, out through your mouth and just see you can you can do a visualization of yourself getting up there and just killing it. So that’s that mental prep that athletes really know how to do? Well,

[01:01:20.41] spk_1:
I love the visualization. Yeah. I see myself running through a tape as a as a sprinter running or whatever. Marathoner running through the finish line tape and and uh yeah, my hands are up and the crowd is cheering the visualizations.

[01:01:29.86] spk_0:
I actually I’ll

[01:01:31.03] spk_1:
tell you a little secret,

[01:02:08.50] spk_0:
I have actually never told anybody this, but when I teach group workshops and I do a breathing exercise and then I have people do a visualization, seeing themselves giving the presentation, they’re going to be giving that day in the workshop and watch and I’ll say watch yourself, just get bigger and more and having fun and I see on their faces they start smiling, they’re seeing it and their whole body language changes with their eyes closed and in there, you know, visualization and and I know that person is going to have a better day that day because because they’re doing that, but I love the look on their faces when that’s going on.

[01:02:25.80] spk_1:
How about post, you have savvy advice that has stayed with me through the years. I just finished walking off the stage, sitting down at the table. Maybe it is a table that makes your post a little tougher, but you can excuse yourself. What’s your post advice?

[01:03:11.80] spk_0:
Yeah, I had to learn, I learned this myself from performing, because people have this habit of thinking that there for some reason they have to tell you how you did. And if you’ve done your job as a speaker, remember, I’m telling you that you’re focusing on the heart and solar plexus of your listener and that you need to be really in passionate about your core message in your topic. So, you’ve gone to an emotional place yourself, you have laid yourself role, that’s what actors and athletes do and that’s what speakers who are doing a great job do. And so now you’re done and you’re still raw. So you’re, you know, you’re sensitive and all of a sudden people are coming over and they need a piece of you or they need to tell you something about how you did. So it’s good

[01:03:24.50] spk_1:
If you can I just interject or they’re so excited. They’ve got questions for you, right? six people lined up to ask you questions

[01:04:25.39] spk_0:
and you can’t take care of everybody at once and you’re aware of that too. And so, you know, you want to say, go back to that bathroom and have a couple of minutes on that bowl. But if you’re trying to get people to be involved in your organization or whatever your topic was in some way, you really can’t leave. So it’s good for you. If you can just, you know, you can be talking to people and you can be breathing, they’re going to be talking, you’re going to have time where you’re not talking. And so just try to breathe. Just try that, same in through your nose, out through your mouth. If you can get used to that sort of meditation breath, you can use it all the time. And you know, it’s like you want to, you can visualize your pulse rate coming down and just try. Those are ways to try and calm down. It’s ultimately you kind of want to be able to almost disassociate from all the energy and the need for you. It’s like your mommy and all the Children are tugging at

[01:04:38.63] spk_1:
your

[01:04:55.89] spk_0:
dress. But um, but the fact is, if that’s what’s going on, you did a great job and you will get used to this after the speech thing and find your method over time. But the real comfort and relaxation is going to happen when you get to leave the room. It’s a tough time

[01:05:27.19] spk_1:
alone. You got to be alone. Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. Even just a minute, a minute at the end of the hall bathroom and empty bathroom will work. I love seeing when I, when I have to speak, I love seeing private bathrooms. I can, I can close, I can close the latch and I know I can punch the air and I can, I can bring myself down after. But it’s even really literally just a minute or so. But I need, I see, I guess I I perceive it a little differently if there’s people huddled around and asking questions and they’re all excited because I moved them. I consider myself still on stage.

[01:05:36.61] spk_0:
You are,

[01:05:55.99] spk_1:
I feel like I’m some still performing. I have to be alert listening as you stressed. Uh it’s extended Q and A. Which as I said, is my favorite part. I love the Q and A. So it’s an extension of that. I consider myself still performing and then ultimately the crowd is gonna dwindle. You’re giving out your last card, then I go and I retreat to a private quiet corner or a private bathroom.

[01:08:08.27] spk_0:
Yeah, that, that actually is a real, really important thing that you just said and it’s more accurate, you are still performing. So the thing is that, although if you’re doing a one on one and you feel the need to do the breathing great, but you’re right about that, the reality is you’re still performing and so you need to still be in performing mode Energy, which you most likely will be because you have the energy that’s still with you of having done that show. But I’m that way too though about even if I don’t need to use the restroom before I leave the building, I go use the restroom because I just need, there’s just something about solitude. Look, you’ve really done your job as a performer and this is performing. You have given away yourself to your yourself raw, you said. And so you need to get yourself back and just that moment and quite honestly it’s different for different people and this is where people have to find their way. What are the things that I need to do when I’m done so that I can just relax and feel good and whatever and and right after is not at all the time to evaluate how you think you did right after. You should just feel like you did, you, you showed up, you did your thing and that’s a win. There’s always room for growth unfortunately, unfortunately. And you know, some things I might change for me the whole having to teach public speaking, you know how I teach, you have to teach public speaking presentation skills in a webinar, which is a workshop that is highly interactive when I do it, that has been a very difficult adjustment for me. And uh but that’s what, that’s what you do when you’re learning how to do presentations, it’s very difficult. And so when something like that’s thrown in the mix,

[01:09:25.67] spk_1:
you said something that I want to credit you for, you said you let yourself raw and when you and I were working together, I used to get a little wispy now, I used to aspire to my Springsteen moments because I’ve been to dozens of his concerts, dozens scores of his concerts, and even watching them on a video, you can just see The man, even at 70 plus years old, he’s in a place that few people get to enjoy. I don’t even, you know, uh spiritual, its its professional, it’s just a it’s just a special place. And I used to aspire to those Springsteen moments and I have achieved them. And I would call you at the after when I was after my solitude after, after the performance, after the presentation, After the solitude, I would call you on my way, or this was even before texting and uh and I would say I had a Springsteen moment, it was just, it was just such a feeling that I was I was just cruising and everybody was cruising with me. They were following me as I was presenting and you know, that’s, you know, talk about Let yourself raw, I mean, those are those are exhausting, right? But fulfilling. So gratifying beyond gratifying, you know, help me get there a lot

[01:11:11.46] spk_0:
a lot. Well, you, I mean, tony you threw yourself into everything, but I want to say something more about that for the listeners who might be out there who are soft speakers and don’t, you know, I’m a big emotional person, I like to laugh big, I like to cry big, I like to be big, but there’s a lot of people out there who are not like that and we’re not saying you need to be Springsteen or be really big to be a great speaker, you need to be authentic, you need to have something that you’re talking about, that you are passionate about in your way. And I remember where we met in the, The networking workgroup right? There was a woman in there who um every so often we would get to give a 10 minute presentation and she did everything wrong, everything I tell people not to do. She had written something, she stood up, she read it, she never looked up and she was very soft spoken. Thing is she’s a great writer and it was Incredible. It was so beautiful. So it was like those old painewebber now, I’m aging myself commercials where that when painewebber speaks everybody listens you were like her child for 10, not you, but one was like her child for 10 minutes. You hung on every word. She is the exception to the rule.

[01:11:14.66] spk_1:
She’s also a professional writer and editor. That’s right. 30, 40, 40 years of publishing experience.

[01:11:57.36] spk_0:
Exactly, publishing. But I use that as an example with my students all the time. These are all the things I’m saying we do. And there are people out there who don’t have big personalities, that’s who they are. That doesn’t mean they can’t be a great speaker. It just means that we have to find within them what their passion is on the topic and figure out ways that they can put words in their mouth to allow themselves to just enjoy saying what it is they’re saying and people will listen if you’re authentic. Mhm. When she did that. Yeah, I remember

[01:12:23.85] spk_1:
that. Yeah. We went over time. I don’t know. I had a timer. For some reason. We went over like 10 minutes. I don’t care. It doesn’t matter at all. Laurie Krauss, L A U R E K R A U Z. You’ll find her on linkedin. You just if you want to be better speaker, speak to her uh outstanding. She’s outstanding and you’ve been outstanding through the years. It’s always was a pleasure working with you. I may have you, you know, you’re motivated me. I may have you. Well, I’m doing something today this afternoon. I’m doing a call him quick shot. 45 minute webinar maybe. I’ll have you uh I’ll ask you to look at it. I would like, I’d like your notes after all these years. I’d like some notes,

[01:12:44.25] spk_0:
wow, tony I’m

[01:12:45.55] spk_1:
gonna do it. I’m going at three o’clock. It’s 11 o’clock today. Three and four hours I’m performing um doing a webinar on planned giving. I’m gonna I’m gonna shoot you the video link and uh let’s let’s talk about it. It’s I love it. I love it.

[01:12:59.95] spk_0:
I love talking to you, Tony and I’m so pleased for what you’ve created here. It’s just amazing.

[01:13:07.95] spk_1:
You helped me create it. You did, you were there in my formative

[01:13:09.39] spk_0:
times. Yeah.

[01:14:08.95] spk_1:
Next week, an archive show for the short holiday week. I’ll pick your winner, I promise. It will not be the fermentation show. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, mm hmm. Thank you for that Affirmation scotty. He was in the next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great.