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Nonprofit Radio for February 14, 2020: Relationship Fundraising

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My Guest:

Adrian Sargeant: Relationship Fundraising
There’s a lot of conventional wisdom about how to be donor centric and build strong relationships. But what does social psychology research tell us about how to achieve these and what your donors expect from you at each relationship stage? Adrian Sargeant is chief executive of The Philanthropy Centre. (Originally aired March 18, 2016)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:31.34] spk_3:
non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on her aptly named host, Happy Valentine’s Day. I hope that you and your Valentine or Valentine’s may have multiple. Let’s not go into detail. Are enjoying time together I don’t know together, or at least corresponding together to share your affinity and Valentine’s wishes with each other. Um, I remember. I remember in elementary school this is probably kindergarten or first grade E. I think everybody’s done this. We used to make the little Valentine’s Day cards, and you had you did one card for everybody in your little class. And as I look back on that now, I think that is repugnant, forced like this kindergarten coercion that you have to be Valentine’s with everybody in the class. I hated the

[00:01:05.61] spk_2:
kids in my class is I

[00:02:47.55] spk_3:
Look back now They were They were unrequited. Uh uh. I don’t want to say unrequited loves because we’re talking about kindergarten, unrequited crushes. Yeah, and bullies and geeks who reminded me of myself while I was I was trying to be kindergarten. Cool, of course. So these kids drove me crazy and I have to do a card for each one of these little kids. I should’ve put arsenic in or something. What’s that? White powder? Everybody. Males, I forget what that is. Anthrax, I should put it. I should be interactive. Those kindergarten cards just so big deal. Happy Valentine’s Day. All right, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into cardio megally if you swelled my heart with how much you’re looking forward to today’s show relationship. Fundraising. What else? There’s a lot of conventional wisdom about how to be donor centric and build strong relationships. But what the social psychology research tell us about how to achieve these and what your donors expect from you at each relationship stage. Adrian Sergeant was a professor at Plymouth University and directed its Center for Sustainable Philanthropy that originally aired on March 18th 2016 on Tony’s Take two planned giving relationships. What else were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Adrian Sergeant is now chief executive of the Philanthropy Center, a consultancy in the UK Philanthropy Hyphen Center Dot or GE, with the English speaking um Spelling the English spelling, I should say of Center, Very sophisticated. Here is personalized philanthropy.

[00:03:42.59] spk_2:
It’s my pleasure to welcome Professor Adrian Sergeant to the show. He’s professor of fundraising at Plymouth University and director of the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy. There he used to hold the Hartsook chair in fundraising at the Lily Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University. Fact, he’s calling today from Bloomington. He’s a prolific author, researcher and presenter. If you go to the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy website, you will get bored scrolling down his list of books, papers, articles and presentations. Center, by the way, is C E N T R e. We have, ah, snooty English university there. Plymouth. He’s at Adrian Sergeant, and his last name is spelled like the military rank. Welcome, doctor, Professor. Edgy and Sergeant.

[00:03:58.14] spk_0:
Well, thanks.

[00:04:00.47] spk_2:
Pleasure. Welcome from from Bloomington, Indiana. How is it there?

[00:04:05.04] spk_4:
It’s a lovely spring day here, and

[00:04:07.43] spk_0:
I’m looking at into blue skies in sometime, which

[00:04:12.63] spk_2:
is not. Not always the case in the UK either.

[00:04:19.35] spk_0:
Uh, no, Certainly not in my part of the UK. Everything you hear about British rain and British weather is pretty much true. My region.

[00:04:23.61] spk_2:
I see. What region where his Plymouth

[00:04:26.71] spk_0:
Thomas is right down in the southwest tip of the country on its claim to fame, I suppose, for your audience is that it’s where the Pilgrim Fathers set sail from

[00:04:36.42] spk_4:
years ago. The Mayflower left from the steps of the barbeque in the area in the city. A plumber.

[00:04:54.89] spk_2:
Oh, excellent. Okay, that’s interesting. Oh, and then Plymouth. Then we have Plymouth Rock on the US side. So? So that was a very symmetric trip. I never knew that. Total symmetry ever

[00:04:56.16] spk_4:
visit. You can actually see the steps that

[00:05:04.10] spk_0:
the Pilgrim Fathers used Thio aboard the main fire before they set bail on that. That point Very epic journey.

[00:05:06.15] spk_2:
Yeah, of course. I I guess they called it Plymouth Rock Thio make it symmetric. So it’s not like it was named. It wasn’t named Plymouth Rock when they landed on it. I don’t want people to think that that’s what I was assuming that it was named Plymouth Rock when they landed. I don’t believe it was, um okay. Oh, very cool. Interesting. Thank you. Um, all right. Relationship fundraising. Adrian, it’s okay if I call you Adrian, right?

[00:05:29.41] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:05:37.64] spk_2:
Okay. I don’t get Doctor, you know, you’re not calling on me for questions or anything. So Dr a professor. Okay, Adrian, um, what’s the current state of this? I gather it’s not what it ought to be.

[00:05:59.63] spk_0:
No, sadly, the quality of relationship fundraising automatically in the States but around the world is not in a particularly happy space right now on the reason I say that is because he’s now got quite a lot of data on the pattern that dona retention and loyalty that we’re able to generate. And obviously the whole thrust of relationship fundraising is that you want to build longer term, mutually satisfying relationships and supported

[00:06:11.90] spk_2:
yes,

[00:06:25.50] spk_0:
and all the evidence that the moment is that it’s going in entirely the opposite direction we lose. Typically in the States, we lose around 70% of our supporters between the first and the second donation, and then probably around 30% of them year on year thereafter. Well, you try running a business.

[00:06:52.33] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ve had other guests on Quote that exact same statistic, and I don’t understand how this can be because there is so much talk about donor centric donor centrism and we have to listen to our donors and pay attention to their needs and put them in the center. Why Why? Why is this not working? There’s so much talk about it. Why are we not doing it?

[00:07:21.34] spk_0:
I think there are only two reasons for that. One is that often when I talk about loyalty and retention in the sense that kind of preaching to acquire a lot of fundraisers know what they should be doing or could be doing. But they don’t always necessarily get the stain level of investment from the board that they’re looking for on it could be oftentimes quite able to push that level of change through The second reason I think is on. We might talk more about this, but I think one of the problems we have in fundraising is that it’s one of the few professions, in fact, probably the only profession you enjoin

[00:07:38.08] spk_4:
without actually meeting to know anything. Good luck, you know, going to see a dentist

[00:08:03.91] spk_0:
to have studied or doctor that had studied or even employing a plumber who hasn’t studied. It’s important. I think, that fundraisers they’re exposed when they come into the profession to a body of knowledge. Then it’s agreed that this is what you need to know. If you’re going to be a successful, competent, calm razor on that, then organizations would employ people who had demonstrably, you know, got that body of knowledge because we don’t have that right now because we don’t value it. Oftentimes people end up in fundraising rolls where they’re really having to discover things that we already know.

[00:08:34.77] spk_2:
Yeah, now are we getting better? I mean, there are programs. There are degree programs and including at Plymouth University and the ones I can think of in the US at New York University and Columbia. Um, I think Fordham and those are only New York’s those ones. The ads that I get New York City. Those are only New York City. So there are more programs. Are we? Are we starting to recognize the value of a professional pressure, professionally trained fundraising force?

[00:08:45.43] spk_4:
I think

[00:08:46.92] spk_2:
for now

[00:08:47.34] spk_0:
that

[00:08:47.63] spk_2:
No, no, no, we’re not some

[00:09:17.61] spk_0:
of the some of the programs are varying quality. I mean, there are some good ones, obviously, that one come on by you. And there’s one of Mary’s in Minnesota and I could go on. But the sweet spot for fundraising education is where you got a blend delivery by practitioners and academics so that you get some of the emerging science of doing a behavior that impacts on what people Noah’s. Well, sadly, I think some programs are run entirely by practitioners. So you’re gonna get 1/2 of the equation there on what you’ll get, obviously, their you know, their background in their experience, which obviously has a place. But that’s not the same as being exposed to the modern research findings. That example on social psychology we’re gonna talk about that, could be informing what they do.

[00:09:38.26] spk_2:
Yeah, yeah, you end up with more of the conventional wisdom.

[00:10:02.69] spk_0:
Yeah, we’ve got a You know, I’ve mentioned we’ve got a problem with attention right now. What I didn’t say is that actually getting worse. I’ve just completed a very large scale study in England of six million boner records. We’ve looked at people recruited way back in 2000 and compared them with people recruited in 2010 on their substantively less loyal now. So not only we got very leaky bucket, but that bucket is getting weaker by the day.

[00:10:15.01] spk_2:
Okay, that’s Ah, that’s pretty positive motivation in enthusiastic motivation. Let’s Ah, let’s go out for a break. Adrian and I are gonna continue talking. Of course, we’ve got what What drives donor loyalty and how do you measure it? And the stages of the fundraising relationship? Stay with us.

[00:11:05.39] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As the CPS, for God’s sake. So we know what they do, right? Help with your nine nineties help with your audit. Um, we all are acquainted with what certified public accountants do. So do you need to make a change? Take a look at Wagner. You know, the, um, partner, You know, one of the partners who will be on the show Actually, next week, you each to him, um, started wegner-C.P.As dot com Talk to eat, see if their c p a firm can fit what you need from a c. P a wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:11:08.60] spk_2:
Adrian, let’s jump in and explore what what it is that we know will drive the donor loyalty that we’re trying to reverse the trend of,

[00:12:13.03] spk_0:
Well, the fact is really quite similar to any relationship that somebody might have with an organization. So there’s a lot of learning that we can take from the commercial world that we find it equally relevant to the non profit space on. My guess is that many of your listeners will have the car service recently or they stayed in a hotel or they used the service online. That probably they’ve been asked at some point, tell us what you think of the service has satisfied. Were you with the quality of that experience on these kind of satisfaction that is, in a sense, kind of quite ubiquitous. I think they re home. They’re Big Quintus is because there’s a huge link between her status side somebody with the court in service. There was the on their level of loyalty on people who are very status by six times more likely to come back and purchase again on average, people who just

[00:12:18.14] spk_4:
satisfied. So there’s, um, active behavioral difference on the

[00:12:30.59] spk_0:
extreme of the scale, right? So the goal needs to be for our organizations to get people to the point where they’re very satisfied, actually with the way they’re treated as a donor. Now, the last one I make here is that the multiple in our world

[00:12:43.22] spk_4:
isn’t as big as it is in the trading context. Trading world very satisfied, equates to six times more likely to come back again in

[00:12:59.29] spk_0:
our world doneness. You say they’re very satisfied that the cause your service provided by the fundraising team are twice as likely to be giving a year, then thin people who say they’re just satisfied. So it’s been a massive factor, but the multiple isn’t quite as big as it might be in other contexts.

[00:13:03.72] spk_2:
Okay, um, any any thoughts? Why, that is why I don’t How come we only get 1/3 of the the likelihood of returning the compared to the corporate world?

[00:13:39.26] spk_0:
Well, I think there’s a range of other factors that player in our space that also have an impact on loyalty and retention satisfactions an important one on one of the things I like to do it folks, that conference isn’t tease and then right in the satisfaction is a major driver of donor loyalty which in terms of which in turn, is a major driver of the value of the fundraising database. So how many people actually measure it? Then on if you’re lucky in a room of 200 people, you might get one hand

[00:13:43.69] spk_2:
goes on, then

[00:14:03.46] spk_0:
you are people well out of those folks you know who’s actually remunerated, how good they make their donuts feel on Duh. You won’t find any hands that go with that point that we don’t take that factor seriously enough. But then there are other things that creep in in our world the trust in the organization that some of your listeners might

[00:14:06.60] spk_4:
be thinking God havens talking about satisfaction with a court

[00:14:10.17] spk_0:
service provided by the fundraising team. But what about all that really great stuff we do with beneficiaries? Surely that’s gotta count for something

[00:14:15.32] spk_2:
in terms

[00:14:40.30] spk_0:
of retention and loyalty, right difference that we make Andi that’s true. But for most donors, unless they’re major donors, the mechanism for that it’s trust. If I’m a major donor and I’ve given you five million to put up a building, in a sense, I don’t need to trust you because I can see the building up. Right. But if I’ve given you $50 to help starving child, that I really have to trust that you say you do exactly what you told me you’re going to do with that resource.

[00:14:46.78] spk_2:
Eso

[00:14:47.42] spk_0:
trust for the vast majority of our donors is a big driving factor in terms of lost in the

[00:14:59.49] spk_2:
Okay. Okay, Um and, uh, you know, these sound very much like, not only, you know, relationship factors in a commercial sense, but also in a personal sense. They are our friends and our parents. No loved ones.

[00:15:33.80] spk_0:
Yeah, a lot of these relationship variables are just as relevant toe all human relationships. Originally, this study of things like satisfaction, trust and commitment all came out something called relationship marketing on what that was trying to do is to take ideas from human relationships on applying. In that case, thio the relationships that businesses have the customers on at the core of a ll. The relationship that we have of the emotions of satisfaction, commitment and trust.

[00:15:40.64] spk_2:
No. Anything you want to tease out about commitment? We spent little time with satisfaction and trust anything more. You want to say about commitment?

[00:15:50.89] spk_0:
Yeah, commitment is one of the really big drivers of loyalty on dhe. Usually that comes out stronger than thin. The others I’ve mentioned

[00:15:56.90] spk_2:
on

[00:16:37.79] spk_0:
what that is is a really burning passion to be the mission of the organization achieved. And you can imagine that people who are committed to finding a cure for breast cancer tend to support charities that do that and for extended periods of time. But that real passion to see the mission achieved is one of the really big drivers of loyalty and retention on. So the question, I suppose, then, is well, I had you build commitment. Then again, we know from research Quite a few things helped build commitment that wanted the risk. So if you’re running a shelter for homeless poke and I’m a donut, the organization and I believe that by canceling my gift today, somebody, somewhere is gonna be without a bed.

[00:16:42.95] spk_4:
Tonight I am a bunch

[00:17:16.68] spk_0:
more likely to continue to support that shelter s O. That element that I see a risk in canceling will help drive commitment. So too, will a personal connection. You know, if my life had been touched, my breast cancer, because I had lost a loved one to it. You can imagine that I’d be pretty fired up about finding a cure for that being committed to those sorts of organizations on then. Also, it worthy of note is something I call multiple engagements, and there’s a micro on a macro level to that. The macro level is that people who are donors and campaigners and service users and volunteers and

[00:17:24.21] spk_4:
and wait,

[00:17:25.49] spk_0:
let me get that and

[00:17:26.26] spk_2:
you

[00:17:52.26] spk_0:
get a whopping back, more loyalty and in the micro level is every time you have a two way interaction where there’s a little bit of cognition that takes place, maybe the organization asking your question, What would you like to receive? What do you think about this? How many times do you want to hear from last year? Do you want to get news? Whatever it might be every time you have that to a interaction with water, you get a little teeny, tiny bit more loyalty. And, of course, in the digital space, it’s now by easy toe have those little, many interactions with people, and it’s really worthwhile because ultimately it drives behavior.

[00:18:01.20] spk_2:
Excellent. Now there’s research supporting all this right

[00:18:05.44] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:06.45] spk_2:
I’ve

[00:18:26.34] spk_0:
bean doing work in the not profit space for the best part of 20 years. Now on. We’ve done large scale survey work with probably a couple 100,000 donors here in the States now getting on for two million donors in Europe, tracking the relationship between satisfaction, commitment, trust and then behaviors of interest. Like like you giving next year with assembly of upgrade on even actually leaving a bequest to the organization.

[00:18:39.14] spk_2:
What about that? That’s a significant How is that a significant factor?

[00:18:46.04] spk_0:
Well, one of the big drivers off the single biggest driver, I’d say, Really, the likelihood that somebody will leave a bequest. The nonprofit organization is how long they’ve been supporting

[00:18:57.92] spk_2:
it, Yes,

[00:19:13.50] spk_0:
on and typically find working with clients. I’ll say, you know, we’re gonna have a request program that is, forget all the complicated plan giving vehicles, but just right, asking somebody to remember a charity with a gift in their will or estate documents, then the single to get indicators of willingness to do that is how long people have been. Giving Onda anytime over three years actually is a pretty good indicator that that person cares about you is committed to the cause and therefore will at least give some consideration to that request. So surprise, Surprise. You know, commitment is a pretty big indicator of the likelihood of doing that.

[00:20:15.74] spk_2:
Okay, Yeah. I don’t know if you know that, but know this, but I do plan to giving fundraising consulting, and that’s where we’re always looking for the best potential bequest donors is who are the most committed loyal donors. And, uh, I didn’t know that a CE feu is three years. Could be could be a positive factor, But I’m always looking for Some organizations are easily, you know, decades older, sometimes sometimes even 100 years old. Couple of the universities have worked. So you know, if people have been giving 2030 years or 25 of the past 30 years, they’re, ah, enormously good potential donor for ah, for bequest or some of the other plan gifts to Yeah,

[00:20:39.88] spk_0:
Yeah, I I’d agree wholeheartedly with that it And it’s amazing how very few organizations even bothered to ask for a bequest on if they do. How many organizations think that somehow people will be inspired by the mechanics of death and dying some of the communications regenerate. Thank you. Just

[00:20:43.20] spk_4:
thank you. Make

[00:20:44.23] spk_0:
a will and

[00:20:45.06] spk_5:
you

[00:21:14.01] spk_0:
may change your will. And then the mechanics of the plan giving vehicles were actually You want somebody to give You want to inspire them with a vision of what the future could look like? That people are inherently more positive about the future on so good. Positive messages about what the world might look like that evoke a little bit of emotion are actually a lot more useful in that quest space than technical brochures about how you die miserable.

[00:21:24.01] spk_2:
Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that digression. But it’s it’s what I spend my time doing when I’m not when I’m not done. Non profit radio. Very interesting to going back to the There’s little micro engagements you get. You get a little uptick. You said of of, ah, commitment went with just these small engagement.

[00:22:15.18] spk_0:
Yeah. Um, if you if you would follow my knife on you woulda measure, let’s say satisfaction and commitment. And you sent out a little survey to a sample of your dignity. Our guarantee. If you tracked that sample of people over time, you’ll find that they’re a little, teeny, tiny, bit more loyal than the balance of the database. And that’s the administration of this little bit of cognition. You’ve got a communication from the Red Cross, Let’s say and you think that’s right. I got a relationship with the Red Cross. I’ll go back to them at all. Well, that’s a relationship with the American Cancer Society. Oh, that’s right. Every time you get that little bit of interaction, you get a little bit more loyalty questionnaire getting people to take other actions on your behalf that aren’t related to fundraising. Getting them to participate in an event that you’re doing online are tuning into a podcast or tell us what you think. All of those things are really smart in terms of loyalty. Because every time you have that interaction punch up just a little bit, how loyal these individuals are

[00:22:38.39] spk_2:
not standing. Love this. Okay, um, we need to be able to measure donor loyalty. How Ah, what are what are the metrics?

[00:22:50.00] spk_0:
Uh, well, one of the one of the big issues we’ve got in our sector right now is the metrics are, well, frankly wrong on to be even more blunt about it. I think a lot of our non profit boards need to be taken at Inspector.

[00:23:10.02] spk_2:
Is that a bare bottom spanking or they keep their pants. They keep their pants up. Is it Is a parrot a bare bottom spank with a paddle? Or is this a bare handed?

[00:23:15.19] spk_0:
I think it depends on the degree,

[00:23:21.48] spk_2:
a degree of readiness you want to achieve. Okay,

[00:23:31.37] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, why did I say that? Well, because oftentimes people who serve on non profit boards are actually quite bright. Oftentimes they had very successful business careers, and that’s one of the reasons that they’re there because they’re plugging in their advice as well. On it’s almost as if they part their bring that side the boardroom before they go through and into the meeting.

[00:23:43.69] spk_4:
Because in the

[00:24:42.74] spk_0:
commercial space, they know very well the measure customer lifetime value and they understand what that is. And I understand why it’s important they understand to the merits of measuring the things that drive customer lifetime value. So that’s why you get the satisfaction. So people measuring commitment and saw you walk through into the non profit boardroom and suddenly somehow all of that knowledge and understanding they had get forgot on. The only metrics we’re interested in is how much raised this part year or month. How many did you attract? Andi, you know, don’t start the metric that short term thinking doesn’t help you think about the lifetime value of your database and you And that was fundraising. That sub optimal. What you end up with this fundraising that is content to recruiting donors on, then lose 70% of them between the first and the second donation. That complete kind of focus on short term measures get people to the point where all they do is chase the short term measures. So we’re going to continue to try and find you Don’t.

[00:24:53.67] spk_2:
No, you don’t.

[00:24:55.12] spk_4:
We’re gonna continue

[00:25:18.04] spk_0:
to try and maximize how much money we could get those spokes. Actually, what we need to do is to take a step back and say, you know, maybe we should be measuring the things with Dr Longer Term or Lifetime Dahlia on beginning to reward our fundraising with the quality of the relationships that they build. Ronda van, you know, the dollars and cents that they raised yet today,

[00:25:22.31] spk_2:
okay.

[00:25:35.58] spk_0:
And immediately you do that, you get a huge change in culture because suddenly what people are interested in doing is building relationships, not having that sort of burn and turn way, haven’t

[00:25:44.95] spk_2:
you? Must have a lot of examples of what we should specifically be measuring in our our fundraisers?

[00:26:01.29] spk_0:
Well, I would if it were me. I would be using some of the same things that the commercial world have been using for 20 years, so I would measure satisfaction commitment on trust. Andi, you know there are measurement scales to doing that. It’s a little survey. You track how people feel

[00:26:22.94] spk_4:
on. If you do that, it’s the It’s the margin of those measures that makes the difference. Remember, I talked earlier about the percentage of people who were very satisfied, very satisfied. That’s the important bit. It’s the extremes of those scales and changes in that that make the difference on the

[00:27:24.83] spk_0:
good news is that even small improvements in loyalty in the here and now translate to a whopping improvements in the lifetime value of the fundraising database. So if I can improve the level of retention by 10% in the here and now, I can increase the last time value of hundreds in database by over 50%. Why? Because the effect compounds over time. So if you’ve got more donors left at the end of this year, you’re gonna have even more the following year. And even more than you know the year after that. For many organizations, that’s not the end of the story either, because most organizations lose money on donor acquisition just to go out and keep finding lots of donors to replace the one we lost that he knew a lot of money on. If you factor that into my equation, my little improvement in loyalty in the here and now of 10% would improve the lifetime, deliver hundreds in database for anything up to 100%. You

[00:27:25.02] spk_4:
can make

[00:27:25.54] spk_2:
a huge

[00:27:26.40] spk_5:
just

[00:27:28.03] spk_0:
by having little improvement in loyalty and hearing that.

[00:27:52.10] spk_2:
All right, um, I wonder if we can drill down to ah, more micro level in terms of the measurement of the performance of our our fundraising staff. Um, are there are there individual metrics and me in terms of how how they have moved donors from one stage to the other or, you know, in terms of the the actual performance of the fund raisers themselves or their metrics there.

[00:28:31.04] spk_0:
I think, I think, the answer, that question. We depend on the form of fundraising that you’re looking at on. So the metrics will be different depending on when it was dark. Don’t nail dot response or someone like Major Get Andi made. You get officers that remunerated to for the amount of money that they raised. But they’re also remunerated for the amount of time it’s been in front of clients. The member of proposals they made the number of recognition events there. Kendall. All of those good things. Um, but one of

[00:28:49.59] spk_4:
the things I think it can be shared a causal. The forms of fundraising is have a good do we make our donuts field today on measuring that that quality of the relationship, And that does come back again. The satisfaction commitment on dhe trust in the dark spot space. I would also be saying, you know, we should be taking decisions about

[00:28:55.77] spk_0:
investments on the basis off

[00:29:28.04] spk_4:
donor lifetime value on DDE. What that means in your complaining the issues that if we’re going to invest in an acquisition campaign we’re no gonna assess that campaign is a success simply because we bought in 200 donors on a lot of 100 donors because it may be that most people were recruited, won’t come back and give again right that we’ve gone with the other alternative campaign. We could have run, you know, we only recruited in 100 donors, but actually, most of those people stayed giving for the next five years. So taking

[00:29:53.24] spk_0:
longer term decisions based on that lifetime value, I think is really smart and even in small organizations that may behind a little difficult to do some of that matter. Maybe because they’re working on, even like a simple Excel database or something, they can still be looking at things like Retention Lee on beginning to shift the focus of the way in which the team is remunerated to the level of loyalty that’s engendered now. If you can also measure the things that drive loyalty, that’s great. But if you can’t, then the starting point for me is at least to get a sense of the health of that program and the health of relationships that just by you know, the numbers of people who were still actively engaged in court.

[00:30:24.90] spk_2:
Agent. I love the idea of measuring how donors feel of, um all right, we’re gonna come back. I need you to hang out for a couple of minutes while I do a little business. Don’t go anywhere, Adrian. Just Ah, just, uh, just keep listening.

[00:32:09.45] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software Quote We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with software, but they are always there to help walk me through it. End quote. That’s Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. More raves about their customer service. Don’t take it from me. Take it from the ticket from the customers. The user’s You got it. They have a free 60 day trial, which you will find on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take two and your planned giving relationships. Yes, the thing I like most about planned giving. It’s the relationships and being a consultant, I have a lot fewer of these donor relationships than I did in the ah back in the years when I was director of planned giving. But there are still some and and instead of having them and enjoying them personally. I sort of enjoy Maur a greater proportion of them by Karius Lee by coaching clients, helping them to build these plant giving donor and potential donor relationships. You know, these were talking about America’s elders, and they have stories that are touching and scary. Um, historical, Uh, you know, it’s a They have a different perspective because it’s different generation and you can you can just you can learn so much. They’re in a different phase of their life. They’re more relaxed. Mostly, um, it’s, uh, yeah, the relationships. It’s very touching, part of a plan giving program, and I go in even more detail. And I’ve got a story or two on the video, which you will find at tony-martignetti dot com about planned giving relationships. And that is Tony’s Take two. Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:35:00.59] spk_2:
I gotta send live listener love. I want to shout you out by city and state, but Sam here is having board the back end problems or something more talk about spanking or in the back end again. Um, we can’t see you by city and state, so I know that you’re out there New York, New York. ST Louis, Missouri Boston, Massachusetts New Bern, North Carolina, California I know there’s somebody in California listening, probably San Francisco, but I know there’s a California listener. Those are the live Listen, love people the loyal live a look that loyal, live listener live. Um, that I know her out there love, of course, to all the current live listeners and going abroad. I know there are listeners right now in Tokyo. Konnichiwa, I know we have listeners in China and Taiwan because we always do Ni Hao And I know that South Korea is checking in because it does week after week on Yo Hoss, I Oh, now, in case we are ah, in ah, in Mexico, we’ve had listeners in Mexico. Buenas today’s The Czech Republic occasionally does check in Dobre den Germany. We occasionally get Germany. Guten tag. Okay, I think that covers Ah, the most frequent live listeners. Sorry, we can’t do you No city and state as usual. We will get this back end problem slapped and slapped. Ah, and fixed by next week. Gotta send podcast pleasantries. Never forget the podcast listeners, Whatever it is you’re doing painting your house washing your dishes at whatever time you’re listening. Whatever activity, whatever device, over 10,000 of you so grateful pleasantries to the many podcast listeners and affiliate affections to our multiple multiple AM and FM stations throughout the country. Listeners from the Finger Lakes in New York to Salem, Oregon, and lots of states in between affiliate affections to our many affiliate listeners. Okay, Adrian. Sergeant, thank you so much for holding on. I have Thio have to acknowledge all our all our listeners of whatever ilk and variety they come. They all get a special shout out. So thank you for your patients. Um, we have ah, I love these measures, but we gotta move on. Let’s let’s talk about the different stages. You’ve identified stages of the donor relationship and there are different strategies appropriate for each. First just please just lay out the but the, um, the stages are, and then we’ll come back and revisit.

[00:35:37.96] spk_0:
Well, there’s an awareness stays where people become aware of the organization. For the first time on exploration plays, people begin to kind of extra what the relationship might might mean for them on. Then you’re kind of deeper into the relationship where there begins to be an element of commitment. And then eventually, over time, you know, some relationships will come to an end. Of course not. Everybody’s gonna continue giving for forever. But what we don’t know how you treat different points in that journey can make a very big difference. Unsurprisingly, how loyal?

[00:35:42.01] spk_2:
Yes, and especially knowing that these micro engagements make a difference in loyalty. I going back to that because I admire it so much. I love it. Um, okay, we have a few minutes we can spend, you know, on each of the stages. But help us with awareness what’s going on? And what should we be doing to give our donors what they’re seeking at that stage?

[00:36:12.32] spk_0:
Well, at this point, I suppose we’re talking about people who haven’t given for the organization before. So we’re talking about individuals that you’re trying to list it, too. Get them to make a contribution for the first

[00:36:19.24] spk_4:
time on one of the things I say about fundraising in

[00:36:44.67] spk_0:
generally that some of what we generate is is really bland on. If you want to get people to give, you want them to give reasonable sums of money have to make him feel something. Logic leap to conclusions. Emotion leads the action on fundraisers. Don’t want conclusions. Progress this far in large one people take action.

[00:36:47.53] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:36:48.02] spk_4:
And so you’ve

[00:37:14.00] spk_0:
got to get people to feel something you’re gonna stimulate them to give to your organization on dhe. Too many particular kind of Sunday letters in this country. You know, a bland three or four paragraphs might inspire somebody was on the cusp of making a gift. Could, you know that’s not gonna happen. You’ve got to generate materials that Helen emotional story

[00:37:18.46] spk_2:
and telling

[00:37:19.42] spk_0:
a stipulate that all important.

[00:37:22.33] spk_2:
Okay, okay. Emotion. Um, it’s very intuitive, but we still see a lot of ah, bad practice out there.

[00:38:10.51] spk_0:
Yeah, way. Still see a lot of those very bland one page letters signed by the chief executive, maybe even a picture of the chief executive when Actually, there’s a lot to say around the nature of the cause that could be compelling. I’ll give you one example of a pact that’s doing the rankings again. It’s been around for years, But Amnesty International, they sent out a flat pain attached to a piece of card with a picture of somebody whose eyes have been gouged at on the strap line effectively says, What you hold in your hand is an instrument of torture when you read to your horror that actually why this person’s eyes against that is because some somebody somewhere in the world used the pain on this youngster Thio get guided either. And it’s horrible when

[00:38:23.39] spk_4:
you when

[00:38:38.46] spk_0:
you read it and you’re outraged. And of course, the pen can also be a mechanism for doing something about it. On immediately, I get youto feel the anger or feel the compassion for that child I talked you into the court was you understand why what I do is important at that point. And are you more likely to respond and make a gift? Of course.

[00:38:47.75] spk_5:
On you know, there

[00:38:48.92] spk_0:
are lots of other examples we could talk

[00:38:50.30] spk_2:
about. That solution

[00:38:51.55] spk_0:
is absolutely critical to getting people to get for the first time.

[00:39:01.27] spk_2:
That’s a brilliant one. Well done. Ah, Amnesty Bravo. I give you

[00:39:29.87] spk_0:
one other from kidney research in the UK. Um, there was a cent a pack that told the story of a little girl who has kidney disease on very likely won’t won’t live for many years. On the letter that was contained with the picture of this little girl was actually a letter from her kidney. Two little Katie apologizing for the fact that you know the kidney is not able to do its job

[00:39:32.83] spk_2:
and heart

[00:39:33.64] spk_0:
rending little

[00:39:34.22] spk_5:
store.

[00:39:56.08] spk_0:
But, you know, when you read it, you’ve given a real strong connection to that little girl, and you feel the heartbreak that her parents must be going through and immediately you do that. If you’ve got kids yourself, you get that lump in your throat when you think my goodness, you know I have to do something about that because that’s horrible. I don’t want the little girls like Katie not be heard, not be able to have the operation in the care they need.

[00:40:01.96] spk_2:
My okay. Uh, very touching. Let’s go to AA exploration. What’s happening there?

[00:42:35.84] spk_0:
Well, at that point in the relationship that they’re kind of getting to know you stage that’s taking place. Andi, I noticed now that there are a number of charities playing very creatively with three D communications s o, you see people less in the U. S. But another part of the world Act on shopping malls and high streets with three D headsets so that people can experience what it’s like to be in a school in Botswana, what it’s like to be in a hospital in northern Nigeria or wherever it might be in the world. So you can sort of transport people away for a few moments to be able to see the work that’s being done on the ground. I think those things are quite powerful here in states of one international aid organization that does that great powerfully with trailers, and it’ll take a trailer to a community. Then you can go inside that trailer and you can walk around a school in the developing world, and you can see the country experiences of those kids having so thinking in a very creative Ryan back. Taking people inside the cause, I think is really important don’t necessarily need to involve the latest technology. Certainly video pictures that take you into that world, I think very important on The other thing I would say at this point, is that you might begin to creep some choice in to the kind of relationship that you’re having with individuals I used to. When I was teaching this 20 years ago, I’d say, Well, it’s awful People choice from day one. So you you allow people to choose whether they want a hard copy newsletter Oh, our digital newsletter or no newsletter, but appeals or whatever since realized that it’s smarter to wait just a little bit until people get into the relationship so that they can take smarter decisions about actually what they want. Because if you ask me from Day One Adrian, do you want a newsletter? Then a green is almost certainly gonna say no, right, because newsletters sound boring, and I’m probably not gonna want that. But if you wait four or five months into the relationship, how regular newsletter? And actually I’ve realized that this is really quite moving or you know, the information that there is compelling and uninterested. Then I’m all like it say no. Actually, I’ll continue to receive So giving people a little bit of choice of the communications is a smart thing to do in relationship fundraising

[00:42:41.70] spk_2:
ago.

[00:42:42.22] spk_4:
But I

[00:42:51.20] spk_0:
would begin to creep that Emma’s. The relationship begins to develop over time, and I’d allow people to identify the kinds of things they want in the frequency.

[00:43:12.38] spk_2:
Okay, we’re gonna go out for a break. I have to mention then that the people who attended your early programs did not get the got screwed it better. Better to come to a later Adrian Sergeant presentation or Webinar. If you were doing Webinars back then, probably not know. 20 years ago, there was no there was no web. But But you get checked the guy out now because he’s learned from his own his own research. All right,

[00:43:19.01] spk_0:
Probably by the time I know exactly what I’m talking.

[00:43:23.65] spk_2:
Yes, that’ll be brilliant. Okay, there’s gonna be a gonna be a nursing home. It’s gonna get great great pro bono advice from you. Okay, let’s go out for a break. Adri and I will talk about the next stage commitment. And then we also talk about next steps for you and for Adrian’s research. Stay with us.

[00:44:13.09] spk_3:
It’s time for our last break. Relationships. Do you want journalists to know you so that when news breaks, they call you for the expertise they know that you’ve got turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and get all the media to heart you right? That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. When the news breaks, you want to be called, or at least have your calls taken. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for relationship fundraising.

[00:44:48.41] spk_2:
Um, I won’t let you know that you can get this research at pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant is one of the funders of this research and thankfully, through their sponsorship, I met Adrian. And, uh, we’re getting this enormously wonderful value on today’s show. So thank you. Pursuant. Thank you, Adrian. Welcome, pleasure. All right, let’s go to Ah, now we just have, like, five or six minutes left. So we need to be a little efficient without time. The next stage commitment. What’s what’s happening there?

[00:45:02.81] spk_4:
Well, in commitment, you’re really beginning then to build up that strong relationship bond with the supporter.

[00:45:08.35] spk_0:
One of the things I would be doing much earlier on at the point

[00:45:11.52] spk_4:
of acquisition, actually to gather information about the sorts of things that the individual is interested in. If you’ve got a nonprofit that has four or five different kinds of program, or I think that is going on. I’d be asking them early on in the relationship which of those things they’re particularly interested in? Because if I do nothing

[00:45:27.25] spk_0:
else that I’m gonna make sure that when I’ve got something going on in one of those spaces that

[00:45:41.94] spk_4:
they’re interested in, that they know about it and have the opportunity reported being respectful of people’s interests, I think is a particularly kind of key thing and building that commitment.

[00:45:43.48] spk_2:
Okay. And that on bat comes back to some of what you were saying about giving people a choice.

[00:45:54.08] spk_4:
Yeah, if you understand why people are supporting the organization that you know that that’s a powerful thing you can then use to shake the communication where they’re gonna follow.

[00:46:16.68] spk_2:
Okay, By the way, I created a false sense of urgency, but not deliberately. When I said five or six minutes, I was alone. We have more like nine minutes left, so don’t you have an extra three minutes. So take a nap and ah, and then we’ll pick up after a three minute nap. No, um what else we got You can laugh openly, so I should hope you Please weigh. Need somebody to be laughing,

[00:46:22.77] spk_4:
thinking that my students would probably appreciate

[00:46:30.40] spk_2:
you pass that on to them, but do it at the end of the class. Do it at the very end of the class. Um,

[00:46:35.39] spk_4:
yeah.

[00:46:40.95] spk_2:
Okay, um, anymore. Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:53.48] spk_4:
If I pick up on on the nation of commitment, I think one of the other things that people possibly don’t realize that came through from my report is that the value that donors get from the

[00:47:06.36] spk_0:
relationship shifts a bit of the relationship deepens. So initially, when you’ve got that really powerful emotional packed communication that you’re not gonna use, people are really interested in the impact on the beneficiary write all about. Did you do what you said you were gonna do

[00:47:24.93] spk_4:
and have no impact on that child’s life? Well, as the relationship deepens, the donor becomes at least as much concerned about what impact on the child. I mean, for my sense of who I am

[00:47:29.88] spk_2:
on.

[00:47:35.07] spk_4:
I think you know what we’re talking about. Then it’s something that psychologists call identity, and I think that’s gonna be the next big thing in fundraising because

[00:47:42.94] spk_0:
it’s a little different from understanding the motives that people have for supporting it. The motives for supporting little Katie

[00:47:48.57] spk_4:
and her kidney operation example. Identity is a bit different. Instead

[00:47:50.59] spk_0:
of what motivated used to support the organization. That stage you’re asking, what are people saying about themselves when they give? So what kind of person are they saying they are when they support

[00:48:05.83] spk_2:
my non profit Adrian York? Let

[00:48:05.97] spk_4:
me understand that

[00:48:07.45] spk_0:
we can begin to shape our communication to make them feel good about that being that kind of

[00:48:48.80] spk_2:
Gen Shang, your colleague at the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy, C E N T R E was on was on non profit radio talking about something that this makes me think of, Um, she had research from public radio when people would call in to public radio to make a gift. They were greeted with something along the lines of thank you for being a kind supporter or a loyal supporter or a generous supporter, and she had different adjectives and and tested different adjectives against outcomes and particularly among women. The right adjectives would increase the the women’s giving through through these phone calls. Does that sound familiar to you?

[00:48:58.47] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And what you’re talking about there, of course, is one kind of identity. You’re talking about moral identity.

[00:49:04.53] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:49:11.25] spk_0:
so, you know, a lot of giving might be because I’m saying Adrian is a moral person. I might also

[00:49:11.83] spk_4:
be saying I’m a father. I’m a parent. I’m a cancer survivor. I’m a patriot. I’m

[00:49:21.38] spk_0:
a liberal I’ma environmentalist. I’ma, i’ma i’ma. And when you understand the identity that’s being articulated, then you make people feel good about that, right? Because if they’re gonna give, when they’re that kind of person, let’s Let’s tell them it’s good to be that kind of person and give him the kind of content that really reinforces that I don’t see it makes him feel good.

[00:49:37.85] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:49:38.31] spk_0:
Remember we said earlier in this conversation, I think one

[00:49:40.77] spk_4:
of the things we need to

[00:50:27.43] spk_0:
do moving forward if toe worry about hitting the need of our beneficiaries so sure that we could be at least is concerned with how good we made our donors feel today on one of the keys to unlocking that is to understand what they’re saying about themselves when they give to our organization and what that support of us really means to their sense of who they are. And I was saying that the relationship deepens people away to what that really means for them and who they are. On dhe, we start to be looking for a relationship. So the time to meet some of our higher order needs. And by that I mean connected personal growth, self fulfillment,

[00:50:28.51] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:50:52.96] spk_0:
what has my support, my five years support of your non profit organization, say about my personal growth and had connected? I am with people that are important to me where I am incomes of myself fulfill it. If we start to think about right, that’s where our longer term supporters are. Maybe we can help them make some of those reflections on feeling better about their support of our organization is actually where we communicate across more than any other sex. Er, we should really be concerned with maximizing how good we can make our supporters feel.

[00:51:11.60] spk_2:
Okay, Adrian, I I have to stop our our substance because we gotta move to next steps and we just have a couple of minutes left, and I want to get to both parts of this. So what can a non profit do with this wealth of information?

[00:51:39.28] spk_0:
Well, if you visit if they visit the pursuant website, they’ll be out of download a copy off. There are really two key volumes to the to the research. One is lessons from relationship marketing. One is lessons from social psychology on. They could trial some of those ideas for themselves and their fundraising. So that’s the most obvious thing that folk might be to do at the end of the court. Go to the website, have a report, anything there?

[00:51:50.51] spk_2:
Okay, and again that it’s pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising. That’s where you’ll find the four volumes. But Adrian, you’re recommending the 1st 2 as being most valuable. Sounds like,

[00:52:02.01] spk_0:
uh, that they’ve certainly covered most of material we talked about today,

[00:52:05.94] spk_4:
okay, and there’s

[00:52:09.87] spk_0:
a lot of other ideas from social psychology. The other thing that might like to do if they’re in an organization that of a reasonable size, we’re planning on doing a serious of field experiments over the next two years.

[00:52:20.70] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:52:37.59] spk_0:
we’ll work with a number of non profit partners on blitz there. Don’t find it too. 1/2 would continue to get the communications that they get now. The other half would get communications that bean tweaked in some way to help build up relations.

[00:52:39.91] spk_2:
OK, very quickly. What type of organization are you looking for?

[00:53:04.72] spk_0:
We’re looking for organizations that have groups have donors that are above 600 people s. So we’re not looking for organizations that are necessarily massive that we’re looking for. Organizations that have a reasonable number of donors in each of the segments they want to study on will be willing to work with a bearing the cost of doing those experiment.

[00:53:07.43] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:53:07.76] spk_0:
we’ll get the impact of that relationship approach on money raised on how good people feel.

[00:53:13.36] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, excellent. Getting to the feelings. Uh, what’s your email address? If people would like to submit their organization or talk to you more about being on in the research,

[00:53:31.63] spk_0:
it’s a green dot sergeant a d r i n dot s a r g e a n t at Plymouth y m o u t h don’t a c don’t you Kay?

[00:53:42.26] spk_2:
Excellent. Adrian, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much. So much valuable information thank you. Cheers.

[00:54:03.42] spk_3:
Next week, you’ll each tomb returns with how to select your auditor, and Jean Takagi will be with us in the studio. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Bye, Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producers.

[00:55:15.64] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scotts. Dine with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, huh?

Nonprofit Radio for February 7, 2020: Neurodiversity

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[00:00:14.44] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:00:16.49] spk_3:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the

[00:00:19.68] spk_2:
other 95%

[00:01:18.98] spk_3:
on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our fourth show in the Innovators. Siri’s neural diversity up to 30% of the workforce will be neuro divergent in the next 10 to 15 years. What is it and how can you get the competitive edge today by taking advantage of these especially talented workers skills, Peter Shankman returns to the show to share his quite personal explanation. Tony Stake to planned giving for the decade were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. It’s

[00:01:19.11] spk_2:
a pleasure

[00:02:17.54] spk_3:
to welcome back to the show. Peter Shankman. The New York Times has called him a rock star who knows everything about social media and then some. He’s a five time best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker, focusing on customer service and the new and emerging customer and neuro atypical economy. He’s recognized worldwide for radically new ways of thinking about the customer experience, social media, PR marketing, advertising and a DHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. As he checks his email on his on his watch on the new neuro diverse economy, he was the founder of Haro. Help! A reporter out. He leads Shank Mines, Breakthrough Network on online mastermind of thought leaders, business experts and change makers. Peter’s got a podcast faster than normal. It’s the number one podcast on a DHD focusing on the superpowers and gif ts of having a faster than normal brain. He’s a father, a two time Ironman triathlete in a Class B licensed skydiver. He’s at shankman dot com And at Peter Shankman. Welcome back to the show.

[00:02:27.53] spk_0:
Good to be back. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:38.14] spk_3:
Thank you. Pleasure. I’m glad you’re in the neighborhood is easy because you walk over on a Not a bad winter day. Not too cold. Yeah. Yeah. Um So

[00:02:38.85] spk_2:
you’re a

[00:02:47.83] spk_3:
diversity, I guess. Obviously the place to start is to define it. You have a whole podcast about it. What are we talking about? What fits under it? No. Diversity

[00:02:58.70] spk_0:
is any kind of faster brain, any kind of different. You know, growing up a DHD didn’t exist. 80 evening, Just, uh, in the public schools in New York. It was Sit down. You dropped in the glasses, Eat. Yeah, and I have had a very large dose of that, and it

[00:03:05.17] spk_6:
caused a lot

[00:03:13.11] spk_0:
of grief. You know, I had a school was not easy for me. And it wasn’t that I didn’t want to focus. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to pay attention. It wasn’t that I enjoyed acting out in class, but I did enjoy a glass. But, you know, it was best mates. Enjoyed it very much so. And what I

[00:03:18.58] spk_6:
realized. No, I’m looking back on it. That’s exactly

[00:04:45.00] spk_0:
it was I when I could make the kids laugh. That gave me a hit of dopamine, and that gave me a hit of adrenaline that give me a hit of serotonin and all those things that the newer, diverse brain, especially the DHD brain, doesn’t make enough of. Right. Um, when you’re a DHD, you have about 25% less of these chemicals than a normal regular speed person. And so your constant looking for ways, not intentionally. Just subconsciously you’re looking for ways to replenish those. Yeah, simply the rain in to get you know what? When when a regular person says Okay, I have I have math class. I don’t like math, but I’ll get through it, you know, they sit there and they say, Okay, I gotta learn this stuff and they look at it and they focus on it. They learn it. You know, when I do something I don’t like it. It requires a commitment and a set up to get it done. You know, I don’t, um things I don’t enjoy, but I have to do is part of life. I have to, uh, uh promote myself into a different way of being to get it done. It’s why I’ll never hold a meeting. Ah, where we sit down, right? None of my one of my meetings or sit down meetings. They are either stand up or walk around meetings. I people have called me the Aaron Sorkin of meetings and that that we will do a walk and talk for 30 minutes as opposed to, you know, Let’s go. Let’s go get a coffee and we’ll clear across town and coffee. That’s something we have to walk to get our meeting them, but it’s It’s better and more conductive and more conducive than sitting there in a room. You know, if I have to meet with people who I don’t have a choice and they’re gonna force me to sit down, you know, I’ll walk beforehand. I’ll take the, you know, take the stairs. I just don’t like that, You know, I walked over here, by the way, the west on highway to go three blocks

[00:05:05.84] spk_3:
that way, west

[00:05:06.46] spk_0:
way west to come back just to get a good 20 minute hit. Okay? Don’t mean I was

[00:05:10.89] spk_3:
wondering. I was starting to feel a little nervous that I was forced to

[00:05:16.14] spk_6:
sit for an hour. Now I got Yeah, we’re scared me, you know, in hours and hours. A

[00:05:19.41] spk_0:
bit much every interview that we doing on the podcast. We’ve had over 200 of them. We’ve had a CEO’s that Tony Robbins, Seth Godin, Keith Crouch. You found a doctor sign. Dave Needleman found a JetBlue Joe dissent in front of the Spartan race. The band shined down had countless really, really smart people. And each podcast is only 20 minutes because, well, a few day and so, you know, to to to sit someone like me sitting for an hour.

[00:05:43.56] spk_6:
You know, isn’t this really the worst thing? The world?

[00:05:45.21] spk_0:
But it’s it requires a commitment requires two requires a way to make the brain work for me.

[00:05:52.02] spk_3:
And so that was the walk.

[00:05:52.95] spk_6:
That was a lot

[00:05:53.41] spk_3:
of the preparation. Exactly. Thank you for doing it.

[00:05:55.98] spk_6:
And I have No, I

[00:06:52.74] spk_0:
have I have Ah, very, you know, sort of fundamental, um, things that I have to do every day to to to simply get myself through the day to have good days. You know, every morning has to start with exercise being a single dad. I can’t get the gym every day, have a pelt on bike, and I’m on that bike. On the days that my daughter, which is a little over half the week, um, I am on that bike, usually around 4 a.m. On my bike for an hour and 1/2. It’s obviously not to lose weight, you know, if it is, I’m doing something wrong, but it’s it’s to keep the brain focus. And I’ll do, you know, 2025 miles, and I will, you know, get off the bike. And I’m just I’m I’m perfectly wired. Right. I have a phenomenal way of of sort of approaching the world, which is a lot easier and better than if I didn’t do it, you know, and I sort of went in a little muddled a little, you know, not short myself. It it’s my form of medication. And

[00:06:55.39] spk_6:
I’m not anti

[00:06:58.07] spk_0:
met. I mean, I have a prescription. I take it every once in a while. I’m not on it today. You call

[00:07:00.14] spk_3:
it your expense account.

[00:07:01.37] spk_6:
Yeah. My expense account

[00:07:18.05] spk_0:
medication. When my assistant sits me down, says if you don’t get me these receipts and find the stuff, you have to get me. You know, the next today, you know you’re not gonna get paid. Your clients are competitive. Okay? I’ll sit down and I’ll figure out, uh, you know. Okay, let’s take this pill, sit down, get the work done. In focus of Other than that, I prefer to get my my medication in more natural ways. The exercises. Skydiving, public speaking. Things

[00:07:32.39] spk_3:
like you told psychology today that to write a book? If you If you have a writing project, you book a round trip flight Asia.

[00:08:23.61] spk_0:
Three of my last five trips have three minutes. Five books have been written entirely in airplanes. The last two. I booked a flight to Asia with no real reason. Euthanasia other than to write the book. Um, I actually wrote zombie loyalists. I sat down on the plane. Um, booked. It looks like the Asia it was doing two weeks haven’t read anything. I did all the research hadn’t relating. Booked a flight to Asia road chapters one through five in the flat out landed in Tokyo. Went to lounge to the shower. Have a cup of coffee. Get back on the same plane. Same seat two hours later. You’re not stay overnight, even stay the night. Wrote chapter 6 to 10 on the flight home. And, um, you know, went, uh, they got held up by, um, homeland Security for two hours, wondering why I was nature for 90 minutes and never actually immigration something that proved interesting, but it sure was running a bucket.

[00:08:25.53] spk_2:
Now I would say that That sounds to me like incredible focus.

[00:08:45.92] spk_0:
Well, the beauty of a DHD is that you can hyper focus. You can hyper focus. If you like to do something, you can sit down. And just if the situation is right and you’ve given yourself the right of it, sit down and you know I’ll put together a 1600 piece Lego Lego set in three hours. Yeah, I love doing it, but you know, if it’s something I don’t like doing, you have to. I have to make it work and it’s It’s not easy

[00:09:00.19] spk_3:
now. Five years ago you were You were with us was roughly five years. We’re talking about zombie loyalists. Um, uh, do you I gotta just focus back. Or do you still you still in Morton’s? I’m

[00:09:05.15] spk_6:
still martignetti Angeles way just

[00:09:13.73] spk_3:
played. We just played the show like, four or five weeks ago so listeners will know that it’s a story in Newark Airport. Yeah,

[00:09:47.83] spk_0:
so fan of Morton’s, you know, still go there quite frequently. It’s it’s phenomenal steaks. They still treat me very well. Um, I It’s funny over time that people still tell that story and and it’s still you know, not so much a customer is its customer experience. Not. It’s not PR. It’s not. Social media is custom experience, right? They were a little bit out of their way, and that’s not their job. The job isn’t going to take the airport. The job is that clear right? Have a great time. And so so So they’re still very good at that. Have they gotten bad at that? You know, they were bought by a company called Landry’s, and Landers owns them now. And

[00:09:52.37] spk_3:
Texas? Yeah, let’s take Texas

[00:09:54.64] spk_0:
unfortunate. Unfortunately, Andrews is still very, very, very big on customer experience, so it’s still a good place to

[00:10:39.04] spk_3:
go. Okay, let me take our first break. Wegner-C.P.As. You know, they go beyond the numbers. They’ve got videos. Do you have immigrant employees? They’ve got I nine tips. They’ve got high impact grant proposals. Also sexual harassment, awareness, video and others. You’ll find them at wegner-C.P.As dot com. Quick resource is and recorded events. Now let’s go back to neuro diversity. Peter Shankman checks is, uh, Texas. Take it. Work email. He does, uh, taking advantage of Ah, 32nd. I didn’t tell you was only 32nd break. Each break is doing well. The next one’s about a minute and 1/2. I

[00:10:41.29] spk_0:
could write a book,

[00:10:48.14] spk_3:
book your flight. All right. You could book the flight to write the book. Um, now you mentioned single Dad. Something has happened in the past five years. I’m sorry about

[00:10:51.18] spk_6:
that. I think things happen

[00:10:52.78] spk_3:
for a reason.

[00:11:05.33] spk_0:
The universe in its one told the way it should. I’m still very good friends of my ex. We have a great relationship, but I don’t have Thio. You know, they’re just certain times that you realize that that, um, the universe unfolds like Is that the way it should? And so I love being a single bad. My daughter is six and 1/2. Um, God help you if you forget the half. Um, she’s not just six, uh, give Aquino yesterday the Lego. And so when she comes home tonight, there are 15 new Lego sets.

[00:11:23.07] spk_3:
That school was a three hour keynote where

[00:11:27.52] spk_6:
it was 45 minutes. But it was very cool to hang out there

[00:11:29.40] spk_3:
and it couldn’t be done.

[00:12:51.12] spk_0:
I have. I am now the one of the first owners of the new international Space station Lego, which doesn’t hit stores. You’re worried. You’re very excited about that. So now it’s fun. It’s, uh, you know, I I love, try to explain. It was fun to watch her. Don’t explain what Daddy does for a living. Daddy talks to people, you know, It’s pretty much what I do. Yeah. On. You know how me since it in office of Daddy talks to people I like. I like my title better, but, you know, it’s it’s fun. It’s It does provides some interesting, uh, logistical, uh, intrigue. You know, I I know all single parents record. A lot of my travel is international. Um, I you know, I give speeches over the world and, you know, a couple of scholars and Asia. I gave a talk, um, on a Friday. And so I left Wednesday morning, uh, dropped my daughter off at school Wednesday morning. Went right to work. Um, booked a flight. Uh, are you boarded? A flight Wednesday at around 11 to Tokyo landed Thursday night at 7 p.m. Um, spoke. You know, went to those health, got some sleep, woke up, went to the gym, spoke at 9 a.m. Friday morning I was taken to the airport, got on a 2 p.m. Flight are four PM flight from Tokyo on Friday afternoon and landed in New York with time change at 4 p.m. Find infinite. And when I’m picking my daughter and you know, I was a zombie, but I didn’t miss a night with her. You know, it’s tough, but it’s a lot of fun. And, um, I couldn’t imagine, you know, doing anything

[00:13:05.30] spk_3:
Excellent. What else besides a DHD falls under no

[00:13:09.50] spk_6:
diversity in any kind

[00:13:39.03] spk_0:
of brain that is different than what we consider normal. So, you know, we’re looking at a Ph. D a d d. Autism executive function spending on the spectrum Asperger’s things like that and what we’re finding, and what studies have finding is that, um when creative people who are and almost everyone with a no diversion brain is creative, when these great people are given the ability to work in a way that works for them, right? Productivity goes to the roof

[00:13:40.18] spk_6:
dyslexia, just like she is

[00:13:46.11] spk_0:
included as well. And productivity goes through the roof. And, um, but you have to understand how people work, not everyone.

[00:13:50.14] spk_4:
Um uh

[00:14:12.08] spk_0:
works the same way, you know, And and, uh, the premise of we all have to get in at 9 a.m. And punch in and do that, you know, is really a thing of the past. And what companies are finding is if they allow their employees to, um, work the way that works for them. Company productivity goes to the roof. We’ve seen that countless times, over and over and over again. You know, you look at a company that has these rigid rules, which is a company that allows people to do work the way they want to and the people who do it the way they want to tend to the company, send a much more productive and generate more revenue unless cost.

[00:14:27.58] spk_3:
Okay. And this includes the newer, diverse community

[00:16:30.51] spk_0:
don’t know much about. You know, you’re looking at a workforce 25 to 30% want provide motivation. 25 to 30% of the workforce is gonna be no divers. And these are the people who are your creative right. These the people who are coming up with new ways to work new ideas, these the ones who are creating who are discovering all these sort of things. Good friend of mine is a PhD candidate at Harvard, and, um, she is very much engaged, and she, you know, they work in a lab where she she’s a PhD in the something with skin, huh? I’m totally spacing, not dermatology. I’m spacing. Basically, she she works with skin cells, and, um, you know, so she says a lot of time on her feet in a lab, you know, mixing skin cells, whatever does they dio? And then, um, she has to go back and analyze the data and what she does when she analyzed that data, she actually goes into a conference room that no one is in, and we’ll sit with her charts and her laptop in her, grafts on that and do the same thing that she could do at her desk. But her desk is an open floor plan. And even with headphones, she sees people at the corner of her eye walking around this and that and a distraction. And so she goes into a place where she can work and she will be 10 times productive and, you know, 1/3 of the time it would take her to do it or to other people to do it. So you know. And she explained that to her. Her, um, director, You know the labs. Look, look, just trust me this I work better this way. And sure enough, she does. You know, Andi, the her output is is very, very high. Um, but she has to be in that in that zone, you know, that’s my zona focuses an airplane. You know, it’s it’s or, you know, it’s also places where, um I’m able to get the dope mean that I need and then utilize it. So the thing about don’t mean is that once you get a huge hit of it, it doesn’t just go away. All right? You have to disperse it out over several hours has dissipate. So when I go to the drop zone upstate, I’ll take my my parachute, my rig, and I’ll do a jump and I land and I’ll throw my gear in the corner. Tony, re pack up some of you in the corner. Pull up my laptop, right. 10,000 words. Really? Oh, yeah, in like an hour. Yeah,

[00:16:36.85] spk_6:
I after, right after the jump. So you

[00:16:39.50] spk_3:
somewhere and then you know,

[00:16:40.82] spk_0:
I I land at the drop zone carrying my gear into the hangar. I throw in a corner, I pull out my laptop just right of the

[00:16:47.93] spk_3:
drops. Are you already at a building? And you start writing? Yeah,

[00:16:50.30] spk_0:
and I’m sitting up on the floor of my lifetime. I was right because, you know, that’s where I’m just so full of those chemicals. It’s like it’s like it’s like I’ve just done a lot of coke, You know it and it’s great. It’s healthy, a lot healthier than doing a lot of guys suppose for sure. But you know it. You don’t just get rid of it

[00:17:06.28] spk_6:
and all those chemicals in there, because the goal is to

[00:17:08.25] spk_0:
keep you alive. When you’re in the air, right, you’re don’t means you’re turning your gentle and they all are front and center when you’re jumping. Because for someone like me, you know, totally imagine myself without those chemicals.

[00:17:18.02] spk_6:
Okay, out the plane I gotta pull my parachute to look at the sun’s all shiny,

[00:18:18.71] spk_0:
you know? So so the chemicals are there to prevent that on, but when you land, they don’t just go away. You have to dissipate them of several hours. So for me, you know, that’s when I get somebody’s work done. That’s a great man. That’s great story works. It works really well, it’s Ah, it’s Ah, you know, you know where you are. Some people, it’s a run. I’ve done 5 10 mile runs and I’ll come back and be so wired that also dental work as well. Um, I’ll take a shower first, but, you know, it is it does. You’ve got to figure out what works for you and what works for employees, you know? And if you give your employees that ability to do that to to to work in such a way where they can, um, be most beneficial to themselves. You know, that’s the biggest thing we don’t seem to realize is that you know, this whole mentality of all work, work, work. Now, you know, no sleep work is bullshit. You know, if you don’t know how to take care of yourself first, right? If you’re not putting yourself first, if you’re not putting self care first, you know, if you have some of these entrepreneurs out there, you

[00:18:20.40] spk_6:
know, if you have, you know, work for 12 hours. Then you come home. We have to feed your kid if you only have four hours of sleep. Well, sleep two of them. And what you just told someone kill themselves. What is wrong with

[00:18:28.12] spk_0:
you? You gotta focus on yourself. You take care yourself. Self care is massive. Important exercise. Eat a goddamn vegetable. Everyone’s don’t write. Not everything has to come in a burger or a bun.

[00:18:37.93] spk_3:
Yeah, take care of yourself. Then you can

[00:18:41.30] spk_6:
take the oxygen mask their

[00:18:42.14] spk_3:
caregivers for auction parents. Yeah. All right. So how are we doing? Oh, I’m not. I’m too far from my Oh, I was worried about him. I’m too far. Okay, Um,

[00:18:54.34] spk_0:
no one’s ever told me I’m too soft. Uh, the letter.

[00:19:05.43] spk_3:
Let’s Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Beautiful segue way. So let’s talk about employers. Let’s start with the, um, the recruiting. It’s gotta be different than sitting for an interview for 30 or 40 minutes. But

[00:19:10.91] spk_0:
there’s a man who just told me I have to sit here for an hour,

[00:19:12.81] spk_6:
but I would argue that it does. It does have to be fun. Interview. Here’s the thing

[00:19:24.68] spk_0:
about what has to be different you know, you have to understand that the people you’re hiring again, they come from them. 50 years ago, any kind of disability was not talked about, right? I love that episode of Mad Men Where the guys a raging alcoholic and

[00:19:31.97] spk_6:
says, You know, you go away, we’ll tell people you’re on

[00:19:33.77] spk_0:
your own. You know, in a client leave for three months ago

[00:19:37.06] spk_6:
upstate you come back a new

[00:19:39.75] spk_0:
man, you know, telling people your client leave for three months. Three

[00:19:42.41] spk_6:
hysterical people half the shorts I own probably state

[00:19:49.75] spk_0:
that I’m a th day. My favorite shirt is a DHD in the in the font of a C D c h d. I’m on a highway to oh, squirrel, you know? And so it’s it’s it’s that waiter,

[00:19:56.45] spk_3:
huh? Wait, what?

[00:19:57.03] spk_0:
Highway to squirrel? Squirrel. And so, you know, I love that I love that premise and and the fact that we are sort of out there and talking about it and proud of how our brains work, you know? So

[00:20:08.74] spk_6:
before you can even start recruiting,

[00:20:36.83] spk_0:
you have to. As a company, you have to understand that you have to own that, you know, and make your workforce a place where the neuro diverse want to work because they have the opportunity to go anywhere now and, you know, much like it comes down. University. Essentially what back in the nineties and earlytwo thousands, diversity was was skin color, and then it became sexual orientation, you know, and and now it has to become no diversity.

[00:20:37.64] spk_3:
Is this not covered under the Americans disability? That it is now is

[00:22:07.53] spk_0:
not so you know it. Perhaps it will be, but the you know and I’m not a lawyer any like that. But the premise have, Doctor, there’s say that more often, but the premises is that you have to. I understand that if you’re hiring, you know, people need to work in a certain way, and if you are willing to give them the opportunity, they will impress you. Every single time. I had a I had a I was doing consulting gig for a company big fast food chain, didn’t know them, and, um, they were trying to figure out how to get had a cater to you, the New Rivers market and, you know, let’s go and let’s have lunch at your restaurants. We went into one of the restaurants 135 items on the menu in front over ads interspersed with commercials on a digital board. I want to blow my brains out, you know, walk into you. So I said, OK, let’s go. Someone’s on the West Coast. Let’s go somewhere else now and let’s walk down the street to in and out Burger, where the menu is hamburger cheeseburger fries shake, right? You see the Peacefulness here? The com That’s the one you know you have to understand. Sometimes the concept of choice is death sentence, right? And so how can you give your employees that which they need? I joke if I’m dating someone Are you know, said this summer my wife the time she never really understood it. But the premises, like, don’t. If we’re gonna go out for dinner and I ask you what you want, don’t

[00:22:10.92] spk_6:
say Oh, just pick something.

[00:22:22.63] spk_0:
Anything’s fine because you will wind up trying monkey brains. You know, I guarantee that you know, instead say, I’m feeling either Italian or Chinese. Great. You’ve just given me two options. I will pick one, right, But don’t Don’t tell me or whatever you want because that’s

[00:22:25.31] spk_3:
not walk up and down Ninth at

[00:22:26.63] spk_6:
45 minutes. Exactly.

[00:22:39.01] spk_0:
Zimbabwe. Exactly. So be aware of of how you’re working with these people talking to them how you were doing with them. You know, for instance, I have a lot of clients who are their famous

[00:22:41.26] spk_6:
catchphrase. I just get anyone

[00:22:58.25] spk_0:
can get it. No rush. Well, that’s that’s That’s not okay, because I will never get it, because you’ll be the most important thing on my plate until the next important thing. So I require every client to give me a deadline. I require my assistant to get me a deadline for every single thing I have to do. Actually, I need

[00:23:02.34] spk_6:
this Thursday, 3 p.m. Okay, if I know is there’s a big BM. I’m gonna get it done. If you tell me you can get it whenever, okay, I’ll get to it. And you’re

[00:23:05.32] spk_0:
never getting that thing. So you have to give me a deadline

[00:23:08.64] spk_3:
on part of this preparation is sensitizing the other employees in the in the office, in the in the organization as to what? What you expect.

[00:23:18.80] spk_6:
Yeah, you know, it’s not. It’s not like you need to widen

[00:23:44.23] spk_0:
your doors because you bring in a wheelchair, right? It’s very, very subtle. A lot of times, Um, I have a friend of mine who has a sign on on his because he’s standing there and he’s sitting in his desk and it’s an open floor plan. She has headphones on, and he has a sign that he puts on his back. Um, you may bother me. You may not bother me, right? And if it says you may not bother me, people know to email him or leave him alone. If it says you may bother me, he’s working on something he can’t be interrupted for because thing about that is that the way the brain works is that every time you get disrupted and that could be a something simple text or email or ding from your devices. Yeah, the second you get that ding, it takes roughly 24 minutes to get back into a level of what’s called deep work. Cal Cal Norris wrote a book called Deport 24 minutes, 24 minutes. So

[00:24:08.58] spk_6:
if you get two e mails a day or two miles an hour,

[00:24:16.95] spk_0:
you’re getting nothing done. E mean slack has destroyed more productivity than an atom bomb. It is amazing how many

[00:24:20.88] spk_6:
we love slack. We use a religiously well,

[00:24:22.53] spk_0:
your productivity is going down and down. You know, my ex ex

[00:24:27.15] spk_6:
wife uses that productivity tool. It’s not. I watched her productivity goto hell when she’s using it, because she she she sits there and she she gets a response. Delicate responded right away. Well, now she’s just

[00:24:37.14] spk_0:
completely lost the train of thought 40 was working on, and it’s not gonna come back. And

[00:24:40.84] spk_6:
next thing you know, it’s two hours later. It’s

[00:24:59.85] spk_0:
lunchtime, you know, again, that’s my yet. Ah, lot of times no diverse people are gonna put rules in the place that work for them. You know, I have meetings on one day a week and they’re walking meetings like I said, but I don’t have meetings every single day. You will never catch me for a random coffee, right? You’re not gonna have coffee at 2 p.m. On Wednesday because that means I have to leave. I have to get ready to leave around one. I have to leave my apartment. 1 15 I have in my office. I have to get their meat. You it to meet from 2 to 30 to 45 Walk back to my office, Sit back down, get to It’s

[00:25:18.05] spk_6:
not gonna happen, you know, instead of going to meet you, now let’s do 15

[00:25:18.83] spk_0:
miles will head home. I’ll head home. I’m not gonna be productive at home. And I would be in the office, so we’re not gonna be like that. You wanna meet

[00:25:23.42] spk_6:
with me? Let’s meet at six a.

[00:25:27.28] spk_0:
M. For coffee or spin class or run in the park or something like that. And I will

[00:25:30.07] spk_6:
do that

[00:26:07.35] spk_0:
with you on that. It’s actually wonderfully. Ah, Darwinist IQ is well in that Those rules. If you want to meet me, we will meet before 6 a.m. for coffee for a workout. I’ll even take you to cryotherapy. Um, the greatest thing about that is that it Dominus tickly eliminates 97% of the people who said they don’t have meetings with me because if they can’t get up, if it’s not worth it to them to get up it 5 a.m. For him to meet with me. Whatever chance I don’t work with him. And so it eliminates the majority of people out there, which is really coming in the day. I hate people. An

[00:26:08.82] spk_2:
enormous part of

[00:26:10.89] spk_6:
less People have to deal with them.

[00:26:17.99] spk_3:
That’s why they’re spitting them to death and offering quite exactly cryotherapy on your terms.

[00:26:20.59] spk_2:
So a lot. So I understand.

[00:26:22.04] spk_3:
A lot of it is You have to recognize for yourself what helps

[00:26:25.70] spk_6:
is the thing you ever do you understand what works for you, right? I

[00:27:05.54] spk_0:
mean, you know, I rarely drink. I’m not gonna say I never drink occasionally, everybody, it’s very rare because I don’t have one drink. You know, I have six drinks because they’re there, and it’s very easy not to have that first drink. It’s after the first drink, but it’s very hard to sing the second time. Yeah, and so I joke. I have two speeds and only to speed. They have NAMA stay and I’ll cut a bitch and there’s no middle ground there. There’s no I don’t have a middle ground, you know You’re not going to see me. Okay, I’ll have What would Leo McGarry say in the West Wing is I don’t understand people who leave wine. You have a glass and leave half a glass. One of table. What’s wrong with him, right? Why wouldn’t you want that all the time? And it’s hundreds of true. And so what I find is that it’s much easier for me to have a club soda and not have that first drink. Um, because also, I have a drink and I have five drinks. Then

[00:27:17.15] spk_6:
I go home. I’m not drunk.

[00:27:18.84] spk_0:
I’m not, you know, slurring my words. I’m not, uh, pillaging villages. Really that. But I go to bed a little later than I want to. I wake up a little later. I might not have time for the gym when I’m trying to work out. Then my day is less than you know. And that’s why I get into that system in the first place.

[00:27:34.04] spk_3:
So, uh, let’s take our like, our second break, which is, uh, about a minute and 1/2.

[00:27:39.27] spk_6:
I’m getting water. Water?

[00:29:30.84] spk_3:
Yes, absolutely. Um, quote We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain software. It’s rare to encounter a problem with it, but they are always there to help walk. Be through it. Well, end quote I paraphrase a couple of words, but nothing substantive, certainly from Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. More raves about the customer service at Cougar Mountain Accounting Software. They have a free 60 day trial for listeners. It’s on the listener landing page, which is at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant now. Time for Tony’s Take Two. Your Decade Plan for planned giving. I put a good amount of thought into if, where you could be by 2029 if you start your plans giving fundraising program in 2020. Don’t just think of a year long plan. Think of the decade. In 10 years you’ll be You’ll have an enormous amount of people in your recognition society, which means you’ve got enormous amount of planned GIF ts. You’ll be recognizing revenue from the from the program. You’ll be offering a lot of different vehicles way beyond just charitable bequests, which is a place to start. Um, you might even by that time have either have or have the evidence that you should have a full time director of planned giving you can be. You could be very far along and planned giving fundraising by 2029 if you start in 2020 and I lay out a decade long plan in the video, which is your That’s it. You’re decade plan for planned giving, and it is at Tony’s take to know that is Tony’s take to the video. Is that tony-martignetti dot com? Now let’s go back to Nora. Diversity

[00:29:32.99] spk_0:
the pill because I have some

[00:29:34.53] spk_2:
I’m feeling. No, you said you make it sound. Not so bad I joined

[00:29:46.79] spk_3:
the club, Our fourth entry in The Innovators, Siri’s with Peter Shankman about emerging neural divergent economies on the workforce. Um,

[00:29:49.32] spk_2:
yeah, no, I mean when you have it

[00:29:50.43] spk_3:
under management and you and you have figured out what?

[00:29:53.50] spk_6:
Well, that’s it. You’re out. There was a scientist

[00:30:03.92] spk_0:
once who came out, but don’t don’t. Scientists came up with this term of somebody call type type T and there’s tape, Tea party, you know, you you take These are type B’s in the tape tee, and then he divided that in taped a pilot of type B negative type B

[00:30:11.87] spk_6:
positive. Basically type tease

[00:30:23.70] spk_0:
the ones who take risks. They like to you know, they’re a DHD. Their brains produce less mon ami inhibitors than no people motto. Motto mean mono amine ox. Today’s inhibitors Okay, I type probably totally butchered, butchered that term. But again, that’s why I’m not a doctor.

[00:30:30.06] spk_6:
So the top, that’s the stuff that makes us

[00:33:00.44] spk_0:
don’t mean right. And if you have, people like me have 25% less of them. That’s why we do things to you know, that’s what we got. That’s why we did. But there’s two into this scientist, uh, theorized that there were two types of type t type B positive and type B negative in Tempe. Positive people who get that I don’t mean and the adrenaline that search on those modeling oxidase inhibitors in positive ways. Right? So I speak publicly, you know, be on stage in front of 10,000 people. I’m high as a kite. Its greatest feeling in the world. Ah, skydiving exercise. Whatever. The guest of big, there are people who get those negative ways. Um, you know, crime, uh, drugs, whatever. And you know that how people you know, that there’s an estimation that 75% or higher number of people in prison number of males in prison are undiagnosed. 80 80 80. You know, it makes perfect sense, right? You’re You’re bored. You’re not excited. You need something So let’s, you know, get steal this car through bad bag, right? And so So it comes down to sort of what you can learn about yourself. You know, looking back on my schooling and realizing I mean, I I teach. Sometimes the teachers would talk about me and they couldn’t believed they were talking about the same kid because my English teacher would have nothing but rave reviews about how amazing I wasn’t how much how attended. I wasn’t how focused I wasn’t how much I look, how great of a writer I was. Mad teachers be like It’s not the same kid. He’s nothing but a distraction. He causes he, you know it needs to sit. Tony bugs the whole class. He doesn’t, you know. And it was like they were literally that. How are you talking about the same child? Campy. And it’s true, because in English, I was, you know, put put, uh, God, what’s the book? Black Boy by Richard Wright. You to read the freshman in high school, and I was just enthralled with that book I read, apparently every year. Now it’s such an amazing book, and you know, I remember reading, getting to Shakespeare and and pirate and just, you know, being they have to have to tap me on the shoulder to get me out of class because my next class, because I just be so enthralled. But I was sitting in math class, you know, I learned that you could sink your watch to the the Bell system. And so, you know, I’d be in math class. And then just for fun, just to mess with a teacher, I’d go 54321 and the Bellagio off right at a job, drove the teacher

[00:33:11.47] spk_6:
crazy. But I love

[00:33:34.06] spk_0:
that it comes down to understanding that some things you love, some things you don’t How do you change your brain so that the things you don’t love you can still do well. And that’s what um, uh, employers. I need to learn as well. Yeah, that not everything their employees do their employees and love. So how can you give them an environment that benefits them with stuff that they don’t love? They could still get through and do well

[00:33:49.62] spk_3:
first. Thank you for talking directly to the listeners who are neural diverse. More importantly, you’re motivating the individuals to listen. You want to talk about the organization,

[00:34:11.07] spk_0:
listeners. Kids are important as well, because right now they’re our listeners. Your show Who’s Children have just been diagnosed, like today or last week or whatever with a d d or a D h d. And they’re freaking out. The parents are freaking out more than the kids. And so to the parents, I tell you right now that your kid is not broken, pardon my French kids fucking awesome and and And your kid is gonna change the world. And you know, you don’t sit there and say, Oh my God, he’s not like everyone else. Be thankful he’s not like everyone else. Because if I was like everyone else, we wouldn’t be sitting here. I wouldn’t be on this on your show. I’d be working in an office somewhere and pretty miserable,

[00:34:25.86] spk_3:
Miserable. There wouldn’t be. Would not have been a hard right.

[00:34:27.73] spk_0:
No, that wouldn’t be Harold or anything like that. So, you know, I am so thankful every day on it again, growing up, a lot of it sucks because we didn’t know what it was. You know? I remember my dad.

[00:34:37.16] spk_6:
Why can’t you just listen in. Glad who knew? You know, I couldn’t. And and fortunately,

[00:34:49.03] spk_0:
we have much more knowledge now of you know what goes on with this button? Yeah. Thio To be able to have a different brand. I’m thankful for that every single day.

[00:35:06.74] spk_3:
So let’s talk organizationally. What can we do? Two way talk some about the preparation but the interviewing getting encouraging, people Thio come on. And proving to the individual that this is a place where you want to work

[00:35:47.34] spk_0:
Explain that you’re you’re company. Everyone says their companies different. Show that your company is different. You know, they’re some companies have completely outlawed meetings, right? Completely banned sitting in the conference room there cos a band power point. And I think that’s pretty the best thing you could possibly do, right? Who the hell wants to sit in the meeting for two hours looking at slide after slide and listen to a person explain those slides. You know, I’d rather jump out the window. So what can you do for your, um, for your employees to show not just tell, but to show that it’s a positive place to work. Right. Um, are you gonna let your

[00:35:48.57] spk_6:
and Santos about Oh, you’re going from home. Well, that’s great,

[00:35:51.27] spk_0:
But are you gonna give them the tools to do that right? It’s one

[00:35:54.95] spk_6:
thing to say Sure work from home. But home might not be the best

[00:36:15.13] spk_0:
place for people, either. I have a friend of mine who loves working. He lives in California and he loves working from parks, right? He’ll go like a national park and he’ll bring. He’ll have a wireless connection satellite, whatever Internet and, uh, you know, climb a mountain. And I said, the top of mountains work for, like, eight hours. Expect other people to go upto. You know, what’s

[00:36:17.16] spk_6:
the meaning of life? Nothing. But he said,

[00:36:18.60] spk_0:
their legs crossed with his laptop, getting work done, breathing fresh air. And he

[00:36:26.44] spk_6:
loves it. He’s so ridiculously productive, right? Enormously productive. Unbelievable. Yeah, he’s he’s returning. And he’s creative creative director Chris China, and he’s returning art

[00:36:31.45] spk_0:
artwork to the client that you know would blow you away. And he’s doing it because he’s in his his happy place.

[00:36:46.89] spk_3:
Yeah, um, and then and keeping people too, You know, you’ve shown them at the at the outset that this is a place that they want to be, um,

[00:36:47.45] spk_6:
keeping people in them. It’s important you have to be able to think about

[00:37:01.21] spk_0:
no diversity is that it’s fluid, right? It’s not If you try to grab on to it, you know, like a newtonian fluid that if you put your hand on very slowly, you can movie, handle the bottom. If you hit it really hard, you can’t even get 1/4 inch down, right? Basically, take some water and corn starch and mix them up, and you can create non Newtonian fluids. And the A

[00:37:11.78] spk_6:
D. H. D.

[00:37:12.19] spk_0:
And new diversity is similar in that if you

[00:37:14.08] spk_6:
try to hold on

[00:37:42.29] spk_0:
to it, you try to position them in one path where they’re not allowed to move. You’re gonna find resistance, right? But if you let it flow through you and and you understand, that’s a fluid system that does have to move, and that change has to happen and you have to be able to adapt to that, you’ll be a lot better. Offices, organization, you know, they’re gonna They’re gonna be times where, um, there are days when I wake up and no amount of exercise is going to get my focus on track for whatever reason, right, mate, And sleep well, whatever. But I’m not. I’m just not gonna be productive. And I know that. And I will tell Megan I’m like, Okay, you know what? I’m having a day Cancel my meetings. I’m going off the drop zone or I’m going swimming on workout.

[00:37:55.88] spk_3:
It’s that last minute.

[00:37:57.02] spk_6:
Yeah, and And I’ll feel it. I wake up thinking about

[00:37:59.93] spk_0:
some things off today, and

[00:38:02.16] spk_6:
that’s an end. It doesn’t happen. Rarely happens. But it does happen. Right? Um, it happened

[00:38:06.33] spk_0:
like, I think less and I was like, October. Um, and

[00:38:09.01] spk_6:
I felt that I just woke up like you know what? I

[00:38:17.46] spk_0:
got nothing. I got nothing here. Megan, I have a meeting. 11. Do me a favor and cancel it. I’m going to the gym. Like what? It was like I don’t need a day. So I went to the gym. I did like

[00:38:20.47] spk_3:
she knows you by now.

[00:38:21.22] spk_6:
Yeah, I did like 10,000

[00:38:36.45] spk_0:
meter swim. Ah, I did like half an hour on the rower. You know, I did the bike, and I just That was what I could do right. And so, as an employer, you need to understand that there are gonna be times when you’re, you know, you call the mental health days in a mental health day. Well, that’s real, you know, and a Zen employer, you have to be flexible enough to allow for that. And the

[00:38:43.91] spk_6:
nice thing is, is

[00:38:52.07] spk_0:
that when you do allow for it, you’ll find that your employees not, um they don’t take advantage of you. They might take advantage of the health day every once in a while and

[00:38:55.30] spk_6:
say no, any today I’ll take a day.

[00:39:05.97] spk_0:
But when you give that more studies and more studies have shown that when you give them the ability to make their own choices right, they’re not gonna screw you more often than not, the non chemistry

[00:39:08.44] spk_3:
something you alluded to is, you know, like the typical career path they your neuro diverse, may not necessarily want to be promoted,

[00:39:21.62] spk_0:
right. There are people who are in positions that they’re really great and they want to stay there. Um, you

[00:39:22.06] spk_6:
know, it’s something else

[00:39:32.00] spk_0:
to consider for millions of years of evolution. Millions years, we hunted, and that’s how we got our food and we would run after a saber toothed tiger. And if we killed it, we’d eat. And if we didn’t kill it, we wouldn’t eat. We’d starve. And so we became very adept at short bursts of energy and short bursts of focus Right where we kill this tiger. And then

[00:39:47.20] spk_6:
we have, like, three or four days just,

[00:39:48.13] spk_0:
you know, eat. And she’ll whenever and there’s the food started to disappear Go battle. It would hunt

[00:39:53.42] spk_6:
again. Then we discovered

[00:39:57.29] spk_0:
agriculture. But 1100 years ago, and we just get the hell

[00:39:58.12] spk_6:
out 100

[00:40:11.87] spk_0:
years in the history of our existence is, you know, less than the width of a period on a full novel. And so, if you have to imagine, if you’re thinking about, um why why are we just gonna go?

[00:40:13.48] spk_6:
Why are we discovering it now? Are we seeing so

[00:41:10.30] spk_0:
much more of it now? Because you know what to look for. It’s always been there looking Einstein. Divinci Minutes, people, classic eighties. You no question about it. Um what? We understand what to look for now, you know, And in the course of human history were so far, are so so just at the nano pubescent era. We haven’t even started. You know, if you go down the line of of human growth, we’re just now barely beginning to crack the surfaces to what’s out there. And so, you know, if you well, we’ve had a 100 years of farming that’s nothing. In the in the history of the grand scheme of time, there’s nothing. And so you’re taking millions of people who grew their entire lineage, You know, that the entire human race was based on going out hunting, farming, you know, hunting. Then all of

[00:41:11.11] spk_6:
a sudden, the last second you change. Okay, Don’t hunt. Now sit down and farm.

[00:41:39.01] spk_0:
Well, you know, we’re gonna get fat, and we have a lot of energy that we need to dispel some other way, and we’re not going to able to do that. Lookit, lookit, history. Look. Att. The Romans look at the Europe in the 12th century, the only people who are fat with the kings because everyone else was working and they were out there. No hunting and gathering of it, you know, And then over time, what we’re seeing now is, you know, it’s so much the

[00:41:42.59] spk_6:
other thing was also Is

[00:42:00.28] spk_0:
that the rise of of bad for us? Food flat. But a word is playoff proliferating. Um, you don’t see that in ah, in countries that have less fast food options.

[00:42:01.44] spk_3:
Although we’ve us has done a good

[00:42:25.06] spk_0:
job, We explored everywhere. Yeah, bad food. You see all the stomachs growing in other countries as well. But, you know, we didn’t have that 1000 years ago. Either we had healthy. You know, I joked that I tried to eat food that if my grandmother back when she was, like, six years old in 1980 whatever. If she wouldn’t have recognized his food, I’ll try not to eat it right. You know, she look a cheating with, you know, but she understands the potato is she understands what? You know Broccoli. Is

[00:42:34.15] spk_3:
that it? Michael Pollan. Did you steal that from? You have only eat foods that your grandmother would recognize.

[00:42:42.50] spk_6:
I know where I got it. Had at first been saying that for years that the two things I say is that and then shop the edges of the supermarket because the outside of the supermarkets world healthy food is the crab is on the inside, right?

[00:42:48.41] spk_2:
What? We still have. All

[00:42:49.25] spk_3:
right. Let me take our last break.

[00:42:50.64] spk_6:
Well, I’m faster than normal. That’s why. That’s why. Good. That’s what happened.

[00:42:57.96] spk_3:
Um, I’m worried. About what? I should let you go. I mean, I

[00:42:59.60] spk_6:
know I’m just one of them entering tax. I

[00:43:57.80] spk_3:
don’t want you to leave. All right. Time last break turned to communications. Did you ever wonder how some nonprofits always get mentioned in the news and it pisses you off? It’s because they well, you could You could use Harrow. You could actually lose Harrow. Help a reporter out. You could also, uh, try to build long term relationships with the journalists that matter to you and turn to can help you do that as well. Their former journalists, including from the Chronicle of Philanthropy, our community. So to build a long term sort of sustaining relationships so that you get great coverage when it matters. When the news breaks and you want to be quoted, you’re the expert. That’s the kind of relationship you want there, a turn hyphen to dot CEO, and we do have butt loads. More time for new road diversity. And Peter Shankman, uh, I’m gonna throw it to you for, you know what else? What else would you like? Nonprofit organizations to know about neural diversity. We certainly talked About what? What the community brings

[00:44:06.90] spk_6:
one of the cool things look

[00:44:15.87] spk_0:
spring about. No diversity, I think, is that we tend to come up with ridiculously brilliant ideas that when you

[00:44:17.37] spk_2:
hear them

[00:44:27.09] spk_0:
for the first time, you might not think of as brilliant. You might think that, you know, we just told you that we’re a spotted owl. Um, but that’s the fun of it is our brains work a little differently and we think, sort of not outside the box. You think outside the park really were in an entirely different world? And one of things that I’ve seen happen many a time is You know, I remember this used to happen all the time with my ex

[00:44:41.48] spk_6:
wife. I I had this great idea, and

[00:44:45.49] spk_0:
you get Okay, here we go, you know, and

[00:44:46.28] spk_6:
she wasn’t angry. Just like Okay, where is this

[00:44:49.66] spk_0:
gonna wind us up? You know, we’re gonna be in Thailand by tomorrow. How do you know what’s gonna happen? Ideas before?

[00:44:53.92] spk_6:
Yeah, and and but the thing is Is

[00:45:21.78] spk_0:
that you know, that concept of great ideas led me to start Harrow, right? It it led me to start a podcast. Everything I’ve done has come from that, because when you’re when you’re near a diverse, you’re so used to getting t getting those weird looking people that you don’t give a shit anymore. And so you have 99.9% of brilliant ideas in this world have never actually been implemented because people are afraid of whether it was gonna pay. It

[00:45:23.19] spk_6:
kills me, right? Like the highway is littered

[00:45:38.16] spk_0:
with brilliant ideas that never saw the light of day because someone was afraid of what people might think When you’re a DHD or no divers, you spent your life with people looking at you and mocking you and talking. So you

[00:45:40.04] spk_6:
just don’t give a shit anymore, so I’ll get out there. Hey, here’s a crazy It may work. It may not have had just many failures have had successes,

[00:45:45.28] spk_0:
but when I’ve had the successes, they’ve really blown up.

[00:46:07.36] spk_3:
Okay, great creativity. And, uh, there’s there’s a very good article that I read preparing from Harvard Business Review it Zo listeners, you might be interested. It’s a May June 2017 issue of Harvard Business Review on I Think It’s called Neuro Diversity. And then there’s you also find Peter Shankman and interviewed by a psychology today. You were profiled,

[00:46:12.75] spk_6:
you know. But that’s the funny thing. Is some problem Mexico today and then I’m also

[00:46:18.98] spk_0:
profiled by, um, by traffic magazine. Right.

[00:46:21.01] spk_6:
And if you look at me, you know damn well that I’m not profit by Travel magazine for like winning traffic runs right? I’m profile, but Athlete magazine is

[00:46:32.88] spk_0:
one of the funniest people in traffic. Because I wrote it, I created a video that was based on the conversations I had with an ex girlfriend who could never understand why I could never go out and have brunch or stay out late on a Saturday night is always had an early ride or late, you know, long run or whatever, and I made

[00:46:44.49] spk_6:
this video and every single traffic related to it and everything. Oh my God, I always think that stuff well, I create

[00:46:50.55] spk_0:
the video because I just Why not? When you’re near a diverse, that’s why not is your favorite word, you know,

[00:46:55.73] spk_6:
why not Let’s try it. Let’s see what happens. You got me in trouble a lot. Growing up,

[00:47:09.60] spk_0:
I, um Yeah, I will never forget. Um, my parents coming home and finding that I had shaved. They’re 11 year old tabby cats. And

[00:47:22.23] spk_6:
what the hell Why would you do I want to see what happened. Nothing good happens when you shave the cat. I want to see what happened. Head to toe ball. That cat was not because I used a trimmer into the cat was drugs because, you know, the feels good. He feels he felt hated

[00:47:35.18] spk_0:
my mom, and that was not very happy. But, you know, growing up once I got what I grew up, everything became the concept of trying something to see what happens is actually very, very beneficial.

[00:47:39.38] spk_3:
Why not? I mean, definitely not profit. I mean, any organization we’re talking about profit could certainly benefit from some thinking around the

[00:47:46.34] spk_0:
question about it. You know

[00:47:47.05] spk_6:
what’s the worst could happen. It fails. Try something else.

[00:47:48.87] spk_2:
Yeah, way. We’ve talked about that on the show.

[00:47:50.60] spk_3:
We’ve had people talk about testing, testing for giving Tuesday, testing your fundraising messages, testing your email, testing other communication channels. That’s that’s what we’re talking about. Just that the

[00:48:03.45] spk_2:
ideas may be a little further out.

[00:48:33.25] spk_0:
The worst fear for me is not failure. It’s it’s not having not having tried something. I When I first got my first Alexa, I had this great idea. My kid was like, I think three years old, I had this great idea about, um I wanted to build an app that would wouldn’t allow election work unless it heard the word, please. So I didn’t want my daughter thinking that she could just talk to machines without in loser manner and and so

[00:48:34.59] spk_6:
I I should do this one day. I did. Really? Yeah. Uh, someone did it, and it exists now it’s a damn apples. Piss me off. You know, it’s like, Why do you Why

[00:48:49.62] spk_0:
d the a The only, um, the biggest risk it’s been said is not taking one, you know, And that’s it. So

[00:48:50.72] spk_2:
sure, of course. You know, you see that

[00:48:52.16] spk_3:
on social media all the time. I spent most of my time when I’m in social on Twitter, and, uh, you know,

[00:48:57.51] spk_6:
there’s over died years ago. There’s always, uh oh, yeah,

[00:48:59.90] spk_0:
way. We all know why it’s still alive. It’s only there’s only one reason why it’s alive in his orange and it should be dead. Twitter should have died about four years ago. There’s literally sze I find such a little value in and I’m still on it and you have to be. But I find such little value in it now. Such a bummer. It was It was it was phenomenal. I loved Twitter back in Lego eight and I

[00:49:20.10] spk_3:
were on the show. You might have said you don’t know if Twitter will survive, but But the

[00:49:23.75] spk_6:
concept, the concept, right? Momo? Well, not not constant tweeting the continent mobile messaging the concept of short, short burst communication. And I was right. And that is everything. That every single text,

[00:49:34.74] spk_0:
every single email, every single thing that we get is short bursts, right? And and for the

[00:49:39.68] spk_6:
HD, that’s perfect. It’s quick, little Oh, let’s look Okay. So

[00:49:42.58] spk_0:
let’s move on, you know, But the premise of tradition I’m starting to have your say something.

[00:49:51.32] spk_3:
Okay? That’s all these all these, uh, advice is, you know, the trite little Yeah. Never don’t be afraid to fail that the biggest failure is never trying, you know, But but But, I

[00:49:59.50] spk_2:
mean, there’s truth in

[00:50:00.15] spk_3:
it, but it seems trite.

[00:50:06.16] spk_6:
Well, everything seems t social media fucked everything up because nobody but nobody.

[00:50:06.66] spk_2:
You know, people are

[00:50:07.21] spk_6:
the last thing on. That’s right. I’m still see things. Yes. Thank you for sending 10,000 person conferences and telling them Be transparent. Be relevant.

[00:50:14.14] spk_0:
Be be, be brief. Being really

[00:50:17.05] spk_6:
Well, it’s so obvious. Then why aren’t you doing it? Test it. Try it.

[00:50:24.73] spk_3:
All right. Very true. We wrapped up. Sam, is that, uh we

[00:50:28.71] spk_2:
got five minutes off. Never gonna add. Oh, my gosh. Five minutes left. Oh,

[00:50:29.84] spk_3:
we started five minutes late. Yes, that’s what I’m looking at. The clock on Sam’s. All right, Um,

[00:50:36.43] spk_2:
tell me. Tell me more.

[00:50:55.71] spk_0:
Um, I could tell you that I One of the things that I find is is very, uh, everyone in whose no divers tends to have in common. We’re either incredibly productive or we do nothing at all again. No middle ground.

[00:50:56.87] spk_3:
This was the nomis day. All

[00:51:44.41] spk_0:
right? So I will I will. So, for instance, I have wanted I have done to Iron Man in my life to Ironman triathlons, and I want to do 1/3 1 and I for years I would say, OK, this is a year, and I haven’t had the impetus kick in the pants to sign up and and and pay the money. Paid almost $1000 to register for that. And something fell in my lap this year where it looks like I’ll be doing my 3rd 1 in in October. If you wait for the right moment, you’re never gonna have it. Yeah, right. And so again, that’s why I tend to say yes to almost everything in the world. Um, figure how to do it later, right? So I know that if I do my third eye, man, I’m gonna have to Basically from, like, mid February to October. I am going to be in that zone where I’m gonna be doubling my workouts. I’m gonna be, You know, my sleep will

[00:51:50.55] spk_6:
suffer. Not

[00:52:08.85] spk_0:
tremendously. I’ll still get enough sleep. But, you know, after putting my kid down eight o’clock, I might not go right to bed. I might have to do another two hours on bike. Isn’t like that. And, um but you I guess the point. Grantmakers What I find is that you make time for what’s important, right?

[00:52:12.33] spk_6:
Because of the end of the day, I’m still I’m still having the same 24 hours. That’s not gonna change. I’m not gonna find the time. Right. So you have to make it and you make it expensive. Something else.

[00:52:19.96] spk_0:
So you figure out what? What’s not important? A good friend of mine

[00:52:23.48] spk_6:
I understand so early. It’s amazing. You’re I wish I could do that like you can. No, I don’t know. I don’t know. You can. How do I do that? Well, okay, so I see that

[00:52:31.98] spk_0:
you’re liking, um shit on Facebook at 2 a.m. Maybe. You know, don’t do

[00:52:37.87] spk_6:
that. You know, it’s like we all have the same amount of time, and and how we utilize it is what

[00:52:43.43] spk_3:
matters. All right, out of respect for you, because the hour is really it’s an artificial. It’s an artificial

[00:52:47.90] spk_6:
country. Exactly. That exists

[00:52:50.94] spk_3:
to an hour, so we’re gonna leave it there. I really wanna thank you

[00:52:52.90] spk_6:
for your time. Thank you. Come back another five years.

[00:52:57.18] spk_3:
Thanks a lot for sure. You’ll find him at Peter Shankman. Peter

[00:53:03.38] spk_0:
Shankman. Peter Shankman. another Socials and peter shankman dot com and apparition shankman dot com.

[00:53:07.84] spk_3:
And at Peter Shankman, you also see he’s now a futurist in residence. We get just talk about

[00:53:11.53] spk_0:
epic epic marketing consultants, a great company in a Delaware. They hired me as their futurists futurist in residence. Yeah, so I come up with ideas. I I write white papers on what I think is gonna happen. Then we see if I’m

[00:53:24.41] spk_3:
right. Thank you very much. Next week, it’s our Valentine’s Day show relationship. Fundraising naturally with Adrian Sergeant. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:53:40.40] spk_2:
cooking meth in Software Denali Fund

[00:53:58.13] spk_3:
Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A

[00:54:38.88] spk_2:
creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York We’re a pre recorded today, so there wasn’t live. Listen, love podcast pleasantries. But of course, you know the sentiment goes out. Those sentiments always go out. You with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for January 31, 2020: CEO/Chair Relationship

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Alex Counts: CEO/Chair RelationshipYour CEO and board chair need to forge and maintain a strong partnership. Alex Counts shows us how. He’s a consultant, and founder of Grameen Foundation.

 

 

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[00:00:14.14] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:16.74] spk_0:
radio big non profit ideas for the

[00:00:19.67] spk_2:
other 95%.

[00:00:44.44] spk_0:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown in taquito amino acid E mia If you brought me down with the sappy idea that you missed today’s show CEO chair relationship, your CEO and board chair need to forge and maintain a strong partnership. Alex Counts shows us how he’s a consultant and founder of Grameen Foundation on

[00:00:48.09] spk_2:
Tony’s Take. Two planned giving for the decade were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:18.14] spk_0:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Now let’s, uh, meet Alex counts Pleasure to welcome him. He’s adjunct professor of public policy at the University of Maryland and a non profit consultant. He’s founder of Grameen Foundation, which has grown to become a leading international humanitarian

[00:01:31.93] spk_2:
organization. He’s got a book Changing

[00:01:41.95] spk_0:
the World Without Losing Your Mind. Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship, which is a chronicle of philanthropy. Editor’s pick. He’s at Alex counts dot

[00:01:47.38] spk_2:
com and at Alex counts. What was your name again? Alex counts. Thank

[00:01:49.06] spk_4:
you. It’s great to be here.

[00:01:53.22] spk_2:
Pleasure. Thank you for coming into the city on the studio. Um, tell us about the founding

[00:01:58.65] spk_0:
of Grameen Foundation. Interesting roots in Bangladesh.

[00:02:00.69] spk_4:
Yeah, I was is a college student. I was taken with the work Mohammad Yunus was doing to empower the destitute women of Bangladesh through micro credit, and he would go on to win the Nobel Prize. But I kind of it was Grameen Bank. That was Grameen Bank. And I had this vision in college of If we could take his model and exported to other countries where there is poverty, that would be could be a real breakthrough. It was simplistic, but and I But it was basically a good idea. And so I went in, apprenticed with him for about a decade in Bangladesh, and then I Then I said at one point, it’s time to start kind of an international hub for helping people apply the Grameen Bank ideas to other countries. And so he said, Well, here’s $6000 which I thought was a lot of money to start an organization with. It wasn’t but we were just kind of on a wing and a prayer started What became growing foundation in 97 on Guy was completely unprepared and all sorts of ways to run a non profit and start one. But we went forward and it worked out.

[00:03:07.30] spk_0:
You you say sort of hastily because you’ve got a lot going on. You had a lot going on 10 years living in Bangladesh. You fluent in de she Bengali Bangla. Is it Bangalore? Bengali? Is it? It’s It’s

[00:03:11.32] spk_4:
Bengali and English. It’s Bangla in being Ali.

[00:03:14.13] spk_3:
Okay, Um,

[00:03:15.10] spk_2:
I’ve been

[00:03:21.23] spk_0:
there. I spent I spent two weeks between Bangladesh just in Dhaka and Sir Lanka, which is also a beautiful country. Yeah,

[00:03:23.50] spk_2:
my sense of Bangladesh

[00:03:24.46] spk_0:
was ah, lot of poverty and a lot of very hardworking people. Thes tiny businesses in the micro stalls is I’m thinking of old DACA, but people working hard and you know, whatever their niche was, uh I

[00:03:39.12] spk_2:
saw a lot of hard working, dedicated people,

[00:04:10.25] spk_4:
Absolutely both in the cities and in the rural countryside where I spent a lot of my time and learn. That’s why I really learned Bengali well, but it is my mentor and board chair, Susan Davis. So I met in Bangladesh. She was a Ford Foundation representative and I was, Ah, Fulbright scholar initially, and she said, Listen, Alex, she’s a lot of these pithy statement She said, In a country that doesn’t have enough jobs, by far doesn’t have a social safety net. You have two choices. You work for yourself tiny undercapitalized business in most cases or you starve. And so people, whether they’re intramural ability, is robust or more limited. Starvation is not a great option. So people try to start these tiny businesses.

[00:04:22.68] spk_0:
That’s when I saw yeah, s O. That’s the micro micro lending. And then Mohammed as and all I can imagine, what someone could do with it isn’t even $1000. Is that too much?

[00:05:00.83] spk_4:
So the loans for the first decade of Grameen were typical. Loan was about $70. So your way you’re buying, you know, five chickens and you know you know how to raise chickens. But you never had more money to have more than one u five chickens. You sell the eggs, you pay off the loan with the sales of the eggs. And at the end of the year, you have five chickens that air your asset maybe more assets than you’ve ever had a productive assets you’ve ever had in your life. And Mohammad Yunus is in sight. Was but build a banking system that can actually be viable through making $70 loans and then $100 loans if they pay back and later, larger amounts on and and And that was the essence of his brilliant innovation.

[00:05:15.94] spk_0:
And you were, You were how many years that Green Foundation as founder and CEO

[00:05:21.27] spk_4:
18 years s. I ran it for its 1st 18 years. It was a It was a fantastic ride. And again when we finally started, get some headway is when I realized that a couple things that I need to be fundraiser in chief. That wasn’t something I could delegate and that I needed to craft a very important relationship with my board share.

[00:05:40.90] spk_2:
And those

[00:05:42.86] spk_4:
two insights probably where the, you know, helped us reach kind of escape velocity and get it to erase 10 $2025 million in the year, as opposed to remain a little tiny, non

[00:05:51.46] spk_0:
profit. What a skilled guest you bring in the board. The board chair relationship so smoothly. So not like the boorish host of the show. We’re just abruptly changed course.

[00:06:04.48] spk_2:
All right, so, uh, yeah, so we’re here to talk about Well, you know, we’ll shout

[00:06:08.30] spk_0:
out your book a couple times, uh, changing the world without losing your mind. But

[00:06:12.67] spk_2:
we want to focus

[00:06:23.81] spk_0:
on something that I saw an article that you had written in The Chronicle of Philanthropy about the CEO board chair relationship. Susan Davis was one of your one of your chair. Was she your first? She’s my

[00:06:28.99] spk_4:
third chair. But when we finally I finally got the relationship right was with her, and I give her most of the credit for that. I kind of fumbled it with the 1st 2 board chairs, mainly my fault on dhe. She helped me kind of figure out how to make that just a magical relationship

[00:06:43.90] spk_0:
on dhe critical to the success of an organization you saw Grameen on. You felt it. You saw it and felt it in your relationship with Susan. You saw the organization benefiting and you felt it personally.

[00:07:44.00] spk_4:
I had an ally. I wasn’t so alone. She gained my trust on She would sometimes, you know, step in and do things that I was either incapable of doing or just didn’t have the skills. I mean, it’s just a perfect relationship on. And, you know, she wasn’t the prototypical white male businessman in their sixties with a lot of money, but she brought other assets, and and then, you know, we were ableto have a more traditional board chairs coming after her. But she was in the roll for six and 1/2 years, and she, you know, the the article you mentioned in The Chronicle of Philanthropy. The origin of that was I was giving a talk at The Chronicle about my book and about how I went from a completely underprepared non profit executive director, succeeding on some level. And I just kept coming back to my relation with Susan on then the couple of four chairs that followed her, and they said, Would you write an article on that on that you you mentioned so many times you’re talking? I said I’d be thrilled to, and It was a pretty narrow topic, but it got a good response and got me here to be talking with you.

[00:08:10.38] spk_0:
Your life has led you to this moment. All points of it’s all downhill from here. Pretty much non profit radio. I feel bad after our lunch, then

[00:08:11.79] spk_4:
downwardly mobile life.

[00:08:13.24] spk_0:
I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Uh,

[00:08:19.52] spk_2:
all right. So let’s talk about, um Well, the let’s get into some of your some

[00:08:22.27] spk_0:
of your advice around this around this relationship, you siphoned it down into 10. I don’t know if we’ll get time for 10 because we want to talk a little about Cem Cem, General governance. But

[00:08:32.03] spk_2:
why don’t we, uh why don’t we just

[00:08:39.14] spk_0:
tease the 1st 1? We got a minute before before first break about, um, respect the chair needs to earn respect if that the

[00:09:14.59] spk_4:
chair is seen is just a kind of a defender of the CEO, uhm, and someone who’s just tryingto make his or her life easy and keep the bored out of their hair or in any other way doesn’t really have the respect to the board. Then his or her job is much harder because the board chair is kind of a liaison between the staff and the executive director and the rest of the board. And that board share has to earn the respect of both parties in order. Play that bridging role effectively. And Susan did it. Sometimes people do it by writing $1,000,000 checks, but Susan didn’t have that at her disposal of time. So she did it in other ways but was able to get earn the respect of me and the staff. But very importantly, the the rest of the board.

[00:09:24.62] spk_0:
All right, I’ve seen board chairs that were wealthy and wrote big checks and still didn’t have the respect of the board. So if there’s respect based on that, I think it’s kind of shallow and it doesn’t necessarily follow even. Okay, let’s take our first

[00:09:38.40] spk_2:
break wegner-C.P.As They go beyond the numbers. They’ve got videos, effective governance.

[00:09:43.61] spk_0:
For starters. We’re gonna talk a little about that toward the end of the show. Um,

[00:09:47.70] spk_2:
also i nine

[00:09:51.74] spk_0:
tips. If you happen to have immigrant employees, they’ve also got a video on high impact grant

[00:09:53.83] spk_2:
proposals, sexual harassment awareness, way beyond the numbers. This is not just

[00:10:16.94] spk_0:
your average accountancy, for God’s sake, on other videos, you gotta wegner-C.P.As dot com, Click Resource Is and recorded events. I just got late breaking news that Amy Sample Ward will be calling in around the bottom of the hour. Onda will spend about five minutes talking about 20 NTC, the 2020 non profit technology conference, which is in coming up in March in Baltimore. So I know you wanna hear her at the bottom of the hour. Um, in the meantime, let’s go back to ah CEO chair relationship.

[00:10:33.01] spk_2:
Yes. Oh, I don’t I don’t think

[00:10:40.81] spk_0:
money first necessarily creates respect, And if it does, I think it’s a kind of a shallow Well, it’s one

[00:10:42.10] spk_4:
thing to earn. The respect is the board share. You have to show that you’re invested. Ah, and so Susan would show that by showing up prepared by doing her homework. Talking with Helio money and writing a check that is meaningful for someone and meaningful for the organization is another way. But you’re right. It’s no way incomplete. You need to be a fair minded. You need to kind of promote the right kind of dialogue of the board level craft agendas that makes sense that you know, Don’t don’t let the board becoming their micromanaging or rubber stamp, but occupy that really nice middle ground. Yeah, it’s All I’m saying is, is that it’s possible to earn the respect of the board, even with bored with some wealthy people. If you’re yourself aren’t personally wealthy by doing other things on that, some people I think some people just regard it is you know you need the board. Share is just absolute mandatory to be made your wealthiest person, the board and I might have thought that. But I saw that. It doesn’t need to be.

[00:11:38.93] spk_0:
Yeah, I would reject

[00:11:42.13] spk_3:
that. Um, by

[00:11:42.47] spk_0:
the same token, you do want the board chair tohave the back of the CEO in times of crisis. Well,

[00:11:56.76] spk_4:
right? I mean, people, you know, have all non profit CEOs if, unless they’re completely risk of hers, make mistakes, mismanaged things mismanage external relationships on dhe, you know, it’s it’s, I think when our new chairs in place, how they react to the first time that happens on whether they both publicly and privately support the CEO on dhe make them feel secure in the aftermath of their bungle eyes. Probably a lot will determine. A lot of everything will go after that on Susan. You know, a time would come maybe six months later, where Susan would talk with me and her successors, who are also very good and say, you know, that thing that you did in six months ago? They didn’t work out, you know? What did you learn from it? Andi? Are we Do we have things in place to prevent that from happening again? But at the time when you’re at your low point and at risk of making further poor decisions in the aftermath of trying to cover up or deal with one bad decision, having the board share be empathetic and supportive and not pointing a finger is I found a central

[00:12:54.10] spk_0:
is the board is looking to them for leadership. You know howto way still behind this CEO or are we not?

[00:13:19.11] spk_4:
How do we digest this, right? And then that’s where the board chair’s leadership did not gloss over. It does not say this mistake was meaningless, but also not to say panic, but to say I’m on top of this. I’m gonna disclose to you the board what’s going on in a level appropriate to your role. I’m working with the E D. And

[00:13:19.32] spk_2:
now if it’s

[00:13:19.72] spk_4:
a life endangering mistake for the organization that it might go under,

[00:13:24.10] spk_2:
then I think

[00:14:07.87] spk_4:
you need to take a little different tact. But if it’s just a setback and embarrassing though it may be, you know you need to really inspire confidence in everyone. But also just, you know, to get the best out of the CEO of the executive director. You know, first and foremost is have them feel like you’re their ally, not someone who’s trying to, you know, embarrassed. And I’ve seen this. I’ve served on boards for all you have and others listeners have board shares to whatever. There’s a mistake. They feel it’s kind of a public embarrassment for them, and their job is to avoid blame themselves. Maybe they have public standing, and then that that has on and particularly that could kind of poison the relationship with the E D. You know, nothing flat. Yeah.

[00:14:09.12] spk_2:
Do you? You have a

[00:14:20.00] spk_0:
preference for executive director versus CEO? I’ve had guests prefer the CEO. Others say it doesn’t really matter much. Do you have ah preference, you

[00:15:06.71] spk_4:
know, in the organization’s I’ve served in. It’s been I’ve been the president and CEO. There’s some executive directors that aren’t the chief executive officer that sometimes is the chair in executive chair. That’s interesting. So Esso and again I’m not. I’m not a super techno person on this, but I think smaller nonprofits tend to be. You talk about AIDS on, and sometimes they don’t have a vote at the board level, whereas in large organizations, that tends to be a president CEO with a non executive chair. And I’m just, you know, and even when grooming Foundation was small, somehow we adopted that nomenclature, which at the time I didn’t care about or think it all about. I was just trying to raise enough money to pay this, you know, costs the next month. But anyway, that’s that. That’s what we adopted. Yeah,

[00:15:10.49] spk_2:
okay, but now you have the

[00:15:13.66] spk_0:
luxury of looking back and snickering. That’s right! And admitting that the first to board chairs the relationships warrant as robust, as supportive as they could have been made

[00:15:22.92] spk_2:
at the time,

[00:15:26.10] spk_4:
I viewed the board and managing my relation with the chair, and fundraising is kind of necessary. Evils not, is not as something to be the cornerstone of building the organization. That was That was my fundamental mistake until I finally got it right.

[00:15:37.80] spk_2:
Let’s talk a little about

[00:15:46.84] spk_0:
selection of, ah, board chair. Do you like to see it come from? The board would like to see. I’ve seen organizations that have a assistant assistant chair, rice chair, vice chair, executive vice chair, and then it’s presumed that they’re gonna move into the chair. You like to see that kind of

[00:15:56.58] spk_2:
ladder? Well, first,

[00:16:44.61] spk_4:
I think every rule in terms of building aboard you should be, you know, willing almost every really should be willing to break. So one point. We had a very well known, very wealthy person joining our board, and we thought about installing them his chair for more or less the moment that joined the board. And that might have worked. But we didn’t didn’t come to pass, but in general I think you want someone of your chair who served on your board with distinction for, you know, three or four years at least. I like the idea of a vice chair, but I’m a little out made out of the mainstream on this I don’t think that vice chair should necessarily be the chair elect. I’d like to see a vice chair in that role really perform so that they earn the chair. Roll a za po. And that’s why sometimes having to vice chairs, I’ve seen that work nicely. But oftentimes the vice chair is

[00:16:47.08] spk_0:
the two vice chairs are sort of competing to be that really like we friendly competition for the chair shit. German ship.

[00:16:53.76] spk_6:
It’s a

[00:16:56.00] spk_4:
secondary aspect. Yeah, it’s Ah, a TTE The point We had our vice chair on the West Coast and I thought that having a second vice chair who was quite busy when entered a And

[00:17:05.04] spk_5:
that’s what one

[00:17:05.41] spk_4:
things that happens. You can’t predict a vice Jared chair can enter the role in a semi retirement, have a lot of time to put in. And next thing you know, they’re appointed as happened to me, a CZ the as the CEO of a publicly traded company and their ability to put time in is changed. So we we had a vice chair who was the dean of ah of a university in a university on the West Coast. I said, Well, what if we had a vice chair on the East Coast also to kind of cover this part of the country and on. So that worked.

[00:17:34.62] spk_2:
But in another way, was

[00:17:35.89] spk_4:
a kind of let’s, let’s see, between the two of them, which one of them, you know, is it inspires the confidence of the board on shows the commitment that would make them the ideal. You know, successor chair.

[00:17:48.14] spk_2:
How do you like to

[00:18:10.16] spk_0:
break in? I think my voice just crack. How’d you? 14. Huh? How? Let’s give some authoritative. Ah, tony. Er, how do you like to, uh ah, inaugurate the relationship? New chair? You presumably. As you’re suggesting. You know, if you worked with him 3 to 4 years, So the non new person to you. But I knew in that relationship. You in that position.

[00:18:12.91] spk_2:
How do you like to

[00:18:13.67] spk_0:
kick off the that new relationship? Well,

[00:18:17.02] spk_4:
in an ideal world and running a nonprofit where you never have enough resource is and you’re always trying to cram 14 months of work into 12 months and you can always do this.

[00:18:26.54] spk_2:
But an ideal

[00:18:26.99] spk_4:
world. I’d like to spend a good kind of a good day with the person you know, both with a structured agenda and somewhat unstructured, maybe going to a baseball game together just to really get to know them and bond with them, if that’s possible. On

[00:18:39.97] spk_2:
the other

[00:18:40.21] spk_4:
thing that kind of evolved. This is, you know, I’m thinking back what work is that each board share wanted gonna put their stamp on the their leadership not to not to just contradict or do something different than what the prior wanted done, but

[00:18:55.72] spk_2:
something that

[00:18:56.11] spk_4:
they had seen. Maybe work in another non profit or in the corporate sector. And

[00:18:59.91] spk_2:
I would just

[00:20:59.49] spk_4:
say, unless it didn’t make any sense to me. I said, Let’s let’s do that Let’s you know this person didn’t kind of imposed this idea when they were, say, vice chair, just to give you two examples. You Bob bike Feld, who succeeded Susan in the role he thought that it was. It was a very important from a governess perspective to gather a couple board leaders and the head and our general counsel on me every six months to basically evaluate the performance of each and every board member in person and on, and so and you know when people were doing really well. So well, let’s let’s prepare a resolution commending them at the next meeting. Will we draft that if the person wasn’t referring? Well, well, who’s gonna take them aside? We’ve never done that before. But it was just something he thought you know would work. And I just said, You know, you want to bring that in. This is gonna be one of your signature things that comes in your first year. I’m totally behind it. Let’s make it happen. Or another thing he wanted is for me to bring in that. Susan wasn’t kind of didn’t That wasn’t her style, but it’s like let let Bob lead the way he wants to. And let me not just grudgingly say, OK, I’ll do that if you want, But I think this could be a great idea. And you, Bob also pushed me to write for the first time emergency succession plan, which I embarrassed to say that, you know, 10 years in the Grameen Foundation, I had never even know what that was. But and he said, you know, write, write up a memo for those of your listeners and aren’t aware you know, what should we do if you’re suddenly incapacitated or killed? And and so I put it off for a while, it was more confronting than I thought, but I finally did get it done. And that was something he achieved in his first year. Um, and again I was I was just kind of trusted that that was something of useful. And I put my full attention to kind of implementing a couple of ideas that he had and and when every new board chair came in, they kind of had a few ideas. And I would just unless they sound crazy to me and I I need to get the convinced I would just, you know, not just back from kind of half heartedly, but fully

[00:21:01.64] spk_2:
say some more about

[00:21:02.28] spk_0:
the semi annual board evaluate individual board member evaluation process.

[00:21:07.64] spk_2:
Well, you know,

[00:21:19.90] spk_4:
we would gather on a table. I think we did it a few times. That can recall, and it was no one ever called in. Our vice chair flew in from San Diego for it. We did it in Washington and literally, you know, it was just it was sickness. See,

[00:21:22.95] spk_2:
one of the

[00:21:23.40] spk_4:
things I’ve come to believe that came from Susan. The Before Bob is that term limits are

[00:21:29.14] spk_2:
kind of

[00:21:31.76] spk_4:
a quick fix kind of mandate, and that really what you want board members to do is to is to kind of go through their orientation and

[00:21:37.70] spk_2:
then to go

[00:22:09.31] spk_4:
into a period of what I call High Performance is a board member where they’re giving it their all their money, their time, their reputation, their con connections, etcetera. And then ultimately, all board members, I think, ultimately go into what is called coasting, where they’re just they’re not really giving their all because their interest is in another organization. And so Bob’s this term limits air saying, Well, most people go to coasting after six years, so let them just term out at six years. But the truth is, some people term out. Some people go into that mode after 18 months, and some are going strong in 18 years. So this was a mechanism to just evaluate the kind of the wherein the life cycle was each individual on the board where what should they be commended for? On what should they maybe be taken aside and said, you know, board member ex. You know, if you could get back to performing like you did four years ago in terms of showing up prepared, participating discussions, your committee assignments, raising money, giving money, You know, we think you should re up for the board when your turn comes up. But if not you, maybe not. Ah, and that can’t be done. The blunt instrument of term limits or other things. This

[00:22:42.14] spk_2:
is this. We would

[00:23:01.77] spk_4:
spend 34 hours together evaluating every single person aboard. And how might we support them better. But how might we ask them to support us more? And you can’t? You can’t take a cookie cutter to that. And so it was. It was a pretty rigorous process, but it was. It worked, and it made the team that was at the table. They’re just feel like they were in a position to, and it had them participate differently. This is the vice chair chair of the Governance Committee and the general counsel me in the chair. You know, we would then pay attention. More panel, evaluating each number individually, correct. And

[00:23:17.25] spk_2:
and then once you start

[00:23:54.67] spk_4:
that, then you know, you kind of observe the board in a different way. When you know you’re gonna be six months later doing that again and you start to think, Gosh, might I pull this board member aside even now and commend them or redirect them a little bit even if I’m not the chair? Because I know that this evaluation and it creates a kind of accountability because we told the board that we were doing this. It wasn’t done in secret eso it was rather than have ah, this kind of straitjacket of term limits. We created this kind of culture of accountability, of board that just brought out the best in people. And when their interests moved on, they kind of voluntarily said, You know, this will be my final term and thank you all for whether I served for three years or 13 years on it. Just for me. It worked a lot better.

[00:24:20.39] spk_0:
Your ah contrary and in terms of the mainstream, thinking about board term limits, yes, but you have this important semi annual evaluation as well, so that a CZ your nerves, you said people will either recognize that they’re not performing, or they’ll bluntly be told that they’re not performing TX stations,

[00:24:27.96] spk_4:
right? That’s and it takes effort on

[00:24:29.76] spk_2:
because this is a lot of time

[00:24:30.60] spk_0:
commitment. How big? I’m sure the Grameen board grew over time when you left. How many people, you

[00:24:36.52] spk_6:
know, I like

[00:24:37.33] spk_0:
value waiting. Yeah, I’ve heard of much

[00:25:10.86] spk_4:
smaller and much larger board’s working, although I’m not quite sure how. But I think the optimal number aboard if they’re one of the responsibilities is raising money. The optimal number is between 15 and 20 and that’s what it was for almost the entirety of my time there, I think over 20 you get some negative dynamics, including, you know, people don’t show up. They’re not even noticed because the numbers are too big. And if you get under 15 you know, you really need a lot more fundraising muscle than you unless you just have a bunch of billionaires on the board. And so it was always. It was always in the high teens on, though I gave myself authority to have up to 25 on the bylaws, but gave us authority. But we never we will always, always between 15 and 20 right?

[00:25:23.08] spk_2:
So this is a big time

[00:25:23.82] spk_0:
commitment because Now you’re doing between 30 and 40 evaluations per year because you’re evaluating each person semi annually and several hours devoted to, ah, a conversation with each one twice a

[00:25:46.59] spk_4:
year. And the follow up that you promise, saying they’re there that after each board member would just say so what feedback or what? Commendation or accolade or redirection, Do we need to give this board member based on our discussion and that that would mostly fall to the five of us in the room

[00:26:01.15] spk_0:
and there was implicit in that s o. Some board members are getting commended on brothers or not, but we all know that we’re all being evaluated. So when it comes time for commendations, some names air left out, that’s where it was only,

[00:26:06.05] spk_4:
um, you know, it was

[00:26:06.63] spk_6:
only twice

[00:26:55.17] spk_4:
in our history where we actually had to take a board member side and urged them, not Thio run for re election. So if when this works well, it’s really becomes an informal accountability process where people opt out before they have to be kind of pushed out. And, uh um, and yet you need to be willing to do that if the time comes, and in one case, you know, way took a board member aside and we just said, It’s you know, it’s time for you to step aside and is interesting He said it that years later he told me he said, Well, as mad as hell at the time, but you and the chair were right. I just couldn’t see it then. And eso it’s that magical thing where people basically, whenever there flames, starts to be not so bright for in terms of the, you know, being a champion of the board, they just they know it and they and everyone knows it. And they just say again, Allah, I’ll serve out my term and I’ll step down and again whether that’s three years into their service or 15 years, it’s just based on. Are they giving it their best? And

[00:27:10.43] spk_2:
not

[00:27:10.61] spk_4:
everyone you know people’s interests move on. I mean, it’s a natural human phenomenon. Yeah,

[00:27:17.33] spk_0:
yeah. Very interesting. Interesting process. You mentioned election of board re election of board members. That was that not managed by an executive committee just deciding whether someone would remain Who were the electors, the whole board, the

[00:28:36.84] spk_4:
whole the whole board Now there’s a nominating what we close it in our model. We had both the governance committee that worked on our kind of internal governance, and the nominating committee was merged in the same committee and another boards I’ve been on Those are two separate things and on and, you know, when you only have 15 18 members. There are only so many committees you can have when your larger boards could have more. But yeah, it, in this case, the default was when someone’s three year term came up. Um, you think the default is that they’re gonna be reelected if they want to be. But there is a process that again the governance committee chair is part of that group that is, that meets every six months on day would take what are our discussions and bring them into the governance committee. Um, but Maur, I think that committee was more about adding new people to the board more of the nominating committee, but But ultimately every board meeting or every other board meeting, if someone’s three year term was up, they would be reelected or more than likely, or they would prior to that announced that they weren’t seeking re election and it would be handled that way. Okay.

[00:28:38.92] spk_3:
Okay. Um,

[00:28:40.17] spk_2:
let’s ah, let’s take,

[00:29:30.12] spk_0:
uh, let’s take this break. And, uh, if you wanna you got a little longer in this break, And now we’re gonna talk to Amy Sample Ward as well. So, uh, stand by. Don’t go anywhere, though, Okay? You don’t have time to go to the bathroom. Just drink water, bathroom breaks or later, uh, his break quote. We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they’re always there to help walk. Help me walk through it. End Quote that Sally Hancock in Altoona, Pennsylvania, Maur raves about the Cougar Mountain customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial, which is on the listener landing page, which is at now time for Tony’s Take two. Your decade plan for planned giving. Um, this is not only the beginning of a new year, which is now close to 1/12 over already, but that means that we’re nearly 1 144th of the way into the new decade. So my, uh, belief is my It’s more than a belief. It’s almost Fact,

[00:29:49.25] spk_2:
if you start

[00:30:01.17] spk_0:
your planned giving program this year, you are gonna be astronomically ahead, and you’re gonna be you’re gonna be shocked at where you are by the year 2029. Those 10 years

[00:30:07.79] spk_2:
you’ll be you’ll be at

[00:30:21.72] spk_0:
a point where you can be projecting planned giving revenue for future years based on the revenue that you will have had in like years. 6789 That’s how far ahead you will be in plant giving and you think plan giving that. You know, people die. The gifts come, but we don’t know when those when those episodes air gonna happen. Yeah, but once your file is large enough, once you have enough planned giving donors in your file, you’re gonna start to see trends. And of course, you can’t predict to the dollar amount.

[00:30:46.78] spk_2:
But you can give yourself some comfort with a range that you expect to receive in cash each year,

[00:31:22.81] spk_0:
going forward from really like your 789 and forward, but certainly from your 10 on. So my urging is that you if you are not doing plan giving fundraising 2020 is the year to start the beginning of the decade. I say a lot more about this in a video, which is your decade plan for playing, giving. I lay out the plan. I don’t just say where you’re gonna be in a decade. I show you how to get there step year by year in the video, which is at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony. Take two now. Uh, late breaking. Let’s bring in Amy Sample Ward. She’s the CEO of and 10 and our social media and technology contributor. And

[00:31:44.64] spk_2:
we’re going to spend a few minutes talking about what’s coming up at 20 NTC. The 2020 non profit Technology conference. Welcome back, Amy. Sample Ward

[00:31:46.85] spk_7:
Bake. I’m happy to be on happy 2020.

[00:32:02.29] spk_2:
Thank you very much. Yes, indeed. First time we’ve talked this year. Um, it’s not too late to say Happy New Year because we know each other so well. And, uh, I haven’t seen you Haven’t talked to you since January 1st. So happy New Year. Happy, happy, Happy decade as well.

[00:32:05.44] spk_7:
Well, And where we’ve just started the Chinese New Year. So

[00:32:10.41] spk_0:
indeed, Yes, Yes, indeed. Balloon. You’re here. Um,

[00:32:13.04] spk_2:
so we’ve got this little thing coming up. It’s not

[00:32:24.41] spk_0:
so little, um, being snarky. It’s in Baltimore in March 2020. Non profit technology conference hosted by and 10 non profit radio will be there on the exhibit

[00:32:29.49] spk_2:
floor. But before we get to that, you tell us what? What? Why should

[00:32:31.89] spk_0:
we be attending?

[00:33:07.15] spk_7:
Oh, my gosh. I am really excited for this year because I think, as you know, you’ve You’ve been a handful of times now, so you can probably speak to this yourself too. But every year we’re always trying to make it better than it was, of course, the year before. And each year we feel like, Okay, this is the best we’ve ever done it. But how could we make it better? And I think we’ve got some really good plans this year that do that. Of course we have. You know, this is a big three day conference there, 2200 plus people altogether. And it doesn’t have to be, you know, just one type of non profit or one type of job in an organization. If you are listening to this, you are welcome at the number of

[00:33:17.73] spk_2:
probably

[00:33:18.57] spk_7:
that you could learn and do there

[00:33:19.84] spk_0:
It is not only for technologists, not only for technologists,

[00:35:24.80] spk_7:
right? Well, I mean, it’s 2020. Everyone in a non profit is using technology, right? Like it doesn’t. It doesn’t really matter how what your job titles has on your business card. There’s pieces of technology you need to use or make decisions about to be effective in your job on. There’s folks from every job title and people who have been in the sector for a year, and people have been in it for 40 years. You know, it’s it’s really like a cross section of everybody, Um, and we have over 150 sessions, so plenty of opportunity to go learn. But outside of that, something that we feel makes the NTC really specialists. How many opportunities there are for you to meet other people and share ideas or come to the conference of that one burning question like you just wish you could find somebody that’s figured out a way to get mail chimp to do that One thing you know, like we want to make sure you really do find that one other person. So we have a lot of kind of community based programs that happen as part of the agenda, and we have even more of them this year. We’ve We’ve always had what we call birds of a feather. So you know, funny things like people will do. You know, people who love watching a certain TV show or something as a table topic at lunch. But other people will do things like, you know, they use a certain tool or something so they can all meet each other and chat. But in the afternoons we’ve started this year what we’re calling knowledge swaps where they’re Maur intentional. They are about, you know, something work related, something you want to do something You’re having a challenge with, something that you just did really well And you want to make sure you can share that knowledge with other people so folks can sign up to basically, like, find other folks and hosted a conversation together on the topics a little bit easier than saying you want to present for 75 minutes for a session, right? Like maybe you just want to find four other folks and share ideas. So we built that into the agenda each day on and we’ve also expanded our career center. That isn’t just for people looking for jobs. A really big part of the community of the career center is mentorship. So being able to sit down with somebody for happen our and share feedback, whether it’s about their resume or it’s about, you know, the evolution in your own career. So what? Whatever side of that coin that you would be on the career center has lost of opportunities for you, um, and would love for folks to be a part of that.

[00:35:51.11] spk_0:
Okay, um, we just have, like, a minute in a minute or so left, so details of registration. Where do we

[00:35:58.54] spk_2:
go with the dates? Radio? Don’t even say the day everything. But the date is today.

[00:36:10.72] spk_7:
Yes, the dates are March 24th 26 it’s in Baltimore. At the convention center. There’s hotels of all the various price points, whatever place you have, a membership number two, whatever, all around the convention center, and you can go toe intend that orc Slash and T. C. You can see the full agenda. You can review some of those community programs I was talking about. We’ve got Rachel Affinity Spaces support for folks who want prayer room, meditation spaces, lactation access. All of those things are part of our conference. So we really want it to be something that folks are ready to learn and meet other people and talk. This is a resource for you. And if there’s a way we can make it easier support you being able to participate, we will do everything we can to do that. So please Goto intend that work slash NPC. Check it out. If you need anything, let us know. But hopefully we see you in March.

[00:37:05.76] spk_0:
This is an excellent conference. Yeah, I’ve been there. I think this is the sixth year.

[00:37:10.06] spk_2:
Do you think I think it’s the 60

[00:37:20.04] spk_0:
year I’ve brought the show, so we will be on the exhibit floor where were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software at the conference. So we’ll be side by side. We’ll be getting. I’ll be getting 30 plus interviews. Last year I got 32 interviews in two and 1/2 days, and then we air them. That

[00:37:28.44] spk_7:
must have been a record. 30.

[00:37:45.78] spk_0:
32 is the is the largest I’ve gotten. Yeah, it had been like 25 27 or so, but so were booked up. Eso. When you’re at the conference, come on the exhibit floor. I believe you’ll see us in boots 5 10 and 5 12 On DDE comes he’s come Say hello will be the noisy one with probably with spotlights, because we might shoot video. So but very smart, very smart speakers in lots of different topics around technology. And Amy’s Point is, I want to drive home. We’re all technologists. It regardless of what it says on your business card, you’re no longer using index cards and transparencies. You know, the overhead projectors. They’re gone. We’re all using technology, and this conference is for people at all different levels. Whether it’s on your in your job title as C I O. Or You’re just a user of technology

[00:38:22.71] spk_2:
and you have to say good bye. Thank you very much.

[00:38:24.45] spk_7:
Okay, thank you so much. And I will see what your booth. Because I always loved getting to do an interview with you.

[00:38:29.16] spk_2:
Absolutely. It’s our only time to go face to face. Yes, we’ll see you. I’ll see you in Baltimore.

[00:38:36.00] spk_0:
All right. Thank you for that indulgence. Alex Count. It’s usually

[00:38:38.44] spk_4:
a great conference or close to where I live. Yeah, it is fabulous. Maybe I’ll see you. There is

[00:38:49.80] spk_0:
really a very smart place. Hundreds of brilliance because I wish I could interview more than the 32 or so whatever I’ll get. Um so just remind listeners Alex counts. Ah, consultant, founder of Grameen Foundation. And his book is Changing the World without Losing your mind. Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship. We’re just scratching the surface. You know, where we’re We’re focused on the CEO chair relationship today, but obviously the book goes way beyond

[00:39:11.33] spk_3:
that. Uh,

[00:39:24.52] spk_2:
lots of lessons in 30 years. Now it’s Ah, you got a good You got a young face. You got a baby face. Check out, check out his, uh, check out his headshot tony-martignetti dot com’s gonna baby face. Um, So let’s, uh we divert a little bit, but these are all valuable topics.

[00:39:28.92] spk_0:
I mean, this board evaluation process is semi annual thing is really very interesting. I hadn’t heard anything

[00:39:35.22] spk_3:
like that. Um,

[00:39:36.96] spk_2:
let’s talk Thio. Let’s talk to

[00:39:43.47] spk_0:
communications. You like you like frequent regular communications between the CEO and the chair.

[00:40:28.73] spk_4:
Yes. I mean, there’s no. You know, when you when you talk with someone, you come in. Mike, come on with an agenda of what you think is going on the organization, but especially if you’re not rushed on your in person, where that’s possible, you know, you stumble upon in the process of just kind of ruminating on what’s going on the organization, some opportunities and assets and some kind of dangers and risks that you didn’t even go in thinking about because you’re you know, you’re with someone who’s also internalized. The organization is smart, is committed on DSO. I always, you know, I would wouldn’t want to talk with Susan or Bob or Palm or it’s, you know, have have kind of regular calls, you know, maybe two or three a month, but also in with a strict agenda but also sometimes has really unstructured. You know, it’s been a long dinner with them and, ah, a mixture of bonding and just kind of, you know, thinking out loud brainstorming and and just really kind of creative ideas can come up there. And if you’re I did tell a story. One of my board shares went from being semi retired of a very demanding job three years into his role. And while he did stick with it for another two years, which surprised me my ability to spend time with him, quality unstructured on rushed time was compromised. And and that was and I missed that. And our partnership suffered a little bit. As a result, he was still very good and because of his job, had more money to put into the organization. But his ability to kind of have that Maur kind of on structure brainstorming time was severely constrained.

[00:41:16.49] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah, it was more just a formal time together. Yeah.

[00:41:21.06] spk_2:
And you think about think about friends, you, How much just happens

[00:41:28.85] spk_0:
in free conversation over over a meal in a glass of wine. You

[00:41:47.13] spk_4:
think of some something to do together that just you hadn’t even thought of and just being in their presence. You’re like, Well, why don’t we try that, um and and so that that time together again, so many of these things Fundraising, managing board relationships. They’re very time consuming. But when you do them well and invest the time, it’s just they pay back many, many times, but you need to be able to kind of spend the time on what you know, my wife and I call the important but not urgent on If you invest in that, just magical things can happen.

[00:42:01.10] spk_2:
And then this kind

[00:42:01.89] spk_0:
of thing you have to make time for you aren’t gonna find the time when I when I find the time will, will have an unstructured meeting. But today we’re having an agenda. When I find the time when we find the time to get

[00:42:12.38] spk_2:
time is not gonna tap you on the shoulder and make itself apparent that you have to make the time. There’s never gonna come in timers. I’ve got two free hours today. Let’s have a meeting with meeting with. I’ll have a call with my board chair. It’s not gonna happen. You have to make the time consciously

[00:43:04.04] spk_4:
and you know, and it’s also becomes something, if you know is it can’t became with each my board shares, particularly Bob like Failed and Susan, where I just enjoyed being around them. They had a lot of grace for me when I made mistakes. They kind of puffed up my ego. When I was doing well, we found common interests or developed them on. They never took cheap shots at me, even in private. If they were going to be constructive, they tried the most sensitive way to do it. That didn’t deflate me. And so it just it ends up being. Gosh, I went. When do I get my next time with Susan? Tony Learn Thio kind of, you know, to commiserated, to celebrate. It’s just always like a special thing. And so you know, they make more time for it, and you developing that personal chemistry. Even if you’re very different people like we were, you could develop it, but it it it needs to be a, you know, a high priority

[00:43:19.30] spk_0:
on. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows in the C e o chair relationship. Like any relationship, let me take this last break and we’ll come back to Gilling with tension points.

[00:43:31.35] spk_2:
Turn to communications. Do you find yourself scratching

[00:43:39.57] spk_0:
your head, wondering how some nonprofits always seem to get mentioned in the news? It’s not because they’re big here. We are talking about relationships. It’s because they have relationships with journalists when they don’t want to be quoted, they just have

[00:43:48.44] spk_2:
a relation. They’re not looking for something they have a relationship

[00:43:59.65] spk_0:
of standing relationship with journalists turn to can help you do that. Their former journalists, including from the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So you want to build those relationships in advance. So when the news breaks and you can contribute to it and want to be seen on an issue, you’ve got the standing relationship. Your call, most likely more likely than not, will be taken over not having that standing relationship. They return hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:45:00.25] spk_2:
Let’s do the live listener love and there’s quite a bit of it we are in. Ah, it’s the start. Domestic Woodbridge, New Jersey Tampa, Florida New York New York multiple. Glad to see you. Thank you very much. New York, um, live love to each of those cities as well. A Seattle, Washington in Chicago, Illinois, um, as well as Lincoln’s in North Carolina. Well, cool North Carolina. I’m in Emerald Isle, not today, but, uh, live love. I’ve loved to each of our domestic live listeners. Now let’s go abroad. Seoul, South Korea. Always so loyal. I’m always so grateful. Seoul, South Korea Multiple listeners Annual Hasso comes a ham Nida Woodbridge, New Jersey

[00:45:05.27] spk_0:
No, I’m sorry. That’s not fair. Not that’s That’s, uh that’s not foreign. That’s not very funny.

[00:45:07.74] spk_2:
I’m from New

[00:45:08.17] spk_0:
Jersey. So you know, I’m from I grew up in Rutherford Multiple,

[00:45:44.57] spk_2:
Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan. Often we have Japanese listeners. Thank you, Japan. Konnichi wa um Chapultepec de Chapultepec Day. Hinojosa, Mexico When I started this when you start this France Rahm bouquet that was the same city was with us last week as well. Rambo. Yea. And I apologize if I’m not pronouncing it right. But live love Thio out to our for listeners officers in France, um, Oxford in the United Kingdom and also in Korea Sue on Oh, someone else. Besides, uh um besides soul thank you. Live love out to you. Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Moscow. We’re, uh not quite Everyone say every hemisphere I mean every continent, but we’re close live love

[00:46:45.55] spk_0:
to each of our live listeners. Thank you so much for being with us and the podcast pleasantries toward over 13,000 listeners. In the podcast Pleasantries to you. I thank you for being with us week after week, whether you binge it all and listen to eight episodes on a weekend or you’re spreading it out. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Um, that was our Ah, live. Listen, love in the podcast pleasantries. And now back to, uh, CEO chair relationship, which we’ve got butt loads more time for. Ah, and Alex counts. Okay, Moments of tension. They’re gonna crop up

[00:47:51.47] spk_4:
inevitable in a certain way. Healthy. I remember. And in the article I talked just referenced in passing that, you know, one time I had some tension with Susan Davis and I went to the vice chair kind of probably overreacting to that and wanted to try play Mommy off against Daddy or something, you know. And Yvette Dyer, who is our vice chair at the time, said very profound and basically said, You know, the tension is an inbuilt part of that relationship, even when it’s the healthiest. And as I thought about that more I thought about you know, your non profit executive directors. Sometimes they’re too aggressive, they need to be reined in, and the board feels it. But it’s really the responsibility that share to give that feedback. On the other hand, some this wasn’t so much my fault, but some executive directors and CEOs are too cautious. I need to be pushed to be more aggressive and had Ah, And again that will come, uh, probably is the sense of the board, but often best conveyed by the chair. And initially, that may not be that well received, um, and and may create some tension. But again, there’s in all healthy relationships, especially this one. That’s that’s one of the aspects of it. And once I realized that and you see, I had the benefit when I was working with Susan, that I’d already been the chair of another non profit board. She had previously been the executive director of a nonprofit, so we kind of understood you

[00:48:12.53] spk_0:
had been in each other’s roles. Very important, always

[00:48:15.15] spk_4:
possible. But but but actually quite it valuable it You’ve kind of sat in that person’s, you know, chair and and you can understand a little bit more why they’re doing what they’re doing on DDE. And so that that tension just was, you know, was really part and parcel of a healthy relationship. Is, as I came to see, not didn’t see that you immediately

[00:48:36.62] spk_2:
too timid sometimes CEOs in what respect? Not aggressive. Just

[00:50:05.15] spk_4:
say, you know whether it’s setting their annual goals for, you know, whatever societal positive impact they want. Or some CEOs want a stockpile money rather than spend it on their programs of their team star of the organization. Just because they just they’re always worried about running out of money. So or sometimes it’s about, for example, keeping it a non performing employees on giving them one more chance that could go on for four or five years and on. And, you know, there was one case where I probably stuck with it. A chief operating officer longer than I should and a board chair came in and said, You know, when you’re gonna ease him out. You know, he’s creating a lot of dissension in the organization. Even that was raging, reaching the level of the board. And I needed to be pushed Thio to recognize that this person wasn’t performing and so get my errors would tend to be more about being too aggressive, too much of a risk taker, and I would need to be reined in. But like I had my examples where I was foot dragging and on the board. If the board doesn’t tell you that your your staff probably won’t directly on dhe. You know they’re the ones that to be a kind of observe your performance and push you. And of course, ultimate decision usually remains yours. But if you don’t follow that enough, you’ll find yourself out of a job at some point. And so if there’s a there’s a kind of a creative tension there,

[00:50:06.72] spk_0:
particularly staff won’t tell you if it’s the c 00 that we’re talking about. Yep, that’s the source.

[00:50:13.58] spk_2:
You liketo have staff participate, attend

[00:50:21.06] spk_0:
and participate board inboard means and not just the C suite. Yeah, that’s what

[00:50:21.61] spk_4:
I did something that people who it

[00:50:24.35] spk_2:
kind of

[00:50:51.40] spk_4:
naturally evolved in Grameen Foundation, where from when we had a very small staff initially is you know, I would have some staff that would present to the board. Maybe they weren’t as good at presenting his. I was. Maybe they were better, but but to give them that experience, to demystify what the board is by having them, and the board could see the quality of staff I had, whether it was, hopefully they were impressed. Sometimes they’re, like, you know, realize that you had why I had to step in and do this, but I ultimately not only had the senior staff as we grew, you know, sit around the board table and either present or observed, but I would say any available staff member quite radical. Could you sit in an outer ring and observe? And it just it had this kind of ability to demystify the board where a lot of non profit employees like

[00:51:08.63] spk_2:
What is

[00:52:23.45] spk_4:
the board do and they’re not doing enough. And what’s their role? And why do we have to work so hard to prepare these board meetings and when they can actually sit there and observe the board deliberating and we would we would go one step further, which is where a t end of the board meeting the board would all leave board members except for the chair, and I would facilitate a debrief with all the staff who were present. Summons might be 2025 staff members, and they could all say, I thought the board had a really intelligent conversation about that. I thought that they totally avoided this topic and had a really, you know, bad discussion about it, and we would just we wouldn’t try to argue them. And so it because a lot of people came to work for me, as I learned is that the board was this mysterious thing where the CEO would go off in a room and maybe the CFO would make a 45 minute presentation and then be ushered out of the room. And it just felt like a this kind of secret society that was making decisions about them that they had no visibility into. And I kind of went the other way of just absolute transparency, including sometimes the board. My staff would see the board grilling me, and they would see me sometimes perform well and defend their interests. You know, some board member wants a new program that made no sense, and I would say, No, we’re not gonna do that makes no sense. And sometimes they’d see me stumble. But again, it just made it more of a human, just just just a group of people trying to help us in a different type of role than you have and let them watch you at times and you get to watch them perform and evaluated and and so it just took all that mysteriousness out of it, and I thought was healthy. Now, at times, you know, I did. I have an occasional board member say, Well, what

[00:52:43.95] spk_2:
if we What if

[00:52:47.15] spk_4:
we close down this whole project? You know, maybe that would be a good idea. And then the people running that project sitting in the background Does it cause anxiety that you need to manage? Yes, there were. There were problems with that. But the benefits way far outweigh the costs in my mind.

[00:53:01.32] spk_0:
Okay. Interesting. Yeah, The typical is staff member of presents, and then is, as you said, ushered out. Yeah.

[00:53:12.65] spk_2:
All right. Awesome. Opening our minds. Um, you have some thoughts

[00:53:13.51] spk_0:
about upgrading aboard where we have, like, two minutes or so left or something. So

[00:53:18.60] spk_2:
we got a good

[00:53:19.21] spk_0:
Okay, we have about three minutes left up the timeto upgrade first. What do you mean by upgrading aboard? Well,

[00:54:16.61] spk_4:
I I believe that I’ve studied it. That about 80% of non profit boards in this country or some version of dysfunctional either micromanaging or only 80 or well, you think that low occasionally I say that I ask people who challenge me and more often it’s that they think it It’s more than that. But whatever most up a solid majority and the reason s O I. What I say is, Is that it? You know, if you’re upgrading, I’m saying, if you want to take a dysfunctional board to mediocre or a mediocre board too high performing it could be done. But you need to do a couple things. One. Is there no quick fixes? If anyone tells you they can turn a board materially increase their performance in 90 days, adopting you know, four techniques. It’s not gonna happen if if you want to increase the quality aboard materially, significantly mark your calendar 3 to 5 years in the future. And one of the things I most often hear from executive directors is, Well, I’m gonna wait for my board to start performing, and then I’ll really engage them on and support them. But they need to prove to me, and I said, No, that’s the wrong way. Look at it. You need to start treating them now. Whoever is on that treat them now is if they’re high performing, bored, invest in them that way and then given a couple years of lag time, they’ll emerge to be the board that you deserve. But you need to treat them now like they’re the board that you deserve, even though they’re not yet, um, and so

[00:54:47.20] spk_2:
that may just

[00:54:47.78] spk_4:
spending intensive time, helping to create real wins for them and a great experience of being on the board, which is gonna be different for each board member

[00:54:55.99] spk_0:
and challenging them to spend more time to get more responsibility.

[00:54:59.46] spk_2:
That’s right, but also

[00:55:00.20] spk_4:
making it making it pleasurable and enjoyable for them to do so not because their guilt or manipulation, but just out of a sense of opportunity. So again I go into in the book, I talk about how once that once I kind of got that at the care and feeding of board members. I think most executive directors and CEO spend probably could spend 3 to 4 times Maur of their time and effort in cultivating these board members. And the payback is immeasurable. But it’s it’s not gonna happen 90 days if if you’re if you’re gonna just read an article in the Stanford Social Innovation Review, apply a few techniques and then you know are they performing better in 90 days. It’s just not. That’s not how groups evolve and function. But if you do it over an extended period aboard, and then you just add one good new member a year. Ah, and they raised the level of everyone a little bit, and that’s that’s how this goes. But if you stick with it for a couple of years, it could be miraculous.

[00:55:59.64] spk_0:
We’re gonna leave it there. That’s outstanding. Is Alex counts his book again, changing the world without Losing your mind? Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship. You’ll find him at Alex counts dot com and at Alex,

[00:56:14.52] spk_2:
counts. Thanks so much, Thank you Pleasure. Next week, our Innovators,

[00:56:30.41] spk_0:
Siri’s continues with the return of Peter Shankman on neuro Diversity. What that means for you as an employer and for your employees, the those who are New road divergent. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:56:41.16] spk_2:
by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is

[00:56:59.82] spk_0:
there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative

[00:57:00.60] spk_2:
producer is Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:57:41.08] spk_5:
Sam Liebowitz is the line producer on the board shows. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York, with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for January 24, 2020: Social Change Is Systems Change

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My Guest:

Heather McLeod Grant: Social Change Is Systems Change
And to change systems, you need to employ networks. Those networks need leaders and facilitators. Enter Heather McLeod Grant. She is co-author of the workbook, “Leading Systems Change.”

 

 

 

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[00:00:14.34] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:00:35.42] spk_3:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our third show in the Innovators. Siri’s social change is systems change and to change systems, you need to employ networks. Those networks need leaders and facilitators. Enter Heather Macleod Grant. She’s co author of the workbook Leading systems change and here start the live innovators that I promised you were becoming.

[00:00:49.43] spk_2:
Here they are on tony Stake to

[00:00:54.17] spk_3:
planned giving for the decade Responsive by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:00:59.80] spk_2:
Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:32.39] spk_3:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Now let’s meet Heather Macleod Grant. She is co founder of Open Impact, a philanthropic advising farm and a published author, speaker and consultant with more than 25 years experience in social change. The company is at open impact dot Io, and she’s at H M C Grant. Welcome, Heather Macleod. Grant.

[00:01:41.61] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony. I’m excited to be here, and thanks for having me back on the show.

[00:02:00.52] spk_2:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. Absolutely. It’s good to have you back. Um, so this is interesting work. This system’s change for social change. Um, why don’t you, um, get us started? Well, let me lay a little.

[00:02:23.84] spk_3:
I should guess I should let a little ground work. So there were There were these two to programs in San Joaquin Valley in California. You inaugurated the 1st 1 in Fresno County, and then your co author, Roedean a Dean Sacks inaugurated the 2nd 1 status last county two years later. Um, what? So just lay a little simple ground work? Why don’t you give us an overview? You know, beyond that, what kinds of changes were needed? What’s the San Joaquin Valley like? And you know, of course, we have the hour together, so you don’t have to pack a tony detail in here.

[00:02:40.04] spk_4:
Yeah. Great. Absolutely. Um well, I’ll start by saying that I actually grew up in the San Joaquin Valley, California. I’m actually from Fresno. My family still lives there

[00:02:49.63] spk_2:
now live

[00:03:13.72] spk_4:
in the Bay Area of California. But I spent many formative years in that region, and, um, it’s the central part of the state of California. It’s actually quite unlike what I think most people imagine when they think of California. They probably think of Hollywood and palm trees and beaches in Southern Cal, and they might think about Silicon Valley and technology in the Bay Area. But

[00:03:14.70] spk_2:
the Central

[00:03:24.72] spk_4:
Valley is a big agricultural region, and, you know, as we learned, it actually has a lot of social and environmental challenges and problems. That’s sort of the beginning of the story, and I’m happy to get into more details about that.

[00:03:29.32] spk_2:
Okay, let’s let’s, uh, do a better job than I

[00:03:32.49] spk_3:
did. I mean, I just laid out basic details, but, you know, basic stuff. But let’s talk about what those communities air like. You talk about social environmental challenges. I think they’re pretty ubiquitous. But you, uh, you tell me if I’m wrong, you lay it out. What kind of challenges these social change makers needed to overcome?

[00:07:01.85] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. So Fresno, just situated Fresno is a community of just under a 1,000,000 people. If you include the kind of surrounding areas the city of Fresno has about half a 1,000,000. Resident Stanislas is about half that size, and they are into central counties in the central part of the state. I would say the big challenges air because it’s an agricultural region. They’ve struggled for a long time with air quality issues and water quality issues. You know, pesticides from farming running off into the water supply duct from agriculture, along with urban pollution blowing into the valley from the Bay Area and the Coast and Los Angeles. They also have many of the same problems confronting many states in the central part of our country in the Midwest. Opioid crisis very high poverty rate, seasonal migrant labor. So big immigrant populations which of course, leads to racial and ethnic diversity, which can be a strength. But many of these particularly Hispanic families living in smaller communities have very, very high unemployment rates. They don’t have good social service is. So I could go on, but many of the same kinds of problems that we’re seeing across the country and you add to that, you know, political polarization again, people think of California is being very liberal. But the central part of the state, the Central Valley, is actually quite conservative. There’s a strong evangelical base. You draft through the value. See lots of Trump signed. Um, historically, the politics have been more red than blue, so it’s kind of a red island in a blue state, if you will. And that’s also led Thio increasing tensions and conflicts politically. So that was the backdrop for this program. And when the Irvine Foundation about a decade ago was doing listening tours and I should explain the Irvine Foundation of a statewide foundation to give the way about $75 million a year in the state of California. They were particularly interested in funding and supporting the family King Valley because it was historically overlooked. It doesn’t have the same kind of wealth and philanthropic resources that the area or Southern California have. So they were really interested in investing in building local community leadership capacity, and they did a listening to her about a decade ago. They heard from leaders that we want to help solve problems in our community, but we don’t have the tools and resources and the know how to do that. So we would love for you to invest in us. That’s exactly what the Irvine Foundation did. They kicked off this program. They hired myself and the firm. I was out at the time to do some initial research. And I can get you more into what we learned about the communities that we did some research. We designed a program. And then we ran this leadership in capacity building program over the last six years in these two counties. As you noted, we started in Fresno for three years, and then we replicated the program in a neighboring community in Stanislaus County. So yeah,

[00:07:02.52] spk_2:
and that I’m

[00:07:03.17] spk_4:
excited to dig into more of that.

[00:07:05.68] spk_3:
Well, I want to thank you very much for being a guest. That’s all the time we have.

[00:07:13.86] spk_2:
Heather, come on. I’m joking. All right. Um, yeah, it’s hard to

[00:07:30.06] spk_3:
imagine. I’m sure they exist. Maybe utopian communities in the U. S. But, I mean, it’s hard to imagine a community that doesn’t have at least some of what you’re describing, Um, economically, racially, politically, environmentally. I feel like I said, I feel like these challenges are ubiquitous. If if not in every community. I think most communities are suffering from a least a couple. So I think this has enormous relevance for the for our country.

[00:07:52.15] spk_2:
Uh, okay, yeah. Um, so So you you brought together a bunch

[00:08:14.34] spk_3:
of selected leaders of NGOs in the Let’s let’s let’s not lump them together. Let’s start with you. Were you were the leader in Fresno and that was the That was the inaugural program. So you know, we’ll talk about that one. We’re

[00:08:14.48] spk_2:
going to go out

[00:08:16.79] spk_3:
for our first break, but lets you know when we come back. Let’s start talking about how isolation is not gonna lead to big changes. And you know what? The what the workbook is about the how to sound good. Sound good.

[00:08:30.03] spk_4:
Sounds good to me.

[00:08:32.25] spk_2:
Okay. And we need to take that

[00:08:46.01] spk_3:
first break wegner-C.P.As beyond the numbers, they’ve got videos. Do you have immigrant employees? They’ve got I nine tips, and I’m talking about some of those issues today. They’ve got high impact grant proposal video also, sexual harassment awareness and other videos. All in the resource section, wegner-C.P.As dot com. Quick resource is and recorded events.

[00:09:07.08] spk_2:
Let’s do the live love. I feel like doing it early today. So let’s shout out. Fairfield, Connecticut, Tampa, Florida, Miami, Florida, Philadelphia and Salt Lake City, Utah. Live listener love to each of our listeners there. Where’s New York? New York? I don’t see Well, I’m here. But where’s the rest

[00:10:41.34] spk_3:
of New York City? Um, going, Going outside the States. We’ve got Seoul, South Korea. Always such loyal listeners. South Korea Very grateful to you and your house. Oh, come so ham Nida and a Tokyo equally loyal Thank you so much Tokyo Konnichi wa And of course, But the live listener Love’s got to come the podcast Pleasantries. So I give you lots of Oh, I give you lots of, um, lots of thanks to our over 13,000 listeners in the podcast community wherever we fit into your schedule Weekly monthly Semiannual If you’re binging your podcasts together that that infrequently pleasantries to you I’m glad you’re with us And late breaking late breaking Ah, lifeless Their love of Vancouver, Vancouver, British Columbia. Live love to you, of course as well. All right. Thank you, Heather. That indulgence. We’ll have a couple more of those. I’ll always let you know when they’re coming up Okay, so you convene these selected leaders and you know, we listeners just have to get the book way. Can’t spend detail we can’t spend time on. You know how you selected or who. But suffice to say, it was not just a lottery, and you were You were thoughtful about the leaders you selected in the Fresno community, um, to try toe to try to teach them leadership because they can’t make the changes to the systems that they need to need to be changed. Working independently in isolation.

[00:10:50.24] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s right, tony. I think the big ah ha that we had when we did the initial research that informed the program design was initially the Irvine Foundation was thinking about supporting non profit leaders. And I know your show focuses a lot of non profit leaders, but one of our big insight was that non profit leaders cannot alone solve level problems.

[00:11:13.51] spk_2:
A

[00:12:21.35] spk_4:
lot of the structures that were living in our designed on and run through business, right, and the market economy or through government. So the resources of government and business are much larger than the resources of the nonprofit sector. And when we went out and did these initial interviews, we decided we really need to design across sector program. So I think that’s the biggest inside around the who we selected. We deliberately brought together leaders in the community, from the nonprofit sector, from the faith based sector from the business sector, including agricultural leaders from government, local government and county government. From media I could go on. So it was a very intentionally diverse group of leaders that we brought together. They all had proven track records in their community, but many of them were working kind of head down in their own silos and they weren’t seeing the bigger picture. They weren’t seeing how many of these things are interconnected. And so by bringing them together and putting them through this program, we helped them get out of their silos, begin to build relationships across the sector, lines begin. Thio collaborate across their differences, which included political differences but also ethnic cultural differences, age differences, gender differences and so on.

[00:12:41.83] spk_3:
And thank you. I I stated it too narrowly. It was way beyond just NGO leaders and you created the New Leadership Network and there was a lot of learnings around that. Let’s flush that out. What was that about?

[00:12:51.16] spk_4:
Sure. Well, we did we again. We didn’t want to just focus on management. So many leadership programs really focused on training leaders for a very particular context,

[00:13:02.31] spk_2:
like business

[00:14:28.25] spk_4:
leadership program or not, profit leadership program. We really wanted to look at community leadership and systems leadership. How do you actually help these leaders become agents of change in the larger context in the larger community and work on the big interrupt, seemingly intractable problems, environmental issues, poverty, income, inequality, etcetera? And to do that, we brought in a lot of the latest thinking in this sector. So we created a curriculum andan experience, and I want to say experience, because truly the program was experiential. We know that adults learn best through peer situations and through active learning, not just being lectured out for 10 hours with a bunch of power points lives. So we brought together frameworks around systems, thinking, helping them sort of do interactive exercises, toe, identify systems level problems in their communities and start to see from that bigger picture how these issues are interrelated and connected. We also brought in network thinking So this idea that you need to actually build networks to change systems systems are made up of people, and so you need to get groups of people collaborating and coordinating within the system to begin to change it. We brought in some design thinking from the D School at Stanford, because design thinking, you know, is a really interesting methodology that historically has been applied to business innovation and product innovation but increasingly is being applied to solving social problems. So the idea of going out into the community and doing user centered interviews, almost anthropological research to find out

[00:14:39.62] spk_2:
okay,

[00:15:28.04] spk_4:
what does it feel like to be, ah, young adult in the juvenile justice system in this community? And what can you learn from that? To begin to design new solutions? We also brought in an equity Lynn’s everything we did because we believe that without looking at how dynamics of power and erase and equity are playing out, it’s really hard to solve these problems. And then, lastly, we brought in things like coaching an individual leadership development. So those those were the kind of five pillars, if you will, of the program designed Systems Thinking Network thinking behind thinking equity and leader, individual leadership development. And together we created a program that ran for about nine days. So each of these leaders went through a smaller co court, convened for nine days over a period of six months where they did lots of interactive exercises, really built trust relationship, they

[00:15:38.68] spk_3:
So they met. They met three times for three days each, right over those six months. All right, OK. And how many individuals were in the first cohort in Fresno?

[00:15:48.11] spk_4:
Yeah, but we ran about between 12 and 15 per cohort.

[00:15:51.83] spk_2:
So it hold

[00:16:04.21] spk_4:
on, we ran for Coke. Or so we had about 50 leaders total in the community by the end of several years of the program. And it was about the same in Stanislaw Stanislaw. The code words were slightly larger, but we ended up with almost the total of 100. Individual leaders who’d come through this program in both communities over the course of five years

[00:16:20.14] spk_2:
could use a little more about the design thinking how that how that applies to this work. Yeah, absolutely. So

[00:16:22.38] spk_4:
the way I think of it, a system thinking is about being up on the balcony, if you will. This is Ron haIf. It’s great leadership. Goober out of Harvard, who writes about this being on the balcony and having that kind of bird’s eye perspective looking down on the dance

[00:16:35.72] spk_2:
floor

[00:17:48.41] spk_4:
restart to see the pattern and the dynamic issues going on in the community. I think of design thinking as being down on the dance floor like it’s really grounded and individual experiences. And so by bringing those two together those two perspectives the kind of bird’s eye view and the deeply grounded perspective of how individuals experience their community, you can actually start to create really interesting and creative solutions. So 18 fax, who wasn’t able to join on the call today but was my colleague and running this program and she has you mentioned, launched the Stanislas replication sight. She had spent a year is a fellow at the Stanford design School that has no partner school of design, and you can look that up online. And they have really interesting programs where they’ve gotten quite interested in how you take design. Thinking which is simply a process, is structuring a problem in getting very creative about innovating solutions around that problem. She’s gone through a year. Fellowship the D school. We thought this is a really interesting methodology and tool that we think could be applied to solving community level problems. So the D school doing some of that work we’re doing network? There are other practitioners around the country who started using design thinking as a tool for innovation and creative problem solving in the social sector and around social and environmental problems. Not just technology problems or product design.

[00:18:05.15] spk_3:
You interested? You call it the D school? Um, but you’re only saving one syllable design or d you feel strongly about D school? We have to stick with the school is okay if I say design?

[00:18:14.94] spk_4:
Oh, it’s totally fine. That’s that’s just the shorthand that

[00:18:21.09] spk_2:
everybody calls. Okay, if

[00:18:21.27] spk_3:
I was if I was local and I’m an outsider, I see. Okay. Okay.

[00:18:29.97] spk_5:
Um uh, okay, um,

[00:18:31.40] spk_2:
so you’re trying to move

[00:18:57.11] spk_3:
these leaders from sort of scattered action in isolation into connection connected action, and you mentioned a little about empathy, and but I see that that’s got among these among them. The individual groups, the 12 or 15. You’ve got to build a lot of a lot of trust and empathy. I would think for them to be working, working together as a as a formative network going forward.

[00:19:31.11] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s where, like, the book we really designed, the book is a workbook. We wanted to kind of open source this model and share the frameworks and the tools and the methods that we used in this leadership programs so that other communities will hopefully access, hit and think about how they might use some of this in their own communities. But this, um, yeah, this question of how the leader is, you know, built trust really came down to taking the time to slow down and intentionally build relationships and have them get to know one another at a deeper level,

[00:19:39.99] spk_2:
like getting

[00:20:52.29] spk_4:
beyond superficial things like your resume or your job title or even what political party you have. Will he ate with. So we began the weekend, You know, we would do these convening that retreat centers up in the mountains. We get them out of their day to day. Um and we really started with these very, very personal introductions where people would talk about why they do what they do so their interior motivations, what they’re passionate about, what really drives their work in the world. And when you get past a lot of the partisan rhetoric and the sound bite, the way our immediate typically framed these issues, you actually find that we all have so much in common. We want healthy communities. We want to raise our kids in safe spaces. We want everyone to have opportunities to succeed. Um, you know, we want good health care systems and good education system and, you know, by by grounding it in those personal stories at the very beginning, people were incredibly vulnerable and, you know, they would tell very personal stories about, you know, just one participant that comes to mind. And Fresno, who’d grown up in a low income immigrant community whose mom was a migrant worker across the border, came here, and he grew up in a community where there were no sidewalks. There was no running water like there were no service is. I mean, it’s like 1/3 world country and, you know, hearing those stories was incredibly moving. Um, and again, I don’t care what your political persuasion is. A lot of This was about starting to build those alliances across traditional party lines, not making it about politics, but making it about people coming together to build trust, to build relationships and the link arms to solve problems in their communities.

[00:21:36.49] spk_3:
Yeah, you hit on such fundamental core values that I think every American shares opportunity, access to education, health care, equity. I mean, I think, Yeah, I think we all want these things. It’s then the divisions come about and we’re talking about how to achieve them,

[00:21:47.89] spk_2:
right? Exactly and okay. And

[00:23:23.44] spk_4:
we see that playing out the national level. And I think that’s one of the things you know. I spent my whole career in and around social change, and for a long time I really worked with big national organizations. I lived in D. C. For four years. I have lots of friends working in politics, and, you know, one of the beauties of being grounded and local community is actually when you get the local level, this is much less partisan. You know, we might disagree sometimes about the means to the end, but if you take it out of the context of policy debates and you actually start talking about, Like, practically speaking, what can we do to reduce homelessness in our community? Or what can we do to reduce income inequality? What can we do to make sure that kids have access to education so they could be contributing members to our society? Be economically productive, have a good life? Um, it takes it out of that kind of national divisiveness that we’re seeing so much on the news. And it really grounds in the context of local communities, which in some ways I feel like this is this is the great history of America, right? This is what the total was writing about more than 100 years ago. Um, you know, when when people in communities came together and build barns and solved their local problems without a lot of federal top down kind of intervention, you know, they had to be resourceful, and they had to be scrappy, and they had to be collaborative. And so in some ways, I think it’s getting back to that perspective of taking it away from the national polarization and grounding it in very practical problem solving. I’m

[00:23:23.60] spk_2:
not

[00:23:29.88] spk_4:
turning it into policy debates. In fact, we actually did not have elected leaders go through the program. We in Fresno. Um, we experimented that without a little more in Stanislas, we had a mirror in the program. What we found is, if you have elected officials, they can’t be truly

[00:23:40.27] spk_2:
horrible. Honest.

[00:23:52.73] spk_4:
They end up posturing more so So we actually found that it was better. Just have leaders who you might be some people who work in and around politics or previously been elected or might in the future, run for office. But there is something about the way we’ve constructed politics in our country right now that, um, you know, they just have to be so much posturing

[00:24:02.87] spk_2:
and concerned

[00:24:03.84] spk_4:
about money and re election, and that could be pretty toxic.

[00:24:07.81] spk_2:
So

[00:24:13.44] spk_4:
we really focused on leaders who were much more interested in the practical solution side of things.

[00:24:21.74] spk_3:
Yeah. I could absolutely see that. You know, there’s a persona for politicians that can’t be broken. You know what? Unless they’re in their home. I guess so. I could understand that, But you experimented. You know, this is all that. This is all a work in progress. You make that clear in the book there. There’s you learned. You learned a lot from Fresno to Stannis Laos, and there’s more to be learned. Um,

[00:24:36.98] spk_2:
yeah, so So you lived in Washington,

[00:24:38.92] spk_3:
D. C. For four years. So you were an East coaster for a while.

[00:24:42.64] spk_4:
I was

[00:24:43.14] spk_2:
I went to

[00:25:05.15] spk_4:
school in Boston, so I grew up in Fresno. I went back east to college in Boston, and then I was in Washington, D C. For four years right out of college. And I also spent two years in between in Europe. I had a rotary scholarship to study abroad and ended up working for the helpful of Europe in Strasbourg a long time ago.

[00:25:06.17] spk_2:
Okay, Yes. I

[00:25:07.52] spk_4:
have to meet experience and some international experience before landing back in California.

[00:25:12.45] spk_2:
OK, I’m just trying to focus on our differences. Now I’m a

[00:25:28.44] spk_3:
divider. So I either East coast sentiment is West Coast sentiment. I I’m trying to divide us the counter act. Your counteract your work, work. I’m working on either side. No, Um,

[00:25:36.34] spk_2:
you need to laugh. More help. Come on. How can I possibly be serious about this? Come on, come on. What were you saying? What did you say? Oh,

[00:25:38.27] spk_4:
I was just gonna say I might be bicoastal for most of my life, but I was actually born in Lincoln, Nebraska. So at my core, I’m a corn.

[00:25:45.63] spk_2:
I thought you

[00:25:46.23] spk_3:
were born in Fresno. Oh, okay. Your Midwestern.

[00:25:48.66] spk_4:
I was raised in

[00:25:49.59] spk_2:
front of my parents. Moved

[00:25:57.33] spk_4:
out there when I was three weeks old. My dad actually taught at the local university president State. He’s now retired, but, um, yes, you gotta He got a job there and moved out in the late sixties when I was a baby.

[00:26:07.03] spk_3:
Okay, so you’ve been East West and Midwest. Um,

[00:26:07.82] spk_2:
let’s talk about

[00:26:08.44] spk_3:
the guy. We it framework before we wait. We got a couple minutes before next next break. So the guy we had framework that was part of the new leadership network. Explain that a little bit.

[00:28:42.19] spk_4:
Sure. Yes. This is really just a shorthand, simple way of thinking about the different levels of the local systems that we were working on for us. The eye is like the leader, right? The individual Who are you as a leader? How do you show up? What is your You know, kind of, um, you know what? Your core values And how do you live that out? So one of the big lessons from Fresno to Stanislas was and Fresno. We were initially much more focused on the week for the network level, and then the system level the level, and we realized we were missing an opportunity to help these leaders build their own individual skills. So we brought an individual coaching as the court component of the program in Stanislaus again, as you said, we were iterating and learning and making adjustments as we went, which, by the way, is very much in the spirit of design thinking. It’s about iterating and constant improvement and refinement. The we is really the network level. So when we talk about, we were like, Who’s the greater we in a community who are the leaders are gonna join, you know our forces and solve problems. And so for us that we was actually building those relationships and building this network that cut across all of these lines of difference. Cut across sector, Silas cut across ethnic and racial difference, cut across political differences and so on. So the we was really about the network and, you know, I can talk a little bit later. If you’re interested in terms of how we evaluated, what impact we saw, Um, and then it was really the system level. So what are you know, the big problems that we’re trying to solve? What is the objective of our coming together and building our leadership skills? Building these relationships? It’s to solve these problems. So the it was kind of the container for thinking about, you know, everything from, um, racial justice in, you know, local law enforcement systems thio creating early childhood development programs to give low income kids. You know, that head started that boost, that they need to be ready for kindergarten. So we saw all kinds of different collaborations and projects emerge from this program. And that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about the it is the work itself. And you know, the projects in the programs that were driving direct impact on the community. And I hope after the next break, tony, I’d love to talk a little bit about some of the impact that we were seeing on these different levels.

[00:28:45.32] spk_2:
We’re gonna get to impact. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Uh um, it may not be right

[00:30:13.22] spk_3:
after the break, though. Give me a chance. I want to flush out. I want to flush out of them or I we it. But we gotta take this break right now. Quote. We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they are always there to help walk me through it. End quote. That’s Sally Hancock in Altoona, Pennsylvania. More raves about the Cougar Mountain customer service. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page for Cougar Mountain accounting software, and you’ll find that at now time for Tony’s Take Two. Your Decade Plan for planned giving. It’s not only the beginning of a new year, of course, but, ah, new decade. So my thinking was, What if you started planned giving in 2020. You kicked off your plans giving fundraising program this year. How far could you be by 2029? Very far. You’ll be amazed at what you could be doing over the next 10 years and in the 10th year, if you start your plan giving program this year, you and I hear this so many times I’m guessing if you don’t have. If you’re not engaged in planned giving, you probably are cursing your predecessors for not having started it 10 years ago, so you don’t want to be cursed by your successors. So if you start in 2020 you can be offering all different kinds of gift vehicles way beyond the request that I always urge you to start with.

[00:30:26.07] spk_2:
You could in 10 years you

[00:30:57.74] spk_3:
could even be at the point where you’re forecasting planned giving revenue based on the years prior. So I say a lot more about this in a decade plan. I’ve got your decade plan for planned giving. It’s in the video, and the video is at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony Steak, too. Now let’s go back to social change his system to change our third entry in the innovators. Siri’s talking with Heather Macleod Grant, co author of the book leading systems Change.

[00:31:06.44] spk_2:
Okay, Heather, Um, so the you’re you’re I training. I just wanna make

[00:31:10.18] spk_3:
a few points that stood out for me, the not the I training, but the eye component of the highway. Yet you’re

[00:31:19.54] spk_2:
clear to say that it’s not, as you did

[00:31:26.67] spk_3:
say, earlier. But I want Oh, I like to hit points home out of maybe I bludgeoned points to death, but it’s not. It was not individual management management training. Not not about heroics and individual is, um, you make that point?

[00:32:39.14] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. So we It’s interesting. There’s been a whole body of work around in the social sector. Run Collective impact. Right? Collaboration like that’s been a huge thing for the last decade. Distance changed systems leadership. There was an article written in Stanford Social Innovation Review a few years back by FSG writing about systems leaders with Peterson Gay, who’s a great system sinker and theorist out of M I T. Um, So when we designed this program, we were very intent on thinking about leaders who are giving back and want to lead to change systems, not leaving for their own ego, not leading to get to the top of the career ladder, not leading with a really hierarchical kind of mindset, but really leading with a systems mindset or a collaborative mindset. So we, of course, designed the eye components very differently from a number of traditional leadership programs. But this is not just about elevating yourself above everybody else. Uh, this is really about being someone who could bring others together in the community

[00:32:45.45] spk_3:
who can

[00:32:55.47] spk_4:
facilitate hard conversations who can help create a shared vision who can help people collaborate and build trust, um, and can help move these groups forward across these diverse lines. And so, systems leadership really is quite different than how I think we traditionally think of leadership. Like the kind of heroic individual the Shackleton, you know, I’m gonna get to the North Pole. Um, no matter what and on. So So we really drew under the whole body of work. And I don’t want to bore your listeners with all the theory, But there’s a whole body of work around servant leadership systems, leadership network leadership that were really drew upon to inform kind of the model of leadership we were trying to instill in these folks.

[00:33:34.74] spk_3:
Well, this is my listeners need to get the book because the resource is air listed. Uh, why don’t we make it explicit? We’ll say it again. If I forget to say it at the end, you can remind me to say that you can just say again how dear listeners get the book

[00:33:47.88] spk_4:
so they can go to the website new leadership network dot org’s Just Google It. Or if you, Google leading systems change the title of the book, it should come up in a Google search. It will take you right to that website platform for the New Leadership Network, where on the home page you’ll see a very obvious link to download the book. You can also go to the Open Impact Website, my firm, open impact dot io and under our thought leadership, an inside page. There’s also willing to download the book

[00:34:20.12] spk_2:
removed

[00:34:20.43] spk_4:
multiple ways. But if you Google leading systems change should be one of the top links

[00:34:25.67] spk_3:
are just new leadership network dot org’s.

[00:34:30.66] spk_2:
Okay, okay, Now, in the in the week

[00:34:38.61] spk_3:
component of this, you make the point again. Something struck me. Stood out for me was that working in community in network goes back to ancient times.

[00:36:18.13] spk_4:
Yes, so we don’t pretend that we have invented something brand new. I think you know, human nature is, you know, the very core were tribal and social people, right? We lived in tribes before we formed cities before we formed city states before we formed nations. Um and so at our core, I think human beings are social living community. But what I think is different over the last few decades through sociology, social network analysis on a lot of these new tools that we use network mapping, which is just a kind of fun hi tech tool where you can actually show the linkages between people increasing over time. You could start to quote unquote measure social capital in a community. I know I’m geeking out a little bit, but we really used again a lot of the the frameworks and theories around network and social networks and how relationships get formed to inform how we helped these leaders, you know, build built this community locally and again. There’s examples of the different tools, and resource is in the book. But I think at the core, you know, if you think about LinkedIn, I know Facebook is kind of in the dog house these days. But if you think about the theory underpinning online social networks, it’s not actually that different. I think the biggest difference is when you’re working in face to face networks and people living in a shared community not just online. It’s not just virtual, you know, they see each other at the grocery store. They run into each other,

[00:36:21.14] spk_2:
like having kids

[00:36:35.87] spk_4:
at the same school. They have a shared context, and they have shared problems that they want to solve. And so that was kind of the backdrop, for for bringing people together and very intentionally helping them start to build this trust and understanding with one another in a shared understanding of their community, so that they could start to collaborate on problems.

[00:36:48.38] spk_2:
And in the end, the systems that that is not part

[00:36:50.78] spk_3:
of sort of Western thinking and teaching to think of the system, the systems that were trying to impact.

[00:37:01.43] spk_4:
Yeah, So it’s interesting Western thinking, you know, historically, the kind of

[00:37:06.67] spk_2:
scientific break

[00:39:17.37] spk_4:
a problem down into its smallest component parts. And if you look a like academic framework is all about specialization specialization, you become a very specific expert at a very specific thing. Systems thinking is almost the opposite. It’s about seeing the big picture. I would argue that, you know, yes, it has sort of flavors of Eastern thinking in Yang Dynamics, but it’s actually been a part of our history and culture as well. If you look a TTE, for example, environmental sciences, they look at ecosystems. They look at how you know that the whole video online that went viral around the wolves in Yellowstone and how reintroducing wolves into an ecosystem actually fundamentally changed the course of the river’s right, which is kind of mind boggling. But you actually look at the way things interact with one another. The systems thinking is about the inter relationship of different dynamic systems and how you know kind of cause and effect moved on, how certain things influence other things. Um, so so looking at systems thinking, you know, and by the way, that engineers think in terms of systems, you know the Internet is the system, if you will. Capitalism is our democracies system. It’s got lots of component parts parts. So by looking at systems, you actually start to see the inter relationship of things and not see things in isolation, as we’ve often been taught in school, where you have very specific subjects and they’re all in their boxes. So it’s a much more interdisciplinary ways, thinking it’s a much more holistic way of thinking and again, it really focuses on how things are in a related like for example, you know, I’ve done a lot of work in early childhood development space. We now know that if a child is growing up with trauma in a community where there’s violence or where they may not have a regular parental presence or there’s a lot of instability that’s actually impacting their brain, which impacts how they perform in school, which impacts whether or not they can become a self sufficient, contributing citizen, right and hold down a job. So these air, these are complex systems that were working in. And I think we would, um, do better if we actually look att, these some of these issues much more holistically and start to see those interconnections.

[00:39:32.62] spk_3:
I feel like other other countries. Other cultures are further ahead in their thinking then and teachings then then we are in this respect.

[00:39:41.98] spk_4:
Well, it’s interesting. I mean, that’s really interesting question. I haven’t thought about it that much in terms of the international context. I do know there was a whole again we didn’t invent any of these frameworks. We actually drew upon whole bodies of literature and deep research and deep theory on practice. The system thinking has actually been around for 2030 years. There was a great author named Danela Meadows, who was writing about environment and climate change, which is is perhaps the definition of a systems problem. Climate change is not one thing

[00:40:12.16] spk_2:
driving it.

[00:40:42.72] spk_4:
It’s many, many, many things. It’s the way we set up economic incentives so that companies complete but not have to pay for the the impact of that pollution, right? It’s the way we’ve set up consumption, people ordering things to their house and Amazon, which leaves more packaging with, you know, I could go on and on, but again, it’s kind of looking at that problem more holistically. So that’s been around, particularly in environmental field for quite a long time. And systems dynamics also again informed things like how the Internet was designed. It’s been around for a while, but it’s perhaps not a mainstream. It does tend to be a little bit academic and a little bit wonky, and I’ve worked with some of these folks who have Ph. D’s and systems thinking, and they want to build the really complex, dynamic models like that spaghetti diagram of Afghanistan in The New York Times about a decade ago is the perfect example. So it tends to be a little wonky. Therefore, it hasn’t gotten as much mainstream traction. Um, yeah.

[00:41:11.68] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Um, so the let’s transition

[00:41:18.49] spk_3:
to the impact. Um, and we just have about two minutes now before break before our for our final break.

[00:41:22.56] spk_2:
So on the on the individual side and we’ll get to the communities as well. But on the individual side, what kind of

[00:41:29.03] spk_3:
changes did you see as people went through the new leadership network?

[00:41:49.47] spk_4:
So a lot of different changes. We tracked this mostly through self reported survey. So again, it’s, you know, it’s it’s not perfectly scientific, it’s not as objective is measuring, you know, physical changes. But we did. We did track changes over time and individual leaders, and we we saw a lot of different things. So first of all, many of them self reported much greater confidence in their leadership abilities, thehe bility to actually talk about and understand community problems and bring people together to solve those problems. So we have lots of data on that, just in terms of they built new skills, they enhance their confidence. They felt more optimistic

[00:42:15.29] spk_2:
about

[00:43:02.20] spk_4:
solving problems in their community. They no longer felt so isolated or alone. We also saw external changes, like about more than half of the leaders and the president. Network changed job. Who’s in the 1st 2 years? Which is kind of interesting. I mean, I know we live in a society where people don’t tend to, you know, be the 30 years lifer at companies anymore. That world no longer exists. Then there is much more fluid ity. But what we saw with people after getting promoted into position within the community, where they might have been the vice president or an associate director at a non profit. They were then promoted to be the executive director of C E. O as an example, or they were hired to run a new, bigger organization. So we saw career changes. We also saw them joining boards and commissions. At one point, we tracked the number of different boards that leaders of the New Leadership Network and president had joined in. It was pretty astonishing, like they were all recruiting each other for different boards and commissions, and they were also starting to put their names forward to join public commissions being run by the city or the county government so that, you know, it’s almost like we created a leadership pipeline

[00:43:24.35] spk_2:
for

[00:43:25.12] spk_4:
the community by identifying these leaders, lifting them up, giving them skills. And then they got they started to be tapped by other people and other organizations in the community.

[00:43:35.90] spk_2:
Well, they trust each other. They know each

[00:44:11.13] spk_3:
other there. They’ve gotten beyond you know, as you said, beyond the superficial T know that these they they want to promote themselves and each other in the community. So you know that they’re proposing that they’re proposing each other for leadership is it’s gratifying. But based on everything you’re describing, it seems like it would be, it seems obvious that would happen. I know, you know. I’m not saying you should have predicted it just everything. The way you describe it and having read the book, it’s a beautiful outcome. Radio put it

[00:44:18.30] spk_2:
that way. All right, let me take this last break turn to communications. Did you ever wonder

[00:44:43.64] spk_3:
how some nonprofits always get mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them and their issues turned to can help you do that. Their former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy, build meaningful relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for social change is systems change.

[00:44:50.28] spk_2:
Let’s talk some about

[00:44:52.97] spk_3:
the, um, the community impact that you saw I love. I gotta shout out the one in Stanislavs there was a campaign. That shit is rigged.

[00:45:03.59] spk_2:
Ship is rigged campaign. You don’t start

[00:45:04.82] spk_3:
with that one, but I definitely want to flush it out. What did you see in the communities?

[00:45:09.35] spk_4:
Well, that one in particular was about getting more minority candidates to run for elected office

[00:45:14.31] spk_2:
because a

[00:45:14.67] spk_4:
lot of people of color who went through the network were frustrated that, you know, like many communities, I think President Stanislas has often been governed by people who sort of looked a certain way, came from a certain background.

[00:45:28.03] spk_3:
You know what

[00:45:28.45] spk_2:
I have been for eternity

[00:45:29.71] spk_4:
together in college

[00:45:30.85] spk_3:
white, middle aged man,

[00:45:52.72] spk_4:
mostly older, mostly boomer, mostly male, mostly white backgrounds. And so some of these people of color and Stanislas decided we need to start teaming up supporting one another to run for local elected office so we can have more diverse leadership that actually looks like the community. It looks like the demographics of the community. Look, just one example there are. There are hundreds of examples, and again we go into more detail in the book. But I’ll just pull out a couple of of my favorites and

[00:46:00.04] spk_2:
talk about

[00:47:37.50] spk_4:
the impact. One Partnership and Fresno, for example, started really working on early childhood development. There was a pre existing network in the community doing this work, but they started to come up with all kinds of creative ways to engage new participants in helping get low income kids ready for kindergarten. So they actually trained moms. They help moms in low income neighborhoods train other moms on preparing their Children for school, reading to them, helping them learn the alphabet, helping them get ready to start school. And just a couple of months, the program led 138 parent education workshop. That’s just one example. Another example in Stanislas was where police officers, um were, you know, historically the relationship between communities of color and law enforcement have not been so great. So, um, a team and Stanislas brought together through the Sheriff’s department brought together law enforcement officers with community members to talk about some of the challenges and problems around racial profiling. You know, shooting. You know, these shootings that are happening, black and brown boys and men of color and so on. And by having that dialogue, they really started to think about how they could change their training program for law enforcement officers and experiment with new ways of training them to be much more sensitive communities that they’re working in. And then one of their last example. I think that was great. In standard crosses, the county department launched an initiative to identify the 150 individuals who had the highest hospital, psychiatric and emergency room admissions. And again, we see

[00:47:41.39] spk_2:
this in

[00:47:41.65] spk_4:
every community where it’s often just a very small percentage of the population of homeless people were actually driving the most cost on the system

[00:47:51.80] spk_2:
because

[00:48:19.73] spk_4:
they’re cycling in and out of emergency rooms and medical care because of mental illness or substance abuse. So what? So they reached out to 10 of these individuals of the county department did and did interviews and really tried to understand their situation and used that input to actually think about design, a program that was actually much more responsive. I sort of got to root causes of working with these individuals, helping them connect to the support that they needed to address the underlying health issues and to get off the streets. So those are just a couple examples. Again, there’s many, many Maurine, the book and, you know, in President we saw 80 different projects and collaboration started by members of the network in just the first few years. So really fascinating how, when you bring them together, you empower them. You give them relationships and support and the common tool kit they can. And then you turn them loose on their community. They start doing really, incredibly innovative things.

[00:49:08.58] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s awesome. Uh, they’re uplifting to read, and you’re right. There are a lot more examples in the book. Let’s talk. We gotta balance the rest of our times, like seven minutes or so between challenges and opportunities going forward, so I don’t wanna spend too much on either one. So let’s start with some of the challenges like you talk about patients money. Let’s spend a couple of minutes talking about what you see some of the challenges going forward.

[00:49:50.80] spk_4:
Yeah, well, the problem itself has completed. So one of the challenges in our sector and I think anybody who works for a nonprofit out there will certainly identify with this. The Irvine Foundation changed their strategy. They had new leadership come in about five years ago, and they went through a whole strategic planning process. And they decided to focus on specifically targeting programs, dealing with income inequality and creating career pathways an opportunity for low income families. So this program no longer fit into their new strategy. They sunsetted it, the money ran out. So we’re no longer actively running the program. Although what I would say is that these networks have been embedded in the community and in Stanislas in particular, we partnered with the community Foundation is kind of the host of this work, and they’re continuing the work without Irvine funding. Without US leaders, it’s almost like we came in. We catalyzed it. But

[00:50:12.07] spk_2:
now

[00:51:02.84] spk_4:
work continues, the relationships continue, but I will say that for anybody seeking to replicate this in other communities. Having the funding to bring in professional facilitation, I think, really matters. Umm, having the ability to bring in a backbone organization or a host organization like the Stanislaus Community Foundation also really, really helps to embedded in the community. We were outside consultant living in the Bay Area. I mean, I was from Fresno, and you, the context really well and growing up, there are still a family there. I’m still an outsider. I’m still living in the berry, I don’t know the day in and day out. So having someone in the community who you know really, really embedded, I think helps, um, with that transition from the formal part of the program to kind of maintaining the momentum after the program ends. So those are just a couple of the things that we’ve seen Think for other communities looking at doing this, you know, definitely finding some funding, finding a host organization that combined maybe a neutral into be not trying to impose their own issue our agenda.

[00:51:16.56] spk_2:
But

[00:51:50.27] spk_4:
the platform for this work happen. And then I think also lastly, I think really critical to bring in equity limbs to this work we learned a lot of hard lessons about that. In Fresno, we had an all white training team. We weren’t really talking openly about racial dynamics power dynamics because, you know, this is hard stuff, and in Stanislas, we totally changed it up. We brought in a much more diverse team, and we really started intentionally bring conversations about race and power and equity into the room, because that’s really at the heart of a lot of where the system’s kidding stuck. So there would be some of the challenges for communities wanting to tackle things would be.

[00:52:12.04] spk_3:
The book is very clear about your very honest about the lessons you learned from Fresno to Stanislaus. Like you mentioned, having a backbone organization seems critical, etcetera. End the diversity of the the facilitators. Alright, so good. Thank you. That was concise. Thank you very much. Um,

[00:52:16.40] spk_2:
let’s let’s talk about some of the opportunities.

[00:52:21.99] spk_3:
I mean, you know, you when you mentioned those impacts, it seems like the opportunities air vast for for a community toe to take something like this on.

[00:53:58.82] spk_4:
Yeah, I do. I mean, look again. We had a little bit of the Irvine Grant left and we decided you know the best thing we could to for the, you know, the program itself. And President Stanislas isn’t going to continue, but but there’s no reason the work can’t continue. Right? So we took the remainder of the grant and used it to write up this workbook so that we could open source it and put it out there and encourage other communities to experiment with this, um, and try starting something like this on their own on the reason I say that is you know, I do think there’s a huge opportunity in this country right now. I mean it, You know, for anyone listening, is an activist running a non profit, you know, even working in philanthropy. This is a very hard time, right? We’re a difficult moment as a country with political polarization, rising income inequality. Um, you know, massive challenges around climate change around the opioid praises around systems like health care and education, that air just not performing as well as they should. So I think the positive the silver lining to all of the problems is these are also huge opportunities for people to get really creative. Stop doing business as usual. Stop doing what we’ve been doing in the past. It’s not working and start to really dig in and look at these problems and think about how we can collectively solve them. I mean, I think if I, you know, left your listeners with, you know, sort of a parting thought. You know, the way I think about this these days is there’s nobody coming to save us. We’re not gonna look to Washington to save us, right? Not have a thing with Washington’s pretty much tied up in a political impeachment trial at the moment.

[00:54:06.79] spk_2:
So what

[00:54:51.33] spk_4:
can we do in our communities to empower ourselves and to identify those people who are already cut out for community leadership, who perhaps have the emergent and nascent abilities? But they just haven’t been lifted up. They haven’t been lifted up within the community. They haven’t been able to connect to the other leaders that they really mean to be in solidarity with the tackle these problems. So yeah, so I think that’s my hope and my optimism is around the potential for this work in other communities and look different communities are already starting to lose it in very different ways. I know David Brooks had a convening of people working at the community level, you know, about a year ago in D. C or six months ago in Washington, D. C. And we’re seeing other communities that air coming up with innovative ways all in their own default these problems. So I think that’s where the hope is. I think we need to then identify these bright spots and start lifting them up so that we can all learn from these experiments. On the ground.

[00:55:07.74] spk_3:
Have the Macleod Grant, co founder of Open Impact. You’ll find them at open impact dot io. She’s at H M C Grant. You’ll get the, uh, the book ah free download Has Heather said at, um, New Leadership network dot or GE. I’m very sorry that Ah Dean couldn’t be with us. But Heather, thank you so much.

[00:55:27.82] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony.

[00:55:31.16] spk_3:
Thanks very much for sharing. We

[00:55:31.28] spk_2:
got late Breaking live Listener Love, Fukuoka, Japan Falls Church, Virginia, Burnaby, California Rahmbo Way, France. I apologize if that’s bad. San MATEO, California

[00:55:43.94] spk_3:
I know I said that right.

[00:55:45.29] spk_2:
Berlin, Germany. Good and dog, Germany to two inch Berlin. Good dog and young son,

[00:55:51.75] spk_3:
Korea on your house. Oh, comes a ham Nida,

[00:55:57.00] spk_2:
Thank you so much for joining us next week.

[00:56:04.02] spk_3:
Our innovators, Siri’s continues with the return of Peter Shankman on new road diversity. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:56:09.45] spk_2:
Responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the

[00:56:38.19] spk_3:
numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com What I just realized Peter Shankman is not on next week. He’s on two weeks from now. So, uh, next week is Alex counts. Sorry about that, Alex. Yes, Alex counts is next week. And then in two weeks of Peter Shankman, you know how to see how desperately I needed an intern to blame for this shit. That’s unbelievable. Unbelievable. Let’s start again with the sponsors. Bye wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:56:42.75] spk_2:
Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:56:44.46] spk_3:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial

[00:56:59.80] spk_2:
and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producer is Claire

[00:57:04.98] spk_1:
Meyerhoff. If she’s still willing to do the show after this. Oh my God, Sam Lee Woods is a line producer. He’ll probably still be around shows. Social Media’s By Susan Chavez I hope she stays. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. Help Male? He’s probably good, and this music is by Scott Stein licensed it. So he’s not going anywhere

[00:57:19.81] spk_2:
with me next week for non profit radio big non

[00:57:40.31] spk_1:
profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2020: Personalized Philanthropy

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My Guest:

Steven Meyers: Personalized Philanthropy
It’s his 3 killer apps for fundraising that make Steven Meyers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remain largely outside the mainstream, for no good reason. (Originally aired 6/17/16)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome

[00:01:22.90] spk_2:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. The Innovators. Siri’s continues this week, as last week was, our first continues this week. Now, every show is not gonna be an innovator. Show like next week will not be an innovator, but the innovators air peppered in on and the others are brilliant guests that have very smart ideas to share. Just not quite innovators. Okay, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our second show in the Innovators. Siri’s personalized philanthropy and live innovators are coming. I promise. It’s his three killer APS for fundraising that make Steve Myers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remained largely outside the mainstream for no good reason that originally aired June 17th 2016 on tony Stake to planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cook, a Mountain software Denali fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is personalized Philanthropy

[00:01:49.24] spk_3:
I’m very pleased that Steve Myers is here in the studio for the hour. He is vice president of the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science and author of the book Personalized Philanthropy. Crash. The Fundraising Matrix. He’s a frequent and popular speaker, and he’s at Steven Myers. 863 S T e v E N N e Y E R s Welcome, Stephen Meyers. Welcome to the studio.

[00:02:17.49] spk_4:
I love tony.

[00:02:23.58] spk_3:
Glad to have you in person. I love it here. Glad you’re here. Um, let’s start with the basics with the title. What is this Matrix That you want people to crash?

[00:02:48.34] spk_4:
Yes, the book is called Crash The Fundraising Matrix. Because, um, it reflects what my experience was when I I I was in the process of writing the book when I realized all along that I’d been living in these two cultures that were completely unaware of each other and the Matrix. The movie The Matrix is the perfect metaphor for describing these two cultures. If you remember in the movie

[00:02:57.42] spk_3:
you have to describe, I didn’t see the movie

[00:03:07.71] spk_4:
in the movie. People were taken over by cybernetic implants, robots, machines that rebelled against humanity. And they existed only in, ah, like in a computer matrix. And everybody in the Matrix was really unaware of it. They just thought that everything was normal. They were living in their normal lives, and they didn’t realize that they were kind of being held prisoners, that they were enslaved in a sense. And that’s what the movie is about. When this one person that called Neo the one wakes up to the fact that he’s living in this synthetic artificial environment.

[00:03:35.22] spk_3:
You are You are our neo

[00:03:55.21] spk_4:
I am, and I’m standing in for all the fundraisers who are trying to wake up who feel the same sense of something’s just not right in my world is the fundraiser, and that was the experience that I had. Um, and I wanted to write the book to share that with people so they could wake up, help them to wake up and kind of escape the confines of the silos and the channels that they’ve been stuck in for so many years. Okay, sometimes without even realizing it.

[00:04:16.26] spk_3:
Okay. Uh, so you’re neo nickname Neo? Okay, Steve Neo Myers. Um, all right. Rob was deconstructing The titles are working away backwards. Now, what is the this model Personalized philanthropy

[00:05:26.24] spk_4:
Personalized philanthropy is is the antidote the opposite of what goes on in the Matrix? If you think about fundraising and philanthropy when it translates into the way that we work, it’s really like there’s two cultures. There’s an institutional focused culture which is focused almost entirely on trying to make campaign goals and reach objectives within the annual department or the major gift department. And the plan giving department. And even the small organizations tend to mimic these thes Silas and channels. My first experience was in really working and maybe a two man organization to people, and one of us was assigned this one channel and the other one of us was assigned to the other channel. And how ridiculous is that? It’s a counter intuitive. So the institutional focus is set off against this personalized focus, where instead of trying to service the campaign. You’re trying to serve the interests of donors. You meet the donor where they are instead of where the institution is. So you’re really talking about a whole new definition of what philanthropy is and what fundraising is. Four.

[00:05:55.34] spk_3:
We’ve been talking about donor centered fundraising for a dozen years or so Roughly, maybe, maybe more. Sure. I mean, I’ve been fundraising for 19 years. I don’t think we started out that long ago. But donor centric fundraising donor centered has been around for I’d say at least a dozen years or so. Why is how are you neo gonna gonna make this different and actually get us to where donor center is supposed to have been a CZ long as 12 or 15 years ago.

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
We’ve been talking about donor centered this and donor center that for a really long time, but we really haven’t had much to do about it. Um, when some people talk about donor centered fundraising, they’re talking about recognizing the donor or maybe finding a vehicle that they’re talking about selling a vehicle that they need to sell in order to make to bring that donor in so really donor centered fundraising and that’s really a copyrighted. It’s a trademarked. Yeah, Um, and it it really could have to do with how you thank them. How you write to them, how you called, cultivate them. But it doesn’t really have anything to do with what fundraising and philanthropy is about which, under my definition, the deafness that I’ve been working with is trying to mesh the compelling needs of interests off a donor with the compelling needs of the organization. So that changes. If you start with that definition where the donor’s needs matter, that’s the focus is on them. I really refer to this is donor focus giving rather than donor centered giving because the shift means that you’re focused on trying to understand the compelling interests in the passions of the donor and how they would connect to your organization. All right, that’s much different than the institutional focus

[00:07:33.14] spk_3:
on our hope. Personalized philanthropy is gonna is not gonna take this long to be really be realized, as as donor the donor centered trademark name. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. You’re the You’re the evangelist for for personalized philanthropy.

[00:07:37.75] spk_4:
I believe I am,

[00:08:04.99] spk_3:
I presume. Okay. Very good. We got the right person, and I mean you you brought the book. All right, Um, there’s let’s make sure now we just have a minute or so before break, but we got plenty time to talk. We’re you know, you’re here for the full hour. Let’s make sure that small and midsize shops know that they have. This is applicable to them. And they probably have advantages in trying to pivot to to be personalized philanthropists, philanthropies sent centers or shops, right?

[00:08:36.44] spk_4:
Yes. When I wrote the book, I was thinking of the person like me who was working in a small shop who had a background in annual giving and found themselves working in a major giving field. So for me, they were always connected. And I think that this is about empowering and enabling a person in a small shop to make a difference with every donor that they work with, not just the ones that there focused on for annual or planned or major giving. You meet the donor where they are. That’s the That’s the magic of this.

[00:08:43.74] spk_3:
Okay, excellent. All right. I want that reassurance. I’m very glad to hear it. And ah, Steve and I are gonna keep talking about personalized philanthropy. Stay with us.

[00:09:18.75] spk_2:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new C p A. A firm whose service is excellent, provides clear directions and timetables, is easy to work with and where you know, a partner That’s heat Coach Tomb has been a guest several times on the show. He’s gonna be coming back, and he will tell you whether Wagner can help you in 2020. So you start at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone and talk to eat. Now back to personalized philanthropy.

[00:09:29.78] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, um, you talk about in the book you mentioned a few times Transformation over transaction Flush that out from. Yeah,

[00:10:17.64] spk_4:
there’s two ways to think about fundraising the usual ways to think about the donor period and have a colleague who was written a book about the Donor Life Science Cycle Pyramid and the Pyramid. You’re thinking about transactions. You’re thinking about where a donor falls as a major donor at the top, in the middle or at the bottom. Transformational fundraising. You really thinking about time you’re thinking about loyalty? You’re thinking about relationships and they can take place over time. And the problem with with the pyramid style, the transactional, is that each transaction is separate and unrelated to all the others. What personalized philanthropy does is it creates a new model where all the transactions are connected to one another so that each gift can count in a way that would never count ordinarily. And it could explain. I can give you an example

[00:10:20.15] spk_3:
of examples stories. Just imagine.

[00:11:01.84] spk_4:
Imagine a rope. What end of the rope is the first gift and another end of the rope is the last gift. This is the chain of value in in in plan giving in and fundraising. And if you know all the all the value comes out at the end when the donor dies, implant giving it well, really. And if you think about the lifetime value of a donor, the big gifts come at the end. Yes. Okay. Ah, and you’re looking for bumps and major gifts and special gifts gifts. You make frequently gifts you make once in a while during a campaign and gifts you make once when you die. So what you have is you have a long rope with a lot of knots in it. What you’re gonna do and personalized philanthropy is you’re gonna move this rope around and you’re going to connect all of the knots. And that’s good means that all of these gifts are going to be connected with what another and they’re going to be united around, Ah, common purpose that the donor has an objective goal that not one gift could achieve. But all together, they can start to make a big difference during the donor’s lifetime. That’s a radical rethinking of how philanthropy works.

[00:11:26.88] spk_3:
Can we tie the two ends of the rope together and make a circle so that it’s it’s unending and non never breaks a

[00:11:34.59] spk_4:
circle? Or you could make a

[00:11:36.25] spk_3:
don’t make a new You don’t make the news.

[00:11:43.13] spk_4:
You make it. You’ll make a circle. You’re making really a tapestry like a like a Persian rug, each each. A lifetime of giving has a different design, and each donor kind of weaves their own tapestry of giving as they go through their life.

[00:12:01.54] spk_3:
Okay, I won’t force you to take the metaphor any further. We’re going to start making cat beds, and that’s not okay. Okay, um, Now, you you run at the Weizmann Institute, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. I’m I’m betting that it wasn’t called the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. When you first got there, you had to make some changes.

[00:12:26.42] spk_4:
I was the national director of plan giving that I was the national vice president for plan giving. And then ultimately, we decided to abandon the title of plan given, because

[00:12:28.02] spk_3:
sounds very solid. And may Trixie to me. Well, it was

[00:12:38.14] spk_4:
it was we came to realize that plan giving us Justus much asylum or channel has any of these other pains, and we weren’t working that way anymore. So we wanted to change that. Actually, what inspired the change from plan giving to personalized philanthropy was when my organization, the Weizmann Institute, decided to establish a center for personalized medicine. That’s a collaborative, multi disciplinary, interdisciplinary program where people are, um, um, collaborating in all kinds of new ways. And when I heard that phrase personalized medicine, You mean this medicine is designed for one person only. And it’s gonna work the first time

[00:13:11.97] spk_3:
in their DNA to select connected

[00:13:56.12] spk_4:
with that with their Deanna. Why, You know, that just was a wake up call for me that that’s what Philanthropy and fund raising Auto bay. All right, one of you kind of full spectrum. All the building blocks should be available to you. You bring them toe where the donor is, rather than trying to sell them something that you have you been instructed, really? Basically toe bring to them and ask them, Would you make a gift of X for this math, building, math and science building? And it doesn’t matter if the person cares about math or science. Maybe they were in the art department or they were a into literature or poetry. And why would they?

[00:14:15.44] spk_3:
Yeah, but we need based on our needs, space, the organization’s needs. But now you had to do some cultural and organizational change to create the the the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. What advice do you have for people who want to initiate this in their own organization? How do we start that conversation?

[00:14:31.62] spk_4:
I wouldn’t make a lot. I wouldn’t wait a lot for the organization to change its culture or its policies or procedures. Personalized plate. That is something that you could begin to think about when you kind of open up your your mind first realize that there is this matrix of Silas and channels that all of our fundraising basically is in. Right. And you want to try to find a way to connect your current giving in your future, giving around where your donors are at. And in order to do that you need like like an personalized medicine. They have technology. They have. They’re using technology in new ways. They have computational biology, so they could look at all this life science information in a systematic way. And this technology allows them to personalize medicine. So we have to have some tools that allow us to do this. And so I developed these things that I called killer APS. They are gift designs for bringing together current and future gifts that could be personalized and individually tailored to work with each donor.

[00:16:09.74] spk_3:
Yes, and we’re gonna get to the killer APs. But where were sporting neos throughout the throughout the world And there are in small, most of them listeners. There’s a small and midsize nonprofits, and they want to start a conversation about making a shift to personalize philanthropy from the Matrix that they are now burdened with right? I were want some tips. How did they start? But they’re going to sound like a lunatic the first time they go to their vice president or their CEO executive director, personalized philanthropy. And they have rope metaphors and not something you know how may be based on your own experience or, you know you’re coaching of others. How do we get this process started in our own currently matrix to shop?

[00:17:03.18] spk_4:
Well, as I said, the first thing you have to do is wake up to the fact that you’re working in a silo. Oh, and awareness awareness. And then you need to look outside of yourself outside of your silo. And, for instance, if you’re involved in playing giving, you know that one of the things that really makes that correlates with the plan gift is the donor who gives all the time. A donor who gives frequently tends to be the kind of person who wants to remember your organization in their estate plans. In fact, they may already have done that. So you would think, Wouldn’t it be amazing if we, without changing very much of this donor’s habit or pattern of giving. They could have a much greater impact today, instead of waiting until their death when they’re bequest comes in so kind of realizing that it’s possible Tiu have impact and recognition for a donor that begins right now.

[00:17:20.60] spk_3:
Okay, were so we’re gonna look to methods off current recognition and current value for both the organization and the and the donor, right, rather than long term. All right, All right, let’s start and and you have the killer APs before we get to the killer APS I think I’d like you just explain the spend rate because the Apsara largely dependent on an endowment spend rate, and there may very well be organization. I don’t even have an endowment yet, so let’s explain, spend rate.

[00:17:56.70] spk_4:
This personalized philanthropy works whether or not you have an endowment or not, Right. If you don’t have an endowment, you still need to have cash reserves, and you still need to be able to be financially sound. So that’s an objective that every organization has, even if they’re, ah, food bank or the kind of organization where they believe that they should not have an endowment. So

[00:18:05.04] spk_3:
there are a good number of them. There’s a

[00:19:09.34] spk_4:
lot of them out there, actually smaller ones, right? But the basic principle involved here is what I would call something like like this. It’s the grail of fundraising. The question that is not asked very often by donors to the organization is what’s the best gift that I could give you if I could give you anything that you wanted? Most organizations would ask for ID, like a gift of cash, and I like it right now. Thank you very much on and they would, and they would like to have it for general purposes. Um, but the question that they don’t know to ask is, Can we have a gift that will start working right away? Because we need to pay our bills. We have current deeds, and we also want to sustain ourselves for the future. So we need a gift that starts now and grows and scales up for the future. And most people in plain giving our only focus on the future. And most people in major and annual giving our only focus current president. So this grail of fundraising is the gift that really is the ultimate, the kind of gift that the organization needs the most but doesn’t even know how to ask for. OK, and that’s the kind of gift that we’re talking.

[00:19:17.70] spk_3:
All right, let’s define spend rate for people, and then we’ll get to your killer. APS spends Ben Drake

[00:19:21.72] spk_4:
please in an endowment on down when it’s usually thought to be the most important type of gift because a person makes a gift. And instead of being expended immediately, it goes into a bank account, an investment program, and each year a certain percentage of that fund is spent on the on the project or the program or the program, whatever that might be. And usually it’s like 5%.

[00:19:44.09] spk_3:
Yeah, I’ve seen between, like, three and 1/2 and five okay and used to

[00:19:50.64] spk_4:
used to be higher with the With Economy tanked a few years ago, I was spending rates began to to drop

[00:19:54.26] spk_3:
right because this is the amount that you’re spending from your endowment, and your endowment is supposed to be perpetual. So when investment returns or low spend rate spend, rates come down. This is typically decided by the board or maybe a committee of the board each year and Sometimes they look at the role of the average of the past three years returns. And that’s all financial stuff like

[00:20:15.68] spk_4:
if you What’s the idea?

[00:20:23.24] spk_3:
That, yeah, I’ve just wanna just feeling a little background, so to spend rate. So the spend rate changes from year to year. That’s the point. And typically you see same like three and 1/2 to 5. Or usually it’s

[00:20:46.84] spk_4:
around around 5%. And for the purpose of the conversation, it’s It’s pretty good. So that if someone makes $100,000 gift for an endowed scholarship and the scholarship is a proxy for whatever is something that’s really important to the donor into the school or the meshing, yes, then that $100,000 is going to produce, like, $5000

[00:20:50.38] spk_3:
each year we spend each year 5005% of endowment. Okay,

[00:20:54.90] spk_4:
so that’s how that’s how the spend rate works. And the goal of every fundraiser is to go out and get that endowment gift.

[00:21:00.65] spk_3:
All right, now we got the basics. Your first killer app is the virtual endowment. What is that? Well, that sounds very jargon e Virtually we have George in jail on tony-martignetti non profit radio. Okay, but I know you’re gonna get yourself out quickly.

[00:21:47.08] spk_4:
I’ll try. Well, you take that endowment that you just talked about the $100,000 that produces $5000 a year. You turned it upside down. This sounds like the veg. A Matic I didn’t. OK, he turned it upside down. It produces the donors, is giving you the $5000 a year every every year, say, for five years or 10 years. And that is going to be treated as if it were the product of an endowment that is yet to be created. So this donor has you in their will already say, for $100,000 they’re pretty comfortable giving you $5000 a year. They’ve been doing that without even being asked for him. It was maybe for general purpose.

[00:21:51.00] spk_3:
But they’re not comfortable giving you the $100,000 that’s right during their life, or at least at this point

[00:22:04.16] spk_4:
in their life. But their pattern of giving is such that an annual giver already and they care about the organization. So at the end of the rope, the end of the chain of living and giving is that $100,000? So why

[00:22:10.56] spk_3:
just come a little closer to the mic?

[00:22:14.46] spk_4:
Okay, thank you. So who is to say that getting that $5000 every year and then getting the $100,000 later where the program becomes self sustaining? Who’s to say that that’s not just a valuable as getting the $100,000 up front

[00:22:28.33] spk_3:
right? Okay,

[00:22:29.16] spk_4:
that’s a virtual endowment. And then with when the donor passes away, the virtual endowment essentially becomes a true and down

[00:22:53.82] spk_3:
okay. Or if they have a life event that changes their circumstances and they’re able to fund their endowment fully or maybe even half of some, you know, big Big bump while they’re living, that’s great. But in the meantime, they’re giving you what you would have spent from the endowment anyway. Brilliant. It’s very simple. Not too many organizations do this, though. I think

[00:22:56.53] spk_4:
it They don’t do that often because they’re focused on having a separate annual campaign, and they’re on to maintain that base of annual donors. And they have a whole maybe either they have a whole separate division of department and a department head who focuses on annual giving and another department that focuses on major giving it another one that focuses on plan giving. And they just they don’t connect up. And they have a lot of issues about who owns the donor and speak to the donor. So and what are you doing speaking to that donor there, Not a plan giving prospect,

[00:23:44.78] spk_3:
right? So if this this donor that you’re describing ah doesn’t meet the major gift level because here she can’t afford the $100,000 outright, then they’ll go to the Maybe they’ll drop to the or be shifted over to the annual giving team or something, but they won’t think of it as a virtual endowment. They’ll just think of it is we get $5000 a year from this person, but they’re not thinking longer term. And it’s usually when that annual fund silo

[00:24:03.46] spk_4:
in the Matrix that the preferred gift in the Matrix matrix general unrestricted gifts because we know how to spend your money better than you do right, and we need it to keep our operations go.

[00:24:12.49] spk_3:
So they’re not thinking about devoting it to a purpose that might later be endowed fully. That’s right. Later in the person’s life or at their data.

[00:24:18.83] spk_4:
And if if the purpose is central to the organization, if they had that endowment and they could do anything they wanted with it, they would most likely be funding those kind of programmes anyway.

[00:24:38.89] spk_3:
Yeah, okay. Okay. Killer APS. Okay, before we get to the killer APS ah, two and three just make clear why they’re called killer APS.

[00:25:08.44] spk_4:
They’re called killer APS because, like with any kind of technology, when new technology comes on, it just sort of wipes out everything that’s come before it thes when you employ the zaps and you work with them with donors, they achieve gifts that are so much greater. The donor you were talking about who was the $5000 donor now becomes a major donor because they’re giving $5000 a year and they have $100,000 on the books. So that could be, you know, a $200,000 down or even a much larger donor. It just changes the way you think about how you how you work. You really don’t want to go back to living in that silo Once you’ve been able to span plan major on annual giving through one of these per highly personalized gifts. They really work amazingly well.

[00:25:30.44] spk_3:
Excellent. Okay, we’re gonna take a little paws much more with Steve Myers coming up. We’re gonna talk about the philanthropic mortgage and step up GIF, ts and how your solicitations are gonna change.

[00:27:01.64] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software in the new year. Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. Meaning it’s built for you. For our community. Their customer service is excellent. So you know you’ve got backup if you need it. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take 24 Must have to start your plan giving in 2020. I hope that if you’re not already kicked off with plan giving, you’re not already deep into it. That 2020 is gonna be the year you get started. I have four things that I believe you need in place before you can get started there. Simple. But you gotta have some things lined up. Thio have ah decent chance of success of this at your inaugural planned giving program. And the first of these is you have to be at least five years old so that donors are confident that your organization will live beyond them. So I like to see at least those five years of history and for the other four must have for the other three must have of the four. Check out the video. It’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Steak, too. Now, back to personalized philanthropy. Our second entry in the Innovators, Siri’s

[00:27:11.82] spk_3:
Steve Myers never went anywhere. Took a couple sips of water. Thank you for your indulgence. Let’s talk about another killer app. The philanthropic mortgage. What you got going on there? The idea of

[00:27:47.84] spk_4:
the philanthropic mortgage seems so intuitive, but it’s something that we would never be able to think about in a highly silent and channeled environment that they call the fundraising matrix. Yeah, philanthropic mortgage. When you when you buy a house, you don’t have to pay for it in full before you move into it. You’re not. You create a mortgage. This mortgage you are paying you’re making like one payment and the payment goes partly for interests, and the other part of it goes to build equity in your in your home bills Equity principle? Yeah, yeah, building, building

[00:27:50.63] spk_3:
prints and build equity. But basically,

[00:28:50.05] spk_4:
the idea here is that you’re it’s just same ideas wth e the virtual endowment. A person can make a gift of that spending rate for the for the scholarship that they’d like to have. And so the scholarship can start up right away and then in the virtual endemic, they’re going to make slight, sort of like a balloon payment at the end of their life. They’re gonna pay it off through their request. But in the idea of a philanthropic mortgage, you can pay more than just the quote unquote interest. You could also pay a little more than the spending rate. The operating annual cost of that on that little bit extra goes to creating and building equity in your endowment fund. Beautiful. So over years over time, you could build the equity in your fund and your program can begin right away. So if you’re talking about a scholarship or a professorial chair, you get to meet that incumbent. You get to get the letters from them. You get to go and play an active part and have a relationship with the organization of the people that

[00:28:57.32] spk_3:
you’re supporting. So going back to our hypothetical before maybe that donor is giving $10,000 a year or 7500 year. 5000 is the spend rate. And then the surplus goes to start building up that endowment, which will be fully funded at some balloon payment with some balloon payment in future. That’s exactly what all right, all

[00:29:37.91] spk_4:
right. There’s an even more interesting example that relates to this up to a donor who’s maybe a little bit older and they’re going to have to. And they have an IRA Ira now that that the permanent ah charitable rollover is in effect, right? We know that it’s gonna happen all the time. We want to wait to the end of the year, and guests wait to the last minute so we could make these gifts whenever we want to. So that means if you’re working with the donor who is going to be 70 and 1/2 in the next couple of years, they’re going to start taking money out on a regular basis

[00:29:42.18] spk_3:
right that required minimum distribution

[00:30:34.95] spk_4:
wired to do that. And let’s say that they don’t need it to live. Then that could become, ah, part of the, you know, both part of the virtual endowment, and it can also be part of the little extra that they might have. So working with a donor who for the first couple of years is just paying the spending right to create a post doctor old chair in computer science because he loves that. But towards the end of the schedule, he’s going to reach the age of 17 and 1/2. He’s going to get a huge for him, at least required minimum distribution. That’s going to be his balloon payment, right? So he’s gonna pay the regular amount. And then the last year, he’s gonna receive a much larger amount from his IRA. And he’s gonna add that complete his the endowment that he writes for the post doctoral fellowship in his parent’s names.

[00:31:09.30] spk_3:
I’d like to think of the IRA now, especially because of the rollover is well, it’s actually a qualified charitable distribution, but everybody knows there’s a roll over because that’s now permanent. We might start to see, You know, Ira’s sort of become I have many foundation You can do your charitable giving through your i. R a. Have a count toward this required minimum distribution, which for a lot of people, is more than they want or need. And then you’re not You’re not text on it. You avoid the federal income tax on that, that distribution or that gift to, ah, the charity.

[00:31:22.88] spk_4:
So that only doesn’t have a value as a transaction. Because each time, as you pointed out, you don’t have to pay tax on the money that you’re giving away. You’ll never taxed on it. Essentially, you can use it strategically to grow your on pay the spending rate and the operating costs for your program. So we’re gonna begin right away,

[00:31:35.82] spk_3:
transformational and transactions. What? It’s okay. We agree. It’s not a hostile environment. You think you’re walking into a hostile environment? Yeah. Okay. Um, your final killer app is, uh, step up gift sort of a hybrid. Talk about talk about to step up.

[00:33:27.82] spk_4:
It’s a hybrid that person might be able to Ah, um this is one of those gifts that people wouldn’t think about because they would think that I could never have a professorial chair, at least not during my lifetime, because the professorial chair cost of 1,000,000 or $2 million that’s gonna be more than likely that will be in my estate. But I can’t really find a way to access that money now, however I can. I do have that $5000 that I’ve been giving every year for general purposes, and I could continue to do that for a number of years so I could start off by funding that scholarship we talked about earlier, that $100,000 scholarship that cost $5000 a year. So during my lifetime with Simon older donor, I could have that masters or other scholarship that could begin right now and then upon my death, um, the funds from my estate bequest for my estate could step up that endowment to the 1,000,000 or $2 million level. So basically my gift would step up from a master scholarship or a doctoral scholarship or a postdoctoral scholar ship all the way up to a professorial chair through my estate. Okay. And my plan would be put together so that the totality of my plane would be understood by both myself and by the charity that I’m working with from the very beginnings, right? This is a comprehensive that truly is a transformational give. It transforms from an annual gift to a major scholarship gift and to really a very substantial estate gift in there, all tied together around the same purpose, even though there are separate gifts that function for different purposes along the way. And then ultimately they all go for the same purpose.

[00:33:42.99] spk_3:
How do the killer APS and the smashing of the Matrix and the creation of a personalized philanthropy? How do these all come together to change our solicitations?

[00:35:39.14] spk_4:
That’s really a good question. I think it changes the way. First of all, it it changes the way that you think If you go back to the back to the movie The Matrix, when people see The Matrix, they sort of acquire these magical powers that could kind of see around corners and they can fly. They can defy the laws of physics because they understand the world in a in a way that was different in the way they understood it before. So if you are uh, if your practice becomes one of personalized philanthropy, you’re kind of working as an enlightened generalised. You have all the gifts, all the building blocks of philanthropy that you can bring to bear on each person wherever they are, and that’s going to change the nature of your work. You’re going to be basically sitting on the same side of the table as the donor, really an ally, ah, force to help them achieve what they want to and realize what’s what’s possible that they never would have thought was possible before by connecting all these small, modest gifts that they could make during their lifetime with the larger gifts that they could make through their estate, essentially changing the whole value change so the value can come out when they want it to come out and achieve that impact and begin to change society now. So that means that instead of just kind of being a hit and run kind of fundraiser like the annual fund people come in, I’d like to get the same thing I got last year, maybe a little bit more, and then move on to something else. Instead, you’re connected with the stoner through time. You’re not just looking at them at a point on the donor pyramid, you’re looking at their whole lifetime value as a donor and that that changes everything. The changes, the process for developing a personalized gift is much different. Thin. The solicitation of a typical asked for a regular

[00:35:59.12] spk_3:
Don’t you’re so stations. There’s gonna be more questioning and what’s important to you and what what brings you joy around the work that we do and right and more of a process than a discreet sit down. And the loser is the one who talks first after the ask is made. And then in four days there’s a follow up phone call. What are your thoughts about what we pitched very different.

[00:36:12.97] spk_4:
It’s it’s really completely, utterly.

[00:36:13.97] spk_3:
So what are some of the things that you ask about in your solicitation meetings? Well, it’s not

[00:36:25.93] spk_4:
that I ask any pursuit different questions than other fundraisers would. Just when I’m when I’m my thinking is different. I’m listening. I’m listening in a different way. And, uh

[00:36:30.34] spk_3:
So what are you doing? Let us into that neo brain. Okay, Well, what are you doing? What I’m trying

[00:37:25.54] spk_4:
to do is, I’m trying to discover what what matters to them and what I have that other fundraisers don’t have is that I have these killer APs that can connect to where the donor is so that if a donor has a habit of giving annually, I couldn’t begin to think about how might they have a greater impact by connecting all those gifts that they’re doing? If they gave for the last 10 years, $5000 a year? Chances are pretty good that they won’t be offended if we talk about. If you continue your pattern of giving, you could have a whole different kind of impact than you. Then you were having beef here, so it’s It’s a different, different tools and technology that I could use. I don’t have to sell them the math building when there are really more interested in the arts and music program. I could start with where with where they with where they’re at. Okay, so that that makes all the difference,

[00:37:32.33] spk_3:
right? Thanks for letting us into that head. We wanna when I want to be there, explicitly, even though we’re there for the hour. But it’s

[00:37:53.00] spk_4:
a good head to Bay because you you’re not just talking about donor centric donor focused giving. When you get this information, you can use it so that if a donor is ah, if they may already have included you in their estate plans, thanks a lot of donors they will that will do that without even being asked. That’s that’s where they begin. So you know that there’s going to be endowment. Possible atT. The end. Now you could begin to talk with them about connecting the current giving so that the impact of that future gift can start. Now.

[00:38:09.42] spk_3:
We have just about two minutes before break, and in those couple minutes I want you to flush out something. You talk in the book about the four Children from the Passover Seder? Yeah, just a couple minutes. How do they figure into this? The four Children who are they and what’s in there

[00:38:24.21] spk_4:
in the past, over in the past, over service. If this is part of the service that gets recited every year, so people know these names that might be familiar with him, so you could

[00:38:32.26] spk_3:
well, they think that we’re going to Passover seders. I’ve only been to one in my life, and I don’t remember the four Children.

[00:39:36.73] spk_4:
So the four Children, the Seder, are the wise, the wicked, the simple and the one who doesn’t know how to ask. So just imagine that these people have grown up and become donors and each one of them in the past, over service. The idea is to try to reach each individual, each type of Children of child where they are, um, and begin with what they are, who they are at, relate to them as individuals. Ah, and then you build out, you build out from that. So the four Children who begin to think about them as donors, you begin to focus on ah, where they’re at. If they’re wise, they might give it. That might be the kind of person who gives every year without being asked if they’re wicked. They might, uh, wicked is not. Ah, it’s not a bad term. In this case, it’s a kind of a positive thing because the person would be discerning very smart. They might have an interest in taking care of their loved ones as well. The donor, who is simple, just might begin with a bequest because as the seeds were planted before them. They will continue to plant the seeds for the future. And the donor who doesn’t have to know how to ask, is the one who has a charitable inclination but doesn’t know how to scratch that itch. So they’re the most fun to work with the ball.

[00:39:55.88] spk_3:
Beautiful. That’s great story. I kind of wish we’d ended with that, but we’re not anything but we’ll have a good ending anyway. Let’s go out for a break when we come back. Stephen, I’m gonna keep talking, talking a little about counting all these new gifts that you’re gonna be getting. Stay with us

[00:40:39.51] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation, you’ve got the best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and other media, and that’s how you get great coverage when it matters. Because you’ve got existing relationships. There are turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for personalized philanthropy.

[00:40:59.41] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, we’re gonna have lots of new gifts coming in, and you’re pretty. You’re pretty generous about counting. You don’t seem very generous. Don’t say that in the book, but it’s between between the lines you want. You want to give as much credit as possible? Not Not surprising. Really? Um, yes. Yes, you do. Um, let’s talk about, say, I’m gonna hash. We break this down So we look at the killer APS and how they would be counted or what? You’re what? You’re counting philosophy. Generally. Let’s start there.

[00:41:11.01] spk_4:
Okay. Uh, the prime directive for me in counting is don’t just count one number.

[00:41:18.61] spk_3:
Yes. You said that explicitly. The book? Yeah.

[00:41:32.18] spk_4:
Everything in our lives. It’s the sort of damage, please. Hanging over the head of every fund raiser, its financial resource development. And, um, how much did you raise? You have to How much did you raise? What did you raise? And if

[00:41:35.53] spk_2:
you don’t have

[00:42:56.62] spk_4:
an answer for that, someone else will. It’ll be a new accounting formula financial formula that tells what the present value is of all the gifts that came in. And of course, the president value doesn’t include bequests or request expect expectancies. It doesn’t include the kind of cultivation in the activities that you d’oh. It reduces everything that comes out of the system that doesn’t not have a present value. Yeah, and as fundraisers know, there’s a lot of things that we do that that would be considered his fundraising achievements that normally don’t count. So we wanna have a way of describing what it is that we do that goes along with how we feel about what fundraising achievement actually is. So when I say don’t count just one number, what we’re really saying is there is one number that you have to be aware of it. Everybody has to know that. But there’s a complement of that one number, and it’s a multi dimensional set of numbers that can help us to measure our own effectiveness and convey to the people that we are working with and for what all this fundraising has been about. And really, there are three kinds of gifts that we we like to count outright gifts that count 100% gifts that there would be like Category one gifts,

[00:42:58.32] spk_3:
cash and cash equivalents. Call those the category one cash

[00:43:04.90] spk_4:
cash equivalents that would include pledges that air like payable over a couple of years.

[00:43:06.84] spk_3:
Legally binding. I get legally binding pledge.

[00:43:51.20] spk_4:
It’s legally binding. Pledge is okay, and legally binding pledges could include pledges that are payable over 12 or three years but also pledges for older donors that are going to be considered as bookable or irrevocable from their estates. That’s another type of ah, gift that would count in this cash or cash equivalents. The second category is the irrevocable gifts that we we raised the charitable remainder trust and gift annuities and part of the value of them would count in that one number, and the rest of the wood would not count until they were later received. And the third category is revocable gifts or or bequests that are expected but that have not yet been received.

[00:43:54.38] spk_3:
And they’re not legally binding.

[00:43:55.79] spk_4:
And they’re not. And they’re not legally because

[00:43:57.51] spk_3:
there are ways of making a bequest legally binding. If the person signed a contract to buying their estate, um, testamentary contract. Okay, so

[00:44:14.13] spk_4:
this, uh, this journey towards personalized philanthropy really began for me with this question of what am I doing here? What?

[00:44:14.85] spk_3:
I just asked that question about 1/2 an hour. Just asked. That’s a

[00:44:40.24] spk_4:
really good question. You should always be asking, What am I doing here? And if you’re on task, you’re doing something that relates to one of those kinds of gifts. You’re cultivating a donor for a future gift your culture. Get cultivating them for a gift that can provide income to them now and a gift to you later. And you’re also cultivating the firm, a gift that they could make now and that you can have now that could be both cash or it can be assets other other than cash. And that’s how you would evaluate what you’re doing in kind of a multi disciplinary way.

[00:44:49.22] spk_1:
How do you

[00:44:57.49] spk_3:
like toe? Give credit to fundraisers for activities that aren’t quantifiable, you know, advancements in a relationship. But the person didn’t increase their giving this year or pledged to in the future. You know all those activities that meaningful but non quantifiable,

[00:45:09.68] spk_4:
right? Yeah. You want to

[00:45:10.65] spk_3:
How do we help fundraisers be recognised? Well,

[00:45:42.77] spk_4:
you know, we develop metrics out of these out of these out of activities, and you try to figure out the ones that are going to be important for you, and you embrace the ones that are important for you now sometimes, um, people go way overboard on this. There was one fundraiser that I know who travels around a lot to meet with donors. And his supervisor wanted to him to quantify, um, how much, um, money per per mile he was raising. He said, Oh, no, no,

[00:45:46.45] spk_3:
I won’t do that on.

[00:45:48.10] spk_4:
He was senior enough that he was able to avoid that in another system. They wanted to know. What is this fundraiser doing? Every 15 minutes? It’s almost

[00:45:56.80] spk_3:
Oh, my God, It’s like law firms.

[00:45:57.84] spk_4:
Like a lot

[00:46:11.12] spk_3:
of booking for way. I used to book a six minute increments. All right, we just have about a minute, lad. We don’t want to do right. We do that. That’s not to do we have about a minute left? Leave us with some things that we should be measuring to give credit to fundraisers. Some examples of what you measure you like to measure

[00:46:39.89] spk_4:
well, when you, when you do these blended gifts with blended gifts come from a combination of current and future gifts. So you want to measure the gifts, all of their dimensionality, so that you could compare them to the single present value along with all the value that they’re going to bring to the organization beginning right now. So if you’re going back to the person that we were speaking of before, go

[00:46:40.25] spk_3:
ahead, you have to wrap it up.

[00:46:41.22] spk_4:
Okay, Well, uh, their gift is gonna have an immediate impact, and it’s gonna grow and scale up over time. And that’s what you want to try to achieve that, That that’s the grail of fundraising.

[00:47:12.14] spk_3:
And that’s if you want to track yet. Okay, we have to leave it there. Steve Myers, vice president, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science. You’ll find him on Twitter at Steven Myers. 863 The book. Get the book. It’s personalized. Philanthropy crashed the fundraising metrics. It’s at Amazon, and it’s also a charity channel, which is the publisher

[00:47:59.44] spk_2:
next week. Our innovators, Siri’s continues with leading systems change. What did I say earlier in the show that next week would not be innovators? Siri’s? That was a mistake that definitely is the innovative Siri’s third entry, and it’ll be alive. Finally, live innovators. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com It’s still occurs to me. I need an intern to blame for these mistakes. It’s it’s unbelievable. By Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? So if you know anybody who wants to be a blamed in turn in the future, resume to tony at 20 martignetti dot com and also by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Our creative producer is

[00:49:04.47] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lieber, which is the line producer thief shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Great voice just cracked talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, Huh?