Category Archives: Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Nonprofit Radio for December 6, 2019: Big Impact

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My Guest:

Vivien Hoexter: Big Impact
Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivien Hoexter is co-author of the book “Big Impact” and she shares lessons and reflections from the authors’ interviews for their book.

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Nonprofit Radio for November 22, 2019: Recruiting Your Next CEO

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My Guest:

Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO
“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Author Dennis Miller walks us through. (Originally aired 12/22/17)

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Transcript for 467_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20191122.mp3

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[00:01:52.10] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with extra fee if you turn to my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next CEO as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer. End quote. So starts the book. A Guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO. Author Dennis Miller walks us through that originally aired on December 22nd 2017 on tony Stake to Last Call for Innovators were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Let’s get started with recruiting your next CEO. I’m glad that I can welcome Dennis Miller back then A C. Miller. He’s a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than 35 years experience working with non profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s managing director of the nonprofit Search Group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, His Fifth, is a guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO, the Executive Search Handbook for non profit Boards. You’ll find Dennis and his book at Dennis c. Miller dot com. He’s at Dennis C. Miller, and I’m very glad that his book brings him back to non profit radio. Welcome back, Dennis C. Miller.

[00:02:04.96] spk_0:
Happy to be back, tony.

[00:02:07.65] spk_3:
Well happen years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you, what is the sea for? In Dennis c miller dot

[00:02:16.33] spk_5:
com and

[00:02:19.24] spk_0:
Charles my father’s names. So many Dennis mellows and grammar school in high school we put in and I’m very proud to be

[00:02:26.45] spk_3:
Charles. All right. You don’t mind if I don’t call you Dennis C. Miller the whole hour, though

[00:02:29.68] spk_5:
I just call

[00:02:30.56] spk_0:
me dad. You’re like,

[00:02:33.46] spk_3:
OK, now, Dennis, we have to be. And it has to be anymore. Denigrating the dentist. Venice. Fine. Now you’re by phone. You’re in. You’re in Los Angeles. Is that right?

[00:02:41.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m actually in the Los Angeles area of isn’t That’s a business appear this week. And now we’re spending time my wife and I with our two sons and their families and grandson out here in Los Angeles and heading up to Santa Monica, Santa Monica Pier right after the show. So

[00:03:03.90] spk_3:
All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want, take off now, we could just bag the whole thing. You need to go. Public transportation is gonna leave in five minutes or something, or you’re OK.

[00:03:08.12] spk_5:
Oh, you’re okay for the

[00:03:37.83] spk_3:
hour. Okay, now, remember the last time you were here, you almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. You’re you’re ah. Um, your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You need a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to Los Angeles, And this way you can call him by phone. Okay? You don’t worry about running running to the studio, okay? Okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what I was saying? No salmon. Every little word

[00:03:40.59] spk_5:
had a regular. You may have.

[00:03:41.29] spk_3:
No, you did. You had a high. You definitely had a heart, a heart because your face was red. All right, Um, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome?

[00:04:38.17] spk_0:
Well, think about it that there’s probably over a 1,000,000 more. There’s more than a 1,000,000 non profit around the country and with the number of people that are dissipate to retire over the next five plus years on any research a staggering, sometimes closing 75% the the vast majority of people went into the non public sector, and leadership positions were baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the community. So there’s a lot of retirement going on, and the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next CEO. And on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing. So it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit in. Actually, that’s why I wrote the book

[00:04:44.83] spk_3:
OK, 75% turnover in the next 10 years we’re gonna have,

[00:04:54.41] spk_0:
I’d probably less. I mean, it’s It’s quite a bit if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, you know, it’s now 2017 and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needing.

[00:05:18.54] spk_3:
One of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hire a such consultant. Now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book, you’re biased. But can you weigh the pros and cons for us?

[00:05:23.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Listen, um, I’m biased. Certainly if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, I think the book will help them with that.

[00:05:30.04] spk_5:
Uh, sure you want

[00:06:28.17] spk_0:
to go in alone Is this year you have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s gonna be needed for the board members to not only identify the profile of the next candidate but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved. I lay out those steps in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures, that they’re gonna be pain and most trees probably in the area of someplace between 20 to 35%. All cases, 25 that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet, so you wanna have an expertise. There’s like anything else you need a lawyer of financial account. You’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own. And the other aspect, tony, for people who want to go about on their own, is by just posting sort of ads and social media, whatever. You’re gonna only get two people that are looking for a job and you don’t know either how good they are, how well performing they are if they’re happy a search from is gonna recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What? I have

[00:06:46.44] spk_3:
those percentages that you quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is

[00:06:52.11] spk_5:
that yes.

[00:06:59.72] spk_0:
So someone makes ah a position whether the CEO, our CFO or development unable to save the position was 100,000

[00:07:01.00] spk_5:
dollars. You

[00:07:01.95] spk_0:
know, the average three is gonna be $25,000. But this day, five years, it’s $5000 a year, which comes out to about $100 a week or 20 hours of any. And you know, the thing about it’s probably the smartest investments that aboard wouldn’t want to make.

[00:07:23.99] spk_5:
Okay, Noah, particularly you get the right portion. Okay? And I

[00:07:24.54] spk_3:
guess the main advantage of going in on your own is you’re saving that fee.

[00:07:28.54] spk_0:
Well, you saving the feeble you also, you better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna

[00:07:33.84] spk_5:
happen. That

[00:07:34.43] spk_0:
so that you poisoned cons here. But most most really good organizations will use a search firm for certain keys positions.

[00:07:45.03] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before Ah, first break, Dennis. Oh, let’s just identify that this CEO change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so. This could be an opportunity. A great opportunity.

[00:08:30.56] spk_0:
What? How you look at him and I’m We’re doing a search right now. When we’ve got the finalists. Been seen by the search committee and beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm and, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from not a crisis to. This is a phenomenal opportunity to not just take it, get a new leader, but to have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while or fairly new. It’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So what if the glass is half full? It’s I look at it is very exciting time when organization most clients feel the same way,

[00:09:30.24] spk_3:
all right, and we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this. Right now, it’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. If that kind of C p. A. Could be valuable for you. Your non profit. Then check out wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the, uh We got some live listener love. Let’s do it good. We do. And we’ve got Seoul. South Korea s o. I gotta tell you, soul. So, uh, so consistent. Such loyal listeners in Seoul, South Korea On your HASA an io io comes a ham nida, which does not

[00:09:30.77] spk_4:
mean live. Listen, love out to you, but I’m

[00:10:47.14] spk_3:
grateful Soul always with us. Thank you. Um, Victoria that they can. Krista In Brazil, there will be a brain a star this on da lively love Love out to, uh, Brazil. Thank you for being with us. Ashburn, Virginia Tampa, Florida, New York, New York and, uh oh, another South Korea Chung Wan The same greeting goes to Chung Wan annual Hasso come So ham Nida. Glad you’re with us. I love it and they’ll be more, but I felt like doing the live love earlier today. And the podcast Pleasantries. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for being a podcast listener of non profit radio. I’m glad that we fit into your podcast listening wherever it is and whenever it is pleasantries to the podcast listeners, Let’s go back to recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book recruiting, Ah, guide to recruiting your next CEO and Dennis C. Miller. So let’s talk about that. That possibility for assessment you Ah, you say that you might, uh, considered doing strategic planning, I guess, if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next CEO

[00:12:12.61] spk_0:
Yeah, well, the you know the question always is You know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do you hire a CEO or do you hire or chief development officer before you have a plan and and, uh, kind of it’s up. It’s up to decline the organization, but give me a couple examples whites sort of better to at least an idea of where you want to go on what you want to achieve. So let’s say you wanted to. You go out and hire a CEO, hoping that they will build your plan and let some party. A plan is to be more involved in philanthropy. More involved in the cultivating. So seeing donors, what if that seal he just hired doesn’t have that experience? Well, now you’re stuck. So what if your need is to grow your board and the new CEO? Yes. Sorry doesn’t have that. So one of the things that I recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan. But certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision. Where you headed. Will you want ahead? What? Some of the big strategic goals you have? Um, what things that you need to get done. And then, obviously it’s much easier than to identify the the characteristics of the qualities and experience of the CEO. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for you organization. So that’s why it’s important to take a look at kind of way. You want to go before

[00:12:21.57] spk_3:
you say that If you’re not gonna do a full full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are.

[00:12:45.52] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are some people that don’t do a full blown strategic plan. I think that you could do that, but I think more importantly, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life cycle as an organization and as a board. Um And then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of, Well, you’re at that helps us or dramatically beginning the on boarding closet with your next CEO. So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind. So I do think that you wanna have and I point this out in the book. You want to have a sense of your strategic vision where you’re heading and pick up some of the key goals were having Yes. So when you’re interviewing came that you want to make sure their line with those gold here and it makes much smoother transition,

[00:13:24.42] spk_3:
some of the goals you lay out besides mission envision our fundraising and development. You know what you wanna do around that? You’re bored CEO relationship? Your programs and service is andi Course. You know, the book explains what goes into detail each of those, but, um,

[00:13:31.78] spk_5:
I had a couple of

[00:13:45.44] spk_0:
it. Certainly, you know, you walk additional capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have, Ah, plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you? Border. You building the right board? Are you branding your organization and communicating that the impact you’re having? It’s important things today, So there’s a lot of, ah, strategic goals that one should be having with this pauses. And, uh, you want to get a sort of buying from your board and have the new CEO committed help implement this employee.

[00:14:33.50] spk_3:
And okay, so this new CEO is gonna have need to have some skills, and you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing CEO are. We want to be thinking beyond that. I mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is gonna do is help you look forward, not current. You know you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current CEO’s talents, but you want to build on those for the for the future, and you identify a whole bunch of potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit relationship builder, et cetera. But you wanna be going beyond the current.

[00:15:37.66] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s easy question when you have someone you know, Uh, you know, what kind of ah kind of deal are you looking for? And that the person who’s been in the job for the past 10 50 years for name is Surely people would be like someone like Charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that your previous CEO had may be silly, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that I have in the book in another books. In my work, I D’oh tony, is the idea of today’s competencies were, uh, executive leadership, non public sector, dramatically different than they were 5 10 years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past, you know, aboard, we’re looking for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relationship in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out and get a grant. Though their skills are still important. Today they look for more than just kills but compensation traits such as they want a visionary thinkers today, when the House, the CEO or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for CEOs to create their own vision

[00:15:55.82] spk_5:
cream organization.

[00:16:34.49] spk_0:
I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of creative vision number two. Certainly people want the idea of relationship. Will the building relationships outside inside the organization, someone who’s a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is important, ships that you need not just managed and when you got So is a whole series of conferences that identify in the book, including, you know, being a collaborative non about how big of a budget you have in control. It’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass is out there for CEOs and executives, but I use the term some of the CEO jacket director do all the time.

[00:17:04.11] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s fair. That’s fair Fares. Similarities. Yeah, of course. Um, I did have a guest years ago. Uh, Eugene Fram he was a professor at I think he was a university of Rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the CEO. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and CEO. That chief executive makes it less likely doesn’t make no guarantee. But let’s like that. Board members will get involved in the nitty gritty, the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging a CEO versus an executive director. I did you give any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one over the other

[00:17:40.10] spk_0:
radio. You know, tony, the point you’re raises a really good one, and I do have a pilot in the book of my work. But I do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer, um, the more contemporary title is board, ship or support president. What you kind of the past is, um, it may just be words, but I think they have a lot of

[00:17:42.99] spk_5:
connotations. They do find themselves.

[00:17:53.44] spk_0:
I’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top lay personal pipe a person should be the president CEO, and I think that was profit last year right there. When you’re out there with donors. So it’s more than just an executive director, um, overseeing the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen. I do. I do before the word CEO

[00:18:07.92] spk_3:
on and also executive director. I mean, that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non profit term

[00:18:13.17] spk_5:
way. Want to think that

[00:18:15.38] spk_3:
running like businesses run this thing like a business happens to be a nonprofit corporation?

[00:18:19.26] spk_5:
But don’t tell

[00:18:22.79] spk_0:
mother interviews with you. It’s came up the term, you know, non properties. You tax

[00:18:26.85] spk_5:
that business

[00:18:29.26] spk_0:
plans. I think it’s important that today’s title be CEO. I just really think that’s important Title that have

[00:18:38.81] spk_3:
Let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing.

[00:20:03.91] spk_0:
Well, clearly, I think the this you know that in terms of size of the dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on this? It’s absolutely who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experience with search, maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good. That’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of 12 to 15 people, you may want a search committee of maybe five, maybe seven maximum. But I’ve seen larger or smaller, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two be tremendous amount of time commitment. So the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be an involvement here in some time. And then obviously the key part of that will be who will be your share of the search committee. In some cases, it’s a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, lot of people ask me all the time would it be okay tohave the form of a former board chair, a strip search committee? And I would say, Maybe I would say, maybe on Lee, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for

[00:20:09.73] spk_5:
the future, not so much because

[00:20:10.19] spk_0:
they won’t know exactly what they’re looking for.

[00:20:12.06] spk_5:
You all right?

[00:20:21.88] spk_0:
This is committee has got to be a forward, approaching organization, afford poaching committee. I think that’s kind of that’s something that I would be looking for a nose of membership.

[00:20:25.04] spk_3:
What about an employee putting one on one employee on the committee?

[00:20:28.94] spk_0:
I don’t think that’s a good idea. Actually, I think it’s a bad

[00:20:32.91] spk_5:
idea.

[00:20:33.45] spk_0:
Come out Whiter Bay and say not give example.

[00:20:36.04] spk_5:
Okay,

[00:21:21.00] spk_0:
Uh, I’ve had people wondering to put the, you know, you know, the current CEO on the search committee, and I The answer is no. Then Walvis of the current CEO, Timmy, and help in the search committee and the consultant, or either inside or outside of what a search committee helped develop aspects of the position profit. What will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next CEO? But the board hires and fires a CEO. It’s also very uncomfortable for a current CEO to be on the search committee. I had a case where, um, it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that I helped with succession planning in. They had an internal candidate for the position, and when the search committee as this person, what changes would you make? She’s very awkward to be talking about the changes you want to make with

[00:21:29.27] spk_5:
us. Of course. Right

[00:21:43.45] spk_0:
eye. But now there’s times when you get there, some people that have their VP of HR on the search committee of the knee that lays on. But remember, people, it’s not a good idea. Have staff. It’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his board Members of Donald.

[00:21:49.42] spk_3:
Okay, predominately. And then you said, maybe a volunteer,

[00:21:53.09] spk_0:
if you need expertise. I mean, if you know, if you’re going to not have a search committee and may Sometimes people can hire a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But I think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that’s happened things, so

[00:22:11.40] spk_5:
you could

[00:22:11.84] spk_0:
build it up. Great.

[00:22:15.91] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is gonna be maintained, right?

[00:22:41.07] spk_0:
You want a crucial because I make it clear to all my such amazing you could be you could be sued for. Ah, um we could be potentially have a liability for exposing that there is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way, you know donating. Is it been interviewing for me and and before you know it, Tony’s employer finds out, you know, feels like this is loyal to the prom, so you have to protect confidential. It’s something that I have to establish the trust of my chance coming in. They’re out. They’re they’re adamant, and it’s just it goes with the same goes with the business. I have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a

[00:23:07.71] spk_3:
job. And this goes partly to, ah, the time commitment. You know, if if there isn’t a ah ah, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is gonna have to be after hours people are gonna be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six PM

[00:24:12.45] spk_0:
Yeah, I had, you know, in our business is growing tremendously. What’s what’s going on. But you know, when people you know, maybe I’ll do it myself if you can. It’s up to you, but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what you want, but the outreach to potential candidates. Very time consuming. If you’re going to delegate that members of a church Dominion war So you know professionals are working or even retired. It’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people. It’s a lot of time. Of all the narrowing candidates down and doing the reference checking, it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in the process, not just putting in and out there and then, you know, interviewing kids. It’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity. That’s really important,

[00:24:17.63] spk_3:
which is when I was just gonna point out that you say something that caught my eye was very, very interesting. I hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation to our role Thio be selling the applicants on the organization Not

[00:24:30.88] spk_5:
just to be not just to be a neutral a

[00:24:33.02] spk_3:
neutral committee, but be advocates for the organ.

[00:24:52.80] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, the cannon is gonna come in, they’re gonna come in prepared, and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, Jeez, I thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best thing since sliced bread? Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need the candidate’s gonna besides what the search consultant is gonna be telling them about the organization of recruiting for as a search committee, a CZ members that you want to be portraying a very positive image. You want to be sort of extending your hand. You want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome in warm, even if you’re not gonna be selected them. And you noted on the process you want to believe with a very positive for Donna. That’s a major all the search committee as it is.

[00:25:43.32] spk_3:
All right? Yeah. Interesting. Let’s move, Thio, Resume screening. You got. You got a ton of tips you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of. But you’ve got You’ve got a lot of tips to share. Share a couple of resume screen tips Now, we’re at that stage that these things are coming in. Resume resumes a lot of resumes coming out share, share a couple of resumes, screening tips,

[00:26:33.79] spk_0:
a couple things one of things you want to look for is Clary right off the bat asses. Clary. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get a hold of you? You don’t always have to have your home address these days, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think I look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where, where’s your career bed and a couple of tips you look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly. That’s a that’s a signal potential red flag, red flag were bad thing, but it should be there. The other thing that those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences, but you never get intensive where they perform that. So two things on a resume, both for people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for a position or responding to a search from is clarity is the resume clear of what I’ve accomplished is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have. And I think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that it really

[00:26:51.37] spk_3:
yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise Children

[00:27:00.22] spk_5:
absolutely. Was a caregiver was given for power

[00:27:11.59] spk_0:
that was concerned about a gap. And I said, Just tell him you have a PhD in parenthood. I mean, should be proud to be a parent way. Don’t have parents. We don’t keep that one. So I think it’s totally appropriate. But be honest with what you don’t want to do is start to cover things up here, Um, and so the, you know, present yourself in a positive tone. But certainly be honest if you took a couple of years out or time out to raise Children and be proud of it. And you did but these skills and bring back the table, I’m educated Workforce.

[00:27:30.47] spk_5:
I think

[00:27:31.17] spk_0:
I’m playing with that.

[00:27:34.97] spk_3:
Let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off? When you see people with email addresses that are Hotmail or a ol? Does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology

[00:27:58.20] spk_0:
now. I don’t know. Not any. Tell you why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business email and the personal email. And so they don’t want ah, search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into their professional at work email

[00:27:59.17] spk_5:
like, Yeah, I get that.

[00:28:04.63] spk_0:
I’m okay with the Gmail accounts. It’s when I see you know Dennis at, you know, big love dot com. I

[00:28:11.83] spk_5:
have Is that you? I’m gonna try that one. Yeah. Okay,

[00:28:15.05] spk_3:
but wait. Yeah, And then when did the e mails that are unprofessional? Like baby cakes, you know, But

[00:28:25.47] spk_5:
I don’t want no baby cakes. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right,

[00:28:27.77] spk_0:
I think it’s a potato to protect you. You know, your privacy from work. I think that’s fun.

[00:28:47.61] spk_3:
All right, but let me ask you. But but my point was, if it’s an added, you know, sort of added date domain, like a o. L or Hotmail or yeah, you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology? Now,

[00:28:51.94] spk_0:
if you know, if you haven’t out of the email address, and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address, um, and at that, eh? Oh, well, I mean, I’m flying with that.

[00:29:05.98] spk_5:
I’m

[00:29:06.37] spk_0:
playing with that.

[00:31:31.72] spk_3:
All right? Long is not baby cakes today. Oh, well, all right, way Need to take a break, wegner. No. Cougar Mountain Cuckoo Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What that means for you is that it’s got what you need. Like fund accounting, fraud prevention, grant and donor management. Custom reporting the awesome customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page, which you will always find at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take to last chance. This is the last call for innovators with doing the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020. Got a bunch of people I could use a couple more if you or someone you know, our, um tackling a problem or just approaching whatever challenges day to day issues in a different way. Then you think your ah, your colleagues elsewhere are and you’re having some success with it. Then I’d like to talk to you because you might be right for our innovators. Siris, Are you Are you innovating? Whether it’s any the fundraising topics which are myriad or its board relationships or could be bored recruiting CEO recruiting like we’re talking about today, whatever it is. Program management. Um, if you’re doing something innovative, tell me about it. Let me know you got You’ve had some success at it and let’s talk. Let’s see if there’s a fit for our innovators. Siri’s. You can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com or used the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. That is tony Stick to. Shall we continue with Dennis Miller and recruiting your CEO? I say we shall. Dennis Miller’s with us. You know him? We’re talking about his book, A guide to recruiting your next CEO. You know, we can’t We can’t cover the whole book, so just get the thing. For goodness sake. You know it’s a dentist. See miller dot com. That’s where you’ll find dentists in this book. Just get the damn thing. It’s just that I don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right, anyway, Dennis, let’s continue our joint through Um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through Lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when I don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Um, now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things were looking for. They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability.

[00:33:40.69] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean the entity process. Once we screen people intense of un resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone in the process, and we can get a better sense of where they are. As a potential candidate, we may explain a final car weather at one. A salary package, so without can’t be wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple of two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural fit? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on 18 builders or the You know, are they collaborators of the good communicators? And then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results. And I think those two things is what kinda, you know, separates the people who get to positions of those that don’t hear. I. We advised. Certainly the search committee on you know the question should be focused on Limited tony, too. You know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal with things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game and committal results. Those are two things that are a crucial now, one of things that you may ask me. I just want answers ahead of time is we have and your listeners could get if they contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non profit search dot com, we provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. I would have told a score of 50 and whether it’s on leadership, communications street, strategic planning board relationships, etcetera. So when people actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got 48 people supposedly going in the search committee members can evaluate for people and where people come out. Usually it’s good to have with them.

[00:33:52.62] spk_3:
You have a lot of resource is at the non profit search dot com. So, uh, you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring Matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s get into some details here now. Is the whole committee meeting with every, um, every candidate? Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then I don’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets air gonna judge people differently.

[00:34:35.03] spk_0:
Yeah, well, here’s what we do. Um And, um, the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates. Now, in a case we just have here because it’s got multiple locations, there are actually eight people on a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which twice, but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meet so many candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee he’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of every every candidate to be seen by every person

[00:34:54.42] spk_3:
you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit, you know? You don’t want to be asking Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions.

[00:35:35.66] spk_0:
Yeah, you hear? You don’t want to say, You know, uh, you want you want engage him in conversation and they want engage you in conversation too. And so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current position? On your most recent position? What was the your biggest achievement? Uh, he has an issue for us. How would you deal with it? Stay away from the yes or no questions. And we have, You know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here. No question to be asking, but it’s not open it. Not not yes or no Open ended question. Engagement of conversation is the best.

[00:35:43.20] spk_3:
Okay, uh, let’s say we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s our next step in the committee?

[00:36:55.22] spk_0:
What will you want to do is you wanna have everybody son of score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring so you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is I have I have a conversation with this share of the search committee, and then, uh, I will then meet with the search committee, or one of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee, dependable of the searches and what it’s for. And then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates. There’s just one person they like and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s two final plans. They’re not sure. So there’s a process here. The pluses here is obviously to let the other candidates know that they did well and they thank you before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience that’s Maur meets the needs of my client. We hope to see him again. The future and then focus in on having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making making a final offer on an employment contract. Employment agreement

[00:37:14.41] spk_3:
right now in this scoring, Obviously, some were going to score highest in High Esten higher than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, uh, you know, even the highest scoring one or two just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like I said, every in a group of five. Somebody’s going to score the highest. But even that highest one, they just don’t feel right, you know? How do we way feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process

[00:37:36.37] spk_5:
Well expressed. Happened,

[00:39:20.56] spk_0:
uh, you know, only once in my recent experience where, um, in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and you know, as you know, the millions of millions of people that serve on non proper boards throughout this country and in other countries. In Canada, you know, our bright, committed people, they gotta see it. You gotta feel for, you know, who you think would fit in here. So usually you know the scores will help you because it gives you a feedback. But usually you get a kind of feeling who would be the best person for that If there’s a situation, Um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates, I absolutely would highly recommend that you go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. We started with believing out of pool of 18 candidates, uh, knit, knit up, down with it down to 11. That was down to five. And five people came in. And so the entire team and that team in there identified, you know, two people and, uh, lo and behold, some discussion and some some time issues, and then people not sure what decision to make. And it was some inexperience on the team making decision, and they kind of planted and they just so I’m not sure I’m ready to pull the trigger. So we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again and usually don’t get the great candidates again. And we did, and it worked out. So if for some reason you don’t feel it, I dont just say, Well, because there’s a high score because you’re gonna live with this person quite awhile. Usually does not happen. Tony.

[00:39:24.64] spk_5:
You, um

[00:39:34.96] spk_0:
you know the search for doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate. But if it’s amazing, you feel that, you know, I just don’t feel it. So this person is going to fit in here that don’t just pick someone because of scored. The scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate?

[00:39:41.30] spk_3:
Is this the stage where we should be calling references? Now we’ve We’ve narrowed it down to our top two or

[00:39:45.51] spk_5:
so.

[00:40:20.91] spk_0:
So what will a CZ We get? The final can’t wait, Do ask for reference, but here’s what we do. We don’t ask them. They tell us who they’re going to use this reference. We are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking. For example, in a CEO case, we know they can’t talk about the company we’d liketo have been talked. We’d like to talk to someone who is a board member, maybe a board member. Another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them. So, uh, we don’t always talkto the references. I had a time because if you’ve got four final candidates, we it’s not about our time. It’s that we if you’re not going to be chosen, why go through the hassle of asking people and speaking to the reference But with your Jarious final candidate, we absolutely do a thorough construct. And I have a little bit of a funny story that you’re Listen,

[00:40:45.19] spk_5:
um, you

[00:41:15.73] spk_0:
may enjoy it just kind of quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when I did my first start believing not 30 years ago, and I was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people, and it was, ah, man, a woman. And remember, the man had sort of Maur experience, But the young woman had seemed like much more potential anyway, for some reason, that the man had given me a list of 10 references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me 10 references, and I call it the 46 References. This man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru.

[00:41:22.76] spk_5:
But the time I got the

[00:41:23.74] spk_0:
78 I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time I got denying, 10 people were asking me, you know, why did you What did this guy even give me a reference?

[00:41:36.38] spk_5:
The moral stories you want to keep,

[00:42:12.63] spk_0:
you know, kind of dig in here, and it’s certainly you have a light as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we d’oh and same time protecting a confidential alley. But certainly we need to do a thorough research on them. And then, in addition to references, we obviously do a check on, um, educational credentials. And then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not do regarding the one pursue feeling criminal background check, will and credit credit risk of credit reports.

[00:42:58.13] spk_3:
It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of was 30 years ago. We didn’t have words we have. We have word. We’re gonna be using that word perfect. Where you had to write down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use, like, the last four. We’re We’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we gotta take a break. I missed our last break. You ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you to do that. They themselves are former journalists. They specialize

[00:43:04.45] spk_4:
in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a

[00:43:45.38] spk_3:
turn hyphen to dot ceo. Let’s add a little more live love. We got someone jumped in from New York, New York. Welcome. Welcome. New New York New York listener Also. Bangkok, Thailand. I’ve been there and that’s a beautiful city. Beautiful, rich history and, uh, Tijuana, Mexico. Wegner Star Days, Tijuana. Let’s go back. We’ve got butt loads. More time, as we always do for recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book, a guy to recruiting your next CEO. Let’s continue our joint. Ah, Ajanta Dennis. Okay, so we’ve checked references, references, and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours And what? They’re meeting some of the staff now, too. And maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our service is,

[00:44:01.29] spk_0:
uh, no, what? We worked a

[00:44:02.76] spk_5:
man that don’t do that made staff

[00:44:05.36] spk_0:
until they are having a pleasant

[00:44:08.26] spk_5:
way.

[00:44:29.60] spk_0:
In actuality, you don’t You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a CEO level. Uh, they have to pick the CEO. If it’s another level. Certainly, if it’s a chief operating officer of chief financial officer, it’s probably appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them, then find out who’s a better fit culture, that line.

[00:44:32.94] spk_5:
But

[00:44:34.11] spk_0:
on a CEO, though, you won’t make it clear that the board is making the decision and I would not have staff involved on interviewing until mating accepted.

[00:44:45.18] spk_3:
So who are they meeting then? In this this day when they’re going to visit the visit? The site.

[00:44:50.16] spk_0:
While so many have gone to the search committee, Obviously, there’s no one else to me except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the CEO

[00:44:58.03] spk_5:
way, our home,

[00:46:29.73] spk_0:
that once a search committee has made a decision, um, before an offer was made, it’s, uh, what the search committee wants to Dio doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wanna search? Committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board, and in many cases, and I will advise us is have that final CEO Warren. The case where there’s too close candidates committed. Meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one, that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants. Don’t waste the time of having to to feel you have to bring a 2nd 1 and you given someone hope when when they’re not probably gonna be selected But I have an interesting story, tony, that you listen, May 1. Here. Uh, about a year ago, we did a search for a CEO, and the search committee had him ranked. Wanted to have this. Ah, woman ranked one and a guy number two. And, um, I had agreed with that recommendation. Thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation. Ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate. And some things came up in discussions. And I think at the end of day, they made the right decision. So don’t forget, the board has the final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee is here to recommend candidates. But do not hire a CEO from a search committee on Lee. They must meet the entire board.

[00:46:35.38] spk_3:
Have you ever heard of co CEOs?

[00:47:32.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I have. And I I found it never. Well, a couple times, it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions so both people take on the role of co CEO. 1 may have responsibility for maybe a certain geography one than another. Ah, one’s focus more on one thing I before not the have it. I think, uh, co CEOs is like co board chairs. Um, it doesn’t make a feeling that anybody is really in charge. Um, I’m working with an organization right now out in California because we do certainly national searches as well as in Canada. And you know, there’s a transition going on and it’s the heart organization. It’s important to know who’s in charge. So if it has to happen and you’re particularly with a merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally, it sooner than later, it’s only a position. You can’t have a Coast CEO. It doesn’t work. I’ve seen co chief development offices, and it doesn’t work either. I mean, I think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion.

[00:48:18.83] spk_3:
Okay, way explored co CEOs with Jean Takagi. So if anyone wants Thio, get more on that. That was the May 19th 2017 show with Gene. Um, Okay. Um all right, we, uh it’s time to negotiate an offer we were, uh we’ve selected our top one. Um, you like guards? Guidestar. They have? I don’t know if you mentioned I know them. Guide star has a good salary guide. Comes out every year. S Oh, it’s it’s current. Um, but do you have other studies that you like?

[00:48:21.17] spk_0:
Yeah, a couple of things here. We have a good sense of what the marketplaces like. Different geography, maybe

[00:48:26.80] spk_5:
waken

[00:48:46.47] spk_0:
use guide star and I. I like your condition well, but here’s the palm and it’s not Guide says bomb. Is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest compensated employees? It’s probably two years old. Um, even if it says 2016 and you’re in 17 it may have been, you know, we were involved in June of 2015 so I don’t rely upon that Nestle as a guide for

[00:48:53.31] spk_5:
making offer. I

[00:49:23.71] spk_0:
know what the organization, um, is looking to pay. I know what What? The Sally is people that are looking, and then we I advise because I’m involved in every single. So I advise my client is what I think it’s gonna take to get the person I’ve seen clients do salary surveys using Geiser and other things that commit some other compensations. Raise. There’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that. You don’t know what the performance of the organization has been. You don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what how well they’ve done with fund raising.

[00:49:30.20] spk_5:
You

[00:49:39.63] spk_0:
know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So one of the advantages of doing what? What the rate is to attract some money, and that’s kind of what we do.

[00:49:43.61] spk_3:
Okay, let’s spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you just gotta buy the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book. But I wanna spend last couple minutes just about two minutes or so on on on boarding. This is a board responsive board responsibility.

[00:50:09.19] spk_0:
Well, that’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to CEOs, I mean, half of them have never been on border. So what? What do you mean by sort of on board a candidate? Well, are on boarding. I’m boarding. If you don’t get on board, you get hired, and then you start, and then you go, Jeez, I don’t know. This is the way. Itwas

[00:50:15.06] spk_3:
you know, you’re not supported in your new digital, John. So

[00:50:25.65] spk_0:
I know what you on boarding refers to. The idea of preparing a CEO to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components

[00:50:26.92] spk_5:
of the new

[00:51:14.06] spk_0:
role and or to the board here really, very important that be some type of on boarding process. So, as an example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about with on boarding. Here is, um let’s be clear. So both the board and the CEO and again, you could say the same thing about a CEO or CFO. What? She’s development officer. Same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly, that’s gonna come up. Don’t interview puzzle, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair I want to communicate to the CEO? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other Friday? Did they want e mails or not e mails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the CEO to accomplish in the 1st 30 days or 60 days, or maybe 180

[00:51:21.37] spk_5:
days.

[00:51:27.63] spk_0:
What the cultural issues or financial issues that the organization is facing. What senior members of the team may have some performances. The watch out for who were the key stakeholders outside the organization, like donors of volunteers that you want the seal to make sure that building wishes perhaps, maybe with a local Congress person or a member of the Senate Assembly here.

[00:51:46.27] spk_3:
Dennis Dennis. We gotta leave it there. There’s too much.

[00:51:49.16] spk_5:
All right. Thank

[00:52:08.43] spk_3:
you so much, Dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guy to recruiting your next CEO. You’ll find it at Dennis c. Miller dot com, and you’ll find him at Dennis C. Miller next week. We don’t have any show, so I’m wishing you happy. Turkey Day. Help you enjoy your Thanksgiving. I hope it’s time away from work, including email and text.

[00:52:19.61] spk_4:
If texting is part of your work,

[00:53:03.64] spk_3:
um, and time with family, family and maybe even dear friends. I hope you enjoy your Thanksgiving. We’ll be back on December 6th with Vivian Hexter on Big Impact. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers

[00:53:44.00] spk_2:
Clad Meyerhoff. Sam Leave, which is the lying producer thief shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Knew every next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% will actually be with me in two weeks for big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for November 15, 2019: Music To Major Gifts

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[00:00:14.64] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:00:22.54] spk_2:
I’m your aptly named host.

[00:00:24.08] spk_1:
Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into exile,

[00:01:20.84] spk_2:
Fauria. If I saw that you missed today’s show music to major GIF ts No one dreams of being a fundraiser. It’s a non profit truism, and it’s Mitchell Lincoln’s book. He and his music are with me for the hour. This originally aired on December 1st 2017 on Tony’s Take to I’m Looking for Innovators were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and here is music to major gif ts. What a pleasure. Welcome Mitch Linker to the studio. He is a professional fundraiser in education and author of No one Dreams of Being a Fundraiser. My unexpected journey from music to Major gif ts

[00:01:30.28] spk_1:
Welcome studio, Mitch, Thanks a lot. I’m grateful to be here. That’s a pleasure. Yes, I’m a fan of the show. Thank

[00:01:37.57] spk_2:
you. Thank you. Well, that that’s a prerequisite to being get now. It’s actually,

[00:01:39.77] spk_1:
uh, it helps. It helps. Sucking up definitely helps. Don’t Don’t suck up to them. And you look great today. Yes. Thank you. I got a lot

[00:01:46.21] spk_2:
of crushing questions for you. Don’t worry.

[00:01:47.54] spk_1:
Okay. Um, all right. So music to major gift. That was That’s Thea. That’s York. That’s your story. Yeah. Story so far at least. Okay. Oh, so there may be another career. Well, given

[00:01:59.05] spk_4:
my track record, there could be several. Yeah.

[00:02:00.90] spk_2:
Oh, I see. All right, so there may be, like, fundraiser to French

[00:02:04.57] spk_1:
teacher. Okay, I think

[00:02:05.78] spk_4:
I’m I think I found my found like Okay,

[00:02:14.48] spk_2:
cool. All right. So, music, young age. Yeah. I’m talking to a former professional musician that you

[00:02:19.33] spk_1:
professionals, a little charitable, much money song made money to defend, not a living

[00:02:22.97] spk_2:
by are barely squeaking. No credit cards were important to you.

[00:02:28.20] spk_1:
Wake up to some of that. All right, But, you know, we got to start with the early days. So the kiss concert 1979. Yeah, very important to you. And

[00:02:40.39] spk_2:
your brother. Um, you pleaded pleaded with your dad. He took you. Why? Why? What happened while I was still big to you?

[00:02:42.34] spk_1:
You know? I don’t

[00:02:43.07] spk_4:
know. It was at a time in my life there was some personal turmoil going on, you know? And so I think it became something that I could cling to some transitions going on. And what

[00:02:53.72] spk_1:
about kiss? Kiss? I was the makeup, the makeup. It’s funny, The music.

[00:02:57.71] spk_4:
Not so much. It was the makeup I just remembered. Like tracing their faces on that old tracing paper.

[00:03:01.98] spk_2:
Yes. I don’t have a trace of

[00:03:03.01] spk_1:
onion skin. Yeah, exactly. You traced over it with a pencil? Yeah. Became obsessed with them. And who’s your

[00:03:08.47] spk_2:
favorite in the band?

[00:03:13.03] spk_4:
It was Gene. Gene Simmons had to be late. Was I should say, Was it waas?

[00:03:19.80] spk_1:
I don’t have a favorite, and you know, he’s around. Back in the day,

[00:03:24.52] spk_4:
he was the guy. There was something just so you know, demonic and terrifying about you weren’t loved.

[00:03:26.62] spk_2:
You had never seen him live.

[00:03:27.81] spk_4:
Never seen them live.

[00:03:29.40] spk_2:
Dad took you And your impression. What can you remember?

[00:04:00.10] spk_4:
Well, the problem was which I talk about in the book was that I got sick. I think I was probably too young to be on the show. I was seven and I just didn’t feel well. I think the noise, the just the overall stimulation of it all. I just remember sitting there kind of crying and upset the whole time. And I remember seeing it. I remember seeing Jim Gene Simmons flying and I I have vivid memories of the experience, especially considering how long ago it was. But it wasn’t a happy memory on that. I want it getting sick and I went down health.

[00:04:00.76] spk_2:
All right, so So I mean, that’s all right. That’s not a great memory. So why, Why Continued in music or what? Well, you’re only seven, then

[00:04:12.59] spk_1:
you’re still doing your still dabbling in music a little bit at a young age. Obviously it

[00:04:17.34] spk_4:
was obviously, it’s part of sort of the tableau of how I became a musician, because I mean, and I continue to be fascinated with them for years and years, So that was sort of my gateway. Um, so

[00:04:23.95] spk_1:
yeah, it was very formidable. For whatever reason, I’m sure

[00:04:27.21] spk_4:
a lot of people have that story or some variation cause kiss spoke to young kids during that era.

[00:04:40.99] spk_2:
All right? Yeah, but you got sick, and then you’re still continue to you know, you’re well, everything is Everything is life or death. When you’re seven years old, it’s so important to you. Everything is you know, the red wagon was important, but all right, but all right,

[00:04:48.08] spk_1:
you continued on. Um, so your music career was kind of like I

[00:04:52.54] spk_2:
see, like, 3 to 1. There were three people in the dent. Yeah. Then you were down to two with the day traders.

[00:05:00.70] spk_1:
Man, you did your home Any whatsoever, the ball. I appreciate what you remembered it. I do have it written down, but I do remember I’m looking in his eyes. I’m saying, now, that was the dent and the day traders and then ends and then solo eso

[00:05:15.79] spk_2:
and the day traders was too. There was a to person to person act. All right, Um, the

[00:05:18.36] spk_1:
dent was important to Yeah. Now. All right. I just want to set the scene. Now. You grew up in you Grew up in West Hartford. No, no, I was originally New

[00:05:24.17] spk_4:
York City. When I was very young and I moved to Connecticut. My family moved to connect, okay, and I’ve

[00:05:29.64] spk_1:
been in Connecticut. Everyone’s not West Hartford,

[00:05:37.13] spk_4:
no Fairfield County, Fairfield, Fairfield. And that I’ve been in the central heart, Central Connecticut region, like West Hartford since the year 2000.

[00:05:38.26] spk_1:
Okay, now I know

[00:05:41.73] spk_2:
West Hartford. I mean, I guess as I was growing up in North Jersey, I don’t know if this is still true. Um, what started? It was very wealthy community because a lot of insurance companies were based in Hartford, right? And then a lot of senior executive lives in West Hartford, right? That was a pretty exclusive place. And in fact, I remember when I was, ah planned giving director, visiting a potential donor who was a retired insurance executive in West Hartford. And he had a huge house. I don’t know. It was hard for

[00:06:05.35] spk_1:
you when you were growing

[00:06:06.32] spk_2:
up. Was it still that way?

[00:06:07.45] spk_1:
What’s offered is

[00:06:08.00] spk_4:
a great place there. There are a lot of really great quality of life sort of suburban towns in central Connecticut, glass and very Avon and West Hartford. Certainly. Probably the top.

[00:06:16.75] spk_2:
Okay, but that’s not where you grew up

[00:06:22.02] spk_4:
in Fairfield. Careful, County. If you feel count well, fearful

[00:06:23.10] spk_2:
of the town. The town in Fairfield County knows that Southern at Southern Connecticut, near New York City, that it’s a good place for commuters to live. But there is also a town named Fairfield

[00:06:32.20] spk_1:
and felt very

[00:06:33.06] spk_4:
far like when I moved to central Connecticut. Like the only time I ever went to Central Connecticut was to go to the Hartford Civic Center to see things like kiss concerts when I lived down in Fairfield County. Okay, so it was.

[00:06:42.92] spk_1:
Even though it’s a small state,

[00:06:44.30] spk_4:
they’re two very distinct areas.

[00:06:46.11] spk_2:
All right. And

[00:06:49.40] spk_1:
you were You were a musical act in Connecticut. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you made something

[00:06:52.81] spk_2:
of a name for yourself in Connecticut.

[00:07:01.11] spk_1:
I like to think so. The hostess joking. Excuse me. Yeah. Okay. Um, starting with the dent. You and two friends? Yeah. Tell us about the dead. Yeah,

[00:07:15.92] spk_4:
Boy, man, do we go back? I were talking Jeff and I My God, we would play with tennis rockets before we could actually play instruments when we’re positive way. And then we segue way too real instruments. As we got older in high school, and and then we met Dan. So, yeah, the

[00:07:22.27] spk_1:
three of us

[00:07:25.81] spk_4:
go way, way back to, like, 15 years old. And, um And then as we got older, we got more serious and started actually writing songs and obviously playing our own instruments. And then it just became

[00:07:32.76] spk_2:
all right. You want a karaoke band

[00:07:33.98] spk_1:
now? You actually did play instruments? Yeah. We actually played instruments. And yours. Yours was originally

[00:07:39.13] spk_4:
I was a drummer. And then I was, ah, demoted to lead singer.

[00:07:44.14] spk_1:
Okay, I play piano

[00:07:45.75] spk_4:
took for writing purposes, but I’m not good at have never been proficient.

[00:07:49.18] spk_1:
Okay, That shows that such a

[00:07:50.27] spk_4:
difficult question for me to answer. I say I’m a musician. People ask what I do, and I get this 10 minute answer.

[00:08:01.54] spk_1:
Well, it just depends how detailed you want to do anything ridiculous. Well, all right. All right. That’s okay. But you played okay. All right, let’s go out. Let’s go out for

[00:08:39.24] spk_2:
our first break. Sure. Um, Well, uh, yeah, with which is me, um, speaking. And, uh and so if you stand by, um, Central Brick. Okay, it’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. Does your accountant return your calls and e mails. Do they keep to their deadlines? Do you like them? Are they nice people toe work with? Are they keeping mistakes to a minimum? If these aren’t all yeses, then maybe it’s time to look for a replacement. You know, a partner at wegner-C.P.As euh Doom. But on the show many times. Gonna be coming back early next year. You start at wegner-C.P.As dot com, check them out, and

[00:08:42.15] spk_1:
then ring him up. Give him a call,

[00:09:13.14] spk_2:
Talk to eat, See if wegner can help you wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to music to major gif ts Now back. Too much liquor and his book. Um, nobody dreams of being a fundraiser. All right, so the dent was, uh it took time. I mean, it was hard to get traction. Yeah, you didn’t have a book or you don’t have an agent, right? You were recording doing some gigs. What

[00:09:13.67] spk_1:
happened? Funny, I would

[00:09:16.33] spk_4:
recommend that everyone write a book because for me, even if very few people read it, it was like therapy. And I

[00:09:23.17] spk_1:
learned a lot

[00:09:23.69] spk_4:
about my started process. And to your question, one of the things I realize in hindsight because we struggled so much. We were so focused on this dream but had difficulty, as you say, getting traction.

[00:09:34.71] spk_1:
Part of it

[00:09:35.14] spk_4:
was in some sense, we weren’t all in, and I realized about that about myself. You know, I wasn’t the type of guy who’s gonna live in a van for six months in total squalor like I loved writing songs. I loved music

[00:09:47.45] spk_1:
and I did love traveling, but I just never was able to

[00:09:49.61] spk_4:
kind of make that full life commitment. And I

[00:09:53.22] spk_1:
only realized

[00:09:53.93] spk_4:
that in retrospect, I guess that’s sort of an aside. But

[00:09:56.87] spk_1:
that’s one of the 50

[00:09:57.91] spk_4:
things I learned about myself in the process of writing this thing. And so it’s

[00:10:01.78] spk_1:
sort of helped me realize Oh yeah,

[00:10:16.47] spk_4:
that’s that’s that’s what happened to an extent, maybe we didn’t commit as much as we should have. We committed to the writing and, like the dream was there. But as far as what you actually need to boot to d’oh, it’s so difficult and unpleasant.

[00:10:17.60] spk_2:
Yeah, maybe you over romanticized

[00:10:19.57] spk_1:
it. I

[00:10:19.83] spk_4:
think so. Yeah. Yeah. Now how

[00:10:24.34] spk_2:
do you feel about your commitment to fund raising today?

[00:10:25.38] spk_4:
0 100%. Okay? Yeah. No, I feel like this is my do over.

[00:10:29.29] spk_1:
So here. Okay, that’s what I’m trying to get it. But as you were a musician is still

[00:10:33.98] spk_2:
with the Dent. You felt like you were committed. Then Did

[00:10:36.00] spk_1:
you feel committed then, Do you think? I mean, is it possible to look back and say,

[00:10:45.20] spk_2:
You know, there were times when I just really wasn’t sure I should be doing it, but I kept kept on or did you feel like you were all in then? But now, looking back, you feel like you weren’t.

[00:10:49.04] spk_4:
That’s a great question. That’s why you’re good at this.

[00:10:51.18] spk_1:
Cool. I got scored one, Okay. Initiating host. Because I think to

[00:10:55.97] spk_4:
some degree, I probably always knew and

[00:10:58.51] spk_1:
part of

[00:11:02.32] spk_4:
it. And this is another epiphany. I kind of wondered why I think the dent we just kind of stayed with each other out of familiarity, familiarity and comfort were best friends.

[00:11:08.18] spk_1:
Maybe that

[00:11:36.58] spk_4:
wasn’t the best sort of trio. Maybe that wasn’t the best partnership for over all of us. And perhaps if I had not, I was just so so committed to these guys. Maybe if I had gone solo earlier or met someone else or one of them met someone else. Maybe I would have sort of hitch my wagon to a different thing and momentum would have occurred. There was just something about the dynamic of the three of us that, in a way held us back. And I think on some level I knew that. I really do know now in hindsight, so great, much

[00:11:44.34] spk_1:
interesting. Okay, now Ah, there’s a lot of hard

[00:11:59.82] spk_2:
work. There’s a lot of there’s some overlap between being a struggling musician band, right? And fundraising, right? You point out Rejection. Networking? Yeah. Um um And you have 1/3 1 too? Oh, well, a thick skin. I guess that’s partly right. Partly that’s affiliated with rejection. Do you feel like some of what you faced negatively with the dent And then the day traders, you know, actually helped you in fundraising?

[00:12:15.65] spk_1:
Yes. And that’s

[00:12:34.34] spk_4:
a thing. Well, I well, despite what I just said, you know, in my mind I was generally all in and it was all I thought about. And as I talk about the book constantly pounding the pavement, trying to get gigs, trying t o get a record deal. That was really that was that was the fingers. And so,

[00:12:35.59] spk_1:
you know, there was a real

[00:12:36.66] spk_4:
commitment there, and yeah, it was just constant rejection, like anyone Good thing would happen and it would be almost a surprise

[00:12:59.29] spk_1:
radio. You want us to know exactly what was wrong with you? Sure Got a judge to make it a little hasty. Take the weekend to think about it, and then let us know if you actually wanted to play next Friday. References of people who protected us. So that did

[00:13:15.96] spk_4:
inadvertently trained me. And I talk about that a lot in the book, which is how you came to the question. But, um, yeah, I was used to rejection. I was used to things being difficult, used to the struggle. And when I started to have success in something that that wasn’t music, which was the fundraising, it

[00:13:18.22] spk_1:
was just

[00:13:35.37] spk_4:
amazing. It was like this incredible epiphany. And that’s the ironic thing is there were so many periods of time in the early days and music days when I thought, Am I wasting my life? Certainly people in my life probably thought I might be needing to make a pivot, but it turned out to to be great training what I encourage anyone to do. What I did is their path to fundraising. Not necessarily, but

[00:13:41.83] spk_1:
everybody’s got some path to it. And

[00:13:44.81] spk_2:
rarely, as your title suggests, Is it linear

[00:13:52.67] spk_4:
right? I don’t know that I sort of have the confidence in the fortitude and the desire that I have now if I hadn’t gone through that, so I have no regrets, though there is a period of time where it felt dark.

[00:13:59.98] spk_1:
They have a day job during the transition. 3 to 1 drink. Maybe that’s part of

[00:14:04.21] spk_4:
the commitment thing. I never just quit that job and completely did it. I was getting a little too scared. That’s probably what I mean. When I say, like, was I fully in? I think I’ve always had a little too much of a fear factor,

[00:14:33.73] spk_2:
actually, even interesting. Now, your second band, we’re not gonna really dwell on the second band. Yes, two of you, But day trader I mean, that’s not they’re not all day traders. I don’t consider being all in. It’s not like they’re invested in a Wall Street career. I mean, they’re in a stock for a couple hours, and then they’re out. So, yeah, maybe there was something pressing it about that name of nose. I don’t know what I’m saying.

[00:14:53.20] spk_1:
Yeah, it was. Now that I’m not being very impressed by perceptive, I think about this. Joe doesn’t just come together. Country popular, believe. Get email. Like, you know, this is a slapdash Oh, I love it. But I know it’s not that, you know, it’s not true. All right, So the day job was you were you were involved in nonprofits eventually

[00:14:53.91] spk_4:
landed in non profits for a while. I had a dalliance is with several different random things on, and eventually I stumbled upon non profits. I know awareness of the nonprofit sector.

[00:15:03.40] spk_2:
Alien says good work. Thank you, but I’m sure not probably radio listeners will know that we’re but it’s good work.

[00:15:16.40] spk_4:
Every now and then, I’ll pull one out. But that was probably the only time in this show. So when I first started in development, who wasn’t conscious really was more just a job,

[00:15:21.70] spk_2:
he needed a justice in their life, right? My love of

[00:15:24.72] spk_1:
exactly. Exactly. And it worked well for a

[00:15:26.43] spk_4:
while. It was very, uh,

[00:15:33.52] spk_2:
there was a time when you became a lot more intentional about a career in development. Starting to music. Music was not paying off, right? I was getting old. Yes. You’re getting older.

[00:15:39.41] spk_1:
How would you know? I think we should set the contact. How do you know

[00:15:41.45] spk_4:
I am? Wow. This is

[00:15:55.40] spk_2:
gonna come. I mean, you wrote a book about your life held 45 0 k. 45 Much anger. I get 10 years on you. All right. That’s a good thing. This is a podcast. Nobody contest that assertion that you just made. Um, you could go on the website making tony-martignetti dot com make your own decision about whether which looks younger.

[00:16:04.03] spk_1:
It was saying that I was indicative. I think people should draw that conclusion on the run.

[00:16:11.62] spk_2:
I think it is a self serving pathetic, you know, sounds presidential Almost. Okay, We don’t do politics. I’m not profit radio.

[00:16:13.84] spk_1:
So you became a little intentional? Uh, yeah. Things were not

[00:16:17.65] spk_2:
going well. Money tight music, floundering. Really? Your own gig. You’re on your solo career. You said you canceled. You cancel every gig. You’re in your music and your solo career, right? Literally canceled every gig. That

[00:16:30.29] spk_1:
Yeah. And then the whole thing

[00:16:31.61] spk_4:
is that when I think I feel like I actually started to find my voice and got better at music, I was at a point where I was too late. Like I said earlier, I was in these bands and I was felt beholden to these other people. And

[00:16:42.17] spk_1:
then when I

[00:16:42.42] spk_4:
finally went solo, I felt like I gotta groove. But at that point, I had a lot of debt. I was getting older, and and then what really happened? Was he The economy tanked out, and I don’t. So yeah, I felt so vulnerable. And I thought, Well, I’m already in development. I’m gonna make this my thing. And I just completely abandoned music at that time,

[00:16:59.99] spk_2:
Okay? Now And that you were doing database management. And then you moved into Prospect Research. Yeah, around this’ll 87 4008

[00:17:07.92] spk_1:
recession time or a little bit earlier. I was doing well.

[00:17:15.64] spk_4:
You said advancement surfaces. Then I was broadening it a little, but it was still not I was doing major gifts, you

[00:17:18.02] spk_1:
know, So but generally

[00:17:19.02] spk_4:
I was sort of the research guy

[00:17:24.60] spk_1:
back. Still back office? Yes. Something you talk about. Two bosses

[00:17:35.42] spk_2:
were discouraged. You and one who encouraged you. Um, discouraging ones. What we wantto little cautionary tale. How did they discovered you in your, uh Because you had expressed an interest to them in right of career and fundraising and furthering your working fundraising and two people discouraged you. How so?

[00:17:42.23] spk_1:
Well, I think in an

[00:17:44.94] spk_4:
in hindsight, maybe I would have discouraged me, too, because I was still kind of like a young punk. You know, I guess I still had an air of

[00:17:53.21] spk_2:
I mean, they would you respect him? You worked for them?

[00:17:54.94] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, when it was never malicious.

[00:17:56.67] spk_4:
But I think I just I didn’t look the part at the time. You know, our act, the part. Probably. I probably acted young and,

[00:18:03.45] spk_1:
you know, I was very

[00:18:20.03] spk_4:
vocal about my love of music. So I’ve sort of had me compartmentalized. I write eso then to suddenly say, I want to do this very serious, very diametric opposite you. Another good word of trick.

[00:18:20.52] spk_2:
Oh, that’s not a good word.

[00:18:21.40] spk_4:
I don’t know. Did he use it wrong?

[00:18:23.75] spk_2:
No. It depends what you mean. We’re not gonna flush it out, but I don’t think it’s good. Okay, now I’m

[00:18:30.44] spk_1:
gonna move on, okay? So that I’ll point out the vocabulary. You have got to stop myself. You really do. I’ll point out that I don’t. Who will? I’ll

[00:18:46.66] spk_2:
point out the high points, and we’ll let listeners make most of the decisions on their own. Okay. Um, So ah, so

[00:18:47.55] spk_1:
let’s talk about the guy

[00:18:48.23] spk_2:
who are the man or woman who inspired you. Somebody believed in you. Yeah. What? That person,

[00:18:53.32] spk_1:
a few people along the way just sort of

[00:19:02.99] spk_4:
recognize that I had, um ah, personality. That might be, um, suitable. Yeah. Thank you. Um,

[00:19:05.36] spk_1:
that. And I

[00:19:06.16] spk_4:
guess I I was always

[00:19:10.25] spk_1:
conducive. That was good, E. I think part of it

[00:19:18.18] spk_4:
was just I had a lot of different ages. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think I was, um, that I had an energy and a zeal, and and so, um,

[00:19:27.41] spk_1:
it’s a man or a woman. It was a few people long encouraged me, and maybe we

[00:19:49.73] spk_2:
should be seeing people beneath the surface and look at what traits they possess and how those might actually uh, transform into a fundraising career or anything in no profit so that, you know, we peel away the layer. Let’s not judge a book by the cover. And there are There are traits that people have that could be valuable to non profit.

[00:19:52.48] spk_1:
And yeah, we should try to see

[00:19:53.71] spk_2:
that if if we’re ever in this kind of situation,

[00:20:10.73] spk_4:
I agree. And I’m deeply grateful for that for that encouragement, cause at that point in my life, I hadn’t had much encouragement. You know, I’d sort of just been on my own trying this thing, and it wasn’t really working out. And then, um, it goes such a long way. And yeah, I agree that it was sort of a raw skill energy. Whatever I had that had sort of a few people had noticed. And I was grateful for that. And I would have never really come to that on my own.

[00:20:58.81] spk_2:
You say that you perceived fundraising as the guys in Glengarry Glen Ross, which happens to be a favorite movie of mine. But you know, if those who may not know it it is excellent. Um uh, Al Pacino. Ah, Walter Matthau. No, no, Jack Lemmon couple Al Pacino. Alec Baldwin. Very, very small but very pivotal role. Al Pacino. Jack Lemmon, Alan Arkin. Excellent. Ed Harris. Excellent. Kevin Spacey. Yep. Excellent. Yeah. Um okay, so these are these are shyster real estate people. We get the I didn’t get the idea for a movie that they’re spending selling marshland in Florida people. Um and that was sort of your perception of

[00:21:07.95] spk_1:
gifts, of asking people for money and, you know, part of

[00:21:24.70] spk_4:
it’s funny. I remember I went to this conference early on, and I was I was doing research at the time, and I went to this. It’s very funny nights. I went to this, um, dinner, and it was basically major gift people. I don’t even know why I went to it. Um, you may have been that it was for everybody, but was predominately major, give people and like, the volume of that room was so loud, it was just a bunch of what I perceived as extroverts. Just really sort of out there confident people,

[00:21:35.44] spk_1:
and part of

[00:21:58.67] spk_4:
it from he was a jealousy, because I had been so just estranged from that world order. I was just a very small world, and I wasn’t very confident. And then I saw these people in these personalities, and I just thought, Man, that’s what fundraising must be. You’ve got to be this big, outgoing person. I can’t do that. That’s not my personality. And I know where you’re going with this, but basically, I came to realize you don’t necessarily have to be that way. Um, but it was just It was so intimidating to me. And then when I unpeeled back what I thought a major gift officer does and what they do Dio it just seems so scary. And it just I sort of pigeonholed. You have to be a certain type of person who is outgoing and brave and frankly, all the things in many ways you do need to be. But it was so different from how I perceive myself.

[00:22:25.21] spk_2:
I don’t know how you know where I’m going, because I don’t know where I’m going.

[00:22:27.38] spk_1:
Okay, great. I’m sure I’m not sure how you’ve mastered that thing. Seems like a good place. We’re gonna play one of Mitch’s song.

[00:22:32.65] spk_4:
Oh, my gosh.

[00:22:33.27] spk_2:
Um, it’s Ah, it’s better. This is the dent. Is that this? Is

[00:22:36.44] spk_1:
this is me. So this is a solo. I’m sorry. Okay, Is the last thing I don’t know things air. You know, he’s making his transition now.

[00:22:49.39] spk_2:
Getting serious about, uh ah. Career in in fundraising. So things are looking up. It’s Ah, Mitch linker. Yeah. So low.

[00:22:52.66] spk_4:
So low.

[00:22:53.08] spk_2:
Better. Anything else you want to say to lead

[00:22:54.56] spk_1:
into it? Well, this was never

[00:22:56.88] spk_4:
never It was recorded as a demo, but it never went anywhere. I never did an album, you know. I didn’t put it on iTunes or anything that this was right at the moment that I basically stopped. So this is the first time anyone in the world

[00:23:08.73] spk_1:
All right, so it’s a podcast, so you can play it back. You’re not gonna buy it anywhere. You cannot buy it. Give me a

[00:23:14.37] spk_4:
call when you got

[00:23:15.21] spk_1:
here. It is better.

[00:24:57.94] spk_8:
Which way to go? Wait. No way.

[00:28:36.99] spk_2:
Which linker better? You heard here on non profit radio. The only place you will when you take a break. Cougar Mountain software, This s o the musical interlude into musical segue Way into the break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What does that mean for you? It’s got what you are looking for, like fund accounting. Are you using spreadsheets to manage all those restricted funds that you have? That’s that’s not that’s not great. That’s not efficient, Cooler Mountain and also has fraud protection as well as the fund accounting. They have a free 60 day trial. You’ll find that on the list of our landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s Take two. I’m still looking for innovators for our 2020 Siri’s. That might be you. Or is it someone you know who’s contrary to conventional wisdom and tradition? Are you tackling something differently and you’ve got some success to show added as well, then I’d like to talk to you because you might very well work out as a guest for the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020 And again, if it’s not you, how about a colleague? Somebody you know? Whoever it is, you can email tony at tony-martignetti dot com, or you can use the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. I’d like to talk to you, and that is tony. Take

[00:28:37.83] spk_1:
two. Let’s do the live love. Um, right here in the U. S. of a We got Tampa, Florida, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York and San Lorenzo, California Just a

[00:29:53.21] spk_2:
couple. Just a couple. That’s fine. And going abroad. Yeah. Mallika Mexico Buena Star Days, Republic of Korea and Seoul, South Korea. Get Republic of Korea is just the country. You can see the can see the city there. But that’s all right. But we do know soul is with us. So of course, on your house. Oh, I’m sorry. And also, uh, the Republic of Iran is with us. Live love to Iran Sham Do India, Bangkok, Thailand, Osaka, Japan Live love out to each of our lives listeners, whether domestic or abroad. Naturally. And the podcast Pleasantries to our over 13,000 listeners in the time shift. So glad that you were with us. Thank you for listening in whichever form live or archive. Um, let’s go back. Thio Mitch Linker and music to major gif ts. Okay, Mitch Linker, we’re back to you now. Thank you for standing by. Thank you for your minor contributions. Okay,

[00:29:54.42] spk_1:
So things are picking up and you start to self teach yourself. You, uh you got conferences? Books? You’re diving in? Yeah, self self education.

[00:30:10.51] spk_4:
Yeah, Yeah, I just immerse myself again. I completely abandoned music. Um, to this day, I haven’t, um and I just committed myself 100% thio fundraising, and yeah, I just I tried Thio Network as much as I could. And

[00:30:20.78] spk_2:
this wasn’t a cringe moment for you when I played better. Was it?

[00:30:23.80] spk_1:
Um, you’re dying inside. You’re dying inside where? It’s a little embarrassing. That’s okay. Really. No. I mean, I’m proud of you. I’m proud of it. Well, there you go. All right. No

[00:30:32.65] spk_2:
embarrassment. All right. You may feel embarrassed, but

[00:30:35.73] spk_4:
you’re gonna play the whole

[00:30:59.37] spk_1:
thing. But that sample here we were all in non profit. It was all a 100% in committed to the worst humor. But I committed to it. That’s that’s what distinguishes most people would cut their losses. Oh, no, not me. Oh, I’m in. I’ll be the joke to death till I fell. Either I get sick of it, Which that’s a very high threshold. And that’s happening right now you’re witnessing It. Says you says you you’re not one

[00:31:10.19] spk_2:
to judge. Uh, I don’t know why. I just I’m just declaring You sure you’re not. You’re not judgment worthy. All right,

[00:31:12.94] spk_1:
So you, uh you developed a cut. You Eventually, you you found a coach. You found a couple of coaches. Yeah, Mentors. This is

[00:31:20.34] spk_2:
important to you as your sort of rate moving your way into. Now you’re in major gifts and you’re blowing some things

[00:31:24.96] spk_1:
which everyone does. This is not an embarrassment. I have

[00:31:31.14] spk_2:
not as many as you, but I’ve blown things. Um, coach and mentor. Mentors. Coach is very important to you.

[00:31:34.27] spk_1:
One of

[00:32:23.47] spk_4:
the few key takeaways for anyone who’s might be interested in the book or maybe thinking about major gifts. One of them is for me was transformational. And, um, I just think everyone should probably, no matter what you’re doing in life would be great to have a coach and mentor. But for me, having that like one on one dialogue, having someone you can go to and runs situations by and sort of talk things out with someone who has experience and has been around the block and they’ve seen everything. It really changed my life because I was struggling. I again I educated myself. But when I was trying to practically apple apply what I had read or studied. I just wasn’t comfortable in this guy. And then a number of people who I met, I A long list of mentors really changed everything for me. And so again, anything in life you probably need people to look up to, but certainly with major gifts, I would definitely encourage anyone to just find someone outside of your environment outside of your job. Somebody doesn’t know the players who can objectively just sort of look at situations and talking through them.

[00:32:35.30] spk_1:
And if you are someone who’s experienced looks to take on, look, to help people, I mean, we need further the profession. Not only,

[00:32:41.78] spk_2:
you know, of course, yes, if you are new to the profession. Absolutely. Mitchell’s vice advice is very sound. But

[00:32:46.06] spk_1:
if you’re immortal, more experience. Yeah, look, to look, to help way gotta elevate the profession, whether it’s fundraising or whether it is one of the back office. Yeah, important back office functions give processing or reason process Prospect research, database management. You know, we gotta elevate you gotta elevate the profession. We all have a responsibility to bring up those of us who are, uh or newer Yeah, you know, and it’s and it’s so much fun.

[00:33:10.70] spk_4:
It’s fun. T. And I think most people want to give back and want to help. And, um, you know, the few times I’ve had the opportunity to kind of pay it forward, I found an incredibly fulfilling. So you’re right. It’s a two way street. And

[00:33:21.57] spk_2:
you tell some very good stories in the book about how just simple conversations. Get a 30 minute conversation, you know, huge sea epiphanies.

[00:33:28.11] spk_4:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:33:39.12] spk_2:
Is that a mixed metaphor? See epiphanies having epiphany? Can you see an epiphany? I don’t know. You could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Let’s stick with that. I don’t know if you see an epiphany or you just Can you stand? Can you see an epiphany? Sam doesn’t know. Yes, crystals. He’s the man surrounded by crystals, but

[00:33:44.14] spk_1:
I think it’s happened. I thought about it.

[00:33:45.73] spk_4:
I think it’s having epiphanies that you haven’t.

[00:33:48.70] spk_2:
Okay. All right,

[00:33:51.52] spk_1:
um, us. Let’s Now. You’re

[00:34:15.20] spk_2:
a bona fide major gift officer. You’re getting over the hurdles, thanks to the coaches. Mentors. Um, you’ve got some practical advice that you like around. Um, let’s start with the donor. Now you’re in a solicitation, right? Meeting don’t preemption. That was a tough one for you. One guy. One guy wrangled you twice. Meaning, Go ahead. I’ll let you explain preemption in case someone’s not aware. What are you talking

[00:34:20.25] spk_1:
about? I don’t know. I don’t pretend that might be

[00:34:21.97] spk_4:
a term that I just

[00:34:22.88] spk_1:
you know, I don’t wanna fight. You have. You know,

[00:34:31.34] spk_4:
basically, when you have a number in mind or a gift you want to talk about and then the donor, they had you off the path

[00:34:32.12] spk_1:
early in the conversation. Oh, don’t worry about Yeah, I know why you’re here. I’m gonna give the $3000 I gave you. General, you’ve got 50

[00:34:38.39] spk_2:
1000 in your mind. Exactly. They’re committed to their $3000 from last year.

[00:34:42.20] spk_1:
That’s one of

[00:34:42.79] spk_4:
100 things that air the type of scenarios that are difficult to navigate. It really only know through experience and through having

[00:34:49.62] spk_1:
the experiences you didn’t fail. You have to fail, get some help from a coach mentor and go out and do it again. Exact Gotta You gotta keep taking bites of the apple. Right? So it’s a little practical

[00:35:00.45] spk_2:
advice around preemption. What do you do? You throw out

[00:35:03.95] spk_1:
what happened. Okay, Lets a hypothetical

[00:35:13.33] spk_2:
Well, from the book you’ve got. I remember I forget what number you had in mind, but let’s stick with my hypothetical, okay? Yeah, You’ve got 50,000 Your mind In the 1st 5 minutes of conversation, you agreed. The person he says, Look, I know why you’re here. Um, I promise you, I’m going to the same 3000 I did last year. And then he pivots to a different subject. Now you’re off that you’re off the giving subject, thanks to the right, the donor and the preemption. What’s your advice?

[00:35:30.39] spk_1:
Well, you know, it depends

[00:35:31.69] spk_4:
largely on the report. If you feel a comfort, that sort of eye for my experience will dictate how far you’re gonna push. Sometimes you just gonna say thank you and move on and hope the next time you can growing more prepared.

[00:35:43.09] spk_1:
You know, I think sometimes maybe thank you, but thank you.

[00:35:45.59] spk_4:
But which is sort of what I was

[00:35:47.39] spk_1:
going to

[00:35:49.11] spk_4:
say that you know, if you have a report, there’s comfort If you just sort of very authentically and genuinely and politely say, That’s great. I appreciate that. But, you know, I’ve really been looking forward to talk with you. I have a couple ideas that I actually wanted to share with you. Would it be OK to let you know we were thinking,

[00:36:02.23] spk_1:
You know, most times people are gonna say Okay,

[00:36:11.99] spk_4:
sure. We want to hear what you had in mind. And maybe it’s tied to a naming opportunity that it’s a zoo has a certain level That sort of dictates that love. Yeah, you know, sort of those things that are our scholarship at a certain minimum. So they’re these tools to kind of help you navigate that. But

[00:36:21.41] spk_1:
really,

[00:36:27.83] spk_4:
it’s having the boldness and then the comfort Thio continue that conversation. And sometimes it goes well and, you know, it really all depends.

[00:36:31.03] spk_2:
Yeah. Okay. You talk about, um, urgency, urgency and contacts. Yeah. You like those

[00:36:35.98] spk_4:
Those? That’s what I learned from my key mentor.

[00:36:40.98] spk_1:
Okay, push it out. Yeah. You know, context is just sort of explaining. You know,

[00:36:44.54] spk_4:
you have numbers in your mind when you’re talking to a donor, Basically sort of justifying the number and explaining why someone’s gift is important. and, you know,

[00:36:52.77] spk_1:
the end of the

[00:36:57.51] spk_4:
day when you’re raising money, it always comes down to a small number of people who are really bringing in. We’re giving the past majority the money. Whether you’re talking about ah, small campaign or very, very large campaign, it always comes down to a small number of people. And by context, I like to sort of convey that to donors and sort of let them know you’re in a small group of people that were going to help bring about real change, to save and change lives. There aren’t that many people out there, you know. You are one of a few, so

[00:37:18.99] spk_1:
that’s sort of the context. There’s

[00:37:44.84] spk_2:
actually some empirical research I was just reading, like within the past two months or so. Um, a report about someone had done some experimentation around different types of materials. What one printed said, You know, all together we can prevent hunger in the community or something. And the other was, You can be a change maker. You and so is the global or their full community versus targeting the individual. And that individual marketing piece did much better,

[00:37:51.38] spk_1:
right? I’m just saying you

[00:37:53.12] spk_2:
are the change maker. You’re this. You’re the you’re the pivot. You’re the critical link in this right in this problem in our community. You the solo. Yeah,

[00:38:00.89] spk_4:
that’s great. That’s

[00:38:02.26] spk_1:
so that’s so that’s the contact, The context

[00:38:06.79] spk_4:
based just sort of really just explaining how important someone is. Thio Urgency, then the difference that they can make and why. So

[00:38:13.37] spk_1:
that’s that. That was hugely

[00:38:15.11] spk_4:
helpful me and having those giving conversations so don’t like setting the table

[00:38:22.91] spk_1:
urgency. Urgency is, um, you know,

[00:38:39.31] spk_4:
just putting parameters so that so that there’s a reason to have a conversation at a certain time. Like capital campaigns are all about urgency. Oftentimes, it’s a very arbitrary timetable, but it gives you license to talk about giving at a certain time because there’s a deadline. You know, political campaigns. It’s more finite. It really is. You know, there’s Election Day,

[00:38:44.30] spk_1:
but other campaigns,

[00:38:57.71] spk_4:
often times it’s just sort of a random period of time, but it it’s a great tool. It helps gift officers. It helps fund raisers sort of justify why you’re having a conversation at a certain period of time. So it’s an instrument to help move conversations along.

[00:39:00.72] spk_1:
How do you deal

[00:39:08.58] spk_2:
with the rejection that being rejected in music helped you? All right, helped you, Ah, achieve in fundraising. I mean, you don’t get everything that you asked for now from donors. How do you process it? What are you thinking about? Help. People who are struggling with this.

[00:39:19.19] spk_1:
Here’s

[00:39:19.64] spk_4:
how I feel about that.

[00:39:21.72] spk_1:
There are

[00:39:39.67] spk_4:
many times when I come out of the visit or situation, or maybe after a follow up, and the gift doesn’t come through. But I still feel 10 feet tall. And it’s because I feel as though I did the right thing. You know, I feel like I asked for a gift that made sense. It was well received. You know, Maybe a doctor will say That’s the right number to ask for or I appreciate you coming to me. But now is not the right time or this isn’t the right project, but it’s very amicable. And it’s not a negative experience for for anybody. Yeah, you know, there’ve been plenty of times when I didn’t get the gift, but I feel good. I feel like I was brave and I had the conversation that need to be had, and it was the right one. But for whatever reason, to just wasn’t the right timing for

[00:40:00.31] spk_1:
the donor. Yeah, for the donor. Exactly. And oftentimes

[00:40:03.83] spk_4:
no, is Just know now. Yeah. No. For

[00:40:24.41] spk_2:
06 knows you’re halfway to ah six knows you’re halfway to her. Yes, I would like to say, um, what about when you walk out? You’re not feeling so good. Like, maybe I let the institution down, right? I didn’t know there was an opening, and I didn’t seize it. You walk out regretful. How do you process that? And then, you know, carry on because a couple days later, you’re gonna have another donor meeting.

[00:40:27.31] spk_4:
I do beat myself up about it. I As I get older, I feel like I’m still the infancy of my career. I’m gonna be learning to the day I retire, which hopefully will be decades from now. Um, and I’m trying to beat myself up less about it, but basically, I just try to learn from every experience. I literally will write down how something went. What I think I could have done differently. I’ll talk to my mentors. I still have my coaches, and I just try to learn from every experience. And most importantly, I hope that the relationship is preserved. I didn’t do any damage. And generally don’t. That’s key. The

[00:40:54.42] spk_1:
relationship is over absolutely long. Can always go back. It’s a long term relationship. Yeah, it’s long term

[00:41:02.79] spk_4:
based on trust. And absolutely. And it’s about the institution. Yeah,

[00:41:36.35] spk_2:
about the institution. Excellent. Let’s take a little break. It’s time for our last break. Ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they worked to build relationships with journalists. Who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do that. Their former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage there at turn hyphen to dot ceo. We’ve got butt loads more time for music to major gif ts. All right, Mitch, I

[00:41:40.95] spk_1:
almost called you much clinker beauty that it’s been known to happen. Yeah, sorry. Okay, I admit

[00:41:45.30] spk_2:
it. I mean, I applied myself for, ah, being being honest enough to say it. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Uh, small victories. Er you’re important to me. I amuse myself. If no one else. I amuse

[00:42:07.00] spk_1:
myself and the family is all right. Well, if you’re not, I still am. So And that’s what this is. The center of the universe is me. So, um, let’s see where we are. Okay? So, uh, you’re the the institution.

[00:42:08.89] spk_2:
Yes. You’re I mean, you’re sort of keeping in mind that it’s the institution that you’re asking for. Does

[00:42:14.69] spk_1:
that help you in de personalizing this whole process?

[00:42:18.89] spk_4:
Exactly. And I was going to say that Thank you for saying that because that’s something that I’ve learned. And I talk about this in the book with music. It was personal. When I was rejected, they were saying,

[00:42:27.83] spk_1:
We don’t like your in order that you’re I don’t like your voice. Go as your art. You’re right. We’re just that your art.

[00:43:00.19] spk_4:
It’s not about me. When fund, it’s not about the solicitor. It’s about the mission of the organization. And that’s how you can remove yourself too. And you just want to do the best thing on behalf of that organization because its mission driven you’re tryingto again safe and change lives. And so, you know, I lament of something doesn’t necessarily go well because I do, to an extent, feel so I’d like the organization down and hopefully to better in the future. But it’s not about you. It’s not about being a great fundraiser or having the magic words to say, you know, your career. It’s about the lives that your impact,

[00:43:17.59] spk_2:
you do have to keep going out. You know, you’re gonna have to get over the rejection and put on a brave face for the next meeting with the next donor a couple days later and for your next meeting with that donor that you feel like you didn’t do so well with. You’ve got to keep getting out. You got it. Builds your experience

[00:43:25.38] spk_4:
Absolutely. The more you’re out there, exactly the thicker skin you’ll get and the more experiences you have. Yeah, every experience you have, it’s like, Okay, that will never happen that exact same way again because I will learn from that moment. So there’s no it’s

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
not. And this is a

[00:43:53.15] spk_4:
funny thing. I talk about the book. It’s like experience, but also being reflective and having people who are training you because I spend a lot of time out in the road and I wasn’t making progress because I was making the same mistakes again. And I didn’t have the tools to get beyond those mistakes. So it’s a combination of that experience and then really working at it. And I again I feel like I’m just starting. Um, I learned every day.

[00:44:00.55] spk_2:
How long have you been a major gift fundraiser

[00:44:03.29] spk_4:
I’ve basically been doing. I’ve been in major gifts

[00:44:06.97] spk_1:
over

[00:44:07.27] spk_4:
10 years now,

[00:44:12.56] spk_1:
but, I mean, I started in research, or I’ve been Yeah, I know, but I mean, Frontline fundraiser. Yeah, about a

[00:44:18.74] spk_4:
decade. 11 years, right? Yeah. 10 12 years. Yeah.

[00:44:19.71] spk_1:
You have a love hate relationship with travel. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:44:23.57] spk_4:
I and II romanticize it. I do enjoy travel, but it is. You

[00:44:29.01] spk_2:
romanticize it leading up

[00:44:30.07] spk_1:
to the trip. Yeah, right. It’s gonna be cool. Getaway hotel quiet.

[00:44:34.98] spk_2:
And then you’re on the trip. Not so much.

[00:44:37.02] spk_1:
Well, it’s just it’s

[00:44:52.61] spk_4:
a lot of work is a lot of work. A lot of things can go wrong, especially when you’re trying, uh, beyond dealing with the travel. Just navigating all these visits and meetings may change. It’s exhausting, but I feel like a conquering hero when I come back from a trip, you know, having been through. It’s very I think it’s a powerful experience and it’s

[00:44:55.09] spk_1:
so great

[00:45:06.25] spk_4:
when you have a trip and you get to see a lot of different people because this is a point I want to get to that. It’s the best job in the world, and one of the reasons for that is you meet so many interesting people you would never meet otherwise successful people, people who are doing great things in the world, people who’ve had extraordinary experiences, and you’re given this opportunity to talk with him. And, you know, if you go on a trip and you’re on the road for a week and you have 10 or 15 meetings, my God, what an incredible opportunity to to see the world through the eyes of these people who have done extraordinary things. It’s incredible the people I’ve met who I would never have met otherwise.

[00:46:04.94] spk_2:
You only travel tips for a long trip. Not just like a couple two or three nighter, but suppose you’re out for 10 nights. Ah, years ago, we used to have ah, what the heck to be called that Tony’s no style tips tony travel tips. Hard to believe it would be an alliteration, but Tony’s travel tips travel doesn’t fit. It’s not teacher know. So, anyway, we had started there years ago. I just used to plead with the regular contributors to give me a style tip or something. I were my formative years. Still trying master this podcasting still am, uh,

[00:46:05.39] spk_1:
travel tips for people on the road for, ah, you know, a week or more. Well, it’s funny. I actually I was gonna put this

[00:46:16.88] spk_4:
in the book, and I didn’t. So there’s, um there is more material out there. I wrote sort of things basically travel tips.

[00:46:20.78] spk_1:
All right, There’s gonna be a Volume two sequel, so I have many,

[00:46:21.83] spk_4:
many things. A lot of it is a really

[00:46:23.64] spk_1:
good one thing I’ll say for fundraising. Non

[00:46:25.80] spk_2:
non profit radio listeners

[00:46:26.68] spk_4:
always have backup meeting set because you’re gonna have cancellations, things you’re gonna move around. So that’s something I’ve learned. I would just be crestfallen when I’d have a triple set and then one by one, meetings with Lord that I find myself in a Starbucks just depressed. You know,

[00:46:39.28] spk_1:
you’re on the institutions nickel to exactly what am I doing in San Francisco? Backup trips back up visits, visits is key. What are

[00:46:53.78] spk_4:
some other good tips that I have? Do you have

[00:46:58.18] spk_1:
any, right? Well, yes. When, um you do? That’s what I like to do. Is a

[00:47:05.68] spk_2:
sort of, I guess, these air backup. Um, I’m in town. Then I call people who have always said no. You know, I don’t want you to come just to visit me. Yeah, I get that. So, actually, sometimes I would go just to visit them, and then I would build a trip around them. But

[00:47:16.66] spk_1:
I’d say, you know, I’m gonna be in town to see somebody else

[00:47:42.64] spk_2:
in a couple days or depending on the person. I’m not even spring it on them like the night before or day before because a lot of people plan giving and giving consulting, right? Mostly retired, you know? Now they do Have, you know, if you get him out of there without a doctor’s appointment 10. AM That wipes out the whole day. Sure. Now I have a doctor. Appointment 10. Now. Four o’clock. Didn’t know dinner. Now I won’t be. I’ll do that. I have a doctor appointment. 10 o’clock. I can’t make the dinner so you run that risk. But, you know, if you’re in town for another couple days, you can still say no. So people don’t like to know that you came for them. Yes, there are. There’s a cadre of people who like to visit you. We’ll take the visit yet as long as they don’t feel that you’re there. The reason you came?

[00:47:57.53] spk_4:
Yes. Absolutely. And as, uh, related to that, I’ve found that sometimes it is. Usually they’re easier to get the meeting on very short notice. You know, you plan these things far in advance, but there’s a real magic. Sometimes I think I’m gonna be around tomorrow. You know, just so happens I’m in town. Someone looks at their schedule. They have an opening. Sure. You know, it’s not something that you would. You wouldn’t plan a trip

[00:48:22.87] spk_1:
that way. He wouldn’t, but But there is. You have some Anker visits, you know, pretty solid

[00:48:24.74] spk_2:
ones. You know, we’re not gonna very unlikely to bail, and then you

[00:48:28.06] spk_1:
can build the other ones around. Yeah,

[00:48:31.60] spk_4:
and sometimes a short notice actually is convenient for Bianca and works out.

[00:48:40.44] spk_2:
Um, just remind listeners, of course, that the name of the book is no one dreams of being a fundraiser at Barnes and Noble. It’s an Amazon. Find book. Retailers near you. Well,

[00:48:45.33] spk_1:
you know, live listeners. You could check it out right now. Go to Barnes. I happen to

[00:49:11.07] spk_2:
like Barnes and Noble. Okay, um, check it out while. Well, uh, while I continue the chat with the while, we continue the chat with with Mitch channeling you, channeling you trying to think, What would you do with that person? Asked Course. I don’t know who the person is, but amusing myself. Um, opening yourself up to donors, you talk about some donors, you’ll share your music past with something long. But the

[00:49:11.78] spk_1:
personal connection means a lot, right? Yeah, it does. It does, um, to an extent, because generally my philosophy is I mean, you need that

[00:49:58.81] spk_4:
personal connection because you want trust, and you want a real genuine report. But at the end of the day, it’s about the donor. And that’s something that I’ve learned is that generally I find that if I’m talking too much on a meeting, it’s probably not going that well because they’re not opening up. I’m not learning from them. Right So it’s like you need that human connection in that, hopefully a long term relationship. But it’s it’s it’s about their experiences, as I say in the book there. Ah ha. Moments. You know how they really feel about the organization kind of getting to that understanding and then that that their emotional connection to the mission of the organization you’re representing, that’s what it’s all about. So it’s both.

[00:50:00.59] spk_2:
Yeah, I’d love to end there, but we have another minute together,

[00:50:16.05] spk_1:
okay? Something I want to say. OK, say it in a minute. In a minute. Yeah, okay, from now, four minutes for a minute. I’m just not that smart When I was going to say

[00:50:22.92] spk_4:
was getting back to it when I was saying earlier that I looked in major gift officers like they were another species of human. If

[00:50:23.12] spk_1:
there’s anyone out

[00:50:49.49] spk_4:
there who’s thinking about the fields working as a gift officer, I just I see myself in part of the reason why I wrote The book is to be a champion for the field because I think it’s the best job in the world again, as I was saying, and it’s so powerful to be able to help make a difference for a cause and to meet wonderful people. And it’s, I feel very grateful that I stumbled upon this, and even if you think you couldn’t do it, you should still try it. If there’s an

[00:50:50.96] spk_1:
inkling

[00:50:51.42] spk_4:
of the suspicion you might want to do it, give it a try. Pursuant. Dip your toe into it. Maybe ask someone you work with to take you on a visit and experiment. And you might surprise yourself because I never would have thought 1,000,000 years. I’d want to do this. Now I feel like I’ve found my calling.

[00:51:07.92] spk_2:
That’s a great place to wrap it up. Great. Thank you so much. Miss Linker, professional fundraiser in education and author of No one Dreams of Being a Fundraiser. My unexpected journey from music to major gifts. Thank you again.

[00:51:16.38] spk_4:
Thank you very much.

[00:51:18.16] spk_2:
Next week, I promise I’ll talk less if

[00:51:21.22] spk_1:
you missed any part of today’s

[00:51:22.46] spk_2:
show, I beseech you. Find it on tony-martignetti dot com were

[00:51:26.58] spk_1:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond

[00:51:29.34] spk_2:
the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But

[00:51:32.10] spk_1:
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[00:51:52.32] spk_2:
software. The Nolly Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. They’re your story is their mission. Turn life into dot CEO. A

[00:52:49.06] spk_1:
creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Family. Woods is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein here with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day. Do you

[00:52:49.45] spk_6:
run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, the entrepreneurial Web tune in every Friday at noon Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. Right here on Fridays at noon, talk radio dot N.Y.C.,

[00:53:18.48] spk_2:
aptly named host of tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% fundraising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget. You have a home at tony-martignetti non profit radio Fridays 1 to 2, Eastern at talking alternative dot com

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Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com

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Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s 12 noon on talk radio dot N.Y.C..

[00:54:55.74] spk_5:
You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alt dot com. Now broadcasting 24 hours a day. Do

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you love, or are you intrigued about New York City and its neighborhoods? I’m Jeff Goodman, host of Rediscovering New York Weekly showed that showcases New York’s history, and it’s extraordinary neighborhoods. Every Tuesday live at 7 p.m. We focus on a particular neighborhood and explore its history. It’s vibe. It’s field and its energy tune in live every Tuesday at 7 p.m. On talk radio Die N.Y.C.

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Nonprofit Radio for November 1, 2019: This Could Be Our Future

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My Guest:

Yancey Strickler: This Could Be Our Future
Yancey Strickler is co-founder of Kickstarter and he’s written a book that’s a manifesto for a more generous world. We’ll talk about his vision for the hour.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Uncle Sir Chi Assis. If you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show, this could be our future. Yancey Strickler is co founder of KICKSTARTER, and he’s written a manifesto for a more generous world. We’ll talk about it for the hour on Tony’s Take Two Looking for Innovators were sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software. The Notley fundez They’re Complete Accounting Solution Made for non-profits Tony dahna a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen too DOT CEO. I’m pleased to welcome to the show, and the show is in a different location today. Altum playing that in a second. Yancey Strickler. He’s a writer and entrepreneur, is the cofounder of Kickstarter and author of the book This Could Be Our Future, a manifesto for a more generous world. He’s been recognized as a young global leader by the World Economic Forum and one of Fast Cos most creative people. He’s spoken at Sundance TriBeCa Film Festival. Lots of other places you will know he’s at, Why Strickler and why? Strickler dot com and Nancy. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Tony. It’s a real pleasure to have you. Um, I’m I’m a little intimidated talking to somebody Wrote a manifesto. You know, you could just name your book whatever you want. Just to be clear, there wasn’t the manifesto committee that approved it. I know it. Sze very worldly. Yes, it’s very It’s very big idea. So it’s a little intimidating, but nonetheless, I mean, I had I had to swallow hard as well before bilich being willing to own manifesto being in the title of the book. But I did, Yeah, I mean, that was a That’s a terrifying thing to do, but I I lacked a better word. You know, I wasn’t sure really. What else to say It waas because it’s not a It’s not a legal case. It’s not an emotional case. It’s sort of a mix of feelings of, you know, interpretation of the world and some new ideas like that. Well, I appreciate you think that’s a difficulty with So we are on East 76th Street. It’s a Sunday afternoon, Nancy, Uh, wasn’t ableto come when we had scheduled because of illness, and I didn’t want to lose me getting him. The book is coming out in just a matter of a couple of days. Right? November 1st October 3 night. Okay, we’re just a couple days before that. Um, I didn’t want to miss the opportunity. So we’re, uh we’re at a friend’s apartment on East 76th Street on 29th floor overlooking the Hudson River. The FDR It’s the East River. Absolutely. The East River east. 76 Thank you very much. The East River FDR, Um, why would you want to see it? It’s great. It’s It’s a cloudy, overcast day, but still beautiful. Still mean. I love the beach, but I can appreciate concrete on drivers as well. All right, so because it’s a Sunday, we’re doing this unorthodox. Not your average studio experience. So it’s a Sunday so dense and I relaxing. So we’ve got some cheese, got little organic toasts, and we have a bottle of wine And while I open the bottle of sauvignon blanc, I’m gonna ask you, Yancey, tell us about your days of kick starting. The book’s not about kickstarting record spending a lot of time, but you, you, you you talk about it. You know, you talk about some fear, some self doubt, thousands of people relying on you for their projects. Employees counting on you. What were those days like? I don’t start beginning. Start in the middle, but yeah. I mean, what’s it like to do a project like, be a pioneer in something like Kickstarter? Um, you know, Kick kick Starter was in kind of an accidental journey a bit, you know, it’s like for the three of us. He started it. There wasn’t a desire to be entrepreneurial. It was just really being compelled by my co founder, Perry Chins. Brilliant idea for crowdfunding and realizing that executing that idea meant starting a company and all kinds of things that I’ve never thought about before in my life. But yeah, I mean, what the beauty of that is that it let us create kickstarter in a way that fit our image of what we thought a company should be and what it meant. Thio build a product in the service that was very communal oriented and that lead to things like becoming a public benefit corporation and variety of choices that we made in how we structured the company you committed early on, never to sell it, never to take it public. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the idea was just the idea was, just do what’s best for Kickstarter rather than what’s best for us. And you know that that’s those early days. I think that’s what it was mattered. Yeah, but I you know, I write in the book about the challenges I felt as a as a leader. You know, I was the CEO of Kickstarter from 2014 to be into 2017 and, you know, it was a phenomenal experience. Be a very, very challenging one. Like when you’re when you’re the one sitting in the chair, you’re like, never not worried. You’re never not having existential nightmares, you know, it’s just it’s always there for you on. That’s part of being a leader is you have to have to get comfortable with that. I eventually learned to just like I have to make friends with the anxiety I’m always carrying because this is the anxiety carries a leader is a challenge. It’s also helpful to you. You know, you’re probably not wrong about the things you’re worried about. Maybe you’re worried in a more extreme way than reality. But, you know, you have to listen. Listen to that sixth sense that you have, because it’s especially the founder of the head of it. You know, if you started your organization like you’re the one that’s really gonna know what’s what’s right or wrong, like in a deeper level. And then you even had a fear of maybe not worrying about some of the right things. Yeah, like there’s things out there that are not focused on. Yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, no one put it better than Donald Rumsfeld. Bless his heart. But the idea being known knowns and then unknown, unknown And that was always my concern were the unknown unknowns. What air? What are the things coming that are just not even on my radar is a leader, and, um, yeah, that, you know, you could waste a lot of energy on that, but also it’s kind of every organization needs someone worrying that way, because if you’re only thinking about what’s right in front of you, you’re you’re gonna get shocked by something at some point along the line. So it’s one of those things where you like you have 99 straight days of existential dread that is like all the waist and then the 100th day, You’re like, Well, I’m gonna not gonna worry about anything today And then that’s that. That’s that happens. That’s that’s always your fear is a leader, and, um and you know, it makes me that experience. It just really makes me respect leaders and feel like we, you know, leaders get a lot of rewards. A lot of financial rewards for CEOs, things like that. Those people are lionized and are idolized in the press. But there’s another way in which I think leaders still don’t quite get enough respect for what it is you take on, especially like mid level leaders, just leaders at every every level. Like we, the world really relies on sound leadership and people who have that, you know, I kind of have it that like burning feeling in their stomach that, like they have something to give. Like they you just feel compelled to serve others like we desperately need those people. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for coming again. And at the same time, you have people telling you that what you’ve created is, uh, is illegitimate that they want the financial upside of people funding projects are gonna want the financial upside those projects, they’re not gonna do it for altruistic reasons. Yeah, so and you’ve got a little first we first started and we were telling people like there’s gonna be this web site where people propose ideas to make movies and things like that, and fans are going to support them. And then the potential investors we would need would say, Oh, great. So and then the fans, like, get a cut of the box office receipts. You know, like that’s that’s not the idea. The idea is you, like, get a copy the movie first, or you get your name in the credits, you get something else. But we were trying to, you know, replace or create an alternative to, ah, model that’s already based on putting money into projects For reasons of getting a financial return. There’s there’s a lot of negative feedback. And you you need to see the vision and persevere beyond. Yeah. I mean, as an entrepreneur. Yeah, you have. You have to. You have to believe, you know, you have, like, Peter Thiel has the great line about, like, what do you believe in that no one else believes. So you have to have those kinds of things, you know? You also have to have the moment where you’re willing to let something go be like, Well, maybe I am wrong about this, and it’s hard to know where that where that line is. That’s That’s tricky for all of us. But you do need that, too. I gotta stop us for sex because I gotta take care of our sponsors. Sure, And this one is for Wagner. CPS. They’ve got a free wagon are on November 13th. Sexual harassment learned to identify it, which it’s not always clear what harassment is in the workplace. That alone is worth Well, this is free. But that alone is worth worth, learning also what the law requires you to do as an employer and tips for building a stronger team that works together and prevents workplace harassment. Goto koegler cps dot com Click resource is than upcoming events. Let’s go back to, uh, this could be our future. Just a little artificial, but I need to take care of anything. Cover sponsors. So sure, I’m just in transfers. You don’t worry about Don’t worry about me. I’m just enjoying the view. You enjoy the train on floor view of the Hudson River now, um, so that I want to move to the book is that’s why people are listening. And it is It’s It’s a very different way of thinking and expanding our values beyond what has what we’ve created. And you make the point that it can change. We created, we can change it. So now I’m I get the idea that you’re you’re fairly low questions, but we only have an hour, and we only have, like, another 45 minutes or so. Okay, so if I interrupt you sure I’m not rude. There are some things that people Okay, great guy. Please. Right. I’m so apologizing. Upfront. Um, remains will start with financial maximization way. It’s something we’ve created. It’s something you want. Oh, transcend. Go way beyond What’s financial maximization? Yes. The first half of the book Explorer introduces a theory that I have that the world has been overtaken by a belief that the rational choice in any decision is whichever option makes the most money and that this is the default setting that runs the world. And I call this belief financial maximization on this idea is so pervasive around us now that the right choice and a decision, it’s whichever option makes the most money that we think that it’s just always been like this. This is just the natural order of things. But in the book, I make the argument that this idea entered the bloodstream in 1970. The specific moment essay by Milton Friedman was sort of happening in a moment where there was a debate whether businesses had some social responsibility during the Vietnam War, ever all Americans were sacrificing Cos we’re not. Is that right? And an end to this debate? Freedom made this argument that the responsibility of the business is to maximize profits for shareholders, and and this is the moment where the way the world operated began to change. And there’s all sorts of different statistics and things I sight in the book to make that case, but you just gotta get the book way. Can’t ever. But we can’t cover. There’s there’s this. It’s just this belief is invisible, but it’s so deeply lodged in our society that is just answering every question for us and and it’s wrong. It’s wrong. You know that there’s certain sort of decisions where, yes, what what is the best financial dot com makes sense is how to do it if you’re making a budgeting choice or something, by all means. But we’re using it to decide education to decide the future of science that we’re using its reshaping our neighborhoods, where we live like it is. It is an idea that has surpassed human being’s capacity to do anything, and it’s really it’s overwhelming us. And Kick Start is a perfect example off the fact that this does not have to be it does not weigh the way we live in the way we make decisions. People did not get financial maximization from the projects they fund. I give examples of kickstarter of Patagonia of Chick fil A being closed on Sundays. The pop star del I give a lot of examples of people that are notable because they’re making different kinds of choices. And also these are people who are like real market leaders. And I think part of what makes those companies distinct is that they’re operating from a different set of values than their competitors, and it makes him stand out. And I feel like I feel like they they should be a sign of the future of what’s to come, you know, early on in the book. So I’m taking notes, get this page of notes and early on I wrote that. Okay, he says, financial maximization, not the only form of value that we should protect and grow. So I’m questioning. But is it the first? And by the end of the book, we’re midway through the book, I’m realizing, No, it’s not necessarily. It’s not necessarily. First, we’ll get into bento boxes in your individual value systems. But, um, I wondered early on, and I answered my own question. No financial maximization. It’s important. You said you’re not anti money. It’s just propio people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, um I mean, it’s documented that without without financial security, the life spans of companies and people are shorter, so I money is rationally important. But there is a point at which its importance starts to diminish and where and where the pursuit of on Lee financial value leads to the degradation of other values that are even more important. Yeah, you list some and and I thought of something Fairness, mastery, purpose, community knowledge, family, faith. And everybody’s got their own. This is where we get to the bento box for immediate and longer term, both for ourselves and for the for the world for society. Um, this was something your dad grew up Is a traveling waterbed salesman. Yeah, Well, how does that work? How do you travel in Sell waterbeds, brick and mortar kind of thing. Yeah, well, he’s sorry. He started in the in like, 74 it started by getting existing furniture stores to have a waterbed section. And so he went to every store in the South and would try to get them to create a waterbed showroom on would also be. And what someone would buy a waterbed from one of those stores. He would go on, install it, and he would, like, help teach that person had a care for the water bed. So the effort. 30 years My father worked as a waterbed salesman. He’s still a bed salesman in the mall. But now you know, this is like the temper Pedic era way gone from water to air in terms of weight. But, you know, as a result, I’m a strong defender of betting Salesman is my thought. My father’s knowledge is extraordinary. And when I hear like Casper ads that are trying to trash on salesman that air like No, these are My father knows a lot. My father could help you get a good night’s rest, but yeah, he’s a waterbed salesman and a country and folk musician. And so, yeah, that’s, you know, that you were a music critic. You grew up in Virginia. Yeah. I grew up on a farm in Southwest Virginia and always dreamed of being a writer and moved to New York after college and got a job reviewing records for the village voice and riding blurbs for radio stations. And, you know, I manage a hack out a living writing about music for about eight years before kickstarter happened. So I already felt like I was successful just by the fact that I I mean, my dream growing up was just to get out of where I waas. And so they come to New York was kind of It was a dream fulfilled. And then having my byline and spin magazine was a dream fulfilled. Yeah, I’ve been very fortunate that these been able to, you know, reach these things in my life. You thank your dad for exposing you to music. Yeah, Yeah, for sure. In the acknowledgements, for sure. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, in terms of just your own, um, adherence to what you’re proposing in the book that we look beyond financial maximization, I s I saw as that example kickstarter that you would agreed early on. It wouldn’t it would be for the people and for the projects. Yeah, not for your own financial maximization. Yes. And I, you know, country contrast that to what we’re seeing in the news just this past week or 10 days. We work out of Newman and we work. Um, it’s a The financial maximization is pervasive, but we can’t change it. Yeah, just imagine that we’re going to see Adam Newman’s name. Unlike the list of the 20 richest people, probably for the next 30 years. And we’re gonna have to know And, you know, I never meet each other. I’ve never met him, But just the idea that like that, Yeah, just how that happened. It’s It’s it’s gonna be very emblematic of this era. Um, yeah. I mean, you know, it’s, uh yeah, but you also say, you know, the world is not as solid as we think it is a kickstarter again. Kickstart an example you pioneered crowd crowd funding on so we can make changes. Yeah, all right. Although, um, how do we How do we start to for people in non-profits? So these are small and mid sized non-profits. Fund-raising is a critical task for probably 95% of our listeners and the other 5% of supporting fund-raising. It’s not critical to them, but it’s important. How do we start to move beyond financial maximization? Well, you know, for non-profits, I think it would be about it’s about thinking about impact on. I think maybe it’s having maybe it’s having a different sort of impact story to use to possibly raise raise more money down the line or something like that. But like, um, you know, in the in the first half of the book, I make this argument about financial maximization sort of overwhelming us. And in the second half, I argue that in the past 50 years we had once been a society ruled by values, the idea of what’s right or wrong or what’s meaningful. And then steadily, we switched to being a society run by value and value, really meaning financial value, and that there’s like many practical reasons why this makes sense like financial value is instantly calculated, like before making decisions on moral values. That’s messy. We probably believe different things. There’s a lot of translation that has to happen. And so the world switched to a focus on value and that and that’s what we’ve been stuck. That’s easy. Anything we can calculate about my total very simply and you know it’s undeniable. It’s undeniable, and you can use money to buy anything else on. You know, just the problem is that the conversion fees are hell you know on, and that’s what we’re finding. So what I do is I show like the emblem of the financial maxim Mason maximization mindset, I think, is the hockey stick. Graph a chart of your self interest, where the lines going up into the right. This is like the ultimate. You’ve made it kind of success story, and one day I was just doodling that in a notebook, and I just happened to you draw the lines for the X and Y axes of that hockey stick graph out farther because I realized that both of those extend the X axis of time goes from now all the way into the future. And the Y axis of our self interest goes from me to us. As our self interest grows, so does its. So does our responsibility for other people. And so I drew this and I ended up seeing that there were actually four different spaces that lived there, and I thought of these is all spaces of our self interest. There is now me, which is the bottom left corner of this graph. That’s where the hockey stick is. That’s what I want to need right now. There’s future me the bottom right box, and that is imagining the the grey hair version of yourself that made all the right choices you living in the obituary? You wish you could have. If it’s the gray haired version you’re looking at your future metoo. Yes, we’re talking. Yes, yes. Great Apple Brown. So you’re thinking about Yeah. What? What do I need to live up to? Their Finally, There’s also the now us the top left box. And that is about the people who rely on and who rely on you and then the top right boxes called Future us. And that is the next generation. And so there’s four distinct spaces here now me future, me now us future us. And I argue that every choice we make impacts all of these bases, all of these spaces impact us all the time. But today we operate believing that Onley that now me space of what I want and need right now. But that is the only rational space. Everything outside of that is sort of like emotional, questionable how real it is. And so we struggle to make decisions, considering the future or considering our collective needs. And this is why we’re, you know, sitting on her hands about climate change. This is why loneliness and depression are increasing because these air, not spaces we are feeding. We’re not protecting. We’re not growing value in the opioid epidemic. Yeah, these air, all this is all like, we just we just have his very limited notion of our self interest that has trapped us. And so I call this Bento is, um, like a bento box. And I call it a bent like a bento box. Because the bento the word derives from a Japanese word meaning convenience. And the bento has four distinct compartments or more, each one carrying a different kind of dish. So a bento always has a variety of dishes. It’s a balanced meal in the Bento also honors a Japanese dieting philosophy of Hotta Hachi Boo which says the goal of a meal is to be 80% full. That way, you’re still hungry for tomorrow. So Bento is, um is the same idea for our self interest, our values and even the definition of what is valuable. So in the book, I focus really on its uses, like, just like a framework of making sense of the world also has a personal values tool, a way to make self-funding decisions. And in the long term, the long term of this, I think, is that thes new bento space is being used to tow launch searches for new forms of value. Like can we define what sustainability is as a metric? Can we define the future of space value that suddenly we’re all start to optimize for alongside the now me financial value? And if if we can water down the monopoly of financial value by elevating the communal value, a sustainability value and maybe like a purpose related value alongside them Um, I think very naturally our choices will improve and will become better on. So you can’t. What I’m thinking is that you can’t We can’t rely on the world getting better by everyone getting woke or changing their values to be everyone goody, goody or something. I don’t think that’s a reasonable expectation, but can we have Ah ah, global increase of our self awareness that just permits us to see where our footprints were really being left. And I’m an optimist about human beings where I think that we do the best we can with what we know. It’s a part of my quest for this book was to think what new knowledge could we possess that would dramatically improve our ability to evolve from where we are now. And to me, it’s a new understanding of our self interests in a new understanding of value and not only individual, but you talk about toward the end. You talk about the organizational Benton? Yes. So that can also get concerned. We have value. Non-profits. Yes. Thinking again, not only lower left. Yeah, individual today organization today, but but globally and in the future for the organization. Yeah. So I you know, I’ve been leading these workshops. I’ve done four of these in my house and in l. A where I’ve been teaching people how to build their bentos. How you in each one of these bases there, there’s you can define what that is for you. What is your now me about? What is your future me about? And so I’ve done that for myself. And I’ve used that to make every major life choice for about a year. And I teach people how to do that and give them practice, using it to make decisions. And And I want to do that for organizations too. But the way I talk to people about us. I say this. This is a path to self coherence, right? Because the modern world requires us to compromise ourselves all the time. We do things we don’t want to do for money, because we have to. We think it’s like the more grown up thing to do, and in some cases, maybe it’s true. But I believe that there is an opportunity. If we really look at the whole picture that we can always create a self coherent choice that fulfills who we are that puts us at our best. That and that is like, truly benefiting the world. And not just this very narrow concept of what progresses You sight Konosuke Matsushita, his book not for bread alone. He’s the founder of Panasonic. Founder was founder of Paterson. Yeah, and he talks about some of the five spirits. Um, and if we need to look, I could get the book. Yeah, shoretz like the spirits. Yeah, I didn’t write them down, but, uh, but like you say, you say a little more about what? Yeah, You Why? You like that book? Yeah, Matsushita. He started the first electrical company in Japan. And like 1917 and he’s making lights on, uh, started for, like, bikes. He was a teenager, and, um and he just had. So he wrote that he wrote a book. He started writing books in the seventies and eighties, just reflecting on his life, and they are remarkably wise and humane. And I found this one not for bread alone, just just a collection of, like, kind of aphorisms from his career. And, um, and he’s just really someone that sees the big picture. And even in 1930 he explained, the 200 year mission of Panasonic was to was to eradicate poverty from the world. Like that was the reason why he started the company. Was he saw in his fellow Japanese citizens poverty and thought, This is the way to lift us out of this. Just reminds me of the company. Seventh Generation. Yeah, For every for every decision, we must consider the the impact seven generations. That which comes from Native American tradition, I don’t know. But the company do you know, the company said on all their packaging says we must consider the impact of the next seven generations. That’s fantastic. Yeah, Matsushita, you know, he’s a great writer and this I read this book while I was like having a lot of, you know, existential questions as a CEO, just like feeling so out of sync with the zeitgeist around me. Like that’s just preaching. Ah, hyper aggressive level of kind of leadership that I just know isn’t in me. And and I really struggle with this idea of like, Well, maybe someone like me isn’t can’t be leader. Maybe I’m the wrong person to be a leader. And then I read Matsushita’s book and I felt a kinship and felt like, Oh, here’s like, Here’s a very wise man who is yeah, speaking something that feels very true to me. You say we sort of became a mentor? Yeah, yeah, I would just tryto I would try to imagine I was him because there are all these scenes where it’s like his head of sales comes to him with this problem and, you know, and Matsushita has to, like, help him sort it out and always his answer is he finds a way to sort of like cut through the situation where he’s not. He’s not answering the surface question. He’s able to perceive what is the question underneath this and is able to answer that instead. And, yeah, I think Matsushita would love the Bento. I think Ben Tooism would be. I think he would identify with it very much. And, um, yeah. So, like, you know, the I think we all desire to hold these things in mind to think about our families were choices, But what? We’re trained. And it’s so easy to just fall back to the life of a default. Yeah, to the default. And so the idea here is Can we build a new muscle memory on dhe? Yeah. Just incorporate a new way of thinking. I gotta take a break for a second. I’m concerned I’m drinking more wine than you. So you got about a minute or so men and 1/2 actually. Thio, relax. Enjoy the view, have a little cheese and drink some wine. And this break 61% of Cougar Mountain Software’s customers stay with them for more than 16 years, which I think is terrific retention rate, and it’s no surprise the product is made for non-profits Includes built in fraud prevention, fund accounting grant and Doner management. Phenomenal support. What you’ve heard testimonials about koegler. Mountain has a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at Tony dahna may Slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’m still looking for innovators and Yancey Strickler would have been one, but he didn’t want to wait until the first quarter when I’m doing my innovator Siri’s so I don’t second week in a row, I indulge in author um, last week it was Leah Garces s. So But you don’t have to have written a book. You don’t have to have been a tech pioneer to be an innovator. I’m just looking for people who tackle problem differently. Then tradition. Conventional wisdom, you know, best practices would would suggest, and you’re being successful at. We need. We need some degree of success to. You can’t just be going off and not really showing any impact. So if you have, if you have a different way of looking at some problem that faces non-profits, then I’d like to talk to you because I’m doing this innovator Siri’s first quarter of 2020. You can get me through the contact page at tony martignetti dot com or just emailed Tony at 20 martignetti dot com. If you’re innovating, let’s talk and that is Tony. Stick to, um, let’s do a little live listener love. I don’t know where the live listeners are cause, like I said, you know, pre recorded. But if you’re there, if you’re listening, live to the this live stream love goes out to you whether you are checks in often Mexico City, Germany, South Korea or your New York, New York. But you get a lot of listeners from get a lot of listeners from California. North Carolina Double wear has been checking in recently. Wherever you are listening live, the love goes out to you and to the podcast audience. The pleasantries you got to the podcast pleasantries. That’s where the vast majority of our 13,000 listeners are. I don’t know. You probably bunch it all together. You may be listening Thio six or eight shows in a row. I don’t know. However you do your podcast listening. The pleasantries goes out to you go out to you because I’m grateful that you’re with us. Thanks so much for listening. Whether it’s live or podcast. Okay, can see. Let’s continue. Amen. The name of the book. I want to remind people that the book is This could be our future, a manifesto for a more generous world Like all the, uh, author’s books. Join me. You just got to get it because in an hour we can’t cover all the depth. Dancing goes into detail about some of the implications of financial maximization for entertainment. Radio movies, Broadway. You talk about Broadway? I see it on Broadway, you know, mentioned Broadway. I I see too many remakes, but he has lots of implications of financial maximization. Um, and lots of good stories like you mentioned Adele Patagonia. A lot of detail about that may well get into one of one of those. Or so you also talk about the mullet economy, which is an implication off the thes whimsical um, ideas. So I want Oh, yeah, I want to explain The bullet economy have grew out of frame maximization. Yeah, when I when I when I think about the impact of four decades now of financial maximization, the image that came to mind one day was the mullet on dhe. I trust everyone remembers the mullet. It’s the forget the height of eighties hair technology with business and front and party in the back, and and it’s got everything you need. And so where we are now is we’re living in the mall. In economy, where for 90% of people for workers, it is business in front with wage freezes, layoffs and Maur job and security than ever before. People working multiple jobs to make a living wage. And this is happening during the most profitable period in human history and the most profitable nation on earth. And right now, at this time, 43% of Americans can’t afford their bills every month. Most proper, most prosperous nation in the history of Earth, 43% percent of its citizens can’t pay their bills every month. So that’s the business in front. For the moment, the party in the back is for the top 1 to 10% um, who have just realized enormous gains over the same time. So since the 19 seventies, the average worker compensation America has grown by about 9% in about 50 years, 9% on the average. Compensation for an executive has increased by 1000% over that same time, and these things are related. The growth of income for the top has come from stopping the income gains for those on the bottom. And it works out because 90% of people are the ones not getting those 5% pay raises anymore. If you take that for 90% of population instead, put that money in the pockets of the top 1%. It adds up very, very quickly. So this has been the explicit model for, um, for the brand of capitalism we’ve had over the last 40 or 50 years. And so now we have this enormous mullet, enormous moment of people on top, being extraordinarily wealthy and again a time of incredible prosperity. And most people are are not participating in it. And, um, yeah, it’s it’s, it’s it’s a It’s a colorful way. Do I think, to illustrate what is I mean when I really think about it? I mean, I feel almost ashamed. You know, I feel I feel a sense of like I can’t believe we’re doing this. I can’t believe that we are operating like this is this is okay, like this makes sense. This is not unique to the United States. I think it’s fair. I think it’s I think the U. S is by far way have a larger well, you know, I don’t even know your wealth. Divide them, rise more highest in the world. Yeah, that’s measured through something called the Jenny Coefficient, which is like the degree of difference between average and common. High incomes of the U. S. Is one of the biggest there. I mean, the difference between, say, the U. S. And like a European country is a European country has higher taxes on people who make more money on those higher taxes are used to provide health care and other basic services that we don’t have in the States. So they’re they’re balancing it out not by redistributing wealth, but by using that well to provide the basic necessities of life so that people don’t have to worry about those things. But so in the US, for the 43% of people who can’t afford their bills each month, the things they can’t afford are those same basic safety net. And so you know, So instead, everyone has to pay for those things out of pocket. Um, but they’re doing that while getting paid. You know, like pay has increased 9% and the cost of college is in three years in 50 and 50 years. And during that same time, the cost of college is increased by 19 x Right? Healthcare’s increased by way more than that. And so wages stay down the costs. Stay up. It’s especially this especially screws over college grads, because the cost of university keeps going up and up. But pay is not going into that tell you have almost 50% of student loans now. And for parents in the U. S. Like billions of dollars because people can’t pay, people can’t pay because the jobs don’t pay enough to pay back. You know what it costs to earn the right to get that job. And this is all the mullet, just playing itself out in all kinds of different ways. I want to share some of the encouragement that that you provide in the book, which is which is a good deal of it. Um you say, um treyz, which would I prefer more what we talked about. The fragility of things, how things can change will be on that, uh, you say a good idea. Well, crafted and pursued with passion doesn’t need a gatekeepers stamp of approval to succeed. Yeah, okay, that I believe that came from your kickstarter sort of kickstarter manifesto. And the day after day after we launched, I wrote a book I wrote a blogger posted about hoexter, but goes way beyond that. I mean, we can transcend financial maximization. We can, you know, we can encourage people toe, have their own grow their own ideas don’t need you don’t need a gatekeeper. Well, you’ll be part of part of what You know. I mean, I grew up in a, you know, rural community. I read books all the time, you know, loved school, and I just believe that, like, there was just some committee that was deciding everything on our behalf and one and felt comfort in that idea. And then when kickstarter happened as it was growing, I kept waiting for like, where? Where? Where? Those people that, like, give us approval for this to be happening. And it just dahna me that there’s nothing that, like what What we choose to believe in is like it there. There are no authority figures, and that initially really frightened me it frightens me to think that wow, just us three people can dramatically reorient. How things were working like that makes me terrifies is honestly my first reaction. And then that brought with it a new level of just a different way of seeing the world. And seeing things is being more fragile than I thought. And and the book is trying to put that same feeling and people this notion that a lot of what we are going along with it, it just keeps happening because we’re going along with it. And the day we stop things change like that. Our individual actions actually do have impact. And they have impact not just on now, but the evident backed also in the generation that follows. One of things I talk about in the book is there’s a a survey done by U. C. L. A. Every year since the 19 sixties in college freshman incoming freshmen, about like their goals in life and in 1970 the number one life goal for incoming college freshman in America was to develop a meaningful philosophy of life. 85% of students said that was essential. There’s one of the option that’s about being rich in that year was about 30% of students, that it was essential to be rich. Okay, this is 1917 1970 today, 2017. The last time this study was done, 82% of students said that being rich was essential. And so and it was like 40% say having a philosophy of life is a central. And in 1970 people were looking for their philosophy in life. In 2017 they know what it is. It’s to be rich and this change incrementally year by year. And that and that changed by people’s personal beliefs changing and those things just having these multiplying effects when they get played out across a society. She’s just yesterday on the subway, I was talking to a boy was like 10 years old, sitting next to me on he was he was obviously singing, and but they didn’t have any year budget. He was just sitting on his own, and my friend asked him, You know, what do you talking? What would you like to do and where you wanna be and how come you love singing? And he said, I want to be a big YouTube singer. Yeah, you know, it’s just he must be rich and have tens of millions of views on YouTube. He was, like, years old. Sure, Yeah. No, that’s That’s the world. That’s a word. That’s the world he’s born into. Yeah, right. You know, I mean, we’re all we’re all captives of this, so But I don’t I don’t think that we have to be stuck here. You know, I think the moment, the moment that we believe that this is unchangeable is like, is, uh, you know, that’s kind of what we come to believe part. Part of my inspiration for writing this book was not feeling like I was seeing the where the people trying to optimistically imagine the evolutionary path for our species from here, How can we keep growing and evolving in a way that sustains our way of life, sustains social connections, all these sorts of things and because I think our current path is not going to result in on dso you know, just trying to imagine what could what could be done? What? What is possible. And this has led me to be super optimistic. I mean, I write about how exercise is like a modern idea. We think of exercises. It’s like it’s been here forever. We all wish we could exercise more, right. But in 1968 the segregationist Senator Strom Thurman was arrested for running outside in South Carolina because someone jogging was so weird in the 19 sixties that someone be arrested. They assumed they were fleeing the scene of a crime, and that was how unusual exercise was and those of the 19 sixties. Right in 1992 America had its first exercising president. You know, not that Kennedy was like an athletic person, but it wasn’t exercise as a personal habit. Exercise had to be invented because television was invented. And so we are still actually early on in the life of exercise as a hobby, and it’s still something that’s growing. But we just quickly become so used to it. So I think that there is. I talk a lot about these 30 year increments of time that a generation, a 30 year, a 30 year stretch of time. I think anything is changeable. Anything is changeable. If you have a plan, just the laws of calm, pounding interest show us how a small idea just growing, how it can accelerate and how that last moment, where it tips over and takes over the world kapin so quickly, like hip hop, took 30 years to go from. Not existing, too dominating the world. It took 30 years to create the Internet. It took 30 years for the antiseptic method and safe surgery to happen. Like I write about many examples of these things you use, I gotta take a last break. But you use use. Have a great party analogy. Let me just take this 32nd break and I want you to share your party analogy. This break is four Turned to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your mission. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO, and we have got butt loads. More time for this could be our future. And Nancy Strickler tell that good, cool party analogy in terms of the 30 years Yeah, generation, I encourage us to think about society is a party that’s just keeps going. And, um, we every day new people enter the party by being born, and you start off by your sort of taught the ropes. You’re kind of a wallflower that’s like ages 0 to 30. You’re kind of learning how the party works from the ages of 30 to 60 you’re in charge of the party. You’re choosing what food gets served. Your it’s your music. You dominate the dance floor. And then, by the age of about 60 you go into another room. Thio. Quiet, quiet, little conversation. Let’s sit. Let’s sit here. And then after that, people disappear from the party. But the way the party keeps going is that there is a constant transition off who is leading it. Yeah, the way that people think about the party is determined by what it’s like when they first get there. What kind of music is playing when you get to the party that tells you what the party is like? And so society is this constantly evolving party. It never stops, were constantly handing off from one baton to the other generations, this sort of evolutionary process of society and, um and so this I think this metaphor also shows how it is. These things can change, like how the decisions that one group makes while being in charge of the dance floor on the sorts of rules they create, how that affects people just entering the party and how that adjust what everyone thinks. Normal ISS. And so, you know, to think about someone who’s born was raised after the iPhone exists, which is only 2008 like they have a very different notion of normal ass. Someone like me who was born in the 19 seventies, who saw I saw the phone enter the party like I experienced. That is a new thing, right? And so there’s this way that, yeah, that we’re just sort of were passengers on this ride and it’s happening around us. But we also have, ah, riel influence on it, that that’s kind of hard, hard to perceive. But this gradual process of how things work is actually a really wonderful thing. It lets it’s what let’s certain ways of life preserve and stay around, and and it illustrates how it is. The world evolves. Yeah, and, uh, yeah, it’s a metaphor, not analogy. Thank you subtly corrected. I do that sometimes. Um, so we have, like, a about another 10 minutes or so left. What? What haven’t we talked about Book waas, Um, that you’d like to? Well, I guess, you know, I guess it’s really a lot of what the book builds to is this is this idea. Ventoux is, um, and trying Thio, usher in this new way of seeing self interest a new way of perceiving our footprint. And, um and so I I see the first step of vandalism as being people. Just learning this individually on dhe getting into it and write your bento I got right your banjo. You’ve made one here. Did did. There’s gonna be there’s gonna be a website that will go up this week, ben tooism dot warg which will be a which will guide you through the process of building a bento Be a path of self coherence to finding your values to doing that. You just answer a question of what I want to need right now. What is future me want to need And so you sort of guide through this. I think this should also happen for organizations organizations should sort of affirm their commitments and who their constituents are and how they want to impact all the spaces where they operate. And then you the book ends with, like, this sort of SciFi future of 2020 50 a man, because the book is sort of built around this notion of where we should be in 25th already 57. I suppose we could accelerate to 2040. Yeah, yeah, we can see more change there might be linked to 100. That’s future made by the way and healthful Living 200 yet. But I think I think I think in, You know, I write about 2050 30 years from now, Ben Tooism being like a real thing, that companies expand their their scope of their self interest to include not just financial values but non financial values, and that there is an organization that I imagine is a non-profit called the Bento Society that is sort of giving grants and guiding the research into new, rational values. It is trying to solve this question of how do we define how do we define sustainability? And I think the way you do that is by trying to look inside the hood of his many organizations as possible to see how they’re answering these questions and trying to find through that. What are those sort of like universal? What is universal properties that we can identify? If we look at enough examples of this and through that, maybe we can define an equation that produces, like, a metric, you know, in the same way that safer the climate crisis, we have the metric of CO two parts per 1,000,000 the atmosphere is like the way to track things. But how can that be something that we’re all aware of and that all of our is incorporated into all of our decisions? And and so I see the the long range that the long term path adventurism is being justifying the research into new forms of value, creating a framework where these things make sense and and in that I believe evolving capitalism into something else, I think, almost like a post economic kind of model where, um, the money remains important. But we see money as a fuel towards the creation of hyre values. Money is not the point on its own like that, what we’re doing right now is we’re climbing like the second rung of the ladder of Maslow’s hierarchy were achieving security. And we’re celebrating like we’re on the peak of Everest and really were, like, barely climbing. We’re barely climbing and we think we’re there. So can we raise up? Can we raise our bar? Can we raise our sights and subsumed in In all this really is, I think of empowerment. Yeah, we are each capable of changing ourselves, being introspective, seeing a different path and taking that path and then institution you say, you know, incrementally, it becomes, becomes cluster of friends that becomes institutional. And then it’s communal. And it’s xero How nation, you know, that’s how organic food happened was exactly that same way, like they’re they’re adding that exam that is a model that is a that is a replicable model for change. And, you know, it just requires people to commit. It requires, you know, me making arguments that that reach people on that build this community. I mean, I my hope for this book is it’s like the It’s the first brick and a new kind of institutional way of thinking. You know, I there’s a follow-up book to this. I think more about Ben Tooism, but I feel like there are ways this idea needs to be conjugated and evolved that my brain is not equipped to do. But maybe listen to this podcast. Maybe they maybe they have a mind that can really take some of these ideas much farther than I could ever imagine. And you know what I’ve seen with kickstarter like that? Like real success is when things outgrow you and outrun you on dhe when other people are teaching you about the thing you made. And that’s already happening with Ben Tooism for me. Like I’ve done these workshops, there are now probably 60 practicing bento us in the world, right? And they and they write me and they write me with questions saying, Hey, I face this choice to my dentist said I should do it too, said I didn’t like, How would you encourage me to think through this? And he’s using it in their daily lives? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know, I try to provide some wisdom, you know, try to help them think of these things, but people are encountering things that I hadn’t considered, you know, on Dhe. So that is how that is, how ideas go from just ideas, like living, breathing things that operate independently of us. And that’s that’s what I hope, whether Ben Tooism is the literal word used, I care less about then these new spaces off future me now us future us that we can, that we can come to an agreement about the importance and rationality of those spaces and that those convey be put on the front burner rather than the back burner and that we can have really smart conversations with, like, you know, the the amount that human beings have achieved trying to grow like just through the pursuit of financial growth is incredible, like human beings are amazing. What weaken? D’oh! So what do we what can we d’oh with a different kind of target? And so that again just makes me feel so excited, so excited about our potential. And, um and you know, my feeling is that these ideas are like touching on a raw nerve that a lot of people feel and that I think a lot of people are open to some of my early readers of the book that I asked to give me feedback are like conservative economists and partners that on Wall Street and like friends who work in those worlds really financial maximize. Yeah, who I really respect. And I want them to read this and be like, Well, I disagree with you on X y Z things, but I you know, I think what you’re saying also has merit, you know? And I want I want to be credible to those people because like, those folks were super talented and need to be a part of the solution. You know, I don’t want to blame or shame anyone like we’re all on the same ride. And so, to me, it’s the ability to just expand that perspective. And, you know, again, I just have all kinds of optimism and faith about human beings, and and I really think will step up if given the chance. I see your glass is empty. Yeah, which is good with the bad. Bad with passion about homes. So let me because we’re gonna toast one more final time. I don’t know what you’re doing with an empty glass. Cheers, Years. Congratulations on the book comes out in two days. Yeah. Thank you. Congratulations. My pleasure. If someone wants to go a little further with the Bento is, um what should they do? But they should go Thio portals. They should goto either. Why? Strickler dot com They could send me a message. Or by the time this is up, ben tooism dot or ge should be a real functioning website. Okay, I’m quite excited about that. Walks you through the whole concept. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Especially for doing it on a Sunday afternoon. Yeah, is the answer Strickler? The book is This could be our future. A manifesto for a more generous world again. Why strickler dot com And at why, Strickler Next week it’s gonna be the buy-in bitches Carrie Lewis Carlton and Laura Koch getting your boss’s buy-in when you get it, and they don’t the buy-in bitches. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com Responsive by witness e p a. Is guiding you beyond the numbers record cps dot com koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits? Tony dahna may slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producer is clear. Myer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music you better be hearing it by now in postproduction. Better be on by now. This music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. 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