Category Archives: Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Nonprofit Radio for July 10, 2020: Digital Accessibility & Inclusive Design

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Laura Patch: Digital Accessibility
How to make your digital products more accessible. Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text, screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. (Part of our 20NTC coverage)

 

 

 

 

 

Nic Steenhout: Inclusive Design
Nic Steenhout says forget upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take, the point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. (Also part of our 20NTC coverage)

 

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Nonprofit Radio for July 3, 2020: Thought Leadership & Content Strategy

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Peter Panepento & Antionette Kerr: Thought Leadership
Peter Panapento and Antionette Kerr co-authored the book, “Modern Media Relations for Nonprofits.” They share their insights on how to build relationships with journalists so you get heard as the thought leader you are. Plus other media strategies, like crisis communications. (Part of our 20NTC coverage)

 

 

 

 

 

Valerie Johnson & Katie Green: Content Strategy
Now that you’re an established thought leader, you need to produce multichannel content that’s relevant, engaging, actionable, user friendly and SEO friendly. Our 20NTC coverage continues as Valerie Johnson from Pathways to Housing PA and Katie Green with The Trevor Project show you how.

 

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

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Transcript for 496_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200703.mp3

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[00:02:40.94] spk_0:
welcome to tony-martignetti non proper radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with epidermal Asus below PSA if you gave me the blistering news that you missed Today’s show Thought leadership. Peter Pan, A Pento and Antoinette Car co authored the book Modern Media Relations for Non Profits. They share their insights on how to build relationships with journalists. So you get heard as the Thought Leader you are, plus other media strategies like crisis Communications. This is part of our 20 NTC coverage. Also content strategy. Now that you’re an established thought leader, you need to produce multi channel content that’s relevant. Also engaging actionable, user friendly and S e o friendly. Our 20 NTC coverage continues as Valerie Johnson from Pathways to Housing P A and Katie Green with the Trevor Project show you how on Tony’s Take two Dismantling racism were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn to communications PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is a thought leadership. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. We were supposed to be in Baltimore. The conference was canceled, but non profit radio is persevering, virtually getting lots and lots of the very smart speakers. We’re, ah, gonna be part of the conference. We’re sponsored at NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. The Knowledge Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial with me now our Peter Pan a Pento and Antoinette car. Peter is philanthropic practice leader at Turn two Communications Internet is part of leadership team of women, Advance and CEO of Bold and bright Media. They are the co authors of the book Modern Media Relations for non Profits. Peter, Internet. Welcome.

[00:02:59.99] spk_1:
Great to be here. Virtually.

[00:03:11.74] spk_0:
Yes. I’m glad we could work this out among the three of us. Thank you. And, uh, it’s good to know that you reach well and safe in your respective locations. Okay.

[00:03:12.63] spk_1:
Thank you. Social distancing and full effect. Yes.

[00:03:42.02] spk_0:
Okay. Yes, I see no one within six feet of you. That’s good. Even though you are home. Um, we’re talking about thought leadership and media. Um let’s ah, let’s start with you. Internet. Um weaken weaken usar leverages to thought leadership and sort of ah, used the media to ah, to influence our ah influence are those who are engaged with us, our constituents, and even influence policy.

[00:04:27.40] spk_2:
So the media needs Experts and nonprofits are on the ground there doing the work. And they are the perfect votes to be experts in this conversation in particular and emergency Peter non talks about earlier about crisis communications in a lot of situations, the media scrambling looking for experts if you have establish yourself as a thought leader, which is what you should aspire to do, I know that turn to does the work and helping people to kind of establish themselves the thought leader in this conversation. But right now we need people with good information and who can provide great stories, for example. And nonprofits can do that and they can do that work. And that’s why that that leadership conversations important most non profit don’t see themselves needing to do that. It’s not the first thing we think about. We think about fundraising, right? Um, but not necessarily Media friend raising. And so now the time that you want to have those relationships and be considered as a leader,

[00:05:10.94] spk_0:
because when there’s news that relates to your mission, um, your call is more likely to be taken. Your email is more likely be answered if there’s that preexisting relationship you mentioned. But if if everybody in the sector is calling a LH the over media blindly, then it’s just sort of, ah, crapshoot whether they answer you or not.

[00:06:44.14] spk_2:
Or if you think about the media needing like, you know, going Teoh crisis example like the media needing a source or an expert and they don’t want to quote the same person, that’s, you know something that I’ve learned from my media background and training. I’ve been working as a journalist since 1995 and you know one thing that my editors say, you know, don’t quote the same person, don’t quote the same organization. So in a crisis people will call Big Box. It’s not profit sometimes, um, and they’ll just see them as being the experts for a conversation. And that’s why establishing yourself as a thought leader is so important. So someone can say, You know, I’m a unique voice about this. We have an example in our book Modern Media Relations, where someone who on organization that worked with Children and families involved in domestic violence, became very important in the conversation when a professional athlete in Georgia was convicted of family violence and all of a sudden that person was called upon to be on radio shows and talk shows and they became a thought leader. But they say done the work to position themselves is an expert. And so I know. Peter, you I know you have some examples as well, but we just got a dived in there and didn’t talk about the whole broad concept of about leadership. Well,

[00:06:44.59] spk_0:
all right. What? Um, Peter, I was gonna ask you how do we start to build these relationships? Um, you want toe? I don’t want to back up. What thought leadership is

[00:08:29.44] spk_1:
sure I’ll start with thought. Leadership defined. And that and that’s really the process of establishing ones expertise. And it’s been a specific area and and doing it in a way where they are recognized beyond their own organization in their own kind of immediate networks. As our as an expert, as a thought leader, somebody who is driving the conversation and really, really helping people better understand Ah, key issue or a topic eso for a non profit or a foundation. A thought leader might be your CEO, Um, who are executive directors, somebody who is at the front lines on dhe kind of is in a in a position where they, um not only have expertise, but they have some authority and being able to talk with some gravitas about a topic. Um, but in order to kind of establish your credentials there on get recognized, you have to do some legwork beyond just having that expertise you have to be. You have to be comfortable talking about that topic you have. Teoh. You have to spend some time kind of building the relationships and the and the and the the larger credibility that you are, somebody who has something interesting to say and the expertise to back it up. Um, and the more you do that and you can do that, not just through the media but through your own channels and through speaking at conferences and all kinds of other things. Um, the more you do that, the more you kind of become, ah, somebody who is recognized and is called upon to weigh in on important topics, or or when news events call for it or in a situation like what? Where we are now with with the Cove in 19 response. Somebody who can kind of come in and bring ah, voice of reason and perspective. Toe What’s going on around us?

[00:09:36.34] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As Changes to Paycheck Protection Program Loan Forgiveness There have been many wegner had and up to date free wedding. Are you missed it? Fret not. Go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to thought Leadership with Peter Pan, a Pento and Antoinette car, you have to lay the groundwork. There has to be some fundamentals, and you have to have your gravitas, and you need to appear bonified and be bonified, not just appear. You have to be bona fide on the topic that you’re that you’re an expert in the mission of your your non profit. How do you. Then start to when you have that groundwork. How do you then start to build relationships when there isn’t really a need for you to be talking about the subject?

[00:10:39.09] spk_1:
Sure. Um, there are a lot of ways to do that. One, is that you? You start to build some personal relationships with media who are covering these topics, and you can do that either Through You know, somebody on your communications team that helps you or you can kind of do it yourself. But you can. You can start to show up in in their coverage of stories by, um, by positioning yourself and building relationships with individual reporters, maybe even when they don’t need you by having an informational coffee or call so that they can get to know you and know what you stand for. You could do it by your through your own writing and public speaking and making those things available and accessible to the media. Um, and you can you can do it through your own channels to a lot of nonprofits have logs. They have. They have their own podcast. They have different ways where they’re positioning their internal experts externally. So that they were kind of talking about in establishing their credentials around around a subject. And

[00:10:51.39] spk_0:
that’s your That’s your owned media, right? You’re your own media reverses earned media.

[00:10:56.80] spk_1:
Yes, yes. And the value of that is that the more you’re you’re kind of demonstrating through your own to media channels, your expertise. You’re not only building some greater relationships and credibility with your donors and the folks who are already kind of in your network, but you start to show up when people are doing searches, or when people are on social media and seeing stories and articles that air getting passed around. If they may see something you’ve written or talked about, shared in another network, and it sparks a light for them that you’re somebody worth going back to when they need, um, when they need some, you know somebody like you to weigh in on something

[00:12:00.68] spk_0:
good. Peter, I know you and Internet are both former journalists. Uh, I’m gonna jump over the Internet for what? Internet What? What do these outreach, I guess calls and emails to journalists to try to build the relationship. Uh, what do they what they looked like? What would you suggest people are saying to to try to get the attention, um, to build the relationship, Not not when I’m looking to be quoted because there’s a breaking news, but to build the

[00:13:43.62] spk_2:
relationship before him. So full disclosure. I’m a current journalist. Um, so current? Yes, eso I still work for publications right now, okay. And so people contact me on Twitter and social media, which is a new thing. We talk about press releases. I’m a big fan of press releases. Yes, just full disclosure about that. But I still like for people to pitch me on social media direct messages through Twitter. If I’m using my company profile, it’s safe for Don profits to contact me and say, Hey, I have a story. I noticed that you’re interested in this concept. It’s always great when people know what I’m interested in. Like when they’re like I noticed that you publish a lot of stories. Like, right now I’m working on a story, a series of stories about missing and murdered indigenous women. And so when people see Owen notice you’re publishing stories about this and they pitch me on a direct message or um, through Facebook, message or even and say, Hey, would you consider this story? And here’s the angle, um, or have you thought about you know, I’ve had other people reach out and say, I noticed your publishing these types of stories about, you know, missing and murdered indigenous women. Have you considered other stories about violence against women? And it’s always a really great connection for me. So I think just kind of knowing what the journalist is interested in is really important kind of understanding their angle. Are you, um, understanding their angle and just flowing from there and saying, you know, here’s how we fit into this conversation is always a

[00:13:53.83] spk_0:
wonder. And so, um, so outreach by any of the social channels is is fine to you. Talk about Twitter and direct message Facebook. Those are all

[00:14:06.95] spk_2:
yes. And people tagging me like I feel like if a journalist is using their profile in a way that is professional, then you’re safe to contact them and okay, bam And that

[00:14:21.24] spk_0:
Okay? Yeah, yeah, Peter, Anything you want to add to? Yeah,

[00:15:39.87] spk_1:
I think that I think Japan that is done on about making sure, though, that when you do that you are, You are you’re you’re not coming with something that’s off the reporters beat or off of what’s up? What you know is what they cover or the type of story they cover within. That be, um you could spend a lot of effort reaching out to every journalist you see on Twitter about your specific cause. But if they don’t cover your cause, it doesn’t relate to what they what they dio. Then they’re probably they’re going to ignore you or or start to block you because you’re you’re kind of almost spamming them. So, um, it’s it’s important to be targeted with who you reach out to as well, and make sure that you understand that journalists and their work before you before you do your outreach and come at them with a pitch that they don’t necessarily want. So, yes, I think it’s really important to to do a bit of that homework upfront, um, and respect that journalist time. And if you do that and if you come at them with something that is actually on on their beat and is of interest to them, um, then I think you have a much greater chance of getting their attention and getting them to want to follow up with you and help further the relationship. Beyond that initial pitch

[00:16:58.35] spk_2:
talking can, I would share a pet peeve like to pet peeves, actually. And, um, if I write about a non profit and they don’t share the story on their own social, it’s just it’s heartbreaking for me. A lot of times I have to fight for these stories to appear and after fight with an editor to say, This is why this is newsworthy. This needs to be here. And then the non profit really doesn’t share the story. And I think, Well, you know, I don’t write for my own, you know, just deport not to be shared. Um, And then the other thing is, I love when nonprofits support stories that aren’t related to their particular story. So I’ll start noticing, like one thing, um, Kentucky non profit network, for example. Before they ever shared or were involved in anything that I was involved in, they started sharing things or liking things that I would publish as a reporter, and I didn’t know anything about them, but I thought that was interesting. So that when they pitched something. Then you’re more likely to notice it. Because as a reporter, you’re more likely to notice because you feel like they’re really genuinely interested in a conversation, even if it doesn’t apply to them. You’re so interested.

[00:17:01.63] spk_0:
Internet. Where are you writing now?

[00:17:19.41] spk_2:
I am writing working on a piece for guardian. I am from the Guardian am writing for women Advance which we have our own network. And then I write for Halifax Media Group Publications. So I’m on the regional circuit doing all the fun things.

[00:17:25.84] spk_0:
Okay? Halifax is Nova Scotia.

[00:17:39.14] spk_2:
No, Halifax is, ah, media group in the United States. Okay, Okay. They own a series of their own regional newspapers across the country. So, um, let’s talk a little

[00:17:47.28] spk_0:
about crisis management. You wonder, can you get us started with, uh, how you might, um, approach crisis communications? Internet?

[00:18:13.03] spk_2:
I thought that was Peter’s question. No, I’m just getting a crisis communications, I think, actually, Peter is a really great person to talk about this. My crisis communications conversation really has shifted with what we’re going through. So I don’t want to make it so unique to our current situation. So I let Peter start and then Peter, I could back you up on it.

[00:20:06.39] spk_1:
I’m happy. Eso crisis communications. It’s really important to not wait until the actual you’re actually in a crisis to put your plan together. It’s really important to have a protocol that you’ve set up when you’re not in the middle of a crisis of possible to really kind of put together some protocols for not only what you’re going to say, but who’s going to say it and how you’re going to communicate during that situation. So what does that protocol look like? One. Is that you up front? You designate who you are spokesperson or spokespeople are going to be ahead of time. Um, and you spend some time ahead of that coaching them up in terms of what some of the key messages for your organization are, regardless of what the crisis might be. Some things that you would broadly want to try to reinforce and kind of a mood and ah, tone that you’re gonna want to take with what you’re talking about. Um, do that 1st 2nd is that you would really want to have a system in place for how you activate that for how you activate your crisis plan and your crisis communications. So that essentially means that you want to, um, you want Teoh. Make sure that, you know, kind of who? Who needs to sign off on what you’re going to talk about, who you’re gonna be involving in your decisions on whether you need to put out a statement who, ah, how you’re going to communicate in what different channels, the more you can make those decisions ahead of time and have your structure in place, the better equipped. You aren’t actually respond during a crisis situation and be able to get up quick and accurate. And, ah, positive message out in in a situation and often crises or not, they’re crises because they’re not expected. But you could be planning ahead so that you you are able to react quickly and a full authoritatively during that situation.

[00:20:34.02] spk_0:
You’re calm pounding the crisis if you’re not prepared. Absolutely. I’m scrambling to figure out who’s in charge, who has to approve messages. Where should messages go? All which are peripheral to the to the substance of the problem?

[00:21:38.12] spk_1:
Absolutely. And in today’s world, where crises can really mushroom, not only in the media, but on social media. The longer year allowing time to pass before you’re getting out there with with your statement and bonds to it the worst, uh, the worse the situation gets for you. So you really need to position yourselves to be able to respond quickly to respond clearly and to respond accurately. Um, and it’s important to know that you know that planning ahead of time is really critical. But what you say in this situation is also critical to you Do want to make sure that you communicate truthfully. That doesn’t necessarily mean that um uh, you, uh you, um, reveal everything. Reveal everything exactly. But they do. That you do reveal is accurate. It’s not going back to bite you later. Sleep. People

[00:21:45.19] spk_0:
talk about complicating the complicating the crisis. If you’re lying or misleading, it comes back. I mean, people investigate things get found out. You

[00:21:49.55] spk_1:
absolutely. And I was

[00:21:51.94] spk_0:
rhythmically expanded. Your problem?

[00:23:09.21] spk_1:
Absolutely. And you’d be surprised how, How many times when I was a journalist that people, if they had just come clean and kind of got the truth out there right away, they may have taken a short term hit, but their lives would have cut on fine after that. But the more you try to often office Kate or or lie about the situation or or try to spin it in a way where you’re you’re kind of hiding the truth, that the worst your situation is going to get eso Bubi in a position to be as transparent and clear and accurate as possible. Um, with that first statement, uh, knowing that in some cases you might have to say, You know, we don’t know, But we’ll follow up when we do know, because sometimes ah, crisis situation is one in which, speaking of one we’re in now, we don’t know all of the all of the different twists and turns. The cove in 19 situation is going to take So but but rather than trying to speculate, or or or in some cases as we’ve seen, some some public figures do try Teoh, spend this one way or another rather than just saying, Here’s the situation. Here are concerns. Here’s what we know. Here’s what we don’t know. It compounds the situation and in some cases that it could be dangerous to people.

[00:23:15.16] spk_0:
Internet. You wanna do you want to back up a little bit?

[00:23:52.09] spk_2:
I did it so that I think the statement, um I love how people are putting forward Thes Cove in 19 states, and I think we need to have more statements like that. I mean, these statements are demanding and people feel like that, but I’m like we could do more of that. We could have statements as non profit on issues on public issues, public concerns, things that are emerging, an urgent for people I think about in the eastern part of North Carolina. Because, tony, I know you’re in Home State.

[00:23:53.44] spk_0:
I’m in eastern North Carolina,

[00:24:47.98] spk_2:
happy to have you here. And when we have hurricanes, when we have issues like that, if non profits would put out statements like they have with come in 19 if they felt like they needed to say, Here’s where we are, here’s what we do here here’s Here’s what we have to offer before during after and just update them. You know, I feel like this crisis has brought forward a level of communication and help people to see the necessary level of communication that we need the hat, but we don’t have that. All the time is non profits, and people are looking for that. So I feel like in the eastern part of North Carolina, where we had, um, you know, 100 year hurricanes within three months of each other that didn’t think what happened. You know, it is people what people made covet statements like that. I mean, what if people And so I’m just gonna start comin covitz statements, Peter, that I don’t have a better to report. But what if we felt like we needed to make these types of statements when there’s an emergency and interesting.

[00:25:05.24] spk_0:
Thank you. Um, Internet. I’m gonna ask you to wrap up with something that you said, which is contrary to a lot of what I hear. Uh, you said that you’re a big fan of press releases.

[00:25:15.48] spk_2:
I am.

[00:25:16.25] spk_0:
Could you take us out with your rationale for why you’re a big fan of them? I’ve heard that they’re pretty much obsolete

[00:25:23.54] spk_2:
from a journalist

[00:25:29.81] spk_0:
from a country. No right guest of that. I

[00:25:31.14] spk_2:
believe that. I believe that s Oh, yes, because I’ve been reading press releases for a long time and I feel like the who, What, when, Where and how gets me past that part of it. Then I can ask you all the interesting questions. So if you can give me that in a way that I can cut and paste and I will not. But you’re someone’s name like this Bill tony.

[00:25:54.71] spk_0:
More than more at risk

[00:26:15.51] spk_2:
it might be. It might be a challenge so I could weaken. Get all of that out of the way. But a good press release gets me excited. As a journalist. It brings me into the conversation, and if you aren’t excited about your press release, I can probably tell on the other end. So I had a good press release.

[00:26:17.24] spk_0:
All right, thank you. We’ll leave it there. That’s Ah, contrary advice, which which I love hearing. All right, that’s Ah, that’s Antoinette Car, part of the leadership team of Women Advance and CEO of Bold and Bright Media. And also Peter Pan, a Pento philanthropic practice leader at Turn two Communications. And they are co authors of the book Modern Media Relations for Non Profits Internet. Peter, thank you very much for sharing. Thanks so much. Thanks for

[00:26:41.86] spk_1:
having us, tony.

[00:28:23.84] spk_0:
Pleasure stay safe and thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and TC responsive by Cougar Mountain Software at 20 NTC. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take Two. You’re dismantling racism journey. That’s our newest special episode. You will have a long journey, so start with this single step. This show will be out the week of July 6th. My guest is pretty itchy Shah. She’s president and CEO of Flourish Talent Management Solutions. She shares her wisdom and solid advice on working through the journey, starting with your people, your culture and your leadership. That is tony Steak, too. Now it’s time for content strategy with Valerie Johnson and Katie Green. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit Technology conference. We’re sponsored a 20 ntc by Cougar mouth and software. My guests now are Katie Green and Valerie Johnson. Katie is digital giving manager for the Trevor Project. And Valerie Johnson is director of institutional Advancement at Pathways to Housing, P A, K T. And Valerie. Welcome.

[00:28:32.74] spk_3:
I deliver having us.

[00:28:59.74] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure. Good to good to talk to both of you. And glad to know that you’re each safe and well, um, in in Brooklyn and Ah, suburban Philadelphia. Glad you’re with us. Um, you’re NTC. Ah. What shop was content? Strategy for donor engagement. From tactics to testing. Um, let’s start with you. Ah, Katie. What? What did you feel was the need for the session Where non profits not getting doing so well, it could be doing a lot better.

[00:29:42.74] spk_3:
Yeah. So we have a session this morning at same time as the originally a plan, which is great. You were able to give it virtually. And I think what a lot of donor content strategy is missing is simply structure. I think a lot of people don’t know where to start, and they’re intimidated by it. And we, Valerie and I provided some real life examples on how you can achieve a donor content strategy that does get you closer to your revenue bulls. However, the tone of the presentation changed a little bit, given how the world has come to be our new reality. So we did talk a little bit about the crisis and what it means for fundraising and what it means for content strategy under a tight timeline, knowing that things are changing at a really rapid pace. So really just structure and story telling or the things that we talked about in this morning presentation, which will be available or, uh, viewing later, we’re gonna have a recording available for those who weren’t able to make it. But yeah, that’s what we focus on.

[00:30:29.30] spk_0:
Okay, um, remind me at the end. If I forget, let me know where that recording let us know where that recording is gonna be. Um, were you part of the plug in? That was That was that was today. Is that what that where you did your session or are plugged in now it was made with something else. Where did you do?

[00:30:32.82] spk_3:
Yeah, I don’t Gallery actually knows more about that. Um

[00:30:36.16] spk_0:
where did you did you do this session, Valerie

[00:30:40.14] spk_3:
Valerie was so kind to plan it all for us, so I don’t wanna speak over

[00:30:48.60] spk_4:
Valerie. Sorry. Looking it up. I wanted to make sure I was getting the correct name of the organization that helped us to put this together. Um, So Nyah at Bowery analytics contacted us. Um, and she actually contacted a large number of people who were planning to stick at N 10 because in 10 wasn’t able to do a virtual conference. The what she and Bowery analytics pulled together a bunch of us to help get the zoom set up and get the weapon are set up and get everything scheduled and get some registration links together. Um, all of the webinars for free. And a lot of us had already developed a content, So why not?

[00:31:28.22] spk_0:
Yeah, And for non profit radio as well. I’m glad we could do it here, too. So you want to tell us now where, where condone listeners find the full session? Do you know

[00:31:44.56] spk_4:
the full sessions are going to be available through Bowery analytics? It’s B o w e r y analytics dot com, and we’ll make sure we get a link to our specific such number.

[00:31:58.54] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. Thank you. Um, let’s start with, uh, part of the good strategy is using personas user personas. Can you kick us off with that? Valerie? How do you How do you start to identify what persona looks like? And what’s their value?

[00:32:53.84] spk_4:
Absolutely. So persona is really like a profile or a character sketch of someone that you need to connect with, um, and understanding their motivations and goals. So it’s a way of segmenting your audience. And rather than sending all of your messaging out into the ether trying to tailor that messaging to a specific demographic or a specific group of people, So for pathways to housing p a were actually still developing. What are person does look like? We have an idea of what it looks like, but we want to dig support into the research and analytics side of things to see who exactly is supporting us right now. And what, um, ties they have in common to help us build those profiles. I think Katie might be a little bit further ahead of us in developing this personas. I’m gonna toss it over to her. Yeah.

[00:32:55.44] spk_3:
Yeah. So, uh, user personas are something I’ve been doing throughout my career. I worked in an agency before I came to the Trevor Project, so I was able to get a lot of industry knowledge on how we create user personas and user journeys. But what we did when we started looking at our end of your campaign for last year Trevor Project, we made sure we carved out some time Teoh conduct a little bit of an audit of what our donors were looking like. Where were they coming from, what could be tracked, what could be tracked? We found out we had a lot more questions that needed answers. So in order to get user personas, something that’s really important is tracking and understanding where people are coming from and where their first and Lex last clicks are. So because of our ability to do so. Google Analytics and Source code Tracking Protocol. We did get a lot of tracking during end of year that will improve. What are user pursuant is like going into future campaigns, but now we’re gonna be able to better tell what is actually inspiring. People give what is the moment where they’re actually clicking that donate button. What is the first thing they’re seeing that’s starting a relationship with the trouble project. So

[00:34:06.99] spk_2:
what are

[00:34:13.06] spk_0:
the pieces of a persona? How granular do you get is where they live, to what they read or what? Yeah, give us, um, a depth of this thing.

[00:36:05.73] spk_3:
Absolutely so the main important piece of a persona is to know what their needs are so you can have a persona that says, General, as this is a donor, they need to know how to give. That’s a persona, but what you’d like to do is get a little bit deeper in being able to tell what the values of that persona are. What’s what’s the name? What’s the age? What’s The character is sticks. What are the opportunities, Really. You know, I like to create fake names and really go into a new stock in Madrid so that you can try to connect with who this person might be. You’re really giving ah face to a name and a value to a person, and you want to look at what donors are looking like. So, for example, for the Trevor Project, we have a lot of one time first time donors, and we have a lot of people who come in. They give their first gift, and I’m trying to find where they’re dropping off, right? What is causing that? So I baby create a persona that is, Ah, one time user that’s not really convinced they want to give again one time donor. They may be young. They may be, um, like within our demographic, which is under 25 youth that we serve with our Christ. The service is in suicide prevention. Service is, um so you can get as granular is making a name and an aged in the demographic and the location and what devices they’re using. I think that’s a big one. Is this person usually on their mobile? Are they usually on test top? What channels do they typically like to look at Twitter? You can get as granular email. Are they just looking at your website? So you know it should get a detailed as you can, but I would encourage people to get really creative with it. If the more detailed you’re able to get, it’s just a just a more clear picture of a donor that you’re looking to target just make sure it’s someone you actually want to target and not someone you’re gonna be. Uh, that wouldn’t actually be coming to you like maybe Bill Gates isn’t gonna be coming. Teoh. A non profit website to donate. But you can look at what those specific I don’t as I would like that are more realist. Extra Your

[00:36:27.10] spk_0:
okay, right? You’re basically non. What’s realistic? Not what you aspiration is.

[00:36:36.82] spk_3:
Yeah, two degree. I mean, I think you could be aspirational, aspirational in some facets of what you’re doing. It has to be somewhat grounded in, you know, a realistic approach. We do get asked. I get aspirational myself when I’m creating donor personas. When you know I am looking for major gifts. I am looking for people who are willing to process a $15,000 credit card charge. And there are people out there that that do that. So when I do my donor personas, they may not be the number one target of my campaign. But I do want to consider what those people are interested in, as well so that I can personalized content for them to the best of my ability.

[00:37:10.53] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:37:24.13] spk_4:
Yeah, the other thing to keep in mind is diversifying your donor base. So in looking at who’s giving two pathways to housing right now, they’re mostly middle aged, college educated white women who prefer Facebook and giving on a desktop. Um, which is fine. And that’s definitely one category of people that you would want to be supporting you. But Philadelphia is an incredibly diverse city. So if those are the only people that we’re getting to with our messaging, that we really need to think about diversifying our strategies to build new donor profiles for people who don’t all look the same.

[00:38:14.55] spk_0:
And then once you have a bunch of personas and profile that I mean it sounds like you could have 10 or 12 really different ones different. Um, yeah, different characteristics of people, different types of people that come to you. And like you, said Kate, even people who leave no, you want to capture them back. So once you have these Valerie, then you’re trying to communicate to them. But how do you How do you turn your communications into targets to these personas?

[00:38:27.62] spk_4:
So you really want to think about building content specifically for that persona, so you might be doing a campaign that you want to hit a couple of different personas with. But you’re gonna taylor that campaign specifically to each persona and deliver the message Teoh a specific segment of that campaign. So if you’re gonna do a mail campaign, um, you want to think about how you’re putting together that letter and what you’re writing into the letter and how you’re addressing the donors for each of the different segments of each of the different personas that you put together to really help craft a message and inspire them specifically to donate?

[00:38:59.82] spk_0:
Okay, right. Like it. You, like you were saying, you know, yet know what’s important to them. Um, but

[00:39:00.80] spk_1:
that stuff is this is

[00:39:03.82] spk_0:
very, uh, amorphous to try to, you know, it’s not just what they give and how much do they give And what time of year do they give? You know what’s important to them? What do they value this

[00:39:13.75] spk_4:
is This is

[00:39:14.29] spk_0:
difficult stuff to suss out.

[00:39:29.53] spk_4:
Yeah. One thing our co presenters that this morning, Marcus, was that donors were smart and they’re savvy. And with the advent of the Internet and all of the various channels that you can communicate with people now. But what they want and they know what they want to hear from you. And if they’re not hearing from you what they want, they’re gonna go find someone else who’s gonna provide that information and communicate to them the way they want to be communicated with. So fundraising and marketing for non profits right now looks very different than it did maybe 10 15 20 years ago. Um, and And donors know what they want now.

[00:40:01.31] spk_0:
Okay, so it’s worth you’re trying. Teoh suss out all this amorphous information. A ZX best you can. Okay, Katie, Is there anything more you want to say about personas before we move on to being multi channel?

[00:40:07.52] spk_3:
Let’s go on a multi channel. I could talk. Is the personas all day?

[00:40:11.59] spk_0:
All right? All right. Anything. I don’t want anything important out, though, from

[00:40:16.15] spk_3:
OK, I think we’ve covered the main points.

[00:40:18.25] spk_0:
Okay, what’s what’s what’s important about? Well, I think we all know why to be multi channel, But how to coordinate those messages? What’s your What’s your thinking there?

[00:41:37.71] spk_3:
Yeah, I can jump in here. So I think what people often don’t Dio is they don’t coordinate messages Cross channel at the right time. That’s what I’ve been seeing a lot with, just my industry research. I mean, I’m always looking at what everybody is doing in the space because I want to be part of the best. Uh, but they say they being What I’ve heard on multiple conferences is that there’s a rule of seven, right? So as a non donor, let’s am school after Facebook, I need to see and ask seven times before I’m actually likely to give. So if you’re seeing that asked seven times on Facebook, that means it’s seven posts. That’s kind of a lot, and that’s gonna have to be spaced out through a certain amount of days, weeks, months. Even so, if you’re just increasing all the channels that you’re presenting that message on, so let’s say I’m seeing it on Facebook I’m seeing in my email. I’m seeing it on my instagram. I’m getting a paid ad for it because I liked it on Facebook. That’s gonna shorten the window of which I see seven points of that call to action. So I’m gonna be more likely to give if I’m seeing it in a wider spectrum on the digital space. Then I am in just one channel. So making sure that you’re saying similar things but that our custom to what the channel is providing, like social media has, like paid ads, have a certain amount of characters you can use. So bacon shorts optimized for what channel you’re using but still with the common thread, is really important for increasing your numbers. Right.

[00:42:31.14] spk_0:
Okay, Now it’s a little clear to me why I see so many ads for the, uh, pickpocket proof slacks. I see them across all kinds of different channels. I’m not I’m hardly on Facebook anymore. But, um, I I see them when I goto websites and I’m reading articles and because one time I don’t know why, I swear it was like, three years ago I was browsing through these CIA a approved slacks with 14 pockets, and it’s all supposed to be a pickpocket. Proof for something is, you know, the $200 slacks or whatever they’re you know. But I get

[00:42:39.22] spk_3:
your seven times

[00:43:26.30] spk_0:
I has ever since. Yeah, and, uh, I know I’m not even sure that if I bought them the ads would stop. Maybe the West is sophisticated enough. No, it’s not right. That is now your brother needs pair. Whatever time for our last break turn to communications relationships, the world runs on them. We all know that turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard. So people know you’re a thought leader in your field and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo, we’ve got but loads more time for content strategy from 20 and TC. Valerie, anything you want, you want to explain about multi channel and how important it is to reinforce and be consistent.

[00:44:25.22] spk_4:
I think the biggest thing for me is if you’re starting from scratch and you’re really trying to develop content and put it in the right places, um, you really want to be thinking about who? Your audiences, all those channels. So for lengthen the messaging that you’re putting out is gonna look a lot different than what you’re putting out on Facebook. Most people use Facebook recreational E, and they use lengthen for professional relationships So the type of information that someone is seeking on Linkin or more likely to respond to go on Lincoln is a lot different than what they’re more likely to look for or respond to on Facebook. So for us, we make sure all of our job listings go up on LinkedIn. And all of our that’s specific for me was humbled Lincoln just to kind of show our expertise in the area. But one were posted to Facebook. We’re talking more likely to people that we know are supporters of us and want to do tangible things to support us. So the messaging is different, even though the information is really the same.

[00:45:00.29] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. Again, you’re consistent, but consistent, but different. Maybe different format even. Um OK, yeah. Um I mean, there’s there’s other format, you know, content paper. Were white papers, Um, again, depending for the right for the right channel research. Um, do

[00:45:01.51] spk_2:
either of

[00:45:12.58] spk_0:
you use, um, media working in working through thought leadership in developing thought leadership in media media relationships A

[00:45:14.19] spk_4:
little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So there is a local media outlet here in Philadelphia called Generosity, and they are focused on nonprofits and social enterprises and people who are making positive impact in Philadelphia. So they’re super open to having folks guest post or write op EDS for them. So we’ve utilized that outlet a couple of times. Um, actually, just last week, uhm our CEO wrote an article about the opportunity for kindness in the era of Corona virus. So it’s something that she actually wrote to communicate to our staff members and let them know what our stance on, you know, moving forward was going to be. And we thought it was think that would be beneficial. Not just our staff, but the at large. So we pass it along to they posted it as an op ed and that gave us, um, a little bit more bang for our buck for that we had already written.

[00:46:07.22] spk_0:
Yeah. Good, good. Um, Katie, you’re doing much with earned media.

[00:46:11.38] spk_3:
I am not. The Trevor Project is. But Katie Green is not that our constant handle that.

[00:46:20.12] spk_0:
OK, um, let’s talk about some some analytics. How do we know whether we’re being successful on where we need to? We need to tweak or pivot. Can you get us started?

[00:46:42.48] spk_3:
Absolutely. So analytics is very hard for a lot of nonprofits because it’s such a scientific based, skilled touch. And, you know, that’s something that when I first came onto the Trevor Project, is the first thing I implemented was our source coding protocol. It’s so important to know where people are coming from, but you can actually optimize, but we a be tested and continue to be test absolutely everything. We do it through. Ah, our website radio through email, We do it through our paid social and to see how things work. I think really we just test absolutely everything. Things you think you know you don’t. And that’s what I keep learning through. Testing is what you think works today, work tomorrow and we retest everything. A time of day test, for example, isn’t gonna throw send for email isn’t gonna be the same after daylight savings. It’s not gonna be the same as the seasons change, and particularly not the same now that everybody is stuck at home. So you know, they’re testing and optimizing Really, what you know is working. It just requires retesting, re optimizing and testing.

[00:47:43.41] spk_0:
Could you could you give some more examples Besides time of day. What examples of things you test.

[00:49:01.17] spk_3:
Oh, absolutely. So on our website we tested, we have a little call out box with questions on our donate form. We tested the placement of that. Is it better to have it right up next to the form underneath, directly on tops of dispersing people see to be tested. Placement there. We test what photos we use. A lot does a photo of somebody looking sad versus somebody looking more celebratory and happy. We test a lot of pride imagery because the serv LGBT Q youth We want to see if pride imagery actually helps get our word out there. We test our colors a lot because our brand colors orange, which is can be very cautionary. But we see you think that it’s your brand color. Of course, everybody’s gonna always just on toe, But that’s not really the case like sometimes they like our blues and R purples and greens when it comes to see ta buttons. Um, gosh, I mean, I could tell you every test I’ve ever run thunder test, some using graphics versus photos on the website. You know, the size with the height of our life boxes with mark donation forms. The amount of buttons we have it just the list goes on and on. I

[00:49:21.77] spk_0:
heard one that just made me think of one small example of what? Riffing off What you just said was testing the text inside a button. Yeah, instead of just donate or ah, reviewed or something, you know, beam or more splits explicit about what? The what? The action is you asking for just a single word. A little more descriptive.

[00:49:56.13] spk_3:
Yeah, Testing. See, Ta Izz is something that we dio a lot just to get people some ideas. I think one that can be really helpful when it comes to fundraising is seeing how your donors reacts to the word give and the word support and the word donate. So all the same thing we’re after you to support our mission to give to us and to donate. But those three words have very different feelings when you’re reading them on your screen. So that’s one of the biggest test we ran. But I would recommend always test taking see ta when you have a new one, especially

[00:50:05.61] spk_0:
Was it was it act blue that, uh, change dot or GE, I think maybe change that or GE started calling it chip in, could you? Chimp man,

[00:50:12.99] spk_3:
I think that that flail sounds like a classic act Blue.

[00:50:18.26] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Um eso Valerie, can you talk us through some metrics? You’re the director of institutional advancement. What? What numbers do you look for? Decide how you’re doing.

[00:51:11.98] spk_4:
Ah, we look at a lot of things. So we’re looking at the click through rates on our emails and honor Post, actually reading to the bottom and clicking the links that we’re providing. Um, we’re looking at how many people are interacting with things that were posting on social media and whether they are, um, injuring it. We’re not. Hey, son, how many people are interacting with it? Um, we took a lot of surveys to do. So talking to our donors directly and asking them what kind of things they won’t see. What kind of thanks. Um I know Katie’s doing ah lot more with metrics than we are. So this is my friendly reminder to smaller nonprofits where there’s just one person trying to do all of this. You don’t have to recreate the feel eso you could look at an organization like the Trevor Project that does have the staff who can look at all of these things. And you, all of these tests chicken, all of the match person, See, But for the past at a imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. So you can look at what they’re doing and then borrow It s o for an organization like me that has a fuller staff were doing a little bit on our own. But we’re also looking a lot of what other nonprofits were doing and a scooping that they’re taking the time to test things. And we’re kind of, you know, copying what they’re doing, obviously successful for them.

[00:51:44.45] spk_0:
How do you learn from them? Do you just created build a relationship and then asked, What? What kind of metrics do you look at?

[00:51:51.46] spk_4:
Sometimes And sometimes it’s a simple as going to the Trevor Project websites donate page and seeing where they placed things and what they named their buttons and what giving levels they’re putting up there. Um, because, you know, you’re never gonna be exactly the same as another organization. So you definitely want to take a look at your use thing as an example and use someone who’s doing similar work or in a similar location to you. But at the end of the day, there’s only so much you can learn through testing. And after that you’re just gonna have to dive in and do something. So if you don’t have time for the testing, you could do a quick search of what everybody in your industry is doing and kind of take it from there and said,

[00:52:33.45] spk_0:
Katie, since everybody’s stealing from the Trevor Project, What, uh, what? I assume you knew Valerie was doing this.

[00:52:36.65] spk_3:
I didn’t. But it’s such a compliment

[00:52:39.48] spk_4:
is because you do a great job. That’s why we’re looking at you.

[00:52:43.95] spk_3:
Oh, gosh,

[00:52:44.69] spk_0:
What do you want to add about? Metrics?

[00:52:48.65] spk_3:
Um, I think I just want toe reiterate Valerie’s point that there are so many nonprofits where one person is doing us. Um, I’m the only person on the digital giving team. I’m the first person they were hired to do. Digital living. Um, I’ve been still with the team member of one, but, you know, I do have the support of a very large marketing team that helps me with creating all of the tests that we dio and anyone can tweet me, email me whatever it like any non profit everyone to connect. I Moyes unopened resource. But, uh, metrics are increasingly, uh, important. Just critical role to donors. Content strategy. So

[00:53:29.99] spk_0:
is your offering yourself as a resource. Do you want to share your e mail and or your Twitter? You don’t have to give your email if you don’t want to.

[00:53:37.22] spk_3:
Yeah, maybe Twitter is probably the best way to reach me because I’m trying. I’m trying to learn how to tweet more as a digital person. I feel like radio its act. Katie Sue Green like one word. So it’s k a t i e after you e g r e n Katie Stuart Green green. Just like the color. No, ESPN.

[00:54:05.19] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Thank you. Um, that’s a Valerie. You want to, uh, gonna wrap us up some parting thoughts about content strategy?

[00:54:07.13] spk_4:
Sure. Um, since I am kind of representing the smaller organization here, I just want to remind everybody that you’re doing everything that you can, and it’s everything that you’re doing is important. So don’t try to do everything at once, really. Pick one thing to focus on and get to a point where you’re doing that well and comfortably before you try to add more. Um, listen, podcast like this or going to a presentation like the one that we did this morning is overwhelming in the number of things that you could be. Do you think? And it makes you feel like you’re not doing enough? But you are. And just tackling the small hills one at a time is much, much easier than trying to climb the mountain.

[00:56:13.47] spk_0:
That’s very gracious. Gracious advice. Thank you. Thanks very much. That was Valerie Johnson. That is Valerie Johnson, director of Institutional Advancement at Pathways to Housing P A. And with her is Katie Green. Digital giving manager for Trevor Project. Thank you very much for sharing each of you Thanks so much. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC pulling it together. Virtually responsive by Cougar Mouth and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain will get you a free 60 day trial. Thanks a lot for being with us next week. Accessibility and inclusive design If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff, Sam Liebowitz Managed Stream shows. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy on this

[00:56:22.08] spk_8:
Music is by Scots with me next week for non

[00:56:29.63] spk_0:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for June 26, 2020: Improv For Culture And Creativity & Tech Policies

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Krystal Ramseur & Graziella Jackson: Improv For Culture And Creativity
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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:01.54] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with UV itis if I saw that you missed today’s show. Improv for Culture and Creativity. A performer and a board member from Washington Improv Theater Teach us how improvisation can make your team more creative, confident, supportive and successful. They’re Crystal Ramsar and got Cielo Jackson. That’s part of our 20 and TC coverage. Also. Tech policies Karen Graham and Dan Getman want to help your staff avoid scams, malware and inappropriate data handling. Might you have employees using personal phones or computers for work? You especially need to listen. Karen is with Tech Impact, and Dan is at manna. This is also part of our 20 and TC coverage on tony steak, too. Thank you were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO here is improve. Brilliant. Yes. This is the lackluster host that you’re stuck with. Here is improv for culture and creativity. Welcome

[00:02:52.34] spk_3:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know, the conference had to be canceled, but, you know, we’re persevering. Virtually sponsored a 20 NTC by cougar math and software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial, I guess now are Crystal Ram sore. And Graciela Jackson Crystal is chief administrative officer at the National Council of Negro Women. Gretz Yella is partner and CEO at Echo and Co. Um, Also, Crystal is a teacher and performer and board member at Washington Improv Theater, which is most relevant to what we’re talking about today. And Graciela is a board member at UIT Washington and breath theater. Crystal Graciela, Welcome.

[00:02:56.54] spk_4:
Thank you. Glad to be here, but

[00:03:29.90] spk_3:
have you? I’m glad we could work this out. I’m glad you reach well and safe in our nation’s capital area. They were both in D C D c. Proper. Yeah. Yep. Your ah ntc topic is improv. Saves the non profit boosting culture and create team creativity. Um, that’s interesting, because I am on, uh, how does it do that? Oh, even though on, uh, even though I turned to my, uh, even though I’m on Eric’s airplane mode because zoom because we’re special way all the fatal started a few minutes early. That’s why

[00:03:36.28] spk_4:
it’s asking you to improvise. It’s very timely and relevant.

[00:03:46.04] spk_3:
Thank you. And I didn’t do a very good job Called out for what it was. I didn’t even, um so, Crystal, let’s start with you. What? Um why? How come, Ah, improvisation can help us out creatively. Effectively. Team building. What? What about it?

[00:03:57.70] spk_2:
Yeah, So I think one of the biggest things I love about improv is it really pushes you to stay present and stay in the moment. And because in what we’re working with right now and then creating together. So I think a lot of times in business or you’re in meetings and you’re having thoughts about ideas and people like, Well, we tried that idea last year, didn’t work, which was 10 years ago, didn’t work, or if we do that And the people are already thinking of reasons why we can’t do something but right. Improv focuses on No. We’re working with what we have right here in the present. And presently this is this is these are the parameters. Why couldn’t we try this? And the number one rule in improv is Yes. And so if we say yes, how do we then take that idea and continue to build something together? And I think when you just those principles right there make for better working community.

[00:04:58.88] spk_3:
Great yellow. There’s also a confidence building, right? You walk out on the improv stage. I’m taking the example of just two people. You know, their team exercising everything. But you walk out with just two people. One of you has an opening line, and you gotta build a sketch around it for the next 4 to 5 minutes around that fine. And the other part, neither. And the other person doesn’t know what that opening line even

[00:06:27.97] spk_4:
is. Yeah, I It’s interesting. I think there’s an incredible freedom that comes from what Crystal was saying. Presence. Because if you are able to, and I think what improv teaches you to do to just respond to what’s given to you in the moment and say, like, I don’t have to do this huge thing right now. I don’t have toe entertain this gigantic audience. All I have to do is take this thing that my partner contributed as a gift and build on it. You find yourself being able to create things with a lot more freedom with less, much less of the fear that comes from, like worrying about the benefit of your contribution or whether or not you have the perfect or the right answer. And I think one thing that I learned just in taking trainings on this and being a part of the board is you have to be as willing to abandon what you’ve contributed and contribute something new and just be constantly moving forward with creative ideas rather than getting stuck in the mindset of judging what you just created. So it’s kind of separating your creative brain from your critical brain and super important.

[00:06:29.38] spk_3:
That’s interesting that, yeah, you don’t have time to self censor. You’re you’re in front of an audience. You heard a line and you’re supposed to build on it.

[00:06:51.05] spk_4:
Yeah, and there’s something exciting about the active discovery like When you really invest in that thing that you’re building together, you’re probably going to find something that’s even more interesting and funny and entertaining and no crystal. You do this all the time and some of the exercises that you’ve lead, but it’s it’s sort of being willing to just keep going because you’re gonna build something bigger and more exciting and more powerful. If you just don’t stop yourself

[00:07:07.52] spk_3:
and crystal, you keep going. Regardless of what the audience reaction is, right, you don’t you don’t just walk off stage when lying. Number two, you know, didn’t get a huge laugh or wasn’t even supposed to get a laugh. And then you just walk off stage, Say off, you know, screw it.

[00:07:34.63] spk_2:
No. And you’re in this together with your scene partners. I think I love that like we’re out here. Wow, we made this choice to be aliens in the West. Didn’t you know what? That’s where we’re at? And we got to commit to this and we just commit harder to it right and see where it leads.

[00:08:04.28] spk_3:
Robe use that aliens and robots in a cornfield way have to build a robot family. The two of us. Yeah, just, you know, whatever. All right. So, uh, Crystal, were you gonna be doing exercises if you had had the opportunity to do the session? The usually so games or anything?

[00:08:07.00] spk_2:
Yep. Yeah. So we had a feeling good today, So we had a list of games. Really? Toe kind of show. Ah, little bit of intro into improv. Doing some? Yes. And, um What, Graciela has the list?

[00:08:21.55] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, I couldn’t pull it up. I think it started with it, I think,

[00:09:00.63] spk_3:
instead of instead of reading the list. Yeah. Never doing improbably, don’t just talk about what we’re gonna do, right? Sit around like a board, Actually, actually, do we actually dio not talk about? Wouldn’t it be funny if we did this? This would be fun to do that, and so we never do that. So how are we going, Teoh doing improv, the three of us that will, um, some kind of game that will bring home, of course, the lessons that we’re trying to learn in terms of culture, team building, confidence, creativity, efficiency. What are we gonna do? I’m putting you on the spot deliberately.

[00:09:35.34] spk_2:
I don’t want you want Can we plan the vacation? Yes. Like point of it was just telling us. So let’s do this. So I plan a vacation, and we’ll planet with the three of us will go. I can start and we go from me to Graciela to tony, and then we’ll just keep circling like that. So the way we’ll do it is we’re trying to plan a vacation for the three of us. The first line of the sentence when you respond to someone, has to be Yes. And and then you can pushing forward from there. Go. So, uh, wow. I’m so glad that were doing this vacation. I really think we need to go somewhere warm.

[00:09:47.04] spk_4:
Yes, and we need to go somewhere warm immediately.

[00:09:56.44] spk_3:
Yes, and we can. I mean, I’m already packed. Let’s, uh let’s go. I mean, I love the Caribbean of either. Have you been to the Caribbean?

[00:10:04.24] spk_2:
Yes. And I’ve decided I’m just gonna by all of us a new wardrobe while we’re there. So I don’t even aggressively not back. Didn’t even need to pack. Let’s go right now. And I say we have margaritas as soon as we get there.

[00:10:16.78] spk_4:
Yes. And after the margaritas will party a little bit, and then we’ll go snorkeling.

[00:10:23.59] spk_3:
Oh, yes. And, um, since I’m not bring any clothes now, I’m just gonna go snorkeling naked.

[00:10:29.64] spk_2:
Yes, and we’re gonna feel the water, and I bet will make friends with dolphins. Yes, and everybody

[00:10:37.67] spk_4:
will get excited about what we’re doing, and they’ll want to join as well.

[00:10:47.90] spk_3:
Oh, yes. And this party is just gonna get even bigger. Um, we Let’s invite more folks, not just the three of us.

[00:10:50.54] spk_2:
Yes. And let’s blast this to everyone that we’ve ever met and tell them Jump in the water with us. And let’s make this the new party. Yes. And let’s see if

[00:11:03.59] spk_4:
we can get a boat so we can take this party toe other islands.

[00:11:17.27] spk_3:
Oh, yes. And while we’re going between the islands, we could be fishing. There’s, like, weaken dive off the boat on our way to the other island. So the the boat is part of the is part of the

[00:11:20.44] spk_2:
fun. Perfect. There. We owe that. I love that activity.

[00:12:28.40] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As, I said a couple of weeks ago. This shit is hitting a fan fast. It’s still coming down at us. That’s Ah, that’s a mixed metaphor, really, because if it’s hitting the fan that’s not coming down, it’s being blown at us, Uh, coming fast, still raining down on us. It’s coming, blowing, it’s blowing on us. It’s hitting the fan and it’s still blowing on us. That’s better. Anyway, this shit is there. However, it got to us recovered in it. Wegner has a new free webinar on July 1st to explain the latest on paycheck protection program loan forgiveness. You know you need to apply for it. You don’t get it automatically now. What wegner explains to register goto wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is now back to improv for culture and creativity with Crystal Ram sore, a gutsy Ella Jackson.

[00:12:43.74] spk_2:
What we do sometimes when we do it will start the activity bus, saying you first have to plan a vacation by doing no because, yeah, you say No, but and you do it that way or you say no, because and you try to plan a vacation and it’s so hard, right? Because every time you you threw out an idea like let’s get a boat, the person’s like No, because I’m scared of a boat. And so you realize you don’t do anything. You’re likely

[00:12:57.88] spk_3:
roller. The idea is becoming someone’s muller and harder to deal with. Uh, instead of broadening. Okay. Um right. So, crystal, what we learn from what we just did in a couple minutes

[00:13:09.84] spk_2:
when we learn, uh, what happens when we all, like, let ourselves be creative and have the wildest thought that we’ve ever had? Um, you know, if you just were in a meeting and we wanna figure out how we increase this sales numbers, what have Let’s just throw out the wildest thing we’ve ever thought And let’s play with it for a little bit and let’s not shut it down right away. Let’s play around with this idea and see what we can come up with together.

[00:13:39.24] spk_3:
Okay? That’s the other anything you want you want to add?

[00:14:17.63] spk_4:
Yeah, I think that it’s really, really important because I think we’re where organizations, especially non profit teams, get stuck most often because they’re in fast paced, scarce resource environments where you know every dollar you spend on idea is really important. I think that bringing this technique in and allowing yourself some space to say, Let’s just separate the created creation of ideas from the judging of ideas and the vetting ideas and try to get to a place where we are envisioning what’s possible because it’s counter to our culture and and has to be in some ways to be to do that. And so it just allows you toe get past. You know, the 1st 3 or four ideas which are always the ones that are more familiar, safer, probably more likely to be accepted and really set those aside and push yourselves to think in new ways about challenges It doesn’t. There’s no risk in spending the time coming up with ideas. And if you can use these tools to get everybody feeling comfortable on open and curious and creative, and you know you can design the collaboration really well and bring games into it, you end up with this whole inventory of possibilities that then you can take into a more critical process and evaluate and put things like metrics and objectives around them. But chances are people will feel more included in the process. They’ll forget that time is passing cause they’ll have fun. They’ll feel like the quality of their ideas is better, and they’ll feel like they accomplished something that then they can take and turn into something better.

[00:15:19.64] spk_3:
You go and you have some rules around this, right? Like, yeah, we’re not. We’re not judging. We’re not saying that idea sucks. No, it’s it’s, you know, sort of classic brainstorming. Yeah, it’s just the free flow of ideas.

[00:15:33.17] spk_4:
Yeah, the one that that Washington and profit teacher a Washington improv theater teaches us is definitely the concept of yes and that Krystle mentioned. There’s also the concept of Let go, and that’s about just removing your bias and your preconceived notions and the things you’re bringing into the room with. You just let go of all of those notice everything because probably the things that you’re ignoring also have possibility. And we’re so used to not letting go and then Onley noticing what’s important to us. And then I think the last one is used everything. It’s sort of whatever is brought into the room. See if you can apply it to something, even if it’s toe honing. You know your idea. Been proving your idea? I don’t know. Crystal, did I represent those well enough?

[00:16:18.21] spk_2:
Absolutely no, I think, especially when you talk about using everything. That’s the other part about that exercise that I like so much. It’s forcing you to listen to what the person before you just said. Really listen to what they say, because you have to build off of it. So instead of just you’re already thinking of your idea, you can’t think of it yet. You need to wait to hear what that other person says.

[00:16:53.94] spk_4:
Yeah, there’s, Ah, there’s, I think like when you think about what? How work is changing right now. In addition to needing to be open, more collaborative, more agile, getting things out the door faster with less resistance. A lot of that has to do with also being able to take a systems view of things. And if you’re not actually using these techniques and these approach to build an understanding of the scope of what you’re dealing with, so if you’re thinking about like social change or environmental change, the idea is you have tow, envision the system, and if you spend 30 minutes sort of saying this is important No, it’s not. This is important. No, it’s not versus Let’s spend the next hour identifying everything about this system that’s important. Then you can start to, you know, group those things and come up with plans around those things that’s incredibly helpful for strategic planning

[00:17:32.74] spk_3:
or just everything. Not everything that’s important. But everything that impacts. Yeah, that’s around this system. Outside influences, our own influences, our own biases, everything that impacts our work. Yeah, Neville, categorize what we have control over what we don’t What’s what’s significant? What’s thus significant?

[00:18:52.83] spk_4:
Yeah, way had this thing. This organization we’re working with is a large labour union, and they had were working with them on rethinking their Web presence, and they have more than 30,000 pieces of content across lots of websites. And our content strategist did an exercise Gina Marie condo, the Netflix show about just like taking everything out of your closet, putting it in a pile, going through it, cleaning it until you’re everything around you brings you joy. I’ve never seen it, but she created this exercise, which was more or less improv that didn’t get to Let’s talk about all of the content that you’re gonna be losing from this Web presence. Let’s spend time sort of improvising what it’s like to move out of a house. What do you do in what order? And she went through this really detailed activity where people built the experience of what it’s like to move a house, and then they designed that whole process in system. And then they basically compared that to what it’s like to cleanse 30,000 pieces of content. And people immediately understood the process because they are familiar with this challenge of needing to move your house if you’ve been through that before. And so they forgot that what they were doing was planning change management. All they did was Plant was like We’re planning something familiar to them and then borrowing from those concepts to accomplish this big, scary thing that nobody wanted to dio. So I think that’s the power of of this work and creativity and adapting the exercises to your space

[00:19:58.82] spk_3:
Crystal. Let’s talk some about, um, the team building. Like I was saying earlier, you know, you walk out on improv stage two of you. One of these got an opening line from, ah, word that an audience member throughout, and you’re you’re each counting on each other. Yes, and and follow all the other principles of bring everything in that you’ve got. And that’s not censoring yourself, etcetera. But you’re building on each other. It’s confidence building and team building s over the individual and for the team of two, or could be a bigger team. Talk some about that. How improv helps helps that way around team team cohesion.

[00:22:03.74] spk_2:
Yea, I think it also it helps. Trust is the other part of it as well that I think that builds. Um, one of the I worked with a group where we on organization and they’re one of the issues was they had a whole issue around hierarchy. They just hired a bunch of people and let go of a bunch of people. And a lot of people didn’t feel like their work really mattered or that their voice mattered. Um, and so they weren’t sharing their ideas and meetings, and they actually brought a group of improvisers to come and do a whole workshop and the all the exercises that we did, we’re focused on know everybody has a piece in what we’re doing, and it’s vital, and we need everyone to fully, um fully do their work, and then I need to fully accept what you’re giving me, right? So, yeah, if it were walking out on that stage is a blank stages. I always tell people there’s there’s nothing there. So if I say we’re aliens in Oklahoma and you’ve gotta agree that yes, we’re aliens. What does that mean? You know, we can build Bring that into this, um, you got agree where we are, and then part of it is the two of us that are on the stage. But then anyone else on the team, right? Whoever’s gonna edit that scene, whoever is gonna ah, wipe the scenes of them were out of their everybody. That is a part of this team, whether they’re on stage right now or not, are still a part of what’s happening and have a piece to play and how we do this. And I think that’s that same thing. When you talk about an organization, right, you have people that are clearly gonna be the ones to make that final decision. But so everyone has some role that they need to play. Um, in order for everyone to feel that value to and that. And a lot of the work that we do is building that trust that I know I could go out there and say something to you. And I know you’re gonna listen to me. You’re gonna pick it up, and we’re gonna build that together and not you’re gonna shoot my idea down and say we’re not aliens in Oklahoma were just two people stuck in North Carolina. You know what else

[00:22:19.64] spk_3:
can listen to do crystal? Maybe another exercise that they can practice? Oh, are you know, so that they can sort of see the benefits of reap the benefits of the improv principles. Uh, okay. You don’t have the benefit of actually doing the exercises. What else? Ah, what about some of the game folks can play to get some benefits? I get either Christmas or either one.

[00:23:38.94] spk_4:
Well, I can as crystal you’re thinking about some. I think they’re simple. Exercise weaken dio, I think Teoh address very common feelings. One is just feeling blocked or feeling blank when someone asks you a direct question. Because if you’re at all you know, if you don’t think that way, or if you don’t want to take center stage three of a fear of public speaking. The only way to overcome that is to practice, and you can practice in really small ways. So one thing we do with most organizations we go into and and run creative workshops are very simple word exercises where you have a group of people around the circle and you just say a word and you go around the circle on the person next to you says the first word that comes to mind. And it’s about listening and learning about yourself when you’re trying to anticipate what to say because you want to perform well versus really just being in the moment and offering a word. So if I were to say crystal, if Aiken borrow you for a minute and say, um, the word blue

[00:23:42.39] spk_2:
and I’m sorry and you want me to do

[00:23:44.09] spk_4:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does. And I’m putting you on the spot. Um, yeah, I just like to say the word first word that comes to mind I felt so yeah.

[00:23:56.64] spk_2:
Um, green,

[00:24:07.24] spk_4:
uh, read blood. Ah, Death church. Um, community.

[00:24:13.74] spk_2:
Ah, in breath. Fun. Uh, um rafts,

[00:24:55.98] spk_4:
um joy. Family well and so on and it’s It’s funny because even this exercise, the first time we do it with a group of people, let’s say more than five people. Everyone gets nervous and we’re not really doing anything. We’re just saying words that come to mind based on what somebody else said. So if you can just do that a couple times and talk about why is it you know, a little bit of self awareness? Why is it that we feel uncomfortable in the moment? What’s operating behind that is a that fear of contribution. It’s kind of the fight flight freeze impulse when you’re on the spot. So I think and there’s tons of these games available online to use as warm up activities or team building activities. I think we we may have or are gonna have some on our website, which is echo dot Co and, um, and it’s just really important to get in the habit of not just jumping into a meeting, but offering some of these activities to help get a sense of presence, a sense of what we call psychological safety, which is everybody feels like they are open to contribute at without embarrassment or without hanging criticism without judgment. Yeah, without judgment. That’s yeah.

[00:25:49.09] spk_3:
So there’s some resource. Is that eco E C h o dot co. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, that’s crystal you. It’s Ah, bookend. You opened up. Why don’t you just take us out with some final thoughts? Whatever you have, you want clothes

[00:26:26.52] spk_2:
final? That’s OK, so I do. But I do want to share one of my other favorite exercises since we were just talking about it. And I love this one because I taught improv with Children teaching probably people who have taken classes or have actually done a teaching profit, a homeless shelter as well. But my favorite exercise is panel of experts, and it’s so fun because anybody can contribute. And you immediately when we talk about building that trust, building that team, it’s you can have really as many people. But you know, at least three, maybe like 3 to 6.

[00:26:31.35] spk_3:
Let’s plan. All right, we got we’ll go a little bit longer. Like a

[00:26:31.66] spk_6:
minute and 1/2

[00:26:33.33] spk_3:
or so What?

[00:27:30.49] spk_2:
So so panel of experts, each of us, the three of us were doing like a Ted talk here where we have this audience and we pick and you can pick just a Monday ING thing anything. And then we’re gonna be the experts of that thing so we can go around in the same order that we did. And we’re just gonna be It’s as if we’re like I said, giving a Ted talk about whatever it is that we’re talking about. So because I’m just been looking at radio screen, I’m gonna say, um, we’ll talk about that bookshelf behind Graziella. So thank everyone for being here today. Um, we have built the perfect bookshelf for any office. This bookshelf, which was developed by, um, Dr Alvin Smith, um, really made it so it can fit in any area that you needed to fit. It actually adapts to the office to a closet to a bathroom. Really? Wherever you need this book shelf, it morphs into what you needed to be. Graziella, could you talk a little bit about the development of that? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:46.99] spk_4:
So you know, when we were conceiving of this perfect bookshelf, I think what we first asked was, you know, what is it that a bookshelf means to us through the journey of our life? You know, you start off as a young person, you are in your space. You’re looking at a blank wall, and that wall doesn’t mean anything to you. But if you fill it with something that can hold your treasures, your books, it facilitates the space of imagination and really opens up who you are as a person. So it really is more than a bookshelf. It’s a place for you to showcase the aspects of who you want to become through life and also your identity. So that’s kind of where we started. We want it to be exciting. We wanted people to say, That’s not a bookshelf. That’s me. And so that’s kind of what we wanted to bring to the creation of this. Tony, do you want to talk a little bit about kind of how you’ve seen people respond to this bookshelf?

[00:29:59.44] spk_3:
Well, I’m afraid we’re out of time. We Oh, no, I know that’s a violation. Um, yeah, we we brought this. You know, we brought this again as you were saying, Graziella to to be much more than just the physical object. And we’ve We’ve We’ve watched people interact with it. We’ve of course, we’ve surveyed them formally. We’ve actually been observing the way people use the bookshelf the way they interact with it. There’s the There’s the basket feature on the second shelf. That’s that’s pretty much open. That’s open. Anything you want it to be. You can put your junk in there. You can organize it carefully. Or you could put your knitting needles and and balls in there. We’ve seen that, too, of course. The top. We’ve seen people interacting, being more for organizational, since that’s the That’s the part that shows, even if it is in a closet like crystals, saying this could work in a closet as well as a wall. But if it isn’t a closet, you know the top shelf is what people see them first. So they we’ve seen people organized the top better. The middle has been more, um, more personal on. That’s been exciting to see how people have reacted to the different components that we engineered on a very personal, very personal creativity kind of levels.

[00:30:01.10] spk_2:
Yes, sin tony, all of your pictures of your bookshelf.

[00:30:09.40] spk_3:
Alright, Alright. So what? We were out Not no, no censorship building on what others contribute. Taking everything in What? You’re an

[00:30:16.79] spk_2:
expert in it, right? So speaking with confidence about whatever the topic is so right, if we were just in a room, a topic, we could have picked anything. And we are experts on that topic. So you’re speaking with confidence and and still building this together. Mm.

[00:30:36.84] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s leave it there. Do we do about that? Except do we pull everything out that we can about that exercise? Because I don’t want to do it for fun

[00:30:43.96] spk_2:
thing. The only other thing

[00:30:46.57] spk_4:
I’ll say is just opportunities to replace competition with trust Trust in celebration. I think that’s kind of the name of the game. Really helps to just celebrate what people are bringing to the table and use that to inspire better thing.

[00:31:18.14] spk_3:
And that trust to each of you said no said I didn’t. I wasn’t on the wasn’t on the hot spot for this. But you know, each of you lead with lead the next person with a question, your confidence that the person is going to take it on and is not gonna object or or fumble or, you know, but But it carried further. Okay. Excellent. Thank you. very much crystal ramps or chief administrative officer. National Council of Negro Women got CEO Jackson partner and CEO of Echoing Co. And both deeply involved with with the Washington Improv Theater. Thanks so much for being with me. Thank you.

[00:31:38.02] spk_4:
Thank you, Thank you. Thanks for Stoke tony.

[00:31:38.61] spk_3:
Thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC.

[00:33:10.18] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software, Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant non. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you. Um, thanks for being with the show and staying with it through Corona virus and recession and protests against racism. Um, I’m I wanted to keep producing the show. I mean, there’s no there’s no stopping the show. The show has got to go on, but, uh, all the more I think, you know, just because things have been so tumultuous since what, roughly march 23rd or call it mid march. Um, so much confusion change, uh, you know, new routines. The show has got to continue. It has got to be some things that we just can rely on. They’re just gonna be there. And non profit radio is one of them. And so I insist that, uh, not that not that I was thinking about postponing are going on hiatus. But it’s just three assure that Ah, some things remain unchanged. Remained constant. You can count on them, and non profit radio was one of them. And thank you for being consistent, loyal listening audience. Actually, it’s uptick ta little bit. It did like in April and may, you

[00:33:30.85] spk_3:
know, more people spending a lot more time at home, right? Doing everything at home

[00:34:10.00] spk_1:
from exercise to maybe more podcasts. So, um, thank you. So I’m I’m glad and gratified that, uh, audience hasn’t declined. You haven’t gone anywhere. The show still has value for you. That’s very gratifying for me. I thank you for sticking with the show. Still listening, and I’m just glad that you’re still getting good information from it. So thank you. That is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for tech policies with Karen Graham and Dan Getman.

[00:34:42.03] spk_3:
Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and D. C. That’s the 2020 non profit Technology Conference were sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. With me now are Karen Graham and Dan Getman. Karen is director of education and outreach at Tech Impact, and Dan is senior manager of donor relations for manna. Karen Dan. Welcome back, Teoh. Tony-martignetti non profit radio. Well, for you, Karen. Dan. Welcome.

[00:34:48.37] spk_6:
Uh, thank you.

[00:35:32.51] spk_3:
Glad to know that you’re each well and safe Dan in Philadelphia. Karen in Minneapolis. Good to know. I’m glad we could work this out. Your conference topic is establishing tech policies to protect your non profit can. You and I have talked about tech policies in the past and and other things that are, uh, when you were with idea where we’re on the surface boring. And you were happy to call them that, but nonetheless important to your non profit. So would you mind doing the same? Explaining the the importance to what could sound like something very dull?

[00:36:08.17] spk_6:
Sure. Well, I mean, regardless of what kind of situation we’re in, we all know that there are good people that make bad choices. And so having some policy guidelines to help people to anything twice about those choices, um, should provide some guidance for them, as is helpful but also having some clear consequences, I guess, in place or responses when people do make bad choices. That’s also important to know how you’re going to respond If somebody makes a mistake now, especially, I think nonprofits are feeling this in the right. Now, as we’re recording, we’re in the midst of the Corona virus outbreak and ah, lot of dumb profits have gone to remote work. And so they are, I think, thanking their lucky stars or they’re good judgment if they already have developed really good policies for remote work and use of personal devices and things like that. And if they haven’t done that, they’re scrambling right now to try to figure it out.

[00:36:35.50] spk_3:
What are some of those bad choices that you’re talking about?

[00:36:54.98] spk_6:
01 of the things that comes to mind immediately is ah, a kind of choice that will lead to a security vulnerability. Um, you know, just say, sharing data that is his private that contains personally identifiable information with people that really don’t need to have that information, um, downloading it onto a home computer, things like that, Like those kinds of choices can really make an organization vulnerable to that data getting into the wrong hands, Um, or to like, passwords and system access getting into the wrong hands. And I mean, I’m sure we’ve all seen the consequences of that. Um, I have some data on that. They’re the average cost of a data breach, according to a 2019 survey was almost $4 million for a data breach and on profit. They’re just as vulnerable to that, if not more so. Ah, compared to therefore profit piers.

[00:38:00.59] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Certainly we think about organizations in the health care’s our healthcare arena. But even outside health care, there are dates of birth, their credit card numbers. Um, other personally, you might have social security number for some reason. Um, it’s all that personally identifiable information. Oh,

[00:38:00.98] spk_6:
and all of that can compromise people’s privacy. And it also can make an organization really vulnerable to ransomware attacks where the hacker threatens to release that information to the public, or, um or misuse it in some way that can really destroy the organization’s reputation. You’re and be harmful to the people that they serve. So that’s something that that actually non profit are especially vulnerable to because of the kinds of information that they handle. And also because, unfortunately, many nonprofits have not invested in security to the level that they should.

[00:38:38.42] spk_3:
Yeah, all right, Dan, let’s bring you in your in your office. We hear a little background noise. That’s okay,

[00:38:44.71] spk_7:
all right,

[00:38:45.12] spk_3:
It’s not They’re not, I presume they’re not strangers walking through Karen’s home in Minneapolis. So it must be your office. That’s OK.

[00:38:54.15] spk_7:
That would be me. Yeah,

[00:39:05.63] spk_3:
that’s OK. Way have lives. It’s alright. It’s alright. Just, uh, letting people know Karen is secure. There’s nobody walking through her. Her family room, Dan. So manna has been working on ah, comprehensive tech policy or is finished. What? What’s your what’s manage role in in this?

[00:41:25.42] spk_7:
Sure. So, um, we put together ah, bunch of different policies last fall. Um, and I hesitate to say the word finished because they’re always evolving. We need to adapt what we do in the policies that reflect what we dio. Um as things change around us. Uh, for instance, um, we a lot of the policies that we instituted last fall were directed, uh or directly affected, I should say, are like the computers that we have here for years. We all used PCs and much the standard way that anybody else would, Um, And with the advent of cloud based systems like Azure and some other things that we work with tech impact to implement here, um, we were able to get on Ah, more secure, uh, server were able Teoh update a lot of the levels of encryption that we use all things going along with what Karen was talking about in response to not wanting to be vulnerable to attacks to ransom where, um, we deal with individuals who have really serious health concerns there, the client base to whom we deliver meals on a regular basis to and so we work with all kinds of personal information. We also have certainly as a non profit donors who have credit card information and other things that get stored within our systems. And so between medical records and all the things kept their in and credit card information for our donors, You know, we have a couple different avenues that, ah, potential threat, you know, might see if inviting. And so, um, as an organization that works with insurance companies, large insurance companies, we need to be as HIPPA compliant as any medical office would be. Doctor’s office, hospital system. Um and so we’ve gone through some work with, um, hip, a consultant. We’ve worked directly with Tech Impact, who also does our day to day tech support here to really, really develop well thought out policies as well as all the software sort of implementations that went along with it. So again, I hesitate to say that we’re finished because we’re always looking at ways to improve how tightened up weaken be, but, um, in terms of where we’re at today Ah, the large bulk of that was completed last fall.

[00:42:05.21] spk_3:
There’s something interesting you the director of our senior manager party. I just demoted you. Senior manager of donor relations. Not not I t, uh, that sound like the tech policy position at manner. But here you are.

[00:43:23.56] spk_7:
So it’s interesting. Yeah. Um, I think many non profit, uh, will probably understand. We use the phrase were a lot of hats, You know, that many nonprofits are smaller staffed. You know, we don’t have, uh, the budgetary capabilities Have an in house I t department. Um, and so for years, our office admin served in that role Still doesn’t in many cases, if your if your outlook isn’t working, if your internet’s down, that’s what you go to. But, um, as we were growing these contract relationships and learning that there were different levels of security that we could, you know, reach for, um we needed somebody in house who had both a cursory understanding of the tech side of things and also enough understanding and ability to work with our nutrition team Teoh, to sort of understand the HIPPA ramifications of it all. Um, and it just so happened that that role probably would have fallen to the office admin Who does does a lot of the other day to day stuff. However, uh, he went out on medical leave, and so I was sort of tasked with this being the next in line in terms of my, uh, computer savvy, I guess

[00:43:24.72] spk_4:
we can

[00:43:24.97] spk_7:
call it her.

[00:43:26.44] spk_2:
So

[00:43:27.10] spk_7:
yeah, sort of a non profit thing that you know, you have a skill set that you’re able to help with. It may not be the thing I’m trained in or went to school for by any means, but I understand it may be better than the next person. And so that’s how that kind of works out

[00:44:17.99] spk_1:
understand Time for our last break turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know this turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field when there’s a time for you to be heard and to show your expertise. Turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. The red Turn hyphen two dot ceo We’ve got but loads more time for tech policies from 20 and TC. We

[00:44:33.13] spk_3:
could also consider good tech policy to be a part of donor relations. A part of stewardship. Actually, you’re part of what you’re doing. What I don’t mean you at manner. But part of what an organization is doing is protecting donor information from the can absolutely kinds of attacks that you and Karen both talking about So you could consider it on a new element of donor relations on goods

[00:44:49.79] spk_4:
store.

[00:44:50.21] spk_7:
And and part of it came back to, you know, in the donor relations side of things I oversee, uh, our database R c r m Here, um, and so again, understanding those systems, um, knowing that we treat and I’ve always treated all information confidentially, we don’t share lists with people. We don’t sell our donors information to anyone, Certainly whenever that with any client information. But from my sort of day to day rolls perspective, you know, we treat all that data, um, the same with the same level of integrity that we would with our client data on the other side

[00:45:24.94] spk_2:
of

[00:45:25.01] spk_7:
the building. And so, um, yeah, I think that’s kind of where that come from.

[00:45:29.65] spk_1:
Um,

[00:46:16.42] spk_6:
well, I’ve been kind of listening to what Dan saying, and even what I said when we opened up here, where we’re focusing on technology policies to reduce the organization’s risk or, you know, to kind of like looking at it from the perspective of where the bad things that could happen And how do we present those, and I just want o make the point that that’s not all that policies air for right there. Also, to give people guidance on positive things, they can dio um, So at my organization, just today we were talking about social media policy, and that’s something I’m sure that Dan probably deals with two. I’m doing donor management and fundraising and communication. Um, you know, you don’t want to just wag your finger at your staff and say you can’t do this. You can’t do that. Especially when it comes to social media. You want to give them some tools and some permission to be able to do things that are positive and are gonna benefit the organization. So that’s always an important thing. To remember with policy is to find that balance between the things that are restricting people from doing things that are really gonna be harmful and the things that are empowering them to do things that are gonna be helpful.

[00:46:45.78] spk_3:
Karen, what do you see? Some sometimes or most commonly I should say, as the impetus for, uh, revising oh, are creating when they don’t exist. It all a new a new set of tech policies.

[00:47:02.07] spk_6:
Probably two things, and one, unfortunately, is something bad happens. And then somebody says, Oh, we should have had a policy about this. You can imagine how those scenarios play out. But the other thing is sometimes, um, change in staff or a staff member who has listened to a podcast or, um, they have attended a conference or somehow been exposed to thes ideas and realized Oh, shoot. My organization doesn’t have the right policies in place. We should probably pay attention to this.

[00:47:32.98] spk_3:
Okay. And, uh, since you’re the consultant, why don’t you get us into this process now? How do we begin what we need to think about who? The stakeholders? I need to be involved before we can actually start typing policy or thinking about policy.

[00:48:49.83] spk_6:
Yeah, I can. I can share a few things with you. Um, first, the, um, there are six basic types of policies that most organizations should have, and so acceptable use is one. And what that means is it’s a guide to the overall use of your networks and technology equipment. That’s acceptable use policy. Um, 2nd 1 is security, and that’s really about protecting your data and your systems from from security breaches. Um, 3rd 1 is bring your own device policy, which has considerations for employees using personal devices to do their work, whether they’re in the workplace. Or, um, right now, a lot of people are using personal devices that they have at home toe access, corporate data, so to speak, or things that are owned by the non profit. So those were the 1st 3 and then the 4th 1 is an incident response and disaster recovery policy or in a plan, that’s what you need to do if something goes wrong. Um, 5th 1 is remote work kind of other considerations for employees who are working outside the office. Um, and then the final one is about social media and digital communication guidelines for what you can and should do and what’s restricted there.

[00:49:06.82] spk_3:
Okay, All right. So those there are sort of framework for our policy, those six types and and who should be involved in the process of creating these

[00:49:36.27] spk_6:
Well, I think that’s a great question to ask Dan because he had some experience with involving the right people in the organization. But my advice would be, um, you know, there’s a saying that a lot of advocacy organizations are organizing groups used nothing about us without us. And I think that applies here. Um, as well. It’s If a policy is going to affect someone, then that person should probably have a chance to give some input in the policy. Otherwise, you’re going to run into a lot of problems with people not following the policy, just working around it. And then it’s not doing anybody any good.

[00:49:56.47] spk_3:
Yeah, because then it’s a policy that was foisted on on users rather than them being part of the collaborative team that develops it,

[00:50:04.93] spk_6:
right? So certainly an executive director of board of directors in a non profit has some responsibility for reviewing policies and making sure that the right things are in place. But that’s not enough. It also has to involve the people that are covered by the policy.

[00:50:18.46] spk_3:
Yeah, the end users. How about you, Dan View? Did you follow Karen’s advice? Were you ah, compliant client? Or were you not?

[00:51:38.86] spk_7:
I’d like to think so. Um, I I was involved from day one in terms of this stuff. Ah, And to Karen’s point. Yeah, we had everyone that almost every level in some capacity involved in this process are when we first sat down, uh, with some of Karen’s coworkers Attack impact. You know, we had in the room myself the head of our nutrition department, our CEO, uh, the head of our policy on my policy, I mean, uh, lawmaking policy, But ahead of our policy, uh, department and a ZX Well, a czar PR person, our office admin. So I mean, it was kind of deer point. We had somebody from every aspect of the organization who would be either affected by the policies being put in place or be the person who is actually implementing the policies themselves on dhe. Then we brought in, which was a tremendous helping to be, quite honestly, couldn’t have done it without them. We brought in an outside consultant whose work eyes in the field in our key, specifically in ah, tech security and has a lot of background again dealing with the folks that we work with being medical record based. Um they came from ah background with ah consultant work dealing with hip a related issues specifically, and so we have them come in and do ah full risk assessment to go side by side with the risk assessment that tech impact did. Um and we had a really nice look at, uh what what policies do we have? What policies do we need and what things are already in place? And where can we, you know, make some tweaks to get better? And so it really was very collaborative effort, both internally and in terms of the two external groups that

[00:52:18.51] spk_4:
we worked

[00:52:18.92] spk_7:
with. But we needed every voice in that room

[00:52:24.75] spk_3:
Any difficulty, Dan getting buy in from leadership t this for this project?

[00:53:03.47] spk_7:
So no, we’re fortunate, actually, that we have ah CEO who is one very progressive and and likes to be at the forefront of all aspects of, you know, our business. Eso that includes technology again. We’ve always we’ve been around 30 years, so dealing with our client records and the hip related issues. There has always been something that mattered to us. Um and so this was seen as an opportunity to improve upon efforts that were already making It was not seen internally as Hey, this is a bad thing in the world. We all got to go through this process to fix something. It was really more, um we’re doing a good job, but we can do better than what we’re doing, and we’re gonna strive to do better than what we’re doing. And so our CEO didn’t require any real pushing. She was actually the one pushing, pushing all of us.

[00:53:57.44] spk_3:
OK, OK, Karen, we don’t have time to dio in depth on all the six different policies that you that you mentioned. But since we’re in a time now, when a lot of people are using their own personal devices, why don’t we focus on that policy? The personal use of devices for work? What I you know, I defer to you. How do we like what questions should we be asking or what policies should we have in place? What’s the best way to approach that one?

[00:55:44.69] spk_6:
Sure. Um, here’s some some of the questions you could think about for that, um, one is, um usually, organizations start with who is allowed to use those devices and in the situation we find ourselves in right now, I think it’s almost everyone has allowed to use personal devices, but maybe not. I mean, maybe if you’re a non profit that is allowing people to work from home either indefinitely or just for a defined period of time. Maybe you want them to Onley be allowed to do their work on ah organization issued device. Maybe you will provide them with a laptop or a tablet or whatever it is to take home with them, and they’re only going to do it there. And then you know it’s important than to issue some guidelines that let them know your home computer is off limits for conducting your work. So that’s an example. But then it’s not just computers. What about their camera? You know, if they’re doing videoconferencing, if it doesn’t have a built in camera, can they use their own? Or do they have to get one from the organization? What about a headset? What about like all that extra stuff? And then, if they are using their own devices, what kind of support do you offer for that? If something breaks, you fix it. If they have a problem with their settings on the computer, are you responsible as an organization for helping them with that? Um, what about like antivirus software on their home computer. Are you now going to pay for the cost of that? Or are you gonna pay for the cost of their cellphone, which they’re now using to take calls? Because the office phone is being forwarded to their cell phone. So there’s a lot of a lot of different issues there. Um, 11 more thing that we find, especially with mobile devices, is like, What kind of encryption do you and require, um, and locks and authentication and, like different kinds of security measures that can be installed on a mobile device? Um, it’s not necessarily a case where more is better. You have to find the right balance between convenience and security there.

[00:56:11.33] spk_3:
What about use of other people’s use of the of that same equipment, you know, when they’re home? If is that a family laptop that the person is using for work and then night their kids do their homework on it? I

[00:57:01.27] spk_6:
mean, Well, yeah, I think that’s the reality for a lot of people right now. So, um, it’s I personally wouldn’t worry too much about ah criminal breaking into my home logging into my computer. Um, that has a weaker password at home than the computer that I used for work. Um, and you know, getting into my organizations, data or whatever. I just really don’t think the odds of that very high, but, um, but it’s more like, um, maybe through email, maybe my kids open a phishing email and they click on something. And then pretty soon, my computer’s infected on dhe. I’ve also got stuff stored on that computer that I don’t want to get into somebody else’s hands. So that’s where the vulnerability of shared devices probably is. Most important. I don’t know if you would agree with that, Dan, or if you’ve got through that with your organization

[00:57:11.55] spk_3:
damn before we before we. I do want to go to you immediately, Dan, but I want to make clear that we now know the password to Karen’s home computer is 12345

[00:59:56.18] spk_7:
Yeah, I think if the really important one and we did go through this in terms of a lot of the policies that we’re putting in place, we have ah mixed set of media for this organization, um, desktop and laptop, and for those with laptops taken, certainly take them out of the building, and so there’s no safeguards there needs to be in place. Um, but the one that we really found I don’t want to say a stumbling block, but it’s something that I think organisations should keep in mind when they’re when they’re thinking about this kind of stuff. So many of us now have smartphones, and they’re great and they can do all these different things. Um, the one thing that really got under a fair amount of people skin here was the restrictions that had to be put in place for, uh, one’s own mobile device. And specifically, what we dealt with was, uh in the case of our email client, um, outlook is great and can be controlled with a lot of the policies that we put in place with tech impact. However, uh, if you have an iPhone or an android and you do not have the outlook app if you just use the native mail app on your phone, um that is outside the scope and the control of a system like in June or Azure. And, uh so what we had issues with were people wanting Teoh, you know, use the app that they’ve been using for the last 10 years, Um, and having to switch to something that was considerably more restrictive. Um, and it’s one of those things that sort of the growing pains in this process. But ah was absolutely necessary for us to be ableto you know, rain in some of the control on the data that’s being used. Um, and to Karen’s point with, you know, kids clicking on an email, Um, you know, we have it set where, As an example, if I pull up an email on my phone, I can’t screenshot it. I can’t save whatever’s in it to my phone. I mean, we have everything as locked down beyond you can read it and reply to it, and that’s it. Um, but just just knowing that some of those those things they’re out there in terms of the restrictions in terms of the necessity to have them be protected. If I lost my phone and someone got into it, they could seemingly access information. I wouldn’t want people to see, you know, from a work standpoint. So I think those are things that we take for granted. Um, having these wonderful devices that we carry around every day, but they’re really, um they are portals to our jobs into our lives and security that needs to go with that is it can’t be understated. And that was definitely something that we hadn’t thought about quite honestly before.

[01:00:07.86] spk_4:
This all happened.

[01:00:16.07] spk_3:
Making compromises for company. Absolutely ization security. Karen, we’re gonna wrap up. Does this tech impact have any resource Is, um, better related to detect policies that that folks can access on the website?

[01:01:06.21] spk_6:
Of course, we dio with a lot. So I’m at Tech Impact out, or GE, we have a number of resource is about policies and security, which we’ve been touching on here, too, including free consultations for people who just have a question that they want to ask of a professional. You can request that on our website. Um so about that tech impact that or ge and then on ideal wear dot or ge, which is also a site that is heart of our organization. That’s a resource site. And so we have a policy workbook on there that will help you, like, step by step, develop each of the different policies that I mentioned earlier and also a number of other knowledge. Resource is, we’ve got a course right now to that. We just finished a live version of it and the recordings available at Ideal where DOT or GE, if people want to really take a deep dive into this

[01:01:20.01] spk_1:
outstanding thank you. And, uh, as former CEO of Idea where I know you’re well acquainted with the with the offerings there. That’s

[01:01:38.21] spk_3:
Karen Graham, director of education and outreach, a Tech Impact, and Dan Getman, senior manager of donor relations at Manna. Thanks to each of you for sharing thanks so much and, uh, and stay safe. And thanks to you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC

[01:02:21.65] spk_1:
next week. More from 20 NTC. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our

[01:03:00.45] spk_0:
creative producers Claire Meyer Huh Sam Liebowitz managed stream shows Social media is by serving Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy on this Music is by Scots with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for June 19, 2020: WOC & Life And Career Lessons

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[00:00:11.34] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit

[00:01:30.09] spk_2:
ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’ve suffered the effects of obliterating and daughter rightness if you inflame to me with the idea that you missed Today’s show woke W O C. Women of color in Fundraising and Philanthropy is a new online community. Founder Yolanda Johnson returns to explain what it’s all about and life and career lessons Alex Counts has over 30 years in social entrepreneurship. He returns with his latest book, Winning Doubt, Ask for More and 213 Other Life and career lessons for the mission driven Leader on tony Steak, too. Start the racism conversation were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and, by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. My pleasure to welcome back Yolanda F. Johnson.

[00:01:32.96] spk_4:
She is president of Y F J Consulting and founder of Woke women of color in fundraising and philanthropy. Ah, brand new site. Which is what we are membership community, that we’re here to talk about. Yolanda, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:47.84] spk_5:
Thank you for having me. I’m really not to be here.

[00:01:50.58] spk_2:
Absolutely pleasure. So there’s a lot of excitement. You are launching this new

[00:01:54.58] spk_4:
membership community. Woke women of color in fundraising and philanthropy. Um, Big launched June 30th. What is vocal about?

[00:02:47.34] spk_5:
Well was created Teoh support and celebrate and champion Women of Color and fundraising and philanthropy. It’s unique in the sense that it comes at the very intersection of fundraising and philanthropy to support both could be a professional, them both up areas of, um of the good work that’s being done in our society. So those who are raising the funds, those who are giving the funds and how just toe help everyone be strong in the work that they’re doing. I am also for the first African American president of Women in Development, New York, and from that work where I launched a diversity and inclusion task force that reports coming out soon. By the way, ah, what we’ve been able to accomplish. I just started to realize that it was necessary to create the space. And over the past few days, uh, it’s that amazing feeling of validation that you get when you work so hard on something and put it out there and then suddenly just responses been overwhelmingly positive. And I’m really grateful for that. And I know for sure that it was necessary to create the space.

[00:03:22.64] spk_4:
Yeah, awesome. I want O for the first time and I’ll try to remember Say it again before we close. Let listeners know you’ll find it at W O C. Hyphen f p dot or ge right?

[00:03:22.94] spk_2:
Come dot com dot com. Okay, scratch

[00:03:25.94] spk_4:
with the scratch with the lackluster host Just said wsoc hyphen. F p dot com. Yeah, what can members expect from the community? What what’s it all about?

[00:05:18.84] spk_5:
It is about again back to that mission statement. So we’re providing high quality content from women of color for women of color who have accomplished so much just inspiring and imparting all of that sage advice and knowledge. Financial literacy is another big component of woke, because I think that’s important for both the fund raiser who is a professional, Um all those who could be underpaid as well because we’re going to talk about pay equity. Um, and then also for the philanthropists, because we want to talk about building wealth and the definition of what a philanthropist is, uh, people, a lot of women of color, especially because of some of the religious background on bonds. You know, there’s a lot of money that’s given from their annual income to maybe religious institutions. And sometimes, you know, we may not necessarily see ourselves as philanthropic, but we are so just toe disperse some of the the myths about what a philanthropist is and who’s a philanthropist on and for those who really are in the philanthropic sphere toe focus on that wealth building and for those who are on the fundraising side to really help them, Teoh navigate endemic first and foremost and then move their careers forward. So we’ve got programming never take to have in person. Evans will have those right now. We’ll have lots of virtual offerings, discounts, Teoh, exclusive discounts to brands, partner brands, Um, and in the future, we’re gonna have a mentor match program and also one for executives to have accountability partners with each other. They may not need a mentor, but they want someone to talk to about certain things. We’re also offering online resource library. That’s gonna be jam packed with findings and reports. And publications are people of color and women of color. Uh, just trying to compile a ZX much as possible in one place in addition to regular career by something that are just helpful. There’ll be a lot of anti racism tools there as well. Um, so, you know, lots of amazing things in articles. Lots of content by experts with articles

[00:05:45.04] spk_4:
for women who joined before June 30th. There’s a special career consulting, uh, session that they can have with you, right?

[00:05:56.24] spk_5:
Yes, with me. Okay. So I’ll offer that to them if then joined by. This is our launch period. Right now, we that the soft launch last Thursday. We’re continuing this whole introductory period until we celebrate on June 30th and stuff you joined in that time, I would be happy to spend 1/2 hour with you to give you some career council, especially at a time such as this. It’s a really good time to take a step back and just assess your career and where you want to be next.

[00:07:14.84] spk_4:
All right. Cool. Uh, W o c hyphen f p dot com Now you and I arranged this all before the murder of George Floyd on ah, Memorial Day, May 25th that we’re recording now, June 9th. But it was like, 10 days or two weeks before George’s murder that that your you know, you and I said, we’re gonna talk and you tell me about woke now in the wake of what’s now 15 days off protests, um, conversations about racism running much deeper than law enforcement, you know, into housing and education and health care and all kinds of bad outcomes for people of color woke seems even more relevant now what you want toe talk to the with the greater relevance that you’ve now happened on because of because of that murder, Onda, all the all the talking and the protests that have that have ensued.

[00:07:27.34] spk_5:
Well, I will tell you that I personally I feel restless. I feel so restless right now because I feel that because of everything that’s transpired, we’re on the cusp of possible real change, like it really could happen this time if the right steps are taken that if the dialogue continues, you know apartheid ended about three decades ago. Now, this year, and the being that special about how they handle things is that they will not stop talking about it. The dialogue has always continued because on the dialogue ceases, so does the progress. And so, Whoa, I just say now, more than ever, Teoh to come together this time, especially during an election year, just to empower ourselves, to support, to champion, to inspire, to move women of color forward in these professions because from the philanthropic area, you know there will be a very interesting time. You know, people who put their dollars behind their beliefs in a whole different way. And other people who were allies and non people of color may be more willing to invest and to learn and to use that privilege to help the cause off for the inequity. It still exists for women of color,

[00:08:30.68] spk_8:
and that’s a

[00:08:58.54] spk_4:
president that’s essentially you have to have people who have the levers of power and privilege allied with you. All right, so woke will, in part you’ve got a lot planned, but sounds like, you know, be a platform for keeping that conversation going when the cameras have focused elsewhere. Uh, you know, the memory of George Floyd’s murder will continue, but the deeper conversations and work and journey around dismantling racism and white privilege and power structures, you know that has to continue for

[00:09:03.99] spk_5:
the past.

[00:09:04.99] spk_2:
I don’t know. Decades.

[00:09:16.74] spk_4:
No. After the George Floyd murder. And so I hope what becomes, ah, platform for continuing that that important conversation. Like I said after the cameras have have looked away. So good luck. Good luck with

[00:09:18.55] spk_5:
woke. You look at

[00:09:33.43] spk_4:
Beijing on you’re gonna have an Allied membership. I look forward to being an ally of woke, uh, it’s women of color in fundraising and philanthropy. Wfc woke w e hyphen f p dot com Yes. Good luck, Yolanda. Great luck,

[00:09:35.34] spk_5:
baby. And thank you so much. Thanks for your support.

[00:09:37.76] spk_4:
My pleasure. Absolutely.

[00:09:48.71] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. They can talk you through paycheck protection program. Loan forgiveness. Congress passed

[00:09:49.60] spk_4:
The P P. P Flexibility Act allows your or GE 24 weeks to spend money on forgivable expenses and increases the time to pay back what’s not forgivable

[00:10:59.24] spk_2:
it’s all explained at wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and Blawg. I’m very glad. Welcome back to the show Alex counts. He founded the Grameen Foundation and became its president and CEO. In 1997 he grew the foundation from its modest beginnings into a leading international humanitarian organization. Today, he’s an independent consultant to nonprofits. A professor at the School of Public Policy at the University of Maryland, College Park and then affiliated faculty of its Do Good Institute. He’s at Alex counts dot com and at Alex Counts, Alex counts. Welcome back to non profit radio. It’s great to be back. It’s a pleasure to have you. Good to see you, sir. Um, so you have this, Ah, very interesting new book. I’ll say it’s a very easy read. It’s very smooth. Read with 214 ideas that you’ve coalesce through the years. What made you sit down and collect

[00:11:58.57] spk_6:
all these? Well, you know it’s certain. Quit my career when I was having some enjoyment and success with mentoring a few young professionals in the non profit area. I figured how, how how could the things that I’ve learned often through terrible mistakes that taught me something. How could I scale it to more than a few people? I could mentor and I just started writing and I wrote 800 pages was all over the man, and one of the things I did was I just would sometimes break down 20 or 30 lessons that I was taught myself or someone taught me and it got to about 400 of them. And then with an editor, I boiled it down to the ones that were, you know, seemed to be the most relevant to the most people. That’s where I got 214. And when in doubt, ask firm or just is one of my mantra is and fundraising. So that was one of the lessons. And each lesson is described as you do so on just maybe three or four sentences. It’s a really just get to the heart of the lesson, not to adorn it with too many stories or details or footnotes or anything like that.

[00:12:05.35] spk_2:
Yeah, yeah, And there, uh, they’re categorized. The category is scattered throughout the book, so they’re not all in sections together. But you’ve got travel. You got bored. Management, fundraising, personal care. Wellness?

[00:12:20.11] spk_4:
Um, others. You got what I think. 88 or nine. Different

[00:12:25.83] spk_6:
category enactment. Public speaking.

[00:12:28.90] spk_2:
Okay, so I’m usually I take

[00:12:31.89] spk_4:
control because my show and I do whatever the hell I want on my show. But,

[00:12:35.06] spk_2:
uh, I’m turning around. I feel like, why don’t you kick us off? You You know, I have a bunch of I’d like to talk about, but, uh what what’s your favorite one or two? You know, you think tops

[00:13:37.83] spk_6:
Well, I mean, the way that I was able to, you know, I spent the first decade of my career doing a very extended a apprenticeship in Bangladesh with the future Nobel laureate Mohammad Yunus. And then I set myself up to running on profit, to advance his work and his ideas. And I wouldn’t have gotten very far if I hadn’t fairly quickly understood, changed my attitude. And my techniques are on fundraising. And so some of my favorite lessons here are run fundraising. How to see fundraising not as a zero sum transaction, but as a win win. And I talk about how I was able to talk George Soros out of $10 million in a way that, uh, you know, I I kind of just saw that this would be as much a win for him and his team as it was for me and Mohammed Yunus and very tactical things. I learned that if you’re gonna be a meeting with a major donor, um, you know, one of the people who taught me fundraising said you should be preparing from 4 to 8 hours for every meeting included, not including travel time, which I thought was initially absurd. What are you going to do for eight hours to prepare for a one hour meeting? But then I learned there’s actually a lot you can do, and the quality of those contacts improves dramatically. So it’s a lot of my favorite lessons, really, is how I built myself up from a reluctant fundraiser into a very aggressive And I would say, you know, successful fundraiser, which then allowed everything else. My people management skills, public speaking. You know, when you have resource is and you can attract really successful business people of foundations behind you, then everything else opens up.

[00:14:20.73] spk_2:
All right. Since you teased us on, we’ve got a good amount of time together. Take a take a little time. Tell that George Soros story.

[00:14:57.54] spk_6:
Sure. You know, I was I was just weeks into the growing foundation journey. But Mohammad Yunus sees you. He’s made a career out of asking people for big things. And so he asked me to raise $10 million for a project in Bangladesh that was end of being a huge success. But at that point, he needed, you know, you ate figure kind of money Teoh to move it forward. So I found myself sitting in front of our entire who is the newly appointed head of George Soros is fairly new foundation. And I sat with him and I explained the project, which I really didn’t know that well, but I just was, you know, kind of fake it till you make it, you know? Yeah,

[00:15:06.02] spk_4:
Or you took your own advice about spending 48 hours to prepare

[00:17:27.41] spk_6:
for. Yeah, I didn’t really I was I was just, you know, I read a little brief about it, and also, the Internet was still quite news. Like getting a whole briefing for Bangladesh would take, you know, 10 days and d h l and all that. I have that time. So anyway, I sat with him and I started just described the project and he was very impassive looking, and at one point he asked me something. He asked me how much money was needed. I’ve been really hadn’t divulged that yet. And I was terrified because I thought that to ask someone for 10 million in the first meeting my broach, some philanthropic etiquette that I barely understood and that he might call security on me and I was just terrified. And so I every bone in my body wanted to answer him in a kind of very hesitant way, almost apologizing for such a such an aggressive ask and some part of me I wasn’t get a good fundraiser in the preparation everything, but I just I followed my instincts, and I just answer his question as simply as possible. It said $10.6 million he wrote it down, asked me a few more questions left, left the room, said, I don’t think George is gonna go for this, but I’ll tell him about it anyway. So he’s setting expectations. Game of philanthropy we know so well and then and then fast forward a year. We got our 10 million. His wife was the vice chair of my board. Aryan Iris wife. They began making a, uh, a kn annual donation of £10.5000 dollars, which George Stars triple matched. And honestly, if I had one of my lessons in the book is I never asked for money, apologetically or hesitantly. If you’re doing that, there’s some. Go back and do some work on who you’re asking for, what and why. Because otherwise, if you’re coming from a place where I’m asking for money to do something good in the world that I think is going to serve the donor to, So why would I be apologetic or hesitant about the amount or any aspect of it so on and so that you know, that huge fundraising win early in my career on getting the other you know, things of their personal support are you and you, Yvette Dyer. You just propelled us in a big direction at night, and I maintained tony that if I had answered his question about how much I meant how much we wanted, you know, in a hesitant or apologetic way, none of those results happen. Dismissed is an amateur who doesn’t really even believe in what I’m asking for and I never hear from him again.

[00:17:55.72] spk_2:
That’s the key right there. If you come across is not having full faith and confidence in your own your own. Ask your own program that you’re seeking money for and what kind of faith and confidence so you’re gonna get from from outsiders were looking in and no considerably less about it than you do expert on it. And you’re not confident. What do you gonna get back, what you gonna get from others?

[00:18:26.67] spk_6:
And and that hesitancy, I think, comes from a lot of people feel that fundraising is this kind of zero sum transaction where I’m trying to manipulate you into losing, giving me money or on, and yet it doesn’t all have to be that way. That’s that’s what I learned. But this is why so many volunteers over the years have told me is that I will do anything to support your organization, anything at all. Except please don’t ask me to fundraise. It’s rooted in that idea that I need to kind of manipulate someone to lose a transaction rather than to enter into a partnership with me where both parties come out ahead.

[00:18:34.44] spk_2:
What else? Um, keep it to you. What else? Around fundraising. Some of your 214 ideas. What else?

[00:19:27.68] spk_6:
One of the things that you know. I start by really good fundraiser Cedric Richmond, who I met through my board, share One of the things he just explained to me that we went through a major gift boot camp, and and he wasn’t big into doing simulate missions, but occasionally he would. But he put himself in the in the hot seat as the fundraiser where they learn when you ask someone for money. Yeah, and do it directly. Ask someone for a specific purpose in a specific amount. Don’t beat around the bush, and then you’re the one thing you have to do at that point is shut up. Is that Let them speak and maybe they’re gonna need 10 seconds to think about it. But to try to fill that awkward, what might feel like an awkward silence with some sort of nattering whatever your again, that’s another way of undercutting your ask on dso. So that was the on in a solicitation meeting I usually make me ask with the specific dollar amount in the 1st 10 to 15 minutes of the meeting, and then you just when you made the ask, it’s their turn, and they could say Yes, no, maybe ask questions, but give them that moment. Don’t feel like a silence is something to be avoided. It’s You got to give them time to think cause you’ve made a serious request of them and they mean you think before they make a serious response

[00:19:59.47] spk_2:
in that same sort of vein. I don’t know if you have this categorised under fundraising, but you like to spend, uh, spend time, you say, at least every three weeks with your major donors.

[00:21:32.60] spk_6:
Well, listen, people, um, people who could be a major donors and that and that’s the definition of that varies by organization. But where means organization? You have to know that there are other organizations after their money all the time knocking on their door, and some of them will tell them that they do what you do, what your non profit does. They just do it better. Um, And so, by taking donors for granted, which is one of the major kind of pitfalls of fundraising where you made an annual donation that you’re like, Let’s just leave him alone because something can go wrong. But when you when you let you know more than 34 weeks go by without hearing from, you know, they start to feel taken for granted and in many cases, other nonprofits air beating on their doors, saying that they’re more responsive, better, you know, better run, and you’re slowly going to lose them so it doesn’t have to. You know what you do to contact them every three weeks or have someone another board member do it for, Say, it should be tailored to that donors preferences and how they like to communicate. But, boy, you know, a little iron rule that one fundraising workshop told me is, don’t the three week rule. Don’t let three weeks go by without a donor hearing from you in some way. I adopted that, and I’m very few cases where I’ve regretted that people, people feel like you’re important to them. They’re important to you, and you’re always gonna there was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not be taken for granted.

[00:22:01.34] spk_2:
that could be a simple is leaving a message. Yeah, I was dropping an email thinking about U S. So a bit of news made me think about you, whether it’s related to your organization or not. You know, it’s just simple, you know, just courtesy and relationships. Yeah, it’s just I hadn’t seen it, you know, every three weeks or so, but, uh, yeah, for your major donors, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. These people are investors with you, Uh, you want to keep them, you want to keep them close, and you want to know that you want them to know that you’re thinking about them. It’s more than just a transaction for

[00:22:08.84] spk_6:
you. That’s right. There is. When my borders said that, You know, I like nonprofits that don’t regard me as an a t. M. And they realized that I have I have a brain on dhe feelings and connections their assets as long as well, in addition to my bank account. And yes, I think some contacts could be very slight. You know, we had a success here. I wanted to share with you, especially if it’s personalized in some way. I know you have a particular interest in our work in the Philippines, so I wanted to share this other times you should be more substantive, and I find one of the things that builds bridges with donor many donors the most is to ask them for advice on things that you’re struggling with. And you don’t have to do it in a way that your seeding, the decision making to them. That’s when a lot of non profit leaders feel. I just want your view and get in the end. I’m gonna make the decision, but you may be able to help me think it through. You may have faced a similar issue in another non profit. That you were involved in a war in your business on DSO asked him for advice. It shows humility. It shows respect for what they know on it just draws them in closer

[00:23:13.10] spk_2:
to your mission. What about you have advice around responding to your critics, and I think a corollary to that is everybody has critics. It’s OK. It’s OK to have critics.

[00:23:21.97] spk_4:
If you’re making an impact, you’re gonna offend some people or but bother. However you want a category call it, but, you know, piss some people off, whatever it is responding, responding to critics.

[00:24:56.26] spk_6:
Well, there either. Couple of related things here. I’m not sure exactly what you’re referring to, but they’re all I. One of my rules in this 214 is is don’t be afraid to make a few enemies, you know, Don’t rob yourself of spontaneity trying to everyone. And I would if I were to write the book again, I would almost amend that. It’s all I would say Talk about counterintuitive. It’s OK to burn a few bridges if you’re doing it truly out of on an issue of principle. I once was forced to resign from aboard because I stood up for good governance principles. On the way out, I sent a letter to some of the major donors saying that I think you should look into this and I didn’t make many friends on the people left on the board. But I checked back two years. They actually fixed a lot of they’re not all that’s a lot of their board dysfunction. So with the hand I somebody Sadio, I engaged. I was encouraged people to engage in the big debates in their fields and to do it not too carefully to do it in a pretty outspoken way once they have a point of view, even if it’s a minority point of view and then interview questions. This was I learned from a head of HR Grameen Foundation. One of the great question interview questions I’ve learned is I asked people, Teoh take kind of two to think about who they worked with. Are there kind of critics on dhe? Not the ones that were hopelessly biased against them, for some reason. But the thoughtful critics and what they have to say and what do you have to stay back to them,

[00:25:16.91] spk_2:
right? Right. Yeah, that’s one of yours. Um, let’s talk about some of your, uh, some of your self self care self care

[00:25:18.72] spk_4:
ideas. What do you like there? What’s

[00:27:28.84] spk_6:
your guy? I began my my book that came out before this one with the story of, ah, iconic homeless activists who I talked to for the one and only time in my life. And then he killed himself like the following day. And it was front page news guy by the name Mitch Snider. And and yet a decade later. Here I was three years into my dream job and I was gaining weight. I was irritable with everyone. I was I was on that same slippery slope to self destruction, and I I just said I got to turn this around. I’m not, uh, not that good at what I do that if I I’m I’m unwell that I can really perform the way I need to. So I do. You know, all sorts of things, but probably about 1/4 of the lessons this book around self care in one way or another. And it sounds indulging to some non profit leaders, one of which just became maniacal about about aerobic exercise because it relaxed me and relieved my stress and anxiety. And when I’m anxious, I make decisions that are really often quite poor, so exercise helps me be less anxious. Uh, on the other hand, I learned a quirky, funny thing that I kind of tap into a more more playful, less self important part of myself. If I’m always doing something in, uh, that I’m a novice at that. I’m a beginner at that. I’m bad at news. Someone said something to be once recently said, having the courage to suck it something, Um, and a lot of us as we get into our forties, fifties and sixties, we do very little that we’re not silly, semi competent at, because you make a says look foolish in I just found that to be such a gift. Teoh do that. And it just it makes that self importance that self kind of complacency. But you get it just it brings it out of your whole life because you’re just in that one domain. You’re a novice, and you just can’t help but laugh at yourself and not take yourself so seriously. So right now I was cooking was my was the thing I was a novice at. But I’ve actually got, like to an intermediate cook in the last, you know, maybe 6 to 12 months. So the latest thing I picked up is meditation, and I’m terrible at it. Oh, horrible, Andi. I may try to meditate after we do this show, and I just in my mind will launder, but you know, But it it just reminds me that there’s lots of things I have to learn.

[00:27:42.74] spk_2:
There’s plenty to suck out, we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali, is made

[00:27:59.64] spk_4:
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[00:28:09.74] spk_2:
free 60 day trial on a listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take two Start

[00:28:40.99] spk_4:
the racism conversation. That’s our latest special episode. My guest is Case Suarez, executive director of Equity in the Center. This is one of those moments where you can be the change you wish to see in the world. Ending institutional racism can start with each of us. If we’re each willing to take the needed action, you can start in your office by opening the conversation about race. This show will help you. It’s out in podcast. If you prefer video, it’s on my YouTube channel in the racism and white privilege playlist

[00:28:51.85] spk_2:
that is Tony’s Take two. Let’s go back to life and career lessons with Alex Counts. We’re talking about his book winning doubt. Ask

[00:28:58.36] spk_4:
for More and 213 other life and career lessons for the mission driven leader.

[00:29:05.64] spk_2:
What was there something in particular that triggered you at that time of life? To realize that

[00:29:13.96] spk_4:
you are on a downward trajectory? You said you were gaining weight and stressed and not eating right. Was there Was there an episode that made you realize it wasn’t

[00:31:06.62] spk_6:
sustainable? Yeah, um, there was It was It was it was just kind of a slow downward trajectory. In many ways, on dso is having some professional success, but I was deeply unhappy again, gaining weight £30 heavier than I am today, irritable with my wife curable with my staff. They knew it. They were complaining to the board. And then just one time, we had a We had a a Christmas party, and for some reason, and it was just they they some someone with the contract with the restaurant that hosted it. We paid way too much for the bar bill. Um, and so we like got a huge amount of liquor that we’ve already paid for. Um, at least you know, And so I we just all started drinking. And for the one the only times 1000 college, I actually ended up that night basically getting sick from drinking too much. And one of the people most admiring the world happen to be staying with us that night. You didn’t come to the party, but we met up with him. I was so ashamed. T see me like that and I just said something’s gotta change on When I was in a gym a few weeks later, I weighed myself. I saw a number I’d never seen before. I’m like, this is we’re gonna change this and then it I wish I could tell you and your listeners that it was, you know, one magic idea that changed me. But it was just literally hundreds of things that I started experiment with to make sure that every year I was a little bit healthier mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. That I was the year before and the ones that worked I kept doing. And the ones that didn’t I didn’t do. But it was. I wasn’t willing to follow that non profit strapping him works. I saw her. I was going following perhaps Mitch Snider. Sadly, I didn’t want to go. That it was almost my personal on wellness was a badge of honor. Is a non profit leader when it’s for so many. I said, I’m getting off that treadmill and I’m just gonna try new stuff and just keep doing the stuff that works. Even if I’m a little not is prepared for a meeting, even if I’m not as prepared for a board meeting, that’s a cost. If this is a marathon, not a sprint, that’s a cost that could bear.

[00:32:05.44] spk_2:
You mentioned may be sacrificing on an hour of sleep. You know, to exercise that Maybe you mentioned that one of your travel tips something, but you know, it’s it’s This is not at all self indulgent, you know, there it’s wrongheaded thinking to be wearing your self sacrifice as a badge of honor. The way you say it, you if you don’t, you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of anybody else. Whether it’s a spouse, your staff, your organization, you have to take care of yourself. You have to love yourself enough to care for and love others, whether those people or institutions. Otherwise, you don’t you don’t have it in you. If you don’t have an interview for yourself, you’re not gonna find it for others?

[00:32:17.89] spk_6:
No, but there. But there is this. I mean, the some of the dysfunction of the non profit leadership culture that you know I still get sucked into on occasion is, you know, people say, Well, I’ve been taking a vacation six months. I haven’t taken a vacation in two years. That’s how dedicated I am Or don’t

[00:32:26.79] spk_2:
blame. May I hear? You know that’s not my fault,

[00:32:47.81] spk_6:
right? And, you know, and so different strokes for different folks. But, you know, I always When I was running Grameen Foundation, I worked. I worked plenty hard, but I’m rarely carried over a vacation day from one year the next cause I used it all up. I had a blast. I went down to Qs Florida, where I have a lot of friends and just would party like I was, you know, you know, 25 years old, and then I’d come back and refreshed and that’s indulgent than you know. So be it. But it helped keep me help keep my kind of equanimity through some very tough times because I had that I gave myself permission to enjoy things like that

[00:33:08.90] spk_2:
you mentioned in the book that Key West Florida is a very special place for you. Ah, place where you can act differently. Then you need to act. And the other 90 98% of your time,

[00:33:58.50] spk_6:
I kind of slipped into a different persona. I mean, I don’t hide what I do, but a lot of people that know me there just know me as someone who is a kind of a group B for some of the local bands there. And and you know, when I get out, get out on the dance floor, kind of make a fool of myself, You know, if the slightest provocation and, uh on all and you know, if they and many of them I’ve known them for years, they never asked me what I did, or if they did, they didn’t understand it. They just never asked again. So I get to slip into the different persona and on have some deep friendships that are based on what my my professional accomplishments were failing or training. It’s just a human being, and, uh, who just enjoys that on it was just, you know, is a particularly for a 10 year period, very intense, work wise that having that outlet was so important and that the things going back to the thing about being a novice, it’s something I got so entranced by one band that I volunteered to be their fan club manager because they didn’t have didn’t have a fan club and I was so bad at it. I mean, I didn’t understand their genre of music, the music business. I mean, I was I was terrible, but I had a blast. It was so much fun. And I just you know, I’d be around musicians and there

[00:34:30.27] spk_2:
was something else something else for you to suck out. That’s right. That was

[00:34:53.14] spk_6:
the original one. It was it was in describing that to someone else that I kind of tripped upon that were generalized lesson there because I ultimately got good at being their fan club president. But I found it important to find something else that I was terrible at and joy didn’t want to be good at, and I’ve always you know, I’ve always had something that I’ve been doing to this. This is 12 years later, 13 years later,

[00:34:56.94] spk_2:
you still get the Key West every year. Do you treat yourself

[00:35:43.00] spk_6:
I do, I dio In fact, I was gonna do event for this book. Uh, when in doubt, ask for more and it got canceled because of Cove in 19 and it’s gonna be rescheduled, hopefully for December. But unfortunately, Key West is starting to suffer the effects of climate change. And otherwise I might be scheming to buy a place there. And that’s, Ah, an issue that I come to care about. They talked about in Key West. Ah, high tide flooding in a lot of places. And it’s like, you know, this is this Israel, folks, but I get down there at this point right 2 to 3 times a year, and I just I just love it on. I just love the kind of person I could become there. That that is just a lot less serious than the one that’s up here in the mid Atlantic.

[00:35:57.66] spk_2:
No, you also talk about in the book. You suggest learning a new language, every body. I don’t know. We just 10 5 or 10 or 15 years or something that you okay, something to indulge in, learn a skill and and be a novice at.

[00:37:06.00] spk_6:
That’s right. I mean, languages. So and it’s, you know, it’s especially when you to learn your first foreign language as I did in my twenties is is hard and humbling. But I mean it does so much re wires your brain. I think it puts you through the humbling process of being around fluent speakers when you’re not and you’re so self conscious and you bust through that and also languages. Such a such a gift to be brought up with English is the world’s business language is your native language. You don’t really have to learn, uh, foreign language, but if you do, it could be a huge built bridge builder with people from other cultures to feel forced to learn English. But for you to make the attempts to breach the language gap in the other direction by so many Bangladeshis were just stunned that I put in that effort to learn Bengali on dyuh, and it was because again I cared. I wanted to. I want to make them comfortable in our communications on. I put a hell of a lot of work into it, and the trust that was came out of that was huge. Let’s

[00:37:17.83] spk_2:
talk about some of your travel tips. I like, uh, like a bunch of those. Um, make sure you exercise. We talked about being indulgent to yourself while you’re traveling. Be a grateful tipper. You

[00:38:10.46] spk_6:
know, I early I was in my twenties and teens. I don’t know why. It’s not really how my father brought me up on my parents, but I was You know, I was always, uh, very frugal, you know, how little can I tip on? Guy was I was very frugal with praise of people. Afraid it makes them, you know, complacent. And I just learned that by being generous with people, the service industries, If I think you just feel better about yourself, you feel like a generous person. You feel like, and I just I swear that travel God’s pay you back. You know, if you tip on a trip, the likelihood that your plane is delayed coming back, I think, goes dramatically down. I can’t prove it. There’s there’s no logic to it. But just the travel gods are look out for you. If you just push yourself to be at least is generous if not more than local custom dictates. Also,

[00:39:22.77] spk_2:
when you run into trouble. You know, if your if your flight is canceled delayed, you’ve lost. You missed our connection. You know, whatever it is, if you if you approach the customer service person, whether it’s on the phone or you’re standing in a line, Actually, I like to stand online and call at the same time. So if I get one of the other windows lines along, But, um, you know, if you approach them humanely, you know, not pissed off. I think you get I think you get a better outcome. You know, like you. You know, I can’t prove it. But there are. There are often things that people on the other other side of that on the customer service side that can do for you that they may not They’re not gonna be so willing to do if you’re not thoughtful and kind. And, you know, they know that you’re I know you’re upset, but you know, they’ve got a job to do, too, and they’re trying to help, you know, they want they don’t want the 400 people calling you from the flight that just got just got canceled. No. Didn’t want it any more than you do? If you approach them humanely, I think you get a better result. Plus, you’re just going to feel better about yourself. After the transaction is over, we’re going up the phone. You’re not gonna feel like the asshole. But aside from that I think you get I think you get more out

[00:39:24.67] spk_4:
of people when you approach them. You know, with honey rather than vinegar that old that old

[00:39:33.71] spk_6:
so and I always have just found. You know, if if you want something from an airline or ah, or rental car agency or whatever a hotel you know without any sense of entitlement, ask him for it. Working in a nice way and you’ll be surprised how often they’ll give it to you or looking you something like it. Now, if you ask with that sense of, you know, anger, entitlement will, probably even if they can give it to you, they might not

[00:40:44.81] spk_2:
feel that they have a lot of discretion about things like that. Yes, yes. And they’ll exercise their discretion in your favor. If you’re I think if you’re just a thoughtful, decent person, I like there’s something I have a little thing I make a point of saying hello to the bathroom attendants in airports because everybody, everybody in an airport wants to be somewhere else. They’re either their toe leave or they’ve just arrived and they got to get to their hotel and they’re worried about where they’re going to get. Get a car. We’re gonna make the meeting on time. They just arrived or they’re gonna make their flight. Is the flight delayed? If they’re leaving that looking, everybody in an airport wants to be somewhere else. So I I just have recognized that probably the least appreciated people are bathroom attendants in airports. So I always make an effort. I tip them if there If there’s a typical tight, you know, sometimes there is a glass there or something, and, uh and I But I will at least always say hello. Thank you. You know, how are you? Have a good day?

[00:41:00.07] spk_6:
Well, acknowledging people’s existence while you’re traveling, which is something that falls by the wayside. Even people that begged for me. I don’t rarely give to beggars on the street, but almost always acknowledge their existence in the fact that they’ve asked me for something. I say, you know, sorry, I can’t today and kiss that human element. It takes a little effort, but I just think again the travel God’s just look out for you. If you do those those little things is you rush from place to place.

[00:41:23.66] spk_2:
You got some ideas about using sleeplessness on during travel to your advantage.

[00:42:12.30] spk_6:
Well, two things one is I used to in my twenties whenever I just had this. Like, I had this idea that if I lost the night of sleep, if I took a red eye, I was gonna be a wreck, and I just It was just all mental. It was like 80% mental. And so I just realized that you know every so often, if you do a red eye, if you don’t talk yourself into being a wreck, you won’t be. And I don’t do it two nights in a row on DSO sleeplessness When it’s just part of, um, just rushing around, if you don’t occasionally, I’ve done it even now in my fifties, and as long as I only do it once every month or two, it’s fine. I can function well if I just don’t get myself into that. But I also felt if your jet lag if you goto other continents, if I’m rolling around in bed at three AM, it’s like Forget it. I’m not sleeping tonight. Get some work done. Read a book. If it’s open, go to the gym on. Don’t just sit there, you know, kind of gnashing your teeth about nothing. Asleep used the time to do something productive.

[00:42:29.13] spk_2:
Time for our last break turn to

[00:42:59.20] spk_4:
communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know that turned to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard. So people know you’re a thought leader in your field and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for life and career lessons.

[00:43:03.40] spk_2:
Some of your board advice you talk about diversity board diversity. That’s obviously Ah, very rich topic in the U. S. Well in the world right now, but you But you talk about beyond just gender and race

[00:44:04.17] spk_6:
Well and as important as gender and race are and how you handle gender and racial diversity, is one of my friends said. You know, if you’re trying to diversify your board on those lines, you know one person is a token to people, is a kabbalah and three people is of a certain gender race. That’s when you get real representation. So you didn’t follow through. But one of the things I learned is this just, you know, is diversity in terms of age, in terms of industry, in terms of wealth, in terms of profession, in terms of work style. I found I was on a board where the people from the East Coast on the West Coast really operated differently. And and And the only way was gonna work is if they just accepted the fact that the West Coast folks kind of participated meetings a little differently. The East Coast folks. And that was okay, um, and, uh and so that’s diversity. Just I came to think of it in so many different dimension. It’s not just race and gender is as important as those are.

[00:44:21.53] spk_2:
And you want those different perspectives. Not everyone professions, you know, on account in is gonna look at the financials very differently than marketing. Ah, marketing professional

[00:44:47.18] spk_6:
But I have had many people say to me, You know, you need to have people, Whatever you need to have everyone having wealth over X on the boards, you just basically get you get a bunch of, you know, white man in their fifties and sixties for the most part, a few women equally wealthy on this. Okay, if you want to throw in one other person who takes all the other boxes and that’s where you get the tokenism, Yeah, I’m like, No, you need to have a certain number of people who have a certain wealth profile that can help you in that way. But, uh, but you also you mix it up with some people from the nonprofit sector, academia, government, um, other, you know, other professions. And it’s great to have a CFO of another non profit on your board. Who can demystify non profit fundraising to your board members from corporate America because they get totally confused and they don’t believe you if you say it. But if appear says that they believe it.

[00:45:34.49] spk_4:
Oh, interesting. Yeah, that’ll that’s right. I remember that That’ll save you always having toe hire an outside consultant to validate what you know to be true, but your board members are skeptical about. Yep.

[00:45:40.19] spk_2:
You have some advice around, Um, a dysfunctional boards. Well, myself enough time to cover.

[00:49:07.25] spk_6:
Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think that of the four words I’ve encounter, I’d say 70 80% of the U s or dysfunctional when 11 type of dysfunction another. And so if you have a dysfunctional board, you’re not alone. But the thing that I learned is is that just a lot of people look a dysfunctional board, let’s say they could hire is an executive director, and they and they say, first, I want to turn around this board, um, in 90 days and boards of directors do not. Groups of that size do not change their operating style in 90 days and you don’t even try. But if you really want to go for it, it can happen in 3 to 5 years, and I But then the other thing I say, if you want to get there in 3 to 5 years, the way a lot of executive director sabotage themselves, they have another rule, which is I practice this really micro so I’m gonna start really investing in my board members, treating them exceptionally well and having their journey to the organization be well curated. But I’ll do that when they deserve it when they start producing. Problem is, they’re never going to start producing unless I do that first, unless I start unless I treat them is the word I want them to become and I treat them is if they’re already that board and it’s not gonna happen overnight. But over a course of years, if you start treating them exception like their high performing board, they’ll become a high performing board. But it’s one of my mentors said. It’s it’s is one new member. It’s one good meeting. It’s one good agenda item a time you build it brick by brick on dhe. If you do it long enough, you build something special. But if you’re if you’re looking for a quick fix, don’t even bother. What’s the balkanized board? Well, some boards. I’d say this is a relatively benign dysfunction, but it can get it can become serious. Even that is, you have some people join the board to like look after their donation. Let’s say they’re putting in one million out of $6 million in the organization. They’re opening up a new branch of your homeless shelter or there have you bring your social innovation to Latin America has never been before, and the problem is now a donor who’s doing that has every right to as a donor. But if a donor sits on a board and expresses no interest or commitment to the other 5/6 of the organization that they’re not funding, they just go to sleep when they’re talking about anything other than what they’re interested in, um, venue. Have aboard were No. One on the board or at least some people on the board, and it tends to kind of aboards get constructed this way. It’s not just one person where no one is owning the totality of the organization and how all the pieces fit together because everyone is just focused on their peace. And I say that whenever brings one on the board, I said you can you could be focused on Lee. A slice of the organization is a donor or volunteer, but on the board to get your card punched. To do that, you need to buy into every last piece of the organization. Be curious about it. Look for ways to support it. Learn more about it. Otherwise, get aboard Isn’t the right place for you. If you’re just only interested in a part of the organization, Uh, wards can’t survive that way. If just maybe the board share and the CEO can see the whole picture and care about the whole picture. That board, it can kind of lumber along for a while, it going limp along and do OK, but when crisis strikes, then it’s then it could get very messy.

[00:49:09.95] spk_4:
They’re not working together. They’re working in their little Balkan

[00:49:15.49] spk_2:
states together. And you have a corollary to that, Which is that being on the board is not about loyalty.

[00:50:44.26] spk_6:
Well, right. I mean, I I served served on board that, uh where you know, when people would go around the room and introduced themselves into retreat, they would say that, You know, I’m I’m I’m loyal to, um you know, I’m loyal to the founder. I’m loyal to the CEO, pledged their loyalty, and I’m like, who is loyal to the mission of the organization. What happens when the founder of the CEO, go off the reservation and take the organization in a dangerous direction. You know, it sounds like you’re gonna side with them, not with the mission. And I had 11 board, one member on that board, who whenever anyone criticized the executive director, you could just set your watch by a millisecond after the person was done speaking, he would basically in a kind of a friendly way. And assertive wasn’t a mean way. But he would just with a laugh. You just say that idea is completely wrong. We don’t need that without even taking a second to kind of think about it. Yeah, is there some validity there? So if any board member is reflexively either attacking or defending a person or part of the organization without consideration, it’s really a political thing, and they’re not really trying toe. They’re not taking the mission to heart. They’re trying to express their loyalty to some thing that is, to me, subsidiary to the mission. You

[00:50:54.33] spk_2:
also have advice about spending time with board members extra time more than you think. You should extra time with board members that we talked about it for donors. But you say like spend 2 to 3 times the amount you think you should spend with board members with board members.

[00:52:53.14] spk_6:
Yeah, well, you know that the reality is tony, that I think a lot of people executive directors who are in your 95% probably because they didn’t have someone to mentor them, and I didn’t immediately either. You think of fundraising is a necessary evil and board management board. Lee is honest, a necessary evil on. Do you know you’re putting yourself where you’re kind of You’re feeling invulnerable, independent? Whether this person is they’re gonna write a check, you extend my contract. Eso you often do as little as possible and delegate where you can. And I said, No, you just need to turn the tables there on Make your board members feel special, have every contact they have of the organization be it will be a high quality contact, whether it’s me involved or someone else, so that they just feel good about their participation. They feel that they’re not being, you know, that dealing with them isn’t a necessary evil to be done every six months, but it’s something that nurturing their full commitment to the organization on that become a part of their life that they talk about, you know, throughout the rest of their life. This is one of most meaningful things I did, and that’s partly the nature of the work. And it’s partly the way they’re treated on DSO. So yeah, I’m always there. Just what’s the next thing that create? This board member experience of the organization is something deeply meaningful for them and that they want to do anything that they could help to support. And that takes a lot of thought. It takes effort. It takes being in front of them on. It also takes This is another lesson is when a mistake is made with the donor. So many people just blame the donor or the board member or just act as if it didn’t happen. And I just think it’s a great opportunity to humble yourself to show that you learned from it on. You can actually build a better relationship, but it takes time when a mistake is made, is they inevitably are Onda. And so I’ve had many such cases. I gala go completely south with top donors chairing it on. I thought they’d never talked to us again. But in fact, they end up giving 37 figure gifts after that, just because we showed that we cared about them and that we learned from our mistake and wouldn’t make it again.

[00:53:17.93] spk_2:
There’s something called the service recovery paradox. Do you know it?

[00:53:19.09] spk_6:
I’m not. I’m not heard about it.

[00:53:37.40] spk_2:
Is that people who have been wronged by an institution, whether it’s a non profit or a company and and feel that that wrong has been remedied, that they were heard that there was a solution putting place, that the solution was implemented? Those people will feel stronger closer to the institution than those who never felt a wrong against them.

[00:53:54.95] spk_6:
I know my experience bears that out, but it just I find so many people overworked executive directors. I don’t want to be a mode blaming them where they just think these, even if they see that the work, the potential of that, it just looks like more work. And frankly, right now, with Kobe 19 there’s so many stressed out executive directors that putting in that you know that playing the long game with the donor of board members seems like a luxury, but I think it’s I think it’s even more important than ever is as hard as that may be, toe to swallow for people that feel under a lot of pressure right now.

[00:54:17.14] spk_2:
Yeah, yeah, and at all

[00:54:18.79] spk_4:
times, not only not only in the midst of, ah, recession and a pandemic and a deep conversation about race at

[00:54:31.82] spk_2:
all times and these air not necessary evils spending time with donors and board members. We just have about a minute left or so and I want to. I want to finish with your suggestion that you be a lifelong learner.

[00:55:07.78] spk_6:
Well, I just again this this goes to the goes back to some of my lessons around being a novice around being curious rather than being someone who’s, you know, kind of self satisfied with. What they learn is is just, you know, as much as you know that’s relevant to well being or your profession or your non profit area. You know, if you get if you feel like you’ve learned enough, you learned all you need to know. Right now, you just need to go give speeches and write papers and lost people around, and you’re gonna lose something very important, Which is that curiosity? The humility on? I learned it partly from a guy who was a publisher of The Miami Herald, and he just I met him in his seventies that he was. He’d been reading a book a week for 30 years and you’re still doing it. When I ran into him, he was reading a book. He told me about this and he said, You know, your lifelong learning like David Lauren, 70 lord Enough. But when you lose that desire, learn and self improve and humble yourself and be a novice in in the area that I think you’re just your ability to be productive and effective goes, goes dramatically down.

[00:56:01.62] spk_2:
Alex Counts, author of the book. Just Get the Book. It’s not only an easy read, it’s a valuable read winning doubt. Ask for more and 213 other life and career lessons for the mission driven leader. Alex, Thank you very much. Thanks for sharing. Thank you, tony. Next week, More tech goodness from 20 and TC interviews. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar mapped in Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo.

[00:57:17.81] spk_1:
A creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. Miss Music is by Scots You with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great great stuff talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Special Episode: Starting The Racism Conversation

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Kay Suarez: Starting The Racism Conversation
The murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police on Memorial Day, May 25th, has incited 14 days of protests and calls for reform of structural racism. Racism and white privilege, after 401 years of it in the United States, exist not only in law enforcement, but all legal structures, education, healthcare, the economy—and nonprofits. What can we, the nonprofit community, do to be the change we want to see. How do we start the racism conversation in our offices? My guest is Kay Suarez, executive director of Equity in the Center.

 

 

 

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