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Gene Takagi: Nonprofits & CARES Act
The CARES Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the Act that nonprofits can take advantage of. Benefits for your org and your staff. And they’re pretty good. So you may want to apply. Plus, longer term relief for nonprofit fundraising. Gene Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.
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Transcript for 483a_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200404.mp3
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special short episode of non profit radio to meet the needs of nonprofits during the Corona virus pandemic. This is our fourth special episode. Non Profits and Cares Act. The Cares Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the act that nonprofits can’t take advantage of benefits for your organ and your staff, and they’re pretty good, so you may want to apply. Plus, there’s longer term relief for nonprofits. Non profit fundraising. Jean Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group Jean Welcome. How are you? [00:01:09.60] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you very much, tony, for allowing me to share information with your with your audience. [00:01:15.42] spk_3:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. I know you’ve been ah, believing it is my pleasure. You’ve been busy all week talking about the Cares Act, I’m sure. [00:01:26.18] spk_0:
Definitely everybody interested in in, uh, how nonprofits can take advantage and really thankful that there’s some advocacy groups out there that got nonprofits considered in these in these Lost? [00:02:11.24] spk_3:
Yeah, for sure. Explicitly in in some cases. So all your work this week has led you to this to this pinnacle non profit radio. So it’s all led up to here. So thank you for all that preparation that you’ve been doing toe to talk to our listeners. Um, is it is it best if we, uh, you want to start with an overview? I mean, I definitely want to get into the paycheck protection program and the economic injury disaster loans. Do you want to start a broader than that before we get in that specific? Well, [00:02:51.14] spk_0:
I’ll just mention that the Cares act is this $2.2 billion package. And, um, when provisions were put in for small businesses, it was really important. Thio note that nonprofits are out there who are also employers who are also desperate for assistance at this time. And thio have non profits put into provisions like the payroll protection program are really important. But this is, um, just part of the legislation that’s come down since the Corona virus pandemic has hit us and and our federal government has started paying attention to what needs our country’s having great now desperate needs in many cases. And there was a set of laws called the Families First Corona Virus Response Act. That duck with leaves a swell paid leaves by employees. And so that’s another component that I hope we get a chance to talk about in addition to the care, Zach. [00:03:19.34] spk_3:
Okay, Um, all right, so why don’t we? Why don’t we take care of that? What’s the what’s the the leave? The leave provisions? So the [00:04:46.65] spk_0:
leave provisions in basically apply to again small businesses, including non profits with less than 500 employees and provided for two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now, sick leave isn’t required to be federally from under federal law to be. I hate it. In many cases, some states do require it. But here is a federal law ah, that required now all small employers, including non profits, to provide two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now there are some exceptions that might be possible for employers that had less than 50 employees for undue hardship, Um, for really, really small organizations where that’s just not at all possible that that is a standard that they might be able to to meet. But generally this applies to everyone, and the amount of paid sick leave is at the employees regular rate up to $511 per day. So it’s captain a 10 days or 5100 and $10. Okay, um, and if it is to take care of ah, child or, you know because of the child is is the one who’s sick or the child is, uh, needs child care because their schools of clothes because of quarantine rules, then the amount would be the employees regular rate up to $200 per day. So not the full 511. But it would be. Actually, I’m sorry. The employers rate times 2/3 that 2/3 of the employers rate or a captain $200 per day for that 10 days. So that’s the first section required. Paid sickly. [00:05:05.28] spk_3:
Okay, where can we find this in writing somewhere? So because that’s a lot to digest. Yeah, it’s See this on the web. [00:05:36.24] spk_0:
So if you just Google families first Corona Virus Response Act, um, the National Council of non profit actually had a good site on that. So that maybe a place to look Okay, Cool. Uh, the other leave that they have is a 12 week of emergency family and medical leave, and basically it’s a 10 week add on to the two weeks that you originally had. But this is only for care of family members again. Child care. If there’s a sick child due to the Corona virus or their school got quarantined, and child care is required to be provided [00:05:50.87] spk_3:
that it is not to be child care, could it be care of someone else in the family who’s not a child? [00:05:56.64] spk_0:
It could be another dependent. I believe that that’s Ah provided a family member [00:06:02.02] spk_3:
dependent. Okay, but that wouldn’t be a parent then, unless the parent was independent. [00:06:38.48] spk_0:
I don’t know that that currents are included will have to wait to see if, if the regulation spell that out become. And that’s an additional 10 weeks and again to the to the 12 weeks that sorry to the two weeks that that’s in the original act. And that’s a 2/3 of each employee’s usual pay up to $200 per day. Now, this is a huge burden on employers, right? All of a sudden, if they hadn’t been required to pay leave before now they’re required to pay leave. And obviously, a lot of employers are gonna be cash strapped now if their businesses have closed and things so the these air not available if the workplace is completely closed down. Um, and the other thing to know that employers can recoup these costs through a payroll tax credit. So details kind of in the regulations or in some of the sites, including the National Council of non profit sites I mentioned. But employers can recoup these costs. Employees are getting paid sick leave under these provisions. So that was one of the immediate loss that came out [00:07:10.84] spk_3:
when you say the workplace must be closed. You mean the organization Shut down. You don’t mean the office closed, do you? Or do you? [00:07:18.60] spk_0:
If the office is closed and the employees are unable to perform their jobs from home, so if [00:07:38.18] spk_3:
and unable to be able to work from home Oh, correct. Okay. Okay. Because of the caregiving that they’re providing a correct. All right. Um, can we go to the to the S B a loans. Okay. Is that right? [00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s that’s one. Probably critical. [00:08:42.84] spk_3:
Okay, Yes. I want to make sure we exhausted the other. The other information that you had, I want to say just to get started. The S B a site s b a dot gov is very, very simple. I think I was able to understand it, Um s p a dot gov and then you’ll be looking at this basketball size picture of a Corona virus. You can’t possibly miss it on the site, and you just click in there and to learn more. And then you just scroll right down to Corona virus funding options. And then, ah, Pedro opens up with, ah, lot of what we will. Well, it’ll be. It’ll cover what? Gene and I are about to talk about the paycheck protection program. The e i D. L. Which is the economic interest, Economic injury, disaster loan. And then there’s a couple of others too, so it’s really very, very helpful, I think thea CSB a site s p a dot gov um Shall we start with the paycheck protection program gene that that’s also only for employers of 500 or fewer right employees. [00:09:31.68] spk_0:
Yeah, fewer than 500 employees, including non profit. So really a big point to add that nonprofits are eligible for this. Ah, and agreed that this is an important provision. $349 billion was dedicated towards this. And on the date that we’re recording this tony is the first day that the application theoretically was released. Um, but these loans are available by S from S P a lender’s ah, that would include most F d I C insured banks. But not all of these institutions are ready to implement this, even though the application theoretically came out today. And one of the concerns that everybody is having on day one is that the regulations just came out as an interim rule last night. [00:09:47.06] spk_3:
Yeah, so that just right, Just Thursday, just last night, something came out. Yeah, [00:11:04.31] spk_0:
And while the application and and the SP a site makes it look easy, there are a lot of unanswered questions or ambiguities, and that is making with lenders have have a problem. Ah t implement this. Some people are guessing all of the loans are going to run out on day one because $349 billion. Sounds like a lot. But if you say every small business in the country is eligible thio to take this in every small amount profit, there’s only so much that that money is going to last. And there’s a question about whether the lenders are going to prefer their own clients. So their existing clients that have loans with the organizations are they gonna prefer the larger clients because they value their business, for which, you know their banks are going to reach some sort of reward over time. Are they gonna value them ahead? Was a small non profit that’s coming in? So my best advice is to try to go in to your own bank, find out if they are an SP a lender, uh, and make your case to them as quickly as possible. I don’t know that everything will be depleted on day one. I’m That might be the worst case scenario, I believe while Spargo Bank has not started yet because of issues with implementation, So there are there are going to be problems getting this rolling, but once it rolls, the money’s not gonna last very long. So I would say to the extent you can I get your paperwork together very quickly. The SP A site lets you know kind of what type of paperwork is required for this, and there’s not a lot. It’s not like a traditional known as well, tony. I guess that’s maybe the first thing I [00:11:40.04] spk_3:
should be relaxed some of the some of the requirements and they’ve really streamlined the the application, especially for this. I know for myself, Um, well, we’ll get to the economic injury loan. But just from one day to the next the economic injury loan, the application went from like four different forms you had to fill out last Sunday night to Monday when it was just streamlined, like two or three. It was like there was three screens. You just had a pick selections and make a bunch of certifications, and you were done and it was much more burdensome just the day before. [00:12:15.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and these things have been changing on the Fly, the paycheck protection program. In the best scenario about this, that nonprofits need to know which. Maybe I shouldn’t have hidden the ball, hit [00:12:28.73] spk_3:
the ball, start figuring it out. That’s okay, [00:12:31.40] spk_6:
is [00:12:32.64] spk_0:
why it’s so great. If you can access, it is it’s alone. That’s forgivable. Meaning that it’s essentially a grant s. Oh, it’s a loan that you’re going to make. And then if you keep up your payroll force, um, you pretty much get to recoup all of it back. And that’s a huge thing, right? To be able to keep your work staff on so that that’s the big point. [00:13:23.89] spk_3:
And the details of that are in the, uh, in that on that s B a site that I, uh that I that I was suggesting people go to says, You know, you’re if you haven’t kept everybody, you have to rehire everybody, I think, by June 20th or June 30th of this year. But the details are on the SP, a site. It’s really it’s in plain language. It’s really pretty simple to understand what you’re committing to. But even if you know, even if you’re not able to keep up your workforce on and not have it converted to a grant, at least it is. It’s a very favorable [00:13:32.34] spk_7:
Hello, [00:13:33.34] spk_0:
right? It’s 0.5% less than 1/2 a percent [00:13:38.53] spk_3:
and deferred interest is deferred for the 1st 6 months. [00:13:41.41] spk_0:
Correct? And do on a two years. Right now, though, they’re very likely could be an extension. And we may see variations of this and hopefully, more appropriations of more money. Should they run out of this amount. I I’m pretty sure the federal government knows that this is still phase one. Ah, and they’re going to be additional phases necessary on an individual level as well as on on entity level. [00:14:15.84] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. Anything more you want to add about Thea about the PPP, The paycheck protection program [00:14:55.84] spk_0:
show? Sure. So let’s talk about what it what it what the loan is for Andi. That’s exactly what it refers to payroll to paying your payroll. But it also includes utilities interest on your mortgage, not the principal on your mortgage, but interest on your mortgage, uh, and rent. So you and utility so some some occupancy costs and employee costs. And generally the amount of the loan is going to be determined by 2.5 months, essentially 2.5 times the average totally monthly payroll costs based on ah, one year. I’m sorry. Based on the last year. A test period, right that times a 2.5 times monthly payroll costs. That’s something Thio think about as being a huge, huge help at this time. [00:15:24.31] spk_3:
That’s that’s 10 weeks worth of payroll, plus those of expenses that you mentioned interest on mortgages, utilities, et cetera, And [00:17:39.70] spk_0:
no collateral. No personal guarantee is not like other S b A loan. So, um, a CZ, long as you’re under 500 employees there, few other qualifications, some of them I’m not so happy about that. You know, if you if you’ve got a criminal record or anything yeah, an indictment, you don’t qualify for it. Um, not not even a conviction there, Justin Indictment. So it’s It’s interesting formulas that would come up with that. I’m sure there was, ah lot of haggling on the floor to get something up quickly, but that’s what we have that there are a lot of details in this one area of confusion that I mentioned tony in BET That’s maybe creating a little bit of headaches for for banks and lenders and also for organizations that are trying to share information about this, including May is what about independent contractor costs. So we talked about payroll and payroll. You know, from a legal accounting standpoint, we’re talking about employees, right? But what if what about the non profits that are paying people? Is independent contractors Ah, and my understanding. And based on the interim rule that came out last night from the S B A. That payroll costs do not include independent contractor costs. Although I’m seeing conflicting information from independent sector and the Council of Now, not the National Council of Nonprofits right now about that issue and partly because the application refers to do you have employees or independent contractors that are reported as 10 90 nines? That’s what the application says, which would lead you to to think that if you can have either or that there must be some benefit if you have independent contractors that you’re paying as well. But part of my rational, I’m thinking that the SP a interim rule is probably right on this issue is that independent contractors, even sole proprietorships, can apply for this loan forgivable loan program, the payroll protection program themselves, so they don’t have to rely on hiring entity to do it for them. They can apply for it directly. So we’re a little confusion. They’re not absolutely clear. I don’t think any of us can say with 100% that we know the truth. Oh, [00:18:14.34] spk_3:
so at this stage, are you best leaving independent contractors out of your calculation of payroll for purposes of of the PPP just so that you don’t, you know, muddy up your application with a possible problem that would that would hold it up and then knowing that maybe you can go back when you get further guidance? If you’re If you are using a lot of 10 99 contractors, I think this is gonna [00:18:15.17] spk_0:
be processed very quickly. And [00:18:18.14] spk_3:
you think they’re gonna get you think they’re gonna gloss over issues like this in the beginning and very possibly clean up later? [00:19:01.94] spk_0:
Yeah, very possibly. The problem with including the 10 99 contractors, Maybe Twofold. One is that if they weren’t intended to be included, will the government say that’s not gonna be forgivable? And is your budgeting based on you know, making these considering these grants rather than loans? And it very well could be that if you report independent contractors, they may just say No, this isn’t forgivable. The whole thing is alone. That’s one consideration. I don’t think as nonprofits think about this and end the limited amount of money that’s available. They shouldn’t count on this. They should definitely apply for it as quickly as possible. But they shouldn’t 100% count on it being available for them [00:19:17.72] spk_3:
available and forgivable and unforgivable. That’s Yeah, [00:19:21.63] spk_0:
that’s correct. That’s a really important. Okay, point. All [00:19:56.70] spk_3:
right, balance, balance these things as you’re doing your application. You know, maybe get advice from a board member. Certainly legal counsel, if you have that. But but don’t you know, I don’t think you should let these potential problems hang you up and not not participate yet. Get your application in. You know, you might decide not to include your 10 99 contractors. Maybe that’s a decision you make. But you get it in at least for your for your payroll, your payroll, folks, your employees so that you know you could be covered for 10 weeks of, uh, 10 weeks of payroll. I mean, that’s that’s valuable. You get the get the darn thing in, make a decision and get it in one way or the other. [00:20:22.40] spk_0:
Yeah, and have all the material available, including your independent contractor, information available. They’re asking for it in the application, so your bank will probably help determine whether that they’ll include that in the loan or not. Just bring it all in. Get your paperwork ready. I know everybody’s inundated with work that’s trying to keep things together. Leaders are, and this is worth the time. [00:20:27.87] spk_3:
Yeah, is 10 weeks of payroll Yes, it’s [00:20:30.10] spk_0:
time. It’s huge. So you’ve gotta put other things aside to get this done and get it done as early as possible because [00:20:37.09] spk_3:
of you. You’re talking about the money. All right, [00:20:39.48] spk_0:
get it, Get it ready early next week, if you can. [00:20:56.04] spk_3:
Let’s move to the ER the i d l. You know, I hate jargon wth the economic injury disaster loan. Um, this is this is different. This is this is other types of expenses, Gene. Yeah. So it’s [00:20:56.83] spk_0:
work. It’s a working capital loans essentially. So it could be used for payroll. But if you can’t apply for both in and put the same use for both, So if you ask for apparel protection program loan, you can also ask for an e idea alone for the same reason. But you could ask for a different reason for working capital in another other business costs that you’re gonna have. Um, and again, this is designed for small businesses and small nonprofits. But there’s only $10 billion that’s allocated here, So it’s a lot less than the other program. Yeah, but go ahead and apply for it as early as possible. [00:21:45.37] spk_3:
Now, this has a great feature. Ah, $10,000 advance. That’s an advance on the loan. And that could be forgivable, right? And that’s it. Get their inherent [00:21:52.04] spk_0:
right. Even if you get turned down. If you whether you get accepted or not, the $10,000 is years to keep. [00:21:55.25] spk_3:
Oh, it’s whether you get turned out. So even if you’re approved for the loan, the $10,000 advance is still forgivable. Is that right? [00:22:01.45] spk_0:
I I believe it needs not. It does not need to be repaid in either case. [00:22:49.34] spk_3:
Okay, okay. My understanding of it. And they’re saying that this is gonna hit your bank within 3 to 5 days of your application. Now, I already applied for my business more than three days ago and I haven’t gotten it. Hasn’t been quite been five business days. It’s been four on. I haven’t seen it yet. So don’t Don’t be wedded to the 3 to 5 days it’s gonna cause they do ask for your bank account. They ask for your account number, they ask for your routing number. Um, uh, so they are intending to deposit this $10,000 advance quickly, But you know, you may not get it within the 3 to 5 days, but it is forgivable and and it is an advance on the loan, so it comes fast, and then the loan consideration is a longer term process, right? So [00:23:38.35] spk_0:
it gets paid without them processing the loan at all. And you just get paid based on the application, which is fantastic, um, and, uh, again really something to take advantage of, but limited funds. So go in as early as possible. It’s great, tony, that you went in very early. People should should do that again early next week, and this is separate from the paycheck protection program. But if you do get accepted for the forgiveness of loan under the first act of paycheck protection Program, that we talked about that $10,000 under this sea idea will be counted against the cap on that. So just just note that you can’t double dip here. Okay? Okay, but the loan interest rate is 2.75%. Ah, and the maximum term is 30 years. It’s gonna be dependent upon your credit worthiness. So it follows more standard procedures and the paycheck protection lung, which again doesn’t matter what your credit is. Doesn’t matter if you have outstanding loans or not. The first, the 1st 1 that we talked about the forgivable loans disciplined [00:24:03.84] spk_7:
a [00:24:26.00] spk_3:
little tighter requirements. Lending requirements more more typical than then what? They waved for the payroll protection. Her act. Okay. Okay. Um, anything you want to add about economic injury, Disaster loan? The e i D. L again, it’s all this is all very well. Very clearly laid out. Big pictures on the S B, a dot gov website. Yes. [00:24:35.48] spk_0:
I guess I’ll just say that it’s available also for debt payment. So your your ongoing business expenses, including debt payment. [00:25:21.30] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, so we got some longer term relief. Uh, regarding the charitable income tax, the federal charitable income tax deduction that we, uh, you know, in the ER in the tax and, well, I don’t forget the formal name, Tax and Jobs Act. Ah, there was, uh, there was a reduction in the It took away an incentive for non itemizers to make charitable gif ts. And so And we’ve seen some hit there because the vast moon is that the vast majority the majority of people do not itemize their taxes. Uh, but we got some. We got some relief. So the [00:27:17.08] spk_0:
tax cuts and jobs act from Thank you your job back from a couple of years ago raised the standard deduction, almost doubling it. The impact of that is it left about 8% of the taxpayers itemizers, so it’s a very, very small portion that actually get the benefit of a charitable contribution deduction. Because the charitable contribution deduction is one of the itemized deductions that you get. So more than 90% of taxpayers get no tax benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction until this act until the cars that came into play. Now, this is only a one year provisions, but I’m hope it’s a precursor for a change in the law to allow for a universal deduction so that there’s more equity across every taxpayer for getting some sort of benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction. So now it looks like it’s on Lee applicable to those generally who are a little bit more wealthier than others, that that have the ability to itemize, taxes, their deductions and get a tax benefit from that and this above the line deduction. How accountants refer to it It’s for $300 so anybody who makes a contribution can get $300 off if it’s to a qualifying charity. And some of the big charities that do not qualify donor advised funds. That’s kind of an important want to note. So don’t advice funds typically used by a little bit more wealthier individual that would tend to itemize taxes their tax returns. But that will not qualify. And that helps to get the money into the stream of operating charities quicker than those that are sort of keeping funds in accounts for years without a that payment respect provisions. [00:28:33.24] spk_3:
I’m hoping that that $300 will increase in the future, but at least as you said, it’s a start. It’s It’s $300 up to $300 per per taxpayer. And it’s just for this year 2020 so that anyone itemizing or not, could get at least that much. $300 uh, removed from, you know, exempt from, um, you’re from your taxable income or, well, I’m getting into the weeds about how it’s calculated. Let’s not go there. You get it. You have a federal charitable income tax deduction, if you’re if you’re a non itemizers up to $300. So that’s something that when you when you are making your fundraising messaging again because we will get back to that, there will be times when will be the right time for you to talk about your needs and how your donors can help you fill. Those is maybe even these especially critical and unbudgeted needs. You can make it clear that, ah, that nine non itemizers among your donors can I get a federal income tax charitable deduction for up to $300. That may move some people. I [00:29:32.64] spk_0:
think there’s an op ed. I can’t remember if it was in the Chronicle of Philanthropy or not earlier this week. Tony, that talked about the need to give to smaller charities at this time. Those were the ones that are gonna be really struggling. And if you really value a small charity, this $300 deduction that you wouldn’t have received before may be just what, you know, tip some people over to helping the small charities. And I’m hoping that that’s that’s true. I’m not sure what type of impact this will have for most people who are probably very fearful right now about where their income is coming from. A lot of unemployment going on right now. And there’s some chairs act provisions that deal with unemployment that we can talk about two. But it’s a scary time, but there will be a time when we’re back. Fundraising. Yeah, this is This is gonna be important, as is the case for a little bit, um, of the wealthier er taxpayer. That is capped by the amount of deductions that can take for charitable contribution. And the traditional cap had been 50% of their adjusted gross income. And if it was a cash donation, the tax cuts and job, Zack said. 60% of your adjusted gross income was your cap of how much you could take for charitable contribution deduction. So if you made $100,000 in adjusted gross income that you were going to report to the I. R. S, you could take up to a $50,000 or if it was a cash contribution to a charity $60,000 deduction off that amount, that was the limitation. This year, that limit is gone. So if you wanted to donate 100,000 of your $100,000 adjusted gross income, you could take a deduction for the full amount. [00:30:21.51] spk_3:
Yeah, and this is this is a provision that’s mostly for the wealthy. Very few donors bump up against the limitations against there adjusted gross income in in their charitable deductions that it’s not very common, right. But we got some. We got some relief [00:30:34.24] spk_0:
for older people who may not make very much an income anymore. That’s that’s maybe the primary beneficiary of this. To the extent that they have still disposable income to to provide for charitable giving. [00:32:03.00] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, Gene. Sound good sounds get all right. I want to Thank you very much for doing this. Ah, you know, E. I usually give you a lot more Notice Thio to put a show together. So So thank you. Thank you very much for helping with this special episode. Because I know I know it helps our listeners. That’s that’s really the key. Thanks, Gene. Thanks so much. And I want to remind listeners that were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers Karl Mayer off Sam Lee Woods is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and the music you’ll be hearing shortly because it’s hard to put it in right over this when it’s on the fly. Special episode is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. Many thanks to Sam, Susan and Mark for helping me get this special episode out to you quickly and, of course, to Jean as well for your for your time on fly, Jean. Thank you. You with me? Next time for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Stay safe and be great.
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Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special short episode of non profit radio to meet the needs of nonprofits during the Corona virus pandemic. This is our fourth special episode. Non Profits and Cares Act. The Cares Act was passed late last week. We’re recording on Friday, April 3rd. There are benefits in the act that nonprofits can’t take advantage of benefits for your organ and your staff, and they’re pretty good, so you may want to apply. Plus, there’s longer term relief for nonprofits. Non profit fundraising. Jean Takagi explains it all. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group Jean Welcome. How are you? [00:01:09.60] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you very much, tony, for allowing me to share information with your with your audience. [00:01:15.42] spk_3:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. I know you’ve been ah, believing it is my pleasure. You’ve been busy all week talking about the Cares Act, I’m sure. [00:01:26.18] spk_0:
Definitely everybody interested in in, uh, how nonprofits can take advantage and really thankful that there’s some advocacy groups out there that got nonprofits considered in these in these Lost? [00:02:11.24] spk_3:
Yeah, for sure. Explicitly in in some cases. So all your work this week has led you to this to this pinnacle non profit radio. So it’s all led up to here. So thank you for all that preparation that you’ve been doing toe to talk to our listeners. Um, is it is it best if we, uh, you want to start with an overview? I mean, I definitely want to get into the paycheck protection program and the economic injury disaster loans. Do you want to start a broader than that before we get in that specific? Well, [00:02:51.14] spk_0:
I’ll just mention that the Cares act is this $2.2 billion package. And, um, when provisions were put in for small businesses, it was really important. Thio note that nonprofits are out there who are also employers who are also desperate for assistance at this time. And thio have non profits put into provisions like the payroll protection program are really important. But this is, um, just part of the legislation that’s come down since the Corona virus pandemic has hit us and and our federal government has started paying attention to what needs our country’s having great now desperate needs in many cases. And there was a set of laws called the Families First Corona Virus Response Act. That duck with leaves a swell paid leaves by employees. And so that’s another component that I hope we get a chance to talk about in addition to the care, Zach. [00:03:19.34] spk_3:
Okay, Um, all right, so why don’t we? Why don’t we take care of that? What’s the what’s the the leave? The leave provisions? So the [00:04:46.65] spk_0:
leave provisions in basically apply to again small businesses, including non profits with less than 500 employees and provided for two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now, sick leave isn’t required to be federally from under federal law to be. I hate it. In many cases, some states do require it. But here is a federal law ah, that required now all small employers, including non profits, to provide two weeks of emergency paid sick leave. Now there are some exceptions that might be possible for employers that had less than 50 employees for undue hardship, Um, for really, really small organizations where that’s just not at all possible that that is a standard that they might be able to to meet. But generally this applies to everyone, and the amount of paid sick leave is at the employees regular rate up to $511 per day. So it’s captain a 10 days or 5100 and $10. Okay, um, and if it is to take care of ah, child or, you know because of the child is is the one who’s sick or the child is, uh, needs child care because their schools of clothes because of quarantine rules, then the amount would be the employees regular rate up to $200 per day. So not the full 511. But it would be. Actually, I’m sorry. The employers rate times 2/3 that 2/3 of the employers rate or a captain $200 per day for that 10 days. So that’s the first section required. Paid sickly. [00:05:05.28] spk_3:
Okay, where can we find this in writing somewhere? So because that’s a lot to digest. Yeah, it’s See this on the web. [00:05:36.24] spk_0:
So if you just Google families first Corona Virus Response Act, um, the National Council of non profit actually had a good site on that. So that maybe a place to look Okay, Cool. Uh, the other leave that they have is a 12 week of emergency family and medical leave, and basically it’s a 10 week add on to the two weeks that you originally had. But this is only for care of family members again. Child care. If there’s a sick child due to the Corona virus or their school got quarantined, and child care is required to be provided [00:05:50.87] spk_3:
that it is not to be child care, could it be care of someone else in the family who’s not a child? [00:05:56.64] spk_0:
It could be another dependent. I believe that that’s Ah provided a family member [00:06:02.02] spk_3:
dependent. Okay, but that wouldn’t be a parent then, unless the parent was independent. [00:06:38.48] spk_0:
I don’t know that that currents are included will have to wait to see if, if the regulation spell that out become. And that’s an additional 10 weeks and again to the to the 12 weeks that sorry to the two weeks that that’s in the original act. And that’s a 2/3 of each employee’s usual pay up to $200 per day. Now, this is a huge burden on employers, right? All of a sudden, if they hadn’t been required to pay leave before now they’re required to pay leave. And obviously, a lot of employers are gonna be cash strapped now if their businesses have closed and things so the these air not available if the workplace is completely closed down. Um, and the other thing to know that employers can recoup these costs through a payroll tax credit. So details kind of in the regulations or in some of the sites, including the National Council of non profit sites I mentioned. But employers can recoup these costs. Employees are getting paid sick leave under these provisions. So that was one of the immediate loss that came out [00:07:10.84] spk_3:
when you say the workplace must be closed. You mean the organization Shut down. You don’t mean the office closed, do you? Or do you? [00:07:18.60] spk_0:
If the office is closed and the employees are unable to perform their jobs from home, so if [00:07:38.18] spk_3:
and unable to be able to work from home Oh, correct. Okay. Okay. Because of the caregiving that they’re providing a correct. All right. Um, can we go to the to the S B a loans. Okay. Is that right? [00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s that’s one. Probably critical. [00:08:42.84] spk_3:
Okay, Yes. I want to make sure we exhausted the other. The other information that you had, I want to say just to get started. The S B a site s b a dot gov is very, very simple. I think I was able to understand it, Um s p a dot gov and then you’ll be looking at this basketball size picture of a Corona virus. You can’t possibly miss it on the site, and you just click in there and to learn more. And then you just scroll right down to Corona virus funding options. And then, ah, Pedro opens up with, ah, lot of what we will. Well, it’ll be. It’ll cover what? Gene and I are about to talk about the paycheck protection program. The e i D. L. Which is the economic interest, Economic injury, disaster loan. And then there’s a couple of others too, so it’s really very, very helpful, I think thea CSB a site s p a dot gov um Shall we start with the paycheck protection program gene that that’s also only for employers of 500 or fewer right employees. [00:09:31.68] spk_0:
Yeah, fewer than 500 employees, including non profit. So really a big point to add that nonprofits are eligible for this. Ah, and agreed that this is an important provision. $349 billion was dedicated towards this. And on the date that we’re recording this tony is the first day that the application theoretically was released. Um, but these loans are available by S from S P a lender’s ah, that would include most F d I C insured banks. But not all of these institutions are ready to implement this, even though the application theoretically came out today. And one of the concerns that everybody is having on day one is that the regulations just came out as an interim rule last night. [00:09:47.06] spk_3:
Yeah, so that just right, Just Thursday, just last night, something came out. Yeah, [00:11:04.31] spk_0:
And while the application and and the SP a site makes it look easy, there are a lot of unanswered questions or ambiguities, and that is making with lenders have have a problem. Ah t implement this. Some people are guessing all of the loans are going to run out on day one because $349 billion. Sounds like a lot. But if you say every small business in the country is eligible thio to take this in every small amount profit, there’s only so much that that money is going to last. And there’s a question about whether the lenders are going to prefer their own clients. So their existing clients that have loans with the organizations are they gonna prefer the larger clients because they value their business, for which, you know their banks are going to reach some sort of reward over time. Are they gonna value them ahead? Was a small non profit that’s coming in? So my best advice is to try to go in to your own bank, find out if they are an SP a lender, uh, and make your case to them as quickly as possible. I don’t know that everything will be depleted on day one. I’m That might be the worst case scenario, I believe while Spargo Bank has not started yet because of issues with implementation, So there are there are going to be problems getting this rolling, but once it rolls, the money’s not gonna last very long. So I would say to the extent you can I get your paperwork together very quickly. The SP A site lets you know kind of what type of paperwork is required for this, and there’s not a lot. It’s not like a traditional known as well, tony. I guess that’s maybe the first thing I [00:11:40.04] spk_3:
should be relaxed some of the some of the requirements and they’ve really streamlined the the application, especially for this. I know for myself, Um, well, we’ll get to the economic injury loan. But just from one day to the next the economic injury loan, the application went from like four different forms you had to fill out last Sunday night to Monday when it was just streamlined, like two or three. It was like there was three screens. You just had a pick selections and make a bunch of certifications, and you were done and it was much more burdensome just the day before. [00:12:15.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and these things have been changing on the Fly, the paycheck protection program. In the best scenario about this, that nonprofits need to know which. Maybe I shouldn’t have hidden the ball, hit [00:12:28.73] spk_3:
the ball, start figuring it out. That’s okay, [00:12:31.40] spk_6:
is [00:12:32.64] spk_0:
why it’s so great. If you can access, it is it’s alone. That’s forgivable. Meaning that it’s essentially a grant s. Oh, it’s a loan that you’re going to make. And then if you keep up your payroll force, um, you pretty much get to recoup all of it back. And that’s a huge thing, right? To be able to keep your work staff on so that that’s the big point. [00:13:23.89] spk_3:
And the details of that are in the, uh, in that on that s B a site that I, uh that I that I was suggesting people go to says, You know, you’re if you haven’t kept everybody, you have to rehire everybody, I think, by June 20th or June 30th of this year. But the details are on the SP, a site. It’s really it’s in plain language. It’s really pretty simple to understand what you’re committing to. But even if you know, even if you’re not able to keep up your workforce on and not have it converted to a grant, at least it is. It’s a very favorable [00:13:32.34] spk_7:
Hello, [00:13:33.34] spk_0:
right? It’s 0.5% less than 1/2 a percent [00:13:38.53] spk_3:
and deferred interest is deferred for the 1st 6 months. [00:13:41.41] spk_0:
Correct? And do on a two years. Right now, though, they’re very likely could be an extension. And we may see variations of this and hopefully, more appropriations of more money. Should they run out of this amount. I I’m pretty sure the federal government knows that this is still phase one. Ah, and they’re going to be additional phases necessary on an individual level as well as on on entity level. [00:14:15.84] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. Anything more you want to add about Thea about the PPP, The paycheck protection program [00:14:55.84] spk_0:
show? Sure. So let’s talk about what it what it what the loan is for Andi. That’s exactly what it refers to payroll to paying your payroll. But it also includes utilities interest on your mortgage, not the principal on your mortgage, but interest on your mortgage, uh, and rent. So you and utility so some some occupancy costs and employee costs. And generally the amount of the loan is going to be determined by 2.5 months, essentially 2.5 times the average totally monthly payroll costs based on ah, one year. I’m sorry. Based on the last year. A test period, right that times a 2.5 times monthly payroll costs. That’s something Thio think about as being a huge, huge help at this time. [00:15:24.31] spk_3:
That’s that’s 10 weeks worth of payroll, plus those of expenses that you mentioned interest on mortgages, utilities, et cetera, And [00:17:39.70] spk_0:
no collateral. No personal guarantee is not like other S b A loan. So, um, a CZ, long as you’re under 500 employees there, few other qualifications, some of them I’m not so happy about that. You know, if you if you’ve got a criminal record or anything yeah, an indictment, you don’t qualify for it. Um, not not even a conviction there, Justin Indictment. So it’s It’s interesting formulas that would come up with that. I’m sure there was, ah lot of haggling on the floor to get something up quickly, but that’s what we have that there are a lot of details in this one area of confusion that I mentioned tony in BET That’s maybe creating a little bit of headaches for for banks and lenders and also for organizations that are trying to share information about this, including May is what about independent contractor costs. So we talked about payroll and payroll. You know, from a legal accounting standpoint, we’re talking about employees, right? But what if what about the non profits that are paying people? Is independent contractors Ah, and my understanding. And based on the interim rule that came out last night from the S B A. That payroll costs do not include independent contractor costs. Although I’m seeing conflicting information from independent sector and the Council of Now, not the National Council of Nonprofits right now about that issue and partly because the application refers to do you have employees or independent contractors that are reported as 10 90 nines? That’s what the application says, which would lead you to to think that if you can have either or that there must be some benefit if you have independent contractors that you’re paying as well. But part of my rational, I’m thinking that the SP a interim rule is probably right on this issue is that independent contractors, even sole proprietorships, can apply for this loan forgivable loan program, the payroll protection program themselves, so they don’t have to rely on hiring entity to do it for them. They can apply for it directly. So we’re a little confusion. They’re not absolutely clear. I don’t think any of us can say with 100% that we know the truth. Oh, [00:18:14.34] spk_3:
so at this stage, are you best leaving independent contractors out of your calculation of payroll for purposes of of the PPP just so that you don’t, you know, muddy up your application with a possible problem that would that would hold it up and then knowing that maybe you can go back when you get further guidance? If you’re If you are using a lot of 10 99 contractors, I think this is gonna [00:18:15.17] spk_0:
be processed very quickly. And [00:18:18.14] spk_3:
you think they’re gonna get you think they’re gonna gloss over issues like this in the beginning and very possibly clean up later? [00:19:01.94] spk_0:
Yeah, very possibly. The problem with including the 10 99 contractors, Maybe Twofold. One is that if they weren’t intended to be included, will the government say that’s not gonna be forgivable? And is your budgeting based on you know, making these considering these grants rather than loans? And it very well could be that if you report independent contractors, they may just say No, this isn’t forgivable. The whole thing is alone. That’s one consideration. I don’t think as nonprofits think about this and end the limited amount of money that’s available. They shouldn’t count on this. They should definitely apply for it as quickly as possible. But they shouldn’t 100% count on it being available for them [00:19:17.72] spk_3:
available and forgivable and unforgivable. That’s Yeah, [00:19:21.63] spk_0:
that’s correct. That’s a really important. Okay, point. All [00:19:56.70] spk_3:
right, balance, balance these things as you’re doing your application. You know, maybe get advice from a board member. Certainly legal counsel, if you have that. But but don’t you know, I don’t think you should let these potential problems hang you up and not not participate yet. Get your application in. You know, you might decide not to include your 10 99 contractors. Maybe that’s a decision you make. But you get it in at least for your for your payroll, your payroll, folks, your employees so that you know you could be covered for 10 weeks of, uh, 10 weeks of payroll. I mean, that’s that’s valuable. You get the get the darn thing in, make a decision and get it in one way or the other. [00:20:22.40] spk_0:
Yeah, and have all the material available, including your independent contractor, information available. They’re asking for it in the application, so your bank will probably help determine whether that they’ll include that in the loan or not. Just bring it all in. Get your paperwork ready. I know everybody’s inundated with work that’s trying to keep things together. Leaders are, and this is worth the time. [00:20:27.87] spk_3:
Yeah, is 10 weeks of payroll Yes, it’s [00:20:30.10] spk_0:
time. It’s huge. So you’ve gotta put other things aside to get this done and get it done as early as possible because [00:20:37.09] spk_3:
of you. You’re talking about the money. All right, [00:20:39.48] spk_0:
get it, Get it ready early next week, if you can. [00:20:56.04] spk_3:
Let’s move to the ER the i d l. You know, I hate jargon wth the economic injury disaster loan. Um, this is this is different. This is this is other types of expenses, Gene. Yeah. So it’s [00:20:56.83] spk_0:
work. It’s a working capital loans essentially. So it could be used for payroll. But if you can’t apply for both in and put the same use for both, So if you ask for apparel protection program loan, you can also ask for an e idea alone for the same reason. But you could ask for a different reason for working capital in another other business costs that you’re gonna have. Um, and again, this is designed for small businesses and small nonprofits. But there’s only $10 billion that’s allocated here, So it’s a lot less than the other program. Yeah, but go ahead and apply for it as early as possible. [00:21:45.37] spk_3:
Now, this has a great feature. Ah, $10,000 advance. That’s an advance on the loan. And that could be forgivable, right? And that’s it. Get their inherent [00:21:52.04] spk_0:
right. Even if you get turned down. If you whether you get accepted or not, the $10,000 is years to keep. [00:21:55.25] spk_3:
Oh, it’s whether you get turned out. So even if you’re approved for the loan, the $10,000 advance is still forgivable. Is that right? [00:22:01.45] spk_0:
I I believe it needs not. It does not need to be repaid in either case. [00:22:49.34] spk_3:
Okay, okay. My understanding of it. And they’re saying that this is gonna hit your bank within 3 to 5 days of your application. Now, I already applied for my business more than three days ago and I haven’t gotten it. Hasn’t been quite been five business days. It’s been four on. I haven’t seen it yet. So don’t Don’t be wedded to the 3 to 5 days it’s gonna cause they do ask for your bank account. They ask for your account number, they ask for your routing number. Um, uh, so they are intending to deposit this $10,000 advance quickly, But you know, you may not get it within the 3 to 5 days, but it is forgivable and and it is an advance on the loan, so it comes fast, and then the loan consideration is a longer term process, right? So [00:23:38.35] spk_0:
it gets paid without them processing the loan at all. And you just get paid based on the application, which is fantastic, um, and, uh, again really something to take advantage of, but limited funds. So go in as early as possible. It’s great, tony, that you went in very early. People should should do that again early next week, and this is separate from the paycheck protection program. But if you do get accepted for the forgiveness of loan under the first act of paycheck protection Program, that we talked about that $10,000 under this sea idea will be counted against the cap on that. So just just note that you can’t double dip here. Okay? Okay, but the loan interest rate is 2.75%. Ah, and the maximum term is 30 years. It’s gonna be dependent upon your credit worthiness. So it follows more standard procedures and the paycheck protection lung, which again doesn’t matter what your credit is. Doesn’t matter if you have outstanding loans or not. The first, the 1st 1 that we talked about the forgivable loans disciplined [00:24:03.84] spk_7:
a [00:24:26.00] spk_3:
little tighter requirements. Lending requirements more more typical than then what? They waved for the payroll protection. Her act. Okay. Okay. Um, anything you want to add about economic injury, Disaster loan? The e i D. L again, it’s all this is all very well. Very clearly laid out. Big pictures on the S B, a dot gov website. Yes. [00:24:35.48] spk_0:
I guess I’ll just say that it’s available also for debt payment. So your your ongoing business expenses, including debt payment. [00:25:21.30] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, so we got some longer term relief. Uh, regarding the charitable income tax, the federal charitable income tax deduction that we, uh, you know, in the ER in the tax and, well, I don’t forget the formal name, Tax and Jobs Act. Ah, there was, uh, there was a reduction in the It took away an incentive for non itemizers to make charitable gif ts. And so And we’ve seen some hit there because the vast moon is that the vast majority the majority of people do not itemize their taxes. Uh, but we got some. We got some relief. So the [00:27:17.08] spk_0:
tax cuts and jobs act from Thank you your job back from a couple of years ago raised the standard deduction, almost doubling it. The impact of that is it left about 8% of the taxpayers itemizers, so it’s a very, very small portion that actually get the benefit of a charitable contribution deduction. Because the charitable contribution deduction is one of the itemized deductions that you get. So more than 90% of taxpayers get no tax benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction until this act until the cars that came into play. Now, this is only a one year provisions, but I’m hope it’s a precursor for a change in the law to allow for a universal deduction so that there’s more equity across every taxpayer for getting some sort of benefit for making a charitable contribution deduction. So now it looks like it’s on Lee applicable to those generally who are a little bit more wealthier than others, that that have the ability to itemize, taxes, their deductions and get a tax benefit from that and this above the line deduction. How accountants refer to it It’s for $300 so anybody who makes a contribution can get $300 off if it’s to a qualifying charity. And some of the big charities that do not qualify donor advised funds. That’s kind of an important want to note. So don’t advice funds typically used by a little bit more wealthier individual that would tend to itemize taxes their tax returns. But that will not qualify. And that helps to get the money into the stream of operating charities quicker than those that are sort of keeping funds in accounts for years without a that payment respect provisions. [00:28:33.24] spk_3:
I’m hoping that that $300 will increase in the future, but at least as you said, it’s a start. It’s It’s $300 up to $300 per per taxpayer. And it’s just for this year 2020 so that anyone itemizing or not, could get at least that much. $300 uh, removed from, you know, exempt from, um, you’re from your taxable income or, well, I’m getting into the weeds about how it’s calculated. Let’s not go there. You get it. You have a federal charitable income tax deduction, if you’re if you’re a non itemizers up to $300. So that’s something that when you when you are making your fundraising messaging again because we will get back to that, there will be times when will be the right time for you to talk about your needs and how your donors can help you fill. Those is maybe even these especially critical and unbudgeted needs. You can make it clear that, ah, that nine non itemizers among your donors can I get a federal income tax charitable deduction for up to $300. That may move some people. I [00:29:32.64] spk_0:
think there’s an op ed. I can’t remember if it was in the Chronicle of Philanthropy or not earlier this week. Tony, that talked about the need to give to smaller charities at this time. Those were the ones that are gonna be really struggling. And if you really value a small charity, this $300 deduction that you wouldn’t have received before may be just what, you know, tip some people over to helping the small charities. And I’m hoping that that’s that’s true. I’m not sure what type of impact this will have for most people who are probably very fearful right now about where their income is coming from. A lot of unemployment going on right now. And there’s some chairs act provisions that deal with unemployment that we can talk about two. But it’s a scary time, but there will be a time when we’re back. Fundraising. Yeah, this is This is gonna be important, as is the case for a little bit, um, of the wealthier er taxpayer. That is capped by the amount of deductions that can take for charitable contribution. And the traditional cap had been 50% of their adjusted gross income. And if it was a cash donation, the tax cuts and job, Zack said. 60% of your adjusted gross income was your cap of how much you could take for charitable contribution deduction. So if you made $100,000 in adjusted gross income that you were going to report to the I. R. S, you could take up to a $50,000 or if it was a cash contribution to a charity $60,000 deduction off that amount, that was the limitation. This year, that limit is gone. So if you wanted to donate 100,000 of your $100,000 adjusted gross income, you could take a deduction for the full amount. [00:30:21.51] spk_3:
Yeah, and this is this is a provision that’s mostly for the wealthy. Very few donors bump up against the limitations against there adjusted gross income in in their charitable deductions that it’s not very common, right. But we got some. We got some relief [00:30:34.24] spk_0:
for older people who may not make very much an income anymore. That’s that’s maybe the primary beneficiary of this. To the extent that they have still disposable income to to provide for charitable giving. [00:32:03.00] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, Gene. Sound good sounds get all right. I want to Thank you very much for doing this. Ah, you know, E. I usually give you a lot more Notice Thio to put a show together. So So thank you. Thank you very much for helping with this special episode. Because I know I know it helps our listeners. That’s that’s really the key. Thanks, Gene. Thanks so much. And I want to remind listeners that were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers Karl Mayer off Sam Lee Woods is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and the music you’ll be hearing shortly because it’s hard to put it in right over this when it’s on the fly. Special episode is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. Many thanks to Sam, Susan and Mark for helping me get this special episode out to you quickly and, of course, to Jean as well for your for your time on fly, Jean. Thank you. You with me? Next time for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Stay safe and be great.
Our panel of grantmakers and a grantee reveal savvy strategies for building and maintaining relationships with your institutional funders. Foundations are made of people. How do you get close to them? This is a panel I moderated at The Foundation Center in New York City. Back when there was a The Foundation Center. It’s now 
