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Nonprofit Radio for January 9, 2023: Gene & Amy’s 2023 Outlook

 

Gene Takagi & Amy Sample WardGene & Amy’s 2023 Outlook

Our esteemed contributors, Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward, reveal what they’re thinking about for the New Year. We’re talking about Twitter, donor advised funds, fiscal sponsorship, and illegal activities. Gene comes to us from NEO Law Group, and Amy is CEO of NTEN.

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[00:02:06.02] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast, Happy New Year. I hope you enjoyed your time off. I hope you’re looking forward to our New year and I have more on that in in Tony’s take two. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with sal pendulum fractious if I had to hear that you missed this week’s show, Gene and Amy’s 2023 Outlook, our esteemed contributors, Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward reveal what they’re thinking about for the new year. We’re talking about twitter donor advised funds fiscal sponsorship and illegal activities. Jean comes to us from neo law group and AMY is ceo of N 10 on Tony’s take to take in this new year. What a genuine pleasure to have both Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward with me us together. Substantively, it’s not just 1/50 anniversary show. No, this is not the 650th show. This is not july of 2023 Gene and Amy are with us to talk substance together and cross talk as well, you know them, but they are esteemed contributors and they are do their proper introductions, jean is our legal contributor and managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in san Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and he’s at G. Tac. Welcome to the New Year’s show, Gene,

[00:02:13.49] spk_1:
thank you Tony great to be here and great to be here with AMY especially,

[00:02:34.00] spk_0:
absolutely yes, a genuine pleasure with AmY sample Ward, who is Ceo of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor, their most recent co authored book is the tech that comes next about equity and inclusiveness in technology development. They’re at AMy sample Ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward, Amy, Happy New Year! Welcome to the New Year’s show.

[00:02:42.26] spk_2:
Thanks. It feels like maybe we’ll revisit the intro if you’re saying our twitter handles and then we’re about to talk about what’s happening over at twitter. But you know, that’s all part of what’s to come and

[00:02:54.58] spk_0:
absolutely could end up being uh, mastodon.

[00:02:58.61] spk_2:
We’ll

[00:03:08.98] spk_0:
see about that. Absolutely. All right. We, um, we are going to start with Gene, um, to talk about Gene, you’re concerned about some, some legislative potential changes around donor advised funds.

[00:04:09.26] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, it’s the donor advised fund area is probably one that most of your listeners are kind of familiar with because they’re the fastest growing area of charitable giving over a trillion dollars now held by donor advised funds. And that is huge, growing much faster than private foundations. And, you know, they make up some of the biggest charity charities in the country, I think, Um, possibly half of the top 10 maybe, um, maybe don’t advise from sponsoring organizations and several of those associated with financial institutions. Um, so like a Fidelity or vanguard flop Goldman Sachs morgan Stanley. Um So, you know, there’s been some heat about, well are these really charities, are they charitable giving? And the answer is yes, they are charities, even though they are associated with financial institutions. But that heat has led up to people going, well, what is the money doing? What is that $1 trillion dollars doing in these donor advised funds? Are the and

[00:04:19.50] spk_0:
this has been percolating for years

[00:04:21.88] spk_1:
and this

[00:04:28.85] spk_0:
began on the Senate, the Senate Finance Committee. Uh It was one of the Senate committees. Uh this has been coming up for years around the money parked in donor advised funds and not getting to 501 C3 charities.

[00:04:40.03] spk_1:
Yeah, I think starting with Senator Grassley at the Senate Finance Committee chuck

[00:04:44.91] spk_0:
Grassley. Right? Yes. So

[00:04:52.91] spk_1:
it’s been people have been talking about it but don’t advise funds continue to go up on this exponential growth or where they just keep getting used more and more often. Oftentimes by, you know, some of the very, very ultra wealthy individuals and there’s some heat about that too, about why do we have so many ultra wealthy individuals who can control, you know what charities are doing, who can control our politics,

[00:05:11.74] spk_0:
but

[00:05:34.10] spk_1:
that’s all part of the same story. But because of that, you know, there’s been some pushback and some legislation suggested and now sponsored and introduced, well I should say introduced into Congress, but it’s not actually been a bit on a bill that has a formal sponsor that’s before anybody other than a committee right now looking at it. And that’s called the accelerating um, charitable efforts act or the Ace Act. And that’s up, uh, in front of some congressional members and a committee right now. And that has all these reforms to donor advised funds to

[00:05:51.98] spk_0:
help

[00:05:53.21] spk_1:
sort of mitigate some of those problems of the warehousing of wealth, um, and, and money not getting out to charities as quickly as some people would like. But there are some, you know, there are pros and cons to what all that involves, but it’s good for people to sort of be aware of it.

[00:06:09.19] spk_0:
Okay. Be paying attention to this. Um, now, when at least when I was in 6th and 7th grade, we used to learn that an act becomes a bill and a bill becomes law after it’s signed. But so thank you for making the distinction. Uh, all right. So, so this doesn’t have any sponsors yet there, it’s proposed like it’s, is it in a committee?

[00:07:51.29] spk_1:
It’s it’s in a committee right now. The chances are while I’m not a great prognosticator of what happens on Capitol Hill and I’m not, I’m not based in Washington. I will say what I’m hearing from people who are, is that it probably doesn’t have a good chance of passing right now. So it’s unlikely to see changes now, but this is a growing issue as you mentioned, tony that’s been percolating for, for years and just getting more and more attention. So provisions of the act, which is probably the overall is pretty complicated and we won’t go into the technicalities here that would bore your listeners, but it’s complicated. And for part of that reason there’s not sort of universal, like the nonprofit sector, all wants this to be passed? No, there’s like people on both sides of this issue. And because of that, I think, you know, um, prognosticators who are more informed to suggest that this probably won’t pass as is, are probably right, but there are aspects of it that could find their way in other bills. Um, so that’s sometimes how laws are passed. They don’t advise when laws passed through the pension protection act, not necessarily think those are related, but they can slip their way in. So just sort of pay attention to all of these, you know, movements around wealth and power and what that means to our, um, our charitable sector and how donor advised funds are being used. Something just to, to look at. And there are several organizations who are advocating on either side of this.

[00:08:38.91] spk_0:
Okay, cool, alright. We’ll pay attention to donor advised funds, uh, in terms of wealth and, uh, you know, 88 individuals, uh, controlling, or certainly heavily influencing the charitable priorities. That that’s for, uh, we’ll have to do that on another show. Um, fiscal sponsorship is uh is something else you want us to look out for? Just just define it you know in in its basics so that everybody has the common understanding that we’re starting with.

[00:09:32.42] spk_1:
So the issue with fiscal sponsorship while it is also growing very very quickly. Um And the nonprofit sector might be aware of it but sort of the outside world might not really know what that means. And generally what it means is that there are people who have a charitable project but don’t have a charity entity with 501 C. Three status to run it. They look for another group to either how’s it um or to give grants to their group which might be considered a taxable for profit Um If they don’t have five oh one C. Three status for some period of time and that’s how fiscal sponsorship can arise it can arise in different forms but because it’s not defined by law it’s done wrong all the time. So while it’s growing.

[00:09:57.32] spk_0:
What about new charities that don’t yet have their five oh one C. Three. Maybe they’ve applied so they’ve submitted their 10 23 to the I. R. S. But the process may take a long time can they also sometimes benefiting from fiscal sponsors. So they’ll they’ll get an established five oh one C. Three to make grants to them until they get their own 501 C. Three determination. Is that is that okay?

[00:10:53.65] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a perfect use of a fiscal sponsor and fiscal sponsors can act as incubators, even if they’re not applying for five oh one C three status right away, even if it’s something they’d like to test out and say, is this a viable charitable idea? Um, So yes, fiscal sponsorship can absolutely run that way, but if it’s not structured properly, even if that is the well intended sort of purposes of everybody involved, if it’s not structured properly, you can get into trouble both as an organization, you can end up having a donor who gets denied a deduction. Um, you can get a foundation into trouble who finds it. So structuring these things properly is really important. So as this field advances and evolves and it’s been around in informal ways for, you know, many, many decades, um, as this field advances, we want, we would like to see sort of more sort of consistency in operating it in a lawful manner that doesn’t endanger anybody and really it helps everybody accomplish what they want to do charitably.

[00:11:58.73] spk_0:
What about the idea, I mean, if you are incubating an organization, let’s say it’s it’s a few people, it doesn’t really matter, but I’m just trying to take it out of the realm of just one person, I suppose you’re incubating uh an idea and you, the Community Foundation because they’ll often act as communities as fiscal sponsors. Community foundations. You think it’s a, it’s a bonafide non profit idea, but and you make grants to it, but it turns out not to be so they don’t get their five oh one C three determination positive. What what what happens then is is the is the Community Foundation liable at all? And what happens to the deductions that were granted to the to this nascent now, not now, not Uh not a 501 C3 entity.

[00:12:51.99] spk_1:
Yeah. So I don’t want to dive too deep into the weeds. But yes, if the Community Foundation is housing and incubating the project, it’s not the same project that is housed in this new entity that is applying for five oh one C three status, that’s going to be transferred over into the new entity once it gets its five oh one C three status. So the Community Foundation is running an illegal activity, which is maybe another two We can talk about, well then the community foundation would of course get into trouble. But if it’s a small part of what the community foundation does, which it probably would be right, it would be maybe like 1% or maybe even less than 1% of the foundation’s overall activities, that’s not gonna usually result in anything terrible unless they were doing very terrible things. Which is unlikely. Um But you know, it would be different. An incubator definitely has less risks and they’ve got all their insurance and you know, legal support and accounting support to make sure that it’s not running afoul while it’s housed in the Community Foundation,

[00:13:07.79] spk_0:
if

[00:13:44.00] spk_2:
I can say something, Gene, I think as I’m listening to this conversation and from Anton has been a fiscal sponsor for many different groups, um you know, you also don’t have to be pursuing C three status, it might the whole purpose of what you’re doing could be done, you know, like we’ve been a fiscal sponsor for a group that was going to hold an event once the event was over, they were all done, they weren’t there was nothing to pursue a C three registration for, you know, So just naming that there’s a few nuances in that in the in the timeline to that, it may not be that there’s ever AC three application and something shady happened, but also the thing is over, you know, there’s a lot of moving

[00:14:00.81] spk_0:
pieces we have and what did you look for uh if you do in deciding to sponsor?

[00:15:21.47] spk_2:
Well, folks approach us, we haven’t, you know, gone out saying we would love to be a fiscal sponsor, it’s because it’s not, you know, intent isn’t set up, there are organizations of course, so that’s like their mission is to fiscally sponsored organizations, um but when we have been approached and folks have asked if we can essentially like extend our organizational privilege to enable their work, um the things that we look for are if there’s any sort of document or organizing agreement for the people involved on the other side again because they might not be, they might not be trying to be an organization but we want there to be accountability that that we can come back to um that they understand how much money they’re likely to bring in and how they’re going to spend it and that and tens books aren’t going to end up with some $10,000. We can’t do something you know um That there’s really a plan for what’s coming in and what’s going out and that they understand the options that exist for either becoming on payroll with us not being on paper roll being a short term contractor because N 10 already has staff and eight different states. But what does that look like if we were bringing someone on for a longer term and they needed to be on payroll in a state we’re not in. So we just have those conversations with them. But we have a standard agreement for fiscal sponsorship that we send to folks when we’re having those relationships and you know, separate bank accounts separate P. And L. Like all of

[00:15:42.21] spk_0:
that.

[00:16:12.33] spk_1:
Let me add just one more thing that some sometimes it’s all about creating um what when some people would call a commons. So these projects never wanted to leave but they find the efficiency of centralizing kind of administrative and back office resources and fiscal sponsor takes care of your legal filings and your tax filings, your insurance. Um and multiple projects just want to stay there forever. Um, So that that’s a use of the fiscal sponsor, a perfectly acceptable use of the fiscal sponsor as well. As long as it’s structured properly, structuring properly would be maybe my main point in this is that oftentimes people think, oh, I’ve seen somebody else do it, let’s do it the same way that may not work that they may be using the wrong example. So the national network of fiscal sponsor. Um, and then they’ve got a good sort of model of how this can be done properly.

[00:16:42.00] spk_0:
They have a book too, don’t they? Gene

[00:16:44.17] spk_1:
the book is actually from Greg Colvin and Stephanie Pettitt called fiscal sponsorship. Six ways to do it. Right. And it’s, I believe the only book out there, um, and it’s really good and not terribly expensive. So if you’re a fiscal sponsor and you’re not quite sure about what you’re doing by that

[00:17:06.18] spk_0:
Book. Okay, fiscal sponsorship six ways to do it. Right. Very aptly named book like it. Okay. Um, yeah. And there are also implications for the donors, right? If this is if it’s not created and implemented correctly. Gene the can the donors get like their charitable deduction clawed back or something like that.

[00:17:22.18] spk_1:
Yeah, they could get it denied by the I. R. S. Because if the donor directs their donation to an entity that’s not a charity. So if they’re telling the fiscal sponsor you must give this money to this project that’s a separate

[00:17:36.40] spk_0:
entity, well

[00:17:38.20] spk_1:
with a different bank account, the donor doesn’t get a deduction. Fiscal sponsor may have been aiding and abetting tax fraud. So problems there. So they’ve got to be careful

[00:17:56.72] spk_0:
okay for your donors too. All right. And on the on the illegal activity side. What what what what’s your what are your concerns there?

[00:18:00.97] spk_1:
So um as a lawyer, of course any illegal activities are concerned. But well

[00:18:06.94] spk_0:
there’s illegal and there’s there’s illegal

[00:18:15.82] spk_1:
actually that’s a really good point. So one of the things that the I. R. S. Looks at is like are you a 51 C. Three organization if you’re conducting illegal activities And they use the question that you asked basically tony There’s illegal and there’s illegal. So if you are engaging in you know civil disobedience to a small extent to advocate, you’re perfectly appropriate charitable purpose and mission. You’re probably not gonna expose your Five oh one C. Three status to to being revoked for that reason. If you’re committing a little bit of bank robbery. Well

[00:18:45.27] spk_0:
that’s

[00:18:45.62] spk_1:
probably gonna get you out of the 501 C. Three status. Right,

[00:18:49.64] spk_0:
Do it right. I mean why why do anything financially fraudulent for like $1,500.

[00:18:55.49] spk_2:
Right? There’s not a little bit of bank robbery like I want the whole safe or not. You know

[00:19:07.22] spk_0:
I mean if I’m gonna if I’m gonna compromise our reputation and risk myself being in prison. I mean, I’m doing this for at least a million and a half or something. You know, I mean, let’s make some decent money out of it, for Pete’s sake. I’m not risking everything for 50,000

[00:19:14.25] spk_2:
dollars. I want the gold bars while I want everything. You know,

[00:19:18.41] spk_0:
right, here’s

[00:19:19.60] spk_1:
how about this?

[00:19:22.79] spk_0:
Let’s go all in. I mean,

[00:19:31.21] spk_1:
The lawyer will say we are all in terms of how much money we’re gonna steal, but 99% of our staff time is spent on real stuff.

[00:19:33.03] spk_0:
It’s only one

[00:19:33.82] spk_1:
of our time I had spent on. It

[00:19:55.44] spk_0:
was, it was a tiny percentage of my time. I mean, it was just a few phone calls, a couple of texts. I mean, some some signal messages. I mean, you know, it was like a half an hour and you know, and then we executed. So it’s such a small percentage of my time. Really, why are we even bothering with this? All

[00:21:07.47] spk_1:
right. Exactly. So that’s the, there’s illegal and there’s illegal, exactly. As you framed it. Um, but I think now, why, why the illegality doctrine, as lawyers like to call it, is trending a little bit, is because we have some things that are considered illegal. That’s something that some states or jurisdictions are saying, well, no, that’s not illegal. And just sort of an example is cannabis, cannabis could be legal in some states, it could be legal for medical purposes in some states? It’s illegal for recreational purposes in other states, it’s illegal and federally it’s illegal, right? So that creates just all these weird dynamics, Can we have a five oh one C three organization where we’re cannabis dispensary for medical purposes, we’re doing it for charitable purposes. Can we do that? And the answer there is kind of know right now, if it breaks federal law, if that is the purpose of the organization and so now we’re not talking about activities now, but if that’s the purpose of the organization is to break federal law, then you can’t get five oh one C. Three status and you can’t if you have five oh one C. Three status and you change your mission, you can’t keep it. So something to look at in terms of cannabis organizations,

[00:21:12.39] spk_0:
even if it’s legal, even if it’s legal in your state,

[00:21:15.23] spk_1:
Right? Because 501 C3 status is a federal tax exempt status. So

[00:21:21.42] spk_0:
that could change

[00:21:53.07] spk_2:
and that’s for the mission of the organization. But what about or a national organization based in D. C. Because they’re a big HQ, they have their annual event in Oregon and the gala where in Oregon, cannabis is is completely legalized for recreation etcetera. And, you know, the silent auction table has like a cannabis care package is they’re they’re registered in D. C. The event is in Oregon. What’s what are the layers there?

[00:23:57.52] spk_1:
So the activities may be judged by what particular state they’re in. Although the sale of cannabis would always be sort of FDA sort of under FDA rules as well. Right? So you could always get charged with a federal crime on that, which is always the tough part. But just from The federal tax exemption standpoint, it’s kind of again fits activities if it’s doing it as an activity, that’s one thing where is it illegal? You know, little bit illegal maybe, and probably not going to really enforce or try to take away 51C3 status because of one event in Oregon where it’s legal under state law. But if that’s your purpose is to to say, hey, we don’t care what the federal law is. This is what our purposes which is contrary to federal law that can get you in trouble. So that’s the cannabis thing. But the study of cannabis or the study of psychedelics, certain psychedelics that might become approved federally and tony as you were saying cannabis could change as well. Um the study of it or the policy around it, that might be a perfect vibe. One C three purpose, either in the scientific realm or the charitable or educational realm, but a little bit of gray area in all of this. But I did wanna introduce one more area of illegality. Um and that is regarding abortion because that is another really hot topic since the jobs decision by the Supreme Court, right? So that allows basically the states to decide whether abortion is legal or not. And some states are really um strict about what they think would be illegal around abortion. So funding people to get an abortion, which what a charity might do, they might not perform the abortion, but they might provide funding and sometimes it’s just funding to their own employees to be able to access abortion in a state that allows it Um that can be illegal under state law as well. So now how does the fight, you know, that affect the 501 status

[00:24:09.39] spk_0:
even just funding an employee making an employee benefit? I

[00:24:39.22] spk_1:
think a law firm in texas, this varies amongst different states. tony so texas is one that’s been um pretty tough and in my opinion just terrible about um the laws that they’ve used and some of these laws go back decades. They’re they’re old laws that they were ruled unconstitutional before, but now after the Dobbs decision there sprung back into life. Um and so yeah, even funding employees to be able to access abortion clinics in other states could be illegal under those states. And

[00:25:50.42] spk_2:
yeah, after jobs, you know, there was like this wave of companies, especially for profit companies, but I’m sure nonprofits did it too, you know, saying like trying to I think in the spirit of of making clear their values, but clearly not thinking about the practicalities, You know, making these announcements, we will always fund our staff having access to this health care. You know, even if you have to travel or whatever. But like to to jean’s point the that isn’t very straightforward. It could if it’s known explicitly that that’s what you’re funding. It could be illegal if you’re an organization in texas, but also it requires disclosure that’s already making vulnerable a vulnerable staff person write a reimbursement which a number of folks we’ve seen say policies for reimbursement of travel. Well now there’s like a paper trail of where you went and and how much it cost and you know, like instead thinking about policies that say there may be harder things happening. We’re increasing your health benefit by this, you know, percentage of dollars just in, you know, like we have to think about the actual users here and not just the value statement where we think we’re making as an organization, you know,

[00:27:23.63] spk_0:
interesting point too about the paper trail because uh, texas again is one state where people who aid in a bet abortion can be can be sued, I think right? Or it could be right, It could be sued. So, so if there’s that paper trail that Amy’s talking about that mentions where the person went and maybe what relative may have helped them or you know that those those documents that that evidence could all be used when if if somebody nefarious inside the organization wants to wants to get some people in trouble. You know that that evidence could all be used against them. Yeah. All right. Well yeah I know well intentioned but maybe not so well thought out. But it’s it’s hard when when something so so disastrous happens. You know people want to rush to the aid like you know just like individuals who give to tsunami victims and hurricanes. You know like employers and C. E. O. S. Want to rush to the aid of their employees when they feel that there’s a uh something grievous happening to them potentially. It’s hard

[00:29:12.60] spk_1:
and I want to say we haven’t heard the last on this. These laws are going to be changed and challenged for years but right now we’re not in a very good place but wrapping it back into a five oh one C. Three package um Can the I. R. S. Take away your tax exemption because you do some of these things and then we get back to your, well is it an activity that’s illegal or is it really illegal? And um my feeling is that the I. R. S. Is not going to judge on the violation of state law unless the state has actually made that determination by a court ruling. So you can’t you might be able to pursue somebody and say well you know they violated the state law but if there’s no court ruling that says that the I. R. S. Is not an arbitrary of whether somebody has broken state law or not. So they will not take away five oh one C. Three status for just a complaint that somebody is violating these rules even though actually that might be the case. Um And nobody is not you know admitting that that’s not true. But the I. R. S. Is probably gonna want to lay low on the whole abortion topic is my feeling about it. But the illegality doctrine and there’s a similar doctrine called the public policy doctrine which was first introduced for racially discrimination which was federally allowed right And bob jones University used that as you know admission criteria or other sort of policy criteria. The I. R. S. Said no we’re going to take away your tax exemption for that even though it wasn’t inconsistent with law but it broke federal public policy. So there’s a related doctrine illegality that’s a sort of violation of public policy. But these are all things that charities just start to need to know and think about because one day it may pop up right in their neighborhood and they’ll be thinking about maybe we should have advocated a little bit harder in advance of that and try to make a difference,

[00:32:10.21] spk_0:
interesting. Um Contrast between the two examples we’re talking about cannabis having been illegal all along and now slowly becoming legal and abortion. Having been legal for the past 50 years now slowly becoming illegal. All right jean. Thank you very much. Love it. It’s time for Tony’s take to taking your new year. Welcome to your new year. I am always optimistic at the beginning of a new year. I cannot help it. It doesn’t matter if we’re in a pandemic or an economic recession in 2009. I’m always optimistic at the beginning of a new year. It’s in my d. n. a. So it’s a year of opportunity. If 2023 was terrific for you and I’m talking personally and professionally, if it was a bountiful year, it was a successful year for you. However, you define that. Congratulations. I’m very happy for you. I’m glad that your 2022 was what you wanted it to be outstanding. If you’re 2022 wasn’t if it was something less than you would have liked again, personally and professionally, Don’t let that hold you back for the new year. Your past doesn’t define your future. Your 2022 doesn’t constrain what you can do in 2023, literally each day, week month, you’ve got the whole year of opportunities, new chances to excel. So don’t let the past hold you back. If your last year wasn’t up to what you would like it to have been. You’ve got a whole new year of opportunities. Welcome to your 2023. Take it in embrace it. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for gene and Amy’s 2023 outlook with Gene and Amy Amy twitter. What the hell?

[00:32:12.79] spk_2:
What

[00:32:32.70] spk_0:
the hell? Yeah. Well immoral, immoral and unethical. To begin with the new ceo Elon musk. But uh, what the hell do we do with our, with our twitter accounts and we all three of us here have won. Nearly every nonprofit let’s assume has won. What we, we sort of have a sense of the landscape. What what, what’s your advice?

[00:33:24.47] spk_2:
I think to, to sum up my feelings. I would say like down with twitter and long live the internet. But what that means to me is a lot longer. You know, I think The decision about whether your organization should use Twitter or not is the same today as it has been every day since 2007 or whatever when I launched right? Like there’s always been, I think the need to consider if a tool you’re using that is not yours, you don’t get to own it. It is always permanently gonna be someone else’s tool, right? You’re just a visitor there. If it’s values match your expectations. If the community is there like all those same questions that we’ve talked about for years

[00:33:28.67] spk_0:
are still the same

[00:35:56.59] spk_2:
questions, you know, But I think what happens is organizations hopefully do ask those questions when they join something and then it’s like a closed discussion. And what I would love to see is that organizations re ask those questions every day on these platforms, right? Um, I would love to say the conversation isn’t about Elon musk because I would like to never have a conversation about. However, he’s really making the conversation about him by taking up a lot of the space and making the decisions right? Um, even today suspending the account that was like a bot that just posted when his jet went places and now that’s been suspended. You know, it’s like, okay, there’s just so much going on there. The issue to me isn’t, what has Elon tweeted or what has he done and more? Is it a platform that has the capacity to be safe for your users in your organization? Well not if every single member of those safety teams has been fired. Right. Um, is it a platform that’s going to be reliable because maybe you’re using it to communicate in real time situations, updates, et cetera? Maybe not When the again teams that support the reliability and uptime of the tool have been fired. So if it is meeting your needs, if your community is still really active there, if it feels like it’s a good fit, I’m not gonna say empirically, there’s only one answer to using any tool. Is it a tool that intent is using anymore? No, it doesn’t meet either the reliability or the values piece that we expect. We’ve seen tons of community members. Um, board members organizations, you know, post their last tweet and some of them, it’s like a very sad goodbye. And for others, it’s find me on linkedin, here’s, here’s my profile, right? Um, and for others, the last tweet didn’t even know that it was the last tweet. It just was the last tweet and then there weren’t, weren’t anymore, You know, it wasn’t a sign off, it just kind of ended. Um, but I’ll say all that and pause and then and and hear your thoughts.

[00:36:38.40] spk_0:
So what, you know, the concerns about safety reliability, these teams having been fired. Um, what about just taking a wait and see what might replace them? I mean, it’s still, we still are now january while we’re like two months into his 2.5 months or so into his ownership. Um, Should we, should we wait? Well, and I should say we’re recording in mid december. So it may not even, it may emerge by the time this comes out in early january. Um, should we, should we wait and see what

[00:37:59.71] spk_2:
was, I think something to think about is that there is no clear timeline for what wait and see means there, there has not been a, we’ve fired all of these teams that provide the reliability of the tool and the safety of the tool or at least the illusion of safety of the tool. Um, and we’ll be hiring for those teams on x date, that’s not been the process, right? So, um, that’s not to say posting your last tweet includes deactivating your account and leaving and everything right. It could just be Maybe you stop using it. Um it could be like in 10 has done, we don’t put money into the tool so we don’t buy ads, we don’t promote things right? So we’re not investing in what it is and the accounts open, we still have a notification set so that if a community member chooses to like tweet at us and say hey how come I can’t find this about the conference, we still see it and could provide that customer service, right? Um but it’s not a place that we are spending our time spending our dollars spending our energy even if you could still find the antenna count right? Um And I think that’s a place that for us feels like we haven’t walked away from the community or whatever parts of the community are still on the platform but we have made clear our stance is that this is not a place that feels worthy of that investment right?

[00:38:20.11] spk_0:
What have you done personally with at Amy R. S. Ward?

[00:40:22.50] spk_2:
I already used twitter so inconsistently like there’s one day where I just see five things and I’m like like in everybody’s tweets and replying to people and then I like accidentally go five weeks without tweeting just because I you know I wasn’t I wasn’t logged in or I wasn’t looking at things. Um I don’t know that I have tweeted recently, I don’t have, I don’t have even in my tab purgatory of my two screens, I do not have twitter open anywhere um I think the place, it’s really interesting. The place that twitter started out for me is kind of where it has returned to of very hyperlocal like there’s so many Portland’s folks that I don’t otherwise see because I never leave my house or you know they don’t work in nonprofit text so I wouldn’t otherwise connect with them but there I could still see them on twitter, I think that’s a place where it started out and I still want to know what the replacement is. Of course I’ve had lots of calm conversations with folks who are like well where should we go and we can talk about that but I also would encourage organizations to remember that you probably are already in more places than just twitter. You know, you probably do already have a linkedin page or if not pretty easy because your employees probably have linkedin profiles and you know, set up some space there um and most importantly, out of all of this again, you and I have talked about this but I really want to make clear in the midst of this kind of twitter, what is social media anymore conversation that you never owned any of that data, you never owned those pages, you never own those profiles, you never got to control them, you do control your website, you do control your email list, make sure that you are building up that list. That you are communicating with people directly in channels that you can directly um, message to because that’s no matter what happens, twitter returns and is a place of Utopia, you still won’t own it, right. And you will own your list and you will own your website and making sure that you’re, you’re really thinking about spending your time and money and staff time in those places. That’s

[00:40:52.33] spk_0:
really valuable. Basic but valuable reminder to cherish and build on what, what you do own your your site, your list. Yeah,

[00:41:01.38] spk_1:
I think there’s, you know, some difficult equity considerations in in twitter’s value um as well. So beyond what the owner who is also the only board member, uh,

[00:41:09.93] spk_2:
that’s the best practice, Right?

[00:42:24.32] spk_1:
Uh, so beyond beyond him, uh, there’s the consideration of, well, where are the folks you are serving? Where are they at? Is there a virtual town square where they’re at? Because many, maybe on twitter and they may still be there and for you to give them messaging, that might still be important. So I’m not, I’m still on twitter and conflicted about it, but I don’t want to be judgmental about charities that decide to stay on twitter because that may be still a really important way for them to reach out to their audiences. Um and for the audiences, I don’t want to be judgmental of them either because there are a lot of people who are not privileged to be able to access a lot of other technology and other platforms. They might, you know, find twitter super easy and you know that’s what they have and I’m not yet willing to say we’re just going to leave twitter to become this, you know, white heterosexual male dominated platform and Ellen and his bros can do whatever they want with that without any pushback from other perspectives there,

[00:44:15.41] spk_2:
I hope Tony Let’s make a 2023 resolution that gene and I get to do more shows together um because it brings up such a good just hearing you share that Gina and I agree with everything. Um as always let the record reflect, I always agree with Jean and I am always doing legal activity. Um is, is the version of this from a few years ago about facebook, right. And there’s some really unique and important differences between the twitter options available just like because of how the platform works versus facebook, you know, twitter is public by default. You don’t have to have a twitter account to go see what an organization had been tweeting about. Here’s some information right versus facebook which is very like within the world of facebook um the data trail that that creates is very different right? Organizations could say despite the hellscape we’re staying in twitter and we are to loop back to the previous conversation, um, an abortion fund and we are going to make sure that we are sharing information. No one has to interact. No one has to like ask us for it. But we’re putting this information out right in a place where people maybe find it in a search on facebook doing that or saying here’s our upcoming fundraiser to raise funds for abortion funds. Everyone who RSVPs for that event and has a texas address, has just created a data trail that is likely very problematic for them, Right? And the organization maybe didn’t even understand that’s what is happening, Right? So they are very different platforms, very different ethical dilemmas for sure. Um, but but what they mean for you as an organization staying there and what kinds of compromises you might be creating for already vulnerable communities are very different because they are just very different platforms, right? That operate differently.

[00:45:09.04] spk_0:
If we if we should decide to go elsewhere. Uh, let’s let’s talk about And you well, you mentioned, you may want to put on twitter that you can now find us on, we’re gonna talk about mastodon and uh, there’s another one post. Um, but you may want to just alert folks that your activity has moved, you know, over or or like you said, find us on linkedin or you know, we’re very we’re still very active on facebook. You know, instagram maybe, you know, maybe our channel. You know, whatever you want to I think you want to let folks know what you’ve decided without just disappearing. Mm

[00:45:14.16] spk_2:
hmm

[00:45:14.93] spk_0:
And

[00:45:16.37] spk_2:
like you probably should have those links on your website. So have updating your bio to say,

[00:45:22.54] spk_0:
you

[00:45:54.15] spk_2:
know, visit our website and find the channel that works for you or something. You know, you don’t have to um, you don’t have to write that farewell letter As in last tweet with every link to every site. Right? But making sure that you do think about what a user is going to see if they do try to look you up and have the bio be updated or whatever. Um there there are a lot of folks talking about mastered on host, these other platforms. I’m, I have accounts on them. You are welcome to find me. I’m not posting a bunch there or anything but you know me, I like to just see how tools developed. So I’ve had accounts on both of those and um,

[00:46:06.02] spk_0:
you’re more, you’re more altruistic than I am. You like to see how the, how the, how the platform develops. I just want to grab the name tony-martignetti

[00:46:15.28] spk_2:
before for

[00:46:22.96] spk_0:
somebody else who’s been on my show. I’ve had tony-martignetti other, another tony-martignetti on my show. Um, he never had me on his show come to think of it.

[00:46:25.18] spk_2:
Well there is as of today no other amy sample ward. So there’s only 1 20

[00:46:31.88] spk_0:
but but I’m not posting, but I wanted to grab the grab the real estate but I did it for more selfish reasons you

[00:46:38.05] spk_2:
did altruistic.

[00:46:39.81] spk_0:
I

[00:49:20.47] spk_2:
mean I think that um as is true with a lot of social media platforms that have been uh financed by and developed by the privileged communities of tech development, that’s who’s mostly on those platforms already right? Even though they’re very different mastodon is, you know, kind of like what’s the open source values, whatever. I haven’t seen a lot of that and and post trying to be more about like what are you really thinking and like content focused mostly screenshots of tweets so it feels a little um, a little, a little bit of whiplash but I wouldn’t say that it’s bad if you are like tony and you were like, but there’s so many organizations with our acronym like we want the the handle go for it but don’t go fill the account with content as if you are present there, just just sit on the handle, you know, because once you have a complete profile, Well now it looks like you are trying to post there and people don’t know how to interact right, just hold, it reserve it in your name, put the password in last past, you know, but but don’t, don’t um like I’ve always said and 10 doesn’t have an account on these platforms even though I just said that I do and a number of staff do because you aren’t going to use individual first platform as an organization. Well, if you haven’t been an individual first um, to actually know how it works. What’s the ins and outs of this tool? What are the norms? Um, mastodon works a little bit differently than folks may have experienced um, where you are in order to even create an account, you have to pick kind of what, what server you want to be associated with that changes what name it changes your default kind of news feed. Um, so there are a lot of things that you aren’t going to know out of the box for your organizational profile, you’re gonna need to play with it. And they’re, all these tools are developing a lot faster as they see hundreds of thousands of new users, you know. Um and I think again, back to the values point, they are also experiencing the challenges of lots of users write posts. Said that it only took six days before they had to take swastikas down. So what is it, what are the, what are the platforms doing, what are the values there? How are they moderating or managing content safety users before you say, oh yeah, let’s have our organization profile there.

[00:50:14.09] spk_0:
I did see uh a nonprofit power user and and very popular person, of course Beth Kanter, uh she’s active on mastodon. She didn’t just, she didn’t just take an account, but she’s actively moved there. Um, posting lists of other nonprofit folks to to follow that, you know, that she follows, so that another, another drop another name, J Frost, I see he’s there. Um so I mean that’s just, that’s just two people uh but beth in particular happens to have many hundreds of thousands of followers or had on on twitter. Um so it’s, it’s pretty monumental decision to believe that kind of um that kind of largeness and, and go to something where you know, you’re now, you now you now have zero followers on on day on day one. So that’s a significant decision. Um so I’ve seen and there’s some other folks too, but those, those, those are the ones that come to mind that, that have made the move there and and are active and actively encouraging others to

[00:50:38.88] spk_2:
come,

[00:50:41.86] spk_0:
you

[00:50:42.71] spk_2:
know, and I, and I think not to put Gene on the spot, I know this isn’t what you were prepared to talk about, but

[00:50:49.29] spk_0:
I

[00:51:51.18] spk_2:
think we saw this with facebook and you know, facebook had its own rules about how they would kind of pursue this. But these new, these new platforms will have to have their rules too. And that is organizations who don’t necessarily have a registered trademark but are very clearly like the United Way of Portland or something, you know, and then somebody went on there and created that account already, right? And is trying to sit on it, twitter has experienced, you know, people sitting on the accounts and then um people needing to have access to them and saying that’s actually my name or my organization’s name or you know people that sit on the U. R. L. S. Of like World War three. Oh now there is one, we need that U. R. L. You know whatever um so that that will there there will have to be a course whatever that course maybe for resolution on that. I also I just don’t want people leaving the conversation feeling like they need to spend the next two hours finding these platforms requesting an account and trying to sit on their organization’s name themselves. Like if you want to you can but don’t feel that’s not the takeaway here.

[00:51:56.72] spk_0:
Yeah, don’t do it, don’t do what tony-martignetti did or

[00:51:59.98] spk_2:
just don’t feel obligated that you have

[00:52:01.69] spk_0:
to,

[00:52:03.61] spk_1:
I’m sitting on a post account tony and I’m active on mastodon uh as well. So yeah I I think it’s going to be a tricky thing but for organizations, if you do find somebody using your name, you may want to bring it up and challenge that you talk to a lawyer about that, especially if they’re putting anything in that misrepresents your organization, if they’re acting like they’re spoofing your organization and putting out some content that’s not true or bad for you, make sure you put a stop to that

[00:52:34.39] spk_0:
I guess there are people who would do that and just hope to make some money at it Like

[00:52:40.35] spk_2:
there’s definitely money to be made. You

[00:52:44.04] spk_0:
know, if I get the ford motor company or Tesla or something, you know, I’ll be happy to sell it to you for $150,000 or well a million and a half seems to be my price. So

[00:53:08.96] spk_2:
I mean we see that with U. R. L. S already right. People just buy lots of U. R. L. S. Waiting for somebody to create a product called like the or uh, the oreo slushy. Great. Now we invented it. We need to buy that U. R. L. From you, you know? All

[00:53:09.20] spk_0:
right.

[00:53:10.19] spk_2:
We’re all in the wrong business. Let’s just go buy a bunch of

[00:53:29.93] spk_0:
alright, um, amy anything more? We should talk about mastodon. Oh, I did want to just clarify for folks because you mentioned mastodon, you have to select a server. It’s really just to me it’s a community. sure, but there are only about 10 of them. It’s not like there’s a knitting community and a and a rock climbing and a soccer, you know, it’s not like that. Not yet. But I don’t

[00:53:39.52] spk_2:
want to use the word community and have folks get to that first page and see the word server and have no idea where the word, you know, But yes, you’re right. You are, you’re kind of choosing the space. That’s your entry point into the world of mastodon

[00:53:57.09] spk_0:
And there is one with a social good label to it. So Beth Kanter is at Beth Kanter dot Social Good something.

[00:54:03.76] spk_2:
It’s

[00:54:04.20] spk_0:
like you said it it affects your

[00:54:06.10] spk_2:
your name

[00:54:06.92] spk_0:
affects your screen name, your your handle your I. D. Yeah.

[00:54:57.74] spk_2:
Um I the only last thing that I’ll add in our final minutes here is a very long time ago, people have been like O G listeners um you know, we used to say, well how would you know what social channels your users are on And you know, we’ve talked about having in your own website for your user profiles or in donation uh forms wherever you might be getting feedback from folks now that they have to put their U R. L. In, but just a checkbox like Oh yeah, we do. You I have a facebook account, an instagram account and whatever, you know, whatever it might be. Um make this is an opportunity to go check those lists and say maybe we should add mastodon on or maybe we should add post or we should update what options were actually providing. So so that you could notice, oh, there are a lot more people now here. Maybe it’s worth us looking at that platform. Right. So if you’re doing some year end data cleaning, look at your at your profile forms or your feedback forms where you might say, what tool, you know, what are their channels are you on and add some more of these newer tools.

[00:55:20.84] spk_0:
Amy sample ward Ceo of N 10 for the time being. She’s at

[00:55:26.18] spk_2:
they

[00:55:45.50] spk_0:
are at amy R. S Ward and Gene Takagi, principal attorney at the neo nonprofit and exempt organizations law group for the time being at g tech, but also you’ll find him on mastodon and post amy. Thank you jean, thank you very much.

[00:55:47.74] spk_2:
Thanks so much. tony I really do want to do shows together with jean.

[00:55:51.47] spk_0:
No, I concur yes, that’s uh that’s a good idea. Well let’s make sure we do another couple of these this year.

[00:55:57.73] spk_2:
Perfect,

[00:56:27.95] spk_0:
alright and again, happy new year. Next week. Erica mills Barnhart on common communications conundrums. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media, is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 19, 2022: The Tech That Comes Next

 

Amy Sample Ward & Afua Bruce: The Tech That Comes Next

Social impact orgs, technology developers, funders, communities and policy makers can all do better at technology development, argue Amy Sample Ward and Afua Bruce in their new book, “The Tech That Comes Next.”

 

 

 

 

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[00:02:21.94] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of pseudo ag raffia if I had to write the words you missed this week’s show the tech that comes next social impact orgs, technology developers, funders, communities and policymakers can all do better at technology development for greater equity, argue Amy sample Ward and Bruce in their new book, The tech that comes next tony take two heading to the Holy Land. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like 3D but they go one dimension deeper. It’s my pleasure to welcome Amy sample Ward returning she’s the ceo of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor there at AMY sample ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward and to welcome Bruce. She is a leading public interest technologist who has spent her career working at the intersection of technology policy and society. She’s held senior science and technology positions at data kind, the White House, the FBI and IBM She’s at a few a underscore Bruce who is a F. U. A. Together they’ve co authored the book the tech that comes next how change makers, philanthropists and technologists can build an equitable world. Their book is at the tech that comes next dot com. Amy welcome to nonprofit radio Thanks

[00:02:26.04] spk_1:
for having us.

[00:02:27.35] spk_2:
I’m glad to

[00:02:28.07] spk_1:
hear what you

[00:02:29.25] spk_0:
think both of you for the first time. Very nice to meet you. Glad to have you.

[00:02:34.51] spk_2:
I’m so excited to be here.

[00:02:53.06] spk_0:
Thank you, excited. That’s terrific. You may be more excited than I am. I don’t know, but I know I’m very excited. I’m very pleased. I already said I was pleased, excited. Is excited is even better than pleased. Thank you. Uh let’s start with you since people know AMY sample ward voice. Um I feel like we should start with a definition of technology the way you to see it.

[00:03:45.79] spk_2:
Absolutely technology can mean many things to many different people and even when people just simply hear the word of technology here, the word technology contra and hope of the future and assistive devices that may transform our world, but it can also bring up feelings of in trepidation and confusion and so in the book, when we talk about technology, we define it very broadly as to what our tools that exist to help us really exist in the world. Um and so this can be anything from digital systems and websites and like AI for example, but it’s also more basic things such as you know, pay deeper or other tools that are just used. And so we define it extremely broadly in the book. The focus of the book does focus on digital technologies though and really looking at adoption and use and development of digital technologies especially as it relates to the social impact sector

[00:04:07.28] spk_0:
and what what troubles you about our relationship to technology?

[00:04:36.38] spk_2:
Um, well I am an engineer, a computer engineer specifically. And so I love technology. I love being in technology. I love doing all sorts of things with technology. I love designing new ways to use technology and figuring out how to design technology to support new ways of interact that we have. I think one of the things that

[00:04:41.22] spk_1:
does

[00:05:34.13] spk_2:
give me pause though is how some see technology or some try to position technology as the be all and end all the magic solution that we could have to solve all of our problems. And that if we simply find the right technology, if we simply insert technology into any societal problem that we’re facing, that that technology will magically fix whatever we have been facing. And that’s simply not true technology not a natural phenomenon. It is something that we could create. It’s something that we should be intentionally creating to minimize bias to make sure that technology is developed and used in inclusive ways and really does enhance what we want to do as humans, which is hopefully live well together in community. Um and not just be used as some big tool to force uh different, often um different, often disproportionately impacting outcomes

[00:05:45.54] spk_0:
and you have a lot to say about development specifically more more equitable development.

[00:07:43.75] spk_2:
Yes, absolutely. Um I think equitable development of technology is something that can and should be continuing to grow. I think historically, especially when we look at the past several decades of the rise of digital technologies and technology more broadly the um the power, the money, the education has been concentrated in one group and a lot of other groups, it includes a lot of historically underrepresented or overlooked communities um based on ethnicity, based on gender identity, based on sexuality, based on ability, physical ability, mental ability or more um have really been left out or forgotten about. And so when we talk about a more inclusive design process and more inclusive development process for technology, we’re talking about one being more inclusive to who is actually allowed in the room when we talk about technology design. So who do we see as capable of being technologist um and who have who has those abilities to engage that way, but also recognizing that because technology does not exist alone, but because technology doesn’t exist in a vacuum, because technology can’t magically solve all of our problems on our own. Even if you’re not a technologist, you should be at the table in some of these design conversations because you are part of communities that have needs and those needs should be articulated at the start of the design process. You might understand a particular subject matter. I think in the book we talk about using technology in the education space, in the food space in other spaces as well, you may have some of that knowledge that is critical to making sure that the technology supports the overall goals of those sectors. And so it is important that as we think about being inclusive in developing technology, we make space for not just different types of people who are able to be technologists, but also different types of expertise that we need in that developed process.

[00:08:09.00] spk_0:
So you’re not so pleased with the model where rich, privileged white males develop technology develop, identify what’s going to be solved and how best to solve it. I I assume that that model is not working for you.

[00:08:27.26] spk_2:
I would say I would go even further than

[00:08:30.25] spk_0:
going out and

[00:08:30.92] spk_2:
it’s not working for most of us. Um so it is not working for most of us to have the power concentrated in that

[00:08:52.64] spk_0:
way. Okay. And in fact, uh someone see, I don’t know who wrote which sentences, but somebody wrote. We can’t continue to perpetuate the belief that those with the most money know best. I don’t know, maybe your editor put that in. You may not even be one of the two of you. I don’t know. Maybe

[00:08:57.13] spk_2:
I

[00:08:58.76] spk_0:
trust

[00:09:36.43] spk_2:
me amy and I spent many, many hours on many, many aspects of writing and editing to make sure that what is in the book. We both stand behind. And so absolutely with that sentence. Something that I think we we both stand behind. Um We can’t let you said we can’t let one small population in this case rich privileged white men be the ones who design all of the technology and decide all of the outcomes for everyone. We really need to. And in the book we talk a lot about how it’s so important, why it is so important to go back to communities and communities who understand their needs to understand their priorities and let communities drive that process. That would then include um policymakers. That then includes funders that that includes um technologists themselves and that includes

[00:09:53.21] spk_0:
uh

[00:09:54.53] spk_2:
the leaders and employees at social impact organizations.

[00:09:58.85] spk_0:
Another aspect of it is that just what’s what problems get solved? What what what gets attention?

[00:10:06.18] spk_2:
Absolutely. And um I think we have lots of ideas on this, but I have been talking for so long. Um I would love to pass it.

[00:10:29.88] spk_0:
We’ll get a simple word gets amy sample Ward will get their chance. Okay. Um Alright, if you insist for All right. Um Okay, if we have to go to Amy Now. All right. Uh You say somebody wrote this sentence. Uh Exactly related to what I was just saying. We dream of community centered work that builds from community centered values and there’s a lot of emphasis on going back to values. Um Why don’t you uh just sort of introduce us to the some of those values amy

[00:14:05.53] spk_1:
sure. Happy to. um I think that you know one thing we say in the book and we’ve we’ve enjoyed getting to talk to a lot of groups about since the book has come out is that everything we do as people is centered on values, but often times we don’t talk about them, we don’t make sure that our values are aligned when we start working on something. And so then those values become a some and I think we’ve all heard many different puns about what happens when you operate on assumption. Right. And so that’s that’s kind of part and parcel of also assuming that the only people that can make technology are people with certain degrees or that have a certain amount of money or that you know look a certain way. Um again that that’s those are values that we’re not talking about and that we need to talk about so that we can be really intentional about what we want to focus on. Um and in the book, you know of who has already been speaking to some of those values that there’s important role and we need to prioritize lots of different lived experience as an important part of any technology project. Um that a lot of different people should be involved in every single stage of that process, not like at the end, once we build something and we like pull the pull the little cover off and are like today we built it, what do you think there should be no pulling the cover off? You know, everyone should have already been part of it and known it was being built this whole time. Um but also values that I think are important to can it name early in the conversation around accessibility, so much of the barriers and the walls around technology projects that are there, you know again, whether people are talking about them explicitly or not that are maintaining this this false reality, that only certain people can be involved are coming from a place of saying oh we speak a certain way we use these acronyms. We we talk about things without slowing down for other people to be involved. So what does accessibility look like? Not just that a tool could be used with a system of you know devices but really that you are not using jargon that you’re making sure things are being held at the time of day when those folks that you want involved can be there. Um that child care is provided that your user group meetings, you know every level that you are operating in ways that really do make things accessible to everyone. Um and I think another value that we like to talk about early in conversations is the book is kind of a big idea like the world is not the world we have right now, like what if it was not this, what if it was equitable and just and wonderful. Um, and I know you want to talk about the illustrations colorful uh, you know, so to get there. It’s not like two steps. It’s not okay. That’ll be on like the 2024 plan, right? It’s a lot of work. And so technology and the relationship and expectations we put on it just like social change are that we can make incremental right now immediate changes and at the same we can be working on really big changes. The shifts that get us to a very different world that we have to do both. We can’t just say, well let’s live with harmful technologies and and harmful realities until we can all of a sudden just change over to the like non harmful one. Um, you know, we need to make changes today as we’re building for bigger change.

[00:16:31.93] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They have a bi weekly newsletter that I get. It’s called on message and they had something interesting in the, in the last one, it was five ways to find the timely hook and I’ve talked about news hooks with them that can be a great opportunity for you to be heard when there is some kind of a news hook. So how do you find these timely hooks, couple of their ideas track recognition days and months. I just did that in august, it was national make a will month and I did a bunch of content around that and there was, you know, there are days and months for everything like pickled day and a lot. So you can search for, you can search for the the recognition days and months, find something that fits with your work. Another one was just staying current with the news. They said they were gonna send their e newsletter on the day that queen Elizabeth died but they thought better of it because you’re not gonna be able to get people’s attention. People are just gonna be deleting emails more rapidly because they’re consumed with the death of the queen. So they held off a day or two. Um, and tying to a trend is another one that they suggested. Uh and they give the example of when um including salaries in job postings was trending and they used the example of somebody who actually wrote contrary to that idea. But it was timely because it was something that lots of people were talking about. So there’s a couple of ways of identifying the hooks, You can get their newsletter on message. Of course you go to turn hyphen two dot c o. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission now back to the tech that comes next. How is it that technology is not neutral? Amy

[00:16:36.71] spk_1:
well,

[00:16:37.09] spk_0:
humans, humans,

[00:17:26.74] spk_1:
I don’t think humans have the capacity to be neutral. And we are the ones creating technology. I mean even before digital technologies. You know, the number of um, pieces of farm equipment that could be considered technology, you know, humans built those that kill people who are left handed because the tool was built by right handed people to be used with your right hand, right? Like there’s there’s not a lot of evidence that humans can be neutral. And so then you add to that that we’re building it with a often very small group of people not talking about values for something that is meant to be you know, used in a different context with different people. It’s it just doesn’t have the capacity to be neutral. Let’s

[00:17:43.78] spk_0:
take something that’s so ubiquitous. It’s an easy example. Let’s take facebook. How is so somebody’s facebook is there, you can use it or not use it. How is that not just a neutral entity sitting there for you to use or not use,

[00:19:31.46] spk_1:
I mean you are welcome to use or not use facebook but just because you have the choice to use something or not use, it doesn’t mean it’s neutral. The platform is collecting your data is selling your data is deciding whether and how you can use the tool to connect with other people or to create groups, right? It is not allowing you the control over how your data and and use of the platform goes. So it’s kind of a false choice really. Um and for a lot of people, it is very much a false choice. There. There isn’t the feeling that they cannot use it if it’s the only quote unquote free tool that they could use to find certain resources or to otherwise, you know, talk and stay in communication with certain people, but at what cost, you know, and I think that’s the kind of conversation we’re trying to spark in the book is technology isn’t neutral, we just accept that and then we say and so at what cost at what harm are people having to make these choices around how they navigate technology? And we we have never presupposed in this book or in our lives that facebook or any other platform is going to necessarily make the choices that are best for the community and that’s why policymakers have an entire chapter in the book. You don’t need to be a text specialist or have a who is you know, technical background to be a policymaker that’s making smart protective policies that for users we need to say, hey people should be able to access and protect and restrict their data. Let’s make some policies around that. Right? Because the platforms are not going to make that policy themselves that that restricts them. Um and so I think again, all of these different groups together, get us to the tools that we need and not just the technology developers themselves,

[00:19:56.28] spk_0:
a few anything you want to add to that. Uh My my question about why facebook is not a neutral tool.

[00:20:50.18] spk_2:
I I think Amy gave a really good overview as to why technology and facebook in this case is not neutral. I think um you know, a lot of people now you’ll hear say they algorithm made me see it, the algorithm didn’t make me see something and that just also goes to the fact that someone has programmed the algorithm, someone has decided what will be given more weight or what will be given less weight, what will be emphasized won’t be emphasized. And so that then drives your interactions and the biases that the programmers have or the stated goals that the owners of the platform have then get seen to encoded into the technology that you use, whether it’s facebook or any other platform that then can affect how you interact, even if you do decide to often to using the technology as Amy mentioned, you always well not always, but you often have a choice as to which technology you want to use, what platform you want to log into, you want to engage with or not, but once you’re there, your choices are often limited in ways you might not realize because of the fact that technology is not neutral.

[00:21:20.02] spk_0:
We’re getting into the idea of oppressive systems which which the book talks about for you wanna explain. So, facebook may very well be an example, but what what what what’s oppressive systems generally,

[00:23:01.71] spk_2:
you know, I think one of the underlying themes of our book is that technology can really be used to enhance goals and to sort of enhance missions, and we argue in the book that we want to, you know, social impact organizations, especially communities to find ways for technology to enhance their mission, to help them accomplish their goals more often. But the reality is that technology again sits on top of people because it’s created by people and so to the egg extent in which extent to which um there are oppressive systems and society, whether that’s around how people get jobs or access education or access other resources, um that is then I can just be translated into the technology systems that then help facilitate our lives. It’s the same principles for different sort of outdated policies that have been rooted in unequal access. For example, if you just take those policies and write code then um that directly relates to policies, the new system, this technical system you’ve created has those same oppressive oppressive aspects in that system. And so again, when we talk about designing technology does need to come back to what communities are we designing for? Are we talking to them? Are we letting communities really drive that work? And through the development process are we really keeping in mind some of the historical context, some of the social context, some of the knowledge about biases and how that appears in different technology and what ties doesn’t have to how organizations function and how policymakers do their work, Um what we need to be funding to make sure that we have the time and the money to invest in a more inclusive process.

[00:25:40.82] spk_1:
I just want to add as I was talking about that um, and kind of trying to like hear our own conversation while while we’re in it and to share the reminder that while of course like facebook is this giant huge technology platform. Um, we are also talking about technologies that nonprofits make, you know, an organization that decided to have their staff or hire a web designer to help build something on their website that allowed users to complete their profile or to donate on their website. All of these things that organizations are doing with technology is also developing technology, right? It also needs to be inclusive. It should also have a lot of your community members and users part of that process the whole way, right. This isn’t just for for profit giant tech companies to hear this feedback, this is everyone including the way we fund our own technology inside of organizations, the way we prioritize or build or don’t prioritize or you know, don’t build technology and when we, when we think of it that way and you know, it’s just so easy, I think or I think it is easy to to say, oh my gosh, facebook is an oppressive platform, all of these things are horrible. It’s done all of these things. We can, you know, we could search for news articles from a decade of issues, right? But that kind of shifts the attention. Um, and acts like we as organizations don’t have any blame to share in that not that we’re sharing in facebook’s blame, but like we too are part of making not great decisions around technology, you know. Um there’s an organization that I I experienced this as a user on their website and had to give them some feedback that there they collected demographics as you’re creating your profile super common to do right? Um, their race and ethnicity category for like all humans that would answer this category only had four options total of all of the races and ethnicities in the world. There were four. Not one of those options was multiracial, not one of those was other. Let me tell you the thing you didn’t list here, right? You had to pick required question with four radio

[00:25:52.25] spk_0:
buttons.

[00:26:29.98] spk_1:
That’s that is that is harmful, right? Like you and maybe there was a good reason, not a good reason. Maybe there was a reason that you felt, you know, your funder makes you report in those four categories. I totally understand how hard it is to like manage your work as well as meeting all these funder reporting requirements. That’s something we talk about the book that is an issue. We need to go fix funders reporting requirements, but just because a funder says give us state in these four categories does not mean those are your four categories right? You have an obligation to your car community to be better than that. Um, and so I just want to name that as an example that we’re not just taking the easy route of complaining about facebook, which I would love to do for like five more hours.

[00:26:41.44] spk_0:
No facebook is not even facebook is not even,

[00:26:43.71] spk_1:
you know what I mean? Also trying to name it as something we’re doing inside our organizations to

[00:28:58.50] spk_0:
your example reminds me of the example you cite from jude shimmer who says, you know, she’s filling out a donation, they’re filling out a donation form and there’s no mx option. It was mr mrs Miss, I guess no mx um, by the way, you had several nonprofit radio guests quoted in the book, Jason sham steve hi jude. So I’m glad non profit radio brought these folks to your attention. You know, elevated their voices so that you, you became aware of them because you would not have known them outside. Well that’s elevating voices. That’s exactly exactly right. It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies, technology is an investment. Are you seeing this? You’re investing in staff productivity, you’re investing in your organization’s security donor relations because you’re preserving giving and all the actions and all the person’s preferences and their attendance and things. So you’re certainly investing in your donor relationships, uh, in your sustainability. So because technology is gonna help you preserve your mission into the future. So I don’t want to just throw something out and then not explain it. So see technology as an investment, fourth dimension can help you invest wisely. So, uh, make those savvy tech investment decisions. You can check them out on the listener landing page at Just like three D. But you know, they don’t want to mention deeper. Let’s return to the tech that comes next. All right. So let’s bring it. All right. So no, as I said, facebook is not mentioned in the book. I was choosing that as a ubiquitous example, but let’s bring it to something that is non profit created. Who wants to talk about. I kind of like the john jay college case because I used to do planned giving consulting for john jay, who, which of you knows that story better. Nobody

[00:30:43.41] spk_2:
looking at other resume. But I will, I will happen and talk about the john jay college example. So just briefly for folks who might not have read the book or gotten to that section of the book yet. Um, john jay college, an institution in new york city that had recognized that they had a lot of services geared towards making sure people finished their freshman year and started their second year, but not as many services geared towards people who, um, not as many services geared towards me, making sure people then ultimately graduate. And so specifically they had noticed that they had a large number of students or a not insignificant number of students who completed three quarters of the credits they needed to graduate but didn’t ultimately complete their degree and graduate. They partnered Data kind, which is an organization that provides data science and ai expertise to other profits and government agencies. Um so they worked with those data scientists to really understand their issue to look at the 20 years of data that the academic institution had collected. The data. Scientists ran about two dozen models, I think it was and ended up coming up with ended up developing a specific model specific tool for john jay college To use that identified students who are at risk of dropping out and potential interventions. The John Jay College staff then made the final determination as to what intervention would be done and how that would be done. And two years after this program was started at John Jay College credits the program with helping additional nine 100 students graduate. Um and so that is, I think, you know, one of the examples that we’re talking about of really the technology coming together with the subject matter experts really being used to enhance the mission and then really again, technology and humans working together to make sure that the outcomes are our best for everyone.

[00:31:04.33] spk_0:
There’s some takeaway there too in regard to ethics, the use of the data collection and use of the data. Can you talk about that? Absolutely,

[00:31:51.44] spk_2:
Absolutely, absolutely. As we think about data collect data collection data use data analysis, I think in general, especially in the social impact space, you want to make sure that you got consent when you collect the data that you’re collecting it in ways that make sense, that you’re not necessarily over collecting um you’re storing in the right way is protected in the right ways. Um and then as you need to do something with it, you can you can access it, you can use it as a way to foster communication across a different departments. I think one thing that was really exciting and talking to the john jay college staff as they said this program in that development actually force conversations across departments which if you’ve ever done any work at an academic institution, you know, working across departments on campus can be challenging and so sometimes the data can force those conversations and can also help strengthen arguments for the creation or um termination of different programs.

[00:32:15.79] spk_0:
Thank you because ethics is one of the one of your core values ethical considerations around around technology development and

[00:33:23.63] spk_1:
I think that’s I like that you’re bringing that up tony because I think it reinforces, I mean a fool was saying this, but just to kind of like explain those words when we’re saying that technology is there to help humans, it means that algorithm that was created is not moving forward and sending, you know, a resource or sending an inch invention to a student, it is not there to do the whole process itself, right? It’s there for its portion and then humans are looking at it, they are deciding, you know, who needs, what resources, who needs what intervention. And they then do that outreach right? Versus that idea that I think nonprofits especially think of all the time. Like if we just got the tool then this whole like thing will be solved and it’ll just like somehow run its course, you know, and like the robots will be in charge and that’s not great. We don’t need to do that. We’re not looking for robots to be in charge but also in this really successful example of technology being used, it’s still required people, you know, the technology isn’t here to replace them. It’s to do the part that we don’t have the time to do. Like crunch all those numbers and figure those things out and then the people are doing what people are meant to do, which is the relationship side, The intervention side, the support side, you know. Um and

[00:33:43.70] spk_0:
I just want to kind

[00:33:44.49] spk_1:
Of separate the two right?

[00:33:46.71] spk_0:
The tool was to flag those who are at greatest risk of not graduating after they have I think three quarters of the points or credits. Uh so so that

[00:33:58.99] spk_1:
that

[00:34:13.73] spk_0:
right, that that’s an ideal day. That’s an ideal uh data mining artificial intelligence task. Just flag the folks who are at greatest risk because we’ve identified the factors like I don’t remember what any of the factors were. G. P. A. I think was one. But whatever the factors are identified them now flag these folks. Now it’s time for a human to intervene and give the support to these to this population so that we can have 900 more folks graduating than than we expect would have without without the use of the tool.

[00:35:19.70] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. And just to continue to build on what Amy was saying. I think sometimes as nonprofits are considering technology or maybe hearing pitches about why they should use technology or why they should select a particular technology. It can be overwhelming because sometimes the perception is that if you adopt technology it has to then take over your system and and rem move sort of the human aspect of running your nonprofit and that’s simply not the case. You can always push back as to what those limits need to be sort of in general but also very specifically for your organization for your community. What makes sense? What doesn’t make sense? And so really prioritizing as Amy said, the using the technology to take advantage and to do those tasks that or just simply more efficient and computers are more capable of doing that while you use the humans involved for the more human touch and some of those more societal factors I think really um it’s important to emphasize that as leaders of social impact organizations, as leaders of nonprofits, you have that agency to sort of understand and to decide where the technology is used and where it isn’t used.

[00:36:57.67] spk_1:
Yeah, we, we were really conscious when we were working on the book to disrupt this pattern that you know, it’s like you learn a new word and then you see it in everything that you read. Um once, once we talk about it here, you’re gonna like go and everything you click on on the internet, you’re going to see it. But technology companies have been trying to sell us for a long time very successfully that their product is a solution and technologies are constantly using that language when you’re looking at their website, when they’re talking to you, you know, this is an all in one crm solution, this whatever, they are not solutions, they are tools and as soon as we, as you know, non profit staff start adopting that, they are the solutions, we then start kind of relinquishing the control, right? And thinking, oh well the solution is that this too, tool has all of this, It is just a tool, you are still the solution right? You are still the human and we, we didn’t want to have that language in the book. So you know, we’re always talking about technology as a tool because with, without humans needing to put it to work, it doesn’t need to exist. We don’t need to have a world that’s trying to make sure we can maintain all of this technology if we don’t need it anymore. Thank you for your service. Like please move along. We don’t, we don’t need that anymore. And that’s okay. We don’t need to feel bad that a tool isn’t needed anymore. It’s not needed. Great. We have different needs now, you know, um and changing that kind of dynamic and relationship inside organizations.

[00:37:24.77] spk_0:
A Crm database is a perfect example of that. It’s not gonna, it’s not gonna build relationships with people for you. It’s just gonna keep track of the activities that you have and it’s gonna identify people’s giving histories and event attendance and help them ticket etcetera. But it’s not going to build personal relationships. They’re gonna lead to greater support whether it’s volunteering or being a board member or donating whatever, you know, it’s

[00:37:39.88] spk_1:
not the mission, It’s not the food at the gala. Even if it sold the tickets to the gala right? Like it isn’t at all.

[00:38:13.47] spk_0:
So I, so I gathered so the Wiley did most of the writing on the book is what I gather because I managed a couple of quotes and nobody like nobody claimed them. So um and also the I I see there’s only two pictures, I like a lot of pictures in books. You only have two pictures and then you repeat the same two pictures from the beginning, You repeat them at the end and and they’re in black and white, they’re not even four color pictures. So there’s a little shortcomings

[00:38:15.70] spk_1:
that’s because in the book they could only be black and white, but in the e book they can, the one that’s meant to be in color can be in color.

[00:38:25.00] spk_2:
And also we knew that our readers have imaginations of their own and the words that we have on the page would evoke such strong images we didn’t want

[00:38:33.81] spk_0:
to overly

[00:38:34.58] spk_2:
provide images in the book.

[00:40:08.82] spk_0:
Very good, well played. Okay, it’s time for Tony’s take Two. I’m headed to the Holy Land in november. I’m traveling to Israel for two weeks and I’m wondering if you have suggestions of something that I should see? We can crowdsource my my sight seeing a few things that are already on my itinerary, of course the old city in Jerusalem um Haifa and the Baha’I gardens the Dead Sea and uh mitzpe ramon. You may have some other ideas, things that uh you found or places to eat, maybe that would be that would be great little uh terrific places that I should try in either Jerusalem or tel Aviv I’ll be spending a lot of time in, in those two places but also near these other, these other ones that I mentioned to Haifa So if you know a good restaurant eatery, I’d appreciate that too. You could get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com. I’d be grateful for your Israel travel suggestions and anything else that you may recommend about Israel travel. I haven’t been there, so I’d be grateful to hear from you that is tony steak too. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the tech that comes next with Amy sample ward and a few a Bruce. Let’s let’s talk about another story. Talk about, let’s talk about, yeah, you, you all pick one, pick one of your case cases stories to talk about that that you like,

[00:44:39.78] spk_1:
I can talk about one since the flu already talked about one, but I was thinking because you already said it earlier, the food sector, so there’s one in there on rescuing leftover cuisine, an organization founded in new york. Um, and I think a pretty classic example of non profit trajectory like someone has personal lived experience they want to address, you know, make sure people don’t have the experience they had and create an organization kind of accidentally like they just start doing the work and they’re like, wait, what am I doing? Wait, we’ve just created a nonprofit, you know, and and kind of want to build because they start to have success actually doing the thing that they set out to do. Um, but like many nonprofits you reach the limit of human scale, like you get to the, this is only the number of people I can personally talk to or physically carry food, you know from one restaurant to to a shelter or whatever. Um and realize, oh we’re gonna need some tools to help us make this thing work. Um and grow beyond just the handful of initial people and also like many nonprofits, that was a very reactive process, right? Like oh gosh, we need a calendar tool, here’s one, oh gosh, we need a, you know, a phone tool, here’s one and not what is the best, you know, what what do we really need? How do we solve these goals? So they found themselves a few years in with very common nonprofit sector, like little patchwork, you know, all different kinds of things. They’ve kind of forced and often the the integration to use the technical term, the integration between tools was humans like answered the phone and then typed it into the tool because the person on the phone doesn’t have access to type it into the schedule er right? Like I they were having to be the tech integrations as humans, which meant humans were not doing human work, right? Humans were doing work that that the robots should be able to do. Um and that’s when they brought in more strategic dedicated technology. Um staff helped to build and again, what they didn’t really realize at first is they were building a product, you know? Um I think this is a bigger conversation of you and I have with organizations is we are we have products, we’ve built products. It’s not bad. And I think especially in the US, we’ve come to think that product is like a for profit word and we will have nothing to do with it. But what it just means is like it’s a package, it is a thing that’s doing what it’s meant to do. And we should think about how we make sure it works and who can access it. And you know, we bring some strategy to it. Um, but their process is really what drew us to including them in the book. They had a really inclusive process where all the different folks from, you know, that were users. So the volunteers who physically like went to the restaurant and picked up that food and and took it to an agency, the people in the agencies, the people in the kitchen of the restaurants, all those different people were able to say, oh, I wish the tool did this. I wish that I could do this every day when I need to pick up food. I wish I could get this kind of message. Everyone was able to give that feedback and then see everybody else’s requests so that as the staff and community and the tech team prioritized, okay, well what works together? What can we build next? What’s in line to be built next? Everyone had transparency. Everyone could see that everyone understood, okay, my thing is last or like I know why my thing is last, right? Like people could really see and give feedback and be part of the process the whole time kind of back to the very beginning of this conversation with us said, even if they were not the technical developers themselves, they had important expertise, Right? It was good to know, oh, these five different restaurants all want the same thing, what’s happening, right? Like what is the thing that’s happening for restaurants trying to offer food? Let’s figure that out. We know who to get feedback from, you know, um, we’re just such a wonderful example of people really having everyone involved in the whole process. Um, and as they have done that and continue to do that, they were able to move people out of, you know, answering the phone to type into the calendar and move people into human jobs. Um, grew the organization, it’s now in eight different cities in different states. Um, and that’s just more of the mission happening, right? Because technology was invested in in the right kind of way.

[00:45:02.73] spk_0:
So takeaways are transparency in prioritizing development inclusiveness, including

[00:45:10.61] spk_1:
the, including

[00:45:11.71] spk_0:
the community, all the, all the different

[00:45:14.65] spk_1:
people

[00:45:15.63] spk_0:
who are impacted, giving them agency

[00:45:18.80] spk_1:
to

[00:45:19.70] spk_0:
contribute and not not have it developed.

[00:45:24.33] spk_1:
Yeah. And they had,

[00:45:25.28] spk_0:
I don’t know how much

[00:46:40.74] spk_1:
of this made it into the book, but you know, in talking with them and having conversations, you know, there were a number of times where the thing they were hearing from, all these different users that needed to be prioritized wasn’t something as staff, they maybe would have identified or at least prioritized, but when you’re really listening and having the community drive that development, you know, is that what you’re investing in is actually going to make it better for your community, right? It’s the thing that they’re asking for versus you saying, Gosh, we have, you know, what’s next on our development docket, wonder what we could build, Like let’s think of something you’re not kind of guessing, you know, exactly what needs to be built and that’s kind of reinforcing for your users that you are listening that you are valued that they want this to be as good of an expiry as possible for you, right, Which is really kind of um bringing people in closer and and I think we all know, especially tony as the fundraiser, like keeping people, it’s a lot easier than bringing in new people. So if you can keep those partners in great, you know, you keep those volunteers in instead of having to recruit new ones because you’re burning them out because they don’t like working with you, it’s not a good experience, you know? Um yeah,

[00:47:26.71] spk_0:
let’s talk about the funding, but but not from the funders side because most of the very few of our listeners are on the, on the funding side, they’re on the grantee side and so from the, well the book, you talk about social impact organizations, but this is tony-martignetti non profit radio not tony-martignetti social impact organization, radio So so if we could use, please use nonprofits as an example in their funding requests, they’re doing grants, what what can nonprofits do smarter about requesting funds around technology, the development and the use that’s going to be required for the, you know, for the, for the project that they’re trying to get funded.

[00:47:32.08] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:47:32.45] spk_2:
absolutely. This is a question that Amy and I have gotten so many times since the book has come out.

[00:47:42.97] spk_0:
Okay, well I’ll give you a milk toast bland ubiquitous question that not that

[00:49:01.18] spk_2:
it’s a milk toast question, but it is one that is so important to organizations and that even for non profit organizations that have thought about technology before, then the question becomes how are you going to get it funded right? And so, um, it’s an incredibly important question. And so I think that there are a couple of things that non profits can do. One is to seek out funders who are explicitly funding technology, we’ve seen an increase I think over the past several years in different foundations, different companies who are specifically funding technology and so looking for those types of funders. Um, I think it’s really important, I think then another thing to do is to really make the case as we make in the book that um, funding technology is part of funding programs of the organizations and part of funding the running of the organization. Um, it’s not simply an overhead costs. That is a nice to have that. If you get around to it, you can do it, but really you need to have strong technology and data practices in order to design your programs to run your programs. Um people, you know, are used to being out in the world and interacting with technology in certain and so when they come to your nonprofit, they still probably would like to have a website that sees them that recognizes them. That’s useful. They might like to know how to get connected to other people in your community, other staff members and what those communication technologies might look like and more. And so really looking for ways to write technology into program design as non profits are doing that

[00:49:25.77] spk_1:
as well. And

[00:49:25.97] spk_2:
then I think thirdly, just being connected with other nonprofits through organizations such as N 10 and listening to other great podcasts such as this one um to hear what, what other nonprofits are doing and what’s been successful as well. And applying some of those techniques to your own organization.

[00:49:47.95] spk_0:
I feel bad that I gave short Shrift to the, to the foundation listeners. So, I mean there’s there’s lessons in what you just said. Um, are there one or two other things that we can point out for uh for foundation listeners that to raise their consciousness.

[00:51:25.89] spk_2:
Absolutely. Um, I think one of, I think, you know, there are many things about technology that can be funded, especially with nonprofit organizations. And I really encourage foundations to think about what it means to really fund that inclusive innovation process and to fund when I say innovation. I mean recognizing that version one is might not be perfect. And so funding version 1.1 and 1.2 and version two point oh, is just as valuable as funding version one. We see this all the time in the private sector that, you know, my phone gets updates on a regular basis and I still have a, and that’s okay. And so really wanting to make sure that funders recognize that we don’t need to just create new technology every time for the sake of creating something new, but really allowing the space for that iteration and really adjusting to the community needs is really important. I think also making sure that we’re funding inclusivity and so that can be things such as uh compensating people, you know, from the community for time, um, as they are involved in this development process, making sure that there’s money in the budget for all staff, not just a member of the tech team to get training on technology, but there’s money for all staff to get training on the different technologies that the organization is using. Um, and also the timelines that are given to nonprofits doing their programs allows for that really critical community listening and community input process into developing any technology and then ultimately developing and executing programs,

[00:51:49.02] spk_0:
I’m glad you just used community as an example because I wanted to probe that a little deeper how

[00:51:55.99] spk_1:
I

[00:52:11.32] spk_0:
guess, I guess I’m asking how you define community because you say that, you know, technologists and social impact or eggs and policymakers and communities can can be should be more involved in uh, technology development. How are you defining communities there?

[00:54:23.04] spk_1:
We’re not in a way because technology that N 10 builds for, you know, the community that that we have is very different than um, you know, that would be a bunch of nonprofit staff from mostly U. S. And Canada, but also all over the world, um of all different departments. Right? That that would be the community that intent has, but the community around, um, you know, the equitable giving circle in Portland. Well, that’s Portland’s specific very, you know, geographically different than the N 10 community. Um, it’s folks who can do monthly donations that want to support, uh, you know, black community in Portland, it community is meant to be defined based on what is trying to be built and and for whom it’s meant to be used. Um, and that’s going to be flexible, but I think where it really comes in is what we talked about in the book, in the funding section, but also all of the sections is what does it look like when we expect that transfer to community ownership is the final stage of technology development. Right. And so if that is the final stage, if um the community, you know, owning the technology that was developed by someone, um is the final step well, there needs to be a level of training and an investment that is very different than if you’re planning to keep this privately yourself the whole time, right? If you’re going to turn it over to the community to own it and maintain it, you’re going to be investing in that community in the process in a very different way. You’re going to be including people in a different way. You’re going to be thinking about knowledge transfer, not just technical transfer, right? Um and so that relationship with the community is inherent to the goal at the end. And I think that’s for us, part of what is so important about thinking about that big question of what does it look like for community to really own technology? Like even in the biggest widest sense, because right now, We as users don’t own the Internet, right? Really, there’s there’s 45 million people just in the us that can’t even access broadband. So the idea that the any of these tools, even in the widest biggest, you know, most access sense are are collectively owned isn’t real. And so that goes back to community, but it also goes back to policy, it goes back to how we’re investing in these tools, what values we are even using when we, when we access them? Um, that’s the whole book right there, I guess.

[00:55:00.40] spk_0:
Uh, the book is also, uh, a lot of questions. I always hope to get answers. When I read books this, this book, lots of questions questions at the end of every chapter and then they’re compiled at the end. They’re organized differently at the end. Why did you take that tack?

[00:56:06.65] spk_2:
Absolutely, yes. Our book does perhaps answer some questions, but it does provide questions. And that’s because what this work looks like varies based on the community you’re in based on your nonprofit organization, based on your role as a policy maker based on your roll thunder perhaps. Um, it varies. And so what your specific solution will look like. There’ll be some of the same building blocks, but the actual techniques you use will need to vary. And so the questions that we have at the end of each chapter at the end of the chapter on social impact organizations. For example, there are, I think 25 questions and five of those are questions that you ask someone as a nonprofit can ask of other nonprofits about technology. You as someone as a nonprofit can ask of your funders to start that conversation with some funders that we were just sort of summarizing now. What are specific questions that you should be asking of your funders were specific questions you should be asking of technologists that come to you and say, have we got a solution for you? Um, what are specific questions that you should be asking? Policymakers? Um, within the realm of what’s allowed for nonprofits to do part of the policy making process. And what are some real questions that you can ask of the communities that you serve and the communities you partner with to really get out, what are their needs and how might that tie to some of the technology needs for your organization?

[00:56:43.69] spk_0:
So what have we uh, what haven’t we talked about yet? That, that either of you would like to, uh, you feel like I’ve spent enough time on the well, here, I am asking you and then I’m proposing something. So I’ll cut myself off what, what what would, uh, whatever we talked about yet, either of you. That

[00:58:18.09] spk_1:
I mean, I think one thing that we have experienced is that there are some topics like how do we do this or how do we fund this or how do we make change? Um, you know, there’s some topics that recur throughout a lot of conversations, but ultimately, we have never had the same conversation about the book twice because that’s part of writing a whole book. That’s just questions, you know, and isn’t all the answers that isn’t Oh, great. You know, turn to chapter three where we list the 10 things you need to do tomorrow? Like there are no, I mean there’s probably 100 things, right? But um because of that, what we wanted to do when we wrote the book, even if, you know, we said at the beginning, even if no one reads this but ourselves, we want to feel like we are starting a conversation that we are just going to keep starting and keep having and keep getting closer to figuring out what’s next because it’s gonna be a whole long path. Um, and if it if we’re here to write a how to book that, who are we to write that? Right? Who are we to write the how to book on how we completely change the world? But what if we wrote a book that said, y’all, how do we change the world? Like really truly how let’s go, let’s go figure that out that motivates us. And so if it motivates us, it probably motivates others. And these conversations, I mean, I just love them because this yes, we had some of those recurring themes that all of us think about all the time. But this was a completely different conversation than we’ve had before and that, well, you know, different than we’ll have tomorrow. And I think what we’ve talked about the two of us is when we have

[00:58:31.93] spk_0:
not only not only different, but better,

[00:59:15.21] spk_1:
but when we have opportunities to talk about the book together with folks like you knowing that people are listening, right? Thousands of, of non private radio listeners, we want to, in a way have this be like a practice session for all of them so that when they finish the podcast and they go to their staff meeting, they’re like, hey, a food amy like never had their sentences thought out before they started probably said a million times. The bar isn’t high. I can just start asking questions, right? That’s why we have all the questions at the end. I can just start talking about this. There is no perfect, perfect doesn’t exist. So let’s not worry that I don’t know the exact way to talk about this technology project. Let’s just start talking about it and and get in there and have these conversations that we have almost model that process of just practicing the work of, of changing things.

[00:59:33.45] spk_0:
Anything you would like to uh leave us with anything we haven’t talked about that you would like to,

[01:00:00.54] spk_2:
you know, the subtitle of the book talks about building a more equitable world and we call out a few specific roles. But really I think it’s just important to recognize that we all have a role to play in building a more equitable world. And so if you see something in this world that you want changed. Hopefully this book does give you some real ideas about how you can go about doing that, some real questions to ask to find other people who can help you along that journey because really building an equitable world is an inclusive process and that includes you. So that’s that’s all I would add.

[01:00:43.80] spk_0:
She’s a for Bruce at a few uh underscore Bruce, her co author is Amy sample ward at Amy R S Ward and you’ll find the book the tech that comes next, how change makers, philanthropists and technologists can build an equitable world at the tech that comes next dot com. Amy, thank you very much. Pleasure.

[01:00:46.45] spk_1:
Thanks so much Tony.

[01:00:48.33] spk_2:
Thank you.

[01:01:39.63] spk_0:
You’re welcome. Thank you. Next week. Gene Takagi returns with Trust in nonprofits. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and his music is by scott stein, Thank you for that information Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for July 18, 2022: 600th Show!

 

Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Amy Sample Ward, Gene Takagi, Peter Panepento, & Jagannathan Narayanan: 600th Show!

For this auspicious occasion, we have august personages. My co-host is Claire Meyerhoff. We’ve got live music from Scott Stein. Our contributors, Amy Sample Ward and Gene Takagi are here. Our sponsors, Turn Two Communications and Fourth Dimension Technologies will be dropping in. And we’ll surprise a bunch of folks, The Delightful Dozen. It’s fun and music and celebration. And gratitude.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:10.14] spk_0:
Yeah, hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:12.67] spk_1:
non profit

[00:00:13.43] spk_0:
radio big

[00:00:15.13] spk_1:
non profit

[00:00:15.80] spk_2:
ideas for the

[00:00:17.24] spk_1:
Other 95

[00:00:19.94] spk_0:
on

[00:00:20.13] spk_1:
the aptly named host

[00:00:21.94] spk_0:
of

[00:00:22.18] spk_1:
your favorite abdominal

[00:00:24.94] spk_0:
podcast, you

[00:00:25.66] spk_1:
hear the live

[00:00:26.11] spk_0:
music that can

[00:00:27.55] spk_1:
only mean one

[00:00:28.49] spk_0:
thing,

[00:00:31.04] spk_1:
It’s our 600th show and 12th Jubilee

[00:00:34.99] spk_0:
who

[00:00:41.34] spk_1:
you have a listener of the week Tricia Madrid baker when someone posted on an N 10 discussion, what’s your favorite non profit podcast Tricia was quick on the keyboard and posted the first answer. tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:52.46] spk_3:
radio

[00:01:14.34] spk_1:
and her post got the most likes of any of those second rate suggestions that came after. Uh not that it’s a competition but non profit radio did get the most likes, I have to say. And by the way, for those two past guests who stabbed us in the back by naming second rate podcasts, uh you’re banished, you’ll not be back

[00:01:16.74] spk_3:
but

[00:01:32.54] spk_1:
Tricia Madrid baker from a plastic anemia and Mds International Foundation. Thank you. Tricia for loving non profit radio as your favorite podcast for nonprofits, congratulations you are our listener of the week On the 600th show

[00:01:35.34] spk_4:
And also everybody’s answers in the N- 10 forums are all wonderful and appreciated. Tony is being hyperbolic, just making sure people know

[00:01:44.76] spk_0:
that I

[00:02:25.94] spk_1:
should hope they realize that after, after a couple of beats after a couple of beats So for this 600 show or specific occasion we have August personages my Co host is claire Meyerhoff we’ve got live music from scott stein our contributors, Amy sample Ward, who you just heard defending all the second rate podcasts and Gene Takagi are here, our sponsors turn to communications and fourth dimension technologies will be dropping in and we’ll be surprising a bunch of folks, it’s fun, it’s music, it’s celebration and gratitude. So on Tony’s take two, I’m gonna be saying thank you.

[00:02:44.44] spk_3:
We are sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot co visit them at turn hyphen T W O dot C O. We’re also sponsored by fourth dimension technologies I T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits visit tony dot M a slash four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[00:02:58.84] spk_1:
Oh that mellifluous voice. It can only be Claire Meyerhoff. Welcome Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:03:04.24] spk_3:
Hi tony I love doing your spots. I really do because I used to do spots back in the day when I worked in radio and I don’t do them anymore. So when I get one in front of me, I’m just like, oh I get to read a commercial,

[00:03:22.04] spk_1:
I’m very glad I’m glad you’re with us. She is of course non profit radio as creative Producer, declares the president of the planned giving agency request marketing and philanthropy. Communications and the company is at PG agency dot com. So glad to have you. Creative producer. Thanks,

[00:03:43.44] spk_3:
Thank you Tony, I can’t believe this is your 600th show you are the most prolific and amazing podcaster in the history of podcasts. AmY’s writing that down, she’s gonna put that

[00:03:47.71] spk_1:
it’s

[00:04:20.44] spk_3:
true, my world is radio Right, so, so after radio people started doing podcast. So I’ve been paying attention to podcasts over the years, like I read articles about it and stuff and I see how people try to do podcasts and they fail because they get a committee or something like that and they just can’t even do one podcast And you have done 600, you have done two a week For once a week, I’m sorry, once a week, four Every week of the year 50 a year to offer vacation times 12, 600. It’s, it’s actually mind blowing. It blows my mind. I’m no good at math, but I can do this math. And that math adds up to podcast success.

[00:04:29.09] spk_1:
Thank you. Claire R&R 13,000 plus listeners each week. So thank

[00:04:33.65] spk_3:
you. It’s amazing.

[00:04:44.34] spk_1:
It feels terrific. I have to do one a week. Otherwise I’d be undisciplined. We’d be at like show, I don’t know, 226 or something after 12 years, but one a week, it keeps me disciplined. Let’s bring in Scott Stein Scott Welcome. Glad to have you.

[00:04:53.79] spk_5:
Thank you. Great to be here.

[00:05:13.94] spk_1:
Always a pleasure to have you on the, on the milestone show scott is the composer of our theme song, cheap red wine, which we’ll be hearing later. He’s a Brooklyn, new york based pianist, songwriter, arranger, conductor and music director. He’s got a new album coming out imminently. He’s got a new baby that just happened very recently. And you can find all this at scott stein music dot com scott. So glad to have you.

[00:05:33.24] spk_5:
Oh well, always glad to be here. It it feels like the milestone. It’s like it’s a certain type of summer. It’s a certain time of the summer. It’s like, all right, it’s time to do tony show again. Look forward to it every year.

[00:05:34.66] spk_1:
Every july. Thank you. So, tell us about the new baby. I thought I thought the new album was big news until I learned about the new

[00:05:41.29] spk_5:
baby album

[00:05:42.63] spk_1:
is like, uh, you know, the music is important to tell us about the new baby.

[00:06:21.64] spk_5:
Yeah, I won’t try to compare the two. Uh, so we have a little girl named Aviva, she was born about six weeks ago and she’s just, she’s beautiful and she’s growing and she’s just starting to give us smiles and it’s just, it’s awesome. She’s really wonderful. You might, she’s in the other room so you might occasionally hear her. But yeah, it’s, it’s wonderful. And her big brother is we have a three year old named Eli and he’s been awesome and he’s a great big brother. And it’s just, it’s fun. We’re not sleeping a whole lot. That’s the only thing, but that’s sort of to be expected. So it’s all good

[00:06:27.56] spk_4:
baby, like the piano.

[00:06:29.44] spk_5:
Yeah, actually, right before, right before I came on and I had to do a couple of vocal warm ups just to get ready. So I had her in my lap and was just singing and playing and probably here right now

[00:06:39.91] spk_1:
we can hear her. That’s okay. non profit radio we’re family embracing, not just family

[00:06:44.74] spk_5:
friendly but yeah,

[00:06:46.01] spk_1:
anybody could be family friendly. We’re family embracing and pets to

[00:06:56.74] spk_5:
Indeed it was going to say the other day I was home just practicing piano, my wife was holding her and she was asleep and she didn’t wake up until I started, sorry until I took a break from practicing as soon as I started playing again, it lulled her back to sleep. So

[00:07:02.63] spk_1:
magnificent. Alright, alright. And new album coming

[00:07:38.04] spk_5:
up. Yeah, new record is called Uphill. It’s going to be released next month. That’s august the first single which I’m gonna do later in the show is going to be coming out in about two weeks and we’re gonna do a record release show here in Brooklyn where I live through a, an organization called operation gig which sponsors a bunch of outdoor shows throughout the Ditmas Park and Prospect Park south neighborhoods and so we’re part of that. We’re really excited. That’s august 21st and yes, it’s I’m really excited for people to hear this music. It’s, we’ve been working hard at it and it’s finally ready.

[00:07:58.34] spk_1:
Outstanding. Congratulations, mazel tov on uh, on Aviva And the album Uphill all that info is at scott stein music dot com. Let’s bring in Amy Amy and jean Amy our technology and social media. Hello Hello indeed.

[00:08:01.25] spk_4:
Our

[00:08:06.34] spk_1:
technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 where that auspicious podcast poll was taken their most

[00:08:11.16] spk_4:
special, scientifically valid, you know, statistically valid survey of best podcast in the online forum.

[00:08:18.84] spk_1:
Yeah, well, non profit radio is number one. So obviously that’s all

[00:08:21.61] spk_4:
true. That

[00:08:32.84] spk_1:
is that is all true. Uh their most recent co authored book is the tech that comes next and we have to get you on the show to talk about that. It’s been it’s been your lackluster hosts. Uh Remission.

[00:08:34.26] spk_4:
Yeah. You said we couldn’t be on until you read it. So I guess tony this is you admitting you have not yet read the book.

[00:08:41.64] spk_1:
And they’re also at the sample. They’re also at Amy sample ward dot org And at Amy R. S

[00:08:47.72] spk_5:
Ward

[00:09:12.54] spk_1:
and Gene Takagi are legal contributor, Managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco and it’s that wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com. He’s also a part time lecturer at Columbia University. You’ll find his firm at neo law group dot com and he’s at g Tac glad to have you gene wonderful to be

[00:09:13.44] spk_6:
Here. Tony and congrats, that’s an amazing uh feet 600 podcasts and I’ll second clear and say yeah, number one on my list.

[00:09:24.84] spk_1:
Thank you very much. Thank you and Tricia Madrid baker to our our listener of the week. Number one for her. So look at all the number ones we’ve got

[00:09:32.84] spk_6:
just to see if I can get over the week one day as

[00:09:36.09] spk_1:
well,

[00:09:36.56] spk_0:
jean

[00:09:39.93] spk_1:
your listener of the month. You’re on your contributor of the month, listener of the month. Come on. I

[00:09:45.13] spk_3:
mean

[00:09:46.24] spk_1:
your your bona fide, you’re way beyond bona fide.

[00:09:49.24] spk_6:
I’ve been on 13 years. I’ve never been listening for the week. So

[00:09:52.36] spk_4:
jean is hoping you have one of those hallway, you know, things with the little engraved gene really wants one to say 11 week. He was the listener of the week.

[00:10:09.14] spk_1:
Okay, I see the listener of the wall. The wall, but I need to install in my home in my background. Okay.

[00:10:11.05] spk_3:
That’s a little Polaroid picture of jean. Like when I worked at Roy Rogers in high school, they had ranch hand of the month and you had your little Polaroid and your thing and I never became ranch hand of the month.

[00:10:20.14] spk_6:
That’s exactly what I want,

[00:10:27.14] spk_1:
Claire. Hey scott.

[00:10:28.37] spk_3:
We’d we’d

[00:10:31.04] spk_1:
love to have some music. What do you think you do a first do a first song for us from? This is gonna be from Uphill, the new album.

[00:10:51.84] spk_5:
Yeah, this is gonna be the single. Um full disclosure. I think I may have played one or two of the songs that you’re about to hear on the podcast before. So hopefully your audience is okay with a repeat performance. Um I can’t remember if I did this one or not, to be honest. But this is gonna be the single. It’s gonna be out in a couple weeks. It’s called on my way. And sexually the 1st, 1st tune on the record

[00:11:01.64] spk_1:
on my way.

[00:11:07.14] spk_5:
Mm

[00:11:09.84] spk_0:
mhm.

[00:11:40.14] spk_2:
I’m on my way. I could still find my way out of the ordinary. Back into the free. Gonna take some of that comfort, slip out of the step all the way outside my back to push me through the soul.

[00:11:50.04] spk_0:
Okay,

[00:12:15.04] spk_2:
I’m on my way through the storm and the swell as for the destination. It’s too early to tell there in a while and to sell this ain’t a river or trust. Ain’t no grow or treating this like baby. We only do what we must and I cannot stem the time. I can only stand in one

[00:12:18.70] spk_0:
and

[00:12:18.85] spk_2:
then I grab a hold so we won’t put

[00:12:21.62] spk_0:
me under.

[00:12:45.84] spk_2:
I’m breathing different And now we’ve got a swagger in my stride. I’m walking through new Orleans, the mighty river at my side but knew all the smells the scars now in the shaping its form with just the, the rhetoric reminds our of memories of the storm.

[00:13:02.44] spk_0:
Mhm Yes.

[00:13:03.84] spk_2:
Amen.

[00:13:31.04] spk_0:
Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah, gonna take all

[00:13:33.94] spk_2:
that. I take all that. I was

[00:13:36.31] spk_0:
trying to pull

[00:13:39.34] spk_2:
myself together. The right kind of

[00:13:40.43] spk_0:
Barnes,

[00:13:47.84] spk_2:
take all of my love, take all of my sins. Ain’t no use trying to pass up the mess that I

[00:13:50.82] spk_0:
feel,

[00:13:55.34] spk_2:
but I will be back. I will be better be better than I was

[00:14:30.44] spk_0:
the day before. Mhm. Mhm Yeah, beautiful scott.

[00:14:34.64] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Swagger in my stride.

[00:14:36.45] spk_5:
That’s terrific.

[00:15:05.64] spk_1:
Alright, alright. We’ve got more music coming from uh from scott’s gonna play a couple more tunes for us, including of course, the the ultimate theme, the theme song, cheap red wine coming up, coming up later to thank you scott. Cool. So clara like so claire a

[00:15:07.17] spk_3:
mute myself.

[00:15:14.64] spk_1:
Thank you for your thoughtful, thoughtful. But for words about the 600th show,

[00:15:57.24] spk_3:
The 600 show is amazing and you’ve had so many guests on over the years and I thought that I would do something in honor of this jubilee and create something called the delightful dozen for your dozen years Now. I haven’t now I have an official unofficial theme song. The delightful doesn’t are kind of just, you know, 12 people that I asked Tony to, to think of who were really truly delightful, dynamic, wonderful guests. And we wanted to highlight them on this 12th jubilee. And I’m really digging the word jubilee. So delightful dozen,

[00:15:59.69] spk_1:
anybody can

[00:16:03.34] spk_3:
have an anniversary, anybody but a jubilee. And you know, the Queen, they just stole that from you over and you in England

[00:16:08.22] spk_1:
Queen. Yeah, she she counts to.

[00:16:11.34] spk_3:
She borrowed your idea. So yeah, we

[00:16:14.59] spk_1:
don’t have a podcast. Queen doesn’t have a podcast.

[00:16:16.56] spk_3:
No, not that we know of

[00:16:18.34] spk_1:
she Exactly, there’s her problem. She’s got no marketing,

[00:16:51.14] spk_3:
no market so so well, well well talk about these delightful people over the course of the show. So here are our first three of the delightful dozen. So this is the first quarter of the delightful dozen. And our first delightful dozen designate is Cheryl McCormick who is the Ceo of the Athens Area Humane Society and she is a delightful dozen member, our inaugural member and tony Why did Cheryl make the delightful dozen?

[00:17:39.14] spk_1:
Cheryl McCormick has been a fan of nonprofit radio for many, many years in the early years she used to send me messages on twitter and facebook commenting on the show years ago she did a blog post where she listed um you know, recommended podcasts, She put non profit radio at the top of her list and she was the first blogger to do that, you know, uh gratefully, thankfully, you know the show has been on many lists through the years, but she was the first person to do that. Um, so you know just long term, long term loyal fan. Um I have my plan giving accelerator and she was the first person to join the first class.

[00:17:45.94] spk_5:
She

[00:18:08.04] spk_1:
was the first member of the first class of plan giving accelerator. I was grateful for that was very uh significant, you know moving that that she believed in what the course was gonna be about. I haven’t done one yet. And the course has turned out very, very well but so she’s been a longtime fan and uh that’s why I’m grateful to Cheryl McCormick and that’s why she belongs in the delightful dozen.

[00:18:38.74] spk_3:
Thank you Cheryl for being part of our delightful dozen here tony-martignetti non profit radio So the next member being inaugurated or whatever and welcomed into the class of the delightful dozen. We have a woman named Barbara Newhouse and Barbara is the current Ceo of the southeast texas food bank which is an amazing organization and so important these days especially but Barbara when she was on the show, she was the Ceo of the A. L. S association and she was involved in an extremely high profile nonprofit fundraising activity that goes down in history. tony tell us what that was.

[00:18:56.44] spk_1:
That was the ice bucket challenge and I was so excited to get her on the show. The ice bucket challenge was during the summer of 2014. So we’re going back a few years but its legendary

[00:19:03.61] spk_4:
years ago already.

[00:19:05.39] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:19:06.37] spk_4:
what is time talking

[00:19:08.99] spk_3:
about it? People are still talking about it, they’re like how can we do something like the ice bucket challenge clients that like

[00:19:14.72] spk_1:
it was organic,

[00:19:16.06] spk_3:
it’s lightning in a bottle

[00:20:42.54] spk_1:
right. And that was, that was the summer of 2014, it wrapped up right around labor day of 2014 and then on the october 6th show we got Barbara Newhouse the Ceo of the A. L. S. Society, which was the The beneficiary of 120 850 million. The numbers seem to vary a little bit, but a ton of money came in over 68 weeks. They were overwhelmed and we got to talk to Barbara Newhouse, the Ceo about how it originated. And you know, it was it was purely organic. It came from three three three Service 3 folks with with A. L. S. In their family or or they themselves are patients and it was just purely organic. Uh and then what they were going to do with the money and how they were going to decide what to do with the money. And did that show that october Uh for 2014 show at the Chronicle of Philanthropy Offices. Um So we shared the interview with them, but they let me do it on the podcast and then they hosted it on their site and it was just very, very much upbeat uh moment for nonprofit radio to get Barbara Newhouse, just a couple of weeks after this all had this all had broken and to do it in the Chronicle of philanthropy Office was terrific. Yes.

[00:20:46.04] spk_3:
So Barbara Newhouse, thank you for letting us designate you one of the delightful dozen of tony-martignetti

[00:20:52.57] spk_1:
we’ll

[00:20:52.80] spk_3:
send you a plaque or something. I don’t know, maybe

[00:20:54.99] spk_1:
not

[00:21:03.24] spk_3:
let’s not get carried away. You might get like a sticker. Okay, so the third person we’re going to talk about who we’re going to um bring into our cone of silence or whatever is not a cone of silence of

[00:21:11.74] spk_1:
it’s

[00:21:13.35] spk_3:
a basket of fabulousness. I don’t know what it is, but it’s called the delightful dozen and it’s Tony’s delightful dozen people. And so the third one we’re going to bring in is the editor of the Chronicle of philanthropy, Stacy palmer. So tony tell us why is Stacy a member of the delightful dozen?

[00:22:24.74] spk_1:
Well, because she was amenable to what I just talked about the that sharing of that interview in 2014. She’s been a guest on the show a bunch of times, most recently, just a couple of weeks ago, I think like, 33 weeks ago. because the Chronicle of philanthropy is transitioning to nonprofit status, which is enormous. Going from privately held to from privately held. They’re owned by the Chronicle of Higher Education. Now they’re going from privately held to nonprofit status. They have not gotten their approval from the I. R. S. Yet. But they have Made their 1023 application. So that’s huge and she’s been on the show a couple of other times. And then in addition to that, uh she gave me an opportunity years ago to host for the Chronicle. The another podcast uh fundraising fundamentals.

[00:22:27.34] spk_5:
And

[00:22:27.57] spk_1:
that was that was different. That was strictly fundraising

[00:22:30.82] spk_3:
short

[00:22:37.64] spk_1:
Form, nothing more than 12 minutes. Most of the interviews were like 10, 8, 10 minutes uh

[00:22:38.27] spk_3:
quick 12,

[00:22:38.96] spk_1:
three. What can we learn? And I did that for four or 4.5 years with the

[00:22:43.75] spk_3:
Chronicle

[00:22:45.04] spk_1:
hosting that uh, for them. And so I’m grateful to Stacy Palmer and that’s why she belongs in the delightful dozen. So there you go.

[00:22:53.83] spk_3:
And that is the first three members of our class of the 2022 Tony-Martignetti delightful dozen.

[00:23:01.44] spk_1:
And

[00:23:02.56] spk_3:
we’ll have more later. Stay tuned.

[00:23:12.24] spk_1:
We absolutely will. And it’s my pleasure to bring in one of our, one of our sponsors. Peter Pan a

[00:23:15.94] spk_0:
pinto. Good

[00:23:16.71] spk_7:
day everyone. How are you?

[00:23:20.14] spk_1:
Hello Peter.

[00:23:20.91] spk_3:
Hi Peter.

[00:23:27.64] spk_1:
We were just talking about fundraising fundamentals on the Chronicle of philanthropy and uh, and how Stacy palmer was important to that and uh, and you were to Peter in in making that happen.

[00:23:33.47] spk_7:
Yeah, that was our first joint effort way back in the day. tony when we worked on that.

[00:24:05.54] spk_1:
Indeed, indeed. Um, so I invited Peter to come of course because turned to communications of which he is one of the partners is a sponsor of nonprofit radio has been for several years and Peter, you know, I’m grateful. I’m grateful for the support that that you and your partner scott give to the nonprofit radio So thank you. I want to have you on to say thank you for your many years, sponsorship.

[00:24:08.42] spk_7:
Thank you were big supporters of the work you do and

[00:24:13.64] spk_1:
past

[00:24:27.44] spk_7:
building you provide to the non community through this program and through so much of the other work you do to tony uh, you really do a really important service grazers and nonprofit Urz especially those that smaller organizations that don’t have access to a lot of the resources that a lot of us do.

[00:24:34.64] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you. Peter. Your, your audio is breaking up a little bit. So I’m gonna suggest you turn off your video. I’m

[00:24:40.76] spk_7:
gonna turn my video off and as I do that, I’m going to move to a better location. Okay.

[00:24:56.44] spk_1:
Because I don’t want you to be breaking up as you as you remind folks, uh, as I do each week, but now we’re gonna hear it from one of the partners. I’m just a lackluster host of the number one podcast, but still black Western. Um, so as you, you know, remind folks what, what turned to communications is all about for nonprofits. Please

[00:25:36.44] spk_7:
Sure. We are a full service communications and pr agency that specializes in working with non profits and foundations. Uh, it started from my work prior to going into consulting as a journalist where I spent a number of years at the Chronicle philanthropy, really getting to know the field. Uh, and starting to really understand the best practices and communications and pr and have taken the lessons we’ve learned there along with the the years that we’ve now been working with um nonprofits and thought leaders and uh, and foundations across the sector and apply it to the work we do today.

[00:25:43.34] spk_1:
You do a lot of work with community foundations, don’t you?

[00:26:18.94] spk_7:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s a really central part of our business. We um, we provide support to a group called the Community Foundation awareness Initiative, which is a coalition of about 100 and 50 community foundations that we provide strategic support to. And we’ve really built a community of practice among communicators at community foundations where we bring them together. We um, we provide them with resources and training and we provide a forum for um communications professionals to talk to each other and learn from each other. So that has been a really interesting direction of our work and it helps inform a lot of what we do. Now,

[00:26:42.94] spk_1:
you’ve had some valuable recommendations to in in crises for local community foundations. That’s I’ve found that very helpful. After the, you’ve all day shooting in texas, I was very happy to send out. You recommended the san Antonio area Community Foundation. That’s right, yeah. We

[00:27:04.34] spk_7:
really, we really leverage that network and try to find ways to leverage our own network to communicate about how folks can help in in response to disasters, but also how they can support each other and and and help and grow the field in a larger way. And I really appreciate when when folks with platforms like you see the work that we’re doing and the work that these organizations are doing and help amplify that message. That’s that’s the best possible outcome.

[00:27:23.64] spk_1:
Oh, it was, it was a pleasure. And uh, peter I want to thank you again for, for the turn to support of non profit radio for your kind words. Thanks very much for joining, joining today. We really appreciate it.

[00:27:25.40] spk_7:
Thank you so much. Great to see you all.

[00:27:32.14] spk_3:
Wonderful, Great guy,

[00:28:07.44] spk_1:
very grateful. Yes. Um, and which leads me to, uh, more, uh, More formal expression of gratitude and it’s time for Tony’s take two and I have to say thank you, thank you. Um, it’s hard to identify, you know, who you think first, I guess I guess listeners, you know, if it wasn’t for 13,000 listeners a week in in small and mid size shops, which are the, the ones that we all here today and all the guests that I’ve had through the years. I want to support? You know, um, I knew I was gonna get misty,

[00:28:12.32] spk_3:
you

[00:28:42.84] spk_1:
know, I, I channel II channel our listeners can be a heart. I channel our listeners. You know, what do I think you would ask if you were in the conversation, What do I think is most valuable to you to know to take away from this guest, whether it’s uh, you know, discussion points for, for your, your, your team or for your ceo or for your board to act on. I get a lot of comments, you know, I brought this to my board for discussion and, you know, in that that’s, uh, to me that’s a Grand Slam. Uh, I’m not capable of going any further. That’s Grand Slam is all I know about football. I’m not very good at sports. So,

[00:28:53.02] spk_0:
uh,

[00:29:35.54] spk_1:
but you know, I’m channeling the listeners. I’m grateful to all of you folks who have listened and and do listen. And of course, everybody who supports the show. Everybody here today Claire scott, Amy jean. Um, you know, our our longtime longtime contributors, I’ve got more to say about Gene and Amy later on, so, uh, but grateful at this point. Just a lot of things going out, a lot of gratitude to our listeners, to everybody who supports the show and who has supported, you know, through Through 12 years. You know, I’m Ready to do another 12. We’re not we’re not stopping

[00:30:51.84] spk_4:
tony Can I add like a tiny Sprinkle of love on top of your big love sunday for your listeners. I’m trying to come up with a metaphor there. Um, you know, I we, at n 10, of course, like a whole community of people learning about technology, but so obviously it’s a biased view, but I don’t care and don’t pretend that it’s not biased, but there’s so many people and so many institutions that those people are in, and then so many other factors like The perception or the positioning with funders or whatever else that constantly tells folks in our sector, you’re supposed to already be the expert and like heaven forbid you admit you’re not, you know, so for 13,000 people to say actually I’m gonna learn something by listening to this show for 12 years, right? Like I just want folks to really appreciate in themselves that they are not buying into all of that noise that like they already know everything there already the expert. Like there’s nothing more to learn. Like there’s so much more to learn and we actually do better when we learn together in conversation or in practice. And I appreciate that for 12 years you’ve created space for that learning to happen. But also that 13,000 people were like, yeah, I have more to learn. You know, that’s really important for our sector.

[00:31:13.64] spk_1:
Thank you amy. Thank you. I’m gonna let him have the last word. That is Tony’s take that is Tony’s take two scott stein’s got some more music for us.

[00:31:53.34] spk_5:
Yeah, I do. Um I thought I would do the title track from the new record. So this is the song is called Uphill and it’s simply about kind of climbing out from from something and getting uphill and trying to trying to stay up there, which feels like kind of where we’re all at right now, we’re particularly with the pandemic and everything else that’s happening and so um like, like a lot of work, the song takes on multiple meanings or it takes on different meanings, you know, for for different people. So anyway, that’s this one.

[00:32:04.84] spk_0:
Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:32:12.64] spk_2:
Lying

[00:32:13.20] spk_0:
here have weighed the while, nothing in the

[00:32:16.84] spk_2:
attack. It’s only the caffeine in my system. I think another night, another week, another

[00:32:23.64] spk_0:
month

[00:32:25.65] spk_2:
we go up

[00:32:29.94] spk_0:
again and roll

[00:32:32.62] spk_2:
like a wave a button up over the

[00:32:34.97] spk_0:
shore, sleep

[00:32:36.69] spk_2:
like a letter. Someone slid under the door. I know better days are coming though. I couldn’t tell you all

[00:32:43.67] spk_0:
that

[00:32:49.24] spk_2:
again. I will go up

[00:32:56.24] spk_0:
again. Years

[00:32:59.11] spk_2:
of living in my bows. It’s carved into my

[00:33:02.05] spk_0:
face

[00:33:06.14] spk_2:
if there is itself in my room and takes up all the space.

[00:33:32.44] spk_0:
Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Mhm. Fighting off

[00:33:33.29] spk_2:
the DM It’s like a boxer in the

[00:33:35.74] spk_0:
ring. I hear the

[00:33:37.26] spk_2:
interest in my corner, but I cannot see a thing. I’ll take it one day at a time I’m taking it on the chin

[00:33:45.46] spk_0:
and I will go

[00:33:49.94] spk_2:
up trying to catch a train. That’s always

[00:33:54.21] spk_0:
the first step ahead sweating

[00:34:09.04] spk_2:
And up straight and then I’ll fall back into bed and then wake up from the dream and take a breath and count to 10. I will go up

[00:34:11.34] spk_0:
again,

[00:34:26.34] spk_2:
lie here forgiveness in your voice as a reason. Life sounded like music that only you and

[00:34:56.74] spk_0:
Mhm and open to the grief from open to the sorrow

[00:35:01.09] spk_2:
and opened up the chairs that I’m gonna stumble down tomorrow, even if nobody knows when the rain will

[00:35:09.15] spk_0:
be, I will

[00:35:13.74] spk_2:
again, ready for the downpour and let it overflow my

[00:35:16.81] spk_0:
cup. I’ll be

[00:35:18.13] spk_2:
ready for the sunshine for whenever it shows up. I know better days are coming though. I don’t know when,

[00:35:26.48] spk_0:
but

[00:35:34.64] spk_2:
I will go up again. I will go up will again. I will go

[00:35:54.94] spk_1:
thank you scott. Uphill title cut the album coming up next month, August 22, is that

[00:35:59.80] spk_5:
21st

[00:36:05.13] spk_1:
August 21? I gave you an extra day. Well you have an extra day just in case one more day after a year makes a difference.

[00:36:07.09] spk_5:
Yeah, well the show will be the 21st and uh I might I might put it online a few days before that. But next month. So for sure,

[00:36:47.93] spk_1:
Uphill the album coming August 21, congratulations. Thank you. Thanks a lot Scott. I had the opportunity to have a chat with our our other sponsor of the Ceo jug in at fourth dimension Technologies. They’re based in India. So they’re all sleeping right now while we are chatting here pleasantly. So I met jargon in new york city and I’m gonna play that that that that chat uh right now, here it is.

[00:36:54.23] spk_8:
I’m

[00:36:54.58] spk_1:
with jug in the Ceo of fourth dimension technologies. We all know it as four D. Of course.

[00:37:01.53] spk_8:
Um

[00:37:03.23] spk_1:
we couldn’t arrange to talk on the

[00:37:06.68] spk_8:
Uh at the six

[00:37:07.69] spk_1:
10th show with him live

[00:37:09.46] spk_8:
because he’s

[00:37:10.45] spk_1:
a couple hours

[00:37:12.33] spk_8:
away so

[00:37:13.02] spk_1:
we’re meeting in Moynihan train hall in new york city so you may hear some train announcements in the

[00:37:17.98] spk_8:
background.

[00:37:19.13] spk_1:
Um that’s where he and I are talking and joking, welcome to non profit radio 600 show and thank you so much for being a

[00:37:35.53] spk_8:
sponsor. Thank you tony and thank you for having us as a sponsor. It’s wonderful to be here and excellent to meet meet in person after almost two years.

[00:37:38.57] spk_1:
Yeah it’s a pleasure,

[00:37:40.98] spk_8:
absolute pleasure.

[00:37:41.87] spk_1:
So uh this is a chance for you to acquaint our listeners

[00:37:47.97] spk_0:
with four

[00:37:50.08] spk_1:
D. And with I. T. Info in a

[00:37:51.75] spk_8:
box. So folks

[00:37:55.03] spk_1:
have been hearing me talk about the the I. T. In. For in a box

[00:37:56.87] spk_8:
but we’ll

[00:37:57.87] spk_1:
get there. But first you know just acquaint us with with four D. From the ceo

[00:38:45.02] spk_8:
perspective. So let me tell you what, I think that it’s got a long history close to 30 plus years old. That’s pretty long and being in the I. T. Infrastructure space all through when I mean the infra basically we’re talking about everything that involves with hardware which is like compute storage network, the list is long, you have backup, you have disaster recovery business continuity, you have the operating systems, you have the security aspects of it. So we pretty much covered the entire gamut of I. T. Infrastructure and without 30 years of experience I think we can claim to have fairly reasonable good knowledge on all these pillars and

[00:38:45.34] spk_1:
these are all aspects of the I. T. Infra in a

[00:38:48.71] spk_8:
box that

[00:38:50.28] spk_1:
that folks can choose

[00:39:13.62] spk_8:
From absolutely what we do, what we’ve done is we’ve actually boxed are 30 years experience in the industry to provide affordable solutions for nonprofits. Okay. So what we are essentially trying to provide nonprofits is being able to have the entire idea of theirs in one single interface. Okay. They can of course they have the option of picking and choosing what they want but all of this available as a single and also as a service, which means they pay for it as the use, that’s what we’re trying to send to them.

[00:39:28.72] spk_1:
You’re sensitive to the fact that non profits are operating on,

[00:39:30.82] spk_8:
you know,

[00:39:31.17] spk_1:
often small

[00:40:00.91] spk_8:
budgets. 100%. No question about it. We understand we work with nonprofits, we understand how tight budgeted they are. We’ve also seen how nonprofits have evolved with time there was a time there, they were focusing only on things like getting the donation and executing projects but today time has come where technology has become very crucial for not just survival but for their growth as well. Okay, so we feel that technology is going forward is going to play a very major part function for any organization, let alone non profit everybody, there’s

[00:40:06.07] spk_1:
no more index

[00:40:06.67] spk_8:
cards, everybody’s

[00:40:08.31] spk_1:
every

[00:40:08.66] spk_8:
person,

[00:40:09.91] spk_1:
not even not only the I. T.

[00:40:11.10] spk_8:
Director, I mean

[00:40:12.02] spk_1:
everyone of course is using technology in their work

[00:40:37.81] spk_8:
and we understand the need for, especially for nonprofits to work with tight budgets. So which is why when we start looking at it, we’ve kind of made it a very cost effective model for them. I’m sure they will see the cost effectiveness in the whole process, which we also feel is probably our way of giving back in some sense in some sense, okay. Because we’re not going to be looking at purely market rates in this model, but we think there is an option to do that. But we also want to make it easy, elegant and simple for them to use, that’s the idea

[00:40:44.94] spk_1:
and there is a large U. S. Nonprofit you’re working with

[00:41:46.41] spk_8:
now. Oh yes, we do. That’s, that’s our first experience with nonprofits. It’s not just its us based, but it’s an international organization. They have presents, not only the U. S. They have presence in Japan Korea, parts of europe India all over and it’s a huge impact. So when we, when we actually got into that organization, I think they were, they had a lot of I. T, let’s say components in this actually bought a lot of things. But I think what has happened this over a period of time, they’re all desperate components of the bottle is not integrated into one solution for them. So when we got in, we realized that there are lots of things, which they were about dead bought, they were not using and some of them they could have used it better. So we started optimizing the whole thing today we wrote something to the cloud, something in the data center and stuff like that and today they are in a position actually a very stable idea. Environment is what they have And then we also manage it for them. 24,

[00:41:50.49] spk_1:
that’s I. T. N. I. T. In. For in a box available if they’re not using that. Exactly.

[00:41:57.32] spk_8:
But all

[00:41:58.30] spk_1:
these competencies that

[00:41:59.34] spk_8:
you’re describing are

[00:42:00.56] spk_1:
in the I. T. In for in a

[00:42:27.10] spk_8:
box. So using all the confidence of I. T. In the box. Ah we didn’t start off with I. D. In front of box for them. We started off with support for them but I think it evolved into something where we felt that when we put it into a complete integrated component it can really help a lot of these nonprofits irrespective of the size. Okay Irrespective of size. Excellent. Alright, thank

[00:42:30.30] spk_1:
you very much. Pleasure to meet you and uh new york city Moynihan train hall and thank you again for your your sponsorship of non profit

[00:42:46.20] spk_8:
radio thank you and thank you. Thank you Tony. Thank you Tony for giving us this opportunity. We’re really hoping that this will give us an opportunity to be of service the non problems. That’s the way we look at it from our perspective. Terrific. Thank you so much.

[00:42:47.42] spk_1:
My pleasure thank you.

[00:42:48.50] spk_8:
My pleasure. Thank you.

[00:42:52.50] spk_5:
That’s so fun that you met in the new Moynihan train hall out of penn station.

[00:42:56.52] spk_1:
It’s beautiful. Have have you seen, have you seen the train hall yet?

[00:42:59.82] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s great. It’s really, it’s, it’s almost unrecognizable from what we think of as penn station. Maybe something closer to what the what the old penn station from way back to the

[00:43:12.42] spk_3:
old beautiful one.

[00:43:13.48] spk_5:
Yeah. Trying to get a little bit of that back.

[00:43:16.07] spk_1:
Has anybody else been there?

[00:43:17.32] spk_3:
I have been there and I grew up on Long Island so I’m very familiar with penn station which you know for years. And then the first time I had a friend in Westchester and I went to Grand Central Station, I was like that’s their train station, Wait a minute, kids from Westchester get this train station kids from Long Island at this train station. So I’m very excited about the Moynihan train station.

[00:43:39.80] spk_1:
The old Long Island Railroad was underground. I mean the station was underground

[00:43:41.81] spk_3:
station

[00:43:42.72] spk_1:
was underground, had no windows

[00:43:44.21] spk_3:
low ceilings.

[00:43:45.68] spk_1:
Remember it from when you lived in the city?

[00:43:48.02] spk_4:
Yes, for sure.

[00:43:50.10] spk_1:
Not at all.

[00:43:51.60] spk_5:
It’s a notch above Ports authority, but

[00:44:02.19] spk_4:
you still have the same sense of like if you don’t have to stop and ask for directions and you just know I’m gonna go, I’m gonna pass to, I’m gonna turn left and then I’m gonna go where I need to go. Then you’re like a real new yorker, you didn’t have to, you know like you knew the map in your head, but you don’t want to know the map in your head. Like it’s not an achievement to know it, you know, you gladly forget it. Yeah,

[00:44:22.39] spk_5:
it’s an achievement to basically spend as little time in the station as possible,

[00:44:26.69] spk_4:
right?

[00:44:27.79] spk_1:
Yeah, that was never a welcoming space.

[00:44:30.05] spk_3:
No. And sometimes you’d actually see like you’d see long island celebrities in, in, you know, sort of like many celebrities like islander players or you know baseball players or whatever. And you see you see them in Penn station and they just kind of standing there. I saw jim palmer once, if you remember the handsome baseball players from the Orioles, he was, I saw him once in Penn station. He

[00:44:48.31] spk_1:
was the quarterback, wasn’t, he

[00:44:49.57] spk_3:
was the quarterback of the Orioles. Exactly. And I once saw Billy Joel and penn station. So that’s like the ultimate to before Long Island and see Billy Joel in Penn station with a few friends because probably that was just maybe for whatever he was doing, that was the easiest way to get home.

[00:45:08.39] spk_5:
But this is the guy who he like takes a private helicopter to Madison Square garden gigs

[00:45:13.04] spk_0:
long before

[00:45:14.36] spk_5:
that. I was gonna say, I don’t think he’s taking the Long Island rail road.

[00:45:16.62] spk_3:
I’m on the higher end of the higher end of the age spectrum at this point. And so this was probably maybe like 1979 or something

[00:45:34.79] spk_1:
new york now has a, has a very fitting train train hall. It’s not, it’s not even Moynihan train station, but it’s like the difference between an anniversary and a jubilee, they don’t have a train hall, they don’t have a train station, you know, any town could have a station or, or a terminal, they have a train haul a train hall in new york, Moynihan train hall. So

[00:45:44.69] spk_4:
grand. It’s grand in that way.

[00:45:55.49] spk_1:
It’s like, like the, like the jubilee, like the jubilee. Um so um, how about a little more delightful dozen.

[00:45:58.12] spk_3:
Oh, I do have some more members of the delightful, doesn’t know

[00:46:00.92] spk_1:
what a surprise

[00:46:02.18] spk_3:
surprise, what a surprise. Well, I think, I think the next person I’d like to mention is a really cool lady who I’ve met before and her name is Regina Walton, tony Tell us about Regina.

[00:46:11.45] spk_1:
Regina, I love Regina. She was

[00:46:14.58] spk_3:
the

[00:46:45.28] spk_1:
first social media manager for nonprofit radio So she had been the social manager for my company. I know, maybe not. No, no, I take that back when I started the show in july 2010, I knew I needed help promoting and uh, and I brought Regina on board and she was the social manager for the first three or so years of the show got, got me launched, you know when I didn’t know what twitter was, she knew to get at tony-martignetti uh through the years when I didn’t know what gmail was, she knew to reserve tony-martignetti at gmail dot com,

[00:46:51.58] spk_3:
which I’ve always been

[00:47:06.78] spk_1:
Grateful for because I wouldn’t know, you know, I’d be using, I’d be using Tony-Martignetti 12 now or something at gmail. So she knew, she knew, she knew she was on a game. Regina Walton, very fond memories of the shows for and my first social manager, Regina Walton certainly belongs in that delightful dozen.

[00:47:15.08] spk_3:
Congratulations to Regina and our next member of the delightful dozen is Edgar Villanueva. He’s the author of de colonizing wealth and he heads up something called the de con de colonizing wealth project, which supports social movement and racial healing. So he’s obviously a great guy. Tell us about Edgar.

[00:47:40.58] spk_1:
It was terrific. Um very proud of his heritage. He’s a lumbee, one of the the native american tribes in north Carolina, which I have a home near the lumbee river. So he and I chatted about

[00:47:47.61] spk_3:
that in

[00:49:08.17] spk_1:
lambert exactly in Lumberton north Carolina and maybe it’s just the Lumberton Lumberton river. But lumbee certainly from that area, very smart guy. His book is de colonizing wealth and he leads the de colonizing wealth project. Um he was first on the show November 30, 2018 but I’ve replayed it many times and I’m seriously thinking about using his show to replace my annual replay of a show called zombie loyalists, which was with Peter shankman wrote a book about marketing and how to make people your zombie loyalists so that they do all your marketing and your promotion for you and they are zombies to your to your cause or your work. Um and I’ve played that many times in december but I think um I think I’m gonna replay it feels more, you know, uh promotion and and marketing have their place of course, but the colonizing wealth seems uh seems a little more move of the moment to me. So I think each december I’m gonna replay Edgar’s interview from from 2018 about about his book, the colonizing wealth. So he’ll be an annual replay and uh absolutely belongs in the among the delightful dozen.

[00:49:12.27] spk_0:
His book is

[00:49:13.26] spk_1:
a must read. I’m sorry jean go ahead. His

[00:49:30.27] spk_6:
book is a must read for anybody looking at social justice and racial justice issues and that is a must read book and I had the pleasure of listening to Edgar in Oxford of all places. Um and just a wonderful speaker and one wonderful presenter, a wonderful thought leader on on all of these topics. So I’m glad to hear he’s gonna be uh

[00:49:42.97] spk_0:
in in in the

[00:49:44.57] spk_1:
Edgar. Edgar. Edgar Villanueva, Yes, Wonderful that he got invited to speak at Oxford outstanding. Their their speaker series is preeminent.

[00:49:54.97] spk_3:
Wonderful. So our next person up is Beth Kanter who doesn’t know and love Beth Kanter. tony why is she in the delightful dozen.

[00:50:05.56] spk_1:
The only guest to say fuck on. non profit radio

[00:50:08.78] spk_3:
Well you just said it

[00:50:10.26] spk_1:
well, she was the first person.

[00:50:12.09] spk_4:
tony is not a guest. He’s not

[00:50:14.07] spk_1:
a guest. That’s true, that’s right, thank you for saving me. Yes, my statement rings, my statement rings true,

[00:50:20.40] spk_3:
but now I’m a guest host, I just I just

[00:50:23.25] spk_4:
producer, I’m

[00:50:24.92] spk_3:
not gonna do it, but we don’t really

[00:50:27.36] spk_1:
twice in one, twice in one show she

[00:50:29.48] spk_3:
said

[00:50:34.16] spk_1:
yes, she was referring to a cause I think was it fun sharks or something like

[00:50:35.79] spk_3:
that.

[00:51:10.06] spk_1:
But she’s been on the show many times, talking about her books uh you know, people think of her as a technologist, but she’s also very concerned about wellness and and the the whole person bringing your whole person to work. Um Her most recent book is with with Allison Fine, the smart non profit which is another duo that I need to have on the show very soon along with Amy sample ward and uh and their co author, that’s why the host is lackluster, but it’s coming, it’s coming. So Beth and Beth and Allison will be on soon but Beth longtime supporter of the show many time, many time guests and she has that distinction for

[00:51:23.06] spk_0:
her

[00:51:24.16] spk_4:
and love out to Beth who in a couple months ago finished her six years on the N 10 board,

[00:51:33.86] spk_3:
thank you for your service.

[00:51:36.65] spk_1:
Very important.

[00:51:57.16] spk_3:
Cantor, thank you for being in the delightful dozen, which leads us to our next member of the delightful dozen whose book, Beth Kanter wrote the forward for. And that book is Bitcoin and the future of fundraising. And the author of that is our next member of the delightful dozen. And he is Jason shim another

[00:51:58.56] spk_1:
Delightful Guest. Yes, I remember the N 10 board. Right

[00:52:02.02] spk_4:
amy, he was on the same terms as that. So he and yeah, he invest just turned off

[00:52:59.75] spk_1:
All right, service on the N- 10 board belongs in a delightful dozen because he’s he’s such a generous supporter of the show when, when, when he’s on he rises above other folks in terms of uh, most other folks, uh in terms of promotion and just sharing the show and uh, he’s a delight and he’s always he’s got very practical uh grounded suggestions. But he also can look at the 30,000 ft view, you know, in that book, Bitcoin in the future of fundraising, you know, also able to look ahead. Um, and I should also just shout out pathways to education Canada where he is the IT Director, director of technology perhaps, but he’s a muckety muck. Education. Canada leave it at that

[00:53:02.41] spk_4:
parental leave right now

[00:53:04.31] spk_1:
on parental leave to have a child. They had a

[00:53:11.85] spk_4:
child. Yeah, he and his partner had a child in, she was born in december,

[00:53:14.85] spk_1:
wonderful. Yes.

[00:53:27.05] spk_4:
Canada, you know, Canada actually cares for its people. And so they have parental leave for a very long time. All

[00:53:27.28] spk_1:
right. thank you Claire we will

[00:53:28.95] spk_3:
And let’s we have we have one more quick one. Let’s do Sam Liebowitz, Sam

[00:53:41.05] spk_1:
sam the producer, the line producer of the show. He had the studio in new york city, I was with him for three different studios in new york city. He had trouble paying his rent. No, he uh

[00:53:50.04] spk_3:
different

[00:53:52.12] spk_0:
uh

[00:54:46.34] spk_1:
everybody in new york city has trouble paying the rent now he moved around lisa’s ended but he got better deals. Um but yeah, Sam Liebowitz, very special place for nonprofit radio and for me um he gave me a spot on the show, gave me a spot on his online network when non profit radio was brand new. All of you may remember that was friday at one o’clock friday one PM We used to do our our show live and it was livestreamed of course SAM managed not only the production of the logistics of getting folks on the call and what to do when the call drops and how to get them back on, but also managed to live stream, which was going out and then he did facebook live streaming for the show and and I learned from SAM that a a minute when you have to fill it can feel like a day,

[00:54:48.23] spk_4:
but

[00:54:59.84] spk_1:
An hour show flies like two minutes. So Sam Liebowitz a special place in my heart and non profit radios heart for for sam, thank you Claire,

[00:55:01.94] spk_3:
thank you very, very much.

[00:55:08.64] spk_1:
Thanks and we’ll be revisiting one more time. Delightful doesn’t but scott. Uh scott is gonna play that’s gonna play cheap red wine I believe I hope.

[00:55:38.74] spk_5:
Yeah. And just want to say real quick tony It’s such a pleasure to be here. And uh this it all started from you licensed this song to use cheap red wine as the walk in music as it were. And uh it’s just been so fun to have this continuing work relationship and and so and thank you for you know picking my music and enjoying it. So pleasure, pleasure to be here. So

[00:55:40.09] spk_1:
it was my pleasure scott.

[00:55:48.74] spk_0:
Mhm

[00:56:01.33] spk_2:
Baby just came up talking sooner or later. I’ll figure out just to watch your

[00:56:08.63] spk_0:
head. You’re

[00:56:25.83] spk_2:
seeking romantic advice from my bill when I’m looking for answers up on a tv screen and we care to be a nothing we can tell our ups from our downs, we’re disappointed in each other. Tell me baby ain’t this love that we found

[00:56:32.53] spk_0:
you

[00:57:15.33] spk_2:
know, you used to find me charming but I can’t figure out how and you said you thought I was handsome but doesn’t matter now so keep falling from a punch hands as long as you’re time poor allowed cause I’ve got a rapid promises, a bottle of cheap wine now, you know some girls are just living diamonds, they were on top of the cut of clothing that are way not to go to work for the good stuff. You’re too easily to strike to take care. Well, I ain’t got too many options. So I’m gonna do the best that I

[00:57:19.99] spk_0:
can.

[00:57:31.83] spk_2:
Well maybe you’ll have some competition one day when I’m a wealthier man. You know, you used to find me charming, but I can’t figure out how. And you said you thought it was handsome, but it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling from a punch on. As long as your time will allow. Because I’ve got arrested promises by legit a while now.

[00:57:52.23] spk_0:
Oh,

[00:58:15.72] spk_2:
hey baby, let’s raise our glasses, take a drink the better days. The other people can kiss our ass’s because they don’t like the things you sing and the heavens that I won’t flashing victory signs because we’re perfect for each other. As long as we have nobody else in mind, nobody is waiting.

[00:58:43.52] spk_0:
Mhm Whoa, whoa. Yeah. You know, you

[00:58:45.91] spk_2:
used to find me charming, but I can’t figure out how you said your father’s hands and never mind it. Don’t matter

[00:58:52.87] spk_0:
now. So keep

[00:58:53.83] spk_2:
falling from my Puncheon’s. As long as your time will allow because I’ve got her any promises about the cheaper and whatever.

[00:59:06.82] spk_0:
Mhm

[00:59:11.62] spk_2:
cheap and whatever. Oh

[00:59:46.82] spk_0:
yeah. Okay. Mhm Mhm

[00:59:57.82] spk_1:
Scott. Thank

[00:59:58.28] spk_3:
you. Thank you

[01:00:02.20] spk_1:
song always makes me smile. Scott. I turned up my volume

[01:00:06.92] spk_5:
and and and I didn’t have any banging on the walls from the neighbors. So we’re good.

[01:00:11.31] spk_4:
I thought you meant from the

[01:00:14.40] spk_0:
baby.

[01:00:18.31] spk_5:
No.

[01:00:19.95] spk_1:
You

[01:00:20.43] spk_5:
Know when she turns like 13. Dad, not that song again.

[01:00:24.13] spk_1:
You’ll still be on once a year. I have to hear this song.

[01:00:28.36] spk_0:
Dad, this old, he’s gone this guy

[01:00:36.21] spk_1:
up Claire. Let’s finish up our delightful does.

[01:00:59.71] spk_3:
All right. Well this delightful dozen has just been delightful. I’ve had such a delightful time putting together the delightful dozen with my Pal Tony-Martignetti who I admire greatly for his 600 podcasts. Just amazing. So the next members are final members actually of the delightful dozen are Amy sample Ward and jean Takaki. That’s two of them.

[01:02:12.90] spk_1:
So grateful to each of you for your contributions, you know, for for helping small and midsize shops, you know, certainly for the contributions you make to the show the time you put in on the show. But you know, each of your individual practices too. You know, you’re, you’re devoted to, to helping helping those, those small and midsize shops grow and, and be sustainable and be smart about legal compliance, gene and be smart about the use of technology. Amy. And um, I’m grateful. I’m grateful to each of you to have you as esteemed contributors. Um, jean you, you, you joined the show boy second month, Your first time on the show was August 27th of 2010. We talked about keeping your board on board. So with my, my silly puns. I I started early, started early. I’m still trying keeping your board on board and out of trouble and And that was our 7th show and you’ve been on you’ve been a contributor since. Thank you jean.

[01:02:20.00] spk_6:
Thank you tony amazing! Um too afraid to

[01:02:21.19] spk_1:
be

[01:02:32.70] spk_6:
um that long and to be a part of it too, I really appreciate you giving me a voice to, to folks like us to to be able to share our perspectives with with your listeners and really just a wonderful service that you provide,

[01:03:29.30] spk_1:
I would say your expertise, I know you’re too modest to say that, but it’s your you’re sharing your expertise with listeners, so thank you and I’m happy to give you that that that platform of course, Amy Amy joined in uh 10th show. So that was July 13, 2012, 500 shows ago, that was in all social media show as a matter of fact, um Amy and jean were both on together and then there were a couple of other former contributors, Maria Semple and scott Legler. Amy joined us on the 100th show first as our social media contributor and then technology and social media contributor. Amy, you know, I I was trying to remember who introduced us. I I don’t I don’t remember but I’m forever grateful that uh that we got together and Grateful for your contributions, you know, the time you put into the show and the collaboration with within 10 as well around the conference each year,

[01:04:56.69] spk_4:
I’m so glad I started when I still lived in new york. So I have lots of memories of trying to get on the subway to get down to sand studio and go up to like tiny one person coffin elevator into its new york. So every train is always late and I’d be trying to text you, I’m coming and you were like, I’ll just keep randomly talking into this microphone and tell him he walks through the elevator. Um but I’ll tell you that I really appreciated you tony because I don’t know how much you remember this because we’ve had the opportunity to talk about lots of things over the year. But um When after I started on the show in 2012, on the 10th episode after that uh is when intense former executive director stepped down and I told you did, should I try to be the ceo should I apply? Because I’m hearing from some people when I’ve asked them that like I’m too young or I can’t do it, you know, I’m not qualified. And you were like, why wouldn’t you be the Ceo? And I was like, darn it. I’m gonna apply and here I am all these years later, still the Ceo. So thank you for believing in me.

[01:04:59.49] spk_3:
That’s a great story. I I really love that story, anne, thank you for sharing that because so many people really feel like, oh, I don’t know if I should apply for that. I don’t have enough experience and and we all should apply for everything all the time. I’m running for president of the United States.

[01:05:13.12] spk_4:
I qualified but

[01:05:18.19] spk_3:
hey, alright then we got thank you so much amy and

[01:05:21.52] spk_1:
thank you for being

[01:05:22.52] spk_3:
in our delightful dozen aimee and jean and so um we have another one and then another one. So the first of the other ones are Susan Chavez, tony Susan Chavez.

[01:06:30.78] spk_1:
Why she’s our excellent current social media manager for the show. She she promotes the show, she’s proactive about doing it. She has ideas. Uh the things that we can do. Uh she tracks analytics, we talk each month about numbers and what might be causing different trends or she’ll set my mind at ease and say, you know it’s a blip, don’t worry about it. Of course those are the downward trends. But then she’ll, you know, usually the upward trends is usually because she had a recommendation for something that we try and it brought a lot of attention, you know, on one of the platforms or to the to the site or to the show, that particular show or something. So yes, much gratitude to Susan Chavez. I, when I’m telling people that they’ll hear from her when they’re, when they’re getting their appearances coming up on the show. I say you’ll get an email from my excellent social manager. Susan Chavez always say excellent social manager. So she’s in Chavez

[01:06:32.34] spk_3:
Chavez

[01:06:32.90] spk_1:
gratitude to her.

[01:06:43.18] spk_3:
Okay, so we’ve got a carton of eggs, there’s 11 eggs, good eggs in the carton and we have one final good egg to put in our carton of the delightful dozen and the final person in our delightful dozen is none other than scott stein

[01:06:47.48] spk_5:
has

[01:06:48.02] spk_1:
To be, has to be yes, I had trouble finding that licensing agreement but uh Jean will be pleased to know that this is all this was all done by attorney was not a handshake deal. It was, it was August of 2013. I licensed your show.

[01:07:50.58] spk_5:
Yeah, I remember that it was from my old roommate joseph Becker who is an attorney and who connected us. So yeah, absolutely, but But first again, congratulations 600 episodes is just amazing and I should also add like as a professional musician, the nonprofit world is is also very near and dear to my heart because a lot of what we do involves foundations and you know, and and and the nonprofit world in the music world are very much intertwined. Um so this is just a wonderful resource and and I, I suspect too that some folks that I’ve worked with over the years, our our listeners as well and if they’re not they should be. So

[01:07:51.21] spk_1:
it’s got to get a lot of comments about non profit radio that it’s one of the things people say, you know they learn from it. It’s valuable but also entertaining,

[01:07:59.58] spk_5:
good

[01:08:00.09] spk_1:
and your music, your music brings us in every show and takes us out every show. So you’re a big part of what people like about non profit radio So thank you,

[01:08:08.75] spk_5:
thank you,

[01:08:15.77] spk_3:
Thank you. And that is our delightful dozen, 12. Fabulous people that Tony-Martignetti um acknowledged

[01:08:16.70] spk_1:
12. Yes, absolutely. And there are 12. Exemplary folks, delightful, delightful.

[01:08:23.13] spk_3:
However

[01:08:24.58] spk_1:
claire, I would like to make it a baker’s dozen,

[01:08:26.67] spk_3:
13

[01:08:27.44] spk_1:
Yes, I want to make you are extra donut, you’re the extra donut and our doesn’t

[01:08:33.75] spk_3:
crispy cream. I love the big box of Krispy Kreme, can I be the doughnut with like the white frosting and the multi colored sprinkles

[01:09:06.37] spk_1:
Absolutely. That’s you, that’s you Our 13th donut. Our 13th member of the delightful dozen. Um you know, talk about believing in, you know, you believed in me when I had this crazy idea that I wanted to start a podcast 12 years ago and you said you have no idea what you’re getting into, you have to keep it up, you have to have guests and and and you really, you know, you haven’t, you don’t have a background in it, but you know, you gave me the downsides and I said, I can do it and you believed you believed you talked me out of calling it tony tony-martignetti show.

[01:09:17.08] spk_3:
I said it had to have non profit in the title. You need a nonprofit in the title

[01:09:21.73] spk_1:
that was probably a good idea.

[01:09:23.59] spk_3:
And I talked you out of doing news because it wouldn’t be evergreen news.

[01:09:28.37] spk_1:
I talked you out of

[01:09:29.11] spk_3:
doing news and then

[01:09:30.92] spk_1:
After two weeks and

[01:09:58.57] spk_3:
then I said, you know how to do like a run down a show sheet, you had to book guests. I made you all these little cheat sheets and stuff and and helped you out at the very, you know, I’m so proud. I really am. I’m really proud to have been there from the beginning from that, that first conversation that we had at the steakhouse in cary north Carolina where I go, you’re gonna do a podcast like do you know how much work that is? Yeah, so that was way back in the day. So thank you, thank you for letting me be your baker’s dozen and the dozen donuts in the Krispy Kreme box, send us some free donuts Krispy Kreme,

[01:10:03.36] spk_1:
thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:10:05.10] spk_3:
Thank you. Thank you. tony

[01:10:06.78] spk_1:
Non profit radio 12 years ago.

[01:10:41.06] spk_3:
It’s unbelievable. I’m so, so proud of you. I’m gonna cry. I’m really, really, really proud of you because people think they can do a podcast. They think it’s easy and it is not and it’s a lot of work and to do one every single week. That’s why I tell everybody that I’m like this guy does a podcast every single week. He books guests, they’re all good podcasts, They’re all high quality, you do all the, you know, you bring it all together. It’s very hard to produce something and host it and get it on the air and do all the social and the and the production and everything around it. So Three cheers to you. Tony-Martignetti maybe it’s a baker’s plus dozen of 14 and you’re in there as well.

[01:10:45.95] spk_1:
Well, I haven’t have an exemplary team helping, but thank you, thank

[01:10:50.88] spk_3:
you Claire, Thanks tony

[01:11:05.76] spk_1:
It’s time to wrap, wrap our our 600th show, the 12th jubilee of course we’ll be back next July for 650. So glad, thank you. Thank you jean, thank you amy, thank you scott. Thank you Claire Meyerhoff. We always called each other, I always call it, we’re just

[01:11:11.26] spk_3:
gonna go high tony-martignetti

[01:11:12.91] spk_4:
thank

[01:11:13.69] spk_1:
you thanks to

[01:11:14.21] spk_3:
everybody.

[01:11:24.86] spk_1:
Um and uh my, my gratitude to our listeners, you what you’re what makes the show worth doing, we do it for you.

[01:11:27.96] spk_4:
Thank you Tony,

[01:11:29.66] spk_3:
thank you so much tony you’re the best. Really

[01:11:36.06] spk_4:
tony just like I said earlier, you know that All these folks have 13,000 people have been listening for years because they want to keep learning. You are such a great example of someone who has never said, you already know everything and you are consistently open to learning and I appreciate that about you.

[01:11:52.96] spk_1:
Thanks

[01:12:30.95] spk_3:
and if I could say something about non profit people in general as I’ve been thinking, I’ve been listening to Gene and Amy all this time and scott. What he just said about the music world is that non profit people are really wonderful. We really volunteer our time like what we’re doing right now. We took this hour and a half out of our day to do this. Not that it’s you know, we love it, it’s great but nonprofit people are very good at sharing and actually really care about the nonprofit world and we do everything that everybody asks us if someone says, hey claire, can you write me a little article? Can you do this? Can Oh yeah sure. It’s like we all really help each other out a lot and just like peter said earlier, it’s it’s it’s really a wonderful community and I’m going to cry because I’m really proud to be part of the nonprofit world. I can’t imagine working in any other field.

[01:12:45.65] spk_1:
Beautiful thank you. Claire, thank

[01:12:47.70] spk_3:
you. tony

[01:13:30.25] spk_1:
next week. R 22 N. TC coverage picks back up with cyber security for the accidental techie. That’s a good one. They’re all good. You missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T infra in a box, affordable tech solution for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[01:13:37.55] spk_0:
Our

[01:13:37.86] spk_1:
creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan

[01:13:43.28] spk_0:
Mark

[01:13:44.39] spk_1:
Silverman is our web guy

[01:13:46.20] spk_0:
and this music

[01:13:47.01] spk_1:
is by scott

[01:13:51.35] spk_0:
Stein. Thank

[01:13:51.62] spk_1:
you for that. Affirmation

[01:13:52.55] spk_0:
scotty, You’re

[01:13:54.31] spk_1:
with me next week for nonprofit

[01:13:55.66] spk_0:
radio Big

[01:13:56.90] spk_1:
non profit ideas for

[01:13:58.20] spk_0:
the other

[01:13:59.27] spk_2:
95

[01:14:03.45] spk_0:
percent. Claire

[01:14:06.43] spk_3:
tony Oh, I have a line,

[01:14:09.20] spk_2:
I have a line, it’s so

[01:14:20.45] spk_0:
important to go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm.

Nonprofit Radio for February 21, 2022: Pay Attention To #22NTC

Amy Sample Ward: Pay Attention To #22NTC

It’s the 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference and it’s for everyone who uses technology to work for social change. That’s you. It’s a big, virtual gathering of smart, fun people. And me. Our Amy Sample Ward, CEO of NTEN, shares what’s in store.

 

 

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View Full Transcript

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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to

[00:00:27.34] spk_1:
tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with para keratosis if you rose up and persisted with the idea

[00:00:32.52] spk_2:
that you missed this week’s show.

[00:01:33.34] spk_1:
Pay attention to 22 n. t. c. It’s the 2022 nonprofit technology conference and it’s for everyone who uses technology to work for social change. That’s you. It’s a big virtual gathering of smart fun people and me finally our AMY sample Ward shares what’s in store Antonis take two remembering Michael Davidson and robert Sharpe Jr we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back AMY sample Ward the ceo of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor. Their most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement, but that’s about to change. They’re at AMY sample ward dot org and at AMY R. S Ward. Welcome back AMY, so good to talk to you.

[00:01:39.74] spk_3:
Yeah, he and I don’t know if I’m spoiling anything, but I think I might get to share that title of of social media contributor with another guest soon. Hopefully. Right maybe. No,

[00:01:52.94] spk_1:
no, I know that

[00:01:53.68] spk_3:
you want to start over and we’ll edit that

[00:02:35.44] spk_1:
out. It doesn’t work out so well that’s alright. That’s okay. Um, she’s starting her degree and just can’t do long term commitments. Um, you know, I don’t think it’s, it’s, it’s not so bad listeners. We’re talking about Charles King Matthews, who was the outstanding contributor a few weeks ago about um Social Media in Social Media Prospects in 2022. And I hope that she could be a regular contributor, but she’s beginning her degree as you heard us. She and I talked about at Howard University, starting your PhD and it’s too much.

[00:02:36.33] spk_3:
So that’s

[00:02:37.23] spk_1:
fair. Amy remains our technology and, and social media

[00:02:57.24] spk_3:
content. Okay, well, I’ll continue to to bring in other folks and I am happy to share a title with with anyone, but as you alluded to in the intro, after many years of the same intro, you finally get to say a new book title when, when I do come on the show. So I’m excited. I’m excited for that.

[00:03:06.20] spk_1:
Too much. Too much laurel resting previous book, you know, and we’ve only, you know, this is, this is what it’s going to be your third, I believe. Right? Yeah. I

[00:03:16.03] spk_3:
Think there were only a couple of years in between the first and the second. So this, you know, too much laurel resting as to say, I waited too long for book # three.

[00:03:36.64] spk_1:
It’s it’s it’s a little embarrassing. It gets a little embarrassing. It’s like Gene Takagi being the a b a nonprofit lawyer of the year, you know, in 2014, you know, jean, what have you done

[00:03:38.41] spk_3:
lately, Jean has done so much lately. Not

[00:03:43.81] spk_1:
Since 2014 as far as I know it hasn’t even been that early. I’m I’m giving you a hard time. So um yes we will get a chance to talk about your book. It’s about equity, equity and and technology.

[00:03:56.64] spk_3:
Yeah. The text that comes next,

[00:03:59.24] spk_1:
the tech that comes next. That’s the book. That’s the title. Right. Right. And has implications way beyond the nonprofit community.

[00:04:05.84] spk_3:
Right. Yeah. The book talks about policymakers. Um anyone who’s funding technology and social impact work people that want to do that work people in communities that aren’t in any of those roles that want the world to be different. Um And really how all of those groups can work together.

[00:04:26.14] spk_1:
Fantastic. Well we’re gonna have you and the co author on. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And uh it’s good Universal appeal residuals for life. You can

[00:04:33.36] spk_3:
yes. Yeah. Sign you know, sign it over to a Hollywood movie everywhere you go.

[00:04:39.45] spk_1:
Yes. Yes. You and Nicholas Sparks. Absolutely.

[00:04:45.94] spk_3:
Stephen King. I’m

[00:05:25.94] spk_1:
thinking of Nicholas Sparks because he lives only about 45 minutes or an hour away from where I live in a town called new Bern north Carolina Burn is B. E. R. N. Um so he’s well known in over there. But anyway, yes you’ll join the ranks of movie. That’ll be what a cool movie. That would be all right. We got to talk about 22 N. T. C. This is uh this is this is a long one that, I mean this has been a long span. I’ve been, I’ve been going to NtC’s for since 2014. I know, I know with a skip in 2017. I think you uninvited me in 2017 invite you. Yeah. I think I must have done something in 2016 that embarrassed until 20

[00:05:34.95] spk_3:
17. We were in D. C. Maybe you just didn’t want to come to D. C.

[00:05:40.34] spk_1:
No, I think it was you didn’t invite me.

[00:05:42.54] spk_3:
I’ve never invited you. You always come. I don’t know. I

[00:05:45.57] spk_1:
just show up. You show up like gum on your shoe, right? You always just shows up. Alright. Anyway, I

[00:05:52.29] spk_3:
well know travel this year. It’s virtual again. So you can just find a link and there you are. You know, big. It’s virtual.

[00:06:01.64] spk_1:
Yes. Um let’s remind folks what the dates are first. Let’s start with the basics.

[00:06:11.54] spk_3:
March 23 through 25th. It’s a Wednesday Thursday Friday. And it’s because it’s virtual. So here in pacific time it’s like eight a.m. To about 2 30 in the afternoon. Um So depending on what time zone you might be in. Might, you know, you might be starting around lunchtime instead of breakfast. But

[00:06:31.14] spk_1:
okay. And let’s uh you will be more eloquent about this than I am. As I said in my intro. This is for everybody who uses technology for social change. So let’s allay the fears that it’s the nonprofit technology conference and it’s only for technologists.

[00:08:24.34] spk_3:
Yeah. I mean, I guess I would start by saying it’s 2022 who is not a technologist, right? We’re recording this podcast through the Internet and then people are going to be listening to it through the internet, Right? Um, nonprofit staff, regardless of what job title you have or or what department you’re in or even what your organization’s mission is, you have probably relied on technology the last two years to continue doing your work. Right. And I think that folks take on this idea that, you know, we’re just over here using technology and that means that we’re not technologists, but we’re making decisions about which tools to use. We’re budgeting for what tools to use and the decisions we’re making aren’t just a decision about technology there a decision that’s going to determine who and how our community members maybe participate with us. Right. Like these are questions that have big implications for our mission and our impact. And the entire community is folks of every job title you can imagine because you know, lots of organizations make up ridiculous job titles. Um, you know, every department, every mission area people from all around the world. It’s also not just north America. So I think getting getting rid of this idea that like only certain people get to be technologists. Like we can, we can leave that in the before time, right? And now really say, yeah, I need to make technology decisions and I want to make them intentionally and I want to make them good. Um and and the Ntc is a place for those conversations.

[00:08:35.14] spk_1:
Yes, there are. There are lots and lots of seminars, workshops that are that are for non well the way AMy is describing them

[00:08:38.47] spk_2:
there for their there for technologists included. I was gonna say for non technologists,

[00:08:57.44] spk_3:
but people like technical conversations, we’re not saying how do you know what’s the literal code to make this module work? But they might be saying, hey, what do I do to set up a report in my crm to automatically, you know, come to my team every friday afternoon, right? Like it is still maybe more technical than we would have thought about a decade ago, but we’re not necessarily coding everything. Even if we’re really trying to make technology work for us.

[00:09:17.14] spk_1:
What are the biggest Selling points uh that you want folks to know about? Is it is it the is it the keynote speakers? Is it the 100 50 plus sessions? What what what do you want to tell folks about?

[00:10:34.34] spk_3:
Yes, all those things. Um we have really incredible keynotes. Um Alice wong the creator of disability visibility. Um and she just announced her new book coming out this fall, which we didn’t know about. That’s not why we booked her, but then I was very excited to know. She has another book coming out. Um Angelica ross, many folks may know her from pose, but she created trans tax social and um see jones who I I cannot wait. Um a lot of community members are like, so you’d better bring his really cute dog because if anybody follows him on social, he’s always posting photos with his little cute dog. Um so we’ll see who makes an appearance in the keynote zoom video or whatever. Um but this year because because it is virtual, so we don’t have to worry about physically how many rooms the convention center holds. We just kind of threw out the old uh, rubric for how many sessions we can run and we have over 100 and 80 sessions in three days this year, which is bananas now that we’re trying to figure out how to host that many sessions concurrently, you know,

[00:10:40.38] spk_1:
technologically

[00:13:06.84] spk_3:
Right? We only have 16 staff, so we need, we need other people hosting the rooms. Um but it’s so awesome because that’s just that many more community members sharing experience and expertise that they have. And um you know, if you’re registered for the conference, of course, it’s amazing to participate live and and engage with people, but just like last year we’ll keep all the recordings up. So if you’re registered, you can go back and watch them and there were folks last year, you know, that went and rewatched sessions that they had missed live and there were folks like Up there, you know, had had watched 80 sessions for example. So if you really want to get all the, you know, squeeze the lemon like all the way to the last drop you really can. Um, so that’s an awesome resource. And what else? I think the other piece that’s fun that we really care the most about obviously is the sessions and the learning. But if you’ve ever been to an in person, ntc, we care so much about the community feel and the opportunities to meet other people because even though we know every single person in a nonprofit is using technology and and has a place in the antenna community, we know that, that isn’t really what it’s like in an organization, right? That like you might be the only one in your organization who really cares and wants to think about technology in this way and it can feel isolating regardless of what team you’re on. If you’re the only one who wants to have these conversations, it can feel really hard. Um, and so we want that same feeling of like, oh my gosh, I found my people, you know, even though it’s a virtual conference, so we have lots of non educational session things. Um, during the day, we every morning has, has like a coffee talk session. So people are having great conversations. You don’t have to be one of those people, you can just drink your coffee or eat your lunch and and listen and kind of warm up for the day. But we have community conversations all throughout the day and community members, attendees submit those topics. Um, you know, and there’s ones that are like knitters of NtC all the way over to people who want to talk about product management, you know, so it’s really whatever great way to find and meet new folks. And this year we’re also gonna have some that stretch into the evening so that you can kind of relax and have, you know, do do an evening meet up for, for an hour. Yeah,

[00:13:42.54] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want yourself or your non profit to be a thought leader around your work. A thought leader. It takes time to learn that credibility, but turn to, can get you there, get you to where your opinion is sought after, to where people come to you for advice to where you’re a leader for your cause.

[00:13:49.14] spk_2:
Thought leadership.

[00:14:02.04] spk_1:
Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony’s take two, Michael, Davidson and robert Sharpe

[00:14:16.74] spk_2:
JR both died recently. I played a tribute show for Michael because he had been a guest very recently, just in october So that was, that was fitting Michael, you know, such a a smart, humble gentleman,

[00:14:22.74] spk_1:
so knowledgeable about

[00:16:54.54] spk_2:
boards, board efficiency, board functioning, board fundraising, the ceo board dynamic, the staff, board dynamic he had decades of experience in, in all those areas and he was very willing to share that expertise that he had gained over over all those years. Uh, had been on nonprofit radio several times. I had done webinars with him, just always willing to share and, and a real gentleman. So Michael Davidson, robert Sharpe Jr, I just learned A few days ago that he died about 10 days ago. Um, very learned in planned giving. He had the rare gift of working in the weeds but also looking at the big picture, you know, he could be diving deep into a client data set to solve a problem or develop a strategy in the morning and then in the afternoon, do a training on legal strategies and, and forward looking planned giving opportunities based on, you know, current tax law. Ah again, you know that gift of, I guess working in the trees but also seeing the forest and the future of the forest. I hope I didn’t take that metaphor too far. Ah, I’ll always remember co teaching with him some seminars in new york city many years ago and I’ve been grateful to just have his friendship, his advice, you know, through the years. I’ll remember our, our dinners together in new york city that co teaching. Um, and him just being a, a learned gentlemen in gift planning, Michael Davidson and robert Sharpe Jr both, both recently died and always will be remembered.

[00:17:02.24] spk_1:
That is Tony’s take two We’ve got but loads more time for pay attention to 22 NTC with Amy Sample Ward only. But loads

[00:17:18.34] spk_2:
this week. Not boo koo, but loads this week is a short show packed with value but

[00:17:24.04] spk_1:
shorter than usual. What about equity and inclusion? You’re, you’re always, that’s always, it’s a core value of N 10. What are you

[00:17:30.40] spk_2:
doing around the Ntc for that?

[00:18:56.24] spk_3:
Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing to name really is it feels great that we’ve talked about that so centrally in our work for so many years now that we’re really at the place this year where when we were looking at the sessions that came in the session proposals, I think we had 500 some for 180 spots. And you know, years ago there would be like a session and its session name was like diversity equity and inclusion. Like what is it? How could you, you know, um, and now there aren’t any sessions that are assuming equity conversations are like over there, you know, in their own designated equity area. Right? It’s like regardless of what topic you’re presenting, whether it’s fundraising or how to do program delivery online or whatever. So many sessions just in the way they talked about their description or like, you know, the, the outcomes of the, of the session. We’re, what are the equitable implications for this topic. Right. What is it? What are the outcomes that might happen because of X. So it was just so awesome to see the whole community, really understanding equity as the, as the position from which we’re talking versus, oh, Equity is a thing we’ll think about at some point, you know? Um, so it’s all throughout the sessions

[00:19:14.94] spk_1:
now. It’s just, it’s right now, it’s woven in people know that it’s a, it’s a value for N 10, right? Um, you’ve, you’ve been, you’re like, you’re no longer, I don’t know. Is it is it right to say fair to say you no longer need to be conscious about, you know, uh, you include an equity component in your, in your in your in your session proposal. You know, it’s more likely to be well attended, right? I mean, you don’t have to be that

[00:20:24.94] spk_3:
intentionally because yeah, it’s like if you wouldn’t have thought of that, it’s probably not this the conference for you, right? Um, yeah. And there are some sessions that are really explicit, like they are here to talk about equity, but they’re not like, what is it? You know, it’s like, how do you equitably evaluate your impact? It’s probably not all your story to claim, right? Like really interesting conversations like that that I’m looking forward to. Um, but just like we have done in the past, in, in, um, in person conferences. You know, we have racial affinity spaces throughout the day. We have, you know, um, an an accessibility committee that helps you around supporting the conference. Um, and then we’ll have, you know, we have like an accessibility tour and, and places to make sure that whatever place you’re coming from, whatever ways you want to be engaged or or want the conference to adapt to be best for you. We are hopefully already planning for that. And there are ways for you to engage in those ways.

[00:20:37.24] spk_1:
How about some of the fun, the fun parts you mentioned evening sessions or evening meeting? Is there a, is there a replacement for NtC beer? I

[00:22:16.04] spk_3:
think that that I think the Ntc beer folks might be trying to organize um a pre Ntc virtual hangout. Um a really big piece last year that was very popular was we had some music and art sessions and so we’ve expanded those. So we’ve got um, I think five different bands have have signed on and so they’ll be performing a full set and we all get to watch it together and chat. Um we’ve got artists who will have depending on the, you know, there are different types of artists but um we’ll get to see their work and explore what they do and hear from them. Um, so you know, we really wanted to be a place where we’re kind of like feeding different parts of, of your, of yourself, right? So feeding with some knowledge and and new ideas but also, you know sometimes we have great ideas because we looked at a painting and we’re like, oh my mind like opened up that other space that I needed to to have this idea, right? So we really want to incorporate those different pieces and we always have things like meditation walks. Uh, last year we had no idea how walk was gonna go for a virtual conference, but a bunch of people like put zoom on their phone and they went walking in their neighborhood together, you know, even though they were all all over the the globe. So um, where there’s a will, where there’s a will, there’s a way in this community. Yes,

[00:22:40.24] spk_1:
what else? Um, what let’s say? Well let’s let me give my endorsement. Alright, so I wanted amy to talk about it obviously. Uh, so I’ve been bringing non profit radio too, a nonprofit technology conference since 2014 -2017 when I was uninvited seven years. So this is the eighth year that I’ll be capturing a bunch 25 to 30 interviews of, of smart speakers. It’s, it’s my

[00:22:51.24] spk_3:
chore.

[00:23:00.54] spk_1:
I know it’s my unenviable task to go through now. Now 180 sessions to pick out, You know, 50 or 60 to invite so that I get 25-30 folks who can meet, meet, meet at my times and and and want to sit. Um, and of course the virtual conference makes it so much easier because I don’t have to capture 25 or 30 interviews in 2.5 days.

[00:23:19.34] spk_3:
Well the exhibit hall is being torn down around,

[00:24:09.34] spk_1:
that’s right, the lights are going down, the forklift trucks are coming through with their backup back up beepers. non profit radio perseveres. I don’t care. I have something scheduled folks, you’re just gonna have to wait to take down my, well, you can take down my bunting if you want, but you can’t pull my electricity that’s all. Um no, so I’ll be capturing these, these almost, you know, maybe even 30 30 interviews um in the weeks after after the conference. So listeners will be getting a good sample of, of the smart speakers that are gonna be at ntC, but Not as good as having 180 potential videos. Maybe you can break the 80 person record, You know, You Wanna, You Wanna Watch one. Um these are smart people, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s an engaged smart community so

[00:24:15.04] spk_3:
we’ll have to do some sort of, you know, tracking and announce the top three leaderboard. You know,

[00:24:22.77] spk_1:
we

[00:24:48.74] spk_3:
did, we did, you know the platform that we hold the conference on. Um it has a bunch of stats that you can see back on the admin side and one of them is just hours logged in. I don’t know why you would, whatever, you know, um and we found that a staff person had a tab open and had minimized it and forgotten it was there and so you know, two months later, it was like, oh, this staff person has had, you know, 400 hours and was like, what are they doing? And then they was like, oh, they just never closed the tab, you

[00:25:15.04] spk_1:
know? Well if you, if you start to announce top three, then you know, you’re gonna need a quiz after each session. So I don’t want people just streaming videos, but not watching, I want them, you know, engaged with the content. So we’ll have to have a little quiz every 15 minutes or so,

[00:25:20.66] spk_3:
just like netflix.

[00:25:28.24] spk_1:
Yeah, right. I used to watch Yes, yes, something. Um All right. It’s uh, well, anything else, anything else that’s important that,

[00:26:03.84] spk_3:
I mean, I think, you know, the last thing I want to say is there’s even if you’re just now learning about the conference or just now remembering that the conference is coming up, you haven’t missed anything. You know, you can certainly still register there are sessions who are still looking for somebody who might want to co present with them and share their, you know, whatever expertise you might have. Um, and all those community conversations, We haven’t even opened the form for those yet. So you could also come and you know, put something on the agenda. It is not too late. You are welcome. We want you to be there and especially in a virtual world, like the more of us that are there, the better because then there’s more probability that you’ll find the people that you’re looking for

[00:27:01.24] spk_1:
March 23 24 25 go to n 10 dot org. It’s it’s splashed on the homepage, I’m sure. Right and 10 dot org. Okay, okay, non profit radio will be there, we’re going to be uh we’re gonna be capturing a bunch of interviews after um and so you’ll get a sample that way, but it’s not the same, it’s not the same as first of all, you just want to support the community. I mean I wouldn’t suggest, you know, I’m not suggesting just pay to go to the conference and then don’t show up but you want to be, this is a, this is a community you do want to support. So it’s a conference that’s worth it and in 2023 it’s gonna be back live in in person live, you’re gonna want to be in Denver, You’re gonna want to be in Denver, I will be there in Denver assuming I’m not uninvited like I was in 2017.

[00:27:08.04] spk_3:
I’m gonna have to print an invitation now just so that I avoid these accusations,

[00:27:37.94] spk_1:
I will go to Denver, yes non profit radio will be there in 2023 but you wanna you wanna support this in 2022 it’s just smart, you know, there’s a lot to learn, there’s a ton to learn, that’s why I capture so many of the interviews and I bring them to us here a nonprofit radio because there is so much to learn, but you can learn even more by joining the, you know, by by being in the, in the, in the live sessions and and the great fun the evening’s the affinity

[00:27:39.51] spk_3:
groups.

[00:27:41.64] spk_1:
It’s a good community.

[00:27:42.94] spk_3:
Yeah, it really is and will be better with you there. So whoever you are, I’m I’m looking at you through the interwebs and inviting you personally.

[00:28:04.84] spk_1:
Thank you very much amy and 10.org just to to join the conference. Amy is that AMY sample ward dot org and at AmY R S Ward and probably the next time that they’re on, we’ll be talking about

[00:28:09.74] spk_3:
the new book.

[00:28:36.74] spk_1:
That will be the next time. Yes. All right, good luck in the conference planning. Thank you over the next several weeks. And uh, we will, we will, we will be back soon. Thanks very much. Pleasure next week Founder’s syndrome with Heidi johnson. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o

[00:28:46.74] spk_2:
our creative producer is

[00:29:06.94] spk_0:
Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 27, 2021: “The Activist” Activates Activism

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: “The Activist” Activates Activism

Amy Sample Ward returns for a conversation about CBS’s proposed show “The Activist,” the backlash that ensued, the replacement show, competition, celebrity, and our proposal for an inclusive and appropriate media portrayal of true social change work. Amy is our technology and social media contributor, and the CEO of NTEN.

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big

[00:01:44.64] spk_0:
Non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of gastro paralysis if I had the stomach, the idea that you missed this week’s show, the activist activates activism. AmY sample Ward returns for a conversation about CBS proposed show the activist the backlash that ensued the replacement show, competition, celebrity and our proposal for an inclusive and appropriate media portrayal of true social change work. Amy is our technology and social media contributor and the ceo of N 10 On Tony’s take two last chance planned giving in the pandemic era were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is the activist activates activism. What a pleasure to always welcome back AMy sample Ward. You know who she is for pete’s sake. She’s our technology and social media contributor And Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. They are at AMY sample war dot org and at a me Rs 40 AMY. Welcome back.

[00:01:46.44] spk_1:
Thanks for having me.

[00:02:20.04] spk_0:
Absolutely. And I’m honoring your new pronouns. Yeah, So we’re we’re talking about the activist. And um, I want to, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m defending the activists. I mean, I think it’s indefensible. But you know you and I had some back and forth about it a little bit and I’m not as I had some thoughts that I felt like didn’t come out in the, in the whole conversation, but I mean it’s been withdrawn in its original form, so

[00:02:21.41] spk_1:
shifted in four matter whatever document

[00:03:19.24] spk_0:
emphasizing the indispensability of it. But there was still some things that I wanted to I want to talk about. So just that everybody’s aware on the same page. The activist was a television show from cBS Global citizen and live nation and amy feel free by the way to step in if you think I didn’t explain it. Well, it was a competition. It was a competition among six activists in health, education and the environment to activists per mission. And they were competing for basically social media attention. And the winner was going to present to The G-20 summit in Rome in in late October and they were tasked with competing in missions, media stunts, digital campaigns and community events. And so, uh,

[00:03:20.82] spk_1:
sounds like the world as I know it for nonprofits

[00:03:34.34] spk_0:
everyday. So Alright, yeah, not an accurate, not an accurate depiction of activism. Right. But so what were you what were your thoughts? God, I described it. What what what were you your thoughts about the activists?

[00:05:39.44] spk_1:
I have a number of thoughts and I think that, you know, a place that we could start is just what what we just said there about the competition piece. And and then I really want to get into the celebrity or the celebratory izing of what this work is and um, you know, competition, it is a very dangerous mindset that exists in the sector already, you know, and isn’t serving us by thinking we’re in competition with each other. And I think there’s a large movement of practitioners and social change work and organizations trying to really force and invite people to let go of that kind of for profit world adopted mindset that we’re in competition and we’re fighting over the dollars and we’re fighting over the credit and we’re fighting over who gets the attention and instead like, where has that gotten us? Is the world dramatically better? I would say no. So what happens if we’re not in competition? What happens if we believe that together we have all the resources that we have, all of the, um, you know, materials that we need and we really start doing that work in collaboration. What does it look like to really work in deep collaboration in community with each other, not just with the community members that we’re trying to support. So just off the bat, it felt like such a slap in the face of that work of the sector to say, hey, we’re, we don’t have to be in competition. Um, and I think we’ve seen the same backlash that came to the show, came to foundations for years, who were running the exact same types of competitions, you know, hey, whoever gets the most likes and votes in this week, we’ll get our foundation grant like those happen for a number of years, you know, and they stopped because so many folks organized to tell foundations like, oh my gosh, this is obviously so harmful. And it is, is naturally only going to get the same people who win that could have already had the most resources anyway because they have the most resources to mobilize people to help them win. Right? Like it’s not actually creating an opportunity for folks that are unknown to become the recipients of that attention. Right?

[00:06:01.44] spk_0:
Yeah. And I agree on the competitive aspect. I mean I’m railing regularly with guests against the scarcity mindset, which, which is what competition creates. That it’s, you know, aligned with that is the zero sum that if they, if they’re getting something, then I’m not getting it

[00:06:21.64] spk_1:
right. If somebody’s winning the activist, the rest of us lost the activist. Right? Like,

[00:06:28.24] spk_0:
right? Say it again.

[00:06:29.18] spk_1:
I said, if one person wins the activists than all the rest of us lost,

[00:07:22.54] spk_0:
we’ve all right, that’s right. That’s right. Um, so I, I agree that the competitive way that they organized it was it’s antithetical to what we’re all what we’re all trying to achieve. And I know just bring it down to like nonprofit radio ground. It’s antithetical to what lots of guests and I have been talking against for the 11 years. I’ve been doing the show, it’s just, we’re not in competition. We should be in collaboration? And you’re and you’re seeing more grantmakers recognizing that over not that’s not just so recent like over the past but probably 10 years or so that fortunately that that collectivism uh collectivism leads to a grant was pretty short lived. Right? Right? And I think

[00:07:43.84] spk_1:
you’re right remember foundations didn’t just stop doing the hey how many likes do you get you get a grant competitions? They also moved the other way and said hey we will fund, coalitions, will fund collaborative work, will fund intentionally in that way. Yeah. Yeah. But on the other side of things, the celebrity piece I think does a couple of things making it seem like activism is this celebrity level, you know like you’re on the T. V. Show because you’re with whoever like Usher, you know

[00:08:08.04] spk_0:
these celebrity Julianne, I don’t know if it’s Julianne huff for Julian, how are you? And uh Priyanka chopra Jonas so

[00:10:24.14] spk_1:
creating this like celebrity nous around around quote unquote activists around social change work more broadly because I don’t know what people think activism of, you know, I think is really damaging, it makes it feel like it is something reserved for a famous person, right? And that I think we already really struggle in the nonprofit sector with this patriarchal white dominant view that what we’re doing in social change work is actual charity, right? And it’s like some old white dudes, white wife’s pet project, right? And so of course you’re invited to the fancy celebrity balls because like you are also in that class, right? And and the work of social change is not like high class, right? Like we’re relegated down here, which is like we’re trying to get rid of classism. So the idea that we would reinforce that kind of elevated these are the fancy people that get the credit for doing the work and the rest of us aren’t um I think it’s a really hard kind of mirror to hold up in 2021 again to a lot a lot of folks, not just you and I like none of this is new, right? Lots of people have said this, but I don’t know that what the world was needing was a couple people to be elevated as if they were celebrities for for doing important work or that it be presented as something that those single people have done. There is no work to change communities to resource communities, to change our world, that someone single person has done. So, again, the celebrity pieces very exclusive. It’s like of all the people in Hollywood, right? Like these are the people that made the movies and got the awards. So it’s also like of all the people doing this work. These are the famous people and it’s it’s that’s it, they’re separate. It’s very hard and exclusive to be part of that world, I don’t know does any favours.

[00:11:19.94] spk_0:
And I saw that Julianne, h you know, apologized and said that she was not suited to be a judge, not qualified to be a judge. Of course, that all she just only did that after the after the backlash, she didn’t realize upfront that she’s not qualified to judge social change work, which she may not even know that phrase. You know, we’re not I’m not giving her much credit, but she didn’t realize upfront that she wasn’t qualified to judge activists. Yeah, this part is where you know, see I think that you’re you’re not giving enough credit to future social change workers and volunteers. I feel like people are bright enough to recognize that poverty doesn’t get solved by. Usher coming to a club event in Los Angeles, I

[00:11:20.76] spk_1:
don’t know that you can save

[00:11:21.87] spk_0:
1000 people. Well, I mean looking

[00:11:32.24] spk_1:
around the world right now, it does not seem that people are understanding or acknowledging How things will change and what the work is to change them. Like just looking at examples from 20, alone, it doesn’t seem like the world is all on board for

[00:12:43.74] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications attention spans are short and there is an overwhelming volume of media. We all know this. So how do you get heard and remembered you find your core message and you make it concise turn to, we’ll get you there that can help you with that. So that as they get you placed in those major media outlets that you’ve heard me name and in podcasts, in blogs, in conferences, in op ed pages. Your concise core message resonates. They will help you hone your message and get it heard because your story is their mission turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. Now back to the activist activates activism. What examples are you looking at?

[00:12:51.24] spk_1:
I mean, we could look at schools, we could look at rent relief, we could look at college loan forgiveness. We could look at all of these topics where the residents of what’s needed

[00:12:57.96] spk_0:
activists behind each of those. I mean, I was thinking of, I was thinking of the grassroots black lives matter.

[00:13:11.84] spk_1:
Oh totally. I’m not saying there aren’t movements there, but the idea of the country. Sure. But I think there’s still a lot of folks who feel like and

[00:13:12.43] spk_0:
me too, and

[00:13:38.04] spk_1:
we should just be able to have those things, you know, go a certain way and not like Black lives Matter. Didn’t start in 2020 you know, and going for years and years and I think a lot of folks deep in the Black Lives Matter movement would say yes, there have been important winds, there have been important changes and look at where we are at like this is a long path and not everybody is here for long path work, you know.

[00:13:51.24] spk_0:
Oh yeah, I don’t, not everybody is here for a long path work. No,

[00:13:53.69] spk_1:
I mean, how many folks just use that example, how many folks put up a, you know, we whatever kind of empty we we support Black Lives statement last summer and have taken it off their website and have done no material change in their work. Right?

[00:15:29.54] spk_0:
All right. Well, those are among the yeah, those are among the frivolous people or entities, corporations, whatever they did it for publicity. It was it was good for a few months. They gave their corporate promise not to. Uh well, now I’m shifting gears a little bit, but the corporate promises not to give too uh folks in Congress who voted to decertify the election, you know? But those promises only lasted a month or a couple of months or something. And they found back channel ways to do it maybe even during maybe when their pledge was still up. But yeah, now, uh okay. I just All right. I guess you’re looking more at the negative examples I’m looking at. I mean, there was activism beginning with uh when as much as I don’t like to do politics on the show, I went to the I went to the the rally right after trump was elected, the january january 2017 rally in Washington D. C. The women’s. The wasn’t called women’s March. And yeah, um I mean, there’s are a million or a million people sure showed up and and protested what looked like a, well, it looked like at the time, it’s gonna be a white, you know, white dominant narrative party and emerged to be that and much more in terms of.

[00:16:12.04] spk_1:
But I actually think these examples you’re bringing up our disproving your point, because the point you were making, I think was something we talked about when when the when the cameras weren’t rolling, when the when the recording wasn’t going of, you know, a show like, this is gonna really put this kind of work in the spotlight and it’s going to bring more people into the sector, but the the stories that you’re bringing up or showing that, like, well before this show, which hasn’t aired yet, there were plenty of people already showing up. So I don’t know that we have been waiting on a show that celebrities is what activism work is to have people feel like doing social change is something that they can and should be a part of.

[00:16:37.34] spk_0:
Well, all right, that was an early opinion to when I was before, I had done a lot of research before, I thought more about it. Um I just I think, again, I think it’s it short changes folks to think that they believe that celebrity is the the root of activism, celebrity is essential to activism.

[00:18:28.14] spk_1:
I’m not making the point that it’s essential to it, but I’m saying that when you remove people from the work and make them celebrities, it is now detached from the work and so it is, it’s reinforcing a weird dynamic in the sector that the people that will get that visibility are then removed and are up here as celebrities, you know, I think even just to keep on the women’s March example, a lot of the folks that were the core organizers of that very first Women’s March, which has continued and taken on other work as well, you know, have have faced a lot of harshness when put in celebrity spotlight for their role in that both people tearing them apart, finding other things, they’ve been a part of in their past and claiming that because they worked on some other campaign now they’re actually have some secret motive to tear this movement down, that it hasn’t been good when visibility has come to them, but so I just, I think naming what celebrity does to a movement is important as part of what I think folks were asking the organizing non profit to account for, you know, I think part of what folks were calling and giving feedback to global citizen about wasn’t like, hey, this is an awful show format, it was take accountability for what is going to happen if you are removing these people and you’re turning them into celebrities instead of honoring that they are people doing work who are full humans, right, they are not about social media likes and media blitz competitions, like we have to give space for people’s wholeness, otherwise we’re just gonna chew them up and spit them out, like, like we do with a lot of other celebrity culture, right? And that’s not going to be good for the movements they’ve been deeply invested in.

[00:18:40.54] spk_0:
And and the I think the backlash itself demonstrated that there are people who recognize that the work is deeper than a culture of celebrity,

[00:18:52.66] spk_1:
Right?

[00:19:38.14] spk_0:
You know, and so I don’t I don’t think those who are currently in social change work are the only ones who recognize that it’s deeper work than a culture of celebrity. That’s what I’m saying. And even folks who are, you know, the current teenagers, I think as I think they would recognize, I mean they might have been drawn to the show for the wrong reason, but I think as they, as they aged and for those who emerged into social change work and true activism, that they would, well, they’d eventually face the harsh reality if they went in with, if they went in with the wrong impression, that would quickly be uh quickly be defeated as they didn’t get any jobs because they kept telling interviewers that they wanted to rub shoulders with,

[00:19:48.16] spk_1:
they wanted the celebrity position.

[00:20:42.74] spk_0:
Yeah, right. Um but I think they would have been smart enough. I think even young folks are smart enough to have to have come to the to recognize that it’s it’s more than celebrities in a, at an event in a club. All right now, all right, So I want to give global citizen there do because they did uh there was a joint statement from CBS and global citizen and live nation. And then Global citizen also had its own statement which said in part global activism centers on collaboration and cooperation, not competition. We apologize to the activists, hosts and the larger activist community. We got it wrong. It is our responsibility to use this platform in the most effective way to realize change and elevate the incredible activists dedicating their lives to progress all around the world. So they came around and that’s a to me that’s a very that’s a very responsible apology

[00:20:49.54] spk_1:
to Yeah, I mean it doesn’t account for

[00:20:52.44] spk_0:
in fact they got into it. Yeah, it was

[00:20:54.72] spk_1:
like this all of it happened the same

[00:20:57.91] spk_0:
thing I said about Julian H where were you when we were when the producers first approached you.

[00:21:27.24] spk_1:
Yeah. And they say that accountability is, you know, demonstrating that you actually heard the feedback and will change. So I I hear that there was like, we get the people are mad and we will change the format, but but I think it would have been also awesome to hear like, hey, honestly, this is what we have been looking at and what we were valuing when we made that decision and here’s how we’re going to change those values. So this doesn’t happen again because because global citizen is a very prominent, well resourced organization themselves. And

[00:21:43.04] spk_0:
so

[00:21:58.44] spk_1:
as far as as far as apologies go, you know, versus a statement. But had it been more of an actual apology, that’s what I would have wanted to hear. Hey, this is what we were valuing. This is how we made this original decision and this is how we’re going to change those values so that we don’t make this decision again.

[00:23:04.24] spk_0:
I agree, but based on the way they operate. I’m not sure that they are capable of that now. I didn’t know a lot about global citizens, but they give points for activism and you trade in those points for rewards like um like V. I. P. Experiences like tickets and gift cards and subscriptions. So you know, like earned 20 points call congress, I was just on the website earlier. 20 points support Covid 19 relief for LGBT plus people. uh you get 10 points if you end the pandemic for all, which didn’t seem right to me. But if the LGBT community gets 20 points, how come the whole world, everybody everybody plus LGBT only gets half. That makes sense. That part didn’t make sense to me. I thought it I thought if LGBT is 20 then the whole world should be like 200 I thought or 2000 because there’s so many more, you know? But all right. So I

[00:23:05.14] spk_1:
mean their fundamental they give the business model is already based on currency of how you act and there’s

[00:23:15.14] spk_0:
get VIP backstage experiences. So, I

[00:23:50.94] spk_1:
Mean there’s a reason why they were the ones about 1.8 million us non profits while they were the organization in this deal of course, because they are ones that are already set up kind of doing work in that way. But maybe the feedback was more than just the show, you know, like maybe there was something to here in that reaction that was about what they are valuing in the work versus just the the tv format of this, it

[00:24:17.74] spk_0:
was not their business model and I don’t think they want to hear that it’s all right. That’s why I say, I don’t think they’re capable of the kind of apology that you’re talking about because I don’t think they want to question their business model in their core values, they get, you know, they have millions of activists and billions of people affected, you know, like, so, so if I sign a petition to end the pandemic for all, doesn’t that count as seven billion people affected because I’ve signed a petition for the whole world is that that’s you know, and I

[00:25:31.34] spk_1:
think this is the difficulty of um this this time we find ourselves in of being alive and In 2021 of there are so many things at least on my list, I’m sure on your list too that I think would need to dramatically change or go away and be formed a new in order for us to have a world even slightly close to an equitable world and if there’s that many things to change and there’s that many needs, you know, there’s going to have to be a whole lot of ways that we try to get there and lots of different missions, lots of different versions of the same mission, right? Like we have to try everything and anything to try to get there within reason, not like truly trying anything and everything. And so, you know, the model of global citizen, not for me, I’m not going to work there and I’m not going to like take the point based actions, are there people that take them? Yes,

[00:25:33.95] spk_0:
great.

[00:26:39.84] spk_1:
And so like there can there and maybe that will go away at some point in this very long journey that hopefully everybody has signed on to right of getting to a better world. But it’s hard because I feel challenged to hold on to like that’s not for me. And but maybe it’s for someone, right? Like just because I don’t like that flavor ice cream doesn’t mean that flavor of ice cream shouldn’t exist. And so like how do we how do we take a like, harm reduction mentality versus and I like idealistic, there’s some perfect rubric um and not that I think you’re saying that, but for me, I think, OK, well if we’re if we’re if we’re going to say harm reduction because we can’t avoid that right now, then maybe it’s not doing a show that’s profiling people through global citizen, that’s profiling people through local grassroots, you know, like interviews and finding folks who are doing work outside of traditional models or you know, whatever it might be like maybe the, maybe the invitation then for harm reduction in creating some ridiculous tv show is sourcing the folks that are going to be featured in a different way.

[00:28:45.44] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two last chance planned giving him the pandemic era. It’s your life. If you miss it, I don’t know what else to say. It’s hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. Thank you. Thank you very much. JmT. It’s on September 30, 2-3 eastern time and here’s what’s on the agenda. What plan to giving is who your best prospects are, where to start your program. And how does plan giving fit in our pandemic era to make your reservation. You got, it’s free by the way, this is free, but you got to make a reservation JMT consulting dot com go to events and then middling speaker series. Actually, it’s not middling, you know, it’s not lackluster either where I would be the only person listed. It’s the expert speaker series. Yak. Yak Yak, that’s where you go, Expert speaker series, I hope you’ll be with me September 30, let’s talk about planned giving in our pandemic era and yeah, all important your questions. The most important part I think that’s the most important part of any webinar because that puts the focus on what you’re thinking. What you didn’t quite grasp how the topic relates to your work. The questions the all important Q. And A. Of course it’s included. I didn’t mention that in the agenda but and I don’t want to I don’t want to assume that it’s uh it’s there just trust me plenty of time for Q. And A. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the activist activates activism which I am kind of enjoying saying. I’ve always thought about doing a podcast that elevates grassroots work. But yeah but you have to be more of a storyteller. Yeah. I’m not my podcast. This show is not about storytelling. I’m not a storyteller I would need a producer who’s a good storyteller. You

[00:29:01.36] spk_1:
can chat to somebody.

[00:30:02.24] spk_0:
Yeah I can chat. I know but it’s not it’s not gonna it’s not gonna go is it not gonna be that it’s not gonna be that interesting beyond the nonprofit community. I’m talking about a show whether it’s a podcast or T. V. Or Youtube stream whatever Livestream whatever it is that tells the story of a community of nonprofits or a single non profit and how they’re doing their work, how they’ve evolved how their work is evolved. Maybe they have a pivoted at some point because they realized they weren’t not, maybe not only doing well, but we’re doing good, but maybe they’re doing harm. So they had to change and tells that story the arc of a nonprofit grassroots work that, but as I said, that takes a storyteller and the and the global citizen. I mean, that’s a that’s a counter example, the activism around global citizen as a counter example to what I said earlier about having faith in future activists, because they’re a bunch of people who are just doing collectivism and they’re getting V. I. P. Experience is after they trade in their their 2000 points. So I realized that’s a counter example of what I was saying, but they’re not the folks that I’m paying attention to

[00:30:08.37] spk_1:
write well and maybe, you know,

[00:30:10.48] spk_0:
have faith, I have faith in humanity, is what I’m saying.

[00:30:12.88] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m hopeful that

[00:30:15.45] spk_0:
future social change workers,

[00:31:00.84] spk_1:
how they’ve changed the format. Of course, we’re gonna get to I have watched it or whatever, but, you know, changing the format to being a doctor who series, presumably then like, each episode, just about one of them or whatever, really does honor the community of work. You know, whatever movement there in not just that person, and I think in doing that it could contribute to the point you were trying to make earlier then people see that and think they could be part of it because it isn’t about, oh, like, what are the odds that I would be Sarah or you know whoever the person is versus oh I could be in that movement right? And that movement is accessible to me. Well that’s the big piece that I think is important.

[00:31:40.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I like it’s accessible. I I could see myself as part of that well because it removes the competition, removes the celebrity right? Two of the most offensive parts of the whole endeavour. The initial the initial endeavour. Alright, alright. Um something else that we chatted about an email. Uh you know I have to be careful but I don’t want us to be as a community so self righteous that we think we can’t be accurately portrayed in, in in popular

[00:31:42.91] spk_1:
culture.

[00:31:44.84] spk_0:
Um and I, you know I went back, you know I was thinking remember the philanthropist

[00:31:51.84] spk_1:
kind of, it was a name but I don’t, I never thought it

[00:31:56.33] spk_0:
was, it was prevalent. It was, I’m not citing it as a good example of popular culture.

[00:32:01.83] spk_1:
Don’t my netflix queue.

[00:32:15.34] spk_0:
I don’t even, I think they struck it. I don’t even think it’s available but it was a jet setting billionaire. He did good deeds motivated by, he saved a uh huh a black child in Nigeria from a hurricane or something and it was a pivotal moment in his life.

[00:32:21.36] spk_1:
White White savior is that

[00:32:35.74] spk_0:
exactly. Uh I think he had his own jet or something. I don’t know but he had the means to travel around the world and do good deeds for, for less fortunate people of color, uh, throughout the world

[00:32:36.84] spk_1:
how, and how grateful the world was for him

[00:33:17.94] spk_0:
as well. So that, that was frivolous. That was from. Um, but I, so I’m not trying to extreme these things together and just, you know, another example of that, that was a bet that was a bad attempt. I just, so there’s, there’s a philanthropist. Now there’s the activist. I don’t want us to get to a point where we feel that we, like I said that we, there can’t be an accurate portrayal of our, of our work, uh, in, in, in, in media and popular culture because because there’s no, there’s no profession that’s accurately portrayed. Sure. I mean, you know, law and order, law enforcement doesn’t happen in half hour bites from investigation to verdict. It just doesn’t, it doesn’t work that way.

[00:33:28.09] spk_1:
I mean, the office seemed pretty accurate for what I imagine is a small, very small, small corporate office.

[00:33:53.54] spk_0:
Um, it was even better when it was Ricky chavis. Um, yeah, all right. The act right. But they weren’t, they weren’t activists, but they were Dunder Mifflin. Um, so that’s all, I just don’t want us to, like I said, like I already said, I don’t want it to be too self righteous that the work has to be so accurately portrayed that no portrayal will suffice.

[00:34:25.74] spk_1:
Sure, but I guess like what, what’s the show that does that, that like, is accurately portraying the work is not sensationalizing. It is not, you know, making light of it or making it seem frivolous. Like, what is that? Like a lot of, a lot of movement work is emails, google, docs, socializing ideas with different partners,

[00:34:32.58] spk_0:
watch that show or listen to that podcast.

[00:35:03.74] spk_1:
Right. And so I guess that’s my question. Like what’s what’s the show that is an accurate portrayal? That isn’t, that isn’t either sensationalizing it and making it feel like every nonprofit is out there saving babies every day and like, and then they’re not. So then our donors then saying, oh well, like you’re so, let me go find the one that is right. Like what I’m willing, I’m willing to hear your plate, but I want to hear like an example that that convinces me, well, there isn’t one

[00:35:43.24] spk_0:
yet, but it’s the show that will, when I find the right producer, it will tell a genuine and not heartstring, not, not not a heartstring story, but we’ll tell a genuine story of successes and failures and how, how that organization or that community of organizations have improved their, you know, improved the water in their community or, or sheltered animals or sheltered mothers and and Children right? There, there is a, there is a space for a heartfelt genuine story that’s not, not sensationalized,

[00:35:52.09] spk_1:
right?

[00:35:53.74] spk_0:
Nobody’s produced it yet. Right.

[00:37:15.43] spk_1:
Well, and I also think there’s a, I would anticipate even somebody looking to produce that would rely on some of the same structures that many others have relied on which is like it’s a five oh one C three registered organization. They have these types of staff, they have this type of funding, they’re in good relationship with a foundation, like the things that are already a kind of reinforcing more privileged organizations now, even if they’re small versus what’s the space for the group that has chosen never to file with the I. R. S. And it’s not A C. Three and you know, maybe fiscally sponsored or just operating on mutual aid. Like how do we make room in the storytelling of what the work is to say that it isn’t just a five oh one C. Three that has a certain amount of income that files and 9 90 right? Like there are a lot of people and there’s going to have to be a lot of people doing work in a lot of different ways for things to change because also like maybe the I. R. S. Should change like, right? Like there’s a lot of layers to what could and should be happening for us to get out of us a self perpetuating cycle of of maintaining social issues so that we can maintain a sector that’s like Top five of of the sectors in the US right?

[00:37:42.33] spk_0:
Yeah. You’re you’re trending towards the uh you’re trending toward the you’re not self righteous. I know you but yeah if you want there to be a if you want there to be something that people pay attention to it’s got to be I don’t want to say it’s got to be mainstreamed but

[00:37:47.03] spk_1:
You feel like if there was a show let me clarify you are feeling that if there is a show that’s profiling like the honest good work especially at the grassroots level and it included folks who did not have a registered 501 C3 that that would be harmful.

[00:38:31.62] spk_0:
Now I don’t know I just don’t. No actually it could be beneficial. Yeah I was focusing more on the 1.7 or eight million charities that are 501 C threes. Sure. No but there’s of course there’s space for non non registered activist work. Just we have to find those people and tell their stories just as an amplify their stories just as well. Just as well as we amplify the five oh one C threes

[00:39:17.92] spk_1:
right? That’s my point. My point is just remembering that we’re not even their ideal break was being like create a great show. We don’t borrow. They’re like oh well they must they must check these boxes right? And change that mindset in ourselves. Even as we were imagining some wonderful show that all of the producers of T. V. Shows are listening to this radio and now we’ll contact you tony and want to produce it you know? But like even even as we’re imagining things, we’re challenging ourselves to let go of structures that don’t serve us so that we can imagine differently because I think that’s a big that’s needed. I

[00:39:48.82] spk_0:
was being myopic. Yeah, I agree. That could be a very genuine heartfelt story. How come how come you don’t qualify or never pursued your I. R. S designation because then people could give to you and and they were doing a tax deduction. How come you don’t participate in that structure is the reason it’s just you don’t feel like you have access, you don’t feel you have the resources or you just don’t want to be part of that structure. Right? Okay. Yeah, you’re right. I agree those those are genuine heartfelt, important and impactful stories too. So nobody’s done this show, but I’m sure there’s a space for it. I mean, I don’t see this on cbs

[00:39:59.53] spk_1:
but public,

[00:40:01.40] spk_0:
public radio, public television.

[00:41:49.81] spk_1:
Right. Right. And I think just to tie it back to, you know, the activist where we started this conversation, I think, you know, if if a group, whether it was netflix or cbs or NPR came For example here to Portland and said, Hey there’s some really strong mutual aid efforts happening here. We want to profile you on this show, it will be 40 minute beautiful documentary. I imagine it would also cause a lot of challenge for the community to say who gets to have their voice. You know, like the premise of mutual aid is that it’s like all of us coming together to support each other. And so what what does it look like again? Even even if it isn’t positioned as a competition for G 20 access, what does it mean in that moment to celebrities or give credit to certain people within within quote unquote, you know, social work. And I think well I’m not presenting that as a challenge. Like there could never be a documentary please. I would love there to be way more people profiled for doing change work. My point is saying even even in this other scale or premise of the show or storytelling, I think it’s important still to ask the questions of are we creating a dynamic that is harmful? Are we allowing there to be space for lots of voices and not, you know, inadvertently trying to put one person’s face on the episode tile as if they’re the face of that movement, right? Like how are we honoring this is community work and not just um you know, maybe unintentionally from, from lack of you know, paying attention doing the same cycle again and turning things into one person’s story.

[00:41:54.31] spk_0:
Alright, alright. I’d like you to be an advisor on the

[00:41:57.59] spk_1:
show,

[00:41:59.76] spk_0:
but I want you to agree that we don’t want to let make perfect be the enemy of the good.

[00:42:14.50] spk_1:
No, no. And I think that we can achieve that by having really intentional decision making. Instead of running with opportunity right? Like going slower with intention than going faster without it

[00:42:24.60] spk_0:
going slower with intentions. Yeah because we do want it we right we want to honor the voices and the work.

[00:42:28.60] spk_1:
But I and I want some fancy title. So when the credits go pie people are like what is that? You know look at

[00:42:35.39] spk_0:
you you just you just contradicted everything you just said

[00:42:48.60] spk_1:
I want you said that that I’m a producer on the show. So you already I want something that doesn’t say producer. I it’s

[00:42:49.55] spk_0:
like you’re already you’re already elevated yourself already making it about you. You just said we don’t want to make it about one person. I said advisor you elevated yourself the producer.

[00:43:15.90] spk_1:
I don’t know what the difference in those words is. So what a contradiction. I don’t work in tv. What’s the, tell me what the difference between an advisor and producers. I thought producers like just I always thought a producer was like a convenient name because you didn’t you weren’t like actually part of the show.

[00:43:20.10] spk_0:
I think producers are they get the money, you give the money or they make the money or they find the money they find it among their connections and their and their corporate the media people they know uh they like they make it happen

[00:43:35.70] spk_1:
well so I’m gonna need okay so if I’m going to advise you on something that I’m gonna need to go to some like some class about what what you do to make a T. V. Show because I have never been involved in that world.

[00:43:48.70] spk_0:
All right. And I’m not restricted to television either.

[00:43:52.60] spk_1:
Okay. Cool, interpretive dance.

[00:44:17.89] spk_0:
That’s too esoteric. Alright. Somewhere between interpretive dance and television. Okay. There’s plenty of media space. Alright. Alright. Um Yeah, I I believe there’s a space for a show that people will will follow that tells the story correctly. Yeah. All right. All right. Anything you want to leave us with? I’ll give you the last word is

[00:44:45.99] spk_1:
I will You’ve already said that. You agree with me. So, I’ll say I agree with you on that. There is something here. I don’t know that it’s the activist but hopefully we can as we explore. I think a lot of different storytelling podcast. You know like there’s there is a a rich history of people of being storytellers and finding places where we elevate well, the work to change our world as something we prioritize in the stories we tell.

[00:44:57.29] spk_0:
I agree. I agree. Alright. Maybe we’ll watch the documentary uh whenever it comes out and maybe

[00:45:00.66] spk_1:
we’ll have a watch party.

[00:45:04.79] spk_0:
Maybe we’ll review at least the first one. We’ll give it give it an even shot. The first. Yeah. Used to be a doctor series. I didn’t catch that much. Is it supposed to be a series? Okay. Yeah. All right. So

[00:45:13.33] spk_1:
I think it’s still multiple episodes and like you know. All

[00:45:17.11] spk_0:
right, we’ll give it a shot. Give the first one a shot and see what they do.

[00:45:20.89] spk_1:
Okay. I think we should have non profit radio watch party. Have everybody tweet while they’re watching it or something, you know,

[00:45:30.69] spk_0:
we could do that with the hashtag uh Alright, thank you very much. Good to talk to you.

[00:45:32.35] spk_1:
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for the good conversation.

[00:45:44.79] spk_0:
Thank you amy sample word. Our technology and social media contributor And they are ceo of N 10 at a me sample ward dot org and at amy R S Ward. Thanks again.

[00:45:51.09] spk_1:
Thanks tony

[00:46:21.58] spk_0:
next week, Jeanne Takagi returns with risk management one and I am going to miss saying the activist activates activism. The activist activates activism. It’s very clever. It must it must have been written by the intern if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O

[00:46:24.58] spk_2:
our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is

[00:46:27.84] spk_0:
by Susan Chavez.

[00:46:54.98] spk_2:
Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm