Tag Archives: Amy Sample Ward

Nonprofit Radio for July 19, 2021: 550th Show!

My Guests:

Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Gene Takagi & Amy Sample Ward: 550th Show!

It’s Nonprofit Radio’s 11th Anniversary and 550th show! To celebrate, we’ve got the whole gang together. Claire Meyerhoff, our creative producer, co-hosts. We have live music from Scott Stein, composer of our theme music, Cheap Red Wine. Our esteemed contributors are with us: Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward. Join us!

 

 

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Transcript for 550_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20210719.mp3

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[00:00:04.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:12.98] spk_1:
radio big non profit ideas

[00:00:15.56] spk_0:
for the other

[00:00:16.99] spk_1:
95

[00:00:17.62] spk_0:
percent. I’m your

[00:00:19.06] spk_1:
aptly named host

[00:00:20.37] spk_2:
of your

[00:00:20.88] spk_1:
favorite abdominal

[00:00:22.04] spk_0:
podcast,

[00:00:23.42] spk_2:
it’s

[00:00:49.34] spk_1:
R 550th show, you hear the live music, It’s our 11th anniversary welcome, welcome to the anniversary show, we’ve got live music and much more of that to come. We got lots of guests and the guests begin with my co host, Claire Meyerhoff, she’s our creative producer and principal of the plan to giving agency PG agency dot com. Claire, Welcome to the 11th anniversary 550th show,

[00:01:09.94] spk_2:
Tony I cannot believe that this is the 550th show because when I first spoke to you about this show, when we sat across from each other at a restaurant and cary north Carolina, I said to you, you want to do a radio show, are you crazy? Do you know how much work it is And you were like yes, I want to do this radio show And here we are, 550 shows later. It’s quite an accomplishment. Congratulations, Tony

[00:01:16.01] spk_1:
Thank you very much, Claire. Yes, we started in july of 2010. So you and I would have been having that lunch in cary north Carolina, probably

[00:01:25.58] spk_2:
25 years old,

[00:01:27.74] spk_1:
June of 2010. There was we

[00:01:35.74] spk_2:
Were like 26, years old then, you know, we were so young Now We’re pushing 40.

[00:01:39.94] spk_1:
No, we didn’t. Claire has always been a dreamer.

[00:01:41.38] spk_2:
I love them, I’m a dreamer.

[00:01:43.14] spk_1:
Uh we didn’t know what we were doing but I knew I wanted to do it. And you’ve been the creative creative juice since the beginning.

[00:02:16.54] spk_2:
I have been every once in a while. tony will hit me up, he’ll go Clara and I need some new something, something for this. You got something like yeah, I’ll read you something. There we go. That’s my job as creative creative producer. Was mostly at the beginning to be the creative producer. And what I said to Tony at the time was I said you know what I would really just like a credit on the show that way if it becomes really successful. My name is always like in this show and that’s really what I wanted. And over the years I’ve been working with clients and they go for you know I was on this thing and they said your name.

[00:02:19.54] spk_1:
I kept my word every every show, your credit to

[00:02:23.19] spk_2:
this creative producer, Clair Meyerhoff. Yeah. Doug White said that when he was a guest he was like I was on the tony-martignetti show and then at the end they said that you were you were a producer and I was like yes I

[00:02:33.15] spk_1:
am glad that

[00:02:34.33] spk_2:
beautiful with that beautiful

[00:02:35.38] spk_1:
bass voice that he has.

[00:02:36.67] spk_2:
Oh I know he should sell it

[00:02:42.54] spk_1:
Russia, It’s like honey, it’s like a sweet honey. It’s wonderful. So what’s going on with you and the PG agency?

[00:03:27.44] spk_2:
The agency, the plan giving agency. Well, you know, I’m a creative person as my title suggests on tony-martignetti non profit radio And so I am in the creative space of philanthropy and I kind of specialized in planned giving, which tony um is a very great expert on and so I help non profits make the most out of their burgeoning plan giving programs. And a lot of times it’s just they have nothing. And I come in and I create sort of a nice back end for them and help them talk to them a little bit about talking to their donors about making a gift of a lifetime, like leaving their favorite charity and their estate plans or is the beneficiary of a retirement plan and you know, all those wonderful things in the wonderful world of plan giving.

[00:03:43.84] spk_1:
Cool. Yes, I do know a couple things about it a lot and uh, welcome the creative energy that, that

[00:04:08.14] spk_2:
you bring. Not only I, but I learned a lot from you tony that’s how we first met, because I was writing an article for something and I, you were my expert and then I said, you know, I have to write this stuff and sometimes I don’t understand. And you said, well, you can reach out to me if you have a question about something. And I did, I’d say, well, what’s this or what’s that? And you’d explain it really well. And I still remember a lot of the things that you told me at the very beginning and I use those in my, in my practice today, such as, you know, spending a lot of time trying to reach and engage younger donors and tony was like, don’t you want the money sooner.

[00:04:17.47] spk_1:
I remember you were writing that article, I remember who you were writing it for two. Yes,

[00:04:22.27] spk_2:
yes, yes.

[00:04:34.44] spk_1:
That, that brought us together. Yes. And then I knew you had a background in radio. And so I I saw your, I saw your wisdom about starting a radio show. That’s, that’s the podcast of

[00:04:52.84] spk_2:
course. Exactly, Exactly. And so you built it out really as a radio show and it’s, it’s cool that way because a lot of times podcasts are kind of like podcasting, but if you do more, if you treat it more like a radio show, it’s a lot more robust and that’s what yours is. You have this very robust quote podcast that’s really more like a traditional radio show with a lot of elements that breaks and things like that. And so it’s really a radio show rather than a podcast to me

[00:05:02.14] spk_1:
and no, no, no surprise at that because Claire Meyerhoff was creative producer. So you, you coached me along and I had some nodules to copy like I was like the car talk guys and uh, but yeah, you were instrumental and help me put some of those elements in and thinking about it as

[00:05:17.06] spk_2:
radio but you did the work. A lot of work.

[00:05:34.24] spk_1:
Oh, thank you. Let’s bring scott stein in scott, Stein, Brooklyn new york composer, composer of our theme song, which we’re gonna hear in full, of course, Brooklyn new york based pianist, songwriter, arranger, conductor and music director. Scott stein music dot com scott. Welcome to the show.

[00:05:38.24] spk_4:
Thank you. Great to see you again, Tony and Claire. That’s uh we feel like we’re getting the band back together after every 50 shows, we get to do this. It’s the reunion

[00:05:47.55] spk_2:
tour where the snow happening

[00:06:00.44] spk_1:
were the snacks. Where’s the craft services? Yeah, no, absolutely scott. I love your, I still love the song, cheap red wine. Uh, it opens and closes every single show. I’m so glad that mutual lawyer friend of ours jo Becker brought us together.

[00:06:08.44] spk_4:
Yeah. My old roommate, back from, back from both of our bachelor days. Ohio

[00:06:11.79] spk_1:
Ohio Ohio State was it?

[00:06:19.34] spk_4:
Uh, I went to Ohio State. He was one of my roommates here in new york. Ah, okay. So

[00:06:21.64] spk_1:
because you’re originally an Ohio

[00:06:22.84] spk_4:
guy, right? I am. I’m originally from Akron Ohio and a graduate of the Ohio State University. Good bucks.

[00:06:30.64] spk_2:
I did not know that all those years. You’re from Akron. It’s near Toledo, right. Akron

[00:06:47.84] spk_4:
actually opposite part of the state. So yeah, well Toledo’s northwestern Ohio’s north. Excuse me. Akron is northeast is close to Cleveland. Oh, okay. You know, it’s okay. Most people mix up Akron and Dayton.

[00:06:52.04] spk_2:
Yes. Well Jaden’s in the south more towards like Louisville.

[00:06:55.21] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s called Cincinnati. The south,

[00:06:58.24] spk_2:
right, Cincinnati

[00:07:00.07] spk_1:
and scott. You just moved? You just did an intra Brooklyn

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
move? I did. I just up the block same street about maybe four blocks north. Uh, yeah, so we moved in on friday. So it’s, it is a wonder that there are not more boxes on either side of me right now. There are some there just out of there, just out of picture right now. So

[00:07:23.82] spk_1:
is non profit radio your first gig since in the new apartment.

[00:07:47.14] spk_4:
Uh, well I guess it’s the first gig in the apartment. I had a gig just outside of the apartment yesterday and another one the day before that. So actually I moved at a rather busy work time, which was a little bit of a balancing act. All right, but we’re with you and then I’m going to be hitting the studio on Tuesday, starting in a new record. Our first session is Tuesday, so because that wasn’t busy enough, I thought I would squeeze in a problem into that because planning is something I am clearly very good at.

[00:08:02.84] spk_2:
Right? And then, and then you took on that catering job and that was really just the end of it all,

[00:08:08.01] spk_4:
you know?

[00:08:10.64] spk_0:
Uh,

[00:08:11.83] spk_4:
that’s, you know,

[00:08:12.79] spk_1:
he’s been doing some political consulting to. Right. Right. So we’re your inaugural gig in your new apartment. That’s what I, I like. I like being inaugural for anything. I find something

[00:08:40.14] spk_4:
inaugural. Yeah. Do I have because I’m not teaching over the summer, which is something I was doing over zoom the whole year um, and uh, and even ransom choir rehearsals over zoom when we’re during the pandemic before we could meet up in person and uh, so, but that’s been off for the last few weeks, last month or so, so yes, so this is the first zoom session in the new apartments.

[00:08:47.88] spk_1:
Outstanding. Very, a milestone to milestone. You’ll always treasure

[00:08:51.54] spk_4:
naturally. Indeed,

[00:08:52.81] spk_1:
it’s good. It’s really good to have you back with the uh, on the anniversary show, on the

[00:09:04.14] spk_4:
11th anniversary. Always, always happy to reconnect and like as they get the band back together. So great! All right,

[00:09:07.94] spk_1:
Claire

[00:09:14.24] spk_2:
tony I have something very important I want to talk about, We’re going to have the very first Tony awards.

[00:09:18.31] spk_0:
Now

[00:10:14.44] spk_2:
you might be thinking listeners that the Tony awards are all about broadway, but they’re not. They’re about guests from tony-martignetti non profit radio Those are the real Tony awards and today we’re going to pepper them throughout our show. So I’d like to give out the very first tony award and you know, an award requires an actual award. And I thought I’d let you guys choose. So should the award be a troll? Blue haired troll? All right. A fossil from Hack alito’s canyon in Coalinga California. These are fossil. Um sand dollars. Mhm. A nun. My friend Marianne gave me because we have a joke about nuns who run and this is a nun who runs or one of my mother’s antique little things that I saw and I thought, well that looks like an award. So what should we cheers guys troll fossil. None falls. That looks like an

[00:10:18.89] spk_4:
award. Well, when you mentioned none to broadway shows came to mind when with the sound of music and the other was sister act. So that gets my vote.

[00:11:24.14] spk_2:
All right, that’s going to be the award and not that everybody’s going to see it, but we’re not going to keep talking about. It’s a little it’s a little new guys will see it. We’ll just say it’s a little nun doll. It’s a little none. It runs you go like that. It runs across the counter. It’s like my little thing and Marianne, we joke about it a lot. Okay, so for the very first Tony award given out the award for very first guest goes to Yes, we’ll just do a little music under music. Music, Music, Music, dramatic, dramatic, tony Award. Music. Hi. And the award for very first guest goes to Steve Imparato Steve. Here’s your reward. Steve’s not here. I’ll accept in his in his accidents. So he was the very first guest on Tony-Martignetti non profit radio on July 23, 2010. So Tony how do you recall steve’s appearance on the show?

[00:11:40.94] spk_1:
Uh Well it was at that time it was the tony-martignetti show. Uh It was actually, I I hesitate to correct my esteemed creative producer. It was July 16. You’re you’re confused,

[00:11:42.12] spk_2:
You gave your 7 23. Okay, never mind

[00:11:45.97] spk_1:
You were July 23, I just

[00:11:48.45] spk_2:
Saw this date. Okay, okay, July 2013

[00:12:02.64] spk_1:
By Claire Meyerhoff came on the show on July 23 a week later, after Steve the show was changed, it was no longer the tony-martignetti show because you claire explained to me that nobody knows what the hell tony-martignetti show

[00:12:06.74] spk_2:
is right, is about is it about cooking, Is it about trolls? Like what is it about? So I thought I said to him tony you just have to have the word non profit in there somewhere. Just shove the word non profit into your, into your title,

[00:12:38.54] spk_1:
has to have it shoved in tony-martignetti and nonprofit radio And so by the second week of of the show which was now newly named so you were on July 23, 2016 you were on the first tony-martignetti non profit radio Claremore off talking about uh storytelling

[00:12:57.24] spk_2:
Amazing. So that was 10, 11, almost 11 years, 11, it is 11 years ago, it is 11, well on the 23rd it’ll be 11 years. I expect a nice gift. I want a Bugatti and a villa on lake como. Thank you. I will take nothing less.

[00:12:59.22] spk_1:
Very italian themed. Okay, well we’ll give you is a nun, we have a doll. None for you

[00:13:04.10] spk_2:
know I already have that for mary.

[00:13:06.01] spk_1:
We won’t take yours away. How about that?

[00:13:09.19] spk_2:
Okay, I’ll get another one. She’ll have a little friend. I’ll give it to Marion.

[00:13:13.24] spk_1:
But that was the very first show and you were on the very second show.

[00:13:26.64] spk_2:
I was all right. So we have another award to give out scott a little music for atmosphere. Thank you. And the second Tony award goes to the Tony award for longest distance guest. That’s the guest who phoned in from the furthest away it is. Let’s open the envelope. Matt Barnett from Sydney Australia on november 30th 2020 matt, here’s your award tony Tell us about matt

[00:13:56.14] spk_1:
matt Barnett is the papa bear. He calls himself papa bear of his company, which is Bond Euro and they do personalized videos. So he’s the ceo of bonds Euro, but his title is papa bear. And uh yeah, he zoomed with me from Sydney Australia as you said,

[00:14:05.14] spk_2:
That’s fabulous with a big time difference as well. So he had to accommodate that.

[00:14:20.34] spk_1:
Uh, we, we both, yeah, I think I was up a little early and he was up a little late. Uh, one of the other, I think I was like nine o’clock and maybe he was seven or eight in the morning the next day. Something like that. Some, something like that.

[00:14:29.64] spk_2:
Yeah, wow, that’s, that’s awesome. All right. We have, we have another Tony award and it is for the guest who came closest to having a heart attack in the studio. And that award goes to Dennis Miller, tony Tell us about Dennis

[00:15:06.34] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis ran a long way from, from, I think the nearest spot that a cab could drop him off. This was the very first studio on West 72nd Street and he was stuck in us. Uh he was stuck in traffic and he uh it wasn’t, I’m pretty sure it was not the subway, he was stuck in traffic, he told the cabbie he would just bail out and uh he hooked it a couple of blocks and

[00:15:09.22] spk_2:
uh

[00:15:13.14] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis is not spelt, so he was, he was a little red, he was a little red cheeked and heavy breathing and then you had to come up the stairs, one story.

[00:15:20.34] spk_2:
I remember

[00:15:27.44] spk_1:
one flight of stairs to add a little more exercise to his couple block run. Um so I we did the best SAm and I remember SAm the

[00:15:31.48] spk_2:
producer. Yes, I know SAm. Well,

[00:15:37.24] spk_1:
uh we did the best to calm him down and uh I did a little improv and then we brought him in and he was fine. Dennis was fine and he was brilliant.

[00:15:41.79] spk_2:
And so who is Dennis Miller? What does he do? And why was he a nonprofit radio

[00:15:45.68] spk_1:
Dennis Miller is a frequent writer about board’s approval board, very important, a strategic planning with your board retreat,

[00:15:56.04] spk_2:
yep,

[00:15:56.74] spk_1:
we were talking about, we have been talking about the board and fundraising, but

[00:16:01.94] spk_2:
it was right, Yes, that’s that’s that’s enough to give you a heart attack right there, trying to get your board to do some fundraising. Very

[00:16:11.64] spk_1:
good claire, that’s Dennis Miller,

[00:16:28.94] spk_2:
that’s Dennis Miller. Okay. And we have a we have a final in this little segment, this is the final tony award for, for this, this little segment of our show and it goes to the Tony Award, goes to the weirdest guest and the weirdest guest is Sandor Katz, tony I’ll let you explain our weirdest guests, Sand or cats and the lessons you’ve learned.

[00:17:18.34] spk_1:
Yes, you learned a lesson. I should have consulted you first or you know, maybe I did and you advised me against it and I, uh stupidly you can’t be ignored your advice. I don’t remember what sequence it was, but it was my, it was my original idea. I’m not, I’m not putting that on you. I thought, well it’s a podcast for nonprofit folks, but maybe, you know, folks and nonprofits have multidimensional lives, so maybe I can capture some of the, some of that breath in, in the non profit radio podcast. And I invited someone to come on and talk about fermentation implementation. Uh, yeah, as you said, his name was Sandor Katz, but he, he called himself Sander crowd because sauerkraut is a

[00:17:20.84] spk_2:
popular, uh, that’s true, it is,

[00:17:23.92] spk_1:
This was August 2nd of 2013,

[00:18:00.44] spk_2:
so three years in, you decided let’s let’s shake it up a little bit. Let’s have some fermenting topics now. I remember that because I think you had a wine person on one time, like you’ve done a couple of them where you thought, well let’s do like some other stuff. And I said, well tony it’s, it’s better to just stick like stay with the message. Like stay with what the show is about like on car talk. They don’t like have a nonprofit segment on car talk. They talk about cars unless it’s like something about like, you know, cars with nonprofits. Like if like if Sandor Katz had run like the, you know, the fermentation 501 C3, right? The nonprofit groups supporting um fermentation?

[00:18:05.34] spk_1:
Yes, that would have been ideal. That would have been that he had no connection to night connection to non profit He was the furthest thing I could find from nonprofits and

[00:18:13.33] spk_2:
he talked a long time and tony just we’re both in the studio and I’m like, I’m giving tony like the stink eye and I’m like, yeah, tony that’s what that’s all about. He’s like, this guy is talking about the pickles and

[00:18:50.54] spk_1:
chocolate, coffee, sauerkraut wine, all these champagne versus wine. So yeah, I learned a lesson. I learned a lot and uh claire you were spot on podcasts are about narrow and deep, you take your narrow niche and you run deep in it and you don’t try to bring in fermentation or uh, or uh wine enthusiasm or anything else. So at

[00:19:08.04] spk_2:
least it was like a really like weird one that we can still talk about years later. It’s, it’s not like the tipping point with something about like a guy who does custom framing or something like that wouldn’t be that funny, but like this guy was all about the fermenting and now we can we can joke about that. But but yes, he got the Tony awards, so we’ll have to send that to him and maybe he will send us a lifetime supply of sauerkraut.

[00:19:14.64] spk_1:
All

[00:19:19.24] spk_2:
right, we’re moving on.

[00:19:37.84] spk_1:
We have someone who just joined us. We will get to your song into the 2nd Scott in a few minutes. Let’s bring in, let’s bring in as soon as he piers. This is Stefan, Stefan. Szabo. Best to Stefan welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:19:44.14] spk_3:
Hey, nice to meet you. Happy to be here.

[00:19:47.94] spk_1:
Thank you. Did I say your name right? I wanna make sure is it sure best to?

[00:19:51.84] spk_3:
Oh perfect, very nice.

[00:19:53.98] spk_1:
It’s

[00:19:54.91] spk_2:
just the way it looks. It’s a beautiful name, Stefan Sebesta.

[00:19:58.84] spk_3:
Thanks

[00:20:00.05] spk_1:
Stephanie is Ceo of one of our sponsors, our newest sponsor, Send In Blue, which is a digital marketing platform, Stefan thanks so much for joining us.

[00:20:11.04] spk_3:
Thanks and congrats on your 550th show your 11 year anniversary.

[00:20:26.44] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m glad you could be with us. Thank you. Um so tell us a little about sending Blue. Want to give you a couple of minutes to uh talk about this digital marketing platform and how sending Blue helps nonprofits.

[00:21:34.64] spk_3:
Sure, happy to do so, so sad. And blue, you know, as we were founded in in 2012, we really have this vision of helping small and medium businesses and many nonprofits are fall into this category to help these kind of business is to be on equal footing with the big players, the amazons of this world and to empower them and enable them to do similar marketing, online marketing activities. So we started with email marketing and then added more and more channels over time. And our really, our our vision is to provide a very easy to use, very affordable tool to small and medium businesses to grow there, to grow their revenue to for nonprofits, you know, um fundraising is very important. So we give a lot of tools that you can use apart from email marketing, you can have a landing page generator facebook as the chat chat about that you can put on your website, Syria. Um, and so we’ve added more and more functionality and it’s, you know, that’s really what what’s in blue stands for.

[00:21:43.44] spk_1:
So like full spectrum enterprise level digital marketing,

[00:21:44.79] spk_3:
but enterprise

[00:21:46.35] spk_1:
enterprise, but enterprise, like enterprise quality

[00:22:12.54] spk_3:
for non profits At at at a price that’s really affordable for for for small businesses. And that’s easy to use where you don’t need to have maybe an 80 team or a dedicated marketing manager. You can, everything is very visual. You can use our drag and drop editor, create planning pages or emails and it’s it’s really easy to to set up campaigns and become successful. And like I said, be on equal footing with these bigger players that have much higher budgets, of course.

[00:22:34.44] spk_1:
Cool. Right. So you get that quality without the enterprise level pricing, That’s exactly right, awesome. So distinguish between some sending blue and some of the bigger names that may or may not be, you know, appropriate, like, you know, constant contact and mail chimp what we’re sending blue, what is sending blue do that? These guys don’t

[00:23:50.64] spk_3:
phenomena. So one thing I mentioned is really, it’s a very comprehensive tool, right? We offer all these different channels that you can combine and make your online marketing extremely powerful With that. Apart from that we, You know, we offer very affordable product. We have very good customer service basically 24/7 and six different languages. So that’s something that nobody, nobody else offers in our industry either. And overall, you know, it’s a lot of features and maybe there are different um preferences for for each customer. But We really targeted white audience. We have over 300,000 paying customers worldwide. Originally the European company and you know, for for one person may be the functionality is more important for the other one that’s a customer service for another one. Maybe it might be the data privacy regulations that we have to follow european, G D P R C C A and so on. So we’re really, really focused on that as well. Um and for for others who might just be, you know, the ease of, of, of using the product. So um it’s different for for each customer basically.

[00:24:26.94] spk_1:
Cool. Alright. Easy to use price for nonprofits. Um and non profit radio listeners get a free month. Yes. And in blue uh free straight out exactly. You go to the listener landing page at send in blue aptly named. That’s easy to remember. Yeah, Stefan. Thanks so much. Real pleasure. And and and thank you. Thank you. And thanks to the team. It’s sending blue for your, your sponsorship of nonprofit radio Thank you so much.

[00:24:35.94] spk_3:
No problem. Thanks.

[00:24:40.11] spk_1:
Thanks so

[00:24:40.78] spk_3:
much.

[00:24:45.04] spk_1:
That’s fine. You got a song for us?

[00:24:48.54] spk_4:
I do. It’s about fermentation

[00:24:50.94] spk_2:
awesome.

[00:24:54.34] spk_4:
That may or may not be true.

[00:24:56.94] spk_1:
All right, you got for

[00:26:08.94] spk_4:
us. I’m gonna play this song off the new record that we’re gonna be doing uh starting tomorrow. Um uh the song is called on my way and it’s about a trip that I took to New Orleans and um I everywhere I went although I you could still kind of see um like remnants of what happened during hurricane Katrina if you look closely enough. And and I had I had been there initially a couple of years after Katrina and hadn’t gone back since uh this this trip was about two years ago and and I was just on one hand I was just taking it in because I love New Orleans, I love just hanging out there. Obviously it’s a great music city. Um But you you kind of scratch under the service and you can see you know some of the scars of what happened. And I thought that was just a really interesting um dichotomy there. So that’s that’s a little bit of what informed this song. So this is this is called on my way. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:29:28.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m on my way. I could still find my way out of the ordinary back into the frame. But it takes some of that comfort and it cast it aside, slip out of the jacket. It’s the ball of the way outside. The wind is at my back to push me through the sorrow way through the storm And the swell as for the destination. It’s too early to tell there in a while in the solace. Ain’t no river a trust ain’t no poetry to this life baby. We only do what we must and I cannot step the time. I can only stand in wonder and I grab a hold of the ball Bowlby older I breathe different and I got a swagger in my stride. I’m walking through the war. There’s the mighty river at my side but new Orleans bears the scars now and it’s shaping in its storm, which is the threat of rain, reminds her of the memories of the storm. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Take all that I am. Take all that I was Yeah. Try to pull myself together the right kind of bus. Take all of my love, take all of my sins. Ain’t no use trying to polish up the mess that I’ve been. But I will be better. I will be better better than before. Uh huh. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Who scott stone?

[00:29:32.44] spk_1:
Thanks scott stein. Wonderful,

[00:29:33.58] spk_2:
thank you, lovely, thank

[00:29:35.34] spk_1:
you. Excellent. And that’s going to be on the new album. Do you know the name of the new album

[00:29:39.37] spk_4:
scott? I don’t just yet, I’ve got some ideas I’m kicking around but it’s uh we’re pretty early in the process right now.

[00:29:50.74] spk_1:
You’re starting recording tomorrow. Indeed, I didn’t know creative process runs.

[00:30:12.04] spk_4:
It depends sometimes, like I’ve got an idea, you know, coming out of the gate. Uh, sometimes I have one, I don’t want to share it right away. Sometimes one record the woman with cheap red wine. I think I came up with the title of that record jukebox. Uh, we were mastering the record, we were all done and I still didn’t have a title. And uh, so it happens when it happens.

[00:30:16.94] spk_1:
Okay, okay, mastering. That’s one of those insider terms. I love

[00:30:19.13] spk_4:
that. That’s the last, it’s the last step of the last thing you do and then it’s done. You

[00:30:30.34] spk_1:
know the lingo, you’re an insider musical insider. I know. All right, Claire.

[00:30:32.54] spk_2:
I think we have more Tony awards to give out. So do we.

[00:30:37.44] spk_0:
I think we do.

[00:31:11.74] spk_2:
I would like to present the Tony Award for 2021 to most newsworthy guests on the Tony-Martignetti nonprofit radio show and the Tony award for most news where the guest goes to Barbara Newhouse, the ceo of A. L. S. The A. L. S Association and the ice bucket challenge competition that was so well known and successful back in the day. And tony nabbed that high profile guest. Yes, yes,

[00:31:51.84] spk_1:
Indeed. That was that was October of 2014, 3, 2014. May recall, uh, if you were working around nonprofits then the, the ice bucket challenge. It was the summer of 2014 and it pretty much wrapped up by labor day of 2014. So early October I got Barbara Newhouse on the show and actually recorded that in the Chronicle of philanthropy office in Washington, D. C. That was a collaboration between non profit radio and the Chronicle of philanthropy. They promoted it and I did too. And I did the interview with Barbara Newhouse.

[00:32:12.74] spk_2:
Really, that’s wonderful. And now I have another award to give out and it’s for Tony’s favorite guests. So the Tony award for favorite guest goes to and it’s a tie Tony’s favorite guests receiving the Tony award are Amy sample Ward and jean to the hockey. I can never say his name. Right. I’m a terrible

[00:32:19.64] spk_0:
host. Yeah, I couldn’t pick just one of

[00:32:20.79] spk_1:
you. Welcome. Welcome. Hey, you are my favorite. Together. You are my favorite. Get

[00:32:26.03] spk_2:
your tony award

[00:32:28.04] spk_0:
or

[00:32:30.31] spk_2:
are you going to Patrol?

[00:32:32.14] spk_5:
I am very happy to share with jean.

[00:32:35.54] spk_7:
Me too, Amy, thank you for the Auto

[00:32:49.44] spk_1:
tony include Absolutely, absolutely. Together. My favorite guest, Uh, Jean, Jean started on nonprofit radio on, on show number seven show number. So

[00:32:57.14] spk_2:
right, that’s right. So he also wins the award for longest running guest jean. He gets to awards 20

[00:32:58.81] spk_7:
10 I think

[00:33:10.94] spk_1:
It was, it was 27 absolutely. It was, it was August 27 of 2010. Exactly right. That was the 7th show we had just started the month before. And Amy joined non profit radio on the 100th show.

[00:33:18.14] spk_5:
Yes, because I remember thinking like there’s all this stuff going on. What what is this show? You know,

[00:33:30.64] spk_1:
I didn’t know I wasn’t sure myself. So that would have been the 100th show would have been July of 2012 and with us ever since. So welcome. Welcome to the anniversary. Welcome

[00:33:36.92] spk_7:
congrats.

[00:34:10.74] spk_1:
Thank you. Thanks very much and you get you’re both gonna stay with us. Right, both of you are gonna stay for the duration. All right. All right. Um Amy, what’s what’s up at and 10 I should have said Amy, sample ward of course are technology and social media contributor naturally, you all know, you all know Amy and jeanne aimee Ceo of N 10 at 10 10 dot org. And AMY is at AMy R S Ward. What’s up in the MERS Ward or the N 10 World? You what’s up there?

[00:34:55.54] spk_5:
We Well, lots of good things. I mean, you know, we’re now in our Fy 22 Every, every year we get to like put stuff behind us, no more of the last 12 months, you know? Um I mean right now we’re getting ready to launch 22 NTC, you know, sessions, emissions folks have been tons of folks already volunteered to be on the committee’s. So doing all of that planning now and getting ready. I think that will be launched or announced to the community in like two weeks. So stand by watch that inbox. Get ready to pencil things into your calendar.

[00:34:57.84] spk_1:
Um Okay. 22 T. C. The nonprofit technology conference. Yeah. Where is that where is that going to be?

[00:35:06.54] spk_5:
I think that’s part of

[00:35:07.62] spk_1:
the is that part of the reveal reveal?

[00:35:11.31] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:35:12.25] spk_5:
Yes. Can

[00:35:13.54] spk_2:
you give us a hint? I

[00:35:22.54] spk_5:
can say all of you are invited and all of you can definitely make it.

[00:35:23.74] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:35:37.34] spk_1:
Okay Jean. Okay we’re waiting up so a couple of weeks we’re gonna hear about 20-80. Okay Jeanne, what’s going out? Gene of course our legal contributor uh Principal of

[00:35:39.05] spk_5:
Jean jean will appreciate the way that I nimbly answered your question,

[00:35:44.94] spk_7:
definitely looking at a legal second career

[00:35:47.88] spk_5:
Amy

[00:36:09.43] spk_1:
Jeanne, our legal contributor. He’s a principal attorney at neo the nonprofit and exempt organization law group in san Francisco Neo law group dot com. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog, which everyone should be subscribing to. It’s Simple Gene. It breaks things down. That’s why he’s our legal contributor. No, no.

[00:36:14.58] spk_5:
We email the intent board with links to jeans blog. Anytime they ask us a question, we don’t need to answer this. Gene already answered this. Here’s the answer. Go read this blog post jean. Can I ask you a question and take over the show.

[00:36:27.13] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:37:43.53] spk_5:
So we, because Anton puts on a big conference, um, we are connected to lots of other event planners and other organizations, you know, that have the big enough events where you’re like conventions and our hotel contracts, all these different pieces, you know, and really until a month or so ago, if you had contracts, it was, it was scary and stressful, but you were going to get out of them because you were legally not allowed to have events, you know? But now Covid’s over or something and like no more restrictions. So organizations that had contracts, you know, maybe for this summer and thought, okay, well we don’t have to worry. Like obviously we can’t have events like that can be over. Will plan something else are now stuck in this like, oh, I guess we are going to be beholden to these legal contracts that have massive fines because you know, the governor of whatever state is no longer barred events of, of a certain size or something, you know, Are you seeing, are you seeing folks trying to navigate that or did they somehow successfully negotiate out and we haven’t heard from them or what are you seeing in that world?

[00:38:40.02] spk_7:
So in anticipation of Tony’s question to me about what was going on, that’s a lot of what’s going on right now. Organizations trying to figure out post covid kind of post covid or wherever we happen to be now, how do we proceed? And yeah, having provision in the contract not to sell lawyers services, but right now is a time before you enter into a big contract for an event. You want to make sure you’ve got language in there that allocates risk and protects you. So to the extent you can and most contracts are not like rental card contracts where you have to agree to whatever they put in, most of them can be negotiated, that’s something to think of. And so tony great summer a lot of work. A lot of changes going on here. I hope everything’s been going well with you two.

[00:38:45.22] spk_1:
Oh absolutely. Um and Amy is going to get a bill from you for a legal consultation and I get a 30% cut of that because it’s cutting into non profit radio I like I like how she asked like how Amy asked jean, can I ask you a question and take over the show? She didn’t ask jean, ask the host,

[00:39:01.32] spk_2:
can I ask a question? Let’s keep

[00:39:27.02] spk_1:
advice for intend for free. Can I do that? I shouldn’t ask. All right. Uh no, we’re glad to help. We’re here to help nonprofits. We’re here to help nonprofits of course. And I want to introduce both of you to Scott. Stein, who you’ve not met. Scott is the composer of cheap red wine, which is our theme song that you hear at the intro and outro of every single, every single day.

[00:39:27.54] spk_5:
Didn’t we meet last july in this same

[00:39:30.32] spk_0:
setup

[00:39:36.52] spk_4:
I was gonna say Yeah, I think we did meet over zoom about a year ago.

[00:39:37.66] spk_1:
Okay, it would have been a year ago. Alright, well, back

[00:39:43.50] spk_7:
and Scott’s composition is incredible. So, the theme song,

[00:39:49.82] spk_1:
we all love cheap red wine. Absolutely. We’re going to hear it. We’re gonna hear it later on Scott. You’ve got another song for us right now though. Yeah,

[00:41:00.41] spk_4:
yeah, absolutely. I’ll do it off the forthcoming new record. Actually. I I think I did this one on your show, probably the lesson. We did it in person. I’m gonna do it again because we’re about to go record it. Um But I wrote it the morning of the show. I’d had this chorus kicking around in my head for several months. And remember I that morning I had gone, I dropped my my son off at daycare, who’s now too. So we probably about six months old at that point. And um after I got home, I had about maybe, 2030 minutes before I had to leave to come meet with you and I was like, go I just had my second cup of coffee. It kicked in. One of my favorite songwriters, dan Wilson is fond of saying that human songwriters are machines, you input espresso and songs come out. So, and that’s kind of what happened. So I’m paraphrasing, he said it more eloquently than I did. Alright. But anyway, so this is uh, so the two that was debuted on your show a couple years ago, I’m gonna rip res it here. I remember,

[00:41:12.75] spk_1:
I remember you telling that story,

[00:41:25.01] spk_4:
please. Yeah, it was that morning and I just like there there it was, oh, that’s what that song is supposed to be. So here it is. Uh, this is called, It’s a Good Life. Oh, I had to remember what key it was in. All right. Here we go.

[00:45:37.39] spk_0:
Uh huh. Yeah, I got some inside information. Someone slipped me a copy of the master plan. My sources are were reliable with the rental language. I don’t understand. You know, I’ve always been a cynic since the day. I can remember ways skipping past silver lightings. Always looking for the snow in september. But baby baby baby is a good high Oh baby baby. It’s a good hi. No matter who you are, you can’t see the nearest store. Baby baby. It’s a good I some days you’re offer busy. Some days you can’t get a damn thing. You’ve done. Some days you get the car keys. Some days it’s the keys. The thing that giants that you love lying. Very good reasons. But baby baby baby. It’s a good uh Oh, it’s a good lot. No matter how you sing the song, there’s always someone singing along baby baby, it’s good, allow once was up getting her what? Baby, baby, baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good I don’t, you stick to what you know, let me fly watching. Oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Yeah.

[00:45:54.59] spk_1:
Who scott stein thanks, I love that. Of course. I love the song debuted on nonprofit radio a couple of years ago. World world premiere was

[00:45:56.40] spk_4:
non profit here. It was an hour long, it was an hour old, that newborn.

[00:46:21.28] spk_1:
Thank you. Beautiful scott. Thank you scott stein scott stein music dot com. We had a couple of folks, uh, we had a couple of folks join us, another sponsor of nonprofit radio from turn to communications. Peter Pan a pento and scott. Westcott, both partners. That turn to Peter scott Welcome.

[00:46:24.68] spk_6:
Great to be here. And we, we came together even though we worked six hours apart. This was such a big occasion for us. I drove up to Erie pennsylvania to be here. So,

[00:46:34.78] spk_1:
uh, well and Scott living in here. He knows what a sacrifice that was.

[00:46:38.97] spk_8:
Yeah, it’s serious, but it’s not in the winner. So I mean, it’s a little bit, Yeah.

[00:46:57.68] spk_1:
Okay, Welcome. Welcome to the, to the anniversary show. Peter Scott for having us and, and thank you for your sponsorship as well. Grateful, grateful for that. Thank you. Turn to communications Media pr For, for nonprofits. Tell us tell us a little more detail than I’m able to go into in my 32nd sponsored messages.

[00:47:36.48] spk_6:
Sure. So, um, Scott and I started turn to communications about four years ago and we’ve been working, um, for quite a while building on our background as journalists and folks who’ve worked in and around the sector for a number of years, um, to help nonprofits um, tell their stories more effectively in the media and also be much, um, much clearer and more direct with reaching their target audiences through their content. So we work with quite a few community foundations, a number of national and local nonprofits and have really enjoyed, uh, helping nonprofits raise awareness about their work, um, dr action and and get results on some of their advocacy campaigns. And in some cases, raise some more money to

[00:48:12.77] spk_1:
scott. I’m often talking about the relationships that you can help folks build with media outlets. And as I’m doing the sponsor messages. Um, so, you know, for the weekly shows, talk about a little about the value of those relationships, how you build those relationships with media when when you’re not looking to be quoted or, or be a source.

[00:49:00.87] spk_8:
Yeah, so I think it’s, you know, there’s some legwork there and it’s a matter of, you know, first of all understanding what the journalists are looking for, what they need, and then voting that relationship over time, uh, being as useful as possible to them, you know, because they’re obviously swamped these days. I mean, they get hundreds of emails a day, you know, everyone pitching a story. So we really do focus on that relationship, you know, getting, you know, journalists what they’re working on what their beat is. Um, so, hey, we can be top of mind for them, you know, when they are doing a story and be just being able to give them information and get them sources in in the fastest way possible. So, uh, that ended up being a beneficial

[00:49:23.27] spk_6:
relationship for everybody, really does. And I think, you know, so much of our approach to media relations is to almost treat, um, not just our clients as clients, but the journalists themselves as clients. And in some cases finding ways to to be support to them, um, when it doesn’t necessarily benefit the organizations we work with, but building trust with them, making sure if if we can’t get them an answer or get them the people they need through our network, um, reaching out and connecting them with people who we might not be working with so that we can, you know, provide them with value and build

[00:49:51.87] spk_1:
trust. And isn’t that just basic, that’s just basic relationship building in any in any in any network or bunch of friends, you know, you get to know each other and you help each other when when someone needs help you. And there’s and there’s no, you know, there’s no benefit for you. You don’t even think about

[00:49:56.12] spk_8:
that journalists or human beings.

[00:49:59.40] spk_1:
I’ve heard, I’ve heard rumors to that effect. Yes.

[00:50:07.86] spk_2:
Well as a journalist, as a, as a, as a working longtime journalist, we are human. Absolutely. But then we leave and work for nonprofits and uh,

[00:50:14.08] spk_1:
you know,

[00:50:14.32] spk_8:
I think you’re right Tony, I mean, basically the same same fundamentals

[00:50:40.66] spk_1:
and you both are journalists. So you’ve gotten, you’ve been on the receiving end of thousands of pitches, tens of thousands through the years. Peter used to be at the Chronicle of philanthropy. So you have a special niche within nonprofits. Um, so the two of you together, you know, it’s a, it’s an ideal relationship. And uh, and I’m, I’m pleased to say tell folks that, that the plane giving accelerator that I have is a, is a, is a client of turn two.

[00:51:06.96] spk_6:
That’s right. And uh, yeah, so tony Uh, you know, we, we often tell the story on your anniversary shows about how, um, you came into the Chronicle office back when I was working there with the idea for tony-martignetti non profit radio And we actually did a kind of a parallel podcast through the Chronicle for a number of years to so tony was a podcasting pioneer, which

[00:51:52.86] spk_1:
thank you maybe maybe just an early adopter, an early adopter, maybe you’re being degenerate, but thank you, thank you. Yeah. And you can find that old collaboration that I did with the, uh, with, with the Chronicle of philanthropy. It’s called fundraising fundamentals. It ran about four or 5 years, Much shorter, like 12, 10, 12, 15 minutes was the longest episode we ever did. And but it’s still out, it’s still on apple podcasts and I don’t know about other sites, but folks mentioned it to me occasionally fundraising fundamentals and that was peter and I collaborated on that, but that created that so long running relationship. Thanks thanks for and again, thanks for your sponsorship. Turn to thank you

[00:51:58.36] spk_6:
so thrilled to thrilled to have the partnership and you have such a great audience in such great guess. We’re really thrilled to be associated with it.

[00:52:21.55] spk_1:
Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks to both of you. Oh my pleasure. Um you’re welcome to hang out if you like guys, we’re uh we’re gonna give out some more Tony awards. Claire has some more Tony awards and I should have said uh you all are stuck with a lackluster host, you know that you know that by now I should have said that uh these are the authentic tony awards, those imposter awards on broadway, their name for their name for someone named Antoinette Perry, she’s not, her name isn’t even tony it’s T. O. And I Internet is T. O. And I. But they change it to T. O. N. Y. Awards. I don’t know why they made it a masculine when it was named for a woman. Why did they do that? It’s all about the imposters, imposters

[00:52:50.74] spk_2:
imposters. So they give these awards for what were you know, writing a whole broadway show and performing it on a stage in front of thousands of people and creating joy for millions. Got really come on that all about

[00:53:06.75] spk_1:
the real awards are right. Really? What’s

[00:53:08.11] spk_4:
got its cake? It’s not it’s no work at all

[00:53:11.12] spk_1:
knew scott would take offense at that. Um there’s yeah, no, this is the real these are the real Tony awards right here, Claire you have you have a couple of

[00:53:20.57] spk_2:
couple. We have, we have a couple more awards. Not too many, but the next Tony award. And let me get my

[00:53:28.85] spk_0:
or award the nun the

[00:53:30.29] spk_2:
Tony award for most famous guest on tony-martignetti non profit radio goes to dan Pallotta. tony Tell us about dan Pallotta.

[00:54:10.84] spk_1:
That was April 3, 2015 uh he had a famous or infamous depending on your perspective. Ted Talk called the way something like the way we think about charities or the way we look at charities is all wrong and it was provocative and he got a lot of fame for that he had or infamy again uh when you look at it. Um so millions of views widely, widely um quoted and interviewed Peter you may know did you? I’m sure the Chronicle certainly covered dan Pallotta and his ted talk.

[00:54:19.44] spk_6:
Yes, yes, it got a lot of attention around that time. I was still at the Chronicle back then and you know, I interviewed dan a few times and and he wrote quite a bit of he wrote some provocative op ed pieces back in the day to certainly a big name in the field, although not as much so now. I don’t think

[00:54:47.94] spk_5:
he even was a keynote at the end. You see Peter, do you remember what year that was? It was before I was Ceo, So it so it was not

[00:54:48.82] spk_2:
2013.

[00:54:53.34] spk_5:
It had to have been before 20 12 2011.

[00:54:55.64] spk_6:
It was really yes. Yes. But

[00:55:01.24] spk_5:
I mean his keynote was the same, you know,

[00:55:02.84] spk_0:
topic. Yes, yes.

[00:55:05.74] spk_7:
We didn’t show Tony responding to one of Dan’s offense or his TED Talk in 2013 as well. So we talked about it as

[00:55:13.69] spk_1:
well. That’s right. We did a little postmortem about the issues that he raised. Exactly jean. Thank you.

[00:55:27.54] spk_2:
Interesting. And we have another Tony award that goes to the and I’m going to lower my voice. Softest spoken, famous guest. So the softest spoken famous guest award, Tony award goes to not dan Pallotta, it goes to Craig Newmark, the founder of craigslist, tony Tell us more,

[00:56:07.93] spk_1:
Craig. Newmark is terrific. You know, he founded Craig’s, you have to say Craig Newmark, the founder of Craigslist because nobody knows it because he’s so modest, you know, uh he didn’t turn craigslist into a billion dollar platform uh like so many tech entrepreneurs do. He resisted that. And so, you know, he we don’t know his name the way we know other tech entrepreneurs who can remain unnamed because we all know who they are, Right? So you have to say

[00:56:08.96] spk_5:
being sued by the federal government or what they’ve done with their social media platforms.

[00:56:43.43] spk_1:
Yes. Being sued by the former guy, the former president as well. So Craig Newmark is the founder of craigslist. He resisted the temptation to turn it into a billion dollar platform. He kept it free or very, very low cost and and craigslist exploded for that. And that just exemplifies his character is so you know, he’s modest, he’s soft spoken. Uh and so that’s why he’s got to be non profit radios, most softest spoken famous guests.

[00:56:54.63] spk_2:
And we have one final Tony Award. It’s a very important one. Yeah. And the Tony award for best original score. The Tony award goes to scott stein for a cheap red wine.

[00:57:01.48] spk_0:
Wait till I

[00:57:05.88] spk_4:
have to play underscoring for that

[00:57:07.90] spk_2:
for your own award. Yes, you got to do it all. You’re the only music I hear

[00:57:12.55] spk_4:
stuck. I’m stuck in the orchestra pit, even when I’m getting

[00:57:20.13] spk_2:
congratulations scott. Absolutely. Now you can say now you can say Tony award winning composer scott. Stein

[00:57:26.74] spk_0:
really

[00:57:28.64] spk_2:
with a

[00:57:29.03] spk_5:
little after a big

[00:57:31.25] spk_2:
let’s ask Gina, big asterisk

[00:57:34.67] spk_1:
and, and, and, and note, put it at the end. Not, not the footnote, it’s easier to meet, put it at the end.

[00:57:41.33] spk_4:
Uh, tony-martignetti I’m a big baseball fan. So any award that comes with an asterisk, you know, like,

[00:57:46.83] spk_1:
all

[00:57:47.91] spk_4:
right. Like all the batting titles from like

[00:57:49.84] spk_2:
Pete Rose or

[00:57:51.19] spk_4:
barry bonds is anyway, but thank you.

[00:58:05.72] spk_1:
Absolutely. I love cheap red wine. It’s been our theme song listeners have heard it at the beginning and the end of every single show for many years, many years since we got brought together by a lawyer friend, I mentioned,

[00:58:19.82] spk_4:
uh, josh, Good name of mine. Exactly, joseph, but his name is, joseph goes by josh. But so thank you josh. If you’re I hope you’re out there listening to this right now, so cool.

[00:58:51.32] spk_1:
Thank you josh. Indeed. And I want to thank everybody it’s time for. Thanks Claire Meyerhoff, thank you for co hosting. Thank you for being non profit radios creative producer. You’ll find Claire on linkedin and the company is the planned giving agency PG agency dot com scott Stein. Love it scott. Thank you. Thank you so much. Every anniversary show, I always look forward to it. Thank you very much. You’ll find scott at scott stein music dot com and a new album coming shortly. The recording starts tomorrow, so we don’t really

[00:59:00.52] spk_4:
know. But fall, fall, maybe winter. We’ll see. We’ll see how long this takes

[00:59:43.12] spk_1:
scott stein music dot com. We’ll give you the latest jean takagi principle of neo law group uh the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law group. Neo law group dot com edits that nonprofit law blog at nonprofit law blog dot com. So many aptly named to see everybody took my aptly named host, uh not private law blog dot com. You need to be following that. That’s uh, you know, if you’re not, it’s your life, I can’t help you. Uh you need to. And he’s at G Attack AMy sample award With us since the 100th show ceo of intent and our technology and social media contributor and 10 dot org. And at AMY R. S Ward. I know AMY has to go to a meeting, so thank you, Amy. Thanks for being with us.

[00:59:52.69] spk_5:
Yeah, Thanks everybody. Congratulations, tony

[00:59:56.17] spk_1:
Thank you, Amy. Thanks

[00:59:57.40] spk_5:
congratulations. All the tony winners.

[01:00:05.41] spk_1:
All the tony All the winners. All your fellow award winners. Yes, go tell your staff you won an award. You want to tell

[01:00:07.59] spk_2:
everyone

[01:00:12.71] spk_1:
tony All right. And peter pan Pento scott. Westcott, thank you again for your sponsorship. Uh turn to communications that turn hyphen two dot C. O. And so thank you gentlemen,

[01:00:25.81] spk_6:
thanks so much for giving us a little time. This is

[01:00:27.84] spk_8:
great. We will strive for a Tony award in the future.

[01:00:41.01] spk_1:
Stay. You can the longest running sponsor. If you if you hang in there scott stein, you know you gotta take us out with cheap red wine. All right. Mhm.

[01:05:09.29] spk_0:
Uh huh. Mm Uh huh. I think I just want you you see your romantic investment to build what I’m looking for answers up on a tv screen. We can’t agree on nothing. We had till the ropes from my down. Yeah, we’re disappointed each other not to be baby and just love that we found you know, you used to find me charming. Gonna care figure out how you see you thought I was handsome. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling from my punch lines. As long as your time will allow. God, I reckon promises if I let you read a wine and how wear diamonds and they’re tired of the clothing that way. Yeah. Love to put over for the good stuff and you’re too easily to stretch the tooth care. Well, I ain’t got too many options so I’m gonna do the best that I can. Well maybe you’ll have some competition a day when I’m a wealthy man. You know, you used to ferment your I’m gonna care figure out how you see if you thought it was him. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling more. But as long as your time will allow because I’ve got her any promises about ideology, their wine and thou oh yeah, maybe let’s raise our glasses. Take a dream to better days. The other people can kiss our asses, but in life he said, and I ain’t get across the heavens. The woman flashed victory sides because we’re perfect for each other as long as well. Nobody else in mind. Oh yeah. You know, you used to care, figure out how can you say? Never mind. Don’t matter now. So keep falling from a problem in my life, jeanne red or whatever. Mm Next week on nonprofit radio I’m just gonna have to trust me. I was focused on the fire and so I don’t know what’s coming up, but I promise you it will not be the fermentation. She can you missed any part of this week’s show I’ve been finding at tony-martignetti dot com responded by turn to communication. You are currently on profits. Your story is their mission terran hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue and only all in one digital marketing

[01:05:11.59] spk_2:
pact. Powering

[01:05:12.73] spk_1:
nonprofits to grow.

[01:05:44.79] spk_0:
tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant going through a creative producer is the wonderful Claire Meyerhoff show. Social media is by students Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy And this music is by Scott Steiner. Thank you for that after making money you with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be bobby.

Nonprofit Radio for June 28, 2021: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns for a valuable, fun conversation that starts with the #ShowTheSalary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor, and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:04.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of para Nicaea if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Amy sample Ward returns for a valuable fund conversation that starts with the show the salary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 on tony state too. Let’s rejoice, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, let’s get started, shall we, what do you say here is center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Amy sample ward. You know her, you know who she is, she’s our technology and social media contributor and she’s the Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at a me sample ward dot org and at AMy R. S Ward, Welcome back amy,

[00:02:05.44] spk_0:
it’s been so long.

[00:02:15.34] spk_1:
I know it’s been several months. I didn’t even look back. It’s been too long, but let’s not, let’s not dwell on that. We’ll get, it’s my job to fix it.

[00:02:16.81] spk_0:
So what is time anyway? You

[00:02:19.37] spk_1:
know? Oh, that’s an existential question that we don’t have the time to answer what time is. So, um, you’re well in Oregon. Yes.

[00:03:00.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Doing pretty well hot. We’re hot in Oregon. We’ve got, we’ve got a hot hot keep wave and a hot summer ahead of us, but otherwise doing okay. And you know, I think like a lot of parts of the country, the kind of atmosphere feels like it’s lifting a little bit as, as cities kind of open up more because because it is summer, even if it’s super hot, it’s better to be outside and see other people, You know, I think after a long hard winter, people really just be inside

[00:03:08.12] spk_1:
Last summer, largely the same. Yeah, at least if you were doing the right thing. So yes, it beats the hell out of summer, 2020,

[00:03:15.10] spk_0:
right? Yeah.

[00:03:17.44] spk_1:
Although I’m sorry that climate change has contributed to bad temperatures in Oregon and

[00:03:22.55] spk_0:
yeah, yeah, we’ve already, it’s already fire season here and fire

[00:03:27.78] spk_1:
season is all the year now. Now California just doesn’t even have a fire season anymore. They just have fire fire

[00:04:40.64] spk_0:
thinking about, you know, how many And and 10 has community members all over the us Canada Europe all around the world. Um, and so it’s something we’re always thinking about is, you know, what’s going on and for somebody that might open an email or show up to a court. So being one of our cohort programs where we’re really kind of expecting a lot of you over an extended period of time and, you know, there’s folks in so many different geography, so many different identities, so many different kind of compounding factors where it just might not be a day that you can join of course, you know, and we have done a lot of work, kind of, all of all of 2020 started in 2019 and launched this calendar year with a number of changes to our programs so that people were better able to say, yeah, this isn’t the day that I can join us and that they weren’t kind of like slowly slipping behind or slipping out of any of our programs, that the system was already built for them to be like, yeah, not today. You know, uh again,

[00:05:15.54] spk_1:
we’re gonna talk about that to me that falls under the rubric of tech equity. We’re gonna we’re gonna talk about that. Let’s start with the something I know is on your mind. The show the salary campaign. There was it was a critical piece In the chronicle of philanthropy. Just yesterday, we’re recording on June 23 yesterday. There was a piece by Vincent Robinson, critical of show the salary campaign. Let’s acquaint folks with what show the salary is

[00:06:21.64] spk_0:
for sure. So I think show the salary like hashtag no spaces show the salary is a campaign, but it is not the only movement for there are many, many folks, many different hashtags, many different appeals to the sector at large, whether that’s foundation jobs or nonprofit jobs, whoever to include the salary, whether that’s a hard and fast number or that’s a range in every job hosting from Ceo to to any other position really because of the number of dynamics that come when you don’t show that salary and the privilege that it really wraps itself around, um that it’s not creating an equitable opportunity or access point for all different kinds of folks to apply for that job. And show the show salary is one of these campaigns and efforts to encourage folks whether by asking nicely or shaming whichever direction works to get people to do it

[00:07:41.14] spk_1:
all right. And some of the some of the reasons that showing the salary is important are I know that it gives an advantage to folks who negotiate salary better, which is typically white men. They are more confident in their negotiations. They have better outcomes when they attempt to negotiate. If not even better outcomes, they at least get get a better reaction when they attempt to negotiate. So it gives advantage to the white privileged. Um It’s um it’s disadvantageous in that you might be, I mean this this applies to everybody. You you might spend your time applying for a job that’s beneath your salary requirement. We all got to cover. We all got to cover a monthly nut. And if your salary isn’t gonna do it, you gotta go through a a laborious process to find that out. Maybe a couple of interviews, several hours your research time, you’re spiffing up your resume time, your credentials. So why should I hide it from anybody? Um on the positive side, he promotes transparency and you’d like to hire people who want to work for transparent organizations and people want to work for transparent organization? What am what am I what am I leaving out of the why the advantages, the reasons for showing the salary?

[00:08:32.14] spk_0:
I mean, I think all of those are right. And also all of those are kind of like doorways into an entire, you know, grouping of arguments that are related to them, right? And I think it intend we really um combined when we’re trying to mask or compelled or encourage or convince other organizations to include salaries to us that means compensation and generally make clear what your benefits really are. Don’t say generous benefits because to your point, if someone is um has chronic illness and they know that health care is going to be a really important part of the benefits they get and all that you’ve said is generous benefits. They don’t know how to navigate if that’s going to be worth their time competitive

[00:08:54.34] spk_1:
Really. You know, when you think about these things critically, which, you know, it’s, it’s just uh you know, for me at 59 years old, it’s what I grew up with commensurate salary, salary commenced with the experience and generous benefits. No, but if you do think about that well, it really communicates nothing generous, generous by whose standards commensurate by what type of experience

[00:08:57.34] spk_0:
and with the arbiter of that. Right?

[00:08:59.53] spk_1:
Well who is it? Yeah, who is? Right.

[00:10:24.74] spk_0:
Yeah. I think especially as uh folks are starting to maybe in a token izing way, look to increase the number of black indigenous staff of color, um, L G B T Q I plus like all different, you know, quote unquote diverse metrics for their staff. Those folks want to know that they are going to be evaluated by something they opted into, Right? So seeing something like, oh, it’s commensurate with experience. Well, if you are excited to hire me because I also speak spanish, but you’re not, you’re not giving me a salary because of that, then that’s probably not a great place, right? Like all of those decisions add up to a picture that’s getting painted to potential staff before they even apply, let alone are hired and start there. And if you think about, you know, what is this picture we’re painting? Is it just like murky and you can’t see anything isn’t really clear. We painted a beautiful picture of this land. They could come come join. You know, it isn’t just like what’s in the organization’s interest because you really want to be able to negotiate with someone. I would, I would invite a bit of reflection on why you want to change something, you know, because if you don’t already know how much you can pay, that’s how much you can pay. And if you don’t, then you’re probably not ready to start hiring.

[00:11:23.84] spk_1:
Okay. Uh, Vincent Robinson pushed back against the show the salary campaign. His his main point is that now he is a recruiter. He makes a point of saying that his practice is devoted to expanding diversity and accessibility among job applicant among applicants. Yes. And placements that he makes uh, he says that 90% of the candidates that he places are diverse. Bye bye. Common standards. Alright, So let’s, let’s just assume that that’s all the case. Uh, take him at his word for that. He says that the main problem with the show, the salary campaign is that it actually disadvantages folks. Um what’s this point? Because

[00:11:32.54] spk_0:
I mean, essentially, if I can, can recap it, um, the way that we read it and have discussed, invented is essentially saying that by disclosing that salary, so don’t already make it discouraged, right? Would feel that they wouldn’t go for that job. And

[00:12:22.64] spk_1:
Their if their current as it uses the example of someone whose salary is $60,000 and they feel they’re eminently qualified for a job that posts range, or a salary of $150,000, that they will be discouraged from applying because they feel they’re not worthy of that salary. And he says that he has counseled many people in that situation that they should absolutely apply. What does the I’m not I don’t want to make you a spokesman for the show, the salary campaign. We don’t even know who the members of the show the salary campaign are, which we are going to talk about. The secretive side of that. I’m curious about that. We’ll get to that as an advocate for show the salary. What do you say to Mr Robinson?

[00:15:23.34] spk_0:
Sure, I wouldn’t have nothing to do with the show, the salary campaign. And as far as I understand it, it’s a campaign started by nonprofit staff in the charity sector in the UK. Um wow, she and being in love with their julie and I have nothing to do with it. But there are, you know, folks like Julie and the community centric fundraising community and 10 lots of folks in the us have also been calling for this. I think the idea that someone would see a higher salary and think that they are not qualified. I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist like humans are complicated, dynamic, interesting creatures. And I’m sure there are people for whom they have experienced a lifetime of internalized messages that they are not worthy of that job, right? That is not going to be changed by all organizations continuing to hide the salary. We’re not changing the sectors general attitude that everyone deserves more money by hiding salary. So even if, even if there are individual use cases where people were discouraged because of a high salary, that is not a validation for not disclosing it. And ultimately, by showing those salaries, you’re encouraging peer organizations to equally pay that much for the similar title or scoped positions. Um, You know, I think another perspective, we talked about an intent was, well, if that person is making 60,000 there in an organization that has the full kind of, uh, equate herbal scope to that other position, then they probably shouldn’t be making 60. And the issue is that they are currently making too little, not that they are not qualified for a job that makes twice as much right. That the real issue is, is their current place of employment and that that place they should be able to use that job posting to say, hey, I like a race. I think the dynamic that’s not spoken about in the Chronicle piece that I do think is an important part of the conversation about hiring in the sector is the fact that that articles written by a recruit and I think that I have experienced and seen and coached many people applying for jobs who have a very different uh understanding or expectation or assumptions about what’s going on when they are dealing with a recruiter, then when they are applying directly to the organization. I think there’s a lot of messaging and marketing that recruitment firms are, you know, leadership or C. I. O. C Suite ceo type of jobs. And those feel like they imply a level of corporate nous, maybe certain size of organization, you know, and those are probably more likely the factors that are making folks feel like they don’t want to go for the job than the fact that it pays more money. But

[00:15:43.84] spk_1:
it’s interesting just the existence of a recruiter could be off putting to a lot of folks who internalize messages about their credentials.

[00:15:45.61] spk_0:
Not that I don’t think people should use recruiters, I definitely think they should, but I think that that’s an unspoken reality that is not factored into that article.

[00:16:01.94] spk_1:
Right. Right. Right. Which I’m not sure that he would even acknowledge. Yeah. But okay, I

[00:16:06.74] spk_0:
wanna, can I can I can I steer us back to the question and you always get to steer Can I give

[00:16:10.01] spk_1:
you latitude

[00:17:36.74] spk_0:
well, because you said something that I thought was interesting and we could talk about for a second earlier when you were saying, you know, expertise. Uh and I think that’s also a big part of all of this, is that If you were to take to job listings that you found, that said the salary and they said they were both $60,000 jobs, right? 60,000? Um as your annual salary? Mhm. I cannot imagine that you would find those two jobs, say they’re looking for the same experience or expertise or scope of job, even if they were both in communications are both in in programs, right? So I feel like there’s also an opportunity to be very open and intentional with how we phrase or or position to potential staff, what we were looking for when we hired you, because if it’s just like, you know how to use this database and you know, you know, you know how to do these tactical things, I don’t know how it matters who it is. You hire hire the first person then, right? Like if that’s the thing that’s most important to you, it’s just that they can technically do these things that feels to me like you maybe don’t even need a human. That’s a

[00:17:51.64] spk_1:
pretty, that’s a pretty shallow job description. If it’s just a list of four things that you need to be able to do it, right, then you just hire the first person who can do those four things and it makes no difference who it is,

[00:18:15.74] spk_0:
right? But I see, you know, intent as a dartboard and um see jobs posted in the sector on twitter et cetera all the time. I feel like hiring is kind of picking up now and I see so much of it is like we really want you to have experience with X database or X website platform or you know, and like does any of that matter? Can’t you teach somebody the

[00:18:19.26] spk_1:
database? It’s all trainable, it’s all right, we need somebody who’s trainable

[00:18:49.24] spk_0:
right? Like eager to learn, interested in doing the work that we do, but not that you already know how to do certain things right? That’s not the most compelling. And again back to that idea of like you’re painting a picture for these potential applicants, you’re painting a picture that like what they’re what they’re part of. That magical garden scene is like you have a hammer, you have a shovel, you have some seed like you know, it’s probably looks not as appealing, right? It looks like, oh yes, this is beautiful garden scene and I will sit over here hammering on the bench.

[00:19:26.14] spk_1:
Uh I mean uh I guess what we’re, what we’re talking about though, depends on the level that you’re hiring too. I mean if if an expertise is required in something that’s not that’s not trainable, I mean you so you have I. T. Staff, you have the luxury of having write your own development team. Um

[00:19:26.79] spk_0:
So yes, he does the work of a team. Okay. Okay.

[00:19:32.40] spk_1:
Yes. We’ll shout him out now. Go ahead

[00:19:34.25] spk_0:
dan. Yeah.

[00:20:02.04] spk_1:
So you have the luxury of having a development person, web development person. Um So, you know, he has to have a basic level of skill or or beyond basic in certain things. I don’t know whether it’s C Plus plus or drooping or you know, whatever. I don’t know. Html Well, we’re beyond html That I know. So, you know, at that point you would, you would advertise a fluency with something, wouldn’t you?

[00:20:09.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean when we hired for that position, you know, we certainly wanted to say these are the platforms we’re currently using. Um, but okay. And you need to, you

[00:20:15.11] spk_1:
need to be able to support these.

[00:20:58.64] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. But that was, you know, that’s more of like, hey, this is the job. So stop reading if you don’t know what wordpress is, Maybe not the posting for you, but the things that we really want our, that you, I want to be part of a team where every person has leadership responsibility. You know, you’re not just going to be told what to do. Like you also have to come up with what to do and uh, you know, we want everybody on the team helps with the Ntc. You’re going to like carry a sign down the hallway, put it somewhere. Like you don’t just get to sit at a computer. You know, like we really want to communicate that working at what working in china is like and make clear that that’s what we’re looking for, right vs. The list is for this salary. You can do these five technical things.

[00:25:18.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, Wall Street Journal, UsA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, The Hill Cranes, nonprofit Quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten recent exposure. You want that kind of press turn to has the relationships to make it happen. Turn hyphen two dot c O. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Let’s rejoice this summer. We’ve come so far from a year ago from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in this summer. I hope you can. Yes, there’s a long ways to go to My state. North Carolina is less than 50% vaccinated, but we’re so much further from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in how far we have come. I hope that you can do that in your own way. I hope you can schedule some time away or some just some time. It doesn’t even have to be time away. I hope you can schedule time for yourself, family, friends, all of which we couldn’t do couldn’t do safely a year ago. So let’s rejoice in how far we have come while at the same time recognizing there’s a good way to go before we’re out of the woods with this pandemic with the delta variant now and other possibilities of variations. Yeah, we’ve come a long way. I hope that you can take the time for yourself, for your family, for friends to do some rejoicing this summer. Have some fun, whatever form fun takes for you, whatever it is. If it’s crocheting, if it’s travel, if it’s stay home, okay if it’s more time with kids, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, whatever form fun takes for you. I hope you can do it. I hope you can because we are so much further along than we were this time last year. That is Tony’s take two sending blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag, tisk, tisk. It’s your life if you’re using one of those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits, easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Very melodic. It’s like, it’s iambic pentameter. Almost. How do you encourage job posters on the N 10 job board, which I know is one of your more popular pages on the areas on the, on the site at n 10 dot org of course. Um, I know you require salary their number or arrange a minimum or arrange I guess. But beyond that, what, what can you or what can other folks do to either encourage it if they have a job board or working in their own job descriptions.

[00:26:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think a lot of the other work that we do is not very publicly visible. I have had a number of community members over the years since we’ve been requiring salary where they want to post a position. They themselves had already asked their organization, what’s the salary going to be in the organizations that were not posting it? So then they come to me and say like, I don’t have a lot of positional power. But what I could do is like bring you in on a conversation that put some pressure on, you know, and have some conversation that, that does convince them because even if they didn’t want to do it, they’re doing it gradually. I was looking at them so they did it, you know, you know,

[00:26:10.85] spk_1:
you know that,

[00:26:11.79] spk_0:
well, you

[00:26:13.28] spk_1:
Have the leverage of the N- 10 job board and we’re talking about technology if it detects job, the intent job board is like a Seminole place to be.

[00:26:43.74] spk_0:
Right. Right. So I’ve had lots of places where I’ve either helped people come up with their talking points to take to their team or joined email threads or even had phone calls with hiring managers who weren’t convinced, you know, and just spent 10 minutes talking to them about it, um, to get them kind of to the other side. And I think that’s, You know, while it’s kind of maybe not in my job description, those 10 minute calls or helping somebody with their talking points in a Google dog are changing organizations. And I really love between that work, you know,

[00:27:31.84] spk_1:
but that’s using intense influence the same way you do when you, uh, when you sign contracts for, for the NtC that you insist you have, you have certain requirements from, I guess diversity to food to, you know, whatever you use the leverage, use the leverage in that case it’s dollars in hiring case, it’s the N 10 job board you want to be on it. I mean the bottom line is you got to play by our rules. I’m happy to have a conversation with you about why those rules exist and how they contribute to the in 10 values,

[00:27:33.92] spk_0:
How

[00:27:43.54] spk_1:
they flow from the intent values. Maybe more more eloquent, but more appropriate. But in the end, you know, if you want to be on the job board, you gotta, you gotta use our rules if you want. You want the N 10 money, you want the N 10 conference at your center, then we have, we have certain basic requirements that are unyielding.

[00:28:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting because the intent job board, of course you can post a job, but I think most people think of when they think of a job board, like a part time or full time organization that you are working for overtime. But we also, you can also post gigs or RFP s shorter term project type posts and we require a salary or budget to be listed on those two and that’s actually the place where we get the most push back. Um and folks will say, well we don’t know what our budget is until people reply to our RFP. And while I understand that, could I feel like reality, there is just like a, just like a potential applicant to become an employee. A potential contractor also doesn’t know if this is a project that they should bother trying to take on if they have no idea what your budget. So again, you don’t know what your budget is. You’re not ready to hire. Call for our FPs. You

[00:28:56.38] spk_1:
Need to know whether this is a $10,000 project or $60,000 project. I mean without saying a range of $10-$60,000, which is, which is worthless. People, people do that. Do they say?

[00:29:08.44] spk_0:
Okay, sometimes? Yes.

[00:29:10.03] spk_1:
Alright, well that’s

[00:31:05.24] spk_0:
worth. Sometimes. Yes, we try and catch those and talk to people. But you know, I think that folks, it’s such, it’s also such a privileged position to say like, well, we don’t even know what the budget is, where what I hear in that is whatever people tell us is what we could pay. And I don’t think that most nonprofits have a relationship to their cash flow, where they could say whatever somebody says is what we should pay, right? You you likely do have a discreet budget range And even if you feel like it’s really low and you’re sad that it would look low, it’s better that that’s on the table at the beginning, before a bunch of firms, you know, do a bunch of work. Um, and 10 actually just closed an RFP for our own, like it was on our job board, but it was our own RFP to do a website redesign project. And um, we had talked to, uh, so many firms in the community, but one had kind of expressed a bit of a surprise that we were anticipating 10, maybe 15 Responses to the RFP. That that would be a lot of responses. Well, we got over 40 and what we heard from a lot of people is the reason we got so many is because the RFP was very clear. It said why that was our budget and what what we could do in house, what we needed somebody else to do. So, because we have taken longer than our original timeline was internally to be really clear in the RV, we were able to get so many more potential folks that wanted to work with us. And now of course, I don’t know how long it’s gonna take us to read this many are applications, but um, it’s a better problem to have than than only a few that submit and none of them feel like a good fit. You know, now we’ll be able to choose from a great difficult group of to decide.

[00:31:45.34] spk_1:
So it ends up being worth the internal time that you spent. It was beyond your projected time because you’ve got 433 times the number of applicants, uh, proposals that you were expecting. All right. Right. Um, uh, so let’s talk about the show the salary campaign. Okay. Now you all right. So you said you’re not you’re not a part of it. I didn’t know that had started in the UK for one. I feel like they, um, they suffer some because it’s all it’s all secretive. They don’t reveal.

[00:31:46.69] spk_0:
Doesn’t need to be like,

[00:32:01.04] spk_1:
well, yeah, I mean, I think credibility, I think naming who you are, at least some of whom you are, helps with credibility. You know, purely

[00:32:02.03] spk_0:
seeking. But they do say that there are non profit staff.

[00:32:05.84] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:32:24.34] spk_0:
And I feel like their appeal isn’t saying we like this one organization, you know, we’d like this one funder to change their grant application and we are previous grantees. So we have a level of knowledge. Like there isn’t any, uh, in my opinion, there isn’t any justification you need to do to say, yeah, I think people should have to show their salaries, you know, they

[00:32:38.34] spk_1:
Have, like six or 8 reasons why the salary should be shown. Uh, you know, it’s secretiveness creates suspicion,

[00:32:44.14] spk_0:
doesn’t I just I just don’t share that feeling. I feel

[00:32:48.15] spk_1:
like,

[00:34:03.44] spk_0:
um not the number of people that, like, for example, we have because we have talked on the website and the job board, we have a blog post about why we want people to to include their salary. Um, it’s common that folks that we don’t know or or we’re not first name basis, like community member, we know who they are will tag us in a tweet thread and include our blog post while they are trying to convince someone else. We weren’t even heard of that. We don’t know who these people are that are talking, you know? But they’re like, oh well and then to doesn’t here’s their article and you should really do this. So those people don’t even necessarily know who we are, but they’re using it to support their argument. And I feel like I don’t need to go into that twitter friends like, hello, I am a me I am in ceo these are all of the reasons why I get to exclaim this. And you know, I don’t I don’t know that. I don’t know that the campaign, like so many other campaigns is trying to say that the exclusive use of that hashtag are the eight collaborators on that website, right that like anyone can go appeal to folks that are sharing their salary and ask them to do it. You know that it’s it’s about the message. It’s not about the people who have the capacity to build the website and get it out

[00:34:29.54] spk_1:
there. It is. Yeah. As I said, they have six or eight reasons why you should should show the salary. Um All right. Maybe I’m just more traditionalist, but you know, secretiveness breeds suspicion for me. I would like to see a couple of

[00:34:31.27] spk_0:
names that

[00:34:32.06] spk_1:
Uh and then but then you say, you know, but in that case where you were citing, you know, in 10 gets broke. So other folks brought you in. So you’re they presume your credibility

[00:34:42.94] spk_0:
well. But I think it’s the same way where people that aren’t who I’m just saying that because that’s a random number of people, but like whoever was the friends who created that website, like people don’t need to know them in order to use the hashtag show the salary for saying, you

[00:35:00.54] spk_1:
know, and and to agree with the six or 8 reasons that they

[00:35:03.08] spk_0:
have, which

[00:35:07.04] spk_1:
is you’re all very cogent to me. I just I would like them to go a step further.

[00:35:11.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Ok. I hear your concern. I have nothing to do with them. So I can I will not pass this feedback to anyone. But

[00:36:01.33] spk_1:
you don’t know anybody. I don’t know. It’s like people say this is in confidence. I always say, well, I don’t know anybody to tell. Right? And a few people I do know that nobody listens to me anyway. So, so your your confidence is well kept with me. Don’t worry. Don’t worry about that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. You got my confidence. Absolutely. This isn’t confidence. Absolutely. Okay. Um bringing a little more down to uh, some actionable steps or if the if not actionable, at least, things that folks can consider. And I’m always grateful to you that we can use N 10 as an example. You have, you have the N 10 Equity Guide for nonprofit technology which is at N 10 dot org. And my suggestion after that was just search for Equity guide for nonprofit technology in

[00:36:05.24] spk_0:
your or its underneath the resources either way. Okay.

[00:36:29.53] spk_1:
It’s called the Equity guide for nonprofit technology and you have some things that you recommend there and I’m sure that intend abides by or at least tries to abide by as best as you can. Um, and the first one is that is sort of what we were talking about earlier. Don’t assume expertise in technology radio

[00:38:52.12] spk_0:
and I think that this gets a little bit confusing for folks because they are hiring for a position where whomever is hired saying is you tony I hire you. I know that so much of your day is going to be using these couple systems and I think I’m doing doing a favor to everybody by saying, okay, we really want somebody who already knows how to use these things, right. But it is unlikely that the way you use that database or the way you have set up your website or the way you use white books, you know, whatever it is, is exactly the same organization to organization. Um kind of what we were saying before, you want somebody who’s interested in ready to learn how you use your database and maybe you want somebody who is familiar with what databases do and are and has ever used a database. But the idea that it’s really important to hire someone who’s used that exact same suite of tools, it doesn’t, it’s just not realistic. They have not been customized the way your organization is customized people are using Salesforce in a way that is unrecognizable, Salesforce. That doesn’t mean that because they use Salesforce somewhere else, they automatically know how you’re using it. And all of those things, just as you said at the beginning or a teacher, we should be invested in teaching all staff, all of the technical things they need always, not just in their orientation, right? But technology training is all the time because technology is changing. And when we remove those pieces of focus from the job description, it allows us to really focus on what matters more. That’s less tradable, less teachable. And that is, you know, are you solutions minded? Are you interested in leadership and responsibility? Do you have experience with community engagement? Do you come from this community that we serve? I don’t know what things might be specific to the job that we’re all raised from in here in this example. But getting to elevate those other pieces that are maybe more about what somebody wants to do or has a natural inclination towards, instead of Can you click a mouse on the screen? Like we will teach you how to do that part, you know? But if you don’t like working with people, maybe that’s not the job because they’re clicking the button so that they can talk to people right? Like there’s something else happening in that job and focus on that instead

[00:39:10.22] spk_1:
related to that making training accessible. Uh, so, you know, I mean, to me there, those really go hand and glove. I mean, don’t assume a certain type of expertise and then you need to make the training accessible. And as you just said, you know, throughout, because technology is changing, it’s not

[00:40:45.21] spk_0:
just not everybody learns in the same way orientation. Uh just saying like, oh yeah, we made this internal wiggy and there’s a bunch of pages, How about it? Like not everyone can just go look at this wiki. They didn’t make themselves and learn from it. So know that however you’re going to invest in training, its investing in different types of opportunities to learn the same, maybe core functions so that people can engage the way that that works for them. And then take, for example, the way that we do this is we like to, you know, document things so that it is written down for people that like to have the guide of, okay, step one step to do some uh recorded a recorded screen where someone is clicking through doing the thing right? And then everybody brings their computer to a meeting and we all do it out loud together at the same time so that somebody can say I did a practice one of these before the meeting and now it’s showing me the screen and then everybody can look and you’re like, oh my screen looks like this, your screen looks like this. Let’s all learn what this error is, you know? Um and it means that of course it normalizes that everyone needs to learn these things and it isn’t just, you know, one person’s job, but it also creates this opportunity for really deep learning because we engaged in that so many different ways, you know, as a team,

[00:41:04.01] spk_1:
community learning right together. Yeah. Um you know, requiring equitable equipment policies and and that’s related to bring your own device,

[00:42:27.50] spk_0:
bring your own device, something we saw at the start of the pandemic, even beyond, Bring your own device was, you know, in an organization where there’s uh in use a very traditional hierarchy, people that were directors or above got to have Apple laptops. So when they said, okay, work from home, they were ready to go. The managers and below had desktop computers, so they were not ready to go, you know, um, and there wasn’t uh, acknowledgment of the inequity there. And I think that’s a very easy case in point where you can think about that. But we’ve received so many questions over the last 16 months of people saying, okay, well, now that our organization is convinced, then we can kind of kind of maintain a hybrid model going forward. They still haven’t changed the policies that say directors get a new computer every two years and everybody else gets one every six years, but my computer is dying, you know, and I don’t qualify. So the option I’m being told by my own or use my own, which of course isn’t, isn’t equitable is not a fair expectation, but it also creates all these other security vulnerabilities were now working off of machines that are part of the organization’s college.

[00:42:46.30] spk_1:
It goes yes, it is inequitable. It’s also high risk. Right? So, so the employee buys their own now, how do you know what else they have on it? It belongs to them. They are welcome to their privileged and entitled to put whatever they want on it. And how do you know? And what? So now what kind of devices, your data being stored on?

[00:43:22.50] spk_0:
Right. Exactly. And where are people accessing it from? You know, a number of organizations often try to address some level of security vulnerability by making sure that all of the staff laptops have a VPN and they know how to turn the VPN on, but then when they start using their tablet or their own personal computer to do that work in a different way, they’re not going through the VPN. So there’s just so many places where it undermines other efforts you have actually invested in because you are not thinking about what it needs to have devices for everybody that works for them.

[00:44:29.89] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And let’s wrap up with, and there’s, there’s many more, there’s probably a dozen different, if again, if not action, actionable items, at least items for you to think about and discuss all throughout the, uh, in this, in the intent equity guide for nonprofit technology. There’s a lot more than what we’re just the couple that I’m that I’m raising with Amy, that we’re talking about supporting remote work obviously, very timely, uh, enormously, you know, but um, everybody doesn’t have, uh, there’s not the same level of, of broadband access. We know this, I mean, you’ve been you’ve been active for years on the broadband equity. Um and now it’s part of biden’s infrastructure proposal. Well, how much of that will get past? Very uncertain, right? Some people only define infrastructure as macadam and concrete and bricks and mortar and beyond that, you know, they don’t want to know about infrastructure. So, you know, you can’t even assume the simplest things that so many of us take for granted exist among all your among all your staff.

[00:45:49.19] spk_0:
And, you know, I think what’s just so confounding to me is the number of organizations who last March said, oh my gosh, we have to work from home. So they didn’t, they worked from home, they work from home for over a year, and now they’re saying you have to be in the office to work, which what I hear when someone says that is that You do not believe work happened for the last 16 months, and I’m pretty sure that work did have, and it probably happened in ways that were better for each individual staff person managing their day and their needs and what else they had going on in their life. So if if folks have to be in the office, sitting at that desk in front of the screen to be quote unquote work came to me that says, you don’t think what can happen unless they are being surveilled while they do it, right? That realizing you’re stuck and you are definitely not working on this article you need to work on. So you’re gonna get up and like make a big fresh pot of tea that that’s not a part of your human management of your

[00:45:53.61] spk_1:
valuable to you.

[00:46:50.98] spk_0:
Right. Right. So, I think organizations that are pushing for this kind of return to in person are really hurting their staff. There are staff. We’ve already seen articles about staff are leaving on mass instead of returning because that’s not it’s the bar, right? Like we have said, the bar is I should be able to be a human that can be trusted to do my job and also live my life. And organizations that can’t respect that I think are not going to have the kind of, you know, talent and diversity that they may say they want. Um, and what I think is important to also acknowledges, there are people for whom working in the office is ideal for them because they can’t focus at home or at home. There are too many other demands on their time from family members or, or whatever else. But That one person working best in the office doesn’t mean everyone else has to be there. Exactly 9-5 with them, right. There should still be a way to support folks who are really great staff and just can’t be in the office, you know?

[00:47:26.88] spk_1:
Yeah. There are folks who want to be nomads now. You know, we, we can’t ignore what, what we learned over the past 16 months and what people have learned about themselves as well as what hopefully organizations learned about themselves and their people. These lessons, you know, these lessons are with us now for generations, right?

[00:47:31.78] spk_0:
And that’s our opportunity to learn from them and get better and grow versus hold on to an idea of something that also wasn’t working before the pandemic,

[00:48:23.97] spk_1:
right? But we just very few people have the courage. Very few organizations have the courage to attempt something different, okay. And they got forced into it to marches ago and we can’t ignore the lessons that we’ve learned and people are not, people are not going to be willing to take a step back. So yeah, if your organization is insisting, I would say especially now during the summer, I mean, if it’s maddening, I mean, uh, you know, I’ve had folks tell me that their offices go, they’re going back to the office starting in like mid june or july. It’s the summer for Pete’s sake. Nobody had any any summer in 2020. So if, if you have any humanity at all, at least wait until september or maybe even october. But even beyond then, right, you know, we’ve learned so much and people are not going to be willing to go backwards. And if you want, if you want to retain the best people, you know, some of them are going to want to be nomads. Now, some of them,

[00:48:33.52] spk_0:
you’re going to want to be able to be at home when their kid is sick and not have to take off work. Yeah.

[00:48:49.67] spk_1:
Okay. It’s, it’s equity, it’s tech, it’s hiring, its, its retention, it’s good policies

[00:49:01.37] spk_0:
and I think part of how we ended up going all over the place of this conversation is just a reflection of how interconnected all these things are and kind of directional. If you, if you can’t share your salary on your job description, you’re probably, what else are you hiding from people? Oh, now they’re hired. They probably don’t get to have a great computer that they choose, right? Like it’s all part of the same mess.

[00:49:32.17] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. We only contribute 25% of health care premiums. Yeah, exactly. All right. All right. Thank you. Amy Amy sample award ceo of intent. Our technology and social media contributor. Uh, you’ll find her at AMY sample ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward. Thank you for fun. Provocative, interesting conversation. Thank you.

[00:49:41.35] spk_0:
Thank you. As always.

[00:51:25.96] spk_1:
Next week it’s Jean Takagi returns. It’s Jean Takagi. Next week Jean Takagi returns with your one hour legal audit. Who writes this copy this middling lackluster coup. This is why I need an intern. I haven’t put the word out for interns lately, oddly nobody ever applies, but I need an intern to blame for this middling copy. So if you know someone who wants to be blamed, introduce them to me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant End in Blue. Creative Producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott. Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Yeah. What?

Nonprofit Radio for March 8, 2021: Domestic Terrorism and Your Nonprofit & 21NTC

My Guests:

Mickey Desai, Heidi Beirich & Pete Clay: Domestic Terrorism & Your Nonprofit
Insurrection at the US Capitol. Insurrection by redditers against hedge funds. Our nonprofit community is also at risk of domestic terrorism, regardless of mission. What are those risks and what can you do to minimize them? In collaboration with the Nonprofit SnapCast podcast, my guests are Mickey Desai, SnapCast host, Heidi Beirich at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism, and Pete Clay with CyberOpz.

 

Amy Sample: 21NTC

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns to reveal what’s planned for NTEN’s virtual 21NTC on March 23 to 25. Many of their smart speakers will be guests on Nonprofit Radio over the next months. Amy is NTEN’s CEO and our social media and technology contributor.

 

 

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[00:02:22.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of synesthesia if I sensed that you missed this week’s show. Domestic terrorism and your non profit insurrection at the US Capitol Insurrection by Reddit Ear’s against hedge funds are non profit. Community is also at risk of domestic terrorism, regardless of mission. What are those risks and what can you do to minimize them? In collaboration with the nonprofit snap cast podcast, my guests are Mickey D’s I Snap cast host Heidi Barrick at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism and Peat Clay with Cyber Ops, also 21 T. C Amy Sample Ward returns to reveal what’s planned for intends Virtual 21 NTC on March 23 to 25. Many of their smart speakers will be guests on nonprofit radio over the next months. Amy is N ten’s CEO and our social media and Technology contributor. On Tony’s Take two podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is domestic terrorism and your non profit. It’s my pleasure to first welcome Mickey D’s I. Mickey and I are co hosting this week’s show. His podcast is non profit snap cast. He invented the nonprofit snapshot, a micro assessment and dashboard for nonprofits. His past includes work at IBM Tech Bridge and Southern Crescent. Habitat for Humanity. Mickey is at NP Snapshot and the company is at nonprofit snapshot dot org. Mickey. It’s a pleasure to co host with you. Welcome. Thank

[00:02:25.39] spk_4:
you, tony. Glad to be here today.

[00:03:30.24] spk_1:
Absolutely. Thank you for coming up with this idea. Thank you. It was a team effort. That was good. It was your idea. I adopted it immediately. I’ll give you that. But it was your I was very I jumped on it. But it was your idea originally, right. Heidi Beirich, also with us. She is co founder and chief strategy officer at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism. She’s an expert on American and European extremist movements, including white supremacy, nativism, anti Semitism and anti government movements. She has appeared repeatedly on major television networks and in documentaries and radio programs and now a podcasts exploring extremism. Had he led the Southern Poverty Law Center’s intelligence project, the premier organization tracking hate and anti government movements in the United States, she’s at Haiti. Barrick, B E I. R I, C. H. And her organization is at global extremism dot org. Heidi. It’s very good to have you. Thanks for being with me and Mickey.

[00:03:32.94] spk_2:
Oh, I’m thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me

[00:04:03.74] spk_1:
a pleasure. And Peter Clay Pete Clay has a 25 year career in cybersecurity. He has served as chief information security officer cso for three very different organizations as a consultant to large international financial organizations, including the World Bank and multiple U. S. Federal agencies. He’s founder of cyber ops at Cyber Ops. That’s oh, pz cyber OPC dot com. Pete. Welcome to thank you, Tony and nonprofit Snap guest.

[00:04:11.54] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

[00:04:37.14] spk_1:
Pleasure. Thank you for doing this with us. Hey, I got a first question for you. Um insurrection at the U. S. Capitol Insurrection by Reddit Ear’s against a Wall Street hedge fund. That bet against Gamestop and AMC stock. These two things monumental happened within a month of each other in January and February, Our nonprofits potential targets of insurrection.

[00:06:05.74] spk_2:
I don’t think there’s any question that nonprofits could ultimately be targets in this kind of mob action like you saw in particular off of Reddit related to the Gamestop stocks. Uh, you know, when nonprofits right about advocate about things that folks don’t like, This is probably the most likely way that you’re going to see an attack. Come. And I can just tell you from my years at the Southern Poverty Law Center, my work now at the Global Project Against Hate and extremism. We while I was at SPLC, and now we write a lot about the kinds of people that were involved in the insurrection at the Capitol. And when you do that, you are absolutely going to get harassed. Online. Doxed Online Targeted online. Fake news Produced about you Online. You can have mass hits to your Twitter feed from people attacking you, and, you know, there there are a lot of other things that can happen, including attempts to, you know, disrupt your Web services. Attack your payment systems so it’s more serious than just somebody saying you know that I’m a communist liberal and and should die, right? They can actually attack the systems that the nonprofit relies on to function. And there are real world effects because sometimes there is a need for security in real life, as if these things become threatening enough. And and it can include up to death threats, which we received many, many times, especially while I was at the Southern Poverty Law Center.

[00:06:45.84] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, it’s incredible. And you’re right. The physical attacks could be physical. That could be virtual. That could be reputational. Uh, and I want to broaden it to I I think I want folks to realize that it doesn’t have to be that you’re doing controversial work like you are, you know, fighting extremism and nationalism. White supremacy. Um, I mean, it could just be something that a group or even a person just doesn’t like. Like you could just you could be doing environmental work. Or you could be you could be feeding the homeless, and somebody in your community feels that your your efforts are your your work is worthless and and should be devoted to something that that that that that person thinks is important. It doesn’t even have to be controversial. Like like gun violence or gun control or or planned Parenthood or something, right? I mean,

[00:08:00.04] spk_2:
no, I think that’s exactly right. I mean, nowadays, with this technology at your fingertips, right, the ability to zoom bomb people, you know, send them direct, hateful, direct messages reply to tweets online that any person really can have access to this and and engage in it so quickly. Before you could even report it right to like a Twitter or Facebook, anybody could be maligned this way. Also, it’s very easy to put up fake websites, right, That targets someone with a bunch of falsehoods. You could you know, a YouTube video can go up in seconds or on TIKTOK. So, yeah, anybody who doesn’t like what you’re doing And I suppose this would apply to corporations and all kinds of things has at their fingertips the ability to to smear you, smear your work, you know, liable You all kinds of and threaten you. So that’s right. You don’t even have to be doing something controversial. If one person or a group of people like you saw with the coordinated activities off of Reddit. Decide you’re their target. Well, this is very easy to do to somebody.

[00:08:21.84] spk_1:
Yeah, and the one person we can look at Walmart, Walmart in El Paso. The synagogue in Pittsburgh. Um, other examples, Uh, the black church, the black church. Mass murder in South Carolina. All individual individual actors. Um, Mickey, I want to turn over to you. What? What do you What do you want to do? What do you want to ask? Well,

[00:08:43.14] spk_4:
I have a number of questions, actually. But let’s listen, I’m trying to actually narrow it down to one. Um, and I don’t know who exactly to address this too, because I think it applies to both Heidi in your experience, Um, that the two questions that I kind of wanted to touch on briefly are, uh do you have any quick insights and to into what leads people to extremist behaviors? And, um, is there a way to to separate and quantify the odds of real life crime versus cybercrime?

[00:10:52.64] spk_2:
Those are good tough questions, Vicky, Uh, honestly, we don’t really have great research on what causes one person to become an extremist who is exposed to a whole bunch of terrible ideas and somebody else doesn’t necessarily go down that path. You know, Tony just mentioned the attacks in Pittsburgh and in El Paso and in Charleston. In those cases, each of those individuals had imbibed a bunch of white supremacist ideas. That’s what led to them to commit those attacks. But those particular ideas, sadly, are rampant across a lot of different social media and websites. So the question becomes, Why Dylann roof in Charleston, right? Why? Why the guy in Pittsburgh? Why does this particular individual snap? You know, there are a lot of theories, especially coming out of the FBI’s behavioral unit, on people who collect grievances, perhaps have domestic violence in their past. Or alternatively, in many cases come from broken families. So they look to white supremacy as a way to sort of replace that in a way that’s similar to maybe kids joining gangs, right kids of color. But it’s the data is not very sophisticated, and we don’t know a lot about it, And this is part of the reason why the federal government looks like it’s going to be pouring some serious money into research on this front so we can tease these things out better. Uh, and there’s a lot of work that needs to be done with, you know, big online data sets to try to figure out what are the triggers. Look, the one thing we know is that in the last few years, the ranks of white supremacists have grown, and the age of the people joining them has been falling. So very young, particularly white males are getting sucked into this universe. And so, you know, there’s something about the online thing that has more of an impact than when you used to experience these ideas out in the real world. There’s something going on there that’s particularly dangerous. Okay, Mickey. Now I’ve have forgotten what your second question was. Can you tell me again?

[00:10:58.90] spk_1:
I do that all the time. I’m so glad to questions like, write it down or I have to do the exact same thing. What was the other part?

[00:11:11.94] spk_4:
The other part is, um, is there a separation? Can you measure the fractions between real life in person? Crime versus cybercrime?

[00:11:16.34] spk_2:
Uh, what motivates it is that we,

[00:11:18.53] spk_4:
uh, frequency of incidents.

[00:11:21.44] spk_2:
Oh, gosh. I mean,

[00:11:23.06] spk_4:
that’s kind of redundant, but

[00:12:44.64] spk_2:
Well, I mean, the big thing that I spent time studying is how the online moves to the offline. Right? So how is it that it triggers domestic terrorist attacks? Basically, And so we’ve already mentioned a few of the big ones here. We can also talk about Christchurch, New Zealand attacks. There were two attacks, uh, in Germany in the last year, driven by white supremacy. I mean, the one thing I can tell you we know is there’s a particular type of propaganda. It’s called the Great Replacement. What it argues is that white people are being genocide in their home countries. I know this sounds lunatic, but this is what these people believe and being replaced by Muslims, immigrants, non white folks, often Jews are blamed for orchestrating this whole business. That particular ideology has motivated a ton of terrorist attacks. So we know that. But, you know, we could say the same thing about Cunanan, right? This cookie conspiracy about Democrats involved in child sex trafficking, no basis in reality didn’t exist five years ago, and last year, the FBI labeled that particular conspiracy theory as violence inducing, and we saw a lot of cute non supporters at the Capitol on January 6 during the insurgency there. So we know something’s trigger more violence than other things. But again, I think all of this requires a lot more research. And, you know, we’ve only had this social media capability for a very short period of time. So it’s not surprising that we’re kind of behind the eight ball and figuring all of this out.

[00:13:10.84] spk_1:
Heidi, I want to follow up with you on, uh, acceleration ism and what that’s about. But let’s bring Pete Clay in. Pete. What? What worries you on the on the cyber side? I mean, I’m not sure nonprofits are properly invested in cybersecurity thinking about it. Uh, have a plan. What? What? What concerns you on the around Nonprofits and and cyber

[00:16:55.54] spk_0:
tony. Let’s let’s keep it focused. First of all, on on Heidi, right? I Heidi. I live 10 miles outside of Charlottesville, Virginia. Um, so I kind of understand, um, and it’s fascinating to me because exacerbating that is, one person can appear to be 10,000 right online. And so when you start to look at what accelerates in these groups, you know, it’s there’s There’s several fascinating studies that were done about the early days of Wikileaks, where it looked like there were tens, hundreds and thousands of people that were working on Wikileaks and it was two guys, right? And the same thing with these movements and one of the attractions of the movement is I’m with people that think like I do. You don’t know if it’s one person or 10 people or 1000 people, right? It’s just people that think like I do, So all of those things and and highly, you know, Please protect yourself. You know how to do it. But protect yourself online, right? Because what we’ve seen and I’ve gotten pulled into several of the conversations here locally, people long after Charlottesville were over. We’re getting doxed and having fake news done. And as the trials played out locally and the Antifa supporters would show up at the trials, is this stuff just kept going on for years here? And so it’s so important to understand, Even before you talk about organizational protection, it’s so important to understand how to protect yourself, right, and it and it really starts from a personal protection standpoint of understanding that basically everything that you do online is tracked somewhere by someone. And and if that sounds really big brother ish, I don’t mean to alarm people. But, you know, I was just reading an article a little bit earlier today that says, now that two thirds of all emails have, um, tracking software tracking pixels built into them so they know when they were open. They know how long somebody looked at them. They know where the I P address was and all of those sorts of things. And so for anybody in Heidi’s line of work, it’s so incredibly important to practice good information, security protection because, first of all, the work that she’s doing is so incredibly important. But then, second of all, just to protect herself from online hysteria and nonsense turning into real world threat. And so all of those things can apply to, particularly for for nonprofits that engage in in Let’s call them that the anti hate approached to the world. If you’re going to annoy somebody, you have to have more than just antivirus and, you know, a cousin Bob that kind of does something for somebody, um, to kind of protect you because it is so simple. The vast majority of attacks today are automated attacks that somebody launched days ago. They may not even be pointed at you, but because you have a weakness they can exploit, they’ll run the attack through automatically. They’ll pull the information and then figure out what to do with it and how to monetize it later. And that goes for individuals or small nonprofits or big companies. So all of those things kind of kind of come into this one space together,

[00:17:27.74] spk_1:
so you need to have protections built. I mean, you need to have someone in your organization focused on this, Um, and again, it’s not just it’s not only the, you know, the folks doing important work like Heidi is doing. I mean, it could be an organization that’s to any to 99 a half percent of us would be just mundane work helping in the community. But somebody in the community doesn’t like it.

[00:17:30.54] spk_0:
Well, big, big,

[00:17:32.05] spk_1:
the potential threat is broad.

[00:18:00.24] spk_0:
The potential threat is huge, because again, what Heidi is doing in and Heidi, I I’m not trying to use you as an object lesson, but but you are a lightning rod in this sense. Right? Because the vast majority of non profits aren’t going to be specifically targeted. It doesn’t. You don’t have to annoy anybody to be the victim of a cyber attack. You just have to have the wrong configuration in place to be the victim of the cyber attack.

[00:18:30.44] spk_4:
It may make sense to describe exactly the difference between an opportunistic cyber crime versus a targeted cyber crime. You know, we’re Pete. If I’m not mistaken, you’re talking about someone who is basically just pinging tons of i ps to figure out where the vulnerabilities are, and then they can come back later and exploit them versus an activist or an extremist out there who is specifically targeting an entity that they don’t like in order to damage their system or to take their money or something like that There. Is there a difference between the way those two things are perpetrated,

[00:18:49.14] spk_0:
tony, Mickey, and again decide right there, man, I’m just going to use that. I’ve been decide right there. Um, I can scan the entire Internet every connected device on the internet for vulnerability in 45 minutes from the desktop that I’m sitting at

[00:18:59.44] spk_1:
can,

[00:22:48.24] spk_0:
right? Yeah, Anybody can you can. Any of us can write every 45 minutes? What that means is if I have knowledge and can do some very, very simple things. And in fact, you can actually buy kits for ranging from a couple $100 for not very good, one to a couple of $1000 for some pretty good ones that will actually take the information from that scanning and plug it into and just automate an attack that just works 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. And it just runs continuously. It’s completely non personal. If you have this vulnerability that it can exploit, it will exploit it, bring the information back and do whatever it’s going to be done with it, right? That’s a very different thing. Then when you see somebody you know the Southern Poverty Law Center. Um, I was doing some research about 10 years ago, and the Southern Poverty Law Center website was one of the top 15 most attacked websites on the entire Internet, and it was continuous. It was a continuous barrage. It was a continuous everything Yeah, that’s got those automated attacks in there. But it’s far more dangerous because people that understand how to break into systems are actively trying to take the information that they get from the Southern Poverty Law Center or from a website that they don’t like. And they’re actively using it to try to break in, to deface the website, to change messaging on the website, to get inside the system, to exploit um, sensitive information. And so all of those things are happening on an ongoing basis and where the cybersecurity markets have not done a good job is there are way too many products that are being sold out there as just buy our stuff and don’t you don’t have to worry about this anymore. There is no product in the world that actually that’s a true statement, for you have to take multiple products and kind of put them in the right position with the right architecture to be able to protect yourself. There are some that can cut a lot of risk, a good firewall. It’s almost worth its weight in gold if it’s properly configured and monitored, because the other thing that we see all the time is when we go in and we look after these great big data breaches, you can almost right. It’s almost like a metronome at this point. Such and such company had a data breach. I don’t know what happened here, the suspects that possibly broke into it because we all want to think some nation states actually breaking into everything when most of the time it’s honestly, something like one of those automated attacks that did something. Oh, the alerts all went off. Nobody responded to the alert. If your fire alarm goes off and you don’t respond to the fire alarm, it’s kind of on you at that point, right? So what’s really critical in cyber security is not just buying some products, but it’s having people that are at least understand how to respond to the alert and are responsible for protecting the organization. As it stands. It also gets a lot more complex because a lot of those services that Heidi talked about earlier are hosted and served by a different company, and you have to understand where their security stops and where your security has to begin.

[00:23:21.34] spk_1:
Pete, what kind of person is a nonprofit looking for, uh, I know the listeners to nonprofit radio, and I imagine that’s true for Mickey Show as well. Non profit snap cast. You know, there’s small shops they’re not going to have A. They may not even have a director of information technology, let alone. They’re certainly not going to have a chief information security officer. What are they? What are they searching for? What kind of expert are they looking for to to help, to advise them.

[00:25:19.74] spk_0:
So what they’re looking for is, First of all, one of the fastest growing areas right now in cybersecurity is for the first time in my 25 year career, cybersecurity experts are starting to show up on boards of directors, right either as advisers to boards or as board members themselves, because it’s considered to be critical. This is happening in the Fortune 500 as well as for much smaller companies. The second thing is to sit down and talk to your managed service provider. If you don’t have any of your it done in house, talk to the people that are providing your manage your manage security. If there are managed service provider, if they’re providing your your laptops and your endpoints. Chances are they’ve got some stuff that they can help you with at that particular point. What we found and the gap that we’re really filling in that market is we take big company information. I don’t want to turn it into a commercial. We take big company, enterprise level cybersecurity capabilities, and we deliver those two small companies at a very effective price. And so we are trying to make it as simple as possible for people to do the right thing. But before you go hire anybody before you go do anything, there is one thing that you can do that will take a ton of risk out. And that is train your people in cybersecurity. There’s a ton of stuff on YouTube. There’s a ton of free training out there and point after point after point. Before you buy firewalls and anti virus and endpoint protection and all of this stuff. Train your people because training your people has the most positive impact on reducing your cybersecurity risk that you can possibly imagine.

[00:26:13.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications outlets like The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch and The Chronicle of Philanthropy. Do you want to be in places like that? Do you want them talking to you and quoting You turn to has the relationships with outlets like these and others. So when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy or something related to the work, you do the call turn to turn to, we’ll call you turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to domestic terrorism and your non profit. Mickey, you got you got something I don’t want to.

[00:26:14.94] spk_4:
Yeah, no, that’s cool. I want to ask Heidi again. There’s there’s a number of questions I think I want to ask you that sort of hinge upon. How did you get into this area of interest? How what inspired you to to get into, uh, intelligence of this of this nature?

[00:30:18.24] spk_2:
Sure. Let me just say something about what Pete just said on the training your people. I got to tell you that, uh, especially especially when I was at SPLC. That’s where we found a lot of the major attacks coming in. Like in other words, if people hadn’t been known, don’t click on this thing. Don’t go open this thing, Don’t do this thing. It’s like we would have just been opening ourselves up to. And you’re right, these many, many attacks that that we were constantly sustaining. So I’m just I’m reminding myself of all the little trainings that made me do there and actually, how smart it was, even though I might have been annoyed by them at the time. Okay, Mickey, how did I get into this? Uh, it wasn’t entirely planned. I was working on a PhD. I’ve been studying fascist movements in Europe for a really long time and in Latin America, and I actually I was at Purdue University, and I thought I was going to become a professor and in my sort of job hunt that first year, um, I ended up for a bunch of not interesting circumstances taking an internship at the SPLC. And, uh and so I was I literally, during my time there, I did every single job in the department that I was in, right? Started as an intern, then was a staff writer, you know, up, up and up. And what I found when I went to work there is First of all, I’d always had this, uh, you know, visceral dislike of fascist movements, of white supremacy of what it does to people, perverts, democracies. You know, Obviously it’s one of the worst ideas ever come up by humankind, and and I found the fact that I was in doing activist work. In other words, I was there to expose these groups right about them. Let the public know about the law enforcement, know about them. And if I could do something to tamp down their activities, I found that just so much more satisfying than writing academic publications. That may have been important but didn’t have that kind of real world impact. So I sort of got hooked on. You know what good non profit student, no matter what they’re into, which is impact right? Whether that’s feeding people or housing people or it’s trying to, you know, break up white supremacy is a threat. Two Americans, in this case at SPLC. So that’s what really hooked me on it. And because I had a lot of background on these kinds of people, these movements, these groups, it was easy for me to hit the ground running and and and that’s why I stayed. I mean, I just It was that satisfaction of knowing Okay, we’ve just written an expose on this really vile group that celebrates the Confederacy, is growing at a very fast clip. This is slowing down their membership drives or we have found information on criminal activity by a particular group, and we’ve handed it off to law enforcement and they’re going to take care of it. And that means fewer domestic terror incidents or hate crimes or whatever the case might be down the road. And the other thing, that was really interesting about it. And I should say the Anti Defamation League does a lot of this similar kind of work. There are other groups that do. It was that at that time, So I got to the law center in 1999 in 2001, of course, where the horrible terrorist attacks 9 11. At that time, people weren’t really watching white supremacy and it was metastasizing and growing as we all focus, understandably so on the threat coming from, you know, the Middle East and Al Qaeda and so on. And and I think back to that time And I think if the splc and the HDL and some others weren’t doing that work, we would have known nothing about it. I mean, there would have literally been nobody paying attention to these movements at that time, and that would have been an absolute tragedy. So, you know, I’m really proud of having been able to do that work and keep doing that work now. But it was the impact part, the ability to make something happen that would make life easier on others. That really kept me and kept me in the game.

[00:30:31.34] spk_4:
The reason I ask is, you know, coming from my own background in mental health, we learn early on that if you’re in a position to be touching the darker side of human nature, the shadow side, as some people call it with any sense of regularity, then that is a good recipe for burnout. Unless you know how to really deal with that, you’re in a position to see the same thing on a societal level. How did you not burn out?

[00:32:05.34] spk_2:
Well, I took. I did take a lot of vacations, will admit, and sometimes you just have to take a break from the material. I mean, for some people, it’s harder than for other people. Right when you’re watching racist material all day long or anti Semitism, whatever the horrible thing, maybe it can. It can get to you. I will say that once. I made the decision last fall to, uh, leave the center and start this new organization to focus on transnational white supremacy is what? Which is what it is. Um, I took, like, four months off. I mean, I just It was it had been I felt like I’ve been running a marathon in particular since Donald Trump ran for office in 2015, and I did take a chunk of time off, and it’s a legitimate thing. I mean, I think a lot of organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center and others who monitor this information are starting to realize that maybe this isn’t something you should be doing 40 hours a week, right? The key to have breaks, you need to have access to therapy if you need it, and that it would be good to spend some of your time working on something positive, right? As opposed to viewing negative things all all the time I’ve actually heard questions I’ve had a lot of people ask me, Um, like, for example, there’s an organization called Hope Not Hate in the UK that tracks the same kind of extremism over there. And we’ve all had conversations in the last year saying, Well, what is it that you do for your staff, right? How do you protect your staff? How do you make sure it’s It’s, you know, sustainable, that you don’t want burnout? So it’s It’s really important, Mickey. And honestly, it’s a conversation that I never heard the first decade, decade and a half that I was doing this work. It’s as though the issue didn’t exist, right? Or at least in this sector, it didn’t exist. And now I’m glad that it has talked about

[00:32:28.14] spk_4:
right well, and you let up exactly to the point that I was hoping you’d make, which was at least we kind of touched on it. You know, the acknowledging that the burnout is there, but being burnt out can make you a little more vulnerable

[00:32:34.66] spk_2:
to harm,

[00:32:46.64] spk_4:
especially if you’re in a little a personal position where your your actual physical safety is on the line because I think it does. I think it dulls your awareness, and I think it makes you a little bit careless in the way that you might conduct yourself and I don’t know, correct me. If I’m wrong, I could be completely

[00:33:45.84] spk_2:
off base with that. No, I think that’s right. I mean, I don’t think there’s been enough sort of thinking about what the impact is of being exposed to this. What’s interesting is that you’re now seeing it. For moderators on the big social media sites, right? There was a big lawsuit announced yesterday by Facebook moderators, who feel that they’ve suffered considerable harms. Now they unlike what my experience was. They don’t get the positive experience to know that what they’re doing is probably helping people right there. Just looking at heinous material of all kinds, right involving Children is not just about hate material and taking it down and not really maybe getting the satisfaction of feeling like it’s achieving something, but But we just haven’t talked about it enough. There’s probably a callousness that gets, you know, it probably reduces your empathy and sympathy in many ways, so there’s a lot of side effects that we need to know more about, Especially when it comes to really gross content. And and there’s a lot of parts of the world where you know, nowadays and nonprofits you’re seeing that stuff. Even if that’s not what you’re monitoring, you may be subjected to it.

[00:35:13.84] spk_1:
Right? I d I experienced something like that myself in the I guess in the in the days when Richard Spencer and white supremacy were more talked about than they are now, Um, what was that like, I guess 2017 2018. Something like that. I started listening to a podcast called The Daily Show. Uh, what you say? Yeah. Yeah, the show. Uh, nobody knows. There are very few people know there’s the show is the Hebrew word for holiday for the Holocaust. So it the name of the show is the daily Holocaust. And and I wanted to get to know you know what? These people what do they talk about? How do they rationalize their thinking? What do they who Who are these folks besides Richard Spencer and and I after, um, I guess I binge listen for, like, a weekend or something, but I had to I had to put it down for a for a couple of weeks because it’s it’s so hateful and hurtful. Um, I experienced that. Personally, I I as much as I was still curious and I did go back to it. But, you know, like you’re saying, you know, you took a four month break. Your work is a lot more intense than mine. But just on my little microcosmic way, listening to one podcast for a bunch of ours, I couldn’t take it any longer, Had to put it away for a couple of weeks. Uh,

[00:36:09.13] spk_2:
I had a colleague. I have a colleague, not not name to be mentioned who have suffered some serious post traumatic stress. After watching, you might remember the Christchurch attacks at the two mosques where 51 people were killed were run on Facebook live, right? The guy livestream this and I have a friend who was, of course, we were monitoring these attacks as they were happening right at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and he told me for weeks and weeks after because we watched the video multiple times right to figure out what we could see what’s going on here, where they’re more Attackers, etcetera, etcetera. He said he was having nightmares. I mean, it really deeply, deeply affected him, which we shouldn’t be surprised by, right? I mean, and there’s probably I mean, I think about the victims and some of these attacks or the populations who are targeted by them. What that must feel like I can’t even imagine. Mm.

[00:36:22.93] spk_1:
Let’s go back to the to the nonprofit threat. I I did want to ask you about acceleration ism what, what, what that movement is and and how that could potentially be a threat to to the nonprofit order,

[00:38:27.22] spk_2:
well, acceleration ists who are typically neo Nazis. There’s a couple of big groups that people may have heard of the base. That’s the English translation for Al Qaeda. Actually, you know they’re Nazis, Autumn wife in which is a group named that means atomic weapons in German. What’s the What’s problematic about these groups in particular? Is that what they mean when they say they’re acceleration? Ists is their goal is to accelerate the end of democracies or social systems or social orders. They want to actually blow them up, rip them down, destroy them, replace them with, you know something neo fascist or whatever They’re fancy. They’re dark fantasies might be. And they’re involved in a ton of violence. A ton of violence had dozens of them arrested for plots involving murder, attempted murders, murders, killings. I mean, it’s really, really bad stuff. If you get in the if you end up in the sights of somebody like that, Um, you know it, it’s going to cost you. I mean, and the and the and the These are online movements. I mean, one thing I’m thinking about when Pete was talking about being targeted. These are not numb schools when it comes to Web technologies. These are people who are early adopters. They understand their messaging has to get out online. They know how to use tools and all kinds of things to affect the work of nonprofits and others who they don’t like. They dislike everybody that they perceive to be on the left, right. So this isn’t just about doing anti hate work. It could be any kind of entity that’s doing what I would consider social justice work or or, you know, work for the public good, especially if you’re something like black lives matters. You could easily be a target of these people, and they’re and they’re pretty scary. Um, you know, probably one of the ugliest websites in the country. It’s kind of they advertise. The Daily Show is called Daily Stormer, Right, named after a Nazi newspaper. Their Web master is on the run, living in Transnistria, part kind of an unregulated part of Moldova. And he runs a bunch of American websites, and he orchestrated attacks where he took over fax machines in universities around the world and put out anti Semitic propaganda. This guy’s clever. He’s clever, and he’s probably capable of doing just about anything. If he sets his mind to it online,

[00:38:44.12] spk_1:
we should we should go back to, you

[00:38:46.38] spk_0:
know, you shouldn’t what Heidi is talking

[00:38:49.65] spk_1:
about. You

[00:38:51.10] spk_0:
know, I tony, I appreciate it, man. I really do.

[00:38:57.72] spk_1:
It’s important for groups to know that, you know, they got to protect themselves online and how to do it.

[00:41:22.31] spk_0:
Yeah, but I’m also telling you that the map over my back right there, right is Oxford University. I spent my junior year there, Right. Um, my fascination was Germany 1923. Where did all this stuff starts and you know, also as a transplanted, grew up overseas and grew up other places. And so when we moved to the American South kind of adopted the whole mythology of the Confederacy and states’ rights, Not the slavery part of it, but the whole mythology of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson and all the rest of that. And I’m such a history freak. I won all of those arguments for 30 years, right? It was all about states’ rights. It was all about this stuff. And I ran into a You have a professor and over the course of about a three hour meal just got totally demolished in every argument that I made. And so it’s a fascinating concept that suddenly we have the Confederacy, which morphed in about 18 90 because they basically rewrote it in the Arthurian legend, right? Which is what we all learned in high school and college growing up. But now it’s been grafted onto nothing but pure Nazism, right? Moving forward and how that happened and and how that’s happening online, I think is it is at uh huh. Actually, one of the great stories of the data the military been talking to friends. They can’t tell the difference between the recruitment techniques used by Isis and used by Al Qaeda and used by by the white supremacists. The techniques are exactly the same with the same result. So what? Heidi? Heidi, I got your back. I’ll protect your organization wherever it is. You just got to tell me what you need. I got you. Okay, that’s that’s not the problem. Um, please don’t include that in in in the piece. But I’m just saying there’s no more important. This is what’s going to determine the outcome of our democracy in the next 2025 years.

[00:42:25.40] spk_4:
That’s it. If I can. If I can steer us back to some practical things that nonprofits can do to contend with this, you know, we’ve we’ve we’ve sort of been dancing around the issue of awareness of the magnitude of the problem and the various things that nonprofits might experience. Uh, Pete and I did a really excellent, uh, short snap cast episode on doing cyber security on a budget, so I don’t want to rehash that, but maybe it does make sense to sort of touch on some basic things with, uh, you know if we’re if we’re talking about nonprofits, that probably the vast majority of non profits are not going to be specifically targeted for their work of their ideology. Uh, probably the vast majority of non profits might become a victim of opportunistic crime. Um, but is the is the effort to defend themselves Are the steps that those nonprofits can take the same.

[00:46:22.78] spk_0:
The steps are the same. Now, Heidi, this is the part where you need to tune out. Not listening because you’ve got a different set of a different. You’ve got a different risk profile, Shall we say to use that term of art? Okay. But we can take care of you to we’ve got you covered. Um, first of all, figure out what is the least amount of it you can use to do your job and do it well and do it effectively. Right? So if you don’t have to turn everything on with your machines, the idea is is what is the minimum I can use because of the less you use, the fewer of those automated attacks you’re going to get hit with. Okay, The second piece of it is passwords aren’t terribly useful anymore. Okay? We used to think we used to be really, really silly people and we would run around and tell people You have to have a 12 character password with upper and lower case and special characters and all the rest of the stuff, and you have to change it between every 45 90 days and all the rest of that stuff and what we realized was we drove people insane and they quit listening to information security. People like me talk because we were snatching their lives away from them. What the bad guys were doing was they were capturing those password files and just replaying the entire hash. They don’t even decrypt them anymore. So you need to have two factor authentication for your bank account and for any of your communications, right? Any of your personal communication because that’s where those risks are. And if you’re multi factor authentication, in some cases now with really good stuff can be biometric where you type in your password, and then they just use the biometrics on your phone or whatever other devices out there, or cameras and everything else, and we’re seeing huge leaps forward in that stuff movement going on. Finally, you have to get past the idea of thinking that hackers are these hoodie wearing geniuses that can get into anything at any point at any time in the world, Right? There are people that work for nation states that what they do looks like magic, right? They’re all backed by huge research departments and huge capabilities that it takes a nation state to do that level of research. This stuff that’s come out about the solar winds attacks for the last in the last couple days. Make no mistake. Yes, they may have found a very simple password that an intern left years and years and years ago. By the way, that’s the most terminally stupid excuse ever given by a CEO for losing a major hack. Right? Let’s blame the intern. Um, but the guys that did that attack and the ramifications of it were backed by literally hundreds, if not thousands, of very highly trained engineers. Those guys are typically not coming after you unless you’re Heidi. If you’re Heidi, they may be coming after you. Um, but if you use multi factor authentication and you use and you patch your machines and you use good any virus and things like that. Do those things that are available to you. You’re going to stop the vast majority of those attacks. And then the way you deal with those attacks that just standard tools aren’t going to stop is you become what’s called resilience. Okay, resilience. Which means I have good backups of my system. You want to take over my laptop? Great, erase everything. Restore from backup. I’m back up and running in a couple hours. You haven’t stopped me. Okay? And that’s those are the important steps for any any, um, non profit out there to to kind of put together and to really think about.

[00:46:31.48] spk_1:
That’s cool. Pete, I’m not taking out the part where you pledge to have Heidi’s back. Your the information security guy with the heart. How can I take that out?

[00:46:47.68] spk_0:
Uh, I’m just telling you, I I got it. I got to meet one of my heroes today, and I didn’t even know Heidi’s name it. I’m dead serious. It’s, uh it is critical

[00:46:49.97] spk_1:
evidence of humanity. We’re not cutting that

[00:46:51.77] spk_0:
out. I’m a cybersecurity guy. I’m not human. We need to bite your tongue.

[00:47:01.98] spk_1:
You know all the evidence we can get for humanity. So, No, I think

[00:47:03.87] spk_4:
you’re right. I think Pete has the vapors, and we need to keep that in. Okay.

[00:47:08.27] spk_0:
No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, it’s appreciate you got a fan and a follower. Um, and and dead serious. If you need help, just reach out. We got your back. Okay, Um,

[00:47:22.98] spk_1:
it’s just but, uh,

[00:47:29.48] spk_0:
it’s hiding my only challenges. I know how they do it. So it’s really hard for me not to do it to them.

[00:47:33.18] spk_1:
That’s vindictive. Wow. He’s got a heart. But he’s vindictive. Double hedge, hedge

[00:47:42.32] spk_2:
effective. Not predictive,

[00:47:44.01] spk_1:
right. Friends stay friends with him. I

[00:48:04.77] spk_4:
have I have one quick question for Heidi, though. I mean, we’ve we’ve sort of talked about a ton of cybercrime and how to prepare for it and deal with that. But what if you become the target of of in life offline physical violence? How does a nonprofit decide to decide that their risk for that is significant enough that they should do something about it, and then what should they do about it?

[00:50:28.36] spk_2:
Okay, well, I’m not the expert at where the threshold exists. But I can tell you that when I was at the SPLC, there were a handful of people who were the targets because we were sort of the faces of the organization, right? Anybody who was doing media would be in that position, including my colleagues who are still there right now, right that are doing media against these kinds of folks. We brought in outside security experts with our security team to take a look at the volume of threats and the level of threats they spend a lot of time looking at, sort of almost like when you hear the chatter and Al Qaeda is increasing right and that would be a time when there might be a possible terrorist attack. You know, you hear the government say that we looked at those same sorts of trends and we had a very close relationship with the FBI field office in Montgomery, Alabama, and where other offices were so that we were constantly sending in threats and material and and we had very good protocols around bomb threats and other kinds of threats. These were just we had to train people just like he was talking about about protecting yourself with all this stuff online. There were trainings that were required for that. And if if somebody was, you know, very prominent, maybe this is a lawyer in a case right against a hate group, and so their faces plastered everywhere at a particular time. And the chatter was growing up. Going up. There were times when we actually had to put physical security on people as a measure. But I wasn’t really the expert who decided where that threshold was, but it was a proactive thing to do. And I think anybody who’s involved in activities that are seen as controversial or hated by a group of people, you know, I don’t know if it’s right, left or center. I don’t care where you’re coming from, but if you’re in that kind of basket where you’re going to, you’re going to face those kinds of threats. You really have to think about that physical security and there are differences between material posted online that’s demeaning or ugly or vile and what is a direct threat, and you have to really keep your eye on that. Like I remember at one point I got mailings at my home in Montgomery from Klansmen that were very cryptic and weird. That was a far more serious situation than people, you know, saying mean things about me on, you know, on Twitter. So you know, those are all. But I would say, you know, you need to talk to security professionals or at least local law enforcement, have a good relationship with local law enforcement. Um, if you’re doing work that could could lead to offline harms basically.

[00:50:32.86] spk_4:
So I should invite my beat cops over for breakfast every once in a

[00:50:36.53] spk_1:
while. I was going to ask about not only local, but FBI or Department of Homeland Security. I mean, on your depending on your visibility.

[00:51:59.26] spk_2:
Well, FBI is probably your best bet when it comes to threats in the world that I was in, because it’s also their responsibility to take care of domestic terrorism and extremism and whatnot. Right? So they had a knowledge like the local sack knew, knew a lot about the movement. It might be different depending on where you are in the country. We also did you know Well, I still do. Did law enforcement training on extremism, So we had a lot of contacts in federal agencies. We had good access, actually, to the people who knew these movements and understood the threat, which was lucky. But, you know, I’ve known people. I knew some folks were working in immigrants rights in Maryland who got vicious, vicious threats. Um, you know, by people who despise immigrants, despised Latinos and so on. And they didn’t have as good of access. And there were many, many times, many times over the years I’ve been reached out to by groups like that saying, What should I do? And it’s shocking, actually, that people don’t even know that the first thing you should do is pick up the phone, call your local law enforcement, call the FBI and preserve the evidence. It’s amazing how often people delete threatening emails threatening everything direct messages and voicemails. And you should never do that. You’ve got to collect that evidence and you’ve got to let law enforcement know.

[00:52:08.55] spk_1:
Honey, what’s a sack you mentioned? I’ve jargon jail on nonprofit radio. What’s your

[00:52:12.62] spk_2:
special agent in charge? Sort of. The head haunt show in the Montgomery FBI

[00:52:20.45] spk_1:
in a regional office. Special agent charge. Okay. Thank you. all right,

[00:52:21.35] spk_4:
jargon. Jail. That’s interesting.

[00:52:25.65] spk_1:
Yeah, we don’t like jargon. What do you think, Mickey? We tap these tap. These two experts.

[00:52:34.55] spk_4:
Yeah. Uh, you know, I don’t think I want to abuse them anymore. Um, but it’s up to you. I’ll defer to you if you have any other anything you want to touch. I think this has been a really good conversation.

[00:53:12.85] spk_1:
I think we I think we covered it. I think they covered it. Um, I’ll let you take us out. I just want to remind folks that they are Heidi. By Rick. She’s at High Heidi Barrick and her organization is at global extremism dot org. And Pete Clay, the chief information security officer who’s who’s a human being, has a heart. You’ll find his company at cyber ops dot com. Cyber oh, pz dot com. And so I want to thank Heidi and Pete and Mickey. Thank you very much again for thinking of this. Let you take us out.

[00:53:18.05] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony. It’s been a pleasure to work with you on this episode. Uh, that is tony-martignetti non profit radio, and I am Mickey. Decide with the nonprofit snap cast. Thank you for being our audience today. We’ll see you with another episode soon. Be safe.

[00:55:33.64] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s Take two. The podcast. Pleasantries Sometimes I’ve slipped up. I used to call podcast Podcast Pleasantries. The podcast Pleasantries are going out. They are. And they went out last week and they’re going out again. So So there you go. I’m grateful. I’m grateful that you listen to the show. I know the show helps you. I get emails saying I’m a board member. We listen, I listen, we talk about the stuff at our board meetings, I send it to the CEO. I get emails from C. E. O s saying they’re having their board members. Listen, I know it’s helping you fundraisers as well. Board members, consultants. I know we’ve got a smattering of consultant listeners. I’m grateful. I’m grateful that you’re listening, and I’m gratified that nonprofit radio helps you do your work. You’re bringing it to your CEO. You’re bringing it to your board. That’s terrific. It’s just raising conversations, right? Ideas, conversations and maybe often, I hope, action items. I’m glad. I’m glad. Non profit radio helps you do your work. So pleasantries to you, our podcast listeners that is Tony’s. Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time. Here is 21 NTC. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Amy Sample Ward. You know her? She’s the CEO of N 10 and our social media and technology contributor. Her most recent co authored book is social Change Anytime, everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at Amy R s Ward for Renee and Anton is n 10 dot org. How are you, Amy? Sample words. Good to have you

[00:55:36.04] spk_3:
back. Yeah, it has been a while somehow. I don’t know. Time. Time is an accordion, and

[00:55:42.05] spk_1:
I don’t know how it

[00:55:43.07] spk_3:
works.

[00:55:56.94] spk_1:
Time is that that’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that, but yes, I agree. I do agree. And, uh, yeah, it’s been a few months. It was. I think it was late, late, 2020 when you were last on and we chatted. You doing okay out there in Oregon? In Portland?

[00:55:59.64] spk_3:
Yeah. We are doing okay today. It feels like

[00:56:03.71] spk_1:
today That’s an important qualification. That

[00:57:30.03] spk_3:
today Yeah, they feel like we’ve had from fires to win to ice to pandemic. You know, it’s certainly been, uh, rough and unpredictable Number of months But we are just, you know, just short of the conference being live, and it feels so great. Because last year, of course, we didn’t get to have the conference. Um, but it also feels so weird because normally, uh, you know, we kind of call this the cupcake panic. I think folks who do events may understand this term of you get so close and there’s, like, so much to do and, you know, fun sponsors and committee members are like sending cookies to the office, And you’re just like, Well, I guess I’m eating five cookies right now. Like this is my lunch. I’m just in this time, I’ve got to do everything. And normally we would be doing that in an office filled with, you know, two pallets worth of boxes that we’re shipping up to to send to the conference. And you know, Stafford. Oh, my gosh, I just got through this person who can help me and kind of getting into it with each other. But now, of course, everyone’s just in their home quietly typing away on their computer and feeling like, Gosh, it feels like there’s a whole lot to do. Am I the only one that feels that way because you don’t really get to see each other in the same way. So

[00:57:42.33] spk_1:
all right, so let’s talk about 21 NTC. It’s coming up. Let’s make sure everybody knows the dates. When is it?

[00:57:46.43] spk_3:
It is March 23rd through 25th.

[00:57:48.87] spk_1:
Thank you. So

[00:57:50.02] spk_3:
a Tuesday through Thursday

[00:57:52.83] spk_1:
and we go to n 10 dot org to register

[00:58:06.02] spk_3:
yes and 10 dot org slash ntc is everything you need. Program registration, information about community events, anything you want.

[00:58:17.32] spk_1:
Okay. And 10 dot org Yes. And 10 dot org slash and TCC. Alright, So what are we facing this, uh, in this pandemic Virtual 21 NTC. What are we looking at?

[01:00:35.91] spk_3:
Well, you know, I think, um even though this is our first year doing an entirely virtual NTC, we’re really trying to take the same approach that we’ve taken and I think been known for for the 20 previous years, right, that the NTC is a conference, but it’s not like other conferences you go to, you know, it is it is about community and connection. And you know, the things that make you who you are not only your job title. You know, the lunchtime tables to find other people who like West Wing or, you know, whatever it might be. We’re trying to really design the conference from that as the center. So, um, at an in person, NTC we actually have, you know, had around 125 or more sponsors and exhibitors, and people can engage with them or not. I mean, quite honestly, because it’s in an in person conference. You walk wherever you want to walk, right? Um, and this year we’ve actually limited it to just around 30 because we didn’t want to have to give up so much of that virtual space to sponsors honestly. And that was our one way of thinking. Well, how can we really make this feel like this? Is those community conversations? Of course, technology providers, platform providers, consultants. We still want to register and be part of the conference. But like also join that West Wing conversation. Don’t just feel like you need to talk about the service you provide, or the product you provide, right? So we’ve really focused on the community peace, and there’s, I mean, there’s like different folks limiting meditation sessions Every day there’s live bands every afternoon. There’s all those community conversations, you know, folks that want to connect on different things and still 150 breakout sessions. So, um, and you know that desire we’ve always heard from the community of I wish I could have my clone and go to multiple sessions at once. Well, one benefit of the virtual is all the sessions are alive, but they’ll also be recorded and then on demand. So you can attend one of them live, and then you can can attend the other, like 17 concurrent sessions at your leisure.

[01:00:56.11] spk_1:
You’re okay, so your registration includes attendance at all. The all the recordings that you want to consume.

[01:01:00.32] spk_3:
Okay,

[01:01:02.51] spk_1:
cool, cool. Cool. Um, NTC Beer is always a big deal. That’s always an event. It’s one night. It’s usually it’s usually the first night.

[01:03:06.10] spk_3:
Yeah, I think it’s usually, um, NTC. Beer is one of the only NTC events that intend staff have nothing to do with planning. Um, community members do that, and it’s usually, I think, the night before the first day, and we actually had a call with the NTC beer organizers. What’s going on with, You know, what does that look like in this virtual space? And, um, you know what? What is encouraging people to have a drink on camera together? You know, it’s very different to attend NTC beer, whether you choose to drink or not, because everyone’s like in one big room together, and it’s like a fun kind of entry way. But in this virtual space, I don’t know that there’s a way to do it. So instead, we’re thinking about just making very clear community members who have come to the conference before so that they can be there to help welcome folks into some of those more community conversations. And one way we’re doing that each morning, before breakout sessions start, there’s going to be a group of community members that are not intense staff, just like chatting, You know, like when you go to a conference and you get your coffee and you haven’t spoken out loud yet and you’re still waking up. But you get to listen to those other people at your table who are already having a conversation. We’re basically just broadcasting that, so there will be, you know, four or five people talking about what’s ahead on the agenda, what they’re looking forward to, what they great tip they heard yesterday in a session. Whatever. That kind of warms you up for the day. So even just moments like that, where we can make clear there’s community members that you can talk to, There’s folks who have been here before, um, and not try and do a direct 1 to 1 to the in person conference because it just felt like it won’t be as good if we’re trying to just compare it to the to the in person style. Okay,

[01:03:42.70] spk_1:
okay. And you start with a lackluster host. Of course. You know, rather than focusing on the sessions are the keynotes and I asked about the first thing I asked you about is NTC beer. So we should talk about the we should. I guess we should talk about the sessions and the key notes. Um, the sessions are gonna be outstanding. Of course I’m gonna be capturing. I’m hoping to get another 30 or 35 as I do as I have for the past six years or so. Um, interviews, which will be a lot easier to do because we don’t have to bunch them into 2.5 days. So

[01:03:43.10] spk_3:
we’re going to We don’t have to do them while we’re tearing down the exhibit hall.

[01:04:01.19] spk_1:
Exactly. The NTC has come down around my last interview a number of times. The lights dim the barrack, the not the barricade the, uh, the drape drape. Things are coming down. Those polls that the drapes are hanging on are coming down. There’s a forklift backing up in the

[01:04:02.94] spk_3:
background. We could recreate those sounds if you want to have to get,

[01:04:38.99] spk_1:
I have to spend a fortune on sound effects. Um, yes. So it has often come down around my last interview, but, um, so we’re not constrained this time, So there’ll be there’ll be easily 30 or maybe 35 interviews of smart NTC folks. So yes, So there’s 150 sessions. Um, let’s make the point that this is not only for technologists, we say this year after year, but you say it more eloquently than I do. This is not only for technology people who have technology on their business card,

[01:05:52.29] spk_3:
right? I mean, we just we’re hitting the 12 month mark on a pandemic that has forced everyone to work from home. So if if the last 12 months have not made the case to you that everyone in your organization uses technology, then I don’t know what could make that case. You know, the NTC is people of every job type every organization type every budget size, you know, and people of all different backgrounds, people that have a computer science master’s degree and people who have never had the opportunity to have that kind of education in any way. So everyone is welcome. And ultimately, I think the thing that makes it really accessible regardless of what your job type is is for the most part. Sessions aren’t trying to tell you. Here’s how to do X, y and Z with some product or some very specific type of project because they’re saying, How do you think about fundraising in an online environment? How do you think about program delivery? You know, using different tools? What does it look like to use mapping technology? They’re really about decision making and creating a plan to do something well with technology, and they’re not about any tool that you might already have at your organization.

[01:06:20.18] spk_1:
Okay. Right. Thank you. So it doesn’t matter whether you, you know, or don’t know drew people from WordPress from Jumla from C plus plus from HTML from https. And, yes, you don’t have to know that it’s a technology for its a conference for technology users as well as technologists who have master’s degree in computer science. Okay.

[01:08:16.27] spk_3:
And this year, I’m also really excited because in addition to getting to have 100 and 50 sessions like we have in the past, we’re having three key notes instead of just one. So, you know, that is maybe great in this virtual world because I don’t know that we could have gotten these three amazing people to all fly on the same, you know, in the same three day window to a location to do three key notes. But maybe now we’ve set the bar for ourselves, and we have to always have three going forward. But, um, there’s information about all these folks up on the site, but I’m sure when I say their names, you know, folks listening will recognize them. Rouhani, Benjamin, uh, wrote the new Jim Code. If you have read that book. If not, I recommend to read it. Nokia Cyril, founder of the Center for Media Justice, and Nicole Hannah Jones, of course 16 19 project from the New York Times. So just incredible people thinking and talking and working at the intersection of technology and media and data and race and equity and justice. And what what is happening when we’re using technology for good, for better, for way, way worse. You know, how are we building our tools to replicate the things we’ve already harmed each other with? And how do we kind of get out of that and use technology in better in different ways, which I think as a whole, you know, the thousands of NTC attendees we have every year? That’s the conversation they’re showing up for right every day in their work, not just at the NTC. So I’m excited for the opportunity to have kind of three different takes on that conversation from these folks. And I think that again will really kind of set the bar for NTC s in the future. Now we’re going to have to have three people every time.

[01:08:54.27] spk_1:
All right? Well, you can compromise somewhere else. Maybe in the future, we can compromise somewhere else. Um, I will confess. I only know Nicole Hannah Jones. Okay? Right now. But she’s a luminary. Uh, when that 16 19 came out in the New York Times, whatever was the magazine? What? I mean, I subscribe online, so I read it, and she’s she’s a luminary. She’s on, she’s on, lots of she’s done. She’s done lots of lots of media. Um, and I’m sure the others are very, very well known as well in their in their field. I just I just know Nicole Hannah Jones. That’s all three. Terrific. Excellent.

[01:09:45.17] spk_3:
Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I think it will be really awesome. And part of building a virtual conference with the community in mind is we’ve We’ve kind of shrunk the number of hours in the day that we’re saying is officially ntc time. Um, back in the in person conference, it was like registration opens at 7. 30 in the morning. You know, today, 30 we’re doing a reception all the way until 5. 30. Then we’re going to some party. You know, it’s like just so many hours, But now, knowing that we’re across time zones knowing that so many participants are going to have other people in their house off of their video right that they are needing to coordinate with in some way for life. And we kind of shrunk the number of hours in the day. And then we’ve also like, each day the keynote is at a different time, so that if folks really can’t join in the morning their

[01:09:58.09] spk_1:
time,

[01:10:47.46] spk_3:
they on a different day, they could join the keynote live, you know. So first day there’s a morning, middle day, there’s a middle, and last day there’s an end of conference keynote. So folks across times and honestly, we are really hoping that folks, you know, unplugged their headphones and kind of turn the computer to their whole family. And, you know, these are conversations you should totally invite your kids in to listen to or your partner or your parents, you know, whoever you live with, um, both for these awesome keynotes. And like I said, at the end of the day, there’s going to be art sessions live bands like sit down for dinner and just, you know, unplug your headphones and let the band play while you have dinner. We really wanted to feel like the NTC

[01:10:48.39] spk_1:
family. It’s a family affair.

[01:10:50.00] spk_3:
Bring your family.

[01:10:51.35] spk_1:
Bring your family for no extra cost. No extra

[01:10:53.57] spk_3:
cost. Exactly.

[01:11:12.66] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. All right. Cool. Um, it’s exciting. Well, all right, the last thing I gotta ask you about this is how can is there was there anyway, would you were able to conceive of any way to replicate the food experience of an in person NTC. That’s such a great all registrants being shipped a food item to share. How could we or it just It just wasn’t possible.

[01:11:50.86] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s such a good question because we did actually talk about it, and I have no part that’s a challenge or that presented. The biggest challenge for us is the food expectations that we share with our partner. And whatever Ben you were working with is, you know, very high percentage of the food is allergen free is, you know, can match various both, like religious or allergy needs all of these things

[01:11:53.14] spk_1:
and you do gluten free, right? So being

[01:12:55.25] spk_3:
able to find, like a packaged product that was packaged and could be shipped and still not be bad, it was like, what would we send, you know, just like dehydrated lettuce or something like, I don’t know what could match everything and be packaged. So instead, we have put together an attendee kit that if you register by early next week, you’ll receive yours before the conference. After that, you’ll still receive one but shifting this on you, who knows when it will arrive? But it’s got, you know, all all kinds of, like, the fun, great, reusable, environmentally friendly kind of swag that you maybe would have picked up in the exhibit hall. And so instead, we’ll ship it to you so you can still join And, you know, hold hold up your stuff with the logo on video, but no food, because that felt like I felt like a real gamble.

[01:13:05.15] spk_1:
I understand. I understand. All right, well, we’ll have to look, we look forward to 2022 because the food is exemplary. So I had exactly absolutely. All right. All right. Um, I think we just leave folks with the u R. L go to n 10 dot org slash ntc, but you just go to n 10 dot org. It’s right on the homepage to its right up top and

[01:13:30.15] spk_3:
registration. I mean, it’s a virtual event. Registration doesn’t have to close before the event, so come on over. We have decided to keep the member rate low and not raise it for late registration. So, pro tip. Just get your membership, which is on a sliding scale of the amount you can pay. And then you get the low conference rate any day.

[01:14:15.04] spk_1:
Okay, Prototype. Thank you. All right. And 10 dot org slash ntc. I endorsed the conference year after year. This is my sixth or seventh, Um, and you’ll hear lots of smart folks from, uh, from the NTC Speaker roster on on nonprofit radio, but attend the conference. I mean, for no other reason. Well, there’s lots of reasons, but part of it is supporting in 10 support the community. It is. It’s a It’s a diverse, supportive, in itself fun community. And that is a type of community that we should be supporting.

[01:14:22.44] spk_3:
Awesome. Thank you, Tony. You are always an amazing supporter.

[01:15:34.24] spk_1:
Plus, you’ll learn a shitload. There’s that. Thank you. All right. My pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you. Amy. Good to talk to you. You’ll find her at Amy at Amy R s Ward. And, of course, n 10 and 10 dot org. But you want to go to intent dot org slash ntc. Thanks, Amy. Good to talk to you. Thanks, tony. Next week. Relationships with Funders by Shavon Richardson If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, You with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Special Episode: Tech Equity

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Tech Equity

Amy Sample Ward

NTEN has a new guide on equity for nonprofit technology, to deepen the racial equity conversation. To explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and nonprofits. You know who my guest is. You know who it has to be. Amy Sample Ward, NTEN’s CEO and our technology contributor.

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[00:01:31.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism and white privilege. Tech Equity and 10 has a new guide on equity for non profit technology to deepen the racial equity conversation to explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and non profits. You know who my guest is? You know who it has to be. It’s a me sample ward and tends CEO and our technology contributor response erred by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives, raise more money, change more lives for a free demo and a free month. It’s my pleasure. Always a privilege to welcome Amy Sample Ward to the show. She is our social media and technology contributor and CEO of her most recent co authored book is social Change Anytime everywhere, which is actually running a little old Now you’ve been resting on that laurel for a while.

[00:01:34.73] spk_0:
I was gonna say the same thing. I was gonna say, Gosh, I just looked at the book the other day and saw how many years ago that came out. I think we have to like, we gotta find some other filler sentence for that intro.

[00:01:48.29] spk_1:
Oh, you don’t want to write a new book. We just

[00:01:50.23] spk_0:
What? What? What is there? What would I write a book about? You know?

[00:01:56.14] spk_1:
Oh, you’re a bright person. Oh, there’s more to say about technology. You could go deeper into technology subject, but it’ll be a lot easier if tony-martignetti just changed your intro.

[00:02:06.05] spk_0:
Yeah, then there’s no like writing.

[00:02:16.94] spk_1:
Alright. No six months of writing, collaborating, finding publishers. None of that imagine. Imagine the eat that I could let you off the hook with on Dhe. You’ll find her, of course, at Amy Sample Ward dot or GE and at a me RS ward, the not so recent author. Any simple words?

[00:02:26.34] spk_0:
How you doing

[00:02:26.76] spk_1:
out there? Portland,

[00:03:27.24] spk_0:
You know, after feels, I think it feels kind of moment to moment in Portland. Whether it’s Portland, especially inspired or scared or motivated or ready to just hunker down in the house and never leave again. You know, it’s kind of Ah, a many front situation happening in Portland right now between fires and protests. And cove it, of course, and so many things. So you know, it’s it’s interesting to visit as a team, and 10 has 15 staff and nine of us are in the Portland metro area and six are all over the U. S. So, um, you know, we’ve got staff in Seattle in San Francisco and New York and all these other places, so it feels like every day when staff meet, you know, there’s there’s kind of, like our correspondents out in the field reporting in from all the different the different corners of all these different issues, you know, And it kind of helps everybody feel connected and informed in, like, a real way versus Oh, I saw this random article that got tweeted. You know, it’s like, No, you’re really in that city. What’s it feel like? You know,

[00:04:02.44] spk_1:
you’re the 1st 30 minutes of your staff meetings were probably what’s happening in San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Right in Portland for those outside. Yeah. Um, okay, let’s talk about equity equity and technology

[00:04:06.94] spk_0:
sounds again.

[00:04:11.64] spk_1:
So how did N 10 get into this guide.

[00:06:35.54] spk_0:
Well, since we’re talking about this for the whole show, I’ll tell you the long story version and that is that a number of years ago, actually, in 2016 a tw the end of that year you may remember something of note happened that has shifted some of the direction of our country and we twice a year. All staff have, like, come together in person. If you could remember what what being in person with other people was like on the board also has to in person meetings a year and at the staff and the board in person time. At the end of 2016. We did this kind of like a visioning exercise, But it’s not the type where we were trying to create a new strategic plan envisioning specific toe intend, but mostly saying, like, What do we think is gonna get worse in the sector? What is there anything that’s going to get better? Are the things they’re going to stay the same just like what? What’s the environment we’re working in? And then from there, what kind of role could we play in service to that? Because then 10 really sees our work as community centered in service to the community and the number one opportunity that came out from both the boards work and the staff’s work. Waas being a leader in talking about or putting forward information about that intersection of ethics and equity and what we are doing. We’re using technology tools that are also being used. Bite people holding kids in cages were using technology tools that are making a ton of money off of us were you know, like all of these pieces, that whether we can change those things or not, we can at least name those things and equipped folks to better understand them and talk about them and make decisions to kind of navigate what all those implications are for their staff and for their community. So we started really elevating that type of content in articles and, you know, within the community a lot of NTC sessions on Dhe. Then last year in 2019 it was like, Okay, it’s really time for something that folks could like, you know, print and hold in their hand and say, like there’s a lot of ideas here for me to work with, you know, something more than individual sessions or articles. So we put together really diverse and honestly, just like super cool. Like I loved getting to talk to all these people working group of community members, folks that work, you know, in in building tools and using tools that, you know, all all across the spectrum. There have.

[00:07:23.00] spk_1:
Ah, a lot of the work group members were We’re have been guests. Oh, really? That’s awesome. Raj Aggarwal, Tracy Krohn Zach Tristan Penn who works for in 10 Jason Shim Ruben Sing. And they have all been guests. Yeah,

[00:07:25.21] spk_0:
well, look at you. You’re pulling the right people. You know,

[00:07:28.79] spk_1:
we are. I am. We are. Yes.

[00:07:33.54] spk_0:
So we had this big working group on dhe. Really? Just went through a lot of, you know, idea intake and try and kind of synthesize that and then regroup and talk it through and brainstorm or things. And, you know, I think what ultimately came out is a guide. I know we kind of talked about this before, but just to name why we named it that. Yeah, Report

[00:07:59.24] spk_1:
versus guide. Okay. We’ll talk about that.

[00:08:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, we I mean, we really wanted to create something and make clear that even this thing we’ve put out is probably gonna look different six months from now as the sectors that were working in change as we as organizations changes, people change, you know, there might. We might feel there’s more things we can add to it. There might, because it feels like it becomes the standard and we don’t need to name it anymore, and ADM. Or, you know,

[00:08:32.42] spk_1:
right it sounds artificial to say it’s a report on equity racial inequity in technology used by non profits. E think of the conversation.

[00:09:39.44] spk_0:
The other piece that we really wanted to acknowledge in this is that it is not like it’s not comprehensive. This, like in so far, is like this is not the list. You know, there’s nothing else to dio that would improve equity. Um, and you know, it’s not the things that are included there. We really are like bumpers or directional guides. They don’t tell you what the policy should be, because ultimately the specifics of the policy you’re gonna be based on your organization and your staff. And how many staff do you have? And where do they were? You know, there’s all these other pieces that we don’t know, But we can tell you like Don’t go past this bar, you know, stay within these bumpers on dhe that will get you going in the right direction. So ultimately downloading or reading on the on the website, the Equity guide is just like the jumping off point to a lot of work. It is not already the work for you. You

[00:09:53.84] spk_1:
know, I was very careful to when I was writing the description, I wanted to say to reveal intersecting inequities, not reveal the intersecting inequities again. A ZX If it’s if it’s the finally

[00:10:03.32] spk_0:
the only ones. Yeah,

[00:10:37.54] spk_1:
right. This is all. There’s no more exploration to do now. You’re like like the entire white privilege. Racism, conversation. It’s a It is a It’s a conversation. It’s a journey. You know, Every guest I’m talking about these issues with says the same thing. No, of course. And I know you and I have talked about it. It’s long term. It’s not a check off item, it’s it’s maybe never done, but it Z it’s consciousness. It’s working through policies. It’s having difficult conversations, so there isn’t going to be a definitive guide and definitive report record, right?

[00:11:06.34] spk_0:
You want this to, of course, be used at organizations that maybe haven’t done a lot of investing specific Teoh Mawr Equitable outcomes internally or with their community as well as organizations who feel like they really have, you know, and 10 has really deeply and across the organization invested in equity work. We look at this list and are like shit, man, there’s a whole lot of work to dio, right? Like any organization, No matter how much you’ve already started or gone down that journey, it is forever work. So there’s tons on within the guidelines where we think, Oh, that’s we We’ve done something there. But now that we’ve done something, we can see how much more we could do there, right? We could see what even further down each of those roads could could be for us. So and this has to

[00:11:36.79] spk_1:
be continuing work because, right, it’s just as just the same as your um propagating your values, the organizational values when so when, when racial equity becomes a value, you don’t say your values have an end game. The value of, um, I’m trying to separate it from

[00:11:58.03] spk_0:
before. I mean, I think it’s a really great way to think about it, thinking about racial equity, the value, because all the other values you may have, you know, whatever they are, joy, you know, whatever. You also don’t see them as having a singular definition. You don’t say old equals this. You say, Hey, in this decision we’re trying to make right now, what would bold look like? Bold is our is our value. What would bold look like? Right. So why why wouldn’t we also say the same thing about equity and say, hey, in this situation in this decision, whatever we’re working on, what is that what you look like here? You know?

[00:12:35.84] spk_1:
Right. Okay. I just had the servant Ah ha. Moment around naming equity as a value of the organization on dhe. Therefore, and as you just described, all the other values don’t have in points checkoffs. Yeah, completion statements. Why would racial equity? Uh, okay. It was a bit of a moment for me. Sorry.

[00:12:58.65] spk_0:
I’m glad I could be here. I’m trainable, e.

[00:13:08.54] spk_1:
I swear I’m trainable. All right. Um, so equitable technology. So you talk about, um, inequities that intersect between the non profit community, non profit work and technology. That’s that’s the That’s what we’re trying to elucidate here in this in this guide that the way those two circles intersect

[00:16:42.54] spk_0:
Mhm. Okay, you know, I think that a lot of in equity, especially in equity related to our technology, gets overshadowed. Like every other instance in organizations, we kind of look less at the technology because we’re focused almost exclusively on programs. And so we’re saying, you know, just like we do in budget conversations or anything else. You know, there’s this focus on programs, and so equity looks like how racially diverse are our participants or something like that, which is important. And I’m not saying Don’t look at that. But that’s not the end of what equity means in your organization, especially when we start talking about technology. Because if you’re providing service is or programs to a racially diverse group of community members and you’re using a technology tool, you know you’re using ah database, for example, where they register on your website for those programs. And it requires they enter certain data that some groups either don’t have or feel really untrusting trying to give that data to you. And you’re not thinking that through that right there is already a nen equity, right you are. You are trying to discourage certain people even though you don’t maybe recognize it, or or unconsciously making the decision to do it. You are discouraging groups of folks from participating in your programs just because of that technology decisions, you know, So technology doesn’t operate just visit’s itself. You know, it’s not just the hammer sitting on the shelf. It is what’s allowing you to do your work to communicate with people. Thio Get them registered for that program, whatever it is, And we can’t let go of technology being that instrumental to all of our other decisions. Otherwise, we’re not going to acknowledge, like, really what’s influencing the outcome there. And, of course, then we think about, you know, non profits and the the technology sector. I think one big area that we talked a lot about in the working group WAAS organizations aren’t inclusive in the ways they make decisions, so so often we see non profits, not including community members in decisions about the way the program might run or the way the website might be redesigned. Those air, anything that involves the participants should have have those participants in the same process for the decision and the planning. But organizations so rarely do that. And then, on the technology side, we have a really not diverse group of people building these tools. So we’re having a real lack of inclusivity of any kind in the building of the tool, then being used by an organization whose not including all of the participants in the decision to use it or how to use it. Of course, it’s gonna enter some problems, right? Like there’s no way that that can’t be the outcome here. A very small group of people made it, and now an organization is using it kind of without their eyes open to it.

[00:17:21.84] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help you build relationships with journalists because of a relationship built by turn to the New York community. Trust got to features in the Wall Street Journal. That’s how well it works when you have the existing relationships turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Penna Pento, was an editor at The Chronicle of philanthropy. There are turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to tech equity. So let ZX spend a little time. Let’s let’s talk about the the guide itself. Oh, you you haven’t You haven’t organized for for users and for builders of technology and for funders,

[00:17:36.64] spk_0:
which is profit. Could be all three of those things, right?

[00:17:51.74] spk_1:
It certainly could, Absolutely. If you’re building technology and you make and you provide grants, you you fund fund people or organizations, of course, equitable text. So, you know, there’s a lot of you gotta look for listeners. You just got to get the guide. I mean, waken doom or than weaken then I can with authors, Right? Because those air 250 page books, this is not a 250 page guide. It maybe, maybe maybe in a couple of generations it will be,

[00:18:10.42] spk_0:
but so we can currently Currently I think it’s 27 pages.

[00:18:25.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So you got to get the guide. If you want to do this work, if you wanna be making be centering equity among all your other values as you make your technology decisions as you think about technology and the way it’s used in your organization or purchased in your organization, or maintained or used by those who you’re serving or any of your other constituents. And, you know, you gotta get the guide, obviously, which, uh, the guide we could just get the guided and 10 dot or ge right?

[00:18:46.24] spk_0:
Yep, totally free up on the website. If you go to end 10 or GE and then you click on resource is listed right there.

[00:19:09.44] spk_1:
Okay, so let’s talk about Equitable Tech Not assuming tech expertise. Yeah, training, you know, having equitable policies around use, um, providing money where a lot of organizations wouldn’t typically What? What? What are our concerns here? What do you what? The group

[00:19:17.49] spk_0:
we’ll talk

[00:19:18.24] spk_1:
about here

[00:22:23.24] spk_0:
that, you know, hiring folks whenever they think about having a more diverse staff. Racially diverse staff. They always think thio hiring new people because the place they’re coming from is a staff that isn’t diverse. Writer is predominantly white, and there’s this feeling that, like, well, so we’ll just not change any of our higher being process or change. Our organizational culture will just hire people of color through that process somehow which, if that If that was all that was gonna happen, then you wouldn’t be in the situation, right? Especially when it comes Thio technology roles. And that doesn’t mean that it’s like the I T director, as we talked about before it, you know, communications director is the technology staff person, right? Like they’re making lots of technology decisions all the way across an organization. So recognizing that the folks who have had all kinds of systemic access and encouragement to go to college to graduate from college, to graduate from college with a computer science or some other technical degree like guess who those people are super well resourced white men, right? Like that’s just been the reality we’ve had for decades. So if you’re hiring for roles that use technology and you’re saying that you require a college degree, you require a degree in some specific field that you, um, are expecting folks to apply and already have experience or knowledge of specific products, your you are signaling in that job description. We are looking for that well resourced white man, right, because while of course there’s like exceptions to that reality, that’s not you’re not going to necessarily find the exception in there, right? So what? What’s the difference in saying that someone has a college degree or not like, Are they having to write term papers for their job? Like, I don’t know that that isn’t necessary In 2020. I don’t know that we need to rely on those kind of outdated expectations. Nor do we need to say you already know how to use all the products that we use. Well, did all of your staff know how to use them when you bought them? No. You trained them. Why wouldn’t you train a new person? You know, so really investing in hiring great people who love your mission, want to do your work are from the community you serve and knowing that regardless of the position, regardless of the title, once you’re hired, we give you all the training you need to succeed. Not somehow. We think that you should magically already have all of that training. And that makes you the perfect candidate because the folks who would have had historical like jobs before that also use the same tools. Like all of those things are filtering towards the most privileged people. When you let go of all those expectations and say no, Like, we wanna hire great people who care about our work. And once you’re hired, well, make sure you’re successful. Like who wouldn’t want to work in that environment? A. And B, you’re opening it up for anyone, regardless of what their past jobs, maybe, or what tools those other nonprofits use. Like they could have great experience with databases just because that organization used a different one. You know that that shouldn’t preclude someone from getting a job.

[00:23:03.94] spk_1:
So let’s let’s flush this out more and and explore more. Uh, and I guess, I mean, I feel like I’m playing Devil’s Advocate. I didn’t intend to, but the

[00:23:04.37] spk_0:
devil doesn’t need an advocate. E think the devil’s okay? You just ask what you want to ask

[00:23:51.44] spk_1:
you. Uh, and the report, the guide is, um, even drills down to like, operating systems. You know that. Why would you have to say, Why do you need to say familiarity with or or proficient with the Microsoft Suite, Microsoft Office Suite of Tools? You know, because you could you could train that. I guess I’m thinking a little higher level a college degree college degree. So I’ve, you know, I’ve had this conversation with other guests to it might have even been Raj. Um, so this isn’t the first time, but it’s been a while. Yeah, a college degree. There’s certain skills and expertise that’s presumed from a college degree. So let’s not quibble about whether you know one college degree has means that the person can write and read and speak articulately and different. College degree means it doesn’t. That means they can’t. It doesn’t necessarily mean that. Let’s just assume that there’s that there’s a certain skill and expertise level and

[00:24:17.48] spk_0:
eso can you just skills.

[00:24:18.73] spk_1:
I mean, can you just commemorate the skills that you need without having to say you have to have a college degree to have acquired them?

[00:24:25.84] spk_0:
Right? Totally Skills E. I think that there is

[00:24:29.56] spk_1:
advocate really just flushing it out. So

[00:26:25.14] spk_0:
on there is a time and place. You’re saying you have this specific degree or specific certification because the job you’re applying for is a mental health worker, and you need to be certified in our state social work that keep those instances very specific and very separate from we’re hiding, hiring a communications director. We’re hiring a program manager. What does a college degree make or break for that role? Like I have a bachelor’s degree in literature like I in creative writing and I am the CEO of the technology organization. Like what? What’s the correlation there like? Yes, I’m very proficient at writing emails, but that’s not because I have an English degree. You know, like just name, name those skills. And I think it can also be very. I think organizations try to equate the tiered education system with their organizational tear. So they are reliant internally on a very archaic, perfect pyramid shaped or chart. And so they’re thinking, Well, if we’re gonna hire anyone you know in that leadership tier of the triangle, whether it’s see sweeter, you know, directors, whatever their title structure, as then those folks need to have like a master’s thio. Others people have, you know, only a bachelor. Why, I would argue someone who spent even longer in school versus out in the community or in the work force has less personal expertise, right, because they haven’t been doing it. So to try and like map to that, you know, and that then rolls into Well, then who gets those jobs? Also gets paid more because that work structure is also reliant on saying that people a different titles make a different amount of money

[00:26:38.43] spk_1:
forces the privilege of having

[00:26:40.78] spk_0:
exactly, exactly, exactly, it’s just a permanent circle. You know,

[00:26:47.14] spk_1:
some of the details like providing money for Internet connections, not assuming that people can afford that giving technology, not expecting it to exist when it’s required for work.

[00:27:08.22] spk_0:
Those things have certainly come up with these air like these are so many

[00:27:22.84] spk_1:
things that air sort of innocuous. I mean, like like asking for a college degree. It z well, it’s become so commonplace. Everybody has a cell phone. Everybody can afford Internet and high speed WiFi. But another of those things are true. So

[00:27:36.54] spk_0:
and and just because one has a phone that you have a staff of 10 people and all people when they were hired said they had a smartphone. What smartphone they have, what data plan they have, what, how many minutes they have, even like what functionality is available for That type of phone is probably not the same, and the idea that it’s just on them to use their personal phone. If there’s something that you you need someone to use, then you need to give it to them. We can’t operate in this world where whatever you personally already had or invested in is going to make or break your professional success. That’s that’s not going toe ever end inequitable way

[00:28:19.94] spk_1:
data, data usage you touched on it and you start to touch on the collection part. And while you were talking about collection, I was thinking about the individual questions that you ask, Do you have quickly binary male female? First of all, you need to even ask Do the gender matter. And But how? How narrow are the choices that you’re offering in that lots of other places. What do you What do you want to say about data?

[00:29:10.44] spk_0:
I feel like data is so tricky for organizations, you know, it’s It’s something that I think from, you know, a decade of the greater sector, talking about how organizations need to be data driven and data informed, and you know what data do you have? And you know, there’s just been such a focus in in a kind of a more FIC way that nonprofits need to really care about Jada, that they now really care about data. They don’t know why they care about it or necessarily, like what to do about it. There isn’t.

[00:29:18.64] spk_1:
Well, they’re gonna

[00:29:19.08] spk_0:
mind data practice,

[00:29:21.04] spk_1:
get a lot of data, and then we’re gonna mine it

[00:30:40.24] spk_0:
on. Then we’re gonna use We’re gonna upload it all into this like a I machine, and it’s gonna tell us who’s going to donate to us, who’s going to do whatever. Who’s gonna come to our programs? Yeah, but I think the very first piece, I would say, is not just acknowledging but truly accepting and making all of your decisions around data from the perspective that it is not yours. It is each of those people’s data and you, for a temporary amount of time, have access to it. If that is the place where you can make your decisions from that, you need to be doing everything in your power to protect it. To Stuart it to make sure they know what data you have that it’s clean and updated. Your your relationship to that data changes. And I think even just in that relationship change will get organizations on a better path, you know. And then once you’re in that mindset, it’s so obvious to say, Well, of course, those people should be controlling their data and able to edit it at any time or request that we delete it, you know, and don’t keep the record anymore, like you kind of roll out from there so many of the things that are in the guides just because it’s obvious. Once you have the mindset that it’s not your data,

[00:30:48.70] spk_1:
you know they own it, they own.

[00:31:16.84] spk_0:
And if it’s, there’s of course, you shouldn’t just offer binary options on gender or anything else, right, because you don’t know it’s not your data, so you can’t have already decided what the option is. You know, I think that mindset shift really influences a lot and open the door for you to say, Hey, the outcomes of this program aren’t ours to decide. Participants benefiting from our programs and service is actually get to decide what the outcome of that program was for

[00:31:31.04] spk_1:
them. Yes, that was a very interesting winning the guide that that who sets the metrics for success? What is success in our program or programs. What is it? How is it defined? Right, right,

[00:31:52.74] spk_0:
which I don’t think is is far from ideas that you have certainly thought about whether or not they’re They’re super like widely accepted now, But even in fundraising, right that like someone participating in that in a fundraise e or ah, donation relationship with you like you don’t necessarily have to say. Okay, well, your donating $10 and it’s specifically going to this, But what kind of thank you they want? What kind of recognition they want isn’t for you necessarily to decide it’s Do you want to be recognized? Do you want to be acknowledged? You know? So I think once we remember that as organizations, we are essentially the facilitators of change making. We’re not the ones who owned the data. Who owned the program? Who owned the success, who owned the impact? Like we let go of essentially a lot of a lot of pressure. Teoh be like fortune tellers or something and and future tellers and instead say, we’re facilitating this program. These participants air coming through and look, they’re like five different outcomes that were achieved. And it’s great not every single person had one outcome. They liked it in the same way. They’re gonna use it in the same way, like it’s all humans that were interacting with. And we need to We need to bring back that human focusing.

[00:33:15.84] spk_1:
This is related to funding. So you have a whole. You have several ideas for funders to think about to act on. What do you want to say to our institutional funders?

[00:33:18.74] spk_0:
Uh, you do have some work to dio

[00:33:54.14] spk_1:
time for our last break dot drives dot drives Engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives is the simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. It’s customizable, collaborative, intuitive. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. You know what we’ve got we’ve got but loads more time for tech equity.

[00:36:06.83] spk_0:
I think funders air in a tricky spot because not on Lee do all of the same Inequitable outcomes happen as faras using technology like there’s still a kind of non profit using technology and doing work, so they’ve got, like, all of that section of work to Dio, and they also have the relationship where they are investing in the sector. There’s there’s some shifts that I think need to happen there, especially for funders who are saying that they don’t invest in technology, not investing in technology. Like I think the last six months have shown what has happened to a sector that has been chronically under resourced and technology, and when a lot of organizations or getting donations or grants, that’s a You can’t use this on technology. Guess what? The outcome of that ISS the last six months. It is organizations who cannot continue to function, who I’ve already started closing their divorce, who cannot transition programs online and don’t know don’t have the internal capacity to do that. So we we just can’t any longer have grants that say, you can’t use this on technology like you can’t have a program without the database that stores all the participants in it. Why would the grant for that program not include the database? Right? It’s just ridiculous. Thes air these air, the necessary tools for programs success. They have to be part of every gram on dhe. I think the other piece that we’ve seen, We’re gonna We’ve seen funders try even just over the last number of years. And during the pandemic is we have solved this for you. We’ve chosen the tool, or we’ve chosen the consultant. And now, if you apply for this grant, what you actually get is for free. We’re going to give you this product that we, as the thunder have decided that you all will use. Or we’ve paid for this consultant who’s gonna go set this thing up for all of you. Why in any world would that be a successful strategy? You know, a single technology be known in advance to be the right tool for all this?

[00:36:17.45] spk_1:
Sounds like something that a company would do. And it would be more for a ZX the guy brings out. It would be more for visibility. That impact, right? If

[00:36:25.37] spk_0:
it’s such an easy route, right, its

[00:36:27.80] spk_1:
ability is your goal. Then that’s the I mean, I’m giving an answer to your rhetorical question,

[00:36:47.33] spk_0:
right? I mean, it’s honestly, like a lazy way to approach capacity building. You’re not accepting that there’s nuance in any of this work and that there would be differences and needs and you’re just saying like Here’s here’s one giant hammer. I hope it works for all of your work sites by you

[00:36:57.13] spk_1:
know, what about for technology creators? Way said earlier. Non profit could be. It could very well be a builder of technology as well.

[00:38:10.72] spk_0:
Mhm. Yeah, there are. I think it’s more common than, you know. Maybe the broader us really thinks about how many nonprofits are building technology because it may not even be technology that they sell, or even that they share or distribute. It could just be technology that they built for themselves to do something. But all the same kind of guidelines apply. You know, how are you building tools for unending use or an end community and not including those people in the process? There’s There’s just no way that it’s going that you could never assume it’s gonna work for those folks if those folks are not part of the process. Um, that doesn’t mean you need to have you know, 50 different people trying to be in the code on your website or something that you know, we’re not. We’re not saying that, but there are plenty of ways to include folks in scoping out what you’re gonna build testing it, piloting it, um, you know, making it over time. And the more of those folks that are included, the better the product will be. And and in the world of technology, I mean, success equals adoption. So if you really want it to be adopted, you really want people to successfully use it. Then you better be including them so that when it gets to them, it does work, and it is what they needed to be. Andi, I think

[00:40:12.86] spk_1:
I was talking about this in the early 19 eighties when when I was when I was getting the degree that I don’t use, which is from Carnegie Mellon degree, uh, information systems. I asked Economics and Information system, and we had to develop a creative build a project our fourth year. Our our senior project course was an inventory control system for the maintenance and Facilities Department. So we brought the users in who were not I mean, these guys. This is the guy who runs the inventory room, right? College degree. He wasn’t even white, but he was gonna be the he was gonna be. He’s one of the prime users. We were building this for it was a bunch of white. Mostly, I don’t know if it was mostly male, probably probably Waas, but this mostly male white group, you know, bringing this thing this man of color in tow help teach us how he does his job and how what we’re scoping out is going to impact his his work life on and teaching us, you know, teaching. But so we were talking about this in 1984 you know, bringing users. And that’s just the end user. There’s also the people who are entering data maybe not as users, but or not as recurring users, but as new users as benefit from your program as they check in for the meal or the overnight stay or the bag of uh huh of food. You know what, so right, Inclusive e. I mean, it was just called inclusive design,

[00:41:47.81] spk_0:
right? And how do you compensate those people? How do you acknowledge those people? How do you give them actual power in the process? You know, like again if we if we think about this as we’re just here as the facilitators of this work then it is clear that they should have our They should be able to influence our plans. You know, this isn’t just for the sake of saying we had some user group come in and five of five people and they gave us the feedback. You know, like, this isn’t This isn’t to check the box. This is to say, Hey, we’re the facilitators of change of the process and we’re here for you. So, like, let’s find the path. And I think, of course, that’s, like, so counter and scary to the old white dominant way of managing technology managing organizations, you know, Why would you ever give up control willingly? But I guess I’d argue. Like, what control do you really think you have? You know, like the idea that you’re giving up control. Well, right now, if you’re really trying to, like, hold everything in and make every decision internal. Are you having a tonic success? Like, have you met your mission? Is your mission all done like I don’t know that it’s something you really need to try and hold on to. Because if you can be far more centered on the community, you also have the benefit of Of likely accelerating that impact and more, more rapidly meeting your mission. Right? Because

[00:42:32.30] spk_1:
another word for controllers power. You’re giving up your surrendering power, which which so many people think you know, it’s it’s zero sum. So whatever I lose, you know, whatever I give up, I don’t have any more. But that’s like that’s like finding time. Well, you find the time. No, you make the time. Otherwise the time Or, you know, uh, you know, it’s time. It’s it’s a It’s the same abstract concept. It, um So the surrender of power, they and I would even hesitate to say the delegation of power. But it’s because then it’s

[00:42:36.73] spk_0:
just acknowledging that actually, these other bodies,

[00:42:40.35] spk_1:
these other, like I’m making a sign of across I give you power,

[00:42:44.40] spk_0:
right? No, it’s it’s just technology that everyone already had power. It was just power. You denied before. And now you’re saying, Oh, I’m gonna like actually listen to that You’re not getting ready of any of yours. You’re just technology that everyone else also has power on dhe. What does it look like? All work together and put all of that power towards the same direction.

[00:43:06.77] spk_1:
And then, you know, sometimes you hear well, that’ll be anarchy because they’ll be Everybody will have all

[00:43:13.96] spk_0:
the same power jurisdiction. So

[00:43:38.00] spk_1:
you know, your ruled by Antifa? Uh, that was purely sarcastic. Uh, no. I mean the the authority is still gonna be recognized. It’s not like it’s not like by by giving voice to other folks, you’re no longer the CEO of intent or, you know, you’re no longer people don’t no longer recognize you as the chair of the board. It’s not. It’s not that way. It’s not anarchy. It’s tze just inclusivity,

[00:44:40.39] spk_0:
right? I mean, if you’ve always relied on defining your job, is the CEO as being the only one allowed to make decisions? A. You probably put a ton of pressure on yourself. Be You were likely never the best person to make those decisions. So were they ever that great? Anyway, you know, it’s like remember, you’re just the facility. You’re the facilitator. Is the CEO of your organization being successful? That doesn’t mean you make all the decisions. It means you’re the facilitator. You make sure the right staff were making decisions or the right community members got to be part of things like let go of again. It’s not the power or the control. Just let go of these really outdated definitions of who we need to be in these roles so that we can get out of the way of all of this inequity, right? Like, create or make that space so that people are in this work together because then it’s gonna be better work.

[00:44:56.19] spk_1:
Yeah. Get out of the way of the inequity. No! Get out of the way of the equity. Out of the way you want. You want to stand out of the way so that equity can come through? Yes. Don’t want to get out of the way of the inequity.

[00:45:04.83] spk_0:
Car

[00:45:05.87] spk_1:
inequity would prevail. You want to get out of the way of the equity? Alright, stand clear and the equity will emerge. Okay. Um So what else? Let’s let’s start to wrap up. What else you wanna tell us about the report? That the guide, the guide? I’m sorry. The guy that we didn’t talk about, I

[00:46:16.78] spk_0:
think the thing that I would love to say is, you know, it’s all, um it’s all it’s all practice, right? Like you’re not going toe. Read anything in the guide and have it be like word for word, something you copy paste. And now that’s your policy or anything else. And yeah, and also there’s nothing in there that you’ll that you’ll, you know, be directed or inspired to put forward in your organization. That’s gonna be like quote unquote right the first time. Because there is There is no right on Lee Path in this work, and it’s really committing Thio, the practice of of focusing on equity and trying Thio identify and make clear where they’re inequitable outcomes so that you can again practice how to get to a better place on dhe. In that vein, you know, the working group isn’t done. The working group is still the working group. They are excited to continue working together to find places to add or adjust things in the guide. And we really, really want to hear from organizations who read the guide and, you know, try and do something in their organization with it. They, you know, have ah, internal committee that looks at these ideas and tries to make recommendations or whatever. Like if you try and use this guide. Let us know. Let us know how it goes. If if you’ve got things that you wanna share, we gladly publish them on the in 10. Um, you know, publish an article from you on the intense site. Um, you know, whether it was, like, a learning process or something, that well, whatever it is, we really just want to hear from folks that are using it so that we can find, you know, is there more that we could put in here to help you translate this into your work? Is there Are there places that you’re finding? Ah, lot of challenge that we could address with more guidelines. You know, um, And if you’re really into this and you want to join the working group, you can also let us know, and we’ll just add you to the working group. And you could be part of this work as well. So ultimately, just go use it. Read it, share it with your funders, share it with the vendors you’re considering buying technology from, you know, and be in conversation with us, so that we can kind of learn from how you do it.

[00:48:03.17] spk_1:
And the report explicitly asks for folks to join the working group. Your email AMIA 10 10 or GE.

[00:48:05.77] spk_0:
Yep. So yeah, email me in time.

[00:48:24.94] spk_1:
Did you want me? Oh, you want Meteo? You want me to blank out your email address? No, you don’t mind, folks have no. Yeah, right. Okay. Thank you. Brava! Brava! Uh, in your simple word and 10.

[00:48:26.77] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for elevating this and helping us share it with more folks.

[00:49:31.17] spk_1:
Absolutely a pleasure on Thank you for doing it. Thank you for helping me. Thank you for helping next week Volunteer engagement and artists. Sunday. Yes. There’s someone taking over looking to take over the Sunday after Thanksgiving for artists. Artists Sunday were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Raise more money. Changed more lives. Tony dot mus slash dot for a free demo and a free month. Ah, creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

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[00:00:57.60] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the unlearned. 95%. I’m your aptly named host. That live music can only mean one thing our 5/100 show. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I did get slapped with a diagnosis of Corretta Conus. If I saw that you missed today’s show the 5/100 it’s non profit radios, 10th Anniversary and 5/100 show. It’s also our last live stream. After today, we’re gonna be podcast only to celebrate all these milestones. We’ve got the whole gang together. Claire Meyerhoff are creative Producer is co hosting. We’ve got the live music from Scott Stein, composer of our theme music. Each of our esteemed contributors will be with us. Jean Takagi, Maria Simple and Amy Sample Ward, and we have a bunch of surprises.

[00:01:44.64] spk_2:
Our 5/100 show is sponsored by Cure Coffee connecting coffee lovers with coffee farmers and their families. Kira coffee dot com. We are also sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Visit tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial. And we are also sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn Hyson to dot co. That’s turned hyphen two dot co.

[00:01:50.24] spk_1:
That professional voice can only be one. It’s clear. Meyerhoff. Claire Meyerhoff, Welcome,

[00:02:01.24] spk_2:
tony-martignetti. This is the first time for us on Zoom. But I feel like you’re right here because you’re right there on my laptop.

[00:02:14.71] spk_1:
It feels it feels close. Yeah, Every every anniversary show has been, ah, in the studio. This one, of course, can’t be. But we pull it together because it’s the 10th anniversary and I’m grateful to you because you’ve been creative producer of this show since, like Episode one before that Episode zero You were creative producer.

[00:02:20.81] spk_2:
Yeah, about a little over 10 years ago, you and I had a dinner and you said, You know

[00:02:24.64] spk_5:
what I want to do. I want

[00:02:25.37] spk_2:
to do a radio show and I said, Do

[00:02:27.19] spk_5:
you have any idea how hard it is to do a radio show? And you’re like, No, I don’t care. I’m doing a radio

[00:02:32.22] spk_2:
show. Will you help

[00:02:33.62] spk_5:
me? And

[00:02:33.97] spk_2:
I said, sure. And here We are 10 years

[00:02:38.63] spk_1:
old playing love it, love it and you have that professional radio training to so that. But also

[00:02:43.96] spk_2:
I have a background in radio

[00:02:45.39] spk_1:
indeed, indeed. So how have you been? How are you managing what’s going on at the PG agency?

[00:02:51.53] spk_2:
Well, you know, I help. I help nonprofits of all shapes and sizes with their plan giving. And so that’s been fun. And I’ve been honing some of my skills at home like learning GarageBand and some different things that I didn’t have time to learn before. So that’s been that’s been quite interesting of a few new little endeavors, and I have some nice clients. It’s been interesting because I started out 2020 with this list of five clients I was working with, and then all of a sudden in March, like it all just changed and some went away, and one that was like a little project turned into now, like my main client, because they were in a different situation. So it’s really shown us sort of the fluidity of things in the nonprofit

[00:03:31.95] spk_1:
world. Well, that’s very gratifying. They love your work so much that they brought you in to do more.

[00:03:38.24] spk_2:
Yes, well, they had they had more need, and then other people had less less need and less money. So, um, I like more. More money and more need. That’s always That’s always good. When you’re independent person like we are,

[00:03:49.44] spk_1:
money follows expertise. That that’s you. And you. Um hey, Scott’s dying. How you been? I’m good. How are you, tony? Oh, fabulously Scott Stein, of course. The composer of cheap red wine, which you’ll be performing shortly. What’s been going on musically for you since, uh, late march?

[00:04:37.11] spk_3:
Uh um, Well, it’s certainly been a little slower than usual, as you can imagine is not a whole lot in the way of live music. Um, but finding ways to stay busy. Um, I teach and said my teaching it just has just gone online. Um, I have a couple of choirs that I conduct, and we are finding new and creative ways to stay active and stay connected and keep making music online. Ah, we all miss each other very much, but this is a good way to stay connected and, um, actually doing a couple of gigs here and there, mostly via zoom occasionally have been able to do an outdoor, socially distanced concert, Um, doing one a week from Sunday in Brooklyn, where I live, and, um so that’s always good. It’s just it’s just you just have to stay busy and stay active and and And that that keeps you motivated keeps you moving

[00:05:01.47] spk_1:
the online concerts. That sounds like an interesting idea. Yeah,

[00:05:10.88] spk_3:
it Ah, it works. You know, Um, it’s, um I think it’s probably gonna be with us for for a while, and but

[00:05:14.84] spk_5:
it’s, you know,

[00:05:47.00] spk_3:
it’s a nice way to play. It is a little weird. You finish a song and you’re used to hearing some sort of a pause and you just hear nothing. And so I mean, you hear you see people on mute clapping. It’s very And also when you banter, that’s the thing. Like, you know, we try to keep things light. And if you make a comment that you think it’s funny and you don’t get a response, it’s like I don’t know that was funny or not. I have no idea. I’ll just assume it was It’s strange, but it’s ah, you know, it keeps us making music, and that’s you know that’s the main thing right now.

[00:06:34.57] spk_1:
I attended a couple of online stand up comedy shows, Onda 1st 1 The producer kept this audience muted because he was afraid that people would be charming, intimate. But that was very disruptive to the comics to not know your I’ve done some some stand up, not to the caliber that these folks have, but you’re playing to the audience when the audience, when the laughter starts to subside, you know, you start talking, you don’t you don’t want a dead zone of no laughter, you know, and you got a time it. But they couldn’t do that because they don’t have the feedback. So but the producer learned, and then all the other shows. You know, the audience has been un muted, and they’ve been respectful and no hecklers. But it’s important for that. That feedback, you know, for a comic, just like you’re saying for a musician to get feedback.

[00:06:46.34] spk_3:
Yeah, And the best part about about doing this via Zoom though, is you do get a heckler. You can mute that person. Yes, you can. You can do that in a club. So? So there is that advantage. The

[00:06:57.07] spk_1:
equivalent would be like cutting off their head or having having I think security bounce there bounced their ass out, right? Yeah, In a live setting,

[00:07:05.47] spk_3:
it’s It’s a much less it requires a lot less aggression to just hit mute. Yeah, I kinda like that.

[00:07:20.24] spk_1:
Claire, did you do any any, um, performances by type, like your You void with that professional voice of yours, you have a podcast.

[00:07:21.77] spk_2:
I do have. I have a new podcast and I’ll be happy to chat a little bit about it. And that’s appropriate because the name of my podcast is charitable chitchat with Cathy and Claire

[00:07:34.91] spk_1:
considerations as much as I do. Well,

[00:07:36.54] spk_5:
it all works out

[00:08:23.10] spk_2:
cause it’s also Cathy with a C and clear with the sea. So we really like all our C. So I do it with with my friend and colleague Kathy Sheffield from Fort Worth, Texas, and she’s a very experienced, planned giving person, and she and I have talked about doing it for a while. And then when Cove it hit, we said, Well, we have no excuse. So I learned how to do garage band and record stuff, and I do all the editing and production, and Kathy and I do a podcast and it’s planned, giving focused. And each episode we have one guest, and we’ve had some awesome guests on from the California Community Foundation and North Well, Health Um, Nature Conservancy and a wonderful volunteer from the Girl Scouts of America who’s helped bring their plan giving program in less than 10 years from 400 plan giving donors to 4000. Yeah, nine years, so very successful programs. So we have a lot of great shows coming up, and, uh, it’s charitable. Should check dot com with Cathy and Claire.

[00:08:34.27] spk_1:
Is that that’s Is that what prompted the GarageBand learning that you talked about?

[00:08:43.04] spk_2:
Yes, it definitely prompted the GarageBand learning, and I had plenty of time to learn that. And, you know, I have a production background, but I had never worked with GarageBand, so some of it was intuitive and others. I was looking all over YouTube for tutorials and found some really helpful things. And hey, if I can do it, anybody can do it. So it’s It’s been a lot of fun, and it’s, you know, it’s nice to have a new project during Cove it because there’s nothing new, right? It’s like the same same house, Same different day.

[00:09:05.24] spk_1:
I did something similar. Other and audacity.

[00:09:07.64] spk_2:
Well, that’s great. Yeah, Audacity is a great A

[00:09:29.43] spk_1:
comparable GarageBand s. I knew so little about audacity when I started. I was ready to write a big check. I figured this is such a popular program app. It must be like 200 or 250 bucks. And that’s how little I knew about it. It’s free. Yes, audacity is absolutely. But I didn’t know that’s how little I knew. Right now I’ve gotten familiar with it.

[00:09:30.72] spk_2:
Well, there’s a lot to do when you learn like podcasting on your own. There isn’t sort of one solution out there That’s kind of like, Oh, the podcasting solution. No, you have to like, you have to record your interview on something like Zoom and get that into an MP three. Then you jump that into GarageBand or audacity. You cut that up, you add your music. That’s another situation, and then you have to up. I uploaded to Buzz Sprout after I’ve produced it, and then from Bud Sprout, you have to subscribe to the different service is like apple podcasts and Spotify and I heart radio and do that and and then you do it over and over, and it’s It’s a lot. It really is a lot to learn. There is a learning curve with do it yourself podcasting.

[00:10:21.69] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, You said you said you bring in the music. Let’s let’s bring in the music. Hey, Scott, remind us. Cheap red wine. Now, this is Ah, been our theme song for many years at ATTN. Non profit radio. Remind me the genesis of rind us the genesis of cheap red wine, please. And then and then play it for us.

[00:11:10.94] spk_3:
Sure. Ah, song Ah, I recorded it on a record back in 2009 record called Jukebox, and I’d wrote it probably about a year before that. Um, I like to describe this is coming from my angry young man phase. You wouldn’t know it from maybe from listening to it, but ah, yeah, I was. I was living, um, on the Upper West Side of Manhattan and, um, social circles that Iran in when I wasn’t playing, which was to say, my roommate’s friends Ah, there was a lot of people who worked in law and Finance. And I think they didn’t know quite what to make of me. They didn’t kind of understand that you could play music for a living, and, um and so and it’s also a big single scene up there. And I was single at the time, and I got a little cynical because I sort of felt like I was just in the wrong profession to be dating. So this some kind of grew out of that? Um I will add that I have been happily married for seven years now with, uh, with a wonderful son. So it all worked out, but anyway, so that’s where the song kinda had its origins.

[00:11:34.88] spk_1:
Alright, Please, Scott Stein. Cheap red wine.

[00:14:43.24] spk_0:
Just keep on talking sooner or later off around. What you mean a TV screen way in each other? You know, I used to find a charming can hands now promise diamonds. They won’t tired of the cut of clothing that I will wear good stuff too easily distracted. Teoh, I got too many options, so I’m gonna My goodness. But maybe you have some competition with radio. A wealthy man. I got used promises on the way for Heaven’s national victor Sound. Nobody else. No way You used a charming but

[00:14:45.88] spk_2:
I can’t

[00:14:46.43] spk_5:
think

[00:14:49.46] spk_0:
how. Never mind it.

[00:14:50.32] spk_5:
Don’t matter now

[00:14:56.71] spk_0:
Your time promises.

[00:16:03.74] spk_1:
I love that song, Scott. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks. There’s nobody waiting in line. We’re just, like, cheap red wine. Thank you. I love it.

[00:16:07.77] spk_3:
I I remembered those lyrics

[00:16:14.04] spk_1:
I don’t worry about that happens. So, Claire, I got this. I got some new venture planned giving accelerator

[00:16:19.38] spk_2:
s. It sounds very, very exciting.

[00:16:21.78] spk_1:
You in the plan? Giving space. So, yes,

[00:16:23.44] spk_2:
I am

[00:16:31.68] spk_1:
in the, uh, arena of shameless self promotion. Uh, okay. Planned giving accelerator. It’s, um it’s a membership community. I launched it two weeks ago. Nonprofits joined for an annual membership on, and I will teach them everything I know about starting and then growing. Yes, Land giving programs.

[00:16:45.73] spk_2:
That sounds great. So is it a month? Do people come on a webinar monthly or how do what do What do people get for their yearly subscription? How does that look to the to the non profit person hoping to grow their plane giving program?

[00:17:04.08] spk_1:
No, I hadn’t thought through that? No, they, uh, like tony get we’re gonna have ah, got

[00:17:05.89] spk_5:
a nice

[00:17:08.43] spk_1:
poster. There’s exclusive. Yes, there were exclusive webinars. We’ll probably get to a month. Will be exclusive podcasts. One or two of those a month. I’ll be doing small group asked me anything. Sessions on zoom Very nine. Talk through individual potential donor challenges, Suspect challenges or Doctor, you’re marking materials in their small groups. Um, there’s a Facebook community. Very nice. All exclusive, Just two members. It all kicks off. October 1st 1st group starts October 1st, and that’s what we’re promoting for. And it’s that planned giving accelerator dot com.

[00:18:07.44] spk_2:
Well, there’s a lot of Nate out there. A lot of non profits are not in the plan giving game or in the playing giving space. They think it’s too scary. They need technical knowledge. They can’t do it. They need too much staff, whatever. But frankly, any non profit can do something with plan giving and bring in those all important planned gifts. Also, I think you’ll be helping to educate people about like asking for non cash assets and things as well, like how toe you know, do more a little bit more complex gift giving.

[00:18:25.51] spk_1:
We will eventually we’re going to start off with getting bequests, Yes, but there’s only the whole groundwork. As you’re suggesting, there’s old groundwork that’s got to go before you start. Before you start promoting, you gotta promote to the right people on. Then give them the right message.

[00:18:43.84] spk_2:
Yes, and you have to have a back end. That’s the first thing that I help my clients with. It’s like, Well, what did they have? Do they even have information on their website? Like some plate people have nothing on their website and in, um, our most recent episode of our of our charitable chitchat podcast. We had a great this volunteer from the Girl Scouts, and she got started because she had updated her estate plans about 10 years ago, and she included the Girl Scouts. And then she happened to be in New York City not long after that, where the headquarters are. So she went to go meet with the development person, just a drop off like a copy of her, whatever her paperwork and the development person wasn’t there. So she met with the CEO and she sat down with the CEO and she said, Well,

[00:19:09.89] spk_5:
you know, I was updating my estate

[00:19:11.77] spk_2:
plans and I went to go find someone for

[00:19:13.81] spk_5:
I couldn’t find any information

[00:19:38.64] spk_2:
on your website about that. Why is that? And the CEO was like, I don’t know why. And then they from there they created a whole good, great plan giving programs. So, you know, the back end is first off. You need to have some information on your website. You need a dedicated page with some request language with your contact information with your tax I d. Just a couple of things. And if you have that Web page, then you can start getting in the plan giving game.

[00:19:40.37] spk_1:
That’s the beginning. And that’s the kind of stuff we’re gonna be talking about. Easy promotion.

[00:19:44.49] spk_2:
You gotta get in

[00:20:01.38] spk_1:
identifying the right people to promote to and giving them the right message and how to do that. And then how to follow up how to talk to your board about planned to give an all important, all all to get planned giving program started in the audience that I’m always most interested in. Small and midsize shot

[00:20:12.57] spk_2:
Me, too. I love I love the small nonprofits and there’s you anyone can get started in plan giving. So I think that your program is is really great, because if if you have, don’t your small non profit you have donors and they’re gonna leave. Some charities in there will, but they’re not gonna leave your charity in their will if you’ve never promoted the idea. And you’ve never communicated the idea

[00:20:25.96] spk_1:
absolutely right that absolutely, you need to be asking. So we

[00:20:28.95] spk_2:
need to be asking

[00:20:32.04] spk_1:
if you’re ready to get plan giving Started, Planned Giving accelerator

[00:20:33.77] spk_2:
call. Well, I’m looking forward to seeing the evolution of of this, and I think it’s a great it’s much needed in the space, and I think you’ll be successful and help a lot of people along the way. And that’s that’s what we’re all about. Helping helping nonprofits, especially the little ones,

[00:21:09.74] spk_1:
and someone who’s helping me toe promote planned giving accelerator is is with us. These Peter Panda Pento is part of a partner in turn to communications just renewed their sponsorship for a second year, which we are very grateful for. I’m very grateful for Peter. Welcome to the show. Great to be here, tony. Great to be back

[00:21:13.06] spk_4:
here. Tony, we’ve been checking in very regularly over the years. Excited to be part of this milestone episode.

[00:21:29.48] spk_1:
Oh, thank you. Yes, 500 shows. 10 years on. I’m grateful for your sponsorship. You and your partner, Scott turn to what? What? What’s on your, uh, what’s on your plate these days? We’re doing a

[00:22:07.83] spk_4:
lot of media relations work these days. A lot of nonprofits and foundations that we work with are really looking for to try to break through the clutter right now and get their stories told in the media, which is a really challenging thing right now during Cove in 19. I mean, it’s always challenging, but right now we have so many media outlets that are, um, operating with with furloughed staffs and with people kind of playing out of position, covering different beats. And, ah, nonprofits are really looking for extra support and trying to figure out who they need to connect with, how they can connect with them and how they can connect what they’re doing to the prevailing story lines of our time, which are Cove in 19 and racial justice and equity. And so we’ve been spending a lot of our efforts there, in addition to working with you on the plane, giving accelerator and other things tell

[00:22:33.19] spk_1:
indeed, yes, challenging times indeed, to get your voice heard. But it’s doable. As I say in the sponsor messages. You know, if you if you have those relationships with journalists, if you have the right hook, you can you can be heard even in the in the Corona virus cacophony.

[00:23:06.21] spk_4:
Absolutely, absolutely. And the relationships are really important. And, um, what I think a lot of nonprofits and really all organizations still make. The mistake in doing is thinking they can kind of spray and pray their way to, ah, success with media relations by spray and pray Amin kind of spraying out press releases to everybody and hope and praying that somebody picks it up. What really works is when you have some relationships with journalists who really cover the topics you care about and that they’re actually thinking of you when they’re looking for sources rather than the other way around.

[00:23:12.07] spk_2:
Yes, and as a former reporter, I wholeheartedly agree, because back in the day, as a as a news reporter for working in all news radio and working in television. You would get these, like, spray and pray, kind of like press releases and stuff that had nothing to do with anything you normally cover. And you know, you really need a more targeted approach and build a relationship. And I think nowadays it’s easy to build a relationship with news people because they’re all on Twitter and they’re all on Facebook and you can follow them and comment on their on their things and get to know them a little bit that way.

[00:23:41.84] spk_4:
Absolutely. I think investing in in a handful of those relationships and really trying to make sure you’re nurturing the journalists who actually care about what and and reach the people you need to reach. There’s so much value in doing that. You’re absolutely right.

[00:23:58.68] spk_1:
This and Peter, thank you again for your sponsorship of non profit radio.

[00:24:03.74] spk_4:
I love the partnership. I’m really glad to support her head, and I really believe strongly in what you do, tony. So we’re happy Teoh to be sponsors and to be part of this great community.

[00:24:13.75] spk_1:
Thanks so much. Turn hyphen to you. Want Check them you want? Check them out. Turn hyphen too dot ceo. Thanks so much, Peter.

[00:24:20.79] spk_4:
Thank you very

[00:26:11.18] spk_1:
much, Peter. Thanks, Claire. I have a story I want to read from from one of our listeners milled, uh, Mildred Devo. I’m the founder and executive director of Penn Parental, a small literary non profit that helps writers stay on creative track after they start a family. I got into non profit work because I had the idea for this collective of supportive writers running programs to defy the stereotype, which was rampant in nearly two thousands, that having kids would kill your creative career. I was already running a salon, Siri’s, that featured the diversity of work by writers who had kids. And I wanted to do more to prove to women and men that parenthood was just a life event and not an alternate alternate career. I self funded a fellowship for writers who were new parents and a lawyer approached me and asked if I had considered turning my ideas into a non profit I never had. She helped me pro bono. Now it is 10 years later, and pen parental has helped countless writers finish their creative projects despite the challenges of raising kids issues heightened to epic levels during the pandemic. We have one arts grants from New York City as well as New York State Council for the Arts. As a writer with two kids, it makes me laugh that all the encouragement I give to other writers has just now finally come home to my own career. I finally finished writing my first novel. I Want to Thank You. This is the touching Thank you so much. I want to thank you and and your non profit radio feel that inspiring. I feel that listening to recordings of past live streams, I’ve been exposed to some of the top minds working in non profit. Today. It’s like having an M B A in arts administration right at your fingertips, or at least the faculty of one. I’ve gained a lot by listening. So thank u s touching and, uh, milled, uh, milled is with us. Well, welcome to the show.

[00:26:18.21] spk_5:
Thanks. Thank you so much. It’s really exciting to be here. Did you see me taking notes?

[00:26:22.49] spk_1:
I was already took. I was like, clock town

[00:26:26.09] spk_2:
milled. I love milled his hair. That’s beautiful. Thank you. It looks very nice.

[00:26:54.44] spk_1:
That’s got beautiful bang. Great. Did I pronounce your name? Right? Okay. Have you been listening to non profit radio for a while? I have For forever. Yeah. Yeah, I frequently when I googled something that I don’t know, I will find a link, you know, on Facebook or somewhere, I’ll find a link to a show, and

[00:27:00.51] spk_6:
it s so it works like I don’t know, because I really, really, really learned

[00:28:37.84] spk_1:
this from the ground up, just sort of as I was doing it and Ah, yeah, it’s really so we’re gonna put on a plan giving page pretty much, yes, but it’s really it’s really wonderful that you bring all these experts together and when you interview them so so many of them are so generous with their time with their contact information, like it’s kind of spectacular, But I really kind of got into your show after you did the foundation center. I love the foundation center and motivated that can with them all their candid now candid. Well, they were there were the foundation center. You’re not wrong to call them that. They were that they were that back then when But for the you did I think four sessions or some Some amount of sessions, please. And you could go there and be a live audience, or you could watch it after it. So, yes, it was. It was non profit radio month at the Foundation Center and the Foundation Center month on non profit radio. That was very cool. Very cool partnership with the Roman. Thank you. I also like all the partnerships that you have with all the different companies. Like everybody said. Just what? Um, the guy that was just on Peter was saying that you develop these relationships. Well, I think I feel like I learned something from that from you. Outstanding Milton. That’s why I do the show. Thank you so much. So, for your for your generosity, do non profit radio and for sharing your how I got into nonprofits story we have Ah, we’re gonna send you a bag of cure coffee. Uh, I love coffee. Bring me coffee. It’s

[00:28:40.70] spk_2:
a wonderful prize. How you want to hear more about it? Cure a coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. With every cup of cura, you join our effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities are around the world. We are direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you creating organic smiles beyond the cup cure coffee dot com. And that is your prize. Thank

[00:29:22.78] spk_1:
you. Listen, thanks so much again for sharing your story and for being a loyal listener. Really? It’s touching. Thank you. It’s so kind of you. I’m really grateful. And I love how you’re Musician nodded when he when I talked about having kids at home and being creative. That’s why I run a non profit for that reaction. I

[00:29:26.56] spk_3:
e that so much? Yeah,

[00:29:30.78] spk_1:
creatives are trying to create. So anybody who wants to pin Prentice said word we’d love the Have you come and find out what we dio and thank you again. So much for having me on the

[00:29:40.42] spk_5:
show was a

[00:29:50.34] spk_1:
place. Enjoy your coffee. Yeah. Yes. Pen parental as got or thank you. Thanks along, Claire. You’re You’re creative. You you’ve been writing.

[00:30:56.94] spk_2:
Yes, I am. I am, I am. It’s a It’s a blessing and a curse being a creative person because the brain just never shuts off. So we’re always making stuff from a tender age. I was like sitting on my front lawn with a basket of crayons and my mother register like an old egg carton or something in a pipe cleaners. And before you know it, we had, like, costumes and putting on a show. So that’s that’s my childhood. So I have written for you a special 1/10 anniversary problem for non profit radio. So would you like me to read it? Toe. Okay, here we go. Let’s celebrate a decade of the show by tony-martignetti. Here’s my poem. It’s goofy, so you better get ready. Tony had an idea. Tony had a vision. Tony wanted a radio show, so he made a decision. He started his show. He booked his first guest. He worked on a format, and then all the rest production with Sam Music with Scott sponsors and quizzes Man, that’s a lot Top trends and Tony’s take to non profit radio We love you. 10 years later, and 500 shows your silver anniversary, your listener ship grows your tony-martignetti non profit radio top trends. Sound advice. Should I end this poem? Yes, that sounds nice. Happy anniversary, tony.

[00:31:13.55] spk_1:
Should I send this up our mess Sounds like Thank you. Clear my raf. Sweet. Thank you very much.

[00:31:18.82] spk_2:
You got in somewhere.

[00:31:20.32] spk_1:
What a creative. I love it. Thank

[00:31:21.94] spk_2:
you. You know, it’s fun. Thank you. Something to do? It’s coverted.

[00:31:24.34] spk_1:
That’s very sweet. I am not gonna keep doing things that silver anniversary. I don’t think I thought of that. That’s right. The silver silver anniversary. Well,

[00:31:31.63] spk_2:
you know, I was thinking of ideas. I was like, What can I do for tony? Silver anniversary. And I was like, I was like, Well, it is the silver anniversary. That’s 10 years. It’s silver. So maybe I should send him, like, an engraved set of silver candlesticks. Or maybe I’ll write him a poem.

[00:31:45.52] spk_1:
Well, you could do the candlesticks to know they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. What?

[00:31:59.08] spk_2:
Amy, like those? I could do like 11 Right. You could do it for your in Amy’s tent. That wins your 10th anniversary. Did you have it? You missed it. Yeah, I missed. Okay. We’ll catch on the next one.

[00:32:00.28] spk_1:
Catch me on this one. It’s not

[00:32:01.43] spk_2:
old. Wait for your gold wedding.

[00:32:08.99] spk_1:
Oh, no, no, no. Wait. Office engineering by mere numbers it, Z, I’m gonna send you

[00:32:13.50] spk_2:
something really funny.

[00:32:22.95] spk_1:
That silver gift. I will. Then the expensive silver gift. Don’t don’t be constrained by by the artificiality of numbers. So, you know,

[00:32:24.04] spk_2:
I’m gonna go to Bloomingdale’s and register you.

[00:33:04.44] spk_1:
We got we got all our all our contributors there. Will our esteemed contributors air here? Nice. Yes, Absolutely. I see. Um, I see them. Indeed. I see Amy Sample Ward, our social social media technology contributor, and Jean Takagi, of course, our legal contributor and the brains behind the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and Maria Simple, the Prospect Finder at the prospect finder dot com. Welcome, Maria. Gene and Amy. Welcome. Hey. Hey, there. Thank you very much, Amy. See also Amy, of course, besides being our contributor and technology and social media, CEO of N 10. I was intend doing. How you doing, Amy?

[00:33:14.94] spk_5:
Um, I’ve recently been answering that question by saying that I am alive and awake in 2020 and all that that means on

[00:33:24.57] spk_1:
being in Portland, Oregon, as well,

[00:33:26.23] spk_5:
being in Portland, Oregon being at the intersection of, I think, a lot of opportunity to positively change the world

[00:33:36.84] spk_1:
Well, you three have never been on a show altogether. So I want to say

[00:33:45.34] spk_5:
I know Jean and I have definitely been on at the same time before, but I don’t think all three of us

[00:33:56.54] spk_1:
no threat. No. All three have never So. Maria, meet Jean Jean Maria. Amy, meet Amy. Meet Maria Maria, Meet Amy. Gene already knows Amy. Amy knows Jean. Oh, meet each other. Welcome. Welcome. Hey,

[00:34:03.54] spk_6:
you know, tony, I had suggested a long time ago that you should fly us all into that New York studio at some point, and so

[00:34:10.82] spk_5:
we would not have fit altogether.

[00:34:12.98] spk_6:
Since you never did that way

[00:34:16.41] spk_1:
are fly you all to the beach Now it’s much, much safer down here.

[00:34:19.80] spk_6:
Yeah, well, until this coming storm, that is. But

[00:34:37.43] spk_1:
uh huh. Yeah, Well, not this weekend. Let’s not get carried away. Like cat seven or something. We’re not doing it this weekend. No, it’s not that bad. It’s Ah, it’s like a to the one that so far it’s a one or something. Some of it’s we live, you know, that’s that’s part of our life. Living at the beach hurricane season,

[00:34:41.46] spk_2:
coming straight to your house. Tony,

[00:35:05.25] spk_1:
I got I got a metal roof. They’re gonna finish tomorrow’s good metal. Rudy’s air. Great. Two days before the hurricane, they’re gonna finish my metal roof. What color is it? It’s Ah, it’s a gray. It’s a pale grey. Very nice. It z neutral, neutral tone. Nothing. Nothing outlandish like those Clay. You know, there’s red clay colored anything but getting to cocky. How are

[00:35:05.99] spk_5:
you

[00:37:07.47] spk_1:
doing? San Francisco? It’s Jean. I’m pretty. Well, all things considered Azamiyah kind of reference does. Well, a lot of folks hurting. So happy to. To be in good health with the my family is well and good to see all of you and congratulations, toe. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Gene. And your practice has been very busy of late as nonprofits. Ah, non profit struggle bit. Yeah, a lot. A lot to deal with, obviously the pandemic and a lot of racial equity movements, which is a very positive sign. So, like Amy and trying to see some of the the silver linings and what changes and re imaginations may come out of this indeed. Quite a bit. I was I was talking to somebody earlier today that Ah It’s a good time for introspection. No. And that maybe on an organizational level two. And it may be that it’s Ah, not all. It’s not all voluntary, but, you know, some things have been foisted on us, so it seems like a good, introspective time, like on an individual level. And on a organizational level two seen a lot of that. Yeah, Absolutely. Um, and, uh, I think it’s really helpful for organizational leaders to sort of get together and start to think, um, sort of back to basics and say, What’s why we hear? What are we doing? Who are we serving? What are we trying to do? And how are we really walking the walk and not just talking to talk? Yeah, for sure. Right back. Back to basics mission for important for the board to focus on. I love actually adding values to that as well. So just saying we further admission that the mission, of course, that that’s important. David. Mission focus. But I think it’s now equally important to be Valdez focused. What we stand for. Yeah, Amy. You feeling that it Ah, 10. 10.

[00:38:18.12] spk_5:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think just gonna extend what Jeanne was saying. I think we see a lot of organizations, at least historically, Um, who hide behind a mission statement that doesn’t name inequity. Of course, mission statements are often like aspirational where you’re going and like, why you exist and because it’s those things aren’t named. They use that to sidestep accountability to those issues, right? Like because racism isn’t named in their mission. They don’t have to talk about racism. And maybe they get to say that they don’t perpetuate any of it. Right on Dhe. Now, this moment kind of. I think what you’re alluding to tony with, like it being foisted upon folks, is people understanding or at least demanding, that organizations don’t get to sidestep that, that there’s no way any of our social missions could be advanced if we aren’t ever talking about racism, right? Like that’s a root of why many of our issues even exist that we have a mission to address. So there needs to be less fear of that because the fear has really just got us to a very entrenched place of oppression. So can folks be willing to talk about that so that they can move forward and actually address that emissions and serve their communities and really be part of the change that our communities need.

[00:39:02.76] spk_1:
And we’ve had ah, good number of guests on lately talking about all those subjects on and more toe. There’s more to say about it. There’s more to the organizational journey to achieve racial equity and social justice. And I’m glad that we’ve been ableto have a good number of guests on, and I’m always looking for more on those kinds of subjects. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Maria Semple. What’s going on? Your practice? The Prospect Finder?

[00:39:15.16] spk_6:
Well, you know, you still have no profits who are thinking about their major gift programs, obviously. And, um, it has been a good time for some of them to kind of sit back and do some research on those donors that make you know, maybe they haven’t really focused on quite a ZX much, Um, and thinking about, you know, how is the the approach to them going to be different? And so you know, a lot of a lot of interesting things going on in the prospect research and major gift

[00:39:39.16] spk_1:
world. Very simple. Of course she’s about six miles away from me or so maybe it’s a little more. I’m not sure. Except

[00:39:46.48] spk_5:
some. I didn’t realize you to work.

[00:39:48.48] spk_1:
We’re on. We’re on the same island, different towns. But we’re on the same island. Thanks. Same barrier island in North,

[00:39:54.98] spk_6:
same Barrier Island that’s being targeted by this

[00:40:01.16] spk_1:
story. Support of life, Any of us

[00:40:02.67] spk_6:
pronounced story is, you know, but

[00:40:05.62] spk_1:
what’s the name of the name of the storm? Had Allah wishes? It’s like

[00:40:09.36] spk_2:
it’s with an I

[00:40:10.94] spk_1:
I I z o or

[00:40:12.53] spk_2:
something? Yeah, I don’t know.

[00:40:13.91] spk_6:
How does that help

[00:40:18.78] spk_2:
broker? Al Rocker said it really nicely today, but the job he gets paid, like $3 million.

[00:40:22.28] spk_5:
What the Who’s so seen?

[00:40:39.85] spk_1:
Some, uh, some interesting, Which could be, ah, good or bad, I guess. Funny, like Zoom Zoom backgrounds. You’re all we’re all talking. Yeah, we all have lots of zoom meetings. All of us. He’s got He’s got a good zoom background that you saw. Wow, like I see Scott Stein right now is curious. George,

[00:40:45.21] spk_2:
he’s got That’s the best one, and I just I just put that up on lengthen, so

[00:40:48.69] spk_3:
that’s not a background. This

[00:40:53.28] spk_1:
is not about. Well, it is now my toddler’s part of your background. It’s

[00:40:55.57] spk_5:
part of your

[00:40:55.92] spk_2:
background or your back. Oh, I think you should sell that to Zoom.

[00:40:58.91] spk_3:
I thought that curious George would just lighten the mood a little

[00:41:01.88] spk_1:
bit. Absolutely. Does

[00:41:03.44] spk_2:
my love curious George

[00:41:04.92] spk_1:
is inspired me to ask. Well, who else has seen something funny?

[00:41:09.25] spk_5:
Are you saying that the virtual backgrounds are you talking about just people having things in their background?

[00:41:13.38] spk_1:
I mean more like people in their backgrounds, in their home,

[00:41:18.14] spk_2:
their real backgrounds? Well, I’ve really enjoyed watching, like I watch the Today Show on NBC Watcher And so I really studied the backgrounds, and I like to read the titles of the books on the shelves behind the people, and that’s kind of interesting. And then sometimes, like if they have their own book that they wrote, there’s like 10 copies of it. So they have, like, four other copies, and there’s like 10 copies of their book and in a couple of more copies. So I like to look at the titles like Colbert has it, and it’s funny cause Colbert’s like in his basement and non allaying and It’s just, you know, nothing fancy. And it’s like an old desk and stuff. And so I like to look at the stuff on his on his shelf. Everybody likes, you know, history books and biographies.

[00:41:54.60] spk_3:
I was you were mentioning People’s books like You can always Tell the sign of an independent musician because somewhere in there place they have boxes and boxes of unsold CDs. Right? Right. It’s, Ah, one of my band mates referred to them as a very expensive caught coffee table.

[00:42:12.29] spk_2:
Well, that’s funny.

[00:42:13.00] spk_3:
It’s kind of what they’re doing,

[00:42:14.42] spk_2:
right. You could do Wall Art with them. Like to a whole.

[00:42:17.52] spk_3:
A tribute to me.

[00:42:29.02] spk_2:
Yeah, I my one narcissists. Come on. You got plenty of time. Don’t just got the’s. No. Now with the baby and curious George.

[00:42:33.65] spk_1:
Anybody else? I’m missing Something funny. Mark Silverman just had Mark Silverman is our web guy. He just had his, uh Well, that was That was a fake background. His driving. He’s driving background, but nothing. Nobody’s, uh I don’t think I sauce. I’ve seen good lighting. People have. I see people using light to good effect. I think people have realized that turned on light makes a much nicer back. Have

[00:42:55.26] spk_2:
light on your face to like this. There’s a lot of things for when you’re lighting an interview. You know, you put light on the person’s on the person. Stay so you’ll notice Everyone has diesel around rings, and sometimes you can see it reflected in their glasses. Yeah,

[00:43:06.93] spk_1:
that’s a problem. Light rings right. The glasses. You got it. You got to be careful with the glasses, because even just your screen will reflect into the glasses,

[00:43:13.38] spk_2:
right? Like, right now, I turn that way. Exactly. Turn that way.

[00:43:24.40] spk_1:
Yeah. Now your alien, your google eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Um uh Well, what else? I feel like I feel like it’s a cocktail party.

[00:43:28.30] spk_5:
Didn’t you say we were supposed to all answer some questions? I didn’t write down the question, Waas. I don’t like what? I didn’t think about the question, but I did make the mental note of tony Has some question we’re supposed to answer. Well, how you got into nonprofits? Yes, I like that. Like, what was your reverse non profit job? You know what I like

[00:43:45.85] spk_2:
to know? What did people do before they worked in the non profit because everyone has a different story. So what did you What was your last job before you entered the non profit space? And what was your first job in the non profit space?

[00:43:59.20] spk_5:
I only have one job, not in a 1,000,000 profit space. And that’s what I was 15 and I worked in a coffee shop. Okay.

[00:44:05.52] spk_2:
And then So your first job was your non profit job.

[00:44:08.63] spk_5:
My first job was working in the in the coffee shop?

[00:44:10.82] spk_2:
No, but I mean, your first non profit job was your current Is your current job?

[00:44:14.19] spk_5:
No, but I just always worked in a non profit sector.

[00:44:16.31] spk_1:
Right? At 16 years old, she was CEO event in its inquiry. I

[00:44:20.34] spk_2:
know. Easy. That’s

[00:44:24.10] spk_5:
cool. That’s a good idea. Jean, what do

[00:44:25.46] spk_1:
you do? Before you were a non profit attorney, you were hung fancy fans. Now I bounced a lot iced. I sold insurance. I worked in a beauty salon. No retail, but the last job I had was I was operations manager for duty free retailer in San Francisco. So we’re about a $50 million a year business in the early nineties, and I had to lay everybody off cause, uh

[00:44:48.98] spk_2:
oh, man,

[00:45:11.59] spk_1:
But Bender purse ity on. So it’s 150 people gone. I continued to work doing sort of national expansion for this huge global retailer, but, uh, it made me decide I wanted Teoh work. It’s something more meaningful. So I saw this little newspaper ad for what I believe was the first non profit graduate degree program in the country at the University of San Francisco. And so the two year program in the evening. So I jumped, shipped them, left my job, work for a tiny social service organisation. Azan office manager. And, yeah, that’s schools.

[00:45:30.32] spk_5:
That’s a

[00:45:30.56] spk_2:
great story. How about you, Maria? What did you do before you got into nonprofits?

[00:46:25.21] spk_6:
I was working for a French investment bank in Manhattan per five years out of college and, um, buying and selling and trading securities and French and, um, so very different from working in our profit space. Um, didn’t enjoy it very much. Was having dinner at my father in laws who owned a fundraising consulting firm based in Nutley, New Jersey, and complaining about my job and hating it. And, um, he said, Well, I am looking for a campaign manager for a Salvation Army capital campaign Wow in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and I raised my hand. And, like you said, who said to Jean just said, Jumping ship right, I jump ship and, um, landed in the non profit space that way and in consulting for him and then branched out on my own when I started a family and decided I could do prospect research from home. So I’ve been doing I’ve been doing this home based thing and yes, for long Talking’s yes, since, uh, since the early nineties,

[00:46:48.38] spk_2:
that’s cool. So, tony, before you worked in nonprofits, you’re in the service, weren’t you?

[00:46:59.88] spk_1:
Yeah, that was That was long before I was in the Air Force left. There is a captain, and then I went to law school and hated practicing law. And then I started my first business, which did mediocre. So I ended it and became director of plan to give him at Iona College.

[00:48:12.37] spk_2:
Everyone has a great non profit story. I worked in broadcast journalism. I worked in all news radio in Washington, D. C. I worked at CNN as a news writer worked it except satellite radio in D. C. And I covered a lot of nonprofits when I was a reporter. Because you you know, if there’s this, it’s cold and you do it. Music historian. A homeless shelter You end up at a non profit. You interviewed the director, that kind of thing. So I was like the non profit space and then later started doing like a little PR for non profits and things like that, and then eventually worked my way into the wonderful world of plan giving. We That’s how I met tony-martignetti because I read an interview that you had done, and I was needed some content for another publication. I was editing and I said, Can I take your article and turn it into a Q and A. I emailed you and your like sure, and we talked on the phone. And then if I had questions about planned giving stuff for this writing I was doing, I recall tony and he was so generous with his time and we became phone friends, and then, ah, then he wanted to do a radio show, and I’m a radio person. So 10 years ago, tony started that

[00:48:16.84] spk_5:
I can’t believe no one else spent years making espresso drinks and serving sandwiches to people like What kind of non profit group of people are waiting? The only person that did that? Well, if you

[00:48:24.52] spk_2:
go that far back I worked at Roy Rogers on Long Island and you know I said, Howdy, partner. May I help you? Thank you very much. Happy trails. I worked at Friendly’s. I was an ice cream scooper it friendlies. I was awake.

[00:48:34.37] spk_5:
Nice, nice.

[00:49:16.64] spk_1:
My only espresso experiences. Where? When I was waiting tables when in my restaurant the waiters had the create the oppressors and I always cringe when people ordered them because I could never get it right. Allow when one table order an espresso, everybody else was Wait. Everybody else was late. Their entrees. Cold salads didn’t come. I cut out the suit to get to the entree and tell him I Telemann was through the kitchens. Fault I couldn’t get a Nespresso built was never right. It was too foamy, right? Old Mr Hot. There was too much steam. There wasn’t enough steam. The coffee grounds were to compressed. They weren’t compressed enough. Wow, the curses. Espresso was a 20.

[00:49:17.49] spk_2:
Tony has nightmares about espresso. Hey, that that was an Italian restaurant.

[00:49:21.63] spk_1:
It wasn’t Italian restaurant. Yes. Had to been in the example. Ward, You did many more espressos. Like I’m sure you have it better down much better down there. She’s

[00:49:28.90] spk_2:
great at it.

[00:50:36.51] spk_5:
Yeah. I mean, looking back, it just seems so interesting. I mean, you know, I grew up in a very small town, so I guess that came with dressed. But like, you know, to 15 year olds, we were alone in the shop, running the entire shop, closing it, doing all the bank deposits, you know, like so I guess it helped instill from a very young age like responsibility, this and all of that. But it also was like we we didn’t have anyone else. They’re telling us, you know? Oh, you have to do whatever this customer says or whatever is just like, you know, to 15 year old people. And we were like, No, you don’t get that thing. That’s not fair. You just demand. Like I saw you put your gun. This person did this regularly. Take their gum, put it on the side of their play, eat their food, and then mix the gum into the rest of their salad and then come up and say there was gonna salad. I’m not paying. No. Yeah. And so we would just say Like Like, we don’t know. For adult manager telling us, the customer’s always right. No, no, that’s your gun. Back to your gun. You start getting your money back, you eat.

[00:50:54.51] spk_2:
We’re gonna swallow that gum. I’m 15 and I’m in charge. Yeah, well, that’s good. You learn assertiveness. You learn responsibility. Yeah, that’s great. That’s a That’s a great story

[00:51:00.08] spk_5:
we learned far better than tony. How to make espresso drinks. That was my first exposure to people. Like to melted cheddar cheese on top of their cold apple pie. Like, you know, I learned a lot about humanity in that

[00:51:12.53] spk_1:
herd. Yeah, I’ve heard of that one.

[00:51:14.67] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. I worked at Marie Rogers on the island man there. I learned a lot about humanity.

[00:51:21.92] spk_1:
We get into before we get to gross beef stories. Way we got to move on. Neighbor Maria, Maria, Amy and Jean. Thank you so much for what you contribute for you. I don’t want you to go stay if you can stay because Scott’s gonna perform another song, but I want to thank you. Thanks. Thanks to each of you. For all the years you’ve been contributors. Many, many years for each of you. Thank you so much for what you give to our listeners.

[00:51:47.11] spk_5:
Thanks for having a platform that’s open toe. Lots of people. Tony.

[00:51:56.98] spk_1:
Yes. I’ve seen the regulations on 500 100. It’s amazing.

[00:51:59.83] spk_6:
Amazing mission, you 10 More wonderful years.

[00:52:02.14] spk_1:
Thank you. I will do it. I’ll do it. It’s got Let’s get Scott back. He’s got ah, that’s gonna do singing Spanish blues.

[00:52:18.84] spk_3:
I am got starting. All right, here we go. Uh, this song, like the other one, has a lot of words for me to remember. So here we go.

[00:55:58.52] spk_0:
Morning with New York. Finishing way. My doctor asked for his Is it son? I think it just man. It’s somewhere in the east of Spain where Jonathan here requires a voice like church bells rang Way No way, man Stature way to my hotel. Try to rest my head with a familiar voice Reverb woman from my bed I jumped up and ran to the window. I could not believe my ears. I believe my eyes. Neither. She stood there in the clear now had no weapon type romance. This was much downstairs. And now there’s a lady in waiting way drains. Booth door process is an engineer. And when the Paschen shots last, she went back to back way missing in this gots time.

[00:56:04.70] spk_1:
Wow. Amazing. Thanks. Outstanding singing Spanish blues. Thank you. Thank you. I love Scott Stein. Thanks so much. Scott. Yes. Scott Stein music dot com. Right. Do have that right?

[00:56:11.81] spk_3:
Yes. Yeah, that’s correct. And and thanks again for having me, tony. And congratulations on 500 yeah, always always a pleasure to to do this with you. Here.

[00:57:45.03] spk_1:
Thank you, Scott. I love I love having cheap red wine is part of our show. You’re with me every every hour. Every intro, every outro, every show. Cheap red wine is with us. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. Check him out. Scott stein music dot com. So I said earlier this is gonna be our last live show. Friday 1 to 2 p.m. Eastern has been my slot at talking alternative. Now, talking radio dot N.Y.C. since July of 2010. And this is gonna be the last one. We’re We’re going to be live streamed. The show is just gonna be a well, not just gonna be the show is gonna be a podcast only from from here on. Um, and what that has meant for these 10 years is working with Sam Liebowitz Every show I’ve credited him. Sam Lever, which is our line producer. Um, and so it’s been just Ah, wonderful run with Sam. Hundreds of shows in the studio every anniversary show, which is every July, every 50 shows in the studio before this one. Um, and I’ve just been grateful for the partnership with Sam and and the network. The talking alternative network, which is again talk radio dot N.Y.C.. Sam, you’re not able to join us by audio. It doesn’t. I see you, but Ah, you can’t, um you have

[00:57:53.07] spk_7:
to keep switching. I can come on, but I have to switch back. Otherwise the rest of the audio doesn’t go out. But I don’t think I’m being recorded right now.

[00:58:04.60] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So, Sam, just Sam just spoke. Yes, we hear him, but he thinks he’s not being recorded, and we see him. So what? He said was tony has been an outstanding host, has been exemplary. He’s so handsome. I’m blushing on the

[00:58:16.77] spk_2:
ledge of color like notion on, um,

[00:58:18.88] spk_7:
and tony does remain the into the honor, having the honor of being, besides my own show the longest running show on work. Um, there was a period of time when we had several shows that have been with us for about five years. But out of all those shows, tony is the only one who has stayed consistent over all this time and to stay with this this long. Thank you so much, tony. I appreciate you know, all of the time that you’ve spent with us. I appreciate all your support and I love your mission. And I wish you the best of luck and only the best things moving forward.

[00:59:32.36] spk_1:
Thank you, Sam. I hope listeners were able to hear that we’re not. Sam said he’s not sure if if it was recorded, but, uh, I hope it was. Thank you, Sam. It’s been just Ah, lovely, wonderful fun collaboration for these 10 years? Absolutely, absolutely so. But where, Of course, the show continues. As I said on podcast every Friday, I’m gonna keep Teoh every Friday schedule. There’ll be a brand new show every Friday. Um, available to ah are 13,000 listeners a lot of this out of. Thank you. Thank you, John. So we got to wrap it up and I want a sky. I want to thank very much Scott Stein so much. Scott stein music dot com Scott, Thanks so much for being with us.

[00:59:43.45] spk_3:
Thank you for Thank you for having me.

[00:59:47.12] spk_1:
I want to give a shout out to our our web guy. Uh ah. I always I’m always crediting him on our Mark. Silverman is our Web guy. So Mark Silverman has been has been in the background for the show. I want to say hello. You’re not You do speak. I love the background on the background guy, but you know, I made if you will, tony, don’t make me stand up alive. But here I am, tony, it’s been great. I’m there every friday for you. I put the podcast up on to the website. It’s been a long and wonderful relationship. And 10 more years make it 20. I’m happy to be there for you and congratulations. Thank you, Mark. Thanks And thanks for all your help. It’s been many, many years. You’ve Well, you’ve been since the beginning. Yeah. Being doing the back end for us. Thank you so much. I wish I was on that submarine

[01:00:35.10] spk_4:
with you when you were the captain. That would have been even

[01:00:46.84] spk_1:
more fun. Submarine? I was underground, but I was close. I was I was underground, not underwater. But you were. So Yeah, I was subterranean. Claim Meyerhoff. Thank you so much. 10 years collaborating, creative producer, co hosting every single anniversary show.

[01:01:16.17] spk_2:
Thank you. It’s really, really been a joy. And, you know, normally I come up to New York and we did this great New York show in Sam Studio and Scott lugs in is you know, sometimes I meet Scott at the door and I carry in some gear for a minute. It’s always such a tree. And then afterwards we go out and we get a bagel or something in the city and Ah, but this on Zoom was really, really nice. And I’ve enjoyed it greatly. So if you needed a guest sometime, just hit me up and zoom away. We will. I’d love to. It’s been really fun,

[01:02:19.09] spk_1:
Thank you. Our 10th anniversary 500 show. Thank you so much for being with us. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for all of each of our listeners, and I’m glad that non profit radio helps you in the important work that you are doing. The feedback I get is, um, it’s touching. I know, I know. We’re helping nonprofits with their missions and their values. That’s why we do the show. Great job. Next week we’ll return to our 20 NTC coverage with more of anti sees smart speakers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com Like Coca mapped in software Denali Fund, is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er, Mountain for a free 60 day trial and my turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo,

[01:02:32.87] spk_2:
and we’d like to thank Sam Liebowitz. He’s our line producer. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this delightful, fantastic, marvellous live

[01:02:45.51] spk_0:
music by the Super town, too. That’s mine on

[01:03:06.49] spk_1:
your creative producer. That’s me with me. Next week. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go up and be great. Great show. Thank you. So