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Nonprofit Radio for May 15, 2020: Leadership & Donor Advised Funds

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My Guests:

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward: Leadership
In two recent shows, guests agreed that Amy Sample Ward represents a shining example of vulnerable leadership. So who better to speak to about leadership—whether in a crisis or not? She’s CEO of NTEN and our technology and social media contributor.

 

Maria Semple

Maria Semple: Donor Advised Funds
Let’s relieve the misery of DAFs. There may be a lot you cannot find, but you’re not helpless. Maria Semple has advice and resources for finding and reaching the funds. She’s our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder.

 

 

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[00:00:11.14] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit

[00:00:16.08] spk_2:
ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly

[00:02:03.74] spk_1:
named host. I’m continuing with a dizzy production, audacity and zoom. No studio. I don’t know if you can hear that ocean. I hear the ocean. It’s not digital. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of ridiculous senioritis if you unnerved me with the idea that you missed today’s show leadership. In two recent shows, my guests agreed that Amy Sample Ward represents a shining example of vulnerable leadership. So who better to speak to about leadership, whether in a crisis or not? Then Amy Sample Ward. She’s CEO of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor and donor advised funds. Let’s relieve the misery of donor advised funds. There may be a lot you cannot find, but you’re not helpless. Maria Simple has advice, and resource is for finding and reaching the funds. She’s our prospect research contributor and the Prospect Finder. Last week I did say we’d have a 20 TC panel with Maria. Leadership just felt more timely on tony steak, too. Take 1/3 breath were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is leadership with Amy Sample

[00:02:13.94] spk_2:
Ward. It’s always a pleasure to welcome you, Amy Sample Ward. And there you are. This is not like you have to wait until I say, you know, there you are. You’re already here. You’re here,

[00:02:15.53] spk_4:
you know? And I get to see you, you know, normally shows or like, over the phone or whatever, So yeah, I can see you. Um, thank you for such a kind intro.

[00:02:33.34] spk_2:
Love it, actually, yes. That, uh, uh let me also remind people that, uh, you your you’re you blogged at, uh you still blogging any sample ward dot or

[00:02:44.50] spk_4:
ge? I mean, I do have the website, but normally, if I’m writing something that’s either for in 10 or yeah,

[00:02:48.53] spk_2:
I’ll scratch that no more. Aimee Semple ward dot org’s is still at a me R s board. Always very good. Okay,

[00:02:52.40] spk_4:
Yes. Happy to tony.

[00:03:04.54] spk_2:
So? So Yes. Two different panels, at least one of which is a special episode. So people have already heard it. Maybe both of them. But, um, you, Ah, I brought you up, actually, as an example of vulnerable leadership. And the panels agreed immediately. So it wasn’t just wasn’t only me saying it.

[00:03:13.90] spk_1:
And then

[00:03:14.30] spk_4:
we’ll have to go find those people. Send them in. Thank you. Guessed

[00:03:32.64] spk_2:
it was about one is about leadership. And the other one was about team care. I think I’m pretty sure those were the two. So that was the leadership. One was leadership number one for our special episodes. But here we are, the ship to so vulnerable leadership. What does that does that mean to you?

[00:04:00.34] spk_4:
Um, you know, it’s not necessarily a phrase that I would use because I guess maybe the phrase I would use and what that term means to me is just authentic leadership. You know, I think you can’t be authentic if you aren’t being all sides of your emotions. You know, if there’s only like, 11 version of how you are, then I don’t think it creates a lot of space for the folks that work with you, whether inside the organization or outside to feel like they’re allowed to have multiple emotions or thoughts. You know, if you’re kind of setting the precedent, that that’s the way you expect others to be When when you hold yourself to that,

[00:04:22.44] spk_2:
Okay. Authentic, I think.

[00:04:24.15] spk_4:
Yeah. I mean, we can see we can use vulnerable. That’s just, you know, maybe not the language that I think of myself.

[00:04:32.94] spk_2:
Okay, Um, authentic ce Fine. Yeah, but it z it suggests Ah, on honesty on open. Right. Ah, collaboration.

[00:04:52.04] spk_4:
Totally. And I don’t think, you know, I love that you use the word collaboration because that’s what I think about. A lot is like, if you really collaborating with other folks, you’re all kind of joining unequal space, right? To share ideas or talker. Come up with whatever the work is your your collaborating on and the same would be true in leadership and tough times, right? Like you have to really meet and create a space where everyone can have all those emotions and work through it together. Otherwise, you aren’t really in partnership with each other. Right? You are. You’re somehow separate from everyone.

[00:05:36.94] spk_2:
Yeah, right now there are There are leaders who are not of this ilk. They would say that, you know, emotions, emotions in the workplace. Um, they don’t that they really don’t belong. You obviously

[00:06:57.64] spk_4:
don’t agree with that. You you know, I think if you don’t have, if you don’t have the kind of emotional intelligence Teoh experience those emotions identify those emotions, understand where they’re coming from and where they’re trying Teoh lead you or what they’re telling you about how you’re taking an information, then you’re not really using all the tools that nature has given you, right? I mean, a big part of being a leader is developing a really strong gut, right? Being able to like, go do your research but also have, like, you know, in the moment where things should go right, like that’s I always think a great sign of someone that, um has strong leadership, regardless of the job title, is that they’ve developed a really strong gut. And the way you do that is 100% pure emotion. By understanding like how your body is reacting in the moment, Teoh an idea or two. A conflict and understanding. Not just best. Oh, I’m having this emotion. But I know why I’m having this emotion. I know where it’s leading me. I know what my gut is telling me to do right now, you know? So if you feel like emotions aren’t welcome or not professional or shouldn’t be in your workplace, I really worry that that has hampered the ability for both you and your staff toe like truly use all their skills

[00:07:03.74] spk_2:
and then but in the same but same talking, you have to be empathic right t to recognize the emotions in others through, um, official expressions, body language, tone. Right there. I start watering, were smiling. Let’s not keep it all negative. You right there smiling there. Um, so you have to see the emotion. I

[00:07:26.04] spk_4:
think that’s the piece that takes,

[00:07:27.76] spk_2:
you know, a

[00:08:35.74] spk_4:
lot of takes a lot out of people you know is is being able to not just read and understand how others are feeling, but kind of react to that. I don’t see manager because it’s not your job to, like, manage their feelings, but be able to react to it and and both of you have a strong interaction. You know, um, I also think there’s something I see a lot in the nonprofit sector that leads to burnout us folks truly being so empathetic that they’re taking on that emotional burden of either their staff for their community that they serve. You know, it’s something to be able to read and understand and operate within emotions. And it’s another to feel like you are carrying those emotions for your staff, you know, And it’s a lot to carry our own emotions alone, like 20 more people’s emotions, you know, And you ultimately can’t do that at least not very long without burning out. You know, so understanding how you can except and address and engage those emotions that your staff maybe having whether again, whether they’re positive or negative, and and then move forward so that you aren’t just feeling then responsible for every feeling that that person has, you know.

[00:08:51.78] spk_2:
So when you’re feeling emotional about something, getting feeling an emotional reaction or you’re sensing it in the person you’re talking to, you make it explicit. Do you? Yeah, comfortable enough space that you start talking about. You know, you raised the fact let’s put aside what we’re talking about. I’m getting a reaction from you or I’m feeling this reaction to what? Your Let’s talk about how we’re feeling.

[00:10:27.84] spk_4:
I mean, I think it’s hard to put anything aside. So in the moment, you know, just saying I’m really feeling this or how are you feeling about this conversation? You know, I think, and that as adults we have, especially in this sector, we have very complicated feelings. Sometimes often the feelings are like personally feeling challenged by something and at the same time knowing how much we might have to do it, you know? And it creates like an emotional conflict within ourselves. Teoh, hold two things that are maybe opposite at the same time. You know, um and just letting folks have the space to say how they’re feeling. Not just Do you know what your next steps are? Please go do them, you know, like, how do you feel about them? Because I feel like if folks don’t have space to maim and share and address how they’re feeling about things when they go to to move forward with those next steps, they’re either not going to go as maybe effectively or efficiently as they could because they’re still like, caught up in processing how they feel about them, you know? So just spending that probably shorter amount of time undressing how folks are feeling together essentially like speeds up them being able to go do the work. You know,

[00:11:10.80] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As We received our P PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven? It sounds like this is sounding abs, religion, absolution. I absolve you. You are absolved. Um, but it is just forgiveness, not absolution. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events to find out more about these p p p loans and forgiveness. Now back to leadership with Amy Sample Ward.

[00:12:17.54] spk_2:
I identified you as AH vulnerable leader because of the video that you posted on the Internet website that was announcing the decision to cancel the to cancel the 2020 NTC, the non profit at the conference. And there were I think there were two times in that video that we saw you wiped tears from your eyes. And not only that, but you opened up to the fact that the conference represents 62% of and tens revenue for the year. So you’re not only gonna be without that revenue, then you also had penalties that have to be paid on. So new and additional expenses penalties paid for contracts that had medical. Um, so the I guess the parts where you were teary, tearful, you didn’t. Or did you think about taking those out of the video or or doing a take to where you will be showing less emotion to the public?

[00:12:25.74] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, at that point in the day, I didn’t know that there were tears left. I’d already cried in in every in every phone call I had for that day, you know? So I kind of thought I was dehydrated enough. Do not have that you bore

[00:12:42.07] spk_2:
about just just last month. I mean, yes, maybe our recording on April 28th it was Yeah. It was just last month that this will happen.

[00:12:53.50] spk_4:
I have goose bumps with you, just describing the day and having to make the video

[00:12:56.85] spk_2:
by our watering a little bit thinking about you.

[00:16:58.34] spk_4:
Yeah. I mean, I think the I mean, you know me, like I’m usually a one take person like, Well, however, that went is how it went, you know, But I guess that’s back to the authentic piece. But, you know, I also I mean, I got to the end of the video. I felt pretty good for, like, being able to continue talking. I never had to stop and cry. That felt that was kind of my bar, you know, like, I continue to talk the whole time, so that wasn’t success. And then, you know, I do it Thomas, our communications director, and said like, I cannot watch myself say those things again. So you watch the video. If you think I’m not holding it together enough, you know, I can try and do it again. And he was like, no thistles sign. You don’t have to try and do this again, you know, um but I think I have had a lot of seen back. I mean, I’m someone who cries. There are lots of people that cry, you know? Oh, and crying is great and healthy. And to me, feels like a clear sign that I I opened up the channels so that my my heart and my body can tell me when I’m feeling certain things, you know? And, um, I always cried the NTC, you know, because there’s such incredible, passionate folks. They’re sharing their stories. There are really wonderful people. Well, that we’re highlighting our awards. You know, I just get sad. That’s the last day, and everyone’s gonna leave. So, um e I have gotten feedback in the past, especially from women or non binary folks in the community that getting to see said someone willing to cry has made them feel like bay themselves. As someone who has those emotions is not unprofessional, you know, and is not doing something wrong, and she wouldn’t be who they are. So I appreciate those folks giving that kind of generous feedback. Like I you know, we don’t necessarily have a relationship. You have to tell me that, you know, So that’s a huge gift. But I also thought about that in the video after, you know, after Thomas said he was gonna use that and he said, like, it looks like you’re crying. Are you OK with us putting that out there and it was just like, this is really effin hard. Yeah, like I held it together. So I’m buying with with that. And like, maybe people won’t notice that don’t know me are paying this close attention to the video, you know? So I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, but it is really hard to say those things especially, you know, of course, we all the world is different now, and all these weeks later, we know a different truth. But at that time, these things were not known, you know? So, um, there’s there’s no reason that saying something hard has to be, like, straight faced and going No emotionless. Yeah. Um I mean, it was just just like a few, like the following sunday. Maybe after we canceled staff a staff person posted in our slack account that the Baltimore Convention Center, where we were meant to hold the conference was gonna be in Baltimore, was being transition to be a field hospital for Kobe patients. And it was like it was just a ah, huge emotional release for so many of us. Not necessarily sad, but just all those emotions, you know, that like we had put so much work into planning what we would do in that at space. And now, instead of us being there, there’s patients, you know. And what is that? How does that reflect on everything that we must have just gone through? So I don’t think there’s any way to have made that video or to have talked about that decision or those times without with without a lot of emotions, you know?

[00:17:33.84] spk_2:
Well, I admire the the willingness to share emotion and also to accept it in others. I I can’t only see how that would create a more collaborative, cohesive team, closer relationships with each individual team member on then and then as a result of a more cohesive team Overall, Uh, I can’t see. You know, I don’t I don’t understand people who, um, think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness, right? No, that makes you somehow makes you weak, and you have to be stoic. All

[00:19:41.06] spk_4:
right, very. It’s a very like white, dominant capitalist, patriarchal, even mode of thinking, right, because emotion and those paradigms is feminine and feminine is bad. Where we all have all of those traders, you know, and that emotion is uncontrolled, and that’s not good right, Those air, those air bodies of thought that want control. Um And I guess I also just would love a world where those air, not the bodies of thought, were operating with them. Right? That like we’re not We’re not here. T get the last dollar out of everything that I believe as a community, we have all the resources we need for the rural we want. It’s about working and really station ship with each other so that we can use those resources in the right ways, you know? And I think that piece about being in relationship with each other is the piece I think about. You know, when you’re talking about vulnerable leadership like if you’re in a relationship, you expect to be vulnerable with that person and have that person be vulnerable with you, right? That’s but so much of of kind of the U. S. Culture is like relationships are Onley romantic relationships like there are partner or spouse. Relationships are every person that we interact with, right? And if you’re really entering those conversations, those friendships in relationship with each other, you should be vulnerable with each other. You should be comfortable being vulnerable with each other. You know, like you and I have had off camera off camera, off audio, very vulnerable conversations, right about, like, personal growth and things that we want to work on. And that means that other craft conversations we have that maybe oranges emotional or art is vulnerable are better because we’ve also been able to have those other types of conversations, you know? So I think seeing leadership as maybe the person who stewards those relationships within the organization changes again the role in the dynamic of emotion there that you’re almost the one that has to be even more vulnerable because you’re the one saying we are in relationship here, you know? And we really should have have these connections with each other.

[00:20:39.84] spk_2:
See, this is why you’re the person who writes the books because you see, you take this from the microcosm that that we were talking about. And then you extrapolated to the broader community that has sufficient resources to achieve the missions and the goals that we want. If we could just channel those and work together. Yeah, you have ah, way of seeing the big picture. Thank you. I admire which I’d mind. Yeah, that’s a Europe. Yeah. You’re the book writing people. You know, things. If you have the books in you and those of us who have the more I don’t know, maybe more.

[00:20:42.74] spk_4:
The area is

[00:20:51.54] spk_2:
where the grounded worth the grounded level. But you take it to the next level. Um, well, so

[00:20:52.32] spk_4:
what? So can I, like, reverse the interview and s

[00:20:57.27] spk_2:
so I don’t like when, uh, you know,

[00:20:59.06] spk_4:
you don’t. That’s why I e

[00:21:02.05] spk_1:
ever turned you down. Maybe I did in the beginning.

[00:21:19.64] spk_4:
So? So just as like, a thought experiment. Not that you have toe, you know, share something that you don’t want to share on the air. But you know it. There are there examples when, like, what’s your anti? See a video? What’s what? You had to share something. It is not to being broadcast with the world like our video, but you know it. Is there something that wasn’t wasn’t bound within a romantic relationship, but was an example where you were having to share information or news or ask a question that required your vulnerability in relationship with someone professional?

[00:22:13.04] spk_2:
Yeah. The ones that come to mind are a couple of a couple of shows. A ah show on diversity equity and inclusion with Jean Takagi. Where we, you know, we talked explicitly about white male power. Yeah. Ah, and history. Um, and then another one that you and I did I don’t remember Was that it was at a d I conversation? No, it was when you and I talked about poverty. Porn?

[00:22:19.29] spk_4:
Oh, yeah,

[00:22:25.44] spk_2:
that was, uh, that was a moving one for, um, So those are those are a couple of those mind. Yeah.

[00:22:31.06] spk_4:
Thanks for sharing. What is Iris? Yeah, I know. You want to turn it back around?

[00:23:51.94] spk_2:
No, no, because I there there are There are people who have, you know, have this format, But going back decades, um, who I admire like Dick Cavett. Cavite is ah, seems to be a very vulnerable and authentic host of his show. And there’s hundreds of clips on YouTube of him. Yeah, and he opens up, and I you know, um, there are other folks as well. Ah, maybe lesser known, you know, but that I take cues from yeah, producing the show. But in being a host, like the host guest interaction, Dick Cavett is is my number one because he because he is so authentic. Yeah, so it doesn’t, you know, Yeah, I think those were sort of breakthrough moments. I would count those. I don’t know if you count your in 10. You know, the NTC cancellation video is a as a highlight of your career, but when those conversations happen, it’s completely organic. You know? I know D eyes a sensitive topic, but I didn’t know that I was going to get emotional with g discussing it. Right. But

[00:24:41.44] spk_4:
I think part of that reflection that you’re having is also the acknowledgement that whether the topic is sensitive or not, it’s that you feel personally responsible for your actions within that topic, right? Like I think about, um, I have some friends who have had a history with cancer, and, you know, when they share stories of Dr that was like and here’s like the news, blah, blah, blah, it’s so hard. And somehow it is easier when the doctor is also sad, you know, and feeling like this is really hard. We’re gonna talk about this. We’re also gonna talk about treatment and and whatever, but you don’t have to not share the news, But you also don’t have to share it in a cold way. You can be. You can you can share in that kind of personal space of that topic with someone, and I kind of hear that in your reflection. You know that? Yeah. Is it? It’s a hard topic, but you were willing to be kind of responsible for yourself in that topic, you know?

[00:26:02.35] spk_2:
Um, all right, So how does it let’s bring it back this back to the leadership, then? Yes, Um, where we’re talking about being open emotionally, being authentic, Um, empathic, I think subsumed in all this is listening, active listening as well as feeling emotion, hearing words as well as as well as taking in the full person. Not just not only what they’re saying, but listening to their words. Um, curious minded, sometimes in leadership, uh, one of the at least one of these, uh, previous special episodes. The idea being curious minded, you know? Yeah. Asking questions, not just taking what said. And I guess, you know, ignoring your own questions about it, being willing to admit that you don’t understand something that someone has just explained you know, maybe you’re hearing it for the first time. It doesn’t have to be a technical subject. You know, it could be a to be a very emotional subject, but you just don’t You don’t quite you don’t grasp. But you’re curious enough and authentic enough to ask, you know, could you flesh it out more?

[00:26:21.08] spk_4:
Yeah. Being curiosity is

[00:26:25.60] spk_2:
I just don’t understand what you’re all

[00:28:31.24] spk_4:
right. I think curiosity is something that folks could use so much more. I feel like I don’t hear folks talk about curiosity very much. And I feel like it could be a pass for all of the times When you’re like, I don’t get what you’re saying instead of having to say or fight and some nice way to say, like, can you please repeat that? Because I don’t understand. You could say I’m really curious, you know, like, can you keep talking about it because I’m just very curious. And using curiosity as Urine road both for understanding and kind of letting folks further explain themselves is such a kind of positive neutral entry point instead of you’re not making sense, right? Or you did not explain that to May right. It’s like I’m curious. Please just keep keep explaining. You know, um and I think the other part of what you’re saying there is acknowledging that as a leader. And again, I don’t think a leader is only someone who has, like, CEOs, their job title. Anyone in any moment is maybe the leader right of their project on their team or whatever, but acknowledging that you don’t already know everything in my experience, that looks like not knowing how to do any certain thing that pops up as an organization. It’s so much more freeing for me as an individual t just openly say, Well, it’s certainly never canceled the NTC before. So, like, I don’t have answers to your questions about what we’re about to do. But I know that we’re gonna stay in relationship. We’re going to stay in this room. We’re gonna stay in this together, and collectively we will figure out the answers to those questions. We will figure out what it is we need to do, and then we will do it, you know. But, um releases myself of having to, like, anticipate every single question to know the answer. When, of course, I don’t know those answers. I’ve never done this before. A lot of people, you know? I mean, we’re on our, uh, you event planners association list. And everyone in March was like, I’ve literally never canceled an event What we stole student yet saying, because that’s not the world that we’ve ever lived in. So getting to let go of that expectation for yourself, Let’s your staff again. Let’s hold it for themselves. You know? And I think more deeply creates unauthentic relationship where staff could say, wow, Amy openly admitted that she had no idea what she was doing. Now, I don’t feel as much pressure to say I don’t know what I’m doing. Can you help? You know, and

[00:28:52.24] spk_2:
coming from that creates, I think, builds confidence in the team that can. None of us knows now, but collective 20

[00:28:59.63] spk_4:
four hours later, collectively, we figured out

[00:29:02.08] spk_2:
we’re gonna figure it out. Yeah,

[00:29:03.39] spk_4:
Yeah, totally. I think it builds a lot of the like resilience muscles, you know, because people have experienced Whoa, I’m up against the wall. I don’t know what to dio. We set out loud that we don’t know what to do. We came up with a plan together, we implemented the plan. Look, now we’re moving forward, Okay? Next time I’m up against that wall of I don’t know, I can say, Oh, I’ve been here before Like I have the muscle memory to say, Hey, like, even faster this time I’m gonna raise the flag that I don’t know what to do. And I need help, you know? And it cuts down on all that shirt, You know, Um and it makes it less emotionally trying, I think because you’ve already done it Waas, you know, And now you could say, Oh, it wasn’t like this. It wasn’t Is that as I thought? So it’s not gonna sting when I say, hey, I don’t really know what

[00:29:47.89] spk_3:
to do. Yeah, through

[00:29:49.37] spk_2:
that NTC cancellation in 21. Wait,

[00:30:00.54] spk_4:
do anything now? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:30:01.74] spk_6:
Um let’s talk a

[00:30:28.89] spk_2:
little about self care, as as a leader Teoh to be authentic and vulnerable. Um, I think there are things you have to do for yourself when you’re when you’re not. You’re not the CEO. Um, how do you know if you think about it explicitly is I’m gonna take care of myself. you probably don’t. That sounds that sounds too. I e take care of myself so I can take care of intent and the technology in the non profit space now. But

[00:31:38.30] spk_4:
I think about it. More regeneration. You know, whether I need to have energy again for tomorrow. Or sometimes I’m looking at my calendar for the day, and I think, like, what do I need to have the energy I need for for those other meetings I see coming up, Like, I might see that there’s a meeting that I know is gonna take a lot, you know, And there I’m sure many people listening to this understand, like sometimes you wake up and you look at your calendar you like, how do I have literally eight hours straight of back to back meetings like this is not a human’s schedule. So I will bump some of those meetings and give myself okay. I think I need this pacing. I think I’m gonna need a break before this other, you know, discussion or whatever. Um, and move those meetings, but so there’s like the tactical calendar management. I really do think it’s self care if you are setting yourself up to have days that aren’t sustainable. You’re not gonna make it through, you know? And yes, we all have demands on our time, But we’re also in charge of our time and we can say actually, have two minute insisted I’m gonna be present with you. So why should we even bother talking? You know, let’s move to me.

[00:31:42.81] spk_2:
You are in control of your own calendar.

[00:33:24.54] spk_4:
Yeah, and the other thing that I have found, at least for me, is having a really strong meditation. Practice helps on a daily or multiple times a day place because for me and you know, this is just what works for me and my personality and my mind, this doesn’t like prescriptive. And of course, if you don’t do this, something’s wrong. But for me being able to sit with how I’m feeling with how I’m reflecting on actions or conversations, being able to like, kind of come home and be accountable to myself is the hardest judge. It’s a lot easier, I think, people, I think it’s easier for folks that I work with our relationships with Teoh Teoh, give me a pass out of things that I know. I’m gonna be harder on myself than someone else. What? I think that’s true for many of us, right? We’re always our harshest critic, so accepting that in creating space where I’m really just sitting with myself and having to accept and let go or process or or make a plan for something has helped me tremendously because I can then let go of something instead of, you know, kind of keeping it in the doctor, my mind haunting May as I move forward, I could say, actually, like, clearly that didn’t go the way I wanted it to go. I wasn’t the version of myself I wanted to be. And, you know, there’s been whatever restoration I’ve apologized or I’ve talked to that person. But that piece is done, and the peace with myself is still there. And using meditation as a process for kind of accepting myself on letting those things go has has really created a lot of space, I think, for growth in my in myself and in my job,

[00:33:36.34] spk_2:
its authenticity with yourself. Yeah, comfort with yourself.

[00:34:06.24] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, And I think the biggest lesson honestly is, except like I’m someone who loves to learn. I think that if you already know everything about what you’re doing, you’re probably quite bored. You know, I’m glad that I show up to work and like what I do, What I have to do today. Let’s get this out. You know, that feels great. It’s like I get to stretch every day. Um, but it also means that I have to learn things the hard way, you know, because I didn’t already know them. And so having that meditation practice, just sit with myself and say like, it’s OK that I didn’t know that it’s okay that I learned it in a real rough way, you know, and and really think about what? Out of that experience I did learn and back to what we were saying earlier. Like all of those pieces of acceptance and acknowledgement and and reflection kind of get filtered in to building a stronger and stronger gut, you know, so that the next time I’m in that situation, I can hear and listen and say, Oh, I know what’s happening here. Like I’ve got all those little puzzle pieces telling me this is the same as that one time, you know and know how to move forward in the moment,

[00:34:57.24] spk_2:
I feel like leaving it there. Is there anything? Is there anything you wanna you want to leave our listeners with?

[00:35:36.84] spk_4:
I guess I would say, Of course, everything I’ve shared is my own experience in reflection, and we’re all different people. But if there’s part of you that’s wishing that you had done something differently or could be more vulnerable with your staff, or just operate Maurin relationship with the people that you collaborate with, you can just start doing that. There doesn’t have to be like announcement that’s rolled out that today you will start, you know, operating differently or communicating differently. You don’t You don’t need to save it because you’ve operated a certain way. You have to stay in that way like we’re humans, and we’re meant to change and evolve and grow. So if you want to be more open, just start being more open. Even if it feels awkward at first. You’ll get better at it cause your practice, you know, and then you can can have that be your default,

[00:36:08.08] spk_2:
every sample ward. Love it. Thank you CEO and our social media, social media and technology contributor and you’ll find her at a me R s Ward. Thank you very much.

[00:36:11.93] spk_4:
Thank you, tony.

[00:36:17.33] spk_2:
So good to talk to you. Yeah, like here. Keep

[00:36:17.65] spk_1:
taking care. Yeah. Keep taking care of yourself.

[00:36:19.83] spk_4:
Yes. Stay well.

[00:36:22.12] spk_2:
You too.

[00:39:28.11] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that you can count on and that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. Take 1/3 breath. I’m tripling down on my relax ation advice. It is not merely okay for you to put yourself first at some time each day. It’s essential you have to do it. Make time for yourself each day. Make it the same time each day. If that helps you remember to do it. Hopefully you don’t have to forget you don’t forget that you come first sometime. But I understand working through your in a you’re gonna flow. I understand that. So maybe making it a definite set time. Each day helps you to put aside that time for yourself. But you’re being asked to do stuff that you hadn’t done before in ways and in a place, your home. But with, you know, circumstances around that you haven’t been asked before. And if you have Children, then you’re being asked to do all this while your kids are home. It takes toll on you, so you need to take time for yourself to rejuvenate its not just relaxing. It’s rejuvenating its recovering time recovery time. So please take that time for yourself. For me, I go outside. Um, like I said earlier, I don’t know if you can hear the ocean in the background, but it’s there. Um, I got this ocean across the street every day. I wake up it ZX still there, so I go outside 2030 minutes. Maybe it’s Ah, lunch, uh, or just sitting. If it’s not nice enough outside, then I sit inside and have lunch inside, looking out of the ocean or just watching sitting on the sofa watching. So whatever it is for you, you may not have a notion. Ah, what can you do for yourself. A walk, a trip to a park? Uh, it may be It may be listening to music. Um, if that’s if that’s good for you, whatever it is that can help you to rejuvenate Recover, do it. Take the time for yourself each day, please. That is tony. Stick to now. It’s time for donor advised funds with Maria. Simple.

[00:39:45.22] spk_6:
My pleasure to welcome back Maria. Simple. You know who she is? She’s the Prospect Finder and our Prospect research contributor. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at the Prospect Finder. Reassemble. Welcome back.

[00:39:47.12] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. Good to be here.

[00:40:22.91] spk_6:
Yes. Well, I’m sorry you can’t be with me at the beach. I don’t know if the video is gonna turn out okay, but I just decided that any schmoe could record on zoom and put an ocean background, uh, behind them. But, uh, any Schmo can’t just walk to the beach and get unauthentic ocean background. So I’ve got one good using card. I’m tired of being in just any Schmo. No, I’m breaking out now. No, no, no. Most smiles. You know, most smoke for may. You’re doing a okay, right?

[00:40:24.71] spk_3:
We’re doing just fine. Thank you. Yeah. Like you were blessed to live near near the water and can get out for a beautiful walk. Clear your head and get some fresh air.

[00:41:05.01] spk_6:
Yeah, I’m looking East, Uh, in your direction. Right now, you’re several miles up or over, actually, not up, but, uh, looking east. I’m looking in your direction. Nice point. Puffy clouds you got there. So we’re talking about donor advised funds. What? Yeah, you know, they’ve been around for years or nothing new? Uh, no, that it could be a source of headache for non profits. Why do you feel like now is a good time to talk about it? Well, you know, I’ve been hearing a

[00:41:38.77] spk_3:
lot of discussion about them recently, and I think that, um, about sure if that’s because in this period of cove, it a lot of people are using their donor advised funds to make some contributions to organizations to help them out. But I started doing a little bit of digging to see really just how large feet I’m going to say the industry because the come and what I found was this report that’s put out annually by something called the National Philanthropic Trust. And they dio a donor advised fund report every year. And I couldn’t believe when I saw that the, um the rapid growth that they’ve had, that they had an 86% increase in contributions in the last five years to donor advised funds.

[00:42:02.40] spk_6:
Okay, that’s money. That’s money into donor advised funds. How about money coming out of them getting into charities hands

[00:42:50.68] spk_3:
so that that number was 23.42 billion with a B. No, I feel very significant number. And so, anyway, it’s just something that I thought we hadn’t covered really in the show and something that we probably shouldn’t ignore. Um, it’s really vexing for fundraisers for prospect researchers because, um, donors will often set these up as a way to perhaps give Anonymous anonymously in some cases, although, according to Fidelity, about 90% of donors go ahead and say, you know, release my name and contact information to the non profit when I make this gift. So I thought it was something we could at least explore talking about.

[00:43:34.80] spk_6:
Yeah, I think vexing is ah, good way to describe it, because I’ve been hearing this for years, that charities get frustrated when ah, get these gifts and they they have to then follow up with the company of the administrator for the for the of the fund and and plead for donor information, sometimes to get it. Sometimes they don’t wait. You just said about ability. Um, I don’t know that older people I know all the times don’t do that because we’re hearing these frustrations for years. So, uh, all right, so you got some ideas about what we can we can do to overcome these vexations?

[00:45:42.01] spk_3:
Yes. So I thought we talked about some prospecting. Resource is, you know, to do some proactive prospecting. Obviously, if you have the name of the donor advised fund, you would do some additional research on it. But you can also, um, just try and do some proactive prospecting. Your resource is you can use for free. Um, and fee based resource is as well. So let’s start with free, right? You can certainly try and Google, right? You can google the ah donor advised fund and maybe your state and see how maney come up in maybe articles or listing somewhere in a state listing. But I thought guidestar had some some pretty good information for for the nonprofits to start doing some proactive prospecting and list building of donor advised funds that might be in their in their area. Um, so one example that I that I pulled waas um, I just went ahead and searched just on the term donor. Advised I left off the word fund. I just you know, sometimes less is more when you’re doing these these types of searches. Okay, So I typed in the word donor advised in guidestar. Um, and this is under a free account, and I, uh, down nationwide, it came back with 527 search results. Um, I was able to sort by gross receipts. That was interesting to me. Just to kind of see, you know, largest to smallest type. Um, and top top number one, As you might expect, we’ve already mentioned it with fidelity. Um, so number one came up its fidelity number two Jewish Communal Fund number three, Goldman Sachs, Philip Philanthropy Fund number four, Silicon Valley Community Foundation and number five. You guess number your

[00:45:42.97] spk_6:
your community trust.

[00:45:48.99] spk_3:
Actually, no, it’s Ah, vanguard. Okay. I want to be able

[00:45:52.72] spk_6:
to guess that New York community profound spotless that for? Well, I just want to stay. Keep the guests. That newest community trust

[00:45:57.81] spk_3:
actually didn’t even make top 10.

[00:46:19.23] spk_6:
Alright, Alright, alright. So if we have these, all right, we have we have We know that we know all the players now. 520 some, uh, but there still is. The individuals control the money in the funds. What? What do we do now that we know the names of the funds? So one of the things

[00:47:11.38] spk_3:
that you could consider doing is seeing if the fund is somewhere nearby or whatever. Try and, um, you try and develop a relationship with some of the personnel at at the fund itself, right? So these would be employees don’t eyes front and not necessarily the family. Ultimately, if you see the family’s name attached so it might say something like, um, the Maria Simple Fund at Fidelity. Right? That might be the formal name that ends up coming through. So then you would research on that person’s name as much of a hand and using a lot of the research talked about here on the show minimum Coble, especially first time you’ve ever received a gift from EPA. Wow. That’s why.

[00:47:31.06] spk_6:
Wait. All right, So So you’re saying you first you search the fund in searching the funds and guidestar individual names come up. Is that what you’re saying? Well, I’m gonna be o

[00:47:54.88] spk_3:
of the big funds, but the smaller don’t recognised may have the person’s name as well, right? So you want to make sure that you’re just doing some in depth research, So even on the big ones you’re able, Teoh, you’re able to see a list of gifts, and they give how they paid out. Even look at every gift. Fidelity’s the Fidelity investment charitable gift, but is make, um and say you’ll have

[00:48:37.87] spk_6:
Okay. Okay, So you going todo and that. Okay, you look at the 9 90 of that funding. You can see the gifts that came from there. Right. Okay, right away. That’s down for Ah, a couple minutes before that. Was the Beach patrol going by one. Make sure everybody everybody knows this is an authentic background. I don’t want to be any any, uh, questioning of my integrity on background. That was the beach patrol girl by Okay, um, all right, So? Well, yeah, you could. You could start a cross match The larger fund names that you find with your with your own. Crn You could do that too,

[00:49:17.21] spk_3:
right? Right. Absolutely, Absolutely. Okay. Um, and and so, you know, like I said, for freight, somewhat limited as to what you can search for. One of the fee based resource is if I might just mention that people can take a look at and also get a free trial to, um is I wave, so you could definitely try it. Try that one out. Um, I had done a search nationwide to see just on the terminology advised fund and yielded over 16,000 results. Now, some were duplicates, right? So some were mentioned with months. Um, I just

[00:49:28.74] spk_6:
What? What is I wave? What is that? What does that have to do?

[00:49:33.17] spk_3:
So it is, um, It’s similar to, you know, we’ve talked about some of these other fee based resource is before, like, wealth and so forth. So it’s a tool that prospect researchers will use. That is a fee based resource. Um, and so you’re gonna get your yield a lot more surgeries, adults, and you can manipulate the data and export spread meats and so forth.

[00:50:03.61] spk_6:
So you could also use waiting for individual prospect research. Well, yes, absolutely. Get get out what people would get for their see if you have a struck tie with any idea what the seas are. Do you remember?

[00:50:13.60] spk_3:
Um, I don’t know right now, You know, I usually don’t like to try and get into that on your show because it lives forever. Right on your

[00:50:21.56] spk_6:
Well, yeah, I was, I would say it was from 2020 or something. Okay.

[00:50:25.74] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. So I would recommend because normally what will happen is you’re gonna Also it’s a screening tool. So you could also do it on entire screening of your database. So usually they’ll bundle it in, Um, you get a screening done, and then access to the to the search tools for, like, a year or something like that. So very often the fees are gonna be based on your dad.

[00:51:13.70] spk_1:
Time for our last break. Turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through this Corona virus cacophony. And you want to be heard other times beyond this. Of course, they know exactly what to do to make that happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot CEO, you’ve got but loads more time for donor advised funds.

[00:51:23.90] spk_6:
Okay, so you’re you’re against your cross referencing your search results with your own C r m.

[00:52:04.04] spk_3:
Right? Right. So, you know, I like the fact that you can exported into the spreadsheet again. You cross check it with your own C R M. Maybe circulated with Lauren Development Committee are other staff members And have a discussion. I started getting curious, you know, out of all those house. Well, how many of those funds donor advised funds are in North Carolina, right where we’re both residing and actually tries to order 177. Results from Dr Guys funds. It came up just in the last five years or so. Um, so

[00:52:08.25] spk_6:
that is it. Right? That doesn’t sound like very many. 177 donor advised fund gif ts the whole state of North Carolina for five years.

[00:52:16.56] spk_3:
No, those were a donor Advised funds.

[00:52:25.44] spk_6:
All those in the funds, not the gift from the OK, Those aren’t the individual accounts in the funds. Okay, There are almost 600 funds in North Carolina. OK, got you

[00:52:29.83] spk_3:
170 7

[00:52:34.65] spk_6:
177 OK? Yes. Yeah.

[00:53:13.42] spk_3:
Anyway, there certainly something Teoh look for. Especially if you’re trying to reach out to more regionalize families. And, you know, that might be concentrating there. They’re getting in your particular state because then you can see exactly where the gifts on. You know, the types of organizations that A that the owner of my sons have been looking for example. So you can see, you know, there that the gift that here was here, the gift was made. Ah, you can see the where the gift was made, the type of non profit that it is. It’s you. No, you can’t. Yes, You get a lot of data.

[00:53:39.99] spk_6:
Okay. So you could see the charities that they gave Teoh for those similar to your your work. Okay. Exactly. So maybe so. Maybe I waves worth the extra extra money. Whatever it iss. All right, just, uh I wave dot com or yeah, yeah. Oh, um, so couple other things

[00:54:44.24] spk_3:
I wanted to let everybody know about, um I learned that there’s a site e a f not award. Okay, DF direct and what they what you can do there is. It’s a great tool for non process use, and it facilitates giving, um, through donor advised funds. There’s a widget that you can add as a non profit chili gordo so that, as people are, you know, maybe research on their own and, you know, for non profits to donate to in their community, if they stumbled on your organization in their own search, right, maybe they’re using GuideStar or another similar tool to research nonprofits. If you come up and they get to your website, why not make it is easiest possible to connect directly from your website to their donor advised funds. So it’s a widget that connects don’t raise funds and to the donors.

[00:54:52.74] spk_6:
All right, so people are browsing your site. They can click on this and give

[00:54:53.29] spk_3:
him a

[00:55:01.74] spk_6:
group, right? But they have to have a donor advised fund at one of the one of the entities that coordinates or that’s affiliate with this ridge. It right?

[00:55:17.96] spk_3:
Yes, but so many of them are right now, so it’s definitely something that that actually was. I was doing my research for this show that came up multiple. Bless you.

[00:55:19.24] spk_6:
Told you I said I was gonna sneeze, but you’re that’s you’re talking.

[00:55:23.93] spk_3:
So it definitely is worth looking at that site and seeing if that’s a widget. You may want to add to your own website because it’s gonna cost anything.

[00:55:45.67] spk_6:
Okay, Okay. And they’re affiliated with some of the top ones. Okay. All right. Um, you could also be talking to your You know, you could always reach out to your donors. Um, through Europe, you’re here. Whatever your channels are to remind them that they can make their own donor advised fund distribution. You know, technically, it’s a recommendation. But 99.9% of the recommendations get accepted. Approved. But, you know, you could just be directly reminding donors that they can give to you through their donor advised fund.

[00:56:09.13] spk_3:
That’s right. That’s right. So make sure that Burbage is on your website and any other marketing materials and communications that you have.

[00:56:24.73] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. Just remind you people. Um okay. I mean, that that was an easy one. Just what else? Ah, you’ve been thinking about this longer than I have what else will?

[00:56:28.98] spk_3:
So the other thing, too that I think some people forget to ask for is to set up recurring gif ts to your organization. So if you’re already getting some money from a donor advised fund, why not approach those that family and see if they’d be interested in setting up recurring donations to your organization? Supposed to a one once a year gift. So very often it’s very easy for the fund administrator to set that up for you. Um, so that would be a great way to bring in some additional, more consistent cash flow here, or there you

[00:57:02.20] spk_6:
go. Yeah, right. Sustaining sustainer gifts from donor advised funds. Okay.

[00:57:07.97] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. Um, and then, you know, finally, you want to think about success successor gifts, So you can have, um the organization can be named as his successor after the donor dies. So you you know, as you know, tony and plan giving and so forth the language has to be set up properly and so forth, so that might be a discussion to have with people a swell to breathe. The organization to be named as the successor to the fund

[00:57:43.01] spk_6:
Okay. Very good. Just wait. Same way donors can name your organization to there as a beneficiary of their life insurance policy or pension IRA. Any any. Any financial asset with, ah, people on death or a transfer on death closets called. But you don’t have to know that. Just you have to know this is a death beneficiary possible and that can apply to your donors. Donor advised funds as well.

[00:58:08.29] spk_3:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.

[00:58:13.62] spk_6:
All right. Very simple. Cool. Um, anything else I don’t want to cut. You don’t cut you off? No,

[00:58:16.80] spk_3:
I I’m looking at my last Avenger. I’m looking at my notes, and I think that I think we covered all the bases that I want to touch upon And, you know, just making sure that people understand that even though they can be vexing, there are some things that you can do to research them and to build relationships and definitely thanking and stewarding those that are already donating to you through a through a donor advice fund.

[00:59:53.37] spk_6:
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Don’t don’t be put off by these things And there’s enormous amounts of money in them. Is enormous amounts of money coming from them to charities. Um, everything you said? I agree. Just like yeah, they’re not going to Calgary. Oh, yeah, you can’t be. You can’t be put off by the vexations. You may not find out whoever who every gift came from, but you can make efforts best efforts and you’ll find out a good number of them. And you will be able to thank your donors. I remember, you know, and some don’t just want to be anonymous. No, they just don’t want to be. No. So that’s your donor’s choice. It’s not the administrator deliberately frustrating your purpose. Your donors. Some of the donors may just want to be anonymous, and that’s their prerogative. So except that move on to the donors that you can find and thanking and well, solicit for the future. So definitely look into donor advised funds. Don’t be put off by them. There’s enormous wealth in them. There’s enormous wealth coming from them. Okay, Thank you. Very simple. Alright, Maria Sample. She’s the Prospect Finder. The prospect finder dot com our prospect research contributor our doi end of their cheap and free. Uh, you’ll find her at the Prospect Finder. Thanks very much. Foria. Thanks.

[01:00:09.12] spk_3:
Have any good to see you

[01:00:48.58] spk_1:
next week? 20 NTC panels. Most likely if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our

[01:01:28.50] spk_0:
creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff. I did the postproduction Sam Liebowitz managed The Stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. In this music is by Scots. He was the next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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[00:00:14.14] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:16.74] spk_0:
radio big non profit ideas for the

[00:00:19.67] spk_2:
other 95%.

[00:00:44.44] spk_0:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown in taquito amino acid E mia If you brought me down with the sappy idea that you missed today’s show CEO chair relationship, your CEO and board chair need to forge and maintain a strong partnership. Alex Counts shows us how he’s a consultant and founder of Grameen Foundation on

[00:00:48.09] spk_2:
Tony’s Take. Two planned giving for the decade were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:18.14] spk_0:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Now let’s, uh, meet Alex counts Pleasure to welcome him. He’s adjunct professor of public policy at the University of Maryland and a non profit consultant. He’s founder of Grameen Foundation, which has grown to become a leading international humanitarian

[00:01:31.93] spk_2:
organization. He’s got a book Changing

[00:01:41.95] spk_0:
the World Without Losing Your Mind. Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship, which is a chronicle of philanthropy. Editor’s pick. He’s at Alex counts dot

[00:01:47.38] spk_2:
com and at Alex counts. What was your name again? Alex counts. Thank

[00:01:49.06] spk_4:
you. It’s great to be here.

[00:01:53.22] spk_2:
Pleasure. Thank you for coming into the city on the studio. Um, tell us about the founding

[00:01:58.65] spk_0:
of Grameen Foundation. Interesting roots in Bangladesh.

[00:02:00.69] spk_4:
Yeah, I was is a college student. I was taken with the work Mohammad Yunus was doing to empower the destitute women of Bangladesh through micro credit, and he would go on to win the Nobel Prize. But I kind of it was Grameen Bank. That was Grameen Bank. And I had this vision in college of If we could take his model and exported to other countries where there is poverty, that would be could be a real breakthrough. It was simplistic, but and I But it was basically a good idea. And so I went in, apprenticed with him for about a decade in Bangladesh, and then I Then I said at one point, it’s time to start kind of an international hub for helping people apply the Grameen Bank ideas to other countries. And so he said, Well, here’s $6000 which I thought was a lot of money to start an organization with. It wasn’t but we were just kind of on a wing and a prayer started What became growing foundation in 97 on Guy was completely unprepared and all sorts of ways to run a non profit and start one. But we went forward and it worked out.

[00:03:07.30] spk_0:
You you say sort of hastily because you’ve got a lot going on. You had a lot going on 10 years living in Bangladesh. You fluent in de she Bengali Bangla. Is it Bangalore? Bengali? Is it? It’s It’s

[00:03:11.32] spk_4:
Bengali and English. It’s Bangla in being Ali.

[00:03:14.13] spk_3:
Okay, Um,

[00:03:15.10] spk_2:
I’ve been

[00:03:21.23] spk_0:
there. I spent I spent two weeks between Bangladesh just in Dhaka and Sir Lanka, which is also a beautiful country. Yeah,

[00:03:23.50] spk_2:
my sense of Bangladesh

[00:03:24.46] spk_0:
was ah, lot of poverty and a lot of very hardworking people. Thes tiny businesses in the micro stalls is I’m thinking of old DACA, but people working hard and you know, whatever their niche was, uh I

[00:03:39.12] spk_2:
saw a lot of hard working, dedicated people,

[00:04:10.25] spk_4:
Absolutely both in the cities and in the rural countryside where I spent a lot of my time and learn. That’s why I really learned Bengali well, but it is my mentor and board chair, Susan Davis. So I met in Bangladesh. She was a Ford Foundation representative and I was, Ah, Fulbright scholar initially, and she said, Listen, Alex, she’s a lot of these pithy statement She said, In a country that doesn’t have enough jobs, by far doesn’t have a social safety net. You have two choices. You work for yourself tiny undercapitalized business in most cases or you starve. And so people, whether they’re intramural ability, is robust or more limited. Starvation is not a great option. So people try to start these tiny businesses.

[00:04:22.68] spk_0:
That’s when I saw yeah, s O. That’s the micro micro lending. And then Mohammed as and all I can imagine, what someone could do with it isn’t even $1000. Is that too much?

[00:05:00.83] spk_4:
So the loans for the first decade of Grameen were typical. Loan was about $70. So your way you’re buying, you know, five chickens and you know you know how to raise chickens. But you never had more money to have more than one u five chickens. You sell the eggs, you pay off the loan with the sales of the eggs. And at the end of the year, you have five chickens that air your asset maybe more assets than you’ve ever had a productive assets you’ve ever had in your life. And Mohammad Yunus is in sight. Was but build a banking system that can actually be viable through making $70 loans and then $100 loans if they pay back and later, larger amounts on and and And that was the essence of his brilliant innovation.

[00:05:15.94] spk_0:
And you were, You were how many years that Green Foundation as founder and CEO

[00:05:21.27] spk_4:
18 years s. I ran it for its 1st 18 years. It was a It was a fantastic ride. And again when we finally started, get some headway is when I realized that a couple things that I need to be fundraiser in chief. That wasn’t something I could delegate and that I needed to craft a very important relationship with my board share.

[00:05:40.90] spk_2:
And those

[00:05:42.86] spk_4:
two insights probably where the, you know, helped us reach kind of escape velocity and get it to erase 10 $2025 million in the year, as opposed to remain a little tiny, non

[00:05:51.46] spk_0:
profit. What a skilled guest you bring in the board. The board chair relationship so smoothly. So not like the boorish host of the show. We’re just abruptly changed course.

[00:06:04.48] spk_2:
All right, so, uh, yeah, so we’re here to talk about Well, you know, we’ll shout

[00:06:08.30] spk_0:
out your book a couple times, uh, changing the world without losing your mind. But

[00:06:12.67] spk_2:
we want to focus

[00:06:23.81] spk_0:
on something that I saw an article that you had written in The Chronicle of Philanthropy about the CEO board chair relationship. Susan Davis was one of your one of your chair. Was she your first? She’s my

[00:06:28.99] spk_4:
third chair. But when we finally I finally got the relationship right was with her, and I give her most of the credit for that. I kind of fumbled it with the 1st 2 board chairs, mainly my fault on dhe. She helped me kind of figure out how to make that just a magical relationship

[00:06:43.90] spk_0:
on dhe critical to the success of an organization you saw Grameen on. You felt it. You saw it and felt it in your relationship with Susan. You saw the organization benefiting and you felt it personally.

[00:07:44.00] spk_4:
I had an ally. I wasn’t so alone. She gained my trust on She would sometimes, you know, step in and do things that I was either incapable of doing or just didn’t have the skills. I mean, it’s just a perfect relationship on. And, you know, she wasn’t the prototypical white male businessman in their sixties with a lot of money, but she brought other assets, and and then, you know, we were ableto have a more traditional board chairs coming after her. But she was in the roll for six and 1/2 years, and she, you know, the the article you mentioned in The Chronicle of Philanthropy. The origin of that was I was giving a talk at The Chronicle about my book and about how I went from a completely underprepared non profit executive director, succeeding on some level. And I just kept coming back to my relation with Susan on then the couple of four chairs that followed her, and they said, Would you write an article on that on that you you mentioned so many times you’re talking? I said I’d be thrilled to, and It was a pretty narrow topic, but it got a good response and got me here to be talking with you.

[00:08:10.38] spk_0:
Your life has led you to this moment. All points of it’s all downhill from here. Pretty much non profit radio. I feel bad after our lunch, then

[00:08:11.79] spk_4:
downwardly mobile life.

[00:08:13.24] spk_0:
I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Uh,

[00:08:19.52] spk_2:
all right. So let’s talk about, um Well, the let’s get into some of your some

[00:08:22.27] spk_0:
of your advice around this around this relationship, you siphoned it down into 10. I don’t know if we’ll get time for 10 because we want to talk a little about Cem Cem, General governance. But

[00:08:32.03] spk_2:
why don’t we, uh why don’t we just

[00:08:39.14] spk_0:
tease the 1st 1? We got a minute before before first break about, um, respect the chair needs to earn respect if that the

[00:09:14.59] spk_4:
chair is seen is just a kind of a defender of the CEO, uhm, and someone who’s just tryingto make his or her life easy and keep the bored out of their hair or in any other way doesn’t really have the respect to the board. Then his or her job is much harder because the board chair is kind of a liaison between the staff and the executive director and the rest of the board. And that board share has to earn the respect of both parties in order. Play that bridging role effectively. And Susan did it. Sometimes people do it by writing $1,000,000 checks, but Susan didn’t have that at her disposal of time. So she did it in other ways but was able to get earn the respect of me and the staff. But very importantly, the the rest of the board.

[00:09:24.62] spk_0:
All right, I’ve seen board chairs that were wealthy and wrote big checks and still didn’t have the respect of the board. So if there’s respect based on that, I think it’s kind of shallow and it doesn’t necessarily follow even. Okay, let’s take our first

[00:09:38.40] spk_2:
break wegner-C.P.As They go beyond the numbers. They’ve got videos, effective governance.

[00:09:43.61] spk_0:
For starters. We’re gonna talk a little about that toward the end of the show. Um,

[00:09:47.70] spk_2:
also i nine

[00:09:51.74] spk_0:
tips. If you happen to have immigrant employees, they’ve also got a video on high impact grant

[00:09:53.83] spk_2:
proposals, sexual harassment awareness, way beyond the numbers. This is not just

[00:10:16.94] spk_0:
your average accountancy, for God’s sake, on other videos, you gotta wegner-C.P.As dot com, Click Resource Is and recorded events. I just got late breaking news that Amy Sample Ward will be calling in around the bottom of the hour. Onda will spend about five minutes talking about 20 NTC, the 2020 non profit technology conference, which is in coming up in March in Baltimore. So I know you wanna hear her at the bottom of the hour. Um, in the meantime, let’s go back to ah CEO chair relationship.

[00:10:33.01] spk_2:
Yes. Oh, I don’t I don’t think

[00:10:40.81] spk_0:
money first necessarily creates respect, And if it does, I think it’s a kind of a shallow Well, it’s one

[00:10:42.10] spk_4:
thing to earn. The respect is the board share. You have to show that you’re invested. Ah, and so Susan would show that by showing up prepared by doing her homework. Talking with Helio money and writing a check that is meaningful for someone and meaningful for the organization is another way. But you’re right. It’s no way incomplete. You need to be a fair minded. You need to kind of promote the right kind of dialogue of the board level craft agendas that makes sense that you know, Don’t don’t let the board becoming their micromanaging or rubber stamp, but occupy that really nice middle ground. Yeah, it’s All I’m saying is, is that it’s possible to earn the respect of the board, even with bored with some wealthy people. If you’re yourself aren’t personally wealthy by doing other things on that, some people I think some people just regard it is you know you need the board. Share is just absolute mandatory to be made your wealthiest person, the board and I might have thought that. But I saw that. It doesn’t need to be.

[00:11:38.93] spk_0:
Yeah, I would reject

[00:11:42.13] spk_3:
that. Um, by

[00:11:42.47] spk_0:
the same token, you do want the board chair tohave the back of the CEO in times of crisis. Well,

[00:11:56.76] spk_4:
right? I mean, people, you know, have all non profit CEOs if, unless they’re completely risk of hers, make mistakes, mismanaged things mismanage external relationships on dhe, you know, it’s it’s, I think when our new chairs in place, how they react to the first time that happens on whether they both publicly and privately support the CEO on dhe make them feel secure in the aftermath of their bungle eyes. Probably a lot will determine. A lot of everything will go after that on Susan. You know, a time would come maybe six months later, where Susan would talk with me and her successors, who are also very good and say, you know, that thing that you did in six months ago? They didn’t work out, you know? What did you learn from it? Andi? Are we Do we have things in place to prevent that from happening again? But at the time when you’re at your low point and at risk of making further poor decisions in the aftermath of trying to cover up or deal with one bad decision, having the board share be empathetic and supportive and not pointing a finger is I found a central

[00:12:54.10] spk_0:
is the board is looking to them for leadership. You know howto way still behind this CEO or are we not?

[00:13:19.11] spk_4:
How do we digest this, right? And then that’s where the board chair’s leadership did not gloss over. It does not say this mistake was meaningless, but also not to say panic, but to say I’m on top of this. I’m gonna disclose to you the board what’s going on in a level appropriate to your role. I’m working with the E D. And

[00:13:19.32] spk_2:
now if it’s

[00:13:19.72] spk_4:
a life endangering mistake for the organization that it might go under,

[00:13:24.10] spk_2:
then I think

[00:14:07.87] spk_4:
you need to take a little different tact. But if it’s just a setback and embarrassing though it may be, you know you need to really inspire confidence in everyone. But also just, you know, to get the best out of the CEO of the executive director. You know, first and foremost is have them feel like you’re their ally, not someone who’s trying to, you know, embarrassed. And I’ve seen this. I’ve served on boards for all you have and others listeners have board shares to whatever. There’s a mistake. They feel it’s kind of a public embarrassment for them, and their job is to avoid blame themselves. Maybe they have public standing, and then that that has on and particularly that could kind of poison the relationship with the E D. You know, nothing flat. Yeah.

[00:14:09.12] spk_2:
Do you? You have a

[00:14:20.00] spk_0:
preference for executive director versus CEO? I’ve had guests prefer the CEO. Others say it doesn’t really matter much. Do you have ah preference, you

[00:15:06.71] spk_4:
know, in the organization’s I’ve served in. It’s been I’ve been the president and CEO. There’s some executive directors that aren’t the chief executive officer that sometimes is the chair in executive chair. That’s interesting. So Esso and again I’m not. I’m not a super techno person on this, but I think smaller nonprofits tend to be. You talk about AIDS on, and sometimes they don’t have a vote at the board level, whereas in large organizations, that tends to be a president CEO with a non executive chair. And I’m just, you know, and even when grooming Foundation was small, somehow we adopted that nomenclature, which at the time I didn’t care about or think it all about. I was just trying to raise enough money to pay this, you know, costs the next month. But anyway, that’s that. That’s what we adopted. Yeah,

[00:15:10.49] spk_2:
okay, but now you have the

[00:15:13.66] spk_0:
luxury of looking back and snickering. That’s right! And admitting that the first to board chairs the relationships warrant as robust, as supportive as they could have been made

[00:15:22.92] spk_2:
at the time,

[00:15:26.10] spk_4:
I viewed the board and managing my relation with the chair, and fundraising is kind of necessary. Evils not, is not as something to be the cornerstone of building the organization. That was That was my fundamental mistake until I finally got it right.

[00:15:37.80] spk_2:
Let’s talk a little about

[00:15:46.84] spk_0:
selection of, ah, board chair. Do you like to see it come from? The board would like to see. I’ve seen organizations that have a assistant assistant chair, rice chair, vice chair, executive vice chair, and then it’s presumed that they’re gonna move into the chair. You like to see that kind of

[00:15:56.58] spk_2:
ladder? Well, first,

[00:16:44.61] spk_4:
I think every rule in terms of building aboard you should be, you know, willing almost every really should be willing to break. So one point. We had a very well known, very wealthy person joining our board, and we thought about installing them his chair for more or less the moment that joined the board. And that might have worked. But we didn’t didn’t come to pass, but in general I think you want someone of your chair who served on your board with distinction for, you know, three or four years at least. I like the idea of a vice chair, but I’m a little out made out of the mainstream on this I don’t think that vice chair should necessarily be the chair elect. I’d like to see a vice chair in that role really perform so that they earn the chair. Roll a za po. And that’s why sometimes having to vice chairs, I’ve seen that work nicely. But oftentimes the vice chair is

[00:16:47.08] spk_0:
the two vice chairs are sort of competing to be that really like we friendly competition for the chair shit. German ship.

[00:16:53.76] spk_6:
It’s a

[00:16:56.00] spk_4:
secondary aspect. Yeah, it’s Ah, a TTE The point We had our vice chair on the West Coast and I thought that having a second vice chair who was quite busy when entered a And

[00:17:05.04] spk_5:
that’s what one

[00:17:05.41] spk_4:
things that happens. You can’t predict a vice Jared chair can enter the role in a semi retirement, have a lot of time to put in. And next thing you know, they’re appointed as happened to me, a CZ the as the CEO of a publicly traded company and their ability to put time in is changed. So we we had a vice chair who was the dean of ah of a university in a university on the West Coast. I said, Well, what if we had a vice chair on the East Coast also to kind of cover this part of the country and on. So that worked.

[00:17:34.62] spk_2:
But in another way, was

[00:17:35.89] spk_4:
a kind of let’s, let’s see, between the two of them, which one of them, you know, is it inspires the confidence of the board on shows the commitment that would make them the ideal. You know, successor chair.

[00:17:48.14] spk_2:
How do you like to

[00:18:10.16] spk_0:
break in? I think my voice just crack. How’d you? 14. Huh? How? Let’s give some authoritative. Ah, tony. Er, how do you like to, uh ah, inaugurate the relationship? New chair? You presumably. As you’re suggesting. You know, if you worked with him 3 to 4 years, So the non new person to you. But I knew in that relationship. You in that position.

[00:18:12.91] spk_2:
How do you like to

[00:18:13.67] spk_0:
kick off the that new relationship? Well,

[00:18:17.02] spk_4:
in an ideal world and running a nonprofit where you never have enough resource is and you’re always trying to cram 14 months of work into 12 months and you can always do this.

[00:18:26.54] spk_2:
But an ideal

[00:18:26.99] spk_4:
world. I’d like to spend a good kind of a good day with the person you know, both with a structured agenda and somewhat unstructured, maybe going to a baseball game together just to really get to know them and bond with them, if that’s possible. On

[00:18:39.97] spk_2:
the other

[00:18:40.21] spk_4:
thing that kind of evolved. This is, you know, I’m thinking back what work is that each board share wanted gonna put their stamp on the their leadership not to not to just contradict or do something different than what the prior wanted done, but

[00:18:55.72] spk_2:
something that

[00:18:56.11] spk_4:
they had seen. Maybe work in another non profit or in the corporate sector. And

[00:18:59.91] spk_2:
I would just

[00:20:59.49] spk_4:
say, unless it didn’t make any sense to me. I said, Let’s let’s do that Let’s you know this person didn’t kind of imposed this idea when they were, say, vice chair, just to give you two examples. You Bob bike Feld, who succeeded Susan in the role he thought that it was. It was a very important from a governess perspective to gather a couple board leaders and the head and our general counsel on me every six months to basically evaluate the performance of each and every board member in person and on, and so and you know when people were doing really well. So well, let’s let’s prepare a resolution commending them at the next meeting. Will we draft that if the person wasn’t referring? Well, well, who’s gonna take them aside? We’ve never done that before. But it was just something he thought you know would work. And I just said, You know, you want to bring that in. This is gonna be one of your signature things that comes in your first year. I’m totally behind it. Let’s make it happen. Or another thing he wanted is for me to bring in that. Susan wasn’t kind of didn’t That wasn’t her style, but it’s like let let Bob lead the way he wants to. And let me not just grudgingly say, OK, I’ll do that if you want, But I think this could be a great idea. And you, Bob also pushed me to write for the first time emergency succession plan, which I embarrassed to say that, you know, 10 years in the Grameen Foundation, I had never even know what that was. But and he said, you know, write, write up a memo for those of your listeners and aren’t aware you know, what should we do if you’re suddenly incapacitated or killed? And and so I put it off for a while, it was more confronting than I thought, but I finally did get it done. And that was something he achieved in his first year. Um, and again I was I was just kind of trusted that that was something of useful. And I put my full attention to kind of implementing a couple of ideas that he had and and when every new board chair came in, they kind of had a few ideas. And I would just unless they sound crazy to me and I I need to get the convinced I would just, you know, not just back from kind of half heartedly, but fully

[00:21:01.64] spk_2:
say some more about

[00:21:02.28] spk_0:
the semi annual board evaluate individual board member evaluation process.

[00:21:07.64] spk_2:
Well, you know,

[00:21:19.90] spk_4:
we would gather on a table. I think we did it a few times. That can recall, and it was no one ever called in. Our vice chair flew in from San Diego for it. We did it in Washington and literally, you know, it was just it was sickness. See,

[00:21:22.95] spk_2:
one of the

[00:21:23.40] spk_4:
things I’ve come to believe that came from Susan. The Before Bob is that term limits are

[00:21:29.14] spk_2:
kind of

[00:21:31.76] spk_4:
a quick fix kind of mandate, and that really what you want board members to do is to is to kind of go through their orientation and

[00:21:37.70] spk_2:
then to go

[00:22:09.31] spk_4:
into a period of what I call High Performance is a board member where they’re giving it their all their money, their time, their reputation, their con connections, etcetera. And then ultimately, all board members, I think, ultimately go into what is called coasting, where they’re just they’re not really giving their all because their interest is in another organization. And so Bob’s this term limits air saying, Well, most people go to coasting after six years, so let them just term out at six years. But the truth is, some people term out. Some people go into that mode after 18 months, and some are going strong in 18 years. So this was a mechanism to just evaluate the kind of the wherein the life cycle was each individual on the board where what should they be commended for? On what should they maybe be taken aside and said, you know, board member ex. You know, if you could get back to performing like you did four years ago in terms of showing up prepared, participating discussions, your committee assignments, raising money, giving money, You know, we think you should re up for the board when your turn comes up. But if not you, maybe not. Ah, and that can’t be done. The blunt instrument of term limits or other things. This

[00:22:42.14] spk_2:
is this. We would

[00:23:01.77] spk_4:
spend 34 hours together evaluating every single person aboard. And how might we support them better. But how might we ask them to support us more? And you can’t? You can’t take a cookie cutter to that. And so it was. It was a pretty rigorous process, but it was. It worked, and it made the team that was at the table. They’re just feel like they were in a position to, and it had them participate differently. This is the vice chair chair of the Governance Committee and the general counsel me in the chair. You know, we would then pay attention. More panel, evaluating each number individually, correct. And

[00:23:17.25] spk_2:
and then once you start

[00:23:54.67] spk_4:
that, then you know, you kind of observe the board in a different way. When you know you’re gonna be six months later doing that again and you start to think, Gosh, might I pull this board member aside even now and commend them or redirect them a little bit even if I’m not the chair? Because I know that this evaluation and it creates a kind of accountability because we told the board that we were doing this. It wasn’t done in secret eso it was rather than have ah, this kind of straitjacket of term limits. We created this kind of culture of accountability, of board that just brought out the best in people. And when their interests moved on, they kind of voluntarily said, You know, this will be my final term and thank you all for whether I served for three years or 13 years on it. Just for me. It worked a lot better.

[00:24:20.39] spk_0:
Your ah contrary and in terms of the mainstream, thinking about board term limits, yes, but you have this important semi annual evaluation as well, so that a CZ your nerves, you said people will either recognize that they’re not performing, or they’ll bluntly be told that they’re not performing TX stations,

[00:24:27.96] spk_4:
right? That’s and it takes effort on

[00:24:29.76] spk_2:
because this is a lot of time

[00:24:30.60] spk_0:
commitment. How big? I’m sure the Grameen board grew over time when you left. How many people, you

[00:24:36.52] spk_6:
know, I like

[00:24:37.33] spk_0:
value waiting. Yeah, I’ve heard of much

[00:25:10.86] spk_4:
smaller and much larger board’s working, although I’m not quite sure how. But I think the optimal number aboard if they’re one of the responsibilities is raising money. The optimal number is between 15 and 20 and that’s what it was for almost the entirety of my time there, I think over 20 you get some negative dynamics, including, you know, people don’t show up. They’re not even noticed because the numbers are too big. And if you get under 15 you know, you really need a lot more fundraising muscle than you unless you just have a bunch of billionaires on the board. And so it was always. It was always in the high teens on, though I gave myself authority to have up to 25 on the bylaws, but gave us authority. But we never we will always, always between 15 and 20 right?

[00:25:23.08] spk_2:
So this is a big time

[00:25:23.82] spk_0:
commitment because Now you’re doing between 30 and 40 evaluations per year because you’re evaluating each person semi annually and several hours devoted to, ah, a conversation with each one twice a

[00:25:46.59] spk_4:
year. And the follow up that you promise, saying they’re there that after each board member would just say so what feedback or what? Commendation or accolade or redirection, Do we need to give this board member based on our discussion and that that would mostly fall to the five of us in the room

[00:26:01.15] spk_0:
and there was implicit in that s o. Some board members are getting commended on brothers or not, but we all know that we’re all being evaluated. So when it comes time for commendations, some names air left out, that’s where it was only,

[00:26:06.05] spk_4:
um, you know, it was

[00:26:06.63] spk_6:
only twice

[00:26:55.17] spk_4:
in our history where we actually had to take a board member side and urged them, not Thio run for re election. So if when this works well, it’s really becomes an informal accountability process where people opt out before they have to be kind of pushed out. And, uh um, and yet you need to be willing to do that if the time comes, and in one case, you know, way took a board member aside and we just said, It’s you know, it’s time for you to step aside and is interesting He said it that years later he told me he said, Well, as mad as hell at the time, but you and the chair were right. I just couldn’t see it then. And eso it’s that magical thing where people basically, whenever there flames, starts to be not so bright for in terms of the, you know, being a champion of the board, they just they know it and they and everyone knows it. And they just say again, Allah, I’ll serve out my term and I’ll step down and again whether that’s three years into their service or 15 years, it’s just based on. Are they giving it their best? And

[00:27:10.43] spk_2:
not

[00:27:10.61] spk_4:
everyone you know people’s interests move on. I mean, it’s a natural human phenomenon. Yeah,

[00:27:17.33] spk_0:
yeah. Very interesting. Interesting process. You mentioned election of board re election of board members. That was that not managed by an executive committee just deciding whether someone would remain Who were the electors, the whole board, the

[00:28:36.84] spk_4:
whole the whole board Now there’s a nominating what we close it in our model. We had both the governance committee that worked on our kind of internal governance, and the nominating committee was merged in the same committee and another boards I’ve been on Those are two separate things and on and, you know, when you only have 15 18 members. There are only so many committees you can have when your larger boards could have more. But yeah, it, in this case, the default was when someone’s three year term came up. Um, you think the default is that they’re gonna be reelected if they want to be. But there is a process that again the governance committee chair is part of that group that is, that meets every six months on day would take what are our discussions and bring them into the governance committee. Um, but Maur, I think that committee was more about adding new people to the board more of the nominating committee, but But ultimately every board meeting or every other board meeting, if someone’s three year term was up, they would be reelected or more than likely, or they would prior to that announced that they weren’t seeking re election and it would be handled that way. Okay.

[00:28:38.92] spk_3:
Okay. Um,

[00:28:40.17] spk_2:
let’s ah, let’s take,

[00:29:30.12] spk_0:
uh, let’s take this break. And, uh, if you wanna you got a little longer in this break, And now we’re gonna talk to Amy Sample Ward as well. So, uh, stand by. Don’t go anywhere, though, Okay? You don’t have time to go to the bathroom. Just drink water, bathroom breaks or later, uh, his break quote. We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they’re always there to help walk. Help me walk through it. End Quote that Sally Hancock in Altoona, Pennsylvania, Maur raves about the Cougar Mountain customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial, which is on the listener landing page, which is at now time for Tony’s Take two. Your decade plan for planned giving. Um, this is not only the beginning of a new year, which is now close to 1/12 over already, but that means that we’re nearly 1 144th of the way into the new decade. So my, uh, belief is my It’s more than a belief. It’s almost Fact,

[00:29:49.25] spk_2:
if you start

[00:30:01.17] spk_0:
your planned giving program this year, you are gonna be astronomically ahead, and you’re gonna be you’re gonna be shocked at where you are by the year 2029. Those 10 years

[00:30:07.79] spk_2:
you’ll be you’ll be at

[00:30:21.72] spk_0:
a point where you can be projecting planned giving revenue for future years based on the revenue that you will have had in like years. 6789 That’s how far ahead you will be in plant giving and you think plan giving that. You know, people die. The gifts come, but we don’t know when those when those episodes air gonna happen. Yeah, but once your file is large enough, once you have enough planned giving donors in your file, you’re gonna start to see trends. And of course, you can’t predict to the dollar amount.

[00:30:46.78] spk_2:
But you can give yourself some comfort with a range that you expect to receive in cash each year,

[00:31:22.81] spk_0:
going forward from really like your 789 and forward, but certainly from your 10 on. So my urging is that you if you are not doing plan giving fundraising 2020 is the year to start the beginning of the decade. I say a lot more about this in a video, which is your decade plan for playing, giving. I lay out the plan. I don’t just say where you’re gonna be in a decade. I show you how to get there step year by year in the video, which is at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony. Take two now. Uh, late breaking. Let’s bring in Amy Sample Ward. She’s the CEO of and 10 and our social media and technology contributor. And

[00:31:44.64] spk_2:
we’re going to spend a few minutes talking about what’s coming up at 20 NTC. The 2020 non profit Technology conference. Welcome back, Amy. Sample Ward

[00:31:46.85] spk_7:
Bake. I’m happy to be on happy 2020.

[00:32:02.29] spk_2:
Thank you very much. Yes, indeed. First time we’ve talked this year. Um, it’s not too late to say Happy New Year because we know each other so well. And, uh, I haven’t seen you Haven’t talked to you since January 1st. So happy New Year. Happy, happy, Happy decade as well.

[00:32:05.44] spk_7:
Well, And where we’ve just started the Chinese New Year. So

[00:32:10.41] spk_0:
indeed, Yes, Yes, indeed. Balloon. You’re here. Um,

[00:32:13.04] spk_2:
so we’ve got this little thing coming up. It’s not

[00:32:24.41] spk_0:
so little, um, being snarky. It’s in Baltimore in March 2020. Non profit technology conference hosted by and 10 non profit radio will be there on the exhibit

[00:32:29.49] spk_2:
floor. But before we get to that, you tell us what? What? Why should

[00:32:31.89] spk_0:
we be attending?

[00:33:07.15] spk_7:
Oh, my gosh. I am really excited for this year because I think, as you know, you’ve You’ve been a handful of times now, so you can probably speak to this yourself too. But every year we’re always trying to make it better than it was, of course, the year before. And each year we feel like, Okay, this is the best we’ve ever done it. But how could we make it better? And I think we’ve got some really good plans this year that do that. Of course we have. You know, this is a big three day conference there, 2200 plus people altogether. And it doesn’t have to be, you know, just one type of non profit or one type of job in an organization. If you are listening to this, you are welcome at the number of

[00:33:17.73] spk_2:
probably

[00:33:18.57] spk_7:
that you could learn and do there

[00:33:19.84] spk_0:
It is not only for technologists, not only for technologists,

[00:35:24.80] spk_7:
right? Well, I mean, it’s 2020. Everyone in a non profit is using technology, right? Like it doesn’t. It doesn’t really matter how what your job titles has on your business card. There’s pieces of technology you need to use or make decisions about to be effective in your job on. There’s folks from every job title and people who have been in the sector for a year, and people have been in it for 40 years. You know, it’s it’s really like a cross section of everybody, Um, and we have over 150 sessions, so plenty of opportunity to go learn. But outside of that, something that we feel makes the NTC really specialists. How many opportunities there are for you to meet other people and share ideas or come to the conference of that one burning question like you just wish you could find somebody that’s figured out a way to get mail chimp to do that One thing you know, like we want to make sure you really do find that one other person. So we have a lot of kind of community based programs that happen as part of the agenda, and we have even more of them this year. We’ve We’ve always had what we call birds of a feather. So you know, funny things like people will do. You know, people who love watching a certain TV show or something as a table topic at lunch. But other people will do things like, you know, they use a certain tool or something so they can all meet each other and chat. But in the afternoons we’ve started this year what we’re calling knowledge swaps where they’re Maur intentional. They are about, you know, something work related, something you want to do something You’re having a challenge with, something that you just did really well And you want to make sure you can share that knowledge with other people so folks can sign up to basically, like, find other folks and hosted a conversation together on the topics a little bit easier than saying you want to present for 75 minutes for a session, right? Like maybe you just want to find four other folks and share ideas. So we built that into the agenda each day on and we’ve also expanded our career center. That isn’t just for people looking for jobs. A really big part of the community of the career center is mentorship. So being able to sit down with somebody for happen our and share feedback, whether it’s about their resume or it’s about, you know, the evolution in your own career. So what? Whatever side of that coin that you would be on the career center has lost of opportunities for you, um, and would love for folks to be a part of that.

[00:35:51.11] spk_0:
Okay, um, we just have, like, a minute in a minute or so left, so details of registration. Where do we

[00:35:58.54] spk_2:
go with the dates? Radio? Don’t even say the day everything. But the date is today.

[00:36:10.72] spk_7:
Yes, the dates are March 24th 26 it’s in Baltimore. At the convention center. There’s hotels of all the various price points, whatever place you have, a membership number two, whatever, all around the convention center, and you can go toe intend that orc Slash and T. C. You can see the full agenda. You can review some of those community programs I was talking about. We’ve got Rachel Affinity Spaces support for folks who want prayer room, meditation spaces, lactation access. All of those things are part of our conference. So we really want it to be something that folks are ready to learn and meet other people and talk. This is a resource for you. And if there’s a way we can make it easier support you being able to participate, we will do everything we can to do that. So please Goto intend that work slash NPC. Check it out. If you need anything, let us know. But hopefully we see you in March.

[00:37:05.76] spk_0:
This is an excellent conference. Yeah, I’ve been there. I think this is the sixth year.

[00:37:10.06] spk_2:
Do you think I think it’s the 60

[00:37:20.04] spk_0:
year I’ve brought the show, so we will be on the exhibit floor where were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software at the conference. So we’ll be side by side. We’ll be getting. I’ll be getting 30 plus interviews. Last year I got 32 interviews in two and 1/2 days, and then we air them. That

[00:37:28.44] spk_7:
must have been a record. 30.

[00:37:45.78] spk_0:
32 is the is the largest I’ve gotten. Yeah, it had been like 25 27 or so, but so were booked up. Eso. When you’re at the conference, come on the exhibit floor. I believe you’ll see us in boots 5 10 and 5 12 On DDE comes he’s come Say hello will be the noisy one with probably with spotlights, because we might shoot video. So but very smart, very smart speakers in lots of different topics around technology. And Amy’s Point is, I want to drive home. We’re all technologists. It regardless of what it says on your business card, you’re no longer using index cards and transparencies. You know, the overhead projectors. They’re gone. We’re all using technology, and this conference is for people at all different levels. Whether it’s on your in your job title as C I O. Or You’re just a user of technology

[00:38:22.71] spk_2:
and you have to say good bye. Thank you very much.

[00:38:24.45] spk_7:
Okay, thank you so much. And I will see what your booth. Because I always loved getting to do an interview with you.

[00:38:29.16] spk_2:
Absolutely. It’s our only time to go face to face. Yes, we’ll see you. I’ll see you in Baltimore.

[00:38:36.00] spk_0:
All right. Thank you for that indulgence. Alex Count. It’s usually

[00:38:38.44] spk_4:
a great conference or close to where I live. Yeah, it is fabulous. Maybe I’ll see you. There is

[00:38:49.80] spk_0:
really a very smart place. Hundreds of brilliance because I wish I could interview more than the 32 or so whatever I’ll get. Um so just remind listeners Alex counts. Ah, consultant, founder of Grameen Foundation. And his book is Changing the World without Losing your mind. Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship. We’re just scratching the surface. You know, where we’re We’re focused on the CEO chair relationship today, but obviously the book goes way beyond

[00:39:11.33] spk_3:
that. Uh,

[00:39:24.52] spk_2:
lots of lessons in 30 years. Now it’s Ah, you got a good You got a young face. You got a baby face. Check out, check out his, uh, check out his headshot tony-martignetti dot com’s gonna baby face. Um, So let’s, uh we divert a little bit, but these are all valuable topics.

[00:39:28.92] spk_0:
I mean, this board evaluation process is semi annual thing is really very interesting. I hadn’t heard anything

[00:39:35.22] spk_3:
like that. Um,

[00:39:36.96] spk_2:
let’s talk Thio. Let’s talk to

[00:39:43.47] spk_0:
communications. You like you like frequent regular communications between the CEO and the chair.

[00:40:28.73] spk_4:
Yes. I mean, there’s no. You know, when you when you talk with someone, you come in. Mike, come on with an agenda of what you think is going on the organization, but especially if you’re not rushed on your in person, where that’s possible, you know, you stumble upon in the process of just kind of ruminating on what’s going on the organization, some opportunities and assets and some kind of dangers and risks that you didn’t even go in thinking about because you’re you know, you’re with someone who’s also internalized. The organization is smart, is committed on DSO. I always, you know, I would wouldn’t want to talk with Susan or Bob or Palm or it’s, you know, have have kind of regular calls, you know, maybe two or three a month, but also in with a strict agenda but also sometimes has really unstructured. You know, it’s been a long dinner with them and, ah, a mixture of bonding and just kind of, you know, thinking out loud brainstorming and and just really kind of creative ideas can come up there. And if you’re I did tell a story. One of my board shares went from being semi retired of a very demanding job three years into his role. And while he did stick with it for another two years, which surprised me my ability to spend time with him, quality unstructured on rushed time was compromised. And and that was and I missed that. And our partnership suffered a little bit. As a result, he was still very good and because of his job, had more money to put into the organization. But his ability to kind of have that Maur kind of on structure brainstorming time was severely constrained.

[00:41:16.49] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah, it was more just a formal time together. Yeah.

[00:41:21.06] spk_2:
And you think about think about friends, you, How much just happens

[00:41:28.85] spk_0:
in free conversation over over a meal in a glass of wine. You

[00:41:47.13] spk_4:
think of some something to do together that just you hadn’t even thought of and just being in their presence. You’re like, Well, why don’t we try that, um and and so that that time together again, so many of these things Fundraising, managing board relationships. They’re very time consuming. But when you do them well and invest the time, it’s just they pay back many, many times, but you need to be able to kind of spend the time on what you know, my wife and I call the important but not urgent on If you invest in that, just magical things can happen.

[00:42:01.10] spk_2:
And then this kind

[00:42:01.89] spk_0:
of thing you have to make time for you aren’t gonna find the time when I when I find the time will, will have an unstructured meeting. But today we’re having an agenda. When I find the time when we find the time to get

[00:42:12.38] spk_2:
time is not gonna tap you on the shoulder and make itself apparent that you have to make the time. There’s never gonna come in timers. I’ve got two free hours today. Let’s have a meeting with meeting with. I’ll have a call with my board chair. It’s not gonna happen. You have to make the time consciously

[00:43:04.04] spk_4:
and you know, and it’s also becomes something, if you know is it can’t became with each my board shares, particularly Bob like Failed and Susan, where I just enjoyed being around them. They had a lot of grace for me when I made mistakes. They kind of puffed up my ego. When I was doing well, we found common interests or developed them on. They never took cheap shots at me, even in private. If they were going to be constructive, they tried the most sensitive way to do it. That didn’t deflate me. And so it just it ends up being. Gosh, I went. When do I get my next time with Susan? Tony Learn Thio kind of, you know, to commiserated, to celebrate. It’s just always like a special thing. And so you know, they make more time for it, and you developing that personal chemistry. Even if you’re very different people like we were, you could develop it, but it it it needs to be a, you know, a high priority

[00:43:19.30] spk_0:
on. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows in the C e o chair relationship. Like any relationship, let me take this last break and we’ll come back to Gilling with tension points.

[00:43:31.35] spk_2:
Turn to communications. Do you find yourself scratching

[00:43:39.57] spk_0:
your head, wondering how some nonprofits always seem to get mentioned in the news? It’s not because they’re big here. We are talking about relationships. It’s because they have relationships with journalists when they don’t want to be quoted, they just have

[00:43:48.44] spk_2:
a relation. They’re not looking for something they have a relationship

[00:43:59.65] spk_0:
of standing relationship with journalists turn to can help you do that. Their former journalists, including from the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So you want to build those relationships in advance. So when the news breaks and you can contribute to it and want to be seen on an issue, you’ve got the standing relationship. Your call, most likely more likely than not, will be taken over not having that standing relationship. They return hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:45:00.25] spk_2:
Let’s do the live listener love and there’s quite a bit of it we are in. Ah, it’s the start. Domestic Woodbridge, New Jersey Tampa, Florida New York New York multiple. Glad to see you. Thank you very much. New York, um, live love to each of those cities as well. A Seattle, Washington in Chicago, Illinois, um, as well as Lincoln’s in North Carolina. Well, cool North Carolina. I’m in Emerald Isle, not today, but, uh, live love. I’ve loved to each of our domestic live listeners. Now let’s go abroad. Seoul, South Korea. Always so loyal. I’m always so grateful. Seoul, South Korea Multiple listeners Annual Hasso comes a ham Nida Woodbridge, New Jersey

[00:45:05.27] spk_0:
No, I’m sorry. That’s not fair. Not that’s That’s, uh that’s not foreign. That’s not very funny.

[00:45:07.74] spk_2:
I’m from New

[00:45:08.17] spk_0:
Jersey. So you know, I’m from I grew up in Rutherford Multiple,

[00:45:44.57] spk_2:
Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan. Often we have Japanese listeners. Thank you, Japan. Konnichi wa um Chapultepec de Chapultepec Day. Hinojosa, Mexico When I started this when you start this France Rahm bouquet that was the same city was with us last week as well. Rambo. Yea. And I apologize if I’m not pronouncing it right. But live love Thio out to our for listeners officers in France, um, Oxford in the United Kingdom and also in Korea Sue on Oh, someone else. Besides, uh um besides soul thank you. Live love out to you. Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Moscow. We’re, uh not quite Everyone say every hemisphere I mean every continent, but we’re close live love

[00:46:45.55] spk_0:
to each of our live listeners. Thank you so much for being with us and the podcast pleasantries toward over 13,000 listeners. In the podcast Pleasantries to you. I thank you for being with us week after week, whether you binge it all and listen to eight episodes on a weekend or you’re spreading it out. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Um, that was our Ah, live. Listen, love in the podcast pleasantries. And now back to, uh, CEO chair relationship, which we’ve got butt loads more time for. Ah, and Alex counts. Okay, Moments of tension. They’re gonna crop up

[00:47:51.47] spk_4:
inevitable in a certain way. Healthy. I remember. And in the article I talked just referenced in passing that, you know, one time I had some tension with Susan Davis and I went to the vice chair kind of probably overreacting to that and wanted to try play Mommy off against Daddy or something, you know. And Yvette Dyer, who is our vice chair at the time, said very profound and basically said, You know, the tension is an inbuilt part of that relationship, even when it’s the healthiest. And as I thought about that more I thought about you know, your non profit executive directors. Sometimes they’re too aggressive, they need to be reined in, and the board feels it. But it’s really the responsibility that share to give that feedback. On the other hand, some this wasn’t so much my fault, but some executive directors and CEOs are too cautious. I need to be pushed to be more aggressive and had Ah, And again that will come, uh, probably is the sense of the board, but often best conveyed by the chair. And initially, that may not be that well received, um, and and may create some tension. But again, there’s in all healthy relationships, especially this one. That’s that’s one of the aspects of it. And once I realized that and you see, I had the benefit when I was working with Susan, that I’d already been the chair of another non profit board. She had previously been the executive director of a nonprofit, so we kind of understood you

[00:48:12.53] spk_0:
had been in each other’s roles. Very important, always

[00:48:15.15] spk_4:
possible. But but but actually quite it valuable it You’ve kind of sat in that person’s, you know, chair and and you can understand a little bit more why they’re doing what they’re doing on DDE. And so that that tension just was, you know, was really part and parcel of a healthy relationship. Is, as I came to see, not didn’t see that you immediately

[00:48:36.62] spk_2:
too timid sometimes CEOs in what respect? Not aggressive. Just

[00:50:05.15] spk_4:
say, you know whether it’s setting their annual goals for, you know, whatever societal positive impact they want. Or some CEOs want a stockpile money rather than spend it on their programs of their team star of the organization. Just because they just they’re always worried about running out of money. So or sometimes it’s about, for example, keeping it a non performing employees on giving them one more chance that could go on for four or five years and on. And, you know, there was one case where I probably stuck with it. A chief operating officer longer than I should and a board chair came in and said, You know, when you’re gonna ease him out. You know, he’s creating a lot of dissension in the organization. Even that was raging, reaching the level of the board. And I needed to be pushed Thio to recognize that this person wasn’t performing and so get my errors would tend to be more about being too aggressive, too much of a risk taker, and I would need to be reined in. But like I had my examples where I was foot dragging and on the board. If the board doesn’t tell you that your your staff probably won’t directly on dhe. You know they’re the ones that to be a kind of observe your performance and push you. And of course, ultimate decision usually remains yours. But if you don’t follow that enough, you’ll find yourself out of a job at some point. And so if there’s a there’s a kind of a creative tension there,

[00:50:06.72] spk_0:
particularly staff won’t tell you if it’s the c 00 that we’re talking about. Yep, that’s the source.

[00:50:13.58] spk_2:
You liketo have staff participate, attend

[00:50:21.06] spk_0:
and participate board inboard means and not just the C suite. Yeah, that’s what

[00:50:21.61] spk_4:
I did something that people who it

[00:50:24.35] spk_2:
kind of

[00:50:51.40] spk_4:
naturally evolved in Grameen Foundation, where from when we had a very small staff initially is you know, I would have some staff that would present to the board. Maybe they weren’t as good at presenting his. I was. Maybe they were better, but but to give them that experience, to demystify what the board is by having them, and the board could see the quality of staff I had, whether it was, hopefully they were impressed. Sometimes they’re, like, you know, realize that you had why I had to step in and do this, but I ultimately not only had the senior staff as we grew, you know, sit around the board table and either present or observed, but I would say any available staff member quite radical. Could you sit in an outer ring and observe? And it just it had this kind of ability to demystify the board where a lot of non profit employees like

[00:51:08.63] spk_2:
What is

[00:52:23.45] spk_4:
the board do and they’re not doing enough. And what’s their role? And why do we have to work so hard to prepare these board meetings and when they can actually sit there and observe the board deliberating and we would we would go one step further, which is where a t end of the board meeting the board would all leave board members except for the chair, and I would facilitate a debrief with all the staff who were present. Summons might be 2025 staff members, and they could all say, I thought the board had a really intelligent conversation about that. I thought that they totally avoided this topic and had a really, you know, bad discussion about it, and we would just we wouldn’t try to argue them. And so it because a lot of people came to work for me, as I learned is that the board was this mysterious thing where the CEO would go off in a room and maybe the CFO would make a 45 minute presentation and then be ushered out of the room. And it just felt like a this kind of secret society that was making decisions about them that they had no visibility into. And I kind of went the other way of just absolute transparency, including sometimes the board. My staff would see the board grilling me, and they would see me sometimes perform well and defend their interests. You know, some board member wants a new program that made no sense, and I would say, No, we’re not gonna do that makes no sense. And sometimes they’d see me stumble. But again, it just made it more of a human, just just just a group of people trying to help us in a different type of role than you have and let them watch you at times and you get to watch them perform and evaluated and and so it just took all that mysteriousness out of it, and I thought was healthy. Now, at times, you know, I did. I have an occasional board member say, Well, what

[00:52:43.95] spk_2:
if we What if

[00:52:47.15] spk_4:
we close down this whole project? You know, maybe that would be a good idea. And then the people running that project sitting in the background Does it cause anxiety that you need to manage? Yes, there were. There were problems with that. But the benefits way far outweigh the costs in my mind.

[00:53:01.32] spk_0:
Okay. Interesting. Yeah, The typical is staff member of presents, and then is, as you said, ushered out. Yeah.

[00:53:12.65] spk_2:
All right. Awesome. Opening our minds. Um, you have some thoughts

[00:53:13.51] spk_0:
about upgrading aboard where we have, like, two minutes or so left or something. So

[00:53:18.60] spk_2:
we got a good

[00:53:19.21] spk_0:
Okay, we have about three minutes left up the timeto upgrade first. What do you mean by upgrading aboard? Well,

[00:54:16.61] spk_4:
I I believe that I’ve studied it. That about 80% of non profit boards in this country or some version of dysfunctional either micromanaging or only 80 or well, you think that low occasionally I say that I ask people who challenge me and more often it’s that they think it It’s more than that. But whatever most up a solid majority and the reason s O I. What I say is, Is that it? You know, if you’re upgrading, I’m saying, if you want to take a dysfunctional board to mediocre or a mediocre board too high performing it could be done. But you need to do a couple things. One. Is there no quick fixes? If anyone tells you they can turn a board materially increase their performance in 90 days, adopting you know, four techniques. It’s not gonna happen if if you want to increase the quality aboard materially, significantly mark your calendar 3 to 5 years in the future. And one of the things I most often hear from executive directors is, Well, I’m gonna wait for my board to start performing, and then I’ll really engage them on and support them. But they need to prove to me, and I said, No, that’s the wrong way. Look at it. You need to start treating them now. Whoever is on that treat them now is if they’re high performing, bored, invest in them that way and then given a couple years of lag time, they’ll emerge to be the board that you deserve. But you need to treat them now like they’re the board that you deserve, even though they’re not yet, um, and so

[00:54:47.20] spk_2:
that may just

[00:54:47.78] spk_4:
spending intensive time, helping to create real wins for them and a great experience of being on the board, which is gonna be different for each board member

[00:54:55.99] spk_0:
and challenging them to spend more time to get more responsibility.

[00:54:59.46] spk_2:
That’s right, but also

[00:55:00.20] spk_4:
making it making it pleasurable and enjoyable for them to do so not because their guilt or manipulation, but just out of a sense of opportunity. So again I go into in the book, I talk about how once that once I kind of got that at the care and feeding of board members. I think most executive directors and CEO spend probably could spend 3 to 4 times Maur of their time and effort in cultivating these board members. And the payback is immeasurable. But it’s it’s not gonna happen 90 days if if you’re if you’re gonna just read an article in the Stanford Social Innovation Review, apply a few techniques and then you know are they performing better in 90 days. It’s just not. That’s not how groups evolve and function. But if you do it over an extended period aboard, and then you just add one good new member a year. Ah, and they raised the level of everyone a little bit, and that’s that’s how this goes. But if you stick with it for a couple of years, it could be miraculous.

[00:55:59.64] spk_0:
We’re gonna leave it there. That’s outstanding. Is Alex counts his book again, changing the world without Losing your mind? Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship. You’ll find him at Alex counts dot com and at Alex,

[00:56:14.52] spk_2:
counts. Thanks so much, Thank you Pleasure. Next week, our Innovators,

[00:56:30.41] spk_0:
Siri’s continues with the return of Peter Shankman on neuro Diversity. What that means for you as an employer and for your employees, the those who are New road divergent. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:56:41.16] spk_2:
by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is

[00:56:59.82] spk_0:
there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative

[00:57:00.60] spk_2:
producer is Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:57:41.08] spk_5:
Sam Liebowitz is the line producer on the board shows. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York, with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for December 20, 2019: Impeachment, Say What? & #SaveDotOrg

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My Guests:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Impeachment, Say What?
What’s your nonprofit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What’re your employees allowed to say, where and when? Gene Takagi has the answers. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward: #SaveDotOrg
There’s a possibility that management of the .org domain will be privatized. The #SaveDotOrg movement thinks that’s a bad idea. NTEN is part of the opposition movement and Amy Sample Ward explains why. She’s our technology and social media contributor and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.14] spk_1:
Hello

[00:00:41.93] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the love, their 95% under aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn extra tropic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Impeachment. Say what? What’s your non profit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What do your employees allowed to say, where and when? Jean Takagi has the answers.

[00:00:43.68] spk_3:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group,

[00:00:51.04] spk_2:
then save dot or GE. There’s a possibility

[00:00:53.45] spk_3:
that management of the dot org’s domain will be privatized. Save dot org’s movement thinks that’s a bad

[00:00:59.84] spk_2:
idea, and 10 is part

[00:01:01.88] spk_3:
of the opposition movement. And Amy Sample Ward explains why she’s our technology and social

[00:01:06.93] spk_2:
media contributor and CEO of 10 on tony Steak, too.

[00:01:14.04] spk_3:
Thank you for 2019 were

[00:01:14.24] spk_2:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:54.24] spk_3:
Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and I’m hoping that we’re gonna welcome Jean Takagi back. Do we have him? We’re trying. OK, uh, he’s in. Is he in the conference? Okay, we’re trying to call the conference, so I don’t know. Gene probably cannot hear us. So what we’re gonna be talking about is, um,

[00:02:02.93] spk_2:
some some stuff on, uh, what’s permissible

[00:02:37.85] spk_3:
for 501 See three’s to talk about, um, whether it’s around impeachment or the election election earing things like, Are you allowed to host a candidates forum? Candidates debate. Um, what about promoting issues versus candidates? What do your employees allowed to do? And that’s Ah, that’s what we’ll be covering. We’re gonna

[00:02:38.21] spk_2:
do Jeanne Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne de la machine. We got him. Jean Takagi is the managing attorney of Neo,

[00:02:44.28] spk_3:
the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non

[00:03:02.08] spk_2:
profit lawyer. He’s at G tak. Welcome, Jean Jean. Great. Ah, great to have you. I know you were there, but we were having

[00:03:04.94] spk_3:
trouble getting in. But now we’re now we’re in, You’re in and we’re

[00:03:12.26] spk_2:
in and s so it’s a very communal Wonderful Are you doing out there? Looking forward to holidays? I’m sure

[00:03:15.50] spk_5:
I am. How about you turning

[00:03:17.13] spk_2:
very much? Yeah. I love this

[00:03:18.50] spk_3:
time. Uh, we have a couple of weeks off from the show, and I have nothing scheduled for a couple of weeks. So, uh, it’s

[00:03:25.47] spk_2:
good time, too. I mean, I’ll be working light work light, I guess. And good time.

[00:03:30.99] spk_5:
Same way.

[00:03:31.64] spk_3:
Yes. Excellent. Good for you. And

[00:03:33.71] spk_2:
good time for reflection.

[00:03:38.44] spk_3:
I think on the new year, I like that you have any, uh, any goals for Ah, 20

[00:03:42.73] spk_2:
20 that you want to share or anything exciting coming up in 2020.

[00:03:53.29] spk_5:
Really excited. My partner, Aaron, Brad, Rick and I are going to be teaching a course at Columbia University starting in January, so we’re really looking forward to that in their non profit a management program.

[00:03:59.50] spk_3:
Wonderful is not gonna bring you to New York or you teaching virtually.

[00:04:03.29] spk_5:
We’re teaching online, but we may make out a trip itude in New York

[00:04:07.89] spk_2:
trip or two. But you gotta let me know. Of course.

[00:04:10.12] spk_5:
Absolutely.

[00:04:16.83] spk_3:
I mean, unless you want Oh, yeah. I hope you don’t want to stealth in and stealth out. Not not. Talk to me. I certainly wouldn’t do that if I were visiting San Francisco again.

[00:04:20.94] spk_2:
Um, okay, so let’s start with the most timely.

[00:04:30.74] spk_3:
Um, President Trump was impeached two days ago in the U. S. House of Representatives. Um,

[00:04:31.72] spk_2:
what’s, uh what can we talk about?

[00:04:33.38] spk_3:
If we’re 501 c three around that

[00:04:48.90] spk_5:
Well, it’s a great question and, you know, because they’re different types of 501 see threes and different types of non profit. I should make clear that we’re only talking about public charities here. There’s different rules for different other types of organizations, including private foundations for public charities. There’s quite a lot they can talk about.

[00:04:56.93] spk_2:
OK,

[00:04:57.64] spk_5:
we should also differentiate between impeachment, which has already happened, and the removal from office, which is still going to be a matter of legislative action, specifically a supermajority vote by the Senate whenever they get that before them.

[00:05:11.85] spk_3:
And

[00:05:12.57] spk_5:
I know that’s related issues.

[00:05:16.20] spk_2:
Okay, uh, because there go ahead. Yeah. So Well, why? Why? Why do we

[00:05:21.09] spk_3:
distinguish between those two. This is a big

[00:05:24.51] spk_5:
authority happened,

[00:05:25.38] spk_2:
Yeah,

[00:05:32.43] spk_5:
so because it’s already happened, you know, charity are fairly free to comment on

[00:05:33.34] spk_2:
that action. They’re

[00:06:33.93] spk_5:
also free to comment about how they feel about governmental leaders in doing their jobs. And, you know, it might be really important to do so in the context that it may really impact the charity’s mission. And, you know, for example, I would think that charity to mission is to end hunger, for example, for for American suffering from poverty. They might have a great deal to say about the administration’s rule to end food stands for like about 700,000 people. You know, the 700,000 people are making, on average 2200 and $50 a year. And if you want to comment on that at a charity, that’s okay the same way you can comment on the impeachment whether you think that that was proper or not. But what may not be okay if you’re gonna be talking about the electability of that person for or in any way talking about the upcoming election so you can talk about impeachment in and of itself on dhe. Whether it was, you think it was right or it was improper. But you can’t start to talk about, um, or start to influence the upcoming election. So that’s a little bit of a fine line. Thio. Walk on

[00:06:58.93] spk_3:
okay, and we’ll get to the election and election hearing. What about the coming potential removal from office, The trial in the Senate and, you know, advocating one way or the other for what you think. The Senate, your organization thinks because we’re talking about the organization level, we’ll get. Individual employees will get to that, too. But what your organization thinks about removal from office.

[00:07:14.68] spk_5:
So you know, there’s no absolute guidance from the i. R s on the impeachment of the president. Surprise. But, um, there’s It’s generally thought to be attempting to influence the legislative action inaction by the Senate.

[00:07:26.24] spk_2:
The mall’s

[00:07:51.21] spk_5:
within the tax laws, definition of lobbying and not political campaign intervention. So we know that there’s an absolute bar to, um, you know, endorsing or supporting or opposing candidates for public office. That would be election hearing in that not allowed by any type of 5 23 but public charities are allowed to engage in lobbying so long as it’s considered not substantial, and commenting on a potential legislative action like the removal from office action that will fall before the Senate would be considered lobbying. And to the extent that charity can lobbying and there are some limitations involved, the charity would be free to do so. But again, it has to walk that fine line because we are coming up to an election year on. Dhe has to look like it’s not trying to influence the election itself. So you don’t really want to talk about other candidates for office or on the general overall qualities of Trump as a candidate for another four years. But you want to talk. If you want a charity, you want to talk about the removal from office specifically about what, before the Senate. Why, why would he be removed from from the office? So you’re really took ing taking a look at those two articles of impeachment and commenting on the merits of those articles?

[00:09:02.54] spk_3:
Okay, understand? We need to take our first break when we come back very shortly. We’ll, uh, well, we’ll talk more about lobbying and what’s allowed, not allowed there. And, uh, we’re taking a break for, um, for wegner-C.P.As. Of course, in the new year, might you need a C p. A, whose service is excellent, who provides clear directions and timetables and who’s easy to work

[00:09:10.88] spk_2:
with. That’s not me talking.

[00:09:22.82] spk_3:
That’s from the testimony. Old. That’s not my opinion. That’s, Ah, the opinion of someone who’s worked with not with wegner in the past, a CZ you’ve heard the past few weeks. So if you

[00:09:26.02] spk_2:
do talk

[00:09:39.50] spk_3:
to partner, you eat each tomb. He’s a good guy. No pressure wegner-C.P.As dot com And now let’s go back to Jean Takagi and Impeachment. Say what? Okay, we’re

[00:09:39.89] spk_2:
allowed to do some

[00:09:56.68] spk_3:
lobbying, you said, as long as it’s not substantial. Uh, how do we measure substantiality? Substantial ability. Substantiality substantiality. I think it’s I think that’s what This How do we make whatever helps called Republic

[00:10:33.26] spk_5:
charities there Two ways to measure it? Sort of. The default way is just what the law cost backs and circumstances, and that leaves it up to the Iraq to determine whether you’ve engaged in too much lobbying or not. And if you want to challenge it, ultimately, a court and nobody really wants to go down that route. So, you know, professionals typically uses guidelines. You know, there was this old case that said, you know, 5% of your resource is that should be okay that, you know, anything under 5% should be okay. You want to think about your expenditures, your volunteer time? You know the amount of publication space you’re giving all of those things. If it’s about 5% or less of your resource is you’re probably not too worried about exceeding the lobbying threshold under that backs in circumstances.

[00:10:42.37] spk_3:
Okay, Yeah. 55 percents pretty low.

[00:10:46.35] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s pretty low. Um, but, you know,

[00:10:48.39] spk_3:
for some

[00:11:26.97] spk_5:
organization, that’s all they want to do. But you know, the better choice for the vast majority of charities. And I would say, almost the no brain and choice for charities that are not churches who are ineligible to do this but share other charities that are eligible to make the 5018 lobbying election. I’m. And that that is just a basically 1/2 page born where you put name, address and check a box on it. If you make that election of the charity which could do it any time at all. Um, you get thio, measure your lobbying strictly by your lobbying expenditures, and the limits are just so much more generous.

[00:11:27.98] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:11:28.59] spk_5:
so it’s 20% of your 1st $500,000 of what they call exempt purpose expenditures or mission related expended

[00:11:36.12] spk_3:
choker.

[00:11:36.75] spk_5:
20% of that

[00:11:40.62] spk_3:
100 $100,000 right there and it’s it’s deemed non substantial.

[00:11:46.76] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah, And there’s a separate limit for grassroots lobbying, which is lobbying a different type of lobbying, where you’re not going straight to a legislative body or an employee or member of the legislative body. But you’re going to the public and you’re asking them to contact a member of the legislative body and you have a called action included in that. So if it’s grassroots lobbying, it’s 25% of that total lobbing limit.

[00:12:11.99] spk_3:
But

[00:12:51.64] spk_5:
expenditure limits under Bible one h are much, much more generous than that 5% kind of rule of thumb that we look at the other time again. Um, a big, big tip for any public charity that wants to, um, discuss the removal from from office, um, stay positions on that before it gets to the Senate or wallets in the Senate, the 501 each election could made and be made any time. And it will be effective for the year. And would you make the election? If you decide you don’t want to, you know, continue electing it. Which might be the case for super big charities. Um, where the 5% could actually be, You know, a lot of money you could, you know, revoke your election that anytime after as well by just filing the same form and checking a different box. So a no brainer election for most public charity.

[00:13:00.35] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. So and we’ve talked

[00:13:15.52] spk_3:
about this before. I was probably the April 2016 which was the last election year. Um, you and I talked about advocacy generally, and I think the 501 h came up then. So you’re still a five. A one c three. You’re just making this 501 h election for the year.

[00:13:23.94] spk_5:
Right? So

[00:13:24.75] spk_2:
what do you

[00:13:25.08] spk_5:
make it?

[00:13:25.49] spk_2:
Your sort

[00:13:26.16] spk_5:
of permanently on that until you revoke it. But all it does that 501 age super easy election to make this thing. We don’t want to tell the IRS everything about our lobby. We just want the IRS to measure our lobbying on what was spent. We don’t want to try to estimate volunteer time How much of our office space is dedicated to lobby? We just want to tell them exactly what we spent and recorded on our financial for a lot. So, so much easier to report, so much easier to track. The limits are much easier. And if you violate it, if you go over the lobbying limits without the election, that facts and circumstances test.

[00:14:00.03] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:14:00.37] spk_5:
you violated in any one year, you can lose your Bible. One secret that

[00:14:04.58] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:14:04.93] spk_5:
But if you make the election, you have to violate it over a four year period, not just one year, but over a four year rolling calendar. And then you have violated by more than 50%.

[00:14:16.61] spk_3:
Wow. Okay, so that

[00:14:18.03] spk_5:
that’s just so much more advantageous.

[00:14:39.09] spk_3:
It is sort of a no brainer. And for those much generous, much more generous limits. Okay, cool. All right. 501 inch. Thank you, G. Um, what about our our individual employees? What are in terms of what resource is they’re using when they speak, when they when they speak publicly? What? What are the rules around employees?

[00:15:56.92] spk_5:
Well, you know, first thing to recognize is is individual tax First Amendment rights, right? So they have the freedom of speech. They have the freedom to say whatever they want. Charities shouldn’t control what you know their employees or their directors or officers are saying in their individual capacity. But they should control what they’re saying as representative speaking on behalf of the charities. So there’s that distinction to make so again don’t control what you know your your employees and your staff members and volunteers are saying about impeachment or removal or any other wegner slate of action or political endorsement. But make sure that they don’t use any charity. Resource is in doing so, and that’s really important. Don’t let them use their work email address. Don’t let them use the work. Tell a boat. Don’t let them perform those activities. If they’re, they’re, you know, working on campaigns in the office and the charity’s office. And if they should put their name on with the name of their employer, which is a charity on like an endorsement list of a political candidate. Make sure that there’s some sort of Astra’s back says that the name of their employer is only listed there for identification purposes and doesn’t represent an endorsement by the charity itself.

[00:16:22.14] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Um and so what? What employees do on there personal time and their personal Facebook Twitter email all all, uh, really of no concern to the to the charity.

[00:16:28.54] spk_5:
Yeah, but social media is actually a good point about hitting that gray area, tony, because you probably follow your twitter, tony. So you

[00:16:37.06] spk_2:
probably follow you

[00:16:42.79] spk_5:
individuals who are on Twitter who have both their name and their charity affiliation like listed?

[00:16:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah, in

[00:16:55.29] spk_5:
their account, it might be in their Twitter handle, or it might be in their short bio underneath. You know, the Twitter handle. And that’s where it becomes kind of tricky. Who does that Twitter handle belong to? Does it belong to the individual or doesn’t belong to the charity And could the chair to get in trouble if there is a political endorsement or a statement of opposition to a candidate for public office?

[00:17:12.21] spk_2:
Yeah, I always

[00:18:04.09] spk_3:
have presumed. Although I’ve never followed upto see whether my presumption is, uh is accurate that someone who has the charity name in there either in their handle or, as you say in their short Twitter bio, has another account that doesn’t talk about the charity, Asai said. I never have investigated to see whether they do or not. I’m following their charity account. Um, so maybe maybe people don’t. But that would seem like the better the better practice. And especially if, I mean, shouldn’t that be in a, ah charities social media policy that if you’re going to use the charity name, you know, there are prohibitions around what you can do with that and then and we encourage you? Or we insist that you have, ah, private well non A non charity Twitter account for all other all other non work purposes.

[00:18:56.44] spk_5:
Yeah, conservatively. You know, I kind of like that type of policy, tony. But for practical purposes, it’s kind of like our president or or Hillary Clinton when she was running, separating their kind of personal accounts from their work account. Um, there they are co mingled all the time, and not just by charities and their employees, but by four profit in their employees, so disclaimers can work outright prohibitions and requirements that they have a separate, Um, a Twitter account or face social media account may be helpful at times, but often times you know they’re just going to combine the two. So, um, just be careful about that one thing about, you know, sort of the election hearing prohibition that you can’t endorse or oppose the political candidate. One thing did note is that the Republican Party platform and President Trump himself said they really don’t like that Prohibition often referred to as the Johnson

[00:19:14.09] spk_3:
and Johnson

[00:19:14.70] spk_5:
talked about that before.

[00:19:16.87] spk_2:
Well, they

[00:19:17.05] spk_5:
want to get rid of it, although most the vast majority of charities. And I think the mast majority of churches. I don’t want to get rid of it because I could turn all charities into these election vehicles for where donors say, You know, I’m not gonna give you this donation unless he said a message to all of your members and donors of, you know, in support of a political candidate, and that would suddenly be okay.

[00:20:05.12] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s we’ve been talking. We talked about that. Probably when it around the time it first became a proposal, or at least well, I guess it’s been in the platform. The party platform, you’re saying. But there was some There was more talk about it, I don’t know. A year and 1/2 for two years ago, and we, you and I discussed the Johnson Amendment. Um, it hasn’t happened. Maybe because of the nonprofit community opposition. What what’s your scent? You were you were monitoring that very closely. What’s your sense of where it stands?

[00:20:57.67] spk_5:
Yeah, you know, I think the non profit community’s opposition was very, very helpful in that there were there were others who were opposing it. A CZ well, with a matter of policy. And I think as people got more educated about it, it became less and less popular. Um, it was a way for dark money. T sort of enter into the political system where we didn’t really know where the sources were in. People were getting tax deductions on top of it. So it’s something that be really bad. But the reason why I brought it up here is because if an organization wasn’t quite sure, it was speaking out on impeachment or removal from office, and you know we may be crossing that line. Well, conservatively, I would say, Yeah, the closer we are to election time, you’ve got to be careful even within the bounds that I said that it might be a lobbying activity and not, uh uh, banned political campaign activity. But closer do you are to election that could turn into what looks like a political campaign activity. If you’ve never spoken about the impeachment itself, and you just never it looks like your charity was never interested in the issue until just like, you know, a few months before the election with the

[00:21:25.32] spk_2:
happened that

[00:21:48.92] spk_5:
looks like this casted election hearing communication. But overall, I’m not sure that the I. R s and the current executive branch is really that interested in enforcing the political prohibition laws because, you know, doesn’t resonate with what their messaging has been. Maybe a little bit risk. And it would have been for four years ago.

[00:21:49.85] spk_2:
Okay? Yeah. You still

[00:21:56.54] spk_3:
want to err on the side of caution, right? I mean, I, you know, because they there could be some exception to their enforcement activity or priorities or something. So but

[00:22:01.99] spk_2:
you’re you’re the

[00:22:11.33] spk_3:
conservative conservative guy, at least in terms of legal legal advice of the legal advice side. You know, um, least that’s Yeah,

[00:22:13.26] spk_2:
that’s always been your You. You’ve always been cautious

[00:22:15.77] spk_3:
about advice you give. Yeah,

[00:22:41.47] spk_5:
Yeah, I think when we have a lot of smaller to medium sized organizations amongst the client, there’s just less risk capital, you know, private foundation with, you know, $10 billion might have a little bit Arjun for taking a risk and maybe fighting it in court if they felt like the I r s sir. Uh, neutrino general not correct in their interpretation of whether a lot was violated. But for most small and medium sized charities, they can’t afford to have that battle.

[00:22:49.70] spk_2:
We’ve been

[00:23:15.61] spk_3:
talking mostly about candidates. You mentioned a little bit about issues, but let’s make issues issues clearer versus candidates. Are you saying that if you’re non profit now, as an organization has has been following an issue for a long time and not just doesn’t just start commenting, you know, 60 or 90 days before an election, then eyes that part of the facts and circumstances test for people who don’t for organizations that don’t take the 501 h election. Is that Is that one factor?

[00:24:01.94] spk_5:
Well, just commenting on issues themselves, it was If it isn’t stating a position on a piece of legislation, you’re free to do that all you want. So if you’re educating the public about a particular issue, whether it be climate change or, um, you know, immigration, um, you couldn’t talk about broader issues and educate the public. You know, if you’re giving material facts and you’re doing it in a non part of objective and fair manner, that that should be sort of a fundamental thing of what you do if it’s gonna help further your mission. But when you start to comment on a particular piece of law or legislation and say, you know, this is either a good piece of legislation or this is a bad piece of legislation

[00:24:11.27] spk_3:
or this

[00:24:11.70] spk_5:
new legislation that we need now you’re entering into the realm of lobbying and subject to those limits that we just discussed the 501 h limits or the the facts and circumstances with

[00:24:26.22] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um,

[00:24:28.72] spk_2:
you still there, June? I am okay. Yeah. You

[00:24:41.39] spk_3:
Ah ah, word or a syllable at a time seems to pop out, and then it got quiet. So I I, uh I got concerned. Okay, You’re still with us. All right. Good. Um, thank you for flushing that out.

[00:24:43.22] spk_2:
What else? What else

[00:24:44.49] spk_3:
do you think listeners need to know?

[00:26:06.27] spk_5:
Well, there are all sorts of other things that public charities do around election time. Um, you know, they can’t endorsers support any candidates for public office, But the concert, we engage in voter registration and get out the boat drives. You see that all over the place, and you’re gonna continue to see it over the next year. So a CZ longer again there, you know, conducted in the neutral, non partisan matter without reference to, you know, any of the specific candidates or political parties, you can host a candidate debate or forum. I think many of you have seen those, uh, you know, hosted by a public charity. And again, the purpose of the, uh, debates reform should be for educating the public. So you have to be very careful about not doing it in a partisan man is not with leading questions or a selective choice of topics that that might influence the public one way or the other. Be careful about your selection of moderators and how you comment on the candidate’s response. Yes, I want to be careful about the time allotted to each candidate. You know, it would be very wrong if you allowed just one candidate. If there is, it just came down to the presidential race, for example, and you let one party’s candidates speak for 90% of the time and the other candidates to be 10% of the time. It will be pretty clear where that charity is leaning.

[00:26:28.95] spk_3:
Okay, So to borrow the old Fox News motto, you need to be fair and balanced, but not fair and balanced like they were where a court ruled that they were de facto, not fair and balanced. Need to be really fair and balance. I think

[00:26:29.39] spk_5:
that’s that’s right,

[00:26:30.53] spk_2:
and and

[00:26:35.50] spk_5:
obviously a charity will have its own mission statement to think about. But they’ve got a sort of put it in their back pocket a little bit when they’re designing those type of debates. Reformed Also, voter guides, Kennedy questionnaires, um, also permissible and even candidate appearances. If you’re providing equal opportunity for all candidates, you see that on television is Wow.

[00:27:05.64] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um well, we have just about a minute or so left. Uh, what? Ah, what do you want to leave us with for the for the year on this topic?

[00:27:17.93] spk_5:
Well, I think I’ll just say I think people should be really active in their advocacy. In furtherance of their mission. There are a few resources that are out there. Board sources stand for your mission. Campaign has some excellent resource is on the Alliance for Justice gives you more than mechanics of what I’ve been talking about. What type of advocacy, What type of lobbying, what type of political activities public charities could do on. There’s some nuances to all of this. There’s another layer of election law that may be on top of all of the tax law we’ve been talking about. So those resources are good places to go and go ahead and advocate as much as you can for your mission.

[00:27:58.17] spk_3:
Junior. So modest. Another very good source is non profit law blawg, which is at non profit law blogged dot com. And Jeanne, I wish you lots of

[00:28:01.34] spk_2:
let’s of enjoyment, lots of good time.

[00:28:03.07] spk_4:
Uh, I

[00:28:03.64] spk_3:
hope you enjoy your holidays and the New Year

[00:28:07.14] spk_5:
Happy holidays to you and your family. Tony,

[00:28:28.89] spk_3:
thank you very much, Gene. It’s a pleasure. And thank you so much for what you’ve done for 2019 and what we’re looking forward to. In 2020 he’s Jean Takagi, my pleasure, managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group. He edits that non profit log log, and he’s at G Tak. Now it’s time for a

[00:28:33.08] spk_2:
break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits The same nonprofits we’ve been talking about, the ones, the ones we all know. Non profit radio, for God’s sake. What does that mean For you?

[00:29:00.64] spk_3:
That means fund accounting. No more spreadsheets to manage your restricted grant funds. Also fraud prevention and exceptional customer service. You’ve heard all that in the testimonials. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now let’s transition,

[00:29:03.15] spk_4:
uh,

[00:29:03.88] spk_2:
subtly, but ah, but smoothly, uh, suddenly and

[00:29:27.75] spk_3:
smoothly to tony stick to and my thanks for you. Our listener. Listeners in 2019 were the number one podcast for nonprofits. Most listened to, uh, most longest running, most consistently produced, most sponsored just generically. Overall, you can say Number one podcast for nonprofits. And

[00:29:35.00] spk_2:
that’s because we have so many listeners. So I am grateful

[00:29:49.24] spk_3:
to you. Thank you for your listening If you have shared the show. I appreciate that as well. Thank you for that. That’s how we grow the audiences by listeners sharing what? What

[00:29:49.94] spk_2:
they believe is good content. So thank you with you. Listen, live or archive.

[00:29:54.54] spk_4:
It

[00:30:13.47] spk_3:
makes no difference. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to see my thank you wishes from the Chesapeake Bay, then you can view the video at my thank you video. Thank you so much. We

[00:30:13.61] spk_2:
have a B sample ward. We do not have

[00:30:55.80] spk_3:
any sample word. She hasn’t called into the conference line yet. Okay, well, uh, when when we do connect with her, um, we will be talking about save dot org’s. The issue is that the dot org’s domain that we all use I don’t use you all use. I actually don’t use I’m dot com for my for my business. Um, but you all use it. You know how important it is. There’s the potential that it will be managed by, ah company ethos, which is the water, you know, you may know ethos water. Um, that’s the company that may gain control of the dot or domain. And Amy and I will talk about how these things are all managed. Um, we

[00:31:03.55] spk_2:
have Amy as Amy called in yet

[00:31:40.84] spk_3:
means not. Okay, So what we’re gonna do is, um Let’s do the live listener. Love will do that. And if you will give me a nen dull Jin ce for a few seconds, I’m gonna get my phone and share with Emily. Amy sample Ward’s contact info so that Emily can text and call Amy. So hang on while I get my phone. Okay? The dreaded dead airtime.

[00:31:43.74] spk_2:
But I told

[00:32:11.54] spk_3:
you was coming. So, uh, you had you had time to prepare, so it should not have been dreadful. Uh, for you, So I’m getting her in my pulling up in my contacts. Okay, Emily, Here you go. There’s the ways to contact Amy. Sample word. Please Do use my phone actually, or whatever you want to use. All right, so we’ll be talking about dot Organ. There’s a movement. Does The hashtag is saved dot or Ge? Well, I’m only works

[00:32:29.19] spk_2:
on that. Let’s do the lifeless in love and it is extensive. My gosh, Um let’s go abroad first. Tokyo, Japan! Oh, konnichi wa Ramat Gone Israel! Welcome, Live! Listen, love to Israel as well as Japan. Gwangju, South Korea. You’ve

[00:32:35.28] spk_3:
been with us before. Gwangju. Thank you so much. Seoul, South Korea as well. Um

[00:32:41.53] spk_2:
Brazil. Mina Mina Gerais meant Minas Gerais. Jakarta, Indonesia,

[00:32:42.64] spk_3:
Capital of Indonesia, of

[00:33:07.84] spk_2:
course. Live! Listen, love Thio. Each of our foreign listeners and they continue coaching men city in Vietnam. And, uh, well, we see Vietnam from time to time. Thank you. Live low about to Vietnam and touch skin sherry in Uzbekistan. Yeah, it was Pakistan. Not too often, but we’ve heard from you before. So very glad. Very glad you’re with us. Who’s Becca? Stan? Vietnam, Indonesia, Brazil, South Korea, Israel, Japan.

[00:33:20.68] spk_3:
Multiple. South Korea, of course. Want credit that live? Listen, love. After each of those, uh, countries and coming abroad, we’ve got, um Brooklyn, New

[00:33:24.94] spk_2:
York, Cheyney State Park, Kansas. That’s interesting. Cheyney State Park. Are you actually in the state park? You can, uh that’s interesting. You listening from the State Park. Wonderful. I’m a very

[00:33:43.26] spk_3:
big advocate of state parks. Public lands. You got it. You gotta have park. That used to be the motto in New York City, but it applies throughout the country. Doesn’t matter. Of course you gotta have park green space. Um,

[00:33:49.29] spk_2:
Ashburn, Virginia. San Francisco, California, Tampa, Florida, Fairfield, Connecticut. Live love everywhere. We’ve got her. Okay, well, on the heels of the live love Let’s see now we got to make her wait,

[00:33:55.85] spk_3:
because there’s no way that I’m doing a lot of love without the podcast pleasantry. So now she’s gonna

[00:33:59.60] spk_2:
have to wait. She called in late. It’s our own fault. Um, the podcast pleasantries are over 13,000 listeners.

[00:34:06.65] spk_3:
You heard me say it on Tony’s Take Two. But

[00:34:09.17] spk_2:
I’m grateful. Thank you so

[00:34:10.49] spk_3:
much for being a part of our listener audience. The podcast listeners. Thank you.

[00:34:23.20] spk_2:
Any sample Ward. She’s our social media and technology contributor and the CEO of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change Anytime, everywhere

[00:34:26.74] spk_3:
about online multi channel engagement. She’s

[00:34:32.63] spk_2:
that amy sample ward dot org’s oh dot org’s. This is considered a potential personal personal threat dot ord and she’s at a me RS ward. Any sample ward. Welcome back.

[00:34:53.87] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m not sure what happened. I’ve been trying since, like, 10 20 to get in. And I assume I always assume user error trying to re dial, and it never let me in.

[00:34:57.38] spk_2:
Okay, Well, we had the same trouble

[00:34:58.91] spk_3:
here, actually trying to connect with Jean Takagi. We saw that he was in the conference system, but we couldn’t get in ourselves to connect with him so on. And so it’s probably not user error times, too. There’s something flunky.

[00:35:12.16] spk_2:
And the reason we’re using

[00:35:21.69] spk_3:
this conference system and rather than having you call the studio directly, which we almost always do, is because there’s some problem with the with

[00:35:21.81] spk_2:
the phone line. Four lines? Yeah.

[00:35:23.94] spk_3:
So we’re using the conference line. Of course, we need the phone line to get the company line, But

[00:35:33.87] spk_2:
anyway, well, you’re a technology technologist, our technology contributor. It’s wonderful until it fails. I mean, I’m almost I’m almost sorry for saying this. I do apologizing. That was gratified that you have trouble with technology too.

[00:35:43.21] spk_0:
Oh, don’t worry. People are always so happy when an 10

[00:35:46.72] spk_2:
says that something

[00:35:48.02] spk_0:
that happened because it’s so validating.

[00:35:51.43] spk_2:
You

[00:36:22.00] spk_0:
know, it happens to all of us, because at the end of the day, all these tools, they’re just tools, right? They’re not perfect systems. Humans built all of them and humans that themselves. They’re not perfect. So things are bound to happen. But I think it’s really interesting the way folks respond when something, you know, technological is happening. That is not what they want. You know, the folks who get really frustrated and upset, and it’s like, Well, sure, But you know, how far is that getting

[00:36:23.35] spk_2:
you

[00:36:24.02] spk_0:
or the folks who are like, Oh, I’m gonna you know, like MacGyver my way around, just like you all did. So good. Good for you for having a productive response,

[00:36:34.73] spk_2:
Thank you very much. And for you as well.

[00:36:36.44] spk_3:
You kept trying. And, uh, I could I could imagine that your frustration was growing as 10 30 Pacific time came and went, which is the time I I was expecting your call. I can imagine your heart rate was rising blood pressure as well. But you

[00:36:51.11] spk_2:
mean I mean,

[00:36:51.78] spk_0:
what could you know? I usually like to dial in early and listen.

[00:36:54.52] spk_3:
Yes.

[00:36:55.08] spk_0:
And so I tried. But

[00:36:57.23] spk_2:
you know, to know about it

[00:37:00.06] spk_0:
anyway, here I am.

[00:37:04.26] spk_2:
Indeed, let’s talk about save dot or ge I While we were waiting

[00:37:06.00] spk_3:
for you, I was introducing the topic. I explained the listeners that there’s the potential that the dot org’s domain could be managed by a private company

[00:37:20.46] spk_2:
ethos My saying that right? Or they are ethos right ethos. Okay, which is the water that they’re also there? I think

[00:37:25.44] spk_3:
they’re best known for water. At least that’s the way I know them. Their social.

[00:37:26.07] spk_2:
No, they’re

[00:37:26.36] spk_0:
brand new, so I don’t think they’re best known for anything.

[00:37:29.42] spk_3:
Oh, listen to the oh, we’re

[00:37:37.08] spk_2:
already getting. They’re already getting some attitude about this subject. All right there, Brandon. E. Hear it? I heard the tone. I know you. I heard that tone. All right, so this is not the ethos water company,

[00:37:42.12] spk_0:
brand new

[00:37:42.83] spk_2:
private

[00:37:43.21] spk_0:
equity firm.

[00:37:43.81] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, brand new

[00:37:45.14] spk_3:
private equity firm. Okay. I didn’t know it was brand new. I just kept seeing equity from All right. So

[00:37:49.39] spk_2:
let’s introduce, I think to get our way into this, we need to understand how

[00:37:54.06] spk_3:
this domain the dot org’s domain is managed. I mean, and I know you’ll be right. I know you’ll be judicious about acronyms because you don’t want to end up in jargon jail S o, I

[00:38:05.01] spk_2:
think. But I think it helps to understand how this

[00:38:07.05] spk_3:
thing this dot org’s is managed.

[00:38:13.47] spk_0:
Right. Okay, so I’m going to try and explain in some somewhat basic terms.

[00:38:18.47] spk_2:
Okay, But then

[00:38:22.62] spk_0:
I will rely on you to interject questions or fast forward or pause, you know, as I go.

[00:38:26.84] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:39:42.59] spk_0:
Okay. So the internet, everyone listening has used it. I’s probably using it to listen even And we know that website, You know, we don’t just write non profit radio. We write non profit radio dot whatever, and the part of the website that comes at the dot whatever follows is called a top level domain. So there cannot. We can’t just go make one up. Those top level domains are managed, and there’s only so many of them. And I can they use the acronym I can as their name, which stands for Internet Corporation for assigned names and numbers. There you can kind of think about them is like the body that’s mento. Organize the Internet, So they’re the ones that say OK, you know, we’re allowed to use dot com and dot or GE and dot I owe and dot. Whatever else, they’re kind of the keepers of the order. So they are involved in olive ist as those keepers of the order. Okay, The next group we need to talk about is the Internet society that is a nonprofit organization, and their mission is essentially to promote a globally connected and trustworthy Internet.

[00:39:48.31] spk_3:
Okay, listeners may see the acronym I s O. C, right. Let’s

[00:39:54.36] spk_2:
have the night knock Internet society yet.

[00:40:31.46] spk_0:
So, almost 20 years ago there, when I can waas working to continue their their work and managing those top level domains, uh, they bid tohave the contract for the dot org’s domain. And there was a lot of conversation about the value of a non profit managing the top level domain that’s essentially four non profit right instead of a four profit domain registrar.

[00:40:36.01] spk_2:
So I can I can is itself a non profit. Yes, okay.

[00:42:38.49] spk_0:
And Internet society is non profit, and they they won the dot or contract, and in the process of that, created another non profit called public interest registry PR, which would be the organization that owned the contract and operationally managed it. But P I. R. Was connected to Internet society, so Internet Society was choosing the board for P i. R. And revenue kickbacks went to Internet society, that kind of thing. So there very closely related as organizations. You No one is like the owner of the other. And for the last, like 18 years or so, PR has managed the dot or domain, and their work has included managing that. Making sure that there’s, um, resource is for non profit. They have they have, you know, everything from sponsoring events to funding training programs, Thio investing in research about, you know, the way non prophecies, the Internet. They’ve done lots of things to kind of re invest the money they make into the use of the Internet by non profit, and everyone kind of thought things were fine. Who write things are moving along just fine, and last month’s just over a month ago from today. All of a sudden, there was an announcement from Andrewsullivan, the executive director of the Internet Society, that they we’re going to sell P. I r to a private equity firm and that it was essentially great news because Internet society would get so much money from the sale that they would create an endowment for themselves. That was kind of position is the only the good news about this was because it would just be so much money for them.

[00:42:44.95] spk_2:
Okay, that was that. That was obviously early day.

[00:42:48.45] spk_3:
That was early day, because I in my research, I didn’t find I didn’t even find that anymore. So that that

[00:42:54.27] spk_2:
must have been that their first position. I’ll tell you what. We got to take our

[00:42:56.90] spk_3:
break, Theo. Only one we need to take. And then you and I can continue to invest the show. Okay. Thank you. Um,

[00:43:04.35] spk_2:
have you ever wondered why some nonprofits

[00:43:13.42] spk_3:
are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do just that. They are themselves former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage.

[00:43:29.45] spk_2:
It’s all about the relationships almost in life. What isn’t There are turn hyphen

[00:43:41.49] spk_3:
to dot ceo, all right. And we have but loads more time for Amy Sample Ward and save dot org’s. Okay, So the initial justification for this well, it’s not really much of a initial rationale. It’s not even it didn’t even didn’t even bother with justification. Just initial rationale was this will be good for I sock will make a lot of money by selling P I R.

[00:43:53.80] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:43:54.31] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:43:59.51] spk_0:
which of course, uh, raise a lot of questions.

[00:44:02.12] spk_2:
A lot of black people.

[00:44:32.91] spk_0:
And now the second piece that we need to talk about happened months before this announcement. So back in the early spring, the contract details for the dot or contract were up for renegotiation with I can and a few things happened in that renegotiation that already have the community kind of in critical response. Those things included some changes to what had, for a long time been part of the contract. One of those was taking away the price cats, so prices could be set at whatever was desired.

[00:44:45.21] spk_2:
The price for

[00:44:47.40] spk_3:
a dot org’s domain is very low, right?

[00:44:50.79] spk_0:
It’s about $10

[00:44:52.71] spk_3:
$10 for the year. Okay,

[00:44:54.88] spk_2:
Okay, you’re more acquainted

[00:44:56.72] spk_3:
with this and I am because I don’t use dot org’s I love Dot or GQ. You know, I make my living at dot org’s, but I don’t I don’t use it personally, All right? So, yeah, it’s $10 a year. Okay, so they’re So the initial conversation about a contract renewal was take away those takeaway a price cap,

[00:45:23.25] spk_0:
take away the price cap, and then some other pieces that essentially made folks feel that it could be organizations with these domains. There’s some vulnerabilities around censorship and that kind of thing.

[00:45:30.91] spk_2:
Okay, So a

[00:45:31.79] spk_0:
number of organizations

[00:45:33.22] spk_2:
and

[00:46:04.28] spk_0:
people had responded to those changes back in the summer and spring saying, you know, Hey, wait a second. This is not right. This does not feel right. This is, you know, longstanding components of the contract. Why’re these Chicken Jane? And despite overwhelming over 3000 responses saying don’t do this, I can. And public interest registry went ahead and the contract gotta prove that way.

[00:46:05.26] spk_3:
Ok, wasn’t I? Sock, actually, isn’t I Sock?

[00:46:09.57] spk_0:
I can

[00:46:10.46] spk_2:
I can. Okay, but I stock

[00:46:12.67] spk_3:
owns public interest registry, right?

[00:46:15.88] spk_0:
Sure. But public interest registry is kind of the manager there. The owner of the contract.

[00:46:21.62] spk_3:
Ok, ok, and they’re the ones who managed the managed. OK, all right, So now

[00:46:43.06] spk_0:
and what is kind of an added so we can think about it as there’s all of these changes happening? And then, isn’t it so convenient that now a private equity firm is willing to pay over a $1,000,000,000 for this contract that no longer includes price caps and includes some vulnerabilities around?

[00:46:50.72] spk_2:
Wait. Oh, I hold on. I didn’t see that. The price tag is over a $1,000,000,000.

[00:46:57.22] spk_0:
$1.12 billion.

[00:47:11.85] spk_2:
Wow. Okay, I did not see that. I was I was wondering, but I hope she’s okay. So All right, so the question All right, So let’s let’s fast forward now. You aren’t

[00:47:20.74] spk_0:
even following who don’t. Maybe you don’t even work in a non profit that has a doubt or domain. You can already see from, like a, you know, business magazine perspective. What? What seems questionable about the situation?

[00:47:29.30] spk_2:
How the hell are they? How the hell is going to make all that money back, right? Yes. On the backs of

[00:47:34.24] spk_3:
America’s 1.3 million charities.

[00:47:37.88] spk_0:
Well, and keep in mind, this is for the entire globe. this is non profit over the entire

[00:47:43.35] spk_2:
world way. Talk

[00:47:49.38] spk_0:
about wanting to have a human rights lens on reviewing this transaction. When we talk about vulnerabilities for censorship, we’re thinking about non profit, not necessarily in the U. S. We’re thinking about non profit in parts of the world where they rely on a dot or domain so that people here in the U. S. No. Oh, this must be a new organization doing good work. I’m willing to donate to them. I’m willing to support them. They’re likely doing work in a geographic region where their government is not in support of what they’re doing right. And having vulnerabilities for censorship means their government could just turn their website off. Right?

[00:48:28.27] spk_2:
So,

[00:49:21.43] spk_0:
uh, there’s a lot happening that is sure maybe not happening in this moment, but very, very likely could happen, right, because these changes have happened. So, um, what has also been challenging is that in a few of these public forums and 10 held a community call and invited the folks from Internet society and PR to come. And John Nevins said that he asked for those changes to be added into the contract, which kind of further creates this web of questioning about who knew this was happening. And how long was this plan, right? If those changes to the contract are what made the contract worth apparently over a $1,000,000,000 how did all of this happen?

[00:49:23.63] spk_2:
Did you have someone from ethos on the call?

[00:49:30.23] spk_0:
We did Eric Brooks, That Theo.

[00:49:50.31] spk_3:
Okay. And he has, uh, yes, I wanna be. I wanna be balanced here because he has a block post that from December 16th where he answers some of the answers, all the questions that a Mozilla Block post had had asked

[00:49:57.17] spk_0:
Answer some of those questions and I would say responded to them. Did not answer them,

[00:50:29.66] spk_3:
You would say responded. Okay, okay. So, like, for instance, on the pricing, um, what assurances gonna dot Or community have that ethos and p i r will keep their promises regarding price increases. We’re committed to limit increases for dot, or domain registrations prices to no more than 10% per year on average, based on domain prices today, that would equate to an additional $1 per year. We plan to embed these pricing commitments in our public benefit LLC or other corporate governing documents that that doesn’t care. Is that not satisfactory?

[00:50:43.24] spk_0:
No, I mean on average. So that could say, over the next 20 years, the average has been 10%. We all understand that Average doesn’t mean every year has to be.

[00:51:05.50] spk_3:
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now Eric says that they are Ah, they’re going to create a P I R. Stewardship Council. Right now, The Stewardship Council, um, concept behind our proposal is to put in place a dot org’s community advisory board body. The council will seek input from the daughter of community and convey the needs of the data or community to P i R. Management provide advice to p ay, our leadership on key matters impacting the daughter of community. And the leading voice in recommending new service is capabilities to be offered through the dot org’s platform to serve the mission driven community.

[00:51:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:51:31.06] spk_3:
okay. What? You know,

[00:52:33.02] spk_0:
they had a, uh webinar. I guess you’d call it yesterday. So did and spoke at more length. It wasn’t a discussion or, you know, they didn’t take live questions or anything like that. But they spoke at more length about the same topics. And what we can understand about this advisory council is that the P. I. R. Board and the folks already working there working within this deal will choose who the council is. The council has no actual authority. Oh, our mechanisms for accountability. And, you know, it’s like a group that they have chosen that they say is able to give be back. So I don’t see how it addresses any of the kind of concerns that rest of the dot or community has for riel accountability.

[00:52:35.39] spk_3:
Okay, so your concern is that it would just be like an advisory board on sort of perfunctory and not not without really thought without authority. The authority would

[00:52:48.12] spk_2:
still be may not

[00:52:52.65] spk_0:
be folks who would have divers or critical views because their hand selected.

[00:52:57.75] spk_2:
Okay, well, hey, did say

[00:53:09.60] spk_3:
again Eric Brooks in his block post. He said that there would be standards for qualifications for membership on the stewardship Council. So

[00:53:10.65] spk_0:
sure,

[00:53:11.40] spk_2:
they would think

[00:53:12.31] spk_0:
that’s a pretty like white, dominant view of saying I’m gonna choose my friends.

[00:53:31.50] spk_3:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because, Well, yeah, The question is whether the dot or community would have input into, I guess I guess we’re talking about. Enter the terms of this disagreement between ethos and I saw. Right,

[00:53:32.83] spk_0:
Right. So we’re moving from a world where the dot or contract is managed by a non profit organization who would also managed by a non profit er organization and into a world where the dot or contract is held by a for profit entity owned by a private equity firm.

[00:53:50.69] spk_2:
Do it right. Just the principles

[00:54:02.33] spk_0:
of those organizational set up completely changes the context in which the dot or contract is maintained. Right? We’re going from a non profit entity reinvesting any additional funds back into the sector to two organizations that are really meant to maximize profit. Right?

[00:54:18.87] spk_3:
I understand. I do understand. And this falls into the category of I I’ve noticed this more in the past 10 years or so. We

[00:54:23.50] spk_2:
have to I feel like I have to fight Maur for what I did to keep status quo.

[00:54:28.65] spk_4:
Um

[00:54:29.74] spk_0:
Yep.

[00:54:32.60] spk_3:
So this is something that all

[00:54:32.93] spk_0:
right, let alone progress.

[00:54:37.08] spk_2:
But yeah, I’m just I’m just Internet

[00:54:54.29] spk_0:
society. Didn’t feel that it was sustainable to manage PR PR didn’t feel like it was manageable. Thio sustain the dot or contract there’s a different solution to that than completely, you know, throwing it out.

[00:54:56.36] spk_3:
I understand. All right. I’m

[00:54:57.40] spk_2:
gonna let us go

[00:54:57.93] spk_3:
a little longer. We are. Typically, we would end right about now, but let’s let’s go another few minutes. Not not not 10 minutes. Because listeners are pretty much counting on on our but, you know, really go another 45 minutes.

[00:55:09.79] spk_2:
Do we know how much

[00:55:12.26] spk_3:
revenue P I R earns? I don’t know. Over the

[00:55:16.01] spk_2:
past years, Annual 19 nineties

[00:55:18.24] spk_0:
and that kind of thing.

[00:55:20.44] spk_2:
Okay, what do you know?

[00:55:21.19] spk_0:
It’s like 90 year.

[00:55:24.12] spk_3:
90 year? Okay. And you’re saying that the contract price is 1.1 billion?

[00:55:30.09] spk_0:
Correct.

[00:55:40.30] spk_3:
Okay. It takes a long time at night at the rate of 90 year to earn back 1.1 billion. And then it’s a venture profit. It’s a venture capital firm. Well, Fletcher, profit venture capital firm, which is a which is a profit profit firm,

[00:55:46.59] spk_2:
that it would be a long

[00:55:47.44] spk_0:
time if you had price caps.

[00:56:00.20] spk_3:
Yes, but there may be other methods, you know, we’re not, you know, we’re not venture capitalists, so I guess you know it comes with a healthy dose of suspicion, not just skepticism,

[00:56:02.04] spk_2:
but I mean challenge. There’s

[00:56:04.47] spk_0:
so little information that’s been shared and so

[00:56:06.68] spk_2:
many questions way.

[00:56:29.19] spk_0:
We have asked, you know how in the community Call it and 10 held. We directly asked Capital if they could confirm how long they plan to own the new version of public interest registry, whatever the new or profit is, how long they plan, tone and invest in that company. And they their answer was a really long time in terms of this work. Okay, well, in terms of private equity, I mean, a year could be a long

[00:56:38.39] spk_2:
time, you know,

[00:56:55.20] spk_3:
Right on his block post. Eric Brooks says Ethos has stated on multiple occasions that we are committed to investing. P I R for the long haul. Are investors include families and not profit acquisitions with long term investment horizons. Um, okay, now, but

[00:56:56.08] spk_2:
your concern is that they could resell it and then and then and then we And then it’s then it’s

[00:57:27.76] spk_3:
between 22 Private. Well, even if their public to four profit entities contracting and the outside community has no input into what contracts are between two companies any more than you know any more than we can comment on intends contracts with vendors for NTC, it becomes a matter of private contract in the case of every sale. Okay. All right. What should, uh, what your listeners do. What should we be doing? We gotta we gotta

[00:57:34.50] spk_2:
move on What you’ll do, you really

[00:57:36.45] spk_0:
love? You can

[00:57:37.14] spk_2:
go

[00:58:25.50] spk_0:
to save dot org’s dot org’s s a V e D o t org dot or GE where we have posted the recording of the community call, for example, if you want to be able to hear what the folks from these companies have said, uh, you can see the letter that we’ve sent to them that outlined some of the issues in the contract and what is really important right now. As for organizations to sign on and endorse our request that the sale stop or if you can’t sign on behalf of your organization, sign as a person as an individual. Right now there’s almost 550 organizations who have signed on, and we have almost 19,000 people who signed on those numbers really matter and help demonstrate that this isn’t you know, just in 10 and e f f who have a problem, right? This is a lot of organizations diverse people who understand that this is not in the best interest of a non profit, you know, four good world of the internet.

[00:59:14.24] spk_3:
Okay, Andi, uh, some of the other organizations involved Association of junior leagues. I’m just sampling from from a list of crisis text line do something dot org’s listeners know Aria finger Do something dot or GE ff Electronic Frontier Foundation Girl Scouts of us A Independent Sector Meals on Wheels America, National Council of Nonprofits and 10 Techsoup Volunteer Match Volunteers of America Wicked Media Y M C A of the U. S. A Y W c A U s A. All right, Amy Sample Ward. Thank you very much.

[00:59:22.12] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Tony. I really appreciate you kind of diving into this when I know it can feel a little acronym heavy, but it really will impact every single non profit

[00:59:33.62] spk_3:
Amy Sample word social media and technology contributor and CEO of in 10. You’ll find her at Amy sample ward dot or ge and at a M. E. R. S

[00:59:40.76] spk_2:
board and Aimee. Simple word. Lots of good wishes for your holidays. And for 2020. That’s a good wishes. Radio,

[00:59:47.02] spk_0:
I hope 2020 means we get to see each other in person.

[00:59:51.12] spk_2:
Well, we will it ntc

[00:59:52.47] spk_3:
But we need to go beyond that. Hopefully.

[00:59:54.43] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:59:56.03] spk_3:
Thank you so much, Amy.

[00:59:59.01] spk_2:
Next week and the week after, there are no shows. I hope you enjoy. Enjoy the hell

[01:00:24.21] spk_3:
out of your holidays. Take time for yourself. Disconnect off grid. You know what all that means? I don’t need to flush it out. I hope you do it. I hope you do it for yourself. Friends, Family. Do it. Take the time you need. You need to take time for yourself because you’re in a giving profession. So no show for two weeks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

Nonprofit Radio for October 4, 2019: Beyond Local & Online To IRL

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped for the diagnosis of trypanosomiasis if you infected me with the idea that you missed today’s show beyond local We’re talking about scaling your community. You want to go regional, national global, stay online or move to in real life. My guest from 19 and T. C is Emma Tony with social techno, and this is our last of the 30 to 19 ntcdinosaur views and online to i r l Amy Sample Ward continues our convo and focuses on in real life community building. Drawing on intense experience, she has strategies for growth and local empowerment and shares. Resource is she’s our social media and technology contributor and intends CEO Tony’s take two planned giving thievery responsive by witnessed e. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non-profits your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO and here is beyond local. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 NTC. That’s the 19. That’s 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. We’re at the convention center in Portland, Oregon. All of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue free fund-raising Tools for non-profits to help them make an impact. But I’m right now with Emma Tony. She’s a marketing manager at social techno and, uh, welcome, Emma. Thank you. Thank you, Tony. Does it have you? Andi, your topic is creating global communities online and in real life. So we’re talking about scaling groups. So you might have a local group. Might be a tech group. Might be a healthcare group for chess playing or dog walking. I don’t know. You have a community, local community somewhere. And we’re talking about scaling that you might not go global, but maybe you’ll go statewide from town or national to st. You wantto You wanna help us do that? Yeah, s o in Texas. We are actually a global community. So we round in Italy, as social tech knows essential enterprise. The text of global Network program. So actually we are. We have been scaled by a tech soup and precisely in, especially in Italy, we have different kind off communities. We are building up in the third sector. Um, for example, we gather people from different sector. We didn’t the non-profit one that help and we enable collaboration and relationship with between these kind of people. And we help to connect this people with other organizations abroad. So we really believe in the power off connecting people around the world. And we do this via, for example, train activities or out of events we do in Italy as well as in the Europe will get a chance to dive into the details. But you’re doing this both online and in real life. Yeah. Where you based in Italy were busy. Milan, You’re in Milan. I have spent a little time there. I flew in and out of that. Malpensa is the airport. Yeah, but I’ve spent a couple nights in Milan. I know, but I’ve been to really I’ve been totally five times. Uh, from Rome. Naples, way down South Georgia. Toto, which is in Calabria, of course. Vonette Cia, Forenza Bland Palermo. Ging quit arika. Yeah. Come back, durney. I have I will again. But I have been back many times. There are other places to visit to after I think they have to be more egalitarian about my my international travel. You spread it out a bit. Um Okay, So, um, how do we get started? I suppose we let’s ah, let’s say because more likely for our listeners, Aaron Small and midsize non-profits. So it’s more likely that there let’s say their local or they might be statewide and they want to go from they want to go to statewide if their local or national you know, if they’re if they’re statewide, how do we How do we get started? We have this ambition. Now what do we have? How do we channel our ambition? Thio, meet our goal to be statewide national. I would say Let’s start from your mission. If your mission is, um is strong enough and it’s it’s scalable. Let’s say so. If you have a mission that could be actually spread it around the world. So stuff from that and ask yourself what’s the best? The best way to scale this mission around the world. For example, in tech soup, we do have the mission off building a bridge between no profits and the technology and to empower non-profits in the use of technology with air. Well, they’re on a mission. So beginning from these, the statement we were like, What’s the best play to the best way to, you know, to do these two actual to deliver these mission around the world is to be partner off local s social enterprises around the word. So actually, the Texas back-up program is round by social enterprises. Locally, look for look for local partners. Exactly. Get started. Exactly. So our claim is they need these global and so we are. So they need is the need for technology and the use off a technology from the non-profit secretaries is something that it’s global, but only the local enterprises, Maybe they do have that knowledge about the non-profit locally, that is, that enables the tax up to, uh to run their their mission locally. Okay, so they have the knowledge off the territory, the knowledge off the third sector in the nation. So this is the model that we use. So think about the mission and the better as well. The business model that can fit. Because, of course, there’s gonna be local expertise. Yeah, you know your scale. It’s it’s expertise in a in a nation, my example. It’s local. It’s expertise a little broader in your state or in other states, um helps to have that buy-in and on dat knowledge of culture then and also because you’re your topic and we’re talking about in real life. So ultimately, we want to get not just from online communities. We want we want to be meeting face to face. And if you have local partners, you’ll have maybe some brick and mortar. Or at least you know where you can gather. You know you’ll have those local contacts. Yeah, for example, we do have a known online platform that we share with the older partners off tax, which are more than 70 in 230 plus countries in the world. So we have this platform in common, but actually, when it comes to real life, we really rely on the initiative of the single partner in the nation. So, for example, in Italy, we do a lot off local events around around Italy to help non-profits to get access to the technology as well as food and wine events. Absolutely absolutely Happy hour thing. Part off the key important meeting in the morning after hours. Exactly Good. Yeah, it’s a good way to networking actions, so you need in person over food and drink. It’s time for a break. Witness C P. A’s They had a wagon are on September 25th. It was exempt or nonexempt. Forget it. You missed it. But you do know that you still need to classify your employees correctly. So don’t worry. You got nothing to worry about because you watch the archive. You goto Wagner cps dot com Click Resource is and recorded events that simple. Now let’s go back to beyond Local Let’s see what else we talked about flexible of programs, programs that adjust to the local culture. How do you, um, how do you think about that? And you met you make those adjustments and have that kind of flexibility. When you’re you’re a global organization, you’re there. So there is an umbrella organization. There’s gotta be some structure, but you want to be flexible enough to accommodate other other cultures to how do you balance those? Yeah, for example, tech soup. Global rounds tax, of course, is mainly online. So and we decided to go for these models. So we do provide courses online, but as well as in person. So because in Italy will are a small country, right. So we have the possibility off also for the location where we are small, small, but beautiful. Exactly. So we are the capability to reach out to people, to gather people in a room and to deliver workshops and also in tailor made courses and train activities in house like we go to the non-profit and we hold workshops on their premises. So, you know, disease are kind off. Um, this is the way we scaled program, which is international, about the courses. And we adjusted to the specific reality off the Italian lorts sector. Now, tech soup also needs to manage language language barriers. Now, in my example, we’re not gonna have language barriers, Although somebody from the north might not understand someone from the South. But that’s more mindset, I think, than language and language. But in your case, how do you overcome barriers of language for an international organization? So we partners off tax super. We have the zoning platform where we all work together in on. Actually, the off course. English is key to collaborate, but also all the materials, the tool kids, the marketing materials as well that we share our translator localized by the single partner. Also because, um, it’s not not not only a matter off translating the words, it’s some better off finding the right communication words for your audience. Because if you talk about, for example, digital transformation, you have to, ah, took with the words off your audience. So it’s not only a matter off translating from English, it’s a matter off getting the same wavelength off your audience. So it’s on this kind of work. Okay, okay. So well, there again, you have your local partners think valuable for that. Um, so tech soup has, uh, they have their social events as well? A CZ. You want to keep it social too? I mean, aside from the learning the learning environments, do you have just purely social events as well? Is that valuable? Yeah. In Italy, we do a lot off local events with our donor partners, For example, you know, Google Airbnb. Microsoft s so big brands, Um, and the in-kind off events locally that we we host our training activities mainly. So we have we Our mission is to build capacity and digital competences your sector. So we do. Do you have some social events also that are not training oriented? Just pure social? Um, yeah. Networking events with some began NGOs are ampules in the in Italy yet, you know, to spread the voice about tax soup to build strategic partnership and relationships with some non-profit organizations in the territory s Oh, yeah. We do have also live events on Facebook as well, because it’s a It’s a community, which, where, um, that it’s built on online and offline. Is there also? Ah, you know, people Facebook. Facebook is annoying. A lot of people I see, I actually see. I see a lot of people moving to zoom video over Facebook live. I’ve done that myself. But I’m not just using myself as an example. You got the idea from a lot of other people. Okay, Who? I’ve, um I just I just see getting away from Facebook live. I’m invited to fewer Facebook live events, and I’ve been invited to more zoom events in the in the past year than had been in previous years. Yeah, this is a good example off and not a scalable tool. Because if I if I you would do ah Azuma event in Italy, they wouldn’t understand even what zoom is maybe no. So they must use use the tool for prom M peels in Italy are eyes facebook. So you need to ask yourself, Where is my audience? You’re internationally. Zoom is not exactly so. You need to ask yourself Where is these? May be a great idea. Maybe we do use, for example, tools that are not used by at the other impurities in Italy. But not because we are enthusiastic about the tool is that means that it’s used from from Iran. So I really have to be humbled to ask yourself, Where is my union’s? Am I willing to reach out to them where they are, where they’re very good point? Yeah, you’re right. Zoom is not international. And Facebook. Facebook is a big advocate of zoom. Yeah, but absolutely right. Good point. Thank you. Um, you also made another point about corporate sponsorships. If you’re going abroad or you’re just going beyond your own communities. I’ve been saying, um there may be a sponsorship opportunities for for your events in the places where you’re expanding too. Yeah. Could you mentioned Airbnb and, uh, Microsoft? Yeah. Or, for example, with Amazon web services. We did our road show, which is actually international. So we started over in in Italy. It’s basically our train activity about all the services off Amazon for the non-profits. Um, so we started in Italy, and they got enthusiast about this this kind of event. So they scaled in the UK and in Australia working alongside with the local Texas partners. So this is on. This is a good chance to get funding for, for an event, get the non-profit trained about that digital tools and make everyone happy. Another possibility. Overlap between doing international work and maybe and going national is time zones. How do you How do you overcome internationally? You can have 12 hours difference, but nationally, you know, if you just if you’re going from your state to the country just three hours difference, but that can That can make a difference. How do you What’s your advice for overcoming time zone differences, We plan ahead. So if we have to work with the U. S colleagues, for example, we plan Thio, you know, to make the actions Radi before you know the time zones. Um so actually, we we use a lot off tools for project management. A share with the colleagues. Ah, lot off. You know, also teamwork, um, tools that help us to keep up to date with the medical leagues. So, yeah, we really rely on these kind of tools, like slack or yeah, So we leave that. Okay? Yeah. I live on a little more about having things ready in advance. What do you mean, there? Eso? Because we have a lot off that lines, for example, for launching a new product for launching a new program which is international. So we are alerted by the US colleagues, and then we plan ahead or our actions so that when they when they say we go live on this day, we are already we are ready to be to be live. Um, you talk some about threats of closing civic spaces. I don’t know if that could happen in the U. S. It seems like anything could happen these days, so I’m not gonna discount that possibility. What? What? One of the problems there first. Before you get to what? What you do too, to try to help prevent that. But what problems do you have about closing of civic spaces? Um, we don’t have these big issue in Italy, to be honest, but we are experiencing Ah, great reform off the off the third sector, which is like shrinking the power off non-profit toe, make a greater social impact in terms off hyre toe toe, make the, for example, some restrictions, some fines as well a taxation. They are getting higher and higher. So you know these These are little adjustments to the low that actually prevent ah, no profits to have the freedom to act finds for what? For purposes finds for what reason? Because And the main finishes suppression. What’s the What’s the reason? Yeah, The main issue is they want to get rid off the little organization that the head doesn’t have, ah, social impact. So the little months made up off 1 to 2 people, they want to structure them as an enterprise or as our structure impute so they don’t want to have a long tail off the sort of sector, saying that there are billions off non-profits that they have just the label. But they don’t do actually something impactful. Back-up uh, what’s telling What’s the reaction among the third sector in Italy? Thio. Making operations more efficient? What’s the reaction? There is a lot of buzz. Ah, and also they are forced to publish, like a balance sheet off their activities and our social impact kind of assessment. So we expect super. We’re trying to help them to a bill this kindof assessment off their activities to be published online. There is a really a blurriness around this topic in Italy now because the reform is not published like formally now. So we’re still waiting for, you know, news and updates from the government. So this is a government agency that would yeah, coordinating all this data elearning on deciding which organizations can continue non-profits and which have to be enterprises incorporated as enterprising. And it’s becoming also like a requirement to be, um, at a certain point, digital s o. They are calling the third sector to be digital transformed, you know, So because this is our kind off our requirements from the low so way are trying to, you know, work with work week with the no profits toe. Get them trained. Is that Is that a change that could be legislated? Cannot be Yes. We all should be using technology smartly. It makes us more productive. But is that is that a change that could be give you created by government? Fiat Yeah. Okay, I get to I give you Ah little example. For example, now in Italy, it’s ah, it’s a low to make the voicing Onley digitally and Elektronik Lee so can’t have paper invoice anymore. No, no, no, no. For commercial. This is for companies also not just for the company itself, for from the small medium and large enterprises. So if your name Asmal our medium impose, you have to be ready for the electronic invoicing. So this is a trick, right? So you if you don’t have some digital skills or technology competences, you’re not ready to deliver the service. So this is an example Floor Yeah, s So what is the little what? What is the little, uh, a little past each area? How did they How did they take of the fruit flavored order on the corner. How did they How did they comply with this? I’m not sure they are involved in this kind of legislation, but for sure, the medium big M peels and enterprises are, for example, we as a social enterprise. We do deliver Elektronik invoicing now. Well, yeah, next to tech soup can I’m worried about All right, So you’re not so smart s o. So maybe it’s not the smallest businesses, or they are like, I suppose you just have three or four people. Family, family? Uh, yeah, family business on the corner. Uh, they are they covered by this way are 10 to 15 people in Texas, Italy. But we are, um, coping with, ah, lot off appeals. And we have the, you know, the donation program and the all the services. So we are absolutely involved in this in-kind off legislation because smaller non-profits are encompassed by that. Okay. Uh, no, you’re very interesting. He’s from the word. Pardon me news from from either in the world. Do we still have another five minutes or so together? What? What else? What else would you like to share on this topic? that we haven’t talked about yet. Um, for example, I’d like to share the fact that I would like to scale this kind of vivendi and 10 in Italy. Son was wondering if it’s feasible, actually, because it would be really interesting for the third sector in Italy to have this kind off initiative. And so, yeah, you doctor and 10 about that. Not yet. I knew some some off the text Super advisory board. The stuff easy involved in the intent is helping. Intend to plan this out? S Oh, yeah. Let’s see. Let’s see. I went to a I went to a fund-raising conference in Italy. I spoke at a fund-raising conference. Um, it was, uh, first of all, it was festival del fund-raising. Wow. Do you know it is their most probably five years ago or so? What’s the name of the man who runs the radio? Dellaccio Melinda. Melinda. You know Valerio durney? Well, he was teaching a columbia for a couple of years. Is he’s busy back home in Italy now, or Yeah, New York. No, no, no. He’s anything. You know, I met him when he was teaching at Columbia. Yeah. Valerio invited me Valerio. Melinda? Yeah, like this. We have friends. So he he holds a really interesting event about fund-raising. So we have the first of all. Yeah. Yeah. Still seal were sponsor off the this kind of event of sex of Italy. And also, we were trying to do the same four months off land about but about technology, so it would be really interesting. Okay, so there will be a intend Italy. So you know that I would come, I would come and I could talk about podcasting. Yeah, I heard there was a very popular podcasting workshop here. I could do a podcast in workshop there. Have how to start a podcast. I could actually. Oh, yeah. At the festival del fund-raising. I was talking about my other work, which is planned. E-giving. It’s a It’s a form plane. Giving fund-raising would Wouldn’t Wouldn’t be good for a tech soup. Confident I could totally do my other. My other friend in Italy is, uh, where this goes way back. My first trip in Italy. His name was Mario Bootsy. He’s not You don’t know Mario, but he’s from Milano, actually is from Wow. But But this was my first trip to Italy was in 1990. Notes. I graduated from law school. Was that 19 2098? No. When did I graduate from law school? In 1989 to 92? I graduate in 1992 So let’s go back to 1992. You were very young. Then Mario, Bootsy and I met. We were sitting next to each other at the We were there to see Aida at the Baths of Caracalla in Roma. So he’s a He was a bartender. He was a bartender in Milano, but he was on. It was August. He was a foregone stow the August vacation time. I’m not saying that for you listeners, you don’t know if argast Oh, is. It was for a ghost. Oh, so he was on vacation in in Roma. Um, I bought a ticket there, Aida at the Baths of Caracalla, which, of course, operated live operating room. It was a four or five hour production. There were live animal, there were camels and tigers and well, it’s the desert. Maybe the Warren Tigers. But whatever, there were camels. There were camels on the stage and Mario boats and and there were two intermissions because it’s so long. Mario Boats and I I spoke just a little bit of Italian poker, and he spoke even less English. But he and I carried on so well during the intermission, we had drinks together and then we walked back. He we left and we walked back. I walked back to my stay Attila pin pin Cioni on, uh, he was going back to wherever he was staying in Rome for his vacation time, but we got along famously for well, like a five hour production in another hour and 1/2. Walker’s because a long walk And I thought, You know, if the two of us Me and Mario Booty the new law student, the new law grad from I’ve been to law school through law grad from the U. S. And the bartender from Milano and we could get together this way and neither one of us has treyz translators. I thought, you know what a way to bridge differences over over Aida Karnak Ala was created because of me. Then community and I, we were in touch for a while, and then we’ve fallen out of touch instead. But But I still number his name? Mario. Bootsy. You have to come back. Oh, I’ve been okay. All right. I guess usually I let my guests wrap up, but I just Did you take the last few minutes encourage boards of encouragement? Um, stimulation, You know, what would you like to close with? Um, I would like to to tell to older non-profit sector around the world to be courage enough to take all the, um, their mission and their competences within the organization to strive to do the best to make our social impact, which is, ah, related to their territory specifically. And don’t forget to death globally and go global. All right. She is Emma Tony, marketing manager at Social Techno. And you are with Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 2019 ntcdinosaur profit Technology Conference. Emma, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, darling. Thank you, listeners. Very, very gracious. And all our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks for being with us. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for non-profits. Simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your accounting software? Have you got accounting software? You’re not still using Excel spreadsheets? I hope not. Please don’t tell me that. Cougar Mountain. If you’re in any of those situations where you can’t say yes to all those things or you’re still using spreadsheets, check out Cougar Mountain. They have a free 60 day trial. You’ll find that you know where on the listener landing page at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now, Time for Tony. Take two. I was accused of being a thief. Um, this was by a niece years ago who did not trust me with her aunts Jewelry. This is back when I was a nem ploy e a director of planned e-giving. What she said to me was just incredible. Um, she was, uh, she was trying to ask. She’s actually trying to curry favor with me because she wanted me to reduce the university’s interest. I was working at the University of the time, interest in an estate, and she was a beneficiary of the state. So if if I was willing to accept less for the university, she would have got more um it doesn’t work that way, but she didn’t understand that on dumb. Amazing. So she went so far as to accuse me of being a thief. And you just have to check out the video. Thio, Hear the full story? That’s with Peter Heller. He hosted me on Heller Consulting Group Video. Siri’s. You’ll find the video, though, on my site at tony martignetti dot com. And that is Tony. Take two. Let’s do the live love. It’s gotta go out If you’re listening live The love goes out to you wherever you are If you’re in New York, New York if you’re in Beijing Uh, who else checks infrequently? Oh, of course. Bangalore, India. We’ve heard from recently, uh, California. Often checking in, um, New Jersey, Yes, North Carolina. Wherever you are listening live The love goes out to you. So glad you’re with us. And the podcast Pleasantries. You gotta have it. Can’t If you’re gonna live us in love, You got a podcast. Pleasantries. You can’t have one without the other. So the pleasantries go out too. That’s where the vast majority of our audience those over 13,000 people listening each and every week. Amazing it really is amazing. I don’t know. Sometimes I wonder why Why you stick with this? But I know you’re not leaving because it’s good value. That’s why. So the podcast Pleasantries going out. Thank you for being with us at whatever time you listen. However, we fit into your weekly or monthly podcast scheduling pleasantries to you. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Amy Sample Ward. You know Amy Sample word. She’s our social media and technology contributor and CEO of inten. Her most recent co authored book is Social Change Anytime, Everywhere about online multi-channel engagement. She’s that Amy Sample War Dot or GE And at Amy R. S. Ward. They are, of course, for Renee. How are you? Any simple word? I’m good. I’m good. How are you? I’m doing very well, Thank you. Glad you’re with us. Back. Back with us. Yes, I It is always fun. OK, good, very state that very clearly so very clearly and emphatically. So it must be unless there’s somebody twisting your arm to say, Say, fun, tell him it’s fun, but it’s not because you’re in. You’re in Oregon and I’m in New York, so it’s not me doing that it must be someone else. Um, well, no. I do wish that we could coordinate for on in person, not at the NTC. Like back in New York in the studio recording for one of these? Yeah, You missed getting to go because it feels so much more official than just talking to you on the phone right now. You know, they’re with headphones on and a big microphone. That’s like, the proper way to do it. Yes, you do. Yeah. Andi, we’re in a new studio where two studios from the last duty or you were in with me. We’re not now. Yeah, we’re in a new studio. Just Ah, just a couple weeks. But this is my first recording in the new studio and tomorrow’s show we’re recording on Thursday. Of course, tomorrow’s show will be the very first, very first full show in the studio, so Yeah, well, when you’re in New York, you let me know and we’ll we’ll do our best to work it out. Okay, I will. Okay. In the meantime, let’s talk, uh, trans nationally, Um, and, uh, Emma. Emma, Tony was just talking about my burning my burning question. From what she said, Is there gonna be on ntcdinosaur Lee because she wants one? Well, I appreciate that He does. And I appreciate this is so important to you that you consider it a burning question myself. Course. Didn’t you clearly want to go back to Italy? I would look exactly, exactly right. Fund-raising present involved. L fund-raising was wonderful. Is there gonna be in it will be an NTC, which she called in 10. But we know everybody does that, but she means ntcdinosaur Is it gonna be one in Italy? 2020 2021. Uh, well, we have plenty of NTC contracts for 2021 22 contracting 23 right now and 24 later this year. All of those locations are in the continental U. S. And 10 you know, has a office in Portland. So we as staff, are always trying to petition Andrea unconference director to let us go to Hawaii for NBC. We haven’t done that quite yet. We haven’t. We haven’t won her over. You know, we do get a number of folks request stains, even if it isn’t the NTC as the NTC. But at least requesting that N 10 convene events in other parts of the world and that the US is super awesome. It’s great that people really trust and enjoy the events that we put on at this point. You know, we have kind of a two sided coin to this for the NTC. It just has not made sense for our mission and our Gail and how many staff we have to try and go outside the U. S. For our other programs where they’re delivered online. And that is definitely something that folks do actively participate in from all over the world. We have folks who gotten their professional certificates from us, for example from, um, Switzerland and Canada and the all over. So we know that those programs are easier for us to scale in that way. But the NTC hasn’t yet. However, I and other staff often support convenience elsewhere. Whether we’re on, you know, planning teams are we helped recruit speakers or we ourselves travel there to speak. So the end 10 the in tennis that we can contain as individuals gets to go to other places. But so far on the docket, there is not an empty seat. Aly and very sorry. Okay, I understand. This is this is why you’re a CEO. So so diplomatic and eloquent. If somebody asked me that question and I was in your job well, first of all, I would never get hired. I could never be a jump. But assuming I was in some hypothetical world, my answer would be No, no, no, no. Plan to go to Italy. We’re not. You know, it’s We normally have around 20 countries outside the U. S. Represented at the MTC, and we often prioritized some portion of our scholarships for international participants because we know that the cost burden for them to come from very far away is so much higher than folks within the continental U. S. So we we recognize and really appreciate that there is a really international community for intent. It isn’t just us spoke, of course. Um, yeah. Okay. So, so diplomatic. So you know that I’ve ever been called, Have Now you have now. Yeah, I I’m gonna yet save this recording, and I think I’m beautified. I know you pretty well. You know what? We’ll talk every week, but I think I know you fairly well. I think your diplomatic. Yeah, I’m Bonified. My opinion destroyed already. Um, so related to the end. 10 work, of course, is Ah, a big part of the intern. Work is local real time events that you have scaled throughout the country, and I think even aren’t you Also is there Aren’t there in 10 events in in London, too? Yeah, they’re in 10 events. In-kind the U S or international. Exactly. So, yeah, that’s our That’s our topic. Um, what do we, uh, What’s what’s your What are your thoughts on what you heard? And yeah, I mean things that I was talking about that Not that I don’t think she doesn’t agree. Just that you two didn’t get into details. And now I get the benefit of going of going. Second is the idea about localizing that content, you know, making it you’re talking about, like not just translating from English to another language, but really making sure it’s relevant to folks in that area and something that we’ve found a lot is you can’t You can’t say toe a whole network of local groups, right? Like tomorrow we’re talking about this topic because even the topic isn’t gonna be relevant in every single space. Right? Or the way folks talk about that topic may be very different. And I’m sure you experienced this in fundrasing work to write, like, some people are going to call a certain thing by a different term. And if you tell everybody this is the term we’re using, there’s going to be certain pockets of the community that just don’t even care because they don’t realize you’re talking about the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, terms, um, and just sensibilities. You know how you would go about fund-raising in one part of the country is very different than how you might do it in the Northeast, where people are often considered brash and too forward has to be more genteel in other parts of the country, like Midwest. I’m thinking probably south to I haven’t worked there, but yeah, absolutely. So, um yeah, that Andi, you’re right. We do. We sort of just touched on that, But the local sensibilities and that’s the advantage of local partnerships. I mean, you need to you need to rely on them as much as they’re relying on you for some support, right? And I think that kind of relationship and roll piece is what makes her brakes programs like this right. Organizations see themselves as having the role of making decisions, letting all of those folks on the ground know what the decision is and they’re there to implement it. That’s not motivating for them, but also it’s not going to be reflective of those local communities, right. So organizations already doing this type of work or trying to move towards this type of work really need to recognize that their role is meant to be the aggregator of what’s happening those groups and not the decider of what happened in those groups. Of course, that’s not to say, like all of your community groups can just run amok and do whatever they want Theirs, of course guidelines and hopefully lots of shared values and principles and purpose to why these groups are meeting and really focusing on that shared purpose will make sure the topics they bring up for what they want to d’oh with their group kind of stays in the right realm. But it then gets to be in their control and as the organization you’re there to aggregate it lifted back-up make sure it’s profiled, and that even goes, as far as you know, talking about tools. And I would love to hear your take. I know you were talking a little bit with them about Facebook live. I also have seen far fewer Facebook live. Um, invite your organizations using that, Um, so we can talk about that in a second, but just along the same lines as an organization, it’s not gonna work. If you tell everything, will group. You have to use the book live for your event because there’s gonna be groups that maybe are really small and only have a few people, and none of them know how to do that. And it’s better that that group is meeting than that group is trying to spend their time figuring out how to broadcast their meetings. Right? So not saying every single person, regardless of your location and contacts and topic, needs to use Facebook lives. But, hey, if you want to and you are able to stream, here are a few different tools. You know, you mentioned Zoom, for example, something that we do it intended. We say you get to use and 10 zoom account right like you don’t even need to try and pay for it or figure it out. We will just let you log in and host your event, right? So making it accessible and then folks can choose Oh, for us. Like we do know how to use Zoom. We know how this works. We’re going to do it. And another group could use Facebook live. Another group doesn’t have to use anything, you know, And recognizing that that means as the organization, you’re not going to get to see the event on dhe. They not every single group on your Web site is gonna have a little video link, and that has to be okay, right? There has to be, um, expectation that not every single group is gonna look exactly the same. It’s gonna have all the same content gonna have all of the same outlets and that that doesn’t mean the program isn’t successful, right? No, it’s not very hard because we’re used to having, like, a very perfect spreadsheet that says, like, Yes, yes, yes. All these groups did this, right? So having all the groups have different way they operate, makes it harder to evaluate. And that’s our problem is the organization. It’s not the program’s problem. Yeah, Yeah. Excellent. Okay. You raised a couple things. Uh, we’re gonna that we’re about to take a break. But I see an analogy with this in years ago when we used to talk about should should the community allow public Facebook comments, you know, are in any of the public networks I see in an analog to that. And then also, I want to talk some more about what kind of support a lot of the larger organization can offer. Thio local whatever they’re called. Chapters, affiliates groups, however, but we got to take this. Take this break, all right? It’s our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories and build support for your work. You can count on them. This is what they do. Media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them a turn hyphen to dot ceo. I’ve got butt loads more time with Amy Sample Ward. So yes. So I see. I see this analogy to I guess it was eight years ago or something? Whatever. Seven years ago, we’re talking about public comments. What if people say things that we don’t like? Um, you know, I’ve seen analogy out. There will be things we don’t like all day long, but the fear that you know, the fear going into this that it would be it would be anarchy. And, well, you know, uh, we won’t be ableto moderator. Should we Should we delete, you know, et cetera. So I sort of seeing an analogy to that. Those conversations we used to have back and I guess the dark days of social, the social networks. Well, you know, this might TF some of the conversation you want to have about resource ing, but I think the the biggest investment that organizations need to make in a program like this, where you’re gonna have distributed community groups of some sort, running some type of programming that you’re not present for is to invest in whoever those organizers are gonna be. The more they feel like an extension of the organization and actual leaders of this program, the more they’re going to feel comfortable and confident managing those types of reputational risk in person. on your behalf, right? If they feel like they’re just here to implement something and you know the organization sent them this saying that says Okay, go to here. Here’s the contact at the venue. We’ve already picked the venue. You didn’t even get to pick that, you know, And they’re showing up. Well, they’re not really filled with a bunch of responsibilities, right? So they’re not going to take it upon themselves to say, Hey like that we’re not having that conversation here. Or that’s not feedback that we’re having in this room, you know, whatever. But if you are really invested in them and building them up as the ambassadors and leaders of this program, they will be able to kind of carry that forward for you in person. And that’s the best safeguard you could build empowerment, empowerment you want. You want to empower your local leaders like and, as I was saying earlier, relying on them to but empowering them what, what some other kind of support. I mean, you mentioned a platform support. That’s that’s valuable, although, like you said, some groups might just want to meet. Maybe they only want to meet in real life. Maybe they’re tired of whatever they do or, you know, I mean, I think it’s also a good recognition that not all events format are great for streaming my right. Ah, an event that, you know, maybe in the summer, instead of having a speaker of the event. It’s a networking social. Nobody wants to be on video, just watching a bunch of people who were having to write. Recognizing that one piece of support we often find ourselves providing to Organizer’s is help this kind of mixing things up and having different formats and actually knowing, Ah, great deal about how you just put on events, right? So that we are a resource for them. Any time where they say, Okay, we don’t have a speaker lined up. Should we just cancel anything you don’t have to cancel? There’s lots of different event for months, but don’t have a featured speaker here, Like, you know, let’s open the kind of metaphorical binder and go through it together, right? So, being experts internally again, not so that you are prescribing, requiring the way that organizers do there that you are then, like the Event Planner Dictionary. For them, it’s super, super helpful and probably the number one thing that organizers in our programs like that call on us for all the time. The very first thing I thought of when you and Emma started talking with something that you and I have talked about a number of times, including, you know, insert. However many years ago, we first started doing these segments and that the if an organization is already taking the time to build up a program, why not build those resource is into tool kits and templates so that organizers don’t even have to bother emailing or calling you to ask for that help. Right? There’s a tool kit that says, Here are three event formats that don’t have a speaker, right? And they could just be like, Oh, phew! Okay, let’s choose one of these, you know, for next month. Since we don’t have a speaker. Whatever building up ready to use resource is is I mean, I could never recommend it enough. You’re already doing that work. You probably already built the template. You just keep it on your computer instead of putting it somewhere where all the organizer’s can access. Okay. Excellent. Yeah, right. the work is done. Just share it way, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we’ve talked about that in terms of identity. And, um what else? What else should be what? It zoho obvious that I can’t think of them. I don’t do this, but what else should be shared like that? Like like meeting temple? Well, yeah, that’s definitely like event formats and that kind of thing. Honestly, the things that we have, especially new Organizer’s folks who are just coming in into that role, but often times in a new city, right? Not that they’re new to that city, but it’s a new city for the program or our new location for the program. The things that they really really benefit from our templates for e mails because that’s where they get to start learning the tone and the personality of the program, right? They’re not expected to know that off the bat and be ableto, you know, send emails out to the local list and everything without just on their own, already knowing that giving them templates like, Hey, here’s the first message that you could send out that says, Hey, we’re starting a group and we want to do a survey of what folks want locally. Amglobal latto. Or here’s a email template for when you have an event scheduled in your, you know, sending it out to put on people calendars. And over time they’ll stop needing those things, but really just definitely something you already have. Right now we have every man we’ve ever sent, so just pull out some of those example. Emails kind of make them generic, right? Like in all caps, City name or whatever. But that’s a huge reverse that folks really have taken a man’s job in our program because it just saved them a lot of stress thinking they’re going to say the wrong thing on Dhe. We interpret that is them really caring right and wanting to make sure that they’re representing and 10 the best they can. And so we want to take that pressure off them and to say, Here are templates and it’s okay to use the gifts and, you know, do what you want to do, have fun with the group because that’s really how we want our kind of brand to be extended, and that takes a lot of pressure off. So basic emails events format and then things like, How do you find a venue and how do you get a local sponsor? Because oftentimes, at least in our experience and our programs, the folks who become organizers are there because they really love the people in the content of the meetings, not because they’re very experienced or even enjoy, like the hustle around town of like High. Will you give us $100 high? Will you donate some pizza? Hi. Can we meet in your office? You know, that’s not the fun part of organizing. And so tips and resource sheets that say, You know, many cities have these types of venues Coworking faces library e-giving them kind of ah, starter kit of where to look for reverses and venues is also really helpful. And we’ve found that’s one of the tools that folks organizer’s like to contribute back thio and add their ideas. So then the next time an organizer is looking at it also has ideas from from other organized. All right, all right. We met at the local museum, and it was fabulous, and they even included a brief tour of the collection and yeah, yeah, Okay. Yeah, learning from each other. Of course. Wonderful. Um, you mentioned Facebook live vs Zoom. And you wanted a want to flush that out a little more, I think. Yeah, I was just curious what you have, what? Your experience that has been. I know that you know that you did some tests with Facebook live? Yeah, it’s difficult. Yeah, I think the 1st 1 failed. Technically, technically. And I have an excellent social manager, Susan Chavez, who are happy to shout out. But there was some button radio, you know, some radio button wasn’t selected right or something. And the thing failed. Um, yeah. And and she knows what she’s doing. No, but yeah, she missed something in the back end. Set up Facebook. So I’m not not through with Facebook. Yeah, And then when we did do it, we did do a live segment. Um, it got some attention. It didn’t didn’t get as much as I would have liked, but some of that may be our own fault in, uh, doing sort of last. Well, maybe not last minute, Like the hour, but not allowing ourselves enough promotion time. That’s what I mean. And just and from the technical side. I much prefer Zoom. The damn thing is just so much easier. There aren’t a whole right. There isn’t a dozen radio buttons you have to configure correctly to get a get a live stream going. It’s all in the background. You pick a few things in settings and very few, and you could be up and running. And it has the auto invitation e mails. And I’m very impressed with Zoom. And you must be due because you said you offer it, use it and you offer it to local local groups for for nothing. Yeah, we’ve been using them. I mean, we used hang out. Um, Skype. We use lots of different things for lots of different purposes, you know? But, um, we just offer you some validation. We have the same experience with Facebook live. I think we tried it two or three times and basically every time failed. One of the time I stopped stopped in the middle of the video and we had to, like, log back in again even though it was broadcasting. So, you know, like maybe five people watched it. But riel reflection there is just like we were saying before. Really choosing the tool based on what you’re doing into the people are and sound like them is working for you. You know, for us we always feel like, you know, are we being so like dodgy by having these kind of boring community calls where we expect people to, like go to our website and say they’re coming and get a link and, you know, have it be kind of like a traditional webinar experience. But when we’ve done things like, you know, Facebook live and whatever else and they’ve been well promoted, there’s like five people there, but for our community calls where we’re doing them in our kind of traditional way of sending emails out and people go to the website and register that they want to come and log in at that very specific time. There’s, like 60 70 people on, so why I feel bad that that’s not working right and why try and go use some shiny Facebook tool that clearly doesn’t work. It’s not very sure it’s very tarnished by now. And if N. 10 which formerly had the word technology in its in its name, can’t figure this out and has a live stream stopping in the middle because of it. I think that that speaks a lot. And I also have seen I’ve been I’ve been invited recently to a lot more zoom events or just meetings just just one on one meetings or or three person meetings on Zoom. Then I have Facebook life. We just have. We have, like, a minute or so left before we have to end already. Um, what are the other recommended tools? Can you can you just take off a couple? Mmm, Other tools. You know something that we don’t know how much we’ve really talked about it, cause it’s not necessarily a social media tool, but it is something that we see the organizer’s really, really relying on. And that’s can va, you know, can yeah, can before for art. Yes, So, like a really lightweight version of photo shop. And what super helpful about it that also has social media templates. So, like these are the dimensions for a Facebook header image that you know all of those pieces. So for Organizer’s, it’s a super easy tool to use, you know, to like change up their promotional materials and make you know images to attach to their tweets to promote an event and that kind of thing. Can you Okay, I give you 30 seconds. Can you take off one more? One more. Quick. Good. Valuable resource. Mmm Mmm mmm. Oh, my gosh. Not under pressure. Uh, got it all graceful under pressure. You know, I think the other thing I was gonna add it’s not a technical tool, but is just a reminder is that you don’t need thio. Put all of the advice into practice because you have a very formalized, already launched program. It may just be that you wanna host across your city a bunch of house parties, right? All of these same kind of pieces of advice and tools and suggestions apply to that same contact, So don’t feel like the whole conversation was only for big international program. This is for anybody that’s trying to decentralize. You’re content in your work. Awesome. That’s a very, very apt ending. Thank you so much. Amy. Sample Ward Amy, Sample word dot or ge And at Amy Rs Ward. Always a pleasure. Thanks so much for sharing, Amy. Yeah, Thanks, Tony. Uh, my pleasure to so long. Next week, Jean Takagi will be with me for the hour on recruiting your board members. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com But cook a Mountain software Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits 20 dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO A creative producers. Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows social Media is by Serbs and Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great What you’re listening to the Talking Alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned potential Live life your way on talk radio dot N Y c aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti, non-profit Radio Fridays 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant, Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s 12 noon on talk radio dot You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting 24 hours a day. Do you love? Or are you intrigued about New York City and its neighborhoods? I’m Jeff Goodman, host of Rediscovering New York Weekly showed that showcases New York’s history, and it’s extraordinary neighborhoods. Every Tuesday live at 7 p.m. We focus on a particular neighborhood and explore its history, its vibe, it’s feel and its energy tune and live every Tuesday at 7 p.m. On talk radio dahna you’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network.

Nonprofit Radio 450th Show Recap

Last week was Nonprofit Radio’s 450th show. Here’s my highlight video including co-host Claire Meyerhoff from the PG Agency and live music from Scott Stein, singing our theme music, “Cheap Red Wine.” Also calls from Gene Takagi, our longest-running contributor, from NEO Law Group; Yigit Uctum from returning sponsor Wegner CPAs; and Peter Panepento at new sponsor Turn Two Communications. And a welcome to new sponsor Cougar Mountain Software.

Best part is the heartfelt cameo from Tony Martignetti, Sr., with commentary on his son.