Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Notice. I expertly wished you happy Saint Patrick’s Day last week when it was Saint Patrick’s Day, so prompt, so timely, right there, so no need to apologize this week for wishing you happy Saint Patrick’s Day week, a week late. We’re right on time here on nonprofit Radio. And I’m glad you’re with us. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of cataphagia. If I had to repeat the words, you missed this week’s show. Pretty sad when the, the bar is just set at. Being on time with a happiness wish. That’s, that’s, that’s a sad state. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to introduce this week’s show. Hey Tony, this week it’s join us at 25 NTC. The 2025 nonprofit technology conference is next month in Baltimore. Non-profit radio will be there. You still have time to join in person or virtual. N10 CEO and our technology contributor, Amy Stammple Ward reveals all the learning and fun you can expect. Then Great value in sustainable giving. Dave Raley is the author of the book The Rise of Sustainable Giving. Our subscription economy has spawned a change in donor preferences and great growth in recurring donations. Dave shares his expertise on incentives, creating a thriving sustainer program, naming, converting donors to sustainers, what the future looks like, and more. He’s the founder of Imago Consulting. On Tony’s take 2. Tales from the gym. If they can do it, we all can. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, Donorbox.org. Here is. Join us at 25 NTC. I’m ready to record with Amy Sample Ward. They are the CEO of N10. Uh, they’re also, of course, our nonprofit radio technology contributor, but today it’s the CEO of N10 role that we are here to talk about because we’re talking about 25 NTC, the 2025 nonprofit Technology Conference. It is coming up April 16, 1718 in Baltimore, Maryland. Let’s talk 25. Amy, can’t wait to hugs, hugs. Uh, and, you know, I, I know that most of your time at the NTC you’re recording for nonprofit radio, but what’s nice about it is you’re not in like a recording studio. And so I can always walk by and just listen to who. You’re talking to and um I always see other people standing there listening, um, or taking photos, you know. Yeah, I love, I love the visibility. Yes, we’re, we’re gonna be, we’re in the hub in the commons, which is where all the meals are, all the all the uh keynote sessions, all the general sessions are right there, everything. What else? What else? The receptions, receptions, yes. Uh, so I, I feel like, you know, we’re just, by the time this is airing, we’re just gonna be 3 weeks out. So we probably should focus on the online. Version of uh you know, people register for the in-person conference. Even in person, like they will walk up on day 10, you get walk-ups every year. Oh, all right. Well, all right, so then let’s keep that open. All right, yeah, you you can still register to join us in Baltimore. Of course there is an online only virtual side of the conference that you can also register for and never leave your home or your office or wherever you are. That’s right. There’s, there’s a version for uh each in person and online, and if you need to switch, you can go, this is all on the website, there’s a little spot for switching from virtual to in-person and vice versa. And if you register for in person and end up not coming or you came and you felt like there was too many sessions to choose from, or you could only come for 1.5 days of the, of the 3, you have access to all of the online content, just like somebody who registered for only online. It’s all So if you register for Baltimore, you’re basically registering for both, essentially, because you can access all content. Right, for next, for the following 3 months, I think you can get access to all the, all the, uh, virtual sessions because there are a number of virtual only sessions, but as, as you just said, OK, you get access to both really if you, if you, OK, so all right, so let’s keep up the possibility then. so, you know, where should we show up if we’re, uh, if we’re walking in. Uh, of course, all the info is at.org naturally. But you know, just where, where are we in Baltimore? Where are we going? We’re at the Baltimore Convention Center right by the harbor, and I don’t believe that there’s another event happening in the convention center, um, but at least the area we’re in is very clearly just us. You can walk right through the sky bridge from the Hilton or walk from the Sheraton. They’re connected to the building, um, and Of course, as always, there are lots of other activities that happen that aren’t in the convention center, but all the sessions, all of the main conference stuff will all be in the convention center and We’re trying something that we’ve never done before, um, but because of the physical proximity to the stadium, we, with thanks to the financial support of three of our sponsors, have bought out two sections in the stadium for attendees that want to, to all go over to the Baltimore Orioles game together, uh, Wednesday evening. So, like, knock on wood for Memorable weather, whatever. I don’t want to just say good because it seems like it’d be good, you know, jinx, but um and this is free. This is free. Yeah, you got sponsors covering hundreds of tickets for, yeah, yeah, that’s outstanding. Baltimore Orioles game. OK, that’s that’s the football team. Noball. Oh they play baseball? All right. Well, baseball, no, that’s good. Baball is good. That’s right. That’s right. OK. um. Oh, I thought you were joking, but you were being serious. No, I was joking. OK, OK, good. OK, good. I was like, oh gosh. Yeah, so it’ll it’ll be fun and I think that. Somebody from our group, I mean, it doesn’t need to be me. So maybe, maybe we can convince the sponsors to do it. Even goes down on the field and says, Hey, everybody from the conference is here, and we all get to wave. So cool. I thought you were gonna say you’re gonna sing the anthem. Oh my gosh, no, they would pay me not to do it. All right. Um, so let’s remind folks that NTC. The nonprofit technology conference is not only for technologists. We, we say this year after year, but we have new listeners each year and maybe somebody didn’t listen to last year’s NTC TS TS show. Let let’s make this very, very clear. It’s not only for technologists. Well, it’s, it’s such a complicated thing because on one hand, I would say it’s 2025. We are all using technology to do our job. And so in some ways, we’re all technologists, but This is not a conference that was founded 25 years ago or still today operated with the assumption that everyone that is making decisions about technology or using technology or wants to know, like the latest developments of technology, see themselves as The IT director or or has technology in their job title, right? And so the topics, I mean, there’s, I think 162 with the latest count or whatever in the spreadsheet, you know, of of sessions, but there’s so many opportunities in sessions and out to talk about all the other implications beyond any technology system, you know, it’s not necessarily. Just about which CRM which database are you using? It’s why, why do you even have that data in your database? Where did it come from? Do you know when you could get rid of it? Do you have a retention policy? You know, it’s all these other pieces that impact, yes, our technology systems but also impact our work and how we can do that work and technology is just in in the mix of it all. There are multiple tracks that that are not that involve technology naturally that overlap but fundraising, there’s a fundraising track, there’s a diversity, equity accessibility track, um, there’s a leadership track, you know, there’s, so there’s lots of different subjects across these 160 some uh sessions, and some of them will be. Uh, I’ll be talking to the speakers from some of them, a subset of them, for future episodes of nonprofit radio. Of course, that’s what I’ll, will be on the hub, uh, will be in the hub at the Commons recording. Um. I love the, you know, if you do go, if you go in person, I had to, you know, I’m looking at the lunch, it’s incredible. We had to, I think we talk about the food every year, but I got, I got, I’m reading now. I’m reading from the lunch description for each of the three days, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. All meals at the NTC. Include a range of options for gluten free, vegan, vegetarian, low carb, low salt and low sugar dietary needs. Menus avoid or label the inclusion of peanuts, tree nuts, shellfish, eggs, cow’s milk, soybeans, sesame and wheat. Halal, kosher and celiac meals are available on request, and if you need a space away from the cacophony, look for signs for the quiet tables. It’s such a thoughtful damn conference. I mean, this is just around the food, but that’s a microcosm of the thoughtfulness around NTC. Well this is a quite a core value of, of NTC and N10. Tell us how you, you think about what people need. At a conference and and how you execute on that. Well, maybe I could start with the food that feels um especially relevant, what you don’t know, or externally doesn’t know. Um, we have, um, I will say an animal rights activist organization, uh, that you can anticipate who they are in the community, glad they’re in the community, glad they come to the conference, learn from sessions, you know, presented sessions, etc. Who Has, um, for a number of years, tried a few different campaign strategies to have the conference be entirely vegan. I am vegan. I have been since I was still a teenager, you know, I I don’t disagree necessarily, but as an insight, and I’m glad that there are conferences that are able to be all vegan, but our community has Members in it who have allergies that make uh all vegan, you know, diet at a conference where it’s just all set out on the table, not something they could eat at. Um, and we have folks with disabilities who, even if they don’t have an allergy, they have food related needs that allow them to be comfortable and manage their day without having to go back to their hotel room, right, to eat, um. There are a lot of different things that come across someone’s decision making mind when they’re standing at the beginning of that like buffet table, right? And some of them are dietary, medical, health related, some of them are emotional, some of them are social, right? Like, what if you don’t recognize any food on that table? None of this food is from a, a shared culture that you have. We have people from 16 different countries coming to the conference, right? You might not be allergic to any of them, but if you don’t know what any of them are, and you’re trying to have professional conversations and you’re really trying to get along with this person that you just met in a session, right? And maybe you wanna work for them, and now you’re faced with a bunch of food that you don’t know what it is. That’s very difficult, right? And so we think about Accessibility in a lot of different ways at the conference, and what are the pieces that we can put in place that make it so people are comfortable, they have some things that they can recognize and anticipate throughout the day. It’s why we have coffee and tea at all different hours because Again, culturally or from the time zone that you’re in, right? You, this might be when you want coffee. Uh, so we really wanna think about how do folks move through this space without having To use up all of their decision making or all of their thinking for the day on where do I need to go? Is there gonna be food there? Can I get more water? What do I need to do? Like, we want all of that to be in place so that people are using up their brains saying, wow, what should I think about AI? Oh, wow, what should I learn about this new data standard? What, right? We want that to be where people can spend their thinking and not on Am I gonna be able to eat here, you know? It’s all very thoughtfully done. You, you, you, you call it accessibility and ease, uh, and I, I just caption it as thoughtful, thoughtful. A lot of thought goes into, uh, hosting over 2000 people, right? How many, how many do you think we’ll have. Well, I mean, unfortunately, we have in person, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it’s so similar to 2020 in which, um, that was the year that it was meant to be in Baltimore previously. Um and with the start, uh, it was scheduled for March 23rd through 25th, 2020. So that was right when We were the first event that was canceled with the governor’s, you know, declaration that events are. I remember, I remember tearful. Yeah, because we made the choice to cancel before the governor, before any governor had stopped events, and so we had to make the choice to cancel, knowing that it would mean we’d close the organization because we’d have to pay all the fines. And thankfully, our lawyer found that the cancellation to the convention center, uh, has to be in writing, and we, we never bothered to tell them we weren’t coming because that felt self-evident, and we had spent a week telling the community and the governor said, hey, there’s no events, and we’re like, what we’re, we don’t have to pay. I mean we still have to pay some, but We didn’t have to close as an organization, right, and pay every dollar we had, um, but now with all of these just erratic and harmful changes that the administration is unleashing basically every day. We’re having, you know, we’re hearing from folks asking for a scholarship. They just lost 75% of their funding because of what’s happened, you know, they still want to come to the conference. They, they know that that’s where they can connect with people and get resources and, and learn. But they are firing staff, they, they have no funds. So we’re giving scholarships out to, you know, anybody who’s writing to us um in those situations, and we have continued the regular rate for anyone within about 100 miles of Baltimore that is maybe, you know, a a a local in that way to try and keep um it accessible. To folks who are really having those impacts. Um, so we’ve seen a lot of, not a lot, but a number of folks in February need to move to virtual because they Their organization no longer has funding, you know, um, which is Difficult and just outrageous that we’re in this place where organizations, you know, are somehow the target of I don’t know. I, I, I don’t even know how to frame what the situation is. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah, so that is gonna impact how many folks are there. I mean, I’m sure they’ll still be, um, you know, 2000. Regis registrants, it’s just by the time we get to April, what will be the mix of a couple 100 online, you know, people in person, who, who, who can still physically come, you know? Um, and unfortunately, we’re having folks from a few of the non-US countries say, hey, I’ve been advised not to come to the US. So I’m not going to travel there anymore, and I’ll just be a virtual attendee. Which is also infuriating because this is a global community and I Don’t like that we would have, I mean, we’re just talking about accessibility, right? And, and that all the elements that we try to control so that we can create a, a place where folks really can be together and share their ideas and build power and, and make relationships that are beyond any of these, you know, oh, you work in a different organization. Who cares? We can still share our ideas. We can still figure this out together, right? And To have folks Feel unsafe is is. Not what we want, you know, and obviously not in our control, not in our, not our doing, but it still on a bigger scale to have folks feel unsafe entering the United States. Right. It infuriating. All right, let’s not end on an infuriating note, although, uh the the realism is uh realism and not ignoring. I feel like, I feel like too many. Too many of our community’s content creators are ignoring the reality that it’s besieging us every single day. Yeah, it is every day. I, I, so, you know, reality is essential. I, we’re living it. So, well, that’s a great pivot. We could end on something uh positive, which is the three keynotes that are coming because Alyssa Richardson. Her work is just on what you’re talking about. How do communities use the technology they have access to social media, etc. to shine a light on what is really happening in their community, to have some access to power through truth and information. Um, she has written books, she’s a professor, she has a, you know, whole lab, um, at UCLA or USC, um, and it’s just really An incredible person, so she’s One of the keynotes, just as you were just saying, why are we not talking about this, um, and Doctor Ashley Xu, who is the author of Against Techno Abelism and you know, kind of trying to counter this idea that technology is here to cure us and make us perfect because we don’t need to, you know, what what if we get rid of disabilities, which is such a Elitist ablest idea like this disabilities are in so many people in so many different ways, and that’s not that something’s wrong with them, you know, um, technology isn’t some cure or solution or path to perfection, right? That’s no, no, no, that’s so antithetical to, to what, at least in the community we’re talking about with technology. So I’m excited for her talk, um. But we also have Michael Running Wolf, who’s worked on indigenous language projects through AI. So yes, it’s probably unavoidable to talk about AI, but can we talk about it rooted in absolutely using it in ways that help us as the users, as communities who didn’t get to necessarily have access. To build open AI or anything else, right? So what, what do we, what, what can we learn um from Michael’s projects really rooting those technologies in um communities most impacted. All right, 3 outstanding. Keynote speakers, you’ll enjoy one each morning. Right after the breakfast. Yeah, or you can even, you know, if you’re a slow eater like me, save your breakfast and eat it while they’re talking, yeah, and savor your breakfast because it’s all in the same place. It’s all ins and of course the virtual attendees are are part of that part of the the keynotes as well, and they’ll be having breakfast, you know, on their own, just your camera will be off while you’re eating your Cheerios. Yeah, exactly. All right. Uh, so April 16 to 18, uh, Baltimore Convention Center, all the info is at n10.org. It’s right up the top of the website. You can’t possibly miss it. Join us in person, come see, come see nonprofit Radio at the Commons in the hub. We’ll have our studio set up or join uh 25 NTC virtually, but join. It’s, it’s worth it. It’s, it’s, it’s a smart savvy conference. That’s why this is the. 11th NTC that I’m bringing nonprofit radio to because the speakers are savvy and smart and they benefit all of us and as Amy, as Amy said, we all work with technology in our jobs and so the nonprofit technology conference is for you. Be with us. Thank you, Amy. Yeah, see you there. I’ll see you in a couple of weeks. Sounds great. All right, bye. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money, but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s DonorBox, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers just like you, a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges. Helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs. Helping you, help others. Visit donorbox.org to learn more. Now it’s time for. Great value in sustainable giving. It’s a pleasure to welcome Dave Raley to nonprofit Radio. He’s the founder of Imago Consulting, an advisory firm that helps organizations create growth through innovation. He’s the author of the book The Rise of Sustainable Giving How the Subscription Economy Is Transforming Recurring Giving and what nonprofits can do to benefit. That’s what brings him to the show. You’ll find the book at sustainablegiving.org. You’ll find Dave Raley on LinkedIn. Dave, welcome to nonprofit Radio. So good to be here, Tony, and good to actually be, as we were saying offline on the other side of the mic. I’ve appreciated listening to the show and glad to be on it. Thank you very much. Thanks for being a listener. Congratulations on the brand new book. Oh, thank you, thank you, it’s been uh. Quite the journey, 3 years, um, 438 hours of writing enumerate the stats in the book. I, I have a friend who, um, because I I I’ve worked a lot with uh charities through the sort of the marketing agency space, Tony, and so I had a friend comment like, Dave, you don’t need to track your time. You do know that, right? And I thought, I don’t know, I just like tracking things, so I don’t want to track my steps every day, but I will track the number of hours I poured into this. This, uh, this, uh, passion project for sure. So as you were writing over those 4, you were you were keeping a log. I was keeping a log and thinking I don’t know if this thing’s ever going to. To be done candidly, I think the 1st 3 years, probably the 1st 2 years were like, OK, 1 ft in front of the other, and, uh, such a, such a huge effort, um, but I’m really proud of the book, uh, the early reception, and just I’m really hopeful that it makes a significant difference in our sector. It has that potential, absolutely. Um, if I may, I’d like to read from, uh, the foreword to, to sort of frame us a little bit, uh, your, your forward is by Gabe Cooper, CEO of Virtuous who’s been a guest on uh nonprofit radio also. The reality is that nonprofits are fundraising in a world that no longer exists. The total number of donors giving to nonprofits has consistently decreased over the past decade. Donors are more distracted than ever, and they receive a constant stream of ads and personalized messages from their favorite brands. Most donors still desire to make an impact in the world, but it’s become infinitely harder for nonprofits to break through the noise. That’s, uh, that’s as far as I got on the book. That’s page uh XXII. I stopped. I didn’t even to the pages. That was great. I didn’t even get into the Arabic numbers, so I, I stopped at XXII. Um, now, so. Uh, it’s getting hard to get through the noise. We’re, we’re fundraising in old methods. That was a little frame up. Why don’t you please give us, uh, your take on, on Gabe’s wisdom there. Yeah, you know, I, one of the meta sort of topics that I’m really passionate about is what does sustainable innovation look like? Uh, the book is certainly about sustainable giving and recurring giving in light of how, um, shifts have changed, and we’ll talk about that shortly, but You know, to respond to the way Gabe positioned that, number one, we are absolutely in the middle of a generosity crisis, um, and, uh, that is in North America, that the number of Americans that are giving to charity today is less than, uh, last year and is less than the year prior. Now, as those of us in this industry know, often the amount of dollars that are being given to to philanthropy, um, by individuals is increasing, but that’s thanks to largely mega, uh, you know, billionaire donors, which go for it. I would love them taking their, their philanthropic giving as well, but I do think there’s something about how do we teach the next generation generosity and what does that look like? Um, but to Gabe’s point about models, um, one of the things I always, uh, say is that it’s really important not to confuse your organization’s mission with your model. So your mission is about what your organization, your cause is, uh, is trying to change in the world. Your model is how you do that, right? Including how do you fund doing that. And so when I think about sustainable innovation, I think every organization, every institution, Is really somewhere on that organizational life cycle curve, you know, that S curve you see in like business books, you know, where it’s like infancy, early growth, mid-growth, slowing plateauing and decline, right? Every organization goes through that, and that’s just kind of a like the, you know, fourth law of thermodynamics for organizational health is that those models do age out. And so for me, um, the reason innovation is so important is because it helps us create new S curves, new models to effectively accomplish the mission that our organizations are called to, so. Innovation is critical, uh, models do shift over time, and one of the models that I’ve seen shift, uh, tremendously over the last decade is what’s been happening in the space of recurring giving, namely for the charities that have historically been left behind, uh, Tony, 3 quarters of charities, um. have historically not been able to really tap into strong, growing, resilient giving, you know, they’re not the local public television or public radio station or museum or, um, you know, 1 to 1 sponsorship type of organization. They’ve done pretty well over the last 100 years, uh, with Rick Gibbing, but it’s really the, the food bank, the rescue mission, the relief and development agency. The, uh, the think tank that hasn’t been able to really build strong growing resilient, recurring giving until really the subscription economy and the rises of subscription economy has essentially led to changes in how we consume. You know, the average American today, Tony, has, uh, more than 12 subscriptions, maybe to their chagrin, right, I know 96% of us I think have more than one. And yeah, I was 9. 9.8%. I have at least one subscription, adults, um, and what’s the number you just cited a number of subscriptions. Oh my gosh. All right. Um, before we get into the sustainable, let’s let’s define the subscription. I mean, Yeah, no, the Amazon Prime and Netflix are ubiquitous, but let’s just, let’s just make sure we’re all starting at the same place. What, what’s your sense of the subscription economy? Yeah, and you know, you, you hit it on the head. I think everyone kind of intuitively knows what it is today. Um, 10 years ago when I first started talking about this in the industry, Tony, I had to explain that, you know, what do you mean? You know, subscription. I was like, well, have you heard of Netflix? Oh yeah, OK, I get it. But today it’s really the rise of recurring ongoing, um, transactions in every area of our life, in our business lives, you know, we’re on Zoom right now. I don’t know about you, but I have to pay for the Zoom subscription. Um, you know, I listened to Spotify this morning while I was writing my latest wave report, the weekly column that I write on innovation, that’s a subscription. I had to change the batteries, by the way, in my Arlo camera, um, uh, some people use Ring. Uh, these, these doorbell cameras. Yes, right, you have a subscription, yeah, you make a point. You have a subscription to your doorbellion to your door. If you would have told me 10 years ago that you’re going to be subscribed to the doorbell company, I would have said, uh, no thanks, that’s not great. And yet I gladly spend, you know, whatever $15 a month to know when an Amazon package gets dropped off. One that that strikes me is that we used to pay. One time you used to buy a subcri you used to buy the product Windows. Windows you used to buy the, the operating system and every couple of years there was a new operating system and you have to spend $200 or $300 to, uh, now and, and other things similar but you now have a subscription to Windows 365. It’s called 365 and, and that’s the way you now access the Windows operating system. I don’t know, just, I don’t know, 78 years ago it wasn’t that way. Yeah, well, and I don’t know about you, but or your listeners, but I went uh kicking and screaming, you know, you’re like, no, I wanna own my software. I wanna own my music. Until you start to realize, oh yeah, how long did it take me to go from Windows, whatever, 95 to it was XP first and then 95. It’s like you would, you would end up with this like grossly out of date software because you’re too, I don’t know they meet you, but I was too cheap to, you know, get the next set of software to the point where it is so that ongoing value proposition, which by the way, is a key lesson for fundraising. Your proposition, yeah, but you have to, you have to like the reason I I give money to Spotify every month is not because I’m renting music from the music company. It’s because there is an ongoing each month I’m receiving novel value, and that is what’s uh helping me continue to stay in that subscription. And so I think software, I now look at it as a gift, right? I started uh started my company. And Mago just uh just under 3 years ago and I was so grateful that I have to spend several $1000 in, you know, in software costs. I knew I could I could subscribe to Adobe Creative Cloud, to Google Workspace, to Zoom, and get a lot of value and spread out that cost, um, but that their ongoing value is so powerful. Share some of the uh stats that you have about sustainable giving, why this is so important for nonprofits. Yeah, there’s, you know, there’s certainly some of the, um, the commonly used stats about the value of sustainable giving, which just to rattle through a few of those, average retention rates, 78 to 86%, that’s versus a multi-year, you know, single gift owner we call them. That typically they’ll retain about 42%, so, you know, almost double or in some cases literally double the the uh the the retention rate, significantly high, higher long term value, 5 to 7 times the long-term value. They’re 6 times more likely to leave an organization in their estate, um, or legacy plan, uh, if they’re a recurring donor. I was just doing a seminar with a Group that does uh recurring or I’m sorry, does legacy giving, Tony, and they, um they just did a study of all of the organizations and all these state gifts they’ve monitored and the number one most predictable factor, um, after an after a donor had been on the file for 10 years, so. The first one was longevity, but the second was frequency. It was the frequency of giving and so recurring givers were the most likely um indicator that they would be a legacy giver. That’s outstanding. What can you shout the company name? Yeah, Canopy Resources, um, for Ministry. They’ve got two different brands. Oh sorry, no, C A N O. OK, OK, but don’t spell it right, the incredible value. And but there are some less known statistics. Neon, the folks over at Neon looked at over 200. They found the average charity from 2019 to 2024 grew recurring 127%. So this is not, um, you know, I’m a big believer in seeing, you know, what changes on the horizon and what waves, you know, are coming. This is, this is an opportunity that’s not something that’s just coming down the line. I’m not here saying, hey, I wrote a book, Tony, in 2 or 3 years, this is going to be a big deal. It’s like, no, no, no, it’s a big deal right now, and it’s been a big deal the last couple of years. But, and this is critical, my, I feel like part of my role in this sector is to help people to connect the dots that it’s a big deal now, but then what do I do about it? And so really the, the third part of the book is ultimately, well, the 2nd and 3 parts of the book are how to take advantage of the subscription economy and then how to build and grow a thriving recurring giving program. Also recurring donors, uh, you make this point, give 25% more than their, their recurring donation commitment. Just, just flush it out a little bit quickly. Yeah, the, you know, and, and I, I’ve had some, as I’ve been speaking about this at conferences, I have had occasional people come up to me and say, yeah, set it and forget it, right? And I’m like, no, that actually it turns out in the subscription world that doesn’t work either. But really your recurring donors are the most generous single gift donors, meaning the average recurring donor um on a file will give in addition to their annual recurring giving another about 25% in single, what we call single gifts, right? So it’s the year-end gift, it’s the emergency relief gift. And so when I work with organizations to map out their cultivation of recurring donors, I’m we’re always looking at what are you doing to give your recurring donors additional gift opportunities, um, how are you messaging that to them because just as much as some organizations might think, well, you know, we should just uh not send any uh additional asks to our recurring donors. No, the opportunity is really to. To cultivate them because they are, they’re the most bought into your cause. So when there is that disaster or that uh crisis situation or that year end, again, those major times of year, those donors are often the most responsive. So what we’re seeing is that That this uh subscription economy that’s ubiquitous as you described. Has led to a change in donor preferences on the charitable side so sort of the, the corporate side has taken this and accelerated it and, and it’s like we said now ubiquitous. People are expecting this on the and, and looking for it even on the, on the charitable side. So it, so it’s a, it’s a shifting donor preferences, would you talk about that in the book. Yeah, and it’s really about um a lot of these trends, um, start on the what I would call the consumer side, right, which is just it’s it’s it’s setting tones. I remember I I started in the industry in the early days of digital fundraising and um I remember when people were were worried about putting their. Credit card in online and I remember when Facebook came out and clients would say, hey, should we do fundraising on Facebook and I would say, no, it’s a good, it’s a good relational platform, you know, it’s a good way to connect with your alumni or whatever, um, because it wasn’t intel several years of in this case Facebook being around and people becoming used to basically their consumer lives and their social media lives intersecting. That’s when then. You know, in this case, I think it was the Haiti earthquake that was the real uh linchpin moment, um, in the late 2000s when Facebook and the Red Cross raised, I think it was $30 million overnight and it just, that changed the landscape. Of people being willing to give related to their social media presence. Well, if it weren’t for several years prior to that of people getting used to using their credit card online and all these other things, it wouldn’t have paved the way for generosity. And so I’m seeing the same thing, the subscription economy is not new. I don’t have to convince people that it exists when I speak now, but I do have to help them understand how that has really laid the groundwork for people’s philanthropic behavior changing. You call in the book subscription philanthropy. Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know if that’s your phrase. I had I had I’m crediting well, and the funny thing is, you know, and I don’t want people and I talk about subscription giving too. I want to be careful on the reason I didn’t use that in the title of the book, by the way, was I don’t want people to think I’m trying to, we’re trying to make philanthropy and generosity a consumeristic act. Now there is a value proposition and there’s a value exchange, and sometimes, by the way, there’s goods and services that even exchange hands. If I watch your public, you know, television station or I visit. The museum or I get the, you know, the free book resource, there could actually be some form of sort of good or service that exchanged, but what I’m trying to point out with subscription philanthropy is that really, um, there are some lessons we can learn from those subscription worlds and we can apply them to today. I remember when the streamlined purchasing uh um pages, I’m thinking of, you know, Amazon, one click buy, when, when those were emerging, they were influencing. Well, they were influencing what donors expected from an online transaction, and that influenced what nonprofits had to. Had to create that we had to make a, you know, more seamless online not a purchase but an online giving process because people expected that from the, from their commercial side. So this is, you know, it, and I think that’s terrific. I think there are lessons that can be translated, they learned from the commercial side to the charitable side, uh, that’s, that’s all to our benefit on the, on the charitable side. Totally agree, totally agree. So let’s talk about, you know, now we have to, you know, I always remind listeners, you know, you got to get the book because there’s only so much we can talk about in an hour. So you got to get the book at um at sustainablegiving.org. Of course, we all, uh, you can also get it through Barnes and Noble and Amazon, etc. um, but you know, give Dave’s landing page some hits because uh. He’s a metrics guy he’s tracking the metrics on the. You’ll you’ll end up with a copy of the book either way, but you may as well make, uh, make the gateway through, uh, sustainablegiving.org. So. Uh, we’re, we’re jumping a little ahead, but I, I do want to talk about some of the incentives. So now, you know, we’ve talked about sustainable philanthropy, how important sustainable giving is, how that’s created a subscription philanthropy, so that’s what I meant, subscription philanthropy model, um, some of the incentives if you wanna, if we wanna move into this. We, we, we don’t feel like we’re doing it well enough, the, uh, the way the Gabe Cooper quote, you know, suggests that we either not doing it, which is really unwise, um, well, you know what, let’s take a step back. Let’s go to, let’s go to the nonprofit that isn’t doing. Uh, isn’t doing sustain or giving. And we’ve already explained why, why it’s important. We’re not, we’re, we’re past the, the motivation step, but what should we think about, you know, like what should we bring, what do we need to bring to our vice president? What, what topics do I need to, as the vice president bring to the CEO or what issues, you know, what help me make the case, I suppose, for the nonprofit that may not be, uh, unwisely, unfortunately, but, uh, doing this type of giving. Well, the first thing I would say is you have a recurring giving program. Whether you call it something or you’ve actually spent any time on it, whether it’s any good. I have not met a nonprofit that does not have donors who have chosen to give on a recurring basis. The question is whether or not you’re taking advantage of that and whether or not you are creating growth. It actually again reminds me of the early days of digital, where I would, I would go and, uh, to a charity and I would say, hey, I think we can really help grow your, you know, your online giving. And they would say, oh, it’s already growing 20% a year. And I would be, and I would say, but how fast could it be growing because the reality is just with adoption, people are going to choose of their own volition. You know, in this, in the case of digital, to give online, in the case of subscription giving to give on a recurring basis. So first thing I would say is you have recurring giving um going on in your organization and so it’s about understanding what is that today and then what could it be in the future. I am a huge believer in the potential and, and really painting the picture for that. So I always like to ask people, you know, how many, how much, how many donors do you have today? How much are they giving on a recurring basis, because Nobody’s starting from zero, and that’s actually the good news. So that’s the first thing I would do, um, uh, certainly give them a copy of the book, that’s apparently, uh, work, uh, the book’s only been out, Tony, but, uh, just for a month as we record this, but it’s been really powerful when you have that kind of like I could try to convince you of something or I could let this third party podcast episode or you know or actual book, um, uh, you know, do some convincing for me, um, but. I think it’s really just recognizing that you do have a recurring giving program. The question is, are you going to do anything about it? And, um, and once you know kind of where you are today, that’s where you can start to um forecast for lack of a better term, like what would it look like to grow this program, and, you know, what, how might that enable our our mission that our organization is trying to accomplish? You’re, you’re thinking, you know, as I was reading. Made me sort of reimagine the work that I do, uh, it’s sort of a different framework. My, my work is planned giving fundraising consulting. You, you listen to the show, so you probably know that, um. You know, and there are, uh, clients that have donors. I’m thinking about a handful of people, but they, they’re doing their recurring giving, they’re just doing it every year. They’re putting $1500 or $20,000 into, you know, on the planiving side into a charitable gift annuity. So you, you got me thinking, you know, well, all right, so. In, in, in my practice, I’m seeing this. I, I don’t think that is recurring giving. I, you know, but what, what value proposition we’re gonna get, you know, we’ll get formally to the, to the value proposition. We’ve, we’ve teased it like 4 times now. We will get to it. I, I promise our listeners, um. You know, but what am I offering these folks, you know, so some of them, uh, have come to expect maybe a comp to the annual gala at which is like a $500 a person ticket. So there’s $1000 you know, that, you know, I, I hesitate to be, uh, too, too, um, lofty in my own like self-aggrandizement, but I meet with them often, you know, there’s that, um, I’ve introduced them to the CEO. And in one case I’m thinking of uh an attorney who I introduced to the chief legal officer at a client. So they’re, so they’re getting it just got me thinking, thinking differently about my work. Yeah, uh, uh, uh, you just gave me a little different framework to think about, um, which was very kind of, uh, opening to me. So thank you. Oh, you’re welcome. Well we’re seeing it in planned, which, you know, you would think, well, planned giving, like that’s the opposite of recurring recurring giving is transactional. No, well, this is what we’re here to learn that sustainable sus sustainer giving is not transactional, that’s not what you want, but the, the, the stereotype is, well, planned giving is totally relational and, and this recurring giving is totally transactional. All right, so we’re here to break that down for you’re wrong about the sustain the sustainer giving. And there is overlap between the two. it was kind of a broadening thing as I was reading the book. Well, and even there’s a reason that you don’t see in the book, uh, save for maybe one or two spots. Um, I don’t refer to it as monthly giving. I refer to it as recurring giving. I didn’t call it I did I make a mistake? No, no, no, but I’m, I’m actually, it, it reinforces the point that you’re making, which is, is planned is at least certain parts of planned giving actually a form of recurring giving. You know, I go back in the, in the early part of the book, the kind of the ancient history studying humanity and Plato and you know, different people around philanthropy and the earliest form of recurring giving was the ancient Jewish people and the practice of what they called first fruits, you know, it’s like if you’re a If you’re a farmer or you’re a shepherd, then you would take the 1st 10% of your crop or your, you know, your livestock, and then you would bring it to the temple, which was the local central, you know, essentially authority for the Jewish people, and they would, um, They would then as a part of that process, they would then feed the, the poor and the widows and, and care for, care for those in need in their society and so that was a form of recurring giving. Now did it happen every month on the 1st and 15th? No, it happened every season, turns out because when you’re an agricultural economy. Uh, that’s when that happens, but this idea of this pattern of, of giving, and I do think we’re seeing lots of areas of fundraising, including plan giving, including what I would call major gifts, you know, middle or major gifts that are seeing their own influences, um, in recurring giving, you know, I had one client, uh, a couple of months ago, we ran a campaign. For new, you know, recurring donors to the organization, uh, and they had one donor sign up for $5000 a month, and I said on their credit card, and they said, yep, somebody’s getting a lot of miles, right? Um, but that donor, that’s the, that was the comfortable giving level for them versus another donor that might be $50 a month or or $20 a month, right? And so I do think we’re seeing this form of philanthropy intersect other, you know, uh, areas of philanthropy as well, and it’s all kind of, um, I think working together to increase generosity. I agree, yup, absolutely. We are seeing it. OK, thank you. Now, let’s, let’s talk about some of the incentives uh uh uh that uh you can use to induce folks. To, uh, into sustainable recurring giving, tick off, tick off some of your your favorites from the book. Yeah, you know, and I think with incentives, especially when I write about those in light of the subscription economy, people think again the more the consumer side, and there are certainly incentives that are literal, you know, it’s what we would call a backend premium, you know, like. Uh, you know, I donate and I get a copy of the latest book or I get a, you know, a chotchke of some form, um, and those are a form of incentive, um, really incentives are about helping move the donor to that point of decision, um. So some other incentives that I like though, um, so, uh, classic fundraising, but an absolutely powerful incentive is a match or challenge grant for recurring giving. So not just a sort of we have an overall match, but no, we have a donor that has agreed to match every first gift or the first few months of every, every new recurring donor that signs up. It’s a win from a middle and major donor perspective because you can actually uh use that to say, hey, you can help us multiply giving. Um, but then it’s also a very motivational thing for donors. Um, I’m a big fan of, um, uh, multipliers depending on the organization. So like if some organizations do a lot of like gifts in kind or volunteer service where you can say every gift, uh, every dollar you send results in $30 or $10 worth of impact because of the donated goods we have or the, you know, the volunteer force that we operate, so multiplier. Um, I would call deadlines and goals candidly a form of incentive, you know, um, so I’m a big believer in saying, hey, by this date, because of this very specific need and this very specific reason, we’re looking for, you know, 150, uh, you know, monthly partners to help accomplish this, you know, this vision. Um, and there’s other, there’s others, but those are some of my favorites, um. Could you do the bounce back for me? Explain, explain the bounce back is a device, um, and I, you know, my first job was in direct mail, so it’s it’s a direct mail specific term, but, um, is really a device that you send that then the donor’s gonna return. So I, we used to do this um with some of the shelters we would work with, we would do a Thanksgiving place map. And we would allow, um, donors, we would send the placemats to donors and we would say we were going to use these when we serve the Thanksgiving meals, the week of Thanksgiving. Would you consider writing a note of encouragement to somebody who’s down, you know, um, and that’s like a really beautiful bounce back device because it’s like, yes, I would love to do that, um, for, for those listening that are familiar with the concept of child sponsorship, you know, letter writing is actually a form of a bounce back like I’m gonna write a letter to. To, you know, the, the person that I’m sponsoring, um, so it’s just some sort of involvement device, um, that engages the donor. It’s time for Tony’s Take 2. Thank you, Kate. Another tale from the gym. Uh, an uplifting one, not, not a whiny one like Mrs. Blood and Soil last week. Uplifting There’s a man who comes to the gym. I see him 3 times a week, probably. He comes in in a walker, and he needs help. He has a friend who comes with him each time the friend holds the door. They park the walker alongside the wall, and then the friend helps him over to the bike, stationary bike, and this guy does the stationary bike. He’s certainly 80 plus, uh, could, um, could be mid to at least even could be mid 80s, maybe even a little higher. But there he is Several times a week. Coming in his walker, but he makes the trip and he does the stationary bike for, I don’t know, a long time, you know, I’m not cocking the guy, but he doesn’t just do it for 5 minutes. And then there’s a woman who comes in, not as often as the man in the walker. Uh, she works on the treadmill. And she has supplemental oxygen. She has a cannula. In her nose, and she has a small oxygen bottle in a backpack. And she does the treadmill, and not also not for a short time. We’re not talking 5 minutes. So, Of course I don’t know these people because, uh, I, as we know, I keep to myself in the gym, just try to listen to others and do my business and, and depart. But if the man with the walker who needs help getting from the, from the where he leaves his walker over to the bike, and the woman with the supplemental oxygen, if they can be working out. We all can. They inspire me. They make me realize there’s no excuse when I don’t, you know, sometimes some mornings uh don’t really feel like doing it. I think of, uh, I think of these folks. So if they can do it, we all can. And that is Tony’s take too. OK. I think you should go talk to these people. I mean, I’m not a gym person, so I don’t know like the gym etiquette, but I mean if they don’t have like headphones on, I think you should go like introduce yourself, go talk to these people, see what their story is. You do, right? I don’t know. Uh, neither one of them owns uh headsets, I don’t think. They don’t, no, they’re not wearing AirPods or headsets or anything. I don’t know, you know, I like, I like to keep to myself in the gym, you know, because, especially the man, the man on the uh on the um on the bike, he does a lot of talking on the bike. Um, you know, it’s the chatty, it’s the chattiness I’m trying to avoid. I don’t know. Uncle Tony, you’re a little chatty yourself where you wanna be. Uh, when I want to be, yeah, I turn on the charm. I turned the charm on, but, uh, in the gym, I just, I turn it off, I keep to myself, you know, I’m still the New Yorker. I, it wasn’t, I lived in New York 15 years. I didn’t grow up there. I grew up in New Jersey, but close to New York City, you know, and these folks are, it’s, it’s North Carolina, small town. Different sensibilities, uh, and I’m making, uh, unfair rationalizations, uh, and, and, uh, stereotypes and rationalizations, but these things are important, stereotypes and rationalizations. Right. OK. Well for now. For now, you’d leave it. OK, thank you for now. We’ve got uu but loads more time. Here’s the rest of Great Value and Sustainable Giving with Dave Riley. Do you know the movie about Schmidt with Jack Nicholson? Well, I mean I know it, but I don’t know. He has a pen pal that he’s he’s he writes to this as his life is a spiral down after his wife dies, um, he writes to uh I think it’s, I’m pretty sure it’s. Yeah, so you hear him. Like probably 3 or 4 times in the movie, he’s, you hear a voiceover of him writing to uh to explain how his first world problems are uh spiraling. Well, there is, by the way, a principle in that story, and that is the power of human connection. Um, in fact, the first, um, uh, shelter that I ever worked with on a recurring giving program was called Union Rescue Mission in Los Angeles. I write about them in the book. And the first program I ever worked on, Tony was what they call a meal a day program. So it was this idea of if you give, it costs about, um, at that time with goods and service uh donated goods, it was like $1. $20 or something like that, a meal. Um, and so if you do the math, that’s about $35 a month, pay for $35 a month, you can join our quote unquote meal a day program. But Tony, a couple of things. Number one, it was a ton of work, and number two is it didn’t work very well, like it had a pretty low fulfillment rate. Um, these were in the old check writing days, by the way, that’s how long I’ve been in this industry, um. And um you’re gonna have a hard time dating because I’m 63, so you’re you look like 40 something, so you’re a way to go, yeah, 43. I’m right behind you. Um, the, but the, um, the reason I bring that up is because what one of the things we did that when we pivoted the program was we made it. About the actual guests at the at the mission. Now you had to be careful, uh, you know, privacy, all those sorts of things, but we made it about, um, this idea of you are helping to care for the women, children and families that are at the mission, which at that point was more than 50% of their guests. And Tony, when we shifted from being about meals, which are, if you think about it, inanimate objects that like, well, I guess if I don’t give this month a meal doesn’t happen, sort of abstraction to human connection. To the actual, this is, this is a story of a person and we may have changed their name and, and changed their photo for their privacy, but this is a story of a person you’ve actually directly made a connection with when we made that human connection, the fulfillment rates immediately went up by double digits, like literally overnight, we pivoted from meal a day to this representative sponsorship, and it was a huge lift in fulfillment because we made that human to human connection. So I think of Nicholson and his, uh, pen pal apparently. Yeah it was that human to human connection. How did you get to uh the Union rescue mission? The, the, it sounds like I just kind of hearing your voice that that work really moved you. How did you, how did you get into that work? Well, I grew up in Southern California was was really the part of the reason why it so moved me, and I remember, um, volunteering in high school at um at uh one of the missions downtown San Julian and San Pedro Street, right there, Skid Row, the original Skid Row, Los Angeles. And, and you say in the book that’s one of the most dangerous places in the country. Yeah, it’s one of the most difficult place to this day, it’s yeah, it’s it’s a difficult environment, um, and I’ve I slept at the mission downtown and, um, and served and uh so for me, my first realization that I could do um professionally. The kind of work that I, uh, feel like I’ve really am, am wired for the marketing and fundraising and business and, you know, that kind of stuff. Uh, Tony, the first time I realized that was when I, um, got a job at a fundraising agency. Um, this was 20 years ago, uh, called Master Works, and it was the realization that wait a second, I actually actually could have a career, professional, fulfilling career where I actually am able to help. Uh, causes, um, and the first client I ever had, Tony was Union Rescue mission. So it was, it was doubly, it was a double whammy. It was a personal passion of mine, having grown up in Southern California and having experienced that, but then also right at the point where I realized that my life’s work could be about helping with uh issues and situations like that. And so it’s just, it’s always been close to my heart. How old were you when you started the volunteer work? Oh, the first time I probably went down to Skid Row, I would, I would have been a teenager, um, yeah, early high school, you know, 1516, something like that. That’s not for 15 or 16 year old. What do you remember what was it, was it your parents or what moved you where most people are hanging out with their boyfriends and girlfriends. You know, I, um, it was a school related activity. It was a, it was a, uh, one of the missions down there that did like a shoe exchange, you know, donate, uh, lightly used shoes and then we pair them up with people and so I remember it was the one of the high school teachers that, um, basically said, hey, we’re getting on a bus, we’re going down, we’re going downtown. So then you’re like literally, I was, you know, sorting shoes and stuff, but then you’re helping, you know, uh, individuals find shoes that were great for them and their needs and I just, I still remember that today. And candidly, you know, I just wrote about this week the the question of are we teaching generosity to our children, um, Tony, because now fast forward however many years, 25, 30 years, uh, from that point. Um, I’m a dad, you know, I have two daughters, they’re ages 11 and 14, and I’m asking the question, like, am I, are they seeing me and my wife display generosity? Are they have are, are, are they having experiences that they’ll be able to tell 30 years from now that impact the way they choose to live out generosity in their own lives. Um, and so it’s been a more introspective time, uh, but yeah, thanks for asking that question. And how do you think you can motivate an 11 and 14 year old to, to, to be generous? Oh, I love that. Um, so the first thing, and I was just, this was very top of mind, so the first thing is to, um, make it visible. I think so much of generosity these days can be invisible, and I mean, this coming from a guy who literally just wrote a book about recurring giving, which is generally automated and You know, EFT or, you know, ACH preferably or credit card. And so the first thing that I think especially for us today is how do we make that visible, um, and Uh, that’s the first one. The, the second is, um, how do we, uh, the phrase I use is normalized generosity. I think, um, I think there’s, there can be, uh, an issue with kind of virtue signaling for lack of a better term, like, you know, you look at me, I’m so generous. However, I’ve been guilty of like not talking about my passion for generosity and I think that’s candidly just as. Not just as bad. I don’t know what the right phrase is, but I want, I want my kids, I want the people that are in my life to know that generosity is just a part of who I am. And so in our family, we, we want to do things that help people’s help our kids see that generosity is a way of life. It’s not like, oh, at the holidays, you know, it’s like, no, this is something that we do on an ongoing basis and we actually just had a conversation with our kids. Um, this last week, um, because a local charity, uh, actually it’s a national charity called Atlas Free. They do a lot with human trafficking. Um, our local church actually partnered with Atlas Free to do a, um, a, a program called Freedom February, and there was this idea of the phrase they use is do what you love to fight what you hate. And so do something that you’re passionate about, but essentially raise money to help fight human trafficking. And so my girls, um, on their own said, we wanna, you know, we want to do baked, you know, goods for, uh, for, for, uh, fighting human trafficking. And so my oldest made French macarons. We just spent some time in France, so she’s all about that. My youngest made cake pops and cookies and they sold them. And it was so cool. I have a picture on our website of them at the at the the the Sunday market, you know, selling their, their baked goods, and just the joy on their faces. Number one, they got to do what they love. They actually really do enjoy baking, but this idea of like we are making a difference and, um, I think that’s a memory, I hope, and I think they will, will stay with them for the rest of their lives and will maybe subliminally but will shape future decisions that they have around generosity and the joy of giving. No, you’re, you’re clearly thinking through it for your, for your children, um. Let’s go back to the book. Thank you for a little, uh, personal digression. Uh, we, uh, teased a couple of times, as I said, the, the value proposition. Now this is all part of your, uh, 76 or 7? No, he’s 77 steps, 7 steps to a thriving sustainer program, right? Uh, we don’t have time for all 7. You just, you gotta get the book because, uh, you know, we’re gonna, we’re just gonna, we had a couple. Uh, I would really like to talk about the crafting, uh, your, it’s your number 3, crafting. The an ongoing value proposition. So here’s where we’re explicitly defeating the Myth misunderstanding that this is transactional work, not at all, not at all. Uh, give us your, give us your thinking about, uh, you, you, you make it clear it has to be holistic, you know, ongoing quarter in the slot on, on the value proposition. Absolutely, yeah, you know, in in classic fundraising, you know, that we talk about the offer, you know, how, you know, how much will, you know, a dollar do kind of a deal, and this is an expansion of that. Um, and I do borrow a lot and quote in the book, the, the folks at Next after, they’ve done a lot of work on what I would call single gift value propositions, so like what is, what does it look like to create a value proposition for a single gift, but really it’s not a big stretch to say, OK, what does an ongoing value proposition look like? And so, Um, so a couple things. Number 11 of the mistakes I see organizations make is they use their single gift value proposition and they just say, hey, would you give us that monthly? So, Union rescue mission, classic example, the best single gift offer for the the mission was a meal and shelter, was this like, you know, very low on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, it was a survival need. It was very easy, easy math, you know, $1 could basically a little more than $1 could provide a meal. Um, but like I said, the meal a day program, which is equivalent equivalent of saying let’s take our best single gift offer and just ask for that monthly, was the meal a day program. The fulfillment rates were not good. Um, so, so the first thing is I would just say be careful not to just assume that your best fundraising offer that you might use for single gifts is the same as your best fundraising offer for ongoing recurring giving. So some things to look for as you um define your ongoing value proposition. Um, the first thing is just to be super clear on the problem your organization exists to solve. Then, The second step is to really list out what I call your value claims, and again, this is borrowed heavily from the folks at Next after, but what are those things that are um Uh, that, that That are unique to your organization that helps to answer the question of, yes, we are the solution for this particular problem. Um, and then what you want to do is you list out those value claims, then you, uh, prioritize those. And the best way I know to do that is to actually talk to donors. Um, and so I don’t mean that euphemistically, by the way, Tony, I mean actually talk to don’t like call them, set up interviews, talk to donors. I’ve done that a lot with organizations as a third party, um, but until you actually understand what really motivates the donor and fires their imagination. Then, um, you, you’re just going to be guessing, you know, so talk to donors, and then I would say make sure you answer the question, why is this necessary on an ongoing basis? Because again, unlike uh single gifts, this is a donation that will hopefully be made month after month, year after year, and so you want to have a very clear ongoing need and the ability to then affirm the donor on an ongoing basis as they get towards that need. You make the point too that you should try to target um survival, safety, belonging, those again, those basic sort of Maslow needs. I think every organization has the ability to communicate its need in those sort of lower level survival, safety and belonging needs. And I think, and this is especially for organizations that tend to be a little bit more maybe esoteric or a little more um. Philosophical, you know, we help equip people with knowledge, which is true, but I think the question to for me to that type of a charity is, how does what you do contribute to the survival, safety or belonging of the people that you serve? And um, it’s so important to articulate your need in those terms and not in these kind of like higher functioning self fulfillment. You know, kind of needs, it’s just, um, and that’s really a classic fundraising lesson, you know, the, the more we can talk about how what we’re doing contributes to the survival, safety or belonging of the people we serve, the more just candidly emotionally resonant, um, the program will be with donors. Which one of your other seven steps, uh, to a thriving program? What do you, I’m feeling, I’m feeling very altruistic. We’re talking about talking about your daughters and now what which one what do you want to talk about? Well, we’ve had really two. We’ve hit the first one which is to benchmark your program and by the way, we do have a a vet blueprint guide, um, that is free, uh, Tony, so if folks want to get that, they can get that at sustainablegiving.org. Um, but so the first one we had is a benchmark your program, which is just how many, how much, how many donors do you have today? How much are they giving, and, and that’s a great place to start, crafting an ongoing value proposition and then, you know, just to pick one, I would say, um. I would say let’s talk a little bit about growing your program because that’s hard for you to pick, it’s hard for you to pick a favorite. They’re all my children. Yeah, so the 6th step is really to grow your program and I want to just point out one, there’s a number of things we cover in that that chapter, but one of the things we talk about is sometimes organizations make the mistake of focusing on the wrong growth lever. Um, so there’s two ways to get more new donors into your recurring donor program. Number 1, acquisition, straight, the first gift is a recurring gift, and then number 2 is what I would call conversion, and that is they’re an existing donor, single gift owner, and that you’re and they are becoming choosing to give on a, on a recurring basis. And the mistake I see is that organizations will focus on the wrong one of those two. and so they will be, for example, an organization that really their offer and who they are is really um tuned to them being what I would call a conversion focused organization, where really the best, most significant um success they’re going to see is by acquiring donors as single gift owners and then converting them to recurring. Um, but the mistake I see is I come in and they say, well, we’re running, you know, um, I don’t want to knock a channel, we’re running ads, uh, specifically for acquiring new donors, but nobody’s responding, and it’s like, well, actually your offer and your program are much more conducive to getting a donor in the door and then converting them. And then vice versa, sometimes organizations are very conversion focused when they could be acquisition focused. And so in the book, I’d say, what are the, the, the basic um components of an offer that is more conducive to acquisition. So just for example, um if it’s a highly visible need, very clear solution. Um, and it’s got a very clear specific price point and it’s widely understood. So, uh, for example, uh, not a client, but an organization I’ve respected over the years, Operation Smile. Uh, one of the things they do life saving surgeries, operations, certainly cleft palate, uh, surgeries. And it costs about, I think it was $270 to do a surgery. That’s a perfect acquisition offer because it’s super visible. Like you can literally, photos and video can tell the story of Operation Smile without doing anything else. It’s a very clear solution. We do these surgeries, very specific, you know, need, uh, an offer amount, $270 to a surgery, and that’s like a slam dunk for acquisition. Um, but a lot of organizations, and I would say a majority are more their uh their need, the need is takes a little explaining, um, the offer is not as clear and so it’s more about how do we get donors into the, the front door, giving that first gift and then. Move them candidly within 30 to 60 days, typically to then giving a monthly gift or or a recurring gift. And so that’s just one of the the levers and I write about that in the book of how do you know which one you should maybe uh uh put more emphasis in. You make the point in the book about the 30 to 60 day period. That’s the, that’s the period where people are most likely to convert. You want to flush it out a little bit? Yeah, it’s, it’s the, you know, people ask me when is the most likely time for a new, new single gift owner to convert, and we’ve already answered it, but it’s really right away. It’s that 1st 30, 60 days and I don’t know exactly why I have some hypotheses, you know, I think one of the reasons is that is the point in time when it’s the most fresh to that donor. They’ve made an initial decision to give a gift. Um, and by the way, this is a beautiful thing when you do have crisis type fundraising or disaster funding because those have classically been the most difficult donors to. Get to give a second gift. Um, but thanks to the subscription economy, we are all much more wired to be, uh, willing to do that and so. Um, you have the opportunity to basically within that 1st, 60 days to say, uh, basically two things affirm and invite, affirm that gift, you have made a difference. Thank you so much. You are the type of person that cares deeply about this cause, so you’re affirming, affirming, inferring, but you’re also very directly and indirectly inviting them to stand with the organization on an ongoing basis. And when I do a curve of um when people are most likely to uh convert, the highest time is always in that 1st 30 to 60 days, and then it falls candidly off a cliff for a while and then about a year later it might bump up again. So I’m not saying you can’t get people to convert to monthly giving on an ongoing basis, but that first introduction is, is really one of the most critical windows to uh to do that. You have a little advice on uh naming your sustainer program that that struck me because I, I have a sort of contrary opinion about naming, uh, what I don’t like legacy society, you know, plan giving recognition societies like stay away from legacy and heritage, please. There’s like ubiquitous, it could be anywhere, it could be any charity anywhere leg the legacy society, but share your advice about naming the recurring giving program. I think the short version is, um, and I think I opened that chapter with the Shakespeare quote, you know, um, you know, what a rose by a name, smells sweet, right? But I do think having a name meaning something that you can refer to as essentially a proper noun of the program is helpful because then when you’re referring to it in communications or you’re referring to them, the recurring donor, there’s like the shorthand, there’s the name, where a blank. I think it does create belonging. Um, but, and I outlined in the in the uh chapter on designing your program, really there’s two broad ways to do that, and I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer here, but one way is what I would call descriptive naming and so that’s like, um, basically it’s our, uh, friends of the family program where you’re literally describing the program, and then there’s what I would call fanciful naming. Um, and that is where it might be more of a metaphor, you know, like Charity Water has the spring, right? Um, and I give some examples of programs in that chapter, uh, and I wouldn’t prescribe one way or the other, um, fanciful or descriptive, uh, but I would say having a name that you can refer to is actually really helpful and, um, and, and a piece of the puzzle. Beautiful, thank you. And so we still have several minutes together, but I kind of like to close on your, your thoughts about the future. That’s your last chapter in the book, the future of sustain or giving, trends you’re seeing. Uh, in terms of mindset, yeah, you know, it’s one of the things that really caused me a lot of consternation in the first year, uh, since of saying I think I should write a book was. These things are changing, right? So how do you, how do you write a book that is then, um, you know, going to stand some test of time? And I will say, uh, those of you that are fundraisers, you know, there’s there’s some real timeless fundraising principles in the book, and so it’s not just certainly not a fad book, uh, or at least that’s not the goal. But I did feel like it would, I would be very remiss to not um include a section in the book on how recurring giving is continuing to change. And so I break that into a couple of different categories. Um, I talk about, um, where what people might think of in terms of technology and how technology is continuing to shift. Um, you know, there was a, there was a comment you made earlier that I was thinking about, you know, in terms of how people are choosing to give, um, I can’t remember offhand, but the, the, the reality is that um technology is shifting. Um, I think I saw a stat the other day, more than 50%, I don’t remember the exact percentage. Of, of, uh, consumers today prefer to use what is called a digital wallet, right? So that’s the thing where I double click on my phone, um, and I can choose my Apple credit card or my whatever Bank of America credit card. And so, you know, things like, um, that the charity I just mentioned that my daughters um did a fundraiser for Alice Free, I was able to You know, standing at the bake sale, you know, actually go in and make a make a gift and use a digital wallet. That’s a big deal when you’re when you’re not on a computer and I don’t have my credit card handy or whatever. So I do, I do have a chapter on technological advancement. I have a chapter on how AI is actually enabling um some capabilities around. Uh, recurring giving I think is really powerful. Um, I do think the donor experience will continue to evolve. You mentioned the one click checkout. I still don’t think most nonprofits have the equivalent of a one click checkout, so I write about that. Um, and then, um, I write about some, some, uh, innovative ways that organizations are thinking about financing, um, recurring giving. Uh, I’ll give you one simple example because that sounds maybe, uh, pretty high level. Um, some of the most innovative organizations I’ve seen have basically, uh, created a system by which they can reinvest in their recurring giving program from new donors. So they basically talk to their board and they say what we want to do is we bring in 10 thousands or millions of dollars a year. We want to reinvest the first. 10 months of value from any new recurring donor, um, to then grow the program and so what it ends up doing is it basically creates a snowball effect where instead of just Uh, you know, investing whatever the number is, um, every month in a straight line, which creates, by definition, linear growth, like, oh yay, you know, it’s growing. When you double down that investment and double down and double down, you essentially get a compounding curve and so I know of organizations that have grown, um. Double and triple digits because they are, uh, basically reinvesting. They understand the value of a new recurring donor and they’re reinvesting that in. And so that’s not very common today. I don’t see that a lot, but where I do see it, I see really explosive growth and so I wanted to shine a light on some of those trends. And where would you reinvest in in promotion, marketing? Technology, well, it depends on what your growth engine is, um, so for some folks, if they’re more of an acquisition oriented, uh, institution, then acquisition versus do more, yeah, do more, you know, face to face or whatever, um, versus an organization that might be more conversion oriented, it might be like, actually, we need to invest more in our single gift acquisition because we know that’s what fuels the funnel for for recurring. And just generally too, you, you anticipate a sustainer first mindset. Yeah, that’s the, that’s the, I don’t see that um completely across the board, but I couldn’t come away and not see that the some of uh many of I would say the fastest growing charities today have this sustainer first mindset and they either have had that for a long time, you think of organizations like the Compassion, International or World Vision, they’ve had that for a long time. Or, um, Charity Water is a more modern equivalent where they’ve had it for, you know, 89 years and that’s created significant growth, and then now they are, um, sort of diversifying their focus, but is it is this kind of this sustainer first mindset, at least for a significant period of time that seems to have been really correlated with rapid growth. The book is the rise of sustainable giving how the subscription economy is transforming recurring Giv, what nonprofits can do to benefit. Uh, person who wrote it is right here in case you, you probably put those two things together by now. Dave Raley, you’ll find him on LinkedIn, you’ll find the book plus the free resources. At sustainablegiving.org. Dave, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing and, and you have my good wishes for your, your daughter’s philanthropy. Oh, thank you. Well, and I, I hope for, for the rest of us, you know, that’s just it’s a deep passion and I do think that sustainable giving is a part of that. So thank you, thank you for investing the time and reading that book and drawing out those insights and, and, uh, yeah, I’m just, I’m just really uh hopeful for uh for our our sector. Next week, mental wellness amid the political chaos. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor Box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, DonorBox.org. I love that alliteration. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.