Tag Archives: bias

Nonprofit Radio for May 29, 2023: Equitable Project Management & Make Time For Professional Development

 

Rubin Singh: Equitable Project Management

An automated soap dispenser. One of the most innocuous objects imaginable. Unless it doesn’t dispense soap to people with dark skin. How does bias find its way into technology projects and hurt outcomes? How can we implement technology through an equity lens? Rubin Singh, from One Tenth Consulting, returns to help us understand.

 

 

Kelenda Allen-JamesMake Time For Professional Development

Kalenda Allen-James explains the value of investing in professional development and shares a lot of free resources along the way. She’s with Commonpoint Queens.

These both continue our coverage of NTEN’s 2023 Nonprofit Technology Conference, #23NTC.

 

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[00:01:47.10] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with S A trope AEA if I had to see that you missed this week’s show. Equitable project management, an automated soap dispenser. One of the most innocuous objects imaginable unless it doesn’t dispense soap to people with dark skin. How does bias find its way into technology projects and hurt outcomes? How can we implement technology through an equity lens? Reuben Singh from 1/10 consulting returns to help us understand and make time for professional development. Kalinda Alan James explains the value of investing in professional development and shares a lot of free resources along the way. She’s with common point queens. These both continue our coverage of N Ten’s 2023 nonprofit technology conference on Tony’s take two. Sharing is caring. We’re sponsored by Donor Box with intuitive fundraising software from donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Here is equitable project management.

[00:02:12.99] spk_1:
Welcome back to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 23 N T C. We’re kicking off our day two coverage with Ruben Sing. We are sponsored at 23 N T C by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Reuben Singh. My guest now is founder and CEO of 1/10 consulting Reuben. Welcome back to non private radio. Thank

[00:02:21.10] spk_2:
you, tony second or third. This is our third time chatting to

[00:02:26.03] spk_1:
virtual. Yes.

[00:02:27.27] spk_2:
Good to meet you in person. Yes, for sure. Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure to

[00:02:44.06] spk_1:
have you next to me, your session this year is managing projects with an equity lens. I think that’s pretty self explanatory. But why don’t you give us a 30,000 ft overview of why this is important for nonprofits?

[00:03:41.07] spk_2:
Yeah. You know, I, I feel like throughout my years of consulting, it’s been about 25 years of consulting. Now, I’ve, I’ve encountered some scenarios here and there that, you know, I, I’ve always thought were odd scenarios, you know, in the middle of the project, you know, working with consultants, working with our nonprofits where, you know, maybe something was borderline, discriminate, discriminatory or, you know, something just didn’t feel right. And, you know, I, when I was younger in the, in the consulting space, I didn’t really pay much mind to it. I said, hey, I’m just following, you know, my mentors and following best practices. Um you know, I’m learning the ropes. Um But, you know, as I got further in my career and I started talking to other technologists of color, other consultants. Um and uh and honestly, spaces like this at NTC where we have very frank and open discussion about race and technology and the intersection. It really um I realized a lot of these things, I was encountering these projects. We’re not, we’re not okay. They were problem at and in fact, we were allowing bias race um and uh to, to really seep its way into projects. Um And, and not only is that problematic in a, in a larger sense, but it also does not lead to good outcomes for the projects and the systems themselves. What,

[00:03:57.93] spk_1:
what does this look like? What, what kind of forms does the bias racism

[00:04:18.07] spk_2:
take? Um Well, let me give you an example if that’s OK. Yeah. So, um you know, I was working with one organization that uh you know, had really said that and actually, I was, I was very impressed with them that they had very, a very strong diversity statement, equity statement and they even extended it to their goals. They say, you know, what we’re, we have a lot of volunteers were a volunteer organization, but we um we realize that we don’t have a very diverse volunteer group. So this is going to be not only a statement of ours that we want to diversify our volunteer group, but we also want to, you know, we want to implement that in 20 you know, whatever the year was. Um, and just, what kind of work were they

[00:04:40.98] spk_1:
doing?

[00:04:42.87] spk_2:
Um, well, I mean, I don’t want to get

[00:04:45.46] spk_1:
to general

[00:05:57.20] spk_2:
social service. They, they were grassroots organizing, grassroots organizing. Let’s put it under that kind of, yeah, I mean, they’re great organization. So I’d hate to, um, I’m not asking you. Right. Right. But, but I think, um, the, uh, definitely in the, in the grassroots organizing and um you know, they kind of found that they are um uh you know, that they need to diversify their volunteer base. And I appreciated that not only was it a statement, but they had taken a step further to make it part of their goals for that particular year. But then, you know, statements aside, once we got into the project, we realized that um you know, there were certain, uh there were certain algorithms that were being that were implemented in their volunteer searches that actually filtered out a lot of criteria. So they said, oh, you know what, we, we have so many applicants, we can’t, we can’t screen everybody. So we implement these filters and the filters will, you know, the filter is kind of looking at them. I realize it’s really going to leave you with very privileged resource to people, you know, gets an education, family, education, household income, so on and so forth. And so, you know, we have this dialogue of, you know, if if these are really your goals that you want to diversify and you want different socioeconomic um groupings in your volunteer base, then you really need to reconsider this. And it was just a perfect example of how with all good intentions with great diversity statements. But even something as simple as an as an algorithm in their search um was was really letting bias find its way into the, into the implementation. And

[00:06:32.57] spk_1:
that’s an ideal example because it’s so buried. I mean, most people that may have been developed by a developer or it may have not even been developed in house, you know, some developer from like could been years ago may have created this algorithm unintentionally let’s assume biased and it just, it just perpetuates and nobody even knows that it’s there, it’s buried in code basically

[00:06:53.31] spk_2:
for sure for sure algorithms live. And if I’m a developer and someone comes to me and says we have too many applicants, we need to filter out X Y and Z to make it easier. Well, as a developer oftentimes, I’m thinking, oh how can I make this better? How can I make this more efficient? Um And they don’t really think about it. So, so this is where I think, you know, um I take it upon myself as a consultant to, to really and D I practitioner to, to raise these things because again, these organizations have great intentions. They’re just not always able to bridge the gaps unless it’s called out,

[00:07:16.45] spk_1:
unless it’s called out. Right. So, I mean, if you have something like this very deep, how would you ever discover

[00:08:06.07] spk_2:
it? Yeah, it, and that kind of goes to really the title of the session is, is managing projects with an equity lens. So the key point there is, is not really separating things. So it’s not about okay. Well, we have this diversity statement, let’s all celebrate it. And now let’s move on to our project. It’s really um taking every single part of the project anytime. In fact, when we start projects, now, I will ask for, let me see your diversity statement. Let me even if you know, chances are you may not be reflecting on it a lot. Let’s dust it off, you know, after 2020 and, and let’s take a look at it. Um And, and, and just like we review missions and visions of the organization before a project. I want to review your diversity statement that way I can make sure every step of the way I’m asking these questions because, hey, it’s your statement, it’s a priority for you. So as a, as a um a trusted partner of yours, I should make held you accountable to that.

[00:08:30.49] spk_1:
I’m just, I’m concerned, yeah, I understand we’re talking about managing projects. So from the outset concerned about organizations that have any kind of bias uh coded in somewhere that, that they just, they don’t know that. I know. I understand. We’re digressing from your topic. We got plenty of time. Yeah, we have plenty of time. You know, you’re, I’m forcing you asking you to digress, you know, but this is, this thing is buried somewhere or these things, these biases are buried. Uh, what’s our hope of ever uncovering

[00:09:23.13] spk_2:
them? Well, I mean, I think, um, you know, it’s interesting even in day one of the conference here at N T C I, I attended a couple sessions. Uh and, you know, the, the narratives are the points that I was bringing up was not just coming out of my session, but, you know, I attended a session that spoke about audience and campaigns and, you know, developing um content that’s, you know, that, that resonates with audiences um that are often overlooked. And, and, and so it was interesting because in their discussion, they were bringing up a lot of the same points that I was bringing up. So, um I’m most hopeful because of to be and I swear that intend to not put me to this. But I, I think like organizations like in 10 forums like NTC, um you know, we’re putting things out there and I think that’s what gives me hope more than anything. Um You know, we’re raising

[00:09:41.57] spk_1:
consciousness, 13,000 people are going

[00:09:43.61] spk_2:
to listen. Absolutely. So, so, I mean, if that’s, if that is, that alone gives me, it gives me a lot of hope Okay. Alright, we can

[00:10:10.60] spk_1:
circle back to your your specific topic about managing projects so that we have equity focus equity center from, from the outset. Okay. Um How are you? I’m just going to your like learning objectives, how bias finds its way into tech project? Well, I think we talked about that. It happens. I mean, I think probably do you think it’s usually innocuous?

[00:11:24.04] spk_2:
Yeah, I really do. Um and, and it finds its way and, and then I think it also finds its way through what we often refer to as best practices. Um, you know, if I can give you an example, um through most of my consulting career, we often use personas as a way of trying to understand our constituents. So, you know, Mary is a single mother of two and wants to attend the museum, but, you know, is unable to afford the, the, the, the, the entrance fee or the membership fee. Um And, you know, again, I kind of sat through a lot of these things with, you know, feeling uncomfortable but, you know, thinking it was just me. Um, but then I started doing a little research and I realized I’m definitely not the only problem with personas. Um And the idea of, you know, a group of mostly, you know, white folks are sitting in a room deciding, you know, what they’re black constituents think, um that, that makes me uncomfortable and, and, um to the point where I’ve, I’ve raised this and, and I think that although I think persona mapping is a good exercise and can and does have merit, it can be done without race, ethnicity, gender. Uh You can take a different approach to it. You can use archetypes, you can use different models, let’s say, hey, you know, so and so is a person who’s never been to the museum before? So and so is the person who is very interested in education, but not so much interested in the advocacy work that we do. There’s different ways that we can get at um persona mapping without having to get into race, ethnicity, gender. If, if I mean, personally, I don’t think it’s very useful, but um but at a minimum, it surely would make people uncomfortable.

[00:12:08.53] spk_1:
You know, I’m saying that these are these things maybe are embedded innocuously, but they come from the fact that so many software engineers, developers, coders are now middle aged white guys, right? I mean, so it’s, it’s, it’s their own inherent biases built into the code that we’re all living with

[00:12:31.70] spk_2:
and, and to be fair, tony, I also feel I’m guilty of it as well. I mean, because I went many, most of my career not speaking out against these things and um you know, incorporated into my own style. So I think, you know, while you’re right, I think like, you know, um it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s also the onus on all folks, technologists of color as well. Um, to make sure we’re raising our hands when we’re seeing something like this. That, that, that feels, that feels wrong. Um, so, but yeah, I feel like I’ve, I’ve perpetuated this, I participated in this and, you know, starting my own company. It was, it was one thing that I felt like. Okay. Well, now that we’re, now that I understand now that I know now that I’ve seen it, you know, what can I do differently? What are some different, different things that we can do to, um, to kind of right the wrongs that, that we’ve seen in the space

[00:12:55.60] spk_1:
we’re gonna talk about how all this impacts outcomes. I do want you to remind folks why your company is called one

[00:13:53.63] spk_2:
10th. Yeah. You know, there’s a couple of plays on it. You know, we, um, uh, in the, in the sick tradition, which I’m from, we, uh, we have this concept of 1/10 of our, of our earnings that we give through either service or through funding to, um, to charity, back to the, back to the community, um, to help those in need to help humanity. And it was interesting that that’s a tradition that, you know, is, you know, I grew up with, but as I started delving into non profit work and, and consulting, I realized that we weren’t the only ones that, that, in fact, most religions actually have the same idea and the same, um, or faith traditions have this idea of this 10%. Exactly. So, so it was just one of those things I thought was, hey, this is a pretty cool thing about, you know, giving our money, investing our money in communities. Um And it’s something that, you know, so many different faith traditions and communities have in common. Um There’s another play on it also that nonprofits are really working with 1/10 of the resources that they, that they need. So, so it, it has sort of a couple different meanings. So let’s,

[00:14:03.69] spk_1:
let’s talk about the outcomes of these biases, impact outcome.

[00:15:22.60] spk_2:
Yeah. Um Well, you know, I was given an example yesterday in the presentation that one of the, the sort of suggestions I had about, you know, seven or eight different suggestions on how we can address these issues of bias and projects. And one of the ones I brought up was making sure that, you know, as you walk into as you day one or kick off of the, of the project implementation that you have the right team that’s ready for you. Um And when I say right, team oftentimes with I T projects I walk in and they’re like, okay, here’s our team, it’s the I T director, it’s super users and it’s all technical folks and, and okay, you know, I see the merit to that. But if this system is really meant to be for everyone that I’d like to see people, they’re of different age, of different technical proficiency, different ethnicities, different race. Um because we all sort of process things a little bit different based on our upbringing and our experiences are shared experiences. Um So make sure your team is more diverse. Um And, you know, I start thinking about where that has not happened. Um You know, and, and you, you’ve probably heard the stories of, you know, where facial recognition and AI can go wrong. But, you know, it’s still to this day where sometimes in a restroom that has automatic soap dispensers, I can put the back of my hand underneath it and it won’t, it won’t dispense soap until I, you know, put the palm of my hand up and it will, um, you know, I think back about when the COVID vaccine was first rolled out, it’s a real thing, are

[00:15:31.80] spk_1:
biased towards white.

[00:16:36.17] spk_2:
It’s a real thing. Yeah. And one thing to think about it. Yeah, but there’s, there’s so many examples of this and a slightly different one and probably something many people can relate to is when the COVID COVID vaccine was, was rolled out. Um You know, I was, I called my parents. I said, hey, did you sign up for it? Did you register for it? I said, oh no, we can’t fill out this form. And I was like wondering what’s going on. So I looked at the form and sure enough, I mean, and granted, this was in the early stages and perhaps it was just where I lived but it was multiple pages, four pages long. Uh, you couldn’t save throughout, it was medical history. It was health insurance. It was, um, all kinds of information that people may not have readily available when they’re signing up for a vaccine. Um, and then the entire time there’s this timer going where in 10 minutes if you don’t finish, you have to start over like you’re buying tickets. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Maybe this is okay for, for, for lots of people, but for the immigrant community or for my parents are in their eighties, it was not working for them. And then sure enough, you go on the news and they say, you know, older folks and, and immigrant communities are not not signing up for the vaccine. So, you know, here me and my friends are calling all our relatives and, you know, signing them up. Um So it was just yet another example where, um you know, and there’s many examples of this but of just how, you know, perhaps if there was different folks involved in the process of testing this out, um you know, different ages of different ethnicities and different communities, maybe there would have been a better response.

[00:17:48.12] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Stop the drop with donor box. Over 50,000 nonprofits in 96 countries use their online donation platform. It’s no wonder, four times faster. Checkout easy payment processing, setup fees, monthly fees, pasha contract. How many punitive donors drop off before they finish making the donation on your website? You can stop the drop donor box helping you help others at donor box dot org. Now back to equitable project management with Reuben

[00:17:55.13] spk_1:
Singh. Anything else about outcomes before we move to to some, some methodology about being better?

[00:18:05.52] spk_2:
Yeah, outcomes. I mean, I think, um I think that’s, that’s a key one.

[00:18:07.49] spk_1:
Don’t hold out on non proper radio. Did your session. So you want to hear everything you shared yesterday?

[00:19:54.50] spk_2:
Yeah, I, I think um you know, another point we brought out was and I think it is tied to outcomes is uh iterative development. And you know, you may think that’s sort of a deep project management, you know, concept what does it have to do with equity. Um But I, I do believe that iterative project management is key because if you do bring together a diverse set of folks for you as your project team, they’re not all gonna be CRM experts or digital communication experts. So you cannot just um hand the project group 350 requirements and say, okay, approve them by the end of the week or disappear for two months and say okay, here’s the system test in a week and let us know if it’s done, it’s just not gonna work it if you want to do things with equity in mind. Um and you’re trying to get a diverse audience. You need very iterative development. You need multiple proof of concepts. You need uh several demos because they may just not understand all the terminology. They may not understand all the nuances until they see things. Um because that’s what’s most related to their day to day job when they can actually see the systems in place. So I can’t tell you, Tony how many times I’ve finished a project, you know, early in my career and, you know, someone will finally come to me and say, you know, I’ve, we finished the project. We’re on budget, we’re on time, we checked all the boxes, we’re all celebrating, but I have no idea how this is gonna work. I have no idea if this is gonna be successful or not and I don’t want anybody to feel that way. So, so that’s something that, you know, I, I believe we need to consult differently. We need to keep equity in mind and we need to, uh you know, really take them along for the ride and if the ride is not working, we, we change paths. Um And I surely do. I’m doing that right now for a project um where it’s like, you know, things are not sticking the way because, you know, this is not what the project team does day to day to design systems. So let’s step back, let’s figure out what’s gonna work for you and then we, we’ll adjust our, our project accordingly.

[00:19:57.37] spk_1:
Our listeners are not tech folks. Um, they’re C E O S fundraisers, board members. What can they on the, essentially your, your clients, the users, what, what can they and some of the main leadership positions, what, what can they do to make a difference around the projects that they’re hiring, they’re hiring other folks like you to

[00:20:21.33] spk_2:
do? Yeah. Well, I think, I think definitely, you know, going back to the assembling the right team and having a diverse uh team that’s there. So the

[00:20:28.18] spk_1:
project contributing match exactly what the

[00:22:15.36] spk_2:
users group. Exactly. Exactly. Um And you know, and the key thing is if you don’t have the expertise in house, it’s okay there, there’s, there’s, you know, uh consultants that can help you with accessibility, there’s consultants that can help you with Human Centered design. I’ve met several of the folks here, you know, over the last couple of days. So if you don’t have that expertise in house, this is where I think management leadership can, can bring in those appropriate people. Um And also, um I was working with one organization that said, well, you know, we don’t know how are, how are local community feels about our museum? Let’s say we’ll go ask them, you know, and it’s a different, it’s a different way of thinking. And so this is where leadership really comes into play to say, okay, well, you know, can we do something externally, can we do surveys? Can we do focus groups? Can we bring the community and understand why they’re not attending? Um But I think a key thing also and this may not be something that folks always think about is requesting the right team from the vendor that you bring in. So just as you want a diverse thoughtful team internally, you want your consultants or vendors that’s coming in to also represent that. Um you know, I was facilitating some vendor selections for a particular implementation on behalf of the client. And then towards the end of the selection process, they said to me, um well, you know, the last two that we met, they were pretty much neck and neck. I, you know, they seem to have the same delivery model, their prices are about the same, but I did notice that only one of them had any people of color or any women on their team that they brought to us to demo, this is the solution and to talk to us about the approach. And that right there shows us they’re more aligned with our values than the other one is. And so this is something I tell my, my peer organizations all the time, like if, if you don’t care about equity university in your projects, your clients will and that’s gonna affect your bottom line. So if nothing else, you know, look at it from that perspective. So, so that’s, that’s something I think leadership management can do is bring the right people internally, bring the right people in externally if need be and, and, and feeling comfortable enough to um to uh to ask for, for the right team. Another element of that is in leadership as you’re bringing in partners, incredibly valuable, excellent.

[00:22:36.37] spk_1:
This is what I mean, this is what the listeners need. They’re not the developers, so more of it, I appreciate it.

[00:22:42.86] spk_2:
Yeah, I’m trying get all riled up when I talk about. This is something I’m so passionate about. Feel free to

[00:22:46.88] spk_1:
use your hands. We’re not, we’re not, you can even be obscene gestures were

[00:24:15.56] spk_2:
not recording video, definitely walking around in yesterday’s session. There’s a lot, a lot of hand movement going on. Um But, you know, one of the points I mentioned yesterday also was his partner in vendor diversity. And, you know, this is something I feel strongly about I happen to serve on the Salesforce partner equality uh committee. Um And this is something I’ve been advocating for for a while that, you know, you have um these great tools that allow you to search for different partners. But why can’t we have filters on that to say I’m looking for a system implementer that is run by a person of color or someone from the L G B T Q I A community or from the indigenous community or whatever. Um And we should we know the information. So why we’ve been taking surveys for decades and we’ve identified that there’s a problem with diversity. Well, why not give the customers a choice, why not allow them to apply some filters to say, you know what, this is part of our goals to, to bring in more vendors of color, um or, or owned by, by vendors of color. So, so let’s uh so let’s uh make that a priority, but we have to give them the information. Um So this is something I encourage folks even when I’m asked. Um Okay, Ruben, you know, you’re, you focus on this particular area, but, you know, for digital communications, can you recommend someone? I will make sure in any 23 people that I recommend that one of them will represent a community that is often overlooked in this nonprofit technology space and give them the choice and tell them that and give them the choice. Um Yeah, you can work with this person that we’ve, we’ve worked with for a long time or here’s the advantages of working with, with, with this organization. And I think, you know, by us taking that initiative, you know, um and by leadership asking for it, we’re going to slowly start, you know, adjusting that, that, that power dynamic and creating more balance in the space

[00:24:59.02] spk_1:
so much of it. I think it’s just, it’s consciousness thinking about your software development projects, your, your, your new CRM, your new HR system, you know, whatever it is uh thinking about being thoughtful about the vendors that you talked to, perhaps the consultants that you hired to help you select a vendor. Because that um that’s, that’s an important step in the process of actually implementing, you know, choosing, choosing one is who’s helping you to choose.

[00:25:14.68] spk_2:
And I think that um you know, I get a lot of pushback when I bring this up, they say, oh, well, you know, uh you know, account execs, they have their relationships with people so they, they bring in their, their, their person, you know, they bring in their vendor, they bring in their partner, they bring in the person and there’s no real regulation over that. Um, and, um, you know, you take these larger software companies and they kind of leave it to the discretion of the account executive to make their decisions on, you know, what partners they bring in and frankly, you know, I, I, I work with organizations but this is where the client can say, client can

[00:25:43.46] spk_1:
say something. I’d like some choices, not just your, your preferred. Yeah, I’d like some choices and I want at least one to be a woman owned business or

[00:26:12.63] spk_2:
100% 100% because these preferred partners are not always the best and I speak firsthand. I’ve had undo a lot of messes from these preferred partners and I’d say that, um, and when I sit and talk to other partners, um, you know, uh, where that our partner organizations that are women owned or owned by people of color, they say, yeah, you know, we feel left out of this mix because we all know that if you just leave it to discretion, um that is as we’ve seen, you know, throughout history, that’s where privilege, race and racism and bias, you know, end up being the default.

[00:26:21.68] spk_1:
The cynic in me questions questions, why are these folks are preferred partners? What kind of preferences are they giving? Uh Okay,

[00:26:30.17] spk_2:
I’m, I’m

[00:26:39.84] spk_1:
purely speculating, but you know, the way you’re describing it, the preference seems to not be based on uh talent and, and positive

[00:27:29.55] spk_2:
outcome, not, not from what I’ve seen. And I think, you know, our company is an example of that, you know, we, we are often left out of the, you know, the big marketing efforts. Um you know, and, and um but, you know, when we work with organizations, um our business has been 100% referral after that. Um And, and because we, we are mindful of all these things, we, you know, we have a decent success rate. And so, um and so our business has been 100% referral based after that. We’ve stopped advertising, stop marketing, stop all of that. And, and we often find ourselves um uh being connected with other nonprofits that serve communities of color um because they’re like, hey, you know, just the fact that you’re thinking about these things, uh we are, our experiences are different and the fact that you can even recognize that, you know, we want to work with you. Um So, so, and we’ve been very grateful for that and, and, and, you know, take that very seriously when organizations come to us with that kind of approach,

[00:27:37.40] spk_1:
is there anything else you can recommend for our listeners on the, on the client side that, that they can do, You

[00:29:49.46] spk_2:
know, there’s, there’s probably a couple other things that, that I think are important, things like a project charter, which may seem um, well, everyone has a project charter or that’s really just a very, what’s the charter? It’s um it’s kind of like at the very beginning of the project, it outlines kind of who’s who, what the goals are, um how decisions will be made, um you know, the frequency of meetings who are the stakeholders. So it’s kind of like defines bylaws. That’s great. That’s a great way. Exactly. Exactly. And it’s, it’s always recommended that, you know, the project Management Institute recommends project charters has all kinds of templates for it. But I will say that, you know, practitioners don’t always invest a lot of time in it. It feels like an unnecessary step. Um I in the past have not spent a ton of time with it. But when I started looking at things through an equity lens, I said, you know what, this is really important. If nothing else, um definitely the stakeholders part in the decision making process because if we leave, um unless we have very clear ways where decisions are made, oftentimes, it can end up being the most influential person in the room, the loudest male voice in the room is going to sway the decision one way or another or, you know, a lot of sort of um uh you know, nice talk is happening in the larger meeting and then the executives go on a separate meeting to make it, you know, the real decision. Um And so like, you know, a good charter can help avoid these things and say, hey, look, you know, as a project team, we trust each other. So if there’s a executive decision it needs to be made, we’re gonna make it in the group, you know, at least everyone should be listening to it, everyone should be here for it. Um So I think a clear project charter, something very tangible that folks can do. I think having very clear meeting norms. Um and, you know, meeting norms are very common thing, you know, how we start the meeting, how we end the meeting, you know, who takes notes on and so forth. But I think looking at that from an equity lens, um uh is very important also. So making sure that, you know, the person who is leading the meeting or taking the notes or advising that those roles rotate. Um So again, we’re not leaving, we’re not letting decisions be made strictly through the power dynamic. We’re, we’re allowing everybody to participate equally. So if we allow people to participate equally, the outcomes are likely to be more equitable. Um So even something as simple that, you know, many project managers do charters and norms, you know, it’s just about looking at it through an equity lens uh and tweaking those charters and norms accordingly. Okay.

[00:30:03.00] spk_1:
Have we exhausted that? I think

[00:30:04.47] spk_2:
so. I think so. I think so. Yeah, very good.

[00:30:07.33] spk_1:
All valuable. Um What kind of questions did you get? Anything? Uh stick with you from your, from your session,

[00:32:11.78] spk_2:
you know. Um Yes. Uh There was a couple of questions that um one of the questions which I really had to think about was, well, you know, our organization um does projects with an agile approach and that is our, you know, that is our methodology and that is what we promote that as part of our marketing. That’s what we do. And um and then, you know, they said to me, you know, to the group that we’re also finding it’s not working for nonprofits. And I think there’s an equity, you know, foundation to this as well. And, you know, a lot of nodding heads in the, in the audience. And um and this is where I kind of said, well, you’re right, you know, and, and this is where we need to meet the nonprofits where they are. Um, and this is where the extension models or some of the more popular consulting models are just not, not going to fit nonprofits, organizations that may have a light I T staff or no I T staff or you have an event coordinator who’s gonna be your project manager, um, or, you know, a program manager who is going to be your primary contact. You can’t just use the same models as you would with an organization that had 20 people in I T um or an organization, you know, like I work with that, you know, um we’re midway through an implementation and then they said, you know, the governor of Texas just dropped off, you know, 200 people to our, um to our community center and we don’t, we have no plan for them right now. So, okay, we have to take a couple weeks off or, you know, this gala, you know, was, was, um was in person and now we’re gonna have to go virtual. Okay, we’re gonna take a couple weeks off. So most consulting models and especially agile methodologies can’t support this. But this is the reality of nonprofits in 2023. So it was a great question. A lot of nodding heads. In fact, someone came up to me afterwards and said, this is the third time I’ve heard someone say, you know, model X does not work for nonprofits. So, so I think, um that question was great. And it really, um you know, highlighted the point of, you know, kind of how important these forums are um to start realizing that, you know, the tried and true methods, the models that have worked for other corporations. That’s great. We can learn from it. But um nonprofits are a different entity and we have to take that into account and that’s for the

[00:32:23.72] spk_1:
vendor consultant uh community to be.

[00:33:25.96] spk_2:
Right. Right. And, and also sure and also for the client to, to speak up when, when they feel like things are not going, you know, you know, things are going awry or things are not feeling comfortable. So I think it’s, it’s, it’s on both. Yeah. Um There were other questions that I, I really didn’t have an answer for like, okay, but, but they were excellent questions nonetheless. It was, it was like, um okay. So let’s say that you do approach things with an equity lens. How do you, once the project is over? It was an excellent question. How do you know you succeeded? How do you know that, you know, you, you, how do you measure this? And I didn’t have a great answer for that. And in fact said, you know, I want to think about this and because I think there can be a rubric that can be put together to say, you know, even just the things that we’ve talked about today. Um Did we assemble a team that is diverse. Did we rotate the roles in the meeting norms? Did we make clear decision making details in our project charter? So I think there is a rubric that could be put together. In fact, I’m gonna talk to some of my friends here in the, in the intent community to see if that’s something we can, uh you know, we can draft because, because it feels like something that, that this forum can really add value to

[00:33:31.91] spk_1:
it. And what about comparison of outcomes, maybe a year after implementation versus the year before implementation?

[00:33:38.21] spk_2:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, I think all these things can be measured. You know, it’s, it’s just a matter of just coming up with the right rubric or the right scorecard, we measure everything else. Why not measure this? Yeah,

[00:34:01.15] spk_1:
sounds good. You know, it, if you ever are at a loss for an example of where bias and discrimination have entered our culture for folks of color, think of that freaking soap. That’s, it’s, you know, it’s so insidious and so deep rooted yet it’s a soap dispenser. It’s on its face, it’s so innocuous, it just pushes out.

[00:34:19.72] spk_0:
But the

[00:34:21.50] spk_1:
bias built into that technology, that’s

[00:34:31.16] spk_2:
a striking one for me. And there’s so many of this. And if I, if I may highlight the work of Benjamin who um who does has an excellent book called Race After Technology and many books on the same topic that just kind of talks about the intersection of race and technology and so many more examples of this that are, that are so shocking when, when you, when you read about this, about the bias that encourage the technology that we use every single day,

[00:35:03.44] spk_1:
Reuben Singh, he’s founder and CEO at 1/10. Consulting Rubin. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, tony. Thanks for your honesty. Thanks for sharing. Thank you, appreciate it. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti, non profit radio coverage of 20. Uh where are we? 2023 2023 the nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Thanks so much for being with me.

[00:36:22.72] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two to sharing is caring. Who can you share non profit radio with friends, colleagues, people you used to be friends with, well know people used to be colleagues with. Yeah, uh your social channels possible for you to post on the show there. Certainly, if you tag me, I will give you a shout out. Might even make you listen over the week. I’d be grateful if you would think about who should be listening to non profit radio, who can benefit from our smart guests. That’s what it’s all about. It’s spreading the words, the wisdom of our savvy guests so that more nonprofits go out and be great. If you can share non profit radio, I’d be grateful. Thank you. That is tony Stick to, we’ve got Boo koo but loads more time, the boo koo is back here is make time for professional development.

[00:36:58.30] spk_1:
Welcome to our continuing coverage of 23 N T C the 2023 nonprofit technology conference. We’re at the Colorado Convention Center in Denver, Colorado where we are sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits with me now is Kalinda Alan James. She is assistant vice President, Information Technology at a common point. Queens Kalinda, welcome.

[00:37:05.39] spk_3:
Thank you for having me. And I

[00:37:07.33] spk_1:
should have asked you, what are your pronouns? She

[00:37:10.46] spk_3:
her? Okay.

[00:37:30.01] spk_1:
She was good. I got, I got lucky. But I, I got to ask in the beginning, this was, this worked out perfectly because I have such a smart social manager who was organizing all these appointments and someone couldn’t make it. And Kalinda was on the wait list and it worked out perfectly that she’s available. So thank you. It’s kind of last minute, but it is last minute, but it’s perfect. Glad you glad it worked out

[00:37:33.04] spk_3:
with technology we worked with last

[00:37:46.76] spk_1:
minute. Yes. As long as the people are, the people are they’re ready for us to. Um So your session topic is making time for professional development. Do you feel like we are short changing ourselves and others around professional development in the nonprofit space? Yes,

[00:37:56.07] spk_3:
we are tasked with learning new things all the time, but we’re not always given the time or the resources to learn those things.

[00:38:06.72] spk_1:
So we need, it sounds like something from the top, from the top down, leadership down needs to be committed.

[00:38:35.02] spk_3:
So you can top down leadership will make it a much faster process. But from the ground level up also works. Um for example, pre pandemic, I was working in middle school technology three years before the pandemic, I became a Google, certified educator and trainer. When I put this information in the file cabinet at hr they were like, that’s nice to know. But once the pandemic came upon us and we had to move all our students online in three days. Having that information in the file cabinet allowed me to become a linchpin for my company.

[00:38:54.23] spk_1:
So let’s not, let’s not take this learning and stick it on a shelf in a file cabinet,

[00:39:23.54] spk_3:
right? And so this is where when you do get the learning, you have to advertise it. If you’re doing it from the ground up and going into the break room during staff meetings, letting people know that I’m a Google certified trainer allowed me to pick up two or three teachers on the staff who didn’t necessarily have leadership support but were interested and I was able to do internal training. And so this groundwork movement that I started three years before pandemic really prepared my environment to be ready when the time was upon us. Alright, love

[00:39:43.67] spk_1:
it ground up as well. Alright. It’ll but it’ll be easier if it’s top down. Yes. Okay. But not to, not to be discouraged if your leadership is uh I don’t know, reluctant. Yes.

[00:40:05.65] spk_3:
And even at the mid level, you know, with my staff, I have a lot of all my staff members to put two hours of professional development on their weekly work calendar to let them know that, hey, we’re giving you resources during the workday. So we’re not adding a burden to your home life. I also have the same two hours on my work calendar. So they know I have focused time. So I am leading by example. And also now that I am a leader in my organization, I am providing the resource of at least the two hours on the weekly calendar for professional development, which

[00:40:52.82] spk_1:
is a perfect lead into your first takeaway, which is we have time for professional development. Yes. So make the time. I mean, a lot of times, you know, you hear is an excuse of what could be for anything, not only professional development, you know, I can’t find the time and I always try to push back that you’re never gonna find the time you’re going to have to make it. So that’s exactly consistent with what you’re saying, two hours a week on your own schedule, as well as two hours a week on, on the schedule for everyone who works for you devoted to professional development.

[00:41:21.41] spk_3:
And that time is flexible like some of my workers are reading leadership books. Some of my workers are doing independent trailheads on sales force. Other people are like reinforcing things that they’ve been practicing on the job. Other people are collaborating with other people on the team who now have time on their calendar for collaboration. So, but just making the time, let the desired outcome have a place to flourish.

[00:41:29.11] spk_1:
What if we get um pushback from above? I mean, maybe they’re just not, not just reluctant but unwilling to let someone devote an hour a week or two hours a week to professional development. What are, what are like? I don’t know. Are there some talking points? We

[00:42:04.88] spk_3:
can? Yes, so we can start with the economics. Okay. If we have to send somebody to away training with airplanes and hotel rooms for one person to go or we can use the built in salary time to keep people in house and learning as a cost savings. It’s thousands of dollars.

[00:42:14.76] spk_1:
Okay. Very good. Right. Travel, accommodations, conference fees, etcetera. Okay. Okay. Um, anything else any other way to push back against our unwilling? See, sweet person

[00:42:45.26] spk_3:
also when we are doing in house development, we are more likely to align our training with what’s happening on the ground with our company. When we’re on the ground floor, we’re literally looking at improvements that we’re seeing every day in the company. Sometimes when we go away for the conferences, we get the big ideas and try to have to retrofit them to what our culture is. And so this way, if we start with the training internally, the learning is built around our culture. That

[00:43:30.47] spk_1:
makes perfect sense. Yeah. And it’s also going to be built around what we’re engaged in because we’re doing it weekly. So I guess we’re more likely to look for development that is consistent with what we’re maybe challenged with, you know, this month, this week or this month or this quarter. Versus as you said, putting the putting the broad strokes from a conference, you know, trying to squeeze your work into it. Okay, perfect. So um anything else you want to share about having, having time making time? So

[00:44:25.19] spk_3:
even in our personal life, because not all professional development is going to the job, sometimes that professional development is going for you to improve your confidence, to improve your skill level, to make you more dynamic for the dynamic job market. You know, and with that case, when we look at our entertainment time, let’s make sure that our entertainment is actually filling us up, there’s a lot of negative television. And so if your entertainment is not filled and you up maybe take one of those one hours from Netflix and chill and put into some professional development um during the pandemic with all the turmoil, one of the things I did when I couldn’t sleep at night was going to Microsoft Learn and just the raw technical documentation. Calm my mind. Let me know things were okay and I learned so much afterwards.

[00:45:00.73] spk_1:
Okay. Use your time wisely. Uh listeners. You may hear the nonprofit technology conference. It’s the opening keynote. There’s a lot of, a lot of audience raucousness in the background. But uh non profit radio perseveres nonetheless, just letting you know what you’re hearing in the background, we’re all on the exhibit floor together along with the uh the, the keynote audience this morning. Um Kalinda, let’s talk about um free resources. I love having free resources for listeners.

[00:45:34.94] spk_3:
Yes. So when I was getting my master’s degree in my small New York family apartment, I didn’t have a desk. So I used the ironing board and I got a whole master’s degree with a four point oh G P A from an ironing board. We must not be discouraged if we don’t have the latest greatest resources, what we have can get us very far. When my arning board was up, my family knew I was in study time and they left me alone when the iron board was down. It was family time resources that I got was

[00:45:43.14] spk_1:
able to. Were you able to fit a chair into your ironing board or you did your studying standing?

[00:46:37.46] spk_3:
So it was a standing desk at times and I did have a folding chair from the card table. And um free resources I used, I Lincoln learning is being offered by a lot of public libraries with your local library card. Once you register with your library card, you get the full breath of Lincoln learning and with the registration, your certificates for completion will have your name on it, which can be used as continuing education at your job. Another free resource is the library. My local library is the children’s library, but they do take book orders so I can look at the full library catalog and have technical books shipped to my children’s library for me to pick them up. Other free resources are um

[00:46:41.70] spk_1:
that’s a great one. By the way, I think, I think a lot of folks have forgotten about their local library.

[00:47:16.00] spk_3:
Yes. And many libraries have a complete schedule on their website, offering different hands on trainings for computer skills, resume writing and you can go to many of these free things and all is needed is your library membership. Other free resources that I have used is many of the major manufacturers like salesforce linkedin Google have a very robust free training for their technology on their website. Many of those websites do have a badge system. So if you would like to do metrics for your employees as a recommendation, you could do like oh in this time period, I want you to have 500 badges or 500 points. So there is still a way to track the free learning.

[00:47:33.90] spk_1:
Okay. Any other free resources,

[00:47:48.09] spk_3:
other free resources is when you’re on your manufacturer website for different skills. Um Places like Microsoft Google Salesforce, they offer challenges. If you can do a certain amount of self paced learning in a certain time, you will receive a free voucher to take their certification exam. And during the pandemic, I was able to become Salesforce certified for a grand total of $45 by using one of these challenges.

[00:48:09.94] spk_1:
What about the linkedin learning? What kind of topics can folks find their around professional development?

[00:49:03.14] spk_3:
So linkedin Learning has an amazing breath of information. They have products like learn Adobe Photoshop, they do have professional management skills like time management um leading from the top, they have different introductory course work on cloud computing and you get interesting information on the breath of the subject to see if you’re interested in the topic before you invest. So linkedin Learning is a great way to get um uh 11 distinct skill or to learn the breath of a topic to see if you would like to go for a more formalized information in that topic. So this way you can go and do five training videos on cloud computing before you sign up for a graduate certificate.

[00:49:12.11] spk_1:
Okay? And all free, all free. So when you said invest, invest time, yes,

[00:49:43.58] spk_3:
we’re investing time. So the first thing we can do that’s available to everybody is we invest the time and then we’ll invest the minimum resources. You can become a Google certified educator for $15 you know. And so there are entryways into technology and other industries that do have a low cost entry point. And these are the places where we explore and a lot of times when you can show commitment and self initiative and you can present how this is going to grow your position at your company. It’s then easier to come back and get funding from your job placement. All

[00:50:00.37] spk_1:
valuable. Okay. Yeah, you make the right. You can make the case so much stronger. Alright. Um Anything else about free resources before we move on?

[00:50:28.27] spk_3:
Um free resources change at all times, so always be on the lookout. Um I have a podcast um study hall with Kalinda the tech and I also have sorry, my podcast to study hall with Kalinda the Tech. And I also have an Instagram at Kalinda the Tech and on there, I post some of the free resources as I come by them. So follow technology leaders who are offering you these tips and always be on the lookout in your free newspaper and your local library for resources as they come by.

[00:50:47.72] spk_1:
And let’s move to um sharing. We have a responsibility you believe, to share what we learn.

[00:51:33.44] spk_3:
Yes. The first thing to do is if you learn something, let your job. No, you know, most hr departments are putting together in internal repository, what type of knowledge they have in their company like I said in the beginning, nobody was interested in my Google certification pre pandemic. But because it was on file with, hr they knew they had internal learning that they could tap when the time was right. Also letting people know what you’re studying because there’s people who are studying in silos and you can become a study buddy. Another thing is when you share what you’re learning, it encourages people around you. Um every day somebody is watching your life, a child, a neighbor, uh business partner, you have a community person that you shop with and when you show growth and change, it gives them hope that they can also have growth and change.

[00:52:01.13] spk_1:
Yes. All right. Um What about mentoring is that is that related to professional development? Having a mentor, mentoring? If you are more senior like you are, yes, you see a role in around mentoring for professional

[00:53:03.64] spk_3:
development. Yes, mentoring does um definitely help and have a place in professional development. But what mentees need to know is they’re going to have to do the work to drive the relationship. So when you show up for your mentor session, you need to come with direct questions, you need to come with focused thought. And if you are given task tools or recommendations, make sure you follow through and report back. Um Mentors generally are at a place in their life where their time is being called in different directions. So entering a mentee relationship thinking that you’re speaking to an oracle that’s going to give you all the answers with a magic wand is the wrong approach. So, entering the mentee, mentor relationship as a mentee, come prepared, come focus and be prepared to work.

[00:53:13.35] spk_1:
What do you see as the mentors responsibilities?

[00:53:42.46] spk_3:
The mentors responsibility is to let them know that they have to be their first advocate that you have to have a direction. And I’m here as a guide and that my blueprint as a mentor came in a distinct time and place in history. So what worked for me might not actually work for you if you’re looking at my life as an exact blueprint, but I do have guiding principles that can help you in any time and place. It sounds like

[00:54:01.19] spk_1:
you’ve done mentoring, formal mentoring. Um any story you can you care to share about mentoring, maybe, maybe something you learned as a mentor or of course a great outcome for a mentee. And

[00:55:24.99] spk_3:
so the thing is we have stories. So the thing is when I started my career way back in 2001 black women in technology, technology leadership was not what I saw. There was nobody like looking like me in the corner office. So my first mentors were black women in the secretary pool. And what they offered me was a deep dive lesson in the company culture, letting me know who the movers and players were explaining the fiscal calendar to me knowing when would be the appropriate time to ask for a raise when people would be having money discussions. And so when we’re looking for mentorship, we have to realize there’s a lot of breath of life experience as well as technical experience that can be shared in these relationships. One of my mentors that was invaluable was a professional woman who had a um personal tragedy in her life. And like what she shared with me was how to grieve on your lunch break, fix your makeup and go back into a board meeting. You know,

[00:55:25.92] spk_1:
that’s, that’s touching and sweet and also enormously practical and

[00:56:39.75] spk_3:
valuable because people are introducing the bring your whole self to work mantra, but not all companies are there. So having mentorship like that about how to read a room, how to understand my company culture is great. I recently had a summer intern that I was mentoring with my company. We offer internships for many of the people in New York City through the summer youth employment program. And so we’re working with young people all the time at the first steps of their careers through internship. And one of the things I remind my intern was when looking for a job, please understand you cannot work for a company without participating in their culture. And he had a secondary internship for the fall and he relayed back to me. Thank you so much for the advice, all the interns who skipped the social gatherings over the summer were not offered full time jobs for after graduation. Um Because at these social gatherings, they were able to meet people throughout the whole company and different departments hire at different times versus being at your internship in one department, not realizing what’s going on with the rest of the company.

[00:57:19.89] spk_1:
Also, the social time is just an opportunity to get to know somebody in a, in a wider breath. You know, I think a lot of hiring is, is this somebody I’d like to have lunch with, you know, that I could socialize with there may or may not be that opportunity once you’re hired. But is it somebody, you know, basically like somebody I like and they’ll get to figure out that they like you if they can see more of you than just your work self.

[00:57:44.89] spk_3:
Yes. And this is the great time to bring up the professional development you’ve been doing that is outside the scope of your every day, you know, this is where, oh, we’re talking about this over the pool table. Oh, I just was taking a geology class online, you know, this fits in so well with that, it just gives you more organic conversations to talk about the things you’re interested in, the things you’re pursuing?

[00:57:53.84] spk_1:
Alright, Kalinda, anything else that you want to share about professional development that we haven’t talked about yet? And you’re gonna, I don’t, I don’t want to shortchange non profit radio listeners. So anything you’re going to cover in the session tomorrow that we haven’t talked about.

[00:58:22.01] spk_3:
So I would also like you to remember that all professional development doesn’t have to be formalized. You know, even taking time to listen to a book on tape that gives you three new ideas or changes your mindset. So you walk into work happier, more fulfilled is also valuable. So not all professional development is going to take a semester long. It could just be a nice beach read in the summer one that includes a professional leadership book

[00:58:57.15] spk_1:
and you know, you should, you should share your professional development formally. Also, I’m sure you said this earlier, but I’m just kind of reinforcing for myself. You want your supervisors to know how you’re spending your professional development time. Yes. What you’ve achieved certificates or even just learning, just learning that maybe not doesn’t come with a certificate. Yes.

[01:00:19.78] spk_3:
And you definitely, it’s always great to let people know what you’re working on, what ideas you’re like, brainstorming that you can bring to the company. And these are like at the water cooler during your official Super Vision’s setting your goal sets for the year. These are all great times to talk about it and self promotion could be self advocacy. So we are not being Braggarts, we’re sharing the information we have so we can be a resource. That’s why I’m telling you that I have a master’s degree that’s why I’m telling you what I’m certified in. So I can be a resource. Like my whole goal is to learn and give back and change my community. Like when I learned that we can do free cover letters in Google and they have a whole online training, teaching you the Google products based on a cover letter. This is going to totally help my neighbor who can’t invest in a $2000 employment coach being advertised on linkedin.

[01:00:50.37] spk_1:
You make a very good point too about self promotion. So many folks are, you know, fearful of that, they feel they are bragging like you said, and it’s not you, you position it very well to say, you know, you’re positioning yourself as a resource to the, to the organization, to your superiors, to your peers, to not only your supervisors, but, um, it’s unfortunate that so many folks are hesitant to talk themselves

[01:00:56.16] spk_3:
up. Yes. And this is where like a good leadership book can help you to help you refine that mindset. You know, in the classroom, we’re not supposed to talk about grades, you know, we’re supposed to keep them secret. We don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings. But like that mindset doesn’t necessarily work in the work force.

[01:01:43.20] spk_1:
There’s a session here at N T C and I’m interviewing the woman who’s running it about having a powerful voice. What is like, what is voice for power, something like that? I’m talking to her later today. That’s just 11 instance of uh I guess building confidence, you know, sounding confident exudes confidence may be trembling inside, but can you at least sound confident? Yes.

[01:01:45.57] spk_3:
And the thing is it’s much easier to access your confidence when you understand your purpose.

[01:01:53.91] spk_1:
Oh, very good. Spell that out a little. That’s excellent.

[01:02:41.13] spk_3:
So for me, I am a messenger and it is my job to get the message out. Public speaking wasn’t my first choice but public speaking and doing panels at places like N T C allows me to get this much needed information out. There are so many people in these current times who just can’t invest a $10,000 cash payment into a boot camp to change their life. But there are entry point for the free level, the linkedin learning level, the $15 cert certificate level that can get you on the path of change. And those are the messages that I have to get out because my purpose is being a messenger. It’s not being a know it all. It’s not being a brag ID. It’s being a messenger to change people’s lives. And when I know this is my purpose, it’s so much easier to get up and talk on this radio show, to do these panels, to get on the plane and go across the country to have these conversations. Because I know my message is so valuable to my community.

[01:03:26.56] spk_1:
I feel like it’s a perfect place to stop. It’s beautiful. Thank you, Kalinda Alan James, assistant vice president for Information Technology at a common point queens. And she did come across the country. She came from New York to Denver, Colorado and her podcast is study hall with Kalinda the Tech. Alright, thank you very much, Kalinda. Thanks for sharing. Loved it. And thank you for being with our coverage of 23 N T C the nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Thanks for being with us

[01:04:44.77] spk_0:
next week, Artificial Intelligence for nonprofits with an esteemed panel, Beth Kanter Allison. Fine, a few Bruce and George Whiner. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Donor Box. I’m grateful to Donor Box with intuitive fundraising software. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for October 10, 2022: The Smart Nonprofit

 

Beth Kanter & Allison Fine: The Smart Nonprofit

That’s Beth Kanter and Allison Fine’s new book, revealing the potential of smart technology and artificial intelligence for your nonprofit, and the entire sector. Beth and Allison are with us to share their thinking.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:44.94] spk_0:
Oh, I neglected to mention, you hear me, you hear me do an intro to the show and then we’ll chat uninterrupted and then I’ll do the outro and then I could say goodbye Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of infra occlusion if you made me chew on the idea that you missed this week’s show. The smart non profit That’s Beth Canter and Alison finds new book revealing the potential of smart technology and artificial intelligence for your nonprofit and the entire sector.

[00:00:56.53] spk_1:
Beth

[00:00:56.87] spk_0:
and Allison are with us to share their

[00:00:58.74] spk_1:
thinking

[00:01:28.01] spk_0:
on Tony’s take to debunk those top five myths of planned giving, sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[00:01:32.30] spk_1:
What

[00:01:32.54] spk_0:
a pleasure to welcome

[00:01:33.29] spk_1:
back

[00:01:41.59] spk_0:
Beth Kanter and Allison Fine to the show. Both been on multiple times, although you know them uh they they they each deserve their own special

[00:01:47.79] spk_1:
introduction.

[00:01:49.33] spk_0:
Beth Kanter is an internationally recognized thought leader and trainer in digital transformation and well being in the nonprofit

[00:01:56.46] spk_1:
workplace.

[00:01:57.94] spk_0:
She was named one of the most influential women in technology by fast company and received the N 10 Lifetime achievement

[00:02:04.82] spk_1:
award.

[00:02:05.48] spk_0:
She’s at Beth Kanter and

[00:02:08.97] spk_1:
Beth

[00:02:30.78] spk_0:
Kanter dot org. Alison Fine is among the nation’s preeminent writers and strategists on the use of technology for social good. She’s a member of the National Board of Women of Reform Judaism and was chair of the National Board of Naral Pro Choice America Foundation and a founding board member of Civic Hall. Allison is at a Fine and Alison Fine dot

[00:02:34.94] spk_1:
com.

[00:02:36.18] spk_0:
Bethan Alison welcome back to nonprofit radio

[00:02:40.69] spk_1:
Thank you for having us. tony

[00:02:43.75] spk_0:
congratulations on the book.

[00:02:47.60] spk_1:
It’s very exciting. The response has been tremendous so far.

[00:02:52.45] spk_2:
So both of our 4th book and 2nd collaboration together.

[00:02:56.91] spk_1:
Second,

[00:03:20.05] spk_0:
yes, you’ve co authored the network non profit if I’m not mistaken. Alright and fourth book for both of you. Congratulations all around. I would actually like to start with the last sentence of the book. If every nonprofit in the sector can transform itself into a smart non profit we can transform the world end quote. Uh does anybody want to claim authorship of that particular sentence? Is it possible for co authors to remember who wrote each each sentence throughout the

[00:03:28.19] spk_1:
book?

[00:03:29.76] spk_0:
Not, no,

[00:03:31.30] spk_1:
not possible, but so

[00:03:33.14] spk_0:
then All right, Allison, what what uh what does it take to become this uh ideal. Smart non profit

[00:04:33.67] spk_1:
So a smart non profit tony is an organization that understands deeply how to stay human centered and by that we mean putting people first, internally and externally using the most advanced technology organizations have ever had at their disposal. This this, you know um family of technologies like ai machine learning robots and so on and by doing that tony we can stop the incredible hamster wheel of business frantic business of organizations just playing a daily game of whack a mole with email and telephone and ongoing meetings. All of that road work can be done by the technology, freeing up people to build relationships and tell stories and build communities and solve problems and do the deeply human work that most of us came to the sector to do in the first place.

[00:04:45.71] spk_0:
And you you used the word business that was not business, that was business

[00:04:52.15] spk_1:
in the U.

[00:05:08.43] spk_0:
S. Y. Yes. Okay. Um Alright. So there are many uh considerations for becoming a smart nonprofit and some some important roles of leadership that that come out in the book. Um Beth anything you would like to add to the to the intro to our conversation.

[00:05:25.86] spk_2:
Um Sure. What Allison laid out so beautifully is the key benefit of that nonprofits get from embracing this technology and that is the dividend of time and that time can be reinvested either in building better relationships with donors or or clients or stakeholders or also could be reinvested in the staff to free up time. So we’re not. So as you said, the busy work takes up a lot of time but it also takes up a lot of cognitive overload and maybe if we had more spaciousness we would be less exhausted. Um and and more inspired and less burnout.

[00:06:15.66] spk_0:
Yeah the that that dividend of time is throughout the book. And uh well except that hypothesis for now I have I have I have some questions about that, some little skepticism about that, but for now we’ll accept that the dividend of time will indeed accrue to people who work in in in smart nonprofits and to to the to the organization generally. Um Are

[00:06:18.75] spk_1:
you skeptical that it can be created or are you skeptical that people will know what to do with it once they created it? No,

[00:06:27.95] spk_0:
well I don’t wanna I don’t I don’t want to challenge right off the bat but

[00:06:33.36] spk_1:
uh

[00:06:52.52] spk_0:
skepticism that that it that it can be realized. Not not that people will know what to do if it does get realized, but um yeah well let’s come back to it, let’s leave the hypothesis uh as as as perfectly fair and and uh something to truly aspire to because there are as you say, and as you lay out mostly in the last chapter, um there are great places that the sector can go when we realize this uh this dividend of time. Um

[00:07:10.37] spk_1:
let’s

[00:07:19.93] spk_0:
talk a little about, you know, some of these elements of being a smart non profit Um beth let’s stay with you for you know, human centered. What what do you what do you all mean by by that?

[00:08:00.23] spk_2:
Well I guess we use another term in the book um called co batting and really with that I like that because it’s like figuring out what the machines can do best. Right that the automation technology there’s certain tasks that the technology is really good at doing. And those are things like analyzing large amounts of data and automating kind of rote tasks. But there are there’s stuff in our jobs that humans should do and always do. And that is the relationship building, taking the donors out to lunch. Like you were telling us you took a donor out to a nice restaurant recently. You know that’s not something the automation is going to do for you. Um and being creative having empathy, making intuitive decisions. And so when we use this technology leaders really need to understand like what is the right workflow and always keep humans in

[00:08:19.06] spk_1:
charge?

[00:08:21.28] spk_0:
What what’s the what’s the

[00:08:25.05] spk_1:
how

[00:08:25.33] spk_0:
can we how can we make sure that we center humans in in adopting this this smart technology?

[00:09:29.83] spk_2:
Well I think the first step is to ask to talk to them and get their feedback and their input in before you even like grab the software off the shop? It’s not about that at all. Um you really have to start with. Um you know, what are the points of pain? What are the exquisite pain points that we want to address by adopting this technology and getting feedback from the end user’s whether that staff clients donors and then, um, setting up a, you know, an understanding of what the journey is, what the workflow is and where you divide things. And then you begin to go look at software tools and uh, and and find vendors that are aligned with your values and once you’ve, or technologists that are aligned with your values and then once you’ve done that, you can begin to start with pilots and uh, an iteration on it before you get to scale. This is so different tony than social media, which both Allison and I have talked to about where we’re encouraging people to just jump in experiment fail fast. What we’re saying with this technology is that it’s really important to, um, to go slowly and to be knowledgeable and reflective about it.

[00:09:53.74] spk_0:
And reflective. Yes, reflective is, uh, something else I wanted to ask about. So what you read my mind fantastic being reflective Alison, what is why, what’s that attribute about for the, for the smart non profit

[00:11:37.25] spk_1:
So this is, um, something I’m deeply passionate about tony Um, I don’t know if, you know, I had a first career as a program evaluator and uh, it’s very, very difficult to get, particularly smaller nonprofits who are so busy and so under resourced to take a step back and not only think about how is what they’re doing, Getting them closer to the results that they want to do, but how can they improve over time and we need them to understand not only the human centeredness that beth just spot on, you know, outlined, but in particular tony how are we making people feel internally and externally about our efforts? Are we making people feel seen and known and heard or and this is particularly important when we talk about smart tech, do you feel like a data point, just you know, a cog in large machinery? Um that’s just getting lost um and we know that feels terrible, everybody has experiences of feeling being made to feel small by organizations and nothing is more important in our work, particularly in the social service and human service areas of making people feel known and heard and yet it is just the sticking point for the sector that it is the thing that gets left off and again we’re back to the business of work, so we want people to be reflective of. Is this the right technology, are you solving that exquisite pain point that you had? How are you making people feel when machines are now doing what only people could do until just a few years ago, you know, through smart tack and is it solving the problems that you set out to solve?

[00:12:00.50] spk_0:
Uh Yeah, I I admired that idea of, of reflective because you know, it’s it’s closely related as you said to being human centered uh you know, thoughtfulness um and it goes to like preparation to um it

[00:12:23.51] spk_1:
also goes to leadership right? You have to have a leadership within an organization that isn’t so brittle that they are open to learning about how to improve and there are too many organizations that are so fearful of being seen as not doing something well that they won’t openly and wholeheartedly be reflective about their activities.

[00:12:42.57] spk_2:
And it’s also about the culture too, and we’ve used this word a lot dizziness and when we have a culture of business and people are multitasking and there’s back to back meetings. They don’t have that space to be reflective. So um and and that’s so required to um to make the changes that you just read about the last line of our book, you know, to get to that place

[00:13:23.79] spk_0:
and we’re gonna talk some about the leadership. Uh you talk about being trustworthy and empathetic, we’ll we’ll we’ll get there. Um Another, another attribute you you mentioned um beth is being knowledgeable, knowledgeable about the tech and I think it’s limits too. But what would you you say it you’ll say it more eloquently than I will.

[00:13:33.54] spk_1:
I

[00:13:33.74] spk_2:
think we can both say that both Alice and I can say both eloquently, but I’ll kick off with um when we say knowledgeable and we’re and we’re saying this to leaders, we’re not saying that you need to know how to code. Um you know, roll up your sleeves and write the code but you need to understand um

[00:13:51.97] spk_1:
what goes

[00:13:57.94] spk_2:
into the code and whether it’s biased um the data sets it’s been trained on and you need most of the time. A lot of leaders in the nonprofit sector when it comes to technology it’s kind of push back, you know sent down the hall to the I. T. Department and we’re really asking leaders to lead in because there’s you know potential challenges which Allison is really great at explaining.

[00:14:16.56] spk_1:
Alright

[00:14:18.19] spk_0:
well Alison explain those but then maybe you can tell us a story too about

[00:14:22.12] spk_1:
uh

[00:14:22.80] spk_0:
about like the degree to which a leader needs to be knowledgeable.

[00:15:38.16] spk_1:
Uh So we’re talking about um this family of technologies tony that is very quickly becoming embedded in every single part of organizational life. Right? This is not a you know fundraising software, smart tech is going to be embedded in the finances and the back office and the coms and development and everything. And the idea of having machines automatically paid for things or screen resumes or screen people for services is a fundamental shift in who is doing work and how it’s being done. Right? So when you understand that premise, you have to have the C suite leaning into this to underst and what it means when your staff is doing different things than they used to do and when people on the outside are engaging with machines instead of people, these are fundamental shifts. So one area. Um Well too I just mentioned that are so important is if you are automating the screening of resumes, then the assumptions that some programmer put into that system and the resumes that were used to test it for looking for certain kinds of employees with certain kinds of skills are going to be biased. I can tell you that right now, right. They are going to have a bias. And largely that bias is going to be against, you know, people who are black and brown or or women.

[00:15:57.35] spk_0:
It’s gonna be in favor of white men.

[00:16:40.39] spk_1:
Exactly. Because that is what employment looks like. Those are the questions we use those are the expectations that we have and the programming was done most likely by a white man. Um So if you don’t know what to ask. The creator of that software that you’ve just bought that is going to quote save you a ton of time looking at resumes. Um but also screen out um people of color and women then you’ve just an incredible disservice to your organization and the same if you are providing housing services or food services to people in need, the same kinds of biases are going to be found in these systems, right? This is a systems problem. And that’s why as Beth was saying, this is not a technical problem. This is not something where you say go I. T. Guys go find us a good product. You know, they’re not looking out for your organization’s interest in equity. That’s what leadership is for right, setting those moral standards, setting that compass and making sure that your values are aligned in everything you do and how you do it as an organization.

[00:17:59.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You both are very clear in the book that this is a leadership issue, not a technology issue. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They have another interesting newsletter this week advocating for the use of cliches. Their argument is that cliches shouldn’t be ruled out entirely but used judiciously. Like not don’t go overboard either. Whatever you think about cliches, my point is they’re thinking about them. They’re thinking about how best to communicate your story because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to the Smart non profit any any stories, can we can we tell a story at this point? Alison

[00:18:23.00] spk_1:
sure there are, there are social services agencies around the country um that we’re using smart tech systems to provide um food assistance. And only after the system had been in place for several years. tony did they find out that it was literally leaving out black people from the system. In the opening chapter of our book, we talked about a screening tool called V. I. Speed at uh

[00:18:39.80] spk_0:
three times.

[00:18:40.55] spk_1:
I

[00:18:42.50] spk_0:
just kept saying it. V. I. S. P. D. D. Yeah.

[00:18:50.81] spk_1:
Yeah the I stood at that was programmed by um why white man with very good intentions that unintentionally was leaving black people out of getting priority housing in hundreds of communities around the world, four years before the social workers finally got heard saying, we know this tool doesn’t work on the ground, we’re using. It, it is not screening people correctly because the questions were biased against people of color who have so much trouble getting into public systems.

[00:19:32.89] spk_0:
You you have three caveats sort of that that you uh you make very clear and bias is one of them. So we’re just talking about that um responsible use is another another of the three beth can you can you talk to uh what you’re thinking about responsible use and sort of thinking through problems?

[00:19:59.01] spk_2:
Um Sure. Uh it’s kind of like taking a Hippocratic oath that you will do no harm. Right? So the example that Alison just laid out, obviously there was harm done by keeping people screening people out for important services. Um so so it it who’s um non profits to do uh something that we call threat modeling? I know it’s a big scary term and word and it comes from the internet cybersecurity but

[00:20:11.51] spk_0:
didn’t frighten me.

[00:20:17.94] spk_2:
Okay, well it might frighten some people we have had that reaction, um but it’s just basically

[00:20:19.33] spk_0:
not profit radio It’s very savvy listeners here.

[00:20:21.72] spk_2:
Absolutely,

[00:20:23.24] spk_0:
this is this is a higher echelon audience than you’re

[00:20:25.77] spk_2:
right, of course, your

[00:20:26.90] spk_0:
other podcast. So please

[00:20:28.49] spk_2:
threat

[00:20:29.80] spk_0:
modeling is not intimidating to us.

[00:20:31.51] spk_2:
Okay, so threat modeling is actually having a brainstorm of all the possible things that could go

[00:20:36.33] spk_1:
wrong.

[00:20:42.33] spk_2:
Um if you uh implement this technology um what what harm could be done to the end user um if they if they were given um let’s say you have a buy right? And in fact the Trevor project is an example of an organization that did this threat modeling. They wanted to they had a problem. Um they had, you’re familiar with the Trevor project,

[00:21:02.88] spk_0:
explain, explain what what

[00:21:04.80] spk_2:
okay, so they provide uh

[00:21:07.10] spk_0:
counseling

[00:21:23.42] spk_2:
to yes to L. B. G. T. Q. Youth, you know through text and online phone, if you will. And so they’re dealing with kids who are in crisis and a whole, you know, um continuum of issues and they have councilors that there who are volunteers but they’re trained in this very specific, very sensitive type of counseling, especially when young people are coming to them in crisis. And so um so the problem was, you know, they needed to scale um and get more counselors in there so they could help more clients. And so they decided that they wanted to use a bot,

[00:21:44.37] spk_1:
which

[00:22:33.01] spk_2:
is, you know, automated response. We’re all familiar with thoughts, you know, buy a pair of sneakers online or trying to make a doctor’s appointment and you encounter a bot. And so rather than replace the counselors on the front line with this technology that won’t be human center, it could be potentially dangerous. Um especially with a sophisticated self learning bot, which could learn through, you know, and learn through interactions and say the wrong things and that could be devastating to an end user who’s in crisis. But what they decided to do was to use the bot for training simulations. So they took data from real conversation, stripping all privacy information and they use this to train their bot, which was a highly sophisticated software that was self learning. But they said that this spot will not be on the front lines with anybody, will only interact with um for training simulations. So what this did was free up a lot of time from the staff in terms of delivering trainings to more quality control. So they were able to get more counselors on the front

[00:22:51.82] spk_1:
line, so

[00:23:01.15] spk_2:
it’s an example of being human centered, but it’s also an example of that dividend of time and and repurposing it um and also uh making sure, you know, so it’s doing no harm. Yeah,

[00:23:15.16] spk_0:
and that and that responsible use. Okay, okay. Um the other the other caveat you have, so you have, you have three caveats bias, responsible use and privacy. Talking about ethical standards who’s uh, who’s who’s most interested in talking about privacy Allison Fine, raised their hand first.

[00:25:08.25] spk_1:
Yes, I did. Um so this is not a new issue, right, We’ve been dealing with digital privacy um for a long time, but as a sector haven’t really ever gotten our arms around it. tony right in that we has a sector have just subscribed to. I think we think the lowest expectations from the commercial side, which is you try to get as much personal data as you can write. You ask for those emails and you leave. You might let somebody unsubscribe from a newsletter, but you don’t delete their emails. Right? And a much, much more ethical model we feel is in the european union, the G D P R. I can’t remember what that stands for. But the idea is that, um, the people, the consumers, constituents, donors, volunteers are in charge of their data and they get to tell us how they want to be engaged with us, right? They get to tell us that they want to be forgotten entirely from our systems. They don’t want to be on any of our list. They don’t want to be in our systems. And that flipping over of the model we think is very in keeping with being human centered, right? It’s very in keeping with the values that we’re trying to, uh, in view in this whole concept of smart nonprofits, right? That we shouldn’t fear, um, asking people what the value we provide to them is. Right. Do we brought enough value in having their email for them to want to stay with us or are we just turning through again, as we said in the beginning, turning them through systems like the cogs in a great big machinery. So we think the smart tech is going to generate even more data than the last 10 years of digital tech, which is astonishing to think about kind of mind blowing to think about

[00:25:18.86] spk_0:
Because I think didn’t you cite 90 90% of the data that we have is in the past two years?

[00:25:34.41] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. It is remarkable to explode. And so we need to be, we need to raise the bar on our ethical considerations on the use of data and the relationship that we have with our constituents. They need to trust us more. The fact that the nonprofit sector along with other sectors, the degree of trust is going down. tony is, is not good and we ought to hold ourselves to higher standards of privacy and data protection.

[00:26:52.20] spk_0:
Two weeks ago, Gene Takagi and I talked about that exact subject in a show that I called in nonprofits do we trust? It was just, it was just two weeks ago. It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies, your tech is an investment invest wisely. What’s the state of your office infrastructure? Should you give remote or hybrid employees tech allowances or just give them the equipment outright or both or neither. How’s your disaster recovery plan? How’s your backup working? four D. Can help you with all these investment decisions, check the listener landing page tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But you know they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to the smart non profit Do we know what the impact has been on, on business? Uh,

[00:27:02.62] spk_1:
coming

[00:27:13.65] spk_0:
out of the G D P R has, it, has it had the devastating effect on business that the business community in europe was, was claiming when they were, uh, lobbying against it or trying to, you know, trying to weaken it. Do we, do we know I’m putting you on the spot. Do either of you know, whether that’s had such a devastating impact on european business?

[00:27:25.95] spk_1:
It’s been fine. And, and look, companies, commercial companies here have had to put, uh, more effort into privacy issues when they do work in the european

[00:27:37.36] spk_0:
union,

[00:27:40.59] spk_1:
you know,

[00:27:40.96] spk_0:
California

[00:27:41.82] spk_1:
for Nya are holding people to the same standards now. Um, but it hasn’t had a huge negative impact on business,

[00:27:50.70] spk_0:
you know,

[00:27:51.44] spk_1:
it’s fine.

[00:28:01.23] spk_0:
Okay, okay, now this, this smart tech artificial intelligence we’re talking about, this is widely used commercially, Right? I mean, isn’t this, I don’t know, fundamental to amazon google the 24 hour chatbots that beth mentioned, you know, you see a little about 24 7, the likelihood of that being a live person at four in the morning is very, very small. This, this is, this is ubiquitous in the commercial sector,

[00:28:22.79] spk_1:
isn’t it?

[00:28:23.82] spk_2:
Yes, it is, but I think we’re at this point um, uh, Allison likes to call it the heel of the hockey stick where it’s going to the cross of this technology has come down. It’s becoming democratized and it’s becoming more accessible to non profits of all sizes.

[00:28:41.29] spk_0:
You

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
don’t have to be nasa to use this.

[00:28:51.56] spk_0:
All right. Now to keep yourself out of jargon jail. You’re gonna have to explain the, uh, the hockey stick on a graph metaphor. So go ahead, tell us what X and Y are and why it looks like a

[00:28:54.63] spk_1:
hockey stick.

[00:28:55.50] spk_2:
Okay. It’s okay. So imagine a hockey stick, right. Or I should do it this way. I’m looking at my

[00:29:02.71] spk_0:
nobody can, nobody can see your hands, but we all know what

[00:29:04.91] spk_2:
happened, but

[00:29:05.98] spk_0:
not sophisticated enough to know what hockey sticks.

[00:29:20.11] spk_2:
It basically shows. And this happens with technology. Um, is that, you know, early adopters use it because it’s very expensive, experimental. It’s unproven. And as it, the technology improve and the cost comes down and it becomes more accessible to consumers and small businesses into organizations. The adoption rate starts to skyrocket. So it goes up. So you see sort of a flat line and then a steep hill or steep mountain increase in

[00:29:35.49] spk_0:
X’s time. And why is technology adoption?

[00:29:39.42] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:29:40.76] spk_0:
Yeah. You’re better at

[00:29:41.91] spk_2:
charts than I am.

[00:29:43.65] spk_0:
Okay, well, you, you, you invoked the metaphor of the hockey stick. You gotta, you gotta be able to stand behind it now.

[00:29:48.41] spk_2:
Oh, I guess I guess I should.

[00:29:50.13] spk_0:
All right. All right.

[00:30:31.21] spk_1:
It’s not just nonprofits adopting this now. tony I would say that it’s all medium and small sized organizations in every sector that now has available to them, technology that they couldn’t afford just a few years ago. And that’s, that’s what the difference is. The technology is a brand new, it’s just become very affordable for smaller organizations. However, as I mentioned before, just because it’s available and just because it’s affordable, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right stuff to grab off the shelf. And that’s the part that’s that’s the impetus for us to write this book. You need to know what you’re grabbing and using, Yeah,

[00:30:42.60] spk_0:
the availability to small and midsize shops, I think is through is throughout your book. Um, let’s tell another good story. The one with the, uh, uh, the repurposing of the school bus routes to deliver food instead of drop off Children during the pandemic because Children were no longer going to school. So they repurposed school busses to drop

[00:30:55.43] spk_1:
off meals.

[00:30:57.87] spk_0:
Who knows that story best.

[00:30:59.76] spk_2:
Yeah. So, you’re, you’re talking about research at Carnegie Mellon University and you’re talking about Pittsburgh school system and

[00:31:07.96] spk_0:
Pittsburgh school system.

[00:32:38.23] spk_2:
United Pittsburgh school district or whatever it’s called. Um, so this was at the very beginning of the pandemic when we were in the shutdown and um, and kids that are in schools that are in poorer areas relied on the school lunch program to get their meals right. And so if schools were shut down and, and, and students were tele community, there’s no way to get this food. So they used a machine learning algorithm to re engineer the must routes to take the food to the kids in the most efficient way. It’s really interesting how during the pandemic, you know, there was a little bit of a silver lining. I know it’s awful. But there was a silver lining for some nonprofits to really push and to innovate. And I think food banks in a way we’re forced to do this. Um, there’s another example in boston of the boston food bank completely automating its inventory and it’s stocking to become a lot more efficient. And at one point they even were experimenting with having robots come in and stock the shelves because most of the food banks, volunteers are older and they were told not, you know, during the very early part of the pandemic, not to, you know, come in because it could be dangerous to their health. Um, and that’s also a great kind of idea story, use scenario to think about to do the threat modeling that we were talking about earlier. So let’s just say for example, food banks. So let’s let’s bring in the robots and have

[00:32:38.99] spk_1:
them stock

[00:32:40.47] spk_2:
the shelves, you know, so, but you also have to think about that volunteers who are coming in, um, to do this type of work. Those were their lifeline in terms,

[00:32:50.89] spk_0:
yeah.

[00:32:51.75] spk_2:
How are they going to feel and how are we going to redesign the volunteer job and how are you going to encourage them to come back in and make them feel safe and welcome into the food

[00:33:02.13] spk_1:
bank. Right.

[00:33:02.86] spk_0:
Less feeling less unless they feel useless and replaced by machinery. And this is all the organization thought of us. And now they now it’s just a bunch of metal replacing us metal and plastic parts. So yeah. Alright. Also being human centered, reflective,

[00:33:59.75] spk_1:
but that that’s that’s the dividend of time, tony if you can say all right, we used to have these uh, you know, two dozen volunteers who came in and were stocking shelves all the time. And now we’ve automated that task. What is it that these, you know, lovely people who wanted to help could do that would be so, you know, deeply human and centered as you say, and uh, you know, in in improving our relationship with our clients. Maybe they could be calling clients. So what else do you need? You know, what else is happening for you or just saying hello to somebody, Right. I mean, there are all sorts of wonderful human things that those people could now do if they want to um that they never had the time to do before. That’s the that’s where this is again, a leadership issue of really thinking about how do we want to use our human capital in the next chapter of organizational development?

[00:35:40.16] spk_0:
Okay, I think that’s an excellent example of the dividend of time that we’re we’re about a half an hour in or so. So let me uh let me try my, my skepticism out on you that we I’ve heard this before, that there was gonna be, there were promises of increased productivity and increased time. I’m thinking of smartphones, we’re going to give us more time and they certainly make us more productive, but I don’t I don’t I don’t see studies saying that we we have so much more time. I see that time being absorbed now you might say, well maybe I’m making your case for you that time being re allocated. Unthought feli unwisely. But I don’t I don’t see people walking around feeling that they’ve got so much more free time since the widespread adoption of smartphones 10 years ago or so. Um Another video conferencing, you know, whatever teams uh zoom, I hear more about zoom burnout than I do about feeling that I’ve got so much more time available because I don’t have to go to meetings. I don’t have to go to the office. Um You know, so those are a couple of the paperless office. That was another paper, the promise of the paperless office was going to be so much so much more efficient for us and I think that was gonna save time because we wouldn’t have to file papers and it was gonna save office space because we wouldn’t need storage and these promises. Um I sound like a whining 60 year old, but these promises have not come

[00:35:44.78] spk_2:
to not

[00:35:46.09] spk_0:
come to fruition in the

[00:35:46.96] spk_2:
past. So I’ll take what I’ll tackle the zoom fatigue thing and, and then Alison can kind of related to smart text. So

[00:35:56.32] spk_0:
I guess I should say uh, it’s not whining. I don’t want to sound like a curmudgeonly 60 year old.

[00:36:00.94] spk_2:
Well you’re not a curmudgeon and you never whine.

[00:36:03.79] spk_0:
All right, Thank you.

[00:36:52.45] spk_2:
So, so if you take zoom fatigue, right? Um, and that came from stanford University and basically what is causing it is the flight or fight response that is going on in our bodies when we see the grid. I mean, there’s some ways to mitigate it. But what happened is is that nonprofits like many businesses all of a sudden were forced to pivot to becoming remote distributed teams. We never really work like that. So the idea was, let’s just all make, get a zoom meeting. Let’s just take everything we did in person and just plop it online. And what happened because everybody was doing this there was, we didn’t really evaluate how do we collaborate effectively. What do we need, what can we do? Like a synchronously so we can make use of our synchronous or real time experience. So we can make meetings shorter. There’s research from Microsoft that shows that if you have stacked back to back meetings without taking a break your level of stress just stays the same throughout the day. And so if organizations were reflective, knowledgeable

[00:37:07.39] spk_0:
and kind of prepared, they

[00:37:16.17] spk_2:
Would have looked at and said, Okay, so let’s look at how we can, you know, stick to a culture of maybe a 20 minute meeting with 10 minute break in between or have a zoom number per day that we know that we’re not going to schedule more than x number of meetings, which would then think to how do we rethink our work? Um So it’s not just the technology, that’s true, the technology doesn’t create the dividend of time. It’s a combination of the technology with thoughtful leadership, reflective leadership as we’ve been saying, that can then change the culture.

[00:37:41.25] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:37:51.31] spk_1:
And let me let me let me build on that tony So we have an entire generation of digital technology That was intended to make us go faster, right? That was that’s what it has done. We are at a point now, we’re checking your email on average, 74 times a day is quote normal, right?

[00:38:04.53] spk_0:
We’ve gone from uh let’s say facts to email, to texting to to to um slack.

[00:39:36.27] spk_1:
We we we get that this technology, smart tech ai automation is not that technology, it is a fundamentally different kind of technology that’s intended to do things instead of people not to have us do more, But as Beth just said, it’s only going to do that. If we implement it thoughtfully, right, if we end up in the same place where we are checking on the box 74 times a day shame on us. The stuff has the potential to relieve us of so much administrative wrote work that just eats up everybody’s day. And if we can co bott well and have the bots do what they’re supposed to do and the people do what they they’re supposed to do, we can actually re humanize work. But as you know we’re just at the beginning of this process a lot of this is theoretical and that’s again is why we wrote this book instead of jumping in and grabbing the stuff and adding it onto your existing dizziness, frantic nous culture, we need you to stop and think and figure out how to do this. Well you know

[00:40:34.55] spk_2:
there’s some research that’s from M. I. T. Sloan school that looked at the effectiveness of this technology and um and where it is effective is if people don’t just focus on the efficiency of it that is to, okay well we can get all of these tests done way more efficiently because people aren’t cutting and pasting from different spreadsheets. Um But we’re not gonna fill up people’s with more work to do so it’s not to go faster, it’s really to be more effective and so if this technology can be implemented and it can kind of relieve some of that stress and pain of overload then that has an impact on morale and people feeling good about where they work and there is a synergistic impact that the study found that where efficiency and kind of effectiveness, let’s work together. So there’s so that can have more people feel better about their work, they do better, they get better results, they’re less likely to quit, there’s less likely to be turnover and the organization moves forward in a in a better way with better outcomes.

[00:41:09.01] spk_0:
Right, Okay. Alright. And that’s that’s if if it’s adopted with leaders consciously being human centered, knowledgeable, reflective, prepared. Uh and we’re gonna get to trust and empathy. Um All right, well you may have moved me from skeptic to uh cautious optimist.

[00:41:16.14] spk_2:
I was gonna say, what are you still are you still a little uh

[00:41:34.32] spk_0:
you know the history, the history has not has not borne out that leaders have adopted the new technology reflectively thoughtfully and prepared. Lee um It’s just so I’m just basically,

[00:41:36.18] spk_2:
pardon

[00:44:17.51] spk_0:
Me, they never had its 2022. Now they have the book, they didn’t have it when we went from facts to email or email to slack or email the text and text. Alright, Alright. No, no it’s okay. Um so leaders please uh keep listening. It’s time for Tony’s take to debunk the top five myths of planned giving, that’s my free webinar coming up. It’s Tuesday october 18th at 10 a.m. Pacific one o’clock Eastern I say free webinar but it’s not free for everyone. It’s free for you because you’re gonna use checkout code tony T. O N Y couldn’t be simpler. I think you have to put it all in caps too. I’m not sure about that part but do it all in caps to be safe. So I’m gonna be talking about debunking these insidious, pernicious top five myths of planned giving, I hate them, I loathe them, they are loathsome, that’s why I loathe them because they keep people away from planned giving like the one that says plan giving is gonna ruin all your other fundraising. It’s going to take away from your annual gift and your major annual giving and major giving. Debunk. We’re gonna debunk that and for others as well. So join me very simple to sign up. Of course. You go to our gracious host site. We are thoughtfully hosted by N. P. Solutions. So you go to N. P. Solutions dot org. You click workshops, you’ll find me in the list and then when you’re checking out use that code tony do it in all caps and it’ll be free for you. Not for everybody, but for you, I hope you’ll be with me. Let’s debunk these Hateful Top five Myths. That is tony stick to we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the smart non profit with Beth Canter and Alison fine. Let’s let’s talk some about the leadership. That’s perfect. So you mentioned the three things I really want to talk about trustworthy empathy uh, and curiosity and I have to get this in. If you had an H then you could have spelled out tech trustworthy empathy, curious, high minded

[00:44:18.40] spk_2:
human, human centered,

[00:44:26.89] spk_0:
human centered. You need, you got the T. E. C. In the book. I was looking where’s the H. All right. Uh, what does it look like for leaders to be to be trustworthy? To adopt Trust?

[00:44:34.88] spk_1:
Who

[00:44:38.64] spk_0:
who who’s the best, who’s the most trustworthy explainer of of trust?

[00:44:43.00] spk_1:
I

[00:44:43.18] spk_0:
don’t care. It could be either one. Okay, Allison Trust is yours. We got to go in order and then if we can come up with an H uh centered, but that you already have that in the in becoming a smart non profit That’s that. You already covered that one. So you can come up with another one. Um Herculean, heroic, heroic, Herculean, Right. Trust Alison, Why why is this trust?

[00:46:58.76] spk_1:
Important? So organizations are making a bond with people in their communities, right? We are, we are asking them to come along on a journey with us, uh, to be clients to be donors, to be volunteers, to engage with us in some way and trust is the stuff that’s sticking us together, right? It is social capital. It is thinking that an organization has your best interests at heart, not just their best interests at heart. And um, I feel like for 20 years, so many organizations have been going moving so quickly on this hamster wheel advised by people who make a lot of money off of transactional fundraising and transactional engagement online and have lost sight of the fact that unless and until people out there trust that you are doing the right stuff in the right way, nothing else matters. And we’re all trying to scale way too quickly, tony without really understanding the fundamental D. N. A. Of making sure that we are entirely values aligned from what we want to do to what we’re actually doing to the outcomes. And again, you know, beth and I feel so strongly that the nonprofit sector is such an incredibly special place, right? We are the epicenter of the world for you know, providing human services and doing advocacy work and it is such an incredibly brave, difficult work and yet we still have a ways to go in asking are the leadership of organizations both C suite and the boards to raise the bar to be more transparent uh to to ask more questions about how they’re doing, to measure their outcomes, to uh take care of their people internally and externally better. And so that’s why we put trust so high up on the scale of what we want organizations to be focused on.

[00:47:19.32] spk_0:
I think leaders feel when they’re there

[00:47:24.02] spk_1:
falling

[00:47:24.70] spk_0:
short in in in in in the aspirations that you just described. I think I think folks feel it it’s just but they’re on that hamster wheel and it’s, it’s hard to take, it’s hard to take that step back and and acknowledge what you’re feeling and be introspective as an organization.

[00:49:01.87] spk_1:
Let me, let me, let me describe something though. That’s really important. tony that we as a sector don’t talk nearly enough about. And that’s what Beth and I called the leaky bucket in fundraising. Right? So year one, you get 100 donors by year two, you’re down to 25 of those. You’ve lost 75% of those donors Because you’re so busy filling up the bucket again because you’ve lost 75% the year before and all you’re doing is this transactional fundraising, the email, the direct mail to fill up the bucket again. All of the measures of fundraising success are front loaded, right of did we hit those, you know, revenue targets for this year? Very few organizations are really focused on donor retention and how to increase it. It’s never been at a board table for discussion that I have been at in many, many years, many, many organizations of being on the board and that is where the panic comes in. And it feels terrible to staff and you know, my heart just goes out to all of those people who are in a panic about hitting those revenue numbers knowing that what they’re working with is hemorrhaging donors every single day and that’s where, you know, just in my heart of hearts tony I just want everybody to stop, just stop and take a step back and figure out how to improve your relationship with donors more. So they stay longer with you and you’re not in this panic every day.

[00:49:25.83] spk_0:
Allison, we’re gonna come back to you for for curiosity beth let’s talk about empathy,

[00:49:29.41] spk_1:
I’m

[00:51:40.41] spk_2:
sure. And I think the empathy is, needs to be turned within first before it gets turned outside to the donors to solve um, what what Alison was just talking about. But so empathetic leadership means the ability to understand the needs of others and being aware of their feelings and thoughts. And unfortunately it’s viewed as kind of like a soft skill. Um, and it’s not always linked to performance, um, indicators, right? And so I think it’s really important, especially with what we’ve been through in the pandemic, um, that organizations really need to have clear expectations with their managers to lead in a way that is supportive of, of employees and that supports and contributes to their overall well being and they can do that and still get work done. Um, and I think that like don’t get me started on well being, but um, well being has to be put center and it has to be raised up and given as much importance as fundraising metrics or, or other financial metrics, especially given what we’ve been through. And so this includes checking in training people to like actually observe on their staff and making sure that their, um, you know, caretakers for each other’s well being. And it’s, you know, like a one on one check in isn’t just about, hey, where’s that report? Where’s that proposal? But it’s also how people are feeling what their energy is. Like what their job experiences like what could be improved, which gets us closer to that conversation around technology. So, um, the types of skills and competencies that make for a culture of care or empathy or self awareness and self regulation, adaptive skills, active listening coaching with powerful questions, observing for signs of burnout. Being able to give and receive feedback in a way that doesn’t cause stress, disrupting microaggressions, inclusive facilitation, having those difficult conversations sometimes, which is too nice. But there’s ways to have those conversations that aren’t devastating and genuine perspective, taking. Being able to see it from other people’s points of view. And it doesn’t, I don’t think that makes us weaker. I really think it makes us stronger.

[00:51:54.81] spk_0:
You know,

[00:52:05.03] spk_2:
it’s not a bunch of, you know, reaction when I wrote the happy, healthy. Yeah. Right. We get the, you know, that’s a bunch of hippie crap. Yeah.

[00:52:07.04] spk_0:
I didn’t say that when I talk to you. You

[00:52:08.92] spk_2:
didn’t say that. Of course you wouldn’t say that. You’re too smart.

[00:52:25.83] spk_0:
Thank you. Well, you hardly know me, but thank you. I’ll take it anyway. Um, I know a lot of what you’re describing to is vulnerability. And I think vulnerability is a sign of uh is evidence of confidence that you’re, that you’re strong enough to be vulnerable where lots of people think it’s a sign of weakness that you’re showing, you know, you’re, you’re showing your human side and you know that I think that’s terribly misguided. Um alright, if we’re gonna, we’re gonna, I’m gonna keep you uh not beyond our allocated time. Let’s go to Alison for for curiosity.

[00:52:48.83] spk_1:
Why is it important?

[00:52:50.46] spk_0:
Yes. Why is, why is curiosity a valued trait for leaders?

[00:54:31.33] spk_1:
Uh, you know, the world is moving really fast tony and we have um, a lot of organizational leaders who think tech is not their thing, right? Tech is for somebody else and it can’t not be your thing. If you’re running an organization right now, it’s too important. It’s threaded throughout everything that your organization is doing and you can’t just lean back, You need to lean into it and to do that? You need to be genuinely curious about in our case for smart tech, What is this stuff and why is important and how is it different from the last generation of technology and what could we actually accomplish if we didn’t spend three quarters of our day responding to emails? What is possible out there in the world. And you know, my heart breaks for so many of the nonprofit folks that beth and I talked to who have such good intentions and are so deeply unhappy with how stressful their jobs are or how unrecognized they are by the C suite um or how um pressurized they feel. So it is just uh innately important for organizational leaders to be genuinely curious about, where do we go from here? Right. The world broke two years ago in so many fundamental ways the political economic stress of this moment is wearing people down but we can’t stay here tony we need to go somewhere and we genuinely believe that the family of technologies we call smart tech creates an opportunity to be different in the future to make work joyful and much more meaningful and rewarding and you can only get there if you’re genuinely curious and engaged in understanding the technology

[00:54:58.39] spk_0:
and I think curiosity and empathy are interrelated to curiosity about your people as beth was for all the, in all the ways Beth was describing. That’s

[00:55:08.56] spk_1:
exactly right

[00:55:12.54] spk_0:
alright. Um I don’t suppose the beth I don’t suppose you on the fly came up with an H for to spell out tech for us. Did you?

[00:55:23.89] spk_2:
You

[00:55:24.77] spk_0:
Have that one already?

[00:55:27.02] spk_2:
Humility

[00:55:28.26] spk_0:
Humility is a good one. There you go.

[00:55:29.86] spk_2:
So let’s riff on that humility in

[00:55:31.81] spk_0:
the second edition, you can add, you can add humility and spell out

[00:55:35.20] spk_2:
text and then we’ll footnote and say suggested by tony

[00:55:44.65] spk_0:
Thank you. Yeah, humility. Right. Isn’t that simple? Yeah, related to being empathetic leaders don’t need to know everything, do they?

[00:55:49.85] spk_1:
Oh gosh

[00:55:50.62] spk_2:
no listen

[00:56:15.01] spk_1:
we you know the reason why we wrote the network on profit tony was to take that idea of the hierarchical model of leadership and organizations out of the equation and say the point is somebody else in your network has the answer. You don’t have to have the answer yourself. You just have to know how to go about getting it right and and that of of flattening your organization and your worldview is so important to being able to survive all the uncertainties of what’s happening right now.

[00:56:52.37] spk_0:
Since we started with Allison, Beth I’m gonna let you wrap us up please. There’s so much more in the book. There are use cases, you know, we don’t the book, we can only scratch the surface here. You gotta get the book. That’s the point. You get. They talk about increasing program capacity, fundraising, back office automation, including a lot of talk about human resources. Um you just you gotta get the book which is the smart non profit but beth why don’t you leave us with inspiration and wisdom?

[00:58:30.19] spk_2:
Okay. Um we’ve been through a lot the sector has been through a lot. I mean the world’s been through a lot in the last 22 plus years with the pandemic and accompanying other crisis is and as Allison is outlined and I think we’re we are like at a precipice where we could just either go down the rabbit hole of you know a human capital crisis and spiraling out and people leaving the field and organizations just, you know, stopping business and, you know, leaving lots of people who are vulnerable who need their services. I mean, that’s we can’t go there. We have to pivot. And I think that um, smart tech is part of the tools that can help us get there. But again, their tools, they also need this empathetic leadership that we’ve been talking about and we who can also steer and change the culture to put people first. Um, and um, and I think if we can have all of these things together, working for the organization, the Smart Tech plus the culture plus the leadership, uh, we’ll be able to move forward in a post pandemic world with much better outcomes with happier staff, with staff doing a better job with donors, feeling seen and heard and wanting to, you know, um write bigger checks if you will with clients who are receiving the services that they need and we’re on a path to a better world. It’s not gonna be easy, but uh, we believe that non profits can do this.

[00:58:48.89] spk_0:
That’s beth cantor at Beth Kanter and Beth Kanter dot org co author Alison Fine at a fine and Allison Fine dot com. The book is the smart non profit you can find it in either of their two sites,

[00:59:00.00] spk_1:
Beth

[00:59:00.35] spk_0:
and Allison, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing

[00:59:03.70] spk_2:
genuine

[01:00:00.00] spk_0:
pleasure next week. Eric Sapperstein returns after many years. Let’s talk about waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech You find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff showed social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for June 6, 2022: Responding To Microaggressions & Discrimination

 

Dan Berstein: Responding To Microaggressions & Discrimination

Resuming our #22NTC coverage, Dan Berstein helps you identify these situations, decide whether and how to speak up, and mitigate your own potential biases and accept feedback. He has mental health resources for you at bit.ly/mhskills and bit.ly/TMHDashboard. Dan is from MH Mediate.

 

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[00:01:52.84] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with an echo Griffo sis if you clawed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, responding to microaggressions and discrimination, Resuming our 22 NTC coverage dan Burstein helps you identify these situations, decide whether and how to speak up and mitigate your own potential biases and accept feedback. He has mental health resources for you dan is from Mh mediate Antonis take two tips for Israel. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by 4th dimension Technologies IT Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like three D but they go one dimension deeper here is responding to microaggressions and discrimination. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N. T. C. The 2022 nonprofit technology conference. I’m joined now by dan Burstein. He is founder and mediator at M. H. Mediate dan Welcome back to nonprofit radio

[00:01:55.74] spk_1:
thank you for having me again.

[00:01:57.36] spk_0:
My pleasure. The 21 NTC brought us together, I believe it was it last I believe it was last year,

[00:02:03.14] spk_1:
yep, that’s right last

[00:02:17.44] spk_0:
year. Alright glad to have you back your session this year is tools to help a leader respond to microaggressions and discrimination. Uh now your work is in the is in the mental mental health mental illness

[00:02:48.54] spk_1:
space. Yes, so, you know, my work is focused on helping people have better communication about mental health and that’s what we talked about last year was how to have those kinds of conversations, especially during the pandemic and remotely. Um and one of the issues that comes up a lot is there’s stigma related to mental illness and it comes out with microaggressions and discrimination. So that’s why this year’s topic was tools that can help any leader, you know, notice and respond to these kinds of incidents of microaggressions and discrimination which aren’t just in mental health. They happen across the board. All kinds of different kinds of identities um can be hurt through discrimination and microaggressions. But my focus area has always been um you know, conflict resolution and mental health.

[00:03:14.54] spk_0:
Cool, Alright, so your examples come from that community, but the lessons apply broadly across identities.

[00:03:17.18] spk_1:
That’s right,

[00:03:17.96] spk_0:
okay, let’s let’s define microaggressions and discrimination, let’s start microaggressions, let’s make sure everybody understands what we’re talking about.

[00:06:35.14] spk_1:
So, so a microaggression, uh it can be a number of different things, but basically it’s any kind of comment or even a situation that includes an implicit message that some kind of identity group is less than or bad or has some kind of problem associated with it. So basically it’s talking in any kind of way that um endorses stereotypes or stigmas um and so I’ll give you an example with mental illness. Uh So I myself I have bipolar disorder and I include that often in my professional bio and in my work, and one time I told a colleague that um you know, I have bipolar disorder and he said, oh, really, Oh wow, you’re doing so well. And he said it like that, which was, you know, it sounds positive. A lot of microaggressions sound positive, and actually the message implied is, oh, I wouldn’t expect someone with bipolar disorder to present very well, and so it actually comes across as kind of negative in the meaning um even though it was a friend who meant to be supportive, um the stereotype gets embedded in the message. So a lot of times microaggressions, people think they’re being very nice and they are trying to be nice, but their their beliefs that um in this case that mental illness is something so damaging and debilitating, you wouldn’t expect someone to do well and and with with it um it gets embedded in and what they’re saying. And so there’s a lot of different kinds of microaggressions that um can come out and in in these different kinds of ways, but it’s a it’s an interesting thing. Another, another form of it is um, oh, you know, um you know, everybody, everybody has depression, you know, everybody has bad days and that would be considered what’s called a micro and validation where, you know, they they’re not taking it seriously when you tell them that you have a mental health condition. So it can go in a lot of different directions. There’s a lot of different kinds of messaging. Um and there’s actual academic literature reviews that catalog so many different ways. Um those kinds of messages could be in there, but basically the messages that are commonly unfortunately and inappropriately associated with mental illness are maybe this person is dangerous, Maybe this person doesn’t really have a serious problem and they’re making more out of it than it is, Maybe this person is inferior. Um Maybe I’m gonna treat this person like an infant or like they need my help. Um you know, so these are the kinds of messages that come out where, you know, even saying things like, oh, do you need some help or do you want some help with that? That can be seen as um you know, huge micro aggression in the world of disabilities where um if people, you know, mental illness is considered an invisible disability, but a lot of people have visible no noticeable disabilities and and being constantly offered assistance can be considered seen as a microaggression as well. So there’s there’s a whole literature on it and um it’s a it’s a difficult thing to handle because people often mean, well when they’re doing it and and it happens all the time in day to day life.

[00:06:49.54] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m thinking of the uh example of, you know, saying to someone who’s a person of color, you know, you’re so articulate or you’re you know, you’re so well read or something you wouldn’t expect

[00:06:55.18] spk_1:
and yeah,

[00:06:57.34] spk_0:
what you’re gonna say.

[00:07:53.34] spk_1:
Um and so one of the tools that I’ve shared when I do the workshop about microaggressions is a guide by kevin Nadal. Um that says um how do you handle a microaggression? And the first question is, did this happen? You ask did this, do I think this is a microaggression? Because you know, some of these things can be ambiguous enough that you have to ask yourself like, well, what’s going on here? And then then there’s the question of like, well should I respond? Because if I do um it could be a huge nightmare for me that this person’s gonna get so offended that I point out that they did the microaggression. And if I don’t then um I might get mistreated forever. So it’s, you know, it’s a really tricky world we live in with microaggressions because it can be so subtle and so understated. Um although certainly if it happens a lot and there’s a significant pattern of the men, it can become a hostile work environment situation. Um, you know, as well. So it’s a very tricky tricky confusing world when we talk about microaggressions.

[00:08:38.34] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m seeing this. You know, your your your session is two tools to help a leader respond to microaggressions and discrimination, I’m seeing difficulty just in the identification. Yeah. So if if the um if the if the person who this is who this is aimed at doesn’t doesn’t speak up, doesn’t call it out either on you know, in the moment, which is as you described, you know, which can be very difficult or later. You know, maybe privately to the to the to a to a leader. How is a leader to identify? How can you be so sensitive how how Yeah, that makes it wait. I’m the way I said it makes it sound like it’s impossible. How can we increase sensitivity to help leaders identify these microaggressions?

[00:11:19.74] spk_1:
Well. So so first I I need to flag the difference between microaggressions and discrimination. Okay, microaggression is sort of like evidence of an attitude, evidence of stigma that maybe there are stereotypes of an attitude. Whereas discrimination which we’ll talk about in a moment is an action. So it’s much easier to respond to discrimination because that’s where something actually is done and the person is treated differently versus the mere expression of the microaggression itself, which is much more confusing and complicated. And so it is it is tricky. And The main message that comes out of the workshop that we did at N 10 um is you know, be aware that this is going on, be sensitive, be ready. Um instead of being defensive to hear what someone’s attitude is when they say when they do bring it up and be understanding that it’s not easy to bring it up sort of like when we think about the, you know, the Me Too movement and sexual harassment. Um that every one person who complains there’s a lot who don’t because it’s so fraud. So having some empathy to understand that when someone does come in and they are complaining about something that they experienced as a microaggression. That’s hard. So the guide I mentioned. So it makes it very clear like it’s tricky to speak up because you don’t know if you, if you even can prove it happened and then you don’t know um you know how people will react if it’ll affect your relationships with your friends or your co workers or whoever. And so it is fraught to even bring it up. So the big message from microaggressions is just be receptive to people’s feedback, Be understanding that this happens and and do your best to have empathy for what it means when someone does come forward and and creating a culture where people are less defensive and more open minded about changing how they communicate on a regular basis. Um, you know, one of one of the projects that I have is called the Mental Health Safe project. And it’s about giving people tools to respond to microaggressions and discrimination. And one of the things that we’re working on is developing a stigma mediation program where people can come and talk these kinds of things out without it being punitive just so that way they can sort of work through some of the um stress of handling, you know, these microaggressions because it’s it’s confusing, right? The example I gave you this is a friend of mine who was trying to be supportive and said something that was very hurtful and that you know me being open with the bipolar disorder, I get that all the time and I know that no one’s trying to hurt me. So the question is, okay, well how do I, you know, how do I help them not do this again without making them feel really bad about themselves, You know? Um so it’s it’s a micro aggressions can be the trickiest issue. Then there’s also the discrimination stuff which we can talk about, which is a little less tricky.

[00:11:35.74] spk_0:
Right? Easy, easy too easy to identify.

[00:11:38.51] spk_1:
Still very tricky though. I’ll tell you some stories, it’s still very tricky, but it’s just like clear.

[00:11:45.04] spk_0:
There are also laws around discrimination that helped

[00:11:48.94] spk_1:
they help, but they’re not perfect and there’s still a lot of problems, you know? Um so I’ll talk about that. I mean if you want to transition we can I can talk about that right now.

[00:12:53.74] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll develop your media strategy. What’s that all about that is identifying your core messages, defining the channels the outlets, where those messages ought to be heard, who are the people who should be hearing your messages, who need to hear your messages doing the legwork to approach those outlets and as you are closing opportunities, crafting your message is appropriately to the audience that you uh you close the opportunity with. That’s a media strategy. Turn to communications can do it for you turn hyphen two dot c. O. Now back to responding to microaggressions and discrimination. I hear empathy. It sounds like empathy goes a long way. You know, when when someone is bringing this to a

[00:13:00.25] spk_1:
leader,

[00:13:26.14] spk_0:
you know, understanding what it takes for the person to have done so to have the have the courage fortitude to open the door. You know, to I mean the door got opened by the by the person who committed it. But to to bring it up as an issue is it takes a lot. Thanks a lot. Alright, so what’s the, like, what’s the next step for a leader? Now? We’re talking about tools to help leaders.

[00:13:31.24] spk_1:
What

[00:13:41.24] spk_0:
do you do when someone does bring this to you? Hopefully you’ve treated the person with that empathy and respect what should a leader do next?

[00:16:16.14] spk_1:
So, I mean, my advice would be um outside outside this program to use the guide that I reference, but you can get at bit dot li slash mh skills is the U. R. L. That I have of resources and you can look at that in more depth. But basically this guide, we’ll walk you through number one. If you think you’ve experienced a microaggression, how to think about what to do to handle it and talk about it. And on the flip side, if someone says, I think you’ve um done a micro aggression towards me, uh it walks you through what to do. Um and then, you know, when we’re talking about in a leader perspective, it’s like, okay, so let’s be aware of microaggressions happen, let’s be, let’s be ready with these resources. Let’s have empathy when someone comes to us. And then let’s also have perspective about, you know what it what it means because we live in a world where everybody has stereotypes and biases all the time. We want to all keep growing, but we have to keep it in perspective. You know, was this microaggression part of some kind of deliberate bullying campaign, in which case you respond differently than if it was a one off comment. Um was it associated with some kind of adverse employment action? Right? Was it, you know, it’s someone being excluded from? Um important conversations at work and they also are saying, I think it’s because of um my identity, I think it’s because this person doesn’t treat me the same because I have a mental illness. So they’re not giving me the same kind of projects or they’re not um giving me the same kind of feedback that’s different than just having the microaggression. So I’m not trying to trivialize the microaggression, but when you’re a leader micro aggressions are happening constantly all the time. Um and and so it really um depends what it is if the person is well intentioned or not, if it’s a pervasive pattern of, you know, bullying type conduct at the workplace or if it’s, you know, you know, a one off event, um if it is associated with some kind of, you know, actual different treatment in the workplace or if it’s just a comment that by itself is still a problem, you know, it’s still a problem to have a loose comment, but um it may not be connected with saying, well, you know, I I I have this micro aggression towards dan’s mental illness, that’s why we don’t put down on any of the tough projects, you know, that that would be um you know, a much more discriminatory act, that would be disparate treatment. Um and so, so it’s important to look at sort of the whole spectrum of when does something go past being a one off microaggression comment to uh, you know, mean one to them bullying and then to like different treatment in the workplace

[00:16:22.34] spk_0:
perspective is

[00:16:23.11] spk_1:
important. All

[00:16:27.44] spk_0:
right, context, context. Uh is there another example you can share

[00:16:29.76] spk_1:
of micro,

[00:16:31.58] spk_0:
a micro aggression? Yeah,

[00:16:33.95] spk_1:
maybe

[00:16:34.80] spk_0:
these are helpful.

[00:17:43.44] spk_1:
Sure. So this is this is just in my personal life that I think is interesting us. So I I’ve given awareness presentations in a lot of context over the years. And um I gave a presentation to a school class for a friend of mine and afterwards the friend said, oh, we could tell he has bipolar disorder. The friends that this the students said, oh, we could tell he has bipolar disorder because he got upset whenever we weren’t paying attention. And I said, oh, you know, I was trying to follow your protocols. I had seen the teachers react like that, you know, and have certain like it was a charter school that had this this whole culture and she said, oh no, no, we tell all of our teachers to act like they’re bipolar and that way the students will stay in line. And that wasn’t meant to be an insult, but it certainly was another example. I was giving a presentation for the american Bar Association and someone came up to me and I spoke to them and I mentioned my wife and they said, oh, your wife, she must be a very special person to take you on, you know, So

[00:17:46.14] spk_0:
they’re all bad. That’s egregious.

[00:19:17.44] spk_1:
Yeah, well, I I’m sharing the more egregious ones, but I have a lot of them, you know, there’s a lot of um or there was one time where um I was four months out of having been hospitalized for my illness and I was getting involved with an organization that had a speakers bureau. They said, we only take speakers who are nine months out of the hospital, which by itself I think is actually discrimination. Um, but they said because but because it’s you we want you now and we’d like you to speak. Um, you know, in this program we’re doing for students because it’s so hard to find someone who has a mental illness like you and isn’t very overweight from the medicine. Uh No, I don’t want anyone hearing this to think that you should be afraid of medicine because you become overweight. This was this was a very um, you know, uh ill informed mental health advocate, but that was a very, you know, that that those were compliments, right? That, oh, I’m more articulate than they expected for someone four months out of the hospital and I’m thinner and better looking than that what they expected. But that’s that’s not a good experience to hear those kinds of things. So, these are examples of where people say things that are well meaning and nice. Um, but they’re but they’re not really, they’re not nice ideas inside them that, you know, that that’s what a microaggression is. Is this this presumption, someone with mental illness can’t speak when they’re right out of the hospital. Someone with mental illness is likely debilitated by side effects and overweight. You know, someone with mental illness is a lot to take on why would someone want to marry that person. Um, You know, these are, you know, they come out as compliments, but they’re the premise is ugly.

[00:19:45.14] spk_0:
Um, can we deviate from helping the leader and you’ll be helping the folks who are may be subject to this? How how do you do you know, what’s your advice when when you feel that you’ve you’ve been wrong with with a microaggression?

[00:23:38.94] spk_1:
Um My advice is kind of sad because um you know, I do a lot of work in this area because I want people to have tools, but the reality is, and you’ll see this if you look at the guide I mentioned, um it’s not a good situation to be in when someone makes a microaggression, because first of all, the odds are, it’s a commonly held stereotype, which means if I tried to um counteract it on a regular basis, that’s a big burden for me to assume. Just taking the time out of my day, I’m trying to live my life. I don’t want to have to correct somebody about the microaggression once, let alone all the time. Um and that’s and that’s even with me as a professional who’s doing education, I’d rather focus on what I came to speak about? Not the microaggression. So no matter what, it becomes a huge burden, but then it’s like, well, well, how do I tell my friend, right, my friend who just brought me to give this talk now just said something very insulting. What do I do in response? And it really is a fraught situation. And so my advice first and foremost is similar to the guide is practice self care. So think to yourself, what do you really want out of this situation and what’s actually possible. Um Oftentimes for me what I did in those actual situations is I kind of made little sarcastic jokes because I I’m pretty quick on my feet. Um and and that’s my coping mechanism. So with my friend who said the thing about um, oh we tell our teachers to um to act out their bipolar. I said, well maybe I should come give a talk at your meeting tonight for the district because you know, that’s what I said right after, you know, and I do a little quips like that, but like those quips are not, they don’t really get you anywhere, you know? So, um my I guess my advice is just to to look for support, practice self care, think about what you want. Um I’ve been doing a ton of work this year, especially and addressing not just microaggressions, but published instances of discrimination in my field of mediation. And it’s very painful. People are very defensive. They don’t want to hear it. Um it really has affected my professional relationships because when I point out something that someone wrote that is bigoted towards mental illness, they take personal offense. They don’t want to speak to me. Um so I have reached a point where I have become more assertive, I’ve actually gone back and contacted people from years ago from different events that have happened and said, hey, you know, this, this bothered me and I, you know, because um because now that I’m doing it, um but it’s still hard and it’s still, I I can’t I can’t say it um yield some kind of incredible results. So, um I would say to anyone who’s experiencing this, hang in there, look for for peer support, make a decision yourself of what’s right for you and recognize that, you know, it’s important to take care of yourself, especially because it’s a marathon and not a sprint and this is gonna keep happening. So, um that’s that’s the unfortunate reality is that if you’re living in one of these identity groups, you’re going to be subjected to regular stereotypes that people don’t even realize they’re making. Um and so I’m not saying that makes it okay. But um this workshop gives tools to help you understand your options and and help you um you know, figure out where the lines are, where it’s discrimination, etcetera. But even when it’s discrimination, it’s it’s difficult to make a case, you need evidence to make a case of discrimination if you’re gonna actually hold someone accountable um under the americans with disabilities act a lot of times, judges don’t take mental illnesses as seriously as other disabilities. So even when you get to a point where you’re making a claim, you might, it’s not like I could say you’re gonna have a perfect reaction. Um so um it’s sort of a sad answer, but a realistic one. And um the part that’s better is it’s better than nothing. My answer is better than nothing and that, you know, So that’s what I had for about Over 10 years. I had no I had no options. Now. I’ve done all this research and I can say here’s some here’s some kind of sad options. So.

[00:23:54.54] spk_0:
Alright. No, but it there’s a lot of wisdom I think in, you know, what works for you, figuring out what works for you developing your own coping mechanisms. So, yeah,

[00:23:57.54] spk_1:
on the reality, I’m

[00:23:57.66] spk_0:
stuck with reality, right? And I’m sorry you’re subject to these two. I’m sorry this happens to folks

[00:24:04.74] spk_1:
happens to a lot of people. And a lot of

[00:24:06.94] spk_0:
groups.

[00:24:08.94] spk_1:
Let’s

[00:24:09.20] spk_0:
talk about discrimination. Let’s you’ve you’ve alluded to it a few times.

[00:24:12.85] spk_1:
Let’s let’s let’s

[00:24:16.64] spk_0:
shift their um It’s it’s now distinguished discrimination again, please. I know you did

[00:27:08.34] spk_1:
earlier discrimination discrimination occurs when someone is treated differently based on having that identity group. So a lot of times you’ll hear adverse employment action. So if someone is fired or given a, you know, poorer job assignment or something. Um You know, but there’s a lot of different ways discrimination can manifest and it’s not just employment. Um I’m there’s a lot of different laws to talk about different kinds of discrimination. The law that I’m gonna reference is the americans with disabilities act. The americans with disabilities act protects people who have um all different kinds of disabilities, not just mental illnesses from having discrimination. Um And there’s there’s a few different ways that that discrimination can occur. So one way that it can occur is screening somebody out if you screen someone out based on having um in this case the mental illness or health condition um in my field of mediation and conflict resolution, they actually have things um published that’s that recommend don’t take a case if someone has a mental illness that is not okay. That is discrimination by eligibility criteria. Um And um that is something I’ve been complaining about more recently, but when I when I first trained as a mediator, I was scared because they said don’t take a case if someone has a mental illness. And I thought, oh my, oh my, I just came out of the hospital for bipolar disorder. So um and I kept it a secret before I started being open. But um eligibility criteria is one type of discrimination where you screen someone out related to that. There’s something called undo inquiries or illegal inquiries. And this is, you know, um I think that I think there’s an analog for other groups but with a disability, it’s what if someone’s asking you questions about whether you have a disability, what your disability is, what it’s like for you. Um They’re not allowed to do that. So it’s similar to screening, but it doesn’t have to be related to screening people can’t just start asking you questions about your health conditions. Um And there’s different rules in different situations. Um There’s different timings and employment where some questions are permissible but in general it’s a good rule of thumb to say um you’re not entitled to invade someone’s privacy. So like let’s say you see someone and they have a service dog you can’t just go up to them and say well what’s your disability now that I see you have a service dog. Um And so there’s actual regulations and laws about this. Um And and so that’s the second type of discrimination is you know if someone’s asking questions um about you know the nature and severity they would say of your health condition. Um So we’ve got so we’ve got eligibility criteria. We’ve got the inquiries. We also have just general disparate treatment that’s if you get just treated differently in any way and you and you get and and so it’s not like you’re screened out. It’s not that someone’s asking you questions but someone thinks you have an illness or they or whatever you know whatever it is and they decide to do something different.

[00:29:43.44] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies their I. T. Solution. It’s I. T. Infra. In a box it’s the I. T. Buffet budget friendly. Like your average cafeteria right and holistic. I’m not sure how whole ism fits into cafeteria. Maybe it’s a cafeteria with with all the meals laid out at the same time. So you can choose from the breakfast or the lunch or the dinner all through the same pass through the cafeteria so there you go. So it is it’s just like an I. T. Buffet so you’re picking the parts of their offerings that you need and that fit your budget and you leave the rest behind. What’s in the buffet? I thi assessment multifactor authentication, other security methods, overall cost analysis help desk and there’s more you choose what’s right for your situation for your budget. Leave the rest behind the I. T. Buffet it’s I. T. Infra in a box. It’s at 4th Dimension Technologies. They’re at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper It’s time for Tony to take two. I’m going to Israel in november. Have you been to Israel do you live there if you live there can I stay with you know that’s no forget that’s okay that’s okay. But what tips do you have? How well if you know the country if you’ve been there if you live there what do you recommend? I’m gonna be spending most of my time in tel Aviv and Jerusalem but not exclusively and I’m pretty mobile I can get around so what ideas do you have? I’d be very interested in places to eat small. I love small. Local non touristed places in terms of food but also sights sights to see. Yeah, I mean of course I can do my own research. I will but if you’re in in in in this this is real insider maybe you can help me out. So if you’ve got ideas I’d be grateful. You can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com or the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. Thanks very much. That is tony steak too. We’ve got just about a butt load more time for responding to microaggressions and discrimination with dan Burstein.

[00:29:54.84] spk_1:
And as you mentioned,

[00:29:55.97] spk_0:
you mentioned not getting uh sophisticated projects

[00:30:52.24] spk_1:
right? Not getting sophisticated projects where you know and people and this happens where you know in a in a mental health case. You know if you if you look at the case law for the A. D. A. This happens where someone comes back from a medical leave where it gets known in the office, they have a health condition and suddenly people just start treating them differently for one reason or another and there’s evidence that people make comments that the person um is too anxious to handle things or you know whatever whatever it is. Um But but but that’s that’s that that is the disparate treatment um type of discrimination. So for if we’re tracking it there’s three so far out of four. So the first is screening. The second is inappropriate questions. The third is disparate treatment. And the fourth which which is special for disabilities is um if someone asks you to make a change because they need an adjustment because of their disability and you don’t do it. That’s another type of discrimination for disability. There’s there’s different.

[00:30:57.63] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:32:00.34] spk_1:
exactly. So that’s a reasonable accommodation and you don’t have to do it depending on if the if it if it would be a financial hardship or if it would fundamentally alter your service or if it would ruin the services for other people, it’s all decided case by case. But in general I’ll give you an example of when I asked for an accommodation when I travel and give workshops, I’ll call the hotels and I’ll say I need you for a disability accommodation. I need you to give me the quietest room you’ve got because I have bipolar disorder in my sleep is necessary to protect my condition. And I you know, and and it’s free, it doesn’t cost you anything. I just need you to block the room. Whatever room you know, is the quietest. And I talked to them about it, put me in that room, that’s my reasonable accommodation. So that’s an example of an adjustment. I had a reasonable accommodation where I said I’m emotionally triggered because we’re talking about discrimination right now I’d like us to meet by email instead of by zoom and and that was a request for an accommodation. So those are some examples where you know, sometimes you know people can make excuses why they wouldn’t do it, but when it’s something free, it’s like why wouldn’t you just do the accommodation. So um but those are those are the four different types of actual things you can look at. Did someone screen someone out? Did they ask an inappropriate question? Did they treat you differently or did they reject a request for a reasonable accommodation? Those would be the ways we look for discrimination.

[00:32:19.84] spk_0:
And what’s your advice for leaders now? We’re trying to tools to help leaders.

[00:35:04.84] spk_1:
Well, my advice with Leader for Leaders is to be really mindful to these things. As red as red line issues where, you know, like, okay, we’re gonna be careful what questions we asked were going to be really careful if we ever do any screening, we’re gonna have practices. So we know we’re acting consistently and we’re not um liable to have this disparate treatment a lot of times what you have is in the workplace or anywhere. People are just doing a lot of ad hoc stuff based on gut feelings instead of having procedures and that’s where bias will start to creep in and people don’t even realize it. Um And so having having some clarity of just being more attentive to trying to be consistent. So you don’t fall into those four traps of discrimination. That’s that’s one piece of advice for leaders. The other is, you know, the same thing, like listen, when someone tells you um I’ve I’ve been in the process of contacting major like law schools and organizations that have actually printed guidance that says um in print that that mediators should treat someone differently when they have a mental illness. And I’ve said you’ve gotta update this, you’ve got to take this down and some people listen. So um one organization changed it right away that they had said to watch out if someone might be violent based on if they have a mental illness, they changed it. But some people get very, very entrenched and um and and and it’s sad there’s a there’s a real bias in our society that’s demonstrated by research that people just don’t notice mental illness discrimination as much as as other groups. What I what I have found is it’s painful because I we’ll try really hard to explain it and show it and have evidence. And even then people, you know, look at me like they’re I don’t know if you’ve seen Westworld, like they’re a Westworld robot. I don’t know if you’ve seen this where the West in the show Westworld, the robots just can’t process things that don’t fit their narrative. Maybe someone listening will understand what I’m saying. Yeah. So it’s just it can be very uh this idea of being open to just noticing these things and addressing them. Um I think it’s the most important thing and and and and the other thing I’ll say to a leader is um these are opportunities to build relationships when these things happen, you know, instead of viewing it as something to be defensive as a liability? It really becomes a liability when you evade it. But if you tackle it head on and just listen to the people for feedback, most of the people who are going to complain about microaggressions and discrimination are so used to being battered by these things that any small gesture that you actually do to listen is gonna be noticed and it’s gonna probably mean a lot. So, you know, that’s, that’s my suggestion. You know, I’m usually not looking for much from people when I bring this up and it’s like very sad to see these walls go up and to watch them get so entrenched and to watch the problems get bigger and bigger and bigger when it could have been a great opportunity to show compassion and understanding and growth that the organization. So, um, you know, that’s my hope is that people will, will take that opportunity

[00:35:25.44] spk_0:
dan. What were some of the questions that you got in this session?

[00:35:46.14] spk_1:
The questions I got in the session? Um, we’re, we’re generally people had specific instances because we did talk a little bit about reasonable accommodations and other kinds of events. Um, and, and people would ask about, um, you know how to how to respond to microaggressions like you asked, but also, you know how to speak up about it. Um, not much different from what we talked about here. Nothing, nothing earth shattering that comes to mind right now.

[00:36:09.13] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you want you want folks to know about either microaggressions or or discrimination? Again, we’re trying to help leaders in small and midsize nonprofits.

[00:37:15.53] spk_1:
Yeah. Well what I would say is um I’ll just share some information for leaders. So that way you have it to contact me. So this is my life’s work, this is what I’ve been doing um you know, with all my energy um and so I’m available. So anyone who wants to um contact me can do so easily and ask me questions directly and you can email me at dan at M. H. Mediaite dot com. Um You can get the resources from the session at bit dot li slash mh skills. Um If you’re interested in um seeing more kinds of resources that are out there for handling mental health in the workplace. Um There’s a program called the talking mental health dashboard and you can read about that at fit dot li slash tm h. Dashboard. Um And then a lot of the work that I’ve been doing with microaggressions and discrimination falls under the umbrella of the mental health safe project which is bringing together people to try to have resources for these things. Um And that’s an easy U. R. L. It’s M. H. Safe dot org. So you can go to any of these places and contact me um you know, I’m happy to answer questions anytime. I really um I feel like it’s important that we bring more attention to these issues and have more resources. So um that’s what I would add.

[00:37:30.13] spk_0:
What’s your mediation practice?

[00:38:17.52] spk_1:
My mediation practice um has been mostly families that are um having communication issues um and it’s transitioned more and more from, you know, in terms of the from the direct mediation, I also do a lot of work places um but into into training programs because my big my big goal is um that everybody had these skills as opposed to needing an outside person like need help. Um So I’ve done a lot of these large scale programs that have been grant funded or for organizations um where we set up online resources that are available 24 7. so you know, the next project that I’m doing it was of um is funded by the Ai CDR Foundation and we’re working with um national law enforcement to roll out resources for law enforcement officers to have more empowered interactions about mental health using a lot of the principles of conflict resolution um that go through all of the work I do with my company. So um yeah that’s coming out soon.

[00:38:36.72] spk_0:
Uh we have a drug in jail on nonprofit

[00:38:40.20] spk_1:
radio

[00:38:41.82] spk_0:
Ai CDR.

[00:39:25.32] spk_1:
Oh so a is the american arbitration association I cr is the International Center for dispute resolution. The two of them came together and they have a foundation, the A Ai CDR Foundation and they fund dispute resolution programs And so um I have a program that was funded by them through five different grants called the dispute resolution and mental health initiative. And what we do is we create resources for different communities. We’ve done it for families, for housing providers, for libraries now, for police um where we set them up with these online modular platforms where they can learn the skills they need and have tools they can use um in their regular practice as opposed to it being a one off training. So that way um they have, you know, ongoing access to resources um and in the hopes that they’ll be able to improve these interactions with mental health stakeholders

[00:39:47.32] spk_0:
dan Burstein, founder and mediator at Mh mediate you know how to reach him dan, thank you very much. Thanks for sharing.

[00:39:49.72] spk_1:
Thank you for having me,

[00:41:15.81] spk_0:
my pleasure and thanks to each of you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 ntc. Glad to have you with us next week, 22. NTC coverage continues with appealing to younger donors for the great transfer of wealth if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to Communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O And by 4th dimension technologies i Tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits, tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like three D. But they go on to mention deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Steiner. Be With Me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Mm hmm. Mhm.

Nonprofit Radio for June 7, 2019: Disrupt Unconscious Bias & Your Normal Is My Trigger

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Joe Shaffner, Minal Bopaiah & Sara Boison

Joe Shaffner, Minal Bopaiah & Sara Boison: Disrupt Unconscious Bias
Our panel encourages you to dive deep into your own biases and how they influence you and your brand. Then deconstruct and disrupt those you no longer want. They’re Joe Shaffner at International Center for Research on Women; Minal Bopaiah with Brevity & Wit; and Sarah Boison from Communities In Schools. (Recorded at 19NTC)





Barbara Grant & Eve Gourley: Your Normal Is My Trigger
Accept without blame that your normal is not everyone’s. This panel helps you recognize differences and manage across generations. They’re Barbara Grant with Crux Consulting Consortium and Eve Gourley from Food Lifeline. (Also recorded at 19NTC)





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View Full Transcript
Transcript for 442_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190607.mp3 Processed on: 2019-06-07T19:22:27.262Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…06…442_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190607.mp3.778427195.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/06/442_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190607.txt xero Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of trick Otello, Sis, if you split hairs with me over whether you missed today’s show disrupt unconscious bias. Our panel encourages you to dive deep into your own biases and how they influence you and your brand, Then deconstruct and disrupt those you no longer want. They’re Joe Shoffner at International Centre for Research on Women Minal, BOPE IA with brevity and wit, and Sarah Boysen from communities in schools that was recorded at 1990 si. Then you’re normal is my trigger except without blame that you’re normal is not everyone’s. This panel helps you recognize differences and manage across generations. They’re Barbara Grant with Crux Consulting Consortium and Eva Corley from Food Lifeline that’s also recorded at 19 and TC Tony stay too pissed in Brussels, Responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuant by witness Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers regulars wetness cps dot com My goodness and by text to give mobile donations made easy text NPR to 444999 I got that one already is enough. Here are Joe Shoffner, Middle back-up Aya and Sarah Boysand from 1990. Si. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 1990 Si. That’s the non-profit Technology Conference. We’re in Oregon, Portland, Oregon, at the convention center. This interview, like all our 1990 si interviews, is brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising. Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me are Joe Shoffner, Mental BOPE Aya and Sarah Boysen. Joe is senior communications specialist at the International Centre for Research on Women. Excuse me. Mental is principal consultant at brevity and wit, and Sarah is director of digital strategy for communities in schools. Welcome everyone. Thank you for your pleasure. Have you, uh, we’re talking about your seminar topic, which is disrupting unconscious bias as we grow our brand. Uh, let’s start down at the end. Sarah. What? Before we unpacked What? Unconscious biases? What What’s what’s the trouble? What are non-profits not getting right about growing their brand that you wish they would? Well, I would say a lot of non-profits are really struggling Teo identify where some of the problems are coming from. In terms of things like hiring a promotion in terms of the communications, I think a lot of organizations are starting to see that diversity isn’t something that just could be thrown around is a buzzword. But it’s something that they actually have to embody within the organizations, and from there it usually flows through the word. Okay, mental. You want to add to the headline on the leave? Um, yeah. I mean, I agree with everything. I think I’m sorry agree with everything, Sarah said. And I think in this day and age, brands do need to be very conscious of diversity and equity and inclusion if they want to have a brand that’s still relevant. I think thie millennial general generation is probably the most inclusive generation of it’s time. America is more diverse than it’s ever been. And if you want to appeal to all segments of the United States, if you want to be a global NGO, and in the end, the in the era of social media where a misstep can go viral, it’s really important that brands protect themselves by having an awareness of how unconscious bias could have affected their brand. Okay, Joe, you want to lead us in a swell, I think the one point, I would add is, is that unconscious bias within a browned is both individual and group. So in order to work as a team to tackle unconscious biases that come out in your brand, you have to alert look internally as an individual and as a team. Okay, let’s define unconscious bias. What do we mean? Sure, So they’re going to throw it to me since I have the degree in clinical psychology. And so I’m technically supposed to be able to do this. So it’s It’s easier with slides and with visuals, to be fair, if you are a picture of the brain. But I’m gonna I’m gonna do this via just speaking and see how this goes. Basically, within the human brain there, two systems of thought. There’s automatic thinking, and there’s deliberate thinking. Dahna condiment talks about this and his work thinking fast and slow. I prefer the words automatic and deliberate, because you can have delivered thinking that is fast as well. And unconscious bias happens because thie automatic thinking pathways, which air dictated by the limbic system, which contains the amygdala and the hippocampus. And those are areas that are really responsible for creating emotion and creating memories tend to fire together. And what that allows you to do is to make quick split second decision. So, for example, if you’re in a dark room and you you walk in and it looks like there’s a snake on the floor, you would recoil. Now, if you turn on the lights, you may find that that snake is actually a rope. And so you’ve based your data, your based your reaction on what your brain has perceived and made a split second decision that’s protected yourself. We’re talking about such decisions about people. Yeah, so if people in groups, yeah, so if you are not exposed to people of a certain race. But all of your data has been for movies that portray that raised negatively you may have if you meet somebody of that race, your initial reaction, maybe based on poor data at the same time, that automatic system can protect you. So I used to be a rape crisis counselor in a previous life, and a lot of women have said that they had the sense they had a flag that said maybe this guy was dangerous, but they didn’t want to be biased against them. And that’s not the time to just go against your bias is what we really talked about in our session was that if you want to mitigate biases, you have to start employing that more deliberate system of your brain. And bring your unconscious biases, too, your awareness, and really start to look at whether you’re basing those decisions on accurate data or not. If you’re a woman who’s in a position where you physically feel threatened, you need to get yourself out of that space first. But then reflect back as to whether your fear was based on something realistic or whether it was based on a past memory that was maybe inaccurate for that situation. Or worse, just something culturally that understood. Yeah, and grossly. It could be grossly and actually wrong, and but it it could be really accurate. And it it’s up to every individual to really do the work to explore where their biases air coming from and be able to respond from from their deliberate thinking from their from their executive functioning part of the rain. Rather then just that primal urge of their brain. Okay. And then Sarah on I may even be asking youto repeat what already said, But I’m trying to I’m processing this. And you all have been thinking about this for months. Relate this back now to brand, please. Yeah. So in terms of the brand, I mean one thing I can say that, at least in my organization, that community schools, what we’re doing is we’ve implemented diversity equity and inclusion work. So what we were doing is we’ve identified a taste of the basic level that there’s some work that we need to do organizationally, right? So we recognize that as we work with one point 6,000,000 students across the country, that each of us individually may, you know, we all hold biases, and it’s up to us to do that work to ensure that we’re able to better serve our students and better understand their circumstances. So what is happening at my organization is that our board of directors is actually mandated that we implement d I work across all of our affiliates across 26 states and D. C. So there’s work that’s being done from the top down and also from the bottom up. So what we’re doing as well is that we’re we’re going to our affiliates and we’ve actually way have affiliate representatives that are on a d. I planning team. And what they’re doing is they’re actually creating a tool kit, and they’re creating actual work flow for the entire organisation for us to follow in order for us to better serve the students in our community. So this sounds like I mean, even though I asked you about Bram, this sounds like mission. I mean, it goes right to it, really is more of your work and your what your mission is. Absolutely. I feel that if you can’t address a lot of the things that go on in terms of diversity equity inclusion, I almost feel like you really can’t as an organization served. You know, many of the populations that way Do you want to help? So d I needs to be identified as a core value of the organization? Absolutely. It’s time for a break. Pursuant. The art of First Impressions had a combined strategy, analytics and creative to captivate new donors and keep them coming back. It’s all about donorsearch acquisition. It’s on the listener landing page. You want to make that terrific first impression so that your donors stay with you. They’re attracted to you and they stay retention as well as attraction. You’ll find it at Tony dahna. I’m a slash pursuing with a capital P for please. Now back to disrupt unconscious bias. I mean for a non-profit. Hold on. I want to find out what his communities in schools do. What’s the work? S o Right now we serve one point 6,000,000 students across the country. Essentially, how it’s structured is we play psycho. Nader’s within schools. So we work with school district and schools and state offices. We have sight coordinators in schools that helped afield. Resource is between the schools in the community to help the students and their families. Okay, pulling together resource is from local communities. You’re in 26 states. Yes, we’re 26 states in D. C. Okay. Community resource is for the benefit of students. Yes, So it is. It’s academic and community resource is so good example would be like if a student comes in and their and their families facing homelessness instead of the student putting that responsibility on the family and the student, the site coronated will help so one identify what some of their needs are and work with those in the school as well as some of the folks in the community to ensure that the students able to get the resources that they need so they could focus on school. We’re gonna know I was just going to put a finer point on Sarah’s comments and say that you know, for non-profits how you execute your mission is your brand. And so that’s why I like if there’s bias and how you’re executing your mission, that is a reflection of your brand reputation than in the space and goes back to, you know, how do you want to be known in your community in the country? Okay. Okay. Um, so from your session description, your dive deeper into our own biases on how they influence us on the point being made that we’re not only talking about organizationally, but also individually, Um, how did they influence us? I mean, it could be positive. My my thinking is that it’s I mean, I think, is that it’s mostly negative. But it could be positive, I don’t know. Or is it all negative? How did the job your turn? How does how does how did these biases influence us? What’s don’t go by me? What’s the consensus of the pattern? Sure. So I think one thing mental untouched on was the snake versus rope on DH. You know, applying that to Ah non-profit setting where it shows up is actually because there’s so many things going on at one time that you have to make decisions quickly so you don’t have a lot of time. It feels like to process and to think about these decisions that you’re making so to an extent, what we wanted to focus on them. The session was how to bring that out and discuss it in an honest way with those in your organization and also focus on who is in the room who is at the table discussing this because you do get caught in these cycles sometimes of having the same people making these decisions, whether it’s events, whether it’s what photos you’re choosing. Teo, display the Bowler hat brand. What project you’re taking on and a great way to mitigate that is bringing other people in from different backgrounds, different perspectives, different views and how you work together to come up with solutions of that. Create that change. Okay, the how and the who Let’s talk about some of the house. How do you bring it up? So one of the things that we’re working on at I c e w is the International Centre for Research on Women is an event checklist. So we’re aware that with all these quick decisions we’re making, sometimes you bypass the thought process and how to, uh, figure out how who’s on the panel for the events on DH? The checklist brings into mind, um, you know, who are you bringing in for the planning stage? I think that was the most important point that we came out with is who’d you bring in the room? And then you look at, um what photos? For the invitations you look at, you have considerations of who’s on the panel. So, for example, if you have a panel on talking about youth and there’s no one represented who is in the category of youth, right, so, uh, kind of bringing all those perspectives to the table. Okay, Sarah, anything you can add about who should be in this conversation? Yeah, I’d liketo piggyback on what Joe was talking about. So for me, like working in the use sector, what I’ve seen is a lot of times you have people who are making decisions that, uh, that that impact other people. And one of the things that I really want to challenge, not only just ourselves, but other non-profits do is to really allow the people that we’re serving to be the experts on their lives like, yes, we have the resources and the tools to maybe empower them, um, to shift course of change. But I really do feel that we’re doing ourselves a disservice by not bringing the people that we serve into the conversation to be a part of the solution. And that’s one of the things that including when their school age Absolutely that’s do-it-yourself. Absolutely. And I for us, I mean, there’s definitely a perception that young people aren’t ready for leadership right now, but many of them are already leaders in serving in their communities, and many of them are very well versed in what’s going on and some of the problems at their peers phase. So we’ve actually found it to be incredibly powerful toe bring in students early on in the process. When we’re doing the programs, when we’re doing projects and asking them, Hey, what is going on? And what do you feel would actually be a viable solution? And we actually just did a student in it. Evasion Challenge in Las Vegas and we had four students. Three of them were from Charlotte, and 11 was from Michigan. And they actually presented ideas that they worked with on a student team to help mitigate some of the issues that are happening at their school on. It was a great opportunity, one for adults to kind of just sit back and listen to these students. But it was also another opportunity where we were actually e-giving Students of resource is to be able to actually create change in their own neighborhood mental about how to raise your advice, how to raise this in in your organization. Yeah, it’s an interesting question because I think it’s sort of organically being raised in a lot of non-profits right now because, like I said, the younger generation of employees who are coming in are very aware of this and really wanted When you have an intergenerational office, Yeah, and and I think, really, when we’re talking about building diversity, equity inclusion when we’re talking about building inclusive cultures, what we’re talking about, his power dynamics. And so you really need to be able to study power to be successful in any diversity and inclusion initiative. And that means working with leadership. If leadership is not bought in that diversity and inclusion needs to be a core value of the organization, it is unfair to put the burden of change on people who have lesser power. And and that’s really critically important for organizations. Understand, once leadership is bought in, then it needs to be like any other operations or business unit where there is actual commitment in time and money and metrics for progress. How do you get this buy-in What? So much of the power is white and male. Yeah. Andi, let’s assume the leadership is because a lot of it is not all but a lot is Yeah. How do you How do you go to the CEO? The white male CEO and try to get this D I core value buy-in from? Yeah, the guy whose power he perceives is being threatened. Yeah, so not assumes. Powers xero some, but But ah, lot of guys do. Yeah. So how do you overcome that? Yeah, so that’s a big question. So I’m gonna take it in multiple ways. Got two and 1/2 minutes now we have more than yeah. No, that’s a really good question. And I think it gets to their multiple approaches. First of all, like somebody died. So I would not recommend somebody like me because I’m much better at strategy than I am as an executive coach or facilitator. I think it takes, um, Riel s o. I worked with a lot of diversity inclusion. Consultants are facilitators, and they’re exceptional at their ability to have a conversation at that level That doesn’t trigger people’s defensive isn’t Isn’t this almost essential? Tohave an outsider facility trained facilitator. Sarah, you’re shaking. Did you did you use a a facilitator? Yeah. So currently way Do bring in outside facility. Other conversations I’ve had with other guests. They’ve said that it’s almost essential because it’s doing conversation. Could break down. Yeah, rapidly. And you need you need sort of an outside there. But, I mean, I think of a diversity inclusion consultant almost like a family therapist, like their job is to give you that outside perspective and help you to see things in a new way on DH, then within, like, sort of having those conversations. There’s multiple things that you could speak to. Some people like to go the fear and avoided through, which is what I mentioned before about brand reputation. You know, if you want your organization to continue to be successful in the 21st century, you need to get on top of this. Bring a Brown. Once gave a talk at Were Human last year, where she said, If you are a leader who is not talking about diversity and inclusion, you will not be a leader in five years from now. And if you are going to talk about it, you were going to mess up and you were going to fall flat on your face and you were going to make mistakes. And you need to learn how to be an evolved enough leader to make public mistakes. And like rumbled through it and get through to the other side. So it takes a lot of it takes a very mature leader to be able to do this. The second part is to make what people like to call the business case, which is There’s research that shows that shone and this is from the for-profit sector. But companies that have diverse product teams have three times as many patents as companies that don’t. So the leveraging diversity will inevitably help your programs, your operations, your bottom line. And that’s really important to know, especially as we live in a more globalized world. I mean, I remember growing up is an Indian American. I didn’t think most of the television and most of the magazines were relevant to me. I didn’t buy any of that stuff. Nobody got my dollars because nobody was marketing to me on the third way is really too, you know, I think that there are enough white men like Joe, and you probably like you, Tony, who are you who are men of conscience? You know who who understand that you shouldn’t. There is a business case to be made, but you should just write this was the right thing to do for God’s. You shouldn’t always have to make the business case to do the right thing. And more importantly, like how, like, Why don’t you want to create a place where you wouldn’t recruit the best talent? You know, like Sara shared an experience today in our session. I’ve had a similar experience of being in organizations where we wanted to give our best. But the lack of an inclusive culture made us leave. And so you’re losing exceptional talent because of unconscious bias or because of your lack of commitment to including creating an inclusive culture. And so if you want to create the best products and services, if you want to have the best programs, if you want to have the greatest impact, this is is absolutely critical to all of those goals. And so diversity Inclusion isn’t something you do because it’s nice. It’s something you do because it’s mission critical and a strategic goal for every organization. I feel like the conversation has been raised to another level just within the past few years, and that may be the result of black lives matter now metoo. More recently, metoo No, because for so many years it was just It’s the right thing to do. But now, on DH, that was unavailing, obviously, to the white power structure, white male power structure, because things weren’t changing. So doing the right thing wasn’t sufficient a za motivation necessary but not sufficient. But now you know we’re so buy-in next level, we’re making the casing in different ways. That you can argue should have been, should not have been necessary. But Aziz said change wasn’t happening. So, you know, making the business case, for instance, Yeah, If you have to bring it, bring it to the bottom line and say you risked relevance, you risked losing talent. Well, I think it’s a communications professional, and other communications professionals here can speak to this. It’s important to speak to the values of your audience, and I think it’s it’s hubris on the part of people who actually care about these things to believe that the other person must think like you in order to be able to enact diversity inclusion initiative. I really think that Dee and I needs to take the same approach that truth campaign took to smoking. They created a multitude of ads, and they basically was like, We’re going to target everybody. We’re going to target everybody based on whatever they care about. And so when you would see the ad, maybe one out of 20 adds spoke to you, but then they got 20 different archetypes that they could speak to. So they weren’t saying, Oh, you have to care about this one thing in order for you to buy into this way of living. And I think diversity and inclusion needs to take that approach that different people are going to be motivated by day, different things. And we need to be able to speak to all of those motivations instead of sort of rank ordering and saying This motivation is better and more noble than this other motivation. I think that’s really judgmental, and it doesn’t move anything forward. Okay, Joe, we haven’t heard from you in a while. What you want to contribute? So, uh, we focused a lot of the session today on, uh, workplace, but I would extend that to say, particularly for white males. Um, this is a conversation that I think needs to be had in the home. A school on the street because of some of the issues that we’re facing. It worked. We bring in tow work. It’s not just something that comes up at work. So it’s something where to have a coffee with someone and and just try to shift perspective a little bit. And there’s in the us in particular is a lot of this attitude of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Um, which, yes, that’s worked for some. But there are others who don’t start out at the same level where there is race, gender, economic way, same level. But you don’t have the same opportunities, right? Don’t have. You don’t have the power. Yeah, So it I think by avoiding, um, even reflecting on that, that’s where the biases come in. And that’s also where we continue doing the same thing, Um, at work, at home. So it’s like, how do we create that shift? And part of that? Is this through honest, open communication? Ok, uh, we still have, uh, another two minutes or so. Two and 1/2 minutes. What else have you done your panel yet? Yes, you have. Okay, So what else you had 75 minutes with in front of an audience. What else did you talk about? That we didn’t talk about here or more detail that we didn’t go into enough. We got a couple of bones talk about white privilege of fragility. Sametz. Well, actually, actually want anything I want to bring up was we had a bingo card which included some of these terms, but we did have, ah, exercise on privilege. So essentially, we made some statements. Uh, and people would raise their hand if they felt that reflected on them on DH. Keep their hand down if they felt like it didn’t which there’s been a breach has such a sure such as? I have no college student loans. There were some that raised their hand, Some that didn’t, um that one’s a little easier to answer than others. Like I’ve never been bullied. Some might think, Uh, yes, I’ve kind of been believed, but it hasn’t been to the level of what I think. Other people have been bullied. So what we focused on through that was that it’s a little more complex. It’s not binary either, or sometimes the decisions made in those moments, um, are more complicated. And I think That’s kind of what we want to focus on here. Um, so relate this back to white supremacy. Yeah, sure. Um so white supremacy, white power, White power, White privilege. Okay. Yeah, No. So a lot of, for the most part, this is just to reflect on the fact that the privileges are there. I think that’s Ah, it seems simple, but for a lot of there are a lot of people who will not associate themselves with privilege. Or they’ll say, But I grew up in a poor area without reflecting on the fact that maybe someone else of a different skin color or different gender also did. But it’s staggered. So that and this white powers, you say, white privilege. It’s structural. It’s ingrained in our systems and our institutions, um, and and too tow have those conversations. And to create change, we really have to be reflective and admit that they exist. Okay, way. Have another minute left. So let’s, uh let’s give the wrap up sorrow that I asked you to start with you. Have you mind wrapping up what you want to leave people with? I just really want to challenge people to do the hard work of really looking within themselves to identify any bias is that they may have on and just know that it’s a lifelong commitment. I think a lot of people go into it thinking like, Oh, I’m going to do, you know, for three hour sessions this year and I’m going to be woke check, Yeah, and you know, I definitely want to challenge people, not to feel the pressure to be quote unquote woke. I feel like that’s a word a lot of people have been throwing around recently, and I just think that people need to just do the work consistently in order to be able to change their perspective on different peoples in places and things. All right, we’re gonna leave it there. Thank you very much for all three of you. Each of you think they are. Joe Schoffner, senior communications specialist at the International Centre for Research on Women. Manabu piela, principal consultant at Brevity and Wit, and Sarah Boysen, director of digital strategy for communications for communities in schools. Thank you again. Thank you. Thanks to you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 1990 sea as non-profit technology conference in Portland, Oregon. This interview. Like all our 1990 si interviews brought to you by, or partners that ActBlue free fund-raising tools to help non-profits making an impact. Thanks for being with us. We need to take a break When you see piela CPAs, it’s in the title. You know what they do? Do you need one? Do you need a new one? If you think you might need help or your tinkering around the edges of maybe changing accountants, check them out. You goto weinger cps dot com. Do your due diligence there, of course, and then pick up the phone. Talk to the partner. Yet each tomb who you know because he’s been on the show twice already and he’s going to be coming back. He’s not high pressure. He’ll explain whether they can help you. All right, that’s the process. Get started at Wagner’s cps dot com. Now time for Tony’s Take two. My video is pissed in Brussels. Yes, uh, manic in piss, and that is what it’s called. I’m not being crude, so if you turned off well, if you were to turn off the volume or shut me down, then there’s no point in me saying Don’t because you’ve already done it. But for those of you were still here, like on the fence. Don’t be offended, because that is what it’s called. There’s a statue in Brussels, Belgium, called manic in piss. Okay, maybe it’s peace in Belgium on these manic and peace, but it’s spelled like this. So, um yeah, so I got I got assaulted. I got assaulted by the little statue. Um, he pissed on me and you can see it. You can see it on the video at tony martignetti dot com and then go to Brussels, Belgium, and get some for yourself. Just keep your eyes in your mouth close. That’s all on DH, that is Tony’s Take two. Let’s do the live. Listen, 11 the, uh And you know what comes after that? So the live love goes out. Thank you for listening. I’m grateful. The live love to those of you listening at, uh, Friday 1 p.m. Eastern time. And whatever time zone you might be in, the love goes out to you and the podcast pleasantries My gratitude to our over 13,000 podcast listeners. Sometimes I wonder why you stay with with all the I don’t know the talking about piss and everything else. But you have you have you still here? So the pleasantries go to you and you should stay. Don’t Don’t wonder why Leave? Leave the wondering and the and the worrying to me about that you just stick around Ana. Now here is from 19 NTC. Your normal is my trigger. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 19 1990 Si. That’s the non-profit Technology Conference 2019. We are in Portland, Oregon, at the convention Center. This interview, like all our 1990 si interviews, is brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. My guests now our Barbara Grant. She is CEO of Crux Consulting Consortium sitting next to me and even Gourlay. She’s director of information systems at Food Lifeline Barbara Evey kruckel. Thank you. Thanks for having a pleasure. Pleasure. Your topic is a little provocative Little bit, er when you’re normal is my trigger unpacking multiple generations and white privilege. Let’s start with you. What? Uh what do we need to know? Give us Give us the headline in the lead. Well, what’s going on here? You fundamentally, you have a normal that you view the world of particular way. That is your way of viewing the world. And you think that’s the real way. That’s the truth of the world on you interact with it like it’s absolute, but you don’t appreciate. You do sort of live your life like other people’s normals of the same as your normal. And that causes real problems for people, particularly in regards to white, privileged white. People think that they’re the normal and they don’t attend to the concerns of people of color, and people of color lose out, significantly weaken all these different measures of public health will show that. But it’s very hard for people to see why their behavior is white people houses impact on people of color, and we’re going to delve into the dynamics, underlie the and really give people some access to engaging with how that their behavior has these negative impacts on the world. Okay, what what are some of these negative impacts? Barber? Well, I think that first we start with generations. And so what we’re trying to look at is that if my definition of What is normal is not your definition of what is normal. So, for example, what should be on a recruitment form like if you’re filling out a job application, should you ask people for their gender or not? So some generations would think? Of course, it’s a recruitment Forman application. You put your gender male, female, other generations would think, Why are you assuming my gender? Other people, other generations might think I don’t want to work here because clearly you’re more interested in my gender than my qualifications for the job. And so part of what we’re looking at is it’s not about one thing being bad or good. It’s about looking just to understand. The fundamentals, like Evil is saying, is that there are different definitions of normal and they shape your judgments and the shape your behaviour. And how can we look at that together? In-kind oven on blaming context because too often when we try to talk across differences, what we find is that people are talking, blaming like I think this is normal. You think that’s normal and I’m judging you is wrong. Uh, without trying to make excuse, though. But if we’re talking about across the generations. It’s what those of us and the older generations were brought up with Your butt s o to not make its use something but we can relearn wear depends on which people you’re tryingto hyre were trainable were trainable. Well, I think I just take it from a perspective of utilization based perspective. If you’re trying to hire people who aren’t exactly like you, it might be useful to understand what they think is normal because those are the people you’re trying to hyre those people are trying to work with. It’s not like what you think is wrong or how you were brought up is wrong. It’s just now there are five generations in the workplace, maybe for the first time in human history, because we’re all living longer and we’re not leaving. And we’re actually caring what younger kids kick would think. And another traditions. Other generations, you know, people who are younger really haven’t been accorded a voice, and people who are older either died sooner or left the workplace. So now we have five generations, all of which have been shaped by different understandings of what’s normal and so part of what we’re trying to do is to say these air who were working with on purpose. And so how do we create a workplace that is inclusive and gets the job done that we want? E. What is this normal that we’re talking about? If everyone’s normal is different or their cohorts that so you just coalesce around sort of more or less together. But But as an individual, what’s what goes into my normal? What goes into your normal what? What’s the normal? What are we talking about? Yeah, because you don’t you don’t think about it. It’s like you wake up in the morning and sort of put on your normal right. What is it? The world just seems to be to you a particular way. And the way that it seems to you isn’t necessarily the same way it seems. Other people want me to think about it. I mean, I don’t get too conceptual, but it’s an interesting talking to delve into right, like the context of your world and the content of your world are different things. If you’re a man, you have a view of the world in an expectation of what public safety feels like So it’s you know, too. Am your your friend’s house. You don’t call for a cab. Gonna walk home like it’s an hour. Like as a man, you have a view of whether that’s safe or not, and you’ll have your own opinion of it. If you’re a woman, you’ll have a very different view of that. Now there’s no Is there a reality or whether it is or isn’t safe to walk home? No, there’s no actual like, objective measure of what safety looks like, But I’m a lot of people don’t really understand it. Don’t appreciate that. They do have these. These contexts they view the world through. When you actually start attending to them, you realize that it’s not just like a couple of things. You have this entire world view on this entire perspective that informs everything about your existence, and you’ve probably never thought about it. Once you start thinking, you start finding things that you wouldn’t choose to believe. You know you you have come to believe that based upon experiences that you’ve had and lessons that you’ve learned and you pick up these ideas and you know it’s really good work to do that reflection figured out because it’s not just about race. I mean, it certainly has an impact on race, but it can affect your relationships that can affect your success in business. Your coworkers, like everything that you do in you, your life is in form. But this context and doing the work of digging into it’s really important. We like to look at it from levels in your workplace. In your non-profit. There are things that people you’re trying to attract, people you’re trying to retain professional development, how fast people are promoted, what’s appropriate use of technology in the workplace, What’s appropriate professional behavior, what’s appropriate communication, all of these things of what is appropriate in the workplace, these air. What you think is normal is common sense, and so, but that normal common sense is different, according to these different five generations. And we think it’s pretty funny because we catch ourselves all the time saying, Oh, I guess I thought I just what I thought right? But But it’s not funny when it happens in a space where the dominant normal gets to decide. Like I might think, it’s funny that you think that, but if you are in the dominant position, then that’s what it is. It’s gonna happen. So part of what we try to do is to just open up the conversation so that its future oriented decisions, instead of how we’ve always done it in the past. I had a panel last year at NTC, and, uh, it was related to this topic, and the subject of job descriptions came up, and it was the use of the word professional. You know, a professional makes makes a professional appearance. Yeah, well, that exclude, I think the guests. It was a panel of, I think there were three think there were three. And it was, I think, was Raja Agarwal on everything. He was sitting next to me and he said, So that excludes everybody with dreadlocks in a white privilege world. Those are not professional. So does that exclude everybody who’s black because their hair is different and you know, so that’s where that dominant. But the perspective is different than a note. A new miracle perspective. Yeah, but just to use the word professional, I mean, it’s an office. I do want people to be professional, but then, you know, professional appearance. You know that’s different than comporting yourself as a professional. You don’t even need to say professional. In the job description, you can consult season, think out of an interview. So it’s fun when you start scratching away at that word like professional like, What does it mean to be profession? Doesn’t mean, like no skilled at using office communication tools for understanding. I was 14 XL, but doesn’t mean where’s a shirt and tie e mean it does mean those things, but unless you actually do the work of unpacking it, you don’t know what you mean. And it could be really detrimental to people like my own personal experience. I’m originally from Ireland. Dahna immigrated United States and was about 20 because I immigrated. I interrupted my college experience, and I never actually finished college. But a lot of job descriptions will say, you know, college degree required, and that’s that’s an assumption that people make about, like hiring that that’s a normal for people that if you’ve been to college, you’re there somehow qualified or somehow more capable of doing a particular job. Now I like, almost finished going. I was like one semester away from getting done and I have no regrets about coming to United States like that was absolutely the best decision I made. It was totally worth giving up, called my degree for. But you just got to really take the time to really investigate what you really mean by what you say because it has an impact on people and those impacts show and they’re often invisible. I think if you talk to people, United States, no one’s ever well, very few people will actually claim to be racist or will endorse racist perspectives. Or, you know, it’s very, very rare to find someone who’ll do it. If we do find them, we isolate them pretty quickly. But racism’s vivid and clear it. She was really clearly in the statistics. So how does it keep happening, like word of these, these negative influences come from. You have to be able to look beyond the surface in order to see that, and that’s where this but this work is about. I think what’s really important about the generations conversation, why we’re using this as a vehicle for talking about privileges, that this is a fun and accessible, an easy way to get into this conversation is not anywhere near is. Confronting is talking about race. It can be challenging, but generations it’s it’s a It’s a fun conversation right on dure. Your topic is generations and white privilege. So let’s overlay the white privilege to this. But now we’re at a disadvantage. There’s three white folks talking about white privilege. Well, one of the things we found is that oftentimes one of the dominant mentalities is that people of color should help us talk about white privilege because we don’t know how, which is once again, kind of layering a burden there. So part of one of the thing you just said is why people we don’t ever learn to say the word white like that’s because it was normal. Like if you look, if you read a book, a novel, the characters air never described by the color of their skin unless it’s not white because, like so you don’t say, he walked into the station, his skin was pasty, like the underside of a dead halibut. You know instead, But you would say like this. He walked in, She walked in, they sat down. He set down his skin, was dark, like cinnamon ice cream or something like it’s only described if it’s not white. So these are the kinds of things that that why people have to be able to start talking about. And so but no one ever talks about generational differences too much, either. So we tried it. We call it Training wheels is like if if I can try to talk to you across a different generation if I’ve had people come up. I was working with the A different client group last year and someone came up and said, You know, now I understand how to talk to my son, who’s been living in my basement, and I feel like we’ve never been able to talk to each other like I get it. Our definitions of normal are different. You know, there’s a There’s a lot of desire as what we call a part of a week circle. So, like we are all different generations. But we’re part of a family or we’re part of one circle we already identify as though we were just different, whereas across other things, like race or class or other dominant privileges way don’t see ourselves as a wee we see is us and those people. And so part of what we’re trying to do is even within our circle of who we already think is us. How do we talk across differences well and respectfully. And then how do we use that experience to try to talk across these bigger differences that are a little bit more charged? What kind of worker is the two of you doing together? You’re doing work for food, Lifeline Barbara. Yes. So I’m a consultant. I worked with international NGOs, NGOs, local domestic non-profits, and one of my clients for many years has been food lifeline, which is where I met Yves. And so there was even even if it’s even, that’s right. And so so and our work together is been issues around, trying to change a culture within their non-profit and also doing a move and trying to figure out how we do that move in a more inclusive way to this glorious, gorgeous new hunger solution center that they’ve just taken off the ground. And so a lot of my work has been with this system, and so we met, and here we are. Okay, um, and how did this topic Come, Teo, how each of you get drawn to this topic in the concerns. So one of things I’ve been studying since I do work with many non-profits and associations across the country has been this kind of she drops out in there. This this as I worked with years of all stripes and sizes and you’ll find me at six for 62 What I’ve found is that for the last 6 62 5 to 10 years, people have been very anxious about all these generations in the workplace and also about the great retirement fear that all these people are going to retire. We’re gonna have a leadership gap. And so I started studying what that meant to have a generation retire and what the composition was of the domestic and international non-profit in particular Workforce were all these leaders about to leave what was gonna happen with succession planning and became very interesting to see that they didn’t leave and then the next generation. So those easters air, now 26 at the top. And so now there are people in 1/5 generation. So everyone was all like, oh, skies falling is going to be four generations. And then these people are going to leave. They didn’t leave and these guys came. And so it’s a phenomenon. Now that is very interesting. And people are trying to figure out who are you trying to hyre? And it’s a very different mindset of tryingto hyre now when you’re trying to hyre outside of an assumed normal of a generation, and that could be across lots of industries and sectors. So I was drawn to it by my clients who were concerned and also, by finding it very like. It’s an interesting inflection point in our history as a sector time for our last break. Its text e-giving They have the five part email, many course to dispel the myths around mobile giving. You get one part each day it’s over five days soon as you sign up, they start coming. And then four days, Uh, we say four days hence, yeah, in four days hence, right that the right, Yeah, Hence his post post fact, post facto four days. Expos facto of the of the sign up, you get the remaining courses one a day. It’s an average of one per day. One is also the mode and one is also the median as well as the average. That’s what you get per day after you sign up for the course. What you do at by texting npr to 444999 And we’ve got butt loads. More time for your normal is my trigger. You baby. How about you? Barbara knows me from Food Lifeline and in my work, I’m the director of information systems for Food Lifeline. And what you do in that role is not only manage the system, but also the Iast systems. All the databases that base are works. I’m involved in every aspect of the organizations activity, right from our entry level staff and our new stuff right up to the executive team and then the CEO. So I cross the generations. Anyway, when we started talking about doing this the session together, some of the real issues that I have in my work came up in our discussions, and we really got into them and use this methodology to address those concerns. And we actually cover some of this in the presentation. And it became not just an opportunity to talk about what we love, what we what we care about, but actually to develop food lifelines business as well. So it’s really, really become really engaged in. It’s really become part of our work. Um, okay, you say, in your description, used the framework of generational understanding and predictable triggers to have deeper conversations. I paraphrased a little bit. But what is the general generational understanding of predictable triggers? Is that first of all, is that one that one one of the processors, too? So one of the things that we’ve found is that there are some predictable triggers that will show up across generations. For example, if we say Oh, you know, some of those people are so entitled there’s a whole set of people in the room that will not and laugh and say, I know you’re talking about in a whole other set of people in the room who will feel like the mute button just happened and disrespected and turned off, or one of our other favorites is when someone says, Well, this is the way we’ve done it successfully for the past 10 years and they think that. And so I have now sealed the point and half of the other people in the room think, and so it must be a relevant. And so some of the things that I feel like the most normal thing in the world for you to say someone else receives, like like you just said something completely different. There’s a very real world challenge that I have with this with regard to training and you software. So if I had, like, a new tool like any of the vendors here at this conference, if I had their suffering, if I take this out to the staff, it’s okay. We got this great new tool. It’s going to be awesome. It’s gonna make a big difference in your work. There’s two kinds of responses I’m going to get from older people, you know, boomers and maybe Gen Xers. You’re going to say, Okay, we’re going to training, which means we have to hire a trainer. We’re gonna have a training day and a reason to calm. We’re going for coffee and bagels and everyone going to sit in chairs and listen to the training, and then we’ll go through it. When we’re done, you’re going to find her and you take a binder to death you sent in your desk and okay, you’re trained. Now go and use the software, which means no one’s trained and they just sort of sit there and stare at the screen now. But when I when I try to train people who are younger, like millennials and sisters, it’s an entirely different model on approach. They don’t need that. What they need is give me a can account. Let me access the sulfur and sit down with me for like an hour and show me the basics and then go away would be available. I want access to the knowledge base online. I want to able to watch videos on the Web site. A chat room for users is great, and it’s an entirely different model of training. And my real challenge with that is that in order to train those easters in the millennials how to use the software, which is really what I need to do because they’re the ones that are gonna be using it anyway, I have to convince the leadership that it’s okay and that it’s safe to do that. So we do the training day, we forget about it, and we trained this Easter’s. It’s that there’s a lot of different generational challenges in the workplace that we have to go. Um, but I feel like way diving into the depths of this. I mean, I feel like we’re talking around it a little bit. Are we? Are we getting to the meat of the real issues here? Well, we’re getting to the middle of a generational issue. Just be circum superficial. So one of the most important things Tony is that is just the fundamental except acceptance that you might have a different normal, that it might guide your worldview like Eve’s even example there was and then to say, Okay, so then what? What do I do if my normal is this other thing? But once you fundamentally accepted that it’s different than thinking. Well, those people are idiots, and they should just do this thing or everybody knows, or common sense. People leave that stuff behind, and then they approach the issue like, Well, then how do you do it across five generations? And that’s the attitude where we can then begin to talk about privilege and dominant privilege, because many times, if people say well, you know you’re white So therefore you’ve inherited all of the benefits of being white, and then a person of color has not. There’s all kinds of stuff that goes off in people’s minds like, Well, I’m not racist and it’s not my fault. And I worked as hard as the next person, and it’s all defensive, defensive, defensive. It’s not curious, like if we go back to the other part where we have with generations, where people are like Okay, people have different definitions of normal, what do we do next? That’s curious. That’s like saying we’re we and we have to do something forward. But when we get into issues that are more charged and that are more layered with blame and oppression and dominance, then people generally defend and any kind of diversity training or an attempt to do that generally ends up with people often feeling worse than they felt before and more blamed and more isolated. So part of what we’re trying to do is to bring these two things together and to say, if you can learn this way to move forward with curiosity, what if we took those same tools into these conversations and to say wow your experience of being a woman in the workforce is very different of being a man in the work force or your experience of being cyst. Gendered is very different of my experience of being trans or your experience of being a black woman. Professional manager Leader is very different from mine of being a white woman, professional manager, leader Like what? I work for Microsoft for 10 years and at one point in the building, I was often the only woman in the whole huge restroom. And I would get startled if I saw another woman in the restroom because it was so unused to there being another woman in the building, you know, super different, then going to the theatre where women will wait for, you know, 15 minutes and then I walk in and out of the of the restrooms, right? And so So this is just something to start noticing that your experience is different and if you can fundamentally just accept that without blame, then you can say, OK, what is the workforce we want of the future? And how do we acknowledge that our experiences have been different? Someone may have had a glass escalator and somebody else has been clawing through a ceiling. But once were here together in this organization or in this moment in history, How do we lean towards each other with curiosity? Even you mentioned earlier? I think he said some of the physical manifestations of this among the people who are not the elite in the privileged. Yeah. Oh, our sound like you were referring to research of physical physical manifestations of this in terms of health outcomes. Yeah. Yeah. So, like life acceptance E on DH infant mortality or 22 rates. You can really see health outcomes on people of color in United States. What? We would actually we’re just setting this. Yes, we were talking about the impact of red lining on communities of color. Um, throughout the sort of last century, people color, black people couldn’t buy houses in neighborhood hoods and the weapon looking buy houses. And if people did buy houses in those neighborhoods, white people would leave. And judging the price of the property, this isn’t long term impact on the ability of their children to go to college or, you know, be set up for life. And so you can actually check? Was it like net and come or no wealth for for people, white people have a lot of black people I think is actually about xero. On average, across the population is a really impact on people’s lives and immeasurable. We still have another five minutes or so together. What else can we say about this topic? One thing that I think is really important for me, for your listeners and non-profits is like Take a look at all of the issues you have in your organization. Like what’s holding you back in good terms of growth, that every step of the way you’re going to find some touch of technology and each of those things. I think that’s a contemporary phenomenon. This is this is the era that we live in, and if any of those areas, if you investigate, I bet you find generations underlying those conversations. This is this is not just like an abstract thought exercise around understanding privilege. This is very riel way have, ah, my organization. We’re dealing with a challenge right now. Unlike who makes decisions about process about system, Wei have many experienced people who might be sort of boomers or Gen Xers have been trained, and they’ve learned their skills at a time whenever technology wasn’t a major part of their work. They’re now dealing with that migration to a system that’s very much technology based there, having to get on databases if they’re fundraisers they’re dealing with, like online giving an email and that kind of stuff ability. Younger people who are native in that in that world and they’re coming in wanting to participate, expecting different systems, to be available to them and then not having access to that expertise. It’s challenging. I think we’re going to see in a lot of non-profits shift from expert expert lead programs, toe having technology and performance management systems and business intelligence systems driving management for organizations. There’s a major cultural shift happening in the realm of technology. You’re gonna have to understand how that impacts in the community and the culture of your organization or to be able to deal with it. And one of the things I was I’d say that builds right off of what you talked about about digital natives, one of the one of the huge questions that’s happening right now in our culture in this country is, What does it mean to be native? And what does it mean to be an immigrant or a refugee? And who do we let in? What does that mean? Toe let in and when we look a technology across generations, there’s a concept of at one point people became digital natives. And that’s somewhere in the middle of the millennial generation, where you were born into a system where you had rights and you had privileges and you understood the language. And often when I’m working with people with generations, I’ll say, What does it mean to be a native citizen of a country? And so people will say what you have rights, You know where your addresses and even comes down to, you know, the right language to use. So first generation children well often have to inform. Their parents know you don’t have to say that to school or a siren doesn’t mean that they start interpreting the culture for their parents. And so it’s the same thing with digital native kids who basically interpret the culture for us and say, Oh, no, let me fix it for you. Just hand it over and so but this whole idea of understanding what it means to be in a land a digital land in which you are not native, in which you feel anxious where you feel like things, are at risk, your privacy is at risk. Your data is at risk. You don’t know what you’re doing. You feeling that and allowing people to have some time to think about that generationally. It’s slightly safer. But then it it it rolls back around to say So. What does that mean when we think about who has rights and privileges in our whole society, and what does that mean? And how are we translating that with each other and thinking about, for example, in public education, when your children are your English speakers and the parents may speak primarily another language? How do we think about is our system in English only system in school? Or do we think if we really want family engagement, we have to reach across that in some way? We’ve to begin to think differently. So a lot of the things that we’re talking about with generations and technology while we’re here, you know what the anti unconference and we both have technology backgrounds. And so he’s There are people to some extent, but we also are, you know, we are. You know, Eva and I are not exactly the norm in many other ways in our lives as well. And so we have the experience of not being the dominant norm in a space. And so we bring that to this conversation, not just to say that we’re white people, so we know everything about people of color instead, what we’re saying is that we’re white people and we understand what we’ve taken for granted as the dominant normal. And and we’re trying to figure out a way for people to have conversations that doesn’t involve blame and separation. We’re often times it’s like what I call the diversity sidecar, where you take all the people of color and organization. You put them on the diversity committee, and you kind of sideline them from the main business, right? Right. And so instead, what we’re trying to talk about is what if we were all You know what I call that? I call that divers Committee. Yes, they’re not. They’re not doing diversity for the organization. They are a showpiece committee that is diverse. I call that the divers committee and many of my colleagues who are amazing engineers or consultants or leaders or architects or artists. They’re not invited first to be on the top engineering or architect or artist committee. They’re invited to be on the diversity committee as an assumption because there are people of color. And so part of what I think we have to do is to begin talking about this because it’s not just because what we want to do is tow have organizations and a society where people are able to bring their best expertise into the space and we can talk about it. We’ve got to leave it there. All right, thank you. She’s Barbara Grant, CEO of Crux Consulting Consortium. And next to her is evey Gourlay, director of Information Systems of Food Lifeline Ladies. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks to both of you, This is non-profit Radio coverage of 2019 the non-profit Technology Conference from Portland, Oregon. This interview, like all brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits Macon impact. Thanks. So much for being with us next week. E-giving Tuesday with Asha Curren It’s not too early to start your planning. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you Find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner’s Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made easy text. NPR, too, that for 44999 creative producers Clam Meyerhoff Sam Lee Board says the line producer Thie shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. We’re a little late there, Scotty. Yeah, big non-profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking Alternate network way You are listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in sometime potentially ater Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned Potential Live life your way on talk radio dot N Y c Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Thie Best designs for your Life Start at home. I’m David here. 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Researcher Bias In Stelter Planned Giving Report

Beware courtesy of xadrian on Flickr

Bias is apparent in The Stelter Company’s newest research report, “What Makes Them Give?” The planned giving study recommends expanding communications and outreach to younger and less loyal prospect pools than traditionally thought appropriate. Much of Stelter’s business is communications, direct marketing and outreach.

It’s in their corporate interest to encourage charities to reach out to larger pools of prospects by direct mail, email, calling and website engagement because they have business lines in all those methods.

For lots of decades, Planned Giving pros have promoted estate and retirement plan gifts to prospects in their mid-50s and over. That’s the age at which it’s been believed people generally begin to think of their long-term plans as charitable vehicles. Before then, plans are for protection of family and gifts to loved ones, for the most part.

Also, being in the will or IRA of a 40-something is less valuable than a 70- or 80-year-old because of the vastly greater likelihood that the younger person’s charitable interests will change–perhaps many times–before their death in 50 or 55 years.

Stelter’s research recommends starting promotion at age 40, claiming 60% of best prospects are age 40 to 54. That conclusion may be completely correct.

But because of the company’s bias I cannot rely on their study as evidence of trends that suggest activities that will increase Stelter’s revenue.

Along with direct and email products and campaigns, the company offers a calling program. The more people charities mail to, email and call, the more potential revenue for Stelter.

That creates researcher bias, notwithstanding the research was conducted by a different company hired and paid by Stelter.

“What Makes Them Give?” also suggests expanding Planned Giving prospect pools by setting aside beliefs about donor loyalty as a predictor of giving.

To turn prospects into donors you have to communicate with them, so larger prospect pools benefit Stelter’s bottom line.

The study includes a good number of recommendations unrelated to expanded communications and outreach, including rethinking recognition societies. Those are untainted by Stelter’s bias.

I’d love to expand Planned Giving prospecting. I really would.

We don’t yet have objective research concluding that would be a wise investment of charities’ hard-earned money and limited time.