Tag Archives: 21NTC

Nonprofit Radio for April 12, 2021: Build Lasting Supporter Relationships & Love Your Donors Using Data

My Guests:

Craig Grella & Wendy Levine: Build Lasting Supporter Relationships
Craig Grella and Wendy Levine, both from Salsa Labs, want you to build strong relationships all the time, not only when you’re fundraising. Their savvy strategies come from their own work building relationships for Salsa. This is part of our 21NTC coverage.

 

 

 

 

Shoni Field & Jen Shang: Love Your Donors Using Data
Nonprofit Radio coverage of 21NTC continues. When you are fundraising, data that tells us restoring your donors’ sense of well-being and identity will increase their giving and engagement. There’s a lot of fascinating research to unpack and apply, so join Jen Shang, the world’s only philanthropic psychologist, from the Institute for Sustainable Philanthropy, and Shoni Field from the British Columbia SPCA.

 

 

 

 

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[00:02:18.94] spk_0:
Oh hi Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of benign prostatic hyperplasia. If you leaked the idea that you missed this week’s show, build lasting supporter relationships, craig, Grella and Wendy Levin, both from salsa labs. Want you to build strong relationships all the time. Not only when your fundraising, they’re savvy strategies come from their own work building relationships for salsa. This is part of our 21 NTC coverage and love your donors using data. Non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC continues when you are fundraising data that tells us restoring your donors sense of well being and identity will increase their giving and engagement. There’s a lot of fascinating research to unpack and apply. So joined gen XIANg, the world’s only philanthropic psychologist from the Institute for sustainable philanthropy and Shoni field from the british Columbia, s p C A and tony state too planned giving accelerator were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. Here is build lasting supporter relationships. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc. The 2021 nonprofit technology conference were sponsored at 21 ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c O. My guests now are Craig, Grella and Wendy. Levine. Craig is content marketer at salsa Labs and Wendy is marketing director at salsa Labs. Craig, Gorilla Wendy. Levine, Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:22.94] spk_3:
Thank you. Happy to be here.

[00:02:24.50] spk_2:
Thank you. Thanks for having us

[00:02:38.24] spk_0:
on My pleasure to have you both. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us, your expertise on beyond fundraising, building lasting relationships with your supporters. Wendy. Let’s start with you what as an overview, what could nonprofits be doing better relationship wise do you to feel?

[00:04:29.14] spk_3:
So we work with lots of nonprofits and I’ll just start by saying, you know, as a marketing team. It’s also, we’re kind of in a unique position because we are responsible for marketing. It’s also doing all the normal things that, you know, our marketing team does, but because our software helps nonprofits market their mission and engage with donors, we often work with those nonprofit clients to help them in their marketing efforts. So that was the genesis of this workshop for the intent conference because when we work with nonprofits we see so many of them doing so many amazing things on. And yet there are everyone has their, excuse me there. Their holes are their blind spots in their in their process. So our workshop dealt with um formalizing a content development process and content calendar. Um, craig does this for salsa. So he does a great job of you know, making sure that we are talking to the right people at the right time, that we have the right content in terms of blog posts and you guys and social posts and that’s a lot of work. So when a nonprofit who may not have a whole marketing team, um like we do tries to do those things, um sometimes things get missed. So our workshop was all about providing people content, calendar templates and talking to them about things that they can do to make the whole process of building new content easier. We talked about reusing old content, um repurposing content that you have developed before, how to improve message targeting and how to do all of those things in uh simple ways that can be done with smaller teams.

[00:04:45.64] spk_0:
Well. And we’re going to talk about those things here. You know, you’re not gonna just tease.

[00:04:48.79] spk_3:
Uh,

[00:05:11.44] spk_0:
listen, I’m not gonna let you just tease non propagated. Listen and say this is what we talked about, but we’re not talking about here. So we’re gonna talk about those things to, uh, so craig so you are, you are, it sounds like you are the writer, the content marketer for salsa, and we can all benefit from the wisdom of the corporate marketing team at salsa. Yes,

[00:05:28.94] spk_2:
yes, definitely. I think to kind of piggyback on, on what Wendy was saying, the impetus for this. Uh, this presentation was, I think nonprofits can learn from the more corporate marketing. I think even if you look at advocacy, I think nonprofits can learn from uh, political advocacy, which is kind of, you know, they use their email lists like a. T. M. Machines sometimes. That’s the way it feels like. Uh,

[00:05:42.71] spk_0:
and then I think you have a background in the Democratic Party in pennsylvania. Right? That’s right, yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:09.94] spk_2:
And and I think really it happens on both sides of the aisle. I think when you look at a lot of advocacy campaigns, a lot of political campaigns, I think they tend to look at their lists in that way they go to their list more often with fundraising than other messages. Or they wrap their message in a fundraising appeal. I think nonprofits can kind of get stuck in that rut as well where, uh, they’re using their list more often as appeals. So this presentation was a way for us to say, how do you develop those deeper relationships? How do you go beyond just the fundraising appeal? How do you engage all year long? How do you, uh, take that relationship to the next level or maybe change relationships wherever your supporters are with you in their relationship now, maybe there’s a way to move them to a different relationship that involves other type of work or a different relationship with your work. So that was kind of the idea behind the presentation and how we put together the different steps and tips and things like that.

[00:07:41.04] spk_0:
Now, I suspect, you know, most dogs are doing some of this, like, you know, uh, let’s, let’s assume that an organization has a newsletter, whether digital or print, you know, and they may or may not include an appeal. But, you know, I’d like to think that there are messages going out that aren’t all that aren’t all fundraising related, I mean, but you’re, you’re sounds like you and Wendy would like us to put this into a coordinated calendar, so we’re not just thinking of it at the beginning of the month. What are we gonna do this month or, you know, even the beginning of the quarter, but we haven’t laid out for like a year or something. Uh, so be more sophisticated about it. But then also it sounds like you’re encouraging a good amount of messaging that’s not fundraising related, has no appeal affiliated with it. It’s just purely informative. Is that okay? Is that are we are we wasting? You don’t feel like we’re wasting opportunities to communicate, wasting opportunities to fundraise if we, if we send something out that doesn’t have an appeal in it.

[00:09:18.34] spk_3:
No, absolutely. I think, um, and this became, I think this came more into focus when the pandemic hit as well. Um, Some organizations, I actually had an easier time fundraising, but many had a more difficult time, fundraising really depended on where they were and what their mission was. But, um, it’s, we always talk about engaging with your supporters outside of fundraising and the importance of connecting with your supporters, making sure they are, are connected with your organization in a way that makes them, um, use the term sticky. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re connected to you and, and they’re not gonna just, you know, I’m going to give you money this month. I’m gonna give somebody else money next month. I know who you are, I know who your people are. I really think that what you’re doing is great. I I understand, you know, your mission and and how you work with people. I know the names of some of your staff members, The more that you can connect with those supporters, the more they’re going to stay with you, the more they’re going to give when they can, they’re going to volunteer when they can. And that became even more important during the pandemic because some people weren’t able to give, some organizations, needed people to give more and you know, appealing to, um, people’s connection with the organization that you’ve built up over time is just so important and not just now, but even more so now I think.

[00:11:47.84] spk_2:
And I think for me it’s, it’s kind of human nature. Right? The first time you meet someone, you’re not going to ask him to marry you right there on the spot. I think there’s got to be that relationship development. Uh, there are different steps along the line, obviously that you need to take to get to know each other better. And I think the same is true for any kind of communication, whether you’re at A for profit company, a Fortune 500 company or a mom and pop type of nonprofit, uh, obviously you have a little bit of a head start because that person has found you. Maybe they joined your list or maybe they came to an event, whether it’s in person or virtual. So you have a little bit of interest there. But with so much noise out there these days, whether you’re trying to connect on social media or even through a podcast, there’s, you know, there’s a lot of noise out there and, and you have to rise above that and you rise above that by maintaining that constant relationship. And you can’t only ask for money. It can only be volunteer appeals. I can’t only be, you know me, me, me, me. I need, I need, I need you have to find a little bit of the reasons why those people connected with you and and speak to that and you have to offer a little bit of yourself too. And there are lots of ways that, that nonprofits can do that. And um, we like to it like you said at the beginning, I think this question was, uh, we do like to be organized with that. Uh, it’s a matter of sometimes nonprofits just looking at what they have, you know, oftentimes when I’ve taught courses, courses on how to create content. One of the things I hear most often is, I don’t know what to write or I don’t know what kind of content to put out there. What will resonate with people. And uh, so that holds them back and then they do nothing. And that’s obviously not a solution. So where we start with with this presentation and where we like to start in general, is to just go through the content you’ve created through the years, we tell nonprofits you’ve probably got hundreds, if not thousands, of pieces of content out there. Look at your old blog posts. Look at some of the presentations you’ve done. If you’ve gone to conferences or presented, look at your social media posts, look at documents you’ve put together. If if you have programs, you probably have program information, put some of that together and turn it into something written that you can offer people, uh, and, and start there. And then once you’ve gathered all that information, put it together in a content calendar and be really deliberate about how you’re exposing that material to your audience in order so that it makes sense. And it drives a little bit of

[00:12:06.04] spk_0:
engagement, which is, which is much easier to lay out when you see it in a calendar rather than just you just kind of thinking, well I will do this in May and then this will be in june and you know, but you can be more, you’re more deliberate about it more, I think more sophisticated about it. If you if you when you commit something to writing it makes it makes you think about it more. That’s exactly right. I have a written and

[00:12:29.94] spk_2:
not only that, but you can also add responsibility and whether you have a big team or a small team, you can put names to the tasks that people need to do. You know, tony is going to do this article by this date and get it up on social by this date and there’s a little bit of responsibility there for the work that you’re doing, which I think makes people complete those tasks uh a better way.

[00:12:49.14] spk_3:
Yeah. And frankly, I think it makes it almost easier and simpler so that, you know, it doesn’t seem like quite as big of a mountain to climb. You know, I’ve got all this content to create from this quarter or this year, um, when it’s on a piece of paper or in a spreadsheet. And it’s something that just seems more manageable frankly

[00:13:09.94] spk_0:
when anything you want to add about the content calendar before we move on to segmenting your, your

[00:13:15.67] spk_3:
supporters.

[00:13:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, Well I’m willing it’s okay. I feel like we’ve covered the content calendar enough. I’m not trying to, you know, I think so. I think it’s, it’s something

[00:13:50.34] spk_3:
that a lot of nonprofits, um, do. Um, but we also see a lot of nonprofits that don’t do a content calendar and it’s, it’s not difficult. It’s just taking that first step. So we provided people templates, but just just getting it down and finding a way to formalize the process of putting a content together. It’s not that difficult. And it makes a huge difference

[00:14:00.44] spk_0:
helps you organize too. So you can see blog post, you know, maybe some other section on the website newsletter, email, social, social, facebook, social instagram, social twitter, but etcetera. And

[00:14:51.74] spk_3:
it also helps you identify holes in your content. So, for example, um, just as an example, we have some clients who, um, whose mission is focused on raising funds for medical research for a certain condition or, or issue. And they have content that they create for patients and their families, but they also have content that they create for, um, you know, medical experts and they’ll run medical conferences for doctors. Uh, so, um, understanding that they’ve created enough content for each of those groups is also important in having it in a calendar. Um, so you’re, you know, another organization might have volunteer, uh, content aimed at volunteers and content aimed at, at supporters or donors or community members. So just seeing that now, think about what your goals are.

[00:15:12.24] spk_0:
However you’re gonna segment, right? It’s all very orderly. Now. You mentioned templates. I don’t like to tease nonprofit radio listeners without without providing the substance. So can we get this template? Is this somewhere on salsa site or somewhere else? Where? Where?

[00:16:10.04] spk_2:
Yeah, So we we put up a landing page that’s completely in gated as part of the NtC presentation. Uh, it’s salsa Labs dot com forward slash 21 N. T. C. And there’s a little bit of a workbook that goes with the presentation and then of course the presentation slides, PowerPoint and pdf, I think, uh, and the workbook falls along the different sections of the presentation. So the first section is what we just talked about, which is to uh, figure out what you have. You know, go through, take stock of your content, your library, that kind of thing. The second part talks about putting together your calendar and segmenting. And then the third part jumps into really getting organized and then engaging or further engaging, going a little bit further than what you’ve done in the past. And to kind of tag onto the last part you said about or what Wendy said about the content calendar. Oftentimes we see nonprofits look for these templates. Uh, and they’re really just hashtags, you know, if the only communication you’re doing on social media is to put up a post about ST patty’s day or easter or things like that, you need to go a little bit further

[00:16:34.84] spk_0:
in your engagement. That’s not that’s not educating folks. That’s right. On your, on your mission, your work and your values. That’s not going to make them sticky because they can get easter messages anywhere.

[00:16:37.11] spk_2:
That’s right. And they likely are

[00:16:39.75] spk_0:
and they are.

[00:16:40.39] spk_3:
And we’ll tell you though, that the most engagement we get on our social posts are when we post pictures of our dog, there is some value that All

[00:16:49.42] spk_0:
right. Well, I don’t know what that says about the salsa Labs content, you know, talking to the content team. So I’m not gonna All right. Believe that their salsa labs dot com forward slash 21 ntc for the template that craig just talked us through. Let’s go to, uh, a little on segmentation. Who wants to want to kick us off the value of and the depth you should go to. Who wants to

[00:19:35.74] spk_2:
be sure. I’ll take it when it comes to segmentation. The idea is to be able to understand which audience member wants to receive, which message at what time and by what medium there are a lot of different mediums. We can deliver messages through these days and everyone’s busy and like I said before, there’s a lot of noise. So you need to find your way through that noise and the way we believe you do it is through personalization. If you can understand who wants to receive the message when they want to receive it and where they want to receive it, you will have a higher engagement with that person. And this is kind of goes back to the idea of just shooting out a ST Patty’s day message, right? I mean you might get 50 or 60 likes, but if those people never volunteer or they never donate or they never come to an event, what’s the point? Um, you know, it may be, hey, let’s put out a nice message and that’s fine. But at some point you need to generate people to support your mission, whatever that means. So we like to segment in a couple different ways. One of course is looking at what you have in your own crm or your own list and trying to understand demographics about that person and to be able to split them into some sort of discernible category. You know, hey, we’ve got donors here, We have volunteers or we have people who just engage with us on social media. And then if you are doing a lot of sharing on social, which many groups are really trying to match your organization’s message to the right social network and you’ve got people out there who, you know, maybe they have a very intelligent audience, or maybe they have a very specific demographic in their audience and they completely lining up to the wrong network and sharing a message at the wrong time. Maybe they’re sharing it once, instead of sharing it four times over a month or two months. So that different people see that message. So uh part of the workbook that we put together is going a few different places through your analytics and really understanding what your audience looks like and taking some critical uh peaks at your audience and the demographics of your audience, looking through your Crm, and uh figuring out what’s important to your organization. And how do you label those people so that you understand the message that they want, where they’re going to be and then where you can get that message to them.

[00:19:43.64] spk_0:
Mhm. When you want to add to segmentation.

[00:21:01.04] spk_3:
Yeah, I mean there’s it’s a little bit science and a little bit art, frankly, I think. So, there’s a balance between having too many segments and too many groups and having too few segments or groups. So um if you’ve got groups of supporters, there are so many groups of supporters that you’re sending very similar messages to some of the groups that you probably have too many. Um it may be difficult to handle all the messaging. Uh if you have too few groups, the messages aren’t targeted enough aren’t interesting enough to each of those groups. So as you know, Craig was talking about measuring engagement on social media and and looking at analytics for your emails and things like that. And that’s very important. And that’s all the science part. And then there’s a little bit of art uh in terms of, you know, where the messaging can be split, where the different messages make the most difference on how you engage with these folks, what words you use, what you test. Um, so, you know, I think it’s, I think it’s a little bit of both. And it just takes, you know, not nonprofits know their supporters, Right? So it’s really just a matter of sitting down and looking at, um, where they’re engaging, what they’re saying on social media and you know, what they’re reacting to when, when you send them emails or messages.

[00:21:47.24] spk_0:
Well, let’s probe that a little further windy in terms of knowing knowing your people suppose, you know, you know, something, you know, some people prefer email over phone calls or written mail over email, etcetera. But, and you can gauge some depth of interest by giving history, right. If if Humane society gets donations, when cat appeals from certain people and dog appeals are making this very simple. But you know, so then you know who your dog people and cat people are, but I suppose you wanna go a little further. Like uh, you know, who wants to engage on instagram or which of our programs appeal to you, You know? Uh, So I’m envisioning a survey is one possibility. What else? How else we still have a few minutes left.

[00:21:50.50] spk_3:
Okay. So that’s

[00:21:51.29] spk_0:
what you glean. How does, how does segment?

[00:22:08.74] spk_3:
That’s a really good question. It’s actually something we addressed in the presentation uh, in 10. Um, you’re right. A survey is one way and we made some recommendations. You no longer surveys where you, where you ask more than say three or four questions. Um, are something you shouldn’t do a lot of. And when you do, you should probably combine it with some sort of incentive and it doesn’t have to be, you know, you don’t pay people to take the survey, but you know, hey we’ll send you a button or bumper sticker. You know, if you fill out a survey or this is why it’s really important, you know, um at least, you know, appealing to their uh

[00:22:34.47] spk_0:
their interest in your

[00:24:16.64] spk_3:
cause. Um But we also like the kind of one question asks in emails is another way to do it. So if you’re sending emails to people, you can ask a question in the email depending on the tool that you’re using, you can put a link or button in the email and say, hey um do you have a cat or a dog or both? You know at home? Are you, are you a cat parent? Dog parent? Um have them click on that button and then now they’re in a group and the next time you send an email out, they either get a cat picture or dog picture at the top of the email. Um, and it makes a huge difference in engagement. Um, We talk a little bit also about, um, polls on social media. So that’s not going to give you on the, that’s not going to put a particular person in a group, but it can give you information on what people are interested in. So if you’re going to focus on, um, uh, one, you know, if you’re putting together advocacy petition and uh, you know, you need to understand where people are focused on what they’re most interested in. That can help also. Um, but putting a process in place so that your staff understands what kind of data you’re collecting so that when they bring up a donor record because they’re talking to the donor or they’re about to meet the donor at an event, hopefully we’re all doing that soon. Um they can look and say, oh hey, you know, we’re missing this one piece of information or these two pieces of information. So I’m gonna make a note and I’m going to ask them that when I meet with them and I’m going to put it in there and everyone needs to know to collect that information. Um and it, it just makes it easier and, and there’s a whole process we won’t go into now, but there’s a whole process of right figuring out what information is important on and which ones, which pieces of information should affect the message that you’re sending.

[00:24:32.24] spk_2:
A couple years ago, I think last week feels like a couple of years ago, Sometimes for a couple years ago you tony you did a podcast on integrating Crm with your email marketing and other digital.

[00:24:36.70] spk_0:
That was another, that was another NTC, uh 2017 18, something like that.

[00:24:42.40] spk_2:
Yeah, I think it was a while ago, but you know, it’s funny

[00:24:45.29] spk_0:
that nonprofit radio listener thank you for saying that

[00:26:25.94] spk_2:
it’s a great episode and I think it’s important here because obviously salsa is a product that tries to put together all these different marketing mediums and they work well with each other and, and there are other um products out on the market, but we also find that a lot of nonprofits have these disparate solutions and it makes things harder. It makes collecting data harder, it makes engaging harder. And when you have that uh system that pulls it all together, it makes this process easier because when you send an email and someone clicks on it, you get that information in your crm. So these one question surveys that Wendy is talking about. You can do a survey with a cat picture and someone clicks on it. You capture that data. Uh you don’t necessarily have to go to a full blown male pole or social media poll. You can do these things when you’re systems are integrated and pull that information between those systems. And then when you’ve got the information in your crm, you can then pull that information automatically into your email without having to upload or download or move data around. So It works on two ways. One it helps you understand and track the data but it also helps you personalize the emails that you do send. I think if if nothing else uh non profit should know. Just act just just do it. If you’re not sure where to start, just you know, get a message out there and just do it and then measure and track and along the lines of what Wendy said. If you are missing some information, just ask, just ask for it, create a message and send a note and remember when you do get that data to plug it back into your system so that you can use it uh in in many ways in the future. So that’s the important part

[00:26:32.44] spk_0:
two. We’re going to leave it there. Alright, alright, very much Greg gorilla, my pleasure Kraig gorilla content marketer salsa Labs, Wendy. Levin, marketing Director at salsa Labs. Thanks to each of you. Thanks very

[00:26:44.64] spk_2:
much. Thank

[00:30:41.24] spk_0:
you. My pleasure to have you and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc the 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by 20 we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break. Turned to communications relationships. We just talked about lasting relationships. The importance of building them. Turn to has them, they’ve got the relationships with journalists. So when there’s something fundraising related or philanthropic related or even more broadly, non profit related, those journalists are going to be picking up the phone when turn to calls them with you your name as a potential source, source of quotes, source of background, source of help. They pick up the phone because they’ve got a relationship with turn to, it’s the relationships that get leveraged for your benefit. Their turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony’s take two. I started the second class of planned giving accelerator this week through the accelerator. I’m helping nonprofits launch kickoff, inaugurate their planned giving programs. I’m teaching members who join with me for a year, teaching them step by step how to start and grow their plan giving programs. The classes are fun. I look forward to them every week that we get together because there’s, there’s live trainings and then there’s Ask Me Anythings and I also do a podcast for them. Yes, there’s a, there’s a, there is a podcast that you can’t hear. You got to be a member of plan Giving accelerator to hear the plan Giving accelerator podcast. You see the symmetry there. So yes, I do a podcast for them too. But these trainings and of course, so we’re getting together for the training and they ask me anythings. I look forward to them. And rumors are that the members look forward to it too. I’ve heard rumors to that effect. So it’s, it’s all, it’s really very, it’s very gratifying, rewarding. Um, it’s fun and folks are starting their plan giving programs and in the first class that started in january, they’re already getting gifts. There’s already a couple of nonprofits that each have a couple of gift commitments already, just three months into the 12-month program. So that makes it enormously gratifying. I’m getting um, my synesthesia is kicking in. I’m getting goose bumps thinking about these groups that, that already have commitments only three months into the thing. So that’s playing giving accelerator. If you think you might be interested in joining the next class, it starts July one and all the info is that planned giving accelerator dot com. Check it out for Pete’s sake. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for nonprofit radio here is love your donors using data. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc, you know what that is? It’s the 2021 nonprofit technology conference were sponsored at 21 ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. With me now are Shoni field and jen Shang Shoni is chief development officer at the british Columbia Society for the prevention of cruelty to animals. S P C A. And jen chang is a professor and philanthropic psychologist at the Institute for sustainable philanthropy. Shoni. Welcome to the show, jen, Welcome back.

[00:30:47.44] spk_4:
Thanks for having us.

[00:30:48.55] spk_3:
Thank you.

[00:31:06.24] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure uh, in talking before we started recording, uh, came to my attention that jen chang now has a british accent, which she did not have when she was on nonprofit radio many years ago when she was at indiana University. So we’ll get to enjoy that. And you’ve been how many years in the U. K. Now jen

[00:31:11.04] spk_1:
Eight years.

[00:31:13.14] spk_0:
Eight years with Adrian Sergeant. I assume he’s still at the institute.

[00:31:16.44] spk_1:
Oh yeah still living in the house to

[00:31:19.69] spk_3:
lose your

[00:31:20.19] spk_0:
house. Oh

[00:31:21.57] spk_1:
you don’t know we’re married sorry.

[00:31:23.17] spk_0:
Oh you’re more than uh philanthropic partners. Oh really? Okay. Were you married? When were you married to Adrian when you were on the show last? Uh huh.

[00:31:32.74] spk_1:
No

[00:31:34.14] spk_0:
your philanthropic psychology brought you together

[00:31:38.64] spk_1:
Absolutely really amazing

[00:31:40.94] spk_0:
mm fundraising fundraising brought you together. That’s wild. Well it’s a it’s a relationship business. So I look at you

[00:31:46.23] spk_1:
you’ve

[00:32:19.74] spk_0:
taken you’ve taken your own science to to heart and to deeper depth than than most people do. Well we’ll give give Adrian my regards, tell him. Absolutely tell him I say hello and hello from nonprofit radio he’s been a guest also. Well look at that interesting. And for those now we’re shooting with video jen has the uh suitable professorial background. There’s papers and thick books everywhere. It’s, it’s really, really quite bad. Oh yeah, there’s, there’s ghost faces up on top um and a crucifix also. So the place is blessed. You

[00:32:25.14] spk_4:
can make up anything about what we’ve got in the background. tony

[00:32:42.44] spk_0:
best mess. Yes, we’ll show me yours is uh yours is, I don’t want to say austere. It’s just uh its proper, you know, you’ve got a couple of framed items and you got a nice uh um um what we call those windows, uh,

[00:32:45.33] spk_4:
skylight,

[00:32:46.08] spk_0:
Skylight of course. Thank you at 59

[00:32:48.14] spk_4:
terrible for when there’s video because it makes the light really horrible. But radio it’s just fine. Yeah,

[00:33:20.84] spk_0:
I know yours is, yours is a like a sort of a gallery background. That’s what I would say. And shen’s is definitely Shen’s jen’s is definitely a professorial background. Okay. We’re talking about loving your donors. Your NTc topic is love your donors using data. So let’s start with Professor shang our philanthropic psychologist. One of, are you the only philanthropic psychologist in the world or just the first?

[00:33:25.74] spk_1:
I haven’t heard anybody else calling themselves philanthropic psychologists.

[00:33:38.14] spk_0:
Okay. So you’re both the first and, uh, and the only, first and only philanthropic psychologist. Okay. I love that you’re married to Adrian Sergeant. Well, that’s, you really took fundraising to new Heights.

[00:33:39.95] spk_4:
Small world fundraising. We all know each other.

[00:33:51.24] spk_0:
Rights, new depths. Yes, But they know each other quite well. Um, All right. So jenn, um, what, what can we learn from here? What, what, what, what, what are we not doing well enough with data that you want non profits to do better.

[00:34:45.14] spk_1:
Um, the first thing that we do that we don’t think nonprofits have spent a lot of time understanding is how people describe their own identities. And when I say when people describe their own identities, I don’t mean just how people describe themselves when they give as a supporter or as a donor, but how people describe themselves as a person outside of giving. Because research after research after research after research, what we found is that the descriptors that people use to describe themselves as a person are not always the same as the descriptors that they used to describe themselves when they think about themselves as a supporter. So not understanding who is the person behind the giving, I personally think is a huge missing opportunity for nonprofits to develop deeper relationship with their supporters.

[00:35:08.24] spk_0:
And what are some of these, uh, mm dis associations or in congruence sees between the way people identify themselves generally and the way they identify themselves as as donors.

[00:36:23.43] spk_1:
So one of the most consistent findings that we saw pretty much in all the data sets we have is that when people describe themselves as a person, they like to describe the morality of themselves. And usually there are nine highest frequency words that people use to describe their own morality and they are kind and caring and compassionate, generous, fair and so forth. And for most charities, you would see quite a large collection of these moral words in people’s self descriptors. But usually you see a smaller collection of these moral words appearing when people describe themselves as a supporter. So what that says to me is that when nonprofits communicate with supporters are about giving, they haven’t connected the giving to their sense of being a kind and caring and compassionate person as well as they could be. Usually you see the word generous, show up and you see the word helpful, show us show up in the descriptor of the supporters, but not the rest of the moral words.

[00:36:44.03] spk_0:
And there’s evidence that using more of the moral descriptors that the individuals would use will increase their giving.

[00:36:57.03] spk_1:
Not only it increased their giving, it also increases their psychological well being, and that is the real missing opportunity here. So when people give out of their kindness and out of their compassion, they feel better. Even when they give the same amount of money.

[00:37:39.73] spk_0:
You studied this really. You can you can gauge and Shawnee we’re gonna come to you. Of course. I I know there’s a practical application at british Columbia. I understand. I just want to flush out, want to flush out the like the limits of the, of the science and then we’ll get to the practical application. Absolutely. Um, All right. So so we can make people feel better about themselves through our non through nonprofit communications, through our communications to them. And they will then, uh, as as a result of feeling better or is it because they feel better than they will give more to our cause or we we just know those two things are correlated, but not necessarily cause and effect.

[00:37:52.63] spk_1:
We first communicate with supporters about there being a kind person and then we see giving increase and then we measure their psychological well being and we see their psychological well being increases.

[00:38:22.72] spk_0:
Okay, So we know that the giving has come first and then then from those for whom the giving has increased. Your then you’re studying their psychological well being. Yes, wow. Through our, through our communications, through our uh, is this what method of communication do we use phone letter?

[00:38:39.42] spk_1:
We have we have a few experiments in emails. We have survey evidence from donors. And we have laboratory experiments from the general population. Okay

[00:38:47.72] spk_0:
let’s turn to show me for the for the application of this uh at the british Columbia. S. P. C. A. What did you do their show me what how did you take this research and use it?

[00:41:16.41] spk_4:
So the and it feels like I’m jumping into the story halfway because I didn’t know how we got there but how we used it was um we worked with jen and her team to do um surveys and research into our donor base because you know, not every donor base is going to have the same characteristics. And so what do animal lovers in british Columbia? Um what are their characteristics of how they identify themselves as a moral person or in that sort of aspirational sense of self? Of where they’d like to? Well, I’d like to get to and supporting the S. P. C. A. As a way of getting there for them. So we we looked at our donors and came back with Jensen, looked at our donors and came and through surveys and research and came back with some some levers that resonated stronger than others with our donors. And so then we could go out and test those with, you know, our controls and then testing these levers and see where we see if we did. In fact, um originally c boosting giving over the long term, then we’ll be able to measure retention because I think with psychological well being would become an increased likelihood of wanting to stick with that relationship that makes you feel great. And so we’re able to measure um with within that field research what then when we put it into into play, what did get higher responses. And then we’ve gone back with jen and her team to study our three tests further and identify how we can build on that. Some of those tests worked better than the others. And so we that gave us some further insight into what we needed to to dig in on. And I think our our first error had probably been, we had all this learning and we wanted to use it all all at once, all in all the same time. Uh, the second sort of round of analysis really helped us be more focused and, and jen refers to allowing donors to breathe into the moment and just really be in that. And so it allow it, it allowed us to identify, yes, there’s a ton of good things we can do, but here we’re going to do three of them and we’re going to do them really well and really focused.

[00:41:18.91] spk_0:
What were some of the descriptors that you found were the levers for your, for your folks?

[00:42:43.90] spk_4:
Well, I mean, there’s so there’s the sort of descriptors of self that jen talked about in the, you know, the generous and loving and kind. Um, and then there’s one of those in particular, uh, dig into more, But there’s also these sort of, um, oh, you know, we call like victorious hope, this sense that there can be, um, that there will be success, that people have had past success in helping rescue animals and they will have future success. And, you know, this comes out of their love for animals. And so we use this victorious hope theme. Um, we we see, uh, personal sacrifice come through and we’re familiar with that from, um, you know, male direct mail that said, you know, just for the price of a cup of coffee a day, you could, you know, you could do this or you could do that, that sense of someone giving something up to get this, this outcome that they want. So we, we’ve used those a lot and we also saw the word loyal come up a lot more, um, than we had, than we had recognized was important. And it makes sense because people’s relationships with their animals are a lot about loyalty. Um, so it makes sense that they’d also value it as in a personal trait, but we’ve, uh, we had already been doing a lot of work around generous and loving and kind and we also increased that, that sense of loyalty.

[00:43:14.90] spk_0:
And now I don’t want any frustrated guests on nonprofit radio So you said, I asked you a question that came in the middle and you you uh, you thoughtfully answered answered the question, so thank you, thank you for that. But but I’ll give you the opportunity to go back if you want to take a minute and explain how you got into the jeans jeans research.

[00:43:19.10] spk_4:
I mean, this is like goes back to weigh like my beginnings as a fundraiser

[00:43:23.10] spk_0:
where a fundraiser

[00:44:01.69] spk_4:
where I got really frustrated with people’s perception of fundraisers as sort of snake oil salesman, you know, in the nonprofit world, there was the program, people who were doing the virtuous work and then there was the fundraiser, people that were, so it was sort of a little like unclean that you were trying to make people. And to me it always felt more like I was helping someone do the work that they couldn’t do themselves because their career had taken them in a different path. Like they wanted to save the environment, they wanted to help someone with the disease. They want they loved animals and wanted to help animals, but they trained as an accountant or they trained as you know, they have run their own business and so

[00:44:17.29] spk_0:
it’s very it’s empathic and magnanimous in the same that they wish they could be doing this good work. But they chose a different path. You have your like your empathetic to them.

[00:44:50.09] spk_4:
So this when I saw gems research of this sort of aspirational sense of self, this really struck a chord with me of like this is the work people wish they could be doing and we all know how we feel when we get to do something that’s really close and really important to us. It feels really great. So that just clicked with me. The sense of if we can help people do the work that they really want to do, but they haven’t been doing because something else does their pay brings their paycheck in and paying the bills is also important. Then we’re all going to be much stronger for it.

[00:44:59.69] spk_0:
And just quickly, how did you find jen’s research?

[00:45:03.89] spk_4:
I mean, this is, you know, I, I followed it around at conferences for quite a while before reaching out and saying, hey, I love this stuff. How can I, how can I do more?

[00:46:09.08] spk_0:
There’s value in conferences. Like, like ntc, there’s value in completely. Yeah, this reminds me of the work that you and I talked about when you were back in indiana before you were married to Adrian Sergeant. And we were talking about a phone research that you had done with public radio. I think it was in bloomington indiana. And you would describe women. I think it was Well, maybe you saw more of an effect that was it. You describe you saw more of an effect with women when the caller from the public radio station would use words to say. You’ve always descriptive words. You’ve always been so loyal to us. Or you’ve you’ve been such a generous supporter of us. Would you would you make a gift again? And you you saw greater giving when the right descriptors were used for those bloomington indiana Public Radio, uh, supporters. So this seems like a continuation. Uh, you know, where your again, it’s the way you describe the donors.

[00:46:16.18] spk_1:
Yes. And it’s not just the way that we describe the donors is the way that donors describe

[00:46:29.48] spk_0:
themselves themselves. Right. And then this increases their feeling of well being, more about that. How did you, how do you measure their sense of well being?

[00:46:32.08] spk_3:
So we, um,

[00:48:00.47] spk_1:
when we started measuring psychological well being, we explored a range of different scales. Um, at the moment, the the several scales that we use most often with nonprofits who haven’t started our kind of communication with supporters, our competence, autonomy and connectedness. Those are the three fundamental human needs that psychologists have studied now for decades. They in in the giving situation, they refer to, um, competence, my ability to make a difference for others autonomy. I have a voice of my own. I’m not giving out of any social pressure and connectedness. I give to make me feel connected with the things the animals, the nature and the people that I want to connect with. Those three needs. If we lack any one of them, we wouldn’t be able to experience well being. So it’s most ideal if any given giving act can simultaneously help people fulfill all three psychological well being. And those are the ones that we have now used most frequently in giving at the range. Um Lower than $500 a year.

[00:48:16.97] spk_0:
Shoni mentioned the next step being written, measuring retention. Have have you seen in your research whether there there is greater retention among the donors who whose well being we’ve we’ve enhanced.

[00:48:41.27] spk_1:
Um, so what we have seen is that um, yeah, the factors that drives giving are not always the factors that drive psychological well being, but if you can communicate with people on only the factors that drives both than that giving is more sustainable.

[00:48:51.47] spk_0:
Okay. Wait, all right. Say that one more time. You’ve been studying this for decades and I’m hearing it for only the second time in like eight years. So okay,

[00:49:35.27] spk_1:
so say, um you have five most important factors that drives giving and you have eight most important factors that drives people psychological well being. You’re five and you’re eight are not always the same, but sometimes they are three that are common between these two sets. If you only use those three to communicate with your supporters and increase giving an increase well being, then you can expect to see repeated increase in giving over time because the same three factors both increased giving and increase people’s psychological well being.

[00:50:29.66] spk_0:
Okay. I see it’s the intersection of the two little circles in the Venn diagram. Okay, You gotta explain this to a layperson, Right? All right. Thank you. Um So, were you So it’s fascinating, fascinating. Um Plus, you’re married to Adrian. I just can’t get over this how this this career has brought you together. I’m just I’m taken by all this. Um, Were you wondering about this back when you did the public radio research? Were you wondering how the description by the by the callers from the public radio station made the donors feel you knew you knew at that point? No, you weren’t thinking She’s shaking her head. You knew at that point that that describing them in certain ways could increase giving. Were you curious then, about how it made them feel? Um,

[00:50:44.26] spk_1:
I think when I first got into fundraising, it was very important to me to find some psychological motivations that can help nonprofits to raise more money. But once I realized that actually, that is not very hard, you can pretty much

[00:50:50.98] spk_0:
like, look, we’re not doing a great job in a lot of ways. Yeah,

[00:50:55.11] spk_1:
I mean, raise money by about 10 really is not hard when, you know, a little bit of psychology,

[00:51:00.15] spk_0:
you’re being more gracious, alright. A

[00:51:48.46] spk_1:
few supporters. Um But to make the giving experience meaningful for people to make the giving experience a part of people’s lives that they treasure. And to make that giving experience and experience that can allow people to experience the kind of life that they would not otherwise have. Those are the things that are hard because those are the things that do not have the the focus that they need and those are the things that I pretty much spent the last 10 years after I graduated from Indiana doing. Because those are the things that gives me meaning in doing what I do.

[00:51:59.06] spk_0:
Sure, let’s go back to you. Uh How much increased giving are you seeing you? I’m sure you’ve quantified this. What differences are you? Are you experiencing?

[00:53:05.55] spk_4:
Well, I mean, we’ve we’ve now tested it in a number of different areas. We, you know, we test it in, uh, we we use it in thank you scripts to our donors. So we don’t, you know, that’s a long term test of if we’re using this, this language consistently and everything, we we play around with the different levers on web forms, um, where we see, you know, we can extrapolate over the year if like, okay, if we use this, you know, we have a form and the form on the donor form, what difference are we going to see? Um, so it’s, you know, it’s hard once it becomes infused in everything you do, you no longer have a test in a control. You have, you have just the way you’re doing it now because you roll it out in all these different ways. I will say. I mean within that first batch of three, we paid for our research. So, you know, we got we we made an investment. We we we learned a ton. We paid for it right away. And then everything after that is, um, is bonus or, you know, is the real game. But it’s, it would be hard to measure at this point because we’re not, we haven’t infused in and everything, but we no longer have, uh, you know, we’re getting there, but we no longer have a sort of test and control where we can say this is the difference

[00:53:24.85] spk_0:
jen where can folks find your research? Is it is it somewhere that we can easily uh,

[00:53:32.90] spk_1:
most of our research is at the Institute for Sustainable philanthropy’s web site. There are freely downloadable.

[00:53:44.55] spk_0:
Okay. At the Institute for Sustainable philanthropy, um, what do you think? Should we leave it there where we explain this adequately that we picked people’s interest? I

[00:54:50.84] spk_4:
don’t I have if you have time, I have one more thing that I really think this work is sort of um a really important bridge between the sort of donor centric, the donor is always right. We’re stroking the ego of the donor and the community centric fundraising models because jen said, you know, this is I give to connect people, give to connect to to other people to the animals. And that I think in that sense of connection and love comes a more sustainable way forward because we don’t have to have this um artificial barrier between the donor and the beneficiary. And we don’t have to talk about, well if we privilege the donor, then it’s at the expense of the beneficiary or vice versa. We can talk about it’s about making connections as humans and and and together working for change and I I see it as a really healthy way forward in that conversation.

[00:55:20.04] spk_0:
That’s a great place to stop. We’re international for this segment from british Columbia and the UK from B C. Is Shoni Field chief development officer at the S P. C. A. Society for prevention of cruelty to animals, the british Columbia and from the UK, jen, chang professor and philanthropic psychologist at the Institute for sustainable philanthropy where you will find all this valuable, valuable research Shoni jen, Thank you very much.

[00:55:24.64] spk_4:
Thanks tony

[00:56:05.34] spk_0:
What a pleasure. Thank you Next week. Susan comfort returns with team wellness as 21 NTC coverage continues. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. They’ve got the relationships for pete’s sake. Turn hyphen two dot c o r. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty

[00:56:07.05] spk_5:
Be with me next

[00:56:25.74] spk_0:
Week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Uh huh.

Nonprofit Radio for April 5, 2021: Gender Inclusivity 101 & Ethical Representation In Your Communications

My Guests:

Jude Shimer: Gender Inclusivity 101
Our 21NTC coverage continues with a convo that started out talking about gender-inclusive data, and includes a lot of best practices around that. But it broadened into a primer on inclusivity generally. It’s 2021! It’s time to address your constituents as they’d like to be addressed. My guest is Jude Shimer from The Center for Popular Democracy.

 

Caliopy Glaros: Ethical Representation In Your Communications
Caliopy Glaros urges you to authentically represent your issues as well as preserve the dignity of those affected by them. She shares 5 actions to help you tell more ethical and equitable stories. She’s principal of Philanthropy Without Borders and this is also part of our 21NTC coverage.

 

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[00:02:21.54] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Andrea Strand, Dallas Canton Insys If you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show you that cutting in the background. By the way, I’m having a little work done outside gender inclusivity. One. Oh one. Our 21 NTC coverage continues with a convo that started out talking about gender inclusive data and includes a lot of best practices around that. But it broadened to a primer on inclusivity. Generally, it’s 2021. It’s time to address your constituents as they like to be addressed. My guest is Jude Shimmer from the Center for Popular Democracy and Ethical Representation. In your communications Calliope Glaros urges you to authentically represent your issues as well as preserve the dignity of those affected by them. She shares five actions to help you tell more ethical and equitable stories. She’s principle of philanthropy without Borders, and this is also part of our 21 NTC coverage on tony. Stick to how are you doing? Plus podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is gender inclusivity one Oh one. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. My guest right now is Jude Shimmer. They are CRM manager at the Center for Popular Democracy. Jude, welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:23.37] spk_2:
Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:51.34] spk_0:
Absolutely. My pleasure. Your session is respect your donors with gender inclusive data and you’re claim I’m not sounding. I don’t, uh I don’t mean to sound skeptical of it. No, you say that we can improve relationships and and grow our base by being more cautious or using gender inclusive data practices better? Yes. So just as an overview, what are we not getting right?

[00:03:48.24] spk_2:
Sure. So this is a particular interest of mine because I’m trans and non binary, and, uh, I have a lot of experiences, especially filling in forms filling in donation forms for nonprofits where I started my session at NTC was an anecdote where I was trying to donate to an organization that I cared a lot about. And they had a salutation field on their donation form that was required, and it didn’t have any gender neutral option. Except for Dr um and I I never understand why any donation form would require that, Like, why it just It makes no sense to me. Uh, and I actually reached out to this organization and asked if they could update their form. Um, and at the time, I already was working for a company. Um, that, among other things, was a donation and online donation platform for nonprofits. And so I built a lot of donation forms. Um, and I

[00:03:58.30] spk_0:
knew what was possible. Yeah,

[00:04:17.34] spk_2:
exactly. You do not have to have a required salutation field. Yeah, it didn’t work. They they the person who who I emailed with actually was really sympathetic and seemed really eager to do it and then said that they tried and it broke their form and that therefore they couldn’t do it. And so I didn’t donate to the Oregon. They didn’t get my donation.

[00:04:22.32] spk_0:
Yeah, You could have offered a technical assistance Probably helped to fix their broken form. Alright,

[00:04:28.96] spk_2:
Yeah. Then it becomes a question of free labor.

[00:05:07.44] spk_0:
Yeah. No, you shouldn’t have to do that. Just by the way, you may hear a little banging in the background. I’m having some floor work done, so Oh, well, congrats or cutting, right? Thank you. And replacing carpet with, uh, L V P. This planking vinyl planking that looks doesn’t look like 19 sixties vinyl, so it’s a little noisy, but that’s that’s you might hear that in the background. Um, yeah. All right. So I mean, let’s start with the most basic, you know, Why would they need to require a salutation? I mean, I have a rationale for that. Or do you see a rationale that you don’t agree with? Probably. But yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:05.84] spk_2:
I’ve talked to a lot of nonprofits who either do require a salutation on their forms or wanted to require salutation on your forms again. The the clients that I was working out with the time and the platform that I was supporting, um, did not require salutation, and, uh and we had a policy against it. Um, and you didn’t even have to have salutation on the form, but we had clients who would request that it be required. And I talked to several about it, and it really came down to this myth that donors want to be addressed by their salutation all the time. Like universally, That’s just the thing that donors want. And therefore we need to ask for it, because if we don’t know their salutation, we’re not going to be able to to write it on their acknowledgement letter and they’re going to be upset and they’re going to feel disrespected and they won’t want to donate anymore. And I have never actually like. No one was able to actually give me some kind of evidence that this is true. Like no one told me a story of like, Oh, we had a donor and we forgot to use their salutation and they were really upset, and they wouldn’t donate any more like that. Does that ever actually happen? And if it does, mhm. That sounds like the donors problem. Like you know, there you can find other donors you have. You know, one odd one who insists on being referred to it not only insists on having their salutation used, but having it asked up up front and the idea that it should be required, like at least just making it optional gives people the opportunity to put it in if they want to be addressed by it. And then no one else has to, but required. Makes no sense to me.

[00:07:10.84] spk_0:
All right, so let’s broaden this and go. Go to what? You know, what is what What else is out there that we should be sensitive to besides salutation? You know what? Sure. What is gender data?

[00:09:01.54] spk_2:
Sure. So, um, there’s the actual gender field. Um, so, you know, male, female, Any other options, which there are actually many more. Um, And there also is, uh, pronoun, which and I also want to be clear, like salutation is not analogous to gender. And pronoun is not analogous to gender. So someone may identify as male, but use they them pronouns. Um, because pronoun usage is very personal. Um, but, uh, but all of these things relate to the concept of gender. So when I talk about gender data, I’m talking about all of the various fields that people associate with gender. So, um so yeah, there’s salutation, There’s pronoun, there’s the actual gender field. And then there’s also sex, which I address in my, um in my presentation as being totally irrelevant to this conversation. When we’re talking about donors donor data, there is no justification whatsoever to ask for or know the sex of your donor, meaning the sex they were assigned at birth. It’s a complete non issue, so you can just drop it off the list. Um, with gender itself, the gender field this one is this one is very interesting. So multiple times that I’ve seen forms that ask for gender because they want to, like put a T shirt in someone’s membership package and want to know whether to include a men’s or woman’s T shirt. But there is no explanation of that. They don’t ask for, like, T shirt style. They just ask for gender, male or female and

[00:09:15.74] spk_0:
but no size, right? So yeah, okay, so that that justification seems kind of thin. Yeah, exactly. Kind. That that’s a thin Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:08.34] spk_2:
Um, so that’s an example. And that’s one that I’ve seen on on donation, or at least membership forms. And then also, though there are other reasons why a nonprofit might want to ask for gender less. So because of, um, like, just a donation situation. But maybe because they’re accepting some kind of application or submission, maybe around their programming, Um, maybe they’re going to have an event, Uh, and they want to have performers or Panelists. And that actually is a really good justification for asking for gender to ensure equity. Um, to make sure that you don’t end up with, you know, an all male or all CIS gender panel. Or, you know, artists in your new works programming things like that. Um, And in that case, there are best practices for how to ask for gender. Um,

[00:10:51.74] spk_0:
okay, we’re gonna we’ll get to that. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Everyone to get ahead of it. You know, we’ve got to get the best practice. Yeah, I’m just trying to set the set the field For what? We’re what it is we’re talking about. Can I, uh This is maybe a little part. Well, that’s not so, but I want you to explain your your feelings around something when when someone doesn’t refer to you as they are them, but says he or she how does that feel? I’m not asking you to speak for the entire, you know, the entire community. Uh, but how does it feel to you when someone miss Miss Miss identifies you?

[00:11:05.74] spk_2:
That’s a great question for me. Personally, Um, it feels confusing. And it it feels like being called the wrong name repeatedly. Um, your

[00:11:07.16] spk_0:
analogy, because yeah, that feels Yeah, exactly. I thought you said Tom. You know, I’ve heard a few. Yeah,

[00:11:52.34] spk_2:
um, and so for me, I don’t have a particularly strong emotional reaction. It’s just incorrect. It’s just like, Oh, no, that’s that’s wrong. That doesn’t fit. Uh, that is my unique experience for other trans people. It can be really, really unpleasant and traumatic. Um, it also depends on how it’s done, because if someone does it by accident, you know, they slip up or they like I haven’t had an opportunity to tell them my pronoun, and they just assume that feels different from when someone has been told repeatedly. And they are persistently using the wrong pronoun. Um and, well,

[00:12:06.34] spk_0:
old repeatedly and consistently doing it wrong. Is that almost like harassment? Yeah. It is a legal definition of harassment harassing to you, Maybe in a non legal way. Whatever. Yeah, all right, All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks. Thanks for sure.

[00:13:15.94] spk_2:
And actually, there’s something I do want to add to that, which is that there are. There’s sort of a scale of, of disrespect or lack of respect for trans people as far as impact. And it’s different for different people. So for me, things like being called the wrong pronoun by someone who’s only just met me or being called ma’am by a server or or, you know, having to confront, like, a restrictive gender field on a form. These things really annoy me. But I also have significantly more traumatic experiences, like being yelled at to leave my gym locker room or having really unpleasant experiences at the O B G y n. And these may seem different, but for me, they are all part of the same kind of miasma, like like they all come together to create an experience. And so when when someone can help mitigate those things that seem smaller, like a form, form field, or like or like a brief Miss Jen during briefly using the wrong pronoun, it makes such a big difference. It really does. Um, and I think that’s important to talk about.

[00:13:54.74] spk_0:
Yeah. And I’m sorry that you you need to have the the small, like, sort of corrections because the the fronts, you know, shouldn’t be there. It sounds like you know, So it sounds like the small the the small incidents where it’s done properly mean a lot to you because there’s so many. There’s so many mis mis identifications out there. Yeah, exactly. But I’m sorry you have to suffer the fronts to

[00:13:56.42] spk_2:
Yeah, what it’s like here right now.

[00:15:07.24] spk_0:
Look, um, you know, so I’m 59 So I’m speaking to folks who are, you know, if if you’re not in your twenties or like early thirties, you know, you didn’t grow up with the pleasure of pronouns that we have now, uh, so, you know, at 59 I grew up, you know, obviously more traditional. Um, but it’s 2021. So, you know, if you want to be online, your forms have to adapt if you want to. You want to interact in society, you know? I mean, if you want to just talk to your family, then you don’t have to, I guess you don’t have to adapt. But if you’d like to go outside your family, assuming you don’t have any trans folks in your family, you know you might. But let’s assume you don’t you know, if you want to stay in solar for the rest of your life, then then you could live your little in your little bubble. But if you want to be part of functioning society in 2021 you know, at 59 years old, I’m here to tell you that you have to adapt. Things are different, you know, just like they were different from the forties to the sixties. Things are different from the knots to the 2022 20 twenties, so get on board. All right, all right, that’s all. So for my my, uh, age peers jump on, all right, it’s not so bad. It’s not. That’s not bad at all. You know, it’s just it’s

[00:15:11.13] spk_2:
good change,

[00:15:21.24] spk_0:
part of a national worldwide community. So be part of it, or stay in your little home and stay in your little zip code if you like. You know? All right, Um, and there’s probably trans folks in your zip code anyway. So you know you’re not there

[00:15:25.22] spk_2:
definitely are little zip code. Little bubble is not as safe

[00:15:37.64] spk_0:
as you might think. All right there, huh? My, uh, imploring my my my peers to come aboard. So All right. Um, well, since you mentioned best practices, you know, we’re gonna talk about when to collect and not to collect. We still got plenty of time. So but let’s let’s talk about some of the best practices about, you know, if you are going to collect it and I guess you could bleed into, you know, whether to collect or not, you know, what’s your advice?

[00:16:11.34] spk_2:
Sure. So if you are going to collect it again, I see two main justifications for collecting gender. Specifically one. You’re accepting submissions, and you want to ensure equity to you want to do some kind of survey. So maybe your survey, your surveying your donors or potential donors about all kinds of things. Maybe you’re surveying them about your programming and whatever else,

[00:16:15.20] spk_1:
and you also want to

[00:17:03.64] spk_2:
know about them demographically. That’s really, really fair. Um, and especially in certain nonprofit industries, um, in industries that are that are centered around uh, progressive movement or equity? Um, in the former case with with submissions. Um, uh, a pretty standard practice is to use, uh, values for female male, non binary Prefer not to say and not listed or prefer to self identify. Um, and, uh, that last one is really important because, um, people can identify all kinds of ways. It’s also becoming more and more of a recognized best practice not to use the term other there, Um, because it literally others people. But to say, you know, right, you know, self identified or not listed,

[00:17:14.54] spk_0:
Should you should you give folks if they’re choosing, uh um, not listed should you give them a chance to feel positive or

[00:17:43.34] spk_2:
absolutely, Yeah, that should always come with a right and sealed. Um, every every gender field should come with a right in field. And in fact, the absolute best practice for as far as I’m concerned for for ensuring equity and submission is to just make it right in field, like forget about the pick list values, but let people right and what they want where they where organizations will sometimes run into issues perceived or real with that is, if They have lots and lots and lots of submissions, and they want to be able to sort and filter things. Um, so that’s where the justification for for a pick list, um,

[00:18:06.74] spk_0:
can come in. Otherwise, it has to be some manual intervention, because somebody might do m R period, which is going to be different than m r, which is gonna be different than and And folks might spell something out that the the the the organization wants to abbreviate standard Lee. So all right,

[00:18:10.54] spk_2:
things like that. So that’s for submissions, for surveying,

[00:19:03.14] spk_0:
for really trying, okay, for, you know, in the pick list versus straight narrative. You know, uh, where where the pick list might be appropriate, like people, organizations getting thousands of submissions a month or something. You know, huge organizations where it’s gonna be burdensome to look at each one and put something in specific to that field for each one. But if you’re getting, you know, like 10, 10 or 15, or maybe even 100 donations a month or or submissions of whatever type nations donations, submissions, you know you can you can do that. You can You can do it right in the field. You know, in an hour somebody can go through 100 of them. I mean, it’s all right. So, you know, we’re not, uh, the Cleveland Clinic where we’re getting 10,000 relations or something. All right, so let’s, you know, the the, uh, be open minded there in terms of what you how you can accept the data. Okay. I’m sorry. Yeah, sure.

[00:21:36.34] spk_2:
So? So we’ve talked about submissions, and then they’re surveying. So in surveying, it’s really useful to get as comprehensive as you can Data on gender. And so there are a lot of gender fields that you can include on a survey field. And another reason why I point this out is that, um, people in general, if they’re trying to just get the thing done like they just want to donate, they just want to do their submission. Um, then, uh, then you don’t want to make your form. Actually, you know what? I’m going to modify that with donation forms. It’s definitely a best practice to make them as short as possible and to ask for and certainly to require as few fields as possible for submission forms. You can be a lot more flexible with that because the person really wants to submit their thing right. They’re probably going to be willing to go through a few pages of questions in order to get their thing Surveys. Also, people enter into a survey. You know they’ve opted into taking a survey you can reasonably take, you know, a few minutes of their time and give them some pretty comprehensive questions and give them some comprehensive options for for answers. So for gender fields there, um, it’s It’s an increasingly recommended practice to have a lot of different gender, uh, gender. Identify as gender terms that people can multi, multi select and then, as always, because you know why not? It’s really important to to and to include a right in field. Um, because you cannot always be certain that you are covering every term and also because language evolves. So, um, in addition to a write in field, there are a lot of terms that people use for their gender. So male female are sometimes associated with sex identification. But some people also may say that my gender is male or my gender is female. Man and woman certainly. Um, sis man. CIS woman The term cysts, which, for people who are unfamiliar, means not trans somebody who identifies as the same gender as as they were assigned at birth. Um, And, uh, so it’s CIS trans, uh, trans masculine transfeminine. There are a lot of terms that you can find with a really easy google. Um, and for all that, I don’t know how much I want to plug Facebook. Um, but so you know what I want, But, um, but there are a lot of organizations and a lot of companies that have gotten on board with offering a lot of different gender options, and you can pretty easily find comprehensive lists of gender, uh, terms and gender identities.

[00:21:56.54] spk_0:
And again, can’t you just simplify this by having it? Strictly narrative.

[00:22:00.34] spk_2:
You can. Um but then again, the analysis part comes in. All right, so

[00:22:06.82] spk_0:
yeah, manually. Yeah,

[00:22:08.21] spk_2:
exactly. So if

[00:22:09.41] spk_0:
you know how many I mean, are you getting it? Well, all right. If you’re getting 1000 1000 I could see Burdensome. Yeah.

[00:22:59.24] spk_2:
Yeah, exactly. So if you want, for example, to see, like within certain zip codes, what is the gender breakdown of our audience? or our base. Right? So, you know, in these areas where we’re doing certain kinds of work, we actually have a pretty significant trans population. Who is Who is paying attention? Who we have contact with, You know, over in this area, Um, there’s a significant population of CIS gender women who are really interested in our work. Um and so if you want to be able to kind of, um, do analyses like that, it is helpful to have predefined terms, But you do want to make sure that you have a lot of comprehensive ones. Okay.

[00:22:59.87] spk_0:
Okay. Anything else? Best practice wise,

[00:23:12.34] spk_2:
Um, pronoun fields. Or is this the place where we can get into pronoun films? Sure. Okay, great. So one kind of under, uh, well, in certain places under discussed, we’re

[00:23:18.59] spk_0:
seeing that structure that, like, I’m not going to allow a program discussion at this point. But we wait 2.5 minutes, Then we can talk about pronouns in in into the six minutes, but yeah, I hope I don’t come across that

[00:25:12.14] spk_2:
way. Um, but yeah, pronouns are really important. There are more important in a lot of situations than any of this other stuff. Um, because pronouns is how people are addressed. It’s as important as people’s names. So anywhere where you would want to know, you know you’re going to be addressing somebody by their name. You also want to know their pronoun. Um, and there are a variety of ways that you can create opportunities to learn people’s pronouns. So if it’s, uh, it’s having to do with an event, um, you can ask for pronouns on the on the event registration form if you’re going to have the ability to say, like in a world where we have in real life events again, if you’re if you’re going to make people badges or things like that, you can also ask it, like when people arrive at an event when they log on to a virtual event, Um, in platforms like Zoom and other video video conferencing platforms, people can add their pronouns in their name. You can request that they do it. You can model it by doing it yourself and, uh, and you also in live events settings can again offer things like badges. Um, it’s also really it’s also very possible, and sometimes people feel uncomfortable about this or don’t know how to do it, but to ask for people’s pronouns in real life just in a conversation. And I think that the easiest way to do that is to offer yours first. So to approach someone and say, Oh, hi. By the way, my pronouncer, they Then what are your pronounce? Um, And it models the behavior it makes it into, You know, this is the thing that we’re doing together rather than sort of like, um, what pronouns do you use, right. You know, these are my pronouns. What are your pronouns? Um and, uh, yeah. There are a lot of opportunities to do that in a group setting, doing a go around at the beginning and asking people to introduce themselves with their names and their pronouns. Um, these are all things that people can do.

[00:25:24.94] spk_0:
Okay? And it becomes no harder to remember than people’s names. So exactly just slip up on, you know, you might slip up on the names 20 people in a group. You’re not gonna remember all 20 names if there’s no badges. So how to pronounce you say Oh, sorry. I think, actually, I’m sorry. I thought it was her, you know, you know, whatever.

[00:25:41.34] spk_2:
And you and there are millions of names, there are millions of names and only a handful of, of of commonly is pronouns in each language. So you know what? You really can do it.

[00:25:53.21] spk_0:
Okay? Yes, yes, But if you make a mistake, right? I mean, it’s not Yeah, Don’t crucify yourself. Just Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:25.24] spk_2:
I actually recommend really short script for if people make a mistake. So if you make a mistake in front of the person you’re talking about, you can say, Oh, I’m sorry. Thank you for reminding me. And then you use their their correct pronoun going forward if it’s in. You know, if they’re not there and someone informs you, owe that person actually uses he him pronouns, you can say, Oh, thank you for letting me know. And you use he him pronouns going forward. Right? Um, you thank the person for letting you know they’ve gone out of their way to do it. They might be kind of sticking their neck out to point that out. It can be uncomfortable. So you thank them for doing it. If the person who you mis gendered is right there. You say I’m sorry. And then you move on. You don’t have to grovel. You don’t have to, you know, suddenly make them the center of attention. You don’t have to make yourself the center of attention. Just apologize. Thank them and move on.

[00:27:01.04] spk_0:
Very practical. This is becoming sort of a 10101 on. Uh, correct. Excuse me. Correct. Not only pronoun usage, but, you know, addressing the trans community. Yeah. Um, all right, we have we have a couple of minutes. What do you want to leave folks with wrap us up? Um,

[00:27:06.19] spk_2:
sure. Well, I have a I have an anecdote where I had, like, a uniquely pleasant experience. Um, you

[00:27:15.81] spk_0:
ended with a crummy. You started with a crummy experience, so and yeah, and upbeat. Excellent. Yeah,

[00:28:13.94] spk_2:
exactly. So I was I was talking to a canvasser who was helping me fill out a donation form on a tablet, and that person was actually filling out the form and asking me the questions. And they said, Oh, by the way, we have an optional salutation field and we have mix available MX, which is the gender neutral salutation. Would you would you like to enter a salutation? And no one had said anything like that to me before. Just, like asked, Would you like to and said, We have a gender neutral one available and it just it made my day. It was no effort whatsoever that organizations part. It took two seconds, and I transfer like transforming an experience from a negative one where they’re not going to get my donation into a positive one where they get my donation and I feel really, positively about that organization is no effort. There’s no reason not to do it.

[00:31:33.24] spk_0:
That’s perfect. Let’s let’s let’s leave it there. Great charmer CRM manager at the Center for Popular Democracy. Thank you very much, Jude. Thanks. Sure, Thank you. My pleasure. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology conference were sponsored by Turn to Communications. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break turn to communications relationships turned to has them with places like the Chronicle of Philanthropy, CBS Market Watch, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times Turn to his clients get placements because of their relationships. So when there’s a reason for you to be in the news or you need to be in the news for your own reason, turn to can leverage these relationships on your behalf. You’re more likely to get coverage that way than you are, calling them up cold on your own. So use the relationships that turn to has to your benefit. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony. Take two. How are you doing? A few folks got back to me, but I’m curious to see if there’s more. And I did hear from some insiders as well again the those, uh, those folks who get the weekly insider alerts telling who the guests are each week. So how are you Anything you want to share about your experience through the pandemic vaccines? You got one. Your family. Was there any sickness in your family? How’s it looking? Planning to go back to the office? Are you planning that yet? Is your office planning it? Are they planning without you? Do you know, maybe maybe they’re planning it without you and you don’t know. In that case, you won’t be able to bring that up to me. But if they’re planning, then you do know and you’re included. How’s the feeling? So I’m interested in how you are as we, uh, begin to see the end of this although fourth surge seems likely. Yeah, plus the pleasantries gotta go out. Right? The podcast. Pleasantries. I’m still enjoying sending these out to you. So I am grateful that you are with nonprofit radio, and I’m gratified that non profit radio is helping you in your work. That’s why I do the show. So pleasantries to you, all of our podcast listeners, each of you individually and then collectively as well. Pleasantries to you. That is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for nonprofit radio. Here is ethical representation in your communications. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot c o. With me now is calliope Glaros.

[00:31:35.94] spk_1:
She is principal

[00:31:39.94] spk_0:
at Philanthropy without Borders. Helio P Welcome.

[00:31:41.44] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony. I’m so excited to be here.

[00:32:07.94] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure. Pleasure to have you. I’m glad you’re part of 21 NTC and our coverage, your topic is from exploitation to empathy, ethical representation in fundraising, communications. This is a concern. What? What do you feel? Nonprofits are not getting quite right around authentically representing people and issues.

[00:32:50.84] spk_1:
Yeah, well, you know, this is a big topic right now, Tony, and there’s a lot of people who are talking about it, but I think my approach is a little bit different for me. It’s not about making cosmetic changes to the images, you know, just showing happy faces instead of sad faces. And it’s also not about sort of superficial changes to language like replacing some words over others. I really approach this topic from the lens that what happens behind the scenes in your storytelling process is just as important as what the audience sees. And so this isn’t about making tweaks to the final narrative. It’s really about working in collaboration with your story contributors to truly understand how they want their stories told. So it’s very much about process, not product

[00:33:00.34] spk_0:
process. Okay, so we could have better processes back end to alleviate appearance problems and and messaging problems that are that are going, going public,

[00:33:41.14] spk_1:
right? I think it’s a fundamental mindset shift. And so, you know, we know that our industry has this issue with representation. We know that a lot of people who work in fundraising and marketing departments have never personally experienced hunger or housing instability or displacement or war. But they’re telling stories about people who have. And so, you know, some of the sort of, I guess, like common sense out there is to think about How would I want my story told, Um, but I don’t really represent some of the people that I’m necessarily writing about. And so it’s this fundamental shift from, you know, not really centering ourselves and our own lived experience, uh, in the stories that we’re telling and really turning towards towards our contributors and looking for guidance from them in how we tell their stories.

[00:33:54.31] spk_0:
Okay, and by contributors you’re thinking of of who?

[00:34:30.44] spk_1:
The actual people that are interviewed by the nonprofit whose stories you’re sharing. If you’re writing about specific people or also the people who are just in your programs, maybe you don’t tell stories about a particular individual or you use like a non identifying case example, Um, but who are the people who are being impacted by your work, who are actually, um, you know, impacted by your mission, going to them and working in collaboration with them and really using their insight to guide how you make decisions, what kinds of stories you’re telling, how you’re talking about the issue, because they’re the ones who are actually experiencing it.

[00:34:33.94] spk_0:
So is it about the questions that you ask them to elicit their story?

[00:34:40.44] spk_1:
That’s a big part. That’s a big part of

[00:34:42.25] spk_0:
it. The communication with the folks that are contributing,

[00:35:01.04] spk_1:
right? So I think the very first thing that an organization has to do is to get feedback about their communications from the people in their programs. And so it’s not just not just interviewing them to get their stories, but actually going back and showing some of the communications that you’ve released and saying, What do you think about this? How satisfied are you with your portrayal? What would you like to see? Right. So even more open ended questions? Not just about, you know. Did you like this? You know. How did you feel it? You know it represented you, but What else would you like to see from us? Right, So get it. So they get feedback is the first step. But also, you know, if you really want to make an impact on your storytelling process, you have to almost create, like I call it a feedback channel. It’s not just about going in once and getting some feedback and, you know, putting it in a little report, and then it sits there. But but having a continuous process of working in collaboration with your contributors. So every time you’re getting stories, you’re also getting feedback, and you can continue to refine your stories in an ongoing way. That’s really the first step.

[00:36:21.33] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. So getting feedback from about the portrayals from the folks who are being portrayed Yes. Okay, interesting. So So that means including those folks on your in your communications. If you’re If you want to make this a regular process, you’re saying not just going one time, but regular have a regular feedback mechanism. So start bringing, adding folks who are the beneficiaries of your work to your e newsletter, for instance.

[00:38:05.42] spk_1:
I think that ultimately, you know, every organization should look at increasing you know, in long term increasing the representation of staff that they have who are responsible for communications. Those folks should, you know, be from those communities and should share some lived experiences and identities with the people who are impacted by that program. I think that’s the long term strategy. I know that you know it’s not going to change overnight. And so I think in the interim, it’s really about both the mindset shift and also creating some different processes. So I’ll give you some more concrete examples, tony. So get feedback. But also, um, a big mistake that a lot of non profits make is they view this concept of consent, right? You know, and we have this in journalism to write, you know, getting consent to tell someone’s story. They view this concept as a form, you know, it’s a one page form that somebody signs that says, I give permission for you to, you know, share my stories and my images, you know, in all of your platforms. And then and then it’s done and you know, that’s that’s not really I think, the most effective process that we could have. We need to view consent a bit more holistically. So for instance, um, you know, I do. How how are we getting people? How are we getting the stories to come to us? Right. And so instead of necessarily going up to someone you know in the program and saying, Hey, can we interview you or, you know, hey, can we have you speak at our next event? You know, how are we allowing people to opt in, if that’s possible, depending on the structure of your organization and your work? So are we allowing our story contributors to sort of self select into the process to sort of raise their hands, so to speak and say, Hey, I would like to be interviewed actually instead of us, um, asking them because you know, there’s power dynamics and sometimes people might feel like saying yes, when they really when you know, when they really don’t want to do something. But because you asked, they feel you know that they have to

[00:38:09.80] spk_0:
say Okay, so make it You’re suggesting Make it more an open question to to the group at large.

[00:38:16.45] spk_1:
Yeah, if it’s possible

[00:38:22.62] spk_0:
and let them and ask. You’re saying you know and then asking for volunteers to instead of going individually to a family or or or a person and saying, Can we tell your story?

[00:39:07.62] spk_1:
Right? Right. Let them volunteer. Let themselves select the option available. Another way consent can show up is even in. So the way stories work is you have an acquisition process where you go out and get the story. You’re actually interviewing people. You’re taking their photos and then on the back end inside a nonprofit, the stories go through this kind of interpretation process, right? You have, you know, the recorded interview or the notes you’ve taken. You’ve got all of these photos, and now you have to put that content into a newsletter or put it into a campaign, right? How are we involving our story contributors in that process? Are we letting them look at their story once we’ve edited it and put it into the campaign or the newsletter? Are we showing it to them and letting them make edits before we send it out before it goes live? Are we going back to them and saying Hey, here’s what. Here’s what we ended up writing. Here’s what we’re going to post What do you think? Are there any changes you’d like to make? How does this look to you? So are we involving them in that editing process?

[00:39:24.52] spk_0:
Is that is that not common? You think it’s not common, You know it. I would have thought the same process that folks used with their donors when they’re doing a donor. So I do fundraising. So I’m more on the donor side that I’m not on the beneficiary side, but with donor. When when fundraisers are doing donor testimonials, there’s lots of back and forth. You know, the same, you know.

[00:41:04.41] spk_1:
No, it isn’t. And you know you really hit on. I think a fundamental issue in this industry is that the way I define exploitation of my talk is that it means that we’re treating some groups better than others. And in the nonprofit space, we definitely treat our donors better than we treat our story contributors or a program participants. And so even if we think about this notion of consent, the way consent looks with donors is totally different than story contributors. So as I was saying, you know, many organizations have this kind of one page media consent form, and there are There are forms that actually say your consent is irrevocable. Once you sign this, we can use your image and story however we’d like and you can’t do anything about it. But that’s not how we treat our donors, right? You know, if our donors sign up for a newsletter and then they decide to opt out later, they can opt out at any time. You know, if they decide, you know, maybe they don’t mark. Their gift is anonymous. And so, you know, we we kind of release things. And then they say, Oh, actually, I don’t want that kind of recognition. Please, you know, um, don’t don’t add me to your annual report. Please make an anonymous. You know, we let our donors kind of opt in and opt out, and and we give them all kinds of controls and consent. But with our story contributors Nope. Your consent is irrevocable. You know, that’s what I really want to change, right? And I think that’s the last part of thinking about consent as a process. There’s opting in, you know, if possible in the story acquisition process, there’s involving them in the interpretation, like you said, with donors having back and forth and then at the end, you know, if years go by and we’re still using their face, you know, on the on the as the hero image on our website. And they say, you know, I don’t want to be on your website anymore. Why on earth can’t we take that image down, right? Why does someone’s consent have to be irrevocable? So you’ve really nailed it, tony. The way that we engage our donors and the control that we give our donors has not been the way that we’ve treated our program participants in our story. Contributors.

[00:42:06.70] spk_0:
Yeah. All right. Interesting. Uh, as I said, I’m only aware of the way it works on the donor side, and I would have thought that it was equivalent on the beneficiary providing side. All right. All right. Um, what else? What else you want to talk about? Not that we’re not. We’re not near the end, but I feel like, you know, you’ve been studying this and thinking about it for years, and I’m coming to it after just I mean, I’ve had another conversation with Amy Sample worried about specifically about poverty porn and avoiding avoiding that. Um, but that was more about images and your, You know, of course. You know, we’re talking more about process. So you think about this more than I do. Basically, what I’m trying to say. So what? What what more? What do you want us to know,

[00:45:01.09] spk_1:
Right, So there’s, I think, a couple a couple main points, Um, in the title of my talk, it goes from from exploitation to empathy. And so I view empathy as being on the other end of the spectrum of exploitation. But I think that this word is misunderstood in our industry. We hear it all the time. And, um, I think it’s misunderstood. And so I spend a little time talking about what empathy actually is. I think a lot of people think that when you have empathy with another person, it means that you are feeling exactly what they’re feeling. But then my question is, how do you know what someone else is feeling right? And what if you have very different lived experiences? I’m sure, um, you and many of our listeners you can think of a time where you’re sharing an experience with someone and they responded with like, Oh, I know exactly how you feel, You know, when this happened to me and then they describe something that was not at all what you experienced and you’re going like No, no, that’s that’s not it at all. Um, you know, or they blow it out of proportion and think like, Oh, that’s happening to you. Oh, I’m so sorry. Oh, you must be devastated and you’re going. No, no, I’m not right people, you know. Are they projecting how they would feel if they experience what you experience? It’s not what you would feel. And so the way that I approach empathy, you know, in this topic and how it’s related to storytelling actually comes from the work of sociologist Milton Bennett, who distinguished between a sympathy and empathy by saying that sympathy assumes similarity when we’re embodying sympathy were practicing the golden rule. We’re treating other people the way we want to be treated, because we assume that they are similar to us, and in empathy. We treat other people the way they want to be treated because we assume they’re different from us. And as I was saying earlier, we really need to be assuming difference instead of similarity, because the lived experiences and the identities of the people who are responsible for telling the stories, fundraising and marketing staff in the nonprofit, um, are oftentimes very different from the lived experiences of the people that they’re telling stories about. Um And so you know, there’s advice out there that I refute, which is, you know, thinking about how would I want my story told, How would I feel if this story was about me and, um moving that that’s really more embodying sympathy and so moving from sympathy to empathy requires that we ask better questions? Um, those questions could look like, you know, how would I feel if I was telling the story and the person that it’s about was sitting right next to me? Or, you know, if I was talking to a donor about this story, and, you know, one of our clients walked into the room suddenly, is there anything about the story that I would change right? Do I tell, Do I tell stories differently to donors? Then then you know, when a client is present versus when they’re not, um, in those hypothetical situations were still. We’re still us. We’re not projecting our experience on to someone else. And so those are the better questions that we could ask. And that’s, you know, there are so many ways that I think in the nonprofit sector and in storytelling, we embody these sympathetic responses and we assume similarity. And we assume that our experience is universal and we’re some kind of a baseline. And really, um, it’s not the case. So I think that’s one main point

[00:45:22.39] spk_0:
that’s almost from like we could say, from from narcissism to empathy,

[00:45:24.88] spk_1:
right, Right

[00:45:41.19] spk_0:
way I experienced something. Must be the way you experienced it or or the way I feel about what you’re describing, because I’ve never experienced it personally the way I feel about what your what Your what your situation is, must be the way you are feeling about it exactly, because because I’m the center of the universe. So naturally, my feelings are the same as your yours would be the same as mine, you know?

[00:46:25.18] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s projection, and I think it’s at the pitfall. It’s you know, we all have, like, interpersonal examples of conversations we’ve had, and the reason I bring it up and that I go to the trouble of defining it is because I think that that basic perception, um, is what is it the pitfall of all of the mistakes that we make, um, in mass communications and in the way that we represent other people. Um, you know, it’s kind of using ourselves as a baseline and not really thinking about sort of the differences in our lived experience. Um, so that’s so that’s one

[00:46:30.88] spk_0:
thing. Uh, yeah. Distinguishing between exploitation and sympathy and

[00:46:33.01] spk_1:
empathy, Empathy,

[00:46:41.68] spk_0:
um and, well, your point know about gauging asking feedback. I mean, just how does this story look to you?

[00:48:25.37] spk_1:
Right. You know, we don’t know how other people want to be treated unless they tell us. And that’s the thing. If we’re just guessing, just guessing it’s still a projection. Um, you know, and I think the other thing that was really important in my session is I think the way that people think about ethical storytelling and moving beyond this kind of narrow scope. And so I think originally our concept of ethical storytelling was informed by journalism, which is really looking at a policy of do no harm so it’s make sure you get consent. Make sure that you’re not traumatizing the story contributor. Respect people’s privacy and boundaries, you know when you’re interviewing them. But in nonprofit fundraising, storytelling, this kind of do no harm is really our baseline. You know, that’s the least we could be doing an ethical storytelling. I think, to go up another level, we need to be adding value. We need to be providing value to the story contributor. And that doesn’t necessarily just mean, um, you know, paying them a monetary stipend. That is a good process for some organizations. It works for some, but not all. Um, but how are we making this an enriching experience? How are we making? Giving them a platform to to share their story and experience in a way that, um, that feels positive and makes them want to do it again? That it was a good experience for them. Right. So how are we providing value? Um, and then, really, the layer above that I think what we ultimately need to be aiming for an ethical storytelling is changing the beliefs and behaviors of our audience. And so we know that there are massive inequities in the world. And those inequities are influencing our work there, influencing our program participants. And you know, these are large, systemic issues, but they’re maintained and held into place by certain beliefs and behaviors. And how are our story’s changing those beliefs and behaviors? How are we pushing back against unhelpful narratives that say it’s okay to treat some people better than others? That’s what we really need to be aiming for.

[00:48:56.87] spk_0:
What’s your opinion of giving folks the option to just tell their own story? Maybe, you know, turn the camera on themselves and just tell their story as they as as they want to. Yeah, I think it’s in their own words.

[00:49:00.14] spk_1:
I would think that would be

[00:49:01.16] spk_0:
valuable.

[00:49:34.97] spk_1:
I think that the closer that we can get to honoring that sort of authenticity, um, and the autonomy of our story contributors. So yeah, letting, letting them speak in their in their own words, tell their story in their own manner. The closer we can get to that the better. Um, I also know that you can’t fit everything into a tweet, and you can’t fit everything onto a one or two page campaign letter and so I know, uh, forms and opportunities that are are great just for really authentic sharing. And then there’s some that we do have to, um, you know, interpret for our audience. So,

[00:50:10.86] spk_0:
yeah, I mean, it could be the It could be the person’s personal narrative with, you know, with context, right? Exactly. Exactly. Right. I mean, there is a purpose behind these two. We are trying to We we are using these stories to raise money. So I mean, they have you know, we’re not just trying to create an archive. Uh, we’re not creating writing a documentary where this is market driven, market driven content, but the person could use their own words. And then and we fill in with lots of context.

[00:50:36.36] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that was some advice that I gave in my talk as well is really trying to stay. Give the story contributor autonomy as much as you can, and let them use their own words and let them, you know, tell the story the way that they want. And of course, you know, there are shifts that we you know, there are different things that we could do in our interview process. is there are shifts that we can make into the kinds of questions that we ask. Um, but it really should be about giving more autonomy, uh, to the story contributor and honoring their authenticity.

[00:50:44.56] spk_0:
Your session description mentions five actions to tell more ethical and equitable stories. Are those things we can talk about in five minutes?

[00:55:08.44] spk_1:
They sure can. And so I think one of them we already touched on, which was to create or fix your feedback channel right to make sure you’re getting feedback. And if you’re already getting feedback, make sure that it’s done in a consistent way. Um, and that in specific. And I would also say to the listeners, You know, consider having kind of like a control and a test group. And so you know there’s power dynamics at play, right? And when we go to some of the people in our programs and ask for feedback because they’re receiving services from our organizations, those people may be inclined to tell us what we want to hear. Um, and so I get a lot of questions about addressing power dynamics, and there’s there’s not necessarily a lot we can do about about those dynamics. But I would also not just ask people who are, you know, in your programs who are receiving services from your organization, but also ask people either within the community or people who embody some of the identities or lived experiences of those people. But they’re not getting services and and see what they think about your communications. Um, if everyone in your programs are saying, Oh, these look great, you know, great job. And then other members of the community are going No, these are so stereotypical, you know, these are you know, there’s a really this isn’t representative, right? That’s some interesting data. And so don’t just ask people in your programs. But as people outside of your programs, Um, I think, yeah, feedback. And you know, 0.2 is view consent as a process, not just a form. Right. First, take a look at your form and make sure you’re not saying you know that that their consent is irrevocable because it really isn’t. Um, you know, look at ways that you can incorporate consent into your entire process from the moment you’re getting the story, the editing and interpreting it’s going through, and then even long after it’s used. You know, can someone ask for things to be taken down? Um, I think you know, Number three gets at that last point that I made around ethical storytelling, you know, sort of beyond the baseline, Really changing beliefs and behaviors. Um, I really encourage everyone to push back against harmful or unhelpful narratives. And so what are the assumptions that exist about the people in our programs? Um, about their situations. Are those assumptions really? Are they helping us move our work forward or not? And if they’re not, then how are we pushing back? Um, think about the stories that we’re not telling, right. We’ve got all the stories we’re telling, but what are what are the stories we’re not telling? Um, you know, how are our stories shaping the expectations for both our donors in terms of what is required for change? Um, you know what does what does impact look like? What does change look like often our work. You know, change doesn’t happen overnight, But if we’re saying that to our donors, you know you’re going to transform someone’s life, you know, in a day, you know, that’s not really That’s not really reasonable expectation. Um, you know, and also, you know, our clients and story contributors see themselves in these stories were not hiding them from them. And so what kind of expectation are we setting for them? Right. So pushing back against a harmful, unhelpful narratives, harmful and unhelpful narratives and then really like looking at every communication and saying, Is this message reinforcing those narratives or is it challenging them? The fourth piece of advice they gave, um, was being the microphone and not the voice. It’s kind of a proverbial It’s a metaphor. And so you know, you you see these communications, tony. Like where the voice for the Children were, the voice for the poor, you know, and all of these people have voices. They have. They have a way of expressing themselves, and so you’re not really speaking on their behalf, but you are providing them a platform and amplifying their message. And so being a platform being a microphone and not a voice means that you have to as a as a storyteller, as someone in your organization, um, tasked with that, you have to analyze your own perspective. You have to be thinking about what’s influencing my perspective on this. Right? Um, you have to be. You know, when you start making generalizations about a group you have to be looking at, like, how do I know that? How do I know? You know, what I’m saying is real. Where’s my evidence? What am I basing this off of, Right. So understanding. You know what kind of a microphone you are? Right? And, you know, then your final one, we have the final one. That’s right. You know, we need to stay committed to changing beliefs and behaviors because it’s not going to happen overnight. But we’re playing the long game, and that’s really what we ultimately need to be striving. Oh, okay.

[00:55:12.84] spk_0:
Okay. You cut out a little bit there, but changing changing behaviors.

[00:55:16.72] spk_1:
We need to stay committed to changing beliefs and behaviors,

[00:55:25.14] spk_0:
beliefs and behaviors. Thank you. All right, All right. That’s a lot. But that was good. Calliope. Terrific. Thank

[00:55:25.76] spk_1:
you. Thank you so much. Tony,

[00:56:39.54] spk_0:
Your opening eyes. You’re raising consciousness about potential exploitation and helping us avoid it in our in our processes. Thank you. Kelly O P. Glaros principal at Philanthropy Without Borders. Yeah. Thank you very much again. Thank you. And thanks to you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC where were sponsored by turn to communications, turn hyphen two dot c o Next week Fund volunteer activities as 21 NTC coverage continues. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty. Be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for March 29, 2021: Cure Communications Gaffes & Talking Mental Health In Your Workplace

My Guests:

Julie Ziff Sint, Claire Thomas & Shafali Rao: Cure Communications Gaffes
Our 21NTC coverage begins by explaining what to do after you put the wrong gala date in an email, or send a letter to the wrong segment. Might an intentional mistake improve open your open rate? Our panel is Julie Ziff Sint, Claire Thomas and Shefali Rao, all from Sanky Communications.

 

 

 

Dan Berstein: Talking Mental Health In Your Workplace
Also from 21NTC, Dan Berstein helps you avoid a different gaffe: Saying the wrong things when faced with challenging behaviors or mental health disclosures. He’s got easy-to-follow strategies. Dan is founder of MH Mediate.

 

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[00:02:22.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into zero Estonia if I had to mouth the words you missed this week’s show Cure Communications Gaffes. Our 21 NTC coverage begins by explaining what to do after you put the wrong gala date in your email or send a letter to the wrong segment. Might an intentional mistake improve your open rate? Our panel is Julie’s. If ST Claire Thomas and Shefali Row, all from Sancti Communications and talking Mental Health in your workplace, also from 21 NTC, Dan Burstein helps you avoid a different gaffe, saying the wrong things when faced with challenging behaviors or mental health disclosures, he’s got easy to follow strategies. Dan is founder of M H. Mediate on tony State, too. How are you doing? We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is a cure. Communications gaffes. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC That’s the 2021 nonprofit technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. My guests at this session are Julie’s. If ST Claire Thomas and Shefali Row. They’re all with Sancti Communications. Julie is vice president of account and Strategic Services. Claire is copy director, and Shefali is senior copywriter. Welcome, Julie.

[00:02:22.57] spk_2:
Thanks for having us.

[00:02:23.81] spk_3:
Welcome to be here.

[00:02:32.24] spk_1:
So, uh, let’s see. So does everybody work for Julie? And then then And then Claire reports The Shefali is It doesn’t work like that. I’m sure it’s a very collegial place. Thank you. Community were totally lateral. Totally flat. Everybody gets the same pay. Everybody is exactly the same

[00:02:54.44] spk_2:
way. We’re really collaborative agency, but I work more on our strategic side of things. And Claire and Shefali are two of our genius copywriters who manage our clients messaging.

[00:03:37.34] spk_1:
Okay, I think it’s important to flush this out. So give folks a feel for swanky communications because they might be working with you someday. Your workshop topic is my bad to all. Good. How to repair a mistake in donor communications. So, like if you dropped an email with a mistake in it, or you sent out an email about the gala, and it has the wrong date or the wrong time. That’s that’s That’s a particularly egregious one. We would think we would catch that in copyrighting. So, um, Shefali, let’s start with you. How does these things happen? First of all, like suppose that example? Wrong time in the gala invitation. How could that How could that possibly happen when we have multiple eyes on projects on communications?

[00:04:14.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you would think that it wouldn’t, but sometimes it just misses all sets of five. I actually gave this example, even in the conference, but I used to be a journalist, and I used to be at the news desk copy editing and one day on the front page in a headline. The word public was missing an L. And that just went out the next day. And, um, the good news is that we have a system we have, like, strategies in place where we kind of make those mistakes work for us. Which is really what our workshop was about.

[00:04:18.19] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, you could have some fun. I don’t know. Pubic might be tough. to have fun you can have fun

[00:04:22.29] spk_4:
with

[00:04:36.74] spk_1:
without getting carried away. I mean, I think making light of a mistake, a gaffe. I use that all the time. I mean, you’re suffering with a lackluster host, so don’t be surprised if this comes up three or four times in a half an hour. Um, like the banging? I don’t know. You know, I have you here that banging

[00:04:42.14] spk_3:
a

[00:05:03.04] spk_1:
little. Okay, it’s It’s a hammer. There’s guys working on my stairs. You might hear vacuuming because they’re very fastidious about cleaning up. You might hear some, uh, sawing drill drill. Uh, circular saw type work. Um, not that that’s a gaffe, but, you know, it’s background noise. We got to call it out. If I can’t hide it, I’m gonna flaunt it, so well. Shit. I gotta ask, What did the paper do with, uh, public to

[00:05:20.94] spk_4:
pubic? And then we printed into the collection the next day. That’s all you can really do. That’s not the fun way. I mean, it’s not a fun where it was pretty upset about it, but we have actually had fun with some of our mistakes in the bus. Right?

[00:05:24.44] spk_1:
Okay. Who wants to share a mistake that, uh, so

[00:05:27.40] spk_3:
one of them One of them was in the footer. You know of an email and, you know, these things go out all the time, and and everybody is real careful about the

[00:05:36.00] spk_4:
content of the email, and And

[00:05:46.34] spk_3:
was the subject line perfect? And you kind of forget to be as careful about the footer and in the footer to the donors. It said eight cents of every dollar goes to programs services.

[00:05:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah.

[00:05:52.64] spk_3:
Now, most people already wouldn’t even see

[00:05:55.27] spk_1:
that Most people are going to look at the footer,

[00:07:01.34] spk_3:
right? This and this is an animal shelter. So? So when when it was caught, we were like, Okay, so we’re So what we did was we said, Okay, let’s let’s send it up. But let’s stay in character for how the donors know us. And we we have with this with this, um, animal shelter. We have a really fun, friendly voice. And so we sent out a correction email, and we used it to educate donors on what the truth is. And what we said was forgive us if you are, forgive us for our mistake. Um and we try. We’re pause P a w positively horrified. We made this mistake because the truth is it’s 82 cents of your dollar that goes to programs services, and we’re really proud of that. And then we talked about how we care for donor services. But we kept the really used pictures of cute puppies and kittens and, you know, it was all friendly and fun, and it was a good chance to educate the donors on what the actual You know how the organization uses donor resources. And,

[00:07:25.04] spk_2:
of course, the silver lining on that example and everything else is that when you do have an effective apology like that, um, you can have extraordinary engagement with your donors. So for that example that Claire just shared, we had over 50% open rate and almost a 5% click through rate, which is more than three times as high on both metrics as as you might hope to see.

[00:07:39.04] spk_1:
Yeah, Julie, I was going to go to you. Uh, so it sounds like the first thing you should do when you discover one of these gaffes is don’t panic,

[00:07:40.84] spk_2:
never panic. Panicking definitely does not help

[00:07:43.58] spk_1:
you accomplish your compound, right, you’ll send the wrong thing. You won’t think it through. You’ll blow the one chance you have to really fix it well, so keep your head on.

[00:08:35.44] spk_2:
Panicking definitely doesn’t help in any environment, I will say before, you know before you get there. It’s definitely worthwhile to have a comprehensive QA process. Um, and quality assurance process. Make sure that you’re going through steps to try to avoid the mistakes in the first place. But then, yeah, once the mistake happens, because no matter how good your quality assurance process is, mistakes will happen. Um, so when something does happen to be able to, like you said, don’t panic, figure out what was the mistake? What was what type of mistake was it? Is there an opportunity there? There might be a silver lining. There might be an opportunity. And how can you? How can you apologize in the most effective way? Or turn the mistake into make some lemonade from that lemon and really find a good silver lining there?

[00:08:58.34] spk_1:
What if someone is screaming at you? Maybe it’s a board member who just got the email. Maybe it’s the CEO. Whoever someone senior to you is furious about the mistake. Yeah, about them. Yeah, not about Not about what you’re wearing that day. But yeah,

[00:09:03.86] spk_3:
I’m just because the other problem is when the donor picks up the phone and starts to screen with you, right?

[00:09:20.34] spk_1:
Okay. It could be a donor, but I was trying to manage in the office first, but that’s a good one. Clear. We’ll get to. We’ll do that later. The secondary. The secondary market. Yeah, the other constituents. But how about right in your office? Uh, you know, a CEO or board member? Well, we’ll consider board members insiders for purposes of our conversation. What do you do there? Furious.

[00:09:49.54] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. And the first thing to do is to say, this is this isn’t all bad. There’s There’s probably an opportunity here. And we had a whole section on opportunities. Every every one of the case studies that we presented and the our speed round where people were talking about all these are the mistakes they made, you know, we talk about Well, there’s an opportunity there, like shuffle. You had some great ideas about opportunities.

[00:10:22.94] spk_4:
Yeah, and I mean, the first question you asked that the step was How does this happen? You know what I mean? Like, how do these mistakes happen? And they happen because there are human people at the other end of that happens like we all make mistakes. And sometimes the donor wants nothing more than to know that a person is at the other end of these communications. And that’s your opportunity right there to say sorry. Build a connection to make, like, some sort of personal, heartfelt apology. Um, and then you have a lasting connection with the donor.

[00:10:51.04] spk_1:
Claire, let me continue with you where we’ve got a furious supervisor here. Doesn’t it help to just also say, I’m sorry? I mean, I know, I know. I know. I made a mistake without trying to deflect or, you know, just even if it’s not 100% your mistake. Like if two other people read the copy also, but but the CEO is in your office in the moment. Oh, yeah. You just say I know, I know. We messed it up or I’m sorry. You know, I mean, just right, well,

[00:10:56.17] spk_3:
and and it is, you’re you’re absolutely right. But then there’s the other. The other mistake that you just alluded to when it was completely out of your control. Julie, talk about what happened with the USPS this year.

[00:11:30.54] spk_2:
Oh, my goodness. And so this is, you know, there are definitely issues that are outside of our control, right? So, you know there was for people who use Blackboard Online Express there was one year that it stopped taking donations on giving Tuesday. There was the black pod data breach last spring and summer. Gmail started hard bouncing in the middle of December this past year. And then, of course, in direct mail, USPS had delays and we had some of our clients were sending out holiday fundraising appeals at the very beginning of December. But then the seeds weren’t even received until the beginning of January. So if you’re mailing that,

[00:11:54.84] spk_3:
you think Yeah, I mean, there’s There’s a pissed off CEO pissed off client pissed off everybody that people didn’t The donors didn’t get the asks.

[00:11:58.54] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s

[00:13:06.94] spk_2:
outside. It’s outside of your control. But there are ways to make that into an opportunity. We had one client. They had sent out a mailing that talked about a December 31st, matching gift deadline, but people didn’t receive the mailings. Um, it bombed. And so we have brainstormed with them. What can we do to figure out a way around this? And we ended up doing an email campaign in early January that effectively said, We understand there were delays with the post service. We know that you may not have received our appeal letter. We would like to tell you that even though it said that the matching gift deadline was on December 31st we talked to the matching gift donor, and we’ve been able to extend it. Please make your contribution now, and so you know it’s not going to necessarily completely counter active. You know that’s not our mistake, but it’s not going to completely counteract that problem. But you can still look for a silver lining. You can still try to connect with the donors, show them that you are a human, show them that you’re all partners together for the mission, um, and then bring them back on board for for the mission.

[00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Claire, you you seem to be the one who raises the good hypotheticals. Alright, let’s let’s go outside now. I suppose it is a donor on the phone, so it’s not. It’s not a supervisor, but now it’s a donor. You know, maybe it’s maybe they’re the ones who maybe they’re the challenge donors who December 31st, you know, in January 3rd, they got the they got the challenging male or whatever it is, you have an upset donor or a very upset volunteer. How do you manage that?

[00:15:20.44] spk_3:
Well, first of all, remember that the fact that someone has picked up the phone and called you you have a dedicated donor on the other end of the line. This is a person who cared enough, cared enough about the work that you’re doing and is invested enough in the mission to pick up the phone and complain. So you’ve got someone on the phone who really cares, and then you kind of follow some basic steps. Remember feelings before solutions? Let them vent. Let them say whatever it is that made them angry and listen to it and be sympathetic and listen for opportunities to connect and then solve the problem. Sometimes it’s that it’s that the donor says, Well, I only wanted to be mailed once a year, and this is the third appeal I’ve gotten this year, and so you know you have a chance to draw them into a conversation and get them talking about why they care about the organization’s work, why this mission matters to them. Once they start talking about why they care, they usually talk themselves into wanting to give. I’ve been in the situation where I’ve been the person talking to the donor that was angry and letting them talk and then finding a way to, like, say, Well, that’s a really good point and I think we can We can address that mistake and then upgrading the donor getting them. That’s actually how I started in fundraising. I was. I was asked to call donors who were angry, find out what the problem was and and then just these were people who had pledged money, and we’re going to pay it off. I raised all the money they had pledged just by listening to them just by solving little problems that they had really small. Um and then they ended up being very dedicated, the organization, because again it’s what you’ve always said is that human human, you know, these are people on both sides of the equation. Philanthropy is, of course, the most human of acts.

[00:15:40.74] spk_1:
You all know the service recovery paradox.

[00:15:44.84] spk_3:
No,

[00:15:46.44] spk_1:
really, I haven’t. We

[00:15:49.33] spk_3:
do that. Pardon me? My suspicion that we actually do that.

[00:16:07.54] spk_1:
Well, yeah, you’re you. You could very well be a part of it, but, um, it’s bona fide. There’s research. The service recovery paradox is that someone for whom a mistake occurs and and has that mistake satisfactorily corrected will be more connected to the brand. I think I’ve seen it more on the commercial side will be more connected to the brand than someone for whom a mistake never occurred.

[00:16:20.14] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:16:21.62] spk_1:
actually, you’re describing Claire like your clarity talking about upgrading people who were upset.

[00:16:28.24] spk_2:
There are a lot of psyche communications. We were founded by sinking pursuant. Um, back in the late seventies. And there are a lot of myths around Spanky Pearlington. Um, and many of them are not verified.

[00:16:42.65] spk_1:
Uh, thank you, man or a woman or

[00:16:44.76] spk_3:
she is a woman.

[00:16:49.84] spk_2:
Um, I think he was a nickname for Selma. Um, apparently, maybe that’s the new thing that we can learn for today. Um,

[00:16:54.61] spk_1:
I think

[00:16:55.60] spk_3:
I

[00:17:24.44] spk_2:
know so So There are a lot of a lot of myths around her in the industry, but one, and I have no idea if this is true. But I have been told that she used to plant mistakes and direct mail letters because there was an increased increased responses or an increased response rate or an increased giving. If there was a mistake in the letter, people would actually right back, correct it and send in their check while they were at it.

[00:17:26.56] spk_1:
That’s brilliant.

[00:17:27.84] spk_3:
It’s brilliant,

[00:17:43.84] spk_1:
right? They love you enough to point out like Claire was saying, they love you enough to point out your mistake. But then they might feel bad about not including a check. So you’re you’re you’re helping them get over the hurdle of, uh, whether to reply, you’re giving them a giving them an even better reason to reply. And by the way, they feel bad. If they if they only complain so they’ll give you money too well.

[00:18:05.94] spk_3:
And we writers like to believe that once somebody has noticed some kind of little mistake, they start reading for other mistakes, and then they actually get hooked into the message. Those of us who spend all our time crafting those messages. It’s our chance to hook them.

[00:18:13.44] spk_1:
Shefali, do you do you deliberately? Have you ever deliberately honest Now have you any deliberate mistake in?

[00:18:18.61] spk_4:
I have to say I’m having this conversation. I’m already thinking of, like subject lines that maybe you have a mistake, but not super obvious. But it would get people to just open the email.

[00:18:30.64] spk_1:
Wait, wait, I want to flush this out. We’re getting good advice. This is the stuff I love. A nonprofit radio. Actionable, actionable advice. What way?

[00:18:53.54] spk_4:
What’s an example? For example, I’m just thinking, What if the subject line just had somebody else’s name and you click on it? Because you think OK, this person made a mistake? That’s not my name. And then you open it and says, Just getting Of course we know you’re tell me because you are one of our most dedicated supporters,

[00:19:06.84] spk_1:
Okay, but they think they’re being voyeuristic by opening it up. It’s made for somebody else. I definitely want to check that out more so than I would read my own. The problem with

[00:19:09.64] spk_2:
tony that that that will be great with the donors. It may not be so great with that CEO that comes into your office yelling.

[00:19:24.34] spk_1:
Well, I should get approval in advance and say, Look, I want to want to test it. I want to test it exactly like we’re going to send 1000 that are that are misnamed than 1000 that are correctly named And, uh, let’s see. Let’s see which one pulls better. Which one clicks through better. You want to

[00:19:34.69] spk_3:
share one more?

[00:19:36.33] spk_1:
I have these copywriter minds think it’s amazing. Anything else occur to you while we’re talking?

[00:19:42.54] spk_4:
No, that’s it. I mean, new campaign idea in two minutes. I’m pretty happy with

[00:20:13.64] spk_1:
that. Yeah, right. Okay, well, we’re 17 minutes in, so try to try to up your game a little bit. Were already. You’re only one idea in 17 minutes. We’ve got to do a little better than that. Um all right, what else should we talk about? The crisis communications management is this This is this is no, I mean, that’s a crisis, but we’re now we’re moving to organizational crisis. Where the where the local paper headline and it’s not good. Who? Julie, you got You got a first bit of advice for that.

[00:22:10.54] spk_2:
Um so I think we we go back to where you started with before, which is always start with. Don’t panic. Um, for many of the organizations that we that we work with, one of the first things that we do is we talk to them about what is the rapid response plan? Um, it applies to if there’s a hurricane that impacts your services or if there’s a political situation that impacts your services or if there’s something in terms of internal politics where there’s something that is going to impact your reputation and you have that that rapid response plan. And it’s a question of, you know, we’ve given whole other talks about this and that it’s a whole other topic of conversation, but it is. It is really important, right? If you have the plan going in that you can deal with whatever the issues are, so you say Okay, who are the decision makers at the organization? What is the chain of command? Who are the people who we need to gather at the organization to figure out whether or not we respond? If we respond, what channels do we respond in what is the messaging of that response, right? And so you know that that really does have to depend on what is the situation. And in some some issues you don’t some problems, whether it’s a mistake internally, a mistaken communication or a one of these kind of rapid response publicity, something some situations will not require a response, and others do. And so it’s a question of what is the message? Is it something where, you know, if you actually do something really offensive, who is the right person to say something? Is it the executive director? Is it the chair of the board? Um, so so is it somebody who is a trusted individual who is the right signer for it? What is the right message? You know, we do. We do often. I will say, use humor when we are crafting an apology. Claire Claire talked about that example of Please forgive us from an animal shelter. You’re not going to do that if it’s something really offensive, you

[00:22:22.60] spk_1:
don’t want to. Yeah,

[00:22:24.30] spk_4:
I

[00:22:30.54] spk_2:
mean, you never know, but you want to be very human. Talk about it. Ideally, you want to be real explain. Here’s the situation and and have a very real genuine apology. What?

[00:22:56.84] spk_1:
Okay, what if at the outset, you don’t You don’t have enough facts. I mean, can you Can you come out and say we can’t comment right now? You know, we’re still looking into whatever the situation is, and we don’t want to say anything inappropriate. So give us 24 hours or something like that. Well,

[00:23:34.54] spk_3:
and committing to transparency in that process, I think is going to go a long way to saying we’re still figuring this out. We want you to know we’re on it. Were These are the steps we’ve already taken. Here’s a step. There is the next step we’re taking, and we’re going to tell you what’s going on. You know, you’re going to hear about this. Um, and just just to reassure them anytime you’re you’re dealing with somebody you’re dealing with donor group, they’ve given you their money. This is this is an act of trust. You have to you have to work to keep that trust, um, to make sure it’s, you know, earned. So you don’t want to lose that,

[00:23:49.04] spk_2:
and transparency is important. But you’re also then messaging them and saying to them as a donor. You are. You are our partner in executing our mission. You are part of the organization. We owe you an explanation. And we need you to help us get through this. We need you to continue to support, um, you know, shelter, animals, homeless youth, whatever the population is that you are providing services to you, our our partner in supporting this mission. And we need you to stand with us.

[00:24:11.94] spk_4:
Yeah, and the more authentic and personal it is, it’s also it’s more of its transparency. But it’s also assurance that not just like it’s not just we have your best interest isn’t just that hot, but it’s also you’re in the know about what’s happening in the organization. Like Julie said, you’re a partner

[00:25:33.54] spk_1:
building on that trust that Claire was talking about. Yeah. Yeah, right. You have that trust in the bank you don’t wanna you don’t wanna exploit it, uh, and squander it, which, you know, conflicting messaging will do. I think too much delay. Depending on the situation, you know, too much delay. Then the story gets ahead of you, and I’m envisioning something really bad, you know, and then somebody else controls the narrative, and you’ve You’ve lost your opportunity. You know, those those things are bad. And that’s that’s a squandering of good faith, squandering of trust. All right, well, that’s that. That’s the trust to that Claire you talked about when we were talking about the gaffes. You know, people love you so much that they’re going to let you know that you made a mistake. Those are those are the most concerned, Like most invested people, the ones who don’t care, we’re gonna write off like, uh, another. Another problem with these people, you know, something like that. But the ones who really care, we’re gonna say, How could they let this happen? Do they know? You know? So, yeah, they’re invested their invested. All right. Um, what else are we talking about? We got a couple more minutes. We don’t have to wrap up whatever we covered yet.

[00:25:38.94] spk_3:
Well, one of the fun things we talked about not fun at all. It was how to apologize appropriately.

[00:25:45.24] spk_1:
Okay, well, you gave a good example of the animal shelter. Were,

[00:26:02.84] spk_3:
But if it’s offensive, what we’ve all noticed in, you know, in our media consumption in the last couple of years. Is all of these people, uh, providing apologies? You know, apologies.

[00:26:25.34] spk_1:
Backhanded apologies, if backhanded apology. If anyone was offended. Exactly, I didn’t intend it. And I regret that they’re offended. So it’s like it’s like their fault. It’s your fault for being offended, right? I regret that you’re offended, you know? All right, talking about her one. Horrible. Yeah,

[00:26:36.14] spk_3:
it’s horrible. And we actually said, Be sure if someone if someone said something offensive, be sure they say I offended. And I apologize.

[00:26:37.31] spk_1:
We should follow, you know, making human. There’s a human behind this apology. Not it wasn’t written by a

[00:26:43.58] spk_4:
robot. You know, it’s not like a template apology. Yeah, 100. An apology

[00:26:50.44] spk_1:
if anyone was offended. I’m sorry that they are regret that they are people who won’t even say step. Probably won’t even say sorry. I regret that. It’s unfortunate that you are

[00:27:01.19] spk_3:
all

[00:27:16.04] spk_1:
right. All right. What else you want to, um Let’s see. Anybody who wants to take us out with, uh, parting parting advice for the Let’s stick with the Gaff. I like that. That was the most animated part. The somebody take us out with good gaffe advice.

[00:27:19.24] spk_3:
Well, I’ll tell you one of the things we had fun coming up with Shefali and I, um, included. We gave a little bit of conference swag in some some checklists and things that people

[00:27:31.03] spk_1:
can take.

[00:28:21.14] spk_3:
And we also provided a little freebie five subject lines to try if you made a mistake. So this is how this is how to get somebody to open your email apology. And so we came up with we came up with. Well, this is awkward. Um, let’s see if we can get our apology right. You deserve our best. You didn’t get it. Can you forgive us? Name of donor and then my favorite. I think this is shit follies. Um, the email you were actually supposed to get name. Okay, So just kind of helping people out. We have. We have unfortunate reasons. Were knowing that all of those emails are successful. Um, so a

[00:28:35.84] spk_1:
lot of communications is gonna be a lot of mistakes. I mean, it’s going to happen. It’s humans. You don’t you don’t strive for them. Obviously you strive not to like Julie was saying, but but with QA. But it’s going to happen now. What about this? I don’t like I don’t like teasing nonprofit radio listeners, and then they don’t get anything. What about this checklist you mentioned? So

[00:29:03.24] spk_2:
those five subject lines along with a variety of other things, including some of the most common QA mistakes to watch for, um, at sinking dot com slash ntc 21 you can download a pdf that has whole bunch of good checklist for both avoiding mistakes. And then what to do if you made a mistake.

[00:29:07.44] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:29:13.54] spk_2:
so that was Thank you. Slash And so sink e ink dot com slash ntc 21.

[00:29:20.54] spk_1:
Got it and sank is s a N k y. Thank you dot com slash ntc 21. All

[00:29:24.33] spk_3:
right.

[00:29:43.34] spk_1:
Thank you. Think as opposed to what I said, which was Thank you. Thank you, Link. All right, Nobody talked. Now nobody talked. Thank e ink dot com slash ntc 21 You betcha. Thank you. All right. I don’t like cold, madam. Non profit your listeners. Alright, Good. So they can get the resource there. We’re gonna leave it there. Julie’s if sent Vice President of Accounts and Strategic Services. Claire Thomas, Copy Director Shefali Rao, senior copywriter all at Sancti Communications. Thank you very much. Wonderful.

[00:30:01.56] spk_3:
Thank you so much Fun.

[00:32:49.14] spk_1:
Real pleasure. I enjoyed it. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC 2021 Nonprofit Technology Conference where we are sponsored by We should be sponsored by sank Communication with all these shout outs I’m giving, but we’re not. We’re sponsored by turn to communications sank e ink dot No, not spanking dot com Turn to communication. Turn hyphen two dot c o responsible. I turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot c o thanks to each of you. Thank you very much. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications relationships turn to has the relationships with media outlets, journalists, even bloggers podcasters like me they have the outlets to get you placed When there’s a reason for you to be in the news. There’s some news hook that they can grab and they can talk to the Chronicle of Philanthropy, CBS Market Watch, et cetera. They’ve got the existing relationships and they’ll leverage them to your advantage because you’re their client. You get in the media, turn to communications. Turn hyphen two dot c o It’s time for Tony. Take two. How are you? How are you doing? Have you had a vaccine? How’s your family doing? Your family been vaccinated? I’m interested. I’m interested in how listeners are doing. I sent this out asking folks who get the insider alert our weekly insider alert. And I got a bunch of responses back. People. People told me how they’re doing. Tell me what’s going on, How they’ve been what? What It’s like, uh, planning to go back to work, etcetera. So I turned it to listeners. That’s you. How are you doing? How’s your family? Let me know. You can use my email. Here it is. It’s not gonna be able to use it and give it to you tony at tony-martignetti dot com. Tony at tony-martignetti dot com Let me know how you are That is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for nonprofit radio. Here is talking mental health in your workplace. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC, The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. My guest now is Dan Burstein. He is founder at M H. Mediate. Dan. Welcome to our coverage of 21 NTC.

[00:32:59.94] spk_0:
Thank you very much for having me.

[00:33:15.94] spk_1:
Pleasure. Absolute pleasure. We’re talking about something that’s important. That’s not talked about enough. Your session is talking mental health in a virtual workplace. There’s there’s stigma around mental health. Is it? Is it Is it worse now in a

[00:35:38.34] spk_0:
virtual world? Um, I would say that, and I’ll just say, I’ll just say that, you know, my background is I’m a mediator and I do work to help people talk about mental health. But I also personally live openly with bipolar disorder. And I would say that stigma is a funny thing, because when we think about stigma, we think about well, do people have a negative attitude towards someone having a mental illness? And as time has gone on the general climate of negative attitudes to someone having a mental illness, I believe is shifted so people are more accepting of the idea that someone might have a mental health problem and we need to work with the fact that everybody in the workplace has mental health needs of some kind and people might need take a personal day or something. The interesting thing is, what kinds of ideas do people have about what do you do when you see that somebody may or may not have a mental health problem? And that’s where so much talk has happened during the pandemic, where, UM, people are saying, Well, what do we do? How do we pay attention to our co workers? How do we notice if there’s a mental health problem and help them? Their statistics out that about half of people have some kind of mental health symptoms now during the pandemic. And so there’s a lot of people have these good intentions that they want to find a way to support someone who has a mental health problem. But the way that they offer that support might actually be stigmatizing. And, um, one way of doing that is if you assume someone needs help. So if someone hears I have bipolar disorder, or even if someone notices, I’m having personal issues at work, if they approach me with the assumption that I need their help, that that’s paternalism and that’s one kind of stigma, another type of stigma and I’ll end it right there is, um, another type of stigma is, if you believe, for instance, Oh, well, Dan has bipolar disorder, but if he goes to the doctor and he takes his medicine, Dan will be fine. Where you that’s That’s an accepting idea. But that’s not how it works for everyone, because I have a choice about how to take care of my mental health. And plenty of people don’t get better even when they take medicine, because they have side effects or treatment resistance. And it’s a difficult journey for them. And so sometimes there’s an oversimplification of we have all the answers for someone’s mental health. Now you just need to come tell HR tell somebody, and we’ll be able to get you the help you need. Use the employee assistance plan. You’ll get your help, and we have it all figured out. And that creates a lot of stigma as well, because it puts that pressure on people to have their mental problems figured out or solved.

[00:35:59.64] spk_1:
Okay, so we want to. We want to be able to say the right things and avoid these Gaffs around dealing with folks who may need help and you said during the pandemic, What’s the statistic? Like as many as 50% of people have have some mental health needs. Intervention needs. Doing what

[00:36:56.43] spk_0:
I would say is 100% of people have mental health needs. So that means, you know, everybody has stressful days. They get to have worried, overwhelming, take care of ourselves like we’re all in a spectrum. In a normal year, one in five people will have a diagnosable mental health problem. So that’s what a normal year looks like. It’s about 20% of people will have a diagnosable problem now with the pandemic, it’s been. About half of people have been reporting mental health symptoms of some kind, and that’s for a number of reasons. That’s partly because of the social isolation, the fear of the illness, getting sick from the pandemic. Um, you know, losing your job. I mean, so many things are happening that are possible stressors that can trigger someone to have a mental health problem. So putting it all together, the data has shown that about half of people are having some kind of mental health symptoms that they’re reporting.

[00:37:09.23] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So yeah, 2.5 times as much as a as a as a normal year.

[00:37:10.53] spk_0:
All right? Exactly. So it’s more relevant now than ever. Accept that we all always have mental health stuff going on in some degrees. So I like to say it’s always relevant all the time for us to do.

[00:38:08.32] spk_1:
Yeah, fair point that. Everybody. You’re right. 100% of people have mental health needs. That could be as easy as I need. I need an hour away. Uh, I need I need quiet. I I gotta be with people. I’m too. I feel like I’m twice later, I got to get outdoors. I mean, those are all us, uh, responding to what we’re feeling in the moment and trying to take care of ourselves. Exactly. You’re right. Of course. 100. You’re right. Not that I thought you would be wrong, but yeah, you give voice to it. 100% of us have mental health needs. Absolutely. All right. Um right. So can we Can we flush these two things out? You know, assuming that people need help or that is assuming that the answers are simple. Is there Is there more like is there. Are there more ways we can help people avoid saying the wrong

[00:41:26.41] spk_0:
thing? Yeah, So what I usually do and what I taught in the workshop at the conference is, um, I try to focus on people remembering that when we’re in the workplace, we have to know what our role is. So are are you this person’s, um, you know, support system. Are you this person mental health treatment professional? Or are you there co worker or boss? If your co worker or boss you should start thinking what’s appropriate for me as a vantage point to engage in the topic of mental health and what what really is appropriate is talking about the behaviors in the workplace and how they affect the workplace. So you may see somebody who let’s say their absence a lot, and that’s not like them. And it’s not really appropriate work, even if it were like them. And so you’re thinking, Gee, from the way they look, they remind me of my friend from college who suffered from depression, and I might go over to them. And I might say, You know, Dan, uh, you’re absent a lot. I’d like to refer you to the employee Assistance Plan, which offers free counseling benefits. Or I’d like to suggest a way to help you with your mental health. I’m concerned that might be an issue that is wrong, because done now is you’ve added the backstory of your idea of what their mental health might be from your personal experiences instead of just focusing on what you’ve seen in the workplace, which is the absence is. So the better conversation is to sit down and say, Um, you know, Dan, I’ve noticed that you’ve been absent and I’d like to talk to you about how that affects the workplace and what we can do to manage that going forward and follow that conversation forward about the behavior. And then there’s ways that you can integrate mental health, you know into that conversation. And the typical way is to say, you know, whenever anybody is absent three times or whenever anybody misses this many deadlines or whenever anybody turns in lower quality work, we always let them know that there’s resources here to help them. And here’s a handout that includes all the resources we have that includes the employee assistance plan, etcetera. But what we’ve done here is we’ve taken the behavior indicator and we said, Okay, my role is really about the behavior I’d like to offer mental health support. You don’t have to. I’d like to offer mental health support. So what I do is I find a way to do it without singling anybody out. And I regularly promote these resources, um, and link it to clear behavior based criteria when I do it, as opposed to my hunch that I’ve seen something and I’m guessing, if you may are made out of a mental hunch about you, right, So that’s 11 way to look at it and that covers most situations. The the other thing that happens, Um, so that covers if you if you if you see you know performance problems at work or if you see inappropriate conduct, you can do the approach, I just said, But the other thing that can happen is someone can come and disclose to you, and they can disclose to you either just in passing like I did on this program and say, I have bipolar disorder and that’s it. Or they can disclose to you by saying, you know, I have bipolar disorder, I have depression and I’d like to change something here in the workplace. And at that point, most workplaces of a certain size have a responsibility legally to consider what’s called a reasonable accommodation for disability. And so there is a process for talking about that, and the American

[00:41:29.53] spk_1:
is that’s under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[00:42:56.00] spk_0:
Yes, this is under the Americans with Disabilities Act, reasonable accommodation. Most Most organizations do not talk about this very well in the sense that they have a policy. If somebody asked for a reasonable accommodation, but they don’t educate the managers and the staff of when someone says something that could be a request for an accommodation. Um and so the example that I give is You know, a lot of people hear me say, I have bipolar disorder and they go, Whoa, that’s serious. Do you need help, Dan, Um, you know, But if I said, Oh, I’m feeling depressed right now and I need some time off I might not realize that that person is suffering from major depression and they’re actually asking for a disability accommodation. So it’s very dangerous to use your own judgment of whether or not a situation is serious enough to refer to H R or to refer to the disability accommodation on policy. And so what you really need to do is, um, when someone shares anything that includes two elements, which is possible health condition and that requests for a change in the workplace you should have, you should offer to process it like a disability accommodation. Um, and you should not, as a manager, informally offer the health, because even though you think you’re doing that person a favor, you’re making that person feel insecure that there’s not a real system to take care of them and instead that they’re relying on the goodwill of their manager. And that’s not a comfortable thing. In addition to the fact that if you’re letting the manager do these ad hoc favors, um, you’re opening up the possibility that there might be discrimination where whoever the manager notices, some people get, some people don’t etcetera, and and that becomes a problem. So that’s basically the whole gamut of interactions. You can have that work related mental health.

[00:43:21.80] spk_1:
So what is so what is the best way? By the way, I don’t know if you can hear There’s vacuuming because I have a contractor preparing my stairs, and

[00:43:22.84] spk_0:
I can’t hear the vacuuming, but I I feel for you.

[00:43:44.10] spk_1:
Okay. Thank you. I was feeling for you because I thought it might be distracting. Uh, well, if you hear vacuuming or pounding, it’s on my end. Okay? There’s no one trying to break into your home. What? So what is the appropriate thing to say? Then tell us, You know, like, if you can script it, what should What should the supervisors say when the person presents with these two? You know, these

[00:46:51.98] spk_0:
two criteria? I think they should just ask, you know. Oh, I I hear you’re saying that, um I hear you saying this and that. Would you? You know, would you like us to, um, Steve, there’s a way to adjust the workplace as part of an accommodation. This is what we say to anybody who presents with a possible health issue and, um, request for help. And most people will say No, I don’t I don’t want to do it as an accommodation. Um, and I’m saying this also with the caveat that you should go to your own HR department and find out how they want you to do this, but because they have their own practices and they have their own attorneys that have decided how to do it at your organization. But the key thing is, a lot of people at the organization don’t understand that regularly. People are saying things that could be a request for accommodation. And the fact that you would take it more seriously if I say I have bipolar disorder than depression is on its face. Discriminatory because you know you don’t realize it because you’re just thinking you’re being nice. You’re being supportive. Um, you know, But, um, but it’s just it’s just it’s better to have a uniform approach where anytime anybody shares any kind of health need while asking for for some kind of change at work, you refer someone, and if somebody just shares it like I said, I have bipolar disorder. Um, don’t assume they need help. So that’s the other piece. You need both elements before you offer the accommodation for all. Otherwise, there’s some lessons about generally how to talk about mental health. Um, and people can get resources that I promoted on the conference. I guess we could add a link to go with this podcast. But I could say that you are l, um, Dispute resolution and Mental Health Initiative is where you can get the free resources. So it’s D r M h initiative dot org. There’s a lot of resources there to help you figure out ways to talk about mental health and empowering ways. Um, one example is person first language. So you wouldn’t say Dan is bipolar because that’s defining me by my condition. You would say Dan has bipolar disorder, or Dan, um, you know, has a diagnosis of bipolar, you know, or whatever it may be, Um, the other thing is, you should really never make any assumptions. So when someone says something to you, the easiest thing to say is, Oh, what What do you want me to know from that? What do you want me to know from that? Instead of jumping in and saying, Oh, I have a friend who also has, um, you know, depression, right? Or I’m depression myself. I’m anxiety. You know, someone says to you, Hey, I’m mentioning, um that I have, uh, I’ll use me again as an example. Bipolar disorder, you can say. Oh, Dan, I hear you. You know what? What do you want me to know from that? And I said, Oh, you know what? I’m fine. I don’t need anything. I’m just open with everyone so that, you know, I just was saying it because it’s just what I do to feel more comfortable or it’s just part of what I do for my work. Um, but but But most people, when they hear something like that, they go into their hole on their whole inner wheel in their head. Um oh, what do I do to help this person?

[00:46:53.73] spk_1:
What I read about that. Yeah, I

[00:47:03.18] spk_0:
read about that. And it’s the actual advice to take care of. This is it’s actually quite simple. Don’t listen to yourself. Listen to the person who’s talking and make sure you hear what their ideas are and what their desires are. Um, to guide the conversations and there’s a lot more to it than that. You can get those resources again at D. R. M. H initiative dot org.

[00:47:19.48] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, since we’re talking so much about bipolar, why don’t you acquaint folks with what it means to have a diagnosis of bipolar.

[00:49:52.37] spk_0:
Sure, well, but well, every mental health diagnosis because of the nature of what a mental health problem is, where it affects your thoughts and feelings and behaviors is unique to each individual. So I don’t want anyone to generalize from my story to other people. But I have bipolar disorder. It’s a mood disorder, which means I have trouble regulating my moods to some degree. And because it’s bipolar, there’s two different types of ends of the spectrum. On the one hand, there’s the low mood, which is depression. Um, what differentiates me from someone who has a diagnosis of depression is there’s also periods of high moods, which can be mania or hypomania. Traditionally, people think of that as you get very euphoric. Um, but you can also, which means very happy. But you can also have a very upsetting or dysphoric mania. And there’s a lot. There’s a lot of complexity, so I don’t want people to walk away thinking they know what it means that someone has bipolar for me. I was 19, um, in college, and I didn’t sleep for four straight days until I was then hospitalized and they checked my brain and, um, saw that I didn’t have drugs in my system. I didn’t have a brain abnormality physically on the scan and diagnosed me with bipolar disorder. Because if you have one of these big up episodes where you don’t sleep and you talk faster than I’m talking right now and you engage in erratic behaviors, um, that is definitive for a diagnosis of bipolar. Basically. So, um, if you just have depression, you don’t know if someone’s going to have depression or not, because you need to see that up episode to know that somebody has bipolar disorder. So for me, I was 19. I had that episode in college. I missed a semester of school, you know, got hospitalized and I’ll stop the story there. But it’s obviously a long story of life with a mental illness. Um, and it’s complicated, and it’s just one of many people’s different stories. Some people go to the hospital. Some people don’t. Some people take medications some people don’t, and that’s why what’s important is to let people tell their story and tell you what they want you to know. Instead of asking your own questions and pro and probing. Um, what? Your question was totally appropriate, Um, for this podcast. But in general, if you’re at work, you know, you keep your head down, and when someone brings it up to you, you listen to them and you ask them what they want to talk about. And you follow some of the other skills that you can learn to be empowering and talking about mental health.

[00:49:54.57] spk_1:
So a better way to ask. What would you like me to know

[00:49:57.77] spk_0:
about? What Would you like me to know and or just Yeah, or just I mean, you can say diagnosed. You can say anything, but yeah. I mean,

[00:50:05.84] spk_1:
what would you like me to know

[00:51:19.56] spk_0:
about what you’re saying, what you know or what are you? What are you trying to convey to me? You know, the idea is less about specifically what you say and more about showing the person a few things. So number one is I’m listening to you. I want to hear your ideas and your story. You’re you’re empowered in this conversation. So that’s one thing you’re trying to do. The other thing that I mentioned earlier, it’s really important is I’m not judging you and singling you out to treat you differently than other people. So those are the themes that you want to show with. Everything you’re trying to do is to say we we we check in on everybody who is absent, we check in and everybody who misses deadlines, you know, we have the same conversation. It’s better to give a written handout because with the written handout, um, people can see Oh, yeah, You didn’t just make this up just because you’re freaked out by me. You you give this out to everybody. So those are the key principles that are the most important. And if you say the wrong thing along the way, um, you know that’s not always pleasant for someone. But if they can see that you’re really trying to be fair and treat them like somebody else and if they can see that you’re really trying to listen to them, then you’re going to have a good outcome. And and that’s not just when there’s a mental health problem involved, that’s actually all communication. Um, you know, in all interactions, it’s good to do those

[00:51:22.44] spk_1:
things listening,

[00:51:23.50] spk_0:
listening, listening

[00:51:24.73] spk_1:
just as I just cut you off as you’re talking. But I’m saying, but I’m emphasizing, Yeah, listening appropriately. Careful

[00:52:24.25] spk_0:
listening. Um, and what happens with mental health is a lot of times people see mental health niche and they start panicking about what do I do? What do I do? And it’s like, actually, you should really just focus on treating everyone great all the time, and then you won’t have any problems. And and And that’s where I come in as a trainer or, um, you know, to help different organizations is, you know, basically what happens is they have They have some missteps and how they’re dealing with mental health. And so we address those. But it’s actually addressing the culture for everyone because as we started, um, this podcast 100% of people are having mental health needs 100% people, um, you know, might need to communicate about feeling sad or worried or overwhelmed or having a rough day and and and these skills will benefit in all those situations. Um, you know, as long as you get to that mindset of the empowerment and treating everybody the same, all

[00:52:50.55] spk_1:
right, that’s excellent. And I’d like to leave it there if you make you make your points very, very clear. Very succinct. I do want to leave folks with DRM H initiative dot org for Dispute resolution and Mental Health Initiative. DRM h initiative dot org For all the valuable resources you were talking about, Dan Dan Burstein, founder M. H. Mediate Dan, Thank you very much.

[00:52:51.89] spk_0:
Thank you for having me.

[00:53:56.85] spk_1:
Awesome. Valuable Thank you and thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC were sponsored at the conference by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o Next week. More 21 NTC panels If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for March 8, 2021: Domestic Terrorism and Your Nonprofit & 21NTC

My Guests:

Mickey Desai, Heidi Beirich & Pete Clay: Domestic Terrorism & Your Nonprofit
Insurrection at the US Capitol. Insurrection by redditers against hedge funds. Our nonprofit community is also at risk of domestic terrorism, regardless of mission. What are those risks and what can you do to minimize them? In collaboration with the Nonprofit SnapCast podcast, my guests are Mickey Desai, SnapCast host, Heidi Beirich at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism, and Pete Clay with CyberOpz.

 

Amy Sample: 21NTC

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns to reveal what’s planned for NTEN’s virtual 21NTC on March 23 to 25. Many of their smart speakers will be guests on Nonprofit Radio over the next months. Amy is NTEN’s CEO and our social media and technology contributor.

 

 

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[00:02:22.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of synesthesia if I sensed that you missed this week’s show. Domestic terrorism and your non profit insurrection at the US Capitol Insurrection by Reddit Ear’s against hedge funds are non profit. Community is also at risk of domestic terrorism, regardless of mission. What are those risks and what can you do to minimize them? In collaboration with the nonprofit snap cast podcast, my guests are Mickey D’s I Snap cast host Heidi Barrick at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism and Peat Clay with Cyber Ops, also 21 T. C Amy Sample Ward returns to reveal what’s planned for intends Virtual 21 NTC on March 23 to 25. Many of their smart speakers will be guests on nonprofit radio over the next months. Amy is N ten’s CEO and our social media and Technology contributor. On Tony’s Take two podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is domestic terrorism and your non profit. It’s my pleasure to first welcome Mickey D’s I. Mickey and I are co hosting this week’s show. His podcast is non profit snap cast. He invented the nonprofit snapshot, a micro assessment and dashboard for nonprofits. His past includes work at IBM Tech Bridge and Southern Crescent. Habitat for Humanity. Mickey is at NP Snapshot and the company is at nonprofit snapshot dot org. Mickey. It’s a pleasure to co host with you. Welcome. Thank

[00:02:25.39] spk_4:
you, tony. Glad to be here today.

[00:03:30.24] spk_1:
Absolutely. Thank you for coming up with this idea. Thank you. It was a team effort. That was good. It was your idea. I adopted it immediately. I’ll give you that. But it was your I was very I jumped on it. But it was your idea originally, right. Heidi Beirich, also with us. She is co founder and chief strategy officer at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism. She’s an expert on American and European extremist movements, including white supremacy, nativism, anti Semitism and anti government movements. She has appeared repeatedly on major television networks and in documentaries and radio programs and now a podcasts exploring extremism. Had he led the Southern Poverty Law Center’s intelligence project, the premier organization tracking hate and anti government movements in the United States, she’s at Haiti. Barrick, B E I. R I, C. H. And her organization is at global extremism dot org. Heidi. It’s very good to have you. Thanks for being with me and Mickey.

[00:03:32.94] spk_2:
Oh, I’m thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me

[00:04:03.74] spk_1:
a pleasure. And Peter Clay Pete Clay has a 25 year career in cybersecurity. He has served as chief information security officer cso for three very different organizations as a consultant to large international financial organizations, including the World Bank and multiple U. S. Federal agencies. He’s founder of cyber ops at Cyber Ops. That’s oh, pz cyber OPC dot com. Pete. Welcome to thank you, Tony and nonprofit Snap guest.

[00:04:11.54] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

[00:04:37.14] spk_1:
Pleasure. Thank you for doing this with us. Hey, I got a first question for you. Um insurrection at the U. S. Capitol Insurrection by Reddit Ear’s against a Wall Street hedge fund. That bet against Gamestop and AMC stock. These two things monumental happened within a month of each other in January and February, Our nonprofits potential targets of insurrection.

[00:06:05.74] spk_2:
I don’t think there’s any question that nonprofits could ultimately be targets in this kind of mob action like you saw in particular off of Reddit related to the Gamestop stocks. Uh, you know, when nonprofits right about advocate about things that folks don’t like, This is probably the most likely way that you’re going to see an attack. Come. And I can just tell you from my years at the Southern Poverty Law Center, my work now at the Global Project Against Hate and extremism. We while I was at SPLC, and now we write a lot about the kinds of people that were involved in the insurrection at the Capitol. And when you do that, you are absolutely going to get harassed. Online. Doxed Online Targeted online. Fake news Produced about you Online. You can have mass hits to your Twitter feed from people attacking you, and, you know, there there are a lot of other things that can happen, including attempts to, you know, disrupt your Web services. Attack your payment systems so it’s more serious than just somebody saying you know that I’m a communist liberal and and should die, right? They can actually attack the systems that the nonprofit relies on to function. And there are real world effects because sometimes there is a need for security in real life, as if these things become threatening enough. And and it can include up to death threats, which we received many, many times, especially while I was at the Southern Poverty Law Center.

[00:06:45.84] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, it’s incredible. And you’re right. The physical attacks could be physical. That could be virtual. That could be reputational. Uh, and I want to broaden it to I I think I want folks to realize that it doesn’t have to be that you’re doing controversial work like you are, you know, fighting extremism and nationalism. White supremacy. Um, I mean, it could just be something that a group or even a person just doesn’t like. Like you could just you could be doing environmental work. Or you could be you could be feeding the homeless, and somebody in your community feels that your your efforts are your your work is worthless and and should be devoted to something that that that that that person thinks is important. It doesn’t even have to be controversial. Like like gun violence or gun control or or planned Parenthood or something, right? I mean,

[00:08:00.04] spk_2:
no, I think that’s exactly right. I mean, nowadays, with this technology at your fingertips, right, the ability to zoom bomb people, you know, send them direct, hateful, direct messages reply to tweets online that any person really can have access to this and and engage in it so quickly. Before you could even report it right to like a Twitter or Facebook, anybody could be maligned this way. Also, it’s very easy to put up fake websites, right, That targets someone with a bunch of falsehoods. You could you know, a YouTube video can go up in seconds or on TIKTOK. So, yeah, anybody who doesn’t like what you’re doing And I suppose this would apply to corporations and all kinds of things has at their fingertips the ability to to smear you, smear your work, you know, liable You all kinds of and threaten you. So that’s right. You don’t even have to be doing something controversial. If one person or a group of people like you saw with the coordinated activities off of Reddit. Decide you’re their target. Well, this is very easy to do to somebody.

[00:08:21.84] spk_1:
Yeah, and the one person we can look at Walmart, Walmart in El Paso. The synagogue in Pittsburgh. Um, other examples, Uh, the black church, the black church. Mass murder in South Carolina. All individual individual actors. Um, Mickey, I want to turn over to you. What? What do you What do you want to do? What do you want to ask? Well,

[00:08:43.14] spk_4:
I have a number of questions, actually. But let’s listen, I’m trying to actually narrow it down to one. Um, and I don’t know who exactly to address this too, because I think it applies to both Heidi in your experience, Um, that the two questions that I kind of wanted to touch on briefly are, uh do you have any quick insights and to into what leads people to extremist behaviors? And, um, is there a way to to separate and quantify the odds of real life crime versus cybercrime?

[00:10:52.64] spk_2:
Those are good tough questions, Vicky, Uh, honestly, we don’t really have great research on what causes one person to become an extremist who is exposed to a whole bunch of terrible ideas and somebody else doesn’t necessarily go down that path. You know, Tony just mentioned the attacks in Pittsburgh and in El Paso and in Charleston. In those cases, each of those individuals had imbibed a bunch of white supremacist ideas. That’s what led to them to commit those attacks. But those particular ideas, sadly, are rampant across a lot of different social media and websites. So the question becomes, Why Dylann roof in Charleston, right? Why? Why the guy in Pittsburgh? Why does this particular individual snap? You know, there are a lot of theories, especially coming out of the FBI’s behavioral unit, on people who collect grievances, perhaps have domestic violence in their past. Or alternatively, in many cases come from broken families. So they look to white supremacy as a way to sort of replace that in a way that’s similar to maybe kids joining gangs, right kids of color. But it’s the data is not very sophisticated, and we don’t know a lot about it, And this is part of the reason why the federal government looks like it’s going to be pouring some serious money into research on this front so we can tease these things out better. Uh, and there’s a lot of work that needs to be done with, you know, big online data sets to try to figure out what are the triggers. Look, the one thing we know is that in the last few years, the ranks of white supremacists have grown, and the age of the people joining them has been falling. So very young, particularly white males are getting sucked into this universe. And so, you know, there’s something about the online thing that has more of an impact than when you used to experience these ideas out in the real world. There’s something going on there that’s particularly dangerous. Okay, Mickey. Now I’ve have forgotten what your second question was. Can you tell me again?

[00:10:58.90] spk_1:
I do that all the time. I’m so glad to questions like, write it down or I have to do the exact same thing. What was the other part?

[00:11:11.94] spk_4:
The other part is, um, is there a separation? Can you measure the fractions between real life in person? Crime versus cybercrime?

[00:11:16.34] spk_2:
Uh, what motivates it is that we,

[00:11:18.53] spk_4:
uh, frequency of incidents.

[00:11:21.44] spk_2:
Oh, gosh. I mean,

[00:11:23.06] spk_4:
that’s kind of redundant, but

[00:12:44.64] spk_2:
Well, I mean, the big thing that I spent time studying is how the online moves to the offline. Right? So how is it that it triggers domestic terrorist attacks? Basically, And so we’ve already mentioned a few of the big ones here. We can also talk about Christchurch, New Zealand attacks. There were two attacks, uh, in Germany in the last year, driven by white supremacy. I mean, the one thing I can tell you we know is there’s a particular type of propaganda. It’s called the Great Replacement. What it argues is that white people are being genocide in their home countries. I know this sounds lunatic, but this is what these people believe and being replaced by Muslims, immigrants, non white folks, often Jews are blamed for orchestrating this whole business. That particular ideology has motivated a ton of terrorist attacks. So we know that. But, you know, we could say the same thing about Cunanan, right? This cookie conspiracy about Democrats involved in child sex trafficking, no basis in reality didn’t exist five years ago, and last year, the FBI labeled that particular conspiracy theory as violence inducing, and we saw a lot of cute non supporters at the Capitol on January 6 during the insurgency there. So we know something’s trigger more violence than other things. But again, I think all of this requires a lot more research. And, you know, we’ve only had this social media capability for a very short period of time. So it’s not surprising that we’re kind of behind the eight ball and figuring all of this out.

[00:13:10.84] spk_1:
Heidi, I want to follow up with you on, uh, acceleration ism and what that’s about. But let’s bring Pete Clay in. Pete. What? What worries you on the on the cyber side? I mean, I’m not sure nonprofits are properly invested in cybersecurity thinking about it. Uh, have a plan. What? What? What concerns you on the around Nonprofits and and cyber

[00:16:55.54] spk_0:
tony. Let’s let’s keep it focused. First of all, on on Heidi, right? I Heidi. I live 10 miles outside of Charlottesville, Virginia. Um, so I kind of understand, um, and it’s fascinating to me because exacerbating that is, one person can appear to be 10,000 right online. And so when you start to look at what accelerates in these groups, you know, it’s there’s There’s several fascinating studies that were done about the early days of Wikileaks, where it looked like there were tens, hundreds and thousands of people that were working on Wikileaks and it was two guys, right? And the same thing with these movements and one of the attractions of the movement is I’m with people that think like I do. You don’t know if it’s one person or 10 people or 1000 people, right? It’s just people that think like I do, So all of those things and and highly, you know, Please protect yourself. You know how to do it. But protect yourself online, right? Because what we’ve seen and I’ve gotten pulled into several of the conversations here locally, people long after Charlottesville were over. We’re getting doxed and having fake news done. And as the trials played out locally and the Antifa supporters would show up at the trials, is this stuff just kept going on for years here? And so it’s so important to understand, Even before you talk about organizational protection, it’s so important to understand how to protect yourself, right, and it and it really starts from a personal protection standpoint of understanding that basically everything that you do online is tracked somewhere by someone. And and if that sounds really big brother ish, I don’t mean to alarm people. But, you know, I was just reading an article a little bit earlier today that says, now that two thirds of all emails have, um, tracking software tracking pixels built into them so they know when they were open. They know how long somebody looked at them. They know where the I P address was and all of those sorts of things. And so for anybody in Heidi’s line of work, it’s so incredibly important to practice good information, security protection because, first of all, the work that she’s doing is so incredibly important. But then, second of all, just to protect herself from online hysteria and nonsense turning into real world threat. And so all of those things can apply to, particularly for for nonprofits that engage in in Let’s call them that the anti hate approached to the world. If you’re going to annoy somebody, you have to have more than just antivirus and, you know, a cousin Bob that kind of does something for somebody, um, to kind of protect you because it is so simple. The vast majority of attacks today are automated attacks that somebody launched days ago. They may not even be pointed at you, but because you have a weakness they can exploit, they’ll run the attack through automatically. They’ll pull the information and then figure out what to do with it and how to monetize it later. And that goes for individuals or small nonprofits or big companies. So all of those things kind of kind of come into this one space together,

[00:17:27.74] spk_1:
so you need to have protections built. I mean, you need to have someone in your organization focused on this, Um, and again, it’s not just it’s not only the, you know, the folks doing important work like Heidi is doing. I mean, it could be an organization that’s to any to 99 a half percent of us would be just mundane work helping in the community. But somebody in the community doesn’t like it.

[00:17:30.54] spk_0:
Well, big, big,

[00:17:32.05] spk_1:
the potential threat is broad.

[00:18:00.24] spk_0:
The potential threat is huge, because again, what Heidi is doing in and Heidi, I I’m not trying to use you as an object lesson, but but you are a lightning rod in this sense. Right? Because the vast majority of non profits aren’t going to be specifically targeted. It doesn’t. You don’t have to annoy anybody to be the victim of a cyber attack. You just have to have the wrong configuration in place to be the victim of the cyber attack.

[00:18:30.44] spk_4:
It may make sense to describe exactly the difference between an opportunistic cyber crime versus a targeted cyber crime. You know, we’re Pete. If I’m not mistaken, you’re talking about someone who is basically just pinging tons of i ps to figure out where the vulnerabilities are, and then they can come back later and exploit them versus an activist or an extremist out there who is specifically targeting an entity that they don’t like in order to damage their system or to take their money or something like that There. Is there a difference between the way those two things are perpetrated,

[00:18:49.14] spk_0:
tony, Mickey, and again decide right there, man, I’m just going to use that. I’ve been decide right there. Um, I can scan the entire Internet every connected device on the internet for vulnerability in 45 minutes from the desktop that I’m sitting at

[00:18:59.44] spk_1:
can,

[00:22:48.24] spk_0:
right? Yeah, Anybody can you can. Any of us can write every 45 minutes? What that means is if I have knowledge and can do some very, very simple things. And in fact, you can actually buy kits for ranging from a couple $100 for not very good, one to a couple of $1000 for some pretty good ones that will actually take the information from that scanning and plug it into and just automate an attack that just works 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. And it just runs continuously. It’s completely non personal. If you have this vulnerability that it can exploit, it will exploit it, bring the information back and do whatever it’s going to be done with it, right? That’s a very different thing. Then when you see somebody you know the Southern Poverty Law Center. Um, I was doing some research about 10 years ago, and the Southern Poverty Law Center website was one of the top 15 most attacked websites on the entire Internet, and it was continuous. It was a continuous barrage. It was a continuous everything Yeah, that’s got those automated attacks in there. But it’s far more dangerous because people that understand how to break into systems are actively trying to take the information that they get from the Southern Poverty Law Center or from a website that they don’t like. And they’re actively using it to try to break in, to deface the website, to change messaging on the website, to get inside the system, to exploit um, sensitive information. And so all of those things are happening on an ongoing basis and where the cybersecurity markets have not done a good job is there are way too many products that are being sold out there as just buy our stuff and don’t you don’t have to worry about this anymore. There is no product in the world that actually that’s a true statement, for you have to take multiple products and kind of put them in the right position with the right architecture to be able to protect yourself. There are some that can cut a lot of risk, a good firewall. It’s almost worth its weight in gold if it’s properly configured and monitored, because the other thing that we see all the time is when we go in and we look after these great big data breaches, you can almost right. It’s almost like a metronome at this point. Such and such company had a data breach. I don’t know what happened here, the suspects that possibly broke into it because we all want to think some nation states actually breaking into everything when most of the time it’s honestly, something like one of those automated attacks that did something. Oh, the alerts all went off. Nobody responded to the alert. If your fire alarm goes off and you don’t respond to the fire alarm, it’s kind of on you at that point, right? So what’s really critical in cyber security is not just buying some products, but it’s having people that are at least understand how to respond to the alert and are responsible for protecting the organization. As it stands. It also gets a lot more complex because a lot of those services that Heidi talked about earlier are hosted and served by a different company, and you have to understand where their security stops and where your security has to begin.

[00:23:21.34] spk_1:
Pete, what kind of person is a nonprofit looking for, uh, I know the listeners to nonprofit radio, and I imagine that’s true for Mickey Show as well. Non profit snap cast. You know, there’s small shops they’re not going to have A. They may not even have a director of information technology, let alone. They’re certainly not going to have a chief information security officer. What are they? What are they searching for? What kind of expert are they looking for to to help, to advise them.

[00:25:19.74] spk_0:
So what they’re looking for is, First of all, one of the fastest growing areas right now in cybersecurity is for the first time in my 25 year career, cybersecurity experts are starting to show up on boards of directors, right either as advisers to boards or as board members themselves, because it’s considered to be critical. This is happening in the Fortune 500 as well as for much smaller companies. The second thing is to sit down and talk to your managed service provider. If you don’t have any of your it done in house, talk to the people that are providing your manage your manage security. If there are managed service provider, if they’re providing your your laptops and your endpoints. Chances are they’ve got some stuff that they can help you with at that particular point. What we found and the gap that we’re really filling in that market is we take big company information. I don’t want to turn it into a commercial. We take big company, enterprise level cybersecurity capabilities, and we deliver those two small companies at a very effective price. And so we are trying to make it as simple as possible for people to do the right thing. But before you go hire anybody before you go do anything, there is one thing that you can do that will take a ton of risk out. And that is train your people in cybersecurity. There’s a ton of stuff on YouTube. There’s a ton of free training out there and point after point after point. Before you buy firewalls and anti virus and endpoint protection and all of this stuff. Train your people because training your people has the most positive impact on reducing your cybersecurity risk that you can possibly imagine.

[00:26:13.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications outlets like The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch and The Chronicle of Philanthropy. Do you want to be in places like that? Do you want them talking to you and quoting You turn to has the relationships with outlets like these and others. So when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy or something related to the work, you do the call turn to turn to, we’ll call you turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to domestic terrorism and your non profit. Mickey, you got you got something I don’t want to.

[00:26:14.94] spk_4:
Yeah, no, that’s cool. I want to ask Heidi again. There’s there’s a number of questions I think I want to ask you that sort of hinge upon. How did you get into this area of interest? How what inspired you to to get into, uh, intelligence of this of this nature?

[00:30:18.24] spk_2:
Sure. Let me just say something about what Pete just said on the training your people. I got to tell you that, uh, especially especially when I was at SPLC. That’s where we found a lot of the major attacks coming in. Like in other words, if people hadn’t been known, don’t click on this thing. Don’t go open this thing, Don’t do this thing. It’s like we would have just been opening ourselves up to. And you’re right, these many, many attacks that that we were constantly sustaining. So I’m just I’m reminding myself of all the little trainings that made me do there and actually, how smart it was, even though I might have been annoyed by them at the time. Okay, Mickey, how did I get into this? Uh, it wasn’t entirely planned. I was working on a PhD. I’ve been studying fascist movements in Europe for a really long time and in Latin America, and I actually I was at Purdue University, and I thought I was going to become a professor and in my sort of job hunt that first year, um, I ended up for a bunch of not interesting circumstances taking an internship at the SPLC. And, uh and so I was I literally, during my time there, I did every single job in the department that I was in, right? Started as an intern, then was a staff writer, you know, up, up and up. And what I found when I went to work there is First of all, I’d always had this, uh, you know, visceral dislike of fascist movements, of white supremacy of what it does to people, perverts, democracies. You know, Obviously it’s one of the worst ideas ever come up by humankind, and and I found the fact that I was in doing activist work. In other words, I was there to expose these groups right about them. Let the public know about the law enforcement, know about them. And if I could do something to tamp down their activities, I found that just so much more satisfying than writing academic publications. That may have been important but didn’t have that kind of real world impact. So I sort of got hooked on. You know what good non profit student, no matter what they’re into, which is impact right? Whether that’s feeding people or housing people or it’s trying to, you know, break up white supremacy is a threat. Two Americans, in this case at SPLC. So that’s what really hooked me on it. And because I had a lot of background on these kinds of people, these movements, these groups, it was easy for me to hit the ground running and and and that’s why I stayed. I mean, I just It was that satisfaction of knowing Okay, we’ve just written an expose on this really vile group that celebrates the Confederacy, is growing at a very fast clip. This is slowing down their membership drives or we have found information on criminal activity by a particular group, and we’ve handed it off to law enforcement and they’re going to take care of it. And that means fewer domestic terror incidents or hate crimes or whatever the case might be down the road. And the other thing, that was really interesting about it. And I should say the Anti Defamation League does a lot of this similar kind of work. There are other groups that do. It was that at that time, So I got to the law center in 1999 in 2001, of course, where the horrible terrorist attacks 9 11. At that time, people weren’t really watching white supremacy and it was metastasizing and growing as we all focus, understandably so on the threat coming from, you know, the Middle East and Al Qaeda and so on. And and I think back to that time And I think if the splc and the HDL and some others weren’t doing that work, we would have known nothing about it. I mean, there would have literally been nobody paying attention to these movements at that time, and that would have been an absolute tragedy. So, you know, I’m really proud of having been able to do that work and keep doing that work now. But it was the impact part, the ability to make something happen that would make life easier on others. That really kept me and kept me in the game.

[00:30:31.34] spk_4:
The reason I ask is, you know, coming from my own background in mental health, we learn early on that if you’re in a position to be touching the darker side of human nature, the shadow side, as some people call it with any sense of regularity, then that is a good recipe for burnout. Unless you know how to really deal with that, you’re in a position to see the same thing on a societal level. How did you not burn out?

[00:32:05.34] spk_2:
Well, I took. I did take a lot of vacations, will admit, and sometimes you just have to take a break from the material. I mean, for some people, it’s harder than for other people. Right when you’re watching racist material all day long or anti Semitism, whatever the horrible thing, maybe it can. It can get to you. I will say that once. I made the decision last fall to, uh, leave the center and start this new organization to focus on transnational white supremacy is what? Which is what it is. Um, I took, like, four months off. I mean, I just It was it had been I felt like I’ve been running a marathon in particular since Donald Trump ran for office in 2015, and I did take a chunk of time off, and it’s a legitimate thing. I mean, I think a lot of organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center and others who monitor this information are starting to realize that maybe this isn’t something you should be doing 40 hours a week, right? The key to have breaks, you need to have access to therapy if you need it, and that it would be good to spend some of your time working on something positive, right? As opposed to viewing negative things all all the time I’ve actually heard questions I’ve had a lot of people ask me, Um, like, for example, there’s an organization called Hope Not Hate in the UK that tracks the same kind of extremism over there. And we’ve all had conversations in the last year saying, Well, what is it that you do for your staff, right? How do you protect your staff? How do you make sure it’s It’s, you know, sustainable, that you don’t want burnout? So it’s It’s really important, Mickey. And honestly, it’s a conversation that I never heard the first decade, decade and a half that I was doing this work. It’s as though the issue didn’t exist, right? Or at least in this sector, it didn’t exist. And now I’m glad that it has talked about

[00:32:28.14] spk_4:
right well, and you let up exactly to the point that I was hoping you’d make, which was at least we kind of touched on it. You know, the acknowledging that the burnout is there, but being burnt out can make you a little more vulnerable

[00:32:34.66] spk_2:
to harm,

[00:32:46.64] spk_4:
especially if you’re in a little a personal position where your your actual physical safety is on the line because I think it does. I think it dulls your awareness, and I think it makes you a little bit careless in the way that you might conduct yourself and I don’t know, correct me. If I’m wrong, I could be completely

[00:33:45.84] spk_2:
off base with that. No, I think that’s right. I mean, I don’t think there’s been enough sort of thinking about what the impact is of being exposed to this. What’s interesting is that you’re now seeing it. For moderators on the big social media sites, right? There was a big lawsuit announced yesterday by Facebook moderators, who feel that they’ve suffered considerable harms. Now they unlike what my experience was. They don’t get the positive experience to know that what they’re doing is probably helping people right there. Just looking at heinous material of all kinds, right involving Children is not just about hate material and taking it down and not really maybe getting the satisfaction of feeling like it’s achieving something, but But we just haven’t talked about it enough. There’s probably a callousness that gets, you know, it probably reduces your empathy and sympathy in many ways, so there’s a lot of side effects that we need to know more about, Especially when it comes to really gross content. And and there’s a lot of parts of the world where you know, nowadays and nonprofits you’re seeing that stuff. Even if that’s not what you’re monitoring, you may be subjected to it.

[00:35:13.84] spk_1:
Right? I d I experienced something like that myself in the I guess in the in the days when Richard Spencer and white supremacy were more talked about than they are now, Um, what was that like, I guess 2017 2018. Something like that. I started listening to a podcast called The Daily Show. Uh, what you say? Yeah. Yeah, the show. Uh, nobody knows. There are very few people know there’s the show is the Hebrew word for holiday for the Holocaust. So it the name of the show is the daily Holocaust. And and I wanted to get to know you know what? These people what do they talk about? How do they rationalize their thinking? What do they who Who are these folks besides Richard Spencer and and I after, um, I guess I binge listen for, like, a weekend or something, but I had to I had to put it down for a for a couple of weeks because it’s it’s so hateful and hurtful. Um, I experienced that. Personally, I I as much as I was still curious and I did go back to it. But, you know, like you’re saying, you know, you took a four month break. Your work is a lot more intense than mine. But just on my little microcosmic way, listening to one podcast for a bunch of ours, I couldn’t take it any longer, Had to put it away for a couple of weeks. Uh,

[00:36:09.13] spk_2:
I had a colleague. I have a colleague, not not name to be mentioned who have suffered some serious post traumatic stress. After watching, you might remember the Christchurch attacks at the two mosques where 51 people were killed were run on Facebook live, right? The guy livestream this and I have a friend who was, of course, we were monitoring these attacks as they were happening right at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and he told me for weeks and weeks after because we watched the video multiple times right to figure out what we could see what’s going on here, where they’re more Attackers, etcetera, etcetera. He said he was having nightmares. I mean, it really deeply, deeply affected him, which we shouldn’t be surprised by, right? I mean, and there’s probably I mean, I think about the victims and some of these attacks or the populations who are targeted by them. What that must feel like I can’t even imagine. Mm.

[00:36:22.93] spk_1:
Let’s go back to the to the nonprofit threat. I I did want to ask you about acceleration ism what, what, what that movement is and and how that could potentially be a threat to to the nonprofit order,

[00:38:27.22] spk_2:
well, acceleration ists who are typically neo Nazis. There’s a couple of big groups that people may have heard of the base. That’s the English translation for Al Qaeda. Actually, you know they’re Nazis, Autumn wife in which is a group named that means atomic weapons in German. What’s the What’s problematic about these groups in particular? Is that what they mean when they say they’re acceleration? Ists is their goal is to accelerate the end of democracies or social systems or social orders. They want to actually blow them up, rip them down, destroy them, replace them with, you know something neo fascist or whatever They’re fancy. They’re dark fantasies might be. And they’re involved in a ton of violence. A ton of violence had dozens of them arrested for plots involving murder, attempted murders, murders, killings. I mean, it’s really, really bad stuff. If you get in the if you end up in the sights of somebody like that, Um, you know it, it’s going to cost you. I mean, and the and the and the These are online movements. I mean, one thing I’m thinking about when Pete was talking about being targeted. These are not numb schools when it comes to Web technologies. These are people who are early adopters. They understand their messaging has to get out online. They know how to use tools and all kinds of things to affect the work of nonprofits and others who they don’t like. They dislike everybody that they perceive to be on the left, right. So this isn’t just about doing anti hate work. It could be any kind of entity that’s doing what I would consider social justice work or or, you know, work for the public good, especially if you’re something like black lives matters. You could easily be a target of these people, and they’re and they’re pretty scary. Um, you know, probably one of the ugliest websites in the country. It’s kind of they advertise. The Daily Show is called Daily Stormer, Right, named after a Nazi newspaper. Their Web master is on the run, living in Transnistria, part kind of an unregulated part of Moldova. And he runs a bunch of American websites, and he orchestrated attacks where he took over fax machines in universities around the world and put out anti Semitic propaganda. This guy’s clever. He’s clever, and he’s probably capable of doing just about anything. If he sets his mind to it online,

[00:38:44.12] spk_1:
we should we should go back to, you

[00:38:46.38] spk_0:
know, you shouldn’t what Heidi is talking

[00:38:49.65] spk_1:
about. You

[00:38:51.10] spk_0:
know, I tony, I appreciate it, man. I really do.

[00:38:57.72] spk_1:
It’s important for groups to know that, you know, they got to protect themselves online and how to do it.

[00:41:22.31] spk_0:
Yeah, but I’m also telling you that the map over my back right there, right is Oxford University. I spent my junior year there, Right. Um, my fascination was Germany 1923. Where did all this stuff starts and you know, also as a transplanted, grew up overseas and grew up other places. And so when we moved to the American South kind of adopted the whole mythology of the Confederacy and states’ rights, Not the slavery part of it, but the whole mythology of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson and all the rest of that. And I’m such a history freak. I won all of those arguments for 30 years, right? It was all about states’ rights. It was all about this stuff. And I ran into a You have a professor and over the course of about a three hour meal just got totally demolished in every argument that I made. And so it’s a fascinating concept that suddenly we have the Confederacy, which morphed in about 18 90 because they basically rewrote it in the Arthurian legend, right? Which is what we all learned in high school and college growing up. But now it’s been grafted onto nothing but pure Nazism, right? Moving forward and how that happened and and how that’s happening online, I think is it is at uh huh. Actually, one of the great stories of the data the military been talking to friends. They can’t tell the difference between the recruitment techniques used by Isis and used by Al Qaeda and used by by the white supremacists. The techniques are exactly the same with the same result. So what? Heidi? Heidi, I got your back. I’ll protect your organization wherever it is. You just got to tell me what you need. I got you. Okay, that’s that’s not the problem. Um, please don’t include that in in in the piece. But I’m just saying there’s no more important. This is what’s going to determine the outcome of our democracy in the next 2025 years.

[00:42:25.40] spk_4:
That’s it. If I can. If I can steer us back to some practical things that nonprofits can do to contend with this, you know, we’ve we’ve we’ve sort of been dancing around the issue of awareness of the magnitude of the problem and the various things that nonprofits might experience. Uh, Pete and I did a really excellent, uh, short snap cast episode on doing cyber security on a budget, so I don’t want to rehash that, but maybe it does make sense to sort of touch on some basic things with, uh, you know if we’re if we’re talking about nonprofits, that probably the vast majority of non profits are not going to be specifically targeted for their work of their ideology. Uh, probably the vast majority of non profits might become a victim of opportunistic crime. Um, but is the is the effort to defend themselves Are the steps that those nonprofits can take the same.

[00:46:22.78] spk_0:
The steps are the same. Now, Heidi, this is the part where you need to tune out. Not listening because you’ve got a different set of a different. You’ve got a different risk profile, Shall we say to use that term of art? Okay. But we can take care of you to we’ve got you covered. Um, first of all, figure out what is the least amount of it you can use to do your job and do it well and do it effectively. Right? So if you don’t have to turn everything on with your machines, the idea is is what is the minimum I can use because of the less you use, the fewer of those automated attacks you’re going to get hit with. Okay, The second piece of it is passwords aren’t terribly useful anymore. Okay? We used to think we used to be really, really silly people and we would run around and tell people You have to have a 12 character password with upper and lower case and special characters and all the rest of the stuff, and you have to change it between every 45 90 days and all the rest of that stuff and what we realized was we drove people insane and they quit listening to information security. People like me talk because we were snatching their lives away from them. What the bad guys were doing was they were capturing those password files and just replaying the entire hash. They don’t even decrypt them anymore. So you need to have two factor authentication for your bank account and for any of your communications, right? Any of your personal communication because that’s where those risks are. And if you’re multi factor authentication, in some cases now with really good stuff can be biometric where you type in your password, and then they just use the biometrics on your phone or whatever other devices out there, or cameras and everything else, and we’re seeing huge leaps forward in that stuff movement going on. Finally, you have to get past the idea of thinking that hackers are these hoodie wearing geniuses that can get into anything at any point at any time in the world, Right? There are people that work for nation states that what they do looks like magic, right? They’re all backed by huge research departments and huge capabilities that it takes a nation state to do that level of research. This stuff that’s come out about the solar winds attacks for the last in the last couple days. Make no mistake. Yes, they may have found a very simple password that an intern left years and years and years ago. By the way, that’s the most terminally stupid excuse ever given by a CEO for losing a major hack. Right? Let’s blame the intern. Um, but the guys that did that attack and the ramifications of it were backed by literally hundreds, if not thousands, of very highly trained engineers. Those guys are typically not coming after you unless you’re Heidi. If you’re Heidi, they may be coming after you. Um, but if you use multi factor authentication and you use and you patch your machines and you use good any virus and things like that. Do those things that are available to you. You’re going to stop the vast majority of those attacks. And then the way you deal with those attacks that just standard tools aren’t going to stop is you become what’s called resilience. Okay, resilience. Which means I have good backups of my system. You want to take over my laptop? Great, erase everything. Restore from backup. I’m back up and running in a couple hours. You haven’t stopped me. Okay? And that’s those are the important steps for any any, um, non profit out there to to kind of put together and to really think about.

[00:46:31.48] spk_1:
That’s cool. Pete, I’m not taking out the part where you pledge to have Heidi’s back. Your the information security guy with the heart. How can I take that out?

[00:46:47.68] spk_0:
Uh, I’m just telling you, I I got it. I got to meet one of my heroes today, and I didn’t even know Heidi’s name it. I’m dead serious. It’s, uh it is critical

[00:46:49.97] spk_1:
evidence of humanity. We’re not cutting that

[00:46:51.77] spk_0:
out. I’m a cybersecurity guy. I’m not human. We need to bite your tongue.

[00:47:01.98] spk_1:
You know all the evidence we can get for humanity. So, No, I think

[00:47:03.87] spk_4:
you’re right. I think Pete has the vapors, and we need to keep that in. Okay.

[00:47:08.27] spk_0:
No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, it’s appreciate you got a fan and a follower. Um, and and dead serious. If you need help, just reach out. We got your back. Okay, Um,

[00:47:22.98] spk_1:
it’s just but, uh,

[00:47:29.48] spk_0:
it’s hiding my only challenges. I know how they do it. So it’s really hard for me not to do it to them.

[00:47:33.18] spk_1:
That’s vindictive. Wow. He’s got a heart. But he’s vindictive. Double hedge, hedge

[00:47:42.32] spk_2:
effective. Not predictive,

[00:47:44.01] spk_1:
right. Friends stay friends with him. I

[00:48:04.77] spk_4:
have I have one quick question for Heidi, though. I mean, we’ve we’ve sort of talked about a ton of cybercrime and how to prepare for it and deal with that. But what if you become the target of of in life offline physical violence? How does a nonprofit decide to decide that their risk for that is significant enough that they should do something about it, and then what should they do about it?

[00:50:28.36] spk_2:
Okay, well, I’m not the expert at where the threshold exists. But I can tell you that when I was at the SPLC, there were a handful of people who were the targets because we were sort of the faces of the organization, right? Anybody who was doing media would be in that position, including my colleagues who are still there right now, right that are doing media against these kinds of folks. We brought in outside security experts with our security team to take a look at the volume of threats and the level of threats they spend a lot of time looking at, sort of almost like when you hear the chatter and Al Qaeda is increasing right and that would be a time when there might be a possible terrorist attack. You know, you hear the government say that we looked at those same sorts of trends and we had a very close relationship with the FBI field office in Montgomery, Alabama, and where other offices were so that we were constantly sending in threats and material and and we had very good protocols around bomb threats and other kinds of threats. These were just we had to train people just like he was talking about about protecting yourself with all this stuff online. There were trainings that were required for that. And if if somebody was, you know, very prominent, maybe this is a lawyer in a case right against a hate group, and so their faces plastered everywhere at a particular time. And the chatter was growing up. Going up. There were times when we actually had to put physical security on people as a measure. But I wasn’t really the expert who decided where that threshold was, but it was a proactive thing to do. And I think anybody who’s involved in activities that are seen as controversial or hated by a group of people, you know, I don’t know if it’s right, left or center. I don’t care where you’re coming from, but if you’re in that kind of basket where you’re going to, you’re going to face those kinds of threats. You really have to think about that physical security and there are differences between material posted online that’s demeaning or ugly or vile and what is a direct threat, and you have to really keep your eye on that. Like I remember at one point I got mailings at my home in Montgomery from Klansmen that were very cryptic and weird. That was a far more serious situation than people, you know, saying mean things about me on, you know, on Twitter. So you know, those are all. But I would say, you know, you need to talk to security professionals or at least local law enforcement, have a good relationship with local law enforcement. Um, if you’re doing work that could could lead to offline harms basically.

[00:50:32.86] spk_4:
So I should invite my beat cops over for breakfast every once in a

[00:50:36.53] spk_1:
while. I was going to ask about not only local, but FBI or Department of Homeland Security. I mean, on your depending on your visibility.

[00:51:59.26] spk_2:
Well, FBI is probably your best bet when it comes to threats in the world that I was in, because it’s also their responsibility to take care of domestic terrorism and extremism and whatnot. Right? So they had a knowledge like the local sack knew, knew a lot about the movement. It might be different depending on where you are in the country. We also did you know Well, I still do. Did law enforcement training on extremism, So we had a lot of contacts in federal agencies. We had good access, actually, to the people who knew these movements and understood the threat, which was lucky. But, you know, I’ve known people. I knew some folks were working in immigrants rights in Maryland who got vicious, vicious threats. Um, you know, by people who despise immigrants, despised Latinos and so on. And they didn’t have as good of access. And there were many, many times, many times over the years I’ve been reached out to by groups like that saying, What should I do? And it’s shocking, actually, that people don’t even know that the first thing you should do is pick up the phone, call your local law enforcement, call the FBI and preserve the evidence. It’s amazing how often people delete threatening emails threatening everything direct messages and voicemails. And you should never do that. You’ve got to collect that evidence and you’ve got to let law enforcement know.

[00:52:08.55] spk_1:
Honey, what’s a sack you mentioned? I’ve jargon jail on nonprofit radio. What’s your

[00:52:12.62] spk_2:
special agent in charge? Sort of. The head haunt show in the Montgomery FBI

[00:52:20.45] spk_1:
in a regional office. Special agent charge. Okay. Thank you. all right,

[00:52:21.35] spk_4:
jargon. Jail. That’s interesting.

[00:52:25.65] spk_1:
Yeah, we don’t like jargon. What do you think, Mickey? We tap these tap. These two experts.

[00:52:34.55] spk_4:
Yeah. Uh, you know, I don’t think I want to abuse them anymore. Um, but it’s up to you. I’ll defer to you if you have any other anything you want to touch. I think this has been a really good conversation.

[00:53:12.85] spk_1:
I think we I think we covered it. I think they covered it. Um, I’ll let you take us out. I just want to remind folks that they are Heidi. By Rick. She’s at High Heidi Barrick and her organization is at global extremism dot org. And Pete Clay, the chief information security officer who’s who’s a human being, has a heart. You’ll find his company at cyber ops dot com. Cyber oh, pz dot com. And so I want to thank Heidi and Pete and Mickey. Thank you very much again for thinking of this. Let you take us out.

[00:53:18.05] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony. It’s been a pleasure to work with you on this episode. Uh, that is tony-martignetti non profit radio, and I am Mickey. Decide with the nonprofit snap cast. Thank you for being our audience today. We’ll see you with another episode soon. Be safe.

[00:55:33.64] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s Take two. The podcast. Pleasantries Sometimes I’ve slipped up. I used to call podcast Podcast Pleasantries. The podcast Pleasantries are going out. They are. And they went out last week and they’re going out again. So So there you go. I’m grateful. I’m grateful that you listen to the show. I know the show helps you. I get emails saying I’m a board member. We listen, I listen, we talk about the stuff at our board meetings, I send it to the CEO. I get emails from C. E. O s saying they’re having their board members. Listen, I know it’s helping you fundraisers as well. Board members, consultants. I know we’ve got a smattering of consultant listeners. I’m grateful. I’m grateful that you’re listening, and I’m gratified that nonprofit radio helps you do your work. You’re bringing it to your CEO. You’re bringing it to your board. That’s terrific. It’s just raising conversations, right? Ideas, conversations and maybe often, I hope, action items. I’m glad. I’m glad. Non profit radio helps you do your work. So pleasantries to you, our podcast listeners that is Tony’s. Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time. Here is 21 NTC. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Amy Sample Ward. You know her? She’s the CEO of N 10 and our social media and technology contributor. Her most recent co authored book is social Change Anytime, everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at Amy R s Ward for Renee and Anton is n 10 dot org. How are you, Amy? Sample words. Good to have you

[00:55:36.04] spk_3:
back. Yeah, it has been a while somehow. I don’t know. Time. Time is an accordion, and

[00:55:42.05] spk_1:
I don’t know how it

[00:55:43.07] spk_3:
works.

[00:55:56.94] spk_1:
Time is that that’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that, but yes, I agree. I do agree. And, uh, yeah, it’s been a few months. It was. I think it was late, late, 2020 when you were last on and we chatted. You doing okay out there in Oregon? In Portland?

[00:55:59.64] spk_3:
Yeah. We are doing okay today. It feels like

[00:56:03.71] spk_1:
today That’s an important qualification. That

[00:57:30.03] spk_3:
today Yeah, they feel like we’ve had from fires to win to ice to pandemic. You know, it’s certainly been, uh, rough and unpredictable Number of months But we are just, you know, just short of the conference being live, and it feels so great. Because last year, of course, we didn’t get to have the conference. Um, but it also feels so weird because normally, uh, you know, we kind of call this the cupcake panic. I think folks who do events may understand this term of you get so close and there’s, like, so much to do and, you know, fun sponsors and committee members are like sending cookies to the office, And you’re just like, Well, I guess I’m eating five cookies right now. Like this is my lunch. I’m just in this time, I’ve got to do everything. And normally we would be doing that in an office filled with, you know, two pallets worth of boxes that we’re shipping up to to send to the conference. And you know, Stafford. Oh, my gosh, I just got through this person who can help me and kind of getting into it with each other. But now, of course, everyone’s just in their home quietly typing away on their computer and feeling like, Gosh, it feels like there’s a whole lot to do. Am I the only one that feels that way because you don’t really get to see each other in the same way. So

[00:57:42.33] spk_1:
all right, so let’s talk about 21 NTC. It’s coming up. Let’s make sure everybody knows the dates. When is it?

[00:57:46.43] spk_3:
It is March 23rd through 25th.

[00:57:48.87] spk_1:
Thank you. So

[00:57:50.02] spk_3:
a Tuesday through Thursday

[00:57:52.83] spk_1:
and we go to n 10 dot org to register

[00:58:06.02] spk_3:
yes and 10 dot org slash ntc is everything you need. Program registration, information about community events, anything you want.

[00:58:17.32] spk_1:
Okay. And 10 dot org Yes. And 10 dot org slash and TCC. Alright, So what are we facing this, uh, in this pandemic Virtual 21 NTC. What are we looking at?

[01:00:35.91] spk_3:
Well, you know, I think, um even though this is our first year doing an entirely virtual NTC, we’re really trying to take the same approach that we’ve taken and I think been known for for the 20 previous years, right, that the NTC is a conference, but it’s not like other conferences you go to, you know, it is it is about community and connection. And you know, the things that make you who you are not only your job title. You know, the lunchtime tables to find other people who like West Wing or, you know, whatever it might be. We’re trying to really design the conference from that as the center. So, um, at an in person, NTC we actually have, you know, had around 125 or more sponsors and exhibitors, and people can engage with them or not. I mean, quite honestly, because it’s in an in person conference. You walk wherever you want to walk, right? Um, and this year we’ve actually limited it to just around 30 because we didn’t want to have to give up so much of that virtual space to sponsors honestly. And that was our one way of thinking. Well, how can we really make this feel like this? Is those community conversations? Of course, technology providers, platform providers, consultants. We still want to register and be part of the conference. But like also join that West Wing conversation. Don’t just feel like you need to talk about the service you provide, or the product you provide, right? So we’ve really focused on the community peace, and there’s, I mean, there’s like different folks limiting meditation sessions Every day there’s live bands every afternoon. There’s all those community conversations, you know, folks that want to connect on different things and still 150 breakout sessions. So, um, and you know that desire we’ve always heard from the community of I wish I could have my clone and go to multiple sessions at once. Well, one benefit of the virtual is all the sessions are alive, but they’ll also be recorded and then on demand. So you can attend one of them live, and then you can can attend the other, like 17 concurrent sessions at your leisure.

[01:00:56.11] spk_1:
You’re okay, so your registration includes attendance at all. The all the recordings that you want to consume.

[01:01:00.32] spk_3:
Okay,

[01:01:02.51] spk_1:
cool, cool. Cool. Um, NTC Beer is always a big deal. That’s always an event. It’s one night. It’s usually it’s usually the first night.

[01:03:06.10] spk_3:
Yeah, I think it’s usually, um, NTC. Beer is one of the only NTC events that intend staff have nothing to do with planning. Um, community members do that, and it’s usually, I think, the night before the first day, and we actually had a call with the NTC beer organizers. What’s going on with, You know, what does that look like in this virtual space? And, um, you know what? What is encouraging people to have a drink on camera together? You know, it’s very different to attend NTC beer, whether you choose to drink or not, because everyone’s like in one big room together, and it’s like a fun kind of entry way. But in this virtual space, I don’t know that there’s a way to do it. So instead, we’re thinking about just making very clear community members who have come to the conference before so that they can be there to help welcome folks into some of those more community conversations. And one way we’re doing that each morning, before breakout sessions start, there’s going to be a group of community members that are not intense staff, just like chatting, You know, like when you go to a conference and you get your coffee and you haven’t spoken out loud yet and you’re still waking up. But you get to listen to those other people at your table who are already having a conversation. We’re basically just broadcasting that, so there will be, you know, four or five people talking about what’s ahead on the agenda, what they’re looking forward to, what they great tip they heard yesterday in a session. Whatever. That kind of warms you up for the day. So even just moments like that, where we can make clear there’s community members that you can talk to, There’s folks who have been here before, um, and not try and do a direct 1 to 1 to the in person conference because it just felt like it won’t be as good if we’re trying to just compare it to the to the in person style. Okay,

[01:03:42.70] spk_1:
okay. And you start with a lackluster host. Of course. You know, rather than focusing on the sessions are the keynotes and I asked about the first thing I asked you about is NTC beer. So we should talk about the we should. I guess we should talk about the sessions and the key notes. Um, the sessions are gonna be outstanding. Of course I’m gonna be capturing. I’m hoping to get another 30 or 35 as I do as I have for the past six years or so. Um, interviews, which will be a lot easier to do because we don’t have to bunch them into 2.5 days. So

[01:03:43.10] spk_3:
we’re going to We don’t have to do them while we’re tearing down the exhibit hall.

[01:04:01.19] spk_1:
Exactly. The NTC has come down around my last interview a number of times. The lights dim the barrack, the not the barricade the, uh, the drape drape. Things are coming down. Those polls that the drapes are hanging on are coming down. There’s a forklift backing up in the

[01:04:02.94] spk_3:
background. We could recreate those sounds if you want to have to get,

[01:04:38.99] spk_1:
I have to spend a fortune on sound effects. Um, yes. So it has often come down around my last interview, but, um, so we’re not constrained this time, So there’ll be there’ll be easily 30 or maybe 35 interviews of smart NTC folks. So yes, So there’s 150 sessions. Um, let’s make the point that this is not only for technologists, we say this year after year, but you say it more eloquently than I do. This is not only for technology people who have technology on their business card,

[01:05:52.29] spk_3:
right? I mean, we just we’re hitting the 12 month mark on a pandemic that has forced everyone to work from home. So if if the last 12 months have not made the case to you that everyone in your organization uses technology, then I don’t know what could make that case. You know, the NTC is people of every job type every organization type every budget size, you know, and people of all different backgrounds, people that have a computer science master’s degree and people who have never had the opportunity to have that kind of education in any way. So everyone is welcome. And ultimately, I think the thing that makes it really accessible regardless of what your job type is is for the most part. Sessions aren’t trying to tell you. Here’s how to do X, y and Z with some product or some very specific type of project because they’re saying, How do you think about fundraising in an online environment? How do you think about program delivery? You know, using different tools? What does it look like to use mapping technology? They’re really about decision making and creating a plan to do something well with technology, and they’re not about any tool that you might already have at your organization.

[01:06:20.18] spk_1:
Okay. Right. Thank you. So it doesn’t matter whether you, you know, or don’t know drew people from WordPress from Jumla from C plus plus from HTML from https. And, yes, you don’t have to know that it’s a technology for its a conference for technology users as well as technologists who have master’s degree in computer science. Okay.

[01:08:16.27] spk_3:
And this year, I’m also really excited because in addition to getting to have 100 and 50 sessions like we have in the past, we’re having three key notes instead of just one. So, you know, that is maybe great in this virtual world because I don’t know that we could have gotten these three amazing people to all fly on the same, you know, in the same three day window to a location to do three key notes. But maybe now we’ve set the bar for ourselves, and we have to always have three going forward. But, um, there’s information about all these folks up on the site, but I’m sure when I say their names, you know, folks listening will recognize them. Rouhani, Benjamin, uh, wrote the new Jim Code. If you have read that book. If not, I recommend to read it. Nokia Cyril, founder of the Center for Media Justice, and Nicole Hannah Jones, of course 16 19 project from the New York Times. So just incredible people thinking and talking and working at the intersection of technology and media and data and race and equity and justice. And what what is happening when we’re using technology for good, for better, for way, way worse. You know, how are we building our tools to replicate the things we’ve already harmed each other with? And how do we kind of get out of that and use technology in better in different ways, which I think as a whole, you know, the thousands of NTC attendees we have every year? That’s the conversation they’re showing up for right every day in their work, not just at the NTC. So I’m excited for the opportunity to have kind of three different takes on that conversation from these folks. And I think that again will really kind of set the bar for NTC s in the future. Now we’re going to have to have three people every time.

[01:08:54.27] spk_1:
All right? Well, you can compromise somewhere else. Maybe in the future, we can compromise somewhere else. Um, I will confess. I only know Nicole Hannah Jones. Okay? Right now. But she’s a luminary. Uh, when that 16 19 came out in the New York Times, whatever was the magazine? What? I mean, I subscribe online, so I read it, and she’s she’s a luminary. She’s on, she’s on, lots of she’s done. She’s done lots of lots of media. Um, and I’m sure the others are very, very well known as well in their in their field. I just I just know Nicole Hannah Jones. That’s all three. Terrific. Excellent.

[01:09:45.17] spk_3:
Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I think it will be really awesome. And part of building a virtual conference with the community in mind is we’ve We’ve kind of shrunk the number of hours in the day that we’re saying is officially ntc time. Um, back in the in person conference, it was like registration opens at 7. 30 in the morning. You know, today, 30 we’re doing a reception all the way until 5. 30. Then we’re going to some party. You know, it’s like just so many hours, But now, knowing that we’re across time zones knowing that so many participants are going to have other people in their house off of their video right that they are needing to coordinate with in some way for life. And we kind of shrunk the number of hours in the day. And then we’ve also like, each day the keynote is at a different time, so that if folks really can’t join in the morning their

[01:09:58.09] spk_1:
time,

[01:10:47.46] spk_3:
they on a different day, they could join the keynote live, you know. So first day there’s a morning, middle day, there’s a middle, and last day there’s an end of conference keynote. So folks across times and honestly, we are really hoping that folks, you know, unplugged their headphones and kind of turn the computer to their whole family. And, you know, these are conversations you should totally invite your kids in to listen to or your partner or your parents, you know, whoever you live with, um, both for these awesome keynotes. And like I said, at the end of the day, there’s going to be art sessions live bands like sit down for dinner and just, you know, unplug your headphones and let the band play while you have dinner. We really wanted to feel like the NTC

[01:10:48.39] spk_1:
family. It’s a family affair.

[01:10:50.00] spk_3:
Bring your family.

[01:10:51.35] spk_1:
Bring your family for no extra cost. No extra

[01:10:53.57] spk_3:
cost. Exactly.

[01:11:12.66] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. All right. Cool. Um, it’s exciting. Well, all right, the last thing I gotta ask you about this is how can is there was there anyway, would you were able to conceive of any way to replicate the food experience of an in person NTC. That’s such a great all registrants being shipped a food item to share. How could we or it just It just wasn’t possible.

[01:11:50.86] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s such a good question because we did actually talk about it, and I have no part that’s a challenge or that presented. The biggest challenge for us is the food expectations that we share with our partner. And whatever Ben you were working with is, you know, very high percentage of the food is allergen free is, you know, can match various both, like religious or allergy needs all of these things

[01:11:53.14] spk_1:
and you do gluten free, right? So being

[01:12:55.25] spk_3:
able to find, like a packaged product that was packaged and could be shipped and still not be bad, it was like, what would we send, you know, just like dehydrated lettuce or something like, I don’t know what could match everything and be packaged. So instead, we have put together an attendee kit that if you register by early next week, you’ll receive yours before the conference. After that, you’ll still receive one but shifting this on you, who knows when it will arrive? But it’s got, you know, all all kinds of, like, the fun, great, reusable, environmentally friendly kind of swag that you maybe would have picked up in the exhibit hall. And so instead, we’ll ship it to you so you can still join And, you know, hold hold up your stuff with the logo on video, but no food, because that felt like I felt like a real gamble.

[01:13:05.15] spk_1:
I understand. I understand. All right, well, we’ll have to look, we look forward to 2022 because the food is exemplary. So I had exactly absolutely. All right. All right. Um, I think we just leave folks with the u R. L go to n 10 dot org slash ntc, but you just go to n 10 dot org. It’s right on the homepage to its right up top and

[01:13:30.15] spk_3:
registration. I mean, it’s a virtual event. Registration doesn’t have to close before the event, so come on over. We have decided to keep the member rate low and not raise it for late registration. So, pro tip. Just get your membership, which is on a sliding scale of the amount you can pay. And then you get the low conference rate any day.

[01:14:15.04] spk_1:
Okay, Prototype. Thank you. All right. And 10 dot org slash ntc. I endorsed the conference year after year. This is my sixth or seventh, Um, and you’ll hear lots of smart folks from, uh, from the NTC Speaker roster on on nonprofit radio, but attend the conference. I mean, for no other reason. Well, there’s lots of reasons, but part of it is supporting in 10 support the community. It is. It’s a It’s a diverse, supportive, in itself fun community. And that is a type of community that we should be supporting.

[01:14:22.44] spk_3:
Awesome. Thank you, Tony. You are always an amazing supporter.

[01:15:34.24] spk_1:
Plus, you’ll learn a shitload. There’s that. Thank you. All right. My pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you. Amy. Good to talk to you. You’ll find her at Amy at Amy R s Ward. And, of course, n 10 and 10 dot org. But you want to go to intent dot org slash ntc. Thanks, Amy. Good to talk to you. Thanks, tony. Next week. Relationships with Funders by Shavon Richardson If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, You with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.