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Nonprofit Radio for September 26, 2022: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?

 

Gene Takagi: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?

Gene Takagi

Public trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that, what does it mean for our work, and what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO Law Group, returns with his insights.

 

 

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[00:00:52.08] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of fragility as angry. Um if you nailed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show in nonprofits, do we trust? Public Trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that? And what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi are legal contributor and principal of neo Law group returns with his insights On Tony’s take two. This is not planned, giving

[00:00:57.14] spk_1:
we’re

[00:01:41.13] spk_0:
sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi, you know who he is. Of course he he we owe him the introduction that he that he deserves, but you know who he is, He’s our legal contributor, Managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco he edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should follow and he’s a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and jean is at G tech. Gene

[00:01:58.66] spk_1:
thanks

[00:01:59.11] spk_0:
for being back Welcome.

[00:02:00.73] spk_1:
It’s great to be here.

[00:02:03.15] spk_0:
It’s always a genuine pleasure. Thank you.

[00:02:07.78] spk_1:
We’re

[00:02:20.77] spk_0:
talking about public trust today. Uh not only your concerns, but you’re, you’re seeing evidence of. And I’m certainly reading some things too about eroding public trust in nonprofits. What what are you seeing? What are you thinking about that?

[00:02:27.69] spk_1:
You know, my first thoughts, tony is that trust really is the foundation of, of good relationships, right. No matter whether we’re talking about person to person,

[00:02:39.09] spk_0:
person to

[00:03:18.40] spk_1:
charity, you know, person to other institutions and charities I think are especially reliant on trust because if you’re asking people and groups and organizations to give money to you, um, they’ve got to trust that you’re gonna do use that money for charitable purposes, not for personal gain, not for other things, but for the charitable purposes that they want to support. And when trust erodes in our charities, that’s really a red flag and sort of a harbinger of things, bad things that could follow. So trust is really important, I think, um, to talk about. And the study, the most recent study that came out from independent sector and Edelman Data and intelligence found that there’s low trust amongst all institutions. So maybe not completely surprising, but less than a third say the trust, government, large corporations and the news media

[00:03:35.93] spk_0:
and

[00:04:08.91] spk_1:
charities, relatively speaking are better than that in terms of the trust factor, but it’s been dropping and nonprofits as a, as a sector, The trust and nonprofits now is 56%. The rest either are neutral on it or have a distrust of nonprofits, only 56% and only 36% trust philanthropy or foundations and grantmaking organizations, so that’s really, really low. And women’s trust and non profits dropped even more than than men. Um, and I think another flag to point out is our younger generations, especially gen Z

[00:04:17.56] spk_0:
really

[00:04:18.43] spk_1:
have a distrust of nonprofits. Um, and

[00:04:22.83] spk_0:
with

[00:04:23.75] spk_1:
the wealth transfer that’s expected from baby boom generation to millennials and two gen Z, that’s got to be alarming to nonprofits. And I, I think it’s just worthy to call out right now.

[00:04:35.97] spk_0:
Do you know what that number is among gen z. Trust in nonprofits that in the independent sector include that in in their survey.

[00:04:49.81] spk_1:
Well, the statistic that I, I saw that that called out to me was 57% of gen z. Americans say giving directly to individuals makes a bigger impact than giving to nonprofits. So they would rather give to individuals on go fund me or another crowdfunding site than to give to a nonprofit. They find that more trustworthy.

[00:05:16.77] spk_0:
There’s another dimension to the, to the trust, which is government, trust in nonprofits. And you could read government as congressional or, you know, I. R. S. But you know, they they, the the U. S. Government has bestowed the charitable deduction so that the money is used for, as you said, you know, for charitable purposes as disclosed in your organizing documents. And if if I’m thinking more of Congress, you know, if congress feels that

[00:05:43.59] spk_1:
the

[00:05:43.80] spk_0:
nonprofit community can’t be trusted, you know, we could start to see some erosion of, uh, clawback of some of the, the benefits that nonprofits enjoy. Tax free status, for instance, and the charitable deduction to name a couple of

[00:06:00.50] spk_1:
wildly

[00:06:01.37] spk_0:
wildly valuable ones.

[00:06:22.64] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s such a great point because just a few days ago, there was news about a case in Minnesota where government funding to feed poor Children, um, there was a huge scandal involving tens of millions of dollars. So, um, it really speaks to two if government stops trusting nonprofits or certain government agencies and cuts funding to agencies, how harmful that might be to charities and the beneficiaries they’re trying to serve.

[00:06:35.87] spk_0:
I think that one was even worse. I think it was like $240 million dollars

[00:06:41.59] spk_1:
worth

[00:06:42.04] spk_0:
of pandemic aid money. I saw that in, in Minnesota is supposed to be going to feed Children during the pandemic and, and pocketed. Yeah,

[00:06:52.51] spk_1:
patterns there as well. It’s, it’s,

[00:06:55.94] spk_0:
yeah,

[00:06:58.09] spk_1:
it

[00:06:58.93] spk_0:
is. It’s, it’s, um, and then of course there’s always been Charles grassley. I mean, he’s been, he’s been nipping at, uh, foundations and donor advised funds for for years

[00:08:03.64] spk_1:
now. Yeah. And in fact, the whole charitable sector, I think, um, and a significant portion of our lawmakers, um, take a consumer protection perspective of, we want to protect donors, um, and not strengthening the nonprofit sector perspective they want to create laws that will per, you know, try to prevent, um, uh, fraud or misuse of charitable funds as if this is rampant amongst the nonprofit sector, which my position is, it is not, but there are certain high profile cases that hit the new york times and the Washington post and all the other newspapers. And there’s so much media coverage that focuses on scandals because that’s what’s gonna sell right. The tweet or the short snippet that people’s attention span will, will actually stop on. Um, it’s gonna sell much more if it’s a scandal rather than a long term growth in in impact. Even, you know, the, the great news that child poverty has, has been really declining in in the country, which should be huge news gets short shrift compared to some of the big scandals that we hear about.

[00:09:08.60] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. When I name dropped Charles Grassley, I should have said Senator, senator from Iowa, Republican, senator from Iowa Charles grassley. Um, yeah, right. It’s, it’s the scandals that, that’s, that get clicks that sell papers that get attention. I remember, I’m sure you do several years ago there was a scandal among an, an organization supposedly raising money for Navy Veterans like Navy Navy Veteran Foundation or something like that several years ago, but it was very high profile. Um, what was the other, do you remember, I don’t mean to put you on the spot. It’s okay if you don’t remember because I don’t the, uh, the veterans organization that was accused of squandering, you know, tens of millions of dollars on lavish retreats and high, high executive salaries. But, but, but it it had it had great outcomes. It was, it was funding lots of veterans organizations.

[00:09:25.25] spk_1:
I think the one you’re talking about is the Wounded Warriors.

[00:09:29.11] spk_0:
Thank you. Yes. Project.

[00:09:51.07] spk_1:
And yeah, it’s, um, it’s always difficult. Um, looking at an organization through the eyes of the media, um, about how, you know, how well or unwell they did. I don’t want to create, um, you know, uh, discuss particular scandals too much other than to say that they create problems for the whole sector. So, you know, that’s, it’s just something to be aware of. And they’re not necessarily reflective of the vast majority of nonprofits out there trying to do good work and help people.

[00:10:17.64] spk_0:
The 99.99% you know, our our that’s even higher than the nonprofit radio 95% No, uh, 99.99% of nonprofits are not scandalous. And could they, could many of them be running more efficiently. Yes, but we’re not, we’re not talking about mere efficiency. You know, we’re talking about erosion of trust because of high profile crises or scandals malfeasance.

[00:10:37.97] spk_1:
Yeah, high

[00:10:39.21] spk_0:
profile,

[00:10:39.92] spk_1:
not

[00:11:55.21] spk_0:
representative. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They know the nonprofit community and they know pr and journalism. Both partners are former journalists peter pan a pinto, one of the two worked as senior managing editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. And after that he was at the council on foundations. So he understands the nonprofit space very well, which means he understands your challenges, understands how important pr and being a thought leader is to to your work. And the two of them together know how to build relationships with outlets, not just with journalists, but you know, also podcasters, um, conference organizers. So they understand nonprofits, they understand communications, how to build relationships and that’s what’s gonna get you heard across all media. So let’s turn to turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to in nonprofits. Do we trust?

[00:12:00.88] spk_1:
It takes me to another tangent though, now that you talked about efficiency, tony and that’s kind of, we’ve talked about it before and you’ve talked about it with the writers of uh, article or a letter called the overhead myth. I don’t know if you recall

[00:12:16.06] spk_0:
that many years ago. Yes. The C E O. S of charity Navigator better business. Bureau wise giving alliance and guidestar.

[00:13:08.09] spk_1:
Yeah. And you know, they were saying that we shouldn’t, you know, base ratings on a charity in terms of how worthy they are to receive funds from donors simply based on overhead ratio. You know what their admin and fundraising costs are relative to their programmatic costs and those are really wise wise words, um, that that were stated in that letter. But even today we still see organizations even high profile ones that talk about their low overhead ratio. And it can engender trust um, in their organization at the expense of trust of other organizations that legitimately have higher overhead ratios because the infrastructures and you know, the things that they need to do may be completely different. So it’s not fair to, you know, compare across the board and across the maturity of an organization. So

[00:14:06.82] spk_0:
another very valuable thing to invest in is is research, research, uh, maybe maybe going beyond research, activating a new program that, you know, that may or may not succeed, but you have to invest upfront, you know that it’s annoying the folks who hold different opinions about wise investment in technology, you know, it’s Uber should be losing money for the 1st 12 years, you know, because it’s investing in the future. Um, Tesla, you know, non profit unprofitable for many years, but you know, look where they are now, but, but in the nonprofit sector, you know, we don’t we don’t allow that that research and um, spending on innovation, we consider that overhead like, you know, like, like rent, which rent happens to be important too, but you know, something, something um, rent is not a good example, but sort of, you know, frivolous or you know, self indulgent when it could very well be research and and scaling up for for a for a dynamic

[00:14:29.60] spk_1:
future or even things like a living wage.

[00:15:22.90] spk_0:
Yeah. Good. Exactly. Thank you. Yes. Um, yeah, I I don’t like the, you know, I don’t like the double standard where we we we praise it in in some industries, but we we we criticize it uh, in in non profits. And I’m thinking specifically about investment in the future and whether that’s people or programs or even technology, technology is a is a valuable investment. It saves time. It creates productivity, makes people more comfortable at work. It enables them to work out of an office now and be remote, give them that benefit, which so many people are craving now, you know, but these are these are all wise investments, not not um, detrimental overhead.

[00:16:33.02] spk_1:
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And there’s a way to do it cheap. You could invest in technology on the cheap and that might have long term adverse consequences, including to kind of the sort of the data protection and privacy issues that can result. So if you’re really thinking ahead and investing in, not only just technology, just to be sort of more effective and efficient in the short term, the protective of your beneficiaries and your staff and others your donors in the long term, um, then you need to make more of an investment in that. And that’s another thing where, you know, we lose trust if you if you sort of blow your donor lists that are supposed to be private and you know, other big companies get ahold of it and start to target your donor base for unrelated things or even if they’re related sometimes, but not your organization and it was due to a slip on your part or your technology and information technology protocols. You can run into trouble. So again, investments have a double edged sword there. Great. But they can result in a loss of trust too if you’re not managing it properly and you compromise people’s information.

[00:16:41.40] spk_0:
Um, and also, you know, you mentioned living wage but investing in people so that people stay with your organization.

[00:16:48.75] spk_1:
All

[00:16:49.07] spk_0:
right. And that that starts with a living wage that also impacts to on technology. Uh, you know, time away professional development. You know, these are, these are investments in staff that people see and appreciate and make longevity with your organization more likely than you know, than than to to jump ship every six months.

[00:17:11.75] spk_1:
And that builds trust to write, I’m much more comfortable working with you if you’ve been with the charity for 10 years, Tony than if you were hired three months ago and there’s always a different person I’m talking to as a donor.

[00:17:31.13] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. You have some insights into what we as a community or hopefully even individual nonprofits can can start to think about take to their C. E. O. S. Take to their boards. This is always where you Excel gene.

[00:18:33.73] spk_1:
Well in the first steps are kind of simple. Um you know, it’s be compliant yourself, make sure your own houses in order. Um so we can sort of raise all of the issues with where you can lose trust with organizations. Um but even though 99.9% of the organizations are well intentioned, I can’t say that 99.9% of the organizations are compliant. Um so working to make sure you’re compliant Working to make sure that the tone is set at the top with the strong board of directors that is actually providing direction and oversight and not just simply helping you, you know, with fundraising and otherwise just rubber stamping the decisions of the leaders. I think it really is important that the tone be set at the top of the organization through the board of directors. A

[00:18:34.26] spk_0:
tone say say more about the tone.

[00:19:11.50] spk_1:
So the tone of placing the importance of a trusting relationship with our beneficiaries with our employees with our other stakeholders. I think that’s really important and that should be reflected in policies. So it’s not good enough to say, you know, this is what we believe in. So the, you know, one of the hot topics today is a board sets a diversity equity and inclusion policy. But if that policy just sits on the shelf and that’s the end of the discussion of it. And there are no actual changes or action plans attached to that that’s gonna maybe harm the organization more than help it. So the tone at the top means a board that is doing its role in moving that organization forward and focusing um not only on doing good work and, you know, metrics for for programmatic success, but on building trust within and outside of the organization.

[00:20:07.00] spk_0:
And that that Ceo board chair uh Ceo executive committee, if the board has an executive committee relationship is key to this. I mean, they they all whether it’s two people or the Ceo and a committee, you know, need to be uh you know, committed to the same, not only the same mission, but the same uh strategy for getting there. You know, the same commitment to the things that you’re talking about, this needs to be a a unified

[00:20:08.30] spk_1:
working

[00:20:09.10] spk_0:
group at the top between the Ceo and the board leadership.

[00:21:55.36] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s absolutely critical tony I agree. There is, however, sort of another dimension to this which adds complexity and that’s kind of the feeling amongst particularly younger generations. Again, and why there’s a little bit of distrust is too much power focused on the top of an organization without sort of distributing leadership and and the right to participate in this. You know, the bigger decisions of the organization being dispersed throughout the organization and getting input from beneficiaries about um you know, how the organization should evolve or um move forward in further its purpose if we’re not really thinking about getting other voices in it, and particularly if our boards are not very diverse, um that’s gonna engender more distrust as well um with with an organization and this leadership. So while what’s happening at the top level and the relationship between the Ceo and the chair of the board is critically important, it is really important to also make sure that leadership, authority and power is being dispersed down through the organization and that the board actually can listen to directly um input from some of the staff. Um and we shouldn’t create like a wall between board and staff completely. You know, that there’s a little bit of um new thinking on that because the old old ways is like the board should not micromanage right. We should not interfere with staff decisions, which is partly true, but it doesn’t mean that we create a complete block. So the board members don’t see the staff members and the staff don’t see the board and they just don’t know each other. So, um there is a sort of a balance there that needs to be taken.

[00:22:20.82] spk_0:
Can we, can we say a little more about that in terms of examples of how this could be done? Like you’re you’re talking about staff, but also the beneficiaries of the programmatic work. Uh is this um like, I mean, certainly beneficiaries could be members of the board or or is it more an advisory committee, but then to your point, you know, you don’t want it to just be a committee that the board doesn’t listen to. The ceo doesn’t listen to. You know, how can we uh actually execute on on some of this in terms of staff and beneficiaries?

[00:24:23.71] spk_1:
So there are a lot of different ways that it might be done and there’s no one right way for, you know, for all organizations, but getting other voices involved can be done in, you know, um through committees as you suggested, but they can’t just be advisory. If you’re really gonna disperse power, you have to give them some power even if they’re not made up of only board members and some people call any committee that is not composed of only board members, they call them at advisory committees. And because of the name, they think that they can only give advice to the board, but they don’t have any management authority. But that’s not true. You can give these other committees management authority, the way you can give a Ceo or CFO management authority, the board can delegate authority down to these other committees. These non board committees as well. So that may be one way of getting power dispersed through the organization, that that committee might be made up of some employees, some beneficiaries and maybe there is a pipeline so that some of the other people that you’d like to put onto a board, but you might not know very well, you might not have enough experience in certain things that you’d like to have them develop more knowledge of the organization and the work before they possibly a strong candidate for joining the board, but that could be a vehicle or an on ramp to being a board um board member as well. And again, creating a more diverse and stronger board with diverse perspectives and understandings of what the organization does and who it impacts. So I think there are definitely ways and we’ve seen this in other models as well. Some that have worked with some organizations and same models not working with other organizations. Hill Ocracy is sort of one example of that. What

[00:24:24.13] spk_0:
is that drug in jail? What? Hill Ocracy.

[00:25:53.62] spk_1:
Hill Ocracy is a form of management where there are still remnants of hierarchy, but a lot of decision making is made in kind of circles and circles might be employed, they might be employees and others and circles have certain autonomy over their body of decision making. So you might have a circle based on HR issues. So it’s not just one person with the final say, it’s this circle or a group in the law, we would just call it another committee. But um in hypocrisy there all circles and and this was used by some high profile for profit companies and some nonprofits, some had success with it, Some didn’t. So um there are other models out there as well, not one size will fit all, but again, there’s an administrative cost to trying to implement new models, um, but new models or maybe the way that we want to go and their movement organizations all over the place that are impacting how nonprofits and for profits are to be governed and managed. And we should be listening to some of these forces that are out there because they will gradually shape what we’re doing. You can see this by some younger people not sticking with employment as long as they were the great resignation and stuff. If you feel powerless within an organization or if you don’t feel the organization is representing what you want, your employer to be doing, they may not stay and having a little bit of say in what the organization is doing, even if it’s just the starting points because you can’t jump from point a to, you know, to the ideal point in one step, it’s gonna take a long, a long time to get there. But just to seeing that progress may be assigned to somebody to to say, I’m gonna stick around here and and find out

[00:26:35.35] spk_0:
alright creating vehicles for right people’s voices to be heard. Um, and you’re right, it’s, it’s incremental, but just the, just the showing of some progress, some initiative to uh, opening up the leadership, opening

[00:26:38.15] spk_1:
up

[00:26:41.97] spk_0:
strategic decision making, could be, it could be uh, you know, valuable to, to folks right? And encourage them to, to stay versus looking for someplace that’s more inclusive. Yeah.

[00:26:53.98] spk_1:
You know, if your Ceo doesn’t trust the board or if your employees don’t trust the ceo, how are you going to expect donors and your beneficiaries to trust the organization? So it really trust has to be built throughout the organization.

[00:28:41.45] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Are you seeing technology as the investment that it is not as an expense, but an investment in your sustainability, your staff productivity, your staff happiness, um, satisfaction, an investment in your donor relations through your crm database. Uh, it’s an investment in your organization’s work and its future. That’s what technology that’s where your technology ought to be thought of. And fourth dimension four D. For short can help you make those investments wisely so that you’re not squandering on something you don’t really need. Like maybe your backup is sufficient, but you need the multi factor authentication installed, etcetera. So you know, they can help you think through smart technology investments. That’s it four D. And you know where the listener landing pages to check them out. It’s at tony dot M A slash four D. Which by the way is just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to in non profits. Do we trust? What else do you see Gene as as things we can we can think about besides this sort of distributed, I’m calling it distributed leadership or maybe you call it distributed leadership. Yeah.

[00:29:32.73] spk_1:
So other things. Maybe some simple tips guard private data. We talked a little bit about it before with technology. If you’ve got data that you’re promising that will be kept confidential. Make sure you’re guarding that. Be careful about automating and depersonalizing interactions with technology as well. Like we could have a sort of a voicemail for everybody and you know, hit one if you want to do this. It too. If you want to do this and completely not let any donor speak to any individual without, you know, spending an hour on the phone that may not be, uh, seen as something that would build trust. So we have to be careful of our uses of technology there as well in our communications. Um, if you’re going to say something, um, don’t talk the talk. If you’re not going to walk the walk, right? So don’t make promises that you’re not going to keep

[00:29:41.70] spk_0:
that for an example of that is A D. I. Policy,

[00:29:45.44] spk_1:
right? Exactly

[00:29:46.80] spk_0:
written and never, never executed or remains written once and never evolves.

[00:31:13.44] spk_1:
And if you have a campaign to engage in a particular, uh, you know, program and you don’t raise enough money. And so that program never runs, you better be explaining this to your donors. Um, why that happened. And the possibility that that might happen when you start fundraising for it. So don’t just say, you know, after the fact when they complain that said, well we didn’t raise enough. So we used your money for other things that’s not going to engender trust. Um remember your mission and your beneficiaries don’t exist in a vacuum, right? Um, so it’s not just about your organization. And if you your numbers go up, um whatever metrics that you use financial performance or number of beneficiaries served whatever they are, you shouldn’t look at it as a silo. You should be looking at the entire ecosystem in which you are participating. And that would be, you know, open up things like environmentalism like you might not think environmental, your organization’s not environmental organization, but if climate change continues and creates hardships that, you know, scientists are predicting, predicting you probably will have an impact on your mission and your beneficiaries. And so to sort of think, just, you know, outside of that, that silo you want to be thinking about what your impact of your decisions will be, not only on your organization and beneficiaries, but on your allied organizations, on the broader community and what will that do to trust as well. So,

[00:32:03.91] spk_0:
a lot of these ideas, a lot of what you’re saying could be, you know, germinating in an advisory committee, you know, how could we look differently at at our contribution to climate change and what climate change means to us in the future for our for our for our people and for our work, but also what could we be doing right now, You know, even if we’re not an environmental organization siloed as you’re saying, you know, we still have an environmental impact. So what what contribution to to minimize climate change or reverse climate change can we make as well as planning for the for the future? Uh you know, that that those kinds of conversations can come out of these um advisory committees that is that are comprised of staff and and beneficiaries. I mean, these are the folks that live the mission day to day.

[00:32:36.09] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea to tony Sometimes the board may not have um or feel that they have the bandwidth to sort of discuss these sort of broader issues. Um and they’re a little bit more focused. So having the help um the advisory committee on an issue like like climate change for a non environmental organization or an organization whose mission is not focused on the environment. I think that would be great.

[00:32:45.06] spk_0:
Yeah. And I want to reiterate your point that which I’ve never thought of, advisory committees can be granted policy making authority and and and change within the organization. So whatever that looks like, you know, you can bestow that that authority

[00:33:05.16] spk_1:
Absolutely, and you can give them a budget to even sort of to putting

[00:33:11.20] spk_0:
money behind it. But that that yeah, money talks. That’s a that’s a big step granting them a budget granting them some granting them authority to make change that’s empowering and an advisory committee. All right.

[00:34:01.14] spk_1:
I think, you know, one area of trust that we haven’t spoken yet, but maybe, um why I as a lawyer and talking about these things and you’re not getting it from another consultant, is that the laws can also impact trust and non profits have to decide whether they want to set a position on certain laws. And um, some of the things that I’m thinking about is the deductibility of charitable contributions. So, we’ve had an above the line contribution where non itemizers could deduct as well because of Covid. Um, but that was just temporary. Um, and now there’s sort of a push for, well, we should make a charitable contribution deductible to all taxpayers, and not just about the 10% of taxpayers who itemize, who tend to be, you know, have a little bit more wealth, or some, in some cases a lot more than those who don’t itemize.

[00:34:17.90] spk_0:
Is it that small? The proportion of taxpayers who itemize is around 10%,,

[00:34:22.34] spk_1:
10-13%, is what I’m hearing.

[00:34:24.86] spk_0:
Okay,

[00:35:52.18] spk_1:
So, um, again, you know, part of trust and distrust has to do with concentrations of power and wealth, right? And when the 1% or the .1% control so much policy control the leadership of pivotal organizations in all sectors, and in government, um, there’s going to be a distrusted institutions. Again, that, you know, one third of people distrust big institutions. Um, and, you know, that concentration of wealth and power is, is the reason why. Um so laws that sort of enforce that. So if we just give you no deductible, make make tax benefits to, to richer people who can deduct, who can itemize their deductions and not to others that may feel really unfair to the public. And another reason for distrust. So, will your organization’s, even though tax policy is probably almost no organization’s mission, it has an impact. Um, and so it may be something that organizations want to take a look at. And there are organizations like independent sector of the National Council on nonprofits and others who the Tax Policy center that that can explain this a little bit. But you you may want to take a look and see if you want to put a position on it. And one of the things that I also think, um engender distrust is when the media miss reports, the law in one area where the mis reported it is a lot of media say, charities can’t lobby and that’s just not true. Um, so charities can lobby on things like, you know, the the above the line deduction. Um, and and on other things as well, and there are just certain limits that apply, but they’re often generous, So learn a little bit more and we can build a stronger sector?

[00:36:21.84] spk_0:
Well, you and I have talked about the the lobbying limits on previous shows, is it is it safe to say that the law hasn’t changed over the past? I don’t know, 23 years maybe, since you and I have talked about this.

[00:36:34.17] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:37:06.11] spk_0:
So, so at Tony-Martignetti.com, you can search gene Takagi, you’ll find many episodes that he’s on and one or one or two are about the uh, the lobbying limits, I think, I think the last time may have been 2020 when the pre election. So we may well, with the, with the election in late The election in late 2020, so we may have done something like in mid-2020 or so on the lobbying, uh, exemption or Well, that’s not that’s not that’s not the right phrase. What the limits of lobbying and you make the you just said, you know, they are, they are generous in some cases. It’s not it’s not that it has to be a de minimus proportion of your budget or something.

[00:37:24.83] spk_1:
Yeah, the

[00:37:26.87] spk_0:
yeah,

[00:37:27.68] spk_1:
the losses insubstantial which scares the majority of charities away from doing any of it, but it turns out it can be fairly generous limits to engaging in lobbying.

[00:38:01.79] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and the point that you made before that, I was going to say something about that too. Well, sorry, what did you say? Right before you were talking about the uh, the permissibility of some lobbying activities. You made a point? Yes, thank you. The last thing we want is for Donating to charity to be perceived as, uh, as an elitist activity. That only the only the top now you’re saying whatever 10 or 13% of the population can, can give because they’re the only ones who get the advantage because they’re the only, they’re the ones who itemize their deductions. The last thing we want is for donating to charities to be perceived as an elitist activity.

[00:39:13.92] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. tony and with, you know, with our current tax policy, how it works. Um, then I don’t want to get too complicated with that. We are seeing a shrinking middle class. I don’t think there’s anything denying that people, most people have less discretionary income. So if we look at the fundraising statistics now, the giving statistics, we see that, um, even if giving goes up Giving from kind of the middle class and smaller donors has shrunk, um, and, and quite significantly, and it’s, it’s the people, um, that have put in huge contributions that have made up for that. So the Mackenzie Scott, you know, with, I think $13 billion dollars over the last few years, they’re making up for that. But that can change the way nonprofits run if, if it’s all about, again, elite, wealthy, powerful individuals who make the big contributions that then have the ear of the boards of these organizations that then talk about policy and they create policy or, or advocate for policies that keep that dynamic in existence. So it is problematic.

[00:40:52.59] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony Take two. My latest video on linkedin is this is not planned giving uh it’s short under two minutes. I give you an example of what is not planned giving and remind you what planned giving is, how simple planned giving is when it’s done right, when you start with simple gifts by will. But I’ve got kind of a lighthearted back way of looking at it through what planned giving isn’t in the opening. So latest video on linkedin, you’ll find me on linkedin. My name is tony-martignetti by the way that has escaped you. And uh it’s my latest video there That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for in nonprofits. Do we trust with Gene Takagi? Look at this dark potential that people look at at the United States as alright, the wealthy control government because of dark money and and the Citizens United decision, the Supreme Court uh wealthy control business because only wealthy people start and or run run businesses and grow them and only only white males have the access to capital to start businesses. And then and then the perception that um the wealthy control the nonprofit

[00:41:13.41] spk_1:
sector, you

[00:41:21.27] spk_0:
know, and the wealthy control of media, you know, this is all this is all very uh a very detrimental, very dark cynical way of looking at the at the country, but I’m not I’m not sure that where that’s far away from

[00:42:10.55] spk_1:
it. Yeah, I agree. tony And I think past generations, you know, including ours, you know, we’ve always kind of done better than our parents. Our parents were lucky enough to put us in that position. But the younger generations now economically um and maybe, you know health wise and mental health wise, they may not be doing as well as their parents overall and they’re questioning kind of the system because of that. Um and we maybe didn’t question it because our generation did better than our parents um in those terms. But now there is just legitimate questioning of do we need to change these policies and these dynamics and these power structures and um you know, organizations have a say in this and and use your voice, get get people to vote. Maybe that’ll be my my one of my big messages vote

[00:43:27.00] spk_0:
voting is fundamental to although, you know, in a lot of states that’s being eroded you becoming more difficult, although in a lot of states it’s easier to um you know, another thing that comes to mind when, you know, you’re talking about the generations below the the the boomers not doing as well as the one before them. Um The FDA just yesterday recommended mental health screening at regular uh regular doctor visits, like an annual annual health health checkup for everybody under 65 And and they had been considering this policy that this recommendation is just a recommendation to the medical community from from for years before the pandemic. This is not, this is not pandemic-related recommendation. They had been considering this for years before the pandemic that there’s a lot of stress and anxiety among the population under 65 and 65 is basically the baby boomer cut off within a couple of years.

[00:43:59.55] spk_1:
And then, you know, as you noted, this was even before Covid that they’ve been advocating for this and now with Covid and the mental health issues that are sort of go along with not just the disease, but the isolation that many are experiencing and long Covid, which is sort of an underappreciated under recognized problem and disabilities maybe creating more disability, disabled americans than anything. Um, since you know, the World War two, I think would be the last one. It’s just, it’s mind blowing

[00:44:01.44] spk_0:
and I and I and all this does contribute to a decline in trust in all institutions and nonprofit. The nonprofit community is a major institution in the country. So you know, that’s, that’s how this is all related

[00:44:15.09] spk_1:
to what you

[00:44:21.48] spk_0:
and I are talking about. I want to make that connection explicit that anxiety among the population creates anxiety for nonprofits and, and and distrust and disbelief in nonprofit work. Whether that’s justified or not perception is reality.

[00:44:36.71] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree. tony

[00:44:40.74] spk_0:
All right. I don’t know. So we had, we had said one of the things we’re gonna talk about is what happens, what happens if this continues? I mean, I already painted a pretty dark cynical scenario. Um, is there anything more you want to say around? You know, what, what the implications are if the community doesn’t start to help itself?

[00:46:25.73] spk_1:
Well, maybe on a more micro looking basis, it just means for a charity, they’re gonna experience diminished fundraising. Not everybody gets Mackenzie scott, Jeff Bezos money. Right. Most of them are relying upon a pool of donors, um, many of which are aging, um, and may age out of their donor pool. Um, and shrinking again, middle class, shrinking, discretionary income for many people, meaning West donations. Um, we might see more direct giving to individuals as people are saying, well, I don’t trust charities overall. I’d rather just give to my friends who say, you know, somebody is in need as crowdfunding fight sites just continue to, to grow in importance and also in in power as well. Um, and that’s just gonna be to the detriment of, you know, beneficiaries of our charity. So again, in the micro level, we make less money, people trust us less. Our employee retention is less. Um, our donor pool is shrinking and we can help less people even as the need for our services increases. So that’s kind of the dark side look of it. Um, we can try to be the nonprofit that stands out and you know, is the trustworthy non profit from, from a public perception standpoint. Um, that’s good. But again, don’t see yourself in a silo lift yourself up with all the boats in the water and, and really try to strengthen the nonprofit sector where you can, and, and advocating on some of the laws that make things more fair, I think is a good start there

[00:46:41.97] spk_0:
advocating maybe there’s a way of partnering

[00:46:45.00] spk_1:
with other

[00:46:55.64] spk_0:
organizations, not, not in all in all things. I don’t mean a legal formal partnership, but you know, if, if there’s, if there’s a way of working together for an event or, or some kind of advocacy,

[00:47:03.61] spk_1:
you

[00:47:11.44] spk_0:
know, we’ve had shows on the values of that and how to do that. Um, so that everybody, you know it, so that it’s, it’s not seen as a, as a zero sum within your, within your community that if if if someone else, some other organizations benefiting, then you’re losing. You know, that’s not the way to look at,

[00:47:25.67] spk_1:
at,

[00:47:26.47] spk_0:
at the world and and that not nonprofit support. We we all could be or a couple of couple of organizations together could be rising together.

[00:47:37.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ll add that the independent sector survey, the Edelman Data Intelligence survey that we mentioned at the start of the show also has some tips on building up trust within the sector. So it’s not all of dark outlook. It’s just encouraging people that the importance of this is very, very high. Um, so let’s go out and actually make things happen? So that, that dark outlook doesn’t happen

[00:48:05.70] spk_0:
within independent sector. Gene, what’s the, what’s the name of the you’re saying? Edelman data?

[00:48:11.03] spk_1:
Yeah, I think they contracted out with Edelman E D E L M A. And Data and intelligence and their third annual reports. This is an annual report is available on the independent sector website.

[00:48:26.66] spk_0:
Okay, thank you. Edelman E D E L M A N,

[00:48:30.68] spk_1:
correct.

[00:48:49.24] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Uh, you mentioned the five oh one C four’s a little bit, but there have been a couple in the news very recently, most recently the uh, Patagonia companies, uh, sort of evolution into a uh, a new nonprofit, a new a new five oh one C four. non profit the hold fast collective.

[00:51:57.05] spk_1:
Yeah. So the founder of Patagonia and his family member, they were the principal owners of Patagonia and they decided to give up ownership of the company, but you know, they gave it not to a charity, but to a 501 C four organization. Um, it’s called the social welfare organization and for listeners who aren’t maybe familiar with it, you probably are familiar with many five oh one C four organizations themselves, like the N. R. A. Planned parenthood, the A. C. L. U. Sierra Club. So these are advocacy organizations that have kind of charitable like purposes. Um, but our can engage in unlimited lobbying and can engage in election nearing or political campaign intervention? Supporting political candidates and political parties, as long as that’s not their primary activity or purpose. So this is sort of the source or one of the big sources of where dark money comes in tony that you mentioned with the Citizens United Decision before donor that wants to support a candidate but stay hidden from public view about their support of the Can rather than giving directly to the candidate, could give to a 501 C four organization and the C Four organization can get their money’s into the candidate. And the donor that is disclosed is the C Four organization, not the donor to the C Four organization. So that’s how you can create dark money. And with the Patagonia case, it’s very clear who the donor was. So we don’t expect that to be the dark money that we’re as leery of, but it’s still, you know, a huge gift which, you know, for somebody who believes in in in the environmental movement I think is a great gift. But news media miss reporting it or some news media are mis reporting it as kind of something that doesn’t get a tax benefit because a donor doesn’t get an income tax deduction for giving to a five oh one C Four organization the way they do if they give to a charity. Um but there are other tax exemptions that apply like a gift tax exemption or in a state tax exemption. So this gift is overall saving. Um uh mr Schwinn nerd um the owner and his family probably somewhere in the realm of $800 million in taxes. Um So it is not completely a no tax benefit transaction. Again this is not to disparage them for taking advantage of a system that allows for these gifts Um to go with with some tax benefits, but it’s not just the income tax deduction that matters in in donations there for for very wealthy people like billionaires. Um the gift and estate tax exemptions which can be 40%, right? So it can be very very high higher than income tax they matter. Um and so that’s something to be aware of that. Um this is a very wealthy person who gave up much of the ownership share, I guess all of his ownership shares to this 501 C4 organization, except really importantly 2% of the gift. Overall gift was given to a trust that’s not a nonprofit.

[00:52:14.55] spk_0:
Yeah those voting, those are the 2% of the voting that are the voting shares,

[00:52:58.58] spk_1:
right? So because they’re in control of that trust with with some close advisers um they have not given control out of Patagonia, right? They still can control Patagonia. Um And again they’re taking advantage of existing law what what it allows but it allows billionaires to not give up control of their company, get an $800 million tax benefit for giving or you know $3 billion Uh to a 501 C4 organization that could spend nearly half of it on endorsing political candidates. Um So it’s kind of an interesting tax system that that allows for that.

[00:53:18.19] spk_0:
And if if you consider that, you know supportive of uh of a liberal progressive cause because the whole fast collective the the new C4 is is devoted to uh the ill effects of climate change, you know, reversing climate change, impacting climate change. Uh So if you consider that of a left cause, then there’s an example on the right side with uh mr barr seed and the marble Freedom Trust. Another five oh one C four.

[00:53:44.39] spk_1:
Yeah. And that sea forces led by Leonard Leo who maybe the person most responsible for the changing of our Supreme Court and therefore the decisions on things like abortion might be largely attributed to mr Leo,

[00:53:56.21] spk_0:
fundraiser and activist and very well connected guy in conservative circles.

[00:56:20.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And used to be Executive vice president of the Federalist Society whose mission was to change the composition of the Supreme Court. So um I I don’t think that’s controversial and that’s just what their goal was. And they were very effective at achieving that goal. But this $1.6 billion kind of same thing. There there are some tax benefits that go along with it. There’s no income tax deduction. Um and mr uh c passed away. I think this was given after his death. But another big contribution to an organization led by somebody who has immense influence and now a huge war chest that can be used for political activities. Again, the primary activity cannot be political campaign intervention. Um, but some people believe, or many people believe that means 49% of the funds can be used for political campaign intervention. And that’s kind of the source of dark money. Although again in this case we do know where the donor came from. Um, so it’s not dark in that way in terms of hidden donors, but it’s still donations that didn’t go directly to the political candidate. It went through five oh one C four first, get the tax benefits for that, which his heirs, I guess would appreciate. Um, uh, and the impact of that again, is that? Well, in both cases, very wealthy people are able to keep control with people who they trust or their family members of their money to be used for political purposes. They can’t use it for themselves to, you know, to buy huge houses and boats, but they can use it for things that were very important to them. But that means for people like us and most of your listeners, tony is like, what influence do we have compared to that individual who gave billions of dollars to influence political elections. Um, and you know, what, you know, can we change our Supreme Court sort of composition the way that they’re able to do, probably not by ourselves. So it again is, is the reason why people go, hey, these are nonprofits that they’re using to do this. I don’t trust non profits, this is what they’re used for. And charities kind of get lumped in because the ordinary, you know, people, the lay person doesn’t know the difference between a five oh one C three and five A one C four organization.

[00:56:36.19] spk_0:
Yeah, and that’s right. And it’s it’s if it’s mentioned in a in in press coverage, you know, it’s mentioned in passing that it it’s it’s an organization that’s distinguished from from uh charities. But you know, it’s like, it’s like a sentence or two. You know, it’s it’s never it’s never a focal point. So your point is correct that people just lump them all together

[00:57:00.57] spk_1:
and flows through nonprofits and that’s why we shouldn’t trust nonprofit.

[00:57:04.97] spk_0:
So the wealthy control government and they control politics and they control business and media and and nonprofits.

[00:57:18.46] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s that’s what we, We’re finding more and more is the case, but we’re trying to change policies and change minds about this so that we can see that the impact of the 99.9% out there is actually even bigger than the impact that we mentioned about a few individuals. Um, it just has to be organized. Um, and non profits are way to do that.

[00:58:21.68] spk_0:
Well, that’s a, that’s a pretty good way to close. Probably we should have closed with what our community can do. But you know, you’re suffering the lackluster host. So uh you can rewind to that section and then uh fast forward and you can end with that if you want to. Um, but but jean, you know, always thank you, you know, sort of reality, but also wisdom and inspiration. And and not only um ethereal pedagogical inspiration, but you know, ideas that we can we can we can act on. So thank you. Thank you.

[00:58:24.63] spk_1:
Thank you Tony. And your closing statement is actually always the greatest ending. So, I’m looking forward to hearing it.

[00:59:39.16] spk_0:
Okay, All right, thank you jean. Next week. Let’s see what develops and why do I even say uh, next week if I don’t know what’s coming up next week, but we’re here we are. We’re talking about trust and part of that is transparency. So I’m being transparent that I don’t know what next week’s show is gonna be, I know what the 1 to 2 weeks from now is gonna be. We’re gonna have beth cancer and Allison fine talking about their new book, but I can’t promise that for next week because well, that would be a lie and that’s going to reach the trust because they’re not on next week. Next week. Uh, it’s up in the air, but trust me, it’ll be just that’s conclusory. Just trust me now, I hope you trust non profit radio I’ll find something good if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com responses by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four

[00:59:48.37] spk_1:
D. Just

[01:00:03.54] spk_0:
Like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Here it is, Jean, go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for August 1, 2022: Tech Policies That Reduce Toxic Productivity

 

Marina Martinez-Bateman: Tech Policies That Reduce Toxic Productivity

First, what is toxic productivity? Then, as your teams use technology more often for work, how might your practices be hurting the people who work with you? Finally, what are the better practices and policies? It’s all covered by Marina Martinez-Bateman, from New Coyote Consulting. (This is part of our continuing #22NTC coverage.)

 

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[00:02:04.85] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with sudo a graphia if you wrote to me saying that you missed this week’s show tech policies that reduce toxic productivity first, what is toxic productivity then as your teams use technology more often for work, how might your practices be hurting the people you work with? Finally what are the better practices and policies? It’s all covered by Marina Martinez Bateman at new coyote consulting this is part of our continuing 22 NTC coverage On Tony’s take two. Please start your plan giving with will’s part do we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I Tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for d just like three D but they go one dimension deeper. Here is tech policies that reduce toxic productivity. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N. T C. The 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by the very smart folks at N 10 will help us all use technology in our work with me now is marina Martinez Bateman. They are ceo of new coyote consulting marina. Welcome.

[00:02:10.16] spk_1:
Hi thanks for having me it’s a joy to be on the show.

[00:02:31.96] spk_0:
Oh joy thank you very much and we’re just getting started joyful already I love it. Thank you your session topic is tech policies for reducing toxic productivity. Natural question is how could productivity possibly be toxic? What what is this thing?

[00:04:06.63] spk_1:
Well, it’s like anything else, right? You know, you buy a couple of pairs of nice shoes that you like. It’s not toxic, there’s nothing wrong here. It’s just engaging in some, you know, some trade some some joy of craftsmanship. If you start buying shoes instead of food, buying shoes instead of paying the rent, then you have a real problem, right? And productivity is like that, you know, it’s just like any other thing that we engage in, we can do it so hard that it hurts us. Um toxic productivity is when we will choose work over things that we need like taking lunch breaks or moving our body or engaging with family and community things that sort of are essential to our mental and physical health. And then you know what happens is as we engage more and more with this toxic level of productivity are actual real true product. Our output diminishes and then we see our output diminish, we get really upset about that and then we double down on being more and more productive and and then our output diminishes because we’re exhausted and we’re not getting filled up in other places and we double down again and it can lead to, you know, you can create uh you know really unhealthy spaces, you can um you know make yourself ill, you can hurt yourself. You can get hurt. You know how many people have fallen asleep while driving um because they’re working too many hours. Um you know, how many times do we make really silly mistakes when we’re exhausted? Um Those things sort of creep in and creep in and then your identity starts to change into being someone who can’t get things right, who isn’t able to perform when that was never a part of your reality. You’re just engaging way too hard in work. Thinking that that’s the answer to your problem when really it’s the cause.

[00:04:55.89] spk_0:
And before we go further and toxic productivity, let’s remind folks in case there’s any question. Uh, you said, you know, and it replaces being filled up by other spaces like community, family friends. Let’s remind folks of the joys that and and maybe there’s even research that shows the physiological changes when we’re engaging in things that are not work.

[00:06:45.10] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. So you get different parts of your brain activated when you’re engaging in hobbies that are different from your work, um, your creative life. You know, if you have a creative job, um sometimes doing something that’s not so creative or doesn’t require a lot of like big innovative leaps. Um can be nice, like, you know, tidying up or taking a walk or um doing something physical, like hiking or going out into the outdoors, going fishing and camping etcetera. Or even going shopping or going to the movies, like those things when they’re safe. Of course, because it’s still covid right now um are important to engage in because they activate other spots of your brain and also just your body moves differently on a hike than it does in the office or at a desk. Yeah, first of all it moves your standing desk, even if you attach a treadmill to it or something can never really replicate going outside. Um and then, you know, were people even introverted people need other people. We just do, we’re not um we cannot exist completely alone. Um we have to be able to engage in the people that we have in our personal bubble, However big that bubble is we have to be able to sort of like activate um that empathetic drive that we all have as humans or that, you know, the vast majority of us do. Um and we we just have to be in in concert, you know, how many of us have been at work, especially in the nonprofit sphere and things are sort of looking gloomy and we’re thinking, oh, the world is filled with bad people, everyone’s making terrible choices. This is the worst. You know, And then you go to dinner with a friend and you’re like, wait, the world is wonderful, this is great, everyone’s making great choices. I bet all these people are just trying to figure it out because that human connection needs to exist for us to be people in the world, which is you know why we’re here is to be people.

[00:07:04.40] spk_0:
Thank you for that reminder. We are we are communal, we are social,

[00:07:08.46] spk_1:
even

[00:07:33.77] spk_0:
the most introverted to some degree still as you said, you know with however however however many or few it may be uh contact community. Alright. Alright. So what are nonprofits doing that uh is leading us to toxic productivity and we’ll certainly get to the solutions. But what are we doing to? I don’t wanna I don’t wanna say improve it to induce it, induce

[00:11:52.01] spk_1:
it. Yeah. I mean part of it is that we have these and these are, it’s great that we all want to end hunger and that we you know, no one’s being like though But it’s hard when you have 16 people and they’re all making 20-50 to 100% less than they could make in the free market trying to end hunger from a small office with broken chairs and a raccoon that won’t leave the trash alone. You know like we are so severely under resourced in non profit and that’s not our individual fault by any means. It’s the culture and the structures of the culture that we live in um where poor people are the people that build this country and their labor is so exploited that they are um kept poor so that the rich can stay rich. Um and then we get the nonprofits and generally those are the people we serve are the poor or people who are missing something from their, their experience or their needs. And uh, and we’re under resource too. I mean it’s a whole, it’s a whole culture, right? It’s a whole structure, It’s a whole system that’s made to make it so that we have these incredibly vast missions and we have a broken pencil and our own gumption to make it happen. And um, and it is, you know, we as individuals cannot solve that entire problem by ourselves. One, we can’t solve the problem that we’re working on by ourselves. We can end hunger alone. Um, even the most vast and well resourced organization would have to work with others in order to make that happen. Um, and part of that. So we have this like we have these vast resources. We are severely under resourced. We have these vast missions. Yeah, and were severely under resourced. And then, um, what we as organizations do on the, on the organization to organization level is that we compete with one another. We don’t coordinate with our organizations in our same sphere or it’s hard we find it hard to coordinate. Um, we also don’t recognize that we’re under resourced. Um, frequently we will sort of like, you know, when you get a bunch of nonprofit workers together in a room, we’ll joke about, you know, how we don’t have a chair that works in our computer is 15 years old and all these things. Um, but we don’t talk about how that makes the mission harder to do. And nor do we talk about how we’re still hitting goalposts were still crossing finish lines were still making things work. And where did those resources come from in general? They come from the individual workers. Um, and some of us have vast resources to put to this and some of us don’t. Um, but there’s no adjustment, a there’s no adjustment of expectation based on how much resource we’re individually putting into the work to make it across the finish line. And there’s also no um, it’s seen as an individual failing if we can’t do this impossible work with very little resource in the, in in in terms of money, in terms of time, in terms of support, in terms of whatever we’re all fighting an uphill battle. And um, and our organizations frequently lean into that martyrdom and lean into that, you know, while I was working 17 hours yesterday, while I was up at two o’clock in morning, finished with this grant, Well, I was, you know, and um, and it doesn’t have to be like that. I mean if we live in a world where we think that our clients deserve education, food, um, healthy ecology to, to roman community art, all of these things, you know, medicine and um, recovery and all these things that we provide to people if we think that our clients deserve that. How come we’re not getting that for ourselves. Like how many of us are pushing off things like doctor’s appointments? How many of us us have skipped um, significant times in our family members lives because there was some campaign or something that had to go on. And then also how much of that um, happens because of expectation, you know, when we start a nonprofit, we’re working with nothing. We work our way up, we become leaders in the, in the sector. And then it doesn’t seem weird to us that the people of the workers that are coming behind us are experiencing the same hardships that we experienced because it’s normal for us to struggle in this way.

[00:13:14.45] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications media relationships, you know, how important relationships are in fundraising. They’re just as important in media exposure. Both of the turn two partners are former journalists, including one peter Pan a pinto who was an editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. So they both know what to do and what not to do to build your relationships with journalists. Those relationships are going to get you heard in the media, turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o now back to tech policies that reduce toxic productivity. A lot of what you’re saying is that it’s it’s culture and and mindset. So I guess you’d like to change the culture and change the mindset and change the investments. Um, so please, let’s, uh, let’s start talking about what we can do differently.

[00:14:17.04] spk_1:
I think what we can do differently is it starts with the leadership and nonprofits. People who are lower on the work chart do not have as much power, although a lot of people, especially right now with the great resignation, um, a lot of people who are lower on the r chart are sort asserting their power by leaving, um, environments that are toxic or don’t work for, um, what their vision is for the future. I think gen z is a great motivator for us to all take a look at how we’ve been working in the past and how it has harmed us and how if we don’t get right and start cycle breaking, we are going to be perpetuating the same harm that was done to us, which while it’s not fair that we were harmed, it’s also not fair to, to sort of sloth that off onto others. Um, but in leadership in the non profits, we have to stop thinking that because it happened to us. It’s okay for it to happen to other workers, especially younger workers.

[00:14:18.77] spk_0:
Like it’s some sort of, you know, rite of passage, you pay your dues and then you’ll then you’ll emerge a better leader in the, in the sector, you know? That’s, that’s silly. Yeah.

[00:14:31.40] spk_1:
Yeah. And

[00:14:32.07] spk_0:
punishing to be, you don’t have to be punished to be successful.

[00:14:41.74] spk_1:
Exactly. Can we be like, can we be the non profit executives and ceos that we needed when we were younger and that we didn’t get, can we do the things that that would have helped us to heal or would have helped us to be safe or be properly resourced or succeed even if that’s not something that we experienced when we were younger in career.

[00:15:03.98] spk_0:
Alright. Um do you have specific uh specific things that leaders can, can encourage? Like you must take time off. So, you know, I don’t wanna see anybody not using their vacation time. And you know, these folks who say, hey, I haven’t had a vacation in four years. I’m so proud of myself thinking like, don’t blame me, that’s your own

[00:15:23.35] spk_1:
fault.

[00:15:24.55] spk_0:
Yeah. It’s been that long. It’s your own fault for not taking, you know? So what, what, what can leaders do, you know, specifically to avoid this? The toxic productivity

[00:18:02.90] spk_1:
is, Yeah. That that sort of thing where it’s like, well, it’s not my fault that Sharon hasn’t taken a vacation in seven years saying that is a thing we can put to bed and we can say actually, if I’m in charge of this organization and of course we work together with our boards and advisory council sometimes with governmental agencies, whoever we’re helping to steward this change with. Um but if I am the Ceo here, I am the executive here then if someone hasn’t taken a vacation in four years, that’s, that’s on me. Um, This is the, this is the container I’m building for workers. Um, I see my view my duties as the Ceo very explicitly to keep the people in my, you know, in my organization safe. That’s one of the things that, that I have, you know, task been tasked with is to keep people safe. Um, if I can tell people what kind of work we’re doing and where we’re going and what our goals are, then I have to take responsibility for their safety during that journey because I’m the one taking them at that place. I’m the one on that journey with them. Um, and so asking, you know, why is it, why is it that Sharon feels like she can’t take a vacation. Um, Is there something going on internally that is making that happen? Does she not have anyone who’s trained on the thing that she does? Does she, um, has she not gotten a performance review in four years and she’s so she doesn’t feel like she can take a vacation because she doesn’t even know how well she’s doing her job. You know, there’s just a bunch of little things that we can look at and it takes time, which most of us don’t have. And I advise leaders to look at our plate and find out where we’re being performative lee productive, How many of the things do we do every day That looks like we’re doing something but at the end of the day it doesn’t actually, it doesn’t actually contribute to the mission. We can spend three hours on something and um and not only are no more Children fed, they’re not going to be on that labor that we just did, but it looks really good. It looks like we’re doing a lot. How can we cut that out and then focus on, let’s get somebody cross trained on Sharon’s job so that she can finally take a vacation. Let’s let’s make this a safe space for our workers to make healthy decisions. And the truth is that because a lot of our sector has for so long leaned into this under resourcing of workers, there becomes a pathology around being under resourced. There becomes a sort of like um system wide martyrdom.

[00:19:20.63] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. They have an offer for you. An exclusive offer for nonprofit radio listeners, complimentary 24 7 monitoring of your I. T. Assets for three months. They’ll monitor your servers, network and cloud performance, they’ll monitor your backup performance all 24/7. Any issues they will let you know ASAP Plus at the end you will get a comprehensive report. After the three months They’ll throw in a few surprises a couple of things as well that I did not mention. It’s all complimentary and it’s for the 1st 10 listeners. The offer is on the listener landing page, go grab it, tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. And this offer goes even deeper than that. Let’s return to tech policies that reduce toxic productivity. There’s something called the brotherhood of suffering.

[00:19:23.27] spk_1:
Exactly.

[00:19:24.01] spk_0:
It’s it’s I’ve read about it in prison populations where I mean the phrase says it, the brotherhood, sisterhood, um the hood of suffering, the uh the shared experience among all folks of being in something that’s ritualistic, punishing suffering difficult. And then and it ends up being a source of almost pride.

[00:19:52.07] spk_1:
Yes,

[00:19:52.65] spk_0:
that we’re suffering this way together, right? I’m sure you want to turn that on its head and and disabuse us of

[00:21:28.90] spk_1:
that. It’s and it’s hard, it’s entrenched. There are people for whom for whatever reason and then this does become an individual problem. Once you’ve done all of the systematic things around alleviating that suffering around creating um you know, the concept of abundance even as we’re in these systems where we’re under resourced and part of that is acknowledging how we’re under resource and and and speaking its name out loud um which is capitalism and racism and colonialism. Um once we sort of do that in our organizations, there are still going to be people for whom it is necessary they need, that they feel for whatever reason that that this is what they have to do, this is how they have to work. Um and and in general what I find um in the times that I’ve managed to create this package, which is really hard to do, Well we have all these other external forces sort of like working for us to have this hero complex to keep in this savior mindset. Um When I’ve been able to make this abundance package the sort of container where we can all work in abundance towards our common goals. There are a couple of people who will leave and sometimes it’s messy. Sometimes it’s not thankfully, but sometimes it is messy. Um But it’s because they need to be in an environment that feels like home to them and that toxicity is going to feel like home until they make the choice to step out of it and and recognize that this is this is a choice that that they’ve made their systemic issues at hand and then there’s individual issues at hand and we as C. E. O. S can do a lot to solve the systemic issues and also we can never make someone heal

[00:21:54.39] spk_0:
themselves. What’s some of that performative work that you uh that you mentioned, just if you could take off two or three things that are performative but lacking in value and and and benefit

[00:22:13.27] spk_1:
um staying in the office on a day when there’s no reason to, you know, if uh something like something tragic frequently happens, if there’s something terribly tragic in our community,

[00:22:19.73] spk_0:
requiring

[00:23:47.90] spk_1:
requiring everyone to keep their butts in their seats is just ridiculous. No one’s working. That’s not gonna happen. Um, even sort of staying in the office when there are things going on that are, are wonderful. Um, for example, uh, if it’s, you know, if we are living in a beach town and it’s a great surf day and we are a surf, you know, protecting the surf non profit everybody goes surf. Like come on, this is our whole thing. Like it doesn’t make any sense. If we are, say we are, you know, very into free media and we have a free media conference in town, nobody should be expected to come to work. We should get tickets to the free media conference and we should go to that. Um, you know, there are a lot of things I think, um, you know, if we’re a big sports town and our team is winning, nobody’s going to pay attention to work. There’s no reason to be here. All of these things. You know, they’re all individual to the nonprofit. Then there’s also things like, you know, some of us and I’m one of these people, I admit it, I love to see a meeting room packed with people. We love it. But half those people do, they need to be there. Do they really do this really important to, to the running of the nonprofit that, that, you know, so many people are there for an hour doing nothing and, or you know, getting information that could have been in an email or you know, etcetera. Um Yeah, I think there’s some people have gone into the, Oh, I can’t remember what they call it, but they do 15 minutes stand ups every morning and they’re never 15 minutes long. They always run over.

[00:23:55.84] spk_0:
Yes.

[00:24:43.06] spk_1:
Yeah. The morning huddle. I mean if the morning huddle makes you guys productive and it helps your nonprofit do the thing you’re, you’re put here to do great. But a lot of times these huddles are just performative and it’s awful and everyone’s so tired because it’s the first thing in the morning and there’s no reason for them. Um I think also there’s a lot of like email checking that happens throughout the day for me as one of the ways that I am performative li productive and and my my only employee is remote. We’re all remote here so no one’s watching me. No one can see me in here. But I will sit here and check email because I want to quote unquote, feel productive. And so then I spent 2.5 hours moving emails around the digital space doing nothing and I leave and then I leave, you know, I have to go to lunch or it’s the end of the day or something. I didn’t need to be there and do that. There was there was no reason.

[00:28:05.26] spk_0:
Alright. Those are good. Yeah, good examples. Thanks. It’s time for Tony’s take two. This is still my silver jubilee in planned giving and august is still national maker Will month. So let’s take part due of starting your planned giving program with wills. These are gonna be reasons 45 and six reasons one through three were last week reason number four. There’s no lifetime cost to your donors. These are long term gifts. A gift in a will is a gift of cash to your nonprofit at the donor’s death. So no lifetime cost for your donors giving by will sustainability. This is all about the sustainability of your work, your mission, your values. That’s what the conversations are all about. It’s the survivability of your work in the long term. That’s what the conversations are about. That’s what plan giving is going to help supplement is gonna really be more than a supplement. It’s going to be critical to your long term survivability, your sustainability reason number six endowment, whether you have no endowment and you need to start growing building one or you have a modest endowment, you want to grow it more or you have a good size endowment and you still want to grow it more because when do we ever say the endowments big enough? No need to add to that anymore. Let’s stop that. Cut that off. That. Never. So wherever you are with endowment, even if you’re at $0.0. Most of the gifts by Will the vast majority come unrestricted and that means you take as much of that unrestricted money as possible and put it into your endowment. That long term savings for your nonprofit, that you’re only spending a little bit of the income or maybe even less than the annual income each year. That’s how you grow that endowment gifts by Will I realize there’s tension there. You have immediate short term costs, expenses that you have to cover as well. But as much as possible, those unrestricted dollars that come from gifts by Will’s sock that away into the Endowment, That’s how you build your endowment. And of course that helps, uh, reason number five, your sustainability. Right? It all works together. So that’s reasons 4, 5 and six for starting your planned giving program with wills. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo Yes, the boo koo is back, boo koo, but loads more time for tech policies that reduce toxic productivity with marina Martinez Bateman. Is there more that, that we can ask of our of our leaders. You not that you haven’t given given, given a lot of, a lot of advice, but uh, is there any more that, that we can expect from our leaders to help us make the right choices.

[00:32:17.95] spk_1:
Yeah. And part of that is so we are in a unique space as leaders where we are suffering from the exact same ailments that our people are suffering from and we are suffering from the exact same structures of oppression that our people are, something, I mean not the exact same ones, but we’re here. We’re in it, right? So all of that. Um, you know, all the systems that are set up to make it so that personal health and art and the environment and food and health like um, communities and all these other things that we fight for right in the nonprofit sector. All these things are devalued, we’re in the same boat. Um, and also we do have power within the walls of our organization. Sometimes it’s limited, Sometimes there’s other factors at play, but we have more power than anyone else in the building almost um, with very few exceptions and so part of it is that we have to make certain sacrifices as leaders, which I think all of us know, but those sacrifices are probably not going to be the ones, the ones I recommend are not gonna be the ones that we expect. So, um, we need to protect our own time. We need to be seen eating lunch. We need to be seen taking time to move our bodies. Um, a lot of the things that we do as leaders are are the second we get to work the second we log on whenever our day starts, we are being seen by everyone of the organization. Even if it’s a small organization, even if it’s a remote organization, we don’t realize how visible we are. Um, and so when we model these behaviors for people taking vacation, telling people about how wonderful and restoring the vacation was, reassuring people um that it’s okay to take vacation for themselves, leaning into abundance even though we know what the budget is and we know scarcity very intimately um making those choices um that are that are on mission, um that are values driven because that’s what we’re called to do. Um and then having to make tough calls as a leader is it’s why we’re here, it’s why we got put in this seat. Um it’s why we sought the seat, we wanted this position most of us and um and so it’s time to sort of like what we sacrifice when we have this out, like when we’re modeling this good behavior is we sacrifice any delusions that we might have had towards the productivity nature of of, you know, performative productivity, right? So those big meetings have a ton of people in them that are really kind of just ego strokes for us, we can get rid of those, that’s a sacrifice that that is a good sacrifice to make. Um a lot of times we do things like we have those big meetings because we’re not feeling very productive, but we want to see everybody’s face, you know working. Um and really what we needed to do was take lunch and start taking lunch probably three months three or four months ago or years ago or 10 or 1520 years ago. Um and then we would feel productive and filled up and we would need a big meeting of 15 people that doesn’t do anything. Um So so modeling the behavior ourselves is very very important and um and specifically in a way that is seen um It can be very hard because as leaders we want to say well I’m gonna take I’m modeling the behavior, I’m gonna take off early, I’m gonna go home and um that is valid and if we need to do that we should do that. And also say okay everybody we’re going home early this day is just whatever happened this day is in the pits, let’s go home early. If we can of course some of us can’t do that because we have certain service obligations. Um But we can do things like look around the room, take the temperature of the room and say all right, everybody we’re getting you know pizzas delivered or whatever. Uh We’re just going to sit down and hang out together and blow off some steam. I can feel it, we just we’re not doing productive work right now. You

[00:32:40.29] spk_0:
know, be thoughtful, be intentional about creating about the culture you’re creating and that culture starts with leadership. Whether whether you might be the Ceo or you might be a mid level leader, you might be uh lower on the work charter. Lower level leader, but you’re still leading two or three people. Right? I mean it applies. This is not only for the ceo your ceo but this is not only for C E O S. Alright.

[00:32:58.79] spk_1:
Yeah. The people like your choices are going to be dependent on what’s up with the people and focused on them and then model the behavior that you because you know that a lot of us don’t realize how seen we are in our organizations were very, very visible if we’re in a leadership position.

[00:33:17.88] spk_0:
Yeah, interesting. You made the point, you know, even even in a virtual organizations like yours? Virtual company. Well so flesh that out. How do you feel like folks know when you start logging in, when you’re reading email etcetera. How is that seen, how is it seen,

[00:34:04.48] spk_1:
how am I checking in? You know, if we have a digital chat platform, how am I checking in? Am I showing up? Am I saying Hey I’m here. Am I asking questions um am I you know, am I asking for feedback? You know, am I am I visible enough for you? Am I you know, am I bugging you too much like um and listening to people interesting people when they tell you what’s going on with them? Um and also trying to remember, it’s very hard, it can be very hard with everything going on that you have to do as a leader. But when someone says, hey I’m gonna be out for the afternoon, put it in your own calendar and make sure that you don’t reach out to them during that time. Yeah.

[00:34:31.80] spk_0:
Right. Those, those uh slacks or texts or emails, whatever it is that start sorry to bother you on your day off. But, but of course the university and the gator cancels everything before it. But I need, you know, blah, blah. That, you know, there’s so much of that could, you could just wait until the day off is over. So the week off, you know, and, and you, you said earlier, you know, cross training so that people feel they can take time and so that the organization doesn’t suffer when they do

[00:35:20.51] spk_1:
exactly if so, and so doesn’t have the thing. I’ve cross trained this other person, which of course, you know, it’s easy for me to sit here in my office and say cross training when a person listening is looking at me like what with what resources with what people, but that’s where the sacrifices come in. You have to say, okay, well, this vanity project of mine doesn’t happen because cross training is happening instead or this. And somebody bristled when I said vanity project, I know it, but we all have them, They exist. We’ve got to accept that that they exist. So instead of the thing I want, we do cross training because that’s, that’s, and eventually I’ll get the thing I want probably, especially if it’s mission aligned. And it makes sense. But we have to prioritize workers needs and comfort because we have a lot of options here. The people that we employ have less options than us have fewer options than us. And so we need to to honor that.

[00:35:33.89] spk_0:
What about some questions that you got questions or comments you got in your session and what, what do you what do you what stuck out for you?

[00:35:56.29] spk_1:
I always get this question in all, every time I teach this training, I get this question. And it’s some version of the, you know, my co worker, my direct report, my boss, my board member is very into toxic productivity. They’re very into this. They’re they’re the ones that are always, you know, I was answering emails from the hospital when I was in labor with my second daughter or, you know, all of this stuff. Um, that’s, that’s very badge of honor. You know, we wear these sort of like wounds like metals and non profit. Um,

[00:36:14.11] spk_0:
that’s the personhood of suffering. The personhood of suffering. It isn’t bad. They do become a badge of honor. I’m always the last person to leave the office. Yes.

[00:39:21.34] spk_1:
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And uh, and and and this person is that they’re they’re toxic productivity is harming people. They’re pushing the culture, you know more and more to work more and more. Um, they have unrealistic expectations of people that work nearer with them, etcetera, etcetera. It’s harmful. And what I always tell people is, you know, you can do this. Uh first of all, your proximity to this person is not a coincidence at some point, you guys probably saw eye to eye on this or were working together in tandem to create something that really worked for you. Um you know, I look back on my nonprofit career and one of the my best times, one of my favorite times in my career was just deeply into toxic productivity. And so was everyone else around me. And it was wonderful because we were all on the same page. We felt like such a good team. We were so unified and the way we thought about things and the way we thought about things was deeply unhealthy. Um, but I tell them, you know, you can tell this person, especially if you really care about them outside of work. Um, you can say, I think we’re in a toxic relationship. I think we are operating in a way that is making each other less healthy. That’s not not helping us thrive. I want to try and heal from this. I think that healing is going to bring about a really incredibly positive change not only for me, but for the work that we’re doing here. Will you, will you heal with me, will you come in this on this journey with me and you can ask them with sincerity and the truth is that you can’t do anything else other than that. Just ask them and if they say no, you can’t keep asking them, you have to you have to respect that and everyone has has their own path, you know and not everyone is going to hell at the rate that you are going to hell at, not everyone is going to hell the way you think you should or they should. Um Some people just have other journeys and so if you are that person’s boss you can make decisions about, okay well we’re going in a different direction, we need competencies around healthy productivity, you don’t have the competencies around healthy productivity that we need, therefore we’re no longer a good fit and that hurts. It’s hard to say those things, but if I had, you know if I said you know we’re gonna go we’re gonna move towards gap accounting, everyone, you know, we’ve got to do things uh best practices ways and and not have you know our accounting all willy nilly and our account at the time was like nope, I do my accounting on post its and I will never not do that. You can’t make me change then we would have to get into accountant, wouldn’t we? So it’s the same thing when we’re trying to create this healthier productivity. If someone doesn’t want to learn or become competent in this in this new work way, we can’t keep them on just because we like them or because of what they did in the past that was helpful. Um, we can honor them and say that, that, you know, thank you very much and we can also release them to continue on their own journey, whatever that is.

[00:39:39.03] spk_0:
What have we not talked about that? Uh, you want to?

[00:39:50.18] spk_1:
Um, good question. Uh, I

[00:39:58.22] spk_0:
mean I do my best to channel our listeners, but you’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I’m just coming to it. So maybe the stuff that we, I haven’t raised,

[00:40:02.09] spk_1:
Yeah, let’s talk about perfectionism

[00:40:04.55] spk_0:
because perfectionism

[00:41:37.88] spk_1:
is a, we know for a fact, we know that perfectionism is a, is a feature of white supremacy. Perfectionism is um pervasive and insidious in our culture as a whole, but also a nonprofit culture. And so when we are practicing healthy productivity, when we’re trying to learn how to do things differently, the fact that we’re doing things in a way that we haven’t done them before means that we’re not gonna be as good, effortlessly good at them. Um, as we were before, even if we were doing something that ultimately harmed ourselves and our organization and our mission, we were really good at it for a long time, we had a high level of proficiency. So when you sort of like decide to go home at five o’clock and walk around the block and then take a bubble bath or whatever. That’s not gonna feel super good because you’re not gonna be super good at it. Um I can’t tell you how many times I used to buy coloring books because I was like, I need to be less, you know, work centric and I need to do creative things. I miss being creative and so I would buy those adult coloring books and I would hurt my fingers from coloring so hard because it had to be perfect. Um and then I would think, okay, no, I can’t do this, it’s too, it’s too physical, this coloring is to physical, I’ll go get in a bath that will relax me and I would sit in this bath just tense because I’m supposed to be relaxing and I’m, and I’m not doing

[00:41:42.14] spk_0:
right,

[00:42:34.73] spk_1:
Exactly right and but it’s not working because you, you’re not familiar with it, it’s hard. The first time you did anything, it was just kind of a little bit difficult and a little bit unwieldy and overwhelming and you know, for those of us who have been neglecting our other, the other parts of our lives for however long because of work, it is daunting to go into a place, we feel very new act, especially when we’ve been in a place where we feel extremely um you know, experienced and Exactly yeah, so the perfectionism of like if you are going to engage with your community and if you are going to engage your creativity and you’re going to go on a hike and you’re going to, you know, reclaim the other part of your life that isn’t work, be willing to do it badly

[00:42:38.22] spk_0:
because

[00:43:06.34] spk_1:
It’s that important, you have to be able to do it badly because you have to get through that sort of like new, unwieldy part. Um and it’s okay to say like I’m really new at this, I’m only going to hike for 15 minutes or I’m only going to sit at the trailhead and look at the hiking place and then I’m gonna go get back in my car and go home there. There’s no level of engaging with your non work life that is not going to be beneficial. There’s no, it’s not like you have to hike to the top of the mountain. I mean, this is part of the toxic productivity that’s been, you know, making this this bad scene this whole time, right, is that we feel like we have to um do everything the best the most, regardless of what else is going on.

[00:43:29.56] spk_0:
You’re not gonna, you’re not gonna start your physical fitness journey with a triathlon. You know, you’re gonna run around the block and in a week you’ll be able to run around the block twice, pardon me, or

[00:43:37.66] spk_1:
maybe just walk to the end of the block

[00:43:51.58] spk_0:
or whatever, however you start, right? But but starting and you’re saying, you know, your embrace the discomfort because it’ll become comfortable and you’ll get better at it. You know, you’re in a pattern now where you’re, you know, you’re like you said highly efficient, highly efficient at toxic behaviors.

[00:44:40.44] spk_1:
You’re really good at this and you can be really good at something else too. I mean I remember there was an interview with terry crews who is an actor and he’s very muscly and um, people always ask him, how do you get so buff? Like you always, and he said, look, the gym is my happy place. And so I can’t tell you a person who doesn’t really like the gym how to get like me. I look like this because I hang out at the gym all the time. It’s my favorite place. But he also says, you know, go take, if you really like something, take it to the gym with you. So if you really like romance novels or mysteries or something, go and go and take your mystery novel to the gym and just sit there, read your mystery novel and then go home and then, you know, you don’t have to pick up a weight. You don’t have to do a single thing. Just hang out there because it’s for a lot of people like the weight room at the gym even, especially it’s like a very new place. It’s pretty foreign. There’s a lot of traditions. There’s rules, You don’t really know what they are. Um, so climb acclimatizing yourself to a new place, you

[00:45:01.71] spk_0:
know?

[00:45:03.53] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:45:06.13] spk_0:
Alright leave us with with something inspirational, please marina,

[00:45:11.70] spk_1:
there’s been

[00:45:12.13] spk_0:
A lot of inspiration summit up some up 40 minutes as best you can.

[00:45:56.91] spk_1:
Well when we think about how much we as non profit workers on an individual level, on an organizational level and on a sector wide level have been able to achieve and and move the needle on with with how little we’re given if we made sure that we ourselves were properly resourced in order to do this transformative work. Imagine how much more could be accomplished by people who are showing up fully in their power to this mission work. I mean it’s incredible. And then also the thing I like to remind everyone in my trainings is that this is generational work. I have generations of people behind me, you know relatives and ancestors who have done their own mission work and I will have generations of people in front of me doing the mission work that they’re called to do and all I have to do is show up for my part my link in that chain

[00:46:15.19] spk_0:
marina, Martinez Bateman ceo. New coyote consulting. I have to ask why is it new coyote consulting. What is that?

[00:47:51.63] spk_1:
Its new coyote because I wanted a name that spoke to my ancestry which is Mesoamerican and uh and which spoke to my sort of like presence and the way I show up and the Aztec there’s an Aztec god way which means very old coyote and um I thought he’s um frequently gendered as a as a male but very also frequently gendered as non binary or female. So I’m non binary. It felt very like I felt a lot of kinship with with that and then um old very old coyote is a storyteller and he teaches through storytelling so that felt very appropriate to me as well. You know, he’s not didactic, he’s not teaching humans lessons or if he is ever teaching humans lessons, it’s in this very jokey sort of way. Um, he brings people along with him on journeys rather than sort of like telling them to go places. Um, and I uh, I also feel like in the context that I’m in, which is a very white context and a very colonizer context frequently a lot of people will call my work new, they’ll say that the things I’m doing are new, these new ideas, their new concepts and for me they’re not new. They’re very, very old. Um, but also new coyote is a transformer. He’s a trickster. So he, he becomes the thing that you need in the moment and I thought, well then we’re a new coyote, we’re not a very old coyote, we’re a brand new one. So that’s why I named us new coyote. Yeah,

[00:48:02.71] spk_0:
again marina Martinez Bateman Ceo at new coyote consulting marina, thank you very much you’re

[00:48:09.07] spk_1:
welcome. Thank you so much for having me on

[00:49:33.75] spk_0:
you’re welcome to and thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of the 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10 next week increase data literacy across your nonprofit you see how all these data and tech topics are fit together. It’s all very highly produced here very highly. If you missed these things just don’t happen if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go on to mention deeper and now they’ve got the offer, grab the listener offer at the landing page. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for May 2, 2022: The Other Tony Martignetti

 

Tony Martignetti: The Other Tony Martignetti

Am I encroaching on him or is he encroaching on me? I think we can find peaceful coexistence. The other Tony Martignetti is the individual and team coach at Inspired Purpose Coaching and author of the book, “Climbing the Right Mountain.”

 

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[00:02:20.14] spk_0:
mm hmm Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. We’re welcoming a new second sponsor fourth dimension technologies. Thank you, thank you very much for joining us for d. So glad to have you and I’m glad you’re with, I’d be thrown into Blefary rhinitis if you swelled me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show. The other tony-martignetti am I encroaching on him or is he encroaching on me? I think we can find peaceful coexistence the other tony-martignetti is the individual and team coach at inspired purpose coaching and author of the book climbing the right mountain. We’re gonna have some fun today on tony state too, managing those who fear fundraising, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O. And by welcoming fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Just like 3D but they go deeper. What a pleasure. What great fun what you know, it’s just amazing to welcome tony-martignetti this tony-martignetti is the trusted advisor coach experience, creator, author, podcast, host and speaker, he’s chief inspiration officer of inspired purpose coaching and author of the book climbing the right mountain Navigating the journey to an inspired life. His company is at inspired purpose coach.com and he’s at Tony-Martignetti one. tony-martignetti welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:31.14] spk_1:
I am so thrilled to be here tony It’s a, it’s truly amazing that we’ve finally made this happen. Um and this conversation is long overdue

[00:03:01.54] spk_0:
indeed, I think I dropped the ball for a while, I had your book and then I didn’t get back to you and tell you that I got the book and I feel bad about that, but we’re here, you’re here. Um I, you know, I, I felt bad when I was introducing you, you you have to be at tony-martignetti one, I feel bad about that. I’m sorry, I’m sorry I grabbed tony-martignetti Where were you? Where were you? Six or eight? Yeah, I don’t know when I started on twitter, where you been? Where were you? Yeah,

[00:03:02.51] spk_1:
just a little bit slow to the uptake and you had to get there first. It’s all good

[00:03:07.14] spk_0:
if it wasn’t for

[00:03:08.16] spk_1:
you. You know, if you weren’t such a good guy, I wouldn’t, I would be more upset, but you know, we can coexist and I’m thrilled to uh, to share the name with you.

[00:04:13.14] spk_0:
We certainly can. Oh you’re sharing your name with me. Oh I see, I see how it is. Okay, okay, now you first came uh into my awareness my, on my radar because folks were confusing us like they would post on linkedin Thanks to at tony-martignetti for having me on, on the podcast. And the first time I ignored it and then it kept happening. So you have a lot of guests who are grateful and then I realized okay there, then I then somebody said the uh you know the fireside, I’m sorry, no, the virtual fireside uh uh podcast and that’s all right. There’s a, there’s another guy out there who, who has stolen my name. So I had to reach out of course, of course. So you’re, you’re in the, you’re in the boston area, you’re in boston proper or they’re just

[00:04:19.42] spk_1:
in the suburbs, so just south of the city. But I spent most of my time in boston and Cambridge area working in a number different companies there

[00:04:29.54] spk_0:
and neither one of us is related to the martignetti liquor empire in the boston area or the Anthony martignetti of Prince Spaghetti fame,

[00:04:38.74] spk_1:
yep, no royalties coming my way.

[00:04:57.64] spk_0:
No, no, I’m chronically unconnected. Um the now that the Prince Spaghetti is dating probably both of us a bit, you have to be, you probably have to be over 45 or 52. Remember Prince Spaghetti commercials? Of course Wednesday was Prince Spaghetti day and Prince Spaghetti, I don’t think they make it anymore, at least I don’t see it. I don’t see it on the shelves.

[00:05:06.84] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:05:22.24] spk_0:
tony brought them down, but Tony was the spokesman, he was the mother would be yelling out her boston window, Anthony Anthony martignetti and he would come running down little tony in fourth or fifth or sixth grade become running down the streets of boston, that was, that’s what I’m referring to or we’re referring to it, We’re talking about Prince Spaghetti.

[00:05:30.44] spk_1:
Yeah. In the classic north end of boston.

[00:05:52.24] spk_0:
Yes, that’s right in the north end of boston and then he would run up the steps to his mom’s apartment and she’d be in her house dress. The pasta pot is boiling and I think he came in with a bouquet of flowers or something to make up for being late for supper or something. I don’t, I think so. It’s good to meet you tony-martignetti

[00:05:55.44] spk_1:
here. It’s

[00:06:02.74] spk_0:
a little surreal. It’s interesting. Um so tell us about your, tell us about your coaching before we were gonna talk to someone about your book, but tell us about inspired purpose coaching please.

[00:06:31.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, so the first of all the coaching I do is something that it’s really my calling. It’s what I was called to do even though it took me a long time to get here. Um the the work I do is work with accomplished leaders and entrepreneurs um in all different types of industries who are feeling like there’s something missing. Um they’re feeling like they’re stuck and they want to find the connection to their inspired purpose, They want to lead with purpose and they want to find fulfillment in life and in work

[00:06:38.74] spk_0:
and these many industries include nonprofits. Do you have, have you coached or are you coaching focusing nonprofits?

[00:07:03.24] spk_1:
Yeah, nonprofits um you know, across many different tech organizations but from nonprofits for sure. I recently just got back from doing a training with a nonprofit organization in Ohio. Um, and it was really powerful to help them. Were there challenges.

[00:07:29.44] spk_0:
Alright, excellent. So, so the, The book, the book has universal appeal, but certainly, you know, the book is kind of, it’s personal and professional. I see it as more personal. Kind of see like 70, 30. I don’t know if that do you think I am? I am I being unfair to your book? Like I see it largely personal, but then it certainly has professional implications and, and ideas to, I don’t know, am I am I mischaracterizing? You can tell me, you can tell me if I’m messed up,

[00:07:33.27] spk_1:
I’ll be honest with you. I

[00:07:35.82] spk_0:
think, I think you’re absolutely

[00:08:21.34] spk_1:
Right. I think it’s more that 7030 because you know, the reality is you can’t separate the person from the leader in the organization. And I think there’s most of it has to do with how you’re showing up to life, not just how you’re showing up to work and definitely you want to make sure that we, you know, had that element of how are you showing up to work because it’s a big part of what we spend our time doing. We want to make sure that people think about what I want to do for the work that I’m doing, How am I leading my people if I’m leading people, um, there’s a lot of elements I tap into their, um, I think one of the big messages that I try to, to come across in the book is that it’s really about defining success on your own terms. Um and that it’s never too late to change the path you’re on.

[00:08:26.04] spk_0:
Yes. Success in your own terms,

[00:08:28.74] spk_1:
not the

[00:08:34.24] spk_0:
culture’s terms, not society’s terms, not your professions terms. Yeah,

[00:09:14.74] spk_1:
Yeah. And when I think it’s a great message, because when you think about, like, even as we think about non profit versus profit for profit organizations, oftentimes people think like, well I don’t want to work for a nonprofit, you know, that means that I’m not gonna make any money um or I’m not going to have an impact. Well, the reality is that it all depends on how you look at your role and it looks at how you craft your position. You know, you can do well and make enough money to live a good life. Um it doesn’t have to be an either or um you can do well and make a good living. Um it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

[00:09:30.54] spk_0:
Yes. Yes. And you make the point, we’ll, we’ll get a chance to flush it out, but you make the point that happiness doesn’t follow from success. Success flows from happiness.

[00:09:45.54] spk_1:
Yeah, Yeah. So choosing that path of like really wanting, you know, what is it that makes you happy to, you know, really understanding, you know, what’s going to bring life to your life um is important. I

[00:09:45.80] spk_0:
had plenty of time to read the book because I sat on it for a long time before before I remember to tell you that I got it. So I had plenty of time to go through it. Um All right, so you use this very interesting um I think clever metaphor of mountain

[00:10:00.99] spk_1:
climbing

[00:10:02.64] spk_0:
and it’s in the title of the book, explain, explain.

[00:10:11.54] spk_1:
Yeah well um I do enjoy climbing mountains in fact um when uh this summer I’m going to be climbing Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania. So

[00:10:17.68] spk_0:
yes you should be preparing for that right now, shouldn’t you?

[00:10:21.08] spk_1:
I am I am I am doing the preparations uh you know getting out hiking a lot and doing a lot of um just aerobic exercise because it just want to get you know used to the oxygen um at those different levels.

[00:10:35.84] spk_0:
How do you how do you train for the oxygen deprivation at however many tens? I don’t know how how is Kilimanjaro

[00:10:41.64] spk_1:
19,000

[00:10:42.72] spk_0:
19,000 ft? How do you train for that part?

[00:11:10.64] spk_1:
Um so you just have to continue to get out and do more hikes. I mean if I could get in, I’m not going to get up to 19,000 ft anywhere here locally. So I’m just doing a lot of different mountain climbs locally and what I’m trying to do is just get used to getting up to to elevation. Um more and more instead of staying at the consistent elevation all the time. So just you know getting used to it. It’s all it takes. You

[00:11:12.06] spk_0:
have to travel to you have to travel to some mountains to prepare for higher elevations.

[00:11:57.54] spk_1:
So the last mountain I traveled to was I went to Peru during the pandemic actually while I was finishing up my book which I’ll get into in a moment. Um I went to Machu Picchu in um in peru and that was the whole area of Cusco is actually at a pretty high altitude. I can’t remember the exact altitude of where you’re at above sea level there but it’s um you constantly have to be ready to have oxygen on your on hand in case you need it. But it’s just really about slowing down and breathing more intentionally. And um that’s part of the process is just getting used to that breathing slowly. Um And slowing down every step you take is intentional. So

[00:12:03.23] spk_0:
my goodness. When are you going to Tanzania

[00:12:06.38] spk_1:
in august so

[00:12:08.34] spk_0:
yeah

[00:12:09.09] spk_1:
it’s right around the corner.

[00:12:10.44] spk_0:
Good wishes. Good. I’m not gonna say good luck. You don’t really need luck but you know good wishes and your training and everything. I hope you stay healthy.

[00:12:16.81] spk_1:
What

[00:12:18.07] spk_0:
a feat.

[00:12:19.04] spk_1:
Yeah it’s gonna be amazing. I’ll keep you posted as to you know how it all turns out but

[00:12:22.66] spk_0:
okay you have you have a guide of course and you go with the team.

[00:12:27.72] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. Don’t

[00:12:29.06] spk_0:
climb alone. You make the point in the book, that’s part of your metaphors. Never you’re never climbing alone.

[00:14:37.84] spk_1:
Yes, that’s exactly it. And I think, you know, so just to come back to this idea of climbing, you know, I’ve always enjoyed climbing and one of the things that’s interesting is that there’s been some climbs that I’ve taken that are not so successful when you just go in without preparation, without having the right people alongside you and without having a map. Um I’ve literally done that when I was a teenager, but then you have these other clients where it’s more successful when you have that preparation, your partner, the right people and you see this this idea of like really knowing what you’re getting yourself into without really having everything all mapped out in terms of like specifics. Um but the preparation is key. So the whole idea about the book is climbing the right mountain is about really being on this journey to, you know, see the mountain as your career and the path you’re on and when you get to the top, are you going to be satisfied with what you’ve created for yourself? And often times, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of different leaders and myself included um gotten to the top of their mountain based on what they thought that they wanted and they realized it wasn’t what they wanted. The view is not what they expected and they’ve had to sacrifice a lot of things to get their, you know, their health, their well being, their time with family, friends. Um, and it’s unfortunate because you know, when you have that, that singular focus of like this is what I need to do to get to the top and then you get there and you feel like let down, um, you want to have a sense of what can I do now? And so, um, the book is really there for us to be able to think a different way. And if you’re still on the path and thinking yourself like, oh gosh, am I on the right path at all? There’s some thoughts around how can you stop, pause and take another look and see what else is possible? Am I really climbing on the right path for me right now? And sometimes it’s not about leaving your, your career. It’s not about, hey, you know, I should be leaving my job and go somewhere else. Sometimes just looking at your job from a different lens, just changing perspective a little bit,

[00:16:25.54] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, they do content creation and content management. Let’s focus on the management part. Your blog. Is it out of date? Have you got a resource page whether it’s your content or the content of others that you’re sharing? And is that thing that resource pages out of date? You’ve got resources from like 2018, even 20, years old, you’ve probably got more current content. Let’s get it up on the resource page, let’s get it up on the blog. Turn to can help you not only with the content creation, creating all these um communications, all these messages, but with the management also and keep that management current. You don’t want to blog, that’s even six months old, right, where the most recent stuff is six months old. No, you don’t want that turn to can help you turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o Now, back to the other tony-martignetti Although for you, it was a major and sudden job career change. You know, what, what did that, what did that before? You know, you can welcome to tell the story of, you know, the incident, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna beg, you know, I’m not gonna spoil it. But what, what was that feeling like for you that you objectively, I guess to outsiders had succeeded, but you still have this feeling of, of, of longing and emptiness.

[00:17:40.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s exactly you know, I love the way you put it there because that’s exactly how it felt. You know, I had, I had had outward success, people saw me as someone who was really doing well, I was working as a finance and strategy professional in the biotech industry. Um I had done a lot of successful things on the outside, but there was a sense of something missing. There was an emptiness inside and I know I’m not alone in this feeling. There’s a lot of people who feel this way in their navigation through their own path. But I got to this place where I was sitting in a boardroom and feeling like I don’t want to do this anymore. I was looking around the room and seeing a lot of people checked out, you know, looking at their cell phones and just listening to these leaders who are toxic in nature, they were more concerned about their own image and how they were showing up. And as I was looking around, I had this feeling and that I didn’t want to do this anymore. I didn’t want to be here anymore and collect a paycheck and just show up um that there’s got to be a different way for leaders to inspire others and to change the way that they’re showing up in the room. And so I decided to to leave the room um to walk out.

[00:17:43.04] spk_0:
And I said to myself, yeah.

[00:18:44.24] spk_1:
And I just I said at that point that I’m going to leave the room to change the room in some way. I don’t know how I just know that it’s not this and that’s what really was the the the point that really flipped for me and created um the path that I’ve been on of the past 4.5 years. Um and you know, when I talk to people about this, sometimes they’re like, well, is that the path that I should be taking? Like, no, it’s it’s not, it was for me because that’s what I had to go through to get to where I wanted to go. But ultimately, if you can to do small experiments along the way or kind of maybe take small bets and not leave, you know, your day job, if you will, then that’s always better. But if this is what it takes for you to actually make that movement, then do that. This is a good it’s a good path. If if it’s the only thing that’s gonna get you in motion, I

[00:18:55.34] spk_0:
like that idea that you have to leave the room to change the room. I’ve never heard that before? Maybe that’s common. Uh but you do, it changes the room and it changes your, that changes the room you’re gonna be in next.

[00:20:25.24] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think it also was a was a big moment of being so fierce, so much, so much fear, so much uncertainty for me. I didn’t know what I was doing at that point because I knew hardly that there was something coming up for me, but I then had to kick off this process of understanding, well, who am I really to be doing this? Like, like the imposter syndrome that I had to go through to really experience this, like building a business around this, am I gonna do this on my own is just gonna be you know, coaching is what I ended up getting into, but I had to like figure out well how is anyone gonna want to buy coaching for me if I don’t have a track record of being a coach, So there’s a lot of that that comes into place um but slowly but surely I built the confidence one conversation at a time and also by getting to know who I was um by exploring myself as I say oftentimes my tagline inspiration through honest conversation and those conversations are not always with other people, they start with yourself, really understanding who am I, what makes me unique, you know, what is it that I am wired to do? Um and that starts by getting really quiet and listening to yourself answer those

[00:20:26.84] spk_0:
questions and what and

[00:20:28.09] spk_1:
to answer those questions, the important ones,

[00:20:31.94] spk_0:
essentially helping yourself before you can help others. Yeah

[00:20:34.78] spk_1:
exactly.

[00:20:44.54] spk_0:
Uh coaching yourself before you can coach others, Finding yeah, finding yourself before you can help others find you know, their their right path. Um yeah, you talk, you talk something about this is related self leadership,

[00:20:50.84] spk_1:
what’s

[00:20:58.74] spk_0:
this, what’s this idea of self leadership? Oh by the way, wait, I wanted to ask you first, did anybody yell at you when you walked out of the boardroom? They yell martignetti martignetti get back here or don’t ever come back or anything dramatic like that or

[00:21:20.44] spk_1:
no, it’s ironic that it didn’t uh it was more like looks around the room a little bit like what is he doing? Uh it’s not like I made it some more massive thing and after when I um when I did leave, I came back and I basically said to them, I said, look, you know, I made the decision that I’m, I’m done and this is what I’m doing. Um and they said, okay, you know, it is what it is. You know, they just kind of accepted it, what else, what else are they gonna do? All right? Um but the, you know, jokingly I would say the person who was yelling at me most of all was probably my, my brothers and sisters and

[00:21:38.71] spk_0:
thinking

[00:21:40.04] spk_1:
like what are you doing?

[00:21:42.00] spk_0:
I think

[00:22:33.84] spk_1:
that brings up a good point, which is to say um the cost of your new life is your old life. You have to um to kind of shed the old beliefs that you have the old thinkings of who people think you are and you move into this new place and what that means. You have to sometimes, you know, realize that you’re the only one who’s going to truly know who you are becoming. There’s gonna be a lot of people who don’t understand what you’re going through. Um and that’s okay, they’ll eventually come along, they’ll figure it out, but you have to be okay with being in that raw state, the we often call liminal space that is between the known and the unknown. Um and you become the person who’s more expert at who you’re becoming because you’re going through it yourself,

[00:22:34.73] spk_0:
its its vulnerability to

[00:22:36.65] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:24:22.64] spk_0:
willing to be vulnerable to family colleagues who you know who you’re departing, you know, whatever. Yeah. You know, you said I have a little bug a boo about it is what it is and I think in this case you’re being modest, but uh because it is what you made it, you know, as I don’t know if it was a conversation with the boss or you know, whatever, but it’s not just, it didn’t just happen, You know like the weather, it is what it is, we can’t control that. But 99% of the time I think people use it is what it is. Either they’re like in your case you’re being modest. I think you you caused that you caused that to happen. You made a conscious choice in the moment and left the room and and followed through on it. So you you you caused the change um and a lot of times I think uh aside from modesty at absolves people of responsibility, you know, it is what it is. Well, no, actually it is what you made it or what we together made it maybe there is a shared responsibility accountability, but I uh I’m I’ve I’ve I’ve said it a million times it is what it is, but just like in the past few months or so. I’ve been drilling down on that because it’s so common and very little is what is what it is. The vast majority of times. It’s what someone has made it, it might be some industry, it might be some political party, there might be some person, it might be some group of persons, it might be you, it might be me, it might be us together. Yeah. You know, it is what it is. Uh absolves accountability. So you’re, you know, you’re a thinker, you’re a thinker. So I want to share my, maybe you’ll think about what I think about. Maybe

[00:25:45.64] spk_1:
not. I love what you said and I think it’s what’s so cool about it is that it’s like, it is what it is, has to be um, you know, proceeded followed by, um by and what now and what now. So if you say that, okay, it is what it is. Well, okay, but there’s gonna be some action that follows it that makes it meaningful, makes it meaningful that you’re going to take some action that’s going to like say, okay, if that’s what the existing paradigm is and you’re willing to shift out of it, that’s what means that you did something about it to actually make a difference. Um, to shift out of what it what it is, what it is, which oftentimes we’re stuck in these environments that have become, you know, self perpetuating if you will. Um, and then what you do is you step out and say, nope, not me, I’m not going to stay in this environment any longer, so I’m gonna do something about it, I’m going to move out of that environment and I’m gonna create something different, but it’s about taking action and that action then has follow on action and before you know what you’re doing something different, even if that action is not perfect, gosh, like that, you know, the first step you take could be the wrong step, but the fact that you’re taking a step is um, it’s a sign that you’re, that you’re ready for something different, you’re ready to make a move into a direction, that is not the one that you’re in right now

[00:25:54.74] spk_0:
and then you are taking responsibility. You know, you’re, you’re, you are sort of flipping that and you’re, you’re saying without saying it, you’re conscious of, you know, it is what I’ve made

[00:26:04.76] spk_1:
it, my

[00:26:13.24] spk_0:
life is what I’ve made in my career, whatever, you know, whatever macro or micro um aspect, you know, you may be focusing on, if you’re within your existence, taking responsibility for it, it is what I have made it

[00:26:21.74] spk_1:
now,

[00:26:46.44] spk_0:
as you’re saying now, I can take an action, take a tiny action, I can take a big action and walk out of the room I can take a small action, start investigating, start talking to other people in other careers. You know? Whatever whatever it is, you’re you’re you’re taking responsibility. So that’s my little that’s my tirade on it is what it is. You know, I want folks to take responsibility or or give responsibility or or or responsibility or blame or credit wherever it’s do whatever it is,

[00:26:52.05] spk_1:
if

[00:26:57.54] spk_0:
it’s yourself, it’s a team, if someone else, you know, very little is it is what it is like I said, the weather.

[00:28:09.24] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, I’m going to take it a step further because, you know, as we often say, the words we use, you know, really, um creates our world and the word that comes to mind for me now, especially when it comes to self leadership, is that it’s taking ownership, um ownership of your path and if you continue to accept it is what it is, then what’s happened is you’re stuck in this, like this path of like, whatever, you know, comes to me, I’m just going to accept it and live within it, live it, live within the existing paradigm. But if I take ownership of my path, take ownership of my life, lead myself. Then what happens is I can own the decisions, good or bad, whatever happens next, I could fail, I could win. Um and either way I can be proud that I took ownership of whatever happens next. And that’s what leadership is about. Self leadership especially is about, is really saying that I choose to take ownership of the path forward as opposed to just accept what is. That’s

[00:28:26.04] spk_0:
one of your, one of your guide posts. You know there you have uh you have eight guide posts in the book and we’re not gonna have time to get to all of them. So you know, folks are just gonna have to buy the book. You got to buy the book. That’s the way that’s the way to get the full content. You know, we can we can we can tease you with with ideas here. But you know, one of your guide posts is connect with the leader within

[00:28:31.44] spk_1:
Yes,

[00:28:37.04] spk_0:
that’s the self leadership that we just talked about. Another one is check your surroundings.

[00:28:40.04] spk_1:
Mm hmm.

[00:28:45.64] spk_0:
Those around you. The influences around you. Talk about that. Check your, Check your surroundings.

[00:30:25.94] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s so important to think about that. Like Oftentimes, you know, you think that um you know, the environment that you’re in is um It is you know that you just show up and the people around you are going to support you or they’re gonna, you know, bring you to where you are. What the surroundings we have. They create this uh container for um Either supporting us or defeating us. And so we need to make sure we’re very careful about is surrounding us with the type of people who are going to help us to thrive. Not just survive. Um you know, i in the book, there’s a there’s a conversation about how, like, you know, in India in Delhi, um there’s this idea that like, you know, there’s a lot of pollution, there’s no doubt about it. There’s a ton of pollution. And the people of Delhi have really come to this place where they’ve just been able to adapt into living in the world of their bodies have adapted to the pollution, but the reason why they’ve done that is because they have no other choice but to adapt because that’s what their environment is. But when you make a conscious choice to say like, well, I don’t want to be in that environment. If I take myself out of the environment, I don’t want to adapt to a toxic environment. I want to adapt to an environment. In fact, maybe even shape the environment so that I’m in a place where I’m surrounded by people who helped me to become something better than who I am. So that’s surrounding is important. If you surround yourself with people who support you, who allow you to be free to speak your mind, then you’re gonna really take yourself to the next level as opposed to holding yourself back.

[00:30:50.04] spk_0:
You spend time with people who bring you up uplift you not, you know, toxic personalities, negative personalities. You know, that that really that really can hurt it impacts, even though you’re, you know, you you you may even recognize it as toxic, but it’s still you know, I don’t know, you know, to me, I would say like it tears you down. It brings you down it, it can hurt you

[00:31:04.04] spk_1:
absolutely. And sometimes you don’t even recognize it. Sometimes we don’t

[00:31:04.78] spk_0:
recognize that we’ve

[00:31:19.44] spk_1:
become so immune to it that like because we’ve built these um these immunities to seeing what it is that we’re living in. It’s like the fish and water, right? We don’t know where in water we’re just in it. Um so it takes someone else to tell you, hey, do you realize what you’re living in right now. Do you realize the environment that you’re in is not supporting who you really want to be and that’s why a coach or mentor somebody who can can look at your situation and help you to see you know how it’s not currently serving you and how it could be different.

[00:31:49.84] spk_0:
I should have asked you to explain the purpose behind the guide posts before I story we started talking about the guard post. You’re stuck with a lackluster host tone, you know, there’s no way there’s no way around it. So you know, I apologize for that.

[00:31:58.77] spk_1:
I mean

[00:32:11.04] spk_0:
you could take over it is tony-martignetti non profit radio you’re you’re you’re you’re you’re not the aptly named host, but you know, you could be you could be you have the potential to be host of All right. So the guide posts, what’s the whole what’s the whole point behind uh the eight guide posts that you spend a lot of time talking about in the book.

[00:33:29.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean the guy poster, there are two really kind of set your path to getting to where you want to go to create a journey to, you know, connect with what you want to accomplish in your life, to be on a journey that will connect you to the type of, you know, fulfillment that you’re looking for. Um I mean, you know what I think is most important is to just the pause, the initial, you know, let’s step back and look at what’s possible. And as you get to those different posts they build on each other. You know, as you said, there’s this, you know, connecting with self leadership and you know, seeing that, you know, whether or not the environment is right for you, but also thinking about legacy, what you think is so important. And when you start to think about like what do I want my legacy to be, who I want to be remembered for? Um and that’s important. I think it’s important to think about those things because sometimes we just get our heads so down and we just focus and we just need to step away from it and say what else is important here, what else do I want for my life and what do I want people to know about me um in the end

[00:33:34.14] spk_0:
and this is all to help folks climbed the right mountain.

[00:33:35.86] spk_1:
Exactly

[00:33:36.41] spk_0:
for them for them.

[00:33:37.73] spk_1:
Yes yes for them so key

[00:37:48.83] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies join me in welcoming four D. Their I. T. Solution is I. T. Infra in a box. It’s budget friendly and holistic. You pick what you need and leave the rest behind. I thi assessment multi factor authentication, other security cost analysis, help desk and more choose what’s right for your I. T. Situation and for your budget. Fourth dimension technologies tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s time for Tony’s take two managing those who fear fundraising. We’re probably talking about board members or potentially other volunteers. You could have other volunteer leaders conceivably helping you with your fundraising. Well I’m not talking about professional fundraisers. You know if you hired a professional fundraiser who fears fundraising you made a big mistake. Cut bait. It’s time to let that person go or find another job for them. The professional fundraiser who hates fundraising, fears fundraising. But uh so that’s that we’re putting that aside. It’s probably not a professional. So the volunteers who fear fundraising. My first advice is help them in there fundraising endeavors in their soliciting, help them with training, certainly staff support role playing assuring them that they don’t have to solicit alone that there will always be either a staff member or another volunteer with them. So they’ll never be alone doing it. Help them see that they wouldn’t be in this, you know, all by themselves. But if they’re still resistant to soliciting, okay, then we’re gonna take them off solicitation and find something else fundraising related for them to do. Like thanking folks board. If its board members were talking about what donor would not love to get a handwritten note or a phone call from a board member, purely a thank you. No more. No, nothing more than that. Just to thank you. Why do you love our work? Those are such easy conversations. So thanking could be hosting, hosting an event, small event, perhaps in their home, maybe some other venue that that maybe their office club, whatever, hosting a small event for you, introducing you to folks, bringing their networks to your organization. So there’s three other ways that those who fear fundraising because they think it’s, it’s soliciting can be brought into the, into the fold more comfortably showing them that there are things that are not soliciting, but that are still valuable around fundraising. And then the third, if they’re not willing to do either one or two, then you gotta move past these folks. They cannot be obstacles to those who don’t fear fundraising, who are embracing it, who recognize how important a role it is for them as as key volunteers. So you gotta get past these folks, they, we can’t have them as obstacles to other people. So those are my uh, my ideas around helping those who fear fundraising, helping you manage those folks That is Tony’s take two, we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the other tony-martignetti with tony-martignetti I love that name. The the other other guide posts I want to talk about be ready to adapt.

[00:38:39.32] spk_1:
Yes, Yeah. I mean I kind of, I think I already kind of talked a little about this, but there’s this idea that like, you know, we have to be able to think differently about how, you know, each thing that comes at us, like every time we are moving to a new job or a new place, we’re constantly being faced by change. So we need to be ready to adapt. Twitter’s on the horizon so that the idea that, you know, we need to have that skill set built into us around, you know, what else is possible for me? What else do I need to build into my path that allows me to be able to adapt to that change. And I talked about that, being able to adapt to a toxic environment or being able to adapt to a positive environment that still applies here when you can adapt in a more positive way to make a big difference as to how you navigate

[00:38:50.52] spk_0:
and how does that impact leadership then if you are, if you are leading others.

[00:39:45.22] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean when you’re leading others and you’re able to show them your modeling the way you’re helping them to see that how they can adapt is is really how you’re showing them, Hey, things didn’t go according to plan. Let’s pivot in a different way, Let’s move a different direction. Let’s, you know, figure out what we need to be able to change. You know, this particular initiative to something else like during the pandemic, there’s been so much adaptation that businesses have had to take and leaders have had to take because well we weren’t already for, you know, leading in a virtual space from the get go. So we had to get ready for a lot different changes. How are we going to communicate how we’re going to connect with each other? How are we going to just get the business to continue to operate? So there’s been a lot of that, you know, how do we become more adaptable as humans?

[00:40:17.11] spk_0:
I think a lot of that goes to vulnerability to, you know, being willing to, you know, as you said, you know, pivot, try something different. Um, you know, whether it’s the pandemic or just, you know, I don’t know, some event or some fundraising campaign keeping for our listeners in the nonprofit space, um being willing to be vulnerable. I think vulnerability is, is so valuable for for a leader.

[00:40:19.91] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it really is, it’s something that nowadays, um we’ve come a long way from from what was um the way leaders were, that’s still

[00:40:42.71] spk_0:
sort of the Jack welch general motors or general Electric, pardon me, G yeah I’m the leader, follow me, you know the omniscient, I’m the present, you know, grab, grab, grab my belt loop and hang on.

[00:41:45.11] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean I think with when it comes to the you know vulnerable and I know it’s a very often nowadays it’s very popular word to be using the vulnerable leader but it’s not just about being vulnerable, it’s about being true to the people around you being you know, transparent and reel. Um when you’re showing up to the people around you and saying like I don’t always know the path forward, I don’t always have to have the answers and I’m okay with being wrong, you know, there’s this element that they will respect you more. It’s actually like a paradox in a sense because we’re so used to having the leaders having all the answers. But when leaders are courageous enough that they can put themselves out there and say I’m going to lead us forward with your help to move us in the right direction, even if I don’t have the answers, that’s scary, it’s scary to think that like you’re gonna just put yourself out there and it’s like the person who goes on stage to present and there’s petrified

[00:41:47.31] spk_0:
of

[00:42:29.00] spk_1:
doing it but they do it anyways because you know what they believe and the fact that they that what they’re doing is important and what they, what, you know what their company’s mission and what they’re wanting to contribute is important. So they do it and they do it with all the fears included, everything included, the impostor syndrome. They do it anyways. Um and when people see that they resonate with that because they say, wow, now that’s a leader, that’s someone who’s despite of all his shortcomings, despite of the things that his or hers um shortcomings or things that are holding them back. He goes forth anyways, That’s pretty

[00:42:34.90] spk_0:
cool. Yeah, yeah. Um get your bearings and you know, you’re talking about the game versus gap thinking,

[00:44:03.39] spk_1:
Yeah, I love this particular one because this is one that I think I tap into a lot for myself myself personally, which is that we we constantly thinking about like, oh, you know, why am I not where I want to be in my life, where why am I not where you know, where I want to be in my professional career. Um and even when we do set a goal, there’s this expectation that we should be like, you know, maniacally focused on getting to that goal. But the reality is that’s all about gap thinking it’s like the gap between where I am to where I want to be, but when we focus on the game thinking you can really look back and say, well where have I come from? You know, what are the gains that I’ve, that I’ve created on this path and how can I really use that as the fuel to move forward. It’s like you appreciate the journey that has gotten you here and then it also gets you thinking all I need to do is continue to take those small steps and look at the small gains that will, that will take to move from here to the next place, to the next place to the next place before you know that gap that you would have been looking at is gone. So at change in perspective, gain versus gap will get you thinking out of that little, you know, the place of, of lack of scarcity and into the place of abundance. Mhm

[00:44:04.19] spk_0:
How far how far I’ve come?

[00:44:06.08] spk_1:
Yeah, how far I’ve come

[00:44:07.78] spk_0:
versus how far I need to go. Yeah.

[00:44:30.39] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean it’s funny when you’re connecting this back to the whole mountain analogy, which is so true. Oftentimes, you know, that’s the, makes all the difference when you look and you’re saying like, oh my gosh, like we’ve got a long ways to go, then that can be really defeating. Um but when you look back and you say, oh my gosh, how far we’ve come, that that’s game and it really makes you feel like appreciative and like almost proud of, you know, wow, all we have to do is just now we’re we’re three quarters away there another quarter to go.

[00:44:43.59] spk_0:
Mhm You mentioned the journey

[00:44:45.59] spk_1:
and

[00:44:46.08] spk_0:
you make the point that happiness is the journey. It’s not a destination.

[00:44:53.09] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:44:54.14] spk_0:
talk about that.

[00:46:10.78] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it’s so important that people are in this place of trying to enjoy even the struggles that they’re on in their path of creating who they want to be, who they’re, who they’re destined to be. You know, there’s this element of like, you know, seeing the growth as just something that is, you know, enjoyable. It’s something that they can be happy about um if you’re constantly feeling like you’re missing something, then your life is going to be full of a lot more struggle. The struggle itself becomes even harder because you’re constantly feeling like your urine lack mode. Um So when you come from a place of, I’m happy now and this is who I am. I’m already the person who I want to be, All they have to do now is continue to, to do the steps to fulfill some of the pieces that will lead me to the next thing that I’m, I’m after. It’s almost like you the, you know, to connect to this might lose some people, but the idea that like everything you ever wanted is already within you, you just have to do the process of physically creating it in the world

[00:46:26.78] spk_0:
Alright let’s make sure we didn’t lose anybody. That sounds like, I think you have a quote in the book, You quote someone to, to that effect, isn’t it that everything you have is already within you for everything you want is already everything you want is already within you. I think that’s one of the quotes you

[00:46:30.81] spk_1:
have to have a lot of quotes

[00:46:43.58] spk_0:
at the start of a chapter. Alright, so so say more about it. What what what what are we, you know, what are we, what are we missing if we’re not realizing happiness in our journey?

[00:46:55.18] spk_1:
Yeah. We may be thinking to ourselves that like I could, I’m not being the person I want to be. So I’m gonna use an example. So the example I often think about is the person since today’s marathon monday um in uh in boston we have um the boston.

[00:47:05.05] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:48:00.37] spk_1:
yeah. Um so which is kind of a momentous considering the fact that the past two years um there hasn’t been one. Um but the the whole idea is that if someone says that I want to be, I want to run a marathon but um I, you know, I don’t, I’ve never run a marathon before. So they had the sense of like, well and how do I do that and how do I become a marathoner? Well, the first thing you can do is start thinking about yourself as being a marathon runner. I am a marathon runner. So internally you start to create your programming to say I am the person that I want to be. And when you do that, you start to think, well what are the things that a person who’s a marathon runner do? How do they act, who do they, who are they being and how can I be that person now? So when you connect with this idea of like, of being that person now, even though you haven’t still haven’t run, I haven’t taken a step yet, since I’ve said that um what you’re starting to think about

[00:48:12.08] spk_0:
it, you should be out there, you’re supposed to be aerobic training, Why are you not in this marathon? Seriously? Come on.

[00:48:29.37] spk_1:
But but the reality is, it’s like, you know, when someone makes it makes a commitment like that or says that they want to do that, the first thing they can do is start to think and act like it’s already who they are.

[00:48:31.77] spk_0:
Mhm.

[00:48:47.37] spk_1:
Like if you say to yourself, I want to be this person who’s contributed this in this way, or a person who is kind and um and thoughtful and such and such, so what would a kind and thoughtful person be doing? What would they do? What would a marathon or I mean, just come back to the other analogy, what would a marathon only be doing while they train every day? They don’t eat snacks, like they don’t eat junk food on a regular basis, you know, they do certain things, they act in a certain way, if that’s who I wanna be, that’s who I am,

[00:49:02.07] spk_0:
then

[00:49:04.07] spk_1:
I got to be that way. Um it’s, it becomes like a programming, it’s a place to come from, not a place to go

[00:49:09.05] spk_0:
to

[00:49:24.67] spk_1:
and that same thing is about, you know, if you’re saying that I want to be happy, then don’t say that I’ll be happy when it’s a place to go to, it’s not a destination, it’s a place to come from, so I’m happy now. All I need to do is to do the things that keep me happy, make me happy,

[00:49:36.47] spk_0:
awesome. Alright. Mhm. What would you like to talk about tone? I

[00:49:39.07] spk_1:
uh it

[00:49:43.97] spk_0:
is tony-martignetti non profit radio you could be the aptly named host, so no, uh I mean I have some other stuff to ask, but what do you want to talk about your your book or your practice?

[00:49:51.37] spk_1:
Well

[00:49:51.81] spk_0:
we can talk about the practice

[00:50:13.96] spk_1:
a bit because I think um one of the things that I found interesting about um coaching with people over the past few years especially is this element of like really wanting to get unstuck, especially when they’re, you know, they’re challenging their business and they’re feeling like uh how do I get to that next place, How do I get that next? You know, past this hump that I’m in um so maybe we can talk a little bit about that,

[00:50:20.56] spk_0:
okay.

[00:52:05.75] spk_1:
Um so one of the things that usually comes to mind and I like sharing this model called, I call it, expand your vision narrows your focus. And the reason why I call it that is because oftentimes the stuck nous that we feel is because we don’t, we’re not seeing beyond what’s right in front of us, We’re just seeing the wall. And so oftentimes, um, when I’m talking with people, I’m getting them to think about new possibilities. Um, what else is possible for me. And so I’ll have them do is I’ll have them say I expand your vision means like just really stepping away from that wall and create some more options. Um, and don’t feel as though you can leave anything out just like completely brainstorm, think differently, you know, what’s on the periphery of who you are, what you’re doing, what your business is up to. Um, and even when you think about it from the nonprofit, like where are the things that like if we’ve only been doing traditional things, how can we get nontraditional? What are the non traditional ideas? So just put them all out there and when you start to explore those different options and you say, okay, well this is the one that I really think is interesting. It hasn’t, it’s intriguing us. Then you narrow your focus and that’s the next part of this, which is to say this is what we’re gonna really spend our time and effort in and all those other things, they just kind of go away and they become not important right now. It’s like you say no to everything else. And this becomes the primary focus of the next move forward until you’ve investigated it. And you find whether or not it’s not the path, if it is the path and fantastic, but it’s like an iterative process, you can kind of say, expand narrow, expand, narrow until you figure out the path that’s really gonna mean a lot for you as a business.

[00:52:22.65] spk_0:
It sounds like the inspired workplace, or at least it reminds me of inspired workplace that you talked about in the book.

[00:53:13.85] spk_1:
Yeah. In a sense, Yes, but it’s a there’s a lot more to the inspired workplace because it’s more than just getting them to think like, okay, you know, you show up in your, you know, going to create an inspired workplace, it definitely gets new possibilities going and gets them thinking differently. But with the inspired workplace, what if I usually tap into there is I want to make sure that people understand that, that you can make failures and you can allow people to really feel safe in the process of doing that, because, you know, constantly there’s gonna be people who are feeling like, can I really share that idea, can I really get out there and do this so like this, we have to make sure that in the process of expanding our vision and narrowing of focus, we also create that safety and trust that allows people to feel as though I can do all this because if you don’t have that foundation, it makes it really hard for people to do that.

[00:53:19.75] spk_0:
That goes back to vulnerability to

[00:53:22.18] spk_1:
absolutely

[00:53:22.99] spk_0:
willingness to

[00:53:23.76] spk_1:
be

[00:53:34.15] spk_0:
alright. Um is your is your official name on your birth certificate? Is it Anthony or

[00:53:34.55] spk_1:
is it is it

[00:53:35.53] spk_0:
is so you use Anthony like when you open a bank account or something like that?

[00:53:39.45] spk_1:
You

[00:53:40.11] spk_0:
do? Yeah, I do too.

[00:53:44.95] spk_1:
Yeah. All

[00:54:05.54] spk_0:
right. Um you want to leave us with Some, I mean you’re pretty, you’re you’re pretty inspiring. Overall we’ll be talking almost almost 50 minutes. You’re it’s hard for me to say leave us with inspiration. You’ve been inspiring. Um but uh I know you want to give it a shot, give it see if you can bundle all your inspiration into uh into a couple of sentences of closing please.

[00:54:12.30] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ll get I’ll get a good closing for you.

[00:54:15.50] spk_0:
So

[00:54:49.14] spk_1:
the one thing that I often tell people is if you’re feeling like you have lost the spark in your life in your work, the best thing you can do is look for the signs of the things that are that do spark you up and do more of that. You know when I when you look at the week ahead, if there’s nothing on your calendar that you look forward to look for, put something on your calendar at least one thing that will get you going that will make you look forward to the week ahead and that is a starting point. You want to make sure they have something to look forward to.

[00:55:00.04] spk_0:
tony-martignetti chief inspiration officer at inspired purpose coaching inspired purpose

[00:55:01.18] spk_1:
coach

[00:55:07.34] spk_0:
dot com and he’s at tony-martignetti one. Sorry about that, don’t

[00:55:09.54] spk_1:
what

[00:55:28.94] spk_0:
a pleasure. Great. Find your over. That’s good. Yeah, we don’t dwell on these things. Right. Of course you’d be the, you’ll be the last person to be still piste off Eight years later that you didn’t get at tony-martignetti that would defeat everything. We just talked about antithetical to your entire being anyway, so what a pleasure to have you Tony. Thank you very much. Really enjoyed the same

[00:55:32.13] spk_1:
here. Thank you so much.

[00:55:35.74] spk_0:
Next week We’ll get back to our 2022 NTCC

[00:55:39.02] spk_1:
coverage

[00:56:46.74] spk_0:
if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. I feel bad about that too. You can’t, you can’t have tony-martignetti I missed this guy’s life up. I messed it up but I was, I was first of the game, what can I tell you, I was responsive by turning to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission and by fourth dimension technologies I T infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez marc Silverman is our web guide and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with Me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95%. Go out and be great, mm hmm, mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for March 21, 2022: Improve Your Relationship With Failure

Ashley Good: Improve Your Relationship With Failure

We all know we ought to learn from failure. But most of us don’t have that healthy relationship with failure. Ashley Good reveals the breakdowns to help us improve the relationship. Her consultancy is Fail Forward.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:00:15.84] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the

[00:00:18.54] spk_1:
the other

[00:00:45.04] spk_0:
95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of a tick a phobia. If you shared with me the fear that you’d miss this week’s show improve your relationship with failure. We all know we ought to learn from failure, but most of us don’t have that healthy relationship with failure. Ashley Good reveals the breakdowns

[00:00:47.43] spk_1:
to

[00:01:13.24] spk_0:
help us improve the relationship. Her consultancy is fail forward And Tony’s take two easy, comfortable donor relationships, responses by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome Ashley Good. She is founder of fail

[00:01:16.33] spk_1:
forward,

[00:01:20.64] spk_0:
the world’s first failure consultancy supporting people and organizations to acknowledge,

[00:01:24.14] spk_1:
create

[00:01:24.77] spk_0:
and evolve from

[00:01:26.64] spk_1:
failure.

[00:01:28.24] spk_0:
A winner of the Harvard business review Mckinsey Innovating innovation

[00:01:33.23] spk_1:
challenge,

[00:01:34.54] spk_0:
fail forward helps businesses, governments and nonprofits harness their failures

[00:01:41.34] spk_1:
to

[00:01:44.94] spk_0:
learn innovate and build resilience. The company is at fail forward dot org and at fail forward. Ashley Good. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:53.74] spk_1:
Thanks so much. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:57.74] spk_0:
My pleasure to have you. Thank you joining us from toronto I

[00:02:00.83] spk_1:
AM Yes. And you may be able to hear a little baby crying in the background. That’s my 10 month old who just woke up from his nap.

[00:02:18.44] spk_0:
There he is. Absolutely we are. We are. We’re not only family family friendly. The and anybody could be family friendly. We’re family embracing If you’re if you’re a 10 month old has to come in with

[00:02:20.50] spk_1:
you. I

[00:02:21.78] spk_0:
understand. We’ll,

[00:02:23.31] spk_1:
we’ll

[00:02:23.86] spk_0:
we’ll still be able to hear you over. No, no problem at

[00:02:25.99] spk_1:
all.

[00:02:27.54] spk_0:
Uh, so welcome. Welcome from one of our northern neighbors. Glad to have you.

[00:02:33.34] spk_1:
Thanks for that.

[00:02:34.74] spk_0:
You’re

[00:02:36.14] spk_1:
company

[00:02:39.24] spk_0:
bio starts with in many ways, our relationship with failure either unlocks our full potential

[00:02:45.34] spk_1:
or

[00:02:46.31] spk_0:
keeps us from ever realizing it.

[00:02:48.84] spk_1:
Please.

[00:02:50.27] spk_0:
I think that’s a great place for us to begin. Please explain that.

[00:03:50.84] spk_1:
Yeah, So I guess where that line came from is how our relationship with failure often is one that is rooted in fear. Um, at least that’s what I hear the most from my clients is they’re calling me because they feel like their fear of getting it wrong is the reason that they’re not taking the risks. They might otherwise desire to um, the fear of what might happen. Their fear of letting other people down. The fear of being seen as a failure by the folks around them, hold us back from maybe from doing a lot of the things that um, that might help us learn and grow and on the flip side of that, you know, our healthy relationship with failure is one where we feel we feel safe stepping out of our comfort zone, recognizing that that, that, that often deep discomfort we experience amidst our failure is um, really the thing that transforms us into the people that we, that we might become, you know, reaching that full potential as it were, is only possible for willing to push ourselves to the edge of what we’re capable of

[00:04:04.04] spk_0:
outside our comfort zone.

[00:04:08.04] spk_1:
Exactly. I

[00:04:09.94] spk_0:
do do organizations come to you when they’re in crisis

[00:04:13.66] spk_1:
sometimes?

[00:04:15.58] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:05:02.54] spk_1:
yeah, I get a little bit of both. I see too equally important sides of my work. There’s the learning component. So you’re, you’ve had a failure and often folks are not treating each other very well or they’re not communicating very well and they needed a little bit of support, um maximizing what they can learn from that event. So there’s the learning aspect of the work that I do, trying to maximize what we, what we take away and how do we move forward from our failures more wisely? Um, and then there’s what I might call like a risk taking or the innovation side, How do we create the conditions under which we can, we feel safe taking those risks where we’re confident enough to do the things that we might not know how to do yet. Um in order to push ourselves to keep up with the pace of change or are competitive pressures or whatever they might be.

[00:05:16.94] spk_0:
Mhm. I feel like the, the combination of your work and, and you’re thinking, uh, you should be, your name should be Ashley Exemplary. Okay,

[00:05:17.64] spk_1:
I don’t know about that

[00:05:19.70] spk_0:
because you, you want people, you want us to to to reach our full potential,

[00:05:24.94] spk_1:
absolutely

[00:05:25.95] spk_0:
not just be good, you want it to be, you want us to be exemplary, That’s the way I’m that’s what I’m hearing in the first few minutes. Anyway, I’m sorry for changing your name. I don’t mean to be so brash about, you know,

[00:06:11.34] spk_1:
well, and why I why I hesitate with it is because I mean, when I first started this company, I really thought I had something like I figured something out that I’m going to help people with, right? Like I’m gonna help people have a healthier relationship with failure and the more that I do this work, it’s been gosh, 11, 12 years now, the more I realized that I actually started it, because my own relationship with failure is so troubled and I probably need this more than anyone else. So um in asking people to, I kind of reached their full potential. It came from a place of actually wanting to build a healthier relationship with failure for myself as well. And um you know, tell myself it’s okay to be wrong, sometimes it’s okay to not be perfect all the time.

[00:06:17.84] spk_0:
Well, alright, I’m still gonna stick with Ashley Exemplary, but I’m sure we don’t have to go down that path.

[00:06:28.04] spk_1:
Tell a little

[00:06:50.44] spk_0:
about your your personal experience with failure. You you are public about that, you’re one of the things that you sent me to read in advance says, you know, you uh many of us including myself, you know, don’t have the right the right healthy relationship with failure, which we’ll be getting that we’ll talk about. But what’s a little bit of your own, your own background that I guess that led you to the you’re saying lead you to the work.

[00:10:35.74] spk_1:
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I could I could share that story in so many ways. Um I was inspired to work on this topic when I was working for Engineers without Borders, um working in international Development, working on an agricultural food chain project many years ago and saw lots of failures. I was working with incredible colleagues um who you know, were hand selected by the funding agency because they were exceptional. Um and yet when the when the donor came in to kind of ask about what was going right and wrong, um my exceptional colleagues, you know, didn’t didn’t necessarily share the whole truth. It didn’t lie, but but didn’t talk about the real fundamental challenges that that they were, that they were sharing. And I remember asking them afterwards, you know, why why didn’t you tell that guy what we’ve been talking about? Like he can actually change it for future projects and and it’s an oversimplification, but it was essentially like, you know, oh actually you’re so naive, like there’s no way we could do that. You know, we like, we like our jobs were great at our jobs because we can work around these things. Um, and telling that we all know, telling the donor isn’t necessarily the most advisable lot telling the donut the project was designed, it was designed incorrectly is not the most advisable thing for job longevity, shall we say. And, and I was really struck by that because it, of course they were right. Um, but it was my idealistic nature kind of held held tight and it frustrated me to no end that we can’t have those more honest conversations. Um, A a a longtime mentor, tim Brodhead described it as the dance of deceptions where um, nonprofits pretend to have the answer and the owners pretend to believe them and we just keep dancing in this dance of deception. Um, so that was really what sparked my passion for changing it. But I’d say on a, on a personal note as well, I, um, I had, I was at a very low point coming back from that experience. Um, and, and I, you know, I don’t need to describe for your listeners where we’ve all had ups and downs, especially over the last couple of years, but just in a, in a real, real pit. Um, and was, was walking, I pulled myself together was walking down the street and and realized that on the outside, you know, that the strangers that were passing me by, they’d never know how, how broken I felt inside. Um, and then, and I just had this aha moment where I realized that just like me, they, They could be suffering and I’d never know or they could be going through what I was going through or worse, 10 times worse. And I never know. And I had this moment of I’m just, I don’t, I don’t even know how to describe it, uh, clarity and I, and I, and love for these strangers. I was, I was passing on the street thinking that they could and probably would feel the suffering that, that I was in as well at some point. Um, and I, and I think that moment that made me like us a little wiser, a little more human, a little more empathetic. And, and I really held on to that belief in that moment because I think it helps me remember that those moments of suffering are what transform us and allow us to be more human. And that, that’s that those, that the hardest moments that were in, um, make us more

[00:10:51.24] spk_0:
human. That’s very at this poignant. Thank you for sharing. And you know, the, the empathy it makes me think of empathy for, for the,

[00:10:52.15] spk_1:
uh, the folks

[00:12:25.04] spk_0:
that your engineer colleagues were hiding the truth from. Uh, empathy for donors that we may conceal the truth from. Or I’ll just come right out and call it lie to about our, about our outcomes. But so empathy for those folks and, and how, how much of a disservice it is and how wrong it is to treat them that way, whether it’s a, I don’t know, it was a foundation or a government entity, whoever your engineering colleagues were talking to, you know, with billions of dollars of resources potentially. Or, you know, even if that wasn’t the case, but that could, that, that type of funder could be on one end of the spectrum, or is it a $50 donor who contributed to a larger program that I didn’t yield the outcomes that, that, that we had, we had hoped for maybe in, in, in, in any, in any kind of senate. Oh, it’s healthcare or feeding or whatever. Um, you know, the disservice we do, um, when we’re, when we’re not upfront and you know that I think it’s informed by all the talk about transparency and authenticity and honesty over the past. You know, that I guess that’s probably been 5, 7 years or so we’re supposed to be donor centric. Well, it started with donor centrism and then honesty and transparency and um, you know, we want to, we want to live the things that that were aspiring to.

[00:13:30.34] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I think we get into these patterns of interacting with each other where we feel we have to show up in a certain way. Um, and I I see, you know, we think that sharing our failures will show weakness. It will show, you know, it’ll show our incompetence, it will show that we don’t, we don’t really, you know, have it all together, we’re figuring it out as we go along. Um, and I fundamentally believe that when we share our failure as well as in we take ownership of them. We talk about what we learn, we talk about, you know, how we’re incorporating that going forward. It shows incredible strength and courage. Um, and I, the example I love to use because it’s so universal is um, is Babe Ruth, I’m famous baseball player who is famous for hitting somewhere in so many home runs, but he also held the record for the number of strikeouts for like over a decade, you know, and when he was asked about that, he said, um, well, every strike leads me closer to the next home

[00:13:34.28] spk_0:
run.

[00:14:10.24] spk_1:
And I think, I mean, we could all, we could all be a little bit more like Babe, as in, you know, he’s not denying that he got those strikes, like, yeah, I struck out, you know, I made the wrong call, maybe I lost us the game, I swung at the wrong pitch. Um, but I’m going to make sure that that gets me, that experience gets me or us the team closer to the next home run and here’s how and that can show incredible strength and courage if we can share our failures in that way. Um, and yeah, and like you said, demonstrate that authenticity and perhaps that it feels incredibly vulnerable, you know, even when we have that story of what the next home run is, it still feels terrifying to share those stories, but um but it can in that sense that you’re still doing it. It shows incredible strength to those listening

[00:14:32.74] spk_0:
I’ve said many times and many guests have said to uh vulnerability is a sign of strength,

[00:14:35.34] spk_1:
not

[00:14:35.93] spk_0:
not weakness, it’s a sign of confidence, not not weakness, vulnerability, humility.

[00:14:43.04] spk_1:
Yeah, one of those things that’s so easy to say, and then when you’re in the moment, almost impossible to

[00:14:59.84] spk_0:
do, alright, uh let’s talk about the ideal relationship with with failure, we’re getting into some of your more than nuts and bolts. Uh you have, you have a pretty straightforward cycle and then and then we’ll talk about why why we go astray?

[00:15:06.40] spk_1:
We

[00:15:07.10] spk_0:
go astray from the ideal. That’s that’s your practice, the filling the void between the ideal and the and the reality.

[00:16:21.14] spk_1:
Absolutely. So the the ideal is what I refer to as intelligent failure or a healthy relationship with failure. How do we feel? Well, basically um starts with acknowledging that failure is inevitable, just uh you know, expecting it from that perspective so that we can detect it early ideally. Um and then we want, when we detect it, we want to analyze it effectively to maximize our learning after that we want to apply that learning, we want to let that lessons learned, report collect dust on a shelf, how do we apply that to actually change our behaviors. Um, do something new or try again whatever it is. Um, and then how do we let that whole experience uh, inspire us to take, continue to take risks and bold action knowing that even the things that we try that don’t work out, we are able to recognize them, learn from them and apply that learning and move forward more wisely. Um, so that opens up more room to take risks and innovate, which of course leads to more failure, but hopefully different failures the next time around the loop and you can check out. Um, so if you google intelligent failure, you’ll probably see the loop come up on google, You can see the visual there.

[00:17:53.04] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications the problem because of their local missions, US community foundations are largely ignored by national media. So when the media covers philanthropy and public policy, community foundations are often left out the turn to approach media relations, building relationships. You’ve heard me talk about that before with national journalists and getting local community foundations op EDS and interviews. Also owned media, creating a website and social media presence to showcase the work of community foundations and capacity building ongoing resources and training for communications teams at local community foundations. So the community foundations were not getting attention. Turn to turn that around. You don’t have to be a community foundation to have turned to turn around your absence in the media, turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o This applies in all kinds of realms. I mean, I’ve seen it applied to software development. I mean, it certainly applies to, uh, nonprofit community.

[00:17:59.33] spk_1:
It’s

[00:18:00.16] spk_0:
just, it’s sort of universally applied, isn’t it?

[00:20:07.04] spk_1:
I mean, I think so. I think failure is a universal experience and um, and we want to react to it in that way. The, and I should stay just to give your listeners the utmost respect. Like I know they already know what I just said. Everyone already knows how we should respond to failure. We know we should, you know, detect it, acknowledge it, analyze it, change their behavior and continue to take those risks. Everyone knows that. Um, and in many ways we think we do it because we know what it is. But the reality is that almost none of us myself included are able to actually practice, um, that intelligent failure consistently when we’re in the midst of it. The great analogy that my co author Diana Kander shared with me was it’s analogous to what we do when we fall like when we, when we fall down, our instincts are to, you know, to put our arms out to brace our fall, we tight, tense up and we tend to break wrists and hips and all sorts of other things. Falling is the number one reason why people end up in the hospital. Um, and yet there’s a right way to fall. Uh and there’s there’s examples of physiotherapists and and even this 80 year old man that I read about that like practices falling well every day. And it goes around like assisted living centers teaching other generally older people how to fall well. And it’s totally different. You you let your body relax to kind of absorb more of the shock, you protect, you know, your head or your side with your arms depending on where you’re falling and kind of tuck and roll out of it. Um but that’s not what our instincts are and most people have never thought about that, right? We we don’t and the same is true with failure. We don’t think that our instincts might lead us astray. And no one, probably no one’s ever told us that our instincts might lead us astray. Um but in almost all cases, um our instincts and and often organizational norms, learned behaviors will cause us not to fill intelligently. Um and so we need to practice our tuck and roll out of our failures. Uh and and learn what that is.

[00:20:26.74] spk_0:
I just have one correction to make. Uh they they are our listeners, our listeners.

[00:20:31.14] spk_1:
Thank you. So

[00:20:52.94] spk_0:
where do we go astray? Um there there you call them exit ramps that we can uh we avail ourselves of very well as you’re saying, you know, very conveniently, but not not more than convenient instinctively. We avail ourselves of uh Mhm exiting the the ideal that ideal loop of failing intelligently.

[00:21:00.54] spk_1:
Oh, you know, it’s um how long is your podcast? Because I feel like this is the whole like I’ve been doing this work for 10 years, this is the whole reason I have a job. So I could go on for days about this. Well

[00:21:12.23] spk_0:
we have an hour,

[00:21:13.17] spk_1:
okay,

[00:21:14.09] spk_0:
Give us about another 40

[00:21:15.30] spk_1:
minutes. I will, I will try to but

[00:21:30.84] spk_0:
we don’t but I also would like we we need to spend some time on how to re conceive failure, you know, in your organization so that you’re avoiding some of the avoiding some of these exit ramps. So maybe maybe not every

[00:21:35.14] spk_1:
not

[00:21:36.22] spk_0:
every one of the the exits, but you know, there’s there’s some, there’s like like there’s some introspection involved.

[00:22:33.24] spk_1:
Yeah, I think there’s some common ones for sure. So I mean a big one folks, we tend to assume that it’s easy to detect failure. We just know when it happens. But a big challenge that I see is the is the kind of denial or escalating commitment um biases that we have that prevent us from even detecting that what we’re doing is a failure and have us keep doing the things that we probably should stop. You know, that denial comes from a place of either, we’re not getting the information that we need are asking the right folks for feedback about what’s working and what’s not um or simply confirmation bias. You know, we want to believe that things are working on are going well. So we look for information that reinforces that. Um, what about

[00:22:36.14] spk_0:
Tito, can we talk a little about personal and institutional, both on both levels? Ego.

[00:22:51.84] spk_1:
That’s interesting. I, so I’ll give you a personal example of this. Um, just before I started my company fell forward, I started a website called admitting failure And it was a place for anyone to share their stories of failure and learning, you know, never again, what a mistake he repeated because this website existed built into the database. There’s gonna be thousands, thousands of failure stories shared on this. Got a lot of attention to a lot of media interviews and you know, I, I don’t know, it’s been whatever 13 years since then. And there are 32 stories shared on that site. 32

[00:23:14.91] spk_0:
is a much more exemplary place than we realized certainly than you realize you’re just a negative, negative

[00:23:21.95] spk_1:
asking people

[00:23:23.26] spk_0:
Of humanity why why are you so harsh on humanity? There’s only, there only been 32 failures in 13 years.

[00:24:57.94] spk_1:
Exactly. Um, and, and on the other side of that, I’m totally amazed that 32 per strangers wanted to put the failures on my, but uh, and, and I had, I had some, some donor funding for that. And I remember the day very clearly when they were telling me like, no, this, this isn’t working actually. You have zero stories on this, this experiment failed, ironically the site about failure failed. You need to do something else. And I’m supposed to be great at this. You know, I’m supposed to be the one that has that healthy relationship with failure. That’s what I’m trying to help people create by building this site after all. And I’m sitting there talking to donors being like, you’re wrong, let me show you all of the reasons why this is working. And there were like a couple of indicators that it was going well, but they were right obviously, and I just, I don’t know if it, I wouldn’t call it ego so much as I loved the idea so much and I wanted it to succeed so much and and perhaps a little bit of sunk costs fallacy to like I’d sunk a lot of my time and energy into, to making it and I really wanted it to work that it was really hard for me to see that it hadn’t worked. And I had that optimism bias as well. Like I just, I thought that if we just kept at it and if I just did a few different things, we might figure it out and ultimately it wasn’t, it wasn’t gonna work if you build it, they will not share your favorite stories and just and and it was only through the process of accepting that that I was able to start fail forward and and realized what was actually needed and what I actually want to spend my time on, but but it didn’t happen immediately.

[00:25:21.84] spk_0:
Is there is there such a thing as a a final failure that that we we just it’s unreal. It’s unrecoverable. We’re going beyond, we’re getting little metaphysical, but that’s such a beautiful

[00:25:23.94] spk_1:
question. I

[00:25:32.44] spk_0:
mean, on the beyond the organization, maybe it’s an individual, you know, is there such a thing on either level as the final unrecoverable failure?

[00:27:20.54] spk_1:
And you know, I think it’s always possible that any failure will destroy us. I think it’s also always possible that any failure could transform us into something wiser if we let it, I think it has less to do about the actual facts of the event and more to do with where we’re at as as human beings, you know, do we have, Do we um do we have the resources we need uh and the support we need to actually recover and try again? Um Do people believe in us? Do we believe in ourselves? Do we have enough time to do that healing process and get enough distance from it that we can look objectively and learn the lessons that we need to do? We have the self awareness um to kind of ask ourselves the questions that we need to and bring in the people we need to to be able to maximize what we can learn from it. There’s a lot of different pieces that have to be at work there. Um but even the worst failures, I always um I always believe it is possible to use those moments uh to become more human. Vm The metaphor I love to use is the japanese art of repairing pottery with gold, I believe it’s called. Um So you take these broken pieces of pottery and you you glue them together with gold enamel and the pieces are just stunning and the art form recognizes that the piece is more beautiful for having been broken. You’re not hiding it. You know, you’re not trying to put it back to just the way it was. Um you know, you’re saying like I I can be better because of this.

[00:27:29.14] spk_0:
So you don’t think there is

[00:27:30.59] spk_1:
a

[00:27:32.04] spk_0:
final final failure. If if you have the right support confidence resources, you know, the things that the things that you describe Alright, alright, I

[00:27:41.86] spk_1:
don’t, I don’t think any failure has to be final.

[00:27:44.08] spk_0:
I think you can mess

[00:27:45.12] spk_1:
up really, really bad and you can hurt a lot of people and and and and then it becomes even more important that you do the near impossible work of repairing with gold.

[00:28:10.04] spk_0:
Mhm. Those, you know, those resources that support even the confidence um

[00:28:11.44] spk_1:
that’s going to vary

[00:28:46.24] spk_0:
depending on your background, I’m I’m thinking of women minorities who don’t uh don’t in, in, in a lot of, a lot of situations have, you know have that even the internal the self confidence, let alone the external support and confidence resources that more privileged folks do have, that’s gonna, that’s gonna affect your your outcome from the same failure across all across all folks.

[00:30:23.44] spk_1:
I know and it is a who uh just in the injustice piled on the injustice, I guess that’s how I might describe that one that that the privileged and the ones that that have all those opportunities. Um you know, it’s it’s easy to feel it’s easy for for us to stand up and say like, yeah, feel fast, feel often go out, feel fast and break things, you know, and you put that poster up on your wall uh, when that speaks to a very small sliver of the population that can actually do that with that kind of gung ho rara Silicon Valley, um pizzas. Um it’s because, you know, they have endless resources and and uh and a and a culture that supports folks to try try again. Um, and I think, I think what’s really needed across um across those boundaries, like, you know, for for for all of us um to offer each other grace in times of failure that, you know, we all need that time and we’re all capable and and it’s always possible to um, to move forward more wisely. So how do we give each other that grace of the second chance um would be would be my invitation and not just to the to the uh, the privileged few, but to

[00:30:30.24] spk_0:
everyone interesting. Our, our conversation has taken a different turn for

[00:30:34.74] spk_1:
half

[00:30:35.04] spk_0:
an hour or so. But that’s fine.

[00:30:36.11] spk_1:
I

[00:30:37.96] spk_0:
only got to the

[00:30:38.55] spk_1:
first step around the loop and the exits. My goodness

[00:30:46.34] spk_0:
you did. I know well you’re, you’re, you’re suffering a lackluster host. You know, I, I think I digress and no etcetera. But uh,

[00:30:49.66] spk_1:
no,

[00:30:50.03] spk_0:
I think very, very informative introspective. You know, I appreciate your sharing your not your own, not only your own stories but

[00:31:00.04] spk_1:
your thoughts.

[00:33:04.74] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. I wish for you. Easy, comfortable donor relationships. What am I talking about? The kinds of relationships where you can pick up the phone, the person is going to take your call or if you leave a message, you’re very, very confident. There’s, there’s no question they’re gonna call you back. The kinds of relationships where you can write a quick handwritten note. It doesn’t have to be a formal letter 8.5 by 11 word document. The kinds of relationships where there’s trust. There’s and these relationships are fun. Right? Those are the kinds of relationships I hope you have with your donors planned giving donors or otherwise it doesn’t make a difference. Um, I posted about this on linkedin and Kirsten Hill suggested the word authentic to describe these relationships. Absolutely, Joanna brody also commented and reminded me that these kinds of relationships ease tension, Joanna. Absolutely right. So that if there is ever conflict, hopefully there isn’t. But you know, things happen on both sides. If there is ever a conflict it’s so much easier to resolve when you’ve got these comfortable authentic donor relationships. These are the kinds of relationships I hope you’re striving for and I hope you’re enjoying with your donors. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for improve your relationship with failure with Ashley. Good. See relationships again, the relationships are ubiquitous. Let’s talk more on, on an organizational level. What, what, what kind of culture? Um, what kind of ceo do, what can a

[00:33:08.35] spk_1:
supervisor

[00:33:18.14] spk_0:
of others who is not necessarily the ceo due to, to foster this. Um, intelligence failing.

[00:33:21.34] spk_1:
Mm hmm. What

[00:33:25.04] spk_0:
do we need to encourage others to think about? What do we need to do for ourselves?

[00:33:26.95] spk_1:
I

[00:33:31.14] spk_0:
guess acknowledging our own failures when they, when they occur setting the

[00:34:58.54] spk_1:
example. Mm hmm. Um again, there’s many ways I can answer that question. I think there’s an there’s an individual because organizations are made up of individuals. There’s something that everyone of us as individuals can do and leaders most importantly must do if they want to see a healthy relationship with failure thrive? Uh, so there’s the individual actions. There’s also kind of the organizational structures. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna touch on the individual side first. Um, and that’s simply, I, I love to talk about four mindsets or like our ground rules that I often set when I’m facilitating groups. Um So the ground rules are blameless nous humility, empathy and curiosity. So the blameless nous is recognizing that everyone makes, no one shows up to work hoping to mess up. You know, we’re all trying to do the best job possible. So blame really doesn’t make sense. You know what you really want to be doing is figuring out how exceptional talented, hard working, intelligent people. I made the wrong call and and we ended up with the result that was that was undesirable. Um You know, how did we arrive at that conclusion? What what information was missing? How you know it’s a process vlog what how so how did that happen? Never who who doesn’t matter. Um because everyone’s trying their best. We want to know how are great people. Um You know I got to the wrong answer right?

[00:35:11.64] spk_0:
So before we move to the empathy we we can we can avoid the finger pointing. I mean maybe we do that. Maybe that we do that behind closed doors but you know to try to improve. But but there’s not there’s not a lot of value in you know who caused who caused it. Like it could be

[00:35:21.69] spk_1:
that there’s no value in it. It’s completely counterproductive

[00:35:25.94] spk_0:
that

[00:35:26.73] spk_1:
that blaming someone has the exact opposite impact that you want it to. So it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. Maybe they deserved to be finger pointed, who cares? Because by pointing fingers at them, you are guaranteeing that they show up even more

[00:35:41.31] spk_0:
defensive because they know

[00:35:42.75] spk_1:
that you’re blaming them and therefore the more defensive they are, the less likely they’re ever going to be to learn from that experience because you never learn if you’re stuck in that defensive position because you’re just there protecting yourself,

[00:35:55.17] spk_0:
protecting your job

[00:35:56.02] spk_1:
or you know, whatever,

[00:35:57.64] spk_0:
it’s not only them, everyone around them will see, see the, see the blame, see the injury that it causes to the blamed person or people and and react the way you’re describing. So

[00:36:21.53] spk_1:
it’s legitimate to be angry and upset that somebody did the wrong thing, I get that. So but deal with that within yourself before having the conversation with them. If you want to maximize what you can learn and move forward more wisely, I’m not saying it’s easy, it’s almost impossible,

[00:36:25.92] spk_0:
like so much of

[00:36:26.80] spk_1:
this, but but that’s the goal.

[00:36:30.18] spk_0:
Maybe it’s easier than almost impossible. Okay,

[00:36:33.90] spk_1:
depends on, it depends on the situation,

[00:36:41.33] spk_0:
reasonably likely that you can do this with some with some some of your own introspection.

[00:36:43.23] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:36:44.35] spk_0:
it takes a lot

[00:37:48.03] spk_1:
of self awareness. Yeah. But yeah, that’s blameless nous right, recognizing that no matter how bad the decision the chances are that person did it with good intentions. Um the so the second and humility Um you know, so often we want to blame as opposed to looking at ourselves as I often say in groups, you know, even if the failure was 99% not your fault. What’s the 1% of things you could have done differently? What’s the 1% you did contribute or did what didn’t you do that? You might have, you know, really looking for your your own role in trying to see and own whatever piece you can the the empathy piece. I use the word empathy almost to get folks out of that tendency to judge. Obviously those judgmental thoughts are always there, especially in terms of failure when emotions are high. Um, and often the consequences are high. But really trying to get ourselves out of that tendency to judge and move into a stance of empathy, recognizing that um, you know, really putting yourselves in their shoes that you can see how they could have arrived at that conclusion or that decision, right? I understand they might have had this lens, you know, really trying to understand where they might be coming from. So even if you don’t agree, you can at least empathize with with their position. And then finally, probably the most important one.

[00:38:05.61] spk_0:
This is the second time we’ve talked about empathy.

[00:38:08.72] spk_1:
Mm hmm. It’s important that

[00:38:16.22] spk_0:
there’s a lot of a lot of that in this work because we’re talking because what we’re talking about its failure. You if you if you’re not going to have empathy for, you know earlier we were talking about the people who are mistreated,

[00:38:22.62] spk_1:
you lied

[00:38:28.72] spk_0:
to deceived, you know, whatever by errors of omission or um, You know, but now we’re talking about empathy for the folks who contributed even 1% to the failure.

[00:41:05.91] spk_1:
Yeah, often I hear when I’m facilitating in teams, you know, staff want to blame their boss, you didn’t set me up for success or the executive didn’t do this or the donor didn’t do this or whatever it is. Um, and it’s, and it’s stepping back from that that your judgments may be true, but it doesn’t matter. Can you understand where they’re coming from so that you can have a conversation with them about how you do better going forward. That’s the whole goal, right? The goal is learning moving forward more wisely. Um, anyway, the last of the four values or mindsets um, is curiosity and this is the one that I probably spend the most time on only because I think it’s, we’re so we’re such great problem solvers, especially in times of failure, we just want to identify the problem, I want to fix it and often what folks need much, much more than problem solving cause if it was easy to solve they would’ve already done it is the curiosity, you know, trying to, trying to help others deepen their learning around what around the experience and ask the curious questions to help understand their perspective. So you can get at that rich or learning to allow yourself to move forward more wisely. Um so those are those are the four mindsets that ideally, like I said, leaders exemplify, they share their own failures, they, you know, with that humility and that blameless nous. They get curious when other failures happen um and they empathize, you know, when they’re, when they’re folks maybe don’t, you know, implement their ideas as well as they could, but there uh they empathize with them and and ask how they can do better and then so that’s the, that’s the individual side and basically that’s for you, do this for your, your golden right? You might not even need the organizational side, but the reality is each individual, you know, it’s it’s a lot to put on an individual to ask them to show up with those four mindsets all the time. Um that and that our organizational structures often make that very difficult. So how do we shape our organizations? So that that’s the norm is basically the questions that I often ask, um executive teams because they’re in the position to start to shape recruitment systems and training systems and performance appraisal systems and um you know, the way stories are told and what stories get told and how people do after action reviews and do we create enough time and resources for those and basically my whole job on the organizational structure side is to make sure we’re not expecting X, but rewarding for why, as in like we’re expecting a healthy relationship with failure and people to own their failures and work together to have these conversations, but we reward people who defend themselves and throw other people under the bus and um, and prove that it wasn’t their fault. You know, we’re trying to avoid that, uh, that folly

[00:41:44.71] spk_0:
Many years ago when I was in the first year of the podcast, which is 10, this is our, this is our 10th year. So this is our 12th year. This part, this is our 12th year, 2010. Um, I had someone on from the new york times, Stephanie strom back when there was such a thing called the nonprofit beat in, in a, in a, you know, a world leader newspaper that doesn’t exist anymore. But she covered something that the World Bank ran called failure Fair

[00:41:46.41] spk_1:
Fair

[00:42:00.20] spk_0:
Fair had an E at the end F A I R E. Um, and they were, um, for listeners, this was the August 27th 2010 show. Um, the World Bank was highlighting

[00:42:01.79] spk_1:
failures

[00:42:08.70] spk_0:
was failure Fair be out be open. Um, and you know, 12 years ago that that wasn’t such

[00:42:11.10] spk_1:
a, there

[00:42:53.50] spk_0:
was, we were in the dark ages, I’d say of, of, of intelligent failure may be failing intelligently. Probably didn’t, maybe not even even existed as a phrase, but um, it was, it was the dark ages in any case. Um, so I, I don’t, I don’t know if the World Bank continues that or did it again, but They did it in 2010 and for such a high profile organization, International Organization to do that. I thought it was exemplary. You know, it merited coverage. The new york times felt felt that. So uh of course the new york times follows non profit radio that’s how they get their ideas for for chauffeur articles is by listening to the property naturally. Um anyway, just a shout out to the World Bank and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of failure fair.

[00:43:18.60] spk_1:
Yeah, I spoke at one of my hosted the, if you excuse my language, the puck up nights in Toronto for a while. Um Knights, Knights. Yeah, they are, it’s not necessarily in the non profit world, but it’s largely entrepreneurs that get together and it’s kind of a a very authentic networking experience. Pre covid obviously, but a

[00:43:23.19] spk_0:
very good chance

[00:43:24.25] spk_1:
to come together and share share failures. Where

[00:43:26.89] spk_0:
where was that? Was that in Canada?

[00:44:00.39] spk_1:
They are in hundreds of cities all over the world now started by Leticia Gasca out of Mexico City and spread across the world. I I’m a real, I mean obviously I hosted, I’m a real fan of these events for many reasons. I think the best thing that they do is de stigmatize failure, they bring, you know, all these, all these earnest folks together and they have a couple of great speakers lined up to share their failures honestly and openly, and you just had this experience in the audience of watching these people share and you’re like, oh my gosh, like that’s a really bad failure and they’re still standing

[00:44:05.13] spk_0:
really,

[00:44:05.37] spk_1:
really,

[00:44:05.64] spk_0:
I

[00:44:07.52] spk_1:
Remember 1 1 guy,

[00:44:09.98] spk_0:
the session

[00:44:10.50] spk_1:
I was hosting, it was like millions and millions and millions of dollars, and I was like, I’m getting nervous as your host.

[00:44:17.70] spk_0:
But

[00:45:44.09] spk_1:
anyway, and you and you see, and you see that they that they lived through it and that they are stronger because of it, like you and you watch them and and you know, no one’s throwing tomatoes at them, you know, they really are the strong wise leaders at the front of the room still. And so there’s this real de stigmatization that happens, it allows everyone in the audience to kind of put down their usual masks that you wear when you’re at networking events and actually show up a little bit more more human as I’ve said a number of times in this interview. Um so I love them from that perspective, I think the danger in them is that we assume that if we share those failures, no one else is going to make that mistake, like that’s how we’re going to learn, and I would say they’re not a very good learning tool because it’s so rare that someone in the audience isn’t exactly the same position and needs to learn that exact same lesson. So I think it’s great from a cultural perspective. Um, and I’d say the other risk in them that I I feel really uncomfortable with them and not for profit world is the celebrating failure because those failures have real consequences on people’s livelihoods. So when you have an event and you’re making light of them, i it just it doesn’t sit well with me. I’m all for de stigmatizing failure in a healthy relationship with failure. But I can’t get behind celebrating it because you know, you’re talking about people’s livelihoods. Um, and

[00:46:01.38] spk_0:
maybe people who are impacted in other ways by by the failure. You know, if the if the project or program didn’t go well because we didn’t understand the culture in in Eritrea than than those people of you know, there may be relationships damaged there

[00:46:05.98] spk_1:
that

[00:46:09.68] spk_0:
where we, where we came with good intentions but uh, you know, but messed up people’s lives on the ground somewhere to

[00:46:41.88] spk_1:
Yeah, and to me that I mean that is not to be celebrated right? That is like I have a moral obligation to maximize what I learned from this experience. Like I’m allowed to get it wrong, I’m I’m not, I don’t have to be perfect, but if I do get it wrong, it is my responsibility to learn what I can from that and share that. And I think that’s more if we can come at it from that tone. It speaks a little bit more to me than I think some of these events got a little too um celebratory,

[00:46:43.07] spk_0:
celebratory. Yeah. Not

[00:46:45.22] spk_1:
to say that the lights aren’t fun. They are fun, but acronym is fun, but you know, it’s it’s from a place of recognizing how important it is that we learn from those.

[00:46:57.68] spk_0:
Wasn’t that uh the premise for your database was

[00:47:02.92] spk_1:
that

[00:47:04.08] spk_0:
nobody would make these mistakes again

[00:47:07.48] spk_1:
was wrong?

[00:47:24.78] spk_0:
I know I’m not I’m not I’m not I’m not blaming wright. I’m not blaming, I’m trying to I’m trying to be empathetic, but that was one of your objectives was to to prevent this from happening again. But right now, I mean the likelihood of someone being in the same circumstance, you know, a similar program, similar set of facts. Very reading

[00:47:34.54] spk_1:
that particular story on that web, particular website that they may or may not know about is that it’s pretty unlikely

[00:47:46.98] spk_0:
right? That too, Yes, they’ve got got to go to the website and read it. Yes. Um

[00:47:47.42] spk_1:
made a few mistakes in my assumptions around that project.

[00:48:00.67] spk_0:
What about a story um case um anonymized or not. I don’t, you know what, where uh an organization turned around. It’s it’s it’s thinking and maybe maybe maybe didn’t necessarily fail a second time more more intelligently,

[00:48:10.37] spk_1:
but you

[00:48:10.50] spk_0:
know, where you you saw, you saw a change

[00:48:12.86] spk_1:
in an in an organ at

[00:48:17.67] spk_0:
an organizational level that was that was going to make it more likely that in the future they would fail intelligently,

[00:49:00.97] spk_1:
You know, it’s funny, I often get asked for organizational examples like who do we look to to really um you know, be a role model for this and I shy away from it mostly because it’s not an arrival, like it’s not, you know, I have figured this out, I now have the perfect organizational structure and our leadership is exemplifying these things and we have like gold, gold star certification, we are an intelligence failure organization. It just, You know, I’ve been doing this for 10 years, I’ve worked with some incredible organizations, incredible leaders um and it’s, there is no end point in this,

[00:49:04.35] spk_0:
it’s a journey then

[00:49:23.37] spk_1:
maybe we’ll talk about it individually, it’s probably a little bit easier. I’ve been trying to promote a healthy relationship with failure for over a decade and I still struggle with my own failures and I still respond badly sometimes, you know, I’m aware of it often or probably hopefully I can recognize

[00:49:30.39] spk_0:
it in myself a little

[00:50:58.26] spk_1:
faster than most people do, but I still suck at it. So for me it is not about like this organization is totally figured it out, it’s how do we see this as a practice? Um kinda like staying in shape I guess, you know that we’re going to the gym and we’re lifting those heavy weights because we know that we have to keep doing that if we want to keep our muscle mass, like I think the same thing is true with um with a healthy relationship with failure, we want to keep pushing ourselves, keep taking those risks and seeing ourselves fall down and right, I know what I’m supposed to do when I do this, I’m supposed to own it and I’m bringing together the people that were involved to analyze it and that’s really uncomfortable and I don’t want to have that conversation, but I’m going to and I’m going to try to change my behavior and I’m going to ask for people to tell me when I make that mistake again. Um and I’m going to continue to push myself and that’s that’s kind of the the forever cycle. There isn’t necessarily an arriving um and I think there’s a lot of, a lot of groups that I’ve worked with that have taken, you know, three steps forward, two steps back, you know, another step or two for, you know, it gets a it’s hard to keep up. Um It’s hard, there, there is no example is basically my long winded way of saying that that, but there are a lot of incredible organizations who are doing incredible things with incredible leadership um really striving to make what is not instinctive work. Um

[00:51:14.36] spk_0:
Yes, counterintuitive, not right, but it’s a it’s a journey, it’s a practice. Alright, alright, you told an interesting story on another conversation with someone about um

[00:51:15.66] spk_1:
one

[00:51:24.96] spk_0:
Step Forward, two steps back um a an explorer in the in the North Pole. I thought that was a poignant story. Can you

[00:51:30.46] spk_1:
absolutely share

[00:51:31.94] spk_0:
That 1? You know what I’m talking about?

[00:51:39.66] spk_1:
I do. I do and you know what his name is totally escaping me. So please go back in your show notes and like reference the name. I’ll look it up after the

[00:51:41.57] spk_0:
interview.

[00:53:39.95] spk_1:
Um But it was a an explorer who an arctic explorer. So on the arctic ice sheets um And the North Pole has no no landmass, right? It’s just ice sheets that are constantly constantly moving around. He’s trying to make it to the North Pole. And you know, he’d walk and walk for hours and hours and at the end of um you know 10 12, 14 hours of walking. You have to set up camp and rest because you know, he’s still human and he said his gps and he’d wake up in the morning and would often find out that he had floated back and undid all of the work that he’d done the days before trying to make that progress. And he would still have to pack up his camp and keep marching towards that North Pole. And how um oh gosh! You can only imagine how that would feel like the futility of it, the the powerlessness in that moment of changing the directions of the ocean currents underneath you that are moving you further away from your definition? I think such a beautiful metaphor for what we often experience in our work. You know, we work so hard and toil and just the, the forces of the ocean can pull us away from that goal. And um, and he had some great wisdom to share and again, I apologize for not remembering his name, but it was basically he’d wake up and and even with that information that he had just been moved far further away from his gold while he slept, um, he’d set his sight on one ice mount, You know, whatever it was 50 ft away and say, you know what if I make it there today, that’s success and that’s that’s what he needed to pack up his gear, put back on his skis and and keep going and he gets that iceman and say, okay if I make it to that iceman today is a success and and little by little those little, those little those days, those little goals, you know, eventually, um I reached that North Pole goal

[00:53:55.35] spk_0:
mm actually, good founder of fail forward. The company is at fail forward dot org and at fell forward Ashley, thank you very much. Very stimulating, interesting conversation. Thanks thanks so much for sharing

[00:54:03.95] spk_1:
my pleasure

[00:54:07.34] spk_0:
next week. Talk about humility. I’m working on

[00:54:09.24] spk_1:
it.

[00:54:10.14] spk_0:
If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:54:16.44] spk_1:
We’re

[00:54:53.34] spk_0:
sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95%. Go out and be great, mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for February 28, 2022: Founder Syndrome

Heidi Johnson: Founder Syndrome

It can severely hold back a nonprofit’s work when the organization becomes the founder. What are the symptoms and treatments? Heidi Johnson is a founder, took over leadership from a founder, and has been studying founders and their orgs for many years. She hosts the blog and podcast, Charity Matters.

 

 

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[00:00:10.24] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to

[00:01:43.04] spk_1:
tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with parallel alia if I had to speak the words you missed this week’s show founder syndrome, it can severely hold back a nonprofits work when the organization becomes the founder, what are the symptoms? What are the treatments? Heidi johnson is a founder, took over leadership from a founder and has been studying founders and their organs for many years. tony steak too. Spring is in the air. We’re sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome for her debut on nonprofit radio Heidi johnson, she’s a co founder of Spiritual care guild, providing 24 7 chaplain support to Children’s hospital Los Angeles where she serves on the board of trustees. She’s the creator and founder of Charity Matters, a weekly blog and podcast that for over a decade has told the stories of nonprofit founders and their entrepreneurial journeys. It’s at charity hyphen Matters dot com and at charity matters Heidi johnson, Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:48.34] spk_2:
Thank you, Tony. Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:59.34] spk_1:
I’m glad. Thank you. My pleasure as well. So you’ve been a founder. You took over from a founder. I presume that in the organization that you founded, you didn’t leave things as bad as you found them when you took over from the founder?

[00:02:07.84] spk_2:
Well,

[00:02:09.33] spk_1:
well,

[00:02:10.24] spk_2:
I’ve gone through it all. I’ve been through it all. Let’s just put it that way. I’ve walked the walk, have walked the walk and I’m happy to share it. Let’s start

[00:02:26.34] spk_1:
the part of the journey with taking over from the founder. Uh, because that’s what we want to avoid folks having to deal with. You know, what, what did it look like? What did you have to go through? Tell us that, you know, it

[00:03:32.54] spk_2:
is, um, I refer to myself as the, the, the second life, the step mom. Um, everybody loves their mom and the step mom, you know, the person who comes in second is usually not as popular and um, and the founder is a beloved person. The founder is is so many great things and I have to say that I do think founders are some of the best humans on this planet. I mean they are, they are the charisma for the organization. They are the why they have the spark, they have the fire, they do beautiful things. The entrepreneurs like I, I have just the utmost respect for every founder I’ve ever talked to. I, I love these people. However, however, I think most founders don’t have a transition plan, a succession plan and I found myself in the predicament of having walked away from the nonprofit that I co founded with a group of people and inheriting one that was 32 years old at the time and had been founded by, um, a nun. So she was super beloved, Oh

[00:03:44.11] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:03:45.12] spk_2:
Oh yeah,

[00:03:46.64] spk_1:
nobody ever wants to cross, nobody wants to cross a nun. No, you can’t, they’re gonna get their knuckles

[00:03:51.33] spk_2:
slapped with the rules, you’re going to hell,

[00:03:52.98] spk_1:
right? I mean never crossing, it’s worse than crossing a priest.

[00:05:42.04] spk_2:
Exactly. So, so I, I come in and this organization has been a youth leadership organization where these, you know, 17,000 alumni have spent their summers with this woman who was like their mother and she is beloved by all and she was ill and not well and just said to the board, I’m gonna just close the organization and the board said, oh, no, no, no, no, you don’t just shut a nonprofit because you’re leaving. Um, that’s not how that works. And so it was, it was not a smooth exit strategy because there was no succession plan. Um, there was a lot of her feelings from obviously what I would call her kids are alumni who loved her and felt like she was sick and being shoved up by the board. It was, it was a big mess and I knew none of this when I was hired, right? I knew none of them. You didn’t know the history even, I knew that she was ill and was leaving. That’s what I was told. So of course I uncovered this pretty early on into my, yeah. And um, and it, it seriously, I, I’ve never been a second wife, I think, you know, knock on wood, but I felt that, um, that disconnect from our core base. Um, the board was supportive of me, but yet the board was still made up of people that were kind of on her team and wanted to talk about what we always do it this way. This is the way we do it because this is the way we do it, not because it’s the right way because this is what we do. And, and so just the battle started from the beginning. You know, it was just, that was just, that was like, you know, the first month

[00:05:57.34] spk_1:
was their staff to or was it just the executive?

[00:06:05.54] spk_2:
Yes. So they’re very small staff couple staff, a lot of volunteers. Um, some volunteers said just point blank, I won’t even speak to you. Like I don’t want to know you. I don’t want to work with you because that harsh.

[00:06:15.24] spk_1:
I don’t want, I don’t want, no, I don’t want

[00:06:35.74] spk_2:
to know you at all. And that was kind of my, um, and mind you, I had been interviewing nonprofit founders um, already for probably four years, three or four years at this point. So I’ve been interviewing nonprofit founders for charity matters. And um, and loving nonprofit founders and find myself in this situation. So it was so interesting having Ben a founder, having interviewed founders and now I am the second wife and I’m trying to navigate through this muddled transition. Um,

[00:07:00.44] spk_1:
very interesting. I thought I assumed that it was joining this organization that kicked off your interest in in talking to founders and your research. And yeah, you had already been doing it. And then unknowingly you find yourself as the, as the step wife the

[00:08:15.34] spk_2:
second, the second after starting a non profit as a volunteer with a group of friends I just became fascinated with. Who are these people that do this work? This work is incredibly Hard and and why would you do this work? I really, it was just fascinated with that. I knew that I had like a backstory and a catalyst and a moment that triggered me to want to do this work. But I was like, who are these other 1.6 million people and what’s their story? And by the way, why isn’t the world talking about them? And at that time, CNN Heroes wasn’t on People magazine Heroes amongst us. There was, there was nothing 10 years ago, there was really nothing about these people that truly are my heroes. So I just started my own personal quest. Um, as I walked away from spiritual care after running it for five years, I was like, who are these people? I need to find my, my people, my tribe. And I went in search of them and started charity matters, um, to start talking to founders. And so that so midway through my journey with charity matters, you know, this other nonprofit came to me and said, will you, will you take over what

[00:08:20.47] spk_1:
was the work of that nonprofit that you took over? Was it wasn’t the camp?

[00:08:33.54] spk_2:
So it’s yeah, so it’s called Task We are a youth leadership organization, a catholic youth leadership organization. And it used to just be a summer program to teach leadership um, in catholic schools. And um, we were serving 300 kids when I took over. Um, and now we’re serving 3000 and you know, we have a staff of were small, were small nonprofit organization. Again, task Ta CSC, it’s horrible acronym. Okay,

[00:08:54.14] spk_1:
all right. So were there people who, it doesn’t matter board members, volunteers may be among the small employee staff. Were there folks that recognized that the previous leader had been holding the organization back or was there just so much love for her that there was no, everybody was blind.

[00:09:54.94] spk_2:
There was, there was mixed, there was a mixed bag, I think our biggest donor, um, who had supported the organization for a long time and was also on the board, uh, realized that the organization to be more and, and he’s an incredible leader and visionary and he, he was really the one and because he had the deep pockets too, said we need to hire someone and, and our foundation will, will support this role and he kind of lead that, um, that task pun intended. um, that task to find a new executive director. And uh, and there was people that were very non supportive of that. But since she couldn’t run it, who was going to do it? And, and, and I think people don’t think about, they just think that these founders are gonna go on forever and it doesn’t work that way. It just doesn’t work that way.

[00:11:29.34] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Have you thought about thought leadership, would you like yourself or your nonprofit to be a thought leader around your work in your community? It takes time to achieve that kind of credibility, but turn to can get you there, get you to the point where your opinion is sought after, where people come to you for advice, where you’re the leader for your cause and in your community around your cause, turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o now back to founder syndrome. And and, and so the organization, right? So the organization was not sophisticated and here’s the biggest donor or one of the biggest donors saying, you know, my foundation will pay for it. You need to do this. So, you know, they’d be more apt to follow his lead than maybe a more sophisticated organization, but a more sophisticated organization would have had a succession plan and would have recognized years earlier that the organization was being held back, etcetera. So maybe, you know, in some respects, it helped the organization. Well, that he stepped forward and that they, well, it’s hard to say that helped them by not being more sophisticated because they could have been a lot further along than they were when you, when you joined. If

[00:11:43.24] spk_2:
you’re right. And I think just because you’re a small organization also doesn’t always mean you’re now, it’s fair to say that you’re probably not as sophisticated and you are correct in this situation. We were not that sophisticated.

[00:11:54.94] spk_1:
The try to be as light as possible. You

[00:11:57.46] spk_2:
know, the fact that the

[00:12:00.97] spk_1:
was thinking like stultifying of, you know, your fact that the founder had on the organization. That’s what I mean. I don’t mean very savvy. There are very savvy to person organizations

[00:12:17.54] spk_2:
100% well. And I think that what happens and we see this not just in nonprofits, we see this in small businesses is when the entrepreneur, which nonprofit founders at their core entrepreneurs, um, that they, they, they in the business become one, the brand becomes one and there is a blurred line. And I mean, you could use something, you know, as simple as Martha Stewart or Oprah magazine. I mean, obviously they are the brand, right? But in nonprofits, it happens. It’s the same thing happens. And where do you separate the person, the founder and the mission and it’s critical, I think for people to be aware of that in their own organizations.

[00:12:59.64] spk_1:
Yeah. So let’s talk a little more about, let’s flush out some of the symptoms sure of, you know, you’ve, you’ve mentioned, you know, the organization becomes the person, the person becomes the organization. But what does that, you know, a little more detail, what, what does that look like?

[00:14:53.44] spk_2:
Well, there’s, I think there’s a lot, a lot of things that can happen. I think, um, when 11 aboard starts, um, becoming just so dependent on the founder and so worried that the founder is everything that could be, you know, a little sign right there. I think when an organization becomes flat, I think when you don’t see a lot of growth, a lot of new work members coming, a lot of new, different people coming from different areas joining your, cause it’s kind of the same old, maybe cronies club. Um, or things get a little stagnant. There could be a sign there that we haven’t seen like new new people coming in. Oftentimes also, I think people rely on the founder as, because they bring the passion and they bring kind of the purpose and the, why people think of the founder as their, their best fundraiser. And, and it’s lots of cases they are. Um, and there the community builder, but it doesn’t mean that they’re the only person that can do that. And I think, um, it’s easy for people to kind of put all that on the founders shoulders because the founders innately exude that passion for their organization. And so I think that, that, that becomes a problem. Um, and I think that, that basically what happens is that people just start all of a sudden thinking that the founder and the organization is one and the same and they lose sight of the mission and the mission is whatever you’re setting out to do isn’t that person, you’re there as a community to serve that purpose, to serve people. And if it all becomes about that person, decisions are being made based mainly by that person, every decision has to go through that person. These are red flag warnings. Yeah,

[00:15:06.84] spk_1:
everything right. Everything has to go through them all the marketing, any language ng messaging, right, Right. Major decisions like the board is just rolling over all the time. You know, you’re not seeing ever robust discussions,

[00:15:34.64] spk_2:
right? I mean there and boards should always have, um, not healthy conflict, healthy conversation, healthy dialogue. You know, you always want that board member that kind of pushes back that kind of pushes back and says, Hey, what about this or why is this? I mean, we kind of love and hate that board member, but we need that board member, but it’s, it’s so important that you don’t become placated by just making sure everybody’s happy that that, that doesn’t make for a healthy organization necessarily.

[00:16:07.14] spk_1:
So we ought to have a succession plan. All right. So let’s let’s, let’s talk a little bit about the value of a succession plan and then, you know, what, what to do if you don’t have one. Uh, and you’re, you know, and you feel like you’re in this stultifying era with your organization and a founder, you know, how, what, what can you do? But let’s, let’s talk about the value of a succession plan. You know, what some motivation for for spending the time and money to, to create one.

[00:16:54.54] spk_2:
Absolutely. Well, I mean, every healthy organization should have a succession plan. And um, I kind of like my marriage to an entrepreneur and he says to me and his, his words are wise. He said everything you enter, but a marriage should have an exit strategy, Everything, but a marriage should have an exit strategy. So every time he starts a business or goes into business, he knows when he’s going to leave, before he starts, he knows when he’s going to leave and, and he is a consummate entrepreneur. And, and I think that that’s really sage advice now for many of these founders, it’s a little too late for that. They’re too far down the path there listening to this saying, oh my gosh, wow, I should have, I should have thought about that, but we may have boarded, but

[00:17:02.34] spk_1:
we have board members listeners to who may say, you know, we, we ought to have a succession plan because you could get ill

[00:17:52.84] spk_2:
can happen. Yeah, yeah. Anything can happen, right. Anything can happen. So every healthy organization should have a succession plan. And it minimum. I think that if people are starting to, even in the organization bring someone up underneath them, someone that they can, you know, train from within that they could promote that is even there in case of emergency that you have at least a net a person that’s a slight net underneath you in your org chart. It’s critical. It’s critical that you have that at minimum in addition to a formal succession plan, obviously. But I think that people get short sighted and founders especially get so busy wearing all the hats and doing all their things. But the last thing you’re thinking about is their own succession plan. That’s like looking at your own mortality, right? And and that’s and that’s why so many of them don’t have them because they don’t want to face the fact that there’s going to be a moment that they’re going to have to separate themselves from something that they don’t know how to separate from.

[00:18:41.94] spk_1:
Alright, what if someone is a board member or maybe even a a senior part of a staff and that, you know, there isn’t a succession plan. I mean, ideally there should be succession plans, not only for the Ceo, but for all the sea level now, you know, now we’re envisioning a bigger organization, but let’s just start with a, you know, a small, small organization, we’re talking about a succession plan for the ceo. They’re a founder. We’re a board member or a staff member. How do we raise this with? We have to start with the founder. Do we start there? Do we, do we have a coup and go to a board member,

[00:19:40.54] spk_2:
which is really not the way to? Well, I think it really, I think it really depends. I think, I think it’s always nice for, I think it’s there’s a combo between the coup and the conversation with the founder and it depends on the dynamics of your board, an organization. I think if you have a board member that has a close relationship with the founder, it’s really great to kind of tap them on the shoulder and say, hey, we talked to so and so, you know, Freddy founder about their their retirement or their plans for the future. Have they ever expressed to you how long they want to be here and start kind of getting those little seeds planted? I think that would be a really smart, delicate, healthy way to navigate and begin that conversation. Meanwhile, I think it’s important that board members on the side are saying we need our responsibility, Our responsibility as a board member is, is for the success of this organization. We have taken, you know, in lots of cases signed a legal document saying that we are going to support this organization and, and well,

[00:19:59.04] spk_1:
and even if they, even if they haven’t signed a document under under state law, they’re fiduciaries to the organization duties of loyalty.

[00:20:01.24] spk_2:
Absolutely

[00:20:02.38] spk_1:
loyalty obedience, which sounds bad, but it’s not

[00:20:06.35] spk_2:
Bad, but 100% there and all of our jobs,

[00:20:10.49] spk_1:
the loyalty of the organization, not to the person,

[00:20:29.14] spk_2:
it is all about the organization, is all about the organization and getting your board to row in the same direction and realize that it is all about the organization going in the same way in the same path is critical. So that might mean a a cool conversation and whatever you want to call it, a healthy dialogue with, with board members about talking about if they see these symptoms, even if they don’t see them, they should have that plan ready to go. They should have that plan at all times ready. And what does that look like? And, and and how do we do that?

[00:21:20.94] spk_1:
All right. And, and with the, with the understanding that this applies really to all organizations, whether whether you’re you’re still have the you have the founder and the ceo or not, a succession plan is worth the time that it takes. Um, it can be empowering to the folks who now know that they’re part of a leadership succession plan. So you’re more likely to retain your good talent because they know that that there is a plan for them to advance in the organization. So that’s empowering and reassuring to to people in your organization. Um, and it’s just, you know, part of the duty of care and loyalty to the organization. The organization’s future.

[00:21:34.64] spk_2:
And, and, and the irony of the whole thing is that as a founder, you know, because there is ego that is tied with it and I speak as a founder as well. I know that there’s a little piece of ego. You do want your legacy to go on. You think about your nonprofit as your child and you want that to go on and on without you. So part of you is saying, this has to go on and this is what I’m leaving behind. This is my good work on this planet that I have left behind and I have, I have started something beautiful that helps people. And then the other part of you is like, wait a minute who’s taking my child? Who am I giving my child to? That’s my child. And and so there’s, it’s, it’s complex, right? It just is complex. There’s, there’s two sides of this and you want the best for your child, but you don’t want to let your child go.

[00:25:35.94] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. Ah Spring. The days are getting longer. In just a couple of weeks, Sunday, March 13. The days are going to get even longer. We turn the clocks forward A week from that on March 20 is the first day of spring. It’s looking like after three years, we’re going to be emerging to something pretty normal. That’s the way it looks today. The last day of february when I’m releasing this, That’s the way it looks so on the most basic and practical level. Or maybe even base level. Think about your summer. There’s gonna be a lot of, a lot of people getting out this summer that have not been able to for three years. Make your plans, get yourself sink, tup, get your reservations. It may already. It’s kind of late, I think. But you certainly got to do it now, if you haven’t already for your for your summer plans, A lot of people are gonna be out spring for me. It means more time outside. Of course, more time on the beach. I found a poem. I’m gonna try this. May I favor you with this code? It’s Emily Dickinson a light exists in spring. A light exists in spring, not present on the year at any other period when marches scarcely here, a color stands abroad on solitary fields that science cannot overtake. But human nature feels it waits upon the lawn. It shows the furthest tree upon the furthest slope. You know, it almost speaks to you then as Horizons Step or Nunes report away without the formula of sound, it passes and we stay a quality of loss affecting our content as trade had suddenly encroached upon a sacrament. I hope that’s OK. Emily Dickinson a light exists in spring. Ah spring, rejoice go out enjoy. It’s nearly here. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for founder syndrome with Heidi johnson from the loftiness of Emily Dickinson to the baseness of cheap alliteration, boo koo. But loads. My goodness. So let’s shift a little. Now now we’re were in your situation at at task. You know, how do you start to win over some folks? I don’t know. Do you leverage your couple of allies or your one ally or you know, what’s what’s your advice for starting the movement beyond the sweet nun? I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine about.

[00:27:07.04] spk_2:
She’s lovely. She’s wonderful. She’s wonderful. She there’s nothing, there’s nothing bad about our founder except that she left, right? And she abandoned her Children, right? And she got sick. She there’s no she’s a wonderful woman. Um but the but how you start that transition when you come in as a second wife. Um and and mom is left and you have, you know, kids that are missing mom and don’t really know who you are. Uh for me it was the board, the board was was made up of um a group of alumni that um that in a way really. I’m the mother of three sons. Um and there were some of these board um members gentlemen who who are fantastic. But as a group, they were like a pack of of kids. They had they were alumni. They’d been to camp together. They were a little gang and they behaved like a little gang and as a mother of sons. Um, my first board meeting was a call before zoom and I listened to them beating up on this one person and I was, I was just a board member of each board member beating up verbally on one. They all picked on one board member. And I couldn’t believe what I was listening to and I remember

[00:27:11.85] spk_1:
was that board member

[00:27:57.54] spk_2:
present on the call? Yeah, everyone was still the call. And I listened to the victim was on the call, I was on the call and I um got off that call and I called each board member and said, you know and I also sit on a number of boards myself. So I do know how bored when you should be run not to mention that we teach that at task and we teach kids how to run a meeting. And um and I called each board member and I said, I don’t know what that was but that behavior is completely unacceptable. And I am not going to be part of any organization that treats its members like this. So if you don’t call that that person that you picked on in that meeting right now and apologize, I won’t be back. This is just unacceptable. And I called, oh I called for men and I told them all the same thing and they all called this person and um, and I was like, oh my gosh, I can’t even believe I had to do this. I felt like I was holding my Children right? And then, and then

[00:28:10.55] spk_1:
you have to apologize to, you

[00:30:02.14] spk_2:
have to apologize, but, but you know, you know, privately shamed publicly praised, right? So I then called um a priest who was a friend of mine who had been their principle of all of their high schools and I served on his board and I called him and I said, you know, so Father Bill, I need a little bit of help. I said, payback is a bit much. And uh, and I’ve, you know, coach here at your board for five years and I need you on my mind right now because I need to open a can of pass on this board and I need someone who’s, who’s gonna scare them and you’re the only guy I can think of that’s gonna really scare them. And so he joined the board, Principal, 50 year old boys, but principal right, put them right back in their place. And yeah, right back in their place. And then his first call, which was my second board meeting, he said, oh, Heidi, you have your work cut out for you. I said, why do you think you’re here? And so little by little, it was also try turning over the board and there was no board. Um, they had, there was no, no timeline on board commitments. We board members have been there for 12 years. Like what? So I had to create term limits bylaws had to be updated. Term limits had to be created turning over the board and getting, so the first thing I would tell a new E. D. Or who’s taking over from a founder is create a board that supports you. And at least if nothing else bringing a couple champions on your in your corner, you can’t, you can’t start that battle alone. You’ll never, you’ll never make it. Yeah,

[00:30:03.83] spk_1:
I have to ask, how do you get board members to vote for their own term limits?

[00:30:09.24] spk_2:
Well, we had the violence

[00:30:11.26] spk_1:
brand new. This is a brand new concept to them. What someday we have to leave the board.

[00:30:16.45] spk_2:
You’re, you’re, you’re

[00:30:18.57] spk_1:
as radical as, as

[00:30:27.34] spk_2:
everybody said. Yeah. Let me tell you a troublemaker. As we thought you were, there was some very unhappy people. There were some very unhappy people, but the people that had sat on other boards and that had a lot of board experience. Um, you know, I woke up and said, this is the right thing for the organization. Father Bill.

[00:30:42.36] spk_1:
Alright. Allies. You gotta, you have to have some allies.

[00:31:05.04] spk_2:
You have to have allies. You absolutely have to and anyone who does a nonprofit work. It’s all about your team and a community, right? And that’s what we do is we build community and build connection. And if you can’t do that and build that then you’re not supposed to be in this line of work. Right, That’s okay. So that’s I think that’s I think that’s number one, that would be my first.

[00:31:12.54] spk_1:
Alright. And how long did that process take in uh in sort of evolving these folks off the board. I mean did they have to remain for their term

[00:32:55.74] spk_2:
limits? So they took a little minute, it took a little minute I would say we are board was our board was functioning in a and and I do I do like healthy conflict but it was functioning within a year. Um it was not a well oiled machine. I also said to my board um early on I set really clear goals. You know, there’s there’s a lot of great books on turning organizations over and every, most of them will say it takes about five years to you know, turn an organization around two to flip an organization to get it running. And so I kind of said to the board, don’t Rome was not built in a day and I need you to know this is going to take time and you know I inherited a database with 17,000 handwritten three by five recipe cards. That was my database really, you can’t make this up index cards and beautiful non penmanship gorgeous. But yeah, her penmanship was exquisite. Beautiful, 34,000 still have them in the storage unit. Uh huh. So, so Rome was not built in a day and I inherited a heart without a skeleton without structure, a huge beating heart with people passionate for this work. Um with zero structure. And so I just said, you know, it’s going to take, it’s going to take five years and like roll up your sleeves and this is going to be, This is gonna be hard, it’s gonna be bumpy, but we’re gonna do this and um, and you know, we’re now eight years, I’m eight years in and we’re celebrating our 40th anniversary, um, this year. And, and we have just had a border treat last weekend, phenomenal, the most amazing group of people, fantastic. And, and all of our board members who sit on a lot of other boards are like, this is the best run meetings, the best run board. Like it’s just, you know, makes me feel really excited when I look back and I have these conversations with you remember where we were and, and, and where we are. So there is hope for anyone listening.

[00:33:46.24] spk_1:
So you want to die, I guess some, some advice to would be, you know, keep that, keep that goal in sight as you’re, as you’re going through these five transitional years. Absolutely. You know, I mean, you know, it’s easy for us to talk about, but you know, you lived it day after day through the board transition. There were probably employee there, there had to be an employee changes. Yeah. You know, that’s a that’s a tough haul for five years. You have to get, you gotta keep your goal in mind. And

[00:34:53.74] spk_2:
and I think setting that timeline for for me and the board, it was it me, it kept me in the race to write, because I said, I’m going to do this in five years and take five years to get this, you know, completely just, you know, running at full speed. And it’s exactly what it was exactly about, right. I mean, certainly things got better and better and better, but um, but I didn’t I think it would be easy to also quit as a new e. D. You know, if I hadn’t said that goal for myself as well, because I said to them, if this is what it’s gonna take. And I knew like, you know, and at five years I got to say, I thought, should I just put a ribbon on, it should put a big bow. But but I’ve just, you know, I I’ve loved it, but I’ve been very, very cognizant, very cognizant. And I almost, um, I don’t want to say I’m aloof um, with my with the kids, but I’m very clear that their job is to love this organization. And and it is not to love me, they it is about loving each other and this work that we do teaching leadership. Um it is not about me, it is not about me, it’s all about the organization.

[00:35:35.84] spk_1:
Alright. Um, the founders, I guess we’re taking a little step back. You know, you talked about founders having a spark, you know, or passion, just make it explicit how spark and passion aren’t sufficient, they’re necessary, but not sufficient for launching a successful company. I mean, a successful business. It’s a nonprofit corporation, but it runs like a business. It’s

[00:36:49.83] spk_2:
a business, it’s a business, why is passion? It’s a business with a horrible business models. We all know, right. A business model that relies on the kindness of others is a hard business model. It’s not the easiest business model, but it works for, You know, 1.6 million of us, we make it work every day, we get up and we do this work. So, um, so it works. I think that, um, what’s fascinating about the hundreds of nonprofit founders I’ve interviewed with charity matters in the past 10 years, is that not one of them, not one of them woke up as a child or said, I’m going to be a nonprofit founder. Not one of them intended for this work to happen. Every single one of them had a moment and something happened. They were on a very different course, every single one of them and something happened. Something dramatic, a catalyst. A really big moment happened to them or someone they loved that forever changed the trajectory of their life and, and in such a big way that they had to stop their career or whatever they were doing and knew they had to do this. And I think that that’s so um admirable and, and so, and that’s where that passion comes from because something happened to

[00:36:55.03] spk_1:
these people would give up their jobs,

[00:38:07.22] spk_2:
give up their job, give up their life, their income, everything. I mean these people are extraordinary. And when you think about it like that, just think about everyone right now as their job, they’re working, they’re paying their bills, they’re feeding their Children and something happens to someone you love something horrible or to you. And and you say, I got to walk away from everything because I need to dedicate my life to this. I mean that’s, that’s pretty remarkable when you think about it. And so to me that’s what makes these people so special and, and and their spark and passion comes from that because almost all of them um are determined if they just help one person who doesn’t have to go through what they went through. If one person doesn’t get breast cancer. If one person isn’t raped, If one person isn’t hungry, if one person isn’t homeless, they all start out with a very pure intention, they just want to make sure that they’re helping one person and before they know it, they have an organization and they’re driving and there’s a lot that goes into being an entrepreneur that a lot of them weren’t prepared for. It didn’t have the skill set and they didn’t and, and they have passion and as you say, that isn’t always enough.

[00:38:18.02] spk_1:
So there’s a big spiking activity, maybe the first six months or year, right? You get family involved, you get friends involved

[00:38:21.36] spk_2:
and

[00:38:26.42] spk_1:
you know, now where do we go? You know, I’ve exhausted my friends and my family, you know, how do I grow this business? And

[00:39:07.42] spk_2:
exactly, and there’s that and there’s usually, if it’s something that happened to someone in their family, their community, the community usually knows about whatever this moment was in the community wants to help, right? Which is the best thing about our country. And as americans, we, we are innate helpers and we always want to help our neighbor. So everyone’s rattling around in those early days because they’re like, I’ll do whatever I can to help. But as that, as that memory lingers, as that moment is behind people, as the passion lingers in the reality of, oh my God, I’ve quit my job and I started this business and I don’t even know what to do. So it’s in, it becomes, It becomes a lot more challenging for these small nonprofit founders. 100%.

[00:39:13.02] spk_1:
And that’s what you hear from the hundreds of people you’ve interviewed

[00:39:16.44] spk_2:
that all of them

[00:39:17.21] spk_1:
are, they are a lot of them in sort of stagnating organizations leading, leading stagnating organizations?

[00:40:19.81] spk_2:
Well, I think I always ask the question I ask every single person I talked to was, you know, what is your biggest challenge? And, and I would say, you know, 85 90% of them would say fundraising, right? Which I know, you know from this is what you talk about every day with, with your guests. Um, but but they don’t have the, they don’t have the skills. They they’re just, they don’t come in with any of this, right? And so it’s, it’s the learning curve is steep. And then there’s just so many control pieces because they’re trying to do everything as all entrepreneurs do try to do everything. They’re wearing too many hats. Um, you know, you think about it there, there’s, they have so many things stacked against them. And the fact that um, that they persevere is, is remarkable because they’re the toughest group. They are not giving up, they’re not gonna give up. They are, they are going to push on, they are going to push on.

[00:40:23.91] spk_1:
Let’s talk some about the service as a leader, a leader in service to the organization.

[00:42:41.50] spk_2:
Well, I think for me, you know, uh, running a leadership organization, which is, which is what I do. We teach. We teach our kids and I think it’s important for all nonprofits to think about this as leaders and every human to think about this as a leader, we teach our kids for things um, that are important in order for you to lead. one. If you’re gonna lead, you have to have a plan and a goal. We talked about that earlier, like mine was that five year goal, you have to have a plan and a goal. You have to be able to communicate that plan on that goal. You know, what’s your mission? What’s your message? How do you communicate to donors to people to friends and neighbors to get them involved? You have to be a mentor. You have to be a lifelong mentor. And I think in nonprofit, bringing your volunteers along, bringing potentially someone in a succession plan that you’re mentoring and underneath you, being a lifelong mentor is critical in leadership because real leaders grow more leaders. Real leaders definitely grow more leaders. So mentoring is a huge part of leadership and a huge part of success for your non profit as well. And then the most important thing we teach our kids and I think that it’s a reminder for all of us is you cannot lead unless you serve and why did we get into this work in the first place? We got into this work in the first place to serve to help people, Something happened. And we wanted to help them, you know, in my case of spiritual care, we had one chaplain for 300,000 Children at Children’s Hospital, Los Angeles and we wanted to provide more chaplains and we were there to serve to make that happen. And that was our mission to provide chaplains of all faiths to this hospital and, and every single day, that’s what we did. And I get up every day knowing that I’m serving thousands of kids that have potential to be the next generation of leaders and and that’s something that I carry on my back every day. I don’t go to bed thinking I didn’t make enough pencils, I go to bed thinking I have thousands of kids and I have a lot of kids that have been, you know, locked up with mask and homeschooled and you know, alienated and disconnected and suffering for mental health and they need to be connected and they need to be connected and learn to lead these kids are going to lead our future. And I go to bed at night thinking about the kids that that need to be able to have this experience. So when we’re running a nonprofit, we need to think about those that were serving every single day because that’s why we do this work, it’s not about us as the founder, it’s not about us and our ego and our brand and our name, it is about the people that we serve. That is why we do this.

[00:43:17.70] spk_1:
Howdy johnson, she’s the creator and founder of Charity Matters, the weekly blog and podcast, which is that talking about founders and their entrepreneurial journeys. It’s at charity hyphen Matters dot com and at charity underscore matters Heidi. Thank you very much. What a pleasure. Thanks for sharing. Thank

[00:43:20.77] spk_2:
you. tony

[00:43:21.47] spk_1:
especially for sharing your own story. Thank you.

[00:43:24.24] spk_2:
You are so welcome

[00:43:48.00] spk_1:
next week. Get off the recruitment merry go round. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Our creative producer is Claire

[00:44:05.00] spk_0:
Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95

[00:44:07.47] spk_1:
go out and be great.