Tag Archives: leadership

Nonprofit Radio for September 21, 2020: Your Leadership Pipeline & True Consultant Love

My Guests:

Dennis Miller: Your Leadership Pipeline

Dennis Miller returns to encourage you to identify and develop future leaders in your nonprofit. He explains what goes into your leadership development plan. He’s president of Dennis C. Miller Associates.

 

 

Loree Lipstein & Tracy Shaw: True Consultant Love

If your leadership pipeline is lackluster, you’ll have to hire outside talent. Our 20NTC panel helps you pick the right match for a great consulting relationship. They’re Loree Lipstein and Tracy Shaw from thread strategies.

Loree Lipstein Tracy Shaw

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:33.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of declare veins if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed today’s show Your leadership pipeline. Dennis Miller returns to encourage you to identify and develop future leaders in your non profit.

[00:00:40.74] spk_0:
He

[00:02:08.74] spk_1:
explains what goes into your leadership development plan. He’s president of Dennis C. Miller Associates and true consultant Love. If your leadership pipeline is lackluster, you’ll have to hire outside talent. Our 20 NTC panel helps you pick the right match for a great consulting relationship. There are Laurie Lips Teen and Tracy Shaw from Thread Strategies. Antonis. Take two. A change to plan giving accelerator response erred by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives, raise more money changed more lives. Tony dot Emma slash dot for a free demo and a free month. I’m very pleased to welcome Dennis Miller back to the show. He is a nationally recognized expert in non profit leadership, executive search, strategic planning and board and leadership performance coaching with more than 35 years experience. Once upon a time, he was president and CEO of Somerset Medical Center and Foundation in New Jersey. Now he’s president of Dennis C. Miller Associates. He’s at Dennis c. Miller dot com. Welcome back then. It’s similar,

[00:02:10.84] spk_0:
All right. Great to be back. It feels like being back home. It’s great.

[00:02:14.60] spk_1:
Back home. Good

[00:02:16.44] spk_0:
a long time. I’ve always, you see since grammar school because distinguished myself

[00:02:20.35] spk_1:
from the that from that comic Dennis.

[00:02:24.23] spk_0:
And I just tell people I’m actually funny today. It’s so that’s right from

[00:02:27.57] spk_1:
the fraud. Yeah, he’s the fraudster. You’re the original. All right. Dennis Charles.

[00:02:32.68] spk_0:
His mother gave him my name. Put it that way.

[00:02:36.04] spk_1:
Yeah, very good. Alright, alright. So leadership are non profits. Not doing a good job bringing up talent from their ranks. What are you seeing, Dennis?

[00:03:07.04] spk_0:
What’s not necessarily that they’re not doing a good job. I just think there’s not a focus that they need tohave here. I mean, I tony, I tell a lot of people that typically today with, you know, Kobe 19 this is the time to do a number of key things. Shopping up your vision, shopping up your board, shopping up your branding flans me. But really, a lot of tension has to be paid to assess your leadership talent from within new organization. I mean, you know this quite well. I’m sure your listeners to is that the thing that makes an organization successful is not the bricks and mortar it’s of people. And we need to invest as much as our in our own people as we possibly can, because there are our future leaders. So it’s really crucial that we take a step up and invest in our leadership development.

[00:03:31.01] spk_1:
How do we distinguish between folks who have leadership potential on dhe? Those who don’t

[00:03:56.64] spk_0:
well, a couple things first and organization really should do is think about what its overall strategic goals or for an organization, and then looking at every position they have in the table of organization as any level of management, whatever one of the conferences that one needs toe have to succeed in that job, particularly if that job becomes available. What we do is that we do an assessment of each leadership person and When I say leadership, I’m not talking about the top level

[00:04:03.53] spk_1:
people. This is not only for CEO. Yeah,

[00:04:48.94] spk_0:
this is for everybody that has a title of supervisor, part time, weekend outreach coordinator. Whatever this is, the leadership of support term for us is the kind of we do an assessment of them to our farm to Alexis. And it really kind of measures core attributes. Um core attributes the things along, the lines of reasoning, ability of people contact their attitude, their sense of urgency will take charge. There’s things like that. They’re competitive. So once you assess their core traits, not court aptitudes core traits, you can then put together a development plan for those core traits and kind of move people on which I’ll happy to explain. But it’s really assessing where someone is and give me a plan of action to develop. So they become for productive and more forceful as a leader going forward.

[00:04:53.54] spk_1:
Do you feel that anybody has leadership potential if they’re if they’re brought along the right way? Or they’re just some folks that are not are not meant to be leaders.

[00:05:03.04] spk_0:
Yeah, Well, listen, you know, there are people I think you can learn to be a leader. I think that I think I learned to be a leader. I think there’s some people that certainly are born probably with certain attributes or genetics that predisposed them towards a leadership position, something sometimes. But I clearly think people can can learn to be a leader and certainly buy things in their environment or things in their life that they have to make choices on. So I think people can develop if they want to. But here’s Brian saying Everybody you have to choose and decide You wanna be a leader And I think there’s a lot of ways of helping people become leadership. But it’s a question, if you wanna, you wanna be a leader. If you wanna be a leader, you wanna be one. Yeah,

[00:05:42.56] spk_1:
all right, that’s true. A lot of folks may not aspire to that. They’re just absolutely don’t know. They don’t want to supervise other people and,

[00:05:49.84] spk_0:
well, you know. And there’s a

[00:05:52.27] spk_1:
place for them as well. Of

[00:05:55.14] spk_0:
course it you and I know that the future and even today I mean we need leadership we need. Teoh is a people business. We’re in and so we need to develop or potential. Those are assets.

[00:06:05.64] spk_1:
Well, I know you chose to be a leader because one of your books is mopping floors to CEO. Yeah, I know you’re you’re chuckling, but that’s your book title.

[00:06:53.64] spk_0:
Yeah. What is it? You know, I I’ve had a successful 35 40 year career, but I started out really difficult challenges. And I did actually my floors when I was, you know, young man and was sort of homeless and went to a very difficult time in life, and and I chose to become a leader, and I ended up becoming a, you know, CEO and had a long term career of 25 years of medical, business and corporate executive and CEO of two hospitals. And I had my own business for 16 years, so I chose to be a leader. Absolutely. But, um, you know, I think that we need to sort of, you know, uh, the issue was also about, um, confidence and developing self confidence to people that they can be leader. And I think you know, most people somewhat lack some level of self conference. Some people, as you know, have too much self confidence and probably not riel, but I think tony to a lot of people. Given the opportunity to experience that chance, I think people will grow with it. I mean, no one gets to be a major league baseball player without starting with Tebow or literally. So. I think that, um, but I just to me is really important. It’s not not something we could do tomorrow. We don’t You could do this without any, almost without any dollar investment. But if we don’t invest in our people and training our people give people a chance to grow and develop. No one stays in a job forever, and it’s really crucial, particularly in any sector. But it’s not public sector, which is really the glue that keeps our communities together through these difficult times. And this is the worst time I can in 100 years, at least for this country, for the world leadership of development. And so what is the what are the benefits? When you tell people that you’ve been selected to be part of a leadership development program, it inspires enthusiasm. The morale goes up, retention goes up. People feel a sense of future

[00:08:11.34] spk_1:
I was just gonna ask you, Do you tell folks that they’re in a leadership pipeline? Leadership will tell someone Way leadership potential in you.

[00:10:00.34] spk_0:
Yeah, I think One of the ways way. Do it. Twofold. One is to start with, just, you know, hopefully everybody has some form of performance evaluation system. So to evaluate people, how they’re performing on those, whatever they might be a those top 20% performers, whatever they have earned the chance to be in sort of. What do you want to call your own organizational, leadership, academy or institute? Whether you have 50 people working with you or 500 people working, too, you want to kind of identify those people based on their performance. Then those people have not made the grade. You could explain to him what you need to do to make the great so you could motivate them to say, Listen, you need to beam or focus on working with others. Well, not just yourself, so you can point out the thing that they need to do to get into that leadership club here. It’s a huge reward to do that, and then obviously there’s a lot of things that one can dio and the types of courses one can take online courses using your own staff as mentors. There’s a whole range of things to focus in on, but clearly there’s a lot of leadership conferences today that we need to use to successfully leader organization. But we didn’t use yesterday, so I’ll give you a couple examples you clearly today more than before, visionary thinking is crucial. Compensate. That has to have, I mean, mission support. Mission focused is crucial but visionary thinking. It’s important relationship building. It’s a simple thing, but clearly how well you can earn people’s trust. Respect your passion for the organization, Emotional intelligence is a huge issue to be able to be able to identify and grow. Used to be I Q. Now it’s like you entrepreneurial spirit, having the ability to understand that today you know most of our funding is not going to come from public sources, and most of our, uh, you know, funding, particularly with Kobe. 19. This the federal government statement cameras. We’re running out of money so don’t dependent on public funding together. But on tomorrow, Spirit Mayor convinced people to invest in your success. That’s it’s fun. You issue of collaboration wth issue of being a motivational leader of vision will be able to be successful succession planner s. So there’s a lot of conferences that people need tohave today and the skills that need to have going forward and not necessarily the skills that led people to success in the past. So today there’s new companies that needed, and we need to encourage people to develop those.

[00:10:47.67] spk_1:
All right, so you can you identify these? I mean, you’re not gonna find somebody who’s got all these competencies? I don’t think, but you’re you want toe identify people who have potential, right? I mean, maybe they they think they think broader, you know, they think market wise. So that gives them a broader a broader perspective. So that’s that’s encouraging on. Maybe they’re on top of that. They work well with others, but you’re not gonna find somebody’s got all these, you know, 68 competencies. Right? But you’re looking for you’re looking for potential in folks, right?

[00:12:29.76] spk_0:
Yeah. Nobody is perfect. Nobody has everything myself included. Clearly what you want to do is focus on where people are at today. So what are their best attributes today and give people enough because there’s thousands and thousands of people every day who are visionary thinkers in our own communities, but give people an opportunity to be exposed to it. So let him explain What? What does it mean to be emotionally intelligent? What does it mean to be able to regulate your own emotions? What does it mean to be able to identify the emotions of others, to make sure that your own emotions are causing, uh, friction within other people? So how do you respond to people’s emotions? So there’s a lot of things one can learn what can learn about governance, what can learn about flan to be what can learn AA lot of things, how to develop goals and follow through and give people an opportunity to it. But if we don’t sort of seed if we don’t seek ways of training, are currently has become better and are potential leaders become even better emerging leaders, we’re gonna be on the show. So we have to focus on as much as we can developing people.

[00:12:32.87] spk_1:
All right, we’ve identified these people, by the way you might hear some background noise. I have some work going on on my deck up above me. So in case you here’s some background sawing or pulling boards up or anything, that’s what’s going on.

[00:12:49.07] spk_0:
It

[00:13:07.64] spk_1:
z unavoidable. So all right, way to identify these people? How do we invest in them in their futures? Or do we? Is it a matter of sending them toe professional development courses? Is it giving them mentors? Is it broadening their responsibilities in the organization? How do we develop these, these folks?

[00:13:45.84] spk_0:
What’s a couple of things and your questions right on the money. So it’s a every organization. Just as you have a strategic plan and you have a business plan and operating budget plan, you should have a leadership development plan. And what does that mean? Just what you said here. So sometimes you wanna be able to, uh, creators and met the ship. So who would The organization would be a good mentor, Somebody else’s to identify your mentors. Mentors and coaches here identify potentially some their courses or topics that one can teach about sort of through a lunch and learn. Uh, there are. We are firm. We have online courses. We have an online course called How to become a high performing, non profit executive leadership team. A CEO’s guide. The organizational success So you could take this course relative very inexpensive, a tw home in your office on your mobile app. And so there’s ability to interact with that. There are certainly a books one take their certainly things on the website. You can think so, But if you wanna let people put somebody in charge of your leadership development for maybe or HR executive, maybe you’re Cielo. But anybody here? So you want to stop. Wish more of a formal leadership development program, just as you would with anything else here, just as you wouldn’t and you’ve developed. You have a development plan, a fundraising. But how do we get more donors dollars? There’s an effort put into that right. You hire someone, you have a program. We have a plan. You might bring an outside consultant. Focus in on your leadership development the same way here. I think that you can clearly think about this. If you’ve been identified as a potential method that makes you feel good. Also, to know that you’ve been recognized as someone who could be a mentor here, So this has a really, really positive feature here. So if you assess people’s talent, you do have to assess people’s talents based upon their performance and again people our farm. We have something called Alexis, which we measure people’s core attributes and things like that, but certainly, um, development program.

[00:16:02.84] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. The world runs on relationships we know this turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists when you wanna be heard because there’s breaking news and you wanna show yourself as a thought leader in your field, those relationships are going to help you get heard because journalists are gonna take your calls because they already know you turn to specializes. In working with nonprofits, they understand the community. One of the partners was an editor at The Chronicle of Philanthropy. They’re at turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to your leadership pipeline with Dennis Miller. Is this a program that’s for individuals? It’s individually tailored or it’s a It’s a leadership or professional development program that is universal for for all all the potential talent we

[00:17:24.24] spk_0:
see, I think as an organization, I think you should have overall organizational, um uh, leadership development plan, just as you would in order overall organization plans. We plan. So overall one. Now, just as you have a plan for annual giving and playing, giving and major gifts and grants things like that and then each person that was that in your employment, each person that’s part of your team should have their own individual sort of plan assessment based upon their own personal. That’s what they need to do. So example here, if they’re assessing, they find that their you know their their reasoning ability as well. They enjoy people contact, but maybe do not take charge. So now you have to find a way to help them build their self conference so they could take charge so each each other, assess each person individually at the same time having any part of the group here. That’s how it works. It’s like coaching sports team. You have a team, you know, whether the Yankees or the Mets or the Dodgers. Whatever. You have a team out there players, but each person is also coach in your position, so that’s how you do it. You

[00:17:24.48] spk_1:
mentioned mentoring could be could be valuable, say a little more about that. I feel like there’s not enough. I feel like it’s not enough attention paid

[00:17:31.90] spk_0:
Thio your your friend or family next, tony. But I think I look at myself here. I mean, telling yourself here, I asked, You know, your listeners, Has anybody ever meant that you have? You had a mentor and I’ve had a number of mentors and they’re just people toe the surrogates and supporters, people that maybe there were role model to you. So someone, you know, that’s that’s probably the best thing if there’s anything that you kind of listen come away from today is is is you know, think about the idea of mentorship just where your organization can. You have people become, you know, become a member.

[00:18:16.94] spk_1:
Let’s let’s talk. Let’s drill down because I’ve had other guests, you know, talk about the value of mentoring. But but and you’ve said you’ve had many mentors, what does it look like? Do you schedule a bi weekly or a monthly? Our together

[00:18:21.86] spk_0:
there’s

[00:18:22.22] spk_1:
there’s some banging going on. By the way, you might hear our radio to my my contractor likes, uh, music of the sixties and seventies.

[00:18:32.57] spk_0:
So outside my office to say,

[00:18:33.76] spk_1:
Okay, you got recycling. All right, well, you might hear some credence. Clearwater Revival. Um, hey, if you can hear his music, that’s the There you go here that there you go, pulling that, pulling those deck boards off. All right. So mentoring the details of mentoring. What? How does it work? Let’s talk about the nuts and bolts of a strong mentoring relationship, like in your own. In your own example,

[00:18:59.84] spk_0:
I It’s an excellent question, I think. A couple of things here. Thanks. You certainly can. And as an individual, be seeking a mentor. So try to identify someone maybe in your and your neighborhood, maybe in your organization, maybe in your church.

[00:19:17.84] spk_1:
All right.

Special Episode: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

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My Guest:

Pratichi Shah: Your Dismantling Racism Journey
Starting with your people, your culture and your leadership, how do you identify, talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit? My guest is Pratichi Shah, founder & CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions.

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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View Full Transcript
Transcript for 496a_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200708.mp3

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[00:01:49.94] spk_0:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism and white privilege. You’re dismantling racism, journey, picking up from our last special episode, starting with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you identify talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your non profit? My guest is pretty sheesha. Founder and CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot studio. It’s a real pleasure to work. Um, welcome. I’m not working. I’m welcoming. I’m welcoming pretty sheesha. She’s an HR strategist and thought leader with 25 years experience in all aspects of talent management. She’s making her face when I say 25 years, Human resource is equity and inclusion and organizational development in the non profit and for profit arenas. She’s founder and CEO of Flourish Talent Management Solutions. The company is at flourish. Tms dot com Prodigy, Welcome to the show.

[00:02:01.84] spk_1:
Thank you so much, tony. I appreciate me here.

[00:02:44.80] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure. Pleasure to have you. Um, and I’d like to jump right in your if you’re ready. Um, absolutely. You know, racism and white privilege most often look very benign on their face. I had a guest explain why use of the word professional in a job description is racist. I had a more recently, I had a guest explain how not listing a salary range in a job description was felt racist to them. So how do we begin to uncover what is inequitable and right under our noses yet not visible on its face?

[00:03:07.84] spk_1:
Yeah, you know it often it starts with listening. I mean, to state state a bit of the obvious. It really does serve listening. It’s understanding for organizations, it’s understanding where we are. Eso it’s listening to the voices that may not have been centered. We’ve become better as organizations and being responsive to staff. I hear that a lot kind of Hey, this is what my staff is telling me. This is what we need to do. But the question is, is, Are you responding to the voices that have possibly been marginalized? Likely that marginalized or oppressed in the past? General responsiveness is not the same as centering the voices that really need to be heard. So it’s first off just understanding where you are as an organization and listening to the people who may have experienced organization in a way that is different than you think.

[00:03:41.67] spk_0:
So when you say general responsiveness is not what not adequate, not what we’re looking for, what do you mean by that?

[00:03:50.11] spk_1:
So a lot of time, the voices that are saying, Hey, something’s wrong or we need to do this or we need to do that are not the voices of those that have been marginalized and oppressed. They tend to be maybe the loudest voices there, speaking maybe from a place of privilege, and that needs to be taken into account. So being responsive. For instance, if the I call it kind of the almond milk issue being responsive to a staff that says in addition to dairy milk for coffee this is back when we’re in fiscal offices. Um, we need almond milk, too. But the question is, is, Are we listening to the voices of those that weren’t able to consume the dairy milk? It’s not a perfect metaphor. It’s not a perfect analogy because that one ignores actual pain, and it just talks about preference. But are we listening to the voices of people that have been impressed who have who have been, who have heard the word professional or professionalism wielded against them as a pad as an obstacle in their path to success in their path to career advancement? Those are the voices that we need to listen to, not the ones who have a preference, for one thing or another.

[00:05:00.05] spk_0:
Okay, let’s be explicit about how we identify who who holds these voices. Who are these people?

[00:05:19.34] spk_1:
It’s people that have have come from. It’s particularly right now when we talk about anti black racism, we need to censure the voices of those from the black community, and that means those who have either maybe not joint, not just not joined our organization for particular reasons, but maybe they have not joined our board. Maybe they have not participated in our programs that maybe they haven’t had the chance to. So it’s really from an organizational perspective, think of it, is understanding what our current state is. So how does your organization move? People up, move people in, move people out. If if we don’t have the voices in the first place because maybe we’re not as welcoming as we should be, then what does the data tell us about who’s coming into our organization, who is leading our organization, who is able to move up into our organization, what our leadership looks like, what our board looks like? So at times the fact that there is an absence of voice is telling in and of itself, and our data needs to be able to explain what is going on so that data needs to be looked at as well.

[00:06:44.14] spk_0:
All right, so we need to very well, good chance we need to look outside our organization. You’re talking about people that we’ve turned down for bored, bored positions turned down for employment. Um, I’m not even going to say turned down for promotion because that would presume that there’s still that that presumes there still in the organization, but I’m talking about very likely going outside the organization. People who don’t work with us who aren’t volunteering ho aren’t supporting us in any way. But we’ve marginalized them with cast them out before they even had a chance to get in.

[00:06:47.88] spk_1:
Potentially. Yeah, have been actually, probably probably there is something that they have not found palatable or appealing about working with us or being a sensor or being off to your point of volunteer. So we need we need to look at why that’s happening.

[00:07:28.04] spk_0:
Okay, I’ve got it. I got to drill down even further. How are we going toe? Identify these people within. Within our organization as it is. How are we gonna figure out which people these are that we’ve marginalized these voices of color? Um, over the just like in the past five years. What have we if we’ve done this, how do we identify the people? We’ve done it too.

[00:08:44.48] spk_1:
Yeah, you know, it really is a complicated question. It will differ my organization, right? It differs by what your subsector is. How things slow within a subsector the size of the organization. A really good place to start is understanding who has turned us down. Why have people left? So take a look at exit interviews. Even if you’re not doing exit interviews. We know that there is not always a nature, our presence and a lot of our organizations. If there aren’t formal exit interviews first, well, it’s my time for those because we need to understand why people are leaving. But if if there isn’t a formally h your presence, what do we know about the circumstances under which someone left organization or said no to a job offer or said no to a board, position or volunteer? It’s also important to ask, expanding our definition of stakeholder groups, engaging with all of our stakeholder groups as as broadly defined, us possible. And with in those groups understanding, are we reaching out to a diverse audience to say, Why would you engage with us? Why would you not engage with us in any of those roles? So, yeah, it’s gonna be a little bit harder to understand the people who are not there because they’re not there. Okay.

[00:10:02.96] spk_0:
All right, so All right. Um, we go through this exercise and and we identify. We’ve identified a dozen people. They’re not. They’re not currently connected to us. And ah, maybe that they have had a bad experience with us. Yeah, they may have turned us down for employment because they got offered more money somewhere else that could that in itself could be that itself. Could be not something other than benign. Um, but let’s say they moved out of the state, you know, they were they were thinking about. So So in some cases, they may not have a bad have had a bad experience with us, but in but in lots of cases, they may have. They may have turned down that board position because they start the current composition of the board. And they didn’t feel they felt like, maybe being offered, you know, a token slot or whatever. Whatever it might be, I’m just I’m just suggesting that some of the some of the feelings toward the organization might not be negative, but some might very well be negative of these dozen people we’ve identified in all these different stakeholder potential stakeholder roles that that they could have had what do we reach out to them and say way? Get them to join a conversation with an organization that they may feel, uh, unwelcoming.

[00:10:10.53] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s a great question, and I think right now, especially we tread carefully. Weigh tried carefully, and we honor the fact that they, in fact, might be getting that same question from many other other organizations friends, colleagues, family members in which people want to understand something. What we’re seeking to do is not be educated on the overall picture of white privilege, weight supremacy, off dominant narrative and dominant culture that’s on us. That’s on all of us individually to understand that that is not the men that is not up to the member. It was a press society started to tell us that. Great. So what they What we want to understand is kind of What did you experience with our organization? What was the good? What was that? And first of all, do you even want to engage with us? Is this not a good time to do that? Because you’re already exhausted, I said to ah, calling recently, You know, we can’t even understand the reality of what it’s like to live the re it to live that reality. And for many to leave the charge right because they’re also showing leadership in the movement. So, Teoh, we can’t even understand what those layers of existence or like, So we think it’s treading very carefully. And should we have the ability to engage with someone because they have the space, the energy, the desire, then I think it’s understanding and asking kind of what’s going on for us. What? Where did you find us? Either Not a feeling or Where did you Why did you not want to work with us in whatever capacity we were asking? And it’s asking that question.

[00:11:40.34] spk_0:
Okay, well, that’s further down, right? I’m I’m just trying to get to, like, what’s the initial email invitation look like?

[00:11:46.71] spk_1:
It depends on the organization. Eventually organization. It depends on the relationship. I wouldn’t presume to give words to that, to be honest with you, because because I think it also depends on the person that you’re asking. I don’t want toe offer kind of a link. It was on December inadvertently token ice people by saying, Oh, of course, we’re gonna want toe engage with us. So I really think it’s dependent on the situation,

[00:12:10.64] spk_0:
okay, and and what do you inviting them to do with you? Have a conversation. Share your experience with us? Is it?

[00:13:12.23] spk_1:
Yes, essentially. I mean, that’s what it boils down to, but again, it really depends on where the organization is, right? So this is your data collection moment. This is information collection. Where else are you collecting information? What what else do you know? What other steps have you taken to begin that educational process? Because there’s there’s kind of a dual purpose here, right? Is understanding who we are in where we have contributed to search for a race of them, to pretend to a culture that does not support differing viewpoints, differing populations that is in some ways upholding white supremacy, or is completely holding, upholding white supremacy and its culture. There’s that general education of understanding all of that. And then there’s understanding what our organization’s role is right, so it’s both and eso. It’s really highly dependent upon. Where is the organization case? Warez You’ve talked. Teoh, the head of equity in the centre, describes a cycle that is brilliant around awake to woke to work. Where are you in that cycle? Are you? Where are you on a where you in vain? Pluralistic, Where you and being inclusive. All of those things depend on what you’ll ask and how you’ll reach out. And if you even should reach out there, maybe work that is to be done internally before that reach out can happen again. Just being considerate and sensitive of those who are willing to start, you

[00:13:46.24] spk_0:
know? Yeah. Okay. Was our guest for the last most recent special episode on this exact same subject. Thank you.

[00:13:53.53] spk_1:
Yet the organization is doing, and it has been since its inception, has been doing incredible work. A is leading that work on dhe. Both her warrants always contain wisdom, and the products that they’ve put out are extraordinary.

[00:14:25.14] spk_0:
How about in your work? Are you facilitating the kinds of conversations in your practice that you and I are talking about right now? Do you bring these outside folks in Sometimes too. Teoh have these conversations

[00:14:27.53] spk_1:
sometimes? Yes. Sometimes again, being highly respectful of if they didn’t want to engage with us, Do they even want to talk to us right now? My work really is around having an organization understand where it is right now. So what is its current state. What is the desire in future state? Right, So we know that we want to be a racially inclusive, racially equitable organization. Likely that’s already been defined. But what does that mean for us is an organization if it means solely in numbers piece rate, like we want to be more divorces aboard. Okay, that’s fine. But beyond that, how we make ourselves have a board culture that is appealing to those people that we want to bring in to work with us. So it’s kind of defining with current state and understanding current state to finding future state and then developing the strategy to get there.

[00:15:44.34] spk_0:
OK, now you and I were talking about you said you were still data gathering. So we’re still defining the current culture as it exists. Right? Okay. Okay. And your work, you You centered around people, culture and leadership. Can we focus on leadership? I feel like everything trickles down from there. Very chill. No, I don’t know. Are we okay? Are you okay? Starting with a leadership conversation or you’d rather start somewhere else?

[00:15:51.24] spk_1:
No, we can We can start that. Fine.

[00:16:04.54] spk_0:
Okay. Um So what? What is it? We’re looking for leaders of our listeners of small and mid sized nonprofits to to commit you.

[00:16:10.34] spk_1:
I think it’s first of all committing to their own learning and and not relying on communities of color to provide that learning right again, going back to what we said earlier. It’s not relying on those who have been harmed or a present to provide. The learning is the first of all. It’s an individual attorney. That’s a given. Okay,

[00:17:09.24] spk_0:
I like toe things like people. I like action steps. So we’re talking about our individual journey, our own learning. I mean, I’ve been doing some of this recently by watching YouTube watching folks on YouTube. Of course, now, right now, I can’t remember names of people, but no Eddie Glaude eso Eddie Glaude is a commentator on MSNBC. He’s just written just released this last week. Ah, biography. I am not so much a biography of James Baldwin, but but an explanation of Baldwin’s journey around racism. Um, so that’s one example of, you know who have been listening to. So we’re talking about educating the learning from thought leaders around yeah, revealed structures with reading books, listening to podcasts

[00:17:44.20] spk_1:
absolutely around its around structures. But it’s also understanding things that we do all the time and organizations and how I, as a leader, might eventually those right. So it’s sometimes the use of language to your point about the use of the word professional language tends to create our realities so another language will build a bridge or not. So how do we use our language? How do we use our descriptors? How do I show up as a leader in my own kind of inclusion or not? So I think it is absolutely that it is looking at thought leaders around things like structural racism around the use of language around people’s individual experiences to get that insight and depth. Because it’s not just a kn intellectual exercise. This is emotional to and therefore has to have emotional residents.

[00:18:47.24] spk_0:
Okay, thank you for letting me dive deeper into a personal your own personal journey, your own personal education, fact finding and and introspection. You’re talking about something, you know. And it zzz No, no revelation. This is It’s difficult of It’s painful. You know, you you’re very likely uncovering how you offended someone. Uh uh How you offended? Ah, group. Um, if you were speaking in public and something comes to mind or how you offended someone in meetings or, you know, multiplied, I don’t know how many times I mean, this introspection is likely painful.

[00:18:50.74] spk_1:
Likely? Likely. Yeah, more often. More often than not, I can’t. I can’t really envision it. Not at some level. They painful,

[00:19:08.88] spk_0:
but you’ve caused pain. You know that there’s a recognition there. Yeah, painful for you. But let’s consider the pain of person or the group that you, uh I don’t know, offended, stereotyped. I mean, put off whatever it is you’re

[00:19:31.28] spk_1:
that’s right. And that that’s why the work. As much as I know, you know, just some degree, people want this to be work that could be kind of project managed, if you will. Or it could be put into a process or a series of best practices arrangements to some degree, not very much, but to some degree, yes, absolutely. The sum of a little bit of that can happen. But that in and of itself is a bit of the dominant narrative, right. That, and of itself, is kind of at that centering white culture. So I think What we need to understand is this is not just going to be again, Teoh. Sorry to be redundant, but it’s not just gonna be intellectual. The fact that pain has been caused dictates that this be emotionally owned as well. It can’t be on life. It can’t be just intellectually owned with a project plan that I keep over here on a chalkboard or something like that.

[00:20:18.34] spk_0:
Emotionally owned. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Um, all right. So I made you die aggressive. Deeper. What else Rails you want toe? Tell us about leadership’s commitment on dhe. The importance of leadership. Commitment?

[00:22:22.54] spk_1:
Yes. So? So it needs to be explicit. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be baked into the leadership. Whatever leadership structure of the organisation has, it needs to be an ongoing piece of that leadership. So it’s not a Hey, let’s touch face on our quote inclusion initiative. If it’s an initiative, first of all, that’s not really doing the work. And he went, but it’s not something that lives separately from ourselves. Let’s have HR kind of check in on this or let’s have the operations person checking on this, but that’s not what this is about. It’s really it’s authentically being owned by leadership to say, Yeah, I know it’s gonna be painful. And in looking at our organization, we’re gonna need to understand why our leadership is remarkably homogeneous, which, in the case of many nonprofits, it is. If you take a look at building movement project and the unbelievably great work that they’ve done twice now, they just put out an update to their leadership, work around how people moves in sector or don’t and how people, communities of color and people of color are represented in our leadership. We can begin to understand that by and large, they’re they’re not on the why. That is a no oversimplification in some way. So I would encourage people to go to building movement projects, went site and check out their work. But you know what? Why are we so homogeneous? Why is there a board so homogeneous? It’s It’s also unpacking and uncovering that. So, to your point earlier about you know how we look at people and how they move through the organization. This is where you look at who is press right? Not just who’s not with us, but who is with us? How do people get promoted? How does that system work? Just any. It does everyone have the same information? Is it a case of unwritten rules? Is it a case of some people move up because they’re similar? Or they have have 10 years of experience, which is something that we like to say. How do you get 10 years of experience if you have not been given those chances to begin with? So is there life experience that weaken that we can begin to integrate in our conversations, these life experiences equally valuable are we putting too much of a premium on higher education, education and its formal kind of traditional form. Are we putting too much of, ah, of an emphasis on pedigree of other kinds of those? Those are the things that ultimately keep people out. So taking a look at leadership and having leadership commitment ultimately means looking at all of those things. There’s an overlap and how we look at leadership or people and or your organizational culture.

[00:23:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, of course, this is a it’s a continuum or

[00:23:04.18] spk_1:
absolutely, absolutely, and the areas bleed into each other.

[00:23:25.68] spk_0:
Yeah, of course, yeah, um, you know, I subsumed in all this. I guess it’s OK for leaders to say I don’t know where the where the journey is going. I don’t know what we’re going to uncover, but I’m committed to having this journey and leading it and right, I mean supporting it. But I don’t know what we’re gonna find.

[00:23:32.52] spk_1:
Right, Right? Right. And that, in and of itself can be uncomfortable for a lot of people. And that’s the That’s the kind of discomfort we need to get okay with.

[00:24:03.54] spk_0:
Yeah, all right. Yeah. No, I had I had a guest explain that this is not as you were alluding to, uh, is not the kind of thing that we’re gonna have a weekly meeting and will be these outcomes at the end of every meeting. Then we have this list of activities and you know, the you know, it’s how come it’s not like that. How come we can’t do it like that? Yeah, because

[00:24:07.08] spk_1:
we’re dealing with hundreds and hundreds of years of history, and it’s because we haven’t been inclusive in the ways that we do things and we haven’t allowed whole Selves to show up that it is, um, it’s It’s complicated and it’s messy because it’s human.

[00:24:21.44] spk_0:
All right, so it’s not gonna be, is simple. Is our budget meetings

[00:24:28.54] spk_1:
right? Absolutely kind of hard.

[00:24:29.50] spk_0:
All right, we’re gonna have an outcome it every every juncture at every step or every week or every month. Yeah,

[00:24:35.03] spk_1:
that’s right. That’s right. And if we expect it to go that way, we are likely going to give ourselves excuses not to press on.

[00:24:44.44] spk_0:
All right, so that’s what it’s not. What what does it look like?

[00:26:08.14] spk_1:
So it absolutely looks different for every organisation. It absolutely looks different for over organization. And that’s why it’s so critical to understand, kind of. Where are we right now? Where are we? As for us, all of the components of our organization, Right? So, Roland again, Volunteer’s board staff culture, You said, you know, we were talking about people, organization and leadership, which is obviously a lot of my work. It is getting underneath all of those kinds of things to say. So who experiences our culture? How eso we do engagement surveys, right? A lot of times we do engagement employee surveys, that kind of thing. Are we looking at those dis Agra and adjust aggregated way. Are we asking different populations to identify themselves? And are we looking at what the experiences are by population? Are we asking explicit questions around whether or not you feel like you can be yourself in this organization? Whether you can provide defending opinions whether you feel comfortable approaching your boss will be back whether you feel comfortable volunteering for particular work, whether you feel like you understand what a promotion or performance management processes, whether you get you the support that you need or to what extent you get support that you need either from colleagues bus leadership, etcetera. So it’s looking at all of those things and then understanding all of a being experienced differently by different communities within our organization.

[00:26:14.24] spk_0:
You mentioned dis aggregating. That’s where the data is not helpful, right?

[00:26:20.02] spk_1:
That is where we look at the data in terms of populations.

[00:26:28.43] spk_0:
00 Aggregate. Of course, aggregating You’re stuck with a lackluster host now, of course. Yes, aggregate

[00:26:32.47] spk_1:
early in the week.

[00:26:48.84] spk_0:
Thank you. You couldn’t say early in the day. But thank you for being gracious. Okay? Yes, we we we want Teoh disaggregate. Of course um, and look by population and I guess, cut a different way. I mean, depending on the size of the organization, um, age race, uh,

[00:27:38.81] spk_1:
raises ethnicity of physical ability, orientation. All of those need to be in the mix gender as well, including gender fluidity. So really looking at all of our populations and then understanding, you know, for these particular questions, is there a difference and how people experience or organization we we know Then what we do know is that if there is a difference that there is a difference, we don’t know that there is cause ality unless there unless you’ve asked questions that might begin to illuminate that right. But there’s there’s always that difference between correlation and cause ality. And then what you want to do is get underneath that to understand why the experience might be different and why it might change along lines of gender or race or ethnicity or orientation or physical ability.

[00:27:45.14] spk_0:
Way wandered, you know, But that’s that’s fine.

[00:27:49.50] spk_1:
People in organizations are

[00:27:57.94] spk_0:
people, culture and leadership all coming together. Where where do you want to go? I mean, I would like to talk about people, culture and leadership What’s a good? It’s a good next one.

[00:28:42.74] spk_1:
Yes, well, so so this is what you’re doing, right? Is your collecting information and all of those three areas right and want it. So a couple of things that I would add to that is, when you look at people, you’re looking at their experiences. When you look at leadership, you’re looking at commitment, makeup, structure, access, all of those kinds of things. When you’re looking at culture, you’re looking at how people experience the culture, right? And so what? What is happening? What’s not happening? What state it out loud? What’s not stated out loud. What are the unwritten rules? There is also the peace are that that forms all of these things, which is operational systems, right? So things like performance management, things like where people may sit back when we were in physical offices at having access to technology. All of those kinds of things particularly important now that we’re not in physical offices. So just everyone have access to the technology and information necessary to do their job to do their jobs to do their work. So it is looking also at your operational side and saying How do we live our operational life? How do how two people experience it? Who do we engage with to provide service is for operations. How do we provide the service is, if you will, for lack of better term to our employees. So it’s also looking at that because operations ultimately permeates organizational culture, people and leadership, right, because it kind of sustains all of that. So taking a look at that, too, and finally, I would suggest again, as part of this and as a wraparound, is what is the internal external alignment, right? So I often hear people say, Hey, you know what? This is the subsector we work in people with think that we’re really equitable, but internally, we are living a different life than what we’re putting out to our stakeholders in our constituencies externally. So what is what is our external life, and how does that need to inform our internal world? It’s not unusual for me to hear that the external life, the way we engage with stakeholders or the way we put out program programmatic work is actually may be further along. To the extent that this is considered to be a continuum. It’s further along than the way that we’re living our life internally.

[00:30:19.33] spk_0:
Dishonesty there this disconnected It

[00:30:24.39] spk_1:
is a disconnect for sure. And possibly yes, dishonesty and hip hop made even hypocrisy.

[00:30:35.76] spk_0:
Yeah, All right, but again. All right, so that now we’re looking like this is organizational introspection. There’s individual learning and introspection. Now we’re at the organizational level, right? Being honest with our with our culture and our messaging.

[00:31:13.64] spk_1:
Right? Right. And so what I tried to dio is to help organizations kind of look at those things and decide how we might have all given the future that we’ve set our sights on and given some of the principles that we’ve laid out, how do we kind of get there? How do we How do we have all of our systems had a way of all of our people practices? How do we have all of our culture? So hence the need to look at all of these things that centered around people, culture and leadership. What about

[00:31:33.64] spk_0:
the use of a professional? A facilitator? Because, Well, first of all, there’s a body of expertise that someone like you brings, uh, but also help with these difficult conversations. Talk about the value of having an Anek Spurt facilitator.

[00:32:22.73] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely So So you know, I think I think there’s always a level of objectivity and kind of in inside Look by an outsider that you that you benefit from. We go to experts for everything from you know or health to the extent that we have access to those experts, which is a whole different conversation on race and oppression. We we want external voice. What I would say is it’s a likely not going to be the same expert or the same facilitator. And I say expert in quotes for everything. So, for instance, I am not the voice to be centered on educating an organization around structural racism. I don’t think on the right voice to be centered. I would rather send your voices like those at, um at race forward at equity in the centre at those who have lived the results of 400 years of oppression. So you might want to call in someone for that discussion for that education. There are people that are better and more steeped in that and whose voices should absolutely be centered for that. You might want to call in a voice for White I’ll ally ship because there is some specifics around that that we need to talk about without kind of centering white races.

[00:32:53.93] spk_0:
I’m sorry, White ally ship. Yeah. What is that? So

[00:34:04.64] spk_1:
if we think about the or the organization right and are kind of culture and are people who who won staff sees themselves as an ally and how can they be good? How come Apple boy people be good allies, right? And how do how do we further and embed that in the culture on dhe? Then finally, So keeping that in mind that there are gonna be different experts or different facilitators for different things, you know who was going to be the person in my case, this actually might be May is to help us evolve our culture and our systems so that we can be more equitable and take a look at that. Who’s gonna provide the training because their skills necessary rightto have these conversations. There are foundational communication skills. There is the ability to give feedback. There is the ability to communicate across cultures across genders across across groups. There, his ability to be collaborative. So So also strengthening those skills while we continue to look at those things. But to think that all of this help is going to come from one source is not ideal and likely it’s even inappropriate because everyone can’t be everything. I don’t try to be the voices that I can’t be. It’s inappropriate for me to do that.

[00:34:18.84] spk_0:
What? Um, what else do you want? Oh, what do you want to talk about? Given the level where that we’re at, we’re trying to help small and midsize nonprofits inaugurate a journey around racism and white privilege.

[00:34:33.95] spk_1:
Yeah, E Look, first of all, I hear a lot of organizations say, like, what is the access point? Like, What do I get started doing? We put out a statement. Um, in some cases, we are experiencing some dissonance between the statement that we put out or the problematic work that we dio and the way that we’re living internally. So it is really understanding. Kind of. Where are we now? Through all of the ways that we’ve been talking about over the last several minutes, where we now what is it that we’re not doing that we should be doing? What is it that we need to be doing? How do we define for us if we have an equitable culture? If we’re living racial equity, what does that look like for us? Um, how does that affect our programmatic work? How does that affect our operations? Everything from our finances to our people processes to when we’re back in an office, even our physical set up. How how does that affect us? And how would we define that future state? So it’s understanding what is my current state? What is my future state and then understanding how we get there and it’s likely gonna be a long all of the areas that we said right? So individual journeys, some group and individual skill building some evolution of our systems and some understanding of kind of how we can support each other and support ourselves for those that are that affiliate with a particular group, Um and then kind of moving us along to that place of where we want to be. So it is. It is understanding where you are at that determines what your access point iss. But I would say if you if you have done the work of putting out the statement, then there. Then look for look for where you’re not living that statement internally.

[00:36:26.93] spk_0:
That sounds like a very good place to yeah, to start your search for for an access point because it’s so recent. Your organization’s probably said something in the past 56 weeks, absolutely close. Are you hearing to that to that statement?

[00:36:46.33] spk_1:
Exactly. And and we are incredibly, I would say important the use of the term, but almost fortunate that so many thought leaders have been kind and generous enough to share with us their thoughts on this moment. So not just within the sector, but all the way across our society. So many people have taken the time and the patients and the generosity amidst everything else that they’re living through. They have agreed to share their thoughts, their leadership, their expertise with us. So there is a ton of knowledge out there right at our fingertips, and that’s a that’s another really great place to start and says center the voices that most need to be heard

[00:37:18.87] spk_0:
at the same time. You know, we are seeing beginnings of change institutions from Princeton University to the state of Mississippi,

[00:37:40.47] spk_1:
right? Absolutely. Teoh. Hopefully, you know, the unnamed Washington football team. And to not far and places where we I didn’t know that change necessarily was possible. But we we are seeing change. And the important thing is is to not be complacent about that change,

[00:38:44.72] spk_0:
right? And not and also recognize, that it’s just a beginning, you know, removing Confederate statues, um, the room taking old glory off the Mississippi flag. These are just beginnings, but but I think worth worth noting, and they worth recognizing and celebrating because the state of Mississippi is a big institution and it’s been wrestling with this for I don’t know if they’ve been wrestling for centuries, but that flag has been there for that. Just out long 18. Some things, I think, is when that flag was developed. So it’s been a long it’s been a long time coming. So, recognizing it for what it is celebrating it, you know, to the extent that yeah, to the extent it represents the change getting up the beginning of change. All right. Um, well, you know, for teaching What else? What else? What else do you want to share with folks at this. You know, at this stage,

[00:39:19.56] spk_1:
you know, I think I think the main thing is, um didn’t dig it. We need to dig in on this. We need to dig in on this because in the same way that we have been living this society really societally for so long. Or organizations many times are microcosms of society. So if we think as an organization were exempt or that were already there, we’ve arrived at a post racial culture. That’s not the case. That’s just not the case. So where do you want to get it? Where do you want it again? Chances are good. You are doing some version of looking at issues within your organization, whether it’s your annual survey, if you do it annually, or whatever in which you can use that information to begin this journey so diggin from where you are. It’s one of those things that if you’re waiting, if you’re reading for kind of the exact right time or further analysis to begin the journey again, it’s not. It’s not based solely on analysis. There is a P. There is certainly information. There’s data that needs to be understood. But if We’re waiting for endless analysis Toe happen or Teoh kind of point us to the right time. That’s not going to happen. The intellectualism needs to be there. But again, as we said in the path as we said a few times during the course for conversation, this is about emotional residents in an emotional ownership and a moral obligation. So diggin, diggin wherever you are right now.

[00:40:46.20] spk_0:
What if I’m trying within my organization and I’m not the leader, not even second or third tier management or something, you know, How do I elevate the conversation? Uh, I presume it helps to have allies. What if What if I’m meeting a resistance from the people who are really in leadership?

[00:41:16.68] spk_1:
I think Look for the places where the remains, not the resistance, Right? So look within the organization. If there is resistance at a particular level, then you know who do you have access to in the organization where there isn’t that? I think I think starting out not assuming that you have solutions. If you have expertise in this area, if you have lived through the oppression as a member of a community that has lived through the impression, particularly the black community. I think you’re coming from one place if you are. If you are not in that community and saying that you have expertise, I think you have to be a little bit more circumspect about that and introspective about what you can offer in this vein on. And I think I think we want to look for the places where there is some traction. I think in most organizations it’s not unusual to be getting the question right now.

[00:41:50.41] spk_0:
And what is the I don’t want to call it outcome. What’s what look in the future look like for our organization? If we do embark on this long journey?

[00:42:02.14] spk_1:
Yeah, cultures that are equitable, in which people can show up as their whole Selves, in which there is not only one wrote right way to do things, which tends to be a very kind of white, dominant, Western culture, linear, sequential way of of managing work, of managing communications, et cetera, but that in fact, work can be a purged in a number of different ways, and that solutions can be approached in a number of different ways. People get to show up and give their all to these missions that we all feel very Narron dear. And so they are able, they’re empowered. They are able they are celebrated without sticking to a set of preconceived guidelines or preconceived, unwritten or written rules that don’t serve us anymore. Anyway,

[00:42:59.20] spk_0:
When you started to answer that, I saw your face. Lighten up. He your You know, it was a smile. It just looks like you’re faced untended. Not that you’re nervous. You’re facing hard to answer the where we could be.

[00:43:03.60] spk_1:
Who doesn’t like to imagine that future?

[00:43:09.30] spk_0:
Yeah, it was It was palpable. All right. Are you comfortable leaving it

[00:43:12.77] spk_1:
there? I think so. I think that what if we not covered that we need to cover for your listeners?

[00:43:18.70] spk_0:
Your know that better than I a place there at getting started.

[00:43:24.11] spk_1:
That’s fair. Look, you know what this is? This is the future that is written with many voices. And and while I think I can be helpful, I don’t presume to be the voice that has all the answers. I definitively don’t. I definitively don’t. And so what we have not covered is actually probably not known to me. But I dare say someone. Someone out there doesn’t know that. And they will likely be putting their voice up, which is exactly what we want.

[00:43:50.07] spk_0:
Yes, we will be bringing other voices as well. All right.

[00:43:53.06] spk_1:
No doubt. Yeah.

[00:43:54.31] spk_0:
Petition Shaw. She’s founder and CEO of Flourished Talent Management Solutions. And the company is at flourish tms dot com Petitti. Thank you so much. Thank you very, very much,

[00:44:13.89] spk_1:
tony. Thank you. Thank you for opening up this space and having the conversation. Ah,

[00:45:04.76] spk_0:
pleasure. It’s a responsibility and, uh, happy toe. Live up to it. Try trying. Were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain software, The Nolly Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant her mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our creative producer was glad Meyer, huh? Shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide. This music is by Scots. Many thanks to Susan and Mark for helping you get this special episode out quickly with me next time this week for non profit radio, big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for May 15, 2020: Leadership & Donor Advised Funds

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Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward: Leadership
In two recent shows, guests agreed that Amy Sample Ward represents a shining example of vulnerable leadership. So who better to speak to about leadership—whether in a crisis or not? She’s CEO of NTEN and our technology and social media contributor.

 

Maria Semple

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[00:00:11.14] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit

[00:00:16.08] spk_2:
ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly

[00:02:03.74] spk_1:
named host. I’m continuing with a dizzy production, audacity and zoom. No studio. I don’t know if you can hear that ocean. I hear the ocean. It’s not digital. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of ridiculous senioritis if you unnerved me with the idea that you missed today’s show leadership. In two recent shows, my guests agreed that Amy Sample Ward represents a shining example of vulnerable leadership. So who better to speak to about leadership, whether in a crisis or not? Then Amy Sample Ward. She’s CEO of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor and donor advised funds. Let’s relieve the misery of donor advised funds. There may be a lot you cannot find, but you’re not helpless. Maria Simple has advice, and resource is for finding and reaching the funds. She’s our prospect research contributor and the Prospect Finder. Last week I did say we’d have a 20 TC panel with Maria. Leadership just felt more timely on tony steak, too. Take 1/3 breath were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is leadership with Amy Sample

[00:02:13.94] spk_2:
Ward. It’s always a pleasure to welcome you, Amy Sample Ward. And there you are. This is not like you have to wait until I say, you know, there you are. You’re already here. You’re here,

[00:02:15.53] spk_4:
you know? And I get to see you, you know, normally shows or like, over the phone or whatever, So yeah, I can see you. Um, thank you for such a kind intro.

[00:02:33.34] spk_2:
Love it, actually, yes. That, uh, uh let me also remind people that, uh, you your you’re you blogged at, uh you still blogging any sample ward dot or

[00:02:44.50] spk_4:
ge? I mean, I do have the website, but normally, if I’m writing something that’s either for in 10 or yeah,

[00:02:48.53] spk_2:
I’ll scratch that no more. Aimee Semple ward dot org’s is still at a me R s board. Always very good. Okay,

[00:02:52.40] spk_4:
Yes. Happy to tony.

[00:03:04.54] spk_2:
So? So Yes. Two different panels, at least one of which is a special episode. So people have already heard it. Maybe both of them. But, um, you, Ah, I brought you up, actually, as an example of vulnerable leadership. And the panels agreed immediately. So it wasn’t just wasn’t only me saying it.

[00:03:13.90] spk_1:
And then

[00:03:14.30] spk_4:
we’ll have to go find those people. Send them in. Thank you. Guessed

[00:03:32.64] spk_2:
it was about one is about leadership. And the other one was about team care. I think I’m pretty sure those were the two. So that was the leadership. One was leadership number one for our special episodes. But here we are, the ship to so vulnerable leadership. What does that does that mean to you?

[00:04:00.34] spk_4:
Um, you know, it’s not necessarily a phrase that I would use because I guess maybe the phrase I would use and what that term means to me is just authentic leadership. You know, I think you can’t be authentic if you aren’t being all sides of your emotions. You know, if there’s only like, 11 version of how you are, then I don’t think it creates a lot of space for the folks that work with you, whether inside the organization or outside to feel like they’re allowed to have multiple emotions or thoughts. You know, if you’re kind of setting the precedent, that that’s the way you expect others to be When when you hold yourself to that,

[00:04:22.44] spk_2:
Okay. Authentic, I think.

[00:04:24.15] spk_4:
Yeah. I mean, we can see we can use vulnerable. That’s just, you know, maybe not the language that I think of myself.

[00:04:32.94] spk_2:
Okay, Um, authentic ce Fine. Yeah, but it z it suggests Ah, on honesty on open. Right. Ah, collaboration.

[00:04:52.04] spk_4:
Totally. And I don’t think, you know, I love that you use the word collaboration because that’s what I think about. A lot is like, if you really collaborating with other folks, you’re all kind of joining unequal space, right? To share ideas or talker. Come up with whatever the work is your your collaborating on and the same would be true in leadership and tough times, right? Like you have to really meet and create a space where everyone can have all those emotions and work through it together. Otherwise, you aren’t really in partnership with each other. Right? You are. You’re somehow separate from everyone.

[00:05:36.94] spk_2:
Yeah, right now there are There are leaders who are not of this ilk. They would say that, you know, emotions, emotions in the workplace. Um, they don’t that they really don’t belong. You obviously

[00:06:57.64] spk_4:
don’t agree with that. You you know, I think if you don’t have, if you don’t have the kind of emotional intelligence Teoh experience those emotions identify those emotions, understand where they’re coming from and where they’re trying Teoh lead you or what they’re telling you about how you’re taking an information, then you’re not really using all the tools that nature has given you, right? I mean, a big part of being a leader is developing a really strong gut, right? Being able to like, go do your research but also have, like, you know, in the moment where things should go right, like that’s I always think a great sign of someone that, um has strong leadership, regardless of the job title, is that they’ve developed a really strong gut. And the way you do that is 100% pure emotion. By understanding like how your body is reacting in the moment, Teoh an idea or two. A conflict and understanding. Not just best. Oh, I’m having this emotion. But I know why I’m having this emotion. I know where it’s leading me. I know what my gut is telling me to do right now, you know? So if you feel like emotions aren’t welcome or not professional or shouldn’t be in your workplace, I really worry that that has hampered the ability for both you and your staff toe like truly use all their skills

[00:07:03.74] spk_2:
and then but in the same but same talking, you have to be empathic right t to recognize the emotions in others through, um, official expressions, body language, tone. Right there. I start watering, were smiling. Let’s not keep it all negative. You right there smiling there. Um, so you have to see the emotion. I

[00:07:26.04] spk_4:
think that’s the piece that takes,

[00:07:27.76] spk_2:
you know, a

[00:08:35.74] spk_4:
lot of takes a lot out of people you know is is being able to not just read and understand how others are feeling, but kind of react to that. I don’t see manager because it’s not your job to, like, manage their feelings, but be able to react to it and and both of you have a strong interaction. You know, um, I also think there’s something I see a lot in the nonprofit sector that leads to burnout us folks truly being so empathetic that they’re taking on that emotional burden of either their staff for their community that they serve. You know, it’s something to be able to read and understand and operate within emotions. And it’s another to feel like you are carrying those emotions for your staff, you know, And it’s a lot to carry our own emotions alone, like 20 more people’s emotions, you know, And you ultimately can’t do that at least not very long without burning out. You know, so understanding how you can except and address and engage those emotions that your staff maybe having whether again, whether they’re positive or negative, and and then move forward so that you aren’t just feeling then responsible for every feeling that that person has, you know.

[00:08:51.78] spk_2:
So when you’re feeling emotional about something, getting feeling an emotional reaction or you’re sensing it in the person you’re talking to, you make it explicit. Do you? Yeah, comfortable enough space that you start talking about. You know, you raised the fact let’s put aside what we’re talking about. I’m getting a reaction from you or I’m feeling this reaction to what? Your Let’s talk about how we’re feeling.

[00:10:27.84] spk_4:
I mean, I think it’s hard to put anything aside. So in the moment, you know, just saying I’m really feeling this or how are you feeling about this conversation? You know, I think, and that as adults we have, especially in this sector, we have very complicated feelings. Sometimes often the feelings are like personally feeling challenged by something and at the same time knowing how much we might have to do it, you know? And it creates like an emotional conflict within ourselves. Teoh, hold two things that are maybe opposite at the same time. You know, um and just letting folks have the space to say how they’re feeling. Not just Do you know what your next steps are? Please go do them, you know, like, how do you feel about them? Because I feel like if folks don’t have space to maim and share and address how they’re feeling about things when they go to to move forward with those next steps, they’re either not going to go as maybe effectively or efficiently as they could because they’re still like, caught up in processing how they feel about them, you know? So just spending that probably shorter amount of time undressing how folks are feeling together essentially like speeds up them being able to go do the work. You know,

[00:11:10.80] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As We received our P PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven? It sounds like this is sounding abs, religion, absolution. I absolve you. You are absolved. Um, but it is just forgiveness, not absolution. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events to find out more about these p p p loans and forgiveness. Now back to leadership with Amy Sample Ward.

[00:12:17.54] spk_2:
I identified you as AH vulnerable leader because of the video that you posted on the Internet website that was announcing the decision to cancel the to cancel the 2020 NTC, the non profit at the conference. And there were I think there were two times in that video that we saw you wiped tears from your eyes. And not only that, but you opened up to the fact that the conference represents 62% of and tens revenue for the year. So you’re not only gonna be without that revenue, then you also had penalties that have to be paid on. So new and additional expenses penalties paid for contracts that had medical. Um, so the I guess the parts where you were teary, tearful, you didn’t. Or did you think about taking those out of the video or or doing a take to where you will be showing less emotion to the public?

[00:12:25.74] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, at that point in the day, I didn’t know that there were tears left. I’d already cried in in every in every phone call I had for that day, you know? So I kind of thought I was dehydrated enough. Do not have that you bore

[00:12:42.07] spk_2:
about just just last month. I mean, yes, maybe our recording on April 28th it was Yeah. It was just last month that this will happen.

[00:12:53.50] spk_4:
I have goose bumps with you, just describing the day and having to make the video

[00:12:56.85] spk_2:
by our watering a little bit thinking about you.

[00:16:58.34] spk_4:
Yeah. I mean, I think the I mean, you know me, like I’m usually a one take person like, Well, however, that went is how it went, you know, But I guess that’s back to the authentic piece. But, you know, I also I mean, I got to the end of the video. I felt pretty good for, like, being able to continue talking. I never had to stop and cry. That felt that was kind of my bar, you know, like, I continue to talk the whole time, so that wasn’t success. And then, you know, I do it Thomas, our communications director, and said like, I cannot watch myself say those things again. So you watch the video. If you think I’m not holding it together enough, you know, I can try and do it again. And he was like, no thistles sign. You don’t have to try and do this again, you know, um but I think I have had a lot of seen back. I mean, I’m someone who cries. There are lots of people that cry, you know? Oh, and crying is great and healthy. And to me, feels like a clear sign that I I opened up the channels so that my my heart and my body can tell me when I’m feeling certain things, you know? And, um, I always cried the NTC, you know, because there’s such incredible, passionate folks. They’re sharing their stories. There are really wonderful people. Well, that we’re highlighting our awards. You know, I just get sad. That’s the last day, and everyone’s gonna leave. So, um e I have gotten feedback in the past, especially from women or non binary folks in the community that getting to see said someone willing to cry has made them feel like bay themselves. As someone who has those emotions is not unprofessional, you know, and is not doing something wrong, and she wouldn’t be who they are. So I appreciate those folks giving that kind of generous feedback. Like I you know, we don’t necessarily have a relationship. You have to tell me that, you know, So that’s a huge gift. But I also thought about that in the video after, you know, after Thomas said he was gonna use that and he said, like, it looks like you’re crying. Are you OK with us putting that out there and it was just like, this is really effin hard. Yeah, like I held it together. So I’m buying with with that. And like, maybe people won’t notice that don’t know me are paying this close attention to the video, you know? So I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, but it is really hard to say those things especially, you know, of course, we all the world is different now, and all these weeks later, we know a different truth. But at that time, these things were not known, you know? So, um, there’s there’s no reason that saying something hard has to be, like, straight faced and going No emotionless. Yeah. Um I mean, it was just just like a few, like the following sunday. Maybe after we canceled staff a staff person posted in our slack account that the Baltimore Convention Center, where we were meant to hold the conference was gonna be in Baltimore, was being transition to be a field hospital for Kobe patients. And it was like it was just a ah, huge emotional release for so many of us. Not necessarily sad, but just all those emotions, you know, that like we had put so much work into planning what we would do in that at space. And now, instead of us being there, there’s patients, you know. And what is that? How does that reflect on everything that we must have just gone through? So I don’t think there’s any way to have made that video or to have talked about that decision or those times without with without a lot of emotions, you know?

[00:17:33.84] spk_2:
Well, I admire the the willingness to share emotion and also to accept it in others. I I can’t only see how that would create a more collaborative, cohesive team, closer relationships with each individual team member on then and then as a result of a more cohesive team Overall, Uh, I can’t see. You know, I don’t I don’t understand people who, um, think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness, right? No, that makes you somehow makes you weak, and you have to be stoic. All

[00:19:41.06] spk_4:
right, very. It’s a very like white, dominant capitalist, patriarchal, even mode of thinking, right, because emotion and those paradigms is feminine and feminine is bad. Where we all have all of those traders, you know, and that emotion is uncontrolled, and that’s not good right, Those air, those air bodies of thought that want control. Um And I guess I also just would love a world where those air, not the bodies of thought, were operating with them. Right? That like we’re not We’re not here. T get the last dollar out of everything that I believe as a community, we have all the resources we need for the rural we want. It’s about working and really station ship with each other so that we can use those resources in the right ways, you know? And I think that piece about being in relationship with each other is the piece I think about. You know, when you’re talking about vulnerable leadership like if you’re in a relationship, you expect to be vulnerable with that person and have that person be vulnerable with you, right? That’s but so much of of kind of the U. S. Culture is like relationships are Onley romantic relationships like there are partner or spouse. Relationships are every person that we interact with, right? And if you’re really entering those conversations, those friendships in relationship with each other, you should be vulnerable with each other. You should be comfortable being vulnerable with each other. You know, like you and I have had off camera off camera, off audio, very vulnerable conversations, right about, like, personal growth and things that we want to work on. And that means that other craft conversations we have that maybe oranges emotional or art is vulnerable are better because we’ve also been able to have those other types of conversations, you know? So I think seeing leadership as maybe the person who stewards those relationships within the organization changes again the role in the dynamic of emotion there that you’re almost the one that has to be even more vulnerable because you’re the one saying we are in relationship here, you know? And we really should have have these connections with each other.

[00:20:39.84] spk_2:
See, this is why you’re the person who writes the books because you see, you take this from the microcosm that that we were talking about. And then you extrapolated to the broader community that has sufficient resources to achieve the missions and the goals that we want. If we could just channel those and work together. Yeah, you have ah, way of seeing the big picture. Thank you. I admire which I’d mind. Yeah, that’s a Europe. Yeah. You’re the book writing people. You know, things. If you have the books in you and those of us who have the more I don’t know, maybe more.

[00:20:42.74] spk_4:
The area is

[00:20:51.54] spk_2:
where the grounded worth the grounded level. But you take it to the next level. Um, well, so

[00:20:52.32] spk_4:
what? So can I, like, reverse the interview and s

[00:20:57.27] spk_2:
so I don’t like when, uh, you know,

[00:20:59.06] spk_4:
you don’t. That’s why I e

[00:21:02.05] spk_1:
ever turned you down. Maybe I did in the beginning.

[00:21:19.64] spk_4:
So? So just as like, a thought experiment. Not that you have toe, you know, share something that you don’t want to share on the air. But you know it. There are there examples when, like, what’s your anti? See a video? What’s what? You had to share something. It is not to being broadcast with the world like our video, but you know it. Is there something that wasn’t wasn’t bound within a romantic relationship, but was an example where you were having to share information or news or ask a question that required your vulnerability in relationship with someone professional?

[00:22:13.04] spk_2:
Yeah. The ones that come to mind are a couple of a couple of shows. A ah show on diversity equity and inclusion with Jean Takagi. Where we, you know, we talked explicitly about white male power. Yeah. Ah, and history. Um, and then another one that you and I did I don’t remember Was that it was at a d I conversation? No, it was when you and I talked about poverty. Porn?

[00:22:19.29] spk_4:
Oh, yeah,

[00:22:25.44] spk_2:
that was, uh, that was a moving one for, um, So those are those are a couple of those mind. Yeah.

[00:22:31.06] spk_4:
Thanks for sharing. What is Iris? Yeah, I know. You want to turn it back around?

[00:23:51.94] spk_2:
No, no, because I there there are There are people who have, you know, have this format, But going back decades, um, who I admire like Dick Cavett. Cavite is ah, seems to be a very vulnerable and authentic host of his show. And there’s hundreds of clips on YouTube of him. Yeah, and he opens up, and I you know, um, there are other folks as well. Ah, maybe lesser known, you know, but that I take cues from yeah, producing the show. But in being a host, like the host guest interaction, Dick Cavett is is my number one because he because he is so authentic. Yeah, so it doesn’t, you know, Yeah, I think those were sort of breakthrough moments. I would count those. I don’t know if you count your in 10. You know, the NTC cancellation video is a as a highlight of your career, but when those conversations happen, it’s completely organic. You know? I know D eyes a sensitive topic, but I didn’t know that I was going to get emotional with g discussing it. Right. But

[00:24:41.44] spk_4:
I think part of that reflection that you’re having is also the acknowledgement that whether the topic is sensitive or not, it’s that you feel personally responsible for your actions within that topic, right? Like I think about, um, I have some friends who have had a history with cancer, and, you know, when they share stories of Dr that was like and here’s like the news, blah, blah, blah, it’s so hard. And somehow it is easier when the doctor is also sad, you know, and feeling like this is really hard. We’re gonna talk about this. We’re also gonna talk about treatment and and whatever, but you don’t have to not share the news, But you also don’t have to share it in a cold way. You can be. You can you can share in that kind of personal space of that topic with someone, and I kind of hear that in your reflection. You know that? Yeah. Is it? It’s a hard topic, but you were willing to be kind of responsible for yourself in that topic, you know?

[00:26:02.35] spk_2:
Um, all right, So how does it let’s bring it back this back to the leadership, then? Yes, Um, where we’re talking about being open emotionally, being authentic, Um, empathic, I think subsumed in all this is listening, active listening as well as feeling emotion, hearing words as well as as well as taking in the full person. Not just not only what they’re saying, but listening to their words. Um, curious minded, sometimes in leadership, uh, one of the at least one of these, uh, previous special episodes. The idea being curious minded, you know? Yeah. Asking questions, not just taking what said. And I guess, you know, ignoring your own questions about it, being willing to admit that you don’t understand something that someone has just explained you know, maybe you’re hearing it for the first time. It doesn’t have to be a technical subject. You know, it could be a to be a very emotional subject, but you just don’t You don’t quite you don’t grasp. But you’re curious enough and authentic enough to ask, you know, could you flesh it out more?

[00:26:21.08] spk_4:
Yeah. Being curiosity is

[00:26:25.60] spk_2:
I just don’t understand what you’re all

[00:28:31.24] spk_4:
right. I think curiosity is something that folks could use so much more. I feel like I don’t hear folks talk about curiosity very much. And I feel like it could be a pass for all of the times When you’re like, I don’t get what you’re saying instead of having to say or fight and some nice way to say, like, can you please repeat that? Because I don’t understand. You could say I’m really curious, you know, like, can you keep talking about it because I’m just very curious. And using curiosity as Urine road both for understanding and kind of letting folks further explain themselves is such a kind of positive neutral entry point instead of you’re not making sense, right? Or you did not explain that to May right. It’s like I’m curious. Please just keep keep explaining. You know, um and I think the other part of what you’re saying there is acknowledging that as a leader. And again, I don’t think a leader is only someone who has, like, CEOs, their job title. Anyone in any moment is maybe the leader right of their project on their team or whatever, but acknowledging that you don’t already know everything in my experience, that looks like not knowing how to do any certain thing that pops up as an organization. It’s so much more freeing for me as an individual t just openly say, Well, it’s certainly never canceled the NTC before. So, like, I don’t have answers to your questions about what we’re about to do. But I know that we’re gonna stay in relationship. We’re going to stay in this room. We’re gonna stay in this together, and collectively we will figure out the answers to those questions. We will figure out what it is we need to do, and then we will do it, you know. But, um releases myself of having to, like, anticipate every single question to know the answer. When, of course, I don’t know those answers. I’ve never done this before. A lot of people, you know? I mean, we’re on our, uh, you event planners association list. And everyone in March was like, I’ve literally never canceled an event What we stole student yet saying, because that’s not the world that we’ve ever lived in. So getting to let go of that expectation for yourself, Let’s your staff again. Let’s hold it for themselves. You know? And I think more deeply creates unauthentic relationship where staff could say, wow, Amy openly admitted that she had no idea what she was doing. Now, I don’t feel as much pressure to say I don’t know what I’m doing. Can you help? You know, and

[00:28:52.24] spk_2:
coming from that creates, I think, builds confidence in the team that can. None of us knows now, but collective 20

[00:28:59.63] spk_4:
four hours later, collectively, we figured out

[00:29:02.08] spk_2:
we’re gonna figure it out. Yeah,

[00:29:03.39] spk_4:
Yeah, totally. I think it builds a lot of the like resilience muscles, you know, because people have experienced Whoa, I’m up against the wall. I don’t know what to dio. We set out loud that we don’t know what to do. We came up with a plan together, we implemented the plan. Look, now we’re moving forward, Okay? Next time I’m up against that wall of I don’t know, I can say, Oh, I’ve been here before Like I have the muscle memory to say, Hey, like, even faster this time I’m gonna raise the flag that I don’t know what to do. And I need help, you know? And it cuts down on all that shirt, You know, Um and it makes it less emotionally trying, I think because you’ve already done it Waas, you know, And now you could say, Oh, it wasn’t like this. It wasn’t Is that as I thought? So it’s not gonna sting when I say, hey, I don’t really know what

[00:29:47.89] spk_3:
to do. Yeah, through

[00:29:49.37] spk_2:
that NTC cancellation in 21. Wait,

[00:30:00.54] spk_4:
do anything now? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:30:01.74] spk_6:
Um let’s talk a

[00:30:28.89] spk_2:
little about self care, as as a leader Teoh to be authentic and vulnerable. Um, I think there are things you have to do for yourself when you’re when you’re not. You’re not the CEO. Um, how do you know if you think about it explicitly is I’m gonna take care of myself. you probably don’t. That sounds that sounds too. I e take care of myself so I can take care of intent and the technology in the non profit space now. But

[00:31:38.30] spk_4:
I think about it. More regeneration. You know, whether I need to have energy again for tomorrow. Or sometimes I’m looking at my calendar for the day, and I think, like, what do I need to have the energy I need for for those other meetings I see coming up, Like, I might see that there’s a meeting that I know is gonna take a lot, you know, And there I’m sure many people listening to this understand, like sometimes you wake up and you look at your calendar you like, how do I have literally eight hours straight of back to back meetings like this is not a human’s schedule. So I will bump some of those meetings and give myself okay. I think I need this pacing. I think I’m gonna need a break before this other, you know, discussion or whatever. Um, and move those meetings, but so there’s like the tactical calendar management. I really do think it’s self care if you are setting yourself up to have days that aren’t sustainable. You’re not gonna make it through, you know? And yes, we all have demands on our time, But we’re also in charge of our time and we can say actually, have two minute insisted I’m gonna be present with you. So why should we even bother talking? You know, let’s move to me.

[00:31:42.81] spk_2:
You are in control of your own calendar.

[00:33:24.54] spk_4:
Yeah, and the other thing that I have found, at least for me, is having a really strong meditation. Practice helps on a daily or multiple times a day place because for me and you know, this is just what works for me and my personality and my mind, this doesn’t like prescriptive. And of course, if you don’t do this, something’s wrong. But for me being able to sit with how I’m feeling with how I’m reflecting on actions or conversations, being able to like, kind of come home and be accountable to myself is the hardest judge. It’s a lot easier, I think, people, I think it’s easier for folks that I work with our relationships with Teoh Teoh, give me a pass out of things that I know. I’m gonna be harder on myself than someone else. What? I think that’s true for many of us, right? We’re always our harshest critic, so accepting that in creating space where I’m really just sitting with myself and having to accept and let go or process or or make a plan for something has helped me tremendously because I can then let go of something instead of, you know, kind of keeping it in the doctor, my mind haunting May as I move forward, I could say, actually, like, clearly that didn’t go the way I wanted it to go. I wasn’t the version of myself I wanted to be. And, you know, there’s been whatever restoration I’ve apologized or I’ve talked to that person. But that piece is done, and the peace with myself is still there. And using meditation as a process for kind of accepting myself on letting those things go has has really created a lot of space, I think, for growth in my in myself and in my job,

[00:33:36.34] spk_2:
its authenticity with yourself. Yeah, comfort with yourself.

[00:34:06.24] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, And I think the biggest lesson honestly is, except like I’m someone who loves to learn. I think that if you already know everything about what you’re doing, you’re probably quite bored. You know, I’m glad that I show up to work and like what I do, What I have to do today. Let’s get this out. You know, that feels great. It’s like I get to stretch every day. Um, but it also means that I have to learn things the hard way, you know, because I didn’t already know them. And so having that meditation practice, just sit with myself and say like, it’s OK that I didn’t know that it’s okay that I learned it in a real rough way, you know, and and really think about what? Out of that experience I did learn and back to what we were saying earlier. Like all of those pieces of acceptance and acknowledgement and and reflection kind of get filtered in to building a stronger and stronger gut, you know, so that the next time I’m in that situation, I can hear and listen and say, Oh, I know what’s happening here. Like I’ve got all those little puzzle pieces telling me this is the same as that one time, you know and know how to move forward in the moment,

[00:34:57.24] spk_2:
I feel like leaving it there. Is there anything? Is there anything you wanna you want to leave our listeners with?

[00:35:36.84] spk_4:
I guess I would say, Of course, everything I’ve shared is my own experience in reflection, and we’re all different people. But if there’s part of you that’s wishing that you had done something differently or could be more vulnerable with your staff, or just operate Maurin relationship with the people that you collaborate with, you can just start doing that. There doesn’t have to be like announcement that’s rolled out that today you will start, you know, operating differently or communicating differently. You don’t You don’t need to save it because you’ve operated a certain way. You have to stay in that way like we’re humans, and we’re meant to change and evolve and grow. So if you want to be more open, just start being more open. Even if it feels awkward at first. You’ll get better at it cause your practice, you know, and then you can can have that be your default,

[00:36:08.08] spk_2:
every sample ward. Love it. Thank you CEO and our social media, social media and technology contributor and you’ll find her at a me R s Ward. Thank you very much.

[00:36:11.93] spk_4:
Thank you, tony.

[00:36:17.33] spk_2:
So good to talk to you. Yeah, like here. Keep

[00:36:17.65] spk_1:
taking care. Yeah. Keep taking care of yourself.

[00:36:19.83] spk_4:
Yes. Stay well.

[00:36:22.12] spk_2:
You too.

[00:39:28.11] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that you can count on and that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. Take 1/3 breath. I’m tripling down on my relax ation advice. It is not merely okay for you to put yourself first at some time each day. It’s essential you have to do it. Make time for yourself each day. Make it the same time each day. If that helps you remember to do it. Hopefully you don’t have to forget you don’t forget that you come first sometime. But I understand working through your in a you’re gonna flow. I understand that. So maybe making it a definite set time. Each day helps you to put aside that time for yourself. But you’re being asked to do stuff that you hadn’t done before in ways and in a place, your home. But with, you know, circumstances around that you haven’t been asked before. And if you have Children, then you’re being asked to do all this while your kids are home. It takes toll on you, so you need to take time for yourself to rejuvenate its not just relaxing. It’s rejuvenating its recovering time recovery time. So please take that time for yourself. For me, I go outside. Um, like I said earlier, I don’t know if you can hear the ocean in the background, but it’s there. Um, I got this ocean across the street every day. I wake up it ZX still there, so I go outside 2030 minutes. Maybe it’s Ah, lunch, uh, or just sitting. If it’s not nice enough outside, then I sit inside and have lunch inside, looking out of the ocean or just watching sitting on the sofa watching. So whatever it is for you, you may not have a notion. Ah, what can you do for yourself. A walk, a trip to a park? Uh, it may be It may be listening to music. Um, if that’s if that’s good for you, whatever it is that can help you to rejuvenate Recover, do it. Take the time for yourself each day, please. That is tony. Stick to now. It’s time for donor advised funds with Maria. Simple.

[00:39:45.22] spk_6:
My pleasure to welcome back Maria. Simple. You know who she is? She’s the Prospect Finder and our Prospect research contributor. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at the Prospect Finder. Reassemble. Welcome back.

[00:39:47.12] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. Good to be here.

[00:40:22.91] spk_6:
Yes. Well, I’m sorry you can’t be with me at the beach. I don’t know if the video is gonna turn out okay, but I just decided that any schmoe could record on zoom and put an ocean background, uh, behind them. But, uh, any Schmo can’t just walk to the beach and get unauthentic ocean background. So I’ve got one good using card. I’m tired of being in just any Schmo. No, I’m breaking out now. No, no, no. Most smiles. You know, most smoke for may. You’re doing a okay, right?

[00:40:24.71] spk_3:
We’re doing just fine. Thank you. Yeah. Like you were blessed to live near near the water and can get out for a beautiful walk. Clear your head and get some fresh air.

[00:41:05.01] spk_6:
Yeah, I’m looking East, Uh, in your direction. Right now, you’re several miles up or over, actually, not up, but, uh, looking east. I’m looking in your direction. Nice point. Puffy clouds you got there. So we’re talking about donor advised funds. What? Yeah, you know, they’ve been around for years or nothing new? Uh, no, that it could be a source of headache for non profits. Why do you feel like now is a good time to talk about it? Well, you know, I’ve been hearing a

[00:41:38.77] spk_3:
lot of discussion about them recently, and I think that, um, about sure if that’s because in this period of cove, it a lot of people are using their donor advised funds to make some contributions to organizations to help them out. But I started doing a little bit of digging to see really just how large feet I’m going to say the industry because the come and what I found was this report that’s put out annually by something called the National Philanthropic Trust. And they dio a donor advised fund report every year. And I couldn’t believe when I saw that the, um the rapid growth that they’ve had, that they had an 86% increase in contributions in the last five years to donor advised funds.

[00:42:02.40] spk_6:
Okay, that’s money. That’s money into donor advised funds. How about money coming out of them getting into charities hands

[00:42:50.68] spk_3:
so that that number was 23.42 billion with a B. No, I feel very significant number. And so, anyway, it’s just something that I thought we hadn’t covered really in the show and something that we probably shouldn’t ignore. Um, it’s really vexing for fundraisers for prospect researchers because, um, donors will often set these up as a way to perhaps give Anonymous anonymously in some cases, although, according to Fidelity, about 90% of donors go ahead and say, you know, release my name and contact information to the non profit when I make this gift. So I thought it was something we could at least explore talking about.

[00:43:34.80] spk_6:
Yeah, I think vexing is ah, good way to describe it, because I’ve been hearing this for years, that charities get frustrated when ah, get these gifts and they they have to then follow up with the company of the administrator for the for the of the fund and and plead for donor information, sometimes to get it. Sometimes they don’t wait. You just said about ability. Um, I don’t know that older people I know all the times don’t do that because we’re hearing these frustrations for years. So, uh, all right, so you got some ideas about what we can we can do to overcome these vexations?

[00:45:42.01] spk_3:
Yes. So I thought we talked about some prospecting. Resource is, you know, to do some proactive prospecting. Obviously, if you have the name of the donor advised fund, you would do some additional research on it. But you can also, um, just try and do some proactive prospecting. Your resource is you can use for free. Um, and fee based resource is as well. So let’s start with free, right? You can certainly try and Google, right? You can google the ah donor advised fund and maybe your state and see how maney come up in maybe articles or listing somewhere in a state listing. But I thought guidestar had some some pretty good information for for the nonprofits to start doing some proactive prospecting and list building of donor advised funds that might be in their in their area. Um, so one example that I that I pulled waas um, I just went ahead and searched just on the term donor. Advised I left off the word fund. I just you know, sometimes less is more when you’re doing these these types of searches. Okay, So I typed in the word donor advised in guidestar. Um, and this is under a free account, and I, uh, down nationwide, it came back with 527 search results. Um, I was able to sort by gross receipts. That was interesting to me. Just to kind of see, you know, largest to smallest type. Um, and top top number one, As you might expect, we’ve already mentioned it with fidelity. Um, so number one came up its fidelity number two Jewish Communal Fund number three, Goldman Sachs, Philip Philanthropy Fund number four, Silicon Valley Community Foundation and number five. You guess number your

[00:45:42.97] spk_6:
your community trust.

[00:45:48.99] spk_3:
Actually, no, it’s Ah, vanguard. Okay. I want to be able

[00:45:52.72] spk_6:
to guess that New York community profound spotless that for? Well, I just want to stay. Keep the guests. That newest community trust

[00:45:57.81] spk_3:
actually didn’t even make top 10.

[00:46:19.23] spk_6:
Alright, Alright, alright. So if we have these, all right, we have we have We know that we know all the players now. 520 some, uh, but there still is. The individuals control the money in the funds. What? What do we do now that we know the names of the funds? So one of the things

[00:47:11.38] spk_3:
that you could consider doing is seeing if the fund is somewhere nearby or whatever. Try and, um, you try and develop a relationship with some of the personnel at at the fund itself, right? So these would be employees don’t eyes front and not necessarily the family. Ultimately, if you see the family’s name attached so it might say something like, um, the Maria Simple Fund at Fidelity. Right? That might be the formal name that ends up coming through. So then you would research on that person’s name as much of a hand and using a lot of the research talked about here on the show minimum Coble, especially first time you’ve ever received a gift from EPA. Wow. That’s why.

[00:47:31.06] spk_6:
Wait. All right, So So you’re saying you first you search the fund in searching the funds and guidestar individual names come up. Is that what you’re saying? Well, I’m gonna be o

[00:47:54.88] spk_3:
of the big funds, but the smaller don’t recognised may have the person’s name as well, right? So you want to make sure that you’re just doing some in depth research, So even on the big ones you’re able, Teoh, you’re able to see a list of gifts, and they give how they paid out. Even look at every gift. Fidelity’s the Fidelity investment charitable gift, but is make, um and say you’ll have

[00:48:37.87] spk_6:
Okay. Okay, So you going todo and that. Okay, you look at the 9 90 of that funding. You can see the gifts that came from there. Right. Okay, right away. That’s down for Ah, a couple minutes before that. Was the Beach patrol going by one. Make sure everybody everybody knows this is an authentic background. I don’t want to be any any, uh, questioning of my integrity on background. That was the beach patrol girl by Okay, um, all right, So? Well, yeah, you could. You could start a cross match The larger fund names that you find with your with your own. Crn You could do that too,

[00:49:17.21] spk_3:
right? Right. Absolutely, Absolutely. Okay. Um, and and so, you know, like I said, for freight, somewhat limited as to what you can search for. One of the fee based resource is if I might just mention that people can take a look at and also get a free trial to, um is I wave, so you could definitely try it. Try that one out. Um, I had done a search nationwide to see just on the terminology advised fund and yielded over 16,000 results. Now, some were duplicates, right? So some were mentioned with months. Um, I just

[00:49:28.74] spk_6:
What? What is I wave? What is that? What does that have to do?

[00:49:33.17] spk_3:
So it is, um, It’s similar to, you know, we’ve talked about some of these other fee based resource is before, like, wealth and so forth. So it’s a tool that prospect researchers will use. That is a fee based resource. Um, and so you’re gonna get your yield a lot more surgeries, adults, and you can manipulate the data and export spread meats and so forth.

[00:50:03.61] spk_6:
So you could also use waiting for individual prospect research. Well, yes, absolutely. Get get out what people would get for their see if you have a struck tie with any idea what the seas are. Do you remember?

[00:50:13.60] spk_3:
Um, I don’t know right now, You know, I usually don’t like to try and get into that on your show because it lives forever. Right on your

[00:50:21.56] spk_6:
Well, yeah, I was, I would say it was from 2020 or something. Okay.

[00:50:25.74] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. So I would recommend because normally what will happen is you’re gonna Also it’s a screening tool. So you could also do it on entire screening of your database. So usually they’ll bundle it in, Um, you get a screening done, and then access to the to the search tools for, like, a year or something like that. So very often the fees are gonna be based on your dad.

[00:51:13.70] spk_1:
Time for our last break. Turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through this Corona virus cacophony. And you want to be heard other times beyond this. Of course, they know exactly what to do to make that happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot CEO, you’ve got but loads more time for donor advised funds.

[00:51:23.90] spk_6:
Okay, so you’re you’re against your cross referencing your search results with your own C r m.

[00:52:04.04] spk_3:
Right? Right. So, you know, I like the fact that you can exported into the spreadsheet again. You cross check it with your own C R M. Maybe circulated with Lauren Development Committee are other staff members And have a discussion. I started getting curious, you know, out of all those house. Well, how many of those funds donor advised funds are in North Carolina, right where we’re both residing and actually tries to order 177. Results from Dr Guys funds. It came up just in the last five years or so. Um, so

[00:52:08.25] spk_6:
that is it. Right? That doesn’t sound like very many. 177 donor advised fund gif ts the whole state of North Carolina for five years.

[00:52:16.56] spk_3:
No, those were a donor Advised funds.

[00:52:25.44] spk_6:
All those in the funds, not the gift from the OK, Those aren’t the individual accounts in the funds. Okay, There are almost 600 funds in North Carolina. OK, got you

[00:52:29.83] spk_3:
170 7

[00:52:34.65] spk_6:
177 OK? Yes. Yeah.

[00:53:13.42] spk_3:
Anyway, there certainly something Teoh look for. Especially if you’re trying to reach out to more regionalize families. And, you know, that might be concentrating there. They’re getting in your particular state because then you can see exactly where the gifts on. You know, the types of organizations that A that the owner of my sons have been looking for example. So you can see, you know, there that the gift that here was here, the gift was made. Ah, you can see the where the gift was made, the type of non profit that it is. It’s you. No, you can’t. Yes, You get a lot of data.

[00:53:39.99] spk_6:
Okay. So you could see the charities that they gave Teoh for those similar to your your work. Okay. Exactly. So maybe so. Maybe I waves worth the extra extra money. Whatever it iss. All right, just, uh I wave dot com or yeah, yeah. Oh, um, so couple other things

[00:54:44.24] spk_3:
I wanted to let everybody know about, um I learned that there’s a site e a f not award. Okay, DF direct and what they what you can do there is. It’s a great tool for non process use, and it facilitates giving, um, through donor advised funds. There’s a widget that you can add as a non profit chili gordo so that, as people are, you know, maybe research on their own and, you know, for non profits to donate to in their community, if they stumbled on your organization in their own search, right, maybe they’re using GuideStar or another similar tool to research nonprofits. If you come up and they get to your website, why not make it is easiest possible to connect directly from your website to their donor advised funds. So it’s a widget that connects don’t raise funds and to the donors.

[00:54:52.74] spk_6:
All right, so people are browsing your site. They can click on this and give

[00:54:53.29] spk_3:
him a

[00:55:01.74] spk_6:
group, right? But they have to have a donor advised fund at one of the one of the entities that coordinates or that’s affiliate with this ridge. It right?

[00:55:17.96] spk_3:
Yes, but so many of them are right now, so it’s definitely something that that actually was. I was doing my research for this show that came up multiple. Bless you.

[00:55:19.24] spk_6:
Told you I said I was gonna sneeze, but you’re that’s you’re talking.

[00:55:23.93] spk_3:
So it definitely is worth looking at that site and seeing if that’s a widget. You may want to add to your own website because it’s gonna cost anything.

[00:55:45.67] spk_6:
Okay, Okay. And they’re affiliated with some of the top ones. Okay. All right. Um, you could also be talking to your You know, you could always reach out to your donors. Um, through Europe, you’re here. Whatever your channels are to remind them that they can make their own donor advised fund distribution. You know, technically, it’s a recommendation. But 99.9% of the recommendations get accepted. Approved. But, you know, you could just be directly reminding donors that they can give to you through their donor advised fund.

[00:56:09.13] spk_3:
That’s right. That’s right. So make sure that Burbage is on your website and any other marketing materials and communications that you have.

[00:56:24.73] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. Just remind you people. Um okay. I mean, that that was an easy one. Just what else? Ah, you’ve been thinking about this longer than I have what else will?

[00:56:28.98] spk_3:
So the other thing, too that I think some people forget to ask for is to set up recurring gif ts to your organization. So if you’re already getting some money from a donor advised fund, why not approach those that family and see if they’d be interested in setting up recurring donations to your organization? Supposed to a one once a year gift. So very often it’s very easy for the fund administrator to set that up for you. Um, so that would be a great way to bring in some additional, more consistent cash flow here, or there you

[00:57:02.20] spk_6:
go. Yeah, right. Sustaining sustainer gifts from donor advised funds. Okay.

[00:57:07.97] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. Um, and then, you know, finally, you want to think about success successor gifts, So you can have, um the organization can be named as his successor after the donor dies. So you you know, as you know, tony and plan giving and so forth the language has to be set up properly and so forth, so that might be a discussion to have with people a swell to breathe. The organization to be named as the successor to the fund

[00:57:43.01] spk_6:
Okay. Very good. Just wait. Same way donors can name your organization to there as a beneficiary of their life insurance policy or pension IRA. Any any. Any financial asset with, ah, people on death or a transfer on death closets called. But you don’t have to know that. Just you have to know this is a death beneficiary possible and that can apply to your donors. Donor advised funds as well.

[00:58:08.29] spk_3:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.

[00:58:13.62] spk_6:
All right. Very simple. Cool. Um, anything else I don’t want to cut. You don’t cut you off? No,

[00:58:16.80] spk_3:
I I’m looking at my last Avenger. I’m looking at my notes, and I think that I think we covered all the bases that I want to touch upon And, you know, just making sure that people understand that even though they can be vexing, there are some things that you can do to research them and to build relationships and definitely thanking and stewarding those that are already donating to you through a through a donor advice fund.

[00:59:53.37] spk_6:
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Don’t don’t be put off by these things And there’s enormous amounts of money in them. Is enormous amounts of money coming from them to charities. Um, everything you said? I agree. Just like yeah, they’re not going to Calgary. Oh, yeah, you can’t be. You can’t be put off by the vexations. You may not find out whoever who every gift came from, but you can make efforts best efforts and you’ll find out a good number of them. And you will be able to thank your donors. I remember, you know, and some don’t just want to be anonymous. No, they just don’t want to be. No. So that’s your donor’s choice. It’s not the administrator deliberately frustrating your purpose. Your donors. Some of the donors may just want to be anonymous, and that’s their prerogative. So except that move on to the donors that you can find and thanking and well, solicit for the future. So definitely look into donor advised funds. Don’t be put off by them. There’s enormous wealth in them. There’s enormous wealth coming from them. Okay, Thank you. Very simple. Alright, Maria Sample. She’s the Prospect Finder. The prospect finder dot com our prospect research contributor our doi end of their cheap and free. Uh, you’ll find her at the Prospect Finder. Thanks very much. Foria. Thanks.

[01:00:09.12] spk_3:
Have any good to see you

[01:00:48.58] spk_1:
next week? 20 NTC panels. Most likely if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our

[01:01:28.50] spk_0:
creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff. I did the postproduction Sam Liebowitz managed The Stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. In this music is by Scots. He was the next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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Lorraine Gordon & Catherine Hyde: Coronavirus & Leadership
Listen with compassion. Trust. Be vulnerable. Leaders, bring your heart and your curiosity forward and you can overcome any team challenge. Even today’s. My guests are Lorraine Gordon, principal at Lead With Heart, and Catherine Hyde, senior director of digital engagement for Enterprise Community Partners. (Part of our virtual #20NTC coverage)

 

 

 

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Transcript for 484a_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200413.mp3

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[00:00:42.37] spk_2:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit Technology Conference. Of course, the conference had to be canceled, but we are persevering. Virtually Vie Zoom sponsored a 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant her mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guest now are Lorraine Gordon and Katherine Hide. Lorraine is principal at lead with heart, and Catherine is senior director of digital engagement at Enterprise Community Partners. The Rain and Catherine. Welcome to our coverage of 20 ntc.

[00:01:00.90] spk_3:
Thank you Were thrilled to be here.

[00:01:04.67] spk_5:
I’m

[00:01:04.91] spk_2:
very glad it worked out. And I’m glad to know that each of you is well and safe on in Maryland around the Baltimore area.

[00:01:12.84] spk_5:
Um,

[00:01:14.24] spk_6:
let’s get started with you,

[00:01:27.70] spk_2:
Lorraine. What? You’re you’re NTC topic is this situation calls for leadership. Uh, what What do I do now? Yeah. Now? Yeah. Now what do I do? Um what What is it that ah, the two of you want to bring to the leadership conversation?

[00:01:33.66] spk_6:
Well, when we plan to present at the conference it was What do you

[00:01:38.65] spk_0:
do when you’re in a situation when you haven’t upset, you have a disruption. You have something that happens whether it’s trust or a project is jeopardized or

[00:01:49.87] spk_6:
something where you need to defuse,

[00:01:51.74] spk_0:
um, the tension or the upset. Um, and

[00:02:17.04] spk_6:
this is a prime one we’ve got at the Corona virus way. Could have never planned for this, right, Catherine? No. Our recession is about how do you bring your heart and curiosity to self a team challenge? You know how you show up in that? What kind of insights you bring? Um, so we’re gonna talk about that. And cancer is

[00:02:18.34] spk_0:
gonna share a little bit about the learning objectives of what we hope to accomplish in that.

[00:02:23.74] spk_2:
Okay. You wanna You wanna state the objectives, Catherine, before we get it?

[00:02:27.28] spk_3:
Sure. I would be happy to heart

[00:02:29.62] spk_2:
and curiosity before we get there.

[00:02:52.08] spk_3:
Yes, absolutely. So we had three learning objectives here. One is to build your leadership awareness. That is just your understanding of off. What are the components of leadership and how do you bring them? Forward and ah, hint. It’s got a lot to do with heart and curiosity. So the other the 2nd 1 is to reflect on the barriers to high performance, what’s getting in the way when the when the team isn’t functioning. And one of the things we wanna underscores that leadership is something that could be done by anybody. At any level. Any member of the team can step up and take help, present a healthier way for the team dynamic to move forward. And

[00:03:15.92] spk_4:
then we’re gonna help

[00:03:21.14] spk_3:
you lead leverage, some tools and approaches that would, um, help defuse some of the conflict that might arise. And certainly some of the tensions that teams have, especially when they’re working remotely and they don’t have each other to bounce off of in person.

[00:03:42.33] spk_2:
Okay, let’s stay with you. And, uh, heart and curiosity are not words that are typically associated with leadership. But you’re you’re opening things up. So, uh, star expand our thinking. What, what? What’s the role of heart and curiosity and leadership?

[00:04:27.84] spk_3:
Well, if any of you are familiar with Renee Brown, she speaks about vulnerability and how important that is to leadership. And that is your heart. Bringing your yourself your whole self, allowing your team to bring their whole self, and we’ll talk more about this later. But the idea of how to listen with compassion and how to speak with clarity and the curiosity comes from this approach that we don’t have all the answers. We don’t know all the background. So coming at this coming at any situation, whether it’s conflict, attention or otherwise with your curiosity, is a way to break through some of the barriers.

[00:04:31.41] spk_2:
Okay, vulnerability is, uh, it’s a good adjective.

[00:04:35.12] spk_5:
I like I I admire

[00:05:35.57] spk_2:
people who clearly are are vulnerable. Um, I think a good example of that in leadership is Amy Sample Wards. You know that I’m actually I’m getting a little teary eyed just thinking about it, because she’s tearful in the video that she made you confined in it and 10 dot org’s and go to the fall of the 20 NTC Conference links. You’ll see the cancellation video that where she announced the cancellation and, uh, was made even made, and 10 and 10 vulnerable by saying this is 62%. This conference is 62% of our revenue, and we’re not only losing the revenue from the from the registrations, but we have incurred enormous penalties for the broken contracts with food vendors and signed vendors and all kinds of So she was not only vulnerable on a personal level, but on her organizational level two. And you know, you see her and you see in that video wiping tears at least once, maybe twice. Um, I just thought that that was a great example of what it occurred to me when you said the word vulnerable. I absolutely want that video there

[00:06:04.70] spk_3:
was There was one conference I was at. I mean, Amy is an excellent example of a vulnerable leader and a leader who comes with curiosity and and heart. I remember there was one conference where you could actually get a button that said I made a me cry because she wants to hear your story and she’s there with you in such a re away. So it’s an excellent example. Tony

[00:06:12.47] spk_2:
that arose out at a conference.

[00:06:16.52] spk_3:
They were buttons for your bling. You know, there

[00:06:18.98] spk_4:
was a button there that said I made a me crow. Okay, what do you want

[00:06:22.85] spk_0:
to add? Please, Tonto. But, um um, vulnerability is like a key competency for leaders. It makesem humane. It creates a bridge of trust it says, I’m in this with you. Um, it’s where leaders have an opportunity to really dig deep when it comes to emotional intelligence, which so many studies have been shown to demonstrate that leaders who have strong Q our leaders who are far more productive on all kinds of levels, generating revenue, bringing teams together, creating wonderful

[00:07:00.12] spk_6:
cultures. Um, but vulnerability could be a little scary. It’s scary if you are not vulnerable personally and

[00:07:07.64] spk_0:
your personal relationships. It’s hard to do that at work, you know, because there’s so much we we cover up, and essentially, what we’re covering up is our heart. But that’s the very thing we want. Thio sort of open up

[00:07:19.29] spk_6:
a bit and connect with others, but we all have it. We all have a heart, and we’re all looking for an opportunity to connect. And it’s a powerful tool

[00:07:27.93] spk_0:
being able to lead with heart when you can do that. So

[00:07:32.07] spk_6:
this is a situation that certainly calls for it right now because we’re vulnerable on so many levels of safety and health and well being.

[00:07:41.42] spk_0:
And we were thinking about our families, our communities, our neighbors, our workplaces. So

[00:07:47.69] spk_6:
whether we want to be vulnerable

[00:07:49.32] spk_0:
were at least inching toward that space. Whether we want to or not. You know, I think

[00:07:55.42] spk_2:
there’s so much thinking that, uh, misplaced that that showing vulnerability is a sign of weakness.

[00:08:03.32] spk_4:
I think it’s just the opposite. I think

[00:08:05.78] spk_2:
someone who’s vulnerable is is showing, exuding confidence and strength, actually, that they can open themselves up that way. I

[00:08:13.80] spk_4:
think it’s

[00:08:16.13] spk_2:
a sign of enormous. It’s confidence and strength. Yeah, yeah,

[00:08:18.08] spk_6:
you’re right, you’re right. And as a leader, I have had my best

[00:08:57.72] spk_0:
relationships with leaders who have been vulnerable with me, and when that has happened, I give them my very best. I give them so much more than I would, a leader who really is just trying to just tap whatever you know, not tapping my full self. And so as a leader, I’ve I’ve aimed to do that to, to really bring my full self in my vulnerability and the sense of trust, which is one of things we’re gonna talk about trust being a real bedrock in all of this trust and vulnerability. When you’re in a situation of disruption, so it changes, it changes us. It changes the people around us. It

[00:09:01.33] spk_6:
can actually change the whole vibe in a room. As a facilitator, I’ve seen it happen. I call it sort of dropping the water line when somebody is vulnerable and they drop that water line, you can feel

[00:09:14.33] spk_0:
the shift inside the room and it’s palpable. So

[00:09:17.25] spk_6:
it’s a powerful tool.

[00:09:18.24] spk_0:
And I Catherine, I would just invite leaders to go there.

[00:09:21.59] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah, and it breeds vulnerability. If you can bring your whole self as a leader, it allows your team to bring their whole cells, and it generates an incredible amount of loyalty and willingness to go above and beyond.

[00:10:34.05] spk_2:
Yeah, I’m going to recommend someone to you and and a book that I just I interviewed him and I do so many shows. I can’t remember if if this show has gone live yet, but his name is Jamie Bursts, but it’s spelt like hearse with a B. So Jamie B E A R S e. He’s the CEO of zero, the end of prostate cancer on they have an organizational culture there, Which is which is what his, um Oh, you know, I don’t He hasn’t written a book on this. It’s just No, I’m sorry. I interview a lot of authors to. He hasn’t written a book on organizational culture, but the culture that he’s created at at zero, which is a pretty large organization, 25 or 30 employees or something like that is exactly in line with what you’re describing. You’ll you’ll be interested in. I regrettably, the only resource I know where he talked about organizational culture is my show, so but I’m

[00:10:46.25] spk_4:
not trying to get more people. Listen t o. And he has,

[00:11:19.64] spk_2:
um, they show up with, um hh bedrocks of the culture. HHS Um, humility, Is it humility? Hunger? Yes. Not honestly. They’re honest people, but it’s humility, hunger, and I can’t run with the esses. I don’t want to miss quarter, but HHS bedrock of And they have some medical, um, vulnerability in trust so that they

[00:11:20.16] spk_4:
trust each

[00:11:56.74] spk_2:
other to be vulnerable. They open up their meetings with they spend five minutes going around the room, putting a spotlight on someone else who exhibited either HHS. This humiliation is ability, hunger and smarts, man. Shoot. But you put the spotlight on someone else, you go following someone else. Um, thinking like, um silence is dissent. When the leader says, When the leader, whoever’s leaving that meeting says, you know, are we ready to go on? Everyone has to affirmatively Yes, yes, and one who’s quiet then that’s assumed to be descent. And they’re asked, Are you ready? Or do you have an objection? You know, So they want everyone affirmatively agreeing to move to the next topic or think or things like that. I think that. Anyway, um, we’re here to learn from you, but you’ll be in

[00:12:17.91] spk_0:
No, that’s good. That’s a great story. Is the

[00:12:33.39] spk_2:
culture at zero? Um, and a lot of what you’re saying is reminding me about my conversation with Jamie Bursts. Um what about What about trust? Lorraine? You want you want some more about that film?

[00:14:34.14] spk_0:
Yes, absolutely. So trust is the bedrock of all teams. And if if you’ve read anything around the five dysfunctions of a team, um, Lindsey Onis book, he talks about trust. Everybody has a different lens of trust, but he sort of focus is on for the purpose of shared language. He focuses on trust being in the areas of reliability, acceptance, openness, sinking crew. It’s, um so trust is a key thing of being able to create that within teens and being able to talk about what’s my islands of trust? Is it that you that you are reliable, You deliver what you say you’re gonna deliver? You set up regular zoom meetings In this disruption, you make yourself accessible. Somebody else may have the lens of trust around acceptance. You know, you’re accepting me in this disruption in this pandemic. You’re accepting my circumstances of home at home and all it is that I need to juggle kids, elder care, all those kinds of things. So everybody has a different lens, but it all sort of bedrocks under trust. And we all have people in our lives who we can kind of sort of think about when we think of the word trust who naturally comes to mind when we’re in workshop. Catherine and I typically will say, Close your eyes and think of somebody who you when we say trust somebody who comes to mind in it and it could be a leader could be a family member could be a friend, but almost undoubtedly acceptance, reliability, openness, not so much congruence. Tuscan grew. It’s really kind of wraps up all three, but those usually come to mind, and then we really just have a conversation about how do you build trust? How is trust? Quickly broken. Um, you know, are you somebody who trust people initially, when you meet them, where or do you have them earn trust? You know, So it’s a really good conversation, um, around how to do that during this time. So part of building trust for teens right now would be, you know, create a

[00:14:42.69] spk_6:
having a conversation

[00:15:26.34] spk_0:
about what do you need? What is it that you need? Um, how can I support you? Those air all embedded in trust? Um, one of things I often say is, what should I stop doing? Start doing, continue doing, um, it’s leaning in and saying, You know, I want a trusting relationship here, And how do we build that? Because trust is something you built. It’s like it’s like any investment. The more you invest in put trust moments, trust exchanges, sort of in the trust kit or whatever the more you can tap it. And if I’ve got a long term relationship with Katherine of 20 years, and she does one thing that appears to break trust. I’m gonna continue that relationship because she has such a deeper investment with me versus somebody new who really hasn’t taken the time to invest. So

[00:15:36.52] spk_6:
this is a time for

[00:15:40.78] spk_0:
teams to really build trust and, um, create that foundation and be reliable as much as you can in being accessible during this pandemic and being available, answering questions, creating connection, being accepting of people, circumstances at home, A lot of those kinds of things.

[00:16:02.59] spk_2:
And, of course, all this that we’re saying applies in leadership generally and generally. Certainly we’re in the midst of this spandex, like, makes sense to grounded in our current reality, but it applies way beyond absolutely this situation. Katherine earlier you talked about you mentioned. Listen with compassion. Could you flush that out, please? I love that.

[00:16:17.51] spk_3:
Yeah, I would. I would. I would love to do if you will allow us a little role. Play with Lorraine around the levels of Listen,

[00:16:26.60] spk_4:
you have You obviously have something planned. How could I Way

[00:17:44.88] spk_3:
would love to do this. There’s ah, with some acknowledgement you can have here. There are three levels of listening and the first level. I like to say it’s all about me. That’s when I’m listening to you and I’m busy understanding its impact on me. Whatever you’re saying, the second level of listening, It’s all about you. I’m listening to understand the impact and the, uh, inference and the effect of what you’re saying on the story you’re telling has on you. The third level is called Global Listening, and it’s when we’re cut it. It’s beyond you and me. And it’s the kind of listening that ah comedian has to do to read the audience. There’s a sense of the energy in the room. It’s like beyond the human individual. So Lorraine and I was one of the things to keep in mind is, you know, people want to give a bad rap to level one listening, but it’s a really important thing. If you’re giving me an assignment, I need to be thinking, Can I do it? Do I have the time? What is my capacity? I have to be thinking about its impact on me specifically, But if you are telling me something that’s important to you and you’re expressing a piece of yourself, I need to be listening in level two listening. I need to make sure I’m focused on you and the impact that what you’re saying in your storytelling has. And that’s where the listening with compassion comes through on Lorraine. And I would like to do a little role play where we show you what it feels like to listen at level one and then tow. Listen it level two.

[00:18:03.98] spk_2:
Absolutely. Katherine can just make a suggestion. Move your move, Your mouthpiece? A little. A little below. Just a little. Blow him out. Yeah, that’s good. OK, is some of the some of the constants we say, like, uh, you know, and it breaks up just a little bit. I think it’ll heal less. You’ll aspirated less air it right into the right into the microphone. But But we can still we can still hear you. Okay. Please.

[00:18:27.64] spk_3:
Okay. So Lorraine is gonna tell me a story. What do you want to tell? And I’ll start with level one listening when it’s all about me. What she’s saying,

[00:18:37.25] spk_6:
Katherine, guess what? Last year, I want a fabulous trip to Israel. It was something I’ve been wanting to do for so long. Less June and It was incredible.

[00:18:47.86] spk_3:
Meal is always fascinated. May it’s hot. I’m so jealous that you could go.

[00:18:54.32] spk_6:
Yeah, Yeah. I went with a group from my church, and it was an amazing experience and did this whole holy tour. And there were all these other church proves

[00:19:04.26] spk_4:
there that would

[00:19:05.40] spk_3:
have been so cool if I had been there because, you know, that means so much to me to to be part of community like that.

[00:19:13.45] spk_6:
Yeah, I felt like I was in community, Katherine. And you know, so many historical sides and, uh, the upper room And, you know, going to the temples and asana was it was incredible to see

[00:19:28.90] spk_4:
you don’t even know what

[00:19:29.66] spk_3:
half of those things are that you’re talking about.

[00:19:32.66] spk_2:
Okay, We get

[00:19:33.59] spk_4:
way, we’re gonna fly with Catherine. That was

[00:19:37.50] spk_2:
good. You know what you tried? You tried thio. Turn it. I wish I could have been part of that community, like, you know, like using the word community makes you a better listener.

[00:19:48.13] spk_4:
You know, said community. You know, I said hard. You know what e? I said the words. So I guess I’m a level to this here. I

[00:19:58.00] spk_2:
like that. there’s a little twist.

[00:19:59.16] spk_4:
I wish I could have

[00:20:03.08] spk_2:
been part of your new didn’t say your community. Okay, I’m sorry. Okay, We got it. Go ahead, please.

[00:20:06.33] spk_3:
So Lorraine’s going to start the story again, and I’ll give level two listening.

[00:20:09.55] spk_6:
Okay. Katherine, last year I went on this fabulous trip to Israel, and it was amazing last June, and it was on my bucket list, something I had wanted to do,

[00:20:18.65] spk_0:
and it really wasjust quite a spiritual experience for me.

[00:20:23.42] spk_3:
Well, I can I could just see what it meant to you in your face. You light up when you talk about it.

[00:20:29.24] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. I saw holy sites that I had read about for years. And just to be in these places, garden of Vicinity and all these specials places was pretty incredible. Being in better ham and a shepherd’s field. It was

[00:20:47.04] spk_4:
it was quite

[00:20:47.54] spk_6:
touching. At times. I just I had to pinch

[00:20:50.07] spk_0:
myself and realized Am I really here?

[00:20:52.72] spk_3:
Absolutely. I can hear how it enriched you. Just in your voice.

[00:20:57.31] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for showing interest,

[00:21:00.04] spk_0:
Katherine. I really appreciate that. Just your you’re leaning in just makes me almost relive the experience again. So that’s great.

[00:21:08.90] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:21:09.74] spk_2:
excellent. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:16.02] spk_4:
Short little example. Interest is clear. Yeah, sometimes say that

[00:21:16.89] spk_2:
to people, you know, I can tell. I can tell how your voice, you know, I was that I could

[00:21:21.12] spk_4:
tell in your voice, or I could see how your face

[00:21:23.19] spk_2:
lights up when I’m having lunch with someone.

[00:21:25.09] spk_4:
I can tell how you’re how animated you get. Well, yeah, we’re bored with the other

[00:21:55.48] spk_2:
percent of our conversation, but because I tend to do that, I put a lot of people off. That’s why I e if I don’t do it virtual, you know, And a lot of times I don’t even do the video. No, but no. But you can see animation. You can see people’s eyes light up our arms start to move their hand. You know, you can see Ah, smile. Come in their face. Absolutely. It’s There are things we talk about that brighten us instantly. And yeah, that’s being

[00:22:01.31] spk_4:
the good skills

[00:22:10.39] spk_2:
being very graphic. Just perfect to recognize. Okay. You want to take us to a level. Did you

[00:22:14.20] spk_4:
know I’m not tonight? Were you three? But I do want t about I do stand

[00:22:23.68] spk_2:
up comedy. I’ll tell you about little when that really sucks when nobody’s laughing at your jokes. Um, actually, it doesn’t happen too often, but, uh, you get a sense of a room because you use that example of of a state of comic leading the room. Um, you know, when it’s not going well, um, you know, when a certain type of joke didn’t doesn’t do well, don’t do more of those, you know, Don’t try to push it. Maybe just that one. I’ll try another one, just like it Now, you know, time to move on, tell a story about seventh grade. You know, Tele Tele vulnerability story or something. And no. Yeah,

[00:23:06.84] spk_3:
but I want to say the reason that we talk about this and we spend time on it is because if you don’t know your options when you’re listening, you can’t use them intentionally. Right? So there are times when you need to be listening on level one, and there are times when you should be listening on level two, and we encourage you to be aware of your conversations to be sensitive to that. And this is even true in your home with your family, right?

[00:23:21.60] spk_4:
E was just

[00:23:35.44] spk_6:
gonna add. So both Katherine I our leadership coaches and when we’re coaching a client, we really need to hone into level three to level three is really looking at not just a smile, not just

[00:23:41.80] spk_0:
the energy, but it really is going in that somatic vein of where you’re really sensing. The whole body’s been sensing the energy behind a conversation, And you could

[00:23:48.40] spk_6:
sense when somebody is not saying something

[00:23:51.52] spk_0:
and when there may be shielding or whatever. But it’s deeper listening room. We as coaches have to really, really be centered and grounded in our listening because it really is full body listening to something. Intuition is a piece of you. And tradition is a big piece. You

[00:24:07.70] spk_2:
Very good. Um, all right, we still have a couple minutes left. Um, you had some tools and approaches. Who wants the

[00:24:16.37] spk_6:
mind? Catherine, If I mentioned a few things go for I had. So when I was thinking about this interview, I thought about

[00:24:22.04] spk_0:
some things, um, of the people and leaders, uh, and team members could do, and I

[00:24:30.04] spk_6:
had a few things here. Refraining, You know, here’s an opportunity

[00:24:36.74] spk_0:
to rethink how to frame this disruption, seeing it as an opportunity to recreate, to co create together and to give birth to two to some new things. So refrain ballots to leaders. Try not to overload your team with too many tasker projects, because remember there juggling their own family. Childcare, self care. They’re juggling anxiety, depression. You’re adjusting to a new normal balance. Number three. Be creative. It’s an opportunity to think out of the box something new again.

[00:25:03.31] spk_6:
This is all sort of glass is half full

[00:25:19.32] spk_0:
versus half empty kind of mindset. Fourth servant leadership, which requires just what we were just talking about listening, accepting being president, being adaptable and leading with head and heart heart being important, flexibility, flexibility with the deadline’s focus on the big picture and not bet just current deadline that that is required. So that will cause a leader us to expand our comfort zone a little bit. So they were not so tight. They like, I want that deadline and just be done right now

[00:25:35.13] spk_6:
and then. The last one is so

[00:25:50.27] spk_0:
important in a time like this, but it’s so important when there is no pandemic and it means the world to people based on my years of being a leader in organization. And that is saying thanks. Say thanks. It makes a difference. It shows you care. Um um you could never say it too often on thank the team for navigating this this new unknown, uh, territory. Thank them for the completion of a project. Thank them for just the smallest of the biggest things. And it’ll go a long way, and it will increase engagement. It will shift a culture, and it could make a big difference. So

[00:26:14.72] spk_6:
and thanks to you, tony, for yes thing.

[00:26:19.03] spk_2:
Is that the end that you had planned or Katherine Anything you want. Oh, you

[00:26:22.62] spk_3:
know, I think she summed it up beautifully. Okay, Lead with your heart and curiosity.

[00:27:04.74] spk_2:
Well, then, thanks to thanks to each of you A said, I’m glad you’re well and safe. And thank you for sharing. Thank you very, very much. Um, marine core principle of lead with heart, with great a company name. Obviously. Basic leave. Um, and Katherine Hyde’s senior director of digital engagement at Enterprise Community Partners. And thank you for being with 20 ntc non profit tech. Well, this is non profit radio. What I need to say is, thank you. Im profit. Radio coverage of 20 NTC, um, were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software, which I’m grateful for. Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us.

[00:27:18.14] spk_3:
Thank you. Turn. Thank you. My pleasure.

Nonprofit Radio for December 6, 2019: Big Impact

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Vivien Hoexter: Big Impact
Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivien Hoexter is co-author of the book “Big Impact” and she shares lessons and reflections from the authors’ interviews for their book. (Originally aired 4/27/18)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.24] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to

[00:01:19.44] spk_3:
tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% of your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with excess dough, sis if you shared the boneheaded idea that you missed today’s show. Big impact. Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivian Hexter is co author of the book Big Impact, and she shares lessons and reflections from the author’s interviews for their book that originally aired April 27th. 2018 on tony Steak to the Legacy Fallacy were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s a big impact.

[00:02:12.88] spk_0:
It feels so good to be back in the studio and to have a guest in the studio. She’s Vivian Hexter. She’s sitting here life. It’s unbelievable. She’s right here during extra, she’s co author with Linda Hartley of the book Big Impact insights and strategies from America’s non profit leaders. She’s a principal also with Linda Hartley of H two growth Strategies. I’m gonna ask her if she does anything without Linda Hartley if they’re married or they’re married to each other’s brothers or something. I don’t know. Um, also talking about this company name. I think you blew it, but we’ll get to that. Um, So what do Vivian and Linda do in H two growth strategies? They advise nonprofits and foundations in strategies, effective marketing and increasing revenues both earned and contributed. She also coaches executives. She was CEO of Gilda’s Club Worldwide. You know them? The red doors. Everybody knows them. They are at H two growth strategies dot com, and she is at the Hexter. Welcome, Vivian Dexter.

[00:02:20.84] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. It’s great to be here

[00:02:26.12] spk_0:
for pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Um, this book You, uh you interviewed lots of people. We did Hominy, Hominy, non profit leaders. Did you seek out

[00:02:31.76] spk_4:
near it Turned out to be nearly 50

[00:02:38.40] spk_0:
50. Okay, but the cover only has 21 pictures that the top 21 of the 50

[00:02:40.16] spk_4:
those air the 21 who are featured

[00:02:48.15] spk_0:
those eyes that how it works. Okay, those are the ones I read about that featured okay through. But then you had quotes from another 39. That’s that’s right. Okay. Over how many years you you talk to these people.

[00:02:58.61] spk_4:
So the process from start to finish took us about two years. The process of interviewing and then writing and editing and publishing the

[00:03:06.36] spk_0:
book. Now, how do we know that you’ve got the best 50 non profit minds? How did you select out of the thousands that are available? Really?

[00:03:11.24] spk_4:
Well, I have to say it’s a highly highly subjective

[00:03:14.12] spk_0:
list. Your friends Well, ones that would meet you on your timetable.

[00:03:59.21] spk_4:
In some cases, we knew the leaders before we approach them, but that was a really not very many of them did we know? So we really wanted to get a kind of a sampling of folks from the different, if you will, the verticals in the nonprofit sector. Because if you look for books on leadership, you find hundreds of corporate books, but not very many non profit books. And when we looked for non profit books on leadership, we found one for Christian leaders. One for Jewish leaders, one for museum directors. Ah, but not one for leaders who who work in any number of health, the environment. Education. So we really trying to get a broad sample of missions on dhe segments?

[00:04:21.51] spk_0:
Okay, So you thought through this project we did it is not just slapdash, no. Okay. Thrown together. All right, so the book is worthwhile. All right. I’m gonna make sure we got the brightest minds here. We’re gonna be talking for an hour. I don’t want to be. When we talk about advice from lackluster, lackluster leaders, we wouldn’t

[00:04:23.97] spk_5:
We wouldn’t dream of having

[00:04:29.10] spk_0:
poor performers. No, no, no, no. Okay. Okay. Um, now, you you mentioned before we went on air. You’re back in your neighborhood. This is the West seventies. Very comfortable to you.

[00:04:35.28] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. I love for 15 years.

[00:04:37.67] spk_0:
A life experiences, right? Yes. Within a few blocks of

[00:04:41.89] spk_4:
Yes. Yes, Like a trip down memory lane.

[00:04:43.23] spk_0:
All right. You said, uh, you said married. You say born. No, You weren’t born here. No married?

[00:04:50.51] spk_4:
No, no. Married when I was single. Then I was married for the first time. And then I was divorced,

[00:04:54.56] spk_0:
all within a few blocks of

[00:04:55.62] spk_4:
all within a few blocks

[00:05:01.84] spk_0:
with studio in West 72nd Street. All right, cool. Any place is Ah. Look familiar. The bank on the corner, Chase Bank. Oh, that’s where you had to divide your accounts. It’s where you go in there and get them to separate your mind. A nice That’s a That’s a lovely memory. Okay. Any other? Any good places?

[00:05:13.52] spk_4:
Oh, there’s some wonderful shops on Columbus Avenue

[00:05:17.59] spk_0:
top shoes. Still here? Oh, yes. Here’s

[00:05:19.72] spk_4:
the shop. I used to shop a tip top there. Good. Good place to share an

[00:06:28.06] spk_0:
excellent shoe store. What are, uh, by the way? Yes, I have a couple of shoes. The shoes of the roots I’m wearing today. The rain boots I’m wearing today. Tiptop shoes. Shout out to them. Uh, all right, so that’s free. Free media for them. All right. Um, let’s go back to your book. So you break it down into like, you have. You have a lot of interviews, Um, and you break it down into subjects, and then you and you and Linda comment on, you know, like leadership and getting your house in order and being persistent. It’s okay. So, uh, I I’m certainly gonna give you a chance to talk. About what? What’s tops for you. Like what stands out for you, But I come first. Absolutely. It’s your show. Thank you. Usually, I have to say that, you know, I have to remind guests I appreciate you’re acknowledging that without prompting leadership, I’d like to talk about the leadership leadership section. Huh. Um, you get some advice from, Ah, A few people have been on the show. Actually, Henry Timms has, uh, has been on. So I’m working on getting him back as he has a new book, you know, Does new power? Yes. Fine. Wegner. Figure out what new power is. Yes, and hear how you can embrace it. Own it. So we’re working on getting Henry Timms. Of course he’s the, uh I don’t have a CEO. Whatever. Executive director of 92nd Street y So he says he must, You know, build your your your e I your emotional intelligence as a part of leadership. Talk a little about being that humanist.

[00:06:45.01] spk_4:
Yeah. So? So you asked me What? What? What stood out for us? Or you said

[00:06:49.38] spk_0:
you were gonna let me about it comes if you if you can blend them together. That’s very talented,

[00:06:53.54] spk_4:
right? So, in fact, the

[00:06:56.15] spk_0:
don’t bother asking you later.

[00:07:40.04] spk_4:
The emotional intelligence of the leaders we spoke to was really, really striking. Tow us, Really striking. So and Henry Timms, I mean, almost to a person. And even if they admitted to not having been so emotionally intelligent when they were younger, they really, really focused on becoming that. And they clearly were. They admitted when they were wrong, they were able to turn tragedy into something greater. They they were working on diversity equity and inclusion, even if it was uncomfortable. If they were white males, for example, eso So they really they really exhibit kind of the the into to a great degree, the characteristics that you would want in a person you worked for?

[00:07:46.82] spk_0:
Yeah. Admitting you’re wrong. Yes. A bunch of people have touched on that. Yes, uh, being having uncomfortable conversations, um, sharing with staff when you’re not confident in something. Yes. You know, anything you want to flush out about why that makes you a good leader.

[00:08:05.13] spk_4:
Well, I think it’s it makes you a good leader in the in the 21st century. I don’t think it probably did in the past when leadership was about command and control and right. So but But in the 21st century, where, um,

[00:08:18.42] spk_0:
we’re here now? Yeah. This current?

[00:08:25.89] spk_4:
Yeah, where information is so readily available to everyone. It’s really important to be honest and vulnerable with your staff because they’re They’re probably gonna find out anyway if you

[00:08:46.53] spk_0:
Yeah. No, I’m sorry. I raised my She’s just so, like I wantto say the s o r. Scared her by raising my hand. Um, yeah. People think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. I think it’s actually sign of strength. It’s a sign of confidence that you are willing to be vulnerable in front of staff and audience, whatever.

[00:08:58.02] spk_4:
Right? But that’s because you’re a modern man.

[00:09:00.54] spk_0:
Thank you. All right, well, on that, we gotta go for a break. You believe that? All right, hold that thought. We’re gonna come back to that that immediate thought.

[00:09:32.70] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Do you need that kind of C p a. Would that be helpful for you wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to big impact.

[00:09:34.73] spk_0:
Now, let’s go back to Vivian Hexter. Um all right, So what was the last thing you said? Uh, it was a very poignant sentence. You said

[00:09:40.82] spk_4:
I said, You’re That’s because you’re a modern man.

[00:09:57.83] spk_0:
Was it? Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Thank you for refreshing my recollection. Yes. Okay. We’ll come back to that point a few times. Um, yeah. No, but I think vulnerability is a very good sign of confidence and and strong leadership. I mean, in front of an audience or your staff or whatever. You know, it’s a sign of strength and confidence, I think.

[00:10:00.49] spk_4:
Yeah, right, Right. And I think so, too. And so do the leaders in the book. I would say not everybody believes that right? In an hour analysis. This is one of the things that really is a sign of emotional intelligence and of being a great leader for the modern, for the modern, non profit, and I would argue corporate era.

[00:10:42.34] spk_0:
Okay, Excellent. And, uh, self awareness, too. I guess that’s all Rats wrapped up really? In every Yeah, right. Yes, I D’oh! D’oh! Okay, um, see what l see. If it’s ah, exploring, there’s some, uh, there’s some thoughts about exploring life and work. You you make some points about, um, be an explorer. There’s some advice in the book about not following the path that others follow right out of college. You know, follow your own path. But But you and Linda also have some commentary on being an explorer in life and work.

[00:11:19.88] spk_4:
Yes. So I think a lot of a number of our leaders said you should really make sure that when you’re in your twenties, you get out of the environment in which you grew up and go somewhere else. So if you are not able to go overseas, go to another state. If you live in the north, go to the south. If you live in the South, go to the North because the experience of living with and working in another culture really is a huge benefit to developing that self awareness, the cultural awareness that is so important to being a leader in the global.

[00:11:53.04] spk_0:
How does this help you? I’m not. I’m not opposed to the idea. Although I’d rather see more people from the south coming north than me from the north going south. But, uh, no. How is this? How would this help me, um, expand my my leadership capacity.

[00:12:01.31] spk_4:
So when one of the traits of leadership is to be able to put yourself in the other shoes at least I I think so. And if you take if you take yourself out of the environment that you’re most comfortable in that you grew up in and put yourself elsewhere physically, right, you’re gonna be with people, even in the U. S. If you move from the South to the north who are different from you, who think differently, dressed differently, have different pastimes. And certainly if you go abroad, you’re going to be in a completely other culture. So I worked for eight years for F s intercultural program,

[00:12:33.38] spk_0:
American Field Service High School.

[00:12:38.48] spk_4:
Yes. So I have a real bias on this one. I’ll admit that I that I think that the people who are best able to deal with others and persuade them inspire them. Lead them Lead change with them are those who have really gotten out of their comfort zones When they were early in their careers and gone elsewhere to live and work.

[00:12:59.37] spk_0:
So they know how that feels. They could be uncomfortable. So so that encouraging others to do it in your work. Let’s test something that we haven’t done. Let’s try something different. I want we’re gonna explore a program that we have done etcetera. You know what? That vulnerable vulnerability. You know what that feels like?

[00:13:14.10] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. Because you lived correct. You live that incredible discomfort of being a stranger in a foreign land.

[00:13:30.41] spk_0:
Someone else who’s been a guest on this show that you Ah, you profile on dhe interview is are you finger? We love our Yes, I do, too. CEO of Do something dot or ge took over from Nancy Lublin and then non Now also, of course, they’ve spun off T m I. And she’s Is she the CEO of tea? Mm. No, no, she’s only do something.

[00:13:45.22] spk_4:
No, no, she’s radio

[00:13:46.66] spk_0:
of C m iles

[00:13:47.76] spk_4:
CEO and Chief old person.

[00:14:10.84] spk_0:
Old person. Okay. Okay. Of both. Yeah, um so she, she admonishes, may be too strong. I don’t know. She encourages mentor ship Finding a mentor. Yes, finding a mentor when you’re getting started and being a mentor when you’re in the CEO ranks, or as you’re working your way up, what’s the value to the leader? Let go because we’re looking at from leadership perspective. What’s the value of mentoring?

[00:14:15.57] spk_4:
The value is number one. You’re reminded where you came from. And if you’re supervising younger employees, which you almost certainly are, that it helps you to be helping someone who’s trying to get a job somewhere. It helps you to remember what it was like

[00:14:31.82] spk_0:
mom or empathy.

[00:14:52.89] spk_4:
And ah, and it also honestly, to be a mentor feels good. It’s it’s Ah, it’s a way of passing the torch, not passing the torch. Exactly. It’s a way of, um, paying it forward if you will. On and really making sure that the next generation of leaders has the same has has the benefit of your wisdom while you’re still alive.

[00:15:03.43] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah. All right. How about for people who are younger, what’s the value of having a mentor?

[00:15:20.50] spk_4:
So it really you know, parents often tell their kids what not to do because they did it, and we’re sorry to do it. So you have to be a little careful, I think, because you want to help young people avoid some of the mistakes that you made when you were early in your career. Recognizing that they’re gonna have to make some themselves, you can’t prevent them from making some. But if you can point the way and if you can help them build their networks, which we all know, the networks are just critic

[00:15:44.38] spk_0:
critical for growing up. So if you want, if you want to continue in your career, you need tohave. Ah, robust professional network.

[00:15:51.51] spk_4:
Yes, yes, and a strong and powerful mentor who has lots of relationships from having been in the field for a long time. And if that person is generous and willing to share some of those relationships with you and introduce you to people, that’s one of the greatest values in mentor ship.

[00:16:09.42] spk_0:
Should you pursue a mentor? So now I’m looking at it from the person younger in there, non profit career, Uh, who’s in your organization or now you should really go outside. It’s kind of hard to open up to somebody because they’d be senior to you, right? That’s that. Seems little counterproductive.

[00:16:30.17] spk_4:
Yeah, I think it You really have to. If you want an authentic mentor relationship, you have to look outside

[00:16:36.34] spk_0:
the organization. Um, any What would you like to say? Now that has your chance. Um, now it’s all here, so your chance spotlight is on you, but leadership? Anything. Ah, you wanna You wanna add about leadership? That didn’t strike me?

[00:16:47.94] spk_4:
Um, no. I think what I want to do is talk a little bit about what happened after we did the interviews. Right? Because we had all of this material, right? And from having talked to nearly 50 people. And

[00:17:01.47] spk_0:
is it 50 or nearly 50? Now you’re You’re hedging,

[00:17:03.69] spk_4:
knows 47 but nearly 50 sounds, you know, more rounder, right? Yeah,

[00:17:39.79] spk_0:
but originally reset 50. No, it’s not 50. It’s 46 47 47 years. Structure. Precision. Absolutely. Your zeal. Read 21 profiles in the book, which is which are excellent. And then you’ll get you’ll get quotes from an additional, uh how many? 18 2020 28 people. That would be 40 maybe 49 2026 people. All right, let’s keep it straight on non profit radio. Yeah, absolutely. Don’t let the folks confuse you. No. Nor the guest, either. Okay,

[00:18:31.16] spk_4:
Uh, so the so we had all this material, this wonderful material, and we and we knew the book was about leadership because that’s what we set out, that the questions that we asked really were about leadership. But we thought, Oh, go. Oh, boy, The book has to be about something Maur than just leadership. And so what we discovered is that the book is really about the good news and social change. It’s about the how to make a lasting positive social change because many of the leaders we spoke with are actually doing that every day, making positive social change, often without a lot of fanfare, because it’s the nonprofit sector and no one has the money, the advertising budget that a Coca Cola or Pepsi has. And so So we wanted to do a couple things. We wanted people to recognize that in a time when there’s lots of not so good stuff happening, that there actually is a lot

[00:18:41.69] spk_0:
of a lot of good stuff

[00:19:06.11] spk_4:
happening. We wanted more people to know about that. Good stuff. Ah, and we wanted people to be ableto learn from the steps that these leaders outlined for us that became the principles of seven principles that bracket the book. We wanted people to be able to learn from that to make change in their own communities. Let you know. I mean, if they’re working in their own communities, it could be their states, their countries. But the idea is that there’s practical knowledge to be gained here as well as sort of principles. And what have you

[00:19:50.59] spk_0:
Yeah. No. And yeah, I like the details. I mean, that’s why you know, I like, you know, like find a mentor. Mentor? Yes. No. Up your game in. Ah, in emotional intelligence, etcetera. Yeah. All right. Um, can we Ah, I’d like to Ah, getting your house in order in your own organization upto up to where it should be. Right? Principle number two. Yeah, why don’t you Why don’t you overview that and why? It’s important to walk the walk and, um and then, you know, I’ll ask you I ask you something that stuck out for me.

[00:21:32.30] spk_4:
sure. So what? What are leaders told us? And we we really pretty much knew this already. So it was great to have all these leaders saying It is that if your organization is really functional and a good place to work in all the dimensions of what that means, then it’s going to be much easier for you, for your organization to be innovative and to have employees who stay in the organization rather than move on so quickly. Eso you’ll get good organization, you’ll get good institutional memory, and it’ll just be easier to make the change that that you wish to make that to achieve your mission, it’ll be easier and more effective. Ah, so and again, you know, getting your own house in order. It means a lot of things, right, So we have a sort of a selective list. You could list many, many, many things that a leader should do to make sure that his or her house is in order. But some of them include, and this is this is kind of ah ah, A stereotype Recruit talented, passionate employees. Ah, and then retain them. Ah, make sure you have a number two even if that person is not the obvious successor to you. Ah, those kinds of things, right? So in the kind of the human resource is, um, sphere, right? We thought these were really, really important. Make sure that that you’re working on diversity equity and inclusion. This is a, uh, something that all of our leaders are focused on now.

[00:21:35.34] spk_0:
And as a routine part of there. There there, work. It’s not a campaign, no campaign for divers. No, it’s just ongoing, always evolving. It’s always part of their hiring and retaining.

[00:22:04.85] spk_4:
Yes, this is It is another thing that really struck us about about what the leaders were saying is that they had you had to start somewhere when if you were working on diversity equity and inclusion and usually you have to start at the top. You know, the CEO would be the one to be the catalyst for it. But then you you could never stop. Uh, you and you had to keep addressing it from different angles and different levels of the organization, and that was something of a surprise to us.

[00:22:15.92] spk_0:
One of the people suggest hiring people that are smarter than you and including for your board. And he says, I don’t remember who it is, But he says everybody around him is smarter than him and again, including board. Um, again, you know, that’s that goes back to vulnerability. I mean, obviously, these things overlap, but, you know, getting talented people who fill gaps, that of knowledge that you were in the institution don’t have.

[00:22:41.04] spk_4:
Yes, it takes a lot of humility. Yeah. T be able to really do that. You know, everybody says to say it, but it is much harder to do. In practice, you really have to be vulnerable and humble to be able to admit that you don’t have all the skills, and you certainly don’t have a lock on the intelligence. Ah, and that seems to be It seemed to us to us to be a theme.

[00:23:34.65] spk_0:
You mentioned the hiring and, um, terror. This one I do know came from Terra Berry, CEO of National Court appointed special advocates. And it was interesting. Very poignant that she herself was a foster child. I did some training for a casa in, uh, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, someplace many years ago. Plan giving training. Um, she likes the idea of having a series of interviews to demonstrate a candidate’s commitment.

[00:23:37.11] spk_4:
We thought that was brilliant.

[00:23:38.37] spk_0:
You’re dragging them through? Yeah, yeah. You don’t keep showing up. If you have the patience for this, you can tolerate our work.

[00:23:43.81] spk_4:
Yes, yes. I thought that was really, really interesting. It’s part of the higher slowly fire quickly. Right. But it takes higher slowly to a whole new level, right where you should You keep creating excuses for the person to come back. Of course, its course. You planned it out right? But they come and they talk to one person, and then they come back and they get a tour, and then they come back and they talk to another person. Then they come back and talk to a volunteer. Or And the idea is that if they and particularly the young person, that if they have the patience to stay with you through a process that takes a couple of months, right,

[00:24:20.00] spk_0:
so interesting. Yeah, there are a few a few months

[00:24:30.13] spk_4:
that this that this could really, um, weed out some of the young people who just need a job and don’t have any interest in your mission. and really have no interest in the nonprofit sector.

[00:24:40.17] spk_0:
Yeah, they’ll just they’ll just drop it. I can’t tolerate that. It’s six along. Okay, um, somebody talks about, and it may have been you and Linda autonomy in decision making, giving employees autonomy, authority to make decisions.

[00:25:27.84] spk_4:
So that’s another s o. You know, Now you’ve got the talented, passionate employees, right? And you want to keep them. Ah, and one of the best ways to keep them is to give them autonomy and shale. Pollack house Sharansky, who runs a bank Street College of education. Ah was most articulate. I thought about this idea. Um, he talks about having been a, um, assistant principal in a high school in Queens. Doesn’t really matter. Um, and his boss was really, really clear with him about where they were meeting point a where they want, where he wanted him to get to meeting point B, but giving him great latitude in how to get from point A to point B with point B again being very clearly defined with measurable with metric since and so on. And I think if you think about bright people, they tend not all of them but they tend to want to try things they don’t want to be told what to do all the time. Ah, they really want to have the space to make decisions themselves. And this is what this is. What is meant by having having autonomy in this in this sense, and it’s a really again. It’s a really, really great thing to aspire to. It’s harder to do.

[00:26:22.54] spk_0:
Yeah, you have to have a lot of faith in the people you have employed. You have hired, uh, you have to be willing to delegate and give degrees of freedom

[00:26:26.40] spk_4:
and not micromanage

[00:26:41.31] spk_0:
right and and accept failure because everybody is not gonna make it to point B. You know, they’re gonna get derailed sometimes. Um, all those things I mean those right, those are all difficult. But But you tell me essential for growth, right? For the organization, growth individuals,

[00:26:45.90] spk_4:
Absolutely. And the idea being that you’re not, it’s not like you’re not going to check in with them between points and be right, you know, so that the things we’re really going awry, you’re gonna know it pretty early on. Ah, but yes. The idea is that autonomy is a critical part of growing up as as an employee and executive.

[00:27:19.15] spk_0:
It’s, um it’s Tom. Tom Dent, a CEO of Ah, Hugh Mentum. Who who says Take work seriously? Not yourself. Right. More humility. More vulnerability?

[00:27:45.60] spk_4:
Well, yes. And allowing laughter. Laughter not in the workplace. Yeah, laughter in the workplace. And maybe not just laughter around you, but sometimes laughter at you. You know, you make a silly statement or, you know, think about it. Really takes a lot of emotional intelligence to be able to allow people to laugh with you slash at you.

[00:27:51.34] spk_0:
It’s hard to imagine that in an office.

[00:27:54.24] spk_5:
Uh, well,

[00:27:56.19] spk_4:
I I’ve actually been in on it.

[00:28:27.44] spk_0:
That’s why I’m not an employee anymore. Wrong. I pick the wrong places. I would be a terrible employee. Now. I’m so autonomous that I would shoot myself in the interview just in an interview stage. I would, um, but yeah. No, I I’m thinking of the two CEOs. Yeah, there was No. Yeah. Now they would not have tolerated that, but it does with the nineties to, um Yeah, I mean, just yeah, don’t just just just be personable. I mean, just be a person nobody expects in this culture. We don’t We don’t expect perfection from our from our leaders.

[00:28:34.35] spk_4:
No. Well, maybe some people. D’oh! Ah, But what? We’re arguing that you that you don’t need to and that you shouldn’t.

[00:31:06.62] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software designed from the bottom up. Four Non profits. What does that mean for you? It’s got what nonprofits need. Like fund accounting grant and donor management. Exceptional customer support. Fraud prevention. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take Two. The Legacy fallacy. I’ve been seeing this for years. Uh, plan giving promotional materials that talk about the potential donors legacy will help you plan your legacy. Uh, think about your legacy legacy giving on it. It got to the my, uh, front of my consciousness because I just did a webinar recently, and one of the questions lead with the premise that, you know, I know we have to talk about legacy giving, but and then he went on to ask, ask the rest of the question Um and I, uh I disagreed with his premise that you have to talk about legacy giving, and I disagree with the whole idea that legacy should be an important part of your plan giving promotion. I’ve had thousands of conversations with people in their sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, and very, very rarely I can’t even remember. But I’m gonna I’m just assuming it’s come up once or twice, but it’s extraordinarily rare. Folks are just not thinking of themselves as leaving a legacy, creating a legacy. If your donors are, uh, George Soros or Donald Trump, they probably think of legacy. The average doner, the average plan gift donor. I hardly ever hear it. I can’t remember a time that I did, but I’m being generous. Um, it is not essential to talk about legacy giving, and I don’t think it’s right. I think it’s a mistake. That’s not what your donors are thinking about themselves as a legacy. They just think of themselves as donors as supporting your cause. In their estate plan. There’s more on the video and the video. You know where the video is. It’s called the Legacy fallacy, and it’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Stick to let us continue with Vivian Hexter and big impact.

[00:31:27.78] spk_0:
Thank you, Vivian Dexter for obliging me. Ah, well, I do that. Thank everybody. Vivian. Of course. Co author of the book with Linda Hartley. Big impact. Um, there are consultancy is H two growth strategies dot com. Um, yeah. So I have someone I want to ask you about. That I think you blew it. The company name age to grow. It should be a TSH to grow. You should stop hte and then you get the water. Get the H two grand. I get the h two Hexter and Hartley. I get that h to grow. We should be h to grow And then we feed your roots We water your leaves. I don’t You know you could It’s to grow.

[00:31:47.90] spk_4:
Oh, wow. What? We’ll have to We’ll have to look and see

[00:31:49.89] spk_0:
take and should be h to grow

[00:31:51.72] spk_4:
Yeah, you’d be surprised by how difficult it is. Or maybe you wouldn’t be to get a girl that’s not taken

[00:32:41.24] spk_0:
tony-martignetti dot com was not to Ah, wasn’t is not very popular. Now I got to compete with the martignetti liquor dynasty up in the Boston Massachusetts era. Uh, you said you You told me earlier. You vacation on Cape Time? God, Do you know the martignetti liquor dynasty? A liquor stores, maybe. All right, there. They’re up there. You direct their supermarkets of liquor. Maybe Maybe our listeners. A lot of the settlers in Somerville, Mass. May know them, but these air supermarkets not just look corner stores. And but I got tony-martignetti dot com. I don’t know. Maybe they don’t have any Tony’s I don’t know. Um, I couldn’t get martignetti dot com They have that, uh, liquor barons. Okay. Um, I was also gonna owe Gilda’s club. Yeah, the red doors. Yeah. Yeah. You were CEO of Guilt for years.

[00:32:55.70] spk_4:
I waas and ah, it’s a wonderful organization. It’s now part of the wellness community. It merged with the wellness community after I left. At the time, we had maybe

[00:33:03.95] spk_0:
drive it into the ground, did it then? That’s why they merge. Know that there were There were inference. You made the inference available. I want us. I want to feel

[00:33:45.36] spk_4:
Yeah. Okay, go for it. So there were about 30 Gilda’s clubs throughout North America and I had to visit everyone. Ah, and we I inherited an organization where the founder and principal funder was us was beginning to, um, not want to be the sole supporter of the organization any longer, okay? And so we had to build the board, and I have a board that would really contribute in fundraise a significant amount. And we, um we doubled the revenue in the time I was there. We developed? Yeah, it was It was a good It’s a wonderful organization, you know? It provides emotional and social support for people with cancer, Their families and friends.

[00:34:13.51] spk_0:
Yes. Oh, families and friends, too. I was just for the cancer patient survivor. No, not true. Okay, um let’s see, uh, what would you like to talk about? I have other topics. I want good, But what what strikes you about all these 47 interviews? What? What moves you the most?

[00:34:16.64] spk_4:
It was inspiring to talk to these leaders.

[00:34:19.59] spk_0:
Inspiration? That’s one of things I want to talk about. All right.

[00:34:29.51] spk_4:
It’s really, really inspiring. I mean, Thio be able. You know, we asked some fairly intimate questions like, What’s the What’s the worst and best thing that’s ever happened to you in your life? And what did

[00:34:36.91] spk_0:
you mean? What’s your definition of happiness. Yes. You know, all these interviews face to face,

[00:34:40.80] spk_4:
many of them were face to face. Any

[00:34:42.79] spk_0:
of them were my phone probably tried to do face. We tried to do it face to

[00:36:07.53] spk_4:
face. Yes, but even even on the phone, right. These and and in many in most instances, in some instances, wth e leaders had asked to see the questions beforehand. But in some instances, they had not seen them. So they were really kind of, um uh, we got there sort of their raw, fresh first response to some of these questions and it really the way that many of them have turned tragedy into achievement into empathy into mission. It’s really you mentioned Tara Perry at the National Casa. Ah, and you know Leon Botstein at Bard College, whose daughter was killed when she was seven years old, crossing the street to get to the bus. Ah, and he, you know, that was early on in his time at Bard. And, uh, he said, you know, his first impulse was to throw himself out the window, but what he did was he built, barred into really ah force to be reckoned with and and highly innovative place. You know, they were the first to teach in prisons, or among the first Ah, they were They haven’t this early college, which they now have not just in the U. S. But around the world where kids can earn associate degrees in there. Four years of high school. Ah, and so is highly innovative place. Um And he So I one has to believe, right, that he took that tragedy and sort of turned that took that anger, energy, whatever, and put it into building barred into the institution that it is

[00:36:22.65] spk_0:
for Children. I mean, well, not for for for college students, but you know that his child never got to be

[00:36:28.16] spk_4:
Yes, yes. Oh, yes. So So it’s really was really inspiring to to hear this, to hear that wisdom and to hear how willing these, uh, leaders were to share with us. So that was another thing that surprised us. We knew a few of them before, but most of them we didn’t know and ah, and we only had I would say, of all the people we asked, we only had one or two turndowns, and that was a very you know, like high level, Incredibly busy. So

[00:36:59.73] spk_0:
let’s not focus on the one or two.

[00:37:01.13] spk_4:
No, no, no, no. But my point is that

[00:37:03.75] spk_0:
going to share

[00:37:08.84] spk_4:
willing to share And I think partially again because people don’t ask non profit leaders a lot about their strategies and their insight. They ask corporate leaders, right, not non profit leaders. So to be able to talk about what was important to them and how they got into where they are and what they see for the future was really, um, really felt good to them. Ah, and and we’re hopeful that the people who read the book will want to learn more about some of these organizations and possibly support

[00:37:59.65] spk_0:
them At least let it certainly learned and get inspired by the book. Get the book, for Pete’s sake. It sze called big impact. Um, just get the thing, you know, we can’t We can’t cover it all in an hour. Um, now No, she she endorses. No, certainly not. Um, persistence. Another another ah. Topic you get you to talk about, um somebody says somebody says, Oh, this is ah, Evan Wolfson, president of Freedom to Marry. You cannot win every battle, but Lou’s forward. What you talking about,

[00:39:22.67] spk_4:
what he’s saying? For So, for example, so a freedom to marry Waas, one of the key organizations in winning legalization of gay marriage, equality. And Evan worked on this for 32 years from the time he wrote his law school thesis about it. And I have to say he Evan is brilliant. Ah, and he described to us some of the strategies that freedom to marry and its coalition used to win gay marriage. And when he talks about losing forward, want an example of that is going to the South and having an having activity campaigns in the South, even though he knew they knew it would be much more difficult to get people in the South to really before gay marriage. But they knew they had to engage with the people in the South. They had to engage all over the country. And, um, the same is true, you know, in certain cultures, arm or conservative, like the Latino culture. Ah, and they engage. They had they had campaigns with Latinos, they had campaigns with African Americans, and they just kept pushing forward, even though again they knew that they weren’t gonna win everybody’s. They weren’t gonna win all hearts and minds, right? Onley only enough to make it happen.

[00:40:30.86] spk_0:
So there’s the inspiration. He worked on this for over 30 years of his law school thesis. Yes, Excuse me. And, um, you know, there’s there’s someone who’s been on the show. Paul Lo Big wrote a book called The Impossible Will Take a little while. You know, you have to stay with this somebody someone of one of the people you you interview says that a profound change takes time. That might have been you. And Linda said that a profound change takes time. Um, but you know, that’s part of the inspiration that, to me that which feeding that is the, uh, the vision that the leader brings to the organization and and the incremental steps toward that vision, whether it’s eliminating poverty, you know, in ah, in metropolitan Boston, you know, whatever it is that that commitment division and then and bringing people together who said who loved who support that vision and are willing to work at it for 30 years

[00:40:38.24] spk_4:
and celebrate the small victories right and and really be good at doing that. Celebrate the small victories and making sure that your people are taking care of themselves so that they don’t get burnt out.

[00:40:56.79] spk_0:
Life balance. Yeah, One of your I think it’s I have a bill. Bill Uhlfelder talks about life balance and says, If you’re if you’re waiting to get kind of connected your family over vacations and sabbaticals, you know, you’re you’re losing your family. Yes. Balance, right? Yes. It’s essential for persistence.

[00:41:24.28] spk_4:
Well, it is. It is. So this is one where our leaders were sort of all over the map. Okay? Most of them were striving for work. Life balance, right, Most of them. And then a few were unapologetically workaholic. And one said, um, there’s no such thing as work, life, balance. There’s just life, and work is a part of it. That was Larry Kramer at the William

[00:41:33.98] spk_0:
and Flora Hewlett Foundation. No, life is a part of it. All right, That’s fair. That’s yes. That’s a decent Balan,

[00:41:38.49] spk_4:
right? I objective. Yes. Yeah, I think I think Larry works pretty hard.

[00:41:49.72] spk_0:
Okay. Um all right, well, yeah. Um, it’s something. It’s a life practice.

[00:41:51.32] spk_4:
Absolutely. I’m I’m sort of joking. Yes, we. We believe that work life balance is essential, particularly when you’re working on seemingly intractable problems that will take a while to solve.

[00:42:03.00] spk_0:
Impossible will take a little while. All right,

[00:42:30.00] spk_3:
Time for our last break. Do you ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they worked to build relationships with journalists. Who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do that. Their former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage there at turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for big impact

[00:43:05.74] spk_0:
animated and then bring it back down. What a talent on what? A talent. It’s just unfortunate that one took prompting. Um, okay, so yes, we’re striving for balance. It’s a life’s practice. Don’t give it up. I mean, don’t just don’t just, ah, surrender and say my family’s gotta wait. No, My loved ones have to rate my friends, even friends go to your go to a college reunion now and then. High school reunion now and then connect. Yes. Okay. Anything. What? You want to say that Yes, like you’re exhausted. It It’s just essential right?

[00:43:07.96] spk_4:
It’s it’s essential, but both Linda and I believe strongly in it.

[00:43:34.70] spk_0:
I was just at a college reunion last weekend. Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon. Uh oh. Fraternity. A bunch of guys got together. So it’s on my mind on my mind. And plus I’m always admonishing. I probably am. I’m not just encouraging are probably I’m admonishing. That’s I think that’s the right word. Listeners through the show and videos like sometimes wag my finger in a video. Um, take time for yourself. You know, if you want to give your in a giving profession if you want to give effectively, I think you have to take yes. And taking is being selfish and taking time for yourself and your family, and sometimes even just for yourself, like quiet solitude kind of time. If you want to give, I believe you have to take

[00:43:51.55] spk_4:
yes, yes, and all too often I think in nonprofits, the feeling of there’s great. Believe it, feeling of intensity about having to accomplish the mission. So it’s hard to to do that to take the time that is essential

[00:44:16.57] spk_0:
you got. And you gotta make the time, right? Yeah, Zach is gonna find it. I can never find the time. Yeah, well, time is not gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, here I am. You found me. You gotta affirmatively make the time. Yes, yes. Don’t keep trying to find it. No, not gonna. It’s not gonna make itself apparent to, you

[00:44:23.13] spk_4:
know. And it’ll be uncomfortable at first to take the time.

[00:44:28.04] spk_0:
Yeah, right. The first time you may

[00:44:30.12] spk_4:
be the first half doesn’t

[00:44:48.63] spk_0:
I’m abandoning ship. Yeah. How are they gonna get along without Yeah? Well, you need to have the humility to recognize that they can write. All right. See how this all fits together. Just get the book, for God’s sake, it so it all fits together. Um, okay. Uh, you mentioned Larry Kramer Hewlett Foundation, did you not? Yes. Is it? He says relationships matter in this in this persistence and, um, drive toward mission. You know, relationships talk about relationships.

[00:45:25.55] spk_4:
So what Larry is saying, it actually is that for him, life is all about relationships. It’s more than just the mission, right? You know, it is the mission, but to him, it’s it’s That’s what That’s what it’s about. And I think it’s particularly important in the nonprofit world because so many of the missions of the organizations that we work in are have social missions right there about either caring for people or teaching people to care for themselves. Or and so it’s really, really important to be able to relate well to people because there’s also the fact that in the nonprofit sector you can’t play. P pent can’t pay people top dollar Ah, and so there have to there have to be other benefits toe working inside a non profit. And one of those is having caring relationships with the people you work with

[00:45:59.34] spk_0:
and also organizational relationships. Partnering type Liz Yes, lash out that

[00:46:42.37] spk_4:
because these days, right? So number one funders like partnerships increasingly. And you know, we have lots and lots of non profits in this country over a 1,000,000 of them, and maybe a few too many on the ah lot of the missions of those organizations are complimentary on, and so I think it’s really incumbent on organizations to make strategic partnerships a priority. It’s it’s it’s It’s critical not only because funding is limited, because funders like partnerships, but because you get more done for less money.

[00:47:07.14] spk_0:
Yeah. There’s a synergy. Yes. Uh, we’ve had guests on talking about how to find the right partners. Get your board by in the board. The board process of formal partnerships and things. Um, yes. All right. So explore those, you know, Think about those, um, So I’m gonna turn back to you. Let’s talk about something that interests you in the book that we haven’t talked about yet. Great. You know, gets all your book. She’s she’s I feel I feel bad for the guests to bring notes or but she’s in that Vivian doesn’t know what she’s been clutching her book, but they never get a chance to read the notes. They bring them, they feel security. I tell them they won’t have time. They hold the notes anyway. And then, um, they never get a chance to look at them because, you know, because we’re having a conversation. What did you find? You. You peruse your table of contents? Yes, I did.

[00:47:43.08] spk_4:
I did. So I I want to go back to Evan Wolfson because I really think that if you read the interview with Evan Wolfson that that interview is kind of a lesson in how to make social change evidence. The on Lee, one of the 47 leaders who has accomplished his mission completely and disbanded his organization.

[00:47:59.77] spk_0:
That’s that’s telling that never happens. Usually, organizations expand to find a new mission.

[00:49:28.46] spk_4:
So Evan now is, ah, high level advisor to other countries around the world that where people are trying to get gay marriage legalized, and he also consults to some. I think now he’s consulting to immigration organizations in this country to try to help them. Ah, but he no longer has an organization himself, and I think his, um the the understanding, how freedom to marry and it’s coalitions achieved. The mission is it’s really instructive. It’s really a It’s like a primer in how to make positive social change. Because he did, he did all of it. They got He got really clear about the goal. That’s one of the principles and learned how to articulate it persuasively and and specifically, at a certain point, learned that if you made it about, um, the legal aspect of of gay marriage in the public eye, it was not gonna be as effective as if you talked about giving people um, make having people be ableto love who they wanted to love. At a certain point in the campaign, they really switched the way they talked about gay marriage, and that was really critical to it becoming possible. Uh, and then another principle is build. So you have to campaign on many fronts you have, and you have to build broad based coalition.

[00:49:36.39] spk_0:
Let’s talk about the many fronts. That’s a section of the book. Yeah,

[00:50:30.83] spk_4:
so the the idea is that you really this is sort of the partnership idea is part of part of this, that you can’t do it alone and that if you’re not striving to influence the private sector and government, which are the two dominant sectors in our economy, then you’re really not going to make lasting social change. And so you have to work with those sectors. You have to learn how to talk to those sectors on, and, um, and you have to be working on lots of different levels all at once, because otherwise it’s not gonna happen. And that includes, um, working with faith based organizations, which some people, some organizations, know how to do, and others don’t but and again. Leon Botstein at Bard makes a really, really interesting point about this. He says that somehow a lot of us, particularly on the coast, I guess have sort of decided that, um, faith based organizations are not important anymore that, you know, because of the increasing secularization of our society that we don’t need to worry about them. But the truth is that they’re very particularly in the middle of the

[00:50:55.18] spk_0:
country. So that may be true in some parts of very powerful on a vast board,

[00:51:15.10] spk_4:
right? Very, very powerful. And we And if you really want to make social change in your community, you’re gonna have to work with those organizations because they’re often the ones that are already working on it, right? They have. They have the soup kitchen. They have the, um, the homeless shelter. You know, they’re they’re already actively engaged in making change or taking care of the people in their communities. And so you really have to reach out to them.

[00:51:57.41] spk_0:
And they’re in the community there. Yes, there the communities, they know the local leaders, whether they’re the official leaders of the unofficial leaders, if you want to work in it, Yeah. If you wanna make real change and work in the grassroots, you need to know who the unofficial leaders are. Direct in the community. Yes. And your faith based the the organization’s Know that stuff? Yes. There, there, they’ve been They’ve been there for decades and generations. Yes. Okay. Um, yeah. So you Ah, you’re sort of where we just have a couple minutes left together. What? What struck you about some of the questions you got answers. You got to the question. You asked everybody. How do you define happiness?

[00:52:43.25] spk_4:
So, you know, it’s Ah, that’s a highly personal question, right? I mean, in the sense in the sense that it’s different for everyone and some of our leaders, because their lives are so frenetic, all they want is peace and quiet. To them, that’s happiness. But that’s regal. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then for some, it’s being with their families and, you know, spending time with the people they love. Ah, and you know, interestingly when we had not a lot of them said, um, you know, happiness is sitting at my desk for 12 hours a day for

[00:52:51.10] spk_0:
a lot of money or

[00:52:52.24] spk_4:
a lot of No, no, that not this group. Not this girl. Now and again. That’s part of the emotional intelligence, right? Isn’t understanding what really makes life worth living, which is relationships and meaningful work and all of those things.

[00:53:11.60] spk_0:
Okay, um, let’s see. What do you love about the work you’re doing?

[00:53:24.08] spk_4:
Well, I’ve always been mission driven tony out. You know, I got an MBA, and I tried to work in the corporate world, but I wasn’t happy. And Senator, Lord and Taylor, I was there in that fire lord, and then I was that I was at best foods as a product manager. Didn’t work. No. No. And so what really makes me happy is, um, is helping to make positive change in the world. I mean, that’s and helping the underdog. I’ve always wanted to help the underdog.

[00:54:01.32] spk_0:
You gotta leave it there. All right. She’s Vivian Dexter. Get the book, For God’s sake. It’s called big Impact insights and strategies from America’s Big Impact Insights and Stories. Who wrote strategies. I needed an intern to blame for this insights and stories from America’s non profit leaders. If I had an intern, they’d be fired. If you want to recommend anybody, Let me know.

[00:54:37.28] spk_3:
Next week it Zombie loyalists with Peter Shankman. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Creative

[00:54:50.27] spk_2:
producer is clear. My off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that information, Scotty With me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

[00:55:16.89] spk_7:
talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

[00:55:33.32] spk_2:
Do you run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, The entrepreneurial Web tune in every Friday at noon, Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. Right here on Fridays at noon, talk radio dot N.Y.C.,

[00:56:02.75] spk_5:
aptly named host of tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% fundraising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at tony-martignetti non profit radio Fridays 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com

[00:56:32.09] spk_8:
Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com

[00:56:46.35] spk_9:
Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant, Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s 12 noon on talk radio dot N.Y.C..

[00:57:30.60] spk_8:
You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting 24 hours a day.

[00:58:00.21] spk_6:
Do you love? Or are you intrigued about New York City and its neighborhoods? I’m Jeff Goodman, host of Rediscovering New York Weekly showed that showcases New York’s history, and it’s extraordinary neighborhoods. Every Tuesday live at 7 p.m. We focus on a particular neighborhood and explore its history. It’s vibe. It’s field and its energy tune and live every Tuesday at 7 p.m. On talk radio Die N.Y.C..

[00:58:10.36] spk_0:
You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network.