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Nonprofit Radio for May 29, 2020: Fundraising 401

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Laurence Pagnoni: Fundraising 401
That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising. That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising.

 

 

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[00:01:53.32] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go into Borba Rig mus if you upset my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show. Fundraising for 01 That’s Lawrence Paige non EA’s latest book. It’s a series of master classes for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in non profit management and fundraising. Tony Stick, You planning for reopening were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a real pleasure to welcome back Lawrence Pack tony Teoh non profit radio. He is chairman of Lap A fundraising serving non profits throughout the world, roughly 25 clients at a time. He’s got 35 years in the sector as executive director and fundraising council, his latest book published this year is fundraising for, 01 master classes in non profit fundraising That would make Peter Drucker proud. The company is at lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Welcome lap. If the firm was lapper your lab, right,

[00:02:00.79] spk_0:
we tripped upon the acronym years and years ago. We always use the full Lawrence Ape Agnone Associates. And

[00:02:07.26] spk_1:
as I remember,

[00:02:08.24] spk_0:
one day, we just had written lap on this and that had good alliteration. We should use that.

[00:02:18.28] spk_1:
Okay, you went the way of ah, of, um, Triple A and ah, and AARP. You know, they don’t You’re not, You know, Lawrence, tape Agnone Associates anymore. Your lap. That’s right. Okay, it’s the It’s the 21st century now. Alright.

[00:02:38.44] spk_0:
But there’s also a mini lesson there for non profits about, uh, branding. Um, trying to get it right at the beginning is important, but good. The difference between good branding and great branding is the width of the Grand Canyon. Um and so I didn’t ever want to venture into rebranding it without great council, which I’ve never been able to afford.

[00:03:29.74] spk_1:
So you stumbled on lap and we evolved, you know, you? Yes, it’s proof that the greatness doesn’t come out in the beginning. You can’t plan all the greatness in the beginning. It has to as to organically come about. So it’s been like 6.5 years. You were on the, uh, your for your first book, the non profit fundraising solution. You are on non profit radio on November 8th, 2013. Wow, when that book was new, seven years ago on dhe. Now, your second, um so let’s let’s get into it. Uh, why does, uh, what is management consultant Peter Drucker belong in the title?

[00:05:16.64] spk_0:
Ah, Homage to Peter Drucker taught me how to think. Ah, well, I guess the Jesuits would take the first bow for that. But Peter Drucker, Um, I was a Peter Drucker fellow in the 19 nineties here in New York City. And it was Peter who taught me how to integrate fundraising into organizational development. Besides just being a great part human being, he was a brilliant strategist and thinker. He of course, wrote the original bulk on reengineering General Motors, and but he spent the last years of his life focused on the what he called the higher profit sector what we call the nonprofit sector. But he, uh he thought that if there wasn’t a coalescing off the non profit sectors values with the business sector, that society would be deficient for for that not happening. So, um, actually, when I started writing this book, um, I didn’t realize the degree to which drug Harry and thinking had Dominy eat it. My own thinking. And it was about a dozen chapters in that my editor said you use Drucker an awful lot. I said, tell me how many times? And then I was, like, astounded. And, um and then I I added that little no. Oh, my him

[00:05:23.14] spk_1:
And And Drucker had the book managing the non profit organization. Yeah. He was committed to the to the sector. To what he got what he called the higher profit. Is that what he called it? The higher profit

[00:05:31.64] spk_0:
profit Peter Drucker?

[00:05:33.28] spk_1:
There it is. And all right,

[00:05:48.29] spk_0:
I’m Crawford organization. It’s been on my desk since 19 91. I think, um, and I read and re read it as I hope you will do my book fund raising for a one coming forward.

[00:05:49.64] spk_1:
Yes. Ive replayed your show on the first book three times since 2013. So I have you, tony. It’s a go to for still is for people who asked me, How do I get the next level? I get that question every maybe a couple times a month. Maybe not that often sometimes, but I recommend the book for how to get to the next level. It’s a It’s a very systematic and sensible approach.

[00:06:27.36] spk_0:
The, uh, the fundraising, The nonprofit fundraising solution was the pros of fundraising. But fundraising for a one is really the poetry. It’s more the art of fundraising, whereas the other one was the science.

[00:06:31.39] spk_1:
Yeah, you say that and you talk about the art and science and one of your chapters. But you talk about growing into answers and moving to a better set of problems with both of which sound artistic talk about that growing into answers and better set of problems.

[00:08:00.24] spk_0:
Well, oftentimes, nonprofits What? There, there. Uh, there’s not enough room in scopes of service, you know, you hire a fundraiser to fundraise and you define a scope of service but a really advanced fundraising system. Once it gets going, it has to look carefully at what the owners are saying. What the institutional funders are saying, Ah, what is working in social media and what’s not for one of our large clients connected with Johns Hopkins University? They weren’t able to raise any money online. And he, um, change the way they approached social Media. And within the first year, they had an extra $100,000 from their social media program. Um, so figuring out as you go long, um, more efficient ways and building that creativity in is very important. And, um, um, and defining it too rigidly. Uh uh, shuts that down.

[00:09:16.36] spk_1:
I did like a better set of problems. No, you tell an anecdote. You, for some reason aboard, was getting involved in whether to buy a fax machine. Let’s not get into whether board should even be deciding whether by fax you. But, you know, you just went out and bought the damn thing yourself. Now the fax machines, not communicating with our donors back when facts that this was many years ago, not communicating with donors and our funders is not a problem, but so that that was for me, that was okay. Better set of problems Let’s not deal with the damn fax machine. I’ll buy it. And now let’s deal with communications. It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. We received RP PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven from your Pee Pee Pee loan? You need to apply for that. It’s not automatic forgiveness. Get the details from the C P, a firm we trust. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to fundraising for 01

[00:10:33.97] spk_0:
But here’s a Here’s a more sophisticated, better set of problems. Let’s say right now you don’t know who you’re monthly donors are or your plan donors are, and you do research to figure out. Maybe a lot of nonprofits don’t know the date of birth of their donors. So let’s say you do research and you integrate just the date of birth into your donor database and you’re able to segment. Um, you know, suddenly you discover, as is the case with one of our clients on, I remember your rule about the difference between active and a passive plan giving program that they discovered they had 750 people over age 65. They were. They were not aware of that until they had their date of birth. And so now they have a better set of problems. They’re able to think about planned giving because they know they have a donor segment. That is ah, that matches that. So that is my definition of organizational growth, too. But a lot of of of us that we have the same problem over and over again, and that is being stuck. And I wrote this book to tease out ways to get unstuck, Um, and to try some new things within your thinking. First and foremost, this is a book about how to think about fundraising,

[00:10:45.37] spk_1:
a series of revelations, Syria’s revolution. So So we’ll talk about a bunch of them. You you talk about, uh, fundraising as, ah analogized Teoh. Dating, dating relationships. No, se little about that.

[00:13:19.24] spk_0:
Sure. So when two people meet, they have to learn what the other person’s up for. They have to learn their values, their mutual sexual attraction, their ability to work on and solve problems together. Now, absent the mutual sexual attraction, the same applies to getting to know your donors putting your donors first, uh, listening funders. Pushing back a little bit with your funders about what you’re really needs are having conversations that are thoughtful. And, um so, uh, getting to know the the revenue streams that you’re working through is just similar to dating, but without the sexual romantic energy listening, listening is critical and mentioned listening. And if you’re not sympathetic, simpatico if you’re not simpatico, um, like, uh, one donor who Who? I was trying to get a six figure gift from four teenage pregnancy prevention program. I’ve been telling this story for years. So pardoned, if you’ve heard it. But it was such a rich experience for me, you know, right early in the conversation, he said, You know, um, I don’t believe teen age should be having sex, and I just let the silence sit there. Of course, inside myself, I’m thinking, you know, e, I just lost the gift, but I just listened Ah, in a posture of tell me more. And then he said, I think honest peak, tony must two minutes must have passed. I really was starting to sweat a little bit, and then he said, but I that not chewy. And, uh, and the clients you serve need the kind of program that your agency is recommending. So let’s talk about how that would work. And so he was up for it, But he was starting from a place of his own, you know, position, but showing flexibility about thinking. So he was up for the dating relationship?

[00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Well, well, what may be the one night stand, but that you have that you have that story in the book. And he gay ended up giving $25,000 right? Because you were a good listener. So maybe that was a one time gift. So now,

[00:13:39.73] spk_0:
no, no, he gave for three years.

[00:13:53.54] spk_1:
I did. All right, All right. So it was a short term relationship. All right. All right. Um, our product, our product is impact. What’s that about?

[00:15:07.06] spk_0:
Well, too many people confuse that they’re giving to your non profit. You know, the bread for the world or partners and Hells or whatever the name of the non profit is, donors don’t give to your non profit. They give for the mission and the impact. And you have to be clear about, you know, with your gift will be ableto have more of an impact. Here’s the impact we’ve had. Here’s the aspirational impact that we’re looking for. Um, Bill, Sure, from share Our strength has been a real role model in the nonprofit sector. Ah, for talking about the rial overhead costs that we should be advocating before to really get the job done, He asked the provocative question, Um, if would you be satisfied if my overhead were 5%? But I didn’t feed All the hungry people came to me. Nurses. If it was 35% and I did feed them all, which would you prefer? And, ah, that that is a good question. And you could each agency could have their version of that, um, to talk about aspirational goals and, um, and and if because if you don’t define them, no one in no one else’s

[00:15:33.44] spk_1:
and you talk about the importance of measuring impact. Yeah, knowing what your return on investment is your r a y ah nde communicating, sharing that it’s it’s critical.

[00:17:02.98] spk_0:
Yes. So having not just an evaluation program that complies with the funders requirements as so many government contracts do, but having a new evaluation program that helps the staff make management decisions about what programs are working and what are not. When I was the non profit CEO of Harlem United for six years, our data showed us that are substance abuse case management program did okay, but what really kept people in sobriety was our pastoral counseling and pastoral care program. Because the clients it was it was nondenominational. It was a healing experience. And it had twice the amount of ah, of sobriety retention as our substance abuse counseling program did. If we hadn’t been looking at the data, we wouldn’t have known that. And so we took that news to religious oriented funders and hired three more pastoral counsellors and built a partnership with Hospital Chaplaincy Inc. Who trains pastoral counsellors. And, um, we have had, uh, we had a strong spike in sobriety amongst our clients. It was really quite beautiful. And it’s lasted for years,

[00:17:36.69] spk_1:
all from understanding what your data is revealing what your true impact is. Yeah. All right. You you mentioned staff were jumping around a little bit, but you you highlight that Ah used to think that clients should come first. But now you feel its staff should come first. Retention strategies, professional development. I don’t know if you mentioned mentoring, but that always comes up, you know, talk about investments and investments that are that need to be made in staff. And why you think staff is number one now,

[00:20:24.54] spk_0:
boy, if I come a long way as a as an advocate for the poor from being a teenager, Um, when I worked in a volunteer in a soup kitchen myself, thanks to my good old Teamster union dad, um, I never wavered from clients first, and, uh, but, um, it’s not that I’m saying clients take a back seat. I’m saying that if we make staff, primary clients will be better served ma staff retention that nonprofits is alarming. And worse yet, Ah, younger generations, um, leave the sector faster than our generation. Those of us in our fifties, they leave the sector faster. Um, because they have a bad experience with a board or the the poor. Compensation is not livable for their family. So but it’s not just about the conditions of employment. It’s also about is the non profit a learning environment A learning organization here at lap of fundraising we have just 1/2 a dozen shared values within our firm and professional development and advancement is, um is one of them, and we pay every year, every staff person has a professional development plan, right, and we pay for it. And, um, we’re happy to do it. Um, because people are staff will tell you. You know, we aspire whether we succeed at it completely, I don’t have to ask them, but we aspire to be a learning organization, not just learning on our accounts, but learning from best practices in the field and colleagues we bring colleagues in, um, we’re big into what’s called the any a gram in our workplace. It’s a it’s ah, it’s an emotional intelligence system for the workplace that that helps people understand how there are clients are viewing the world how they’re built. The India graham dot Any a gram institute dot or ge. I believe, um, would introduce you to it has some videos there,

[00:21:00.94] spk_1:
so we need to overcome Leave behind this idea that professional development technology to support staff. You know that these air luxuries, you know, we’re way cut. Being a couple of operating systems behind is okay, because it’s more important that we spend our money on the people or the programs. You know, that’s that’s that’s outdated, thinking you and what we’re seeing in terms of younger folks leaving the sector is bearing out that bearing out out. That’s evidence that we’re not providing what they’re looking for. So they try one or two jobs and then they leave. That’s that’s not talk about not sustainable.

[00:21:26.64] spk_0:
I could just hear some of your audience members saying asked Lawrence to tell me where to find money for technology improvements or, UM, or professional development.

[00:21:28.69] spk_1:
All right, well, good. You’re channeling the audience like Ideo. Ask the other. Answer them.

[00:23:19.64] spk_0:
It’s hard. Um, I know what what we do is we build it into our overhead rate and where we can we try to get so many nonprofits have such a low overhead rate, and that’s again back with Bill Shore was talking about, um, some government contracts actually curb you at 10% and most nonprofits haven’t overhead rate at least a 23 24% and arguably it should be probably close to the 35. I think all the major universities are somewhere north of 50% overhead. So trying to get it into your overhead and then, of course, looking form or general operating support by identifying donor advised funds, which, by definition, as you know tony, are hidden. There are profiles you could use to assume that somebody probably has a donor advised fund. We do that nor prospect research. And then, of course, we asked directly when we’re talking to them or serving them. So people who have donor advised funds are very friendly to, you know, odd costs or what? You know what the As contrast that to institutional funders where you get a grant for your program. Sometimes in those grants you can add a computer. You can say we need, you know, 40 hours of professional development. So integrating it into all your fund raising on into your overhead rate has worked with many of our clients. Um And then, of course, there’s rare occasions when on our f p is issued where you can ask for things like that.

[00:23:31.02] spk_1:
Uh huh. You doesn’t work with sterile needle exchange. Just talk about that a little bit. That sounds like a good story.

[00:24:36.14] spk_0:
Yeah, Harm reduction. Um, again, a better set of problems. Um, it’s better toe. Have needle. Ah, needle users use clean needles, then toe Have them keep using dirty needles because it reduces the spread off HIV and STDs. Ah, and blood born infections. Um, so that’s a better harm. Reduction is a better set of problems with science behind it. And, um, this is true not just in the United States, but in, uh, all throughout the world and European countries who have harm reduction policies. Harm reduction is still needed. It it’s kind of fallen out of fashion. There’s just a handful, maybe two or three funders who are interested in it. The drug policy alliance is still interested in it. And the Komer Foundation, if if they’re still around,

[00:24:40.50] spk_1:
what was What was your work in harm reduction?

[00:25:29.42] spk_0:
Uh, well, I had, uh, helped, um, the New York harm reduction Educators in the Bronx form a hotline so that people could reach them, and, uh, we went to check cashing stores. Um, where the poor, The poor in the Bronx generally don’t use a bank. They pay to have their check cashed, which is a scandal unto itself, but its exorbitant if we would expand the United States Postal Service is toe what it was in the 19 fifties. They they wouldn’t have have that. There’s a direct link between the reduction of the role of the U. S Postal Service in its role with money orders and check cashing and the the upswing of these four profit sleazy check cashing.

[00:25:38.50] spk_1:
Interesting. All right, we’re

[00:26:04.35] spk_0:
but any way went to the check cashing places. And yes, we paid them. We had to pay them when they cashed the cheque to put our business card for the the New York Harm Reduction Educators with 1 800 number on And we saw, on average, 800 new enrollees into the non profit to get access to HIV prevention and treatment service is

[00:27:17.24] spk_1:
I did. I did work in Philadelphia when I was in law school with an organization called Prevention Point, Philadelphia. It was it was a grassroots, sterile needle exchange. Excuse me. They were going toe parks in areas where they knew drug activity was high on weekends and literally distributing marked sterile needles marked so that they knew when they got their own back so they could had some. They had a measure of effectiveness. How many sterile needles were coming back and how maney unmarked needles So dirty needles they were getting off the streets, and that was incredibly rewarding. It was an internship, but just to see the the father’s walk up or drive up with a young child in tow and, you know, taking 1/2 a dozen needles and giving us 1/2 a dozen. Uh, but I know the statistics are there that it reduces on. This was 1989 1990. Uh, no. HIV was much more dangerous than it is now.

[00:28:41.54] spk_0:
And he’s here. You see in art in the conversation right now between tony and I, how a fund raiser discovers his or her product to sell. This is what fundraisers do at the highest level. We listen to the caseworkers to the clients, to the statistics to the the best practice studies, for example, with a affordable housing program that I’m starting to work within Orlando, Florida The executive director was blown away because the first thing we were starting to do is we’ve read 10 years worth of completely boring but totally relevant thinking from the Orlando Housing Authority about their needs assessments. They do them, they’re required to do them every 10 years. And those documents are chock full with with really good data. Um, I mean, that’s something to be a proud of in our country is we still have some semblance of these local civic governments that are doing their due diligence about community need. Um, but this is how fundraisers then get a very powerful case for support develop. Um, and uh huh. That’s why there’s a chapter about impact and the the the product is your program, and it’s a

[00:30:33.04] spk_1:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two reopening from Corona virus. That’s the special episode with Lisa Brauner. I just want to make sure that you heard it. It’s very good, very relevant, and I don’t want you to miss it if, uh, if you’re just sampling the show. Perhaps those were listening to every show, of course. All three of you, Cheryl, Rick and my dad. I’m just kidding about that. My dad doesn’t even know what a podcast is. So for Cheryl and Rick, I know that you are covered, but everybody else, Lisa is very smart. It’s a valuable show. We talk about dozens of issues for you to consider. As you plan to reopen your office reopening from Corona virus, you’ll find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Oh, and please, please keep taking care of yourself. Do it each day. You need it. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Stick to now back to Lawrence Paige. Tony Panyu. Tony. He’s chairman of lap of fundraising. We’re talking about his book fundraising for 01 You talk about the donor as hero? What, uh, what are you thinking there?

[00:30:36.04] spk_0:
Well, uh,

[00:30:37.68] spk_1:
all right. Share your thinking. I know what you’re thinking cause I read your I read your book. So listen, you just got to get the book. If you want to flush out the full thunk thinking Sure. The launch will introduce you to his thinking as donors as heroes,

[00:32:16.34] spk_0:
so many appeal letters or annual reports or newsletter. They make the client the hero. There’s there’s wisdom to that. They make the organization itself the hero. But in fund raising, the donor is the hero. And I grew up in a non profit sector that ignored that the ascent ignored the donor. The essential message to the donor for most of my life has been give and shut up. Um, but today’s donor wants to be heard. They want to be acknowledged. They will give MME. Or they will become more involved. It was Terry Axelrod, the founder of the Bena von model of fundraising that started to give me a hint that donors wanted to be engaged, and then the data bore that out. Um, I’ve started to take on clients who would tell me, Oh, we could never ask. Are our volunteers for money? I haven’t heard that question in the past five years or so. Ah, better set of problems, I think. I think people are more convinced that they realize their donors want to give and hello out there. If you think your dough. If you still think your donors, your volunteers going to No. Well, please evaluate that. Read my book and evaluate that because your volunteers want to give

[00:33:07.07] spk_1:
you, uh, one little quote, you say as your writing. You know, as you’re writing to your donors, um, tell the story as if the donor were sitting before you over a cup of coffee. Uh, you suggest you see their smile, speak their name? Um, you make it up, make it a conversation. You know, this idea of stilted language? Uh, you have to fill in 8.5 by 11 page sheet of paper. Maybe. Sometimes you do. But if you don’t need to, then don’t. Um, handwriting, handwriting and written solicitations could be probably more sincere than something you produce on word and feel constrained, compelled to Philip age around. So no, get close and talk to people like like you would like to be talked to.

[00:33:25.56] spk_0:
I learned from Tom Ahern about some of the nuances about making the donor the hero, and it actually influenced my book cover. You could see you know,

[00:33:26.88] spk_1:
Darcis holding listening marches, holding up his book cover. Okay,

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
going below, there’s a hook with a dollar sign going below the surface of the water Because the point is to rid to raise the big money you have, Teoh, think more deeply about fundraising and what’s motivating the donor. Um, but we start making the case right on the cover of a newsletter or a case for support. We recently did a case for support for an animal welfare agency where we put a picture of the Cubist cat on one case and the cute his dog on the other with their owners who had just adopted them holding them. But right underneath that we put the question, How can we ever say no? So we’re we’re saying to the donor,

[00:34:20.74] spk_1:
it wasn’t How can you How can you say no if you

[00:34:23.95] spk_0:
ever say no?

[00:34:24.74] spk_1:
Yeah, right. How can you say you ever seen get the you? You gotta get you with yours in there.

[00:34:28.90] spk_0:
That you in there?

[00:34:43.14] spk_1:
Okay, so I read the book you missed. You blew the Holt. Whole Point is, you gotta have the u in there. Not how can we get You are sorry. Um um

[00:34:44.44] spk_0:
you your it’s all about you.

[00:35:24.47] spk_1:
Yes, using yours. I know. Tom Ahern stresses that he even has a calculator on the Web somewhere. It might be a hearn dot com or something where you can put your text in and it’ll evaluate how many years you have versus how many wees or something like that, right? But I’m constantly I’m constantly rewriting, you know, the can we change the to you, the donor, Your you, your donors? I mean, as I am writing to clients instead of the donors, your donors, you’re talking now to the second person instead of the abstract third person, the donor that could be anybody’s donors. No, we’re talking about your donors, your donor. That’s just not not in the abstract. I think it bring. It makes it more concrete than using the site. That second person.

[00:35:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and it also it’s It’s not just a linguistic shift. There’s research science behind it. Psychology, science, psychological sciences behind it that the donors feel like Oh, he really is talking about me and and so we raise more money with that approach.

[00:35:54.39] spk_1:
By the way, did I did I mispronounce your name when I introduced you?

[00:35:59.14] spk_0:
I know. You

[00:36:00.34] spk_1:
know I didn’t I had hoped that I had met mispronounced your name because I had hoped that by now 6.5 years later you had changed the pronunciation of Panyu. Tony, why are you still defacing your beautiful Italian names with

[00:36:14.79] spk_0:
parents? It’s worse than that. The whole name on the bastard bastard birth certificate is Lorenzo Antonio Paige non. Tony?

[00:36:22.66] spk_1:
Yes, Panyu tony, why are you started

[00:36:25.28] spk_0:
the opera? You know

[00:36:26.63] spk_1:
I know you. You are in 2013. You mentioned your

[00:36:33.25] spk_0:
grandmother. Grandmothers? Uh uh. She loved the operating that she tell me that old time your name’s a little opera.

[00:37:18.63] spk_1:
I would rather you take the g out to make it pan, tony, or it switches to panini or something. Please. But you’re you’re killing the beautiful pronunciation. Panya non. I’ll try, tony. I promise to try. All right, it’s worth It’s worth the investment. It’s worth the investment in changing the pronunciation, not dispelling just a pronunciation. People will still be able to find you on the web. All right, um, you said you say all donors are major donors and following from that all gifts of major gifts. What? What? What is that to me? We know we’re stratify ing. We have our modest donors because we’re too afraid to call them small donors that we say their modest And then we have our mid level and major and then, you know, may be ultra. But you say all old owners are major donors.

[00:39:54.42] spk_0:
Yes, because nobody has to give a dime to you. Nobody has to give their hard earned money to you. Nobody has to on because of that, they all should be treated in a major way. Now, of course, in the systems of fundraising, we might have automation in place. Hope thoughtful automation for donors who are, you know, from $1 to say, $5000 for major donors or transformational donors at the higher levels. You know, we have a more personal touch. It’s expensive. Major gift officers who know what they’re doing are have come at a higher salary because their skills are honed over years and they know how to deeply listen and use the data to ask for transformational gifts, multiyear gifts, legacy gifts. Um, but, um but but I’m trying to convey that we shouldn’t take any dollar, no matter the size amount for granted that that they don’t have to give and people are giving, you know Jesus pointed out in Scripture. The widow’s mite was greater than the Faris ease giving because she gave from her heart and she gave from her want. And, um so I had to learn again. Just like with professional development. I had a learned this the hard way. My development I belly eight about donor giving less than I thought he he could have My development director quietly closed the door, sat down with that white flustered look on his face like Lawrence. Jesus, Mother God, you know, what am I gonna do with you? You’re supposed to be our leader. And he said to me lardons every gift is a major one and he didn’t have to give that gift. And that’s a real story. And I went silent and I thought about it. And I thought, You know, that’s That’s damn true. Yeah, eventually, that donor, because of the way my development director treated him so kingly. He did give at much higher levels later on. But nobody has to give us a dime.

[00:40:19.62] spk_1:
Generous would be proud of you. Still still quoting, still quoting scripture that influence that’s with you forever, I’m sure. Yeah. Uh, something else you. You, ah, seems provocative. That you devote a chapter to is, uh, revenue diversification. You you tell us it’s overrated. Flush that out. Would you?

[00:41:37.61] spk_0:
For smaller organizations, divert revenue diversification is really essential. I’m not naive about that, but it’s expensive to do well. Um, most smaller organizations barely have. Well, the profile most organizations is that they don’t even have a development office state. They have the program director and the executive director rights to grants or, um, manages the gala. They might bring in a gala event consultant, but, um, when when Stanford University did a study of think it was 130 major nonprofits who had gotten over $50 million annual revenues, they discovered that diversification of revenue went down. And that study was a seminal piece of research that changed our thinking about diversification. So as a non profit grows to a better set of problems, um, its revenue should stream should become deeper, not wider, and a

[00:41:38.56] spk_1:
few 1,000,000,000. What’s deeper in what’s most successful,

[00:43:00.34] spk_0:
that’s right and most lucrative. For example, Habitat for Humanity. They started with, um in kind donations as there biggest source of revenue that the stuff that they needed for the houses that they were building good stuff, not just, you know, poor quality stuff. But then they realized that the people who donated that stuff were willing to donate. And so they started an individual donor program that eventually grew as they did. Don’t a research to major major gift program, and they went deeper and deeper into that source of revenue individual giving they before monthly giving. They formed eventually on line giving. They formed legacy societies. So within each revenue stream, you can create enormous depth. And, ah, instead of expanding outside, could habitat taken government money is probably some of them eventually did in localities that where the local government said, Hey, we wanna help because this is part of our community development, a program. And so they got some

[00:43:46.04] spk_1:
time for our last break turned to communications. They’re former journalists, so you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. Plus, you want toe prepare, you got a plan to build media relationships. When all this noise subsides, there is a future after this. They know exactly what to do for you. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for fundraising for 01 This is also an example of where you need to invest in staff. You know, if you want. If you want to go deeper in the in the channel, the fundraising method that’s that’s most lucrative for you. You’re gonna have to do it with a professional who’s got an experience, got experience in that in that channel and maybe others as well. But it can’t continually be the executive director trying to deep in fundraising in the most look from the most lucrative source and manage the organization. Oversee the programs in short compliance. I mean, this is where you have to invest. If you want to be among those few charities that gets to the whatever 50 or $55 million level. You know it’s doable, but you need to invest in growth.

[00:44:58.44] spk_0:
When I last talked to you in 2013 our firm talked a good game about Prospect Research Service is, and we did. We did deliver some service is, but we got honest with ourselves that we had to invest. Seven years later, we have you know, a six person T and we do Don’t a research. Now we find I mean, we found 108,000 new donors. Value aligned donors for Lutheran Social Service is we found 8000 new donors for the food bank in New Jersey. Um, we found ah, 42 new board member candidates for ST Christopher’s Inn and Garrison, New York.

[00:45:15.86] spk_1:
I mean, our donor from in investing in Prospect Research.

[00:45:24.09] spk_0:
Yeah, and and also the field itself has matured and developed. And it’s not just about the data. It’s about using how to use the data off when you marry the data of vendors with a trained fundraiser. That’s where you have the alchemy

[00:45:37.49] spk_1:
and you have a whole. You have a chapter devoted to not underfunding advancement, development. It’s called development for a reason. You make the point. It needs to grow, and if you’re gonna grow it, you got to invest in it. So don’t under fund your development. Ah,

[00:46:02.77] spk_0:
and by the way, I just gave you the tip for my the book. The next book, How to Find New Donors, which will be out sometime in 2021.

[00:46:04.50] spk_1:
You’re doing a prospect research book.

[00:46:29.78] spk_0:
Yeah. Uh, interesting. You call it that? I’m not sure. It’s funny. Um, I I’m professionally, I’m a fundraiser. I’m not a prospect researcher. Yeah, I use the tools. I know it in good prospect researchers. Obviously, we have them here at the firm E. And I know I’m not one of them, but I’m a fund raiser who uses the data So that put the books about. It’s a nuance, maybe a distinction without a difference. But But there are very wonky. Very good prospect research books out there that I couldn’t possibly Right.

[00:46:54.18] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. But, um, I still have some other things I want to cover with you. We got, like, another 10 minutes or so left, but, uh, let me throw to you. What do you want to talk about from the book?

[00:47:08.48] spk_0:
Well, right off, I’d like Teoh, uh, invite the reader to to actually read it. I talked to a lot of fund raisers, and I’m not

[00:47:16.38] spk_1:
convinced. Sounds like that. I think that’s sound advice for a book. Ah, Book author? Yeah. Assumed my book, for God’s sake.

[00:47:26.48] spk_0:
Well, I actually learned this from a terrific fundraiser. Who headed up the Heyman Institute, Um, at New York University. Ah, Naomi Levine.

[00:47:32.24] spk_1:
Had I had her on the show years ago? Yes, I

[00:48:20.87] spk_0:
remember. Naomi, you know, kicked my butt around. Lawrence, you know, you have to read not just in our field, extensively. But you have to read in the field of economics in the field of sociology in the field of of, ah, science because the donors are expert in those fields. I remember going into a meeting with an engineer on a plan gift. And, um, he mentioned something that I had read because of Naomi suggestion about the field of of environmental engineering. And I said to him, You know, I know enough to be dangerous, but are you talking about, you know, corrosive engineering protection and his I split up? How the hell did you know that?

[00:48:24.77] spk_1:
You learned those words and friends. Corrosive engineering protection. And

[00:49:05.17] spk_0:
there’s affinity on this is our job. Is fundraising whites or amazing field? You? Never, if you’re bored, is a fundraiser. Holy cow. Your read my book and find out. You know, a way to become a non board. But my point, tony, is that so many fundraisers. Our stayed there. Kind of. They know what they know. Um, I could tell you at this time in my life more about what I don’t know about fund raising that then what I know about it and why I surround myself with good thinkers myself. And I’ve been told that this book and this is my second point is both helpful for somebody advanced in fundraising like yourself. And it’s also helpful for people who are new or mid career that it’s a very approachable book. Primarily because I tell stories that are based in reality. And I then give the more advanced theory behind it.

[00:49:32.27] spk_1:
Yeah, So I grab it. Is it is it You

[00:49:34.44] spk_0:
found that to be the case?

[00:49:46.87] spk_1:
It is approachable. Yeah. Um, it’s my turn again now. So you you have advice for ah CEO? Um, decision making and also CEO as fundraiser. So I want to put those two together and and explore what? What? Decisions about fundraising are appropriate at the CEO level.

[00:51:16.76] spk_0:
So, uh, knowing the plan and understanding the plan of how to move to a better set of problems, do you have the same fund raising dilemma year in and year out. That’s the CEO’s job to kick the boards, but and the the development teams. But ah ah, because so many fundraising programmes have the same problem year in and year out. That means it’s stuck and, um, and that’s primarily on the shoulders of the CEO. Uh, the underfunding of the development team that’s on the shoulders of the CEO. The CEO has to find the revenue to fund the capacity to pay for developed. Um, and I offer many on my blawg at lap of fundraising dot com. I offer you know, thousands of suggestions about how toe pay for fundraising, and, um so there’s two examples Ah, third example I’d give of the CEOs job and fundraising. Is it? They have to, um, boxed the ears or guide the boards in

[00:51:18.74] spk_1:
the stage box. Just 60 years, Yeah, box that years of war guide, okay

[00:51:24.20] spk_0:
or guide? That’s they would guide

[00:51:26.18] spk_1:
whose chooser is somewhere in that spectrum.

[00:51:59.21] spk_0:
Somewhere that spectrum. They have to guide the board’s way to think about fund raising because boards who know nothing about fundraising are sitting there in judgment of professional fund raisers who have you know, 25 years of experience. There’s, They wouldn’t do that to the program director. Some of them do. But that’s another set of problems. They wouldn’t. They generally don’t do it to their attorneys. They wouldn’t. They certainly don’t do it to their auditors. They feel free to do it to their fundraisers,

[00:52:07.34] spk_1:
things they would never do in their own business. They do, uh, routinely some boards, you know, to the CEO and the program staff of the board. Who’s the non profit, whose boards they said on. And you talk about a heavy lifting board gotta have a heavy lifting board.

[00:53:18.95] spk_0:
Yes, governance is a thing. Governance is not for every volunteer. Its governance is not just for, um, the person who likes your mission or whose son or daughter benefited from from your mission. Governance is a business proposition that the nonprofit sector has designed, Um, and it has roles and responsibilities for not just fugitive fiduciary roles, but for long range planning. It’s the job of the executive team to think about the next three years, but it’s the job of the board to think about the next 5 to 10 years. Yeah, and most boards never really think about the long term plan now, you know, planning in this day and age is is it is it anachronistic? I don’t think it is but a little bit old fashioned, but I think plans should be nimble and changed. But you should still have, Ah, a long range plan about what you want to look like in 5 to 10 years.

[00:54:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, that heavy lifting board and in terms of fundraising as well. And you make the point that campaigns could be a very good I very good vehicle for, ah recycling board or replacing board members that aren’t that aren’t heavy lifting. Maybe there’s an advisory council they can go on or some kind of America’s status so that they’re not embarrassed but still age. But But they’re not. But they’re not a fiduciary any longer. With those obligations and eso right, we have just like a minute or so left. Uh, leave us. Leave us with something, but do it concisely, please.

[00:55:46.67] spk_0:
Oh, we’re in the middle of as you and I record this were in the middle of the cove in 19 Pandemic. The nonprofits that are raising more money through this pandemic are the ones with a deep culture of philanthropy and that culture philanthropy is defined by resiliency. Resilience. Um, if you’re serious about the next pandemic or about your own viability in the future, the 23 chapters of this book well, deep in your culture of philanthropy so that you’re more prepared for the future. If you’re assessing yourself right now as that you were not ready for this pandemic, do not beat yourself up. But take it as a wake up call to start getting ready for the economic crisis that we’re going to be living through for the next couple of years, and for the very much needed reform of our health care system, so that the poor and uh, communities of color are better served than what we’re seeing in Cove in 19. And so that’s a real reason to read this right now. Tony, You and I have lived through many crisis is, and Cove in 19 certainly has its own characteristics that are unique. But, um, there are always crisis is that we face, and we have to be more resilient with a deeper culture of philanthropy, and fundraising for a one will help you get there.

[00:55:59.84] spk_1:
That’s the book fundraising for a one master classes in non profit fundraising that would make Peter Drucker proud. He’s Lawrence Ape Agnone lap.

[00:56:02.63] spk_0:
The

[00:56:02.74] spk_1:
company is labra lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Lawrence. Thank you very, very much. My pleasure.

[00:56:10.00] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you

[00:57:29.30] spk_1:
for sharing. Okay. Next week, more 20 and TC panel interview Greatness. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo creative producer is Clear My wrath. Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our guy. This music is by Scott’s time with me next week for not profit radio, big non profit ideas. 14 of their 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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[00:02:26.44] spk_0:
on Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. This marks a month of a dizzy production with audacity and zoom. I’m rather proud of myself. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into Abdur mission if you made me numb with the idea that you missed today’s show. Easy A. I Artificial intelligence is an opportunity for your career, not a threat to your job. Najeeb Qassem explains how to leverage your skills in a new landscape and describe some of the intelligent tools available for you to work with. He’s CEO of Kayla. This is part of our 20 NTC coverage and impact storytelling. How can technology help you share your impact with the right people at the right time? How do you distill your big story down to a small, comprehensible individual story? Tim San Antonio is with neon one that’s also part of our 20 and TC coverage on tony Steak, too. Draw another breath were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo. Here is Easy a I Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s a 2020 non profit technology conference. The conference was canceled, but we’re pursuing it virtually. Yes, they are sponsored at NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? My guest now of our second interview of 20 NTC is Najeeb Qassem. He is CEO at tequila. Uh, Majeed. Welcome.

[00:02:30.64] spk_1:
Thank you. It’s a real pleasure to be here, tony. Pleasure

[00:02:33.14] spk_0:
to have you as well, and I

[00:02:54.21] spk_1:
want to correct you. But one thing and TC may have canceled, but the spirit of the conference has not been. There are events popping up all across the continent. Webinars recordings. It’s been I was texting with Amy last night, and I think despite the heartbreak that it’s been, there’s so much community and grassroots support of the folks looking to build capacity and continue their learning, and it’s been heartbreaking, but yet inspiring at the same time.

[00:03:02.91] spk_0:
Yeah, well, you jumped into the void, right? Didn’t Didn’t you start put up a page or pages with, uh, virtual webinars that people were gonna be that we’re planning?

[00:03:27.71] spk_1:
Yes, sir. Actually, key allies hosting Ah, three day conference called Plugged in. Um, nope. You’re all needed. And Ah, and ah, it’s 99 sessions on different sort of some of the many of the topics. A lot of the speakers from from the intense conference I they’re gonna be speaking on everything from using tech in your social media toe A I and fundraising we’ve got I think five of aunt intends 12 board members are actually speaking. So we’ve had an incredible amount of support from amazing women and men across the U. S. And in Canada to bring people together.

[00:03:53.54] spk_0:
Now, when you’re doing this because I’m not sure when this interview you and I are doing right now is gonna air it, maybe after what you’re planning. So

[00:04:01.61] spk_1:
it starts today of all things.

[00:04:03.19] spk_0:
Okay, You’re definitely It’s not gonna not a

[00:04:06.01] spk_1:
big, but it’ll all be recorded as well as if you go to kill a dot com website. I’m sure you’ll be able to find it.

[00:04:11.25] spk_0:
OK. K E l a dot com. Yes, sir. Okay. Okay. Cool. Why is there a tennis racket hanging on your wall? Significance there. So

[00:04:40.04] spk_1:
it’s funny. It’s wow. Firstly, I had I have a love affair with tennis. I always tell my wife you’re my wife, but tennis is might miss stress. I’ve been playing since the age of three, which is also the time that I’ve been involved in the nonprofit sector. So by two earliest memories are volunteering and hitting a tennis ball. You

[00:04:40.24] spk_0:
were volunteering at age three.

[00:05:16.84] spk_1:
My mom and dad fled East Africa in the late sixties, early seventies and, uh, they had a rough go growing up and they’re 10. My dad got his first job at 11 to support a bunch of people. My mom had to get scholarships, but they were so supported by civil society and the nonprofit sector. I was born in Canada with, you know, what is the perfect life and so very early my parents taught me and reminded me how important it was to be involved in civil society to build nonprofits, to partake in my community. And so, you know, how do you tell a three year old that you’re not gonna donate to the cause? He’s He’s asking money he’s asking money for And so my mom and that it has refused, right? But I think more. They taught me about how important our sector is and how valuable it is. And so for 30 something years now, I’ve been playing in and around the nonprofit sector, and it’s it’s been a passion of.

[00:05:39.03] spk_0:
I should have had Children just so I could bring them along on solicitations. Its strike do.

[00:05:43.19] spk_1:
It’s true. I

[00:05:55.91] spk_0:
do plan giving, consulting plan, giving fundraising? Yes. If I had a three year old in my lap, I’m now. Could they have been impossible? It’s impossible. It’s better than a therapy dog. I don’t have Children. So I joke about, uh, well, my wife. I love Children. I love chilling. I love all Children, Children of all persuasions and and genders I love all Children know nothing about. Okay,

[00:06:09.51] spk_1:
well, you know, I think we’re building all of this for the next generation to write, to make every generation a little bit better and help this generation a lot. A lot, A lot as well. So I forgot to ask you how you holding up in all this craziness

[00:06:31.15] spk_0:
when I was gonna ask you Thank you for preempting. Yes, I’m finding in North Carolina, um, safe and well, and I have the ocean across the street, so I can not.

[00:06:36.54] spk_1:
The worst thing

[00:06:37.54] spk_0:
I can walk on the beach is alone on bits. Find where you and how are you?

[00:06:55.34] spk_1:
I’m in Vancouver, BC, and I’ve got the ocean about five minutes away, so I’m blast. My wife is nine months pregnant, so she’s due next week. Um, and so it’s a funny time to be bringing a baby into the world. But they say the 1st 100 days is brutal anyway, so I’m gonna be home, which is a blessing in disguise.

[00:07:03.12] spk_0:
Congratulations. We’re recording on March 24th. Are you expecting by the end of this month,

[00:07:09.49] spk_1:
Probably early April. I mean, who knows? Now it’s anything that’s two weeks, but it will be exciting. It’ll be

[00:07:51.51] spk_0:
right. Let’s talk about artificial intelligence. Your webinar topic, uh, was well sorry. Your workshop topic was on the topic we’re discussing remains easy. Artificial intelligence, simple tools toe tools to elevate your non profit impact. Let’s just start with a basic understanding. What? What what kinds of things were talking about with respect? Artificial intelligence? That’s a wide I was a phrase that could captures everything from manufacturing to big data. What are we talking about?

[00:08:23.11] spk_1:
So I think we’re more on that big data spectrum or just the data in general spectrum. So, you know, I’m actually giving the talk at Oculus plugged in in about two hours, so I should hopefully be able to answer this question. Well, you know, we’re talking mainly about machine learning driven, artificial intelligence that’s really part of software. And that’s what I wanted to talk about. How there’s tons of ways that organization, small and big anywhere in the world, can adopt tools some out of the box, some custom built that helped them gain insights, understand, get predictions for their organization on programming, on fundraising, on bullets, your management, whatever it might be on how that’s not some scary, um, mystical kind of thing. It’s a very tangible riel thing that isn’t all that difficult for us to adopt. Even if you’re a tech light, I like myself.

[00:09:21.08] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. We received RP PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven? Remember, it’s merely forgiveness, not absolution. You go toe wegner-C.P.As dot com, Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to Easy A I with Najeeb Qassem. Okay, it’s not not easy to adopt and, uh, nineties to adopt and to adapt to also bringing into your daily routine.

[00:10:00.54] spk_1:
So, you know, I think it once you make the commitment to make the change, it becomes it’s It’s one of those things. I’m not sure how you lived without especially, you know, And I think so. It is making a change, but not a revolution. It’s about, you know, our thesis and the pieces of the conversation that I was gonna have an NTC was It doesn’t have to up and how you work. It’s not gonna fire people. It’s not going to fundamentally change organization. It’s just gonna make it a little bit easier and a little bit quicker to do some of your work. And so I think part of my responsibility at at in that in that conversation in the webinar I’ll be giving was to say, Don’t freak out of a the A I It doesn’t have to be super expensive. It doesn’t even have to be complicated. But it’s something you’ve got to go out there and be committed to learning about so that you can build capacity at your non.

[00:10:19.80] spk_0:
Okay, Well, instead of your saying it there, you’re gonna say it here before you say it again in two hours. So? So you didn’t put the jacket on for non profit radio? The jacket is on for plugged in, right?

[00:10:29.18] spk_1:
You know, I put the jacket on no matter what. Definitely for you, tony.

[00:10:37.22] spk_0:
Look, now look at me. I’m in a T shirt. Come on. Monday. But I’m on the beach. I’m but I’m

[00:10:37.94] spk_1:
a recovering corporate lawyer. This is like,

[00:10:40.83] spk_0:
all right. And you recovered a lot more recently that I did. I recovered General Liability melt medical malpractice defense attorney. But that was many years ago. 1990 1994. So you have. When you get further into your recovery, you’ll address you’ll just like this.

[00:10:55.84] spk_1:
It I’ll just sort of go from that high a lot of time. That’s all

[00:11:09.74] spk_0:
right. It’s incremental. It’s in command. Trust me. Yes, 10 years from now, you’ll stop shaving your wear T shirts every day. Im you 10 years Dennard.

[00:12:31.24] spk_1:
Yeah, Yeah. All right. So I think I think the first thing I want to talk about is a little bit about demystifying. What is a I and a at least a I that I’m talking about? Yeah, that I’m talking about is not the robot on TV that takes over humanity. It’s not a piece of technology that can think for itself that can make decisions for itself that can operate. And sometimes I think the perception is artificial intelligence is like I said, this big scary thing The thing I’m talking about is the thing that tells you what song to listen to on Spotify or what products to recommend for you on Amazon. Simply put, it’s it’s taking huge amounts of data and teaching it about ah, developer and engineer. Ah, data scientists will teach it something. It’s like writing an algorithm, right? It’s It’s the same thing we used to have. But instead of just writing the algorithm, if this then that right, it’s it also teaches them how to learn better. Because we know that the more data we have when operated in the right, you know, by the right people. When built properly, they can actually make decision making and better and better. So the a I that we’re talking about the eye that’s built in the Killah and built into tons of other tools sales tools, Amazon, whatever it might be, is simply saying to This is this piece of software that says When David gets in, I’m gonna get smarter and smarter, or it’s gonna get smart and smarter to make that decision or that recommendation or whatever it’s coded to do. It’s a very simple, not simple to build that simple task.

[00:12:52.60] spk_0:
Okay, let’s dive in. So can we start with, say, a fundraising application? Absolutely. Well, what? What do you have to offer there? What?

[00:12:57.17] spk_1:
So So And I don’t want to talk about kilo here because

[00:12:59.76] spk_0:
I know. And I don’t mean not

[00:13:00.96] spk_1:
No, no, no. Of course. But, you know,

[00:13:02.83] spk_0:
agnostic. What? What could we do with our r c R M database?

[00:13:48.78] spk_1:
Absolutely. So So let’s pick something like when a donor is gonna give. Okay? Like you know your your plan. Gift giver. You know, you probably know, you know, the organization to work with probably have years or even decades worth of data, right? They have it. It might be in a spreadsheet. It might be in a CIA ram. It might be, you know, like me on Post it notes. But it’s there. And so that data is, is the It’s the key to making these decisions. So if you know that Tony’s get probably gonna give on giving Tuesday and on December 30th because he’s got tax money, he wants to write off over time. Right now, that’s you. Now you add tens or hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of donation records for you and for all the other people. What the’s tools could do is start to see patterns and the smart, the A I The machine learning of it is it sees the patterns, and as it gets more data, it the recognition of the pattern gets smarter. Does that Does that make sense?

[00:14:12.87] spk_0:
Yeah. All right,

[00:14:45.04] spk_1:
so So now I know if I run this through the you know, in my crn if I’ve got this tool later, don or whatever it is that tony is gonna give in these these times and the on the predictions over time over the years over the multiple donors you have are going to get better and better and smarter and smarter and ultimately, more accurate. Now you cannot replace the intuition of a fundraiser. The personal relationships A I tools and the fundraising space are not trying to do that. What they’re trying to do is give you tony a tool to help your work better.

[00:15:09.48] spk_0:
Okay. All right. So we need we need a decent amount of data. You know, obviously, the larger the sample, the smart area smarter it is, and the more you could pull out of it, Right? Sorry. All right. So, um okay, so we could predict, um, let’s say bringing into my arena because I’m shellfish. I’m the host planned giving. So I mean, I know from doing this since 1997 that the likelihood that someone is going to be make make a planned gift is based on their They’re giving two factors there giving history, consistency, loyalty, like these are people who now, of course, there are exceptions. But

[00:15:35.24] spk_1:
of course, of course. And so that’s what I can’t can’t override, right? You’re 14 right? I mean, sure, they can do it. Agree. But the exceptions or what? Why we need you. This is why you’re not out of a job. At least not yet, right? You know, But but But you’re right. Those two factors, or

[00:16:20.50] spk_0:
west, the loyalty of giving. So these are people who have maybe given 25 gifts in 20 years, 18 years or something. 30 givings, 25 years, lots of loyalty, regardless of the gift size and roughly age 55 to 60 over. Yes, some people make planned gifts when they’re 30 something. But again, we’re generalizing. How is ah? So how is artificial intelligence going to help me with that experience based conclusion?

[00:16:21.51] spk_1:
So you know what? It might do it And I’m just spitballing here, but you might have a tool that’s built that says that’s able to recognize those factors. And then at a tag or a badge to this ex donor, right? My mom who says, you know, she has the preconditions based on the data we have based on all of your donors, Not just you, all of your donors. These air the patterns. We see these are the preconditions that the developers have sort of said, You know, this is likely. Like you said, history and age and a few other things, and they may run these models is what’s really and then they can say this person is a high likelihood of medium likelihood of low likely. For example, it can spit out a prediction just like Spotify says, If you like Pink Floyd, it might suggest the Zeppelins right. That’s that. It’s this. It’s literally the same logic. It’s It’s a predictions. Okay? An algorithm.

[00:17:28.02] spk_0:
I just thought of a way it might actually work alongside. What I just described is, let’s say you’re you know, it’s a statewide organization. It would find the people you tell me if it could probably find the locations. Maybe the county’s sure have a You have a density of planned giving donors or play giving prospects based on who the donors are. But you never realised. You don’t realize there’s a there’s a There’s a greater likelihood for Johnson County to be a plan gift donor than for Smith County,

[00:18:50.74] spk_1:
for sure, and I think wanted great things. You know we talk about artificial intelligence as this siloed thing, but it’s actually not. It’s part of any a data or an intelligence strategy in a software or as an organization. It’s not one you know. Software can see stuff that we can’t not just because of the A I because it’s like there’s so much data. There’s only so many records that you conflict there or remember or into it like there’s there’s a whole other ah, bigger right. The reason it can do calculations, fasters. It’s not that it’s smarter than me. It’s just it’s got more processing power than Ideo, and it’s probably smarter than me. But you know, what I’m saying is, and so I think you, you know, you can add the benefit of these things and a good developer, well, actually work with the sector in this case and understand the different preconditions so they might look at location they might look at, You know, the primary things might be age and frequency, but there might be a whole host of other things that determine maybe the stock market, maybe not even example right now. But, you know, maybe the location, maybe the weather who knows. But these factors are then tested on a sample in the development process. What they do is they take the data set in. They carve out a sample, right, like a little bit of it, and they run their models to see if the machine will predict the same things. That the sort of the pure algorithm like, if then kind of stuff.

[00:19:33.87] spk_0:
Can we expect if we’re going to the artificial intelligence marketplace to find tools that are already exists? And then we cast we like it’s on a plug in for salesforce or razor’s Edge or something, while majors that you may not allow plugs, but Salesforce would resident probably would not, Um, is something like that is, This is not all custom development, right?

[00:19:39.80] spk_1:
No. And that’s really important to note. There are tons of amazing innovators and thinkers and technologists and dedicated, passionate people in the nonprofit sector who are building the stock times. A few on I get to work with a bunch of every day. So here’s where I will say Kayla is a C. R m. We focus on small to medium sized nonprofits, sort of sub 10 year and it’s built right into the tech. So it’s a C R M. But it’s got all this stuff already layered in. There are other tools, like gravity and I wave and other tools a couple of other organizations that lets you plug it into your your sales force or your or your whatever C. R m. And so and they’ve gone out and they’ve analyzed just like we have, you know, and built the factors and work with the sectors and built the technology. So you literally plug in your day that it’s just fresco

[00:20:29.04] spk_0:
that was very gracious of you to shout out gravity and I wave

[00:20:32.45] spk_1:
No, no, it’s, you know, we’re building something and innovating for the sector together, and I want to make sure that we’re doing what’s best for the sector. And it’s not often I believe it’s kilobit. Often it’s not.

[00:20:44.34] spk_0:
What else besides fundraising could give it? Give us another

[00:21:05.94] spk_1:
that I want to use a really, really out of a non one that’s got nothing to Akila or I wave or sale sports or anything. I want to talk about suicide prevention. Okay, so there’s an organization in the U. S. That’s that. That worked with data scientists to analyze 65 million text messages across which is heartbreaking by the way to think about the 65 million text messages have been sent in around that, I think it’s called the Crisis text line. The crisis.

[00:21:14.58] spk_0:
10 of them. Yeah, they were there, founded by the founder of Do Something.

[00:21:19.70] spk_1:
Maybe maybe? Yeah.

[00:21:48.41] spk_0:
Forget. Oh, my. I’m embarrassed. I forget her name. You know, the I know are your finger is the current CEO of Do Something but Crisis text line. Yeah, they’re they’re data intensive. Yeah, kids. Sorry, young people Azaz do something became and is now well known in data science and Lewis for people like, you know, like, 16 to 25 or something like that. Or maybe 11 2 25 like that. Yeah, yeah, I know. Crisis took Nancy. Nancy. I forget Nancy. Loveland e. I think Nancy Bubbling. We’re talking about the crisis text line.

[00:23:37.24] spk_1:
So crisis text line analysed 65 million text messages on what they were it. So one thing that I learned is that them every minute counts. When you’re talking about suicide, right, the more the quicker you get to the young woman of the young man who struggling that sent the text, the more likely you’re able to help them in time, right? And so what they did is they, You know, the example that I was taught was there’s to exempt to text messages. One. That’s, I don’t know if I could go on. I just want to drive my, um, car off a cliff And the other one is my friend committed suicide. I don’t know how I’m going to get by now. The urgency of those two things is very clear, right? And so, using machine learning, they were able to rank high priority and low priority cases on the high priority cases where they were able. I think there’s something like 50%. They were able to to read out the lower priority ones and get to the high priority ones really quickly. And so something like 90% 90 plus percent of the texts that are high priority as determined by this machine learning algorithm, and that within five minutes they could get to them. They took 65 million text messages, analyze them, built the model that got smarter, that was able to use. Think it’s called natural language processing To say this is high priority. This is lower priority. And because of that, they’re able to save lives. And that’s a really cool example of how our sectors using I Does that make sense?

[00:23:42.96] spk_0:
Yeah, of course. Yeah, uh, again, big data. Um,

[00:24:05.64] spk_1:
yeah, that one was custom built. A lot of other ones don’t have to be right. That one was cost. Okay. Yeah. Um, one of my engineers actually worked on a data science project in his master’s degree where it was using. And I don’t exactly know much about this one using artificial intelligence and machine learning to help people with prosthetics and getting the nerve movements right, because it was tons of data that they were able to crunch. To say, this is supposed to do this. That’s posted batter. You know, he’s 10 times smarter than I am. But the’s air application, some of them are custom like those and others air out of the box like some of the fundraising ones or chat bots. A really big example. Non.

[00:24:26.71] spk_0:
Oh, they are so check box for an example of

[00:24:42.64] spk_1:
what you do is you teach they can be. I don’t know if everybody you know you can Great chatbots. And some of them you can just, you know, kind of sign up for and you give up 50 questions or 50 answers. Right? Then people chat in, and as people talk to the bought, it gets smarter and smarter and more able to recognize which crushing it is an answer appropriately, or that it doesn’t know and categorize them and even suggest what questions you should be answering. That’s an example of artificial intelligence. Okay, okay. And not crazy. Not scary. Not take over the world end humanity. Kind of a I just simple. Yeah, you’ve

[00:25:14.44] spk_0:
reassured us. Oh, yeah. Okay. Those of those who were words worried in the beginning, um, you want your wonder bullets in your description says, uh, talk about how to leverage your skill set new landscape using working side by side with We’re working with artificial intelligence. That’s not fluid. Like it’s another employee working with it yourself. Well,

[00:25:30.52] spk_1:
you know, So I had property.

[00:25:32.58] spk_0:
Well, just know what skill sets are are advantageous.

[00:26:19.38] spk_1:
You know, I’m in the decades I’ve spent in and around the sector. One thing that I’ve learned is the ingenuity and the commitment of our sector is maybe the biggest and most important resource. And I think the commitment and ingenuity to learn and to continue to grow and drop these tools into our work processes is the most important skill, you know. And sometimes myself included, we’re a little bit rigid, and how we think we’re like this is how we’ve done it for 20 years. Why would I change it? But technology is is whether we like it or not a great disrupter. And this tech is not a fat. It’s not going anywhere. So we need Teoh. It’s not. It’s not difficult to learn, but it it does involve us taking a leap of faith or or getting at least out of our discomfort zones or rather, our comfort zones into our discomfort zones and saying this could be part of my work. The second thing is thinking structurally thinking about this as an opportunity rather than a threat, right? And I think that, you know, I’m disappointed to a degree in how our sector has reacted because this tech has been around its not like its 14 months old,

[00:26:54.98] spk_0:
Ondas you said earlier. You know, we’re already taking advantage of it through Amazon products, Absolutely. On Spotify Suggestions are easily see. This is an opportunity, not a threat. Um, but also

[00:26:55.61] spk_1:
like the big one, the big guys air using it hard. Just Rocchi’s universities use it for their endowments. They use this, the little guys, the medium organizations. Now that there’s out of the box solutions and other opportunities, you know, that’s great. Like, let’s let’s embrace them. And let’s have the courage to embrace

[00:27:29.74] spk_0:
them. All right, we’re gonna leave it there, and that’s that’s a perfect way because our audience is small and mid sized nonprofits, 13,000 weekly listeners so wonderful They’re there, right in your sweet spot as well. Thank you very much. All right. Tony Judaism CEO of tequila Kiva dot com Thank you again.

[00:27:31.14] spk_1:
Thanks. Don’t appreciate it.

[00:30:08.47] spk_0:
And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and T. C. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take Jew Draw another breath. No, the ice age is not coming. You just need to take care of yourself. It’s essential. Things are still screwed up badly, and it takes a toll on you. It may feel like it’s more of a routine. Now it is. In fact, it is more of a routine now. But things are still screwed up, and it’s still impinges on the way the way we work and it and it impacts our minds badly. So please put yourself first at some time each day. Maybe it’s total relaxation. Maybe it’s a vigorous workout. I have been saying pure relaxation, which I do, but maybe that’s not it for you on, By the way, I do work out to I’m not a sloth. I’m not even sure what a sloth is. But I’m not a slug, No, but a slug. I’m not sure what a slug is is, um, you know, I don’t crawl around. Um uh, you know what is? Well, I’m not one of those, um Yeah. No, I’m not. That Whatever it is that takes your mind off, work off disease off everything that’s going on around you around, all of us. What is that? Puts you at peace. Find it? You know what it is, you know, think about it. Just got to make time to do it. You know what it is that puts you in peace? Do it. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. You need it. Please. That is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for impact storytelling. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. The 2020 non profit Technology Conference. The conference had to be canceled in Baltimore, but we are persevering by Zoom virtually. We’re sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guest kicking off Day two of our coverage is Tim San Antonio. He’s director of strategic partnerships at Neon One. Tim, welcome to the show.

[00:30:18.63] spk_2:
Hey, thanks for having me. Thanks.

[00:30:20.35] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m glad we could work this out virtually. And you’re well and safe in the Schenectady area upstate New York. I’m glad.

[00:30:27.75] spk_2:
Yes, yes. And I’m happy that you’re also doing well. Uh, you know, I am finding it. It’s a trying time for everybody, but I’m also inspired by the creativity that I’m seeing as well.

[00:30:56.45] spk_0:
There’s a lot, especially around NTC and and the community commitment to do these virtually whether it’s non profit radio are. Yesterday there was, ah, conference that Ah company called Kilo put together our NTC subset Virtual conference. Kilo did that plugged, and I think they called it. There’s been a lot of community support. We’re resilient. It’s a resilient. It’s a resilient, committed community.

[00:31:27.44] spk_2:
Well, and actually, that’s one of the things that that we kind of kicked into. High gear. Neon one is one of the sponsors of the fundraising effectiveness project. Okay, And so that’s Ah, that’s from it was an outgrowth of the Association of Fundraising Professionals, Anderman Institute, in terms of data analysis, and we actually looked back in terms of like what happened in the last crisis, 7 4000 and eight. And we actually found this is a data set that draws from from neon serum, blue meringue donor perfect some other data providers. So it’s very accurate, especially for, you know, small the midsized organizations.

[00:31:38.32] spk_0:
That’s our audience here

[00:32:27.04] spk_2:
and so, so great. This is this is gonna be relevant because that’s gonna impact us for months, right? Even though we’re talking right now in the midst of the storm, this is not going to go away anytime soon. And what happened in 7 4000 and eight, with the study of about 2400 organizations, is that even when an economic downturn really started to kick in the gear, you know, GDP was dropping and things of that nature donation revenue relatively stayed flat. It didn’t go down that much. Um, and actually small to mid size donations kicked up in the beginning, actually. So? So there is historical precedence. It’s not apples to apples situation, especially with with kind of the social distancing elements here. But, um, if we go back, historically, there is data that shows that we’re resilient. It’s not just kind of like hope is, you know, hope is not a strategy, right? So So you

[00:32:34.58] spk_0:
have. And how about after the, uh what do you have data for what happened after the great recession was over 9 4010

[00:33:03.44] spk_2:
Yeah, things have consistently year over year, especially when you start to look at giving institute data alongside of it, which we help supply for think individual giving. But if you look at foundation data, even corporate social responsibility, things go up. Things have historically been going up. The issues are that donor retention is going down. That’s that’s the problem that the larger pie is going up. There’s more money being put into the sector, but individual donor retention has hysterically been kind of taking downward year over year. And that’s that’s the concern that especially a lot of people have with what’s what’s happening right now.

[00:33:23.83] spk_0:
I know there is a lot of donor attrition. I’ve had lots of guests talk. About 70 75% of first year donors don’t make a gift. Second year,

[00:33:34.04] spk_2:
it’s actually it’s actually a corner pheap. Most recent fundraising effectiveness project data. It’s probably in the eighties at this point when we look at what happened in 2019 and then the fourth quarter report is just about to get announced, so

[00:33:53.24] spk_0:
it’s getting worse than getting a guest. Like I said, 70 75. Yeah, all right.

[00:33:54.84] spk_2:
And ultimately, I mean that touch. Well, let’s let’s try to shift into the positive tone

[00:34:12.06] spk_0:
to the part of what I was gonna shifted into impact storytelling. Which exactly what We’re here to talk about what you were going to talk about MTC. And we’re talking about today standing, standing out in the crowd with impact storytelling. All right, so what do we need to do? Better about

[00:34:53.82] spk_2:
what we need to do to do it? Yeah. So ultimately, there’s kind of a lot of different industry theorists and consultants and other thought leaders, you know, talk about an impact feedback loop in the very simple, simple idea there is. When somebody makes a donation, they’re expecting the here report back on the impact of what was done with that. And then there’s data, you know, from people like Adrian, Sergeant and stuff like that that show that the quicker that you tell an effective story to someone on what was done with the money, then they’re more likely to donate again. And so especially way with donor retention going down for first time donors, storytelling is key to engaging those folks and keeping them coming back,

[00:34:59.33] spk_0:
Would you say as tell a story as soon as possible? Do you mean within 24 hours you have the donation? Here’s where here’s where your money went.

[00:35:07.47] spk_2:
Absolutely absolutely because and now, realistically, because of just how our industry works. And these are things that me on one wants to addresses, is speeding up, getting money into into organizations hands quicker But realistically, like unless it’s like a credit card donation, someone probably isn’t expecting that they’re check where their donor advised fund dispersement or something like that is going to like immediately from day one, like start, start feeding kids or

[00:35:37.67] spk_0:
being in the hands of right right being in the hands of beneficiaries, right?

[00:37:01.52] spk_2:
Just that’s not realistic. So there’s a little bit of, ah of a you know, gap in terms of what donors we’re gonna understand. But they do know that that there’s a rolling trailing basis of impact that should be happening. People should be doing work every single day that you can talk about right and so so the quicker that you can say, Look, this is what the money that you’ve you’ve put toward is going to do, then the better it’s going to be in terms of your retention rates that there’s there’s just concrete analysis and and and precedents for that type of thing. And so when you’re talking about impact storytelling, the thing that you don’t want to do is four people with statistics, right we could talk about, you know, for instance, just even in this conversation, we can talk about all the different things that people are experiencing right now when it comes to Cove in 19 and and things of that nature. But what we’re doing at me on one, for instance, were actually just about to launch a campaign called N Pose. Rise is focus in on concrete tactical examples of what people are doing to get through this. So examples. Let’s think about the arts world, right? You’re really getting hit because a lot of people’s attention are going toward, you know, health and human service is and food distribution and obviously things that are important. But it’s been fascinating to see organizations in the arts and culture world pivot very quickly the virtual, which they’re not very comfortable with in many ways, right like, If you’re if you’re doing a play or a performance to immediately, then go well. I don’t have the crowd in front of May. What Dough? I dio

[00:37:20.24] spk_0:
the only person an actor without an audience.

[00:37:35.71] spk_2:
Exactly. And so So to be able to see examples of that where it’s where it’s like one person, Um, one of my favorite organizations locally here is a small art studio that helps kids and it’s called Create Community Studios. And what their executive director start doing is making videos for kids on how to do art. Right? And that’s the thing where, where she’s not sitting there saying like We’ve had such an impact And here’s that, you know, x amount of number that our revenue has dropped right, like That’s not like those things are important to help supplement. But from an impact standpoint, it’s her face saying this is a way that we’re gonna help you if you want to turn around and support. This is how you can do it. But here’s me giving. This is This is the time that we, as organizations, need to give value as opposed to just kind of like provide value and there’s a difference between, like giving with no expectation of return and then like providing an expecting return. And

[00:38:48.72] spk_0:
there will be there will be a time for the for the ladder. Yes, on bit’s not in the next week or month, but the time will come when, um especially if you’re keeping in touch with your your supporters, your your donors in ways that you’re describing giving ways if you’re keeping in touch, just explaining. And here we are again storytelling, explaining what’s happening without your hand out. Then when that time is right, your donors gonna think 3/4 expect that there’s there’s been a need and, you know, and how can we? How can we be of help?

[00:40:10.37] spk_2:
And there’s there’s concrete in terms of even the psychology of storytelling. Um, uh, it’s interesting in terms of like, there’s been studies done, and we were gonna talk about this in terms of NTC. But But there’s been actual studies done where there’s a difference between, um, basically are you can somebody individually connect with the story that you’re telling because if you tell a story that has too much like it’s to big right, it’s very difficult for us to even think about Cove in 19. On the macro level, right? We hear, like, 200 you know, near 300,000 cases globally. Stuff like that, people kind of tune out. Like, psychologically, there’s there’s been studies that have shown that, like, once you get to, like, really high, big numbers don’t connect this much. And actually, data shows that if you can take the big macro story and then bring it down to here is one individual person or small group of people that have been impacted by this that is when donations actually go up. And so when we were gonna be doing the ah presentation, I was going to focus in on the Syrian crisis because, you hear, you know, refugees. And so you know. And we were gonna actually even show imagery that shows like Think about when you think about the Syrian crisis, what stands out right? And what stands out the images that people remember or not like people in refugee camps. It’s the little boy who lost his life and was washed up right? It’s a little girl who the photographer said, Can you please smile for May and There’s just tears in her eyes, but she is smiling, right? Those are the things that that send chills down people’s spines because it’s just like you and I were having a direct conversation. You know, imagine when you get all the different zoom things, it’s a little bit harder for you to focus in on one like multiple faces in even a meeting or things like that. Where is when you’re having a conversation? You’re building a relationship with someone, and that’s what you’re trying to do virtually as well as when you’re when you’re telling your story. When they’re not actually in the room with you, you know they might be reading a direct mail piece or things of that nature. You want to tell your story where there’s an individual residents because that’s when donations

[00:41:09.27] spk_1:
actually go up.

[00:41:18.81] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, that’s consistent with what other guests have said. The macro level is just difficult to combat to comprehend. Okay, okay.

[00:41:28.99] spk_2:
And that’s ultimately there’s different strategies that you can do that because you also don’t want to be, especially now seeming opportunistic, right? But

[00:41:29.85] spk_0:
yeah, right. But

[00:41:30.87] spk_1:
it could be

[00:41:41.36] spk_0:
done with sincerity and genuineness and still showing a story revealing an impact without it being you know where your heart on the on your sleeve and with a handout.

[00:41:46.30] spk_2:
Now now is the time for

[00:41:47.89] spk_0:
the line there There was a line you don’t want across it, because then it looks like you’re being opportunistic. And exploiting the Corona virus for the benefit of your non profit

[00:41:57.28] spk_2:
authenticity is what’s going to to help most right now, being vulnerable, being being understanding, you know, like

[00:42:06.60] spk_0:
vulnerable is a good. That’s a good adjective. Yeah,

[00:42:09.31] spk_2:
it is. It is. I mean, and and for me, you know, it’s it’s difficult even on a personal level, because, like right now in the back of my head, I want to focus on you. But then I’m hearing my Children crying, right, And that’s the reality is that if we understand that that’s happening everywhere.

[00:42:25.10] spk_0:
Let’s assure listeners, your wife is home to

[00:42:32.97] spk_2:
my wife is home thing. This is not a Lord of the flies situation. My wife is. I

[00:42:34.16] spk_0:
want people to know. Yes,

[00:43:18.94] spk_2:
yes, so and were trading things off. And she’s an engineer and she has a lot of she’s actually deemed essential by New York state in terms of the work that they’re doing because its data centers that she’s supporting. But at the same time, we want to make sure that our Children are getting, you know, a good continuing an education as much as we can provide them attention. So we’re even picking themes, you know, weekly. So this week’s Dimas is store. It’s fairy tales. So it’s like storytelling, right? So I’m actually even trying to go back to them and and take the concepts that we’re talking about here and and apply that to their own life, right, because they don’t understand what’s happened in their little so. But how can you tell it? In a way, it’s actually purple. It’s going through. This experience is pushing me to be a better storyteller.

[00:44:22.45] spk_0:
Time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. Plus, you want to prepare to build media relationships when the din subsides. Didn’t I love that others with over dinner? It’s just just quick, then in in and at dinner, and it’s just a great word you use the word din. So when they didn’t subsides, you want to be ready to build those media relationships. They know exactly what to do. Let’s turn to. But we may. My, uh, didn’t die. Aggression may have forgotten We’re talking about turned to communications there at turn hyphen two dot ceo. Near the end of this segment, Tim talks about an April 16th virtual conference on giving events. Dream Big Virtual conference Forgiving Day hosts Tow. Watch the recorded conference. Email him Tim at neon one dot com. We’ve got but loads more time for impact storytelling.

[00:45:05.66] spk_2:
But everybody’s going through this right. It’s this weird young in collective consciousness that we’re all experiencing and and it’s global. And and And what’s fascinating is that we didn’t have this back in 1918 when you know they influenza situation hit right. Same elements happening there, but we didn’t have all the technology toe help us connect. I don’t know if tony have you seen the mean where it’s like before cove it and it shows everybody just staring at their phone. And then it’s those after Koven is like everybody’s outside. That’s pretty good. It’s pretty good social distance, though 16th

[00:45:18.99] spk_0:
in the meantime. What what advice do you have for, Ah, communicating with your institutional funders now and over the next Over the coming months, Way just talked about individual keeping in touch with individual donors. What if you’ve got a grants relationship pre existing? They’ve been funding you. How do you keep in touch with those folks? Is anything different? I mean, I would say institutional funders are made of people. Yeah, but you may have different advice for keeping in touch with whether it’s corporate supporters or private foundation.

[00:46:50.58] spk_2:
So and kind of the approach that neon one takes is that that we lean on people with subject matter, expertise and technical expertise because we don’t do everything right. And so what I’ve learned from Flux, which was gonna present with us for the NTC panel, is they focus on Ford Foundation like that’s their client base. So it’s all like private foundations and other institutional partners. And what they’re finding is that, um, one funders air stepping up. There’s a running list of emergency relief funds that we’re seeing because neon one actually does a lot of giving days, for instance, right. And so giving events by community foundations, private foundations or establishing relief funds Giving events are actually having dedicated relief funds and pages for these types of things. And so this is a time to basically don’t shirk away from being honest if you’re in pain. Um, if your organization is experiencing, um, you know, there’s a lot of things when it comes to rent. There’s a lot of things when it comes to paying employees insurance. Um, check what general operational support that you can like ask about general operational support for your institution,

[00:46:56.54] spk_0:
maybe even converting an existing grand from something project of programmatic to general operating.

[00:47:44.38] spk_2:
Yeah, don’t don’t. I was I got my start as a grant writer, tony, and that was like the first job that I had in the non profit space. And, uh, and this is not the time to focus on non restricted giving That has nothing to do with the immediate needs that your organization needs to distribute. You know, um and so being honest about that and also being prepared to to have difficult conversations around your budget is going to be key to talking to any of these. I will say on the corporate social responsibility side. It’s gonna I think I personally think it’s going to take a bit for that to recover. Now. I did check with our partners over a double the donation, and I said, Have you heard anything about corporations dropping their matching gift programs during this time? No, they have not. So we don’t need to panic. I’m actually seeing more matching gift elements come up, so I definitely lean into those. But you’re probably not gonna be getting a lot of ah, gala sponsorships at this point. Realistically,

[00:48:08.82] spk_0:
double the donation. Is that that Adam Adam What? What’s his last name? He was I’ve had him on the show.

[00:48:11.89] spk_2:
Why here? I think.

[00:48:12.95] spk_0:
Why, wegner? Wine, wine? Yeah,

[00:48:20.86] spk_2:
like that. He’s going todo while he’s actually one of the nicest people I’ve ever met. So he’ll be like, Oh, no, this is a supposed to me. You know, Santonio? No, that’s That’s how you say, Uh, yeah, Adam’s. Adam’s great. The team over there is is really great. And actually, Cougar Mountain is neon one part or two. So I’m pretty excited that they’re they’re sponsoring this.

[00:48:34.91] spk_0:
Oh, excellent. Yes. There are sponsors 20 NTC. We’re gonna have a booth together. Uh, we’re gonna We’re gonna be in double Booth 10 by 20 together.

[00:48:54.47] spk_2:
Yeah. So let let’s go. Actually, let me Let me ask you this. What do you think? The Post Cove it conference world is going to be like, Well, there are for ourselves,

[00:49:45.37] spk_0:
Coated. What? I mean, what do you mean, like next year? Yeah, I think there’s gonna be. I think there’s gonna be double the investment in 21 D. C or near double that. There was in 20 and D. C. Yeah. Um, and I some of that is that’s not just my thinking. Some of that is actually quantifiable because I have talked to any sample ward yesterday. You know, then 10 0 yeah. She is a regular contributor on the show she’s on each month. She’s great looking about technology, but on dhe, she’s been on with the show for years, so I know her very well. She said there were. She didn’t know why, but some of the major exhibitors and sponsors had had near double there. Their their support from 2019 to 2020. They were seeing big, some record numbers in sponsorships and support. Um,

[00:49:46.26] spk_2:
between We were gonna have a double booth, and actually

[00:49:48.42] spk_0:
you were going to Okay, that’s that. That was among a lot of the big sponsors, so it made cancellation that much more difficult.

[00:49:56.37] spk_2:
I know. It’s like what, like, 60% of their revenue was anti

[00:49:59.93] spk_0:
62 to be exact. Yeah, to pretend the revenue is that conference.

[00:50:03.82] spk_2:
Well, they definitely they do have a support fund. I’ve donated to it. For instance, in terms of the even, though my stuff would be covered by neon one. I I personally, uh, made a donation. So folks want to support NTC. I would say this is a good time to

[00:50:30.59] spk_0:
radio. Yes, I’ve done the same thing. I made a pledge by April 30th. Yeah, yeah, and 10 dot org’s, but in terms of Well, that s so I just know NTC. I think 21 in D. C is gonna be a blowout. I think I think it’s a mistake. If you don’t exhibit in 21 d c e. I wouldn’t be surprised if they pushed 3000 people where their usual is 24 2500. What

[00:50:44.86] spk_2:
I do see happening is supplement, Terry. Virtual events being spun up. So, virtual conferences. We It’s interesting. We actually

[00:50:52.02] spk_0:
amorphous gave that. I am I narrowed down to one. I only know in D C. You’re able to look global. Uh, all right, well, that’s why that’s why we’re picking your brain, you

[00:50:57.17] spk_2:
know? And that’s part of my job is to pay attention,

[00:51:03.84] spk_0:
wegner. Thank you. All right. Despite its strategic sponsorships, I’m a little leak in fundraising Consultant in podcaster.

[00:51:06.93] spk_2:
But I love it. I love the podcast, tony, Thank you into every year.

[00:51:19.82] spk_0:
Yes, Podcasts have a place, especially now. But, you know, I’ve been at this for 10 years. July is gonna be our 500 show, so you should jump on the sponsorship bandwagon and

[00:51:19.97] spk_2:
I’ll talk to marketing. I’ll talk to talk to our marketing.

[00:51:26.30] spk_0:
Okay. Um yeah. Cougar Mountain is already on. Um okay, so that go back to what you were saying? What you expect to see we’re

[00:53:39.84] spk_2:
going to see more. So a MP, for instance, they they’ve created So NTC has done community submission. So, you know, for instance, Dion, one is doing ah, Siris of Webinars and things of that nature specific. Teoh Cove in 19. Um, you know, virtual events, virtual galas, that type of situation. We have some interesting things around, live streaming with our partners That tilt if I, for instance, you know, silent auctions with click bid, Um, on then all of this needing to go back to a database of records so you can cultivate that relationship. But it’s also interesting to see what a f P has done, which is that they association fundraising professionals. Basically, that was going to back to back Ah, this week. So, you know, my wife was gonna hate the the fact that, um, you know, I was gonna be gone for a week, But be careful what you wish for, I guess in terms of my wife, um So if he’s done a full virtual conference and I think we’re going to see more and more of those supplementary things because even if you can get thousands of people in one space, which we will, that will happen again once once, you know it’s going to take months, but it’s gonna happen. I do still think from an equity standpoint that virtual conferences are, uh, are going to start popping up mawr as Look, you can’t make the physical thing, then come to our virtual conference. And I think we’re going to see more and more of that not only from an equity standpoint, inaccessibility standpoint, but just because it’s good business as well. Um, I mean, we’re spitting up our first virtual conference, and we actually planned it months before any of this happened. But, um uh, you know, it’s in April, April 16th and it’s gonna be on giving events, you know, 1st 1st virtual conference ever on forgiving event hosts. You know, if you want to run a giving day for your college, for your community, um, you know, we said, Hey, let’s start now, do it. But we had to shift the tone. You know, we had to shift some of the sessions, obviously. Ah, but what What’s actually encouraging is the data that we’re seeing is that we’re seeing massive spikes in people starting to pre pre donate or donate forgiving events. So the idea of giving vent think like giving Tuesday, right? Everybody goes to one site they donate to the community. We’re actually seeing a lot of this stuff go up very encouraging numbers when it comes to online donations popping up

[00:53:53.58] spk_0:
before before the actual day.

[00:53:55.61] spk_2:
Yes, yeah, so we’ve we’ve opened up the days Ah Teoh do early registration and stuff like that because And actually, what’s interesting is that Arizona gives, for instance, which is, I think, April 11th this year they had about 720 organizations log on and register for the platform there, almost 1000 at this point. So more and more non profits are saying you know what we want. We want to invest in and work with our community, and that’s it’s a rising tides situation. So giving events, if there’s one in your community join it doesn’t matter if it’s neon one or whatever, just do it because it’s gonna get a lot more attention this year

[00:54:33.60] spk_0:
and we gotta wrap up so I could stay on schedule. Let’s give a shout out to your what do you have coming up in April and where, where people go to find out about on April what 16th?

[00:54:41.44] spk_2:
Yes, April 16th and we have a ton of resource is that we’re rolling out over the course of the next few weeks, including Ah, you know, just go tony on one dot com and we’re gonna have a dedicated page just for all of some rapid response resource is to get funds into nonprofits hands quicker. That is what we need right now because then they can tell their story better. So that’s what we’re gonna be doing.

[00:55:08.39] spk_0:
I want to compliment you on being coordinated between your T shirt and that portrait on your say that is that portrait on the wall in red and black

[00:55:11.22] spk_2:
that is shaken Avara

[00:57:15.85] spk_0:
of our Congratulations on your coordination. Thank you. He’s Tim San Antonio director, Strategic partnerships at Neon one. Thank you very much, Tim. Thank you. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC, as we mentioned. Sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution? Thank you for that Thumbs up. All right. Made for non profits made for non profits. It’s great. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for 40 free 60 day trial. Thanks so much reading with us next week. Lawrence Paige No Ni returns with his new book, Fundraising 401 I wonder if he’s inspired by Fahrenheit 911 and I still wish you would pronounce his name Panyu. Tony, I have not forgotten that if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com. I’m gonna challenge him with that Panyu tony. Maybe I don’t have done that before, but he can count on it again were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for you non for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo Ah, creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff. I did the post production Sam Liebowitz managed extremely shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by Scots. They’re with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for May 15, 2020: Leadership & Donor Advised Funds

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My Guests:

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward: Leadership
In two recent shows, guests agreed that Amy Sample Ward represents a shining example of vulnerable leadership. So who better to speak to about leadership—whether in a crisis or not? She’s CEO of NTEN and our technology and social media contributor.

 

Maria Semple

Maria Semple: Donor Advised Funds
Let’s relieve the misery of DAFs. There may be a lot you cannot find, but you’re not helpless. Maria Semple has advice and resources for finding and reaching the funds. She’s our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder.

 

 

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[00:00:11.14] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit

[00:00:16.08] spk_2:
ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly

[00:02:03.74] spk_1:
named host. I’m continuing with a dizzy production, audacity and zoom. No studio. I don’t know if you can hear that ocean. I hear the ocean. It’s not digital. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of ridiculous senioritis if you unnerved me with the idea that you missed today’s show leadership. In two recent shows, my guests agreed that Amy Sample Ward represents a shining example of vulnerable leadership. So who better to speak to about leadership, whether in a crisis or not? Then Amy Sample Ward. She’s CEO of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor and donor advised funds. Let’s relieve the misery of donor advised funds. There may be a lot you cannot find, but you’re not helpless. Maria Simple has advice, and resource is for finding and reaching the funds. She’s our prospect research contributor and the Prospect Finder. Last week I did say we’d have a 20 TC panel with Maria. Leadership just felt more timely on tony steak, too. Take 1/3 breath were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is leadership with Amy Sample

[00:02:13.94] spk_2:
Ward. It’s always a pleasure to welcome you, Amy Sample Ward. And there you are. This is not like you have to wait until I say, you know, there you are. You’re already here. You’re here,

[00:02:15.53] spk_4:
you know? And I get to see you, you know, normally shows or like, over the phone or whatever, So yeah, I can see you. Um, thank you for such a kind intro.

[00:02:33.34] spk_2:
Love it, actually, yes. That, uh, uh let me also remind people that, uh, you your you’re you blogged at, uh you still blogging any sample ward dot or

[00:02:44.50] spk_4:
ge? I mean, I do have the website, but normally, if I’m writing something that’s either for in 10 or yeah,

[00:02:48.53] spk_2:
I’ll scratch that no more. Aimee Semple ward dot org’s is still at a me R s board. Always very good. Okay,

[00:02:52.40] spk_4:
Yes. Happy to tony.

[00:03:04.54] spk_2:
So? So Yes. Two different panels, at least one of which is a special episode. So people have already heard it. Maybe both of them. But, um, you, Ah, I brought you up, actually, as an example of vulnerable leadership. And the panels agreed immediately. So it wasn’t just wasn’t only me saying it.

[00:03:13.90] spk_1:
And then

[00:03:14.30] spk_4:
we’ll have to go find those people. Send them in. Thank you. Guessed

[00:03:32.64] spk_2:
it was about one is about leadership. And the other one was about team care. I think I’m pretty sure those were the two. So that was the leadership. One was leadership number one for our special episodes. But here we are, the ship to so vulnerable leadership. What does that does that mean to you?

[00:04:00.34] spk_4:
Um, you know, it’s not necessarily a phrase that I would use because I guess maybe the phrase I would use and what that term means to me is just authentic leadership. You know, I think you can’t be authentic if you aren’t being all sides of your emotions. You know, if there’s only like, 11 version of how you are, then I don’t think it creates a lot of space for the folks that work with you, whether inside the organization or outside to feel like they’re allowed to have multiple emotions or thoughts. You know, if you’re kind of setting the precedent, that that’s the way you expect others to be When when you hold yourself to that,

[00:04:22.44] spk_2:
Okay. Authentic, I think.

[00:04:24.15] spk_4:
Yeah. I mean, we can see we can use vulnerable. That’s just, you know, maybe not the language that I think of myself.

[00:04:32.94] spk_2:
Okay, Um, authentic ce Fine. Yeah, but it z it suggests Ah, on honesty on open. Right. Ah, collaboration.

[00:04:52.04] spk_4:
Totally. And I don’t think, you know, I love that you use the word collaboration because that’s what I think about. A lot is like, if you really collaborating with other folks, you’re all kind of joining unequal space, right? To share ideas or talker. Come up with whatever the work is your your collaborating on and the same would be true in leadership and tough times, right? Like you have to really meet and create a space where everyone can have all those emotions and work through it together. Otherwise, you aren’t really in partnership with each other. Right? You are. You’re somehow separate from everyone.

[00:05:36.94] spk_2:
Yeah, right now there are There are leaders who are not of this ilk. They would say that, you know, emotions, emotions in the workplace. Um, they don’t that they really don’t belong. You obviously

[00:06:57.64] spk_4:
don’t agree with that. You you know, I think if you don’t have, if you don’t have the kind of emotional intelligence Teoh experience those emotions identify those emotions, understand where they’re coming from and where they’re trying Teoh lead you or what they’re telling you about how you’re taking an information, then you’re not really using all the tools that nature has given you, right? I mean, a big part of being a leader is developing a really strong gut, right? Being able to like, go do your research but also have, like, you know, in the moment where things should go right, like that’s I always think a great sign of someone that, um has strong leadership, regardless of the job title, is that they’ve developed a really strong gut. And the way you do that is 100% pure emotion. By understanding like how your body is reacting in the moment, Teoh an idea or two. A conflict and understanding. Not just best. Oh, I’m having this emotion. But I know why I’m having this emotion. I know where it’s leading me. I know what my gut is telling me to do right now, you know? So if you feel like emotions aren’t welcome or not professional or shouldn’t be in your workplace, I really worry that that has hampered the ability for both you and your staff toe like truly use all their skills

[00:07:03.74] spk_2:
and then but in the same but same talking, you have to be empathic right t to recognize the emotions in others through, um, official expressions, body language, tone. Right there. I start watering, were smiling. Let’s not keep it all negative. You right there smiling there. Um, so you have to see the emotion. I

[00:07:26.04] spk_4:
think that’s the piece that takes,

[00:07:27.76] spk_2:
you know, a

[00:08:35.74] spk_4:
lot of takes a lot out of people you know is is being able to not just read and understand how others are feeling, but kind of react to that. I don’t see manager because it’s not your job to, like, manage their feelings, but be able to react to it and and both of you have a strong interaction. You know, um, I also think there’s something I see a lot in the nonprofit sector that leads to burnout us folks truly being so empathetic that they’re taking on that emotional burden of either their staff for their community that they serve. You know, it’s something to be able to read and understand and operate within emotions. And it’s another to feel like you are carrying those emotions for your staff, you know, And it’s a lot to carry our own emotions alone, like 20 more people’s emotions, you know, And you ultimately can’t do that at least not very long without burning out. You know, so understanding how you can except and address and engage those emotions that your staff maybe having whether again, whether they’re positive or negative, and and then move forward so that you aren’t just feeling then responsible for every feeling that that person has, you know.

[00:08:51.78] spk_2:
So when you’re feeling emotional about something, getting feeling an emotional reaction or you’re sensing it in the person you’re talking to, you make it explicit. Do you? Yeah, comfortable enough space that you start talking about. You know, you raised the fact let’s put aside what we’re talking about. I’m getting a reaction from you or I’m feeling this reaction to what? Your Let’s talk about how we’re feeling.

[00:10:27.84] spk_4:
I mean, I think it’s hard to put anything aside. So in the moment, you know, just saying I’m really feeling this or how are you feeling about this conversation? You know, I think, and that as adults we have, especially in this sector, we have very complicated feelings. Sometimes often the feelings are like personally feeling challenged by something and at the same time knowing how much we might have to do it, you know? And it creates like an emotional conflict within ourselves. Teoh, hold two things that are maybe opposite at the same time. You know, um and just letting folks have the space to say how they’re feeling. Not just Do you know what your next steps are? Please go do them, you know, like, how do you feel about them? Because I feel like if folks don’t have space to maim and share and address how they’re feeling about things when they go to to move forward with those next steps, they’re either not going to go as maybe effectively or efficiently as they could because they’re still like, caught up in processing how they feel about them, you know? So just spending that probably shorter amount of time undressing how folks are feeling together essentially like speeds up them being able to go do the work. You know,

[00:11:10.80] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As We received our P PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven? It sounds like this is sounding abs, religion, absolution. I absolve you. You are absolved. Um, but it is just forgiveness, not absolution. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events to find out more about these p p p loans and forgiveness. Now back to leadership with Amy Sample Ward.

[00:12:17.54] spk_2:
I identified you as AH vulnerable leader because of the video that you posted on the Internet website that was announcing the decision to cancel the to cancel the 2020 NTC, the non profit at the conference. And there were I think there were two times in that video that we saw you wiped tears from your eyes. And not only that, but you opened up to the fact that the conference represents 62% of and tens revenue for the year. So you’re not only gonna be without that revenue, then you also had penalties that have to be paid on. So new and additional expenses penalties paid for contracts that had medical. Um, so the I guess the parts where you were teary, tearful, you didn’t. Or did you think about taking those out of the video or or doing a take to where you will be showing less emotion to the public?

[00:12:25.74] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, at that point in the day, I didn’t know that there were tears left. I’d already cried in in every in every phone call I had for that day, you know? So I kind of thought I was dehydrated enough. Do not have that you bore

[00:12:42.07] spk_2:
about just just last month. I mean, yes, maybe our recording on April 28th it was Yeah. It was just last month that this will happen.

[00:12:53.50] spk_4:
I have goose bumps with you, just describing the day and having to make the video

[00:12:56.85] spk_2:
by our watering a little bit thinking about you.

[00:16:58.34] spk_4:
Yeah. I mean, I think the I mean, you know me, like I’m usually a one take person like, Well, however, that went is how it went, you know, But I guess that’s back to the authentic piece. But, you know, I also I mean, I got to the end of the video. I felt pretty good for, like, being able to continue talking. I never had to stop and cry. That felt that was kind of my bar, you know, like, I continue to talk the whole time, so that wasn’t success. And then, you know, I do it Thomas, our communications director, and said like, I cannot watch myself say those things again. So you watch the video. If you think I’m not holding it together enough, you know, I can try and do it again. And he was like, no thistles sign. You don’t have to try and do this again, you know, um but I think I have had a lot of seen back. I mean, I’m someone who cries. There are lots of people that cry, you know? Oh, and crying is great and healthy. And to me, feels like a clear sign that I I opened up the channels so that my my heart and my body can tell me when I’m feeling certain things, you know? And, um, I always cried the NTC, you know, because there’s such incredible, passionate folks. They’re sharing their stories. There are really wonderful people. Well, that we’re highlighting our awards. You know, I just get sad. That’s the last day, and everyone’s gonna leave. So, um e I have gotten feedback in the past, especially from women or non binary folks in the community that getting to see said someone willing to cry has made them feel like bay themselves. As someone who has those emotions is not unprofessional, you know, and is not doing something wrong, and she wouldn’t be who they are. So I appreciate those folks giving that kind of generous feedback. Like I you know, we don’t necessarily have a relationship. You have to tell me that, you know, So that’s a huge gift. But I also thought about that in the video after, you know, after Thomas said he was gonna use that and he said, like, it looks like you’re crying. Are you OK with us putting that out there and it was just like, this is really effin hard. Yeah, like I held it together. So I’m buying with with that. And like, maybe people won’t notice that don’t know me are paying this close attention to the video, you know? So I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, but it is really hard to say those things especially, you know, of course, we all the world is different now, and all these weeks later, we know a different truth. But at that time, these things were not known, you know? So, um, there’s there’s no reason that saying something hard has to be, like, straight faced and going No emotionless. Yeah. Um I mean, it was just just like a few, like the following sunday. Maybe after we canceled staff a staff person posted in our slack account that the Baltimore Convention Center, where we were meant to hold the conference was gonna be in Baltimore, was being transition to be a field hospital for Kobe patients. And it was like it was just a ah, huge emotional release for so many of us. Not necessarily sad, but just all those emotions, you know, that like we had put so much work into planning what we would do in that at space. And now, instead of us being there, there’s patients, you know. And what is that? How does that reflect on everything that we must have just gone through? So I don’t think there’s any way to have made that video or to have talked about that decision or those times without with without a lot of emotions, you know?

[00:17:33.84] spk_2:
Well, I admire the the willingness to share emotion and also to accept it in others. I I can’t only see how that would create a more collaborative, cohesive team, closer relationships with each individual team member on then and then as a result of a more cohesive team Overall, Uh, I can’t see. You know, I don’t I don’t understand people who, um, think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness, right? No, that makes you somehow makes you weak, and you have to be stoic. All

[00:19:41.06] spk_4:
right, very. It’s a very like white, dominant capitalist, patriarchal, even mode of thinking, right, because emotion and those paradigms is feminine and feminine is bad. Where we all have all of those traders, you know, and that emotion is uncontrolled, and that’s not good right, Those air, those air bodies of thought that want control. Um And I guess I also just would love a world where those air, not the bodies of thought, were operating with them. Right? That like we’re not We’re not here. T get the last dollar out of everything that I believe as a community, we have all the resources we need for the rural we want. It’s about working and really station ship with each other so that we can use those resources in the right ways, you know? And I think that piece about being in relationship with each other is the piece I think about. You know, when you’re talking about vulnerable leadership like if you’re in a relationship, you expect to be vulnerable with that person and have that person be vulnerable with you, right? That’s but so much of of kind of the U. S. Culture is like relationships are Onley romantic relationships like there are partner or spouse. Relationships are every person that we interact with, right? And if you’re really entering those conversations, those friendships in relationship with each other, you should be vulnerable with each other. You should be comfortable being vulnerable with each other. You know, like you and I have had off camera off camera, off audio, very vulnerable conversations, right about, like, personal growth and things that we want to work on. And that means that other craft conversations we have that maybe oranges emotional or art is vulnerable are better because we’ve also been able to have those other types of conversations, you know? So I think seeing leadership as maybe the person who stewards those relationships within the organization changes again the role in the dynamic of emotion there that you’re almost the one that has to be even more vulnerable because you’re the one saying we are in relationship here, you know? And we really should have have these connections with each other.

[00:20:39.84] spk_2:
See, this is why you’re the person who writes the books because you see, you take this from the microcosm that that we were talking about. And then you extrapolated to the broader community that has sufficient resources to achieve the missions and the goals that we want. If we could just channel those and work together. Yeah, you have ah, way of seeing the big picture. Thank you. I admire which I’d mind. Yeah, that’s a Europe. Yeah. You’re the book writing people. You know, things. If you have the books in you and those of us who have the more I don’t know, maybe more.

[00:20:42.74] spk_4:
The area is

[00:20:51.54] spk_2:
where the grounded worth the grounded level. But you take it to the next level. Um, well, so

[00:20:52.32] spk_4:
what? So can I, like, reverse the interview and s

[00:20:57.27] spk_2:
so I don’t like when, uh, you know,

[00:20:59.06] spk_4:
you don’t. That’s why I e

[00:21:02.05] spk_1:
ever turned you down. Maybe I did in the beginning.

[00:21:19.64] spk_4:
So? So just as like, a thought experiment. Not that you have toe, you know, share something that you don’t want to share on the air. But you know it. There are there examples when, like, what’s your anti? See a video? What’s what? You had to share something. It is not to being broadcast with the world like our video, but you know it. Is there something that wasn’t wasn’t bound within a romantic relationship, but was an example where you were having to share information or news or ask a question that required your vulnerability in relationship with someone professional?

[00:22:13.04] spk_2:
Yeah. The ones that come to mind are a couple of a couple of shows. A ah show on diversity equity and inclusion with Jean Takagi. Where we, you know, we talked explicitly about white male power. Yeah. Ah, and history. Um, and then another one that you and I did I don’t remember Was that it was at a d I conversation? No, it was when you and I talked about poverty. Porn?

[00:22:19.29] spk_4:
Oh, yeah,

[00:22:25.44] spk_2:
that was, uh, that was a moving one for, um, So those are those are a couple of those mind. Yeah.

[00:22:31.06] spk_4:
Thanks for sharing. What is Iris? Yeah, I know. You want to turn it back around?

[00:23:51.94] spk_2:
No, no, because I there there are There are people who have, you know, have this format, But going back decades, um, who I admire like Dick Cavett. Cavite is ah, seems to be a very vulnerable and authentic host of his show. And there’s hundreds of clips on YouTube of him. Yeah, and he opens up, and I you know, um, there are other folks as well. Ah, maybe lesser known, you know, but that I take cues from yeah, producing the show. But in being a host, like the host guest interaction, Dick Cavett is is my number one because he because he is so authentic. Yeah, so it doesn’t, you know, Yeah, I think those were sort of breakthrough moments. I would count those. I don’t know if you count your in 10. You know, the NTC cancellation video is a as a highlight of your career, but when those conversations happen, it’s completely organic. You know? I know D eyes a sensitive topic, but I didn’t know that I was going to get emotional with g discussing it. Right. But

[00:24:41.44] spk_4:
I think part of that reflection that you’re having is also the acknowledgement that whether the topic is sensitive or not, it’s that you feel personally responsible for your actions within that topic, right? Like I think about, um, I have some friends who have had a history with cancer, and, you know, when they share stories of Dr that was like and here’s like the news, blah, blah, blah, it’s so hard. And somehow it is easier when the doctor is also sad, you know, and feeling like this is really hard. We’re gonna talk about this. We’re also gonna talk about treatment and and whatever, but you don’t have to not share the news, But you also don’t have to share it in a cold way. You can be. You can you can share in that kind of personal space of that topic with someone, and I kind of hear that in your reflection. You know that? Yeah. Is it? It’s a hard topic, but you were willing to be kind of responsible for yourself in that topic, you know?

[00:26:02.35] spk_2:
Um, all right, So how does it let’s bring it back this back to the leadership, then? Yes, Um, where we’re talking about being open emotionally, being authentic, Um, empathic, I think subsumed in all this is listening, active listening as well as feeling emotion, hearing words as well as as well as taking in the full person. Not just not only what they’re saying, but listening to their words. Um, curious minded, sometimes in leadership, uh, one of the at least one of these, uh, previous special episodes. The idea being curious minded, you know? Yeah. Asking questions, not just taking what said. And I guess, you know, ignoring your own questions about it, being willing to admit that you don’t understand something that someone has just explained you know, maybe you’re hearing it for the first time. It doesn’t have to be a technical subject. You know, it could be a to be a very emotional subject, but you just don’t You don’t quite you don’t grasp. But you’re curious enough and authentic enough to ask, you know, could you flesh it out more?

[00:26:21.08] spk_4:
Yeah. Being curiosity is

[00:26:25.60] spk_2:
I just don’t understand what you’re all

[00:28:31.24] spk_4:
right. I think curiosity is something that folks could use so much more. I feel like I don’t hear folks talk about curiosity very much. And I feel like it could be a pass for all of the times When you’re like, I don’t get what you’re saying instead of having to say or fight and some nice way to say, like, can you please repeat that? Because I don’t understand. You could say I’m really curious, you know, like, can you keep talking about it because I’m just very curious. And using curiosity as Urine road both for understanding and kind of letting folks further explain themselves is such a kind of positive neutral entry point instead of you’re not making sense, right? Or you did not explain that to May right. It’s like I’m curious. Please just keep keep explaining. You know, um and I think the other part of what you’re saying there is acknowledging that as a leader. And again, I don’t think a leader is only someone who has, like, CEOs, their job title. Anyone in any moment is maybe the leader right of their project on their team or whatever, but acknowledging that you don’t already know everything in my experience, that looks like not knowing how to do any certain thing that pops up as an organization. It’s so much more freeing for me as an individual t just openly say, Well, it’s certainly never canceled the NTC before. So, like, I don’t have answers to your questions about what we’re about to do. But I know that we’re gonna stay in relationship. We’re going to stay in this room. We’re gonna stay in this together, and collectively we will figure out the answers to those questions. We will figure out what it is we need to do, and then we will do it, you know. But, um releases myself of having to, like, anticipate every single question to know the answer. When, of course, I don’t know those answers. I’ve never done this before. A lot of people, you know? I mean, we’re on our, uh, you event planners association list. And everyone in March was like, I’ve literally never canceled an event What we stole student yet saying, because that’s not the world that we’ve ever lived in. So getting to let go of that expectation for yourself, Let’s your staff again. Let’s hold it for themselves. You know? And I think more deeply creates unauthentic relationship where staff could say, wow, Amy openly admitted that she had no idea what she was doing. Now, I don’t feel as much pressure to say I don’t know what I’m doing. Can you help? You know, and

[00:28:52.24] spk_2:
coming from that creates, I think, builds confidence in the team that can. None of us knows now, but collective 20

[00:28:59.63] spk_4:
four hours later, collectively, we figured out

[00:29:02.08] spk_2:
we’re gonna figure it out. Yeah,

[00:29:03.39] spk_4:
Yeah, totally. I think it builds a lot of the like resilience muscles, you know, because people have experienced Whoa, I’m up against the wall. I don’t know what to dio. We set out loud that we don’t know what to do. We came up with a plan together, we implemented the plan. Look, now we’re moving forward, Okay? Next time I’m up against that wall of I don’t know, I can say, Oh, I’ve been here before Like I have the muscle memory to say, Hey, like, even faster this time I’m gonna raise the flag that I don’t know what to do. And I need help, you know? And it cuts down on all that shirt, You know, Um and it makes it less emotionally trying, I think because you’ve already done it Waas, you know, And now you could say, Oh, it wasn’t like this. It wasn’t Is that as I thought? So it’s not gonna sting when I say, hey, I don’t really know what

[00:29:47.89] spk_3:
to do. Yeah, through

[00:29:49.37] spk_2:
that NTC cancellation in 21. Wait,

[00:30:00.54] spk_4:
do anything now? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:30:01.74] spk_6:
Um let’s talk a

[00:30:28.89] spk_2:
little about self care, as as a leader Teoh to be authentic and vulnerable. Um, I think there are things you have to do for yourself when you’re when you’re not. You’re not the CEO. Um, how do you know if you think about it explicitly is I’m gonna take care of myself. you probably don’t. That sounds that sounds too. I e take care of myself so I can take care of intent and the technology in the non profit space now. But

[00:31:38.30] spk_4:
I think about it. More regeneration. You know, whether I need to have energy again for tomorrow. Or sometimes I’m looking at my calendar for the day, and I think, like, what do I need to have the energy I need for for those other meetings I see coming up, Like, I might see that there’s a meeting that I know is gonna take a lot, you know, And there I’m sure many people listening to this understand, like sometimes you wake up and you look at your calendar you like, how do I have literally eight hours straight of back to back meetings like this is not a human’s schedule. So I will bump some of those meetings and give myself okay. I think I need this pacing. I think I’m gonna need a break before this other, you know, discussion or whatever. Um, and move those meetings, but so there’s like the tactical calendar management. I really do think it’s self care if you are setting yourself up to have days that aren’t sustainable. You’re not gonna make it through, you know? And yes, we all have demands on our time, But we’re also in charge of our time and we can say actually, have two minute insisted I’m gonna be present with you. So why should we even bother talking? You know, let’s move to me.

[00:31:42.81] spk_2:
You are in control of your own calendar.

[00:33:24.54] spk_4:
Yeah, and the other thing that I have found, at least for me, is having a really strong meditation. Practice helps on a daily or multiple times a day place because for me and you know, this is just what works for me and my personality and my mind, this doesn’t like prescriptive. And of course, if you don’t do this, something’s wrong. But for me being able to sit with how I’m feeling with how I’m reflecting on actions or conversations, being able to like, kind of come home and be accountable to myself is the hardest judge. It’s a lot easier, I think, people, I think it’s easier for folks that I work with our relationships with Teoh Teoh, give me a pass out of things that I know. I’m gonna be harder on myself than someone else. What? I think that’s true for many of us, right? We’re always our harshest critic, so accepting that in creating space where I’m really just sitting with myself and having to accept and let go or process or or make a plan for something has helped me tremendously because I can then let go of something instead of, you know, kind of keeping it in the doctor, my mind haunting May as I move forward, I could say, actually, like, clearly that didn’t go the way I wanted it to go. I wasn’t the version of myself I wanted to be. And, you know, there’s been whatever restoration I’ve apologized or I’ve talked to that person. But that piece is done, and the peace with myself is still there. And using meditation as a process for kind of accepting myself on letting those things go has has really created a lot of space, I think, for growth in my in myself and in my job,

[00:33:36.34] spk_2:
its authenticity with yourself. Yeah, comfort with yourself.

[00:34:06.24] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, And I think the biggest lesson honestly is, except like I’m someone who loves to learn. I think that if you already know everything about what you’re doing, you’re probably quite bored. You know, I’m glad that I show up to work and like what I do, What I have to do today. Let’s get this out. You know, that feels great. It’s like I get to stretch every day. Um, but it also means that I have to learn things the hard way, you know, because I didn’t already know them. And so having that meditation practice, just sit with myself and say like, it’s OK that I didn’t know that it’s okay that I learned it in a real rough way, you know, and and really think about what? Out of that experience I did learn and back to what we were saying earlier. Like all of those pieces of acceptance and acknowledgement and and reflection kind of get filtered in to building a stronger and stronger gut, you know, so that the next time I’m in that situation, I can hear and listen and say, Oh, I know what’s happening here. Like I’ve got all those little puzzle pieces telling me this is the same as that one time, you know and know how to move forward in the moment,

[00:34:57.24] spk_2:
I feel like leaving it there. Is there anything? Is there anything you wanna you want to leave our listeners with?

[00:35:36.84] spk_4:
I guess I would say, Of course, everything I’ve shared is my own experience in reflection, and we’re all different people. But if there’s part of you that’s wishing that you had done something differently or could be more vulnerable with your staff, or just operate Maurin relationship with the people that you collaborate with, you can just start doing that. There doesn’t have to be like announcement that’s rolled out that today you will start, you know, operating differently or communicating differently. You don’t You don’t need to save it because you’ve operated a certain way. You have to stay in that way like we’re humans, and we’re meant to change and evolve and grow. So if you want to be more open, just start being more open. Even if it feels awkward at first. You’ll get better at it cause your practice, you know, and then you can can have that be your default,

[00:36:08.08] spk_2:
every sample ward. Love it. Thank you CEO and our social media, social media and technology contributor and you’ll find her at a me R s Ward. Thank you very much.

[00:36:11.93] spk_4:
Thank you, tony.

[00:36:17.33] spk_2:
So good to talk to you. Yeah, like here. Keep

[00:36:17.65] spk_1:
taking care. Yeah. Keep taking care of yourself.

[00:36:19.83] spk_4:
Yes. Stay well.

[00:36:22.12] spk_2:
You too.

[00:39:28.11] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that you can count on and that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. Take 1/3 breath. I’m tripling down on my relax ation advice. It is not merely okay for you to put yourself first at some time each day. It’s essential you have to do it. Make time for yourself each day. Make it the same time each day. If that helps you remember to do it. Hopefully you don’t have to forget you don’t forget that you come first sometime. But I understand working through your in a you’re gonna flow. I understand that. So maybe making it a definite set time. Each day helps you to put aside that time for yourself. But you’re being asked to do stuff that you hadn’t done before in ways and in a place, your home. But with, you know, circumstances around that you haven’t been asked before. And if you have Children, then you’re being asked to do all this while your kids are home. It takes toll on you, so you need to take time for yourself to rejuvenate its not just relaxing. It’s rejuvenating its recovering time recovery time. So please take that time for yourself. For me, I go outside. Um, like I said earlier, I don’t know if you can hear the ocean in the background, but it’s there. Um, I got this ocean across the street every day. I wake up it ZX still there, so I go outside 2030 minutes. Maybe it’s Ah, lunch, uh, or just sitting. If it’s not nice enough outside, then I sit inside and have lunch inside, looking out of the ocean or just watching sitting on the sofa watching. So whatever it is for you, you may not have a notion. Ah, what can you do for yourself. A walk, a trip to a park? Uh, it may be It may be listening to music. Um, if that’s if that’s good for you, whatever it is that can help you to rejuvenate Recover, do it. Take the time for yourself each day, please. That is tony. Stick to now. It’s time for donor advised funds with Maria. Simple.

[00:39:45.22] spk_6:
My pleasure to welcome back Maria. Simple. You know who she is? She’s the Prospect Finder and our Prospect research contributor. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at the Prospect Finder. Reassemble. Welcome back.

[00:39:47.12] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. Good to be here.

[00:40:22.91] spk_6:
Yes. Well, I’m sorry you can’t be with me at the beach. I don’t know if the video is gonna turn out okay, but I just decided that any schmoe could record on zoom and put an ocean background, uh, behind them. But, uh, any Schmo can’t just walk to the beach and get unauthentic ocean background. So I’ve got one good using card. I’m tired of being in just any Schmo. No, I’m breaking out now. No, no, no. Most smiles. You know, most smoke for may. You’re doing a okay, right?

[00:40:24.71] spk_3:
We’re doing just fine. Thank you. Yeah. Like you were blessed to live near near the water and can get out for a beautiful walk. Clear your head and get some fresh air.

[00:41:05.01] spk_6:
Yeah, I’m looking East, Uh, in your direction. Right now, you’re several miles up or over, actually, not up, but, uh, looking east. I’m looking in your direction. Nice point. Puffy clouds you got there. So we’re talking about donor advised funds. What? Yeah, you know, they’ve been around for years or nothing new? Uh, no, that it could be a source of headache for non profits. Why do you feel like now is a good time to talk about it? Well, you know, I’ve been hearing a

[00:41:38.77] spk_3:
lot of discussion about them recently, and I think that, um, about sure if that’s because in this period of cove, it a lot of people are using their donor advised funds to make some contributions to organizations to help them out. But I started doing a little bit of digging to see really just how large feet I’m going to say the industry because the come and what I found was this report that’s put out annually by something called the National Philanthropic Trust. And they dio a donor advised fund report every year. And I couldn’t believe when I saw that the, um the rapid growth that they’ve had, that they had an 86% increase in contributions in the last five years to donor advised funds.

[00:42:02.40] spk_6:
Okay, that’s money. That’s money into donor advised funds. How about money coming out of them getting into charities hands

[00:42:50.68] spk_3:
so that that number was 23.42 billion with a B. No, I feel very significant number. And so, anyway, it’s just something that I thought we hadn’t covered really in the show and something that we probably shouldn’t ignore. Um, it’s really vexing for fundraisers for prospect researchers because, um, donors will often set these up as a way to perhaps give Anonymous anonymously in some cases, although, according to Fidelity, about 90% of donors go ahead and say, you know, release my name and contact information to the non profit when I make this gift. So I thought it was something we could at least explore talking about.

[00:43:34.80] spk_6:
Yeah, I think vexing is ah, good way to describe it, because I’ve been hearing this for years, that charities get frustrated when ah, get these gifts and they they have to then follow up with the company of the administrator for the for the of the fund and and plead for donor information, sometimes to get it. Sometimes they don’t wait. You just said about ability. Um, I don’t know that older people I know all the times don’t do that because we’re hearing these frustrations for years. So, uh, all right, so you got some ideas about what we can we can do to overcome these vexations?

[00:45:42.01] spk_3:
Yes. So I thought we talked about some prospecting. Resource is, you know, to do some proactive prospecting. Obviously, if you have the name of the donor advised fund, you would do some additional research on it. But you can also, um, just try and do some proactive prospecting. Your resource is you can use for free. Um, and fee based resource is as well. So let’s start with free, right? You can certainly try and Google, right? You can google the ah donor advised fund and maybe your state and see how maney come up in maybe articles or listing somewhere in a state listing. But I thought guidestar had some some pretty good information for for the nonprofits to start doing some proactive prospecting and list building of donor advised funds that might be in their in their area. Um, so one example that I that I pulled waas um, I just went ahead and searched just on the term donor. Advised I left off the word fund. I just you know, sometimes less is more when you’re doing these these types of searches. Okay, So I typed in the word donor advised in guidestar. Um, and this is under a free account, and I, uh, down nationwide, it came back with 527 search results. Um, I was able to sort by gross receipts. That was interesting to me. Just to kind of see, you know, largest to smallest type. Um, and top top number one, As you might expect, we’ve already mentioned it with fidelity. Um, so number one came up its fidelity number two Jewish Communal Fund number three, Goldman Sachs, Philip Philanthropy Fund number four, Silicon Valley Community Foundation and number five. You guess number your

[00:45:42.97] spk_6:
your community trust.

[00:45:48.99] spk_3:
Actually, no, it’s Ah, vanguard. Okay. I want to be able

[00:45:52.72] spk_6:
to guess that New York community profound spotless that for? Well, I just want to stay. Keep the guests. That newest community trust

[00:45:57.81] spk_3:
actually didn’t even make top 10.

[00:46:19.23] spk_6:
Alright, Alright, alright. So if we have these, all right, we have we have We know that we know all the players now. 520 some, uh, but there still is. The individuals control the money in the funds. What? What do we do now that we know the names of the funds? So one of the things

[00:47:11.38] spk_3:
that you could consider doing is seeing if the fund is somewhere nearby or whatever. Try and, um, you try and develop a relationship with some of the personnel at at the fund itself, right? So these would be employees don’t eyes front and not necessarily the family. Ultimately, if you see the family’s name attached so it might say something like, um, the Maria Simple Fund at Fidelity. Right? That might be the formal name that ends up coming through. So then you would research on that person’s name as much of a hand and using a lot of the research talked about here on the show minimum Coble, especially first time you’ve ever received a gift from EPA. Wow. That’s why.

[00:47:31.06] spk_6:
Wait. All right, So So you’re saying you first you search the fund in searching the funds and guidestar individual names come up. Is that what you’re saying? Well, I’m gonna be o

[00:47:54.88] spk_3:
of the big funds, but the smaller don’t recognised may have the person’s name as well, right? So you want to make sure that you’re just doing some in depth research, So even on the big ones you’re able, Teoh, you’re able to see a list of gifts, and they give how they paid out. Even look at every gift. Fidelity’s the Fidelity investment charitable gift, but is make, um and say you’ll have

[00:48:37.87] spk_6:
Okay. Okay, So you going todo and that. Okay, you look at the 9 90 of that funding. You can see the gifts that came from there. Right. Okay, right away. That’s down for Ah, a couple minutes before that. Was the Beach patrol going by one. Make sure everybody everybody knows this is an authentic background. I don’t want to be any any, uh, questioning of my integrity on background. That was the beach patrol girl by Okay, um, all right, So? Well, yeah, you could. You could start a cross match The larger fund names that you find with your with your own. Crn You could do that too,

[00:49:17.21] spk_3:
right? Right. Absolutely, Absolutely. Okay. Um, and and so, you know, like I said, for freight, somewhat limited as to what you can search for. One of the fee based resource is if I might just mention that people can take a look at and also get a free trial to, um is I wave, so you could definitely try it. Try that one out. Um, I had done a search nationwide to see just on the terminology advised fund and yielded over 16,000 results. Now, some were duplicates, right? So some were mentioned with months. Um, I just

[00:49:28.74] spk_6:
What? What is I wave? What is that? What does that have to do?

[00:49:33.17] spk_3:
So it is, um, It’s similar to, you know, we’ve talked about some of these other fee based resource is before, like, wealth and so forth. So it’s a tool that prospect researchers will use. That is a fee based resource. Um, and so you’re gonna get your yield a lot more surgeries, adults, and you can manipulate the data and export spread meats and so forth.

[00:50:03.61] spk_6:
So you could also use waiting for individual prospect research. Well, yes, absolutely. Get get out what people would get for their see if you have a struck tie with any idea what the seas are. Do you remember?

[00:50:13.60] spk_3:
Um, I don’t know right now, You know, I usually don’t like to try and get into that on your show because it lives forever. Right on your

[00:50:21.56] spk_6:
Well, yeah, I was, I would say it was from 2020 or something. Okay.

[00:50:25.74] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. So I would recommend because normally what will happen is you’re gonna Also it’s a screening tool. So you could also do it on entire screening of your database. So usually they’ll bundle it in, Um, you get a screening done, and then access to the to the search tools for, like, a year or something like that. So very often the fees are gonna be based on your dad.

[00:51:13.70] spk_1:
Time for our last break. Turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through this Corona virus cacophony. And you want to be heard other times beyond this. Of course, they know exactly what to do to make that happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot CEO, you’ve got but loads more time for donor advised funds.

[00:51:23.90] spk_6:
Okay, so you’re you’re against your cross referencing your search results with your own C r m.

[00:52:04.04] spk_3:
Right? Right. So, you know, I like the fact that you can exported into the spreadsheet again. You cross check it with your own C R M. Maybe circulated with Lauren Development Committee are other staff members And have a discussion. I started getting curious, you know, out of all those house. Well, how many of those funds donor advised funds are in North Carolina, right where we’re both residing and actually tries to order 177. Results from Dr Guys funds. It came up just in the last five years or so. Um, so

[00:52:08.25] spk_6:
that is it. Right? That doesn’t sound like very many. 177 donor advised fund gif ts the whole state of North Carolina for five years.

[00:52:16.56] spk_3:
No, those were a donor Advised funds.

[00:52:25.44] spk_6:
All those in the funds, not the gift from the OK, Those aren’t the individual accounts in the funds. Okay, There are almost 600 funds in North Carolina. OK, got you

[00:52:29.83] spk_3:
170 7

[00:52:34.65] spk_6:
177 OK? Yes. Yeah.

[00:53:13.42] spk_3:
Anyway, there certainly something Teoh look for. Especially if you’re trying to reach out to more regionalize families. And, you know, that might be concentrating there. They’re getting in your particular state because then you can see exactly where the gifts on. You know, the types of organizations that A that the owner of my sons have been looking for example. So you can see, you know, there that the gift that here was here, the gift was made. Ah, you can see the where the gift was made, the type of non profit that it is. It’s you. No, you can’t. Yes, You get a lot of data.

[00:53:39.99] spk_6:
Okay. So you could see the charities that they gave Teoh for those similar to your your work. Okay. Exactly. So maybe so. Maybe I waves worth the extra extra money. Whatever it iss. All right, just, uh I wave dot com or yeah, yeah. Oh, um, so couple other things

[00:54:44.24] spk_3:
I wanted to let everybody know about, um I learned that there’s a site e a f not award. Okay, DF direct and what they what you can do there is. It’s a great tool for non process use, and it facilitates giving, um, through donor advised funds. There’s a widget that you can add as a non profit chili gordo so that, as people are, you know, maybe research on their own and, you know, for non profits to donate to in their community, if they stumbled on your organization in their own search, right, maybe they’re using GuideStar or another similar tool to research nonprofits. If you come up and they get to your website, why not make it is easiest possible to connect directly from your website to their donor advised funds. So it’s a widget that connects don’t raise funds and to the donors.

[00:54:52.74] spk_6:
All right, so people are browsing your site. They can click on this and give

[00:54:53.29] spk_3:
him a

[00:55:01.74] spk_6:
group, right? But they have to have a donor advised fund at one of the one of the entities that coordinates or that’s affiliate with this ridge. It right?

[00:55:17.96] spk_3:
Yes, but so many of them are right now, so it’s definitely something that that actually was. I was doing my research for this show that came up multiple. Bless you.

[00:55:19.24] spk_6:
Told you I said I was gonna sneeze, but you’re that’s you’re talking.

[00:55:23.93] spk_3:
So it definitely is worth looking at that site and seeing if that’s a widget. You may want to add to your own website because it’s gonna cost anything.

[00:55:45.67] spk_6:
Okay, Okay. And they’re affiliated with some of the top ones. Okay. All right. Um, you could also be talking to your You know, you could always reach out to your donors. Um, through Europe, you’re here. Whatever your channels are to remind them that they can make their own donor advised fund distribution. You know, technically, it’s a recommendation. But 99.9% of the recommendations get accepted. Approved. But, you know, you could just be directly reminding donors that they can give to you through their donor advised fund.

[00:56:09.13] spk_3:
That’s right. That’s right. So make sure that Burbage is on your website and any other marketing materials and communications that you have.

[00:56:24.73] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. Just remind you people. Um okay. I mean, that that was an easy one. Just what else? Ah, you’ve been thinking about this longer than I have what else will?

[00:56:28.98] spk_3:
So the other thing, too that I think some people forget to ask for is to set up recurring gif ts to your organization. So if you’re already getting some money from a donor advised fund, why not approach those that family and see if they’d be interested in setting up recurring donations to your organization? Supposed to a one once a year gift. So very often it’s very easy for the fund administrator to set that up for you. Um, so that would be a great way to bring in some additional, more consistent cash flow here, or there you

[00:57:02.20] spk_6:
go. Yeah, right. Sustaining sustainer gifts from donor advised funds. Okay.

[00:57:07.97] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. Um, and then, you know, finally, you want to think about success successor gifts, So you can have, um the organization can be named as his successor after the donor dies. So you you know, as you know, tony and plan giving and so forth the language has to be set up properly and so forth, so that might be a discussion to have with people a swell to breathe. The organization to be named as the successor to the fund

[00:57:43.01] spk_6:
Okay. Very good. Just wait. Same way donors can name your organization to there as a beneficiary of their life insurance policy or pension IRA. Any any. Any financial asset with, ah, people on death or a transfer on death closets called. But you don’t have to know that. Just you have to know this is a death beneficiary possible and that can apply to your donors. Donor advised funds as well.

[00:58:08.29] spk_3:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.

[00:58:13.62] spk_6:
All right. Very simple. Cool. Um, anything else I don’t want to cut. You don’t cut you off? No,

[00:58:16.80] spk_3:
I I’m looking at my last Avenger. I’m looking at my notes, and I think that I think we covered all the bases that I want to touch upon And, you know, just making sure that people understand that even though they can be vexing, there are some things that you can do to research them and to build relationships and definitely thanking and stewarding those that are already donating to you through a through a donor advice fund.

[00:59:53.37] spk_6:
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Don’t don’t be put off by these things And there’s enormous amounts of money in them. Is enormous amounts of money coming from them to charities. Um, everything you said? I agree. Just like yeah, they’re not going to Calgary. Oh, yeah, you can’t be. You can’t be put off by the vexations. You may not find out whoever who every gift came from, but you can make efforts best efforts and you’ll find out a good number of them. And you will be able to thank your donors. I remember, you know, and some don’t just want to be anonymous. No, they just don’t want to be. No. So that’s your donor’s choice. It’s not the administrator deliberately frustrating your purpose. Your donors. Some of the donors may just want to be anonymous, and that’s their prerogative. So except that move on to the donors that you can find and thanking and well, solicit for the future. So definitely look into donor advised funds. Don’t be put off by them. There’s enormous wealth in them. There’s enormous wealth coming from them. Okay, Thank you. Very simple. Alright, Maria Sample. She’s the Prospect Finder. The prospect finder dot com our prospect research contributor our doi end of their cheap and free. Uh, you’ll find her at the Prospect Finder. Thanks very much. Foria. Thanks.

[01:00:09.12] spk_3:
Have any good to see you

[01:00:48.58] spk_1:
next week? 20 NTC panels. Most likely if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our

[01:01:28.50] spk_0:
creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff. I did the postproduction Sam Liebowitz managed The Stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. In this music is by Scots. He was the next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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My Guest:

Lisa Brauner: Reopening From Coronavirus
My guest is attorney Lisa Brauner. We see the faint light at the end of the tunnel. We’re slowly emerging as we knew we would. But these things must be done delicately. What do you plan ahead for? How do you keep employees safe and can they refuse to return to work? What are reasonable accommodations? Lisa has answers. Lisa has advice. Lisa is a partner at Perlman+Perlman law firm in New York City.

 

 

 

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Transcript for 487b_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200506.mp3

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[00:00:12.34] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:42.84] spk_2:
radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a short special episode of non profit radio to help you cope with the pandemic reopening from Corona virus. My guest is attorney Lisa Brunner. We see the faint light at the end of the tunnel were slowly emerging as we knew that we would. But these things must be done.

[00:00:44.94] spk_3:
Delicate, please.

[00:01:39.04] spk_2:
So, what do we, uh, what we planned for? That’s coming. How do you keep employees safe? And can they refuse to return to work? What are reasonable accommodations? Lisa has answers. Lisa has advice. Lisa is a partner at a prominent Perlman law firm in New York City, responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications um, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Thank you very much. Welcome back, Lisa.

[00:01:41.54] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:43.54] spk_2:
Alright. Thank you for doing another special episode with us. These are these are these are valuable for listeners. Thank you. You’re welcome. Everything okay? Looks ah. Looks bright and sunny in New York is it

[00:02:00.64] spk_0:
is right. Well, it was raining earlier, but looks like the being the son, maybe. Okay. Make its way through. Looks

[00:02:36.98] spk_2:
looks bright. We’ll call it bright and sunny. Okay. Even so, shining light on your beautiful artwork on your walls. Thank you. So you’ve been thinking a lot about what is ahead as states begin to ah, open up the reduced the restrictions on on work at home, our restrictions on work in the office requirements to work at home. It’s happening slowly. There’s, like, I don’t know, maybe half a dozen states or so, so far that if reduce the the restrictions on just on certain industries, So I don’t I don’t know if maybe, you know, Are there states yet that have office workers allowed back to go back that had restrictions before just on office work?

[00:02:49.54] spk_0:
Well, I mean, we hear about in certain states like Georgia that they’ve already started to reopen certain industries.

[00:03:04.44] spk_2:
Right? That’s just restaurants and dollars to point essential. You gotta have those but our people back in offices in Georgia.

[00:03:08.74] spk_0:
I don’t know that people are back in the offices.

[00:03:12.65] spk_2:
Yeah, so but it’s coming. It’s good

[00:03:14.38] spk_0:
calming you write.

[00:03:15.53] spk_2:
That was like

[00:04:23.24] spk_0:
the end of the tunnel on dhe estates air trying to use depending on the states in the measured approach or prioritising which businesses come back first. New York is already talking about the plan for which are the most essential businesses or industries with the least amount of risk, where they can start reopening construction and different and different things. So it’s it’s a kind of a faced approach. It sounds like it’s happening. In New York, for instance, the governor put in a 12 point plan of different things that he expects them would like to see happen. Ah, in order for the reopening to occur and specifically with respect to workplaces, at least in New York, and it may be may be different in different states. There’s an expectation in York that, uh, is part of this plan that employers are going to put into place implement the safety protocol for their

[00:04:37.24] spk_2:
I thought, This is This is one of things we need toe be planning ahead. So, you know, at this stage, we’re planning for returning. Um, you know, but there. I mean, there’s basics. Like, what’s the schedule gonna be? Who’s gonna come? Um, you know, walk us through some of that pre planning. But before we get to the

[00:07:41.34] spk_0:
sure exactly at this point, tony, employers should be pre planning for that day. Ah, and not not necessarily waiting to see what happens. They should be putting a plan in place, which involves things like who? Who is going to continue to work remotely? Who is gonna be actually in the office? How are we going to How are we gonna make that happen? And how we gonna ensure that employees are safe coming back? What could be looking at their finances? What is it that we can afford to do in terms of who we bring back our their employees? That we will not be able to continue employing that we may need to furlough. Who do we need on the ground? Are we going to need to cross train certain employees? So if there’s certain things that need to get done and the employees we need to do them. Can’t do everything. Mm. From home. Do we have other employees that are able to come in who can actually perform some of those functions? What do we need to do physically in our workplace to ensure that the workplace is is safe, for instance, Um, are we gonna have what we have? Sufficient? Will we have masks? Will we have gloves? Do we need to dio, Do we need to sanitize the workplace? In other words, that we’ve wiped down everything all the surfaces, computer keyboards and door knobs. What have we done to ensure to communicate to our employees that the works, the works space that you’re coming back to is actually is actually safe. So having a plan to communicate to employees about what’s been done in terms of safety precautions, considering what type of personal protective equipment or face coverings and things like that, the employer is gonna have figuring out whether they need to do some type of reconfiguration of the actual work space. So, for instance, it in workplaces where they might have more of an open plan where everybody’s together. Ah, what do we need to dio Teoh either reconfigure this space to make it safe so that we can still allow for social distancing. Do we need to put up plastic or plexi glass? But between the areas where employees are working, do we need to set up one way a one way hallway that, you know, this whole way? Everybody goes in this direction and the other hallway, Everybody comes in the opposite direction. In other words, that employers should be coming up with their post pandemic plan for how they’re going to logistically bring employees be back and who’s gonna come back. And also how how are we gonna bring employees back safely?

[00:08:12.17] spk_2:
Okay, that’s a ton of stuff to be thinking about. But you know, all good. So listeners will go back and start taking notes on, like, the 20 things that you just ticked off as a ZX items to be used to be thinking about, um, everybody talks about the PP do. Do employers have AH responsibility requirement or t provide? I don’t gloves and masks. Or is that is that governed by state law? Or just buy your own moral obligation that you feel what what what what guides them in making a decision like that?

[00:10:12.94] spk_0:
Mm. I mean, I think it’s I think it’s adhering to whatever the precautions are of the CDC and Osho, the Centers for Disease Control and on OSHA, Occupational Safety Ah, and Health Administration. In looking to those to that guidance and also any state and local guidance as to whether their directives right now, perhaps with the exception of the essential workers, it’s really being left to the employers to for the most part, unless there’s a state or local directive to do it, it’s being left to employers to make those decisions. But certainly if the CDC is advising that individuals wear face coverings in instances where they can’t social distance, it would be it would behoove an employer to say, You know, we follow the directives of the seedy city. Ah, in protecting our employees is an under under OSHA. Under the Occupational Safety and Health Act, employers have to maintain a workplace that’s free of any hazards. Essentially, they have a duty to to do that, too. Keep the employees safe, you know, pre from hazard. So in the workplace. So so that would extend Teoh. I mean, recommendation would be that employers do provide face coverings to their employees. And and also they may even consider having face coverings available to anyone who’s visiting the workplace. If they have something cups, someone coming on site, who’s gonna be cleaning the work area clients? Anyone who’s going to be coming into the workplace because those individuals could be, if they’re asymptomatic could be infecting one of the employees. So

[00:10:18.74] spk_2:
that would

[00:10:19.09] spk_0:
be, well, advice to do that.

[00:10:49.09] spk_2:
That brings up another issue about people coming to your office, those you’re serving or maybe just like you said. Maybe they’re just the office cleaners or just people routinely come in. You know the mail gets delivered. Ups comes, you know, et cetera. How do you treat people? Coming to your office is not just what do you expect of them? It’s not just what do you expect of employees and what you gonna do for employees but visitors to the office or your other facilities as well? You know, non profits may very well not even now have a second facility. It’s not in office, but it’s where it’s where they serve meals or serve clients in some other way. Those people have to be accommodated.

[00:11:45.08] spk_0:
Yes. So I mean, all those things there such excellent points and which really go to the point of pre planning now Because Because employers can’t they can’t just show up on the first day of work and say, Okay, now we’re you know, now we’re back to work. Ah, we’re going to do the best we can. They really have to plan out in advance. You know what is social distancing gonna look like And our work space. And it’s gonna be different for every non profit. Like in some instances, it could be, you know, setting something up like we see when we go into when we go into a pharmacy or when we go into a supermarket where they’ve actually designated, you know, spots for people who are waiting on line to understand their six feet between you

[00:11:51.05] spk_2:
because it was sitting on the floor.

[00:12:36.34] spk_0:
Exactly. So depending on the non profit, so I’m not gonna be appropriate in every setting, but depending on the non profit and what, who their servicing and what the layout of their workspaces, it’s gonna dictate what it is they need to dio from a social distancing perspective to keep six feet between people, but they have to. Employers should be thinking now, what is it based on who were serving on what we’re doing? And what are configuration is what kinds of changes do we need to make right now to ensure that our employees feel safe, that that the people that we serve that are coming to our work site also feel safe. Uh, you know that that they’re not going to get infected. So eso the pre planning is is, I think, crucial right now.

[00:12:44.75] spk_2:
Otherwise, you just compounding the crisis. If you’re leaving this until the last minute are you know, the week before or something. You know, it’s not gonna be enough time to look at all the guidance because so you said, CDC, OSHA, and you also have to look to the your state whatever state guidance there may be. And even potentially, your city could have guidelines around requirements for businesses.

[00:14:00.84] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely on social distancing. But here’s some other things that I wanted to mention that employers could think about. Two. Is there as they’re planning? Um, I mean, the goal is to to continue the social distancing for now until we know that the threat is over, and so they could consider things like staggering of start times that employees start work staggering in the end times, particularly where people are in larger urban areas. And they may be Trent, you know, traveling by bus or subway where they’re gonna be congregated with a lot of people. And so to reduce that from happening. If employers consider maybe staggering the time that an employee comes to work to avoid Rush Hour or to stagger the time that the employee is going home from work to avoid rush hour, that could be a possibility or changing the day. So we’re

[00:14:16.45] spk_2:
thinking maybe I could get a work day that’s like 10 to 2. Can I squeeze Shoot 10 and leave around two, or maybe to 30 with, and I’ll reduce my lunch to an hour and 15 minutes from an hour and 1/2 That that that is not considered a reasonable accommodation?

[00:14:27.64] spk_0:
Well, a reasonable combination isn’t another context.

[00:14:43.54] spk_2:
I know. Yeah, no, I’m being unreasonable a za potential. But I could never be an employee because that, you know, there are a lot of reasons I couldn’t work for um, so, yeah, I mean, even staggering weeks, maybe. Maybe right 11 team works off site for a week and then comes into the office and the other team, and they rotate it, rotate around that way

[00:15:18.91] spk_0:
absolutely. Or having someone working on a weekend day as opposed to a weekday as a substitute, as a way to to stagger, first of all, so that you are helping the employees reduce the risk if they’re gonna be traveling by mass transit or in a large group. Secondly, er, to reduce the number of people just in the office together at one time. So

[00:15:34.93] spk_2:
there’s a potential, you know, in being flexible like this, there’s a potential to actually, you know, toe help families who, you know, maybe it’s ah, it’s a couple. And it helps them that one of them works on a Saturday or that one of them has, you know, unusual hours tend to six or something. Maybe that helps the family. And so you can build f have that flexibility and also be good to your employees at the same time.

[00:16:17.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say one of the kind of key takeaways from all of this is employers should be flexible in the solutions that they are coming up within this time. That’s so unprecedented, but should should just be flexible on the possibilities of what exactly they can provide and what they can offer in terms of bringing the workers back to work and doing it in a way, that’s that’s Ah, that’s safe. Um, so yeah, well,

[00:16:20.11] spk_2:
I was gonna turn Teoh reasonable accommodations, which I perverted a couple of minutes ago. But, um what what do we need to be thinking about that? What does that phrase mean? And how does it apply here?

[00:22:28.34] spk_0:
So reasonable accommodations. So under the law, employers have a reasonable have a duty to reasonably accommodate employees for because they have a disability for religious practices. Ah, in New York for pregnancy, childbirth and related medical conditions. And so the types of things that one needs to reasonably accommodate an employee for may depend import on your jurisdiction and what that jurisdiction recognizes as being entitled to a reasonable accommodation. But for employers who have 15 or more employees, they are covered under a federal law called the Americans with Disabilities Act. And they have a legal obligation to reasonably accommodate employees who have a disability so that that an employee can perform the essential functions of their job. Unless doing that, we would pose an undue hardship on the organization. So how that looks here in in this cove, it situation is if you have somebody who has a disability, they may set a. My doctor says that I need to continue working from home. Ah, nde working from home, maybe a reasonable accommodation. And for that person, it’s also going to be more difficult for employers to say that doing so would pose an undue hardship in view of the fact that so many people have been working from home because of the situation. So somebody has disability, uh, in New York, for instance, if there pregnant or because of childbirth related medical conditions, they may need to. It may be that they that they need to work from continuing work from home is a reasonable accommodation that could be an example working from home or leave of absence or things like that. So where it gets where it now gets trickier, here is the situation where somebody has an underlying condition. Well, let me first say that the E O. C. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which is the federal agency that enforces the A d. A. Has has not said that Cove in 19 is a disability, said it may be good state and city and a human rights laws like New York City. Human rights laws have said that, yes, this this, uh, is a disability and those laws, this is one of most important things is that even if there’s not a requirement into the federal law, state and city laws maybe much more liberal and protective of employees, then what What the a d a provides. So even if a certain reasonable accommodation may not be required under federal law, it may be required under state and sitting law. And so that brings me to the next point about the sister of reasonable accommodations. And that is one of the wrinkles here. Interesting aspects is that we know that people with certain underlying conditions are more susceptible to contracting the virus, right? So individuals who have diabetes, uh, who have, uh, who have respiratory ailments who have auto immune honestly, maybe may be more vulnerable, uh, or susceptible and so So the question comes up. What about somebody who has an underlying health condition? Um, you know, can they, uh, can they refused to come to work, right? I mean, that’s one of the questions, and it’s an open question. I think employers, they’re gonna have to they’re gonna have to consult with legal counsel about what the state and local laws are with respect to that. Um, but the person has an underlying condition like, for instance, in New York City, New York City just issued guidance. Ah, New York City’s Commission on Human Rights just and that’s the agency that enforces the New York City Human rights Law. They just issued guidance around this issue of underlying conditions that employers may need to reasonably accommodate ah, individuals who have an underlying condition in New York City. And it could be in other jurisdictions to having an association with somebody who has a disability is illegal protection. So let’s say an employee has a family member who has a disability that employer can’t discriminate against, or treat that employees less favourably simply because that person has an association with a person with a disability. So depending on the state and city jurisdictions. There could be greater protections for individuals, depending on whether someone there associated with has a disability, whether the employees themselves has an underlying condition. When that employee says to the employer, I want to continue working from home or I need to take time off or something or something to that effect. So it’s kind of it. It’s another aspect of this that employers need to be thinking about. Not just what is the federal Lost A but one of the state and local law say about how I need to accommodate this person and whether they can refused to come to work because of ah, of the of the fear of, uh, of contracting the virus and they might be entitled to. I’m sorry, Go ahead.

[00:22:48.84] spk_2:
What about if it’s just a fear? But there isn’t un underlying, um, underlying diagnosis that makes them more vulnerable either themselves or someone there associated with suppose. It’s just a generalized fear of traveling and returning to work without any underlying medical issue.

[00:25:14.47] spk_0:
Generally, they wouldn’t be able to refuse unless there is Yeah, generally, I mean, once the stay at home order has lifted. Ah, and e No employers are clear to reopen their workspaces. Someone’s general fear isn’t gonna be illegal. Generally gonna be illegal. Ah, excuse provided legal excuse from them not to return to work. I mean, if they if they’re entitled to paid sick leave or paid extended family leave for one of the reasons under the families first grown of his response act, That’s one thing. Generalized Fear, uh, is not going to give them a legal claim for refusing to come back to work. That said, uh, to the extent that employers can reassure their employees as to number one, the efforts of the employers taken in the workplace, them safe. I’ve heard situations of employers who they hire a private van or bust or something where they’re going to bring employees into work to avoid having to deal with mass transit. So employers can be creative and ways in which they can support their employees on reassure the employees about the safety of both being at the workplace and coming to the workplace and being flexible and accommodating, even when there may not be a legal obligation to do so. But for reasons of employee morale and motivating employees finding creative and flexible ways to support employees coming back to the workplace. You know, alternative ways for them to get to work. Ah, and reassuring them that we’re providing face coverings and and gloves so that you feel safe when you’re here. We have protocols for people who are visiting the workplace so that we know you know, that they’re taking precautions when they’re gonna be interacting with you as an employee. Those things go a long way for employees to feel reassured that they that they’re gonna be that their safety concerns are being addressed.

[00:26:18.91] spk_2:
A lot of a lot of what you’re suggesting today is consistent with what you said in the very first. You and I did the very first special episode together, which was probably five weeks or so ago when when we were on the other. We’re talking about other things, just planning for working at home, and a lot of your advice there was be flexible. Um, be thinking ahead. What’s it gonna look like when you, when your workforce is distributed back to home, are after their homes communicate? That was a central message then, and it still is, and this is exactly what you’re saying. Now, you know, communicate with your employees about what you’ve done about what you’re going to do, um, to help them just be reassured. So I mean, the details are different because we’re going from home to back to the office is But your overall messages about be flexible, communicate, um, have some empathy. You know, those air plan ahead. Those are the same things you were saying five weeks ago about the opposite situation.

[00:28:13.44] spk_0:
We are on the other side. It’s true. But those those values and those tools I think are the same because those are the things that give employees reassurance that everything gonna be okay on dhe on dhe. People may have fear about coming back to the office coming into the office again. So to the extent those things can be done, you know they should be done on employers, you know, because we’re in the pandemic. They have also some more flexibility in terms of certain things that otherwise might not be able to do under the Americans with Disabilities Act like taking employees temperatures, although not everybody who has Cove in 19 has a fever, but employers can do that? They can scream. Okay. They can. They can. They can ask employees whether they have the, you know, particular symptoms that have been identified specifically with covert 19. Uh, they can insist that employees self report to them. If those employees start exhibiting any of those symptoms to let them know, uh, employers could do that. Now, of course, they have to keep any any medical information, which includes the results of temperatures and things like that. If they were to do that, they have a legal obligation to keep that information confidential. So whether they decide they’re gonna take the temperatures and record those temperatures or they decide, we’re only gonna look to see if somebody is above a certain threshold. And we’re only going to indicate on a form that they were either below or above the threshold. They can make those determinations themselves about how they they want to administer it. But whatever the results are, they must keep that information confidential. Um,

[00:28:29.31] spk_2:
yeah, I want todo Did you have more than you wanted to say on that? Uh, I thought that what employers? How much further? Employers can go now with questions. And then you know, you still got to or cause I was gonna ask, I was gonna start asking something else, but

[00:28:34.19] spk_0:
I’m sure I know. Go ahead. OK,

[00:28:35.88] spk_2:
OK. The, um

[00:28:37.74] spk_0:
what do you do

[00:28:51.64] spk_2:
in the case where someone is, um, is happier on unemployment because, you know, there’s, ah, there’s that federal bump of $600 a week. Um, plus, whatever the state is paying unemployment benefits, Um, what if you have You just have a recalcitrant employees who is happier receiving the unemployment than then they would be going back to

[00:29:35.05] spk_0:
work. So that’s an excellent question and something that we actually see. And I think first of all, the bump ends on July 31st. That’s the first thing the $600 additional, Uh, so that’s the first thing that the second thing is typically to be eligible for unemployment insurance. The person has to be ready, willing and able toe work. And if they’re being offered a job back, they may be in a situation where they end up being disqualified from unemployment insurance.

[00:29:40.28] spk_2:
You have to certify right that you, I guess, includes that you turned down employment. If you did right, I don’t have to certify. I mean, I know in North Carolina, you have to certify each week it’s probably routine, uh, about white Look for a job, you know, things like that. So it just if you turned down your existing employers offer of returning to work, Um, that’s that would disqualify you for unemployment.

[00:30:15.76] spk_0:
They may. They may be depending on the state deemed ineligible to continue receiving unemployment. If they were then offered hope so. Yes. Oh,

[00:30:19.64] spk_2:
I’m happy here.

[00:30:21.24] spk_0:
It is this way until

[00:30:35.64] spk_2:
July 31st. I’m very content right here. Right. OK, so there’s a mechanism for dealing with that on the on the unemployment insurance state level. Yeah, hopefully. OK, alright. We could dismiss that hypothetic. But you said you ve seen that, or you’ve heard it already.

[00:30:41.64] spk_0:
They were because they’re making more money at this point. So it

[00:30:45.27] spk_2:
was a purely hypothetical. You’ve heard

[00:30:47.20] spk_0:
I exactly. Yeah.

[00:31:24.46] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Well, not all employees air lazy and not all employers or scruple. Unscrupulous. So, you know, make that z ensure we, uh, fair to both sides. Um, And on this, by the same token, there’s enough blame to go around for everybody. Um So what do we have? Toe? You know, you’ve talked about so many different things. Do we have to have written policies about You know what the expectations are gonna be when you return? We’re gonna be standing for fever. Will be issuing PPS. Um, here’s our policy for visitors to the office. Now you need to comply with this. If you see a visitor, you welcome a visitor. Do there’s always need to be in writing.

[00:34:17.69] spk_0:
Um, not everything needs to be in writing, but certain things should be in writing so that everybody is on the same page. I think I think employers can communicate just again. It depends on the size of the employer as well. In terms of whether something will be in writing or not. I think that you know more long term, longer term policies, uh, and protocols. I mean, you could have you number one. If you do have people continuing to work remotely, definitely want to have a policy on that. You want to have an agreement with that employee so everybody understands what is being expected. What? The terms are what you’re expecting with respect to employees to record their time for those that air covered by the overtime pay laws. You want to make sure that everybody understands about the importance of confidentiality and protecting the data security and and all that for employees in accounting to work remotely for paid sick leave on pay, extended paid family leave under the families First Law. You certainly want to have policies addressing those and the interplay with your other paid time off policies for absolutely for protocols on visitors to the workplace and things like that. Uh, depending on the size of the organization, you you will. You would want to have a policy addressing that particularly things are now changed in terms of how you’re gonna be interacting with visitors to the workplace, does it all the things that you would want to to have, uh, you would want to have policies on for sure. Andi would also want to train your managers and your employees about what these new policies are. So have a chance to address questions, but particularly the managers who were gonna be enforcing these policies. I mean, it’s ultimately in many cases, gonna be a to the managers who will be enforcing the social distancing who will be addressing, you know, safety concerns. Who will be, um, who will also be may be involved in decisions about who’s coming back into the workplace and who’s not. And you want to be careful about that as well that there isn’t, uh, discrimination happening either. You know, people are paying, being desperately treated or you have some type of neutral policy that’s disproportionately impacting older people. Pregnant women, etcetera. And also there’s been a noted increase in in bias against Asians, Um, during this pandemic, um, both in the workplace and outside the workplace.

[00:34:23.65] spk_2:
We talked about that five weeks ago.

[00:34:25.16] spk_0:
We did so

[00:34:26.40] spk_2:
the possibility of that. Yeah,

[00:34:55.34] spk_0:
exactly. So it’s It’s really important that employers are reminding all their employees about their policies, prohibiting discrimination and doing any supplemental training that they feel is necessary to ensure that there aren’t derogatory comments. Remarks directed at Asians Has everyone returns to the workplace. So increased training. I would say a lot of

[00:35:02.56] spk_2:
love can be done in advance. You can be absolutely obviously developing the policies, but also training about the policy discussing them before the first day back.

[00:35:08.51] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, could be doing that now.

[00:35:13.69] spk_2:
So planning, developing and communicating than training that stuff could all be done in advance. Virtually

[00:36:00.88] spk_0:
yes, yeah, all that could be done. So and also just you know what the employers planning to do exactly. From a safety perspective, you know that they’re adhering to the CDC protocols and directives and what OSHA is recommending and just reassuring their employees about what they’re doing to keep them safe on dhe and also what the mechanism is for employees to bring forth any issues. Like if an employee in a particular work site feels that their manager hasn’t been, Ah hasn’t been acting consistently with what the organization says it’s being done or that there isn’t social distancing happening or the people they feel. The people aren’t taking precautions to keep them safe. Employers want to make sure that they hear from those employees so that it can be addressed, so they want to make sure they communicate whatever the mechanism is for employees to to bring those issues forward.

[00:36:38.37] spk_2:
Okay, Lisa, I think that’s pretty comprehensive. That’s enormously comprehensive. Um, I mean, I was like my takeaways are planned. Be flexible, communicate train, You know, on all these dozens of different things that we talked about. What? That’s that’s what I That’s what I’m thinking. Like in the end. What do you want to leave people

[00:37:51.63] spk_0:
with? I think those air I think those air perfect takeaways. Actually, all of those things be flexible in solution plan. Now for what reopening is gonna look like whose whose ableto continue to work from home. Who on Who needs to come back to the office? Are we being Are we making these decisions for lit? Legitimate, non just discriminatory business reasons. Is it gonna have a disparate impact on a particular group? Older people pregnant, you know, take a look at your decisions and what the impact potentially could be, uh, or will bay in making your decisions plan and, uh, and and the and be flexible in your in your solutions on a train train your employees train your managers to make sure that they’re following the protocols that you’ve put in place and that they have awaited to raise any grievances or complaints or concerns eso that those get can get addressed.

[00:37:57.33] spk_2:
Okay, Incredibly comprehensive. Thank you very much. Lisa,

[00:38:01.00] spk_0:
you’re very welcome. My pleasure, tony.

[00:38:31.86] spk_2:
Thanks for doing it responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, P. R and Media for non profits, Your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot CEO. Creative producer

[00:38:47.11] spk_1:
is My Half Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy. His music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Many thanks to Susan and Mark for helping get this special episode out very quickly with me next time for non radio, big,

[00:38:49.86] spk_2:
non profit ideas for the other 90

[00:38:53.74] spk_1:
5% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 8, 2020: Data Privacy Practices

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My Guest:

Jon Dartley: Data Privacy Practices

Let’s have a romp through the fields of data privacy and cybersecurity, musing as we frolic on just how important the right practices and policies are to your nonprofit. My guest is Jon Dartley, Of Counsel at Perlman+Perlman law firm.

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.00] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:19.07] spk_2:
big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. This is our second non studio show produced using a dizzy audacity and zoom Oh, I’m glad you’re with me ID break out in Wall Dyer’s ring If I had to say the words you missed today’s show data privacy practices Let’s have a romp through the fields of data privacy and cybersecurity, musing as we frolic on just how important the right practices and policies are to your non profit. My guest is John Darkly of counsel at prominent Pullman law firm tony. Take two. Take another breath were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? And by turning to communications, PR and content for non profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a pleasure to welcome John Darkly to the show he founded and operated involve the Web application, development and design firm that pioneered online peer to peer fundraising list building and advocacy campaigns for non profits involved was acquired by Can. Terra. John probably made a lot of money there when Cantero was acquired by Blackboard John probably make money again, but he was also named senior deputy general counsel and information governance chair. Besides all that, he has more than 15 years experience representing nonprofit organizations. He’s of counsel at Perlman and Perlman law firm in New York City. The firm’s at Perlman and perlman dot com. And at tax exempt lawyer John Darley. Welcome the non profit radio.

[00:02:21.64] spk_5:
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:23.19] spk_2:
Good to have you. That was, uh, that sounds like it was quite a run with involved in terra and black bod.

[00:02:29.54] spk_5:
It was definitely an interesting path. I like this day. It gave me a lot of kind of real world experience. Great to work on. Both sides. Both work on the software side now, back on representing clients. Yeah. Yes, it was interesting.

[00:02:43.11] spk_2:
How many years was that from? Like from the time from founding involved to being appointed senior deputy general counsel at Blackboard,

[00:02:52.74] spk_5:
right? About seven or eight years. And when I start with the ball off again, we working with some very large, not pop. It’s doing Web applications. This was like the first kind of friends asking, friends type approach on. Then we just kind of built out organically, like working with a non topic clients and eventually bought and bought again, as everyone knows a lot. Elation.

[00:03:26.39] spk_2:
Yeah, good, Wonderful. It’s a good trip. So it isn’t practicing law now. Boring. Without all that, you don’t have a let’s start up excitement and challenge and all those obstacles and frustrations.

[00:03:27.92] spk_5:
The grass is always greener. So, you know, when I was at that sign, it seemed like just being a lawyer would be very comforting. Now you’re like sometimes you miss the excitement. But I hope my clients and we have some smaller clients that are building, you know, interesting brands that you’re saying. All of this s o. I feel like I’m so not sure. I’m just advising my clients

[00:03:46.69] spk_2:
without without All the agita is the once removed once room from, uh, from rounds of rams of financing, et cetera,

[00:03:56.25] spk_5:
where you are like wearing having to pay painful, easy,

[00:04:32.40] spk_2:
right, Get back and I make right. Can I make the Yeah? Can I make salaries this week. Right? Right. So, um all right. Data data, privacy, cyber security. I think people probably understand, in our current environment, I’m not having to do with Corona virus, but just living in 2020. I think a lot of people are conscious of at least cybersecurity issues. Maybe not so much data data, privacy. But But let’s make sure, you know, give us some, uh, motivation for why data, privacy and cybersecurity should be paint paid attention to

[00:05:16.39] spk_5:
Yeah, I’m often accused of scaring people, and I think that’s a good thing, you know, frankly, I work with four profit stonework with non puppets now primarily. And from, you know, I was a non profit yourself 5 to 6 years behind the for profit world and taking privacy of cyber security. Seriously. Just, you know, in the for profit world is now a C suite. You know, job is open, it’s cheap. Obviously, Officer, there’s teams of people working on things, not hop it, and they are starting to learn the importance of taking the practices and putting these policies in place. But a lot of times is an infrastructure is do. The manpower is too but just to kind of take a context every year, the amount of breaches grow. Last year, $2 in 19 the amount of damages increase by about 17%. And just in the context of what that costs, the average reach across an organization almost $4 million now, given there are some very large reaches, so that kind of skews the results. But in terms of a per record, So think about donors. How many donors you have, Basically an average of $150 for every record loss is what you’re gonna pay in regulatory fees and other finds. Another kind of charges. So that’s, you know, a real real thing.

[00:05:44.28] spk_2:
Now, what about the comparison between, you know, corporate and non profit breaches mean? Well, I’m thinking off the top of my head of, ah, Marriott. Uh, you know, I don’t 100 million records or whatever. West maybe was only 10 million. I don’t remember, but many millions of records um, there have been other big corporate breaches, but have there been breaches? Maybe they’re just not as, uh as publicized on the non profit side.

[00:06:21.42] spk_5:
You’re actually exactly right. Uh, small and mid sized nonprofits are actually being increasingly target if they don’t have to sophisticated protocols in place to kind of to protect against some of these of these hacks. We don’t hear about the malls and not the big build. Another Facebooks of the world on an ID only they’ve been. Actually, some studies done is not evident. It totally they’ve been some studies done that, not pump it actually hurt more than four profits for data breach. I’ll give you an example. You know, Facebook gets breached. How many people actually got off Facebook and stop using it, right? Not pop it in a way, are more fungible. Some donors with donate more to more than one organization, studies have shown. If there’s a data breach at a non profit, donors are less likely to come back next year. Donate. I’ll just choose another organization. So in some ways, the bar and the risks are even higher for nonprofits,

[00:07:03.52] spk_2:
right? All right, right. I’m I’m more committed. I’m pretty committed to my Marriott Marriott Bon voy points. No, I don’t. I’m gonna keep using the brand because I’ve got a couple 100,000 points with them.

[00:07:29.30] spk_5:
Exactly. The reputational harm I have to say, tony, ITT’s organizations don’t think about that. But these days, I think we all were all more sensitive to write. Our data’s being treated. Yeah, they’re a lot more regulations out there which out there they will talk about. But the reputational harm can last for years, especially when organization is seen as either not doing the right things, not taking kind of, you know, appropriate precautions that could really be devastating.

[00:07:40.49] spk_2:
All right, since you mentioned regulations, um, uh, you know, we heard a lot about GDP. Are when? When that was knew. What was that, like, two years ago or so that

[00:07:50.44] spk_5:
that May of 2018 will into effect.

[00:07:53.86] spk_2:
Okay, pretty good. Usually I’m bad about the estimating time. All right, so it was two years ago this month. All right, um, so GDP are But you can acquaint us with that. What? I mean for a U. S. Charity? What? What do we need to be conscious of their

[00:08:44.74] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s funny when you came. In fact, it seemed like a few months, like just everyone was talking about it. Remember, a Woody Allen movie would talked about. He said soon will be, the Renaissance will be painting. Thing is like, I think soon it was like That’s all we’re talking about a CPR. It’s like literally a few months s. The only emails I got from clients was like, What is this thing with GDP on what I need to do now? It’s two years later, we’re still talking about it, But there are other regulations ever come into a factory plucked out as well. A general data protection regulation does affect not Klopp, which came into effect in 2018 and has very specific department. So does it affect your not profit? Some of listening? If you have a website, it probably does right. Judy PR affects anybody collecting any information from someone residing in the European Union between the UK, including Switzerland. So B e a, uh, and you know, if your only collecting a few names from from those countries I wouldn’t be is concerned. But if you collect a little bit more than that, then it probably makes sense to comply with GDP. Are

[00:09:39.37] spk_1:
it’s time for a break? Wegner-C.P.As. They have a bunch of covert 19. Resource is on their site. Tax questions related to Cove in 19. We received RP PP funding. Now what? Developing your 13 week cash flow forecast. Internal controls. Covitz style. What about cash? How are you controlling cash in a virtual environment? This is all at wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click resource is

[00:09:45.17] spk_2:
Okay. So, John, it’s only it’s only if you’re collecting data. Not not if you citizens or Swiss citizens are visiting your website merely visiting your website.

[00:09:55.14] spk_5:
But really, it is because what he has done has lowered the bar. What personal information is right? We all care. We were going to use the term sometimes P I I personally identifiable information. And so Jeannie pr is concerned about is if you collect P II. According to Judi pr and I key address. Right. We’ll have computers. We access a website. We have an I P. Address a stash. Consider P I So, technically, anybody accessing your website if you collect their i p address with, most people do automatically. You’re you’re technically subject that GDP are

[00:10:27.29] spk_2:
okay. Wait. All right, So you’re saying most web? Most websites automatically preserve the i p address of a visitor.

[00:10:36.34] spk_5:
Most do through, like, Google analytics or, you know, at least. Yeah, All these the analysts people use automatically get life he addressed with someone visits your website.

[00:10:43.64] spk_2:
Okay. And that then is an entering argument for GDP are to apply to your your website your your non profit

[00:11:34.01] spk_5:
Exactly. Just counsel our clients that you should really only be concerned if you’re collecting and be getting. Don’t you collecting information more than I p addresses to get it? It’s kind of Ah, it’s a risk reward. Be only getting a few I p addresses. You’re not doing anything with it. The odds are of GDP are becoming an issue on the regulators Looking at your not profit. Probably small, but okay, a lot not talk. But in this country that either have offices early, you or have people access routinely. So I’ll give you an example. We worked with a large, well known museum and when people come from your they often want to visit this museum in Manhattan. So they have ticketing and they’re having thousands of people not really least used to when people are travelling but museum tickets. Judy pr squarely applies. They have to comply.

[00:11:48.48] spk_2:
Okay, So beyond the beyond the this sort of perfunctory the i p address else. So if we don’t have ah location that people are buying tickets to come to, what other kind of data would would trigger the GDR for us?

[00:12:30.11] spk_5:
Any name and email address, you know, collecting that anybody resigned. And when I say the word residing, you don’t have to live there. So, technically, tony, if I went Teoh London and then made a donut, patients were not topping the US JD. Power applies to me with that trip is action. I’m now residing in the EU state token of somebody from the U is in the U. S. Exit donation to a non profit. Even though there are you sitting this in a transaction takes place in the U. S. GDP. Ours doesn’t apply. It’s a little bit complicated, but like I said it that today those

[00:12:30.46] spk_2:
those those are the exception. So let’s just deal with

[00:12:33.43] spk_5:
that at

[00:12:33.87] spk_2:
the mainstream. You got a new resident transacting from from the European Union. Um but let’s just assume all that you residents are in the the European Union for this conversation, right? None of them, they’re here. So

[00:14:01.36] spk_5:
So yeah, so replies just kind of get the kid like some of things you want to do. I say, like the low hanging fruit fidgety you are applies. The first thing is website privacy policy. I’m gonna talk about that a little bit more later in terms of a general privacy policy, the importance of it. But Virginia PRD is separate. Basically, GDP are notice that needs just list specific information. Uh, two people from the EU learning them of their rights. And some of the remedies they have, I’ve tell organizations of GDP are applies. The first thing you do is put a put a speeding car notice on your website. That’s something a regulator is the first thing they don’t look at. If you have, that is already one box check. That’s great. Thea. Other hurdle for a lot of non profit we work with is how to get, uh, what when someone wants upped and there’s no more opt out. Everything has to be in Upton and has to be a very specific and home up then, and this is probably the biggest challenge for a lot of non profits. It’s a much higher bar for consent. I’ll give you an example. No longer than you have to have a check. The box and the box says we are signing up to get email campaigns, periodic newsletters and other promotions, even if they check that box. Wegner Judy PR Let’s consider too broad, right? Every request for permission need to be very specific. You need to be clear and affirmative and very moment, one of the biggest challenges for Not

[00:14:10.45] spk_2:
question. So give me an example of of a consent that is properly worded.

[00:14:21.74] spk_5:
I hereby consent to the processing of my personal data for the price Rose Christ or period, not email newsletter, not general marketing purpose for a specific purpose. A price store. You could also say I’m I’m a I hereby consent to the processing of my data for your monthly newsletter. Now let’s say three months later, you have a new newsletter or different what you can no longer send them both newsletters. You don’t have to stand for that. You now have to go back to get the scent. You get one try. They don’t respond. You can’t go back to them again.

[00:14:47.79] spk_2:
Cannot. You can’t go back to them again.

[00:14:49.92] spk_5:
No. Cannot. And there’s no grandfather clause either. So you know a lot of people. At least couple years ago, I had all these names. They were wondering, what do we do? And you got one shot Thio going going to these folks and say, Hey, GDP, our allies way like to use your names. This way, please respond. Have you to get a response That said you can no longer market to these folks.

[00:15:30.84] spk_2:
Okay. All right. So you get one chance per each channel. Sort of. You don’t have to do it for each individual newsletter. I mean, individual mailing of the same newsletter. But But as you said, if you if you start a second newsletter on a different topic related to a different program, you’d have to get permission for that

[00:16:00.79] spk_5:
exactly right. And then the people that you do have kind of on your roster that you’re allowed Teoh work with the U there certain rights they have and these rights have to be passed on to the benders that not puppets work. With these age, everything’s in the cloud off. The odds are they’re using other folks that kind of help processes data. But anybody from the EU has the right of access. They have the right to know what you have about them. They have a right to a racer. They’re gonna ask you to delete their data at any time. You must comply with a certain period of time. They have the right to restrict processing. Yeah, you can use my data eat to give me a newsletter. But I don’t want to be in a cooperative where you’re sharing my name. Uh, they have the right the right to data portability. Give me everything you have and provide. Give it to this new provider on. They have the right to object to anything you’re doing with their data. And when we talk about the Jodi or notice the privacy policy, the privacy policy needs to kind of lift all these rights for EU people. You usually

[00:16:28.40] spk_2:
all right. And that policy needs to be on your website.

[00:16:31.95] spk_5:
Yeah, just like a regular privacy policy. But it needs to be a separate notice. It needs to be on the website prominently displayed.

[00:16:48.14] spk_2:
Okay. When you get consent for the processing of data around a particular purpose, do you need to remind people about their rights? Give them all these reactions, toe portability and the ratio, et cetera, or just one time on the website.

[00:16:55.11] spk_5:
No, No need to be part of your privacy notice. You don’t need to remind them proactively, but it needs to be listed in your GDP are profit privacy notice

[00:17:02.48] spk_2:
Privacy notice on your website.

[00:17:04.34] spk_4:
Yeah, right. Okay.

[00:17:05.86] spk_5:
And the fines are extremely high again for small missiles. Nonprofits to a very low interaction. I’m not concerned. Larger non puppets should be a little bit more aware and look concern. And, you know, one of the things you also need to be aware of. 1/3 party vendors GDP are now makes nonprofits directly responsible and liable for the axe or or emissions of the vendors that holding the state on your behalf. So you now need to give all these vendors specific provisions. Your mandated by GDP are specific. GDP are provisions that buying these benders to basically support your efforts to comply with GDP are so this is another hurdle.

[00:17:52.44] spk_2:
Okay. Um, all right, I would presume the largest vendors are acquainted with this by now, but you

[00:17:53.35] spk_5:
must have their own. Yeah,

[00:17:55.63] spk_2:
but you need to be proactive about ensuring that your vendors all do, whether small or large,

[00:18:00.84] spk_5:
Yeah, a lot profit use. It’s more of the small amount outside vendors, and they may have one in place, and the one they have a place might not be. You know, listen, that everyone takes a different approach. The vendor who supplies they’re all will be much more friendly towards them, so they should still be reviewed and negotiated.

[00:18:16.79] spk_2:
All right, so you’re asking, Are they GDP are compliant when you’re querying your vendors?

[00:18:23.40] spk_5:
Exactly. That May should also bishop. There needs to be the denim toe. Any contract that you have in place just not to get too technical, but the non profit who collects it. Who’s collecting? The data is called a data controller, right. They control the data, their vendors who helped process the data. So maybe a C. R M system, a black box, for example. They would be considered a data processor. Ben should be processing the data on behalf of the non profit who owns the data. So I’ll pop. It is data controller has kind of a much higher bar of requirements to me.

[00:19:03.14] spk_2:
All right. As long as you defined your terms, you keep yourself out of jargon. Jail on. All right. Um uh, Okay, well, there’s a New York law, but, you know, New York Shield, But our listeners are nationwide. So you want to just be much briefer about New York Shield just for our New York listeners?

[00:19:49.27] spk_5:
Yeah. Although New York still, tony, just like today PR, it doesn’t make a difference where you are. You collecting information from New York residents? It applies to you And I would argue is actually, it’s more important because the Jeep car that’s still question how the you will force it against a non profit who does not have offices in the U By how that happens. Nobody has seen yet. But but let’s put that aside, the New York Shelled Act gives the attorney general a public right of action. And certainly in New York, the New York Attorney General has a much further reach to go after not profit, whether they’re in New York or anywhere in the US, because we’re talking about the same country. So I would be as a non profit, more concern about New York Shield at this moment. First import most and then worry about you need your necks.

[00:20:01.72] spk_2:
Oh, all right, do other states. California is a pretty activist state. Do they have something similar that applies to all their residents?

[00:20:33.26] spk_5:
California has one called CCP A, but right now it does not apply to non profits. It only would implicate non profit ever have a four profit wing or Division A? Are there working with a four profit where, for example, be getting data from a company that’s getting from messages in CCP? A. The non papa should be concern at that vendor. Who’s providing you That data has complied with CCP A. But other than that, it doesn’t really apply to non profits.

[00:20:35.61] spk_2:
Okay, any other states.

[00:21:29.34] spk_5:
Massachusetts has had something for a long time, not too dissimilar from New York. But you need me. I think people are kind of and there are other unless there are other ones in the works. Colorado has won about us looking to pass something at some point. That’s in Kobe. 19 is for a lot of things on the back burner, but at some point we could have federal legislation, and you know what I counsel with non clap? It’s even which university BR came out and they said it doesn’t apply to me. I said, Even if it doesn’t, it probably makes sense of trying to comply his first ball. Everything’s moving towards greater accountability. Donors. Employees are getting more sensitive about Heather Data’s being used and starting to follow some of these protocols. Just make makes the non hop. It’s better stewards of the information they collect another day. We want to do like by these donors wanted to do right by our employees. The data were collected. So following somebody particles and they don’t apply is a smart practice because nothing wants unauthorized access to their systems.

[00:21:37.88] spk_2:
Okay, Okay. Um, the Massachusetts law is that limited to credit card information?

[00:22:05.54] spk_5:
No, let me call it. It’s a lot of different kinds of personal information, but has not been. I have not seen it really in forced on. A lot of organizations already have policies in place that kind of meet somebody obligations. And certainly if you’re if you start to meet the New York Field Act, which I think will be will be unless they enforce more vigorously, you’re probably OK on the on the Massachusetts

[00:22:10.22] spk_2:
front and the messages from Okay, so Yeah, that’s that’s true. In a lot of cases, like if you can comply with the New York law, you’re covered in a lot of other states because New York is so stringent. Um,

[00:22:22.40] spk_5:
I always say that you can make it here. You can make it anywhere. That was

[00:22:28.69] spk_2:
okay. Uh, yeah, but hey was intact. Think Sinatra was intending much more favorable. And the privacy compliance. All right, so what about New York Shield? You want toe? Give us an overview of that. What? What we should be concerned about this thing, This is if we’re collecting data from New York residents, that right?

[00:24:00.98] spk_5:
Exactly. Yeah, but I would argue I would take my most nonprofits to do any kind of real online access and gather data or getting donations. You probably have a, you know, at least amount from New York. But you know, many what may have a lot So certainly ones working on the East Coast would probably have a lot of New York residents accessing about side and giving information. So that’s about one of things. It expands. What constitutes a data breach, Uh, basically lowers that bar as well. So in terms of when you have to report a data breach, let’s put that piece of side. But this happened the most important thing for nonprofits to keep in mind. Now where? Why was them that says it may an individual one. Employees are pleased to coordinate data security program. This is key because most organizations don’t have one. This is the old saying. If you don’t know where you’re gullible, roads will take you there, and I’ve always counselled we have my non profit clients. If you don’t have somebody in charge of privacy, odds are nothing’s really happening on that front. So that’s good. This is a great example of even if you’re not collecting information of New York residents, you shouldn’t have a point person. Um, and what that point was it needs to do is he needs to look at, based upon your size and attack the information to collecting uh, that they have played a physical security tech technical security attacks, a compliance programs doing training were supposed to looking at Bender agreements and assessing risk. And now New York requires you to have certain provisions. Reasonable provision in every vendor agreement that makes me binds those vendors for doing the right things, that appropriate things in terms. Protecting the data you collect euros exposes, sensitively destroyed data when you no longer needed. And again, I know for many clients this ridiculous some of my clients and many non prop assistants in daunting. It’s not as hard to comply as they might think. And for some of our clients, I’m acting as that point person. It doesn’t have to be. And employees. It just needs to be somebody. So I’ve come in organizations. I’ve looked at the left look of the vendor agreements. Let’s see how things are being protected. Let’s look, if you’re doing training, just let’s look at the your overall approach to privacy and even and give a kind of annual advice that would get them a long way to comply. Europe show.

[00:25:04.84] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Um, all right. And you know, good point also is you know, you said a few times Ah, it’s worthwhile to comply with these to the extent you can, even if you feel it doesn’t apply to you that the law may not apply, but it’s gets good practices.

[00:25:17.34] spk_5:
Yeah. I mean, listen, reaches typically happen from third party vendors That’s usually the case, because these days most people are using cloud providers or using third party vendors to kind of hold this data. If a breach occurs, a vendor’s Onley obligation is to tell you their client that the breach occurred. Your obligation under law. Is it now? No. Divide all the donors who stayed it might have been compromised. They could be credit monitoring costs. There could be legal costs that could be certain regulatory fines. So it’s it’s so example. New York, she’ll requires you to look at these vendor agreements and have certain terms in there. That’s just a smart thing to do. Third party vendor agreements are woefully one sided in favour of the vendors. They’re the ones drafting it on. And it just makes sense to review negotiate these agreements. We can certainly talk about you like five or six, uh, terms that should be in every vendor agreement you

[00:26:10.88] spk_4:
have. All right,

[00:26:11.21] spk_2:
You’re not gonna get to two. Ah, legalese on this. Are you mean I haven’t practiced? I haven’t practiced law since 1994 so

[00:26:19.35] spk_5:
I’m not

[00:26:20.09] spk_2:
gonna get technical for the non lawyer. The 99% of listeners who are not lawyers, right? Okay.

[00:27:12.94] spk_5:
You know, I can keep it. Very simple, just like. And I actually have a great checklist. I’m happy, you know, share with you, tony. People could reach out to me of things to keep in mind. But again, when you instill Ryan, you know, hopefully 98% of time, everything felt swimming. Well, it’s never an issue, but what they still wrong kind of pull out the contract. And again, these contracts very one sided, I joke because I mentioned before I used to work for a very large software company where I drafted a portion of their their client agreement. And then lately, I’ve had the opportunity to negotiate that agreement on behalf of clients. And I wind up rewriting the entire agreement and adding an extra 10 pages and and general counsel at this one company said, John. But you wrote the agreement, your last changing. But I’m on the other side of the deal. It’s a whole, uh, so it’s not just what’s in the agreement. That count

[00:27:20.67] spk_2:
doesn’t. That doesn’t make you That does not make you a hypocrite. People need to understand your allegiance at that time was different than your allegiance at the second time when you were rewriting the agreement that you were drafted in the first time. You’re not a hypocrite.

[00:27:29.68] spk_5:
No, no, no. We’ve fallen advocacy,

[00:27:31.74] spk_2:
advocacy. That’s what we call it. I have forgot that.

[00:27:34.82] spk_5:
Yeah, I’m advocating, but recognizing. I

[00:27:59.74] spk_2:
mean, you’re advocating. Okay. All right. Wait. So let me before you start taking these things off, just tell listeners eso if they would you want to reach you? If somebody wants to get this this checklist that you have He’s John J O N at Kerman and perlman dot com. And Perlman is p e r l m a n not like the, like, the gem or the stone. Whatever that. Whatever pearls are, it’s not like that. Okay, John, at prominent perlman dot com. Okay, you got 45 whenever five things, six. And

[00:30:18.68] spk_5:
get that quickly. Yeah, The 1st 1 is just the privacy of charity. You know, typically will be one of two sentences. We’ll take commercially reasonable practices, know in this day and age and with New York Shield when GDP are there apartments that they need to get a lot more meat on the bone in regard to how company will protect your information. So one of the elements you want to do is simply insert a lot of language that raises the bar again of what we spend it’s supposed to be doing and that they don’t do that. And there’s a breach. Now you have some kind of remedy, uh, to go back from limitation of liability. Every contact has it typically limits what a non topic can get. If there is any kind of loss or damage, anything goes wrong. So open just six months of these. Can’t you have to always negotiate that? They kind of data breach a date of event that we should be untapped direct at Mage is a but not profit is fully covered. The’s terms old Ausubel. I open get it, But you have to ask for it. You don’t ask for your not getting getting it. Uh, uh, rich notification really important. So if there’s a breach, I always put a section in that gets you both quick notification and get you all the credit monitoring and all the other costs. Regulatory fines cover. I’ve never had a better save. Noted that in the end it may take a few back and forth, you know, negotiations. Always a dance, but having a breach notification and uncovered cause it is essential to be two more transition service is when you want to leave the vendor. It’s very hard to leave fried when you’re working with somebody like relationship kind of know who who see the is added. That might broker but becomes very difficult. But transition service’s basically bond and surrender toe work with you for six months and with your new better of choice to make that transition seamless, very important to have that obligation in there. And finally, I would say, is, You know, during the court, in stage with when you’re working with a vendor, you get a whole types of promises. You’ll get lots of marking material. Here’s how the functionality hero features you got everything spray when you signed the contract, you’ll notice that almost there’s no mention just nowhere to be found. One of the biggest things I find my clients about difficulty with is where someone over promises and under delivers. How do you prove that it was not part of the contract? So all those kind of shining marking materials. All those handouts, all those things that give you. You have to attach that to the agreement reference, is it? So when I get things, don’t work out his plan. Now you can show why there’s a beach and what you can get out of the agreement. Very important.

[00:33:11.64] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need an exemplary support that understands the way you work. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for tony. Take two. Take another breath, doubling down on my advice from last week that you take some peaceful time. Um, whatever it is for you if it’s napping, if it’s walks. Um, I’m not thinking of exercise. Exercise is important, but I’m not thinking of runs right now or home workouts. I’m thinking of peaceful, relaxed, calm time putting your mind at ease. I’m talking like I’m tryingto get bring you down right now. I’m not. I’m just trying to give some ideas. This is not a meditation. That’s not a meditation minute. I did try meditation class. I loved it, Actually did something online with a woman who’s giving free meditation classes. Um, and for an hour, I was I was under hypnosis. Almost at almost. I was, uh, focused on breathing where the breath comes in, where I feel it very valuable. Eso maybe for you. It’s meditation, and I have never done that before. So that was unusual experience for me. But I loved it, and I hope to do some more with her. Whatever it is for you, you know you know what it is. Take it, Do it. Take the time for yourself. There’s a lot being asked of us that is unusual. And even if it’s more routine now than it was 456 weeks ago, it’s still stressful. We’re out of our routines, so be good to yourself. Self care, right self care. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Take two Now back to data privacy practices.

[00:33:22.92] spk_2:
All right, if you were on both sides of this arguing because you said it’s a dance right so suppose you were on both sides. Which side would you? Which side would you give in and which side would win?

[00:34:09.68] spk_5:
You know, it’s funny, because I do represent, we have. We have clients that are often vendors. I think I’m very fair in Middle Road. I think, you know, given eight hours of myself come help with very for both sides. But you, tony, that’s a great example of Give you an answer. The limitation. Liability. I always think there should be reasonable carve outs. It shouldn’t be a car about unlimited liability again. It’s what offended would owe you. Something goes wrong. It shouldn’t be that anything goes wrong no matter what, Even if it’s not their fault, they should pay you. So, for example, a visit data peach. But they did everything they were supposed to do when they were so got hacked. That should not be uncapped. But I wait at my rivers, my clients, I I agree with that. But if they do something wrong and there’s a reach, their full, that’s beyond cat. What side of the Delamontagne? I’m always gonna push for both those.

[00:34:25.18] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Eight hours with myself. I don’t know. I don’t know where I would go. I don’t want Oh, it’s not for public consumption, I’m sure. Um all right, so so is it. Is that what you say?

[00:34:36.09] spk_5:
I was thinking apocalypse. Now, that’s what happens when you have too much time on your

[00:34:44.04] spk_2:
OK. All right. Well, I was only r rated. All right, um, so it sounds like the difference. Maybe I’m getting too legalese now. It sounds like a different dream. Negligence, gross negligence and recklessness or something like that.

[00:35:21.99] spk_5:
Yeah, way. We’ll definitely end illegally. So I won’t go there. But those things are just sink. Since the name that contact get the most important thing for anybody listening is you need to have somebody review these agreements. Just don’t sign them. They’re always negotiable. Hopefully, you want somebody. And here is my biggest right. When I was at a black bond. Other companies that sometimes a lawyer who did not know understand technology, I wouldn’t really know what to ask, wouldn’t know had a mark up the agreement, make sure whoever you work with understands, right? They need to know what you’re getting. What the solution is to hopefully kind of protect your interests. So that would be like, he just have somebody who knows what they’re doing with you negotiating on your behalf.

[00:35:37.56] spk_2:
Okay. Cool. All right. Um, what else could we be looking at in this in this arena that can can protect us.

[00:37:17.21] spk_5:
Yeah. I’m gonna get you less than every non profit. If they don’t have, they should do immediately. That you have to think about updating. Are just checking in One is a plot privacy policy website. Privacy policies. Still a lot of non profit don’t have them if you have them. They’ve all from two drafted years ago. They have been updated. So the number of persons do is looking a privacy policy. Make sure it’s been updated. Last year, I would say it’s the transparency is the most important key. Do when you say it. Say what you do. Uh, in terms of the data you collect, you could almost almost do anything you want with it. If you’re transparent about it, you want to add you want oh, care with advertisers? Sure. You want to do you a cooperative? Fine. You want to even sell it? That’s often be possible. But you need to disclose that when somebody gives you the data, so having enough today, privacy policies really key if something goes wrong and people looking for privacy policy and you didn’t just close some of the ways you were sharing, and that’s where the data was lost to be a very big not only legal ramifications. Bobby CPR head. Andi even if we have a privacy policy and they need to be updated because things change all the time. What you were doing for years to the day, both in the back again in terms of how you’re analyzing in the front end has changed GDP. Ours would be an example in Europe shield. A lot of these things require certain statements in the privacy policy. Is your number one. Get a privacy policy. Make sure it’s updated. Make sure it’s accurate. Number two. You should also, in terms of use, terms of service that basically protects the organization, the views and don’t sweep it, then join your website. Very important, Uh, you know, what does that come from? Our what

[00:37:19.77] spk_2:
does that cover in terms of use in terms of service for website were just what does that cover what kind of

[00:37:24.71] spk_5:
anything anybody might do on the Web site in terms of making donations. When the rules, if you have a block, people post content. Or they can take your content, things that can and can’t do in the protection organization from a lot of different kind of legal planes. Just a kind of a standard document every non profit should

[00:37:40.00] spk_4:
have. Okay, Okay. Is that

[00:37:42.11] spk_2:
public to Is that on the website turned

[00:40:12.61] spk_5:
to use an exit privacy policy. Okay. Okay. Now a lot of charity navigator, uh, recommends that you actually have a separate donor profit privacy policy. Just why I read their privacy policy typically only covers when you collect online, they recommend to get the four stars that you have a separate donor privacy that speaks specifically to the information you collect from donors both offline and online. So some might want Consider whether it makes sense to have a separately for a daughter policy and a separate link for a privacy policy. Just like just why there, uh, we talk about bad nerves being an issue. So way kind of crossed that box. Look, pull out all your vendor agreements, see if you’re covered. It’s not when they come up for dual negotiate, I would say annually, no. Once a few years, you should do a privacy audit That’s more formal process where I typically even organization lots of different questions. All their different practices later the cyber security and privacy. And we see where the gaps are. But, you know, one thing I do is kind of a simple one is kind of member. The five W’s in the h. You’re kind of doing news. Recording the five question the six questions asked. They call the five W’s. What? Remember the what? Why, who, where, when and the how. So what is what data we’re collecting? A lot of organizations don’t understand all the data they’re collecting, so get a handle. What data is your collecting? Why, why? You clicked on the state of more many organizations like more David, I need more data. You have the work more risk. You have rights. Onley collected data you need who has access to the data again. People should only have access to the P I. I personally identifiable information you collect who need to have that access. More people have access. The more things that could go wrong. Where? Where’s a dork? Data store. It’s an offline. Are they locked in? Cabinets are there, you know, with vendors. Have it. Are there volunteers? You have access to it. So where is the data stored? When? When is the day to delete it? We’ll talk about that a couple minutes. But you should only keep dating for Florence. You needed and know lots of non profit clients get data for years and years. Even if somebody, for example, is and donated 10 years. The more data you key, the more risk of presidents a loss. And then how House of Data being protected, like in terms of all that, when the data’s being kept, How is it being protected? Really important question You kind of answer all those questions is initial step. You’ve already gone a lot further than a lot of organizations and and kind of being better stewards. That information you collect, uh,

[00:40:13.35] spk_2:
on the, um made 12th 7 dubbed 17 70 on the May 12th 2017 show, I had a guest on talking about cybersecurity insurance.

[00:40:27.61] spk_5:
Yeah,

[00:40:35.61] spk_2:
so now, so listeners could go back to that 5 12 17 show. You can get a lot more detail there because we spent the whole half hour talking just about insurance. But what? What are some key things you want to say about what cyber insurance could protect you against?

[00:42:00.94] spk_5:
You should definitely have a cybersecurity policy with two things. You should make sure your vendor has a cyber security policy. It should be large enough to protect you if something went wrong. So for these bigger vendors, that should be a minimum five million anywhere from 10 to 20 million. You should be named as what they call an additional assured on the benders policy. So you have a direct right and claim against their policy. Putting that aside you non toughest wanna have their own cyber security policy. Okay, they won’t have a policy that basically match the company’s risk that organizations risk that kind of work. They do. You need to make sure has the specific terms that that cover that organization. I’ll give you a great example. We have one plane, very large non profit. Had a head of non had a cyber security policy. They were paying over $100,000 a year for I read through it my joy is released. Things it didn’t apply to them. It was a sign of security policy for a service provider, not for a organization using service providers. So they had to get a new policy. Has something happened? They would have been covered. So I know people hate these policies along their involved, but somebody should read them before you sign them. Work with a good agent that have your attorney be the policy. But every organization listening should have their own cyber security policy a minimum of one million up to depends on the amount of data collecting, uh, you know, on an annual basis in the kind of transactions were doing.

[00:42:23.60] spk_2:
We all hate insurance, but you know, whether it’s auto or homeowners air, I got flood and wind, and but, you know, it’s peace of mind. So and all the you know, all the headlines we see. I mean, this stuff can apply to you as well. Like like we’re talking about. So, uh, you’re not You’re not. Yeah, you’re not. You’re not free because you’re not profit or you’re not, uh, safe.

[00:43:15.62] spk_5:
Yep. It’s all over. When There That you should have one is a data retention and destruction plan. And, you know, this goes back to some of the questions we’re talking about. A data audit you only want keep Davis, or as long as you need it and you want to make sure get rid of it the right way right away. That really destroys the data. So if you have your organization doesn’t have one. You really want a formal data retention destruction plan? By the way, if I didn’t mention it to your killer app requires you that have that a place. So again, you need to think about it. It’s a good practicing of New York shoulders, and if I every organization should have it. Also, business continuity plan. You know, this has come up a lot with Kobe. 19. You know, organization should have a plan in place when something China’s for profit happens, it would. You know, this pandemic was challenging forgiven organizations who had a plan. And I think now we’re over advising plans to take into account the sites of things. But you should have a planet. You know, one of your critical providers goes down. If there’s a data breach, who do you call? You know. How do you respond? New York Shield activity are required Response in a very short period of time. Tony, Order Gate to kind of mitigating organizational damage is the damage that can occur. You need to do the right things early on. So having that in place to support

[00:43:43.94] spk_2:
is this is this the same is a disaster recovery plan. Is that what

[00:43:47.66] spk_5:
you say? Yeah.

[00:43:48.11] spk_4:
Okay.

[00:44:07.99] spk_1:
Time for our last break. Turn to communications. They’re former journalists. So you get help getting your message through it is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. The turn hyphen two dot ceo we’ve got but loads more time for data Privacy practices.

[00:44:51.06] spk_2:
I had a whole show Are I have to show half an hour on disaster recovery plans. I don’t remember the date, but, um, the guest was dar d a r v vor ca v e v e r k a dar viveca choose from one of the non profit technology conference shows. So if you go toe tony-martignetti dot com when you’re looking for the 5 12 17 show on cyber insurance that when I did. I did get the date on that one. This? Ah, this one don’t have the date. But the guest was Dar v Barca on disaster recovery plans, including including sometimes that alternate locations. Even depending how bad the disaster is. You might need a backup location. Do you have that in place?

[00:44:59.89] spk_5:
Yeah, and usually that’s for the benders. Using someone hosting they should have that in place. But released are non profits. It’s more cola called when something bad happens. You know what the weather sex you take to mitigate into remedy.

[00:45:16.49] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um

[00:45:17.46] spk_5:
and then, tony, one other thing I’ll add is, you know, a lot of people in this goes to people working from home. It’s even more important. But a lot will use their own devices. Your own PC, sometimes accessing work stuff. You want to have what they called the wild, deep policy. Bring your own device to work one of the views. And, Jones, if you’re accessing information from your personal phone from your computer, what are you allowed to do when you What is it you shouldn’t do? A lot of this is just good training.

[00:45:53.59] spk_2:
Yeah, whether right. Whether even allowed to use your own device. But then there has to be a non profit provided advice and all right, what about? So this is you mentioned that? What about other? We have other data privacy concerns. I’m sure we do around, ah, distributed workforce. And, you know, I think they’re gonna be changes to do work life, and there may There may be a lot more remote employees going forward Then we’re accustomed to just two months ago. So what about this? Having a more distributed workforce and around data privacy?

[00:47:38.88] spk_5:
Yeah, exactly. I kind of when I think about over 19 have been speaking about There was a philosopher and physicist, Thomas Kuhn, and he had a term paradigm shift that, you know, once in a while once a couple 100 years is that is a paradigm shift that changed the way we think of the world. You know, Not Newton Newton’s right. What was a paradigm shift? Mechanics. The paradigm shift and you don’t usually know is a paradigm in ship until after it happens. Kind of like a recession. You can’t look back. I certainly think over 19 at least in the short term and made the lumber could be, you know, paradigm shift The way we’re approaching work when we approach our our lives outside of work has changed dramatically. And there’s challenges with that. Sure, only people working from home, uh, heightens the risk associated with with data breach and unauthorized access. I’ve talked to my colleagues that been studies. The amount of research that happened have gone up dramatically. I don’t know about you, tony, but literally every week I get emails from CBS Chase Bank Wal Mart over Me gift card. Tell me to click on a link. It looks like it’s CBs dot com, but look, the sub tomato. It’s nothing like that. Exactly. When people working from home, they’re not. They just can’t be a safe. So there are a lot of things digital kind of a 10 to Now that we have a remote workforce, Uh, like what? What’s that?

[00:47:39.46] spk_2:
Yeah, OK, I think we’re gonna go onto something else. Yeah, Like what?

[00:48:06.94] spk_5:
I don’t know. I can tell you. So you want to review if you have policies in place, review them. You don’t have policies in place. You need to kind of tell folks what’s expected of them when I’m working from home. Uh, need to communicate. You can’t over to communicate on these types of things. Training annual training would be helpful, but you’re a few of the things that could go wrong. Ah, lot of folks transfer, transfer organizational data to their email accounts and seventh and cells. A commercial email pound has a lot more protections in a personal email account. If they’re sending things from the from of the organization and downloading from emails, they should delete that email as soon as they get the day that they no longer need it. So don’t keep that in your emails that that could be hacked later on, uh, using personal cloud stores storage. Is that not all the same? Make sure the ones they’re using our secure physical document management. You know, we always think about digital data, but a lot of people bringing things from their office home and as a physical document, how is that being capped it when it’s all over leading houses being destroyed, it should be left in a car to be shredded. So let’s not. Let’s not forget about the security of physical documents, unsecured connections to employers if they’re not using BBN, that could be a problem. You need to make sure that people are accessing organizational information in a smart way.

[00:48:56.27] spk_4:
Yeah, that one.

[00:48:56.95] spk_2:
That that’s you. That’s where you have to look to your Internet service provider, right for the for the security that they’re providing on on your connection.

[00:49:42.97] spk_5:
Well, here’s the thing. That’s that’s about your home router. Personal public routers. Let’s talk about personal people have personal. Rather, you come into my home and you access trying to access my Internet. You need a 13 digit pass code. Most people don’t do that when they’re working from home. A lot of people keeping unsecured network. So would you recommend anybody work home should basically activate their round of firewall and, you know, and utilize malware on their computers and and make make everything password protected. So that’s a great example of you. Don’t people think I’m hold? Who’s gonna access my information? That could be easily hacked your home router?

[00:49:48.43] spk_2:
Yeah, okay. On our malware protection so that I mean, that’s something that the employees would have to subscribe to.

[00:49:55.27] spk_5:
Well, yeah. So we’re talking about non working shooters, right? Way are Yeah. You’re

[00:50:12.35] spk_2:
in your home? Yeah. I’m not writing home. I have next ride to where the company has got. The organization has to pay me to subscribe to, uh, malware bytes or something. One of the malware protection companies. Well, we’re in three Norton, 3 60 policies. Something like

[00:50:16.50] spk_5:
that. Yeah, well, working organization. But some of these things, like every router, comes to the ability to put put a password on it. So some of these things are just reminding employees and training them on best practices. Are you working from home here? Like the 10 tips you should be keeping in mind Remind them about from time to time. A lot of a lot of unauthorized access and data breaches. A large percentage could be avoided with just some kind of smart polluting practices.

[00:50:58.80] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Yeah, there’s I think they’re gonna be a lot more people working from home. Ah, year from now than there were in 2019. Um, I mean, including on the employee side. I’ve heard from a few people that they like working from home. No. And there have been there. I just saw. I just saw study some research like yesterday or something, but were more productive when we’re working from home

[00:51:08.93] spk_5:
back. I

[00:51:45.12] spk_2:
don’t. Well, there’s a lot of reasons. Plus, it’s better for the environment. You save commuting costs, you save gas or public transit. We’re keeping people off the roads. It’s safer. Better for the environment. Yeah, there’s a lot of advantages. All right. Um, I’m you know, I’m a neo fighting all these things, but I know how to read. I can read and regurgitate. I’m like, I’m, like, a like a billboard that you put something on my forehead and then you can read it off my forehead. That Z that’s my role. Um, all right, so we got, like, another three minutes or so, Roughly. You want to leave us with? Yeah, I think you have some. Some resource is tools you can recommend.

[00:51:51.86] spk_5:
You know, I actually I have a lot of different checklists. You said you’re a billboard on a checklist maker s. So I have a variety demand check checklist related to both data data. Privacy on its GDP are policies which should be in there. Your privacy policy. What elements should be in there? No. People always ask me tony can you just give me privacy policy and, like, know who’s that? Privacy policy describes what you do. You know the worst thing that you take somebody else’s privacy policy from another wet side. A is copyright infringement, but it never fits where you’re doing. So I can give you a list, for example, elements that need to be every province in policy. But how you address those, for example, depends upon what your organization is doing with the data. How is it looking at in the back? It? How is this sharing what third party better is really working with? So a lot of my re sources are kind of best practices and tips. I’m happy. I know you get my email just before I’m strictly looking access. But what’s like? I’m happy to kind of, you know, give me some people toe, depending on their needs. Anything we talked about today, there’s a checklist for that.

[00:52:51.88] spk_2:
Uh, these aren’t on the check the silent on the Perlman website, though

[00:52:56.55] spk_5:
I don’t think we posted on the website. Typically, I like to hear what the client needs. Just before, I kind of threw out checklist because, you know, sometimes a lot of information to be overwhelming.

[00:53:14.11] spk_2:
Okay, so, John, at permanent perlman dot com. Um, all right, John. I mean, uh, is there anything you want, toe? I’ll give you a chance to close. And you want to close with?

[00:53:20.65] spk_5:
No, this is again. Thank you for the opportunity I started. I think our conversations saying that you know what I’ve seen? It’s not profits have really kind of lagged for profits and kind of, you know, taking some of these precautions. A lot of things you talk about are simply achieved. It takes a little time, little commitment, but taking some of these small steps, go a long way and come and you know you can never take it. You know, data breach on the north rise access off the table. But you can certainly kind of mitigate risks and be better stewards of the data you’re collecting on behalf of her donors. So I hope this was helpful again. And I love kind of counseling our clients on these types of information the sets of policies of because I know it puts them in better stead.

[00:54:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah. All right. John Janet Perlman and roman dot com. Thank you. very much for doing that, John. Thank you for sharing my pleasure. Next week. Maria Simple returns, plus a 20 NTC panel. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Creative producer

[00:55:27.10] spk_0:
is clear. Meyer off. I did the postproduction. Sam Liebowitz managed The extreme shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. You with Me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.