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Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2022: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look big picture at your HR investments, corporate docs and financials. Also, what to look out for in crowdfunding, donor disclosure, data protection, and more. Gene is principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO) and our legal contributor.

 

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[00:02:10.34] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of proto psychosis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show Legal Outlook for 2022, Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look at big picture items like your HR investments, corporate docs and financials also though what to look out for in crowdfunding donor disclosure, data protection and more, jean is principal of the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group Neo and our legal contributor On Tony’s take two 50% off planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s always my pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi to the show. You know who he is. It’s almost it’s almost superfluous for me for me to do the intro. But but jeanne deserves it. He’s well credentialed and I want to make sure that he gets his due introduction. Gene Takagi are legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco. He edits that wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should be following and he is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and he’s at jeanne, Welcome back.

[00:02:11.94] spk_1:
Great to be back. tony how are you?

[00:02:13.98] spk_0:
It’s always a pleasure. Thank you. I’m well happy New Year.

[00:02:17.99] spk_1:
Happy New Year.

[00:03:05.74] spk_0:
Thank you. And let’s, so let’s let’s talk about the new year. Um and just before we do I want to remind folks that not too long ago we have genes one, our legal audit which you might want to look back at. That was a sort of a condensed version of some of what we’re gonna talk about today. Although we have lots of new subjects to talk about today too. But there was the one our legal audit and also with jean recently Risk management Part one and then a different show. Risk Management Part two. So those are resources that you can look back at just from a couple of months ago and we’ll go into and and those go into more detail on some of what we’re gonna talk about today jean. Uh where would you like to start for the new year, throw it open, throw it, I throw it open to you. What would you like to start with?

[00:03:58.64] spk_1:
So it does seem like kind of this chance that restarting, getting reenergized and thinking about our organizations and where we wanted to go. Um Yes, we have to keep in mind some of those um risks that we talked about in previous shows but we also have to think about kind of where we want to go. What of our, what our dreams are um what our vision is for the organization? Had we properly captured it? Um, what is our mission? Is that sort of properly captured? Is everything because our environment seems to be changing week by week. It seems to be new stuff that comes up that we have to consider. Are we still on track with where we want to go? So having these sort of broader discussions. I like sending those organizational priorities for the new year.

[00:04:06.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um, what would you, what what priority would you like to start with?

[00:06:07.94] spk_1:
Sure. So, um, being the lawyer, I say, okay, let’s talk about legal compliance just to make sure we’ve got some systems in place, mission and values, which we’ve frequently emphasized them when we’ve had discussions about not just existing to further your mission, but to do it in a way that advances your values and if equity and inclusion of part of those values, then, you know, that’s something you should be thinking about as well, definitely considering some of the trends that are out there. And I know we’ll get into that a little bit later in the show, but also including kind of the times that we’re we live in and acknowledging that yes, we’re under the impact of Covid, which seems to be shifting constantly in both how it’s affecting us and how we might need to respond to it. The great resignation, which certainly isn’t completely unrelated to the Covid, but that is a huge trend and movement as we’re trying to figure out how do we keep our workers, are we burning them out? The mental health issues that are, you know, hitting pretty much all of us, um, from the isolation, remote, working from the uncertainties of health, from sick family members and loved ones and all of that and saying, well, are we going to be able to keep our team together? Should we be keeping our team together the way we’re working now? Do we need to shift our work practices? Do we need to shift what type of benefits for giving to them? All of those things have got to be sort of raised? And I would say raise at the board level, you know, together with the executives and senior management team. Let’s talk about it. Let’s brainstorm think about this and get what our organizational priorities are this year, because things can change rapidly and rapid change if you don’t have any plans um, to anticipate some of them don’t have contingency plans can force you into very, very stressful times where immediate actions are necessary and you can sometimes make bad decisions if you’re under that type of time stress. So

[00:06:18.63] spk_0:
then it because then it becomes a crisis

[00:06:20.30] spk_1:
right? Exactly.

[00:06:48.64] spk_0:
And and a crisis in staffing, especially knowing how hard it is to hire folks now, you know, you talked about, you know, keeping the team together or should we keep should we keep the team together? But, you know, I’m sure you’re seeing it with your clients. The difficulty in hiring, you know, you want to, that, that, that’s a, that’s a huge factor in, you know, do we have the right team? Well, putting the right team together, it’s gonna take a lot longer than it used to?

[00:08:01.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. And if you’re talking about retention, you got to figure out what are you going to invest in this? I know you want to, you know, provide as much as you can to your beneficiaries. But if you’re not really considering the team of people in, you know, on your team that are providing those services that are supporting those services, the whole thing can collapse. So just remember where your infrastructure and when your groundwork is and how important the human resources are in your organization to being able to deliver services and provide goods for your charitable missions. So really important not to neglect that. And that requires an investment both on retention and if you aren’t able to retain everybody and you need to recruit, you’re gonna have to be able to show what you’re going to invest in those new employees and give them time to learn. You can’t expect them to perform like experience people have, um, in the past. So it’s, you know, some patients, um, and definitely investment in education and training and orientation, um, and all the rest and again, um, to the extent that your executive is probably also overwhelmed with everything else going on. The board is really pivotal in trying to be able to come up with plans that help invest in their teams.

[00:08:10.44] spk_0:
This goes to legal audit the conversation we had a few months ago. You’d like to see a review of governing documents to.

[00:09:31.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I I always think that that’s a great thing to check out in the new year. Just even if you have somebody, you know, a higher up kind of a board member or where your executive or senior manager take a look At your articles and bylaws, even spending 30 minutes on it and saying is our mission really reflected in these documents or have we evolved into something else? And these documents are like stale and old and outdated now in that case those documents still rule. So if you have the I. R. S. Or a state regulator coming in audit you, if you’re not performing within that mission statement in your articles and bylaws, you could be acting completely out of compliance and worst case scenario, you can really threaten the organization through penalties, etcetera. So that’s something to take a look at. Also just take a look at a lot of organizations. I find out their their boards, they’re like, oh, you know, we forgot to elect them. You know, we, we, you know, we’ve had terms, you know of two years but they’ve been on for like 10 years and we’re happy with them. So we just don’t do elections that can be really, really harmful as well for multiple reasons. But you know, sit back, see what you’re doing and what you’re not doing consistent with your articles and bylaws. And if you need to change things determine that you have to change. And if you need the help of a lawyer, try to find somebody that can help you with that. And there are some good resources on the web as well.

[00:09:48.64] spk_0:
What’s, what’s one of the good resources?

[00:10:15.04] spk_1:
A little bit of a self plug because I’m a board member, but board source has excellent resources on board of directors, governance things of that nature. Stanford University also has excellent resources in terms of sort of template documents that are just a guide for nonprofits. It’s not one size fits all, but it just gives you a general idea about how some things operate. Um, so those are just too good resources to look at.

[00:10:18.35] spk_0:
And, and again, we, we talked about this extensively in the show called your one

[00:10:24.34] spk_1:
hour legal audit.

[00:10:30.14] spk_0:
You have some last one. You have some financial performance advice for the new year.

[00:13:04.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Well I think probably, um, most people take a look at their financials throughout the year on the board level and on the executive level. Um, but the new year, you’ve actually sort of completed your financials and they might not be, um, in final form yet, but you might have what some people call it pro form, a set of financials, um, sort of close to final, where you get to assess what you’ve done in the year, you know, for, for most organizations, this goes without saying, but you want to make sure that you’re performing in a way that you’re not becoming insolvent. So you want to make sure what your balance sheet looks like and whether you have net assets, um, if you don’t have net assets, that means that you are either insolvent or, you know, in the zone of insolvency, you have to think about how you’re going to address that very serious issue. And I would say you don’t have internal expertise on dealing with it, get outside help right away if that’s the case. But your, your statement of revenues and expenses as well, are you sort of operating what people call in the black so that there is, you know, some net income in there or are you operating in the red where you’re very concerned because you’re losing money, timing is always important. So it’s misleading to look at one year in isolation because sometimes grants are given in one year, but they’re actually uh received in another year. So the timing issue can pose different challenges about reading financials. So you want to be able to read it sort of collectively through a multi year period just to know where you stand. And again, if board members aren’t able to help an executive and the executive feels like they need some help with understanding financials, to reading financials invest in everybody’s training in this area and there are a lot of people, even pro bono, that, that are offering this training pro bono and a lot of resources on the web. So make sure you understand your financials and what they’re indicating. You don’t need to know every single financial ratio that you know, business people use, but just generally no. Are you healthy financially or are you trending bad? And if you have several years where you’re in the red, where you, where you’re not making money, it looks like you’re bleeding money, then that might be indicative of some change that’s necessary in order to make your organization sustainable on an ongoing basis. So again, you don’t want to hit crisis mode financially. So this is a good chance, take a look at your financials, not just last year, but over a multiyear period and see where you are, get help if you need it.

[00:15:08.54] spk_0:
We have a show that I replayed, oh, I think within the past six months, uh, the guest was Andy Robinson. So you could go to tony-martignetti dot com and just search his name Andy Robinson, but it was something like teaching your board basic financials and he wrote a book, I’m pretty sure it was published by charity channel, uh, with, with a title similar to that. So if you, and the show is a few years old, but reading financial statements and and balance sheets hasn’t changed much in probably 100 years. Um, so it’s just all in and out now now, it’s all in Excel. But uh, so if you’d like some help with that, there is a, there is a show where Andy Robinson was the guest talking about, you’re improving your boards, financial literacy. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, your 2022 communications plan. Does it have lots of projects? Lots of writing projects? You can get the biggest projects off your plate and outsource them. Free up staff time to devote to the work that it’s not feasible to have others doing for you. Like the annual report, just because it’s been done in house in the past, doesn’t mean it has to be done in house this year. What about research reports, White papers, your other heavy lift pieces. Do you need help with writing projects in 2022, Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to legal outlook for 2022 with Gene Takagi. Okay, so let’s talk about some trends then, jean, you have a, you have a case we haven’t talked about, we haven’t talked about an actual case for a while. Americans for prosperity.

[00:19:16.54] spk_1:
Yeah. So um that was a huge U. S. Supreme Court case at least huge for the nonprofit sector. Um, but with deeper implications for if I if I’m not over hyping it for democracy itself. So um so americans for prosperity, Foundation versus Banta, who was the California Attorney general basically it was about the schedule be disclosure of donors who donated more than $5000. So for nonprofits who know how to prepare their form 19 nineties, you’ll know that on schedule B of your form 1990. Eur actually disclosing to the I. R. S. It’s not public information. Um But it’s to the I. R. S. The name and address of your donors who donated more than $5000. Now that hasn’t changed, you still have to disclose it to the I. R. S. But certain states, including California where volunteers from as the attorney general um New york I believe New Jersey I believe Hawaii also included Um all asked for a copy of the 990 including an unredacted schedule B to be given to the state regulator because they also want to look at that information for state law compliance purposes. A lot of them are concerned about donors who give money but get something back in return that’s not being disclosed. So if they ever have to have an investigation of that, that information turns out to be very helpful to the state to be able to say ah they were giving money but they also took in this huge benefit, this huge contract for example, which you know, reap them millions of dollars. Um So there was a legal case um that went up through the courts um finally hit the U. S. Supreme Court and the A. G. Lost here, The California G. Um So the court decided and we know the court’s composition is fairly conservative right now. The court decided that uh the states don’t have this right. Um It was based on the fact finding of the lower courts which is a little bit unfortunate because if the higher court could have considered more facts, then it might have been decided a different way but based on kind of how how our legal system works and and and how the Supreme Court works and the composition of the Supreme Court. They held that, hey this is not disclosed able to the states essentially that’s the impact of it. The broader impact on why I said democracy might be uh issue here is because well what about sort of campaign finance disclosures? And what about the I. R. S. Should they be entitled to that information as well? So it’s really helpful in compliance. But the counter argument and why some organizations charities, we’re also um not in favor of the disclosures is because of the protection of the donor. And the old case cited um in this part of the argument was an N double A cp case that said, well, if we disclose our donors, the KKK had threatened to kill all of them. Um And you can see why privacy was important in that issue and this issue, it was nothing like this. I think it’s a Koch brothers, um, kind of funded charity. They wanted really to keep their identity, um, more hidden because they have desires to influence politics in many ways. And if it always gets associated with them, then the impact lessons. So if they can look like they’re ground swells of movements that are funding these things rather than individual donors, um, it looks better for for what they’re trying to do. So that’s, you know, that’s what’s at stake here is not only are the state’s not allowed to get this information that would really help them in state law enforcement of whether there’s diversion of charitable assets that benefit

[00:19:29.74] spk_0:
donors. But

[00:19:30.15] spk_1:
in the broader sense, are we going to allow more dark money to enter into our political systems without knowing that there are donors, heavy donors that back these, you know, politicians or political parties or political movements. So that’s the scary part about this decision.

[00:19:57.94] spk_0:
What’s the, I think infamous Supreme Court case that that allowed the allowed the dark money into, uh, into politics. United

[00:20:02.73] spk_1:
Citizens. United

[00:20:27.54] spk_0:
United. Yeah. Um, All right. All right. And so I just want to repeat this. So this case that Gene was just talking about is americans for prosperity Foundation V. Banta B. O. N. T. A. What about crowdfunding you, you point out that there’s a new crowdfunding law. Hope is this a little more optimistic? I hope?

[00:21:22.54] spk_1:
Uh, well, depending upon how you look at it. And I think in one sense it’s inevitable. Um, a lot of our laws that are developed regarding fundraising, um, don’t even, and never anticipated the internet, right, johnny. So, uh, you know, now crowdfunding platform is, you know, not just the internet, the use of the internet, but it’s a lot of different for profit companies getting involved, um, to enable charities and organizations and people who are not charities to raise funds that look like they could be for charitable purposes, Right? So you want to help victims of a fire, but you want to help them directly, because some individuals said, I want to start a Go fund Me campaign, right? And say, well, you know, chip in 50 bucks and let’s try to get these people some help doesn’t, that doesn’t go through a charity. Often it just goes to this person, right, who promises to give these other people money

[00:21:35.90] spk_0:
and go funding the person’s goodwill. Honestly, yeah,

[00:21:58.14] spk_1:
Go fund Me is, you know, reacted to this and they’re probably the biggest crowdfunding platforms. So they’ve reacted to this in terms of having their own internal policies to help prevent a check. But overall, there’s, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of crowdfunding platforms out there that do this to make a profit. Um, and they may not have those types of controls or checks to not to just, you know, prevent somebody from saying, let’s raise money to help fire victims and then just keeping it. Um, so,

[00:22:11.97] spk_0:
what, what, what is the import of the law for, for us?

[00:23:21.34] spk_1:
So I think the import of the law is, if you’re going to get on and decide, hey, we want to do crowdfunding, um, you’ve got to select your platform provider carefully and this law, which is in California, but is likely to spread across different states in various forms, says, well now, if you’re gonna do that, you’ve got to make sure that this crowdfunding platform is registered. Um, and they’re reporting and there are all sorts of rules involved. So if you have a contract with them, it should be subject to these rules that might say things like, well, if they collect money, they have to give the money to the charity within a certain time period. Right? So they couldn’t say, well, it takes this administration, so maybe a couple of years before you get that, you know, nobody’s gonna be happy with that, but without rules, why not? Um, so these are, this is why it’s important for charities to have rules. The actual details of the rules. So I can see why some people have some, some issue with them. And we haven’t had all of the regulations yet, they’re still in discussion. So this is very, Still very trending, but the crowdfunding law, the law, the general law that’s in place now will become effective in California in 2023, and the regulations are being developed right now,

[00:23:58.04] spk_0:
let’s turn to remote work, which is obviously so much more common now. Hybrid work, you know, return to work dates are being pushed off and off. Um What what are what are what are what trends are you seeing? What should be on, will you be on the lookout for with respect to uh remote work and employment law issues?

[00:25:10.84] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s, you know, this is a really tricky area. Um you know, for sure, Covid where people were suddenly not permitted to to go indoors in some cases for months. Um and who knows if, you know, we’re going to return to some of those scenarios with the omicron variant out there, We’re hoping that it’s less um severe in terms of its impact, even if it might be a more transmissible, but if we if we keep worrying about this and saying, you know, our workers aren’t comfortable coming to work, even if the law allows them to come to work. Um Maybe we’re going to let people work remotely, and many of us have gone full remote, some of us have gone back to partial returns, some have gone back to full returns and then gone back, you know out the other way and said, okay, you know, it’s at the workers discretion whether they want to come in or not. So what makes us a little bit tricky. Um is that you don’t control the work environment as the employer, if they’re working at home, right? Um but that becomes the work environment, if they’re doing work from home, that’s their work environment, and, you know, the employer is responsible for the work environment if they should get hurt, for example,

[00:25:22.94] spk_0:
um

[00:26:56.24] spk_1:
So it becomes a little bit tricky about, well, how do you, how do you handle that for workers comp reasons, for safety reasons, for OSHA reasons? Um and I think there’s an understanding by regulators that, you know, this is out of control of most small businesses, small charities and, you know, to to that extent, we’re not really gonna look to enforce things on that level, but there are other things that, that are also concerning, because not everybody goes when, when they decide to work remote, we work in the same city or in the same state, right. A lot of us um have decided to, you know, maybe move back with family, which might be in another state. In some cases it could be another country, or some of us have decided to travel and spend a little bit of time, you know, in different places. Um So how does allow treat that? And basically, you know, the old rules, which are the rules, many of us are stuck with. Um the old rules are, well, you have to comply with the laws where the worker is doing the work, so if you have a worker in new york who’s now working remotely and came out to florida, well, then all the employment rules regarding worker safety and wage and hour laws and salary, overtime, sick pay benefits, all the florida laws apply to that worker now. Um, and so now it’s like, well, you’ve got to work in florida, you’ve got to think about, are you qualified to do business in

[00:27:00.21] spk_0:
florida,

[00:27:36.94] spk_1:
charity registration in florida? Um, and you may have had no connection to florida before, but all of a sudden you have a worker working there. Um, so a few states, um, and they’re not very many, but a few states that said, well, you know, during covid, we’ve got these temporary rules where we’re relaxed, where you don’t have to do that. And there’s also state tax issues, right? State payroll taxes, and, and other times, all of those things, some states said, you don’t have to worry about it. A lot of organizations are simply not complying with, But,

[00:27:37.49] spk_0:
but you said it’s only a handful of states that said, we’re we’re we’re not enforcing

[00:27:42.14] spk_1:
right. Exactly.

[00:27:43.33] spk_0:
The majority of

[00:29:01.34] spk_1:
states are, Yeah, well, I shouldn’t say they’re enforcing, but they haven’t the old laws or the existing laws still apply. There are no transition laws, so you’re out of compliance. And if they do enforce, which might not be like a, you know, a regulator coming out to you and saying you haven’t done this, it may be your employee is unhappy with something you’ve done, who’s working there and said, hey florida law applies and you haven’t been complying with the florida sort of benefits laws that, that apply. And maybe I could give you more specific example because san Francisco, if you came out to California, your remote employee came out to California, san Francisco has mandatory six hours and not a lot, a lot of states don’t have sick our pay. Um, but all of a sudden if you’re not paying them and they get wind of that, hey, you were supposed to pay me for this and you haven’t been, it’s the employee who could launch the complaint. Um, so it’s just to be careful of these things and, and just as your strategy for charity registration, tony when you’re sort of fundraising all over the country to, to, you’re not going to be able to maybe do all 50 states at once, but just to make sure you’ve got a plan to attack this kind of the same thing here. Um, check out where your employees are, you should know exactly where they are and check each state in terms of how strictly, maybe in terms of enforcing this and start to slowly comply

[00:30:12.74] spk_0:
the implications of state law. Yeah. What about the technology remote work? I don’t know if that’s all been figured out yet and maybe there were, maybe there were stopgap measures during the, during the, the darkest part of the pandemic, but but going forward, you know, tech technology has to be, has to be upgraded. You know, are we gonna, we’re gonna continue providing work phones? Are we going to provide work laptops? What about paying for internet access over the long term? I mean, you know, the internet access can be costly. And if if work is taking up a lot of the bandwidth, isn’t it appropriate for an employer to be paying a portion? And then how do then how does the, how does the, what’s the mechanism for the employee verifying how much they pay and you know, and then what percentage are we gonna cover of that, all the all the technology issues around, around remote work.

[00:30:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, def definitely. And and as an as an employer, I would say, beyond sort of any legal compliance issues, um, you’ve got a, I think an ethical issue to make sure you’re providing your employees with the tools to do their job. And if you’re allowing remote work, you should make sure that they have the tools. So if they need a computer to be able to access it, so they’re not, they’re not using their personal computer. Um then you should make sure that happens same thing with the telephone. And if, you know, if those are going to be dedicated to work, um it should be explicitly written out that way. But if you force them to use their personal things, there are some states that actually do have laws that say you must reimburse your your employees if they’re using the tools that they need um for for remote work, but just ethically. Yeah.

[00:31:18.74] spk_0:
But then that’s then that raises security issues too. Absolutely. They have any kind of HIPPA protected information on their personal laptop. That’s gonna be a big problem. That that’s I think that’s probably a mistake if you’re dealing with that kind of data. But um

[00:32:01.74] spk_1:
and don’t we probably all have that type of stuff on our personal computers, right? You know, sort of HIPPA protected? We may have had emails like that are saved onto our computers. Um Right. So if if the computer is also being used for work and there’s a work issue that causes that data to be taken or corrupted, like, you know, what’s the employer’s responsibility if they hadn’t provided an alternative, it’s a great point

[00:32:50.94] spk_0:
and and it’s not only hip hop data, but other other personalized data that that maybe on now the personals, the employee’s personal computer, desktop or laptop or phone, you know, how is that? How is that private private data protected? Do they have malware prevention on their on their personal devices so that so that company emails that they’re that they’re using on their personal device aren’t potentially compromised. I mean, the use of the personal equipment raises a lot of technology and and Legal privacy and ethical issues to your right. I mean, if the person is eight or 10 hours a day, they’re using their personal laptop, shouldn’t there be some compensation for that?

[00:34:46.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think minimally because no matter you know how much we encourage people to have sort of work dedicated computers provided by the workplace, people are going to use their personal phones. I mean we can go back to the politicians who have all been using their personal funds. So we know it happens regardless of what the best practices. But what can the employer do, they can pay for all of that data protection stuff that that computer should have. Right, tony because now it has much more sensitive information on there and the employer is partly responsible for some of the other information that could be on there and hack. So yeah, employers should help. And that kind of leads us to the whole data security issue as well that everybody’s got to be paying attention to now is really um nonprofits have important data in their system. Some of it is, you know, hipaa protected some of it is other privacy information. You may have employment reviews on there that you don’t want going out into the real world or client, you know, feedback which might be positive. Some of it might be negative sensitive communications, all sorts of stuff that you might find on a work computer and if it gets hacked and if that data gets stolen or if somebody holds the system which might run your programs or aspects of your programs if they cause your system to crash and say that they will only sort of fix it because they’ve hacked and caused the crash. If you pay a ransom, you’ve got all sorts of problems. Uh and maybe some of that may have been mitigated with some basic steps like you mean you’re not going to be, well even the U. S. Government can’t prevent all hackers. I think we we know that, but you can take reasonable steps based on your budget, whatever that might be to to control some of this. So it really is important to have some safeguards.

[00:34:55.74] spk_0:
Another potential category of data is the G. D. P. R. Data. If if if your nonprofit is implicated at all in in that european common law law then or the yeah then then you’ve got those concerns as well.

[00:35:08.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. So if you have european donors or you’re doing business with any european entities and you have data from those entities or persons be careful and again, remote working can trigger some of that. So if if they decided to, you know their home or or they want to travel to europe and do their work from there.

[00:35:28.74] spk_0:
Um,

[00:35:29.74] spk_1:
all sorts of implications.

[00:37:44.03] spk_0:
Yeah. Absolutely right. People very good point where where people are sitting and where they’re planted when they’re working, It’s time for Tony Take two We’ve got 50% off the tuition for planned giving accelerator. That’s because just last week A donor stepped up someone who believes very deeply in planned giving accelerator and he is offering to pay 50% of the tuition For the 1st 10 nonprofits that take him up on his offer. A couple have already done it as of the time I’m recording, but there are several spots left. So if you’ve been toying with the idea of planned giving accelerator, it’s never going to be cheaper than 50% off. What the way this will work is. You’ll pay the tuition in full, which is $1195 for the six month course. This donor will then make a gift to you of half of that. So you’ll have a new donor, he’ll pay half your tuition. So it ends up being 50% off the full tuition cost. I know the donor, it’s someone I trust you have my word. Your final cost will be half of the full tuition if you’d like to jump on this and be one of the members of what is now our february class. I want to give people enough time for this because it, it just came in last week. So I’m extending, we’re, we’re not gonna start the class until february if you’d like to be part of that february class At 50% off email and we’ll, we’ll talk about planned giving accelerator and whether it can help you launch your planned giving program. Mhm. tony at tony-martignetti dot com. That’s me. That is Tony’s take two, We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for legal outlook for 2022

[00:38:01.22] spk_1:
one and one of the tools to think about and I’m a little bit guilty of this as well um is be careful of public wifi um because that often is an entryway for a

[00:38:03.83] spk_0:
hacker. Yeah, that’s totally unsecured airports, airplanes,

[00:38:09.89] spk_1:
coffee shops,

[00:38:13.42] spk_0:
coffee shops, Starbucks, wherever those are, all unsecured networks.

[00:38:29.32] spk_1:
Right? Meaning that there is the potential for somebody in there who has some malicious intent if they want to be able to hack into to your computer through that public wifi. Unsecured wifi. And there are different systems um but maybe one of the simplest for for those of us who have smartphones, which I think is most of us is you could actually create a sort of a private wifi just

[00:38:52.92] spk_0:
for your smartphone, right? Hotspot? Hotspot and don’t use the unsecured wifi to connect to, you know, use the uh the four G or five G or the five GHZ et cetera.

[00:38:56.17] spk_1:
Right? And that’s something an employer could pay to make sure that the employee has significant data and data plan that can incorporate all the additional data that they may need in their plan because of the work. So again, that would be reasonable and and ethical for the nonprofit employer to pay for their employees to have a higher data plan. Um, if they’re going to to use that and insist as a policy that they do not use public wifi. If they’re using a work computer or a computer that contains work and sensitive information,

[00:39:36.52] spk_0:
all you need is to transmit an email on, on an unsecured wifi that that has a donors credit card number, maybe

[00:39:38.77] spk_1:
native

[00:39:58.12] spk_0:
birth address, name any, any two of those things together, uh, hacked could be very detrimental to that donor. And you know, whether it ever gets traced back to you is is uncertain, but you’ve, you’ve put your donors privacy at risk in a simple email that has any two of those pieces of information.

[00:40:04.31] spk_1:
And it appears to be a myth, um, when people have relied on, they’re not going to go after us because we’re nonprofits, people don’t go

[00:40:12.29] spk_0:
after. Oh, that’s bullshit. Oh, that’s ridiculous.

[00:40:14.57] spk_1:
Right?

[00:40:22.61] spk_0:
I’m working with a client now that, that is a, is in new york city that’s, that’s, um, victim of, of a malware, uh, ransomware, so brought me a ransomware attack.

[00:40:27.61] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:40:40.41] spk_0:
And they’re keeping it quiet so I’m not permitted to say who it is. But um, yeah, they’ve, they’ve been, they’ve been hindered for weeks and weeks with data accessibility issues.

[00:40:42.71] spk_1:
Yeah. And it’s much more common than we think because organizations do want to keep it quiet because if there is a vulnerability, they don’t want to come and say other hackers come come and attack us, we’re vulnerable. So it may be much more pervasive than we think

[00:40:57.61] spk_0:
and that myth also breaks down along ideological

[00:41:00.04] spk_1:
lines.

[00:41:21.61] spk_0:
Some some person on the left may may attack an organization on the right. Some person on the right may attack an organization on the left just because of where the organization stands with respect to the person’s political and ideological beliefs that that that’s enough. It doesn’t matter that you’re a nonprofit. It’s it’s your ideology and your mission. It has nothing to do with your tax exempt status as to why somebody would or wouldn’t go after you.

[00:41:28.41] spk_1:
Yeah and um in these times that those ideological differences have been very um pronounced and. Yeah.

[00:41:41.11] spk_0:
Alright where else should we go? Gene with trends, trends for the new year. Come on.

[00:44:24.69] spk_1:
Um Let’s talk a little bit since we’re talking about technology and data security. Let’s talk a little bit about crypto currency because I find that pretty fascinating. Um There was an organization that came together and bid $40 million on a copy of the U. S. Constitution just a few weeks ago. Um That money the $40 million plus more I think about 47 or $48 million was raised for that purpose in less than two weeks. Um So um Cryptocurrency donors um often have made a ton of money because of the appreciation of cryptocurrencies like. Bitcoin for for those who aren’t super familiar with it. Um And if you donate Cryptocurrency, it’s like donating a non cash asset, meaning that if You bought crypto currency for $1,000 10 years ago and it’s worth now several million dollars, which if you bought the red Cryptocurrency, that might be the case if you sold it, uh you would have a lot of taxes to pay on that appreciation right? The several million dollars of appreciated income that would be subject to capital gains tax. Um So if you sold it and donated some of the proceeds, that would not be a very tax efficient way to donate. When if you donated the Cryptocurrency itself, what you do is you get to take a fair market value deduction of the several million dollars. So you gave several million. So potentially you could deduct that is a charitable contribution and pay no capital gains tax because he never sold it. Um So very tax efficient way of giving um And Cryptocurrency people, wealthy millionaires and others who decided that they wanted see some positive impact um from giving these gifts are are making gifts of Cryptocurrency now and that’s that’s partly why I am so many gathered together to say hey we’d like to fund a charity to buy a copy of the U. S. Constitution so that we can ensure that this constitution is always for the public’s benefit and on public viewership and not sitting in somebody’s house, you know for for their own prestige. Um But that really opens it up, cherish. Think about there’s a lot of these people who made quite a bit of money on Cryptocurrency and a lot of younger people are investing barely heavily in Cryptocurrency now. So it’s something to not sort of blow away if we’re um kind of our age or older, tony to say, Cryptocurrency, what is that? It’s it’s something to really embrace now because it’s it’s not just this exotic tool now, it’s part of regular investment portfolios.

[00:45:56.79] spk_0:
Absolutely, it’s it’s it’s coming and and jean this dovetails perfectly with Our November 15 show of 2021 Bitcoin in the future of fundraising with my guests who are an Connolly and Jason shim who wrote a book Bitcoin in the future of fundraising. So, um it’s do you it’s just more, more sage advice that crypto donations are coming. It’s not a matter of if it’s just when are you gonna get on board now or you’re gonna wait two more years and potentially be behind the curve. Um and as an and Jason pointed out today, there are so few organizations accepting crypto that a lot of people are just searching for. Where can I donate? Cryptocurrency and probably largely, Gene for the reasons you’re describing there, They’re looking for a direct crypto donation to help them with substantial capital gains. Are there specific legal implications of crypto donations that that we need to be aware of or or is it just, you know, you just want folks to know that this trend is, it’s in the middle, it’s happening right now.

[00:48:15.97] spk_1:
So I think, you know, one of the reasons why charities are afraid to take Kryptos because they don’t know what laws apply when they receive the crypto. They’re like, what do we do with this? Um, and there are ways to easily cash that out and turn it into us cash. And in fact, most charities that accept crypto and they’re not a lot, you’re right, tony but most carriers that accept them liquidate them immediately turned them into cash and deposited into fiat currency, like regular paper currency, um, in their bank accounts. Um, So they’re not holding onto the crypto very long at all. One of the reasons why that’s, that can be very important is because there are prudent investor rules for charities that don’t apply to for profits that basically say if you’ve got investment assets, charities, this is not just endowments, but just any sort of investment assets for reserves or for a capital fund or anything you can’t invest. It speculatively, you couldn’t just throw it all in like Apple stock, um that would be too speculative. You have to look at it, uh, through what financial professionals, investment professionals called portfolio theory, are you sufficiently um, have an investment portfolio diversified across several different asset classes? So if one bombs, you haven’t tanked all of your money. Um, and the board of directors have a fiduciary duty to live up to the prudent investment laws that also sort of follow this portfolio theory of how how have you actually divest? Sorry? Um diversify Yeah. Um your your funds across different investment classes to protect yourself and there are different considerations that go along with that. Um But that is one reason why you don’t want to get stuck with all of your investments being in crypto because crypto maybe one of the most volatile type of investments where it can double in a matter of days and it could tank and disappear in a matter of days as well. So depending upon what type of Cryptocurrency you have and there are hundreds if not thousands of crypto types of Cryptocurrency um that have evolved in a lot of people and organizations that are making new coins all the time. So new new forms of Cryptocurrency arising and while we talked about crypto as being a part of more investment portfolios as a normal part of of investments. Now it’s not every Cryptocurrency that would be in that it’s certainly one

[00:48:47.07] spk_0:
1000 right? Some of these thousands trade for thousands of pennies, Thousands Yeah thousands of pennies even you know .0001 three zeros and a one is you know is the value of the currency. Um So. Alright that’s perfect as I said, perfect dovetail to that to that uh that november show because you’re you’re raising the prudent investor rule and and uh portfolio theory.

[00:50:07.66] spk_1:
One more thing on this, tony the forms the I. R. S. Forms for when you get Non cash contributions of more than $500. And how quickly you sell them. Um Also applies to form 82 83 is what the donor needs to sign when they give a non cash contribution of over $500 of over $500. And if it’s over $5000 which many crypto gifts are, they have to get a qualified appraisal for this. So that’s really important. And the Dhoni which is the charity has to sign that form for the donor. And then if the donor the Dhoni, I’m sorry the charity sells it within three years, they have to sign a form 80 to 82. Yeah so that’s again it’s not terribly hard. It sounds like a lot of just legalese I’m blabbing out but it’s not too hard but just take a quick look at those. If you decide that you want to start getting Cryptocurrency and at worst you might ask your donor to find a donor advised fund that takes crypto turns it into cash and then disperses it to the charity. So there are donor advised funds that do that

[00:50:15.76] spk_0:
interesting. Okay so so a Cryptocurrency donation is a non cash donation

[00:50:19.90] spk_1:
correct?

[00:50:58.76] spk_0:
Okay and for non cash donations of $500 or more, That’s where your your donor has the implication of i. r. s. Form 82 83. And you as the charity if you sell it within three years which your advice is that they do because it’s of its volatility Then you’ve got the implication of i. r. s. Form 80 – 82. I always thought those were backwards. The donors should have 80 to 82 because that comes first. Then comes 82 83 from the don’t to the Dhoni first the donor has it. Then the charity should be 80 to 82 82 83. But it’s not It’s 82 83 for your donor and 80 – 82 for you.

[00:51:06.16] spk_1:
That sounds like larry david logic. But that’s how I think as well.

[00:51:10.58] spk_0:
Yeah. I’ve been accused of being larry David in lots of ways. Including my my hair when it’s long like it is

[00:51:16.23] spk_1:
now. I’ve

[00:51:33.46] spk_0:
been accused of looking like Larry David. But we’re not complaining, we’re helping. That’s all right. Um Alright let’s leave us with something else. Another trend for the new year that you want us to be thinking about gene. Um

[00:51:36.96] spk_1:
Let me talk a little bit about diversity equity and inclusion. Since we’ve we’ve talked about that in the

[00:51:42.21] spk_0:
past. You could search jean and I have talked about D. I a bunch of times. But

[00:53:46.05] spk_1:
yeah please. You know I think in combination when we talk about the great migration and how the pandemic might be affecting different populations in different ways that we start to think again about kind of? Well if our charity is doing some some mission and we might not think of that mission as being really reflective of of specific races or or anything like that. Um But could D. E. I. B. Important anyway. And I think that’s where we get to think about. Well if we had more perspectives in our organization, if if we’re lacking some of those perspectives now, for example not having a lot of latin thinks Hispanics or blacks or asian americans on the board or in the leadership group, maybe we’re not really thinking about how our services that we’re delivering are affecting different populations differently. Maybe we’re just sort of providing services but we’re focused on urban centers or urban centers where if we’re center based, our center based is in neighborhoods that are much more accessible to uh white populations versus other populations. So getting different perspectives, even if we think of ourselves as being race neutral, which is kind of a charged term. But I’ll just use it for for these purposes. If we think some of us think of ourselves as race neutral and therefore we don’t have to get involved in the D. E. I work. We want to say, well don’t we care about serving our population in a way that’s kind of fair and not just favoring one segment over other segments or just totally neglecting certain segments of the population because they don’t have the same type of access. Have we ever thought about those things and having diversity can help us think about those things. Um, but it has to be done obviously in an inclusive way, which we’ve talked about and I know we just have a few minutes here, but it’s

[00:54:03.34] spk_0:
sort of it’s touching on, you know, not knowing what you don’t know without without having the perspective of diverse populations on your board, in your leadership, then you don’t know how you’re not serving other non white populations. Yeah. And even when we were perceived by other by by non white populations.

[00:55:32.64] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. And even when we say, well when we look at a group of people and we say diversity, you know, that has one meaning. But sometimes when we just look in our inside our own heads, uh, and when people go unconscious bias, for example, try to think about what that is. It’s like, well if we don’t have the benefit of having different perspectives are being exposed to that all of our lives and none of us have all of the perspectives in our lives. So we were all going to be guilty of some sort of unconscious bias because we just don’t know any better. We we haven’t had other information that would have help develop a sensitivity or understanding or just knowledge of some of the disparities that are out there. So, and and how our organization can be either helping those disparities or hindering them. So just getting a sense of where we’d like to go. I think that can improve employee retention. It can lead us to new areas of employee recruitment and it can make us more relevant as organizations in the future, where if we’re not addressing some of these things, we could find ourselves becoming irrelevant less attractive to future donors, especially younger donors who this is very important to. Um, and so that’s my, my closing thought. Mhm.

[00:55:48.24] spk_0:
All good thoughts for uh, for the new year for 2022, Gene Takagi are legal, legal contributor, Managing attorney of Neo. You’ll find him at nonprofit law blog dot com. He’s also at G attack and you’ll find the firm at neo law group dot com. Gene again, thank you very much. Happy New Year.

[00:55:57.39] spk_1:
Happy New Year. tony

[00:56:47.13] spk_0:
next week. I’m working on it very diligently. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Do you need help with any of those ready projects in 2022? Get them off your plate. A creative producer is claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein. Mm hmm, thank you for that affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for January 10, 2022: Nonprofit Software Vulnerability With log4j

My Guest:

Joshua Peskay: Nonprofit Software Vulnerability With log4j

Happy New Year! There’s a software risk gaining attention and there’s a good chance you’ll need help diagnosing and repairing it. You don’t need to horde gas, cash and toilet paper. Just be aware and do the repair. Joshua Peskay, from RoundTable Technology, sorts it out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:11.84] spk_1:
Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with Producto Sigmoid itis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, non profit software vulnerability with log four J Happy New Year. There’s a software risk gaining attention and there’s a good chance you’ll need help diagnosing and repairing it. You don’t need to hoard gas, cash and toilet paper, just be aware and do the repair Joshua pesky from roundtable technology, sorts it out And Tony’s take two. Thank you jean and Amy sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o.

[00:01:45.14] spk_2:
It’s a pleasure to welcome back Joshua pesky eh he has spent nearly three decades leading technology change for over 1000 nonprofits. It’s especially dedicated to improving cybersecurity in the nonprofit sector and works regularly with at risk organizations to address digital security challenges. He regularly presents and teachers on topics including technology strategy, cybersecurity project and Change management. You’ll find him at Joshua pesky a and the company is roundtable technology, Joshua. Welcome back to nonprofit

[00:01:54.14] spk_3:
radio It is an absolute pleasure to be here. tony Thank you so much for having me on.

[00:01:58.17] spk_2:
Oh, it’s it’s my pleasure to and it’s been the three years or some since, since 18. NTCC

[00:02:05.47] spk_3:
when you were Yeah, which was that the no that was the second to last in person in TC they did the 2019 1 and then it’s been virtual since Yeah,

[00:02:14.24] spk_2:
2nd the last yes

[00:02:16.74] spk_3:
and Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you as well. Happy holidays to you and all your listeners as well.

[00:02:26.24] spk_2:
They’re our listeners today. Not my listen, they’re ours share and share. That’s fair. Our listeners.

[00:02:30.24] spk_1:
Um all right.

[00:02:42.74] spk_2:
Log four J potential security vulnerability that uh, well it is a security vulnerability that nonprofits potentially have give us the, the the 30,000 ft view before we dive in. What, what is this log for? J?

[00:05:43.74] spk_3:
Yeah. So log four J. First of all, on a technical level is a java based, that means the programming language that it’s written in his java and it’s a logging utility that is used predominantly on servers on what are known as Apache servers which run just a huge amount of the things that run on the internet. And this logging utility um, is a little bit of code that developers used to log things that happen on the server and then generate reports or create actions to help them identify bugs or other things that would go on. So that’s what log four J is and it’s very, very widely used. Um, and unfortunately it was disclosed, I think around December 10 was when it became public knowledge that there’s a pretty rough vulnerability in it that allows an attacker to essentially take control of a server that is running log for J in an incredibly simple way. And the organizations like the center for Information security um and the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency or cisa um they use this um terminology called si ves which is common vulnerabilities and exposures I think um I always forget what that stands for. Um yeah, common vulnerabilities and exposures are cbe, they have ratings of like 0 to 10 for how bad it is. So zero is like that’s not too bad. 10 is this is Armageddon and this is a 10 and the reason it’s a 10 okay, is twofold in the most simple way. One is that it’s a actually, I’ll say three. Okay, there’s three reasons. One is that it the vulnerability is the most, the worst thing possible that the exploit of the vulnerability allows complete takeover of the system that is exploited. So if your server is running this log four J utility and I can send it a single packet of data, I can take it over and now do anything I want on that system. So it’s really bad. Second is that at a rough estimate, uh this is running on something on the order of three billion devices um that are connected to the internet in some way. So it’s running on everything. And the third thing is that doing the exploit is incredibly easy. So a 12 year old can go download a little bit of code off the Internet and automate it and go out and find servers that are running along for J and take them over. So incredibly easy to exploit. And the combination of those three things is why all the security experts around the world started freaking out To varying degrees around December 10.

[00:05:55.54] spk_2:
Okay. And and sister calls it a 10 out of 10. Yeah, this is all very interesting. I just saw the movie. Don’t look up with Leonardo Dicaprio jennifer Adams, Meryl Streep.

[00:06:00.49] spk_3:
Someone was just telling you about this movie. I have not seen it yet, but mixed things about it. But yeah,

[00:07:24.24] spk_2:
a comment is coming to earth. Uh, they this comment is categorized as a planet killer. Uh, and the President Meryl Streep is uh, not initially focused, you know, and she, in the first meeting with the two folks who have identified this comment and its trajectory right toward Earth. You know, she decides to sit tight and assess and, and their estimate is that the comment is gonna hit Earth within six months. And it’s a it’s a planet killer. It’ll it’ll make us extinct. But she takes a sit sit tight and assess approach. Yeah. Right. So, so I’m I’m tempted. Um, No, but I don’t wanna I don’t wanna be that like physical about it. Um, but I want to keep things in perspective too. So, but 10 out of 10, you know, from sister. That’s that’s significant that obviously. So. All right. And thank you for explaining why it’s called log four J and what a logging application is. I’ve I’ve sometimes looked at logs and it’s just thousands of lines of activity that could be incremental, like every every couple of seconds or something depending on what the, what the, what the, what the activity is that the log is logging. Um it mean it means nothing to me but

[00:08:14.94] spk_3:
to write essentially a bit of code that runs on servers. Um there’s a really funny XK C D cartoon. I can, I can send you if you want to include in the show notes. Um XK C D is a cartoon by a cartoonist named Randall munroe. And he created this cartoon like two years ago. That’s like uh you know, the entire internet infrastructure. And it’s like this giant kind of house of cards thing, you know that everything is on top of. And then at the very bottom there’s like this one thing that’s holding the whole thing up and it’s like, this is a bit of code written for free and maintained for free by some developer in a small town in Nebraska. And this was like two or three years ago that he wrote this because he’s kind of like noting how so much of the critical infrastructure of the internet are just open source free projects that people maintain in their free time. And this is, this is almost literally that like this is just a utility that someone made a long time ago that no one pays for that’s free to use that was useful and everybody used it. And then it was like, oh, this has a vulnerability. We we now have to fix it and it’s everywhere.

[00:08:29.53] spk_2:
Send me a link to that that drawing because I know the one you’re talking. Another one you’re talking about. I think I saw it on your linkedin.

[00:08:35.54] spk_3:
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:08:37.35] spk_2:
But I want to include it. I’m gonna put it next

[00:08:39.11] spk_3:
to your headshot show in our show notes. Yes.

[00:09:35.04] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications Your 2022 communications plan, lots of projects on their, lots of writing. You can take the biggest projects off your plate and outsource them. Free up staff time to devote to the work. It’s not feasible to outsource the annual report does not need to be done in house just because it always has been, doesn’t mean it has to be. How about research reports, white papers, this stuff can be outsourced. Do you need help with your writing projects in 2022? Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to nonprofit software vulnerability with Log four J and Joshua Pesky EH

[00:09:44.04] spk_2:
And you also said it’s on three billion devices now, potentially. So it’s not just server level. Right? This could be an

[00:12:36.74] spk_3:
individual works problem. Yeah. And so, so here’s where everybody’s gonna start panicking, right? Which is, they’re like, well, if there’s three billion devices go ahead. Yeah well we don’t wanna panic. Right. Right so so people are thinking oh gosh I must have one of those devices or or more more of them in my home. And so the first thing is just you know calm down take a breath. Um But it it’s the most critical things are you know from a prioritization standpoint are things that accept input from the internet. Now this might be something that non technical people would would have difficulty understanding. But the average computer that you’re using or the printer in your home most likely is not accepting input from the internet meaning someone from the internet can’t just go and communicate with your printer or your coffee maker or your amazon Alexa. Right? Because it’s not accepting input from the internet. The way most devices on most networks and in most homes work is it’s a kind of one way invitation traffic rule. So your computer can get data from the internet and in that respect accepts input because the data comes in. But the only way data comes in is when you request it. So when you type google dot com in your web browser your computer is essentially making a request out to the internet and saying I’d like this information sent to me and then the internet sends it. But the internet can’t on its own. No one out of the internet on their own can send data to your computer without you requesting it. Okay that’s most cases, most people wouldn’t know whether their network or their devices are set up to receive input from the internet or not. But mostly they wouldn’t be they would have to have done something specifically to put themselves in a state where their home devices would be accepting data from the internet. But if you have a server that you’re using for any reason in your organization that accepts input from the internet then that server is if that server has this vulnerability on it by the time you’re hearing this podcast, it’s probably compromised already. And the term that cisa and C. I. S. And other security agencies uses assume compromise and that’s the stance they’ve had for several weeks. Now we’re recording this in december 28th. If you’re listening to this, let’s say january 15th. You know you’re and you have a server or more servers that are X. That are accepting input from the internet that have this vulnerability and you’ve done nothing about it at this point. You would assume compromise and that means um you need help. You need someone who knows how to go look at your server and look for indications of compromise and remediate them meaning fix them and undo them so that your server is not compromised. Um You’ll need help at that point. Okay

[00:13:04.94] spk_2:
let’s start with the first of all, thank you for being a calm voice and and explaining things. So you keep yourself out of jargon jail, which I appreciate our listeners appreciate. I I hate to slap you into jargon jail so

[00:13:09.83] spk_3:
but keep me keep me honest on it, tony If I, if I say stuff that’s like, you know, if I’m either being condescending or you know, you know, saying things that you are not, you know, the folks aren’t gonna understand. Call me out all the time. I

[00:13:53.94] spk_2:
will well condescending, I’ll just shut off your mic and we’ll just end perfect. I don’t I don’t tolerate condescension but jargon that’s recoverable. So let’s start with the case. Uh, you know, our listeners are small and midsize nonprofits. Let’s start with the nonprofit that does not have a person devoted to I. T. Let alone a team or you know, doesn’t have a devoted consultant. Do they need a consultant? Can they what what what should the non I. T. Affiliated nonprofit?

[00:17:13.64] spk_3:
Sure. So let’s say you’re you know f 5 to 50 person nonprofit. Maybe even up to 100 staff. Okay. And you have no dedicated I. T. Person, maybe you have an accidental Tuckey maybe of like a you know joe or jane laptop that helps you out with stuff, you know, as a consultant or maybe you work with a small managed service provider. Um someone who helps you with your technical, but let’s say you don’t have any dedicated resource. Okay. Whether you’ll need help or not, depends on whether the directions that I’m going to give you now are something you could do or you have someone in your organization who could do this. So what you would need to do okay is I’m gonna use two big words and then I’ll explain them. Enumerate and remediate. Okay. These are the two most important things to do in order. Enumerate. All right. Or enumeration is the act of figuring out what are all the things we have that may be vulnerable to this exploit. Okay. So I’ll give you just a simple example. We know uh and there’s a link will give you in the resource because again, C I s has a resource of all of the software applications, products, devices that are known to have a log for j vulnerability in that. So let’s say for example, I’m a typical nonprofit and we’re we have out of our 10 staff. We have five of them that use tableau desktop because we purchased it from tech soup and we used Tableau to do some data visualizations. That’s a really common application that lots of nonprofits would have running on their desktop. They probably aren’t updating it that regularly. Could be an older version Tableau which is now owned by Salesforce. So it shows up under Salesforce is listed in this directory of all the vulnerable applications. So you need to if you know that I have Tableau, I need to go to this list I need to search for Tableau and then I need to follow the links to see if the versions of Tableau that I have are in fact vulnerable and if so what I’m supposed to do about that, which is usually going to be to run some patch that updates it. So you need to do that for everything that you have. So the enumeration part is figuring out what’s all the software and devices that we have. Our firewalls are wireless access points are the operating systems that run on our computers, the software that runs in our computers and for many organizations, you’re already saying we have no idea about any of those things. We don’t have that written down anywhere. We don’t and that’s a real problem. And that that problem, you know, when, when you go to best practices about how to govern technology, they’ll say have an inventory, have it current, you know, having automated, so you can just go look online and right, this is why this is one of the reasons why that’s really important. If you don’t have that, this job at this time becomes extremely difficult for you. But if you don’t do it, You have no idea what vulnerabilities you have. It’s like not going in to get a physical in your doctor’s office for 20 years. You know, when you finally do go in, you’re probably gonna find a bunch of things that you maybe would have wished you found out earlier.

[00:17:20.14] spk_2:
Alright. So even before we get to remediation. Enumeration sounds overwhelming.

[00:17:47.04] spk_3:
If that sounds overwhelming then you need help. If there’s some if you have your accidental tech in your organization, you play them that part of this interview and you asked them could you do that? Apologize for sirens coming by? I don’t know how my Yeah, sorry about that. But if that person listens to it and says yes, I can do that. Give me a day or two. I’m pretty sure I can do that. Hey then you can do it if you have them listen to that and they’re like, I absolutely can’t do that. That sounds totally. Then you need help.

[00:18:01.14] spk_2:
Okay, let’s go to remediation then. So once you found out where your potential vulnerabilities are,

[00:18:07.04] spk_3:
yes, we do this

[00:18:08.04] spk_2:
patching. It sounds like in

[00:19:46.94] spk_3:
most cases exactly. So we’re saying okay, we’ve got five people running Tableau desktop, this is the remediation that we need. This is the software that needs to be updated. This is the setting that needs to be changed. I just whatever the instruction says, I need to go do it and check it off my list. So let’s say we have a sonic wall firewall that’s in our office network and that’s still running and we still have people coming to the office. So we need that to work. I need to go to the C. I. S for the enumeration piece um go see if the model of Sonic wall and the software version that we have on it. That’s our firewall. Is that listed here? If it’s not? Yeah. See we’re good. I can check that off the list if it is listed now. I need to follow the link through and see what is the remediation that I’m supposed to do to fix the vulnerability. Right. The enumeration part is I now know it’s vulnerable because it showed up on the list and then I verified it’s and it’s part of why this is hard for non technical people is you know, sonic wall has I don’t know 100 different firewalls that are out there in the world. Maybe more than that. And they’re at all different software versions. Right? And firmware versions. Firmware is like software that sits on a hardware device so it’s typically called firmware. Alright? But it’s just like software, you update it just like any other software and so I need to both see what model of sonic while I have the software or form firmware version that I’m running on it verify whether that sonic wall and that software version are vulnerable. And if so what I need to do to remediated and I need to do that for everything that I have. All right.

[00:19:56.94] spk_2:
Let’s just let’s let’s just get help. You’re just gonna have to if you don’t have someone devoted who can do this like like Joshua said play it back for them. It sounds it sounds as far into them as it does to me. You need you need you need help. You need help. Alright.

[00:21:38.64] spk_3:
And the urgency is like if if you have again public internet facing stuff, if you have if you know or think you have a server that accepts input from the internet, right? Again, if you don’t understand how to even know that, then you need help. If you have no organization that can help you understand that. But if you do know that that is by far your top priority and again, by the time you’re listening to this, if you haven’t done it, assume compromise. It’s it’s probably it’s not that it’s too late but it’s but you’ve probably been compromised already. And so the question is what do we do from that point? Um and what you’d like to do is learn about it before you learn about it from a ransomware demand. Right? Because what’s what you’re worried about is that that compromise will eventually be exploited by what what Attackers are doing is exploiting systems and then putting in persistence meaning a way for them to stay connected to the environment. Once this vulnerability is patched. So if they’ve done that, once you patch the vulnerability, it doesn’t matter because their persistence is already there on the system. Right? So the next thing they do is exploit you by doing a ransomware attack or installing crypto miner software on your server or doing any of a dozen other things to leverage the resource that they have taken over and what you’d like to do is find out that they’re there and remove them before they notify you by sending you a ransom or notice.

[00:21:47.94] spk_2:
Okay, we need help.

[00:22:04.04] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you. Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward our contributors, you know them, I barely I don’t even have to say it right. You know, I have to honor them

[00:22:05.94] spk_2:
to give them tribute,

[00:22:20.34] spk_1:
but you don’t really need me to introduce them. You know that Jean is our legal contributor and that AMY is our technology and social media contributor, you know this and longstanding to boot

[00:22:22.64] spk_2:
jean.

[00:22:36.94] spk_1:
Gene has been with nonprofit radio and me Since the first several shows, it was 2010 kicked off the show in July 2010. And jean was on very soon

[00:22:40.44] spk_2:
after the very first show

[00:24:03.14] spk_1:
early, early early days, AMy sample ward joined at the 100th show. So that would have been July of 2012 50 shows a year. Mhm I’m grateful. You know, they take time each time they’re coming on. You know, they come up with the topics we we exchange messages about them talk a little bit sometimes, but you know, they’re doing the lion’s share of the work and then of course, you know, thinking about how best to explain it and then spending the time to explain it all valuable for you all great value for you. So I am grateful to them for so many years of contributing to nonprofit radio and helping you listeners. Our listeners thank you jean thank you amy That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got barely a butt load more time for nonprofit software vulnerability with Log four J. This week is short less time to get aware, more time to do the repair. And I’m gonna I’m gonna keep pushing this rhyme until I can’t stand to hear it anymore. Let’s continue.

[00:24:15.94] spk_2:
If you have an I. T. Devoted team, then certainly by the time that I’m playing this that that team must know that otherwise you need to fire your team and and get a new

[00:24:30.94] spk_3:
team if you have a if you have a cybersecurity, if you have someone who purports to be a professional information technology provider, right? Whether they are your own staff or whether they are an outsourced provider And they haven’t talked to you about log 4J. And what they’re doing about it then. I don’t believe that they’re serving you very well. I think that’s fair to say,

[00:24:40.54] spk_2:
okay, well we’ll leave it at that. Well let the ceo and executive directors deal with their C.

[00:24:47.85] spk_3:
IOS and

[00:25:13.64] spk_2:
uh I. T. I. T. Managers. Okay now I looked at the uh the cisa cisa again as the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. Um just for context. That’s that that’s the agency that Christopher Krebs came out of in the trump administration and said that 2020 presidential election was the most secure election in the nation’s history. That’s that’s

[00:25:16.31] spk_3:
system the cyber summarily fired but that’s a separate

[00:25:20.66] spk_2:
Yes, he was he was fired but he said yes,

[00:25:24.22] spk_1:
I’m trying to stay away from

[00:25:25.78] spk_3:
I’m a huge fan of So this is

[00:25:29.20] spk_2:
offered not for political purpose. This is offered for context.

[00:25:32.74] spk_3:
Yeah, for context. That is that is set to and there there I believe part of homeland security.

[00:26:13.94] spk_2:
Yes, they are part of the homeland Security agency. Yes. And they, you know, they’re the ones who said 10 out of 10. And in at a press release they said quote, this vulnerability poses a severe risk. They called it a severe risk, end quote. So you can go there, you can go to assistant dot gov and they have a page called Apache log four J vulnerability guidance. You can search that system dot gov. Apache log four J vulnerability guidance. Without me giving you full U R. L. Of the page. Just just search that and they have a couple of valuable links as

[00:26:16.37] spk_3:
well. And and we have links to all that from our website. So if you want to start at round table, just go to our website, search log four J. You’ll find our our blog which we update as we have updates and that has all the links in it as well

[00:26:34.34] spk_2:
and that is roundtable technology dot com if you want to follow Joshua, Joshua pes K.

[00:27:00.44] spk_3:
A. Y. Yeah. Although you’re better off following at round table I. T. I’m I’m not on social as a rule like a little thing but I really don’t touch twitter or facebook really. Ever so twitter or roundtables, twitter is at round table I. T. Um And that’s a better place to follow. That’s where you’ll that’s where you’ll get updates of things. You won’t get anything from following me because I don’t post to twitter hardly hell with Joshua pesky.

[00:27:03.63] spk_2:
Don’t follow at Joshua follow at round table I. T. If you’re following Joshua pesky unfollowed, you’re wasting your you’re hurting your follower,

[00:27:13.44] spk_3:
It’s a follower following it. And uh and I don’t I don’t even know if I get notifications if you try to dm me like that, you know if you want to contact me. It’s Joshua roundtable technology dot com. It’s very easy to find me that way.

[00:27:25.94] spk_2:
Alright. Don’t use twitter, you’re hurting your ratios unfollowed

[00:27:29.49] spk_3:
him. If you ever our apologies to all you social folks, I’m just not a social guy in that regard

[00:27:35.44] spk_2:
now you sound very sociable otherwise just

[00:27:37.52] spk_3:
not really. Yeah. In person on zoom over the phone incredibly social online. Unfortunately not so much.

[00:27:44.57] spk_2:
Okay. And humble as well,

[00:27:46.94] spk_1:
let’s go to

[00:27:52.64] spk_2:
Something that you have on January 27. You have a training coming up, tell us about

[00:30:09.64] spk_3:
that. Oh my gosh we have, it’s a mouthful. So I’ll spit it out the sixth, annual, best free one hour cyber security awareness training ever. My colleague Destiny Bowers, who is an absolute delight and also brilliant and who have worked with for a long time. She and I six years ago started doing awareness trainings with the goal of giving nonprofit organizations and small businesses an opportunity to get all of their staff cyber security awareness training at least once a year for free in a way that would be easily accessible for them, would be fun and would give them some incentives to for their staff to attend. So not only is the training free for literally your entire organization to attend, But we offer prizes over the course of our one hour training, so people have an opportunity to win up to $100. We give out typically $100 gift card, $50 gift card, $25 gift card and then we’ll give out other gift cards or, or prizes throughout the training. But at the end we do a quiz that is competitive. And so if you win the quiz, you have an opportunity to win $100. Uh and an amazon gift card is what we typically give out. And so you can tell your staff your, if you’re a nonprofit leader, hey everybody sign up for this, it’s gonna be a fun training Joshua and Destiny will try to make an entertaining, brisk and enjoyable and you have an opportunity to win prizes. And if you sign up with your organizational email, you know, uh, tony at my nonprofit dot org, then roundtable will actually send the organization a list of everybody that attended the training from their organization. So if you have a regulatory requirement that says, we have to train our staff, you know, with awareness training once a year, this can actually satisfy that regulatory requirement. If you’re in new york, new york shield law requires that you provide awareness training to your staff. So you can literally satisfy this regulatory requirement by having all of your staff attend this training, which again, is free and not only free, but you can tell your staff, hey, you can even win prizes by attending

[00:30:14.94] spk_2:
right. Win big prizes, free, epic, best ever training. More, more humility

[00:30:25.64] spk_3:
from Joshua, pesky. Yeah, again, the humility best ever. Yeah. And we say that every year because of course every year is is just a little bit better than the previous year. So it continues to be the best ever training until someone comes to us and says, you know, actually the training you guys did in 2019 was better than this one. So I don’t think this was the best ever, but no one you would, you

[00:30:47.74] spk_2:
would have the best you, they would be saying that you were one upped by yourself, there wouldn’t be any other,

[00:31:00.14] spk_3:
I I can’t conceive that there could possibly be any other training other than ourselves. I really feel like Myspace of best free one hour cyber security awareness training, I feel like we are really are our only competition. I

[00:31:12.04] spk_2:
hope you know what the word means. There’s a nod to, there’s a nod to Princess Bride inconceivable that there could be another another entity offering, offer anything offering anything comparable in cybersecurity. Alright, so where do we go for this damn thing?

[00:31:20.10] spk_3:
It is, I couldn’t make it any easier for you.

[00:31:22.87] spk_2:
It’s very simple.

[00:31:54.44] spk_3:
Go ahead. Best dot r t t as in roundtable technology dot N.Y.C. as in new york city doesn’t mean you have to be in new york city to attend anywhere in the world you can attend? So best dot r t t dot N.Y.C. If you go to that, you are l you’ll go right to our registration page and send it to all your staff again, have all of them sign up and you can all compete together and compete for prizes, have a good time getting awareness training and we, I love doing it, it’s sort of our gift to the nonprofit community to try to provide this training and make it fun and accessible for everybody and we’ve had so much fun, we keep doing it year after year.

[00:32:07.24] spk_2:
Is there a video, If folks cannot attend

[00:32:23.84] spk_3:
On January 27, sign up as with all things, then a recording will be sent to you the day after and you can take that recording and you can add it to your learning management system. If you have one too you know onboard your new staff whatever you want to do but of course you can’t win the prizes unless you attend the live strengthen

[00:32:28.84] spk_2:
you have to be like you have you must be must be present to

[00:32:32.14] spk_3:
win. Yeah

[00:32:32.67] spk_2:
win the big prizes in the in the epic best ever cyber security training. You’ll have to be present on january 27th 2022. At what time

[00:33:04.54] spk_3:
is one p.m. Eastern time? That’ll be 10 AM pacific time. That’ll be noon Central time if there is anyone out there on mountain time I don’t know where you’re at in regards to daylight savings. I forget if you’re on pacific time or Central time now so you figure that one out. If you’re on Mountain time, I’m sorry I wish I knew people

[00:33:12.74] spk_2:
will know people will be able to extrapolate hopefully from the Eastern time disclosure of of one p.m. eastern

[00:33:54.04] spk_3:
and we’ve even had organizations who we know nothing about you know who aren’t clients of ours reach out to us and say you know they found it on Youtube or whatever and they said can we you know use this recording for our on boarding package for our own staff or do we need to pay you or do you have rights or anything and then I’ll answer that question now for all of your listeners tony go ahead. Free take it, it’s yours. So if you sign up, you don’t attend live, you grab the recording, you chop it up and use it to onboard your new staff for the next year. That makes us super happy. Do it with our blessing. Don’t even have to tell us. Thank you. Okay,

[00:34:22.94] spk_2:
we’ve now spent as much time talking about the january 27th training as we have the subject of the podcast and the video, which is the log four j vulnerability for nonprofits. He’s Joshua pesky. They don’t follow him so I’m not going to repeat his, his twitter handle but follow roundtable at round table i. T. The company is at roundtable technology dot com. He’s Joshua pesky eh, thank you very much,

[00:34:23.61] spk_3:
Joshua tony thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure,

[00:34:26.81] spk_2:
my pleasure as well. Thanks so much.

[00:34:54.64] spk_1:
Next week Legal Outlook for 2022 with our Gene Takagi. If you’re not aware, you cannot repair if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. That’s the end of the aware repair rhyme scheme. It’s now ended

[00:35:31.84] spk_0:
our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that information scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for January 3, 2022: Social Media Outlook For 2022

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Charrosé King-Mathews: Social Media Outlook For 2022

Charrosé King-Mathews reveals what to look for in the New Year around platform evolution and content trends in the social networks. She’s an instructor in communications at Howard University.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:03.04] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:00:13.14] spk_1:
big nonprofit

[00:00:14.26] spk_3:
ideas for the

[00:01:42.34] spk_1:
Other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast Happy new Year. I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Lauren Jill papilloma ketosis if I had to say that you missed this week’s show Social Media Outlook for 2022 Sharos King Mathews reveals what to look for in the new year around platform evolution and content trends in the social networks. She’s an instructor in communications at Howard University. tony steak too. Lots of Good 2022 Wishes. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Here is social media outlook for 2022. It’s my pleasure to welcome for her first time Sharos King Matthews, she is a strategic communications instructor at Howard University where she’s also pursuing her PhD in communication culture and media studies. She researches and writes about rest and creativity as methods of resistance and healing. Share Jose just left the faculty of N 10 after five years. She’s at Sharos CK Sure Jose. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:48.94] spk_0:
Hi, it’s great to be here.

[00:02:02.94] spk_1:
Pleasure. I’m glad you are. I’m glad you are. But tell me tell us a little more about your your research and your writing on rest and creativity as methods of resistance and healing. What what what what does that work look like? What is that?

[00:02:05.89] spk_0:
So I am you know, starting out so I’m going to be discovering what that work looks like. But I’ve I’ve always been um very interesting.

[00:02:16.94] spk_1:
I’m sorry, what do you think it’s gonna look like? What do you hope

[00:02:35.04] spk_0:
it’s gonna look well where where I’m starting from is like um I’ve always been interested in in creativity and art and being able to express oneself through artistic mediums and helping other people to do that as well. Um and I think creativity is like a a huge social driver for for change. If we look at like music and art and fashion in the way that people are drawn into movements by the ways that we can use creativity in order to, you know, engage people and get them to think about different things. Um but also on the other side of that that you know, rest is so important to creativity. And looking at the ways that, you know, systems of oppression have stifled communities, abilities to produce creative work by with you know, low wages that require them to work, you know, constantly just to be able to afford a living and you know, um well in my case as a black woman having ancestors who are brought here specifically to work and how that has, you know, our relationships with work and and you know, as opposed to living in more creative and and pleasurable life and how we can, you know, move towards everyone being able to have those more um creative opportunities and how that can change our world for the better for everyone.

[00:04:14.14] spk_1:
Cool, All right. They’re they’re interesting tensions because you’re writing about rest and creativity. To me those are in opposite. I mean, you’re you’re you’re not you’re not at your most creative when you’re resting, creativity is, you know, is activity, stimulation and then and then rest. But then as methods of healing and resistance to me, those are in opposite to, you know, you I don’t they’re they’re, you know, they’re both they’re both critical, but I don’t see them as consistent. Like you when you’re healing yourself, you’re not in a resistance, you’re not in a resistance state state. Resistance to me is, you know, agitation

[00:04:23.78] spk_0:
and

[00:04:30.44] spk_1:
and and advocacy, you know, But that’s not that’s that’s in opposite to healing, right?

[00:04:31.15] spk_0:
Yeah. So it’s like I’m thinking like the balance of the two and how you you you know, need one to have the other and and that kind of thing and seeing how they are synchronous and you know, um I just I want people to everyone to have, you know, be able to live healthier, more fulfilling lives and, you know, all of that stuff

[00:05:12.24] spk_1:
healthy but also productive and resistant when needed. Absolutely, yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah. Like there’s it’s two different spectrums to me rest and creativity, healing and resistance interesting. Alright. This Yeah, I’ll be, look, I’ll look forward to your dissertation in how many years? How many years does this program take you, do you think?

[00:05:17.44] spk_0:
So. Typically about four. I will be finishing up my classes this year and then I’ll be focusing just on my um dissertation proposal and then my dissertation.

[00:05:44.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And research. All right, very good. Welcome. Alright. It’s glad to have you. So you’ve got some savvy ideas coming, coming out, coming off the n 10 faculty as well. So howard faculty and 10 faculty. Uh I’m not sure which is more prestigious. Well, you know, Well one is, one is prestigious in lots of respects and the other has its niche in nonprofit tech. So they’re both,

[00:05:50.89] spk_0:
they’re both prestigious. They’re both quite prestigious in

[00:06:08.04] spk_1:
their own. Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Um Not zero sum by any means. They can both be highly prestigious. So you’ve got some ideas around social media trends. What you see coming for 2022. What do you see happening with our social media platforms?

[00:06:11.84] spk_0:
Some things that I’m seeing are more audio only features um like on twitter on facebook, which would be great for people who listen to podcasts. Maybe that’s that fits in well. Um and even like um

[00:06:35.54] spk_1:
facebook is facebook is coming to audio only a little slow. I mean I’ve been I’ve been podcasting since 2000 10 where they’ve been, where they’ve been, where has facebook been

[00:06:40.13] spk_0:
has been around for a very long time has been around. Yeah.

[00:06:43.52] spk_1:
But where, where they they they’re coming late to the format.

[00:07:09.34] spk_0:
Yeah. And I think so. I think that happens like with technology sometimes we, we like jump ahead and it’s like sometimes we might lose things that were good before and we have to kind of rediscover them and they, they show up in a different way in in some ways, like we see here on, on like twitter and, and facebook also, Tiktok will be um, is working on streaming. Well, it’s released in, in some countries internationally, but it’s another example of, of a platform focusing more on audio only content. Um,

[00:07:24.84] spk_1:
wait, so, so Tiktok moving away from video,

[00:07:26.74] spk_0:
Not away by audio only also

[00:07:51.74] spk_1:
in addition. Okay, okay, Alright. So, alright, so let’s talk about this. This audio only trend. Then you’re saying facebook twitter, Tiktok uh, promoting audio only formats. What do you see? Non profits are able to do? I mean, how do you see leveraging that?

[00:07:53.64] spk_0:
Well,

[00:07:54.79] spk_1:
Like are they all short form like this, Tiktok, you know, like Tiktok audio format limited to 15 seconds.

[00:09:58.14] spk_0:
So on. I know, so each of them is, is a little different. Um, I know on, on twitter for example, you can have like, um, instead of like a live video that’s going on, you can have an audio room where people are chatting, anyone can listen in, but you know, only certain people can chat. So you might, that might be good for like, um, if you’re having a panel discussion or something like that and, and maybe video is not as important to it. Um and you can, you can do it that way, especially if you are uh you know, working, working virtually in people in different locations. Um video is not as important. That can be helpful and um also like when now they have a lot of different ways that they will appear on these different platforms. Um but I think as always, and I want to say this for for like all the transfer that we’ll talk about, you know, you want to think about how it works for your organization in particular because there’s they’re popping up with different features all the time. So you have to think about how, how do we best communicate with our audience. Um so I think, you know, in short form places you might, you might share like specific snippets of your podcast. If you have, if your, if your organization has a podcast, maybe you would share specific snippets or maybe particular quotes or updates that you could share like with the photo and then um like a message that goes along with that photo, which is also, I think the benefit of that is it’s a bit of a lower um you don’t need as much equipment or export technical, know how like you would need to do in order to create a video, you know, with the video, you need to to, you might need to do some editing or you might need to create some graphics, but if you have photos, you can use those in lots of different places and incorporate audio with them, you know, um, on certain posts to enhance the, the content.

[00:10:18.54] spk_1:
Okay, okay, very interesting. Audio, audio only. Do you, Do you envision that, that, that Tiktok audio only feature will still be limited to the, to the 15 seconds.

[00:11:16.34] spk_0:
Um I’m not, I didn’t, I don’t remember reading how long it would be um but okay, so, so Tiktok is also moving into like, because they use a lot of music and stuff on their platform. They’re also looking into Tiktok streaming, like having a streaming service that is a competitor to Spotify. Um and then you also have Spotify incorporating more social media into. There’s so you see a lot of, a lot of um, hybrid things happening um between between some of these like audio and social media in particular right now and I would say we did see this a lot with with video. I mean we had vine was huge and, and you know youtube, of course we still have Youtube. Um but a lot of these things are the things that we, we already used to communicate and they pop up in different ways depending on, you know, what features are available on how the different audiences communicate with one another. Um, on those different platforms.

[00:11:40.04] spk_1:
That’s interesting, you bring up vine, how come vine went away but tick tock. It is, it is, it’s flourishing.

[00:12:39.04] spk_0:
How come, what is that? Yeah, I know, I’m fine, it was right, so vine went away and instagram at that time started having short videos too. So it was like instagram kind of picked up that short video format and then vine, you know, wasn’t needed as much because you have, you have your photos and your video on instagram then, so then we lose vine, but we have olive vines, features on a different platform. Um and I think that’s something that we really want to think critically about when we’re looking at these trends and the different platforms that come up because there are a lot of politics behind it, you know, it’s something it’s, you know, which ones have the most money, like instagram is owned by facebook, so they have a lot more money and resources and facebook is everywhere all over the globe um you know, in, in nearly every country, whereas you know something um for as a, as a um you know, contrast, we have Tiktok which what has been threatened to be, you know, shut down in the US unless they, unless they, you know, sold part of their company to an american owner. So we have things like that that are going on in the background that, you know, we have to make um certain apps, you know, have more ability to reach more people. So it’s also, it’s about how we use them and whether they are service serving people’s needs and you know, that it’s fun to use and all of that, but also we need to think about, it’s not always just, um, the audience that determine which one is a successful platform.

[00:14:29.84] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, Your Communications Plan for 2022. Does it include social posts, blog posts, newsletters, your annual report, website updates, board reports, fundraising appeals. Acknowledgment messages, staff, communications, process documentation, training, documents onboarding or maybe those last couple don’t fit into your communications plan. They still have to be written. Do you need help with your writing in 2022 Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to social media outlook for 2022, does that mean that we should not be pioneers or even maybe early adopters when a, when a platform emerges, you know, that, that we not invest time in it when it may not, It may not survive? I mean like should we wait 18 months before we jump into a new platform?

[00:15:02.24] spk_0:
I that’s a really good question because I mean that’s what we’re talking about here, trends. We wanna know trend because we want to know how do we react to these new things. Um, and two that I, I would say like for if you’re a smaller nonprofit and I’ve worked at many, you know, you don’t have a lot of resources you want to, I would like to think of think of the social media, um, managing that as a, um, capsule wardrobe. So I don’t know if anyone familiar with the capsule wardrobe defined that we have, we have

[00:15:09.48] spk_1:
on non profit capsule wardrobe will definitely land you in jargon jail.

[00:17:48.74] spk_0:
So, right. So, and so a capsule wardrobe if you think of, so you can think, I think a great example is Fran fine on the nanny. She has a very, you know, dramatic wardrobe. However, if you pay attention, she’s pretty much always wearing a black turtleneck, black tights and black shoes and then she’ll put like a fun jacket or a fun skirt on top of those things. And, and so that’s um, you know, a way to extend a wardrobe on fewer, there are fewer pieces and just choosing like a statement piece. So the way I look at that is like, um, in with your social media, you want to have good bones, good structure. You wanna have, you wanna have some image templates that you can use. And then when there’s a, you know, I just talked about images before and putting audio with them. So if you already have great images that you’ve worked on and put a lot of care into curating, you can then add these other things on top of them as these trends change. Um, I would also say as far as new platforms coming up, I think it’s always worth your time to at least create an account so that if that platform becomes more popular in the future, you’ve already claimed your organization’s name on there. Um, so that it’s easy to find you and you, and it’ll be, you know, more cohesive part of your brand. So I think that’s always worth it because that doesn’t take a lot of time. Exactly. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. And that’s fine too. That’s fine too. Because you’re, you’re putting your time where, you know that your audience is and, and you know, what’s going to pay off because, you know, without a lot of time and resources, we have to be very smart about, um, where we’re putting our focus and social media because it’s so vast when you send stuff out, it can just go out into the ether and no one, you know, it might not get traction. So you need to be very smart about how you’re using your time. So I would say like, yeah, you’re right. So you have your, your core images and the kinds of messages that you know, that you can use. Um, also this might be referred to as evergreen content content that you can use all the time. Um, you know, no matter the time of year, but it’s always relevant to, to your organization. Um, I think that’s a very important thing to have in, in kind of your capsule wardrobe, um, of, of social media fashion, you know, your,

[00:18:30.84] spk_1:
your, your capsule wardrobe, your capsule wardrobe. Yes, I scolded your core capsule. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Um, well, I’m a guy, I want to be, you know, I want to be up. I want to be, I want to be timely. My, my time has long passed. Um, so, alright, Yes, absolutely, of course, evergreen content repurposing, you know, you want to be smart. You know, if something goes on your blog, maybe you can maybe you can pull a 12th, clip, an audio and quoted somewhere, you know, on twitter

[00:18:31.17] spk_0:
or facebook or, or,

[00:18:50.34] spk_1:
or, or Tiktok when, when the audio only features are, are, are available. Um, and then, you know, and then it could be part of, maybe it could be part of an email. Uh, maybe maybe it lives somewhere else on your website. You know, maybe it could be a social media post in print instead of audio. Um, right, so you want to be smart about

[00:19:01.84] spk_0:
right? And one um, uh, an acronym that I use for that, that I’ve heard is cope create once, publish everywhere. Okay, so like your blog post, you created it once. But then you’re using all those pieces of the blog posts in different places on your social media or your website and your blog and your emails and all of that.

[00:19:58.74] spk_1:
I love it create once, publish everywhere. So we got our capsule wardrobe. We have our, we have our cope. Okay, what? Um, all right, So this is interesting. This audio form. I mean obviously as a podcaster and I’ve been a longtime listener of radio and I think radio is just such a intimate format. It feels close. I mean, I got my inspiration for this show from radio shows. Um really interesting, you know, in one respect, it’s a, it’s a step back from, from the video because now you’re only getting really getting half the, not half the content really, but half the half the stimulation. I mean there’s the but but I don’t consider a step backwards, but but

[00:20:01.72] spk_0:
somebody, somebody could

[00:20:02.69] spk_1:
say, well, no picture anymore, what you know, but the video is the trending, but now, now now audio is trending.

[00:20:09.94] spk_0:
That’s why

[00:20:11.54] spk_1:
that’s why we need you on to make sense of this for

[00:20:14.27] spk_0:
us. For

[00:20:15.89] spk_1:
me, I’m not gonna maybe other people maybe more sad, but make sense of it for me please.

[00:21:19.44] spk_0:
So as you were talking, I was thinking, you know how you said like, radio can feel much more intimate than watching the video. And I it kind of reminds me of like reading a book versus watching a movie, the way you described it kind of like, and sometimes, you know, using our own imagination. And and with with the content that were there were there were reading or listening, using our own imagination. I think also helps us build a bond in some way. Whereas when you have a video, it’s like you don’t have to use your imagination, you can see what this person looks like and where they’re sitting and how they’re speaking and all of that kind of thing which I think takes away some of I think that’s part of like our creativity that makes us, you know, interested in having, you know, not knowing everything right away, you know? And and I um especially think like with audio, you know, you’re you’re very you’re not thinking about how you look, you’re just you’re just you’re just really um participating with the content,

[00:22:13.44] spk_1:
interesting. That reminds me of of a host I used to listen to on National Public Radio terry Gross. She she never wanted to be in the same studio as her guests, they always remote and and there was no camera feed. It would she she didn’t want the visual stimulation, she wanted to focus on the conversation and that’s it. She didn’t want the person in the room, she didn’t want to see them wherever they were, whatever studio they were in, she didn’t want to see them from there. It was just the conversation. Mhm interesting. Alright, of course I’m blowing, I’m blowing it here because I I can see you right now and we may put this on Youtube. Uh

[00:22:15.11] spk_0:
well you’re stuck with the lack of choice that people have the choice so to watch or or just listen,

[00:22:21.02] spk_1:
that’s true, you can turn your screen, you can turn off your screen absolutely, you could, you could go for the go for the creativity and, uh, and just listen,

[00:22:29.84] spk_0:
I guess it’s

[00:22:42.94] spk_1:
not so good to just watch though. That’s not gonna be good. Like don’t turn the sound down and try to read the lips that you’re, you’re missing, you’re missing too much content there, that I wouldn’t suggest doing it that way. All right. Um you think Tiktok is growing too, you have a, you have a prediction about Tiktok and instagram.

[00:24:08.44] spk_0:
Um, yeah, so I was reading this and I think, um, hoot suite that Tiktok is growing will surpass instagram um, in the number of active users. Um, and you know, that’s, I mean, we do see a lot of, a lot of the, you know, younger audiences on their like gen Z and stuff like that. Um, and, and I, and I was also reading about, um, okay, well, let me say so, I always want to be like, it’s great when companies can grow and it shows how popular they are. But I do also want to go back to, you know, what we just said about why certain platforms grow faster than others or might succeed where others don’t even though they have the same the same features, But, um, and so, and I start with Tiktok, um, and instagram and, you know, which one is popular is important for our organism, which one’s most popular is important. But we also want to look at where are our audience is in particular. So if you know that your audience is, you know, um this demographic, which is, you know, it’s um boomers who live in Arizona or, or whatever demographic it is, and it doesn’t, it’s not, you don’t see your audience on Tiktok, then it it doesn’t make um too much sense to go on there. But as we said, go and claim your account, make your space. So if you if it ever as the demographics change because that’s important to remember to demographics change over time. Um if we just look at facebook, for example, facebook was only open to university students. Um, so that was a very small demographic, but then it grew and grew. So, so we can see like these are where, where the numbers are for a moment. But that changes. And we can use that information to try to help make our decisions. But we should always remember that none of these are hard and fast rules. And we have to think about ourselves as the expert of our audiences and think about how social media is a tool to help us reach those people that that we know best

[00:25:17.84] spk_1:
and you’re good point, you know, knowing where they are and and knowing that that may shift as well, grandparents were not on facebook 15 years ago, but now it’s common. Well even before the pandemic for grandparents to stay in touch with grandkids through facebook. So,

[00:25:23.17] spk_0:
right. And, and a lot of my students do not use facebook anymore.

[00:25:28.01] spk_1:
Right, well their their grandparents around

[00:25:29.76] spk_0:
it, they don’t want exactly that’s going to look at pictures of your family and stuff, but not talk to your friends.

[00:25:36.74] spk_1:
Facebook is a perfect study in shifting demographics.

[00:25:39.69] spk_0:
That’s an excellent. Yeah, very interesting.

[00:26:26.34] spk_1:
The pioneers were driven off by the by, I think by their grandparents, they were alright, so if Tiktok Tiktok surpasses instagram, alright, so that it’s just, it’s just something I like to be aware of that Tiktok is growing in in audience size that way. And so it might be, might be a place for you to look. Um but maybe not, and we’re gonna get to the maybe not, you know, every right, every platform is not for everybody. Um but again, I love your advice about, you know, claim your claim your spot, get an account in your name, so nobody, nobody beats you to it and then you have to be creative or You know, be Tony-Martignetti two or something, you know,

[00:26:29.19] spk_0:
because

[00:26:38.74] spk_1:
they were the real tony-martignetti you know, All right, so let’s talk about creating, creating content this emerging short form audio

[00:30:11.64] spk_0:
with creating content and especially with short form, I think that’s definitely, you know, a challenge for a lot of social media accounts for a lot of our organizations, especially those that do very complex, you know, work and we want to communicate about it, but you know, this very brief, um, these very brief formats make it very difficult and I always try to emphasize with my colleagues and and reminding myself that social media is a place to direct people to more information. So like, yes, those clips are very short. But you want to make sure you’re using that to direct people where they can get more information. Words, you know, whether it’s, you know, signing up volunteers or donations or or what do you want them to do after? Well, and always have some kind of idea of what you of um, what each of your posts are doing for you. So you don’t wanna, you know, just put any kind of content out there. You have 15 seconds or, or however short the clip is and you want to make sure that you’re, you’re, you know, getting the most out of your time. So, um, when you are like, again, we will go back to the capsule wardrobe, making sure you have those solid foundations, creating some, some graphics that you can reuse. Um, but also, you know, look at what your, your peers um, uh, similar organizations are doing also what your audience is sharing, even if it’s not, you know, specific to your organization, you can see what your audience is interested in and how they are spending their time. Um, I often, you know, in my, in the course that I was doing with the intent, I would often talk about thinking about walking through the day in your audience in any of your audience members shoes and thinking about how are they spending their morning? You know, is that a good time to reach them and, you know, what kind, what are they doing in the morning and how might, you know, your work relate to that in some way. Like if somebody, you know, spends their morning, you know, watering their garden and you are, um, you know, an environmental organization and how you can um kind of show that you have common interests there and relating to what they’re interested in. So looking at looking at what what they are already interested in, but also looking at what some of your competitors and, and similar organizations to yours are doing, and, you know, identifying not just looking at what they’re doing and copying them, but looking at what they’re doing, identifying what works and what doesn’t, and also how you can put a spin on things for, for your brand, um, you know, there’s, there’s a quote, like good artists copy great artists steal that. So, so we want to, so it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, perfectly legitimate to look at what other companies are doing and and try them um, in your own way. Another thing is there’s nothing new under the sun, So all of these ideas are we’re regenerating and, and recreating and which is creativity, you know, thinking of these things from all these different places and they come together to make new things. Um, so when you’re thinking about about your content and how to make it, you know, engaging. You want to go back to the things, think less about the technology and think more about, you know, the very essence of good storytelling and, and you know what makes a good photo making sure that they’re good quality and all of those things can will take you a lot farther than thinking about um friends and and styles because they change so quickly.

[00:31:48.34] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. Yes. You have my good wishes for 2022 for the new year. I’m I’m always optimistic at the beginning of the new year. Even when all evidence maybe to the contrary. I still, I don’t know. Uh Pollyanna naivete, blissful ignorance. I I don’t know. But every year I’m optimistic. So I’m optimistic about the new year. And you have my good wishes For your 2022 for you, your family, your work, your nonprofit, all those, all those things that are important. I hope 2022 is very good to you for all of those things in all those different ways. That’s it. My good wishes for the new year. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo. But loads more time for social media outlook for 2022. Alright, that was a lot of excellent. So let’s start with calls to action. You want, you want, you want every piece of content to have some call to action, learn, learn more volunteer, donate, sign the petition.

[00:31:53.34] spk_0:
Even if it’s not a direct call to action, like, you know, sign up. Even if it’s, but even if you know the purpose like, okay, we are interacting with this audience member in order to, you know, build a better um relationship with our audience. Always make sure that that you know why you’re posting and you’re not just spending time sending things out because that’s that’s where you start to, you know, sink all your time into something that might not be paying off

[00:32:51.44] spk_1:
and in in short form audio. I mean if you want folks to go somewhere, maybe two learn more or you know, if there is an explicit call to action, learn more at a landing page, maybe you’re testing the, the, the outcomes so you have a landing page or whatever it is. Short form audio that you have to devote part of your 15 seconds to reading a web address.

[00:33:47.34] spk_0:
So with the, the short form audio, it’s always going to be um in a place they’re gonna have to be looking at something to click on it or have some kind of text with it in order to like it’ll come up in their feet or something like that. So whatever description um or you know, sometimes you, I mean in most places you can comment even beneath yourself. So wherever you see any opportunity to put in that information um is important um to do that. But as far as you know with audio as well, I think it’s also sometimes I see um and that’s actually not, this is audio and text but sometimes I’ll see like very long you RL’s um and I think it’s important to remember to use a U. R. L shorter I think um definitely. And when you’re doing audio, whether you know short for more or a little longer and you want to include a U. R. L. Make sure that you use like um Bentley dot com or something where you can customize it to be something easy to remember and you don’t have to say http excuse, you know, all of

[00:35:08.84] spk_1:
that. Uh I like to go even further. I have, I bought the the vanity domain, you know, tony dot M. A. So I could do tony through M. A. I think is Morocco. I’m pretty sure I bought that. I think I’m every two years I paid the country of Morocco I think I’m pretty sure that’s M. A. Um it’s not Mauritania, I think it’s more, I’m pretty sure it’s Morocco. So yeah, so tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant I can say, you know, non profit radio uh email sign up, you know whatever whatever. Alright so that may be worth investing in a little vanity vanity shorter too but but bitterly of course we like. Yeah, I like free resources. Absolutely. Um and then you mentioned peers, you know, evaluating what your peers are doing, what others see what other nonprofits are doing. So you mean literally looking at there at their feeds and and, and different platforms and see what they’re talking about and how they, how

[00:35:35.64] spk_0:
they talk, yep. And so you should definitely be following your pure organizations. Um, there are also a great resource for creating content. Not just, you know, if you, um, work together sometimes on on a shared project, um, you can help boost each other’s visibility on social media. But you do want to be following following your peer organizations also, you know, as a social media manager. Um, you tend to befriend the other social media managers because you know, you said, you know what other each other are going through. And so that’s actually a great community and um, following each other because then you can reach out to each other. Help. Help because you’re you’re in it for the, for the same cause. So it’s like you’re boosting the same content and and you know, helping achieve your mission overall that both of you want to achieve.

[00:36:27.33] spk_1:
That could even lead to some deeper collaboration. Maybe, you know, I’ve, I’ve had guests talk about the possibility of uh, like doing giving Tuesday, you know, combined campaigns. Mm hmm I don’t remember other examples, but but you know, just shared promotion. Pre shared projects, your promotion

[00:36:38.43] spk_0:
and one of the ones that I’ve had the most success with as far as partnership and shared promotion is um well I don’t see them as much anymore, but for a time there were twitter chats were pretty popular. Um I don’t see them as much as I used to, but whenever I’ve done them, I we would always get like tons more engagement um with our content. That was one of our I will put that on twitter chats and and tweeting at conventions. That is when we would get the most followers, the most retweets the most engagements generally. Um and now I’m thinking, you know, with the twitter um audio rooms and stuff like that. That could be instead of having a twitter chat where you’re typing it out, maybe you have people come in and listen to your panel discussion of experts talking about whatever the theme is and um introducing people to, to your brand that way.

[00:37:32.13] spk_1:
Cool. Excellent ideas. All right. You recommended paying attention to what your audience shares. Mm hmm. So you know what you want to you want to do more of what’s popular and less of what people think? Sucks. Right.

[00:38:48.32] spk_0:
So, um yeah, so, well, before I was a lecturer at Howard, I worked in the office of the Vice President for student Affairs and I was managing the social media there. Um and the school environment especially important to watch what your audience is saying because we didn’t need to watch for any problems that are coming up and stuff like that. Um but that’s the kind of thing I think you you want to look for generally and not just you know, problems um not doesn’t have to be something dire, but you know, what is, what is your audience concerned about that your organization can help answer and um you know, what are the problems that they encounter or the ways that see that they that they feel the issue that you cover, how that impacts their lives. So sometimes it might be looking at, you know exactly what they’re posting, exactly what they’re saying and sometimes it means more about like you know looking at overall and kind of observing, you know what you um you might even notice like challenges and things that come up that that your audience does not. Um but you can perhaps you know show how your work can help with these things that they may not even notice our issues um relating to your organization.

[00:39:06.62] spk_1:
What about the use of analytics to uh to evaluate what what your what your folks are sharing is that can that be valuable there?

[00:41:00.61] spk_0:
Absolutely. You should definitely be um keeping track of your analytics if you so if you don’t have a dedicated person who can look at the analytics every month, you at least want to be downloading them. So you have them um whenever I have started a new position as a social media manager. one of the first things that I do is to go to, um, all of those social media accounts and download as much of their um, analytical history as I possibly can. So if you’re already keeping and, and the thing is some platforms that you can’t go back any farther than a couple of years or a couple of months. So it’s very important to get that right away. Um, even if you can’t look at it consistently, because one day if you, if you do have someone who’s able to dedicate time to that, they have tons of content to go on where they can look at, you know, oh, we had a huge jump in in subscribers um, at this time and then they can go and look at, well, you know, what was going on at that time, What did we post? What was drawing in so much engagement? And so that’s why you really, um that’s why your your analytics are so important and it’s thus about like looking through them every day. Or I’m sorry, every month or so, um, because you know, if you don’t have a dedicated person for that, that takes a lot of time. But being familiar with, you know, around how many followers you have or being able to see the trend of, you know, what is normal engagement for us. So that then you can see when you do have a huge spike, you’ll be easily able to identify like oh here’s where that came from and here’s how we can duplicate that success also because that’s another thing you want to think about. How can we do this again? Um how can we use it for a different campaign or or in what other ways can we can we benefit from you know this content that we that did so well

[00:41:05.01] spk_1:
which are the platforms that you think have the better analytics.

[00:42:49.90] spk_0:
I definitely have opinions about that. Twitter, Twitter has great analytics um you will find so in um in a lot of communications scholarship like peer review journals and stuff when they’re when they’re talking about social media they will often use twitter twitter analytics because they’re the easiest to access. So twitter makes it very easy to to download all of your analytics from your account and put it in an Excel spreadsheet and then from there you can do whatever you want to do with it. Um there are on the on the other end I would say like for example instagram you cannot you have to go to like each individual post and see how many how many had right? So you have to type them in and yeah so and and that that allows um face meta now meta to have you know um more control over that content. Um The facebook analytics I are pretty good but again they are there, you kind of have to keep them within facebook Um So it’s harder to you know take them out and analyze them in different ways. So any platform that’s going to allow you to download them in an Excel spreadsheet is ideal. Um But you know sometimes I have had to go through and I’m writing typing them in individually from instagram. So and and that could that could also you know be a factor in deciding which platforms that you spend most of your time on because you know if you if you are focusing on if you make if you want to focus a lot on your analytics you wanna and and you want to have a platform where you can easily download them and it doesn’t take a lot of extra work. Um So you know these are all things to think about when you’re when you’re deciding you know what works best for for how you present on social media.

[00:43:15.50] spk_1:
What’s another one that’s good besides twitter Analytics one judging the analytics.

[00:43:20.00] spk_0:
I mean I do I like facebook uh the analytics that they that the way that they’re analytics

[00:43:27.47] spk_1:
are in the

[00:44:20.59] spk_0:
classroom right? You can’t export them. So um I’m thinking I mean for the most they tried there so you can I would also recommend. So I don’t know of twitter is the best ones, I don’t know of any other other ones don’t really compare to that but yeah but twitter is also starting to lock down um some of that like it’s not quite as much um data as you could get it before so um but there’s also you know platforms where like Hoot suite for example where you can have multiple social media platforms and see your analytics aggregated there. I do caution though that when you use um you use one of those platforms um the numbers might be a little bit different like there might be like some lag time between you know twitter and twitter on Hoot suite you know so um and also like the labels and the way that data is is labeled so you know on one platform a certain action might be called interactions whereas on another platform they’re called engagements and how they measure each of those things and what they’re called could could be different. So it’s just you know making sure we’re watching for those.

[00:44:52.69] spk_1:
Why would like a twitter start restricting the the robustness of the of the analytics the way you just said they’re they’re they’re tightening that up. Why would they why would they offer less?

[00:45:01.29] spk_0:
You want to charge for it? You want to start

[00:45:03.45] spk_1:
charging a fee to get it or

[00:45:29.19] spk_0:
you know what that’s and you know we we don’t know until they until it’s public. So that is 11 thing that could, I’m I haven’t um I’m not sure why it’s more difficult to get information but you know it’s beneficial to companies you know that information is money to them. So it is beneficial to them when they, you know, have proprietary um keeping content that that is valuable to them. I would um but twitter,

[00:45:43.49] spk_1:
they could have it too and share it with us too. I mean they’re they’re only sharing it with users. Users can only get there there little bit. The company is welcome to aggregate the hundreds of millions of users. They can do whatever you want with your proprietary data. But let me have my little share what are you taking in the era of transparency? What are you taking my little share away for?

[00:45:57.29] spk_0:
You would think, But I don’t know. All

[00:46:36.38] spk_1:
Right. You don’t have all the answers. Nobody does know these black boxes that we’ve all signed onto 2020 years. Sometimes they’re more annoyance than than than than additive but sometimes not not, I’m not, not saying I’m I’m opposed to social media obviously, but they can be very annoying, very annoying. We don’t even, we could spend a whole hour talking about facebook or a day about the annoyances behind facebook and in the shift from organic to paid, it’s just to me it’s just corporate green. All right.

[00:46:39.48] spk_0:
But I think a lot of that is, you know power from the users and putting it back in the hands of the company because users do have so much power and we have a lot of their ideas come from the users that are using the platforms. So I think it’s, you know, wanting to control how, how people use that platform and the information that you can get from it.

[00:46:59.28] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean,

[00:47:03.77] spk_0:
it’s

[00:47:28.88] spk_1:
exploitation. I mean, I’ll use, I’ll use facebook the most egregious example as, as the example, but you think goaded us all in, you know, they have 2.5 billion users now, a third of the planet is they, they brought us in and then they, and then they shepherd uh, you know, much less organic reach now. You want the same organic, you want the same reach, add pay for it, pay for it, pay us pay Goldman Sachs and uh, and you can have that, we have your reach back that we gave you originally and you know, it’s, it’s egregious. It’s uh, just exploitation.

[00:47:43.38] spk_0:
And I, I feel like social media has so much power for bringing people together and, and so that’s why I caution about like with trends and stuff we do need to be critical about, you know, is this trend, was this trend created because it’s something users wanted or because the company needs to innovate and grow. You know, so that’s another reason why you can wait and give yourself some time to see which trends are taking on and what makes sense for you because you don’t want to just be throwing your your time into this machine that is just there to make money for them. You want to make sure that you’re getting the best value out of that,

[00:48:37.77] spk_1:
what a beautiful segue to, to a closing section, let’s talk about, you know, every every platform is not for every non profit you know, you’ve you’ve made the point already, you know, you can uh squat on your account, you create your account and just and just squat it, hold it, but but every, you know, even the bigger platforms, we don’t have to be everywhere.

[00:48:42.07] spk_0:
Exactly, so,

[00:48:43.29] spk_1:
you know,

[00:50:17.66] spk_0:
you definitely right, so there are like you and this is something I say in my class to like in learning about social media and there’s constantly new stuff, you do not have to know everything about it, you do not have to be on every platform, your audience is not on every platform, no single person can manage all of the social media accounts that their social media platforms that there are. So I think the most important thing, you know, is to get back to that good structure and knowing who your audience is and um how to communicate with them and then, you know, using the different quirks of those social media accounts and different features to, to tweak that, but um as far as, you know, you might also want to think of as we’re talking about, you know, these big companies and what data they’re keeping and control and stuff like that, that might also be an a factor in deciding which platforms you’re on like um, back to N 10. Um, and 10 is no longer on Facebook because you know, the, some of the business practices that Facebook has used do um, do not, you know, does not work well with end transmission and the ways that they operate and you know, those are things you have to weigh that. Um, you know, if a lot of your, your audiences on facebook and that’s the only way to reach them, then maybe, you know, you do stay, but you know, you have this understanding of like um, that there are issues and were working around them and trying to make the best of these environments, but you know, they are businesses and so we need to be smart about where we’re spending our time.

[00:51:22.46] spk_1:
Excellent advice, very savvy. Thank you. All right. Sharos King Matthews, you’ll find her at narrows A C K. I’m gonna spell her name so you can find her C H A R R O S C King, Thank you very much. Great, great advice. Thank you my pleasure Next week, the log for j software vulnerability with Joshua pesky, eh, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. It may be a new year, but some things never change. Our creative producer is

[00:51:23.54] spk_3:
claire Meyerhoff shows. Social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is

[00:51:28.24] spk_1:
our web guy

[00:51:41.66] spk_3:
and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out

[00:51:43.14] spk_1:
and be

[00:51:53.36] spk_3:
great.

Nonprofit Radio for December 20, 2021: Zombie Loyalists

My Guest:

Peter Shankman: Zombie Loyalists

Peter Shankman is a 5x best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book “Zombie Loyalists” focuses on customer service; creating rabid fans who do your social media, marketing and PR for you. This is our annual rebroadcast of a show with very smart ideas for you to think about over the holidays. It originally aired 12/19/14.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:04.14] spk_3:
Hello

[00:00:52.94] spk_2:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of Brome Hydro sis if I had to walk through the idea that you missed this week’s show. Zombie Loyalists. Peter Shankman is a five time best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book, Zombie Loyalists, focuses on customer service, creating rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. This is our annual rebroadcast of a show with very smart ideas

[00:00:57.71] spk_1:
for you to think about

[00:01:19.84] spk_2:
over the holidays. It originally aired December 19, Antonis, Take two Thank you for the year We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is a zombie loyalists.

[00:02:41.54] spk_1:
Peter Shankman is a well known and often quoted social media marketing and public relations strategist. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists. He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. He’s got super ideas and very valuable stories. I’m very glad Peter Shankman is with me in the studio. He is the founder of Haro. Help, a reporter out connecting journalists with sources in under two years from starting it in his apartment. Horror was sending out 1500 media queries a week to more than 200,000 sources worldwide. It was acquired by Vocus in 2010. He’s the founder and CEO of the Geek Factory, a boutique social media, marketing and PR strategy firm in New York City. Peter is on NASA’s civilian Advisory Council. You’ll find him at Shanklin dot com, and he’s at Peter Shankman on Twitter. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists, using great service to create rabid fans. I’m very glad his book brings him to nonprofit radio and the studio Welcome, Peter. Good to be here, honey. Thanks Pleasure. You, um, live on the West Side of Manhattan And you and you. There’s a there’s a pretty well known five star steakhouse. I’ll get Wolfgang’s not far from you,

[00:02:44.54] spk_0:
but you pass

[00:02:45.28] spk_1:
it to go to a different steakhouse. Correct? Morton’s correct. Why is that?

[00:04:33.94] spk_0:
I am a zombie loyalist to Morton’s. What does that mean? I, uh love the service, the attention to detail, the quality, the the sort of where everyone knows my name mentality. When I walk into that Morton’s or any Morton’s around the world, they have a tremendous, uh, customer relationship management system. When I call one number, uh, in New York or anywhere in the world, it they know who I am by my cell phone. And, uh, I’m treated with just, you know, phenomenal, uh, happiness to to hear from me and my wishes are granted as it were. I we have a happy hour holiday party coming up at Morton’s next couple of days. And, you know, as always, I forgot to call and make a reservation. And, you know, I called yesterday and said, Hey, I need a, uh, she has to get a reservation for seven people. Um, you know, Thursday night at seven p.m. Which is, you know, the week of the holiday party, and, uh, they looked and they said, Oh, well, and then I guess their computer system kicked in. Of course, Mr Shank, not a problem at all. We’ll get the frame and we you know we’ll have. We’ll have a great booth for you that, um, you know, and we’ll we’ll tell us the names of people attending and, you know, you know, you know, they’re gonna have specialized menus for them and their names on they Really, they have a really high level of service that they provide, not just to me. That’s the beauty of it. You know, it’s one thing, everybody. Yeah, it’s one thing that they just provided to me, but they do that for everyone. And that is huge because, you know, being able to call when a normal person makes reservation. And not that I’m special. I’m actually rather abnormal. But when a normal person makes a reservation and says, Uh, no, Martin says. Okay, great. Are you celebrating anything? So, yeah, it’s my wife’s birthday that’s always asked to anyone who calls. I said, Oh, you know what? It’s my wife’s birthday. Great. What’s her name? And her name is Megan. Whatever. And you go in and they and you sit down on the on the on the menu. It says, Happy birthday, Make it. And then Megan, whoever she happens to be, we’ll spend the next 45 minutes, you know, taking 50 selfies with her menu and and that will go online. And when her friends, you know, want that same experience, they’re going to go Morton’s,

[00:05:04.54] spk_1:
you say, uh, in in the book, you get the customers you want by being beyond awesome to the customers you have. And that’s why I wanted to start with that Morton story, which is in the middle of the book. But they do it for everybody, and then they have the V. I. P. S as well. And there’s the terrific story of you tweeting tell that story. That’s a good story. It’s

[00:07:24.54] spk_0:
a good story. I love stories. I was flying home from a day trip to Florida and was exhausted and starving, and they trip meeting you’re flying down and slow down at six a.m. At a lunch meeting, flew back the same day. You know, one of those one of those days, and I jokingly said, the tweet Hey, Morton’s, why don’t you meet me at Newark Airport when I land with a porterhouse in two hours? Ha ha ha ha ha. Um, you know, I said it the same way you’d say, Hey, winter, please stop snowing. Things like that and I landed. Uh, find my driver and sit next to my driver is a, uh is a waiter in a tuxedo with the Mortons bag. They saw my tweet. They put it together. They managed to bring me a, uh, a steak and, you know, as great of a story as it is, it’s that’s that’s it’s a great stunt and it’s a great story and it wasn’t stage, and it was completely amazing. But, you know, that’s not what they’re about. They’re not about delivering states airports. They’re about making a great meal for you and treating you like world when you come in. And you know, if they just did that, if they just delivered the state of the airport, but their quality and service sucked, you know, it wouldn’t be a story because, you know, you know what they did for Peter. But, you know, my steak is cold. So what it really comes down to is the fact they do treat everyone like kings. And that’s that’s really, really important, because what ends up happening, you have a great experience importance. And then you tell the world you know Oh, yeah, Great dinner last night. that was amazing. I would totally eat there again. And as we move to this new world where you know, review sites are going away and I don’t I don’t need to go to yelp reviews from people I don’t know. You know, if they’re shills or whatever the case may be, I don’t know. Or trip Advisor. Same thing. I want people in my network quite trust and and people in their network who they trust by default, I trust. So that’s gonna be that’s already happening automatically. You know, when I when I land in L. A and I type in steakhouse, uh, you know, not me. I know, I know where the steak house in l. A. But if someone types into Google Maps or Facebook Steak House in Los Angeles, you know they’ll see all the steak houses on Google map. But if any of their friends have been to any of them, they’ll see those first. And if they had a good experience, only if the sentiment is positive. Well, they see those first. And that’s pretty amazing, because if you think about that, the simple act of tweeting out of photo Oh, my God. thanks so much. Martin’s love this. That’s positive sentiment. The network knows that. And so if you’re looking for a steakhouse, you know, and your friend six months ago, I had that experience. Oh, my God. Amazing state. This is a great place. There’s a the sentiment’s gonna be there. And and And the network will know that network will show you that steakhouse because you trust your friend.

[00:07:25.84] spk_1:
And this is where we start to cultivate zombie loyalists. Exactly. Through this awesome customer service of the customers, you you have to say more about

[00:08:22.64] spk_0:
zombie. I mean, you have so many companies out there who are trying to get the next greatest customer. You know, you see all the ads, you know, the Facebook post. You know, We’re at 990 followers are 10 are 1000. Follower gets a free gift. Well, that’s kind of saying screw you to the original 990 followers who you had who were there since the beginning. We don’t care about you. We want that 1000 you know, that’s not cool. Um, the the the companies who see their numbers rise and you see their fans increase and their their, um um revenues go up are the ones who are nice to the customers they have. Hey, you know, customer 8 52. It was really nice of you to join us a couple months ago. How? You know, how are you? We noticed that you posted on something about a you know, your car broke down. Well, you know, we’re not in the car business, but, you know, your your two blocks from our our closest outlet or whatever. And you know, if you if you need to come in, have a cup of coffee when I use the phone, Whatever. You know, those little things that you can do that that that really focus on the customers you have and make the customers. You have the ones who are the zombies who tell other customers how great you

[00:08:35.54] spk_1:
are. And this all applies to non profits, certainly as well in

[00:09:12.94] spk_0:
the system. But even more so, I mean, if you you know, non profits are constantly worried about how to how to make the most value out of their dollar and how to keep the dollar stretching further and further, and you know you have this massive audience who has come to you, who is a non profit? Who said to You know, we want to help here we are volunteering our help and just simply treating them with the thanks that they deserve, not just as simple. Hey, thanks for joining us, but actually reaching out, asking what they want, asking how they like to get their information. Things like that will greatly increase your donations as well as, um, making them go out and tell everyone how awesome you are and letting them do your PR for you. And

[00:09:17.22] spk_1:
that’s what a zombie loyalist does. And this is for this. Could be donors could be volunteers organization who aren’t able to give a lot. But giving time is enormous.

[00:09:25.27] spk_0:
And if you know if they have such a great time doing it, they’ll bring friends

[00:09:29.84] spk_1:
as zombies.

[00:09:49.84] spk_0:
Do you know zombies have one purpose in life? A. Real zombies have one purpose in life that’s to feed. It doesn’t matter. How the Mets are doing it doesn’t matter, you know, because chance that they lost anyway. But it doesn’t matter how, how anyone is doing, you know, or what’s going on in the world and any kind of bad. It doesn’t matter what matters with zombies. Where are they gonna get their next meal? Because they feed and they have to infect more people. Otherwise they will die zombie loyalists to the same thing. All they have to do is make sure that their customer, they tell the world, and we all have that friend who does it. You know that one friend who eats nothing but the olive garden because oh my God’s greatest breadsticks everywhere, you know and they will drag your ask the olive garden every single time they get that chance. That’s a zombie loyalist,

[00:10:04.75] spk_1:
and you want them to do that for your nonprofit, and there’s a big advantage to being a smaller, smaller organization. You could be so much more high touch, and we’re gonna talk about all that. We got the full hour with Peter Shankman. Gotta go away for a couple of minutes, stay with us.

[00:10:35.54] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You’re 2022 writing. Do you have time to do all the projects that you need to do? Like social posts and blog posts, newsletters and annual report Web updates board reports, fundraising appeals and acknowledgment messages. What about your staff Communications? What about your process? Documentation? What about training and on boarding documents?

[00:10:51.74] spk_1:
Do you need help with writing

[00:10:53.52] spk_2:
In 2022?

[00:10:55.64] spk_1:
I mean, you can talk to them about

[00:11:24.24] spk_2:
2023, but that seems premature. But if you need help in 2022, with all your projects talk to turn to, they can create the content for you. They’ll get to know your tone and your messaging. They’ll create in your voice, turn to communications. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to zombie loyalists.

[00:11:27.44] spk_1:
Peter, it doesn’t take much to stand out in the customer service world, does it?

[00:11:52.24] spk_0:
It really doesn’t, you know. And the reason for that is because we expect to be treated like crap. You know, if you think that I I I love this example. Whenever I give speeches, I asked, I asked everyone the audience I’m like who here has had a great flight recently, Like at least one person raised their hand. I’m like, Okay, what made it great and without fail. And I said, Well, we took off on time and I had the seat I was assigned and we landed on time. And so you paid for a service. They delivered that service and you’re over the freaking moon about it. Like that’s the state that we’ve become. You know, that’s how bad customer service has been that you are just beyond thrilled that they did exactly what they said they were gonna do it. Nothing more.

[00:12:05.51] spk_1:
Less than 20 minutes in the post office line.

[00:12:24.44] spk_0:
And I’m ecstatic Exactly. You know, it’s so we really are at a point where we only have to be one level above crap. I’m not even asking my client to be good. Just one level of crap. You know, if everyone else’s crap and you’re one level above that, you’re gonna win. It’s my favorite. One of my favorite jokes. Um, the two guys are out in the woods hunting in the woods and or just jogging and was the first one sees a bear and they see these bearings bears raised and he’s about to strike. And the first one reaches down and tightens up his laces on his running shoes and see what the studios don’t be. Don’t be. Don’t be an idiot. You can’t outrun a bear because I don’t need to. I just need to outrun you. You know, I love that joke because it’s it’s so true. That’s the concept. You know, all you have to do is be just a little bit better than everyone else and you’ll win the whole ballgame.

[00:12:50.14] spk_1:
Now we have to set some things up internally in order to have the structure in place to create these The zombie loyalists.

[00:16:14.14] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you have a you have a company where the majority of people in your company are afraid to do anything outside the norm, you know? I mean, look at look at the cell phone company. You know, they call them cause you have a problem, right? 18 T or T mobile. You call them, you have a problem. They are actually the customer service people to handle your caller, actually judged and rewarded based on how quickly they can get you off the phone. You know, not on whether or not they fix your problem, but how fast they can get you off the phone. Which means how many more? Cause I remember I worked when I worked in America Online. We all had to do a day of customer service every month just to see what it was like. That was a brilliant idea. But, you know, again, it was a system called Vantive, where you’d sign on and as soon as you signed on, if you want to call, you know, that was tacked against you. And if you were in a call and and it went over a certain amount of time, that was tacked against you, So the decks were stacked Not in the favor of the customer. There are some companies out there who allow their customer service employees to simply be smarter about what they do and do whatever it is they need to do to fix the problem. Um, you know, my favorite story about this Verizon, uh, wireless. I went overseas as in Dubai, and I landed to buy and I turned on my phone. I had gotten global roaming on my phone, Which, you know, $20 for every 100 megabytes. Okay, so I land and I turn on my phone and it says, um, like before I’m even off the plane. I get a text that you’ve used $200 in roaming charges on what the hell you know, $300 by the time I get off the plane. Like something’s up here. So I called Verizon and a nice guy answer the phone and Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, the first thing that was Yes. So you do have global roaming, but it doesn’t work in Dubai, I’m like, Okay, well, that’s not really global. That’s more hemispherical. Roaming, I think is the issue. And so the, uh I said, Well, look, I’m gonna be here for a week. I said, you know what? You have my credit card on file build me like I don’t know. Can you give me, like, 1000 bucks and just let me have the phone for, like, the week? And you know, daddy, you know, 500 bucks, I won’t go over two gigs. Would just do something for me. Sorry, sir. I’m not authorized to do that. Um, you can. I’m like, So what do I have? He’s like, Well, you can pay $20.48 a megabyte. I’m like, I’m sorry. Seriously, which equates essentially two. I will be charged $20.48 seconds, $20 or 48 cents for every I think at the time was for every four seconds of the video Gangnam style, if I decided to watch on my phone Like this is pretty ridiculous. So I simply hung up, hung up on Verizon. I went down the street to do by the mall of the Emirates, which is the largest mall in the world, has a freaking ski slope in it. And I’m not joking. It has a ski slope in the small and, uh, went to one of the 86 different electronic stores in this mall. Uh, but an international unlocked version of the same exact cell phone I have went next door to the local SIM card store, bought a SIM card that gave me 20 gigabytes of data and 1000 minutes of talk for $40. I then put that in my phone because it’s an android phone. I simply typed in my user name and password for Google and everything imported, and Verizon did not get a penny on that trip. Um, how easy would have been for Verizon to say Okay, you know what? We’ll cut your brake uh, they still make a lot of money off me. And I would tell the world how great Verizon was to work with and how wonderful, how helpful they were. Instead, They guaranteed that I will never they will never make a penny for me on any international trip. And I take, what, 15 of them a year. Because now my cell phone, um, my international cell phone that I bought all I do is pop out the SIM card in my land. Wherever I am, put in a new SIM card. So

[00:16:14.85] spk_1:
and you’re speaking and writing and telling bad

[00:17:32.54] spk_0:
stories, Of course. And and every time I tell the story about Verizon, I make it a little worse. Apparently, Verizon, uh, tests out the durability of their phone by throwing them kittens. I read this on the Internet Must be true, but, you know, not necessarily. But you know, the concept that that all they had to do, all they had to do was in power mark customers. And it wasn’t Mark’s phone. Mark was a really nice guy, but he was not allowed to do that. He would get fired if he tried to do a deal like that for me. And so it’s this concept, you know. And the funny thing is, it comes down to if you really want to go down the road. In terms of a public company like Verizon of where the issue is, you can even trace it to fiduciary responsibility because the fiduciary responsibility of any company CEO all the way down to the employee is to make money for the shareholders. Okay, that’s the future. Responsibility means by not allowing me, they’re not allowing Mark, the customer service agent to to help me and take a different tack. He’s actually losing money. Too many CEOs think about the next quarter, so we have to make our numbers. Next quarter, I’m fired. Companies in other countries tend to think of the next quarter century, And they make a much bigger difference because they think, Okay, what can we do now that will have impact in the next 5, 10, 15 years, you know, and really implement the revenue that we have and and augment and companies Americans don’t think about that, and that’s a big problem. I

[00:17:39.24] spk_1:
buy a product line, uh, has a lot of natural and recycled materials its seventh generation and their, um, their tagline is that in in our every decision, we must consider the impact on the next seven generations. It comes from an American Indian.

[00:17:48.98] spk_0:
It’s a great it’s a great line. I mean, just think about how much money Verizon would have made for me in the past three years. Just just in my overseas, you’d be telling

[00:17:55.71] spk_1:
a story about like them about Martin’s like the one of Morton’s

[00:18:19.64] spk_0:
look, a lot of people listen to me and they for a time when you Googled roaming charges variety When you Google Verizon roaming charges. My story about how I saved all this money came up first because I did the math. And if I had not called Mark and bought my own self on and done this, I would have come home with $31,000 cell phone bill and your damn of what I’m gonna do anything about that would be like up Too bad. Sorry should read the fine print

[00:18:23.91] spk_1:
and plus the the employee who sold you the quote international

[00:18:27.56] spk_0:
plan, right?

[00:18:28.53] spk_1:
I’m sure you told her,

[00:18:29.93] spk_0:
she said, where we’re going, I’m going to Canada and I’m going to Dubai. I’m assuming she didn’t know where to buy, was she? Probably. It was near Canada, but, uh, yeah, Long story short, I couldn’t use it.

[00:18:40.14] spk_1:
All right. So employees have to be empowered. There has to be. We have to be changing a thinking too. I mean, the customer has to come first. The donor of the volunteer

[00:20:41.74] spk_0:
Don’t volunteer. You get at the end of the day, where is your money coming from? I don’t care if your nonprofit or Fortune 100, where’s the money coming from? You know, and if you we see it happening over and over again, we’re seeing what you’re seeing right now. Play out every single day with the company uber, um, and uber. It’s so funny because uber makes, uh, you know, they’re valued at $40 billion right now, but that doesn’t mean anything that doesn’t mean anything. If people are running away in droves, which people are, there’s a whole delete your uber app movement. People are God’s people are leaving. What’s the problem? Well, it’s several number one. That uber is run by a bunch of guys who honor the bro code. The company was actually started by a guy who, in on business in business insider, said he started the company to get laid. Um, his goal was to always have a black car When he was leaving a restaurant, uh, to impress the girl he was with that he came out and said that And you see that culture run rampant throughout uber, um, from their God mode, where they can see they actually created. It was, uh I don’t know where I read this business insider as well. It was They created a hookup page that showed or or or or walk of Shame Page that showed where, uh, women were leaving certain apartments like on weekends going, leaving certain place on weekends, going back to their home. Um, it was obvious that they, you know, met some guy like they did that. And then, of course, just their whole surge pricing mentality, which is, you know, two days ago there was a couple days ago. It was a the terrorists of the figures, a terrorist attack in Sydney at that at that bakery and Sydney, uh, uber and Sydney instituted surge pricing for people trying to get out of harm’s way. You know, and and they later refund it. Always a computer glitch. You know, I’m sorry. You have a stop button. And you can when you see something happening like that, this has to be someone in the office, because you know what? Not cool. We’re going to take care of that and and hit the stop button. And it was Yeah, bad tons and tons and tons of bad publicity. You know, I was having an argument with one of my facebook page facebook dot com slash peter Shankman Because they said, Oh, you know, um, so what? They don’t they don’t turn on surge pricing, don’t have enough cabs there, and, you know, people can’t get home. I said I’m pretty sure that the only I’m sure that no one had cab companies there. I’m sure that there wasn’t anyone who had enough cars, their private cabs, ubers, whatever. Yet the only stories I read about companies screwing up during the event where uber not Joe’s Sydney cab company. You know, I didn’t see him screwing up because he didn’t turn on surge pricing. You gotta You gotta respect your customer. You have to,

[00:21:07.34] spk_1:
As we’re training for that then not only, uh, trying to change their mind shift. Well, in in trying to change that mindset rewards for for customers, for employees that do go, do go the

[00:22:11.74] spk_0:
extra mile. Well, first of all, if you give the employees the ability to do it to go the extra mile and I understand they won’t get fired, you’re not gonna get into. I always tell every one of my employees you’re never gonna get in trouble for spending a little extra money to try and keep a customer happy. You’ll get fired for not doing it. You know, you get fired for, not for seeing an opportunity to fix someone and not taking not doing everything that you could. You know? Ritz Carlton is famous for that. Ritz Carlton hires people not because whether they can fold a bedsheet but for how well they understand people. Because in Rich Collins mind, it’s much more important to be A people person and be able to be empathetic. And that is such a key word. Empathy is just so sorely lacking. You know how many have called customer service? Yeah, you know, I have to have to change my flight. My my my aunt just died. I really need to 100. Okay, great. That’s $300. I just want to go an hour earlier. You know, you show up at the airport, your bag is overweight by half a pound. $75. I just Can you Can you just cut me some slack? Nope. So empathy and giving the custom, giving the employee the ability to understand that the customer that sometimes you can make exceptions and it is okay to make changes.

[00:22:18.91] spk_1:
And this is where a smaller organization has huge

[00:22:33.84] spk_0:
advantage. It’s easier to change. That’s what kills me. You know, I go to these. I try to frequent small businesses when I can I go to some of these small businesses and they won’t they act like large businesses, you know, in the respect that they don’t have a like they

[00:22:35.45] spk_1:
want to be respected. Almost. They

[00:23:14.14] spk_0:
Don’t have, like, a 66,000 page code that they have to adhere to. They can simply, uh, do something on the fly. And yet, for whatever reason, they won’t do it. And and it’s the most frustrating things. Like guys, you’re acting like a big you’re acting like Mega Lo Mart here, you know, And you’re not Mega Lo Mart, and you’re just Joe’s house of stationary, whatever it is and you know, Not be able to help me. You’re pretty much killing yourself because you don’t have 85 billion customers that come through the door after me, you know? But I have a pretty big network, and for small business to get killed socially, as social becomes more and more how we communicate, you know, it’s just craziness.

[00:23:23.64] spk_1:
It’s, you know, we’re pretty much in the world. I think we’re something almost hasn’t happened to you unless unless you share it.

[00:25:44.34] spk_0:
I joked that, you know, if I can take a selfie. Was I really there? Um but it’s true, you know, we we do live in a world where, you know, I remember God 10 years ago. Maybe not even not even 10 years ago. I was one of the first people to have a phone in my camera you know, and it was like drinking from that’s what I said. Yeah, I can’t find my phone right. And it was like a I think it’s a 0.8 megapixel, you know, it looked like I was taking a picture with a potato. But it was, um it was this. I remember it was 2000 and two, and I was in Chase Bank and there was a woman arguing with the teller, and I pulled out my video. You know, it was it was the crappiest video you’ve ever seen. But I pulled it out and I said, You know, uh, I started recording, and the woman behind the woman behind the counter was the woman behind the counter was talking to the customers, saying, You do not speak to me that way. You get out of this bank right now and the customers saying, I just wanted my balance, and you and the manager comes over and get this whole thing on my little crappy three g Motorola phone phone. And I remember I posted online, and Gawker picks it up. I gave my email. You know, my headline I put on my blog was, you know, chase where the relationship is that Go after yourself, you know? And it was It just got tons of play. And then Gawker picked it up. It went everywhere. Totally viral. So it’s one of those things here, just like, you know, this was in 2000 and two. It’s 12 years later. How the hell can you assume that nothing is being that you’re not being recorded? You know, I I remember blowing I sneezed a couple weeks ago and, uh ah, not to get too graphic here, but I needed a tissue big time after I was done, anything. I remember going through my pockets looking for desperate, looking for tissue and looking around making sure I wasn’t on camera somewhere that someone didn’t grab that. Give me the next viral sensation, you know? I mean, I went God, I went to high school with eight blocks from here, right? If the amount of cameras that are in Lincoln Center today Were there in 1919, 90 be having this conversation entirely, I’d be having this conversation behind bulletproof himself. And, um, yeah, so you know, you’d be you’d be talking to You have to get special clearance to visit me, probably at the Supermax in Colorado. So, you know, it’s it’s one of those things that you’re just like my kid, who’s who’s almost two years old now is going to grow up with absolutely no expectation of privacy the same way that we grew up with an expectation of privacy. And I’m thankful for that because she will make a lot less stupid moves. You know? I mean, God, the things that I thought, you know, in, in, in, in high school I thought the stupidest in the world. Thank God there wasn’t a way for me to broadcast that to the world in real time. Jeez, thank God

[00:25:59.64] spk_1:
creating these zombie loyalists. And we’ve got to change some. We’ve got to change culture and thinking and reward systems. Let’s go back to the cost of all this. Why is this a better investment than trying to just focus on new donors?

[00:27:20.74] spk_0:
I love I love this analogy and I’ll give you a fun analogy. Let’s look at a bar and there’s a very cute girl across the across the park and she catches my eye catcher. I go up to her go. You know you don’t know me. I am amazing in bed. You should finish your drink right now. Come home. Let’s get it on. I’m gonna impress. I’m that good chance that she’s gonna throw a drink in my face. Go back talking to her friends. I’ve done a lot of research on this. That’s probably understand. Now let’s assume let’s assume an alternate world. I’m sitting there on my phone. I’m just playing like, you know, some words with friends like that. And, uh, she’s over there talking to her friends, one of her friends. Holy crap. That’s Peter. I think that’s Peter Shankman. I’ve heard him speak. He’s in this fantasy world. I’m single, too. He’s I think he’s single and he’s having this amazing guy. I know he has a cat you have. You should totally go talk to him. At the very least, I’m getting this girl’s number. That’s PR. Okay. And what do we trust? More me with my, you know, fancy suit collar Going over the seventies, leaders did. Hi, I’m amazing. Or the girl saying, Hey, we’ve been friends since third grade. I’m recommending that guy. You should trust me on this, You know, obviously that that’s where, uh, good customer service comes into play. And that’s where corporate culture comes into play. Because if I have a great experience with you and at your company, I’m going to tell my friend when they’re looking and I will stake my personal reputation on it. And there’s nothing stronger than that.

[00:27:26.19] spk_1:
And these are the people who want to breed

[00:27:27.55] spk_0:
as it’s stronger than advertising stronger the marketing

[00:27:30.74] spk_1:
and they’re gonna share. People

[00:27:55.94] spk_0:
want to share that. I think about the Internet runs on two things. It runs on drama, drama and bragging or bragging and drama. And if you if you need any proof of that, you know, go and look at all the hashtags with crap that’s happened, you know, bad customer service, bad, whatever. But then look at all the good Hashtags. You know, when our flight’s delayed for three hours and we lose our seat. Oh my God, I hate this airline. Worst airline ever. But when we get upgraded right hashtag first class bitches or whatever it is, you know something stupid like that and the whole because we love to share. It’s only a great experience if we can tell the world, and it’s only a bad experience if we can make everyone else miserable about it as well.

[00:28:54.94] spk_2:
It’s time for Tony’s take two Thank you for the year. It’s been another the second in a row up and down years. But you can count on nonprofit radio, and I know I can count on you are consistent, loyal podcast listeners year after year or some of you. Some of you knew this year. Welcome. Whether you knew this year whether you’ve been with us for a long time. I mean, this is show # 570. So, have you been with us 570 shows? Um, that’s a long time that I’ve been here. I’ve been here 570, however long. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. Yeah. And up and down year yet again. But, you know, you can count on nonprofit radio,

[00:29:00.74] spk_1:
and I know I can count on you.

[00:29:31.84] spk_2:
That’s the That’s the bargain. So thank you. Thanks for the year. We’re gonna be off next week and then and then back in early January. Thanks very much. So glad to have you with me. That is, tony. Stick to We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for the classic zombie loyalists.

[00:29:41.34] spk_1:
Peter, you have a golden rule of social media that that a good number of customers like to share and people are going to keep doing it.

[00:31:15.14] spk_0:
People will always share again. It goes back to the concept that if you create great stuff, people want to share it because people like to be associated with good things. If you create bad stuff and buy stuff, I can meet, I mean anything from a bad experience. Too bad content. People not only won’t share that, but we go out of their way to tell people how terrible you are. Um, you know, how many times have you seen companies fail horribly? Uh, you know, after major disasters when companies are tweeting, um, you know, completely unrelated things after after a random school shooting? Uh, no. It was after the shooting at the theater in Aurora, Colorado at the Dark Knight. Um, the NRA tweets. Hey, shooters, what’s your plans for this weekend? You know, and I’m just going, really, you know, but And of course, the thing was, the thing was retweeted millions of times, you know, with the sort of shame on the NRA. So we we’re a society. Like I said earlier, that loves to share when when great things happen to us, but loves to tell the world when we’re miserable, because we’re only truly miserable. We make everyone else miserable right now, Um, it’s funny you mentioned, uh, generosity series, Uh, the one of my favorite stories, which goes to sort of a bigger picture of culture. And, um, somehow when you’re just doing your job because that’s what you’re supposed to do your job. But you don’t realize there are ways to get around that. I I listened to your podcast, among others, when I’m running through Central Park, Um, and more like, if you know, my body type more like lumbering through Central Park. But I get there. I’m an iron man. I have, I have that. And so I go through Central Park and it’s super early in the morning cause I usually have meetings and I don’t run fast. Um, I run like I really don’t run fast, but But as I’m running, But

[00:31:24.23] spk_1:
let’s give you the credit. You have done a bunch of iron man. I have try.

[00:33:28.64] spk_0:
I do. I do it, you know, my mother tells me that I just have very poor judgment in terms of what sports I should do. But, um, on the flip side. I’m also a skydiver, which is with my weight is awesome. Yeah, I fall better than anyone. Um but so I’m running through central park. Last year it was February, February of of 13 and 14 of this year and it was probably about 4. 45 in the morning because I had a an eight. AM meeting. I had to do 10 miles. So 45 in the morning, I’m running about but around 19, 79th, 80th Street on the east side, in the park and a cop pulls me over and I said, What are you doing? I look at him, you know, I’m wearing black spandex. I have a hat. It’s five degrees. I don’t like what I’m playing checkers, you know? But, you know, I’m like, I’m running and he’s like, Okay, can you stop running? I’m like, Okay, because they give the park’s closed like, No, it’s not like I’m in it. Look around. There are other people who know part does nobody else exam. I’m like, he’s like, Do you have any idea on you? I’m like, No, I’m running. He goes, What’s your name? I’m like, seriously, like I’m writing you a summons. I’m like you’re writing me a summons for exercising. I just want to clarify that you’re writing music, and sure enough, I wrote me a summons for exercising in Central Park before it opened. The charge was breaking the violating curfew. You know, I’m like I get the concept of the curfew is to keep people out after two a.m. It’s not to prevent them going in early to exercise, to be healthy. I’m like, I’m not carrying, you know, a six pack. I’m not drinking a big gulp. I’m not smoking. I’m you know, I’m doing something healthy, and you’re writing me a summons for it. Um, and I said, you know, I’m gonna have a field day with this. I said I I kind of have some fathers. There’s gonna be a lot of fun. I’m not, You know, I know you’re just doing your job, sir, even though you have the discretion not to, but Okay, so I go back home, take a picture of my ticket, I email it to a friend of mine in New York Post. You know, front page, New York Post. Next day. No running from this ticket. You know for that. Great New York Times covered it. Runner’s world covered. I mean, I went everywhere. Gawker covered it, you know? And And my whole thing was just like, Dude, you have to scratch. Look at me. You know, I’m not I’m not even going super fast, for God’s sake. I’m just I’m just trying to exercise here, you know? And of course, I went to court, and I beat it. But how much money they cost the city for me to go to court, fight this thing? You know, every employee you have to give your employees the power of discretion. The power of empathy to make their own decisions. If you go by the book, bad things will happen.

[00:33:36.14] spk_1:
And again, small shops. So much easier to do. Flat line, flat organizations.

[00:35:10.94] spk_0:
I work with a non profit um, animal rescue nonprofit. Um, a friend of mine was a skydiver and shot him out. No, I can’t, but but there’s a friend of mine was a skydiver, and she was killed in a base jump several years ago. And her husband asked to donate in her memory to this non profit. So I said, I’m a check and about three months later, I get a coffee table book in the mail. And I was living by myself at the time. I didn’t own a coffee table. It was more money to spend on my flat screen. And I remember I call I look at this coffee table book. I throw it, I throw in the corner. I look at it over the next couple of days and pisces me off. And how much How much of my donation did it cost to print? Well, and produce this book to me, And so I called them up. Well, sir, we believe most of our donors are older and probably refer to get a print version as opposed to, like digital. You know where they throw it away and like, you don’t throw digitally, but okay, um, I’m like So So you’ve asked your you’ve done surveys and you’ve asked, you know, we just assume that most of them are older. I’m like, Okay, So I opened my mouth, wound up joining the board, and I spent the next year interviewing customers, interviewing every current and past donor about how they like to get their information and shock of shocks, 94% said online. And so over the following year, we launched Facebook page, Twitter page, uh, Flickr account, YouTube, everything. Ps the following. After that, donations went up 37% in one year In that economy is right around 809. Donations went up 37% in one year, and they saved over $500,000 in printing, mailing and reproduction. Imagine going to your boss. Hey, boss. Revenues up 37%. And we saved a half million dollars. You’re gonna buy a really good beer. You know, all they had to do was listen to their audience, be relevant to the audience you have, and they will tell you what they want. We have tons

[00:35:17.89] spk_1:
of tools for segmentation. My God, you’ve got to listen to what segment that you want to. People want to

[00:37:33.83] spk_0:
be in. You know, someone? Someone asked me that they show what? What’s the best? I knew nothing about the company. What’s the best, uh, social media outlet for me to be on? Should be on Twitter should be on Facebook. I said, I’ll answer that question. If you can answer this this this question to ask you is my favorite type of cheese Gouda or the number six? Yeah, they say, I understand that’s not a real question like neither is yours. Like I can’t tell you where the best place to be your audience can. I said, Go ask your audience. Believe me, they will tell you there’s a gas station in the Midwest. Come and go. Um, I just love the name K U M and G O come and go and they’re tackling the book you can read more about. Their tagline is always something extra. I mean, come on, the jokes just write themselves, for God’s sake. But they don’t take themselves too safe. Really love that Come And just knowing the name of the company gas station. And, um, you know, I remember there in Iowa and I went to visit a friend in Iowa and I was like, You got to get a photo of me in front of come and go inside. And the beauty of this is that some of their employees actually look at their customers when they’re on their phones and the stories go. You know what do use Twitter or Facebook? And they say Oh, yeah, And they record that information and they know it. God, customers will give you so much info if you just ask them, because then they feel invested. They feel invested in your company. They feel like they that you took the time to listen to their nonprofit request for their their their questions. And they feel like they did for Harrow. Every month we have a one question Harrow survey, you know, harrowing question survey. And it was like 1000 people respond, and I spent the entire weekend emailing Everyone responded, thanking them personally took my entire weekend. But it was great, because what wound up happening is that, you know, if we took their advice and launched on Monday with the new thing, they go, Oh, my God. Howard did this. They took my advice. Well, yeah, it was your advice to 800 other people’s advice, but we took it and they’d be like, Oh, my God, this is it. And it just it just made them so much more loyal. And they tell hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people we get I mean, there were days like there are days where I was in Temple one morning, the Garment Center synagogue and my phone. I feel my phone getting really hot in my pocket, which is not normal, and I’m starting to hurt and I look at it. It’s almost on fire. It had frozen because we were mentioned in Seth Godin’s morning blog, and at that time I was getting emails. Every time we get a new subscriber and the phone is actually frozen and was locked and and was like overheating, I take out the battery and reset the entire phone because we just got so many new like 14,000 subscribers in, like, three hours. It’s obscene. Obscene,

[00:37:35.25] spk_1:
you say. Excuse me? You say, uh, that customer service is the new advertising marketing NPR?

[00:40:23.41] spk_0:
Yeah, it really is well again. You know, if we’re moving into that world where so imagine a lava lamp and I love that. I can use this analogy. Imagine a lava lamp. Lava lamp has water, oil and heat source. Right heat source heats the oil. The oil flows through the water. It makes pretty colors. I’ve heard it looks really good when you’re high. Now I’ve heard now imagine if Crystal’s imagine if you are, uh, everyone you meet in your network, okay, is a drop of oil. The water is your network. And what is your world? Everyone you meet in your network from from the guy you’re sitting doing the radio interview with to the guy who serves you ice cream with local deli to the guy who does your dry cleaning to your girlfriend to your wife, too, at the same time to your kid’s second grade teacher to your second grade teacher years ago. Everyone you meet is in your network, you know, right now, when Facebook first started, I would see the same weight from a kid with junior high school with his posted at the same weight as like my current girlfriend, Which is ridiculous. I don’t need to know about everything my friend from junior high schools do. We have to talk to the kid. In 15 years, Facebook’s gotten a lot smarter as Google. Now I see the people I communicate with the most, okay, and if I if I reach out and communicate with new people, they start rising in my feet and my stream. If I don’t they fall. It’s just like a lava lamp. Every person you connect with is a drop of oil. The heat source at the bottom that’s rising. Raising or lowering those drops of oil is relevance. So if you imagine the heat sources relevance and the more I interact with someone, the more the higher they go in my network. And the more I see of them, the more trust level there is. When I’m at a bar and I meet someone at a restaurant or conference, I meet someone. I don’t need to, um, connect them. I don’t need to go on Facebook and friend requested, you know, awkward friend. Requesting is when you stop and think. The last time I friend requested some of the real world was second grade. Will you be my friend? My daughter is doing that because, you know, she goes into like, the cat. Will you be my friend like honey? The cat doesn’t wanna be here, but you know it’s this awkward thing. Who the hell friend request someone anymore? If I’m if I’m hanging out with you to bar and we connect again and we talk and we go out to dinner and we’re having a good time with friends. I don’t need to first request that you, you know, that’s going away Friending following liking and fanning is all going away. What will interact is the actual connection. So if I meet with you and I have a good time with you and we talk again if I use your business, if I go to your non profit, if I donate if I volunteer or whatever the network knows that the more I do that, the more interact with you. The more you have the right to market to me and the more you will be at the top of my stream and the more I will see information about you, the less I will have to, uh, search for you. But if you do something stupid or were no longer friends, yeah, you’re going to fade and unfriend, you just disappear. Unfriending is also awkward. I dated a woman we broke up. It was nine months after we broke up. There was one other friend, the other one, because it’s just awkward. So I woke up in front of me anyway. But you know the concept of not having to do that, just, you know? Okay, I haven’t talked to in a while. I don’t see your posts anymore. It’s the real world. That’s how it should be.

[00:40:24.73] spk_1:
And if you’re not feeding zombie loyalists, they can start to defect questions. So I want to I want to spend a little time on. If you’re

[00:41:11.71] spk_0:
not talking to them, giving them what they want talking about their information, helping them out, they will gladly go somewhere else to someone who is. You know, if I have a great experience in the restaurant every week for three years and then all of a sudden over time, I’m noticing less and less that restaurants doing less and less to take care of me, you know, and maybe management to change. And I don’t feel that, you know, I’m ripe for being infected by another company. I’m right for someone else to come see. You know, Peter, Because if I tweet something like, Wow, I can’t believe I have to wait 40 minutes for a table that didn’t used to be like that. If someone else is smart restaurant, they’re following me. And they’re gonna get you know there’s no way. No way over here. Why don’t you come to black storms will give you a free drink you know, you know, and that right there, that’s the first sign of infection, and I might become infected by another by another. Company becomes a lot less for them.

[00:41:22.81] spk_1:
And so let’s let’s take. You have a lot of good examples. Let’s take a one on one situation. How can we start to cure that? The simple act of realizing

[00:41:42.21] spk_0:
following your customer’s understanding when they’re not happy and fixing the situation before it escalates. You know you can contain a small out Brett. A small outbreak small viral outbreak. You can contain that by getting the right people finding out what the problem is getting into one room, fixing their problems, healing them.

[00:41:42.84] spk_1:
You have a good united story. Back when it was Continental,

[00:42:40.50] spk_0:
I was a frequent flyer and booked a trip to Paris, and it was very angry because they charged me $400 and looking for you. Remember what it was and I called the CEO just just for the hell of it. I’m like, I’m gonna I’m gonna write a letter or an email. This was before Social wrote an email to the CEO and like this is ridiculous. I’m freaking tired, huh? And, like, 30 minutes on my phone rings. Hello? Peter, can you please hold for Larry Kellner, CEO of Cotton Airlines? I’m like crap, you know, and the guy gets on the phone. He’s like, Peter, How you doing? How you doing? Sorry, Clinton. These fees, their new, um, we send them a note, I’m guessing it and see it. We’re gonna waive them for you. But if you have any more problems, you know, feel free to call me and I end up the phone for the next 40 minutes, sort of staring at it like Holy crab Larry killed or the CEO of United. Everyone just called me and talk to me, and it was like it was like, God coming down and say you now have the power to levitate your cat. It was just ridiculous. And so, you know, I have been faithful to Continental and now united ever since, and and they continue to treat me with respect and and do great things, and they’re they’re improving. They’re getting a lot of crap over the past several years, and they really are starting to improve. It’s nice to see

[00:42:52.50] spk_1:
And not only, of course, your own loyalty. But

[00:42:54.41] spk_0:
you’re my God.

[00:42:55.11] spk_1:
How zombie loyalist for them And how many times how much it’s

[00:42:58.83] spk_0:
unquantifiable qualified. Dr. Drag, So many friends to united. I’ve made so many friends. Uh, my father, you know, uh, he only flies united now, which means he only drag drag my mom Only in United only drag my wife in United States. There’s a lot of a lot of work that way. Yeah.

[00:43:22.80] spk_1:
Are we gonna go away for a couple of minutes when we come back? Of course, Peter. And I’m gonna keep talking about his book Comes out in January. Zombie loyalists. You have some examples of zombie loyalist leaving and mass like dominoes. Netflix. They’re both They’re both in the book. So it’s so one leaving. If you know, if you’re not starting to cure one leaving,

[00:43:59.20] spk_0:
and then that’s the thing. You know that it will expand the internet with the hashtag everything like that. You know, it doesn’t take a long time. Um, for those things to sort of blow up in your face and, uh, you know, the end of the day, everyone say, Oh, you know Twitter is responsible for for us losing. No, they’re not. You’re responsible for you losing, you know, And And if your product isn’t great and you’re your actions, don’t speak well of who you are. Then there’s no reason your customers should stay with you, you know? And it was so social Media is really hurting us. I know you’re hurting yourself. The only difference is that social media makes it easier for the world to know about.

[00:44:06.14] spk_1:
They’re just telling the story. Yeah, dominoes and Netflix are good examples because they got back, they took responsibility and

[00:44:38.89] spk_0:
they both owned the dominoes, came out and said, You know what? You’re right. Our pizza. We do have a problem. We’re gonna fix this. And they spent millions fixing it. And sure enough, they’re back with a vengeance. Now I’m I’m maybe not even ordered them every once in a while and I live in New York City. That’s that’s a That’s a sacrilege. But, you know, I have the app on my phone from overseas, traveling somewhere I’ll be showing or whatever. And you know what? You’re gonna get it 11. 30 at night when your flight is delayed. You land down. Um, which reminds me I’d probably go exercise. On the flip side, you look at something like Netflix. They they also were screwing up, you know, They were losing their trying to switch between the two. They came up with a new name and everyone’s like, gross public man. And so and again you’re watching the same thing happened with uber right now would be really interesting to see if they’re able to repair themselves.

[00:44:55.39] spk_1:
Listening is important. Both both those. Both those two examples. They listen to their

[00:46:54.48] spk_0:
customers. I think there’s a problem with listening because everyone’s been saying, Listen, listen, listen for months and years and years and years now, But, you know, no one ever says that you have to do more than just listen. You have to listen actually follow up. It’s one thing to listen, you know, I use example, my wife I can sit there and listen to her for hours, you know? But if I don’t actually say anything back, she’s gonna smack me, you know, and go to the other room. And so you really have to. It’s a two way street. Listening is great, but you gotta respond and look, I’ll take it a step further. I was like, Oh, Twitter is so great because someone was complaining on Twitter and we went online, and we we saw the complaint that we fixed the problem and, yeah, how about if the problem don’t exist in the first place? You know, because the great thing about Twitter is that yeah, people complain on Twitter, the bad thing about it is they’re complaining about you on Twitter. So it’s like, What if the problem didn’t exist in the first place? What if What if you empowered your front desk clerk to fix the problem so that I didn’t have to tweet? Hurts is my favorite story about all this? Uh, I used to rent from Hertz religiously. Um, and then I went to, uh, Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport this past April, And I gave it. I was giving a speech, and I go and I my name is supposed to be on the board, you know? So I can go out to my car and it wasn’t it’s okay. It happens. I got upstairs. I wait 40 minutes on the v. line. um, after 40 minutes, they finally say? You know, there’s a, uh, only one guy here. A lot of people might have a better chance to go up to the regular line, like Okay. You probably have told us that a little earlier. Go to the regular line. Spent 45 minutes waiting. The regular line, it’s now been. Are you tweeting while this is happening? Well, I had enough. I was actually not only tweeting I had enough time to create a meme that should give you some idea of how long I was online with myself. And I was okay. Enough time. I mean, I get to the counter how I can help you. Yeah, I was downstairs the V i. P does, and they told me Oh, you’re very preservationist downstairs like, Yeah. Okay. Let’s let’s put a pin in that, um They just sent me up here, like right? They have to help you. Well, it’s not really they You guys are the same company. I mean, I can see the reservation on the screen. You you can help me. Sorry, sir, I can’t help. You have to get the V i p. Next. Like you just next to me. Okay, so if you know anything about Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix. Um, all of the rental car company in the same place. So I walked 50 ft. It’s a

[00:46:57.76] spk_1:
bus, takes you to the big the Big pavilion, where they’re all

[00:48:53.37] spk_0:
next to each. I walked 50 ft from the cesspool of filth and depravity that was hurt to the the wonderful Zen Garden of Tranquility that was Avis. And in four minutes, I had a nicer, cheaper or nicer, less expensive car given to me a woman named Phyllis, who was 66 and moved to Phoenix from Detroit with her husband for his asthma. I knew this because she told me, um, she smiled at me. She brought her manager out and said, that’s another refugee from Hertz and I said, This happens a lot. They’re like, Yep, I’m like, Wow, you think they have done something about that? And so on the way out in Avis, um, I I thank them. I walked past her as I shoot them. This, you know, sort of look at the look of the beast. I get my Avis car to drive in my hotel. Once I get my hotel, I write a wonderful blog post about my experience called Peter and Hurts and the terrible, Horrible No book. Good, really bad customer experience. Once you have a kid, you find rewriting titles about your blog post that has to do with kids books. Um, I do not like hurt Sam. I am. And and, uh, I included in this blog post the five things I’d rather do than ever, uh, rent from Hertz again. I think number three was was ride a razor blade bus through a lemon juice waterfall. Um, with just, you know, and so. But, of course, the next day hurts reaches out to me. I’m Shannon. Well, this is the head of North American customer service. So your bike I’m like, they’re like, you know, we’d love to have Nick No. Like, you’re not going to fix the problem. Number one of the Navy’s car. I’m never going back to Hertz number two. There are five people. Yesterday five people interacted with all of whom had the chance to save me and keep me as a customer for life. A customer who had been so happy and I would have loved you. five people blew it so don’t waste your time trying to convert me back. You’re not going to. What you want to do is spend some of that energy retraining your staff to have empathy and to give them the ability and the empowerment to fix my problem when it happens. Because five people it takes every single employee to keep your company running. It takes one to kill it. Yeah, PS Avis reached out, um, to thank me personally. And, uh, I am now just this ridiculously huge, loyal fan of Avis and always will be.

[00:49:02.47] spk_1:
You have a pretty touching story about when you worked at a yogurt shop. Really? You’re really young? Um, we have a couple of minutes to

[00:50:39.26] spk_0:
tell that. Tell that story that was on the East Side, which again is yet another reason why I live on the West Side. Nothing good ever happens on Manhattan’s east Side. So I was I was working, and I can’t believe it’s yogurt, which was a store that I think back in the I c b y. No, no TCB. Why was the country’s best yoga The countries I c b i y was a poor? I can’t believe it’s yogurt I can’t believe it’s not. You can’t live yogurt. It was a poor attempt to capitalize on that. And I’m working at this store, and I go in every day and make the yoga to clean the floors. I do. You know, the typical high school job. And, uh, it was during the summer and thousands of people walking by, I think, like 2nd Avenue or something. And there were these brass poles that hung from, you know, there was an awning, right? That’s something that they’re never the brass poles that held the awning up and they were dirty as hell, right? I’m sure they’ve never been polished ever. And I found some. I found some brass polish in the back all the way back in the back. And one afternoon I went outside and I started polishing the polls. My logic was, if the polls were shining and people saw them, maybe they come into the store. Maybe they want to, you know, buy more screenplays. And the manager came out. What the hell are you doing? I told them what I thought. I don’t pay you to think. Get inside. You know, I’m like there’s no customers in there, like, Okay, I’ll make sure the yogurt still pumping it full blast. And I quit. I just quit that job. I mean, I couldn’t even begin to understand why someone would invest. I mean, do you own a franchise by 50 grand to at least to buy that franchise? Why wouldn’t he invest in the two seconds it took a little elbow grease to make the poles clean? That might bring in more customers. What the hell? You know, But

[00:50:40.04] spk_1:
you’re not paid to think

[00:50:49.76] spk_0:
you’re not paid to think my favorite line. Yeah, um, I I just I encourage if any kids are listening to teenagers. If you if you boss says that to you, quit, quit. I will hire you. Just quit. It’s probably the worst thing in the world that you could possibly do because you have customers who you have customers who every day can be helped by people who are paid to think. And that’s the ones you want to hire.

[00:51:00.56] spk_1:
We gotta wrap up. Tell me what you love about the work you do.

[00:51:44.76] spk_0:
I get paid to talk. I mean, my God, this is the same stuff I used to get in trouble for in high school, but on a bigger picture. What I really love about it is being able to open someone’s eyes and have them come back to me. Um, I run a series of masterminds called shank mines Business masterminds shank mines dot com their day long seminars all around the country. And I had someone come to me and, you know, I took your advice about X y Z and I started listening a little more. And I just got the largest retainer client I’ve ever had in my life by a factor of four. She goes, and I just can’t even thank you never sent me a gorgeous bottle of tequila like I can’t even thank you enough. Oh, my God. Being able to help people, you know, at the end of the day, we’re I’ve yet to find another planet suitable for life. I’m looking So we’re all in this together. And if that’s the case, you know, why wouldn’t we want to help people get a little bit more? You know, there really isn’t a need to be, as do she. As as we are as a society, we could probably be a little nicer to each other, and you’d be surprised that will help.

[00:51:54.56] spk_1:
The book is Zombie Loyalists. It’s published by Pal Grave. MacMillan comes out in January. You’ll find Peter at shankman dot com and on Twitter at Peter Shankman. Peter, thank you so much pleasure as Amanda. Oh, thank you

[00:53:05.15] spk_2:
Next week, As I said, No show you’ll have an extra hour. Have fun, have fun with your extra our next week, and we’ll be back on January 3rd. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty. Be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for December 13, 2021: Is A Social Enterprise For You?

My Guest:

Tamra Ryan: Is A Social Enterprise For You?

What are these and how do you decide whether to take one on—or even consider it—at your nonprofit? What kinds of businesses lend themselves to social enterprise and how do you structure the relationship? Tamra Ryan makes sense of it all. She’s CEO of Women’s Bean Project.

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:55.34] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with Spagnolo arthropod earthy If you disjointed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show is a social enterprise for you. What are these And how do you decide whether to take one on or even consider it at your non profit what kinds of businesses lend themselves to social enterprise and how do you structure the relationship? Tamara Ryan makes sense of it all. She’s ceo of women’s Bean project. tony state too. Congratulations core africa. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is, is a social enterprise for you. It’s a pleasure to welcome Tamara Ryan to nonprofit radio She is Ceo of women’s Bean project, a social enterprise that provides transitional employment to women attempting to break the cycle of chronic unemployment and poverty while operating a food manufacturing business. She’s a former partner and board member for social venture partners. Denver and currently serves as part time interim ceo for the social enterprise alliance. She’s at Tamara Ryan and the enterprise is at women’s bean project dot com. Tamara, welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:57.34] spk_0:
it’s great to be here.

[00:02:01.24] spk_1:
It’s a pleasure. Pleasure to have you. Yeah. Why don’t you first explain what women’s bean project is all about because it’s an example of what you and I are going to talk about for a while

[00:03:01.04] spk_0:
Okay We are a food manufacturing business. We started with Bean Soup in 1989 and that’s where our name comes from. But today we have 50 different food products that we sell all across the country. What makes us different is that we employ women who are chronically unemployed. So a typical woman we hire hasn’t had a job longer than a year in her lifetime. Though the average age is 38. They come and work for us as for a full time job for 6 to 9 months. And during the time they’re with us, we teach basic job readiness skills and then we also in 30% of her paid time. We teach her life skills, we teach problem solving and goal setting and budgeting and planning and organizing. And so this whole thing is her job for these 6 to 9 months at the end she graduates our program and moves on to mainstream employment in the community. So we’re kind of two businesses were running a food manufacturing business and a human services business,

[00:03:18.54] spk_1:
which is exactly what the type of model we’ll be talking about. What I admire about that I found very interesting is that you said it. Um Well you’re used to saying it, but I want to call it out for 30% of their paid time. The women’s paid time is not spent working. It’s spent learning the soft skills of employment.

[00:03:39.04] spk_0:
Yeah, we call it the huge job. The y ou job. So she has the being job and she has the huge job and she’s paid for all of it. Mhm.

[00:03:45.74] spk_1:
Uh Well, so I see the value and you’ve had uh you had a lot of success with folks. Women having jobs longer than a year after they’ve they’ve I’m going to say graduated, but

[00:03:56.70] spk_0:
we use that term also the

[00:03:59.88] spk_1:
project.

[00:04:32.34] spk_0:
Yes. So we track them at 6, 12, 18 and 24 months. We track them. What makes it easier to track them is that we pay them for those check ins. So we pay them $50 to check in at six and 12 months, $75 at 18 months and 100 bucks. Said two years to check in with us. And what we found that is that at a year uh 95 plus percent of the women are still employed. And I think what makes what’s significant about that is that again, the women we hire haven’t had a job longer than a year in their lifetime before they come to us. So what we really want to know is are we setting them helping them on a path for long term employment? You know, being able to sustain that employment.

[00:04:58.54] spk_1:
So what kinds of nonprofits are our listeners are all in small and mid sized nonprofits. So I think this is an ideal subject for listeners. What what types of nonprofits could consider having a social enterprise as part of their part of their work.

[00:06:06.44] spk_0:
I think organizations that are serving people who are using, you know, by necessity on public benefits and really who for a variety of reasons, whether it’s because of a felony background or it’s because of uh, low education levels or because of the history of addiction, you know, a variety of things that get in the way of, of getting and keeping employment. And so if you’re serving those people anyway, one way to help them, in addition to helping them build their foundation of, of soft skills is to employ them in a social enterprise. So that’s just one way that a social enterprises run. But it’s, you know, it as adults, we learn by doing so. It’s a really great way to work with the people that you’re working with anyway. Two create a business where you’re helping those same people in the long run be able to be successful,

[00:06:19.34] spk_1:
you’re a partner of social venture partners in Denver. What, what did you look for when you were investing in these types of organizations?

[00:07:07.94] spk_0:
Well, we specifically in Spp Denver, we’re looking for small organizations that both needed some funding, but also needed some technical assistance. And the reality is that we don’t, if you’re, if you’re running a human services organization, you don’t necessarily have somebody on staff that has the skills to launch a business, for instance, you know, even to do the market research to figure out what kind of business that might be um have the operational skills, you’re you’re running a human services business but you’re not necessarily running, say in our case of food manufacturing business. And so Spp really looked for organizations that needed the skill set of our partners and also could benefit from the funding that we were providing that. And then SVP’s model the funding and the technical assistance go hand in hand.

[00:07:42.74] spk_1:
So what what about organizations that uh don’t have the expertise that they need? Uh Let’s let’s let’s assume most of our listeners are not in Denver, so they don’t have access to S. V. P. Denver. What how can they how can they fill that void? And even just start like you’re saying like initial market research, how do they know where to get, how to get started?

[00:09:46.04] spk_0:
Well, every nonprofit has a board and I would venture to say that most nonprofits have business people on their board. So there are a lot of resources either through board members or through people that board members know. The one great thing that I’ve observed and I didn’t come from the nonprofit um world for my entire career. I was in the private sector before. And what I love about being in the nonprofit world is that there are lots of people who want to help and and just need to be need, they need help knowing what you need. And so I’ve been I’ve seen lots of ways we’ve been able to engage, uh, professionals in it for us, in, in food manufacturing, um, who have expertise that we need to sit on fair business development committee and help us look at uh, new product ideas. And I think that same concept could easily be applied to any organization that’s trying to figure out what kind of business they might run because that’s the key. You could decide to start a business, but it still has to be a viable business. The just just starting a business, you’re not going to get the halo effect of, you know, you’re doing it as, as a non profit and therefore it’s going to succeed. All the same market factors come into play that do for any business. And so you, you really do have to still find a viable business. That makes sense. That is needed. That you can price appropriately. Um, one of the things about the research for social enterprises or whether or not consumers are going to buy from a social enterprise, whether it’s a product or service. One of the statistics is that all other things being equal? So in other words, quality, price, etcetera. People more and more have a tendency to purchase products and services from a mission based organization or a mission based company. But the most important part of that statement is all other things, other things equal. All

[00:09:54.18] spk_1:
things being equal.

[00:09:55.24] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:09:58.54] spk_1:
you have to, you have to be able to compete with your private enter, strictly private enterprise, market driven, profit driven competitors.

[00:11:20.24] spk_0:
Yeah. You have to be able to compete. And yet at the same time, you also need to figure out what your competitive advantages yourself. So for instance, in our case we are able to, uh, we’re right now in the holiday season, you know, september to december for women’s bean project, 70% of our sales are made. So, you know, we really peaked during this time of year. One of our competitive advantages is we can bring in volunteers to help us say pack boxes or help us, you know, get shipments out the door or help with with prep of product. And that’s something that is a bit of a competitive advantage because if we were just, you know, in the, in the private sector running a regular food manufacturing operation, we really, I don’t think we could, you know, look somebody in the eye and get and get that kind of assistance. But for us it’s a way to engage donors to get people really invested, get new customers. You know, there are so many ways that, that bringing people from the community in to help us is advantageous not just to get the work done, but to get additional support for our organization.

[00:11:49.34] spk_1:
So you’ve opened yourself up to a whole new set of metrics as, as having a social enterprise and we’re gonna get to what, what the relationship is between the company and and a nonprofit or, you know, how that could be set up by different, by different organizations. But you’ve, you’ve got to measure, you’ve got to measure the company’s profit and the company’s output and productivity, productivity per employee hour or you know, whatever, you know, the, the key metrics for the business are as well as the social outcomes of of your graduates and your employee members and your and your graduates.

[00:12:34.94] spk_0:
It’s a, you know, I joke sometimes it’s a horrible way to run a business, right? Because we intentionally everyday hire women, we don’t know if they’re going to come to work every day. I mean that’s part of their barriers to employment and we work with them and they help, we help them become great employees and as soon as they become great employees, we let them go off and become somebody else’s great employee and we start all over again. Uh, and it’s so it’s super inefficient and we also over higher. So if we were a for profit company and we were trying to be as efficient as possible and, you know, squeeze every penny out of our margin. We absolutely would not hire as many women as we do. But that’s not the point. The point for us is to use our business to advance our mission. So we hire as many women as possible as we can justify based on what our sales are going to be.

[00:13:09.24] spk_1:
So what are some of the things that nonprofits need to think about, uh, beyond all right. What’s a, what’s a viable business? What other, what other factors are important?

[00:13:16.04] spk_0:
Well, maybe the biggest thing is it’s hard. And I joke sometimes with our team, like if this were easy, everybody do it. Do

[00:13:20.79] spk_1:
we really want to do it? Do we really want to do it as an important threshold?

[00:15:30.84] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s hard because you have to have the ability to entertain two opposing ideas at the same time, right? We need to run an efficient manufacturing business and we also need to deliver on our mission. And those two things actually often don’t go together very well. And so being able to both entertain those ideas and acknowledge that perhaps today the business wins. Maybe we, um, the women instead of, um, Spending 30% of today’s time in a class say financial literacy, they’re on the production floor for the whole day because we have a lot of work to do, But tomorrow maybe it’s the, it’s reversed and they’re spending the whole day in some sort of training and not making any product at all. And so our job is every day to, to balance that out. And so that’s, I think one of the hardest things is, uh, is having that ability to understand that if not for the mission, your business doesn’t really exist, but yet your, your business has to be profitable in order for to make sense and contribute to the mission and, and that, you know, balancing act, you know, is a constant. So that’s part of what makes it hard. I would say another thing is that you, you still have to find all the other, I mentioned this before, All the other market forces still prevail. So if you have a product that nobody wants to buy, you’re not going to have a successful business and there’s no amount of mission that’s going to forgive that at least not in the long term. And you know, at this point, women’s bean project is 32 years old and I think in a lot of ways we’ve just been lucky. There was no initial market research that said, you know, being super. I think that’s the key to success. Nobody, nobody did any kind of research at the beginning. Our founder just noticed she was in her late fifties, she’s gone back to school to get her master’s degree in social work and she noticed a lot of her friends who were around her age were eating bean soup for health reasons. And so she invested $500 of her own money and bought beans and put two women to work making 10 bean soup. The crazy thing is that’s still 32 years later, our best selling product,

[00:16:45.14] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you have all the time. You need to do all the writing. You need to do social posts, blog posts, newsletters, the annual report, website updates, board reports, fundraising appeals. Acknowledgment messages, staff, communications, process documentation, training documents. Do you need help with writing in 2022? Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to is a social enterprise for you. All right. That’s a terrific story. But it’s, it’s, it’s more or less than or what not to do in in determining what, what, what businesses gonna survive. Because, you know, you said it, I’m just gonna amplify it. No amount of mission is gonna forgive, uh, bad, bad marketing or a bad bad entry choice or, or any of the, any of the market forces.

[00:17:02.44] spk_0:
Yeah. And I think you also have to have either a product or service that has a decent enough margin margin to sort of forgive the inefficiency. And I also wouldn’t choose food for that reason the ship sailed for us. But you know, that’s not the highest margin. Um, you know, product category. For sure.

[00:17:22.24] spk_1:
Right now, food is notoriously low margin. Um, but you know, you said you gave an example of hiring many more women than you need, then you would. Well, maybe then you do need, then you would, if you were strictly market driven.

[00:17:28.84] spk_0:
Exactly.

[00:17:36.24] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. Um, before, before we move on. Any other advice about the, the opening questions to talk about with your board, with your leadership?

[00:19:18.34] spk_0:
Well, another aspect of balance I think is uh, is balancing being opportunistic and, and um, and not being so bullish on an idea that you ignore, um, other signs. So as an example, uh, years ago we were approached by somebody who had a whole bunch of equipment for canning and they were willing to give us all the equipment, let us have access to the facility, a whole bunch of things. But what we really had to analyze and I think this happens actually a fair amount to organizations that are thinking of starting businesses. Somebody thinks I’ve got a great idea, I’ll just give this to them. But the thing was, we weren’t in the canning business, we are a dry food manufacturer and what it would have meant for us just, you know, pivot and create another business. You know, really wasn’t worth that. What seemed like a super generous donation. Um, it was forgive the pun, but it was a whole can of worms that we didn’t necessarily mean I need to open. But that’s an example because when you start talking about this, all manner of people are gonna surface who are interested and willing to help. And one of the most important things you might, I need to do is say no thank you because you know, sometimes gifts are not always gifts in the, you know, when it really comes down to it, it’s maybe not the best strategy and it’s sometimes hard not to get all, you know? Um Starry eyed about something that seems like a fantastic gift and the next thing, you know, you’re in the canning business and you never intended to be in.

[00:19:42.74] spk_1:
Now you’re doing wetsuits instead of instead of dried soup. That’s a that’s a huge pivot. Um And yeah, I mean, that’s and that’s in the nonprofit, the straight uh non profit sector as well. You know, there are gifts that come sometimes with strings. You know, if you’ll if you’ll adopt this, create this program or

[00:19:46.62] spk_0:
women’s

[00:20:33.44] spk_1:
school, but if you started admitting boys, I’ll give you the seven figure gift. You know, that’s those are the gift size can be transformational, but that doesn’t mean you you sacrifice your mission and transform your mission to accept $1 million dollar gift. Um So All right. But, you know, Mhm interesting. You know, you you you evaluated from the nonprofit perspective, but also from the market forced perspective. You know, now we’re entering, it’s a whole new business. Now we’re gonna be competing with uh um Campbell’s, you know, Campbell’s and Hunts and Hormel, you know, whoever, whatever that be, whatever the soup manufacturers are. Um All right, So value right, important lesson to sometimes the better answer is No, no, thank you, gracious. No.

[00:20:38.85] spk_0:
Yes. All right.

[00:20:47.24] spk_1:
All right. Um advice on types of businesses that that could lend themselves to this.

[00:22:15.84] spk_0:
I’ll start with um service businesses because sometimes those can actually be really great supports for a really great social enterprises and supports for human services organizations. The nice thing about service businesses are very localized. So you could serve one community and then an example of a service business might be a uh, landscaping business or there are several social enterprises around the country that do uh go to business districts and clean up trash and snow removal and leaf removal and those kinds of things. Again, those are very localized. And what’s nice about that is that you could do it in this city and then maybe you pick it up and you do the same thing in another city. Those are really cool ways to be able to employ a lot of people and engage in multiple communities. Uh and there are, you know, other businesses um, like uh, has control is another one where, you know, that’s a pretty expandable business, um, cleaning services, especially in offices and things like that. Um, so those are some examples of businesses that actually could be really great businesses for people. And when you’re selling a service, that’s a really different dynamic than, say, you know, consumer packaged goods where, you know, you’re competing with marketing dollars from companies, it’s just much more challenging um, area to be in. You

[00:22:51.64] spk_1:
also, you also have the advantage of being able to, as you said, start local. So you can say initially the impact of our work is local. And so there’s a there’s an appeal to an appeal to the mission with your caveat that uh lots of mission is not going to overcome bad, you know, uh not being competitive market market wise, but you can say that you have that you have that local impact at least as you’re, as you’re getting started and then as you’re suggesting, you know, you can expand.

[00:24:09.44] spk_0:
And I think, you know, if you’re making a product, one of the potential challenges is that if you make a product that in our case our products consumable, so we can have repeat customers, you know, of course it has to be a good quality and taste good and all of those things. But we have customers we’ve had for 30 years and who keep coming back over and over again. If you end up making a product that’s not consumable. The challenges that, you know, say you’re making uh cutting board, there’s only so many cutting boards, somebody needs or only so many gifts you can give, you know to other people. And so you always have to be finding new customers to be able to grow your business. And that said, there’s, you know, when you start out, your customer base is so small that the world really is, you know, is pretty large of possible customers. But there’s a point at which without spending a lot of marketing dollars or advertising dollars to get noticed that you really sort of tap out the people you can access and that’s, you know, so that’s an interesting challenge of making a product where you can teach some really amazing skills, but at the same time, you know, you might have a limited customer base.

[00:24:21.14] spk_1:
Can I get these uh can I get these meals and just add water? Are they, are they that are there that simple from women’s bean project?

[00:25:19.44] spk_0:
Pretty straightforward like that. So a soup mix, you would at water, you put it in a safe crock pot and let it cook for the day. And at the end you are 10 being soup, you just add a can of tomatoes or you could add vegetables and hope into other things if that’s what you wanted. But just to finish off the recipe, it would just be adding a can of tomatoes. We also have baking mixes. And so in that case it’s everything that you need. You would add an egg and some oil or butter and you’ve got brownies or corn bread or stones. So it’s a nice thing about like a baking mix for instance is you don’t have to buy a bag of flour and buy a bag of sugar and all of those things and then have them left over. You can use our mix and use the eggs that you have and the butter that you have. And next thing you know, you made these yummy brownies and you look like a total baker. No one’s the wiser,

[00:25:20.98] spk_1:
right? You don’t have, you don’t have four and three quarters pounds of flour

[00:25:25.05] spk_0:
over.

[00:25:30.94] spk_1:
Okay. A little digression. But I was interested in and how simple the meals are. Okay,

[00:25:31.49] spk_0:
we do have an instant,

[00:25:33.37] spk_1:
we have,

[00:25:47.84] spk_0:
yeah, we have instant beans and rice cups also, which literally are adding water. Um and then and we also have some ready to eat snacks. So you know, just keep them in your desk and you know, nosh on them whenever you feel like it. So we have a pretty wide variety of different products.

[00:25:58.84] spk_1:
Ok, I’m going to check women’s bean project dot com. Um So, okay, so service businesses were, you’re suggesting service businesses, what what else, what else could folks consider?

[00:27:43.74] spk_0:
Well, there’s some great social enterprises. Again, these are pretty localized that to screen printing. So you think about your inner city and you have your screen printing business, you’re able to employ people and you’re able to serve all the companies locally for, you know, their employee t shirts or you know, races or things like that. Again, very localized but also scalable As well. Um there’s a really awesome social enterprise out of Boston called more than words and more than words serves youth 16-24 who are either aging out of the foster system or justice involved and they sell books, they sell books have been donated from the community and the the youth learned the skill of scanning the I. S. P. N. Number to make sure it’s marketable. And they recycle the books that don’t have uh aftermarket value. And then they sell the books that do and they sell both online. They have a couple of bookstores. The cool thing is all these youth are you know they’re helping them find homes, they’re helping them with their academic goals helping them sort of adult you know into the community. Yet at the same time they’re also learning these skills of running a book business. So they have measurable uh um outcomes that they have to achieve. They have certain sales goals they have to meet for their various channels. It’s a really amazing business that that they’re operating in the youth. Stay with them for a couple of years.

[00:27:47.64] spk_1:
What’s the name of that 1?

[00:27:51.14] spk_0:
It’s called more than words? Okay.

[00:27:53.24] spk_1:
Yeah back on the service side I’ve seen uh copy copy services copy and print and print shops.

[00:28:33.54] spk_0:
Yeah A bank of America actually has their own social enterprise that they operate in the house. And they serve people with developmental disabilities are they employ people with developmental disabilities but they do all the printing for their own needs. Um There’s also electronics recycling. Uh you know the statistic is that people who are on the autism spectrum have an unemployment rate of about 85%. And and yet they are uniquely talented to disassemble electronics. So there there are electronics recycling organizations that employ people on the autism spectrum to just disassemble and um and then they part of so they’re providing the employment, they’re getting the donations of the electronics um and in some instances they’re being paid by the companies to take the electronics and then they also they sell the commodities of all the things that come out of those electronics,

[00:29:00.49] spk_1:
metals, plastics.

[00:29:01.67] spk_0:
Yeah, so you know when you think about that as a we use the term triple bottom line, it’s helping society, it’s helping the environment and it’s you know, it’s it’s making money. That is a really awesome example of of a business that hits at every level.

[00:29:24.54] spk_1:
Yeah, excellent, excellent. Another these are good another example or category.

[00:29:52.54] spk_0:
Well there are some social enterprises that instead of employing people provide employment services. So there is a social enterprise that here in Denver that specifically helps people who are bilingual, english spanish get jobs in the community with employers who need people who are bilingual, but that could apply to kind of any language or not even be bilingual, you know, so they and so companies come to them when they need people who maybe it’s customer service people who can speak another language other than english. Um and so again a service business but not where they are employing people.

[00:30:11.34] spk_1:
Right, right. And and so companies pay for the for the referral for the screening.

[00:30:16.04] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:30:16.58] spk_1:
the placement basically they’re paying a placement fee,

[00:30:20.94] spk_0:
yep, exactly,

[00:32:45.74] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony stick to Core Africa, the Core Africa Ceo and longtime non profit radio Fan Liz Fanning announced last week a three year $17 million collaboration with the Mastercard Foundation. Outstanding, congratulations Liz, congratulations! Core Africa. This is going to allow Core Africa to expand from four countries, 2, 8 countries in Africa. and initially Mastercard Foundation was funding 56 young volunteers That’s going to scale up to 500. Almost 10 fold. This is, you know, talk about scaling, it’s just terrific news. Um and I think the real lesson here is in what the Mastercard Foundation Ceo cited in his quote, he says quote, Core Africa has proven its impact in rural communities and demonstrated the value of deploying a network of service minded young Africans to solve pressing issues across the continent. Their vision aligns with our young Africa works strategy end quote and he goes on. So he’s talking about the proven impact and vision alignment with what Mastercard Foundation is looking for. It’s just terrific news to scale like that, a $17 million, three year collaboration with a marquee name. Foundation for Core Africa, it’s terrific. You know, it’s a, it’s a testament to the work that they’ve done the impact that they have proven. So again, congratulations to Core Africa on this monumental funding for your important work That is Tony’s take two, we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for is a social enterprise for you.

[00:33:12.54] spk_0:
But there’s, you know, there’s just so many different kinds, there are cafes that’s a fairly popular kind of social enterprise. Um here in Denver we have a cafe called same cafe and same stands for, so all may eat and they, it is a pay what you want model. So you walk in and the menu is listed for the day and you decide how much you’re going to pay. You

[00:33:18.46] spk_1:
have heard of them.

[00:33:37.74] spk_0:
Yes. And, and so you might be sitting down and having, you know, decide that you want to pay $10 for your lunch, but you also might be sitting next to somebody who is um experiencing homelessness and didn’t pay anything and if you decide if you don’t have any money to pay for your lunch, then you work in the kitchen or you clean or you know do dishes and um and so again, it’s a really cool concept that serves people all, you know, it’s beneficial to the community at multiple levels.

[00:34:06.14] spk_1:
Excellent. These are cool examples. Yeah. Um so, all right, so we talked about services, uh some some product, I love the recycling example too. Uh any anything else before we, before we move on to organizing these these entities.

[00:35:37.54] spk_0:
Um well, the last one I’ll mention is one that’s been around for a long, long time, like women’s bean project is called Grace and bakery. They’re out of Yonkers new york and they make the brownies for Ben and jerry’s ice cream. So a big, the bulk of their business is brownies for Ben and jerry’s and they also have now gotten into doing some retail sales and corporate sales. So you might see your listeners might have seen them in some for instance whole foods at sort of a point of sale or point of purchase with a little brownie and it says these brownies changed lives, but Grayson is a for profit company. So this is a nice segue into the next part of our conversation. They are actually a B corp a benefit corporation and they they have an open hiring model. So instead of specifically going out and trying to recruit people experiencing chronic unemployment, like we do, they are always accepting applications and when they have an opening they just hire the next person on the list. So they hire, they don’t, you know, interview or you know, look at qualifications, they just hire the next person and uh you know, so they will have more turnover than a normal company would, but they’re also within that community in Yonkers, they’re they’re really changing people’s lives give by giving them an opportunity for employment that they might not otherwise have had.

[00:35:42.64] spk_1:
Okay, that’s interesting. First, that’s Grayson, G. Like

[00:35:46.56] spk_0:
G. R E Y S. T O N.

[00:36:23.63] spk_1:
Kristen bakery. Yeah, these brownies save lives. Okay, so listeners, we might, we might see those at at checkout sounds like point of sale places. Okay. Um, but then, you know, there’s the issue of, you know, giving a job versus teaching job skills in addition like, like, like women’s bean project is doing, it seems to me that the, the training beyond the skills for the job is more empowering than then giving a job and just giving a job.

[00:36:49.83] spk_0:
Well, I think that’s consistent with our philosophy at women’s bean project that there are because we acknowledge that there are lots of things that get in the way of somebody being able to get and keep the and keep I think is the important part, right? Like in a weave prior to the pandemic and I think we’re back to a, there’s a lot of jobs, but um, and so you could go from job to job to job in an environment where there are lots of jobs. But the important thing is, are you going to a job where you are a contributor where there is opportunity for advancement and benefits and all the things that make it more of a career than just a job. That’s what we’re trying to do and how we’re trying to change the, are the women we serve. That’s the trajectory we want them to be on when they finished.

[00:37:27.13] spk_1:
All right. So, you know, of course, different missions. I mean just like nonprofits that Grayson has uh, has a different model, but but there there generously hiring, they just hire the next person on the list.

[00:37:33.13] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah. Sorry?

[00:37:34.33] spk_1:
All right. So, yeah, as you suggested, and I wanted to talk about the how to organize and structure these, you know, like what’s the relationship listeners already are in non profits? Most of our listeners are uh, you know, how what would that relationship look like if they did start a social enterprise?

[00:37:52.13] spk_0:
Well, I know as as the interviewer here, you you will hate to hear this answer, but it depends. Okay, listen

[00:38:00.16] spk_1:
now, don’t hold back on. Don’t

[00:38:02.29] spk_0:
don’t tell

[00:38:04.31] spk_1:
listeners of nonprofit radio what you think they want to hear?

[00:38:06.87] spk_0:
It’s

[00:38:07.71] spk_1:
an educated self selected group.

[00:38:09.80] spk_0:
So yes, so nuanced

[00:38:12.28] spk_1:
answers are very welcome.

[00:40:13.71] spk_0:
Well, it it does depend and it depends on what you want to do and how you might want to structure it and and honestly tolerance, risk tolerance of your board and you know, of your team. So, um Women’s Bean Project is a five oh one C three. A big reason for that is because we were founded in 1989 and if you wanted to do good, that was the choice, right? That’s all you had. Um, today there are lots of different structures. You could, or opportunities. You could be a for profit company, um, and become a benefit corporation, B Corp you could be a subsidiary of a nonprofit. Um, you could be an LLC, you know, there are just so many different ways. And so generally what I tell people is first figure out what you want to do, then figure out what the corporate structure makes the most sense. What I will tell you is that I wouldn’t necessarily change our corporate structure because we’ve made it work for ourselves. Our the way we have structured ourselves by having everything under one roof. The huge job in the beam job is that we what that’s done is that it has allowed us to have a mixed revenue uh pie, so to speak. So about 60% 60% of our operating budget comes from our product sales. What that does is it supports the business that supports women’s time while they’re working in the business. And it gives us the ability by the beans and the flour and all those things and makes a small contribution to our program operations. And then we fundraise to support program operations because again when a woman is in a financial literacy class or working on a resume or even in job search, looking for the next job, we’re paying her still. So we fundraise to both support those classes but also to be able to pay her. And because we’re five and one C three we have the ability to do that. It also probably gives us a little bit of wiggle room in terms of our inefficiency. Um you know I would if we were if if all of our revenue had to come from our product sales. We would probably have to compromise the mission a little bit and hire fewer women because we have to run a business with much better margin than we currently do

[00:40:27.55] spk_1:
more efficient.

[00:41:28.61] spk_0:
Yeah. But I will also say that there are plenty of situations where the, a board of a nonprofit, they might be interested in this idea of having revenue that’s basically unrestricted revenue, but they don’t want to risk the larger organization or they do or they want to just sort of run it on the side as sort of a separate entity and maybe not have it be a distraction within their main business, so to speak. There there are risks in that as well though. I’ve seen lots of uh, non profit big human services organizations that run social enterprises and they sort of treat them like the red headed step child. And, and look at him like what have you done for me lately? Little, you know, business, Why are you not contributing more when the reality is they’re kind of stifling the growth of that, that business. Um, and, and perhaps, um, you know, causing it to, you know, not prosper. Yeah, that’s

[00:41:48.11] spk_1:
a mistaken, well not only organization, but just in, in culture, in you think that the way board members and I guess the organization collectively thinks about its social enterprise as, you know, as uh, the ugly step child.

[00:41:50.51] spk_0:
Yeah. And that’s the risk, right? If of creating a structure where you sort of set it off to the side. I mean I understand that sometimes that’s done to avoid risk, but sometimes it creates more risk for the survival of the business. One of the things I worry about having been in this field for a long time is that, you know, uh we’ve now come to a point where social enterprise is kind of cool. It’s kind of come into its own, I joke that it’s like women’s bean project has been wearing a velour tracksuit for 30 years and now suddenly velour track suits are in uh but you know, so

[00:42:24.27] spk_1:
stay behind me with bell bottom suit.

[00:42:27.61] spk_0:
Yeah, exactly. Behind long enough, if I hold on to these

[00:42:30.51] spk_1:
things long enough they’ll come, they’ll come my dozen bellbottoms suits will come back.

[00:43:14.10] spk_0:
It turns out that’s happening for social enterprise. But what I worry is that organizations will start a business and do that and sort of cut it off at its knees and not even maybe recognize that and it won’t survive and then they’ll look back later and say, yeah, we tried that. It didn’t work. But I can tell you that if it it’s not always because it’s a bad idea that it doesn’t work. It could be because you just didn’t give it the opportunity for us, we in the nonprofit world are notoriously risk averse. That’s not a news flash to anybody I know. And so the challenge is to be willing to take some risk and balance at risk. You know, it’s a risk reward ratio in a business and balance that risk a little bit um With with what the benefit could be a long term.

[00:43:36.70] spk_1:
Yeah you started the transition again. I love it the way you segue easily uh lessons you know, lessons learnt things to look out for things to be sure you you’ve considered You’ve been doing this for 30 what 32 years?

[00:43:39.70] spk_0:
30

[00:43:40.60] spk_1:
two years.

[00:44:59.49] spk_0:
Yeah, Well I often say we have 32 years worth of mistakes. We could totally help somebody else avoid and leave them free to make all their own mistakes. Um you know it’s I would say the lessons learned are are consistent with what I’ve been saying, which is you really do um If you want a social enterprise to survive, you really do have to embrace it as as being a means through which you’re going to deliver on your mission and not set it on the side and say well you know someday you’re gonna make me some money and I’ll be able to use that money to advance my mission. They have to be interwoven. Um so you know, we don’t exist to make bean soup yet we can’t exist without it. And that idea that the two are inextricable um is probably the most important thing and the most important, honestly lesson that I’ve seen. I watched a social enterprise um be formed out of an organization that was providing initially providing the same service for free. And then they formed the social enterprise too monetize the service, but yet they kept offering the service. So they had this business and they kept offering the service for free. So

[00:45:01.07] spk_1:
yes.

[00:45:46.09] spk_0:
And um, and then eventually decided that the social enterprise wasn’t working. And the, the problem I thought, you know, it’s, it’s easy monday morning quarterback, admittedly, but you know, was that they set it up to be a complete, you know, be its own competition. So of course it was, there was always going to be that tension and that conflict. You’ve got enough tension and conflict, just trying to advance your mission and advance your business without setting yourself up for failure. So, you know, that’s another lesson which is be prepared for there to be tension between the business and the mission. But be okay with that because that’s part of what you’re doing is you’re trying to change the world by using market forces. Uh, and you know, we are, we’re a country of consumers. So let’s take advantage of the fact that we are a country of consumers. Everybody needs to buy products and services. So what a great opportunity to, um, to, to, for lack of a better word, exploit that.

[00:46:16.38] spk_1:
I love the way you say, you’re working to change the world by using market forces. Um, all right. Any anything else? You wanna, you wanna leave folks with anything that we didn’t talk about that you feel is is important. Anything I didn’t ask about,

[00:47:21.58] spk_0:
you know, I would say, uh, the last thing would be that if you are thinking about, um, starting a social enterprise, start looking at other models and seeing what other groups are doing. And especially if they’re localized, there’s, you know, there’s no reason to that. You wouldn’t be able to learn from their mistakes. Um, so you we have been asked often whether or not we would expand women’s Bean project out of Denver across the country. What we have chosen instead is to be more open source where we look forward to sharing the things that we’ve learned because I think ultimately, if we want to lift up the whole field, not just, you know, aggrandized women’s Bean project, that’s not our goal. Our goal really is to help other organizations create or prosper with their social enterprises, not just have us get bigger and bigger. There’s enough need to go around.

[00:47:27.88] spk_1:
Mm hmm. What about social enterprise Alliance? Is that a resource for folks?

[00:47:41.68] spk_0:
It absolutely is. And that might be a great place to start to figure out what is out there. They have social enterprise alliance has, uh, you know, members all over the country who are involved at various levels of social enterprise. So they might be running social enterprises or they might be consultants to social enterprise. Um, if you need an attorney to talk with, for instance about what your corporate structure might be their resources there. Um, but the nice thing about that is if you’re in the initial stages of just doing research is a great place to start.

[00:48:12.47] spk_1:
Okay, good value. You can have conversations with folks, you can, you can, it’s a good place to start your research and, and, and grow if you decide to

[00:48:14.13] spk_0:
mean, you

[00:48:23.87] spk_1:
might start your research and decide. It’s not really, you know, you can’t tolerate the risk or the tension. Uh, it was just something you don’t want to take on, but at least you do it, make that decision informed.

[00:49:44.67] spk_0:
Yeah. I always think that fear is not a reason not to do something right. Like you can acknowledge the fear and sort of do the things that, that you need to do to, um, to try to overcome or, you know, address the fear, but staying noticed something just because you’re afraid. It’s maybe not the best reason. Uh, and I think also, you know, we have a tendency to sit at the, at the starting line and try to anticipate all the problems we’re going to have. And, and I guarantee, first of all, we’ll be wrong about what problems we think we’re going to have and whatever solution we decide it’s gonna not be appropriate for whatever problem you end up having. And so ultimately you just got to start and and have faith that you have gather the resources and the expertise enough that you can address the problems as they come up. But I think that that tends to be and in my experience, just going to lots of, you know, speaking on lots of panels and talking with lots of organizations that are thinking about starting social enterprises is they, they often get stuck at that starting line and have a hard time pulling the trigger. Um, the reality is, it might not work, but think about it. I, I think you learn more from failure than you do successful a lot of times.

[00:49:57.67] spk_1:
Yeah, too much ready, aim, aim, aim and, and, and no firing. All right, outstanding. Thank you Tamara, thank you very much.

[00:50:00.34] spk_0:
Thank you

[00:51:23.16] spk_1:
my pleasure. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for sharing the women’s Bean project story and and beyond. Uh, tomorrow Ryan Ceo women’s being project. It’s at women’s Bean project dot com. You want to look at their dried foods and other products, especially now around the holidays and Tamara is at tomorrow Ryan. Thanks so much Tamara next week. How about our annual replay of zombie loyalists? I think. So, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm. Thank you for that information, scotty You with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.