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Nonprofit Radio for July 26, 2021: 12 New Donor Qs & Train Like A Champ

My Guest:

Andy Robinson: 12 New Donor Qs & Train Like A Champ

It’s been so long since Andy Robinson was a guest, we need to cover two topics together. First, a dozen potential questions to ask your donor who just said yes to a gift. Then, his advice to up your game as a trainer and facilitator.

 

 

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[00:00:03.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:57.94] spk_1:
Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and uh oh I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with idiopathic thrombosis. radio Penick purpura if I didn’t know why you bled me with the idea that you missed this week’s show 12 new donor questions and train like a champ. It’s been so long since Andy Robinson was a guest. We need to cover two topics together. First a dozen potential questions to ask your donor who just said yes to a gift. Then his advice to up your game as a trainer and facilitator, tony state too podcast pleasantries were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Andy Robinson to nonprofit radio he provides training and consulting for nonprofits, businesses and government agencies. Over the past 25 years. He’s worked with clients in 47 states and Canada. He’s the author of six books including train your board and everyone else to raise money at train your board dot com. His latest book is what every board member needs to know do and avoid Andy is at Andy Robinson online dot com. Welcome back Andy,

[00:01:59.32] spk_0:
it’s great to be with you. Thank you for having me today,

[00:02:08.54] spk_1:
absolute pleasure. I just want to make sure that listeners understand you were on the show just a couple months ago, May Talking about boards and financial uh financial analysis and data. But that was a replay from 2012,

[00:02:16.81] spk_0:
right with my colleague Nancy Wasserman and she and I did a different book together about that topic.

[00:02:27.94] spk_1:
exactly. Uh and so it’s been since 2012 that you were on the show, so it’s time to catch up and do uh do these two topics together.

[00:02:32.54] spk_0:
I missed you. tony

[00:02:33.84] spk_1:
Oh, you’re terrific. Thank you. Up in Vermont, See see what a humane people we have up to Vermont. Yeah,

[00:02:41.76] spk_0:
I hope so. Um anyway, I’m pleased to be back. It’s an honor to talk with you. It’s an honor to be with your listeners and thank you for inviting me.

[00:03:00.24] spk_1:
My pleasure. Um Does it annoy vermonters that everybody who doesn’t live in new Hampshire, Vermont or maine confuses new Hampshire and Vermont?

[00:03:16.34] spk_0:
Um A few people get annoyed by that. Um The cultures of the two states are somewhat different and the politics of the two states are somewhat different, but they have a lot in common, and certainly there are many people who commute back and forth and have friends on both sides of the Connecticut river. And so I wouldn’t sweat it.

[00:03:21.64] spk_1:
You’re not. Is that is that the Connecticut river that divides

[00:03:23.86] spk_0:
it? Yes, it is.

[00:03:25.64] spk_1:
Yes. That’s

[00:03:25.90] spk_0:
the kind of the river you

[00:03:26.99] spk_1:
pick up geography on probably. So you’re not among the vermonters. That is upset by the

[00:03:50.54] spk_0:
I am not and I’ve been here about 20 years. So it is my adopted home. Um much as you, you know, are living in an adopted home. So am I? So I can’t even claim the title vermonter. Um I would like to, but the locals are a little, you know, Vermont or is someone who’s been here for multiple generations. I’m gonna

[00:03:51.34] spk_1:
be generation. Yeah,

[00:03:52.59] spk_0:
it’s a generational thing, but it’s all it’s all good. And I I love living here and I’m grateful every day to be here.

[00:04:23.74] spk_1:
Wonderful. Alright, so thank you for for letting those of us who make that mistake off the hook. No worries. It’s the same as the Kentucky Tennessee dilemma. All right. 12 questions. So we’re starting off with 12 questions that you might potentially ask a new donor. Someone who has just said just said yes to a gift and your first one is how would you like to make your payments?

[00:06:16.94] spk_0:
Yeah. Right. Um and you know, I mean it’s it can be awkward because it’s we’re having this deep conversation about why do you care about this work and how do you want to participate and what would feel significant to you? And and then we have to at some point get to the logistical question of are you writing me a check and by sending you an invoice? Are we doing the credit card, you making uh installment payments to fulfill this gift? And so yeah, I think that has to be one of the questions is how would you like to make payment? And a classic solution to this is to bring a pledge form with you. So when the donor says yes you pull out the form and it includes things like how do I spell your name and how do you prefer to be contacted with me? Um Do you like email? Do you like a personal phone call? Should I come and meet with you once or twice a year? Like how do you want to engage with us? And then also there’s the payment question like are you writing the check and by sending you an invoice we’re doing installments, all those sorts of things and you know I will do a little shout out to my colleague Harvey Mckinnon who I suspect has been on your show at some point and and Harvey is an international consultant. He and I did an article about this together that I think first appeared in the Grassroots fundraising journal Once upon a Time. So he’s he’s the co author of this content. Um, but I bring it up because he’s like the international guru of monthly giving, and he will never let the moment pass without saying, you know, would you consider making this a monthly payment model? So for folks who don’t know, this is the sustainer program model where people make automatic monthly payments on their credit card or directly from their bank. So that could be one of the questions are you a monthly donor? If not, would you like to be, is that a way to fulfill this commitment? So, yeah, how how do you want to pay? Is one of those questions? Yeah, sure.

[00:06:38.24] spk_1:
Well, right, because we don’t want to I don’t wanna be so excited by the by the yes that we we shake hands, we hug and then we rush out the door. You know thinking if I stay longer they might change their minds. And then we don’t get to the details of you know right, what what can we expect? I mean you gotta this is this is a business here and let’s acknowledge from you just got a commitment for someone to invest in your business. Yes. Was that investment going to come through?

[00:07:05.64] spk_0:
So we have to be to use the wrong word here. We have to be shameless about that. And at least you know we have to be forthright and say okay this is awesome. You have just made my day thank you for saying yes. I am so appreciative how do we do this? How do we transfer the money? I mean maybe it’s stock option, right? You know, I mean there’s a lot of ways that people can make payments, So yes, thank you for naming that Tony that is one of the 12 questions for sure.

[00:07:10.42] spk_1:
Of course. Well we’re gonna we’re gonna take them off.

[00:07:13.18] spk_0:
You have, do you have them in front of you?

[00:07:14.94] spk_1:
I have a list, yeah,

[00:07:16.11] spk_0:
yeah, great freedom to me.

[00:07:18.14] spk_1:
Look at this, the guy who wrote the article with Harvey, by the way, Harvey Makin has not been on the show, if you’re recommending,

[00:07:22.64] spk_0:
I will hook you up with Harvey because he’s very good storyteller and his thoughtful and entertaining and very smart.

[00:07:29.04] spk_1:
So the guy who co authored the article, you don’t have it in front of you,

[00:07:31.94] spk_0:
um you know, I I should have it in front of me,

[00:07:34.50] spk_1:
but I think you know, make you tick off as many as you can see

[00:07:37.46] spk_0:
why don’t I do that? Why don’t I try and why am I try and remember them and then you can feed me the ones I’ve forgotten

[00:07:43.52] spk_1:
what I already gave you one. So if you don’t get credit for that one.

[00:07:46.92] spk_0:
Yeah. Well you know what happened and this is full disclosure and you’re probably your audience doesn’t need to know this. But I pulled up the wrong slide deck this morning as my cue. Oh I thought we were talking about succession planning. Oh questions. Oh well let’s see if I can.

[00:08:00.16] spk_1:
I thought the host of this show was lackluster.

[00:08:03.43] spk_0:
Yeah. Well

[00:08:07.44] spk_1:
I’m rare that we have a guest who’s been less prepared than

[00:08:08.71] spk_0:
I will

[00:08:10.54] spk_1:
we will bring this together, put you on the spot giving you once you

[00:08:25.64] spk_0:
have given me one so you won’t get them in any particular order. But I’ll do this remembering and that’s fine. I’ll give you one of my favorite questions is will you give us a testimonial about why you give

[00:08:32.24] spk_1:
that counts? I’m checking that one off. Thank you about that one. Well we’re not we’re going to see how many you can remember through the, through the discussion. I think

[00:09:13.34] spk_0:
that’s fair. Why, Why I like that one is two things first of all and you know, tony You know this your longtime fundraiser, the most powerful fundraising is a peer to peer, right? It’s one donor talking to another donor and this is a way that you can get one donor to literally talk to another. This is why I made a commitment and you know, can I put it on the website? Can I put it in our printed materials? Is something I could share on social media? How can I use that? Um, Okay, a related question is, tell me more about why you make it you chose. Yes. Like, tell me a little more about, you know, you just made a big decision. I’m I’m moved. I’m pleased to say more about this commitment. Why is this meaningful to you?

[00:09:57.44] spk_1:
What is it about our work? That’s right. And, you know, that some of these may be subsumed in your ongoing conversation about the gift. I mean, you know, so, as you’re talking, that’s fair, as you’re talking about books about making a gift, you know, it’s not it’s very rarely in my experience, a one shot, you know, you ask, and then they say yes or no. I’ll think about it there use conversations. So, you might very well, first of all, you might already have known what they love from their previous giving. But through your conversations about this particular gift, you might find that out if you didn’t already know. So you might not have to ask afterwards right already.

[00:10:12.54] spk_0:
I think a good discovery conversation with donors leading up to the ask is going to reveal at least some of these questions and answers. I think that’s fair and not everybody is that thorough or thoughtful in their cultivation and their discovery with donors. And so if you don’t have a clear answer to that question, you want to know that

[00:10:56.74] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, The chronicle of philanthropy, The new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, UsA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where two and two clients have gotten exposure. You want exposure in outlets like those. Turn to has the relationships to make it happen for you turn hyphen two dot c o. Your story is their mission. Now let’s go back to 12 new donor questions and train like a champ.

[00:11:54.24] spk_0:
This also relates to one I already mentioned. Which is what are your communications preferences? Like how should I stay in touch with you? Should I send you email? Should I send you a newsletter? Do you like the occasional phone calls? Should I take you to lunch? Um, how often? And you know, a related one. This is a little awkward and I would save this for the end, but I’m bringing it up now is what’s your given calendar? Like how often may I ask you And the, the assumption we have with major donors And I’m putting air quotes here for folks who are listening. The assumption we have is that they are once a year donors, you know, typically at the end of the year and we do the cultivation and we try to close the gift at the end of the year. And I just want to say that everybody is different. And you know, here’s an old quote which is if you know one donor, you know one donor and there’s this strong tendency to sort of extrapolate to everybody. All donors behave like this. And it’s not true.

[00:12:02.20] spk_1:
So

[00:13:10.64] spk_0:
the way I might frame this is I might say to somebody, what’s your given calendar? Are you typically a once a year kind of person or if I have a special need or an emergency? Can I come to you additionally, how does that work for you? How do you think about your giving in that way? Um, another question, especially if you’re dealing with older donors, um, for those who can’t see us tony and I both have a lot of gray this call today. Yeah, that’s all right. No, no shame in that. Anyway. If you’re if you’re dealing with older donors, one of the questions I would ask is, um, does your family know about this? And the next time that I come back to talk with you, can we have some of your kids or heirs or family members in the room so we can all discuss together why this work is meaningful to you? Because I don’t want just one donor. I want generations of donors, Right? And if dad is in for mom is in front of the kids saying this is important to me. Here’s why. And we’re trying to add to our donor list and also continue this donation after that donor has passed on, then it’s good for the family members to know why this is a priority for the person who’s making the gift

[00:13:15.70] spk_1:
interesting. That’s an interesting one. You’re sort of leading into a plan giving discussion.

[00:13:19.98] spk_0:
We are

[00:13:27.74] spk_1:
and the interesting, yeah. Trying to get the parents to engage their next generation. Their

[00:13:50.04] spk_0:
kids share their philanthropic priorities with their Children, you know, and if you have, if somebody has a family foundation and the kids are on the board, I mean this is already happening, but most donors don’t. Right. Um, so I I yeah, that, I mean that’s one that sort of surprises people because a lot of people don’t think of that one, right? It’s like, who else? Um, another

[00:13:51.15] spk_1:
Live by the way, you’re at five out of 11 so

[00:13:53.10] spk_0:
far. I’m rocking and rolling here. Um,

[00:13:55.15] spk_1:
you’re you’re in a street f so far, but there’s still time, there’s still time.

[00:13:58.83] spk_0:
Doctor tony cut me some slack here early in the

[00:14:02.29] spk_1:
co author of this thing. I’m okay if I get harvey mckinnon on the show and you can’t name more than five or six of these,

[00:14:09.94] spk_0:
I’m just getting warmed all

[00:14:10.36] spk_1:
you out when I when I when I have them on.

[00:15:32.74] spk_0:
Okay, so here we go. Another one is will you come to our board and talk to our board about why you give and you know, we’re gonna talk about board training in a few minutes. That’s, you know, our second topic this morning. But um, I do a lot of work helping board members embrace fundraising. It is like the number one piece of my work for years and years and years and part of the barriers. People have this idea that donors are a different species or they come from a different planet and like, I don’t know any donors. I’m the one who gives money all this, all this stuff. Right. We’ve all heard at any of us who are consultants who work with boards have heard these tropes all the time. And I think it’s sort of fun to pull together a donor panel of three or four of your most loyal donors and they don’t have to be the wealthiest donors. I mean, maybe it’s, you know, the classic little old lady who’s been giving $50 a year for 20 years and you invite three or four of them to a board meeting. You say the 1st 20 minutes of board meeting, we’re just going to do Q and A. And we’re going to hear from some people who love us and give us money and have them talk about why they support our work. And this is transformational for board members because they realize they love us, right? We do good work, people care. They want to be part of this, right? So will you come and share with our board why you give and why this is meaningful to you? Um,

[00:15:57.24] spk_1:
so I can see how that enormously uh, eye opening for, for board members who, who get mired in the financials. You know, as we talked about when you wrote your book, the boards understanding the basics of financial, they get mired in the financials and the and the employment practices and the non disclosure and uh, and conflict of interest policy. And they forget that were, you know, this, this wide M. C. A. Does great work in the community. You know, we’re more than just a pool and a fitness center, you know, and, and let’s hear and we hear

[00:16:18.04] spk_0:
from more than just a spreadsheet and aboard media. Right? So I mean, here’s a shout out to someone you may have had on on In the last 550 radio sessions. This case Sprinkle Grace, um, in case another well known great consultant,

[00:16:21.11] spk_1:
k

[00:16:55.34] spk_0:
sprinkled Grace, who’s in san Francisco Grace. Um, you know, and Kay has said, and I don’t know if she was the first, but she said every board meeting needs to include what she calls a mission moment, which is when board members are connecting with their hearts and why they’re in the game and why they care about the work as opposed to the spreadsheets and the policies and the agendas. And you know, this is a classic mission moment is if you have donors sitting with you saying this is why I care about your work. And this is why it connects with me emotionally. Then the board members are connecting emotionally with the work. Um, so I would put that on my list of 12.

[00:16:59.03] spk_1:
It is already there another not expanding the list. You’re not very good. You don’t, you don’t hurt your own cause you don’t want to increase the denominator. You want, you

[00:17:09.52] spk_0:
can take the new yorker out of new york, but you can’t take new york out of the new

[00:17:16.94] spk_1:
yorker. You can’t take the new york out of tony No, I’m keeping track. It’s good. I don’t want you to think that I’m just

[00:17:19.59] spk_0:
trying to distract

[00:17:20.64] spk_1:
you from the purpose of here’s the next one by amplifying somebody here.

[00:18:12.54] spk_0:
Here’s the classic one that we don’t do enough because we don’t have the courage, which is, will you introduce us to other potential donors, Right. Is there anybody else that you know that might care about this work? And you know, again, I don’t think that’s the first question out of your mouth, but if you have someone who’s enthusiastic and they’re like, I love this group is like, who do you know? Um, how can you help us? And you know, will you make an introduction? Would you consider hosting a house party? Right. Um, if we have an event which you come and speak at the event, like finding ways to involve them. Um, another question, and this is probably towards the end of the list is you’re so committed, you’re so passionate. Would you help us raise money? Are you a potential volunteer in our fundraising pool? Um, and let’s talk about the volunteer tasks that are available. And could you be one of those people?

[00:18:18.04] spk_1:
Yeah, I like, I like that one a lot.

[00:18:19.97] spk_0:
Yeah. And again, it’s not gonna be everybody. Some folks are like, no, I mean, I’ll give you money. I don’t want to, I don’t want to participate in that way. But other people like, sure. What do you need?

[00:18:28.12] spk_1:
Could you help us?

[00:18:29.17] spk_0:
Could you help us?

[00:18:30.91] spk_1:
What you’ve just done exactly. Um, um, out of 11 by the way.

[00:18:35.64] spk_0:
Thank you. I think we’re there 11 or where they’re 12.

[00:18:38.54] spk_1:
Well, there were 12, but you’re not getting credit for the first one because I gave it to you

[00:18:50.14] spk_0:
sure enough. Um, the domino a new question that’s not on the list, but harvey has thought about is how has covid changed your thinking about giving?

[00:18:54.74] spk_1:
Okay.

[00:19:26.14] spk_0:
And I don’t know if that’s an after before question. Um, but you know where he was going with it. Is is it going to be harder to get donor meetings and how are people feeling about having face to face conversations? And you know, sometimes we’re doing these on zoom now, which I’m fine with. Sometimes we’re meeting with donors. Um Sometimes we’re doing it on the phone. That’s never that’s not new. Um But even just figuring out the meeting protocols and how people are feeling about that I think is an interesting bonus question. Um Alright, feed me one because I think that’s what I got so far.

[00:19:39.64] spk_1:
All right. So now you expanded the denominator by adding the COVID question. So that increased your denominator to 12. Yeah, that’s cool. You got 234 Got nine out of 12 which is about 75% right, 75 is about a C. I’ll give you a C. Plus because you have a good smile and you live in new Hampshire.

[00:19:51.13] spk_0:
I don’t I live in Vermont but whatever.

[00:19:54.94] spk_1:
That’s right. Whatever. Whatever. Um Okay. Straight C plus.

[00:19:59.06] spk_0:
Uh geography test. Let’s see if I’m, if I’m not going to pass the test of, would you like to honor questions? Give me another one, tony like to

[00:20:06.97] spk_1:
honor or someone who is in memory or someone

[00:22:03.94] spk_0:
thank you. So again, this is, this is sort of fundraising. 101 is that sometimes people like the opportunity to use their gift to honor someone they love, who may be alive, who may have passed away, um, or maybe even honor somebody who’s in the organization. I’ve had donors say, you know, I wanted to do this, but I want to do it in honor of the staff because I see how the hard the staff works and you know, they are the heart and soul of the organization. So yeah, I mean, I could honor my grandma, may she rest in peace, but I think I want to honor the employees because they’re kicking. But um, so I have, um, I chaired a capital campaign several years ago and we had the whole conversation about naming opportunities and how to price naming opportunities and all that. But one of the things we decided as if people wanted to do naming opportunities and have little plaques on the walls, they could name it after themselves, like named after a relative or a friend, but they could also name it after a value or a concept they really loved. So we had people who used the naming opportunities to write things like justice and dignity for everyone. And instead of their name, we had a little plaque, you know, for the bookcase that they bought that said justice and dignity for everyone or lifelong learning or you know, things like that. And so the naming opportunity was not just a name. Sometimes it was a value set or a concept. Um, and that made it more palatable for the folks who thought people with more money shouldn’t get to put their names on stuff because that’s inequitable. And you know, I have some, I have some feeling for that, right? I, I appreciate that point of view. I’m also a fairly practical fundraiser, but it was sort of nice said people were given the option of actually naming some value that was important to them. And um, so yes, would you like to honor somebody or something with your gift,

[00:22:10.04] spk_1:
some

[00:22:10.92] spk_0:
value or some idea or some concept? Um, and I thought that was a nice, nice pivot on that particular question.

[00:24:13.44] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two, the podcast pleasantries. You know, I’m grateful. I hope, you know, you should know you certainly better. No, you better finger wag. You better know that. I’m grateful that you listen to nonprofit radio Week after week notice. I don’t say week after week after week it’s not a laborious chore. It’s a pleasure. I hope you’re learning. I hope there’s some entertainment value as well. I’m grateful. Whatever it is you get out of nonprofit radio I’m glad. I’m grateful that you’re with us. I’m glad it’s helping you in your own career, helping your non profit That’s why I do the show pleasantries to you. Our podcast listeners. Thank you for being with me. That is Tony’s take two Now back to 12 new donor questions and train like a champ and then I have switched to a different device because my internet dropped out. That happens when you live at the beach. Sometimes it’s windy or who knows. Uh, so sound is not gonna be as good now because I’m on my phone instead of with my fancy Yeti make, which only connects to my laptop. So Andy’s sound will be the same. Mind is not as good, but we persevered non profit radio perseveres. We’ve had lights turned off. We’ve had, we’ve been at nonprofit technology conference and had taken down taking down around uh, 5 30 when the union was going by with forklifts and taking down displays. It doesn’t matter. We persevered. So the point we were at was just saying that whether you want to do your gift in honor her memory flows very nicely into how would you as the donor like to be recognised?

[00:25:05.34] spk_0:
Yes. So there are people who like their names public and there are some people who prefer to be anonymous. Um, and so we, this is an ongoing debate in the industry is do we publish donor names or not? And I’m in favour of publishing and I think it’s a good thing, but obviously you have to get people’s permission. So I think the key question is may we recognize you publicly or would you prefer to be anonymous? And you know, this implies you have that that tracking form or that pledge form that I was talking about. And you have that you can go through that with the donor and and check that off and then presumably you have a database and you can then honor that request by either recognizing them or making them anonymous. Now a key question we have forgotten, but now I’m remembering is, um, how do you want us to use this gift?

[00:25:07.97] spk_1:
Uh, he gets another one.

[00:26:49.34] spk_0:
Yes. And you know, the point here is that we want all the unrestricted dollars we can get. The best gift you can get from donors, unrestricted general operating use it however you see fit. And there are certainly donors at times who want to restrict their gifts to specific programs or initiatives that you’re doing. Certainly this is true if you’re doing capital fundraising campaign. Um, the tendency I fear is that the solicitor tends to pitch the restricted gift when it’s not necessary to do so. And you know, there are some folks who say, well, you know, most donors would rather know where their money is going. And and my response is I think a lot for a lot of solicitors for a lot of asters, they feel more comfort in asking for a restricted gift. And that’s about our needs as the, as the Askar. And it’s not necessarily about the donors needs. So we have to get better at framing our work and say when you give us the, whatever the amount is, 1000, 5000, 10,000, 50,000. Whatever it supports the whole range of our programs, it supports everything we do in the community. It supports a healthy workplace for our employees. It supports the community members and family members. We support. It helps us build long term sustainability so we can do this work for years. So the best gift you can give us is the unrestricted gift that supports the whole spread of what? And I feel as as Askar as solicitors, we have to get better at pitching that. I think that’s about us. I don’t think it’s about the donor. So that’s one more question. Um, are there any

[00:26:57.44] spk_1:
other, you know, there are, I’m not going to make you agonize over whether or anymore. No. You’ve named you named all the ones that, that I

[00:26:59.57] spk_0:
didn’t get them all.

[00:27:11.24] spk_1:
And then you added one the covid question. So that gives you a 10, 12 Or reduced that to 5/6. And I would say that’s a solid B A beat. You got to

[00:27:12.14] spk_0:
take a B today. I will take I’ll take a B plus.

[00:27:18.74] spk_1:
Well you’re getting a big, you’re getting a beat. So All right. So,

[00:29:07.24] spk_0:
I mean, I want to I want to wrap this part of the conference tony Let me wrap the part of this conversation with a quick little summary here. Um, and then we’ll move to the second half. Um, the stress that we have as Nascar’s I think is around closing the gift, getting the yes. And I feel like there’s a tendency to think if you get that. Yes, you’re like, my work is done. People try to check out or they relax or they stop engaging at the beginning of the relationship. That’s not the end, That’s not the end point, that’s not the victory. Um The whole point is to then ask, how do I keep this donor? How do I make this donor commit even more deeply? How do I find a way to serve them so that they’ll want to give again? And so I feel like the yes is the beginning, it’s not the end. And to me that’s sort of the summation of this whole thing when we get that. Yes. Where do we then go to strengthen and deepen the relationship? And you know, there’s a I can send this to people, we can find a way. But I mean I would turn these into a checklist and I bring them with you. I think it’s okay Um to have a clipboard in front of you when you’re talking to a donor and take notes and you can ask permission to say may I take notes while we’re talking. So I remember stuff because I don’t forget stuff. And is that okay? And I think most people are cool with that but you don’t have to remember these 12 questions. You can bring a cheat sheet with you and you can or you can treat it as a as a form that you fill out when you’re talking with the donor so that you can remember these things and get them into the database. So don’t feel like you have to remember all this stuff. It’s not your job. I think your job is to facilitate the conversation and carry the notes with you if you need them. Yes.

[00:30:24.54] spk_1:
Very sound. Oh I agree. Nobody has a problem with you taking some notes. Um Yeah no I mean you want to preserve this information and and as you said, can convey it back to your to your database for sure. And I like that. Part of the way you, uh, ask how can we be of service to you is by asking for them, asking not require requiring asking for them to be of service to the organization. Would you provide a testimonial? Would you come meet our board, Would you help us with your fundraisers with our fundraising? No, that’s that’s that serves both parties. The benefit to the to the organization of course is greater engagement. Now, now the person isn’t just a donor or investor. There are, there are fundraiser along with you potentially if they agree to that side by side, but we’ll come to a board meeting. There’ll be a V. I. P. Speaker at a board meeting, potentially if they’re willing to do that part. All engagement. That’s all. This was all in service to both the donor by getting them involved in a cause that they already love and service to the non profit as well.

[00:31:37.04] spk_0:
You know, there’s a lot of data on the psychology of giving and why people give and what motivates donors to given all of that. And one of the top reasons is people want to feel connected to something larger than themselves. They want to feel connected to causes or social change or programs that are meaningful to them. Or maybe it reflects on their own experience, um, you know, in need, they had early in their life that the organization or appear organization helped to take care of for them. And so we’re giving them opportunities to more deeply connect with the community that’s creating this change. Um, so it’s an honor. I mean we feel like, you know, we feel like asking people to give as a burden. I think that’s totally backwards. Giving is an honor. It’s a privilege to give and I frankly think it’s a privilege to ask and, and then I think it’s a privilege to be in relationship with the people who give so that you can then deepen that relationship and strengthen their work. So, um we have to be proud, we have to be proud fundraisers. We have to embrace the fact that this is necessary and beautiful and holy work and not treated as a chore but treated as a chance to really improve our communities and deepen relationships and all of that.

[00:32:40.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break, send in Blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing, that’s what we’re talking about. Most marketing software for big companies designed for them, has an enterprise level price tag, sending blue is priced for nonprofits. You heard the Ceo Stefan say this all last last week more articulately than than your lackluster host does. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign. You want to try out sending blue and get a free month. Go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the second half of 12 new donor questions and train like a champ.

[00:32:43.84] spk_0:
Um, I think that’s the 12 questions. What else were we talking about today? Tony

[00:32:50.74] spk_1:
Such a such an unprepared guests I haven’t seen and I can’t, I can’t name have I think we’re

[00:32:54.72] spk_0:
talking about training, we’re talking about, we’re talking about training

[00:33:39.64] spk_1:
boards. It maybe 551 shows that since I’ve seen this, this unprepared we’re talking about we’re talking about upping your game and training and facilitating and let’s not limited to board training and facilitating you. Might be might be training your fellow, your fellow staff. Uh, maybe you’re a, uh, maybe you’re a consultant who does training and like the up the game a bit in training facilitating. So, or maybe it’s maybe it’s board work. So, the one of your, one of your articles that I want to start with is the one about, Uh, not over stuffing your agenda. You feel like people try to pack too much into an hour or 90 minutes or a half a day or a full day. So, uh, do you have any idea what that article is about that you

[00:33:42.44] spk_0:
wrote? I’m a Volunteer Today. Friends. I’m here and I’m being abused by the host just for the record. I’m doing this is but

[00:33:54.24] spk_1:
but even volunteers, we have expectations. Even volunteers don’t just walking

[00:34:05.34] spk_0:
by. I am tony I am crushing this. Let’s acknowledge this. I’m doing great today. Anyway. two per your question. Um, we have to start by thinking a little bit about how people learn,

[00:34:09.84] spk_1:
how people learn and what your goal is. Yeah.

[00:36:26.93] spk_0:
And so, you know, there’s there’s a lot of learning theories and I won’t get too geeky with folks, but there’s a learning theory that I that I think is intuitive and people understand is that we all have different learning styles and there’s an acronym V A R K bark that represents this so obvious visual, Right? Some people learn stuff visually. They look at images. They look at video. I mean, that’s their that’s their learning style. Some people are auditory a they like to talk, they like to listen, right? That’s the way. And certainly people who tune into a podcast or radio show like this are probably leaning toward auditory learning as their preferred learning method. We have, we have there are, which is the reading and writing. People who read stuff. People who, right, there are a lot of folks. When I do a workshop, the folks are taking notes and I said, do you ever look at the notes and they say, and I don’t often look at the notes, but the process of writing it down helps the landed in my brain. So I remember it. So those are those are and the k is the kinesthetic people who learned by physically doing things, by manipulating things by handling stuff. So part of my challenge as a trainer and I’ll get to the overstuffed piece in the second here is I want to create learning experience that serves all those kinds of learners. And so if you are standing at the front of the room and you’re showing slides to people and you’re talking at them, and that’s all you’re doing as a trainer, You’re missing half the room, because that’s not their learning style, that’s not how they engage stuff. And so the hard work and the interesting work as a trainer, and I would say, as a facilitator to is to is to design it in a way that it serves a variety of learning styles and learning needs. And when I see an overstuffed agenda, what that looks like to me is somebody has a whole lot of content that they feel like they have to share in the way that they’re going to teach people is by shoving all this into their face as fast as they can, and the theory that if you give them more, they’re going to absorb more, and I just don’t think that works. So going back to what you said, hey, you got to start with your goals, like what am I trying to accomplish in this particular training? What do I want people to master right

[00:36:30.13] spk_1:
now? Okay, yeah,

[00:36:32.43] spk_0:
then once you’ve got that, then the question is, how do we design something that’s accessible to a variety of

[00:37:04.63] spk_1:
learners? Before we, before we continue, I have to uh, add a couple of things, uh, listeners are going to admonish me if I don’t thank you for identifying of arc, because not probably radio we have drug in jail. So if you hadn’t methodically explained each element of bark, then it would have been a serious transgressor and you would have been uh, promptly escorted to jargon, jail free

[00:37:09.83] spk_0:
at last free at last. Yes, you are almighty, I’m free at last.

[00:37:29.23] spk_1:
You are. Um, and I recently had a guest, uh, Laurie listeners remember Laurie Krauss talking about public speaking, the research shows that people retain something like, uh, oh, something like a very small percentage. I don’t know, 2% or 10%. It’s like,

[00:37:31.00] spk_0:
Yeah, I know this data. Yeah. They will they retain 10% of what you say, but they’ll retain 90% of what they do

[00:37:38.63] spk_1:
what they’re doing there. There’s your K. There’s, you can see that, that’s

[00:41:33.41] spk_0:
the K and but it’s also the reading and the talking and the small groups. Okay, so let me make this simple for people, if I’m doing a half day training, you know, like, I’m doing a fundraising training or board development, whatever it could be an hour, and it doesn’t really matter. But let’s say I’ve got you for a morning, the way the way I designed this, and it’s another shout out to our colleague Andrea Kill Stead, who she and I did a book together called train your board and everyone else to raise money. And we spent a lot of time talking through this. Um, hey, I’m going to give you some content. Now, the chunk of content I give you is not going to exceed 15 or 20 minutes. It’s a short piece of, here’s some information you need having, given you that content. I’m then going to launch an exercise or an activity where you work with that content. So maybe there’s some small groups or maybe there’s a writing exercise or maybe it’s a role play. I mean, every fundraising trainer in the world has done role plays where people practice a pitch or practice listening or whatever, right? And then after the exercises over there is going to be some time to debrief and, and think about like what did you just learn? What will you take away from that exercise? And for me it’s always that pattern. Here’s some content now, you’re going to work with the content now, you’re going to reflect on what you learned and how you might use it. And if you had me as your trainer or facilitator for a half a day workshop, you would see this pattern repeated six or seven times in three hours. Um I’m gonna give you some stuff and I’m not going to stand there and talk to you for 60 minutes. I’m not gonna do that. Here’s a chunk of info work with the info. What did you learn? And if you retain nothing else from this part of my conversation with Tony, this is what I want you to retain. Is that pattern repeats itself. And if you can vary up the design of the exercises like okay here’s a writing exercise and the next one is a small group discussion and the next one might be a sequencing exercise where you like I’ve done, I’ve done a class where um we do, we organize a 12 week major gifts campaign um like how to do a speed major gifts campaign. And I will create like post it notes or cards that you put up on the wall. That’s a week one, week two, week three, week four. And then I create cards with a bunch of the activities like call donors, set up appointments, build a gift pyramid, all of those things and I put them all out on the table and I have people try and sequence them and they’re doing in a small group. So what are we doing? Week one, what are we doing? So it’s a classic farc via RK activity because there’s the visual piece, there’s the auditory piece of talking with each other and figuring out where we sequence stuff. There’s the reading and writing piece because you’re reading them, I’ll also give them some blank cards in case I’ve forgotten a step they want to add and I’ll give them a market so they can actually write additional steps. And then there’s the kinesthetic piece of physically manipulating these cards and putting them on a calendar. Um, So that might be, you know, 20 minutes and break out to do that exercise. And then we come back and I said like, what did you learn? Yeah. You know, and what tends to happen in that particular exercises, everybody wants to front load everything and so weeks one and two or look like this, my hand is like wide on the wall and when you get to week 12, there’s nothing, it’s like, okay, maybe you need to spread this out so you don’t kill yourself at the beginning of the campaign and think about a way to sequence it, that’s more humane. Um so I I say the word trainer and that’s intimidating to people because like I’m not a trainer, it’s not what I do, and there’s a tendency to want to hire people like me to come and do it, which is great, you know, I appreciate the work, but I feel like the basic skill set, anybody can learn, you don’t have to have a lot of formal training to be an effective teacher. Um more training helps, More practice helps. But if you sort of master the basics and you do some of the stuff we’re talking about, um, you’ll be good enough.

[00:41:41.91] spk_1:
Let’s talk about, let’s talk about chunking out your time. Yes. How much of that chunking out to share with the participants versus just keeping it to yourself?

[00:43:43.60] spk_0:
Okay. It’s a nice sophisticated question and I’ll give you a two part answer. Part one is that I tend to underestimate the amount of time it takes to do whatever I’m doing. This is true in consulting. This is true in cleaning my house. Um, this is just true in training or cutting the grass or whatever, right? It always takes longer than I think. So my skill set in that area needs improvement even at this advanced stage. Um, Having said that, I have done both times agendas and untimed agendas and what I tend to do if it’s new content and I’m figuring it out is I’ll do a trainer agenda, which is just for me where I’ll show what the times are, but that’s not the agenda I necessarily share with the group because I don’t want them looking at the clock and going, oh my God, we’re late. He’s running behind. Right? So you know, from, for many of the public events, I do, I give out an untimed agenda. I will show times for the brakes and I’ll show times for the start and end, but I won’t time out each section of the agenda. Having said that I’m chairing aboard now and when I do board meetings, I definitely have a timed agenda and I have a very ornate agenda and I’ll just do this from memory and you know, people can use this or not. This is a seven column agenda. The first columnist time like when something is going to start, um the second columnist topic, what are we gonna talk about? Um The third column is who is going to lead that and it ain’t always me. So I’m trying to find other people to share leading portions of the agenda. The fourth column, my favorite column is the decision we need to make around this particular item and I have a bias here and my biases. If you put together an entire agenda for a meeting and there’s no decisions that you’re making and it’s just reporting, you should think real hard about canceling the meeting because there’s so many other ways to share information now we don’t have to physically gather people just to do reports.

[00:43:52.00] spk_1:
Um,

[00:43:57.90] spk_0:
Column # five is follow up needed and you don’t always know that in advance. You might have to figure that out at the meeting.

[00:44:03.75] spk_1:
6es follow up needed.

[00:44:57.09] spk_0:
No, number four is decision of five. Forest decision five is I’m doing this from memory, tony should be very impressed with me. Um For his decision five is the follow up needed. Column number six is, who’s going to do that? Follow up In column # seven. And what’s the deadline by? When is that follow up going to occur? So what the way this works is you fill out some of it in advance, but some of it you don’t know until the meeting when you start figuring out like, okay, what’s our follow up, who’s going to do it? And so you actually use the agenda to build a work plan coming out of the meeting, who’s gonna do stuff and it it sort of creates the guts of the next meeting agenda, which is then about did we follow up? What was the outcome, What subsequent steps do we have to take? Who was going to do those steps? So, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily use that in the training. That’s more of a meeting agenda. We’re trying to get stuff done. And you know,

[00:45:16.89] spk_1:
let me ask you about your meeting agendas, us board chair, you’re saying you do share the timed agenda with everyone. I do. Everybody knows how much time is allocated to each subject? You maybe each row on the Yes, Okay. Everyone knows that.

[00:45:38.99] spk_0:
Yeah. And I put that out in advance. I’ll send that out a couple of days before the meeting. I mean I got a board meeting next Tuesday. I just, this is, this is too granular, but I just sent a notice to all the board members saying, here’s my, here’s like the four or five things I want to talk about. What am I forgetting? Are there boarded items that you want to add to the agenda And you know at least one person has written back and said yeah I’ve got more stuff for the agenda. So

[00:45:43.57] spk_1:
this can apply to any meeting again. Hell

[00:45:45.57] spk_0:
yeah, it could be a board meeting, could be a staff meeting, could be campaign committee.

[00:46:11.78] spk_1:
I’ve been in meetings where there was a time are appointed and the timer was not the the chair or the leader of the discussion that it’s someone else so that so that he or she leading the discussion can stay on topic and make sure that we’re moving each topic. But it’s the timers job to say We only have three minutes left on this 10 minute agenda item. And so it relieves the chair of the burden of watching a watching a clock. There’s actually a timer.

[00:46:39.98] spk_0:
Let me give you a pro tip. I love this suggestion. I totally support the suggestion and my pro tip is if you have somebody in the meeting, a board member, staff member, whomever it is that likes to talk too much and dominates ask them to be the timer because they’re going to be spending more time looking at the clock and trying to keep other people moving rather than pontificating um and taking up all the airwave. So

[00:46:42.31] spk_1:
with something else being

[00:46:50.48] spk_0:
go, it’s a deflection strategy. Um Yeah, that’s my favorite. Um So I bet you have other training questions you brought today since you’re better prepared than I am.

[00:47:17.88] spk_1:
Well, I feel like we’ve covered a lot. Um All right, let’s just let’s, let’s wrap up with managing time is your job. I think that’s that’s critical managing it subsumed in what we’ve been saying. But I want you to make it quick. You have, you have an obligation, you have a responsibility to your audience, Your meeting attendees flush that out.

[00:47:36.08] spk_0:
Thank you. Um It’s very interesting, tony that all the questions you’ve asked about training have focused on time um about not over stuffing, about to put times on agendas and it’s your job to manage time. So this is where you are and that’s interesting to me. Um So

[00:47:38.68] spk_1:
the

[00:47:43.98] spk_0:
work, the work for me as a trainer, when I get in the room, when I get in the room, I’m like doing it. I’m sorry, go ahead finish.

[00:47:51.58] spk_1:
Yeah, we’re out of time. That’s it. I’m the timer and we’re out of time by No, I’m kidding, don’t leave.

[00:49:20.47] spk_0:
Um Okay. So I guess I’m pumped defecating. There I go. Breaking my own rule. So regarding you being the boss of the time for me, the work for as a trainer is the design. It’s figuring stuff out in advance and being prepped. So when I go in the room, I don’t have to think about it too much. I can just do the work and I am doing two things. I’m paying attention to the content and I’m also paying attention to how much time things are taking and you have to have a split brain to be able to do that. Because what I’ll do in real time is all speed stuff up or I’ll slow things down based on how we’re doing against the clock. And sometimes you just have to toss stuff from your agenda because you don’t have time to do it or something more important is happening. And I’ve had, I’ve had trainings where I’ve done where we’ve gotten into really interesting deep water that’s not on the agenda and I don’t want to cut it off because it feels productive to me. So there’s an intuitive piece to this which is doing your prep, having your agenda timed out all that, but then showing up in the room and being present and seeing what’s going on and so part of managing the time is reading the room in understanding how much energy there is around the topic. Sometimes I’ll toss stuff because it just doesn’t feel like there’s any energy to embrace it and you know, I’ll go where the energy of the group is. So to me that’s one answer to your question is to prepare rigorously, but be prepared to throw out what you have prepared if the group is taking you in a different direction and the time is not lining up with what you expected

[00:50:32.36] spk_1:
and not only to throw things out, but I want to amplify something you said to spend more time on something or maybe accelerate your time, not throw something out, but accelerate your time and that’s where you know this becomes an art when on the fly, I do stand up comedy and you gotta, you gotta read the room if if certain jokes are working then you you do more of them and if another topic isn’t you you you move off it, but it’s the same as, it’s the same in a webinar or a facilitation or a face to face meeting the ability to move on the fly, intuitive, intuitively based on the clock and and the energy in the room, you know, you gotta, you gotta be watching both and that’s where it sort of one is quantitative the clock, there’s there’s no beating time. The other reason, how are people reacting to the material and where is their focus?

[00:51:31.16] spk_0:
Yeah. And the other part, I would say, and as a stand up comedian, you understand this. The other part is you don’t want to drive a particular agenda items so far that the energy goes out from it. You want to get out where there’s still some energy left. And sometimes I’ve I’ve co trained with people who wanted to milk a discussion until it completely died and then move to the next thing and you got to get out of a piece of content before all the energy is out. And you know, I mean, again, I think if you if you’re riffing on a joke, you have to learn how to get out before you’ve killed the joke. And um so I would say yes and I mean the I I that’s what I love about training is being in the room and getting that ended her back from the group. It’s been interesting doing this on zoom right and trying to figure out how to, how to transition that energy of the group into a room into something that works remotely. Um, but yes, your job is to both pay attention and be intuitive and serve the group and also managed the clock simultaneously.

[00:51:45.86] spk_1:
We’re gonna leave it there. He’s Andy Robinson, Andy Robinson online dot com. Andy. Thank you very much. tony

[00:51:58.06] spk_0:
It was fun. I’m glad we mastered the technology and I look forward to being in touch with you in the future and I hope folks will reach out if I can be of service to them by everybody.

[00:52:30.55] spk_1:
It certainly should be next week. More coverage of 21 NTCC I think if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com was sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. And we did indeed overcome the technology triumph triumph over the technology challenges today. Thanks for hanging in there with us.

[00:53:10.45] spk_2:
Are created. Museum is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan chapman. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm. Thank you for that information. Scotty. He wrote me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the Other 95 go out and be great. Yeah. Mhm.

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[00:00:04.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:12.98] spk_1:
radio big non profit ideas

[00:00:15.56] spk_0:
for the other

[00:00:16.99] spk_1:
95

[00:00:17.62] spk_0:
percent. I’m your

[00:00:19.06] spk_1:
aptly named host

[00:00:20.37] spk_2:
of your

[00:00:20.88] spk_1:
favorite abdominal

[00:00:22.04] spk_0:
podcast,

[00:00:23.42] spk_2:
it’s

[00:00:49.34] spk_1:
R 550th show, you hear the live music, It’s our 11th anniversary welcome, welcome to the anniversary show, we’ve got live music and much more of that to come. We got lots of guests and the guests begin with my co host, Claire Meyerhoff, she’s our creative producer and principal of the plan to giving agency PG agency dot com. Claire, Welcome to the 11th anniversary 550th show,

[00:01:09.94] spk_2:
Tony I cannot believe that this is the 550th show because when I first spoke to you about this show, when we sat across from each other at a restaurant and cary north Carolina, I said to you, you want to do a radio show, are you crazy? Do you know how much work it is And you were like yes, I want to do this radio show And here we are, 550 shows later. It’s quite an accomplishment. Congratulations, Tony

[00:01:16.01] spk_1:
Thank you very much, Claire. Yes, we started in july of 2010. So you and I would have been having that lunch in cary north Carolina, probably

[00:01:25.58] spk_2:
25 years old,

[00:01:27.74] spk_1:
June of 2010. There was we

[00:01:35.74] spk_2:
Were like 26, years old then, you know, we were so young Now We’re pushing 40.

[00:01:39.94] spk_1:
No, we didn’t. Claire has always been a dreamer.

[00:01:41.38] spk_2:
I love them, I’m a dreamer.

[00:01:43.14] spk_1:
Uh we didn’t know what we were doing but I knew I wanted to do it. And you’ve been the creative creative juice since the beginning.

[00:02:16.54] spk_2:
I have been every once in a while. tony will hit me up, he’ll go Clara and I need some new something, something for this. You got something like yeah, I’ll read you something. There we go. That’s my job as creative creative producer. Was mostly at the beginning to be the creative producer. And what I said to Tony at the time was I said you know what I would really just like a credit on the show that way if it becomes really successful. My name is always like in this show and that’s really what I wanted. And over the years I’ve been working with clients and they go for you know I was on this thing and they said your name.

[00:02:19.54] spk_1:
I kept my word every every show, your credit to

[00:02:23.19] spk_2:
this creative producer, Clair Meyerhoff. Yeah. Doug White said that when he was a guest he was like I was on the tony-martignetti show and then at the end they said that you were you were a producer and I was like yes I

[00:02:33.15] spk_1:
am glad that

[00:02:34.33] spk_2:
beautiful with that beautiful

[00:02:35.38] spk_1:
bass voice that he has.

[00:02:36.67] spk_2:
Oh I know he should sell it

[00:02:42.54] spk_1:
Russia, It’s like honey, it’s like a sweet honey. It’s wonderful. So what’s going on with you and the PG agency?

[00:03:27.44] spk_2:
The agency, the plan giving agency. Well, you know, I’m a creative person as my title suggests on tony-martignetti non profit radio And so I am in the creative space of philanthropy and I kind of specialized in planned giving, which tony um is a very great expert on and so I help non profits make the most out of their burgeoning plan giving programs. And a lot of times it’s just they have nothing. And I come in and I create sort of a nice back end for them and help them talk to them a little bit about talking to their donors about making a gift of a lifetime, like leaving their favorite charity and their estate plans or is the beneficiary of a retirement plan and you know, all those wonderful things in the wonderful world of plan giving.

[00:03:43.84] spk_1:
Cool. Yes, I do know a couple things about it a lot and uh, welcome the creative energy that, that

[00:04:08.14] spk_2:
you bring. Not only I, but I learned a lot from you tony that’s how we first met, because I was writing an article for something and I, you were my expert and then I said, you know, I have to write this stuff and sometimes I don’t understand. And you said, well, you can reach out to me if you have a question about something. And I did, I’d say, well, what’s this or what’s that? And you’d explain it really well. And I still remember a lot of the things that you told me at the very beginning and I use those in my, in my practice today, such as, you know, spending a lot of time trying to reach and engage younger donors and tony was like, don’t you want the money sooner.

[00:04:17.47] spk_1:
I remember you were writing that article, I remember who you were writing it for two. Yes,

[00:04:22.27] spk_2:
yes, yes.

[00:04:34.44] spk_1:
That, that brought us together. Yes. And then I knew you had a background in radio. And so I I saw your, I saw your wisdom about starting a radio show. That’s, that’s the podcast of

[00:04:52.84] spk_2:
course. Exactly, Exactly. And so you built it out really as a radio show and it’s, it’s cool that way because a lot of times podcasts are kind of like podcasting, but if you do more, if you treat it more like a radio show, it’s a lot more robust and that’s what yours is. You have this very robust quote podcast that’s really more like a traditional radio show with a lot of elements that breaks and things like that. And so it’s really a radio show rather than a podcast to me

[00:05:02.14] spk_1:
and no, no, no surprise at that because Claire Meyerhoff was creative producer. So you, you coached me along and I had some nodules to copy like I was like the car talk guys and uh, but yeah, you were instrumental and help me put some of those elements in and thinking about it as

[00:05:17.06] spk_2:
radio but you did the work. A lot of work.

[00:05:34.24] spk_1:
Oh, thank you. Let’s bring scott stein in scott, Stein, Brooklyn new york composer, composer of our theme song, which we’re gonna hear in full, of course, Brooklyn new york based pianist, songwriter, arranger, conductor and music director. Scott stein music dot com scott. Welcome to the show.

[00:05:38.24] spk_4:
Thank you. Great to see you again, Tony and Claire. That’s uh we feel like we’re getting the band back together after every 50 shows, we get to do this. It’s the reunion

[00:05:47.55] spk_2:
tour where the snow happening

[00:06:00.44] spk_1:
were the snacks. Where’s the craft services? Yeah, no, absolutely scott. I love your, I still love the song, cheap red wine. Uh, it opens and closes every single show. I’m so glad that mutual lawyer friend of ours jo Becker brought us together.

[00:06:08.44] spk_4:
Yeah. My old roommate, back from, back from both of our bachelor days. Ohio

[00:06:11.79] spk_1:
Ohio Ohio State was it?

[00:06:19.34] spk_4:
Uh, I went to Ohio State. He was one of my roommates here in new york. Ah, okay. So

[00:06:21.64] spk_1:
because you’re originally an Ohio

[00:06:22.84] spk_4:
guy, right? I am. I’m originally from Akron Ohio and a graduate of the Ohio State University. Good bucks.

[00:06:30.64] spk_2:
I did not know that all those years. You’re from Akron. It’s near Toledo, right. Akron

[00:06:47.84] spk_4:
actually opposite part of the state. So yeah, well Toledo’s northwestern Ohio’s north. Excuse me. Akron is northeast is close to Cleveland. Oh, okay. You know, it’s okay. Most people mix up Akron and Dayton.

[00:06:52.04] spk_2:
Yes. Well Jaden’s in the south more towards like Louisville.

[00:06:55.21] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s called Cincinnati. The south,

[00:06:58.24] spk_2:
right, Cincinnati

[00:07:00.07] spk_1:
and scott. You just moved? You just did an intra Brooklyn

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
move? I did. I just up the block same street about maybe four blocks north. Uh, yeah, so we moved in on friday. So it’s, it is a wonder that there are not more boxes on either side of me right now. There are some there just out of there, just out of picture right now. So

[00:07:23.82] spk_1:
is non profit radio your first gig since in the new apartment.

[00:07:47.14] spk_4:
Uh, well I guess it’s the first gig in the apartment. I had a gig just outside of the apartment yesterday and another one the day before that. So actually I moved at a rather busy work time, which was a little bit of a balancing act. All right, but we’re with you and then I’m going to be hitting the studio on Tuesday, starting in a new record. Our first session is Tuesday, so because that wasn’t busy enough, I thought I would squeeze in a problem into that because planning is something I am clearly very good at.

[00:08:02.84] spk_2:
Right? And then, and then you took on that catering job and that was really just the end of it all,

[00:08:08.01] spk_4:
you know?

[00:08:10.64] spk_0:
Uh,

[00:08:11.83] spk_4:
that’s, you know,

[00:08:12.79] spk_1:
he’s been doing some political consulting to. Right. Right. So we’re your inaugural gig in your new apartment. That’s what I, I like. I like being inaugural for anything. I find something

[00:08:40.14] spk_4:
inaugural. Yeah. Do I have because I’m not teaching over the summer, which is something I was doing over zoom the whole year um, and uh, and even ransom choir rehearsals over zoom when we’re during the pandemic before we could meet up in person and uh, so, but that’s been off for the last few weeks, last month or so, so yes, so this is the first zoom session in the new apartments.

[00:08:47.88] spk_1:
Outstanding. Very, a milestone to milestone. You’ll always treasure

[00:08:51.54] spk_4:
naturally. Indeed,

[00:08:52.81] spk_1:
it’s good. It’s really good to have you back with the uh, on the anniversary show, on the

[00:09:04.14] spk_4:
11th anniversary. Always, always happy to reconnect and like as they get the band back together. So great! All right,

[00:09:07.94] spk_1:
Claire

[00:09:14.24] spk_2:
tony I have something very important I want to talk about, We’re going to have the very first Tony awards.

[00:09:18.31] spk_0:
Now

[00:10:14.44] spk_2:
you might be thinking listeners that the Tony awards are all about broadway, but they’re not. They’re about guests from tony-martignetti non profit radio Those are the real Tony awards and today we’re going to pepper them throughout our show. So I’d like to give out the very first tony award and you know, an award requires an actual award. And I thought I’d let you guys choose. So should the award be a troll? Blue haired troll? All right. A fossil from Hack alito’s canyon in Coalinga California. These are fossil. Um sand dollars. Mhm. A nun. My friend Marianne gave me because we have a joke about nuns who run and this is a nun who runs or one of my mother’s antique little things that I saw and I thought, well that looks like an award. So what should we cheers guys troll fossil. None falls. That looks like an

[00:10:18.89] spk_4:
award. Well, when you mentioned none to broadway shows came to mind when with the sound of music and the other was sister act. So that gets my vote.

[00:11:24.14] spk_2:
All right, that’s going to be the award and not that everybody’s going to see it, but we’re not going to keep talking about. It’s a little it’s a little new guys will see it. We’ll just say it’s a little nun doll. It’s a little none. It runs you go like that. It runs across the counter. It’s like my little thing and Marianne, we joke about it a lot. Okay, so for the very first Tony award given out the award for very first guest goes to Yes, we’ll just do a little music under music. Music, Music, Music, dramatic, dramatic, tony Award. Music. Hi. And the award for very first guest goes to Steve Imparato Steve. Here’s your reward. Steve’s not here. I’ll accept in his in his accidents. So he was the very first guest on Tony-Martignetti non profit radio on July 23, 2010. So Tony how do you recall steve’s appearance on the show?

[00:11:40.94] spk_1:
Uh Well it was at that time it was the tony-martignetti show. Uh It was actually, I I hesitate to correct my esteemed creative producer. It was July 16. You’re you’re confused,

[00:11:42.12] spk_2:
You gave your 7 23. Okay, never mind

[00:11:45.97] spk_1:
You were July 23, I just

[00:11:48.45] spk_2:
Saw this date. Okay, okay, July 2013

[00:12:02.64] spk_1:
By Claire Meyerhoff came on the show on July 23 a week later, after Steve the show was changed, it was no longer the tony-martignetti show because you claire explained to me that nobody knows what the hell tony-martignetti show

[00:12:06.74] spk_2:
is right, is about is it about cooking, Is it about trolls? Like what is it about? So I thought I said to him tony you just have to have the word non profit in there somewhere. Just shove the word non profit into your, into your title,

[00:12:38.54] spk_1:
has to have it shoved in tony-martignetti and nonprofit radio And so by the second week of of the show which was now newly named so you were on July 23, 2016 you were on the first tony-martignetti non profit radio Claremore off talking about uh storytelling

[00:12:57.24] spk_2:
Amazing. So that was 10, 11, almost 11 years, 11, it is 11 years ago, it is 11, well on the 23rd it’ll be 11 years. I expect a nice gift. I want a Bugatti and a villa on lake como. Thank you. I will take nothing less.

[00:12:59.22] spk_1:
Very italian themed. Okay, well we’ll give you is a nun, we have a doll. None for you

[00:13:04.10] spk_2:
know I already have that for mary.

[00:13:06.01] spk_1:
We won’t take yours away. How about that?

[00:13:09.19] spk_2:
Okay, I’ll get another one. She’ll have a little friend. I’ll give it to Marion.

[00:13:13.24] spk_1:
But that was the very first show and you were on the very second show.

[00:13:26.64] spk_2:
I was all right. So we have another award to give out scott a little music for atmosphere. Thank you. And the second Tony award goes to the Tony award for longest distance guest. That’s the guest who phoned in from the furthest away it is. Let’s open the envelope. Matt Barnett from Sydney Australia on november 30th 2020 matt, here’s your award tony Tell us about matt

[00:13:56.14] spk_1:
matt Barnett is the papa bear. He calls himself papa bear of his company, which is Bond Euro and they do personalized videos. So he’s the ceo of bonds Euro, but his title is papa bear. And uh yeah, he zoomed with me from Sydney Australia as you said,

[00:14:05.14] spk_2:
That’s fabulous with a big time difference as well. So he had to accommodate that.

[00:14:20.34] spk_1:
Uh, we, we both, yeah, I think I was up a little early and he was up a little late. Uh, one of the other, I think I was like nine o’clock and maybe he was seven or eight in the morning the next day. Something like that. Some, something like that.

[00:14:29.64] spk_2:
Yeah, wow, that’s, that’s awesome. All right. We have, we have another Tony award and it is for the guest who came closest to having a heart attack in the studio. And that award goes to Dennis Miller, tony Tell us about Dennis

[00:15:06.34] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis ran a long way from, from, I think the nearest spot that a cab could drop him off. This was the very first studio on West 72nd Street and he was stuck in us. Uh he was stuck in traffic and he uh it wasn’t, I’m pretty sure it was not the subway, he was stuck in traffic, he told the cabbie he would just bail out and uh he hooked it a couple of blocks and

[00:15:09.22] spk_2:
uh

[00:15:13.14] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis is not spelt, so he was, he was a little red, he was a little red cheeked and heavy breathing and then you had to come up the stairs, one story.

[00:15:20.34] spk_2:
I remember

[00:15:27.44] spk_1:
one flight of stairs to add a little more exercise to his couple block run. Um so I we did the best SAm and I remember SAm the

[00:15:31.48] spk_2:
producer. Yes, I know SAm. Well,

[00:15:37.24] spk_1:
uh we did the best to calm him down and uh I did a little improv and then we brought him in and he was fine. Dennis was fine and he was brilliant.

[00:15:41.79] spk_2:
And so who is Dennis Miller? What does he do? And why was he a nonprofit radio

[00:15:45.68] spk_1:
Dennis Miller is a frequent writer about board’s approval board, very important, a strategic planning with your board retreat,

[00:15:56.04] spk_2:
yep,

[00:15:56.74] spk_1:
we were talking about, we have been talking about the board and fundraising, but

[00:16:01.94] spk_2:
it was right, Yes, that’s that’s that’s enough to give you a heart attack right there, trying to get your board to do some fundraising. Very

[00:16:11.64] spk_1:
good claire, that’s Dennis Miller,

[00:16:28.94] spk_2:
that’s Dennis Miller. Okay. And we have a we have a final in this little segment, this is the final tony award for, for this, this little segment of our show and it goes to the Tony Award, goes to the weirdest guest and the weirdest guest is Sandor Katz, tony I’ll let you explain our weirdest guests, Sand or cats and the lessons you’ve learned.

[00:17:18.34] spk_1:
Yes, you learned a lesson. I should have consulted you first or you know, maybe I did and you advised me against it and I, uh stupidly you can’t be ignored your advice. I don’t remember what sequence it was, but it was my, it was my original idea. I’m not, I’m not putting that on you. I thought, well it’s a podcast for nonprofit folks, but maybe, you know, folks and nonprofits have multidimensional lives, so maybe I can capture some of the, some of that breath in, in the non profit radio podcast. And I invited someone to come on and talk about fermentation implementation. Uh, yeah, as you said, his name was Sandor Katz, but he, he called himself Sander crowd because sauerkraut is a

[00:17:20.84] spk_2:
popular, uh, that’s true, it is,

[00:17:23.92] spk_1:
This was August 2nd of 2013,

[00:18:00.44] spk_2:
so three years in, you decided let’s let’s shake it up a little bit. Let’s have some fermenting topics now. I remember that because I think you had a wine person on one time, like you’ve done a couple of them where you thought, well let’s do like some other stuff. And I said, well tony it’s, it’s better to just stick like stay with the message. Like stay with what the show is about like on car talk. They don’t like have a nonprofit segment on car talk. They talk about cars unless it’s like something about like, you know, cars with nonprofits. Like if like if Sandor Katz had run like the, you know, the fermentation 501 C3, right? The nonprofit groups supporting um fermentation?

[00:18:05.34] spk_1:
Yes, that would have been ideal. That would have been that he had no connection to night connection to non profit He was the furthest thing I could find from nonprofits and

[00:18:13.33] spk_2:
he talked a long time and tony just we’re both in the studio and I’m like, I’m giving tony like the stink eye and I’m like, yeah, tony that’s what that’s all about. He’s like, this guy is talking about the pickles and

[00:18:50.54] spk_1:
chocolate, coffee, sauerkraut wine, all these champagne versus wine. So yeah, I learned a lesson. I learned a lot and uh claire you were spot on podcasts are about narrow and deep, you take your narrow niche and you run deep in it and you don’t try to bring in fermentation or uh, or uh wine enthusiasm or anything else. So at

[00:19:08.04] spk_2:
least it was like a really like weird one that we can still talk about years later. It’s, it’s not like the tipping point with something about like a guy who does custom framing or something like that wouldn’t be that funny, but like this guy was all about the fermenting and now we can we can joke about that. But but yes, he got the Tony awards, so we’ll have to send that to him and maybe he will send us a lifetime supply of sauerkraut.

[00:19:14.64] spk_1:
All

[00:19:19.24] spk_2:
right, we’re moving on.

[00:19:37.84] spk_1:
We have someone who just joined us. We will get to your song into the 2nd Scott in a few minutes. Let’s bring in, let’s bring in as soon as he piers. This is Stefan, Stefan. Szabo. Best to Stefan welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:19:44.14] spk_3:
Hey, nice to meet you. Happy to be here.

[00:19:47.94] spk_1:
Thank you. Did I say your name right? I wanna make sure is it sure best to?

[00:19:51.84] spk_3:
Oh perfect, very nice.

[00:19:53.98] spk_1:
It’s

[00:19:54.91] spk_2:
just the way it looks. It’s a beautiful name, Stefan Sebesta.

[00:19:58.84] spk_3:
Thanks

[00:20:00.05] spk_1:
Stephanie is Ceo of one of our sponsors, our newest sponsor, Send In Blue, which is a digital marketing platform, Stefan thanks so much for joining us.

[00:20:11.04] spk_3:
Thanks and congrats on your 550th show your 11 year anniversary.

[00:20:26.44] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m glad you could be with us. Thank you. Um so tell us a little about sending Blue. Want to give you a couple of minutes to uh talk about this digital marketing platform and how sending Blue helps nonprofits.

[00:21:34.64] spk_3:
Sure, happy to do so, so sad. And blue, you know, as we were founded in in 2012, we really have this vision of helping small and medium businesses and many nonprofits are fall into this category to help these kind of business is to be on equal footing with the big players, the amazons of this world and to empower them and enable them to do similar marketing, online marketing activities. So we started with email marketing and then added more and more channels over time. And our really, our our vision is to provide a very easy to use, very affordable tool to small and medium businesses to grow there, to grow their revenue to for nonprofits, you know, um fundraising is very important. So we give a lot of tools that you can use apart from email marketing, you can have a landing page generator facebook as the chat chat about that you can put on your website, Syria. Um, and so we’ve added more and more functionality and it’s, you know, that’s really what what’s in blue stands for.

[00:21:43.44] spk_1:
So like full spectrum enterprise level digital marketing,

[00:21:44.79] spk_3:
but enterprise

[00:21:46.35] spk_1:
enterprise, but enterprise, like enterprise quality

[00:22:12.54] spk_3:
for non profits At at at a price that’s really affordable for for for small businesses. And that’s easy to use where you don’t need to have maybe an 80 team or a dedicated marketing manager. You can, everything is very visual. You can use our drag and drop editor, create planning pages or emails and it’s it’s really easy to to set up campaigns and become successful. And like I said, be on equal footing with these bigger players that have much higher budgets, of course.

[00:22:34.44] spk_1:
Cool. Right. So you get that quality without the enterprise level pricing, That’s exactly right, awesome. So distinguish between some sending blue and some of the bigger names that may or may not be, you know, appropriate, like, you know, constant contact and mail chimp what we’re sending blue, what is sending blue do that? These guys don’t

[00:23:50.64] spk_3:
phenomena. So one thing I mentioned is really, it’s a very comprehensive tool, right? We offer all these different channels that you can combine and make your online marketing extremely powerful With that. Apart from that we, You know, we offer very affordable product. We have very good customer service basically 24/7 and six different languages. So that’s something that nobody, nobody else offers in our industry either. And overall, you know, it’s a lot of features and maybe there are different um preferences for for each customer. But We really targeted white audience. We have over 300,000 paying customers worldwide. Originally the European company and you know, for for one person may be the functionality is more important for the other one that’s a customer service for another one. Maybe it might be the data privacy regulations that we have to follow european, G D P R C C A and so on. So we’re really, really focused on that as well. Um and for for others who might just be, you know, the ease of, of, of using the product. So um it’s different for for each customer basically.

[00:24:26.94] spk_1:
Cool. Alright. Easy to use price for nonprofits. Um and non profit radio listeners get a free month. Yes. And in blue uh free straight out exactly. You go to the listener landing page at send in blue aptly named. That’s easy to remember. Yeah, Stefan. Thanks so much. Real pleasure. And and and thank you. Thank you. And thanks to the team. It’s sending blue for your, your sponsorship of nonprofit radio Thank you so much.

[00:24:35.94] spk_3:
No problem. Thanks.

[00:24:40.11] spk_1:
Thanks so

[00:24:40.78] spk_3:
much.

[00:24:45.04] spk_1:
That’s fine. You got a song for us?

[00:24:48.54] spk_4:
I do. It’s about fermentation

[00:24:50.94] spk_2:
awesome.

[00:24:54.34] spk_4:
That may or may not be true.

[00:24:56.94] spk_1:
All right, you got for

[00:26:08.94] spk_4:
us. I’m gonna play this song off the new record that we’re gonna be doing uh starting tomorrow. Um uh the song is called on my way and it’s about a trip that I took to New Orleans and um I everywhere I went although I you could still kind of see um like remnants of what happened during hurricane Katrina if you look closely enough. And and I had I had been there initially a couple of years after Katrina and hadn’t gone back since uh this this trip was about two years ago and and I was just on one hand I was just taking it in because I love New Orleans, I love just hanging out there. Obviously it’s a great music city. Um But you you kind of scratch under the service and you can see you know some of the scars of what happened. And I thought that was just a really interesting um dichotomy there. So that’s that’s a little bit of what informed this song. So this is this is called on my way. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:29:28.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m on my way. I could still find my way out of the ordinary back into the frame. But it takes some of that comfort and it cast it aside, slip out of the jacket. It’s the ball of the way outside. The wind is at my back to push me through the sorrow way through the storm And the swell as for the destination. It’s too early to tell there in a while in the solace. Ain’t no river a trust ain’t no poetry to this life baby. We only do what we must and I cannot step the time. I can only stand in wonder and I grab a hold of the ball Bowlby older I breathe different and I got a swagger in my stride. I’m walking through the war. There’s the mighty river at my side but new Orleans bears the scars now and it’s shaping in its storm, which is the threat of rain, reminds her of the memories of the storm. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Take all that I am. Take all that I was Yeah. Try to pull myself together the right kind of bus. Take all of my love, take all of my sins. Ain’t no use trying to polish up the mess that I’ve been. But I will be better. I will be better better than before. Uh huh. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Who scott stone?

[00:29:32.44] spk_1:
Thanks scott stein. Wonderful,

[00:29:33.58] spk_2:
thank you, lovely, thank

[00:29:35.34] spk_1:
you. Excellent. And that’s going to be on the new album. Do you know the name of the new album

[00:29:39.37] spk_4:
scott? I don’t just yet, I’ve got some ideas I’m kicking around but it’s uh we’re pretty early in the process right now.

[00:29:50.74] spk_1:
You’re starting recording tomorrow. Indeed, I didn’t know creative process runs.

[00:30:12.04] spk_4:
It depends sometimes, like I’ve got an idea, you know, coming out of the gate. Uh, sometimes I have one, I don’t want to share it right away. Sometimes one record the woman with cheap red wine. I think I came up with the title of that record jukebox. Uh, we were mastering the record, we were all done and I still didn’t have a title. And uh, so it happens when it happens.

[00:30:16.94] spk_1:
Okay, okay, mastering. That’s one of those insider terms. I love

[00:30:19.13] spk_4:
that. That’s the last, it’s the last step of the last thing you do and then it’s done. You

[00:30:30.34] spk_1:
know the lingo, you’re an insider musical insider. I know. All right, Claire.

[00:30:32.54] spk_2:
I think we have more Tony awards to give out. So do we.

[00:30:37.44] spk_0:
I think we do.

[00:31:11.74] spk_2:
I would like to present the Tony Award for 2021 to most newsworthy guests on the Tony-Martignetti nonprofit radio show and the Tony award for most news where the guest goes to Barbara Newhouse, the ceo of A. L. S. The A. L. S Association and the ice bucket challenge competition that was so well known and successful back in the day. And tony nabbed that high profile guest. Yes, yes,

[00:31:51.84] spk_1:
Indeed. That was that was October of 2014, 3, 2014. May recall, uh, if you were working around nonprofits then the, the ice bucket challenge. It was the summer of 2014 and it pretty much wrapped up by labor day of 2014. So early October I got Barbara Newhouse on the show and actually recorded that in the Chronicle of philanthropy office in Washington, D. C. That was a collaboration between non profit radio and the Chronicle of philanthropy. They promoted it and I did too. And I did the interview with Barbara Newhouse.

[00:32:12.74] spk_2:
Really, that’s wonderful. And now I have another award to give out and it’s for Tony’s favorite guests. So the Tony award for favorite guest goes to and it’s a tie Tony’s favorite guests receiving the Tony award are Amy sample Ward and jean to the hockey. I can never say his name. Right. I’m a terrible

[00:32:19.64] spk_0:
host. Yeah, I couldn’t pick just one of

[00:32:20.79] spk_1:
you. Welcome. Welcome. Hey, you are my favorite. Together. You are my favorite. Get

[00:32:26.03] spk_2:
your tony award

[00:32:28.04] spk_0:
or

[00:32:30.31] spk_2:
are you going to Patrol?

[00:32:32.14] spk_5:
I am very happy to share with jean.

[00:32:35.54] spk_7:
Me too, Amy, thank you for the Auto

[00:32:49.44] spk_1:
tony include Absolutely, absolutely. Together. My favorite guest, Uh, Jean, Jean started on nonprofit radio on, on show number seven show number. So

[00:32:57.14] spk_2:
right, that’s right. So he also wins the award for longest running guest jean. He gets to awards 20

[00:32:58.81] spk_7:
10 I think

[00:33:10.94] spk_1:
It was, it was 27 absolutely. It was, it was August 27 of 2010. Exactly right. That was the 7th show we had just started the month before. And Amy joined non profit radio on the 100th show.

[00:33:18.14] spk_5:
Yes, because I remember thinking like there’s all this stuff going on. What what is this show? You know,

[00:33:30.64] spk_1:
I didn’t know I wasn’t sure myself. So that would have been the 100th show would have been July of 2012 and with us ever since. So welcome. Welcome to the anniversary. Welcome

[00:33:36.92] spk_7:
congrats.

[00:34:10.74] spk_1:
Thank you. Thanks very much and you get you’re both gonna stay with us. Right, both of you are gonna stay for the duration. All right. All right. Um Amy, what’s what’s up at and 10 I should have said Amy, sample ward of course are technology and social media contributor naturally, you all know, you all know Amy and jeanne aimee Ceo of N 10 at 10 10 dot org. And AMY is at AMy R S Ward. What’s up in the MERS Ward or the N 10 World? You what’s up there?

[00:34:55.54] spk_5:
We Well, lots of good things. I mean, you know, we’re now in our Fy 22 Every, every year we get to like put stuff behind us, no more of the last 12 months, you know? Um I mean right now we’re getting ready to launch 22 NTC, you know, sessions, emissions folks have been tons of folks already volunteered to be on the committee’s. So doing all of that planning now and getting ready. I think that will be launched or announced to the community in like two weeks. So stand by watch that inbox. Get ready to pencil things into your calendar.

[00:34:57.84] spk_1:
Um Okay. 22 T. C. The nonprofit technology conference. Yeah. Where is that where is that going to be?

[00:35:06.54] spk_5:
I think that’s part of

[00:35:07.62] spk_1:
the is that part of the reveal reveal?

[00:35:11.31] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:35:12.25] spk_5:
Yes. Can

[00:35:13.54] spk_2:
you give us a hint? I

[00:35:22.54] spk_5:
can say all of you are invited and all of you can definitely make it.

[00:35:23.74] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:35:37.34] spk_1:
Okay Jean. Okay we’re waiting up so a couple of weeks we’re gonna hear about 20-80. Okay Jeanne, what’s going out? Gene of course our legal contributor uh Principal of

[00:35:39.05] spk_5:
Jean jean will appreciate the way that I nimbly answered your question,

[00:35:44.94] spk_7:
definitely looking at a legal second career

[00:35:47.88] spk_5:
Amy

[00:36:09.43] spk_1:
Jeanne, our legal contributor. He’s a principal attorney at neo the nonprofit and exempt organization law group in san Francisco Neo law group dot com. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog, which everyone should be subscribing to. It’s Simple Gene. It breaks things down. That’s why he’s our legal contributor. No, no.

[00:36:14.58] spk_5:
We email the intent board with links to jeans blog. Anytime they ask us a question, we don’t need to answer this. Gene already answered this. Here’s the answer. Go read this blog post jean. Can I ask you a question and take over the show.

[00:36:27.13] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:37:43.53] spk_5:
So we, because Anton puts on a big conference, um, we are connected to lots of other event planners and other organizations, you know, that have the big enough events where you’re like conventions and our hotel contracts, all these different pieces, you know, and really until a month or so ago, if you had contracts, it was, it was scary and stressful, but you were going to get out of them because you were legally not allowed to have events, you know? But now Covid’s over or something and like no more restrictions. So organizations that had contracts, you know, maybe for this summer and thought, okay, well we don’t have to worry. Like obviously we can’t have events like that can be over. Will plan something else are now stuck in this like, oh, I guess we are going to be beholden to these legal contracts that have massive fines because you know, the governor of whatever state is no longer barred events of, of a certain size or something, you know, Are you seeing, are you seeing folks trying to navigate that or did they somehow successfully negotiate out and we haven’t heard from them or what are you seeing in that world?

[00:38:40.02] spk_7:
So in anticipation of Tony’s question to me about what was going on, that’s a lot of what’s going on right now. Organizations trying to figure out post covid kind of post covid or wherever we happen to be now, how do we proceed? And yeah, having provision in the contract not to sell lawyers services, but right now is a time before you enter into a big contract for an event. You want to make sure you’ve got language in there that allocates risk and protects you. So to the extent you can and most contracts are not like rental card contracts where you have to agree to whatever they put in, most of them can be negotiated, that’s something to think of. And so tony great summer a lot of work. A lot of changes going on here. I hope everything’s been going well with you two.

[00:38:45.22] spk_1:
Oh absolutely. Um and Amy is going to get a bill from you for a legal consultation and I get a 30% cut of that because it’s cutting into non profit radio I like I like how she asked like how Amy asked jean, can I ask you a question and take over the show? She didn’t ask jean, ask the host,

[00:39:01.32] spk_2:
can I ask a question? Let’s keep

[00:39:27.02] spk_1:
advice for intend for free. Can I do that? I shouldn’t ask. All right. Uh no, we’re glad to help. We’re here to help nonprofits. We’re here to help nonprofits of course. And I want to introduce both of you to Scott. Stein, who you’ve not met. Scott is the composer of cheap red wine, which is our theme song that you hear at the intro and outro of every single, every single day.

[00:39:27.54] spk_5:
Didn’t we meet last july in this same

[00:39:30.32] spk_0:
setup

[00:39:36.52] spk_4:
I was gonna say Yeah, I think we did meet over zoom about a year ago.

[00:39:37.66] spk_1:
Okay, it would have been a year ago. Alright, well, back

[00:39:43.50] spk_7:
and Scott’s composition is incredible. So, the theme song,

[00:39:49.82] spk_1:
we all love cheap red wine. Absolutely. We’re going to hear it. We’re gonna hear it later on Scott. You’ve got another song for us right now though. Yeah,

[00:41:00.41] spk_4:
yeah, absolutely. I’ll do it off the forthcoming new record. Actually. I I think I did this one on your show, probably the lesson. We did it in person. I’m gonna do it again because we’re about to go record it. Um But I wrote it the morning of the show. I’d had this chorus kicking around in my head for several months. And remember I that morning I had gone, I dropped my my son off at daycare, who’s now too. So we probably about six months old at that point. And um after I got home, I had about maybe, 2030 minutes before I had to leave to come meet with you and I was like, go I just had my second cup of coffee. It kicked in. One of my favorite songwriters, dan Wilson is fond of saying that human songwriters are machines, you input espresso and songs come out. So, and that’s kind of what happened. So I’m paraphrasing, he said it more eloquently than I did. Alright. But anyway, so this is uh, so the two that was debuted on your show a couple years ago, I’m gonna rip res it here. I remember,

[00:41:12.75] spk_1:
I remember you telling that story,

[00:41:25.01] spk_4:
please. Yeah, it was that morning and I just like there there it was, oh, that’s what that song is supposed to be. So here it is. Uh, this is called, It’s a Good Life. Oh, I had to remember what key it was in. All right. Here we go.

[00:45:37.39] spk_0:
Uh huh. Yeah, I got some inside information. Someone slipped me a copy of the master plan. My sources are were reliable with the rental language. I don’t understand. You know, I’ve always been a cynic since the day. I can remember ways skipping past silver lightings. Always looking for the snow in september. But baby baby baby is a good high Oh baby baby. It’s a good hi. No matter who you are, you can’t see the nearest store. Baby baby. It’s a good I some days you’re offer busy. Some days you can’t get a damn thing. You’ve done. Some days you get the car keys. Some days it’s the keys. The thing that giants that you love lying. Very good reasons. But baby baby baby. It’s a good uh Oh, it’s a good lot. No matter how you sing the song, there’s always someone singing along baby baby, it’s good, allow once was up getting her what? Baby, baby, baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good I don’t, you stick to what you know, let me fly watching. Oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Yeah.

[00:45:54.59] spk_1:
Who scott stein thanks, I love that. Of course. I love the song debuted on nonprofit radio a couple of years ago. World world premiere was

[00:45:56.40] spk_4:
non profit here. It was an hour long, it was an hour old, that newborn.

[00:46:21.28] spk_1:
Thank you. Beautiful scott. Thank you scott stein scott stein music dot com. We had a couple of folks, uh, we had a couple of folks join us, another sponsor of nonprofit radio from turn to communications. Peter Pan a pento and scott. Westcott, both partners. That turn to Peter scott Welcome.

[00:46:24.68] spk_6:
Great to be here. And we, we came together even though we worked six hours apart. This was such a big occasion for us. I drove up to Erie pennsylvania to be here. So,

[00:46:34.78] spk_1:
uh, well and Scott living in here. He knows what a sacrifice that was.

[00:46:38.97] spk_8:
Yeah, it’s serious, but it’s not in the winner. So I mean, it’s a little bit, Yeah.

[00:46:57.68] spk_1:
Okay, Welcome. Welcome to the, to the anniversary show. Peter Scott for having us and, and thank you for your sponsorship as well. Grateful, grateful for that. Thank you. Turn to communications Media pr For, for nonprofits. Tell us tell us a little more detail than I’m able to go into in my 32nd sponsored messages.

[00:47:36.48] spk_6:
Sure. So, um, Scott and I started turn to communications about four years ago and we’ve been working, um, for quite a while building on our background as journalists and folks who’ve worked in and around the sector for a number of years, um, to help nonprofits um, tell their stories more effectively in the media and also be much, um, much clearer and more direct with reaching their target audiences through their content. So we work with quite a few community foundations, a number of national and local nonprofits and have really enjoyed, uh, helping nonprofits raise awareness about their work, um, dr action and and get results on some of their advocacy campaigns. And in some cases, raise some more money to

[00:48:12.77] spk_1:
scott. I’m often talking about the relationships that you can help folks build with media outlets. And as I’m doing the sponsor messages. Um, so, you know, for the weekly shows, talk about a little about the value of those relationships, how you build those relationships with media when when you’re not looking to be quoted or, or be a source.

[00:49:00.87] spk_8:
Yeah, so I think it’s, you know, there’s some legwork there and it’s a matter of, you know, first of all understanding what the journalists are looking for, what they need, and then voting that relationship over time, uh, being as useful as possible to them, you know, because they’re obviously swamped these days. I mean, they get hundreds of emails a day, you know, everyone pitching a story. So we really do focus on that relationship, you know, getting, you know, journalists what they’re working on what their beat is. Um, so, hey, we can be top of mind for them, you know, when they are doing a story and be just being able to give them information and get them sources in in the fastest way possible. So, uh, that ended up being a beneficial

[00:49:23.27] spk_6:
relationship for everybody, really does. And I think, you know, so much of our approach to media relations is to almost treat, um, not just our clients as clients, but the journalists themselves as clients. And in some cases finding ways to to be support to them, um, when it doesn’t necessarily benefit the organizations we work with, but building trust with them, making sure if if we can’t get them an answer or get them the people they need through our network, um, reaching out and connecting them with people who we might not be working with so that we can, you know, provide them with value and build

[00:49:51.87] spk_1:
trust. And isn’t that just basic, that’s just basic relationship building in any in any in any network or bunch of friends, you know, you get to know each other and you help each other when when someone needs help you. And there’s and there’s no, you know, there’s no benefit for you. You don’t even think about

[00:49:56.12] spk_8:
that journalists or human beings.

[00:49:59.40] spk_1:
I’ve heard, I’ve heard rumors to that effect. Yes.

[00:50:07.86] spk_2:
Well as a journalist, as a, as a, as a working longtime journalist, we are human. Absolutely. But then we leave and work for nonprofits and uh,

[00:50:14.08] spk_1:
you know,

[00:50:14.32] spk_8:
I think you’re right Tony, I mean, basically the same same fundamentals

[00:50:40.66] spk_1:
and you both are journalists. So you’ve gotten, you’ve been on the receiving end of thousands of pitches, tens of thousands through the years. Peter used to be at the Chronicle of philanthropy. So you have a special niche within nonprofits. Um, so the two of you together, you know, it’s a, it’s an ideal relationship. And uh, and I’m, I’m pleased to say tell folks that, that the plane giving accelerator that I have is a, is a, is a client of turn two.

[00:51:06.96] spk_6:
That’s right. And uh, yeah, so tony Uh, you know, we, we often tell the story on your anniversary shows about how, um, you came into the Chronicle office back when I was working there with the idea for tony-martignetti non profit radio And we actually did a kind of a parallel podcast through the Chronicle for a number of years to so tony was a podcasting pioneer, which

[00:51:52.86] spk_1:
thank you maybe maybe just an early adopter, an early adopter, maybe you’re being degenerate, but thank you, thank you. Yeah. And you can find that old collaboration that I did with the, uh, with, with the Chronicle of philanthropy. It’s called fundraising fundamentals. It ran about four or 5 years, Much shorter, like 12, 10, 12, 15 minutes was the longest episode we ever did. And but it’s still out, it’s still on apple podcasts and I don’t know about other sites, but folks mentioned it to me occasionally fundraising fundamentals and that was peter and I collaborated on that, but that created that so long running relationship. Thanks thanks for and again, thanks for your sponsorship. Turn to thank you

[00:51:58.36] spk_6:
so thrilled to thrilled to have the partnership and you have such a great audience in such great guess. We’re really thrilled to be associated with it.

[00:52:21.55] spk_1:
Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks to both of you. Oh my pleasure. Um you’re welcome to hang out if you like guys, we’re uh we’re gonna give out some more Tony awards. Claire has some more Tony awards and I should have said uh you all are stuck with a lackluster host, you know that you know that by now I should have said that uh these are the authentic tony awards, those imposter awards on broadway, their name for their name for someone named Antoinette Perry, she’s not, her name isn’t even tony it’s T. O. And I Internet is T. O. And I. But they change it to T. O. N. Y. Awards. I don’t know why they made it a masculine when it was named for a woman. Why did they do that? It’s all about the imposters, imposters

[00:52:50.74] spk_2:
imposters. So they give these awards for what were you know, writing a whole broadway show and performing it on a stage in front of thousands of people and creating joy for millions. Got really come on that all about

[00:53:06.75] spk_1:
the real awards are right. Really? What’s

[00:53:08.11] spk_4:
got its cake? It’s not it’s no work at all

[00:53:11.12] spk_1:
knew scott would take offense at that. Um there’s yeah, no, this is the real these are the real Tony awards right here, Claire you have you have a couple of

[00:53:20.57] spk_2:
couple. We have, we have a couple more awards. Not too many, but the next Tony award. And let me get my

[00:53:28.85] spk_0:
or award the nun the

[00:53:30.29] spk_2:
Tony award for most famous guest on tony-martignetti non profit radio goes to dan Pallotta. tony Tell us about dan Pallotta.

[00:54:10.84] spk_1:
That was April 3, 2015 uh he had a famous or infamous depending on your perspective. Ted Talk called the way something like the way we think about charities or the way we look at charities is all wrong and it was provocative and he got a lot of fame for that he had or infamy again uh when you look at it. Um so millions of views widely, widely um quoted and interviewed Peter you may know did you? I’m sure the Chronicle certainly covered dan Pallotta and his ted talk.

[00:54:19.44] spk_6:
Yes, yes, it got a lot of attention around that time. I was still at the Chronicle back then and you know, I interviewed dan a few times and and he wrote quite a bit of he wrote some provocative op ed pieces back in the day to certainly a big name in the field, although not as much so now. I don’t think

[00:54:47.94] spk_5:
he even was a keynote at the end. You see Peter, do you remember what year that was? It was before I was Ceo, So it so it was not

[00:54:48.82] spk_2:
2013.

[00:54:53.34] spk_5:
It had to have been before 20 12 2011.

[00:54:55.64] spk_6:
It was really yes. Yes. But

[00:55:01.24] spk_5:
I mean his keynote was the same, you know,

[00:55:02.84] spk_0:
topic. Yes, yes.

[00:55:05.74] spk_7:
We didn’t show Tony responding to one of Dan’s offense or his TED Talk in 2013 as well. So we talked about it as

[00:55:13.69] spk_1:
well. That’s right. We did a little postmortem about the issues that he raised. Exactly jean. Thank you.

[00:55:27.54] spk_2:
Interesting. And we have another Tony award that goes to the and I’m going to lower my voice. Softest spoken, famous guest. So the softest spoken famous guest award, Tony award goes to not dan Pallotta, it goes to Craig Newmark, the founder of craigslist, tony Tell us more,

[00:56:07.93] spk_1:
Craig. Newmark is terrific. You know, he founded Craig’s, you have to say Craig Newmark, the founder of Craigslist because nobody knows it because he’s so modest, you know, uh he didn’t turn craigslist into a billion dollar platform uh like so many tech entrepreneurs do. He resisted that. And so, you know, he we don’t know his name the way we know other tech entrepreneurs who can remain unnamed because we all know who they are, Right? So you have to say

[00:56:08.96] spk_5:
being sued by the federal government or what they’ve done with their social media platforms.

[00:56:43.43] spk_1:
Yes. Being sued by the former guy, the former president as well. So Craig Newmark is the founder of craigslist. He resisted the temptation to turn it into a billion dollar platform. He kept it free or very, very low cost and and craigslist exploded for that. And that just exemplifies his character is so you know, he’s modest, he’s soft spoken. Uh and so that’s why he’s got to be non profit radios, most softest spoken famous guests.

[00:56:54.63] spk_2:
And we have one final Tony Award. It’s a very important one. Yeah. And the Tony award for best original score. The Tony award goes to scott stein for a cheap red wine.

[00:57:01.48] spk_0:
Wait till I

[00:57:05.88] spk_4:
have to play underscoring for that

[00:57:07.90] spk_2:
for your own award. Yes, you got to do it all. You’re the only music I hear

[00:57:12.55] spk_4:
stuck. I’m stuck in the orchestra pit, even when I’m getting

[00:57:20.13] spk_2:
congratulations scott. Absolutely. Now you can say now you can say Tony award winning composer scott. Stein

[00:57:26.74] spk_0:
really

[00:57:28.64] spk_2:
with a

[00:57:29.03] spk_5:
little after a big

[00:57:31.25] spk_2:
let’s ask Gina, big asterisk

[00:57:34.67] spk_1:
and, and, and, and note, put it at the end. Not, not the footnote, it’s easier to meet, put it at the end.

[00:57:41.33] spk_4:
Uh, tony-martignetti I’m a big baseball fan. So any award that comes with an asterisk, you know, like,

[00:57:46.83] spk_1:
all

[00:57:47.91] spk_4:
right. Like all the batting titles from like

[00:57:49.84] spk_2:
Pete Rose or

[00:57:51.19] spk_4:
barry bonds is anyway, but thank you.

[00:58:05.72] spk_1:
Absolutely. I love cheap red wine. It’s been our theme song listeners have heard it at the beginning and the end of every single show for many years, many years since we got brought together by a lawyer friend, I mentioned,

[00:58:19.82] spk_4:
uh, josh, Good name of mine. Exactly, joseph, but his name is, joseph goes by josh. But so thank you josh. If you’re I hope you’re out there listening to this right now, so cool.

[00:58:51.32] spk_1:
Thank you josh. Indeed. And I want to thank everybody it’s time for. Thanks Claire Meyerhoff, thank you for co hosting. Thank you for being non profit radios creative producer. You’ll find Claire on linkedin and the company is the planned giving agency PG agency dot com scott Stein. Love it scott. Thank you. Thank you so much. Every anniversary show, I always look forward to it. Thank you very much. You’ll find scott at scott stein music dot com and a new album coming shortly. The recording starts tomorrow, so we don’t really

[00:59:00.52] spk_4:
know. But fall, fall, maybe winter. We’ll see. We’ll see how long this takes

[00:59:43.12] spk_1:
scott stein music dot com. We’ll give you the latest jean takagi principle of neo law group uh the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law group. Neo law group dot com edits that nonprofit law blog at nonprofit law blog dot com. So many aptly named to see everybody took my aptly named host, uh not private law blog dot com. You need to be following that. That’s uh, you know, if you’re not, it’s your life, I can’t help you. Uh you need to. And he’s at G Attack AMy sample award With us since the 100th show ceo of intent and our technology and social media contributor and 10 dot org. And at AMY R. S Ward. I know AMY has to go to a meeting, so thank you, Amy. Thanks for being with us.

[00:59:52.69] spk_5:
Yeah, Thanks everybody. Congratulations, tony

[00:59:56.17] spk_1:
Thank you, Amy. Thanks

[00:59:57.40] spk_5:
congratulations. All the tony winners.

[01:00:05.41] spk_1:
All the tony All the winners. All your fellow award winners. Yes, go tell your staff you won an award. You want to tell

[01:00:07.59] spk_2:
everyone

[01:00:12.71] spk_1:
tony All right. And peter pan Pento scott. Westcott, thank you again for your sponsorship. Uh turn to communications that turn hyphen two dot C. O. And so thank you gentlemen,

[01:00:25.81] spk_6:
thanks so much for giving us a little time. This is

[01:00:27.84] spk_8:
great. We will strive for a Tony award in the future.

[01:00:41.01] spk_1:
Stay. You can the longest running sponsor. If you if you hang in there scott stein, you know you gotta take us out with cheap red wine. All right. Mhm.

[01:05:09.29] spk_0:
Uh huh. Mm Uh huh. I think I just want you you see your romantic investment to build what I’m looking for answers up on a tv screen. We can’t agree on nothing. We had till the ropes from my down. Yeah, we’re disappointed each other not to be baby and just love that we found you know, you used to find me charming. Gonna care figure out how you see you thought I was handsome. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling from my punch lines. As long as your time will allow. God, I reckon promises if I let you read a wine and how wear diamonds and they’re tired of the clothing that way. Yeah. Love to put over for the good stuff and you’re too easily to stretch the tooth care. Well, I ain’t got too many options so I’m gonna do the best that I can. Well maybe you’ll have some competition a day when I’m a wealthy man. You know, you used to ferment your I’m gonna care figure out how you see if you thought it was him. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling more. But as long as your time will allow because I’ve got her any promises about ideology, their wine and thou oh yeah, maybe let’s raise our glasses. Take a dream to better days. The other people can kiss our asses, but in life he said, and I ain’t get across the heavens. The woman flashed victory sides because we’re perfect for each other as long as well. Nobody else in mind. Oh yeah. You know, you used to care, figure out how can you say? Never mind. Don’t matter now. So keep falling from a problem in my life, jeanne red or whatever. Mm Next week on nonprofit radio I’m just gonna have to trust me. I was focused on the fire and so I don’t know what’s coming up, but I promise you it will not be the fermentation. She can you missed any part of this week’s show I’ve been finding at tony-martignetti dot com responded by turn to communication. You are currently on profits. Your story is their mission terran hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue and only all in one digital marketing

[01:05:11.59] spk_2:
pact. Powering

[01:05:12.73] spk_1:
nonprofits to grow.

[01:05:44.79] spk_0:
tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant going through a creative producer is the wonderful Claire Meyerhoff show. Social media is by students Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy And this music is by Scott Steiner. Thank you for that after making money you with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be bobby.

Nonprofit Radio for July 12, 2021: Your Fun Volunteer Program

My Guests:

Liza Dyer & Corina Sadler: Your Fun Volunteer Program

As our 21NTC coverage continues, Liza Dyer and Corina Sadler share their stories of transforming volunteering from in-person to off-site. Then they share their lessons. Liza is at Multnomah County Library and Corina is with Volunteers in Plano.

 

 

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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Transcript for 549_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20210712.mp3

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[00:02:04.84] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of like the Asus if you dried me out with the idea that you missed this week’s show, your fund volunteer program As our 21 NTC coverage continues, Liza dire and Karina Sadler share their stories of transforming volunteering from in person to offsite. Then they share their lessons, Lizza is at multnomah County Library and Karina is with volunteers in plano Antonis take two, the new york city studio were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. What do you say we get started here is your fun volunteer program. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc The 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C. O. With me now are Lizza dyer, who is volunteer engagement coordinator at Multnomah County Library, Portland Oregon and Karina Sadler. Volunteer resources supervisor. The city of plano texas at volunteers in Plano. Welcome, Lizza. Welcome Karina.

[00:02:10.34] spk_1:
Thanks for having us. tony

[00:02:11.57] spk_2:
Hello,

[00:02:17.44] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure. You each have a CVA after your name and uh, tell us what it I know it’s not cardiovascular accident. So tell us Karina, what what is C. V. A. What is that? What do you both? Uh, credentialed with

[00:02:28.14] spk_2:
the C. V. A. Is a certified volunteer administrator. Is a global credential for leaders of volunteers if you have at least three years experience. And then it is an ongoing professional development networking and educational credential.

[00:02:57.34] spk_0:
Cool. All right. I don’t think I’ve seen that one before. I mean, everybody knows the fundraising ones and the events. I haven’t seen a one for volunteer professionals. So interesting. All right. Yes, there are volunteer. Well, we know there are volunteer professionals. There’s a credential. What’s the organization that you get the credential from

[00:03:07.24] spk_2:
The Council for Certification and Volunteer Administration. And there are 1100 of us around the world and growing.

[00:03:15.44] spk_0:
Okay, Well, you don’t want too many. If if you get right, if you get too many, then it’s then it’s it’s watered down. Its liquefy. Its not as valuable. So you want to manage the number of CVS out there. You know, you don’t write, you want it to be something special.

[00:03:30.24] spk_2:
We’ll make that decision when we get there.

[00:03:32.84] spk_0:
Okay. Are you an authority? Are you an executive in, uh, in the agency?

[00:03:37.43] spk_2:
I’m on the outreach committee.

[00:03:39.74] spk_0:
Oh, so it’s your job. So you disagree with what I just said? You’re you’re trying to you’re trying to reach out. You’re trying to expand the C. V. A. Credential, not not restricted.

[00:03:49.50] spk_2:
Bring in more voices from leaders of volunteers all over the world.

[00:03:56.14] spk_0:
More. Okay. Not fewer. Alright. But soon. But be careful though. If it gets too watered down, it won’t mean as much, it won’t be as valuable to.

[00:04:00.87] spk_2:
That’s a good point.

[00:04:19.44] spk_0:
Now, I’m alive, Noma County Library and the city of Plano because it won’t be as valuable. Alright. Um So you each have stories of how you transformed your volunteer experiences in the pandemic. And then we’ve got some takeaways For future future programs, even when we end up back in person. So listen, let’s go to you to tell the tell the story at the Multnomah County Library 1st.

[00:05:23.74] spk_1:
Absolutely. So at my county library we of course like everybody around the U. S. And around the world had to pretty much shut down very quickly. And we were in the midst of planning for our summer reading Volunteer program. And summer reading is a program every summer where kids and families read all summer long. And the whole point is to encourage people to read all summer long so they don’t lose those reading skills between when school ends in the spring and starts back up in the fall. Right. That’s called the summer slide when your skills slide because you’re not keeping up. And so the volunteer program is all about encouraging families and helping kids get excited about reading for fun. And because of COVID We couldn’t have volunteers in person. And normally we would have almost 900 youth volunteers In all of our 19 library branches. So in the span of about two weeks, we completely shifted that program to be at home and virtual. And if you’ve ever tried to get a youth to do something in person that’s already challenging. But then to get them to do it from a distance is another thing. So we really wanted to make it fun and meaningful and you know, they’re already online so much with school. So we had a lot of offline options as well. And that way we could still engage them as volunteers. They still have something to do over the summer and it would still be promoting our summer reading program and letting people know in their own neighborhoods that summer Reading was still happening. You could still, uh, do things with the library online and that there was still reading to be done over the summer.

[00:06:09.24] spk_0:
Give us a little depth what was what was a one or two examples of what you, what you devised.

[00:07:45.64] spk_1:
Yeah. So it was actually kind of an interesting time because I was redeployed to the Emergency Operations Center for Multnomah County at that time. So I got kind of pulled in at the very last minute, um, to start this up with a number of staff at the library who’d been working on this. And so they had already put together some ideas for activities that the kids could do from home. And it’s, you know, of course you think about social media, Right? But a lot of our volunteers are under 13. They’re not really using social media. It’s their parents, their older siblings who are doing it. So we really wanted to focus on things that they could do that would be just for them. So like things like doing chalk drawings in their neighborhoods, in any language that they speak. Um, we knew that we ended up having about 220 230 volunteers doing this from home, and 48% of them were fluent in another language besides english. And I think we had 14 other languages represented. So they were doing chalk drawings, um, and saying summer reading, sign up online or making signs and distributing them to their neighbors or doing pop up stands where they would have the summer reading game board and different materials with them that they would set up in a park. One person set up at a farmer’s market. And these were things, I was not saying, hey, here’s the contact person at the farmers market. They were doing it. These were the teens leading these activities and of course we were giving them ideas and and things like that. But really the success was because the teens had been given that, that, that authority over what they got to do. So they got to choose what activities they got to do. And that was really way more fun than us Just saying, here do this.

[00:07:52.84] spk_0:
You’re a teenager at heart. I love that

[00:07:55.44] spk_1:
you

[00:07:56.37] spk_0:
trusted them and they didn’t let you down. It’s great. And you can, you give them absolutely some basics and sent them off. Excellent

[00:08:06.21] spk_1:
Karina. How about, uh, let’s say sorry. We also provided them with the materials to do the activities. So we didn’t just say, oh, we assume that you have all these art supplies at home because you may not. So we provided the supplies to do those things as well. Okay,

[00:08:21.34] spk_0:
Guerena, what’s the story at uh, in play now?

[00:09:15.74] spk_2:
Yeah. So when Covid hit, I was in the exact same situation like Lizza, everything got turned off and I felt like our adult program, you know, our adult volunteers were kind of somewhat prepared for what they needed to do, um, for their families and in their workplaces. But I was very worried about the teens, how they were going to react being cut off from our summer of service program. So I really wanted to create something specifically 14 volunteers. We usually have 300 to 3 50 in our program and they’re doing things at the library similar to what Lissa was talking about. But we also have them out at summer camps, especially events, a lot of in person social interaction. So I created a bingo style game, just the classic bingo board. The P and plano is really big. It’s our, it’s our icon at the city. So I called it ping go. Um, each

[00:09:22.32] spk_0:
you messed with, You messed with, You messed with the tradition of bingo.

[00:09:26.57] spk_2:
I did. We

[00:09:36.84] spk_0:
deserve it. That’s pretty gutsy. Well it’s been with us for hundreds of years. I don’t know, maybe thousands of years. People blame bingo. And then in plano you call it bingo. Yeah, that’s all right. When he

[00:09:37.94] spk_2:
really turned a lot of stuff upside down.

[00:09:40.22] spk_0:
Okay. Now what in Portland do you call Portland? In Portland? You call bingo bingo in Portland,

[00:09:45.94] spk_1:
you know, yet to be yet to be determined. I was so inspired by Karina’s program that we’re actually looking at adapting that for our summer reading program this year to say that we’re going to have um you know, one of the activities be a bingo board but we haven’t decided on branding yet. We need to consult with our marketing manager.

[00:10:06.84] spk_0:
All rights gutsy. Alright, bingo. You said the P. in plano is big. You know, I don’t know that. I mean, I didn’t know that.

[00:10:12.78] spk_2:
Yeah, it’s an iconic P.

[00:10:14.70] spk_0:
It’s important. All right. It’s important that words start with P and Plano, is it Okay? All right. All right. So please go ahead Karina.

[00:10:56.04] spk_2:
So I, you know, I used the squares in our bingo board who provides safe at home activities for the teens. They could earn service hours by completing the game board. Um, it also allowed me to leverage many of the partnerships I have built over many years at my program by reaching out to other departments, other organizations and, you know, asking for an activity that I could put on my board. It got people’s interest. They were happy to see something positive going on during that time. And then in our third and final month, I had all the teams submit their own ping go ideas. And our last board was completely uh, selected by the volunteers.

[00:14:54.84] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, the Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today stanford Social Innovation review, the Washington post, the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes, Market Watch, goodness gracious. That’s where turn to clients have gotten exposure. You want that kind of exposure. You want that kind of press turn to has the relationships to get it for you. Turn hyphen two dot C o. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony Take two. Sometimes I miss the new york city studio days. Remember SAm SAM at the board, Help me out with the uh, with the live listener love. He would uh, check the check the I. P. Addresses of everybody listening live and tell me the cities and states and countries. Um and I’m thinking about this especially because next week is an anniversary show tease. Uh and that was very special on the anniversary shows. You know, every july we would get everyone together, scott stein brings his, would bring his keyboard and Claire Meyerhoff was there and we’d get some other folks sometimes to drop in. It was just great fun. So there are times when I missed the studio days uh and the live stream that went along with that overall, I’m much happier producing the show the way we do now. But there are moments of angst when I I missed those new york city studio days, so just letting you know, I haven’t forgotten SAm and the studio, The studios, we were in three different ones. We started on West 72nd Street, then we move to west 76 I think, much further west. And then the last one where he still is now is on West 33rd I think it is maybe 32 good italian restaurant down the street. Uh if it’s still there cafe nana, cafe nana. If you’re in new york city, can you tell Sam lives on the west side. He only has Sam lives on the west side. So he picks all the studios that are with either within walking distance of his apartment or easy commute by subway. Don’t need to go over to the east side. Sam Liebowitz. All right, That is Tony’s take two send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized for goodness sake. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag send in blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got but loads more time for your fun volunteer program. Give us a little flavor of some of the board theme, the ping go board themes.

[00:15:35.94] spk_2:
Yeah. So we partnered with the police Department and had a section of safety minute videos. The teens could watch and learn some safety tips from the police Department, similar with our fire department, checking out some tours of the fire stations and learning about what the fire department does. The census was going on. So encouraging their family to complete their census was a square going out and getting exercise doing uh outdoor social distance scavenger hunt with our museum calling or zooming with the relative to say hi, okay.

[00:16:00.64] spk_0:
You brought in the the institutions of Plano, Cultural Law enforcement fire. Cool. Alright. Alright. So we’ve got you you each have some takeaways that that folks can used in. Mhm. Creating their own volunteers activities. Right? So what what the coroner? Let’s stay with you. What what what what are some lessons learned here that folks non private media listeners can benefit from.

[00:16:50.04] spk_2:
I think it’s great to be specific when creating engagement opportunities to narrow down your audience to create something just for teens or just for seniors or being very um specific in creating activities that would interest them and having at home options. I think going forward will be a bonus will be a plus. Not every child’s home has the same resources as their neighbor and being able to provide them with an engaging activity that connects them back to the community regardless of how many resources they have access to really strengthens that trust.

[00:17:14.94] spk_0:
And I guess you could segment by other categories also besides age. I mean maybe section of the neighborhood that you live in or I don’t know school that you go to, depending on the size of your community, you know? Um, yeah. Whether you’re new to the, I don’t know, you don’t want to start dividing people like whether your native in the town or your or your, you’ve been lived here less than five years. Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe

[00:17:43.54] spk_2:
I’ve seen other organizations. There was a food pantry, a senior living to hospitals from all over the US that took my idea and made their own boards and they made them as inclusive as they wanted or specific to their audiences they wanted. So people can get really creative when you give them an empty bingo board. Okay,

[00:17:45.34] spk_0:
Lizza. You got something you can share for us.

[00:18:53.14] spk_1:
Yeah. So one of the things that I started doing throughout last summer was asking our volunteers to send us pictures of them doing these activities or to send us pictures of just like their chalk drawings or their summer reading pop up stations. And then I took those photos and then put them into our weekly email newsletter that we were sending to the volunteers. So it created a kind of online feedback loop of hey here in a normal time, we would be able to see each other and we would see the things that we’re doing. But because we’re all spread out through throughout Multnomah County were not able to see that. And so being able to share that back helped to elevate the teens and their work and show them, Hey, your artwork that you did has made it into our official newsletter. And you know, for me, I’m just like, oh, that’s just such a simple thing for me to do. But for them, it’s a sense of validation that they created something that was then sent out to hundreds of people and it got included in our end of summer reading report. We used it on social media, you know, and of course we made sure to get permission and everything from, from folks. And that was just a really cool way to spread that. And 11 thing I got from a couple of teams, they were like, oh yeah, I don’t have social media, but I asked my dad to put this on his social media. And so it was just, you know, it created a kind of family experience. whereas before it would be kids coming to the library and their families aren’t really involved at all. And so this created a different kind of opportunity that we’re going to stick with this year.

[00:19:39.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I was just gonna ask about the summer’s coming up. We’re recording in basically mid april. You’re already planning your summer reading program. Are you are you going to try to make it a hybrid or strictly virtual again or? Well I mean the activities weren’t all virtual but distanced I guess I should say distanced or how are you? How are you conceiving of it?

[00:20:44.04] spk_1:
Yeah. So it’s funny you say that you know we must be planning, we started planning summer reading 2021 in September of 2020. So it’s basically a rolling programme for us. It takes so much planning and preparation and working with different organizations that we partner with and um, just planning everything for the next year’s theme. And so each summer reading each year there’s a theme. And so this year our theme is reading colors, your world. And so we have gotten teens to submit their own black and white drawings that are gonna be, I think one or two of them will be printed on the summer reading game boards. So of course, all of these things, you know, you have to backtrack, you can’t just say like, oh, we’ll have this by summer. No, we’re like getting these printed now. Um, and then all of the drawings that were not going to be on the game board, we’re putting them into a coloring book. And so the coloring book will be put together by the library, but then distributed to all of our patrons that are coming into place. So it’s not just, you know, an insular volunteer program of only volunteers get this. No, this is this is everybody can get this. And so yeah, we are going to be opening up recruitment in actually next week for summer reading volunteers and um, really focusing on what volunteers can do in that the two months between when we start recruiting and when summer reading actually starts, um, which is mid june. And so we’re going to have zoom backgrounds that they can use for their classes. Their online classes. We’re going to have, um, we’re going to have them submit ideas for bingo boards. So that was the idea that we are borrowing from Corinna. And so we’re going to ask them, you know, in these two months because we have some really excited volunteers and they just want to get started right away. So, um, so yeah, so we’re almost like doing this pre planning this pre volunteer program for the two months between and one of the things I’m working on

[00:22:15.34] spk_0:
itself is a valuable take away. You know, think about something to engage folks from the time they sign up to the time your program formally starts. If you’ve got like you’re saying two months, you know, people are going to maybe lose interest. You know, you want to keep them engaged to get them and start their engagement before the thing actually formally starts. So, alright, another committee. You got another valuable takeaway. I want listeners to to pick your brain to get the best of your brains.

[00:22:52.94] spk_2:
Yeah, I definitely was not planning in september Yeah. For a summer. Um, but I think just having communication with your volunteers, we surveyed, um, are teens at the end of our summer game. Got their feedback if they wanted this again, even if we were in person or not. So we’re still kind of weighing options and figuring out what we’re going to do. But I expect ping, go to return and hopefully be more interactive now that in texas we are open and having some more opportunities for people to socially distance get together.

[00:23:10.04] spk_0:
Okay. All right. So advice their, keep in touch, keep in touch with folks throughout the year. Even if it’s just lisa, I’m sure you do that. I’m sorry, Liz, I’m sure you do the same. You know, you’re in touch with your summer volunteers throughout the year. You must be right,

[00:23:50.74] spk_1:
definitely. Yeah. We have other volunteer opportunities to that. Some of them volunteer year round. We have virtual team councils. And so those are things that they’re gathering every other week or sometimes monthly, depending on which council that they’re part of. And so they’re continuously engaged or we’re asking them, hey, you know, you participated in summer reading last year were planning and we want to know what you think about this. So we’re regularly checking in with them and then of course they get folded into our regular volunteer pool and get our monthly newsletter to find out what’s happening at the library and, and our status because we’re not currently open to the public except for curbside pickup. So, um, so definitely engaging them not just as volunteers who do things for us, but as community advocates and people who care a lot about what we do.

[00:24:07.84] spk_0:
Any more. Any more takeaways, the lessons that we should learn from your either of your experiences about our own activities. Volunteer activities.

[00:24:38.44] spk_2:
I would just encourage people not to be afraid to try something new to be creative to pilot. an idea. It brings joy to people and people want positive, happy fun things going on. Even if it’s a tough year, it still resonates with a lot of, of families and that connection is just really strong. So don’t be afraid to be creative.

[00:25:11.94] spk_0:
Yeah. How about we leave it there? It sounds good. Right? That’s that’s great. Parting words. All right. They’re both CVS certified volunteer administrators. Did I get that right? Volunteer administrators. All right. And they are Eliza dire at um, multnomah County Library. She’s volunteer engagement coordinator and Karina Sadler. Volunteer resources supervisor for the city of Plano for volunteers in Plano. And Lizza Karina, thank you very much.

[00:25:14.74] spk_1:
Thank you so much. tony

[00:27:24.34] spk_0:
My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you and welcome and thank you not welcome. We’re wrapping up. We’re not welcoming. We’re thanking you. I’m thanking you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc where we are sponsored by Turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. That’s it. Short show this week. It’s a quickie a drive by a wink without the nod, a shake of flash. If I keep this up, it won’t be a short show, A new york minute, two shakes of a lamb’s tell blink of an eye, A jiffy a hot minute Next week It’s the 550th show, our 11th anniversary. Who How many podcasts do you know that are 11 years old and produced 550 episodes and abdominal to boot. Claire Meyer off will co host, will have live music from scott Stein, our contributors, our sponsors and guest awards. Would you care to guess what the awards are called if you missed any part of this week’s show? I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that information scotty, You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio for the 550th show. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for July 5, 2021: Your 5-Point, 1-Hour Legal Audit

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: Your 5-Point, 1-Hour Legal Audit

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns! He walks you through five quick checks of your nonprofit’s documents, processes and status, to make sure you’re on the right side of the law. Gene is our legal contributor and managing attorney at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 

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[00:01:46.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of pro so PAG nausea if I saw that you missed this week’s show. Eur 5.1 Our legal audit, jeanne Takagi returns, he walks you through the five quick checks of your nonprofits, documents, processes and status that make sure you’re on the right side of the law genius. Our legal contributor and managing attorney at neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law group on tony state too. Mayor Cooper, We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, what a pleasure to welcome as it always is, Jean Takagi back to nonprofit radio He is our legal contributor of course and managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in SAN Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com and he’s at G attack. You certainly should be following him if you’re not. Uh it’s your life. Welcome back jean,

[00:01:57.19] spk_1:
Great to be back. tony How are you?

[00:02:03.54] spk_0:
Always a pleasure you’re smiling, I love it, thank you. How is everything going in san Francisco wise now? Late june

[00:02:08.14] spk_1:
well we’ve been having really comfortable, even chilly weather that Mark Twain quote, I don’t think it was actually Mark Twain, but about the coldest day spending a summer in san Francisco is uh somewhat apt right now, but I’m not envying the high temperatures up in my home country of the pacific northwest

[00:02:43.84] spk_0:
Oregon. I was just talking to AMY sample ward earlier today and yesterday too. And uh 116 she said it’s broken. It’s broken since then, but uh astronomically high temperatures for for three days in a row. They had.

[00:02:49.04] spk_1:
Yeah, unbelievable.

[00:02:54.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I know. Okay. But you’re you’re much more comfortable in san Francisco good complaints taking any time off this summer.

[00:03:00.84] spk_1:
Um I’m planning to go back to Canada once the borders are open to visit my mom and family, but no word on the official opening date yet, we’re hoping by August one.

[00:03:12.79] spk_0:
Okay, So Canada is still restricting us residents?

[00:03:16.74] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s still kind of closed off right now, but we’ll see when it opens up again. Okay.

[00:03:23.37] spk_0:
Okay. Maybe I’ve been paying more attention to Australia than I have Canada. I know, I know Sydney is on a new lockdown. All right, Where in Canada? Where is your family in Canada?

[00:03:33.44] spk_1:
In Vancouver? So in that pacific northwest?

[00:03:50.44] spk_0:
Yes. Right. Right. All right. So you have this nifty one hour, 5. for us. A review of documents and a process and your status. Why don’t you why don’t you get us started? But this is not this is a legitimate audit. Uh Not a uh this is not an Arizona style audit from.

[00:04:05.84] spk_1:
Yeah. And this is an accountant. Side it. So this is kind of your own internal check of do these things and you’ll sleep better at night knowing that you’re either okay or you know what you need to fix. So,

[00:04:12.32] spk_0:
okay, if you need to fix some things, you might need someone like, like you to help.

[00:04:28.54] spk_1:
Could be or you might even be able to do it yourself. So, some of the fixes are easy. Some of the fixes might be a little bit more difficult, but um, you should know where you stand. I think that’s that’s the first thing and that’s why

[00:04:32.36] spk_0:
for sure. First step, no, no your status. Okay. So so kick us off. What’s your what’s your first idea?

[00:05:48.04] spk_1:
So I think the first thing you look at is your articles or certificate of incorporation. That was your formation document to start out with. And you want to see what the purpose of the organization is. So the articles govern every other there the like the one ring that rules all the rings showing my geeky side. That’s the one document that rules all the other documents and there’s no superseding what the articles say. So the articles say in the purpose statement, what you do and you’ve evolved past that. Maybe there’s a geographic limitation that says you only operate in new york in the articles and, you know, 50 years ago, that was true. But since then, you’re, you know, you’re operating in the tri state area or also in California, whatever that may be your articles, we’ll tell you what you can and can’t do and if they’re so limiting and you’ve grown past it, you’ve got to fix that. So amending the articles would be the next step. But within that one hour, it’ll probably just take you two minutes to read that purpose statement and say, oh, this is right online with our mission statement or it’s so broad that it covers anything we might do now, we’re in the future. Or you might get that note that says, ah, because the geographic limitation or our purpose isn’t so specific anymore. We’ve expanded beyond that and we need to fix it. So that that’s the first thing.

[00:06:06.24] spk_0:
Why does this matter? Well, suppose we have evolved past what our articles of incorporation say. That’s an ancient document. Yeah, it got us started. Uh, it’s outlived its usefulness. What’s the difference?

[00:07:00.84] spk_1:
Well, it’s that one document that rules all that that still is in effect. So even though it was drafted and adopted a long time ago, that is the principle document that governs what you can do. So, if you’re doing something that you’re not allowed to do in your articles, you could actually be subject to a lawsuit that says you are operating and diverting charitable assets that were intended for this purpose. Which was your article in the Articles of Incorporation and now using it for another purpose. So that’s, that’s the big thing to, to, to worry about in terms of operating outside of your articles. How much is this enforced? Probably not very much absent a complaint from somebody, but if you have an unhappy board member or an unhappy donor that takes a look at the articles or an unhappy thunder, um, that can get you into some trouble. And it probably shows you that the very, very most basic step in your due diligence on your homework about making sure your organization is run properly. You missed. Um, and that could be a sign of other problems. So you want to fix that if it’s if it’s a problem, don’t lose too much sleep over it, but identify it and fix it if necessary.

[00:07:40.64] spk_0:
Alright, so you mentioned funders, I assume this is such a basic document. And we uh, you lawyers, me former lawyer would call them your organic documents because they are your your origin. This and the next one we’re gonna talk about your bylaws. Um, so these are, these are commonly asked for by by, by foundations or other other institutional funders,

[00:08:02.44] spk_1:
I wouldn’t necessarily say commonly, but they’re usually publicly available. Um, and so that means that anybody could ask for it and you would have to give it to them or more often it’s just available on the Secretary of State’s website or something where you could just alright file, you

[00:08:08.64] spk_0:
want to, you want to avoid embarrassment there too, if you like that. Um, What about financial purposes? Would would banks if you were opening up some kind of credit relationship or something, might they ask for your articles of incorporation?

[00:09:37.54] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s not so uncommon for a bank to take a look to see your formation document. They’re not going to be sort of regulating whether you’re operating within your purpose or not. But one thing to think about is that if a donor gives to you, and let’s say your purpose was to feed those experiencing homelessness in new york city. Um, and then 10 years later, oh, by the way, you want to turn into an arts organization that supports the opera in Manhattan. Um, you could do that by amending your articles and if you do something drastic like that, if, if your mission has evolved over time, quite distinct from what you originally planned and you never bothered fixing your articles, that could be seen as a serious breach and diversion of charitable assets. So a donor that donated to you would have expected you to be in compliance with your articles and may have donated based on that reliance that you’re helping the homeless rather than supporting the opera. And that’s another thing you need to avoid. So if you were raising funds under the old purpose, the funds that you raised are still stuck on that purpose, you can’t deploy those assets for a brand new purpose that you never informed, um, the government agency that has your secretary, your articles of incorporation filed, um, you can’t divert it for other purposes.

[00:10:00.84] spk_0:
Okay. And that’s, that’s probably the Secretary of State. Uh, well, it varies, I shouldn’t say, probably it’s right. Secretary of State in some states, some states, it’s the Attorney General’s Office has a charities bureau, that might be the office in some places.

[00:10:24.24] spk_1:
Yeah, So the Secretary of State or division of corporations or something like that would be the ones that are looking at your articles on the formation and then amending it. So they’re kind of a ministerial body. The Attorney General’s usually are your charities regulator. So they would be the ones that say you’re not, you’re using charitable assets for the wrong purpose.

[00:10:33.94] spk_0:
Okay, right. Because you are incorporated as a not for profit corporation in your state. So that’s why Gene, that’s why you’re saying you folks are incorporated as that in that way. So that’s why it would be whatever agency that regulates the corporations in your state,

[00:10:48.24] spk_1:
Right? That’s that’s how you would fix the articles and why you want to check check, because anybody else may be able to pull those articles from that, that department,

[00:11:38.34] spk_0:
you’re, you’re a nonprofit corporation, yep. Under state law, it’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, The new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, usa Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten exposure. Do you want that kind of exposure Turn to has the relationships that can make it happen? Turn hyphen two dot c o. Your story is their mission. All right. So I mentioned, uh, the second check of our five is your bylaws remind folks what the purpose of the bylaws are and what are we looking for here?

[00:14:33.14] spk_1:
The bylaws are pretty much the instruction manual for how your organization is governed by governed. I mean, sort of board of directors, how they operate, how they meet, who are the officers of the organization? What authority do they have? What committees do they have? Um, and so really are more specific than the articles of incorporation, although they have to be consistent with the articles because again, the articles rule all. Um, but in an hour you won’t be able to review your whole bylaws. But what I suggest here in that one hour audit is check the provisions on how directors are selected. So there may be a regular election process where the board is called self perpetuating the board elects its own successors. But oftentimes organizations will forget to elect their directors. You know, when their term ends. That might say the term is two years or three years, um, and they just let directors keep serving until they want to resign. Well, that’s a problem. Um, so making sure that you are fulfilling the requirements uh, about director elections is really important. And sometimes directors are selected through other methods. They might be appointed or designated by another party or an individual. And that’s pretty common in private foundations, a little less common in public charities. But if you have those type of provision in your bylaws, you want to make sure that the person who is appointing or designating them is actually doing so. Uh, and you want to make sure that you’re sort of following all the provisions about, well, how elections are supposed to be run if they’re nominating processes or anything else, if you’re not complying with those, get rid of them. Um, and, and state exactly how you are electing directors. And and that’s that’s what you should really check, because if you enter into a big transaction, like a merger or you’re going to get into a big lease, oftentimes, the other party may want to see your bylaws. Um, and you are making representations in that contract of saying that we are in compliance with all of our organizational documents, uh, and by not checking whether you are or not, especially on the selection of directors, which is maybe the most important thing in your bylaws. Um, that’s that’s a huge red flag and they let the other party off the hook to be able to cancel that contract that you entered into and kick you out if it’s a lease or blow the merger up. So you want to make sure if you’re making those type of representations that you are compliant, and again, it’s just basic compliance. That’s one of the, you know, top five, I would say, to make sure your directors are regularly elected. So you want to make sure you cover your bases just to look like a good corporate citizen.

[00:15:03.34] spk_0:
And part of what you’ll find in the Bye laws is how to amend the bylaws. So if you find that you’re not complying with what the bylaws are. Either I get you either amend the bylaws to, to the way you are practicing now or conform your practice to what the bylaws says. But but if you need to amend the bylaws in the by laws, that should say how to amend them right with some majority or other vote of the board members, I presume.

[00:15:24.14] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. So if it’s really simple, it’ll say you can amend it by action of the board, but there are some complicated amendment provisions as well. So now we’re digging a little deeper. So if we do need to amend it, we’re going to go more than an hour on our overall legal review. Okay? Yeah. It is something you’re going to need to do and you want to check in that case. If you can get, if you have the resources to afford a lawyer, can get a pro bono lawyer, have them help you with the amendment to the bylaws. That’s a pretty major action.

[00:16:02.34] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Well, yeah, but we’re just that were the exploratory state. This is an audit. We’re not, we’re not doing the corrective actions were preparing. We’re preparing our auditor’s report. So we know we know we’re uh we we’re okay. Sleeping soundly. We’re not we don’t have any time bombs that we’re not aware of. The unknown unknowns. We don’t have any of those because we’re digging. Okay? But then if you need to go further beyond the the hour, you probably should read all your by laws to make sure that everything you’re doing is in compliance with what you say you’re supposed to be doing.

[00:16:17.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And, you know, even before you hire a lawyer, it would be a great idea for cost efficiency to figure out what you actually do that’s compliant with the bylaws and wherever you’re not compliant. So you can just make that list for the lawyer to say, oh, we haven’t been doing this. Can you help us fix it?

[00:16:48.14] spk_0:
Okay. Right. And then, Right. And there are gonna be provision of state law, right? That are going to govern some of the actions, depending on what they are. All right. That’s where we get too much in the weeds. Okay. That’s why you need. That’s why it’s good to have some help. Either paid or pro bono. So, you know, you’re complying with state law if you need to amend your bylaws.

[00:16:50.74] spk_1:
That’s right.

[00:16:58.84] spk_0:
Okay. Cool. I say I’m trainable. I’m training through the years. I’ve picked up some things from you. Um, All right. What’s our what’s our number three of five?

[00:17:25.34] spk_1:
So number three is because fundraising is so important, of course, for for non profit organizations, you want to make sure that you are helping your donors as well. And if you don’t have the right language and your donor receipt, a donor might not be able to take a charitable contribution deduction if audited and might get it reversed on them. So it’s really important to know what you need to put in a donation receipt.

[00:17:32.64] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and we know that, uh, for donations of $250 or more, that’s when, that’s when you have to issue the receipt.

[00:19:06.04] spk_1:
Yes. So that is for for donors, the donor might need just a check, you know, their, their return check for, or a copy of the check for a donation of $100 until they take a deduction for that may be enough. But if it is $250 or more, they need a special receipt coming back from the charity. Uh, and in that receipt, of course, it’s, you know, the name of the donor and the amount donated. And if there’s non cash stuff, a description of that stuff. But what’s key is there has to be a specific sentence in there that says something to the effect of, um, no goods or services were provided by the organization in return for this contribution. Um, or if there was something that was given back to the, to the donor in exchange, that wasn’t just very trivial. And what lawyers called the minimus jargon jail there, but uh, for something so so trivial and small, like a little sticker or something, you don’t have to value that. But if it’s something like a ticket to a concert, um, it’s kind of like the same type of receipt for those of you out there that attend a gala event and you get the chicken dinner that comes with your, you know, uh, Attendance and you spend $100 on a ticket, you get some sort of receipt that comes back to you saying Thank you for your $100 by the way, $25 with the value of your chicken dinner. So you can get a charitable contribution deduction of up to $75. So that’s the same type of thing that you would expect here.

[00:20:00.94] spk_0:
The other, the other place this plays out a lot is uh schools with sporting events. When people make a donation and maybe in exchange for their donation, they get a ticket package of some value. So you have to report that reveal that ticket value in your receipt or your acknowledgement letter. The other thing we didn’t mention is okay, Okay. Um also the date of gift, which which becomes important at the end of the year. Some, you know, some last minute december 30 december 31 gifts might not get processed until early january, but the gift was received On December 30 or 31st. So you want to make that? Make that clear?

[00:20:54.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Absolutely. And the I. R. S. Has a publication. If you if you google I. R. S. Sort of donor receipt, you’ll probably find the publication that tells you exactly what elements that you should include on a receipt. And when it’s triggered, we talked about $250 or more. There’s also something called the quid pro quo, which we talked about as well. The chicken dinner type contribution. So there’s certain elements that need to be put in depending upon that gift. And what else comes back to the donor in return. Just take a quick look at that but make sure your donor received has that language if nothing is returned back to the donor that it actually states that because in every legal case where the I. R. S. Tries to deny a deduction and the donor fights it, this could sometimes be for like a million bucks or two million or $10 million. The IRS always wins because the plain language of the statute says if you don’t have this language you don’t get a deduction and it’s hard to fight. Even if you think for moral reasons of course they gave this gift and they should get a deduction and it’s just one little sentence or phrase that’s missing. That’s ridiculous. But that’s the law.

[00:23:26.04] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two Mr cooper. If you were a fast listener last week, you would have listened on monday and you would have heard a nonprofit radio with an inappropriate Tony is take two. I made a inappropriate joke about drug addiction and boasted about privilege without bothering to acknowledge it. If you heard that show that had that version of tony state too, I’m sorry you had to listen to that. I regret that I recorded it. I thank the team at N 10 and Amy Sample Award for Pointing out the inappropriate Tony’s take 2 to me. They did it on monday by Tuesday morning. There was a new version of nonprofit radio with a different Tony is take two. I hope it never happens again. If it does, I hope you and your fellow listeners. Well, let me know that is tony state too. Now, back to your 5.1. Our legal audit. The publication you’re referring to is uh, 526. It’s, it’s written, it is very, really, very valuable. Um, It’s written for donors to tell them what they need to substantiate. But nonprofits can use it to make sure that they’re giving their donors what they need to make the substantiation. So, uh, you’re right. It’s online it’s publication 526 and it it goes through all the rules that your donors have to follow. So you can help them by reading that right by checking that out as well.

[00:23:27.70] spk_1:
And there’s a little brochure to. That’s a summary of the things that we talked about which is even shorter so at least use that.

[00:24:29.04] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah 5 26 is pretty long but it’s got a link herbal or linked table of contents to, so there’s there’s some help. The I. R. S. Is I mean the folks are trying to do their jobs. I always I always feel bad for the I. R. S. I don’t know that’s a tough job, beleaguered agencies and nobody wants to pay them or do what they nobody wants to be uh questioned by them. People’s hearts race when they get an envelope from them, you know? But overall I mean I think for as broad as their work is I credit them and I think I think the I. R. S. Is I think they’re doing a good job as best they can with being having the reputation that they have and all this being so politicized through the years and etcetera. So I’ve never been audited though too. So maybe if I had been privately audited maybe maybe my opinion of the I. R. S. Would be different. I don’t know. Have you ever been audited jean?

[00:25:10.94] spk_1:
I have been when I left a big firm and opened my own firm, my income went down that first year dramatically because I left the big firm with no clients. So that triggered an audit. What are you doing? Okay. I’ll just say yeah the audit room at the I. R. S. Office is a very very depressing place where people are married. They’re scared out of their lives. It was academically it was kind of interesting for me because I had no no problems with explaining it. Um But uh yeah I could see the nerves or feel the tension in that office for both the IRS agents and the taxpayers. Okay.

[00:25:26.64] spk_0:
I’m glad you you stayed out of you stayed out of prison. Right. No fine. Okay. Okay. Just settled out. You settled uh admitted no guilt, admitted no wrongdoing and settled. All right. What’s next in our in our five points?

[00:26:45.04] spk_1:
Um So this one is kind of a little bit of a no brainer but I think just make sure you you’re standing with the I. R. S. Still says you have five oh one C. Three status. So I think it’s a good idea to check because your donors will be checking. Especially your funders will be checking. And it’s so simple to do, literally, if you’ve done it a couple times, you can do it in under a minute. Um, So the, you know, if you google I. R. S. And T. E. O. S, which stands for tax exempt organizations search. So I. R. S. Taos you’ll get the website where you just enter the organization’s name or E. I. N. And it’ll spit out a link and you link to your organization’s name and it’ll tell you if you’re five oh one C three, non or not. And whether you’re a public charity, which may be an important distinction for some organizations, a public charity would be obviously not a private foundation and not subject to all those other rules, uh, that private foundations are subject to. But if you don’t get the numbers right, you can actually tip over into private foundation status. Um So it’s an important thing for some organizations to keep track of to make sure you’re still five or once you re exempt uh And a public charity in the I. R. S. Views and that’s updated nearly weekly. So um you have a good sense of where you actually stand and again take you a minute or two minutes to find that

[00:27:00.84] spk_0:
jean. Was that like three or four years ago when tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of organizations lost their exempt status because they hadn’t filed their their nine nineties for three consecutive years. I’m sure you remember that, What was that like 34 years ago or

[00:28:19.84] spk_1:
I think it was even longer, so I think it might have been Gosh, close to seven or eight years ago. Um and about 600,000 organizations, I believe tax tax exempt status. So it was a huge number um partly because smaller some organizations just weren’t running anymore. And the I. R. S. Doesn’t know when you stop running. So they’re just on the list of on their list and they were dropped off but many were actually running and just didn’t file their nine nineties and there was no rule before that said if you miss three in a row were automatically revoking your tax exempt status and it’s done electronically so it’s no agent discretion. It just happens. Um And so it’s hard to come back from that. It is possible but it’s still important for organizations to keep track if you miss 1990 or you’re late. Don’t worry too much about it. But if you have missed two High alert that you don’t even get an extension on your third missed one, even if you apply for one, you have to file it by the May 15 deadline if you’re a calendar filer. So pay attention to that.

[00:28:50.64] spk_0:
Okay important thank you. And you know this is an easy thing you can check in a couple minutes. Uh So it’s part of your one hour audit. So just make sure that something uh something didn’t happen even if you’re you’re sure you’re filing your nine nineties, you know for for two or three minutes. Check out uh I. R. S. Tax exempt organizations search

[00:29:12.94] spk_1:
just in case it was lost in the mail and you know the I. R. S. During the covid pandemic had I think 10,000,010 million pieces of paper filings in their warehouses that somebody had to process when they started coming back so they’re delayed still on that. So it annual filings could easily have been lost. Um So double check that website just to make sure you’re you’re okay.

[00:29:24.04] spk_0:
Yeah, be good to your organization please. All right. The last one when I love go ahead.

[00:30:40.44] spk_1:
So the same way you want to check with your I. R. S. Status, you probably want to check with your state status and that can be a couple agencies. So the corporate agency that we talked about, usually the secretary of state’s office, you want to make sure your corporation is in good standing, that they usually require some sort of annual or biannual filing that that comes to them. And then the attorney general or charities regulator might be a different agency. And they may also require charity registration on an annual basis. So making sure you file with each of those agencies is really important. And there’s usually an online database for most states where you can check to see what your most recent filing was and if you’re delinquent or if you’ve been suspended, um, or even uh, in in some cases, um, terminated because of lack of filing. So if if you find that, then, you know, there’s stuff to fix and you probably need to call a lawyer at that point, um, but just check it, if you check it annually, you’ll find it’s easy again, probably once you’ve done it once, and you write down a few notes about how to access that side, it’ll only take you a few minutes to just double check both the state, usually Secretary of State, for your corporation, um status and the Attorney General, or charities regulator for your charities registration status.

[00:31:11.94] spk_0:
You want to make sure that your uh, in compliance not and for the, for the ladder of that in compliance, not only in your state, but now I’m going beyond your one hour. But, uh, that’s okay. We’ll go a little deeper. You need to be in compliance with solicitation regulations in all the states where you are soliciting donations now, I just need a car, not just you and me,

[00:31:25.34] spk_1:
and they need to call somebody like you, if that’s the case. So if they know their fundraising in multiple states are using, um, people or companies to help them fundraise in other states, they need to call someone like you and say, hey, what do we need to do to make sure that we’re in compliance with that. Other states. Rules were not incorporated there, but we’re doing business or fundraising there. What do we need to do?

[00:32:53.24] spk_0:
Right. Thank you. It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag tisk, tisk. If you’re using those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your 5.1. Our legal audit for for the I’m going backwards a little bit because, you know, your host is lackluster. I’m sorry. Um if we find out that we’re on a step forward, if we’re not, if we have lost our IRS 501 C3 status for some reason, what would you recommend doing?

[00:34:24.84] spk_1:
So find out the reason first of all. So if it was for failing to file 3990s in a row that’s probably the most common reason for getting your exemption revoked. Um Find out if that was actually true. Did you actually miss those filings? Did an accountant help you with them? Did some volunteer do that find out what the status is? Uh and then contact the I. R. S. To ensure that that was the actual reason and if you have filed the 19 nineties and the IRS has somehow lost it you should tell that to them. Um See if you have a like a return receipt which I always recommend if you haven’t electronically filed, make sure you have some evidence that actually got sent uh to the I. R. S. Office because that will help you. And if they had made the mistake or they lost the finding that will help them reverse the process. But if it is actually the case where you fail to file um have those filings ready to go. Some hire an accountant or somebody who can help you prepare those files, have them ready to go. And there is a reinstatement process where you actually have to Fill out the form 1023 which is the exemption application that a start up would have to file. But you’re doing it for reinstating your tax exempt status. Um So there is a process the I. R. S. Has tried to make it easier for some organizations where they just kind of missed filings but it hasn’t been like We’ve been out of compliance for 20 years,

[00:34:26.73] spk_0:
we’ve never filed. Yeah

[00:34:49.44] spk_1:
so go through that process if you can get a lawyer or an accountant to help you um, please do. So it’s while they try to make it as easy as possible. It’s still kind of complicated and there are some nuances that can help you and the sum that can hurt you. So that’s going to take a little bit longer to fix if you have to fix it. But it is for the most part fixable.

[00:34:54.44] spk_0:
If we’re going to go beyond our one hour, 55 point legal audit, what would, where would we spend more time?

[00:36:44.53] spk_1:
So there are some common areas of concern for nonprofits. I would say one of the big ones is getting your independent contractor employee distinction. Right? So knowing what the difference is, because I would say that a lot of organizations when they get into trouble, they get into trouble on that point. And on that point, volunteer borrowing members could actually be held personally liable for non payment of payroll taxes. And by that, I mean, if you determine that a worker is an independent contractor, but legally they should have been an employee, let’s say they’re working 40 hours a week and they don’t work for anyone else, and they’re doing the job that, you know, an executive director does for an organization. But you go, I don’t want to pay the payroll taxes because we can’t afford it. So we’re just going to call you an independent contractor, that’s not going to be consistent with the definition that the I. R. S. Views and the state may have their own definitions as well. Um, but the employer for an employee has to pay their portion of the payroll tax. If the payroll tax didn’t get paid, uh, then there may be a claim against the organization. And then in enforcing that, they may say this was the board’s fault, charitable assets should not be used to pay for this type of penalty because this was sort of gross negligence on this part. So board members could be out of pocket to pay for those payroll taxes if they haven’t been paid. So because withholding and paying payroll taxes, the employer shares is the employer’s duty. So be careful of that one distinction I would say is my next thing, that’s going to take longer, but it would be the next thing on my audit list. Okay.

[00:37:17.93] spk_0:
Yeah. Common misconception that if we, if we call them a contractor and we send them a 1099, then that’s what they are. And, and there’s a whole, you and I have done shows on this, there’s a whole test of, you know, do they work for the people whose equipment do they use, Who sets the hours, who sets the location of the work, Who sets the timing of the work? It’s the whole list of fact multi factor test. Uh, So it’s not just, you know, you call it a, you call them an independent contractor because you’re saving on employment taxes and uh and unemployment and and benefits that are required. It’s not it’s not that simple. So,

[00:37:32.43] spk_1:
okay, not only the I. R. S. Could be involved, but the person the worker who got misclassified could actually go after you later

[00:37:40.89] spk_0:
or your state or your state Department of Labor.

[00:38:13.52] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. And they may have a slightly different definition of independent contractors and employees. And California is kind of this big example because they’re there sort of leading the way if you will in terms of employment rights. Um, and so they have made a much more difficult distinction, making it very hard for nonprofits to claim that they have independent contractors if they occupy the type of job that an employee would occupy. So even if it was for a limited duration of time, that may not matter anymore that they were there for three months only, but if they were an administrative assistant or an executive director, they may need to be called a temporary or part time employee and not an independent contractor anymore. So it’s gotten much, much tougher on the state level.

[00:38:40.12] spk_0:
What’s next? What in your experience, what do you see as another common problem?

[00:40:23.81] spk_1:
So not necessarily a problem. But for a way for the boards to sort of quickly get policies in place to make sure that they’re doing their job in terms of providing oversight since they’re not there every day. And you know, maybe they’re meeting once a month or once every other month. Um uh and maybe for just a couple hours. So there’s only so much that they can do. But what they can do is create some policies or have policies created that they can approve that governed the organization. And these policies, some of them are referenced in the form 9 90. And the 9 90 asks you the I. R. S. Is asking you through the 9 90 do you have these policies and if you say no, Well it used to be kind of normal awhile ago, you know, more than 10 years ago for a lot of organizations to say no, but since they started asking these questions, I think in 2000 eight maybe. Um the more often you put no the more an outlier you become because most organizations have seen these questions and said, oh if we keep saying no to this, is this going to trigger an audit risk? And the answer is probably yes. So saying yes to. We have these policies make sense. And that would be a document retention and destruction whistle blower. The Board Level Review of the Form 9 90. Um, those are really common ones that that you can incorporate really quickly. I would also add expense reimbursements. Who has signing authority. Can anybody in your organization signed a contract or sign a check or only the executive director? What if they’re not around? So just having policies rather than the board going, you guys figure it out. Having a policy in place is really important for a board to do gift acceptance, another one.

[00:41:03.31] spk_0:
Gift acceptance. Yeah, right. Uh, there’s another angle to this too, which is the, uh, the charity rating agencies, um, Charity Navigator. Uh, well, uh, the old guidestar now it’s merged and it’s Candid merged with the Foundation Center Candid. But those rating agencies also ask ask about the standard policies like whistleblower document retention, etcetera. Yeah, it’s a proxy conflict, conflict of interest, border conflict of interest, another another common commonly required policy.

[00:41:11.35] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I’m sorry, I missed that one because I think that’s the most important, one of all of them, outside of the articles and bylaws that I

[00:41:28.31] spk_0:
got, I got Eugene. All right, No problem. So, yeah. So aside from the I. R. S asking charity rating agencies ask also for these basic policies. All

[00:41:41.71] spk_1:
right. And it’s a proxy for them to say is this organization well governed. Does it have a good board of directors in place? And if you keep answering no, we don’t have these policies, then they’re going to assume that you’re not very well covered. Yeah,

[00:42:03.20] spk_0:
it’s like someone reading your bylaws or your articles of incorporation. You know, somebody might get a wild hair and decided to go read your articles of incorporation and then see that they are out of date. Or you might, you know, you might have your bylaws disclosed on your website. But some disgruntled person or just even some uh, neutral person might see that, you know, you don’t, you don’t conduct yourself the way your documents that you’re supposed to, you know, it’s embarrassing at the at the best. It’s embarrassing.

[00:42:14.50] spk_1:
Yeah. And for for older folks like me, tony when somebody has in their bylaws like you can deliver notice by telegraph. Not a great sign for some of the younger funders may be considering your organization.

[00:42:35.90] spk_0:
All right. All right. Or we can even update it and make it still bad facts. Notice noticed by facts. Facsimile.

[00:42:38.83] spk_1:
I still have a hotmail account so I’m okay with facts. All

[00:42:43.89] spk_0:
right. But you don’t use your fat. You don’t have a fax machine, do you?

[00:42:46.57] spk_1:
I still do

[00:42:47.63] spk_0:
you do you get any traffic on it?

[00:42:50.20] spk_1:
Um I I use effects as as my primary. So I have a paper printing facts as a backup. But exit the primary.

[00:43:09.10] spk_0:
Remember if ax you used to send people would send documents to the phone number right at like the phone number at the fax dot com. So that they would print on your machine. Wasn’t that isn’t how it works.

[00:43:17.90] spk_1:
So this effects is um they sent a fax to my fax machine. But I have my fax machine turned off and it sends me an email of what the facts would look like.

[00:43:30.10] spk_0:
Okay. Okay, well, that’s OK. So I’m starting. But there there was a there was in fact used to, somebody could send an email to your fax machine through the phone number at fox dot com and it would print on your machine.

[00:43:34.10] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. But

[00:43:35.44] spk_0:
You’ve updated your, you updated sometime around 1997, I guess

[00:43:40.32] spk_1:
one. Some level of

[00:43:41.57] spk_0:
you get an email now. Congratulations. You’re getting emails. All right. Uh,

[00:43:46.70] spk_1:
my anything don’t even answer emails now. It has to be text not responding.

[00:43:57.30] spk_0:
Right. Another year. It’ll just be if it’s not a Tiktok then forget about it. They don’t know you. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, jean. So we talked about our five points. You’re talking about going a little further. If you’re if you if you want the suma cum laude of legal audits, you can go a couple of steps further. Thank you very much. Gene

[00:44:12.79] spk_1:
great to be with you Tony. Thank you.

[00:44:30.29] spk_0:
My pleasure. Thank you, Jeanne Takagi Neo is the firm, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in SAn Francisco subscribe to this blog, nonprofit law blog dot com. It is wildly popular and jean is at g attack. Thanks again jean.

[00:44:32.19] spk_1:
Thanks tony

[00:45:27.59] spk_0:
next week. More from 21. NTC, the nonprofit technology conference. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chabon’s Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for June 28, 2021: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns for a valuable, fun conversation that starts with the #ShowTheSalary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor, and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:04.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of para Nicaea if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Amy sample Ward returns for a valuable fund conversation that starts with the show the salary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 on tony state too. Let’s rejoice, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, let’s get started, shall we, what do you say here is center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Amy sample ward. You know her, you know who she is, she’s our technology and social media contributor and she’s the Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at a me sample ward dot org and at AMy R. S Ward, Welcome back amy,

[00:02:05.44] spk_0:
it’s been so long.

[00:02:15.34] spk_1:
I know it’s been several months. I didn’t even look back. It’s been too long, but let’s not, let’s not dwell on that. We’ll get, it’s my job to fix it.

[00:02:16.81] spk_0:
So what is time anyway? You

[00:02:19.37] spk_1:
know? Oh, that’s an existential question that we don’t have the time to answer what time is. So, um, you’re well in Oregon. Yes.

[00:03:00.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Doing pretty well hot. We’re hot in Oregon. We’ve got, we’ve got a hot hot keep wave and a hot summer ahead of us, but otherwise doing okay. And you know, I think like a lot of parts of the country, the kind of atmosphere feels like it’s lifting a little bit as, as cities kind of open up more because because it is summer, even if it’s super hot, it’s better to be outside and see other people, You know, I think after a long hard winter, people really just be inside

[00:03:08.12] spk_1:
Last summer, largely the same. Yeah, at least if you were doing the right thing. So yes, it beats the hell out of summer, 2020,

[00:03:15.10] spk_0:
right? Yeah.

[00:03:17.44] spk_1:
Although I’m sorry that climate change has contributed to bad temperatures in Oregon and

[00:03:22.55] spk_0:
yeah, yeah, we’ve already, it’s already fire season here and fire

[00:03:27.78] spk_1:
season is all the year now. Now California just doesn’t even have a fire season anymore. They just have fire fire

[00:04:40.64] spk_0:
thinking about, you know, how many And and 10 has community members all over the us Canada Europe all around the world. Um, and so it’s something we’re always thinking about is, you know, what’s going on and for somebody that might open an email or show up to a court. So being one of our cohort programs where we’re really kind of expecting a lot of you over an extended period of time and, you know, there’s folks in so many different geography, so many different identities, so many different kind of compounding factors where it just might not be a day that you can join of course, you know, and we have done a lot of work, kind of, all of all of 2020 started in 2019 and launched this calendar year with a number of changes to our programs so that people were better able to say, yeah, this isn’t the day that I can join us and that they weren’t kind of like slowly slipping behind or slipping out of any of our programs, that the system was already built for them to be like, yeah, not today. You know, uh again,

[00:05:15.54] spk_1:
we’re gonna talk about that to me that falls under the rubric of tech equity. We’re gonna we’re gonna talk about that. Let’s start with the something I know is on your mind. The show the salary campaign. There was it was a critical piece In the chronicle of philanthropy. Just yesterday, we’re recording on June 23 yesterday. There was a piece by Vincent Robinson, critical of show the salary campaign. Let’s acquaint folks with what show the salary is

[00:06:21.64] spk_0:
for sure. So I think show the salary like hashtag no spaces show the salary is a campaign, but it is not the only movement for there are many, many folks, many different hashtags, many different appeals to the sector at large, whether that’s foundation jobs or nonprofit jobs, whoever to include the salary, whether that’s a hard and fast number or that’s a range in every job hosting from Ceo to to any other position really because of the number of dynamics that come when you don’t show that salary and the privilege that it really wraps itself around, um that it’s not creating an equitable opportunity or access point for all different kinds of folks to apply for that job. And show the show salary is one of these campaigns and efforts to encourage folks whether by asking nicely or shaming whichever direction works to get people to do it

[00:07:41.14] spk_1:
all right. And some of the some of the reasons that showing the salary is important are I know that it gives an advantage to folks who negotiate salary better, which is typically white men. They are more confident in their negotiations. They have better outcomes when they attempt to negotiate. If not even better outcomes, they at least get get a better reaction when they attempt to negotiate. So it gives advantage to the white privileged. Um It’s um it’s disadvantageous in that you might be, I mean this this applies to everybody. You you might spend your time applying for a job that’s beneath your salary requirement. We all got to cover. We all got to cover a monthly nut. And if your salary isn’t gonna do it, you gotta go through a a laborious process to find that out. Maybe a couple of interviews, several hours your research time, you’re spiffing up your resume time, your credentials. So why should I hide it from anybody? Um on the positive side, he promotes transparency and you’d like to hire people who want to work for transparent organizations and people want to work for transparent organization? What am what am I what am I leaving out of the why the advantages, the reasons for showing the salary?

[00:08:32.14] spk_0:
I mean, I think all of those are right. And also all of those are kind of like doorways into an entire, you know, grouping of arguments that are related to them, right? And I think it intend we really um combined when we’re trying to mask or compelled or encourage or convince other organizations to include salaries to us that means compensation and generally make clear what your benefits really are. Don’t say generous benefits because to your point, if someone is um has chronic illness and they know that health care is going to be a really important part of the benefits they get and all that you’ve said is generous benefits. They don’t know how to navigate if that’s going to be worth their time competitive

[00:08:54.34] spk_1:
Really. You know, when you think about these things critically, which, you know, it’s, it’s just uh you know, for me at 59 years old, it’s what I grew up with commensurate salary, salary commenced with the experience and generous benefits. No, but if you do think about that well, it really communicates nothing generous, generous by whose standards commensurate by what type of experience

[00:08:57.34] spk_0:
and with the arbiter of that. Right?

[00:08:59.53] spk_1:
Well who is it? Yeah, who is? Right.

[00:10:24.74] spk_0:
Yeah. I think especially as uh folks are starting to maybe in a token izing way, look to increase the number of black indigenous staff of color, um, L G B T Q I plus like all different, you know, quote unquote diverse metrics for their staff. Those folks want to know that they are going to be evaluated by something they opted into, Right? So seeing something like, oh, it’s commensurate with experience. Well, if you are excited to hire me because I also speak spanish, but you’re not, you’re not giving me a salary because of that, then that’s probably not a great place, right? Like all of those decisions add up to a picture that’s getting painted to potential staff before they even apply, let alone are hired and start there. And if you think about, you know, what is this picture we’re painting? Is it just like murky and you can’t see anything isn’t really clear. We painted a beautiful picture of this land. They could come come join. You know, it isn’t just like what’s in the organization’s interest because you really want to be able to negotiate with someone. I would, I would invite a bit of reflection on why you want to change something, you know, because if you don’t already know how much you can pay, that’s how much you can pay. And if you don’t, then you’re probably not ready to start hiring.

[00:11:23.84] spk_1:
Okay. Uh, Vincent Robinson pushed back against the show the salary campaign. His his main point is that now he is a recruiter. He makes a point of saying that his practice is devoted to expanding diversity and accessibility among job applicant among applicants. Yes. And placements that he makes uh, he says that 90% of the candidates that he places are diverse. Bye bye. Common standards. Alright, So let’s, let’s just assume that that’s all the case. Uh, take him at his word for that. He says that the main problem with the show, the salary campaign is that it actually disadvantages folks. Um what’s this point? Because

[00:11:32.54] spk_0:
I mean, essentially, if I can, can recap it, um, the way that we read it and have discussed, invented is essentially saying that by disclosing that salary, so don’t already make it discouraged, right? Would feel that they wouldn’t go for that job. And

[00:12:22.64] spk_1:
Their if their current as it uses the example of someone whose salary is $60,000 and they feel they’re eminently qualified for a job that posts range, or a salary of $150,000, that they will be discouraged from applying because they feel they’re not worthy of that salary. And he says that he has counseled many people in that situation that they should absolutely apply. What does the I’m not I don’t want to make you a spokesman for the show, the salary campaign. We don’t even know who the members of the show the salary campaign are, which we are going to talk about. The secretive side of that. I’m curious about that. We’ll get to that as an advocate for show the salary. What do you say to Mr Robinson?

[00:15:23.34] spk_0:
Sure, I wouldn’t have nothing to do with the show, the salary campaign. And as far as I understand it, it’s a campaign started by nonprofit staff in the charity sector in the UK. Um wow, she and being in love with their julie and I have nothing to do with it. But there are, you know, folks like Julie and the community centric fundraising community and 10 lots of folks in the us have also been calling for this. I think the idea that someone would see a higher salary and think that they are not qualified. I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist like humans are complicated, dynamic, interesting creatures. And I’m sure there are people for whom they have experienced a lifetime of internalized messages that they are not worthy of that job, right? That is not going to be changed by all organizations continuing to hide the salary. We’re not changing the sectors general attitude that everyone deserves more money by hiding salary. So even if, even if there are individual use cases where people were discouraged because of a high salary, that is not a validation for not disclosing it. And ultimately, by showing those salaries, you’re encouraging peer organizations to equally pay that much for the similar title or scoped positions. Um, You know, I think another perspective, we talked about an intent was, well, if that person is making 60,000 there in an organization that has the full kind of, uh, equate herbal scope to that other position, then they probably shouldn’t be making 60. And the issue is that they are currently making too little, not that they are not qualified for a job that makes twice as much right. That the real issue is, is their current place of employment and that that place they should be able to use that job posting to say, hey, I like a race. I think the dynamic that’s not spoken about in the Chronicle piece that I do think is an important part of the conversation about hiring in the sector is the fact that that articles written by a recruit and I think that I have experienced and seen and coached many people applying for jobs who have a very different uh understanding or expectation or assumptions about what’s going on when they are dealing with a recruiter, then when they are applying directly to the organization. I think there’s a lot of messaging and marketing that recruitment firms are, you know, leadership or C. I. O. C Suite ceo type of jobs. And those feel like they imply a level of corporate nous, maybe certain size of organization, you know, and those are probably more likely the factors that are making folks feel like they don’t want to go for the job than the fact that it pays more money. But

[00:15:43.84] spk_1:
it’s interesting just the existence of a recruiter could be off putting to a lot of folks who internalize messages about their credentials.

[00:15:45.61] spk_0:
Not that I don’t think people should use recruiters, I definitely think they should, but I think that that’s an unspoken reality that is not factored into that article.

[00:16:01.94] spk_1:
Right. Right. Right. Which I’m not sure that he would even acknowledge. Yeah. But okay, I

[00:16:06.74] spk_0:
wanna, can I can I can I steer us back to the question and you always get to steer Can I give

[00:16:10.01] spk_1:
you latitude

[00:17:36.74] spk_0:
well, because you said something that I thought was interesting and we could talk about for a second earlier when you were saying, you know, expertise. Uh and I think that’s also a big part of all of this, is that If you were to take to job listings that you found, that said the salary and they said they were both $60,000 jobs, right? 60,000? Um as your annual salary? Mhm. I cannot imagine that you would find those two jobs, say they’re looking for the same experience or expertise or scope of job, even if they were both in communications are both in in programs, right? So I feel like there’s also an opportunity to be very open and intentional with how we phrase or or position to potential staff, what we were looking for when we hired you, because if it’s just like, you know how to use this database and you know, you know, you know how to do these tactical things, I don’t know how it matters who it is. You hire hire the first person then, right? Like if that’s the thing that’s most important to you, it’s just that they can technically do these things that feels to me like you maybe don’t even need a human. That’s a

[00:17:51.64] spk_1:
pretty, that’s a pretty shallow job description. If it’s just a list of four things that you need to be able to do it, right, then you just hire the first person who can do those four things and it makes no difference who it is,

[00:18:15.74] spk_0:
right? But I see, you know, intent as a dartboard and um see jobs posted in the sector on twitter et cetera all the time. I feel like hiring is kind of picking up now and I see so much of it is like we really want you to have experience with X database or X website platform or you know, and like does any of that matter? Can’t you teach somebody the

[00:18:19.26] spk_1:
database? It’s all trainable, it’s all right, we need somebody who’s trainable

[00:18:49.24] spk_0:
right? Like eager to learn, interested in doing the work that we do, but not that you already know how to do certain things right? That’s not the most compelling. And again back to that idea of like you’re painting a picture for these potential applicants, you’re painting a picture that like what they’re what they’re part of. That magical garden scene is like you have a hammer, you have a shovel, you have some seed like you know, it’s probably looks not as appealing, right? It looks like, oh yes, this is beautiful garden scene and I will sit over here hammering on the bench.

[00:19:26.14] spk_1:
Uh I mean uh I guess what we’re, what we’re talking about though, depends on the level that you’re hiring too. I mean if if an expertise is required in something that’s not that’s not trainable, I mean you so you have I. T. Staff, you have the luxury of having write your own development team. Um

[00:19:26.79] spk_0:
So yes, he does the work of a team. Okay. Okay.

[00:19:32.40] spk_1:
Yes. We’ll shout him out now. Go ahead

[00:19:34.25] spk_0:
dan. Yeah.

[00:20:02.04] spk_1:
So you have the luxury of having a development person, web development person. Um So, you know, he has to have a basic level of skill or or beyond basic in certain things. I don’t know whether it’s C Plus plus or drooping or you know, whatever. I don’t know. Html Well, we’re beyond html That I know. So, you know, at that point you would, you would advertise a fluency with something, wouldn’t you?

[00:20:09.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean when we hired for that position, you know, we certainly wanted to say these are the platforms we’re currently using. Um, but okay. And you need to, you

[00:20:15.11] spk_1:
need to be able to support these.

[00:20:58.64] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. But that was, you know, that’s more of like, hey, this is the job. So stop reading if you don’t know what wordpress is, Maybe not the posting for you, but the things that we really want our, that you, I want to be part of a team where every person has leadership responsibility. You know, you’re not just going to be told what to do. Like you also have to come up with what to do and uh, you know, we want everybody on the team helps with the Ntc. You’re going to like carry a sign down the hallway, put it somewhere. Like you don’t just get to sit at a computer. You know, like we really want to communicate that working at what working in china is like and make clear that that’s what we’re looking for, right vs. The list is for this salary. You can do these five technical things.

[00:25:18.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, Wall Street Journal, UsA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, The Hill Cranes, nonprofit Quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten recent exposure. You want that kind of press turn to has the relationships to make it happen. Turn hyphen two dot c O. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Let’s rejoice this summer. We’ve come so far from a year ago from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in this summer. I hope you can. Yes, there’s a long ways to go to My state. North Carolina is less than 50% vaccinated, but we’re so much further from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in how far we have come. I hope that you can do that in your own way. I hope you can schedule some time away or some just some time. It doesn’t even have to be time away. I hope you can schedule time for yourself, family, friends, all of which we couldn’t do couldn’t do safely a year ago. So let’s rejoice in how far we have come while at the same time recognizing there’s a good way to go before we’re out of the woods with this pandemic with the delta variant now and other possibilities of variations. Yeah, we’ve come a long way. I hope that you can take the time for yourself, for your family, for friends to do some rejoicing this summer. Have some fun, whatever form fun takes for you, whatever it is. If it’s crocheting, if it’s travel, if it’s stay home, okay if it’s more time with kids, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, whatever form fun takes for you. I hope you can do it. I hope you can because we are so much further along than we were this time last year. That is Tony’s take two sending blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag, tisk, tisk. It’s your life if you’re using one of those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits, easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Very melodic. It’s like, it’s iambic pentameter. Almost. How do you encourage job posters on the N 10 job board, which I know is one of your more popular pages on the areas on the, on the site at n 10 dot org of course. Um, I know you require salary their number or arrange a minimum or arrange I guess. But beyond that, what, what can you or what can other folks do to either encourage it if they have a job board or working in their own job descriptions.

[00:26:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think a lot of the other work that we do is not very publicly visible. I have had a number of community members over the years since we’ve been requiring salary where they want to post a position. They themselves had already asked their organization, what’s the salary going to be in the organizations that were not posting it? So then they come to me and say like, I don’t have a lot of positional power. But what I could do is like bring you in on a conversation that put some pressure on, you know, and have some conversation that, that does convince them because even if they didn’t want to do it, they’re doing it gradually. I was looking at them so they did it, you know, you know,

[00:26:10.85] spk_1:
you know that,

[00:26:11.79] spk_0:
well, you

[00:26:13.28] spk_1:
Have the leverage of the N- 10 job board and we’re talking about technology if it detects job, the intent job board is like a Seminole place to be.

[00:26:43.74] spk_0:
Right. Right. So I’ve had lots of places where I’ve either helped people come up with their talking points to take to their team or joined email threads or even had phone calls with hiring managers who weren’t convinced, you know, and just spent 10 minutes talking to them about it, um, to get them kind of to the other side. And I think that’s, You know, while it’s kind of maybe not in my job description, those 10 minute calls or helping somebody with their talking points in a Google dog are changing organizations. And I really love between that work, you know,

[00:27:31.84] spk_1:
but that’s using intense influence the same way you do when you, uh, when you sign contracts for, for the NtC that you insist you have, you have certain requirements from, I guess diversity to food to, you know, whatever you use the leverage, use the leverage in that case it’s dollars in hiring case, it’s the N 10 job board you want to be on it. I mean the bottom line is you got to play by our rules. I’m happy to have a conversation with you about why those rules exist and how they contribute to the in 10 values,

[00:27:33.92] spk_0:
How

[00:27:43.54] spk_1:
they flow from the intent values. Maybe more more eloquent, but more appropriate. But in the end, you know, if you want to be on the job board, you gotta, you gotta use our rules if you want. You want the N 10 money, you want the N 10 conference at your center, then we have, we have certain basic requirements that are unyielding.

[00:28:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting because the intent job board, of course you can post a job, but I think most people think of when they think of a job board, like a part time or full time organization that you are working for overtime. But we also, you can also post gigs or RFP s shorter term project type posts and we require a salary or budget to be listed on those two and that’s actually the place where we get the most push back. Um and folks will say, well we don’t know what our budget is until people reply to our RFP. And while I understand that, could I feel like reality, there is just like a, just like a potential applicant to become an employee. A potential contractor also doesn’t know if this is a project that they should bother trying to take on if they have no idea what your budget. So again, you don’t know what your budget is. You’re not ready to hire. Call for our FPs. You

[00:28:56.38] spk_1:
Need to know whether this is a $10,000 project or $60,000 project. I mean without saying a range of $10-$60,000, which is, which is worthless. People, people do that. Do they say?

[00:29:08.44] spk_0:
Okay, sometimes? Yes.

[00:29:10.03] spk_1:
Alright, well that’s

[00:31:05.24] spk_0:
worth. Sometimes. Yes, we try and catch those and talk to people. But you know, I think that folks, it’s such, it’s also such a privileged position to say like, well, we don’t even know what the budget is, where what I hear in that is whatever people tell us is what we could pay. And I don’t think that most nonprofits have a relationship to their cash flow, where they could say whatever somebody says is what we should pay, right? You you likely do have a discreet budget range And even if you feel like it’s really low and you’re sad that it would look low, it’s better that that’s on the table at the beginning, before a bunch of firms, you know, do a bunch of work. Um, and 10 actually just closed an RFP for our own, like it was on our job board, but it was our own RFP to do a website redesign project. And um, we had talked to, uh, so many firms in the community, but one had kind of expressed a bit of a surprise that we were anticipating 10, maybe 15 Responses to the RFP. That that would be a lot of responses. Well, we got over 40 and what we heard from a lot of people is the reason we got so many is because the RFP was very clear. It said why that was our budget and what what we could do in house, what we needed somebody else to do. So, because we have taken longer than our original timeline was internally to be really clear in the RV, we were able to get so many more potential folks that wanted to work with us. And now of course, I don’t know how long it’s gonna take us to read this many are applications, but um, it’s a better problem to have than than only a few that submit and none of them feel like a good fit. You know, now we’ll be able to choose from a great difficult group of to decide.

[00:31:45.34] spk_1:
So it ends up being worth the internal time that you spent. It was beyond your projected time because you’ve got 433 times the number of applicants, uh, proposals that you were expecting. All right. Right. Um, uh, so let’s talk about the show the salary campaign. Okay. Now you all right. So you said you’re not you’re not a part of it. I didn’t know that had started in the UK for one. I feel like they, um, they suffer some because it’s all it’s all secretive. They don’t reveal.

[00:31:46.69] spk_0:
Doesn’t need to be like,

[00:32:01.04] spk_1:
well, yeah, I mean, I think credibility, I think naming who you are, at least some of whom you are, helps with credibility. You know, purely

[00:32:02.03] spk_0:
seeking. But they do say that there are non profit staff.

[00:32:05.84] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:32:24.34] spk_0:
And I feel like their appeal isn’t saying we like this one organization, you know, we’d like this one funder to change their grant application and we are previous grantees. So we have a level of knowledge. Like there isn’t any, uh, in my opinion, there isn’t any justification you need to do to say, yeah, I think people should have to show their salaries, you know, they

[00:32:38.34] spk_1:
Have, like six or 8 reasons why the salary should be shown. Uh, you know, it’s secretiveness creates suspicion,

[00:32:44.14] spk_0:
doesn’t I just I just don’t share that feeling. I feel

[00:32:48.15] spk_1:
like,

[00:34:03.44] spk_0:
um not the number of people that, like, for example, we have because we have talked on the website and the job board, we have a blog post about why we want people to to include their salary. Um, it’s common that folks that we don’t know or or we’re not first name basis, like community member, we know who they are will tag us in a tweet thread and include our blog post while they are trying to convince someone else. We weren’t even heard of that. We don’t know who these people are that are talking, you know? But they’re like, oh well and then to doesn’t here’s their article and you should really do this. So those people don’t even necessarily know who we are, but they’re using it to support their argument. And I feel like I don’t need to go into that twitter friends like, hello, I am a me I am in ceo these are all of the reasons why I get to exclaim this. And you know, I don’t I don’t know that. I don’t know that the campaign, like so many other campaigns is trying to say that the exclusive use of that hashtag are the eight collaborators on that website, right that like anyone can go appeal to folks that are sharing their salary and ask them to do it. You know that it’s it’s about the message. It’s not about the people who have the capacity to build the website and get it out

[00:34:29.54] spk_1:
there. It is. Yeah. As I said, they have six or eight reasons why you should should show the salary. Um All right. Maybe I’m just more traditionalist, but you know, secretiveness breeds suspicion for me. I would like to see a couple of

[00:34:31.27] spk_0:
names that

[00:34:32.06] spk_1:
Uh and then but then you say, you know, but in that case where you were citing, you know, in 10 gets broke. So other folks brought you in. So you’re they presume your credibility

[00:34:42.94] spk_0:
well. But I think it’s the same way where people that aren’t who I’m just saying that because that’s a random number of people, but like whoever was the friends who created that website, like people don’t need to know them in order to use the hashtag show the salary for saying, you

[00:35:00.54] spk_1:
know, and and to agree with the six or 8 reasons that they

[00:35:03.08] spk_0:
have, which

[00:35:07.04] spk_1:
is you’re all very cogent to me. I just I would like them to go a step further.

[00:35:11.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Ok. I hear your concern. I have nothing to do with them. So I can I will not pass this feedback to anyone. But

[00:36:01.33] spk_1:
you don’t know anybody. I don’t know. It’s like people say this is in confidence. I always say, well, I don’t know anybody to tell. Right? And a few people I do know that nobody listens to me anyway. So, so your your confidence is well kept with me. Don’t worry. Don’t worry about that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. You got my confidence. Absolutely. This isn’t confidence. Absolutely. Okay. Um bringing a little more down to uh, some actionable steps or if the if not actionable, at least, things that folks can consider. And I’m always grateful to you that we can use N 10 as an example. You have, you have the N 10 Equity Guide for nonprofit technology which is at N 10 dot org. And my suggestion after that was just search for Equity guide for nonprofit technology in

[00:36:05.24] spk_0:
your or its underneath the resources either way. Okay.

[00:36:29.53] spk_1:
It’s called the Equity guide for nonprofit technology and you have some things that you recommend there and I’m sure that intend abides by or at least tries to abide by as best as you can. Um, and the first one is that is sort of what we were talking about earlier. Don’t assume expertise in technology radio

[00:38:52.12] spk_0:
and I think that this gets a little bit confusing for folks because they are hiring for a position where whomever is hired saying is you tony I hire you. I know that so much of your day is going to be using these couple systems and I think I’m doing doing a favor to everybody by saying, okay, we really want somebody who already knows how to use these things, right. But it is unlikely that the way you use that database or the way you have set up your website or the way you use white books, you know, whatever it is, is exactly the same organization to organization. Um kind of what we were saying before, you want somebody who’s interested in ready to learn how you use your database and maybe you want somebody who is familiar with what databases do and are and has ever used a database. But the idea that it’s really important to hire someone who’s used that exact same suite of tools, it doesn’t, it’s just not realistic. They have not been customized the way your organization is customized people are using Salesforce in a way that is unrecognizable, Salesforce. That doesn’t mean that because they use Salesforce somewhere else, they automatically know how you’re using it. And all of those things, just as you said at the beginning or a teacher, we should be invested in teaching all staff, all of the technical things they need always, not just in their orientation, right? But technology training is all the time because technology is changing. And when we remove those pieces of focus from the job description, it allows us to really focus on what matters more. That’s less tradable, less teachable. And that is, you know, are you solutions minded? Are you interested in leadership and responsibility? Do you have experience with community engagement? Do you come from this community that we serve? I don’t know what things might be specific to the job that we’re all raised from in here in this example. But getting to elevate those other pieces that are maybe more about what somebody wants to do or has a natural inclination towards, instead of Can you click a mouse on the screen? Like we will teach you how to do that part, you know? But if you don’t like working with people, maybe that’s not the job because they’re clicking the button so that they can talk to people right? Like there’s something else happening in that job and focus on that instead

[00:39:10.22] spk_1:
related to that making training accessible. Uh, so, you know, I mean, to me there, those really go hand and glove. I mean, don’t assume a certain type of expertise and then you need to make the training accessible. And as you just said, you know, throughout, because technology is changing, it’s not

[00:40:45.21] spk_0:
just not everybody learns in the same way orientation. Uh just saying like, oh yeah, we made this internal wiggy and there’s a bunch of pages, How about it? Like not everyone can just go look at this wiki. They didn’t make themselves and learn from it. So know that however you’re going to invest in training, its investing in different types of opportunities to learn the same, maybe core functions so that people can engage the way that that works for them. And then take, for example, the way that we do this is we like to, you know, document things so that it is written down for people that like to have the guide of, okay, step one step to do some uh recorded a recorded screen where someone is clicking through doing the thing right? And then everybody brings their computer to a meeting and we all do it out loud together at the same time so that somebody can say I did a practice one of these before the meeting and now it’s showing me the screen and then everybody can look and you’re like, oh my screen looks like this, your screen looks like this. Let’s all learn what this error is, you know? Um and it means that of course it normalizes that everyone needs to learn these things and it isn’t just, you know, one person’s job, but it also creates this opportunity for really deep learning because we engaged in that so many different ways, you know, as a team,

[00:41:04.01] spk_1:
community learning right together. Yeah. Um you know, requiring equitable equipment policies and and that’s related to bring your own device,

[00:42:27.50] spk_0:
bring your own device, something we saw at the start of the pandemic, even beyond, Bring your own device was, you know, in an organization where there’s uh in use a very traditional hierarchy, people that were directors or above got to have Apple laptops. So when they said, okay, work from home, they were ready to go. The managers and below had desktop computers, so they were not ready to go, you know, um, and there wasn’t uh, acknowledgment of the inequity there. And I think that’s a very easy case in point where you can think about that. But we’ve received so many questions over the last 16 months of people saying, okay, well, now that our organization is convinced, then we can kind of kind of maintain a hybrid model going forward. They still haven’t changed the policies that say directors get a new computer every two years and everybody else gets one every six years, but my computer is dying, you know, and I don’t qualify. So the option I’m being told by my own or use my own, which of course isn’t, isn’t equitable is not a fair expectation, but it also creates all these other security vulnerabilities were now working off of machines that are part of the organization’s college.

[00:42:46.30] spk_1:
It goes yes, it is inequitable. It’s also high risk. Right? So, so the employee buys their own now, how do you know what else they have on it? It belongs to them. They are welcome to their privileged and entitled to put whatever they want on it. And how do you know? And what? So now what kind of devices, your data being stored on?

[00:43:22.50] spk_0:
Right. Exactly. And where are people accessing it from? You know, a number of organizations often try to address some level of security vulnerability by making sure that all of the staff laptops have a VPN and they know how to turn the VPN on, but then when they start using their tablet or their own personal computer to do that work in a different way, they’re not going through the VPN. So there’s just so many places where it undermines other efforts you have actually invested in because you are not thinking about what it needs to have devices for everybody that works for them.

[00:44:29.89] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And let’s wrap up with, and there’s, there’s many more, there’s probably a dozen different, if again, if not action, actionable items, at least items for you to think about and discuss all throughout the, uh, in this, in the intent equity guide for nonprofit technology. There’s a lot more than what we’re just the couple that I’m that I’m raising with Amy, that we’re talking about supporting remote work obviously, very timely, uh, enormously, you know, but um, everybody doesn’t have, uh, there’s not the same level of, of broadband access. We know this, I mean, you’ve been you’ve been active for years on the broadband equity. Um and now it’s part of biden’s infrastructure proposal. Well, how much of that will get past? Very uncertain, right? Some people only define infrastructure as macadam and concrete and bricks and mortar and beyond that, you know, they don’t want to know about infrastructure. So, you know, you can’t even assume the simplest things that so many of us take for granted exist among all your among all your staff.

[00:45:49.19] spk_0:
And, you know, I think what’s just so confounding to me is the number of organizations who last March said, oh my gosh, we have to work from home. So they didn’t, they worked from home, they work from home for over a year, and now they’re saying you have to be in the office to work, which what I hear when someone says that is that You do not believe work happened for the last 16 months, and I’m pretty sure that work did have, and it probably happened in ways that were better for each individual staff person managing their day and their needs and what else they had going on in their life. So if if folks have to be in the office, sitting at that desk in front of the screen to be quote unquote work came to me that says, you don’t think what can happen unless they are being surveilled while they do it, right? That realizing you’re stuck and you are definitely not working on this article you need to work on. So you’re gonna get up and like make a big fresh pot of tea that that’s not a part of your human management of your

[00:45:53.61] spk_1:
valuable to you.

[00:46:50.98] spk_0:
Right. Right. So, I think organizations that are pushing for this kind of return to in person are really hurting their staff. There are staff. We’ve already seen articles about staff are leaving on mass instead of returning because that’s not it’s the bar, right? Like we have said, the bar is I should be able to be a human that can be trusted to do my job and also live my life. And organizations that can’t respect that I think are not going to have the kind of, you know, talent and diversity that they may say they want. Um, and what I think is important to also acknowledges, there are people for whom working in the office is ideal for them because they can’t focus at home or at home. There are too many other demands on their time from family members or, or whatever else. But That one person working best in the office doesn’t mean everyone else has to be there. Exactly 9-5 with them, right. There should still be a way to support folks who are really great staff and just can’t be in the office, you know?

[00:47:26.88] spk_1:
Yeah. There are folks who want to be nomads now. You know, we, we can’t ignore what, what we learned over the past 16 months and what people have learned about themselves as well as what hopefully organizations learned about themselves and their people. These lessons, you know, these lessons are with us now for generations, right?

[00:47:31.78] spk_0:
And that’s our opportunity to learn from them and get better and grow versus hold on to an idea of something that also wasn’t working before the pandemic,

[00:48:23.97] spk_1:
right? But we just very few people have the courage. Very few organizations have the courage to attempt something different, okay. And they got forced into it to marches ago and we can’t ignore the lessons that we’ve learned and people are not, people are not going to be willing to take a step back. So yeah, if your organization is insisting, I would say especially now during the summer, I mean, if it’s maddening, I mean, uh, you know, I’ve had folks tell me that their offices go, they’re going back to the office starting in like mid june or july. It’s the summer for Pete’s sake. Nobody had any any summer in 2020. So if, if you have any humanity at all, at least wait until september or maybe even october. But even beyond then, right, you know, we’ve learned so much and people are not going to be willing to go backwards. And if you want, if you want to retain the best people, you know, some of them are going to want to be nomads. Now, some of them,

[00:48:33.52] spk_0:
you’re going to want to be able to be at home when their kid is sick and not have to take off work. Yeah.

[00:48:49.67] spk_1:
Okay. It’s, it’s equity, it’s tech, it’s hiring, its, its retention, it’s good policies

[00:49:01.37] spk_0:
and I think part of how we ended up going all over the place of this conversation is just a reflection of how interconnected all these things are and kind of directional. If you, if you can’t share your salary on your job description, you’re probably, what else are you hiding from people? Oh, now they’re hired. They probably don’t get to have a great computer that they choose, right? Like it’s all part of the same mess.

[00:49:32.17] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. We only contribute 25% of health care premiums. Yeah, exactly. All right. All right. Thank you. Amy Amy sample award ceo of intent. Our technology and social media contributor. Uh, you’ll find her at AMY sample ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward. Thank you for fun. Provocative, interesting conversation. Thank you.

[00:49:41.35] spk_0:
Thank you. As always.

[00:51:25.96] spk_1:
Next week it’s Jean Takagi returns. It’s Jean Takagi. Next week Jean Takagi returns with your one hour legal audit. Who writes this copy this middling lackluster coup. This is why I need an intern. I haven’t put the word out for interns lately, oddly nobody ever applies, but I need an intern to blame for this middling copy. So if you know someone who wants to be blamed, introduce them to me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant End in Blue. Creative Producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott. Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Yeah. What?