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Nonprofit Radio for September 20, 2021: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

My Guest:

Pratichi Shah: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

Starting with your people, your culture and your leadership, how do you identify, talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit? My guest is Pratichi Shah, founder & CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions. (Originally aired 7/8/20)

 

 

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We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Nonprofit Radio for September 13, 2021: Effective Fundraising

My Guest:

Warren McFarlan: Effective Fundraising

That’s Warren McFarlan’s new book. It’s written for potential board members, but it’s a valuable study for those on the ground, doing the work.

 

 

 

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Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.

 

We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello

[00:00:09.59] spk_1:
and welcome to

[00:00:10.46] spk_2:
tony-martignetti non profit

[00:01:46.64] spk_1:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with like the Asus vulgaris if you drive me out with the idea that you missed this week’s show effective fundraising. That’s Warren Mcfarland’s new book. It’s written for potential board members, but it’s a valuable study for those on the ground doing the work. tony state too planned giving in the pandemic era were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s my pleasure to welcome Warren McFarlane to the show. F Warren Mcfarland is the Albert H. Gordon? Professor of Business Administration Emeritus at Harvard Business School. So F Warren McFarlane is the guy I’m talking to. Albert H. Gordon is the guy who endowed professorship He fr McFarland has spent the past 40 years serving on social enterprise boards, helping organizations find the right leaders advanced their missions and raise the necessary supporting funds. I don’t know anything more about Albert H. Gordon. F Warren Mcfarland is a retired esteemed professor. You don’t need a website. You don’t need twitter Warren, welcome to the occasionally crass

[00:01:48.87] spk_0:
non profit radio it’s directly with you this morning.

[00:01:54.74] spk_1:
What’s a pleasure? Thank you for joining us. Congratulations on the book.

[00:01:56.44] spk_0:
Thank you very much it’s been uh

[00:02:36.24] spk_1:
and you’ve written it for trustees are really potential trustees, but I think there are a lot of good lessons in here for for folks who are doing fundraising. So that’s why, you know, because our audience isn’t so much potential trustees, but it is fundraising on the ground in small and midsize nonprofits. So very apt subject. And I was glad to hear about your book. You Pretty much open with a chapter chapter #2 on governance governance. Why do you, why do you put governance ahead of getting into the fundraising topics in the

[00:02:57.74] spk_0:
book? I think because governance sets the context for fundraising. The governor’s committee on the board, I think is probably the most important of the committees and they are the people responsible for identifying the people that will serve on the board. That will be able to help, uh, fundraising in one way or another, either personally or helping to make connections, general context and, and, and so forth. So that I really put it up because the three major roles of a nonprofit board, our number one approving the mission and the strategy of their uh, number two, hiring retaining and supporting the Ceo and certainly basically helping to secure the funds. And that’s a hard, difficult kind of things. My friends who head up nonprofits repeatedly say it’s 50% of their time that is spent on that. And it’s just hard, difficult kind of work. And that’s why I really, you wrote the book to help focus new board members attention on how vital their role was in helping to set the context for an organization to succeed.

[00:04:00.94] spk_1:
Yeah, fundraising. So let’s give a shout out to your previous book, which dealt with those three topics, but this book fleshes out the fundraising that the third of Exactly yes. Your tell folks what your your first book was that had more focused on the first two of those

[00:04:06.74] spk_0:
the

[00:04:07.63] spk_1:
roles of the board.

[00:04:26.44] spk_0:
The first, my first book was really aimed on governance of nonprofits, what a board member needs to know. And it really looked in a very broad kind of way. You’re focusing on mission structure, uh budgeting, planning and so forth. And that fundraising was one of the pieces in the book, but it was such an important piece. And I’ve been spending so much time working on it that I really felt there was need for another book to kind of taken and blow apart. Was one chapter in the other book into the, into this book.

[00:04:50.04] spk_1:
Yeah, because we know fundraising is at least 50% of an effective ceos time spent. And you make that point in the book a couple of times, but give a shout out what’s the exact title of the previous book?

[00:04:56.56] spk_0:
Uh Corporate Information Systems Management, I’m sorry?

[00:05:00.07] spk_1:
No, no, that that can’t be a different book for a different,

[00:05:11.64] spk_0:
I have to have to go back and think of something, but it was basically joining a nonprofit board. What you need to know.

[00:05:26.84] spk_1:
Okay, so is that it joining? Okay, because we’re talking about effective fundraising, the trustees role and beyond. Uh, and, uh, okay. So the previous one. Okay, joining a nonprofit board. What you need to know? Exactly. Right. Well, I don’t know why I doubted the author of the book. Just you maybe a little nervous when you talk about corporate information systems. I don’t know. That’s a

[00:05:35.79] spk_0:
different, wasn’t really part of my

[00:05:52.64] spk_1:
life. It’s a different, it’s a different book. The man’s prolific. You know, he gets, he’s written so many books. He gets the book titles confused. That’s all right. All right. Um, I’m not sure that many of our listeners, again, small and mid sized shops have a governance committee specifically. What’s, what’s the role of that committee? They may be doing governance maybe in their executive committee. Perhaps it doesn’t get smaller, smaller and midsize or what’s the role of the governance

[00:06:52.24] spk_0:
committee? It’s basically, it’s a nominating committee. Its role is to attract, uh, the right kinds of trustees to the organization to help talk them into doing it, to help get them, uh, slotted into the right kind of role. Worry about getting the right people and then helping them as when they finished their term to be involved in other ways because one of the critical things. And so I view that, uh, for for profit boys are very different. I’ve served in a number of them. They’re very exciting. And when you’re over the job is over. You’re gone for a nonprofit board. This is meant to be a lifelong relationship and one of the organization work. That’s right now why we’ve Now developed a committee of some, uh, 35 former board members. We have them sitting on various committees and so forth. And with that, they have stayed involved with the organization. And with it comes a philanthropy. They’re building willingness to keep people you involved. So is this an entirely different kind of concept? And it means that you have to that a nonprofit board is often less efficient because you have to deal with people’s idiosyncrasies in a way that you don’t in the for profit world because I’m not actually going to take a major donor who’s a little bit careless and sort of, you’ll cut them off too sharply.

[00:07:39.64] spk_1:
Yeah. You make a good point about the trusteeship and the end of the trusteeship still being a, uh, warren, are you able to silence those? Um, that sounds like an email notification you’re getting. Are you able to,

[00:07:51.97] spk_0:
I’m sorry.

[00:08:25.04] spk_1:
Okay, no problem. Thank you. Um, the end of the trusteeship is just a continuation in the spectrum of the, the lifetime relationship with the nonprofit. I, I think a lot of non profit to make a mistake there and they figure, okay, the person served three years, six years, Hopefully not more than six. That’s another subject. But, you know, they’ve served their time. And, and now they just, you know, we hope they’ll continue to give. But that’s the end of sort of the, uh, it’s the end of the volunteer volunteering of the relationship. And I think that’s a mistake. Your, your former board members. You know, there may be an emeritus board or some kind of an advisory board or, you know, some other way to not lose that expertise that they gained while they were trustees.

[00:09:18.14] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s exactly the key point that I recall her often, a board of advisors or a corporation or two things that people, you know, calling for. And that was it. One of the jobs economic committee is to help figure out what the new, as somebody comes near the end of their term, how they will be able to be involved and get them involved in in the right kind of way now. And that basically tremendously increases your footprint. You must have term on that because you need to continually bring new people in while you’re bringing them and then in why taking care of the older people is, is, uh, can be, it’s, you’ve got a lot of value ideas and also philanthropy wise.

[00:09:35.34] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Think through that, that post board member post trusteeship relationship,

[00:09:57.74] spk_0:
I’m involved in four board, I’m involved in for nonprofit boys. Now, the links to them go back over almost 40 years and it’s evolved from one setting to another. And the power, you know, grows. And so that there was an annual giving then there was, uh, capital campaign giving. And at my stage in life now, why planned giving? It turns out to be a particularly important thing.

[00:10:25.04] spk_1:
Sure. Yeah. You say the fundraiser is an educator of donors. That’s a, that’s a pretty, uh, basic lesson. But I want you to flush it out for folks because sometimes basic lessons are, you know, they’re foundational for a reason they’re worth revisiting and thinking about why, why do you say fundraisers are educators of donors?

[00:11:50.34] spk_0:
It’s really helping somebody to understand how they can go about, um, contributing in ways they haven’t thought, I mean, they, that I’m working with somebody right now and they’re that some tragedy in their family. And we’ve been able to sort of help them think through how this new facility they’re building, is going to help the organization and help their grief and fill their needs. So that, uh, it’s, uh, it’s very important that when I go out and ask people from, uh, you know, for money, I’m not asking them for money. I’m asking for them to be able to contribute contribute to society in a way bigger than they can on their own. And it’s, it’s really opening up an opportunity for the person opportunity they often haven’t thought about in their, in their own ways. And that you’re one of the things that died. And I talked about this for trustees is that the first thing that I do is in fact, the trustee is you’ve got to believe in the cause and have made your own contribution because when it comes right down to crunch time and I’m looking somebody in the eye and they say warrant, what have you done first? You know, this is my number one or two financing and this is and here’s why I’ve done it. That there’s a credibility that that comes out of it. And the reality is that many donors, their lives are busy and they haven’t thought through the array of alternatives they can contribute to and how they can go about extending their leverage.

[00:12:12.34] spk_1:
So the fundraisers job is to educate, educate them and educate about the work that’s being done also what those exactly those programs are doing. Um I I presume you’re a believer in 100% participation, fundraising participation on the board.

[00:12:33.74] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean on the one hand and say, and people give in relation of capacity, I was the chairman of the board of the hospital. I’m sorry. You

[00:12:39.30] spk_1:
cut out a little bit there people

[00:12:40.35] spk_0:
give chairman. I was a chairman of a border.

[00:12:42.79] spk_1:
Wait 11 further step back. People giving what level, What did you say?

[00:13:07.34] spk_0:
I say people, Uh, it’s not the level that you give your question. It was your your question was do I believe in 100%. I do, but I want to say at the hospital board share. I valued the $25 I got from the homeless mother in East Cambridge As much as I did. The 200,000 from the main present because she was the eyes and ears of the community. She gave enormous value and her commitment was to the institution. So that’s why I believe in the 100%.

[00:13:30.14] spk_1:
Right? And, and of course for someone without a home, $25 as a stretch gift. So, yes. All right. And so you you would you go along the philosophy that there’s not a minimum giving level for for for every board member, every board member gives something that’s a stretch for their capacity, given their capacity. Is that is that how you would define it?

[00:13:44.54] spk_0:
Or? The answer is yes. But uh, yes. Yes. But

[00:13:50.98] spk_1:
that’s fair. Yes.

[00:13:51.89] spk_0:
Yes. It is on the real high end gifts. I might be willing to be the number of four philanthropy. I have two or three situations I’ve been in where, you know, somebody has given me a sort of a go away uh, token gift to them which has actually helped the enterprise meets goals. They didn’t even know they could have. So, I mean, it’s one of the things that we find in uh, in 2021 is that the shape of the giving pyramid has really become much steeper and taller. And so therefore the people at the top of the uh, the Jeff Bezos, his wife Mackenzie and so forth. I mean they uh, a small gift for her is a transforming gift, you know, for the receiving your organization. So that’s, that’s kind of the exception that I was referring to.

[00:15:04.24] spk_1:
And then after someone has given you, you talk about stewardship as you know, the engagement of past donors and trustees. And you say, stewardship is not an overhead item, but an offensive weapon. So let’s talk about stewardship. What, what, why? Why again, basic lessons. But, you know, I want people to get your perspective, ownership is a stewardship is so damn important,

[00:16:29.24] spk_0:
um, that you give a gift, um, for, uh, let’s say for an endowed chair that you maybe do that if you’re in your fifties or sixties, that when they come back and tell you how that chair is performing, it’s an opportunity for them to engage your thinking on the next level and the next level that, uh, one of them is going through a very different situation hospital where they didn’t report how the gifts were doing. You know, for people they gave, and they were wondering why people were dropping off the whole notion of it’s a lifelong engagement. And when you come in to tell somebody how their, uh, previous investment organizations doing, there’s a lot of interest on that part of the person hearing, how did their money do, But you’re also there in the opportunity to talk about other kinds of things and opportunities and move the discussion forward. And it may have been that an annual fund gift around the class reunion that may in due course lead no to a capital campaign. You’ll give, you know, somewhat further on down the road and it may be a plan gift even, you know, you know further down the road. And of course the art of the question is when you’re managing these lifelong relationships, you have to be careful not to move too much clothes quickly because if you in fact uh, get the short term gift, you may also be turning off the long term relationship, which can be more important. That’s that’s why this is such an art to this, this fundraising.

[00:17:19.84] spk_1:
Yeah. And and there’s a whole variety of stewardship methods, you’re focusing on reporting on the impact. But you know, if, if the first few gifts are, you know, in the 150 to $500 range, No, that’s, it’s hard to place impact, put impact upon that. But how, how would you steward those three and low four figure gifts? Uh

[00:18:15.94] spk_0:
It’s actually your point is that one of the first things when somebody graduates from college is we have all kinds of incentives to just get in the habit of giving $50 for $100 you know, for each of the 1st 10 years and you have a 10 year giving club that has given 10 years in a row, all 10 years enrolled for a, somebody who’d gone for 22 to 32 doesn’t add up to a lot. But the habit of delivering the habit of giving the engagement and so forth. That’s what’s really laying the seeds for much deeper support of some of them. You’re further down the road. And

[00:18:59.44] spk_1:
that makes me think of another stewardship method. You know, the recognition society, I think a lot of folks don’t think about having a recognition society based on longevity of giving. So you know, of course you’re using the, you know, 10 years, someone graduates from college if you can get them in a habit of giving for 10 years, there’s a very good chance unless you blow it That, you know, they’ll be giving for the next 40 and 50 years in increasing increments and in different ways and as as you’ve talked about. But that that method of recognizing giving for longevity, those folks who have been given to you for 25, 30 years and there’s longstanding organizations that have donors that do go back that far And maybe, you know, maybe maybe out of 30 years, the person missed two years as you give them a break or something, you know, but what you have, I mean, I longevity, not just the dollar amount each year

[00:20:08.64] spk_0:
as you’re talking about a fearful reports from right to my mind where the little asterisks, beside the people who’ve given for each of the last 10 years and double asterisks for the last one and you actually look at it and that of course is, you know, one of the things that’s important is that development people want to a point that putting out development reports and give them reports and so Fort is very expensive and you really should do this on the web and on screen. The fact of the matter is when I’m at my most philosophic, I’m flipping through report and I’m saying what my classmates or associates did on, it’s an organization my Children involved, I may flick back down to another part of saying and it just turned out to be false economies and a lot of the people that have undone the paper stuff and brought online have had to back off the other way because discussions and ruminations which were important were taking place.

[00:20:14.10] spk_1:
Yeah. You, you, you have some uh, anecdotes about that in, in the book which you know, we can, we can go, we can’t dive into all the stories. You just got to get the book. You just got to buy effective fundraising. So

[00:20:50.94] spk_0:
just start, uh, it starts from the very beginning, I think for example, uh, as I entered Harvard College as a freshman And my second day there, I’m sitting with 1100 people in the room and somebody is talking right and left and those are the people that aren’t there because you’re there and you’re feeling pretty good. And the next comment he made blew my mind, he said, and every last one of you was on financial aid. Uh, my father did not communicate me, talked a lot about the expense and he said, you’re here because of the philanthropy and generosity of the generations that came before. But at your 25th reunion, you will have an opportunity, will pay that generosity and the numbers went something like that. That thing just slow across the room. And 1100 mines. A lot of it’s stuck there. And, and the 20th reunion, there was a $200,000 gift. And at the 25th, there was an 8.5 million and the 35th. It was a 25. And that the habit, you lay the idea down very early

[00:22:40.24] spk_1:
On the very first day, they say 25th, he’s already got you giving to the 25th reunion. That’s right. Right. Right. All right now. seven. It doesn’t have to be a college. There’s there’s a very good lesson there. My synesthesia is kicking in. I’m getting goose bumps. Thank you. They listen talking about this. Uh, yeah, there’s a very good, you know, you get people in early and you and you and you cultivate those relationships. You cultivate that, that relationship long term from the, from the outset, You know, so, so for your organization’s, you know, take the lesson there. You may not, you may not be a school, you know, the first day of college, but you can be cultivating from the very early stages. Absolutely, a long term relationship. All right? Yeah, stewardship critical again, warren calls it an offensive weapon. Um, let’s talk about the head of the development Committee. This is something that I’m sure listeners do have. Even if, you know, even if it’s a small board, there’s at least a development committee of, you know, two, maybe three folks. But you spend time on the, on the, you know, in the, in the parties to the, to the board, talking about the head of the Development Committee and some skills that you like to see there. What what are you looking for in, in that position?

[00:26:09.54] spk_0:
If somebody who’s got to be able to mobilize other trustees to come and join in the giving operation, the ability to reach out, uh, into the rest of the board, make them understand this is part of their job. They had somebody who, whatever their going out and talking about the organization. The organization is in their mind maybe to me don’t, but uh, Is a, it’s a job that’s 24 hours per day, seven days a week, and even more so for the development person. But uh, I just remember a situation that, uh, I was heading up the capital campaign for a religious organization, came out in the Boston Common in early january, you know, the temperature was about two degrees, the wind was blowing. It was miserable. I had 300 yards to go and I ran into one of my former students, uh going on, he stopped and said, what are you doing? I said, I’m going off, you know, to to join this. Uh this just felt me, this religious organization said, oh, you know, I’m a member of that religion, this is somebody who has, his wealth was considerable. And I just kind of stopped and said, well, you’ll tell me more. The temperature suddenly went up to about 60 degrees, the wind dropped down and I said, I was a senior warden of my church down in New Jersey. Yes, I said, but you’re not there anymore, So which church do you belong somewhere? I’m now up with the one in Wellesley. And I said, that’s terrific. And we disappeared out. I got to the office and sat down and he said, listen, this is what it is all about. And that my former student was in his office, you know, three weeks later for lunch and over lunch, you know why? That the head of the terrorist organization uh expressed an interest to actually see this person perform in the classroom. And so I never want to see me teach. But he went and watched this summer student of mine no teach. And that led to another nice consistent pro bono consulting assignment. And uh and Result of the whole thing was system is about $500,000 gifts that took place in such a tasteful way, you never even know what happened, but that’s something you just do recognize the opportunity and you have to stop, you know, put the thing together. You got to be creative and the head of the Development Committee, I want them there. They need to breathe and live the organization. You know, 100% of the time, it means they’ve got to have a close working relationship with the Chief development on Mr. They have to have a close relationship with the Ceo to make sure that they’re always always in

[00:30:30.54] spk_1:
line. Great, great wisdom. Yeah. And uh, you say you want the person to be persistent and fearless and you know, that all that, that all is uh, epitomized by this story you just told that’s outstanding. Thank you. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and they’ll get that voice heard in the right outlets like The Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, Fast Company Market watch many others where they have the relationships to get you heard. So what does this mean? Get your voice uh, find your voice and then get it out there. Well, defining the voice. They’ll help you craft your message. I mean, you’ve got your key points, but you want to make them cogently concise coherent. Look at that. Cogent, concise, coherent. Yeah, that’s what you want to do. So that when you’re talking to the journalists at these incredibly good outlets, You get quoted. That’s what you want. You want the quotes. I mean you know saying that you said something and then they paraphrase it. Yeah that’s pretty good to look. It’s your name, it’s your organization of course. But the quotes that’s the gold standard. Turn to will help you craft your message is you know what the message are. They’ll work with you to make it. What did I say? Cogent write, cogent, concise, coherent so that you get the quotes in these excellent outlets. So help you find your voice, they help you get that voice heard turn to communications. You know this your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s time for Tony’s take two. I’ve got a free timely webinar coming up for you planned giving in the pandemic era. It’s graciously hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. I’m grateful for that. Their gracious. I’m grateful. We’re doing this on september 30th. From 2 to 3 Eastern time. I’m going to talk about what planned giving is who your best prospects are. Where to start your program and how planned giving fits in our pandemic era and of course you got to have the all important Q. And A. That’s where the focus goes on what you’re thinking what what is on your mind. I can only channel so much of you. I need you to fill in the rest. So that’s the all important Q. And A of course plenty of time for that also. So you have to make a reservation, it’s free. But you got to reserve, you go to J. M. T like Juliet mike tango from the old Air force days. Military folks will appreciate that. Also private pilots, JMT consulting dot com then events and then expert speaker series. That’s the only category they have. I would have put me under something like middling speaker series or lackluster speaker series. But alas, they don’t have those categories there. Of course. The problem is not going to create a category just for me as well. Just stick with their default category of expert speaker series and squeeze me in there. So that’s um, that’s where, that’s where you go. JMT consulting dot com events, expert speaker series. It’s all on september 30th two to three Eastern. I hope you’ll be with me for planned giving in the pandemic era. That is Tony’s take two we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for effective fundraising with Professor Warren Macfarlane. Another another part of the part of the board is the board chair. The chair and the Ceo the chair Ceo relationship that that’s critical. I’ve I’ve seen very dysfunctional relationships where there was micromanagement and you know, too much in the details. But I’ve also seen very healthy relationships where it’s it’s it’s supportive and collegial between the board chair and the ceo talk about that relationship please.

[00:33:47.34] spk_0:
It’s the most sensitive one. You know, in the, in the organization that the ceo is that it’s first of all, it’s peculiar to nonprofits. This is not known in the for profit world. And for that, the notion of an unpaid non executive chair of the board uh working with a paid seal. Uh the first problem is people have, coming from the private sector, have trouble understanding how that system works, that it means that the two have to be in public very much. It’s a Pataca. I can remember that, you know, one board that I chair, that the uh CEO and I would fight furiously but always 10 miles or more away from corporate headquarters. But when you’re there with the board and with the stamp, the hands around each other’s shoulders of the, like the jokes were going back and forth and you made sure you couldn’t put a slim nail you in between the two of us. I mean, that relationship is just an absolutely critical kind of one. Now, what’s also interesting courses, in some cases, why the chair maybe a very much of a development uh project, that there was a wonderful book that was just written by one of my former students said, hey Jim, who is a uh investment maker in in new york, he is chairman of the University of Russia’s Sir board of trustees. And his book describes, you know, how when he was asked to do that job, he said, I just can’t do it because I’m amazing. I need Rochester’s short of money. We need somebody to really raise the money and the president just kept working on. And finally my friends, these types of books, just what is the largest gift that’s ever been given To Roger? So it was back in 1926. George Eastman gave $26 million dollars and uh, he spent some more time and money and his family said Rochester did so much for me. We’re going to do a little bit more than that. Now that’s the chairman who, I mean, he gives with his treasure, he gives his time and his block and he’s a, he’s a remarkable person. He was an orphan basically from orphanages from the time he was age seven to age 16, and one in ROTC scholarship out of the orphanage, you know, into uh, into Rochester. But the whole notion behind that in terms of how our chairman can support is really, it’s, the chairman must be philanthropically oriented, must understand the development mission, must be able to uh, work around the strengths and weaknesses, you know, of the Ceo

[00:33:55.34] spk_1:
uh, fill me in a little inside baseball on corporate boards. What what’s the role, what is the role of a board chair on a corporate board.

[00:34:22.84] spk_0:
Um, the, in the, in the ideal world, the board share is a sports chair and Ceo and you have a president and chief operating officer boy. So the board share it, Uh, it’s basically, it’s, it’s the Ceo job. Now from time to time with emergence, You may have somebody left over from emergency you need to send with, so you may make them sort of a non executive chair of the board and give them a nice office about 10 miles away from corporate headquarters and the three years work while you work your way through your retirement, earn out and so forth.

[00:35:16.74] spk_1:
Okay. So it often is the, it’s the chairman, Ceo chair chair and Ceo. Okay. All right. So going back to nonprofits, what’s your advice warrant on fixing the relationship? I mean, if I think CEOs would know if they have a dysfunctional relationship, whether it’s micromanagement or maybe the board chair is too hands off. Maybe he or she is not a strong leader of the board, not a consensus. What, what advice do you have for the C. E. O. S. Two improve the relationship with the

[00:36:15.53] spk_0:
board chair? Well, there, there’s several things, you know, the first one is that The length of tenure of the board share, uh, is often just 2-3 years And if you want people to rotate through that. But the critical person, this is again, is the head of the governance committee that the head of the government’s committee is one of your wisest, most senior atrocities and their job is to make sure that that relationship is working. And if it’s not working to find a way to sort of you move the thing along, it’s a it’s just it’s a terribly difficult and awkward thing and of course it’s complicated because you know, people have tremendous egos, it’s alm except that uh the people amass the well father to do these jobs, they don’t suffer from an underdeveloped of self concept. And so how you deal with their he goes uh is very tricky,

[00:36:29.43] spk_1:
right? But so what, you know, what what specifically I mean, do we have a heart to heart conversation with them and say look, you know, I think, you know, and I know, you know, this relationship is not ideal. Can we can we talk about it or you know, or is it just, I mean, I hate to leave folks just wait until the board chair’s term has ended and then, you know, we hope to do better in with their successor,

[00:38:16.52] spk_0:
their to their to their their two or three different ways. The first one is uh the question is whether it’s the board chair problem or the C. E. O. I mean, this is of course, you know, one of the problems because in fact the paid Ceo does report, you know, to the board and to the board chair. So the the power actually lies on the on the other uh side that the question there that they’re all they’re all kinds of consultants who can come and help, you know mediate these things. But when you get to that level, it’s already broken in a distaste away and the hardest problem is to try and avoided getting in it at the beginning and that has to do with how you pick the people, you know, in in, in the roles and that uh, sometimes we was in a very difficult situation from your skull were uh, the new board share uh, just almost immediately immediately started pushing things in that as he learned about the organization, uh, he came up with a strategy just wasn’t going to work for them and we had to reach in and in the most tender way, get him out. But then this is because uh, to get him out knowing he could also be a supporter of the organization. And so it was just about as complicated as you can say to get the dirty deed done, but we love you, we need to and can help you and the boys a lot of scrambling and a lot of stomach just turned around and came to a happy ending on on that part of it. But if the strategy that was would not have worked and would have actually driven the organization the bankruptcy,

[00:39:08.72] spk_1:
you have to be very, very careful about circumspect about who you put in the board leadership, you know, if even even vice chair because the presumption is that the vice chair is gonna become the chair, assuming he or she is, you know, competent. So you have to be careful there and and other board leadership positions to its it’s very important and you you you’re right, I mean you can end up with uh it’s something that really is is detrimental to the organization and you’re stuck, you know, for two or three years.

[00:39:30.42] spk_0:
Well. And you know, this is of course why it goes back to your very first question when you asked me, you know, why did I pick the governance committee to start? It’s because that’s the place where these issues get sorted out and need to be sought on the strategic way. Mhm.

[00:39:31.32] spk_1:
Yeah. Put put time into thinking about these things and planning, planning, succession planning, I presume you have a succession plan for for the ceo you know, there should be succession planning on the board as well. You know, we talked about as people leave the board, but succession,

[00:40:09.31] spk_0:
oh we know the slots that you’re needing to recruit for. I always need to have a couple of uh potential board chairs ahead of the Finance committee, one or two heads of the development committee and the job, it’s a delicate because when you who clued somebody onto the board, you often have a view as to what role they’re going to be best set. They may not, however, understand that and they may be so excited to be on the board that they want to sort of dive into some area or they have neither skill nor So it requires some discussion to sort of make it that make that work out.

[00:40:58.01] spk_1:
Yeah, I was invited to be a board member once and I I turned it down because I didn’t think the organization had really thought through what benefit I could bring to the border. You know, why I’d be a good board member. Um, it was a smaller organization and I was supporting the work. But I I didn’t I just didn’t feel that they had done their due diligence around me and you know, why they wanted me. It was just, well, you’re a supporter, you know, you’re you’re in the area. So, you know, would you like to be a board member? And

[00:41:00.97] spk_0:
I mean,

[00:41:02.86] spk_1:
time, time constraints went into it also, but I didn’t, I didn’t feel and I continued supporting the organization, but I didn’t feel they had they were really taking board membership as seriously as they should, even as a small organization.

[00:41:18.91] spk_0:
Yeah. You never know until it does man, you got mixed into all these things and it can turn so bad, so you’re just much better to not get started and getting into one that doesn’t fit

[00:41:47.81] spk_1:
right. And then, you know, the embarrassment of you have made me having to leave before your term is over and then there’s bad feelings there, and I just Yeah, so think through, you know, be careful about, be thoughtful, be circumspect about who you invite on your board,

[00:41:49.02] spk_0:
That’s

[00:41:49.65] spk_1:
two or three years can be a long time with the difficult board member or a couple of board members. Two or three years can be a long time.

[00:41:58.11] spk_0:
Yeah. And a lot of them maybe, uh, sits here so

[00:42:09.60] spk_1:
well. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a long, that’s an awful long term. Six years. I mean I’m all for, you know, maybe extending for a second term, two or three years and then, and then the second term. But

[00:43:13.60] spk_0:
I remember this battle that I lost some years ago when on sports share and that uh, this person had endowed a new athletic field for one of the universities in the area. And we needed a new athletic feeling a little bit around the edges. Often I said, uh, I need him on the board. The head of the company said one, this isn’t going to just fit this question, but I’ll make sure he sits beside me every meeting, I’ll keep him under control. Said one even got two more years left, he’ll be here afterwards and we didn’t do it. Somebody else got the gift. But I’m pretty sure it was the right one because that they, there is a culture that you have to deal with. And that’s that if you have overtly disrupted people that can, in fact, that’s just supposed to people who have good clear ideas, well reasoned that are different than yours. That’s a whole different topic. But uh, loosely cannons learning around can can cause all kinds of difficulty.

[00:43:41.60] spk_1:
I think it sounds like you were wise to uh, to take the advice of the person and not bring that member honest, but that’s a very good point. You know, warren, you’re only gonna be here for two more years, they’ve got years after that and you know, and really, how well are you going to be able to constrain them? You know, if, if these, if the person becomes obstreperous in, in a, in a board meeting, are you gonna be willing to, you know, put them back in their place publicly in front of the rest of the board and maybe there’s staff in the room at the same time and that could have been ugly. So you were wise, I

[00:43:52.60] spk_0:
didn’t feel wise this time, but the way you describe it, you’re absolutely correct.

[00:44:20.59] spk_1:
Yeah, okay, we’ve said enough about how bad it can be. Um, so hopefully you have a good board chair ceo relationship, it’s, it’s supportive, its collegial like you said, you know, you, you couldn’t drive a thin nail between the two of you in public but you have, you have things out in private and, and, and there should be a lot of communication and I think a board chair and see, you know, they should be in touch. I don’t know what’s a week or so.

[00:44:22.25] spk_0:
It takes a month, right? It takes a lot of time. Uh, the ones that I was working on recently, it just turned out that uh I was taking 40, 30 to 40 hours a week of the chair. And that means you got to make sure you have the time uh to put into that

[00:45:14.59] spk_1:
too. Yeah, and the person that you’re asking has the time. Yes. All right, so I’ve been I’ve been looking forward to talking to you about planned giving. Yeah, because you have a chapter on plant giving and foundations, and I’ve been making a living a plan giving for A good number of years, 2400 years. Uh and your plan giving donor, it sounds like uh so and you’re you’re playing giving chapter, you spend most of your time, and it’s just, you know, it’s one chapter and you make the point that playing giving could be a series of books. And indeed, I have

[00:45:21.00] spk_0:
a I

[00:46:13.88] spk_1:
Have a 400 page treatise on planned giving, you know, on my shelf that I hardly ever have to refer to, but when I do it’s comforting to know it’s there. Um so, you know, your your chapter is an overview of you talk about iras and trust, different types of trusts and uh charitable gift annuities. Um um My focusing planned giving is now, so I I I I am a startup plan giving consultant. I I initiate the kickoff launched programs. Um So my focus is mainly on Will’s because I think that’s the place to start a plan giving program. Um but again you’re doing an overview, You’re not talking about starting a plan giving program. Your your chapter gives an overview of playing giving, but I’ve still been anxious to talk to you about it, especially, you know, because you’re playing giving donor to what what do you what do you see as the role of planned giving, how critical to you is

[00:49:23.97] spk_0:
This to me? It’s uh that it’s as you pass by a certain point in your life and I don’t know whether it’s 60 or 65 uh that the actuarial tables begin to sort of uh well differently. And that uh somebody uh is looking at once to make a meaningful gift and they may be worried about, you know, the cash flow and something like a channel remainder trust or channel annuity is that the donor life, the fact they’re able to give a big number And they in fact, no, they’re going to live for another 40 years. And so it’s a big deal that you and the other side, you know, the end is much closer than the dome. So it’s a very happy kind of situation. Uh And what it really does is that people who are going to worry about end of life expenses are able to use this set vehicles and there are all kinds of tax incentives. I mean the one I personally caught my attention was the I. R. A. I’ve spent 30 years of my life you know building that up at every step along the way for retirement income. And that somebody had developed wants to sit down and said that you do understand you know what the tax implication is when you die of the I. R. A. And by the time you look at he said this is actually free money because you’re not taking very much away from your kids and you’re giving a lot more you know to the charity. And so those discussions can be just enormously beneficial and it’s uh but you bring it up with sort of the right point in a person’s Your life at Harvard. We never heard about a charitable annuity at a reunion before the 45th reunion. And by the time becoming the 60th that’s all you’re hearing about these vehicles. So that that that that there’s a time and a place for it. And it also of course comes back to our earlier discussion of the of the uh the annual fund giver. The trustee who becomes a trustee emeritus contributes to a capital campaign. And then plan giving comes right on. And as you get into the habit of giving through the other things you become more receptive, You know, nor philanthropic about these later on in your life kinds of up to us. And that what you need there is you need people who are really specialists like yourself because there are 1000 ways you can put the thing together. And I picked just about six or seven or what are the most common ones to, to make them the point. But those are the ones which, uh, your hospitals and museums and college so forth. You tend, you tend to use.

[00:50:28.46] spk_1:
Yeah. And I see it as essential to the stewardship of donors. You know, you want that lifetime relationship. It’s, it’s stewardship over a long period. But in the, in that period there are, there’s cultivation and solicitation, you know, for the next gift. So as your stewarding over a lifetime, you’re cultivating and soliciting for different, different phases, you know, the annual, the, the major, the capital, the, and, and, uh, ultimately the planned gift. Um, so it’s, uh, so I’m interested in, you know, you as a, as, because I worked with a lot of plans giving donors. Um, I’ve worked with thousands through the years. Uh, but you know, I don’t get to have the conversation with them that I’m, you know, on the same level having with use. I mean, so I, I have to sort of suss things out a little bit. Uh, it sounds like for you, the tax advantages of, of the Ira, we’re appealing

[00:50:29.99] spk_0:
Well, but

[00:50:31.61] spk_1:
that tax advantage was moving for

[00:50:33.94] spk_0:
you when I looked at, I said, this is, this is a very inefficient way to distribute the IRA and my kids, I can,

[00:50:42.21] spk_1:
they’ll be taxed on.

[00:51:25.56] spk_0:
Exactly. And so therefore this is money that I can get much more leverage. And by giving out to the outside so that I’ve been really hammering at people that for the last uh, five or six years. Then you come back to the notions of, uh, where you want to make a really significant, you know, impact. And this is where charitable remainder trust uh, can be really helpful so that you want to sort of make a half million dollars million dollar gift. But you have to worry about keeping the food on the table through your declining years. And there, Oh, that uh, that you put the money inside for that trust. And it takes care of the income to your life or your life and your spouse’s life. But there’s a big number that goes to the, uh, the museum of the university of what? Not at the end. And then of course it becomes particularly interesting is still Harvard uh, does it very nicely, is that you can designate up to 49% of it to some other organization. And

[00:51:57.59] spk_1:
right, well, Harvard, Harvard is an outlier there because they have the Harvard Management

[00:52:00.88] spk_0:
corporation. But what that does

[00:52:11.85] spk_1:
just, that was just for your trust, most, most nonprofits can’t do that. And, you know, the trusteeship ends up being with the, with a Fidelity or Schwab or, you know, some, some financial institution.

[00:52:16.41] spk_0:
But what it does is it, uh, in that case it allows organizations that don’t have very sophisticated plan dealing. And you really worry about the investment advisors, they’re using uh you can sort of put that underneath the same, I’m broad and the fidelity to do the same thing.

[00:53:01.85] spk_1:
Your larger point that one remainder trust can help multiple charities. And yeah, I know you make the point in the book that Harvard Management Corporation allows that. So as long as I guess, I guess as long as 51% goes to Harvard 9% can go to other charities. Uh, But if it’s an outside manager and some some financial institution manager acting as trustee, then uh oh there is unlimited ways you can divide the, but then the lots and lots of charities from one single trust

[00:53:25.85] spk_0:
as somebody who makes a living designing these things. Of course, your greatest single friend of this is the U. S. Congress because the laws change. And just as soon as you have finally tuned strategy in one place, you’ll go off change and then you have to come back and you re think about it. So it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a continual ideally, once you getting along you can’t just do it right. And it’s done.

[00:53:54.05] spk_1:
Yeah. But this the significant tax code changes only come like every 15, 20 years or so. Yeah. So you’re you’ll go through a couple in a career. Uh, But again and again, you know, my work is mostly at the at the formation of planned giving level. I mean I’ve I’ve done $25 million dollar lead trusts and I’ve done multiple remainder trusts and hundreds of gift annuities, maybe thousands. I don’t know hundreds at least. Um, but my work is mostly at the formation stage, getting folks getting nonprofits set up with

[00:54:10.24] spk_0:
just how to do

[00:54:35.44] spk_1:
it. Let’s start asking with because let’s start asking for bequests simple gifts by will. Let’s start there. That’s the foundation. Uh, I believe of of any planned giving program is, is just a simple gifts by will. Um, and then in years later, you know, you may graduate to the more sophisticated gifts depending on the size of your organization. You might not, you might just, you might just be content with doing requests indefinitely and you’ll capture most of the plane gifts anyway because that they’re always the

[00:55:03.44] spk_0:
the most common comment is powerful. The will is, is the first place. And then of course, uh, way way back when that I can that I remember somebody, uh, one of, one of my ancestors uh, basically uh, was going to give a gift of, Of a, of a certain percentage of first stage and the other as you know, I don’t want to do it that way. You want to make sure that uh actually gets a specific money. And so instead of the percentage putting what you thought was a huge number, which was actually 1/10 of what we had it gone the other way. So you have to have all sorts of funny kind of twisted thinking that you have to sort of unravel that process.

[00:55:59.74] spk_1:
You, you flush that story out in the book. You tell that one in a little more detail in the book. So folks got to get the book. Um, warren, let’s, let’s leave folks with just, You know, you’ve got these 40 years of experience, multiple, multiple board memberships, board chairmanships. You’re a donor in your own right through times, decades and decades. Leave folks with some, some fundraising wisdom, please.

[00:58:02.02] spk_0:
I think that uh, philanthropy is fundamentally a very satisfying activity that basically you’re helping to move social causes along along that I next, of course, is the whole power of the nonprofit sector is that I have there there’s almost a spiritual aspect uh, built to it. I, I enjoyed my corporate boards. We make changes things that nature new parts or what, but there’s something different. There’s something different in the nonprofit and when you’re trying to sort of move society along in some ways that you think are, are important and uh, that what you have to learn is that all you have to educate people on the opportunities. Uh, that the book was originally with basically the nutritious e right after a lot of them are asked to be trying to be, the first thing they say is do you have to ask people for money because I’m not good at it. And the answer is yes. You are going to have to ask for it and we can train you how to ask for it. And it starts by, you’re basically making a major commitment because that gives you the passion and so forth to move the cause forward. But it’s uh, it’s when the four organizations I’m involved with now, he’s one of them are ones that I actually believe in the, in the mission in a deep internalized, you know, real kind of of way. And if I didn’t, I’d have, I’d have gotten involved in other things. Just mean, you can’t pick up new choices, a lot of ways that some of the smaller things I do, uh, they’re very interesting, uh, the kinds of ones that, uh, core values, but it’s, it’s an, it’s an opportunity, you know, to, to move the world forward. And that’s that’s that’s that, that that’s what why people give their time in the, in the treasure.

[00:58:10.32] spk_1:
Thank you so much. Warren fre Mcfarland, he’s a Professor emeritus at Harvard Business School. The book is effective fundraising, the trustees role and beyond. Published by Wiley Warren, thank you very much for sharing.

[00:58:22.23] spk_0:
It’s great with just terrific. Thank you so

[00:58:42.82] spk_1:
much. My pleasure if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Creative producer is

[00:58:43.78] spk_2:
Clan Meyerhoff

[00:58:44.70] spk_1:
shows. Social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy

[00:58:52.92] spk_2:
and this music is by scott stein. Yeah, thank you for that information, scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%

[00:59:12.72] spk_1:
Go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm.

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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit

[00:01:43.74] spk_0:
Ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of Kaif Asus if you twisted me around the idea that you missed this week’s show turn followers into donors. Adora drake has a strategy for converting your social media followers into donors. Let’s hear what it’s all about. tony state to planned giving in the pandemic era. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s my pleasure to welcome for the first time Adora drake to nonprofit radio She is a digital marketing strategist coach and consultant. She helps nonprofits feel inspired to take action, gain clarity in their marketing strategy and learn how to convert their followers into raving fans who want to be part of their mission with her unique coaching programs. Her company is at Adora drake marketing dot com and she’s at Adora drake on instagram. Adora drake. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:46.94] spk_1:
Hi, so happy to be here.

[00:01:52.94] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to have you Glad you are. Yeah, well where are you from? Where you zooming in from.

[00:02:00.54] spk_1:
So I am actually born and raised here in Dallas. We’re just unusual now because there’s so many different people here in texas but I am actually Born and raised native here in Dallas Okay right If you

[00:02:08.69] spk_0:
Live there more than four years, you’re a

[00:02:10.09] spk_3:
native. You’re

[00:02:14.23] spk_0:
a bona fide. Your bona fide.

[00:02:15.65] spk_1:
Yes. Like generation Texan here. Okay.

[00:02:19.93] spk_0:
I got a lot going on in texas now.

[00:02:22.18] spk_1:
Oh, tell me about it. Academic

[00:02:23.95] spk_0:
wise. Legal wise now, just a Russian abortion wise just

[00:02:28.49] spk_1:
today. Oh my goodness. Right. I’m like, wow, this is a big melting pot of stuff. Yeah,

[00:02:34.05] spk_0:
I don’t do politics on nonprofit radio We can do that off line, but good

[00:02:40.13] spk_1:
lot going. You’re

[00:02:53.74] spk_0:
in the news texas is in the news. It’s not to me, it’s not all good. I’ll leave it there. All right. Um, so you have a way of helping our listeners turn there social media followers into donors. Isn’t

[00:02:55.79] spk_1:
that right? That’s correct. That’s correct. I hope it’s correct for that. Yes,

[00:03:00.49] spk_0:
I hope it’s correct because otherwise we’re done.

[00:03:02.81] spk_3:
Okay,

[00:03:04.57] spk_1:
absolutely correct. tony

[00:03:05.71] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:03:07.45] spk_0:
I got one thing. Right, so far.

[00:03:08.65] spk_3:
Okay.

[00:03:13.74] spk_0:
You call this your scale method. Okay. What, why don’t you outline the elements of scale and then we have plenty of time to go into each, each step

[00:03:22.34] spk_1:
separate, awesome, awesome. So scale stands for social media content, audience lead an execution and like you said, we’ll go into each part of that scale method and how you can use that skill method.

[00:03:36.94] spk_0:
Okay. And you’ve obviously seen success with this with nonprofits that you work

[00:04:00.24] spk_1:
with. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I work with a small nonprofits all the way to midsize nonprofits and I’ve used a scale method on them. The process is very simple to follow. Um, as long as you really stick to that scale method, I know you’re gonna see some, some really good results from getting people from your social media and building that are all the way into getting people to donate, getting those funds.

[00:04:03.46] spk_0:
Okay. Well small and mid sized shops. Those are our listeners. Yeah.

[00:04:07.91] spk_1:
So

[00:04:11.74] spk_0:
Perfect. All right. So, um, social media, right For us. Okay. What do you have your principles here? What do you like to see done here?

[00:05:00.74] spk_1:
So one of the things that I know a lot of non profits and even for profits getting mixed up is they feel like they need to be everywhere. And that’s not always the case. So the first thing you want to make for sure is that you really hone down on that persona and your target of who do you want to have, um, come into your, your nonprofit or follow your nonprofit and who is that potential donor look like? Because that’s going to be really important when it comes to choosing the right social media platform. Each social media platform has their own features. Um, they attract different types of audiences. And so it’s important if you don’t know who that persona is, you might pick the wrong one and focus your efforts on the wrong one. So number one is to really hone in on your target, Once you figure that out and you choose a social media platform, that’s when the fun begins because now, you know, that’s where my audience is and this is where I can start putting out that content.

[00:05:09.64] spk_0:
Okay, okay, before we get to the content. So you want folks to look ahead to what the future donor is going to look like so that they’re on the right social networks?

[00:05:39.84] spk_1:
Yes. You have to know exactly who you want to attract. And for those of you who have already, you guys already have an organization going, you need to just look at the people who have already actively been involved with you, like who are the people who come to your events, who are the people who register uh, for your webinars or whatever your fundraising events are. Look at those people and see where would they particularly be on social media, That’s where you want to start attracting people who are already interested in your organization and picking more people, just like those people.

[00:05:48.64] spk_0:
Okay. Right, Right. Makes sense. All right. So, um, you know, be a little specific about some of the, some of the platforms, like, you know why my, why might you choose instagram over twitter for instance?

[00:07:24.74] spk_1:
Well, they’re completely different. If you were gonna go if you’re more visual, you really need to show your audience, you know, some of the projects that you guys are working on, you want to make sure that you have really good chris pictures and things like that, that’s really where you want to go to something like an instagram or Pinterest um those are really like I said really visual, these are, people are gonna be scrolling really quickly and often before they see your caption or before they see anything else they see this huge picture of something you’ve posted and so it’s really important that you get that right. Um if you are going to be showing some really visual type of content now, if you’re going to be sharing more like informational content, then you might want to lean towards something like twitter, twitter is, has its own legal system of people who are interested in information, they’re sharing information, they want to follow information they want to like, and they often click off of twitter and go to your website. Often more often they would on instagram and so if you are an organization there that’s trying to get an event for instance, out there to your audience, twitter might be a better, a better platform for you. So you just need to look at the different features and then get an idea of where can I find my target audience and how can I better create content for them? What your video is a big thing now, you know, video, especially on the other platforms are trying to adopt more videos, just like youtube, but youtube is the king of video um but also the other platforms you can do short video. So if you teach something or show something, you know, for two or three minutes posted on instagram are posted on twitter. That’s another way to show how to get in front of the right people on those platforms.

[00:07:47.74] spk_0:
You haven’t mentioned facebook now, there’s a lot of disenchantment with facebook as organic reach has plummeted. They just want your dollars to expand your reach. What’s your, what’s your thinking on facebook?

[00:08:23.54] spk_1:
So when, when people think of facebook, they do think of facebook advertising because it is probably have the best advertising if you are going to start. But that it is really good for organic as well. There are a lot of different groups. So if you know for sure that your audience is interested in, let’s just say feeding the needy or something like that, it might be really good for you to create a group specifically around that because you can later use that group, uh, to give out your information or get them on your email list. And so there are some ways that you can organically benefit from being on something like facebook.

[00:08:24.92] spk_0:
So you’re, you’re saying better maybe on facebook to create a group devoted to your cause versus versus using your nonprofit page to put content out. Is that what you’re saying.

[00:09:46.04] spk_1:
Yeah, and the reason why you would want to do this is because people don’t like to feel like they’re being sold to it. I don’t want to feel like, you know, you guys are just gonna want to follow me because I’m, you know, I’m gonna give you funds, you want to really build a relationship and build interest around your mission. And so if you are, we’ll just use the homeless shelter. For instance, if you are, your mission is to serve the hungry or serve the needy, let’s say you make a group about serving your community and serving the needy. You get all these different people coming in, they’re really interested in this topic there. They serve their community. They’re gonna be more likely to want to come off of that platform or want to donate or want to come to your events because they are already showing interest from being inside of this group. Now, the difference between a group in a page, your page is specifically for your particular organization. So if you want to show something that you guys are particularly doing that week or you want to share your employees are doing keeping them in the note, that’s one thing. But that group is going to really keep people engaged because they’re already interested in this topic and you’re giving out information and they’re giving information and now you have a relationship. So when you get on social media is about building relationships, that’s, that’s where that social peace comes in and so you want to make sure that when you’re on there, that you’re building a relationship that way, when you ask for funds down the line, they’ve been knowing you, they they’ve been following you all this time. They’ve been engaging with you. They know for sure that you guys what you guys do and how you guys help.

[00:10:06.44] spk_0:
And are you saying that reaches organic reach, non paid is easier to achieve through a group than it is through a nonprofit page?

[00:10:15.64] spk_1:
Yes, absolutely. That’s because the reaches its a lot better when it comes to facebook. Um, you know, the reaches a lot better.

[00:10:22.60] spk_0:
Yeah. In the group

[00:10:24.11] spk_1:
in the Exactly. Exactly. And it’s a lot easier to give people, you know, into your group. And so once you’ve got people into your group, it’s yours. It’s your group. You can start collecting emails, you can start sending out, you know, particular information and of course they can go and like your business page, but it’s not it’s not the same as actually engaging in coming in and sharing videos and things like that inside of a group. It’s a little bit more personal.

[00:10:47.04] spk_0:
Okay. All right. So that that’s advice I hadn’t heard before that you’re, you’re more likely to get better reach with a with a group than with a page.

[00:10:55.46] spk_1:
Okay.

[00:11:03.04] spk_0:
Okay. Um, All right. So then the content that that belongs in whatever it is, there’s facebook group or instagram or you know, whatever platform you’re choosing, what how do you select the right content.

[00:11:29.34] spk_1:
So your content should be based completely off of the interest, which is usually your, you start with the messaging of your organization. People come and they follow you because they believe in your mission. They believe in what you guys have to offer and then you want to create content around that. So don’t switch and do something. If you’re talking about homeless, don’t switch and talk about something about the earth or something like that, you want to make sure you’re Strictly focusing on your mission. Then you want to use that 8020 rule, it should be 80% information, 80% sharing about your events and things like that. Then only 20% asking for donations and money. So very little bit of actual fundraising and more giving and actually engaging with people.

[00:12:59.24] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and get that voice heard in all the right places. So many of the places that you’ve heard of, like the Wall Street Journal, the new york times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, fast Company and market watch. Many others you’ve heard me recite through the weeks to help you find your voice and you’ll get your voice heard. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O now back to turn followers into donors. I like to empower folks within the nonprofit to um, create content on their own. Yeah, It’s not all just from the fundraisers or the marketing, communications design people, but you know, folks who are actually doing the program work. Maybe there shooting short videos or you know, etcetera, folks on the ground doing the work. What, how do you feel about that? You know, empowering folks on the, on the ground floor, uh, to create their own content.

[00:13:41.24] spk_1:
I totally agree with that tony because that’s where the real content comes. Like when you can look on there, let’s just use instagram. I’m scrolling, I’m looking and I see a picture of people actually handing out bags of food or they’re handing out there at the hospitals and helping people. And I’m seeing people on the ground doing things. Then I know that that organization is serious, right? I know that they’re actually out there on the ground and they’re not just some huge corporate where I don’t know where my money is going. So I think that that is a good idea to always have like you said, people on the ground actually making their own content and they actually can actually get to know your audience to. So when the data comes up, you know, you can actually see what are people clicking on and what are they commenting on? What are they saying And what type of things are they, are they liking? You know, so these are all going to help you down the line as you continue to great continent to really see by looking at your analytics.

[00:13:59.94] spk_0:
Right, okay, excellent point. I wanted to ask about analytics. The analytics vary. You know? Uh some some sites will give you more, you know, a play of some platforms. I should say like a platform like linkedin. Uh you know it gives you very little you might you might not be on you might not be on linkedin for for you know volunteer and donor relationships. But that’s just one that I’m most familiar with because I spent a lot of time there. So I know that they are particularly uh

[00:14:23.69] spk_1:
yeah I think about the algorithm.

[00:14:35.14] spk_0:
I mean about the uh the analytics unless you know you start paying for the pro the upgraded um upgraded packages but you know so you’re kind of at the mercy what platforms or what what networks do you see? You know are more generous with uh with the analytics versus less.

[00:14:45.14] spk_1:
Well let’s just let’s just start with what analytics you should be looking for. So one of the things that you want to look for is you know, not only just the followers but like how many lives you are getting? How many impressions you’re making? So that means that your content is actually being seen

[00:14:59.13] spk_0:
the real you want really metric. Yeah, vanity metrics. Like how many I’m not talking about

[00:15:08.74] spk_1:
that shallow. Right. And of course followers. That’s good to have that because you’ll see you know how many people actually following you

[00:15:12.87] spk_0:
wanted, you wanted trending in the right place. But that’s not the ultimate measure exactly clicks and shares and uh shares and comments etcetera. Much more valuable.

[00:16:10.84] spk_1:
Way valuable because it’s going to help you, even when you decide to run ads down the line, it’s going to help you decide, you know, which type of people actually click who, who is sharing, who’s coming to my website. So these are all in a little that you can look and use and then you can see like especially on instagram and facebook, they’ve got their demographics down to a science. You can actually start building demographics around that. So like I said, it’s going to help you down the line as you try to run ads. You know, what age clicks, what’s the gender? What are they most interested in? What other similar pages do they follow? These type of analytics that are going to help you really target that that person over and over and over again. So yeah, looking at those analytics is going to be key. The best. Like I said, the platforms right now that are really good at analytics or are the big three really twitter facebook instagram if you are on on Youtube, they have awesome analytics as well. I’ll tell you how many views you have, How many people have like your videos, how many people share your videos. So these are things that you want to see and collect that data and see like, you know, how can I find more people that I want to attract? How can I find these donors online?

[00:16:27.44] spk_0:
But Youtube doesn’t give you the demographics though, does it? Of of people who have been watching viewing.

[00:16:32.52] spk_1:
It

[00:16:49.24] spk_0:
does give you give you a job and age location. Okay. You too does Okay. Good. Alright. Alright. Um All right. Um So you’re I don’t want to go through these two quick, but let’s say, all right, maybe we’ll end up coming back because you got a lackluster host, you know? So sometimes times I think of things later on,

[00:16:53.31] spk_1:
All

[00:16:54.42] spk_0:
right, we’ll cut we may end up coming back, all right, but we’ll get through. Okay, So a is your audience go ahead? What’s what’s your what’s your advice around audience?

[00:18:36.74] spk_1:
Audience is mainly finding those people who are going to want to continue to follow you, gonna follow you off of the platform. And so one of the main things like I said is you’re gonna want to look for that persona and then you want to try to mimic that persona over and over again. Now, people are looking at vanity measures like, okay, well, I have a lot of followers, but there are specific followers that never leave you. They’re gonna always continue to follow and be there. And so when you go in on these platforms and you’re looking for these people and you want to make sure that you have that one persona down, and you go to these different profiles on there and you follow them and you engage with their content. And so a lot of people actually miss that they post things and then they leave or they posted and they maybe answer one of their comments on theirs, but they never go back to someone else’s or engaged with their posts. And so that’s a huge part of social media. Another thing, another thing with audiences being found, right, So you’ve got this great profile, how do you get found? Almost all of the platforms use hashtags. And so these hashtags are really important there, the element that are gonna help you be discovered by new people. And so it’s very important that you at least research 15 main hashtag um that you guys can rotate out so that you guys will be found if someone searches for that particular hashtag. So, for instance, hashtag social change. For instance, if you use that in your post, when someone types in social change, your post will be in that large list of uh directory where people can actually click that photo and see where is it coming from, that will lead them back to your profile. So, these are all things that you want to make sure that you have in order to build your audience.

[00:18:38.48] spk_0:
Okay. Right. So you want to you want us following folks who are maybe influencers that are following us. Be generous. Be generous with sharing their content, not just engaging with them around your own content.

[00:19:06.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And even if you’re not sharing your your on their profile, you’re asking them questions, you know, what do they do or what, why do they like, x, y, z, you’re just having a really good conversation with them and most like, I don’t want to come to your profile and see what you guys have to offer, and that’s how you get a true follower that I want to engage with, you, not just somebody who will be going in two hours. And so it’s really important that you engage with these people and build relationships.

[00:19:18.14] spk_0:
Okay, so the relationship building and the use of the right hashtags,

[00:19:19.88] spk_1:
that’s how you get discovered related

[00:19:25.14] spk_0:
to your work, should be, should you be creating your own hashtags or better to leverage off hashtags that are already existing, but others have already you, I mean there’s maybe hundreds of thousands of people already using an established hashtag, so it’s better to go that way or better to create your own and try to build momentum there.

[00:19:56.34] spk_1:
You definitely those 50 hashtag that I’m talking about, you do want to do a little bit of both, but mainly you want to use the ones that are already already being used because people are actively using them, they can actively find you now, once you build a bigger audience, of course you can use your own hashtag then you can tell your audience, hey, my hashtag is hashtag fedora and they’ll know to use that hashtag then. But when you are just starting and you’re just getting your marketing up, you want to use hashtag that are already being searched and already being used that way people can come to your profile and that’s when we’re, those impressions come in that we were talking about earlier, you get more impressions?

[00:20:19.49] spk_0:
Yeah, okay, okay, better to start with the, with the established,

[00:20:23.74] spk_1:
definitely. Yeah. So that you can get found. Yeah.

[00:20:28.24] spk_0:
All right, your l you’re always lead. Right, yep,

[00:21:37.74] spk_1:
yep. So that part in between the audience and the lead is super important. So it is the information that you give your audience that’s going to lead them on into your email list. It’s important to have an email list which a lot of non trump is either have an email list and they don’t use it or they don’t have an email this at all. I just feel like it’s not important, but you have to be actively building an email list because these are your particular raving fans that are going to continue to follow you even off of the social media platform, even though we know social social media is not going to disappear. Um you just want to make sure that you have your own particular people that you can consistently talk to, that you can consistently share with and so that between the a and the ill you want to have uh an opportunity to give them information in exchange for their email. Now, this can be a video, this can be a live event registration. This can be um, a pdf just giving them some really cool information about what you guys are doing or why it’s important to care about your mission. Like something of value that they can give you that valuable email because that email is going to help you down the line. That way, if you don’t, if they don’t see your post that day, at least they can check their emails now because they have you have them on the list

[00:21:48.84] spk_0:
I’ve seen or is that I think put up too much of a, of a barrier when they’re asking for that email and I’ll ask, you know, for maybe first name, last name. I’ve seen phone number.

[00:21:59.67] spk_3:
You know, this

[00:22:00.87] spk_0:
is all information. That’s very nice to have because you can write the first name and last name and phone number. You can probably research the person. But I think I think the, I think you’re losing more people because people don’t expect, you know, I don’t have to give up don’t give up my phone number and my address.

[00:22:15.72] spk_1:
Yeah. And you shouldn’t have to, you should get your white paper

[00:22:19.62] spk_0:
on on your work, you know,

[00:22:21.04] spk_1:
so Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Asking for that type of information like your your email is very valuable to you anyway. Right. Because we don’t give our emails to everybody. We dont want spam, we don’t want people on our inbox. So when we decided to give our emails out, that’s already a big deal for us. And so it’s really important. Like you said to simplify that should just be a name and email. Nothing crazy and it should just be in exchange for whatever that value is really quickly. So we quickly get the information we need and then later on down the line if you need the name and address and all those other things, it’s because I registered for something, I registered for an event or I registered to come out and do something with you. But that’s later down the line and I know you

[00:22:59.94] spk_0:
like, like I’m happy to give email and first name.

[00:23:03.54] spk_1:
That’s perfect way

[00:23:14.94] spk_0:
this organization, you know, you can personalize my email you, my first name. You know, I might give up last name or I might just make up a last name but it gets beyond that when you get on

[00:23:16.96] spk_3:
that phone

[00:23:18.06] spk_0:
number, you

[00:23:29.64] spk_1:
know, I click away. It’s too much. It’s too much and you don’t even as a, you know, when you’re marketing, you don’t need that number. Most people don’t do calls like that anyway. I like I said ask for that down the line. If you know, you’re gonna need that. Um, you can ask for that during someone’s registration or something. But they’ve already expressed interest to you. They know you they’ve been following your content. They opened the emails, right? And so then, you know, okay, they’re comfortable with us. They can give us their phone number at that point.

[00:23:50.34] spk_0:
All right. Or if you want to do a text campaign, you can ask, you know, you want to opt in, you’ve been

[00:23:52.51] spk_1:
out of the option right on our email, do that the first one though, the first time you get them on there and don’t do that the first

[00:23:58.25] spk_0:
time it’s too much right.

[00:23:59.46] spk_1:
You would scare him off.

[00:24:01.66] spk_0:
They’ve been on the mailing list for a while and you know, we’re

[00:24:03.97] spk_1:
gonna that’s fine. That’s fine. You

[00:24:13.14] spk_0:
know what we’re gonna do a SmS campaign. So, you know, if you’d like to opt in, you know, here’s the place to give us your number or reply with or something. You know, exactly.

[00:24:18.56] spk_1:
You should always be simple as possible

[00:24:20.79] spk_0:
after you’ve already got some goodwill. I feel like

[00:24:55.74] spk_1:
Exactly. And since we’re talking about that tony we can talk about some of the metrics that you should look for in your email is especially like once you get them on their like, what do you do with them? And I know a lot of nonprofits get stuck there. So one of the things that you want to make for sure is that you’re consistent with your email. So don’t just take the email and they never hear from you ever again. Don’t make that mistake because oftentimes when we do that and let’s say event comes up three or four months down the line and we’re wondering why no one registered or nobody opened our emails. We have really low email rates. It’s because you’ve let them cold. Okay. So you want to be for sure that you consistently talking to your list and you’re consistently giving them information so you can still use the 80 20 rule. And I was telling you earlier,

[00:27:44.84] spk_0:
it’s time for a break, send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag sending blue is priced for you, sending blue price for you, price for nonprofits, it’s an easy to use marketing platform walking you through the steps of building a campaign to try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving in the pandemic era. That’s a webinar that I’ll be delivering graciously hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. It’s on Thursday September 30, 2:00 EST, naturally I’m gonna weave in my stand up comedy, keep this light and entertaining uh as well as informative, informative is important. We don’t miss the informative, but we’ll talk about it. But I will talk about what planned giving is, who your best prospects are, where you get started and how planned giving fits. In our pandemic era. You can go to J. M. T. Consulting dot com, click events and then click experts speaker series. They have a bunch of experts and me. But that’s how you make your reservation. JMT consulting dot com events and then expert speaker series. Or if you prefer, you could go to JMT consulting dot com slash events slash planned hyphen giving hyphen in hyphen the hyphen pandemic hyphen era hyphen with hyphen tony hyphen martignetti I I presume you could also just search JMT consulting tony-martignetti that might work also. But you choose your method, no judgments here is a judgment free zone. You choose how you want to make your reservation, it’s yours, it’s yours. I just hope you will. I hope you’ll be with me with me and jmT consulting thursday september 30th two o’clock eastern. That Is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for turn followers into donors with adora drake

[00:28:34.04] spk_1:
and some of the main ways to get that really high open rate. It starts with the subject line. So the subject line should go straight to the point. It should be really quick and grab the intention of your reader and then once they click on that uh that email, the content should be helpful. It should be informative and it should quickly let them know. You know why they should keep reading. So that’s a little bit copyrighting their, uh, when you’re thinking about that. But if you have a newsletter, it’s a great place to put, you know, what are you guys coming up with? Why? Why should we care to be on your list? You know, especially when someone is a brand new person on the list. I like to create something that caught a welcome series. So I just kind of welcome them in. You know, introduce them. Let them know what the mission is, what we like to see in the future and things like that and kind of really get them into the organization and get them excited for being there. And as well as exchanging for some value. How

[00:28:44.27] spk_0:
long is that welcome series?

[00:28:46.44] spk_1:
It varies. Um, I usually have a minimum of seven emails. Um, and it’s just going to walk them through the entire first week that they’re on the list. And then after that you, you can go to just like once a week or something like that, but you want to make sure that you’re consistent at least once a week minimum,

[00:29:02.54] spk_0:
but initially you’re doing one a day, seven days. Yeah. People don’t object to that.

[00:29:25.74] spk_1:
No. And one of the things that I get asked all the time what they unsubscribe. Fedora if they unsubscribe, but you have to think of it this way. If they unsubscribe, then they’re not supposed to be there. Um, they’re not one of the people that are going to eventually donate to you. They’re not gonna want to follow. You know, you don’t saying so you’re kind of just losing deadweight. Kind of hate to say it that way, but it’s kind of dead weight and so you want to make sure that your, your list is lean. Um, they’re actually wanting to be there. They’re actually gonna open those emails because those are the people that are gonna donate or volunteer your time later down the line.

[00:29:40.52] spk_0:
That’s also going to help you with your email service provider.

[00:29:43.94] spk_1:
Yeah. Safety cost using uh,

[00:29:47.55] spk_0:
if you’re using mail chimp or constant contact or something. I mean if you have a huge list, but it’s un engaged. That that hurts, that hurts you. And they

[00:29:55.92] spk_1:
might, it does or

[00:29:58.28] spk_0:
your your email service provider or the recipients might end up might put you in spam even though the person asked for your email, but you have a big fat bloated un engaged list versus having to say you’re saying having a lien list it is engaged. That’s more likely to end up in an inbox than a junk box.

[00:30:16.22] spk_1:
Exactly. And that’s exactly what the goal is, especially when you’re creating an email list is to make sure that these people actually want to be there because these are your fans, you’re gonna go to later down the line when you do ask for donations. They already know you and they’re warm already. So these are warm leads

[00:30:30.24] spk_0:
and listeners, we’ve had guests on this. So you know, if you want to just search, go to tony-martignetti dot com and search email delivery ability, I’ve had shows on going into depth what a door and I’m talking about right now about the algorithms that companies you pay are using against. You have a big fat bloated and engaged list.

[00:30:52.99] spk_1:
So true. It does

[00:30:56.23] spk_0:
deliver ability. So you can hear shows specifically on that topic and how to avoid it. Um, we’re just touching on it now, but it is important your own companies that you’re paying could be hurting you.

[00:31:14.94] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ve also created a pdf just for you guys. If you guys want to learn the top five emails that I use on my email list of my clients list, you guys can go ahead and download that to uh, that’s gonna be in my website. Adora drake marketing dash non profit radio So you guys can go get

[00:31:24.97] spk_0:
that. All right. So, uh if this, if this podcast doesn’t return,

[00:31:30.72] spk_3:
you

[00:31:32.01] spk_0:
got some land, she’s got a landing page for us

[00:31:34.33] spk_1:
uh podcast. You guys are

[00:31:36.85] spk_0:
going to hear from the door drake again. This is gonna be the last time.

[00:31:39.34] spk_1:
Oh no,

[00:31:40.42] spk_3:
not Okay.

[00:31:41.73] spk_1:
No, I mean I hope not.

[00:31:42.99] spk_0:
But you set upon landing page you got metrics against us.

[00:31:45.70] spk_1:
Matrix. Matrix. Yes, that’s right.

[00:31:48.46] spk_0:
What did you say metrics what

[00:31:50.07] spk_1:
always have metrics. That’s right.

[00:31:51.73] spk_0:
Okay. Like you like the metrics maven. Okay.

[00:31:54.72] spk_1:
I like that. You know, I

[00:31:57.96] spk_0:
love alliteration. You can use Metro. Alright, so Adora drake marketing dot com. Hyphen dash dash dash hyphen non profit radio all one word. non profit

[00:32:10.67] spk_1:
All one Word. Yes. No spaces.

[00:32:12.74] spk_0:
Okay. And that’s where we’ll get your top five email. What subjects?

[00:32:26.74] spk_1:
It’s going to be a top five types of emails. So I’m going to tell you the types of emails that some of them was that series that we were talking about. I’ll tell you the types of emails that you can send out to your list. Keep them engaged but really to keep them engaged and wanting to donate at some point.

[00:32:30.79] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. And I just want to make something very, very clear. So when you’re welcoming someone to the list, they’ve they’ve taken your content, whatever it is, video or etcetera, whatever white paper etcetera. Uh, they’re new to your list. So you you send an email each day for the next week.

[00:32:49.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Now this is this is not hard as you guys think. It’s not me going on there every day typing up an email and this is something that you can set up an auto response. You can schedule this out. Right.

[00:33:01.43] spk_0:
I’m just making sure that you don’t find that? That’s too much in the beginning.

[00:33:33.04] spk_1:
No. And I don’t want you guys to be scared in thinking that even if you do something one a day that is too scary. I mean if anything it’s like having a conversation with a friend every day or talking to your mom every day. Right. She wouldn’t get tired of you. So why would someone who’s who’s following you and want to be a part of your mission? They wouldn’t get tired of you either. They just want to know more and more to And so the more you show up, it’s actually the opposite, the more you have people wanting to be there. So people who drop off, they were going to drop off at some point anyway because they weren’t really your target. And so I don’t want you guys worried about what they keep unsubscribing everyday. Well, that means you need to continue to keep growing your list with real people.

[00:33:48.94] spk_0:
Right. Right. Keeping that that lean but engaged list. Okay, Okay. And then your advice is at least once a week after that first week, minimum

[00:33:49.81] spk_1:
minimum, at least minimum. Yes. At

[00:33:52.68] spk_0:
least you said minimum. Yeah,

[00:33:53.90] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah,

[00:33:56.67] spk_3:
I

[00:33:57.79] spk_1:
don’t know what I’m talking about. You got

[00:33:59.46] spk_3:
it at

[00:34:00.29] spk_0:
least minimum

[00:34:01.36] spk_3:
minimum

[00:34:02.86] spk_1:
minimum. Alright. You have it out. You gotta go in a

[00:34:06.95] spk_0:
minimum minimum of once a week after. Right, okay. Yeah. Because when you’re event comes up and nobody nobody RSVPs, it’s because you haven’t been keeping in touch the people forgot about, you know,

[00:34:19.77] spk_1:
seriously? We have our lives. Right. Right. Right. And you disembark as long as like who is this? And why did I even get on the list, you know, so don’t be gone too long. Make sure you stay in front of them, let them know what’s going on. And when you show up and they show you show up in their inbox, they’re going to know exactly who you are. You want to open it. So stay consistent

[00:34:40.34] spk_0:
and then you build that relationship up. Maybe you get their U. S. Mail address. Maybe you can you do a print annual report. Maybe you can send that to that. You wanted to send them a little swag. But take your time build a relationship over

[00:34:54.20] spk_1:
the relationship. You’re right, Tony. Alright. That’s the main key. Is that building a relationship piece,

[00:35:00.24] spk_0:
Right? Because we’re trying to turn them into donors for God’s sake.

[00:35:02.79] spk_1:
Yeah. We’re asking for money here.

[00:35:05.67] spk_3:
That’s the goal. So

[00:35:06.81] spk_0:
our volunteers could be, you know, it could be maybe committed

[00:35:09.46] spk_1:
the other time, which is really valuable. Right? Valuable. Also. Absolutely.

[00:35:12.91] spk_3:
All

[00:35:14.13] spk_0:
right. Go ahead with your E. For execution, please.

[00:35:47.44] spk_1:
So execution is the main part is when we’re asking for money. Okay, So we’re ready to get them from the list and we’re asking them to give us a certain amount of money um for our calls. And so all of these other elements that S C. A. And L. They all lead up to the execution and so how do you do this? You’re gonna want to make for sure again that you’re consistent with that email list and when you ask for the sale or you ask for the donation, they already have a relationship with you and you’re really clear on where can they go and donate? Um What’s the timeline? Do they need to get on a call with you and talk about this more? You’re really defining out, you know how can they go about giving their money? Um Do they need to you know have particular people there or whatever the at the C. T. A. Is you want to make sure that you’re really clear on this and that’s that execution execution piece.

[00:36:15.43] spk_0:
And how long would you say from someone first joining the list to to asking them to make their first gift? What what what time period should that be?

[00:37:26.33] spk_1:
Um this is gonna vary by by organization but if you’re looking at the analytics and you’re seeing that people are consistently opening things that consistently clicking on your newsletter and they’re coming to your website. That’s probably a clear sign that they’re really interested. Okay so if they’re more interested in you’re seeing a 40% open rate uh They’re clicking is about a 20% click rate then it might be you can probably asked earlier but if you’re seeing that they need a little bit more time and not quite opening up the emails um then you’re not quite getting a click like you want, you might want to space that add a little bit more. So I always advise minimum uh to keep giving 80% and only asked 20%. So if you’re giving for four weeks straight, just straight information maybe on the fifth week, you can ask, hey, would you like to donate to our calls here and this and that. So it’s just about giving and balancing out that making for sure that they’re comfortable with what you do. They kind of see where the money would go. And then once you’re ready down the line, you say, hey, we’re needed to raise money for this or your money would go towards this. Cause how would you like to donate? And this is the perfect time to get started before the holidays because this is the time that you can create all the content, right? You can get them really comfortable with you and let them know what your messages and messaging is. And then you just ask for a sales. So you have plenty of time between this time in december to start getting that going.

[00:37:38.33] spk_0:
Yeah, because we are right. We’re coming up on the fourth quarter of the very important fourth quarter. All right. So, so you’re looking for you, you think 40% open rate and 20% click rate. Those are those are good numbers.

[00:38:53.02] spk_1:
Yes. And so I was talking to someone earlier. She was like, well I don’t have a 40% open rate and that’s fine. The averages around 30-35% open rate. That 40 is just a really good engaged audience. So they’re actually opening it. And it’s probably because you have a really good subject line. Right? And so I like to say that if you can get around 40, that means you have a really engaged audience, they’re not cold. Um, and they’re warm. And so Anything below that between 30, 30 and 35, that’s average, but below 30 is kind of bad. So you might want to either clean up your list or you might need to, um, you know, change your subject and kind of see, so that’s that testing piece. And a lot of people, you know, don’t know that about market, but marketing is a huge area where you have to test and kind of see what works for you, what works for your organization. And so you want to test and see what kind of subject lines do my audience open? Are they opening them at all or where did they come from? What’s the information that I gave them exchange for the email? And am I consistently making content around that or have I changed up something that makes them not want to open the email? So these are all things that you want to look at when you’re building an email list because like we said earlier, you don’t want to have a big list of people who aren’t really engaged already. You have a list of like 100 people, but they’re really engaged. They’re gonna, they’re gonna, you know, give you those funds at the end of the day,

[00:39:05.42] spk_0:
when you say, clean up the list, you’re talking about dropping people off who are chronically un engaged, you know, they’re not not opening the not clicking.

[00:39:45.32] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. It’s not gonna do you any good to have. It’s just literally vanity metrics at that point, before I clean up the list, I always just do you know a really quick check and say, hey, are you there? Or hey, would you like to continue to learn about X. Y. Z. If you get replies on those emails, you can keep those people on the list. The other people have not opened it or have not click anything. Those are used a clear sign that they’re not really, uh you know, people that you should probably keep on your list. And so before you clean them up, you can always just send out those quick little to emails that I just mentioned and kind of see, uh, you know, are you guys still wanted to be here? Or you can just drop those people who are not opening them,

[00:40:03.81] spk_0:
let’s make something clear. Just so there’s no listener that’s that’s got a question in their mind, uh the open rate that’s when someone opens, that’s opening your opening your email. Right? The open. That’s just that’s going from, you know, on your phone. That’s going from the little some little summary to tapping it to opening it up. And

[00:40:12.67] spk_1:
yeah, any time you open up email, that’s your open rate, your full

[00:40:15.45] spk_0:
message. Right? And then the click rate is just somebody clicks on anything in anything in the message.

[00:40:20.41] spk_1:
Usually you’re yeah, usually your newsletter, whatever link you have in there. So let’s say you have a link that leads back to your newsletter on your website or at least back to your blog or whatever is you have in there. It’s gonna catch that click and like you said, so that’s the click inside of the email,

[00:40:34.71] spk_0:
your call, your call to action

[00:40:36.40] spk_1:
called the action. Exactly.

[00:40:37.50] spk_0:
Someone. Okay. I just wanna make sure everybody understands the open right click.

[00:40:40.44] spk_1:
Ok. So those are the main two that you guys want to look at when you guys are running email marketing campaigns and those are the main things we look at. Two is how high those rates are because that tells me if my content is working or not.

[00:40:53.81] spk_0:
All right. So that’s the scale method. Um as I, as I thought might happen, I did think of a few things now require us to go

[00:41:02.81] spk_1:
back. That’s

[00:41:13.21] spk_0:
the lackluster host, like I said, that you’re stuck with going back to the, to the platforms, the social media. Yeah. Um let’s talk about ones that are no longer emerging, but they’re newer slack. WhatsApp Tick tock is their value there for nonprofits? Or does it does depend on who your, what your persona looks like as to whether you’re on one of the newer platforms.

[00:42:07.70] spk_1:
Yeah. So if, if you’re going to join one of those, you really do need to make sure that your audience is over there. So if you are targeting, you know, teenagers or younger people, then you might can look into something like a Tiktok, right? But if you’re targeting, you know, wealthier donors who are over 60, they probably won’t be over there as much. Not that they won’t be over there is that they won’t be over their majority. And so you want to look at a platform where they’ll be like facebook or linkedin. Right. And so it’s gonna, like you said, go back down to that persona. But you know, when you’re thinking about which platform, if you want to be on and what you want to target? Look at, you know, where would these people be? What is that demographics that we talked about and that’s going to help you decide which one is going to, you know, work best if that platform doesn’t work, you’ve just been using it for like two or three months and you’re not really seeing much change. Maybe you should try another platform. So it’s again, that testing and making for sure that you understand? Where is my audience before you give up.

[00:42:20.10] spk_0:
Are you seeing nonprofits on Tiktok? Do you have?

[00:42:23.18] spk_1:
Honestly, I have not, I haven’t, I have not. You know what? I have seen a few on. What’s the other new social media platform? It’s like an audio only kind of platform. I can’t think of it right now.

[00:42:36.17] spk_0:
Oh, I think I’ve heard of this to uh, yeah. All right.

[00:42:39.41] spk_1:
I don’t know. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. It’s just audio only. I’ve heard some nonprofit starting to do those because it’s kind of like podcasts and so that might be a really cool option for people if if you have a really good viewership, you want to turn them into listeners and that might be an option for you.

[00:42:56.20] spk_0:
Okay. Okay, slack. Is that is their value in uh, nonprofits on slack.

[00:44:04.89] spk_1:
Yeah. So slack is usually used to communicate which you can communicate with, you know, your volunteer. So that’s more like an internal type of software. You can kind of get in there and engage with people in your organization. So we can talk about that a little bit too. Like how do you kind of keep people engaged in inside of the organization? So something like a slag or Asana that’s going to help you really track your projects. Right. So these are, these are gonna be helpful for making for sure that those projects move along, uh, through the pipeline. So, uh, let’s say you guys are having an event and you want to start marketing it four months ahead of time, That slack kind of platform will enable you to put each team member in there that you guys can communicate, upload um you know, marking materials, schedule out those emails and things like that inside of that slack platform, so that’s what that’s used for and other ones are like a sauna or teamwork and things like that. Those are all kind of work on that capacity. Also when it comes to social media, which I talked, we had mentioned earlier like you don’t want to be glued to your social media right? So there are there are Softwares that can actually help you schedule out your content so you won’t actually have to be there every day at five o’clock scheduling on your content. So these platforms are things like you know, sprout social hubspot um plan only that you can actually upload your content and ahead of time and then schedule things out so that you don’t actually have to be there. All you have to do is come in still for about 30 minutes to come in and engage and making sure you answer questions and comments and things like that. So there is some pieces of automation that you can use

[00:44:35.89] spk_0:
Dora, what was the third one you said hubspot? I know I know sprout social and what was

[00:44:40.05] spk_1:
the social and what is called plan early and that one, I used a lot for instagram, for scheduling on instagram. Post

[00:44:46.39] spk_0:
plan, could you spell it for us?

[00:44:48.29] spk_1:
It’s called plan early. So it’s P L A N O L Y.

[00:45:00.69] spk_0:
Okay, cool. Thank you. All right. No listeners to be able to find it. Okay. Um you know, you got a little Dallas texas accent, so I wanna make

[00:45:02.80] spk_3:
sure,

[00:45:04.29] spk_1:
I don’t know I had next sent to someone said it the other, we got like, really

[00:45:07.51] spk_3:
got

[00:45:37.49] spk_0:
a little one man, I’m from new york. Uh how obvious is that? Just a little So, you know, I just wanna get folks to be able to hear through it. You talk about the subject line. What about, you know, uh lots of folks um encourage listeners to use that, that subheading uh right below the subject, like that summary that you see on your phone, you know, you get like 100 50 characters below the subject line. That can be used creatively also to encourage people to open. Right?

[00:46:11.08] spk_1:
Yeah, definitely. Um it can definitely be used to, but but mainly it is going to be the subject line record. That’s that’s what’s gonna make me click it and then the actual content inside of your email is gonna be the most important, but if you want to add, let’s say I’m having a contest or something like that and I want to make sure that people understand, you know, what, what they can expect when they open the email, then I might add a little bit of context inside of that secondary subject line that you’re talking about. Um, it’s not the most important, but it is, you know, something that you can add a little bit of extra information if you don’t have enough information in your subject line. Okay.

[00:46:20.18] spk_0:
Uh, why don’t you uh, story it’s story time. Did you tell the story of uh, you know, some non profit uh, that you know, maybe not, you know, step by step to the scale method, but nowhere you saw, you saw things where things are moving, you start to get some traction, saw some success converted to focus the donors and tell us a good story.

[00:47:47.28] spk_1:
Yeah, so one of the non profits I just recently worked with, they were uh mid sized non profit in boston and what they focused on is helping disadvantaged minorities find jobs. Um, they also were involved with feeding uh, their local community and one of their major uh, academies that they were going to try to open up was just to help younger teenage students to come in and learn how to volunteer and learn how to get back to their community and be really good students. And so they were trying to push that act that academy and they didn’t know how to do that. So most of their marketing was still done the old school way. So they were getting out there, you know, going to these different uh, local churches, going to schools and things like that on foot and not necessarily, uh, utilizing social media, they have been around for about 15 years. So they did have an email list, but they weren’t really using it outside of, you know, just letting people know like tomorrow we’re gonna be doing an advantage at X, Y. C. And so when they brought me in, they were like, hey, how do we uh, you know, really build some interest online and so that we don’t necessarily have to rely on doing these old school methods all the time. And so one of the first things I took a look at was that s of the scale method, which is their social media, which is almost non existent. Um, they have maybe one account, but it wasn’t used for like four years. So

[00:48:00.23] spk_3:
that

[00:49:52.47] spk_1:
is non existent. Yeah, I was like, okay, what’s this? So we really have to start almost from scratch their built their, all of their platforms, uh, to the point where people were actually following, we could actually, you know, see the analytics of them leaving the platforms and clicking their websites. We did get people onto their email list and then I taught them, you know, kind of what I was discussing here. Like how do you nurture those people now that they’re on your email is like, don’t just leave them hanging or don’t just let them know the day before the event, Like, hey, it’s tomorrow because you probably won’t get as much engagement. So I taught them how to use content inside of their email lists and how to, you know, get people interested before these type of events happen or before you, they want that call to action to happen so that they can really start seeing well, okay with this organization is really cool because they really do help their community. Um, or one of the, it was funny because during my time with them, one of the main uh, directors, he had an emergency outside when they were feeding the hungry that was actually featured on the news. And so I was like, hey, this is perfect for social media just to show that you guys, you know, not only you guys out there on foot, but you guys, you know, care about your community even when an emergency happens, you’re going to step in and so that just makes it just makes you look good as a brand and you can share all these types of things with your audience because they care to know it right. And so I walked them through the whole process, like you said, trained their team how to do this. So if you have an organization and you are, you know, you’re wanting to be a little bit more hands off. I do have the opportunity for you to, you know, come into my programs and do that. But they use that program where I kind of came in, set up all of their automation. So they don’t have to be glued to things and they can really focus on the mission of the organization. And so when I left them, all of their team was trained. They have the automation is in place and so they’re on their way now to, to bring in a lot of money less than I checked with With them up there in Boston. They had brought in about 50,000 into that new academy that I was talking about. Um, and that’s gonna be really focused, like I said on on these students this year, on how to make them really good students and make them want to study, make them want to volunteer and things like that.

[00:50:07.36] spk_0:
Okay. And that $50,000 was largely from the relationships that got built

[00:50:55.36] spk_1:
relationships in ways that we just talked about. Exactly exactly, strictly relationships really because you know, once you get them on the list, you got, you know, warmed up. A lot of people are asking questions as I was running a lot of their socials at the time. So I got to see people ask questions about, you know, how can I get involved or what do you guys do or how long have you guys been around? And that is a really good way to, you know, meet prospective donors, you know, get him on the list and share that information. Uh, one of the directors there, she also had a radio show. So she would do things every morning. Uh, let’s say on on Wednesday at nine o’clock, she would, you know, give her information. And I said, when I first came in I was like, okay, you’re doing this radio show. But what if I’m not listening at nine o’clock Eastern time because I’m here in central time. Alright, Am I never gonna see the show? And she was like, well, I don’t, I don’t know what to do. So I taught her how to repurpose that content. So where she can share it on her social media, she can also share that on her email list and more people get to see, you know what they’re doing up there.

[00:51:13.66] spk_0:
Okay, that’s a great story.

[00:51:14.93] spk_3:
All

[00:51:16.16] spk_1:
right, we’re

[00:51:19.14] spk_0:
gonna leave it

[00:51:19.49] spk_3:
there Drake

[00:51:38.26] spk_0:
actually, Dordrecht, digital marketing strategist, coach and consultant, you’ll find her at Adora drake marketing dot com if you want to hit the listener landing pages she set up for us. It’s a test now. So Dora drake marketing dot com. Hyphen non profit radio No spaces,

[00:51:40.96] spk_1:
no spaces. Thank

[00:51:43.12] spk_0:
you very much. Terrific ideas. Thank you.

[00:51:45.46] spk_1:
Thank you guys. It was a pleasure being here.

[00:51:47.86] spk_0:
Our pleasure, my pleasure, my pleasure, well, our pleasure to listen, my pleasure to talk with

[00:51:52.61] spk_3:
you

[00:52:25.05] spk_0:
next week, effective fundraising that’s Warren Mcfarland’s new book and he’ll be with me if you missed any part of this week’s show? I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue,

[00:53:01.55] spk_2:
our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Solomon is our web guy and this music is by scott steiner. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great. Mm hmm. Mhm. What

Nonprofit Radio for August 30, 2021: Decolonizing Wealth

My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:02:21.14] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with hyper guard Dallas the asia Footnote one If you tickled me with the idea that you missed this week’s show de colonizing wealth. Edgar Villanueva’s book de colonizing wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy, This originally aired 30 November 2018 Antonis take two gratitude all day. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform, empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Let us begin here is de colonizing wealth. It’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio Edgar Villanueva, He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andrews Family Fund, Working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at Grand Valley State University and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s held leadership roles at Kate b Reynolds charitable trust in north Carolina and marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle, Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and at Villanueva Edgar, you’re welcome to studio.

[00:02:22.29] spk_0:
Thank you. tony Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:23.87] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october

[00:02:28.33] spk_0:
october 16th.

[00:02:29.31] spk_1:
Yes. Alright. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times?

[00:02:33.16] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:02:34.14] spk_1:
congratulations on that. They perhaps perhaps perhaps you for nonprofit radio

[00:02:37.66] spk_0:
Right, right. I’m ready. All

[00:03:25.24] spk_1:
your, all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So it’s all culminated here. Um, I promised listeners, footnote one, footnote 12. hyper guard Alice these asia. Uh, of course, anybody listens to the show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease. Every single show. Uh but in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper guard anesthesia. So this is the first time Over 400 shows that the, that the guest unknowingly has uh, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do that every single show. Um you didn’t know that you’re not listening to nonprofit radio It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re, you’re a bit of a troublemaker

[00:03:30.54] spk_0:
a little bit.

[00:03:33.34] spk_1:
Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. Uh,

[00:03:33.76] spk_0:
someone told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way, but

[00:04:04.94] spk_1:
that’s not also bad. Get a little closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate with it almost. Um, I used to call myself the charlie Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. Uh, can’t use that any longer. Um, because you talk about uh, colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like these are bad things.

[00:04:06.84] spk_0:
Yes, they are bad thing. What

[00:04:09.48] spk_1:
uh, what is the, what’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:46.74] spk_0:
so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the non profit sector, um, you know, have this firewall that we are completely disconnected from, um, Wall Street or from capitalism or, or some of those uh, processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from uh, corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, um, sometimes, uh, not in the best ways, not in the

[00:04:50.24] spk_1:
backs of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:10.14] spk_0:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country is steeped in trauma. Right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth, but you know, when we look back and we see in general how wealth was accumulated. Um, you know, especially I’m from the south north Carolina, we’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was the legacy of slavery and stolen lands that, that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:23.04] spk_1:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans.

[00:06:09.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, we as a, people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities. Um, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in north Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact, but colonization and the, the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparents generation kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still, we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are a resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we are trying to solve today as a society, have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:22.24] spk_1:
You say that the natives are

[00:06:23.73] spk_0:
the original philanthropists.

[00:06:44.94] spk_1:
Um, now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. Uh, Robinson county north Carolina, which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west I think of, of Robinson County lumber. So the lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the lum bees and Lumberton. The town

[00:06:49.90] spk_0:
named for lambis. Right? So love bees were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first and so certainly the river came from

[00:07:00.26] spk_1:
the name of the river

[00:07:10.04] spk_0:
came from rivers been there much longer than, Yeah. So we are, you know, a hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north Carolina. Um, that I came together to form the lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:40.94] spk_1:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to uh, native americans as the, as the original philanthropists. But uh, that, that struck me a lot. I think you, you say, you say that the end of the, at the end of the book is where I, where I caught it. Um, uh, we just have like a minute and a half or so before the break. So just we’re introducing this, we’ve got plenty of time together, wealth. You say divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:08:01.84] spk_0:
So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral wealth in itself, I say is, is neutral, but it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed. Um, the acts that can result as a, as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what that’s what has caused the harm in itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has caused trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven,

[00:09:10.04] spk_1:
6, 6 steps to that second half of your book. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and get that voice heard in the right places. Places like the Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, fast Company Market Watch and lots of others you’ve heard me name. They’ll help you find your voice and get it out. Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to de colonizing wealth. *** tony-martignetti Uh, that is your indian name. Did I by any chance say that correctly.

[00:09:13.13] spk_0:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shabby with my Ojibwe these days. You

[00:09:17.72] spk_1:
don’t know your, you know,

[00:09:18.75] spk_0:
you know that sounds, but

[00:09:25.84] spk_1:
that is your indian name. Uh, leading bird, uh, tell the story of how you got that name. Well, welcome back to don’t welcome back to the exploitation and control, don’t we? Yeah, this is a good story, how you got that name.

[00:11:55.54] spk_0:
So my tribe, the lumbee tribe in north Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are, whatever your mom calls you, that’s your name. Right. Right. So, um, but when I, when I was working in north Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there is a medicine man and some, when the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to, to talk or have a session and growing up in north Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh north Carolina. And so, but I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and to um see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me if you’re, if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um, and so I met with this guy in the Marriott hotel in denver colorado or this, this native health conference. So it was all uh, tell the story in the book is quite um hilarious and in many ways, but at the end of our session where I was feeling um excited about, you know, the conversation we had but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I’ve, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. Um he did offer me a native name, Naghani pinochet, which means leading bird. Um, so I was very honored and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right am I a little tweety bird or am I mighty eagle birds are best? So um he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V. Formation. Um, and as I when I left I studied these birds and and they’re the leading bird. I’m the leading birds leading bird. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V. Formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understand its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V. Formation, it’s really like an amazing natural national phenomenon, how how they communicate and fly together. Uh the other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird forward. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And um when I, when I learned these characteristics, um I just felt really, um I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life and I think it’s the type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:32.04] spk_1:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered, uh, they’re, they’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, and you know, be injured. But that’s how they, and I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close but not so close. They’re gonna be injured, right?

[00:13:00.84] spk_0:
It’s very, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, gPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds, um, is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more. But I think when they’re when someone is down or you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen. Uh, they, there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and are interrelated, you know, being interrelated and

[00:13:21.14] spk_1:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is a, this is an indigenous belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of. The birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are, each of one of us related to the, to all the other.

[00:14:34.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So there there is a native belief um all my relations that means um you’re, all of our suffering is mutual, all of our thriving is mutual and uh you know we are, we are interdependent and so it’s a very different mindset or worldview from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset. Um we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives um and we are related to the land and to the animals around us, but all of the things, all of the decisions and um that we are making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor and so what our responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our um our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and and to think about how to apply them in my work

[00:14:54.74] spk_1:
and you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility for as you said, were thriving and suffering together. Um what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:14:55.96] spk_0:
Yeah, so you know, I think are we all responsible?

[00:14:58.94] spk_1:
We’re all

[00:15:11.24] spk_0:
responsible because we’re all affected. Um, I think some folks, when we, you know, we learn about colonization in schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We um, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes like the natural path of progress. Absolutely

[00:15:17.37] spk_1:
way it’s learned,

[00:16:11.34] spk_0:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher columbus for example. And so but the realities are that colonization um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And uh, that type of history that we have in this country is something that we um, as as the people have not come to terms with, we actually we don’t tell the truth, we don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. Um, and so the dynamics of colonization which are uh, to divide to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. Um, you know, I I refer to them as the colonizing virus, because they they are still in our bodies as as a nation. They show up in our policies, our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions in the nonprofit sector, and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power.

[00:16:20.24] spk_1:
Uh, these

[00:17:25.54] spk_0:
naturally to your point about us, them organizations go ahead. So, you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, um, you know, the dynamics of colonization because when you look at um uh where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. When you look at ask the question of why this money was held back from public coffers, um that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting the safety net and vulnerable communities. Um And when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend it, you see a very um white dominant kind of mindset happening because for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit um foundation set on $800 billion of assets. That’s a lot of money that has been uh you know, sheltered from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, um things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities, but that money has been put there with little to no accountability. Um Private foundations are only required by the I. R. S. To uh pay out 5% of their assets. And so then, you know, you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public good. Only a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community. Let’s assume

[00:18:11.04] spk_1:
it’s uh I know there are a lot of Foundations that use that five minimum as their maximum. So that’s so 5% of that would be $40 billion. Uh So the counter is, but there’s $40 billion coming Each year. Could be more, but let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And you know, we’re trying to preserve this uh this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if, you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were trying to, you know, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say,

[00:19:26.24] spk_0:
right, right. And you know, I think I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5%, when Congress had acted that 5% role, Um it actually began at 6%, I believe in 1974. And then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having A tax break. And so that that uh IRS minimum payout of 5%. That rule was put in place to force um foundations to actually begin making grants. And so, you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with a 95%, that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good in communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too, generate more money for future grantmaking And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and extract extractive industries, um, that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point

[00:20:20.74] spk_1:
often uh, that often right, Those investments are in our industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through its, through its mission. And, and in fact funding um, the uh, something else that was going to ask about the, the way the money is. Um, All right, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s there’s a lot that organizations can gain by hiring people of color indigenous people. What uh, and and very few. You’re, you’re a rare exception. Um, working in, in found doing foundation work. Uh, what’s the, make explicit those uh, those advantages?

[00:20:49.64] spk_0:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely um an exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 native Americans that I could find, we kind of found each other. What year was that? Uh, this was in 2005 And we are now, there’s about 25 of us now, the last time I counted. Um, so yeah, there’s, there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations and I think more and more foundations are understanding to bring folks in uh, 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:12.64] spk_1:
and not only foundations but nonprofits and Ngos doing the groundwork. Absolutely foundations of the funders. And of course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but, but for the nonprofits doing the day to day work

[00:21:15.21] spk_0:
as well

[00:21:16.01] spk_1:
represent the communities that you’re

[00:22:06.94] spk_0:
absolutely, it kind of makes sense, right? And uh, you know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff and their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re, you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit or foundation to, to have folks uh, that that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness and um, you know about the problem in a different way. It’s going to create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies. That that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes and board meetings where decisions were being made and I always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room and I hear these decisions are these conversations and I’m thinking like, oh my God, like you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother or my family that still living in poverty. Decision makers disconnected, there’s such a disconnect.

[00:23:12.94] spk_1:
Yeah, um and I I thought of what I was going to ask you about or just comment on the Foundation wise, we do see some Foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Uh I wouldn’t say it’s a needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time, that there’s a foundation that’s committed now to spending its its assets down, you know, uh was paul Allen, was that uh not paul Allen the Microsoft? I think the Microsoft founder, co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was paul Allen Okay, okay. Uh I was thinking of steve Allen comedy all comic, that’s why I thought, no, it wasn’t him, but it was paul Allen, I think his foundation is one, but there are some, so we do hear some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times people we need to move the needle.

[00:24:15.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think deciding to spin down is a very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now um if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um there there’s a lot of amazing work happening um right now that is so under resource that if we could um support and get behind investing money in these various movements and these uh in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh the 5% that is being invested, only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. That would make a big difference. And so I think um you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards of Foundation should think about, what is the value of, you know, why why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of uh you know, uh way of thinking,

[00:24:33.24] spk_1:
if this was CNN right now, I would I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times, uh we have to work on that at talking alternative, we need we need video capture and screens and everything. Uh in your video, in your interview with David Bernstein new York times, uh you said by not investing more in communities of color philanthropy? Venture capital, impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:25:52.34] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when, when policies fail or systems fail, um, we hurt the hardest and uh, but there’s just something so magical about and sense of pride that I have about my community because we are so resilient regardless of um, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the um, you know, genocide stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. Um, and so there’s, there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would, if I weren’t native, I would be interested to know like what, when you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Um, indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, um, you know, really fighting for environmental protections. Um, there, there’s so much wisdom and you know, often foundations roll out new theories of changes are changes are see strategies or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and I’m like, wow, we’ve been doing that in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:00.64] spk_1:
Is there still a lumbee community in Robinson robeson county?

[00:26:04.27] spk_0:
Yes, there are, there are about 60,000 enrolled members in the lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County

[00:26:12.59] spk_1:
now have a north Carolina driver’s license. Will that, will that get me in? Can I be a member?

[00:26:17.86] spk_0:
You know, we were very inclusive. We, we, we’ll take, we’ll adopt you as an honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation to get officially enrolled. So it’s, it’s a stretch for an italian american with north Carolina license

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
player and, uh, driver’s license. All right. Um, you, you talk about, you know, I guess, I mean, we’re skirting around these things, Make it explicit the power imbalance, you know, that, um, minorities are seeking it. And uh, mostly middle aged white guys are, are doling it out. Uh, you know, piecemeal, um, the, the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the, even the word, you know, the granting, it’s like some, uh, I don’t know, it’s like some holy orders has, has bestowed upon you something that’s a gift when, uh, your, your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s, it’s a, it’s a right equally held by all,

[00:27:46.44] spk_0:
yeah. You know, I think power and money, A lot of, a lot of this does come down to power and ownership. Um, we are talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. Um, to me, equity really is all about shifting power. And we often think about that from the lens of equality. So we’re going to have the same power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power to take a

[00:27:54.36] spk_1:
back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know, that’s, that’s highly unlikely. Like infant is really small, unlikely.

[00:28:27.24] spk_0:
You know, it’s, it’s a hard thing for people to, uh, to think about. And especially if you have, if you’ve been privileged for so long, um, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I, I, I have less than I’ve had. So, um, but you know, we, I want to think about this through an abundance of my frame. There’s enough, there’s enough resources, enough power to go around. Um, we just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging those who have not been privileged by that problem.

[00:32:43.94] spk_1:
So I love that you, you approach it from a position of abundance and not, not scarcity. It’s time for Tony’s take to gratitude all day. This is coming up just next week. So this is something for folks that are listening to the show very quickly after it’s published. No, wait, what am I saying next week? Yeah, it’s this week. It’s this week september 1st and second. It’s gratitude all day, september 1st and second Wednesday and thursday, it’s online, It’s a live stream, you join and share with the world your gratitude. What are you grateful for health, your family, friends, good drinks, prosperity, uh safety. Uh you know, I’m thinking things that well, I don’t want to share my gratitude, I’m doing that, you’ll, you’ll hear what I’m doing mine, I can’t give you mine now, I can’t do that now. So I’m trying to think of what your gratitude might be. Uh wonderful vacation blossoming flowers over the summer. Uh you got approved for your life insurance policy, you bought your new home, you sold your old home, your kids are starting college, your kids are leaving college, whatever you’re grateful for you get the idea, you join the live stream on Wednesday and thursday the 1st and 2nd and you share it with the world whatever you’re grateful for now, The best time to do this is 7-9 eastern on Wednesday september 1st because that’s the part that I’ll be hosting. See, there are different hosts throughout hosts throughout the 24 hours and I’m the hostess for 7 to 9 p.m. Eastern Wednesday night. The whole thing runs from one p.m. On Wednesday to one pm Thursday. So the best time to share your slot, share your gratitude is my slot because that’s you know, you don’t want to take a chance with with a lackluster host when you can have a lackluster host of your segment. So 79 p. M. That’s, that’s the best time to share your gratitude, although you certainly can do it anytime during the 24 hours. And where do you get all the info for gratitude all day. It’s very simple. You go to gratitude rising dot org Now if you can’t join us because you didn’t listen to the podcast the day or the day after it was published, then just do your own gratitude. You don’t have to share it with the world. Do you? Do you do daily gratitude? You know what that is in the morning when you wake up, you you just, you’re beyond the twilight zone, but you haven’t gotten out of bed yet. A couple of minutes devoted to daily gratitude. Now I don’t do it daily, but I do it often verbalizing, saying them out loud, verbalizing the things that you are grateful for, think through and go into depth about the things I’m grateful for just talking to myself, but saying them out loud. So if you can’t join us for gratitude all day, do your own day gratitude and hopefully daily gratitude that way. But I love the idea of just gratitude, giving thanks and sharing it if you can. But even even saying it out loud is, you know, sharing it with yourself. It makes a difference saying it out loud versus just thinking about it. It does, That’s gratitude and that is Tony’s take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Now I want to go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar. Villanueva. See, I thought he would pronounce his name. Edgar And I was wrong. And but that’s that’s why I said Edgar. But it’s Edgar. Edgar. A gravel in river. And de colonizing wealth. Welcome back. You didn’t go far.

[00:32:45.10] spk_0:
Thanks for having me. Okay. I’ll still be here. Yes, absolutely.

[00:33:06.44] spk_1:
You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. Um It hasn’t happened, I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s, let’s start getting uh positive. You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, And uh, I thought you came up like five short. I mean, we have another 12 steps. I mean, if you want to, if you want to share power, you’re gonna have to have, you got to step it up with like 12 steps or, or even 15, you know, you have more than the colonizers. Uh, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re they’re pretty radical.

[00:33:33.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s a there’s a quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this and we can move on

[00:33:38.37] spk_1:
prime number. So that

[00:33:56.14] spk_0:
I think that’s that’s unique. I don’t know why, but yeah, so, you know, but I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, uh, you know, a process that we can begin. but there is no linear way or a quick way to um, to solve, all these problems or to, to undo what has been done. But there are ways to, to, to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:34:07.42] spk_1:
listening out for us, just list all seven and then we’ll

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
talk about, I’m sure. So they’re grieve, apologize, listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay.

[00:34:22.54] spk_1:
Um, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while. I mean this, uh, I just did, I admire though. I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:35:30.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience, um, when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to just re ground myself and my values and um, and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space. Um, the other parts of it come from, I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and philanthropy who were, I think of very forward thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of, you know, what, what, what have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this. Um, and then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice um, in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used in schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is a model that has come from indigenous communities where we um sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:35:58.84] spk_1:
So, uh, grieving, uh, you say everybody, I mean because of our inter relatedness where we all need to grieve, including the people of color and indigenous, you know, those who have been oppressed.

[00:37:06.43] spk_0:
Absolutely, we all need to grieve. Um, we need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, um, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm and the loss that has calls for people of color, but also white people. And uh, you know, I think that’s uh, we it’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been caused a community of color. It’s not so clear. We don’t talk about it very much the loss that uh, the colonization and uh, the idea of white supremacy has actually caused in white communities. But it’s uh, it is, there is a loss there. I talk about it in the book um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and uh tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases um languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being american. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and they feel connected to that in some way.

[00:37:34.63] spk_1:
Um, and um the the thing you talk about too is uh the orphans orphans, you say that those of us who are descendants of, of the, of the settlers you call us orphans, how’s that

[00:38:54.42] spk_0:
I call them orphans. This is a term apart from some research that has been done on whiteness and it is, it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss. Again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from, from the home country, from where where folks, settlers came from giving up those, those ways of being interacting in community to subscribe to this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country um for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know, I’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that, this is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud to be a citizen of this country. Um, but there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here. Um you know, and and not um that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparents or from or the language they spoke with, the culture they have. Um and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities. That is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color. Um, and if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, um it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race.

[00:38:58.32] spk_1:
You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a real not real. Why? Why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, uh, how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not real?

[00:39:41.42] spk_0:
Um Well, well, the idea that that uh, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing. Right? So this wasn’t an ideology that was created um in order to be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been uh you know, an idea that is not real, but we have built systems and um societal norms around that. You know, growing up I was taught that you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness, was was better. And so if I were to behave or dress or act in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea of white supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not real, but there are very real implications and for how we have adopted that, that belief. All right.

[00:40:11.71] spk_1:
Um and you’re you also encourage uh nonprofits and teams to have a grieving space while we’re talking about, we’re talking about grieve, we just have about a minute before a break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps, but what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:40:54.31] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, these these steps are our personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think especially those of us working in the nonprofit where we’re supporting communities, we need to have space spaces in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that and to feel emotion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that, and the research shows that there um it’s actually um leads to a much more productive workplace to have moments where we we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening, you know, in our communities.

[00:41:33.91] spk_1:
The book is de colonizing wealth, just, just, just get the book, you know, because we can only scratch the surface of it here in an hour. But uh, de colonizing wealth dot com, that’s where you go. I like the idea of the grieving space, you know, uh acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something, you know, it’s how how how oppressive is that

[00:41:52.91] spk_0:
very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around these these secrets of like how this wealth was amassed or secrets that are within these families that um, you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward as you said,

[00:42:32.10] spk_1:
and and that was the next step in terms of uh, your next step apologizing recognizing which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money. I mean, you worked for the Reynolds KB is KB. Reynolds Foundation Reynolds tobacco north Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not going to ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the, in the step apologizing.

[00:42:35.56] spk_0:
Absolutely no, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And uh, chapter one of the book is called my arrival in the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former estate or plantation of R. J. Reynolds. And so, uh, really literally and metaphorically I was, I was working there. But no, there was, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And I think you see that, you know, in, in north Carolina, recently, the chancellor of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and building that university and that some of the buildings there named after a former slave owners, what most people of color want. Um, it’s just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition

[00:43:31.70] spk_1:
acknowledge and maybe move to apology. Perhaps that didn’t johns Hopkins University do something similar that, that they had, their founders were uh, johns Hopkins, their founders were slave owners.

[00:43:34.49] spk_0:
I think Georgetown University

[00:43:38.10] spk_1:
Georgetown. Sorry, thank you. Okay. Georgetown, there were pre right. There were priests, uh, priest founders that were slave

[00:44:16.49] spk_0:
owners. That’s right, actually, no. Um a friend of mine who lives in New Orleans as a black woman who is a descendant um and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment. They set in community together, talking about the history talk acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big right up in in the paper and you know, this has been a very uh healing I think for the university, but also from for my friend Karen, um who is now having that, you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors, you talk a

[00:44:51.49] spk_1:
good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um Canada, uh you gotta get the book. I mean, we can’t we can’t tell all these stories. I mean, I know listeners, I know I know you love stories as much as I do, but there’s just not enough time to just get the damn book. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, for Pete’s sake. You go right now, if you’re listening live, where are you poughkeepsie? It’s connected. He uh Nottingham Maryland just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Um okay, listening, you talk about and empathic and generative listening.

[00:46:20.28] spk_0:
Right? So, you know, often um, when we, when we moved through a process like this, we feel bad, we’ve apologized. Um uh, the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so, but before you move for an act, you just need to pause to actually listen, Uh, to listen and learn. So to, uh, for, for non profits. You know, I ran a nonprofit, I’ve worked in philanthropy for 14 years. When I asked nonprofits what is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently? The response is always, I just wish they would listen. Uh, because there’s something about having resources, money, privilege and power when we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the airspace and we have an agenda and the non profits are going to be responsive to what we want. And you know, that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is a difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and, and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just, it’s just going to make you a better person, uh, feel like listening as a human, right? We all want to be, We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is to, um, to, to stop at times to also listen and to let others be hard put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Uh,

[00:46:51.38] spk_1:
listening. We talked about, we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors. And I know you’re next, you’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s, that’s, that’s the beginning of a relationship. As you said. You know, listening, genuine hearing, uh, two whether its donor’s or potential potential grantees. Um, there, there’s a lot to be learned.

[00:46:53.59] spk_0:
It goes back to the

[00:47:08.98] spk_1:
value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re, that you’re serving. Uh, okay. So relation you want us to, uh, you want to relate, let me ask you, you, you, you read, um, how to win friends and influence people. You say dozens of times. You said it doesn’t, I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Uh, the L Carnegie’s book dozens of times.

[00:47:37.08] spk_0:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um, I stole from the library of uh, my mom was a domestic worker and she was caring for frail elderly man. Um, they had this vast library. So I end up with this little book that you stole from an infirm elderly elderly man. I feel terrible about a book. It haunts me to this day. So this is a public, you

[00:47:46.10] spk_1:
didn’t even think to leave like $20 or something

[00:48:26.47] spk_0:
on the table and have it if I had it at that. All right. Um So hopefully this is my my way of giving back, this is my reparations for for that that wrong. But you know, and the one take away from me in that book uh is uh is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um And if you actually just listen more than talk, people are gonna think that you’re a great friend like well Edgar that was such a nice time with you. But even if I didn’t say much and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they are important because they are um you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they are interested in. Um It’s just gonna really take you much further in building a relationship

[00:48:54.57] spk_1:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking. Um You have you you have an example of uh um a like building design, like office design. Kitchens, you’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices.

[00:49:31.07] spk_0:
Yeah. You know so sort of like these ideas of like the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So yes, even the way buildings are designed especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and you know, hard edges, absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:50:45.06] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build and to end digital campaigns, They look professional, they’re affordable, they keep your campaigns organized. It’s all about digital campaign marketing. Most software. You know, it designed for big companies with big, big enterprise level price tag, sending blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s easy to use and walks you through the steps of building a digital campaign. You want to try out sending blue and get the free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony dot M A slash send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for de colonizing wealth. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth. Again, just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, get the thing, get the book just in terms of designing organizations, uh more egalitarian you’d like to see.

[00:51:35.86] spk_0:
Absolutely. So uh, one of the steps of the book is represent and what you look at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part of the sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power in organizations. So what are the, what are the ideas that I put forth in the book? Is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. Um, this would drastically change what, you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this, uh, far from what is required of, of many nonprofits. Funders actually are, you know, requiring this, of their nonprofit, that their funding, um, and many government organizations that receive government funding, federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of those nonprofits.

[00:51:49.40] spk_1:
Again, representative? Absolutes, yeah, that’s a, that’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:51:57.36] spk_0:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has, has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:52:17.45] spk_1:
And there are some examples you cite the novo Foundation in the book. Uh, they have a women’s building that they’re, they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something to turn into this building and, and the decisions being made by, by women who are going to be using the

[00:52:45.25] spk_0:
building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are um, really, um, putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is, is a foundation that I really appreciate. Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of the Novo Foundation, wrote the forward to my book. And they are folks that you, if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give, they are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens um, to folks who are impacted by, especially women and girls, which is an issue they really care about and they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundations agenda might be.

[00:53:06.85] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? It’s guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment.

[00:53:39.05] spk_0:
Right, Right. And, and that type of long term commitment is, uh, you know, something that, that is the best type of funding, you know, folks can be, you can focus on building relationship versus so I’ve got to meet these certain objectives, so I can keep getting this money year after year and so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna, you know, how am I going to pay the salaries next year? Um really allows folks to have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing in communities

[00:53:44.55] spk_1:
and and planning and and can plans that are being

[00:53:47.42] spk_0:
one only 1 or two

[00:53:56.25] spk_1:
years. Um so we kind of mishmash together, you know, relating and representing um investing.

[00:54:44.74] spk_0:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy to think about using all of its resources for um for for the public good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle issues If we’re supporting with the 5% in our right hand, Really good work, you know, mission-related work. But in our left hand we are investing 95% of our resources in um industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really canceling out the positive of of our resources. So, you know, there are great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation for example, who just recently declare that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus is going to be used in support of their mission.

[00:54:47.29] spk_1:
Uh Again, other examples in the book and uh we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up actually. Um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:55:28.04] spk_0:
the final step is repair. Um, all of us who are philanthropists are givers and as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we are all philanthropists. I’m supporting, um, nonprofits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine, how can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization in, in, in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color um, to support grassroots leadership? So reach across, um, and support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, uh, you know, along the lines of thinking or exercising these types of values.

[00:55:50.94] spk_1:
Okay, so I’ll give you the last 30 seconds, uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by what you, what you talk about your mom.

[00:56:13.63] spk_0:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving, when we look at giving in this country, the biggest philanthropist, philanthropist or folks who are giving the most highest percentage of their income incomes are actually poor people. And so I do talk about my mom in the book, um, who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income and but yet she gave to our community and and how to run a ministry of our church to support Children,

[00:56:18.38] spk_1:
the bus ministry,

[00:56:19.36] spk_0:
the bus ministry.

[00:56:20.24] spk_1:
Just gotta, you gotta get the book,

[00:56:21.23] spk_0:
you got to read the bus ministry and so it’s giving of time treasure and talent, not just resources and so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are um you know through love is uh we’re all philanthropists

[00:56:33.73] spk_1:
get the book, go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva, thank you so much.

[00:56:37.97] spk_0:
Thank you for having me on tony real pleasure

[00:57:40.83] spk_1:
next week converting followers to donors with Adora drake, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Mhm Yeah

Nonprofit Radio for August 23, 2021: How We Got Here

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Robert Penna: How We Got Here

It’s the story of the unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s U.S. nonprofit sector. How did we come to be what we are? The story is told by Dr. Robert Penna, author of the book, “Braided Threads.” (Originally aired 8/3/18)

 

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:02.84] spk_3:
Hello

[00:01:19.44] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into this phase asia if I had to swallow the idea that you missed this week’s show how we got here. It’s the story of the unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s U. S. Nonprofit sector. How did we come to be what we are? The story is told by dr robert, Penna, author of the book, braided threads This originally aired on August 3, 2018, Antonis take two truly sharing is caring, were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Let’s get started here is how we got here.

[00:02:10.34] spk_0:
I’m very glad to welcome dr robert m pena bob back to the studio. Um he’s the author of the new book braided threads, a historical overview of the american nonprofit sector. He served for five years as a consultant to charity navigator and also as an outcomes consultant to the World Scout Bureau. Indeed, his last book was the nonprofit outcomes toolbox, which we talked about on this very show. He’s presented before, nonprofit organizations and associations across the U. S. And in Canada Poland kenya Saudi Arabia and Australia bob is a native of the Bronx new york and he still sounds like it, even though he lives in Wilmington north Carolina. You’ll find him in his book at braided threads dot com. Welcome back bob

[00:02:13.96] spk_1:
Bennett, thank you very much for

[00:02:15.13] spk_0:
having come a little closer having.

[00:02:16.49] spk_1:
Thank you very much for having me. My pleasure. Thank

[00:02:25.34] spk_0:
you for coming to the studio. Um, this braided threads, overview,

[00:02:26.06] spk_1:
overview. Um,

[00:02:28.54] spk_0:
let’s see what, you know, we’re,

[00:02:30.64] spk_2:
I think that, you

[00:02:39.04] spk_0:
know, I think you make the point, there’s just not enough of an appreciation among those of us in the nonprofit sector. Well, it’s, it’s not

[00:02:39.90] spk_1:
just where we are, where

[00:02:41.08] spk_0:
we came from, where we came from.

[00:03:19.84] spk_1:
Well, I think a lack of knowledge about the sector is probably throughout the population, but for those of us that work in it. Um, most people know it’s time to think about where it’ll come from. And uh, like so much else around us, we americans are notorious for lack of a historical sense generally. Uh, we just kind of accept that, you know, okay, that mall was built for my convenience right before I was born, forgetting about what was there before being a farmer. God only knows what is the same thing with the sector. Um, people just accept it for what it is today and you know, they don’t know the real size of the real dramatic uh, economic impact. And um, I thought that that story ought to be told. It actually started, uh, what I thought was gonna be a chapter in another work and it got as big as a book. And it was to me a fascinating, fascinating story.

[00:03:33.44] spk_0:
What’s the thread that you think is most important

[00:03:46.94] spk_1:
Resilience through the history resilience. In other words, it has changed. The reason it’s called braided threads is because it is not one unbroken series of events that took place in sequential owner and all in one line is a metaphor

[00:03:54.21] spk_0:
really for the history and and the strength. I thought

[00:04:23.24] spk_1:
both of the sector, there are all these different things that were happening that when they were woven together gave us what we have today. Uh, so that’s where the, the title came from. But if you had to pick one thing, I think it’s a story of resiliency. It’s a story of before. It was a formal sector, such as it is today. It still was a movement. It was, it was a things that people were doing and it ricocheted off of Reacted to, but also impacted events for over 200 years.

[00:04:35.94] spk_0:
You’re clear to point out that it’s not a history of nonprofits. It’s how the nonprofit sector evolved because of discrete events in

[00:04:54.44] spk_1:
history. Well, that’s why it’s called an overview. In other words, I didn’t start out with day one and try to give chronologically month by month, year by year. Whatever what I did was I looked at what I thought were the most impactful things that happened during or to the history of the sector. And those are the things I wrote about

[00:04:58.44] spk_0:
now. Um, I’m not sure we’re going to go strictly chronological. We

[00:05:01.62] spk_1:
made the book isn’t actually strictly chronological. They’re places where I had to double

[00:05:07.24] spk_0:
back. Um, now, when you were on last time we talked about Queen

[00:05:09.65] spk_1:
Elizabeth, important Elizabeth at first, but I know martin

[00:05:11.92] spk_0:
Luther uh, piques your

[00:05:13.96] spk_1:
interest. I thought

[00:05:15.30] spk_0:
pre he’s pre

[00:05:57.04] spk_1:
by about 60. His shame by about 16 years. I particularly thought it was interesting because if you look at the sector today is largely secular humanist. Um, not that there aren’t religious or religiously affiliated organizations in it, but it is not a religious sector. I mean, generally speaking, not that there aren’t religious organizations and affiliations, but it is a very humanistic secular in some cases, you might say liberal, I don’t know, uh movement and yet its roots were distinctly religious. So how did that break happen? Why did that break happened? Where did and personally, I traced it back to martin Luther and the reformation.

[00:06:00.94] spk_0:
So, you are. Well,

[00:07:07.54] spk_1:
because up until then, I mean, again, and this is not to be uh focused on just one, you know, ethnicity or religious tradition. This is certainly not to leave anybody else out. But the truth of the matter is that europe was catholic ever since, you know, Constantine made it the Catholicism Christianity, the official uh Religion of the Empire in 3 30, 80 europe was catholic. And then comes along martin Luther and he initiates along with a few other people with the reformation. And his biggest point was that unlike where the catholic church said it was faith and good works that got you into heaven, martin Luther with Sola fida faith alone and split them and he said you can do all the good works you want, they’re not going to get you into heaven. Faith is and he divided it at that point and that crack, that infant Ismael airline crack got wider and wider and wider and wider. People began to realize over time maybe they never even articulated it. It became a sense that there were certain things you do because they’re right, not because it’s an extra two points to get into heaven. This tradition had not existed there to four and that’s why I peg one of the 1st, 1st steps towards what we have today and particularly the United States with martin Luther

[00:07:15.18] spk_0:
now, uh huh and then Queen Elizabeth.

[00:07:17.86] spk_1:
Queen Elizabeth

[00:07:36.94] spk_0:
Was important. Yes. Now if listeners want to go back, you can go back to the June 2016 show, we talked for about a half an hour. Not all about Queen Elizabeth, but we talked a fair amount about her more than we’re going through today, but you could go to 20 martignetti dot com search bob’s last name pena P E N N A. And the june 2016 show last time he was on uh well well appear to

[00:08:23.84] spk_1:
You. Okay, please very quickly. Um Queen Elizabeth. We got time. Okay, Queen Elizabeth in 1601 uh issued something that was called a statute of charitable uses. And what she did was um and that’s not to say this had never happened before, but she codified with the idea that things that were of civic and civil benefit could be appropriate targets of charitable givings. What’s things founding of funding of schools, the funding of scholars, the building of bridges, the building of causeways, the ransoming of prisoners. All of these things were in this list. So what was she doing there? She was a further secularizing charity, but be she was putting into the charitable pot things that they’re 24 had not been considered charity charity, but charity was always personal to help poor. Now she’s moving far away from help the poor bridges, Bridges causes

[00:08:37.51] spk_0:
and ransoming

[00:09:02.24] spk_1:
hostages or also uh putting together a sort of a charitable pot for the dowry for poor maidens. Okay. Um there was things that today you might call you the social engineering or what what not. But the point is it was no longer the idea that charity always was always had to be about helping the poor. So first martin Luther breaks off the idea of These good deeds, having nothing to do with getting you into heaven. And then she comes along 60 years later and says on top of that charitable activity, things that are good for the community and not necessarily what was thought of his personal charity, putting the coin in the Beggar’s hand.

[00:09:19.44] spk_0:
Beyond martin Luther uh religion, the evolution

[00:09:23.28] spk_1:
of religion. I think it has been important, tremendous particularly the United States. We’re

[00:09:27.34] spk_0:
probably going to hit religion a bunch of times but give us an overview of why, why you say tremendous,

[00:10:44.44] spk_1:
Well I would say two reasons. First off because of the impact of the puritans. Um if you wouldn’t mind me mentioning another author, Colin Woodward’s book, american Nations, he makes what’s his name, Colin Woodard? American nations. He’s in your forward or your introductions in the introduction and he makes the point that they were founding cultures here in the United States and one of these founding cultures he calls yankee dumb basically the puritan culture. And uh the thing of it is that that had a tremendous impact because their worldview, they were the only ones coming here amongst the settlers, amongst the french, the spanish the Swedes, Everyone else who came here who came with this idea of creating a better society. We’ve all heard that term, the city on the hill, john Winthrop in their Mayflower compact was writing this down and was saying that amongst the things we’re going to do is every person has to be responsible for every other person built into the D. N. A. Of that colony. And what it became eventually in terms of one of the privacy dominant cultures in the United States was this concept that we have a responsibility, a civic civil human responsibility for helping each other. We’re going to come back

[00:10:47.14] spk_0:
to Winthrop, one of the new England puritans.

[00:11:53.74] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. The relationships. They have the relationships with the well known outlets nationwide to get you attention to get you coverage when you deserve to be heard when you need to be heard when there’s something in the news that you can comment on and that you want to be heard on. Or maybe it’s not something news like news hook like but maybe it’s a simple op ed or blog post or getting to podcasts. Turn to has the relationships. So if it’s cutting edge like timeliness or it’s more evergreen. They have the relationships to get you covered to get you heard because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to how we got here.

[00:12:08.84] spk_0:
So let’s jump ahead. We might come back. Like I said, we may not chronological, but you mentioned Winthrop New England puritan. The new England puritans were different than in terms of their their uh concept of charity. Then the southern,

[00:13:23.54] spk_1:
it was also a pioneer was also what it had a lot to do with was the way they set their society up. If you think of the south. Um the first off there was the tidewater south, the Maryland Virginia. Uh northern north Carolina. That was one society. But then there was what we came to know for better, ill as the south. Eventually the confederacy, etcetera that all started in south Carolina. It was a plantation. Both of these were actually plantation societies and these plantations were largely self sufficient. So amongst the things they didn’t do, they didn’t worry about having a public school because the rich took care of their own Children. They had tutors or perhaps they sent the Children away someplace. But they didn’t worry about public schools didn’t matter. And the poor didn’t need education, neither white nor black. It didn’t matter. So all of the things that we take now as thinking of their earmarks of society, their earmarks of civilization, They didn’t exist down there. Conversely, the first things you did in New England was you, where’s the village green? The church is going to be at one end congregationalist of course. Uh, the school is going to be at the other end. Everybody supported it through their taxes. So right there you had a division. This then later was reflected in terms of things like the pieces of civil society that you and I would consider to be a charitable efforts. They didn’t exist in the south

[00:13:34.44] spk_0:
since religion is a

[00:13:35.52] spk_1:
threat that it’s

[00:13:36.80] spk_0:
very important. The congregationalists in that time. They were, they were the statement that the state religion

[00:13:43.38] spk_1:
in massachusetts.

[00:13:44.46] spk_0:
Oh, just in massachusetts

[00:13:51.84] spk_1:
in massachusetts, Rhode island Connecticut there as you went for the south. It became the anglicans. In fact, the anglicans were a minority in massachusetts. And what became of, you don’t, you don’t see a pilgrim church or puritan church anymore. They became the congregationalists

[00:14:03.14] spk_0:
which were supported by uh taxes, taxes,

[00:14:05.99] spk_1:
taxes, they all work. So,

[00:14:07.16] spk_0:
I mean, a complete, uh, you know, this is obviously uh all pre revolution, pre pre constitution, but in that, in that day we had state religions.

[00:14:16.44] spk_1:
Yes, yes,

[00:14:17.12] spk_0:
in every every colony, some of the Northern state, every

[00:15:14.14] spk_1:
colony, okay, could not, you know, including eventually, you know, as things got more settled down south. The Anglicans, the angle of the Church of England was the state church. So, for example, in Virginia had to de institutionalized the anglican church. So taxes wouldn’t go to it anymore. But it did have this thread, tony of uh of how religion impacted it. It goes through this whole story because when the minister is no longer were part of the government, so to speak, they had to find a new role. You had other sects that came along after the second great awakening amongst them, the Baptists. Methodists, they were incredibly influential because they had they didn’t have all the formal theology that others had. It was, that’s why you would hear a baptist preacher referred to as brother Parsons or something, because they weren’t ordained ministers in many cases and because of that lack of formality, number one. um they could, they didn’t church necessarily, they could preach under a tree, but secondly, they also had a much more accessible kind of idea uh the way they approached it and a lot of what we see today came from specifically the baptist evangelicals and the Methodists like

[00:15:31.34] spk_0:
what about some of these traditions as well?

[00:15:38.24] spk_1:
For example, the 1st 1st nationwide survived the first nationwide uh charities you want to call were bible and tract associations and they were all run by, funded by and pushed by these southern uh evangelicals, Methodists and Baptists and that became like the first nationwide charities. Uh, the precursors of all the big ones, you know, today, they were the first ones who were like coast to coast.

[00:15:57.84] spk_0:
What else is there? Another tradition that you can,

[00:16:46.14] spk_1:
you can, I think, I think another tradition I would connect is uh the activism of many, many groups. So for example, going back to the abolition of slavery, which of course started of all places in boston, boston was the home of the abolitionist movement and a lot of the people up there were religiously affiliated. But it is also true that during Reconstruction and wanted a lot of the quote charitable work that was done down there amongst the Freeman, amongst the freed slaves, etcetera, was done by northern Methodists and northern Baptists. So this threat, this involvement, but they weren’t doing it necessarily for the, for the same reasons that going back to, you know, the 14 hundreds, the catholic slash christians were giving money to the poor that was trying to buy their way into heaven. Slowly, completely different. This

[00:16:50.36] spk_0:
was this was a contribution to society. Exactly.

[00:16:59.84] spk_1:
It was, it was like a centering the nation beyond was a secular act being done by people who who belonged to uh a particular denomination in this case. It’s interesting to see the the degree of do get think back, you know, go back to the anti war movement during the sixties, how many of those people marching? They were protestant ministers, many of them, many of them were Methodists and Baptists. This strain never went away.

[00:17:30.94] spk_0:
What was, I’m jumping way ahead now, we’ll come back to the constitution and uh separation of church and state, but um ancient greek uh Greece Rome, Egypt. What was, what was the conception

[00:17:34.92] spk_1:
of charity then? Well, Egypt does

[00:17:37.14] spk_0:
vary by empire

[00:18:06.24] spk_1:
generally speaking. I mean, even in Egypt, there are, there are higher, horrible effects have been found and have been translated that roughly say that, you know, your place in the afterlife, depending upon how you treated people in this life. So you might say there was that kind of strain of charity in Greece and Rome charity was much more uh what um Queen Elizabeth did. In other words, the idea was particularly in Rome if you want to get ahead and you wanted to be noticed. So let’s say you were in the army and you want to move into politics, you were high up in the army, you would spend stuff, you would spend money on things that the public could enjoy. Like you would build a public bath or perhaps you would pay for a temple to Athena or some small thing of this nature. But the idea was the charity in those days, did the poor didn’t count the poor didn’t exist on anybody’s radar screen. You have a totally different perspective of human nature, human value. And it was for

[00:18:29.70] spk_0:
your own it was very good

[00:18:32.94] spk_1:
for your own good. Every wrong career, right, career development, career development. But the whole idea of what you

[00:18:38.54] spk_0:
Just can spend $400 to go to a conference. Uh, then I would have had to build a temple to Athena

[00:18:41.11] spk_1:
or you could today you could make a big donation to the hospital and I put a plaque on the wall with your name. This is tony-martignetti wink. I’d rather build a temple. But

[00:18:59.64] spk_0:
um, okay, that’s interesting. All right, thank you. So, so let’s go. All right. So now we have uh, our constitution, our bill of Rights, the First Amendment, um, obviously religion, no, no state religion and and separation of church and state. So how did these factor into

[00:20:39.54] spk_1:
these? Factored industry in three different ways. Number one, part of those, The First Amendment is the right of assembly, um, which the british kept an eye on when they, when they were in charge. Well now you could formally have, you could have group meetings, you could organize, you need to worry about perhaps the king’s soldiers would come and say break this up while you six people gathering here. One of the things that people did was they formed organizations de Toqueville Uh wrote back in 1830 something when he wrote his famous uh his famous review of of America based upon his tour that Americans were already organizing for virtually everything you name, the thought, music, culture, politics, something that they thought would be americans were organizing. He has, he has a comment that says, Uh where in England you will find a personal great wealth or prominence heading up an effort or where in France you will find the government doing that in America. You virtually always find it being done by a citizens organization interesting. So this has been a toqueville was here in like the early 21st, 20 years or so of American independence. I mean, I believe he wrote democracy in America somewhere around 1834. Um, and these are already his reflections by 1820, the New England area already had over 2000 of these citizen voluntary organizations. They were the precursors of today’s nonprofits. Yeah.

[00:20:40.54] spk_0:
And how are they structured? What do we know about their, their

[00:21:00.84] spk_1:
organs were structured like they were structured sort of, as you know, an association, they had by laws, they had officers, what they didn’t have was either illegal corporate identity, nor did they have uh any sort of fiscal power. Because the laws that created what we call today, a corporation? Yeah. Didn’t exist back then.

[00:21:06.64] spk_0:
All right, so we’re in the like early to mid 1800s. Are they are they doing their own independent fundraising?

[00:24:28.64] spk_1:
Yes, they were. Well, they were doing yes, they were doing when we would they called us? They would call it a subscription. They would call it a subscription. They put out a subscription player, subscription request, and it was today’s fundraising, but they called it a subscription. But the key things in those days were threefold. Number one. Uh they weren’t incorporated, so they didn’t have a legal standing identity, such as people don’t like about Citizens United. That whole idea that it didn’t exist, secondly, they did not have any uh separate fiscal ability to buy to sell to. They didn’t. And the third thing was that the officers or whoever was there, the officers were the identity. So if mrs smith or jones quit and or died very often the operation would fall apart because there’s no way to keep it going. It was very, very crucial for them to eventually get this right to uh to uh incorporate. And one of the most key points about this was that they eventually incorporated under the state laws, the laws of their home states. Now, who then control them? Did the state legislature because it charted them or allow them to incorporate control them or were they independent? And there was a crucial um, a crucial court case involving Dartmouth University whereby the courts found that even if public money went to these entities and even if in fact these public entities, these entities were incorporated under state law. Legislature couldn’t touch them. The Legislature could not give the money, but the Legislature could not tell them in this case. Specifically Dartmouth University what to do That. Independence was crucial because it allowed these organizations to in many, many, many cases proceed government in various efforts. Whether it was schools for the Children of freed former slaves, Whether it was schools for uh, today you called handicapped the death the blind. Uh They would very often create certain they would call them asylums. Today, you might call them orphanages for Children. There was one in new york city that was specifically for the, shall we say, uh Children of prostitutes who might have been called bastards back then or might be called illegitimate. Nobody. Where did these kids go? What did you do with them? And there were, there was a privately funded asylum was created just for those people. Just those Children for the poor as well. Very old houses. Well, arms houses. They, yes, very, very largely funded by these private entities. But very often, particularly in new york city new york city under Mayor de witt clinton high School in Brooklyn and the Bronx. Yes, right. He, he became, he was governor at one point. Um, he was not only when he was mayor, he was also head of one of the largest charitable efforts in the, in the city and was even back then. We’re talking early immigrants around, I’m guessing here trying to remember 18 20 something like that. I don’t remember the executives of his, uh, his term of office, but the city was already paying well. Today you would call a nonprofit to run the, run the schools for the poor. So in new york state, particularly this tradition of public money going to a not what we today would call a nonprofit to provide a Legislatively desirable and socially desirable end. Think about it Tony, this is 2018, you’re almost 200 years later, we’re still doing the same thing. Yeah,

[00:24:47.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I love that around this period. Let’s take mid 1800s. So what, what’s happening in the, in the rest of the country? Well,

[00:26:13.94] spk_1:
the slavery slavery about it? Well, slavery and civil war are percolating and a tremendous number of, of um Efforts, private government effort, rather private citizen efforts, uh, were trying to have the slave trade stopped because the constitution originally said that the government could not do anything even in the slave trade, not slavery, but the trade for 20 years. So this effort was going on for a long time and it was all being done by, by citizens in 99% of them up north. Um, a lot of them either spurred by or uh inspired by the culture of Yankee dim which was spreading across the country at that point. I mean think about it through from the mohawk valley to the Ohio valley, we spread from east to west and this culture came with us. And uh, the number of people who felt that this was a scar on our national character uh, increased and um, I mean, you’ve heard, you know the Missouri compromise, bleeding Kansas, we all know what all the things that led up to the civil war, but what was while that was going on, there was this tremendous effort to, among other things, abolished slavery, but at the same time penal reform, um, reform to end uh, what’s the biggest show in new york Hamilton? Right, Hamilton and burr dueling outlaw dueling. Um, all season. These

[00:26:17.06] spk_0:
are, these are efforts by the, by their non profit or

[00:26:21.37] spk_1:
These organs by these organizations. Okay, now the term non profit didn’t come along until 1950. Yeah, we’re

[00:26:26.62] spk_0:
gonna get the right, we’ll get to the tax exemption. Okay, but by the penal reform, what else, what else can you think of other examples what they were doing around this time. It was very,

[00:27:10.64] spk_1:
very interesting amongst these subscriptions today. You know, there there’s everybody is familiar with the term five oh one C three. Well the three denotes one level of five oh one C. There are actually 29 of them. Well, one of them. One of the earliest was what was called mutual society sort of mutual aid or mutual. Today there are mutual insurance companies which are non profit They started back then. The idea is you would again have a subscription and if a fire hit your house, this would pay money to you to get you back on your feet. This was another my nonprofit effort that didn’t exist. Benjamin for

[00:27:11.57] spk_0:
every year where I guess I remember Benjamin franklin, but every year I get my subscribers check from us, a right, a mutual mutual benefit uh insurance insurance company and now and bank. Ben

[00:27:53.04] spk_1:
Franklin. Ben franklin uh, is credited with founding amongst the first uh, non profit things in the United States. The Volunteer Fire corps in philadelphia, one of the first libraries, uh, the Juno Society. These were all today you’d call them nonprofit effort efforts uh, that he founded uh, in philadelphia before the revolution. So again, this was, but interestingly enough, not down south. Yeah, not down south. Once you started to get towards around the north Carolina border, you didn’t see it because of the plantation economy because of the culture. They didn’t

[00:27:56.42] spk_0:
have a civic, there wasn’t a civic, the civic sense. We have community sense. There was this my plantation, right? We take care of everything

[00:28:15.54] spk_1:
here. This is why two of the most revolutionary things that happened down there was thomas. Jefferson’s founding of the University of Virginia North Carolina’s founding one of the first state universities in the country because that was unheard of down there. It was just unheard of. So all of these efforts, as I say, we’re primarily northern.

[00:28:22.74] spk_0:
We have about a minute before the break. Um, the tax exemption, I feel like this is a good time. When did that, when did that?

[00:28:26.45] spk_1:
Uh taxes first? Tax exemption started way way way back because you have to ask about which taxes. So it’s probably gonna be more than it wasn’t

[00:28:33.99] spk_0:
religion. Okay. Wasn’t religion the religion

[00:28:39.54] spk_1:
1st Exemption. Religion and can also speak schools and things and things of that nature. So go back to that. Alright.

[00:28:45.74] spk_0:
It broadened but it started with, okay, so we teased it together

[00:28:46.94] spk_1:
and you always do,

[00:28:48.28] spk_0:
thank you very much. Always tease.

[00:31:12.84] spk_2:
It’s time for Tony’s take two truly sharing is caring who can you share. non profit radio with. I’ve been providing suggestions through the weeks. How about the new folks to nonprofits, the newbies there? Like babes in the woods, they’re, they’re jumping to, to avoid the obstacles there. Following the immediate direction. They’re just trying to get from like tree to tree to move forward. The trees are the, the metaphorical trees are the tasks that they’re given either by your office or somebody, you know who they work for, but they don’t see the big forest, they don’t, they can’t take the higher level view. They don’t know where they fit in overall. They’re just produce these labels. Let’s get this mailing uh, do this, query uh, volunteered to do this. Volunteer activity beep boop. But what’s the bigger picture? It will be elucidated, they will get illuminated, they will find their way through the from tree to tree because they’ll see the entire forest through nonprofit. radio There’s the, there’s the, I don’t know what this but the new folks, the new folks, they need some help. Right? Really? How do they fit in their, their, the, the development assistance, the Development associates. Maybe you were there have have empathy for them or maybe you weren’t, maybe you got right in at the director level or the, the Associate VP level or the VP level or have empathy for them. Anyway, non profit radio can help the new movies because we’ve got to bring them along. Right. We’ve had guests talk about this, we all know this, we have to bring them along, get them started on the right path through the forest. non profit radio if you can share. non profit radio with somebody new to nonprofits, it’s going to help them and it will help me. And I say thank you That is Tony’s take two. Now back to how we got here,

[00:31:49.24] spk_0:
bob pen is with me. His new book is braided threads, a historical overview of the american nonprofit sector, just get the book because you know, we can’t do it. Justice. Of course you’re interested in how are sector, our community evolved to what it is now. Um get the book. You know, we’re hitting some threads, some braided threads if you will. But you want the full story. You know, even, you know, bob mentioned something. I was like, oh yeah, the Dartmouth case, you know, I can’t remember at all. Um, just by the thing for Pete’s sake. All right. Um, where were we see now? I’ve ranted about bees and sunshine and all this live love. Where were we?

[00:32:06.24] spk_1:
Well, you well, you also screwed up the whole thing about baseball, but that’s another thing. Well, you have baseball doesn’t have touchdowns. But anyway, that’s different. We’re talking about, we’re talking about taxes and tax exemption and that’s what you would ask about.

[00:32:08.82] spk_0:
Thank you. So, it started religion was the first one. What period are we talking about now? We’re

[00:33:24.74] spk_1:
Going back to probably the 1600s. And that’s the point of the matter is we ask what taxes. Alright, Alright. Federal government levied very very few taxes before that. The state’s levied. Not that many taxes? Most taxes were on property and very early on churches were exempted from paying those taxes. Uh Now it wasn’t just the church building, it also became the the parsonage where the minister lived. Uh then if there was another building library perhaps, then schools obviously we’re not text, be they private or be they public. Clearly, a public government is going to tax itself. So public institutions like a public school would never we’re never uh text, but the idea was that the exemption list grew bigger and bigger. New york state was obviously this was going on in all states. I happened to have a quite an extensive accounting in the book of how the new york state list just kept getting broader and broader and broader and broader. Uh At one point, it was interesting because the law was changed to allow organizations that included in their charter or their mission, the uh the enhancement of the minds of young people or something. That’s how the why got in because the why had tried to get a tax exemption had gone to court. They’ve been turned down, they had to pay the tax bill. But everybody thought gee the why should be in in this. So why is very

[00:33:42.12] spk_0:
interesting to uh in the world

[00:33:43.92] spk_1:
wars? Yeah, well, that’s right in the book, right, that they were also involved. Yeah, this is the book. I know, yeah. But what I’m saying is that the why was not really was was not mentioned organizations like why now you mention New

[00:34:01.84] spk_0:
york State. Yes. Um I love this. Uh one thing I want to read this from 17 99 uh New york state. You you cite new york state has sort of Representative

[00:34:06.11] spk_1:
represent what was happening around there were very issues but it’s very representative. This

[00:34:33.84] spk_0:
Is an act for the assessment and collection of taxes. New York State 1799 Excerpt. I won’t read the whole thing. Of course, no house or land belonging to any church or place of public worship or any personal property belonging to any ordained Minister of the Gospel, nor any college or incorporated academy nor any schoolhouse, courthouse, jail, arms house or property belonging to any incorporated library shall be taxed by virtue of

[00:36:29.73] spk_1:
This act. Right. And that that list just kept going and as I said at one they amended it to include, and I forget the specific wording was something about the betterment of the minds of young men and women because there was the Y. M. C. A. And the Y. W. C. Young young men and young women’s christian association so that the law was changed and basically what the courts said was that these operations were doing good. They were doing good things and were beneficial to society and therefore society. Uh It was in society’s interest, but also as just a smart thing to do. We are going to do our bit by supporting them to the extent that we do so by alleviating them from the tax burden. They were still not called non profits because that concept him way later. Um But these organizations, these voluntary and for a long time it was called the voluntary sector. Uh, these are, yes, that was the name of uh, these organizations increasingly became uh tax free, what we know today as the people call them non profits. I’ll do this relatively quickly. Um, one of the last revenue acts of the 1800s uh included this idea that these kinds of organizations could be, should be exempted from federal taxes. That particular revenue act was found unconstitutional. However, when things started to fall into place and you remember, it was the 16th amendment that made the income tax legal in the United States. When that happened, the recognition that these organizations should be exempt was codified and it had to be three things. Number one, it had to be incorporated as a non profit. What does that mean? Does it mean they can’t make profit They can’t make money. Know what it means. Is that what any excess extra? It has to go back in? Well, it has to go back in. They cannot.

[00:36:31.43] spk_0:
This was contemporaneous with the 16th Amendment

[00:37:26.33] spk_1:
was well, shortly following that. But what does the nonprofit means? That rather mean? Doesn’t mean it can’t make money? No, that doesn’t, that’s not what it means, what it means. It can’t take that profit and distributed to partners distributed to stockholders distribute. It has to go back into the pot. That’s number one. The second thing is that no, none of its activities can make money for any of the officers. Right? And the third of the third idea uh is that the, well the roles and the idea is a nonprofit non distribute orI and doing some sort of civic good and so very often it was charitable and there was a charitable educational and the list got you know bigger now family really machinery. I like that word to me sir. That’s what they believe, believe that is maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right. I remember I come from the Bronx so I’m different pronunciation. Um

[00:37:35.13] spk_0:
well you were wrong about you around baseball

[00:38:21.32] spk_1:
Too. So our president tax liabilities president tax code comes from 1954. That was the first place where they laid out what we have today, this 501C category. And where the general exemption from. Originally the idea was that if these organizations made money they didn’t have to pay a corporate income tax on it. Then it became not legally but in terms of practice that they are basically free from almost all taxes other than things like excise taxes are taxes on gasoline or something that you pay as part of a bill, which is why the local men’s association will go to a restaurant and they’ll have the banquet and they give the the the owner, here’s my tax free by tax free number and they won’t have to pay sales tax on the restaurant. Yeah. Okay. So that’s where all that came from. But it was in terms of its codification. Although the roots go back to the 1600s codification goes back to 1954.

[00:38:31.12] spk_0:
Okay. Is that the 16th amendment? Was that

[00:38:33.10] spk_1:
The 16th Amendment was 1913? That’s what allowed the income permitted

[00:38:44.42] spk_0:
an income federal income tax. Okay, Okay. Um let’s uh were World War One. We saw an expansion. Uh

[00:38:46.74] spk_1:
yes, Yes.

[00:38:49.32] spk_0:
Why?

[00:39:20.72] spk_1:
Why? Because really? Well, because there was no functional way for the government to step in. One of the more fascinating things about it, was that the you meant we were talking about the why the why was the first organization to do what today? You think in terms like the Red Cross, you know, POW POW camps, uh, you’re checking on status bringing, you know, prisoners. Nobody did that government. Sure as heck did neither the union or the confederate government. It was the why the YMCA that first started this bringing this service to both sides to the confederates and northern. So they were they were in uh in confederate POW camps, ministering, so to speak to union prisoners and vice versa. You

[00:39:31.28] spk_0:
say that the White was the first large scale service

[00:39:41.52] spk_1:
corps, really, you could say that you can’t say that the other. So comes along World War One. Um there was a need for this, but nobody else to do it.

[00:40:33.81] spk_2:
It’s time for a break send in blue, It’s the all in one digital marketing platform with the tools that help you build end to end digital campaigns that are professional, affordable, organized and keep you organized digital campaign marketing. Most software designed for big companies, you know this and has the enterprise level price tag, send in blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a digital campaign. If you want to try it out and get a free month and a 300,000 emails hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for how we got here.

[00:40:37.01] spk_0:
Why the why it was the Y. M. C. A. Initially or was it why it was there? Why?

[00:40:41.96] spk_1:
No. Well there’s two Y. M. C. A young men’s christian association and the young women’s, which came first who I am.

[00:40:49.13] spk_0:
Okay, so first large scale service corps. And

[00:43:29.00] spk_1:
well what happened was this, in other words, when World War One started? And uh, there was a need, when the americans got involved, when there was a need uh, to again uh brain services to this army that was being raised, whether it was, you know, outside of Fort Dix or whether it was, you know, eventually when the A. F. Got across the to the other side across the pond, expeditionary forces, right? American expeditionary force? Uh, the whole idea was somebody had to do the same sort of thing. And why was the first one to step in the Red Cross eventually joined the Salvation Army eventually joined. But all of this was being done privately. Meantime, both prior to America’s entry into the war and after it was a tremendous amount of uh refugee, if you will victims victims relief. I mean, you know, war is terrible whatever word is and there’s always collateral damage. The people who were displaced the homes that are destroyed. Well during war governments don’t stop to worry about taking care of that. They move on, they want to have a war to try to win. So who took care of those people? The refugee problem was tremendous. Belgium became one of the worst sites of it because when the Germans invaded Belgium, the al I said well you have to feed the Belgians because most of the belgians of food came from outside, German said no we’re not gonna be bothered doing that. We’re feeding our troops. You want to give them food, you give them food. Well, it was a relief effort that began in the United States that started working to bring food to Belgium. But it was not government, it was all private. It was all voluntary. It was all what you today would call non profit before our and there’s actually pictures, one of the few pictures that are in the book before the war, before the U. S. Got involved in the war when we were supposed to be officially neutral. Yes, there were organizations raising money for the poor and the suffering and the widows in Belgium and France. And but they were also organizations doing the same thing directing money to the german empire. The Austria Hungarian Empire in Turkey because we were officially neutral. So there are actually a couple of pictures in the book. I would appreciate it more pictures by the way I like, well I’m sorry, next next book of more pictures. But the whole idea was this entire effort was being done privately after the war, massive relief effort run by Herbert Hoover most of it. Not all of it at that point the U. S. Government was committing money but A great deal of it. You know, I don’t know proportion 60% maybe uh was all private.

[00:43:30.25] spk_0:
Today’s USO was formed by a collection of a bunch of the collaboration of a bunch of the organizations. You mentioned the Y. M. Y. W. C. A. Regular.

[00:43:38.50] spk_1:
Uh,

[00:43:40.28] spk_0:
that’s today’s United Service

[00:45:29.09] spk_1:
organization. Right? And that’s where that’s where it was a coalition that was found was one of the first ever like that. One of the first ever efforts. I mean there are all sorts of things that happened back then that we we today for example, you’ve heard of United Way. Everybody knows United Way. You know where United what came from? I dont Community Chest Community Chest and you know today, most people in the Community chest is a sort of a space in the car. I’m a reporter. Okay. Community chest was local fundraising specifically for disaster, personal tragedy, private relief. So if you lost your job or the factory burned down and five people lost their job. Community chest was, was, was the entity in each individual community that would they would go to for relief. I mean, maybe if they belong to a particular denomination and the church might help them out or as well or you know, temple or you know, there’s a lot of that, I mean both and there’s a whole section in there on both the jewish and catholic specific uh, contributions to what we know today as the american nonprofit sector. That, that’s interesting reading on, on its own, but this isn’t to say the churches were involved, but every community, there was no public relief, there was no public welfare and so if dad died or fell off the roof and broke his leg and couldn’t work, there was no unemployment insurance, there was no workers comp people very often they went to Community Chest. What wound up happening was, uh, one of the transformative events was what we might call a cooperative fundraising. If everybody fun fund rose for fundraising, fundraising, whatever the the past tense that is by themselves, you want with competing appeals and they’re banging into each other. Well, uh, it actually started to believe it was in Cleveland was one of the first ones. Uh, I know there was one in Denver, there was one in uh, in uh Detroit, There was one, I believe it was Cleveland. Was

[00:45:48.69] spk_0:
this around the, was this also the hoover administration were now profit complained were basically testified before Congress were basically running over each other, stepping over each other, trying to, trying to help. Oh yeah. Also also was that the Great Depression or

[00:46:34.48] spk_1:
no? Yes, yes and no. You know, there was what you’re talking about was World War Two, uh, stepping on each other and tripling over. That was World War Two. No, what happened was when the, when the Depression hit, um, sort of the thought was that, uh, this community chest would step up and community chest tried, they would have instead of one annual drive, they were having to annual drives. They tried three. But the problem, as we all know, was much bigger than anybody could have predicted foreseen. And their efforts were just not up to the fact that the entire economy crashed, which is why government had to get in that. It was obviously FDR FDR appointed Harry Hopkins to run the relief effort. Harry Hopkins thought that it really should be local government that was doing this. Local governments sitting off on the side. They’re very happy not to be involved. So what Harry Hopkins did was, he said, okay, we’re gonna do this and it’s going to be federal money, but none of the money can go to what today would call non profits because they got completely cut out.

[00:46:52.78] spk_0:
That was not, that was not to punish phenomenon that was to encourage, that was to

[00:46:57.73] spk_1:
force the states unwilling

[00:46:59.40] spk_0:
states and states that had not taken on public welfare right to do it. Or we’re doing give the money to the state. But we, the federal money won’t go to these community chest. Exactly right. They’re trying to force the hand unwilling recalcitrant

[00:48:06.37] spk_1:
states and localities and localities. But, but yes, that’s and that was Hopkins idea of course. Now what did the nonprofits do? I mean this kind of left them out in the cold. Now, you also have to realize that at this point we were talking about community chest, but this was one, this is not to say that the arts efforts weren’t going on and people weren’t founding zoos and botanical gardens. And a lot of this was originally founded by private garden clubs or a zoological society. But the nation was in crisis and relief was always from the charitable sector, which is why it was called the show. And now they couldn’t do it anymore because it was too big a job and be the federal money couldn’t go to them had, you know, Harry Hopkins said no. So they, we invent themselves. I mean, I said the US made early on what was the theme I keep saying resiliency. And one of the things that one of the earliest tests of this resiliency was after the depression because basically the Fed said you can’t have anybody, you know, more money for you. So,

[00:48:15.77] spk_0:
um, say a little about the, uh, the jewish contribution to what we

[00:49:54.47] spk_1:
Know. I think this is utterly fascinating. There’s a book, believe it guys named wrote it was cale calendar. I don’t know how Taylor County, it’s called the gifts of the Jews. The gift of the Jews book is probably 20 years old at this point. But he makes the point that one of the biggest contributions that the jewish culture, the jewish religion made to us here in the United States was in fact cultural, cultural. It had to do with how human beings were viewed when the jewish immigration here started in large. Think about where these people come from, they were either, you know, they were persecuted in czarist Russia. They were persecuted in Poland, which was part of czarist Russia. They were kicked out of spain. I mean, you know, 1000 years of this, they had an outsider perspective, nobody else had and they brought that here with them and when they got involved in charity and what they were the ones they, they were the biggest analyze of the black civil rights movement because their idea that nobody should be an outsider was central to them. And they brought that to that. You think about today’s nonprofit space, We are concerned about the handicapped were concerned about all sorts of groups that you might call marginalized with semi marginalized and this was antithetical to the jewish world view. So to me, whereas a lot of these other charities were taking care of their own. So for example, there was the irish working in such and such, but you have to be irish. The jews said no inclusive, inclusive.

[00:49:56.57] spk_0:
Excellent. Thank you. The jewish

[00:50:27.16] spk_1:
tradition. I just, I cannot emphasize that enough because I mean truly today, if you look at at the, the whole core of the nonprofit mission, it is inclusivity and I personally feel that without the incredible jewish influence that particularly here in new york and new york became kind of like one of those centers of the nonprofit world. It still is. I cannot emphasize enough how strongly I believe that that, that world view, yeah, that threat, um, truly truly help the imprint. Uh, what we have today.

[00:50:33.96] spk_0:
You got to get the book because there’s some things were not going to be a great depression. Uh, Kennedy’s new frontier. And then uh, johnson, johnson and johnson’s war against four. War on poverty.

[00:50:46.44] spk_1:
We have about 3, 4 minutes. Uh,

[00:50:48.70] spk_0:
five. I want to talk about the future too.

[00:51:41.86] spk_1:
Okay. But then I’ll do very quick. Let me just do johnson All right, johnson set us on the road that we’re on the war on poverty, Right. War right. Great society, war on poverty. We are today farther down that road and that road is being fancied up there are, you know, there are curbs where maybe they didn’t used to be curbs, there’s a newer pavement, nicer pavement and original, but it’s the exact same road. What johnson did was, he said, we’re going to take federal money and we’re going to change poverty, We’re going to eradicate whatever his goal was. But it wound up that it wasn’t the government that was doing it. It was government money going to community action agencies and To nonprofits. Now we don’t time now to go to talk about what happened to non profits during the 50s between World War II and we, you know, to get the book, just get the book as well. I have the book. Oh, you mean that they should be talking to

[00:51:42.99] spk_0:
The 13,013,000 who are joining this

[00:52:29.55] spk_1:
condition, They should get, I should hope to God you have a copy of that, That’s a different story. But the whole point was that it was hard to get for me to get one LBJ LBJ set us on the road that we’re on. We’re on now. And my feet feeling and maybe there are people in the sector would argue, uh, you know, this is my theory is that basically things have not really changed in direction, They’ve changed in degree. Now, the nonprofit sector is not just the partner of government, there’s, it’s dependent upon the government. I mean, look what happened to the sector, during the depression. It wasn’t that individuals stopped giving individuals, even during the worst of the great recession, we’re giving corporate was down. The corporate is not that big. It was government money. The sector today is very, very reliant on. So again, johnson set us on the road that we’re on now and we are just farther down and very much deeper into it.

[00:52:46.75] spk_0:
I want to look, don’t look, don’t look forward. You, you cite generational change and technology change as our biggest, uh, opportunities, opportunities and

[00:53:07.95] spk_1:
challenges. I think, I think two of the two of the three biggest things, because we end the book on what’s happening in the future. That’s the last, the last Third or 25% of the book. I think that the three biggest things that are impacting the sector and sectors largely unaware of it is number one of the growth. We are adding 50,000 a year, Uh, in 1990, there were a couple of 100,000 nonprofits in the United States today. There’s, there’s a startling

[00:53:13.53] spk_0:
Chart in the book, one of the pictures of the picture of

[00:54:35.94] spk_1:
the chart I drew it myself dramatic. Um, now there’s over 1.76 million. Actually, nobody as, as, uh, Lester Solomon, who is one of the stages of the sector says nobody really knows how many there are. And it’s because there’s no registration, there’s reporting a different story. So the growth, this can’t just go on 50,000 new ones a year. Even given 3-4%, you know, uh, dwindling and going away. Talk about technology and technology. Uh, you talked before about making online donations easy. That is changing the paradigm between donors and organizations such as we’ve never seen before. You and I are of an age when we still remember, uh, March of dimes going door to door. All right, That is over the canisters canisters. But think about it now. We are making it so easy for online or text, but we’re also making it very easy to give uninformed donations because it’s impulse. It’s on the second. It’s right there in your finger. The third thing is the generational change. We’re already seeing the statisticians and the demographic demographers already seeing a great, great, great change in terms of values and behavior amongst the millennials and us, but not just us, also the generation right behind us. So these three things churning are Have the power to totally change the nonprofit sector as we know it over the course of the next 15 years. And all I’m saying is we as a sector should be aware of these things and be prepared for what could happen and maybe try to steer the ship instead of just being a cork bobbing along where the tides and the winds take is where they will.

[00:54:54.74] spk_0:
Okay, just get the book for God’s sake bob, penna braided threads, a historical overview of the american nonprofit sector, you’ll find bob and his book at braided threads

[00:55:05.01] spk_1:
dot

[00:55:05.56] spk_0:
com. Thank you very much bob. Thank you.

[00:55:42.34] spk_2:
Next week. Edgar Villanueva returns with a popular archive show de colonizing wealth. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein,

[00:55:50.86] spk_3:
Thank you

[00:55:52.00] spk_2:
for that information scotty

[00:55:53.74] spk_3:
be with

[00:55:54.07] spk_2:
me next week for nonprofit radio

[00:55:55.92] spk_3:
Big non

[00:56:12.84] spk_2:
Profit Ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Yeah.