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Nonprofit Radio for October 18, 2021: Engaged Boards Will Fundraise

My Guests:

Michael Davidson & Brian Saber: Engaged Boards Will Fundraise

Michael Davidson, the board coach, and Brian Saber from Asking Matters, have teamed up to write the book that reveals how to get your board to fundraise: Engage them.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:10.94] spk_3:
Hello and

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welcome to tony-martignetti

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Non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast.

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Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of

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cellulitis if you inflamed and

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irritated me with the idea that you missed this week’s show

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engaged boards

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will fundraise

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Michael Davidson, the board coach and brian Saber from asking matters have teamed up to write the book

[00:00:49.54] spk_5:
that reveals how to get your board to fundraise engage them

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and tony state too

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podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turning to communications

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pr and content for nonprofits.

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Your story is their mission turn hyphen two

[00:01:11.44] spk_2:
dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Michael Davidson and brian Saber, Michael is a consultant specializing in nonprofit board development management, support,

[00:01:22.34] spk_5:
leadership, transition and executive coaching for nonprofit managers. He has over 30 years experience in nonprofit board and managerial leadership.

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Michael’s at board coach

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dot com.

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Brian Saber is a co founder of asking matters

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and one of the fields preeminent experts on the art and science of asking for charitable gifts face to face. He’s been working with boards for more than

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35 years

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to help unlock their fundraising potential

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brian’s company is at asking

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matters dot com and he’s

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at brian Saber together. Michael and bryan co authored the book engaged boards will fundraise

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how good governance inspires them.

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Their book

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brings both of them and back to nonprofit radio

[00:02:12.24] spk_2:
Michael and brian welcome back to

[00:02:15.54] spk_0:
the show what a pleasure great to be back very.

[00:02:17.85] spk_1:
Happy to be here

[00:02:18.61] spk_0:
Glad to have you.

[00:02:21.84] spk_2:
Yes, congratulations on the book. Thank

[00:02:22.12] spk_0:
you,

[00:02:27.44] spk_2:
Michael, your book title is emphatic. There’s no hedging no qualifications.

[00:02:31.34] spk_0:
Absolutely. How can you be

[00:02:32.40] spk_5:
so sure engaged boards will

[00:03:44.94] spk_0:
fundraise? Well, it’s a it’s a great, great question, tony and it really is the answer to that is in the title if if you’ve got a board that really does care about what the mission and the vision is of the organization, that’s why they’re there. If they have that personal motivation to be involved in your organization and to care about the impact that you’re having in the, in the world and are engaged in the ownership of that impact, in managing it. They care enough to do this. What are our whole premises? We can teach board members how to fundraise, brian has been doing that forever. Our job is to figure out how do we make board members want to fundraise and making them want to fundraise is engaging them, engaging them with their fellow board members, connecting them with their fellow board members and deeply connecting them with the vision and the passion that brought them to your board in the first place. That’s the simple, really the simple answer for this. If they’re engaged, they’re gonna want to, they’re gonna want to make this organization happen, which includes raising the money for it

[00:04:00.24] spk_2:
and much of the book is getting that engagement doing it properly. We go from details like the board meeting, which we’re gonna talk about two to broader engagement. You want

[00:04:10.41] spk_0:
Yes. In fact, you say

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fundraising must be

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fully integrated

[00:04:15.98] spk_2:
with the active engagement

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of the board

[00:04:18.72] spk_2:
in its, uh, fiduciary and leadership roles.

[00:04:22.78] spk_0:
Right

[00:04:34.24] spk_2:
flush that out for us a little bit. Uh, you know, we got plenty of time together. You don’t have to, you don’t have to pack it all into one answer. But why are we starting to get into their fiduciary in leadership roles? And, and there that relationship with fundraising?

[00:05:18.84] spk_1:
Well, let’s look at the budget for example, and often a budget is presented to the board. The staff puts together a budget and if it seems like it adds up the board approves it often it’s maybe just slightly incremental from the last one. Not a lot of explanation, sometimes a lot of detail without higher level explanation. And so the board is basically just, I hate to say rubber stamping it and that, that’s just that’s very passive if the board is involved in developing the budget and has really given a sense of what can be accomplished with a larger budget

[00:05:29.04] spk_0:
and get to choose

[00:06:34.24] spk_1:
and say yes, we’d like to do more. And we understand our role in that, that we can’t just tell the staff to raise more here is where the money comes from, here is our role. This is how we develop larger donors. It does take the board unless where university with a big major gift staff were it for most organizations. The board is the major gift staff. We get that we want our organization to do more. We’re going to agree to this budget, knowing all of that, then they’re in it together. Everyone around the table is a knowing, a willing participant very different. And we don’t see a lot of that happening. And yes, it’s hard on, especially smaller organizations to get all of this done. But it’s critical. It’s critical not to shortchange the process. If we short change the process, we can’t expect the board too enthusiastically go out and fundraise. This reminds me

[00:06:34.96] spk_2:
of that

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old conventional

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wisdom, you know, ask for if you want money asked for an opinion, your, if you want to, if you want an opinion, ask for money, you’re, you’re, you’re saying you’re getting the board’s opinion, you’re calling an engagement. But it’s bringing in the board’s opinions about what the organization should be doing. What should be paring back where it should be heading. Is that, is that, is that essentially what you’re doing is getting bored getting bored opinions

[00:08:57.24] spk_0:
an ownership because it’s not just their opinion on the budget. They put their opinion into this budget, They work with staff on developing it. But at the end of the day they raise their hand and they say, I approve this budget with these particular fundraising goals included. It. I agree to this. They make that decision. You know, one of the things that’s interesting in connection with this, this puts a lot more work on staff. They got to spend more time on the budget. And very often stand said, oh my God, leave the board, we’ll do the budget. Don’t bother them, it’s going to take too much time to explain all of this to them. They may disagree with us on our priorities, they may think other things are important. I don’t want to get involved in that. Let’s just give them a budget a quick five minute vote and done right. So it requires staff executive director to say, you know, if you want a board that’s going to fundraise, you’ve got to spend the time listening to them explaining to them engaging with them and they may come out somewhat differently than you do. You’ve got to live with that. You got to live with that. It’s not your organization, it’s your joint organization. That’s, you know, that’s a lot of work. So, you know what we’re saying may sound simple, you know, has for advice. You get money. But the reality is, there’s a commitment involved, Both on the part of board members and on the part of staff to make this, you know, staff comes to us all the time, but Brian and I’m here this 10 times a day. My board won’t fundraise. Oh, well, what are you doing to get them to do that right, just another

[00:09:00.48] spk_1:
piece of it, which we’ll get to it, having them do the right fundraising. So that’s the other half of the equation, which cover because it is a double edged sword there. Okay.

[00:09:10.54] spk_0:
Uh,

[00:09:20.04] spk_2:
Michael, can we at points then push back when, when it comes time for, for board commitments around fundraising and say, you know, you all agreed to the, to this budget, You took ownership of the budget, You held your hands up and voted well, now it’s time to fund what you all agreed to. Can you, can you sort of give it back to them that way?

[00:09:39.24] spk_0:
Absolute. And it requires one on 1 work with each board member. And for me, that’s the role of the Resource Development Committee. So let’s talk about it. We’ll get to brian’s magic number of, you know, what are you going to do? Well, And uh, yeah,

[00:09:52.62] spk_2:
well, before we get to the fundraising part, I want to, I want to spend time on the engagement part.

[00:09:56.85] spk_0:
Sure.

[00:10:08.64] spk_2:
Let’s not go anarchy economy. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna get this. You talk about a, a culture that creates full engagement. Uh, who’s best for uh, I don’t know who to call on a Socratic method from law school, I don’t know. Uh, but I don’t want to go like ping pong either brian Michael, brian, Michael, death too monotonous. So, you know, who’s, who’s best for talking about creating this culture of engagement at, on

[00:10:26.55] spk_1:
the board. We love

[00:12:29.04] spk_0:
Michael. okay for me, you know, this came out of it, I did a workshop with a number of consultants on helping them learn how to do what I do. And one of the consultants brilliant actually, we’ve got a quote from her and Catherine devoid. Catherine said, you know what you’re talking about, Michael is a board culture and peter Drucker, the management bureau says, you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. What we want to do when I talk about a culture is a culture is a team for me aboard, culture is a team. We see ourselves as a team. We understand we know each other, we’ve spent time with each other and we jointly want to do something. We jointly believe in this in this mission. Okay. And we encourage and support one another. So the culture at base has a system where board members know each other and work together on various kinds of things. Then you have the motivation and then board members can encourage and hold one another accountable for what they’re doing. So the culture starts with making sure that board members know one another personally personally know who they are, who they are and from that you can begin to build a sense of a team, we’re in this together, we’re not separate. It’s a very, it’s a very different notion of what the board is. You know, you and I tony were lawyers, right? So we start okay, this is the fiduciary responsibility. This is the board. This is what they’re supposed to do brian and I are asking the question, yes, we know what they’re supposed to do. How do we make them want to do it? And part of it is the mission, but part of it is their sense of responsibility to each other. Think about a sports team, right? What makes a good sports team? Not a collection of stars, Right? It’s a collection of individuals who don’t want to let one another down. I want to do my best because I’m with you were doing this together. You get the matter

[00:12:45.94] spk_2:
used to the metaphor, Michael of the rowing because you’re a rower and you had the coach boat and rowers have to be working in unison,

[00:13:48.34] spk_0:
right in unison. And there’s a great quote which I use in the book from the boys in the boat, in which the coach tells this roller, right? You know, you’re a good rower. Let me tell you what you need to do to be a great rower to be a great rower, you need to trust every other guy in the boat when you trust everybody else. You will be great. That’s interesting notion, right? Because I know if I know Tony, I know you’re pulling as hard as you can, I’m gonna pull as hard as I can. If I’m not so sure about you, Why do I kill myself. Right? But I know you tony You’re gonna pull with everything you got. And so I’m gonna pull with everything I got. It’s a very simple kind of notion, but to us it’s very, very important. It’s creating the board as a group, not as a collection of separate individuals as a team and they hold one another accountable and they don’t want to let one another down. It’s the experience we’ve all had brian. How do we start

[00:13:49.60] spk_2:
building this trust among board members?

[00:13:59.14] spk_1:
Friend? Well, first we look at the time we, they spend together and how we’re using it. So I always say to people, it’s amazing the percentage of a board members time that is spent in board meetings and the percentage of the board meeting time that is not spent well.

[00:14:15.34] spk_0:
So

[00:16:10.84] spk_1:
if you’re going to have a two hour meeting every other month, that’s 12 hours and, and maybe they’re in a committee meeting once every two months or once every month or something. But almost all the time is spent together in these meetings. And the meetings have so much, uh, reporting, there’s so much happening there, that doesn’t have to happen. Uh, and, and, and so the meetings don’t allow for this team building where, where the board members are grappling with the big issues and wrestling with the future of the organization, uh, how the organization is presented where it fits in a big, important issues and they should be wrestling with those because they’re the board and they have the responsibility for moving this organization ahead, keeping it safe, making sure it’s doing the right thing. And uh, so many board meetings have very little discussion of program presentation of program reporting back from board members of what they’ve seen in the program. And lots of board members rarely even see the program in action. So the board meetings are very report central centric. No one wants to give up their their chairman’s report, their executive directors report this report, that report. And we try to move people towards these consent agendas where all the reports go out in advance are simply approved and you have to read them. You have to read them in advance because you can’t just come to the meeting and expect to have a conversation about them even. And even the action steps should be discussed. You

[00:16:18.84] spk_2:
even suggest in the book that questions about what’s in the consent agenda have to be submitted in advance of the meeting. You can’t come to the meeting with your questions about the previous the previous minutes or or everything or the reports that are in the consent agenda. You got to submit your questions in advance. So we know you’ve read them.

[00:16:30.54] spk_5:
It’s time for a

[00:16:37.44] spk_3:
break turn to communications. You want relationships with journalists than hire former journalists

[00:16:39.92] spk_0:
who know how

[00:17:10.14] spk_3:
to build those relationships, including one of them. One of the partners worked as an editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. But both partners, our former journalists. So they know how to build those relationships. They know when it’s the right time to contact journalists. They know how deadlines work and they can coach you on talking to the journalists once they get you those relationships. So you want the relationships higher folks who used to

[00:17:11.64] spk_5:
do that work,

[00:17:44.54] spk_3:
turn to communications, they’ll get you set up. They have existing relationships that can help you build new relationships with journalists. And where are those existing ones? You’ve heard me regale you with the the litany of media outlets were turned to has relationships. So figure turned to communications, talk to them, turn hyphen two dot c o Your story is their mission

[00:17:48.64] spk_5:
now back to

[00:17:49.72] spk_3:
engaged boards

[00:17:51.11] spk_5:
will fundraise

[00:17:53.94] spk_2:
how many of us has been in board meetings where people, you can see, you see, you see people for the first time, they get there 10 minutes early and they’re poring over their board notebook and you’re just sure that that’s the first time they cracked it open 10 minutes before the meeting. And what’s really, they’re wasting

[00:18:10.46] spk_5:
their time at that point.

[00:18:38.54] spk_1:
And then you get one or two board members who hijack a meeting with questions and they shouldn’t be allowed to, no one gets to hijack a meeting. And if you have this, this structure in place, which is much more about discussion and moving the organization forward, building the team and such, Then there isn’t that time for the small questions. I mean I get driven crazy when budgets are presented and someone goes to one small line item and ask the question. It’s so bad. In many ways. We’re trying to move people away from

[00:19:58.44] spk_0:
that tony There’s another side to this and that’s the role of the executive director in this. Because what we’re urging is that there’ll be substantive questions, for example, on such and such a program. What is the impact of that program and how do we measure that impact? Right. That’s an important engaged, more discussion. Executive directors many say, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don’t want them getting into program. That’s my job. If they start talking about programs, it means they’re trying to manage how I do my my implementation work. Right? And we say we want we want boys to be faced with the real issues, as we say in the book, the good, the bad and the ugly well, executive directors don’t like to do that. They just want to give the board good news put out their report and go home and hope that they don’t bother them. So this partnership takes too right. You’ve got to have an executive director who is willing to engage with the board in these substantive discussions about the future of the organization about the problems that the organization is having about its challenges, not just a good news. So it takes it’s two sided. You can’t do this.

[00:19:59.87] spk_2:
What is the appropriate role for a board member? Board members

[00:22:15.14] spk_0:
around program Michael, for me it’s about impact, it’s not about how you do your program, it’s about what your program is designed to accomplish. And how do you measure what’s the vision, what are you trying to do? How do you measure that impact? I’ve got, you know, I’m on the selection committee for the Awards of Excellence and nonprofit management and one of the things that would look at his program impact. Let me give you one of my favorite examples and that’s the board involved in impact. Right? Um you know, I’m a rower. So this is it’s a rolling story. Okay, so wonderful organization, new york city koro new york no new york works with local high school kids, makes them into competitive rowers, which is really good for their college applications, works with them on college prep stuff and stuff. They were off the wall about the results of their program, 98% of their kids were getting into college. Fantastic. Right. Fantastic. Well. But they had also been collecting data on their kids and one of the things that they saw in their data is that their kids were not doing so great in college. And so the executive director and the board started to look at this data and said, you know, we’re focusing on the wrong end point. Our endpoint should not be college acceptance. Our endpoint, our impact point should be college graduation. So now what do we have to do programmatically to reach that? And we have to put resources, the different kinds of programs and the program to keep track of the kids once they’re in school, bring them back so on and so forth. But it was the board and the executive director looking at the data and looking at the question, what is our goal? What is the impact we’re trying to make? And by doing that, they jointly changed where they were directing resources, some of the staff that they were doing and stuff like that. So that’s an example for me of the board being involved in program, but at the right level at the level of impact and the level of data, not how do you teach? And that’s what executive directors tend to be afraid of. Once they start talking about program then they’re going to start talking about how do I teach you, How do I run my classroom and so on and so forth. And then to the board job

[00:22:26.84] spk_2:
brian, let’s talk a little more about nuts and bolts of

[00:22:29.27] spk_5:
meetings.

[00:22:57.44] spk_2:
If if this is the primary time that the board is spending together, whether it’s committee meetings or or full board meetings. Uh in fact, I’m imagining you two would advocate for social time for the board as well. But so we can, you know, we’ll get to the social part, let’s let’s talk more about some nuts and bolts meetings were trying to build a team, we’re trying to build trust. We want to focus on the right things. What, what more advice they have around meeting structure.

[00:24:32.74] spk_1:
Well, first of all, the agenda needs to be developed jointly by the executive director and board leadership. Sometimes that’s just the chair, sometimes that’s the entire executive committee and it needs to be developed in advance and everyone needs to know their role and be prepared, not just wing it. Uh, so that’s, that’s the first piece. I often hear boards talking about one hour meetings. Now this idea of making meetings very efficient and it reminds me of this issue with government and people want small government. It’s really better government that you want, right? You don’t want to waste the time. It’s not that you’ve got to make it smaller, but it needs to work. Right? And I think an hour is not enough time. I think an hour and a half to two hours gives you uh, the flexibility to dig into a topic. Uh, you have to have some sort of program presentation every time there’s, there’s no substitute for that. The more we connect board members program and give them an opportunity to ask questions about it to learn about it, the stronger their connection will be. So there needs to be programmed presentation, Michael and I prefer that board members are out there, uh, seeing program and are bringing back their own recollections and sharing those with the board. Uh so those those are important. Uh

[00:24:34.34] spk_0:
the

[00:24:55.54] spk_1:
uh we should not have a long executive directors report. We should be asking the executive director just as we ask all the committee chairs to submit their reports in advance. Uh The chair’s report should be very short at the very beginning, very high level, Michael, would you add to that?

[00:25:17.34] spk_0:
Yes, I didn’t do exactly. One is I love to time my agendas. I lay out, you know, we we lay out what’s gonna be and then I put five minutes, 15 minutes, whatever it is and that does a couple of things. No one, it focused the board, it makes us think about where we want big discussion and where we don’t want big discussion. And it also gives the chair of the power to cut things off. So if someone’s going off on a on a rabbit out, you know, at the minute, I know we’ve only got five minutes for this, we have to end discussion now because otherwise they’re not going to get to the I think so, timing the agenda is a big deal. You know, Michael, I’ve

[00:25:41.58] spk_2:
even seen where a board and I’ve seen this in other meetings as

[00:25:45.58] spk_5:
well outside the board

[00:25:46.67] spk_2:
setting, where

[00:25:47.80] spk_5:
there’s a timekeeper

[00:26:09.34] spk_2:
appointed so that the chair can keep the conversation flowing and relevant. And the timekeeper is the one who says, we only have three minutes left for this topic. you know, like mr mr and mrs board chair, there are only three minutes left on this topic, you know, it’s up to you to decide what you want to do, but I’m the timekeeper and I’m letting you know there’s only three minutes left, just another another

[00:27:34.74] spk_0:
enforcer. And it’s an interesting notion, I actually kind of like it he goes back to as you know, I spent a good part of my legal career as a prosecutor, you know, and the notion of good cop, bad cop, right? So so the board chairs the good cop or oh no, I’m not controlling this, right? Someone else is telling us we have to stop, I’d love to let you talk forever, right? Yeah, good. You know, so it’s a good thing. The other thing too is there’s a framework for board discussions which rob Acton is used in his uh in his writings and he’s you know, and he says there are three kinds of questions that boards need to be looking at generative strategic and fiduciary, Okay, generative is where are we going? Why are we doing this? What’s on purpose? Right. Strategic is how do we do it? And fiduciary other details. And you know, part of what happens is so much of board meetings tend to be taken up with fiduciary matters and not enough time on generative and strategic matters. So again, as the as the leadership team is thinking about the agenda, they should be asking, you know, are there questions of that nature, generative and strategic that we need to be thinking about, you know, so it’s the paradigm. Yeah, brian’s got his

[00:28:25.44] spk_1:
hand out and I want to add to that, that when we talk about developing these board meetings, a lot of boards meet, if not every month every other month. And I’ve always felt the more often you meet and it’s not something we talked talked about in the book, but it’s something Michael and I have talked about, the more often you meet, the the more likely it is you’re going to get into more details because less has happened in the two months you get out of the meeting. Everyone has one committee meeting perhaps than your back. And, and I don’t think boards have to meet as a board every two months. I think if they meet quarterly as a board, there’s it’s easier to see the big picture. It gives more time for committee work in between and and that alone could help lessen the focus on the new sha

[00:28:34.84] spk_0:
it’s an interesting question. Um I I go both ways, depending upon the organization and and the size of the board. But one of the things that’s interesting about another question about board meetings is how do we use board meetings to connect board members with one another?

[00:28:49.84] spk_2:
It was going to get to this. I wanted to get to the social side

[00:30:31.44] spk_0:
of this. Great. okay, okay. Yeah. So how do we, well, it’s very it’s really interesting because I think, and I’ve been thinking about this a lot as we emerge from covid, hopefully emerge from covid. Right? And, you know, very often would say, okay, you know, what we’ll do is we’ll have a cocktail party before the board meeting, have some wine and cheese, maybe after the board. Me, it’s interesting, but it’s surprise problematic because what’s likely to happen, what’s likely to happen is that board members will talk to people that they know people that they usually talk to write and they’re going to talk with them about the things that they usually talk about, right, your your your golf game, your your your your your other involvements, whatever things that they have in common they talk about. And what I’ve been trying to think about it, we mentioned in the book is how do we create, how do we structure the interpersonal connection so that it’s deeper. Um, I just did this yesterday. So whatever the most recent thing in my mind always helps. Right? So I retreated, I facilitated a board retreat yesterday, which actually was in person. Um, and but what we did was before the, before the meeting, and this can be done, we assigned pairs of board members. Everybody was in a pair of two and they had an assignment, what they had to do was to interview the other person, find out about them, what they like, what they do, what their passions are, what they care about, what they read, what kind of music they’re kids. They’re this they’re that find out about who they are as a person, and then each one had to then introduce the other at the board meeting. Okay, so this is something to take some time and you can’t do it all the time. But it’s a very interesting way. And I asked him, I said, what was this like you said, this was great. These are really interesting people. I want to work with these people.

[00:30:50.34] spk_2:
There’s no going back to your team. Team building.

[00:31:05.74] spk_0:
Team, yep. So if if we’re if we’re going to try to create opportunity social opportunities, we need to think about what’s the best way to do that to achieve our goals. I’m skeptical.

[00:31:06.89] spk_2:
I’m a little concerned about wine before the

[00:31:09.34] spk_0:
meeting. I get a little too uh a

[00:31:14.07] spk_2:
little too loose lipped maybe. But but I love the idea of introducing someone you don’t know, get you to talk to somebody that’s outside your comfort zone, but ought not be because their fellow board

[00:31:27.74] spk_0:
member. Yeah,

[00:31:53.14] spk_1:
I had a program at one organization where I was uh, where we, we had board members go out after the meeting together and we assigned the groups so that we had a good mix and people would, would meet each other and and they were, the goal was for them to do that twice a year. Uh It’s all about time. Right? But we thought that was important time to spend so that they’d at least go out to dinner with half the board. Some of it depends on the size of your board and what you can accomplish, right? But we didn’t want groups of more than six because we wanted people to be able to talk with each other. So what we might send two groups of six out in different directions.

[00:33:04.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, and it’s interesting. I’ve seen people do very simple things at the beginning of a board meeting uh consultant I worked with, she always starts out every board meeting with a question. So tell me about the kind of music you like. Right, two seconds. Tell me about the most interesting book you’ve read recently and why? It was interesting to you. Right? I mean, two seconds we can do that at a board meeting. It loosens everybody up. It enables people who are introverts to have to say something to get out there and talk. It puts a limit for the extroverts on how much they can talk, Right? But it’s a, you know, so you can do devices like this, recognize it because it’s important, it’s important to recognize the importance of the board culture that unless we have that sense of connection between people, none of this stuff is going to work.

[00:33:11.14] spk_2:
Okay. And now let’s bring it to the, to the book title,

[00:33:13.90] spk_0:
Okay, Will Will fundraise,

[00:33:16.58] spk_2:
shall shall engage board shall fundraise.

[00:33:19.58] spk_0:
How is No, no, no, no. We didn’t use the word shall know. I, I added shall because that’s probably that’s perspective. Okay. Prescriptive, prescriptive, I know,

[00:33:41.74] spk_2:
yes, contract, contract you shall versus well, um, no, the book title is engaged. Boards will fundraise. So how does having better board meetings and board members knowing each other better through these simple social devices? Social methods

[00:33:49.74] spk_5:
improve our fundraising?

[00:36:09.83] spk_1:
Right. Well, as Michael has talked about a fair amount, it creates a team and a sense of joint responsibility. You think that it exists just because they have all joined this same organization, but you can’t just accept that in fact you have to work on it. So, by building this team, this camaraderie by by helping people understand each other. Uh, there is a shared sense of of, of responsibility. Second, by really engaging the board in these discussions and having the board understand the organization at a more nuanced and important level. It is easier for them to talk about the organization to feel comfortable doing it to represent it properly and to do it passionately, which is key to fundraising right? Being an ambassador for the organization. So many board members, uh, say I I don’t know enough about the organization to go out and talk about it. I’m afraid I’m going to say the wrong thing. I don’t know the organization like the executive director does. And one of the steps here is to get board members more comfortable as ambassadors talking about it. Uh, and it’s funny because I always say to board members, you don’t need to know all the details. You don’t have to know every little thing and all the numbers and such. You just have to be passionate and authentic to tell a good story and get people excited about the organization. And it incense goes hand in hand with the board meetings, Right? And if we’re concentrating on Mnuchin the board meetings, then the board members think they need to know the menu. Sha if we stay out of the Mnuchin the board meetings, then the board members can feel okay, this bigger picture is what’s important. So, so we build a sense of responsibility and we build, uh, more of a comfort in talking about the organization. We also build an understanding of why the funds are needed and what they will do, right? It’s not just, we need money. Uh, will you give me money? I love this charity, but this is the impact we’re going to have. They can talk about that. So, okay, so that gives them a basis for going on fundraising

[00:36:48.23] spk_2:
and that’s sort of a perfect transition to getting now to the discussion of engaging the board in the right kind of funding in fundraising. So, you know, listen, you just get, you got to get the book to, to learn more about how to engage your board. Um, they talk about the different duties of care and loyalty and obedience that board members have an, uh, governance. There’s, there’s good talk about governance uh, that you know, belonging in in one place and management, belonging by the other management, by staff, governance by the word. You gotta, you gotta be the book to get more of that detail about engaging.

[00:36:50.13] spk_5:
It’s time for Tony Take two.

[00:37:02.03] spk_3:
Oh, can I tell you how much I love sending podcast pleasantries. Thank you. I’m just grateful that you are a

[00:37:02.21] spk_5:
supporter of the show

[00:37:03.67] spk_3:
listening, whether you sample or you

[00:37:08.63] spk_5:
subscribe however you do it. listen all at once to 12 shows or you are the first one

[00:38:03.82] spk_3:
after the shows get published each monday. The first one clicking Thank you pleasantries to you are over 13,000 podcast listeners in aggregate, but you, you’re the person I’m talking to, I’m talking to you right now. I’m thanking. I thank you and I’m thanking you. That’s passive, isn’t it? I’m thanking you. I thank you. I know that’s active. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I’m glad you’re with us. Glad you’re supporting the show. I’m glad the show brings you value. Otherwise you wouldn’t be hearing me hearing me right now. You want to shut me off years ago. So thanks, thanks for being with me. Thanks for being with nonprofit radio That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more

[00:38:06.37] spk_5:
time for

[00:38:07.82] spk_3:
engaged boards will

[00:38:10.41] spk_5:
fundraise.

[00:38:15.32] spk_2:
So now let’s talk about engaging the boards, you know, specifically in fundraising. Um, you two

[00:38:18.11] spk_5:
have

[00:38:19.12] spk_2:
was, I think six different six things, you know, like make the case identify the resistance. Is that the best way to talk through the engaging the boarding fundraising? Or is there a better

[00:41:15.91] spk_0:
way for me? There’s another way to start it. And that is what brian has been talking about right now is giving the board members the basic tools, Right? Thank you. They know how to tell a story or they’ve got a story to tell them. But one of the things that we look at is the fact that there is discomfort resistance about fundraising. It is not something we do in our normal lives, right? We, we do our jobs, we’re professionals, we don’t go out trying to engage other people in the things that we’re engaged in. Right? So they need help doing that. It’s part of the team. Thing is they want to feel, I want them to feel responsible to one another. But in addition, there has to be some guidance from either from fellow board members are from staff into how to do this. So board member says, okay, I, I know I know these, I know these people, you know, I’m comfortable with and I’m willing to talk about it. I’m a little, I’m uncomfortable asking them for something. They were gonna tell me, no, it’s gonna harm the relationship and stuff like that. So time needs to be spent. Either one on one with board members and within a member of the resource development Committee or is there a member to go through? Okay. Let’s figure out how you do this one with respect to the resistance that you have about it. How do you overcome that resistance? You know, what do you do? So, for example, one of the techniques I told board members is you never want the first conversation you have with somebody about your organization to be a conversation we’re asking for money. That’s the kiss of death. So what you’ve got to get to do is OK, here’s what you got to do over the next few weeks. You are you gonna talk to any friends? Yes, I’m gonna talk to some women. Okay. Here’s what I want you to do in those conversations. Find something that they’re interested in. That allows you to bring up your experience with this organization. You’re not asking for money. You’re not ask them to do anything. You’re just bringing this organization into the conversation. That’s your job. Okay. Now, after you do this, let’s come back and talk about it and tell us what your experience is. Now you can do this with the entire board, right? We’re at a board meeting. Okay, Everybody next week or between now and the next board meeting has to have one of these conversations with a friend come back and report at the next board meeting. Let’s see what we learned? What was difficult? What worked did they ask you questions? What would be the next steps? So they’ve got to both feel responsible for one another. But it also at the same time gets support from one another for doing this incrementally, because this is new to all of us. It’s new because you have

[00:41:31.41] spk_2:
an exercise in the book seemed ideal for a board meeting where you uh, you ask for board members to list their objections to fundraising and then list there a personal experience of either having asked or being asked in the past. And the two don’t do don’t align like the reality cancels out the objections exactly whose idea is that. Is that yours, Michael?

[00:43:10.90] spk_0:
Or that’s that’s me. Yeah, it’s a very simple exercise. You know, I I like to draw upon personal personal experience. I believe that board members got the answers to all these things I’m concerned about. They just haven’t talked about it. My job is to get them to talk about it. So, yeah, they’re going to tell me about I don’t want to fundraise. That’s going to be, this is gonna be that they’re going to hate me, bah bah bah bah bah fine. Okay. Now, let’s talk about what actually happened in your life? Have you ever given money to anybody? Why? What was there about that circumstance that made you comfortable and want to do that? So we take their experience and bring it back work. I just, I’m gonna intercept here and you can cut this out if you want. One of my later readings is I’ve gone back to the Socratic dialogues, Plato’s writings about Socrates because what Socrates believed was that everybody had the answers to all these important questions in their head and his job was just the program and ask the questions to get it out. And I believe, I believe this about boards. Our job is to use their experience, not tell them what they’re doing wrong. Take what they’ve done and learn from it and help them learn from it simple.

[00:43:13.70] spk_2:
You’re right. That that’s worthless. I’m gonna cut that

[00:43:15.63] spk_0:
out. Yeah.

[00:43:19.08] spk_2:
Right.

[00:43:19.58] spk_0:
But yeah. So

[00:44:21.99] spk_1:
you adding to what Michael said, one of the, one of the kickers here is board members having to ask all their friends only to be asked to give gifts in return to the other organizations that you know with pro quo. And I’ve been talking about this for a decade ad nauseam because it is horrible short term transactional fundraising. All transactional. And it’s gotten really bad in our field to our detriment. And everyone gets sort of, uh, the organizations get stuck on this. It’s like, uh, like cocaine, right? And, and, and and can’t move away from it. Well, we need the $50,000. The board raises and like, Okay, well your board is going to hate doing this type of fundraising, they’re not going to be inspired when they leave, all those gifts are going to leave with them and so forth. So you’ve got a short term gain, you’re getting some money in the door. But everything else is wrong. We don’t, I always had people good point

[00:44:25.11] spk_2:
about just the last one you said, I want to just amplify when the board members leave. Those kids are going with them. When I just, I just wanted to amplify that.

[00:44:33.85] spk_1:
When I say that to boards, a light bulb goes off, I say,

[00:44:38.03] spk_0:
I’m not,

[00:45:35.39] spk_1:
if I’m on the board and I leave the board, I’m not going to keep asking just if I could give gifts to all my friends. And what what happens when you have me as a board member, uh, do this is I end up giving money away to organizations I don’t care about just to be nice. And whereas it would be better if I gave all that money into my organization that I love and tell people you give it where you love where you, where you’re excited because then I’ve made a bigger investment in my own organization, have a bigger stake, more of an investor. And if I think I first wrote about this 10 years ago that if I had one wish in the nonprofit world, it would be to stop the quid pro quo fundraising today because it’s a Sisyphean task. It’s just not getting anyone anywhere. It’s keeping them from anything strategic and it and it is burning out the board members. And when board members come to the board often they’re on their first board. They assume that this is the type of fundraising we’re going to ask them to do, which is why they have such resistance.

[00:45:46.89] spk_0:
What do you

[00:45:47.39] spk_2:
want to see in in its place?

[00:48:49.57] spk_1:
What I want to see is the board members to serve as ambassadors and what I call many major gift officers. So let’s look, people look at the big shots, they look at the hospitals in the universities and these massive organizations Because they raise so much money and they’re very visible and they all have what we call major gift staffs. They have a staff whose sole responsibility is to take 150 200 prospects donors and cultivate and solicit them and steward them along. Right. And and those staff For year after year have these people have this portfolio if we want to call it that. And that’s great. But most organizations have a budget under $1 million. Most organizations are lucky if they have one development officer who’s doing everything. Special events, direct mail, grant writing, crowdfunding You name it and maybe has 5% of their time to actually go out and talk to significant individual donors. So what I want rather than this transactional fundraising is for every board member To be a mini major gift officer with four prospects slash donors on their radar screen who they stick with and those may or may not be their own contacts. Many organizations have people who need more attention than they’re getting and they don’t get it because the executive director and our director of development don’t have the time. I’d sooner see the board members taking donors out to coffee calling them and thanking them for gifts, attending cultivation events with them and asking them what they think than being worried about soliciting the gift. I’m much less concerned about board members asking for a gift. They don’t have to ask for a gift as a matter of fact and I only was thinking of this this past week. Major gift officers don’t always ask for the gift. So I was a major gift officer from my alma mater. I was in charge of solicitations in the midwest big gifts. And you know, there were times I asked many and there were times when someone else asked the president, the senior vice president, a volunteer. This idea that just because you’re cultivating and Stewart and someone means you are the Askar, it actually doesn’t even add up with professionals. So I want the board concentrated on this other work, which most of them are willing to do. Oh, I’ll happily call for people and thank them for their gifts. So I’d be happy to take people out and thank them and get to know them better. Ask them if they’ll come with me or send them a personalized update. And this is incredibly important work. If we’re going to build relationships. And the other point I put out, the three of us know the numbers that most, Most of the money, most of the charitable gifts come from individuals, 85, everything. Yeah.

[00:48:56.82] spk_2:
When you had requests, it’s like 88 or so, but it had requested 77 or something like

[00:49:39.47] spk_1:
that. The largest gifts come from people, we know if you look at your own given right and where them and individuals are really loyal. I ask people all the time on boards. This is part of breaking down that resistance. What’s the longest number of consecutive years you’ve contributed to an organization Now for many, it’s our alma mater, right? So I graduated in 84. I’ve been giving to them for 37 years and I’ll give them till I die. And many people do. That could be your church. We give for decades. So we don’t, it’s not about the short term win. It’s about what I call an annuity of gifts over what could be decades. If you bring someone in them, they get excited most of our organizations or institutions that are going going to be doing our work forever. Some are meant to put themselves out of business and resolve some problems. But most nonprofits will be here for 100 200 years assuming the planet is and helping people with medical needs, helping seniors, helping kids get educated, whatever it is, building community and we want people to have a state for a long time. So let’s have board members helped build that state with these individuals

[00:50:38.96] spk_2:
and that that also relieves board members of the, the fear and anxiety of having to be the solicitor. You know, some board members will step up to that. Uh, some will with training but it’s not necessary. You’re saying board members can be building the relationships in all these different ways. May be hosting something in your home with four or 6 couples or something. All these different ways. You

[00:50:42.79] spk_5:
mentioned the thank you,

[00:50:43.66] spk_2:
notes the acting as the ambassador all these ways and then maybe you’re cultivating them for someone else to do

[00:50:50.59] spk_5:
the solicitation.

[00:50:54.56] spk_2:
Maybe maybe the board member is involved in it or maybe not. You know, it doesn’t have to be

[00:51:18.26] spk_1:
right. It goes back to the good cop bad cop, the board members, the good cop and then brings the executive Director of director development and to ask for the gift that’s perfectly legit perfectly legit. I played that role many times as an executive Director Director of Development. Where I asked uh, yeah, where the board member cued it up. But I was the Oscar

[00:51:48.36] spk_2:
right and you’re collaborating in the relationship, the board members reporting back, letting the Ceo no, you know, this is, this is how it went with her baba. You know the ceo is asking, you know, do you feel like it’s maybe it’s the right time for me to ask or for us to ask or is it still too early? Or look, she expressed interest in this particular program. And you know, the board was just talking about expanding that, putting putting more resources to that. This could be a very timely topic for me to bring up at a meeting with her or or the three of us know you’re collaborating around the relationship strategizing about when the best time is to actually do the

[00:52:34.05] spk_0:
solicitation, right? And going back to board meetings for a second. One of the things you want to do with the board meeting is acknowledged. The people that have done this. You know, wow, let me, let me tell you, the executive director says, let me tell you that. You know brian and I brian introduced me to so and so and we had a meeting and you know, we walked away with a check for $5000. Thank you brian, do you do right, celebrate it builds it celebrate the winds and it builds it into the culture. You don’t want to be the only one who never gets thank you. Right.

[00:52:38.45] spk_2:
Let’s talk about the expectations, establishing

[00:52:42.07] spk_5:
expectations around

[00:52:44.45] spk_2:
giving and fundraising for board

[00:52:47.21] spk_1:
minimums. Yes, who wants

[00:52:49.37] spk_2:
to kick that off. Let’s spend a little time with that. Yeah brian

[00:55:36.44] spk_1:
can I? Because I’m, I have, I’m rabbit about this one actually to, um, I cannot stand minimums and given gats I give or gets Excuse me. I believe that everyone should do their best on both. Besides everyone should give a personally significant gift as an investor in this organization and do their best at fundraising. And uh, without going into great detail, what I see time and again, there’s a minimum gift ends up being a ceiling out of floor. You think everyone’s going, ok, everyone’s gonna give at least this. But most people then give that, it feels like dues. You set the, the amount low so that most people can reach it, you still have some who can’t. And, and it’s been proven again and again, that, uh, that minimum gifts do not generate the largest gifts, minimum gift requirements don’t help. And people say, well, how do board members know what to do? And I said, well from the very beginning, and we talk about a job prospectus in the job description, You tell prospective board members, here’s the range of gifts we have board members giving anywhere from $500 to $5000 depending on their capacity. We ask people to do something very significant given the who they are and what they can do generally right. We want everyone to feel that they’ve made a gift they thought about that’s important to them. Some people ask for one of the top three gifts you give anywhere, which is a very concrete way to put it in and, and works. So on the gift front, you give people guidelines. And here’s, here’s an interesting thing you actually asked board members for a gift. I’m amazed. We’ve never best fundraising, best practice fundraising. We ask our major gift donors for an exact amount, Tony would you consider a gift of $10,000, etc? And yet we let our board members just give whatever they want to give. Why would we do that? I really push asking every board member for a specific amount that, that, that is personally significant to them. Makes them think about what’s significant And on the get side, I really believe it should be the best of your ability because if we say you’ve got to give or get 5000 a board member with a lot of capacity can just give the whole thing and not do any work or swap gifts with friends. And yet and the board member with less capacity is left, um, doing the hard work and that doesn’t make for a team. Everyone needs to do the hard work together.

[00:56:58.63] spk_0:
There’s a couple of, I mean I’ve learned this from brian’s and that’s my, become my mantra, working with working with boards about personally significant gifts and there’s a couple of, there’s another consideration now, especially with, with our desire to diversify our boards, polls, we may be reaching into populations that don’t have access to resource, but they’re important in terms of perspectives that they bring to our deliberations. And so having this as the standard personally significant gift for everybody. It’s equal. We’re all equal. We’re all giving the best we can. Another part of that. And I really like what brian says about, you know, asking our board members, it’s a negotiation, right? It’s not a no, I I need $1000 from you. And that’s what you gotta do because you’re a board member. It’s what I, you know, let me, let me tell you what I give. Okay, Okay. And now here’s what I think might be reasonable for you. Let’s talk about it. Okay. Is it is that a reasonable gift for you? It’s not demanding its opening a conversation as, as the possibilities. So, you know, I mean, I’ve done some capital fundraising and very often we ended up in a negotiation. You know, I asked, I went in asking for a certain amount, which I thought that person could give or we thought that that person could give when I put that number on the table and kept my mouth shut for a few minutes. You know, so they came back and they said, well, you know, that’s a little, okay. Let’s talk about it then.

[00:57:20.23] spk_2:
Support. Support training. It could be training could be staff, support for the, for the board that the, that the, uh, the employees, the staff are, are obligated to give either their own or through a consultant. What kind of, what kind of board, what kind of support do we need to give our board members around fundraising?

[00:57:41.83] spk_0:
Yeah, there are two,

[01:00:39.01] spk_1:
two pieces here. The first gets back to something, Michael said a long time ago about staff and the need for staff support in terms of the board meetings and the board members being involved, board members will only help with the fundraising. To the extent they have staff support. They’re always gonna need staff guidance materials, someone to bounce ideas off of and, and such staff need to be managing this, reminding board members of, uh, their next action step with a certain donor, um, providing materials and so forth. So, staff have to keep the tracker, as I call it this, even if it’s an Excel spreadsheet with a list of everyone and who does what and, and, and, and constantly move the process forward. But probably the most important thing is training because as Michael noted, board members come with very little experience and a lot of trepidation and the more training they can get, the more comfortable, they will be the more comfortable and effective. I always ask when I do a training, how many of you have ever been asked for a gift, The way we’re talking about it. How many times has someone said, Michael would you consider sitting down with me so I can ask you for a special gift, our organization. The truth of the matter is with all the asking out there with all the fundraising in every form. Very few people end up in these conversations. It’s the big, big, big, big donors. Right? And, and so many board members have never been on the other side of the equation and really have no idea what one of these meetings about. They assume you just go in and you ask for money. You just say, you know, will you give this? They, there’s no way for them to know because they haven’t experienced it themselves. So we need to teach them what it is. Uh, and that it’s all about the relationship, which definitely takes some of the pressure off. It’s always about the relationship and it is never about the gift to me. That is the number one rule in fundraising and I will leave money on the table time and again. I just, I just coach someone an hour before this conversation who’s the head fund raiser for a program within the school because a donor um, offered up an amount before being asked for an amount and it’s a significant amount and a big step forward. And the question becomes, do I go back, do I negotiate? And some of this is happening by email and I said in knowing the stoner, I said, you take the wind, it’s about the relationship. This is much, this is big for you. There’s always next year, the year after and so forth. So teaching board members, it’s about the relationship, not the gift, whatever happens this year, that’s okay. We’re building the relationship helps them feel more comfortable because they think they’ve got to go in and come out with whatever you all were hoping for. You know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s uh, and we’re guilty of building this mindset. We as a culture.

[01:03:05.00] spk_0:
The other side of it is that there are some very, for me very simple things that boards can learn how to do to build a relationship. For example, one of one of the things I very often do with a board retreat, simple exercise or on fundraising, I told people, look, you’re now going to somebody, you’re sitting in somebody else’s fundraising dinner and there’s somebody sitting next to you. Okay, So you want to have a conversation with the person sitting next to you, get to know them. So here’s your job. You’ve got to ask that person questions about what they’re interested in their lives and so on and so forth. And you’re looking for some place in them that connects with your organization. Then when you find that place, then you can introduce your organization, but that’s your job and we, you know, we pair up and people around, you know, around the room, sit down and try to have these conversations and realize that they can, because these the way in which we want to build relationships is a technique and it’s something we need to practice and become comfortable with. You know, people are not used to really interestingly asking questions. We all tell people things about ourselves, but we don’t ask them questions about themselves. So I mean that’s one of the pieces of support, right? Doing those kinds of things, telling stories quick, you all went to visit a program, tell me something that happened in that program that you saw that really was important to you that inspired you. That made you think about the value of this organization. Tell me the story. Well, people don’t know how to tell stories. They have to learn how to tell stories. It’s it’s but it’s a very simple, you know, these are not complicated techniques, but it’s all part of becoming comfortable in what brian is talking about in this ambassador role, relationship building a relationship relationship. I love the relationship,

[01:03:13.80] spk_2:
not the gift. Like that, brian. All right, we’re gonna leave it, we’re gonna leave it there with the, with the support

[01:03:14.55] spk_5:
idea. You

[01:03:28.60] spk_2:
got to support your board members, Michael Davidson, consultant and coach. He’s at board coach dot com. Ryan saber asking matters, asking matters dot com And he’s at brian Saber, Michael brian thanks very much. Terrific.

[01:03:32.80] spk_0:
Thank you. It was a pleasure tony great questions. Thank you. My

[01:03:36.34] spk_2:
pleasure. I’m just, I’m just trying to keep things going. Look book and

[01:03:40.96] spk_0:
the book, the book, I’m it’s

[01:03:42.61] spk_2:
Michael and bryan, who cares about Michael, Bryant’s the book you want? The book is,

[01:03:46.72] spk_0:
the

[01:03:49.80] spk_2:
book is the book is engaged, boards will fundraise how good governance inspires them. It comes out this week, this week of october

[01:03:58.74] spk_0:
18th. Yes,

[01:04:00.34] spk_2:
it’s not a long book, but it is long on value as you can tell from this outstanding conversation, lots of value in the book

[01:04:08.69] spk_5:
next week.

[01:04:09.65] spk_3:
Deborah Kaplan pa

[01:04:13.29] spk_5:
loves new book. The time for

[01:04:14.99] spk_3:
endowment building is

[01:04:17.45] spk_0:
now

[01:04:19.49] spk_5:
also very emphatic,

[01:04:20.77] spk_3:
just like uh just

[01:04:22.23] spk_5:
like engaged boards will fundraise

[01:04:39.79] spk_2:
if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two

[01:04:40.92] spk_5:
dot c o

[01:04:42.89] spk_2:
Our creative producer

[01:05:13.09] spk_4:
is Claire Amirov shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that information scotty You with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for October 11, 2021: Next Year’s Plan For Your Year-End Donors

My Guest:

Poonam Prasad: Next Year’s Plan For Your Year-End Donors

We’re in the 4th quarter and you’re expecting a lot of fundraising revenue. You want those donors with you next year and beyond. Poonam Prasad has the strategies to make that happen. She’s president of Prasad Consulting & Research.

 

 

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Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.

 

We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

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[00:00:10.84] spk_4:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:41.44] spk_1:
Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of Ruba malaria if you made me hot with the idea that you missed this week’s show next year’s plan for your year end donors. We’re in the fourth quarter and you’re expecting a lot of fundraising revenue. You want those donors with you next year and beyond. non Prasad has the strategies to make that happen. She’s president of Prasad consulting and research on tony state too planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s a pleasure to welcome to the show for the first time Hunan Prasad. She is founder and president of Prasad consulting and research, providing board and staff training, audit, major gift capital campaign and publication services to non profits. She’s on the executive committee of the Giving institute, leading consultants to nonprofits before nonprofit work. She was an investigative reporter and worked in journalism, advertising and pr in India south Korea Hong kong the West Indies and the U. S. Her company is at Prasad consulting dot com and she’s at prasad c Welcome to the show. Prasad opponent. Prasad. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:53.44] spk_0:
Thank you Tony. It’s a pleasure to be with you.

[00:02:02.54] spk_1:
My pleasure to have you. Thank you. There’s so many so many facades. I guys called um facade instead of being um so you’re in you’re in new york city, right? You’re coming

[00:02:05.65] spk_0:
to us from new york? Yes. Coming to you from downtown Manhattan

[00:02:09.30] spk_1:
downtown. What neighborhood?

[00:02:11.54] spk_0:
Oh, east mid down. Sorry.

[00:02:13.84] spk_1:
Oh, now you moved in downtown anymore.

[00:02:16.17] spk_0:
Yes. Now we moved, we moved recently near Grand Central Station.

[00:02:20.74] spk_1:
Okay. And your Grand Central. And how about your home? Where where, where is your home?

[00:02:24.55] spk_0:
Also in midtown,

[00:02:26.08] spk_1:
midtown, midtown east. Also,

[00:02:28.39] spk_0:
midtown east. Also. Okay,

[00:03:06.04] spk_1:
East side of new york city. For your business and your home. Wonderful. So we’re talking about this year’s fourth quarter donors and how we want to treat them and work with them So that we hold on to them into 2022 and beyond. So just, you know, because we know the donor attrition is a big problem. It’s a appalling somewhere around 75% annual donor attrition rate. What do you see? You know, generally that, uh, nonprofits could do better about holding on to their year end donors

[00:06:17.64] spk_0:
actually, tony uh, the attrition rate or the leaky bucket is almost, uh, from three donors, you get down to 1.5 or from two donors, you could be down to one next year. So for all the efforts that you’re putting in to bringing these donors in. If you think about, you know, we were a research firm. So we often get people asking us, can you find me new donors? Can you find me new donors? I’m sure we can find them new donors. But the point is, once they’ve got them in, they have spent so much effort and time and money on getting them in. And then if you don’t steward them, if you don’t get to know them and you don’t work with them, then you’re going to lose them by next year. Um, and that’s the tragedy of uh, fundraising. You know, that is really very inefficient. So I suggest only just two little tips, the donors that you get in at the end of the year. There are only two things you need to do with them. one is get to know them. And then the 2nd 1 help them to get to know you. So show them that you are doing the right thing with their money. You know, the impact report reporting, telling them what you did with their money and how you could not have done it without their money. And the second thing learn about them. You know, if you were trying to become friends with someone, you went to a party and you met somebody and you said, you know, this was a really interesting person. Uh, they came to my birthday party, they gave me a present. I would like to be more friends with them. Would you not write them or thank you not? Would you not invite them to a body afterwards. Would you not say it? Let me have coffee with you. These are simple things that we do in everyday life. But then when you’re the executive director of a of a charity, a little social service charity, you said, I don’t like to do fundraising? Well, it’s not it’s human relations. These are people who gave you something they didn’t have to give you. They could have bought a boat, they could have bought a car, they could have bought a dress, they could have bought a rug for their living room. No, they gave that money to you. Shouldn’t you be grateful? Don’t we tell our Children you get a thank you gift for Aunt Mabel. You never met Aunt Mabel writer. Thank you. Not sit down here and right, right, and a thank you note, she sent you this gift. It’s simple. It’s it’s it’s not it’s not it doesn’t even have to be about fundraising. Yes. A lot of small agencies don’t have fundraisers, don’t have dedicated development people, but this is not even about development, This is about standard manners, you know, standard courtesies, things that we grew up with. But when it becomes, oh my goodness, it’s my donors. I don’t like doing this. I’m afraid to ask them for more. You know, just thank them first before you think about asking them for more, you know, and don’t wait too long to figure it out. You know, have the plan now, you’re getting the money in 40% of the money is going to come between October and November and December, that means it’s coming in now, October. You know, and in December you’re gonna get 20% of your money. So what is your plan for January? What is it that you’re gonna do?

[00:07:17.04] spk_1:
Okay, well, we’re gonna we’re gonna get there, we’re gonna get there. Hold on. Um So you made a couple of things, points that I want to amplify about it. Just being a matter of common courtesy in in a lot of respects, and it being about relationship building. All right. So, you’ve got, you know, in in in corporate marketing, there’s the idea of get a finger grab a hand. You know, someone walked into a Starbucks, they bought a coffee. Well, Starbucks doesn’t only sell coffee. They sell music, they sell food, they sell coffee accessories, they sell a tire, right? But not to mention they sell an environment. Uh, so I think there’s a lot we can learn from that. You know, get a finger grab a hand. So someone, let’s let’s take the donor that’s made their first gift, Right? Because that’s the tougher one. That’s the that’s the easiest one to lose

[00:07:20.79] spk_0:
that 1st 1st. That’s the that’s the most fragile relationship,

[00:07:56.14] spk_1:
right? So, we’re gonna start with that. I’m giving you the toughest hypothetical, right? So, all right. So we’ve got a bunch of first time donors, we had a very successful fourth quarter in donor acquisition. We brought in a good number. What however good number is defined by My listeners. That could be 12. It could be 1200. It could be 12,000. We’ve got a bunch of new first time donors. You started to allude to, you know, what’s your plan? What’s your plan for january? What’s your first recommendation for? What we’re gonna do with this, this nice rich cadre of first time donors?

[00:07:59.40] spk_0:
Well, my first recommendation is of course they didn’t within 48 hours to get a tax

[00:08:03.07] spk_1:
receipt. If it’s

[00:08:04.11] spk_0:
Over a certain amount that you need to give them a tax two

[00:08:06.41] spk_1:
$100, requires a receipt. How about your about just a simple acknowledgment letter

[00:08:20.04] spk_0:
Also, you start then you start with the next. So then depending on how much money they got They sent you, you need to figure out who they are. If it’s over $1,000, you need to send it to somebody to research somebody in your office or somebody you outsource it to. You need to figure out who this donor is and why they gave to you.

[00:08:34.84] spk_1:
Well, all right. But for some non profits that could be, if it’s over $100,.

[00:09:16.54] spk_0:
Yes. If it’s over $100, you might wait till January and take the whole batch and screen them. So we are now screening a batch for a social service agency in Connecticut and we’re screening uh $690 that gave From $20 up in the last two years now. It’s late that we’re doing it now. But you know, it’s better than nothing. So ISIS suggests that, you know, we have another client that we’re doing over the pandemic. They said they had 274 new donors who gave over $500. And we’re looking for people within that Group within that cohort who would give maybe $10,000. They actually have people, we just finished that project and they actually have people who would give them, not just $10,000, but $100,000.

[00:09:46.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. All right. Let’s take a step at a time. So We’re sending our acknowledgment within within 48 hours. And if the tax receipt is required, then you might incorporate that into your acknowledgement or you might send something separate. Alright. We’re saying thank you fast. Now, is there is there nothing else between, you know, suppose that’s in october or november, donor. Nothing else between that and screening them in january. Don’t we want to we want to be involved with

[00:10:41.94] spk_0:
them. Yes. Yes. So then you start then you start with the seven. Thank you. Then you start with the seven. Thank you because this person has given you a a donation and depending on their level of giving and the effort you have to put in. You start with sending them your annual report, your newsletter. Welcome email. Some some agencies have a three series of welcome emails. And so you do that. Maybe you send them a donor survey which they respond to and tell you what aspect of their uh of your program they are interested in. That will help you a lot uh to know you know, we have a social service agency. They do senior care, they do middle school education, they do uh other kinds of adoption. So now which program is that person interested in? They can tell you or you can find out given are based on when you do the screening and when you do the research, you will see what else they’re giving to. And that will give you a clue as to which part of your program they care about.

[00:11:03.94] spk_1:
All right, well, you also have a clue based on what they gave to. Yes.

[00:11:04.45] spk_0:
Yes. If if

[00:11:05.88] spk_1:
if you know a lot of people don’t designate a gift. I agree. I agree with you. But if they designate their gift to a particular program, then you know where their affinity is.

[00:11:14.69] spk_0:
Yes. And you know that in the database right away. Of course.

[00:11:33.44] spk_1:
Absolutely. Yes. It’s important to preserve what people give to. Just like. It’s important to preserve the donors survey results that you suggest? Absolutely. Okay. What what might be. What what might we be soliciting uh information about in that in that follow up donor survey? You want to get to know folks better

[00:12:47.54] spk_0:
which aspect of the program they care about how they heard of your agency. You know uh Would they ever would they attend a webinar? If if you had one would they be willing to travel and come and see your facility? Uh You know is there a particular staff person that you know they have met with or or they know about you know each each agency is different. So you would ask different questions based on what you want to know about them. Uh what would help you? So those would be for instance with this where there are three different uh we have an irish theater company. Well they would want to know which which playwright you know with their favorite if you’re a music or something you might want to know which music they care about. If you’re a medical agency might we used to send out service and say which disease do you want to know more about? So we can send you newsletters about that disease. So you know based on your interest based on your work. You ask the right questions.

[00:12:49.08] spk_1:
Okay. And you also mentioned the seven. Thank you.

[00:12:52.23] spk_0:
Yes

[00:12:53.93] spk_1:
I say a little more about your seven. Thank

[00:15:37.44] spk_0:
you. This is this is my mantra that I have been teaching. You know I’ve been teaching at N. Y. U. And also at Columbia and I teach workshops all the time. And this is one of my mantra that I teach. And now my students have started deciding it back to me. So and it seems like oh my God you’re going to say thank you thank you thank you. It’s not that you have to be creative. So you might send them the tax receipt which is the first thank you. And then depending on after that you might have uh the executive director writer. Thank you. You might have the development director writer. Thank you. You might have the program director. We have a little archaeological excavation. You know there are two main archaeologists, archaeologists involved with it. and depending on which one uh is uh you know closest to that person who send the gift. We’ll have them right appears on the on the thank you note which we draw for them for some people. I might call them and say you know because I’m in new york city I might call them to say thank you. I have received your gift. It’ll take a while for us to process it. But in the meantime I want you to know that your check was received and we’re so grateful and the excavation will start on such and such a date and we’ll send you pictures and this is our facebook page and you know communicate with them. Uh one of my friends uh sent her son to a boarding school and she sent a little gift where she’d been sending it to the local school all the time. But now because it was a boarding school, the parents suddenly she got a call from my parents really wanted, why is the parent calling me when she said, you know, I know you sent a gift and I wanted to tell you thanks from the school. But also I want to tell you that I was yesterday at the tennis match in which your son played and my son is captain of the team and he played so well and we were so proud of my goodness, do you think that lady is not going to give another gift after that? I mean it’s just brilliant and it wasn’t even a staff member. It was a volunteer. I have I have another agency this year. There was a crisis and people ask me and I happened to have insight into that particular problem. They said what should we give to? I said, oh, this is a great agency. I’ve been, you know involved with them as a volunteer for a long time. You know, they use the money very well. They’re doing really great work. They sent the money. I sent the money. None of us have ever gotten a thank you note. Now they’re doing the work. They have social media, they have facebook, they have Lincoln they have a blast. They’re sending us the, all the information about what they’re doing and we are so happy. They’re doing it. But they didn’t do God one Thank You. And one of the donors sent it from a donor advised fund. He’s got no thank you, let alone seven.

[00:15:43.44] spk_1:
It’s time for a break.

[00:16:43.64] spk_2:
Turn to communications. I’m on their email list and they said something this week. That’s very interesting. They talk about seeing good news stories on social media, uh, specifically linked in, in this case and the uh, frequent lament that people will, will comment that you’ll never find stories like this in the mainstream media. In fact turned two points out that many, many of these good news stories originated in mainstream media. Um, you know, some are, we’re in newspapers, others might have gotten exposure from national outlets like the new york times or CNN, or one of the major networks. But the point is a lot of these stories originate and in some mainstream media and then make their way to social media. So what’s that mean for you? It means there are a

[00:16:44.64] spk_3:
lot of journalists

[00:16:58.94] spk_2:
that are interested in good news stories that maybe just generate a laugh or a smile or it’s, it’s um, it’s more of a story about work that a nonprofit has done.

[00:17:02.04] spk_3:
So the journalists

[00:17:03.33] spk_1:
are out there.

[00:17:04.28] spk_2:
They are hungry for these good news stories. If

[00:17:06.79] spk_3:
you’ve got something

[00:17:07.85] spk_2:
like that.

[00:17:09.74] spk_1:
Look internally,

[00:17:10.74] spk_3:
if you’ve got some good news

[00:17:27.94] spk_2:
turn to, can help you get it noticed right, help you craft that good news story and then get it exposed in all the outlets you’ve heard me talk about. So they finish up this on this. I’m choking up. That’s, that’s how that’s how, uh, much this touches me,

[00:17:33.04] spk_3:
they finish up there

[00:17:58.64] spk_2:
their email by saying there are lots of journalists out there that are ready to give good news stories a look despite what you may read on linkedin. So, you know, they’ve got their eyes on the media market. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. Now back to next year’s plan for your year end donors.

[00:19:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, that’s that is a very bad practice To have gone. Well, you know, some folks say 24 hours, you’re, you’re being more generous 48 hours, that’s still fine. But If it goes much longer than that and you’re, you’re saying it’s been months or whatever, you know, that, uh, to not acknowledge every single gift, I don’t care if these are $3 gifts. I don’t care if the dollar and a half. It still deserves an acknowledgement. You just never know. Someone might be testing you with a small dollar amount and really who gives a dollar and a half anyway, so that, that’s, you know, that’s a hyperbolic on the low end, right? Uh, but if someone gives you $5, they might be testing you, they might have capacity to give 5000 or 50,000. They may have capacity. They may feel whether they can’t or or they know they can, but they’re they’re trying you out every gift deserves acknowledgement. So when you were just describing that’s very poor practice.

[00:19:08.04] spk_0:
Well, unfortunately, the excuse is that they are because they’re doing such good work. They are understaffed and their non profit. So they don’t have capacity.

[00:19:34.24] spk_1:
That doesn’t, that doesn’t sell. That’s a that’s a nonstarter. You need to invest in your organizations to the extent that you can thank people. Thanking people is not overhead, It’s not worthless. It’s it’s an administrative investment. It’s not an expensive, it’s it’s an investment in the relationships that you’re talking about. You mentioned earlier, you know, absolutely relationship building, if that’s an investment thanking

[00:21:02.24] spk_0:
people. Absolutely, and and that’s how one needs to think about it. And and you know, the board members, the staff, the executive director, everybody needs to be aware that how important this is. Now, another thing that people ask us a lot is we got a gift from a donor advised fund and we don’t have any access to the donor. So we don’t know how to thank them and we want to know who they are, what they are and you know, they’re freaking every sort of possible way of trying to google it to trying to get us to do it. This is so simple. This these these two donors who gave to this charity that gave through the donor advised fund that I know about, they are friends of the board members if they put a list in front of the board members and said, you know, we got a gift from. So and so family fund and unfortunately we don’t know how to thank them. They said that maybe they sent a thank you note to the to the donor advised fund agency. Somebody would speak up or you look in your database and say, oh, they came to the gala. This is the same person who came to the gala and sat at, you know, board member access table. So he’s gonna know this person. So let’s tell him that your friend gave us a gift even though there was no gala, even though there was just a virtual gala and he still gave us a gift. He didn’t even sit at your table.

[00:21:24.64] spk_1:
All right. So those, right. Those are, those are good ideas. But there is frustration among, among nonprofits getting donor advised fund gifts when you know, okay, so you’re right, try try your board query your database. But there are gifts that come that sometimes that folks can’t identify and that I know that is a frustration among nonprofits.

[00:21:56.24] spk_0:
Yes. But you know, more and more people have who have set up donor advised funds want people to know who is giving. It’s, it’s less and less about being anonymous. Now, people are going back to setting up foundations or entities from which they can give, uh, and be known and they want that because they want to add their credibility to the gift. They want people to know that a person whom they know give to this charity because it helps the charity.

[00:22:28.74] spk_1:
It does. Right. But there are, there are donors who would not agree with you. But I do, I agree. But there are always some donors that are going to remain anonymous. And I mean, I’ve always thought, you know, focus on the donors who you can identify. I understand the frustration for those. You cannot, they may come to you through a facebook fundraising event and facebook doesn’t share the information. They might come to you from a donor advised fund. That is not a name that you can track, uh, focus on the folks that you can thank and for the donor advised fund. Of course we should be sending a letter to the fund. Right, thanking asking them to forward the letter onto the anonymous donors.

[00:23:12.94] spk_0:
Exactly. And they would, I’m sure the same donor, the same donor, the friend of mine that gave because I said, oh, this is a good charity could give to them. It’s also sent to another charity in the same space. And he got his seven. Thank you. He actually told me I got seven. Thank you. So, he said, you know, the development director wrote, the executive director wrote the board member wrote, they sent him an annual report. You know, they invited him to an event. They sent him different things. You know, I mean reports, personalized. Yeah. All right. I mean, you could take a little video and send it to the person, you know, that you can do

[00:24:18.44] spk_1:
personalized video is a terrific idea. Um, I’ll give a shout out to a company that’s not expensive. Bond euro bongiorno dot com, bong boro easy personalized videos. You shoot a one minute video and you say thank you. And you can, you can be walking, you can have any background you want to know the production value is not the concern, sincerity, The genuineness. That’s the concern. And you do it in a 45 seconds or one minute video. You sent it right back to the right to the person. You can do it immediately. You could do it the next day. So, and Bongiorno is by no means the only personalized video platform out there. But Um, yeah, you’re right. Personalized video is a good one. all right. So you mentioned these screenings. So now we’re now we’re a little longer on now. We’re into January. Right? We’ve done our activities for the fourth quarter. Now we’re conveying into January. What kind of information uh, you’re looking for in a, in a screening. Does it have to be a commercial screening? You know, what are we,

[00:25:09.24] spk_0:
what are we looking at? You could, you could do research or you could just go for a screening depending on the number of donors. If you have seven donors, you know, you just give them to somebody to research who has tools like screening tools and research tools and ask them to do it for you and that’s all you need, You don’t need a sophisticated screening. But if you have 670 donors or something that I knew and they were given maybe over $20 or $50, then you certainly should have a screening down. But don’t try to do it yourself because then when you get it back, you have this information and you have no idea what to do with it because there are mismatches in the screening. It’s an automated process. There are mismatches in the screening. You know, there’ll be a lot of tony-martignetti is and Putin presides in there and you have to make

[00:25:30.54] spk_1:
sure that I don’t know if there are such good examples who not pursued and tony-martignetti are not very common names, but there’ll be a lot of there’ll be a lot of smith’s and uh smiths and joneses et cetera. Okay.

[00:25:32.68] spk_0:
Yes. And and you know you being me is how many food and presents? All

[00:25:39.12] spk_1:
right. There aren’t too many tony-martignetti is I would be surprised.

[00:25:50.84] spk_0:
Okay. In fact it’s more confusing when there are only two or three because then you really begin to think this is your person and then it turns out it’s not your person.

[00:25:53.14] spk_1:
Right? Okay. So you’re you’re you’re caution against doing it on your own or I mean if you’re going to do it on your own. You said if you had just seven or so. You know, you’re not gonna hire an agency for that. But you just, the point is you need to be careful that you’ve got the right person

[00:26:08.50] spk_0:
right? Like checking,

[00:26:10.24] spk_1:
check middle initials, check addresses, check whatever you do know against what you found to make sure you’re, you’re dealing with the right person.

[00:27:04.64] spk_0:
Well, you can, you can outsource, you know, a little bit of work every month with somebody with some research firm. We do that all the time. Uh, you know, it’s not that we do it all, you know, in one go and finish. You know, we have like an arrangement where if somebody new comes in, gives more than $1000 get more than $500. Whatever matters to them, they send it over to us and we screen them, research them, give them back information on that person. Okay. Okay. But it’s geared to small agencies. It’s geared to small agencies so that, you know, because otherwise what happens is the Harvard University’s and the big, big who have seven researchers get all the big donors because they have the tools and they have the staff. So you, you do need to implement some of the techniques that the top fundraising organizations you

[00:27:13.64] spk_1:
mentioned, you mentioned before screening and research tools there, are there some out there that you can suggest that folks can use

[00:28:02.94] spk_0:
on their own. Yes. You could, you could make a substitution with with something like ivy or donor search and try to do some work on your own. You could look at the, you could look at the linkedin profile of the person. If you know, you know, I mean small simple things. You could google them of course. Uh small things that you know, you could look at if you know where they work. You could look at the bio most law firms have the lawyers while on on the website many firms have the, you know, employees, bio senior employees bio doctors. There are free sites for looking at doctors to see what kind of specialty does the doctor have. Is it something that’s relevant to my cause?

[00:28:05.45] spk_1:
Yeah. Good. Alright, right. If you can find the person’s company firm that they work for or practice. Okay. And you mentioned I wave and donor search.

[00:28:31.94] spk_0:
Yes. These are subscription services. So you have to pay a little bit uh, you know, usually it’s in your subscription and you can check out your donors through that. And the aggregate information of other gifts that the organization has received. Other organizations have received from the same donor. Okay. Right. Right.

[00:28:37.14] spk_1:
Other charities that the person is given to us. So then you start to get a little profile of person. All right. So you can have

[00:29:03.54] spk_0:
to be careful because of the person your donor is in new york and the person, a person with the same name is giving in texas, you have to be careful to see why would my donor given texas? Maybe it’s another person or maybe he went to school in texas and he is giving in texas. Or he’s giving to a senior center in texas because my daughter has a mother there who’s in that home. So you know you need to be a bit intelligent about.

[00:29:30.84] spk_1:
Yeah right with that. With that caution you gotta you gotta that caveat. You gotta be uh certain that you’re dealing with the right person. Otherwise you’re going down you’re gonna start talking to the person about their gifts to texas. And they’re going to say I don’t know what you’re talking about and then then you’re gonna be embarrassed. So all right. All right. Um Okay so screening is a possibility. Good. You can engage your company. You can do some on your own. What what what what are we gonna do from what we learned from our screening now? What?

[00:31:54.44] spk_0:
So there’s the thing I mean you know we do research where research for and we send research to our clients. The question is how do you read this research? What does it mean to you? What what is the interpretation you get out of a research report on? Suppose we write a little bio on this person. So what what what what is the strategy that comes out of this research. So the first thing that indicates higher giving is age. So anyone over the age of 60 or 65 has more disposable income. They paid their mortgage, they probably paid their children’s college education. They’re beginning to think about their own, you know, legacy and they’re beginning to give more generously. So 60, you have a better chance of getting a higher upgrading their gifts before that. People are still on that little hamster wheel, you know, increasing their mortgage, buying a little bigger house, sending their Children to a better school. You know, getting them into college, they just often do not have time unless they are very community minded and they might give to their local community or their college or things like that. But but they become more Uh philanthropic, more generous generally after the age of 16. Now, there are always exceptions. The other thing there are a lot of people look for as you know, being in plan giving is people without Children, because people without Children do not have that usual legacy is, oh, I’m leaving good Children into the world. Yeah, that’s great. But when you don’t have Children, you have to really think, what is it that I am leaving? What footprint am I living in this world that I lived and who benefited because I lived And those people take a little more care and thought and and usually we’ll try to make an impact in a different way and you can help them do that and make them happy. And you know, there there’s a lot of studies that say people who give are happier people who give actually benefit more from their gifts than the person receiving. So it’s at that age, particularly when you have that reflective time for reflection that we see better gifts.

[00:32:02.64] spk_1:
It’s time for tony steak too

[00:32:59.84] spk_2:
planned giving accelerator. I’m starting the promotion again this time for the January 2022 class, I have accelerated the accelerator. It’s no longer a 12-month course. It is now a six-month course. I will teach you step by step, Everything that was in the 12 month course, but we’re gonna, we’re gonna step it up six month course. I’ll teach you everything you need to know about starting your planned giving program and you’re not only learning from me, you’re learning from your peers, folks who are similarly situated, they’ve got the same frustrations, they’ve got the same tensions bandwidth constraints as you do. You learn from them, They’re your, they become your friends, your allies, your safety net in planned giving accelerator. So if you want to get your plan giving program started,

[00:33:03.14] spk_3:
You want to start in 2022,

[00:33:05.64] spk_1:
you can start

[00:33:06.28] spk_3:
with plan Giving accelerator. I

[00:33:19.34] spk_2:
hope you’ll join me. All the info you need is that planned Giving accelerator dot com. That is tony stick to, we’ve got boo koo

[00:33:20.86] spk_1:
but loads more

[00:33:21.61] spk_2:
time for next

[00:33:23.10] spk_3:
year’s plan for your

[00:33:24.59] spk_1:
year end donors,

[00:35:46.14] spk_0:
then there are other things like education for one thing, if you know the education you can no other people who went to that school. So maybe you can have them go on. Maybe have a board member went there so you can build a relationship more strongly. But also of course education indicates more disposable income. So you begin to see when you build a profile of the person you say, oh well they went to the school from that area, They studied social work or they studied history or that tells you something about what they are interested in. Right? And then there’s the question of, Although I said that people who don’t have Children, you know, are very sought after by plan giving professionals, on the other hand, people in their lifetime are more generous who have Children over the age of six Because they’re trying to inculcate good values in their Children. They start to see the value of a community. So there are studies that show that people who have Children over the age of six, there could be 6-18, they could be 18-24. But a family unit, a couple usually has more disposable income. It could be a same sex couple or a heterogeneous couple. But the heterosexual couple. But the point is because there are two incomes in that family, they usually have more disposable income. So so that that’s important when you see that. So those are little things that you’re looking at. And then of course there’s the interest, what else they give to, You know, how old are they? Was it their parents that also gave to this charity or this type of charity? I have a I have a friend and he gave to a university music program. And I said to him, why do you give, you didn’t even go to that university? Why are you giving to that music program? He said, well, I became friends with the dean. They invited me to an event. I went on a trip with them to Austria to listen to classical music. And he said in the end, you know, my father died when I was very young. And the one thing I remember is sitting on his lap when he played the piano. So the piano music to him was, and he doesn’t have any Children. So, you know, that’s what makes him happy giving to students who play the piano

[00:36:20.23] spk_1:
reminds us of course reminds him of his dad. And he hopes that that uh those young students will have Children of their own and their those Children will sit on their laps the way he sat on his dad’s lap. All right. Those are good. Those are, those are valuable insights that we can, we can get from uh, that we that we can get from the screening. So now going back to what you had suggested earlier when you said get them to know you and let them get to know, uh, sorry, get to know them and let them get to know you. So how do we do the second part of that now that we have this information, valuable insights? How do we let these new donors get to know us?

[00:37:37.13] spk_0:
Well, we talked about the series of three emails that welcome them. We have invitations. Uh, and of course in this environment, maybe you can’t invite them so easily, but you could still send them a video. Now. We had a homeless, uh, organized agency for homeless people last year that we were working with. And they sent out a video of their new building and somebody sent them $25,000 just from that video because it was the Executive director going through the building and saying, you know, we had such hopes for this building. We finally got it built. We’ve got all these people were going to bring into this building and the person was so touched. He was also a senior citizen. He had money. He felt like, oh, let me help. There are other people out there my age who do not have housing. And here is somebody who’s an agency that’s providing it. And that video, you know, a small video that they didn’t even actually seriously ask for money in it. They just said, and if you’d like to, you know, there was a little bit and

[00:37:44.23] spk_1:
well, it it touched it touched somebody. Well, video can do that. It’s powerful that way.

[00:39:16.22] spk_0:
All right. And of course a tour with the executive director. So you’re really getting to know the person, you know, face to face. So as best you can in this environment. You know, it’s a trusting relationship. So by video you’re seeing them as best you can. The other thing is of course you could set up coffee with them and people are much more accessible now because they’re not going out. So people are taking calls even if they are not. Yeah. In where at home, they’re still taking calls from wherever they are. They’re doing zoom with you. They want to be conducted. All of us are starved for human contact. We took these things for granted. And now suddenly we realized how valuable our community is. You know, I walk out, I’m an anonymous new york city right where nobody really knows anybody and you walk on the street and nobody should recognize. You know, it’s not like that anymore. The moment I walk out on the street, my neighbors are standing out there, they’re also walking. There’s no nowhere to go and nothing to do except to go for a while. So they’re all out there walking and they all suddenly know each other. So you realize how important your community is. So do you think that the area neighborhood association and things that are being done in our neighborhood are getting more attention. Sure, more people are planting, helping to plant in the parks, more people are helping to give to the local community association. Suddenly that’s becoming more important. So something that’s good for the small agencies.

[00:39:18.39] spk_1:
So engagement, Yeah. Uh, engagement at whatever level it might be something communal and community and in, in face to face,

[00:40:10.61] spk_0:
yes, might be something come and paint a mural on your wall of your, you know, of your agency. We have a, a friend of mine runs a clear art center community, you know, they make pottery, they got the local artists together to come and paint the wall even urine Corbett, they could still do that. You wear your mask, You come and paint the world their artistic. So you could plant flowers in your garden, invite them to do that, invite them to do outdoor things in the local park. You could have a gathering of rooftops. People have been doing gatherings or some of our clients have been doing gatherings or rooftops whatever you can do outdoors, especially in the summer. And then also we were talking, well, we were

[00:40:14.43] spk_1:
talking about january, but that’s okay. Well into spring

[00:40:55.71] spk_0:
now january, you could do a lunch and learn, which is a good time to do a lunch and learn. And that also gives you an information back because the people who attend, you do the lunch and learn on different programs and people sign up based on the interest. So then, you know, well this donor signed up for this lunch and learn on this program. So obviously that’s what they care about or they might write to you and say I didn’t, I really wanted to attend this, but I couldn’t. So you send them the recording of that lunch. That’s another, uh, value of having something which is recorded, which you’re doing on zoom. You can record it like, just like your radio programs, tony

[00:41:15.11] spk_1:
I’m a, I’m a big fan of big fan of audio. I think it’s very intimate medium, yep. All right. So we’ve, we’ve, we’ve thought through our engagement, it might be something in real life. It might be something virtual. I love. I mean, you gave a lot of good ideas. Um, now we need to plan for the next solicitation.

[00:41:21.53] spk_0:
Now

[00:41:49.61] spk_1:
we’re in, we’re in like the third quarter of 3rd quarter of next year and it’s coming time to solicit the person again. They made a year into gift this year. So we’re going to presume, but they’re, they’re going to do the same. Let’s exclude the folks who maybe became major donors and they’ve got a relationship now with a gift officer. We’re not, we’re not at that level. Uh, we’re dealing with the larger group. We’re planning our fourth quarter. What should we be thinking about in terms of possibly upgrading or should we not try to upgrade in the second year. What’s your advice around planning that, that second year solicitation?

[00:45:27.39] spk_0:
Well, another thing that we never spoke about and some of my clients and colleagues will be very upset if I don’t mention it is creating a giving circle. So you could have, if you have enough donors at certain levels, you could try to upgrade them by creating a council, uh, you know, giving society, you know, so, so somebody who gave 500 you could give them an incentive to upgrade to 1000 because when they’re at 1000 they’ll get such and such benefits. You know, they’ll meet somebody that they care about or they’ll get a painting or they’ll hear a concert or you’ll have some event just for them. So, so you’re constantly upgrading those who gave 500 to 1000, those who gave 1000 to 5000, those who gave 5002, 10,000. So, so a little theater client is probably going to say, oh, you know, uh, famous irish actor is going to speak with 10 of you and you only get invited to that if, if you give, you know, a little bit more than what they were already given and that and that creates a cohort of people. So they have a little sense of community because that giving society is going to meet, um, we have the example of a museum that was up. It’s a very famous glass museum called the corning Museum of Glass and it was very well supported by the corning company. But the corning company went through some very tough times and so they needed private support during that period. So they started with a giving society where people came up, they went through the museum, they were passing by on their way to Niagara Falls or they were interested in glass or whatever and they were told that if you give this much that’s great, we are very grateful. But if you give this much you’ll be invited to an event the opening of our show and guess what? We’ll fly you up in our private plane because corning had the private plan and you won’t have to drive all the way you know from new york city well and and that was something the company could no longer support the museum financially. But they had this plane which flew up with their executives and I was such a such a cashier to to fly up in the blind drain, arrive at this museum, attend this beautiful event on roman glass with food from roman times and then have the director of the museum walk you through the show. I said one of the most beautiful things that you know, I was a stuff remember trying to attend this and I thought I was wowed and and so you know you can be creative with almost anything you could if you’re a social service agency will say well I can’t do that well you know you have people in your community who will come out and provide their celebrity help to you. So you could still have somebody do a little concert or somebody, somebody from your community who’s a wonderful singer musician or something. And and it may be not relevant, but maybe their daughter was helped by your uh, you know, educational charity or their mother was served by your senior citizen center. They will do things for you. There was a person who used to come and play the piano at a senior citizen center in uptown all the way up, you know, above the Columbia University is in Morningside

[00:45:30.03] spk_1:
Heights or something, riverside

[00:46:01.08] spk_0:
riverside riverside. Yeah. You know, they’re above Colombia where the cloisters, the museum is there and nobody knew who this person was. But when we looked him up, he was a very famous pianist who used to play at the Carlyle and his mother was in the center. And so he would come up and perform. And so we asked him if he would perform and he did a concert and Steinway hall for us because he was a famous man and there are little treasures in your community. You just have to find out about them. There are little gems floating around.

[00:46:14.68] spk_1:
All right. So you like the idea of incentivizing folks to give a little give more, Even even in the 2nd year. So they were they were our, it was first year was last year. Now we’re planning for the next year incentivize them to increase even in that just in that second year. Yes,

[00:46:46.98] spk_0:
yes. And they will because you’ve been talking to them, you’ve been engaging with them in different ways and, and maybe some of them will become, you know, much higher level donors because for small agencies, a small amount can make a big difference. There is if they gave that small amount of a much larger organization, they can’t give them that personalized attention and it’s not going to make, its going to be a drop in the bucket.

[00:46:52.58] spk_1:
Yeah. There are those folks who will be more will be more generous

[00:46:56.35] spk_3:
to smaller agencies

[00:46:57.35] spk_1:
because they get a lot better treatment. They have more fulfilling relationships with a smaller organization than they would at an organization where their gift was

[00:47:07.88] spk_0:
not in their communities. They, you know, they feel closer to it.

[00:47:14.38] spk_1:
Okay. Alright then. Um, why don’t you leave us with some final thoughts please?

[00:47:54.88] spk_0:
Well, just remember about the leaky bucket. You know, it’s a, we all grew up with that song. There’s a hole in the bucket, realize a dear Liza. So just remember you are not going to let your bucket leak. You’re gonna make every effort you can to get those the donor who’s gonna fall through the cracks, Give him as much attention as I say lavish movie cultivation, whatever tactics you can think of. Whatever relationship building and getting to know you uh, thoughts and strategies that you can come up with, have a plan, learn about them and let them learn about you.

[00:48:16.47] spk_1:
Excellent. I’m gonna look, I’m going to remind myself uh refresh my memory about there’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza what do we do something like? What do we do? All right, thank you. Hernan Prasad founder and president Prasad consulting and research. The company is at prasad consulting dot com and she is at Prasad C Thank you very much. Program.

[00:48:24.37] spk_0:
Thank you Tory pleasure to talk to you.

[00:48:27.07] spk_1:
My pleasure as well.

[00:48:30.77] spk_2:
Next week engaged

[00:48:31.62] spk_3:
boards will

[00:48:32.58] spk_2:
fundraise with Michael Davidson and brian

[00:48:55.77] spk_1:
Saber from asking matters if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Mhm. Our creative producer

[00:49:26.17] spk_4:
is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio Big Donald. profit ideas for the over 95% go out and be great. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for October 4, 2021: Risk Management I

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: Risk Management I

Gene Takagi

You want to keep your nonprofit safe. To help you, Gene Takagi starts a 2-part mini-series on risk management. We kick off with indemnification. It sounds boring. But it’s a word with great significance for your board members, officers, employees; your contracts; even your sexual harassment policy. Gene is our legal contributor and the principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

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Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.

 

We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Nonprofit Radio for September 27, 2021: “The Activist” Activates Activism

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: “The Activist” Activates Activism

Amy Sample Ward returns for a conversation about CBS’s proposed show “The Activist,” the backlash that ensued, the replacement show, competition, celebrity, and our proposal for an inclusive and appropriate media portrayal of true social change work. Amy is our technology and social media contributor, and the CEO of NTEN.

 

 

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Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.

 

We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big

[00:01:44.64] spk_0:
Non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of gastro paralysis if I had the stomach, the idea that you missed this week’s show, the activist activates activism. AmY sample Ward returns for a conversation about CBS proposed show the activist the backlash that ensued the replacement show, competition, celebrity and our proposal for an inclusive and appropriate media portrayal of true social change work. Amy is our technology and social media contributor and the ceo of N 10 On Tony’s take two last chance planned giving in the pandemic era were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is the activist activates activism. What a pleasure to always welcome back AMy sample Ward. You know who she is for pete’s sake. She’s our technology and social media contributor And Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. They are at AMY sample war dot org and at a me Rs 40 AMY. Welcome back.

[00:01:46.44] spk_1:
Thanks for having me.

[00:02:20.04] spk_0:
Absolutely. And I’m honoring your new pronouns. Yeah, So we’re we’re talking about the activist. And um, I want to, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m defending the activists. I mean, I think it’s indefensible. But you know you and I had some back and forth about it a little bit and I’m not as I had some thoughts that I felt like didn’t come out in the, in the whole conversation, but I mean it’s been withdrawn in its original form, so

[00:02:21.41] spk_1:
shifted in four matter whatever document

[00:03:19.24] spk_0:
emphasizing the indispensability of it. But there was still some things that I wanted to I want to talk about. So just that everybody’s aware on the same page. The activist was a television show from cBS Global citizen and live nation and amy feel free by the way to step in if you think I didn’t explain it. Well, it was a competition. It was a competition among six activists in health, education and the environment to activists per mission. And they were competing for basically social media attention. And the winner was going to present to The G-20 summit in Rome in in late October and they were tasked with competing in missions, media stunts, digital campaigns and community events. And so, uh,

[00:03:20.82] spk_1:
sounds like the world as I know it for nonprofits

[00:03:34.34] spk_0:
everyday. So Alright, yeah, not an accurate, not an accurate depiction of activism. Right. But so what were you what were your thoughts? God, I described it. What what what were you your thoughts about the activists?

[00:05:39.44] spk_1:
I have a number of thoughts and I think that, you know, a place that we could start is just what what we just said there about the competition piece. And and then I really want to get into the celebrity or the celebratory izing of what this work is and um, you know, competition, it is a very dangerous mindset that exists in the sector already, you know, and isn’t serving us by thinking we’re in competition with each other. And I think there’s a large movement of practitioners and social change work and organizations trying to really force and invite people to let go of that kind of for profit world adopted mindset that we’re in competition and we’re fighting over the dollars and we’re fighting over the credit and we’re fighting over who gets the attention and instead like, where has that gotten us? Is the world dramatically better? I would say no. So what happens if we’re not in competition? What happens if we believe that together we have all the resources that we have, all of the, um, you know, materials that we need and we really start doing that work in collaboration. What does it look like to really work in deep collaboration in community with each other, not just with the community members that we’re trying to support. So just off the bat, it felt like such a slap in the face of that work of the sector to say, hey, we’re, we don’t have to be in competition. Um, and I think we’ve seen the same backlash that came to the show, came to foundations for years, who were running the exact same types of competitions, you know, hey, whoever gets the most likes and votes in this week, we’ll get our foundation grant like those happen for a number of years, you know, and they stopped because so many folks organized to tell foundations like, oh my gosh, this is obviously so harmful. And it is, is naturally only going to get the same people who win that could have already had the most resources anyway because they have the most resources to mobilize people to help them win. Right? Like it’s not actually creating an opportunity for folks that are unknown to become the recipients of that attention. Right?

[00:06:01.44] spk_0:
Yeah. And I agree on the competitive aspect. I mean I’m railing regularly with guests against the scarcity mindset, which, which is what competition creates. That it’s, you know, aligned with that is the zero sum that if they, if they’re getting something, then I’m not getting it

[00:06:21.64] spk_1:
right. If somebody’s winning the activist, the rest of us lost the activist. Right? Like,

[00:06:28.24] spk_0:
right? Say it again.

[00:06:29.18] spk_1:
I said, if one person wins the activists than all the rest of us lost,

[00:07:22.54] spk_0:
we’ve all right, that’s right. That’s right. Um, so I, I agree that the competitive way that they organized it was it’s antithetical to what we’re all what we’re all trying to achieve. And I know just bring it down to like nonprofit radio ground. It’s antithetical to what lots of guests and I have been talking against for the 11 years. I’ve been doing the show, it’s just, we’re not in competition. We should be in collaboration? And you’re and you’re seeing more grantmakers recognizing that over not that’s not just so recent like over the past but probably 10 years or so that fortunately that that collectivism uh collectivism leads to a grant was pretty short lived. Right? Right? And I think

[00:07:43.84] spk_1:
you’re right remember foundations didn’t just stop doing the hey how many likes do you get you get a grant competitions? They also moved the other way and said hey we will fund, coalitions, will fund collaborative work, will fund intentionally in that way. Yeah. Yeah. But on the other side of things, the celebrity piece I think does a couple of things making it seem like activism is this celebrity level, you know like you’re on the T. V. Show because you’re with whoever like Usher, you know

[00:08:08.04] spk_0:
these celebrity Julianne, I don’t know if it’s Julianne huff for Julian, how are you? And uh Priyanka chopra Jonas so

[00:10:24.14] spk_1:
creating this like celebrity nous around around quote unquote activists around social change work more broadly because I don’t know what people think activism of, you know, I think is really damaging, it makes it feel like it is something reserved for a famous person, right? And that I think we already really struggle in the nonprofit sector with this patriarchal white dominant view that what we’re doing in social change work is actual charity, right? And it’s like some old white dudes, white wife’s pet project, right? And so of course you’re invited to the fancy celebrity balls because like you are also in that class, right? And and the work of social change is not like high class, right? Like we’re relegated down here, which is like we’re trying to get rid of classism. So the idea that we would reinforce that kind of elevated these are the fancy people that get the credit for doing the work and the rest of us aren’t um I think it’s a really hard kind of mirror to hold up in 2021 again to a lot a lot of folks, not just you and I like none of this is new, right? Lots of people have said this, but I don’t know that what the world was needing was a couple people to be elevated as if they were celebrities for for doing important work or that it be presented as something that those single people have done. There is no work to change communities to resource communities, to change our world, that someone single person has done. So, again, the celebrity pieces very exclusive. It’s like of all the people in Hollywood, right? Like these are the people that made the movies and got the awards. So it’s also like of all the people doing this work. These are the famous people and it’s it’s that’s it, they’re separate. It’s very hard and exclusive to be part of that world, I don’t know does any favours.

[00:11:19.94] spk_0:
And I saw that Julianne, h you know, apologized and said that she was not suited to be a judge, not qualified to be a judge. Of course, that all she just only did that after the after the backlash, she didn’t realize upfront that she’s not qualified to judge social change work, which she may not even know that phrase. You know, we’re not I’m not giving her much credit, but she didn’t realize upfront that she wasn’t qualified to judge activists. Yeah, this part is where you know, see I think that you’re you’re not giving enough credit to future social change workers and volunteers. I feel like people are bright enough to recognize that poverty doesn’t get solved by. Usher coming to a club event in Los Angeles, I

[00:11:20.76] spk_1:
don’t know that you can save

[00:11:21.87] spk_0:
1000 people. Well, I mean looking

[00:11:32.24] spk_1:
around the world right now, it does not seem that people are understanding or acknowledging How things will change and what the work is to change them. Like just looking at examples from 20, alone, it doesn’t seem like the world is all on board for

[00:12:43.74] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications attention spans are short and there is an overwhelming volume of media. We all know this. So how do you get heard and remembered you find your core message and you make it concise turn to, we’ll get you there that can help you with that. So that as they get you placed in those major media outlets that you’ve heard me name and in podcasts, in blogs, in conferences, in op ed pages. Your concise core message resonates. They will help you hone your message and get it heard because your story is their mission turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. Now back to the activist activates activism. What examples are you looking at?

[00:12:51.24] spk_1:
I mean, we could look at schools, we could look at rent relief, we could look at college loan forgiveness. We could look at all of these topics where the residents of what’s needed

[00:12:57.96] spk_0:
activists behind each of those. I mean, I was thinking of, I was thinking of the grassroots black lives matter.

[00:13:11.84] spk_1:
Oh totally. I’m not saying there aren’t movements there, but the idea of the country. Sure. But I think there’s still a lot of folks who feel like and

[00:13:12.43] spk_0:
me too, and

[00:13:38.04] spk_1:
we should just be able to have those things, you know, go a certain way and not like Black lives Matter. Didn’t start in 2020 you know, and going for years and years and I think a lot of folks deep in the Black Lives Matter movement would say yes, there have been important winds, there have been important changes and look at where we are at like this is a long path and not everybody is here for long path work, you know.

[00:13:51.24] spk_0:
Oh yeah, I don’t, not everybody is here for a long path work. No,

[00:13:53.69] spk_1:
I mean, how many folks just use that example, how many folks put up a, you know, we whatever kind of empty we we support Black Lives statement last summer and have taken it off their website and have done no material change in their work. Right?

[00:15:29.54] spk_0:
All right. Well, those are among the yeah, those are among the frivolous people or entities, corporations, whatever they did it for publicity. It was it was good for a few months. They gave their corporate promise not to. Uh well, now I’m shifting gears a little bit, but the corporate promises not to give too uh folks in Congress who voted to decertify the election, you know? But those promises only lasted a month or a couple of months or something. And they found back channel ways to do it maybe even during maybe when their pledge was still up. But yeah, now, uh okay. I just All right. I guess you’re looking more at the negative examples I’m looking at. I mean, there was activism beginning with uh when as much as I don’t like to do politics on the show, I went to the I went to the the rally right after trump was elected, the january january 2017 rally in Washington D. C. The women’s. The wasn’t called women’s March. And yeah, um I mean, there’s are a million or a million people sure showed up and and protested what looked like a, well, it looked like at the time, it’s gonna be a white, you know, white dominant narrative party and emerged to be that and much more in terms of.

[00:16:12.04] spk_1:
But I actually think these examples you’re bringing up our disproving your point, because the point you were making, I think was something we talked about when when the when the cameras weren’t rolling, when the when the recording wasn’t going of, you know, a show like, this is gonna really put this kind of work in the spotlight and it’s going to bring more people into the sector, but the the stories that you’re bringing up or showing that, like, well before this show, which hasn’t aired yet, there were plenty of people already showing up. So I don’t know that we have been waiting on a show that celebrities is what activism work is to have people feel like doing social change is something that they can and should be a part of.

[00:16:37.34] spk_0:
Well, all right, that was an early opinion to when I was before, I had done a lot of research before, I thought more about it. Um I just I think, again, I think it’s it short changes folks to think that they believe that celebrity is the the root of activism, celebrity is essential to activism.

[00:18:28.14] spk_1:
I’m not making the point that it’s essential to it, but I’m saying that when you remove people from the work and make them celebrities, it is now detached from the work and so it is, it’s reinforcing a weird dynamic in the sector that the people that will get that visibility are then removed and are up here as celebrities, you know, I think even just to keep on the women’s March example, a lot of the folks that were the core organizers of that very first Women’s March, which has continued and taken on other work as well, you know, have have faced a lot of harshness when put in celebrity spotlight for their role in that both people tearing them apart, finding other things, they’ve been a part of in their past and claiming that because they worked on some other campaign now they’re actually have some secret motive to tear this movement down, that it hasn’t been good when visibility has come to them, but so I just, I think naming what celebrity does to a movement is important as part of what I think folks were asking the organizing non profit to account for, you know, I think part of what folks were calling and giving feedback to global citizen about wasn’t like, hey, this is an awful show format, it was take accountability for what is going to happen if you are removing these people and you’re turning them into celebrities instead of honoring that they are people doing work who are full humans, right, they are not about social media likes and media blitz competitions, like we have to give space for people’s wholeness, otherwise we’re just gonna chew them up and spit them out, like, like we do with a lot of other celebrity culture, right? And that’s not going to be good for the movements they’ve been deeply invested in.

[00:18:40.54] spk_0:
And and the I think the backlash itself demonstrated that there are people who recognize that the work is deeper than a culture of celebrity,

[00:18:52.66] spk_1:
Right?

[00:19:38.14] spk_0:
You know, and so I don’t I don’t think those who are currently in social change work are the only ones who recognize that it’s deeper work than a culture of celebrity. That’s what I’m saying. And even folks who are, you know, the current teenagers, I think as I think they would recognize, I mean they might have been drawn to the show for the wrong reason, but I think as they, as they aged and for those who emerged into social change work and true activism, that they would, well, they’d eventually face the harsh reality if they went in with, if they went in with the wrong impression, that would quickly be uh quickly be defeated as they didn’t get any jobs because they kept telling interviewers that they wanted to rub shoulders with,

[00:19:48.16] spk_1:
they wanted the celebrity position.

[00:20:42.74] spk_0:
Yeah, right. Um but I think they would have been smart enough. I think even young folks are smart enough to have to have come to the to recognize that it’s it’s more than celebrities in a, at an event in a club. All right now, all right, So I want to give global citizen there do because they did uh there was a joint statement from CBS and global citizen and live nation. And then Global citizen also had its own statement which said in part global activism centers on collaboration and cooperation, not competition. We apologize to the activists, hosts and the larger activist community. We got it wrong. It is our responsibility to use this platform in the most effective way to realize change and elevate the incredible activists dedicating their lives to progress all around the world. So they came around and that’s a to me that’s a very that’s a very responsible apology

[00:20:49.54] spk_1:
to Yeah, I mean it doesn’t account for

[00:20:52.44] spk_0:
in fact they got into it. Yeah, it was

[00:20:54.72] spk_1:
like this all of it happened the same

[00:20:57.91] spk_0:
thing I said about Julian H where were you when we were when the producers first approached you.

[00:21:27.24] spk_1:
Yeah. And they say that accountability is, you know, demonstrating that you actually heard the feedback and will change. So I I hear that there was like, we get the people are mad and we will change the format, but but I think it would have been also awesome to hear like, hey, honestly, this is what we have been looking at and what we were valuing when we made that decision and here’s how we’re going to change those values. So this doesn’t happen again because because global citizen is a very prominent, well resourced organization themselves. And

[00:21:43.04] spk_0:
so

[00:21:58.44] spk_1:
as far as as far as apologies go, you know, versus a statement. But had it been more of an actual apology, that’s what I would have wanted to hear. Hey, this is what we were valuing. This is how we made this original decision and this is how we’re going to change those values so that we don’t make this decision again.

[00:23:04.24] spk_0:
I agree, but based on the way they operate. I’m not sure that they are capable of that now. I didn’t know a lot about global citizens, but they give points for activism and you trade in those points for rewards like um like V. I. P. Experiences like tickets and gift cards and subscriptions. So you know, like earned 20 points call congress, I was just on the website earlier. 20 points support Covid 19 relief for LGBT plus people. uh you get 10 points if you end the pandemic for all, which didn’t seem right to me. But if the LGBT community gets 20 points, how come the whole world, everybody everybody plus LGBT only gets half. That makes sense. That part didn’t make sense to me. I thought it I thought if LGBT is 20 then the whole world should be like 200 I thought or 2000 because there’s so many more, you know? But all right. So I

[00:23:05.14] spk_1:
mean their fundamental they give the business model is already based on currency of how you act and there’s

[00:23:15.14] spk_0:
get VIP backstage experiences. So, I

[00:23:50.94] spk_1:
Mean there’s a reason why they were the ones about 1.8 million us non profits while they were the organization in this deal of course, because they are ones that are already set up kind of doing work in that way. But maybe the feedback was more than just the show, you know, like maybe there was something to here in that reaction that was about what they are valuing in the work versus just the the tv format of this, it

[00:24:17.74] spk_0:
was not their business model and I don’t think they want to hear that it’s all right. That’s why I say, I don’t think they’re capable of the kind of apology that you’re talking about because I don’t think they want to question their business model in their core values, they get, you know, they have millions of activists and billions of people affected, you know, like, so, so if I sign a petition to end the pandemic for all, doesn’t that count as seven billion people affected because I’ve signed a petition for the whole world is that that’s you know, and I

[00:25:31.34] spk_1:
think this is the difficulty of um this this time we find ourselves in of being alive and In 2021 of there are so many things at least on my list, I’m sure on your list too that I think would need to dramatically change or go away and be formed a new in order for us to have a world even slightly close to an equitable world and if there’s that many things to change and there’s that many needs, you know, there’s going to have to be a whole lot of ways that we try to get there and lots of different missions, lots of different versions of the same mission, right? Like we have to try everything and anything to try to get there within reason, not like truly trying anything and everything. And so, you know, the model of global citizen, not for me, I’m not going to work there and I’m not going to like take the point based actions, are there people that take them? Yes,

[00:25:33.95] spk_0:
great.

[00:26:39.84] spk_1:
And so like there can there and maybe that will go away at some point in this very long journey that hopefully everybody has signed on to right of getting to a better world. But it’s hard because I feel challenged to hold on to like that’s not for me. And but maybe it’s for someone, right? Like just because I don’t like that flavor ice cream doesn’t mean that flavor of ice cream shouldn’t exist. And so like how do we how do we take a like, harm reduction mentality versus and I like idealistic, there’s some perfect rubric um and not that I think you’re saying that, but for me, I think, OK, well if we’re if we’re if we’re going to say harm reduction because we can’t avoid that right now, then maybe it’s not doing a show that’s profiling people through global citizen, that’s profiling people through local grassroots, you know, like interviews and finding folks who are doing work outside of traditional models or you know, whatever it might be like maybe the, maybe the invitation then for harm reduction in creating some ridiculous tv show is sourcing the folks that are going to be featured in a different way.

[00:28:45.44] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two last chance planned giving him the pandemic era. It’s your life. If you miss it, I don’t know what else to say. It’s hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. Thank you. Thank you very much. JmT. It’s on September 30, 2-3 eastern time and here’s what’s on the agenda. What plan to giving is who your best prospects are, where to start your program. And how does plan giving fit in our pandemic era to make your reservation. You got, it’s free by the way, this is free, but you got to make a reservation JMT consulting dot com go to events and then middling speaker series. Actually, it’s not middling, you know, it’s not lackluster either where I would be the only person listed. It’s the expert speaker series. Yak. Yak Yak, that’s where you go, Expert speaker series, I hope you’ll be with me September 30, let’s talk about planned giving in our pandemic era and yeah, all important your questions. The most important part I think that’s the most important part of any webinar because that puts the focus on what you’re thinking. What you didn’t quite grasp how the topic relates to your work. The questions the all important Q. And A. Of course it’s included. I didn’t mention that in the agenda but and I don’t want to I don’t want to assume that it’s uh it’s there just trust me plenty of time for Q. And A. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the activist activates activism which I am kind of enjoying saying. I’ve always thought about doing a podcast that elevates grassroots work. But yeah but you have to be more of a storyteller. Yeah. I’m not my podcast. This show is not about storytelling. I’m not a storyteller I would need a producer who’s a good storyteller. You

[00:29:01.36] spk_1:
can chat to somebody.

[00:30:02.24] spk_0:
Yeah I can chat. I know but it’s not it’s not gonna it’s not gonna go is it not gonna be that it’s not gonna be that interesting beyond the nonprofit community. I’m talking about a show whether it’s a podcast or T. V. Or Youtube stream whatever Livestream whatever it is that tells the story of a community of nonprofits or a single non profit and how they’re doing their work, how they’ve evolved how their work is evolved. Maybe they have a pivoted at some point because they realized they weren’t not, maybe not only doing well, but we’re doing good, but maybe they’re doing harm. So they had to change and tells that story the arc of a nonprofit grassroots work that, but as I said, that takes a storyteller and the and the global citizen. I mean, that’s a that’s a counter example, the activism around global citizen as a counter example to what I said earlier about having faith in future activists, because they’re a bunch of people who are just doing collectivism and they’re getting V. I. P. Experience is after they trade in their their 2000 points. So I realized that’s a counter example of what I was saying, but they’re not the folks that I’m paying attention to

[00:30:08.37] spk_1:
write well and maybe, you know,

[00:30:10.48] spk_0:
have faith, I have faith in humanity, is what I’m saying.

[00:30:12.88] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m hopeful that

[00:30:15.45] spk_0:
future social change workers,

[00:31:00.84] spk_1:
how they’ve changed the format. Of course, we’re gonna get to I have watched it or whatever, but, you know, changing the format to being a doctor who series, presumably then like, each episode, just about one of them or whatever, really does honor the community of work. You know, whatever movement there in not just that person, and I think in doing that it could contribute to the point you were trying to make earlier then people see that and think they could be part of it because it isn’t about, oh, like, what are the odds that I would be Sarah or you know whoever the person is versus oh I could be in that movement right? And that movement is accessible to me. Well that’s the big piece that I think is important.

[00:31:40.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I like it’s accessible. I I could see myself as part of that well because it removes the competition, removes the celebrity right? Two of the most offensive parts of the whole endeavour. The initial the initial endeavour. Alright, alright. Um something else that we chatted about an email. Uh you know I have to be careful but I don’t want us to be as a community so self righteous that we think we can’t be accurately portrayed in, in in popular

[00:31:42.91] spk_1:
culture.

[00:31:44.84] spk_0:
Um and I, you know I went back, you know I was thinking remember the philanthropist

[00:31:51.84] spk_1:
kind of, it was a name but I don’t, I never thought it

[00:31:56.33] spk_0:
was, it was prevalent. It was, I’m not citing it as a good example of popular culture.

[00:32:01.83] spk_1:
Don’t my netflix queue.

[00:32:15.34] spk_0:
I don’t even, I think they struck it. I don’t even think it’s available but it was a jet setting billionaire. He did good deeds motivated by, he saved a uh huh a black child in Nigeria from a hurricane or something and it was a pivotal moment in his life.

[00:32:21.36] spk_1:
White White savior is that

[00:32:35.74] spk_0:
exactly. Uh I think he had his own jet or something. I don’t know but he had the means to travel around the world and do good deeds for, for less fortunate people of color, uh, throughout the world

[00:32:36.84] spk_1:
how, and how grateful the world was for him

[00:33:17.94] spk_0:
as well. So that, that was frivolous. That was from. Um, but I, so I’m not trying to extreme these things together and just, you know, another example of that, that was a bet that was a bad attempt. I just, so there’s, there’s a philanthropist. Now there’s the activist. I don’t want us to get to a point where we feel that we, like I said that we, there can’t be an accurate portrayal of our, of our work, uh, in, in, in, in media and popular culture because because there’s no, there’s no profession that’s accurately portrayed. Sure. I mean, you know, law and order, law enforcement doesn’t happen in half hour bites from investigation to verdict. It just doesn’t, it doesn’t work that way.

[00:33:28.09] spk_1:
I mean, the office seemed pretty accurate for what I imagine is a small, very small, small corporate office.

[00:33:53.54] spk_0:
Um, it was even better when it was Ricky chavis. Um, yeah, all right. The act right. But they weren’t, they weren’t activists, but they were Dunder Mifflin. Um, so that’s all, I just don’t want us to, like I said, like I already said, I don’t want it to be too self righteous that the work has to be so accurately portrayed that no portrayal will suffice.

[00:34:25.74] spk_1:
Sure, but I guess like what, what’s the show that does that, that like, is accurately portraying the work is not sensationalizing. It is not, you know, making light of it or making it seem frivolous. Like, what is that? Like a lot of, a lot of movement work is emails, google, docs, socializing ideas with different partners,

[00:34:32.58] spk_0:
watch that show or listen to that podcast.

[00:35:03.74] spk_1:
Right. And so I guess that’s my question. Like what’s what’s the show that is an accurate portrayal? That isn’t, that isn’t either sensationalizing it and making it feel like every nonprofit is out there saving babies every day and like, and then they’re not. So then our donors then saying, oh well, like you’re so, let me go find the one that is right. Like what I’m willing, I’m willing to hear your plate, but I want to hear like an example that that convinces me, well, there isn’t one

[00:35:43.24] spk_0:
yet, but it’s the show that will, when I find the right producer, it will tell a genuine and not heartstring, not, not not a heartstring story, but we’ll tell a genuine story of successes and failures and how, how that organization or that community of organizations have improved their, you know, improved the water in their community or, or sheltered animals or sheltered mothers and and Children right? There, there is a, there is a space for a heartfelt genuine story that’s not, not sensationalized,

[00:35:52.09] spk_1:
right?

[00:35:53.74] spk_0:
Nobody’s produced it yet. Right.

[00:37:15.43] spk_1:
Well, and I also think there’s a, I would anticipate even somebody looking to produce that would rely on some of the same structures that many others have relied on which is like it’s a five oh one C three registered organization. They have these types of staff, they have this type of funding, they’re in good relationship with a foundation, like the things that are already a kind of reinforcing more privileged organizations now, even if they’re small versus what’s the space for the group that has chosen never to file with the I. R. S. And it’s not A C. Three and you know, maybe fiscally sponsored or just operating on mutual aid. Like how do we make room in the storytelling of what the work is to say that it isn’t just a five oh one C. Three that has a certain amount of income that files and 9 90 right? Like there are a lot of people and there’s going to have to be a lot of people doing work in a lot of different ways for things to change because also like maybe the I. R. S. Should change like, right? Like there’s a lot of layers to what could and should be happening for us to get out of us a self perpetuating cycle of of maintaining social issues so that we can maintain a sector that’s like Top five of of the sectors in the US right?

[00:37:42.33] spk_0:
Yeah. You’re you’re trending towards the uh you’re trending toward the you’re not self righteous. I know you but yeah if you want there to be a if you want there to be something that people pay attention to it’s got to be I don’t want to say it’s got to be mainstreamed but

[00:37:47.03] spk_1:
You feel like if there was a show let me clarify you are feeling that if there is a show that’s profiling like the honest good work especially at the grassroots level and it included folks who did not have a registered 501 C3 that that would be harmful.

[00:38:31.62] spk_0:
Now I don’t know I just don’t. No actually it could be beneficial. Yeah I was focusing more on the 1.7 or eight million charities that are 501 C threes. Sure. No but there’s of course there’s space for non non registered activist work. Just we have to find those people and tell their stories just as an amplify their stories just as well. Just as well as we amplify the five oh one C threes

[00:39:17.92] spk_1:
right? That’s my point. My point is just remembering that we’re not even their ideal break was being like create a great show. We don’t borrow. They’re like oh well they must they must check these boxes right? And change that mindset in ourselves. Even as we were imagining some wonderful show that all of the producers of T. V. Shows are listening to this radio and now we’ll contact you tony and want to produce it you know? But like even even as we’re imagining things, we’re challenging ourselves to let go of structures that don’t serve us so that we can imagine differently because I think that’s a big that’s needed. I

[00:39:48.82] spk_0:
was being myopic. Yeah, I agree. That could be a very genuine heartfelt story. How come how come you don’t qualify or never pursued your I. R. S designation because then people could give to you and and they were doing a tax deduction. How come you don’t participate in that structure is the reason it’s just you don’t feel like you have access, you don’t feel you have the resources or you just don’t want to be part of that structure. Right? Okay. Yeah, you’re right. I agree those those are genuine heartfelt, important and impactful stories too. So nobody’s done this show, but I’m sure there’s a space for it. I mean, I don’t see this on cbs

[00:39:59.53] spk_1:
but public,

[00:40:01.40] spk_0:
public radio, public television.

[00:41:49.81] spk_1:
Right. Right. And I think just to tie it back to, you know, the activist where we started this conversation, I think, you know, if if a group, whether it was netflix or cbs or NPR came For example here to Portland and said, Hey there’s some really strong mutual aid efforts happening here. We want to profile you on this show, it will be 40 minute beautiful documentary. I imagine it would also cause a lot of challenge for the community to say who gets to have their voice. You know, like the premise of mutual aid is that it’s like all of us coming together to support each other. And so what what does it look like again? Even even if it isn’t positioned as a competition for G 20 access, what does it mean in that moment to celebrities or give credit to certain people within within quote unquote, you know, social work. And I think well I’m not presenting that as a challenge. Like there could never be a documentary please. I would love there to be way more people profiled for doing change work. My point is saying even even in this other scale or premise of the show or storytelling, I think it’s important still to ask the questions of are we creating a dynamic that is harmful? Are we allowing there to be space for lots of voices and not, you know, inadvertently trying to put one person’s face on the episode tile as if they’re the face of that movement, right? Like how are we honoring this is community work and not just um you know, maybe unintentionally from, from lack of you know, paying attention doing the same cycle again and turning things into one person’s story.

[00:41:54.31] spk_0:
Alright, alright. I’d like you to be an advisor on the

[00:41:57.59] spk_1:
show,

[00:41:59.76] spk_0:
but I want you to agree that we don’t want to let make perfect be the enemy of the good.

[00:42:14.50] spk_1:
No, no. And I think that we can achieve that by having really intentional decision making. Instead of running with opportunity right? Like going slower with intention than going faster without it

[00:42:24.60] spk_0:
going slower with intentions. Yeah because we do want it we right we want to honor the voices and the work.

[00:42:28.60] spk_1:
But I and I want some fancy title. So when the credits go pie people are like what is that? You know look at

[00:42:35.39] spk_0:
you you just you just contradicted everything you just said

[00:42:48.60] spk_1:
I want you said that that I’m a producer on the show. So you already I want something that doesn’t say producer. I it’s

[00:42:49.55] spk_0:
like you’re already you’re already elevated yourself already making it about you. You just said we don’t want to make it about one person. I said advisor you elevated yourself the producer.

[00:43:15.90] spk_1:
I don’t know what the difference in those words is. So what a contradiction. I don’t work in tv. What’s the, tell me what the difference between an advisor and producers. I thought producers like just I always thought a producer was like a convenient name because you didn’t you weren’t like actually part of the show.

[00:43:20.10] spk_0:
I think producers are they get the money, you give the money or they make the money or they find the money they find it among their connections and their and their corporate the media people they know uh they like they make it happen

[00:43:35.70] spk_1:
well so I’m gonna need okay so if I’m going to advise you on something that I’m gonna need to go to some like some class about what what you do to make a T. V. Show because I have never been involved in that world.

[00:43:48.70] spk_0:
All right. And I’m not restricted to television either.

[00:43:52.60] spk_1:
Okay. Cool, interpretive dance.

[00:44:17.89] spk_0:
That’s too esoteric. Alright. Somewhere between interpretive dance and television. Okay. There’s plenty of media space. Alright. Alright. Um Yeah, I I believe there’s a space for a show that people will will follow that tells the story correctly. Yeah. All right. All right. Anything you want to leave us with? I’ll give you the last word is

[00:44:45.99] spk_1:
I will You’ve already said that. You agree with me. So, I’ll say I agree with you on that. There is something here. I don’t know that it’s the activist but hopefully we can as we explore. I think a lot of different storytelling podcast. You know like there’s there is a a rich history of people of being storytellers and finding places where we elevate well, the work to change our world as something we prioritize in the stories we tell.

[00:44:57.29] spk_0:
I agree. I agree. Alright. Maybe we’ll watch the documentary uh whenever it comes out and maybe

[00:45:00.66] spk_1:
we’ll have a watch party.

[00:45:04.79] spk_0:
Maybe we’ll review at least the first one. We’ll give it give it an even shot. The first. Yeah. Used to be a doctor series. I didn’t catch that much. Is it supposed to be a series? Okay. Yeah. All right. So

[00:45:13.33] spk_1:
I think it’s still multiple episodes and like you know. All

[00:45:17.11] spk_0:
right, we’ll give it a shot. Give the first one a shot and see what they do.

[00:45:20.89] spk_1:
Okay. I think we should have non profit radio watch party. Have everybody tweet while they’re watching it or something, you know,

[00:45:30.69] spk_0:
we could do that with the hashtag uh Alright, thank you very much. Good to talk to you.

[00:45:32.35] spk_1:
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for the good conversation.

[00:45:44.79] spk_0:
Thank you amy sample word. Our technology and social media contributor And they are ceo of N 10 at a me sample ward dot org and at amy R S Ward. Thanks again.

[00:45:51.09] spk_1:
Thanks tony

[00:46:21.58] spk_0:
next week, Jeanne Takagi returns with risk management one and I am going to miss saying the activist activates activism. The activist activates activism. It’s very clever. It must it must have been written by the intern if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O

[00:46:24.58] spk_2:
our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is

[00:46:27.84] spk_0:
by Susan Chavez.

[00:46:54.98] spk_2:
Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for September 20, 2021: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

My Guest:

Pratichi Shah: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

Starting with your people, your culture and your leadership, how do you identify, talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit? My guest is Pratichi Shah, founder & CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions. (Originally aired 7/8/20)

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:01:54.44] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of chiari malformation if you pushed down on me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. You’re dismantling racism journey, starting with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you identify? Talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your non profit My guest is pretty itchy Shah, founder and Ceo at flourish Talent management Solutions. This originally aired July 8, 2020 Antonis take two planned giving in the pandemic era. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is you’re dismantling racism journey. It’s a real pleasure to welcome welcome. I’m not welcoming. I’m welcoming. I’m welcoming party Sheesha. She’s an HR strategist and thought leader with 25 years experience in all aspects of talent management. She’s making a face when I say 25 years human resources equity and inclusion and organizational development in the nonprofit and for profit arenas. She is founder and Ceo of flourish Talent management solutions. The company is at flourish tMS dot com Prodigy. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:56.44] spk_0:
Thank you so much. tony I appreciate being

[00:01:59.53] spk_1:
here. It’s a pleasure pleasure to have you. Um, and I’d like to jump right in if you’re if you’re ready um

[00:02:06.26] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:02:42.14] spk_1:
you know um racism and white privilege most often look very Benign on their face, I had a guest explain why use of the word professional in a job description is racist. I had a more recently I had a guest explain how not listening a salary range in a job description was felt racist to them. So how do we begin to uncover what is inequitable and right under our noses yet not visible on its

[00:02:45.54] spk_0:
face? Yeah. You know what often it starts with listening to state state a bit of the obvious. It really does started listening. It’s understanding for organizations. It’s understanding where we are. Um so it’s listening to the voices that may not have been centered. We’ve become better as organizations and being responsive to staff. I hear that a lot kind of hey this is what my staff is telling me. This is what we need to do. But the question is, are you responding to the voices that have possibly been marginalized? Likely been marginalized or oppressed in the past? General responsiveness is not the same as centering the voices that really need to be heard. So it’s first off just understanding where you are as an organization and listening to the people who may have experienced organization in a way that is different than you think.

[00:03:36.21] spk_1:
So when you say general responsiveness is not what not adequate, not what we’re looking for. What do you mean by that?

[00:04:35.54] spk_0:
So a lot of time the voices that are saying, hey something’s wrong or we need to do this or we need to do that are not the voices of those that have been marginalized and oppressed. They tend to be maybe the loudest voices they’re speaking maybe from a place of privilege and that needs to be taken into account. So being responsive, for instance, if the I call it kind of the almond milk issue being responsive to a staff that says in addition to dairy milk for coffee, this is back when we were in fiscal offices, um, we need almond milk to, but the question is is are we listening to the voices of those that weren’t able to consume the dairy milk? It’s not a perfect metaphor. It’s not a perfect analogy because that one ignores actual pain and it just talks about preference. But are we listening to the voices of people that have been impressed? Who have who have been, who have heard the word professional or professionalism wielded against them as a as an obstacle in their path to success in their path to career advancement. Those are the voices that we need to listen to, not the ones who have a preference for one thing or another.

[00:04:54.34] spk_1:
Okay, uh, let’s be explicit about how we identify who, who holds these voices? Who are these people?

[00:05:30.04] spk_0:
It’s people that have come from, it’s particularly right now when we talk about anti black racism, we need to center the voices of those from the black community. And that means those who have either, maybe not joined, not just not joined our organization for particular reasons, but maybe they have not joined our board, Maybe they have not participated in our programs, maybe they haven’t had the chance to. So it’s really from an organizational perspective, think of it as understanding what our current state is. So how does your organization move people up? Move people in, move people out if we don’t have the voices in the first place? Because maybe we’re not as welcoming as we should be, then what does the data tell us about? Who’s coming into our organization? Who is leaving our organization, Who is able to move up into our organization, what our leadership looks like, what our board looks like. So at times the fact that there is an absence of voice is telling in and of itself and our data needs to be able to explain what is going on. So that data needs to be looked at as well.

[00:06:38.64] spk_1:
So we need to very well, good chance we need to look outside our organization. You’re talking about people that we’ve turned down for board board positions, turned down for employment. Um, I’m not even gonna say turned down for promotion because that would presume that there’s still that that presumes are still in the organization, but I’m talking about, very likely going outside the organization. People who don’t work with us, who aren’t volunteering, who aren’t supporting us in any way, but we’ve marginalise them? We’ve cast them out before they even had a chance to get in?

[00:06:42.28] spk_0:
Potentially. Yeah, actually, probably, probably there is something that they have not found palatable or appealing about working with us or being a sensor or being uh, to your point of volunteer. So we need we need to look at why that’s happening.

[00:07:22.54] spk_1:
Okay. I’ve got to I got to drill down even further. How are we going to identify these people within within our organization as it is? How are we gonna figure out which people these are that we’ve marginalized these voices of color over the let’s just pick like in the past five years, what have we? Well, if we’ve done this, how do we identify the people? We’ve done it too.

[00:07:42.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a really it’s a complicated question. It will differ by organization, right? It differs by what your subsector is, how things flow within a subsector, the size of the organization. A really good place to start is understanding who has turned us down. Why have people left? So take a look at exit interviews. Even if you’re not doing exit interviews, we know that there is not always uh HR presence in a lot of our organizations. If there aren’t formal exit interviews. First of all, let’s make time for those because we need to understand why people are leaving. Um but if there isn’t a formal HR presence, what do we know about the circumstances under which someone left organization or said no to a job offer or said no to a board position or volunteer. It’s also important to ask, expanding our definition of stakeholder groups, engaging with all of our stakeholder groups as broadly defined as possible. And within those groups, understanding are we reaching out to a diverse audience to say why would you engage with us? Why would you not engage with us in any of those roles? So, yeah, it’s going to be a little bit harder to understand that people who are not there because they’re not there.

[00:08:51.84] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So all right. Um we go through this exercise and and we identify we we’ve identified a dozen people. They’re not they’re not currently connected to us. And uh it may be that they have had a bad experience with us. Yeah, I think they may have turned us down for employment because they got offered more money somewhere else. Um That could that in itself could be

[00:09:03.60] spk_0:
Alright, let’s

[00:09:57.24] spk_1:
that in itself could be uh not something other than benign. Um But let’s say they moved out of the state, you know, they were they were thinking about so so in some cases they may not have a bad have had a bad experience with us, but in but in lots of cases they may have they may have turned down that board position because they saw the current composition of the board and they didn’t feel they felt like, uh maybe being an offer a token slot or whatever, whatever it might be. I’m just, I’m just suggesting that some of the, some of the feelings toward the organization might not be negative, but some might very well be negative. Of the dozen people we’ve identified in all these different stakeholder, potential stakeholder roles that they could have had. Um, what do we reach out to them and say, how do we, how do we get them to join a conversation with an organization that they may feel unwelcome him?

[00:10:15.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think right now, especially we tried carefully. Um, we tried carefully and we honor the fact that they in fact might be getting that same question from many other other organizations, friends, colleagues, family members, in which people want to understand something, What we’re seeking to do is not be educated on the overall picture of white privilege, white supremacy of dominant narrative and dominant culture. That’s on us, that’s on all of us individually to understand that, that is not the, that is not up to the member of society, tell us that. Right? So what, what we want to understand is kind of, what did you experience with our organization? What was the good? What was the bad and first of all, do you even want to engage with us, Is this not a good time to do that because they’re already exhausted. I said to a colleague recently, you know, we can’t even understand the reality of what it’s like to live the right to live that reality and for many to lead the charge, right? Because they’re also showing leadership in the movement. So to we can’t even understand what those layers of existence or like. So I think it’s treading very carefully and should we have the ability to engage with someone because they have the space, the energy, the desire then I think it’s understanding and asking kind of what’s going on for us? What where did you find us either not appealing or where did you? Why did you not want to work with us in whatever capacity we were asking and it’s asking that question.

[00:11:34.80] spk_1:
Okay, well that’s further down, right? I’m just trying to get to like what’s the initial email invitation look like?

[00:11:54.24] spk_0:
It depends on the organization. It depends on the organization. It depends on the relationship. I wouldn’t presume to give words to that to be honest with you because because I think it also depends on the person that you’re asking. I don’t want to offer kind of a blanket response and inadvertently tokenize people by saying, oh, of course they’re going to want to engage with us. So I really think it’s dependent on the situation

[00:12:56.34] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want to hone your message? Turn to, we’ll work with you to find your core message and make it concise simple for the world to grasp. So that as they get you placed in major media, like you’ve heard me name, and also in podcasts in blogs, at conferences, on op ed pages. Your message, your voice will resonate. They’ll help you hone your message, find your voice and get it heard. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to your dismantling racism journey. What are you inviting them to do with you? Have a conversation, share your experience with us, Is it?

[00:13:44.14] spk_0:
Yes, essentially. I mean, that’s what it boils down to. But again, it really depends on what the organization is, Right? So this is your data collection moment. This is information collection. Where else are you collecting information? What what else do you know? What other steps have you taken to begin that educational process? Because there’s there’s kind of a dual purpose here, right? Is understanding who we are in, where we have contributed to structural racism, to pretend to a culture that does not support differing viewpoints, differing populations. That is in some ways upholding white supremacy or is completely holding upholding white supremacy and its culture. There’s that general education of understanding all of that, and then there’s understanding what our organization’s role is, right? So it’s both. And um, so it’s really highly dependent upon where is the organization? Uh case for us, who you’ve talked to? The head of Equity in the centre describes a cycle that is brilliant. Um around awake to woke to work. Where are you in that cycle? Are you? Where are you on? Um Where are you? And being pluralistic? Where are you? And being inclusive? All of those things depend on what you’ll ask and how you’ll reach out and if you even should reach out there maybe work that has to be done internally before that reach out can happen again. Just being considerate and sensitive of those who are willing to talk

[00:14:35.34] spk_1:
to you. Yeah. Okay. Was our guest for the last uh most recent special episode on this exact same subject. Thank you.

[00:14:37.78] spk_0:
Yeah. The organization is doing has been since its inception has been doing incredible work. K is leading that work um and both her words always contained wisdom and the products that they put out are extraordinary.

[00:15:09.44] spk_1:
How about in your work are you facilitating the kinds of conversations in your practice that you and I are talking about right now? Do you do you bring these outside folks in sometimes to to have these conversations

[00:15:53.24] spk_0:
sometimes? Yeah. Sometimes again being highly respectful of if they didn’t want to engage with us? Do they even want to talk to us right now. My work really is around um having an organization understand where it is right now. So what is its current state? What is the desire and future state? Right, so we know that we want to be a racially inclusive racially equitable organization likely that’s already been defined. But what does that mean for us as an organization If it means solely in numbers piece Right? Like we want to be more divorces aboard. Okay, that’s fine. But beyond that, how will we make ourselves have a board culture that is appealing to those people that we want to bring in to work with us? So it’s kind of defining both current state and understanding current state, defining future state and then developing the strategy to get there.

[00:16:09.14] spk_1:
Ok. And now you and I are talking about, you said, you know, we’re still data gathering. So we’re still defining the current culture as it exists. Right. Okay. Okay. And your work, you you centered around people. Culture and leadership.

[00:16:20.64] spk_0:
Mhm.

[00:16:24.34] spk_1:
Can we focus on leadership? I feel like everything trickles down from there.

[00:16:26.66] spk_0:
Very true.

[00:16:28.74] spk_1:
I don’t know. Are we okay? Are you okay starting with a leadership conversation or you’d rather start somewhere else?

[00:16:35.46] spk_0:
No, we can we can start that. That’s absolutely fine.

[00:16:48.84] spk_1:
Okay. Um so what what is it we’re looking for? Leaders of our listeners are small and midsize nonprofits to to commit you.

[00:16:54.74] spk_0:
I think it’s first of all committing to their own learning and and not relying on communities of color to provide that learning. Right? Again, going back to what we said earlier, it’s not relying on those who have been harmed or oppressed to provide the learning. So first of all, it’s an individual attorney that’s a given. Okay,

[00:17:25.14] spk_1:
can I like to, I like things like people. I like action steps. Okay, so when we’re talking about our individual journey, our own learning, I mean I’ve been doing some of this recently by watching Youtube, watching, um, focus on Youtube of course. Now now I can’t remember the names of people, but

[00:17:30.43] spk_0:
no Eddie Glaude.

[00:17:53.54] spk_1:
Um, so Eddie Glaude is a commentator on MSNBC. Uh, he’s just written a just released this last week a biography. Well, not so much a biography of James baldwin, but an explanation of baldwin’s journey around racism. Um, so that’s one example of, you know, who have been listening to? So we’re, so we’re talking about educating like learning from thought leaders around Yeah, privilege structures. Were reading books, listening to podcasts.

[00:18:00.12] spk_0:
Absolutely. It’s around, it’s around structures, but it’s also understanding things that we do all the time and organizations and how I as a leader might perpetuate those, right? So it’s sometimes the use of language to your point about the use of the word professional. Um, language tends to create our reality. So, and either language will build a bridge or not. So how do we use our language? How do we use our descriptors. How do I show up as a leader? Um, in my own kind of inclusion or not. So I think it is absolutely that is looking at thought leaders around things like structural racism around the use of language around people’s individual experiences to get that insight and depth because it’s not just an intellectual exercise. This is emotional too. And therefore has to have emotional resonance.

[00:18:51.24] spk_1:
Okay, thank you for letting me dive deeper into what

[00:18:55.21] spk_0:
Absolutely

[00:18:56.26] spk_1:
talk about personal, you know, your own personal journey, your own personal education, uh, fact finding and introspection. You’re talking about something, you know, and it’s no, no revelation. This is it’s

[00:19:09.42] spk_0:
difficult. If it’s painful.

[00:19:31.54] spk_1:
You know, you you’re very likely uncovering how you offended someone, uh, how you offended a group. Um, if you were, you know, speaking in public and something comes to mind or how you offended someone in meetings or, you know, multiplied. I don’t know how many times. I mean, this introspection is likely painful,

[00:19:39.44] spk_0:
likely likely. Yeah, more often, more often than not, I can’t I can’t really envision it not at some level being painful,

[00:19:43.27] spk_1:
but you’ve caused pain, you know, and there’s a recognition there.

[00:19:46.92] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:19:53.24] spk_1:
painful for you. But let’s consider the pain of the person or the group that

[00:19:54.35] spk_0:
you

[00:19:58.54] spk_1:
I don’t know offended, stereotyped. Mean, put off whatever it is, you’re

[00:20:01.84] spk_0:
that’s right. And that that’s why the work as much as I know, you know, to some degree, people want this to be work. That can be kind of project managed if you will or it can be put into a process or a series of best practices or

[00:20:14.08] spk_1:
benchmarks

[00:20:15.64] spk_0:
to some degree, not very much, but to some degree. Yes, absolutely. The some a little bit of that can happen, but that in and of itself is a bit of the dominant narrative, right? That in and of itself is kind of that that centering white culture. So I think what we need to understand is this is not just going to be again to sorry to be redundant, but it’s not just going to be intellectual.

[00:20:38.41] spk_1:
The

[00:20:39.04] spk_0:
fact that pain has been caused dictates that this be emotionally owned as well. It can’t be arm’s length. It can’t be just intellectually owned with the project plan that I keep over here on a chalkboard or something like that.

[00:21:02.64] spk_1:
Emotionally owned. Yeah. Thank you. All right. All right. So I made you digress and deepen what else, what else you wanna tell us about leadership’s commitment and and and the importance of leadership, commitment.

[00:23:24.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So it needs to be explicit. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be baked into the leadership. Whatever leadership structure the organization has, it needs to be an ongoing piece of that leadership. So it’s not a hey, let’s touch base on our quote inclusion initiative if it’s an initiative first of all, that’s not really doing the work anyway. Um, but it’s not something that lives separately from ourselves. Let’s have HR kind of check in on this or let’s have the operations person check in on this. That’s that’s not what this is about. It’s really, it’s authentically being owned by leadership to say? Yeah, I know it’s gonna be painful. And in looking at our organization, we’re gonna need to understand why our leadership is remarkably homogeneous. Which in the case of many nonprofits, it is if you take a look at Building Movement project and the unbelievably great work that they’ve done twice now, they just put out an update to their leadership work around how people move through the sector or don’t and how people, communities of color and people of color are represented in our leadership. We can begin to understand that by and large, they’re they’re not. Um though i that is an oversimplification in some ways. So I would encourage people to go to building movement project’s website and check out their work. Um but you know what, why are we so homogeneous? Why is there a board so homogeneous? It’s also unpacking and uncovering that. So to your point earlier about, you know, how do we look at people and how they move through the organization? This is where you look at who is present, right? Not just who’s not with us, but who is with us? How do people get Promoted? How does that system work does any does everyone have the same information? Is it a case of unwritten rules, is it a case of some people move up because they’re similar or they have 10 years of experience, which is something that we like to say, How do you get 10 years of experience if you have not been given those chances to begin with. So is their life experience that we can that we can begin to integrate in our conversations because life experience is equally valuable. Are we putting too much of a premium on higher education education and its formal kind of traditional form? Are we putting too much of uh of an emphasis on pedigree of other kinds of those? Those are the things that ultimately keep people out. So taking a look at leadership and having leadership commitment ultimately means looking at all of those things. There’s an overlap and how we look at leadership or people and or organizational culture.

[00:23:46.14] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. This is a it’s a continuum or

[00:23:48.53] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely. And the areas bleed into each other.

[00:24:10.04] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. Um and you know, I subsumed in all this I guess. I mean it’s okay for leaders to say, I don’t know where the where the journey is going, I don’t know what we’re going to uncover, but I’m committed to having this journey and leading it and and right. I mean, supporting it, but I don’t know what we’re gonna find. Right.

[00:24:16.74] spk_0:
Right, right. And that in and of itself can be uncomfortable for a lot of people and that’s that’s the kind of discomfort we need to get okay with.

[00:24:30.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Alright. Yeah. You know I had I had a guest explained that this is not as you were alluding to? Uh it’s not the kind of thing that you know, we’re gonna have a weekly meeting and will be these outcomes at the end of every meeting then we’ll have this list of activities and you know the you know, how come it’s not like that? How come we can’t do it like that?

[00:25:02.24] spk_0:
Yeah. Because we’re dealing with hundreds and hundreds of years of history and it’s because we haven’t been inclusive in the ways that we do things and we haven’t allowed whole selves to show up that it is um It’s it’s complicated and it’s messy because it’s human.

[00:25:05.74] spk_1:
All right, so it’s not gonna be as simple as our budget meetings

[00:25:08.84] spk_0:
today. Right. Absolutely different. Different kind of

[00:25:13.26] spk_1:
hard. Alright. We’re going to have an outcome at every at every juncture at every step or every week or every month or something. Yeah.

[00:25:19.48] spk_0:
That’s right. That’s right. And if we expect it to go that way, we are likely going to give ourselves excuses not to press on.

[00:27:00.64] spk_1:
It’s time for tony state too planned giving in the pandemic era. That’s my webinar coming up. I’m hosted for it by J. M. T. Consulting. Very grateful to them for hosting. We’re doing this on Thursday, September 30, 2 to 3 o’clock Eastern time planned. Giving in the pandemic era. So what am I going to talk about, what is planned? Giving? We’ve got to start with that right. What this thing is who your best prospects are? Where to start your program and the overarching. How does this all fit into our pandemic era? So I hope you’ll be with me to uh reserve your spot. It’s free. It’s a free webinar now by the way. But you do have to make a reservation. So to do that, you go to J. M. T. Consulting dot com Juliet mike, tango, J. M. T. Consulting dot com. Go to events and then pull down to lackluster speaker series and I’ll be the sole person listed there. They have an expert speaker series. That’s for everybody else. But now you have to actually uh, they were gracious enough to uh, not only host me but uh lump me in with the the expert speakers. So you do have to go to expert speaker series and you’ll find me right there. So I hope you’ll be with me Thursday September 30 two o’clock eastern

[00:27:02.44] spk_0:
for

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
planned giving in the pandemic era. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your dismantling racism journey. All right. So that’s what it’s not what what does it look like.

[00:28:42.04] spk_0:
Oh, it absolutely looks different for every organization. It absolutely looks different for every organization and that’s what’s so critical to understand. Kind of, where are we right now? Um, where are we? As far as all of the components of our organization. Right. So volatile again, volunteers ford staff culture. You said, you know, we were talking about people organization and leadership which is obviously a lot of my work. Um it is getting underneath all of those kinds of things to say. So who experiences our culture? How? Um so we do engagement surveys, Right. A lot of times we do engagement employee surveys, that kind of thing. Are we looking at those disagreeing disaggregated way? Are we asking different populations to identify themselves? And are we looking at what the experiences are by population? Are we asking explicit questions around whether or not you feel like you can be yourself in this organization, Whether you can provide dissenting opinions, whether you feel comfortable approaching your boss with feedback. Um whether you feel comfortable volunteering for particular work, whether you feel like you understand what a promotion or performance management processes, whether you get the support that you need or to what extent you get support that you need either from colleagues, boss leadership etcetera. So it’s looking at all of those things and then understanding are they being experienced differently by different communities within our organization.

[00:28:52.54] spk_1:
You mentioned disaggregate ng. That’s where the data is not helpful. Right?

[00:28:53.54] spk_0:
That is where we look at the data in terms of populations.

[00:28:57.94] spk_1:
Oh, Oh, aggregate, of course. Aggregating. I’m sorry.

[00:29:01.32] spk_0:
That’s OK.

[00:29:02.24] spk_1:
You’re stuck with a lackluster host. No, of course, yes. Aggregating

[00:29:06.02] spk_0:
early in the week.

[00:29:22.74] spk_1:
Uh Thank you. You couldn’t say early in the day, but thank you for being gracious. Okay. Yes. We uh we we want to disaggregate of course. Um and look by population and I guess cut a different way. I mean depending on the size of the organization. Um Age, race, age,

[00:29:26.74] spk_0:
race, ethnicity, um A physical ability, orientation. All of those need to be in the mix gender as well, including gender fluidity. So really looking at all of our populations and then understanding for these particular questions, is there a difference and how people experience our organization? We know then what we do know is that if there is a difference that there is a difference, we don’t know that there is causality unless there unless you’ve asked questions that might begin to illuminate that, right? But there’s always that difference between correlation and causality and then what you want to do is get underneath that to understand why the experience might be different and why it might change along lines of gender or race or ethnicity or orientation or physical ability.

[00:30:19.04] spk_1:
We uh we wandered, you know? But that’s that’s fine.

[00:30:22.60] spk_0:
I love it’s all part of the people in organization part

[00:30:31.84] spk_1:
people culture and um and leadership all coming together. Um uh Where do you want to go? Uh I mean I would like to talk about people. Culture and leadership. What’s a good what’s a good next one?

[00:32:30.34] spk_0:
Yes. Well, so this is what you’re doing, right? Is your collecting information and all of those three areas. Right and wanted. So a couple of things that I would add to that is when you look at people, you’re looking at their experiences, when you look at leadership, you’re looking at commitment makeup, structure, access, all of those kinds of things. When you’re looking at culture, you’re looking at how people experience the culture, right? And so what is happening? What’s not happening with stated out loud? What’s not stated out loud? What are the unwritten rules? There is also the piece that forms all of these things, which is operational systems. Right? So things like performance management, things like um where people may sit back when we were in physical offices, having access to technology, all of those kinds of things, particularly important now that we’re not in physical offices, so does everyone have access to the technology and information necessary to do their job, to do their jobs to do their work? So it is looking also at your operational side and saying how do we live our operational life? How do, how do people experience it, who do we engage with to provide services for our operations? How do we provide the services if you will, for lack of better term to our employees? So it’s also looking at that because operations ultimately permeates organizational culture, people and leadership, right? Because it kind of sustains all of that. So taking a look at that too. And finally, I would suggest again as part of this and as a wraparound is, what is the internal external alignment? Right. So I often hear people say, hey, you know what, this is the subsector we work in, people would think that we’re really equitable, but internally we are living a different life than what we are putting out to our stakeholders in our constituencies externally. So what is what is our external life and how does that need to inform our internal world? It’s not unusual for me to hear that the external life, the way we engage with stakeholders or the way we put out program programmatic work is actually may be further along to the extent that this is considered to be a continuum. It’s further along than the way that we’re living our life. Internal life

[00:32:53.10] spk_1:
dishonesty there disconnect that

[00:32:56.54] spk_0:
there’s a disconnect disconnect for sure. And possibly yeah, dishonesty. And hip hop, maybe even hypocrisy.

[00:33:09.04] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Alright, but again, all right, so now we’re looking like this is organizational introspection. There’s there’s individual learning and introspection. Now we’re at the organizational

[00:33:14.34] spk_0:
level, being

[00:33:15.78] spk_1:
honest with our, with our culture and our messaging,

[00:33:19.84] spk_0:
right? And and so what I tried to do is to help organizations kind of look at those things and decide how we might evolve, given the future that we’ve set our sights on and given some of the principles that we’ve laid out, how do we kind of get there? How do we, how do we evolve our systems, how do we evolve our people practices? How do we evolve our culture? So hence the need to look at all of these things that centered around people, Culture and leadership.

[00:34:07.54] spk_1:
What about the use of professional facilitator? Because well, first of all, there’s a body of expertise that someone like you brings uh but also help with these difficult conversations. Talk about the value of having an expert facilitator.

[00:35:20.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. So so you know, I think I think there’s always a level of objectivity and and kind of an inside look by an outsider that you that you benefit from. We go to experts for everything from, you know, our health to the extent that we have access to those experts, which is a whole different conversation on race and oppression. Um we we want that external voice. What I would say is it’s likely not going to be the same expert or the same facilitator and I say expert in quotes um for everything. So for instance, I am not the voice to be centred on educating an organization around structural racism. I don’t think I’m the right voice to be centered. I would rather send her voices like those at um race forward at equity in the center at those who have lived the results of 400 years of oppression. So you might want to call in someone for that discussion for that education. There are people that are better and more steeped in that and whose voices should absolutely be centered for that? Um You might want to call in a voice for White Ally ship because there is some specifics around that that we need to talk about without kind of centering White voices.

[00:35:27.85] spk_1:
I’m sorry White Ally ship.

[00:35:29.92] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:35:30.46] spk_1:
What is that?

[00:36:50.63] spk_0:
So if we think about the the organization right in our kind of culture and are people who who wants to half sees themselves as an ally and how can they be good? How can how can white people be good allies? Right. And how do we further and embed that in the culture? Um and then finally, so keeping that in mind that there are going to be different experts or different facilitators for different things, you know, who is going to be the person in my case, this actually might be is to help us evolve our culture and our systems so that we can be more equitable and take a look at that. Who’s going to provide the training because their skills necessary. Right to have these conversations. There are foundational communication skills, there is the ability to give feedback. Um there is the ability to communicate across cultures across genders across across groups. There is ability to be collaborative. So so also strengthening those skills while we continue to look at those things, but to think that all of this help is going to come from one source is not ideal and likely it’s even inappropriate because everyone can’t be everything. I don’t try to be the voices that I can’t be. It’s inappropriate for me to do that. Mhm.

[00:36:54.73] spk_1:
What what else do you want to, what do you want to talk about given the level where that we’re at? We’re trying to help small and midsize nonprofits inaugurate a journey around racism and white privilege.

[00:38:42.82] spk_0:
I think. I mean, look, first of all, I hear a lot of organizations say like what what is the access point? Like what do I get started doing? We put out a statement um in some cases we are experiencing some dissonance between the statement that we put out or the programmatic work that we do and the way that we’re living internally. So it is really understanding kind of where are we now, through all of the ways that we’ve been talking about over the last several minutes, where are we now? What is it that we’re not doing that we should be doing? What is it that we need to be doing? How do we define for us? If we have an equitable culture, if we are living racial equity, what does that look like for us? Um how does that affect our programmatic work? How does that affect our operations? Everything from our finances to our people processes to when we’re back in an office, even our physical setup, how how does that affect us and how would we define that future state? So it’s understanding what is my current state, What is my future state and then understanding how we get there and it’s likely going to be a long, all of the areas that we said right? So individual attorneys, some group and individual skill building, um, some evolution of our systems and some understanding of kind of how we can support each other and support ourselves for those that are that affiliate with a particular group. Um, and then kind of moving us along to that place of where we want to be. So it is, it is understanding where you are that determines what your access point is. But I would say if you if you have done the work of putting out this statement then there then look for look for where you’re not living that statement internally.

[00:38:55.72] spk_1:
That sounds like a very good place to Yeah. To start your search for for an access point because it’s so recent, Your organization has probably said something in the past 5, 6 weeks.

[00:39:00.82] spk_0:
Absolutely. And

[00:39:01.79] spk_1:
close are you hewing to that to that statement?

[00:39:20.22] spk_0:
Exactly. And we are incredibly, I would say important the use of the term but almost fortunate that so many thought leaders have been kind and generous enough to share with us their thoughts on this moment. So not just within the sector, but all the way across our society. So many people have taken the time and the patients and the generosity amidst everything else that they’re living through. They have agreed to share their thoughts, their leadership, their expertise with us? So there is a ton of knowledge out there right at our fingertips and that’s a, that’s another really great place to start and to center the voices that most need to be heard

[00:39:52.72] spk_1:
at the same time. You know, we are seeing beginnings of change. Uh institutions from Princeton University to the state of Mississippi

[00:40:14.41] spk_0:
right? Absolutely. To hopefully, uh, you know, the unnamed Washington football team and to Nascar and places where we, I didn’t know that change necessarily was possible, but we we are saying change and and the important thing is to not be complacent about that change,

[00:41:18.61] spk_1:
right? And not and also recognize that it’s just the beginning, you know, removing confederate statues, um taking old glory off the Mississippi flag. These are just beginnings, but but I think worth worth noting. I mean worth recognizing and celebrating because the state of Mississippi is a big institution and it’s been wrestling with this for, I don’t know if they’ve been wrestling for centuries, but that flag has been there for that just that long, right? 18. Some things I think is when that flag was developed. So it’s been a long, it’s been a long time coming. So recognizing it for what it is celebrating it to the extent that the, yeah, to the extent that represents the change. Beginning of the beginning of change? All right. Um, well, you know, what else, what else, what else do you want to share with folks at this, you know, at this

[00:42:02.10] spk_0:
stage? You know, I think, I think the main thing is um, dig in uh, we need to dig in on this. We need to dig in on this because in the same way that that we have been living this society societally for so long are organizations many times are microcosms of society. So if we think as an organization that were exempt or that were already there, we’ve arrived at like a post racial culture, that’s not the case. That’s just not the case. Um, so where do you want to dig it? Where do you want to dig in, chances are good. You are doing some version of looking at issues within your organization, whether it’s your annual survey, if you do it annually or whatever in which you can use that information to begin this journey. So dig in from where you are, it’s one of those things that if you’re waiting, if you’re waiting for kind of the exact right time or further analysis to begin the journey again, it’s not, it’s not based solely on analysis. There is a there is certainly information, there’s data that needs to be understood. But if we’re waiting for endless analysis to happen or to kind of point us to the right time that’s not going to happen. The intellectualism needs to be there. But again, as we said in the path, as we said a few times during the course of our conversation? This is about emotional residents and an emotional ownership and a moral obligation. So, dig in dig in wherever you are right now,

[00:43:15.10] spk_1:
what if I’m trying within my organization? Uh, and I’m not the leader, I’m not even second or third tier management or something, you know, how do I elevate the conversation? Uh, I presume it helps to have allies. What if what if I’m meeting a resistance from the people who, who are in leadership?

[00:43:50.50] spk_0:
I think look for the places where they’re made, not the resistance, right? So look within the organization. Um, if there is resistance at a particular level, then you know, who do you have access to in the organization where there isn’t that? And I think, I think starting out not assuming that you have solutions if you have expertise in this area, if you have lived through the oppression as a member of a community that has lived through the impression particularly black community, I think you’re coming from one place, if you are if you are not in that community and saying that you have expertise, I think you have to be a little bit more circumspect about that and introspective about what you can offer in this vein. Um, and I think, I think we want to look for the places where there is some traction, I think in most organizations, it’s not unusual to be getting the question right now

[00:44:25.59] spk_1:
and what is the I don’t want to call it outcome. What, what, what what can the future look like for our organization if we do embark on this long journey?

[00:44:42.89] spk_0:
Yeah, cultures that are equitable in which people can show up as their whole selves. Um, in which there is not only one right way to do things, which tends to be a very kind of white dominant Western culture, linear sequential way of managing work, of managing communications, etcetera. But that in fact work can be approached in a number of different ways and that solutions can be approached in a number of different ways. People get to show up and give their all to these missions that we all hold very near and dear. And so they are able they’re empowered. They are able they are celebrated without sticking to a set of preconceived guidelines or preconceived, unwritten or written rules that don’t serve us anymore. Anyway,

[00:45:24.49] spk_1:
when you started to answer that, I saw your face lighten up. You’re I don’t know, it was a smile. It just looks like you’re faced untended. Not that you’re

[00:45:31.70] spk_0:
nervous. Your face changed

[00:45:34.58] spk_1:
started to answer the where we could be.

[00:45:37.19] spk_0:
Who doesn’t like to imagine that future?

[00:45:43.99] spk_1:
Yeah, it was it was palpable. All right. All right. Are you comfortable leaving it there?

[00:45:46.59] spk_0:
I think so, I think so. What have we not covered that we need to cover for your listeners,

[00:45:52.59] spk_1:
you know that better than I

[00:45:54.68] spk_0:
for

[00:45:55.65] spk_1:
the place there at getting started.

[00:45:57.76] spk_0:
That’s fair. Look, you know what this is, this is the future that is written with many voices. And while I think I can be helpful, I don’t presume to be the voice that has all the answers I definitively don’t, I definitively don’t. And so what we have not covered is actually probably not known to me, but I dare say someone, someone out there does know that and they will likely be putting their voice up, which is exactly what we want.

[00:46:24.04] spk_1:
We will be bringing other voices as well. Alright,

[00:46:26.99] spk_0:
no doubt. Yeah,

[00:46:39.78] spk_1:
Patricia, she’s founder and Ceo of flourished Talent management Solutions and the company is at flourish tMS dot com. PCI thank you so much. Thank you very, very much.

[00:46:42.48] spk_0:
tony thank you. Thank you for opening up this space and having the conversation

[00:47:18.68] spk_1:
a pleasure. Uh it’s a responsibility and uh happy to live up to it. Try trying next week the activist activates activism with Amy sample ward if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez.

[00:47:23.33] spk_0:
Mark Silverman is

[00:47:51.68] spk_1:
our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great, Yeah, what?