Lou Kotsinis: Thrive Amid The Digital Transformation
The digital marketing we grew up with is no more, mostly due to Google AI Overview and all the other Artificial Intelligence surrounding us. We’ve talked about this and Lou Kotsinis brings his perspective. What is zero-click marketing and how can your nonprofit exploit it? What new role does your website play and what are best practices now? Plus much more. Lou is CEO and co-founder of BCS Interactive.
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Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host, and I’m the pod father of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Happy New Year Can we still say that? We’re publishing on the 19th of January. I, I, we can still say it. I, I believe. I hope we can. So happy New Year. I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be thrown into Bartonella Henssela if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer Kate, to introduce it. Hey, Tony. I love the enthusiasm with the new year, but we’re 2 weeks in. It’s a big deal. All right, go ahead, go ahead. Here’s what’s going on. Thrive amid the digital marketing transformation. The digital marketing we grew up with is no more, mostly due to Google AI overview and all the other artificial intelligence surrounding us. We’ve talked about this, and Lou Kotsinis brings his perspective. What is zero-click marketing, and how can your nonprofit exploit it? What new role does your website play and what are best practices now? Plus, much more. Liu is CEO and co-founder of BCS Interactive. On Tony’s take 2. How to be a nonprofit radio guest. Here is thrive amid the digital marketing transformation. It’s a pleasure to welcome Lou Katsinis to nonprofit Radio. Lou is CEO and co-founder of BCS Interactive, a digital marketing agency for the nonprofit and educational communities. Since 2011, they’ve helped organizations like the World Childhood Foundation, the Seeing Eye, and the New Jersey Conservation Foundation. He’s a fellow Jersey boy. You’ll find the company at BCSinteractive.com and Lou is on LinkedIn. Lou, welcome to Nonprofit Radio. It’s great to be here, Tony. Thanks for having me. Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure. Thank you. I, I, you’ve been following for a long time and glad to have your, uh, your, your wisdom now shared with, uh, with our listeners. Thanks so much. Thank you. Uh, digital marketing. But, we’re, we’re talking about, uh, a transformation in the, in the field. Why don’t you, uh, give us an overview of your, your thinking, and then we’ll dive in. Sure. So it’s not, I don’t think it’s a transformation. I think it’s a seismic transformation, you know, what, what I like to tell people is that the digital marketing. That you and I grew up with is really fast becoming a thing of the past, right? It’s really no more. And what I mean by that is, you know, the model for the last 15 years or so was that the website was the end all be all of your digital marketing efforts, right? You were, you were drawing all of your attention to the site and it was all about. Links, it was all about, you know, sharing links with other people, putting links into social media, putting them into email just to get a lot of traffic and what was called authority to that website, and then Google would reward us if you had an authoritative site and put you at the top of the search engine rankings. You remember the 10 blue links, right? Well, A funny thing happened, you know, uh, uh, starting a few years ago, we started to notice cracks in that particular model, and you could notice that because Google was starting to take over answers for themselves. I don’t know if you recall this, but wherever it could basically scrape data, and let’s, you know, think whether. Restaurants, e-commerce, it would start to create these panels where you really didn’t have to leave Google anymore. You just get everything done right there. I, I, I think of it, uh, like USPS tracking or FedEx tracking. They would just open a window in the, in the Google search results. If you searched USPS tracking, they would just open a tracking window for you. That’s it. That’s it. And then that was obviously a, a business play. It was a smart. Strategy on their part to try to monetize all of these eyeballs coming to them and then that would start to gradually turn into what we call featured snippets or in the industry we call it position zero, which is they would capture what they felt was the best answer based on the web the websites that they have seen and just put the answer up there and so it didn’t really make a person want to click out you just found what you wanted as soon as you went to Google so. That to me began the shift because then that was the precursor to AI search and I know you had George Weiner on a few weeks back so I won’t get too much into that, but if you think about what AI search is, it basically not only gives you the answer, but then you’re gonna have a conversation based on that answer. So there’s really no incentive to click out of there, and that’s, you know, by design, you know, some of those products allow you to click out and will give attribution, but you can start to see where things are going, right? People are, are going to websites less and less. But what is the icing on the cake there is this trend that we’re seeing, and I don’t think it’s a trend, it’s here to stay, which is called zero click marketing, and we can get into that in detail, but you know, these three forces together are making the website as the central component. Again, a thing of the past. Now it doesn’t mean the website’s going away, right? In my opinion, what is happening is it’s, it’s elevating, it’s becoming more important, but to a segment of the people that are coming to the site, and we can talk about that as well too, but I, you know, I think it’s important for your listeners who haven’t thought about this, and I know we’re talking to small and medium, um, medium sized nonprofits that, you know. During your busy day where you’re worried about a million different things, you know, programs, funding, what the government is doing, what have you, you also have to start to think about, don’t think just that your website is where you want to get people to go. I, I, I don’t think many are thinking that way, but, but the trend is happening so fast and it’s so severe is not the right word, deep, that it’s something that you really have to pay attention to so you don’t fall behind. OK. Yeah. And, and just to reinforce, yeah, for many years, you wanted to drive people to the website as the central, the central focus for, for information about your work, uh, certainly where to give, right? You know, uh, social would Social would direct folks there. I mean, that was kind of, you know, there was a hub and spoke model. You would, you would send all, all your, all your owned media and even earned media that you got, uh, you know, would send people to the, to the site. OK. Um. Where, you know, is there, is there now a central focus or it’s, it’s really just us now managing what AI. Thinks of us or am I or am I oversimplifying it, it’s so it’s, it’s fragmented, right? There is no real central focus. I’ve heard another, um, really good agency talk about it is instead of the funnel model, it’s kind of like the pinball model, right? You, you, you, there’s a, a, you can be working in social, you can be working in AI search, you can be doing blogs, you can be doing video, you can be doing offline marketing. So the idea of attribute attributing it to one. Component is becoming more and more difficult. AI search right now is the thing I’m gonna call it the trendy thing, but you know, again, it’s a trend that’s here to stay. But you know when we can get into this a little bit deeper, but, but it’s really a matter of understanding who your audience is and where they reside and starting to put emphasis on those platforms in the meantime. You do need to have a strong website and we’ll talk. I wanna talk a little bit more about what that entails. That’s a whole separate conversation. You do need to be optimized to be found in AI search. You do need to be optimized to be found in traditional search because it’s still a thing. Um, and you need to have your email marketing in place, so it is a tall order, but if you look at it as multiple different components and you’re addressing them on a daily basis or a weekly basis, and then over time you start to see what the winners are if you’re paying attention and, and, um, you know, looking at your data over time you can start to see where the, the main channels are and direct more attention there. OK, OK, um. In terms of the data, I Google Analytics still valuable, right? 100%, still essential, 100%. But you know, we, we, you know, you also wanna combine that with the other data that you’re getting, you know, Facebook Insights is a very simple, um, and, and, and effective component, um, you know, the other channels, YouTube, of course, provides analytics. All of them really do, and again it’s, I’m, I’m kind of self-conscious talking that way because I know most nonprofits don’t have the capacity to be able to spend time doing that, um. You know, in, in a perfect world what you’re doing is you’re taking data from all these channels and building a picture and you’re combining that with your qualitative, right? Qualitative is a fancy word for any surveys that you’re doing, any trends that you’re seeing on social media, any conversations you’re having with your best donors, and that really puts together the picture of your ideal audience member, you know, any donor data that you have, but, you know, to simplify things, Google Analytics is, you know, a, a very valuable tool, and if you know how to use it. Um, you know, that should be adequate to give you kind of a, a path forward. Is there a, a, a, an analytics add-on or app that you, you recommend beyond, or a couple of apps that you recommend beyond what Google Analytics will give us? There are, there are, see, as an agency, I’m a bit, we’re a bit biased because we use one of the Google tools called Looker Studio, and it, they provide, it captures that information. You can bring in other information as well too, and it gives you a very nice picture of things, um, so we don’t really use any apps outside of that. Again, I mean the. If, if you’re, if you’re taking 2 or 3 of your social channels and you can easily access the data there, and if you’re going into Google Analytics, and if you’re going into your email, um, Programming getting data from there and starting to to collect that that’s where the picture comes from um you know there’s a tool called Data Box which I, I would, I could recommend that um basically collects all of this data and puts it into one picture you know Looker is another one. These tend to be a little bit more advanced if a nonprofit doesn’t have the wherewithal to spend a lot of time doing it so unfortunately I don’t have a simple answer for that, but I can certainly. You know, get back to you on it. OK. Well, those two, those two, and, and again, you know, your, your caveat that, uh, believe me, I’m, I’m very conscious of our small and mid-size nonprofit, uh, listeners, uh, may not be able to go deeper, but, but if you have a, uh, if you have an analytics, uh, consultant perhaps or a digital marketing consultant, or if you do have an IT person, you know, uh, a little, a little advanced. Uh, info, uh, is, is, is valuable for those, for those folks who can, who can take advantage of. That, that’s actually the perfect solution, you know, having an individual that is at least willing to learn on that front. It could even be a very smart intern or a volunteer that works for you just on that front, but those are the channels that you want to look at. If you’re doing that, you’re doing more than 90% of the nonprofits out there. If you’re looking at Google Analytics and you’re looking at your social, you’re looking at email and you’re looking at donor information and starting to draw pictures and correlations from that. And you know, slow and steady wins the race here. It’s not something that you do once a quarter. It’s something that you’re trying to look at once a week and painting a picture in that way. And it’s, it’s more about driving the habit of doing it, right, right. And you never really achieve an end state. You just, you’re just constantly iterating, changing, testing, right? That, that’s exactly right. But also let’s think about it, you know, if we start at the beginning of the year just doing that in a very simple methodical way. Imagine where you’ll be at the end of the year in terms of understanding who you’re speaking to and who your best donors are and who your best constituents are. Now, as a longtime nonprofit radio listener, you’re probably aware that we have, um, jargon jail on nonprofit radio. You raised a zero-click marketing, which is a serious, uh, jargon jail transgression. But I knew we were gonna, I, I didn’t call you on it in the instant because I knew we were gonna dive in and, uh, you’d be eligible for, for a quick, uh, Um, parole, parole from, you know, coming on to this, I, I made sure I wanted to avoid jargon jail so that if you remember, I gave a, um, I gave a disclaimer in the beginning when I said zero click marking, I said, but we’ll talk about that later. Yes, you did. Yeah, all right, yeah, so, all right, so it’s safe enough. I mean you’re, you’re safe from, uh, jargon jail, especially in New Jersey prisons. Uh, I don’t know, I don’t know what the state of, uh, especially local, local prisons in New Jersey. We’re gonna talk a little about our New Jersey, uh, shared background, but we’ll, we’ll get there. Um, all right, so, so. Define your, your zero click marketing and, and what, you know, obviously what, what it means for our listeners. Sure. So I wish I could say I, I came up with this term because it’s, it’s brilliant, but this was actually coined by a woman named Amanda Natividad at a, at a company called Spark Toro, uh, which basically created that, that’s an analytics product as well too, but that’s, it’s, it’s more for audience understanding anyway. So if you follow Amanda’s work, what this really means is that people are now spending their time on apps and on social media channels rather than going directly to, uh, websites and, and when they’re there, they’re not necessarily clicking out. They’re basically staying there all day. And you can think about this, Tony, anecdotally, like, I don’t know how you operate online, but for example, I, I like Instagram, and when I go to Instagram, I’m scrolling, I’m looking, I’m learning. I’m not really thinking of going to. Some website, right? And again, that’s, that’s all by design because these social channels have created kind of walled gardens and they want you to stay there to the point where they really disincentivize you from, from clicking out. They will penalize you. So for example, if I’m, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn as you do too. If you put a link into your post that goes to a third party site, that’s going to deprecate the reach. That post is not going to go as far because they want you to stay within LinkedIn. Instagram is another example. You can’t even put links into Instagram. You have to put them into your bio at the top. So this is, this is the concept of zero click marketing and it’s where, it’s where we are. And you know, as someone who builds websites for a living and loves websites, I still don’t see this as a huge negative. I wanna talk to you at some point about what the new website means, but as far as Zero Click is concerned, I think this is a huge opportunity for nonprofits because I don’t know if you agree with me that the, the strongest asset that a nonprofit has is their story. It’s why I got into this industry to begin with, because there’s always a beautiful human story there that by definition you can move individuals, you’re, you’re changing the world and zero-click marketing allows you to flex that muscle. You can go into a channel, say Facebook, and there’s all sorts of things that you can. be doing that you can interact with the community, you can put out great content, you can put video, you can experiment. So I think framed in that way, it becomes a big um opportunity for nonprofits and not something to kind of shy away from. I mean they, they, you know, you’re gonna have to roll with this because this is where things are going. I think it’s a longer definition than you wanted, but no, no, sorry, you, you, you, you know, you kept yourself out of jargon jail. Um, it’s so, all right, so can we drill down to some tactics? I mean, what, what, what should we be doing on our, on the different sites? Uh, what should we be saying? So, well, let me just pull back a bit and say, first of all, it depends, right? It depends what niche you’re in. It depends who your audience is. So, So the, you know, how we advise clients is the first thing you have to do, and this is with any marketing initiative, whether it’s branding or websites or zero click marketing is you have to understand who your key audience members are, who your community is, and we just touched base on that a little bit. You wanna do a combination of qualitative, which is, you know, kind of like psychologically understanding, speaking to individuals, doing surveys. Uh, doing focus groups if possible, you know, if you have a team, having them interact with donors and constituents and understanding and starting to paint a persona really of who that audience is, and then you back that up with data that you’re getting from analytics, you know, what pages are people going to, what are they interested in, where are they coming from? Facebook can do that even more, right? What gender are we looking at or for the most part, what’s the age group, and that will really start to paint a picture once you have that, you should combine it. With another critical thing that a nonprofit needs, which is a really strong understanding of your messaging and your position. In other words, what, what is your brand? What makes you different from everybody else? Once you have those two elements, that’s how you start to craft the story that’s going into these channels, so. Again, it depends on what your organization is. Like for New Jersey Conservation Foundation, they’re all about preserving open space here in New Jersey. So they are attracting outdoors people. Uh, there is still, there is still open space in New Jersey. I know. Right, it’s tragic. I know because we’re gonna, we gotta defeat the stereotype that, you know, New Jersey all looks like what you see when you land at Newark Airport. It does not. We are, we, uh, it’s, it’s oil refineries and tanks and, and a major airport and there’s, uh, There’s these, these giant claws on the, on the port of Newark. They’re picking up cargo, uh, you know, the, the, whatever, the, the cargo trailers off ships. Can we, can we, uh, can we defeat that stereotype that, uh, all of New Jersey looks like the, the greater New Newark and, and Newark. Airport area, you know, we, we get such a bad rap. I love this state. We have so much going on, you know, not just the commerce that you talked about, but we have a beautiful shore and we have beautiful, we have tons of horses and then, you know, anyway, so the point is that New Jersey is, there is open space and conserved. 100%, and New Jersey Conservation Foundation is helping on that front. But, so, you know, if you understand their audience and you understand what they’re trying to preserve more and more space, so they’re catering to that audience. So. If you think about their, let’s again, I’m just using Facebook, but you know they’ll talk about their latest efforts to preserve open space. They’ll talk about different types of wildlife. They will feature trails that people can go on. They, they create an immersive experience so that people, it’s not just about their events or an award they’ve won or fundraising, it’s about creating a community. Um, of, of that, that people are interested in coming back to. So again, I just, it, it’s a, it’s a simple process, but it’s hard to execute because it requires discipline, right? Understand who you’re going after, understand your story and continually refine that. And then from there the tactics are really, Tony, they become kind of simple. You can experiment, putting out video, you can, you know, it, it. If you run a healthcare organization and you receive external funding, well, maybe then you need to put up white papers or you need to put up data showing impact, you know, it’s, it’s a matter of understanding what it is you do and what drives people and then putting out different pieces of content based on that and then iterating. You have to look to see what’s working. Are people clicking? Are people engaging? Are we growing in terms of followers? And then, you know, when you’re looking at one channel, perhaps start to experiment in another, um. You know, you should begin in the areas where you already have strength, but over time, you want to start to move out and try to explore different channels if capacity allows for it. And then explain how all this is going to help us as folks use uh chat GPT or, or other, uh, you know, uh, other AI tools. To, to do their search. How, how is this, how is the, is it sort of big, sort of big picture? How is all this gonna help us, help AI think well of us as, as authoritative and, and worth giving to in our sector? Sure. Well, you know, I can’t account for where AI is getting their information. I think George had a better grasp of that when, when you spoke to him, but in general, You know, it’s fed its own data set, and it is also crawling the web, and it is also looking at different social media sites. Uh, and remember, when AI search, what they’re concerned about is not links, but brand mentions. That’s what they want. It’s almost a PR play, right? So in that regard, you would think that social media plays a big role there. I know in certain industries, Reddit, the channel Reddit is a huge driver of traffic to AI search, so. You, you, you have to think that more content out there on different channels is better for you, because over time all of these channels are going to be, you know, viewed as something that AI will take in. So that’s, that’s one way to think of it, but the other way to think of it is, as good as AI is, you’re not spending all your time there. You still want to see pictures of kids and puppies and kittens and so you’re going to Facebook or, you know, you’re going to Instagram because it has a visual model that’s kind of unparalleled, or you’re going to YouTube because you wanna watch the. You know, YouTube is now, I think the most popular streaming channel out there, above and beyond anything else. So, so I, I, I understand your question is, you know, how does this contribute to AI? It’s going to, if it isn’t already doing that, so the more the merrier, but also understand that AI is just one component in the entire ecosphere. It’s the really big one now, but I don’t think it’s going to consume everything. I want to pull on one thread that you mentioned, just briefly, uh, surveys as a, as a way of understanding who your audience is, where they are. Share some of your advice. We have, we haven’t had anybody talk recently about, you know, just like overall survey, survey strategy, you know, in terms of length, what, what to ask, how to, how to, how to get the surveys out to folks. What’s your advice? So first of all, the, the technology has moved to a point where it’s so easy to do this, and it doesn’t have to be this very formal thing where you have to pull in, you know, and I mean you can do that, it’s going to help you if you have an expert that does that sort of thing. We don’t do many of them, but you know, if you think of the evolution where you had to mail out a survey, you had to do a formal focus group, none of that really matters anymore. I mean you can just go through a MailChimp type product and put a survey together there and mail that out, or you can actually just do it in public, you know, LinkedIn makes it very easy. To do a survey or, you know, um, you know, it’s, it’s not the, the, the most kind of empirically, um, you know what, what’s the word I’m looking for here, it’s, it’s not, it’s not like a, a, a professional level, uh, most statistically valid. Correct, correct, but it’ll, it’ll give you a good general, um, you know, a good general feedback in terms of what you’re looking for. Uh, and again, you know, what you’re asking depends on what your, your needs are. What, what we’ve learned over the years in terms of just putting forms on websites is the more you put on there, the less response you’re going to get. So I would think carefully about, um, you know, the specific answers you’re trying to get, and then make it as simple as possible and make it something because if you think about your own busy workday. Who has time to do these things? Like every time I call, let’s say my doctor, and it ends with, will you take a few minutes to, uh, fill out this or, or complete this survey, I always say yes and I always hang up on that. So, so it’s like, you know, um, that’s neither here nor there, but just keep it simple and keep it, no, but you’re, uh, like your, your, your tactic is what you, you, you want the person you’re talking to. To think that they, I don’t, I don’t know if the people you’re talking to actually know what your response was, yes or no, I’ll, I’ll take the survey or I won’t. But I always, I always wonder, do they know? And then, so you’re trying to get the best performance out of the customer service person because you say, yes, I’ll take the survey after my call, and then, and then you shut off the call. And then, you know, you know, I realize how cynical that sounds when I say, Well, the best performance has already been given to me, and then I just say, yeah, yeah, I’ll do it. And then I don’t pay any attention to it, but you’ve now guilted me into, into changing that. So the next time I get on, I’ll, uh, yeah, I, I don’t, all right. I, I’d say no, I’m honest. I, I don’t, I don’t take the survey, but I, I am honest about it. I’ll, I’ll say no. And then, and then I, I get whatever customer service I get. But I, but I actually, I don’t, I don’t think people, I don’t think the people you’re talking to, I don’t think they do know whether this is gonna be a survey respondent, uh, or, or not. OK, I’m sorry. No worries. Yeah, um. Let’s talk a little about your background. Uh, you know, you’re a, you’re a percussionist. But do you have a, a degree in music? No, no, I don’t, uh, and percussionist is a nice formal way to say it, but I’ve just been playing drums ever since I was, uh, goodness, when did I start? I was about 8 years old, so I would have made 1980, so it’s, it’s a really long time and it’s just like anything anyone has a passion for, you know, people say, how did you get into it? I don’t know. I just, I, you know, I had, I had, I was growing up in a period where playing drums in a rock band was, you know, the, the end all be all. You have this, this amazing music scene, so that influenced me. I was a big Beatles guy ever since I was a kid because I had relatives that were listening to it. And that got me into it. I had relatives that played, and then what it’s like, you know, it’s like golfers have told me this, like once you hit a really good shot, it’s in your DNA, it’s in your blood, and you just can’t stop thinking about it. And that’s the way I am with, with drums. I cannot explain to you why. But you know, I’ll play and then I’ll walk away and just look at the set for a minute. I just, you know, I just, I’m, you know, I’m, I’m very passionate about it. So, so yeah, I’ve had the good fortune of, um, working with some really good teachers. I have a good one in New York City now and it’s a continual, continual learning process. And then, you know, I went from rock as a young man. Into now jazz, which for me is a real challenge. It’s, you know, I know it bores a lot of people. I know and it’s not a trendy thing by far anymore, but it really makes you work as a musician, that the men that played this and the women that played this type of music were really skilled, and I don’t think they got the credit, um, that they deserved. Now the percussionist component came in because my daughter. is a violinist, she’s about 15 now, and so she started about 10 years ago. And as I got involved in her workshop, they were looking for drummers to sit in on the symphonies there. So, so I picked that up as well too. And now once or twice a year I’ll perform in that, in that symphony, and that’s really cool because you’re doing like Tchaikovsky and, and, and really interesting pieces where you’re, you’re forced to learn to read and, and play different types of instruments. So it’s, it’s really a lot of fun. If you were. Probably 30, maybe 40 years older, you might have, uh, had the good fortune of having, uh, Tony Martignetti Senior as, as a drum instructor because he used to, my dad used to go, this is in the Ridgefield, New Jersey area, um, used to do private lessons. He, he taught in public schools for many years. Uh, not only instrumental, but also vocal music in, in elementary schools in Ridgefield. And then a couple of nights a week for some extra cash, he would do private lessons in people’s homes. And this is when a private, like an hour lesson was like $10 or $15. And he came to your home. You didn’t even have to, you know, um, so, but you didn’t, uh, you’re, you’re, you’re not, you’re not old enough to have had Tony Martignetti Senior as a, as a drum instructor. But you know, there are, there are other good ones. There are, there are others. He, he’s, he wasn’t the soul. Outstanding instructor, uh, for, for drumming in New Jersey. There, there are others, so I’m, I’m not surprised you, you’ve had others. I, I would have loved to have met him, you know, based on, on what you’re telling me and having met, having met you. What was that like for you growing up? Was it something that like you were interested in? Did it make your mother go crazy because of how loud it was? Cause I get that all the time. And what was that experience like? You know what I remember most about my dad’s drumming and, and, uh, aside from the, the, the private lessons he did, he played in some, some bands, mostly like sort of wedding and bar mitzvah type bands. Um, but what I remember is all, I loved, I loved helping him set up the drum set and take it down and pack it for a gig that, you know, a Saturday night wedding or something. I, I loved the chrome, all the shiny chrome and all the, all the knobs that you had to turn to get the, to get the, the bass tom-tom onto the, onto the bass drum. And you had to secure it in there and helping him set up the high hats, you know, for his left foot, the high hat symbals. There’s, there’s the, there’s all the chrome, all the shiny chrome, and it’s heavy and, and he had this big case that he packed all the chrome in and his snare drum went in there and the snare drum stand was all chrome. And I loved like pulling the legs out of the, the snare drum stand. And just setting it on its three legs or, or folding it up to help him get ready for a gig and just, it, it was like the, it was the chrome and the, and the turning of the knobs. And I just loved seeing the set. Now, his set was, um, Ludwig. He had a Ludwig set and he used, uh, Ziljan’s symbols. Does the name Joe Morello sound? familiar to you? Have you heard that name before? No, no. So there was a band in the 50s and 60s called the Dave Rubreck Quartet, and Dave Rubrik, yeah, I know. You would recognize the music, obviously, um, if you, if you heard him, and his drummer was Joe Morello, and Joe Morello, he, he passed away in New Jersey. I don’t think he was born here, but your father would have absolutely known him, and he played Ludwig. He was an amazing, amazing drummer, and, and as you’re painting that picture of all the chrome and, and we haven’t even talked about the wood yet, I don’t know how far you want to get on this marketing, uh, discussion, but, but the wood itself is, is a whole other topic and the science behind it and the sound behind it. So, you know, I completely relate to the fascination that you have with the different components, and I have to tell you, your father was a lucky guy. having you do this because me going to different gigs and having to haul all this equipment and set it up myself, I wish I had someone like you or someone like you. I was a willing, yeah, I couldn’t go to the gigs because they were, you know, they would end at 11 o’clock at night and I was only 8 or 10 years old or something. Uh, but I could help him at the house. And then the next day when he got back, you know, we had to set the, set the set up again so he could, so he could practice, you know. For the next gig. So, so it was tearing down like the day of the gig and then he would go off that night and then the next day we get to set it up again. That, that was the thrill. So do you, what, what, what kind of, what, what, what drums do you play? I play, I play that exact configuration. I play Ludwig drums and Ziljin cymbals. Ludwig and Ziljin. Oh, that’s outstanding. Oh, all right. All right, I’m getting a, uh, synesthesia. I appreciate you going into that topic at some point. No, absolutely, because we’re gonna see how it impacts your, your work. But the, the wood, you’re talking about, so you’re talking about the wood of what the drums are constructed. What, what would they have been? Like, what do you know what kind of wood, you know, it’s, I do, I do. So, so the ones that you and I are talking about typically are 6 or 7 pplies or maybe 5 plies of maple, uh, together, and they, you know, they, they, um, They steam the wood and then it gets pliable and that’s how they turn it into an actual drum. But then you could start to go down the path of mahogany, which is a much more rare and expensive, uh, wood, and what that does is it’s a softer wood, so it absorbs the sound. It’s not going to be as loud, it’s going to be more tonal. And then there’s birch, which is a lighter one, and you can just go on and on and on, and, uh, You know, so as you, and it’s funny, non-drummers don’t care about this. They don’t hear the difference when you hit the, but drummers, absolutely, and there’s a different feel and a tone to it. So, um, yeah, that’s one other interesting aspect. And just, you know, what we’re talking about here, it just, I’m, I’m glad that you have a respect for drummers because I still have to deal with the, you know, um, you know, what kind of a guy hangs out with musicians, and, and the answer is a drummer, right? And that’s, I have to deal with that all the time. If people understood how hard it is to really play drums, you know, and not just bash at them, but understand the. The, the, the role that you’re supposed to play as a drummer, they would have more of an appreciation, but you know, I’ll deal with it. No, no, no, you’re, yeah, they are, they are underappreciated. You’re right. But the, the drummer is responsible for keeping the beat. That’s the first and foremost thing is not just the beat. I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re driving the ship, you know, if, if you’re playing. In a live performance and the guitar player stops, nobody cares, right? If the saxophone player stops, nobody cares, but if the drummer stops, everybody turns around and goes, what the heck’s going on, right? And I, I can’t take credit for that. That’s the, the drummer Art Blakey said that once, and I, you know, I take it to heart, so it’s, it’s a really important role. And then adding that responsibility to a jazz performance, where, where others are riffing and then you’re riffing, but still keeping the beat through the, through the piece. 100% and you’re kind of making it up as you, you’re making it up as you go along too, which is, you know, there’s that exciting component, nerve-wracking component to it. It’s time for Tony’s take 2. Thank you, Kate. Happy New Year Uh, Kate doesn’t agree, but I think, I think the 19th is OK. I don’t know about next week. Next week, probably not. So if you want to be a nonprofit radio guest, um, It, uh, it should be obvious, but I get a lot of pitches that, uh, seem to overlook the obvious. So I’m gonna state it. It needs to be about nonprofits. Your pitch needs to have value for Our 13,000+ listeners in small and mid-sized nonprofits. That means even if your nonprofit has a compelling story, or you have a compelling, just incredible story of how you arrived. That’s not good. That’s not good. That, that, that, that belongs on other podcasts. I’m sure there are other places where your story can be told about how you evolved and emerged from COVID and overcame funding crises and maybe leadership changes and culture changes and fundraising debacles and negative PR stories, whatever may have beset you. Um, it’s no good. You gotta, it’s gotta have value for all the other listeners, not just be telling. A nonprofit journey story or a personal story. So. Please make it about that. And, uh, once it’s that, if you got that value. Uh, some bullet points are helpful. I mean, I don’t mind narrative, but bullet points, uh, are preferred, they’re easier to follow. And you email them with why you think this is a good topic, why you’re qualified to talk about it. You send that off to Tony at Tony Martignetti.com. That’s me, the host. And there you go. It’s that simple to pitch. Nonprofit radio. I would say, like if somebody asked what percentage of pitches I accept. I would say it’s probably about 70 or so. That’s purely Off the top of my head, purely a subjective determination. I have not added up all the pitches and, uh, Divided that, uh, into the number of guests and then multiplied by 100 to get the percentage. Uh, I would say off the top of my head. About 70% of pitches get accepted. And that is Tony’s take 2. Kate I think you should bring back the Santa that you never had on the radio. Santa. No, I don’t know. Yeah, that’s off topic that we just talked about. What, what, have you been listening? Where were you? I was just thinking about that. I think I think that was one of the topics for um Was it the 6:50th, and you were talking about how you were gonna have this Santa come on and talk about his thing, and then you, you declined it and never had him on. Right, I, I, I think you mean the 750th, 750th. Associate producer, right? Associate producer Kate, Kate Martinetti, that is you, right? That’s me. You are Kate Martignetti, OK. And you are the associate producer of this, this podcast, not, not so much I proudly wear that title. Yes, associate producer. All right. All right, I’m just making sure because, uh, last July was our 750th episode. Yes, there was a Santa and there was also, well, yeah, the Santa, I canceled him after the fermentation show. With Sandor Kraut, whose real name is Sandor, I think it’s Kraus or. Kraut is not his real name. He’s, uh, he’s playing off sauerkraut being a fermented food because he was a fermented food expert. So after the Sandor Kraut episode bombed. I canceled Santa. Uh, Santa was that other 25%. Uh, yeah, not a roughly, uh, the, the, yeah, the, the 7 to 25 to 30%. I’m thinking about it now. It could be as, it could be as low as 60%. It might be, it might be more like 62.5%. Uh, I’m, I’m a little tough. I’m, you know, you, you gotta, you gotta meet the bar. You gotta jump the bar, not just meet it. This is nonprofit radio for Pete’s sake. We’ve got Bu butt loads more time. Here’s the rest of Thrive Amid the digital marketing Transformation with Lou Kotsinnis. So how do you think so? How do you think that contributes to the work that you do now? Uh, you know, it’s some, the music is improvisational, but it’s, it’s also a backbone to it, keeping the beat as we’re talking about. How do, how do you think about how music influences your, uh, your practice at, uh, at, at BCS Interactive. That’s a really wonderful question, one I haven’t really thought about, but we can do that here. So, You know, the way I approach the drums is, is methodical, right? I just, I love the process of it. I love the, um, the musicality aspect of it, you know, I read music for the drums, and there’s a very, there’s a structure to it, there’s a foundation to it, and I have to think that that is translated over into how we approach working with clients, right? There’s a, a foundation to what you do. There’s a rhythm and a steadiness to it. I don’t know if you picked it up in our conversation, but I’m a big believer in, in foundational habits. It’s not the, you know, we want the ice bucket challenge type thing, right? We want the, we, you know, we, you have to put in the work to be able to get the marketing outcomes. And so again, slow and steady wins the race. I don’t know, maybe that does have some tie into, um, focusing on rhythm and keeping things steady and keeping things organized, right? It’s not. You know, different marketing agencies vary in their culture and ours is not the flashy, you know, we did these huge campaigns, it’s one small win after another and I believe frankly that that’s the stronger way to go because you’re building for longevity, right? You’re putting all these principles which may seem boring but they are absolutely important if you do them over time you, you’re gonna have a stronger structure. That philosophy is very consistent with, uh, George Weiner’s at Whole Whale. Do you, do you know George? I do. I, I know him from afar. I think we’ve spoken a couple of times and I’m familiar with, uh, Whole Whale’s work. All right, well, the two of you, uh, both of your, uh, so I’m sure your agencies have very similar philosophies in terms, you know, it’s not splashy. It’s, we look at the data, we, we, Uh, we iterate based on the data, and it’s, you know, he, I’m sure he would completely agree at the risk of putting words in his mouth, uh, uh, with you that, you know, that slow and steady wins the race. It, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a splash. It, it, it takes time, but over time, you can move the needle. And to that point, I keep saying the word habits. I, I would, you know, recommend for any nonprofit leader, executive director, uh, founder, what have you, read the book Atomic Habits. I don’t know if you’ve read that before, Tony, but that, I don’t know it. Yeah, so Atomic Habits, Atomic Habits by James Clear, it might be the greatest nonfiction book I’ve ever read. It’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s kind of a simple premise that it’s the small actions built up over time that can create outsized results. Um, and everything I’m talking about here is basically outlined there. So it’s, um, yeah, it’s a good guidebook if you’re, if you’re willing to go down that path. Let’s move to the website. Uh, our, our, what used to be the focus, but still, you know, very important, you, you believe. Sure, yeah, so, um, You know, if we think about the fact that less traffic is going to websites, and it’s, it’s a fact, it’s happening, right? It’s, it’s not something that you should really panic over, and I’m saying this as an agency owner who builds websites and, um, you know, I’m, I may be biased in saying this, but I don’t think I am. Think about the people who are now still coming to your website, right? The ones that even though they had the AI search answer, even though they went on social media, they still want to come to your website. To me. Those are true believers, those are high intent individuals, right? They’re the ones that, OK, I’m considering donating to this organization. Are they for real? Right? And they’re not, they’re not satisfied with the, the AI summary that they got. 100%, they, and they want, again, let’s go back to that concept of the story being the most powerful tool, in my opinion, right? Where are they going to get that story from in a way that is engaging and impactful. It’s the way you tell it on your website and the images that you’re using and the, and the video that you’re using, so. To me, I, I said this at the beginning of our conversation, the website is more important than it was before, not in the sense that you have to direct all of your traffic there, but the people that are coming there, it’s not about clicking, it’s about converting. So in order to do that, you have to create a really good experience. So I don’t think the website is going away at all. And one other important element to to remember actually too. Is that this is the last place where you really control the narrative, Tony, right? If you, if you spend your entire career building a, a presence on Instagram, and Instagram goes away one day or they change their algorithm, you’re done, man, you know what I mean? Like now, now you have to participate in zero-click marketing, don’t get me wrong, but the website is the one where you’re able to tell the story in your own way. And I’ll add to that too, one other thing I mentioned, I would, I would say is that AI is probably drawing from your website as well too. So don’t, don’t neglect it. I know some nonprofits listening to this might be saying, oh, this is great, I can just do everything on Facebook, I’ll never have to pay for a website again. I’m, I’m afraid that’s not the case. I think you’re doing yourself a disservice if you’re not investing in your site. OK, uh, so let’s again talk about some tactics. Uh, you know, this may be long-standing tactics, but it’s, it’s often valuable to Reinforce fundamentals. So whether, whether this is cutting edge or fundamental, let’s, uh, let’s remind folks what, what, what they ought to be paying attention to on their, on their own. The site that they control, you’re right. You control everything on your website, from what the back end is, whether it’s a Drupal or a WordPress, to every single word, every comma, every, every image, it’s that you own that, you own that. How should we be respecting it? So the first is mindset, right? Remember now that we’re looking at this in terms of engagement, not necessarily just in in terms of drawing pure traffic. So when you think about engagement, then you have to start to look at like 3 specific factors is what we advise. The first is brand and what I mean by that, that’s interchangeable with positioning, with mission, however, whatever term you wanna use. But when an individual comes to your website, they should know immediately what it is you do, who they serve, or who you serve, and then, you know, design it, or at least design the interface, the main interface, in a way that’s gonna bring people in. I did a whole webinar on this if people are ever interested in terms of positioning and, and messaging on your website. So brand is the, is the, is the foundational element that you have to get right, right? Who are you? What audience do you, uh, tend to cater to or, or are you focused on, and how are you different from other organizations out there? So brand is #1. Number 2 then becomes your story. Again, that, that all important element, you know, are you putting up engaging expert content based around your expertise and based around the audience that you are looking to focus on? And, you know, again, it, I, I don’t write per se in AI. What I do is I write and then I have AI vetted for me. I, it’s a great editor, right? But I write from the heart and I write based on, on my own knowledge, and I encourage website owners to do the same thing. It’s very easy to just say, OK, write me up a page of content based on such and such, and it’ll produce something really very good, right? But what individuals want, in my opinion is authenticity. Uh, and there may come a point where, you know, AI gets so good that it replaces humans. I don’t think it’s going in that direction. I just, I’m a tech optimist for the most part. So I’m, I’m kind of seguing here to, to mention, you know, where do you get that content from. I would still write it based on what you know and who you are and, and what, you know, your organization is looking to achieve. So you’re using AI as the editor for the, for content that you create, versus the other way around, which is, uh, what a lot of folks encourage is that have AI do your first draft, and then you be the editor. I, I don’t agree with that at all. Honestly, I have to come out strongly against that. I, I think that. One of the things that makes us human is our authenticity, our our ability to generate ideas, and, and I think writing is a reflection of our soul. I don’t mean to get too, you know, schmaltzy there with you, but I, I think you, and, and the way it helps me is, uh, so if you’re familiar with the product HubSpot, um, the, the, the, uh, CRM, their CEO, is co-CEO, a guy named Dharmesh Shah, give the best definition of AI I’ve ever seen, which is think of AI as having an intern with a PhD in everything. And that’s the way I use it, right? Um, so I will come up, the, the, the way that I write blog posts, and I encourage anyone to write blog posts this way is I listen for what the client’s pain points are. And if you hear enough of them over time around the same topic, that means something that a lot of people are probably gonna want to learn about. So then that’s, I will answer that in the blog. Now I will do that based on my knowledge, but along the way, if I run into a problem. How do I get past this phrase I need some understanding of this technology. I will certainly go to my partner, the intern right there in AI and get that, get over that hump and so I’ll continue to write that way and then when I’m finished I’m like, OK, take a look at this based on the parameters that I wanted. Is it logical? Um, I have questions about this area. Will you please give me an answer on that? Does this make sense to you? If you were, um, the leader of a, of a large nonprofit based in this sector, would this resonate with you? And that’s kind of the way I interact with it. So I’m, I’m sorry, I’m, you’re asking me about the importance of websites and what to do there, and I’m taking you on an AI path. So I, no, I, I asked you to digress, and, uh, we, we’re using AI similarly, you and I, uh, for slightly different reasons. My, my concern about having. Something artificial, create the first draft is that we’re, we’re surrendering our, our, our, our, I believe our humanity in a, in a slightly different way than you described it. We’re surrendering our creativity. I think, I think the most creative task we can do is staring at a blank page and creating from, from, from whole cloth. And that applies to music, uh, art, and, and also writing. Uh, writing is an art, but, you know, composing text, whether it’s a letter or a blog post or something for LinkedIn, you know, whatever it is, I, I, I don’t want to give up. I don’t want to surrender that creativity to the artificial and then relegate myself to copy editor. Exactly, and, and staring at that blank page is painful, right? It hurts, and that’s why, you know, AI can fill that gap if you let it. But again, you are surrendering something very important there, and that, you know, that’s something, and, you know, for the rest of my career, I’m going to stick to. You know, sometimes do I cheat if I’m stuck? Yeah, maybe a sentence or two, but I don’t allow it to write the whole concept for me. I mean, the whole point of our brand at BCS Interactive is that we are authentic and we are giving you our own knowledge and our hard earned experience. So, you know, again, the bottom line for me, AI is an assistant and it always will be, and I will rely on it. As such, but the original ideas come, come from us. So, so we talked about, uh, we talked about brand and story. Story is, is second, and story again is all of the content that’s on your site and are you engaging individuals that are arriving there once they understand what you do? Are you bringing them through a path of understanding to eventually some conversion? And the third and perhaps the most important now, I’m, I’m not gonna say it’s more important than the brand, but it’s equally as important is user experience. That can mean a lot of things, but the bottom line is when a person comes to your site now, they should be able to find what they want when they want it, and they should be able to get their actions done frictionless, right? There’s really no excuse left for poor user experience because again, think of your high intent. Individual that’s close to donating or that wants to join your organization or an external funder, God willing, those will exist in 2026, um, and that is vetting you as an organization, you have to have your act together. So it’s so important to have a strong website in that regard. Yeah, let’s say a little more about the UX, you know, it, it, again, you’re saying, you know, you, you’ve got your high intent, high information, seeking high, uh, uh, uh. Visitors seeking more information, so that they’re, they’re seeking to be high information. Um, we could spend, we could spend days on website organization, user experience, uh, but give us your, give us like, you know, your, your top level thinking. The number one thing is your navigation, right? Your content organization. So you envision coming to a website, whether it’s on a mobile device or on a, on a desktop and You know, I’m seeking certain pages. I’m seeking certain information, and to this day I’m amazed how many high quality organizations put what I call self-serving navigation. They’ll put labels for different pages that make sense to them, but not to the general public, and a person has to search and scratch that. What does that mean? Am I going to this page? where is that? So navigation. And content labeling is kind of step number one. That’s the most important thing aside from the messaging when they come to the site to understand, yes, I’m in the right place. Once they start searching, they should be able to find what they want super intuitively and I. At the, at the risk of going to jargon jail, and I’ll explain this, the tool that you use to get around that is the site map. I don’t know if you’ve heard this before, but sitemap is really just literally a map of all the pages you want on the website with the correct labels. And what’s a correct label? Well, it’s one that you and hopefully your agency or someone that you have spoken to that is not you can agree on that, yes, this is the label we want that’s gonna define this section, and under that section we’re gonna have all of these different pages that continue to feed that experience, so. That’s, that’s a kind of low hanging fruit that you should be able to address. Then you have to think of your critical functions. I mean, number one is if you’re a fundraising organization or that relies on fundraising, you have to have that experience down, you know, when you arrive at that donation page, that’s the moment of truth. So, you know, there’s certain things that you obviously have to do. You, it has to be secure. You shouldn’t be sending them to a third party site for the most part, and there’s plenty of tools now that will allow you to just stay on the website. You want to show impact, right? That’s getting more into the donor, um, you know, fundraising component, but, you know, $100 will give you this, or $2000 will supply that, that kind of thing to, to, um, to, to better engage your donor. And then the form fields, and again, this is a little bit of old school thinking because when we had to build these things manually, that’s when this would be important. Now, every third party product that you use for donations tends to have their user experience down, but. You know, a lot of smaller organizations suffer from this, so you have to make sure if I was a, a, a willing donor and I came here, is this a simple experience for me? Is this an enticing experience? And then uh lastly, I would translate that similar thinking to all of the other conversion aspects on your site. If it’s important to you to get member sign ups, that member process needs to be clean and clear and, and simple to do, um, you know, I, I don’t know, it depends on the organization. If you’re looking to get newsletter signups, are you enticing them in a certain way, so. It’s about thinking of positioning it’s about thinking about that navigation and then the functionality on the site that’s critical for your organization has to be done properly. Lou, how’d you get the BCS Interactive as the company name? Uh, is that your parents? Uh, what, what, what’s, yeah, what’s the BCS? You know, the first podcast I ever went on a couple of years ago, that was the first question he asked me, and I wasn’t ready for it, and I kind of mumbled it. So ever since then I, um, and I should also segue and say that we are about to do a rebrand. So this year you will see a slightly newer name. So BCSM Interactive in part is gonna go away. BCS stands for Business communication Services. So I used to, uh, in my corporate days, way back when, I had always wanted to start my own shop, and in the beginning, I, I truly knew nothing about business and I wanted to have a name that we would grow into, kind of like, um, advanced marketing services or IBM. IBM is an example, International Business Machines, right? So business communication services, and in the beginning we didn’t just do the web, we did all kinds of things. It was copywriting, advertising. So if you think about a business communication service, which in retrospect is really the worst name ever, I mean, it’s, it’s long, it doesn’t, I wouldn’t business communication services interactive.com. It is boring, right? So I need a nap. What, what is that exactly. So, so I truncated it immediately to BCS. initially we were BCS marketing, and then, um, over time when we transitioned strictly into digital became BCS Interactive. So, um, you know, my father was involved. He was a bit of a mentor from, from the beginning. Um, but if, you know, in retrospect, if I could have gone back and started with a different name, I would have, but, uh, yeah, it is what it is. Well, you’re about to, that’s right. That’s right. Was, was your dad a musician at all? No, no, not, not, not at all. Um, my father was, um, he was a businessman, he was a mechanic, he was a Greek immigrant, and, um, you know, he allowed us, he allowed me to explore our passions, and I’m very, very grateful for that. And, and what is it that brought you to drumming? Again, you know, I think we touched on this. It’s hard to answer that. It really is. It’s something about. That beat, you know, something about the, the, the, the, the, the, the bass drum first, followed by the snare, followed by the bass drum, and then being able to make different sounds with different instruments because every drum is a different instrument and seeing older relatives, cousins being able to do that and then seeing these, I’m going to call them guys because all my heroes were guys at the time in that music scene, being able to do incredible things. I don’t know. I, I, you know, I consider myself an ambivert, you know, if you know that term, like both extroverted and introverted. So they say that introverts go towards the drums because you’re, you’re hidden and you don’t have to be in front of anybody, but I don’t think that has anything to do with it. It’s just something about that, that rhythm that attracted me. Was Buddy Rich, uh, an influence on you? Here’s my thought on Buddy. Buddy Rich is by far the greatest technical drummer that ever lived. I mean, it’s almost too much. If you watch him, it’s almost inhuman how good he was. That being said, Some of that was a little off-putting. It was just, you know, the, the drummers that I admired were the ones that had really good technical chops, but Held back a bit and employed that where it was necessary. They had a great feel. I’m thinking about Tony Williams, who played with, uh, Miles Davis. I’m thinking about Max Roach, one of the greatest that ever lived. And then some of the more contemporary guys, Vinny Kaliuta, um, uh, I’m forgetting, Steve Jordan, huge, uh, uh, your listeners are gonna think we’re going way down the rabbit hole, but I, you know, I’m very passionate about this particular topic, so I appreciate you asking. Yeah, I know, who did Steve Jordan play with? Steve Jordan got his start on Saturday Night Live. He was the first drummer on Saturday Night Live when he was a teenager, and then he went off to do a lot of different studio albums, and eventually he got picked up by Keith Richards. So if you ever listen to Keith Richards’ solo albums, that’s Steve Jordan. And then from there, he played with, you know, a bunch of people. Um, he actually filled in for the Stones when, when Charlie Watts died, so you, you might know him there if you’re a Stones fan. And, uh, he’s just got an incredible feel. He looks so cool playing. And um he’s also very passionate about the instrument and I respect that. Luukatzinni. Lou, leave us with uh some parting words. Oh, by the way, I appreciate you being on earlier podcasts so that all, all in preparation for being a, a guest on nonprofit radio. So my, my, my gratitude to those earlier podcasts, you know, all, this is, this is, you’re at the pinnacle here. It’s all, I’m sorry, but it’s, it’s downhill from here. I can, I can see that. Um, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. And you know, if you don’t mind, uh, Tony, I’m gonna shy away from giving technical parting words. I, I want to share something that I’ve been feeling for the last year, um, because we’re in this industry together and 2025 was so hard. It was so hard on nonprofits because, you know, I don’t want to get political here, but beyond, because of what we were seeing at the federal level, you’re dealing with an industry that was already underfunded, that’s doing great work, um. That, you know, always caught. Crap, forgive my term, for spending in areas that weren’t programmatic, you know, these people that, that, you know, a lot of staff gets burnt out doing what they do in this industry, and I just think it’s unfair. And then came this kind of, I’m gonna call it a cataclysm that really just knocked everybody on their, on their butts. So the parting words that I have for everybody is that, you know, we’re all in this together. Um, I, I’m, I 100% believe that the nonprofit, uh, industry or community will come out of this. Um, better than they were before, unfortunately there’s gonna be a lot of damage along the way, but just, you know, let’s all keep our heads up. Let’s continue to do great work, and if you pull anything from the conversation that you and I had here, again, it’s slow and steady, it’s not trying to win with one huge marketing campaign that knocks it out of the park. It’s putting in these fundamentals that over time will make you a stronger organization. Lou Katsinis, the company is at BCS Interactive.com. Definitely connect with Lou on LinkedIn as he and I have been for years. Lou, thank you so much. It was a real pleasure. Thank, thanks for sharing your, your, your thinking, your, your expertise. Great being with you, Tony. Thank you. Next week, Monthly Giving with Dana Snyder. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at Tony Martignetti.com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martinetti. This show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.
