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Nonprofit Radio for August 8, 2022: Increase Data Literacy Across Your Nonprofit

 

Alexandra ManneringsIncrease Data Literacy Across Your Nonprofit

Widespread data literacy helps your teams build a shared language of data communication, recognize good and bad data, and appropriately apply analytics to improve decision making. Alexandra Mannerings makes the case. She’s from Merakinos. (This is part of our continuing #22NTC coverage.)

 

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[00:01:50.98] spk_0:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me, I’d be hit with mega low kyra if you handed me the idea that you missed this week’s show increased data literacy across your non profit widespread data literacy helps your teams build a shared language of data, communication, recognize good and bad data and appropriately apply analytics to improve decision making. Alexandra manna Rings makes the case she’s from Morocco knows This is part of our continuing 22 and T. c. coverage on Tony’s Take to Tiktok we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D but they go one dimension deeper here is increased data literacy across your non profit Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N. T. C. You know what it is? It’s the 2022 nonprofit technology conference, you know that it’s hosted by N 10. My guest now in our coverage is Alexandra Mana Rings, founder of Morocco knows Alexandra Welcome to non profit radio

[00:02:01.04] spk_1:
thank you so much for, having me here today tony quite

[00:02:04.37] spk_0:
a pleasure Absolutely welcome for your first your first time maybe first time lets see

[00:02:10.11] spk_1:
Yeah it’s my first time with NtC. So

[00:02:12.68] spk_0:
oh, is it okay? I go back to 2015 or something. I’ve been doing interviews from NtC used to do them when, when it was an in person conference, I did them live on the uh on the exhibit floor. Oh,

[00:02:25.70] spk_1:
that’s fun. Maybe someday we’ll get back to their

[00:02:27.60] spk_0:
next year is supposed to be next year in Denver, it’s supposed to be

[00:02:31.09] spk_1:
well, perfect. Because I’m already in Denver,

[00:02:34.26] spk_0:
fingers crossed. Is that where you are? Oh

[00:02:36.80] spk_1:
well

[00:02:40.79] spk_0:
NtC is gonna be local to you. There you go. Save your savior, save the cost of a hotel

[00:02:43.06] spk_1:
room stay.

[00:02:44.65] spk_0:
Actually, people people, people who are local state because it’s so much fun up till like 9 30 10 o’clock at night, they don’t really want to be like driving home, rather just take an elevator home, you know, to their room. So consider that possibility too. All right,

[00:03:00.57] spk_1:
your

[00:03:08.94] spk_0:
session is the imperative to increase data literacy across your organization. Why is this important? Help us understand overview

[00:03:12.62] spk_1:
Why

[00:03:12.93] spk_0:
does this matter for everybody in the organization.

[00:05:36.37] spk_1:
I feel that data literacy matters for two critical reasons. The first is because it is very difficult to get through your professional life efficiently and effectively, if you are not data literate. And the second reason is it’s very difficult to get through your personal life if you are not data literate. And the reason that I believe this is because data literacy is a subset of literacy, we wouldn’t, we would imagine that getting through life if you weren’t literate. If you couldn’t read or write to be nearly impossible. And data literacy is the same thing. I think we get confused with data literacy because we think it means only the production of data products, right? We think that this means I have to be someone who can create those fancy graphs, build data models, be a data engineer, create data warehouses and that’s just a tiny component of data literacy. I joke that you wouldn’t say you weren’t literate if you couldn’t read Hebrew or you weren’t reading, you know dostoyevsky, that’s a very subset of literacy that is reserved for specialists. Same with reading a medical textbook. Sure there is technical literacy that’s needed if you work in very specific technical rules. But we expect the rest of us to be able to read at a certain functional level and we should expect that we can use data at a certain functional level. And the reason for this is that so many things use data literacy that I don’t think we ran recognize are actually data literacy tasks. For example, you go to the grocery store and you see two different items that are different sizes and you need to decide which one do I buy and one is priced at 2 49 1 is priced at 3 15. You’ve got to compare across different situations, different context of those numbers and decide what’s the right one using the values of what you need to actually get done. That’s literacy. Exactly. That’s arithmetic. Or write another example with data literacy um is also understanding how our brains function with numbers. So you go to buy an item, right? And you see the little strike strikeout number was like used to be 9 99 and now it’s 3 49 or whatever. And that leverages a technique called anchoring by exposing us to a higher value number were more inclined to think that the lower value number is a better deal than we would have had. We just seen the original that that actual price,

[00:05:48.88] spk_0:
we’ve just

[00:06:06.27] spk_1:
seen 3 49 right? We would respond differently to that foreseen 3 49 against a previous 9 99 price. And so part of data literacy is also being aware of how we as humans ingest and interact with numbers and we have to deal with those kinds of things all the time. And then I

[00:06:07.40] spk_0:
have an example. I share an example with

[00:06:09.53] spk_1:
you. I

[00:06:39.33] spk_0:
remember I thought so fascinating menus in restaurants, people will perceive a number with a dollar sign in front of it to cost more than if the price in the menu is written out. No, no, there’s no Arabic numbers, it’s written out 12 $12.12 dollars 50 cents. That’s written versus dollar sign 12.50. Because you don’t think of, you don’t think of the written out as money. It’s not something out of your pockets, not something you have to spend. It’s just, it’s just an abstract word, $12.50 or abstract words. I thought that was fascinating.

[00:07:24.83] spk_1:
And there’s so many things like that where because we’re humans and the way that our brains work, we have all these shortcuts that allow us to do these extraordinary things that computers are still trying to catch up to. But it also means that occasionally those shortcuts have these odd side effects and these sorts of things like anchoring are some of those odd side effects and being aware of them can help you not be misled by people who might try to to use that against you. And then sorry, go ahead.

[00:07:27.30] spk_0:
Remember my question. I

[00:08:05.40] spk_1:
was gonna say as well that another part of data literacy is being able to be appropriately skeptical of the numbers that you see around you, right. You don’t necessarily have to know how to produce those numbers. You don’t have to know how to calculate those sorts of things, but you do need to you know when you should trust numbers and when you should maybe ask a few more questions about where those numbers came from. And in order to be able to be effectively skeptical rather than just either say I won’t trust numbers because you can’t trust numbers, blanket statement or being other. Your other option is that you just have to go entirely based on who’s giving it to you and that can, can be helpful. It can be a decent shortcut. But you want to be able to actually look at each number in each case and say, you know what might be some shortcomings of this number or what else might I need to do to really understand how I could apply this number. Understanding the limitations of the data that it came from.

[00:08:22.98] spk_0:
All right. You need to be able to react in individual cases.

[00:08:26.77] spk_1:
Yeah. When

[00:08:44.81] spk_0:
when you’re seeing numbers right. All right. You need to give your cat some love the second time up on your lap. I saw she was very you couldn’t even to listeners. You couldn’t even tell. But she gave the cat a couple of strokes. Put it down and came right back. That wasn’t enough. Not not even close. All right. Um Do you have a background in in data science or in any something quantitative?

[00:09:15.49] spk_1:
I joke that I’m a scientist who works with data rather than a data scientist. Data scientist is a a fuzzy term. Um But for the most part, a lot of people interpret it to mean having a lot of technical skills coding, data engineering. But my background is actually in life science. I have a PhD in epidemiology. I studied spillover of pathogens from fruit bats into people in West africa for my PhD. So I say that that gives me a really good way of asking questions of numbers and all of my quantitative skills have come out of. How do I actually process information to get me the scientific answers that I was looking for?

[00:09:29.69] spk_0:
How did you get from spillover fruit bats in western Western africa? Yeah,

[00:09:35.03] spk_1:
I wasn’t gonna

[00:09:36.15] spk_0:
non profit to the nonprofit technology conference,

[00:09:40.04] spk_1:
God blessed the broken road rascal flatts.

[00:09:43.25] spk_0:
So

[00:09:51.56] spk_1:
life, life has funny things. Um, I guess the shorthand of it is I was intending to go into global public health. It was where my passion was very, very interested in, especially in the space of zoonotic disease. So things that go from animals into people which now we’re all very aware

[00:09:59.87] spk_0:
of coronavirus is

[00:10:01.02] spk_1:
right. Exactly.

[00:10:02.84] spk_0:
We, aside from conspiracy theories is very reputable. E deemed to have emerged from

[00:10:13.43] spk_1:
Yes, yes, no, coronavirus as we know are have, uh, they’re the reservoir for most coronavirus is, But yeah. And so that didn’t end up working out quite the way that I wanted. And so I found myself through a number of different things here. And I am very glad I did. I enjoy it. Very, very much good.

[00:11:02.27] spk_0:
We’re glad to have you. My law career didn’t work out very well and here I am nonprofits, fundraising and podcasting. So all right. So that seems like enough motivation hopefully for folks. How do we start to get um, everybody in the organization, I mean, you said everybody can do better with data literacy in their jobs than without. So how do we get this to trickle down to folks that may believe that their work, it’s very, maybe manual or just doesn’t involve data. Let’s let’s start with those folks that that would believe that they’re they believe that their job just doesn’t require data literacy. How are we going to get them on board?

[00:11:58.08] spk_1:
I mean, I think the first is to make sure that we all understand what we mean by data. I think it’s easy. I I run into a lot that people think that data means finance. Right? And I again, like data means numbers and numbers or money and therefore they’re the same thing. And if I don’t deal with money, I don’t have to deal with data. But really all data are data are bits of information that we can store and repeatedly collect and come back to again. And when you think of data, that way you’ll start to realize that a lot of what we interact with our data. Images, our data, your emails are data. Your timestamps are data right? Every click that someone made on your website is data. And so there are very few jobs that don’t in some way involve some element of data.

[00:13:30.10] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications media relationships, you know how important relationships are in fundraising essential. They’re just as essential in media exposure. Both of the turn to partners are former journalists. One of them is Peter Pan a pinto who was an editor at the chronicle of philanthropy. So they know what to do and what to stay away from, to build relationships with journalists. Those media relationships are going to get you heard when you need to be heard, make you the thought leader you want to be. It’s all about relationships. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to increase data literacy across your non profit you say something repeatable and collectible. I mean we’re all doing repeat tasks. Even even those of us who do manual work, there’s a way to do it better if you’re I guess intentional about collecting some simple data.

[00:13:47.09] spk_1:
Exactly. I mean, you can think about farming, which is probably one of the most manual labors out there and there’s an incredible wealth of data available that many farmers, especially small scale farmers are putting to use to really help them whether it’s tracking rainfall, soil moisture, ph of the soil germination rates. I mean changing weather patterns are critical for farmers. So understanding new flowering times, um, and last frost dates. All of that is data. And if you can understand it and interact with it appropriately, you’re going to be better at your job.

[00:14:06.43] spk_0:
Okay, so

[00:14:25.43] spk_1:
that would be the first thing is, is how people realize that there are very few jobs out there that don’t involve data and if you can get them there, then I think the next step is socializing it. Let’s discuss it. Let’s have donuts and coffee and chat about our data and make it comfortable and easy space to be in where we can ask questions where we can explore where we can feel uncertain and like when we started discover terms that we don’t actually know what they mean and and asked, hey, does anyone know what variants actually means or or what do we mean when we talk about a standard deviation? Can someone help me know how to interpret a standard deviation and just discuss that chat about it, make it accessible.

[00:16:05.56] spk_0:
And now it’s getting a little now it’s getting uh more well now it’s getting more technical, but but you start to bring people along by having a broader definition of data. Data is not necessarily numerical, as, as you said, anything repeatable, collectible that you’re doing in your job. All right. Um then you start to use start to weave in your standard deviation and variance. Um Now I’m calling on my high school, I mean my college, my college statistics, I took I probably took statistics for poets or something. So I’ve heard the phrase standard deviation. No, I know I know that between an average and immediate. I’m trainable. Trainable. Um, Alright, so, alright, so we’re talking about, so we get everybody together, we’re talking about, you know, data in our, in our day to day work. And I remember to you said in your personal lives as well. But you know, we’re going to focus here on the organizational level. That’s all our listeners are in small and midsize nonprofits most mostly shout out to our board members and to those who are vendors to nonprofits as well. I know you’re out there, I know you’re there, but you’re supporting small and midsize nonprofits. Um, alright, so where do we go? I mean, all right. So we get to start and realize, help people recognize that data is a part of their work life every day.

[00:16:15.64] spk_1:
What

[00:16:15.93] spk_0:
are we gonna do with that information with that fact?

[00:17:53.46] spk_1:
So I like to sit down and say, what are the most critical questions that if you got answered, you would feel more comfortable with the decisions that you’re making or you would be able to make more effective, efficient decision. And the thing is, is even people who may or may not recognize the elements of data in their work. They usually know these questions. So if you are a development officer, the first thing you’re gonna say is man, if I knew which of my donors were more likely to give bigger gifts, I would know who to spend more time on or if I knew, you know, as a volunteer coordinator, the most effective way to reach out to my volunteers to make sure they respond. That would make it so much easier for me to figure out what modality, what method to reach out to them to. Well, both of those questions are questions we can ask of the right data sets. And so without making anyone be a super technical data person, we can find out what those questions are and then start to say how do we get the data to answer them? And and there will probably be a point at which you may get to a question that requires some more technical data expertise that you might not have in house. But until then ask those questions, look at the data that you have, see, who in your organization might be able to help you answer that. And this is where that socialization part comes in because if you’re a volunteer coordinator, maybe you don’t necessarily know how to dig into your volunteer database and find that. But maybe your program evaluator does. And even though maybe that program evaluators used to focusing on program data, You could carve out a little of her, his or her time to spend 20 minutes on your data and maybe give you some new insights of. Hey, I noticed that when you send emails, you get a 50% open rate. When you’re sending those text messages, you’re getting 5% of them responding. Let’s focus on email communication for your for your volunteers. Something simple like that.

[00:18:14.49] spk_0:
Okay, that’s that’s pretty achievable too. I mean that that’s something that’s easily easily figured out. Alright, alright, this is uh better living through data literacy.

[00:18:26.77] spk_1:
Alright,

[00:18:32.73] spk_0:
better living, better working Um part of your session was um well recognizing good and bad

[00:18:35.25] spk_1:
data.

[00:18:37.47] spk_0:
What do you want folks to know there?

[00:20:29.73] spk_1:
So this is again where I’m not sure that there’s a good way of getting this kind of knowledge unless you have someone come and teach it to you. You can self educate. There’s a lot of great resources out there but you have to have the time to invest in it. But these are learning things like survivor bias. So in my presentation I told a story about Abraham wald who is a statistician in World War Two, who the military approached and said, hey, a bunch of our planes keep getting shot down by the luftwaffe to write World War Two. The german air force is the dominant force in the sky. We have to keep our planes in the air against the Germans or we’re gonna lose. How do we armor these planes so that our planes last longer. And he had all the data from every bomber that returned and where the bullet holes were And when he looked at this, you could see and he did some quick back of the napkin statistics and he could see that there were areas that were twice as likely to be hit on the plane than others. So the tail was more likely to be hit. The ends of the wings were more likely to be hit. This sort of gap in the fuselage between the cockpit and the engine were more likely to be hit. So militaries like that. Is that where we armor and he was like you armor, where the bullets aren’t hitting because you were missing planes from your data set. They sort of looked at him and they were like what? Because I am looking at every returning plane. The planes I don’t see are the ones that got hit in a place that made them go down. And he had the data literacy to recognize a limitation of the data set that he was working with. And I used that as an example because he didn’t use a fancy formula to find that out. He didn’t run some algorithm to find that out. In fact he couldn’t have because his insight was on what was missing from his data, not what he did with the data he had. And so so this, what he discovered is this concept of survivor bias which is, there can be systematic gaps in your data based on the factors that you used to collect it. You know how you’re getting that data. In his case. It was literally a survivor bias right that the planes

[00:20:48.21] spk_0:
that went down

[00:21:00.00] spk_1:
couldn’t be in his data set. But we find this in other cases right. If you’re trying to study student success and all you have are data on alumni, you’re missing everyone who dropped out. Um, and so those sorts of things are, are things we need to be aware of when we’re looking at data. So survivor bias is a great example of bad data. Um And it’s not necessarily it’s bad. It’s limited. There’s there’s a shortcoming to it.

[00:21:19.36] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. I think I have a book that talks about things like this. Alternative interpretations of data based conclusions talks about like confirmation

[00:21:25.02] spk_1:
bias.

[00:21:26.17] spk_0:
Um It’s a college. I’m not kidding, I

[00:21:31.05] spk_1:
would believe you and now I would point out the confirmation bias is something a little bit different survive

[00:21:36.11] spk_0:
for some reason I kept this thing hypotheses rival hypotheses. For some reason I kept this in college. I don’t know why

[00:21:43.61] spk_1:
rival

[00:21:44.89] spk_0:
hypotheses. Alright well

[00:22:11.97] spk_1:
and that brings up a whole second issues. So you have issues that you have to understand with your data right? Are your data incomplete or your data biased in some way? And I don’t mean that like the data itself has some internal bias. I mean that the way that you collected it leaned towards a certain sample or another. Another great example is if you’re looking at um survey data and your survey was collected by landline phones That is not going to be a representative group of people because I don’t know anyone under the age of 40 who still has a landline

[00:22:19.27] spk_0:
and

[00:23:32.88] spk_1:
so it’s again not that the data in the data set are wrong per se but they are incomplete in a biased way. It’s gonna be heavily leaning towards older people in your sample. So those are functional problems with your data themselves that you have to be aware of and know know how to adjust and respond to what you brought up with confirmation bias and how we interpret that data and apply it to decisions is like a whole nother can of worms that I sort of reference with how we react to numbers and and this is really important too because I think that we often jump to a conclusion on interpreting a fact without realizing that we do it. So I could say and I actually had this happen, I was looking at uh the amount of money that hospitals in Colorado we’re spending on construction. So just how much money do Colorado, hospitals on the whole spend on construction. And I shared this with this number with an individual and she goes, I knew it, they’re spending way too much. And I was like well that wasn’t what I said, I just said it was however millions of dollars and she goes, yeah, I know. And she was immediately applying her interpretation to that number without realizing it. So I said 50 million let’s say. And in her head she heard me say hospitals are spending too much, but all I said was 50 million. So this like jump that we make to putting a value on the number or judging the number or applying that number often happens seamlessly and we have to be really aware of that as well.

[00:23:51.42] spk_0:
Yeah, I think I yeah, I do that all the time something. Reading something in the paper and say, oh my God, that’s so low.

[00:23:58.43] spk_1:
How

[00:24:07.38] spk_0:
can how can it be that small? But you know, without a context for comparisons that are similar. All right. Yeah.

[00:24:08.29] spk_1:
And that’s all part of data literacy as well is being able to bring to light how you’re interpreting your numbers. So that if, if you’re using something, if you’re falling prey to something like confirmation bias, you’re more likely to notice it or at least be able to counteract it in some way.

[00:27:28.92] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. They have a free offer. It is exclusively for nonprofit radio listeners. It’s complimentary. I said free. Yes. Free is also complimentary 24 7 monitoring of your I. T. Assets. They’ll do this for three months. They’ll monitor your servers, network and cloud performance. They’ll monitor your backup performance. All 24 7. Any issues they will let you know asap Plus you will get a comprehensive report at the end of the three month monitoring and they promised they’re gonna throw in a few surprises as well. All free, all complimentary. It’s for the 1st 10 listeners. It’s on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D. Just like three D. But they go on to mention deeper It’s time for Tony to take two. I am a uh, what is that called again? Oh Tiktok. I am a Tiktok Pioneer. Alright. So There’s a billion users. I’m an early adopter. I am on Tiktok. If you are there, uh, following hashtag nonprofits, which is a very widely seen one, like 360 million views I think. Uh, there’s another hashtag, uh, tiktok for nonprofits. Uh, and I’m also of course, uh, using hashtag plan to giving. So if you’re on Tiktok, I’m having fun with it. I hope you are. If you’re there, uh, it’s the, the app is so damn easy to use, so intuitive and so powerful. So this is a, you know, this is a revelation to me. A billion people have tested it. Try it out now and now it’s my turn. So yeah, no, it’s really is. I’m finding it fun and simple. And So if you’re there, there, there are a bunch of other nonprofit folks there, but we need more if you want to, you want to join. I’m 60 not too old to be on Tiktok at least by, uh, by my estimation, you might ask some 14 year olds, they may have a different opinion, but we’re not. Uh, I’m not 14 and we’re not talking to 14 year olds here. So, uh, doesn’t matter. Come in, join Tiktok. Follow those. The hashtag nonprofits, uh, Tiktok for nonprofits join us on Tiktok. If you’re there, check me out. Love to have you. That is Tony’s take two. What do you know about that? We’ve got just about a butt load more time for increased data literacy across your nonprofit with Alexandra mana rings. I feel like we’re, this is valuable, but we’re getting, we’re kind of ethereal

[00:27:34.55] spk_1:
here. Let’s

[00:27:49.99] spk_0:
drill down to the small and midsized non profit listeners that we’ve got. What are they gonna, how how is, how are they going to implement data literacy? I think we’ve talked enough about innovation. Why it’s important. How

[00:27:51.15] spk_1:
are they actually gonna do something?

[00:27:52.81] spk_0:
What are we gonna do with data literacy? What are we going to do with data literacy in, in our humane society?

[00:29:25.72] spk_1:
So the first thing that I tell people to do is conduct the data audit. This sounds fancier than it is. Basically. What you’re gonna do is you’re gonna get everyone around the table or virtual table and you’re gonna say what data sources do you have or know about that? You could access and get again as broad as possible. Start with this definition that data are repeatable, collectible pieces of information and say, what do we have out there? And if you start it with it on index cards or sticky notes awesome. I don’t care. Just start to get a sense of what you have out there and where it lives. And then you can start to apply a little bit more description to them. So if you know, okay, we have a student database, We all use that as how all of our students apply for our um scholarships for example. Well, could you make a table that says all of the data elements that are available there. And can you do that for as many of the data sources as you have and then get together and share that. Just tell everyone this is our little data dictionary. Here’s all the things we could find and what’s in them and what you’ll start to find already is people in the organization go wait, what we have we have student birthdate. I didn’t know that I could use that from the birthday cards. I was trying to send out or oh hang on, we track retention. This program over here was trying to figure out if if you know our coaching program was actually you know, improving retention and they were having, they were collecting retention in a separate survey. We can get rid of that survey and just use you know what’s happening over here. And so already people are gonna start to engage in the day to ask new questions, bring it on board because they didn’t even know it was there and they’ll find ways that they can start to bring it into the work that they do. A lot of people want to use data and they just aren’t aware of where it exists in the organization.

[00:29:48.62] spk_0:
What else. What else can we? All right. So we’re starting with this data on. So

[00:29:52.28] spk_1:
that’s that’s the first

[00:29:53.58] spk_0:
thing conversations right? People are seeing connections. People are seeing duplication.

[00:32:30.11] spk_1:
Yes. This will likely spin off something that is is necessary for data literacy though it’s not the same thing which is you’ll start to realize the need for some data governance and data standards. Right? Make sure can we standardize how we collect birthdate? Can we make sure we all do it the same way? Can we standardize how we define our donors? You know when I say repeat donor, do we all mean the same thing? Can we standardize how we calculate that so that we’re all on the same page with how we talk about it and part of that data standards that does feed into the data literacy is not just to document then all of your pieces of data. But let’s create a shared vocabulary. When I say you know a lapsed donor. Do I mean the same thing as someone you know in development is gonna mean And can we all agree? All right. When we say lapsed owner, what we mean is blank. We’re gonna calculate it this way. It means someone who hasn’t donated for one or more years. Perfect. We can all agree on that definition. And now when we use this, we’re gonna understand each other a whole lot better. So that would be the next step of this is data audit, shared vocabulary. And some of that shared vocabulary is just gonna be like do we mean the same thing? and some of it will be actually writing formulas right? I’m going to calculate churn this way. Let’s all agree we’re gonna calculate at this anymore then I think the next level is figuring out how you’re going to use the data that you find in your data audit and those metrics that you agree on, how to calculate in the decisions that you make daily and strategically. And this requires a culture shift as well as a process shift. The culture shift is around making sure that you are intentionally asking for that information when you go to make those decisions. So as a leader are you putting on the agenda a period of time where its data review? Are you making sure that you give people time to get those numbers to you so that you can incorporate them in your decisions? And then as you know a frontline worker, are you identifying the places where you might need data and don’t have it and passing that up the chain so that those resources can be earmarked for that. Whether it’s just giving you some more time whether it’s figuring out how to bring systems whatever it might be. So you can have that data in your decision making and the culture shift also is about when you sit down to make that decision, are you saying do we agree on this decision or are you saying? What do the data say about this decision, right is it about the people behind, you know, each option that you’re looking at or your gut feeling or how sensible that common sense. And I put that in quotes because I have a lot of issues with common sense things. Are you picking based on that or you picking on the thing that seems like it has the best evidence to support that it will get you where you want to go.

[00:32:58.81] spk_0:
Sense. And intuition

[00:33:00.64] spk_1:
right?

[00:33:01.82] spk_0:
Can lead us astray

[00:33:02.98] spk_1:
if you’re not aware of how they work. Now. I like to argue that to some level intuition is our unconscious data evaluation

[00:33:11.98] spk_0:
because it’s that well informed. You think

[00:33:26.63] spk_1:
well it’s unconscious. So it’s not all that well informed, but it follows the same model, right? Intuition is basically saying, here’s what I think will happen based on what happens to me in the past. And so the problem with intuition is it’s limited to your own experience. Whereas data can broaden that intuition to lots of other people’s experiences, right? Everyone in your student database gets to contribute to that data driven intuition rather than just your singular experience,

[00:34:13.55] spk_0:
aren’t we? Uh, particularly poor data uh, data analysts, you know, as we we we think, oh, the price of gas is is the highest it’s ever been. But we don’t know that in the early 19 eighties actually had spiked maybe not absolutely higher, but as a percentage it was it was a greater increase or something like that, aren’t we? Um I don’t want to necessarily say intuitively but inherently aren’t we? Inherently bad data scientists or of you know bad data aggregators aggregators.

[00:34:23.20] spk_1:
It’s a great question and the answer is sometimes and sometimes not,

[00:34:29.49] spk_0:
you know,

[00:36:08.85] spk_1:
so we as humans are incredibly good at making and finding patterns. In fact we are still better than many ai systems. Certainly better than any of the like hard coded ways of finding patterns. Um Like my two year old can could figure out the difference. I mean actually before when she was like 15 months old she knew the difference between dogs and cats, right? She would look around and be like that’s a dog basket cat, Ai still trying to figure that out. For the most part if you show them pictures of dogs and cats, they get close but they still get mixed up. And our ability to find those patterns and extrapolate those patterns out accurately is unparalleled. But to your point we’re not very good at being able to bring huge amounts of numbers together in an accurate kind of way. So if you throw a spreadsheet up and you’re like what is the spreadsheet tell me right? Like what’s what’s the average increase in prices? What is the peak of the prices and the dip of the prices or whatever. It might be. We’re not very good with handling like those huge amounts of numbers. Um And we do have other cognitive shortcuts that can can trip us up sometimes. So what I like to always say is that for us as humans, we want to use our skills where our skills are better than computers. And we want to give tasks back to computers where they’re going to be better. So again, for us, where we’re going to be a lot better, is looking at lots of different pieces of data results from data analysis and understanding how that fits together in the big picture. But how do we put together a decline in overall donors with an increase in average donor? So guys, with this engagement level of volunteers, we can put that together and understand what that might mean for our nonprofit a lot better than the computer is. But don’t ask someone to buy hand, go back and track how many hours every single volunteer did get an excel sheet to do that.

[00:36:38.99] spk_0:
Okay, leave us with, uh, leave us with some inspiration about data literacy and, and uh, what it’s gonna do for our, our, our work.

[00:38:19.95] spk_1:
A simple question. Right? So for me, the reason that I called this presentation, the imperative is I believe that we do have an imperative. We have both a moral imperative and a practical imperative. The way donations are really going and the way funding is really going for nonprofits. People want to see impact. They want to know when I give you $10. What happens with those $10? And in the past we’ve been able to say, oh we bought 15 lunches for those $10 and that was enough. Now what people want to say is well, are you helping people, you know no longer be unemployed? Are you keeping people out from being homeless? Are you able to actually make farmers more secure against rising temperatures? And those kinds of impacts are difficult to do with just simple check marks, right? Simple counting. You have to have more sophisticated data technologies and more sophisticated analytics to really be able to measure the impact that people want to see. So that’s the practical side of the imperative is if you want to survive as a nonprofit, you’re going to be able, you’re going to have to show and calculate and track the actual impact that your organization is having. The moral side is that we as nonprofits exist to make the world a better place and I don’t know of a better way to succeed at that than by using data effectively. The scientific method, the whole approach of testing things, measuring whether you get closer to your goal and adjusting what you did and trying it again is the best way that I have found to get good results. So if we are saying that we are here to make things better, then I believe we have then a moral imperative to do the best we can to make things better. And data literacy is a critical tool in that.

[00:38:52.55] spk_0:
The imperative to increase data literacy across your organization, Alexandra mana rings are first PhD epidemiology guest, I’m sure we’ve had master’s degrees in epidemiology but never a PhD I’m quite certain she’s founder of Morocco knows m E R A K I N O. S Alexandra. Thank you very much, enjoyed it.

[00:39:11.66] spk_1:
Thank you so much for having me here today.

[00:39:13.59] spk_0:
My pleasure

[00:39:15.37] spk_1:
and

[00:40:37.77] spk_0:
thank you for being with nonprofit radio coverage of 22 N. T. C. The nonprofit technology conference Next week. A 22 NTC pause board members are people too with judy Levine if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to where like I’m 14 voice crack were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits your story is their mission, turn life into dot C. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D just like three D. But they go on to mention deeper and they’ve got the offer go to the listener landing page. That’s it. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant grab the listener offer. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for. The other 95% Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for August 1, 2022: Tech Policies That Reduce Toxic Productivity

 

Marina Martinez-Bateman: Tech Policies That Reduce Toxic Productivity

First, what is toxic productivity? Then, as your teams use technology more often for work, how might your practices be hurting the people who work with you? Finally, what are the better practices and policies? It’s all covered by Marina Martinez-Bateman, from New Coyote Consulting. (This is part of our continuing #22NTC coverage.)

 

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[00:02:04.85] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with sudo a graphia if you wrote to me saying that you missed this week’s show tech policies that reduce toxic productivity first, what is toxic productivity then as your teams use technology more often for work, how might your practices be hurting the people you work with? Finally what are the better practices and policies? It’s all covered by Marina Martinez Bateman at new coyote consulting this is part of our continuing 22 NTC coverage On Tony’s take two. Please start your plan giving with will’s part do we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I Tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for d just like three D but they go one dimension deeper. Here is tech policies that reduce toxic productivity. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N. T C. The 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by the very smart folks at N 10 will help us all use technology in our work with me now is marina Martinez Bateman. They are ceo of new coyote consulting marina. Welcome.

[00:02:10.16] spk_1:
Hi thanks for having me it’s a joy to be on the show.

[00:02:31.96] spk_0:
Oh joy thank you very much and we’re just getting started joyful already I love it. Thank you your session topic is tech policies for reducing toxic productivity. Natural question is how could productivity possibly be toxic? What what is this thing?

[00:04:06.63] spk_1:
Well, it’s like anything else, right? You know, you buy a couple of pairs of nice shoes that you like. It’s not toxic, there’s nothing wrong here. It’s just engaging in some, you know, some trade some some joy of craftsmanship. If you start buying shoes instead of food, buying shoes instead of paying the rent, then you have a real problem, right? And productivity is like that, you know, it’s just like any other thing that we engage in, we can do it so hard that it hurts us. Um toxic productivity is when we will choose work over things that we need like taking lunch breaks or moving our body or engaging with family and community things that sort of are essential to our mental and physical health. And then you know what happens is as we engage more and more with this toxic level of productivity are actual real true product. Our output diminishes and then we see our output diminish, we get really upset about that and then we double down on being more and more productive and and then our output diminishes because we’re exhausted and we’re not getting filled up in other places and we double down again and it can lead to, you know, you can create uh you know really unhealthy spaces, you can um you know make yourself ill, you can hurt yourself. You can get hurt. You know how many people have fallen asleep while driving um because they’re working too many hours. Um you know, how many times do we make really silly mistakes when we’re exhausted? Um Those things sort of creep in and creep in and then your identity starts to change into being someone who can’t get things right, who isn’t able to perform when that was never a part of your reality. You’re just engaging way too hard in work. Thinking that that’s the answer to your problem when really it’s the cause.

[00:04:55.89] spk_0:
And before we go further and toxic productivity, let’s remind folks in case there’s any question. Uh, you said, you know, and it replaces being filled up by other spaces like community, family friends. Let’s remind folks of the joys that and and maybe there’s even research that shows the physiological changes when we’re engaging in things that are not work.

[00:06:45.10] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. So you get different parts of your brain activated when you’re engaging in hobbies that are different from your work, um, your creative life. You know, if you have a creative job, um sometimes doing something that’s not so creative or doesn’t require a lot of like big innovative leaps. Um can be nice, like, you know, tidying up or taking a walk or um doing something physical, like hiking or going out into the outdoors, going fishing and camping etcetera. Or even going shopping or going to the movies, like those things when they’re safe. Of course, because it’s still covid right now um are important to engage in because they activate other spots of your brain and also just your body moves differently on a hike than it does in the office or at a desk. Yeah, first of all it moves your standing desk, even if you attach a treadmill to it or something can never really replicate going outside. Um and then, you know, were people even introverted people need other people. We just do, we’re not um we cannot exist completely alone. Um we have to be able to engage in the people that we have in our personal bubble, However big that bubble is we have to be able to sort of like activate um that empathetic drive that we all have as humans or that, you know, the vast majority of us do. Um and we we just have to be in in concert, you know, how many of us have been at work, especially in the nonprofit sphere and things are sort of looking gloomy and we’re thinking, oh, the world is filled with bad people, everyone’s making terrible choices. This is the worst. You know, And then you go to dinner with a friend and you’re like, wait, the world is wonderful, this is great, everyone’s making great choices. I bet all these people are just trying to figure it out because that human connection needs to exist for us to be people in the world, which is you know why we’re here is to be people.

[00:07:04.40] spk_0:
Thank you for that reminder. We are we are communal, we are social,

[00:07:08.46] spk_1:
even

[00:07:33.77] spk_0:
the most introverted to some degree still as you said, you know with however however however many or few it may be uh contact community. Alright. Alright. So what are nonprofits doing that uh is leading us to toxic productivity and we’ll certainly get to the solutions. But what are we doing to? I don’t wanna I don’t wanna say improve it to induce it, induce

[00:11:52.01] spk_1:
it. Yeah. I mean part of it is that we have these and these are, it’s great that we all want to end hunger and that we you know, no one’s being like though But it’s hard when you have 16 people and they’re all making 20-50 to 100% less than they could make in the free market trying to end hunger from a small office with broken chairs and a raccoon that won’t leave the trash alone. You know like we are so severely under resourced in non profit and that’s not our individual fault by any means. It’s the culture and the structures of the culture that we live in um where poor people are the people that build this country and their labor is so exploited that they are um kept poor so that the rich can stay rich. Um and then we get the nonprofits and generally those are the people we serve are the poor or people who are missing something from their, their experience or their needs. And uh, and we’re under resource too. I mean it’s a whole, it’s a whole culture, right? It’s a whole structure, It’s a whole system that’s made to make it so that we have these incredibly vast missions and we have a broken pencil and our own gumption to make it happen. And um, and it is, you know, we as individuals cannot solve that entire problem by ourselves. One, we can’t solve the problem that we’re working on by ourselves. We can end hunger alone. Um, even the most vast and well resourced organization would have to work with others in order to make that happen. Um, and part of that. So we have this like we have these vast resources. We are severely under resourced. We have these vast missions. Yeah, and were severely under resourced. And then, um, what we as organizations do on the, on the organization to organization level is that we compete with one another. We don’t coordinate with our organizations in our same sphere or it’s hard we find it hard to coordinate. Um, we also don’t recognize that we’re under resourced. Um, frequently we will sort of like, you know, when you get a bunch of nonprofit workers together in a room, we’ll joke about, you know, how we don’t have a chair that works in our computer is 15 years old and all these things. Um, but we don’t talk about how that makes the mission harder to do. And nor do we talk about how we’re still hitting goalposts were still crossing finish lines were still making things work. And where did those resources come from in general? They come from the individual workers. Um, and some of us have vast resources to put to this and some of us don’t. Um, but there’s no adjustment, a there’s no adjustment of expectation based on how much resource we’re individually putting into the work to make it across the finish line. And there’s also no um, it’s seen as an individual failing if we can’t do this impossible work with very little resource in the, in in in terms of money, in terms of time, in terms of support, in terms of whatever we’re all fighting an uphill battle. And um, and our organizations frequently lean into that martyrdom and lean into that, you know, while I was working 17 hours yesterday, while I was up at two o’clock in morning, finished with this grant, Well, I was, you know, and um, and it doesn’t have to be like that. I mean if we live in a world where we think that our clients deserve education, food, um, healthy ecology to, to roman community art, all of these things, you know, medicine and um, recovery and all these things that we provide to people if we think that our clients deserve that. How come we’re not getting that for ourselves. Like how many of us are pushing off things like doctor’s appointments? How many of us us have skipped um, significant times in our family members lives because there was some campaign or something that had to go on. And then also how much of that um, happens because of expectation, you know, when we start a nonprofit, we’re working with nothing. We work our way up, we become leaders in the, in the sector. And then it doesn’t seem weird to us that the people of the workers that are coming behind us are experiencing the same hardships that we experienced because it’s normal for us to struggle in this way.

[00:13:14.45] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications media relationships, you know, how important relationships are in fundraising. They’re just as important in media exposure. Both of the turn two partners are former journalists, including one peter Pan a pinto who was an editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. So they both know what to do and what not to do to build your relationships with journalists. Those relationships are going to get you heard in the media, turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o now back to tech policies that reduce toxic productivity. A lot of what you’re saying is that it’s it’s culture and and mindset. So I guess you’d like to change the culture and change the mindset and change the investments. Um, so please, let’s, uh, let’s start talking about what we can do differently.

[00:14:17.04] spk_1:
I think what we can do differently is it starts with the leadership and nonprofits. People who are lower on the work chart do not have as much power, although a lot of people, especially right now with the great resignation, um, a lot of people who are lower on the r chart are sort asserting their power by leaving, um, environments that are toxic or don’t work for, um, what their vision is for the future. I think gen z is a great motivator for us to all take a look at how we’ve been working in the past and how it has harmed us and how if we don’t get right and start cycle breaking, we are going to be perpetuating the same harm that was done to us, which while it’s not fair that we were harmed, it’s also not fair to, to sort of sloth that off onto others. Um, but in leadership in the non profits, we have to stop thinking that because it happened to us. It’s okay for it to happen to other workers, especially younger workers.

[00:14:18.77] spk_0:
Like it’s some sort of, you know, rite of passage, you pay your dues and then you’ll then you’ll emerge a better leader in the, in the sector, you know? That’s, that’s silly. Yeah.

[00:14:31.40] spk_1:
Yeah. And

[00:14:32.07] spk_0:
punishing to be, you don’t have to be punished to be successful.

[00:14:41.74] spk_1:
Exactly. Can we be like, can we be the non profit executives and ceos that we needed when we were younger and that we didn’t get, can we do the things that that would have helped us to heal or would have helped us to be safe or be properly resourced or succeed even if that’s not something that we experienced when we were younger in career.

[00:15:03.98] spk_0:
Alright. Um do you have specific uh specific things that leaders can, can encourage? Like you must take time off. So, you know, I don’t wanna see anybody not using their vacation time. And you know, these folks who say, hey, I haven’t had a vacation in four years. I’m so proud of myself thinking like, don’t blame me, that’s your own

[00:15:23.35] spk_1:
fault.

[00:15:24.55] spk_0:
Yeah. It’s been that long. It’s your own fault for not taking, you know? So what, what, what can leaders do, you know, specifically to avoid this? The toxic productivity

[00:18:02.90] spk_1:
is, Yeah. That that sort of thing where it’s like, well, it’s not my fault that Sharon hasn’t taken a vacation in seven years saying that is a thing we can put to bed and we can say actually, if I’m in charge of this organization and of course we work together with our boards and advisory council sometimes with governmental agencies, whoever we’re helping to steward this change with. Um but if I am the Ceo here, I am the executive here then if someone hasn’t taken a vacation in four years, that’s, that’s on me. Um, This is the, this is the container I’m building for workers. Um, I see my view my duties as the Ceo very explicitly to keep the people in my, you know, in my organization safe. That’s one of the things that, that I have, you know, task been tasked with is to keep people safe. Um, if I can tell people what kind of work we’re doing and where we’re going and what our goals are, then I have to take responsibility for their safety during that journey because I’m the one taking them at that place. I’m the one on that journey with them. Um, and so asking, you know, why is it, why is it that Sharon feels like she can’t take a vacation. Um, Is there something going on internally that is making that happen? Does she not have anyone who’s trained on the thing that she does? Does she, um, has she not gotten a performance review in four years and she’s so she doesn’t feel like she can take a vacation because she doesn’t even know how well she’s doing her job. You know, there’s just a bunch of little things that we can look at and it takes time, which most of us don’t have. And I advise leaders to look at our plate and find out where we’re being performative lee productive, How many of the things do we do every day That looks like we’re doing something but at the end of the day it doesn’t actually, it doesn’t actually contribute to the mission. We can spend three hours on something and um and not only are no more Children fed, they’re not going to be on that labor that we just did, but it looks really good. It looks like we’re doing a lot. How can we cut that out and then focus on, let’s get somebody cross trained on Sharon’s job so that she can finally take a vacation. Let’s let’s make this a safe space for our workers to make healthy decisions. And the truth is that because a lot of our sector has for so long leaned into this under resourcing of workers, there becomes a pathology around being under resourced. There becomes a sort of like um system wide martyrdom.

[00:19:20.63] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. They have an offer for you. An exclusive offer for nonprofit radio listeners, complimentary 24 7 monitoring of your I. T. Assets for three months. They’ll monitor your servers, network and cloud performance, they’ll monitor your backup performance all 24/7. Any issues they will let you know ASAP Plus at the end you will get a comprehensive report. After the three months They’ll throw in a few surprises a couple of things as well that I did not mention. It’s all complimentary and it’s for the 1st 10 listeners. The offer is on the listener landing page, go grab it, tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. And this offer goes even deeper than that. Let’s return to tech policies that reduce toxic productivity. There’s something called the brotherhood of suffering.

[00:19:23.27] spk_1:
Exactly.

[00:19:24.01] spk_0:
It’s it’s I’ve read about it in prison populations where I mean the phrase says it, the brotherhood, sisterhood, um the hood of suffering, the uh the shared experience among all folks of being in something that’s ritualistic, punishing suffering difficult. And then and it ends up being a source of almost pride.

[00:19:52.07] spk_1:
Yes,

[00:19:52.65] spk_0:
that we’re suffering this way together, right? I’m sure you want to turn that on its head and and disabuse us of

[00:21:28.90] spk_1:
that. It’s and it’s hard, it’s entrenched. There are people for whom for whatever reason and then this does become an individual problem. Once you’ve done all of the systematic things around alleviating that suffering around creating um you know, the concept of abundance even as we’re in these systems where we’re under resourced and part of that is acknowledging how we’re under resource and and and speaking its name out loud um which is capitalism and racism and colonialism. Um once we sort of do that in our organizations, there are still going to be people for whom it is necessary they need, that they feel for whatever reason that that this is what they have to do, this is how they have to work. Um and and in general what I find um in the times that I’ve managed to create this package, which is really hard to do, Well we have all these other external forces sort of like working for us to have this hero complex to keep in this savior mindset. Um When I’ve been able to make this abundance package the sort of container where we can all work in abundance towards our common goals. There are a couple of people who will leave and sometimes it’s messy. Sometimes it’s not thankfully, but sometimes it is messy. Um But it’s because they need to be in an environment that feels like home to them and that toxicity is going to feel like home until they make the choice to step out of it and and recognize that this is this is a choice that that they’ve made their systemic issues at hand and then there’s individual issues at hand and we as C. E. O. S can do a lot to solve the systemic issues and also we can never make someone heal

[00:21:54.39] spk_0:
themselves. What’s some of that performative work that you uh that you mentioned, just if you could take off two or three things that are performative but lacking in value and and and benefit

[00:22:13.27] spk_1:
um staying in the office on a day when there’s no reason to, you know, if uh something like something tragic frequently happens, if there’s something terribly tragic in our community,

[00:22:19.73] spk_0:
requiring

[00:23:47.90] spk_1:
requiring everyone to keep their butts in their seats is just ridiculous. No one’s working. That’s not gonna happen. Um, even sort of staying in the office when there are things going on that are, are wonderful. Um, for example, uh, if it’s, you know, if we are living in a beach town and it’s a great surf day and we are a surf, you know, protecting the surf non profit everybody goes surf. Like come on, this is our whole thing. Like it doesn’t make any sense. If we are, say we are, you know, very into free media and we have a free media conference in town, nobody should be expected to come to work. We should get tickets to the free media conference and we should go to that. Um, you know, there are a lot of things I think, um, you know, if we’re a big sports town and our team is winning, nobody’s going to pay attention to work. There’s no reason to be here. All of these things. You know, they’re all individual to the nonprofit. Then there’s also things like, you know, some of us and I’m one of these people, I admit it, I love to see a meeting room packed with people. We love it. But half those people do, they need to be there. Do they really do this really important to, to the running of the nonprofit that, that, you know, so many people are there for an hour doing nothing and, or you know, getting information that could have been in an email or you know, etcetera. Um Yeah, I think there’s some people have gone into the, Oh, I can’t remember what they call it, but they do 15 minutes stand ups every morning and they’re never 15 minutes long. They always run over.

[00:23:55.84] spk_0:
Yes.

[00:24:43.06] spk_1:
Yeah. The morning huddle. I mean if the morning huddle makes you guys productive and it helps your nonprofit do the thing you’re, you’re put here to do great. But a lot of times these huddles are just performative and it’s awful and everyone’s so tired because it’s the first thing in the morning and there’s no reason for them. Um I think also there’s a lot of like email checking that happens throughout the day for me as one of the ways that I am performative li productive and and my my only employee is remote. We’re all remote here so no one’s watching me. No one can see me in here. But I will sit here and check email because I want to quote unquote, feel productive. And so then I spent 2.5 hours moving emails around the digital space doing nothing and I leave and then I leave, you know, I have to go to lunch or it’s the end of the day or something. I didn’t need to be there and do that. There was there was no reason.

[00:28:05.26] spk_0:
Alright. Those are good. Yeah, good examples. Thanks. It’s time for Tony’s take two. This is still my silver jubilee in planned giving and august is still national maker Will month. So let’s take part due of starting your planned giving program with wills. These are gonna be reasons 45 and six reasons one through three were last week reason number four. There’s no lifetime cost to your donors. These are long term gifts. A gift in a will is a gift of cash to your nonprofit at the donor’s death. So no lifetime cost for your donors giving by will sustainability. This is all about the sustainability of your work, your mission, your values. That’s what the conversations are all about. It’s the survivability of your work in the long term. That’s what the conversations are about. That’s what plan giving is going to help supplement is gonna really be more than a supplement. It’s going to be critical to your long term survivability, your sustainability reason number six endowment, whether you have no endowment and you need to start growing building one or you have a modest endowment, you want to grow it more or you have a good size endowment and you still want to grow it more because when do we ever say the endowments big enough? No need to add to that anymore. Let’s stop that. Cut that off. That. Never. So wherever you are with endowment, even if you’re at $0.0. Most of the gifts by Will the vast majority come unrestricted and that means you take as much of that unrestricted money as possible and put it into your endowment. That long term savings for your nonprofit, that you’re only spending a little bit of the income or maybe even less than the annual income each year. That’s how you grow that endowment gifts by Will I realize there’s tension there. You have immediate short term costs, expenses that you have to cover as well. But as much as possible, those unrestricted dollars that come from gifts by Will’s sock that away into the Endowment, That’s how you build your endowment. And of course that helps, uh, reason number five, your sustainability. Right? It all works together. So that’s reasons 4, 5 and six for starting your planned giving program with wills. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo Yes, the boo koo is back, boo koo, but loads more time for tech policies that reduce toxic productivity with marina Martinez Bateman. Is there more that, that we can ask of our of our leaders. You not that you haven’t given given, given a lot of, a lot of advice, but uh, is there any more that, that we can expect from our leaders to help us make the right choices.

[00:32:17.95] spk_1:
Yeah. And part of that is so we are in a unique space as leaders where we are suffering from the exact same ailments that our people are suffering from and we are suffering from the exact same structures of oppression that our people are, something, I mean not the exact same ones, but we’re here. We’re in it, right? So all of that. Um, you know, all the systems that are set up to make it so that personal health and art and the environment and food and health like um, communities and all these other things that we fight for right in the nonprofit sector. All these things are devalued, we’re in the same boat. Um, and also we do have power within the walls of our organization. Sometimes it’s limited, Sometimes there’s other factors at play, but we have more power than anyone else in the building almost um, with very few exceptions and so part of it is that we have to make certain sacrifices as leaders, which I think all of us know, but those sacrifices are probably not going to be the ones, the ones I recommend are not gonna be the ones that we expect. So, um, we need to protect our own time. We need to be seen eating lunch. We need to be seen taking time to move our bodies. Um, a lot of the things that we do as leaders are are the second we get to work the second we log on whenever our day starts, we are being seen by everyone of the organization. Even if it’s a small organization, even if it’s a remote organization, we don’t realize how visible we are. Um, and so when we model these behaviors for people taking vacation, telling people about how wonderful and restoring the vacation was, reassuring people um that it’s okay to take vacation for themselves, leaning into abundance even though we know what the budget is and we know scarcity very intimately um making those choices um that are that are on mission, um that are values driven because that’s what we’re called to do. Um and then having to make tough calls as a leader is it’s why we’re here, it’s why we got put in this seat. Um it’s why we sought the seat, we wanted this position most of us and um and so it’s time to sort of like what we sacrifice when we have this out, like when we’re modeling this good behavior is we sacrifice any delusions that we might have had towards the productivity nature of of, you know, performative productivity, right? So those big meetings have a ton of people in them that are really kind of just ego strokes for us, we can get rid of those, that’s a sacrifice that that is a good sacrifice to make. Um a lot of times we do things like we have those big meetings because we’re not feeling very productive, but we want to see everybody’s face, you know working. Um and really what we needed to do was take lunch and start taking lunch probably three months three or four months ago or years ago or 10 or 1520 years ago. Um and then we would feel productive and filled up and we would need a big meeting of 15 people that doesn’t do anything. Um So so modeling the behavior ourselves is very very important and um and specifically in a way that is seen um It can be very hard because as leaders we want to say well I’m gonna take I’m modeling the behavior, I’m gonna take off early, I’m gonna go home and um that is valid and if we need to do that we should do that. And also say okay everybody we’re going home early this day is just whatever happened this day is in the pits, let’s go home early. If we can of course some of us can’t do that because we have certain service obligations. Um But we can do things like look around the room, take the temperature of the room and say all right, everybody we’re getting you know pizzas delivered or whatever. Uh We’re just going to sit down and hang out together and blow off some steam. I can feel it, we just we’re not doing productive work right now. You

[00:32:40.29] spk_0:
know, be thoughtful, be intentional about creating about the culture you’re creating and that culture starts with leadership. Whether whether you might be the Ceo or you might be a mid level leader, you might be uh lower on the work charter. Lower level leader, but you’re still leading two or three people. Right? I mean it applies. This is not only for the ceo your ceo but this is not only for C E O S. Alright.

[00:32:58.79] spk_1:
Yeah. The people like your choices are going to be dependent on what’s up with the people and focused on them and then model the behavior that you because you know that a lot of us don’t realize how seen we are in our organizations were very, very visible if we’re in a leadership position.

[00:33:17.88] spk_0:
Yeah, interesting. You made the point, you know, even even in a virtual organizations like yours? Virtual company. Well so flesh that out. How do you feel like folks know when you start logging in, when you’re reading email etcetera. How is that seen, how is it seen,

[00:34:04.48] spk_1:
how am I checking in? You know, if we have a digital chat platform, how am I checking in? Am I showing up? Am I saying Hey I’m here. Am I asking questions um am I you know, am I asking for feedback? You know, am I am I visible enough for you? Am I you know, am I bugging you too much like um and listening to people interesting people when they tell you what’s going on with them? Um and also trying to remember, it’s very hard, it can be very hard with everything going on that you have to do as a leader. But when someone says, hey I’m gonna be out for the afternoon, put it in your own calendar and make sure that you don’t reach out to them during that time. Yeah.

[00:34:31.80] spk_0:
Right. Those, those uh slacks or texts or emails, whatever it is that start sorry to bother you on your day off. But, but of course the university and the gator cancels everything before it. But I need, you know, blah, blah. That, you know, there’s so much of that could, you could just wait until the day off is over. So the week off, you know, and, and you, you said earlier, you know, cross training so that people feel they can take time and so that the organization doesn’t suffer when they do

[00:35:20.51] spk_1:
exactly if so, and so doesn’t have the thing. I’ve cross trained this other person, which of course, you know, it’s easy for me to sit here in my office and say cross training when a person listening is looking at me like what with what resources with what people, but that’s where the sacrifices come in. You have to say, okay, well, this vanity project of mine doesn’t happen because cross training is happening instead or this. And somebody bristled when I said vanity project, I know it, but we all have them, They exist. We’ve got to accept that that they exist. So instead of the thing I want, we do cross training because that’s, that’s, and eventually I’ll get the thing I want probably, especially if it’s mission aligned. And it makes sense. But we have to prioritize workers needs and comfort because we have a lot of options here. The people that we employ have less options than us have fewer options than us. And so we need to to honor that.

[00:35:33.89] spk_0:
What about some questions that you got questions or comments you got in your session and what, what do you what do you what stuck out for you?

[00:35:56.29] spk_1:
I always get this question in all, every time I teach this training, I get this question. And it’s some version of the, you know, my co worker, my direct report, my boss, my board member is very into toxic productivity. They’re very into this. They’re they’re the ones that are always, you know, I was answering emails from the hospital when I was in labor with my second daughter or, you know, all of this stuff. Um, that’s, that’s very badge of honor. You know, we wear these sort of like wounds like metals and non profit. Um,

[00:36:14.11] spk_0:
that’s the personhood of suffering. The personhood of suffering. It isn’t bad. They do become a badge of honor. I’m always the last person to leave the office. Yes.

[00:39:21.34] spk_1:
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And uh, and and and this person is that they’re they’re toxic productivity is harming people. They’re pushing the culture, you know more and more to work more and more. Um, they have unrealistic expectations of people that work nearer with them, etcetera, etcetera. It’s harmful. And what I always tell people is, you know, you can do this. Uh first of all, your proximity to this person is not a coincidence at some point, you guys probably saw eye to eye on this or were working together in tandem to create something that really worked for you. Um you know, I look back on my nonprofit career and one of the my best times, one of my favorite times in my career was just deeply into toxic productivity. And so was everyone else around me. And it was wonderful because we were all on the same page. We felt like such a good team. We were so unified and the way we thought about things and the way we thought about things was deeply unhealthy. Um, but I tell them, you know, you can tell this person, especially if you really care about them outside of work. Um, you can say, I think we’re in a toxic relationship. I think we are operating in a way that is making each other less healthy. That’s not not helping us thrive. I want to try and heal from this. I think that healing is going to bring about a really incredibly positive change not only for me, but for the work that we’re doing here. Will you, will you heal with me, will you come in this on this journey with me and you can ask them with sincerity and the truth is that you can’t do anything else other than that. Just ask them and if they say no, you can’t keep asking them, you have to you have to respect that and everyone has has their own path, you know and not everyone is going to hell at the rate that you are going to hell at, not everyone is going to hell the way you think you should or they should. Um Some people just have other journeys and so if you are that person’s boss you can make decisions about, okay well we’re going in a different direction, we need competencies around healthy productivity, you don’t have the competencies around healthy productivity that we need, therefore we’re no longer a good fit and that hurts. It’s hard to say those things, but if I had, you know if I said you know we’re gonna go we’re gonna move towards gap accounting, everyone, you know, we’ve got to do things uh best practices ways and and not have you know our accounting all willy nilly and our account at the time was like nope, I do my accounting on post its and I will never not do that. You can’t make me change then we would have to get into accountant, wouldn’t we? So it’s the same thing when we’re trying to create this healthier productivity. If someone doesn’t want to learn or become competent in this in this new work way, we can’t keep them on just because we like them or because of what they did in the past that was helpful. Um, we can honor them and say that, that, you know, thank you very much and we can also release them to continue on their own journey, whatever that is.

[00:39:39.03] spk_0:
What have we not talked about that? Uh, you want to?

[00:39:50.18] spk_1:
Um, good question. Uh, I

[00:39:58.22] spk_0:
mean I do my best to channel our listeners, but you’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I’m just coming to it. So maybe the stuff that we, I haven’t raised,

[00:40:02.09] spk_1:
Yeah, let’s talk about perfectionism

[00:40:04.55] spk_0:
because perfectionism

[00:41:37.88] spk_1:
is a, we know for a fact, we know that perfectionism is a, is a feature of white supremacy. Perfectionism is um pervasive and insidious in our culture as a whole, but also a nonprofit culture. And so when we are practicing healthy productivity, when we’re trying to learn how to do things differently, the fact that we’re doing things in a way that we haven’t done them before means that we’re not gonna be as good, effortlessly good at them. Um, as we were before, even if we were doing something that ultimately harmed ourselves and our organization and our mission, we were really good at it for a long time, we had a high level of proficiency. So when you sort of like decide to go home at five o’clock and walk around the block and then take a bubble bath or whatever. That’s not gonna feel super good because you’re not gonna be super good at it. Um I can’t tell you how many times I used to buy coloring books because I was like, I need to be less, you know, work centric and I need to do creative things. I miss being creative and so I would buy those adult coloring books and I would hurt my fingers from coloring so hard because it had to be perfect. Um and then I would think, okay, no, I can’t do this, it’s too, it’s too physical, this coloring is to physical, I’ll go get in a bath that will relax me and I would sit in this bath just tense because I’m supposed to be relaxing and I’m, and I’m not doing

[00:41:42.14] spk_0:
right,

[00:42:34.73] spk_1:
Exactly right and but it’s not working because you, you’re not familiar with it, it’s hard. The first time you did anything, it was just kind of a little bit difficult and a little bit unwieldy and overwhelming and you know, for those of us who have been neglecting our other, the other parts of our lives for however long because of work, it is daunting to go into a place, we feel very new act, especially when we’ve been in a place where we feel extremely um you know, experienced and Exactly yeah, so the perfectionism of like if you are going to engage with your community and if you are going to engage your creativity and you’re going to go on a hike and you’re going to, you know, reclaim the other part of your life that isn’t work, be willing to do it badly

[00:42:38.22] spk_0:
because

[00:43:06.34] spk_1:
It’s that important, you have to be able to do it badly because you have to get through that sort of like new, unwieldy part. Um and it’s okay to say like I’m really new at this, I’m only going to hike for 15 minutes or I’m only going to sit at the trailhead and look at the hiking place and then I’m gonna go get back in my car and go home there. There’s no level of engaging with your non work life that is not going to be beneficial. There’s no, it’s not like you have to hike to the top of the mountain. I mean, this is part of the toxic productivity that’s been, you know, making this this bad scene this whole time, right, is that we feel like we have to um do everything the best the most, regardless of what else is going on.

[00:43:29.56] spk_0:
You’re not gonna, you’re not gonna start your physical fitness journey with a triathlon. You know, you’re gonna run around the block and in a week you’ll be able to run around the block twice, pardon me, or

[00:43:37.66] spk_1:
maybe just walk to the end of the block

[00:43:51.58] spk_0:
or whatever, however you start, right? But but starting and you’re saying, you know, your embrace the discomfort because it’ll become comfortable and you’ll get better at it. You know, you’re in a pattern now where you’re, you know, you’re like you said highly efficient, highly efficient at toxic behaviors.

[00:44:40.44] spk_1:
You’re really good at this and you can be really good at something else too. I mean I remember there was an interview with terry crews who is an actor and he’s very muscly and um, people always ask him, how do you get so buff? Like you always, and he said, look, the gym is my happy place. And so I can’t tell you a person who doesn’t really like the gym how to get like me. I look like this because I hang out at the gym all the time. It’s my favorite place. But he also says, you know, go take, if you really like something, take it to the gym with you. So if you really like romance novels or mysteries or something, go and go and take your mystery novel to the gym and just sit there, read your mystery novel and then go home and then, you know, you don’t have to pick up a weight. You don’t have to do a single thing. Just hang out there because it’s for a lot of people like the weight room at the gym even, especially it’s like a very new place. It’s pretty foreign. There’s a lot of traditions. There’s rules, You don’t really know what they are. Um, so climb acclimatizing yourself to a new place, you

[00:45:01.71] spk_0:
know?

[00:45:03.53] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:45:06.13] spk_0:
Alright leave us with with something inspirational, please marina,

[00:45:11.70] spk_1:
there’s been

[00:45:12.13] spk_0:
A lot of inspiration summit up some up 40 minutes as best you can.

[00:45:56.91] spk_1:
Well when we think about how much we as non profit workers on an individual level, on an organizational level and on a sector wide level have been able to achieve and and move the needle on with with how little we’re given if we made sure that we ourselves were properly resourced in order to do this transformative work. Imagine how much more could be accomplished by people who are showing up fully in their power to this mission work. I mean it’s incredible. And then also the thing I like to remind everyone in my trainings is that this is generational work. I have generations of people behind me, you know relatives and ancestors who have done their own mission work and I will have generations of people in front of me doing the mission work that they’re called to do and all I have to do is show up for my part my link in that chain

[00:46:15.19] spk_0:
marina, Martinez Bateman ceo. New coyote consulting. I have to ask why is it new coyote consulting. What is that?

[00:47:51.63] spk_1:
Its new coyote because I wanted a name that spoke to my ancestry which is Mesoamerican and uh and which spoke to my sort of like presence and the way I show up and the Aztec there’s an Aztec god way which means very old coyote and um I thought he’s um frequently gendered as a as a male but very also frequently gendered as non binary or female. So I’m non binary. It felt very like I felt a lot of kinship with with that and then um old very old coyote is a storyteller and he teaches through storytelling so that felt very appropriate to me as well. You know, he’s not didactic, he’s not teaching humans lessons or if he is ever teaching humans lessons, it’s in this very jokey sort of way. Um, he brings people along with him on journeys rather than sort of like telling them to go places. Um, and I uh, I also feel like in the context that I’m in, which is a very white context and a very colonizer context frequently a lot of people will call my work new, they’ll say that the things I’m doing are new, these new ideas, their new concepts and for me they’re not new. They’re very, very old. Um, but also new coyote is a transformer. He’s a trickster. So he, he becomes the thing that you need in the moment and I thought, well then we’re a new coyote, we’re not a very old coyote, we’re a brand new one. So that’s why I named us new coyote. Yeah,

[00:48:02.71] spk_0:
again marina Martinez Bateman Ceo at new coyote consulting marina, thank you very much you’re

[00:48:09.07] spk_1:
welcome. Thank you so much for having me on

[00:49:33.75] spk_0:
you’re welcome to and thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of the 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10 next week increase data literacy across your nonprofit you see how all these data and tech topics are fit together. It’s all very highly produced here very highly. If you missed these things just don’t happen if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go on to mention deeper and now they’ve got the offer, grab the listener offer at the landing page. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for July 25, 2022: Cybersecurity 101

 

Matt Eshleman & Sarah Wolfe: Cybersecurity 101

Our #22NTC coverage picks back up with a summary of the tech threat landscape, key policies and procedures to have in place, and how to make the case for devoting resources to IT protection. Our guests are Matt Eshleman and Sarah Wolfe, both from Community IT Innovators.

 

 

 

 

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[00:02:05.14] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast my goodness. Last week’s show was great fun. They’re all fun. But the last weeks 600 show was great fun. Oh I’m glad you’re with me for this week’s fun show I’d be thrown into an echo Griffo sis if you clawed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, Cybersecurity 101. Our 22 NTC coverage picks back up with a summary of the tech threat, landscape key policies and procedures to have in place and how to make the case for devoting resources to IT protection. Our guests are matt Eshelman and Sara Wolfe, both from community I. T. Innovators, non tony steak too. My boys just cracked like I’m 14 years old, please start your plan giving with wills. We’re sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like 3D but they go one dimension deeper Here is cybersecurity 101. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 NTC. The 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10. Our coverage brings me now Matt Eshelman chief technology officer at community I T innovators and Sara Wolf sales

[00:02:15.50] spk_1:
manager

[00:02:16.64] spk_0:
Also at Community I. T. Innovators. Matt serra. Welcome to non profit radio

[00:02:23.14] spk_1:
Thanks. tony It’s good to be here.

[00:02:25.34] spk_2:
Thank you. Glad

[00:02:42.84] spk_0:
to have you. Pleasure to have both of you. Um Your session topic is defending against Bogart’s and boogie men understanding and pitching cybersecurity for the accidental techie sarah. Why don’t you get us started? Let’s define accidental techie. I think we have a lot of them listening but they may not know it.

[00:03:13.44] spk_2:
Yeah so accidental techies are the people at an organization that are not necessarily somebody who’s been trained in I. T. But is relatively tech savvy and so they end up being the ones who help their coworkers with tech issues or are the ones that end up wearing the I. T. Support hat even though they might necessarily have they haven’t necessarily gone through professional training for it?

[00:03:32.14] spk_0:
Okay. Right so they know enough that they know more than others but they’re not they’re not professionally trained in technology. Okay and and matt why are why are Bogart’s and boogie men your your description says an accidental techies biggest nightmare what’s lurking there?

[00:03:38.23] spk_1:
Well I think yeah

[00:03:51.34] spk_0:
I don’t even know. Yeah I’m not even an accidental techie. Okay there’s the first problem you like you’re suffering a lackluster host obviously. Okay. Alright

[00:04:28.24] spk_1:
so they I think the takes the form of kind of your your biggest fear and so yeah whenever it appears it it shows up as as what you’re most afraid of um you know and I think for for folks that are supporting nonprofit organizations. Yeah there is this fear of of kind of what could be lurking out there, What kind of threats could impact your organization. Uh and for many folks, especially the accidental techies, they don’t have that background training and experience in terms of how to protect their organization. And so that’s why we wanted to to have that session to help provide some tools and equipment so that people that, you know, have that responsibility, but maybe not the training can pick up a few, a few tips.

[00:04:40.74] spk_0:
Okay. Why don’t you, why don’t you start us off? What would uh what would you like folks to know about that? They don’t know well enough, but they ought to.

[00:05:30.74] spk_1:
I mean, I think the biggest thing for for folks to understand is just I think the importance of what’s called multi factor authentication. So M. F. A. It’s often referred to uh it’s something that, you know, which is your password and then something that you have and for most folks that would be an app on their smartphone. Um and what this gives is an extra layer of protection, you know, we all know people’s passwords get compromised and and kind of stolen all the time. But if you can add that extra layer of, you know, an app on your phone to protect that login, then you’re much much less likely to have your account compromised. And kind of, what we see is that most compromises then, you know, will then lead to other things that you know have significant damage in terms of, you know, emailing, you know, all of the contacts in your organization’s database, uh sending out malicious links, you know, sending out updated payment information so that can kind of lead to a lot of other bad things. And so if we can protect that account with M. F. A. Then the organization becomes a lot more secure.

[00:05:46.54] spk_0:
Okay. And you’d like to see this mandatory? Not opt in

[00:06:16.74] spk_1:
that is exactly right. You know, Microsoft and the other big Um you know, tech providers are starting to enforce that now as a as a requirement, but if you’ve been in office 365 or if you’ve been in Google apps for a long time, uh it’s not required and it’s something that organizations need to take a couple of steps in order to set it up and roll all their staff provide training uh just to make sure that it’s set up and working correctly.

[00:06:27.54] spk_0:
Okay. So we should be doing it, we should be opting in where it’s optional and we should make make it mandatory if we’re the we’re wearing the hat of the uh the accidental techie,

[00:06:32.04] spk_1:
yep. Exactly. Right.

[00:06:37.94] spk_0:
All right. All right. Sarah, what else, what else can you share for? Are these folks

[00:08:13.14] spk_2:
I think for the next biggest thing uh is, you know, making sure that your staff, you know, are actually aware of the different security risks and things like that? Having a security awareness training program is one of the best ways to make sure that even if something, you can have all of the fancy tools in the world, every single like filter and everything, something’s going to slip through. And if you have staff that know what to look for and know not to click on something or not to go on that website or not to, you know, enter their information in various different places. Them having the knowledge is going to be one of the biggest returns on investment in terms of security, antivirus. Uh, we only, we had so few um, issues with antivirus last year, out of the 696 security incidents that we were dealing with, Only seven of them were viruses and only 45 of them were malware. And so it’s much more important for staff to be able to identify what’s a spam email, what, spearfishing. How can I tell if I’m looking at an email from somebody else whose account has been compromised and having the training to make them aware of. That is definitely worth the investment. And there are great tools out there, like, no before that, you know, are really easy to use.

[00:08:31.84] spk_0:
Okay. And so, uh, no, first of all, it was no before like K N O W K N O W before. Okay, I didn’t know about this, but I figured out no. Before. All right. But that’s not that’s not really saying much but any case. Um So is that a security training? Like is that online security training that folks can get it? No before or like how is this accidental techie gonna push this and and offer the training in their in their non profit

[00:10:02.94] spk_2:
That’s great. Yeah. So uh that’s a learning management software and that’s specifically for cybersecurity behaviors and tools. The way that you’re going to pitch this for your organization is to first gather your data, get your plan of attack. And a lot of times you know that involves one Looking for friends in the company to support you to getting data and you know trying to make sure that if you are able to um like find partners either within the organization or maybe even reach out to your board governance committee, um those people are going to be able to you know, help leverage some of the existing requirements that you have, if an organization needs to apply for cyber liability insurance a lot of times multifactor authentication is going to be one of the requirements. A staff security training is going to be one of the requirements. And so being able to leverage those and then putting it putting your plea into terms that people understand if your E. D. Is looking at, you know, what is the comparing the cost of of security, education software versus you know, financial compromise. Like there is a definite argument to be made there

[00:11:03.94] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, media relations and thought leadership. Peter pan a pinto, a turn to partner was on last week. He’s a former journalist at the Chronicle of philanthropy. His partner scott is also a former journalist so they know what to do and what not to do to build relationships with journalists. Those relationships are going to get, you heard turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to cybersecurity 101 you mentioned cyber liability insurance. Is that is that something else? We should be flagging for these for these poor accidental turkeys.

[00:11:08.54] spk_2:
The

[00:11:08.75] spk_0:
beleaguered, beleaguered, accidental techies.

[00:12:16.64] spk_1:
Yeah. I think we’re seeing more and more organizations go through a cyber liability insurance kind of renewal process. Typically that’s something that’s handled by the, you know, the finance department of the organization. What we’re seeing is that, you know, for cyber liability insurance or even for financial audits, they’re becoming a lot more technical. And so it’s likely that if you’ve got any any tech aptitude at all, then you’re being enlisted to help fill out these applications to provide the detailed information that’s being requested. And so yeah, we’re seeing a lot more sophistication being, you know kind of demanded by these insurance companies in terms of, you know understanding which controls are in place because we’re seeing even cases where if you have not turned on multi factor authentication for all your your systems you won’t even be eligible for coverage. Uh and so it’s pretty dramatic that you know organizations are now being, you know, it’s a good idea to protect the organization, you know, for these cyber security controls. But there’s this also this extra layer of requirement from you know, insurance carriers now to say hey like you have to have this so we’re not gonna provide you insurance.

[00:12:40.94] spk_0:
Okay, okay. Sarah, let’s go back to you. I’d ask you about cyber liability insurance and then matt usurped unceremoniously uh usurped your your your your platform. So let’s go back to you what else, what else can you contribute for these for these folks?

[00:13:53.94] spk_2:
Yeah. So with with cyber liability insurance it’s something that oftentimes is getting you know much more of a top down decision making process. Somebody will have, you know, these things like the ransomware and and wire fraud and issues like that have been, we have bubbled up more inter in like the public awareness and so there’s a lot of top down pressure for these things to get adopted and you know there one of the things that they’re also going to ask for is you know, what are your plans? Do you have an acceptable use policy for your I. T. Do you have a plan for when something does go wrong, you know what do people know what to do, who to reach out to, what steps to take? You know because you know you you hope for the best to plan for the worst. And there are a lot of really good resources out there for developing these sorts of acceptable use policies for for creating incident response plans and you know you can um really it can get overwhelming sometimes the number of you know different resources that are available and what to use and what not to use. So you know partnering with somebody who does know you know a little bit more about cybersecurity or is providing that knowledge to the community. Um

[00:14:43.94] spk_0:
Let me guess that that that’s the work of community I. T. Innovators. Am I going out on a limb taking a taking a stab in the dark? Yes. Okay well we’ll get I’ll give you a chance for this for the shout out. Alright explanation. But I’m gonna ask you first what are what are some resources for folks? I mean I’m you got me feeling bad now for these people because we’re like we’re enhancing their to do list but this isn’t even their job that they’re paid for. But yeah we’re talking about looking into insurance and having policies and now now now they are now realizing they are beleaguered because it’s not even their job, they’re just got foisted on them because they know more than all the baby boomers in the

[00:14:53.77] spk_1:
office.

[00:14:56.64] spk_2:
Sometimes it is baby boomers who are accidental techies.

[00:14:59.85] spk_0:
All right. It’s probably not too often. Thank you for that, but probably not not too often. All right. But so what are some resources that folks can can rely on? You said there’s there are many, where can we look?

[00:15:14.44] spk_2:
So I’m going to start with the the self interest pitch first. Uh community I. T. Has a great um library of publicly available resources on our website and our Youtube channel um that are really great for digging into these kinds of things. Um A great

[00:15:30.38] spk_0:
places website. The website

[00:16:00.74] spk_2:
is uh community I. T. Dot com. Um and the one of the other places that I know that matt has as our cybersecurity expert has a lot of people start is with the cybersecurity framework by nest the um and that website have a link to it. It’s N I S T dot gov two slash cybersecurity framework.

[00:16:03.65] spk_0:
Okay. And I S T dot gov slash cybersecurity framework. So N I S. T. Obviously is a government agency, National Institute

[00:16:11.61] spk_1:
of Standards

[00:16:12.97] spk_2:
and Technology

[00:16:24.44] spk_0:
Technology. Thank you. So. Okay. Um Alright, so there’s a couple of resources um including community I. T. Innovators. Anything else you’d like to share with that folks can rely on?

[00:16:47.44] spk_1:
I’d say that there’s no shortage of resources out there. Techsoup is also a great resource. So in addition to the donations that I think we’re all familiar with Techsoup also has a courses and training and so they have some free resources that I would encourage folks to check out there. Um, so I think, yeah, there’s, there’s no shortage of resources that are out there to help people learn. I think, you know, the big, the big challenges is really putting it into action.

[00:17:16.24] spk_0:
What about a little uh, can we give some uh, psychological support to these beleaguered folks? Now? I’m telling you, you have me feeling very badly for them? Um, what we’ll get back to the to the bog arts and boogie men, I promise. But but uh, let’s let’s take a little digression to how we can support these folks other than recommending things for them to be aware of just like how can how can we support them otherwise.

[00:17:25.34] spk_2:
So I think that, you know, I’m trying not to turn this into a pitch for joint for having an MSP come in and like do you own this stuff for you? Because

[00:17:33.45] spk_0:
what’s an MSP

[00:17:34.70] spk_2:
MSP is a managed service provider.

[00:17:38.13] spk_0:
Thank you. That’s what you are

[00:17:40.09] spk_2:
support, we have

[00:17:41.20] spk_0:
drug in jail on non profit radio So yeah, but I, I saved you from from any any lengthy sentence. Okay, a managed service provider. Okay,

[00:18:35.14] spk_2:
so that is that is one of the ways you know that you can get support. The other thing is you know, really leaning on the rest of the community Text suit is a great place to look for resources and you know, the entire community is a place to ask questions. Um There are also you know on linkedin and facebook and places like that. There are communities that you can reach out to for wanting to event looking for ideas, looking for recommendations. Those are all um possibilities. I uh definitely enjoy seeing how many you know how ready people are when people post on the N 10 forums like I need help with this and like there are definitely people jumping on,

[00:19:12.74] spk_0:
it’s an enormously supportive community. Yeah I I fear that even though I say it a lot because amy sample Ward is on the show very often. She’s our technology contributor. Um and so she’s often saying it to that intent is not only for technologists but I I still think people have that misconception. Um It can be for folks who are not even you know not even responsible for technology in their office but they’re just using it. You know you’re just using it in your non profit and In 2022 like who is not using technology? I don’t think we’re running everything by index cards even if you’re on an excel spreadsheet, you’re still using technology. So.

[00:19:22.64] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:22:28.84] spk_0:
Yeah. Well that yeah and line printers now you’re talking about when I went to college so be careful Sara it’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. You heard the four D. Ceo jug in last week. Talk about I. T. As a service for nonprofits. They know they’re in a service business. Their I. T. Infra in a box. The I. T. Buffet. If you will is structured around service, take what you need and what fits your budget, leave the rest behind. They know their work is to serve your I. T. Needs comes from the Ceo directly fourth dimension technologies tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper It’s time for Tony’s take two. This is my silver jubilee in planned giving and august is national make a will month next month. So let’s start talking about your planned giving program launch with wills wills. Why should you start your planned giving program with wills This week? three easy reasons. First they are the most popular planned gift by far expects 75-90% of your planned gifts forever to be the most simple planned gift. The gift by will. So it just makes sense to start with what’s gonna be At least three quarters of your gifts anyway Behind door number two there’s no donor education. Everybody knows what a will is. Everybody knows they need a will and everybody knows how will’s work. You don’t have to spend time and money educating donors explaining to them the concepts of life insurance as a planned gift or charitable gift annuities or remainder trusts. You’re sticking with the basics, something that everybody understands and Behind door number three there’s no staff education, everything I just said applies to your staff to everybody knows what wills are, everybody knows how they work and everybody knows that they need one. So you don’t have to train your staff on life insurance and gift annuities and charitable remainder trusts completely unnecessary. You’re starting with the basics and you may never ever decided to go further and that won’t matter. But the place to start is gifts by wills for those three reasons, three reasons for today in any case. And that is Tony’s take two. We’ve got just about a butt load more time for cybersecurity 101 with Matt Eshelman and Sara Wolf Matt.

[00:22:29.94] spk_2:
What

[00:22:30.17] spk_0:
else? Um, let’s go back to

[00:22:32.94] spk_2:
what,

[00:22:33.16] spk_0:
what we can the rockets and the boogie men that

[00:22:36.24] spk_1:
we want

[00:22:36.47] spk_0:
to help these folks look out for.

[00:23:01.04] spk_1:
Um, yeah, I would maybe also just kind of come back in terms of what’s good about investing in this training is that it’s, it’s good to see progress And I think that’s one of the benefits as Sarah mentioned the know before platform. It’s great. You know, spend a little bit of money to invest in a platform because then you can actually see the progress of, you know, how many people are taking and passing these little trainings and then know before does a little thing called test fishing and you can actually see the percentage change of how many people in your organization are kind of clicking on stuff that they shouldn’t. And so, you know, whenever you test, yes,

[00:23:34.04] spk_0:
it’s great test phishing emails to your enemies in the office, report them when they click, when they click after two days after the training and they click, you can, you can turn them in. Now organization advantage. Now there’s an advantage to being an accident that you’re no longer beleaguered. You’re empowered. Yes, send, send, send a, send a test phishing email to my boss who just turned me down for getting the day after christmas

[00:23:46.84] spk_1:
off. So

[00:23:47.30] spk_0:
yeah, so it’s great.

[00:24:31.44] spk_1:
You can, you know, you can see, you can see progress and so not all of cybersecurity is kind of like doom and gloom and you know, battening down the hatches, you know, against the onslaught. I think it can be fun. It can be engaging. You know, uh, you know, I think organizations that yeah, do elevate it. And it’s something that, you know, people can talk about and talk about openly as opposed to, you know, being being silenced and kind of feeling bad about themselves. If they, if they clicked on one of those messages, right? Like that’s not the approach you want to take. You want to take the approach of encouraging that learning because, you know, if you got caught by a suspicious message, uh, you know, it’s likely somebody else got that too. And so having this kind of culture of openness and engagement. Yeah, is really successful,

[00:24:37.54] spk_0:
right? I agree. Unless it’s your boss who turned you down for the day after christmas, that then it’s then it’s vindictive reported

[00:24:40.64] spk_1:
to the board.

[00:24:49.24] spk_0:
Yes. Oh, without a doubt. So All right, well let’s stay with you matt. What else? Um what else can we? Yeah,

[00:26:00.74] spk_1:
I think the other thing that we started to see more of would be kind of financial fraud or what’s kind of called in the, I think the official terminology wire fraud. So you know, it could be something as simple as those messages people get, you know, that look like they’re coming from the executive director saying, hey, I just need you to buy these gift cards. Call me real quick. I got something for you to do. You know, we’ve seen people get caught up by that, you know, even to more sophisticated cases where people are getting tricked by well crafted emails that say, oh, I need to update my payment information or hey, we’ve got a grantee and they had a problem with their bank account and here’s the new bank account information. So uh you know, that kind of falls into an area where it’s, it’s not just a technology control. You know, there isn’t some product that you can buy that’s gonna magically make that go away. Um but it’s a combination of having training, maybe having some good spam filtering tools in place, but then also having some policy and procedures so that you’re talking about that with your finance department, uh, so that you, you have good processes in place. So it’s payments aren’t made just by one person making a change, but there’s some some review and some betting maybe we need to call somebody. So I think again, it’s it’s not just technology solutions, but really that that kind of the people in process comes in into these equations as well.

[00:26:22.74] spk_0:
It seems like they’re getting more sophisticated. Uh, the little savvy er like uh your your account renewed for $399, you know, click here to see the invoice. You know, I don’t know, they just seem, they seem like they’re improving

[00:27:35.94] spk_1:
well. And I think you’ve identified a key understanding is that uh this is this is a cyber crime. This is a criminal enterprise, right? This is financially motivated. And the bad guys are doing it, you know, not just to kind of go in and wreak havoc on your network, but they’re doing it to make money. Uh and so I think that’s also helpful for organizations to keep in mind, right? You know, you can be the greatest nonprofit in the world and be, you know, have the most noble mission. No, they’re not attacking you because of your mission. They’re attacking you because you have money and, and you might get tricked into yeah, doing that $399 renewal or maybe you updated a payment information and and that was $25,000. And so uh, you know, the mission, you know, does not matter For those, uh, you know, cyber criminals who are financially motivated and it’s a lot easier to, to kind of trick somebody into giving you $400 than it is to, you know, write some super sophisticated virus that’s gonna go on to your computer and encrypt all your files. Then you’re gonna have to try to figure out how to pay them in Cryptocurrency. Yeah. It’s just, it’s a lot easier to try to trick people into giving you money than it is to write, write a new virus. Yeah.

[00:27:49.14] spk_0:
Okay. And then of course there is the community of nonprofits that, that are at risk because of their mission. And because you know, we’re living in a polarized time. It’s, it’s no longer

[00:27:54.27] spk_1:
just

[00:27:55.34] spk_0:
um, hot button issues, you know, like gun rights or, or abortion.

[00:28:00.21] spk_1:
I mean,

[00:28:06.74] spk_0:
it seems like a lot of missions could trigger someone to do something malicious, you know, technology wise. Uh,

[00:28:27.94] spk_1:
yeah, I would say so. We really see that, um, primarily for organizations that are in the space kind of like government think tanks, policy groups, you know, kind of good good government. Those tend to be the kind of attack attract the most attention. Um, and then I think organizations that work on, you know, human sexuality and uh, you know, family planning and abortion services like are in that category as well. Right,

[00:28:39.24] spk_0:
Sarah, let’s turn back to

[00:28:40.94] spk_1:
you, what,

[00:28:41.21] spk_0:
what, what more can you share with us?

[00:31:26.84] spk_2:
Well the one of the things that you know in in that theme of you know it is financial, these these this has become a business enterprise and it’s become you know not necessarily organized crime but it has become something that is a multibillion dollar business. And um That is something that we’ve definitely seen. We’ve seen an increase in the number of incidents that we end up responding to like from 2018 to 2021. The number of cybersecurity incidents is that that community I. T. Was able to track tripled. And so you know there isn’t a way to really fly under the radar anymore and you’re right, these people are getting smarter. It’s not just all Nigerian princes looking for for oil or gold or whatever. It’s you know, there have been times where you know, we’ve seen examples that have been caught in the tools or that did get through and did nearly create an issue. And I sat there and looked at the email chain and I was like, I can’t tell where this jumped in and then you like have to like really highlight and look in and look in the details and you go, oh, oh okay. Like there was just like a one letter change in somebody’s email address, you know, or and like that can you know if if you don’t have the training and you’re not necessarily aware of that stuff and then the redundancy that that matt was talking about um making sure that, you know, it isn’t just up that that all of the keys to the castle aren’t in one person’s hands. Uh so that you can, you know, make sure that there’s additional eyes to see, you know, what you missed or to make sure that this is the real deal is, you know, really important. Um you know what, it’s, it’s definitely a frame of mind thing. You don’t want to be constantly consumed with worry and you know, be paranoid about everything and because that just takes, we’ve got a whole lot of other things going on in the world right now that we don’t need to be panicking about cyber security all the time and just doing a few relatively low cost things can really help with peace of mind. And you know, it’s worth taking the time, you know, penny wise, pound foolish is one of the other sayings that comes around a lot, you know, just to make sure that, You know, you don’t end up having to deal with a $25,000 wire fraud

[00:31:30.01] spk_0:
issue sarah. What were some of the questions that you got from the accidental Tuckey folks who were watching,

[00:31:38.84] spk_2:
they

[00:31:38.91] spk_0:
were with you?

[00:32:14.44] spk_2:
Yeah, there were some questions on like where do we start, like how do I like uh we, we pointed people to the Nist Nist framework has a chess checklist um of things that you can start thinking about and looking at as you know, places to start. There were also um questions about how do I how do I make sure that I can, you know, convince my my edie about this and

[00:32:18.14] spk_0:
leadership by in

[00:33:06.84] spk_2:
leadership buy in and you know, we really for that we really said, you know, try if if if if you’re, if you’re leadership isn’t necessarily into it, you have to get like there’s no right or wrong way to go about things that can be top down, it can be bottom up but making sure that if it’s something where your leadership isn’t as invested, making sure you gather allies, you gather allies and you gather financially focused um data to back you up. You know, cyber security is getting more frequent and it is getting more costly to have to address issues after the fact. And so, you know, those were, you know, some of the really big questions and focuses

[00:33:34.34] spk_0:
you and you had mentioned allies early on the value of having having friends uh sympathetic to the to the cause all you know, making this case together to to the ceo or wherever it needs to go. Um All right, matt you want to leave us with some well matt, let me ask you any questions that you uh that that Sarah didn’t mention that you, that that hit you as particularly interesting important.

[00:34:43.34] spk_1:
Um I think it’s important for for folks to to realize that, you know, just because their data in the cloud doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s, it’s backed up or it’s protected in a way that they, that they think it is. And so I think, you know, nonprofits have done a really great job of getting their data in the cloud platforms. You know, there’s been a lot of great donation programs and discounts and so non profits, I think have done a really good job of technology adoption. Um, but what we see is that they haven’t been maybe as strict on kind of the policy and the governance and some of the other supporting, you know, processes. So we think it’s really important that you understand where your data is and understand how it’s protected and just make sure that that lines up with what you, you know, your organization expects, you know, is it okay if somebody downloads all of your organization data on their personal computer? Like is that an okay thing to have happened? Let’s make, let’s make sure that we talk about it and understand that, uh, you know, and I think the same thing goes again, you know, if somebody deletes a file today, do we need to be able to recover it, You know, a day from now, 30 days from now, a year from now. And so I think just having some of those baseline settings and kind of testing them is a really important step to take

[00:35:01.54] spk_0:
backup recovery. You know those are not necessarily covered by just being in the being in the cloud and how what’s the time to recover?

[00:35:22.44] spk_1:
Right. Yeah. So I think a lot of those, you know quote unquote old school you know security methods or techniques are still important even if you’ve got your date in the clouds again having that third party backup, having an offline copy. Uh those are all really important steps to take to make sure that your organization’s data is well protected.

[00:35:24.94] spk_2:
Okay.

[00:35:26.14] spk_1:
All

[00:35:29.04] spk_0:
right. Why don’t we leave it there then? I feel like we’ve covered this.

[00:35:31.14] spk_2:
I

[00:35:31.51] spk_1:
think we’ve got the foundational element. Is

[00:35:41.34] spk_0:
there anything alright, is there anything on your mind just like oh wait I gotta get this in. Is there anybody, I

[00:35:41.67] spk_1:
mean I’ll put in a plug for multi factor authentication again I think it’s worth saying at least a couple more times

[00:35:46.63] spk_0:
because

[00:35:47.47] spk_1:
it’s the it’s the most important step that that that many organizations can take.

[00:35:54.74] spk_0:
Okay Sarah parting thought

[00:36:16.33] spk_2:
just gonna emphasize what matt said about the managed backup just now um you know it’s really important to know your settings and to discuss them because you know a lot of times data loss is actually accidental and so if you have a way to get it back that can save you a whole lot of heartache and headache.

[00:36:20.38] spk_0:
Okay we want to avoid

[00:36:22.00] spk_1:
both. Thank

[00:36:34.53] spk_0:
you that’s Sara Wolf sales manager at community I. T. Innovators and also matt Eshelman Chief technology officer at community I. T. Innovators. Sarah matt, thank you both very much.

[00:36:37.33] spk_2:
Thank you so much.

[00:36:38.26] spk_1:
Thanks tony it’s good to get to talk to you.

[00:36:39.97] spk_0:
All right, pleasure and thank you for being

[00:36:42.51] spk_1:
with

[00:38:02.03] spk_0:
nonprofit radio coverage of 22 N. T C. The 2022 nonprofit technology conference. I’m glad you’re with us next week tech policies to reduce toxic productivity. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. This is # 601 by the way, I don’t know if you’re counting. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by 4th dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go on to mention deeper. Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez, marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein yeah thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for July 18, 2022: 600th Show!

 

Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Amy Sample Ward, Gene Takagi, Peter Panepento, & Jagannathan Narayanan: 600th Show!

For this auspicious occasion, we have august personages. My co-host is Claire Meyerhoff. We’ve got live music from Scott Stein. Our contributors, Amy Sample Ward and Gene Takagi are here. Our sponsors, Turn Two Communications and Fourth Dimension Technologies will be dropping in. And we’ll surprise a bunch of folks, The Delightful Dozen. It’s fun and music and celebration. And gratitude.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:10.14] spk_0:
Yeah, hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:12.67] spk_1:
non profit

[00:00:13.43] spk_0:
radio big

[00:00:15.13] spk_1:
non profit

[00:00:15.80] spk_2:
ideas for the

[00:00:17.24] spk_1:
Other 95

[00:00:19.94] spk_0:
on

[00:00:20.13] spk_1:
the aptly named host

[00:00:21.94] spk_0:
of

[00:00:22.18] spk_1:
your favorite abdominal

[00:00:24.94] spk_0:
podcast, you

[00:00:25.66] spk_1:
hear the live

[00:00:26.11] spk_0:
music that can

[00:00:27.55] spk_1:
only mean one

[00:00:28.49] spk_0:
thing,

[00:00:31.04] spk_1:
It’s our 600th show and 12th Jubilee

[00:00:34.99] spk_0:
who

[00:00:41.34] spk_1:
you have a listener of the week Tricia Madrid baker when someone posted on an N 10 discussion, what’s your favorite non profit podcast Tricia was quick on the keyboard and posted the first answer. tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:52.46] spk_3:
radio

[00:01:14.34] spk_1:
and her post got the most likes of any of those second rate suggestions that came after. Uh not that it’s a competition but non profit radio did get the most likes, I have to say. And by the way, for those two past guests who stabbed us in the back by naming second rate podcasts, uh you’re banished, you’ll not be back

[00:01:16.74] spk_3:
but

[00:01:32.54] spk_1:
Tricia Madrid baker from a plastic anemia and Mds International Foundation. Thank you. Tricia for loving non profit radio as your favorite podcast for nonprofits, congratulations you are our listener of the week On the 600th show

[00:01:35.34] spk_4:
And also everybody’s answers in the N- 10 forums are all wonderful and appreciated. Tony is being hyperbolic, just making sure people know

[00:01:44.76] spk_0:
that I

[00:02:25.94] spk_1:
should hope they realize that after, after a couple of beats after a couple of beats So for this 600 show or specific occasion we have August personages my Co host is claire Meyerhoff we’ve got live music from scott stein our contributors, Amy sample Ward, who you just heard defending all the second rate podcasts and Gene Takagi are here, our sponsors turn to communications and fourth dimension technologies will be dropping in and we’ll be surprising a bunch of folks, it’s fun, it’s music, it’s celebration and gratitude. So on Tony’s take two, I’m gonna be saying thank you.

[00:02:44.44] spk_3:
We are sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot co visit them at turn hyphen T W O dot C O. We’re also sponsored by fourth dimension technologies I T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits visit tony dot M a slash four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[00:02:58.84] spk_1:
Oh that mellifluous voice. It can only be Claire Meyerhoff. Welcome Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:03:04.24] spk_3:
Hi tony I love doing your spots. I really do because I used to do spots back in the day when I worked in radio and I don’t do them anymore. So when I get one in front of me, I’m just like, oh I get to read a commercial,

[00:03:22.04] spk_1:
I’m very glad I’m glad you’re with us. She is of course non profit radio as creative Producer, declares the president of the planned giving agency request marketing and philanthropy. Communications and the company is at PG agency dot com. So glad to have you. Creative producer. Thanks,

[00:03:43.44] spk_3:
Thank you Tony, I can’t believe this is your 600th show you are the most prolific and amazing podcaster in the history of podcasts. AmY’s writing that down, she’s gonna put that

[00:03:47.71] spk_1:
it’s

[00:04:20.44] spk_3:
true, my world is radio Right, so, so after radio people started doing podcast. So I’ve been paying attention to podcasts over the years, like I read articles about it and stuff and I see how people try to do podcasts and they fail because they get a committee or something like that and they just can’t even do one podcast And you have done 600, you have done two a week For once a week, I’m sorry, once a week, four Every week of the year 50 a year to offer vacation times 12, 600. It’s, it’s actually mind blowing. It blows my mind. I’m no good at math, but I can do this math. And that math adds up to podcast success.

[00:04:29.09] spk_1:
Thank you. Claire R&R 13,000 plus listeners each week. So thank

[00:04:33.65] spk_3:
you. It’s amazing.

[00:04:44.34] spk_1:
It feels terrific. I have to do one a week. Otherwise I’d be undisciplined. We’d be at like show, I don’t know, 226 or something after 12 years, but one a week, it keeps me disciplined. Let’s bring in Scott Stein Scott Welcome. Glad to have you.

[00:04:53.79] spk_5:
Thank you. Great to be here.

[00:05:13.94] spk_1:
Always a pleasure to have you on the, on the milestone show scott is the composer of our theme song, cheap red wine, which we’ll be hearing later. He’s a Brooklyn, new york based pianist, songwriter, arranger, conductor and music director. He’s got a new album coming out imminently. He’s got a new baby that just happened very recently. And you can find all this at scott stein music dot com scott. So glad to have you.

[00:05:33.24] spk_5:
Oh well, always glad to be here. It it feels like the milestone. It’s like it’s a certain type of summer. It’s a certain time of the summer. It’s like, all right, it’s time to do tony show again. Look forward to it every year.

[00:05:34.66] spk_1:
Every july. Thank you. So, tell us about the new baby. I thought I thought the new album was big news until I learned about the new

[00:05:41.29] spk_5:
baby album

[00:05:42.63] spk_1:
is like, uh, you know, the music is important to tell us about the new baby.

[00:06:21.64] spk_5:
Yeah, I won’t try to compare the two. Uh, so we have a little girl named Aviva, she was born about six weeks ago and she’s just, she’s beautiful and she’s growing and she’s just starting to give us smiles and it’s just, it’s awesome. She’s really wonderful. You might, she’s in the other room so you might occasionally hear her. But yeah, it’s, it’s wonderful. And her big brother is we have a three year old named Eli and he’s been awesome and he’s a great big brother. And it’s just, it’s fun. We’re not sleeping a whole lot. That’s the only thing, but that’s sort of to be expected. So it’s all good

[00:06:27.56] spk_4:
baby, like the piano.

[00:06:29.44] spk_5:
Yeah, actually, right before, right before I came on and I had to do a couple of vocal warm ups just to get ready. So I had her in my lap and was just singing and playing and probably here right now

[00:06:39.91] spk_1:
we can hear her. That’s okay. non profit radio we’re family embracing, not just family

[00:06:44.74] spk_5:
friendly but yeah,

[00:06:46.01] spk_1:
anybody could be family friendly. We’re family embracing and pets to

[00:06:56.74] spk_5:
Indeed it was going to say the other day I was home just practicing piano, my wife was holding her and she was asleep and she didn’t wake up until I started, sorry until I took a break from practicing as soon as I started playing again, it lulled her back to sleep. So

[00:07:02.63] spk_1:
magnificent. Alright, alright. And new album coming

[00:07:38.04] spk_5:
up. Yeah, new record is called Uphill. It’s going to be released next month. That’s august the first single which I’m gonna do later in the show is going to be coming out in about two weeks and we’re gonna do a record release show here in Brooklyn where I live through a, an organization called operation gig which sponsors a bunch of outdoor shows throughout the Ditmas Park and Prospect Park south neighborhoods and so we’re part of that. We’re really excited. That’s august 21st and yes, it’s I’m really excited for people to hear this music. It’s, we’ve been working hard at it and it’s finally ready.

[00:07:58.34] spk_1:
Outstanding. Congratulations, mazel tov on uh, on Aviva And the album Uphill all that info is at scott stein music dot com. Let’s bring in Amy Amy and jean Amy our technology and social media. Hello Hello indeed.

[00:08:01.25] spk_4:
Our

[00:08:06.34] spk_1:
technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 where that auspicious podcast poll was taken their most

[00:08:11.16] spk_4:
special, scientifically valid, you know, statistically valid survey of best podcast in the online forum.

[00:08:18.84] spk_1:
Yeah, well, non profit radio is number one. So obviously that’s all

[00:08:21.61] spk_4:
true. That

[00:08:32.84] spk_1:
is that is all true. Uh their most recent co authored book is the tech that comes next and we have to get you on the show to talk about that. It’s been it’s been your lackluster hosts. Uh Remission.

[00:08:34.26] spk_4:
Yeah. You said we couldn’t be on until you read it. So I guess tony this is you admitting you have not yet read the book.

[00:08:41.64] spk_1:
And they’re also at the sample. They’re also at Amy sample ward dot org And at Amy R. S

[00:08:47.72] spk_5:
Ward

[00:09:12.54] spk_1:
and Gene Takagi are legal contributor, Managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco and it’s that wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com. He’s also a part time lecturer at Columbia University. You’ll find his firm at neo law group dot com and he’s at g Tac glad to have you gene wonderful to be

[00:09:13.44] spk_6:
Here. Tony and congrats, that’s an amazing uh feet 600 podcasts and I’ll second clear and say yeah, number one on my list.

[00:09:24.84] spk_1:
Thank you very much. Thank you and Tricia Madrid baker to our our listener of the week. Number one for her. So look at all the number ones we’ve got

[00:09:32.84] spk_6:
just to see if I can get over the week one day as

[00:09:36.09] spk_1:
well,

[00:09:36.56] spk_0:
jean

[00:09:39.93] spk_1:
your listener of the month. You’re on your contributor of the month, listener of the month. Come on. I

[00:09:45.13] spk_3:
mean

[00:09:46.24] spk_1:
your your bona fide, you’re way beyond bona fide.

[00:09:49.24] spk_6:
I’ve been on 13 years. I’ve never been listening for the week. So

[00:09:52.36] spk_4:
jean is hoping you have one of those hallway, you know, things with the little engraved gene really wants one to say 11 week. He was the listener of the week.

[00:10:09.14] spk_1:
Okay, I see the listener of the wall. The wall, but I need to install in my home in my background. Okay.

[00:10:11.05] spk_3:
That’s a little Polaroid picture of jean. Like when I worked at Roy Rogers in high school, they had ranch hand of the month and you had your little Polaroid and your thing and I never became ranch hand of the month.

[00:10:20.14] spk_6:
That’s exactly what I want,

[00:10:27.14] spk_1:
Claire. Hey scott.

[00:10:28.37] spk_3:
We’d we’d

[00:10:31.04] spk_1:
love to have some music. What do you think you do a first do a first song for us from? This is gonna be from Uphill, the new album.

[00:10:51.84] spk_5:
Yeah, this is gonna be the single. Um full disclosure. I think I may have played one or two of the songs that you’re about to hear on the podcast before. So hopefully your audience is okay with a repeat performance. Um I can’t remember if I did this one or not, to be honest. But this is gonna be the single. It’s gonna be out in a couple weeks. It’s called on my way. And sexually the 1st, 1st tune on the record

[00:11:01.64] spk_1:
on my way.

[00:11:07.14] spk_5:
Mm

[00:11:09.84] spk_0:
mhm.

[00:11:40.14] spk_2:
I’m on my way. I could still find my way out of the ordinary. Back into the free. Gonna take some of that comfort, slip out of the step all the way outside my back to push me through the soul.

[00:11:50.04] spk_0:
Okay,

[00:12:15.04] spk_2:
I’m on my way through the storm and the swell as for the destination. It’s too early to tell there in a while and to sell this ain’t a river or trust. Ain’t no grow or treating this like baby. We only do what we must and I cannot stem the time. I can only stand in one

[00:12:18.70] spk_0:
and

[00:12:18.85] spk_2:
then I grab a hold so we won’t put

[00:12:21.62] spk_0:
me under.

[00:12:45.84] spk_2:
I’m breathing different And now we’ve got a swagger in my stride. I’m walking through new Orleans, the mighty river at my side but knew all the smells the scars now in the shaping its form with just the, the rhetoric reminds our of memories of the storm.

[00:13:02.44] spk_0:
Mhm Yes.

[00:13:03.84] spk_2:
Amen.

[00:13:31.04] spk_0:
Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah, gonna take all

[00:13:33.94] spk_2:
that. I take all that. I was

[00:13:36.31] spk_0:
trying to pull

[00:13:39.34] spk_2:
myself together. The right kind of

[00:13:40.43] spk_0:
Barnes,

[00:13:47.84] spk_2:
take all of my love, take all of my sins. Ain’t no use trying to pass up the mess that I

[00:13:50.82] spk_0:
feel,

[00:13:55.34] spk_2:
but I will be back. I will be better be better than I was

[00:14:30.44] spk_0:
the day before. Mhm. Mhm Yeah, beautiful scott.

[00:14:34.64] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Swagger in my stride.

[00:14:36.45] spk_5:
That’s terrific.

[00:15:05.64] spk_1:
Alright, alright. We’ve got more music coming from uh from scott’s gonna play a couple more tunes for us, including of course, the the ultimate theme, the theme song, cheap red wine coming up, coming up later to thank you scott. Cool. So clara like so claire a

[00:15:07.17] spk_3:
mute myself.

[00:15:14.64] spk_1:
Thank you for your thoughtful, thoughtful. But for words about the 600th show,

[00:15:57.24] spk_3:
The 600 show is amazing and you’ve had so many guests on over the years and I thought that I would do something in honor of this jubilee and create something called the delightful dozen for your dozen years Now. I haven’t now I have an official unofficial theme song. The delightful doesn’t are kind of just, you know, 12 people that I asked Tony to, to think of who were really truly delightful, dynamic, wonderful guests. And we wanted to highlight them on this 12th jubilee. And I’m really digging the word jubilee. So delightful dozen,

[00:15:59.69] spk_1:
anybody can

[00:16:03.34] spk_3:
have an anniversary, anybody but a jubilee. And you know, the Queen, they just stole that from you over and you in England

[00:16:08.22] spk_1:
Queen. Yeah, she she counts to.

[00:16:11.34] spk_3:
She borrowed your idea. So yeah, we

[00:16:14.59] spk_1:
don’t have a podcast. Queen doesn’t have a podcast.

[00:16:16.56] spk_3:
No, not that we know of

[00:16:18.34] spk_1:
she Exactly, there’s her problem. She’s got no marketing,

[00:16:51.14] spk_3:
no market so so well, well well talk about these delightful people over the course of the show. So here are our first three of the delightful dozen. So this is the first quarter of the delightful dozen. And our first delightful dozen designate is Cheryl McCormick who is the Ceo of the Athens Area Humane Society and she is a delightful dozen member, our inaugural member and tony Why did Cheryl make the delightful dozen?

[00:17:39.14] spk_1:
Cheryl McCormick has been a fan of nonprofit radio for many, many years in the early years she used to send me messages on twitter and facebook commenting on the show years ago she did a blog post where she listed um you know, recommended podcasts, She put non profit radio at the top of her list and she was the first blogger to do that, you know, uh gratefully, thankfully, you know the show has been on many lists through the years, but she was the first person to do that. Um, so you know just long term, long term loyal fan. Um I have my plan giving accelerator and she was the first person to join the first class.

[00:17:45.94] spk_5:
She

[00:18:08.04] spk_1:
was the first member of the first class of plan giving accelerator. I was grateful for that was very uh significant, you know moving that that she believed in what the course was gonna be about. I haven’t done one yet. And the course has turned out very, very well but so she’s been a longtime fan and uh that’s why I’m grateful to Cheryl McCormick and that’s why she belongs in the delightful dozen.

[00:18:38.74] spk_3:
Thank you Cheryl for being part of our delightful dozen here tony-martignetti non profit radio So the next member being inaugurated or whatever and welcomed into the class of the delightful dozen. We have a woman named Barbara Newhouse and Barbara is the current Ceo of the southeast texas food bank which is an amazing organization and so important these days especially but Barbara when she was on the show, she was the Ceo of the A. L. S association and she was involved in an extremely high profile nonprofit fundraising activity that goes down in history. tony tell us what that was.

[00:18:56.44] spk_1:
That was the ice bucket challenge and I was so excited to get her on the show. The ice bucket challenge was during the summer of 2014. So we’re going back a few years but its legendary

[00:19:03.61] spk_4:
years ago already.

[00:19:05.39] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:19:06.37] spk_4:
what is time talking

[00:19:08.99] spk_3:
about it? People are still talking about it, they’re like how can we do something like the ice bucket challenge clients that like

[00:19:14.72] spk_1:
it was organic,

[00:19:16.06] spk_3:
it’s lightning in a bottle

[00:20:42.54] spk_1:
right. And that was, that was the summer of 2014, it wrapped up right around labor day of 2014 and then on the october 6th show we got Barbara Newhouse the Ceo of the A. L. S. Society, which was the The beneficiary of 120 850 million. The numbers seem to vary a little bit, but a ton of money came in over 68 weeks. They were overwhelmed and we got to talk to Barbara Newhouse, the Ceo about how it originated. And you know, it was it was purely organic. It came from three three three Service 3 folks with with A. L. S. In their family or or they themselves are patients and it was just purely organic. Uh and then what they were going to do with the money and how they were going to decide what to do with the money. And did that show that october Uh for 2014 show at the Chronicle of Philanthropy Offices. Um So we shared the interview with them, but they let me do it on the podcast and then they hosted it on their site and it was just very, very much upbeat uh moment for nonprofit radio to get Barbara Newhouse, just a couple of weeks after this all had this all had broken and to do it in the Chronicle of philanthropy Office was terrific. Yes.

[00:20:46.04] spk_3:
So Barbara Newhouse, thank you for letting us designate you one of the delightful dozen of tony-martignetti

[00:20:52.57] spk_1:
we’ll

[00:20:52.80] spk_3:
send you a plaque or something. I don’t know, maybe

[00:20:54.99] spk_1:
not

[00:21:03.24] spk_3:
let’s not get carried away. You might get like a sticker. Okay, so the third person we’re going to talk about who we’re going to um bring into our cone of silence or whatever is not a cone of silence of

[00:21:11.74] spk_1:
it’s

[00:21:13.35] spk_3:
a basket of fabulousness. I don’t know what it is, but it’s called the delightful dozen and it’s Tony’s delightful dozen people. And so the third one we’re going to bring in is the editor of the Chronicle of philanthropy, Stacy palmer. So tony tell us why is Stacy a member of the delightful dozen?

[00:22:24.74] spk_1:
Well, because she was amenable to what I just talked about the that sharing of that interview in 2014. She’s been a guest on the show a bunch of times, most recently, just a couple of weeks ago, I think like, 33 weeks ago. because the Chronicle of philanthropy is transitioning to nonprofit status, which is enormous. Going from privately held to from privately held. They’re owned by the Chronicle of Higher Education. Now they’re going from privately held to nonprofit status. They have not gotten their approval from the I. R. S. Yet. But they have Made their 1023 application. So that’s huge and she’s been on the show a couple of other times. And then in addition to that, uh she gave me an opportunity years ago to host for the Chronicle. The another podcast uh fundraising fundamentals.

[00:22:27.34] spk_5:
And

[00:22:27.57] spk_1:
that was that was different. That was strictly fundraising

[00:22:30.82] spk_3:
short

[00:22:37.64] spk_1:
Form, nothing more than 12 minutes. Most of the interviews were like 10, 8, 10 minutes uh

[00:22:38.27] spk_3:
quick 12,

[00:22:38.96] spk_1:
three. What can we learn? And I did that for four or 4.5 years with the

[00:22:43.75] spk_3:
Chronicle

[00:22:45.04] spk_1:
hosting that uh, for them. And so I’m grateful to Stacy Palmer and that’s why she belongs in the delightful dozen. So there you go.

[00:22:53.83] spk_3:
And that is the first three members of our class of the 2022 Tony-Martignetti delightful dozen.

[00:23:01.44] spk_1:
And

[00:23:02.56] spk_3:
we’ll have more later. Stay tuned.

[00:23:12.24] spk_1:
We absolutely will. And it’s my pleasure to bring in one of our, one of our sponsors. Peter Pan a

[00:23:15.94] spk_0:
pinto. Good

[00:23:16.71] spk_7:
day everyone. How are you?

[00:23:20.14] spk_1:
Hello Peter.

[00:23:20.91] spk_3:
Hi Peter.

[00:23:27.64] spk_1:
We were just talking about fundraising fundamentals on the Chronicle of philanthropy and uh, and how Stacy palmer was important to that and uh, and you were to Peter in in making that happen.

[00:23:33.47] spk_7:
Yeah, that was our first joint effort way back in the day. tony when we worked on that.

[00:24:05.54] spk_1:
Indeed, indeed. Um, so I invited Peter to come of course because turned to communications of which he is one of the partners is a sponsor of nonprofit radio has been for several years and Peter, you know, I’m grateful. I’m grateful for the support that that you and your partner scott give to the nonprofit radio So thank you. I want to have you on to say thank you for your many years, sponsorship.

[00:24:08.42] spk_7:
Thank you were big supporters of the work you do and

[00:24:13.64] spk_1:
past

[00:24:27.44] spk_7:
building you provide to the non community through this program and through so much of the other work you do to tony uh, you really do a really important service grazers and nonprofit Urz especially those that smaller organizations that don’t have access to a lot of the resources that a lot of us do.

[00:24:34.64] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you. Peter. Your, your audio is breaking up a little bit. So I’m gonna suggest you turn off your video. I’m

[00:24:40.76] spk_7:
gonna turn my video off and as I do that, I’m going to move to a better location. Okay.

[00:24:56.44] spk_1:
Because I don’t want you to be breaking up as you as you remind folks, uh, as I do each week, but now we’re gonna hear it from one of the partners. I’m just a lackluster host of the number one podcast, but still black Western. Um, so as you, you know, remind folks what, what turned to communications is all about for nonprofits. Please

[00:25:36.44] spk_7:
Sure. We are a full service communications and pr agency that specializes in working with non profits and foundations. Uh, it started from my work prior to going into consulting as a journalist where I spent a number of years at the Chronicle philanthropy, really getting to know the field. Uh, and starting to really understand the best practices and communications and pr and have taken the lessons we’ve learned there along with the the years that we’ve now been working with um nonprofits and thought leaders and uh, and foundations across the sector and apply it to the work we do today.

[00:25:43.34] spk_1:
You do a lot of work with community foundations, don’t you?

[00:26:18.94] spk_7:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s a really central part of our business. We um, we provide support to a group called the Community Foundation awareness Initiative, which is a coalition of about 100 and 50 community foundations that we provide strategic support to. And we’ve really built a community of practice among communicators at community foundations where we bring them together. We um, we provide them with resources and training and we provide a forum for um communications professionals to talk to each other and learn from each other. So that has been a really interesting direction of our work and it helps inform a lot of what we do. Now,

[00:26:42.94] spk_1:
you’ve had some valuable recommendations to in in crises for local community foundations. That’s I’ve found that very helpful. After the, you’ve all day shooting in texas, I was very happy to send out. You recommended the san Antonio area Community Foundation. That’s right, yeah. We

[00:27:04.34] spk_7:
really, we really leverage that network and try to find ways to leverage our own network to communicate about how folks can help in in response to disasters, but also how they can support each other and and and help and grow the field in a larger way. And I really appreciate when when folks with platforms like you see the work that we’re doing and the work that these organizations are doing and help amplify that message. That’s that’s the best possible outcome.

[00:27:23.64] spk_1:
Oh, it was, it was a pleasure. And uh, peter I want to thank you again for, for the turn to support of non profit radio for your kind words. Thanks very much for joining, joining today. We really appreciate it.

[00:27:25.40] spk_7:
Thank you so much. Great to see you all.

[00:27:32.14] spk_3:
Wonderful, Great guy,

[00:28:07.44] spk_1:
very grateful. Yes. Um, and which leads me to, uh, more, uh, More formal expression of gratitude and it’s time for Tony’s take two and I have to say thank you, thank you. Um, it’s hard to identify, you know, who you think first, I guess I guess listeners, you know, if it wasn’t for 13,000 listeners a week in in small and mid size shops, which are the, the ones that we all here today and all the guests that I’ve had through the years. I want to support? You know, um, I knew I was gonna get misty,

[00:28:12.32] spk_3:
you

[00:28:42.84] spk_1:
know, I, I channel II channel our listeners can be a heart. I channel our listeners. You know, what do I think you would ask if you were in the conversation, What do I think is most valuable to you to know to take away from this guest, whether it’s uh, you know, discussion points for, for your, your, your team or for your ceo or for your board to act on. I get a lot of comments, you know, I brought this to my board for discussion and, you know, in that that’s, uh, to me that’s a Grand Slam. Uh, I’m not capable of going any further. That’s Grand Slam is all I know about football. I’m not very good at sports. So,

[00:28:53.02] spk_0:
uh,

[00:29:35.54] spk_1:
but you know, I’m channeling the listeners. I’m grateful to all of you folks who have listened and and do listen. And of course, everybody who supports the show. Everybody here today Claire scott, Amy jean. Um, you know, our our longtime longtime contributors, I’ve got more to say about Gene and Amy later on, so, uh, but grateful at this point. Just a lot of things going out, a lot of gratitude to our listeners, to everybody who supports the show and who has supported, you know, through Through 12 years. You know, I’m Ready to do another 12. We’re not we’re not stopping

[00:30:51.84] spk_4:
tony Can I add like a tiny Sprinkle of love on top of your big love sunday for your listeners. I’m trying to come up with a metaphor there. Um, you know, I we, at n 10, of course, like a whole community of people learning about technology, but so obviously it’s a biased view, but I don’t care and don’t pretend that it’s not biased, but there’s so many people and so many institutions that those people are in, and then so many other factors like The perception or the positioning with funders or whatever else that constantly tells folks in our sector, you’re supposed to already be the expert and like heaven forbid you admit you’re not, you know, so for 13,000 people to say actually I’m gonna learn something by listening to this show for 12 years, right? Like I just want folks to really appreciate in themselves that they are not buying into all of that noise that like they already know everything there already the expert. Like there’s nothing more to learn. Like there’s so much more to learn and we actually do better when we learn together in conversation or in practice. And I appreciate that for 12 years you’ve created space for that learning to happen. But also that 13,000 people were like, yeah, I have more to learn. You know, that’s really important for our sector.

[00:31:13.64] spk_1:
Thank you amy. Thank you. I’m gonna let him have the last word. That is Tony’s take that is Tony’s take two scott stein’s got some more music for us.

[00:31:53.34] spk_5:
Yeah, I do. Um I thought I would do the title track from the new record. So this is the song is called Uphill and it’s simply about kind of climbing out from from something and getting uphill and trying to trying to stay up there, which feels like kind of where we’re all at right now, we’re particularly with the pandemic and everything else that’s happening and so um like, like a lot of work, the song takes on multiple meanings or it takes on different meanings, you know, for for different people. So anyway, that’s this one.

[00:32:04.84] spk_0:
Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:32:12.64] spk_2:
Lying

[00:32:13.20] spk_0:
here have weighed the while, nothing in the

[00:32:16.84] spk_2:
attack. It’s only the caffeine in my system. I think another night, another week, another

[00:32:23.64] spk_0:
month

[00:32:25.65] spk_2:
we go up

[00:32:29.94] spk_0:
again and roll

[00:32:32.62] spk_2:
like a wave a button up over the

[00:32:34.97] spk_0:
shore, sleep

[00:32:36.69] spk_2:
like a letter. Someone slid under the door. I know better days are coming though. I couldn’t tell you all

[00:32:43.67] spk_0:
that

[00:32:49.24] spk_2:
again. I will go up

[00:32:56.24] spk_0:
again. Years

[00:32:59.11] spk_2:
of living in my bows. It’s carved into my

[00:33:02.05] spk_0:
face

[00:33:06.14] spk_2:
if there is itself in my room and takes up all the space.

[00:33:32.44] spk_0:
Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Mhm. Fighting off

[00:33:33.29] spk_2:
the DM It’s like a boxer in the

[00:33:35.74] spk_0:
ring. I hear the

[00:33:37.26] spk_2:
interest in my corner, but I cannot see a thing. I’ll take it one day at a time I’m taking it on the chin

[00:33:45.46] spk_0:
and I will go

[00:33:49.94] spk_2:
up trying to catch a train. That’s always

[00:33:54.21] spk_0:
the first step ahead sweating

[00:34:09.04] spk_2:
And up straight and then I’ll fall back into bed and then wake up from the dream and take a breath and count to 10. I will go up

[00:34:11.34] spk_0:
again,

[00:34:26.34] spk_2:
lie here forgiveness in your voice as a reason. Life sounded like music that only you and

[00:34:56.74] spk_0:
Mhm and open to the grief from open to the sorrow

[00:35:01.09] spk_2:
and opened up the chairs that I’m gonna stumble down tomorrow, even if nobody knows when the rain will

[00:35:09.15] spk_0:
be, I will

[00:35:13.74] spk_2:
again, ready for the downpour and let it overflow my

[00:35:16.81] spk_0:
cup. I’ll be

[00:35:18.13] spk_2:
ready for the sunshine for whenever it shows up. I know better days are coming though. I don’t know when,

[00:35:26.48] spk_0:
but

[00:35:34.64] spk_2:
I will go up again. I will go up will again. I will go

[00:35:54.94] spk_1:
thank you scott. Uphill title cut the album coming up next month, August 22, is that

[00:35:59.80] spk_5:
21st

[00:36:05.13] spk_1:
August 21? I gave you an extra day. Well you have an extra day just in case one more day after a year makes a difference.

[00:36:07.09] spk_5:
Yeah, well the show will be the 21st and uh I might I might put it online a few days before that. But next month. So for sure,

[00:36:47.93] spk_1:
Uphill the album coming August 21, congratulations. Thank you. Thanks a lot Scott. I had the opportunity to have a chat with our our other sponsor of the Ceo jug in at fourth dimension Technologies. They’re based in India. So they’re all sleeping right now while we are chatting here pleasantly. So I met jargon in new york city and I’m gonna play that that that that chat uh right now, here it is.

[00:36:54.23] spk_8:
I’m

[00:36:54.58] spk_1:
with jug in the Ceo of fourth dimension technologies. We all know it as four D. Of course.

[00:37:01.53] spk_8:
Um

[00:37:03.23] spk_1:
we couldn’t arrange to talk on the

[00:37:06.68] spk_8:
Uh at the six

[00:37:07.69] spk_1:
10th show with him live

[00:37:09.46] spk_8:
because he’s

[00:37:10.45] spk_1:
a couple hours

[00:37:12.33] spk_8:
away so

[00:37:13.02] spk_1:
we’re meeting in Moynihan train hall in new york city so you may hear some train announcements in the

[00:37:17.98] spk_8:
background.

[00:37:19.13] spk_1:
Um that’s where he and I are talking and joking, welcome to non profit radio 600 show and thank you so much for being a

[00:37:35.53] spk_8:
sponsor. Thank you tony and thank you for having us as a sponsor. It’s wonderful to be here and excellent to meet meet in person after almost two years.

[00:37:38.57] spk_1:
Yeah it’s a pleasure,

[00:37:40.98] spk_8:
absolute pleasure.

[00:37:41.87] spk_1:
So uh this is a chance for you to acquaint our listeners

[00:37:47.97] spk_0:
with four

[00:37:50.08] spk_1:
D. And with I. T. Info in a

[00:37:51.75] spk_8:
box. So folks

[00:37:55.03] spk_1:
have been hearing me talk about the the I. T. In. For in a box

[00:37:56.87] spk_8:
but we’ll

[00:37:57.87] spk_1:
get there. But first you know just acquaint us with with four D. From the ceo

[00:38:45.02] spk_8:
perspective. So let me tell you what, I think that it’s got a long history close to 30 plus years old. That’s pretty long and being in the I. T. Infrastructure space all through when I mean the infra basically we’re talking about everything that involves with hardware which is like compute storage network, the list is long, you have backup, you have disaster recovery business continuity, you have the operating systems, you have the security aspects of it. So we pretty much covered the entire gamut of I. T. Infrastructure and without 30 years of experience I think we can claim to have fairly reasonable good knowledge on all these pillars and

[00:38:45.34] spk_1:
these are all aspects of the I. T. Infra in a

[00:38:48.71] spk_8:
box that

[00:38:50.28] spk_1:
that folks can choose

[00:39:13.62] spk_8:
From absolutely what we do, what we’ve done is we’ve actually boxed are 30 years experience in the industry to provide affordable solutions for nonprofits. Okay. So what we are essentially trying to provide nonprofits is being able to have the entire idea of theirs in one single interface. Okay. They can of course they have the option of picking and choosing what they want but all of this available as a single and also as a service, which means they pay for it as the use, that’s what we’re trying to send to them.

[00:39:28.72] spk_1:
You’re sensitive to the fact that non profits are operating on,

[00:39:30.82] spk_8:
you know,

[00:39:31.17] spk_1:
often small

[00:40:00.91] spk_8:
budgets. 100%. No question about it. We understand we work with nonprofits, we understand how tight budgeted they are. We’ve also seen how nonprofits have evolved with time there was a time there, they were focusing only on things like getting the donation and executing projects but today time has come where technology has become very crucial for not just survival but for their growth as well. Okay, so we feel that technology is going forward is going to play a very major part function for any organization, let alone non profit everybody, there’s

[00:40:06.07] spk_1:
no more index

[00:40:06.67] spk_8:
cards, everybody’s

[00:40:08.31] spk_1:
every

[00:40:08.66] spk_8:
person,

[00:40:09.91] spk_1:
not even not only the I. T.

[00:40:11.10] spk_8:
Director, I mean

[00:40:12.02] spk_1:
everyone of course is using technology in their work

[00:40:37.81] spk_8:
and we understand the need for, especially for nonprofits to work with tight budgets. So which is why when we start looking at it, we’ve kind of made it a very cost effective model for them. I’m sure they will see the cost effectiveness in the whole process, which we also feel is probably our way of giving back in some sense in some sense, okay. Because we’re not going to be looking at purely market rates in this model, but we think there is an option to do that. But we also want to make it easy, elegant and simple for them to use, that’s the idea

[00:40:44.94] spk_1:
and there is a large U. S. Nonprofit you’re working with

[00:41:46.41] spk_8:
now. Oh yes, we do. That’s, that’s our first experience with nonprofits. It’s not just its us based, but it’s an international organization. They have presents, not only the U. S. They have presence in Japan Korea, parts of europe India all over and it’s a huge impact. So when we, when we actually got into that organization, I think they were, they had a lot of I. T, let’s say components in this actually bought a lot of things. But I think what has happened this over a period of time, they’re all desperate components of the bottle is not integrated into one solution for them. So when we got in, we realized that there are lots of things, which they were about dead bought, they were not using and some of them they could have used it better. So we started optimizing the whole thing today we wrote something to the cloud, something in the data center and stuff like that and today they are in a position actually a very stable idea. Environment is what they have And then we also manage it for them. 24,

[00:41:50.49] spk_1:
that’s I. T. N. I. T. In. For in a box available if they’re not using that. Exactly.

[00:41:57.32] spk_8:
But all

[00:41:58.30] spk_1:
these competencies that

[00:41:59.34] spk_8:
you’re describing are

[00:42:00.56] spk_1:
in the I. T. In for in a

[00:42:27.10] spk_8:
box. So using all the confidence of I. T. In the box. Ah we didn’t start off with I. D. In front of box for them. We started off with support for them but I think it evolved into something where we felt that when we put it into a complete integrated component it can really help a lot of these nonprofits irrespective of the size. Okay Irrespective of size. Excellent. Alright, thank

[00:42:30.30] spk_1:
you very much. Pleasure to meet you and uh new york city Moynihan train hall and thank you again for your your sponsorship of non profit

[00:42:46.20] spk_8:
radio thank you and thank you. Thank you Tony. Thank you Tony for giving us this opportunity. We’re really hoping that this will give us an opportunity to be of service the non problems. That’s the way we look at it from our perspective. Terrific. Thank you so much.

[00:42:47.42] spk_1:
My pleasure thank you.

[00:42:48.50] spk_8:
My pleasure. Thank you.

[00:42:52.50] spk_5:
That’s so fun that you met in the new Moynihan train hall out of penn station.

[00:42:56.52] spk_1:
It’s beautiful. Have have you seen, have you seen the train hall yet?

[00:42:59.82] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s great. It’s really, it’s, it’s almost unrecognizable from what we think of as penn station. Maybe something closer to what the what the old penn station from way back to the

[00:43:12.42] spk_3:
old beautiful one.

[00:43:13.48] spk_5:
Yeah. Trying to get a little bit of that back.

[00:43:16.07] spk_1:
Has anybody else been there?

[00:43:17.32] spk_3:
I have been there and I grew up on Long Island so I’m very familiar with penn station which you know for years. And then the first time I had a friend in Westchester and I went to Grand Central Station, I was like that’s their train station, Wait a minute, kids from Westchester get this train station kids from Long Island at this train station. So I’m very excited about the Moynihan train station.

[00:43:39.80] spk_1:
The old Long Island Railroad was underground. I mean the station was underground

[00:43:41.81] spk_3:
station

[00:43:42.72] spk_1:
was underground, had no windows

[00:43:44.21] spk_3:
low ceilings.

[00:43:45.68] spk_1:
Remember it from when you lived in the city?

[00:43:48.02] spk_4:
Yes, for sure.

[00:43:50.10] spk_1:
Not at all.

[00:43:51.60] spk_5:
It’s a notch above Ports authority, but

[00:44:02.19] spk_4:
you still have the same sense of like if you don’t have to stop and ask for directions and you just know I’m gonna go, I’m gonna pass to, I’m gonna turn left and then I’m gonna go where I need to go. Then you’re like a real new yorker, you didn’t have to, you know like you knew the map in your head, but you don’t want to know the map in your head. Like it’s not an achievement to know it, you know, you gladly forget it. Yeah,

[00:44:22.39] spk_5:
it’s an achievement to basically spend as little time in the station as possible,

[00:44:26.69] spk_4:
right?

[00:44:27.79] spk_1:
Yeah, that was never a welcoming space.

[00:44:30.05] spk_3:
No. And sometimes you’d actually see like you’d see long island celebrities in, in, you know, sort of like many celebrities like islander players or you know baseball players or whatever. And you see you see them in Penn station and they just kind of standing there. I saw jim palmer once, if you remember the handsome baseball players from the Orioles, he was, I saw him once in Penn station. He

[00:44:48.31] spk_1:
was the quarterback, wasn’t, he

[00:44:49.57] spk_3:
was the quarterback of the Orioles. Exactly. And I once saw Billy Joel and penn station. So that’s like the ultimate to before Long Island and see Billy Joel in Penn station with a few friends because probably that was just maybe for whatever he was doing, that was the easiest way to get home.

[00:45:08.39] spk_5:
But this is the guy who he like takes a private helicopter to Madison Square garden gigs

[00:45:13.04] spk_0:
long before

[00:45:14.36] spk_5:
that. I was gonna say, I don’t think he’s taking the Long Island rail road.

[00:45:16.62] spk_3:
I’m on the higher end of the higher end of the age spectrum at this point. And so this was probably maybe like 1979 or something

[00:45:34.79] spk_1:
new york now has a, has a very fitting train train hall. It’s not, it’s not even Moynihan train station, but it’s like the difference between an anniversary and a jubilee, they don’t have a train hall, they don’t have a train station, you know, any town could have a station or, or a terminal, they have a train haul a train hall in new york, Moynihan train hall. So

[00:45:44.69] spk_4:
grand. It’s grand in that way.

[00:45:55.49] spk_1:
It’s like, like the, like the jubilee, like the jubilee. Um so um, how about a little more delightful dozen.

[00:45:58.12] spk_3:
Oh, I do have some more members of the delightful, doesn’t know

[00:46:00.92] spk_1:
what a surprise

[00:46:02.18] spk_3:
surprise, what a surprise. Well, I think, I think the next person I’d like to mention is a really cool lady who I’ve met before and her name is Regina Walton, tony Tell us about Regina.

[00:46:11.45] spk_1:
Regina, I love Regina. She was

[00:46:14.58] spk_3:
the

[00:46:45.28] spk_1:
first social media manager for nonprofit radio So she had been the social manager for my company. I know, maybe not. No, no, I take that back when I started the show in july 2010, I knew I needed help promoting and uh, and I brought Regina on board and she was the social manager for the first three or so years of the show got, got me launched, you know when I didn’t know what twitter was, she knew to get at tony-martignetti uh through the years when I didn’t know what gmail was, she knew to reserve tony-martignetti at gmail dot com,

[00:46:51.58] spk_3:
which I’ve always been

[00:47:06.78] spk_1:
Grateful for because I wouldn’t know, you know, I’d be using, I’d be using Tony-Martignetti 12 now or something at gmail. So she knew, she knew, she knew she was on a game. Regina Walton, very fond memories of the shows for and my first social manager, Regina Walton certainly belongs in that delightful dozen.

[00:47:15.08] spk_3:
Congratulations to Regina and our next member of the delightful dozen is Edgar Villanueva. He’s the author of de colonizing wealth and he heads up something called the de con de colonizing wealth project, which supports social movement and racial healing. So he’s obviously a great guy. Tell us about Edgar.

[00:47:40.58] spk_1:
It was terrific. Um very proud of his heritage. He’s a lumbee, one of the the native american tribes in north Carolina, which I have a home near the lumbee river. So he and I chatted about

[00:47:47.61] spk_3:
that in

[00:49:08.17] spk_1:
lambert exactly in Lumberton north Carolina and maybe it’s just the Lumberton Lumberton river. But lumbee certainly from that area, very smart guy. His book is de colonizing wealth and he leads the de colonizing wealth project. Um he was first on the show November 30, 2018 but I’ve replayed it many times and I’m seriously thinking about using his show to replace my annual replay of a show called zombie loyalists, which was with Peter shankman wrote a book about marketing and how to make people your zombie loyalists so that they do all your marketing and your promotion for you and they are zombies to your to your cause or your work. Um and I’ve played that many times in december but I think um I think I’m gonna replay it feels more, you know, uh promotion and and marketing have their place of course, but the colonizing wealth seems uh seems a little more move of the moment to me. So I think each december I’m gonna replay Edgar’s interview from from 2018 about about his book, the colonizing wealth. So he’ll be an annual replay and uh absolutely belongs in the among the delightful dozen.

[00:49:12.27] spk_0:
His book is

[00:49:13.26] spk_1:
a must read. I’m sorry jean go ahead. His

[00:49:30.27] spk_6:
book is a must read for anybody looking at social justice and racial justice issues and that is a must read book and I had the pleasure of listening to Edgar in Oxford of all places. Um and just a wonderful speaker and one wonderful presenter, a wonderful thought leader on on all of these topics. So I’m glad to hear he’s gonna be uh

[00:49:42.97] spk_0:
in in in the

[00:49:44.57] spk_1:
Edgar. Edgar. Edgar Villanueva, Yes, Wonderful that he got invited to speak at Oxford outstanding. Their their speaker series is preeminent.

[00:49:54.97] spk_3:
Wonderful. So our next person up is Beth Kanter who doesn’t know and love Beth Kanter. tony why is she in the delightful dozen.

[00:50:05.56] spk_1:
The only guest to say fuck on. non profit radio

[00:50:08.78] spk_3:
Well you just said it

[00:50:10.26] spk_1:
well, she was the first person.

[00:50:12.09] spk_4:
tony is not a guest. He’s not

[00:50:14.07] spk_1:
a guest. That’s true, that’s right, thank you for saving me. Yes, my statement rings, my statement rings true,

[00:50:20.40] spk_3:
but now I’m a guest host, I just I just

[00:50:23.25] spk_4:
producer, I’m

[00:50:24.92] spk_3:
not gonna do it, but we don’t really

[00:50:27.36] spk_1:
twice in one, twice in one show she

[00:50:29.48] spk_3:
said

[00:50:34.16] spk_1:
yes, she was referring to a cause I think was it fun sharks or something like

[00:50:35.79] spk_3:
that.

[00:51:10.06] spk_1:
But she’s been on the show many times, talking about her books uh you know, people think of her as a technologist, but she’s also very concerned about wellness and and the the whole person bringing your whole person to work. Um Her most recent book is with with Allison Fine, the smart non profit which is another duo that I need to have on the show very soon along with Amy sample ward and uh and their co author, that’s why the host is lackluster, but it’s coming, it’s coming. So Beth and Beth and Allison will be on soon but Beth longtime supporter of the show many time, many time guests and she has that distinction for

[00:51:23.06] spk_0:
her

[00:51:24.16] spk_4:
and love out to Beth who in a couple months ago finished her six years on the N 10 board,

[00:51:33.86] spk_3:
thank you for your service.

[00:51:36.65] spk_1:
Very important.

[00:51:57.16] spk_3:
Cantor, thank you for being in the delightful dozen, which leads us to our next member of the delightful dozen whose book, Beth Kanter wrote the forward for. And that book is Bitcoin and the future of fundraising. And the author of that is our next member of the delightful dozen. And he is Jason shim another

[00:51:58.56] spk_1:
Delightful Guest. Yes, I remember the N 10 board. Right

[00:52:02.02] spk_4:
amy, he was on the same terms as that. So he and yeah, he invest just turned off

[00:52:59.75] spk_1:
All right, service on the N- 10 board belongs in a delightful dozen because he’s he’s such a generous supporter of the show when, when, when he’s on he rises above other folks in terms of uh, most other folks, uh in terms of promotion and just sharing the show and uh, he’s a delight and he’s always he’s got very practical uh grounded suggestions. But he also can look at the 30,000 ft view, you know, in that book, Bitcoin in the future of fundraising, you know, also able to look ahead. Um, and I should also just shout out pathways to education Canada where he is the IT Director, director of technology perhaps, but he’s a muckety muck. Education. Canada leave it at that

[00:53:02.41] spk_4:
parental leave right now

[00:53:04.31] spk_1:
on parental leave to have a child. They had a

[00:53:11.85] spk_4:
child. Yeah, he and his partner had a child in, she was born in december,

[00:53:14.85] spk_1:
wonderful. Yes.

[00:53:27.05] spk_4:
Canada, you know, Canada actually cares for its people. And so they have parental leave for a very long time. All

[00:53:27.28] spk_1:
right. thank you Claire we will

[00:53:28.95] spk_3:
And let’s we have we have one more quick one. Let’s do Sam Liebowitz, Sam

[00:53:41.05] spk_1:
sam the producer, the line producer of the show. He had the studio in new york city, I was with him for three different studios in new york city. He had trouble paying his rent. No, he uh

[00:53:50.04] spk_3:
different

[00:53:52.12] spk_0:
uh

[00:54:46.34] spk_1:
everybody in new york city has trouble paying the rent now he moved around lisa’s ended but he got better deals. Um but yeah, Sam Liebowitz, very special place for nonprofit radio and for me um he gave me a spot on the show, gave me a spot on his online network when non profit radio was brand new. All of you may remember that was friday at one o’clock friday one PM We used to do our our show live and it was livestreamed of course SAM managed not only the production of the logistics of getting folks on the call and what to do when the call drops and how to get them back on, but also managed to live stream, which was going out and then he did facebook live streaming for the show and and I learned from SAM that a a minute when you have to fill it can feel like a day,

[00:54:48.23] spk_4:
but

[00:54:59.84] spk_1:
An hour show flies like two minutes. So Sam Liebowitz a special place in my heart and non profit radios heart for for sam, thank you Claire,

[00:55:01.94] spk_3:
thank you very, very much.

[00:55:08.64] spk_1:
Thanks and we’ll be revisiting one more time. Delightful doesn’t but scott. Uh scott is gonna play that’s gonna play cheap red wine I believe I hope.

[00:55:38.74] spk_5:
Yeah. And just want to say real quick tony It’s such a pleasure to be here. And uh this it all started from you licensed this song to use cheap red wine as the walk in music as it were. And uh it’s just been so fun to have this continuing work relationship and and so and thank you for you know picking my music and enjoying it. So pleasure, pleasure to be here. So

[00:55:40.09] spk_1:
it was my pleasure scott.

[00:55:48.74] spk_0:
Mhm

[00:56:01.33] spk_2:
Baby just came up talking sooner or later. I’ll figure out just to watch your

[00:56:08.63] spk_0:
head. You’re

[00:56:25.83] spk_2:
seeking romantic advice from my bill when I’m looking for answers up on a tv screen and we care to be a nothing we can tell our ups from our downs, we’re disappointed in each other. Tell me baby ain’t this love that we found

[00:56:32.53] spk_0:
you

[00:57:15.33] spk_2:
know, you used to find me charming but I can’t figure out how and you said you thought I was handsome but doesn’t matter now so keep falling from a punch hands as long as you’re time poor allowed cause I’ve got a rapid promises, a bottle of cheap wine now, you know some girls are just living diamonds, they were on top of the cut of clothing that are way not to go to work for the good stuff. You’re too easily to strike to take care. Well, I ain’t got too many options. So I’m gonna do the best that I

[00:57:19.99] spk_0:
can.

[00:57:31.83] spk_2:
Well maybe you’ll have some competition one day when I’m a wealthier man. You know, you used to find me charming, but I can’t figure out how. And you said you thought it was handsome, but it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling from a punch on. As long as your time will allow. Because I’ve got arrested promises by legit a while now.

[00:57:52.23] spk_0:
Oh,

[00:58:15.72] spk_2:
hey baby, let’s raise our glasses, take a drink the better days. The other people can kiss our ass’s because they don’t like the things you sing and the heavens that I won’t flashing victory signs because we’re perfect for each other. As long as we have nobody else in mind, nobody is waiting.

[00:58:43.52] spk_0:
Mhm Whoa, whoa. Yeah. You know, you

[00:58:45.91] spk_2:
used to find me charming, but I can’t figure out how you said your father’s hands and never mind it. Don’t matter

[00:58:52.87] spk_0:
now. So keep

[00:58:53.83] spk_2:
falling from my Puncheon’s. As long as your time will allow because I’ve got her any promises about the cheaper and whatever.

[00:59:06.82] spk_0:
Mhm

[00:59:11.62] spk_2:
cheap and whatever. Oh

[00:59:46.82] spk_0:
yeah. Okay. Mhm Mhm

[00:59:57.82] spk_1:
Scott. Thank

[00:59:58.28] spk_3:
you. Thank you

[01:00:02.20] spk_1:
song always makes me smile. Scott. I turned up my volume

[01:00:06.92] spk_5:
and and and I didn’t have any banging on the walls from the neighbors. So we’re good.

[01:00:11.31] spk_4:
I thought you meant from the

[01:00:14.40] spk_0:
baby.

[01:00:18.31] spk_5:
No.

[01:00:19.95] spk_1:
You

[01:00:20.43] spk_5:
Know when she turns like 13. Dad, not that song again.

[01:00:24.13] spk_1:
You’ll still be on once a year. I have to hear this song.

[01:00:28.36] spk_0:
Dad, this old, he’s gone this guy

[01:00:36.21] spk_1:
up Claire. Let’s finish up our delightful does.

[01:00:59.71] spk_3:
All right. Well this delightful dozen has just been delightful. I’ve had such a delightful time putting together the delightful dozen with my Pal Tony-Martignetti who I admire greatly for his 600 podcasts. Just amazing. So the next members are final members actually of the delightful dozen are Amy sample Ward and jean Takaki. That’s two of them.

[01:02:12.90] spk_1:
So grateful to each of you for your contributions, you know, for for helping small and midsize shops, you know, certainly for the contributions you make to the show the time you put in on the show. But you know, each of your individual practices too. You know, you’re, you’re devoted to, to helping helping those, those small and midsize shops grow and, and be sustainable and be smart about legal compliance, gene and be smart about the use of technology. Amy. And um, I’m grateful. I’m grateful to each of you to have you as esteemed contributors. Um, jean you, you, you joined the show boy second month, Your first time on the show was August 27th of 2010. We talked about keeping your board on board. So with my, my silly puns. I I started early, started early. I’m still trying keeping your board on board and out of trouble and And that was our 7th show and you’ve been on you’ve been a contributor since. Thank you jean.

[01:02:20.00] spk_6:
Thank you tony amazing! Um too afraid to

[01:02:21.19] spk_1:
be

[01:02:32.70] spk_6:
um that long and to be a part of it too, I really appreciate you giving me a voice to, to folks like us to to be able to share our perspectives with with your listeners and really just a wonderful service that you provide,

[01:03:29.30] spk_1:
I would say your expertise, I know you’re too modest to say that, but it’s your you’re sharing your expertise with listeners, so thank you and I’m happy to give you that that that platform of course, Amy Amy joined in uh 10th show. So that was July 13, 2012, 500 shows ago, that was in all social media show as a matter of fact, um Amy and jean were both on together and then there were a couple of other former contributors, Maria Semple and scott Legler. Amy joined us on the 100th show first as our social media contributor and then technology and social media contributor. Amy, you know, I I was trying to remember who introduced us. I I don’t I don’t remember but I’m forever grateful that uh that we got together and Grateful for your contributions, you know, the time you put into the show and the collaboration with within 10 as well around the conference each year,

[01:04:56.69] spk_4:
I’m so glad I started when I still lived in new york. So I have lots of memories of trying to get on the subway to get down to sand studio and go up to like tiny one person coffin elevator into its new york. So every train is always late and I’d be trying to text you, I’m coming and you were like, I’ll just keep randomly talking into this microphone and tell him he walks through the elevator. Um but I’ll tell you that I really appreciated you tony because I don’t know how much you remember this because we’ve had the opportunity to talk about lots of things over the year. But um When after I started on the show in 2012, on the 10th episode after that uh is when intense former executive director stepped down and I told you did, should I try to be the ceo should I apply? Because I’m hearing from some people when I’ve asked them that like I’m too young or I can’t do it, you know, I’m not qualified. And you were like, why wouldn’t you be the Ceo? And I was like, darn it. I’m gonna apply and here I am all these years later, still the Ceo. So thank you for believing in me.

[01:04:59.49] spk_3:
That’s a great story. I I really love that story, anne, thank you for sharing that because so many people really feel like, oh, I don’t know if I should apply for that. I don’t have enough experience and and we all should apply for everything all the time. I’m running for president of the United States.

[01:05:13.12] spk_4:
I qualified but

[01:05:18.19] spk_3:
hey, alright then we got thank you so much amy and

[01:05:21.52] spk_1:
thank you for being

[01:05:22.52] spk_3:
in our delightful dozen aimee and jean and so um we have another one and then another one. So the first of the other ones are Susan Chavez, tony Susan Chavez.

[01:06:30.78] spk_1:
Why she’s our excellent current social media manager for the show. She she promotes the show, she’s proactive about doing it. She has ideas. Uh the things that we can do. Uh she tracks analytics, we talk each month about numbers and what might be causing different trends or she’ll set my mind at ease and say, you know it’s a blip, don’t worry about it. Of course those are the downward trends. But then she’ll, you know, usually the upward trends is usually because she had a recommendation for something that we try and it brought a lot of attention, you know, on one of the platforms or to the to the site or to the show, that particular show or something. So yes, much gratitude to Susan Chavez. I, when I’m telling people that they’ll hear from her when they’re, when they’re getting their appearances coming up on the show. I say you’ll get an email from my excellent social manager. Susan Chavez always say excellent social manager. So she’s in Chavez

[01:06:32.34] spk_3:
Chavez

[01:06:32.90] spk_1:
gratitude to her.

[01:06:43.18] spk_3:
Okay, so we’ve got a carton of eggs, there’s 11 eggs, good eggs in the carton and we have one final good egg to put in our carton of the delightful dozen and the final person in our delightful dozen is none other than scott stein

[01:06:47.48] spk_5:
has

[01:06:48.02] spk_1:
To be, has to be yes, I had trouble finding that licensing agreement but uh Jean will be pleased to know that this is all this was all done by attorney was not a handshake deal. It was, it was August of 2013. I licensed your show.

[01:07:50.58] spk_5:
Yeah, I remember that it was from my old roommate joseph Becker who is an attorney and who connected us. So yeah, absolutely, but But first again, congratulations 600 episodes is just amazing and I should also add like as a professional musician, the nonprofit world is is also very near and dear to my heart because a lot of what we do involves foundations and you know, and and and the nonprofit world in the music world are very much intertwined. Um so this is just a wonderful resource and and I, I suspect too that some folks that I’ve worked with over the years, our our listeners as well and if they’re not they should be. So

[01:07:51.21] spk_1:
it’s got to get a lot of comments about non profit radio that it’s one of the things people say, you know they learn from it. It’s valuable but also entertaining,

[01:07:59.58] spk_5:
good

[01:08:00.09] spk_1:
and your music, your music brings us in every show and takes us out every show. So you’re a big part of what people like about non profit radio So thank you,

[01:08:08.75] spk_5:
thank you,

[01:08:15.77] spk_3:
Thank you. And that is our delightful dozen, 12. Fabulous people that Tony-Martignetti um acknowledged

[01:08:16.70] spk_1:
12. Yes, absolutely. And there are 12. Exemplary folks, delightful, delightful.

[01:08:23.13] spk_3:
However

[01:08:24.58] spk_1:
claire, I would like to make it a baker’s dozen,

[01:08:26.67] spk_3:
13

[01:08:27.44] spk_1:
Yes, I want to make you are extra donut, you’re the extra donut and our doesn’t

[01:08:33.75] spk_3:
crispy cream. I love the big box of Krispy Kreme, can I be the doughnut with like the white frosting and the multi colored sprinkles

[01:09:06.37] spk_1:
Absolutely. That’s you, that’s you Our 13th donut. Our 13th member of the delightful dozen. Um you know, talk about believing in, you know, you believed in me when I had this crazy idea that I wanted to start a podcast 12 years ago and you said you have no idea what you’re getting into, you have to keep it up, you have to have guests and and and you really, you know, you haven’t, you don’t have a background in it, but you know, you gave me the downsides and I said, I can do it and you believed you believed you talked me out of calling it tony tony-martignetti show.

[01:09:17.08] spk_3:
I said it had to have non profit in the title. You need a nonprofit in the title

[01:09:21.73] spk_1:
that was probably a good idea.

[01:09:23.59] spk_3:
And I talked you out of doing news because it wouldn’t be evergreen news.

[01:09:28.37] spk_1:
I talked you out of

[01:09:29.11] spk_3:
doing news and then

[01:09:30.92] spk_1:
After two weeks and

[01:09:58.57] spk_3:
then I said, you know how to do like a run down a show sheet, you had to book guests. I made you all these little cheat sheets and stuff and and helped you out at the very, you know, I’m so proud. I really am. I’m really proud to have been there from the beginning from that, that first conversation that we had at the steakhouse in cary north Carolina where I go, you’re gonna do a podcast like do you know how much work that is? Yeah, so that was way back in the day. So thank you, thank you for letting me be your baker’s dozen and the dozen donuts in the Krispy Kreme box, send us some free donuts Krispy Kreme,

[01:10:03.36] spk_1:
thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:10:05.10] spk_3:
Thank you. Thank you. tony

[01:10:06.78] spk_1:
Non profit radio 12 years ago.

[01:10:41.06] spk_3:
It’s unbelievable. I’m so, so proud of you. I’m gonna cry. I’m really, really, really proud of you because people think they can do a podcast. They think it’s easy and it is not and it’s a lot of work and to do one every single week. That’s why I tell everybody that I’m like this guy does a podcast every single week. He books guests, they’re all good podcasts, They’re all high quality, you do all the, you know, you bring it all together. It’s very hard to produce something and host it and get it on the air and do all the social and the and the production and everything around it. So Three cheers to you. Tony-Martignetti maybe it’s a baker’s plus dozen of 14 and you’re in there as well.

[01:10:45.95] spk_1:
Well, I haven’t have an exemplary team helping, but thank you, thank

[01:10:50.88] spk_3:
you Claire, Thanks tony

[01:11:05.76] spk_1:
It’s time to wrap, wrap our our 600th show, the 12th jubilee of course we’ll be back next July for 650. So glad, thank you. Thank you jean, thank you amy, thank you scott. Thank you Claire Meyerhoff. We always called each other, I always call it, we’re just

[01:11:11.26] spk_3:
gonna go high tony-martignetti

[01:11:12.91] spk_4:
thank

[01:11:13.69] spk_1:
you thanks to

[01:11:14.21] spk_3:
everybody.

[01:11:24.86] spk_1:
Um and uh my, my gratitude to our listeners, you what you’re what makes the show worth doing, we do it for you.

[01:11:27.96] spk_4:
Thank you Tony,

[01:11:29.66] spk_3:
thank you so much tony you’re the best. Really

[01:11:36.06] spk_4:
tony just like I said earlier, you know that All these folks have 13,000 people have been listening for years because they want to keep learning. You are such a great example of someone who has never said, you already know everything and you are consistently open to learning and I appreciate that about you.

[01:11:52.96] spk_1:
Thanks

[01:12:30.95] spk_3:
and if I could say something about non profit people in general as I’ve been thinking, I’ve been listening to Gene and Amy all this time and scott. What he just said about the music world is that non profit people are really wonderful. We really volunteer our time like what we’re doing right now. We took this hour and a half out of our day to do this. Not that it’s you know, we love it, it’s great but nonprofit people are very good at sharing and actually really care about the nonprofit world and we do everything that everybody asks us if someone says, hey claire, can you write me a little article? Can you do this? Can Oh yeah sure. It’s like we all really help each other out a lot and just like peter said earlier, it’s it’s it’s really a wonderful community and I’m going to cry because I’m really proud to be part of the nonprofit world. I can’t imagine working in any other field.

[01:12:45.65] spk_1:
Beautiful thank you. Claire, thank

[01:12:47.70] spk_3:
you. tony

[01:13:30.25] spk_1:
next week. R 22 N. TC coverage picks back up with cyber security for the accidental techie. That’s a good one. They’re all good. You missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T infra in a box, affordable tech solution for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[01:13:37.55] spk_0:
Our

[01:13:37.86] spk_1:
creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan

[01:13:43.28] spk_0:
Mark

[01:13:44.39] spk_1:
Silverman is our web guy

[01:13:46.20] spk_0:
and this music

[01:13:47.01] spk_1:
is by scott

[01:13:51.35] spk_0:
Stein. Thank

[01:13:51.62] spk_1:
you for that. Affirmation

[01:13:52.55] spk_0:
scotty, You’re

[01:13:54.31] spk_1:
with me next week for nonprofit

[01:13:55.66] spk_0:
radio Big

[01:13:56.90] spk_1:
non profit ideas for

[01:13:58.20] spk_0:
the other

[01:13:59.27] spk_2:
95

[01:14:03.45] spk_0:
percent. Claire

[01:14:06.43] spk_3:
tony Oh, I have a line,

[01:14:09.20] spk_2:
I have a line, it’s so

[01:14:20.45] spk_0:
important to go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm.

Nonprofit Radio for July 11, 2022: Service Design

 

Janice Chan: Service Design

Our #22NTC coverage continues with Janice Chan sharing her strategies for creating great programs, events and campaigns that offer value while balancing the needs of all your stakeholders. She’s from Shift and Scaffold.

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:34.94] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. This is show # 599. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with blast. Oh my co sis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show Service design. Our 22 NTC coverage continues with Janice Chan Sharing her strategies for creating great programs, events and campaigns that offer value while balancing the needs of all your stakeholders. She’s from shift and scaffold On Tony’s take two my three lessons sounds like my three sons were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. And by 4th dimension Technologies IT Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper here is service design.

[00:01:39.34] spk_1:
Welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:01:56.34] spk_0:
Non profit radio coverage of 22 NTC 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10. My guest now is Janice chan she’s director at shift and scaffold Janice Welcome back to non profit radio

[00:01:59.74] spk_1:
Thanks so much for having me. tony

[00:02:01.78] spk_0:
Absolutely you’re welcome these Ntc’s bring us Together this is your third, your third show,

[00:02:07.76] spk_1:
I think so. 3rd time’s the charm. Right?

[00:02:11.14] spk_0:
Well yes but it’ll be more charming from next year on

[00:02:16.24] spk_1:
you

[00:02:16.46] spk_0:
think you’re gonna go to the to the in person conference next year in Denver have you thought about that

[00:02:27.14] spk_1:
I haven’t thought too much about that because you know, planning a whole year out is uh you know, kind of beyond my brain,

[00:02:28.94] spk_0:
I

[00:02:31.68] spk_1:
hope to be able to attend.

[00:02:34.04] spk_0:
I think I’ll be there.

[00:02:35.29] spk_1:
Yeah, awesome, wonderful.

[00:02:48.64] spk_0:
Your workshop this year is service design better experiences for everyone. That’s uh that’s pretty broad. You’re, you’re promising a lot there, everybody’s gonna be satisfied with this.

[00:02:53.63] spk_1:
I am promising a lot and I

[00:02:57.66] spk_0:
nobody left out.

[00:07:30.84] spk_1:
I think that that is so to give a little bit of a back story um for the context in which I was approaching this session and why I brought it forward was so I was a nonprofit technologist for many, many years. And um you know, when I was in, I said to go to graduate school, I went to school and for information management, which is basically about understanding people’s information needs and how do we make information usable and accessible and useful to people. And that was when I learned about user experience and then service design. And so when I was learning about service design, I recognize a lot of things that I had done in my nonprofit work. Um and it was really, it really resonated. It also was like, how come I didn’t know about this sooner. I don’t know people talk about these methods and a lot of these frameworks I think are really beneficial for people who are working in social impact sector and so too as to why I think so, right? Service design kind of looks at design is just problem solving, which is what people of non profit sector do all the time. And service design looks at if you’re providing your service like an after school program managing donor relationships, running a volunteer program, that sort of thing. It looks at the end to end experience of like what’s the experience of that person who’s going through that program? Who’s a volunteer, who’s a donor, who’s even an employee perhaps. Right. And what are all the things that it takes to make that happen? So, you know, there’s things that the organization, the employees need to do on the back end. There’s systems and Crm s and like processes and resources that they need. Maybe there’s data that they’re collecting. And so it looks at all of these things all together. And for me, that felt very much like what people do in the social sector, right? Because you’re I don’t know, running, let’s say a volunteer program and you want to make sure that like the kids who are coming to summer camp are having a good time, right? Because that’s the point of the summer camp. But you want to make sure the volunteers are having a good time because you’re not you’re not paying them. And then you got to think through, okay, Like I need like supplies and I need to schedule people and I need transportation, right? You have to think through all those logistical things. You might have some data that you need to collect for the funders. There’s things that like organizationally your staff who’s like, you know, hey, we have a policy, we need to like run background checks and the volunteers before they can start all of those things. And so I think that services line offers a lot to helping us think about those, how to tackle those types of challenges. And also because we’re constantly balancing the needs of different stakeholder groups, right? We’ve got our community members, we’ve got our clients and our volunteers and our donors. And then like funders and whoever and we have our staff, right? Different staff have different needs. And so when we’re thinking about that, right? Sometimes like the power dynamics really balanced in this, in this sector that we work in. And so it can be easy just like default to whoever carries the most weight and whoever like has the biggest amount of influence. And I think that even though services is not inherently necessary, like focused on say equity. But I think that the frameworks lend themselves to, okay, if we look at this entire picture, we have to ask the question and it helps to start the conversation. We have to ask the question of like does it make sense for organization to run this program in this way. Right? Like we want the community members have a good experience. But also there’s things like our staff capacity, our resources, right? Like what does it actually take to deliver this program at the level that we’re wanting to to deliver it at and also that safe and you know, accessible inclusive, all of those things. Right. And then it gives us the ability to like have that conversation with the other people who are involved um and to kind of bring them into the room.

[00:07:34.14] spk_0:
So is this a framework for a methodology

[00:07:38.74] spk_1:
of

[00:07:48.04] spk_0:
evaluating existing programs? Uh and I know it applies either existing programs or to, you know, something new programs. But is it is it is there a methodology or is just a way of thinking or what is drilled down? Like what is

[00:07:55.84] spk_1:
what,

[00:07:58.04] spk_0:
what what is I understand it at a conceptual level. But how do you execute service design?

[00:08:09.84] spk_1:
Sure. So service design could be looked at as a discipline, right? Like graphic design is its own discipline. Um Computer engineering is

[00:08:13.03] spk_0:
right.

[00:08:27.84] spk_1:
It’s about the whole process. But I think that there are ways to incorporate the frameworks that we use in service design, the tools or methods that we use in service design and incorporate those into non profit work to kind of help just balance like all of those different things going on.

[00:09:57.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications media relations and thought leadership turn to has the media relationships to make you the thought leader and where they don’t have a relationship. They know how to start one and grow it for your benefit? Like for instance with the leading state or local news outlet in your area. So they may not know them now, but they can get to know them. And that means you get to know them. And that means you get your message out when you need to be heard. Like when there is something in the local news related to your work or the national news, you want to be heard. Media relations and thought leadership Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to service design. Suppose we’re evaluating, uh, in an existing program. Let’s take those folks, you know, all our folks, all our listeners have programs. They might be embarking on new programs, but everybody’s, everybody’s got got something going on now. So let’s let’s work with that little, that bigger population. We’ve got something going on now. Multiple programs, naturally lots of nonprofits. Um, how do you, how do we start to

[00:09:59.14] spk_1:
think about,

[00:10:00.07] spk_0:
uh, an evaluation process.

[00:13:05.24] spk_1:
Sure. So I think like the way that what we’re looking for and within, if you’re taking a service that approach to looking at an existing program and how we can improve it, write the things that you’re looking at are, I mean for every nonprofit, right? This is less a service design thing and more of a why we’re doing the work we do thing is is it helping us achieve the mission? Is it helping us like move the needles that we’re trying to move right? You always want to know whether it’s doing that. But then sort of like digging down into that further. You want to understand like, what’s the experience of somebody who’s going through and receiving this service? Right? Is that the experience that we want them to have? Like if you’re running like say a workforce training program, right? Like obviously for it to be valuable to the participant, they need to be able to, it needs to help them like find jobs or be more equipped to find, you know, change careers or whatever it is at the end of that program. But in going through that program, right? You probably your organization have some values like we want to be inclusive. We want people to feel like they matter and feel empowered. Right? And do people feel that way going through that program? So that’s kind of like the first, the top layer of it and then sort of like the bottom or sort of supporting layers of that are, you know, in order to make this valuable to the organization right? Valuable to the organization and the social sectors, You know, things like, is it helping us achieve our mission? And also does it make maybe like sense that we’re the ones doing this the way in which we’re doing it. Is it sustainable for us, given our capacity given how we’re structured and set up? You know, I think that’s an opportunity of course to like revisit some things and I think that can come out of a lot of service design work is I think the biggest thing is alignment and a lot of the times when people are frustrated with the process, whether they’re the person receiving the service or they’re the employees in the back end, that they’re like this is just like we can’t keep doing things like this, right? This is really frustrating, It’s taking way more time than it should. It seems like really tedious or we’re not being equipped or resourced to do the work that we’re actually trying to do. And I think a lot of those frustrations come out of misalignment, right? Maybe you started this program 10 years ago and back then, right? Like the way you set things that made sense at the time and it’s easy to let like many years go by and like things are so working, but we never really stand back and take a look at the whole picture to see like does this still make sense given that probably the context has changed, right. Other things have changed. And so what do we need to improve a realign or make sure is actually supporting the end outcomes that we’re working for?

[00:13:43.94] spk_0:
Alright, write these big picture questions are align when you talk about alignment? You mean, I I think alignment with mission alignment with the impacts that you want to create in the community. You know, does it like you said, does it make sense for us to be for us to be doing it and doing it in the way that we’re doing it? So, you know, so these big picture, but it is it’s important to step back and be introspective, be, be scrutinizing all the work that you’re doing because you don’t want to maybe it’s better done by another organization or better done vastly different than you’re doing it, or just a little bit different than you’re doing it.

[00:14:15.44] spk_1:
Yeah, it can be the little things too like we, you know, are sending these volunteers out and they’re not having a good time and, you know what? We have really inconsistent training for them, Right. And and that could be a thing that’s not a line. We want them to do things in a certain way and feel equipped to do things, but we’re not providing them the support that they need in order to actually do that. Um, so it can also be for incremental improvements as well.

[00:14:22.04] spk_0:
Your right eye. Thank you. There’s another level of alignment to just aside from alignment with mission and impact, but alignment within the

[00:14:28.99] spk_1:
program,

[00:14:36.64] spk_0:
you know, are we are we not reimbursing our volunteers sufficiently or are we asking them to do too much or too little? How do you start to get this feedback from all the different cohorts. You’ve got your service recipients, you’ve got your volunteers, you’ve got your staff potentially very likely. How do you start to get the honest feedback

[00:14:53.14] spk_1:
as

[00:14:53.45] spk_0:
you’re, as you’re trying to be introspective?

[00:16:00.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I think is very much a team sport, right? Like I cannot tell you the the frontline picture if I’m not the front line person, right? I can’t tell you what it looks like from that perspective or what would make my job easier. And so I think the really big thing is to a product like identify of course, like who are all the people who are involved, who are all the people who are impacted and people are impacted to varying involved to varying levels of course. Um, but just figure out like what are the questions that things that we need to understand from these people, like who do we need to get in touch with? And I think just honestly getting people to sort of participate in drawing the picture of what things look like now. So one of the core tools in service design is the service blueprints. And that’s sort of like just mapping out a diagram of like what are the all the little bits and pieces that make up the service and you know, what does that journey look like for somebody who’s like going through? Like maybe like we have a summer program, right? Someone who’s going through a summer program,

[00:16:06.54] spk_0:
it’s

[00:17:07.44] spk_1:
like journey mapping with extra layers right? With the entire back end of you know, here’s the workflow that the employees are doing here, the support processes here. The systems we use, maybe there’s a data level, it can be really kind of whatever makes sense for your organization. But I think the biggest part is like getting, you know, and you can get feedback in many ways. Um you know the research methods you would use in service design or similar to other research, you would use another discipline. So like interview surveys, um you could do a workshop so all of these things right, contribute to to making up this picture. But I think the really powerful part of getting people from these different stakeholder groups involved in creating that picture, is that then everybody sees the same picture and can have that conversation about, oh like I can see why there is a problem or like these things are just kind of disconnected and we didn’t plan for like how somebody would get from step A to step B um or like hey they have like no resources, we have no staff because like somebody left and we never like refilled that position or what have you. Um it allows people to see agree on the problems because they can all see them together.

[00:18:39.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break, 4th dimension technologies, business continuity in case of emergency break glass then what as part of four D’s. I. T. Infra in a box. They’ll work with you to develop your incident response plan which includes who disseminates the tech info. How does I. T. Security change now? What hardware and software changes do we need? What changes I. T. Wise in the office and how about remotely business continuity is part of the I. T. Buffet so you can take it or leave it the same with security like multi factor authentication and they’re help desk and I. T. Audit and training and a technology plan for you. All these are part of their I. T. In. For in a box. Fourth dimension technologies. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to service design

[00:18:43.94] spk_1:
then. How

[00:18:53.54] spk_0:
do you start to uh makes make change? I mean I imagine you have to have leadership buy into this to this process to this introspection.

[00:18:56.54] spk_1:
You know how do you

[00:18:58.04] spk_0:
studies if this is a substantial program, there’s a lot of moving parts.

[00:19:02.14] spk_1:
How do you

[00:19:04.94] spk_0:
start to tweak something and make sure it’s not

[00:19:05.85] spk_1:
gonna

[00:19:11.84] spk_0:
adversely impact something else or some other group of stakeholders that you didn’t anticipate. You know how do you start to tweak these changes.

[00:22:08.14] spk_1:
So I think the biggest part about the approach of service design is that you’re involving. So at least you know some representatives from each of these stakeholder groups you can tell you like. Yeah you can’t change that because of this other thing. It’s going to break or if you change that, right? Like we need to figure out how we can address this particular need or process or what have you. And so by doing that right? Like I can’t know everything. Like no one person can know every single thing about all the different components of a service or program, right? So it’s sort of like, let’s build up this brain trust so that we’re not missing those important things. But to your point, right? Like to even start that process you need but the culture that supports that, right? In terms of we’re open to input, we’re open to getting um feedback into taking it seriously and to to really thinking about like who is getting the most impacted by the service and any changes that we make and you know, of course leadership, right? In terms of depending a bit on like how your organization works. But in most organizations, right? If you don’t have buy in at some of those key levels or for like key people with it. Like, if you’re looking at a program and the program director doesn’t hasn’t bought isn’t on board yet, right? With doing this process, then, you know, that’s gonna be a hard thing to you have to address that first. But I think that like in using participatory methods and helping people just visualize like, here’s what’s going on, right? Like I know that you’re frustrated and you think it’s this one thing, but there are these five other things going on. And I think that offers the opportunity also to show people how it could be better because a lot of times, right? And I’m sure you’ve had this experience, many, many of us have of it’s frustrating, it’s annoying like this just feels like it’s not working. Why are we still doing it this way? But like nobody knows how to fix it, but you can’t begin to fix something if you can’t identify what is actually causing, like what is the actual root of why it’s so problematic. And so getting people to agree on that, right? That’s a point from which you can begin to brainstorm about what could be better. Or I feel like a lot of times when I do this work, people come out of the woodwork like, oh yeah, like I’ve been thinking for a long time, but this could be better and I had an idea but I didn’t know where to go with it, right? Or I didn’t think that people would be on board with changing it, or I was worried that if I made this change that it was going to have this ripple effect and I don’t I don’t know what that is, right? So some of it I think is also kind of empowering people to be, you know, sort of change agents within their organizations as well,

[00:22:16.84] spk_0:
Okay, um what else should we know about, about service design, whatever we talked about

[00:22:21.42] spk_1:
yet that, that

[00:22:22.63] spk_0:
you, you shared in your, in your session.

[00:23:55.04] spk_1:
So I think that like one of the, you know, I think this is a common, common challenge, right? And change projects, is that like a lot of times they can be so big, right? And seems so overwhelming and then like the time you get done with it, you’re like, is this what we wanted or have other things change and should we have changed things along the way? So I think in service design and many design disciplines apart, one of the things that you want to do is to keep iterating and to your point about like making making big changes and them having those having implications, right? Because you can ask all of the people get input from everybody involved and roll something out and there’s still something that you didn’t anticipate, right? Like there’s just, it’s just the way of life and technology and working. Um, but if you roll out parts of the time where you test that little parts of the time and then test and design testing is really just, I’m going to try a thing with real people and just see how it works out in the real world, not in this, like on the computer, it looks like this lovely flow chart of like how this is supposed to work, right? And then where the rubber hits the road is when you test it out with real people and then iterating your stress like okay, we tried it, that was draft one. We’re going to make some changes based on what we learned from that. And so it doesn’t have to be like this like massive pilot program kind of situation, right? Like you could tweak one small thing and just see how that works and then tweak the next small thing and see how that works.

[00:24:05.84] spk_0:
That’s probably a better approach. Anyway.

[00:24:08.34] spk_1:
You

[00:24:08.43] spk_0:
know, I was saying, you know, I was saying big overhaul changes, you know that that can be upsetting for everybody involved and you know, it might mean delays in delivering the program. You know, it

[00:24:20.72] spk_1:
seems like

[00:24:27.44] spk_0:
tweaks R and then iterating R r is a better way to, there’s a better way to go about,

[00:25:03.14] spk_1:
right? And and it’s different right? If you’re starting a new program right, you might take the big approach because you’re starting not really from like nothing is really from scratch, right? But there’s not an existing program that you need to keep operating at the same time when you’ve got something existing. I think incremental is a lot better. And you know, you can avoid things like, oh that completely just broke this other thing that, you know, when we made this change, right? You can go in and fix that and then adjust course as you need to and you know, because otherwise it’s like it’s just you can’t do all of the things that once there’s no like staples easy button

[00:25:15.44] spk_0:
Yeah right. And it becomes overwhelming and creates lack of inertia though. Um What were some of the questions that you

[00:25:17.84] spk_1:
got in

[00:25:18.13] spk_0:
the session?

[00:25:19.24] spk_1:
So I will admit I really jammed a lot of tent into my

[00:25:24.42] spk_0:
session.

[00:25:34.14] spk_1:
Um so I didn’t get a ton of questions but but I think one of the things that I would say when I try to explain what I do to other people, first of all people here design and they’re like graphic design, visual design, right? That’s like usually what pops into people’s heads, right? But so much of us do design every day.

[00:25:48.32] spk_0:
You’re stuck with me. I didn’t even, I didn’t even think along those lines and and as soon as you said it it helps us understand what what practices. So

[00:25:56.61] spk_1:
yeah, bring

[00:25:57.90] spk_0:
me along slowly. I’m trainable, trainable but take it in increments please.

[00:26:51.64] spk_1:
I appreciate it. So design is really just problem solving right? And it’s things that we do every day. It’s like if you move the dishrag to be closer to the sink because that works better and you’re dripping us on the floor right? Like you’re redesigning your space so that you have less dripping wet dishes on the floor right? You’re solving your problem for you. And so we do this every day research is you know, sounds like a big thing but it’s just information gathering, right? If I’m trying to pick new software. I probably like look up if they have any reviews. What are the features? Maybe I talked to somebody who’s using that product that their organization, right? That’s research. But we don’t necessarily research. Sounds big and academic and formal. I’m sorry. Were you gonna say something?

[00:27:00.34] spk_0:
Only that I was gonna riff on your example that now that you’ve moved the dishes closer to the sink, you’re getting less water on the floor, but your elbows are breaking the crystal.

[00:27:04.40] spk_1:
So perhaps perhaps so now you have to iterate, right?

[00:28:39.64] spk_0:
Didn’t anticipate that. Right? Alright. Maybe it belongs on the other side. Your less dominant side. That doesn’t move as much It’s time for Tony’s take two. As you know, As you heard this is my silver jubilee in planned giving. So I have a blog post To memorialize my three top lessons takeaways, whichever parlance you prefer. The lessons for the That used to be until they became takeaways several years ago. I’ve got the three of them. The top three and the first one is it’s all about relationships and relationships are much easier and hopefully they go much deeper then you might expect. So that’s my first thinking first take away from 25 years in planned giving the others and a little background but not too long. Let’s not get carried away. Let’s not get narcissistic But some background about my 25 years, my my initiation getting started in planned Giving that is all in this blog post, which is at planned giving accelerator dot com. And then you click blog. Thank Giving accelerator dot com. Quick blog. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for service design. With Janice chan

[00:28:49.44] spk_1:
All

[00:28:49.60] spk_0:
Right, well you said you uh, you said you packed your session full and you’ve really been talking like 20 minutes or

[00:28:54.87] spk_1:
so, what

[00:28:55.92] spk_0:
what else are you not sharing with non profit radio listeners? Maybe a story maybe a case. Did you share a case?

[00:29:51.74] spk_1:
Sure. This this was so one of the things that I went through walked through in detail was um, so I talked a bit about research and I talked about different methods, one of which, you know, mapping and diagramming. Just like, let’s get on the same page, literally right. Like let’s, you know, take this intangible service of how we don’t know, provide meals to seniors and drop them off at their homes. And let’s put it on the paper so we can see like where things are misaligned. And so one of the core methods is the service blueprint, which I’ve mentioned. Um, but I took people through. It’s a little hard, I guess if it’s just audio, but I took people through, if you think about, have you ever been a new employee somewhere?

[00:30:01.14] spk_0:
uh not recently, not in the past 25 years, 23 years or so. But yes, I’ve been in the past. I was a new employee twice.

[00:30:07.04] spk_1:
So you’ve had the experience of like you start, you don’t know anything there.

[00:30:08.99] spk_0:
Where’s the bathroom

[00:30:09.99] spk_1:
need to do? Yeah. Where’s the

[00:30:11.29] spk_0:
bathroom, where

[00:30:12.61] spk_1:
mask

[00:30:13.38] spk_0:
use the copy

[00:30:14.23] spk_1:
machine. Exactly.

[00:30:16.64] spk_0:
What’s my code for the copy machine?

[00:31:41.04] spk_1:
So, you know, I took people through the experience because I was like, you know, I don’t know your your fundraisers if your program people of your executive directors, HR folks who knows. Right? And so this could work for all sorts of services. But we’ve all, I think most everybody has been an employee somewhere once. And so I took them through the example. And so service blueprint is like, if you think of a service, like a theater production, right? So you have on stage or the front stage is what the audience can see. And then backstage, right, there’s like people doing lighting, there’s people doing the music, there’s you know, directing whatever it is, costumes. And so the key part of this diagram is always thinking about what is front stage that other people can see and what’s backstage. And so I took people through these layers. There are there’s a physical evidence, right? So like if you’re a new employee, you have maybe you get an email, maybe you got a phone call from your like hiring manager, right? Like congratulations, We picked you like, here’s the offer letter, write the offer letter is its own piece of physical evidence, Its own sort of touch points is a term that we used to call it. And this could be other also things like if you, there’s a website to like enroll in your benefits, that sort of

[00:31:45.03] spk_0:
thing

[00:32:27.54] spk_1:
and sort of the next level or thinks that the as a new hire, right? Like I am enrolling in benefits. I am reading this email about what to do on my first day. You know, things like that on the other side of that are there was an employee internally who had to do something right? Like your manager had to send you that email about what to do on your first day or HR had to send you, here’s the link to the enrollment website for your benefits, things like that. There are also things that are sort of backstage, right? Like as a new hire, you’re like, oh great, I’ve got a new computer, it’s just there, right? You didn’t see somebody ordering that computer for

[00:32:29.99] spk_0:
you.

[00:33:37.74] spk_1:
So that’s also a thing that’s specific to you starting as a new employee, right? They didn’t need a computer if they weren’t hiring somebody. And so that’s specific to you. There are also support processes going on. So when you come right, you’re expecting, I will get paid every two weeks or whatever the period is that payroll processes a support process. So that goes on every two weeks like clockwork and as a new hire you would get folded into that of course you would be paid. But when you start doesn’t change that schedule, it doesn’t change how that process works. That process is just gonna run every two weeks, Right? And then there is a system. So maybe um for example there is an HR system, right? And that works together with with how payroll gets processed. So when you start, your information gets entered into the HR system as a new employee and that that feeds into payroll and and possibly other things. So kind of like that’s those are the layers of things. When I talk about the all of the layers that make up the end to end experience so that that service, it’s possible. Those are the kinds of the layers I’m talking about.

[00:33:52.99] spk_0:
These are all these are all included in the service blueprint.

[00:33:57.34] spk_1:
Exactly, exactly. And so there’s it I go through this in the slides which are in the collaborative notes and and people can certainly check those out and see that example.

[00:34:07.91] spk_0:
Where are those, where are those notes?

[00:37:40.33] spk_1:
Those notes if you attended? Um And D. C. They’re in socio under the session page, you know, So if you went to look up service design my service design session sort of you scroll towards the bottom underneath the description, there’s a link to the collaborative notes and I’ve got tons of resources in there too. Um I think another thing that I love to talk about if we’re good on time is making sure like there are a lot of ways in which I think in the past several years now, profit have gotten better about how do we incorporate our values into our day to day operations? Right. Like if we value inclusion, right, that’s not only about the program that we’re running externally in the community, but also like what does that mean in house? Right? Like how does that, what does that mean about how we treat our staff and treat each other? And so I think what the things that you’re doing in a design process, right? I think it’s always a friend and I were talking about this the other day, right? That there are a lot of accessibility resources for like accessibility outwards, right? But not maybe as many resources for accessibility in words for your staff. And so I think, you know, when you’re going through this design process, the point is, right, we’re not only thinking about whoever is receiving the service who may or may not be external to this organization, but also about what are the needs of the people who are actually like providing the service inside the organization. That could be things like training and and systems and equipment, right? But it could also be about what they need to be successful. And so some of the other things that I touched on um I didn’t have a chance to get in depth but included more resources on some of these topics. Um one of them was participatory design or co design. So there’s kind of like, there’s a spectrum of how much you involve people, right? There’s like, we’re not asking anybody, we’re just gonna create whatever we think is best. You know, there that’s sort of like the one end of the spectrum and the high end, right? You might even bring the community members on as sort of like project team members, right? You might compensate them for their time. They get to have a say in the decision making right? That’s like a really big in terms of shifting power, right? Having a say in the decision making is a really big piece of that, you know? And then they’re sort of like in between is we did some research, right? We got their input but maybe we didn’t, but we the internal people made all the decisions and then they’re sort of like somewhat more participatory, maybe they have even helped like co design pieces of it or gave us some ideas but they weren’t involved in the whole project or they didn’t really have a final say in the decision making right? These are different place points on that spectrum. And so, you know, there’s a lot of debate. There’s also like differences in how people label them as co design or participatory design. Um So some people are like, yeah, this is all just the same thing, right? The whole spectrum is the same thing, you know, and some people are like, no, these are very distinctive like points and we should be clear about them. Um, also talked about

[00:37:43.25] spk_0:
the finer points of arguments within the service design community,

[00:37:47.93] spk_1:
yeah. Within the design community,

[00:37:50.96] spk_0:
what’s

[00:37:51.39] spk_1:
co design, what’s

[00:37:52.43] spk_0:
participatory

[00:41:47.21] spk_1:
design? But I just say that so that when people are looking at the resources that they know that people will call it different things and that nobody agrees on what these are called. Um, so that’s not confusing. And I think the other things are around like in order to make things like accessible, right? Like that needs to be baked into the project from the beginning, both in parts of like how we’re going to think about the process, who involved in the process and it should be accessible both for participants, write your external audience, but also internally for the employees who are working, working at your organization. Um, and then the other thing I touched on was charming firm design. So trauma from designs kind of an emerging area of practice and it comes from trauma informed care and social work. So it’s sort of, I think people are beginning to recognize that, you know, obviously the organizations where you’re clearly working with people who have experienced trauma, right? Because you’re, I don’t know, maybe working with abuse survivors or veterans or things like that. But the, I think the point being is that there’s a lot more that goes on that’s unrecognized. And so sort of flipping the switch from assuming that people haven’t experienced trauma too, if we assume that people were working with most likely have experienced trauma, right? How do we design services or products or what have you, how do we provide care in a way that is going to take that into account and two sort of, you know, make make sure that we’re not re traumatizing people, make sure that we’re actually supporting and empowering those people. So that’s a lot around centers a lot around, you know, giving people choice, making sure that a space is safe for them both physically and emotionally, um, making sure that we’re doing what we can to sort of place the control back in their hands of people, you know, who’ve had that control taken away from them. And so a lot of those, those, um, a lot of that kind of comes out of things that work that has been done in social work, but I think it’s a really important thing to think about, especially for those of us in the, in the social impact sector, you know, and, and then I think the other big thing was like change management. So, you know, you talked about this right? Like how do you get people on board, how do you get the leadership on board? And I think that this is really lacking in a lot of service design resources because a lot of service deciders. So I wouldn’t say that service design is, is the most common in the United States, but I would say that probably most people who are working in service design in the United States, there are people who do this work in government. So the federal government in local and state governments, because you’re providing services to citizens, right? That’s a core part of what our government does, you know, and then there’s there’s some in like health care and and financial services and things that are kind of a little less simply web based um but it’s not super common and so the service designers who are working a lot of them are either at really large institutions or their external external agencies so they can design the thing, they can do the research, they can help involved and pull this design together, but then they’re usually handing off the implementation, but I’m going to guess for most of the listeners of non profit radio most attendees of ntC but that’s not the case, right? Like we are designing, you know, we’re improving the program and then we got to go implement

[00:41:53.06] spk_0:
it.

[00:42:46.00] spk_1:
Yeah, so really like building in that time for change management. So it’s like getting external feedback is not something your organization is used to doing right, Like that’s gonna be a change internally for how you and your colleagues are used to working, it might be a change for leadership, you might need to get by and for that. Um but also, you know, the the program itself, right? So there’s maybe a few people who are starting like starting something new, but a lot of us were trying to improve the existing programs and services and our existing operational functions and so there’s always that that change piece that you’re gonna have to build in that time for to just like let’s spend time on this, like let’s make sure that we have like people on board before we try to move forward. Otherwise, you know, as you pointed out, it’s not gonna be so successful

[00:42:52.00] spk_0:
Janice just to wrap up, explain that your company name shift in

[00:42:57.00] spk_1:
scaffold, what

[00:42:58.92] spk_0:
does that mean?

[00:44:15.09] spk_1:
Sure. So I like to think about a lot of the work that I do, but also a lot of the work that we do in the social impact sector general as sort of shifting the lens, shifting the narrative. Maybe we’re shifting power, maybe we’re shifting like who gets centered um in the decisions that are made and whose voices get heard and then scaffold so scaffolding in education and um so I also like used to be an instructional designer scaffolding in education is about when you’re teaching somebody something new, you want to make sure that you’re building on what they learned already, right? You’re building on their existing knowledge and then sort of you add a little bit of new stuff every time. And so I like to think of my work as partnering with people so that when I leave the engagement, right? So like, usually I work with people on a project basis or I do coaching. And so like after the end of our engagement, I don’t want people to be like, oh, like now we have to find somebody else to do that thing, right? I’m not you know, that’s not the point of the work I do. What I want to do is build people’s capacity to carry that forward themselves. So that’s why I named it shift and scaffold.

[00:44:24.29] spk_0:
All right, thank you, Janice, chan director shift in scaffold Janice, Thank you very much.

[00:44:26.29] spk_1:
Thanks so much for having me. tony It was great talking with you and uh I hope you are doing well and I’ll talk to you again later.

[00:44:37.79] spk_0:
Yeah, maybe next year’s in T. C. All right, thank you. Thanks for sharing Janice.

[00:44:39.36] spk_1:
Thank you. Take care.

[00:46:16.99] spk_0:
Next week. Woo! It is the 600th show, The 12th anniversary, the 12th Jubilee 600 Shows Next Week. That means my fabulous co host and our creative producer Claire Meyerhoff will be with me scott, Stein, you gotta have the live music, the live cheap red wine plus he’s gonna do a couple of other songs for us. Amy sample Ward, Gene Takagi, our sponsors are gonna chip in, It’s all on the 600th show next week. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O And by 4th dimension technologies I. T. And for in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott style. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.