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Nonprofit Radio for September 18, 2023: Donor Dominance


Ian MacQuillin: Donor Dominance

Donor-centric doesn’t mean donor dominant. Ian MacQuillin shares his research and thinking on donor power structures in fundraising. For instance, let’s work at the sector, organizational and individual levels, to dismantle patriarchal structures. Ian is director of the Rogare fundraising think tank.


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[00:00:38.40] spk_0:
Welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I am glad you’re with us. I’d be forced to endure the pain of black hairy tongue. If you made me speak the words you missed this week’s show. Associate producer, Kate. What’s coming up this week?

[00:01:10.26] spk_1:
Hey, tony, this week it’s donor dominance. Donor centric doesn’t mean donor dominant. Ian mcquillan shares his research and thinking on donor power structures in fundraising. For instance, let’s work at the sector, organizational and individual levels to dismantle patriarchal structures. Ian is director of the Rore fundraising think tank on Tony’s take two

[00:01:12.74] spk_0:
fourth quarter approach

[00:01:45.45] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor Boxx, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraiser CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is donor dominance.

[00:02:28.32] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to welcome Ian mcquillan to nonprofit radio. He is director of the international fundraising think tank. Rore Rore aims to help fundraisers better use theory and evidence by translating academic ideas into professional practice and building fundraising’s knowledge base. Ian is recognized as a leading thinker on fundraising ethics. He’s at Ian mcquillan and the think tank, which he founded in 2014 is at Rore dot net from Portsmouth England, Ian. Welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:32.00] spk_2:
Thank you very much for having me, um tony and the way you spelled out and read out a little bio biography about what Roa does. It makes me think maybe I need to change it and make it a bit punchier.

[00:02:42.57] spk_0:
Why I think it’s fine. Uh You, you think it’s why punch you, you think it sounds dull and boring it,

[00:02:47.64] spk_2:
get it, get, it, gets it across, but maybe we’ve had it for a while. Maybe it’s time to refresh the brand of the mission of it.

[00:04:14.95] spk_0:
Oh, all right. Well, brand refreshing. All right. I, I see. But I think, I think folks understand and they’ll understand better how you’re, you’re translating uh academia, academic thinking into professional practice as we uh have our discussion about uh donor dominance and uh donor power structures and how these impact fundraisers, how these impact, impact uh individual uh nonprofits, how they impact the sector wide. Um And what individuals, nonprofits and the sector can do to maybe may uh fight back. I don’t know, maybe that’s maybe fights. I, I hate to be in a uh like sound like an a AAA belligerent American. Everything’s a fight and everything is a competition but uh how we can um manage our donors so that uh these power structures maybe are, are become a more, a more level field for, for, for everyone, for the donors as well as for the, the fundraisers, the sectors of the sector and the uh the individual nonprofit. So I’m, I’m, I’m looking forward to a conversation about donor dominance. What I I what, what got you into this? Uh I know there were some incidents that brought you to the work, maybe uh maybe reveal some of those before we get into uh the substance and, and how it appears, it itself how it shows itself.

[00:07:36.26] spk_2:
Well, well, the one that really brought us to the idea of donor dominance, which is not a phrase that we have come up with donor dominance was used in an academic article way back in the early August in 2003. Uh And it, it is describing an imbalance of power where the donor can exhibit controlling behavior and that can lead to compromising the mission of an organization or its ability to serve its beneficiaries. So most fundraisers will be aware of the idea of mission creep where they maybe the donor tries to exert an, an influence over, over the mission to maybe follow the donor’s agenda or the ends or things that they want to do. So the idea that donors will have and can might have. This power is not new or unusual to fundraisers. And if you kind of just try and think about it from first principles, all relationships can be analyzed and thought of in some term of power differential or power dynamic. You know, when you think of a customer and a retailer, there’s a power dynamic there and one has more power than the other and sometimes that power shifts. So when it comes to charities and their fundraisers, who are their agents asking donors for money, the donor has something the charity wants, which is their wealth, their philanthropy, maybe their influence, uh all sorts of ways that they can support, not just money, um time and treasure and influence as well. And the donor doesn’t have to give that the donor can withhold that. So there’s that power imbalance already. The donor has some something that the charity wants and they have to ask for it and be nice to get it. So there’s not saying that it inevitably leads to any abuse of power, but there is the potential for the abuse of power. You can see that it is just there. Now people in all walks of life behave abominably all the time. People just behave badly. You see it everywhere in all walks of life, people are abusive to other people, they talk down to ST to staff, to people they believe are be beneath the they’re not nice to their friends and relatives. Um It’s not saying that all people don’t behave well. There are lots of saints, there are lots of angels, there are lots of people that don’t behave well. And I think it’s kind of slightly naive to expect that just because somebody is a donor and they’re doing a good thing for society and they’re expressing their philanthropy, that automatically means they will also be saints in the behavior in all of life. So there is, you can see whether donor dominance and bad behavior by donors actually does come to pass. It’s obvious that there is a potential for it. And the thing that really got us at RAA to think about the donor dominance issues was a case uh uh in the United Kingdom. Uh in 2018, I don’t know if you’re familiar or your readers will be listeners will be familiar with this. It was called the President’s Club dinner. And the President’s Club was this annual fund raising dinner where lots of the great and the good would get together for a big uh uh meal in a livery hall in London. And they would spend lots of money, pitch or auctions, raise loads. I mean, a hell of a lot of money at that.

[00:07:46.28] spk_0:
All of the great and good, mainly,

[00:09:34.03] spk_2:
mainly all men and you’ll see why you the bit that I’m coming to, which is completely, completely shocking that I’m coming to around this, um, they would then, like, grant that out to lots of charities. Now, a journalist for the Financial Times went undercover with the event company that was, um, providing the event, we staff for that event and the women were given a dress code which included the color and size of their underwear or a fundraising event. And of course she wrote and, you know, they were being, yeah. Yeah, they were being improperly touched. They were being, you know, slapped, they were using sexist misogynist language against them. Uh And this all came out in a complete scandal. The President’s Club, you know, lots of charities returned donations, refused donations. But it got us to thinking about why did no one know this was going on anyway, people must have been turning a blind eye to this practice. You know, it can’t have been that no one knew it was happening until a journalist went in and, and, you know, worked it out. What was going on. Why were, were people willingly turning a blind eye because they were getting money? Were they allowing their potential donors or arm’s length one removed because they were given to the residents club who were then given to the charity? But they were somehow facilitating um enabling this kind of behavior. And our chair is a uh a is the name I’m sure will be familiar to many uh us fundraisers, Heather Hill and this kind of relationship, um, abuse donor dominance was the thing that was really interesting. Her and she said to us, well, we, we’ve gotta, we’ve gotta look at this in more depth about the same time we were doing that. The chronic of, of philanthropy, uh, had also done its survey about, um, sexual abuse of female fundraisers and uncovered, I think the statistic was something like 25%. It may have been more, more than 75%. But, but a lot, you know, a significant number of female fundraisers that suffered sexual abuse and sexual harassment and a lot of that was apprehensive donors. So 20

[00:10:01.58] spk_0:
percent is, is interesting. II, I would, I would think that’s actually low if, if, if that’s the number the chronicle reported, I I suspect that there’s some, there’s some women who didn’t want to

[00:10:07.44] spk_2:
report it may have been higher. I may have got the 25% with the people that didn’t report it. So

[00:10:12.97] spk_0:
75 70 but

[00:10:22.72] spk_2:
it was a number that was causing concern because 25% is, you know, you say it’s probably low, but that’s, that’s a high number and even even 25. Yeah. And so you can, it was clear that there are some issues that needed to be dealt with and that’s what got us into looking at this issue of power imbalances donor dominance and are the relationships that we have with our donors or rather the the relationships they have with us always the appropriate ones and carried out appropriately.

[00:11:37.88] spk_0:
And you mentioned a few symptoms of this, uh, donors insisting on, uh, you called it mission creep, you know, insisting maybe on a new program. Uh I’ve seen it, uh, I, I saw it, I think the most extreme I’ve seen just anecdotally is uh, uh an all boys, uh, a Catholic school that was offered a very large gift to start admitting uh girls and, uh, and they acceded to that and I, I was not working with them. I was just aware of what was happening. They were not a client of mine. I had no relationship with them uh formally uh but they acceded to that. And II, I thought that was disappointing because it was not what their, what their mission was. But um that’s, that seems extreme. Uh So how in whatever to not

[00:11:38.70] spk_2:
necessarily extreme but not necessarily atypical. So as part of the work we did on this, we, we actually did

[00:11:43.75] spk_0:
it may, it may not be atypical, but it seems extreme to me that you’d go from all boys to, to on the strength

[00:11:51.94] spk_2:
of response from the extreme

[00:12:02.34] spk_0:
response from the charity. Yeah, extreme request on the part of the donor. I see what you, what your perspective. Yeah. So, uh well, go ahead. You, you finished your point. Well, we, we,

[00:15:26.84] spk_2:
we as part of the, the uh project to look at this, we did do a survey amongst fundraisers. Now, this was a self selecting survey. So we said, if you’ve experienced any form of what you might perceive to be down in dominance, please come and tell us how you perceived it. And even if you haven’t do come and tell us because negative results are still results. So it’s self selecting, it’s not meant to be a representative sample. I think something like about 80% or so of our respondents had experienced something like this. That doesn’t mean 80% of fundraisers have all experienced that because it’s not a representative sample that it did give us an idea of the types of issues that people were encountering. So what we identified, you can have dominance in, in three ways. It’s either in direction. So that’s over the governance, the policy or the administration of the charity. So that’s where you get the mission creep from where donors are trying to influence that also over the relationships. Uh So that’s where the because donors are often in close proximity, particularly with fundraising in the relationship. There’s, there’s the way to influence the types of relationships. So that’s where we get the risk of sexual impropriety coming. But also there’s been examples, we’ve had cases reported to us where donors have tried to have people fired or removed because they didn’t like their sexual orientation or something like that. So it’s about hiring and firing who they’re going to work with. Um And then you’ve got dominance in kind of behavior. So this is kind of the expectation that they want of the treatment they’re gonna get, um having, getting, trying, trying to get undue public influence and really trying to get, uh get benefits from their relationships with charities that they’re not entitled to. And then we ask the people responding to give us examples of what they’ve done. So I’ve, I’ve just got saved a few from the research that we did to, to share with you the kind of things that the people were saying to us. So one said that the board member um and donor had a check ready to write. And he looked at me and said, what will, will this get me with you? Uh There’s one here where it says that a donor said that he would make a major gift if we violated tax law. I acknowledge the gift at a higher level. So this is asking the charity to be complicit in illegal activity. Another one said that, you know, if they used their consulting firm, they could expect a nice donations. That’s, that’s corruption, that’s bribery. You know that I’m sure there are, there are, there are laws against, against that isn’t another one? Uh AAA board member, they said was demanding use the charity resources for his own events. You know, this is a he is, is he not her? It’s his own event. Uh They were badged at supporting the charity but didn’t result in any income from the charity. And he implied that we should carry on doing this if we, if we wanted his continued support, and I’ll just tell you one more, um, which related to that point that I made about, um, relationships, um, and strad straddles with the direction of, uh, of, of, of mission creep as well. And one fundraiser reported to us that as they were trying to update their history of the charity and the work they did to a more progressive lens of history. A donor said that we would lose their support if we were at all explicitly non negative. So not just positive, but even if they were neutral about LGBT Q I plus issues and race. Um and the staff had acquiesced in that up to years for years, up until the fundraiser said that they’d had enough and left the charity.

[00:16:11.01] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Donor box quote. We’ve seen incredible results with Donor box. In the last year. We’ve boosted our donations by 70% and launched new programs in literacy, health, child care and tailoring for our girls. That’s Jennings W founder and executive director of Uganda 10 18. If you’re looking for a fast flexible and donor friendly fundraising platform for your organization, check out donor Boxx, donor Boxx dot org. Now back to donor dominance.

[00:17:23.50] spk_0:
I understand, not, not scientific but valuable examination of the, the, the breath and the, and the different, the different forms, the uh the, these, these power structures, this, this unequal power can uh can take, yeah, I have my own uh anecdote uh, years ago when I was a fundraiser, there was a woman who was harassed by a much older man and uh the, the nonprofit response was just to change the relationship to, to have to have a different fundraiser, uh work with that, that man from, from then on. Uh, but there were still large events where the, where the that donor and that and that previous fundraiser were were together because that’s the nature of large events and it, it was not a, it was not an adequate solution. Um And, and the, the idea of confronting the donor was dismissed, it, it just like it was, it wasn’t a possibility that was not, that was not gonna be a way that we were gonna deal with this to confront the donor and, and explicitly have him uh cease his a abusive behavior. We weren’t gonna do that. Um

[00:18:36.17] spk_2:
And it’s interesting to think why charities won’t do that because yes, they want the donor’s money and they need the donor’s money to help their beneficiaries, but they do have a duty of care for their employees to protect, not just their physical well-being, but their mental well-being as well. Um And it, it does seem to me a little bit that fundraisers are the forgotten stakeholders in all this. And what you said is such a common complaint of so many women, female fundraisers that many have got experiences very similar to the ones that you have just described in your own dot There. But the response is always seem to be left up to individual charities to come up with a response. And if an individual charity does decide to stop working with a donor, that donor just takes their behavior elsewhere, um, and carries it on at a different charity and some other poor fundraiser is now um uh susceptible to that or the, I don’t know if it’s worse, but it’s equally bad. They kick the fundraiser at the charity sideways and bring someone else and neither that person gets um more discriminatory behavior, but those things aren’t addressing a structural solution, which is what we need around this and the code of conduct, which is what you originally approached me about. Maybe, maybe one way to be able to do that, right?

[00:19:05.27] spk_0:
And we will get to the, the, the possibility of a donor code of conduct. But Rore is, is looking at this at, at uh on three different levels. Uh the sector, the nonprofits, the organizations and the individuals. Yeah, let, let’s, let’s flush out some about what uh what the sector could. Is it, OK if we start with the sector, uh it, it, it, it

[00:19:08.25] spk_2:
is. So

[00:19:09.30] spk_0:
others try to start broad and, and become uh and finish with the, with the individuals.

[00:21:28.46] spk_2:
Yeah. So we’ve, we’re doing this So we’re also trying to look at gender issues in fundraising and look at ways um that we can dismantle Patria patriarchal structures in the fundraising profession. Because uh I think one is refusing to acknowledge reality. If you just, one just says, ah, there’s no patriarchy, everything’s equal, everything’s and everything is fine. It is, they, they exist. And the thing what, what, what Becky Slack, one of our project team on this made the point is that the patriarchy is bad for a lot of men as well. It’s a system that is unjust and unfair and it’s mainly unjust and unfair to women. It’s intersectional, it’s unjust and unfair to women of different demographics like people of color. But there are also a lot of men that it doesn’t serve very well. Um because they’re not, you know, if you’re in a situation where you’re supposed to be negotiating your own salary, there are lots of men like me who do very, very badly about trying to negotiate my salary against the, you know, walk straight in, sits down and buttons his coat leans back and like they give him whatever he wants. I would never get back. Um So, so it’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s a structural problem and yet what it seemed to us when we were looking at this is that a lot of the ways people try to address that is by thinking that the problem is just one of human agency that for example, if the problem is about salary bands and negotiating salaries and, and women are disadvantaged in that, then we give women better training in how to negotiate a better salary. And that’s, that’s not a sustainable solution because we do it for every um every new generation of, of female leaders that are coming in or fundraisers to, to negotiate their own salaries. Some people just still won’t be very good at it and will still be disadvantaged and you’re leaving the unjust discriminatory structures in impact. So what we are saying is rather than trying to change people’s behavior in a broken system, let’s just to fix the, try to fix the system. So you’re

[00:21:29.20] spk_0:
referring to your lean in versus lean

[00:23:15.41] spk_2:
out. Yeah, the lean. So, yeah, so the, the approach is to try to help individuals um uh negotiate, navigate the situation they find and lean out is an approach where we try and we said dismantling, we, we, we personally didn’t say smash the patriarchy because when you take a wrecking ball or something, you just have a part of, you know, rubble on the ground. So we want to dismantle it, we want to take it apart bit by bit, you know, with a Wrench and Spanner and then put together all the bits that we’ve taken down in a more just and equitable manner that benefits. So, uh and so at the structural level, what way we, we’re thinking that what can we do, we can, it’s a structural solution. And at the structural level, at the sector level, we’ve got professional bodies, we’ve got um uh that can all play their role in changing those things. So one of the things we suggested that we should have would be um maybe donor code of conduct which could be developed by and tested by professional institutes by talking to their organizations and their members. Then at the organizational level, organizations can implement donor codes of conduct as a way of making it clear the standards of behavior they expect from donors. But also sending a message to their fundraisers that we’ve got your back. We’re gonna look after you and so have all the other charities in, in, in the sector that we work in. So we’ve all signed up to this. It’s a structural approach that we, we, we, we are, we’ve signed up to it. Don’t worry that we’re gonna kick this abusive donor away from our charging and they’re just gonna take their behavior to, to, to, to another charity. Yeah, let it perpetuate. And then at the individual level is the responsibility of everyone, especially men to see what’s going on. Take responsibility for enacting change. That’s when your individual agency comes in. But hopefully we’re doing your acting individual agency in a change system because I think if you just like keep exhorting people to change their behavior, but you leave the, the underlying context exactly as it is. I think we’re kind of wishing against hope that we will make substantial change.

[00:23:44.20] spk_0:
Rore proposed a donor code of conduct. Uh It’s, it’s on your, it’s on your site at Rore dot net and it was not too well received in the US. No,

[00:23:56.19] spk_2:
there was a lot of pushback from that. Um I mean, they, they did have some fans but there was a, there was a lot of pushback against it which slightly surprised me. Um Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised, but

[00:24:08.23] spk_0:
I’m surprised, I’m surprised that you were surprised.

[00:24:11.08] spk_2:
Yes. Um There was less pushback on this side of the Atlantic about there was some but, but there, there, there was less and I think it’s interesting to try and unpick why that? Let’s

[00:25:33.90] spk_0:
OK. Let’s, let’s uh tick off a couple of the, the uh the elements of, of the, the rore proposed donor code of conduct just so folks understand what we’re talking about. Uh So, uh and then, and then we’ll, we’ll, we’ll talk about the reaction here here in the States. So, uh num number one, there’s, there’s six, there’s six principles. Um I’m making a voluntary donation to a nonprofit, not buying a product or service. I therefore understand that fundraisers are not selling me a product or service that the professional relationship between us is therefore not a customer sales relationship. Uh I will treat fundraising staff as knowledgeable professionals, always accord them the professional respect. They deserve. I will never discriminate against or harass in any way, fundraising professionals or other charity staff based on any of the protected classes or characteristics. Uh I recognize I have a considerable potential power in the relationship. Uh Therefore promise not to exploit that power for personal gain. Uh I may as well read the other two will not put conditions on my donation for the personal benefit of myself, my family or my friends and I will not use my power as a donor to divert the nonprofit or uh from its mission. Uh uh a few of those which, which we talked about. And uh

[00:25:43.96] spk_2:
they all seem perfectly reasonable to me.

[00:26:19.20] spk_0:
I know, I know you do. Well, they seem perfectly reasonable to me. I think they seem perfectly reasonable to everybody. II I, however, the idea in the states of asking a donor to, to sign this because that’s, that’s what you ask you ask them to sign up to this code of conduct that uh I’m not surprised that that the sector and that individual charities and then even individual fundraisers would be uh I’m not surprised that they would object to, to putting this before, before donors.

[00:26:35.54] spk_2:
Well, I think we’re not asking people to literally sign it. Maybe this was a lost in translation thing, but by signing up to something, you know, it’s like we will need to sign up to this, this set of principles to, but it’s like sign up to means like buying into. So it’s the idea we want donors to buy into this set of principles about behavior. But I

[00:26:40.50] spk_0:
still have, I still have to put it in front of the donor. They have to, they have to,

[00:27:40.81] spk_2:
they don’t. So at no point, were we ever saying you have to give this to a donor? You have to give it to them. So, one of the people said, how could I start a relationship by presenting this to them? Well, you wouldn’t, would you, obviously you wouldn’t do that. That’s not what you, how you would start a relationship when you go on a first date with somebody you don’t start with. If we get married, here’s the pre nap I want, you know, you don’t, you don’t do that. Fundraisers are storytellers, they’re expert relationship builders. What you do is you build a relationship and at the appropriate juncture in that relationship as you get towards something. If the donor is a very well behaved donor, you can introduce them to this and say, what do you think of this? This is what we use to protect our fundraisers. You know, how do you think about, about this? I’m sure you’ve got no problem. You know, buying into, I won’t say sign up, buying into these, these printers. Yeah, of course. They, if somebody is, for example, maybe, um exhibiting the idea of Mission Creek, the fundraiser has got a set of six principles with the authority and already the backing of the charity, knowing the charity that can back them, can say to the, to, to this potential donor. Well, well, actually, we would not, um, permit that. That’s not how we would want to because we have a code of conduct that we like our donors to buy into. Would you like me to show it to you now? So you can see what’s expected of you and

[00:28:10.44] spk_0:
there’s the hard part, ok? There’s the, there’s the spot what’s expected of you and, and, and I know

[00:28:32.69] spk_2:
that is presenting a set of principles that it is reasonable for us to expect donors to adhere to. So for example, don’t discriminate against fundraisers on basis of their sex, gender and sexual orientation.

[00:28:38.37] spk_0:
I agree that that’s reasonable

[00:29:59.64] spk_2:
and they do. So at the moment, we know that fundraiser that that donors are doing this, we know something needs to be done to stop them doing it. We can’t, you know, we can’t just put out wish, you know, wishes into the air and, and thoughts and prayers and hope it’s gonna finish. We need to do something to fix this. And this was the first iteration of a set of principles that we think are fair for any right thinking donor to want to buy into and say, yeah, of course, I’ll treat you with respect. Absolutely. I won’t discriminate and the sense that a fundraiser would be scared to in the right way. Using their skill as a storyteller and relationship builder to introduce this. Struck me as a little strange. It struck me that what was being said was not so much. I couldn’t possibly find a way to talk to a donor about these difficult issues. I think it was pretty. It was also a sense that I don’t want to, I don’t think we should do. So, one person that said we shouldn’t have to do this. If they don’t want to work with us, then just tell them to take their money elsewhere. But that doesn’t affect the fix the problem because they take their abusive behavior to someone else and it’s somebody else’s problem. Have a responsibility in this sector, every single one of us to try and confront these issues and make them better and look after our fundraisers. And none of this is anti donors. Donors are some of the most wonderful people on the planet who use their philanthropy to make the world a better place. Some of them probably a small number abuse that power and while they might be making the world a better place, generally on a large scale and a very small part of the world, they’re making some people very miserable.

[00:31:13.28] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kela increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kila. The fundraisers. Crm maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser CRM goes beyond the data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit. Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals. Like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:32:46.88] spk_0:
Thank you, Kate. The fourth quarter is coming mid September right now. The all important fourth quarter, I don’t have to remind you, but I do need to send you my good wishes. Uh I’m, I’m sure your fourth quarter plans are well set, probably 90% set. I just hope that you have a successful fourth quarter. I hope, you know what metrics to pay attention to so that, you know how well you’re doing week after week. I know I there was one nonprofit I worked with that had daily goals for some key days too. Uh I, I think that’s an outlier but uh certainly weekly production goals in the fourth quarter and those, those are common. So, uh, try not to get too, um, worked up. I don’t know, maybe this is, are these platitudes? I hope not. I just hope you keep things in perspective, do the very best you can and, and that’s all you can do for the all important fourth quarter. So you have my good wishes for what I know is uh very important. Three months for fundraising, my good wishes. And that is Tony’s take two Kate.

[00:32:48.59] spk_1:
We’ve got, but loads more time. Let’s go back to donor dominance with Ian mcquillan.

[00:32:58.55] spk_0:
I agree with all that.

[00:33:26.81] spk_2:
So, how, how would you, maybe I could ask you if, if you worked at a charity and the charity had, this is what we have a, I mean, instead of a code of conduct, you could call it a covenant, a covenant with our donors if you wanted to change the word around something else to make it sound more, um, more equal, more, more engaging. But, but you’re an expert fundraiser and storyteller. How would you introduce it? How would you, none of it is to say, please read this before we go on. But you know that there are a set of expected behavioral standards that you want all of your donors. How would you introduce it?

[00:33:57.90] spk_0:
Yeah. Uh, in fairness. Yeah, I have probably, uh, 100.5 or 100. Yeah. Uh, uh, you know, relationships on and off with, with a bunch of different, on behalf of a bunch of different, uh, nonprofit clients. Um,

[00:34:37.61] spk_2:
and that, of course, is assuming that in all of those relationships you even need to, it may just be enough to have that pinned up on the charity’s website for people to look at. I mean, just putting it out there normalizing it. And the other thing about having something like this, it just normalizes the accepted standards of behavior. You see, you see customer codes of conduct everywhere. We will not tolerate, you know, in in in the commercial world. The the consumer is always right, the customer is king and yet while the customer may be king, there are still notices up in train stations and service places everywhere and restaurants and we will not tolerate abuse of our staff. You know, they they don’t co commercial organizations have no problem pinning up a notice that says while you may be king and we will do everything we possibly can to make your stay your service your product fantastic. And we’ll do everything you want. We still won’t tolerate you abusing our staff. They have no problem with it. Yeah.

[00:38:15.49] spk_0:
All right. But I don’t want to back down from your, your, your first proposition to me. You know, how would I raise it with someone versus pointing it to, to, uh, pointing someone to a, uh, a web page and saying, you know, when, when you get a chance to take a look at this. But uh so I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna back off the, the original hypothetical. Um I was taught in law school never fight the hypothetical. So iii I try to stay true to that as difficult as it, uh challenging as it sometimes is. Um Yeah, I would, uh you know, well, most of the people I work with are in their seventies, eighties and nineties because I, I work in Planned Giving. Uh, but the, the anecdote that I told earlier about the, the, uh, the abusive behavior with the very much older man, he was, he was in his seventies or eighties and the fundraiser was in her thirties probably at the time. Uh, so I’m not gonna, uh, get off the hook by saying, oh, older folks never do this because I, I have a personal example of one who did, um, I would, uh, I would, I would bring it as, as something that the, the organization wants, wants this to be, uh, a mutually beneficial and, and, and satisfying relationship and, and there have been times when it, it hasn’t been that way for the, for the fundraisers. And so this organization is, is trying to protect its fundraisers. Um, at the same time that we’re protecting your interests as, as a donor that we’re, we’re always going to use your gift in the way you want it to be used and that we’re always going to, um, treat you with respect and not, not treat you as a, as a cash machine. Uh So, you know, so mutually, there’s, there’s respect and, uh, and, and expected, uh, you know, expected behaviors. That’s not such a great word. I wouldn’t use that in a conversation. But, uh, ee expect there are expectations on, on both sides and, and so we’re, we’re to protect the fundraisers and, and protect the organization as, as well as the folks who do the work that I do. Um, we have this, we have this sheet of, uh, sort of mutual expectations and, and where I, I’d like you to, I’d like you to take a look, take a look, see what you think when I would sit there in front of them and, um, and let them, let them think through it and then see what, and then react to, to their reactions, which I think in 90 99% of cases would be. I think this is, I think this is fine and there might be a, a few within that 99% who say, I applaud what the organization is doing, that would be less than 99. But there might be like 15% or so might say I applaud what the organization is doing. So that’s, that’s, I think that’s how I would, I think that’s how you are.

[00:39:31.23] spk_2:
So that’s how we envisage this. We envisage this as being something that set one of those structural changes in motion that then people could say, well, this is good fundraisers. I’ll, I’ll work out how I can build this into my relationships in the most appropriate way, you know, I can like you have just done so as you said, it’s mutual. Um, but all of our duties to donors are all very well codified in, in the donor bill of rights and, and various codes of practice, they’re already well set out what they are. But as it’s a, as it’s a two way exchange, we have some other juices that are commenting on donors to fundraisers, just like, like you said, but they’ve never been codified before. Um, and so one of the things that is, you know, when a number of people have tried to come up with fundraiser, bill, bills of rights, um, and recently I think, um, it was um Jennifer T Holmes and Amelia Gaza in Chicago also did one and people don’t have seem to have the same level of opposition to the fundraiser bill of rights. They did to the donor code of conduct. But if you think about it, they’re just, they’re just, they’re just, they’re two

[00:39:36.20] spk_0:
sides of the same images.

[00:40:14.47] spk_2:
So in, in Jennifer and Amelia’s um uh bill of Rights, it says fundraisers have the right to stop working with the donor based on a donor’s behavior towards their gender. Sexual orientation is very similar to the one that we’ve got in the code of conduct, except rather than saying fundraisers have a right to stop working says I will have a donor will not treat them that way. And then in the um uh as, as what they say um in elaborating upon that, um Amelia and Jennifer say that it’s up to the charity to protect the fundraiser and not work with that donor. So, because rights and duties are correlative. So if have a right not to be subject to sexual, um to, to, to harassment and discrimination based on their protected characteristic. That means someone has a duty not to treat them that way. And one of the people whose duty is not to treat them that way are donors. Absolutely logical.

[00:42:13.81] spk_0:
Very cogent, very cogent, logical explanation. Uh Absolutely. It’s, it’s just, it’s the, uh, it’s, it’s the, it’s the execution that, that varies with the fundraiser bill of rights. The fundraiser has, has the explicit right to, to uh execute uh to, to uh take advantage of, to his or her or, or their right. When, when there’s a, when there’s a, someone crosses the line, I, I had to say, say a violation of the bill, you know, when there’s a, when there’s something inappropriate that violates the bill versus an expectation that, that, that the donor, I it, it’s, it’s, it’s the, the reason, the reason us fundraisers and, and the sector push back is because it’s, it’s, it’s where the action comes from. The fundraisers are happy to um exploit their, their rights but not happy to ask donors to uh control themselves. It’s, it’s the, it’s the executing, it’s the executing party. Look, you know, we, we put our head in the sand. You, the, I would, I, you know what, in 10 years, I bet, I bet, I bet the, the donor code of conduct will be pretty widespread. You, you can, you, you can count on Americans to, to do the right thing when, when they’ve exhausted like all the other, all the other possibilities. Uh So you’re ahead of your time and, and you’re admirable.

[00:42:17.20] spk_2:
That’s not,

[00:42:27.10] spk_0:
I don’t mean that to say you’re naive, you’re, it’s admirable. Um You know, the civil rights was a, was the movement was ahead of its time. Um, etcetera. So,

[00:43:12.08] spk_2:
well, that’s kind of you to say thank you. And I, I think one of the things that you said about when you, when in the most appropriate way you present this as you said to your donors and most of them will go. I I’ve got no problem with that because most of them will be decent human beings and most many of them will say, well, I applaud you for doing that. Some of them might go. What do you really need this? Are you me that some people treat fundraisers that way? Well, I I’m sorry to say, yeah, that that does does happen really. And then when you do that, maybe we’re raising awareness in the philanthropy and donor community about the way some and they may not be aware of this issue. And the next time that they are out with in their fellow, you know, and somebody says, oh yeah, I was talking to a very, you know, this little fundraiser and I gave her a little slap and do you know what I I you really should not be doing that. It just allows, you know, the conversation to come out in different ways and to normalize standards of behavior that really ought to be normalized already. We shouldn’t have to be asking for this.

[00:43:47.02] spk_0:
I agree. I agree. Um, and, and all right, so that, um, so that moves us to, uh, let, let’s, uh, let, let’s look a little broader to, to what the, uh, what the sector can be doing in terms of awareness, consciousness raising uh training, right? Let, let, let’s, so let’s talk about the sector, the, the nonprofits and the, and the individuals a little more, just a little bit more formally, a little more structured. What do, what do you see as the the sector responsibilities?

[00:45:35.31] spk_2:
I think. Um So the first thing to do is to acknowledge that this is an issue. So it’s like having a policy statement and, and nothing will change unless people acknowledge that there is an issue that needs to be changed and we need to change it. So I understand now I wasn’t quite so prepared, but I understand why people will be pushing back against this. But I think some of the pushback against it is a straw man argument. Some of it I think is misunderstanding what it’s supposed to be and likely picking up on things that could be knocked back because it didn’t sit well with the way that in a way um you know, we lionize donors are probably a little bit too much and philanthropists, you know, by, by treating them as the heroes of their own story. And because of you and you know, we’ve gone with this donor centric approach, I understand why people from that position may have pushed back against this. So first of all the sector bodies and so a FP charter initi of fundraising in the UK, they can take a stand on this, they can more, more than they’ve been doing just by, for example, running the. Um so FP has done loads of great work in running the surveys and having, you know, toolkits for women um to be uh to protect themselves to negotiate salaries or that leaning approach is still valid, but we need to lean out approach to complement it and change the structure. So the sector has to have, secondly, it needs to recognize as an issue and develop the will amongst fundraisers to say we want to change things and

[00:46:00.00] spk_0:
that applies. Let, let me just add uh here in the states that applies to all the state organizations too. Every state has a, has AAA uh an organization of nonprofits, uh North Carolina Council on nonprofits, for instance, where I am. Um So it’s not only at the national level, just make that point, there’s also state uh state work to state organizations that uh need to buy in. So

[00:48:24.67] spk_2:
it’s got to be so for, for the organizations, they’ve got to make it easy for fundraisers to report issues. They’ve got to have proper complaints and whistleblowing procedures in place. They’ve got to have hr policies, they’re gonna let fundraisers know that they will be protected. So, not just if a fundraiser makes a complaint about a donor, they’ll just be kicked sideways. Um, and then, you know, and the sexual bodies can actually support the individual organizations to do that by producing, um, policies and proform codes of conduct and hr policies that they can take off the shelf and adapt just in the same way that now lots of those organizations produce guidance on gifting ethical gift acceptance and refusal policies. But you can just take the 10 point thing, we will not accept a if this, if this, you know, and adapt it to your, they can do all the things like that, that are gonna just make it easy and normalize the idea that for some donors in some circumstances, this is a really serious issue in the abuse of the relationship that result and we’re not going to tolerate it and we will, we will do something about it. And so those three levels that we worked out sex, organizational and individual, it’s not like you do one and then progress to the other. So it’s not like a hierarchy. It’s, it’s more like uh for any doctor who fans out there doctor who once said in a famous episode, it’s time is not linear. It’s more wily wobbly, timey wy. And this is a wily wobbly timey wy thing. Some individual does something at the individual level and they may be affecting something that, you know, a big campaign done by the A FP because the A FP is run by individuals after all. And so everybody that does something in affects these interactions and change in the structure at all of these different levels. But this is, I will stress, this is a structural issue, not, not just a donor dominance thing and the, and the, and the power and potential power abuses, but the patriarchal issues as well. And I, and I’m not conflating one to the other because I know of many female donors um cases where it’s been female donors that have been abusing the power dynamics and have been mission creeping and putting demands on who they would want to work with. So it’s not to conflate those um those two issues, but both of them are structural problems. And so we need to change the structure of the profession and the organizations are the best place to change the entire structure of the profession, other other sector bodies. So that’s where I think this starts.

[00:48:51.16] spk_0:
Know what’s interesting the just the, the, the relative proportions, you know, we we we’re talking about 25% of fundraisers. Let’s just use that 25% number. I

[00:48:57.05] spk_2:
really wish I check that figure before I came on here. Now somebody is screaming at the radio saying you’ve got it wrong. So I’m sorry if I’ve got it wrong. But as we agreed to the start, it’s a significant number and it’s too much and any number is too much.

[00:49:43.06] spk_0:
And yet the percentage of donors who are engaging in this, these negative behaviors is probably much, much lower. But that’s just a reflection of, um, maybe 5% of donors may maybe even lower. But that, that’s just a reflection of the fact that there are so many more donors than there are than there are charities and fundraisers. There are tens of millions of donors and only a million and a half or so organizations and a uh uh and, and I don’t know how many fundraisers, but uh there are a lot more donors out there. So just a small percentage of bad, bad acting donors. I don’t think

[00:49:46.09] spk_2:
it is a small, you

[00:49:47.19] spk_0:
think you don’t think it’s small? And the

[00:51:56.80] spk_2:
reason is, is that when we did our survey, we found forms of donor dominance at all levels. So community fundraising, corporate fundraising, direct marketing, all of it was, there was some kind and it’s so we’re not just talking about large scale um discrimination by a major philanthropist. There are, there are, there are, you know, far fewer major philanthropists than there are charities that want their money. So I’ll give you, I’ll just give you an example. Um, an anecdote from my wife’s uh one of my wife, my wife is a fundraiser and she’s worked on a number of charity charities in the UK, now, author of development. And when she was working at a medical research charity, they were doing some going round and dropping clothes bags in letter boxes and saying, you know, we’ll have a collection, fill it up with second with your unwanted clothes. And somebody rang up, um, the charity and one of Sarah’s team took the call and this angry abusive person said next time one of your people comes through and puts this through the letterbox. I’m gonna slam the letterbox down on them and break their fingers and spoke in a way that the, the, the, the woman who took the call was very, very upset about it. Um And there are those little, you know, I don’t want to call that a microaggression that was more than a microaggression. There are, there are, there are behaviors like that. It’s not just about discriminating against a protected characteristic. It’s the way people abuse charity staff in some ways, the way they exert power, the way they have an expectation. Like I was reading out about the undue in the unit benefits. A lot of those examples I read out earlier were from major philanthropist and board members, but there was also examples of friends groups wanting. So one was a friends group wanting to run uh a campaign um using the charity’s resources but not having any oversight or accountability from the charity and refusing to run the appeal if the charity had any oversight over them. So, I think there, it’s, I don’t know how there’s never been any research plans. This because most of the research that academic researchers do into donors and philanthropists is all about the good stuff they do. No one really wants to research the bad stuff they do. And why would they, because he’s gonna pay them to, to do that research. But I don’t know. I, I don’t, I don’t, I think it’s probably, uh, a bit more widespread than we give credit for. Yeah. All

[00:52:19.02] spk_0:
right. All right. Fair enough. Right. What would you like to leave us with Ian? What, what, what, what thoughts do you want? Uh, our CEO S executive directors and, and fundraisers to hear? Well, I would

[00:54:47.87] spk_2:
like to reach out to some of the people that push back against the code and say we’re not anti donor. We’re not anti philanthropist. Um, please read what we said again and we only think we only ever said this is the first iteration. It’s the type of thing that we can do. Each charity will come up with. The one that it, that, that it thinks is appropriate. We’re not trying to impose this on people. We are saying that we need to look at how we find a structural solution for this problem that we know is there. And this is one of the ways that we can do it. So embrace it, think about it, critique it. Give us your considered thoughts on it rather than I’m not doing that because it’s not the way I like to do things. Um And, and there are, there are, there are some other responses to that that um you know, that I would wouldn’t go into now. But when I read them, I thought you seriously cannot, that can’t be what you really think. You cannot be thinking what you’ve just written down is ok. But I digress. So I would like to say to some of those people who think this is an imposition. It’s, it’s not, we’re trying to solve a problem and we need to do it together, we need to do it with your help for CEO S for senior fundraisers. Um, directors of development. I’d say if you think this is not an issue, this is fine. It’s all right. But those poor charities, it happens to you. It doesn’t happen with us calls and maybe critically reflect on how certain and comfortable you are with that statement because it’s very likely that it is an issue and or not very likely. But it is, it’s a strong possibility that it’s an issue and it’s also a strong possibility that you have some fundraising staff whose lives are being made miserable and it might be affecting their mental health and your duty of care is not protecting them. You you’re not protecting them. So I, I would, I would say I know especially American fundraising is very donor centric. It’s all about lionizing donors showing them how great they are. But just because the majority of donors are great, doesn’t mean a minority are behaving very, very badly. And that needs to be addressed. And if it’s not this way, it still needs to be addressed in a way that presents a sex structural approach where we’re all standing together to combat this and not just kicking it down the line to the next poor charity that ending with it,

[00:55:06.82] spk_0:
Ian mcquillan, he’s director of the fundraising think tank, Rore all these resources, the donor conduct uh code and lots of uh other blog posts about um not only gender issues but just donor dominance in general and power structures. It’s all at uh Rore dot net and Ian is at Ian mcquillan. Thank you very much, Ian. Thank you for sharing your, your thinking.

[00:55:32.20] spk_2:
Thank you

[00:55:43.38] spk_1:
next week, Jean Takagi with possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:55:46.29] spk_0:
I’d be sea. You find it at tony-martignetti dot com

[00:55:58.14] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms, blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org.

[00:56:06.92] spk_0:
Fast, flexible, friendly. You, you sure you don’t mean flexible and friendly or flexible and

[00:56:31.91] spk_1:
friendly. And by Kila, she ignores me and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers crm visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:56:59.38] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie. You’re with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 11, 2023: Donor Retention


Dennis Fois: Donor Retention

The challenges are real and widespread: Aging donors; smaller gifts; and abysmal retention rates. Dennis Fois brings strategies and tactics to raise your consciousness and turn things around. Let’s talk about emotional connections, multithreading, and multichannel, just for starters. He’s CEO of Bloomerang.


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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:35.77] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I am your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be hit with Bera France if you lit me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show, Kate, our associate producer. What is up this week?

[00:01:10.67] spk_1:
Hey, tony, it’s donor retention. The challenges are real and widespread aging donors, smaller gifts and abysmal retention rates. Dennis Fo brings strategies and tactics to raise their consciousness and turn things around. Let’s talk about emotional connections, multi threading and being multichannel just for starters. He is CEO of Boomerang on Tony’s take two.

[00:01:13.14] spk_0:
It’s September 11th

[00:01:46.46] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraiser CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is donor retention.

[00:02:14.42] spk_0:
It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome Dennis Fo to nonprofit radio. He is CEO of Blue Marang. He’s had a broad international career spanning more than 25 years developing and leading high performing multicultural teams in the technology, customer experience, relationship management and financial services sectors. He’s on linkedin and the company is at Boomerang dot Co, Dennis Fois. Welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:23.67] spk_2:
Thanks very much for having me on tony.

[00:02:25.64] spk_0:
Pleasure. Pleasure. And uh where are you uh speaking

[00:02:28.54] spk_2:
from? I’m speaking from Carmel in California.

[00:02:35.88] spk_0:
Carmel, California. All right. Uh And the, the, the business is in Indianapolis, is that right?

[00:02:58.75] spk_2:
Originally started in Indie? And um as I think a lot of uh technology companies post pandemic has ended up all over the place. So we are very much scattered around the US. We are remote. So most of our employees work from home and then we, we work together, uh when we meet, we have events around that. But uh I want to mention about 30% of our employees in India and the rest outside of India nowadays. Ok.

[00:03:08.92] spk_0:
Ok. And it sounds like you’re intentional about getting the team together in person. Is that you, you find that, uh we, we’re, we’re digressing from our main topic. But, uh I’m, I’m, I’m interested and I think listeners are too. You, you, you find that important for uh for a uh a virtual team,

[00:05:30.12] spk_2:
super important. And I think um you have to be very intentional, deliberate about it. I, I mean, I’m one of those people that um as we all went into the pandemic and we had to do certain things that were just basically necessary. I did want to take some learning side of it because we did learn a lot. I, you know, I, I was an office rat before the pandemic or first in, first, last out and I sort of noticed a few things during the pandemic. They were actually very pleasurable and I think it doesn’t work for every company. But if you take, take hours, for instance, we work for small to midsize nonprofit organizations all around the US, what’s really cool is is that if you have your employees all around the US, you can actually give some time for employees to do something locally and that opens doors so you can create a better connection. We now have employees everywhere. So if there’s a customer, you know, I’ve, I’ve got customers here in Carmel. I did, I didn’t know that. So now we can connect, we can meet for a coffee. I can do. So I’m actually volunteering some with a local dog rescue. So it creates this sort of more emotional connections. Folks can pick up their Children from school. It’s a, it’s a, it adds an interesting layer to your company that in my opinion, can create a deeper connection with employees and potentially higher retention rate. So I’m not, you know, there is a, there is a shrewd business side to this too, right? Um And that is that employee, we talk about donor attention to the employee retention is a topic too. And um uh embracing some of the learnings that we’ve taken away rather than going back to an old model. Seems to me, uh it feels like the right thing to do. So we, we’re, we’re making it work. But yes, you absolutely have to be very intense about uh when you get together and what, then you shouldn’t be staring at presentations that you need to make it about human connection. And uh and that requires a lot of thinking. Um So it’s not because we don’t really have a good model uh where we, where we can learn from each other. So we, we’re figuring it out. Yeah,

[00:05:34.13] spk_0:
we’re working it out and you’re, I, I understand intentional and it’s worth investing in clearly,

[00:05:39.39] spk_2:
for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[00:06:20.36] spk_0:
All right. All right. So, thank you a little digression. Uh But as you said, yeah, we’re, we’re here to talk about uh donor retention. Uh What? Uh Well, II, I think it’s pretty widely known that we’re doing quite poorly as a sector in donor retention. Uh It’s 75% or so of one first time donors are, are lost after, after that first gift, which is abysmal. I mean, it’s un it’s, to me it’s unsustainable and unless, unless you have an enormous acquisition pipeline which you’re spending a lot of money on, which is quite a bit more expensive than retaining, uh, it, it seems unsustainable but, but it, but our, I, I’ll call it, our donor mortality rate continues to be very bad.

[00:10:01.84] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, um, if this was a business, we would be out of business. Right. Um, I agree with you entirely. The statistics are a little paralyzing at times I feel and, um, I would say, and sometimes there’s a lot of uh sort of negative communication around it. Some folks getting, getting very stressful about it, I would say in part, it’s also down to uh execution, right? Uh So what I mean is if you see uh your organization in 11 half of the organization about is about heart is what you care about what you’re passionate about. But the other part of it is the the brain part is where you do need to run it as an organization and what we are seeing a fair amount of in the small to mid size, say from 250 K to 25 up to 25 million. That is, it’s, it’s, it’s really not really approached and run like a business, you know, as a business, the moment you’ve acquired your first customer, this is the first donation, you, you be Fighting Tooth for Nail to retain that customer. We all, we all know that it’s much cheaper to retain existing customers. So, so it’s, it’s bizarre to see but, but then I started sort of digging in because, uh, you know, you get, you get to, uh, you get to ask why, well, why, why is it? It’s not that it’s been 30% that it’s 70% now, it’s been structurally like this for a very, very long time, you know, that better than I do even. And so why, why is that? And we don’t really have great answers. But for me, it comes down to a lack of establishment of emotional connection. I think that ultimately why most of us give is because there’s a level of feeling associated to it. It’s not a transaction for most people to donate. Whether it’s a small donation, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a feeling whether it’s a feeling to make yourself feel good or whether it’s a uh altruistic Phil philanthropy, what whatever the feeling is, it’s about feeling. And when you think about that, you and then you ask yourself and say, ok, what am I doing to, to help that person get more connected to my organization? That’s where it starts to unravel real quick. So, capital campaigns are about transactions and numbers. Um when we, and, and it’s very knee jerky. You know, when we, when the numbers are low low, we’ll run a big campaign and it feels a little bit like a transactional approach. Well, thanks very much. Our course was to raise so many thousands. We did it, we did the sele, but we’re forgetting the basics. Let me give you one which I found shocking statistic you and I experience this. You’d think that saying thank you when somebody’s donated would be pretty common practice, right? So I’ve just donated in whatever form I’m receiving some form of. Thank you. I’m not even talking about the most impactful way of doing it. I’m just talking about. Thank you in a way, an email, whatever it, when you look at it, the statistics are pretty bad. So we, we, we, we look at this because we, we work with our prospects and customers about how, where can we improve some things if I give you sort of an aggregate number saying thank you within say the first two weeks of a donation happens in less than 13% of cases. No, 13

[00:10:07.11] spk_0:
what two weeks? It’s supposed to be 24 hours, 24 hours for a perfunctory and then maybe there’s a follow up, you know, I like to see a follow up call or a handwritten note or something, but the perfunctory should be 24 hours and you’re saying two weeks and it’s 2 13%

[00:11:15.01] spk_2:
13, 13. And then if we lengthen the time to 30 days, at which point, I don’t even remember what I’ve done to be honest with you, but then that number goes up to 18% 18. So it’s, it’s a crazy number if you think about if you set that number up against 75% 1st time donor retention rate issues, right? And you say, say, but we never say thank you to me, rather than looking at really structural societal, economic reasons for why things are the way they are, we should really start to look at, are we doing absolutely everything we can to establish an emotional connection? And frankly, if you miss a thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It sort of feels like you’re, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve got a, you had a false start, right? Yeah. Now

[00:11:35.34] spk_0:
you’ve, you’ve, you’ve blown the, you’ve blown the opportunity if, if, if you’re responding with a, a even a perfunctory. Thank you. As I said, I’d like to see 24 hours but within 48 hours that you’re going out to two weeks and it’s only 13%. Uh, and what, what is, what is that? I’ve never heard it that low. That awful, what, what is that based on that? That’s boomerang clients. Yeah,

[00:12:48.42] spk_2:
we look at and prospects. So we, we, we, um, uh, I, I’ll give, I gave you sort of an aggregate number. Some folks are much better, better at it than others, but you’d be surprised. It’s certainly not in the, it’s never in the high 80% or something like that you’d be. And there’s always a reason why people say I didn’t have whatever address or there’s always some reason, but there’s also no reason because if you and I would be running a business, there’s always a way to say thank you to someone. Right. So, so it, it feels to me, uh, there’s plenty of, you know, hurdles that we can keep up with. I didn’t have the right email address, didn’t have the right phone number or something happened. I didn’t do it, whatever, but it’s structurally super bad and it’s always in the low single digit percentage across the board. In fact, we often, um, engage with prospects like that when we look at sort of, uh, they might have other systems or other tactics and as they’re looking for another system, they want to also improve the processes. Right? And we often do these sort of assessments where we, um, uh, that’s what we do. We actually make small donations on behalf of us and we should see we track what, what happens and that’s, that’s how we get that information. And, uh,

[00:13:14.60] spk_0:
if you, if you’re not responding within 24 hours, I think it looks like you just don’t care. Right. Talk about grabbing someone from the heart first, you know, to, to give them a feeling, AAA warm feeling anything more than 24 hours. Looks like your gift doesn’t really mean too much to us. In 30 days. 30 you may as well not, I don’t know. To me after two weeks, you might not even bother it. You’ve already, you’ve already blown the relationship unless I don’t know unless you call with, uh, uh, some kind of catastrophic story, uh you know, which is not, not likely, uh you’ve blown it, you’ve blown the opportunity.

[00:15:41.99] spk_2:
Yeah, completely. And, and, and we often get uh a little bit of setback when you sort of look at and say, hey, am I supposed to say thank you? Like do I, what, what does it matter if I say automated email, for instance, as a thank you to everyone that’s not very personal, it’s not very emotional. And I agree. But if you start by saying thank you to your first time donors and have different means to engage with your retained donors, that would be a good start. You can’t tell me that you, you have so many first time donors that you can’t deal with the volume like that. That seems, that seems like a that’s a very high bar to achieve. That’s not what we are seeing, right? So I think if you just narrow it down and say just hit the notes I had um I wasn’t, I had a, a charity rally where we had sort of a thing with old cars and this was to support a local dog rescue. And uh we did a bunch of things like auctions and stuff like that and we made a donation and it was so amazing that the following day um I got a voice mail so they didn’t get with me, but that voicemail was fantastic. It was just a voice mail from the executive director and it was just like, it was just a, a very nice warm, I heard the voice. It made me feel super good. I thought I did the right thing and, um, and now there was a, you know, a typical newsletter that follows. So I actually read that newsletter now. Right, because I’m, I’ve got something there. Actually, I love that lady. I love how passionate she is about making sure that these dogs end up in the right homes and how deliberate she is about all of that. Um And she’s, she’s got me like they’ve got me, I want to do more and, and I thought it was as simple as just dropping me in a a voicemail. She didn’t even try to call me. It was just a voicemail straight into my inbox, but because it was a voicemail and not an email, it was much more personal and I’m pretty sure that day maybe from that event, let’s just be generous. Say that she had five or six new donors, right? New first I done this. Is it really that hard to to send five? Thank you. Um I don’t know, seems like it seems like it’s doable.

[00:15:45.98] spk_0:
Now. You, you’ve mentioned this dog rescue uh a couple of times now. So why don’t you shout them out properly? No, I

[00:15:50.85] spk_2:
can’t. I can’t because this built a pool. They,

[00:15:57.27] spk_0:
they, they all right, you’re a big, you’re such a big dog lover. You can’t shout out to you. All right. All right. All right. Well, we know we

[00:16:03.26] spk_2:
have the opportunity though, tony, but I think I’m gonna get it. Um I’m gonna get it wrong somewhere with someone. It’s a very

[00:16:10.28] spk_0:
small town, right? We know we have a dog

[00:16:46.14] spk_1:
lover. It’s time for a break. Donor box, quote, donor box text to give led to one of our more successful fundraising events, a concert sharing the keyword short code and scannable QR code made giving easy for our supporters. And they did give that’s from Josh Young executive director of hydrating Humanity Donor Boxx, helping you help others donor Boxx dot org. Now back to donor retention.

[00:17:09.28] spk_0:
So in with automation, I mean, this, you give a gift, you have to provide an email address and and or a phone number so you can send them an email or a text again, this perfunctory, you know, within 24 hours. I I just don’t see any reason why with, with automation that are pretty standard, right? And you should be able to send an immediate

[00:20:01.36] spk_2:
technology problem. It’s not a technology problem. There are no technological hurdles here. I mean, systems might be difficult to use and what have you but you can, it’s not rocket science. Once you’ve done it, once you can, you can figure it out that I think the, you know what it’s the way I think about it, which is fascinating. I think we have three big challenges that we need to think through. They’re gonna be pretty structural. We’ve got aging donors, we’ve got declining small donations. So from uh gifts up to $100 and from 100 to $500 are down across the board and we have a very hard time retaining first time donors. Those are the three like big uh themes if you can call them that or headwinds, whatever you wanna call them that we need to think through. Ok, these are gonna be here for a while. How, how do I, how do I respond to those? Right. And the bizarre thing is that because we have aging donors, we need to think about our uh our donors as a whole. We need to think about. Ok, how do I tap into younger donors? How do I tap into, how do I broaden my connection to household and not have a singular donor within a household? So you need to think about that. And it’s remarkable then that when we’re presented an opportunity to have a first time donor that we would, we wouldn’t be obsessed about retaining these donors in some way either by and if and if the friction is around the donation, I’d rather take a small recurring donation over a haphazard first time donation. There’s a, a strategy too. So we have all the tools in place. It’s just that it’s almost like we are applying principles that we have. We, we, we’ve applied for years to today. But today things are really starting to accelerate. So when we think of don, you know, frankly dying donors uh and not being part of estate planning and such, we really need to think about tapping into different generationals. And now that generation uh you have then you have other questions which is, is email, the best medium, et cetera, et cetera. But um uh there is an amazing opportunity there in my opinion, to, to, to tap into because we are getting the first time donors in, we are getting them. So it’s not like the next generation is nonn generous. It’s quite the opposite. Actually, the generation that we all love to hate the Gen Z and the millennials are extraordinarily driven by impact and doing good for the world. They are probably one of the most in tune generation. We’re just not connecting with them and uh and their rotation rates will continue to show what they’re showing if applying these type of uh methods here. So it’s a, it’s a challenge.

[00:22:16.22] spk_0:
I, I wonder if some of the problem with connecting with the millennials and Gen Z is that the leadership are baby boomers and they’re not listening to their own millennial and Gen Z employees or the or they’re not even seeking the advice of those younger folks about how to, how to connect the younger donors again. Emotionally. I, I think, I think if you start with the heart the brain follows. So you had that heartfelt genuine sincere voicemail, just a voicemail and it, it, and it’s drawn you in and that’s so that’s an example. Um They’re so they’re not, they’re not taking the advice. And I think these boomers of which I’m one, a young one, a very, a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very young boomer, but I am just barely a baby boomer. You know, uh the generation is not taking the advice of younger folks, seeking the advice of younger folks, but how to connect with younger folks and that and that they are your future planned giving donors. Planned giving is what I do, fundraising consulting and strictly in planned giving. So if you wanna have that pipeline of long term, you know, the the ultimate, the ultimate gift for a lot of people is in their estate plan. If you want to benefit from that ultimate giving, you need to be treating these folks well from the, from the jump from that 1st 24 hours that we’re talking about and, and then beyond and you know, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve broadened beyond the, the the initial thank you. But um you know, that’s, I mean, that’s a again back to a business, I mean, that’s how a business maintains a, a pipeline of customers. But you know, you have, we have to have a pipeline of prospects right throughout the, throughout the age spectrum, throughout on all the different ways of giving monthly sustainer and major and people give just once uh once a year or, or give just to a particular program, just give around the gala. If, if we’re suffering an event like that, I don’t want to get into the difficulties of event, major event fundraising. But you know, we’re, we’re just not, we’re not, you’re right, we’re not creating like think of it like a business and we’re not, we’re not treating our pipeline of prospects and donors appropriately.

[00:25:47.71] spk_2:
So, you know, what strikes me is, um, a a because it, I, I can imagine that it’s, listen, it’s hard. There’s a million things to do your research constraint. Um uh it’s, there’s a, there’s high stress involved with fundraising, but there seemed to be some opportunities to rather than try and figure it all out on your own. There’s a, a dozens and dozens of millennials that want to do volunteer work and instead of doing, letting them do volunteer work on your core nonprofit course, why don’t enlist them to help you with the communication using social media? And just the, there’s so many of these, of that generation is so in tune with it. But what I’m seeing over and over again is we are recruiting them for helping them with the local dog rescue. I had that conversation with them. I said, I noticed that one here. This is why I, um I, I’ve been a very long time. Uh, uh donor of and they, what I noticed is, hey, I get all these lovely updates about dogs that need a home and placement. But I hardly ever see what happens after and the real reason why, like, what I care is I wanna make sure that those dogs go to the right place and I believe in your ability to do that. And that’s why I, I, I’m prepared to sort of help out. But the story that I really want to see is a happy dog in a happy household. But I never see those stories. Yeah, occasionally there’s one in the newsletter but you’re placing like so many dogs and, and then the penny drops, as we would say is, um, why don’t we get some of the, there was a volunteer, like there was a, there was a girl that was sort of helping with the shelter and, you know, helping to take care of the dogs and getting them ready, you know, making them look good for, uh for these, uh for the visits. And she was very, very skilled at social media. She was on Instagram. She was all this book and it, and she saw them well, now why don’t we just get these new families to record a little short video on their iphone uh after, you know, a couple of days in the home, like the first week, you know, the first week with Fluffy and it needs to be a very like badly shot video not produced. It is what it is. And then they said, what do we do with the video? You just give that video to me. I’ll take care of it. She said, and it was wonderful. And within a honestly, within a week, I think it turned into this whole thing that now they basically say, hey, as part of the placement of the doc, we need you to give us an update on how it’s going. And that update is a simple little video. They send it to it that now goes on the social base that gets connected to the newsletter, goes on the website. And now there’s a whole different audience that they’re tapping into and these dog stories are starting to do their rounds. Now, what did that cost? Not very much. Uh would a ba baby boomer be very good at executing that? Probably not. But you don’t have to like, you can use volunteers in different ways that you can use volunteers to help you with reach. And in fact, might actually be more helpful because we, that generation probably connects better to their own. Then sort of a grumpy, old boomer or young boomer uh grumpy.

[00:25:52.68] spk_0:
Now you added grumpy. That was not, it

[00:25:54.84] spk_2:
was affecting to myself.

[00:27:08.24] spk_0:
All right. Well, you take that on yourself. Fine. I take about grumpiness. You, you threw that in, you tried. All right. Yeah, it uh it just, you use the, that you have, whether it’s volunteer, it’s on your team. Uh Maybe it’s a consultant. You know, what you’re describing is, it sounds precious. The, the production value is meaningless. It’s, it’s the, it’s the substance and, and, you know, they, they probably now, you know, or they, they will soon have courses of these videos videos that they can repurpose on Instagram, tiktok, Mastodon, youtube, uh their, their own site, of course, uh uh links in newsletters, you know, uh 30 a AAA compilation of uh you know, 32nd videos or something. It’s, and, and that, and that’s the impact that, that, that’s the impact that a lot of people want to see and, and especially well, donors really, I think across the age spectrum are much more cognizant of impact, much more interested in impact. But I, I think younger folks are even more so um Dennis, let, let’s talk some more about some tactics of drawing in making that emotional connection, getting the heart and, and letting the brain follow.

[00:32:02.04] spk_2:
Yeah. Um um a, a couple of things um on that. I think we, we as an industry rely very heavily on email and I’m not so sure that’s a great idea. Um I think email is useful and helpful, but I don’t know about your inbox what that looks like. Um Mine looks pretty challenging. I’ve got a work one and I’ve got a private one and I take a deep sigh in the morning. When I have to sort of make weed my way through whatever, you know, irrelevant stuff, it starts with deleting a whole bunch of stuff and then hopefully I haven’t deleted it too much. So, email is challenging to get attention. Number one and two, it’s actually not easy to make email, uh, create a sort of reinforce of establish an emotional connection because you have to be actually quite good, quite good with, with words. And that’s a high bar, I think um that to, to there are some science out there about how you should write. I mean, the dr is always right about these stories. So the more of these stories you have to your point on impact, the more you should do it. But relying on email alone and then thinking that you have done it, I think is a pretty big mistake. Um I think you have a I like email as a uh uh you mentioned a couple of idea of uh of things like a newsletter or an update. So something that we basically uh is periodic. Uh So, hey, we’re here, this is what we’ve done. That’s great. That’s wonderful. Um But I much prefer that folks and we start to see that experiment with different media and voice, for instance, is still very much underutilized. So people don’t really use Zoom voice. I I there was actually an email that came in for someone that just recorded um a blurp like they had like a, it was like a zoom like we’re doing now today and they included that zoom into it, but there was no video, it was just voice and they were just telling, uh, there was an update of the month but they said we’re gonna try something different. We’re gonna, I’m gonna, so the executive director spoke on the zoom. I thought that was nice. So it was, so that was unusual. So I had a voice, I had him talk. There was a bit of a, a funny moment so you can hear them laugh as they said that I, I had it plugged it in my airpods as I was walking so easy. I don’t have to really uh you know, be concentrated on my, on my desk to read it all. So I thought it was a great, great way to use it. Video is still very underutilized. We all like, you know how it is, it’s not that difficult anymore to uh to have the video. You can still use your email to send it. Um And so I think when it comes to tactics that we have to be careful not to rely on one and just set it and forget it, right? So you basically say, oh yeah, I’m I am communicating with my donors. I’m sending an email. I send a, an um a newsletter every month. Uh Yeah, you know, is that the bar like is the, what is the latest. What is the late, what have you tried? What other things have you tried? Do you know whether they open it and read it? Do you do? Do you have that? Because nowadays we know? Right. We have a pretty good idea of, uh, whether folks read it or not and then what do you do with that information? You just continue sending stuff the other question I have. So that’s one thing it is about the tactics is don’t rely on a single attack. They just set some sort of a goal that every year or every quarter of it, whatever it is feasible, you try something new and see if it sticks, just stick it and stay with it for a few months but just try it, try it. Um, the other thing I would say is as much as there’s a reliance on, uh, the medium, email, phone video, whatever, there’s also a reliance on, uh, the recipient, which is who we’re sending it to. What I find. There’s a concept in business that’s called single threading, um, which is, uh, never referred to as a positive thing. It’s a bad thing. The single, single threading. So what we, what, what it means is that you’re basically when you’re trying to, uh, connect with an account with a prospect, it’s usually a business. And when your single thread in the account, it means that you’re only speaking with one contact in the, in that organization and you know, that a decision usually has to make with multiple people. And very often, even if there’s a CEO CEO would want to make sure that her team is consulted, et cetera, et cetera. So whether these folks are making, whether others are making the decision or influences is irrelevant. It’s very rare that one person calls all the shots. It’s much more common that multiple people have to be engaged, consulted and informed.

[00:32:50.86] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kila increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kela. The fundraiser, Crm maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with your donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser, Crm goes beyond data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit, Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:34:17.23] spk_0:
Thanks Kate. This week’s show gets published on September 11th, the anniversary of the day that changed our country changed the world profoundly. We all remember where we were, I was uh an employee. It was the dark days of uh employment for me at Saint John’s University in Queens, New York and Saint John’s is up on a hill and we could see downtown Manhattan. So it was in a distance but we could see it happening live. We were going between watching, live and, uh, for real and watching on TV, you know, more close up, of course, but everybody’s got their story of September 11th. And, uh, I think we should just, um, use the anniversary as a, a time to remember to keep in mind the victims, the immediate victims, uh, this week, uh, and also, uh, not only the ones who died that day, but those who are still dying from their service there and from exposures, let’s just remember those folks this week that is Tony’s take two. OK.

[00:34:23.98] spk_1:
You reminded me of a saying I once heard they’re gone but never forgotten.

[00:34:27.55] spk_0:
Yes. Yes.

[00:34:30.29] spk_1:
Let’s go back to donor retention with Dennis Fois.

[00:35:31.20] spk_2:
So you want to become multithreaded to increase your alt of success, in my opinion, the same is true for a household. If you solely rely on the first contact that you ever had, that is the the donor that has actually made the donation. But you know that they’re part or you might not even know that they’re part of a household and you’re not making any efforts to deeper connect and create more contacts in that household organization. You’re missing a big, big, big trick and a big opportunity because I think that the more we can establish an emotional connection at the household level, the higher, higher the chances that things make sense as part of a state planning this is a long drawn process but being simply relying and only communicated to a single donor, in my opinion, is a risky affair. And so doing events where my partners or Children are involved, do whatever you can. You obviously can’t ask who else is in your household. Give me their email addresses, understand. But there’s not, but you could make events deliberately and purposeful, designed to bring the family together, to bring them all in and then start to collect data as part of that event, right? Uh I don’t see a lot of that. Yeah.

[00:37:28.92] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s consistent with your first ideas, not be singular channel, you know, be multichannel, uh be multi thread within the, within the household. Exactly. Yeah. Iii I see that play out a lot uh in events where the there might be a couple there. Again, I do planned giving. So the events I’m going to are usually for older folks. Uh not necessarily plan giving age, but plan giving prospect age. And there are a lot of couples uh whether they’re married or partnered and I see a lot of conversations with one person in, in the couple and it’s, it’s usually, it’s usually the male in, in a, in a, in a traditional hetero couple. Um And, and the, the female is, you know, largely ignored but, you know, but whatever the couple dynamics, I i it’s a mistake to just be talking to the one person because you, you you want the support, you want the buy in, of, of, of the couple. Um, just, it just, it just makes things so much smoother. Uh, you, you reduce any contention around giving that might be playing out in, in the, in, in the home that you have no idea about. You know, so don’t, don’t talk to one person to the exclusion of the other person in, in the couple. Right. Iii, I see that a lot and I bet in person events, right. That, that’s a mistake.

[00:40:20.01] spk_2:
That’s a big mistake. And I bet tony that it’s if you were to go back, even if they’ve spoken or connected in some way, I bet that if you go back and look at the database and say, let’s say the household and we had a nice conversation with me and my wife that when you look back at the database, my wife’s contact information is not in that database. Right? So, because it’s again, none of these things happen with one conversation that like it’s, it’s very rare. I mean, as a magical when it happened, it’s wonderful, but it’s usually it takes time, it takes repeated connections, interactions over a long period of time. And so the best chance we have is if we broaden our reach, but not just broaden our reach, we’re constantly trying to find new people all the time. To your point, this big funnel machine. But if we can expand within our existing donors, we absolutely improve our retention rates. In reality, if you improve your retention rate by about sort of 10% or so, you triple the lifetime value over time over your, over your donor base. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it behooves upon all of us. How do you improve retention rates? Well, it’s not just constantly talking to the same person and sending them more stuff. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, you know, that, that has a diminishing return. So, and I feel that we probably need to talk more in the industry about it and share ideas or how others are doing it and talk more about these tactics because I feel that some of the uh some of the nonprofit organization that we talk to want to do it, they, they, they, they’re not afraid of experimenting but sometimes sort of lack the applicable ideas because the industry has started to become quite academic and we talk about things, you know, theoretical concepts and big numbers and scary numbers and frankly paralyzing numbers at the time, it like doesn’t inspire me to act, right? And I think we should maybe need to do a slightly better job as an industry. And I think you do that with your things like your, your podcast where you get deeper into the things and just ideas that I can sort of, you know, walk away but give me one or two ideas that I can do tomorrow then and I can at least I can sort of figure out whether it works or it might work for some, it won’t work for others. But if you don’t try you don’t know. And the reality is there’s no one approach that will work for everyone but relying on email alone and only talking to your donor is a guaranteed, guaranteed, uh, path that sets you to become part of the statistics. Yeah. That’s basically how they’ve been built

[00:41:00.80] spk_0:
on the wrong end. Yeah. Yeah. It, it’s shallow. It’s, it’s not a, it’s not a hard, uh, it’s not a heart to heart connection. Um, you know, as you were, as you were speaking, I was thinking, you know, when, when you call, if, if the, if the non, the non primary donor answers, do you just ask for the donor or do you say? Oh, hello. You know, and wouldn’t it be great if you could hearken back to the, to when you had the conversation at the last event with that other, the, the other person? Oh, it was such a pleasure to meet you, you know, or, or do you just say, you know, can I, oh, hi. Can I speak to Dennis? You know, that, that, that’s, that, that’s, that’s a, uh, it’s a turn off. It’s perceived by, by both people in the couple. Uh, it, it may not ever be spoken about or, or even worse. It might be, but it, it’s detrimental in either, in, in either case. Um, it’s just a, you know, it’s, it’s fundamental respect for, for people.

[00:42:38.17] spk_2:
Well, I agree in respect but also, um, sound business mind. Right. If you want to, like, if, if it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a good business practice. So there’s, there’s the head and the heart that comes together if you were to think that any time that you connect with someone, the donor, but you get somebody else on the phone as a prospecting opportunity, that might be the right mindset. You know, because you, that’s how you treat a new event. When you, when you with this new families and new folks coming be all overdose, right? To tell the story and why you started the uh the organization. Uh the same is true for this prospect with the big benefit that it’s a warm prospect. It’s not a cold prospect, right? Because there’s no connection. So if you think about how do I increase donation sizes, how do I become maybe part of recurring giving? Those are, those are the situations where that happens where both both partners have an emotional connection with the cause and stimulate one another and say, hey, this is something we want, really want to support as a family now that always leads to more sustained and higher donations. Um First, as being one of the two partners that supported because this is their uh their charity of choice.

[00:42:48.49] spk_0:
Other, other thoughts Dennis about tactics that folks can at least experiment with.

[00:45:17.14] spk_2:
Um, yeah, well, so what is, what it has been pretty successful? This might be, um, a little sort of personal but what has been successful here locally? Um, II, I, it was actually quite interesting. So we, um, there are these groups of, uh, people that get together for hobbies, in our case, I’m part of a club that likes old cars. So old people and old cars come together once in a while and they, they do, they take whatever excuse on the wrist to sort of drive these things. And, uh, but we wanted to add a little bit of more depth to it. So we started to, um, to seek out whether there were uh interesting nonprofit organizations around us that we could support somehow. So to make the, so we would basically say, hey, as part of this drive, there is a cost to the drive and that this, this cost was basically fundraising. So we would raise through these drivers a donation and we would then have a, um, have that money go to a, uh a charity of choice, right? One that we would say, hey, this month we’re gonna be supporting this. What I found remarkable is that very few nonprofit organization had identified that a lot of these events were happening. I’ve got a local tennis club, there’s a local, there’s a very, very big car community here in Carmel and Monterey. It’s just a thing. So everybody that lives here knows that. But what I found staggering is that it was actually hard work for us to find. We actually had to seek out nonprofit organizations and explain that we wanted to do some events. And then once we had that people were very generous and said, oh, we come over and speak, we can say a few things about what we we will do and we would attach an auction, little auction, something around to just make sure that these are affluent people. So, you know, making donations is, is a, is, is not a high friction situation. Um But what I found remarkable and a missed opportunity which we’re now making more available is tap into these um communities. So, you know, there are in Indie, it’s the same in Indianapolis. There’s a lot of communities that have certain themes that folks that get together, a lot of them would be very happy, supported co courses. And so what I’m seeing, but

[00:45:34.49] spk_0:
pardon me? But these are essentially giving circles. They are. And I, I had the, I had the evangelist for giving circle Sarah on the show just within the past six weeks or so. Um So, you know, whether it’s a car club or a bunch of folks who meet once a month in someone’s in rotating homes or, you know, or it’s some other, some other uh organization that’s willing to do fundraising and, and granting you’re, you’re essentially, you’re talking about giving circles in, in your community.

[00:49:25.30] spk_2:
100%. That’s a wonderful way of, of uh putting it and uh talk about building a funnel and building connection into, into your community. Uh And they very often become repeat themes, especially if there is an emotive connection with the individual. If the executive director does a good job at presenting, being there, telling the story of the organization, you know, you, I would say it’s almost guaranteed, there’ll be some sort of successful. So it’s really worth doing. But again, it’s about being proactive and seeking those out, making an effort to actually find out what, what is around me. Uh That seems to me, I was blown away. Uh It’s now become a thing with us or every month. There’s something that sometimes there’s twice a month or something. Um But what is also interesting is that most of us end up giving to the ones that we are really connected with, right? So there is the, the event itself that produces us, but some of us actually get, we had a, we had a lady that um had a very traumatic situation with her husband and a child and a child had a disease that was very difficult to cure. And it sort of inspired her to create a, a organization or profit organization to help folks with, um with a, in a similar situation. And she, when she told her story, I most most of us couldn’t keep it together to be honest. So it just becomes like a different level of connectivity and accountability. And so, so I I, no, no, I wanna help you. This is crazy. There is no support from um uh health care that this is sort of under recognized. These people are out, out, out, out, all out on their own. Actually with a little bit of money, a lot can be done. So you start to connect the dots to say what I can actually have a real impact here and help to make a situation better. I can fund. If I can fund this lady, people’s life will change. And when you get to that sort of level of this is where my money or time can go and this is the impact I can achieve I want. II I mean, I’ve had a reluctant to say donor for life because we know that that’s a difficult thing, but that’s a level of connection that no email in the world, no phone in the world can be, can hope to achieve. And so if you’re not out there connecting with an audience like that new circles, um you’re making it yourself very hard, I think to find these people that are, that are then spreading the word because I didn’t talk to all this about it. So we know how that all works, right? So I would say those are still very underutilized idea. So this the this idea of using multiple channels of communications expanding within the families, sort of the multi threading thing that we’re talking about and exploring the circles rather than treating individuals of transactions. We have a lot of room for improvement when it comes about executing and doing good, better, best on those. And so in a way, the statistics that we talked about are not that surprising because frankly, if you’d run a business in the way we are running as an industry nonprofit, these are the statistics that you would get. It’s like fast in, fast out. Yeah, it’s, it’s a classic bad business model like,

[00:49:30.53] spk_0:
yeah, uh Boomerang wouldn’t survive that way. No, no,

[00:49:33.29] spk_2:
no, no. My board would swap me out real quick. You had

[00:50:47.46] spk_0:
clients, you had clients for a year and, and 77% of them uh stayed only that long. Um Yeah, loyalty, you know, it’s, it’s all, it’s all the heart, loyalty, connections. Um speaking from the heart, respecting people. And then, yeah, you know, and, and so I, I speak kind of altruistically or, or maybe not academically but altruistic. Uh and uh and lofty and, you know, you remind us that it’s also all good business. It’s all good business to, to think of the partner as a, as a, as a prospect uh to, to have folks telling their own story in a, in a simple iphone video with low production value from the home with dim lighting and, and the sound is cutting out and the Children are in the background but the, you know, but the, but the newly placed dog, uh, pet is, is, is, is barking wildly and, and that’s the, you know, that’s the impact. That’s perfect. So, it’s, it’s, it’s, that’s the, those are the moments that are sincere and genuine, connect with our hearts and end up being good business.

[00:53:29.50] spk_2:
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. And, um, that head and heart thing, we, I think when we, when our organizations get la get larger, nonprofit organizations get larger, you, you, it’s ok to think of a part of it as a business. It’s ok actually because the more effective the organization becomes the greater the impact you can achieve at our company at Bloomer. We, we have often sort of struggle with that balance where you sort of say, well, do, is it all about growing revenues? Is that basically the, the mark of a success for us or how do we measure impact? But the reality is you should not put pit those two things against each other because if you could see uh fundraising volume or revenue, you could see that as fuel and you need fuel. We need fuel. So you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t shortchange yourself or making sure like you feel really good, you’ve done this wonderful thing, but it doesn, doesn’t scale because it requires you to do it over and over. It can scale. But now you’re not putting fuel in a tank and we, we have to have few because the more fuel we have the greater the impact that we can choose the more resource. So the problem is that we have in this, in this industry, it’s difficult for us to attract and retain talent. So as much as we have a donor retention problem, look at the employee retention problem that we have in this industry. And if you become more successful at creating scalable and repeatable initiatives, which you’re experimenting, you’re trying things, you’re making these emotional connections, we can attract high quality people into the organization that can sort of sustain and increase that momentum. So I, I often, when we talk about this, it feels like, yeah, but you can’t run a nonprofit organization like a business. And I said, well, why not? Um why not? Um You, you know, if you, I, at some point, I’d like to work in an organization like this, but you better believe it that I be, I’m gonna be very intense in the work. I’m not gonna sort of be relaxed because I work in a nonprofit because I’m gonna be super intense if we’re wasting money or if we are not following up on things or something goes out, that is a little bit half baked. That is not a high standard. Like why, why wouldn’t those things apply? Isn’t that what makes things better, like striving to better standards doing something, trying something different growing as an organization. So I think we have to be destigmatize the, the brain part uh in this industry and say that it’s OK to pursue growing as an organization because that growth allows to achieve far greater impact than the individual to start. The organization ever thought was imaginable. So we growth has to be part of an obe of the objective of the organization.

[00:54:20.17] spk_0:
Dennis. I’d like to leave it there. Thank you, tony and II I unical agree with you about perceiving our organizations as businesses. Uh III I, I’d take a step further and say, I think it’s essential. We, we don’t, we don’t lose our heart. We don’t lose our mission that the two are not mutually exclusive. We, we can, we can pursue our missions and our values as well as think of ourselves as a business. That’s, that’s not the zero

[00:54:25.96] spk_2:
sum, 100% 100%

[00:54:36.40] spk_0:
Denis Fo Fois. He’s CEO of Boomerang. You’ll find Dennis on linkedin. You’ll find the company at Boomerang dot co, Dennis. Thank you very much for sharing your thinking. I appreciate it.

[00:54:43.89] spk_2:
Huge. Thanks for the opportunity, tony. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. My

[00:54:47.07] spk_0:
pleasure. Thank you.

[00:54:57.22] spk_1:
Next week, donor dominance with Ian mcquillan. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:55:00.36] spk_0:
I’d be you find it at Tomm martignetti dot com

[00:55:11.98] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org.

[00:55:20.32] spk_0:
I love that alliteration

[00:55:38.38] spk_1:
and Bikila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyer. I’m your associate producer, Kate Marett. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:56:06.34] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be.

Nonprofit Radio for September 5, 2023: A Post-Fellowship Conversation With Amy Sample Ward


Amy Sample WardA Post-Fellowship Conversation With Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward, NTEN CEO

What did they do over their Bosch Foundation Fellowship, who did they meet and what did they talk about for three months abroad? For a tease: How tech could save an island nation, and the future of the internet. Trivial topics like that. Amy is our technology contributor and the CEO of NTEN.


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[00:00:36.69] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite Heb Domin podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be thrown into toxicosis if you poisoned me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, Kate. Give us the highlights, please.

[00:01:10.66] spk_1:
Ok, tony, we have a post fellowship conversation with Amy Sample Ward. What did they do over their Bosch Foundation fellowship? Who did they meet? And what did they talk about for three months abroad for a tease, how tech could save an island nation and the future of the internet. Trivial topics like that. Amy is our technology contributor and the CEO of N 10 on Tony’s take two

[00:01:12.85] spk_0:
fair share. That’s fair.

[00:01:48.04] spk_1:
We sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org. And Bikila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraiser CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is a post fellowship conversation with Amy Sample Ward.

[00:02:20.21] spk_0:
It is a pleasure to welcome back Amy Sample Ward to nonprofit radio. They are the CEO of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor, their most recent co-authored book. And frankly, I think another one is due shortly uh is the tech that comes next about equity and inclusiveness in technology development. They’re at Amy Sample Ward dot org and at Amy Rs Ward. Welcome back, Amy.

[00:02:27.59] spk_2:
Thanks for having me. I’m excited to chat about so many things today. Yeah,

[00:02:56.76] spk_0:
it’s a genuine pleasure because it’s been several months because you were on this uh highfalutin fellowship, Bosch, the Bosch Fellowship, the Dishwasher Company Fellowship, which is so much more than uh dishwashers, of course, and vacuum cleaners. So you were in the Bosch Foundation Fellowship abroad based in Berlin, catch us up from there. What is sure. So look like for a summer.

[00:06:43.60] spk_2:
Totally, the Bosch Foundation is the shareholders of the Bosch Company. So I think fewer foundations and companies have this model in the US, but be more common in, in Europe where there is a commercial company and instead of having lots of shareholders and publicly traded stocks, the foundation is the owner and the foundation is a grantmaking organization. They provide grants for all kinds of, you know, nonprofits, um all around the world actually. And one of their programs is called the Bosch Academy where they have uh for nine years now, um a fellowship program that brings folks from truly all different industries and sectors to Berlin for a period of time. I was only there for three months but other folks are there for 69 plus months. Uh to really, I mean, I couldn’t believe it even up until the last day I was waiting for them to say, and here’s what you have to deliver, there was nothing you’re really there to pursue opportunities that you wouldn’t otherwise have kind of the mental space to do in your day to day, you know, work. Um So I was there for three months and all the fellows are on their own timeline. So, uh it was a little bit confusing because I think maybe at least in the US when I think of a fellowship, I think it’s like a cohort of people. We’re all doing like a program together that it, it’s much more of what we would call a residency. So people are on their own timelines. There’s no overarching programming. Uh Everyone is and I think it would be hard to do that because people really are from very diverse um backgrounds. So, while I was there as a fellow, some of my other, other fellow fellows, um you know, there was a GP from England who works in the NHS and had been leading their um digital health work. There was a former president um of Costa Rica. There was um someone from the State Department that now works at Brookings. Um researching industrialization that, you know, so there were people from all, all different backgrounds and interest areas and specialties and I would say the main kind of anchor that, that we did have together was twice a week. We all have lunch together, which feels like, ok, you just have, you know, lunch together, but really opportunities to sit at a, you know, a table that’s small enough, you really could have a conversation with everyone, you know, 10 or fewer people over lunch to talk about things with people who are working all different industries. It’s just not something we normally have the privilege and opportunity to do. Nor do I think we actively create those opportunities very much for ourselves. You know, and the, the kind of twice a week getting to sit together, share a meal talk about what is interesting to us. Um they often brought in speakers. So, um, you know, maybe it’s a journalist from one of the newspapers who’s coming in and sharing, you know, trends they’re seeing um in certain whatever they, you know, in the political section or, or whatever topic, maybe it’s um folks from Eu or German policy, uh houses sharing visa policies. We’re recommending, you know, all different opportunities just to learn and like sit together in conversation. So it was really powerful,

[00:06:51.00] spk_0:
former president of Costa Rica WW. What is he or she looking into?

[00:08:04.78] spk_2:
So, the fellow um that was there with me, that’s the former uh President of Costa Rica Carlos Alvarado was um pursuing now um is a teacher at the Fletcher School. And his fellowship was focused on uh designing a new framework for diplomacy that would support folks entering into this world of, of policy and politics with a mindset on collective wins and kind of personal integrity and that each of our stories do matter and influence how we can build relationship to make more inclusive and hopefully better for our planet and our people policies. Um So really thinking about, you know, how do we teach people to, to be in this, in, in politics in ways that don’t just recycle and repurpose the same kind of oppressive systems that, that got us to today. Very lofty.

[00:08:06.25] spk_0:
Of course, we’re gonna talk about what Amy sample ward was thinking about investigating, talking to people. This all sounds, it, it all sounds very

[00:08:48.22] spk_2:
freeing. It was incredibly freeing and honestly, because it was in Berlin and I normally live out in Portland, Oregon ha, having nine hours difference. Uh also was freeing in my calendar. I went from having, you know, my days are 8 to 4 scheduled meetings to there’s a lunch and then, you know, maybe I’ve got an early morning pacific time check in with a staff person and that was it for what was scheduled, you know, really being able to have the, the freedom in your scheduled day to, to think and do work and do work and think in the ways that you want to was a huge gift.

[00:09:00.67] spk_0:
Uh And you, you took time off from work, right? You, you reduced to 15.

[00:09:06.21] spk_2:
Yeah, I reduced my hours but I didn’t fully step out so that there wasn’t also like an administrative burden to change all of our processes or, you know, I could still run payroll like, you know, those types of things.

[00:09:19.97] spk_0:
And uh is this fellowship a paying gig? Do they?

[00:09:50.26] spk_2:
No, they don’t. Um They don’t give you the place. I mean, they give you the stipend so that you can cover the cost of having somewhere and they can help you find a place. But um you know, there were folks there who are single and don’t have Children and then we were there as a whole family with a child, you know, so everybody has such different needs with their housing that they, they just support you finding what works for you? Ok.

[00:09:54.44] spk_0:
Ok. Uh And you and your husband Max, uh daughter Oren, did you? You traveled? I’m sure you’re in Europe

[00:10:00.92] spk_2:
must have traveled. Yeah, we actually, we, well, I

[00:10:06.61] spk_0:
know you were in, I know you were in Warsaw, Poland. Yeah, because we got you for the 650th show from Warsaw.

[00:11:35.21] spk_2:
Yes, we did spend some time in Warsaw um doing some project collaboration work there. Um And then they got to experience Warsaw where I’d been before but they hadn’t. And then, uh the other trip that we took was to take Oren back to England where we used to live and show her around London. Um go, you know, she got to see some proper castles. That’s really what she wanted. Um And all the fellows, uh and Max non went on a trip down to Stuttgart, which is the, the home of Bosch uh as a company and uh history. And that’s also where the Bosch affiliated hospital is. And, um got to see so many other parts. It’s certainly the first factory floor that I’ve walked, uh and got to see, you know, this mix of, of kind of classic industry, you know, building these things in a, in a building altogether, mixed in with more of the recent tech innovations of, you know, a little robot that delivered you the parts that you needed to inspect. Um And if you got in the way the robot would stop, but then get very frustrated that you were never getting out of the robot’s way for it to go deliver its parts, you know, um things like that. So it was a really cool experience in getting to see really so many other sides to the world that, you know, II I get stuck in my nonprofit space and, and think about our work. Um So it was really cool. That’s

[00:11:53.75] spk_0:
the free, the free, uh a luxury for three months, you said? Yeah, you there three months, right? So uh what, what were you uh investigating thinking about? I’m sure you had meetings, you were talking to people.

[00:13:15.62] spk_2:
Yes. So many meetings, so many conversations. But my focus really. And though, you know, of course, I’m just interested in general meeting with folks who are trying to make the world better and, you know, I had lots of conversations or questions with folks to say, you know, what are you trying and what’s working? What did you try that didn’t work? Like, how do we, how do we get traction? How do we succeed in making the world better? Of course. But the start of all of my conversations and my meetings with folks was this kind of one I know you’re gonna say lofty. But one big question, which was what does an internet that is actually built on safety and freedom and sovereignty look like? And can we build that? And there were a lot of people who, you know, didn’t think it is possible. Um That, that, that, that those, you know, true freedom and true safety and true sovereignty couldn’t all be achieved like they, they couldn’t all three be at the same time or that a better internet wasn’t possible. Um But there also were people who were like, yes, it is possible and we can build it and please can we start yesterday? You know. Um

[00:13:49.21] spk_0:
So I, I got my first interruption. So the uh the, the folks who say No, it, it, it can’t be done. Do they feel that we missed the, the opportunity to have built the internet that you described or is it more that it was never achievable? Not that we not that we went about it or allowed it to develop on its own in i in the wrong way or unobstructed? I

[00:16:49.31] spk_2:
think that honestly, the folks who had the most pushback um in my conversations were folks who were honestly pushing back on my view of the internet now, you know, saying, 00, it already is safe. It already is free, right? Um And so it was less that internet isn’t possible and more like discrediting the place from which the conversate the question is being asked, you know, um and that we can, we can make a few policies and like, we’re, we’re good, you know, the internet’s good as it is. Um And there were also a lot of folks who felt that my focus on those three aspects was maybe the issue for them that, that safety, everybody agreed. Yes, the internet should be safe. Um Not as many people agreed. It should be free. And no, I don’t mean free by cost to access it, but like, what does freedom for each of us look like online? And I think that’s where folks had a little bit of like, but what does that mean? And, and can it be safe if it’s free? Right. Which are important conversations, but I, I think yes, it can be. Um But a lot of folks felt like sovereignty and these conversations about how do we acknowledge and establish sovereignty as communities was me saying it’s all anarchy, nothing matters. You know, there, there are no rules which is really honestly the opposite of sovereignty. Sovereignty is saying I want you to acknowledge that I have rules because my community has said this is what keeps us free and safe, right? Or, or whatever. Um And that the view is, that’s the role of government. But I think honestly, and I’m not trying to like, take this down a, a deep rabbit hole, but I really don’t think that a structure for something like a global system of the internet where we are all interacting all over the world, you know, regardless of which country’s government we we may live under isn’t enough to say that the internet could be free and safe and supportive and, you know, successful in all these ways because all these governments have issues with each other. And like the, you know, there’s communities within a country that are different from each other. Um And they’re there, I think should be passed to be able to say this is what this is, what’s right for our community. Um And again, I’m not trying to like devolve everything down into, into chaos, but I also don’t think I could accept the notion that what we have today. Is working. Um So I’m, I’m mostly saying it has to be something else and not that I have all the answers. Oh my gosh. If I had all the answers, what am I doing? Sitting over here holding on to them, you know, like, but, but we need to have the open space to find those answers or create those answers together and say, what could it be like versus saying this is good enough. Let’s put a policy that says, you know, don’t, don’t take it or something and, and that’s it.

[00:17:47.60] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Donor box, quote donor box text to give led one of our more successful fundraising events, a concert sharing the keyword short code and scannable QR code made giving easy for our supporters and they did give that’s from Josh Young, Executive director of Hydrating Humanity Donor Boxx, helping you help others. Donor Boxx dot org. Now back to a post fellowship conversation with Amy Sample Ward

[00:17:54.86] spk_0:
who were some of the folks that you were talking to?

[00:18:47.33] spk_2:
Yeah, good question. Um It was really a why I felt really interested in making sure I was talking to a lot of different folks because as you know, even the N 10 community has, you know, all different kinds of nonprofits missions, of course, people of all different departments in an organization, but also consultants and tech companies and foundations and you know, all these different folks. So I was meeting with of course, nonprofits um themselves, folks who see themselves in kind of a nonprofit technology vein, but also folks who are focused on um supporting refugees and connecting them with jobs and they kind of see that technology has to be part of that, right? Um But then I was also meeting with think tanks and foundations and folks who are, you know, kind of advocating or, or resourcing the movement around the internet and on other sides, you know, whether that’s giving money or, or talking to policymakers and government. Um So really talk to folks all across that spectrum and folks in Berlin, folks in Germany and folks more broadly in the EU,

[00:19:18.65] spk_0:
all right. Um I, I think before we, we talk about some of the folks who said, you know, let’s achieve this ideal internet and, you know, you said, let’s start yesterday, what you, you, I, I think it’s valuable for you to summarize where you’re coming from. What’s, what’s your sense of uh of our internet, our technology space and, and you know, it’s uh it’s utility for, for nonprofits.

[00:20:08.89] spk_2:
Yeah, I think that I believe all technology, including the internet should be something that every person, regardless of where they live or whether or not they have a job or how much money they have or, you know, what their interests are, can find AAA way um to be included there, whether they want to help create part of the internet or watch cat videos, you know, whatever they want that this is really a, uh this is really something that is for everyone. And I think a big challenge with that today is um, lack the lack of certain policies that make it accessible and affordable and available, you know, you know,

[00:20:28.82] spk_0:
let’s just start with accessibility. Right. There are pockets of the world and certainly of the United States where the internet is not taken for granted,

[00:23:08.24] spk_2:
right? I mean, there’s more than 45 million people in the US who couldn’t even have sufficient broadband internet to like be on a zoom call with us right now. You know, so the idea that, um, and I’m not saying this is your idea, but I, I do see out in the media, this perception that it’s like other far away places that don’t have the internet, we don’t have the internet all over the US too, you know. Um, and even the pandemic has not accelerated real work to address that, you know. Um, but there’s also the piece of commercialization around the internet. I think that has, of course, come from a lack of policies that, that made it so that, that couldn’t be the case. And the fact that of course commercial companies are the largest lobbyists and so they are able to make sure that the policies continue to work for them. But, you know, the number of folks who think the internet is Facebook and don’t leave Facebook and that because that’s all that they know that means again, they don’t really see how they are part of shaping or making or engaging in, in this global resource we have but also are a victim of, of what that commercialization means. The bubble that Facebook has created all of the, you know, algorithmic bias and hate that comes from that. Um So finding ways where both from the actual access point like communities could own their own networks and have the, the jobs and the profits from managing that all the way up to lots more people creating those apps or those tools, you know, I, I don’t think we need to build an internet where every single person in the world would ever use the same app because not every single person in the world needs the same app. Not everyone has the same phone, not everyone has the same computer, you know, like we don’t need to say that success in technology is when every single person is using it. It’s just when every person that it’s right for is using it, you know, and um building tools or online resources or websites or whatever else that, that aren’t viewed as like scale to the X forever and just, oh great. We succeeded. Everyone that needs this tool is using it, you know, and, and that’s good. Um But that’s really not again because of the commercialization of so much of the web. That’s not how it’s how it works right now. That’s not the incentive. Yeah.

[00:23:41.94] spk_0:
The commercialization, the access issues, the, the cost issues. Yes. Uh, there, I, I think probably, uh, a lot of, or all of nonprofit radios listeners, you know, we, we, we probably take the internet for granted. You wake up in the morning, you click in and it’s there. Um, and your technology is at your, at your bedside when you wake up. Although Beth Cantor would tell you that it should not be. You should

[00:23:44.03] spk_2:
not have to not be, not

[00:24:24.50] spk_0:
be, but the reality is, it’s, it’s, if it’s not at your bedside, it’s uh it’s in the, just the next room over, it’s very close and, you know, so, and it, it works 99.999% of the time. Uh I had someone in uh my, my plan giving Accelerator course he is uh is in based in Malawi. He didn’t even have stable electricity every night. For him. Our meetings were at night time. Um Three o’clock Eastern was nine or 10 o’clock. I think it was nine o’clock, nine pm for him in Africa. Standard time. He didn’t even have reliable electricity each night, let alone reliable internet though, right?

[00:25:24.65] spk_2:
And I think sometimes there’s this misperception again, not saying that this is your misperception, but um more broadly that folks that aren’t online don’t, don’t know things right. There’s so much that um we assume about folks who are not online and it isn’t that they don’t still know the news or that they still don’t, you know, or that, or that they don’t want to be online. It’s just that there are so many other barriers in the way, um, that are structural, not, you know, they’ve never heard of the internet and they don’t know what it is. Um, and so access isn’t just saying like, oh, yeah. Well, there was a, you know, we saw this in the pandemic um in the first, you know, year especially like, oh, well, we know all these kids aren’t in school and all these people need the internet. So we put up a, a wifi signal in this field. You can just drive over. Oh, and we’re just gonna sit in our car for four hours and work and try to do school. Like, what are you, what, how is this a solution? You know? Um So there’s, there’s so much that goes into that and always remembering that folks who aren’t online aren’t unaware, they’re just experiencing a bunch of barriers that they didn’t create

[00:26:16.81] spk_0:
it. It creates frustration. Yeah. Frustration and anxiety because they’re left behind. They know they’re left behind. They can’t access what uh what they know is available to lots of other people. All right, let’s, let’s bring it back to uh uh Germany Berlin. So you met with lots of folks who said, you know, yes, we can achieve this, this uh more equitable, more accessible, um, safer uh uh internet. Um What, what do they, uh, I don’t know, what, what do they want to do? Are you gonna, are you coming back with a bunch of partners that you’re gonna start lobbying and, and policy

[00:29:07.54] spk_2:
paper? Yeah, I think, I think we definitely were able to, um, build stronger relationships with organizations. We maybe new or even tangentially new. Um, because antenna is an, a global organization, there are folks from all over the world that are already in the community, but just the value of actually showing up at their office and sitting down for an hour, you know, really goes a long way and in building trust and relationship. Um But I think the other piece was having the energy that comes from conversations where people are not disagreeing with the premise of which we’re even trying to talk about but saying like, yeah, we are. No, we already agree like, let’s get to this part and really validating for folks. No, you’re not the only one like I’m from this community that you’re welcome to be part of or maybe you are, you know, know about, but there’s this whole n 10 community of people who also think an internet like this is possible and also want to build it, you know, you are not alone trying to like work in your tinyt corner and, and find a way, right? And whatever corner you’re in is needed. We don’t all have to do the same thing. We shouldn’t all do the same thing, right? Like you, if, if policy is your thing, go, go work on that. If, you know, supporting refugees, transitioning into jobs is your thing, go do that, you know, like wherever you are in the work is the right place to be. Um And so those were really, I think validating and generative conversations, especially for folks who felt like they were being told there was only one way to do this work. Um And you know, the only policy recommendations we want are policies that, you know, address A I, for example, lots of A I conversation in the summer in the US and, and everywhere else in the world, you know, and I kept saying, but there might be applications of technology that are specific to what they think A I is today. But wouldn’t it be better to write policy about any way that data was being used from, you know, a, a person or uh where, what, what accountability looks like for when there is harm. I don’t care if they used it in an A I garbage machine or they used it in my health records. I I should get to have the control, right? So helping folks reframe that it doesn’t have to only be a single issue or a single topic like that, that it’s all connected, it is all related, all of this technology work. Is connected and whatever piece you can work on, please go do it as well as you can. You know,

[00:30:07.82] spk_1:
it’s time for a break, increase donations and foster collaborative team work with Kila. The fundraisers. CRM maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser. CRM goes beyond a data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth. Visit, Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals. Like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:31:40.87] spk_0:
Thank you, Kate. Share share. That’s fair. Who can you share nonprofit radio with? I’d be grateful if you would give it some thought. Maybe it’s someone you work with somebody, a, a colleague, a peer, somebody, you work for your vice president, your CEO perhaps your board, I have gotten, I’ve gotten uh emails through the years that we stimulated a board conversation or I shared this show with my board and we were gonna talk about it at the next meeting, you know, friends and nonprofits people you used to work with assuming you don’t hate them still, you know, if, if they, if they fired you, you’re probably not gonna share this fabulous show with them. So, all right. So that’s out if they fired you let that go. Uh, maybe the job before that, the, the job you didn’t get fired from. I hope that you haven’t been fired. You know, you haven’t been fired that much. Um, nonprofit radios, exemplary listeners. So, never fired. Right. But if in the off chance, all right. So you’re not gonna share it with those folks who let you go. But everybody else you used to work with folks you used to work with. Perhaps I’d be grateful if we could expand the audience a bit. If you could share this show, I believe it’s helping you otherwise you wouldn’t be listening. Who else can it help? Who else ought to be listening to nonprofit radio? Please share with them. And that’s Tony’s take too,

[00:31:49.06] spk_1:
Kate. We’ve got, but loads more time. Let’s go back to a post fellowship conversation with Amy Sample Ward.

[00:32:12.84] spk_0:
This is all very interesting because you can correct me if my perception is wrong. Please do my perception is that Europe is much further ahead of North America. Forget the continent, the United States in terms of data security. Uh There’s the, there’s the GDPR in terms of holding uh holding the large tech companies accountable, you know, suing I see more lawsuits and, and, and successful either settlements or legal out other legal outcomes against uh uh meta Google. I see more of those. I see.

[00:33:15.13] spk_2:
Yeah, I think that I think that there are, I think there are far more um pieces in place in Europe, in the eu than there are in the U SI. Don’t think that they are adequate or, you know, fully functional to the needs of communities. Um And people, and there’s still a lot of them that are in flux, you know, the EU A I policies are, are still being shaped even though they’ve been discussed as if like here’s what they’ll do and it’s great that they’re actually not done, you know. So yes, GDPR is in place. But um there’s, there’s still a lot to be shaped, there’s even more to be shaped in the US. Um But yes,

[00:34:31.76] spk_0:
all right. That, that, that’s why I mean, I’m, I’m not hearing from you that there’s an attitude of complacency, you know, we’ve, we, we’ve achieved and I not, not that I, not that I expected you to say that, but just recognizing that they are further along, they’re, they’re, they hold companies, especially that I’m particularly interested in the company accountability uh around data usage algorithms uh forced, you know, uh forced uh usage like the way threads you have to be on Instagram to use threads. You, if you drop one, you lose the other. You know, I don’t, that, that rubs me that, that to me is it’s just unfair but they uh not, not to that particular degree that, that the eu has figured that out, but generally they seem to be more demanding accountability of, of the of the big tech companies, right? But, but not, but there’s a lot more work to do. I understand. OK. OK. Uh Is there a, is there a story you can tell about some NGO or other, other organization or person that feels like?

[00:34:36.94] spk_2:
I mean, I think we

[00:34:39.70] spk_0:
got something really good. Let me tell you about it. Yeah,

[00:34:48.26] spk_2:
that there’s no resolution that I have to offer. But I think, you know, this, I want to acknowledge that this is, these are the questions I sit with all the time. This is what my work is around and I’m not expecting every listener to be like, oh yeah, of course, like nodding along with me, like if this is your first time thinking about this because you spend your day on a different topic, that’s totally fine, you know. Um Welcome, welcome,

[00:35:11.63] spk_0:
welcome to a new conversation. Yeah, welcome to join or just take

[00:35:58.77] spk_2:
away them. Yeah. So I was, I wanted to offer this because I think it’s a, a way to root these ideas around sovereignty and freedom and safety in a real example. So we’re not just thinking of like some future world and trying to root it there, but, but a way to think about it now. And um we had the opportunity because another fellow um while I was who ended just maybe two weeks after I arrived. Um Kamal, he had created this um big event and, and number of meetings and brought a delegation of folks from Tuba uh Island Nation in the Pacific. Um And it was incredible to hear from them and to meet them. Um But, but really what’s happening there and why they came is um you know, island nations are, of course on the front lines of climate change and the impacts of climate change. Um As you are, we’re recording this as you’re hunkering down for, for a tropical storm, you know,

[00:36:19.11] spk_0:
medal on my beach. Yes,

[00:40:25.63] spk_2:
yes. And what uh what came out while we were, while, while the delegation from Tuvalu was actually in Berlin was they were um climate scientists have previously said their home, their land will be on uh uh unsustainable for living um for their community in this century. And that has been updated because of the impacts of climate change and the acceleration of, you know, the world. Um And they’re now saying within potentially 20 years and what does that mean for these people? Right? These are, these are real people, these are people who are having babies and having jobs and having lives, right? Um To not just have your world change because of climate change, but literally have your homeland underwater, completely, go away, the entire island could be underwater. Um So, uh part of the conversations um with them have been freedom, safety, sovereignty in the internet for a community that cannot say here is our geographic home um in the in this where that we can live at least in that geographic home. Um And so how do we create a digital nation state? How do we digitize place based culture and artifacts and customs and dances and you know, everything else that comes from who you are as, as, as a community. Um How do we digitize it when we can now? And what does navigating social services? What does you know, traveling the world and getting a passport look like digitally through digital governance uh delivery when you don’t have, you know, an address in that country anymore. Um And it’s kind of heartbreaking to, of course, think Tuvalu is not the only uh island nation that will be facing this, this um circumstance. But, but if you think of this happening in a, in a matter of years, it is everyone’s lifetime, it’s not, you know, a century from now. And you kind of like, oh let it go. It won’t be me, right? This, this is us, we 20 years. Well, we are the ones that have to find the path for this, right? And so, um I think those conversations were really um illuminating and I found it challenging to here and witness uh you know, folks responding to say, to kind of think of all of the many pieces of this and say, well, where do you wanna go live? But that’s not the que we’re not, that’s not the, that’s not the top of my question. List, right? Um It is, how are you the the community members in Tuvalu? What things would you need? How would you support the digitization of your own culture, of your own community? What what can we do to build the internet that you need then? How do we build it now so that we can, you know, like you wanna, you wanna build your new database before you migrate your data in, right? You don’t just get rid of the old one and then figure out what to do with the database. It’s this saying we need to build that safe and free and sovereign internet now so that we can support the citizens of Tuvalu existing in that internet before the before they, you know, don’t have the the land of their home. Um And yeah, I just want to offer that as a example, maybe a reminder that climate change is having immediate and real impacts on folks all around the world, but mostly as an illustration of what it means to think about the future of the internet and the need for, for the internet to work differently on a faster scale than like maybe would Microsoft and Google want it to be different, you know,

[00:41:42.29] spk_0:
and, and so many of the nations, people’s communities that are suffering most from climate change are contributing nothing to contributing dely to, to climate change. They’re not, they’re not responsible at all. The the industrial nations are, which are more hardened and more capable and have greater infrastructure and what are we doing to these other folks and how can we help them to help themselves? I mean, yeah, you make me think of just like how they get a driver’s license. How do I, how do I vote in the next election when I don’t, there’s no polling place because there’s no physical location anymore. Jeez. Yeah. All right. Well, I, that’s a, that’s a provocative, that, that’s a provocative case. Thank you. Thank you. Um What else, what else do you want us to know about?

[00:43:13.50] spk_2:
Well, one thing I thought would be interesting to you and, and interested in maybe your take or observations, like I’ll offer a little reflection and interested in your, in your hot take. But I, you know, met with foundations while I was there and, and asked about, you know, what’s a big priority in philanthropy here? What are the conversations and folks named a challenge that I think we all have some feelings about in the US as well, which is um minimum spend out by foundations in Germany. There’s, there is no minimum spend out. Um So there’s many foundations that didn’t spend any money that did not give any grants in a, in a certain year. And that organizations really feel the challenge of that because they don’t, what, what do we even do? Like, are we even, you know, working with you? Are we trying to get money from you. Um So that was a big issue and the other big conversation that felt and people named, you know, I think the US is more ahead of us on this. But um found some foundations starting to have conversations of, of general operating support instead of project specific, you know, funding. Um and what that requires of them, you know, there was a lot of folks saying like, but then what do we put in the grant agreement? What do, what do we expect for the reporting? And I was like, you know, me, I was like, why do they have to report, you know, um but they weren’t asking the questions of, you know, why don’t we trust our grantees or um why have we never done this until now? You know, they were asking very procedural questions like, well, what, what’s the form say? You know?

[00:45:47.23] spk_0:
Uh Yeah, the minimum spend. Um iii I like it uh here in the US. Uh Unfortunately, a lot of foundations consider the, the floor to be the ceiling. So they’ll spend their, they’ll spend their 5% and they met, they met the burden, the regulation and, and so they consider themselves completed and, you know, I don’t know, you know, I see a lot of them, I see a lot of conversations on linkedin about how things ought to be different and, and uh you know, occasionally I’ll, I’ll attend webinars where uh some, you know, foundation CEO panel, you know, they’re talking about what they’re doing anecdotally to, to overcome um the, the, the minimum spend being a ceiling and funding, funding tech as just I, it just, it belongs in everything. I mean, if, if the people are using Word and Excel, they’re using technology in their work. And II, I hope, I hope, I hope there aren’t many nonprofits that are still using uh index cards and, you know, dog eared, uh you know, written pencil spreadsheets like II, I used to do social research on Carnegie Mellon in the, in the late 19 eighties or early, early 19 eighties, 1984. I graduated. So, uh you know, so, but, you know, that’s all anecdotal. I mean, somebody writes a lofty linkedin post, you know, I don’t know, I don’t know whether it really hits home with the, the majority of big, you know, the, the, the biggest foundations that we could all name off the top of our heads that, that control, you know, access to probably 80% of the, the, the foundation capital or something. You know, there’s probably 20% of the cap, 20% of the nonprofit, the foundations are holding 80% if you follow that 28 80 20 rule, uh you know, is, is that, are those linkedin posts and those webinars, you know, are they trickling to the, to those kinds of folks? And are they actually, you know, are these real conversa uh are these heartfelt sentiments a lot of times or, you know, is this um placating, you know, platitudes, lofty, lofty uh academic type conversations that, that don’t result in real change. So you, you can sense my cynicism. Uh Well,

[00:46:36.50] spk_2:
and I, I wanna name also the piece that you said in there about technology. You know, I did ask funders, how are you funding technology? Do you have a, you know, tech capacity building portfolio? Is that something that you fund directly? Do you give every grant, you know, a line item for technology? You know, what, what are you doing? And I didn’t, there weren’t many foundations that had a technology, you know, portfolio or focus or, or, or um grantmaking space. A lot of what I heard was, oh well, you know, it’s 2023 technology is in everything. So we just know that it’s in all of our grants said. Oh, ok. So it must be, you have like a technology budget and every grant to support the tech and they’re like, well, no, because it’s just, you know, part of doing their work, we know they’re using technology. But right, and I said, right, so if technology is part of everything, then it’s nowhere. If it’s everywhere, it’s nowhere to you, you know, and we, you actually need to be providing the support for these organizations to give you this massive report on all of their data. You know, like

[00:47:04.00] spk_0:
you’re saying, you, you you’re saying, you know, that they use it, it’s, it’s ubiquitous. That doesn’t mean it’s free.

[00:47:20.60] spk_2:
Right. Right. And the train just have to use it. Well, is certainly not free, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So, I felt just as, you know, head against the wall as I, as I normally do.

[00:48:38.43] spk_0:
Yeah. You didn’t have to go to, you have to go to the Bosch Fellowship for that degree of frustration. It saved the boss a lot of money there. Um No. All right. You know. So, yeah, I don’t have an answer. I just have, I have cynicism. I, I have a lot of questions, you know, is real change happening. Uh Is it better now in 2023 than it was in 2000? Yeah, I, I think we’ve progressed but, but not far enough and, and new issues are emerging, you know, now there’s on the, we’re, we’re in the midst of just scratching the surface of artificial intelligence. And, um you know, your, your coauthor of a was on a panel with George Weiner and Beth Beth Canter and Alison. Fine. And, you know, we talked for 60 or 70 minutes about the implications, the risks, the opportunities too, you know, but the inequities, uh you know, so that, that, that’s emerging now. So how are foundations reacting to that? What are, are they reacting? You know, it’s, it’s a lot of times it, it feels like the, the, the, the parallel or the analogy is that, you know, how slow government is to react to changes in, in the culture, in society. You know, equivalently foundations feel to me slow to react to what’s on the ground among their grantees.

[00:51:19.43] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, maybe as a closing thought, want a name that I don’t think that even in an equitable world, it’s a, it’s a world where nobody gets upset where harm doesn’t exist, but it’s a world where there’s a path for accountability for that harm, right? It’s not that that perfect isn’t real perfect doesn’t exist. We’re not gonna go to some future equitable world where, where nothing bad happens, you still fall or you still, you know, get in a car accident maybe or, you know, whatever it might be. But, but there’s places to get care and reconciliation and support and restitution and all of these other pieces, right? There’s, there’s ways for us to be in relationship and work through things together. And I think there’s, it came up in some of my conversations, you know, folks thinking like I’m just so rosy eyed, I’m gonna get, oh we’re just gonna have some perfect world, you know, and I think the way that, you know, you are free is when you have not been free, right? The way you know, you are safe is because you have been unsafe. The way that you know, that you are sovereign is because you had to say hey, there’s some accountability that needs to happen because you were not honoring the sovereignty, right? So, conflict is always gonna exist as soon as there are two humans, you know, there will always be conflict. It’s just finding a world where we, we have the infrastructure and the mechanisms for us to manage that and, and be safe and free and sovereign to together in the world. So as we think about, how do we, how do we fund for that world? How do we build an internet for that world? How do we pursue our nonprofit missions for that world? I think it’s the same. It’s both saying there will always be some needs and how many of them can we eliminate so that we are able to really be happy and fulfilled and, and uh supported. Um So I think, yeah, I just wanted to name that. I, I don’t, I’m not looking for some perfect utopia that doesn’t exist but, but a place where, I mean, how many communities today feel like something horrible happened because of content on Facebook and they have a way to do anything about that. I don’t think a lot of communities feel like they have anything they can do about that, you know, um or, or, you know, they experience threats or hate speech online. Do they feel like they have any way to, to do something because they experience that? I don’t, I don’t know many communities who feel like they have a way to do that. You know,

[00:53:00.86] spk_0:
there’s a lot, there’s a lot wrapped up in that. There’s obviously, um, you know, a, a lot of that comes from the, just the inequities of, of capital, you know, uh, if we bring it back to foundations and fund and grantees, as long as the foundations, 20% of the foundations control, 80% of the, of the capital that’s available through private foundation funding to, to nonprofits. The nonprofits are always gonna be at the, at the beck and call of the, of the, of the gran tours. And if the grant tours are slow to change, then, then the redress is slow. It’s slow in coming. It’s, it’s inherent in the inequities of the, the, the financial, the capitalization. Um, you know, in, in terms of communities, you know, there’s always, I mean, there’s a legal redress but a lot of these things that you just talked about, you know, the bullying and, and um just a, a AAA oppression from technology companies. I mean, there’s no, there’s no real legal redress to that. There’s, there’s only, there’s redress to specific wrongs, you know, they breach their contract. Uh, this person committed, uh uh uh I don’t know the, the a digital assault. I’m, I’m calling that that’s not the legal term but committed a digital assault. So, all right. So I have a cause of action, either criminal or civil but, but those causes of action are, are narrow and we’re, we’re talking about bigger issues that there aren’t mechanisms for redress. Right.

[00:53:12.87] spk_2:
All right. Thanks for having that conversation. So, unlike our usual ones, I appreciate this space to get to cover lots of things.

[00:53:50.37] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean, it’s not always, you know, tactical about what to, you know, how to use. Uh, uh GP four plus in, in, in your, in your next fundraising campaign. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s not all about that. So I, I think it’s uh it’s refreshing. Yeah, actually, just talk about some things that are resolvable, but for which resolution is slow in coming, uh difficult to achieve. But nonetheless, nevertheless, a lofty pursuit, a needed pursuit, we never give up never. And

[00:53:56.41] spk_2:
maybe some questions or ideas that, you know, folks listening could go apply to their own work. That is about a different topic too. I would love to hear if folks do that. You know,

[00:55:04.41] spk_0:
the little feedback I get from listeners, uh which I’m not complaining about, I understand podcast listening is, is, is an animal that isn’t given much to feedback. At least at the level I’m on Joe Rogan may get a lot of feedback. But, uh you know, and, and uh the daily he made, but in any case, uh is that, you know, IIII I took this and uh brought it to my CEO or I brought it to my board, you know, we opened a conversation. Uh I asked people to listen. I sent the link to the board so that, yeah, those conversations happen. Yeah. Yeah. Good. All right. Yes. Uh, a lot of space for a, a different, uh, a different kind of conversation. Amy Sample Ward. They’re the CEO of N 10. They’re our technology and social media contributor. If you want to be in touch with them, they’re at Amy sample ward dot org. Uh, and Amy at Amy RS Ward. And uh maybe we should add the Bosch fellowship to your, to your bio officially for

[00:55:08.34] spk_2:
next year. Exactly. Thank you so much for having me, tony. My pleasure.

[00:55:12.44] spk_0:
Good to talk to you, Amy. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

[00:55:23.06] spk_1:
Next week. Donor retention with Boomerang, Ceo Dennis Foa. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:55:26.04] spk_0:
I beseech you find it at Tomm martignetti dot com

[00:55:44.34] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms can say I can’t say I can’t do it. You

[00:55:47.42] spk_0:
can fundraising forms. See it’s a fabulous alliteration, but it’s uh it’s a little tough to say. I know. All right,

[00:56:12.81] spk_1:
fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org. And by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraiser, Crm Vila dot code joined the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals.

[00:56:18.15] spk_0:
Yes, fundraisers, not fundraisers. Ok. Sorry.

[00:56:23.98] spk_1:
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show Social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:56:51.30] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Please go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for August 28, 2023: Employee Benefits, For Employees


Courtenay ShipleyEmployee Benefits, For Employees

We’re examining benefits from the employee’s perspective. What does a minimum package look like? Which extras can you negotiate for? How valuable is your benefits package? Explaining it all is Courtenay Shipley, founder of Retirement Planology.



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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:05.59] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of fasciolopsiasis. If you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, ordinarily, our associate producer, Kate would tell us about the show this week, but this week isn’t ordinary Kate’s family, which is my family is visiting me at the beach this week. Plus my wife is here. Let’s get the martignetti and Amy to the mic to share which nonprofit is their favorite and why? That’s so, we’re gonna start with my brother Andrew. What’s your favorite nonprofit? Andrew? Well, tony, when

[00:01:56.89] spk_1:
I was 16.5 years old, I had to give some consideration to my boy scout, Eagle Scout project as I was previously working on me badges trying to get everything done. Um It was posed to me that the Saint Jude Children’s Research Hospital would be a very good cause for fundraising. So I decided to put together a biathlon in my town and we raised approximately $300 which back in 1984. And that was a pretty good amount of money and it worked out very well. So, I believe Saint Judes Children Research Hospital, uh, very good nonprofit. And, uh, donations were greatly appreciated and worked out very nicely. All right,

[00:02:02.88] spk_0:
congratulations on being an Eagle. You’re not, you’re not. Uh, no, no, we never used the, uh, we never use the past tense. You’re, you’re still an eagle scout, eagle scout for life, right? All right. And, uh, of course, uh, Boy Scouts of America, another nonprofit. All right. Next comes my sister-in-law, Nancy, Nancy. What is your favorite nonprofit? And why is that? So,

[00:02:26.01] spk_2:
tony, I actually have two. and they’re both kind of similar in, in what they do. Uh, the first one is, uh, bows and meows pet rescue. Um, and that is where we got our old dog Hank from and

[00:02:37.82] spk_0:
shout out where is bow? Wow. And meows.

[00:02:48.38] spk_2:
It’s actually in South Carolina. Oh, ok. And, um, then the other one is one love pet rescue. Um, I’m sorry, one love animal rescue. And they are out of New Jersey and that’s where we got our current dog Aspen from. So, I believe that rescuing is the way to go. Um, and, you know, you should adopt and, and, and not, uh, shop,

[00:03:03.11] spk_0:
adopt and not shop and not kill. Of course. All right. Cool. Two nonprofits. Thank you, Amy. My wife Amy. Favorite nonprofit, please.

[00:03:49.95] spk_3:
Yes. Thank you hubby. Um Mine is IC OMF dot org that stands for International Church of Music, which was founded within the last 10 months by my uncle and myself. It’s in Muncie Indiana. The mission is to provide instruments at no cost to Children who are underprivileged so that they can learn how to play music. Um It, it will also be, it is a church that we purchased and so it will be a venue for students to perform so that they can hone their performance skills, um, perform at no cost uh to themselves or their uh group. And, um, also to teach master classes. My uncle has worked in the music industry for almost 50 years and has a lot of contacts through Los Angeles and um, just, he knows a lot of good, very good musicians. And so to bring in um outstanding teachers to offer master classes at no charge

[00:04:18.93] spk_0:
as well. That’s the International Church of Music Foundation IC OMF dot org dot org. Thank you. Thank you. All right. And Kate, favorite nonprofit, please.

[00:04:47.83] spk_4:
My favorite nonprofit would have to be traveling to Dus Incorporated. Their mission is to collect um, different dance, wears dance shoes and send them off to dancers around the world who aren’t able to afford that kind of stuff. And I it would have to be my favorite because my passion is also dance. Um And I was able to actually be an ambassador for their company. And we did like different um costume collections. We’ve done bake sales and I was able to give everything that I earned and collected to Traveling Tutus. And I was able to look on their Instagram and kind of see where all that stuff really went to. So that would be my favorite.

[00:05:19.71] spk_0:
Cool. And they, they uh shared with you their impact. You saw, saw the work that was getting done. International Tutus, travel, travel, traveling Tutus. All right. Thanks everybody. Martignetti Family and uh Amy Drum Love nonprofits. Now, Kate, what’s on this week’s show?

[00:05:24.38] spk_4:
Well, tony, this week we have employee benefits for employees. We’re examining benefits from the employee’s perspective. What does a minimum package look like? Which extras can you negotiate for? How valuable is your benefits package? Explaining it all is Courtney Shipley, founder of retirement plan Technology on Tony’s sake too.

[00:05:48.82] spk_0:
National Make a Will Month continues.

[00:05:52.16] spk_4:
We’re sponsored by donor Boxx, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor Boxx, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot

[00:06:06.09] spk_0:
org. I still love that. Alliteration, fast, flexible, friendly fundraising forms. I’m sorry, go ahead.

[00:06:11.35] spk_4:
Here is employee benefits for employees.

[00:06:49.97] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to welcome Courtney Shipley to nonprofit radio. She is the founder and Chief Plan Ologist of retirement plan Technology, a consulting and registered investment advisory firm for corporate sponsored and nonprofit sponsored retirement plans. She has worked with qualified retirement plans, developed strategies for third party administrators and conducted over 10,000 educational meetings. Number 10,001 is right now. Courtney is on linkedin and her company is at retirement plan technology dot com. Courtney, welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:06:59.99] spk_5:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s a real pleasure to be here.

[00:07:37.44] spk_0:
Oh, I’m glad you are and I don’t, I don’t even mean to cut you short too. I mean, I’m saying this is 10,001, but you’ve already done over 10,000. So this could be number 11,004, 24. We don’t know, I stopped counting. You stopped counting. That’s probably a good idea. All right, but we don’t want to stop counting our benefits, our benefits. And we want to look at this from the employee perspective, I’d like folks who are employees to know uh what they could get, what, whether, what they’re getting is good or not. Um, things like that. So let’s start with what are minimum, bare bones, you know, you’re getting something but not a lot. But, but you’re getting the bare minimum type benefits package. What, what does that look like?

[00:10:48.20] spk_5:
Ok. So when you’re thinking about your benefits package, think of it in terms of your employer is providing your paycheck and then they’re providing these other benefits that in general are kind of building your f your foundation for your financial security in some way. Ok, so you have your paycheck obviously is your largest asset, the ability to be able to work, they’re providing that we know that one, the next one that you might not be thinking about is what happens if you have a health issue. Obviously that’s health insurance, right? Or if it’s really bad, you can’t go to work. Um, you’re out for an extended period of time. That’s gonna be disability insurance. What happens to your paycheck if you’re not around anymore? And somebody else depends on it. That’s where life insurance comes in. What happens if you don’t want to work forever in a day for that paycheck? Well, that’s where your retirement plan comes in. So that’s going to help you build a paycheck in the future from the money that you’re saving today and maybe your employer is contributing to. And so when you think about your, your financial security, from that perspective, that’s, that’s kind of the easy thermometer for seeing, you know, what, what’s good, what’s not good. And then everything else after that, um will fall into a different category for you. For example, maybe you are early on in your career and you know, you’re going to need to get some more education to advance. Um, and maybe those tuition type of reimbursement programs are gonna be useful for you. Maybe you live in a big city and getting to work is a pain. So there’s a, there’s a transportation stipend that you’re given or parking on site. My gosh in the Washington DC area to have parking, what a luxury, um, maybe you’re looking more towards, uh, you’ve got student loan payments and we know with, with many nonprofits, if you stay for a certain amount of time, then perhaps you, you can have your student loan, um, taken care of by the government depending on if you qualify for all of the programs. Um, so that’s another thing to be thinking about or would they pay something towards your student loan, a student loan payback program? You might be looking at like, do they have um discounts with maybe child care providers or someone that can help, you know, your, with your aging parent and, and figuring out what they need to do from a caretaker perspective and this could be also just building out further on like the health insurance piece. Is there something that’s going to help with mental wellness? Is there something that’s going to happen with financial wellness or these different types of programs? Um, and those could be formal or informal? Right? So when you’re looking at what they’re providing to you, you want to have a list of what’s important to you and then you want to also look at their list and say what on this list is relevant to me, right? Because they may have all the benefits in the world. But if it’s not something that resonates with you and you know, you’re not going to use it. Well, yay for having great benefits. But what a bummer that you, you don’t get to use all of them if

[00:11:11.48] spk_0:
you don’t have student loan debt or Children and then student

[00:11:13.39] spk_5:
loan, what I just talked about doesn’t matter,

[00:11:19.08] spk_0:
repayment assistance and child care don’t matter. Um And some places even provide child care, not just right payments, but some, some larger organizations have on-site child care.

[00:11:27.23] spk_5:
That’s usually a very large organization. Yes, for sure.

[00:11:30.15] spk_0:
Or maybe they have an arrangement somewhere. All right. Um You mentioned, you mentioned that these something could be formal or informal. What, what do you mean by in a more? Well, I think we know what, well, go ahead make the distinction. What’s what’s what, what do you distinguish between formal and informal benefits?

[00:12:25.27] spk_5:
So let’s talk about um the financial wellness piece. That’s an easy one. They may have someone that you can talk to that comes along with your retirement plan, for example, or maybe you call the plan’s record keeper to have your, your financial questions answered. Um Maybe it’s a formal program on site where they come every other month and present different topics. And um also one on one counseling, maybe uh as a third tier of that, maybe you have access to software um or budgeting software like you need a budget or something like that where you get that for free being a benefit um of being an employee there. So from a um this comes along with or occasionally we do these types of programming to something that’s more formal where it’s obvious that they are paying for a third party to provide something for you.

[00:12:38.45] spk_0:
Ok. Ok. Um You mentioned life insurance. Is that a common one? Is life insurance common?

[00:13:01.09] spk_5:
Yeah, I would say that that’s a pretty, a pretty common one either for the um for the nonprofit to sponsor to pay for like a basic benefit. Those are usually very inexpensive Um on the employer side to, to have a group life insurance program. Um, and it may not be a ton of coverage. So it may be up to $50,000 or $100,000 or something like that. And then the employee often has the ability to buy up. So if you do have other people that depend on your paycheck, um, that could be a, a really cost effective way to get extra coverage through

[00:13:16.88] spk_0:
work and depending on what level you’re working at you, you might have different degrees of death benefit. So the CEO might have a half a million dollar policy. That could be

[00:13:27.13] spk_5:
possible. That could be possible. Yeah. Mhm.

[00:13:31.89] spk_0:
Yeah. What about, um, what about vesting for these, what we, that, that’s the period you have to wait before certain benefits become active.

[00:13:42.83] spk_5:
So, um, yeah, there’s two ways. So, really, I think what you’re getting at is eligibility, right? How long somebody has to wait before they can enroll in the program, is

[00:13:52.34] spk_0:
it? Yeah.

[00:14:42.48] spk_5:
Is more like uh portability. So with uh like for your, your retirement plan, for example, they may give you an employer contribution or employer your match. And if you left right away without having been there very long, your employer contributions might not all travel with you, they might not all be yours to keep, there could be a investing schedule. So you earn ownership of it over time. Um But with eligibility, yeah, that’s, it’s all over the map. Um I’ve seen it be as soon as day one when you’re hired, I’ve seen um it be staggered. So certain benefits kick in at certain times like your health insurance starts first, but maybe your retirement isn’t until you’ve been there for one year. Um I’m seeing more and more employers trying to make that easier from an administrative burden and also for employees who just want to know how much is going to be missing from their check right by the time they put their own contributions in. So I’m seeing that come down as far as the amount of time it takes to be eligible for these types of programs and also less of the staggering like, well, you get the health insurance this month, you get the retirement this month, you get the life insurance this month, that sort of thing.

[00:15:03.38] spk_0:
Uh Is it fair to include a remote work among benefits? I mean, it’s not a formal package like you uh uh uh a nonprofit would hire uh an insurance company to provide life insurance. But, right. Isn’t that fair? Is, is that a fair conversation to have when you’re talking about uh benefits?

[00:15:57.42] spk_5:
Absolutely. Absolutely. We’re seeing, um, employees, you know, asking for it. Um I would, it’s going to depend on the employer and the flexibility and the amount of work and the type of work that, that you’re doing for them. But it’s always good to ask like, where does this need to take place? But there’s also the other component of how much does your team need you to be around? And how do you use the facetime strategically within your organization to help people’s careers grow over time because a lot of times when we’re talking to an employee, um it’s usually about finances and they’re disgruntled. A lot of times it doesn’t have anything to do with their compensation as much as just the work environment or not feeling like they have a career path. And so being able to attract and retain the talent that you want. It, benefits are really important. But also kind of that, that how we do work now after coming out of COVID. That’s a, that’s a really big question to answer. How does work flow work, how does work get done? How do people uh get to move up in their career at, at your organization?

[00:16:37.80] spk_0:
And I understand your point, you know, in terms of the remote work, uh it it, it varies. But are, are you seeing trends or are, are you, are you seeing a willingness to allow a couple of days a week out of an office but maybe not full time or like, where are you seeing employers settling around the, the virtual work

[00:16:45.54] spk_5:
question that? Well, it’s still kind of all over the place, but I would say that there’s a, there’s a much higher willingness to, I guess if I have to choose a trend, it would be two days, offsite, three days on or vice versa, at least coming into the office twice a week. Yeah, those are, those are probably the most common that we’re seeing now.

[00:17:06.63] spk_0:
Ok. So if you’re asking for more than that, you know, you might not be aware that you might be outside the, outside the norm and uh you may not get it. Ok? Ok.

[00:17:17.68] spk_5:
At this point in time, I think we, you know, we’ll see next year’s trend will be different, probably

[00:17:43.07] spk_0:
fair enough. Absolutely. August of 2023. And, and uh in terms of negotiating what, well, what, what are, what are employers spending on average on benefits in terms of like percentage of salary? Like if, if you say, uh I used to hear, you know, an employer adds 30% for benefits, uh 30% of the comp the, the, the direct cash compensation. They, they’re, they should expect to add another 30% per employee for this bundle that you talked about, is that still, is that still roughly fair that your employer is spending about another third of your, your, your salary on benefits or is that at a date?

[00:18:07.13] spk_5:
No, I think that’s probably pretty close. That’s a great estimate. Anyway, if you have, um, employers who are, who are trying to make those plans, that’s a really good number to aim for. Um, and yes, and you know, there with nonprofits, everybody’s trying to stay under that 20% number for the financial reporting and whatnot for, um, for overhead expenses. And so, um, that also comes into play too with how, how nonprofits wanna divide the, the, the pie out for their overhead.

[00:19:05.62] spk_0:
Uh II I have a lot of trouble with that overhead. You know, those overhead restrictions, people are not overhead, people are arguably your most valuable critical uh required resource that’s not overhead. Like, like that’s why we have benefits. Yeah, not overhead like uh the hardware on the doors, you know, that’s overhead. Well, we got to replace a latch on the door that’s overhead. Uh We’re not, we’re not latches and door knobs and all right. Uh So I, I don’t, but I know 30

[00:19:37.16] spk_5:
percent number is a pretty good one to aim for another. Yeah, another thing that, um, where we see employers fall short sometimes and, and um, employees should take this into consideration is uh a total total compensation statement because a lot of times employers are not necessarily rolling back the curtain on how much these, these types of programs cost. And so it’s important for an employee to know how much extra is being spent like what’s what’s really in their compensation package, you know, these are value benefits and they are worth money. Um So when they’re, when you’re comparing um maybe one job offer against another having that total compensation statement or just even an estimate gives you more information about, you know, the value of your benefits package.

[00:19:55.93] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s fair. Right. You wanna, you, you wanna know the total, I mean, it’s, it’s certainly part of total compensation. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s as much as uh an additional third. So,

[00:20:07.21] spk_5:
but back to my original comment about how um it’s important to have in your mind like what, what types of benefits are important to you, the other part of that is using them because if it uh if you say that an employer matching contribution is important in your 401k or 403 B plan and then you don’t contribute enough to get that match. That’s money that you are, that’s compensation. You are literally leaving on the table.

[00:21:18.00] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s such a big mistake. Yeah, leaving money on the table. But what, what’s, what’s sort of typical now in terms of matching back when I, back in the dark days of my career when I was, when I was a uh an employee, I would, I can’t be an employee anymore. I would be a terrible employee for anybody. But back then I, I used to have this very generous one at a university where I think if we, if we contributed 5% the university contributed seven or 7.5% of my salary. So of course, I put the five in because you want the max, right? You want, I mean, there’s another 7.5% of your salary approaching 10% added to your salary each year by your employer. So, so what, what that, that was uh those are the early 22 thousands. Yeah, those were late 19 9, 19 nineties and early, very early two thousands. So what’s more typical now in terms of AAA match in a retirement plan?

[00:21:26.78] spk_5:
Well, let’s start with how common a match or um a what we call non elective. So thank you for breathing. Here’s money in your retirement plan. Um That is very common nowadays. So if uh

[00:21:39.10] spk_0:
what, what, what’s very common non

[00:21:55.27] spk_5:
or a nonelected or a match. A nonelected is where you’re just receiving the they, they’re just giving you 3% into your retirement account or 5% or something like that. So what you described a minute ago was having to put something in to get something. So you see it both ways and it’s very popular for the employer to be making a contribution. So that’s, that’s one thing to consider is like is this a good benefits package? If you’re getting a an employer contribution in your retirement plan, that is a step in the right direction to say yes, these benefits are, are decent.

[00:22:24.02] spk_0:
Ok. And so while we’re on that right, I’m gonna dig a little deeper on that. We’ll come back to the, to the broader point. But what’s a, what’s a sort of a typical nonelected contributions like 1% to 3? What, what, what, what are you seeing?

[00:23:00.45] spk_5:
Yeah. So um I actually pulled this data just in case from the plan sponsor um defined contribution survey from 2021. Um Both 2021 2022. So what’s most common for, for the, on the smaller side of the nonprofit um Endowment Foundation group is um somewhere around 15% usually gives less than 3% on a nonelected um The next most common, the next most common one is um to give, it looks like between three and 6%

[00:23:09.55] spk_0:
and what percentage of what percentage of the market is giving between three and

[00:23:26.28] spk_5:
six. So for a nonelected contribution, it is about, hold on here. So 30% are giving exactly three in the smaller space and then the 3 to 5 is 15 to, to 25% depending on what size. So those are the most common. Once you get above that 5 to 7% mark, it just drops off completely. So

[00:23:49.57] spk_0:
it sounds like it sounds like roughly 50% are giving between three and 6%. Is that

[00:23:53.44] spk_5:
right? Yeah, we’ll call it in that range three

[00:24:09.91] spk_0:
to six or is it 3 to 5? 3 to 6? Yeah. Ok. So roughly 50% are giving 3 to 6%. All right. So if you’re in the 3 to 6% non, that’s a nice, that’s a nice group. You get, even at 3% you get an additional 3% added to your salary. So. Ok. Ok. So now let’s go back. All right, I just wanted to drill down on what, what’s, what, what it’s looking like. So now your bigger point was uh something that I don’t remember now because I made you digress. Uh We start, you, we uh you have a lackluster host. I, I promised we’d go back but we will. So

[00:24:34.74] spk_5:
well, if you want to know what the most common matching contribution is,

[00:24:38.91] spk_0:
you drill down on the nonelected. Thank you. I knew one of the number. Ok. So what does, what does those numbers look

[00:24:58.86] spk_5:
like? So matching is, is more popular, more, more organizations offer a match than they do the nonelected. So, um, in the matching space, you’d see that 4% is the most common. OK. 4% is the most common. And then the next most common thing after that would be 6%. So imagine how much,

[00:25:05.92] spk_0:
how much do you have to contribute to get the, is it one for one typically it’s probably

[00:25:11.16] spk_5:
one for one. Yeah.

[00:25:12.76] spk_0:
Ok. So you give 4% you contribute 4%. They contribute another four.

[00:25:18.78] spk_5:
Yeah. Well, if you give one, they match you one all the way up to 4%. If you’re putting four. Yeah, you get the full match. So, yeah,

[00:25:25.83] spk_0:
I, I think it’s smart to do the, the four because your, your employer will give you the, uh, the max, whatever your max happens to be, if they will match it, you know, if they’ll go to six, look, you’re, you’re getting more than a 5% increase in compensation. It’s not direct cash compensation. It’s in your, it’s in your retirement plan, but they’re still taking money out of their pocket and putting it into yours,

[00:26:04.47] spk_5:
retirement is a long way away. Um, most of the time you’re gonna need to save between 10 to 15% is what we always recommend because that usually gets most people mathematically on track for retirement. So if you’re coming in and you’re putting in four and they’re putting in four, you’re almost there. You know, so it’s getting you, it’s nudging you the right direction to get to. You’re about halfway. Mhm. Yep.

[00:26:36.90] spk_0:
Yep. Ok. So I want folks to know, you know, if their, if their benefits are, are crummy, if they suck, I want people to know that they, you know, maybe can get negotiate for more. I mean, if you’re, you know, if you’re at if you’re at a nonprofit and you’re looking for a raise and your employer says no raise is not. We don’t have the cash. Well, what about the benefits? Can we tinker with the benefits? A little? You, I’m, I’m the max is now for. Well, they, they may have machinations to go through, right. Uh, their, their plan may, their plan may not allow an increase, but there are other benefits. You know, we’re not talking only about retirement. You could start negotiating around your health care policy, uh health care plan or your disability or the life insurance or the transportation stipend or the tuition reimbursement or the parking or the student loan debt, the debt repayment. So, you know, you can, if your employer says no, no raise this year, well, can you re tinker with the benefits a bit? Right.

[00:27:07.75] spk_5:
Did you just ask for your birthday off? Right. Exactly.

[00:27:08.90] spk_0:
We didn’t even talk about days off. We didn’t even, we didn’t talk about days off. Thank you. That’s a great one. What, what are standard days off? What should we be getting? What does it look like

[00:27:47.88] spk_5:
that’s all over the place. Unfortunately, I don’t have really good statistics on all of that, but I would say that, um, you know, the longer that you’ve been in an organization, the more vacation days you typically earn, that’s a, that’s a trend that we see. Um walking in, uh you know, having no longevity with the company, you’re going to get far less and there we are seeing a trend towards just days off versus having to specify. Is this a sick day? Is it a vacation day? So, giving a little bit more flexibility about the combination there, um There’s also the ability to accrue hours as your longevity increases with the um so accruing, you know, eight hours over this period of time, you know, if you worked this long, you get this many vacation days, that sort of

[00:28:15.93] spk_0:
thing. There’s also the carryover. What, what are you allowed to carry over from year to year versus hopefully you’re not losing vacation time or, or doing, please, please don’t lose, I mean, it’s paid time off. Yeah. And so that’s another that and since you, you said the birthday, that, that, that’s right in line with what I was thinking in terms of negotiating. All right, I can’t get a raise. Can I get an extra week off next year? That’s a week of unpaid time. I mean, paid time that you get to take off that has value, that’s valuable. You’re lessing, you’re working one week less for the same amount of money because the, the employer said no raises for next year. So can you negotiate around time off?

[00:29:05.87] spk_5:
One of our very creative clients decided that you mentioned the, the time off that expires and so they allowed people to instead who are going to lose it, be able to take that turn it into cash and put it towards their student loans. So that was a, a creative way that they, you know, they help them out that way. Now there are some tax implications, there’s some tax implications, but overall, like this is a nice, this, that was a nice gesture for sure. Like, don’t, don’t lose everything, don’t lose these days. Get some cash value for it.

[00:29:43.82] spk_0:
Right. So that, that was income, I guess they had to report that they had to report that. Correct. That transfer as income. All right. All right. So be, but, but days off, if you can get an extra week off next year, that’s not, you don’t have to report, that’s not a taxable event, an extra week off, but you’re working one week less to get the same amount of money. So you’re that consider that a raise, right? It is a, it’s a raise, work days for the same amount of money I got a raise. So, you know, be creative about your negotiating, don’t just accept, ok, no raises next year. Fine.

[00:30:06.42] spk_5:
But if you, if you’re talking about leadership too, um a lot, we’ve, we’ve had some of our clients that are trying to attract new executives in either CEO CFO hr uh C hr O, that sort of thing. Um There is another benefit we

[00:30:11.51] spk_0:
have, we have Jargon Jail on nonprofit radio, the Jargon Jail. C hr O what the heck is

[00:30:17.36] spk_5:
that Chief Human resources officer.

[00:30:19.79] spk_0:
All right. All right. Well, I bet I’m not the only one. All right. Cro, all right, you’re out of

[00:31:19.93] spk_5:
jail, you’re out of jail. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, so, uh, it, when, when you’re trying to attract that talent, um, and those people have, there’s not as many of them and they’re hard to find and, you know, they’re hard to retain. And so that’s where we’ve seen some pretty creative negotiation as well. I don’t know who’s listening and if they’re in that type of leadership role, but um being able to, to negotiate, well, help me pay off my graduate school loans. You know, I, if I stay around in three years, then I get $10,000 towards that loan or if, um uh you know, I want to save more for my retirement, I’m trying to play catch up because I’ve had a long career, but I haven’t been as good a saver as I should have been. I’d really like to have a 4 57 B plan. Um, and, and be able to have extra money going towards my retirement. Now, the 4 57 B is a really important non-profit benefit because they’re the ones that get to have it. Uh It can only cover about 10 to 15% of the total population of the employees that are there, but it’s basically a way to save more for retirement. So, uh the funds are at risk if the nonprofit does go out of business to be subject to creditors. But that’s, you know, if you’re the one who’s helping run it, make sure that doesn’t happen. Right. Um,

[00:31:43.92] spk_0:
we’re on the employee side. So the A 4 57 B, yeah, this is not a very common benefit or it is

[00:31:47.23] spk_5:
not all the time. No, it seems to be forgotten by many nonprofits. So, if you are an employee who’s walking into a situation where you have access to one of those, that’s a pretty forward thinking organization.

[00:32:31.39] spk_4:
It’s time for a break. Donor box quote, I regularly experience how donor boxes easy setup and ultra swift pay, fast checkout deliver what we need. Donor box allows us to focus on why we do this, our clients and their needs. End quote. That’s from Jenny N A board member and recurring donor at Organic Soup Kitchen in Santa Barbara, California donor box helping you help others. Donor Boxx dot org. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:34:21.37] spk_0:
Thank you, Kate. It’s still August and that means it’s still National Make A Will Month. Yes, every August National Make A Will month and I use this month to remind nonprofits that wills charitable bequests same thing. They mean the exact same thing, gifts and wills charitable bequests, that’s the place to start your planned giving. Always launch with the simplest gift, the most popular gift, gifts in Wills. And I’ve been posting on linkedin all month by the end of the month, I’ll have all of my 18 reasons why wills are the re wills are the place to launch your planned giving. Like the one that says that uh it’s by far the most popular gift as I already mentioned and how easy it is for your donors, how easy it is for your staff that it helps you build endowment, it ensures your sustainability. So there’s I think five or six ideas right off the top of my head, the full 18 are on linkedin. They will all be there by the end of next week and for a lot of you listening weeks after. If you go to my linkedin, you’ll see all the 18 reasons why wills are the place to start your planned giving fundraising. I hope you are enjoying the the mass celebration around National Make A Will Month. I I we can almost, it can’t contain the excitement around National Make A Will month for those of us who are celebrating the holiday. That is Tony’s take two Kate.

[00:34:24.28] spk_4:
We’ve got but loads more time. Let’s get back to employee benefits for employees with Courtney Shipley.

[00:34:34.82] spk_0:
What kinds of details? I mean, we’ve talked some about the details like uh vesting versus um what was the uh eligibility? Thank you. Yeah. So what other, what other like details should we be drilling down about? I mean, so you know, we talked about retirement planning a good bit. But what other detail type things are, are like devils in the details. We should, we should we be thinking about,

[00:35:43.60] spk_5:
I think you should be thinking about ease of use and getting help. I think those are two important parts. So uh when you get a whole bunch of benefits that are thrown at you, do you really want to sit there all day and read? No, you want it, you want it to come with a person or you want it to come with at least a chat bot or something to help answer questions. Everybody’s different. They’re going to use benefits slightly differently. And so it’s important for you when you’re choosing between your different health care packages or um, your different uh offerings to be able to have somebody that you can, you can ask. So I think that that’s a very important thing to be looking for is who’s gonna help me make these decisions back in the day. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Support. Yeah, that is support. Yeah. So I think support is very

[00:35:46.50] spk_0:
important. And are you, are you meaning support in the nonprofit or support from the provider that offers the life insurance or the disability, et cetera? I

[00:35:56.47] spk_5:
would say it could come from either way but probably more commonly from the provider

[00:36:01.57] spk_0:
from the provider.

[00:36:03.87] spk_5:
But hopefully, then hopefully when the nonprofit has chosen these types of benefits, they’ve, they’ve figured out a way to get help to their employees. That’s a big cultural difference. I think that if you are looking at your benefits package, your compensation package, the offer that’s coming to you and you see that they have the ability for you to talk to people to help you make decisions. That’s gonna tell you a lot about their culture right there that they care about you as an employee.

[00:36:31.10] spk_0:
So I think that’s very important and the other was uh ease of use,

[00:37:12.15] spk_5:
ease of use. So how, how do they, how do they put all these disparate systems together? Your benefits package is not going to be provided by the same provider? Do you have a website where all of the documents are housed? Do you have videos on, on one page? Is there portal? What, what makes your life easier? Do you have to go to six different phone numbers if you need to get help or you need to submit a claim or you need a, you have a question answered about something. So how has, how has the nonprofit put this together to make it easy for you to access it? That counts for something

[00:37:27.83] spk_0:
for sure. What about other uh other benefits that uh you might be able to negotiate for things we haven’t talked about uh like little special things that you’ve seen that folks have, folks might be able, like I said, a able to, to weed the uh their nonprofit or their potential employer. You know, one of two situations might be at a nonprofit or it might be weighing offers now or, or in the future, uh weighing competing offers. What, what are the things have you seen folks? I don’t, I hesitate to say, get away with, but, you know, get, get access to that, uh might not have been offered, uh, you know, in the first round.

[00:39:03.40] spk_5:
So the, um, if, if they have the ability to, to ask for um, a health savings account, there’s only certain types of health insurance policies that go with it. The, the HS A eligible, um, programs, it used to be called high deductible. But that’s kind of a misnomer. You start to do the cost analysis, but the thought is that you can put money aside into the HS A, that money can stick with you throughout your time. You can continue to fund it. You can use it to pay your health care expenses. You can keep it rolling until you get to retirement and use it. Then it’s a triple tax free benefit. So it’s tax free going in. You don’t, you know, the, it comes out pre-tax from your check, it sits in there, it can grow, it can be invested, that’s all tax deferred or never to be taxed. If you take it out for health care reasons, it comes out tax free. So that’s an awesome benefit. If they haven’t considered it, you could try it. You know, and you’re saying I want more benefits that’s one of the ways that you might be able to negotiate maybe after you’re already employed there or something to be looking for. So that’s, that’s a nice, a really nice benefit. If you want to use it, it’s a great option. Um, and you don’t see that everywhere.

[00:39:08.26] spk_0:
That’s the HS A, the health savings account. Is that the same as flex, flex spending?

[00:39:17.78] spk_5:
No flex spending is, um, a really nice benefit. But, um, that’s the use it or lose it. So you have to use it within the calendar year on certain types of expenses. The HS A, you never lose it. You just, you can use it to pay for health care expenses. Um, and there’s a list of them on the IRS website that it is always being updated. Um, but you just keep rolling it forward so you can accumulate a pretty darn good balance in

[00:39:36.66] spk_0:
there and the flex spending you have to use within the year. Yes. Pardon me?

[00:39:43.36] spk_5:
I said that’s also a nice benefit to have the FS A. Yeah.

[00:39:46.97] spk_0:
Um, it just, what else?

[00:39:49.08] spk_5:
Uh, 5 29 college savings plan.

[00:39:53.76] spk_0:
Yes. Explain that. I’ve seen those. What do, what do those look like?

[00:40:35.13] spk_5:
Sure. So that’s, um, that’s going to be for folks who have kids more, more than likely, however, it’s for education. So it really could be for anybody if you want to start saving something for going back to grad school or something like that later in life. Um The um it’s money that is set aside and it grows without any tax implications. As long as you use it for education expenses down the road, then it comes back out tax free. Um Employers technically could make a contribution to it if you um if, if there’s access to that so that could be something. Um And it’s, it’s really designed to help with school, like of some sort. So that could be private K through 12 schools. Um room and board tuition, things like that also higher education. So like I was saying before, more of the um uh undergraduate and, and um graduate degrees.

[00:40:54.08] spk_0:
So that, that can be, that can be for anybody that can be for yourself. Children could be grandchildren, nieces, nephews and you, you

[00:41:01.08] spk_5:
can change the beneficiary, you can change the beneficiary. So if you have somebody who doesn’t go to college and your family and you want to use the funds, you can just change your, the beneficiary to you. So there’s, there’s a lot of flexibility with it. It’s a nice, it’s a nice tool that can be used in, in several ways, but mainly you do pretty well if it’s for education.

[00:41:20.56] spk_0:
All right. And those are the 5 29.

[00:41:30.88] spk_5:
So having a um a payroll deducted 5 29 plan, that’s a, so it comes straight out of your check, it’s real easy. Um There’s also, uh and like I said, the employer can make a contribution to the 5 29. That would be extra special. So that could be something

[00:41:46.17] spk_0:
maybe then, you know, you got a, you have an exemplary package. Yeah, that’s not emp 5 29 plan if your employer is contributing a percent or two to it. Right. Ok. That’s that. Ok. This is what we wanna know. Do our benefits suck or they middling or are they exemplary? It’s important to know you want to know where you stand. That’s

[00:42:08.91] spk_5:
right. Um, also on the subject of education, uh, the tuition reimbursement, I think I mentioned that earlier. A lot of them will have a tuition reimbursement program. Um, you could also look at, will they pay for certificates for certain skills or conferences, um, or other types of things that help you with your career long term? Make you a more valuable professional

[00:42:19.13] spk_0:
development. Is there, is there a budget for professional development? Can I get more professional development dollars? No, there’s no raise this year. No, no raise for next year. Right. Well, how about professional development? Uh, can I get $2000 to go to a conference?

[00:42:32.92] spk_5:
Yeah, I think it’s perfect. Right. That’s a great way to

[00:42:35.85] spk_0:
use some other way. I was just thinking of conferences because people are trying to get out more now because that we can. But, uh, can I get, can I get some professional development money? Ok. It’s great. Courtney. What else? What

[00:43:01.22] spk_5:
else. Um, well, I, I want to point out that that’s kind of a win in both directions if they go and get a certificate that makes them a more valuable employee to the nonprofit. Like, that’s a win, win for everybody. Right. You’ve got more skills, they’ve got more skills that you have. Um, I think the

[00:43:02.41] spk_0:
HR O should, the C hr O should recognize that. Right. Exactly. C hr O should know,

[00:43:09.59] spk_5:
um, other student loan programs like a student loan payback program would also be extraordinary on the, on the list of benefits. So if they’re going to give you $50 a month towards your student loan or something like that, that’s a, that’s a big deal. That’s a huge deal as a matter of fact. So, um,

[00:43:24.50] spk_0:
meaning it’s kind of rare. Yes,

[00:43:52.65] spk_5:
it’s rare and it’s super helpful because if you think about just looking at how your debt works and paying off extra every month, it reduces the life of the loan. It saves you massive amounts of, of interest payments over the life of the loan. So that is a, that’s one that we really like. Now there’s mixed feelings, of course about student loans and, you know, should we should, should they be wiped out the, you know, there’s, that’s been kind of a political

[00:43:57.90] spk_0:
side to it. Yeah. Is it in because there are populations who never can’t afford college or? Yeah.

[00:44:05.14] spk_5:
But, but at the end of the day it’s an attraction and retention tool. So, I think employers should.

[00:44:20.51] spk_0:
Right. Right. Ok. Ok. Anything else we could be, uh, negotiating for if we feel our benefits are on the lackluster side or you exhausted it? If, if that’s it, you know, that’s ok.

[00:44:46.22] spk_5:
I think lunch and learns on different topics are probably another good one. Could you bring in a speaker about XYZ? That’s, that’s kind of an easy one for employers to, um, you know, if you want more knowledge, if that’s what you’re after, have somebody come in and, and, uh, speak on a certain topic or negotiate a discount for us for XYZ product. So, we’ve seen, we’ve seen that happen sometimes where, um, even if it’s just the coffee shop next door and you get 5% off or something, that’s, that’s a bit, that’s nice. Yeah, because if you think about it, I mean, most nonprofits are, are heavily involved in their local area. So, you know, can they leverage that to also provide more benefits for their employees?

[00:45:09.28] spk_0:
Ok. Ok. Excellent. Think on the local level too. All right. All right. Um, what else, what else do you want folks to know about from the, again, you know, of course, the, from the employee perspective that, uh, way, maybe ways of negotiating or what, what else, what else would you like folks to know about?

[00:46:13.01] spk_5:
Well, I think when you, when you go to negotiate it’s always important to recognize the you the benefits, the compensation, all of that is going to vary based on how large your employer is. Um the their budget, right? The different constraints that they may have um from outside where they’re located. Um So it’s important to remember that you wanna have the value conversation about how you’re a valuable employee and that’s why you’re asking for these additional benefits. I think that’s an important thing to remember. Um Because the, it’s easy to say yes to an employee who’s very valuable, right? Um It’s kind of a no-brainer.

[00:46:15.20] spk_0:
So you need to make the case, you need to make the case of, of your value, whatever, whatever value it is, you bring expertise uh experience. Um non for nonn doesn’t have to be formal education. We’re not talking about that necessarily just, you know, what, what’s the, what’s your value as an employee? Not just what do you do, but what do you bring that somebody else can’t bring?

[00:47:45.38] spk_5:
Yeah, or what, what great work have you done? That’s made things a lot easier for everybody or, or what, you know, what are you bringing to the table? Because I, when we’re, when we’re in um conversations with folks who remember that I do um corporate retirement plans. And so when we’re talking with, with people, a lot of times it’s centered around their money and I just need to make more and it’s like, well, ok, but don’t forget that they’re employing you to do a job. And so they, they, they have an easier time when your, your performance reviews are great. So that’s just something to, to keep in mind of what moves the needle, what’s important to the organization, um what fits within their culture. Um When you go, when you go to ask for things. So I think that’s, that’s important to think about. Um And also don’t, if you’re, if you’re comparing two benefits packages, we have clients that just can’t afford to do amazing things, but they do good things and the opportunity to work there is still great and the culture is great. And even though you may not make as much money in the long run, the experience that you get or the um the cause that they serve is, is worthwhile. And so I think that’s one extra level that for profit entities and for profit employees don’t have to think about as much because a lot of the nonprofits really do make a great difference and they are um they’re a different type of work environment. So that’s also something that has value to it that I don’t think we, we think about sometimes.

[00:48:39.61] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely true. Right. The benefits are just one component, 11 variable among many when you’re weighing whether you want to stay working where you are or whether you’re uh considering different options that you may have, you know, a couple of different offers, the the benefits are just one variable and certainly that the quality of the work, the culture equity issues, you know, these are all, those are all value variables as well. All right. All right. How I leave it there then you feel? Ok,

[00:48:42.90] spk_5:
I do. Do

[00:48:43.50] spk_0:
you? All right, I do. But I’m not the expert. You are

[00:48:48.41] spk_5:
fair enough

[00:48:49.39] spk_0:
expert feels good. All right, Courtney Shipley, you’ll find her on linkedin. You’ll find her company at retirement plan dot com. Courtney, thank you very much for sharing your expertise. Thanks a lot.

[00:49:02.69] spk_5:
Thank you so much for having me. I really

[00:49:04.23] spk_0:
appreciate it. My pleasure.

[00:49:14.82] spk_4:
Next week, Amy Sample Ward returns with Reflections on their Bosch fellowship in Berlin. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I

[00:49:17.63] spk_0:
beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot

[00:49:49.76] spk_4:
com. We’re sponsored by donor Boxx, outdated donation forms, blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor Boxx. Fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyer. So it producer Kate Marett Devices and shows. So is our web guide this by Scott Stock.

[00:49:54.49] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for August 21, 2023: The 5 A’s Of Awesome Fundraising


Cara AugspurgerThe 5 A’s Of Awesome Fundraising

It’s a valuable back-to-basics conversation with a bunch of tips you’ve probably never heard. Leading us through is Cara Augspurger from Donorbox.



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[00:00:35.76] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite Heb Mittal podcast. And oh, I’m glad you’re with us. You’d turn me into a mono. Thus, if I had to see that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming?

[00:00:59.48] spk_1:
Thank you so much, tony. We have the five A is an awesome fundraising. It’s a valuable back to basics conversation with a bunch of tips. You’ve probably never heard leading us thorough is Kara Augsburger from Donor box on Tony’s take two.

[00:01:02.29] spk_0:
It could have been the end for me,

[00:01:12.22] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org.

[00:01:21.65] spk_0:
I love that. I love that alliteration. Kate, fast, flexible, friendly fundraising forms, love that.

[00:01:29.32] spk_1:
It sounds cool, but it’s not very fun to say

[00:01:34.42] spk_0:

[00:01:37.39] spk_1:
very tough. Now, here is the five A’s of awesome fundraising.

[00:02:08.04] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to welcome Kara Ox Beger to nonprofit radio. She is a longtime development professional, currently serving as fundraising coach for donor Boxx and focuses on consulting with nonprofits of all sizes. Her expertise is in coaching, annual fundraising, project management and communications. She’s on linkedin Kara Ger with A P, not A B. It’s not.

[00:02:14.32] spk_2:
No, it’s not tony

[00:02:18.75] spk_0:
and the company is at donor box dot org. That’s correct.

[00:02:22.03] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Thanks so much for having me. What a warm welcome pleasure.

[00:02:26.13] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you from Noblesville, Indiana.

[00:02:29.41] spk_2:
That’s correct.

[00:02:30.90] spk_0:
And we’re talking about the five A’s of awesome fundraising. So this is not just, this is not just, you know, lackluster, mediocre type fundraising. We’re talking about awesome fundraising,

[00:02:46.79] spk_2:
right? The five A S, you know, our donor box team coined the term the five A’s of awesome fundraising to really introduce the concept and help people remember the cycle of fundraising. So, you know, identify, cultivate, solicit steward, we just made them a little easier and put an a next to each of them. So we have, it’s

[00:03:22.00] spk_0:
the cycle that we’re accustomed to. Exactly. But all right. So refreshers are important, valuable basics, basics, lots of people trigger, you know, they’ll say, oh, you know, that’s just a good reminder, good reminder. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna share good reminders. Excellent, excellent. So, uh I’ll let you introduce your, your first. A

[00:04:21.71] spk_2:
Well, sure. So we often at donor box, we are working with fundraisers who are really, really good at delivering on their mission. They’re really, really good at um creating innovative programs, but maybe they’re struggling to understand some fundraising fundamentals. And so my job is to kind of create ways to make learning those fun and engaging. And so that’s was the basis around the five A’s. So first we attract new supporters to your organization, you know, that would be identi identification and cultivation and then we ask them to come alongside you by giving, then we promptly acknowledge those gifts, right? And then we account for those donations and we do it again and again and again. So it’s attract, ask acknowledge account. And again, so those five A’s, they’re not fancy, they’re not innovative, they’re nothing new. Um But those are kind of those fundraising fundamentals that successful nonprofits are actively doing and actively incorporating into their communication cadence to bring donors into the life of the organization and really cultivate that sense of belonging.

[00:04:40.93] spk_0:
All right. So let’s, let’s focus on attraction. Yeah. What, what uh what are your reminders there, your tips.

[00:04:51.46] spk_2:
So, you know, you, you need to attract new supporters to your organization and then you need to make sure that your organization is attractive to those. So, uh you want to make sure that you are um actively on social media that you’re telling compelling stories of your mission and action, you’re showing people ways to get involved by volunteering and things like that. So you’re attracting those people, you’re, you know, the fundraising fundamental. So you’re cultivating them to your organization

[00:05:31.48] spk_0:
and some of those uh some of those uh a attraction mechanisms might be as simple as, like, sign a petition. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t have to be come in person or something. We can, we can have, we could have a lift but something that gets people uh initially

[00:05:34.05] spk_2:
engaged. Yeah. You’re aware, you’re building awareness for your organization. Yeah.

[00:05:38.95] spk_0:
OK. That’s another good a but that’s not in awareness. It’s like a subset. So, uh I’m not, I don’t want to pervert the whole donor box. Uh the whole donor box. A team of five A make it six.

[00:05:49.76] spk_2:
We don’t want no.

[00:05:50.75] spk_0:
Every time you say an A word, I’m not gonna say, oh, there’s an A but uh awareness is a subset of attraction and being, being attractive. Talk a little more about the, the being attractive part how you, you know, how you appeal.

[00:06:37.23] spk_2:
Yeah. So you know, you repeat the cycle and you want to keep your organization attractive to your current supporters. So maybe that’s where you introduce a survey or you ask what appeals to them most about the mission. You could uh engage with them through some newsletters, some good communication about what’s going on or, you know, in person. So you can invite them to coffee, invite them to events, invite them to volunteer. Um And it’s not just about doing those things, it is about staying relevant in the minds of your supporters. You know, we know supporters are supporting fewer organizations these days, dollars are limited. And so you really want to stay in the forefront of your supporters’ minds. And so that’s where you really just want to keep that communication cadence. Um going throughout the year, you don’t want to just go, go to your donors when you need something, you want to communicate and build relationship and stay in relationship with them.

[00:07:05.75] spk_0:
Yeah, that is critical. Not only sending solicitations, you know, however many times a year, let’s drill down, let’s drill down a little bit on the, uh, the surveys, surveys. What, what’s your advice around survey? You know, like length? Um, I don’t know, time of year, uh, how to get folks to do the survey, you know, what, what are your tips around those things?

[00:07:53.68] spk_2:
You know, I think my, uh, my advice to anyone is as, um, personal of the ask as you can make it. I think the more, um, engagement you’re going to get around it. So if you could say, hey, tony, I’m gonna send you a survey in the mail or in the, you know, in your email. And if you have five minutes to really give me some insight into what you see, you know, in the organization, boy, I would really value that if I could ask you that on the phone or if I saw you at an event or something like that, you might be more engaged and more apt to complete that survey. So, that, you know, and you can even personalize that at a scalable level through some emails, some make your email look really personal through some mail merges and things like that to really make it seem like you’re speaking one on one to the receiver. So that’s how, that’s an

[00:08:20.22] spk_0:
introductory email. Yeah. Yeah, couple of days I’m going to send you or something

[00:09:13.79] spk_2:
like that or, yeah, I mean, just however the communication, the communication schedule works out for you, you could even, you know, package it together with the survey link or something like that. But yeah, just as, as interpersonal as, as, as possible. So it looks less like it’s from the organization and more from the person who’s sending it, whether that’s the executive director or the communications manager, the development manager, whatever it is. So I think that one on one really feeds engagement. Um, but as far as like length, what we’re seeing that is working really well is micro content so short, actionable. Um, you know, I think if people see how far along they are and in the steps, you know, you’re at step one of five, question, one of five, something like that. That kind of keeps people motivated to complete it as opposed to this never ending survey that, that never ends. I know, I know,

[00:09:14.86] spk_0:
I appreciate the progress bar. You’re 10% or 20% or right, one out of five or something. I like to know that I like to know where the end

[00:10:31.15] spk_2:
is. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you have um, well crafted questions, so you’ve worked with, you know, a board member or your staff ahead of time to determine what is, what’s your outcome on this survey? What do you really want to glean from this information? I’m working, I’m on the board for um, a nonprofit here in uh the Indianapolis area that works um to provide um services to people who are a little food insecure. Um But the foundation, so there’s a foundation that’s set up to, to kind of um resource the food pantry and, and the services. So there’s some confusion right now on, do I give to the church that runs the services or do I give to the foundation or whatever? So, what we’re doing is we’re crafting a survey to say, hey, do you understand the difference between the foundation, the church, the food pantry? How does that work? Um And, and really trying to get to the purpose, our purpose is clarity around our communication and where to direct people to give money, but we need to work backwards and craft the questions so that they really are um short and compelling and impactful and give us the answers that we need. So I think as long as you’re, you’re really paring down um and really honing in on the purpose of the survey, I think you’ll be able to, to draft some short, uh, really, really great questions that’ll, that’ll drive the, the answers that you’re looking for.

[00:10:56.06] spk_0:
You have a maximum number of questions that, that you’re working toward in your survey.

[00:11:13.30] spk_2:
I’d like to stop it. I’d like to leave it at five. I think five is a good number. Um, you know, I think if they’re quick questions, if it’s multiple choice, those would go a little faster than those open ended. So maybe you’d have a little more wiggle room for some questions there. But I think, you know, too, I think there’s always an opportunity for an executive director or someone to step in after you complete the survey and say, hey, tony, those were really great um examples you shared in that survey, would you be open to a conversation to talk a little bit more about what you think and you know, those opportunities, those touch points are really part of those five A’s, you’re keeping that conversation going and saying, I see you and I value the input that you have into our organization.

[00:11:41.30] spk_0:
I think people would be very grateful for like personal follow up. Now, if you’re, you’re sending thousands of surveys, you know, I don’t know. Uh hopefully you get more than a dozen responses. Sometimes surveys can do poorly. So you might, you might only get 12 or 15 or 20 responses and then you can be personal um with, with those, with those folks and look, I mean, you’re thanking them in a way for, you know, for being among the small percentage of people who did reply.

[00:12:09.52] spk_2:
Oh, for sure, for sure. And what, what’s the, what’s the old adage that you ask for it? You ask for money and you get advice, but you ask for advice and you get money. Well,

[00:12:19.67] spk_0:
that, that may result indeed. Or you, or you might, you might get a, a new volunteer or something. You’ll, you’ll certainly get somebody grateful. Uh, after you’ve, you’ve, like, personally followed up and said, you know, your answer to this was important or

[00:12:32.16] spk_2:
whatever. Yeah. It’s an opportunity. It’s an opportunity for conversation, an opportunity to grow that relationship.

[00:12:58.25] spk_0:
Another thing, um, folks have said is that you don’t ask for information that you, uh, you can’t preserve and, and act on like, if, like, if you’re asking a survey question, would you rather we email you or use direct mail or text? Then they give you the answer. You have to, you have to honor their, their answer. Either that or don’t, don’t ask the question. Yeah,

[00:13:14.38] spk_2:
exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re not gonna segregate that information into your data and you end up mailing someone who said they only want an email, then it may have backfired on you the whole process, right? You really,

[00:13:17.36] spk_0:
yeah, then you have hurt the, then you hurt the relationship better to not even just ask if you don’t have the capability for text. Don’t offer communications, you know, by, by

[00:13:26.08] spk_2:
MS for sure, it goes back to the whole big, big goal that what outcome do you want from the survey?

[00:13:33.26] spk_0:
Absolutely. Very true. As you said at the outset, right? All right. Uh You feel OK with uh attract and being attractive?

[00:14:15.40] spk_2:
Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah, identify and cultivate and um really get them introduced into all that your organization offers. So that is a track. OK. Then you’re ready to ask. Oh, you are ready to ask. And I think so many nonprofits think that that ask is exponentially um hard and it’s an exponential, you know, use of time in fundraising. But really if you’re doing these other things, well, that ask gets a lot easier, but it, it is important to ask and if you are only telling, you know, stories of impact and um you know, really advocating for your cause, but you never ask for money, you’re missing a big opportunity there.

[00:14:23.10] spk_0:
Now you ask, could come in other forms too, right? It might be. Now, now we’re talking about something more than, you know, sign a petition, but it could be volunteer.

[00:15:14.76] spk_2:
Mhm Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. One pitfall I see with that though, tony is um a lot of times in a fundraising appeal, I think we sometimes as nonprofit professionals are kind of uncomfortable about that ask and what we tend to do is gloss over it in the fundraising appeal. So, hey, tony. Can you give me $50 or volunteer or share this email? I think it’s really important in a fundraising appeal to have one call to action and if you’re asking for money and for a volunteer and to share the word, guess what people are going to do, the one thing that doesn’t cost them money. So if you’re asking for money, make sure that that’s super clear. And that is the only call to action in your, in your fundraising appeal.

[00:15:47.97] spk_0:
Yeah, I, I didn’t mean to dilute your, your, your, your fundraising. Ask if I was just saying, you know, you could be asking for something else that’s substantial, which is a gift of time. Yeah. But no, I absolutely agree. You don’t dilute, don’t and don’t be humble. You know, you, oh, you know, we hate to ask. But could you, you know, you have, needs, your work is important and you have, needs to, to fulfill that work, to fulfill that mission. Ask with

[00:15:48.71] spk_2:
confidence. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um Fear free fundraising is, is kind of the approach I take there. You, you need to know what you do, why you do, why it’s important, um, what you’re doing differently than anyone else and be really, really proud of that. And when you kind of have those things ingrained in to your thought process, why do you care, then it’s much easier to communicate that to other people? And you don’t feel like you’re tap dancing around it all the time

[00:16:17.36] spk_0:
and, and you don’t want to take for granted that, that people understand all that, you know, because you work in it, day in, day out, week after week, et cetera. But, but everybody else

[00:16:28.17] spk_2:
doesn’t. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:16:31.82] spk_0:
Um, have you seen any, uh, any good, uh, asks lately that you can, uh, you can share?

[00:17:48.29] spk_2:
Well, we’re, we’re getting ready for the biggest ask of the year, right? The year end fundraising season is always a good one. Um You know, I help a lot of organizations really learn the art of appeal, writing. And so, um I’m excited to, I actually have a live in person workshop with a lot of new fundraising professionals in, in about two weeks. And so I’m excited to work with them through that process and see what they come up with. Um But as far as good asks lately, gosh, they’re all over the place. Um We have a nonprofit that we work with called Maya’s Hope and I actually just saw on linkedin before I got on this call, they had a really clear compelling ask to become a monthly donor at $10 a month. And what they show was a picture of a boy in Ukraine and what he, he has special needs and his mom is unable to work right now, has two young Children. They live in a war zone, right? Um But what $10 a month provides for him. There was a photo of it and it was some diapers and some hard to get medication for his, you know, for his situation. And it was saying for $10 a month, um you can give this mom peace of mind that her son is gonna get what he needs for the month because you give to this organization, you put the, the materials in this mother’s hands and relieve her burden and you know, relieve the, the pain that her son is going through because you give to this organization and it was just such a clear, compelling, um, as it really stuck in my mind and I saw it really just a few minutes ago.

[00:18:17.38] spk_0:
Um, it’s personalized. Yeah,

[00:18:19.63] spk_2:
it was, it was

[00:18:20.49] spk_0:
mom. It’s her son.

[00:18:22.19] spk_2:
Mhm. Yeah. And, and you know, and I think that they target demographic. I think a lot of their donors are probably mothers, um, who are kind of feeling the same things about their kids. And so they have a, it’s a woman run organization and I think they have a lot of female donors who just really feel that the tug at the heart strings and understand when they give a little bit and another mom might have some relief.

[00:19:07.57] spk_0:
Maya’s hope is an example that uh we’ve cited in some of our sponsorship messages with donor box because they, they have incredible, I forget what their percentage of increase was when they, when they moved to the donor box platform, but I don’t know if it, if it was the 400% 1 or it was the 267% 1 or whatever. But they’ve been cited in our, in our

[00:19:22.81] spk_2:
message for you. Oh, yeah, I actually I meet with them once a week and so my, my meeting with them is this afternoon. So I’ll be sure to mention that to them that, that you’re noticing them. They’ll be very happy about that. It’s time for a

[00:20:00.99] spk_1:
break. Donor box quote, I regularly experience how donor boxes easy setup and ultra swift pay fast checkout deliver. What we need. Donor box allows us to focus on why we do this, our clients and their needs. End quote. That’s from Jenny N A board member and recurring donor at Organic Soup Kitchen in Santa Barbara, California donor box helping you help others. Donor box dot org. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:22:34.42] spk_0:
Thanks, Kate. I had a rough experience harrowing experience earlier this week. It was just uh four days ago. I was in a car accident. My car was totaled, totally smashed in the front. Uh It’s total. I walked out of it. Uh My, my steering wheel airbag went off my head, hit it and III I smelled this acrid burning smell and I heard hissing, I quick, you know, checked myself, I unbuckled my seatbelt and I was able to just get out and, and walk remarkable could have been, it could have been a lot, a lot different. There were four cars involved and there was someone who was not as fortunate as I was, he was, had to be extricated from the car by the fire department with those jaws of life and they bandaged his head and I could see there was still blood coming even through the bandages. I could see him and he was taken away on a stretcher in an ambulance. He was the worst hurt. You know, it just, it just could have been a lot worse who obviously grateful that I was unscathed. Not even a nose bleed. Uh My, my glasses didn’t even bend, hitting the, the airbag makes me think of my uh father in-law who’s no longer living. Uh because he was an automobile engineer. Cars are engineered to absorb impact with, with crumple zones in the front and the back. I, I needed the one in the front. That’s what saved my life, you know, but crumple zones and safety zones and airbags and the sensors and that’s, um, that, that’s a credit to my father-in-law and all his colleagues in automotive engineering. And it makes me think about how, how close I came and just makes me grateful for scientists, engineers who make our lives safer. That was just this week. And that is Tony’s take too,

[00:22:39.05] spk_1:
Kate. I’m glad you’re with us, Uncle tony.

[00:22:41.45] spk_0:
No, thank you.

[00:22:44.06] spk_1:
We’ve got, but loads more time now back to the five A’s of awesome fundraising with Kara Ox Beger.

[00:22:55.77] spk_0:
Anything else on the, on the ask?

[00:22:58.13] spk_2:
Well, you know, I think so much effort is spent on thinking of that first gift. Um but I think it’s just as important to really earn that second gift. And so that is actually a really great segue into our next A OK.

[00:23:20.15] spk_0:
Oh, I just, I thought of one. OK, before we get, before we get to this, to the next a uh acknowledge um in, in writing, you know, if you’re, if you’re doing, whether it’s digital or print II, I hate to see the asks buried in a, in a dense paragraph, you know, make it, I think, make them stand out now again. Don’t be, don’t be shy and, and humble in your asks. Yeah. Make sure

[00:24:58.19] spk_2:
that it’s clear somewhere. Yeah, what we really encourage people to do so we teach appeal, writing and what we encourage people to do is start with um their direct man letter as an anchor of their communication series around their ask. And in that direct mail letter, what we have them do is make sure that you can understand if you only read the bolded parts of the letter that, that actually tells the whole story. So you have the um the problem. So, and I mean, I’m gonna use this, this Maya Hope example again. So, um mom doesn’t know what to do. Uh son is in need of medication. So, you know, throughout you’re telling a narrative but, but that is, that’s the problem, right? And then you talk about how the organization can help with that. Oh, but Maya’s Hope provides these materials and then you put your call to action and for $10 a month, this child can get what he needs and mom gets peace of mind. Um So if you, if you in the whole narrative of the letter, if you bolded those pieces, the, the reader would be able to really understand what the problem is, what your solution is and how they can help. And then what we do is encourage people to take that anchor piece. A lot of people don’t even do direct mail, but I think it’s a good idea to even start by writing it. And then you can syndicate that direct mail letter into an email or an email series and some social media posts to follow up with that. So you’re really taking um a story and using it as a fundraising campaign for a short period of time and really curating all of your communications around that, that anchor piece.

[00:25:21.21] spk_0:
Do you have advice around uh maximum length of uh I mean, clearly, you know, emails should be shorter but, but uh uh you know, maximum length for a direct mail, you know, print piece.

[00:26:17.87] spk_2:
Well, you know, Mal Warwick is kind of like the, you know, the official go to for me for direct mail writing and he says longer, longer is more compelling. Um, four pages. I’ve never in my life sent a four page appeal letter. Uh but they say, you know, the research says the longer the better I’ve received some in the mail. Um, but no, I, I tend to stick to a front of a page in the back of a page and insert a response device and a carrier envelope in a return envelope. So that’s the package I usually like. Um I think a lot of people think that you have to, you have to just limit the length of a mailed letter to just the front of the page. But I think you can go a little longer. Ok? Especially if you’re telling a good story. I mean, it’s all about storytelling and and really keeping the donor engaged. If you, if you’re writing, well, the donor will turn the the donor will turn the page and keep reading.

[00:26:33.14] spk_0:
Acknowledge. We, we, we almost, we almost got there. You teased right now. Now we’re into that important acknowledgement. I know you’re gonna say that acknowledgements should come fast.

[00:26:49.30] spk_2:
Yeah. So earning that second gift right? We know that acknowledgements need to be prompt and personally um and really make an impact. You want the reader to understand that you are so grateful for their support, so that sincere gratitude, so prompt, personal, sincere gratitude. That really goes a long way.

[00:27:06.00] spk_0:
I love sincerity. You know, and you don’t have to be long to be sincere, genuine heartfelt in your, in your, in your gratitude.

[00:27:21.33] spk_2:
Absolutely. And, and I think, I think, you know, I think that’s something that we, as people are really craving right now. That authenticity, that sincerity. I think that we’re living in such a fast paced life and we have all this A I and all this tech around us that when we get something sincere and authentic, um it really stands out to us.

[00:27:37.92] spk_0:
I’m a big fan of handwritten notes.

[00:28:37.26] spk_2:
Yeah, I just wrote about 15 last night for a fundraising campaign. I’m working on. So, yeah, I, I feel it. I, I’m a big fan of them too. I love receiving them. I love sending them. Um I know it’s a lot of work. I have, I have organizations that I work with. They’re like, I don’t have time for that. Well, there are ways you can, you can modify it. You can do um a mail merged email that looks like it just came from your, your inbox and you can really be like, hey, I just saw your donation come in. I, I really wanted to let you know right away um what this will do and you know, you can, you can really be a little creative. You can even print some Acknowledgments hands, sign them and write a little note on them. Um I received an acknowledgement from an organization, the other day where it was actually written and signed by a volunteer. And that’s OK. I think that those kind of things are just fine. I think you just really need to acknowledge that gift and we know that um that, you know, I think donor attention is down right now. I think a lot of people are saying I’m losing donors and I’m losing donors. Um And I think acknowledgements are the key to that donor renewal. You know, I mentioned earlier, a lot of organizations focus on that first gift. Um But really earning that second gift is what’s important and that’s where acknowledge comes in.

[00:28:55.36] spk_0:
You just gave a lot of good uh tactics for, for, for handwritten or, or something very close to it. Uh Another one is that, that’s, it’s a terrific activity for a board board members. You give them a list of 15 or 20 they can either they could do it in a board meeting or they could take it home with them. You just give them the stationary, take it home with them. I’m sure they’d be happy to mail them,

[00:29:38.78] spk_2:
make a phone call, they can make a phone call. Yeah, leave a voicemail. Yeah. Give them a little script that, you know, most, most calls go to voicemail anyway, just give them a little script that they can leave in a voicemail and, and that’s really impactful. Um What, what always helped me when I um was in a role, I was in a um director of development role and my primary responsibility was acknowledgements. And what I did is I blocked out the last hour of my day on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I made that my handwritten note uh time. And so I went through, I went through the reports. I made sure that they got um notes, but I built it into my schedule and then it was just part of my day and part of my routine for the week. And then I got to go home feeling like I actually accomplished something right

[00:30:37.96] spk_0:
for anything that’s, that’s important. You know, you have, you have to make the time, you’re not gonna find it. Listeners maybe heard me say that if you’ve been listening a while, you’re never gonna find the time, you’re gonna make it. So you have to make it if handwritten notes are important to you an hour a week, two hours a week, delegate it to your board, delegate it to volunteers. That’s a great idea. You know, it’s, people are gonna be thrilled to get a handwritten note because I, I agree with you that we are thirsting for some, some more personal contact coming out of the pandemic when we were, we were prohibited from having personal contact and, and you’re right with artificial intelligence uh growing in popularity to get something that, you know, is genuine, authentic. Um or even the substitutes that you mentioned, you know, if you can, if you can’t do the literal handwritten note, the ways you mentioned to come close, you know, something that’s, that’s email. That, that sounds genuine.

[00:31:07.67] spk_2:
Um, and again, yeah, I think, I think when it comes from the individual, not the organization that adds just a little more impact, um, it makes it seem a little more authentic and, um, yeah, I, I think that one on one is where the relationship grows.

[00:31:25.08] spk_0:
And then if you want to follow with a more formal letter that, you know, maybe says, you know, the, uh it gives your tax deductible tax deductibility disclaimer if you want to include that, you know, that could follow several days later or a week later after the, after the, the, the, the phone message from the board member or the volunteer or whoever. So, you know, you don’t have to incorporate it all in one. And well, how do I sound genuine if I also want to put a tax disc disclaimer in?

[00:31:53.15] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. Um The

[00:31:55.33] spk_0:
disclaimer message could be automatic but the, the first thank you could be genuine, sincere and handwritten or a phone

[00:33:07.90] spk_2:
call. And there are some ways you can blend the two I know um donor box, you can customize your donation receipt, so you can warm up that language that they get right away. When they make an online donation, you can add in a little story or a video. Um You can really warm that up. I like to use the analogy. I think a lot of people are confused. I’m glad you brought this up, tony because I think a lot of people are confused about the difference between a donation receipt and an acknowledgement. And so I like to use this analogy. So your donation receipt is like the receipt you get um at the grocery store. It’s very transactional. It says um you know, you purchased this item on this date for this much money where in a management is like, um, a thank you note to your favorite aunt because she sent you a birthday gift. And so you would never say dear auntie thank you for the sweater valued at $49.95 that you mailed on August 15th. Um, no, you would never say that you would say. Wow, thank you so much for your generosity. That’s my favorite color. I’ll wear it all the time. Um, and then I think there’s a big pitfall too. A lot of people will ask for a second gift in their acknowledgement. You know, hey, thank you for, for giving $10. Would you give us $10 a month? No. And use that analogy then as your, as your litmus test, you would never say dear auntie, thank you for that sweater. Can you send me some jeans and some shoes to match it? No, you would never do that. So if you kind of use that as a litmus test of what you’re sending out. Um I think that that’s, that’s usually what I do in my mind. Anyway,

[00:34:09.76] spk_0:
there’s another opportunity to ask for the follow on gift to ask for the gift to be a sustaining gift monthly. You have other chances at that. Don’t, don’t blow your, your gratitude time on on talk about diluting now you’re diluting your thank you with a with a second ask. It’s just like you said, don’t dilute your ask, don’t dilute your, your gratitude with a with a second ask or request for anything. You just make it a straight. Thank you and touch the, touch the person again at another time.

[00:34:12.91] spk_2:
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, if you’re doing those other things, well, if you’re, if you are acknowledging and you’re showing that you’re accountable for those donations and you’re, you know, continuing to make your organization attractive when you do ask for that monthly gift or whatever is next, they might be able, you know, raise their hand a little faster and say, yeah, I’m in

[00:34:44.45] spk_0:
indeed indeed. Give them the chance, right? Let, let them, let them maybe self identify too. All right. All right. All important. Uh We’re up, we’re up. Well, go ahead. You, you announced this one, you see them at the beginning, but you can announce our fourth. Awesome

[00:35:39.70] spk_2:
A our fourth A is a count. And so that would also fall under stewardship in that, you know, typical fundraising cycle. But this is where you’re showing impact for your gift. And we know this is important because, um, donors say they stop giving because they believe that their gift won’t really help or the money won’t be used. And so that’s where you have to account, account for that hard earned money that your supporters give to your organization. So show the impact, show the, the numbers of people you’ve fed or the number of shoes you’ve given away or the an animals you’ve saved, tell stories of how life change happened because someone gave. And so that’s what I mean by account, it’s as easy as just showing a little impact. It could be numbers, it could be stories, it could be anything that really gets that point across and keeps people wanting to learn more about how their gift, um went to work.

[00:35:46.87] spk_0:
And Maya Hope example, you used kind of incorporated the two into, into ask and also account, you know, by showing what the impact would be for your $10 monthly gift. You have another example, maybe of a, uh, of a, of a impact, an account that, that stays with

[00:37:09.82] spk_2:
you. Yeah. You know, there’s always, you know, nonprofits do a good job of kind of some year end annual reports that maybe you get in the spring or after the fiscal year and that’s not really what I’m talking about. Um, you know, I just got an, an, um, an email from a nonprofit I support. And it said in a very informal term, you know, in a, in a very informal tone, y’all really stepped up because you gave you, um, provided money for this many teens in this program and you helped dig a well at this site in Africa and you did this and you did this and you did this and it was about six bullet points of what I did and it, I know that my, whatever, my $25 I gave or whatever didn’t do all those things. But it, but addressed it, it said corporately because you gave these things happened. And so I think those are, that’s just a really quick, easy in my inbox. It took me two minutes to read it or less. Uh, but I, that stuck in my mind and I was like, yeah, ok, my money went to work and it did all these things. That’s really amazing. So that’s what I mean by account that doesn’t have to be a large, you know, overly processed brochure mailed, you know, that kind of thing. It can be stories of impact, it can be one on one. You know, I’m sitting across to you from coffee and, and I wanna tell you about somebody who came through our door and was hungry or thirsty and how, you know how we helped them. It’s as easy as that, that’s a count

[00:37:38.12] spk_0:
and you distinguish it from the, uh, the annual report

[00:37:56.31] spk_2:
and, and, and that, that is an impact report. Yeah. And that, I mean, I think that that’s important too. That’s a really great way to show um in a very large format how to, you know, you’re accounting for those donations that are entrusted to you. It’s intimidating for so many nonprofit professionals to think. Oh, I have to knock out an annual report. It’s important you should do it. But throughout the year use these little opportunities to show um that you’re accounting for those donations.

[00:38:12.69] spk_0:
Ok. Anything else? Uh accounting, accounting

[00:38:26.79] spk_2:
wise, well, acknowledge an account, makeup stewardship. Good stewardship means donor retention, right? So that’s, that’s the end goal, donor retention. They want those donors to come back for their second gift and their third

[00:38:29.64] spk_0:
gift. Yeah, because we know that acquiring a new donor costs us so much more than retaining. And uh yeah, our retention rates are very poor, right? Like 20% or something, the 80% of donors leave after the first gift.

[00:38:44.09] spk_2:
Oh, yeah,

[00:38:44.86] spk_0:
17% is our retention rate or something. It’s very, very pitifully low.

[00:38:51.26] spk_2:
So for yeah, you’re bringing in 10 donors and eight of them are turning around and never coming back. But the statistics show that if you have repeat donations. So those people who give second um make their second gift and third gift, their retention rate is closer to that 60% level. So those are the kind of numbers that you really want to, to um report on. You really want to keep your eye on as you are creating your fundraising strategy for the year.

[00:39:19.49] spk_0:
And that’s our uh again, right? Our, our fifth, our fifth a of awesome fundraising is again,

[00:40:10.49] spk_2:
again, yeah, repeat. It’s, it’s just repeat. So as you repeat the cycle, you know, you’re focusing not only on attracting new donors, right? But making your organization attractive to your current supporters. So you’re engaging them, you’re inviting them, you are starting that conversation and just keeping that conversation going and you keep that cycle going year over year. We have um one woman who runs an organization who’s in our fundraising coaching and she shared with me that they have an organizational commitment to ensure that any supporter receives at least two communication touch points before they’re asked again. So that is just a framework that you can have as part of your organizational practices and really just kind of keep that in the back of your mind. So if you’re not over asking, um now there are seasons that are very ask heavy like year end fundraising. You might feel like you’re really, really asking a lot during that time of year and that’s ok. Just make sure that you’re balancing out your communication touch points throughout the year so that they’re not all ask heavy,

[00:40:27.79] spk_0:
you’d probably like to see an annual plan.

[00:40:29.98] spk_2:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Communications

[00:40:32.17] spk_0:
marketing plan.

[00:40:34.14] spk_2:
And when you’re mapping out that plan, keep those five A’s in mind and just make sure that you’re, that you’re plugging touch points in that, that apply to those throughout the year.

[00:40:45.52] spk_0:
Anything else, Carrie, you wanna, uh, you wanna leave us with could be, could be outside the five days of awesome fundraising if, if you like anything. Uh, um,

[00:41:15.80] spk_2:
yeah, I say, you know, now is really the best time to shore up some of those good fundraising practices to really um take time to say, ok, what am I doing right now? Have I done a good job of, you know, accounting for the donations people have given to me. Have I taken time to say thank you. Um And that was a really good time to really assess that and make up for a backlog if you haven’t before we get ready for that year end fundraising. So that will help your organization stand out in your supporters’ minds when it’s, when it’s time to ask again. But I think now is a very important time to really make sure that you’re aligned for all that’s ahead in the coming months.

[00:41:40.81] spk_0:
Kara Ger with A P, not with A B No, she’s the uh fundraising coach for donor box. You’ll find her on linkedin. You’ll find the company, of course, you know, because uh they’re graciously sponsoring nonprofit radio, you know, that the company is at donor Boxx dot org. Kara, thank you very much. For sharing. Thanks so much.

[00:42:08.78] spk_2:
Oh, it’s been such a pleasure, tony. Thanks so much for having me next week.

[00:42:15.72] spk_1:
We don’t know, but it’ll be a good one. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:42:19.01] spk_0:
I’d beit, you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:42:31.82] spk_1:
Were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org. I love

[00:42:40.97] spk_0:
that alliteration. And by the way, when I said tough, I didn’t mean tough for you to say I meant too bad. You gotta say it

[00:43:03.87] spk_1:
too bad yet to say. Try to say it five times fast, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising for, for your nonprofit. Our train is Claire Myer. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is like Scott Stein.

[00:43:24.35] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.