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Nonprofit Radio for July 11, 2022: Service Design

 

Janice Chan: Service Design

Our #22NTC coverage continues with Janice Chan sharing her strategies for creating great programs, events and campaigns that offer value while balancing the needs of all your stakeholders. She’s from Shift and Scaffold.

 

 

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[00:01:34.94] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. This is show # 599. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with blast. Oh my co sis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show Service design. Our 22 NTC coverage continues with Janice Chan Sharing her strategies for creating great programs, events and campaigns that offer value while balancing the needs of all your stakeholders. She’s from shift and scaffold On Tony’s take two my three lessons sounds like my three sons were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. And by 4th dimension Technologies IT Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper here is service design.

[00:01:39.34] spk_1:
Welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:01:56.34] spk_0:
Non profit radio coverage of 22 NTC 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10. My guest now is Janice chan she’s director at shift and scaffold Janice Welcome back to non profit radio

[00:01:59.74] spk_1:
Thanks so much for having me. tony

[00:02:01.78] spk_0:
Absolutely you’re welcome these Ntc’s bring us Together this is your third, your third show,

[00:02:07.76] spk_1:
I think so. 3rd time’s the charm. Right?

[00:02:11.14] spk_0:
Well yes but it’ll be more charming from next year on

[00:02:16.24] spk_1:
you

[00:02:16.46] spk_0:
think you’re gonna go to the to the in person conference next year in Denver have you thought about that

[00:02:27.14] spk_1:
I haven’t thought too much about that because you know, planning a whole year out is uh you know, kind of beyond my brain,

[00:02:28.94] spk_0:
I

[00:02:31.68] spk_1:
hope to be able to attend.

[00:02:34.04] spk_0:
I think I’ll be there.

[00:02:35.29] spk_1:
Yeah, awesome, wonderful.

[00:02:48.64] spk_0:
Your workshop this year is service design better experiences for everyone. That’s uh that’s pretty broad. You’re, you’re promising a lot there, everybody’s gonna be satisfied with this.

[00:02:53.63] spk_1:
I am promising a lot and I

[00:02:57.66] spk_0:
nobody left out.

[00:07:30.84] spk_1:
I think that that is so to give a little bit of a back story um for the context in which I was approaching this session and why I brought it forward was so I was a nonprofit technologist for many, many years. And um you know, when I was in, I said to go to graduate school, I went to school and for information management, which is basically about understanding people’s information needs and how do we make information usable and accessible and useful to people. And that was when I learned about user experience and then service design. And so when I was learning about service design, I recognize a lot of things that I had done in my nonprofit work. Um and it was really, it really resonated. It also was like, how come I didn’t know about this sooner. I don’t know people talk about these methods and a lot of these frameworks I think are really beneficial for people who are working in social impact sector and so too as to why I think so, right? Service design kind of looks at design is just problem solving, which is what people of non profit sector do all the time. And service design looks at if you’re providing your service like an after school program managing donor relationships, running a volunteer program, that sort of thing. It looks at the end to end experience of like what’s the experience of that person who’s going through that program? Who’s a volunteer, who’s a donor, who’s even an employee perhaps. Right. And what are all the things that it takes to make that happen? So, you know, there’s things that the organization, the employees need to do on the back end. There’s systems and Crm s and like processes and resources that they need. Maybe there’s data that they’re collecting. And so it looks at all of these things all together. And for me, that felt very much like what people do in the social sector, right? Because you’re I don’t know, running, let’s say a volunteer program and you want to make sure that like the kids who are coming to summer camp are having a good time, right? Because that’s the point of the summer camp. But you want to make sure the volunteers are having a good time because you’re not you’re not paying them. And then you got to think through, okay, Like I need like supplies and I need to schedule people and I need transportation, right? You have to think through all those logistical things. You might have some data that you need to collect for the funders. There’s things that like organizationally your staff who’s like, you know, hey, we have a policy, we need to like run background checks and the volunteers before they can start all of those things. And so I think that services line offers a lot to helping us think about those, how to tackle those types of challenges. And also because we’re constantly balancing the needs of different stakeholder groups, right? We’ve got our community members, we’ve got our clients and our volunteers and our donors. And then like funders and whoever and we have our staff, right? Different staff have different needs. And so when we’re thinking about that, right? Sometimes like the power dynamics really balanced in this, in this sector that we work in. And so it can be easy just like default to whoever carries the most weight and whoever like has the biggest amount of influence. And I think that even though services is not inherently necessary, like focused on say equity. But I think that the frameworks lend themselves to, okay, if we look at this entire picture, we have to ask the question and it helps to start the conversation. We have to ask the question of like does it make sense for organization to run this program in this way. Right? Like we want the community members have a good experience. But also there’s things like our staff capacity, our resources, right? Like what does it actually take to deliver this program at the level that we’re wanting to to deliver it at and also that safe and you know, accessible inclusive, all of those things. Right. And then it gives us the ability to like have that conversation with the other people who are involved um and to kind of bring them into the room.

[00:07:34.14] spk_0:
So is this a framework for a methodology

[00:07:38.74] spk_1:
of

[00:07:48.04] spk_0:
evaluating existing programs? Uh and I know it applies either existing programs or to, you know, something new programs. But is it is it is there a methodology or is just a way of thinking or what is drilled down? Like what is

[00:07:55.84] spk_1:
what,

[00:07:58.04] spk_0:
what what is I understand it at a conceptual level. But how do you execute service design?

[00:08:09.84] spk_1:
Sure. So service design could be looked at as a discipline, right? Like graphic design is its own discipline. Um Computer engineering is

[00:08:13.03] spk_0:
right.

[00:08:27.84] spk_1:
It’s about the whole process. But I think that there are ways to incorporate the frameworks that we use in service design, the tools or methods that we use in service design and incorporate those into non profit work to kind of help just balance like all of those different things going on.

[00:09:57.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications media relations and thought leadership turn to has the media relationships to make you the thought leader and where they don’t have a relationship. They know how to start one and grow it for your benefit? Like for instance with the leading state or local news outlet in your area. So they may not know them now, but they can get to know them. And that means you get to know them. And that means you get your message out when you need to be heard. Like when there is something in the local news related to your work or the national news, you want to be heard. Media relations and thought leadership Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to service design. Suppose we’re evaluating, uh, in an existing program. Let’s take those folks, you know, all our folks, all our listeners have programs. They might be embarking on new programs, but everybody’s, everybody’s got got something going on now. So let’s let’s work with that little, that bigger population. We’ve got something going on now. Multiple programs, naturally lots of nonprofits. Um, how do you, how do we start to

[00:09:59.14] spk_1:
think about,

[00:10:00.07] spk_0:
uh, an evaluation process.

[00:13:05.24] spk_1:
Sure. So I think like the way that what we’re looking for and within, if you’re taking a service that approach to looking at an existing program and how we can improve it, write the things that you’re looking at are, I mean for every nonprofit, right? This is less a service design thing and more of a why we’re doing the work we do thing is is it helping us achieve the mission? Is it helping us like move the needles that we’re trying to move right? You always want to know whether it’s doing that. But then sort of like digging down into that further. You want to understand like, what’s the experience of somebody who’s going through and receiving this service? Right? Is that the experience that we want them to have? Like if you’re running like say a workforce training program, right? Like obviously for it to be valuable to the participant, they need to be able to, it needs to help them like find jobs or be more equipped to find, you know, change careers or whatever it is at the end of that program. But in going through that program, right? You probably your organization have some values like we want to be inclusive. We want people to feel like they matter and feel empowered. Right? And do people feel that way going through that program? So that’s kind of like the first, the top layer of it and then sort of like the bottom or sort of supporting layers of that are, you know, in order to make this valuable to the organization right? Valuable to the organization and the social sectors, You know, things like, is it helping us achieve our mission? And also does it make maybe like sense that we’re the ones doing this the way in which we’re doing it. Is it sustainable for us, given our capacity given how we’re structured and set up? You know, I think that’s an opportunity of course to like revisit some things and I think that can come out of a lot of service design work is I think the biggest thing is alignment and a lot of the times when people are frustrated with the process, whether they’re the person receiving the service or they’re the employees in the back end, that they’re like this is just like we can’t keep doing things like this, right? This is really frustrating, It’s taking way more time than it should. It seems like really tedious or we’re not being equipped or resourced to do the work that we’re actually trying to do. And I think a lot of those frustrations come out of misalignment, right? Maybe you started this program 10 years ago and back then, right? Like the way you set things that made sense at the time and it’s easy to let like many years go by and like things are so working, but we never really stand back and take a look at the whole picture to see like does this still make sense given that probably the context has changed, right. Other things have changed. And so what do we need to improve a realign or make sure is actually supporting the end outcomes that we’re working for?

[00:13:43.94] spk_0:
Alright, write these big picture questions are align when you talk about alignment? You mean, I I think alignment with mission alignment with the impacts that you want to create in the community. You know, does it like you said, does it make sense for us to be for us to be doing it and doing it in the way that we’re doing it? So, you know, so these big picture, but it is it’s important to step back and be introspective, be, be scrutinizing all the work that you’re doing because you don’t want to maybe it’s better done by another organization or better done vastly different than you’re doing it, or just a little bit different than you’re doing it.

[00:14:15.44] spk_1:
Yeah, it can be the little things too like we, you know, are sending these volunteers out and they’re not having a good time and, you know what? We have really inconsistent training for them, Right. And and that could be a thing that’s not a line. We want them to do things in a certain way and feel equipped to do things, but we’re not providing them the support that they need in order to actually do that. Um, so it can also be for incremental improvements as well.

[00:14:22.04] spk_0:
Your right eye. Thank you. There’s another level of alignment to just aside from alignment with mission and impact, but alignment within the

[00:14:28.99] spk_1:
program,

[00:14:36.64] spk_0:
you know, are we are we not reimbursing our volunteers sufficiently or are we asking them to do too much or too little? How do you start to get this feedback from all the different cohorts. You’ve got your service recipients, you’ve got your volunteers, you’ve got your staff potentially very likely. How do you start to get the honest feedback

[00:14:53.14] spk_1:
as

[00:14:53.45] spk_0:
you’re, as you’re trying to be introspective?

[00:16:00.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I think is very much a team sport, right? Like I cannot tell you the the frontline picture if I’m not the front line person, right? I can’t tell you what it looks like from that perspective or what would make my job easier. And so I think the really big thing is to a product like identify of course, like who are all the people who are involved, who are all the people who are impacted and people are impacted to varying involved to varying levels of course. Um, but just figure out like what are the questions that things that we need to understand from these people, like who do we need to get in touch with? And I think just honestly getting people to sort of participate in drawing the picture of what things look like now. So one of the core tools in service design is the service blueprints. And that’s sort of like just mapping out a diagram of like what are the all the little bits and pieces that make up the service and you know, what does that journey look like for somebody who’s like going through? Like maybe like we have a summer program, right? Someone who’s going through a summer program,

[00:16:06.54] spk_0:
it’s

[00:17:07.44] spk_1:
like journey mapping with extra layers right? With the entire back end of you know, here’s the workflow that the employees are doing here, the support processes here. The systems we use, maybe there’s a data level, it can be really kind of whatever makes sense for your organization. But I think the biggest part is like getting, you know, and you can get feedback in many ways. Um you know the research methods you would use in service design or similar to other research, you would use another discipline. So like interview surveys, um you could do a workshop so all of these things right, contribute to to making up this picture. But I think the really powerful part of getting people from these different stakeholder groups involved in creating that picture, is that then everybody sees the same picture and can have that conversation about, oh like I can see why there is a problem or like these things are just kind of disconnected and we didn’t plan for like how somebody would get from step A to step B um or like hey they have like no resources, we have no staff because like somebody left and we never like refilled that position or what have you. Um it allows people to see agree on the problems because they can all see them together.

[00:18:39.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break, 4th dimension technologies, business continuity in case of emergency break glass then what as part of four D’s. I. T. Infra in a box. They’ll work with you to develop your incident response plan which includes who disseminates the tech info. How does I. T. Security change now? What hardware and software changes do we need? What changes I. T. Wise in the office and how about remotely business continuity is part of the I. T. Buffet so you can take it or leave it the same with security like multi factor authentication and they’re help desk and I. T. Audit and training and a technology plan for you. All these are part of their I. T. In. For in a box. Fourth dimension technologies. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to service design

[00:18:43.94] spk_1:
then. How

[00:18:53.54] spk_0:
do you start to uh makes make change? I mean I imagine you have to have leadership buy into this to this process to this introspection.

[00:18:56.54] spk_1:
You know how do you

[00:18:58.04] spk_0:
studies if this is a substantial program, there’s a lot of moving parts.

[00:19:02.14] spk_1:
How do you

[00:19:04.94] spk_0:
start to tweak something and make sure it’s not

[00:19:05.85] spk_1:
gonna

[00:19:11.84] spk_0:
adversely impact something else or some other group of stakeholders that you didn’t anticipate. You know how do you start to tweak these changes.

[00:22:08.14] spk_1:
So I think the biggest part about the approach of service design is that you’re involving. So at least you know some representatives from each of these stakeholder groups you can tell you like. Yeah you can’t change that because of this other thing. It’s going to break or if you change that, right? Like we need to figure out how we can address this particular need or process or what have you. And so by doing that right? Like I can’t know everything. Like no one person can know every single thing about all the different components of a service or program, right? So it’s sort of like, let’s build up this brain trust so that we’re not missing those important things. But to your point, right? Like to even start that process you need but the culture that supports that, right? In terms of we’re open to input, we’re open to getting um feedback into taking it seriously and to to really thinking about like who is getting the most impacted by the service and any changes that we make and you know, of course leadership, right? In terms of depending a bit on like how your organization works. But in most organizations, right? If you don’t have buy in at some of those key levels or for like key people with it. Like, if you’re looking at a program and the program director doesn’t hasn’t bought isn’t on board yet, right? With doing this process, then, you know, that’s gonna be a hard thing to you have to address that first. But I think that like in using participatory methods and helping people just visualize like, here’s what’s going on, right? Like I know that you’re frustrated and you think it’s this one thing, but there are these five other things going on. And I think that offers the opportunity also to show people how it could be better because a lot of times, right? And I’m sure you’ve had this experience, many, many of us have of it’s frustrating, it’s annoying like this just feels like it’s not working. Why are we still doing it this way? But like nobody knows how to fix it, but you can’t begin to fix something if you can’t identify what is actually causing, like what is the actual root of why it’s so problematic. And so getting people to agree on that, right? That’s a point from which you can begin to brainstorm about what could be better. Or I feel like a lot of times when I do this work, people come out of the woodwork like, oh yeah, like I’ve been thinking for a long time, but this could be better and I had an idea but I didn’t know where to go with it, right? Or I didn’t think that people would be on board with changing it, or I was worried that if I made this change that it was going to have this ripple effect and I don’t I don’t know what that is, right? So some of it I think is also kind of empowering people to be, you know, sort of change agents within their organizations as well,

[00:22:16.84] spk_0:
Okay, um what else should we know about, about service design, whatever we talked about

[00:22:21.42] spk_1:
yet that, that

[00:22:22.63] spk_0:
you, you shared in your, in your session.

[00:23:55.04] spk_1:
So I think that like one of the, you know, I think this is a common, common challenge, right? And change projects, is that like a lot of times they can be so big, right? And seems so overwhelming and then like the time you get done with it, you’re like, is this what we wanted or have other things change and should we have changed things along the way? So I think in service design and many design disciplines apart, one of the things that you want to do is to keep iterating and to your point about like making making big changes and them having those having implications, right? Because you can ask all of the people get input from everybody involved and roll something out and there’s still something that you didn’t anticipate, right? Like there’s just, it’s just the way of life and technology and working. Um, but if you roll out parts of the time where you test that little parts of the time and then test and design testing is really just, I’m going to try a thing with real people and just see how it works out in the real world, not in this, like on the computer, it looks like this lovely flow chart of like how this is supposed to work, right? And then where the rubber hits the road is when you test it out with real people and then iterating your stress like okay, we tried it, that was draft one. We’re going to make some changes based on what we learned from that. And so it doesn’t have to be like this like massive pilot program kind of situation, right? Like you could tweak one small thing and just see how that works and then tweak the next small thing and see how that works.

[00:24:05.84] spk_0:
That’s probably a better approach. Anyway.

[00:24:08.34] spk_1:
You

[00:24:08.43] spk_0:
know, I was saying, you know, I was saying big overhaul changes, you know that that can be upsetting for everybody involved and you know, it might mean delays in delivering the program. You know, it

[00:24:20.72] spk_1:
seems like

[00:24:27.44] spk_0:
tweaks R and then iterating R r is a better way to, there’s a better way to go about,

[00:25:03.14] spk_1:
right? And and it’s different right? If you’re starting a new program right, you might take the big approach because you’re starting not really from like nothing is really from scratch, right? But there’s not an existing program that you need to keep operating at the same time when you’ve got something existing. I think incremental is a lot better. And you know, you can avoid things like, oh that completely just broke this other thing that, you know, when we made this change, right? You can go in and fix that and then adjust course as you need to and you know, because otherwise it’s like it’s just you can’t do all of the things that once there’s no like staples easy button

[00:25:15.44] spk_0:
Yeah right. And it becomes overwhelming and creates lack of inertia though. Um What were some of the questions that you

[00:25:17.84] spk_1:
got in

[00:25:18.13] spk_0:
the session?

[00:25:19.24] spk_1:
So I will admit I really jammed a lot of tent into my

[00:25:24.42] spk_0:
session.

[00:25:34.14] spk_1:
Um so I didn’t get a ton of questions but but I think one of the things that I would say when I try to explain what I do to other people, first of all people here design and they’re like graphic design, visual design, right? That’s like usually what pops into people’s heads, right? But so much of us do design every day.

[00:25:48.32] spk_0:
You’re stuck with me. I didn’t even, I didn’t even think along those lines and and as soon as you said it it helps us understand what what practices. So

[00:25:56.61] spk_1:
yeah, bring

[00:25:57.90] spk_0:
me along slowly. I’m trainable, trainable but take it in increments please.

[00:26:51.64] spk_1:
I appreciate it. So design is really just problem solving right? And it’s things that we do every day. It’s like if you move the dishrag to be closer to the sink because that works better and you’re dripping us on the floor right? Like you’re redesigning your space so that you have less dripping wet dishes on the floor right? You’re solving your problem for you. And so we do this every day research is you know, sounds like a big thing but it’s just information gathering, right? If I’m trying to pick new software. I probably like look up if they have any reviews. What are the features? Maybe I talked to somebody who’s using that product that their organization, right? That’s research. But we don’t necessarily research. Sounds big and academic and formal. I’m sorry. Were you gonna say something?

[00:27:00.34] spk_0:
Only that I was gonna riff on your example that now that you’ve moved the dishes closer to the sink, you’re getting less water on the floor, but your elbows are breaking the crystal.

[00:27:04.40] spk_1:
So perhaps perhaps so now you have to iterate, right?

[00:28:39.64] spk_0:
Didn’t anticipate that. Right? Alright. Maybe it belongs on the other side. Your less dominant side. That doesn’t move as much It’s time for Tony’s take two. As you know, As you heard this is my silver jubilee in planned giving. So I have a blog post To memorialize my three top lessons takeaways, whichever parlance you prefer. The lessons for the That used to be until they became takeaways several years ago. I’ve got the three of them. The top three and the first one is it’s all about relationships and relationships are much easier and hopefully they go much deeper then you might expect. So that’s my first thinking first take away from 25 years in planned giving the others and a little background but not too long. Let’s not get carried away. Let’s not get narcissistic But some background about my 25 years, my my initiation getting started in planned Giving that is all in this blog post, which is at planned giving accelerator dot com. And then you click blog. Thank Giving accelerator dot com. Quick blog. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for service design. With Janice chan

[00:28:49.44] spk_1:
All

[00:28:49.60] spk_0:
Right, well you said you uh, you said you packed your session full and you’ve really been talking like 20 minutes or

[00:28:54.87] spk_1:
so, what

[00:28:55.92] spk_0:
what else are you not sharing with non profit radio listeners? Maybe a story maybe a case. Did you share a case?

[00:29:51.74] spk_1:
Sure. This this was so one of the things that I went through walked through in detail was um, so I talked a bit about research and I talked about different methods, one of which, you know, mapping and diagramming. Just like, let’s get on the same page, literally right. Like let’s, you know, take this intangible service of how we don’t know, provide meals to seniors and drop them off at their homes. And let’s put it on the paper so we can see like where things are misaligned. And so one of the core methods is the service blueprint, which I’ve mentioned. Um, but I took people through. It’s a little hard, I guess if it’s just audio, but I took people through, if you think about, have you ever been a new employee somewhere?

[00:30:01.14] spk_0:
uh not recently, not in the past 25 years, 23 years or so. But yes, I’ve been in the past. I was a new employee twice.

[00:30:07.04] spk_1:
So you’ve had the experience of like you start, you don’t know anything there.

[00:30:08.99] spk_0:
Where’s the bathroom

[00:30:09.99] spk_1:
need to do? Yeah. Where’s the

[00:30:11.29] spk_0:
bathroom, where

[00:30:12.61] spk_1:
mask

[00:30:13.38] spk_0:
use the copy

[00:30:14.23] spk_1:
machine. Exactly.

[00:30:16.64] spk_0:
What’s my code for the copy machine?

[00:31:41.04] spk_1:
So, you know, I took people through the experience because I was like, you know, I don’t know your your fundraisers if your program people of your executive directors, HR folks who knows. Right? And so this could work for all sorts of services. But we’ve all, I think most everybody has been an employee somewhere once. And so I took them through the example. And so service blueprint is like, if you think of a service, like a theater production, right? So you have on stage or the front stage is what the audience can see. And then backstage, right, there’s like people doing lighting, there’s people doing the music, there’s you know, directing whatever it is, costumes. And so the key part of this diagram is always thinking about what is front stage that other people can see and what’s backstage. And so I took people through these layers. There are there’s a physical evidence, right? So like if you’re a new employee, you have maybe you get an email, maybe you got a phone call from your like hiring manager, right? Like congratulations, We picked you like, here’s the offer letter, write the offer letter is its own piece of physical evidence, Its own sort of touch points is a term that we used to call it. And this could be other also things like if you, there’s a website to like enroll in your benefits, that sort of

[00:31:45.03] spk_0:
thing

[00:32:27.54] spk_1:
and sort of the next level or thinks that the as a new hire, right? Like I am enrolling in benefits. I am reading this email about what to do on my first day. You know, things like that on the other side of that are there was an employee internally who had to do something right? Like your manager had to send you that email about what to do on your first day or HR had to send you, here’s the link to the enrollment website for your benefits, things like that. There are also things that are sort of backstage, right? Like as a new hire, you’re like, oh great, I’ve got a new computer, it’s just there, right? You didn’t see somebody ordering that computer for

[00:32:29.99] spk_0:
you.

[00:33:37.74] spk_1:
So that’s also a thing that’s specific to you starting as a new employee, right? They didn’t need a computer if they weren’t hiring somebody. And so that’s specific to you. There are also support processes going on. So when you come right, you’re expecting, I will get paid every two weeks or whatever the period is that payroll processes a support process. So that goes on every two weeks like clockwork and as a new hire you would get folded into that of course you would be paid. But when you start doesn’t change that schedule, it doesn’t change how that process works. That process is just gonna run every two weeks, Right? And then there is a system. So maybe um for example there is an HR system, right? And that works together with with how payroll gets processed. So when you start, your information gets entered into the HR system as a new employee and that that feeds into payroll and and possibly other things. So kind of like that’s those are the layers of things. When I talk about the all of the layers that make up the end to end experience so that that service, it’s possible. Those are the kinds of the layers I’m talking about.

[00:33:52.99] spk_0:
These are all these are all included in the service blueprint.

[00:33:57.34] spk_1:
Exactly, exactly. And so there’s it I go through this in the slides which are in the collaborative notes and and people can certainly check those out and see that example.

[00:34:07.91] spk_0:
Where are those, where are those notes?

[00:37:40.33] spk_1:
Those notes if you attended? Um And D. C. They’re in socio under the session page, you know, So if you went to look up service design my service design session sort of you scroll towards the bottom underneath the description, there’s a link to the collaborative notes and I’ve got tons of resources in there too. Um I think another thing that I love to talk about if we’re good on time is making sure like there are a lot of ways in which I think in the past several years now, profit have gotten better about how do we incorporate our values into our day to day operations? Right. Like if we value inclusion, right, that’s not only about the program that we’re running externally in the community, but also like what does that mean in house? Right? Like how does that, what does that mean about how we treat our staff and treat each other? And so I think what the things that you’re doing in a design process, right? I think it’s always a friend and I were talking about this the other day, right? That there are a lot of accessibility resources for like accessibility outwards, right? But not maybe as many resources for accessibility in words for your staff. And so I think, you know, when you’re going through this design process, the point is, right, we’re not only thinking about whoever is receiving the service who may or may not be external to this organization, but also about what are the needs of the people who are actually like providing the service inside the organization. That could be things like training and and systems and equipment, right? But it could also be about what they need to be successful. And so some of the other things that I touched on um I didn’t have a chance to get in depth but included more resources on some of these topics. Um one of them was participatory design or co design. So there’s kind of like, there’s a spectrum of how much you involve people, right? There’s like, we’re not asking anybody, we’re just gonna create whatever we think is best. You know, there that’s sort of like the one end of the spectrum and the high end, right? You might even bring the community members on as sort of like project team members, right? You might compensate them for their time. They get to have a say in the decision making right? That’s like a really big in terms of shifting power, right? Having a say in the decision making is a really big piece of that, you know? And then they’re sort of like in between is we did some research, right? We got their input but maybe we didn’t, but we the internal people made all the decisions and then they’re sort of like somewhat more participatory, maybe they have even helped like co design pieces of it or gave us some ideas but they weren’t involved in the whole project or they didn’t really have a final say in the decision making right? These are different place points on that spectrum. And so, you know, there’s a lot of debate. There’s also like differences in how people label them as co design or participatory design. Um So some people are like, yeah, this is all just the same thing, right? The whole spectrum is the same thing, you know, and some people are like, no, these are very distinctive like points and we should be clear about them. Um, also talked about

[00:37:43.25] spk_0:
the finer points of arguments within the service design community,

[00:37:47.93] spk_1:
yeah. Within the design community,

[00:37:50.96] spk_0:
what’s

[00:37:51.39] spk_1:
co design, what’s

[00:37:52.43] spk_0:
participatory

[00:41:47.21] spk_1:
design? But I just say that so that when people are looking at the resources that they know that people will call it different things and that nobody agrees on what these are called. Um, so that’s not confusing. And I think the other things are around like in order to make things like accessible, right? Like that needs to be baked into the project from the beginning, both in parts of like how we’re going to think about the process, who involved in the process and it should be accessible both for participants, write your external audience, but also internally for the employees who are working, working at your organization. Um, and then the other thing I touched on was charming firm design. So trauma from designs kind of an emerging area of practice and it comes from trauma informed care and social work. So it’s sort of, I think people are beginning to recognize that, you know, obviously the organizations where you’re clearly working with people who have experienced trauma, right? Because you’re, I don’t know, maybe working with abuse survivors or veterans or things like that. But the, I think the point being is that there’s a lot more that goes on that’s unrecognized. And so sort of flipping the switch from assuming that people haven’t experienced trauma too, if we assume that people were working with most likely have experienced trauma, right? How do we design services or products or what have you, how do we provide care in a way that is going to take that into account and two sort of, you know, make make sure that we’re not re traumatizing people, make sure that we’re actually supporting and empowering those people. So that’s a lot around centers a lot around, you know, giving people choice, making sure that a space is safe for them both physically and emotionally, um, making sure that we’re doing what we can to sort of place the control back in their hands of people, you know, who’ve had that control taken away from them. And so a lot of those, those, um, a lot of that kind of comes out of things that work that has been done in social work, but I think it’s a really important thing to think about, especially for those of us in the, in the social impact sector, you know, and, and then I think the other big thing was like change management. So, you know, you talked about this right? Like how do you get people on board, how do you get the leadership on board? And I think that this is really lacking in a lot of service design resources because a lot of service deciders. So I wouldn’t say that service design is, is the most common in the United States, but I would say that probably most people who are working in service design in the United States, there are people who do this work in government. So the federal government in local and state governments, because you’re providing services to citizens, right? That’s a core part of what our government does, you know, and then there’s there’s some in like health care and and financial services and things that are kind of a little less simply web based um but it’s not super common and so the service designers who are working a lot of them are either at really large institutions or their external external agencies so they can design the thing, they can do the research, they can help involved and pull this design together, but then they’re usually handing off the implementation, but I’m going to guess for most of the listeners of non profit radio most attendees of ntC but that’s not the case, right? Like we are designing, you know, we’re improving the program and then we got to go implement

[00:41:53.06] spk_0:
it.

[00:42:46.00] spk_1:
Yeah, so really like building in that time for change management. So it’s like getting external feedback is not something your organization is used to doing right, Like that’s gonna be a change internally for how you and your colleagues are used to working, it might be a change for leadership, you might need to get by and for that. Um but also, you know, the the program itself, right? So there’s maybe a few people who are starting like starting something new, but a lot of us were trying to improve the existing programs and services and our existing operational functions and so there’s always that that change piece that you’re gonna have to build in that time for to just like let’s spend time on this, like let’s make sure that we have like people on board before we try to move forward. Otherwise, you know, as you pointed out, it’s not gonna be so successful

[00:42:52.00] spk_0:
Janice just to wrap up, explain that your company name shift in

[00:42:57.00] spk_1:
scaffold, what

[00:42:58.92] spk_0:
does that mean?

[00:44:15.09] spk_1:
Sure. So I like to think about a lot of the work that I do, but also a lot of the work that we do in the social impact sector general as sort of shifting the lens, shifting the narrative. Maybe we’re shifting power, maybe we’re shifting like who gets centered um in the decisions that are made and whose voices get heard and then scaffold so scaffolding in education and um so I also like used to be an instructional designer scaffolding in education is about when you’re teaching somebody something new, you want to make sure that you’re building on what they learned already, right? You’re building on their existing knowledge and then sort of you add a little bit of new stuff every time. And so I like to think of my work as partnering with people so that when I leave the engagement, right? So like, usually I work with people on a project basis or I do coaching. And so like after the end of our engagement, I don’t want people to be like, oh, like now we have to find somebody else to do that thing, right? I’m not you know, that’s not the point of the work I do. What I want to do is build people’s capacity to carry that forward themselves. So that’s why I named it shift and scaffold.

[00:44:24.29] spk_0:
All right, thank you, Janice, chan director shift in scaffold Janice, Thank you very much.

[00:44:26.29] spk_1:
Thanks so much for having me. tony It was great talking with you and uh I hope you are doing well and I’ll talk to you again later.

[00:44:37.79] spk_0:
Yeah, maybe next year’s in T. C. All right, thank you. Thanks for sharing Janice.

[00:44:39.36] spk_1:
Thank you. Take care.

[00:46:16.99] spk_0:
Next week. Woo! It is the 600th show, The 12th anniversary, the 12th Jubilee 600 Shows Next Week. That means my fabulous co host and our creative producer Claire Meyerhoff will be with me scott, Stein, you gotta have the live music, the live cheap red wine plus he’s gonna do a couple of other songs for us. Amy sample Ward, Gene Takagi, our sponsors are gonna chip in, It’s all on the 600th show next week. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O And by 4th dimension technologies I. T. And for in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott style. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for March 14, 2022: Nonprofit Emeriti With JoAnn Goldberger

JoAnn Goldberger: Nonprofit Emeriti With JoAnn Goldberger

We’re kicking off a new feature, highlighting long-career retirees from the nonprofit community who have ideas, wisdom and experience to share. JoAnn Goldberger is our inaugural Nonprofit Emeriti guest. She shares strategies for getting your org to the next level. You’ll find her on LinkedIn.

 

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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
Hello and

[00:02:07.34] spk_1:
Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. You’re aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me, I’d be forced to endure the pain of pancreatitis analysis if you secreted the idea that you missed this week’s show, non profit temerity with Joanne Goldberger, we’re kicking off a new feature highlighting long career retirees from the nonprofit community who have ideas, wisdom and experience to share Joanne Goldberger is my inaugural non profit temerity guest on tony steak too. The jargon jail rules, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s a big pleasure to welcome my inaugural non profit temerity guest, Joanne Goldberger, She had a successful 45 year career as an idea confetti bomb in nonprofit management and fundraising. She’s looking forward to retirement at the end of this month. Her only for profit job was many years ago with the largest Mcdonald’s franchisee on Long Island in new york. Since then it was Mount Sinai Medical Center of greater Miami alexander muss high school in Israel headquartered in Miami carol Child care center in Baltimore junior achievement of central Maryland and finally retirement out of barks Baltimore animal rescue and care shelter Where she grew their $750,000 budget to over $5 million dollars you can find Joanne on facebook she’s retired and linkedin why bother Joanne Goldberger, welcome to nonprofit radio and nonprofit emeritus.

[00:02:12.04] spk_2:
Thank you so much tony and hello to all of our guests today.

[00:02:16.84] spk_1:
Yes, well you’re the guest there. The listeners,

[00:02:19.49] spk_2:
you bring

[00:02:23.94] spk_1:
Them in as guests. Yes, we have 13,000 guests. Absolutes. Congratulations. Congratulations on your retirement.

[00:02:26.58] spk_2:
Thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:02:29.14] spk_1:
What a career.

[00:02:30.24] spk_2:
It’s hard to believe 40

[00:02:32.21] spk_1:
five years.

[00:02:36.54] spk_2:
Who? Thanks now I feel old. Oh, come on. No, you got you have wisdom. It’s not, it’s not longer than most of your listeners lives. That

[00:03:18.84] spk_1:
Could be, I don’t know. Yeah, there’s a lot of listeners who are under 45. That’s probably, that’s, that’s true. But you have wisdom, its wisdom, not age. It’s wisdom, wisdom and experience. Um, no, it’s terrific. Congratulations. And uh, so you have, you have advice around and you’ve done this at many organizations getting to the next level like getting off a treadmill. What does, what does it look like? What, what does, what does the problem look like before we get into your, your ideas about get growing beyond it.

[00:04:03.34] spk_2:
Well, first of all, I’ve been with some grassroots organization and that’s exactly what it is. It’s a grassroots movement to conceive about the organization and what it can be and it’s, it’s a lengthy journey. It’s, it’s not an overnight process. So especially for those newer nonprofits and even the middle nonprofits, you need to give yourself about five years and I was very fortunate when I joined barks because I was there at the time, their first director of development. And they were wise enough to know that they wouldn’t see major results until about five years and that’s an important thought for executive directors and their boards to know when you’re embarking upon a process that it does take time and it really did take every bit of five years.

[00:04:38.74] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. So you need a long term view. But, but what is the problem look like? What what what is the, what is a nonprofit that needs to get to the next level? You know what like small, there’s lots of small donors pursuing small gifts. Talk about, talk about what the symptoms are. You know what it looks like.

[00:05:06.54] spk_2:
Um, I like to call it the moneygram because that’s what we were doing. We, um, our goal was to raise $8 million 750,000 And most of the gifts are small gifts like 50 or $65. So we were burning ourselves out trying to grab all these small gifts and you can’t do that.

[00:05:08.50] spk_1:
And your your goal was $8 million. And you were coming nowhere near

[00:05:11.82] spk_2:
It, nowhere near, not even near $1 million. Yeah. Because that’s an awful lot of small gifts to grab.

[00:05:20.23] spk_1:
It. Can’t be done. It can’t be done 50

[00:05:32.94] spk_2:
dollars at a time. No, it can’t not. And with a small staff no less to um, very few people juggling so many plates and you also need a strong board with a fiduciary responsibility. The board also has to help lead the process.

[00:05:53.14] spk_1:
Okay. And we’re gonna, we’re gonna get to, we’re gonna get to them. Absolutely. Um and events right. It’s like hosting small events That bring in $1000

[00:06:34.24] spk_2:
or $1900 like two or $300 or 300 at the time. There were only 3.5 of us in the development department and we were doing literally dozens of these tiny events every week. So we were killing ourselves and not really raising it any money but we were working around the clock, go to this event on monday and this one on Tuesday and free on Wednesday and you really need to keep the big picture in mind and really grab towards the larger dollar events and also major donors as well because it’s wonderful to have those small gifts but you really need some serious cash infusions.

[00:07:08.64] spk_1:
Yeah. Alright. So It starts with you and you just mentioned it, you know, thinking bigger, realizing what you could be. I mean so barks had an $8 million dollars goal. They were coming nowhere near raising any, not even close to that. But so they had a conception of themselves as a much bigger agency but they didn’t have a plan for getting there. They just kept doing the same thing like you can’t keep doing the same thing and expecting different results year after year after year.

[00:08:59.84] spk_2:
And that’s exactly right. And we, we felt the need to break away from the norm and that took the buy in of our executive director, who was also the founder of Bar barks to take a leap of faith and say, okay, we’re gonna stop this, tell me a minute, see the bigger picture and envision how barks could be raising millions of dollars. And one of the things we started to do right off the bat is we had an annual signature event. We still do, it’s called barks Tober fest and it’s our largest fundraiser of the year. And we struggled, struggled to raise $165,000 each year without one event. And that was through sponsorships and other smaller donations. And it it was a struggle. And then we said, okay, we’re gonna try something new. We’re gonna try instead of it being a community celebration of pets, it was going to be a celebration and reward for peer to peer fundraising for people who raised the funds for pets. And then they’re gonna party hardy at park Stober fist. And we went from the first year of raising 165,000 to over $300,000 just in the first year because we had people who are our supporters were actually raising the funds for us instead of the department, struggling to raise those funds, which of course we did too in terms of sponsorships, but it was awesome to have hundreds of people raising the funds for us and also building awareness remarks at the same time.

[00:11:10.84] spk_1:
All right. So you need to, you need to be willing to experiment right to pivot away from what you’ve been doing for year after year and it’s not getting you even to 1/8 of your goal. Uh, you need to be, you need to be willing to try something different. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They have a free webinar coming up. It’s on March 24 crisis communications, they’re gonna walk you step by step through a crisis communications protocol because you ought to have a plan for a crisis or at least the outline of a plan for how you’re going to manage internally and to the outside some kind of major problem crisis that that befalls you. Um, you know, we don’t even, we don’t even want to get into what the possible crises are. You can imagine them. So I have a plan. If you don’t have a plan or at least the outline You can join turn to its on March 24. If you can’t join live, then you sign up and they’ll send you a link to the recording. That’s the key is the recording. So you go to turn hyphen two dot c o slash webinars now back to nonprofit temerity with Joanne Goldberger, let’s talk about getting this, the executive buy in on, you know, not only the october fest, but you know, on, on, on the, the bigger conception. I mean the Ceo had it in mind though because, because there was an $8 million goal. But how did you get the buy in for pivoting the plan or just like scrapping what you had been doing and moving to something very different? How did you get the Ceo to buy into

[00:11:51.14] spk_2:
that? You know, that concept? Well, it was a process. She was already almost there because she knew we had to raise millions of dollars or the organization was going to falter. So in order to do that, just like what you said, we can’t keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting bigger results. You already proved like this is what you can raise, but this is what we need to raise. Um, and by hiring a director of development because I was the first one that they ever had. Um, they were already half on board with the idea. They knew they had to do it. And so she was trusting and we, we’ve had failures, but we’ve had more successes than failures.

[00:12:59.54] spk_1:
Alright. We’re gonna get to the, the need, you know, talking to donors about the need, We’re gonna, we’re gonna come to that, but we gotta get the, we gotta get the internal first. Um, and you know, of course, you’re sharing your experience from barks, but this was experience gained over 45 Well before barks, I guess it was 35 year career. You know, you knew what needed to be done. It’s not just, you know, this is just come to you and barks. It takes time to develop the confidence in, in a different strategy and then being able to persuade the C. Suite or the one person, the Ceo and then the, and then we’re going to get to the board, you know, about what the potential is and how best to go about this. You know, this, you know, Barcs was the culmination of a 45 year career. So you know, you gain this wisdom over a career and then Barks became the, The lucky recipient of all your 35 years of

[00:14:38.04] spk_2:
experience. And as a matter of fact, um, I had a background in marketing and public relations in nonprofit management. So it all came together at bark. So I didn’t know what to do. I was a little mortified that it was just me and 2.5 other people that had this lofty goal because I knew how much work it would take, but I was very motivated to do it. I wanted us to succeed. Um, and so I started to put a plan in place and you’ve probably heard this other times that those people that can achieve the most get the most handed to them. So in addition to having to raise at that point, several million dollars, I also had to do all the marketing, all the pr all the social media and raise the money and so everything I would come in, I looked like a deer in the headlights, like how could this be? And back in the day. I love how you’re laughing about it now. But oh dear. It wasn’t funny at the time. I know. Um but at the time if I could make one post to facebook and then two months later make another post, that would be an accomplishment instead of engaging others like you’re supposed to. But there was like no way I could get it all done. So I always kept my eye on the prize of how are we gonna raise more money because we need all hands on deck.

[00:14:44.94] spk_1:
All right, the board. How did you get the volunteer leadership to accept this? Radical change in in fundraising strategy.

[00:15:15.44] spk_2:
That too was a process because I was used to working with very high powered boards. Certainly a junior achievement. It’s all suite c suite executives from the Fortune 500 companies. And even when I worked at the alexander must high School in Israel, our benefactor with Stephen must The son who owned the fountain blue for 50 years. The fountain blue

[00:15:19.94] spk_1:
in the fountain blue in

[00:17:37.64] spk_2:
Miami in Miami. Absolute. So he wrote, I had to go pick up a check, he wrote us a check for $1 million dollars just like that, just like without the checkbook and wrote it. So when I came to barks who’s on the board, of course nobody I recognized, but it was all crazy cat ladies and I’m one of them, so I could say that and you know, pet loving people, but they had absolutely no sphere of influence. Um they weren’t able to give on their own give or get for that matter. So that was one of the hardest and longest term processes process um, to turn the board over into a fundraising board. And that took pretty much almost my entire time at barks, which got to start somewhere um because without a board with a fiduciary responsibility, you’re never going to get into the, to the bigger fundraising dollars so slowly but surely we were able to have those board members roll off and they were very dear kind people. We found other places for them at, but not on the board. And one of the first things we did was we increased the giver get which they didn’t have one. You didn’t have to even make a financial donation to be on the board at that time, but we increased it to only $3000 and that got rid of the vast majority because none of them were able to give it or raise it or get it. Um and so slowly but surely we started to bring in more notable people because as many people know if you want C suite executives on your board, they’re only going to be on a board with other C Suite executives. They need other people. And so that was a long process in identifying um members of the board that we wanted and to go after them to attract them. How do you

[00:17:42.34] spk_1:
entice the first couple of of transformational board members? The first one or two or three? How do you? And then I could see, you know, okay, now I could be affiliated with somebody else who is prominent in the area, but but that first one or two, how do you get? How do you

[00:18:36.74] spk_2:
get them? That’s a great question. tony The first thing we did was mine our database to see who’s I mean we had thousands of people in there, but who are they? And lo and behold we had a few Baltimore Orioles and at the time, but it was right across the street from Ravens Stadium, M and T Bank Stadium and Camden yards, we were right, a stone’s baseball throw away. And so we saw that one of our not donors, but one of our adopters was matt Wieters at the time. And so we reached out to him.

[00:18:40.74] spk_1:
I don’t know anything about, I don’t know anything about

[00:18:42.59] spk_2:
sports. It’s OK, he’s not an Orioles anymore, but his wife is still on our board.

[00:18:48.02] spk_1:
The Orioles. The Orioles is a football

[00:18:49.91] spk_2:
team. And now it’s it’s Baltimore oil Maryland’s baseball team.

[00:18:54.14] spk_1:
They played baseball.

[00:19:41.64] spk_2:
Okay, okay. And they used to be quite famous. Not so much now that they’re reconfiguring, but back in the day, that was a big deal to have a sports figure tied to Bart’s. So we reached out and they love their pets where they adopted from us and they agreed to be on the board. Oh, that’s fabulous. Amongst our volunteers. Of which parts has 400 active volunteers. We had somebody that was very engaged and he was um higher up in the Teamsters Union and he was very interested in joining the board and he had he knew everybody in Maryland. He really did. And so he brought with him several other board members and that’s how it started to

[00:19:52.29] spk_1:
get started. Alright, brilliant. So you, by the way, I knew that the Orioles is a baseball team. I was I was I was messing with you. Um

[00:19:59.74] spk_2:
They don’t know now though,

[00:20:02.04] spk_1:
that’s what

[00:20:03.00] spk_2:
most people don’t know who the Orioles are now. All right. What happened to them? Well, they had a changeover in players and they’re they’re they’re they’re struggling but they’re they’re on their way back.

[00:20:16.04] spk_1:
Okay, but they’re still there. They’re

[00:20:17.54] spk_2:
still in Baltimore. Okay.

[00:20:34.44] spk_1:
Go Yes of course I say that all every day I wake up saying goes um All right, so that’s alright, brilliant. You mind your own database, you found a prominent person who has a multiple adopter? All right, so it was in it was there all that time?

[00:20:37.84] spk_2:
It was

[00:20:39.14] spk_1:
right. And someone who could be a very uh major donor to you also.

[00:20:44.64] spk_2:
It

[00:20:45.95] spk_1:
is there you go. Alright, I see. And then then you got your guy from the teamsters union and then it snowballed from there

[00:20:53.54] spk_2:
and, and that’s okay.

[00:21:20.44] spk_1:
And these are folks who are going to want to be on a high powered board. Uh, so they’re gonna start to recruit their own folks as the, as the union guy did, uh, their own friends as as as donors as well as fellow board members. And the organization starts to gain prestige and not these, you know, $350 events on a Wednesday afternoon. They’re gonna think these are folks who are going to think bigger.

[00:22:34.84] spk_2:
And I have to add in that all along the process. We were building the bark story because it started off as a very sad story. We took over the animal shelter from the city who was euthanizing 98 Of 12,000 animals that came to us annually. And by raising more money we put in, we put into place more life saving programs. So gradually over time our live release rate has been at 90% since 2018. So it became the gem of Baltimore city that has so many sad stories coming out of it. But this was really a wonderful story to tell of how we were saving animals lives. And it was due to the entire city. I mean the donors, the supporters, the government, everything. Um, truly took a village. So by creating that story for barks more donors came and larger donors came and more board members came because they all wanted to be part.

[00:22:55.44] spk_1:
Okay. telling the story telling the story of how you turned it around from the, from what a city agency was doing. You almost turned it upside down from 98% kill to 90% live live and survival. Alright. Um, how does grants, How did grants? Manship grants writing play a role in this transition.

[00:24:33.14] spk_2:
So that was a very, very important role because in the beginning we had no $1000 donors, very few $100 donors for that matter. And here I came from a background with people, you know, writing a check for $10,000 or a million dollars and we don’t even have our 1st $1000 donor. So I knew from my past history in grant writing but to get a large cash infusion in the door so that we could start building programs for bars. We needed to write grants. And of course that fell on my shoulders also. Um, But I started investigating grants writing and I got our first grant and probably the first four months that we were there, um, for over $25,000 and then grew it from that point on. But that too is a process because while grants is a huge portion still of the barks budget, it brings in now almost three quarters of $1 million, you have to have okay support from your staff or your volunteers to maintain that grant, you have to implement the program, but you also have to be good stewards of that funding and do all the grant reporting that’s necessary. That comes along with it. But you can always look for volunteers. You can always look for freelance grants, writers. But it was one way I knew to get large amounts of money in the door somewhat quickly

[00:25:16.34] spk_1:
and look if you need to go outside, you know, if you do need to hire someone to do grants as you said, either on a freelance basis or maybe a part time basis, you know, maybe maybe one of your transformational donors can fund that fund that for you. So, you know, you’re, you’re trying to do you share with them the vision for where you’re trying to get to, you need some bridge money. You need grants manship, you know, could it could a donor or to help you across that bridge with by funding some professional help. If you don’t have it in in, in the form of a volunteer or in their inbox case, you know, you were there. Um, but if you have to pay for it, maybe you can get a donor to help

[00:25:30.94] spk_2:
you. That was another thing that barks always does. We always try to get everything. We can donated first before we would ever lay out any money. Um, there’s a wealth of places you can turn to for anything,

[00:29:21.14] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two just recently on linkedin, someone that I follow posted about jargon. So I of course had to mention that I have drug in jail on nonprofit radio and she said, oh, you know, sounds like a good idea she had posted against jargon. I’m not sure if there is a pro jargon lobby, but she was anti jargon. So she loved the idea and then she asked, how does somebody get out of jargon jail? So that was the impetus for me to uh codify jargon jail enforcement. So we now have a jargon jail enforcement protocol, which I am going to read from because you know, I don’t want to misquote the statute because the slightest comma or word, you know, can make a difference in statutory interpretation. So here’s our drug and jail statute. If a guest defines the jargon on their own, they’re sentenced to only probation, no jail time. Then if I have to call them out as offenders and they show contrition and then define their jargon, they’re granted parole. So if I have to identify it and then um, they do show contrition and then they define their jargon. Okay, they get parole. But if there’s no contrition and or no definition of their jargon, they remain in drug in jail and I shut off their mic end quote. Now that draconian punishment has never been meted out on nonprofit radio but it remains on the books, it’s on the books show host. Oh well I guess there is a little bit more show host is judge and jury and there are no appeals available. Okay, end quote. So there’s our jargon jail enforcement regimen statute for jargon jail. I have to give credit to Claire Meyerhoff, our creative producer. She came up with this idea At the beginning of the show 12 years ago. She thought of Jargon jail of course when when someone transgresses the drug in jail statutory enforcement mechanism is triggered against that scofflaw. It has to be, we have to have a, we live in a society based on law and order, right? We know this. So there has to be guardrails boundaries around bad behavior That is Tony’s take two, we’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for nonprofit temerity with Joanne Goldberger and I hope that you are enjoying this new nonprofit radio feature, non profit temerity, let’s turn outside now you start, you’ve got a, you’ve got a much stronger board, a giving board. You’re telling a very different story about barks. Um, the Ceo has been on board for years now you’re starting to go out to external folks. You know, attracting major donors. Let’s talk about how you get those uh, you know or whatever stage it came at, you get those first several $1000 donors and then you’re looking for investment level donors, 10,015 25 $50,000 donors. How do you start attracting these folks?

[00:31:36.84] spk_2:
Well, one thing that we did when we started to get some funding in the door, it was a necessity, a necessity to grow the development staff, Joanne couldn’t do it all anymore. It was, it was too hard. So we started to grow the development staff, which today from 3.5 people when I started is now 10 people. So it’s huge. But we were very fortunate that the leadership and the executive director saw the need like, oh, who wants to add development staff? Nobody wants to do that. They want to add everything else, but they realized in order to make money, you have to invest in the staff. And so we started to grow people internally who could cultivate these major donors and take the time again to look in the database. Because what good was amassing a database if you’re not doing anything with it. Um, and looking to see who those people are. And as you probably know, people love to give to success, not rats off a sinking ship. They want to get, you know, gone are the days of um, terrified fundraising, where it’s like, oh my God, we’re gonna close our doors if you don’t give us money, well, nobody’s gonna give you money because you’re closing your doors. So why should they? But if you could build a story of success and get that out there, um, the donors come to you and that’s exactly what was happening. As soon as we started to get a few $1000 donors, we got more and more and then we started to get monthly donors, which we never had. Um, so we started to build up that base of monthly donors as well. And the board was doing and is doing a tremendous job of attracting others to also donate to Barks.

[00:32:07.14] spk_1:
So the organization has to invest in growth and then the, and in which includes investing in fundraising. You know, you hire professional fundraisers and then you can get those donors to invest in the organization, but you have to invest in growth first in your own growth and then you can attract those investment level gifts

[00:32:36.94] spk_2:
and you’ll also have to paint your organization’s picture as once as, as one of success, no matter what’s happening internally, you still have to paint a positive picture because if you don’t, unfortunately you’ll be dead in the water. Um, because for many years, Barks was euthanizing for space every day Every day. But we didn’t paint that picture. We painted a much brighter picture and a better day where we would be able to reach a 90% live release rate and that’s what people wanted to hear. And that’s what we were able to achieve with their help

[00:32:54.64] spk_1:
right now, we’re getting into the, uh, Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos territory. Remember you know the woman with the pin prick, you know what I’m talking about? She just just had her

[00:33:04.75] spk_2:
trial the

[00:33:06.50] spk_1:
Pin the pin prick technology that was going to diagnose 30 or three

[00:33:09.89] spk_2:
100 different

[00:33:15.14] spk_1:
additions. Yeah. Alright. Right. But you you achieved, You got to where you were telling people you wanted to be, you got to that 90% live release rate

[00:33:46.14] spk_2:
and that was always um the apple or the carrot that we were reaching for um That that was always the mission of barks to turn around that 2% live release rate and change it to 90%. So we knew what we had to do internally. Forget fundraising. We knew what we had to do internally and add all those life saving programs to do it. So that’s why I said in addition to fundraising, you have to be building your organization story and that’s what we were doing behind the scenes and that’s what we were doing with every penny that we raised.

[00:34:09.84] spk_1:
Okay, excellent. Thank you. What did you do with some of those crazy cat lady, former board members. How did they

[00:35:24.84] spk_2:
were really crazy tony It’s a, it’s a term of endearment in animal welfare to call somebody a crazy cat and they’re crazy about cats. But we had like I said a huge volunteer program, we needed cats socialize ear’s and dog walkers. So they clearly loved cats, so we trained them and it’s like come in every day and work with the 110 cats that we have every day, they need socialization so that they could get adopted. So they were happy to do that. And I kid you not somewhere quite piste off that we all of a sudden said, Okay the give or get is $3,000 and they just like stormed off and you know, there was nothing really we could do about that because in essence while we would love to have them back as a volunteer, we wouldn’t love to have them back as a board member. So we had to let those people walk. But um some of them stayed on as volunteers and either door walking of cats socializing. So we’re happy to have them. And I think they were much happier doing that than being on the board.

[00:35:29.54] spk_1:
Okay. Alright. What else? What else haven’t I asked you about now that to make this transformational change.

[00:38:36.52] spk_2:
What other advice do you have? One other thing that barks is really known for is out of the box thinking for how to raise money. Um and I’m gonna give you a few examples in a moment. But if you know who your constituents are and what they love, You play to that audience. So let me explain still to this day are average gifts is only $65, but we get thousands of them and when Joanne was doing social media, that was a joke because I really wasn’t. Right. Right and never looked back. But when we had enough funding, the first person that we hired with, somebody that lived with social media and did social media for bart. And she’ll tell you um, that she was working 24 7 because 23 in the morning, she was checking her phone for anything that she posted, she was engaging donors, um, or engaging followers. And so we used to have a following of 7500 followers and today it’s almost 200,000 and having that many also attracts many corporate sponsors and other people interested in you being an influencer. So that was one of the things we did and she was super creative. So we know that our funding bases primary primarily millennials. And so what do we do? We and this is all attributed to her who is now. She’s taking my role as I twilight away. She’s the director of community engagement we had. And some of you, some of your listeners may have seen it or may have seen it around the country Because everybody knocked us off once we did it bad pet portraits for $10 And our staff and our volunteers draw the most hideous pet portraits you’d ever want. Um, you would pay $10 and send us a photo of your pet and somebody would draw it. Now some of them were beautiful but some look like the pointed teeth. They look like vampires. It was great, but it was so funny and so unusual That it raised us $10,000 with just $10 donations. We had a dog wedding a few years ago because we knew our audience would eat it up and they did the tickets sold out like crazy. And we raised $30,000 from it and we got every single thing donated including The hotel Banquet Hall, all the food, all the liquor, all the music, everything was donated. I don’t think we laid out $300 for the whole thing.

[00:38:49.92] spk_1:
And you married

[00:39:38.52] spk_2:
a dog couple because that was blasted across social media. Everybody couldn’t wait for the big day. We had flour kittens, not flower girls with flour kittens. I mean that was the whole shebang. And one thing I always wanted to do was have a bark mitzvah and I never got to do it, but will one day, but I always had a tiny one. It was many years ago, but I really wanted to do a big one based on the success of the dog wedding and the bride I had was handicapped and had a wheelchair attached to our hind quarters and a very handsome groom. That’s that’s just a well I love you know, yeah,

[00:39:44.55] spk_1:
I love the bark mitzvah too.

[00:39:45.92] spk_2:
That’s yeah, I always wanted to do

[00:39:48.70] spk_1:
that’s better bark mitzvah is better than barks to Beerfest Octoberfest. Alright. But bark mitzvah

[00:39:54.96] spk_2:
works better. Alright.

[00:40:10.91] spk_1:
They’ll get there. All right. But the but the lessons are again, investing in the organization. They they they hired a social manager, somebody or somebody who was deeply invested, obviously deeply loved animals and

[00:41:19.61] spk_2:
All those stories. And that’s another thing. You know, when I was doing my one post every other month, barks gets in 30 to 35 animals every day of the year. There’s so many stories were never lacking for stories and that’s prime for social media, but I couldn’t do it. I definitely needed a person and now we have almost three people at barks doing it because there’s so many followers and there’s so much engagement. A lot of it comes from it and I have to add one other thing. We raised $350,000 a year. Just on Facebook, just from those followers, be it their birthday celebration and they have a fundraiser or just asking outright for donations for very specific animals. Um we raise a lot of money just on facebook, so it was well well worth the investment because the board and the executive director would say, well, you know, we’ve got to pay 40 or $50,000 at the time to hire somebody plus the benefit package. How do we know we’re gonna make that back, We’ll just in facebook we’re raising $350,000 a year. So I think we made it back? Excellent investment,

[00:41:49.81] spk_1:
right? Multiple times. Alright. But that’s an interesting point. What do you say to that? Well, how do we know, how do we know we’re going to get a return on this person? We got to pay $50,000 plus 20 or 30% for benefits. What, how do we know this is gonna be fruitful for us?

[00:42:22.60] spk_2:
And again, it’s just a matter of trust and knowing what could be. And it was a gamble. We had to see and everybody at barks a super motivated, they truly loved animals and will do anything to succeed. And she certainly did. And the money started rolling in. But it could have gone the other way. It could have. But we did our research and we were pretty confident that we would be able to raise a vast amount of money just with social media.

[00:42:37.20] spk_1:
Okay, Again, the willingness to try, you can’t keep doing things the same way as we said, willingness to try something different. Make make the investment

[00:42:38.44] spk_2:
All right. And I should add one other thing if it was to fail. We had plenty of roles in fundraising for her to take over instead. So even though she was doing social media, believe me, there was plenty of place for her if it didn’t pay off.

[00:42:58.90] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. So what does barks look like now after the transformation, you said you said 10 people is that 10 people doing fundraising

[00:43:55.60] spk_2:
all, all different aspects of it, including marketing, public relations and social media. Um it’s all lumped together as um community engagement. So we have somebody just working with corporate donors. Two people working with social media. I was doing grants writing. Um, and then we had other people working with donors under $250 and over $250. So everybody has a little piece of the puzzle so that it’s manageable because in the beginning it wasn’t manageable. Um, we just had to try everything. But you know, this high burnout when you, when you’re juggling that many plates, um, without extra help. So we’re very fortunate now that everybody is doing a certain aspect of development.

[00:44:05.69] spk_1:
So what does barks overall look like now is a $5 million dollar a year agency.

[00:44:10.37] spk_2:
So the goal is still $8 million. Alright, well you’re a lot

[00:44:14.92] spk_1:
held a lot closer than you

[00:45:12.99] spk_2:
were. That that would be the tipping point for barks where we would be able to do everything that we really wanted to do. So we were already raising close to 5,000,002 years ago before Covid, then Covid struck. So of course we had to pivot along with the rest of the world and it was truly grants and the payroll protection plan that helped keep barks afloat during Covid because everybody feared their fundraising tanking and we were very fortunate for the past two years To maintain our fundraising level at $5 million. So we sustained it? But we didn’t grow, but at least we didn’t shrink either. So now we’re starting to bring back in person events, dog weddings coming back again this year. Um, And so we’re poised to start increasing and heading again to that $8 million dollars goal, which is achievable. It’s just, we had a two year slowdown along with everybody else.

[00:45:45.39] spk_1:
All right. Uh, it’s a, it’s a terrific story of transformation, but it’s built on your, On your 35 years before that and now a 45 year career, you know, that that’s the, that’s the value of experience. You know, what to do

[00:45:50.08] spk_2:
have survived

[00:46:31.08] spk_1:
And, and or how to get it done. You know, it’s fine to have an $8 million dollars goal, but you have to have a plan for getting there. So, you know, all the things we talked about about conceiving your organization differently. Getting executive buy in dealing with the board, getting thereby in talking to and transforming the board. Talking to donors about the need, expanding the donor base, grants manship as a transitional tool. That was key. Um, telling the right story, transforming the organization. You know, it’s, these are great lessons, Joanne, your, your, your perfect. Thank you. Congratulations.

[00:46:33.27] spk_2:
Congratulations.

[00:46:41.08] spk_1:
What you did at barks, Congratulations on your retirement, Joanne Goldberger, you’ll find her on facebook, which makes a lot of sense, linkedin. How long is that linkedin? You’re gonna, you’re gonna stay on

[00:46:44.99] spk_2:
linkedin. Why why bother it’s gonna say retired job. Okay, right, yeah,

[00:46:56.88] spk_1:
put some confetti bomb around that. Exactly right, all right, Joanne, thank you very much.

[00:46:58.33] spk_2:
Thanks for sharing your most welcome. Thank you tony

[00:48:16.88] spk_1:
If you know someone appropriate for nonprofit radio temerity, non profit temerity on nonprofit radio please nominate them. You can use tony-martignetti dot com. You can email me tony at tony-martignetti dot com. They should have retired From a long career in nonprofits at least 30 years and please they should have good ideas. Please don’t nominate a mediocre lackluster retiree that’s the status is reserved for me, although I’m not retired yet but I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna have to tell somebody that their ideas are mediocre or middling so please don’t put me in that position. Smart retirees, those are the ones we want smart retirees with a long non profit career, let me know about those folks that is non profit temerity next week fail forward if you missed any part of this week’s show I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff

[00:48:34.48] spk_0:
shows social media is by Susan Chavez marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein? Thank you for that affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95

[00:48:43.68] spk_1:
Go out and be great, mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for August 16, 2021: Virtual Events & Design For Non-Designers

My Guests:

Evan Briggs & Gwenn Cagann: Virtual Events

Evan Briggs and Gwenn Cagann share their lessons from 25 virtual galas, which include takeaways for your next hybrid event. They’re both with Wingo NYC.

 

 

 

 

Josh Riman & Mike Yamagata: Design For Non-Designers

Wrapping up our 21NTC coverage, it’s a crash course in good design, covering fundamentals like color, type and hierarchy. Step outside your comfort zone with Josh Riman and Mike Yamagata, both from Great Believer.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:10.74] spk_5:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:13.06] spk_4:
non profit

[00:02:17.44] spk_1:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of interception if you blocked me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show virtual events. Evan Briggs and Gwen Sagen share their lessons from 25 virtual galas which include takeaways for your next hybrid event. They’re both with wing go N.Y.C. and designed for non designers Wrapping up our 21 NTC coverage. It’s a crash course in good design covering fundamentals like colour type and hierarchy. Step outside your comfort zone with josh, Lyman and Mike Yamagata, both are from great believer. This week’s conversations are from 21 NTC and they wrap up our coverage of the conference and tony state too, sharing really is caring. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue. Let’s get started. Here is virtual events. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC, you know what that is. It’s the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot C o with me now from wingO N.Y.C. our Evan Briggs and Gwen Sagen Evan is digital fundraising and client engagement manager and Gwen is director of special events fundraising. Welcome Evan. Welcome, Gwen.

[00:02:23.64] spk_2:
Thank you. My

[00:02:25.41] spk_1:
pleasure. Uh, why doesn’t one of you? Uh, well, I’ll pick otherwise everybody was so polite. You work together and nobody will talk and then I’ll end up having to pick anyway, So, Gwen, uh, since you’re both from window N.Y.C. why don’t you acquaint us what lingo does.

[00:03:00.44] spk_2:
Thank you. Wingo is a small fundraising communications and design firm. Um, we have and call ourselves a boutique because we’re so small. We’re 12 people and we specialize in working with nonprofit clients, although we do have some corporate clients, but nonprofit clients that work in the social justice sector. Um and that’s probably about 70% of what we do and the remaining 30% or arts and conservancies and we help nonprofits with their individual giving and major donor fundraising and their special events.

[00:03:14.34] spk_1:
All right. And we’re gonna talk about special events. Um are where are each of you in each of you? In N.Y.C.

[00:03:21.94] spk_4:
I am in new york city.

[00:03:23.84] spk_1:
Okay. Where where what

[00:03:25.64] spk_4:
part? Um in Manhattan Health kitchen specifically.

[00:03:28.26] spk_1:
Alright, 9th and 10th of

[00:03:30.39] spk_4:
What? In between 9th and 10th on 49,

[00:03:52.14] spk_1:
Lot of good restaurants. Uh, 9th of from like 43rd and 44th up to like 55th or so, roughly 50, maybe 53. Some a lot Outstanding restaurants all along, 95. I’m envious of your food choices. There’s everything from Afghan. The Zimbabwe is on 9th. I think there was like 10, 12 blocks or so.

[00:03:58.44] spk_4:
Yeah, exactly. And it’s like almost feels like europe now with all the outdoor dining, they’ve completely shut down some streets and it’s just quite lovely.

[00:04:07.40] spk_1:
Right, right, so not ninth that they didn’t close. 9th of though, have they?

[00:04:11.10] spk_4:
Not 9th at but the side streets

[00:04:20.84] spk_1:
that go off of it. Right, right. We need folks need ninth, they have to get to haunt tunnel every day, Lincoln Lincoln, I should say in your neighborhood Lincoln tunnel every day. Gwen all right, so gwen, you’re an outlier, you’re not an N.Y.C. Where are you?

[00:04:24.94] spk_2:
Um I am actually, although I, when I’m in the city, you know pre pandemic in Boerum Hill Brooklyn. Um and right now though I’m writing out the pandemic in Jackson Wyoming, we have a small family place out here and I came out for a week vacation when things went isolated and haven’t left.

[00:04:44.94] spk_1:
Yeah, the week vacation that, that hasn’t ended yet in over

[00:04:47.72] spk_2:
a year in the great outdoors.

[00:04:49.84] spk_1:
Yeah, cool. So your window, your window Wyoming?

[00:04:52.84] spk_2:
Exactly and we have a window India to right now one of our graphic designers is based in India where she was writing about the pandemic and so we’re worldwide.

[00:05:06.84] spk_1:
Okay, that’s strictly N.Y.C. alright, your Boerum Hill. So you live in Boerum Hill. Yeah. Remember the park slope food co op by any chance

[00:05:13.62] spk_2:
know, but a couple of my colleagues are half of us live in Brooklyn and yeah, so I know it’s changed a lot during the pandemic with the work hours and such, but what a great place.

[00:05:57.74] spk_1:
It is a great place and I’m still a member. I live on the beach in north Carolina. I’m still a member of park slope food go up. Uh you know, they suspended the, they suspended the work requirements for the whole year. Now, they’re just slowly getting back into the member work requirement, but it’s optional for several months. And you know, I don’t know when I’ll be back up, but uh I maintain my membership in the go up because before that you could bank your shift, you could do, you could work a bunch of months. Uh you could work a bunch of shifts like in a week or even in a months and have them for subsequent months for many, many months. So I never lived

[00:05:58.31] spk_3:
in a community.

[00:06:27.74] spk_1:
It’s a great, it is great community park slope food co op shout out. I’m gonna be one of the most distant members. I mean north Carolina, you know, it’s not, it’s not easy to get there, but it’s, I keep my membership, it’s still worth it. All right, so we should be talking about your N.Y.C. you’re not your window N.Y.C. topic, you’re 21 ntc topic, which is a virtual events for the masses inclusive and interactive gatherings, Evan, what what is this all about? You’ve got uh you did like window did like 25 virtual galas in 2020. What you’ve got lessons for us.

[00:07:21.34] spk_4:
Yeah, we um, we quickly pivoted to uh throwing virtual events for our clients. A big part of our business, pre pandemic was was in person events, big Gallas and even smaller donors cultivation events and our firm learned quickly how to transform that experience into a virtual experience. Um, and we’ve had great success and continue to have great success um, with the, with the virtual events. Um you know, we create a space virtually on a platform where folks can gather and interact and have a really sort of intimate moment with, with the charity and we’ve found that fundraising has met or exceeded all of our, all of our goals um, for each of our clients and yeah, it’s, it’s something that we think is here to stay and you know,

[00:07:31.69] spk_1:
why is that why are virtual events going to continue when we can return safely to in person events?

[00:07:37.84] spk_4:
Um, I think people just learned that there’s, there’s so much benefit to having a virtual event. Um

[00:07:43.63] spk_1:
you know,

[00:07:44.32] spk_4:
one of the most obvious reasons is that so many people can, can gather

[00:07:47.87] spk_5:
um from

[00:08:17.54] spk_4:
all over the world and you know, the, we suggested to all of our clients that they make these events free to join um and then still offer sponsorships and other ways to donate. One of the big moments that we always have in each of our virtual events is what we call our live ask. So there’s still a moment where, you know, at a typical gala, there’d be a paddle raise or live auction. We’ve adapted that to a virtual moment and you still feel that energy and get to, uh, you know, have a night of successful fundraising with, you know, sometimes up to 1000 people, sometimes more.

[00:08:48.94] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. So remaining remaining relevant virtual events and uh, so I gather you have a bunch of, a bunch of ideas, like some new, I don’t know, maybe their new best practices or tips tools, strategies for successful virtual events. Is that, is that right? You’re gonna share a bunch of what you learned, how we’re going to bring in some, uh, inclusivity as well. Do I have that?

[00:10:17.94] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ll jump in here. I mean, you know, add on to what Evan said, um, that inclusivity by making it open to a broader range of people, not only your major donors that could afford that $500,000 dinner ticket when we were in person, but also everyone staff clients, People that benefit from the work of the non profit organization, really just reinforce all the positive things about your organization’s community. So the major donors feel great because they’re actually getting to interact with, as I said, some of the people that are benefiting from the programs and you know, it hits home in a really different way. You also get to grow your list. So all of those and we’re saying that, you know, somewhere between twice as many and three times as many people register for these events as you would get in the room. So let’s say you had a 400 person gala at Chelsea piers, see the dinner, you could get a, you know, 800 people registered for your event, usually about 70% of those actually tune in that evening. Um those are 300 new people, you know that you can, you know do some research on prospect with them if they come to the event, they now know about your organization, and so you know it’s a great way to grow your list, it’s really hard to grow your list in in real life, it has been traditionally and so that’s when big benefit in addition to this, just community feel and people really getting to know your organization and be interactive with it.

[00:10:27.99] spk_1:
All right, Gwen, let’s stay with you, let’s get into some ideas that you have about producing successful events. What should we start with?

[00:13:46.24] spk_2:
Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest things is with virtual events is to be creative, there is no one cookie cutter way to do it for all in our opinion, you know, we do, Evan can talk later about some of the platforms we use if that’s going to be relevant to this conversation, but you know, we have a platform that works, but it’s really flexible for whatever program the client wants to put on and, you know, we highly recommend not just translating, you know, speakers at a podium to the virtual world. We want to make it much more engaging and exciting, fast paced dynamic. Um and so one of the biggest things we like to do is a little bit of what we’re doing today, have your speakers in conversation, and that could be honorees in conversation with someone who would traditionally present them in the world world, but it doesn’t even have to be that formulaic or formatted. It can be um an honoree in conversation with an expert in the field of what, you know, let’s say you’re doing immigration or foster care work, who are those experts in the field, let’s work them in because that’s a big part of what your audience is going to be engaged in hearing from. Obviously if you can get some celebrities, it’s wonderful. Um we do find that we’ve been able to get yeses for more celebrities in the virtual world than we did in the real world. I think part of it is because um even though there’s an event day that we stream on this event, we do pre record most of it, that’s the, you know, behind the scenes real life um reality. Um we primarily do that because we want to ensure a seamless experience. Um and prerecorded can still be totally relevant, totally topical. Um you know, during the heights of the pandemic and the craziness of the previous administration, we did end up when there was some, something crazy in the news, we did end up re recording, say um an executive directors piece, very, very close to the event because something relevant happened that, you know, we don’t want to be tone deaf about. So anyway, pre recording really helps as well. And then it helps again with those high profile people, whether they be on res or donors, um you know, who you want to get speakers or celebrities because um you know, you can do it around their schedule. Um also we just find that some very many of these high profile people who may have had just insane travel schedules, you know, our were more available and certainly, you know, had such a big urge to get back. So that was a big piece of it. Um the other um thing that we highly recommend is to share the record and share the event. You know, use it more than event day. You can either, you know, distribute it via your blast on your website through um, you know, as the full piece, which is great to do, but then also, you know, create some video clips um and share those unsocial and wherever you can for the relevant audiences. Uh and then I guess the last big piece and and maybe this should be a whole section of conversation today is looking to the future and hybrid event. So you know, depending on when you want to fit that and we can talk about that as well.

[00:15:28.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help nonprofits like your nonprofit tell compelling stories and gain attention like attention in the Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the chronicle of philanthropy and lots of other outlets. You’ve been hearing me name, Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to virtual events. I love the idea of recognizing that you’re honorees and celebrities are so much more available for a virtual event and pre recording to, to present during the event. Um honorary, honorary timing can be a bet. Yeah, I’d love to be your honoree, but you know, I’m gonna be in new Zealand that week so I, I can’t do it. But you know, you could record from new Zealand or we can record from your home six weeks in advance. You know, it’s very good, very good point. Maybe that’s obvious it’s probably obvious to those of you who are doing events. Uh, I’m a lay person. I’m just, I’m learning this for the, for the 25 minutes or so that were together. So you spend your time studying this. Um, is that all the, the Evan, is that, is that all the strategies be creative pre record, you know, try to leverage celebrities, celebrity availability, honoree availability, share. Repurpose. Uh We could talk maybe about hybrid any any other tips though before we move onto platforms and resources.

[00:16:27.74] spk_4:
Yeah I mean one thing just to add on to the prerecorded tip is you know we do also Sprinkle in um some some live moments and you know and we and we do that strategically so we do reinforce that feeling that this is happening live throughout the event. And then you know we often will have our live moment directly in the middle or in the first half sometimes we’ll open up with a with a live em see that’s another great tip for a virtual event is to to have an EMC who can tie everything together, who’s really energetic um who can end you know can also interact with guests as they’re chatting. Um That really uh we found that the chat is crucial which is um which is why the platform is so so important when producing a virtual event. You know, we uh made a decision not to do our events on our most of our events on zoom because people are you know a little zoomed out and zoomed fatigue.

[00:17:08.54] spk_1:
We’re gonna we’re gonna get we’re gonna get to the platform. Um but the interesting it sounds like you need some you need an M. C. With a little higher higher capacity because all the moments are not gonna be scripted ideally because like suppose there’s a technical glitch, you know you want an EMC who can make fun of it be flexible not get flustered because you know they have to do a little tap dance for for a minute or two while you figure out the back end problem or something. So it sounds like you need a and see a little more uh yeah bring a little more to the game. Yeah that’s

[00:17:45.14] spk_4:
that’s ideal. I mean we you know we’ve also worked with with folks who aren’t professional M. C. S. And part of window service is we are day of support so we on that back end are all on a conference call you know in a headphone in the M. C. S. Ear in case one of these you know glitches happens or we need to communicate something or you know we just had a $75,000 gift. Um So you know really another beautiful thing about ritual events is that they really are you know opportunities for everyone, you don’t have to have a professional EMC does help you know but not required.

[00:18:19.74] spk_1:
It sounds like great fun. I would like if you if you ever if you ever need of an M. C. I would love to do something like that. Uh You seem great. I would love it. I love the flat. I mean I’ve done improv, I’ve done stand up comedy but I’m not trying to give you my resume but it just sounds like fun, it could be great you know, there’s a great energy and you got the producers in your ear, helping, you know, coaching through and, you know, and then you you’re on your wing it for a couple seconds, or like a great gift announcement, Whoa, you know, bring that person up, whatever. All right. Um All right, so what’s the, what’s this cool platform? That’s uh supersedes zoom.

[00:18:28.94] spk_4:
Well, there’s, you know, there’s a number of platforms, The one that we’ve been using primarily is called demio. Um it’s

[00:18:29.69] spk_1:
a

[00:19:07.54] spk_4:
demio demio D E M I O um it’s very intuitive, it’s beautifully designed. You can customize it. The chat function is, you know, very easy to use and fun, you know, it’s not it’s not hidden. You can use emojis, that’s another great thing for this. Um for the chat is the use of emojis or GIFs, um, ways to express an emotion, right? You can also tag people um, so you can speak to them specifically. Um and we’re seeing that, you know, more and more of these platforms are popping up and increasing and that interactivity element more and more, but Demi has been our preferred platform

[00:20:08.74] spk_2:
and the other real important, really important reason. We started with demio and then just Evan and our other team members do a lot of research. Probably weekly on what tuck has changed, you know, should we stick with this or try something else and they keep reinforcing that, this is the right one, but what I was going to say is that there’s a real ease of registration for people, you know, for guests coming to the event and that was really important to us. Well in the beginning zoom was you know, sometimes if you didn’t have the latest app you wouldn’t have the audio or you know it was difficult, I know zoom is really smooth out, but still this is easier than the zoom app, people literally put in their name, their email address, they get a unique link to click on reminders, come to them a day ahead, three hours ahead, 15 minutes ahead, they click in there in and the unique link is nice too, because then you don’t have to worry about someone getting in and zoom bombing or what have you, so you know it really is sort of a great gatekeeper, gatekeeper and really easy to use and then for those producing the event um what we don’t want to forget is that it’s incredibly great for uploading our content, switching between live and pre recorded um going to that live text to pledge moment that have been referenced, so you know, there’s some real advantages to delivering a seamless event as possible.

[00:20:41.84] spk_1:
Gwen, would you just reinforce it please and just spell demio again?

[00:20:45.12] spk_2:
Yeah, I d like dog e m I O demio

[00:20:49.52] spk_1:
alright, thank you, thank you.

[00:21:13.44] spk_4:
And one thing I will, I’m sorry, I will just say is that sometimes what we’ll do is tack on a zoom after party to radio events. So to me is sort of like the main event. This is when you go and you see and you hear and you fundraise and then, um, we, you know, even auto directs people to the zoom afterparty. If that is something that you’re planning, um, where folks can actually get on camera and see each other, we can, you know, do a toast. We’ve done dance parties. Um,

[00:21:55.84] spk_1:
you gotta move on. That’s cool. I love the idea of the after party though. Cool. And after party for virtually all right. Um, you know, we’ve had, I’ve had a bunch of guests from ntc talk about inclusivity. Uh, so I’m gonna, we’re gonna, we’re gonna pass that part with the three of us. But I would like to talk about communicating with these new supporters, Gwen, that you said, you know, you could end up with hundreds of folks that wouldn’t have attended your, your, your in person event virtually obviously because they can come in from all over the world. Uh, we just have a couple minutes more left. So what’s your advice around engaging folks who are new to your organization? First time was is this terrific demio based event.

[00:23:45.94] spk_2:
Yeah, exactly. Well, what we are finding to that many of these new uh, guess, you know, become donors that night they donate in the text to pledge, which is just the first step. And so of course the biggest thing right away is acknowledging and thanking and then, um, which happens right after the event. Every donor to the text to pledge and to the event. You know, anyone who’s, who’s donated any amount, um, pre or at and then post event when we do send out the full event recording, we do give another opportunity to text to pledge. And then, yeah, it’s the thinking. It’s just the ongoing blocking and tackling and cultivation. So, you know, we would add those people to our clients email list. We would include them in our newsletters are ongoing e blast. Um, I will say, you know, we would recommend that the organization screen and rate their new donors like, you know, a traditional, you know, fundraising approach. Let’s take a look at these people owe somebody gave us $1,000 that night. If they give us 1000, there’s probably a lot of capacity there. Let’s do a little more research. And for anyone who’s a real real major donor, um, they should get thanked more personally. So maybe the executive director reaches out after the event and thanks them or you know, has a virtual coffee with them down the road. But you know, just slowly inappropriately. You know, seeing how interested they are in the event and see how you can engage them down the road both as a donor, maybe as a board member, maybe as a volunteer. If your organization has a lot of volunteer opportunities, but you know, just to engage because they came and they got involved.

[00:23:50.14] spk_1:
Can you say a little more going about what to do maybe in the the days following the event that that first, that first follow up opportunity, can you drill down a little more?

[00:24:12.64] spk_2:
Yeah, exactly. We highly recommend a post event. He blessed the exact day after or you know, if for some reason you did an extra day um, within within a couple of days of the event to thank everyone for coming, share the full event, recording with your list. Anyone who both signed up to come but didn’t tune in and are your list of who didn’t sign up to come because now you can see it right? People are busy and while we are experiencing an increased number of people joining these events, there’s obviously a lot of people that just can’t on a given day. So you know, that post event d blast is really important. And again, to give one more opportunity to give to the event and support the work and then sending those, thank you an acknowledgement letters that actually are, you know, the official tax letter that people can use in their, in their tax taxes, um, with any donations that have been made. And then just, you know, I’m going um, can be staying in touch with donors. Um, you know, we recommend that, um, that people use e blast, you know, at least you know, monthly, um, and social posts to stay in touch with donors and then ideally maybe a quarterly newsletter. And then if it’s appropriate, if you can segment your list enough, even some special donor communications a couple of times a year to those most major donors that are a little more inside re

[00:25:26.15] spk_1:
okay. Okay.

[00:25:27.94] spk_2:
And when we can get back into it cultivation events, you know, we love having, you know, pre pandemic and we’ve actually got a couple tentatively scheduled for the fall. You know, that would be outdoor. You know, like a person who has a building with a rooftop, you know, invite, you know, a small group of people to gather and hear from the executive director of the program. People about what’s new and what’s been going on with the organization. We feel like there’s a lot of pent up demand for that.

[00:26:02.14] spk_1:
Don’t feel the events don’t feel the events. All right. Evan. We just have a minute or so left. So why don’t you just leave us with some last minute motivation,

[00:26:39.84] spk_4:
um, motivation for virtual events. I would say do one, do one, do one. There’s, you know, the world is really your oyster. Um, start with developing a run of show that is less than one hour. That’s, that’s the time that we, um, recommend. And just think about the story that you want to tell and then the folks that you want to tell it. Um and you can, you can produce a virtual event on any budget um and you know, do it within three months even less. Um it’s something that you won’t regret and it will live in perpetuity.

[00:26:58.84] spk_1:
All right in perpetuity. Well nothing is better than that. That’s Evan Briggs client and digital fundraising and client engagement manager at window. N.Y.C. along with Gwen, Socgen, Director of special events fundraising also at wingo, N.Y.C. Evan and Gwen, thank you very much.

[00:27:07.77] spk_2:
Thank you. Thank you so much. tony pleasure all you about EMC

[00:30:35.54] spk_1:
Yeah, wait, let me get to my art show for our audience. Thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 Ntc were sponsored by turn to communicate, we should be sponsored by window with all these shout outs but we’re not. We’re sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. It’s time for Tony’s take two sharing really is caring who can you share? non profit radio with may I make a suggestion Ceos Executive directors board members, non profit radio has proven to be valuable for these folks, I hear the feedback from them in this way it sparks conversations, it stimulates thinking, it broadens perspective, gives you something to think about. Maybe even and to talk about and then maybe even act on in your non profit so these conversations these thoughts often start at the leadership level so that’s why I’m saying ceo Executive director board member uh, I think last week’s Show is a perfect example of that. The performance improvement. Talking about the 360 assessments, 3 60 feedback ideal for leadership to think about as a method of performance improvement for for a team. Um, this week’s show, this week’s show more of an example of something that someone in leadership would share with the folks on their team that it’s appropriate for. So virtual events. Um uh, goes to the folks who are thinking about working on, not just thinking about, but who work on events. The design for non designers. If that applies in someone’s organization then they’re likely to pass it on that you know, every every shop can’t afford a design, a designer or design team certainly or even necessarily freelance consulting to help with design as you will hear my guests josh and mike say so in that case it’s leadership passing on segments, conversations that are appropriate to the folks that they’re right for. So C E O s executive directors, board members, they are terrific listeners. They get value from nonprofit radio do you know someone in one of those positions that you can share? non profit radio with, I’d be grateful if you do please sharing is caring, thanks very much for sharing. non profit video That is Tony’s take two now it’s time for designed for non designers welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 Ntc the 2021 nonprofit technology conference were sponsored at 21. Ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. With me. Now our josh, Lyman and Mike, Yamagata, they’re both from Great Believer. Josh is founder and president. Mike is art director. Welcome josh. Mike Welcome from Great Believer.

[00:30:38.84] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks tony

[00:30:40.17] spk_1:
My pleasure. And josh welcome back to a nonprofit radio

[00:30:43.74] spk_3:
Happy to be back to timer.

[00:30:53.14] spk_1:
Yes, we’re talking about the design designed. Your session was designed tips for the non designer. I’m actually gonna start with you mike as the designer as the art director, we can actually do this. We can, we can instill some some degree of design in people in like less than half an hour.

[00:31:05.44] spk_0:
We can. It is possible. Yes. Uh, there’s just some fundamentals and you just have to know it and where you go.

[00:31:22.04] spk_1:
All right, we’ll see where we go. Right. My extent of my design is symmetry. That’s all I know. That’s all I can do. If you go to my yard outside my yard, it’s symmetric. Uh, if you look at my, I don’t know, you look at my furniture, it’s symmetric. Um, when I draw something, it’s a house with a roof and there’s a window on each side of the house, so straight symmetry.

[00:31:33.81] spk_3:
No chimney.

[00:31:34.99] spk_1:
Maybe you could help me? Part of me was that josh?

[00:31:38.03] spk_3:
I said no chimney on that house.

[00:32:00.34] spk_1:
No, because that would be a said, well, I have to put it right in the middle. Usually a chimney is off the side so that would mess up place metric get all right. Um, All right. So let’s go to the non designer josh. I mean, you’re not, you’re the, you’re the chief of this, uh, uh, design company, but you’re not necessarily a designer. You you feel confident to that we can do this.

[00:32:27.94] spk_3:
I do. I’m the ultimate non designer because I started the design agency and I have no design expertise or experience or clout of any sort or kind. Um, mike is nodding and it’s very true. And this session is for people who work at nonprofits who did not intend in starting about non profit to do design work. Maybe they’re Occam’s associate or they work in the marketing department. And suddenly one day someone says, hey designed this flyer design the social media graphic and they’re like, I don’t really know where to start, but our our session is about how those people actually can be designers and they can learn some pretty straightforward basic fundamentals to improve their design and to improve it. Starting today after they listen to this session.

[00:33:08.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. We’re gonna take a day to give some thought to the session to the podcast and then uh, start, start the day after, start the day after you listen. And of course, you know its design tips for the non designer. It’s not great design for the non designer. So, you know, this is not like those ads, those early Photoshop adds years ago, I’m dating myself but you know, take a Photoshop course and you’ll be a great designer. We’re not we’re not advocating that Photoshop even still exist. Mike, is

[00:33:12.22] spk_0:
this still a thing? Okay.

[00:33:16.74] spk_1:
All right. So, um let’s start with some fundamentals. I feel like we should start with the art director. What are some design fundamentals

[00:33:52.14] spk_0:
of course? Um first one, I talk a lot about graphic design in general. It’s all about visual communication, Right? So that’s the whole point. So you want to create strong uh design which equals strong communication, getting your message and ideas across effectively and clearly. And you need a few things to make that happen. And a few of the things that we talked about our session were four design fundamentals. Those are color typography, white space and hierarchy. So those are four of the building blocks. You know, there are more, we thought we’d start with those and I can talk a little bit about them if you want me to or

[00:33:59.64] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s a little it’s a little about each one. Yeah, just like we’re gonna

[00:35:14.54] spk_0:
build on these. Yeah, exactly. We’re building the building blocks. So color used to draw attention, communicate emotions, ideas, meetings without any text at all. So colour is a really powerful tool. Um typography, it’s just the style or appearance of text. You use typography to establish strong visual order. Also known as hierarchy. Readability. Accessibility. Especially for the visually impaired, you want to have strong typography and it balances out the overall tone of the design. Then there is white space which doesn’t mean white space, it means negative space. Right? So the space between the elements, you actually want to use white space as a design element. It helps with readability, prioritising content. Um kind of leading your eye from A to B. And then hierarchy is actually a visual technique where you’re putting all those three fundamentals together to create visual order. So it helps the user go from A. To B to Z. And it navigates you through everything. So hierarchy is kind of like um once you get all these three fundamental together you put those pieces together and then you get hierarchy. So those are the four fundamentals.

[00:35:34.54] spk_1:
I feel like I get I get I I see bad hierarchy uh like all the times you see a piece you don’t know where to read how to read it or you know or how to say the word that they made up or something? You know, there’s not enough visual clues to guide me through this new word or the peace generally like do I read up here or is this more important on the side or you know?

[00:35:39.74] spk_0:
Okay. Exactly. And that’s actually called cognitive overload, where your eyes don’t know where to

[00:35:44.92] spk_1:
look. It takes

[00:35:45.87] spk_0:
so much in, you know you only have so many seconds to retain it and then poof, it’s gone. So then you lose it, you know? So that’s the answer. So

[00:35:58.54] spk_1:
uh so now josh, how do we apply these fundamentals to our blank screen that were expected to come up with? Should we, should we design a sample piece? Should we be working with a, should we talk about a hypothetical piece or should we not do that? How do we, how do we apply? What what might just explain?

[00:36:12.63] spk_3:
Mm That’s good. That’s the ultimate question. I think it kind of depends what level of a designer you are. If you’re someone who’s already done some design work for your non profit, you’ve made a flyer, made a postcard, made a social media graphic. You can kind of look back at the design work you’ve already done through the new lens of colors. You know, Am I using too many colours typography? Is there a nice contrast here between the Fonz? I’m using um white space. Is this work? I’m doing too crowded. Is there no room to breathe and that all ladders up the hierarchy? Like mike was saying. So I think if you’ve done some work, it’s kind of time to do a little audit and look back at what you’ve done. I’m sure you’ve gotten better over the years, but there’s still probably room for improvement to communicate your message even more clearly.

[00:37:18.73] spk_1:
Let’s talk about some of the colors. What what some of the colors mean to me, red is anger or you know, but I’m the symmetric guy, so don’t pay no attention to what I say. I’m just, I’m just a lackluster host here. Um, say say either one of you, uh say something about some some basic colors and what they evoke.

[00:38:16.42] spk_0:
Sure, absolutely. I mean colors it’s tricky, right, because colors red represents danger. Stop. You know, it’s a cultural thing. So it’s, it gets tricky there. What we’re trying to focus on more is um, sometimes designers use formulas, so they use complementary colors which colors are opposite of each other on the color wheel or analogous colors, which colors are that are paired next to each other on the color wheel. Uh one of the really nice tips we like to say is use monochromatic colors. So what does that mean? That just means using one color, but changing the value or saturation, so light to dark or the intensity of that color. And before you know it, you can use one color and spread that into four or five different colours. Uh, so if you’re looking at, you have your own brand guidelines, let’s say you only have a certain amount of colors or you can really get a lot of mileage out of using one color. So those are a couple of things we’d like to use. But yeah, color can definitely use to draw the attention to bullseye into an area to lead each other areas. But we like to start with the basics. So yeah, those those formulas really help people.

[00:38:28.42] spk_1:
Let’s start with some or talk about some of those brand guidelines as you just mentioned it. And that was, that was part of your, your session. What are these?

[00:38:37.92] spk_3:
I can take that one.

[00:38:40.92] spk_1:
it’s your non, you know, non designer. So you need to jump in whenever you can talk about something.

[00:38:45.01] spk_3:
I know a bit over here. Probably

[00:38:57.22] spk_1:
resented by everybody at the agency. Right? You have no guy even Why is this guy leading us? All right. I’m trying to cause dissension and great believer. All right Brain guidelines please.

[00:40:30.11] spk_3:
So every organization needs to have brand guidelines. The brand guidelines need to explain what’s your logo and what are different lockups of that logo? Is there a horizontal version? Is there a vertical version? It needs to describe your fonts, You know, what are the funds in your logo? What are your headline fonts? What your body copy fonts? And what colors do you have in your palate? What’s your primary color palette? Is their secondary color palette? Brand guidelines should also show dues and don’t for your logo. So for example, don’t change the font and the logo. Don’t stretch it. Don’t put it behind a different colored background. Don’t change the colors, things like that. So even if a non profit does not have brand guidelines, they should make them. We actually did a poll during our session, we asked all the attendees if your organization has brand guidelines and about, Let’s see about 85, said they do have brand guidelines, which is great. Um, and if they don’t, we said you should just go make some and you can make them literally in a Microsoft-word document where you just type out here are colors. Here are fonts, here’s how our logo works and then build on it over the years and make it a more expansive document. But it’s really important to have to make sure there’s consistent communication. So if the non designer at a nonprofit starts to utilize, let’s say another colour like Mike was saying, maybe you’re gonna explore a monochromatic color, a different hue of color in your main palette that should then go into your brand guidelines. So other people that pick up on your work, let’s say an external design agency uses those same colors and things feel cohesive. So we’re big believers in brand guidelines for consistency but also knowing that they can evolve over time as your brand

[00:41:11.01] spk_0:
evolves. Likewise. Yeah. And I’ll also like to say that brand guidelines, you know, they’re, you’re mentioning, how do you start, you know, how do you start designing something blank piece of paper? What can you do? Well, you really should look at your brand guidelines in there. There should be also samples of, you know what a poster’s should look like, what should a page and website look like. So these are all guys to help any designer pick that brand guy lines up and start to use it because it’s all about building and strengthening your brand recognition. And the first step is building that brand guideline and then following all of those elements and using them consistent.

[00:42:23.10] spk_1:
It’s time for a break, send in blue. It’s the all in one digital marketing platform that has tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional that you can afford and that keep you organized. It’s all about digital campaign marketing, most marketing software enterprise level made for big companies with the big company. Price tag, sending Blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out sending blue and get the free month. Go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for design for non designers. You have some software resources that are simple enough that people can use them but fancy enough that they can do the do the do at least some basic, some basic design like color topography, et cetera. Where should we, what can we start with? What is what’s the first resource that you like mike.

[00:42:38.40] spk_0:
Oh for me, my bread and butter was would always be creative cloud, which is Photoshop still a thing illustrator in design. Um, but also utilizing newer apps like sketch or sigma, which is more about web design. Digital focus materials josh can talk to more about that

[00:42:53.60] spk_1:
spell sigma pleases ph

[00:42:55.54] spk_0:
f uh f I G F

[00:42:57.66] spk_1:
a thick. Okay,

[00:42:59.15] spk_0:
big and a fig

[00:43:00.13] spk_1:
leaf. Okay. Uh,

[00:44:33.59] spk_3:
and I can, I can pick up on that because the tools that mike mentioned are for people who are designer designers and who are more advanced, they can use the creative cloud programs to design things from scratch. They can use figure sketch to design websites from scratch a tool that we love. And we actually use ourselves and also encourage our nonprofit friends to use those non designers is Canada and Canada is probably a very popular program at lots of non profits because first of all it’s free for most nonprofits to use. But it’s also very user friendly in terms of developing templates. So developing a template for a postcard or a flyer or business cards, something like that. It has a really nice web based kind of drag and drop interface that still lets you make things that are customized and fun and branded. So we think Canada is a really nice starting point because you can really do anything in there are session. We actually asked all the attendees, you know, what kind of design work do you find yourself doing most often? And social media was number one, but people said they do web, they do email, they do print. Um there’s so much you can do within Canada to create something that’s beautiful and still fits within your brand guidelines and your brand architecture. So we were big fans of Canada and something else. Speaking of email, male chimp, constant contact platforms like that, make it pretty easy to develop a blast templates that you can apply your colors to apply. Not maybe not your direct funds, but a font that resembles your font to make things still feel nice and feel cohesive and feel engaging. So we like those tools specifically for email blasts, but recommend can refer a lot of other design endeavors.

[00:44:54.59] spk_1:
Cool. Okay, even I’ve heard of Canada, I think it’s I think that’s pretty, pretty widely known, but I’m glad, you know, a little more detail. Um and you mentioned. So like Canada you can do the postcard template. So those those templates that you do could be part of your brand guidelines. Here’s our here’s our template for an announcing event. Here’s our template for whatever campaign postcard, etcetera. Okay,

[00:45:17.09] spk_3:
Yeah. And camp gives you these kind of starter templates. So it can say, you know, postcard four by six inches. So it gives you the the real estate to work with and then you can actually design the peace within it. So you’re not kind of crawling in the dark. It gives you a nice starting point. Okay.

[00:45:18.49] spk_1:
All right. I’m glad to see, I’m trainable. I’m glad to know that. I’m glad to learn that there’s there’s hope beyond symmetry. All right. Um, but we still got a good amount of time together mike. What what else? Any other, any other resources?

[00:46:03.28] spk_0:
George resources for color. Uh Good one is coolers dot C O C O L O R S dot C. O. What they do is you can start to pick and choose and make your own palette and create different color combinations. What you can also do is lock in certain colors. So let’s say in your brad guidelines, you have a blue or red and a green. You can punch those colors in, lock it and then just start to play and create different palettes around it. So I think that’s a really good resource to use for

[00:46:05.49] spk_1:
colours, coolers,

[00:46:07.03] spk_0:
spellers. Sorry?

[00:46:28.88] spk_1:
Yes, coolers. You said it coolers dot C. O. Right. Yeah, that’s yeah. Okay. Okay. Um um, say a little more about the sweet that you both mentioned. The that includes, um, Photoshop. Uh, what was the suite of, It sounds like a suite of three in design, Photoshop and illustrator, illustrator, illustrator. Yeah. What is that expensive for? For folks?

[00:47:09.28] spk_0:
It can be it’s a subscription based type deal. Now, before you could just buy it outright and then I get free updates, but now it’s a subscription based, so yeah, you’d have to pay monthly for it. Uh To me it’s it’s worth it because that’s what I use every day. Uh interesting what josh says if it’s feasible to have a whole team to use it um because I need to get multiple accounts for it. But yeah, illustrators mostly used for icon vector work, it’s actually drawing things out and making vectors out of it so you can scale it. Photoshop is used to retouch photos um and in design is mainly for printed pieces like brochures, laying those out books, magazines, china reports.

[00:47:16.78] spk_3:
Yeah, I’ll just say, you know, cost around 100 a little under $100 per license. So per per person to access these programs as well as others, a little under $100. And one thing might mention

[00:47:30.34] spk_1:
Like $100 per month per person.

[00:47:32.47] spk_3:
Exactly, roughly. Okay. Yeah. And this is still for like the kind of design or design or someone who’s a little more adept and skilled and has more experience in the design space to use programs like these that can really unleash their skills. And one thing mike said that I think worth mentioning, especially since tony you mention Photoshop before is a lot of non profits tend to use Photoshop for creating templates for let’s say for a postcard for a social media post. And we actually don’t recommend that Photoshop is really a photo editing tool and if you’re going to make simple templates, we definitely recommend Canada it’s a lighter weight, easier to use. Program Photoshop, it gets a little complicated files get big and like maybe you could talk a little more about Photoshop is not the right fit for that. We try to restrict Photoshop to photo editing, which is really

[00:48:31.97] spk_0:
its core purpose. You can get very in depth with Photoshop, but it’s not really needed. If all you’re making is a template for something. It’s a lot of times. Professional people retouch photos, video, all of those things. So yeah, completely not needed. Okay, canvas, canvas, canvas.

[00:48:58.87] spk_1:
Alright. Um All right. We still got some time, uh, techniques. You know, how to how to visualize, you know, like what goes on in this designer brain of yours. Like what what are you thinking about while you’re creating something? What does give you a little peek? That’s like that’s why I always sucked at math and science. I never knew what was going on in their mind. Like you show me how to do it. But what are you thinking about? How do you conceive

[00:49:57.57] spk_0:
of it? Yeah, it’s I’ll give you another peak. Um It’s it’s it’s keeping these fundamentals in check. But then also looking at the world around you, looking at type around you, looking at colors around you, look at how other people are doing it. You know, create mood boards for yourself? Look at other anything that gives you visual stimulation. Go for it. And it’ll kind of help the board. What’s the mood board. So, mood board is something that helps get all of your thoughts Home together distilled onto one board. So that’s photography style color type. You know, you start to combine certain things that you find work well together and then when you then you can step back and you see it as a whole, we call that a mood board. So that helps you visualize um creating systems or identities for for branding and design in general. So it’s kind of like one of the first steps you do in your inspiration process. Okay. But yeah, some of some

[00:49:59.78] spk_1:
other quick tips. Yeah,

[00:50:54.36] spk_0:
yeah, sure. We talked about color, but maybe we can talk a little about type type and white space. Um I think for everything we’re gonna talk about, you really want to keep things simple even for, you know, designers, we’ve been designing for years, keeping it simple is always the best way to go. So in terms of typography, maybe just pick one typeface and use contrast. So different weights, different sizes, but just keep that one, you know, font and you just kind of use that throughout your piece, you know, white space? Just making sure we call a reductive design after you design something, start taking things away, just take things away and see how that looks. Does it feel cleaner. Does it feel more legible or did you lose something, you know, did you lose some of that? Um and for hierarchy, you know, we use all these different devices in terms, But one thing we always try to keep in mind is, you know, the point is to have the user be able to navigate from wherever you want from the start to finish. So you want to really create strong visual hierarchy. So using type, using colors, Using that white space to your advantage, not giving too much clutter, not using too many colours, not using too much type, not using too many shapes. So just keep it really simple. I think that’s that’s really the best tip we can give.

[00:51:22.76] spk_1:
Do people read bold, heavier, bigger fonts first and then smaller funds after. Right? All right, so that’s that’s again, I’m just learning, I’m trainable. So that’s a visual cue, you can absolutely look to your first, then look here that we want you to read this other thing

[00:51:51.16] spk_0:
that’s the smallest. Yeah. Use it to your advantage. Use uh boldness, the size, hit it with a color, get people drawn into that and then pair it with something that’s calmer. Media sans serif. Uh, font sensors, meaning, you know, these two types serif and sans serif. One has a little extra additions to the ends of the letters. Sensory

[00:51:57.96] spk_1:
culebra is a sans serif and times new

[00:52:11.45] spk_0:
times roman is a is a serif. Yeah. You know, so, you know, just using using those things to your advantage. Yeah. Doesn’t matter. Go big. Um go big, go bold draw you in. Um, and then, you know, use type and then use all these other elements to avenge.

[00:52:48.75] spk_3:
Yeah. Just to add on to what mike was saying. I think the most important thing or a really important takeaway is to definitely use restraint when it comes to the number of colors you use the number of funds you use it. So often the case that we’re working on a project where are non profit partner will say we need to do this much in this small space and we say we can’t so we need to start to figure out what can be removed and still get your message across or do we need this to be a two page piece instead of a one page piece. So I think the big take away should be that sometimes you need either more space to get across your message or you need to take pieces out to do so in a way that sticks and gets people to take action.

[00:53:16.45] spk_1:
Okay. And Mike mentioned reductive design white space. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s soothing. It’s calming. You know, what about, you know, I assume this is valid practices to share the peace with other people? Absolutely. Are they reading it right? Does it upset

[00:53:19.71] spk_0:
them, et cetera, yep. What was it was like a B testing where you give two designs to samples? The same user base and then they, you know, then we can see which ones they gravitate more towards which one is more effective.

[00:53:50.85] spk_1:
A B of course, for for a broader audience. I was thinking just within your team. No, that’s absolutely what does this look like? You know, talk me through your as you’re looking at it. What are you thinking, things like that? All right. Um, All right. So there’s, there’s hope, there’s hope for the non designer. You’re not gonna get a fine arts course, you’re not gonna get a fine arts degree in in 25 minutes. Not profit radio but there’s there’s, there’s basic, there’s basics. Alright, Alright, we’re gonna leave it there sound all right,

[00:54:03.34] spk_3:
Sounds good.

[00:54:12.54] spk_1:
Okay there, josh, Lyman founder and president at Great Believer and Mike Yamagata, art Director at Great Believer. Thank you very much. Thanks guys.

[00:54:14.11] spk_3:
Thanks tony

[00:55:07.24] spk_1:
each of you and thanks to you listener for being with non profit radio coverage of 21 Ntc where were sponsored by we should be sponsored by Great believer with all the shout out. I’m giving you a great believer, uh, their design expertise, you know, But no, we are, we’re grateful to be sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o next week. It’s an archive show. I will pick a winner. Trust me if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O and by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue,

[00:55:23.44] spk_5:
our creative producer is clear. Amirov shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out

[00:55:42.34] spk_0:
and be great. Yeah.

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of arjun. Oh sucks in ic acid urea if you wet me down with the idea that you missed today’s show disaster relief, we kick off with jean takagi explaining how but first weather you’re non-profit can help disaster victims we need you need a lot more than a big heart and a crowd. Rise page genes are legal contributor and the principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group and your event pipeline get committed major donors from your events by making them transformational, not merely transactional pat clemency has before, during and after event ideas she’s, president and ceo of make a wish metro new york and western new york you’ll get lessons from rochester and buffalo that originally aired on october twenty fourth. Twenty fourteen on tony’s take two i learned something from my mom’s death we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dot m a slash pursuant also by wagner, sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers, wagner, sepa is dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit apolo see accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit and debit card processors you’re passive revenue stream tony dot slash tony, tell us a genuine pleasure to welcome back jean takagi every time he’s on it’s a genuine pleasure. A real pleasure. He’s, the managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, california he edits the wildly popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s the american bar association’s twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer he’s at g tak welcome back, jean takagi. Thanks, tony and my mind. Sincere condolences on your loss. Thank you. Thank you very much, jean. Thank you for that. Um, how you doing out there? What? What? So what? We’re in transition transition season whether what’s the weather been oh, actually, the weather’s been all smoky for you hasn’t it been? It has been and going right in line with today’s. Northern california fires weight got a little bit of rain yesterday really light, but it it helped, but we’ve seen you know more than two hundred forty thousand acres. Burns forty two death more than a billion dollars worth of insured losses so it’s really hit it pretty hard up here, and you’re getting impact hours away from from the sort of the where the most devastating fires are. Smoke and ash et cetera, right? Yeah, well, we’re not getting ashot here, although the particulates in the air have been a dangerous levels. So we’re encouraged teo, stay indoors for many of those days, but at least not visible. Ash in san francisco. No smoke, though. Yeah, that’s definitely feel the smoke and those with sensitive breathing issues. I’ve got to really be careful. So as you said, of course, right in line with our discussion, besides the devastation in the california fires, of course, houston, um, florida on dh not only natural disasters, of course. Las vegas shooting there’s ah, there’s. A lot of potential for non-profits teo do good work if they’re suited for it. Yeah, i mean that’s, that’s very true. And we’ve had a very tough year in terms of natural and man made. Don’t forget puerto rico. Yes, thank you very much. I i don’t want to make the mistake of puerto rico is part of our united states? Yes. Thank you for that. Thank you very much, jane. Yeah, and, you know, people want to do good things. And, you know, as he said, a lot of people want to give with their heart on dh people run charities, and those people also want to do something. So the question, you know, is like, well, what can we do and what’s the first question that we should be asking if we are in a non-profit were ceo are chief fund-raising perhaps or a boardmember well meaning boardmember what’s the first analysis we should weigh should we need to look to well, i think the first thing you have to do is you have to look at your mission because, you know, your mission dictates what you’re allowed to do. So if you have a purpose of raising funds to help homeless people in new york, all your donors have entrusted you with their money for that specific purpose. So even though the board and the employees might say, oh, my gosh, we’ve got to get relief out to puerto rico let’s, take the money that we raised in the past that we have. In reserve and dedicated towards puerto rico. While that might be a really admirable and understandable a desire, you’ve got to remember that you owe you own obligation to your donors who had given for homeless people in new york in that case. So checking out what your mission says, and he got a look at your articles of incorporation, our certificate of incorporation and by-laws how you’ve been marketing to your donors to figure that out? What kind of trouble might you get in with, say, the new york attorney general, if you’re a charity that ah, it does have the mission you described and nonetheless sends some relief money, teo puerto rico, or anywhere outside new york, right? I think you know, i think most regulators they’re going to be a little bit easy if you’re raising new money. Tio go outside of your mission that’s not what you’re supposed to do if it’s outside your mission, but i don’t think they’re going to come down hard on you for that, i think where they may come down hard is where one of your donors complain that their money was used for something that wasn’t intended, because that was not within your mission. So if they use existing money and it’s that that hurts what the organization is able to do in terms of furthering its current mission, that becomes the problem i see on dh. Yeah, it only takes one one upset donorsearch tio to write a letter or start an inquiry and you could end up in some trouble. Yeah, or drag it through the media, and then you get a bunch of upset donors, you know, you know, the mission was really something that they were connected with, which, you know, led them to make the donation in the first place. Um, if you let’s say your mission is brought enough that enables you to to send relief of some type teo outside your state way. Have i heard rumors about these things, like charity registration laws and such on other other operating rules that require you to be registered before you start working in another state? Yeah. I mean, that part of your area of expertise, teo. Healthy? Yeah. You’ve got to be careful if you can actually do programmatic work or have boots on the ground in the foreign state you may need to be qualified to operate there, so there may be some additional filings that you need to do again. If you’re you got a limited presence, nobody gets hurt. Nobody complains regulators within that foreign state are probably going to be happy to have your help in the event of a disaster, and probably the risk is going to be low. But what if somebody gets hurt? Yeah, that’s, that’s where you could get in big trouble and when you’re raising funds from a new area, so if you if you got boots on the ground in texas but you’re in new york or california charity and you’re not registered in texas, what if somebody starts to complain about why isn’t my money helping those? You know that i intended to give two? What are you doing with my money? And they start to complain to the attorney general in texas, that might be an issue if you don’t have a good explanation for why you haven’t registered in, perhaps it’ll be a slap on the wrist, and they’ll just tell you, teo, teo, register now and maybe give you a small penalty but if somebody complains loud enough and you you really haven’t been responsible with that money that that could get you into some big trouble. Understand? On dh, why and why take the chance you it’s just it’s. Just not the way to operate. It’s, time for a short break. Jean, please indulge me. We have a slightly different format. Now. Pursuant they’ll help you find your existing donors who are hiding in your file. The ones who are prime for upgrade how do you identify them? And deep in your relationships, they’re free. Webinar is find hidden gems lurking in your file aptly named it’s past eleven, or is over. So why am i talking about? Because it doesn’t matter if it’s over you watch the archive just like non-profit radio it’s the same thing, so it doesn’t matter that it’s past. You will find the archive at the non-profit radio listener landing page tony dot m a slash pursuing also they have a new content paper for you and that is twenty seventeen digital year end fund-raising field guide, which are the channels and advertising strategies that give you the highest return on investment. How can you tweak your year end campaign based on your donor expectations and what are the insider tips on digital fund-raising from some of the biggest non-profits i think you’ve heard me say big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Here you go. The weapons are in the paper or on the non-profit radio listener landing page. Tony dot, m a slash pursuing capital p now i want to get back to jean talking disaster relief. Thank you for that indulgence. Gene. Um, let’s, let’s continue. So i was just saying that you know, it’s, why? Why put yourself at risk? It’s just it’s not what you’re bored should be advocating it’s, not what you should be pursuing if if if you don’t belong there because there are alternatives, i think that’s absolutely treat, ernie, i think you know, not just in terms of the filing, but in terms of whether you have the infrastructure to actually do work over there and whether people donating to you in a foreign state is the best use of charitable money to get relief down into that state is another question you have to think about. So would it be better in certain cases for you say, hey support one of our, you know, charities that we’re friendly, whether we have a relationship with in texas, for example, for hurricane harvey relief, why don’t you give to the community foundation of houston? They’re they’re a great organization. They know you know what they’re doing, and if you have a pre existing relationship with that organization or you vetted them in the past, maybe it’s better to have your donors give directly to them rather than to you and for you to figure out howto fund-raising in texas? Yeah, andi let’s think through what you’re committing, teo again, the motivation is purely altruistic, but what you’re getting yourself into in terms of logistics, you know, if if you’re not on a lot of a lot of drives, i see are not for cash, but therefore things that people need clothing specifically and or maybe housewares and things. Now you’ve got this truckload of stuff, not near where the disaster is, you know, it’s not so easy to get truckloads into a disaster zone. I mean, think about you have to think about what you’re committing yourself to absolutely, and it may cost more to transport those non-cash in that foreign site, then it then the materials are worth, in which case the health is almost useless. You do have to be careful. I don’t want to completely discourage e-giving good like food and clothing. Sometimes that can be helpful. But if that’s really true, when you’re local to the disaster, you’re far away. Cash is so much better. Yeah, because of that logistic concern and all right, so you mentioned, you know, potentially partnering with a charity that that you’re familiar with and directing donations there. What about what about you, fund-raising would you be allowed to fundraise and then give all the cash? Let’s assume it is cash now because you’re distant to the to the charity? If if that’s not within your mission. No, i guess not. Then, right? Yeah. It’s. Not within your mission’s. Kind of the same thing again. The risk is probably low if it’s new money. So you know, if you have a broad enough mission or if you could see that there’s no geographic limitation in your mission. For example, if you’re like a humane society or s p c a. But you don’t say exactly that. We only help people who are for you. Know animal welfare in new york, perhaps then you can you can start a campaign to provide for support of for animal welfare in these disaster stricken regions. Um, and and you can do it through through grants a cz well, tony, so you can raise money from your own donors who are interested. As long as you’re very clear about why you’re raising that money and that it’s going to go to the to the disaster stricken area rather than been locally, you’re clear about that. Then you might find that that partner, charity or potential grantee with which to give that money to rather than try to start a new program, a relief program, it somewhere where you have nobody there. Okay, okay, um and there is ah, resource i’m aware of if you don’t have some kind of partner, really pre existing partner relationship. Charity navigator is very good about being proactive in the face of disasters. I get their emails and they’ll put up a page with charities that they have vetted and redid highly. That there is that our local to the disaster area. So that’s a that’s a method i mean it’s designed for individuals, but certainly a charity that wants to do this work and find a partner, and they don’t have one you could use the charity navigator resource is yeah, i mean, they’re they’re different ways to vet potential grantee charities and the more money you’re going to send, of course, the more vetting that you would be expected to do charity navigator can be a helpful resource is resource for charity’s looking for, for donating, for maximizing their effectiveness and efficiency, and hopefully avoiding any scam charity second about the sad thing is, whenever disaster hits, you get a number of scams that are out there that proclaim themselves to be true charities, and perhaps they even have five, twenty three status, but they may not really be doing the work that they’re doing. So you do really want to be careful, especially as a charity, you know, who should be the great example to its donors that you know howto that e-giving and ensuring that charitable funds are properly spend it. If you’re the bad example than have what donors trust, you know you you want to bet them very carefully. So do you think charity navigator is not? Sufficient for a charity vetting another charity correcting it depends upon, you know, upon all of the circumstances. So if if you’ve got a huge grant to make, then probably want to do a little bit more work than that. But if you’re you know, you’re going to give ten thousand dollars to hurt, you know, for hurricane released in charity navigator recommends community foundation there. I think you’re pretty safe. Okay, okay. Um, and you need to be careful in your in your materials if you are goingto be encouraging these gifts that you are targeting a charitable purpose. Ah, charitable class of people and not a subset or some certainly like a family or something. Yeah, and that gets really tricky because, you know, individually, you know, we may go. Oh, my gosh, i know somebody in puerto rico, and they could really use the help so i’d leave my charity to direct money towards maybe another charity in puerto rico. But maybe i’d actually like to direct my money straight to this family because they just got this really compelling case. Oh, and i put up an ad on my website looking for my donors in california. Uh, to give money to help this one family in puerto rico? Well, if the donors are making the gift and just using the charity as a conduit to get it to individuals specific individuals that are named, then that gift is not tax deductible. It’s not considered a charitable contribution, it’s as if they gave directly to the individuals that they’re trying to get their money. Teo and if the charity, all they do is act as a conduit and that’s that’s going to be problematic, and if the charity then give the donation receipt to the donor thing that your your your money is tax deduct deductible, despite you directing it towards individuals now i can get the charity in trouble so different ways to do that, but a lot a lot of people are getting that wrong where a lot of charities, they’re getting that wrong and have to be here. Yeah, right, so we’re talking about charities. I mean, if you as an individual have family in florida or puerto rico and you want to do something as an individual, then you know we’re not we’re not that’s, not what we’re talking about because you’re not. Claiming that the gift to you will be examined our deductible from federal income tax, right? So by all means you should you should support your family, members of your friends that are there that are hit by disaster and don’t want to discourage that at all, but if you’re trying to give to a charity and get a deduction for it, then then you’ve got to think about making sure that you’re not using the charity just to the condom. And charity has to make sure that it doesn’t allow itself to be used just to the conduit, although i should add that the charity might add examples of individuals that helped. I say we help all of you know, we’re helping all of these families, including be specific ones, make your donation and trust us to put it to bed. Yeah, well, that’s, you know, of course that’s just that’s very good storytelling and good marketing is toe personalize your your broader work t the individual level, right? We’re not talking about that. We’re not talking about your your what? Your marketing, but what you’re claiming we’re their money goes, is not to that family that you just highlighted in a you know, a very touching video. That’s that’s what? That’s. What we need to avoid, right? Okay, so since we’re talking about individuals, what about individuals raising money for a charity? Weii, we see some of that. We see a good amount of that. How does that work? Yeah. So that’s that’s always tricky. So a lot of charities don’t like it when individuals are starting to raise money for them because the individuals may say different things about the charities, some of which may not be true. Um, and the individuals maybe raising money that go to themselves first. And perhaps they’re going to give some or all of it to the charity. Charity has no control of that if the money is going to the individual’s first, uh, also, the donors who gave to that individual won’t get a charitable deduction for giving to just another person and not giving directly to the charity. So it becomes if it’s done informally like that. Like you just all give money to this one person and this person, then you know, who’s promising to give it to charity actually does give it to charity. Well, that person gets a deduction, but all the other people that donate it to that one individual don’t get it right. And that person gets a deduction for all the money that was given to him or her because those were a gift, right? Because those were gifts to an individual and that lets you use may. So i collected ten thousand dollars in gift those were those were just personal gift from person to person on dh if they go over the gift threshold and they may have to pay, then people have to pay a tax, but we’re not going that high, so let’s, say, an aggregate from, you know, fifty friends. I collect ten thousand dollars, i think. Give that to a charity, aiken aiken claim a ten thousand dollar charitable income tax deduction, assuming i meet other limitations and, you know, exempt things like that, but generally, i could claim that deduction for the whole amount. Yeah, you might be able to the charity may not know that you’ve collected it from other individuals. They just hey, we got a ten thousand dollar gift receipt for ten thousand dollars. Thank you very much. Um, on the other hand, you know, the friends that gave the money to you if they hear about this, and especially if he didn’t give all ten thousand dollars right charity? But you said well, and i had three thousand dollars worth of travel costs in my time we had overhead, right? Right, yet that’s going to upset a lot of people that’s the wrong way to do it, but there is a right way to do it. So so if the charity authorizes an individual and you know, the charities will naturally authorize own employees to fundraise on behalf of the that the the organization through, you know, the organizational means, like the website and fund-raising events and all of that, if their sanctions but, you know, they could make unauthorized volunteers to fund-raising a swell and boardmember zehr often fund-raising on behalf of their charities, you know, as individuals who are authorized to do so? Sure, but they’re not collecting the money directly themselves or if they’re taking a check, they’re immediately giving it over to the charity, and the check is going to list the charity’s name on it? Yes, right? Okay, okay. Let’s. See where? What about what about helping businesses can can a charity fund-raising help businesses that air devastated by a disaster? Yeah, it’s a good question, because some people go, can i make a grant to a for profit organization that kind of kind of strange but charity’s can engage in grantmaking or, you know, providing assistance to businesses in different situations, and this plays out a lot in disasters in the event of a disaster. So if the business owners are it’s a small business, a mom and pop store in the mom pop are are needy and distress as a result of the disaster. After that, business might be their lifeline, and providing assistance to the business in that case might be fine. It also might be finding a broader sense if the community was deteriorated as a result of a disaster. So investing in economic development and combating community deterioration and blight, that’s all charitable purpose. So as long as again it’s within your mission to be able to give such support, you could do that also lessening the burdens of governments of the government says this is something that you know is public works we need toe, give back and develop our small business community here. That got terribly hit by the disaster. If the government is doing it, probably used tenants. Okay. Would that include infrastructure repair, too? Yeah, it would. Okay, so all sorts of things that you could do, you can you can help building costs, rebuilding cost. The one thing is, you know when to stop when that bible that’s probably the time with charitable. Okay, right. We don’t need to be buying partnership shares in the private in the privately held company. Okay, we’re buying in. We’re going to go. We’re going to become general managers of the llc. Alright. That’s beyond the pale. Okay, hyre now, there was something pretty high profile talk about individuals. I know you. I think you know, i don’t know much about sports but this there’s a guy named j j watts and he plays one of the sports balls. Hey, does something in in sports hey raised thirty seven million dollars for orm. Or maybe you think it’s still being counted for harvey relief in houston through his foundation. But there’s a lesson there that you want to talk about? Yes. What is? Football player with a very, very popular what? I called him what’s i’m sorry. Does your watts restaurant? I don’t even know whatever he plays baseball with j j watt. Pardon me, mister. What? Okay. Pit so and very compelling figure. And he made an appeal after hurricane harvey to collect money raised money for relief in houston. And, you know, at first, you know, his ambitions were very small. I think it was even less than a million dollars that he was hoping to collect to give back, and he has a foundation. So a fiver onesie three foundation that he runs, and they i think they’re really focused in on sports programs for children. But he heard about that, you know? Well, didn’t hear hear, just hear about it, but he, you know, he was in houston, so he was just well aware of the hurricane in the immense damage that it has done, so he wanted to make a difference. So he went on to a crowd funding site called you caring. Uh, and he wanted to raise money. So my wilson here is he did, you know, top thirty seven million dollars, and i think he stopped the campaign right now, but this is a foundation that was very small, it and i applied his efforts and believe me, you know, he probably raised by that otherwise might not have been raised. So for that that’s fantastic. On the other hand, i don’t know that his foundation really had the infrastructure and was prepared to do relief work in all of the sudden they have thirty seven million dollars, they don’t know how much staff they had don’t know how much expertise they had in this area. So there you know, there’s, some criticism, and i think disaster relief. Oh, and charities are likely to face criticism right away because getting aid to the individuals is very difficult to do and having a plan to do it. It is tough, it’s hard just to give to anybody who puts their hand out and although you want to that’s not the responsible way to do it, so they’ve got to come up with a plan if they’ve never done it before it’s going to take more time for the plan. So i think the lesson there is just in terms of figuring out again, as we said. Before, if you’re a foreign charity coming in, if this isn’t the work that you do you want to think about, you know what the best way to make use of that money is? Perhaps, if you, you know, i had been the figurehead for a campaign by the community foundation, or he decided to give, you know, the money he raised to the community foundation that’s actively involved with multiple non-profits on the ground, working with smaller communities in that area that could get the money to the people who needed it the most, or or you know, the the need to address the needs right away might have been more efficient. So i think that’s the one without wanting teo, criticize the foundation itself, and j j watt, you know, participation in doing tremendous work, it would be great to see the money just really effectively and efficiently used and not for building brand new infrastructures in a brand new area of charity that an organization has never done before. And i want to credit eugene with something that you alerted me to in las vegas. The clark county commission chair was raising money, and he was not. Clear where the money was going until you jean takagi i asked about it and then and then he became transparent, so unfortunately have to leave it there. But credit, credit hat’s off to you, jean, for in increasing transparency and fund-raising we’ve talked about it so many, many times. Congratulations for that. Okay, what? I’m not sure packing climb full credit, but i’m glad that that they responded alright. Small victories jean takagi he’s, our legal contributor managing attorney of neo check him out at non-profit law blogged dot com and at g tak thank you for so much, gene. Thanks, tony. My best. Thank you, pat. Clemency and your event pipeline coming up first, wagner, cps there’s so much more than just cps way beyond lots of added value, they do go way beyond the numbers. They’re true to their tagline, major gift, best practices and common mistakes. It’s, one of their archived webinars, covers five best practices and five common stakes equally balanced. See how they do that it’s like a balance it’s like thea it’s, like the assets have to equal liability snusz owners equity it, see how balances five and five but then they add the single most important thing you can do to have a more successful major gift program, so if you’re thinking you’d like to beef up your major e-giving program or benchmark against others, get some outside perspective, perhaps on your fund-raising never hurts to have ah, fresh set of eyes and and ideas lofting over what you’re already doing. No need to sign up. No need to register it’s archived. Watch it right now, it’s the major gifts webinar and it is that wagner cps dot com click resource is than webinars to browse everything, everything else that they have ah quick resource is and then you see the full collection there blawg other webinars and those guides that you’ve heard me talk about world. The templates and sample policies are that’s all under guides, so check out wagner cps dot com resource is and then go to town apolo software you’re non-profit but what kind of accounting software using using software made for business and i never gave this a moments thought never inside my ken i liketo work that word, kenan whenever i can into ah, until conversations it was never within my cannon just like that word. Can um, but when apple is became a sponsor, it seems to make some sense you need accounting software that is made for non-profits that’s what you are and his age of niche software, and help us a knish knish and i’m not comfort with can i like a lot niche it’s a little affected? Try to stay away from that in this age of niche software, you deserve it. So whether using quickbooks or terrible cash or one of microsoft products or sapi whatever super duper whiz bang books, whatever you’re using, those are for business except the well. The super duper whiz bang books is not for business, but if it did, if there was such a thing as a super whiz bang books, super duper was bank books than merely about duper. Then that would be for business. But you’re non-profit so take a look at apple owes accounting it’s accounting software designed for non-profits and to find them you go to non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony’s take two i did a video on something that i learned so far from my mom’s death earlier this month. The importance of end of life planning my family is so good, and i am all of us or so grateful that she died quietly in a hospice very soothing pastoral place. I’ll shout it out, vilma re claire in saddle brook, new jersey, where they do comfort care and they understand managing management of pain. It’s on twenty five acres and there’s trees and the rooms are beautiful and not sterile like a hospital, which is not to put down hospitals but totally different missions on dh no alarms, chai ming and beeping and people scurrying in the hallway. Not like that at all. So ah, hospice hospice planning. I’m encouraging you to give thought to your own or your family members end of life planning it’s just it’s it’s got new importance for me, and i could see the value of it for my mom, for our family to mean hospices for the support of the family, just a cz much as the patient, so end of life planning. Take a look at the video it’s at tony martignetti dot com i’m sure there’s a lot more than i have to learn about my mom’s death that this is what i’ve got so far that was tony take two let’s, take a look at the live listener love where’s it going out is going out to ann arbor, michigan, woodbridge, new jersey and woodbridge. I gotta compliment you, woodbridge. You’ve been very loyal. Uras loyal is seoul, south korea, so woodbridge special listener love live listen, i’m about to you. Tampa, florida, staten island, new york, delmar, new york. Oakland, california. Los angeles, california, california. Of course our thoughts while los angeles in the south, but oakland near the devastation, as gene and i were talking about live love to all those locations and live listeners. Let’s, go abroad to germany, we can’t see your city, but gooden dog nonetheless federal, argentina, hanoi, vietnam vietnam has been occasional, but not too much glad you’re with us. Hanoi thank you, live love to you, seoul, south korea, on your haserot comes a ham nida and san pedro, san pedro, costa rica i might know some people in some pedro i know some people in costa rica. I wonder if that could be sheri and ah, shari and gary. Live love to san pedro, costa rica affiliate affections. I feel like going out of sequence. So what? You gonna beat me up for it so grateful. Lots of affections to our affiliate am and fm listeners. I’m so glad you’re with us and the podcast pleasantries to the over twelve thousand so glad that you are with us the bulk of our listening audience. Thank you, podcast listeners pleasantries to you. Here is pet clemency with your event pipeline welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of fund-raising day two thousand fourteen we are in times square, new york city at the marriott marquis hotel. With me now is pat clemency. Her seminar topic is the event pipeline turning event guests into major donors. Pat is president and ceo of make a wish metro new york and western new york kayman c welcome to the show. Thanks, tony. Pleasure to have you you have a pretty desperate territory new york city and western new york it’s an interesting territory, but i think it really is empowering in the sense you get a chance to say all sorts of markets in which you can raise money and it’s really the opportunity to understand how donors react in their markets. And and you know what? The universe was they? Won’t want to make a difference and how far west does western new york go in your we cover the major cities of buffalo and rochester seventeen counties it’s just go over to buffalo. It does. Okay, so we don’t have the middle of the state, but we have a new york city in nassau county and then seventeen states counties upstate. What do you see that non-profits are not quite getting right around events and transitioning donors from events. Well, i think, you know, we all start with special events. I mean, there’s, no question about it, i think it is the recognition that there is a discipline that can make those events were quarter and smarter and are part of a major gifts strategy if we see it as an event that we efficiently come into and go out of without seeing its capacity to build a pipeline of donors for other kinds of fund-raising particularly major gifts, i don’t think we make it a lot of candy, so today we really talk to have great dialogue around the issue about some of the things that we can do to make a special event three distinct parts it matters deeply what we do before going into the event, we’ll talk a lot about planet, but planning in a different way, that really makes us understand who is coming, who are the prospects the day of the event? How do we really connect the donor’s? Not just with the event, but with the mission and how they can make a specific difference and how we then engaged him in the journey, not with the event, but with the organization over time. It’s really the third ingredient in and so it really is very helpful to think about it as more than simply even itself. I’m gonna ask you to talk even closer to the mike because we have now we have the background noise because lunch lunch is over, so stay nice and close. We don’t pick up too much outside background noise. Well, let’s start with the natural place of planning. What? What should be redoing as we’re planning the event to be planning transitioning hyre attendees to teo to our donor ranked i think wolber too often we start berkeley just a rather than the strategy. What are we trying to do? And who are we trying? To attract and we also need to cast a wider net if you think of the donor pyramid. I mean, we’re looking at our past event guests and hoping people who will be new to the event will also come, but we’re not looking for the clues that people give us. And so we found there was great opportunity looking at direct male donors give one hundred dollars more, and when we did some wealth screening, we found out they gave us one hundred dollars, not because that was their capacity, but we had a box and they checked it and they gave us one hundred dollars, but we understood it. When we looked at it, they had so much more capacity, but we never got around to asking them. So looking a little bit more broadly and thinking about the strategy of engagement, we basically said, if you look at an event just as a single time, we’re going to invite him again next year. But if we look at the event and over late, a lot of the major gift strategies we have the ability to change the whole dynamic, your royalty won’t be that the event it could be that the institution and would be a longer term engagement if we get that right in the planning stage. That’s what we want, right? We don’t want just coming up year after year, and does this include people who come? They may only come one time because there connected with the honoree or just a friend of the organization brought them way convert those kinds of people. Well, you know, it’s very interesting we learn a lot from our buffalo rochester offices because they have a very different evergreen strategy. Honorees are looked at differently than we look at them in new york city, and they are on it for body of work. So as a result, most of their strategy is thinking about how do you get the same donors to renew at higher levels each and every year? So now we’re beginning to implement that, saying, regardless of the honoree, how do we get more of our sponsors to renew? And then for those one time donors who come because of a gala honoring, we need to do some more screening and think about who else in our boards within the make-a-wish family knows them, so that the relationship can transition to the organization, not simply around the honoree. What else can we learn from rochester and buffalo? Well, you know what i think it is? The universal is people want to make a difference, and we just have to make sure that we’re not leading with what we need. But we understand that the first conversation is the donor’s needs, and the donor wants to be able to make a difference how our job is to take them on the journey by showing them how treating them like an investor. And that is a really key difference. Very often we ask for what we need, and we never think from the donor perspective, what about the organization will really resonate with them for the long haul? Do you really feel that upstate or western new york is better than downstate new york at this? No, no, i mean, they they’re scale is very different than ours. I mean, it’s, a smaller scale. But we i think the best thing about fund-raising is if we are open to understand the best practices exist everywhere they learnt from us. We learn from them and i think it’s. Fine, but i think the interesting thing is in every market, if you begin to institute this practice of looking at a bent donors not just as jonas sporting event on an annual basis but really, truly look at it as a pipeline wei have seen donors seventeen hundred dollars to ten million dollars or from our five thousand dollars to five hundred thousand dollars. It isn’t a journey overnight, but the fact of the matter is some of our very largest major gift owners. Their entry point was at an event it was how we dealt with that that made all the difference as to whether or not that became a continued transaction. We sell a ticket, you come to our event or if it really became a transformational relationship with the mission of the organization, are there other specific things that we should be doing in our planning? Aside from the concept of the lifetime donor, the longer term relationship? Are there things specific to a no to the invitations? Who invites them? How they’re invited before the event? What else should we be doing specifically? Well, we began talking about if we were to really make this part of our major gifts strategy, what are the shifts that we need to make? And when you think about it, our invitation is to an event we needed teo even change the messaging we’re not just inviting you to invent. We’re inviting you to share and join in this extraordinary mission and that’s very subtle, but it’s a very big difference. And so we even change the fact that when you come to a gala is a perfect example. Think about how we spend the first hour at cocktails just kind of wandering around. Instead, registration is outside, so the minute you enter the doors, you are coming in and part of a community of like minded people who believe that this is some of the most important work we can do for kids. And you are meeting wish families and volunteers on board members course searching you out as a guest that evening, in that first hour becomes a really important message about we welcome your involvement in this remarkable work. How do we convey that message in our cocktail hour? Well, it’s really about storytelling and changing? Who tells the story? So if you think about it very often at a gallop, whether it is during the cocktail hour, it’s during the main speeches of the night, putting up the ceo, they’re putting up the board chair. We’re talking about the past. We’re actually talking about statistics and how much money we raised in our case, somebody wishes granted when we change the dynamic of who the storyteller wrists really should be the people who experienced the mission first hand and as we tell the story through their eyes, it says to a donor here’s exactly what your donation would do here’s exactly how it makes a difference in that moment for a lifetime that’s a very different relationship from the beginning of the point where that donor enters the gala, if we’re going to focus on storytelling at our events and it might be a very big one memory big gala or might just be a smaller could be anything smaller, gathering, maybe even a meeting. Absolutely we need thio sounds like have a very consistent message that the leadership is conveying that trickles down to all the employees and then also the board is conveying right when we need to have consistency and messaging well. You don’t have consistency in a couple of things. I think you have to have consistency and messaging for sure, but you also have to build a culture where the board and the staff are engaged in thinking about who’s there, you know, there’s, not a throwaway seat in any event, and when you think that it matters most, there is a greater level of engaging on the part of the board in the staff pretty work that gets done who’s at those tables who should we know how we welcome them? What would be important to them? And it allows boards to be successful? You know, something tells me you’re from boardmember i’ve given you every contact i have there’s, nobody else i can approach hold this empowers boards to reach out to other people that the organization knows and be champions at night for the cost. So there are signs that we’re assigning people, too, to meet specific people during the evening during the event absolutely and beyond that, you’re the eyes and ears. Every single person has a role, kind of just surveying the room and learning what what they’re hearing that night and reporting it back. So, justus, we schedule an event on a day before that event takes place. We also have the debrief date by which boardmember volunteer staff get together. What did you hear? What did we learn? In very often? One piece of information about somebody was in the room is magnified. Then buy another piece of information and out of that then becomes thought. Okay, the event is over, but it’s only really big beginning in terms of engaging that donor long term now in the life of the organization and so part of the debrief is what’s next. What are some of the opportunities? And you’re right, we have to be on the same page. If someone were to say to us post event, i’d love to be involved how you have to be able to convey what the options are many and there’s not going to be one that works for everybody. But everybody needs to know here some of the ways that you could be involved in an ongoing basis. So we’ve transitioned from beginning the planning stage two day off now, or we’re at our event. What else? A little bit there. Sorry, that was allowed. What? Else should we be thinking about oh are executed the day of to create this transition? Well, i think the other thing that you could do very, very well is start with the strategy what’s the message that you’re trying to convey that should be the threat of connection to everything that’s being done that night and for us was really talking about the ripple effect of wishes in the ripple effect of wishes is a moment in time, yes, but it also has a lifelong impact. So one of our speakers was a thirty five year old executive with a wall street firm. He was a wish child seventeen years ago, and so the impact or him wass it had a ripple effect through his life. The life of his brother, who they really had a hard time when he was diagnosed with cancer. As the family would tell you, everybody’s diagnosed cancer, you know, said everybody has cancer feels like and so the threat of connection of his wish was in that mama with his brother. But it was also over his life he became a wish raining volunteer helping others but imagine his role now explaining to people in his way that this investment that you will make tonight in support of this event, hasn’t it has an impact come on the future generation of kids who are just like me, that’s a that’s amazing way to tell the story. So the first part is what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to show the ripple effect over time, cross families in communities, and so all of those voices were part of the program that once that strategy is that you can always worry about the logistics next, but you’ve got to get that piece of it and too often in event planning for the night of we think about the logistics, but we haven’t really thought about the strategy and that that’s, what we lead with and that story telling is is just a one part of it. Next is if you’ve told the story, then you’ve gotta provide a tangible way for people to make a difference, and so we don’t. We do a lot of fund-raising at night, but its not around an auction for things. We had one great item this year, and the rest is all about an auction to allow people. To sponsor wishes and that’s the meaning of it. You go from the programme which told the story from the perspective of families who have experienced it and then give people the opportunity to share in joining the mission by sponsoring future wish it was incredible to watch the little store ones, and some don’t respond to the wish. A season for wishes any or twenty five thousand dollars donation in the room, about an individual wish, right down to a thousand dollars and watching the room right up every time somebody was part of the community that was making a difference was really an extraordinary thing. It allowed people to know that this was a really special thing, that in this time in place, we’re all making a difference. We got to take a break, tell us credit card and payment processing. How about a passive residual revenue stream that pays you each month? You can check out, tell us payment processing, because that’s, what this is going to mean for you as one of their partner non-profits, you will get fifty percent of every dollar telling skits, half of what they earn from the businesses that you refer. Goes to you and they have this incredible offer that is only for non-profit radio listeners you refer business, they’re going to look at tell us, is going to look over their processing fees and determine whether they can save the business money if they can. Then of course, that business hopefully we’ll sign up with tell us, because that’ll mean a revenue stream for you. But of course, you know that’s up to the business. If tellers can’t save them money, you get two hundred fifty dollars, tell us cannot help them by saving them fees they’re going to tell us is going to give you two hundred fifty dollars. So who is this apply to think about businesses that you’re boardmember zone local merchants that maybe the local dry cleaner or maybe a car dealership or it could be a target store? Whoever it is, local merchants supporting your work? Um, restaurants, dealerships, maybe i mentioned car dealerships of storefronts any kind? Independent artists, your family members, anybody that takes credit card payments. If tell us can’t save them money, you’ll get two hundred fifty dollars, and again, if they sign up with tell us, you get half the revenue each month that’s the continuing residual revenue stream. Check out tony dot, m a slash tony tell us that’s the only place where you going to find this two hundred fifty dollars offer now, let’s, go back to pat clemency. I’m going to ask a little just sort of a digression just about the logistics of that that auction for wishes. Did you have people predetermined that would that would be bidding on on any of the any of those auctions and those wish auctions way we thought about was, how could we make it? And i don’t mean to suggest the whole thing’s really know. Not only did you have one or two people who you knew would get the ball rolling, they were all legitimate that’s we wouldn’t do that, but but there’s a couple things that we were able to do before tony. So three board members came forward and said for new donors who never made a donation before to make a wish, the ability to come and make a difference for a child that’s a pretty important thing. But how much more would they feel the impact of that initial donation if we came up with a challenge match, so three of our board members got together and one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars was put up in advance. They pledge this and they would match donations of two hundred seventy five thousand, so that was a huge thing. We also knew from a couple of donors at the wish auction for somebody who couldn’t be at the gala, they were out of town was still a way to participate, so for people who weren’t there and want to participate that’s part of our culture now you always have this opportunity give even if you can’t be there. So we knew a handful of dahna they do it’s what you do for the ones who couldn’t be there, so they have already pledged it, and they made that commitment right before, and so we let people know that we were able to do that. Those two things are done in advance. We know that if if people know that the donation they make is going to be doubled there’s a likelihood that they’re going to give a little bit more on dh, then the other one to find a way to let donors who just can’t not be there that night. How else could we participate when it’s about wishes anybody can participate? And i think that helped a cz well, so that’s kind of the two things we know going into the night come and way announced to the audience and then the third part of our trilogy stories after the event, what do we need to be now? Follow-up should be planned during planning, right way we should be thinking about what our follow-up is gonna be while we’re doing the advance planning it is, but we’re hearing a lot that night, and you’re understanding what the individual journey might be for donorsearch we can talk about own overall strategy were also listening to the donors needs as well, and that we hear that that night so that’s that’s an important thing. But, you know, i i think there’s a couple of great examples, our ten million dollars donor started out as a seventeen hundred dollars, went on. He bought tickets to a mets game where they were doing a benefit for make a wish and to see the journey after some of the events, it was where he got to the traditional stage was when he was able to make a difference for the individual wish kids. So he began to grant wishes and then began to think, well, if i could grant a wish, i wonder if i could do more. Then he began to grant a wish a month for five years. Sixty kids, when you think about that and that his attitude wass but i could inspire others by this, and i have to lead by example. So in his office building, he took down some of his paintings and put up something that we have designed, which was simply a tree, acknowledging those wishes that have been granted so simple. First name of a child and a wish. And when you came up into his lobby, you immediately saw that this was somebody who was champion the cost. So he then, as he got closer after after having been an event donor now he’s making a difference for children. And so when it became time to start thinking about the next generation wish children, you know, in two thousand thirteen, we were thirty years old and we had grand on ten thousand wish and we had a big bowl dream for the future. We want to grant the next ten thousand wishes because we understood now importance and impact. I want to grant those ten thousand wishes in a decade. Well, how do you sell somebody on a big, bold dream? Will you go to your best investors in the cause? And he said, well, i like to give you a down payment on the future. And that became the largest individual gift in the history of make-a-wish worldwide from an individual. And think about that for the for the future of this organization. You know, here was somebody who went from seventeen hundred dollars, two. Ten million. But it was never about ten million dollars for hemos about the ability to change ten thousand lives. So you think we moved from transaction? You know, i give you tickets to this event because you gave me a donation moved to the transitional stage where we could say thank you for making a difference for that child to the transformational stage would thank you for making a difference for the future of the mission that’s where the journey goes if we take our special event and understand that each of those stages the preplanning the night of and what happens after are all distinct but equally important segments that can help that donor journey. Okay, we still have a couple of minutes left. Anything you want, teo. Hopefully you do have something you want to share that we haven’t said yet. Well, i think, you know, one of the things that i was really struck by wei had our gala on june twelfth this year, and there was a couple who had come forward and they were security. They secure the honore, and they were great in helping support the fund-raising around ten. And as they thought about sending a letter out two people to solicit funds from business colleagues and family and friends, i learn a lot when you see the letters say, right? And this one just simply said we got involved with make a wish because we learned about Micah 6 year old who want to be a ballerina. We stayed involved because over the years, we’ve seen hundreds and thousands of kids whose lives have been forever changed, and what i realized was here was a couple who came to an event. Was a cultivation event just to learn about make-a-wish and they heard that story and that stayed with them, and now we have an event for which they were such an incredible catalyst as a couple raised one point, six million dollars the fund-raising they did was extraordinary, they’ve been doubted wishing for security, and yet they never lost sight of the fact that it was at an event that was learning about that one child that touch them and made them want to do more. I don’t think i really understood that power of their motivation until that moment, but what i did but, you know, that’s, the discipline that we need to put in place, that’s the story telling you a story telling all the way in which we don’t look at this as a transaction it’s so much more an event can be so much more and could be such a powerful part about how we welcome donors into the extraordinary missions that we all support gonna leave it there. Ok, tony, thank you. My pleasure, pat clemency. She is president and ceo of make a wish metro new york and western new york and thank you. For bringing lessons from rochester and buffalo. Thank you, my pleasure or listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of fund-raising day two thousand fourteen. Thank you so much for being with us next week. I may do sexual harassment in non-profits may check that out. Spend some time with that. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. 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