Tag Archives: nonprofit technology

Nonprofit Radio for February 21, 2022: Pay Attention To #22NTC

Amy Sample Ward: Pay Attention To #22NTC

It’s the 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference and it’s for everyone who uses technology to work for social change. That’s you. It’s a big, virtual gathering of smart, fun people. And me. Our Amy Sample Ward, CEO of NTEN, shares what’s in store.

 

 

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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to

[00:00:27.34] spk_1:
tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with para keratosis if you rose up and persisted with the idea

[00:00:32.52] spk_2:
that you missed this week’s show.

[00:01:33.34] spk_1:
Pay attention to 22 n. t. c. It’s the 2022 nonprofit technology conference and it’s for everyone who uses technology to work for social change. That’s you. It’s a big virtual gathering of smart fun people and me finally our AMY sample Ward shares what’s in store Antonis take two remembering Michael Davidson and robert Sharpe Jr we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back AMY sample Ward the ceo of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor. Their most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement, but that’s about to change. They’re at AMY sample ward dot org and at AMY R. S Ward. Welcome back AMY, so good to talk to you.

[00:01:39.74] spk_3:
Yeah, he and I don’t know if I’m spoiling anything, but I think I might get to share that title of of social media contributor with another guest soon. Hopefully. Right maybe. No,

[00:01:52.94] spk_1:
no, I know that

[00:01:53.68] spk_3:
you want to start over and we’ll edit that

[00:02:35.44] spk_1:
out. It doesn’t work out so well that’s alright. That’s okay. Um, she’s starting her degree and just can’t do long term commitments. Um, you know, I don’t think it’s, it’s, it’s not so bad listeners. We’re talking about Charles King Matthews, who was the outstanding contributor a few weeks ago about um Social Media in Social Media Prospects in 2022. And I hope that she could be a regular contributor, but she’s beginning her degree as you heard us. She and I talked about at Howard University, starting your PhD and it’s too much.

[00:02:36.33] spk_3:
So that’s

[00:02:37.23] spk_1:
fair. Amy remains our technology and, and social media

[00:02:57.24] spk_3:
content. Okay, well, I’ll continue to to bring in other folks and I am happy to share a title with with anyone, but as you alluded to in the intro, after many years of the same intro, you finally get to say a new book title when, when I do come on the show. So I’m excited. I’m excited for that.

[00:03:06.20] spk_1:
Too much. Too much laurel resting previous book, you know, and we’ve only, you know, this is, this is what it’s going to be your third, I believe. Right? Yeah. I

[00:03:16.03] spk_3:
Think there were only a couple of years in between the first and the second. So this, you know, too much laurel resting as to say, I waited too long for book # three.

[00:03:36.64] spk_1:
It’s it’s it’s a little embarrassing. It gets a little embarrassing. It’s like Gene Takagi being the a b a nonprofit lawyer of the year, you know, in 2014, you know, jean, what have you done

[00:03:38.41] spk_3:
lately, Jean has done so much lately. Not

[00:03:43.81] spk_1:
Since 2014 as far as I know it hasn’t even been that early. I’m I’m giving you a hard time. So um yes we will get a chance to talk about your book. It’s about equity, equity and and technology.

[00:03:56.64] spk_3:
Yeah. The text that comes next,

[00:03:59.24] spk_1:
the tech that comes next. That’s the book. That’s the title. Right. Right. And has implications way beyond the nonprofit community.

[00:04:05.84] spk_3:
Right. Yeah. The book talks about policymakers. Um anyone who’s funding technology and social impact work people that want to do that work people in communities that aren’t in any of those roles that want the world to be different. Um And really how all of those groups can work together.

[00:04:26.14] spk_1:
Fantastic. Well we’re gonna have you and the co author on. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And uh it’s good Universal appeal residuals for life. You can

[00:04:33.36] spk_3:
yes. Yeah. Sign you know, sign it over to a Hollywood movie everywhere you go.

[00:04:39.45] spk_1:
Yes. Yes. You and Nicholas Sparks. Absolutely.

[00:04:45.94] spk_3:
Stephen King. I’m

[00:05:25.94] spk_1:
thinking of Nicholas Sparks because he lives only about 45 minutes or an hour away from where I live in a town called new Bern north Carolina Burn is B. E. R. N. Um so he’s well known in over there. But anyway, yes you’ll join the ranks of movie. That’ll be what a cool movie. That would be all right. We got to talk about 22 N. T. C. This is uh this is this is a long one that, I mean this has been a long span. I’ve been, I’ve been going to NtC’s for since 2014. I know, I know with a skip in 2017. I think you uninvited me in 2017 invite you. Yeah. I think I must have done something in 2016 that embarrassed until 20

[00:05:34.95] spk_3:
17. We were in D. C. Maybe you just didn’t want to come to D. C.

[00:05:40.34] spk_1:
No, I think it was you didn’t invite me.

[00:05:42.54] spk_3:
I’ve never invited you. You always come. I don’t know. I

[00:05:45.57] spk_1:
just show up. You show up like gum on your shoe, right? You always just shows up. Alright. Anyway, I

[00:05:52.29] spk_3:
well know travel this year. It’s virtual again. So you can just find a link and there you are. You know, big. It’s virtual.

[00:06:01.64] spk_1:
Yes. Um let’s remind folks what the dates are first. Let’s start with the basics.

[00:06:11.54] spk_3:
March 23 through 25th. It’s a Wednesday Thursday Friday. And it’s because it’s virtual. So here in pacific time it’s like eight a.m. To about 2 30 in the afternoon. Um So depending on what time zone you might be in. Might, you know, you might be starting around lunchtime instead of breakfast. But

[00:06:31.14] spk_1:
okay. And let’s uh you will be more eloquent about this than I am. As I said in my intro. This is for everybody who uses technology for social change. So let’s allay the fears that it’s the nonprofit technology conference and it’s only for technologists.

[00:08:24.34] spk_3:
Yeah. I mean, I guess I would start by saying it’s 2022 who is not a technologist, right? We’re recording this podcast through the Internet and then people are going to be listening to it through the internet, Right? Um, nonprofit staff, regardless of what job title you have or or what department you’re in or even what your organization’s mission is, you have probably relied on technology the last two years to continue doing your work. Right. And I think that folks take on this idea that, you know, we’re just over here using technology and that means that we’re not technologists, but we’re making decisions about which tools to use. We’re budgeting for what tools to use and the decisions we’re making aren’t just a decision about technology there a decision that’s going to determine who and how our community members maybe participate with us. Right. Like these are questions that have big implications for our mission and our impact. And the entire community is folks of every job title you can imagine because you know, lots of organizations make up ridiculous job titles. Um, you know, every department, every mission area people from all around the world. It’s also not just north America. So I think getting getting rid of this idea that like only certain people get to be technologists. Like we can, we can leave that in the before time, right? And now really say, yeah, I need to make technology decisions and I want to make them intentionally and I want to make them good. Um and and the Ntc is a place for those conversations.

[00:08:35.14] spk_1:
Yes, there are. There are lots and lots of seminars, workshops that are that are for non well the way AMy is describing them

[00:08:38.47] spk_2:
there for their there for technologists included. I was gonna say for non technologists,

[00:08:57.44] spk_3:
but people like technical conversations, we’re not saying how do you know what’s the literal code to make this module work? But they might be saying, hey, what do I do to set up a report in my crm to automatically, you know, come to my team every friday afternoon, right? Like it is still maybe more technical than we would have thought about a decade ago, but we’re not necessarily coding everything. Even if we’re really trying to make technology work for us.

[00:09:17.14] spk_1:
What are the biggest Selling points uh that you want folks to know about? Is it is it the is it the keynote speakers? Is it the 100 50 plus sessions? What what what do you want to tell folks about?

[00:10:34.34] spk_3:
Yes, all those things. Um we have really incredible keynotes. Um Alice wong the creator of disability visibility. Um and she just announced her new book coming out this fall, which we didn’t know about. That’s not why we booked her, but then I was very excited to know. She has another book coming out. Um Angelica ross, many folks may know her from pose, but she created trans tax social and um see jones who I I cannot wait. Um a lot of community members are like, so you’d better bring his really cute dog because if anybody follows him on social, he’s always posting photos with his little cute dog. Um so we’ll see who makes an appearance in the keynote zoom video or whatever. Um but this year because because it is virtual, so we don’t have to worry about physically how many rooms the convention center holds. We just kind of threw out the old uh, rubric for how many sessions we can run and we have over 100 and 80 sessions in three days this year, which is bananas now that we’re trying to figure out how to host that many sessions concurrently, you know,

[00:10:40.38] spk_1:
technologically

[00:13:06.84] spk_3:
Right? We only have 16 staff, so we need, we need other people hosting the rooms. Um but it’s so awesome because that’s just that many more community members sharing experience and expertise that they have. And um you know, if you’re registered for the conference, of course, it’s amazing to participate live and and engage with people, but just like last year we’ll keep all the recordings up. So if you’re registered, you can go back and watch them and there were folks last year, you know, that went and rewatched sessions that they had missed live and there were folks like Up there, you know, had had watched 80 sessions for example. So if you really want to get all the, you know, squeeze the lemon like all the way to the last drop you really can. Um, so that’s an awesome resource. And what else? I think the other piece that’s fun that we really care the most about obviously is the sessions and the learning. But if you’ve ever been to an in person, ntc, we care so much about the community feel and the opportunities to meet other people because even though we know every single person in a nonprofit is using technology and and has a place in the antenna community, we know that, that isn’t really what it’s like in an organization, right? That like you might be the only one in your organization who really cares and wants to think about technology in this way and it can feel isolating regardless of what team you’re on. If you’re the only one who wants to have these conversations, it can feel really hard. Um, and so we want that same feeling of like, oh my gosh, I found my people, you know, even though it’s a virtual conference, so we have lots of non educational session things. Um, during the day, we every morning has, has like a coffee talk session. So people are having great conversations. You don’t have to be one of those people, you can just drink your coffee or eat your lunch and and listen and kind of warm up for the day. But we have community conversations all throughout the day and community members, attendees submit those topics. Um, you know, and there’s ones that are like knitters of NtC all the way over to people who want to talk about product management, you know, so it’s really whatever great way to find and meet new folks. And this year we’re also gonna have some that stretch into the evening so that you can kind of relax and have, you know, do do an evening meet up for, for an hour. Yeah,

[00:13:42.54] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want yourself or your non profit to be a thought leader around your work. A thought leader. It takes time to learn that credibility, but turn to, can get you there, get you to where your opinion is sought after, to where people come to you for advice to where you’re a leader for your cause.

[00:13:49.14] spk_2:
Thought leadership.

[00:14:02.04] spk_1:
Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony’s take two, Michael, Davidson and robert Sharpe

[00:14:16.74] spk_2:
JR both died recently. I played a tribute show for Michael because he had been a guest very recently, just in october So that was, that was fitting Michael, you know, such a a smart, humble gentleman,

[00:14:22.74] spk_1:
so knowledgeable about

[00:16:54.54] spk_2:
boards, board efficiency, board functioning, board fundraising, the ceo board dynamic, the staff, board dynamic he had decades of experience in, in all those areas and he was very willing to share that expertise that he had gained over over all those years. Uh, had been on nonprofit radio several times. I had done webinars with him, just always willing to share and, and a real gentleman. So Michael Davidson, robert Sharpe Jr, I just learned A few days ago that he died about 10 days ago. Um, very learned in planned giving. He had the rare gift of working in the weeds but also looking at the big picture, you know, he could be diving deep into a client data set to solve a problem or develop a strategy in the morning and then in the afternoon, do a training on legal strategies and, and forward looking planned giving opportunities based on, you know, current tax law. Ah again, you know that gift of, I guess working in the trees but also seeing the forest and the future of the forest. I hope I didn’t take that metaphor too far. Ah, I’ll always remember co teaching with him some seminars in new york city many years ago and I’ve been grateful to just have his friendship, his advice, you know, through the years. I’ll remember our, our dinners together in new york city that co teaching. Um, and him just being a, a learned gentlemen in gift planning, Michael Davidson and robert Sharpe Jr both, both recently died and always will be remembered.

[00:17:02.24] spk_1:
That is Tony’s take two We’ve got but loads more time for pay attention to 22 NTC with Amy Sample Ward only. But loads

[00:17:18.34] spk_2:
this week. Not boo koo, but loads this week is a short show packed with value but

[00:17:24.04] spk_1:
shorter than usual. What about equity and inclusion? You’re, you’re always, that’s always, it’s a core value of N 10. What are you

[00:17:30.40] spk_2:
doing around the Ntc for that?

[00:18:56.24] spk_3:
Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing to name really is it feels great that we’ve talked about that so centrally in our work for so many years now that we’re really at the place this year where when we were looking at the sessions that came in the session proposals, I think we had 500 some for 180 spots. And you know, years ago there would be like a session and its session name was like diversity equity and inclusion. Like what is it? How could you, you know, um, and now there aren’t any sessions that are assuming equity conversations are like over there, you know, in their own designated equity area. Right? It’s like regardless of what topic you’re presenting, whether it’s fundraising or how to do program delivery online or whatever. So many sessions just in the way they talked about their description or like, you know, the, the outcomes of the, of the session. We’re, what are the equitable implications for this topic. Right. What is it? What are the outcomes that might happen because of X. So it was just so awesome to see the whole community, really understanding equity as the, as the position from which we’re talking versus, oh, Equity is a thing we’ll think about at some point, you know? Um, so it’s all throughout the sessions

[00:19:14.94] spk_1:
now. It’s just, it’s right now, it’s woven in people know that it’s a, it’s a value for N 10, right? Um, you’ve, you’ve been, you’re like, you’re no longer, I don’t know. Is it is it right to say fair to say you no longer need to be conscious about, you know, uh, you include an equity component in your, in your in your in your session proposal. You know, it’s more likely to be well attended, right? I mean, you don’t have to be that

[00:20:24.94] spk_3:
intentionally because yeah, it’s like if you wouldn’t have thought of that, it’s probably not this the conference for you, right? Um, yeah. And there are some sessions that are really explicit, like they are here to talk about equity, but they’re not like, what is it? You know, it’s like, how do you equitably evaluate your impact? It’s probably not all your story to claim, right? Like really interesting conversations like that that I’m looking forward to. Um, but just like we have done in the past, in, in, um, in person conferences. You know, we have racial affinity spaces throughout the day. We have, you know, um, an an accessibility committee that helps you around supporting the conference. Um, and then we’ll have, you know, we have like an accessibility tour and, and places to make sure that whatever place you’re coming from, whatever ways you want to be engaged or or want the conference to adapt to be best for you. We are hopefully already planning for that. And there are ways for you to engage in those ways.

[00:20:37.24] spk_1:
How about some of the fun, the fun parts you mentioned evening sessions or evening meeting? Is there a, is there a replacement for NtC beer? I

[00:22:16.04] spk_3:
think that that I think the Ntc beer folks might be trying to organize um a pre Ntc virtual hangout. Um a really big piece last year that was very popular was we had some music and art sessions and so we’ve expanded those. So we’ve got um, I think five different bands have have signed on and so they’ll be performing a full set and we all get to watch it together and chat. Um we’ve got artists who will have depending on the, you know, there are different types of artists but um we’ll get to see their work and explore what they do and hear from them. Um, so you know, we really wanted to be a place where we’re kind of like feeding different parts of, of your, of yourself, right? So feeding with some knowledge and and new ideas but also, you know sometimes we have great ideas because we looked at a painting and we’re like, oh my mind like opened up that other space that I needed to to have this idea, right? So we really want to incorporate those different pieces and we always have things like meditation walks. Uh, last year we had no idea how walk was gonna go for a virtual conference, but a bunch of people like put zoom on their phone and they went walking in their neighborhood together, you know, even though they were all all over the the globe. So um, where there’s a will, where there’s a will, there’s a way in this community. Yes,

[00:22:40.24] spk_1:
what else? Um, what let’s say? Well let’s let me give my endorsement. Alright, so I wanted amy to talk about it obviously. Uh, so I’ve been bringing non profit radio too, a nonprofit technology conference since 2014 -2017 when I was uninvited seven years. So this is the eighth year that I’ll be capturing a bunch 25 to 30 interviews of, of smart speakers. It’s, it’s my

[00:22:51.24] spk_3:
chore.

[00:23:00.54] spk_1:
I know it’s my unenviable task to go through now. Now 180 sessions to pick out, You know, 50 or 60 to invite so that I get 25-30 folks who can meet, meet, meet at my times and and and want to sit. Um, and of course the virtual conference makes it so much easier because I don’t have to capture 25 or 30 interviews in 2.5 days.

[00:23:19.34] spk_3:
Well the exhibit hall is being torn down around,

[00:24:09.34] spk_1:
that’s right, the lights are going down, the forklift trucks are coming through with their backup back up beepers. non profit radio perseveres. I don’t care. I have something scheduled folks, you’re just gonna have to wait to take down my, well, you can take down my bunting if you want, but you can’t pull my electricity that’s all. Um no, so I’ll be capturing these, these almost, you know, maybe even 30 30 interviews um in the weeks after after the conference. So listeners will be getting a good sample of, of the smart speakers that are gonna be at ntC, but Not as good as having 180 potential videos. Maybe you can break the 80 person record, You know, You Wanna, You Wanna Watch one. Um these are smart people, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s an engaged smart community so

[00:24:15.04] spk_3:
we’ll have to do some sort of, you know, tracking and announce the top three leaderboard. You know,

[00:24:22.77] spk_1:
we

[00:24:48.74] spk_3:
did, we did, you know the platform that we hold the conference on. Um it has a bunch of stats that you can see back on the admin side and one of them is just hours logged in. I don’t know why you would, whatever, you know, um and we found that a staff person had a tab open and had minimized it and forgotten it was there and so you know, two months later, it was like, oh, this staff person has had, you know, 400 hours and was like, what are they doing? And then they was like, oh, they just never closed the tab, you

[00:25:15.04] spk_1:
know? Well if you, if you start to announce top three, then you know, you’re gonna need a quiz after each session. So I don’t want people just streaming videos, but not watching, I want them, you know, engaged with the content. So we’ll have to have a little quiz every 15 minutes or so,

[00:25:20.66] spk_3:
just like netflix.

[00:25:28.24] spk_1:
Yeah, right. I used to watch Yes, yes, something. Um All right. It’s uh, well, anything else, anything else that’s important that,

[00:26:03.84] spk_3:
I mean, I think, you know, the last thing I want to say is there’s even if you’re just now learning about the conference or just now remembering that the conference is coming up, you haven’t missed anything. You know, you can certainly still register there are sessions who are still looking for somebody who might want to co present with them and share their, you know, whatever expertise you might have. Um, and all those community conversations, We haven’t even opened the form for those yet. So you could also come and you know, put something on the agenda. It is not too late. You are welcome. We want you to be there and especially in a virtual world, like the more of us that are there, the better because then there’s more probability that you’ll find the people that you’re looking for

[00:27:01.24] spk_1:
March 23 24 25 go to n 10 dot org. It’s it’s splashed on the homepage, I’m sure. Right and 10 dot org. Okay, okay, non profit radio will be there, we’re going to be uh we’re gonna be capturing a bunch of interviews after um and so you’ll get a sample that way, but it’s not the same, it’s not the same as first of all, you just want to support the community. I mean I wouldn’t suggest, you know, I’m not suggesting just pay to go to the conference and then don’t show up but you want to be, this is a, this is a community you do want to support. So it’s a conference that’s worth it and in 2023 it’s gonna be back live in in person live, you’re gonna want to be in Denver, You’re gonna want to be in Denver, I will be there in Denver assuming I’m not uninvited like I was in 2017.

[00:27:08.04] spk_3:
I’m gonna have to print an invitation now just so that I avoid these accusations,

[00:27:37.94] spk_1:
I will go to Denver, yes non profit radio will be there in 2023 but you wanna you wanna support this in 2022 it’s just smart, you know, there’s a lot to learn, there’s a ton to learn, that’s why I capture so many of the interviews and I bring them to us here a nonprofit radio because there is so much to learn, but you can learn even more by joining the, you know, by by being in the, in the, in the live sessions and and the great fun the evening’s the affinity

[00:27:39.51] spk_3:
groups.

[00:27:41.64] spk_1:
It’s a good community.

[00:27:42.94] spk_3:
Yeah, it really is and will be better with you there. So whoever you are, I’m I’m looking at you through the interwebs and inviting you personally.

[00:28:04.84] spk_1:
Thank you very much amy and 10.org just to to join the conference. Amy is that AMY sample ward dot org and at AmY R S Ward and probably the next time that they’re on, we’ll be talking about

[00:28:09.74] spk_3:
the new book.

[00:28:36.74] spk_1:
That will be the next time. Yes. All right, good luck in the conference planning. Thank you over the next several weeks. And uh, we will, we will, we will be back soon. Thanks very much. Pleasure next week Founder’s syndrome with Heidi johnson. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o

[00:28:46.74] spk_2:
our creative producer is

[00:29:06.94] spk_0:
Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2022: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look big picture at your HR investments, corporate docs and financials. Also, what to look out for in crowdfunding, donor disclosure, data protection, and more. Gene is principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO) and our legal contributor.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Path to text: transcripts/2022/01/574_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20220117.txt

[00:02:10.34] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of proto psychosis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show Legal Outlook for 2022, Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look at big picture items like your HR investments, corporate docs and financials also though what to look out for in crowdfunding donor disclosure, data protection and more, jean is principal of the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group Neo and our legal contributor On Tony’s take two 50% off planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s always my pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi to the show. You know who he is. It’s almost it’s almost superfluous for me for me to do the intro. But but jeanne deserves it. He’s well credentialed and I want to make sure that he gets his due introduction. Gene Takagi are legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco. He edits that wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should be following and he is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and he’s at jeanne, Welcome back.

[00:02:11.94] spk_1:
Great to be back. tony how are you?

[00:02:13.98] spk_0:
It’s always a pleasure. Thank you. I’m well happy New Year.

[00:02:17.99] spk_1:
Happy New Year.

[00:03:05.74] spk_0:
Thank you. And let’s, so let’s let’s talk about the new year. Um and just before we do I want to remind folks that not too long ago we have genes one, our legal audit which you might want to look back at. That was a sort of a condensed version of some of what we’re gonna talk about today. Although we have lots of new subjects to talk about today too. But there was the one our legal audit and also with jean recently Risk management Part one and then a different show. Risk Management Part two. So those are resources that you can look back at just from a couple of months ago and we’ll go into and and those go into more detail on some of what we’re gonna talk about today jean. Uh where would you like to start for the new year, throw it open, throw it, I throw it open to you. What would you like to start with?

[00:03:58.64] spk_1:
So it does seem like kind of this chance that restarting, getting reenergized and thinking about our organizations and where we wanted to go. Um Yes, we have to keep in mind some of those um risks that we talked about in previous shows but we also have to think about kind of where we want to go. What of our, what our dreams are um what our vision is for the organization? Had we properly captured it? Um, what is our mission? Is that sort of properly captured? Is everything because our environment seems to be changing week by week. It seems to be new stuff that comes up that we have to consider. Are we still on track with where we want to go? So having these sort of broader discussions. I like sending those organizational priorities for the new year.

[00:04:06.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um, what would you, what what priority would you like to start with?

[00:06:07.94] spk_1:
Sure. So, um, being the lawyer, I say, okay, let’s talk about legal compliance just to make sure we’ve got some systems in place, mission and values, which we’ve frequently emphasized them when we’ve had discussions about not just existing to further your mission, but to do it in a way that advances your values and if equity and inclusion of part of those values, then, you know, that’s something you should be thinking about as well, definitely considering some of the trends that are out there. And I know we’ll get into that a little bit later in the show, but also including kind of the times that we’re we live in and acknowledging that yes, we’re under the impact of Covid, which seems to be shifting constantly in both how it’s affecting us and how we might need to respond to it. The great resignation, which certainly isn’t completely unrelated to the Covid, but that is a huge trend and movement as we’re trying to figure out how do we keep our workers, are we burning them out? The mental health issues that are, you know, hitting pretty much all of us, um, from the isolation, remote, working from the uncertainties of health, from sick family members and loved ones and all of that and saying, well, are we going to be able to keep our team together? Should we be keeping our team together the way we’re working now? Do we need to shift our work practices? Do we need to shift what type of benefits for giving to them? All of those things have got to be sort of raised? And I would say raise at the board level, you know, together with the executives and senior management team. Let’s talk about it. Let’s brainstorm think about this and get what our organizational priorities are this year, because things can change rapidly and rapid change if you don’t have any plans um, to anticipate some of them don’t have contingency plans can force you into very, very stressful times where immediate actions are necessary and you can sometimes make bad decisions if you’re under that type of time stress. So

[00:06:18.63] spk_0:
then it because then it becomes a crisis

[00:06:20.30] spk_1:
right? Exactly.

[00:06:48.64] spk_0:
And and a crisis in staffing, especially knowing how hard it is to hire folks now, you know, you talked about, you know, keeping the team together or should we keep should we keep the team together? But, you know, I’m sure you’re seeing it with your clients. The difficulty in hiring, you know, you want to, that, that, that’s a, that’s a huge factor in, you know, do we have the right team? Well, putting the right team together, it’s gonna take a lot longer than it used to?

[00:08:01.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. And if you’re talking about retention, you got to figure out what are you going to invest in this? I know you want to, you know, provide as much as you can to your beneficiaries. But if you’re not really considering the team of people in, you know, on your team that are providing those services that are supporting those services, the whole thing can collapse. So just remember where your infrastructure and when your groundwork is and how important the human resources are in your organization to being able to deliver services and provide goods for your charitable missions. So really important not to neglect that. And that requires an investment both on retention and if you aren’t able to retain everybody and you need to recruit, you’re gonna have to be able to show what you’re going to invest in those new employees and give them time to learn. You can’t expect them to perform like experience people have, um, in the past. So it’s, you know, some patients, um, and definitely investment in education and training and orientation, um, and all the rest and again, um, to the extent that your executive is probably also overwhelmed with everything else going on. The board is really pivotal in trying to be able to come up with plans that help invest in their teams.

[00:08:10.44] spk_0:
This goes to legal audit the conversation we had a few months ago. You’d like to see a review of governing documents to.

[00:09:31.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I I always think that that’s a great thing to check out in the new year. Just even if you have somebody, you know, a higher up kind of a board member or where your executive or senior manager take a look At your articles and bylaws, even spending 30 minutes on it and saying is our mission really reflected in these documents or have we evolved into something else? And these documents are like stale and old and outdated now in that case those documents still rule. So if you have the I. R. S. Or a state regulator coming in audit you, if you’re not performing within that mission statement in your articles and bylaws, you could be acting completely out of compliance and worst case scenario, you can really threaten the organization through penalties, etcetera. So that’s something to take a look at. Also just take a look at a lot of organizations. I find out their their boards, they’re like, oh, you know, we forgot to elect them. You know, we, we, you know, we’ve had terms, you know of two years but they’ve been on for like 10 years and we’re happy with them. So we just don’t do elections that can be really, really harmful as well for multiple reasons. But you know, sit back, see what you’re doing and what you’re not doing consistent with your articles and bylaws. And if you need to change things determine that you have to change. And if you need the help of a lawyer, try to find somebody that can help you with that. And there are some good resources on the web as well.

[00:09:48.64] spk_0:
What’s, what’s one of the good resources?

[00:10:15.04] spk_1:
A little bit of a self plug because I’m a board member, but board source has excellent resources on board of directors, governance things of that nature. Stanford University also has excellent resources in terms of sort of template documents that are just a guide for nonprofits. It’s not one size fits all, but it just gives you a general idea about how some things operate. Um, so those are just too good resources to look at.

[00:10:18.35] spk_0:
And, and again, we, we talked about this extensively in the show called your one

[00:10:24.34] spk_1:
hour legal audit.

[00:10:30.14] spk_0:
You have some last one. You have some financial performance advice for the new year.

[00:13:04.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Well I think probably, um, most people take a look at their financials throughout the year on the board level and on the executive level. Um, but the new year, you’ve actually sort of completed your financials and they might not be, um, in final form yet, but you might have what some people call it pro form, a set of financials, um, sort of close to final, where you get to assess what you’ve done in the year, you know, for, for most organizations, this goes without saying, but you want to make sure that you’re performing in a way that you’re not becoming insolvent. So you want to make sure what your balance sheet looks like and whether you have net assets, um, if you don’t have net assets, that means that you are either insolvent or, you know, in the zone of insolvency, you have to think about how you’re going to address that very serious issue. And I would say you don’t have internal expertise on dealing with it, get outside help right away if that’s the case. But your, your statement of revenues and expenses as well, are you sort of operating what people call in the black so that there is, you know, some net income in there or are you operating in the red where you’re very concerned because you’re losing money, timing is always important. So it’s misleading to look at one year in isolation because sometimes grants are given in one year, but they’re actually uh received in another year. So the timing issue can pose different challenges about reading financials. So you want to be able to read it sort of collectively through a multi year period just to know where you stand. And again, if board members aren’t able to help an executive and the executive feels like they need some help with understanding financials, to reading financials invest in everybody’s training in this area and there are a lot of people, even pro bono, that, that are offering this training pro bono and a lot of resources on the web. So make sure you understand your financials and what they’re indicating. You don’t need to know every single financial ratio that you know, business people use, but just generally no. Are you healthy financially or are you trending bad? And if you have several years where you’re in the red, where you, where you’re not making money, it looks like you’re bleeding money, then that might be indicative of some change that’s necessary in order to make your organization sustainable on an ongoing basis. So again, you don’t want to hit crisis mode financially. So this is a good chance, take a look at your financials, not just last year, but over a multiyear period and see where you are, get help if you need it.

[00:15:08.54] spk_0:
We have a show that I replayed, oh, I think within the past six months, uh, the guest was Andy Robinson. So you could go to tony-martignetti dot com and just search his name Andy Robinson, but it was something like teaching your board basic financials and he wrote a book, I’m pretty sure it was published by charity channel, uh, with, with a title similar to that. So if you, and the show is a few years old, but reading financial statements and and balance sheets hasn’t changed much in probably 100 years. Um, so it’s just all in and out now now, it’s all in Excel. But uh, so if you’d like some help with that, there is a, there is a show where Andy Robinson was the guest talking about, you’re improving your boards, financial literacy. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, your 2022 communications plan. Does it have lots of projects? Lots of writing projects? You can get the biggest projects off your plate and outsource them. Free up staff time to devote to the work that it’s not feasible to have others doing for you. Like the annual report, just because it’s been done in house in the past, doesn’t mean it has to be done in house this year. What about research reports, White papers, your other heavy lift pieces. Do you need help with writing projects in 2022, Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to legal outlook for 2022 with Gene Takagi. Okay, so let’s talk about some trends then, jean, you have a, you have a case we haven’t talked about, we haven’t talked about an actual case for a while. Americans for prosperity.

[00:19:16.54] spk_1:
Yeah. So um that was a huge U. S. Supreme Court case at least huge for the nonprofit sector. Um, but with deeper implications for if I if I’m not over hyping it for democracy itself. So um so americans for prosperity, Foundation versus Banta, who was the California Attorney general basically it was about the schedule be disclosure of donors who donated more than $5000. So for nonprofits who know how to prepare their form 19 nineties, you’ll know that on schedule B of your form 1990. Eur actually disclosing to the I. R. S. It’s not public information. Um But it’s to the I. R. S. The name and address of your donors who donated more than $5000. Now that hasn’t changed, you still have to disclose it to the I. R. S. But certain states, including California where volunteers from as the attorney general um New york I believe New Jersey I believe Hawaii also included Um all asked for a copy of the 990 including an unredacted schedule B to be given to the state regulator because they also want to look at that information for state law compliance purposes. A lot of them are concerned about donors who give money but get something back in return that’s not being disclosed. So if they ever have to have an investigation of that, that information turns out to be very helpful to the state to be able to say ah they were giving money but they also took in this huge benefit, this huge contract for example, which you know, reap them millions of dollars. Um So there was a legal case um that went up through the courts um finally hit the U. S. Supreme Court and the A. G. Lost here, The California G. Um So the court decided and we know the court’s composition is fairly conservative right now. The court decided that uh the states don’t have this right. Um It was based on the fact finding of the lower courts which is a little bit unfortunate because if the higher court could have considered more facts, then it might have been decided a different way but based on kind of how how our legal system works and and and how the Supreme Court works and the composition of the Supreme Court. They held that, hey this is not disclosed able to the states essentially that’s the impact of it. The broader impact on why I said democracy might be uh issue here is because well what about sort of campaign finance disclosures? And what about the I. R. S. Should they be entitled to that information as well? So it’s really helpful in compliance. But the counter argument and why some organizations charities, we’re also um not in favor of the disclosures is because of the protection of the donor. And the old case cited um in this part of the argument was an N double A cp case that said, well, if we disclose our donors, the KKK had threatened to kill all of them. Um And you can see why privacy was important in that issue and this issue, it was nothing like this. I think it’s a Koch brothers, um, kind of funded charity. They wanted really to keep their identity, um, more hidden because they have desires to influence politics in many ways. And if it always gets associated with them, then the impact lessons. So if they can look like they’re ground swells of movements that are funding these things rather than individual donors, um, it looks better for for what they’re trying to do. So that’s, you know, that’s what’s at stake here is not only are the state’s not allowed to get this information that would really help them in state law enforcement of whether there’s diversion of charitable assets that benefit

[00:19:29.74] spk_0:
donors. But

[00:19:30.15] spk_1:
in the broader sense, are we going to allow more dark money to enter into our political systems without knowing that there are donors, heavy donors that back these, you know, politicians or political parties or political movements. So that’s the scary part about this decision.

[00:19:57.94] spk_0:
What’s the, I think infamous Supreme Court case that that allowed the allowed the dark money into, uh, into politics. United

[00:20:02.73] spk_1:
Citizens. United

[00:20:27.54] spk_0:
United. Yeah. Um, All right. All right. And so I just want to repeat this. So this case that Gene was just talking about is americans for prosperity Foundation V. Banta B. O. N. T. A. What about crowdfunding you, you point out that there’s a new crowdfunding law. Hope is this a little more optimistic? I hope?

[00:21:22.54] spk_1:
Uh, well, depending upon how you look at it. And I think in one sense it’s inevitable. Um, a lot of our laws that are developed regarding fundraising, um, don’t even, and never anticipated the internet, right, johnny. So, uh, you know, now crowdfunding platform is, you know, not just the internet, the use of the internet, but it’s a lot of different for profit companies getting involved, um, to enable charities and organizations and people who are not charities to raise funds that look like they could be for charitable purposes, Right? So you want to help victims of a fire, but you want to help them directly, because some individuals said, I want to start a Go fund Me campaign, right? And say, well, you know, chip in 50 bucks and let’s try to get these people some help doesn’t, that doesn’t go through a charity. Often it just goes to this person, right, who promises to give these other people money

[00:21:35.90] spk_0:
and go funding the person’s goodwill. Honestly, yeah,

[00:21:58.14] spk_1:
Go fund Me is, you know, reacted to this and they’re probably the biggest crowdfunding platforms. So they’ve reacted to this in terms of having their own internal policies to help prevent a check. But overall, there’s, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of crowdfunding platforms out there that do this to make a profit. Um, and they may not have those types of controls or checks to not to just, you know, prevent somebody from saying, let’s raise money to help fire victims and then just keeping it. Um, so,

[00:22:11.97] spk_0:
what, what, what is the import of the law for, for us?

[00:23:21.34] spk_1:
So I think the import of the law is, if you’re going to get on and decide, hey, we want to do crowdfunding, um, you’ve got to select your platform provider carefully and this law, which is in California, but is likely to spread across different states in various forms, says, well now, if you’re gonna do that, you’ve got to make sure that this crowdfunding platform is registered. Um, and they’re reporting and there are all sorts of rules involved. So if you have a contract with them, it should be subject to these rules that might say things like, well, if they collect money, they have to give the money to the charity within a certain time period. Right? So they couldn’t say, well, it takes this administration, so maybe a couple of years before you get that, you know, nobody’s gonna be happy with that, but without rules, why not? Um, so these are, this is why it’s important for charities to have rules. The actual details of the rules. So I can see why some people have some, some issue with them. And we haven’t had all of the regulations yet, they’re still in discussion. So this is very, Still very trending, but the crowdfunding law, the law, the general law that’s in place now will become effective in California in 2023, and the regulations are being developed right now,

[00:23:58.04] spk_0:
let’s turn to remote work, which is obviously so much more common now. Hybrid work, you know, return to work dates are being pushed off and off. Um What what are what are what are what trends are you seeing? What should be on, will you be on the lookout for with respect to uh remote work and employment law issues?

[00:25:10.84] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s, you know, this is a really tricky area. Um you know, for sure, Covid where people were suddenly not permitted to to go indoors in some cases for months. Um and who knows if, you know, we’re going to return to some of those scenarios with the omicron variant out there, We’re hoping that it’s less um severe in terms of its impact, even if it might be a more transmissible, but if we if we keep worrying about this and saying, you know, our workers aren’t comfortable coming to work, even if the law allows them to come to work. Um Maybe we’re going to let people work remotely, and many of us have gone full remote, some of us have gone back to partial returns, some have gone back to full returns and then gone back, you know out the other way and said, okay, you know, it’s at the workers discretion whether they want to come in or not. So what makes us a little bit tricky. Um is that you don’t control the work environment as the employer, if they’re working at home, right? Um but that becomes the work environment, if they’re doing work from home, that’s their work environment, and, you know, the employer is responsible for the work environment if they should get hurt, for example,

[00:25:22.94] spk_0:
um

[00:26:56.24] spk_1:
So it becomes a little bit tricky about, well, how do you, how do you handle that for workers comp reasons, for safety reasons, for OSHA reasons? Um and I think there’s an understanding by regulators that, you know, this is out of control of most small businesses, small charities and, you know, to to that extent, we’re not really gonna look to enforce things on that level, but there are other things that, that are also concerning, because not everybody goes when, when they decide to work remote, we work in the same city or in the same state, right. A lot of us um have decided to, you know, maybe move back with family, which might be in another state. In some cases it could be another country, or some of us have decided to travel and spend a little bit of time, you know, in different places. Um So how does allow treat that? And basically, you know, the old rules, which are the rules, many of us are stuck with. Um the old rules are, well, you have to comply with the laws where the worker is doing the work, so if you have a worker in new york who’s now working remotely and came out to florida, well, then all the employment rules regarding worker safety and wage and hour laws and salary, overtime, sick pay benefits, all the florida laws apply to that worker now. Um, and so now it’s like, well, you’ve got to work in florida, you’ve got to think about, are you qualified to do business in

[00:27:00.21] spk_0:
florida,

[00:27:36.94] spk_1:
charity registration in florida? Um, and you may have had no connection to florida before, but all of a sudden you have a worker working there. Um, so a few states, um, and they’re not very many, but a few states that said, well, you know, during covid, we’ve got these temporary rules where we’re relaxed, where you don’t have to do that. And there’s also state tax issues, right? State payroll taxes, and, and other times, all of those things, some states said, you don’t have to worry about it. A lot of organizations are simply not complying with, But,

[00:27:37.49] spk_0:
but you said it’s only a handful of states that said, we’re we’re we’re not enforcing

[00:27:42.14] spk_1:
right. Exactly.

[00:27:43.33] spk_0:
The majority of

[00:29:01.34] spk_1:
states are, Yeah, well, I shouldn’t say they’re enforcing, but they haven’t the old laws or the existing laws still apply. There are no transition laws, so you’re out of compliance. And if they do enforce, which might not be like a, you know, a regulator coming out to you and saying you haven’t done this, it may be your employee is unhappy with something you’ve done, who’s working there and said, hey florida law applies and you haven’t been complying with the florida sort of benefits laws that, that apply. And maybe I could give you more specific example because san Francisco, if you came out to California, your remote employee came out to California, san Francisco has mandatory six hours and not a lot, a lot of states don’t have sick our pay. Um, but all of a sudden if you’re not paying them and they get wind of that, hey, you were supposed to pay me for this and you haven’t been, it’s the employee who could launch the complaint. Um, so it’s just to be careful of these things and, and just as your strategy for charity registration, tony when you’re sort of fundraising all over the country to, to, you’re not going to be able to maybe do all 50 states at once, but just to make sure you’ve got a plan to attack this kind of the same thing here. Um, check out where your employees are, you should know exactly where they are and check each state in terms of how strictly, maybe in terms of enforcing this and start to slowly comply

[00:30:12.74] spk_0:
the implications of state law. Yeah. What about the technology remote work? I don’t know if that’s all been figured out yet and maybe there were, maybe there were stopgap measures during the, during the, the darkest part of the pandemic, but but going forward, you know, tech technology has to be, has to be upgraded. You know, are we gonna, we’re gonna continue providing work phones? Are we going to provide work laptops? What about paying for internet access over the long term? I mean, you know, the internet access can be costly. And if if work is taking up a lot of the bandwidth, isn’t it appropriate for an employer to be paying a portion? And then how do then how does the, how does the, what’s the mechanism for the employee verifying how much they pay and you know, and then what percentage are we gonna cover of that, all the all the technology issues around, around remote work.

[00:30:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, def definitely. And and as an as an employer, I would say, beyond sort of any legal compliance issues, um, you’ve got a, I think an ethical issue to make sure you’re providing your employees with the tools to do their job. And if you’re allowing remote work, you should make sure that they have the tools. So if they need a computer to be able to access it, so they’re not, they’re not using their personal computer. Um then you should make sure that happens same thing with the telephone. And if, you know, if those are going to be dedicated to work, um it should be explicitly written out that way. But if you force them to use their personal things, there are some states that actually do have laws that say you must reimburse your your employees if they’re using the tools that they need um for for remote work, but just ethically. Yeah.

[00:31:18.74] spk_0:
But then that’s then that raises security issues too. Absolutely. They have any kind of HIPPA protected information on their personal laptop. That’s gonna be a big problem. That that’s I think that’s probably a mistake if you’re dealing with that kind of data. But um

[00:32:01.74] spk_1:
and don’t we probably all have that type of stuff on our personal computers, right? You know, sort of HIPPA protected? We may have had emails like that are saved onto our computers. Um Right. So if if the computer is also being used for work and there’s a work issue that causes that data to be taken or corrupted, like, you know, what’s the employer’s responsibility if they hadn’t provided an alternative, it’s a great point

[00:32:50.94] spk_0:
and and it’s not only hip hop data, but other other personalized data that that maybe on now the personals, the employee’s personal computer, desktop or laptop or phone, you know, how is that? How is that private private data protected? Do they have malware prevention on their on their personal devices so that so that company emails that they’re that they’re using on their personal device aren’t potentially compromised. I mean, the use of the personal equipment raises a lot of technology and and Legal privacy and ethical issues to your right. I mean, if the person is eight or 10 hours a day, they’re using their personal laptop, shouldn’t there be some compensation for that?

[00:34:46.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think minimally because no matter you know how much we encourage people to have sort of work dedicated computers provided by the workplace, people are going to use their personal phones. I mean we can go back to the politicians who have all been using their personal funds. So we know it happens regardless of what the best practices. But what can the employer do, they can pay for all of that data protection stuff that that computer should have. Right, tony because now it has much more sensitive information on there and the employer is partly responsible for some of the other information that could be on there and hack. So yeah, employers should help. And that kind of leads us to the whole data security issue as well that everybody’s got to be paying attention to now is really um nonprofits have important data in their system. Some of it is, you know, hipaa protected some of it is other privacy information. You may have employment reviews on there that you don’t want going out into the real world or client, you know, feedback which might be positive. Some of it might be negative sensitive communications, all sorts of stuff that you might find on a work computer and if it gets hacked and if that data gets stolen or if somebody holds the system which might run your programs or aspects of your programs if they cause your system to crash and say that they will only sort of fix it because they’ve hacked and caused the crash. If you pay a ransom, you’ve got all sorts of problems. Uh and maybe some of that may have been mitigated with some basic steps like you mean you’re not going to be, well even the U. S. Government can’t prevent all hackers. I think we we know that, but you can take reasonable steps based on your budget, whatever that might be to to control some of this. So it really is important to have some safeguards.

[00:34:55.74] spk_0:
Another potential category of data is the G. D. P. R. Data. If if if your nonprofit is implicated at all in in that european common law law then or the yeah then then you’ve got those concerns as well.

[00:35:08.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. So if you have european donors or you’re doing business with any european entities and you have data from those entities or persons be careful and again, remote working can trigger some of that. So if if they decided to, you know their home or or they want to travel to europe and do their work from there.

[00:35:28.74] spk_0:
Um,

[00:35:29.74] spk_1:
all sorts of implications.

[00:37:44.03] spk_0:
Yeah. Absolutely right. People very good point where where people are sitting and where they’re planted when they’re working, It’s time for Tony Take two We’ve got 50% off the tuition for planned giving accelerator. That’s because just last week A donor stepped up someone who believes very deeply in planned giving accelerator and he is offering to pay 50% of the tuition For the 1st 10 nonprofits that take him up on his offer. A couple have already done it as of the time I’m recording, but there are several spots left. So if you’ve been toying with the idea of planned giving accelerator, it’s never going to be cheaper than 50% off. What the way this will work is. You’ll pay the tuition in full, which is $1195 for the six month course. This donor will then make a gift to you of half of that. So you’ll have a new donor, he’ll pay half your tuition. So it ends up being 50% off the full tuition cost. I know the donor, it’s someone I trust you have my word. Your final cost will be half of the full tuition if you’d like to jump on this and be one of the members of what is now our february class. I want to give people enough time for this because it, it just came in last week. So I’m extending, we’re, we’re not gonna start the class until february if you’d like to be part of that february class At 50% off email and we’ll, we’ll talk about planned giving accelerator and whether it can help you launch your planned giving program. Mhm. tony at tony-martignetti dot com. That’s me. That is Tony’s take two, We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for legal outlook for 2022

[00:38:01.22] spk_1:
one and one of the tools to think about and I’m a little bit guilty of this as well um is be careful of public wifi um because that often is an entryway for a

[00:38:03.83] spk_0:
hacker. Yeah, that’s totally unsecured airports, airplanes,

[00:38:09.89] spk_1:
coffee shops,

[00:38:13.42] spk_0:
coffee shops, Starbucks, wherever those are, all unsecured networks.

[00:38:29.32] spk_1:
Right? Meaning that there is the potential for somebody in there who has some malicious intent if they want to be able to hack into to your computer through that public wifi. Unsecured wifi. And there are different systems um but maybe one of the simplest for for those of us who have smartphones, which I think is most of us is you could actually create a sort of a private wifi just

[00:38:52.92] spk_0:
for your smartphone, right? Hotspot? Hotspot and don’t use the unsecured wifi to connect to, you know, use the uh the four G or five G or the five GHZ et cetera.

[00:38:56.17] spk_1:
Right? And that’s something an employer could pay to make sure that the employee has significant data and data plan that can incorporate all the additional data that they may need in their plan because of the work. So again, that would be reasonable and and ethical for the nonprofit employer to pay for their employees to have a higher data plan. Um, if they’re going to to use that and insist as a policy that they do not use public wifi. If they’re using a work computer or a computer that contains work and sensitive information,

[00:39:36.52] spk_0:
all you need is to transmit an email on, on an unsecured wifi that that has a donors credit card number, maybe

[00:39:38.77] spk_1:
native

[00:39:58.12] spk_0:
birth address, name any, any two of those things together, uh, hacked could be very detrimental to that donor. And you know, whether it ever gets traced back to you is is uncertain, but you’ve, you’ve put your donors privacy at risk in a simple email that has any two of those pieces of information.

[00:40:04.31] spk_1:
And it appears to be a myth, um, when people have relied on, they’re not going to go after us because we’re nonprofits, people don’t go

[00:40:12.29] spk_0:
after. Oh, that’s bullshit. Oh, that’s ridiculous.

[00:40:14.57] spk_1:
Right?

[00:40:22.61] spk_0:
I’m working with a client now that, that is a, is in new york city that’s, that’s, um, victim of, of a malware, uh, ransomware, so brought me a ransomware attack.

[00:40:27.61] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:40:40.41] spk_0:
And they’re keeping it quiet so I’m not permitted to say who it is. But um, yeah, they’ve, they’ve been, they’ve been hindered for weeks and weeks with data accessibility issues.

[00:40:42.71] spk_1:
Yeah. And it’s much more common than we think because organizations do want to keep it quiet because if there is a vulnerability, they don’t want to come and say other hackers come come and attack us, we’re vulnerable. So it may be much more pervasive than we think

[00:40:57.61] spk_0:
and that myth also breaks down along ideological

[00:41:00.04] spk_1:
lines.

[00:41:21.61] spk_0:
Some some person on the left may may attack an organization on the right. Some person on the right may attack an organization on the left just because of where the organization stands with respect to the person’s political and ideological beliefs that that that’s enough. It doesn’t matter that you’re a nonprofit. It’s it’s your ideology and your mission. It has nothing to do with your tax exempt status as to why somebody would or wouldn’t go after you.

[00:41:28.41] spk_1:
Yeah and um in these times that those ideological differences have been very um pronounced and. Yeah.

[00:41:41.11] spk_0:
Alright where else should we go? Gene with trends, trends for the new year. Come on.

[00:44:24.69] spk_1:
Um Let’s talk a little bit since we’re talking about technology and data security. Let’s talk a little bit about crypto currency because I find that pretty fascinating. Um There was an organization that came together and bid $40 million on a copy of the U. S. Constitution just a few weeks ago. Um That money the $40 million plus more I think about 47 or $48 million was raised for that purpose in less than two weeks. Um So um Cryptocurrency donors um often have made a ton of money because of the appreciation of cryptocurrencies like. Bitcoin for for those who aren’t super familiar with it. Um And if you donate Cryptocurrency, it’s like donating a non cash asset, meaning that if You bought crypto currency for $1,000 10 years ago and it’s worth now several million dollars, which if you bought the red Cryptocurrency, that might be the case if you sold it, uh you would have a lot of taxes to pay on that appreciation right? The several million dollars of appreciated income that would be subject to capital gains tax. Um So if you sold it and donated some of the proceeds, that would not be a very tax efficient way to donate. When if you donated the Cryptocurrency itself, what you do is you get to take a fair market value deduction of the several million dollars. So you gave several million. So potentially you could deduct that is a charitable contribution and pay no capital gains tax because he never sold it. Um So very tax efficient way of giving um And Cryptocurrency people, wealthy millionaires and others who decided that they wanted see some positive impact um from giving these gifts are are making gifts of Cryptocurrency now and that’s that’s partly why I am so many gathered together to say hey we’d like to fund a charity to buy a copy of the U. S. Constitution so that we can ensure that this constitution is always for the public’s benefit and on public viewership and not sitting in somebody’s house, you know for for their own prestige. Um But that really opens it up, cherish. Think about there’s a lot of these people who made quite a bit of money on Cryptocurrency and a lot of younger people are investing barely heavily in Cryptocurrency now. So it’s something to not sort of blow away if we’re um kind of our age or older, tony to say, Cryptocurrency, what is that? It’s it’s something to really embrace now because it’s it’s not just this exotic tool now, it’s part of regular investment portfolios.

[00:45:56.79] spk_0:
Absolutely, it’s it’s it’s coming and and jean this dovetails perfectly with Our November 15 show of 2021 Bitcoin in the future of fundraising with my guests who are an Connolly and Jason shim who wrote a book Bitcoin in the future of fundraising. So, um it’s do you it’s just more, more sage advice that crypto donations are coming. It’s not a matter of if it’s just when are you gonna get on board now or you’re gonna wait two more years and potentially be behind the curve. Um and as an and Jason pointed out today, there are so few organizations accepting crypto that a lot of people are just searching for. Where can I donate? Cryptocurrency and probably largely, Gene for the reasons you’re describing there, They’re looking for a direct crypto donation to help them with substantial capital gains. Are there specific legal implications of crypto donations that that we need to be aware of or or is it just, you know, you just want folks to know that this trend is, it’s in the middle, it’s happening right now.

[00:48:15.97] spk_1:
So I think, you know, one of the reasons why charities are afraid to take Kryptos because they don’t know what laws apply when they receive the crypto. They’re like, what do we do with this? Um, and there are ways to easily cash that out and turn it into us cash. And in fact, most charities that accept crypto and they’re not a lot, you’re right, tony but most carriers that accept them liquidate them immediately turned them into cash and deposited into fiat currency, like regular paper currency, um, in their bank accounts. Um, So they’re not holding onto the crypto very long at all. One of the reasons why that’s, that can be very important is because there are prudent investor rules for charities that don’t apply to for profits that basically say if you’ve got investment assets, charities, this is not just endowments, but just any sort of investment assets for reserves or for a capital fund or anything you can’t invest. It speculatively, you couldn’t just throw it all in like Apple stock, um that would be too speculative. You have to look at it, uh, through what financial professionals, investment professionals called portfolio theory, are you sufficiently um, have an investment portfolio diversified across several different asset classes? So if one bombs, you haven’t tanked all of your money. Um, and the board of directors have a fiduciary duty to live up to the prudent investment laws that also sort of follow this portfolio theory of how how have you actually divest? Sorry? Um diversify Yeah. Um your your funds across different investment classes to protect yourself and there are different considerations that go along with that. Um But that is one reason why you don’t want to get stuck with all of your investments being in crypto because crypto maybe one of the most volatile type of investments where it can double in a matter of days and it could tank and disappear in a matter of days as well. So depending upon what type of Cryptocurrency you have and there are hundreds if not thousands of crypto types of Cryptocurrency um that have evolved in a lot of people and organizations that are making new coins all the time. So new new forms of Cryptocurrency arising and while we talked about crypto as being a part of more investment portfolios as a normal part of of investments. Now it’s not every Cryptocurrency that would be in that it’s certainly one

[00:48:47.07] spk_0:
1000 right? Some of these thousands trade for thousands of pennies, Thousands Yeah thousands of pennies even you know .0001 three zeros and a one is you know is the value of the currency. Um So. Alright that’s perfect as I said, perfect dovetail to that to that uh that november show because you’re you’re raising the prudent investor rule and and uh portfolio theory.

[00:50:07.66] spk_1:
One more thing on this, tony the forms the I. R. S. Forms for when you get Non cash contributions of more than $500. And how quickly you sell them. Um Also applies to form 82 83 is what the donor needs to sign when they give a non cash contribution of over $500 of over $500. And if it’s over $5000 which many crypto gifts are, they have to get a qualified appraisal for this. So that’s really important. And the Dhoni which is the charity has to sign that form for the donor. And then if the donor the Dhoni, I’m sorry the charity sells it within three years, they have to sign a form 80 to 82. Yeah so that’s again it’s not terribly hard. It sounds like a lot of just legalese I’m blabbing out but it’s not too hard but just take a quick look at those. If you decide that you want to start getting Cryptocurrency and at worst you might ask your donor to find a donor advised fund that takes crypto turns it into cash and then disperses it to the charity. So there are donor advised funds that do that

[00:50:15.76] spk_0:
interesting. Okay so so a Cryptocurrency donation is a non cash donation

[00:50:19.90] spk_1:
correct?

[00:50:58.76] spk_0:
Okay and for non cash donations of $500 or more, That’s where your your donor has the implication of i. r. s. Form 82 83. And you as the charity if you sell it within three years which your advice is that they do because it’s of its volatility Then you’ve got the implication of i. r. s. Form 80 – 82. I always thought those were backwards. The donors should have 80 to 82 because that comes first. Then comes 82 83 from the don’t to the Dhoni first the donor has it. Then the charity should be 80 to 82 82 83. But it’s not It’s 82 83 for your donor and 80 – 82 for you.

[00:51:06.16] spk_1:
That sounds like larry david logic. But that’s how I think as well.

[00:51:10.58] spk_0:
Yeah. I’ve been accused of being larry David in lots of ways. Including my my hair when it’s long like it is

[00:51:16.23] spk_1:
now. I’ve

[00:51:33.46] spk_0:
been accused of looking like Larry David. But we’re not complaining, we’re helping. That’s all right. Um Alright let’s leave us with something else. Another trend for the new year that you want us to be thinking about gene. Um

[00:51:36.96] spk_1:
Let me talk a little bit about diversity equity and inclusion. Since we’ve we’ve talked about that in the

[00:51:42.21] spk_0:
past. You could search jean and I have talked about D. I a bunch of times. But

[00:53:46.05] spk_1:
yeah please. You know I think in combination when we talk about the great migration and how the pandemic might be affecting different populations in different ways that we start to think again about kind of? Well if our charity is doing some some mission and we might not think of that mission as being really reflective of of specific races or or anything like that. Um But could D. E. I. B. Important anyway. And I think that’s where we get to think about. Well if we had more perspectives in our organization, if if we’re lacking some of those perspectives now, for example not having a lot of latin thinks Hispanics or blacks or asian americans on the board or in the leadership group, maybe we’re not really thinking about how our services that we’re delivering are affecting different populations differently. Maybe we’re just sort of providing services but we’re focused on urban centers or urban centers where if we’re center based, our center based is in neighborhoods that are much more accessible to uh white populations versus other populations. So getting different perspectives, even if we think of ourselves as being race neutral, which is kind of a charged term. But I’ll just use it for for these purposes. If we think some of us think of ourselves as race neutral and therefore we don’t have to get involved in the D. E. I work. We want to say, well don’t we care about serving our population in a way that’s kind of fair and not just favoring one segment over other segments or just totally neglecting certain segments of the population because they don’t have the same type of access. Have we ever thought about those things and having diversity can help us think about those things. Um, but it has to be done obviously in an inclusive way, which we’ve talked about and I know we just have a few minutes here, but it’s

[00:54:03.34] spk_0:
sort of it’s touching on, you know, not knowing what you don’t know without without having the perspective of diverse populations on your board, in your leadership, then you don’t know how you’re not serving other non white populations. Yeah. And even when we were perceived by other by by non white populations.

[00:55:32.64] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. And even when we say, well when we look at a group of people and we say diversity, you know, that has one meaning. But sometimes when we just look in our inside our own heads, uh, and when people go unconscious bias, for example, try to think about what that is. It’s like, well if we don’t have the benefit of having different perspectives are being exposed to that all of our lives and none of us have all of the perspectives in our lives. So we were all going to be guilty of some sort of unconscious bias because we just don’t know any better. We we haven’t had other information that would have help develop a sensitivity or understanding or just knowledge of some of the disparities that are out there. So, and and how our organization can be either helping those disparities or hindering them. So just getting a sense of where we’d like to go. I think that can improve employee retention. It can lead us to new areas of employee recruitment and it can make us more relevant as organizations in the future, where if we’re not addressing some of these things, we could find ourselves becoming irrelevant less attractive to future donors, especially younger donors who this is very important to. Um, and so that’s my, my closing thought. Mhm.

[00:55:48.24] spk_0:
All good thoughts for uh, for the new year for 2022, Gene Takagi are legal, legal contributor, Managing attorney of Neo. You’ll find him at nonprofit law blog dot com. He’s also at G attack and you’ll find the firm at neo law group dot com. Gene again, thank you very much. Happy New Year.

[00:55:57.39] spk_1:
Happy New Year. tony

[00:56:47.13] spk_0:
next week. I’m working on it very diligently. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Do you need help with any of those ready projects in 2022? Get them off your plate. A creative producer is claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein. Mm hmm, thank you for that affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for January 10, 2022: Nonprofit Software Vulnerability With log4j

My Guest:

Joshua Peskay: Nonprofit Software Vulnerability With log4j

Happy New Year! There’s a software risk gaining attention and there’s a good chance you’ll need help diagnosing and repairing it. You don’t need to horde gas, cash and toilet paper. Just be aware and do the repair. Joshua Peskay, from RoundTable Technology, sorts it out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:11.84] spk_1:
Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with Producto Sigmoid itis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, non profit software vulnerability with log four J Happy New Year. There’s a software risk gaining attention and there’s a good chance you’ll need help diagnosing and repairing it. You don’t need to hoard gas, cash and toilet paper, just be aware and do the repair Joshua pesky from roundtable technology, sorts it out And Tony’s take two. Thank you jean and Amy sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o.

[00:01:45.14] spk_2:
It’s a pleasure to welcome back Joshua pesky eh he has spent nearly three decades leading technology change for over 1000 nonprofits. It’s especially dedicated to improving cybersecurity in the nonprofit sector and works regularly with at risk organizations to address digital security challenges. He regularly presents and teachers on topics including technology strategy, cybersecurity project and Change management. You’ll find him at Joshua pesky a and the company is roundtable technology, Joshua. Welcome back to nonprofit

[00:01:54.14] spk_3:
radio It is an absolute pleasure to be here. tony Thank you so much for having me on.

[00:01:58.17] spk_2:
Oh, it’s it’s my pleasure to and it’s been the three years or some since, since 18. NTCC

[00:02:05.47] spk_3:
when you were Yeah, which was that the no that was the second to last in person in TC they did the 2019 1 and then it’s been virtual since Yeah,

[00:02:14.24] spk_2:
2nd the last yes

[00:02:16.74] spk_3:
and Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you as well. Happy holidays to you and all your listeners as well.

[00:02:26.24] spk_2:
They’re our listeners today. Not my listen, they’re ours share and share. That’s fair. Our listeners.

[00:02:30.24] spk_1:
Um all right.

[00:02:42.74] spk_2:
Log four J potential security vulnerability that uh, well it is a security vulnerability that nonprofits potentially have give us the, the the 30,000 ft view before we dive in. What, what is this log for? J?

[00:05:43.74] spk_3:
Yeah. So log four J. First of all, on a technical level is a java based, that means the programming language that it’s written in his java and it’s a logging utility that is used predominantly on servers on what are known as Apache servers which run just a huge amount of the things that run on the internet. And this logging utility um, is a little bit of code that developers used to log things that happen on the server and then generate reports or create actions to help them identify bugs or other things that would go on. So that’s what log four J is and it’s very, very widely used. Um, and unfortunately it was disclosed, I think around December 10 was when it became public knowledge that there’s a pretty rough vulnerability in it that allows an attacker to essentially take control of a server that is running log for J in an incredibly simple way. And the organizations like the center for Information security um and the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency or cisa um they use this um terminology called si ves which is common vulnerabilities and exposures I think um I always forget what that stands for. Um yeah, common vulnerabilities and exposures are cbe, they have ratings of like 0 to 10 for how bad it is. So zero is like that’s not too bad. 10 is this is Armageddon and this is a 10 and the reason it’s a 10 okay, is twofold in the most simple way. One is that it’s a actually, I’ll say three. Okay, there’s three reasons. One is that it the vulnerability is the most, the worst thing possible that the exploit of the vulnerability allows complete takeover of the system that is exploited. So if your server is running this log four J utility and I can send it a single packet of data, I can take it over and now do anything I want on that system. So it’s really bad. Second is that at a rough estimate, uh this is running on something on the order of three billion devices um that are connected to the internet in some way. So it’s running on everything. And the third thing is that doing the exploit is incredibly easy. So a 12 year old can go download a little bit of code off the Internet and automate it and go out and find servers that are running along for J and take them over. So incredibly easy to exploit. And the combination of those three things is why all the security experts around the world started freaking out To varying degrees around December 10.

[00:05:55.54] spk_2:
Okay. And and sister calls it a 10 out of 10. Yeah, this is all very interesting. I just saw the movie. Don’t look up with Leonardo Dicaprio jennifer Adams, Meryl Streep.

[00:06:00.49] spk_3:
Someone was just telling you about this movie. I have not seen it yet, but mixed things about it. But yeah,

[00:07:24.24] spk_2:
a comment is coming to earth. Uh, they this comment is categorized as a planet killer. Uh, and the President Meryl Streep is uh, not initially focused, you know, and she, in the first meeting with the two folks who have identified this comment and its trajectory right toward Earth. You know, she decides to sit tight and assess and, and their estimate is that the comment is gonna hit Earth within six months. And it’s a it’s a planet killer. It’ll it’ll make us extinct. But she takes a sit sit tight and assess approach. Yeah. Right. So, so I’m I’m tempted. Um, No, but I don’t wanna I don’t wanna be that like physical about it. Um, but I want to keep things in perspective too. So, but 10 out of 10, you know, from sister. That’s that’s significant that obviously. So. All right. And thank you for explaining why it’s called log four J and what a logging application is. I’ve I’ve sometimes looked at logs and it’s just thousands of lines of activity that could be incremental, like every every couple of seconds or something depending on what the, what the, what the, what the activity is that the log is logging. Um it mean it means nothing to me but

[00:08:14.94] spk_3:
to write essentially a bit of code that runs on servers. Um there’s a really funny XK C D cartoon. I can, I can send you if you want to include in the show notes. Um XK C D is a cartoon by a cartoonist named Randall munroe. And he created this cartoon like two years ago. That’s like uh you know, the entire internet infrastructure. And it’s like this giant kind of house of cards thing, you know that everything is on top of. And then at the very bottom there’s like this one thing that’s holding the whole thing up and it’s like, this is a bit of code written for free and maintained for free by some developer in a small town in Nebraska. And this was like two or three years ago that he wrote this because he’s kind of like noting how so much of the critical infrastructure of the internet are just open source free projects that people maintain in their free time. And this is, this is almost literally that like this is just a utility that someone made a long time ago that no one pays for that’s free to use that was useful and everybody used it. And then it was like, oh, this has a vulnerability. We we now have to fix it and it’s everywhere.

[00:08:29.53] spk_2:
Send me a link to that that drawing because I know the one you’re talking. Another one you’re talking about. I think I saw it on your linkedin.

[00:08:35.54] spk_3:
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:08:37.35] spk_2:
But I want to include it. I’m gonna put it next

[00:08:39.11] spk_3:
to your headshot show in our show notes. Yes.

[00:09:35.04] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications Your 2022 communications plan, lots of projects on their, lots of writing. You can take the biggest projects off your plate and outsource them. Free up staff time to devote to the work. It’s not feasible to outsource the annual report does not need to be done in house just because it always has been, doesn’t mean it has to be. How about research reports, white papers, this stuff can be outsourced. Do you need help with your writing projects in 2022? Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to nonprofit software vulnerability with Log four J and Joshua Pesky EH

[00:09:44.04] spk_2:
And you also said it’s on three billion devices now, potentially. So it’s not just server level. Right? This could be an

[00:12:36.74] spk_3:
individual works problem. Yeah. And so, so here’s where everybody’s gonna start panicking, right? Which is, they’re like, well, if there’s three billion devices go ahead. Yeah well we don’t wanna panic. Right. Right so so people are thinking oh gosh I must have one of those devices or or more more of them in my home. And so the first thing is just you know calm down take a breath. Um But it it’s the most critical things are you know from a prioritization standpoint are things that accept input from the internet. Now this might be something that non technical people would would have difficulty understanding. But the average computer that you’re using or the printer in your home most likely is not accepting input from the internet meaning someone from the internet can’t just go and communicate with your printer or your coffee maker or your amazon Alexa. Right? Because it’s not accepting input from the internet. The way most devices on most networks and in most homes work is it’s a kind of one way invitation traffic rule. So your computer can get data from the internet and in that respect accepts input because the data comes in. But the only way data comes in is when you request it. So when you type google dot com in your web browser your computer is essentially making a request out to the internet and saying I’d like this information sent to me and then the internet sends it. But the internet can’t on its own. No one out of the internet on their own can send data to your computer without you requesting it. Okay that’s most cases, most people wouldn’t know whether their network or their devices are set up to receive input from the internet or not. But mostly they wouldn’t be they would have to have done something specifically to put themselves in a state where their home devices would be accepting data from the internet. But if you have a server that you’re using for any reason in your organization that accepts input from the internet then that server is if that server has this vulnerability on it by the time you’re hearing this podcast, it’s probably compromised already. And the term that cisa and C. I. S. And other security agencies uses assume compromise and that’s the stance they’ve had for several weeks. Now we’re recording this in december 28th. If you’re listening to this, let’s say january 15th. You know you’re and you have a server or more servers that are X. That are accepting input from the internet that have this vulnerability and you’ve done nothing about it at this point. You would assume compromise and that means um you need help. You need someone who knows how to go look at your server and look for indications of compromise and remediate them meaning fix them and undo them so that your server is not compromised. Um You’ll need help at that point. Okay

[00:13:04.94] spk_2:
let’s start with the first of all, thank you for being a calm voice and and explaining things. So you keep yourself out of jargon jail, which I appreciate our listeners appreciate. I I hate to slap you into jargon jail so

[00:13:09.83] spk_3:
but keep me keep me honest on it, tony If I, if I say stuff that’s like, you know, if I’m either being condescending or you know, you know, saying things that you are not, you know, the folks aren’t gonna understand. Call me out all the time. I

[00:13:53.94] spk_2:
will well condescending, I’ll just shut off your mic and we’ll just end perfect. I don’t I don’t tolerate condescension but jargon that’s recoverable. So let’s start with the case. Uh, you know, our listeners are small and midsize nonprofits. Let’s start with the nonprofit that does not have a person devoted to I. T. Let alone a team or you know, doesn’t have a devoted consultant. Do they need a consultant? Can they what what what should the non I. T. Affiliated nonprofit?

[00:17:13.64] spk_3:
Sure. So let’s say you’re you know f 5 to 50 person nonprofit. Maybe even up to 100 staff. Okay. And you have no dedicated I. T. Person, maybe you have an accidental Tuckey maybe of like a you know joe or jane laptop that helps you out with stuff, you know, as a consultant or maybe you work with a small managed service provider. Um someone who helps you with your technical, but let’s say you don’t have any dedicated resource. Okay. Whether you’ll need help or not, depends on whether the directions that I’m going to give you now are something you could do or you have someone in your organization who could do this. So what you would need to do okay is I’m gonna use two big words and then I’ll explain them. Enumerate and remediate. Okay. These are the two most important things to do in order. Enumerate. All right. Or enumeration is the act of figuring out what are all the things we have that may be vulnerable to this exploit. Okay. So I’ll give you just a simple example. We know uh and there’s a link will give you in the resource because again, C I s has a resource of all of the software applications, products, devices that are known to have a log for j vulnerability in that. So let’s say for example, I’m a typical nonprofit and we’re we have out of our 10 staff. We have five of them that use tableau desktop because we purchased it from tech soup and we used Tableau to do some data visualizations. That’s a really common application that lots of nonprofits would have running on their desktop. They probably aren’t updating it that regularly. Could be an older version Tableau which is now owned by Salesforce. So it shows up under Salesforce is listed in this directory of all the vulnerable applications. So you need to if you know that I have Tableau, I need to go to this list I need to search for Tableau and then I need to follow the links to see if the versions of Tableau that I have are in fact vulnerable and if so what I’m supposed to do about that, which is usually going to be to run some patch that updates it. So you need to do that for everything that you have. So the enumeration part is figuring out what’s all the software and devices that we have. Our firewalls are wireless access points are the operating systems that run on our computers, the software that runs in our computers and for many organizations, you’re already saying we have no idea about any of those things. We don’t have that written down anywhere. We don’t and that’s a real problem. And that that problem, you know, when, when you go to best practices about how to govern technology, they’ll say have an inventory, have it current, you know, having automated, so you can just go look online and right, this is why this is one of the reasons why that’s really important. If you don’t have that, this job at this time becomes extremely difficult for you. But if you don’t do it, You have no idea what vulnerabilities you have. It’s like not going in to get a physical in your doctor’s office for 20 years. You know, when you finally do go in, you’re probably gonna find a bunch of things that you maybe would have wished you found out earlier.

[00:17:20.14] spk_2:
Alright. So even before we get to remediation. Enumeration sounds overwhelming.

[00:17:47.04] spk_3:
If that sounds overwhelming then you need help. If there’s some if you have your accidental tech in your organization, you play them that part of this interview and you asked them could you do that? Apologize for sirens coming by? I don’t know how my Yeah, sorry about that. But if that person listens to it and says yes, I can do that. Give me a day or two. I’m pretty sure I can do that. Hey then you can do it if you have them listen to that and they’re like, I absolutely can’t do that. That sounds totally. Then you need help.

[00:18:01.14] spk_2:
Okay, let’s go to remediation then. So once you found out where your potential vulnerabilities are,

[00:18:07.04] spk_3:
yes, we do this

[00:18:08.04] spk_2:
patching. It sounds like in

[00:19:46.94] spk_3:
most cases exactly. So we’re saying okay, we’ve got five people running Tableau desktop, this is the remediation that we need. This is the software that needs to be updated. This is the setting that needs to be changed. I just whatever the instruction says, I need to go do it and check it off my list. So let’s say we have a sonic wall firewall that’s in our office network and that’s still running and we still have people coming to the office. So we need that to work. I need to go to the C. I. S for the enumeration piece um go see if the model of Sonic wall and the software version that we have on it. That’s our firewall. Is that listed here? If it’s not? Yeah. See we’re good. I can check that off the list if it is listed now. I need to follow the link through and see what is the remediation that I’m supposed to do to fix the vulnerability. Right. The enumeration part is I now know it’s vulnerable because it showed up on the list and then I verified it’s and it’s part of why this is hard for non technical people is you know, sonic wall has I don’t know 100 different firewalls that are out there in the world. Maybe more than that. And they’re at all different software versions. Right? And firmware versions. Firmware is like software that sits on a hardware device so it’s typically called firmware. Alright? But it’s just like software, you update it just like any other software and so I need to both see what model of sonic while I have the software or form firmware version that I’m running on it verify whether that sonic wall and that software version are vulnerable. And if so what I need to do to remediated and I need to do that for everything that I have. All right.

[00:19:56.94] spk_2:
Let’s just let’s let’s just get help. You’re just gonna have to if you don’t have someone devoted who can do this like like Joshua said play it back for them. It sounds it sounds as far into them as it does to me. You need you need you need help. You need help. Alright.

[00:21:38.64] spk_3:
And the urgency is like if if you have again public internet facing stuff, if you have if you know or think you have a server that accepts input from the internet, right? Again, if you don’t understand how to even know that, then you need help. If you have no organization that can help you understand that. But if you do know that that is by far your top priority and again, by the time you’re listening to this, if you haven’t done it, assume compromise. It’s it’s probably it’s not that it’s too late but it’s but you’ve probably been compromised already. And so the question is what do we do from that point? Um and what you’d like to do is learn about it before you learn about it from a ransomware demand. Right? Because what’s what you’re worried about is that that compromise will eventually be exploited by what what Attackers are doing is exploiting systems and then putting in persistence meaning a way for them to stay connected to the environment. Once this vulnerability is patched. So if they’ve done that, once you patch the vulnerability, it doesn’t matter because their persistence is already there on the system. Right? So the next thing they do is exploit you by doing a ransomware attack or installing crypto miner software on your server or doing any of a dozen other things to leverage the resource that they have taken over and what you’d like to do is find out that they’re there and remove them before they notify you by sending you a ransom or notice.

[00:21:47.94] spk_2:
Okay, we need help.

[00:22:04.04] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you. Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward our contributors, you know them, I barely I don’t even have to say it right. You know, I have to honor them

[00:22:05.94] spk_2:
to give them tribute,

[00:22:20.34] spk_1:
but you don’t really need me to introduce them. You know that Jean is our legal contributor and that AMY is our technology and social media contributor, you know this and longstanding to boot

[00:22:22.64] spk_2:
jean.

[00:22:36.94] spk_1:
Gene has been with nonprofit radio and me Since the first several shows, it was 2010 kicked off the show in July 2010. And jean was on very soon

[00:22:40.44] spk_2:
after the very first show

[00:24:03.14] spk_1:
early, early early days, AMy sample ward joined at the 100th show. So that would have been July of 2012 50 shows a year. Mhm I’m grateful. You know, they take time each time they’re coming on. You know, they come up with the topics we we exchange messages about them talk a little bit sometimes, but you know, they’re doing the lion’s share of the work and then of course, you know, thinking about how best to explain it and then spending the time to explain it all valuable for you all great value for you. So I am grateful to them for so many years of contributing to nonprofit radio and helping you listeners. Our listeners thank you jean thank you amy That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got barely a butt load more time for nonprofit software vulnerability with Log four J. This week is short less time to get aware, more time to do the repair. And I’m gonna I’m gonna keep pushing this rhyme until I can’t stand to hear it anymore. Let’s continue.

[00:24:15.94] spk_2:
If you have an I. T. Devoted team, then certainly by the time that I’m playing this that that team must know that otherwise you need to fire your team and and get a new

[00:24:30.94] spk_3:
team if you have a if you have a cybersecurity, if you have someone who purports to be a professional information technology provider, right? Whether they are your own staff or whether they are an outsourced provider And they haven’t talked to you about log 4J. And what they’re doing about it then. I don’t believe that they’re serving you very well. I think that’s fair to say,

[00:24:40.54] spk_2:
okay, well we’ll leave it at that. Well let the ceo and executive directors deal with their C.

[00:24:47.85] spk_3:
IOS and

[00:25:13.64] spk_2:
uh I. T. I. T. Managers. Okay now I looked at the uh the cisa cisa again as the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. Um just for context. That’s that that’s the agency that Christopher Krebs came out of in the trump administration and said that 2020 presidential election was the most secure election in the nation’s history. That’s that’s

[00:25:16.31] spk_3:
system the cyber summarily fired but that’s a separate

[00:25:20.66] spk_2:
Yes, he was he was fired but he said yes,

[00:25:24.22] spk_1:
I’m trying to stay away from

[00:25:25.78] spk_3:
I’m a huge fan of So this is

[00:25:29.20] spk_2:
offered not for political purpose. This is offered for context.

[00:25:32.74] spk_3:
Yeah, for context. That is that is set to and there there I believe part of homeland security.

[00:26:13.94] spk_2:
Yes, they are part of the homeland Security agency. Yes. And they, you know, they’re the ones who said 10 out of 10. And in at a press release they said quote, this vulnerability poses a severe risk. They called it a severe risk, end quote. So you can go there, you can go to assistant dot gov and they have a page called Apache log four J vulnerability guidance. You can search that system dot gov. Apache log four J vulnerability guidance. Without me giving you full U R. L. Of the page. Just just search that and they have a couple of valuable links as

[00:26:16.37] spk_3:
well. And and we have links to all that from our website. So if you want to start at round table, just go to our website, search log four J. You’ll find our our blog which we update as we have updates and that has all the links in it as well

[00:26:34.34] spk_2:
and that is roundtable technology dot com if you want to follow Joshua, Joshua pes K.

[00:27:00.44] spk_3:
A. Y. Yeah. Although you’re better off following at round table I. T. I’m I’m not on social as a rule like a little thing but I really don’t touch twitter or facebook really. Ever so twitter or roundtables, twitter is at round table I. T. Um And that’s a better place to follow. That’s where you’ll that’s where you’ll get updates of things. You won’t get anything from following me because I don’t post to twitter hardly hell with Joshua pesky.

[00:27:03.63] spk_2:
Don’t follow at Joshua follow at round table I. T. If you’re following Joshua pesky unfollowed, you’re wasting your you’re hurting your follower,

[00:27:13.44] spk_3:
It’s a follower following it. And uh and I don’t I don’t even know if I get notifications if you try to dm me like that, you know if you want to contact me. It’s Joshua roundtable technology dot com. It’s very easy to find me that way.

[00:27:25.94] spk_2:
Alright. Don’t use twitter, you’re hurting your ratios unfollowed

[00:27:29.49] spk_3:
him. If you ever our apologies to all you social folks, I’m just not a social guy in that regard

[00:27:35.44] spk_2:
now you sound very sociable otherwise just

[00:27:37.52] spk_3:
not really. Yeah. In person on zoom over the phone incredibly social online. Unfortunately not so much.

[00:27:44.57] spk_2:
Okay. And humble as well,

[00:27:46.94] spk_1:
let’s go to

[00:27:52.64] spk_2:
Something that you have on January 27. You have a training coming up, tell us about

[00:30:09.64] spk_3:
that. Oh my gosh we have, it’s a mouthful. So I’ll spit it out the sixth, annual, best free one hour cyber security awareness training ever. My colleague Destiny Bowers, who is an absolute delight and also brilliant and who have worked with for a long time. She and I six years ago started doing awareness trainings with the goal of giving nonprofit organizations and small businesses an opportunity to get all of their staff cyber security awareness training at least once a year for free in a way that would be easily accessible for them, would be fun and would give them some incentives to for their staff to attend. So not only is the training free for literally your entire organization to attend, But we offer prizes over the course of our one hour training, so people have an opportunity to win up to $100. We give out typically $100 gift card, $50 gift card, $25 gift card and then we’ll give out other gift cards or, or prizes throughout the training. But at the end we do a quiz that is competitive. And so if you win the quiz, you have an opportunity to win $100. Uh and an amazon gift card is what we typically give out. And so you can tell your staff your, if you’re a nonprofit leader, hey everybody sign up for this, it’s gonna be a fun training Joshua and Destiny will try to make an entertaining, brisk and enjoyable and you have an opportunity to win prizes. And if you sign up with your organizational email, you know, uh, tony at my nonprofit dot org, then roundtable will actually send the organization a list of everybody that attended the training from their organization. So if you have a regulatory requirement that says, we have to train our staff, you know, with awareness training once a year, this can actually satisfy that regulatory requirement. If you’re in new york, new york shield law requires that you provide awareness training to your staff. So you can literally satisfy this regulatory requirement by having all of your staff attend this training, which again, is free and not only free, but you can tell your staff, hey, you can even win prizes by attending

[00:30:14.94] spk_2:
right. Win big prizes, free, epic, best ever training. More, more humility

[00:30:25.64] spk_3:
from Joshua, pesky. Yeah, again, the humility best ever. Yeah. And we say that every year because of course every year is is just a little bit better than the previous year. So it continues to be the best ever training until someone comes to us and says, you know, actually the training you guys did in 2019 was better than this one. So I don’t think this was the best ever, but no one you would, you

[00:30:47.74] spk_2:
would have the best you, they would be saying that you were one upped by yourself, there wouldn’t be any other,

[00:31:00.14] spk_3:
I I can’t conceive that there could possibly be any other training other than ourselves. I really feel like Myspace of best free one hour cyber security awareness training, I feel like we are really are our only competition. I

[00:31:12.04] spk_2:
hope you know what the word means. There’s a nod to, there’s a nod to Princess Bride inconceivable that there could be another another entity offering, offer anything offering anything comparable in cybersecurity. Alright, so where do we go for this damn thing?

[00:31:20.10] spk_3:
It is, I couldn’t make it any easier for you.

[00:31:22.87] spk_2:
It’s very simple.

[00:31:54.44] spk_3:
Go ahead. Best dot r t t as in roundtable technology dot N.Y.C. as in new york city doesn’t mean you have to be in new york city to attend anywhere in the world you can attend? So best dot r t t dot N.Y.C. If you go to that, you are l you’ll go right to our registration page and send it to all your staff again, have all of them sign up and you can all compete together and compete for prizes, have a good time getting awareness training and we, I love doing it, it’s sort of our gift to the nonprofit community to try to provide this training and make it fun and accessible for everybody and we’ve had so much fun, we keep doing it year after year.

[00:32:07.24] spk_2:
Is there a video, If folks cannot attend

[00:32:23.84] spk_3:
On January 27, sign up as with all things, then a recording will be sent to you the day after and you can take that recording and you can add it to your learning management system. If you have one too you know onboard your new staff whatever you want to do but of course you can’t win the prizes unless you attend the live strengthen

[00:32:28.84] spk_2:
you have to be like you have you must be must be present to

[00:32:32.14] spk_3:
win. Yeah

[00:32:32.67] spk_2:
win the big prizes in the in the epic best ever cyber security training. You’ll have to be present on january 27th 2022. At what time

[00:33:04.54] spk_3:
is one p.m. Eastern time? That’ll be 10 AM pacific time. That’ll be noon Central time if there is anyone out there on mountain time I don’t know where you’re at in regards to daylight savings. I forget if you’re on pacific time or Central time now so you figure that one out. If you’re on Mountain time, I’m sorry I wish I knew people

[00:33:12.74] spk_2:
will know people will be able to extrapolate hopefully from the Eastern time disclosure of of one p.m. eastern

[00:33:54.04] spk_3:
and we’ve even had organizations who we know nothing about you know who aren’t clients of ours reach out to us and say you know they found it on Youtube or whatever and they said can we you know use this recording for our on boarding package for our own staff or do we need to pay you or do you have rights or anything and then I’ll answer that question now for all of your listeners tony go ahead. Free take it, it’s yours. So if you sign up, you don’t attend live, you grab the recording, you chop it up and use it to onboard your new staff for the next year. That makes us super happy. Do it with our blessing. Don’t even have to tell us. Thank you. Okay,

[00:34:22.94] spk_2:
we’ve now spent as much time talking about the january 27th training as we have the subject of the podcast and the video, which is the log four j vulnerability for nonprofits. He’s Joshua pesky. They don’t follow him so I’m not going to repeat his, his twitter handle but follow roundtable at round table i. T. The company is at roundtable technology dot com. He’s Joshua pesky eh, thank you very much,

[00:34:23.61] spk_3:
Joshua tony thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure,

[00:34:26.81] spk_2:
my pleasure as well. Thanks so much.

[00:34:54.64] spk_1:
Next week Legal Outlook for 2022 with our Gene Takagi. If you’re not aware, you cannot repair if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. That’s the end of the aware repair rhyme scheme. It’s now ended

[00:35:31.84] spk_0:
our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that information scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

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Amy Sample Ward: Tech Equity

Amy Sample Ward

NTEN has a new guide on equity for nonprofit technology, to deepen the racial equity conversation. To explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and nonprofits. You know who my guest is. You know who it has to be. Amy Sample Ward, NTEN’s CEO and our technology contributor.

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[00:01:31.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism and white privilege. Tech Equity and 10 has a new guide on equity for non profit technology to deepen the racial equity conversation to explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and non profits. You know who my guest is? You know who it has to be. It’s a me sample ward and tends CEO and our technology contributor response erred by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives, raise more money, change more lives for a free demo and a free month. It’s my pleasure. Always a privilege to welcome Amy Sample Ward to the show. She is our social media and technology contributor and CEO of her most recent co authored book is social Change Anytime everywhere, which is actually running a little old Now you’ve been resting on that laurel for a while.

[00:01:34.73] spk_0:
I was gonna say the same thing. I was gonna say, Gosh, I just looked at the book the other day and saw how many years ago that came out. I think we have to like, we gotta find some other filler sentence for that intro.

[00:01:48.29] spk_1:
Oh, you don’t want to write a new book. We just

[00:01:50.23] spk_0:
What? What? What is there? What would I write a book about? You know?

[00:01:56.14] spk_1:
Oh, you’re a bright person. Oh, there’s more to say about technology. You could go deeper into technology subject, but it’ll be a lot easier if tony-martignetti just changed your intro.

[00:02:06.05] spk_0:
Yeah, then there’s no like writing.

[00:02:16.94] spk_1:
Alright. No six months of writing, collaborating, finding publishers. None of that imagine. Imagine the eat that I could let you off the hook with on Dhe. You’ll find her, of course, at Amy Sample Ward dot or GE and at a me RS ward, the not so recent author. Any simple words?

[00:02:26.34] spk_0:
How you doing

[00:02:26.76] spk_1:
out there? Portland,

[00:03:27.24] spk_0:
You know, after feels, I think it feels kind of moment to moment in Portland. Whether it’s Portland, especially inspired or scared or motivated or ready to just hunker down in the house and never leave again. You know, it’s kind of Ah, a many front situation happening in Portland right now between fires and protests. And cove it, of course, and so many things. So you know, it’s it’s interesting to visit as a team, and 10 has 15 staff and nine of us are in the Portland metro area and six are all over the U. S. So, um, you know, we’ve got staff in Seattle in San Francisco and New York and all these other places, so it feels like every day when staff meet, you know, there’s there’s kind of, like our correspondents out in the field reporting in from all the different the different corners of all these different issues, you know, And it kind of helps everybody feel connected and informed in, like, a real way versus Oh, I saw this random article that got tweeted. You know, it’s like, No, you’re really in that city. What’s it feel like? You know,

[00:04:02.44] spk_1:
you’re the 1st 30 minutes of your staff meetings were probably what’s happening in San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Right in Portland for those outside. Yeah. Um, okay, let’s talk about equity equity and technology

[00:04:06.94] spk_0:
sounds again.

[00:04:11.64] spk_1:
So how did N 10 get into this guide.

[00:06:35.54] spk_0:
Well, since we’re talking about this for the whole show, I’ll tell you the long story version and that is that a number of years ago, actually, in 2016 a tw the end of that year you may remember something of note happened that has shifted some of the direction of our country and we twice a year. All staff have, like, come together in person. If you could remember what what being in person with other people was like on the board also has to in person meetings a year and at the staff and the board in person time. At the end of 2016. We did this kind of like a visioning exercise, But it’s not the type where we were trying to create a new strategic plan envisioning specific toe intend, but mostly saying, like, What do we think is gonna get worse in the sector? What is there anything that’s going to get better? Are the things they’re going to stay the same just like what? What’s the environment we’re working in? And then from there, what kind of role could we play in service to that? Because then 10 really sees our work as community centered in service to the community and the number one opportunity that came out from both the boards work and the staff’s work. Waas being a leader in talking about or putting forward information about that intersection of ethics and equity and what we are doing. We’re using technology tools that are also being used. Bite people holding kids in cages were using technology tools that are making a ton of money off of us were you know, like all of these pieces, that whether we can change those things or not, we can at least name those things and equipped folks to better understand them and talk about them and make decisions to kind of navigate what all those implications are for their staff and for their community. So we started really elevating that type of content in articles and, you know, within the community a lot of NTC sessions on Dhe. Then last year in 2019 it was like, Okay, it’s really time for something that folks could like, you know, print and hold in their hand and say, like there’s a lot of ideas here for me to work with, you know, something more than individual sessions or articles. So we put together really diverse and honestly, just like super cool. Like I loved getting to talk to all these people working group of community members, folks that work, you know, in in building tools and using tools that, you know, all all across the spectrum. There have.

[00:07:23.00] spk_1:
Ah, a lot of the work group members were We’re have been guests. Oh, really? That’s awesome. Raj Aggarwal, Tracy Krohn Zach Tristan Penn who works for in 10 Jason Shim Ruben Sing. And they have all been guests. Yeah,

[00:07:25.21] spk_0:
well, look at you. You’re pulling the right people. You know,

[00:07:28.79] spk_1:
we are. I am. We are. Yes.

[00:07:33.54] spk_0:
So we had this big working group on dhe. Really? Just went through a lot of, you know, idea intake and try and kind of synthesize that and then regroup and talk it through and brainstorm or things. And, you know, I think what ultimately came out is a guide. I know we kind of talked about this before, but just to name why we named it that. Yeah, Report

[00:07:59.24] spk_1:
versus guide. Okay. We’ll talk about that.

[00:08:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, we I mean, we really wanted to create something and make clear that even this thing we’ve put out is probably gonna look different six months from now as the sectors that were working in change as we as organizations changes, people change, you know, there might. We might feel there’s more things we can add to it. There might, because it feels like it becomes the standard and we don’t need to name it anymore, and ADM. Or, you know,

[00:08:32.42] spk_1:
right it sounds artificial to say it’s a report on equity racial inequity in technology used by non profits. E think of the conversation.

[00:09:39.44] spk_0:
The other piece that we really wanted to acknowledge in this is that it is not like it’s not comprehensive. This, like in so far, is like this is not the list. You know, there’s nothing else to dio that would improve equity. Um, and you know, it’s not the things that are included there. We really are like bumpers or directional guides. They don’t tell you what the policy should be, because ultimately the specifics of the policy you’re gonna be based on your organization and your staff. And how many staff do you have? And where do they were? You know, there’s all these other pieces that we don’t know, But we can tell you like Don’t go past this bar, you know, stay within these bumpers on dhe that will get you going in the right direction. So ultimately downloading or reading on the on the website, the Equity guide is just like the jumping off point to a lot of work. It is not already the work for you. You

[00:09:53.84] spk_1:
know, I was very careful to when I was writing the description, I wanted to say to reveal intersecting inequities, not reveal the intersecting inequities again. A ZX If it’s if it’s the finally

[00:10:03.32] spk_0:
the only ones. Yeah,

[00:10:37.54] spk_1:
right. This is all. There’s no more exploration to do now. You’re like like the entire white privilege. Racism, conversation. It’s a It is a It’s a conversation. It’s a journey. You know, Every guest I’m talking about these issues with says the same thing. No, of course. And I know you and I have talked about it. It’s long term. It’s not a check off item, it’s it’s maybe never done, but it Z it’s consciousness. It’s working through policies. It’s having difficult conversations, so there isn’t going to be a definitive guide and definitive report record, right?

[00:11:06.34] spk_0:
You want this to, of course, be used at organizations that maybe haven’t done a lot of investing specific Teoh Mawr Equitable outcomes internally or with their community as well as organizations who feel like they really have, you know, and 10 has really deeply and across the organization invested in equity work. We look at this list and are like shit, man, there’s a whole lot of work to dio, right? Like any organization, No matter how much you’ve already started or gone down that journey, it is forever work. So there’s tons on within the guidelines where we think, Oh, that’s we We’ve done something there. But now that we’ve done something, we can see how much more we could do there, right? We could see what even further down each of those roads could could be for us. So and this has to

[00:11:36.79] spk_1:
be continuing work because, right, it’s just as just the same as your um propagating your values, the organizational values when so when, when racial equity becomes a value, you don’t say your values have an end game. The value of, um, I’m trying to separate it from

[00:11:58.03] spk_0:
before. I mean, I think it’s a really great way to think about it, thinking about racial equity, the value, because all the other values you may have, you know, whatever they are, joy, you know, whatever. You also don’t see them as having a singular definition. You don’t say old equals this. You say, Hey, in this decision we’re trying to make right now, what would bold look like? Bold is our is our value. What would bold look like? Right. So why why wouldn’t we also say the same thing about equity and say, hey, in this situation in this decision, whatever we’re working on, what is that what you look like here? You know?

[00:12:35.84] spk_1:
Right. Okay. I just had the servant Ah ha. Moment around naming equity as a value of the organization on dhe. Therefore, and as you just described, all the other values don’t have in points checkoffs. Yeah, completion statements. Why would racial equity? Uh, okay. It was a bit of a moment for me. Sorry.

[00:12:58.65] spk_0:
I’m glad I could be here. I’m trainable, e.

[00:13:08.54] spk_1:
I swear I’m trainable. All right. Um, so equitable technology. So you talk about, um, inequities that intersect between the non profit community, non profit work and technology. That’s that’s the That’s what we’re trying to elucidate here in this in this guide that the way those two circles intersect

[00:16:42.54] spk_0:
Mhm. Okay, you know, I think that a lot of in equity, especially in equity related to our technology, gets overshadowed. Like every other instance in organizations, we kind of look less at the technology because we’re focused almost exclusively on programs. And so we’re saying, you know, just like we do in budget conversations or anything else. You know, there’s this focus on programs, and so equity looks like how racially diverse are our participants or something like that, which is important. And I’m not saying Don’t look at that. But that’s not the end of what equity means in your organization, especially when we start talking about technology. Because if you’re providing service is or programs to a racially diverse group of community members and you’re using a technology tool, you know you’re using ah database, for example, where they register on your website for those programs. And it requires they enter certain data that some groups either don’t have or feel really untrusting trying to give that data to you. And you’re not thinking that through that right there is already a nen equity, right you are. You are trying to discourage certain people even though you don’t maybe recognize it, or or unconsciously making the decision to do it. You are discouraging groups of folks from participating in your programs just because of that technology decisions, you know, So technology doesn’t operate just visit’s itself. You know, it’s not just the hammer sitting on the shelf. It is what’s allowing you to do your work to communicate with people. Thio Get them registered for that program, whatever it is, And we can’t let go of technology being that instrumental to all of our other decisions. Otherwise, we’re not going to acknowledge, like, really what’s influencing the outcome there. And, of course, then we think about, you know, non profits and the the technology sector. I think one big area that we talked a lot about in the working group WAAS organizations aren’t inclusive in the ways they make decisions, so so often we see non profits, not including community members in decisions about the way the program might run or the way the website might be redesigned. Those air, anything that involves the participants should have have those participants in the same process for the decision and the planning. But organizations so rarely do that. And then, on the technology side, we have a really not diverse group of people building these tools. So we’re having a real lack of inclusivity of any kind in the building of the tool, then being used by an organization whose not including all of the participants in the decision to use it or how to use it. Of course, it’s gonna enter some problems, right? Like there’s no way that that can’t be the outcome here. A very small group of people made it, and now an organization is using it kind of without their eyes open to it.

[00:17:21.84] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help you build relationships with journalists because of a relationship built by turn to the New York community. Trust got to features in the Wall Street Journal. That’s how well it works when you have the existing relationships turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Penna Pento, was an editor at The Chronicle of philanthropy. There are turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to tech equity. So let ZX spend a little time. Let’s let’s talk about the the guide itself. Oh, you you haven’t You haven’t organized for for users and for builders of technology and for funders,

[00:17:36.64] spk_0:
which is profit. Could be all three of those things, right?

[00:17:51.74] spk_1:
It certainly could, Absolutely. If you’re building technology and you make and you provide grants, you you fund fund people or organizations, of course, equitable text. So, you know, there’s a lot of you gotta look for listeners. You just got to get the guide. I mean, waken doom or than weaken then I can with authors, Right? Because those air 250 page books, this is not a 250 page guide. It maybe, maybe maybe in a couple of generations it will be,

[00:18:10.42] spk_0:
but so we can currently Currently I think it’s 27 pages.

[00:18:25.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So you got to get the guide. If you want to do this work, if you wanna be making be centering equity among all your other values as you make your technology decisions as you think about technology and the way it’s used in your organization or purchased in your organization, or maintained or used by those who you’re serving or any of your other constituents. And, you know, you gotta get the guide, obviously, which, uh, the guide we could just get the guided and 10 dot or ge right?

[00:18:46.24] spk_0:
Yep, totally free up on the website. If you go to end 10 or GE and then you click on resource is listed right there.

[00:19:09.44] spk_1:
Okay, so let’s talk about Equitable Tech Not assuming tech expertise. Yeah, training, you know, having equitable policies around use, um, providing money where a lot of organizations wouldn’t typically What? What? What are our concerns here? What do you what? The group

[00:19:17.49] spk_0:
we’ll talk

[00:19:18.24] spk_1:
about here

[00:22:23.24] spk_0:
that, you know, hiring folks whenever they think about having a more diverse staff. Racially diverse staff. They always think thio hiring new people because the place they’re coming from is a staff that isn’t diverse. Writer is predominantly white, and there’s this feeling that, like, well, so we’ll just not change any of our higher being process or change. Our organizational culture will just hire people of color through that process somehow which, if that If that was all that was gonna happen, then you wouldn’t be in the situation, right? Especially when it comes Thio technology roles. And that doesn’t mean that it’s like the I T director, as we talked about before it, you know, communications director is the technology staff person, right? Like they’re making lots of technology decisions all the way across an organization. So recognizing that the folks who have had all kinds of systemic access and encouragement to go to college to graduate from college, to graduate from college with a computer science or some other technical degree like guess who those people are super well resourced white men, right? Like that’s just been the reality we’ve had for decades. So if you’re hiring for roles that use technology and you’re saying that you require a college degree, you require a degree in some specific field that you, um, are expecting folks to apply and already have experience or knowledge of specific products, your you are signaling in that job description. We are looking for that well resourced white man, right, because while of course there’s like exceptions to that reality, that’s not you’re not going to necessarily find the exception in there, right? So what? What’s the difference in saying that someone has a college degree or not like, Are they having to write term papers for their job? Like, I don’t know that that isn’t necessary In 2020. I don’t know that we need to rely on those kind of outdated expectations. Nor do we need to say you already know how to use all the products that we use. Well, did all of your staff know how to use them when you bought them? No. You trained them. Why wouldn’t you train a new person? You know, so really investing in hiring great people who love your mission, want to do your work are from the community you serve and knowing that regardless of the position, regardless of the title, once you’re hired, we give you all the training you need to succeed. Not somehow. We think that you should magically already have all of that training. And that makes you the perfect candidate because the folks who would have had historical like jobs before that also use the same tools. Like all of those things are filtering towards the most privileged people. When you let go of all those expectations and say no, Like, we wanna hire great people who care about our work. And once you’re hired, well, make sure you’re successful. Like who wouldn’t want to work in that environment? A. And B, you’re opening it up for anyone, regardless of what their past jobs, maybe, or what tools those other nonprofits use. Like they could have great experience with databases just because that organization used a different one. You know that that shouldn’t preclude someone from getting a job.

[00:23:03.94] spk_1:
So let’s let’s flush this out more and and explore more. Uh, and I guess, I mean, I feel like I’m playing Devil’s Advocate. I didn’t intend to, but the

[00:23:04.37] spk_0:
devil doesn’t need an advocate. E think the devil’s okay? You just ask what you want to ask

[00:23:51.44] spk_1:
you. Uh, and the report, the guide is, um, even drills down to like, operating systems. You know that. Why would you have to say, Why do you need to say familiarity with or or proficient with the Microsoft Suite, Microsoft Office Suite of Tools? You know, because you could you could train that. I guess I’m thinking a little higher level a college degree college degree. So I’ve, you know, I’ve had this conversation with other guests to it might have even been Raj. Um, so this isn’t the first time, but it’s been a while. Yeah, a college degree. There’s certain skills and expertise that’s presumed from a college degree. So let’s not quibble about whether you know one college degree has means that the person can write and read and speak articulately and different. College degree means it doesn’t. That means they can’t. It doesn’t necessarily mean that. Let’s just assume that there’s that there’s a certain skill and expertise level and

[00:24:17.48] spk_0:
eso can you just skills.

[00:24:18.73] spk_1:
I mean, can you just commemorate the skills that you need without having to say you have to have a college degree to have acquired them?

[00:24:25.84] spk_0:
Right? Totally Skills E. I think that there is

[00:24:29.56] spk_1:
advocate really just flushing it out. So

[00:26:25.14] spk_0:
on there is a time and place. You’re saying you have this specific degree or specific certification because the job you’re applying for is a mental health worker, and you need to be certified in our state social work that keep those instances very specific and very separate from we’re hiding, hiring a communications director. We’re hiring a program manager. What does a college degree make or break for that role? Like I have a bachelor’s degree in literature like I in creative writing and I am the CEO of the technology organization. Like what? What’s the correlation there like? Yes, I’m very proficient at writing emails, but that’s not because I have an English degree. You know, like just name, name those skills. And I think it can also be very. I think organizations try to equate the tiered education system with their organizational tear. So they are reliant internally on a very archaic, perfect pyramid shaped or chart. And so they’re thinking, Well, if we’re gonna hire anyone you know in that leadership tier of the triangle, whether it’s see sweeter, you know, directors, whatever their title structure, as then those folks need to have like a master’s thio. Others people have, you know, only a bachelor. Why, I would argue someone who spent even longer in school versus out in the community or in the work force has less personal expertise, right, because they haven’t been doing it. So to try and like map to that, you know, and that then rolls into Well, then who gets those jobs? Also gets paid more because that work structure is also reliant on saying that people a different titles make a different amount of money

[00:26:38.43] spk_1:
forces the privilege of having

[00:26:40.78] spk_0:
exactly, exactly, exactly, it’s just a permanent circle. You know,

[00:26:47.14] spk_1:
some of the details like providing money for Internet connections, not assuming that people can afford that giving technology, not expecting it to exist when it’s required for work.

[00:27:08.22] spk_0:
Those things have certainly come up with these air like these are so many

[00:27:22.84] spk_1:
things that air sort of innocuous. I mean, like like asking for a college degree. It z well, it’s become so commonplace. Everybody has a cell phone. Everybody can afford Internet and high speed WiFi. But another of those things are true. So

[00:27:36.54] spk_0:
and and just because one has a phone that you have a staff of 10 people and all people when they were hired said they had a smartphone. What smartphone they have, what data plan they have, what, how many minutes they have, even like what functionality is available for That type of phone is probably not the same, and the idea that it’s just on them to use their personal phone. If there’s something that you you need someone to use, then you need to give it to them. We can’t operate in this world where whatever you personally already had or invested in is going to make or break your professional success. That’s that’s not going toe ever end inequitable way

[00:28:19.94] spk_1:
data, data usage you touched on it and you start to touch on the collection part. And while you were talking about collection, I was thinking about the individual questions that you ask, Do you have quickly binary male female? First of all, you need to even ask Do the gender matter. And But how? How narrow are the choices that you’re offering in that lots of other places. What do you What do you want to say about data?

[00:29:10.44] spk_0:
I feel like data is so tricky for organizations, you know, it’s It’s something that I think from, you know, a decade of the greater sector, talking about how organizations need to be data driven and data informed, and you know what data do you have? And you know, there’s just been such a focus in in a kind of a more FIC way that nonprofits need to really care about Jada, that they now really care about data. They don’t know why they care about it or necessarily, like what to do about it. There isn’t.

[00:29:18.64] spk_1:
Well, they’re gonna

[00:29:19.08] spk_0:
mind data practice,

[00:29:21.04] spk_1:
get a lot of data, and then we’re gonna mine it

[00:30:40.24] spk_0:
on. Then we’re gonna use We’re gonna upload it all into this like a I machine, and it’s gonna tell us who’s going to donate to us, who’s going to do whatever. Who’s gonna come to our programs? Yeah, but I think the very first piece, I would say, is not just acknowledging but truly accepting and making all of your decisions around data from the perspective that it is not yours. It is each of those people’s data and you, for a temporary amount of time, have access to it. If that is the place where you can make your decisions from that, you need to be doing everything in your power to protect it. To Stuart it to make sure they know what data you have that it’s clean and updated. Your your relationship to that data changes. And I think even just in that relationship change will get organizations on a better path, you know. And then once you’re in that mindset, it’s so obvious to say, Well, of course, those people should be controlling their data and able to edit it at any time or request that we delete it, you know, and don’t keep the record anymore, like you kind of roll out from there so many of the things that are in the guides just because it’s obvious. Once you have the mindset that it’s not your data,

[00:30:48.70] spk_1:
you know they own it, they own.

[00:31:16.84] spk_0:
And if it’s, there’s of course, you shouldn’t just offer binary options on gender or anything else, right, because you don’t know it’s not your data, so you can’t have already decided what the option is. You know, I think that mindset shift really influences a lot and open the door for you to say, Hey, the outcomes of this program aren’t ours to decide. Participants benefiting from our programs and service is actually get to decide what the outcome of that program was for

[00:31:31.04] spk_1:
them. Yes, that was a very interesting winning the guide that that who sets the metrics for success? What is success in our program or programs. What is it? How is it defined? Right, right,

[00:31:52.74] spk_0:
which I don’t think is is far from ideas that you have certainly thought about whether or not they’re They’re super like widely accepted now, But even in fundraising, right that like someone participating in that in a fundraise e or ah, donation relationship with you like you don’t necessarily have to say. Okay, well, your donating $10 and it’s specifically going to this, But what kind of thank you they want? What kind of recognition they want isn’t for you necessarily to decide it’s Do you want to be recognized? Do you want to be acknowledged? You know? So I think once we remember that as organizations, we are essentially the facilitators of change making. We’re not the ones who owned the data. Who owned the program? Who owned the success, who owned the impact? Like we let go of essentially a lot of a lot of pressure. Teoh be like fortune tellers or something and and future tellers and instead say, we’re facilitating this program. These participants air coming through and look, they’re like five different outcomes that were achieved. And it’s great not every single person had one outcome. They liked it in the same way. They’re gonna use it in the same way, like it’s all humans that were interacting with. And we need to We need to bring back that human focusing.

[00:33:15.84] spk_1:
This is related to funding. So you have a whole. You have several ideas for funders to think about to act on. What do you want to say to our institutional funders?

[00:33:18.74] spk_0:
Uh, you do have some work to dio

[00:33:54.14] spk_1:
time for our last break dot drives dot drives Engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives is the simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. It’s customizable, collaborative, intuitive. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. You know what we’ve got we’ve got but loads more time for tech equity.

[00:36:06.83] spk_0:
I think funders air in a tricky spot because not on Lee do all of the same Inequitable outcomes happen as faras using technology like there’s still a kind of non profit using technology and doing work, so they’ve got, like, all of that section of work to Dio, and they also have the relationship where they are investing in the sector. There’s there’s some shifts that I think need to happen there, especially for funders who are saying that they don’t invest in technology, not investing in technology. Like I think the last six months have shown what has happened to a sector that has been chronically under resourced and technology, and when a lot of organizations or getting donations or grants, that’s a You can’t use this on technology. Guess what? The outcome of that ISS the last six months. It is organizations who cannot continue to function, who I’ve already started closing their divorce, who cannot transition programs online and don’t know don’t have the internal capacity to do that. So we we just can’t any longer have grants that say, you can’t use this on technology like you can’t have a program without the database that stores all the participants in it. Why would the grant for that program not include the database? Right? It’s just ridiculous. Thes air these air, the necessary tools for programs success. They have to be part of every gram on dhe. I think the other piece that we’ve seen, We’re gonna We’ve seen funders try even just over the last number of years. And during the pandemic is we have solved this for you. We’ve chosen the tool, or we’ve chosen the consultant. And now, if you apply for this grant, what you actually get is for free. We’re going to give you this product that we, as the thunder have decided that you all will use. Or we’ve paid for this consultant who’s gonna go set this thing up for all of you. Why in any world would that be a successful strategy? You know, a single technology be known in advance to be the right tool for all this?

[00:36:17.45] spk_1:
Sounds like something that a company would do. And it would be more for a ZX the guy brings out. It would be more for visibility. That impact, right? If

[00:36:25.37] spk_0:
it’s such an easy route, right, its

[00:36:27.80] spk_1:
ability is your goal. Then that’s the I mean, I’m giving an answer to your rhetorical question,

[00:36:47.33] spk_0:
right? I mean, it’s honestly, like a lazy way to approach capacity building. You’re not accepting that there’s nuance in any of this work and that there would be differences and needs and you’re just saying like Here’s here’s one giant hammer. I hope it works for all of your work sites by you

[00:36:57.13] spk_1:
know, what about for technology creators? Way said earlier. Non profit could be. It could very well be a builder of technology as well.

[00:38:10.72] spk_0:
Mhm. Yeah, there are. I think it’s more common than, you know. Maybe the broader us really thinks about how many nonprofits are building technology because it may not even be technology that they sell, or even that they share or distribute. It could just be technology that they built for themselves to do something. But all the same kind of guidelines apply. You know, how are you building tools for unending use or an end community and not including those people in the process? There’s There’s just no way that it’s going that you could never assume it’s gonna work for those folks if those folks are not part of the process. Um, that doesn’t mean you need to have you know, 50 different people trying to be in the code on your website or something that you know, we’re not. We’re not saying that, but there are plenty of ways to include folks in scoping out what you’re gonna build testing it, piloting it, um, you know, making it over time. And the more of those folks that are included, the better the product will be. And and in the world of technology, I mean, success equals adoption. So if you really want it to be adopted, you really want people to successfully use it. Then you better be including them so that when it gets to them, it does work, and it is what they needed to be. Andi, I think

[00:40:12.86] spk_1:
I was talking about this in the early 19 eighties when when I was when I was getting the degree that I don’t use, which is from Carnegie Mellon degree, uh, information systems. I asked Economics and Information system, and we had to develop a creative build a project our fourth year. Our our senior project course was an inventory control system for the maintenance and Facilities Department. So we brought the users in who were not I mean, these guys. This is the guy who runs the inventory room, right? College degree. He wasn’t even white, but he was gonna be the he was gonna be. He’s one of the prime users. We were building this for it was a bunch of white. Mostly, I don’t know if it was mostly male, probably probably Waas, but this mostly male white group, you know, bringing this thing this man of color in tow help teach us how he does his job and how what we’re scoping out is going to impact his his work life on and teaching us, you know, teaching. But so we were talking about this in 1984 you know, bringing users. And that’s just the end user. There’s also the people who are entering data maybe not as users, but or not as recurring users, but as new users as benefit from your program as they check in for the meal or the overnight stay or the bag of uh huh of food. You know what, so right, Inclusive e. I mean, it was just called inclusive design,

[00:41:47.81] spk_0:
right? And how do you compensate those people? How do you acknowledge those people? How do you give them actual power in the process? You know, like again if we if we think about this as we’re just here as the facilitators of this work then it is clear that they should have our They should be able to influence our plans. You know, this isn’t just for the sake of saying we had some user group come in and five of five people and they gave us the feedback. You know, like, this isn’t This isn’t to check the box. This is to say, Hey, we’re the facilitators of change of the process and we’re here for you. So, like, let’s find the path. And I think, of course, that’s, like, so counter and scary to the old white dominant way of managing technology managing organizations, you know, Why would you ever give up control willingly? But I guess I’d argue. Like, what control do you really think you have? You know, like the idea that you’re giving up control. Well, right now, if you’re really trying to, like, hold everything in and make every decision internal. Are you having a tonic success? Like, have you met your mission? Is your mission all done like I don’t know that it’s something you really need to try and hold on to. Because if you can be far more centered on the community, you also have the benefit of Of likely accelerating that impact and more, more rapidly meeting your mission. Right? Because

[00:42:32.30] spk_1:
another word for controllers power. You’re giving up your surrendering power, which which so many people think you know, it’s it’s zero sum. So whatever I lose, you know, whatever I give up, I don’t have any more. But that’s like that’s like finding time. Well, you find the time. No, you make the time. Otherwise the time Or, you know, uh, you know, it’s time. It’s it’s a It’s the same abstract concept. It, um So the surrender of power, they and I would even hesitate to say the delegation of power. But it’s because then it’s

[00:42:36.73] spk_0:
just acknowledging that actually, these other bodies,

[00:42:40.35] spk_1:
these other, like I’m making a sign of across I give you power,

[00:42:44.40] spk_0:
right? No, it’s it’s just technology that everyone already had power. It was just power. You denied before. And now you’re saying, Oh, I’m gonna like actually listen to that You’re not getting ready of any of yours. You’re just technology that everyone else also has power on dhe. What does it look like? All work together and put all of that power towards the same direction.

[00:43:06.77] spk_1:
And then, you know, sometimes you hear well, that’ll be anarchy because they’ll be Everybody will have all

[00:43:13.96] spk_0:
the same power jurisdiction. So

[00:43:38.00] spk_1:
you know, your ruled by Antifa? Uh, that was purely sarcastic. Uh, no. I mean the the authority is still gonna be recognized. It’s not like it’s not like by by giving voice to other folks, you’re no longer the CEO of intent or, you know, you’re no longer people don’t no longer recognize you as the chair of the board. It’s not. It’s not that way. It’s not anarchy. It’s tze just inclusivity,

[00:44:40.39] spk_0:
right? I mean, if you’ve always relied on defining your job, is the CEO as being the only one allowed to make decisions? A. You probably put a ton of pressure on yourself. Be You were likely never the best person to make those decisions. So were they ever that great? Anyway, you know, it’s like remember, you’re just the facility. You’re the facilitator. Is the CEO of your organization being successful? That doesn’t mean you make all the decisions. It means you’re the facilitator. You make sure the right staff were making decisions or the right community members got to be part of things like let go of again. It’s not the power or the control. Just let go of these really outdated definitions of who we need to be in these roles so that we can get out of the way of all of this inequity, right? Like, create or make that space so that people are in this work together because then it’s gonna be better work.

[00:44:56.19] spk_1:
Yeah. Get out of the way of the inequity. No! Get out of the way of the equity. Out of the way you want. You want to stand out of the way so that equity can come through? Yes. Don’t want to get out of the way of the inequity.

[00:45:04.83] spk_0:
Car

[00:45:05.87] spk_1:
inequity would prevail. You want to get out of the way of the equity? Alright, stand clear and the equity will emerge. Okay. Um So what else? Let’s let’s start to wrap up. What else you wanna tell us about the report? That the guide, the guide? I’m sorry. The guy that we didn’t talk about, I

[00:46:16.78] spk_0:
think the thing that I would love to say is, you know, it’s all, um it’s all it’s all practice, right? Like you’re not going toe. Read anything in the guide and have it be like word for word, something you copy paste. And now that’s your policy or anything else. And yeah, and also there’s nothing in there that you’ll that you’ll, you know, be directed or inspired to put forward in your organization. That’s gonna be like quote unquote right the first time. Because there is There is no right on Lee Path in this work, and it’s really committing Thio, the practice of of focusing on equity and trying Thio identify and make clear where they’re inequitable outcomes so that you can again practice how to get to a better place on dhe. In that vein, you know, the working group isn’t done. The working group is still the working group. They are excited to continue working together to find places to add or adjust things in the guide. And we really, really want to hear from organizations who read the guide and, you know, try and do something in their organization with it. They, you know, have ah, internal committee that looks at these ideas and tries to make recommendations or whatever. Like if you try and use this guide. Let us know. Let us know how it goes. If if you’ve got things that you wanna share, we gladly publish them on the in 10. Um, you know, publish an article from you on the intense site. Um, you know, whether it was, like, a learning process or something, that well, whatever it is, we really just want to hear from folks that are using it so that we can find, you know, is there more that we could put in here to help you translate this into your work? Is there Are there places that you’re finding? Ah, lot of challenge that we could address with more guidelines. You know, um, And if you’re really into this and you want to join the working group, you can also let us know, and we’ll just add you to the working group. And you could be part of this work as well. So ultimately, just go use it. Read it, share it with your funders, share it with the vendors you’re considering buying technology from, you know, and be in conversation with us, so that we can kind of learn from how you do it.

[00:48:03.17] spk_1:
And the report explicitly asks for folks to join the working group. Your email AMIA 10 10 or GE.

[00:48:05.77] spk_0:
Yep. So yeah, email me in time.

[00:48:24.94] spk_1:
Did you want me? Oh, you want Meteo? You want me to blank out your email address? No, you don’t mind, folks have no. Yeah, right. Okay. Thank you. Brava! Brava! Uh, in your simple word and 10.

[00:48:26.77] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for elevating this and helping us share it with more folks.

[00:49:31.17] spk_1:
Absolutely a pleasure on Thank you for doing it. Thank you for helping me. Thank you for helping next week Volunteer engagement and artists. Sunday. Yes. There’s someone taking over looking to take over the Sunday after Thanksgiving for artists. Artists Sunday were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Raise more money. Changed more lives. Tony dot mus slash dot for a free demo and a free month. Ah, creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for June 26, 2020: Improv For Culture And Creativity & Tech Policies

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Krystal Ramseur & Graziella Jackson: Improv For Culture And Creativity
A performer and a board member from Washington Improv Theater teach us how improvisation can make your team more creative, confident, supportive and successful. They’re Krystal Ramseur and Graziella Jackson.

 

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:01.54] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with UV itis if I saw that you missed today’s show. Improv for Culture and Creativity. A performer and a board member from Washington Improv Theater Teach us how improvisation can make your team more creative, confident, supportive and successful. They’re Crystal Ramsar and got Cielo Jackson. That’s part of our 20 and TC coverage. Also. Tech policies Karen Graham and Dan Getman want to help your staff avoid scams, malware and inappropriate data handling. Might you have employees using personal phones or computers for work? You especially need to listen. Karen is with Tech Impact, and Dan is at manna. This is also part of our 20 and TC coverage on tony steak, too. Thank you were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO here is improve. Brilliant. Yes. This is the lackluster host that you’re stuck with. Here is improv for culture and creativity. Welcome

[00:02:52.34] spk_3:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know, the conference had to be canceled, but, you know, we’re persevering. Virtually sponsored a 20 NTC by cougar math and software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial, I guess now are Crystal Ram sore. And Graciela Jackson Crystal is chief administrative officer at the National Council of Negro Women. Gretz Yella is partner and CEO at Echo and Co. Um, Also, Crystal is a teacher and performer and board member at Washington Improv Theater, which is most relevant to what we’re talking about today. And Graciela is a board member at UIT Washington and breath theater. Crystal Graciela, Welcome.

[00:02:56.54] spk_4:
Thank you. Glad to be here, but

[00:03:29.90] spk_3:
have you? I’m glad we could work this out. I’m glad you reach well and safe in our nation’s capital area. They were both in D C D c. Proper. Yeah. Yep. Your ah ntc topic is improv. Saves the non profit boosting culture and create team creativity. Um, that’s interesting, because I am on, uh, how does it do that? Oh, even though on, uh, even though I turned to my, uh, even though I’m on Eric’s airplane mode because zoom because we’re special way all the fatal started a few minutes early. That’s why

[00:03:36.28] spk_4:
it’s asking you to improvise. It’s very timely and relevant.

[00:03:46.04] spk_3:
Thank you. And I didn’t do a very good job Called out for what it was. I didn’t even, um so, Crystal, let’s start with you. What? Um why? How come, Ah, improvisation can help us out creatively. Effectively. Team building. What? What about it?

[00:03:57.70] spk_2:
Yeah, So I think one of the biggest things I love about improv is it really pushes you to stay present and stay in the moment. And because in what we’re working with right now and then creating together. So I think a lot of times in business or you’re in meetings and you’re having thoughts about ideas and people like, Well, we tried that idea last year, didn’t work, which was 10 years ago, didn’t work, or if we do that And the people are already thinking of reasons why we can’t do something but right. Improv focuses on No. We’re working with what we have right here in the present. And presently this is this is these are the parameters. Why couldn’t we try this? And the number one rule in improv is Yes. And so if we say yes, how do we then take that idea and continue to build something together? And I think when you just those principles right there make for better working community.

[00:04:58.88] spk_3:
Great yellow. There’s also a confidence building, right? You walk out on the improv stage. I’m taking the example of just two people. You know, their team exercising everything. But you walk out with just two people. One of you has an opening line, and you gotta build a sketch around it for the next 4 to 5 minutes around that fine. And the other part, neither. And the other person doesn’t know what that opening line even

[00:06:27.97] spk_4:
is. Yeah, I It’s interesting. I think there’s an incredible freedom that comes from what Crystal was saying. Presence. Because if you are able to, and I think what improv teaches you to do to just respond to what’s given to you in the moment and say, like, I don’t have to do this huge thing right now. I don’t have toe entertain this gigantic audience. All I have to do is take this thing that my partner contributed as a gift and build on it. You find yourself being able to create things with a lot more freedom with less, much less of the fear that comes from, like worrying about the benefit of your contribution or whether or not you have the perfect or the right answer. And I think one thing that I learned just in taking trainings on this and being a part of the board is you have to be as willing to abandon what you’ve contributed and contribute something new and just be constantly moving forward with creative ideas rather than getting stuck in the mindset of judging what you just created. So it’s kind of separating your creative brain from your critical brain and super important.

[00:06:29.38] spk_3:
That’s interesting that, yeah, you don’t have time to self censor. You’re you’re in front of an audience. You heard a line and you’re supposed to build on it.

[00:06:51.05] spk_4:
Yeah, and there’s something exciting about the active discovery like When you really invest in that thing that you’re building together, you’re probably going to find something that’s even more interesting and funny and entertaining and no crystal. You do this all the time and some of the exercises that you’ve lead, but it’s it’s sort of being willing to just keep going because you’re gonna build something bigger and more exciting and more powerful. If you just don’t stop yourself

[00:07:07.52] spk_3:
and crystal, you keep going. Regardless of what the audience reaction is, right, you don’t you don’t just walk off stage when lying. Number two, you know, didn’t get a huge laugh or wasn’t even supposed to get a laugh. And then you just walk off stage, Say off, you know, screw it.

[00:07:34.63] spk_2:
No. And you’re in this together with your scene partners. I think I love that like we’re out here. Wow, we made this choice to be aliens in the West. Didn’t you know what? That’s where we’re at? And we got to commit to this and we just commit harder to it right and see where it leads.

[00:08:04.28] spk_3:
Robe use that aliens and robots in a cornfield way have to build a robot family. The two of us. Yeah, just, you know, whatever. All right. So, uh, Crystal, were you gonna be doing exercises if you had had the opportunity to do the session? The usually so games or anything?

[00:08:07.00] spk_2:
Yep. Yeah. So we had a feeling good today, So we had a list of games. Really? Toe kind of show. Ah, little bit of intro into improv. Doing some? Yes. And, um What, Graciela has the list?

[00:08:21.55] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, I couldn’t pull it up. I think it started with it, I think,

[00:09:00.63] spk_3:
instead of instead of reading the list. Yeah. Never doing improbably, don’t just talk about what we’re gonna do, right? Sit around like a board, Actually, actually, do we actually dio not talk about? Wouldn’t it be funny if we did this? This would be fun to do that, and so we never do that. So how are we going, Teoh doing improv, the three of us that will, um, some kind of game that will bring home, of course, the lessons that we’re trying to learn in terms of culture, team building, confidence, creativity, efficiency. What are we gonna do? I’m putting you on the spot deliberately.

[00:09:35.34] spk_2:
I don’t want you want Can we plan the vacation? Yes. Like point of it was just telling us. So let’s do this. So I plan a vacation, and we’ll planet with the three of us will go. I can start and we go from me to Graciela to tony, and then we’ll just keep circling like that. So the way we’ll do it is we’re trying to plan a vacation for the three of us. The first line of the sentence when you respond to someone, has to be Yes. And and then you can pushing forward from there. Go. So, uh, wow. I’m so glad that were doing this vacation. I really think we need to go somewhere warm.

[00:09:47.04] spk_4:
Yes, and we need to go somewhere warm immediately.

[00:09:56.44] spk_3:
Yes, and we can. I mean, I’m already packed. Let’s, uh let’s go. I mean, I love the Caribbean of either. Have you been to the Caribbean?

[00:10:04.24] spk_2:
Yes. And I’ve decided I’m just gonna by all of us a new wardrobe while we’re there. So I don’t even aggressively not back. Didn’t even need to pack. Let’s go right now. And I say we have margaritas as soon as we get there.

[00:10:16.78] spk_4:
Yes. And after the margaritas will party a little bit, and then we’ll go snorkeling.

[00:10:23.59] spk_3:
Oh, yes. And, um, since I’m not bring any clothes now, I’m just gonna go snorkeling naked.

[00:10:29.64] spk_2:
Yes, and we’re gonna feel the water, and I bet will make friends with dolphins. Yes, and everybody

[00:10:37.67] spk_4:
will get excited about what we’re doing, and they’ll want to join as well.

[00:10:47.90] spk_3:
Oh, yes. And this party is just gonna get even bigger. Um, we Let’s invite more folks, not just the three of us.

[00:10:50.54] spk_2:
Yes. And let’s blast this to everyone that we’ve ever met and tell them Jump in the water with us. And let’s make this the new party. Yes. And let’s see if

[00:11:03.59] spk_4:
we can get a boat so we can take this party toe other islands.

[00:11:17.27] spk_3:
Oh, yes. And while we’re going between the islands, we could be fishing. There’s, like, weaken dive off the boat on our way to the other island. So the the boat is part of the is part of the

[00:11:20.44] spk_2:
fun. Perfect. There. We owe that. I love that activity.

[00:12:28.40] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As, I said a couple of weeks ago. This shit is hitting a fan fast. It’s still coming down at us. That’s Ah, that’s a mixed metaphor, really, because if it’s hitting the fan that’s not coming down, it’s being blown at us, Uh, coming fast, still raining down on us. It’s coming, blowing, it’s blowing on us. It’s hitting the fan and it’s still blowing on us. That’s better. Anyway, this shit is there. However, it got to us recovered in it. Wegner has a new free webinar on July 1st to explain the latest on paycheck protection program loan forgiveness. You know you need to apply for it. You don’t get it automatically now. What wegner explains to register goto wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is now back to improv for culture and creativity with Crystal Ram sore, a gutsy Ella Jackson.

[00:12:43.74] spk_2:
What we do sometimes when we do it will start the activity bus, saying you first have to plan a vacation by doing no because, yeah, you say No, but and you do it that way or you say no, because and you try to plan a vacation and it’s so hard, right? Because every time you you threw out an idea like let’s get a boat, the person’s like No, because I’m scared of a boat. And so you realize you don’t do anything. You’re likely

[00:12:57.88] spk_3:
roller. The idea is becoming someone’s muller and harder to deal with. Uh, instead of broadening. Okay. Um right. So, crystal, what we learn from what we just did in a couple minutes

[00:13:09.84] spk_2:
when we learn, uh, what happens when we all, like, let ourselves be creative and have the wildest thought that we’ve ever had? Um, you know, if you just were in a meeting and we wanna figure out how we increase this sales numbers, what have Let’s just throw out the wildest thing we’ve ever thought And let’s play with it for a little bit and let’s not shut it down right away. Let’s play around with this idea and see what we can come up with together.

[00:13:39.24] spk_3:
Okay? That’s the other anything you want you want to add?

[00:14:17.63] spk_4:
Yeah, I think that it’s really, really important because I think we’re where organizations, especially non profit teams, get stuck most often because they’re in fast paced, scarce resource environments where you know every dollar you spend on idea is really important. I think that bringing this technique in and allowing yourself some space to say, Let’s just separate the created creation of ideas from the judging of ideas and the vetting ideas and try to get to a place where we are envisioning what’s possible because it’s counter to our culture and and has to be in some ways to be to do that. And so it just allows you toe get past. You know, the 1st 3 or four ideas which are always the ones that are more familiar, safer, probably more likely to be accepted and really set those aside and push yourselves to think in new ways about challenges It doesn’t. There’s no risk in spending the time coming up with ideas. And if you can use these tools to get everybody feeling comfortable on open and curious and creative, and you know you can design the collaboration really well and bring games into it, you end up with this whole inventory of possibilities that then you can take into a more critical process and evaluate and put things like metrics and objectives around them. But chances are people will feel more included in the process. They’ll forget that time is passing cause they’ll have fun. They’ll feel like the quality of their ideas is better, and they’ll feel like they accomplished something that then they can take and turn into something better.

[00:15:19.64] spk_3:
You go and you have some rules around this, right? Like, yeah, we’re not. We’re not judging. We’re not saying that idea sucks. No, it’s it’s, you know, sort of classic brainstorming. Yeah, it’s just the free flow of ideas.

[00:15:33.17] spk_4:
Yeah, the one that that Washington and profit teacher a Washington improv theater teaches us is definitely the concept of yes and that Krystle mentioned. There’s also the concept of Let go, and that’s about just removing your bias and your preconceived notions and the things you’re bringing into the room with. You just let go of all of those notice everything because probably the things that you’re ignoring also have possibility. And we’re so used to not letting go and then Onley noticing what’s important to us. And then I think the last one is used everything. It’s sort of whatever is brought into the room. See if you can apply it to something, even if it’s toe honing. You know your idea. Been proving your idea? I don’t know. Crystal, did I represent those well enough?

[00:16:18.21] spk_2:
Absolutely no, I think, especially when you talk about using everything. That’s the other part about that exercise that I like so much. It’s forcing you to listen to what the person before you just said. Really listen to what they say, because you have to build off of it. So instead of just you’re already thinking of your idea, you can’t think of it yet. You need to wait to hear what that other person says.

[00:16:53.94] spk_4:
Yeah, there’s, Ah, there’s, I think like when you think about what? How work is changing right now. In addition to needing to be open, more collaborative, more agile, getting things out the door faster with less resistance. A lot of that has to do with also being able to take a systems view of things. And if you’re not actually using these techniques and these approach to build an understanding of the scope of what you’re dealing with, so if you’re thinking about like social change or environmental change, the idea is you have tow, envision the system, and if you spend 30 minutes sort of saying this is important No, it’s not. This is important. No, it’s not versus Let’s spend the next hour identifying everything about this system that’s important. Then you can start to, you know, group those things and come up with plans around those things that’s incredibly helpful for strategic planning

[00:17:32.74] spk_3:
or just everything. Not everything that’s important. But everything that impacts. Yeah, that’s around this system. Outside influences, our own influences, our own biases, everything that impacts our work. Yeah, Neville, categorize what we have control over what we don’t What’s what’s significant? What’s thus significant?

[00:18:52.83] spk_4:
Yeah, way had this thing. This organization we’re working with is a large labour union, and they had were working with them on rethinking their Web presence, and they have more than 30,000 pieces of content across lots of websites. And our content strategist did an exercise Gina Marie condo, the Netflix show about just like taking everything out of your closet, putting it in a pile, going through it, cleaning it until you’re everything around you brings you joy. I’ve never seen it, but she created this exercise, which was more or less improv that didn’t get to Let’s talk about all of the content that you’re gonna be losing from this Web presence. Let’s spend time sort of improvising what it’s like to move out of a house. What do you do in what order? And she went through this really detailed activity where people built the experience of what it’s like to move a house, and then they designed that whole process in system. And then they basically compared that to what it’s like to cleanse 30,000 pieces of content. And people immediately understood the process because they are familiar with this challenge of needing to move your house if you’ve been through that before. And so they forgot that what they were doing was planning change management. All they did was Plant was like We’re planning something familiar to them and then borrowing from those concepts to accomplish this big, scary thing that nobody wanted to dio. So I think that’s the power of of this work and creativity and adapting the exercises to your space

[00:19:58.82] spk_3:
Crystal. Let’s talk some about, um, the team building. Like I was saying earlier, you know, you walk out on improv stage two of you. One of these got an opening line from, ah, word that an audience member throughout, and you’re you’re each counting on each other. Yes, and and follow all the other principles of bring everything in that you’ve got. And that’s not censoring yourself, etcetera. But you’re building on each other. It’s confidence building and team building s over the individual and for the team of two, or could be a bigger team. Talk some about that. How improv helps helps that way around team team cohesion.

[00:22:03.74] spk_2:
Yea, I think it also it helps. Trust is the other part of it as well that I think that builds. Um, one of the I worked with a group where we on organization and they’re one of the issues was they had a whole issue around hierarchy. They just hired a bunch of people and let go of a bunch of people. And a lot of people didn’t feel like their work really mattered or that their voice mattered. Um, and so they weren’t sharing their ideas and meetings, and they actually brought a group of improvisers to come and do a whole workshop and the all the exercises that we did, we’re focused on know everybody has a piece in what we’re doing, and it’s vital, and we need everyone to fully, um fully do their work, and then I need to fully accept what you’re giving me, right? So, yeah, if it were walking out on that stage is a blank stages. I always tell people there’s there’s nothing there. So if I say we’re aliens in Oklahoma and you’ve gotta agree that yes, we’re aliens. What does that mean? You know, we can build Bring that into this, um, you got agree where we are, and then part of it is the two of us that are on the stage. But then anyone else on the team, right? Whoever’s gonna edit that scene, whoever is gonna ah, wipe the scenes of them were out of their everybody. That is a part of this team, whether they’re on stage right now or not, are still a part of what’s happening and have a piece to play and how we do this. And I think that’s that same thing. When you talk about an organization, right, you have people that are clearly gonna be the ones to make that final decision. But so everyone has some role that they need to play. Um, in order for everyone to feel that value to and that. And a lot of the work that we do is building that trust that I know I could go out there and say something to you. And I know you’re gonna listen to me. You’re gonna pick it up, and we’re gonna build that together and not you’re gonna shoot my idea down and say we’re not aliens in Oklahoma were just two people stuck in North Carolina. You know what else

[00:22:19.64] spk_3:
can listen to do crystal? Maybe another exercise that they can practice? Oh, are you know, so that they can sort of see the benefits of reap the benefits of the improv principles. Uh, okay. You don’t have the benefit of actually doing the exercises. What else? Ah, what about some of the game folks can play to get some benefits? I get either Christmas or either one.

[00:23:38.94] spk_4:
Well, I can as crystal you’re thinking about some. I think they’re simple. Exercise weaken dio, I think Teoh address very common feelings. One is just feeling blocked or feeling blank when someone asks you a direct question. Because if you’re at all you know, if you don’t think that way, or if you don’t want to take center stage three of a fear of public speaking. The only way to overcome that is to practice, and you can practice in really small ways. So one thing we do with most organizations we go into and and run creative workshops are very simple word exercises where you have a group of people around the circle and you just say a word and you go around the circle on the person next to you says the first word that comes to mind. And it’s about listening and learning about yourself when you’re trying to anticipate what to say because you want to perform well versus really just being in the moment and offering a word. So if I were to say crystal, if Aiken borrow you for a minute and say, um, the word blue

[00:23:42.39] spk_2:
and I’m sorry and you want me to do

[00:23:44.09] spk_4:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does. And I’m putting you on the spot. Um, yeah, I just like to say the word first word that comes to mind I felt so yeah.

[00:23:56.64] spk_2:
Um, green,

[00:24:07.24] spk_4:
uh, read blood. Ah, Death church. Um, community.

[00:24:13.74] spk_2:
Ah, in breath. Fun. Uh, um rafts,

[00:24:55.98] spk_4:
um joy. Family well and so on and it’s It’s funny because even this exercise, the first time we do it with a group of people, let’s say more than five people. Everyone gets nervous and we’re not really doing anything. We’re just saying words that come to mind based on what somebody else said. So if you can just do that a couple times and talk about why is it you know, a little bit of self awareness? Why is it that we feel uncomfortable in the moment? What’s operating behind that is a that fear of contribution. It’s kind of the fight flight freeze impulse when you’re on the spot. So I think and there’s tons of these games available online to use as warm up activities or team building activities. I think we we may have or are gonna have some on our website, which is echo dot Co and, um, and it’s just really important to get in the habit of not just jumping into a meeting, but offering some of these activities to help get a sense of presence, a sense of what we call psychological safety, which is everybody feels like they are open to contribute at without embarrassment or without hanging criticism without judgment. Yeah, without judgment. That’s yeah.

[00:25:49.09] spk_3:
So there’s some resource. Is that eco E C h o dot co. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, that’s crystal you. It’s Ah, bookend. You opened up. Why don’t you just take us out with some final thoughts? Whatever you have, you want clothes

[00:26:26.52] spk_2:
final? That’s OK, so I do. But I do want to share one of my other favorite exercises since we were just talking about it. And I love this one because I taught improv with Children teaching probably people who have taken classes or have actually done a teaching profit, a homeless shelter as well. But my favorite exercise is panel of experts, and it’s so fun because anybody can contribute. And you immediately when we talk about building that trust, building that team, it’s you can have really as many people. But you know, at least three, maybe like 3 to 6.

[00:26:31.35] spk_3:
Let’s plan. All right, we got we’ll go a little bit longer. Like a

[00:26:31.66] spk_6:
minute and 1/2

[00:26:33.33] spk_3:
or so What?

[00:27:30.49] spk_2:
So so panel of experts, each of us, the three of us were doing like a Ted talk here where we have this audience and we pick and you can pick just a Monday ING thing anything. And then we’re gonna be the experts of that thing so we can go around in the same order that we did. And we’re just gonna be It’s as if we’re like I said, giving a Ted talk about whatever it is that we’re talking about. So because I’m just been looking at radio screen, I’m gonna say, um, we’ll talk about that bookshelf behind Graziella. So thank everyone for being here today. Um, we have built the perfect bookshelf for any office. This bookshelf, which was developed by, um, Dr Alvin Smith, um, really made it so it can fit in any area that you needed to fit. It actually adapts to the office to a closet to a bathroom. Really? Wherever you need this book shelf, it morphs into what you needed to be. Graziella, could you talk a little bit about the development of that? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:46.99] spk_4:
So you know, when we were conceiving of this perfect bookshelf, I think what we first asked was, you know, what is it that a bookshelf means to us through the journey of our life? You know, you start off as a young person, you are in your space. You’re looking at a blank wall, and that wall doesn’t mean anything to you. But if you fill it with something that can hold your treasures, your books, it facilitates the space of imagination and really opens up who you are as a person. So it really is more than a bookshelf. It’s a place for you to showcase the aspects of who you want to become through life and also your identity. So that’s kind of where we started. We want it to be exciting. We wanted people to say, That’s not a bookshelf. That’s me. And so that’s kind of what we wanted to bring to the creation of this. Tony, do you want to talk a little bit about kind of how you’ve seen people respond to this bookshelf?

[00:29:59.44] spk_3:
Well, I’m afraid we’re out of time. We Oh, no, I know that’s a violation. Um, yeah, we we brought this. You know, we brought this again as you were saying, Graziella to to be much more than just the physical object. And we’ve We’ve We’ve watched people interact with it. We’ve of course, we’ve surveyed them formally. We’ve actually been observing the way people use the bookshelf the way they interact with it. There’s the There’s the basket feature on the second shelf. That’s that’s pretty much open. That’s open. Anything you want it to be. You can put your junk in there. You can organize it carefully. Or you could put your knitting needles and and balls in there. We’ve seen that, too, of course. The top. We’ve seen people interacting, being more for organizational, since that’s the That’s the part that shows, even if it is in a closet like crystals, saying this could work in a closet as well as a wall. But if it isn’t a closet, you know the top shelf is what people see them first. So they we’ve seen people organized the top better. The middle has been more, um, more personal on. That’s been exciting to see how people have reacted to the different components that we engineered on a very personal, very personal creativity kind of levels.

[00:30:01.10] spk_2:
Yes, sin tony, all of your pictures of your bookshelf.

[00:30:09.40] spk_3:
Alright, Alright. So what? We were out Not no, no censorship building on what others contribute. Taking everything in What? You’re an

[00:30:16.79] spk_2:
expert in it, right? So speaking with confidence about whatever the topic is so right, if we were just in a room, a topic, we could have picked anything. And we are experts on that topic. So you’re speaking with confidence and and still building this together. Mm.

[00:30:36.84] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s leave it there. Do we do about that? Except do we pull everything out that we can about that exercise? Because I don’t want to do it for fun

[00:30:43.96] spk_2:
thing. The only other thing

[00:30:46.57] spk_4:
I’ll say is just opportunities to replace competition with trust Trust in celebration. I think that’s kind of the name of the game. Really helps to just celebrate what people are bringing to the table and use that to inspire better thing.

[00:31:18.14] spk_3:
And that trust to each of you said no said I didn’t. I wasn’t on the wasn’t on the hot spot for this. But you know, each of you lead with lead the next person with a question, your confidence that the person is going to take it on and is not gonna object or or fumble or, you know, but But it carried further. Okay. Excellent. Thank you. very much crystal ramps or chief administrative officer. National Council of Negro Women got CEO Jackson partner and CEO of Echoing Co. And both deeply involved with with the Washington Improv Theater. Thanks so much for being with me. Thank you.

[00:31:38.02] spk_4:
Thank you, Thank you. Thanks for Stoke tony.

[00:31:38.61] spk_3:
Thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC.

[00:33:10.18] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software, Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant non. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you. Um, thanks for being with the show and staying with it through Corona virus and recession and protests against racism. Um, I’m I wanted to keep producing the show. I mean, there’s no there’s no stopping the show. The show has got to go on, but, uh, all the more I think, you know, just because things have been so tumultuous since what, roughly march 23rd or call it mid march. Um, so much confusion change, uh, you know, new routines. The show has got to continue. It has got to be some things that we just can rely on. They’re just gonna be there. And non profit radio is one of them. And so I insist that, uh, not that not that I was thinking about postponing are going on hiatus. But it’s just three assure that Ah, some things remain unchanged. Remained constant. You can count on them, and non profit radio was one of them. And thank you for being consistent, loyal listening audience. Actually, it’s uptick ta little bit. It did like in April and may, you

[00:33:30.85] spk_3:
know, more people spending a lot more time at home, right? Doing everything at home

[00:34:10.00] spk_1:
from exercise to maybe more podcasts. So, um, thank you. So I’m I’m glad and gratified that, uh, audience hasn’t declined. You haven’t gone anywhere. The show still has value for you. That’s very gratifying for me. I thank you for sticking with the show. Still listening, and I’m just glad that you’re still getting good information from it. So thank you. That is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for tech policies with Karen Graham and Dan Getman.

[00:34:42.03] spk_3:
Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and D. C. That’s the 2020 non profit Technology Conference were sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. With me now are Karen Graham and Dan Getman. Karen is director of education and outreach at Tech Impact, and Dan is senior manager of donor relations for manna. Karen Dan. Welcome back, Teoh. Tony-martignetti non profit radio. Well, for you, Karen. Dan. Welcome.

[00:34:48.37] spk_6:
Uh, thank you.

[00:35:32.51] spk_3:
Glad to know that you’re each well and safe Dan in Philadelphia. Karen in Minneapolis. Good to know. I’m glad we could work this out. Your conference topic is establishing tech policies to protect your non profit can. You and I have talked about tech policies in the past and and other things that are, uh, when you were with idea where we’re on the surface boring. And you were happy to call them that, but nonetheless important to your non profit. So would you mind doing the same? Explaining the the importance to what could sound like something very dull?

[00:36:08.17] spk_6:
Sure. Well, I mean, regardless of what kind of situation we’re in, we all know that there are good people that make bad choices. And so having some policy guidelines to help people to anything twice about those choices, um, should provide some guidance for them, as is helpful but also having some clear consequences, I guess, in place or responses when people do make bad choices. That’s also important to know how you’re going to respond If somebody makes a mistake now, especially, I think nonprofits are feeling this in the right. Now, as we’re recording, we’re in the midst of the Corona virus outbreak and ah, lot of dumb profits have gone to remote work. And so they are, I think, thanking their lucky stars or they’re good judgment if they already have developed really good policies for remote work and use of personal devices and things like that. And if they haven’t done that, they’re scrambling right now to try to figure it out.

[00:36:35.50] spk_3:
What are some of those bad choices that you’re talking about?

[00:36:54.98] spk_6:
01 of the things that comes to mind immediately is ah, a kind of choice that will lead to a security vulnerability. Um, you know, just say, sharing data that is his private that contains personally identifiable information with people that really don’t need to have that information, um, downloading it onto a home computer, things like that, Like those kinds of choices can really make an organization vulnerable to that data getting into the wrong hands, Um, or to like, passwords and system access getting into the wrong hands. And I mean, I’m sure we’ve all seen the consequences of that. Um, I have some data on that. They’re the average cost of a data breach, according to a 2019 survey was almost $4 million for a data breach and on profit. They’re just as vulnerable to that, if not more so. Ah, compared to therefore profit piers.

[00:38:00.59] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Certainly we think about organizations in the health care’s our healthcare arena. But even outside health care, there are dates of birth, their credit card numbers. Um, other personally, you might have social security number for some reason. Um, it’s all that personally identifiable information. Oh,

[00:38:00.98] spk_6:
and all of that can compromise people’s privacy. And it also can make an organization really vulnerable to ransomware attacks where the hacker threatens to release that information to the public, or, um or misuse it in some way that can really destroy the organization’s reputation. You’re and be harmful to the people that they serve. So that’s something that that actually non profit are especially vulnerable to because of the kinds of information that they handle. And also because, unfortunately, many nonprofits have not invested in security to the level that they should.

[00:38:38.42] spk_3:
Yeah, all right, Dan, let’s bring you in your in your office. We hear a little background noise. That’s okay,

[00:38:44.71] spk_7:
all right,

[00:38:45.12] spk_3:
It’s not They’re not, I presume they’re not strangers walking through Karen’s home in Minneapolis. So it must be your office. That’s OK.

[00:38:54.15] spk_7:
That would be me. Yeah,

[00:39:05.63] spk_3:
that’s OK. Way have lives. It’s alright. It’s alright. Just, uh, letting people know Karen is secure. There’s nobody walking through her. Her family room, Dan. So manna has been working on ah, comprehensive tech policy or is finished. What? What’s your what’s manage role in in this?

[00:41:25.42] spk_7:
Sure. So, um, we put together ah, bunch of different policies last fall. Um, and I hesitate to say the word finished because they’re always evolving. We need to adapt what we do in the policies that reflect what we dio. Um as things change around us. Uh, for instance, um, we a lot of the policies that we instituted last fall were directed, uh or directly affected, I should say, are like the computers that we have here for years. We all used PCs and much the standard way that anybody else would, Um, And with the advent of cloud based systems like Azure and some other things that we work with tech impact to implement here, um, we were able to get on Ah, more secure, uh, server were able Teoh update a lot of the levels of encryption that we use all things going along with what Karen was talking about in response to not wanting to be vulnerable to attacks to ransom where, um, we deal with individuals who have really serious health concerns there, the client base to whom we deliver meals on a regular basis to and so we work with all kinds of personal information. We also have certainly as a non profit donors who have credit card information and other things that get stored within our systems. And so between medical records and all the things kept their in and credit card information for our donors, You know, we have a couple different avenues that, ah, potential threat, you know, might see if inviting. And so, um, as an organization that works with insurance companies, large insurance companies, we need to be as HIPPA compliant as any medical office would be. Doctor’s office, hospital system. Um and so we’ve gone through some work with, um, hip, a consultant. We’ve worked directly with Tech Impact, who also does our day to day tech support here to really, really develop well thought out policies as well as all the software sort of implementations that went along with it. So again, I hesitate to say that we’re finished because we’re always looking at ways to improve how tightened up weaken be, but, um, in terms of where we’re at today Ah, the large bulk of that was completed last fall.

[00:42:05.21] spk_3:
There’s something interesting you the director of our senior manager party. I just demoted you. Senior manager of donor relations. Not not I t, uh, that sound like the tech policy position at manner. But here you are.

[00:43:23.56] spk_7:
So it’s interesting. Yeah. Um, I think many non profit, uh, will probably understand. We use the phrase were a lot of hats, You know, that many nonprofits are smaller staffed. You know, we don’t have, uh, the budgetary capabilities Have an in house I t department. Um, and so for years, our office admin served in that role Still doesn’t in many cases, if your if your outlook isn’t working, if your internet’s down, that’s what you go to. But, um, as we were growing these contract relationships and learning that there were different levels of security that we could, you know, reach for, um we needed somebody in house who had both a cursory understanding of the tech side of things and also enough understanding and ability to work with our nutrition team Teoh, to sort of understand the HIPPA ramifications of it all. Um, and it just so happened that that role probably would have fallen to the office admin Who does does a lot of the other day to day stuff. However, uh, he went out on medical leave, and so I was sort of tasked with this being the next in line in terms of my, uh, computer savvy, I guess

[00:43:24.72] spk_4:
we can

[00:43:24.97] spk_7:
call it her.

[00:43:26.44] spk_2:
So

[00:43:27.10] spk_7:
yeah, sort of a non profit thing that you know, you have a skill set that you’re able to help with. It may not be the thing I’m trained in or went to school for by any means, but I understand it may be better than the next person. And so that’s how that kind of works out

[00:44:17.99] spk_1:
understand Time for our last break turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know this turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field when there’s a time for you to be heard and to show your expertise. Turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. The red Turn hyphen two dot ceo We’ve got but loads more time for tech policies from 20 and TC. We

[00:44:33.13] spk_3:
could also consider good tech policy to be a part of donor relations. A part of stewardship. Actually, you’re part of what you’re doing. What I don’t mean you at manner. But part of what an organization is doing is protecting donor information from the can absolutely kinds of attacks that you and Karen both talking about So you could consider it on a new element of donor relations on goods

[00:44:49.79] spk_4:
store.

[00:44:50.21] spk_7:
And and part of it came back to, you know, in the donor relations side of things I oversee, uh, our database R c r m Here, um, and so again, understanding those systems, um, knowing that we treat and I’ve always treated all information confidentially, we don’t share lists with people. We don’t sell our donors information to anyone, Certainly whenever that with any client information. But from my sort of day to day rolls perspective, you know, we treat all that data, um, the same with the same level of integrity that we would with our client data on the other side

[00:45:24.94] spk_2:
of

[00:45:25.01] spk_7:
the building. And so, um, yeah, I think that’s kind of where that come from.

[00:45:29.65] spk_1:
Um,

[00:46:16.42] spk_6:
well, I’ve been kind of listening to what Dan saying, and even what I said when we opened up here, where we’re focusing on technology policies to reduce the organization’s risk or, you know, to kind of like looking at it from the perspective of where the bad things that could happen And how do we present those, and I just want o make the point that that’s not all that policies air for right there. Also, to give people guidance on positive things, they can dio um, So at my organization, just today we were talking about social media policy, and that’s something I’m sure that Dan probably deals with two. I’m doing donor management and fundraising and communication. Um, you know, you don’t want to just wag your finger at your staff and say you can’t do this. You can’t do that. Especially when it comes to social media. You want to give them some tools and some permission to be able to do things that are positive and are gonna benefit the organization. So that’s always an important thing. To remember with policy is to find that balance between the things that are restricting people from doing things that are really gonna be harmful and the things that are empowering them to do things that are gonna be helpful.

[00:46:45.78] spk_3:
Karen, what do you see? Some sometimes or most commonly I should say, as the impetus for, uh, revising oh, are creating when they don’t exist. It all a new a new set of tech policies.

[00:47:02.07] spk_6:
Probably two things, and one, unfortunately, is something bad happens. And then somebody says, Oh, we should have had a policy about this. You can imagine how those scenarios play out. But the other thing is sometimes, um, change in staff or a staff member who has listened to a podcast or, um, they have attended a conference or somehow been exposed to thes ideas and realized Oh, shoot. My organization doesn’t have the right policies in place. We should probably pay attention to this.

[00:47:32.98] spk_3:
Okay. And, uh, since you’re the consultant, why don’t you get us into this process now? How do we begin what we need to think about who? The stakeholders? I need to be involved before we can actually start typing policy or thinking about policy.

[00:48:49.83] spk_6:
Yeah, I can. I can share a few things with you. Um, first, the, um, there are six basic types of policies that most organizations should have, and so acceptable use is one. And what that means is it’s a guide to the overall use of your networks and technology equipment. That’s acceptable use policy. Um, 2nd 1 is security, and that’s really about protecting your data and your systems from from security breaches. Um, 3rd 1 is bring your own device policy, which has considerations for employees using personal devices to do their work, whether they’re in the workplace. Or, um, right now, a lot of people are using personal devices that they have at home toe access, corporate data, so to speak, or things that are owned by the non profit. So those were the 1st 3 and then the 4th 1 is an incident response and disaster recovery policy or in a plan, that’s what you need to do if something goes wrong. Um, 5th 1 is remote work kind of other considerations for employees who are working outside the office. Um, and then the final one is about social media and digital communication guidelines for what you can and should do and what’s restricted there.

[00:49:06.82] spk_3:
Okay, All right. So those there are sort of framework for our policy, those six types and and who should be involved in the process of creating these

[00:49:36.27] spk_6:
Well, I think that’s a great question to ask Dan because he had some experience with involving the right people in the organization. But my advice would be, um, you know, there’s a saying that a lot of advocacy organizations are organizing groups used nothing about us without us. And I think that applies here. Um, as well. It’s If a policy is going to affect someone, then that person should probably have a chance to give some input in the policy. Otherwise, you’re going to run into a lot of problems with people not following the policy, just working around it. And then it’s not doing anybody any good.

[00:49:56.47] spk_3:
Yeah, because then it’s a policy that was foisted on on users rather than them being part of the collaborative team that develops it,

[00:50:04.93] spk_6:
right? So certainly an executive director of board of directors in a non profit has some responsibility for reviewing policies and making sure that the right things are in place. But that’s not enough. It also has to involve the people that are covered by the policy.

[00:50:18.46] spk_3:
Yeah, the end users. How about you, Dan View? Did you follow Karen’s advice? Were you ah, compliant client? Or were you not?

[00:51:38.86] spk_7:
I’d like to think so. Um, I I was involved from day one in terms of this stuff. Ah, And to Karen’s point. Yeah, we had everyone that almost every level in some capacity involved in this process are when we first sat down, uh, with some of Karen’s coworkers Attack impact. You know, we had in the room myself the head of our nutrition department, our CEO, uh, the head of our policy on my policy, I mean, uh, lawmaking policy, But ahead of our policy, uh, department and a ZX Well, a czar PR person, our office admin. So I mean, it was kind of deer point. We had somebody from every aspect of the organization who would be either affected by the policies being put in place or be the person who is actually implementing the policies themselves on dhe. Then we brought in, which was a tremendous helping to be, quite honestly, couldn’t have done it without them. We brought in an outside consultant whose work eyes in the field in our key, specifically in ah, tech security and has a lot of background again dealing with the folks that we work with being medical record based. Um they came from ah background with ah consultant work dealing with hip a related issues specifically, and so we have them come in and do ah full risk assessment to go side by side with the risk assessment that tech impact did. Um and we had a really nice look at, uh what what policies do we have? What policies do we need and what things are already in place? And where can we, you know, make some tweaks to get better? And so it really was very collaborative effort, both internally and in terms of the two external groups that

[00:52:18.51] spk_4:
we worked

[00:52:18.92] spk_7:
with. But we needed every voice in that room

[00:52:24.75] spk_3:
Any difficulty, Dan getting buy in from leadership t this for this project?

[00:53:03.47] spk_7:
So no, we’re fortunate, actually, that we have ah CEO who is one very progressive and and likes to be at the forefront of all aspects of, you know, our business. Eso that includes technology again. We’ve always we’ve been around 30 years, so dealing with our client records and the hip related issues. There has always been something that mattered to us. Um and so this was seen as an opportunity to improve upon efforts that were already making It was not seen internally as Hey, this is a bad thing in the world. We all got to go through this process to fix something. It was really more, um we’re doing a good job, but we can do better than what we’re doing, and we’re gonna strive to do better than what we’re doing. And so our CEO didn’t require any real pushing. She was actually the one pushing, pushing all of us.

[00:53:57.44] spk_3:
OK, OK, Karen, we don’t have time to dio in depth on all the six different policies that you that you mentioned. But since we’re in a time now, when a lot of people are using their own personal devices, why don’t we focus on that policy? The personal use of devices for work? What I you know, I defer to you. How do we like what questions should we be asking or what policies should we have in place? What’s the best way to approach that one?

[00:55:44.69] spk_6:
Sure. Um, here’s some some of the questions you could think about for that, um, one is, um usually, organizations start with who is allowed to use those devices and in the situation we find ourselves in right now, I think it’s almost everyone has allowed to use personal devices, but maybe not. I mean, maybe if you’re a non profit that is allowing people to work from home either indefinitely or just for a defined period of time. Maybe you want them to Onley be allowed to do their work on ah organization issued device. Maybe you will provide them with a laptop or a tablet or whatever it is to take home with them, and they’re only going to do it there. And then you know it’s important than to issue some guidelines that let them know your home computer is off limits for conducting your work. So that’s an example. But then it’s not just computers. What about their camera? You know, if they’re doing videoconferencing, if it doesn’t have a built in camera, can they use their own? Or do they have to get one from the organization? What about a headset? What about like all that extra stuff? And then, if they are using their own devices, what kind of support do you offer for that? If something breaks, you fix it. If they have a problem with their settings on the computer, are you responsible as an organization for helping them with that? Um, what about like antivirus software on their home computer. Are you now going to pay for the cost of that? Or are you gonna pay for the cost of their cellphone, which they’re now using to take calls? Because the office phone is being forwarded to their cell phone. So there’s a lot of a lot of different issues there. Um, 11 more thing that we find, especially with mobile devices, is like, What kind of encryption do you and require, um, and locks and authentication and, like different kinds of security measures that can be installed on a mobile device? Um, it’s not necessarily a case where more is better. You have to find the right balance between convenience and security there.

[00:56:11.33] spk_3:
What about use of other people’s use of the of that same equipment, you know, when they’re home? If is that a family laptop that the person is using for work and then night their kids do their homework on it? I

[00:57:01.27] spk_6:
mean, Well, yeah, I think that’s the reality for a lot of people right now. So, um, it’s I personally wouldn’t worry too much about ah criminal breaking into my home logging into my computer. Um, that has a weaker password at home than the computer that I used for work. Um, and you know, getting into my organizations, data or whatever. I just really don’t think the odds of that very high, but, um, but it’s more like, um, maybe through email, maybe my kids open a phishing email and they click on something. And then pretty soon, my computer’s infected on dhe. I’ve also got stuff stored on that computer that I don’t want to get into somebody else’s hands. So that’s where the vulnerability of shared devices probably is. Most important. I don’t know if you would agree with that, Dan, or if you’ve got through that with your organization

[00:57:11.55] spk_3:
damn before we before we. I do want to go to you immediately, Dan, but I want to make clear that we now know the password to Karen’s home computer is 12345

[00:59:56.18] spk_7:
Yeah, I think if the really important one and we did go through this in terms of a lot of the policies that we’re putting in place, we have ah mixed set of media for this organization, um, desktop and laptop, and for those with laptops taken, certainly take them out of the building, and so there’s no safeguards there needs to be in place. Um, but the one that we really found I don’t want to say a stumbling block, but it’s something that I think organisations should keep in mind when they’re when they’re thinking about this kind of stuff. So many of us now have smartphones, and they’re great and they can do all these different things. Um, the one thing that really got under a fair amount of people skin here was the restrictions that had to be put in place for, uh, one’s own mobile device. And specifically, what we dealt with was, uh in the case of our email client, um, outlook is great and can be controlled with a lot of the policies that we put in place with tech impact. However, uh, if you have an iPhone or an android and you do not have the outlook app if you just use the native mail app on your phone, um that is outside the scope and the control of a system like in June or Azure. And, uh so what we had issues with were people wanting Teoh, you know, use the app that they’ve been using for the last 10 years, Um, and having to switch to something that was considerably more restrictive. Um, and it’s one of those things that sort of the growing pains in this process. But ah was absolutely necessary for us to be ableto you know, rain in some of the control on the data that’s being used. Um, and to Karen’s point with, you know, kids clicking on an email, Um, you know, we have it set where, As an example, if I pull up an email on my phone, I can’t screenshot it. I can’t save whatever’s in it to my phone. I mean, we have everything as locked down beyond you can read it and reply to it, and that’s it. Um, but just just knowing that some of those those things they’re out there in terms of the restrictions in terms of the necessity to have them be protected. If I lost my phone and someone got into it, they could seemingly access information. I wouldn’t want people to see, you know, from a work standpoint. So I think those are things that we take for granted. Um, having these wonderful devices that we carry around every day, but they’re really, um they are portals to our jobs into our lives and security that needs to go with that is it can’t be understated. And that was definitely something that we hadn’t thought about quite honestly before.

[01:00:07.86] spk_4:
This all happened.

[01:00:16.07] spk_3:
Making compromises for company. Absolutely ization security. Karen, we’re gonna wrap up. Does this tech impact have any resource Is, um, better related to detect policies that that folks can access on the website?

[01:01:06.21] spk_6:
Of course, we dio with a lot. So I’m at Tech Impact out, or GE, we have a number of resource is about policies and security, which we’ve been touching on here, too, including free consultations for people who just have a question that they want to ask of a professional. You can request that on our website. Um so about that tech impact that or ge and then on ideal wear dot or ge, which is also a site that is heart of our organization. That’s a resource site. And so we have a policy workbook on there that will help you, like, step by step, develop each of the different policies that I mentioned earlier and also a number of other knowledge. Resource is, we’ve got a course right now to that. We just finished a live version of it and the recordings available at Ideal where DOT or GE, if people want to really take a deep dive into this

[01:01:20.01] spk_1:
outstanding thank you. And, uh, as former CEO of Idea where I know you’re well acquainted with the with the offerings there. That’s

[01:01:38.21] spk_3:
Karen Graham, director of education and outreach, a Tech Impact, and Dan Getman, senior manager of donor relations at Manna. Thanks to each of you for sharing thanks so much and, uh, and stay safe. And thanks to you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC

[01:02:21.65] spk_1:
next week. More from 20 NTC. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our

[01:03:00.45] spk_0:
creative producers Claire Meyer Huh Sam Liebowitz managed stream shows Social media is by serving Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy on this Music is by Scots with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great