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Nonprofit Radio for February 7, 2022: Influencing Young America To Act

Derrick Feldmann: Influencing Young America To Act

Derrick Feldmann returns to discuss the takeaways of this study, revealing the causes, actions and influences that move young Americans.

 

 

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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:12.93] spk_1:
non profit

[00:00:13.60] spk_0:
radio

[00:01:47.34] spk_1:
big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95%,, I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me, I’d come down with paraphernalia MMA if you lit a candle to the idea that you missed this week’s show, influencing young America to act. Derrick Feldmann returns to discuss the takeaways of this study, revealing the causes, actions and influences that move young americans On Tony’s take two. Thank you for indulging me. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O What a pleasure to welcome back after uh probably too long. Too long a hiatus. Derrick Feldmann, he is a sought after speaker, researcher and advisor for causes and companies on social movements and issue engagement. He leads the research team for influencing young America to act The study of how young adults 18-30 are influenced by and influence others to support social issues and movements. It’s that study that brings him back to nonprofit radio he’s at Derrick Feldmann two Rs and two ends. Well there’s two es also but they’re not these are not co located there, they’re spread across these two names. Eric welcome back to nonprofit radio

[00:01:49.64] spk_2:
tony thanks so much, I appreciate that on the name. You know the two Rs and two ends can throw a lot of people quite honestly,

[00:01:55.54] spk_1:
yes, I don’t want listeners following the wrong Derrick Feldmann, he’s whoever he is. Uh

[00:02:11.04] spk_2:
well you would be shocked there is another one and my mom will ever this person actually, there is a Derrick Feldmann, that is a very well recognized medical professional in europe actually. And so um my mom every once in a while asked me if I’m into medicine,

[00:02:19.21] spk_1:
so she wishes all these years, Why didn’t you be a doctor?

[00:02:25.11] spk_2:
Exactly.

[00:02:28.05] spk_1:
Could have been better than him.

[00:02:30.15] spk_2:
Exactly. My

[00:02:37.24] spk_1:
son, he could have been a doctor. Alright. Chosen entrepreneurship. Alright. Um congratulations on the study. I know you do this annually. Congratulations on the 2021 study coming out.

[00:02:43.34] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. I actually, we do this four times a year and the one that we’re gonna be talking about today is sort of a compilation and including the last one in this in December, which is 2021. So yeah, thank you.

[00:02:56.07] spk_1:
You do it seasonally. You’ve got spring, summer, fall and winter.

[00:03:04.94] spk_2:
We do actually. That was born out of the Covid times. We were, we were um We were doing a lot of quantum qual during when COVID in March 2020 and we just sort of stayed with it to be quite honest. It changed a lot of our research approach.

[00:03:35.74] spk_1:
All right, so let’s let’s go to the study. Um I don’t know, it must be the New Year or something and I’m feeling generous with guests. Usually I’m very dictatorial, We’re gonna talk about this and then this and then that and then I’ll give you a chance then if there’s time, what would doug guests like to talk about? But I don’t know, maybe like I said, maybe it’s a new year. I don’t know what you you’re immersed in this, you’re the lead researcher, what’s your headline for the for the study?

[00:06:00.24] spk_2:
Uh you know, I of course have the chance to look at across the whole year. So while there’s some good stuff at the end of the year, I think the number one thing that we are seeing is and I I I have to unfortunately be the bad bearer of news at times around these moments. These issues and movements that say started the pandemic have really sort of lessened a little bit in their participation and interest. And I don’t say that just because of because of our december data, but I say that looking across from 2020 20, and two where we are today. And so things like social justice or racial justice, those have decreased the participation in our panels in general. And I mentioned this a lot in um the upfront of this year’s sort of compilation report which is around moments that we have in general and that once these moments go away maintaining engagement still is a hard thing to do. It’s still is and if you look at in in in this kind of study versus all the other studies I’ve led in the past, we always look at the influences to one’s behavior, right? So it’s not just what did somebody do, but who told you what influenced you? How’d you get there as well? And it follows the cultural media, popular culture narratives and developments that happen in society. And I think this is really really important for movement leaders and and cause leaders, C E. O. S and um even brands that are working on social issues is, you know, if you’re dedicated to your issue, which all of them are, you know, what are you going to do when you’re not in the headlines and when you’re not upfront and everything else? And that’s the hardest part, especially with an audience that’s very digitally native, very engaged in media and so forth. So I think that that was probably, you know, one of the things that I’ve continued, we’ve continued to track and kind of see. Um one other, one other thing to that we I think it’s important to understand one social issue engagement in context with all the other things that they do. I see. And you know, I I’ve been a researcher focusing on young people now for 15 years and I’ll see studies that talk about young adults.

[00:06:03.51] spk_1:
You’ve been doing this work since you were 12,

[00:08:19.94] spk_2:
practically right. Um you know, when we look at these studies today, I’ll often find an organization would come to me and say we did our own research on what young americans want or something. And we found out that they’re really interested in our programs? We found out that they’re really interested in these kinds of things and so forth. And I asked them, I said I want you to share with me your questions and when they share those questions with me Tony I see as if we’re asking about social issues in a complete vacuum constantly and the person who takes those surveys will consistently say the ideal state. We always do that. That’s the ideal, right? That’s the path of least resistance are our brain goes into. And one of the things that’s very apparent in our studies is that we move beyond just social issues and triangulate that with other things that are really going on. And I will say this over the since we’ve started tracking things heavier and deeper when we started this research project four or five years ago to where we are now. And even through the pandemic, there is one consistent rising issue in addition to their social issues and that’s mental health and it has not slowed. It has increased over time, not only because our panels and are individuals who are in them are affected, but they know a lot of peers and young people who are also affected. And I I think this is important because we all want as leaders, everybody to do everything for us and with us in some way, shape or form that’s the constituency side. Let’s get everybody active for the issue help our beneficiaries and so forth. But what happens when the constituents are also challenged with many other things? And where does our issues sit in that? And I think we have to recognize the challenges, especially if you’re working with younger demographics like 18 to 30 year old, the challenges that they face in addition to the desires that you want them to to hopefully perform. And so we did a special call out in this one because it’s just been consistently concerning and rising not only as just being affected by it, but also one that they see should be addressed as well as a larger social issue within America. So I, I bring those 23 points to to hear because I think it’s it’s a time we must recognize that as leaders as well.

[00:09:30.04] spk_1:
And we’re going to talk some about the mental health issue, how it’s how it’s evolved and how consistent it’s been. Um, I think bearing out your, your first point about moments and shifts in shifts in interest. I thought very interesting Across 2021, um, animal rights, spring summer and fall, We’re the # one issue of interest. But then in winter they dropped off. They weren’t even one through three and, and civil rights took the place of of number one in the, in the winter, but but also interesting in that is that, you know, all three of those are our, well, the concern for others just shifted from animals to in the first three quarters to two people in the, in the fourth quarter, but also civil, but civil rights Was civil rights remained in the top three all year. It’s just in the fourth quarter it became the number one, the number one area of interest, but civil rights was the only one that was throughout the whole year.

[00:11:49.64] spk_2:
Exactly, exactly. Now I will say what’s interesting Tony in addition to civil rights and we were shocked about animals. If you actually look at 2022 now, animals and animal rights is always no matter how we randomly, by the way, we randomize the list for every person that’s taking it and our panels were like, there’s no way animal rights is gonna come out and it’s surely it does every, every single time. So I want to go back to something that we started to see, I will say probably latter part of 2020 into the, into 2021 and but it shifted a little bit further now and that is, is that a lot of the social issues that they were being engaged with were very personal issues as well. Um, in 2020 and into 2021, we would consistently see things like wages, jobs, employment issues that they were wanted, that where they were going with it, health, by the way, healthcare and premiums and health in general has always been an issue of interest And um, and into 2021, it was kind of there, but not it was, you’re seeing the top three, but it was in the top 45 and six. And she’s kind of hovering around there and when we see civil rights and those kinds of pieces coming in, we’re always looking for were there moments as well and that was kind of going back to that there would be maybe heightened things that occurred in moments or that there was something in the media, there was something that in culture that was also happening. Um, but what’s, what’s intriguing about, say, a gun safety or gun rights coming in there are the conversations, is, is that some of those will be momentarily types pieces when I think about it, I look at it and say, what are the things that that young americans are personally being affected by and how has that changed? And when I see things like healthcare still getting in there and wages and employment in the top five and six, that’s an issue when I look at things in which that they may personally, but also just social issues in general, animals, civil rights and sort of the gun space tends to be consistent over the last couple of years and it wavers now in october Climate was in the top five, but again, I only listen to the top three

[00:11:53.98] spk_1:
climate was I was gonna, I was gonna ask about climate, where where’s because I’m, you know, I’m seeing the top three in the,

[00:12:01.56] spk_2:
in the report,

[00:12:02.31] spk_1:
where’s where’s where’s climate change? The climate crisis?

[00:12:05.24] spk_2:
Because yeah, the expectation would be this population is very interested in reminder

[00:12:11.31] spk_1:
Reminder. Listen, we’re talking about 18-30 year olds, exactly. They’re gonna be around blowing, they’re gonna be around a long time.

[00:12:26.84] spk_2:
And you know, I was at cop 26. So we, and by the way, every quarter besides our regular battery of questions that we have, we asked, um, questions that are most likely going to happen or moments and things that are gonna happen in that quarter. So in october when we fielded, we focused on climate. So for anybody who’s in the environmental space, make sure you look at the, the october release of last year. So in preparation for cop 26

[00:12:43.94] spk_1:
my folks went top 20, let us know cop 26 there in

[00:15:11.14] spk_2:
slider Yeah. The Global Conference on Climate, Yeah. It’s technically called the Conference of Parties, but you can go back to what that all means in general later. But essentially, everybody got together in Glasgow to talk about the commitments that were made out of paris and then commitments forward and where the country is really stood and and there’s a lot of policy and a lot of other things that need to occur. So in preparation our partners and others asked us to make that October one focused on climate and the environment and climate and the environment throughout the year has always been and maybe it’s it’s always in the top 10, sometimes it’ll pull in the top five in the top five, but never in the top three, it’s always five or six. And so forth. The assumption is, and this is something that I talked about actually in in I was referencing climate as well as many other issues at times that sometimes the media narrative about very active young americans generalizes the general population’s perceptions of what young americans are really involved in. Right. And so when we see that, and this is the same thing that happens in maybe high states of polarization where you have the pro and the anti side there, you know, voices become louder and louder even though their numbers may not be as loud in general too, because, you know, we we actually did research for an organization that’s involved in the gun space and the thunder. And one of the things that were quite shocked about is they didn’t know things they didn’t know the individuals from March for our lives and in the climate space, they didn’t know Greta thunberg either. But there’s an assumption because our media kind of takes that perception that they’re young people being incredible movement leaders, therefore they’re garnering people involved and they are, but that population tends to be those that are active already. So they’re not skewing the rest of the data consistently. So what you end up having and this is what we have in climate in ours is we have a large swath of young people sitting in kind of this middle position, which are not necessarily incredibly overly active, but they’re, they’re what I would call probably more their climate conscious, but they’re not climate active and they’re, and they’re sitting there and that’s what happens on these issues when they sometimes rise to the media attention that they get, is is it doesn’t necessarily equate to participation, but we perceive it is because we’ll see a march rally or protest and assume that that’s what all young people believe.

[00:15:18.94] spk_1:
Yeah, right? There’s a, there’s a bias around the moment

[00:15:22.44] spk_2:
always

[00:15:23.05] spk_1:
because it’s now it’s now it’s in our, it’s in our ken it’s been brought to us. So, you know, it’s an enormous moment, not reflecting the larger context over time. Alright.

[00:15:40.04] spk_2:
And, and in climate is one of those that consistently is in the top 5-10, but it, but it hasn’t even in october it barely made it into the top. So our top five. So I would say that if you’re getting national representative samples really spending time making sure that you have a good set subset of the american population, you’re gonna realize some of this stuff happens this way.

[00:17:01.64] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications thought leadership, do you or your nonprofit want to not only participate in conversations around your work, but lead them lead the public dialogue. Wouldn’t it be fulfilling to have media call you to get your opinion on breaking news. It takes time to learn that credibility, no doubt. But turn to, can get you started and can get you there. Thought leadership, turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to influencing young America to act you, you focus too on actions that, That the uh, 18 to 30 year old set take. And I see signing a petition is very common. That’s a, that’s sort of an easy, that’s a pretty light lift action to take. But it’s pretty consistently and in, uh, it’s pretty consistently number one, at least in 22 and 2021. It was

[00:17:10.24] spk_2:
so, so

[00:17:11.26] spk_1:
signing petition, you know, it’s very likely you can get somebody to do that.

[00:18:05.14] spk_2:
And we, and we have to think about this. And I mentioned the phrase, the path of least resistance. We have to recognize our brain is an economic system, right? It’s always, I’m gonna do the least to get the most in general. Right? And so if I was to say to you Tony, you know what, I know you care about this. I want you now to go out and volunteer 30 hours a month, are you in your brain is gonna be like, well how can I do something, but maybe not go that far? That’s, that’s their model of our head and how it works. I always enjoy saying, well, we wanted, I hear young people want to be on board and I’m like, I can show you the national panels that that’s not the case. You might have very active young people are surrounding yourselves, clouding that perception and judgment. So that might be the case, but the vast majority are not ready to be on your boards and nor are they asking too in general.

[00:18:38.74] spk_1:
You see, there’s the bias. Again, we have to be aware that it’s very hard to overcome this. What we see is not representative of what’s happening nationwide. It’s just, it’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s in our face. So we think, you know, we, we see a car crash and all of a sudden, you know, we elevate the likelihood of of ourselves being in a car crash we see and we see a tragic airline disaster and all of a sudden, you know, the risk of flying on a plane rises in our minds, but, but it’s still, uh, exponentially safer than driving a car. Exactly. It’s, it’s very hard to overcome the bias of what you don’t, I forget. I have a book called alternative interpretations of data based conclusions college, but it’s still on my rival hypotheses. So there’s a name for this, but it’s like consciousness bias or something. What exactly that, Is that what it is? Okay, Okay,

[00:19:02.74] spk_2:
well, and, and tony here’s the interesting thing because, um, I’m often invited to speak, you know, you know, I’ll go to a board or something, you know, big organization, big brand

[00:19:08.85] spk_1:
that’s in your, it’s in your bio, you start after, it must be true.

[00:19:20.34] spk_2:
It is, it is. And and what’s interesting about that is I’ll often get the um, I know all young and I’m like, oh even starting out, starting out, I can’t

[00:19:26.08] spk_1:
even agree with your premise, let alone your

[00:21:27.34] spk_2:
Question. And you’re always going to hear me say according to our sample, according to because even though we have a representative samples constantly, you know, we’re fielding literally in this moment, Tony is supposed to end in about 15-20 minutes after we get off the call. Like I’m going to look at that my team will too and be like, here’s what this sample is recording as well. And I think when you look at our action because I want to get back to this because this is very key, especially for organizations that desires say funds, they desire heavier volunteerism, high expectation enrolls from young people. They are interested in those there is no doubt and so is the american public. Everybody is right. Are empathetic desire that’s coded within our brains to is saying you should that’s a good, you should be doing that as well. But we don’t start there. We usually ease into it after we overcome the path of least resistance and I talked about this a lot in both my book and some other stuff that we’ve done, which is that the first part of engagement is historically the path of least resistance. Where the brain says you should stand up for this or do something because it’s wrong, right? It conflicts with values and beliefs signing a petition is that way right? It’s telling the brain is saying at least you put your name to something, you can at least be honored in that way. Right? Then the second part of that really kind of comes down to that you see others who believe like you and are a part of it. And that is where peer engagement is very, very key because they don’t create relationships with the organization, they create organisms, they create relationships with the others and people around in the community, the movements, the constituency and so forth. Once we get some past some of that, then we start to get into heavier and deeper engagement and so on. But organizations really love to circumvent all of that and go right to the front and for some reason. And this is sort of my little uh um challenge to those that have an opinion around small passive acts because signing a petition

[00:21:29.21] spk_1:
to the collectivism argument

[00:21:56.14] spk_2:
and I have heard every argument about it and I always, when I’m sitting there listening content, li about it, I often say to them, it may not mean anything to you, but it means a whole hell of a lot to the person doing it. And it is a step in many steps to get involved. You should take that as an invitation to do more and and not expect that people have to be a donor immediately in order to be relevant within the organization because they don’t do it that way. They think any action I do for you. You you value it and you believe it’s important and you’re inclusive with it. And that is super key that we have to reinforce.

[00:22:42.34] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s very good looking at it from from the perspective of the person who took the action that was requested. Look, you asked me to do something and I did it. You know, I’m committed, I’m committed, you know, exactly in their mind, I’m committed to the cause. Now, all right. Now, if you want to convert that into volunteer time or come to come to a march or donate, you know, that those things are possible. But in the person’s mind, they’re they’ve they’ve they’ve taken a commit, they’ve made a commitment to the organization. And, and now it’s up to the organization. If you want to try to leverage that beyond, you know, beyond what some considered, uh, an insignificant act.

[00:23:28.04] spk_2:
And that’s the hard part. Right? So, I mean, that’s the hard part of digital marketers engagement and constituency managers who have to and sometimes I find haven’t done the hard work to take somebody who raises their hand and says, yeah, I align with you petitions are alignment, right? Yeah. It allows you to pick somebody out of a crowd and say these people align with the belief that we shared. So it’s our job now to develop the journey, go through it and so forth. But I find we spend so much energy in the intrigue awareness phase of many campaign efforts that we fought, and it’s like, oh, you know, that’s the wind. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. That was just successful to get to the wind, which will be later. That was the moment their milestone.

[00:24:26.54] spk_1:
I see a lot of interest in uh, I’m I’m not I don’t think I’m using the the uh the caption that you use the type. But I see a lot of interesting human rights, you know, Black Lives Matter, um, a woman’s choice, um uh housing, mental health, mental health, This is sort of transitioning into what, you know, you talked about at the outset. Um, I see a lot of interest in human rights and and I consider mental health and treatment for mental health, of course, you know, a basic human right? So I see a lot of interest there, I was gonna say sympathy, but, you know, you’re a researcher, so you might not like the word sympathy, but I see a lot of interest in basic human rights

[00:25:56.84] spk_2:
throughout, and I will say that if you pick up any of our reports, you’re not going to be shocked by seeing any of that, it’s consistent and it’s not just with this, your others. And what’s interesting too is that our social issues become our political issues and political issues become our social issues consistently and it’s not just in this year’s throughout right. If you were to look at and in the report, we talked about, what do you think needs to be in the biden plan that he proposed, which is to build back better or what was even asked what’s missing or what was necessary. And the things you mentioned are always kind of not just in this. I mean that was the one set question that we asked in the fall, but we’re always asking the question, what do you think the country needs to focus on? And they tend to be the same social issues and political issues around the human rights, the condition in which that the person isn’t right, mental health, affordability, employment, and wages, because these are the things that they see themselves when they see their peers also challenged with in general. Um and we have to remember the 18 to 24 year old, right, this will be your older gen z um and versus your 25 to 30 year old, which is in our sample. So we got both young millennials and older gen Z ers in here. Alright, if you look at wage, you look at all the other challenges that they’re dealing with in the formative years which includes now having for those 25 to 30 year olds, now having to pay for health care or hopefully getting it subsidized to companies for the 18 to 24 year old jobs wages, employment college.

[00:26:02.08] spk_1:
These, these folks graduated in the pandemic.

[00:26:48.54] spk_2:
Exactly, exactly. So again, this is one of those where I’m often saying, we have to understand the contextual, social, cultural, economical and political setting in which the person is taking this questions these questions from us because social issues don’t live in the vacuum and they become our issues, they become our politics, they become our values and our beliefs and so you’re going to see that thread consistently and someone said to me, I love, you know, we, we share this with them, I’d love to see all the social issues, like I got everything in there, from medical research to health care to you name it, because if we say, well, no, that’s a political issue I’ll say. But you’re not looking at it from their perspective, in their perspective, they see these as issues affecting them and there are places that they can go to to address it,

[00:27:07.74] spk_1:
let’s dive in a little more to the, your mental health findings. Um you know, you said at the outset, it’s because people have experienced their own Incident of depression or or you know, some other mental health issue or experienced it personally or they know someone who has it is it isn’t like uh is it one out of 10 is has been personally affected or know someone?

[00:27:27.34] spk_2:
Yeah, 56 actually, yeah, yeah, it’s substantive and this again was

[00:27:30.79] spk_1:
50, I’m sorry, do I, 56,

[00:27:33.04] spk_2:
56 had personally been affected or know someone who has affected 56%.

[00:27:37.10] spk_1:
So it’s over half I was

[00:28:58.64] spk_2:
confused. Okay, okay. But here’s here’s the thing that uh as I mentioned at the up front and I’ll reinforce here, which is that this has, this has been growing and it’s been consistently growing because this is not the first, we’re just now calling in a special section at the end of this year because we we we are looking at the researchers back pre pandemic. I mean we started our studies five years ago and now we’re in our fourth or 5th, 4th to 40. I’m sorry for you. We published four years ago, we started five contests a little bit of time and then um you know where we are now and it’s it’s just continuing to go up in general and I think this is something that we have to recognize and what I also find interesting because this is the first time that we asked, what do you think? Because this we sometimes never ask the people who are being affected what they think the solution should be in general. Right. So we asked them like what are the top solutions and you see here one of the top one, if you remember earlier, tony we talked about what we’re one of the issues health care premiums. One of the key things that they said, 46% of them of our sample, overall ensuring adequate mental health insurance coverage and treatment options for the uninsured and underinsured. That is, that goes to tell you something about a group of a cohort of, of a generation in the middle of a pandemic, you know, going through this and I think that that’s really key for our leaders to understand

[00:29:11.64] spk_1:
And then right behind that at 45% requiring insurance companies to cover drug and alcohol addiction treatment.

[00:29:23.84] spk_2:
Exactly courtly. That’s the fact that health and healthcare premiums were a major issue concern. Yeah.

[00:29:24.64] spk_1:
So this, this is a very compassionate group and, and has been for years as you, you know, you, so I like that, I appreciate you bringing in the larger perspective beyond you know, the year that I’m looking

[00:29:35.16] spk_2:
at this

[00:29:36.56] spk_1:
is this is uh these are, these are tender, compassionate folks.

[00:29:41.14] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. I well, very

[00:29:44.82] spk_1:
Uplifting to me at, at 60 years old. It’s very uplifting.

[00:32:01.94] spk_2:
I think that every generation is obviously going through their unique cultural, social political moments in which shape their values, right? And beliefs in what’s happening this generation is, you know, our younger gen z, our oldest gen, z’s are 18 to 24 year olds are getting out of high school in the middle of a pandemic going into college, you know, having these kinds of experiences that we’ve all had over the last 2 to 3 years. I think that what you are seeing here, especially in the 2021 compilation here, is that there there’s some struggles and they want, they want to help others because they’re personally affected by a lot of this stuff. And I think that if you look at this and say, well I don’t see things like other nonprofits are working on, it’s because this is the situation they’re in and that shapes one’s perception of what needs to be helped because they’re the ones also in the same camp of ones that need help in general. I’d also make another kind of comment around the compassion pieces that, you know, when we did the 10 years of the Millennial Impact project with the Case Foundation that I led that research for, we would consistently see patterns like this too, But wasn’t what was interesting in that one, although we didn’t ask things around mental health, although it would have been very nice. Now, looking back, you know, as a researcher, like it would have been great if we would have tracked that for 10 years, but we always tracked actions, participation issues and so forth. And the issues have always been somewhat similar somewhat. There’s some differences, Social justice versus civil rights were often in that sort of top three and so forth. But what hasn’t changed is sort of this desire to help their fellow appear because of them going through a situation like I remember there were 2 to 3 years the millennial impact project. This is probably studies like six years ago, seven years ago, eight years ago where it was debt getting a job and employment because they’re trying to come out if you look at it, you know, millennials are trying to, we just have retirement issues that we have a big boomer generation that still hadn’t retired. So you get forces that challenge employment and then you have millennials who are the one of the largest generations coming out of university, you know, Underemployment and then unemployment as well. Right, So these things affect when social issues and I don’t think that we’re, we’re kind of to our point throughout this conversation is that when you look at the perspective the person is going through, it’s not surprising to be seeing them say I want that person to have either what I have a little bit of or when I’m being affected by two

[00:33:57.74] spk_1:
very uplifting. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Oh, thank you for indulging me over the past several weeks, I’ve been promoting my plan giving accelerator class, the class starts this week all is well with the class very fulfilling and next week I’ll start promoting the next class through july No, that’s not true. So, but thanks for listening to plan giving accelerator commentary by me, um, I love doing the accelerator, I like seeing big robust classes and that’s why I promote it so much. I want there to be a lot of peer learning in which there always has been and there will be in this class too. So, so thank you for for that indulgence that’s all. And that is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for influencing young America to act with Derrick Feldmann. I gotta ask about um, I’m gonna caption it preserving democracy. Does that, does that appear? It’s, it’s not in the, it’s not in the top three that, that this report talks about. But is there, is there that, and I’m aware of your admonition, you know, that’s not a political issue. It’s a, it’s a larger, there’s a larger context to to it, but does something like that appear as an as an interest, the concern about political polarization, democracy,

[00:34:39.14] spk_2:
it’s, it didn’t hit in the top. Um, I will say that we, uh, in the fall of last year, if anybody wants to take a look at our reports at the beginning, all the way up until the election um, are reported because we, we had, we were asking questions around voting, democracy, participation, civic and so forth. There’s some stuff in there, but it was isolated a little bit, but when, when it’s in, when it’s in the rest like democracy voting and other issues, the large battery to select from. It’s, it hasn’t been in the top, it hasn’t. I know,

[00:35:24.94] spk_1:
uh, you know, it’s okay. I’m, I’m not, well, I’m a little disappointed, but I’ll be all right. You know, it’s, it’s still the compassionate I dubbed them uh, I was taking my notes that the compassionate cohort. So I’m, I’m still, I’m still largely upset. Okay. Goes to the older, yeah, the the older set. Well, well, we’re working at it too. Alright. I don’t like to go too far into politics. I just, I had to get my own personal question. So what about what, what can we say for, for nonprofits that work in spaces that you and I haven’t even talked about. Uh, I suppose they work for a medical cause. Um, anything that we haven’t, you know, we haven’t, we haven’t touched on, Do I presume your advice is don’t surrender 18-30 year olds. It’s just that you’re not among their top three or five issues, but don’t surrender the cohort or or what, what is your advice? I don’t want to.

[00:39:30.82] spk_2:
Yeah, I had somebody I was thinking this is pre pandemic, big conference speaking engagement. Somebody raised their hand and said, you know, I work for a cancer support organization and basically you’re saying I’m, I’m done and I’m like, no, I’m not, no, I’m not, I, you know, we have to recognize that this is the formative years that somebody is going through and what I always say to people to is When I think about an 18 to 30 year old in their social issues is that it’s it’s like going into a big, large space with so many options to choose from and there’s so well in tuned to get to any of those options and they’ll participate here and there and so forth. But what you see here is sort of the underlying interest in general, those things change. And by the way, we know this from our research, both millennial impact project and now those things change when someone is responsible at work for other people meaning their own management, those things change when we have spouses and partners and families and people that we have to support those things change when we make more money in advance and careers and those things also change the more educated we are in general. And so what we see right now is the interest that underlying a lot of this participation with both of those cohorts that I talked about, but it but it changes, it changes over time and as we, what we do know, even when you look at say, a boomer or a greater generation, the greatest generation or others is that it starts to narrow over time, right? It’s not so big in general participation. But what I would say is is that that, you know, I look at the mental health space and I know that there are a lot of organizations that address and touch on mental health, like there’s youth empowerment and youth organizations that do address mental health in general. And I also know from the guns issue that they the gun rights issues and you know gun safety, they work in the mental health space at times too, and for those that are wanting to attract and engage an audience, I always say to is that to what end is it just because because and this is what happens with those that might be infatuated with trying to get younger demographics because they see a data point like, you know, everybody is retiring and the transfer of like all this stuff that’s in the data point section of um, an article about older people and where the money is going to go and so forth, and I say to them, well before you focus on an 18 to 30 year old, do you have a, how effective are you with a 30 to 40 year old? How effective are you with the 40-50 year old? And what I find is is that we’re always looking for the silver bullet to engage young people, but I before that every organization has to figure out if their engagement model really works and people are really engaged regardless of age. And then you have a second thing to look at that and say, okay, if this is the case and we know their participatory, they’re taking actions are doing digital actions, doing somewhat of a passive activism and some other ways they’re getting deeper involved in things. We probably have roles for those kinds of people within our community. And so let’s create those and we may focus one or two times throughout the year to target that audience to help us out. But I’m not gonna make it about them, I’m gonna connect them to our larger thing. You know, for example, if I’m an organization that wants to get attention for something that we’re doing with our beneficiaries, with our donors have come together, you know, make it around the policy policy and activism style piece and get that we’re gonna get that population to engage with many other generations on it. It’s when we start to create siloed pieces that we get ourselves a little bit in trouble or like we’ve got this young person thing over here where I’m like, well, You know, no one looks that they are not going to say I’m doing this because I’m a young person. They’re doing it because they believe and regardless if you’re 18 or 80, you can still do and believe in the same thing and perform the same actions.

[00:39:44.42] spk_1:
Thank you. Okay. So it’s an encouragement and but don’t be, you know, don’t be chasing data points.

[00:39:51.42] spk_2:
I don’t Yeah, I mean

[00:39:57.02] spk_1:
don’t have don’t have board meetings. Look, you know, there’s research that says 18-30 year olds are interested in in a piece of what we do. You know, let’s create a program.

[00:40:02.61] spk_2:
They

[00:40:03.48] spk_1:
stay true to where you are. Look for points of overlap.

[00:40:19.51] spk_2:
And there’s some great consultants out there that love to pick up on this thing. Like they’ll probably look at my report which I know who they are. They look at the report and say, look, we’re pretty he’s promoting young engagement. Actually, that’s not the case. I am promoting that we engage people as you should be engaging anybody, anybody. And you need to master that before you start knitting segments. Because it would be the same thing to say if I read a report and said, you know, 50 to 60 year old people from this state are going to give more. You wouldn’t say in a board meeting, let’s create a strategy to go get that. No, no, no. Like what is our overarching plan and how do how does anybody fit into that in general?

[00:41:04.81] spk_1:
Yeah. Stay. Stay true to your mission. Always take a breath, your mission, your values. You know, center those maybe some there may be some things you can learn here, but let’s not pivot based on on the influencing young America to act.

[00:42:01.80] spk_2:
Study. Alright. No, but you should say is you know what we’ve got an upcoming event, our campaign efforts. How do we create in a way that also invites them in to be participatory that’s different than saying we’re doing it for them to say. And that’s that’s where we got it. Well, that’s the strategic thinking that we need back in place. I mean I work with brands in America that you all that, you know that our youth consumer brands that this is there like they are squarely in this space. They they have to I also work with large nonprofits or global nonprofits that this is also their target audience. They don’t do work outside of this. They focus on the formative years, you know, and I’m like got it. But for those that are very big that have all generations that they are, they’re not to appeal to one or the other. I mean, who’s going to say? I appreciate, I I don’t want your money versus this money, you know, you desire to get any dollar that kind of comes in as well. Okay,

[00:42:03.70] spk_1:
let’s uh let’s leave folks. Well, first we gotta say, where do you get, where do people get the influencing young America to act?

[00:42:12.10] spk_2:
Study? Yeah, you can see all this report that you’re talking about, which is the culmination piece from 2021 as well as all of the last four years at cause and social influence dot com and dot org. Either one will bring you there

[00:42:23.24] spk_1:
cause and social influence

[00:42:25.71] spk_2:
you dot

[00:42:26.20] spk_1:
com or causing

[00:42:27.57] spk_2:
social influence

[00:42:28.43] spk_1:
dot org

[00:42:29.70] spk_2:
either way. It’ll work out, You’ll get there either way.

[00:42:32.40] spk_1:
Okay, causing social influence. Alright, yeah. Alright. Derek, what? That was pretty inspirational, you know, I’d like to end on a upbeat note, thank you. But is there anything we, we haven’t talked about that you’d like to, you’d like to mention?

[00:45:20.69] spk_2:
Um I would say one thing and we touched on a little bit and this is something that we are spending a lot of shoot Alright, tony um please pretty good. Um and that is uh and this kind of goes to the bubble that sometimes we live in in general and especially when it comes to the spaces of like who’s engaged with us, who isn’t, who’s involved and so on and the word engagement is so fluid, everybody has to define it for themselves. But and I wrote a recent article about this is that a lot of people, young americans, all americans um are kind of sitting in this a place where they need nudging, they need nudges, they need that that piece to get them involved in something. And they’re also not sitting there attending rallies that we think they are going to every protest, you know, doing all of these kinds of things that sometimes we perceive them to be that that if you look at at the end of the day, we have empathetic, compassionate, interested people in the social issues that personally affect them and the people around them. The real question becomes is how do we get past those that make the loudest noise and participate the most to get to the people that are sitting a little bit outside on the sidelines, waiting for that right moment in that right nudge. And that’s where you should be spending your time creating the campaigns and the efforts. And we have been specifically looking at, you know, and and even we’re talking about in the, in the next year to to next year, this year to um start to exclude those that are overly active. They skew the way we think about data as well. Uh you know, we’ll report on them, but say, you know those that are performing tons of actions a month is your Uber involved person. And once you throw that in there, just like you wouldn’t throw in the $100 million donor on your analysis of all the people that gave 0 to 100 it’s gonna skew things the way we look at it in general and so you have to do and be incredibly diligent to take out those that are overly involved and really center where you’re trying to go to, you’re gonna find that those people are are want to be informed, they really don’t know you, they probably have never heard about you and are looking for that moment in that nudge to probably do something that’s different than what those people who are surrounding you. Tell you.

[00:45:41.39] spk_1:
Terrific, good and great insights. Thank you, I am too. Thank you. Thank you for terrific ideas. Derrick Feldmann. He’s at Derrick Feldmann. Remember to ours to ends. Thank you very much Derek.

[00:45:42.52] spk_2:
Absolutely,

[00:46:14.78] spk_1:
absolutely. I will. Thank you next week. We don’t have any more Derricks. We had to Derek’s in a row. No more Derricks. But how about AmY sample ward visits To talk about the 2022 nonprofit technology conference which is coming up in March. Many support visits, visits. Sounds like mr Rogers, I’m too Who writes this copy? I I need an intern so I can blame for this visit copy. It’s there. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. I do need I do need an intern to blame. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o.

[00:46:49.08] spk_0:
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by scott stein. Yeah, thank you for the information scotty. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for March 29, 2021: Cure Communications Gaffes & Talking Mental Health In Your Workplace

My Guests:

Julie Ziff Sint, Claire Thomas & Shafali Rao: Cure Communications Gaffes
Our 21NTC coverage begins by explaining what to do after you put the wrong gala date in an email, or send a letter to the wrong segment. Might an intentional mistake improve open your open rate? Our panel is Julie Ziff Sint, Claire Thomas and Shefali Rao, all from Sanky Communications.

 

 

 

Dan Berstein: Talking Mental Health In Your Workplace
Also from 21NTC, Dan Berstein helps you avoid a different gaffe: Saying the wrong things when faced with challenging behaviors or mental health disclosures. He’s got easy-to-follow strategies. Dan is founder of MH Mediate.

 

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[00:02:22.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into zero Estonia if I had to mouth the words you missed this week’s show Cure Communications Gaffes. Our 21 NTC coverage begins by explaining what to do after you put the wrong gala date in your email or send a letter to the wrong segment. Might an intentional mistake improve your open rate? Our panel is Julie’s. If ST Claire Thomas and Shefali Row, all from Sancti Communications and talking Mental Health in your workplace, also from 21 NTC, Dan Burstein helps you avoid a different gaffe, saying the wrong things when faced with challenging behaviors or mental health disclosures, he’s got easy to follow strategies. Dan is founder of M H. Mediate on tony State, too. How are you doing? We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is a cure. Communications gaffes. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC That’s the 2021 nonprofit technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. My guests at this session are Julie’s. If ST Claire Thomas and Shefali Row. They’re all with Sancti Communications. Julie is vice president of account and Strategic Services. Claire is copy director, and Shefali is senior copywriter. Welcome, Julie.

[00:02:22.57] spk_2:
Thanks for having us.

[00:02:23.81] spk_3:
Welcome to be here.

[00:02:32.24] spk_1:
So, uh, let’s see. So does everybody work for Julie? And then then And then Claire reports The Shefali is It doesn’t work like that. I’m sure it’s a very collegial place. Thank you. Community were totally lateral. Totally flat. Everybody gets the same pay. Everybody is exactly the same

[00:02:54.44] spk_2:
way. We’re really collaborative agency, but I work more on our strategic side of things. And Claire and Shefali are two of our genius copywriters who manage our clients messaging.

[00:03:37.34] spk_1:
Okay, I think it’s important to flush this out. So give folks a feel for swanky communications because they might be working with you someday. Your workshop topic is my bad to all. Good. How to repair a mistake in donor communications. So, like if you dropped an email with a mistake in it, or you sent out an email about the gala, and it has the wrong date or the wrong time. That’s that’s That’s a particularly egregious one. We would think we would catch that in copyrighting. So, um, Shefali, let’s start with you. How does these things happen? First of all, like suppose that example? Wrong time in the gala invitation. How could that How could that possibly happen when we have multiple eyes on projects on communications?

[00:04:14.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you would think that it wouldn’t, but sometimes it just misses all sets of five. I actually gave this example, even in the conference, but I used to be a journalist, and I used to be at the news desk copy editing and one day on the front page in a headline. The word public was missing an L. And that just went out the next day. And, um, the good news is that we have a system we have, like, strategies in place where we kind of make those mistakes work for us. Which is really what our workshop was about.

[00:04:18.19] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, you could have some fun. I don’t know. Pubic might be tough. to have fun you can have fun

[00:04:22.29] spk_4:
with

[00:04:36.74] spk_1:
without getting carried away. I mean, I think making light of a mistake, a gaffe. I use that all the time. I mean, you’re suffering with a lackluster host, so don’t be surprised if this comes up three or four times in a half an hour. Um, like the banging? I don’t know. You know, I have you here that banging

[00:04:42.14] spk_3:
a

[00:05:03.04] spk_1:
little. Okay, it’s It’s a hammer. There’s guys working on my stairs. You might hear vacuuming because they’re very fastidious about cleaning up. You might hear some, uh, sawing drill drill. Uh, circular saw type work. Um, not that that’s a gaffe, but, you know, it’s background noise. We got to call it out. If I can’t hide it, I’m gonna flaunt it, so well. Shit. I gotta ask, What did the paper do with, uh, public to

[00:05:20.94] spk_4:
pubic? And then we printed into the collection the next day. That’s all you can really do. That’s not the fun way. I mean, it’s not a fun where it was pretty upset about it, but we have actually had fun with some of our mistakes in the bus. Right?

[00:05:24.44] spk_1:
Okay. Who wants to share a mistake that, uh, so

[00:05:27.40] spk_3:
one of them One of them was in the footer. You know of an email and, you know, these things go out all the time, and and everybody is real careful about the

[00:05:36.00] spk_4:
content of the email, and And

[00:05:46.34] spk_3:
was the subject line perfect? And you kind of forget to be as careful about the footer and in the footer to the donors. It said eight cents of every dollar goes to programs services.

[00:05:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah.

[00:05:52.64] spk_3:
Now, most people already wouldn’t even see

[00:05:55.27] spk_1:
that Most people are going to look at the footer,

[00:07:01.34] spk_3:
right? This and this is an animal shelter. So? So when when it was caught, we were like, Okay, so we’re So what we did was we said, Okay, let’s let’s send it up. But let’s stay in character for how the donors know us. And we we have with this with this, um, animal shelter. We have a really fun, friendly voice. And so we sent out a correction email, and we used it to educate donors on what the truth is. And what we said was forgive us if you are, forgive us for our mistake. Um and we try. We’re pause P a w positively horrified. We made this mistake because the truth is it’s 82 cents of your dollar that goes to programs services, and we’re really proud of that. And then we talked about how we care for donor services. But we kept the really used pictures of cute puppies and kittens and, you know, it was all friendly and fun, and it was a good chance to educate the donors on what the actual You know how the organization uses donor resources. And,

[00:07:25.04] spk_2:
of course, the silver lining on that example and everything else is that when you do have an effective apology like that, um, you can have extraordinary engagement with your donors. So for that example that Claire just shared, we had over 50% open rate and almost a 5% click through rate, which is more than three times as high on both metrics as as you might hope to see.

[00:07:39.04] spk_1:
Yeah, Julie, I was going to go to you. Uh, so it sounds like the first thing you should do when you discover one of these gaffes is don’t panic,

[00:07:40.84] spk_2:
never panic. Panicking definitely does not help

[00:07:43.58] spk_1:
you accomplish your compound, right, you’ll send the wrong thing. You won’t think it through. You’ll blow the one chance you have to really fix it well, so keep your head on.

[00:08:35.44] spk_2:
Panicking definitely doesn’t help in any environment, I will say before, you know before you get there. It’s definitely worthwhile to have a comprehensive QA process. Um, and quality assurance process. Make sure that you’re going through steps to try to avoid the mistakes in the first place. But then, yeah, once the mistake happens, because no matter how good your quality assurance process is, mistakes will happen. Um, so when something does happen to be able to, like you said, don’t panic, figure out what was the mistake? What was what type of mistake was it? Is there an opportunity there? There might be a silver lining. There might be an opportunity. And how can you? How can you apologize in the most effective way? Or turn the mistake into make some lemonade from that lemon and really find a good silver lining there?

[00:08:58.34] spk_1:
What if someone is screaming at you? Maybe it’s a board member who just got the email. Maybe it’s the CEO. Whoever someone senior to you is furious about the mistake. Yeah, about them. Yeah, not about Not about what you’re wearing that day. But yeah,

[00:09:03.86] spk_3:
I’m just because the other problem is when the donor picks up the phone and starts to screen with you, right?

[00:09:20.34] spk_1:
Okay. It could be a donor, but I was trying to manage in the office first, but that’s a good one. Clear. We’ll get to. We’ll do that later. The secondary. The secondary market. Yeah, the other constituents. But how about right in your office? Uh, you know, a CEO or board member? Well, we’ll consider board members insiders for purposes of our conversation. What do you do there? Furious.

[00:09:49.54] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. And the first thing to do is to say, this is this isn’t all bad. There’s There’s probably an opportunity here. And we had a whole section on opportunities. Every every one of the case studies that we presented and the our speed round where people were talking about all these are the mistakes they made, you know, we talk about Well, there’s an opportunity there, like shuffle. You had some great ideas about opportunities.

[00:10:22.94] spk_4:
Yeah, and I mean, the first question you asked that the step was How does this happen? You know what I mean? Like, how do these mistakes happen? And they happen because there are human people at the other end of that happens like we all make mistakes. And sometimes the donor wants nothing more than to know that a person is at the other end of these communications. And that’s your opportunity right there to say sorry. Build a connection to make, like, some sort of personal, heartfelt apology. Um, and then you have a lasting connection with the donor.

[00:10:51.04] spk_1:
Claire, let me continue with you where we’ve got a furious supervisor here. Doesn’t it help to just also say, I’m sorry? I mean, I know, I know. I know. I made a mistake without trying to deflect or, you know, just even if it’s not 100% your mistake. Like if two other people read the copy also, but but the CEO is in your office in the moment. Oh, yeah. You just say I know, I know. We messed it up or I’m sorry. You know, I mean, just right, well,

[00:10:56.17] spk_3:
and and it is, you’re you’re absolutely right. But then there’s the other. The other mistake that you just alluded to when it was completely out of your control. Julie, talk about what happened with the USPS this year.

[00:11:30.54] spk_2:
Oh, my goodness. And so this is, you know, there are definitely issues that are outside of our control, right? So, you know there was for people who use Blackboard Online Express there was one year that it stopped taking donations on giving Tuesday. There was the black pod data breach last spring and summer. Gmail started hard bouncing in the middle of December this past year. And then, of course, in direct mail, USPS had delays and we had some of our clients were sending out holiday fundraising appeals at the very beginning of December. But then the seeds weren’t even received until the beginning of January. So if you’re mailing that,

[00:11:54.84] spk_3:
you think Yeah, I mean, there’s There’s a pissed off CEO pissed off client pissed off everybody that people didn’t The donors didn’t get the asks.

[00:11:58.54] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s

[00:13:06.94] spk_2:
outside. It’s outside of your control. But there are ways to make that into an opportunity. We had one client. They had sent out a mailing that talked about a December 31st, matching gift deadline, but people didn’t receive the mailings. Um, it bombed. And so we have brainstormed with them. What can we do to figure out a way around this? And we ended up doing an email campaign in early January that effectively said, We understand there were delays with the post service. We know that you may not have received our appeal letter. We would like to tell you that even though it said that the matching gift deadline was on December 31st we talked to the matching gift donor, and we’ve been able to extend it. Please make your contribution now, and so you know it’s not going to necessarily completely counter active. You know that’s not our mistake, but it’s not going to completely counteract that problem. But you can still look for a silver lining. You can still try to connect with the donors, show them that you are a human, show them that you’re all partners together for the mission, um, and then bring them back on board for for the mission.

[00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Claire, you you seem to be the one who raises the good hypotheticals. Alright, let’s let’s go outside now. I suppose it is a donor on the phone, so it’s not. It’s not a supervisor, but now it’s a donor. You know, maybe it’s maybe they’re the ones who maybe they’re the challenge donors who December 31st, you know, in January 3rd, they got the they got the challenging male or whatever it is, you have an upset donor or a very upset volunteer. How do you manage that?

[00:15:20.44] spk_3:
Well, first of all, remember that the fact that someone has picked up the phone and called you you have a dedicated donor on the other end of the line. This is a person who cared enough, cared enough about the work that you’re doing and is invested enough in the mission to pick up the phone and complain. So you’ve got someone on the phone who really cares, and then you kind of follow some basic steps. Remember feelings before solutions? Let them vent. Let them say whatever it is that made them angry and listen to it and be sympathetic and listen for opportunities to connect and then solve the problem. Sometimes it’s that it’s that the donor says, Well, I only wanted to be mailed once a year, and this is the third appeal I’ve gotten this year, and so you know you have a chance to draw them into a conversation and get them talking about why they care about the organization’s work, why this mission matters to them. Once they start talking about why they care, they usually talk themselves into wanting to give. I’ve been in the situation where I’ve been the person talking to the donor that was angry and letting them talk and then finding a way to, like, say, Well, that’s a really good point and I think we can We can address that mistake and then upgrading the donor getting them. That’s actually how I started in fundraising. I was. I was asked to call donors who were angry, find out what the problem was and and then just these were people who had pledged money, and we’re going to pay it off. I raised all the money they had pledged just by listening to them just by solving little problems that they had really small. Um and then they ended up being very dedicated, the organization, because again it’s what you’ve always said is that human human, you know, these are people on both sides of the equation. Philanthropy is, of course, the most human of acts.

[00:15:40.74] spk_1:
You all know the service recovery paradox.

[00:15:44.84] spk_3:
No,

[00:15:46.44] spk_1:
really, I haven’t. We

[00:15:49.33] spk_3:
do that. Pardon me? My suspicion that we actually do that.

[00:16:07.54] spk_1:
Well, yeah, you’re you. You could very well be a part of it, but, um, it’s bona fide. There’s research. The service recovery paradox is that someone for whom a mistake occurs and and has that mistake satisfactorily corrected will be more connected to the brand. I think I’ve seen it more on the commercial side will be more connected to the brand than someone for whom a mistake never occurred.

[00:16:20.14] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:16:21.62] spk_1:
actually, you’re describing Claire like your clarity talking about upgrading people who were upset.

[00:16:28.24] spk_2:
There are a lot of psyche communications. We were founded by sinking pursuant. Um, back in the late seventies. And there are a lot of myths around Spanky Pearlington. Um, and many of them are not verified.

[00:16:42.65] spk_1:
Uh, thank you, man or a woman or

[00:16:44.76] spk_3:
she is a woman.

[00:16:49.84] spk_2:
Um, I think he was a nickname for Selma. Um, apparently, maybe that’s the new thing that we can learn for today. Um,

[00:16:54.61] spk_1:
I think

[00:16:55.60] spk_3:
I

[00:17:24.44] spk_2:
know so So There are a lot of a lot of myths around her in the industry, but one, and I have no idea if this is true. But I have been told that she used to plant mistakes and direct mail letters because there was an increased increased responses or an increased response rate or an increased giving. If there was a mistake in the letter, people would actually right back, correct it and send in their check while they were at it.

[00:17:26.56] spk_1:
That’s brilliant.

[00:17:27.84] spk_3:
It’s brilliant,

[00:17:43.84] spk_1:
right? They love you enough to point out like Claire was saying, they love you enough to point out your mistake. But then they might feel bad about not including a check. So you’re you’re you’re helping them get over the hurdle of, uh, whether to reply, you’re giving them a giving them an even better reason to reply. And by the way, they feel bad. If they if they only complain so they’ll give you money too well.

[00:18:05.94] spk_3:
And we writers like to believe that once somebody has noticed some kind of little mistake, they start reading for other mistakes, and then they actually get hooked into the message. Those of us who spend all our time crafting those messages. It’s our chance to hook them.

[00:18:13.44] spk_1:
Shefali, do you do you deliberately? Have you ever deliberately honest Now have you any deliberate mistake in?

[00:18:18.61] spk_4:
I have to say I’m having this conversation. I’m already thinking of, like subject lines that maybe you have a mistake, but not super obvious. But it would get people to just open the email.

[00:18:30.64] spk_1:
Wait, wait, I want to flush this out. We’re getting good advice. This is the stuff I love. A nonprofit radio. Actionable, actionable advice. What way?

[00:18:53.54] spk_4:
What’s an example? For example, I’m just thinking, What if the subject line just had somebody else’s name and you click on it? Because you think OK, this person made a mistake? That’s not my name. And then you open it and says, Just getting Of course we know you’re tell me because you are one of our most dedicated supporters,

[00:19:06.84] spk_1:
Okay, but they think they’re being voyeuristic by opening it up. It’s made for somebody else. I definitely want to check that out more so than I would read my own. The problem with

[00:19:09.64] spk_2:
tony that that that will be great with the donors. It may not be so great with that CEO that comes into your office yelling.

[00:19:24.34] spk_1:
Well, I should get approval in advance and say, Look, I want to want to test it. I want to test it exactly like we’re going to send 1000 that are that are misnamed than 1000 that are correctly named And, uh, let’s see. Let’s see which one pulls better. Which one clicks through better. You want to

[00:19:34.69] spk_3:
share one more?

[00:19:36.33] spk_1:
I have these copywriter minds think it’s amazing. Anything else occur to you while we’re talking?

[00:19:42.54] spk_4:
No, that’s it. I mean, new campaign idea in two minutes. I’m pretty happy with

[00:20:13.64] spk_1:
that. Yeah, right. Okay, well, we’re 17 minutes in, so try to try to up your game a little bit. Were already. You’re only one idea in 17 minutes. We’ve got to do a little better than that. Um all right, what else should we talk about? The crisis communications management is this This is this is no, I mean, that’s a crisis, but we’re now we’re moving to organizational crisis. Where the where the local paper headline and it’s not good. Who? Julie, you got You got a first bit of advice for that.

[00:22:10.54] spk_2:
Um so I think we we go back to where you started with before, which is always start with. Don’t panic. Um, for many of the organizations that we that we work with, one of the first things that we do is we talk to them about what is the rapid response plan? Um, it applies to if there’s a hurricane that impacts your services or if there’s a political situation that impacts your services or if there’s something in terms of internal politics where there’s something that is going to impact your reputation and you have that that rapid response plan. And it’s a question of, you know, we’ve given whole other talks about this and that it’s a whole other topic of conversation, but it is. It is really important, right? If you have the plan going in that you can deal with whatever the issues are, so you say Okay, who are the decision makers at the organization? What is the chain of command? Who are the people who we need to gather at the organization to figure out whether or not we respond? If we respond, what channels do we respond in what is the messaging of that response, right? And so you know that that really does have to depend on what is the situation. And in some some issues you don’t some problems, whether it’s a mistake internally, a mistaken communication or a one of these kind of rapid response publicity, something some situations will not require a response, and others do. And so it’s a question of what is the message? Is it something where, you know, if you actually do something really offensive, who is the right person to say something? Is it the executive director? Is it the chair of the board? Um, so so is it somebody who is a trusted individual who is the right signer for it? What is the right message? You know, we do. We do often. I will say, use humor when we are crafting an apology. Claire Claire talked about that example of Please forgive us from an animal shelter. You’re not going to do that if it’s something really offensive, you

[00:22:22.60] spk_1:
don’t want to. Yeah,

[00:22:24.30] spk_4:
I

[00:22:30.54] spk_2:
mean, you never know, but you want to be very human. Talk about it. Ideally, you want to be real explain. Here’s the situation and and have a very real genuine apology. What?

[00:22:56.84] spk_1:
Okay, what if at the outset, you don’t You don’t have enough facts. I mean, can you Can you come out and say we can’t comment right now? You know, we’re still looking into whatever the situation is, and we don’t want to say anything inappropriate. So give us 24 hours or something like that. Well,

[00:23:34.54] spk_3:
and committing to transparency in that process, I think is going to go a long way to saying we’re still figuring this out. We want you to know we’re on it. Were These are the steps we’ve already taken. Here’s a step. There is the next step we’re taking, and we’re going to tell you what’s going on. You know, you’re going to hear about this. Um, and just just to reassure them anytime you’re you’re dealing with somebody you’re dealing with donor group, they’ve given you their money. This is this is an act of trust. You have to you have to work to keep that trust, um, to make sure it’s, you know, earned. So you don’t want to lose that,

[00:23:49.04] spk_2:
and transparency is important. But you’re also then messaging them and saying to them as a donor. You are. You are our partner in executing our mission. You are part of the organization. We owe you an explanation. And we need you to help us get through this. We need you to continue to support, um, you know, shelter, animals, homeless youth, whatever the population is that you are providing services to you, our our partner in supporting this mission. And we need you to stand with us.

[00:24:11.94] spk_4:
Yeah, and the more authentic and personal it is, it’s also it’s more of its transparency. But it’s also assurance that not just like it’s not just we have your best interest isn’t just that hot, but it’s also you’re in the know about what’s happening in the organization. Like Julie said, you’re a partner

[00:25:33.54] spk_1:
building on that trust that Claire was talking about. Yeah. Yeah, right. You have that trust in the bank you don’t wanna you don’t wanna exploit it, uh, and squander it, which, you know, conflicting messaging will do. I think too much delay. Depending on the situation, you know, too much delay. Then the story gets ahead of you, and I’m envisioning something really bad, you know, and then somebody else controls the narrative, and you’ve You’ve lost your opportunity. You know, those those things are bad. And that’s that’s a squandering of good faith, squandering of trust. All right, well, that’s that. That’s the trust to that Claire you talked about when we were talking about the gaffes. You know, people love you so much that they’re going to let you know that you made a mistake. Those are those are the most concerned, Like most invested people, the ones who don’t care, we’re gonna write off like, uh, another. Another problem with these people, you know, something like that. But the ones who really care, we’re gonna say, How could they let this happen? Do they know? You know? So, yeah, they’re invested their invested. All right. Um, what else are we talking about? We got a couple more minutes. We don’t have to wrap up whatever we covered yet.

[00:25:38.94] spk_3:
Well, one of the fun things we talked about not fun at all. It was how to apologize appropriately.

[00:25:45.24] spk_1:
Okay, well, you gave a good example of the animal shelter. Were,

[00:26:02.84] spk_3:
But if it’s offensive, what we’ve all noticed in, you know, in our media consumption in the last couple of years. Is all of these people, uh, providing apologies? You know, apologies.

[00:26:25.34] spk_1:
Backhanded apologies, if backhanded apology. If anyone was offended. Exactly, I didn’t intend it. And I regret that they’re offended. So it’s like it’s like their fault. It’s your fault for being offended, right? I regret that you’re offended, you know? All right, talking about her one. Horrible. Yeah,

[00:26:36.14] spk_3:
it’s horrible. And we actually said, Be sure if someone if someone said something offensive, be sure they say I offended. And I apologize.

[00:26:37.31] spk_1:
We should follow, you know, making human. There’s a human behind this apology. Not it wasn’t written by a

[00:26:43.58] spk_4:
robot. You know, it’s not like a template apology. Yeah, 100. An apology

[00:26:50.44] spk_1:
if anyone was offended. I’m sorry that they are regret that they are people who won’t even say step. Probably won’t even say sorry. I regret that. It’s unfortunate that you are

[00:27:01.19] spk_3:
all

[00:27:16.04] spk_1:
right. All right. What else you want to, um Let’s see. Anybody who wants to take us out with, uh, parting parting advice for the Let’s stick with the Gaff. I like that. That was the most animated part. The somebody take us out with good gaffe advice.

[00:27:19.24] spk_3:
Well, I’ll tell you one of the things we had fun coming up with Shefali and I, um, included. We gave a little bit of conference swag in some some checklists and things that people

[00:27:31.03] spk_1:
can take.

[00:28:21.14] spk_3:
And we also provided a little freebie five subject lines to try if you made a mistake. So this is how this is how to get somebody to open your email apology. And so we came up with we came up with. Well, this is awkward. Um, let’s see if we can get our apology right. You deserve our best. You didn’t get it. Can you forgive us? Name of donor and then my favorite. I think this is shit follies. Um, the email you were actually supposed to get name. Okay, So just kind of helping people out. We have. We have unfortunate reasons. Were knowing that all of those emails are successful. Um, so a

[00:28:35.84] spk_1:
lot of communications is gonna be a lot of mistakes. I mean, it’s going to happen. It’s humans. You don’t you don’t strive for them. Obviously you strive not to like Julie was saying, but but with QA. But it’s going to happen now. What about this? I don’t like I don’t like teasing nonprofit radio listeners, and then they don’t get anything. What about this checklist you mentioned? So

[00:29:03.24] spk_2:
those five subject lines along with a variety of other things, including some of the most common QA mistakes to watch for, um, at sinking dot com slash ntc 21 you can download a pdf that has whole bunch of good checklist for both avoiding mistakes. And then what to do if you made a mistake.

[00:29:07.44] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:29:13.54] spk_2:
so that was Thank you. Slash And so sink e ink dot com slash ntc 21.

[00:29:20.54] spk_1:
Got it and sank is s a N k y. Thank you dot com slash ntc 21. All

[00:29:24.33] spk_3:
right.

[00:29:43.34] spk_1:
Thank you. Think as opposed to what I said, which was Thank you. Thank you, Link. All right, Nobody talked. Now nobody talked. Thank e ink dot com slash ntc 21 You betcha. Thank you. All right. I don’t like cold, madam. Non profit your listeners. Alright, Good. So they can get the resource there. We’re gonna leave it there. Julie’s if sent Vice President of Accounts and Strategic Services. Claire Thomas, Copy Director Shefali Rao, senior copywriter all at Sancti Communications. Thank you very much. Wonderful.

[00:30:01.56] spk_3:
Thank you so much Fun.

[00:32:49.14] spk_1:
Real pleasure. I enjoyed it. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC 2021 Nonprofit Technology Conference where we are sponsored by We should be sponsored by sank Communication with all these shout outs I’m giving, but we’re not. We’re sponsored by turn to communications sank e ink dot No, not spanking dot com Turn to communication. Turn hyphen two dot c o responsible. I turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot c o thanks to each of you. Thank you very much. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications relationships turn to has the relationships with media outlets, journalists, even bloggers podcasters like me they have the outlets to get you placed When there’s a reason for you to be in the news. There’s some news hook that they can grab and they can talk to the Chronicle of Philanthropy, CBS Market Watch, et cetera. They’ve got the existing relationships and they’ll leverage them to your advantage because you’re their client. You get in the media, turn to communications. Turn hyphen two dot c o It’s time for Tony. Take two. How are you? How are you doing? Have you had a vaccine? How’s your family doing? Your family been vaccinated? I’m interested. I’m interested in how listeners are doing. I sent this out asking folks who get the insider alert our weekly insider alert. And I got a bunch of responses back. People. People told me how they’re doing. Tell me what’s going on, How they’ve been what? What It’s like, uh, planning to go back to work, etcetera. So I turned it to listeners. That’s you. How are you doing? How’s your family? Let me know. You can use my email. Here it is. It’s not gonna be able to use it and give it to you tony at tony-martignetti dot com. Tony at tony-martignetti dot com Let me know how you are That is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for nonprofit radio. Here is talking mental health in your workplace. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC, The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. My guest now is Dan Burstein. He is founder at M H. Mediate. Dan. Welcome to our coverage of 21 NTC.

[00:32:59.94] spk_0:
Thank you very much for having me.

[00:33:15.94] spk_1:
Pleasure. Absolute pleasure. We’re talking about something that’s important. That’s not talked about enough. Your session is talking mental health in a virtual workplace. There’s there’s stigma around mental health. Is it? Is it Is it worse now in a

[00:35:38.34] spk_0:
virtual world? Um, I would say that, and I’ll just say, I’ll just say that, you know, my background is I’m a mediator and I do work to help people talk about mental health. But I also personally live openly with bipolar disorder. And I would say that stigma is a funny thing, because when we think about stigma, we think about well, do people have a negative attitude towards someone having a mental illness? And as time has gone on the general climate of negative attitudes to someone having a mental illness, I believe is shifted so people are more accepting of the idea that someone might have a mental health problem and we need to work with the fact that everybody in the workplace has mental health needs of some kind and people might need take a personal day or something. The interesting thing is, what kinds of ideas do people have about what do you do when you see that somebody may or may not have a mental health problem? And that’s where so much talk has happened during the pandemic, where, UM, people are saying, Well, what do we do? How do we pay attention to our co workers? How do we notice if there’s a mental health problem and help them? Their statistics out that about half of people have some kind of mental health symptoms now during the pandemic. And so there’s a lot of people have these good intentions that they want to find a way to support someone who has a mental health problem. But the way that they offer that support might actually be stigmatizing. And, um, one way of doing that is if you assume someone needs help. So if someone hears I have bipolar disorder, or even if someone notices, I’m having personal issues at work, if they approach me with the assumption that I need their help, that that’s paternalism and that’s one kind of stigma, another type of stigma and I’ll end it right there is, um, another type of stigma is, if you believe, for instance, Oh, well, Dan has bipolar disorder, but if he goes to the doctor and he takes his medicine, Dan will be fine. Where you that’s That’s an accepting idea. But that’s not how it works for everyone, because I have a choice about how to take care of my mental health. And plenty of people don’t get better even when they take medicine, because they have side effects or treatment resistance. And it’s a difficult journey for them. And so sometimes there’s an oversimplification of we have all the answers for someone’s mental health. Now you just need to come tell HR tell somebody, and we’ll be able to get you the help you need. Use the employee assistance plan. You’ll get your help, and we have it all figured out. And that creates a lot of stigma as well, because it puts that pressure on people to have their mental problems figured out or solved.

[00:35:59.64] spk_1:
Okay, so we want to. We want to be able to say the right things and avoid these Gaffs around dealing with folks who may need help and you said during the pandemic, What’s the statistic? Like as many as 50% of people have have some mental health needs. Intervention needs. Doing what

[00:36:56.43] spk_0:
I would say is 100% of people have mental health needs. So that means, you know, everybody has stressful days. They get to have worried, overwhelming, take care of ourselves like we’re all in a spectrum. In a normal year, one in five people will have a diagnosable mental health problem. So that’s what a normal year looks like. It’s about 20% of people will have a diagnosable problem now with the pandemic, it’s been. About half of people have been reporting mental health symptoms of some kind, and that’s for a number of reasons. That’s partly because of the social isolation, the fear of the illness, getting sick from the pandemic. Um, you know, losing your job. I mean, so many things are happening that are possible stressors that can trigger someone to have a mental health problem. So putting it all together, the data has shown that about half of people are having some kind of mental health symptoms that they’re reporting.

[00:37:09.23] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So yeah, 2.5 times as much as a as a as a normal year.

[00:37:10.53] spk_0:
All right? Exactly. So it’s more relevant now than ever. Accept that we all always have mental health stuff going on in some degrees. So I like to say it’s always relevant all the time for us to do.

[00:38:08.32] spk_1:
Yeah, fair point that. Everybody. You’re right. 100% of people have mental health needs. That could be as easy as I need. I need an hour away. Uh, I need I need quiet. I I gotta be with people. I’m too. I feel like I’m twice later, I got to get outdoors. I mean, those are all us, uh, responding to what we’re feeling in the moment and trying to take care of ourselves. Exactly. You’re right. Of course. 100. You’re right. Not that I thought you would be wrong, but yeah, you give voice to it. 100% of us have mental health needs. Absolutely. All right. Um right. So can we Can we flush these two things out? You know, assuming that people need help or that is assuming that the answers are simple. Is there Is there more like is there. Are there more ways we can help people avoid saying the wrong

[00:41:26.41] spk_0:
thing? Yeah, So what I usually do and what I taught in the workshop at the conference is, um, I try to focus on people remembering that when we’re in the workplace, we have to know what our role is. So are are you this person’s, um, you know, support system. Are you this person mental health treatment professional? Or are you there co worker or boss? If your co worker or boss you should start thinking what’s appropriate for me as a vantage point to engage in the topic of mental health and what what really is appropriate is talking about the behaviors in the workplace and how they affect the workplace. So you may see somebody who let’s say their absence a lot, and that’s not like them. And it’s not really appropriate work, even if it were like them. And so you’re thinking, Gee, from the way they look, they remind me of my friend from college who suffered from depression, and I might go over to them. And I might say, You know, Dan, uh, you’re absent a lot. I’d like to refer you to the employee Assistance Plan, which offers free counseling benefits. Or I’d like to suggest a way to help you with your mental health. I’m concerned that might be an issue that is wrong, because done now is you’ve added the backstory of your idea of what their mental health might be from your personal experiences instead of just focusing on what you’ve seen in the workplace, which is the absence is. So the better conversation is to sit down and say, Um, you know, Dan, I’ve noticed that you’ve been absent and I’d like to talk to you about how that affects the workplace and what we can do to manage that going forward and follow that conversation forward about the behavior. And then there’s ways that you can integrate mental health, you know into that conversation. And the typical way is to say, you know, whenever anybody is absent three times or whenever anybody misses this many deadlines or whenever anybody turns in lower quality work, we always let them know that there’s resources here to help them. And here’s a handout that includes all the resources we have that includes the employee assistance plan, etcetera. But what we’ve done here is we’ve taken the behavior indicator and we said, Okay, my role is really about the behavior I’d like to offer mental health support. You don’t have to. I’d like to offer mental health support. So what I do is I find a way to do it without singling anybody out. And I regularly promote these resources, um, and link it to clear behavior based criteria when I do it, as opposed to my hunch that I’ve seen something and I’m guessing, if you may are made out of a mental hunch about you, right, So that’s 11 way to look at it and that covers most situations. The the other thing that happens, Um, so that covers if you if you if you see you know performance problems at work or if you see inappropriate conduct, you can do the approach, I just said, But the other thing that can happen is someone can come and disclose to you, and they can disclose to you either just in passing like I did on this program and say, I have bipolar disorder and that’s it. Or they can disclose to you by saying, you know, I have bipolar disorder, I have depression and I’d like to change something here in the workplace. And at that point, most workplaces of a certain size have a responsibility legally to consider what’s called a reasonable accommodation for disability. And so there is a process for talking about that, and the American

[00:41:29.53] spk_1:
is that’s under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[00:42:56.00] spk_0:
Yes, this is under the Americans with Disabilities Act, reasonable accommodation. Most Most organizations do not talk about this very well in the sense that they have a policy. If somebody asked for a reasonable accommodation, but they don’t educate the managers and the staff of when someone says something that could be a request for an accommodation. Um and so the example that I give is You know, a lot of people hear me say, I have bipolar disorder and they go, Whoa, that’s serious. Do you need help, Dan, Um, you know, But if I said, Oh, I’m feeling depressed right now and I need some time off I might not realize that that person is suffering from major depression and they’re actually asking for a disability accommodation. So it’s very dangerous to use your own judgment of whether or not a situation is serious enough to refer to H R or to refer to the disability accommodation on policy. And so what you really need to do is, um, when someone shares anything that includes two elements, which is possible health condition and that requests for a change in the workplace you should have, you should offer to process it like a disability accommodation. Um, and you should not, as a manager, informally offer the health, because even though you think you’re doing that person a favor, you’re making that person feel insecure that there’s not a real system to take care of them and instead that they’re relying on the goodwill of their manager. And that’s not a comfortable thing. In addition to the fact that if you’re letting the manager do these ad hoc favors, um, you’re opening up the possibility that there might be discrimination where whoever the manager notices, some people get, some people don’t etcetera, and and that becomes a problem. So that’s basically the whole gamut of interactions. You can have that work related mental health.

[00:43:21.80] spk_1:
So what is so what is the best way? By the way, I don’t know if you can hear There’s vacuuming because I have a contractor preparing my stairs, and

[00:43:22.84] spk_0:
I can’t hear the vacuuming, but I I feel for you.

[00:43:44.10] spk_1:
Okay. Thank you. I was feeling for you because I thought it might be distracting. Uh, well, if you hear vacuuming or pounding, it’s on my end. Okay? There’s no one trying to break into your home. What? So what is the appropriate thing to say? Then tell us, You know, like, if you can script it, what should What should the supervisors say when the person presents with these two? You know, these

[00:46:51.98] spk_0:
two criteria? I think they should just ask, you know. Oh, I I hear you’re saying that, um I hear you saying this and that. Would you? You know, would you like us to, um, Steve, there’s a way to adjust the workplace as part of an accommodation. This is what we say to anybody who presents with a possible health issue and, um, request for help. And most people will say No, I don’t I don’t want to do it as an accommodation. Um, and I’m saying this also with the caveat that you should go to your own HR department and find out how they want you to do this, but because they have their own practices and they have their own attorneys that have decided how to do it at your organization. But the key thing is, a lot of people at the organization don’t understand that regularly. People are saying things that could be a request for accommodation. And the fact that you would take it more seriously if I say I have bipolar disorder than depression is on its face. Discriminatory because you know you don’t realize it because you’re just thinking you’re being nice. You’re being supportive. Um, you know, But, um, but it’s just it’s just it’s better to have a uniform approach where anytime anybody shares any kind of health need while asking for for some kind of change at work, you refer someone, and if somebody just shares it like I said, I have bipolar disorder. Um, don’t assume they need help. So that’s the other piece. You need both elements before you offer the accommodation for all. Otherwise, there’s some lessons about generally how to talk about mental health. Um, and people can get resources that I promoted on the conference. I guess we could add a link to go with this podcast. But I could say that you are l, um, Dispute resolution and Mental Health Initiative is where you can get the free resources. So it’s D r M h initiative dot org. There’s a lot of resources there to help you figure out ways to talk about mental health and empowering ways. Um, one example is person first language. So you wouldn’t say Dan is bipolar because that’s defining me by my condition. You would say Dan has bipolar disorder, or Dan, um, you know, has a diagnosis of bipolar, you know, or whatever it may be, Um, the other thing is, you should really never make any assumptions. So when someone says something to you, the easiest thing to say is, Oh, what What do you want me to know from that? What do you want me to know from that? Instead of jumping in and saying, Oh, I have a friend who also has, um, you know, depression, right? Or I’m depression myself. I’m anxiety. You know, someone says to you, Hey, I’m mentioning, um that I have, uh, I’ll use me again as an example. Bipolar disorder, you can say. Oh, Dan, I hear you. You know what? What do you want me to know from that? And I said, Oh, you know what? I’m fine. I don’t need anything. I’m just open with everyone so that, you know, I just was saying it because it’s just what I do to feel more comfortable or it’s just part of what I do for my work. Um, but but But most people, when they hear something like that, they go into their hole on their whole inner wheel in their head. Um oh, what do I do to help this person?

[00:46:53.73] spk_1:
What I read about that. Yeah, I

[00:47:03.18] spk_0:
read about that. And it’s the actual advice to take care of. This is it’s actually quite simple. Don’t listen to yourself. Listen to the person who’s talking and make sure you hear what their ideas are and what their desires are. Um, to guide the conversations and there’s a lot more to it than that. You can get those resources again at D. R. M. H initiative dot org.

[00:47:19.48] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, since we’re talking so much about bipolar, why don’t you acquaint folks with what it means to have a diagnosis of bipolar.

[00:49:52.37] spk_0:
Sure, well, but well, every mental health diagnosis because of the nature of what a mental health problem is, where it affects your thoughts and feelings and behaviors is unique to each individual. So I don’t want anyone to generalize from my story to other people. But I have bipolar disorder. It’s a mood disorder, which means I have trouble regulating my moods to some degree. And because it’s bipolar, there’s two different types of ends of the spectrum. On the one hand, there’s the low mood, which is depression. Um, what differentiates me from someone who has a diagnosis of depression is there’s also periods of high moods, which can be mania or hypomania. Traditionally, people think of that as you get very euphoric. Um, but you can also, which means very happy. But you can also have a very upsetting or dysphoric mania. And there’s a lot. There’s a lot of complexity, so I don’t want people to walk away thinking they know what it means that someone has bipolar for me. I was 19, um, in college, and I didn’t sleep for four straight days until I was then hospitalized and they checked my brain and, um, saw that I didn’t have drugs in my system. I didn’t have a brain abnormality physically on the scan and diagnosed me with bipolar disorder. Because if you have one of these big up episodes where you don’t sleep and you talk faster than I’m talking right now and you engage in erratic behaviors, um, that is definitive for a diagnosis of bipolar. Basically. So, um, if you just have depression, you don’t know if someone’s going to have depression or not, because you need to see that up episode to know that somebody has bipolar disorder. So for me, I was 19. I had that episode in college. I missed a semester of school, you know, got hospitalized and I’ll stop the story there. But it’s obviously a long story of life with a mental illness. Um, and it’s complicated, and it’s just one of many people’s different stories. Some people go to the hospital. Some people don’t. Some people take medications some people don’t, and that’s why what’s important is to let people tell their story and tell you what they want you to know. Instead of asking your own questions and pro and probing. Um, what? Your question was totally appropriate, Um, for this podcast. But in general, if you’re at work, you know, you keep your head down, and when someone brings it up to you, you listen to them and you ask them what they want to talk about. And you follow some of the other skills that you can learn to be empowering and talking about mental health.

[00:49:54.57] spk_1:
So a better way to ask. What would you like me to know

[00:49:57.77] spk_0:
about? What Would you like me to know and or just Yeah, or just I mean, you can say diagnosed. You can say anything, but yeah. I mean,

[00:50:05.84] spk_1:
what would you like me to know

[00:51:19.56] spk_0:
about what you’re saying, what you know or what are you? What are you trying to convey to me? You know, the idea is less about specifically what you say and more about showing the person a few things. So number one is I’m listening to you. I want to hear your ideas and your story. You’re you’re empowered in this conversation. So that’s one thing you’re trying to do. The other thing that I mentioned earlier, it’s really important is I’m not judging you and singling you out to treat you differently than other people. So those are the themes that you want to show with. Everything you’re trying to do is to say we we we check in on everybody who is absent, we check in and everybody who misses deadlines, you know, we have the same conversation. It’s better to give a written handout because with the written handout, um, people can see Oh, yeah, You didn’t just make this up just because you’re freaked out by me. You you give this out to everybody. So those are the key principles that are the most important. And if you say the wrong thing along the way, um, you know that’s not always pleasant for someone. But if they can see that you’re really trying to be fair and treat them like somebody else and if they can see that you’re really trying to listen to them, then you’re going to have a good outcome. And and that’s not just when there’s a mental health problem involved, that’s actually all communication. Um, you know, in all interactions, it’s good to do those

[00:51:22.44] spk_1:
things listening,

[00:51:23.50] spk_0:
listening, listening

[00:51:24.73] spk_1:
just as I just cut you off as you’re talking. But I’m saying, but I’m emphasizing, Yeah, listening appropriately. Careful

[00:52:24.25] spk_0:
listening. Um, and what happens with mental health is a lot of times people see mental health niche and they start panicking about what do I do? What do I do? And it’s like, actually, you should really just focus on treating everyone great all the time, and then you won’t have any problems. And and And that’s where I come in as a trainer or, um, you know, to help different organizations is, you know, basically what happens is they have They have some missteps and how they’re dealing with mental health. And so we address those. But it’s actually addressing the culture for everyone because as we started, um, this podcast 100% of people are having mental health needs 100% people, um, you know, might need to communicate about feeling sad or worried or overwhelmed or having a rough day and and and these skills will benefit in all those situations. Um, you know, as long as you get to that mindset of the empowerment and treating everybody the same, all

[00:52:50.55] spk_1:
right, that’s excellent. And I’d like to leave it there if you make you make your points very, very clear. Very succinct. I do want to leave folks with DRM H initiative dot org for Dispute resolution and Mental Health Initiative. DRM h initiative dot org For all the valuable resources you were talking about, Dan Dan Burstein, founder M. H. Mediate Dan, Thank you very much.

[00:52:51.89] spk_0:
Thank you for having me.

[00:53:56.85] spk_1:
Awesome. Valuable Thank you and thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC were sponsored at the conference by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o Next week. More 21 NTC panels If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great.