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Nonprofit Radio for May 25, 2018: Board Change Agents & Authentic Selves In Work

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Greg Cohen: Board Change Agents

Want to shake things up on your board and in your org? Greg Cohen takes us through the process of identifying, recruiting and exploiting agents of change on your board. He’s with Cause Effective.

 

 

 


Raj Aggarwal, Sabelo Narasimhan & Glamarys Acevedo:
 Authentic Selves In Work
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference shares strategies for workplace inclusion so that all selves are welcome and accepted. They are Raj Aggarwal from Provoc; Sabelo Narasimhan with 350.org; and Glamarys Acevedo at Mamatoto Village.

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with polychrome at ophelia if you stained our relationship by saying you missed today’s show authentic selves at work, our panel from the non-profit technology conference shares strategies for workplace inclusion so that all selves are welcome and accepted. They are raja agarwal from provoke sabelo narra symon with three fifty dot or ge and glamarys azevedo at mamatoto village and board change agents you want to shake things up on your board and in your order, greg cohen takes us through the process of identifying, recruiting and exploiting agents of change on your board he’s with cause effective tony take to the ninety six year old secretary with eight million dollars in her will. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by regular cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps, dot com and by telus turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s here is authentic selves at work from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen, ninety si you know what that is? It’s a non-profit technology conference. You know where we are in new orleans at the convention center. This interview is scheduled centerview response, sir. Why not buy network for good? Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits and they’re sponsoring it. They didn’t schedule it. My guests are raja agarwal, sabelo, naralo kayman and glamarys azevedo raj is president of provoke i say that right provokes correct. Okay. I didn’t ask about pronouncing your company name. I only asked about your personal name. He did a great job amglobal pronounce her company name wrong to propose. They say sabelo robak provoc which is the traditional latin version of alright, alright. And sabelo is north american digital campaign manager at three. Fifty dot org’s and glamarys is the professional development specialist mamatoto village. Raj sabelo glamarys welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much for spending time and sharing your wisdom. Your seminar topic is bringing your whole self to work. Let’s, start down the end. There glamarys what’s the what’s. The trouble what? What? What would you like to? See, people do better when they go to work each day, right? I think our our session is going to be really or, you know, you don’t have a minute neo-sage exactly so this is a little preview, right? Eh? So we’re going to be speaking about, you know, who has the privilege of bringing their whole self to work, you know, and who doesn’t write s o i think some of us work in places where we do not how the privilege to bring our whole selves to work, right? Because there might be, you know, things, implications, teo, those actions bring your whole self, and then maybe some of us work in places where we feel like we’re getting closer to being ableto have an environment where we bring ourselves to work, what is the whole self? What do you mean? You have to forgive my voice? I’ve done about thirty these interviews what i say, what do you mean? What do you mean when you say the whole self? That is a great question, so i believe just in from my experience i’ve been and workplaces where i had to bring a version of myself to work. So that i could, you know, excel within, maybe they’re parameters, but it wasn’t maybe my whole authentic excel unlike where i work now, where i feel like i can bring my whole donor-centric self and it’s something that’s really valued, and i’m able to excel in that and growing myself instead of growing into stumping that someone else wants me to be. But what is your whole self, my health? So, i mean, that is that is that i’d like to ask everybody such a such a layered right eye, a multifaceted so there’s just there’s so many layers to my whole selves like that’s really? Uh, parsing that out twenty five minutes. I could take the whole entire teo, but we’ll start with your woman. Yes, s o that’s. Great. Yes, i’m a woman. I don’t fires a woman identify as a black latina. Um, identify as in my workplace, this is important. I defy with someone who is single without children. S so there’s some things that, you know, come up. You know, i’m bilingual, you know, those of certain things that come up in my workplace, that i’m able to bring my whole self and that and i feel like those are factors that are used against to me, which i think in some environments it could be and has not just could nobody has. Okay, okay. Sabelo yes? How do you do? Well, let let’s, before we ask, before i asked how you define your i don’t define describe your whole self, but before that what’s your what’s your intro to this topic, why did you feel this was unnecessary session at ntc? I feel like in the nonprofit world there’s been a lot of conversation over the last few years about bringing your whole self toe work, and most of it has been led by cece hat white males and women on dh they are proposing practicing vulnerability and taking risks and not worrying about being judged or the implications of bringing your whole self to work, and they see it from a very narrow they’re like my ionic, which which it means something entirely different for a person of color means something entirely different for someone like me to bring my whole self toe work, and the consequences are often not, uh, positive, so you know there’s a lot of wing of choices. That are made about when and how to bring your whole self to work so that it’s actually supporting yourself and not putting yourself in dangerous situation. Okay, i guess we’re going talk some about creating an environment that enables, yes, someone to bring their whole cell exact okay, the way glamarys feels comfortable, who is your whole self? Sabelo well, again, as glamarys said that’s a complicated question, but i identify as trans queer, immigrant of color on dh i have a lot of identities, but most of which are hyre not the mainstream at the organization i work at, and so i’m often used to being in situations where i’m the on ly x or the on ly why or the only z and s so how does that feel? Uh, it feels isolating it feels difficult to contradict what the expectations are for a leader toe look like what the expectations are for a person who’s doing good work in the organization toe look like and the particular ways that i need to be supported rather than undermined for bringing my whole self toe my eyes water actually, raj, welcome. Thank you. How would you to find the need for this session, um, i, too, believe that a lot of the conversation that’s happening is off, and technology is important. Designs important. I make my living doing it. But i think that we often have to leave who we really are when we come into interactions with other people. And i think the ending result is products, environments, people just not not being as effective as they could be if we really tapped into so authentic selves who we are. And so i find that the more that i’m able to be my whole self work, it gives our client’s gives the rest of our team permission to be themselves, too, and i find working together with them ends up being a lot better and what we produce is it being a lot better, but i think sometimes we’re just to. Oriented on the on some expectation of what should all look like versus what it truly is and how it’s continuously evolving time for a break pursuant, they have a new site and a brand refresh and the top creatives they’re the two senior creatives that worked on this. Put together a podcast with tips and lesson learned lessons learned that’s, taylor shanklin and andy goldsmith at pursuant may share how they kept it user focused, plus their expertise doing this with hundreds of sites. It’s a combo with tips and strategies lessons learned you’ll find it at pursuant dot com slash launch. Now let’s, go back to our convo you feel if if there’s, if there are parts of your whole self that you have to withhold, then you’re withholding your best work. Yeah, maybe not consciously, probably not consciously, but if you can’t be yourself, you can’t give everything that you can to your clients. Your organization? Yeah, i think it really pulls back on our ability to create creative solutions. I think that this idea that there is a separation between work and life, it doesn’t make sense to me. Um, i’m the owner of my company. I’ve been doing that for a long time, and i do the work that i do and most people in the non-profit work do the work that they do because they love it, you know, the number of people that i’ve spoken to that have been no offense hoodwinked by there by their organizations because they believe in the mission, but they’re not being paid well or treated well, but they believe in the mission over and over again, and on top of that, they don’t get to be them, but they do it because they love it. So in one way, you could say that they’re being manipulated by the system to do this thing, and then at the same time, they’re not able to be themselves at the same time, but they’re only reason they’re there is because they love it. So i think distinguishing those two needs to go away, who’s your whole self. Yeah, well, i think it’s also complex the way that my wonderful colleagues here have mentioned, but one of the things that i talk about, a lot of different things, i’m a male out primary owner of a company, and so i’m also a male who’s in a position of power i’m my heritage is from india, and i’m a person of color. I’m on a very interesting journey around race because i’m not black, i’m not wait on dh that’s seems to be, you know, obviously a really big conversation that’s happening in america today and always has been for a long time, but i’m also formerly heroin addict, and so i told my story on npr about three years ago, and i was very public about it. I wasn’t anonymous about it, and i found a lot of freedom from doing that, not only you just just in general and it’s it’s opened up a lot for me by having to release holding that back, whether it be with clients or whether it be with my team or with my family or with the rest of my south asians culture. You know, just these things, there’s once you remove the shame or whatever, people might impose his shame for some choices that you make that aren’t mainstream. Yeah, hopefully is what people impose not not what you’re feeling, but but those air those are so intertwined because it’s about acceptance it’s about being loved and if we don’t have that, then you know, we don’t feel we don’t feel comfortable being ourselves briefly. What was the npr story about with regard to heroin addiction? Yeah, you know, they talk about this thing called the opioid epidemic, which i think is baloney, because people of color have been impacted by heroin for over forty or fifty years, and at the very least, at least in this country and now that it’s become showing up in more in a rural communities may be impacting more people that are white, it’s become this, quote unquote, epidemic. And so i really want to talk about how it was one of the hardest things that i’ve ever had to go through in my life. As i was doing the interview, i had the privilege of having my parents with me, and they heard things that i had experience that they never even knew was there, and so was a tremendous amount of healing between myself and my family, but your parents heard some things for the first time in front of a mike in front of a mike. It was all recorded. I have it, i can share with you, tony, if you yeah, okay, it was a seven that’s, a pretty authentic radio. It was seven and a half minutes, and it was picked up by national npr and played all over the place, and i got hundreds of people reaching out to me, especially of south asian background, being like, you know, how can we talk about this? Because i’m struggling with some of the same thing. If someone wants to listen to that, can they just google your name, and they are, they can, and the name of the interview is called heroin. Heroin addiction sucks. It totally does, just for the record, okay, guard. Sabelo who? Who are the people that can bring their whole selves to work without a fear of shame, of being downcast. Who what population is that that khun company will bring it’s whole self? I think, at least especially in the american context. But really globally we live in a system of white supremacy, and that is seen as the mainstream that is seen as the norm that is seen as, you know, white male, i presume, is what we’re talking about. White women too on dh and there’s, there’s there’s a sense of their huge blind spots. These folks have white folks has around bonem there’s just so much that they don’t even think about, you know, they don’t question because they’ve just been entitled to just be themselves and it’s ok to bring their, you know, tears in or it’s ok to bring there dahna, you know, decisions in without worrying about will people listen to you? Well, people respect you, they can delegate, they could do all these things without ever having questioned i want to challenge something that you feel like women could bring their their whole self, comfortably white women i’m not sure for me see for me race and gender are like central to my thinking, but race is the primary driver like it’s, the biggest elephant in the room in every workplace i’ve been a part of in the us and, you know, for me that overshadows what white women experience, which can be challenging, but like, for example, in non-profits including my own, there are tons of white women in leadership, and there have been so, you know, they do experience certain forms of oppression, but and that that might limit their ability to bring in, whether they’re, you know, a mother or whether you know, other other parts, but but there’s also, i think additional blind spots created because they feel like they’re, you know, put down by the white men, and so therefore they don’t have to analyze their own reiteration of those kinds of behaviors. Glamarys how do you feel about that? Women wait, women being able to bring their whole self? Yeah, i completely agree with the fellow on that on because i think white women with what i think has not been highlighted is that white women, they really do uphold white supremacy, right? I think that is the root of what we’re speaking of here and the fact that we’re constantly, you know, i feel like the narratives always like all the white man, the white men it’s, just like but if you look at this is the white people and white women are part of that, and i feel like even to my experience with non-profits like, you know, at the end of the day, yes, they have other parts of themselves that they have to bring into work, but they i feel like i have that that privileged to be able to do that in a way that people, people of color do not get to do that. So in that sense, i can’t i’m not willing to sort of, you know, like, i don’t know why women, no, like they also uphold white supremacy, and so we have to talk about that that dynamic in the workplace. How about the workplace? That’s? Why what? I want to go to creating a workplace that is inclusive, that doesn’t impose shame, fear, love, discrimination, recrimination, let’s start since we were down there with you, america, how do we what strategies can you share, too? Because we have a lot of listeners. Who are ceos? Executive director among our among our listeners. What do you want to say? I would say, you know, hyre black people and rolls of leadership hyre black women and rolls of leadership, i think, like, at the end of the day, like getting those people and to those rows of leadership is going to affect the, you know, dynamics that are happening at non-profits that are kind of like a monolith right now, right? Like it’s, you know, white on top, and then maybe, you know, as you trickle down on it would be, you know, more people of color, but that’s not the way like, if you’re really wanting to be inclusive, that’s not the way to get it to bilich oh, we met some sort of quota because we have enough, you know, workers of color and itjust like, but where are they within the company, right? What about the pushback that there aren’t enough applicants of color a senior leader for senior leadership position? So with that piece, i would go to the job description and you can see the, you know, racial undertones, even within that, right? Like what? What, like when when? You put it in there like when you put into job descriptions, maybe not, including, like, maybe experience, but really trying to highlight, like education. We already know they’re very like large disparities within, like, even educational requirements, and but someone might have the experience, you know, just from working to be, but be great person for this role, but because you have maybe this piece in here it’s like, oh, they have to have, you know, a master degree and this and that, you know, i mean, like, those kind of sort of pre requisites really end up excluding people from being even able to even apply track. S o i think some even like looking into that, i think when people are riding up, you know, they’re just just job description, what they’re looking for if they were true, like, if they really were to look at it and parse it out there looking for a white, you know, male, female, really to fit into these roles, they may not be doing it consciously, right? But they are doing it subconsciously and so that’s something that i’ve, you know, been able to see whenever i’m going to go. Up imply for roles i i think i may be a really great fit for this, but because of some of these markers that they have put in there, they’re not realizing that they’re really excluding frumpy people, you know, to apply so people of color, like they’re out there, and they’re ready to take on these roles and be really excellent in these roles. But it’s really the environ first of all, the environment of those non-profits do people even want apply there? Because it might be one of those things that rogers speaking to where is like, the mission seems amazing, but then you look at, like, the culture of it, you’re just like i’m not really even wanting to be a part of that writes that might also be contributing to why those organizations feel like there is in that pool of applicants, right? But people are out there that there’s no one can tell me that there’s not people of color who can come in and, you know, a part of these rolls but i think it’s a lot around the the oh, gosh, it’s word this morning napor martignetti yeah, the markers of it, you know, but okay, but isn’t education a reasonable requirement for see you, lucia? But if it’s a cfo it’s reasonable to expect a degree in finance, correct, i think, but i know i hear you on that piece, i just feel like what’s not being thought about is people’s experiences experience coming into these rolls, right? Like, if you have these, like defined markers of, like, you have to have this that’s in that, like when it comes, i think the educational metoo means something like a bachelor’s degree or further in finance or equivalent life experience, right? Exactly. I’m starting to see more of that happening, which i think is super important, and i think that is a better way of sort of approaching those sort of things whenever job descriptions are being put out there. But yes, i’m definitely speaking to that she has an employer. Um, i totally agree one thing that i’ve found is that i had no idea how much code was in the language that i was putting out in my job description, but i’m a person of color. And what else did you find besides education language, like professional or expertise or networks? Of people where i was putting out the job description to because if i kept on putting out to my two don’t people of color, i have networks, and aren’t they professional and missing even the word wife? I mean, there were those air more ground, even the word professional is code for a certain type of person that might dear to what the standards are, whatever professionally, i think i think that you have tio i think you have to start with the assumption that there is a qualified person of color for every role you’re hiring for and that you do not need to lower your standards in order to get a person of color in those roles. It’s just about changing the language, many most people get jobs through network through who they know. There are even their stats that black college graduates from the same schools get jobs at much lower rates than the white college graduates from those same schools. It’s clear that the disparities air there even with equivalent education, so you just have to re tune yourself. You have to reframe the job based on that assumption that, like, you’re not reaching the right, people that you want to bring in to actually get creative, innovative new thinking in your company and like different perspectives, different questions ask different projects prioritized because you’ll get different people than just those same old, same old people that you have. Another part about the issue was specifically with the cfo, which i think is a really good example the people that run our books at our company don’t have a degree in finance, they even work, and i’ve been writing a sustainable business for over nineteen years, and what i find is that people that often are very dogmatic about particular numbers, they’re not really understanding the missions. So when there’s a nuance to a particular decision that isn’t just about money but about impact, they’re not able to discern it in that way. So i think it’s more important, that they have well rounded experience are connected to the mission versus just having it the degree that indicates that they were educated by some ivy league university that says that they can do this thing, but it doesn’t mean that other blind spots are going. I’m guessing it’s, you would find it insufficient to just have a statement that says people of color re hyre regardless of treyz sexual orientation, uh, gender, etcetera, just have a disqualifier at the bottom of a job description. I’m guessing you would believe that that’s not sufficient. I don’t think the necessary that’s necessary, but not sufficient. It’s what? It’s a it’s, a it’s. A very basic. Okay, what is it? I didn’t. I don’t get your point about the word professional or networks because people of color, people who are trans i mean, they have their professional and they have networks. I’m what am i missing? Professionalism in america is usually about assimilation, assimilation to white supremacy, assimilation to an idea being american. If you have an act sent getting rid of it, if you have dreadlocks not wearing them to work, you know, there’s there’s a lot wrapped up in that word professional that perhaps a lot of people don’t think about white people don’t think about but all the people of color i know do think about the you know, the ways in which they conform or code switch to adapt to workplace ideas about professionalism. Good let’s go so it’s kind of pathetic als bringing your whole self toe work if we’re talking about a simulation. Yeah. Same. Or what do you mean? Well, if we’re all going to be the same, then what’s the point of us being individual human beings with their own personalities, experiences, characteristics, perspectives like, you know, one of the things that i do in washington, d c is i helped to create it an inclusive economy. And one of the things that we really try to push out as much as we can is big boxes. And because people want to live in communities where there are businesses that represent their own individual needs are owned by people within their community. Everybody going no offense and mcdonald’s or the target over and over again. And also no target has its own place in the world as faras economics go. But the point is, how do we create a unique environment that is representation of each of our beautiful, unique selves? Let’s go further than beyond the job description. What would you like to say? A little like some idea. Yeah. I mean, hiring is, of course, a really important prerequisite. But beyond hiring retention support, um, i have a very strong voice i have a really unique perspectives to bring in that would really help push the work forward creative solutions to some of the challenges my organization faces. If i’m not in an organization that can support me to say challenging things, if i’m not in a place where bob that leads to my promotion rather than my demotion, or my being tradition or marginalization, yeah, exactly like it really takes a lot of ongoing work to support people of color and marginalized folks in in a workplace and to really buildup and, you know, empire their leadership rather than undermining them. What form can that support tape? I understand in terms of encouraging the voice, encouraging a voice that’s not traditional typical but what other are there other things that employers could do to support to make that support explicit in the organization? What else do you like? My suggestion is one one is model as much as you can that it’s ok to bring your hosts off to work. And secondly, humility and talking as little as possible. It’s really there there’s so many beautiful voices that just aren’t heard on a regular basis. And if you could just sit and listen. What emerges to me? It fascinates me every single day. We have to spend another minute or so together see glamarys start, we started with you, we’re gonna we’re gonna book and you’re gonna be booking wrap up with you in a little less than a minute or so, you know, some encouragement and some motivation, okay? So that’s that’s the way to make a change to make change, to encourage the diversity that we’re talking about? Yeah, so again, for for within my work environment, we ended up sort of like creating our own way talk about this whole, like, sea at the table sort of thing, and so we just ended up making our own table, right? And so i think from there we have a fork work force development program, and we’re just were, you know, bringing people in from the community and giving him those skills, you know, that they’re not having the opportunity to get in other places, and our hope is that we’re just we’re going to be able to flood sort of in our field with eventjournal child held just flood the field with, you know, women of color, people of color who are going to be ready to go on to the leadership roles so that’s like a peace that we’re really that’s. How sort of were targeting that. So i really appreciate that approach. All right, that was glamarys azevedo she’s, a professional development specialists mamatoto village. And next to her in the middle is sabelo kayman north american digital campaign manager at three. Fifty dot org’s. And next to me is raja agarwal, president of provos provoc provoc provoc look provoc provoc provoc group provoke provoke. Thank you, roger. Good sport. This is an interview. Is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donordigital and fund-raising software for non-profits. I wanna thank you so much for being with twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. Thank you so much to our panel. I need to take a break. Wittner. Cps. You know what cps do? Nine nineties and audits mostly, right? Although wagner does go beyond the numbers hear me say that it’s true started wagner, cpas dot com get comfortable in one dimension. Then go human-centered he coached whom? He’s been a guest. I know him. You know him? He’s been on multiple times. He’s. A good guy. No pressure is not like that. His number is. At wagner cps dot com, which is where you get started now. Time for tony steak too. Did you hear the one about the ninety six year old secretary who gave eight million dollars to two non-profits in her will? That’s? Not a joke. She spent her career at a law firm in new york city. It got it was very small when she started, it got very big. When she retired, she invested based on what her bosses were investing in. Because back when she started, secretaries would handle would do the investments. So she bought a little bit of the same things they were buying decades and decades ago left to charities. Ah, little over eight million dollars here in new york city. Very compelling story. Um, and i have an important takeaway from it about the way you treat your modest donors. She turns out she was never a donor, but the takeaway deals with treating your modest donors well. And to get that takeaway, watch my video it’s at tony martignetti dot com now it’s time for board change agents, and in order to do that, we have to bring in greg cohen returning greg cohen. Also multiple time guest he’s, associate director at cause effective the non-profit capacity building organization, he’s provided coaching and training to the boards and staffs of hundreds of clients. His expertise includes converting resistant boards into competent and effective fundraisers and developing board. Meaders he’s at greg cause cause effective is at cause effective and cause effective dot or ge he’s in the studio. Welcome back, greg cohen. Thanks. Really happy to be here. That’s a pleasure. This was a bit of a last minute thing, but i’m glad it worked out so well, sure. Um, so board change agents okay? Or board members as change agents. Um, how can boardmember is be effective as change agents. So this starts with how to think about your board overall, i’m going to say ah and step into a room and executive directors and say, list your top three headaches and, you know, that board is going to show up one or two on that relationship has got a complaint about their board. So the first thing that i say to exact directors is, remember it’s, not about the people. This is something systemic boardmember zar, your chief volunteers and you want to reflect on are you creating an environment that brings the best out in each? Boardmember and they’ll say, well, they’re tired, they’ve never i didn’t recruit them to fundraise, but now i need it. So the first thing to think about is when i’m thinking about changing my board am i changing the rules of the game for the people who are in the room? That’s the first thing where i might have recruited them where fund-raising wasn’t a priority now it’s important to me because my organization’s grown and then as we bring in new people, we don’t want to bring people in to that tired, bored culture where they sink down to the lowest common denominator. So here’s my theme, which is you recruit people who are ready to help you change that culture, you talk about it explicitly in the recruitment process and then you bring them in such a way that they start to provide leadership from the get go ng there your ally for change? Why would they want to come to a board? That’s i’m going to call it dysfunctional. You don’t use that word, but i don’t know lackadaisical, underperforming under performing. That’s okay, right now, that sack less judgment that’s still judgment, but right says it sounds harsh. Okay, why would why would they want to come to a board that’s like that? And and be the firebrand and the troublemaker, right? Well, it all starts with mission, right? Like everything else like fund-raising why people volunteer, they care about the work. So when you go out and recruit, you have tohave a narrative of change. We’ve built our organization up, we had a group of dedicated founding board members who put in a lot of time in the beginning, they were volunteers when we didn’t have staff, but now we’ve grown, we have staff and we need a governing board that’s that’s paying attention to the high level issues and out there finding money for us, right? So we don’t have that now. We don’t have that now and very often, as we were crew there’s a really fear if we talk about the fund-raising requirements now, they’ll never join the board. So first is front and center, so the narrative has to be we’ve grown, we have exciting opportunities in front of us. We need a board that matches the and can help add capacity so we can realize all our potential. So what’s offgrid teo just what’s offered to those candidates is the chance to contribute to building the organization to the next level. Okay, so it does. It needs to be someone that loves this mission and that’s true for any board. Candid. Okay, well, well, yes, it ought to be right. Okay, i think sometimes any good, but i’ve seen i’ve seen recruitment just on expertise. We need a lawyer. Well, i know a popular i know a lawyer. Who’s got a good network and she’ll raise a lot of money. So let’s bring her in, but but she doesn’t know the organization, and that leads to disappointment. She’s ended up doing it as a favor to a friend or something like that. Okay, all right, so this they love the mission and you can make very plain to them the gap between where we need the board to be to make that mission excel and where we are right and you’re going to say that you’re going to be that you’re going to be the bridge. You’re going to walk into a room where you’re going to see behaviors that are different than the ones that you were trained in, if you’re coming in, say, through united way or or or another program, i’m bringing you in to be a partner to change that board culture through your excitement about the mission, and you’re fresh ideas, okay? And people are going to look at you. Well, they’re going to be prepared. We’re going to get that because this is the existing board members need to be prepared for when we cover that now. Yeah, because otherwise they’re gonna be daggers in the back of this, only their boardmember are people just going to sit and watch right off my board? Models are consensual and collaborative. It’s not the it’s, not dallas it’s, not the back room. I was there to change this to change person changed person the reporters and prepare the worst is that they pay no attention and they behave the way they did, eh? So what we need so first of all, i’m putting the executive director and whoever’s on the board who’s there, partner in the recruitment in an active role of really thinking about the process of change. So you know there’s a science of change management, we have to articulate a narrative that says we’re on a journey with this organization. The needs for the board’s involvement have changed. We honor what you’ve done, we hope that you will step up to those new needs, but we’re moving forward regardless because the mission in the organization calls for it. So that’s the context and then we need some people with new skills, new networksnew capabilities and ah, willingness to fundraise. We hope you will join us. This is to the existing board, but but if not, we’ll find another place for you advisory board honoree board many forms aboard heaven that you can put people on, but we’re going forward, and we’re going to bring in new folks who are ready for this. Now, we’ve gotta have some allies on the board. We’re going, we’re going, ah, validate this message when it comes from the ceo executive director, i mean, you need is not one ideally suit. This can’t be a surprise, right? I mean, you have good leadership. Ideally, the chair of the board would be idealware well, it’s often you have a very tired from here. That’s the that’s, the source of the trouble you’re tired, you need one or two people and see the need for the change. You know where the allies they don’t have to be officers. Ok, is your back channel before this? Before this change announcement you can and you crack on with transparency. But that’s another conversation. It doesn’t have to be back channel. But you do have to find people who say who actually are the voice in the boardroom of the need for change. It’s more effective if it comes from appear then from the staff. Even the executive director. Okay, better coming from them. I feel like this board is that this is the is this a new business? They raise their hand. I feel like this board is not. I am one of the m one of the one or two. Yeah, sees the trouble. Right? I feel like the new business. I’m raising my hand. I feel like this board is underperforming way. Don’t raise the money we were had, like forty or fifty or sixty percent giving every year among the board. We’re not bringing in our networks. Well, i don’t. I don’t see excitement. On the board about the mission, we’re not engaged with what’s happening on the ground by identifying some potential. Is this is this how it happens? And then? Well, so that that’s the observation is but we have so much that we could do for our clients in this era, we have a waiting list, our staff is performing greatly. How do we talk to each other about bringing the necessary resource is and providing the oversight and stewardship of this organization that’s ready for takeoff? And we need to examine ourselves to see, are we in a place to do that, or do we need to step aside and bring in new people now? Somebody other than the one or two right? I think we’re doing fine. I don’t i don’t see the troubles your eye, all the reports we get are that are the people are fed, are you? Our recipients are benefiting? We’re making impact in the community? Uh, i like the way the board meetings run the preparation for them. I don’t i don’t see these troubles that you’re that you’re kicking up. If if if if if all is well, then no reason to change. The border let’s presume, but there actually is going to be just fine with the resistance. Yeah, so the idea is that we’re having to create a sense of urgency in the boardroom that one of two things is the case, something that we value about our programs and our services will be lost if we don’t get more involved or something or more importantly, and we hope when there’s opportunity and a group is flourishing, things that we want to call into existence components of our strategic plan, expansion of services won’t happen until we step forward. As aboard the staff has exhausted its resource is now the board must play its full governance and fund-raising role, that condition of urgency must be present or it’s rational that people don’t change their behaviour. Ok, urgency, okay, um, let’s, go back to the coast and then it just to say there needs to be a narrative in the boardroom, you know, brought by the staff and those allies that makes it clear that there’s a need for change on an organizational basis. It’s not about the performance of individual boardmember no finger pointing, no blame. We’ve grown up the organizational. Curb the board needs to now catch up with where the organization is that’s a very common situation that the growth of the organization’s development moves faster than the boards and then the board needs to catch up, and some people have put in their service and they’re tired. They don’t want to step up or they need help. And that’s where bringing in some new folks in new energy, new talents, new networks as change agents really could make the difference. You can’tjust reform your existing complacent board without bringing some new element into it. Ok, ok, all right. But i want to address the resistance because right, everybody not going toe be subservient. Go on. All right, all right. So i feel like very articulate with that. Thank you. Alright, let’s, go back to these potential change hs. Now, um, how do we identify the skills that that we’re looking for? The personality? I mean, that’s got the personality is a bigger deal in recruiting these couple of change agents than it has been in recruiting our board for the past fifteen years. Right? So what we’re looking for, right? So first of all, i i said i don’t kick them my eyesight, the executive who’s, your hands, but not your feet, the executive director and those allied board members are are in a place of being the helping b the agents of change. This is an active strategic process, not a passive one, so the recruitment process is of the past may not work up front. You’re looking for people who have experience running and motivating teams. If fund-raising is important, then you want prior fund-raising experience and you want to talk about your goals so it starts with those doing the recruitment, being able to describe clearly what they’re looking for going beyond just we need a lawyer who cares about kids who’s willing to write a check that this is being more demanding and looking for the kind of people you’re bringing to the board table because you need them to drive change. All right? They got the motivational articulate. Yep, right? They’ve got to be pretty insightful to. They’ve got to be ableto handle the pushback not only in the public meeting, but you know, in their committees that they’re going to get assigned to in any back channel communication that might be from other boardmember zoho resistant there’s got to be able to manage yeah, i’m not sure i want to be the manager now. It’s nice if you find someone that’s a very high level skill, but they need to not need credit to be able to lead from behind and put their energy and heimans and they need to understand the background of the need for organizational change. So to understand the journey that we’re helping, they take the board on complete value back-up buy-in so that that’s what i don’t have to have served on the board before, but they have to be good listeners on dh and willing to work as allies. Let’s, take a break and ah, that is for tell us, tell us monium lee elementary school foundation receiving a monthly donation from tell us for the credit card processing of a company one of our parents owns likely the easiest donation source we’ve ever secured. End quote the elementary school that’s, the monthly pass of revenue i’ve been telling you about think of people who are close to your organization who owned businesses. You start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us and go from there. Now, back to aboard change agents with greg cohen. Um, but greg has to sit tight while i do live. Listen, love and podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections. I’m sorry sam prompted me. Yes, the live listener love goes out. Where is it? Cut where’s it going to? Well, it goes to the universe, but specific places within within that that universe. Staten island, multiple new york, new york. Always count on that brooklyn, new york. Um all right, s o we got where’s, where’s, the bronx and queens. We don’t see them today. Alright, historia. We’ve got a story. A queens. Is there? Where’s, the bronx? Not checking in. Well, let’s. Not focus on the negative. Live love to the four boroughs that are with us. Queens, brooklyn, manhattan multiple and staten island. Also down to tampa, florida. A state kongers, new york. Lots of new yorkers love it. Um, hubert, north carolina live love to north carolina. You know, i love north carolina. We’ve got listener in iraq. Iraq is occasionally with us, but not too often live love to you out in shanghai seems to be our only china listeners. Shanghai ni hao, let’s, go to the u k we don’t know which country is masked. We don’t know the country all right. United kingdom, listener live listener love to you and ah, it covers it so far. All right, that’s, the live love and the podcast pleasantries on the heels of that has to come three over twelve thousand pushing thirteen thousand listeners weekly. That’s not a monthly number. That’s each week each episode very glad that you’re with us. Pleasantries to the podcast audience and the affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners. Also throughout the country. Affections to you. I’m very glad that you are listening. Analog. Never let that am fm die, it’s never it’s it’s not going to die. It may be declining. It’s never going to die. Media is too personal. You’re with us affections to you now for greg going. Thank you for being patient. Um, go show the gratitude, you know, all right, okay, let’s, go back to these people. Where do we find? Where do we? Okay, right. Thank you. Thank you. Big request i was school past screening past screening, right? Where do we find? Where do we find him? So typically people think, well, we only have the usual circle of people and they go out and i’m going to use a dating analogy, and so and people go out and right away they think about asking people to become board members after they meet them. But being a board members really the most rarefied form of ask it’s, easier to donate it’s. Easier to be a volunteer it’s. Easier to come to a gala it’s. Easier to be on a host for much time limited not a big ask way at the end of the spectrum for engagement with a non-profit is being a boardmember time, money, reputation, all those things right? So don’t rush into the process, our suggestion for a processes that if you can’t find candidates, think about people who are the well connected people with for people of a certain age. The best roller texas those big role in texas who know everybody in their industry they’d never be your boardmember may because they’re already overcommitted or they’re not quite right, but you go to them with that narrative of your organizations, growth and aspirational future and the kinds of people that you need in the board room to help you get there and you ask them, who does that make you think of in your circles? The more specific you are? We’re looking for a person of color who’s the sepia with a fortune five hundred company, or maybe has technology knowledge, the more likely people going to come to mind in their mental roller decks and give you a suggestion that you say, would you mind calling that person and opening the door for me to go meet with them? They’ll be happy to write. So now, instead of just going to people who are maybe maybe not board candidates, you’re using other people’s networks and using their ability to filter through their contacts to suggest prospects. One, two you’re getting in front of influential people with your aspirational story about where your organization is so it’s a cultivation event, even even if they don’t give you any names or they give you a few, you’ve created the opportunity in front of that person to bring them up to date and show yourself a strategic so that’s a key thing which is don’t rush into rushing to prospects and saying, would you become a boardmember think about some indirect ways and also then cultivate as you screen. Okay, excellent. And you’re doing this with people who know people who have exactly good networks. Good role, exactly right? Good, strong. You can even add ad hoc people to your nominating committee who aren’t board members to help for a limited period time in this process of identifying and screening people. But now these people are coming from your from those folks networks they don’t know you’re or go the way we just said they gotta love your mission ten minutes ago s so we got a quaint thes potential board members with the good work we’re doing and the much better work we could be doing and make them the bridge between those two, right? Exactly. So this is this is not going to be a six week process. No, this is where the best practice for board recruitment coming. Like we need a process. Teo, introduce people to our work. Have at least two interviews i would say with the e d and one with the boardmember i like three. I like to different board encounters, so people offer different judgments, and and the candidate gets to see the different people that be interacting with and then a third thing, which is essential, they have to go out and see the work. Now, when i say this to executive rector’s, first of all, they hold their head in the hands i need boardmember tomorrow. Yeah, well, that’s not realistic, right? The second thing is, if the person doesn’t have time to participate in this process, they’re not gonna have time to show up to board meetings and show up prepared and take a leadership role. So these air enforcing them to show their commitment exactly for you before you invite them? Yes. And they may in good will be excited about your work and the idea of being a boardmember but not really testing it against their reality. These are threshold measures that left both sides figure out. Is this really going to work now? I just heard this at one of the ntcdinosaur views we haven’t played this one. Yet we’re talking about hiring. There was someone who likes three, three, four interviews long hiring processes so that you’re that you’re making the candidate prove their commitment to your mission before you offer him a job there. You got long hiring process, you can’t show up for the fourth time, you know, we will find someone who can well, and that sounds crazy to some people t ask for that, but more often than not, i hear from people we recruited someone looked like a great person on paper, but then we’re disappointed they didn’t show or they didn’t bring them for their full selves to the table when they did show, and you would say, you have yourself to blame because you didn’t you didn’t adequately, uh, you know, they’re not getting their commitment and it’s like a job interview, but the power relationship is more equal. You want to carry out a transparent project process so that either side at some point can say, you know what? I’d like to be helpful, but not as a boardmember maybe i’ll serve on a committee on the host committee or a board committee without being a full member. Excellent. That’s a home run if you don’t let him on the board if they’re going to be end up being one, these disappointments very important i’m now seeing the time that’s required, and i don’t feel like i have that kind of time to be aborted. I’d like to help you some other what there’s, another component arches, you’re not wasting any of your time in the search sound. First of all, you’re going to have to go through a lot of candidates. Most people don’t have the time to be boardmember the best ones already committed. Yeah, right, but what we want is a process that says, i’m i love what i hear about your guy position i love what i see, i can’t be a boardmember and then you want to say, well, there is another way you could be involved. So the idea is you have a spectrum of involvement with boardmember ship at the end that the most demanding part, but you’re actually trying to get everybody you connect with who responds to your mission to be connected in some way. Donor-centric attendee volunteer, a member of a board committee without being on the board, there’s so many ways to engage those people, so you’re not losing that time because they didn’t become a boardmember you’ve added people who are supporters, but maybe not at that very demanding level of very boardmember all right, what do you say to that ceo like you saying ceo but executive director that says, i need boardmember is next week, what do you tell them? I need to raise the money for my kidscollege education next week, but it’s not gonna happen in a week things take to do it well and strategically, it takes time. If you start to do this on a systematic year round basis, you start to build the bench, you should have a regular process cubine ongoing process, al, you’re watching these people who are volunteers, and you’re treating them well and maybe in two thousand eighteen, they didn’t have the time to be a boardmember, but in two thousand nineteen, all of a sudden they discover this is one of the most important things in my civic life. I’m ready to step up so once you start the process, it’s really like farm team through teo being a boardmember it gets easier and easier. Because you’re feeding it it’s, not an ad hoc one shot think ongoing exactly be are going through your right, and as you revitalize your board, you’re placing this function in the governance slash nominating committee. So also it’s moving partially off the shoulders of the e d this should be in a well performing bored the revitalisation of the board process through bringing new people on it should be aboard function, driven by board members. How do we empower them? We just have a couple minutes left. How do we empower them once they’re on the board to hit the ground running as change agents? Great question, so they’re at their at their point, twenty minutes there at their point of maximum enthusiasm and then begin a one, right? So we actually say, work out a plan for engagement, right? So here here, the things that are coming up where we’re going to want to do fund-raising what are your ideas? Where can you be involved? Here are openings on committees, what most interests you were ready to make you committee chair or if you’re not ready, we have a boardmember who will mentor you so that within six months you could play a bigger role. So you’re actually reviewing all your needs with the person right up front and engaging them to commit up front rather than hang back a year, see how it goes, i’ll figure out my place. No, no, we want them engage from the gun. All right, actually, maximum, you mentioned mentor. You and i have been on you and i have talked about this before. Board he’s. Thirty seconds on the value of aboard, buddy. Absolutely essential. You know, particular someone’s. Never been on a board before they come in the room. There are all kinds of acronyms. There’s. An existing culture among that complacent board of friends and family or whatever it is you need. Someone who’s easing you in explaining what’s going on that’s a familiar face in the room when you walk in because you’ve met with them before. So aboard, buddy is an essential piece of that onboarding process. Very smart guy. We gotta leave it there. Greg cohen. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for sharing he’s at greg. Cause cause effective is at cause effective and cause effective dot org’s. Next week. Gene takagi returns with unrelated business. Income tax and fringe benefits for your employees under the new tax law. Do you know this? If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing to radio weinger cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com bye tello’s, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s, our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Family roots in the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and i agree. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. Hello, this bruce chamois, coast of the web design and technology coach. Join me and my guests every tuesday from eight to nine pm. As we discussed the latest in web design, social media, marketing, search, engine optimization and technology way also discussed popular topics, including ward press, making money. All i better cool rankings and more every month way. Also feature the best unsigned music from around the world right here on talk radio dot n y c. You’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sumpter, potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. 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That’s, the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, thursday’s twelve, noon on talk radio. Dot upleaf. Durney you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz buy-in

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s our three hundred fifty and show you heard that live music scott stein is with us and lots of other people. Thank you, scotty, you’re welcome. We’ve got two listeners of the week first. Dan kimble he’s, a product specialist at apple, owes software he’s always tweeting and retweeting aboutthe show very grateful. This week, he posted congrats to tony martignetti and his upcoming anniversary show, grateful for you’re and mr show, grateful for your promotion of non-profit work. Dan, i’m grateful to you for your support of non-profit radio. Thank you so much. Congratulations on being a listener the week on show number three hundred fifty also fund-raising fox they’re on the road right now between buffalo grove, illinois and downtown chicago. They tweeted that this will be great road trip listening to which i retorted, this is like an hour trip from buffalo grove to chicago that’s like that’s a commute? Not a not a, not a that’s, not a road trip, but okay, if you insist, maybe in chicago that’s a road trip congratulations. Fund-raising fox drive carefully even though you’re only going across the street, thanks for being with us on three fifty oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with copper. Oh, poor foreign yuria! If you wet me down with the idea that you missed today’s show, it is the three hundred fifty of show seventh anniversary of non-profit radio coast clear meyerhoff is with us with me live in the studio. We’ve got that live music and more to come give aways from pursuing and cure a coffee all our contributors jane takagi, maria semple and amy sample ward, our sponsor ceos are going to be with us. I’ve got new am and fm affiliate stations to introduce we got non-profit medio math quiz and i’m already exhausted. We’re on facebook live! Check us out right now from the tony martignetti non-profit radio page facebook live! We’re also live tweeting, join us! Use the hashtag non-profit radio on tony’s take two thank you. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com tomorrow half welcome back to the studio, tony. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Wonderful to be here for the three hundred and fiftieth show. Thank you. Yes, i love it. You’re the creative producer of the show. Of course. Thank you. I helped you start the show from one back when it was the tony martignetti show for two weeks back in the day two thousand ten also? Yes, of course. There’s a seventh anniversary seventeen minus ten seventh anniversary president of plant giving agency that’s me, you’ll find claire at pg agency, dot com and at claire says z what’s going on climber half what’s up in your what’s up in the pg agency. Well, we’re working on a lot of different projects. I’ve got a lot of wonderful clients and working with parkland hospital foundation in dallas. Cool, a couple of other clients in texas and a couple clients in florida and ah, united way and lots of different people. And i’m staying here in new york for a couple days of my friend bette’s house in westchester county, and i drove into the city this morning with the convertible top down and here i am, cool it’s a beautiful day for a top you drive to scott stein. Welcome back to studio. Thank you for having me. Great seeing my pleasure. Of course. Scott’s dying. The composer of our theme song. My voice is cracked theme song like i’m fourteen cheap red wine of course you’re gonna be playing cheap red wine on dh another wine related song as well you’ll find him at scott stein music dot com don’t go to scott’s stein dot com i did that that somebody it’s an australian motivations motivational speaker don’t go to stop sign dot com go to scott’s in-kind music dot com and he’s at scott’s time music also so glad you’re with us. Great beer. Cool. Cool. Uh, we got, uh we got track record on the phone. He is the ceo of pursuant to years, sponsor of non-profit radio. The renewing way with us to the end of the year. So grateful for that. So so grateful for pursuance, sponsorship and love of non-profit radio trade ryker, welcome to the show. Tony. How you doing today? It’s? Great it’s. A beautiful day for three. Fifty how are you doing in where you from? In texas. Where? You calling from? I’m in the dallas area. The big d. Okay, cool. I want to thank you. I want to thank you so much. Not only for being here today, but for pursuing sponsorship of non-profit radio. Well, tell me, first of all, congratulations. Three hundred fifty episodes. What a milestone. Unbelievable. We appreciate so much. See great work that you and the other sponsors provide the opportunity for you to do for the non-profit states your gift way. Love what you do, and they’re just proud to be a sponsor. Thanks, tony. Thank you so much, trent. Um, you you are so generous at pursuing there’s there’s. This constant resource is available. I mean, i’m talking about them every single week. It’s webinars info. Grams. Content papers? Uh, it’s it’s. Amazing how generous you are. What? What? Acquaintance with what’s coming up for pursuing the rest of this year. Well, a lot going on. Thank you for that. We really believe in giving back the non-profit states in any way. We can. We learn a lot by working with our clients were in partnership with them always. We’re always thirsty. Learn mohr and then share what we learn. Through a variety of webinars and white papers and other things that we do, no matter how large or how small you are, we’re hopeful ableto help some folks out, you know, for the second half of the year, we’ve been working hard on something that over the years we’ve learned things. One of the things that i think most important is that the smaller non-cash profits that don’t have the resources to hyre firms to help him out of that at a deep level, we’re trying to make some of those tools more accessible youand your listeners have known that we’ve been working on that for a while, wade got some exciting things on the horizon to make better sense of all that data out there that that folks have and be able to make that more actionable and getting better results without having that we’re not having to spend a lot of money, so we’re driven by by creating tools, you know, i think that that’s an opportunity out there right now, there’s more competition than ever out there for the same dollars and stay on top of mind for your constituents and being able to keep up. In that to a conversation is really important, and while there are a lot of great point tools out there would like to call them, and we encourage everybody to use things like that that are free or very inexpensive with non-profit states being able to pull that data together being ableto you have the appropriate relevant conversations to your here’s donors and your prospects and volunteers on your advocate, you are really important so that some of the stuff we’re working on cool and, you know, small and midsize non-profits that’s the audience, you know, where we’re big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, and i’m always saying every week, actually, a couple times a week pursuant data driven technology enable ana, i know and that’s that’s a big no that is a challenge area for small and midsize shops. Yeah, not always accessible, i think you know the big non-profits have a lot more resources, and while we appreciate the opportunity to work with them and learn from them, i’m really driven for the drive system for the quote unquote little guy, the small, the medium sized non-profit that’s passionate about what they’re doing and that most of the time spent, you know, driving for the mission of the organization and fund-raising is an important aspect of that, but how do we make that more simple? How do we make it more accessible? How do we make it more affordable? And so i think that the market will be really excited about some of the stuff that we’ll be bringing out twenty eighteen by way of tools to apply all of that. We’re taking the concepts that you hear out there about business intelligence and artificial intelligence, predictive modeling, and we’re going to simplify that to make it as easy as the way you might use google maps and make it easy for the smaller, medium sized non-profit put it to use and to raise more money and more connected to their constituents. That’s what’s really important, excellent trench. Well, i look forward to sharing the word of all that stuff as it comes out with our with our audience with our over twelve thousand growing on die again. I know you’ve got to go and i thank you very much again for your support of non-profit radio. Thanks so much for being with us, trent. Congratulations, tony. And everybody out there keep supporting tony and the great work that he does. Keep up the good work for your non-profit have a great show, tony, and keep up. Keep it going. All right. Cool. Thank you very much, trent. So long. All right. We’re gonna go out for a first break. We got tons more coming up. Oh, my god. We’re just scratching the surface for god’s sake. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent reminded we’re on facebook live got some folks with us shout out tio maria simple is there dave lynn, thank you so much. Uh, who else we got? Gary astro cool welcome shoutouts to facebook live! You can join us at the tony martignetti non-profit radio page were also live tweeting used the hashtag non-profit radio. Join the conversation on twitter um, we got a we got to give away let’s do a giveaway we’ve got got coffee gif ts from cura coffee and we’re giving our first pound of coffee too silver mark he’s at this is ah, his twitter idea at silver mark make-a-wish did three hundred fifty is awfully nifty returns of the day for those great things you say i mean, you know that’s, you got to give you got to give some kudos for creativity not great! Those are not great lyrics, but that’s just our okay cheats memorable! I think he may have used it may be recycled. He may have used that for another contest. I don’t know, but that silver mark, thank you so much you’re going to get a pound of coffee from cura coffee and claire, won’t you tell us about your coffee? Cure a coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. With every cup of courage, you’re joined your effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. We are direct trade, a direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you, creating organic smiles beyond the cup. Cure coffee, dotcom. Thank you, claire. In that beautiful radio voice, she’s got that. She talked pretty talk pretty good. My abc radio cbs radio serious. You left off serial. I work too serious. Serious. Next time. Don’t be modest. I was then except when they launched on september twelfth, two thousand won cool. Oh, that xero auspicious. That you know that and i get it. You know, again shadow to cure a coffee. Coffee. The ceo is a dentist. He’s practicing dentist that’s. Why? When you get a pound of cure a coffee that’s, why they when you get a compound of your coffee, the gift goes, goes to silver. Mark will include a toothbrush and i think luke’s dental floss. But there’s aural. Care? Yes, because that’s. Why, he says. He says expanding sustainable dental care to remote communities they’re they’re giving back to the communities where the coffee beans are raised. Dental care, they’re giving money for dental care in those communities, communities and in central and south america. On he is a he’s a practicing dentist. He couldn’t be with us. I beg him to couldn’t make it he’s between patients, you know, he’s doing a root canals. You know, it’s got saliva around everything all right? Um, scotty, you cannot i want you to play first song for us. Sure. Um again, scott scott stein, now a pianist, songwriter, vocalist, composer, arranger tell us what you’re gonna play first. I’m gonna play a tune from the record that i just put out just a little bit ago the records called travelling companion and the song is called wine soaked tart we’re keeping ah, wine theme here we do. We got cheap red wine, wine soaked tart. People are going to get the wrong impression of me here, you know, but it’s ah it’s a little tune that way have this idea that as songwriters in his artist we have to be, you know, really down in the dumps to really, like, create great music, you know, you have to really be eo, suffer for your art and it’s not true. It helps it’s, not total teacher. But this is something that is not what kind of zooming out and kind of, you know, being grateful for for what you have i was i was on honeymoon with my wife when i woke up in the middle of the night with the idea for the song, okay? And scott stein, wine soaked heart off his newest album, traveling companion. Dahna i love what you give me. You lying so tired, let me ramble through the square like this september breeze is used to know, nor would you give me your line so tar, let me pull it all together. Then they pull my fuse, paul. Sametz it’s six in the morning and i can’t sleep. It was lying about a strange hotel bed. Buy-in sounds of my lover. Do not keep me waiting. Just the ryland to the rumblings bouncing around inside my head. I what would you give me your wine? So tar, let me revel, sing in the shadow of the spanish hill. You know what, give you wine so let me pull it all together. Limit my fuse part. It’s been a long time coming, but we made it here going to step out on the block, and the noise is going to get off the grid. Tune out everybody but the one i love. Let the world revolve around us like a couple of barefoot kid. Oh, yeah. Love to give me a wine. So tar buy-in let me ram on the land of the authors in the poet it’s on the scene. Lorts give you wine. So tar. Let me pull it all together to limit my bar for my future. Call it predictable. I don’t care. U b roll footage. Cue the montage here. The movie strings. You only get so many years. Be so self aware before the exterior starts to fade in. On this left are the important thing. Duitz because you want forever with a wild, wild heart. What would you give me your line? So tar? So down, breathing him. Don’t try to think so much law to give me a line. So tar, let me pull it all together. My fuse, par. Put my fears apart. Buy-in got stein one so tart thie album is traveling companion. Get the album at scott stein music dot com scottie, thank you so much. Thank you, absolutely love it, love it and there’s more to come. We got we got course, cheap red wine coming up, indulge me while i announce a couple of new affiliate stations. Would you please? All right. W p h w in harpswell, maine live listener love to you. Ah, philly. In effect, i should say affiliate affections to w p h w so glad you’re with us. They’re in the freeport brunswick area of maine, just northeast of portland. Welcome. Welcome to the affiliate community. W p h w also cabe og ki bong ninety seven point nine fm in bandon, oregon. And that is oregon, not oregon. There’s no. E at the end of oregon, oregon offgrid admonished it’s, oregon. Brandon, oregon. There are pacifica station that’s. Very cool on. They happen to be all along the pacific coast in county, oregon. Now, why’re they k bog. I found out k bog glamarys come off cranberries. Very organ is a very big cranberry producing state. Really? And this region of of oregon is bandon is the cranberry capital of oregon. Really cool. Have you been to argue? Okay, bob, i’ve been to oregon. I’ve been to portland. I’m joined a portland for the organ for the first time this october. And then i will only have two states in the us. I have not visited well, that’s very and north when you’re so young through so i need to oh, thank you. I need to get a speaking engagement in alaska and in alaska, north dakota. Okay, that should be well. North dakota is easy, one for you. North dakota sametz least visited st in united states. Listen, alaska people threat well, the glaciers that while there, while we have them, okay, that that’s very cool, you’re going tohave portland. You’re really a great food scene. Great fruiting, love, ah, really quirky place. So our new affiliate stations w p h w and k b o g. Welcome to the affiliate community affiliate affections to those listeners. I’ve got more stations coming up. We got jean takagi on the line. I know we do. Jean takagi is the principle of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations. More group he’s at g tak e ta ke yet it’s. The wildly popular non-profit lob log dot com. Hello, jean takagi. Happy anniversary, tony. Congratulations on three. Fifty. Thank you, man. That’s so cool. Thank you very much. I’m so glad you’ve been with us so so many years from the very early days you were you were one of the very first shows, like you were in, like the first, fourth or fifth show or so and, uh, contributor sense. Really geever it’s been awesome, but you have to come back and visit me here in san francisco. I know. Well, you should come. You know, you could come to new york. I did visit you once in san francisco years ago. But you could come to new york, too. That invitation is open. You could come to the beach in north carolina if you like peaches. That’s tony’s having a big, fat oregon. Maybe we can all meet there in oregon. That’s. Not too far. Yeah, but i’m thinking about a fall trip, actually out west. So i will. I will let you know. Just you know, jeanne, i i emailed this to you a lot, but i want to say it to you. You know, i’m so grateful for the time that you put in for the listeners. Of small from small and non-profit med small and midsize shops it’s a non-profit radio so grateful for the time contribution you make, you know, month after month, you red block posts about the show. When you’re gonna be on, you’re a terrific i just i’m so grateful to have you as our legal contributor. Thank you so much, james. Thank you, tony. Thank you for making all of this information from all of your great contributors available. Teo non-profit sector it’s it’s. Invaluable. Thank you. Uh, what do you got going on, gene? But you got a little little takeaway. Will tip you wanna leave? Leave us with? Sure. You know, i thought i’d talk really briefly about having a politician appear in your charity event. We recently had way did have someone forced chamber. Yeah, it got a lot of attention, so i didn’t talk about that specifically wanted to make sure everybody knew that political leaders can be invited to speak on issues of public policy and issues of importance that charity events. But you’ve got to be careful about it, so make sure you know five oh one see threes aren’t allowed to engage in election. Nearing, so provide instructions to the politicians or their staff, people about not campaign campaigning or speaking on political campaign issues. Uh, you know, at the charity event, and if they start campaigning, you might choose to interrupt politely and strategically, if possible. You know, sometimes that may not be possible if it’s the president of the united states, that might be very, very politically challenging to do that. But afterwards, don’t wait long at the end of the speech of possible make a statement about the charity being a partisans uh, organization don’t wait several days and have the statement come from the top of your leadership. So jean, what is the worst case scenario that could happen to a five a one? C three non-profit if, for instance, a candidate came and super campaigned and broke all those rules and you didn’t do anything about it, what’s what could happen? What’s the outcome right now, the rules say the remedy is taking away its five a onesie three tax exempt status so that’s the rule you know, right now in the political climate, president trump and the republican party platform say that they want to get rid of that rule, but they haven’t gotten rid of that ruled yet, so they would actually like to open up election hearing toe all five, twenty three public charities. But that hasn’t happened yet, and it may never happen. We hope that it doesn’t happen, but the rule right now don’t let it happen because you could lose your tax. Exempt that claire’s got another question for another question. Have you heard about a cherry that has lost its tax exempt status? Because of that? Yeah, it happens pretty rarely and particularly much more rarely. I haven’t heard of any since the new administration. But you would see a handful every year lose their tax exempt status for just that reason. Okay. Interesting. Cool. Very timely topic as always. Jean jean takagi, always on top of things s oh, so grateful, gene. Thank you so much. Thanks. What a pleasure. Thanks, tony. Thanks, clarence. Got have a great thank you. Thanks for your good wishes. So long, gene. We got we got alex career alt-right not not yet. Okay, we’ll get to him. Um, let’s. Um, let’s. Take our little break. Then we got we got we got a little business. Actually, but we have tons of stuff coming up. You still got the math quiz? We got more giveaways. I got morning am and fm stations. We got live listener love coming up. I gotta do the live listening. But look at this for those of us, those on facebook like this list of live listeners amazing it’s a scrolling off the printer, the live listeners we’ve got. And, of course, on the heels of that comes the affiliate affections on the podcast pleasantries, cheap red wine coming up all that first you got to give a shout to pursuant we know them. We just met the ceo but i got eggs. I got to do my promotional thing because i do want you to check them out for the free resource. Is that that trade? And i were talking about infographics, content, papers, webinars. And even even if it’s paid trainings and we have a great prize coming up great grand prize that’s all i am permitted to say at this moment about the grand prize but it’s related to this? Just check them out for resource is tons of stuff for free. They are data driven. It’s it’s. Not just a tagline for them. They help you work with data sorted out, figured out, use it, so you’re not overwhelmed. Check him out. Pursuing dot com quick resource is all the stuff is right there, and we’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. They make millennial money, these air, these air really cool. Claire, they it’s a night for your charity, it’s, live music, dancing, stand up comedy, and they work in fund-raising through spelling bee that’s fun, because millennials are really spelling peer-to-peer. The resident millennial. I feel like i have to confirm this, okay, when you write your lyrics, they’re spelled correctly, yes, what, nobody sigh, and nobody sees them, right. Okay, check out they have a video, they’re really cool. Video show you what a night is like for your charity, it’s, that we b e spelling dot com and then just talked to alexx career, and hopefully we’re gonna be talking to him shortly. And i gotta do tony steak to now, which is my thank you too the way it goes from the people who are just with us today live on facebook hello, thank you for that. But the listeners the over twelve thousand listeners i’m just so grateful that the audience has grown so much in seven years. Thank you, thank you for being part of non-profit radio the trend is always upwards. I’m grateful for that if you let me in your inbox every thursday through the insider alerts, which if you’re not getting them, you can get them at tony martignetti dot com. Thank you for letting me in your inbox every single week. If it’s youtube our fans, their subscribers, they’re on youtube there’s a new video every week twitter, thanks so much for following me reach meeting this show tweeting about the show just enormous, enormously grateful i just got us you know this is an anniversary time to time to say thank you, thanks so much. And speaking of the latest video aside from the three fiftieth which you don’t need now because you got to show you don’t need the previous video, you might check. Out the one that i did most recently before that it was feels good in sixty nine and that’s all i can say about that video, you just have to watch to see what the sixty nine is all about. And, of course, that’s at tony martignetti dot com feels good in sixty nine, and that is tony stick to we got maria simple online. I’ll bet we don’t have a reassembly yet. Wow. Okay, i’ll tell you what, let’s do a little math quiz clay morrow, because i’m really good at math. So exactly, um, and i’m a lawyer. So we picked a non-profit radio math quiz. So you know, we’re gonna sing a song writer writer on dh lawyer, former engineering student i story story for you to bring your slide rule uh, i can not write. Or your engineer, you may need your engineering calculator for those. Ok. Ok. So here’s here’s the math quiz? Because tony’s been doing this show for a long time now, since since twenty ten, it’s a lot of shows that he’s very prolific. We have three hundred fifty shows, so i’d like to kind of figure out some things that some numbers that we’ve accomplished over the years. So would you say how many guests average per show phone and live in studio? Yeah. Live in studio and then plus you gotta bring in the conference guests. I mean, sometimes there’s like three and four panellists. I’d say average. Okay, average, uh, one point seven three let’s. Say two. Okay, let’s round it. So three hundred eighty shows. Two guest per show we have. Who gets it first? How many is that? I hope that i hope that some hope that seven hundred, seven hundred okay, so how many steps are there to climb up the stairs from seventy second west? Seventy second street to the studio here. Oh, you could take the staircase around here. I do it all the time. How many steps? Which is saying? Oh, sam, sam sametz again. Twenty. So twenty steps, times two hundred fifty shows is that’s. Got to be that’s. Gotta be the same. Seven thousand fifty seven thousand. Scott so you did bring a slide rule? I yes. Yes. It’s right in here. All right, all right, all right. So, tony and scott, how many times during each show would you say scott’s music is played during each show. Oh, that’s a cool oh, that’s like how many times is the number one appear on a dollar bill? One, two, three for i’d say it’s probably five. I’m thinking five so what’s time to a two hundred fifty. I don’t know the seven, seventeen, fourteen hundred plus three. Fifteen degree was kottler against that’s got with all right. All right, i swear i’m not i’m not just like peeking over the over the engineering because a ringer is i didn’t know that, it’s. All right? I don’t know. Who’s going to bring her. Okay. How many times have you taken the show on the road? Oh, my gosh! Conferences. Oh, that’s. Probably like, i’m afraid that’s an easy one. Well, ten. So let’s say eleven. So what percentage i can’t even do? The percentage of eleven of the three hundred fifty shows are were shows on the road but you cut me off the delays. I get more than one interview per unconference less now last non-profit technology cover. That was twenty, thirty two interviews in one conference. So there’s thirty two right there, right in three, two and half days. I got thirty two interviews, i’d say probably come away with twenty times eleven conferences. That will be two hundred twenty interviews out of no, that can’t be right. Two hundred twenty. That sounds too high. No that’s. Not right. What am i doing wrong? It’s probably not that high it’s probably it’s. Probably been like one hundred. Oh, those air segments that you’re messing me up. Segments two segments per show. So seven hundred segments. Two hundred let’s. Say, two hundred something two hundred twenty five of those maybe have been conferences or so two hundred out of seven hundred segments. Okay, so the last questions for may out of seven years of shows, i probably come and do it live. Maybe, like, three times a year. So i’ve been here maybe twenty one times. Uh, yeah. In the early days. Yeah. You’re blowing me off in the early days? No, i invited you all time. You never came up? No, i yeah, don’t twenty more. That sounds like a lot. And you know, the last time i was here in the studio, i left tony and i saw another man who works in broadcasting. I met someone. Really? Really. Cool. Right after i left tony show. Oh, you met lester. Lester holt? Yeah, i went down to nbc and lester home. You’ve treated me a picture. You facebook me a picture of you and lester. So today stepped down, you know, the talking alternative studios where we are live on nbc, and then i guess you could go down, continue going down on the show to last. So what are you doing in new york? I said i have clients here and stuff like this came from this non-profit radio show. Oh, and cause i realized later that lester worked in radio. So radio people like even if they end up working in tv or whatever, they still really love stick todo zoho he’s. His eyes lit up when i said, ready brady was cool. Absolutely, absolutely. All right. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for the non-profit. Your math quiz created, produced. This is what she’s, the creative producer. Well, what a surprise. No surprise. Came up with this last night. Like eleven. Thirty my maria semple, decide your simple cold. And i was actually calling on her a little early because she was not at fault when i said maria symbols online, but she is now anyway. Fremery a sample. Hello there, how are you our social media contributor? Immense. I’m sorry prospect restarts contributor. I’m doing great, our prospect research contributors. You’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com and she’s at maria semple on, and she has been a long standing oh gosh, but going back also many years hyre contributor to non-profit radio. Thank you, maria, thank you so much for the time you put in a month after month for our listeners. Thanks so much for my pleasure and congratulations on three hundred fifty and looking forward to three hundred fifty more. Oh oh, my god, they’ll be seven hundred. Okay, i don’t know what i’ll be another seventy years. Oh, my god will be forty. What is that? Twenty, twenty four? Um now cool. Where you now? Where you calling from? Maria semple? I am in new jersey. You’re home in jersey, okay, cool. Very simple loves the new song you facebook live. Do you love scott’s new song? Thank you. Yes, i did. I really liked it a lot. I’m gonna have to go see where i can find it. I think he said it was scott stein music dot com. So i jot that down that’s exactly right. And get the album. Traveling companion. Yeah, she lives out facebook live. All right. Um, summary of you. You got a little tidbit for us today in respect, research land. What do you see? It’s one on there? Yeah, well, you know, i thought it was just kind of focused on teamwork a little bit because, uh, sort of staying in the spirit of, you know, your three hundred fifty shows wouldn’t have happened with without a lot of teamwork there in the studio and from your regular contributors and so forth and all the conferences you’ve attended and really focusing on how important prospect researches to the development process. But that really it’s only one component of the development process on and really try to encourage folks if if you’re wearing that, that prospect research had either as a your sole function within the organization, or maybe one of the functions that you do and your everyday job to try not to work in a vacuum and to try and get a seat at the table. If you can try and see if you will be allowed to attend those development committee meetings and so forth to really play a role in the overall development cycle so that information that you’re able to glean from important conversations can be incorporated into the work that you d’oh alright, it takes a village. It takes a village, is what you’re saying. I think it takes a community text community to raise money and number, and, well, of course, non-profit radio is a part of that, but so is prospect research. All right, the team approach i love thank you for shouting out the team. We do have a great team. We do have an excellent, cool team. I shot them out of the end of every show. Claire scott, sam. Oh, our social media, social media, of course. Social media, susan chavez, all part of the team. Yes, thank you for that. Thank you so much. Cool. Maria, i want to thank you so much again for being part of the show. Thank you very much. And again, wishing you many, many more. Thank you, maria. I gotta give shut out to people who are with us on facebook live. We got we got tons more still. Aunt mary. I know her on david insta with us. Gary astro jimbo xero welcome, jim dahna gillespie rivera ray meyer mary-jo chamberlain michelle libonati oh, my god. Old good friends. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. You could join us on facebook live at tony martignetti non-profit radio page and we’re also live tweeting and use the hashtag non-profit radio. Is that true? That’s true, isn’t it? Um, let’s. See, we got a make on line. Scott. Sam. Any buy-in the line? Okay, then, uh, let’s. Go to i got some new ah, so new affiliate stations and i’d like to welcome. We’ll continue bilich community absolutely am fm stations throughout the country. We got a new one. Que tiene que eighty eight point one fm carbondale, colorado and w c s q one o five point nine fm radio coble skill in upstate new york. I know. That you know, couples skill. Well, i went to plattsburgh state, so i know you would know. Yeah, i know. Yes. Did you know is it’s uh, you know, that’s coble skill, not kabul skill. It’s it was called didn’t know. I didn’t know that i do now, but it’s spelled like kabul, but it’s coble told only one day only one b all right, thank you very much. Like right would be no e at the end of oregon. Okay, you’re right. Couple would be all right. My gobble kabul it’s coble it’s called bilich latto global scale koegler and i’m so glad they’re with us that’s w c s q one o five point nine fm andi i know couple skills. I got a ticket there once. Yeah, it doesn’t. Eighty eight, i think route eighty eight. I don’t know. Interesting fremery take out there, but i’ve got to take a lot of other places in upstate. You got you got a tear, right? Hearing even all the good places. Saratoga, you got a parking ticket right here on seventy second street after one show. That’s a parking ticket that was parking moving violations, or you’re in the big time. Yeah, i did get one. You’re you’re coping skill. I’m pretty sure it was on eighty eight. You gotta hire a lawyer when you get a speeding ticket. That’s the best thing to do. I had to do that once, actually in virginia? Yep. Virginia. You know what? Because anything over eighty, of course, that was not me. I saw it on a sign. But if you happen to be one who was pulled over for dui strike more than eighty is reckless driving. I’ve been there. You get you get a misdemeanor. You know, mr metoo convey. Imagine if you sign the back of that ticket. Mr metoo conviction in virginia for doing over more than twenty miles per hour over the speed limit or over eighty miles per hour. But you could. So i’ve heard you can hire an attorney. You know, they send you letters and for a very reasonable about they’ll take care of it. And the lawyer that took care of mine, i chose his letter out of about twenty letters because his name was will robinson. Oh, cool. Thank will robinson. I didn’t get that was virginia. That was virginia. Virginia. I didn’t get here because i would have picked him through. Thank you. Will robinson? Yes. Be careful in virginia on ninety five. I’ve heard it could be bad. So, yes, eso brand new stations now in main oregon, colorado in new york. So lots of new affiliate affections going out when? When we get to that. So so many affiliates do we have a terrestrial radio? Couple dozen. I really don’t know the exact number. Look where they ended up partying more than twenty. Woman. Twenty. So a score score was more than a score. We gotta score. Plus more than stone. Just don’t get that matthew’s teo what’s that teo give our leaders. Tio penn was that old word for a for a ten cent piece. Whatever a dime in the tie. I can’t remember to bits. We got to bet your two bits worth of that isn’t isn’t cubine oh, is it that those dying what’s two bits i don’t want it was a dime. Now two bits a quarter. We’re almost a two bit we could were around to putting wimpy say, it’s worth burglar hamburger um okay, let’s. See, uh, i want to i want to. Do some more music. Yeah, i’m ready for more music. Scotty stein. Oh, it’s, time for the time, for the theme of non-profit latto now, this is this is legit. I never stole this music from scott start. We have, we have no way of really license, license and he’s been with the show ever since. It’s a couple of years now, you know, i didn’t go back and look at when the licensing agreement started, but if you have been a few years, yeah, cheap red wine, this is scott’s dying cheaper what what’s the album, the cheaper ones snusz from a two thousand nine record, i did called jukebox and get their jukebox. I’ve seen him live ilsen him in and bars clubs. I’ve seen him do cheap red wine a few times. Scott stein, the theme song for non-profit radio, cheap red wine, all right. To be, they just keep on talking sooner. Later, i figure around just so what you mean. You see, in romantic advice from a village, i’m looking for answers upon a tv screen. Buy-in wait can agree on nothing. We can’t tell our ups from our downs. We’re disappointed in each other. Nothing baby. And i love that we have found. You know, you used to find me charming, but i can’t figure out how. And you said you thought it was handsome. But doesn’t matter now. So keep falling. Five foot sounds as long as your time. Well, because i haven’t got any promises about a cheap one and down. You know, some girls live in diamonds. And they won’t talk to the cut of clothing that i wear. Well, i’m reporting for the good stuff, and you’re too easily distracted to care, relying got too many options, and so i’m gonna do the best that i can, but you have some competition one day when i’m a wealthy man said, you know, you used to find a job, but i can’t figure out how you see your toes, and it doesn’t matter now. So came falling from my post as loans. Your time will allow, because i’ve got a runny promises by achi, brenna wine and wait let’s, raise the glasses. You drink the better days. The other people’s kids are. They don’t like the things we say, and i’m thinking, because of everything that i want flash nothing. Three signs his work permit for each other, as long as with you, nobody else in my nobody’s way. What? You know, you used to find the jumping, but i can’t figure out how and you see, your father was handsome. Never mind it. Don’t matter now, so get for from a punch on monday, tom. Allow about her any promises, a cheaper one. Teo. Yeah, man, that song is under my skin. I can’t help it. I just love i just love cheap red wine from the first moment i heard i knew it had to be the thing that theme song thank you so much. Thank you for your, you know, for communion to have me on and getting congratulations every fifty and, uh, you know, supporting local independent music. Absolutely. Absolutely love it. Thank you. I’m glad you’re part of the show chanpreet out every time. Every time we got we got alex career alex were called and he’s the ceo of we’d be spelling you hear me? Talk about it every single every single week. Super cool spelling bee fundraisers we be spelling dot com. Hey, alex. Career. Hey, what’s up. Tony, how you doing? I’m doing great. How are you? I’m doing fantastic. Thanks so much for having me on for the three hundred and fifty of the exciting stuff. Absolutely. I just wanted to hear you tell people. You know, in your own words what we be spelling is all about, and i’m grateful that you’re part of the show week after week after week. So, you know, give us give us the short version. What? What? What tell me about we’d be spelling absolutely. So we’d be selling the lifetime of game show. We have a live band with comedian judges. What we do is we take this wacky event repair with non-profit and we use it a za fundraiser. So we start peer-to-peer campaigns with all of the spellers. They raised a bunch of money like marathon runners in the lead up to the event. And we come together. We have ah, party of an event that it’s spelling bee only in name, but feels a lot more like comedy. Game show. Yes, cool! I love that it’s all it’s, all entertainment i’m you know i’m always saying, is that it’s not your seventh grade fundez not your seventh grade spelling bee, not you. It is not your grandmother’s, not your grandmother spelling that. What do you got coming up? Anything exciting? Going share? Yeah, so we’ve been really busy this year. We’ve been doing about two to three events a month from the top of the year axel next big event is august twenty third in brooklyn were going to be part of the brooklyn comedy. Festival so that’s a really fun event we’re partnering with. They tell you to raise the money at a big event with a whole bunch of comedians participating in fellers that august twenty third at union pool in williamsburg, brooklyn. Excellent. Excellent. Yes, and it’s a night for your charity, it’s ah, it’s fund-raising for your charity individually. S o you know, check out the video. We be e spelling dot com and then just talked to alexx. I mean, you could see what a what a what a cool guy is, right? I mean, it’s, no trouble. No trouble. All right. Appreciate it, alex. My pleasure. Thank you for calling in. Thanks so much for being part of the show. For your sponsorship. Of course. In two to three hundred fifty and three hundred fifty more shows. Thanks so much. Thanks so much. Let’s. Go teeny sample war. Who? Thank you. Thank you. Alex let’s, go to any sample ward. I know she’s on. Hello, amy. Sample ward. How are you? Hello. I’m doing well. Congrats on three. Fifty. Thank you. Aimee semple ward, our social media contributor. Ceo of intend the non-profit technology network. She’s at amy rs. Ward the ours for rene. Um and thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, i can’t believe that. I mean, i remember five years ago getting to be on the show. Can you believe that it’s been five years? I know you were on your guest on the one hundredth. You’re a guest on the one hundred, and then i just fell in love with the whole idea of prospect of sorry mixing him up social media and being on the show every single month. And, uh, yeah, two hundred fifty shows ago. It’s. Amazing. I know. Five years. Absolutely. So. So, you know, there are there were tools that didn’t exist five years ago that now we get to talk about on the show. Indeed, there were indeed there were so glad so. And let me say to you, i am grateful for the time that you put in every month to educate non-profit radio listeners in small and midsize non-profits thank you so much. Amy really means a lot to me. Thank oh, my god. It’s. My pleasure to get to share. Cool. Thanks. You give us. We just got a minute or so. Give us something you’d like to share. Well, one thing that i was thinking about that i will not put any any political commentary around, but i was reflecting earlier this morning about being on the show, talking about social media five years ago. And would we have ever thought five years ago that we would have politicians using the same tools that organizations are using right, like, five years ago, it was such a difference reality when it came to that, and now it’s normal, that articles would be quoting a tweet or a facebook post or facebook live stream, you know, from from d c i think it’s really interesting what that will mean going forward? Yeah, i think five years ago, politicians were just kind of figuring out whether twitter is something they should put their name on, is it? Is it safe for me to be associated with this platform now? It’s zits fundamental and you’re way behind if you’re not, you know? Yeah, i mean, we have, you know, elected officials using facebook live stream when there, you know, doing presentations on the floor, how does that change their relationship to their constituents? I think i think it would mean a lot. Get shifted pretty quickly. Okay, cool. Wait, what did you have something you want to know? We got it. Okay, we gotta let me go and we’re happy. Three. Thank you, thank you so much. Thanks for being part of the show. Amy. Of course. Thanks, amy, and we got to go to a break. When we come back, we’ve got got more giveaways. We got live. Listen, love podcast, pleasant she’s, an affiliate, affections. You gotta hang around, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation. Top trans sounded life that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i am his niece, carmela. And i am his nephew, gino. Ah! My niece’s name is carmela. Come on, that was carmela and gino metal, niece and nephew there. Now they’re not yet there. Now thirteen and eleven, they’re italian. Let’s, give something right there. A little talent, let’s. Give something away. I got some more cure a coffee. Um and this time it’s going to seth perlman. Ah he’s at s j perlman p r l m a n and he tweeted better, brighter, bolder broadcasts for those who give back yeah, you know that’s an attorney that’s, that’s that’s about what you’re gonna get. You know, i know it’s great just writing for a living. No such problem not very good and i’m grateful for him tweeting out and using the hashtag non-profit radio three fifty for today’s show. So we’re sending him a pound of bolder kira coffee for seth perlman. Claire cura coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee dean’s. With every cup of cure, you join our effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. We are a direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you, creating organics miles beyond the cup. Cura coffee dot com your coffee dot com love them. Thank you so much, cura, for sponsoring those two giveaways and we got a grand prize to give. Away the grand prize is going to cheapen cole she’s at non-profit chapin and she tweeted for today’s show congrats to tony martignetti on celebrating non-profit radio three fifty seven years of enriching inspiring content on an amazing podcast exclamation mark thank you! Thank you so much. We got the grand prize for you and that is a seven part webinar training siri’s sponsored by pursuant are our sponsor. I hope they’re not at their sponsoring. Too many eyes not distribute the sponsorship dollars too broadly. I mean, don’t forget non-profit radio for god’s sake. Claire, what about that? What about that seven port? Serious? Well pursue it is proud to sponsor a seven part webinar siri’s with some of the world’s top fund-raising experts, including gael perry from fired-up fund-raising the donor relations guru lynn wes for simon scribe er from change fund-raising leah eustis s f r ee and founder of blue canoe see change strategies founder mark rovner and a rachel muir c f r ee what’s that stand for cfr certified fund-raising executive and then there is also a c f r ee what’s that advanced certified fund-raising and then there’s and then there’s double advance. D a c f r double advanced, which and then it has an asterisk at the end too. And then you drop a footnote at the bottom of the page and it says that you’re super sort of fundchat yes, so go for the cfr, which i just made up. In fact, it looks like dale perry. Looks like cal perry just joined us on now. Hey, just join us on facebook. Hello, gail pantry. So joined lisa martin game and joined hello, lisa. Jeff lane joined wow, let’s vote for lots of friends from and vot nor the value altum pan high school. Thank you so much, jeff. Lisa um, panda reso mary-jo chamberlain didn’t realize this show had so much math. Now, this is a special because it’s got a three, five zero in the title. So not to worry come back and not a lot. Nothing so much math every time greg rajic am i going to saying no, no, i was left thinking you did mind you don’t mind my lip sync when you were singing it all now and listen if you want to sing harmony like you know what does that mean? I have jack in jail, jack in jail, not proper radio jock in jail, i don’t know. Not sure harmony is normally the lyrics is that what the lyrics is now it’s like when you sing, when people sing together, one sings like the team, the melody and the harmonies, like another part, like the background, or sometimes what’s the lyrics what’s that what’s that i hear the words that’s, the word zoho fancy way to say it works the melodies, the tune this is why i have drug in jail. Um, i like to write the words first and then i do the lyrics after let’s do live listen alone using one minute. So what? The end of the show home? My god, no, no, alright, live! Listen love, i can’t do i can’t doing languages look at this live love! I’ve got to get out besides everybody on facebook, shalem, malaysia, seoul, south korea padano dune yano, italy thanks for being with us. Italy, brazil, austria, germany non-cash yang, china let’s bring it into the u s new york, new york multiple in new york city, potomac. Marilyn brooklyn, new york. Stuart scott stein, who hails from oakland. California. Madison, wisconsin south orange, new jersey. Swan’s bar in north carolina, whoa! Swan’s morrow, mendham north, new jersey, woodbridge, new jersey. New winds or new york. Tampa, florida st louis, missouri hyre hobson, houston, texas live listener love i got into the ophelia affection before you cut me off. Sam, i am and fm stations throughout the country. So glad you’re with us. It’s the affiliate affections. Thank you for being part of the show and the podcast pleasantries. I’ve got to go out to the over twelve thousand podcast listeners. I am grateful you are with us. Sam is cutting me off. I wish i could be more effusive. We got to go. Duitz snusz stein. Claire meyerhoff. Thank you so much for being with you. Thank you. Thank you. Being with me for three. Fifty next week. Personalized philanthropy. Steve myers wants your fund-raising to be seriously, really donor-centric he’s with me for the hour. If you missed any part of today’s show where i beseech you, as i do every week find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling. The fundraisers we b e spelling dotcom are creative producers. Claire meyerhoff sam league rules is the line producer shows social media’s by susan chavez. Our music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook, facebook but andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane. Toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell you put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for July 21, 2017: Look Good To Creditors & What Boards Get Wrong

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Paula Park: Look Good To Creditors

Loan? Credit line? Bond issue? Paula Park reveals how to impress creditors when you’re knocking on their door for money. She’s senior vice president at BankUnited.

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: What Boards Get Wrong

Gene Takagi

You may have heard rumors that your board isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look out for. Gene Takagi is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent get excited for next week it’s our three hundred fiftieth show seventh anniversary i’ll say more in a few minutes and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into psych ataxia if i tried to focusing on the idea that you missed today’s show look good to creditors loan credit line bond issue pull a park reveals how to impress creditors lenders when you’re knocking on their door for money, she’s senior vice president at bank united and what boards get wrong? You may have heard rumors that you’re bored isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look for. Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group i’m tony take two, sixty nine and three fifty, but not four hundred nineteen. Responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com my pleasure to welcome first time guests to the show pullup park she’s. Senior vice president responsible for new business development in the non-profit hyre ed and healthcare sectors at bank united’s commercial banking she’s, a banking industry probono over twenty five years of experience focusing most of her career on the banking needs of tax exempt organizations before bank united, she was with wells fargo bank. You can email paula she’s offering her email. People are at bank united that dot com welcome polish pork high thank you. I’m very excited to be on the three hundred and forty nine forty nine that’s. Amazing, thank you very much. It’s almost set seven years called seven wow, seven years what’s one week between friends, right, seven years. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, i don’t know if i’ve had, uh i don’t know if we’ve had a bank around before. I think you might be our first banker. We’ve talked about financial things, but we’ve had, uh, more investment advisors you’ve had, you know, invite investors. We certainly had accountants on you. Might be the first banker zoho that’s. Exciting. Three forty nine. Right? Right. That’s like a low percentage. I feel i’m in the one percent you’re in the europe urine the point o o one. Yes. Okay, so we want to look good for creditors. White let’s. Just make something explicit. Just in case there are maybe or eggs that i haven’t thought about this. Why is it advantageous for them to borrow money? Well, you know, there’s. A lot of reasons for borrowing money. And first, i’d like to say that these air my opinions and up the opinions of my bank. Okay. Okay. Disclaimer. Thank you. So, you know, it helps you expand the reach of your own money. So not every organization can afford to do everything they need to do today. But, you know, do you have a long term risk repayment show source for a short term needs that’s a great reason to borrow. So you want an asset that will last you for the rest of your life. But you don’t have all the money today, okay? Like real estate. Like real estate. But you have the cash flow to support that. Maybe you want to think about borrowing, maybe it’s a great alternative to renting. Ah, and also non-profits use it to help them with their seasonality of their cash flows. Okay, that would be a credit line. Yes, and cried. Um, one of the purposes. Do you see clients coming to you for borrowing? Yeah. I mean, it’s, mostly capital and cash flow. Sometimes we bridge capitol campaigns. So again, back to this that, you know, you have pledges, but they’re going to come in over ten years. But you could buy that asset today if somebody will finance those pledges. Okay, so if there’s the right kind of documentation against those pledges, right? Like, if they’re biting their legally binding, right? I guess that would be part of your due diligence, and they allow lending. You have to let them, you know, they have to say in them that you could borrow against. Okay. All right. We’ll get to the details. All right. Cool. So so you have this future basically receivables? Yes. And you could borrow against them. And under the right terms? Yes. Okay. All right. All right. So it’s, mostly for assets and credit lines. Cash flow is mostly assets and cash flow. Okay, cool. Well, sam, just hand me the list of live listeners were bursting with live listeners who want to hear about looking good to creditors. Okay, we’ll get to the live. Listen, love that comes later. Okay. Okay. So, what should we think about before we approach a creditor lender and start an application or even to start inquiry? What do we need to have in line first? Yeah. I mean, i think you want to get your story together. You want to understand yourself and why you’re approaching them what you’re asking them for, you know, is there collateral? Can you offer collateral? You want to understand your own finances, and you have to be able to explain them to a bank in a way that they can understand wth? Um, okay, so we can’t just voice the whole bunch of documents on you and let you sort through it. Yeah, i know that’s an awful approach that does happen. And that tends to be the last thing you pick up. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t you throw a whole bunch of random things, really? Organize it. Think about your approach. Think about what you want to tell folks about yourself. Um, if you have a compelling story about yourself, tell it. And you have to be able to tell the story. Behind your numbers, because if you can’t tell it, nobody else can understand, okay, so you’re going to ask is this is this now is this? We’re like an initial phone call just like inquiry call i call up and say, you know, we’re thinking we have a cash flow issues, you know, we’re thinking of fifty thousand dollars credit line would be valuable for us, right? I could that would help us make payroll when you know things like that make our rent payments, et cetera, eyes this in an initial call, or do i need to have these things in line before i even call you and say, i’m thinking about doing this? Are you able to help? Yeah, i mean, i love asking questions, so don’t expect that the person on the other end of the line isn’t gonna have a ton of questions there are even in the usual cold, even in the initial call try to feel it out and see if it’s something you’re interested in or not, um and get an idea of what they’re looking for. Why, you know how they’re going to pay you back? That would be part of the initial conversation, because if it’s something you know you can’t help somebody with you don’t want to spend too much time on your trying to feel it our right. You’re beginning contrary, maybe the popular opinion. You’re not just throwing money at every organization that comes because you because it helps you make money, right know now you know. Okay. There’s due diligence. There’s a lot. I do know. How are you going to repay? All right. So how are we going to repay? I mean, if we need to borrow, how do we repay? Well, so, you know, there’s there’s. A couple of different ah, ways to do that. One is, obviously you have excess cash flow every year. So on a long term repayment, you know that extra hundred thousand dollars you have every year goes to pay the term long town. Okay. Okay. With, you know, with the capital campaign, you play it down, you pay it down, it’s the pledges come in and for lines it’s around your seasonality. So you know your your contract started. You perform the service now, it’s. Three months later. And you’re starting to get paid lines when i was in. College lines meant something different. I am not referring to the white lines now. No white lies a credit line. He’s a credit local. Just making sure. Yes, so would credit lines it’s based on your seasonality. So wants your money starts coming in from your government sources. You should be able to pay those back down, okay? Or maybe your donors, donors or your biggest and, you know, whatever that is. It’s it’s lines are meant to be drawn down and repaid and drawn down and repaid over the course of the year, and most of them have a thirty day cleanup. So you’re not supposed to use them for thirty consecutive days. Oh, meaning thirty days you’re supposed to be paid off within thirty days within it. Within thirty days of every year consecutively you have to pay a line of credit town. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, keep about my organization. Can’t keep a balance. No, the idea is to show us that we’re not your permanent working capital, that we’re just a temporary solution. Otherwise, that usually shows evidence of a larger problem. Yeah, because i say all right, right. If there’s always a balance, then the credit line isn’t the right vehicle for you, right? There’s always a balance because, yeah, you have a systemic issue usually. Ok, which is you’re you’re going to try to get at before issuing the line, right? I try to figure that out. First poker. Sometimes things aren’t as visible. Okay, we’re gonna talk about that. We’ll get more detail. Right? So we got we got to go away for our first break for a couple minutes, and then we come back. Of course, paul and i’m gonna keep talking about looking good to creditors. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy. Dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Uh, paula okay, um, so now we’ve progressed past. We’ve gotten past our initial inquiry call, okay? And we’re still viable. Yes, we haven’t. Slobbered we understand our financials. Oh, how would you want to see you? So when you say understand your financials on what you’re looking for, what kind of explanation? I mean, you know, numbers tell a story and what we want to hear the story behind the story. So we want to understand, you know, what you’re doing out there, you know, how you’re helping people, but also how your funding helping people, what your cash flow cycles like, you know, why you’re goingto borrow you know, you’re you’re building a new homeless shelter? Why do you need it for how many people are going to stay in there? How do you how are you going to pay it back? You know, um, you know, how do you budget? How do you work towards your budget? I the one of the my pet peeves is when somebody tells me they don’t track their budget, that scares me. Oh, that’s, terrible ally, i admit that. To a potential lender. Yeah, i’ve had that several time. We don’t track our budget. We don’t track to our budget and money. And yeah, we don’t do internal financial statements. We don’t track to our budget, right? That’s about that’s a bad sign? Yeah. That’s a that’s, a big red flag right there. It’s like, how do you know what you’re doing if you don’t keep track, right? Yeah. How do you know? How do we know we’re going to get paid back-up wi calendar if if you’re not if you’re operating from a budget. So at the end of the year, you figure out if you made it or not. Yeah, december thirty first. Yeah. Scary. Scary. It’s bad. We shouldn’t be operating that way, but that’s systemic. I mean, that there’s a there’s. A problem with board oversight there? Yes. What is not executing its fiduciary duty? Okay, i don’t know if jean takagi is listening, but he and i are gonna talk about some of the things boards get wrong. That’s one of them? Yeah. Okay, now. All right. So next step durney. What is the next? How would you define the next? So so what? I usually do is i gather financial data. So i asked for three years of audited financial state man’s your current year today how you’re tracking to your budget, you know, some sort of a numeric picture of how you’re going to pay me back. You know, what’s the funds flow if it’s aline what? Your cash flow cycle looks like that’s. Another red flag when somebody says, i don’t know what my cash flow cycle looks like. Um, you know, what’s your plan to pay me back to cash flow cycle well, that’s, your receivable cycle. So most organizations, especially government funded, have a very typical we know. Yes. Okay. All right. So we know, on the end of the quarter, we were very rich, and then we draw it down from the end of the quarter. Because our government pays us, the state sends me. It sends us to check every quarter, and that sustains us for the three months and right. And then we have other revenue sources, like events. And then we have individual donors account for right. Thirty percent of our revenue like that. I mean, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s it and you. Show me your cycle s i collectibe bunch of financial dad and then what i like to do is come visit, meet in person, see what you look like, see where you work here, what you sound like in person and, you know, asking a lot of questions and again have you tell me your story? How can we impress you now now you’re we’ve given the documents now coming on site, right? Right? How can we impress you so that you will give us the loan? Whatever it is that we’re that we’re looking for? Yeah, i mean, first of all, i always bring somebody with me and they’re usually the credit person, one of the credit people, so if you don’t impress them, does that mean they’re the ones who make the decision date? They either make the decision or influence the decision, okay? And you know, if they’re not impressed, that’s it but the end of the line and how to impress them. So you know again, you tell us your financial story. You tell us how you’re going to pay us back. You tell us about what you dio and how you do it. If you have a great program that you can show us that that’s going to really impress us. That always helps a lot. Ok, so show off our facility. Oh, yeah. Even if it’s not directly related to our loan. Yes, absolutely. Okay, you know, bring important people. Bring the cfo. Bring the executive director. Boardmember bring aboard matter-ness boardmember i love when they bring boardmember bring a boardmember show how committed everybody is, you know, talk about why they’re there and how much they love it. And, you know, it’s and the personal impression means a lot. You know, if you leave a meeting and you don’t trust the people you spoke with, they don’t sound articulate. They were confusing. You know, the chances of getting the loan get lower and lower. What about its summertime? Okay, if i show up at this meeting shorts and flip flops. Yeah, shorts and flip flops are a very bad idea. I’ve had it happen. Birkenstocks, you name it. Cut off jean shorts. You know the bank for god’s? Yeah. Think about your audience. You know, even if you have casual fridays, you should probably hold off on showing me your casual fridays until i know you better invite you for monday through thursday. Yeah. Invite me monday through thursday if you don’t want unless we’re doing a barbecue sacrifice your casual friday. Yeah, yeah, but don’t turn up in your casual friday close. I want to bring my credit people it doesn’t mean they’re in suits and dresses. Yeah, we just sweat it out and suits and you’re in your flip flops. They feel insulted. Okay, what else? Anything else? Tip of ways we can impress you. Tips inside of these the pro tips. I mean, you know, the pro tips. I guess one of the things we talked about was pricing hot off the show. But pricing bad banks, you know, come up with a score card on you. They basically take all your data and important into a financial model. And we come up with a risk rating for you and it’s. A number, man. Every bank has a different range, but the idea is the same. And and the number we come up with for you goes into usually some sort of a pricing model. And based on the number your price changes like there’s no, your interest rate. You interest rate, right. So the mohr um risk-alternatives and some of that’s quantitative. So you can’t really change that, it’s. Just a number driven there’s a portion that’s, qualitative and that’s. Where impression and how you sounded in how your story sounded. That all goes into the quantitative piece. Quality. Yes, qualitative piela that that moves your number around. What would you say that proportion is quantitative qualitative in deciding this risk rating? I mean, quantitative hyre okay, but sixty, forty years? Seventy, thirty, thirty percent. I can influence about a third that’s. A lot of my rate by putting on a good show having good present that making a good presentation, right? Right. I mean, there’s, nothing you khun dio, if your numbers are never going to work, there’s nothing you can do to change that. Okay, but if your numbers do work there’s a lot you could do to move, move it around and and put yourself in a different place. Okay, so, you know, i think that’s an important thing to consider is is what impression you’re leaving people with, you know, think about before you have before you call before you meet. What impression am i? Trying to give you what are some of the numbers that go into the these these? Yeah, that go into the risk lady. Yeah, s so what we do is we take your you typically it’s three years. We take your last three years of audits, and we lined them up against each other so we can look at trends. And we re like ratio analysis. We like, first of all, we do a percentage for everything. So revenues is, you know, made up of seventy percent this and ten percent bad expenses. We break every line item into a number and a percent. And then we blind him up so we can say things like, why did your program express spence? Increase relative to your revenue? Why was it twelve percent last year and this year, it’s? Thirty ah, wei take numbers and we pour them into a whole bunch of ratio analysis. Leverage is an important one. It’s basically debt to net assets. All right, we’re getting into jargon jail territory now? Yeah, you just defined leverage. That’s. Good it’s. A ratio of debt to net asset that to net assets. We look at liquidity numbers, which can be all different. It could be a gross numbers. Something like cash and i’m restricted investment. You can be a ratio like sabat current assets minus current liabilities. That could be current assets divided by current liabilities. So there’s a whole bunch of different numbers to look at. And then they think the most important one is debt service coverage ratio here in jargon. Jill. Yeah. Yeah, i know, but i can tell you thie d s c r the common. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, your operating access plus interest appreciation operating access that we have to find that. Alright. Wait. All right. So let’s, just leave it with dug a hole here. Alright, jargon, but you get me out. Get me out of this hole. I mean, this dark hole, all right, basically shows us how you can pay us back that we have the capacity to pay you back. Yeah, it has to be better than one. If you want more detail in that email. Female polar at people back tonight at dot com. Okay, i got out of that slow. Okay. So, what’s all right, so you’re going toe. You’re doing deep evaluation. This is your your due diligence, right? God, quantitative and qualitative. What are some red flags? That that, yeah, what is a red flag? Yeah. I mean, you know, you’re looking for big, big red flags are ah, negative net assets. So negative equity negative equity means you you own less than you owe you. Owe more than you. Everything, including our copier are if we owned property, whatever all our assets yet or less than our liability. Yeah. That’s, that’s a big no, no, but, you know, this debt service number we’re talking about is below weinger okay, skip over that. Okay? You’re okay, you’re below one the one that’s bad that’s bad. You’re operating continually at a loss like year after year after year after year here on it’s getting worse, okay, you know, so the trends are getting worse. You know that? The number that you’re looking at two pay your backs getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Right? So your risk the risk of this money that you’re going to be lending is rising and rising, right? What? It may just be so high that when that we can’t even help you. Right? Right. All right, red flags. Any other red flags? Birkenstocks, you’ve got a deal. Killer it’s not a deal killer. I’ve done, i’ve done deals for cookie people and strange outfits, but but there, but they paid more. They might have paid for that race probably were hyre yes, stocks, birkenstocks will cost you, you know? I mean, they’re they’re lovely, but not not, not when you’re meeting the credit people, right? And if you go out to meet with people and for burke, they don’t understand what they’re talking about and they can’t tell you why they’re expenses. Air hyre this year, and they don’t manage to a budget and you walk in and the ceiling’s falling down, you’re like, i don’t know if i want to do that. What if we’re lending for renovations because our ceiling is falling down? Well, that would be we’re borrowing. That would be a different story. But if this is like your not that, you know, your i’m in for working capital and you know, the book just fell on my head. I’m a little worried, okay? Yeah, but you have deeper issues beyond. Yeah, there’s more keeping your program’s going in. Your staff paid yes within which these programs and staff are residing is not stable, right? Your buildings falling apart. Yeah, this is fun. And you? Oh, well, let’s, get back to some of the fiduciary duties that the board should be overseeing. What if there’s excessive compensation, right? I mean, you know, there’s not a hard and fast rule for executive compensation. But i do think that if you see stuff that’s really out of the norm, it does raise a big red flag. And one time, for example, i was looking at the nine. Ninety of social service that their financial statement there ought. It looked a little odd, so i went to the nine. Ninety to see if i could dig a little deeper because there’s. A lot of information in there. And i found out thea president, ceo and cfo. Were husband, wife and son. Oh, no. The social service was it’s operating at a loss, but the three of them together made over two million dollars a year. And the headquarter hyre? Yeah, hop on. The headquarters was being rented from the president. Man, i didn’t do that loan, right? Yeah. That’s. Egregious. Yeah. That’s. Great. Where’s, the board i don’t know. And it’s it’s, you know, it’s, a founder run entity. So, yeah, that has to sell that story. Yeah, and i won’t tell you who but it’s when you know very marriage. One wife and son. Yeah, and the three of them are making two million dollars over that’s a lot for a social service. Especially one that’s operating at a deficit. Right? Him? Yeah. So, you know, i look for things like that. Google, sir. Oh, you mentioned. Oh, okay. You mention financial statements, flandez these come with a lot of footnotes? Yes. When i was in law school, i had a professor who he was so keen on the footnote being so important that the answer to an exam turned on whether you read the footnote or not. Yes, absolutely right or wrong in big way. Whether you if you didn’t read the footnotes. Footnotes i read, i actually i read the footnotes first before i even look at the financial numbers because their stories in there because that’s, the football i love the footnotes. Yeah, there’s. A lot of stuff in there. It’s. Very interesting. Um, all the good stuff’s in the footnotes if we’ve got stuff buried in the footnotes that we would rather you didn’t see? Should we just let you read it on your own? Or should we come out clean and say, you’re going to see cem, some improprieties or some, you’re going to see some red flags? Let me talk about these shoes. In other words, should we reveal it, or shall we leave it to you two? Maybe you won’t find it. Yeah, it’s always better off to come up front with things make cerini find it, maybe we find it and and you know what it is and and and if it’s on google, if i can google it, you have to tell me, because if it’s out there, i google search everybody everything yeah, bad press um and if it’s out there on google, everybody knows so china hide it it’s better to just tell you story a pride. It always sounds worse when you dig it up on your own. Absolutely well, that’s. Like being ten years old, it’s. Much better to go to mom and say you did something bad. Then have her discover that you fed the broccoli to your dog. Right? Right, it’s. A deal killer. When you find something on google and it’s egregious for me, it was liver, but i have cut it into little bits at a smother it with ketchup. I always say, if you covered cutting little bits and spread it around the plate, it looks like a lot less right, right. At least hide it under the mashed potatoes. Yeah, hide it or just diffuse it when it’s dense on the plate. That’s when? It’s scary, right? Just just last night, this came up, somebody cooked me liver, even smothered with onions. I just i’m not a liver fan myself, but you got to come clean. He gotta come tell up front. You know, we don’t like liver here in this organization, right? That’s, right? And we want you to know and here’s why? And here’s but here’s what we do instead we have other sources of iron right supplement. Wei have other sources of good protein. That’s right? We’ve finished. They were in vegan. They were even begin here. Yeah, there are good. So alright. Come clean. That’s. What you’re saying? Come clean. Dafs piela all right. Um anything else? All right, so now we’re getting to this, the evaluation, the number’s sounds like we’re just reduced to a bunch of spreadsheets cells, right. While we tell you story too, we tell you story and writing. Oh, so you tell us your story. We tell you, we tell our credit people your story. Okay. Okay. So are you? Basically is your role basically too be an advocate for the would you put it that way and advocate for the non-profit is that too strong of a navigator? As long as that they’re worth advocating for. Okay. Okay. Until they’re not your advocate until they’re not worth advocating for. Yes, absolutely. So you’re the liaison. I’m really a front face of the credit organization. Credit institution, bank united on dh. You’re working between the organization of the credit right in the middle person? Absolutely. I kind of represent both to each other. Anything else we can do to get the best rate possible? We just have, like, a minute and a half left. What could you d’oh? Besides, have great numbers tell you. Good story. Where the right clothes? Show me your show, mia programs. Okay, alright. Stuff recovered. Yeah, i can’t think of anything else in that case tell me why you love. You’ve been in banking and lending twenty for over twenty five years. Why do you love this work? Yeah, i mean, i’m here for the not-for-profits so i’ve always been a not for profit. I started lending to not-for-profits in nineteen, ninety and i’ve been hooked ever since. I love to be involved in the projects i love to be involved in the missions i love to meet the people i’ve set on board. I’ve done volunteer work. I’ve worked. It not-for-profits too and i just i just want to help the the not-for-profits helped the universe. Our cold is to go to that to go to the ribbon cutting oh, i love going to the river cutting that’s like your shining moment of glory when all the all that work you did paid off for everybody. Yeah, so that’s fun. We loved the ribbon cutting and we try to bring some of our bosses to the ribbon cuttings too, and let them see how great we are, where their money did something good for a change. Outstanding cool part. Thank you. Thank you. Ballpark. Senior vice president at bank united park at thank united dot com. Thank you again. Thank you so much. Jean takagi and what boards get wrong is coming up first pursuant they have ah, well, they have something, but you have seen a lot of midyear fund-raising reports now we’ve we’ve crossed june thirtieth and benchmarks being discussed everywhere, you know, whether you’re living up to what the community is doing or not, but one of the most important trends and how do you make the most of the best sense out of them for your organization? What if you’re not hitting the benchmarks that other people have created on dh? How do you keep rising above if you’re if you’re ahead? That’s what the next webinar comes in for from pursuant it’s, the state of fund-raising midyear checkpoint with ceo trent riker he’s going to be on the show next week for the three fifty and senior vice president jennifer abila they’re gonna help you push through your third and fourth quarters if you can’t make it live on july twenty fifth, watch archive either live or archive go to pursuing dot com click resource is then webinars. We’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers make millennial money that’s my own that’s my own alliteration that’s not there so don’t don’t blame alex queer. We’d be spelling for that, but listeners have been talking to alex. I know he’s the ceo there he’s also going to town next week and you could be next. You could be a b you could be you could be next. Look at this. What is brilliant mind since that what? You’re witnessing it at work right now. Um, b next, check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and then pick up the phone for pizza. Talk to alex and look, look what his number is. Nine to nine to two four bees. Okay, see, i’m not the only one now the time for tony’s. Take two. Sixty nine and three. Fifty. I’ve got a new video. Feels good in sixty nine. Get the filth out of your mind. Get it out! This is a family show. Although i don’t know anyone under twenty one. Why anyone under twenty would listen. But in fact, if you are under twenty one and you can prove it to me, i’ll make you listen for the week. Get me at tony martignetti sixty nine is a new position for me, it’s. Hard it’s a hard position. Watch the video and it will all become very clear. Next week is the three hundred fiftieth non-profit radio we’ve got all the regulars that iran, including jeanne kaguya, was coming on very shortly hyre meyerhoff she’s gonna be with me the ceo’s from pursuing and we’d be spelling live music with scott stein he’s going to play our theme song, of course, cheap red wine and another and we’ve got giveaways from pursuant and your coffee. How do you enter the wind post your most creative? Congrats on the three fiftieth use the hashtag non-profit radio three fifty post will pick the best ones those will be the winners here’s that hash tag non-profit radio three fifty you’ll find my sixty nine and three fifty videos at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two jean takagi. He, uh you know, he’s been listening to tony take two he’s been on for a couple minutes. You know who he is? He’s, the managing attorney of neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit law block dot com and he is the american bar association’s. Twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer you’ll find him at gee tak gt a k jean takagi. So great to have you back. Welcome back. Thanks, tony. Great to be back. My pleasure. We’re talking about some, um, some mistakes that boards make. What, uh, what brings this to your attention? Well, it’s been in the news a lot on dh governance on every level in every sphere of ah, our country has been coming to a lot of attention and whether things were done properly up on the top or not, um, has become a big issue, and i think there’s a common saying the tone is set at the top and the tone of proper governance on non-profit boards really sets the whole tone for the organization and when you don’t have boardmember that air prepared to set that right tone, there are there are problems that follows, and those are the things that get into the news, okay? And we were just touching on just a couple of those with with paula park a few minutes ago, some talking about some of the fiduciary issues fiduciary duties that board members might be ignoring if they’re if they’re not. Properly prepared for, you know ah, credit application sabat okay, but aside from that let’s, see, what would you like, tio? What would you like to start with you? Pick you pick somewhere. We got to get a bunch to go through. But you pick something to start. I feel like i always dictate to you. You choose. Okay. Let’s do allowing. No, i’m sorry. Go ahead. What would you like to do? Well, i could actually let’s start with sort of conflict of interest transactions and that’s where boardmember sze decide that they want to sell services to the non-profits on whose board they sit and, you know, some some sort of say, all of that should not be allowed. And with private foundations there’s ah, much stricter rule that prohibits most of those transactions. But with public charities, it’s usually not sort of absolutely prohibited in some cases, a conflict of interest times action is actually to the organization’s benefit. Like kinda boardmember says, you know, i’ll give you rent at half of the market rate on you. And you can use my my offices to run the organization. That might be a very good deal for a public charity, but where board get in trouble is where one member of the board says, well, you know, i’ll sell you these advertising services for the organization, and my usual rate is five hundred dollars an hour, but i’ll charge you four hundred dollars an hour, and maybe that is what you know that person’s rate is when they’re selling him tto fortune five hundred companies. But for this little one hundred thousand dollars a year non-profit a four hundred dollar an hour rate for advertising is probably excessive. And if the rest of the board just blindly goes along that’s as well he’s giving us a twenty percent discount let’s go with it that gets boards in trouble. Yeah, okay. Would that fall under that eyes that a conflict, conflict of interests? Yes. I mean, there may be several laws where it could be a problem, but on sort of the federal level on the federal tax level, along with being a five a one c three organization and the public charity, you’re not allowed to engage in on access, benefit transaction where somebody like a boardmember gets an excessive payment. And if that happens, what? The irs could do would say, hey, you know, that was excessive, really, nobody should be paying a charity this side should not be paying more than let’s say, two hundred dollars an hour for those services, so you were overcharging two hundred dollars per hour and what we’re going to make you do, as the irs says, we’re going to say you have to return that excessive portion back to the charity, and then on top of that, we’re going to charge you a tax for violating that rule, and that will be twenty five percent of the excessive amount that you charged. And if you don’t fix that within the tax year, we’re going to charge you a two hundred percent penalty under the mountain, all right away, if any boardmember approved that transaction and they knew or he really should have known it to be excessive, we’re going to hit them with a penalty as well. Oh, my goodness. Okay. And i think you and i have talked about this not recently, but xs benefit transactions. I think we’ve covered this. This yeah, and then very i love that you point out the possibility of individual fiduciary penalties and my saying individual money, penalties for the board members, personal penalties. Yeah, really, really rare. But, you know, if if boards look like they colluded, teo benefit one of their fellow board members and weren’t really looking after the best interests of the organization, they can be imposed. Okay, okay, let’s go to aa, not preventing misappropriation, our misuse of the of the ah, the money’s that come in or the other other assets of the organization. Yeah, i mean, that’s a great segue way because one misuses overpaying a boardmember really is overpaying anybody. So maybe you’ve got a friend. And, you know, that friend is offering this great deal to the organization according to your friend, but maybe it isn’t such a great deal. Or maybe it’s for services that the organization really doesn’t even need. So he’s saying, you know, i’ve got this great storage facility. You guys should rent it, and you know, i’ll give you this this great deal on it, and so the organization goes ahead on, rents it but actually never uses it because they never needed that storage facility. Well, that would be kind of a waste of assets and potentially, a diversion of those charitable assets to benefit somebody’s friend. And again that back and get people in a lot of trouble about cyber security risks what’s the board’s responsibility there? Yeah, cybersecurity czar really hot button issue right now and then we’re seeing it everywhere from, uh, people getting their social security numbers stolen or credit card number stolen and identity theft associated with that. So when non-profits are collecting what they call personally identifiable information information that can be associating with a specific individual, they’ve got certain rules that apply, and these are specific to the states. So there’s certain rules that apply that say, you’ve got to really maintain and protect this information, and if it gets out, if your sites that contain this information are breached and those things that released a lot of states say you’ve gotta notify the individual who’s data has been breached and taken so that they can take steps to protect themselves. So really big deal now you you will have already breached the law if you didn’t create secure systems preventing certain breeches and hackers from getting at that data. And if you fail to notify possibly donor’s information, for example, or some buyers of your services or goods? If you don’t notify them of that reaches well, you could be violating another law. So a lot going on there in cyber security. Actually, another really interesting one was recently there was some ransom where that that was came out and hit not only for-profit organizations but some non-profits is well and ransom. Where is basically where somebody hijacks your site and some of some of your site, maybe for processing donations or for selling goods and services. And so you really rely on having them up every day while the hacker takes over your site says unless you pay me let’s, say, you know, ten thousand dollars by tomorrow, i’m going to keep your site hacked and it may take you, you know, even with your experts a week, two weeks to recover it, and maybe you’re gonna lose a lot more money if you do that now, what do you do? Yeah, we just had that nationwide within about the past, not not not just nationwide internationally with in the past, what, six weeks or so? See, i think the wannacry ransomware i don’t know if it’s called a virus or something else. But yeah, it was widely prevalent in a lot of organizations, and organizations have to figure out how to deal with that and it’s best to figure those things out before it actually happens, rather than after the fact we just had a guest with in the past. I’d say that in the past two months, mark last night was shine mark shine. I think, talking about cyber security on how to ensure against it, the different policies that are available. Teo, to protect your organization in the event of a breach s so you could listen to you could look back at that it’s just with i’m sure it was mark shine just in the past couple months, okay, let’s. See, um, let’s. I do want to get teo another, another popular blawg, not not as popular as non-profit law block dot com, but we’ll we’ll give ellis card or a shout in a couple minutes. How about yeah, investments what’s the what? I don’t think you and i have talked about this one, the board’s responsibility around the investment policy statements of the organization? Sure. So, you know, even some smaller charities, you know, they got reserves and order some of them anyway. If they’re lucky, enoughto have not have to live sort of day by day, have some reserves on dh. They may want invest those reserves rather than just keep it in in a checking account, for example. And if you do have assets for investment was a charity. There are state laws that are associated with prudently investing those foreign investor axe. Yeah, on dh those are really important to pay attention to so some charities and some have come to us for service. You know, when when the market is it is it’s hot on the market has been pretty good lately, you know, they’re also served deals out there, and some are like going no, you know, we would like to invest all of our our money in this hedge, but, uh, and they may not even know what a hedge fund is. And i don’t know that anybody actually knows what a hedge fund is, because that covers so many different broad groups of investments, but they tend to be wildly speculative, meaning you could make a ton of money on them in a short period of time, and you can lose a lot of money in a very short period of time and that type of speculative investment making unless it’s part of like a prudent portfolio where maybe, like ten percent of your assets are devoted to those that are, you know, much more speculative, but ninety percent are in much more conservative investments can be a real breach if you put all your money’s in one basket, which it’s never good ideas, we’ve learned from our our parents or our kindergarten teachers. Um, you know, you’ve got to make sure that the portfolio of different investments you have is prudent, and so you’ve diversified your risks and not put it all in some wildly speculative investment, and that could be not only a breach of your fiduciary duty but reach a prudent investor rules and there’s a rule we don’t wantto get into jargon jail, you’re always about the impression that the acronym uniforms prudent management. Of institutional funds act, and it says that you have to look at different concerns when you’re investing on dh. It really talks about conservative investing in a portfolio with an eye on what your mission is as well. Gene, just give that acronym and what it stands for again, please, i talked over you sure upmifa upm i f a, the uniform, prudent management of institutional funds act. If you google upmifa and your state, you’ll find what the law is, and i think that’s in forty nine states, i think maybe pennsylvania’s the outline, hold on. All right, all right, thank you. I’ll try teo, keep my tongue civil from here on, but all right, let’s, go out for our break. When we come back, i’ve got live. Listen, love a ton, and we’ll give a shout out to another law block that you might be interested in state with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests are there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. Krauz hyre hopes could be with us next week for the three hundred fiftieth show as well. Jean takagi, listen, let’s, do the live listener love because we’re bursting here. Tampa, florida bronx, new york and if we got all five boroughs, we got multiple manhattan. We got bronx. We got staten island. Um, we have brooklyn where’s, queens, queens. Let us down. All right. We got four out of five and multiple said, multiple manhattan, woodbridge, new jersey. That’s not far. Laura, laura, laura, belinda, california live listen and love to all of you, but also to torrington, connecticut. I’ve been to torrington, that’s, a nice little town. I did some consulting there. Uh, social service agency. Torrington. And you have that that renovated theater right in downtown. I love that’s, very pretty. Minneapolis minnesota lives their love to you also new bern, north carolina and midlothian, virginia. Midlothian, midlothian live listen love. However you pronounce it let’s, go abroad. Not too many people abroad, nobody, nobody in asia, nobody at all in asia. This, i think, is the first show where there’s, nobody from asia. Wow. Okay, uh, they’ll be back. Uk? We can’t we can’t we see uk, united kingdom so we don’t know whether it’s whales or ireland or scotland or england we don’t know well, you’re in the uk so we always give always give you know you got to do the you got to recognize that there’s more than one country in the united kingdom, please and germany, good talk, live listen love all our livelong sinners on dh so of course, on the heels of that has got to be the podcast pleasantries because we’ve got over twelve thousand podcast listeners in the time shift. Thank you. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners, never forgetting them. And then, of course, the affiliate affections to our am and fm stations throughout the country. And by the way, i have four new stations to introduce next week on the three, fiftieth four brand new stations joining us throughout the country from new york, colorado to washington. I think porter stations but for the current stations listening today affections to our am and fm listeners. Thanks so much for being with us, everyone. Thank you, jean. Thank you for that indulgence. You know the thanks that you know the gratitude has got to go out, right? You know that? Absolutely. Thank you. Um okay. So let’s give a little shout out to ah, another. Another non-profit attorney ellis carter. She she she curates the charity lawyer blawg, cherry lawyer block. And you know, ellis carter. I did turn and she’s a wonderful person and a great attorney. Alice and i have had a chance to speak together and work together on the few occasions you’ve worked together too. Cool. All right. So on her block post going back, i think it’s two thousand nine there was one of her earlier poster, if not her very first post. She links to you while she mentions a bunch of your problem ideas. And i want to give a shout out to your block. Of course. Non-profit non-profit law block dot com where listeners can check out all your list of all ten because you did a post for this show, which actually you do that every week, which i always appreciate every time you’re on, you do opposed. So if you want to see the full list of jeans, go to non-profit loblaw dot com. But ellis carter has charity lawyer blawg and she’s got a couple on there. That i want to talk about, like micro managing staff are you are you comfortable talking about ellis carter’s board governance mistakes? Yeah, absolutely actually give credit to her. She came up with a list of ten, and then i just added a few more to to her list, and so she recaptured all fifteen together on her block, but she was the one who came up with micro managing staff and it’s a really important one because i think he probably seen it as well. Tony, where board members start to get involved and then go around the executive director and start to give directions to the staff. Yes, i have and creates all kinds of political trouble and reporting line trouble and yeah, yeah, but, you know, part of that can be the responsibility of the ceo to and blurring lines and, you know, having boardmember do things that maybe you’re not appropriate, like, you know, day to day tasks and things. Yeah, and so, you know, oftentimes when you, this is a kind of a growing pain for some non-profits as well, because when you’re on all volunteer non-profit organization, it is where the board members involved. With everything as well and and managing volunteers in that case. But once you start to grow up a little and have staff and haven’t executive director, the board members have to know to pull back and, you know, for one thing, boardmember should know that individually they have no inherent authority to do anything. They don’t have the authority to manage staff it’s only collectively as a board where they have authority officers like your executive director or your ceo perhaps might have the authority to give limited direction to the staff to ceo would obviously have have the ultimate authority there with respect to the staff, but just knowing where your boundaries are, it’s really important and from a liability standpoint, board members, if they start to mismanage, that could get hit with unemployment claim, which really makes up, i believe more than ninety percent of all directors and officers insurance claims our employment related and if they’re directed against boardmember themselves, and if you don’t have dino insurance boy, that that could be a huge problem for individual boardmember so they really have to be careful of that. Another one on ellis’s list is airing disagreements outside the board room and that reminds me of the very timely, like complaining about your attorney general to the new york times as an example, it just happened today airing disagreements outside the boardroom what’s the trouble there? Yeah, and obviously as a non-profit when you’re taking positions, you wantto have one position that you’re setting out to the public you don’t wantto have ah, divided ah statement that you’re giving to a public where some persons involved with the organization are on one side of an issue when other persons are other side of an issue and it looks to the public that the organization is poorly governed, poorly managed, and can’t even make up its mind on what its messages and therefore could jeopardize support. So aaron aaron, you know your disagreements outside of the boardroom, a really big problem for the organization in terms of its, you know, public relations, but also a huge, huge problem for the boards themselves because, you know, tony, if you and i were on the board together and we had a disagreement over a key issue on dh, we got a chance to discuss it, of course, when we go out you know, even if i may have disagreed with you and, you know, your side won, i’m going to be supportive of that. I might not say very much about it, but i’m definitely not going to say, well, i, you know, in in public that i disagreed with it because what happens if i start doing that is i’m a chill further board discussions, you know, if you don’t kick me out of the board for doing that, the board might find itself very, very leery of, you know, raising controversial points because you got this one person who’s going to be a blabber mouth and start teo, reframe everything and criticize you personally outside of the organization, a really big problem. The place for the robust discussion and disagreements is within the confines of the board meeting and maybe discussions that take place in committee or or even know our board members having back channel communications right privately on the phone or email, but publicly wait, where were we? Face-to-face we present one face yeah, and this along with your duty of loyalty to the organization as well, you’re supposed to act as a board member in the best interest of the organization. Not in your personal best interests. All right? Yeah. You don’t want to hurt the organization by by airing your grievances outside. Thank you very much. Looking forward to talking to you next week on the three. Fifty of jean? Yeah, i’m really looking forward to three. Fifty congratulations. Thank you so much, jane takagi you’ll find him at non-profit law block dot com and at g tak gt a k next week three fifty three five oh, how many times i have to say it, make sure you enter to win our giveaways post your most creative congrats with the hashtag non-profit medio three fifty can’t wait for that great fun! If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com we’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com our creative producers climb hyre half sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and this fantastic cool music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. Sametz buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for August 19, 2016: Your Supercharged Board & Your Content Calendar

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Dolph Goldenburg: Your Supercharged Board

Dolph Goldenburg reveals his wisdom for revitalizing your board committees; making your board meetings effective; and keeping engagement civil. He’s the author of the book “Successful Nonprofits Build Supercharged Boards.”

 

 

 

Laura Norvig, James Porter & Kivi Leroux Miller: Your Content Calendar

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What belongs in it? Who do you need to help create it? How do you get buy in? And how about resources to help you? Our can-do content calendar committee from the Nonprofit Technology Conference is Laura Norvig from ETR, James Porter at The END Fund and Kivi Leroux Miller, founder of Nonprofit Marketing Guide.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d grow a foe set if i saw that you missed today’s show you’re supercharged board dolph goldberg reveals his wisdom for keeping engagement civil, revitalizing your board committees and making your board meetings effective. He’s, the author of the book successful non-profits build supercharged boards and you’re content calendar what belongs in it? Who do you need to help create it? How do you get the buy-in and how about resources to help you? Our can do content calendar committee from the non-profit technology conference is laura norvig from e t r james porter at the end fund-raising founder of non-profit marketing guide between those on tony’s take two solitude. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. We be spelling dot com. I’m glad that dolph goldenburg is with me. He is managing director at the goldenburg group. Before consulting, he was executive director of an aids service organisation. In atlanta and an lgbt community center in philadelphia, he has more than a decade of fund-raising experience dafs company is at goldenburg group dot com dolph welcome. Thank you, tony it’s. Good to be on. And i have to give you a very you know, it’s, i’m not tryingto humble myself and, uh, you know, be in your in your pocket right away. But i have to apologize because, uh, when i first introduced the segment, i called you dolph goldberg, but that is not correct. Your name is dolph goldenburg. No worries at all of the common short shorthand for the name. Well, okay, well, but inappropriate shorthand. You you have it’s, like calling me martignetti. You know, there is that there is that syllable in the middle. So it’s, dolph goldenburg all right. And you were just recently married. Just last month. I wa sai wass after about ten years together, my husband and i decided to make it legal. So we had a very small wedding with just friends and family outstanding. And that was up in new england, right? That actually was indeed deep, deep south georgia. We’re going ok. Thie twin city metropolis twin. City of helena mcrae, georgia. Okay. I don’t know where i got northeast, but new england. But you are exactly opposite. A small town, georgia. Wonderful. Congratulations. Thank you. And congratulations on this book. Um, why, uh why do we need a book on supercharging boards? That’s. A great question. I have been an executive director for about a dozen years. And? And what i found is an executive director. Was that both my my work as a needy, but also the organization’s mission was was always either supported or made more difficulty because of the board. And what i found was that the time that i would invest in board development and the board would invest in its own development always paid strong reward. You have an interesting personal journey. Is tio how you came to write the book? I do. Actually, i i had been at a housing aid service organization gosh, for about almost five years or so and and realized that i was starting to have a midlife crisis. And so, unlike most people have a midlife crisis, i didn’t have an affair. I didn’t get a corvette. What i did do was i gave ten. Months notice that my job as an executive director and i planned an eight month long sabbatical and my my plan really on that sabbatical. Wass to think about what? What i had done well in my career what i had done poorly in my career and then really kind of put all of that down in terms of my lessons learned around board development and so through that door during that sabbatical, i sort of travel the world. I went to vietnam and cambodia for two months. I hiked around in peru for a month. I hide out west for a month. But between each of those trips, i would come back home. And i would work on this book, which, while it is very short, took, you know, about five or six months to write, and it has tend different zoho areas of topics of improvement for boards were only going to have to time to touch on three, maybe four depending how we go. But, you know, so the message is, you know, you gotta buy the book for the foot for the full ten. I love that message. Thank you. Thank you. All right, and and you’re you’re being very gracious there. I messed up your name. I got your wedding location wrong. We’re starting. I i can’t imagine interview it’s starting worse. But you’re being very kind and gracious, so we’ll get to it. It can only get much better now. Hopefully, i have more the facts, correct. You know, i feel like the interview’s going well, thank you. I do two. Absolutely. All right. Let’s get started. Rules of engagement. You want you want to seymour? Civility on boards? Yeah, and, you know, and and not just not just civility, stability is really important. But board have to sit down and say, what rules are we going to live? These are not the governing rules. These air, not the expectations that every boardmember should have, but they’re really you know, how are we going to interact with each other? What behavior is okay? And his not okay. And civility is a big part of that, you know? But you know, as some other examples we have all seen the boardmember who was the naysayers? Whatever comes up, they try to shoot it down and that’s not on ly unproductive for the board, but it’s also really unproductive for that individual boardmember because what ends up happening is if every time they open their mouth, people sort of roll their eyes. And they just tuned the naysayers. Yeah, this is the person loses credibility. But right now, how are we going to deal with this? Ah, this gadflies, this nay sayer. Well, so i believe that the first thing we do is we help the board developed its own rules of engagement. And so as an example, what would come out of that is, you know, being the naysayers is not okay. And once the board has generally come to alignment on that note, i did not say concensus, but actually come to alignment because, you know, if ninety percent of the board feels that way that’s probably what it should be. So, you know, so once the board has come to an alignment on, for example, may saying is not okay or, you know, or what happens in the meeting stays in the meeting, those types of things. Then when people move beyond that and kind of step outside of the rules of engagement, then the board chair or the governor’s chair can have a conversation with that person and really start to bring them back into alignment on the rules of engagement. Okay. And, of course, the naysayers air going toe may say that rule so on your your your point about alignment? Not not one hundred percent consensus, right? Right. We want to be prepared for the naysayers today. Say that they saying rule right? Yeah, i love the way you said. Okay, well, i spit it out fast. All right? I’ll tell you what, let’s, take our guy lily for a break. And dolph, of course, you and i are going to keep talking about the supercharged board, revitalizing committees and making meetings effective. So stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent adult let’s let’s hit a few more of these rules of engagement. Ah, i don’t want you don’t want this to sound like a battlefield plan or something, but but ah, in fact, your first one is the is the civility rule. So this the board meeting’s should not be a battlefield. All right, working through committees, we’re going. We’re going to talk a little about revitalising there shortly, but you gotta work through the structure, right? Right. So so one of the rules of engagement the board’s often come up with is if someone has a great idea the place to bring that is to the appropriate committee, not to the full board. And then you really let the committee deliberate on that idea developer recommending agent if it’s appropriate and bring that the full board because really, the full board just doesn’t have time to deal with all the good ideas that are percolating up. Is that it? Absolutely. The the work of a bored is done in its committees and one of the one of the things that i always kind of saying, this is sort of the committee math, if you will, is that if you have got five committees that meat between every board meeting for just ninety minutes, what that means is that committee dill deliberation is seven hours boardmember can’t be seven hours long, but when you have five committees each meeting for ninety minutes, you get more deliberation and you get better recommendations and decisions coming to the board. There also is an expectation that boardmember sze will prepare for committee and full board meetings. Absolutely, you know, nothing is more demoralizing both to senior staff and bored leadership, then for board members to show up having already received the meeting packet, but not having read the reports on these financials because then, really, what happens is the committee reports are just reading what they’ve already written what’s mohr has part of that expectation not also means there’s an expectation on the staff, and that expectation is that meeting packets go out with enough lead time that board members can actually review them. I swear i’ve been to board meetings where there are members opening their their packets for the first time, and, you know, they’re there cramming ten minutes. Before the board meeting is about to be called to order, right? And you know what those boardmember often don’t realize is that it is painfully obvious in the meeting who read the meeting minutes and the meeting packet and who did not read the meeting packet it is it comes out, you’re you’re gonna be you’re gonna be you’re gonna be exposed, you might not be called out, but it’s going to be obvious, right? All right. Um, confidentiality right way got to keep the organization’s promise is close to us, right? And it’s, not just confidentiality within, like, in terms of inside the organization’s. Obviously, what is said in the board meeting does not go outside of the organization, but it all does not go to other staff. So, you know, so any staff member not present in the board meeting should also not be privy to the deliberation of the board and one more that you have rules of engagement dahna whether you have authority to represent the organization, talk about that one, right? So, you know, so oftentimes they’re our board members, i shouldn’t think oftentimes sometimes there are board members who feel that they have the authority to speak on behalf of the organisation every now and then. In fact, when i started one, jobs and executive director someone to actually find a contract on behalf of the organization, they were not a boardmember they did not have the authority to do so, and we had to find a way to back out of that contract, you know? So they also do not have the authority to individually sign a contract unless the board has voted and given them that authority. Now all these rules should be adopted by the board, right? That’s what you were saying earlier, but right, right, but and i also think that the board should sit down and see and have a discussion and see if there’s other rules of engagement that are appropriate for them as a board and again to meet these air different from expectations, you know, you know, expectations are, you know, attendance personal giving expectations are a little bit higher level than rules of engagement, right? And that’s, another part of your book expectations, i just i feel like a lot of guests have covered those, but i’ve never seen you know, we haven’t talked. About rules of engagement and and some of these that you’re talking about, like the like the civility and the the the naysaying, the naysayers way have covered those before. So i like like, this whole this also area the book, and if i could say the civility is really a very positive way of saying no bomb throwers kind of like naysayers, we’ve all seen bomb throwers and board meetings and it’s it’s not effective for the board, you have any, uh, any and any bad stories you want to tell. Oh gosh, you know, i’ve only been permanent executive director of your organization, so i don’t want to get anybody in trouble by telling that story, but by telling a story, but but i will share with you that that i have seen one board where, at every single meeting, you know, this person was completely and totally negative, not just being in a sayer, but completely and totally negative about everything and, you know, was literally throwing, you know, little mini bombs into the meeting to kind of set up disagreements between other board members and then we just sit back and watch them fight for goodness. And obviously that someone who we had to move off the board, i should say, right, right, totally negative influence. Yeah. Okay. Um, let’s go teo to our committee structure, revitalizing committees. Why don’t you want to open this when our pal you want to start with with this kind of work, you know, one of the things that i said before that, you know, really ineffective board, a supercharged board does the vast majority of its work through committees, committees will always have a larger bandwidth and a deeper bench of expertise to deliberate on strategic issues that are facing an organization is part of that one of the things that i recommend is that every committee have an annual plan, so, you know, so they know what they’re responsible for that year. Ideally, they’ll have to read a four goals for the year, but then they also say, ok, if we’re gonna have, you know, six meetings every other month, meeting one we want to cover x meeting to we want to cover something else meeting three, so so that way they’re always moving the ball forward on these projects, but they’re they’re also making sure that what? They do is in alignment with the strategic plan and the organizational goals. You said it earlier. The work of the board is done through the committees. Right. Okay, so we need our committees to be effective and revitalized. As you say in the book, let’s, talk through some of the essential committees. Just in case people are not familiar with the work of the executive committee is so, you know, so often times. And let me say that some organizations have justin executive committee. Some organizations have just a governance committee, and some have both and there’s. And depending what the structure is, sometimes there’s some overlap between those two committees. But, you know, typically what the executive committee does, is it it sets the agenda for board meetings. It it liberates or makes decisions on behalf of the board between meetings when absolutely necessary, that should not happen on a regular basis. And then if there’s not a governance committee. Oftentimes the executive committee is also responsible for enforcing expectations, you know, ensuring the committee’s air meeting on a timely manner, ensuring that conflicts of interest are disclosed and deliberated and voted on by the full board. But if there is a governance committee that typically goes to the governing committee now, just like the committee’s air setting ah plan for the year is the executive committee setting up a board plan for the year? Absolutely, you know, ideally in its first month of the year, the new executive committee wants to sit down and think about what the strategic plans goals are for the year, determine which committees can help drive those goals forward and then and then work with those committees. They developed their annual plan as well. Now off. And i think also a part of that, and this is going to bleed over a little bit latto making meetings effective. The executive committee also needs to figure out what the organization’s calendar is, including the board calendar, and make sure that that is in the plan as well. The all the committee chairs sit on the executive committee, right? And it depends for some organizations. Every committee chair sits on the executive committee and other organizations. That’s, just the officers and, you know, again, to a great extent, it probably depends whether there’s a separate governance committee or not. Okay. Okay, so it’s so. Meaning, if you have a separate governance committee, then what? You, you don’t need all the committee chairs on the board, on the executive committee. So, you know, so, so if you’ve got a separate governance committee, then you might actually want all of the committee chairs on your executive committee, because because then what they’re doing, they’re setting the agenda, and and they’re doing sort of, like, very high level board work. But if there’s, not a governance committee and the executive committee, is also responsible for enforcing expectations, ensuring disclosure of conflicts of interest, you know, those those legal obligations that every board needs to be taken care of? You probably want a smaller group of people working on that, okay, so strike three for me, it’s a good thing. I’m the host of this show because i misread that one, too, okay, sorry here, all right. Yeah. It’s a good thing. I’m in charge of the show. All right, let’s. See what else? Another committee finance. And i was finance. Is this the same as the investment committee on a lot of boards krauz investment? Yeah. So? So a lot of aa lot of boards called the finance committee, the finance and investment committee. Some board called the finance an audit committee, but, you know, but typically, especially in the smaller organizations, the finance committee ends up being responsible for the audit, for investments and everything that falls underneath it. Okay. And, of course, a lot more detail in the book. You gotta you just gotta get the book. I’m going to say successful non-profits build supercharged boards. Now the committees that we have they are they’re all supposed to be meeting in advance of full board meetings, right? You i think you recommend a couple of weeks before, right? Right. So in the in the ideal world between every board meeting, all of the committee’s need as well, because every committee is in some way responsible for goals in the strategic plan and it’s helping to drive that forward. So if the committee’s air not doing their work between board meetings, the board meetings are just honestly, no, do not do not move the organization forward is not all right, let’s talk about the fund-raising or development committee what’s your advice there. So, you know, in terms of the fundraising committee, i think it is absolutely critical that and again, this is often for small and medium sized organizations that either have did either have limited or or no fund-raising staff, it is absolutely critical that they start their year looking at actual fund-raising strategies from the prior year determining what was effective, what isn’t, or going, what, as a committee and an organization they want to do again in the coming year and, you know, and i also think it’s it is essential that the fundraising committee have a voice and what the board give get is going to be they don’t ultimately have the decision, but they should have a voice in that on that that goes over to one of the expectations of board board e-giving right, okay, right now, each of these committees needs to have a staff liaison. This is this is going to get a little staff intensive, i am i? I am all about every committee should have a staff liaison. And and really, the role of that staff person is not to run the committee, but it is to help keep the committee on track. And so, as an example of the staff liaison, would help the chair buy-in putting together an agenda and sometimes that’s a friendly reminder sometimes it’s being pleasantly persistent, which is a nice way to say kind of nag, but, you know, but to make sure that the chair puts together an agenda and that it goes out to arrange all logistics for the meeting, so is a room reserved. You know, if you normally have iced tea at your meetings is they’re iced tea there to make sure that the agenda is sent to all of the committee members before the meeting, along with any other information that they’re supposed to review. And then finally, in the ideal world, your staff liaison also takes minutes at the meeting and then send those to the chair of the committee to review and approved before they get sent out. What about the executive committee? Is the ceo or executive director? They have a staff liaison to the executive committee. So in really small, non-profits, you know, so organizations that might only have two or three staff members, yeah, than absolute. The executive director end up serving as the staff liaison in a medium sized organization where the where the ceo or executive director has an executive assistant themselves. They might task the executive assistant with that. Okay. All right, that’s, the that’s, the well we should. We should talk on touch on that that there might be a program committees also that based on your you all your programmatic work, right? And the tough thing with program committees, especially when when the organization has staff, is to ensure that the program committees are operating at a strategic level and not an operational level, and to make sure that the committee really understands what their role is in that respect. And so on example, that i that i often give is, you know, whether whether program operates from seven thirty to three, thirty or eight to four is probably a staff decision. You know where as whether or not a program measures its outcomes is a strategic decision. Okay, right. We don’t want our board meddling in the day to day operations hiring, hiring and supplies and mundane things like that that are taking away from the boards much higher and much more strategic purpose. Right? Okay. All right. Let’s. Look att effective meetings now you talked about the agenda is the importance of agendas. Anything more you want to say about about how important those are? Oh. Absolutely so to me, the real point of putting together an agenda is not just to tell everyone that’s going to be in the meeting, what will happen at the meeting, but it also forces the act of putting together an agenda forces the person leading the meeting to really think through what their goals are for that meeting and to make sure that what happened in the meeting supports those gold. I like your suggestion of putting time limits on each agenda item. I do that when i for the few meetings that i that i conduct usually i’m sitting in them, but i’m not leading them, but when i do, i like to put the time limits so everybody sees it in black and white, and i don’t know how you feel about this. I appoint a timekeeper so it’s it’s somebody different than me? I’m paying attention to the substance of the meeting and the flow, but not the exact timing. Absolutely. I always believe there should be a timekeeper in the ideal world, someone different from the person running the meeting, but the other thing on time and this is something that i’m really adamant about. Especially when there’s a call an option or if or if it’s an entire, you know, teleconference meeting is the meeting has to start on time, so, you know, so even if you don’t have a core on well, you go ahead and you get started when we when we delay the start of a meeting, what we’re really doing this, we’re punishing the people that showed up on time, and we’re rewarding the people who did not show up my welcome. What can we do without what could we do without a quorum, though? Well, so so there’s some things you could do, like, obviously you can’t take votes, but you can start to have some of those strategic discussions. So, you know, so anything that is a report out or just a strategic discussion you can still do without a quorum. You can’t take any votes without a quorum, but you can, you know, but you can have those discussions, okay? And, um, i also think that from from day one, your first meeting, you tell people it’s going to start on time and then you actually do start on time and the late comers they’re going to get the message from meetings too and forward, right, and and also share with you, especially again when there’s a call an option or if the meeting is entirely by phone. You know, i am all about the meeting starts on time, but also late comers. You hear the ding. But we don’t stop the meeting to reintroduce you, to tell you who is present, to tell you what we have already done because otherwise will interrupt the meeting three or four times. So the way i tended when i run those meetings, the way i tend to ask people calling into phone conferences late is to wait until they have something to say in a conversation, and then they introduce themselves. And so for example, they would say, this is dalton, and i want to add, and then they would essentially say they’re comment. Okay, okay, we just have a minute before we have to before we have to wrap it up and let’s leave people with the the importance of minutes in our minute. I’m starting the importance of the minutes, the committee, and it went on the board minutes, you know, so the minutes are the official record of what the committee has done, as well as what the board is done. And, you know, in the ideal world, someone from the outside should be able to read those minutes and have a good sense of the official action of the organization, as well as its goals and issues that it is working on resolving outstanding. We’re gonna leave it there. Dolph the book, thank you, my pleasure. The book is successful. Non-profits build supercharged boards, get the book there’s so much more in it than we could cover here on non-profit radio, i thank you very much. Thank you, your content calendar coming up. First, pursuant, you know who these people are? They have developed tools that help small and midsize non-profits raise the money raised the money that you need to raise falik prospector and velocity. You know, i talk about thes time after time because they’re helpful, and they’re perfect for our audience, even the velocity tool, which was developed for their internal consultants pursuing consultants, running campaigns for their clients. Well, you could get the tool without the without the consultant and that when his velocity and prospector, one that helps you manage time against goal full dashboard keeping you on task day after day, week after week toward that campaign goal, check out these tools at pursuant dot com and we be spelling spelling bees for non-profit fund-raising this is not the spelling bee you grew up with, probably because they bring in stand up comedy, there’s, dance, there’s, booze, there’s, live music. And somewhere in there, the squeezing a spelling bee and fund-raising and not just fund-raising that night, but fund-raising in advance. So it’s ah, i love this because it’s just unusual fund-raising model i haven’t seen spelling bees for fund-raising i got knocked out of a spelling. Bee once on the word lettuce, can you believe it? Let us because spelling bees i don’t know if they’re this formal, but the ones i was in you couldn’t make a mistake and i went, i said, l u e t you see, but it’s too late. I had made the mistake. You’re out out on the word lettuce killed me and the winner of that spelling bee one on aeronautics hyre like i could’ve had the whole thing, but i choked on lettuce. Ever since then i’ve only eating kale. All right, check him out. We be spelling dot com and b is b e now, time for tony’s. Take two solitude. This is important for you because you work in a giving profession. You’re even if you’re back office, you know that your office is giving. Your organization is giving its saving lives. It’s, it’s changing the world. This is this is draining, exhausting work. And you have to take time for yourself. So i strongly suggest. And i hope you did this summer. Or you will as the summer comes to a close. Get time alone. Unconnected. No phones, no text, no e mail disconnected. No. Instagram no snapchat get away and i urge you ah, a little a little jovially in my video this week, it is way beyond typical weekly videos. This one even has a cast and crew. So we need to check out my solitude video. No, a solitude with a cast at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two leinheiser love. They will do it a little concisely this time live love going out to everybody. Who’s listening. Now, at this moment you know who you are. You know where you are. The live love goes out. It goes out every single week. Whether alive or pre recorded, the live love goes out. What follows that it’s the podcast pleasantries. I am so grateful for all the tens of that tens. Ten thousand over ten thousand not quite tens of thousands, but the over ten thousand listeners listening in that time shift whatever device, whatever time, whatever activity you are engaged in pleasantries to you and likewise affections to our am and fm affiliate listeners throughout the country, from upstate new york and outside philadelphia in lancaster county to washington and oregon and california and points in between. Affections to our affiliate listeners on the am and fm stations here’s, a panel from ntcdinosaur, and we talked about your content calendar. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc non-profit technology conference were in san jose, california, at the convention center, and this is also part of ntc conversations, my guests, now our laura norvig, james porter and heavy larue miller going to meet them very shortly. First, i have to shout out the inten thie ntc swag item for this interview is popcorn from microsoft, microsoft popcorn, and i have it from our production assistant, anna hannah who’s. Excellent, that this is very good popcorn. Great. We’re gonna add this to the swag pile carefully. Of course, they don’t want it disseminated across the pile and making everything oily, but i will take a couple pieces for myself. Microsoft popcorn okay. See, the closest to me is laura norvig she is a digital media strategist at tr james porter is associate director for external relations at the end. Fund-raising clolery miller is a founder, the founder of non-profit marketing guide, which is that non-profit marketing guy dot com laura james e-giving welcome, thank you. Thank you telling e-giving welcome back. Absolutely good, thank you. Content calendars and you creating communications harmony. That is your seminar topic. Uh, let’s start the star in the middle. James, what do you think? Non-profits they’re not getting quite right could do better about content calendars or maybe even just having one? I don’t know, right? Yeah, well, it starts off with just having one, but i think a lot of the the problems stem from first of all, not knowing what you want or what you need. There are a lot of tools out there and so is something that i wanted to get across. Was that you, khun? Try things and if they don’t work that’s okay, but i think one of the biggest problems is just not not realizing what you need and what what you want. And if you need something from or long term planning. You need something for data. The project management. Do you need a tool? That’s going to be everything? Or do you just need to fill in gaps with some of your existing tools? There’s a whole host of other problems. But i think step one is just really trying to figure out what you want and what your organization needs are. Okay, laura, anything you want to add at this overviewing point? Well, i know sometimes people struggle with as james said, trying to make your calendar maybe do too much and you wantto keep it simple. One of the other things people experience is getting people to actually use the calendar, so keeping it simple can help. Okay. Okay, kivi, anything for us to get us started kick us off. I think people know they need to plan, but then they don’t have time to plan, and so they run around and don’t feel strategic field too busy feel like they’re too many priorities. But then they don’t give themself a chance to stop and think. And the editorial calendar really is a way to stop and think and be more strategic. Okay, on the editorial calendar is the same, but it’s our can’t content calendar, right? Something okay, um all right, so let’s, let’s, uh, let’s get started with what should be in one? I don’t know e-giving you want to kick us off? What some ideas? What? Sharing your content calendar. So in order for it to be an editor of calendar there three pieces one is the communications channels you’re sending out your content in the second piece is the timing behind that when things are going out and the third piece is the messaging what you’re actually talking about so it’s, what you’re talking about when you’re talking about it and in which communication channels, you have to have those three things or in my mind, it’s, not an editorial calendar. Okay, james, you’re doing a lot of nodding. Yeah, i would also add to that that it’s important to also have who is responsible and who is the driver for these things and for for our content calendar anyway, because if you have a lot of people using it, you need to know who to go to jazz questions about that item who’s going to be in charge of posting. It so i think it’s also important to have that, and then i i also would add that making sure somewhere maybe it’s, not in your exact tool, but we’d like to put it in our tool is to also include your audience so that, you know, for each item in your editorial calendar who the audience is going to be, that that’s the right who the messages that particular messages for yeah, but to be very specific about it. And so we you could even do it, split it out by channels so that if you have different audiences on different channels, but the for me that it’s very important to be specific about the audience. Okay, okay, laura, anything you’d like to add about what belongs in our calendar. I think those are pretty much the basics. And then, uh, we sometimes layer on top the pushing out to social and so you could use your calendar as a tool to track so again the channels. But yeah, tracking them twitter and facebook, as well as a block poster newsletter. Okay, okay, very good. What? Yeah. So? So where were you? We’re developing a calendar. That’s got that gun, each message or each campaign? I mean, does it have has our campaigns that also has messages within the campaign? Is it? Is it that granular? I think that’s going to depend on your organization. You know, whether that’s the way you messages through a long campaign and that’s, one of the things we talked about was the long term planning. You can stretch the campaign out over time, but not that’s not gonna fit all or yeah. Okay. Yeah. And i would just add that for us, it does include every message. So for example, we had campaigner on giving tuesday. That was a video campaign, and we had a different video being pushed out every day. And so each one of those messages was individually posted on the editorial calendar. Along with what channel they were being pushed out through every day. For how long? How long before giving tuesday did you start this? There were five. There were five videos, and then the whole campaign we started when you got a tease, it let people know things were coming, so yeah, it was about about a week in total for the campaign. Okay. All right. Anything else you want to say about what belongs? What that covers it. Okay. I like the idea of making sure somebody’s responsible for each each item, right? You gotta know who to talk to without responsibility. This calendar is not goingto not going to get accomplished. Yeah, we actually go to the level of kind of the process planning. So not only who’s maybe writing a block post. Who’s got snusz edited who’s going to copy, edit it. Who’s goingto posted who? You know. So, dan, are you? There were a lot of non-profits that only had one person in their communications department. However, so in that kind of situation, you know, you don’t need to write your name on every single box, right? Well, that could be a message for the ceo. That’s i like that. Look at all this. My name is next on all this and expect me to achieve this. All right? Uh, who was involved in adopting this this calendar? Because we need to have make make sure that the organization is going to accept it. It’s going to buy-in, but they need to be a part of the process. I would think that makes it a lot easier to have them accepted, so give you let’s start with you had around, we start to get this thing well, at what stage we bring others in, right? So i think it is going very from organization to organization and then session. We did talk a lot about getting buy-in from program staff because they’re often the source of the content that’s where the really good stories come from and getting there buy-in as content creators really seeing themselves as communicators is really important, but then it’s also important to get the executive team involved because they’re the ones that really need to set the strategy for the messaging and lots of times there’s a lot of conflicting priorities, too many priorities, too much going on, really a lot of mixed messaging and in those situations it’s really up to the management team to provide some direction. But you know, those air, those air, often times for communications, director’s relationships that have to be built over time. And so i always urge a communications department to just do it, do it themselves. Do it to manage their own workload. And then hopefully over time, you’re really making it a much more organization wide tool. Okay, how does it work within your organizations? Get getting the organizational buy-in yeah, yeah, i would just say that i think you khun get people’s opinions, but it really matters the most of the people who are going to be using it the most on the day to day, those people have to be the most comfortable with it and really be the most okay with it. So, yeah, it is important to get by and from other people, but it it could also be a problem when you have an existing tool that is there already. And you have a new staff coming in and the new staff say, ok, this tool doesn’t actually work for me. So it was something that i mentioned in the session that i thought was important. Wass that to do periodic check ins. And maybe every six months, you kind of a gut check and ask the staff are using the tool. Is this tool still working for us? Do we need to add anything to it? Do we need? To consider changing it because just because you’re using it doesn’t mean it’s working. So i think it is also important to have kind of periodic check ins to make sure that it’s doing what you needed to do, okay, get laura has that work in europe? Well, that yeah, that’s one of the things we talked about in the session was was not being afraid to change your tool if it’s just not working in sometimes that’s a little hard to dio, as i was saying, we work in an orgy where sharepoint is kind of designated bi i ity but it really wasn’t working for us, so i did have a small enough content team that we just kind of went rogue, and and we’re using our own solution with trey lo and yeah, yeah, any other online resource is that you want to share for creation of your of your editorial calendar, a valuable patrol? Oh, fan myself. I’ve also used a base camp before they base camp base camp base camp has been useful and something i mentioned the session to was that i thought it was useful to for me anyway. Tohave in one place. Both a project management software and a content countering which trailer could do as well? It’s a certain degrees, you know, but and it starts getting messy when you have lots of systems and lots of tools, so the more you can integrate things or just have one tool that could do most things. There’s, no one to look and do all but that’s. Why i like to i like to base camp for having the project management and also a more robust calendar. I’ve seen a lot of organizations use google calendars very successfully because you can layer them what you can do with sharepoint too. But it but there could be so you could have separate calendars. But then you can have a view where there rolled up and you can see all of the calendar’s together. So maybe you have, you know, one of your silos if you have a siloed organization development or something and maybe program staff and they’re each working on their own calendar with either ideas or post there actually writing and then the editorial staff could see them both together. Get a bigger picture. Okay, xero the conflict points right cd you. Have too much content, too little. Yeah. Okay. All right. Where else should we go with with our content calendar? You know, we have ah, good. Another ten minutes or so together. What? What else should we be talking about? Well, i definitely think in this session, the buy-in was still a big issue. I don’t know give me waited like audience members were having trouble with having getting buy-in yeah, what? I think that was a big one, as well as the too many priorities and not enough strategy. So, you know, i really encourage people to just do it themselves if they’re not getting direction on what the limited number of messages should be or what the strategy really is. I say go ahead and you decide is the communications director and believe me, you’ll get feedback if you do something, they didn’t like it but it’s better to go ahead and provide some of that internal leadership from sort of managing from the middle, then to keep kind of floundering around. Yeah, and i think it also can be very tempting to say, okay, we have this editorial calendar, um and that’s our strategy, but it’s it’s not having editorial calendar isn’t a strategy and of itself, so we did talk about long term planning and needing that strategy, so the editorial counter needs to be informed by a strategy, but i think you can fall into the trap that you have the editorial counter, you’ve put everything on it, but then you forget about the strategy, okay, it’s, when you go over and you do the strategy and it doesn’t match with your editorial caldnear calendar, i think that was that was a problem that that came up in, that those two things don’t planning and strategy aren’t always hand in hand, and i would also just add that there was a fair amount of angst in the room about people feeling like planning than miree resulted in this rigid system that they couldn’t then produce any timely content within on. So, you know, what i always tell people is, you know, practice the rule of thirds, so a third of the calendar should be original curated content. Another third is you repurpose ing your original and curated content, and then you leave a third of your calendar open because, you know, stuff is going to come up, you may not know what it is, but something’s going to come up, so don’t over plan, but make sure you do have strategy built into that original content in that third in the in the repurpose content in that second, third, ok, yeah, that’s, really important. So i used to work for the international rescue committee, and they deal with man made and nature made disasters. And so you always needed to have that flexibility in your calendar. So even if it was a big women’s themed campaign in the spring that you have been planning for six months, you need to be able to have a little bit of room within that messaging to be flexible. If a tsunami happens or an earthquake happens or, you know, there’s, famine somewhere you need to be able to quickly pivot. Teo needs that. You need to react you right away without jeopardising everything else that you’re trying to get accomplished and a good content calendar. As katie said, we’ll leave room for those things. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profit to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m christine cronin, president of n y charities dot orc. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. How do you deal with the case? Where you’ve you’ve got your calendar on dh? The organization is not respecting it. Maybe i don’t know if this is just the buy-in but, you know, other other other teams are saying no, no, no, i need this now, you know, or or some some something comes up from above that comes down from above that is now impinge ing on your ability to keep up with your own calendar, you know? But you respected my calendar when i showed it to you six months ago, and now you’re ignoring it for this other administrative thing or for this program problem or this fund-raising problem. But what you you dissing my calendar? What? What do we do? Stop dissing might stop beating up my calendar. Whatever you do, laura. What? Teo? Well, i think one of the things we talked about was showing people the process of what it really takes to roll out communications to kind of push back on that last minute. Itis because there is a process and it needs to be followed. So unless it’s an emergency coming directly from the ceo, you know, like step off, i can’t make that a priority now waken talk later. I mean it’s a process of education. So gotta make yourself heard. Yeah, i would agree with that. I think the mohr outside players can understand how much times something takes, how much time it takes it posa blogged, or to edit a photo or something that they the constant calendar maybe doesn’t do a great job of articulating that. Like how much lead time you need? Sure, it doesn’t get x product up, so it might be very tempting to say oh, well, you’ve got this big, you know, forge a hole between item one and item to let me put something between those two. And no, i need those four days to get item to done. So i think the education that you have to be able to say no and i need the four days i cannot do that. Otherwise item two will get done. So i think content calendars are not good at that. So that’s where the education piece comes. And james, you also talked about reinforcing it in face to face meeting. So if you have, like, a regular staff meeting where you khun very quickly go over the calendar, then it’s it’s going to start to become more clear. Okay, make it public office. Oh, yeah, we we go over. So we have ah, communications meeting once a week. And as part of that meeting, we review the content calendar with somebody from our program’s staff is balls that they’re aware of what’s going on? Sometimes you do need to check what’s in the plan right now. So i think in those situations, you just need to be very clear and articulating the trade off. So if you’re going to bump something, you’ve been planning for something that’s more timely. You need to actually say hay. We’re bumping this thing way, rescheduling it. Or are we completely throwing the work out? There’s an implication here? All right. And there is no plan for this reason, right? There was a purpose for this. And this is what is not now going to be fulfilled. Right? And sometimes you can use it later. You know, if it’s more sort of evergreen in nature, you just bump it down a month. Other times, you know, it’s lost work. But those were strategic decisions that you have to make and that’s where again, having some executive understanding of the communication strategy is important to help the communications team really make good decisions in those situations because they do come up all the time. All right, when are our boundaries respected? Right? Yes. Like i said, stop dissing my calendar. All right, so you guys spent the you all spent a lot of time, uh, in your session. What more should we be talking about? We’ve got another, like, four minutes for five minutes. What else? Whatever we talked about or what more detail maybe about something we we didn’t cover in sufficient detail. Come on. How’d you do ninety minutes together? What would you do for ninety minutes? Well, we turned it back on the audience quite a bit and had them tell us more about what the challenge is, where they were facing so and then you want share some of those challenges that we haven’t talked about? Yeah, short for detail going. You know what? One of the one of the challenges was also just time straight up. We don’t have enough time. So something that can can happen with a constant calendar, which i mentioned. When i was talking with then you have to schedule into your schedule the time to put things on the content calendars, it becomes another task on your list, you know, there’s another half hour of my time when especially for non-profits i don’t have a huge communications staff, it almost seems like it’s, just another thing that you have to do and there’s only two of you and you need to get everything else done. Anyway, i was thinking even just one yeah, i know we had a lot of people we did a little poland said, how many of you are our team of one? And you’re like a third? Yeah, of people who are just by themselves on, and so i think time was a big thing, but but i think that it content calendar can actually give you back some time, because if you’re it helps you plan longer term, if you’re going to use it that way, and so you, then you don’t have to constantly be thinking, well, what am i turning out next week? What am i posting on facebook on friday? Because of, you know already you’ve already done it, so yeah. It can it can take time to do, but it can also make you use your very precious time better than you would without it. All right, so you think it’s worth doing it for the one person short? I think it’s worth it for the one person shot because it just kind of keeps you accountable for what you’re doing rather than every day saying what my posting today, you know, one of the things i shared was that i originally used to do a lot of winging it, and i had a certain kind of a siri’s of facebook posts that i wanted to do, and every monday i was sitting down and thinking of one, and then when i kind of laid it out in a spreadsheet is like, you know what? I can plan like ten of these and schedule them in advance, and now i don’t have to think about it again, so thinking ahead in a calendar kind of way, actually, it did end up saving me time. Good is it worth if you don’t feel you can put every you know, every facebook post into account encounter having you’re bigger, you’re bigger items. All right, we know there’s gonna be a press release required for this announcement, and we know there’s going to be something coming out of the board of trustees meeting and this month, you know, so maybe just putting the biggest items there, you know, maybe not the day to day at least you got something down, right? You got a framework give me to work from yeah, so like a lot of people will just do their block post in their email, assuming that they’re going to repurpose all that into social and so they don’t talk about every single thing they’re going to talk about on facebook same thing with video that tends to be a little more production heavy, and so you’re doing video. You kinda want to treat that almost like a block post in terms of the production schedule to give yourself the time to do it, but you’re right, there’s bigger chunks of content are usually what goes on the calendar, and then a lot of people just sort of in their daily work process. No, that that’s going to go out on facebook or twitter, what other social channels are using? Okay, all right, laura, why don’t you wrap us up with final motivation? Why this is worth doing well, it’s going to help you see the big picture and it’s going to help you navigate your daily to do list a cz well and i think it’s just going to keep you more confident that you’re staying on task and hitting the themes you want to hit for your communications. Okay, thank you very much. Laura. James givi. Thankyou. Thankyou. Tony there. Lord norvig, digital media strategist that e t r james porter, associate director of external relations at the end fund-raising guide and also author and you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc thank you so much for being with us next week. Design on a budget and communications mythbusters. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we be spelling dot com. Our creative producer was claire buyer off sam liebowitz is the line producer. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez. And as music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Duitz what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation i expected to hell you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for April 3, 2015: Dan Pallotta And Charity Defense Council & Your CEO/Board Chair Partnership

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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My Guests:

Dan PallottaCharity Defense Council

He’s the guy behind the 2013 viral TED video “The Way We Think About Charity Is Dead Wrong.” Now he runs the Charity Defense Council, because nonprofits have no anti-defamation cause.

 

 

 

John FulwiderYour CEO/Board Chair Partnership

How do you cultivate this critical relationship? What should they be asking each other? John Fulwider is a consultant and author of “Better Together.”

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer scrub typhus if i got bitten by the notion that you missed today’s show damn piela and charity defense counsel he’s, the guy behind the twenty thirteen viral ted video now he runs the charity defense counsel because non-profits have no anti defamation cause and your ceo board chair partnership. How do you cultivate this critical relationship? What should they be asking each other? John fulwider is a consultant and author of better together on tony’s take to storytelling and a fellowship opening. We’re sponsored by opportunity collaboration, the working meeting on poverty reduction that will ruin you for every other conference. Terrific pleasure to welcome to the show, dan piela he’s, the founder and president of the charity defense counsel at charity defense counsel dot or ge he created the multi day charitable event industry when one hundred eighty two thousand people participated in the aids rides and breast cancer three days that plot a team works created he’s, the author of uncharitable how restraints on non-profits undermined their potential. You probably saw his viral ted video the way we think about charity is dead wrong. He’s at dan, pull out a dot com, and at dan piela on twitter, dan. Welcome to the show. Okay, tony, thanks for having me, it’s. My pleasure. Thank you for being with us. Did i beat the hell out of you when we were kids? No, i you know, be careful, ly i went to high school with a kid named tommy tony martignetti and, uh, the only fist fight of my life and i didn’t fare well in it. And when and when we spoke a week ago or so, i just had to make sure you weren’t the same. Tony martignetti but sounds like, you know, i’m not i i had never beaten anybody up. I’ve lost a bunch of fights when i was young, but i ran away from most of them. I was a pretty quick runner, so that saved me from a lot of beatings. I used to play hockey, i was a goalie, and when i would have a fight with someone with that right handed waffle glove, that was that was nothing for them to overcome that would put them out, right? You’re the big guy big guy in front of the goal, then it’s, right? Save the save the team from from aa a goal and trying to save the world now, are you you still skating it all skating on ice? You know, when the kids go skate and go skating with the kids i got three kids. I got triplets there. Seven there’s, seven years old. And so i dragged escape. Sometimes i tell people triplets really? How many? That’s? Wonderful. Congratulations on triplets. I think that’s great that’s. Terrific. Yeah, wonderful. Why do we need a charity defense counsel? Why do we need a charity defense counsel? Because, amazingly, unbelievably, somehow the nonprofit sector which organizes people on behalf of all kinds of causes is not organized itself. So if you look at any successful movement for change, there are a few basic functions that those movements have that the non-profits sack sector lacks utterly and completely so. Four things essentially first, we don’t have an anti defamation force, you know? So we get the famed in the media all the time, and we have no powerful organized voice to offer the general public and alternative point of view. You know, the gay and lesbian community has the anti has glad the jewish community has the anti defamation league. We have nothing like that. Now, what about independent sector? They would say that they’re they’re that kind of a voice. Independent sector isn’t chartered to be an anti defamation force, you know? So they do their work on the hill, and they try to make sure that, you know, they were originally charted to make sure that that the non profit sector never loses the tax exemption, so that was their original charter. So say they work a lot on the federal level on big public policy issues, but they’re not specifically chartered to be the media organisation any more than, you know, the some of the big, like the the human rights campaign is chartered to be a gn anti defamation mechanism for the gay and lesbian community that’s why the gay and lesbian community specifically has get glad the gay and lesbian alliance against defamation so we don’t have anything with that kind of specific charter and specific expertise. Secondly, we don’t have any kind of a public facing ad strategy, you know, the way the pork producers in the nineteen eighties got together and change the image of pork with pork, the other white milk bottles got together and came up with got milk in the face of big challenges by the bottled water in the sports drink industry wasn’t anything like that were never taken out a full page ad in the new york times to say anything about our sectors of the first two things, the third thing is we don’t have ah legal defense fund. So all kinds of counterproductive public legislation and regulation gets proposed, especially at the state and local level, and we have no apparatus for combating that are educating, for example, state’s, attorney’s, general and last but not least, we don’t have a database, we’re not organized, we don’t have a database of the ten million people employed in the sector, you know, we don’t have anything close to that, so we can’t bring that powerful voice to bear on the issues that we really care about. So the charity defense counsel is to fill those voids. Do you see the statistic that charity’s represent roughly a tenth of the gdp of the country, which would be around a trillion and a half dollars in assets and money through in a year? Do you? Is that something a little more than a trillion dollar annual sector? You know, it’s huge in the end, the idea that it doesn’t have any systematic form of a comprehensive treyz just this morning, as you mentioned, the pork board and milk and you know, i’m learning on the subway that a tablespoon of peanut butter has seven ounces of protein, you know, from the peanut board, so you know, yeah, imagine if you learn that, contrary to popular belief, the amount of money that charity spends on overhead is correlated to its ability to have an impact on them or that it spends on its own growth mohr impact that can have that would be great. We’re actually running digital billboards in very high profile locations on highways in massachusetts right now that tell people don’t ask if a charity has low overhead, ask if it has a big impact and that’s the first time that we’ve ever spoken to anyone other than ourselves about these things let’s talk a little about ah, something that i know you’re a strong advocate of. Ah, investing in fund-raising and what the failure to do that means for for people whose lives we’re trying to save. Yeah, you know the question is always asked, you know, what are you spending on? Fund-raising how much are you spending on? Fund-raising and the question is not what is your fund-raising costing you it? What is your unwillingness to invest more money in fund-raising costing you you know, you look for example, a wounded warrior project they didn’t exist fifteen years ago, and in two thousand six they were spending about a million five on fund-raising on, and they had about five million left over for programs they had about a forty four percent fund-raising an admin ratio, and you look at that and say, well, that’s beyond what any of the watchdogs say, so wounded warrior project should just cut down on that overhead. They went in the other direction, they spent more money on fund-raising so that’s six years later, they went from a million spent on fund-raising twenty million spent on fund-raising their revenue went from ten million to two hundred million. The money available for veterans went from five million to one hundred and fourteen million um all because they were willing to buck the system and invest in their growth and it’s that unwillingness of organizations to invest in growth because of the cultural pressure put on them. It’s literally killing people, it’s keeping these organizations miniature up against the scale of the problem, but they can’t grow, they can’t ever possibly solve the problem what the donor doesn’t realize. The donor thinks i want low overhead because that’s what they’ve been taught, but what the donor really wants is the problem to get solved. What the donor really wants is mohr of the hungry to get fed and, paradoxically, counterintuitively, the path to ending hunger and curing breast cancer isn’t toe lower overhead. It isn’t the lower fund-raising costs it’s increased those things so that we can grow the size of these organizations and they have a shot at combating these problems. I get it, i get enormously frustrated when i see that, um gives to charity are so consistent at two percent of of whatever the aggregate is that it was gross domestic product or something. We’re just way don’t we haven’t found the way to get people to give mohr without taking without becoming a zero sum game, which it doesn’t have to be. Yeah, exactly. Charitable giving has been stuck in two percent of gdp for forty five years now, which means the non-profit sector isn’t taking any market share away from the for-profit sector, it isn’t convincing consumers to give money to charity instead. Of the budweiser into hershey’s, and the reason is it doesn’t spend any money convincing donors to give their money to charity instead of budweiser and her she’s now her, she spent five hundred eighty million dollars a year trying to convince the public to part with their money for chocolate loreal spends one point five billion dollars a year on advertising, trying to convince the public to part with their money for cosmetics. By contrast, susan komen, the breast cancer organization in two thousand twelve spent twenty five million dollars on advertising against lorry as one point five billion, and we would criticize coleman even for spending that twenty five million dollars on advertising. Well, if you don’t let these charities go out into the public media, television, advertising, radio, advertising, newspapers, billboards the way, every other big consumer brando they can’t excite peoples imaginations that can’t compete with the for-profit sector for the consumers dollar let’s go out for a breakdown. Of course you and i’ll keep talking about the work of the charity defense counsel and investment and scalability stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’ve got a ton of live listener love we’re going to start in the u s del valle, a texas new bern, north carolina live listener loved to you, lincoln, nebraska and i believe that’s, our upcoming guests. John fulwider who says on twitter he’s hoping for some live listener love i have to admonish you live listen, love is a privilege, not a right, and those who ask for it sometimes don’t get it. So watch that. But i am i am very generous with it but it’s not common to be asking for the live listen love it’s a it’s a privilege daisy missouri st louis, missouri many in new york, new york right here, bold in massachusetts and denver, colorado and live listener love to you and lots of people out west to including san francisco live listener love. And then we got a bunch of broad will get two podcasts, all of massachusetts that you are born. Is that right? Maybe that’s tony martignetti that’s, the tony martignetti who beat beat the heck out of you and he’s listening, tony, i love, you know only because you have the same name, not because you beat up damp latto i wish you could hit you with his hizmet what you call that? That glove is the glove waffle glove. I appreciated you with his rifle glove, because clearly the the anguish and the pain remain. All these years later, you still remember tony martignetti i gotta send podcast pleasantries. Everybody listens in the time shift, whatever device, whatever time, whatever day pleasantries to you and, of course, affiliate affections to our many affiliate stations throughout the country. Love you too, dan. Do you distinguish between impact and outcomes? Do you make that distinction? People do you know, i thought about that before, not really. I i put them in the same category. I don’t, i don’t know. Maybe they’re maybe they’re some p people who ah, are more purist about that. Okay, but now seems a semantic difference only to you. All right, but you want people donors to be focusing on the impact. The lives that are being saved. Changed? Yeah. What impact is the organization having? Actually, you know, the problem with the overhead ratio is it’s overly simplistic. And, you know, we as a culture are addicted to simplicity, so we got to be careful that we don’t trade one simplistic measure for another simplistic measure, and you’re starting to see that addiction to simplicity play out with the measurement of effectiveness now, because okay, so effectiveness has become the new trend. The new buzzword. You got to be careful because if you start rewarding charities for effectiveness, then they’ll start to pursue the problems that are easiest to solve and show effectiveness on because that’s, where the money will be easy to get, especially from grantmaker and and the problems that are more difficult to solve will get orphaned. So you want to ask the charity what? What are your goals? What progress are you making toward those goals? And how do you know? So i don’t necessarily care if you’re making progress, you might be working on a very difficult problem, but i want i want to know whether you care about whether or not you’re making progress. I want to know whether you measuring whether or not you’re actually making progress on the problem, so, you know, i encouraged the average doner look, you’re always going to give to the red cross one when a tsunami happens, you know, when some one ofthe tragedy happens, you’re always gonna give one hundred dollars or something. But in terms of your overall philanthropy, what is the cause you really care about? Figure that out? Which one of you passionate about? Then? Do some research on the organizations that are doing the best work in that area the same way you do research before you buy a car? Same way you do a lot of research before you vote for a presidential candidate, you know you owe it to yourself. It’s your money? You’re a philanthropist too, even though you might be giving a lot less than within warren buffett. Philanthropy means love of humanity you’re a philanthropist respect your money and your investment take the time to get to know the charity called them up go visit them. Go for a site visit. They’ll be happy to take you on a site. Visit that’s the best way to learn about the work that they’re doing. Not by looking at some rating on a website i had the c p a send me ah comment when he saw that you were going to be a guest on hey does audit work, and what he’s seen is the focus on the overhead ratio encouraging non-profits to miss report on their nine nineties putting what are clearly administrative expenses and into program program lines on their nine, ninety or in some kind of financial report? Yeah, well, you know, that’s a that’s a whole kind of a big dark secret in the sector, right? The sector knows that the public wants low overhead, so the sector has figured out all different kinds of waiting to give the public low overhead. One of those ways is by underspending on the things that they really need. Another ways to joint cost allocation. Now i’m a fan of joint cost allocation, but on ly, if your definition of the cause is the same as the consumer’s definition of the cause because you know what percentage goes to the cause depends on hot entirely on how you define it. If you define it very broadly and you include all kinds of expenses that the donor doesn’t think of cause related in your cause related line items, well, then you’re going to show a very high percentage going to the cause. But, you know, you run the risk of duping the consumer if your breast cancer organization and that you know, the donor thinks the money’s going to breast cancer research. But what you mean is it’s going to education and it’s going to events, and some of it’s going to research, then to me, that’s doing it disservice to the donor. We have jargon, jail on non-profit radio, but i think you clearly explained what you mean by the joint cost allocation. Um, but training teo trying to transcend it’s. Ah, probation is hard to come by in drug, in jail. Let’s see, there’s ah, there’s. A joking with you. By the way, you sound like you found dead. You’re not. You’re not taking me seriously. Are you mi dan? Yeah. Yeah. No. Okay. Jog in jail. It’s fun. Okay, no really being admonished. Um, this is ah ah, being adopted in a bunch of states, we’re seeing a regulatory trend where states are enacting by statute percentages that ah, either shouldn’t be allocated to overhead to be on a certain amount or must be allocated to program certain way. New york has jumped on the bandwagon. A lot of states air headed this way. Yeah. In new york, you know, they grants state grants to non-profits used to come with a twenty five percent overhead threshold. Then all of a sudden, as of january, andrew cuomo decided it should be. It should be fifteen percent, you know. On what basis? No, there was one organization, one one watchdog agency that once did a study to find out how much money should go to the cause versus overhead. And they serve in consumers and said, you know how much money do you think should goto overhead? Well, that’s like asking the general public. How long do you think jurassic surgery should take and then using? That is standard for thor asic surgeons. I mean, what does the general public know about how much overhead should be it’s? A complicated question. And it all depends on what you want is an outcome. The feeling is that it’s it’s partially public money because of the charitable deduction. So it becomes a political issue and come political issue. And but people say, you know, politicians say i want a lower overhead. I wanna lower overhead because i want more money going to the cause you know, overhead is part of the cause if you especially if you’re using money for growth if you if you can invest a dollar and fund-raising and turn it into ten dollars, wouldn’t you is a state want to put all your money into fund-raising instead of programs because you can multiply it by ten dollars? So you know, by forcing these charities not to spend on overhead, the state is getting a lot less bang for its buck. Out of its money overhead is part of the cause. Thank you. Outstanding. Ah, what? What? How do you know? How many states there are roughly that air there, even that have enacted these kinds of statutes or or considering them? Well, new york is a standout example right now, but but oregon past legislation that would strip the tax deductible status from from donations coming from charities that don’t meet a certain overhead threshold. Florida was about to do the same thing. Last year, the california attorney general was looking at eliminating the ability of charities to do joint cost allocation. Right now, the california attorney general wants to required charities to make a statement on any solicitation that there’s a professional fundraiser involved and to me, you know so well, why does an apple have to put on their iphone that there were professional engineers involved in people being paid, you know, x amount of money to build the iphone? Those aren’t those aren’t the questions you should be asking, what is somebody being paid? What you want to know is what value is somebody being producing for the money they’re being paid now? It could be somebody’s being paid very low, but they’re not doing a goddamn thing, so they’re the ones you know, really ripping the charity off. So you, you know, you really want to ask not what is the dollar amount, but what is the ratio of value to dollar spent? That’s the important question, you know, any business school student would be thrown out in year one if they didn’t do a cost benefit analysis duitz but we never do them with charity salaries. We look a figure four hundred thousand dollars we so that’s way too much get rid of the person or throw them in jail. You know what? How do you know that person isn’t capable of making for a million dollars in the for-profit sector? And then that that they haven’t produced three times as much in the way of a result of the lesser paid person? Would so it’s it’s just a really simplistic way of looking at the world in it, and undermines the donors and undermines state and undermines the clients that the charity’s ultimately serve? Another thing that i believe you encourage and ah ah, nde actually seth godin does to has been on the show, and he has three things he encourages organizations that do create ship and fail and the willingness to fail. And learn. Yeah, you know, well, that’s a big issue in the nonprofit sector is we don’t want non-profits to take risk on new fund-raising ideas with donor dollars? Well, if they can’t take risks that can’t learn and they can’t grow, if they can’t grow, they can’t solve these problems, you know, we don’t we let hollywood take all kinds of risks, you know, we let hollywood place two hundred million dollar bets on movies like sex and the city seventeen or, you know, the lone ranger which flopped or john carter, which flops, and this is how the big consumer brands learned they place these big bet some of them pay off some of them don’t, and on the basis of that, you know, they evolved, we don’t let non-profit organizations do that. I don’t know of a nonprofit organization that has a research and development budget for fund-raising i don’t even know of one that has a line item for it. I mean, can you imagine if apple didn’t have ah, on rnd budget for the new products that it wants introduce? I s o you quoted somewhere saying that restraints undermine potential just sort of service something all this up? Yeah, that’s actually, that it’s actually the subtitle parent restraints on non-profit attention, mind their potential. I really didn’t want that subtitle because i can’t stand the use of the word non-profit you know the words, it apologizes for itself. It tells us what what we’re against talks about our tax status yes, it does the larger issues. And the word profit comes from the latin for progress so that the term non-profit literally means non-profit gress you know it’s it’s the no sector? No, you can’t have money to advertise. No, you can’t pay people a swell as the for-profit sector does. No, you can’t take any risks, but please solve all the world’s problems for us. You know what i can’t stand is a lot of times i’ll do an interview with a reporter and then the headline writer will will label the story damn pull out of the guy who thinks charity should act more like business that’s not at all what i’m saying, i’m saying that you know we as a culture are not for a moment. Ready to give charities the big league freedoms. We really give the business. So please stop telling them to act more like businesses. If they’re too stupid to do it in the first place, they would act more like business if you would give them the permission to the just this week. Way learned that charity navigator’s ceo ken berger who’s been on the show a few times, eyes leaving. Does does charity defense counsel have any advice for charity navigator in their search for a ceo? They say they want to a technologist. Yeah, i think ken has already left. Um, yeah, i think i think there’s a tremendous opportunity here now, you know, charity navigator was funded by donor-centric new york originally, who had a bad experience with a charity. You know, it was hale house where a lot of the money was going to places that he didn’t feel it was going. And, you know, he made a great contribution of his heart and his wealth, and he felt betrayed. And as a reaction to that, he created charity navigator. You know, essentially for all these years to make sure the charity’s weren’t spending too much money. On overhead and salaries, the intentions, i believe we’re good, but the effects have been destructive now, you know, to their credit, they signed on to this letter telling the public a year and a half ago not to ask about overhead anymore, but focus on what ah outcome the charity is having, i think there’s an opportunity here for some kind of ah, of a merger with other organizations, for charity navigator to become much more nuanced and not so numeric and not so rigid. Overall, though, i think the issue is all of these evaluative efforts, whether it’s, you know, the wonderful work that are taylor does with the better business bureau wise giving alliance charity navigator great non-profits there’s, they’re relatively small in scale, you know, they’re they’re one million two million three million dollar organizations and americans give three hundred billion with a b dollars to charity every year we need on itunes for charity nationally, you know, we need a big, robust entity operation that can evaluate every charity in america using rich narrative as well as america data, it could be updated on an annual basis and that’s going to cost hundreds of millions. Of dollars sounds like a lot, but it’s cheap up against the three hundred billion we give to charity every year. We have to make some excuse me, meaningful investment in measuring all that. And, you know, charity navigator is just a way, way, way too small a scale to be able to do that you’ll find charity defense counsel at charity defense counsel dot or ge and you’ll find dan at dan piela dot com and at dan pelota on twitter. Dan, thanks so much for sharing. Thanks, tony. Have a great easter weekend. Thank you very much. Same to you. Thank you. Bye bye. So long, tony’s, take two and your ceo board chair partnership are coming up. First opportunity collaboration. Extremely useful contacts, projects funding. It opens people that was from last. Year’s delegate alberto vasco is president of society edad e dis capacidad in saudi’s, peru. It is the single most productive week i have spent all year. That’s gretchen wallace, founder and president of global grassroots dar for haiti, rwanda, uganda and the u s opportunity collaboration is a week long conference in x top of mexico devoted to poverty reduction throughout the world. It’s coming up in october, i was there last year. I’m going again this year. If your work is it all related to poverty reduction, check it out. Opportunity, collaboration, dot net. I have a new non-profit radio knowledge, base storytelling, the best non-profit radio guests on the subject of storytelling. The video and links are at tony martignetti dot com. Are you a millennial interested in measuring social good, then evaluate for change, has your next career move they’re recruiting for their millennial non-profit data fellowship. The ideal candidate is a millennial, employed or volunteering at a non-profit and dedicated to using data to improve the social sector. The fellowship is part time and includes training, mentoring and a final capstone project. The application deadline is april thirtieth. Apply at evaluate for change, dot com. I am being honored by a non-profit that saves lives in the dominican republic, they bring water to the poorest of the poor in the d r the organization is hermandad and i’d really like non-profit radio fans to be honored with me by giving to herman dahna i’ve been supporting the charity for several years, and i would love for us all to be honored together on april twenty third video is that tony martignetti dot com and i thank you for thinking about that, considering that that is tony’s take two for friday, third of april thirteenth show of the year john fulwider is with me. He helps non-profit chief executives, he combines coaching, teaching and training toe work exclusively with high achieving ceos. I want their leadership teams and boards to row in the same direction. His latest book is better together non-profits ceos and board chairs get happy and fall in love with the mission hope the book is shorter than the title. John he’s at john fulwider dot com and on twitter he’s at john m fulwider welcome john fulwider, thanks so much, tony, its honor and pleasure to be here. Thank you. I’m glad. And you’re you’re calling, ah, from omaha, nebraska. Is that right? Lincoln, nebraska lincoln, nebraska pardon me. I gave you live. Listen, love to lincoln. Pardon me. That’s. Right? Lincoln i hope you didn’t take me too seriously when i was admonishing you about requesting live listener love. Careful, they’re not at all ok, good. Don’t take. Nobody listens to call it it’s all in good fun. Okay, your book is ah siri’s of questions, which i love, that that ceos and board chairs should be asking each other. What? What shortcomings do you see in this relationship? That you want to be a partnership? You know, i wantto start with the possibilities that you can achieve from a really healthy and successful partnership before i get to the shortcomings, if i could. The possibilities are amazing. Too high achieving, growth oriented, talented, passionate people can really support each other and accomplishing together for themselves, for the organization and for the mitch and something they wouldn’t be able to achieve a part. And so it can be a really fulfilling effort asked, spend their wanting two, maybe three years of the board chairs leadership term together, really accomplishing something that they could both feel proud of at the end of those years. Okay, um, but i’m still gonna ask my question. Don’t be an anarchist now taking over the show. What? What? What now? I got two shortcomings or what? You know what? What’s typical of the board chair ceo relationship that that you see, and when you build that strong partnership, you can avoid a number of pitfalls. One of them is just failure to develop trust and transparency in your relationship, which was really the bedrock for leading together at the start. Next up, you can sail to communicate often enough, and as a result, neither the board chair nor the chief executive gets what she or he needs in terms of information to even run an effective board meeting, much less provide some really inspiring strategic direction to the organization. And the last thing that you can do is fail to establish clear expectations of each other. So you’re sort of casting about rudderless, not really knowing who’s. Responsible for what? And that’s not a fun or indeed fulfilling a productive position for either of the leaders to be. How about that trust the how do people? In these positions, let’s, take it’s ah, new relationship either. Well, the board chair is new, or the ceo is new to the organization. How do we start to build build that trust? You know, it really just begins in conversation, tony change begins in conversation conversation with your most important partner that being your board chair, if you’re the chief executive, the chief executive, if you’re the board chair, it’s just a matter of starting off the relationship, right with some open ended kind of deep questions that let you start to develop that trust and transparency from the very start in the book associate in the workbook associated with the book, i have lists of those questions that go from sort of short to medium so long, and you can kind of customize it based on the time you have, and you have them broken down into categories and then within the categories, there are lots of different topic areas marketing and accountability, and that’s right succession planning. So i really like this question and answer that i mean, i they’re they’re all questions to stimulate conversation and conversation hopefully is going to be honest and open and that helps us get to trusting partnership. Indian. Yeah. Ok. It is a virtuous cycle. Okay. All right. Let’s, let’s, talk about some of these questions. I like them so much. Um, you don’t mind if we start with marketing, do you? Would that be okay? No. Let’s, let’s. Go right into it. Ok, so you’re the way it’s laid out is you give some perspectives, cem quotes for thinking for the people. Tto consider on the subject and then ask your partner and there’s. Lots of ask your partner questions. And, uh, you know that you ask some very basic ones around marketing. What should our message be? Who needs to hear it? Where? Where does it need to be? Can two people, though sitting in a room together, answer these? They can begin to answer them, tony. And in a way that generates questions for other people. Let me use one of your previous guests as an example of how this could work. So you have a guest one or two weeks ago, talking about your board as brand ambassadors. And there was that there was that question, as i recall about, you know, what does our organization even do in terms of category where we capacity building organization or were we making social change organization? I believe your guest said, and and that’s a question that you and your board chair i’m just going to talk from the chief executive’s perspective because those of the clients i work with you can ask your board chair well, bored share what d’you, how would you categorize our organization and then ask your board chair? How do you think your colleagues on the board would categorise the organization and that helps the board chair decide? Well, hey, maybe i need to lead a discussion on this at the next board meeting because i’m not sure and i want to find out. So starting a conversation with your board chair starts conversations that she or he has with her or his colleagues. Okay, so these are not going to be questions that we’re going to sit down in a couple of our long meetings, and we’re going to have answers to no, we’re not going to figure it out for ourselves, but we’re going to we’re going to start the conversation. We’re going to use our knowledge at my knowledge as the chief executive of the leadership teams perspective and the board chair her knowledge of her colleagues on the board, their perspectives. We’re going to use it to narrow dance on our information, gathering our question asking for our colleagues. Okay, by the way, that guessed that you were referring. Teo, your board is brand ambassadors. Two weeks ago was roger sametz, um, also with the also in one of your marketing questions looking internally, how good a job are we doing? Getting our message to our own board and staff, you want some introspection here? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the one of the challenges that that i i always here when i’m working with not-for-profits is the staff in general are pretty dissatisfied with what they perceive as the boards level of knowledge about and interest in the organization. And then what i find when that when when we really examine it, the board tends to have more knowledge and information about the organization. Dan was the staff perception and so conversations about marketing and branding and the, you know, sort of internal outside perspective on the organization can be sort of a safe and comfortable way. For people to get rid of negative assumptions they might have about their colleagues. Okay, i’m going to move to one that also i find interesting internal threats to the organiser from like you ask who is a flight risk on the board who air flight risks on our staff? This is right. This is very, very good, like risk-alternatives would call it too. Yeah, absolutely, and it’s it’s something not not every organization really has the time or bandwidth to consider, but it is pretty hard to attract high quality talent. You are not for-profit organizations for various reasons everyone’s familiar with so once we have a really talented, high achieving, competent person on board, we need to take special care to ensure that we retain that person by continuing to challenge her or him offering a clear way up in the organization and so on. That could be the downside of term limits indeed, a can on the on the board side and boy, you know, if we get into the question of term limits will get into the question of government governance structures, and this conversation will get too complicated and i will wind up in jargon. Jail well, but you’re well, i’ll put your there, i’ll put your but they’re easily so you may end up there anyway, but let’s not let’s, not let’s. Not underestimate the capacity of non-profit radio listeners. The very sophisticated audience. Ah lutely. So i think they’re up for ah, governance conversation. We may we may get there, you that’s one of the other topics that you have questions around governance and accountability, but oh, i mean, if i can, if i can address term limits for just seconds under under governance, you know, that’s one of the frustrations of building a partnership with your board chair is that it’s a short term relationship. You could be doing all this work that i recommend, and i recommend doing a lot of work on this relationship only to have that person term out of the board chair seat one year from now, maybe two years, probably at the most three years. So term limits are a big deal in this context. I’m going hyre but as we’re identifying let’s say, you know ah well, who’s, the who’s a flight risk on the board we should be then the next question is going to be, well, what’s our succession plan for for that well, flight risk or, you know, whether it’s, term limits or whatever, for whatever reason president is going to be the position. So how do you how would you feel about having a neg zsystems chair and the planned successor? Whoever that is, the vice chair, whatever the the chair to be named in this conversation, could we do this is a three way? Sure, we definitely could do that. The first thing you need to do is have the two way conversation where you’re building the solid partnership with your board chair and honestly, if that’s all the two of you have the time, space and bandwidth to do. Just stop there, because you’ll be ahead of many other people who are in a leadership partnership. But if you can, by all means bring device chair, they’re elected the president elect that sort of thing into your discussions on dh and talk about how we can keep the strong leadership goodness culture flowing, but then also talk about how we need to customize the relationship to the prospective, the incoming board chair, because the nature of building trust with that person setting expectations, clarifying rolls, and the style and manner and frequency of communication, it’s all going to be different for that new person. Yes, customized, not not cookie cutter. And, yes, not one size fits. All right, right. That’s, that’s, offensive to the incoming person. Then, you know, right, alright, loss of trust there. We just have a minute or so before a break. Um, you would also like us under internal threats, to be looking at which of our programs is below par or failing. Sure and and that’s a great conversation. Tio have with your board chair, because you’re bored. Chair isn’t in the organization twenty six hours a day. Thinking about it, like like you are, doesn’t have probably that attachment to each of the programs, and so can offer and unbiased mohr outside view at what is working and what is not in the organization and honestly, can help you strategize about how to do the influence campaign necessary on your board, and indeed, with your staff, and maybe even your thunders, to eliminate a failing program in order to allocate resources to something that is creating social change. Let’s, take a break. When we come back, john and i are going toe. Keep covering some questions that the ceo on board chair should be asking each other. Hang in there. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth godin, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Got lots more live listener love tons of live listeners today serbia is with us life listen, to live out there. Mccarty in the philippines, mexico city, mexico. I’ll be flying there in october on my way to stop a for opportunity collaboration. Go through mexico city, reservoir, australia, bogota, colombia, seoul, south korea several in seoul not surprised. Always appreciative. Thank you very much on your haserot in japan, kawasaki and tokyo konichiwa also aspired. Germany good dog, it’s. Amazing let’s, bring it back to the u s newport news, virginia, omaha, nebraska. John omaha, eyes on and multiple in lincoln, nebraska so you’ve got some family there. I don’t know some people love you in lincoln, nebraska and pflueger ville, texas i love pflueger ville! Welcome live listener love to each person listening live. John, do you mind if we, since we’ve sort of headed in this direction to look what some succession planning for the for the board chair and for the ceo, we’ll do it, we’ll be okay. Your questions for for those two are pretty similar, so i would just take him in a bunch recognizing that nobody’s going to be in the position forever. What? What skills and qualities do we need in our next chair and our next ceo? Right? The reason i include the succession planning of questions in the book is because it really gives away toe have that conversation about succession planning, which is so sort of inconvenient and awkward and about your own mortality on a regular basis. What i recommend is that people go through this list of twenty four strategic discussion topics with their board chair one at a time really go through the entire list um, twice a year, so they’re having forty eight weeks of conversations taking four weeks off, but this just brings it up automatic so that it’s not awkward. Now that’s a that’s. A lot of time to ask. Ah, volunteer to spend is that you have you have clients that are doing that. This is realistic. Ideo i do have clients who were doing that. Okay? And what do we say to the board chair? Who may be reluctant to spend that kind of time? We’re talking about at least an hour a week, right? Sure. I mean, it can go faster or slower than that. What we say to the person is, i value your counsel and your input. And i know you joined the board because you felt like you have something to say. Um, you, you cared about the mission, and you felt like you had something to say about advancing the mission and getting mohr done for the social change cause that wee boat care about. And so i simply want teo give you the opportunity to be strategic about that as often as possible. And i promise that in our conversations, we’ll try to keep it at the high strategic, interesting and compelling level and away from boring taxable day today as much as possible. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We want to encourage the board to be looking at bigger pictures and not what the office supply budget line should be. How about let’s? Look, a little external. Now we’ve been doing a lot of introspection. You have a section on meeting community needs, right? I mean, this, the basic. What does our community need from us on dh? How are we doing in providing it? Yeah, this is this is really a question i like to use, teo, inform strategic planning processes. And so what i what i see this conversation as tony is ah, logical and easy progression from, uh, tapping the strategic thinking capabilities of the chief executive and the board chair and then moving that discussion to the executive committee or the officers of the board and then moving it from there to further board members in, say, a strategic thinking slot on the board agenda and then moving that all the way to the strategic planning retreat. So strategic conversations are happening constantly at all levels of the organization, but starting at the top it’s kind of like one of those chocolate fountains that you see at wedding receptions and so forth where it’s this yummy, gooey, rich chocolate and it bubbles out of the top, and it flows down to the next layer and the next layer, and then it bubbles back-up from the top strategic thinking happens in organizations the same way, okay, we don’t have to explain it to the person or maybe the people we’re going to have these conversations with as a strategic planning process, dewey. Because that has a lot of it’s our baggage to it that maybe people aren’t ready to take on or, you know, we have, you know, you’re completely you’re completely right, tony, i’m i’m working on a year long strategic planning process with a client right now, and as i’m doing the strategic, the preplanning interviews with the leadership team, they’re being kind enough to tell me, hey, some of us have some trepidation about that. The board says that has as well, you do want it to be clear at the board chair level, though, that you have a shared responsibility to, no matter how you phrase it or how you present it. Teo, get strategic thinking happening throughout the organization consistently. It can’t be something you do just once a year, okay? Or once every three years or something, and then it ends up on the show, which would be even worse. Okay, yes, these are that’s true and seen it this way. But these are very good strategic planning questions, even if you don’t want to call it a strategic planning process there. Very good strategic questions, i guess is what i mean. Um, you have a section on external threats. And we just have about a minute left. But so let’s. Just throw out that we should be looking at who’s, doing a better job than we are at providing program. Right. And that’s a that’s. A question that your your board chair is especially well suited to help answer she or he may have the answer himself just by being virtue of being a philanthropist in the community, caring about the issue, seeing what others have to say or your board chair main not know the answer himself but can go to other, uh, you know, really connected on that particular issue. People on the board who then can offer some information that again comes from somebody who has that outside. Unbiased, not thinking about the organization, you know, more than twenty four hours a day, like twenty six hours a day, like the chief executive is all right, lots of strategic and thought provoking questions. In the book, you’ll find it at john fulwider dot com. And john is on twitter at john m fulwider. Thank you very much for sharing john there’s. An even better link, tony at better together leadership. Dot com it’s, easier to spell. All right. Thank you very much, john. Thanks, tony. Next week. Do you know the agitator at agitator dot net? He’s. Roger craver and he’s with me. Next week, we’re going. To talk about donorsearch retention. If you missed any part of today’s show finding on tony martignetti dot com, where in the world else would you go, i think you have to be, ah, be over twenty to get that, i believe maybe, or maybe not. Maybe it wasn’t that long ago, but i hope you get it. If you’re over twenty opportunity, collaboration with world convenes for poverty reduction, it’ll ruin you for every other conference opportunity. Collaboration. Dot net. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer show social media’s, by susan chavez, susan chavez, dot com and our music is by scott stein. He was me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Yeah. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. I took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe. Add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno, two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five.