Tag Archives: boards

Nonprofit Radio for March 22, 2021: Build Your Best Better Board

My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Build Your Best Better Board
Gene Takagi returns! He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately-sized, well-trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations law group.

 

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[00:01:39.64] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast, and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with dyskinesia if you gave me a taste of the idea that you missed this week’s show. Build your best Better board. Jeanne Takagi returns. He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately sized, well trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group tony State, too. Podcast pleasantries and planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome back, as it always is. Jeanne Takagi. These are legal contributor, managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the enormously popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com, and he’s at G Attack Gene, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:41.84] spk_1:
Thanks, Tony. It’s great to be back. How are you?

[00:01:59.94] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you. It’s always a pleasure. Many, many years. It’s a pleasure. Each time you’re you are teaching us what’s important, what we need to keep centered. What’s, uh where are ships Should all be facing in the same direction. So what direction is that? You keep us. Keep us on the straight path. I appreciate it. I know our listeners due to thank you.

[00:02:06.34] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony.

[00:02:23.84] spk_0:
Let’s get started with your building. Your best. Better board. We’re not We’re not gonna We’re not going to settle on nonprofit radio for your lackluster better board. We want your best, Better board. And I think the place to start is with board roles. So what are we expecting our board members to do?

[00:02:52.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I love this conversation, tony. It’s actually one of my favorites. And yeah, it was probably Gosh, it was early on, I think when we first talked a little bit about boards getting sort of distracted from doing the financial oversight and forgetting to do some of the other things that boards are supposed to do. Um, and, you know, part of what we talked about could have been, like 78 years ago was like, Hey, somebody should be over overseeing. You know, whether the program’s doing Are they having an impact or not? Are they really furthering your mission in the way that you want them to?

[00:03:11.94] spk_0:
You know, I have to remind you you and I did a mock board meeting one time, and either you threw me off the border. I walked out. I forget

[00:03:15.22] spk_1:
which

[00:03:30.04] spk_0:
back in the old studio was many years ago. I don’t know what we’re talking about. Something board related, obviously. But, uh, yeah, either I got booted off or I walked out and quit. I forget, uh, we’re trying to avoid that. We’re trying to avoid that in our best better board,

[00:03:32.54] spk_1:
but we’re definitely going to try to approach any of these things with extreme tact

[00:03:37.84] spk_0:
I lack, which I often lack. I probably walked out. I probably quit or something.

[00:06:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, just just overall, the same financial diligence is great. So take a look at the financials, make sure you understand them and make sure that the organization is able to pay off its debts that they become do that you’re not sort of bleeding money and just managing your financial assets. But non profits exist more than to produce a financial bottom line, of course. So you know in the for profit world boards and probably got a different duty, maybe a little bit more. I mean, everybody has to act in the best interests of the corporation, right? That’s a fiduciary duty. But what is the best interests of the corporation for for profit? Oftentimes it’s associated, at least in large part the benefit of its owners or shareholders. But in the non profit, there are no shareholders or owners, right? It’s for the benefit of advancing the mission. And that’s what the board has got to remember, that it’s got to be purpose driven. It’s got to be, um, acting in furtherance of the mission ahead of everything else. Um, and the one caveat I’ll add to that which we may have talked a little bit about before, as well is you’ve got to add values to that statement, so their values probably baked into your mission statement but also baked into the organizational culture. So if our mission is to feed people who are experiencing homelessness or a lack of income, resources or we’re not just going to throw food out in a trough, right? You know that might be the best way or the most effective way to get as many people fed as possible. But that would be completely inconsistent with anybody’s values. Or so values and mission sort of go hand in hand, and focusing on that is really important. So not just financial oversight, the programmatic oversight the role of the board has got to look forward to. You’ve got to set the path with those values and mission for the organization’s future, not just looking behind you, but looking ahead, um, and so guiding the organization with those thoughts, acting as ambassadors, getting the feedback from the environment about what challenges and what opportunities may be out there. Those are all things the board can bring back to the executive and to the staff, sort of to help them do their best.

[00:06:44.34] spk_0:
And these are all very, uh, lofty. And and, um, I don’t want to say pedagogical, because that makes it sound like they’re not grounded, but But these are these are very we haven’t even talked about. You know how many board meetings you have to attend in a year. And how many subcommittees you have to serve on? You know, we haven’t gotten to that yet. You know, we’re talking about the the ambition, but it has to be centered. It’s It’s like you said. It’s the mission and values of the organization. I mean, if someone doesn’t respect those, then you’re not gonna get your best better board. You’re going to get a crappy person. Maybe it gives a lot of money, but ultimately, the ships are not sailing in the same direction with all the board members on each one.

[00:06:50.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And I loved your introduction about having the best Better board. Not this lackluster,

[00:07:13.34] spk_0:
lackluster better. But yeah, that’s for other podcasts, not on the radio. We don’t tolerate lackluster mediocrity, mediocre better boards that we want to. We want the best Better board. All right, so So it really it really does start with loft and ambition around around Mission and values.

[00:07:15.74] spk_1:
I definitely think so.

[00:07:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So now let’s drill down. I mean, in terms of what we’re expecting the board to do, you have to be up front with what these expectations are and that that happens in recruitment, right? Not not in their first board meeting. You should be explaining the expectations while you’re talking to somebody about joining the board. Not after they have joined.

[00:07:41.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. And too often. I see tony and I don’t know if you’ve experienced this as well, but somebody tries to recruit you onto the board and they go, It’s really not that much work, you know. It’s easy. Um, well, that’s going to get you a lackluster and maybe not even a better board. So,

[00:07:59.57] spk_0:
um,

[00:08:45.54] spk_1:
yeah, so it really is about setting expectations of Hey, you really believe in this mission and you have the same values that we’re trying to move forward with. Let’s do something great with this organization. Let’s make a great impact here. This is These are the kind of things that we expect of our board. This is how often we meet. You know, this is, um, what we expected each board member in terms of attendance and in terms of maybe making a meaningful contribution. I don’t like set amounts because that can hurt diversity and inclusive inclusion. But a meaningful donation to to the organization it could be in time if not in money or in other ways. But the expectations, I think, need to be spelled out in front before you actually invite somebody onto the board.

[00:09:00.24] spk_0:
And when you’re spelling them out, I mean, do you Do you like to see a writing a document with, you know, Please take this home with you and consider consider, as we’re having our conversations about about you being on the board, consider all these things like you give them a document to read or just a conversation.

[00:09:24.64] spk_1:
I think both tony. So I I you know, it may depend upon the organization how formal they get, but if you do actually have a recruiting sort of policy or procedure or recruiting committee in place, I like to put some things down in writing just to make sure that we’re all on the same page and letting people know what the organization’s expectations are and how often boards meet. And if there is a meaningful contribution, expectations all of those things up front. So if somebody is not interested, they can right away say, you know, this isn’t for me, you know, I like what you do. But it’s not for me and another person who might say I’m really interested in doing all of those things. You know? I’d love to be a part of your board,

[00:10:11.94] spk_0:
All right? So be upfront about expectations. There’s no point in in concealing the work and the requirements, only to have the person blindsided when it comes time around, when it comes time for each board member to make their annual contribution. And and And they didn’t know that it was supposed to be a meaningful gift or they didn’t know there was a board giving requirement of any sort. You know, when it comes time to assign committee. So I didn’t know I was gonna be on a committee. I thought I just came to board member board meetings four times a year. Now we have committee meetings to I didn’t know about that, and then you set yourself up for a disaster.

[00:10:46.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And if you if you start to um, the danger of it is is you don’t want to just sort of create this list of these are the things you have to do for the organization to run. You’ve got to always again relate it back to the mission and values. This is why we love to contribute as board members to the organization. Because this is what impact we can have. And this is the direction we see ourselves going to be able to have even greater impact. So you just keep reinforcing that message to get your best board members.

[00:10:55.74] spk_0:
You let me ask you a question. Are you Are you, uh Are you by any chance, playing with a pen or or anything?

[00:11:02.14] spk_1:
I am not rocking back and forth on my chair.

[00:11:06.44] spk_0:
And I know there’s, like, a little clicking, and I’m not. I know you’re not. I know you’re not typing like you’re not writing a document while we’re talking

[00:11:13.94] spk_1:
about you’re

[00:11:14.15] spk_0:
writing a client agreement or something.

[00:11:16.51] spk_1:
Typical things you expect from a lawyer, right?

[00:11:32.14] spk_0:
Yeah. You double bill your time, right. You get $800 an hour billed to clients at $400 an hour. You’re sitting in one’s office. You’re doing the work for the other. No. Okay. No, you’re not. Your hands are free, okay? I don’t know. There’s, like, little the mice are clicking or

[00:11:33.26] spk_1:
something. Maybe I’m rocking in my chair. I will try to hold back my enthusiasm.

[00:12:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, Alright. It doesn’t It doesn’t sound like that. Okay, Well, listeners, I can’t identify the sound of the but I’ll call it out because I’m not going to keep it quiet because we all hear it, so we’ll talk about it. Well, I don’t know what it is. This little tapping, clicking my mouse sound. Let’s talk about diversity. This should be a value. You and I have talked about this. We’ve had heartfelt conversations a couple of times about white male power and using that power and sharing power. And so let’s talk about diversity as a value for your board. How does that play into what we’re talking about? Your your best. Better board?

[00:14:50.74] spk_1:
Sure. You know, for the organizations who have responded to sort of this increasing understanding and awareness that diversity is an issue in various aspects, not just on board composition, but in the way our infrastructure as a country and even as the world is designed where, um, people who are in positions of power, no matter what race or gender or whatever, whatever they are tend to create systems that keep themselves in power. And so diversity has this great benefit of saying, Let’s take other lenses and look at what we’re doing. And look at the world that we’re in, um, for nonprofits, especially the world that’s directly impacting what we’re trying to do out there for. The people were trying to do it for what is impacting it, who is being affected the most, Um, and if that’s important to to organizations and their leaders, then I think they’ve really got to embrace diversity, not just by saying it, but by actually putting action steps into what they’re doing, Whether that’s going to be building it into true board diversity with inclusion. So not making people feel, you know, like they’re they’re just a simple tokens of taking a better picture but really being able to contribute to the power of the organization to address things that other people may not have seen. So, you know, I may identify with people who I relate to, but I may have very little understanding your perspective of people who are different from me who congregate in different circles who have different ideas. Um, and we have to think about all of those things, especially for serving a classic. Beneficiaries that are board members may be far away from. So if we have a board that’s more privileged, and we are helping a lot of people who don’t have some of the privileges that the board may have in terms of representation, how will we ever see the world through their lens? How will they understand? How will we understand where services are doing from their eyes? So trying to to get that diversity in an inclusive matter for purposes of increasing equity, I think, is a value that non profit should strive for.

[00:16:11.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break turn to communications relationships. They’ve got the relationships with the media outlets so that when you need to be in the news, when there’s a news item that you need to comment on, your voice needs to be heard. Turn to has the relationships to get you heard. It’s not cold calling. They have the existing relationships. They give it like gifts. You get a lot of gifts from cold calls. Do you get any gifts from cold calls? You get your best gifts from cold calls. If you’re doing cold call fundraising. No, you don’t. Of course, it’s the same with media. The relationships are in place. So when you want to be heard, turn to picks up the phones and leverages those relationships That way you’re gonna get heard. Turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Now back to build your best. Better board. Diversity has to be centered. Um, but And you wanted to go deeper than just like the board should reflect the community or the board should reflect those we serve. You mean you’re looking for something deeper than just reflecting an environment?

[00:18:17.04] spk_1:
I think so. So it is reflecting different perspectives as well. So I think traditionally, we thought of it as a skills based diversity. Like we need a lawyer. We need an accountant. We need a financial manager, a fundraiser on our board. And then we became all a little bit more woke and we said, Hey, we need racial diversity in our organizations. Um, but we didn’t say why that was or many of us didn’t say, why do we need racial diversity in our organizations? Is it simply to make it look like we embrace diversity and we take the better picture? Or is it because we want a true understanding from somebody else with a different lens and perspective? Who could tell us if there are gaps in our services for their communities? If there are gaps in the laws that are creating inequities that affect our mission as well? So the more we get these other perspectives, whether it be from a racial diversity angle from a disability angle, which I think is increasingly a really important thing to look at as we are facing an older population where disabilities are highly, you know, they make up a great percentage of our organizations and they’re kind of sort of the the unseen Group in many ways, um, we’re just getting started on addressing some of those concerns. But, um, the way we serve people can really miss many of those that are impacted, that that would be true beneficiaries of our service if they could access our services. But if we don’t make it accessible to them, then we just missed them, and that may be completely unintentional. But if we don’t have people who can identify and spot those things because they live it, um that would be, you know, short a shortfall in leadership. And that’s where we have to sort of address, Um, taking a look with a much broader lens and not just in our boards, but in our programming, in our staffing and just getting more awareness and bringing more lenses to what we’re doing.

[00:18:55.54] spk_0:
Let’s talk about bringing someone new to the board because we’re gonna be recruiting our new board members that are going to be part of our best better board. So now if we’ve recruited the right people, we need to socialize them to the organization. It’s more than I think. It’s more than just formal training. You know, the the organization has a culture. The board has a culture. Hopefully, they’re healthy. Let’s assume, but let’s take that. Let’s assume that these are healthy. Culture is not. Not. Cultures were trying to reverse, uh, you know, like intolerance or something. But healthy cultures. There’s a formal training and an informal training.

[00:20:26.74] spk_1:
I absolutely agree with you, so you know orientations can start even at recruitment. But once you decide that you want to elect somebody onto the board and they want to be part of the board and you elect them. I think it really is important now for them to be ingrained in what the organizations and the board culture is, what the priorities are getting a better sense of what the programs are. I’ll confess. I’ve been part of boards where I may not have a very good understanding of some of the programs. I get lost in some of, you know, again, the financial reports and maybe one program officer. You know, a year shows up and describes their program well, that that’s not really giving me a full sense of what the organization is doing. So more of that, um, is really going to be beneficial. Um, it will also help in sort of preventing there from being this wall between who the board is and who the staff and who are. The people that are actually implementing the program are other than the executive director, so boards often just meet with the executive director. But in an orientation or training, I think more deeply getting ingrained and that’s a board staff retreat. Joint retreats are good things. Board buddies and maybe a board staff buddy system could also

[00:20:31.34] spk_0:
is that like is that a mentoring board board buddy?

[00:20:53.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it could be partly mentoring, but I think the relationship really extends both ways, right? We can get more information from an outsider’s perspective to help the organization, and when they have fresh eyes, they may see different things. So instead of just saying, I know more than you, I’m going to mentor you. We can be buddies and learn from each other.

[00:20:56.64] spk_0:
And then you mentioned staff buddies, too.

[00:21:21.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I I don’t think it’s a bad idea for boards again to get more involved with their staff. We don’t want to micromanage. So there is this fine line there. But just getting an understanding from the staff about what they see in the organization, I think is important other than the executive director who may be the one who attends every board meeting. But if we just see one other staff member once a year, that really isn’t giving a sense of what is going on and what the organizational culture is. We might know what the board culture is, but do we really know what the organizational culture is?

[00:22:10.34] spk_0:
If it’s a staff buddy, it’s not only micromanagement, from the board member down. But then you also have to be conscious of the staff member trying to leverage a relationship with a board member like trying to do something or avoid doing something that the CEO may want or their vice president that they report to may want or something. You know, uh, that just it has to be managed. That’s all. Just You have to be conscious of the possibility of somebody exploiting and a relationship with the board members saying things that are inappropriate. The board members.

[00:22:52.14] spk_1:
I think this has to be designed with a consultant who really understands the area because you’re absolutely right. Tony. Yeah, if you if you aren’t careful, what you’re doing is you’re creating people going behind the executives back to make complaints to board members. And that’s not what the purpose is. So it might be controlled by saying, Hey, the board staff buddy thing is a meeting of the board and staff person in a joint group in a group where we’re all meeting in different corners of the room and just talking about certain specific topics so it can be regulated a little bit more carefully with rules of the game spelled out in advance. This is not a place to complain about employment issues. This is Yeah.

[00:23:04.34] spk_0:
Um, what do you like for board terms? What do you have? Advice? Two years? Three years? Should How many? How many years or how many terms should board members be allowed to continue on?

[00:24:00.64] spk_1:
Um, there’s there’s not, you know, one specific answer. I hate the lawyers. Answer. It depends. It does. But let me just say in a large number of cases, I like the 2 to 3 year term, both balancing a little bit of need for continuity and giving a fair expectation to a new board member of that. This is not just going to be a one year thing and you’re out. Um uh, and I like to have board terms to make sure that the board doesn’t become very insular and its thinking and in its diversity by keeping board members on perpetually until they’re ready to resign. It also makes it hard to ever remove a board member if people think that they have a right to serve on the board forever. So I kind of like board members not to be on board for, like maybe five or six years. Um, having said that, there are times

[00:24:02.67] spk_0:
when to not be on for five or six years

[00:24:04.99] spk_1:
to beyond that

[00:24:08.44] spk_0:
beyond. For five, like maybe two, 23 year terms, two year terms or 23 year terms of the most

[00:24:41.64] spk_1:
something. Something like that. Now, a lot of exceptions to that, if you have, if you had trouble building aboard and you have some great champions on the board. But those have been kind of the long term people who really know and really invested, and everybody else has been sort of lackluster. Um, I don’t think you should kick off your strongest board members, so you have to really think about that before you implement it. It is sort of an idealistic goal to have those term limits and, um, 2 to 3 year terms. But in other situations, I would say one size doesn’t fit. Also, take a look at your own board composition first before you make those type of decisions.

[00:25:19.94] spk_0:
What about in terms of socializing to the board, having social events for the board? Occasionally, Maybe it’s a dinner after a meeting. Um, I wouldn’t have cocktails before a meeting. But you could have cocktails after a meeting, you know, trying to get the board to get to know the members, to know each other outside the board. What else do you do? You go skiing, you go snowmobiling. You know, you’re a Fisher fisherman. You know things like that.

[00:25:26.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea. I’ve even had cocktails before boarding. So,

[00:25:31.63] spk_0:
uh, all right,

[00:26:10.84] spk_1:
but yes, um, for board members to trust each other and to be open to each other’s ideas and respect each other, the more you know each other, the more likelihood that that’s all going to happen and that you’re going to actually build the board culture rather than have people who don’t know each other who are trying to get out of the meeting, to watch a basketball game or be home with their family and sort of sit and say, This is my duty. For the next hour, I’m going to sit here, take notes and listen and try to do my job. But think of it just as a job. It’s going to be less productive. I think that if you come in and say I love these people that are kind of get to work with. And we’re trying to build something great so we can make change in the world or in our community. And so I really like coming to these events and getting a sense of it. Sometimes there’s, you know, those ice breaker things you know, for five or 10 minutes in front of a meeting that can be hit or miss and oftentimes a

[00:26:33.10] spk_0:
miss. How many people can you talk to in 10 minutes?

[00:26:35.46] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s another reason why you shouldn’t have too big a board as well. If you have 50 people at a to our board meeting, how many people are going to get to

[00:26:51.84] spk_0:
talk, right? That’s yeah, So I know that I know your answer is there’s no hard and fast answer for this one. But since you just let into it, share your advice on on board size,

[00:28:13.54] spk_1:
Yes. So my maybe not so helpful advice is not too few and not too many, um, that if we dive down a little deeper, you need, um or you’d like to have as many board members as you can utilize to help you govern the organization and help the organization and the board do its best job. So if that number is eight, or if that number is 15, that’s, you know that may be your ideal board size. It’s more important to me to get the right people on the board, um, rather than the right number. But if you can, if you have less than five and you’re a mature organization, I start to worry that you’re gonna lack that diversity in many different perspectives. Um, and if you’ve got more than 20 I have a feeling that a lot of board members feel like their contributions are not being heard because they don’t have an opportunity to sort of verbally contribute, especially if there are few dominant board members at meetings and in a two hour meeting, even 20 people are going to have a chance to say how much about how many issues it will be very few. So to really think about that, and you want to encourage board members to attend every board meeting, not just sort of half of the board meetings or think that they can take a free ride because you’ve got enough people to do that job. I’ll just help on a committee. You don’t want them to feel that way. You want them to feel very invested.

[00:28:31.24] spk_0:
So you feel like an expectation is you attend every board meeting either physically or virtually.

[00:28:33.84] spk_1:
I think that’s the expectation. And if people are missing, you know, one out of 41 out of five meetings, one out of 10 meetings, you know that might be acceptable for special circumstances. But you don’t want it to be a habit. I think you want to aspire to have everybody attend all of them.

[00:28:58.64] spk_0:
Okay, Um, what do you What do you feel like talking about board wise that we haven’t talked about yet? Let’s not go to how to get rid of a board member yet that’s that’s toward the end. What’s your what’s on your mind around your best? Better board?

[00:30:44.94] spk_1:
Well, we talked about kind of the expectations of what the board should do, but they think each director’s gotta ask that question of themselves as well. And maybe that’s part of the board. Recruitment and orientation package is kind of a list of however many 10 things that board members should aspire to do themselves, uh, to be part of this board and attend all meetings. We talked about that, but what else should they do? They should review financials regularly, so if they’re getting a financial before each meeting, they should review them. They should know that they are expected to ask questions that might be at the board meeting or that might be before the board meeting. But if they’re getting information aboard package in advance, which they should get, um, about the matters that are going to be up for discussion at the board, they should know that they should review it first. And if they have any questions, they should share it with the group. Um, and that doesn’t happen enough, in my opinion, that there are these questions and everybody saves it for the board meeting, and then they run out of time to discuss all the issues that they want to. So just having it kind of on an email sort of mass email, the board package comes out on email, and people can ask questions about it so that everybody gets an advanced preview of what some of the issues are before you go into that board meeting and then start to discuss things a little bit more detail. Some of those things might need a little research to be answered to. The executive might have to talk to an accountant or a lawyer or someone else and say, Let’s find out what the answer is and you know that does away with that issue even before the meeting, if you can share that information. So that’s another thing to just think about.

[00:31:35.04] spk_0:
What about managing the board? Uh, some. Some larger organizations have a board liaison where that’s probably not most of our listeners with someone who’s devoted to the board. I think that’s more like university style, big university style. But there doesn’t have to be a lot of staff support for the board. I mean, not only the you mentioned getting the board packages to them at least a week. I’d say in advance, maybe a week or 10 days in advance, something like that. But it goes beyond that. Board members have questions. Have these questions that you’re suggesting they ask in advance of meetings? Um, committee work has to be supported. How do we How do we make sure that we’re giving the board members the support that they need.

[00:33:00.24] spk_1:
Yeah, and it’s a great balance. Is it? Well, it’s a great question, but it is a tough one to answer because of the balance that you have to think of. You want the board to be informed so that they can be of help to the organization. But you don’t want the board to put on so many demands upon the staff that they’re really hurting the staff’s ability to do the work of the organization, the programmatic work that’s needed. So there is a little bit of balance there. I know many staff members and executives hate kind of preparing the board for the board meeting because it may take so much work. Sometimes it’s because they’re trying to justify what they are doing to the board, because the board may come in with a little bit of a negative skew about, you know, prove to us that you’re doing good work of some kind. That may be the perception that the staff is getting. I don’t think any boards are overtly saying that, but I feel that staff can come into it a little bit defensively in preparation of board materials rather than this is an ally of ours. This should be the strongest ally that we have this board group. Let’s give them information and questions for them so that they can help us do our job better. Um, and that takes time. But how many staff are involved with the executive? Certainly is meeting with them. That probably goes without saying if there is a financial person there other than the executive, that person should probably have frequent contact.

[00:35:45.54] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take to the podcast. Pleasantries. They gotta go out. That’s what we start with. Plan giving accelerator that’s coming. The podcast. Pleasantries. Uh, I’m enjoying the nostalgia of sending these again. I’ve missed it. I guess I I ignored it for a while. My my mistake. I’m sorry about that. Pleasantries to you, our podcast listener. Well, you individually. But there’s more than just one of you out there. There’s over 13,000 of you out there. So, to the podcast, listeners pleasantries. You know, I’m grateful. I am. I’m glad you’re with us. I’m glad you’re learning that non profit radio helps you helps your organization open conversations, take action steps, open discussions with the board. Your CEO, your vice president, Whoever it is, you bring stuff too. I’m glad it helps you do all that. And I hope there’s the action steps to I’m sure there are. There is. I’m sure there are the action steps. I’m sure there are. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for being with me. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Each of you plan giving accelerator that is the online membership community that I created to help you get your plan giving program started and growing. It’s a membership that you join for a year, and I teach you month by month lesson by lesson, Step by step. Everything you need to get your planned giving program started and growing. If you’re not doing planned giving and you would like to be, is it on your to do list? Have you, like so many folks? Say to me, Had this on your mind for a couple of years. You can get it done. You can get it started to get the initial thing started, and that’s done and then the program continues. I mean, the program doesn’t finish after a year. You continue your playing giving program indefinitely, of course, but you’ll get plan giving off your to do list. You get the going done. Your started 2021. The next class starts April 1st, all the info on how to pick my brain and have me teach you planned giving starting up step by step. Is that planned? Giving accelerator dot com. Okay, that is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for build your best better board with Jean Takagi.

[00:36:41.93] spk_1:
I didn’t mean to downplay the role of somebody from programming coming in speaking to the board once in a while, I think I wanted to say that that was insufficient for the board to know what’s going on programmatically. But having people come in a little bit more regularly, or at least providing materials to the board more regularly about the program’s impact, you know, and that could be through stories as well. I’m kind of like in fundraising make the board engaged with what the organization is doing programmatically and invested in doing more to help the organization do better with its programs, either serve more people are doing in a better way. You want to create that connection so that the board rallies around you and actually helps you rather than just again just providing oversight and saying We want to make sure everything is lawful. Give us all this information to make, you know, make sure that we can do that. You want to do get more from your board.

[00:37:26.53] spk_0:
I like the idea of regular presentations at board meetings from from program staff. Maybe the 1st 15 minutes of a board meeting every time is from some different employee. Maybe maybe it’s not a unique pro, maybe not different programs every time. But I like the idea of devoting some board time each each meeting to to programs to what our work is, but but not being acquainted by the CEO. But having someone who’s on the ground doing the work answering, I think that would be a real fertile ground for questions to from the board and provides ongoing training.

[00:37:28.53] spk_1:
I think so, too, and maybe even somebody who is a beneficiary of the services

[00:37:32.89] spk_0:
beneficiary to yes

[00:37:51.23] spk_1:
to say Hey, you know you get a chance to speak to the board to because we want to know what you feel about our programs and our organization and how you’ve been treated. So, um, I think those things are good, and I I again think, tony, that will just energize aboard to want to do more if they feel more connected to what the organization is actually doing and not just reading about it and listening to the executive tell them about it.

[00:38:15.32] spk_0:
What about that important CEO board chair relationship that should be very collegial? It should be supportive. What what’s your advice around for? The CEO is probably mostly CEOs listening, although we do have board members listening. But probably we have more CEOs than we do board chairs. So what’s your advice there for them? Although

[00:39:07.82] spk_1:
I’ll say that probably a fair number of CEOs have actually acted in the capacity of a board chair as well and other organizations, so they may understand some of the roles from both sides. I think my advice is what you have just said, as well as to have this collegial relationship and develop one where there’s one of trust where the CEO is not afraid to go to the board and say, I’ve got some bad news. Um, I’m looking for some guidance on this. If the CEO is always about, um, my pay or my job security can be affected by telling bad news to the board chair. So I’m going to try to, uh,

[00:39:09.52] spk_0:
show hide it, make it sound, not as bad as it is not. Be completely honest, etcetera.

[00:39:26.32] spk_1:
Yeah, I think of what you know. For profit, boards of directors may say to their shareholders in public companies, Right, like you want to pose the best view of that organization as possible. I don’t think that’s a healthy relationship for nonprofit board to have its executive,

[00:39:37.42] spk_0:
and and that should be frequent communication to I mean, shouldn’t shouldn’t the CEO feel comfortable picking up the phone and seeking the advice of the board chair?

[00:40:20.31] spk_1:
I think so. And if it’s not the board chair, I I think it’s okay at times. So your board culture is going to have to allow for this, but for them to pick up the phone and talk to another board member, So I’m when I serve on the board. I’m sometimes the only lawyer on the board. I want the CEO to be able to talk to me. I’m not going to be their legal counsel, But I might have a point of view. Or I might spot an issue if they feel like, Hey, is this something we need to talk to our lawyer about? Maybe our board chair wouldn’t be able to answer that question. But maybe I would as a board member. So, yeah, I like the CEO of being able to reach out to multiple board members for for different issues. Yeah,

[00:40:48.21] spk_0:
all right. Should we should we talk about terminating board members the topic before before their time is, Do so Let’s say, you know, a three year term and they’ve been on for a year, and they’re obstreperous, lackluster, unkind. They don’t belong. Let’s just for whatever reason, they don’t belong.

[00:43:09.10] spk_1:
Sure. What do we do? Yeah, it’s a real tough one, right. So, um, sometimes you have to look at it holistically. So oftentimes I get a call and that situation will arise. But it will turn out that that board members also the biggest donor to the organization right now you’ve got to think a little more diplomatically and strategically about how to do this. Um um So again, not one size fits all But one method that some organizations have used has been to say, Let’s talk with this board member and try to find the best role for them in the organization and see if we can move them off the board but into this other role, whether it be advisory, um, or whether it be in an, uh in an honorary position for being, you know, uh, something emeritus. So give them a fancy title. Ask them to show up at fundraising events, um uh, or to to speak to two foundations when you go out with them to do a pitch, maybe that’s where their strength is. And maybe there’s enough there of their passion for the mission and for the organization and what it does. While they don’t have passion for doing the work of a director in a strategic and diplomatic way, they may still have passion for the mission of the organization. And let’s try to take advantage of that, um, and use it in a way where nobody will use sort of the Asian mentality of nobody loses face right, like so everybody gets to keep their dignity and look good. But let’s try to take advantage of not having that person be disruptive on the board anymore. And if that person isn’t giving you much of a contribution in any way, then once in a while removal is an unpleasant but sometimes necessary option. And boards may have to decide that again. Uh, they’re going to ask somebody where they’re actually going to vote to tell somebody, um, that their services as a director are no longer needed, Um, but that has to also be done diplomatically. You have to be careful of alleging reasons for doing that because that could get you involved in a defamation lawsuit from that person if they’re upset with it and litigious so carefully.

[00:43:20.20] spk_0:
So this should be something that’s in the bylaws, then removal of a board member. Yeah, you need to have a documented process.

[00:44:17.09] spk_1:
I think that’s right, tony. A lot of, um, boards have eliminated that from the bylaws because you see that as a negative. But then they would default to the code, right, and they’re not going to usually look up what the code says about removal. It has to be done in a certain way, and in some cases it can get a little bit complicated. If you have a voting membership structure like for certain charities, they might have members who actually elect their board members. It’s more common in trade associations and homeowners associations things like that. But some charities have voting members, and removal, then becomes a lot more complicated. But having it having the procedure in your bylaws at least gives you kind of like the encyclopedia. Look at how to do this properly without feeling like it’s going to be too hard. We can’t do it and just live with it.

[00:44:26.89] spk_0:
I’m not familiar with this model you just described because you and you said it’s some five oh one C threes have elected board members. So

[00:44:28.78] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:44:29.71] spk_0:
so it has. The board has voted members on and can only remove them,

[00:45:22.59] spk_1:
actually the opposite way. So members elect the board members, so the members are responsible for electing and potentially removing board members. So you might think of that more in terms of like a union or a professional association or homeowners association, where all the homeowners elect the board. If they don’t like the board, they’ll remove them and put somebody else on to that board. So some charities are also structured that way. And that was to sort of been seen as a more democratic process of ensuring that the board stays responsive to what the members think. The mission is supposed to be, um, for smaller organizations. I generally don’t recommend it because it’s more costly. It’s much more difficult to manage and administer. Um, but nevertheless, I would say about 5 to 10% of the charities that we run into small charities we run into are structured that way.

[00:45:32.49] spk_0:
Not ideal, though, but they’re trying to be democratic. And

[00:45:36.99] spk_1:
that’s right.

[00:46:19.48] spk_0:
Okay, I see. All right. Well, that Yeah, that conversation to to hope that opening that conversation with the director to be removed is is hard. Maybe maybe the maybe the board member themselves themselves, uh, maybe the person. Maybe they can’t find the right pronoun. Maybe that person isn’t happy in the role either. That’s a possibility. It could be. You know, you could sort of open the conversation with it. Seems like, you know, this isn’t as you were suggesting, and I’m kind of putting a few things together. It seems like this isn’t quite the right role for you. You don’t seem happy as a board member. Uh, you know, you could open the conversation that way in trying to find something else to offer

[00:46:43.88] spk_1:
them. I think that’s a great way often to frame that that situation. I actually wrote an article for the nonprofit Quarterly. I think called something like 10 Reasons Why a director made gracefully want to resign from their organization, um, board. And so, yeah, framing it from their perspective and what they’re not getting is probably a good way to start it.

[00:46:59.58] spk_0:
I thought of something else before we wrap up. What do you think about junior boards, you know, maybe have an advisory role? There’s sort of a training improving ground for future board members, whatever you call it, might. It might just be the advisory board or something. But what do you think of that? That having, uh, that in your organization,

[00:47:26.78] spk_1:
I think you’ve done well. It works. Um, really Well, it raises potential future board members and gives you an introduction to the organization. Rather than bringing somebody straight into the board. They have a chance to be part of whatever you want to call it an advisory committee or, uh, the junior board. I would be careful with the name, depending upon who you’re planning to put on it.

[00:47:30.99] spk_0:
So junior board is not so good. All right.

[00:47:33.37] spk_1:
Unless it’s for, you know, unless you’re putting minors on it for advisory positions. Okay. Okay.

[00:47:44.08] spk_0:
But advisory, an advisory board advisory committee. And and it gets to be seen as a stepping stone for some folks to the board membership.

[00:48:04.17] spk_1:
Yeah, and to offer thought leadership from different perspectives. Um, so I think that’s good. But if you’re trying to increase diversity through an advisory border, Junior. But I would say Be very careful to make it not look like it is of less importance. And that’s why these people were put on that.

[00:48:54.37] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, right. Right. So all your yes, all your all the folks of color and other underrepresented groups are on the advisory board. Yeah, that’s well, that’s a sham. Alright, That’s right. Exactly. That’s inhumane. Alright. Yeah, I’m surprised you thought of that, Gene. You’re well. You see the good and the bad. All right, you’ve It’s not that you thought of it. You’ve seen it. You’ve seen it. I guess it’s It’s out there somewhere. All right. Thank you, Jeanne. Outstanding. Outstanding advice. Jeanne Takagi, our legal contributor. You’ll find them at nonprofit law blog dot com. You can find him at Columbia University if you’re a member of their student body in, uh, what is it? The nonprofit nonprofit management program at Columbia?

[00:49:01.07] spk_1:
Yep.

[00:49:07.17] spk_0:
Okay, so you’ll find him there. You also find him at neo law group dot com and you’ll find him at G T A K at G Tech. Thank you very much, Gene.

[00:49:12.87] spk_1:
Thanks, tony. Been a pleasure.

[00:50:05.17] spk_0:
My pleasure. As always. Thanks. Next week, I’m asking you to trust me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Mhm

Special Episode: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

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Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld

The willingness and skills of people of color aren’t represented in leadership circles. That’s the main message coming out of Building Movement Project’s report, “Race To Lead Revisited.” We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMP’s co-director, Sean Thomas-Breitfeld.

 

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[00:01:48.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism, people of color underrepresented in non profit leadership. That’s the main message coming out of building movement projects Report. Race to Lead Revisited We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMPs co director Sean Thomas Brett felled, responsive by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO and by dot drives, raise more money, changed more lives for a free demo and free month. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show. Sean Thomas Bright Felled. He is co director at the Building Moving Building Movement Project. He previously worked in various roles at community change, developing training programs for grassroots leaders and worked in the communications and policy departments where he coordinated online and grassroots advocacy efforts and lobbied on a range of issues including immigration reform, transportation, equity and anti poverty programs. Building movement project is at building movement, or GE, and at B L. D. I N G movement. John Thomas Bright felt Welcome to non profit radio

[00:01:51.64] spk_0:
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:53.33] spk_1:
It’s supposed

[00:01:53.87] spk_0:
to be here with you.

[00:01:54.83] spk_1:
It’s good. It’s a pleasure. Thank you. So why don’t you start by describing the work at Building Movement Project?

[00:02:02.44] spk_0:
Sure, so building movement projects been around for over 20 years, and from our founding we’ve had three main areas of focus. One is what we call movement building, looking at how organizations collaborate, how nonprofit organizations can be part of movements for social change and social justice, and what it takes for organizations and non profit leaders to really be on the forefront of making big leading some big structural changes in our society. We’ve also looked at what we call a non profits and social change or service and social change because we think there is a particular role for human service organizations in bringing about structural and systemic change in our society and that that’s really important to support on. Also encourage organizations like that to get involved in advocacy. Listen to an uplift, the voice and on power of the communities that are being served, and then the third bucket of work has always focused on leadership, so recognizing that leading a nonprofit organization is a very hard job we’ve always looked at What does it take for leaders? But also, what does it take for non profit leadership? Thio really have aligned both the practices of leadership with the values that organizations hold. And so over the last several years, we’ve been particularly focused on issues of race and leadership in non profit organization. That’s what the race to lead work comes out of.

[00:03:41.14] spk_1:
Okay, right? And the This race to lead revisited report is really comparing a 2016 survey for the original race to lead with a 2019 survey for this report. Exactly.

[00:04:04.84] spk_0:
Yeah, so we surveyed people working in the nonprofit sector both in 2016 and 2019 on these issues of race and leadership. So this report race to lead revisited at some comparisons between the findings from 2016 and 2019 to see how the sector’s been evolving

[00:04:55.34] spk_1:
and you did have some new questions as well. We’ll have time to get to some of those, um, you talk about Well, first I got to say, I realize the contrast here I have long white hair and you have short, dark hair. We are. We know in the hair. We are. We’re not similar in hair. My God. Uh, yeah, OK, Sorry I couldn’t help notice. Um, you talk about we’re gonna have fun on non profit radio. I mean, it’s a serious subject, but we have fun nonetheless. So you talk about white advantage in the report versus white privilege? You mentioned white privilege once or twice, but predominantly. Talk about white advantage. What’s the What’s the difference there? What? What? What are you trying to say? A little different than the the more seems more common, you know, white privilege.

[00:05:05.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So what’s the term white advantage? What we’re trying to focus on is some of the structural advantages that accrue to non profit organizations based on, you know, multiple people in positions of power being white. So particularly thinking about the composition of boards and the composition of senior leadership teams. Um, because, you know, I think oftentimes the analysis is very individualistic, right? So, like, there’s an individual white person in the executive director role of the organization that only paints part of the picture on DSO we wanted to have a more complicated and nuanced analysis of what’s actually happened. An organization s O, that it became less about, like, the it one person at the top of organizational hierarchy. And think about it, uh, in a way that encompasses both the board leadership and senior staff.

[00:06:04.44] spk_1:
Okay. And then the structures as well, it seems thio less focused on an individual or individuals and mawr, uh, levers of power and processes policies.

[00:06:27.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And it also became a way thio understand and sort of unpack. Um, how, uh, sort of whiteness of organizations that, like in our sample, right, like, 45% of respondents work for organizations where both more than 75% of the board is white and more than 75% of staff and top leadership are white on. And, you know, I think that for me, that was actually somewhat startling in surprising um, And then we also saw that those organizations tend to have bigger budgets at least was being reported by the staff. Um but then, at the same time, we’re seeing that staff were reporting more negative experiences in those types of organizations compared to organizations with more diverse leadership on both the board and senior staff levels.

[00:07:29.64] spk_1:
And so the overall message that I got from this is that the power remains in boards and at the sea levels of nonprofits, and those are predominantly white. And that and that that really hasn’t changed from 2016 to 2019.

[00:07:35.24] spk_0:
Yeah, that hasn’t well, it’s hard to know because we actually didn’t ask the question in this way back in 2016. But I think that this, um, sort of puts our data in the context of some of the research that board source has done that shows that boards are overwhelmingly the majority of non profit boards are overwhelmingly white

[00:07:59.14] spk_1:
and also not reflecting the communities that they’re serving. Absolutely. Yeah,

[00:08:01.54] spk_0:
yeah, because I think what has happened is that the function of non profit boards very often is less a function of accountability to the organization’s constituency and mission on, because organizations often have a lot of responsibility for fundraising and raising the resource is for the organization to do its work. Um, that as a result of that sort of demand, organizations often have, um, prioritized recruiting from people who holds wealth in their communities and because of racial wealth gaps that tend to be white people

[00:08:41.04] spk_1:
on dhe. That’s recruiting for both leadership and volunteer position board with talking about boards and you make it very clear we’re talking about boards as well as C suite. You know, CEO, executive director level.

[00:08:54.14] spk_0:
Absolutely.

[00:08:56.24] spk_1:
So let’s go into the three. I guess main conclusions that the report identifies first one is that things really haven’t changed that much. We’ve already alluded to it. Things haven’t changed that much in the three years.

[00:09:14.44] spk_0:
Yeah, and you know, I’m not sure how surprising that should be. Um, for our sector. You know, I think the change is often particularly in organizations. When we’re talking about organizations where we’re talking about the composition of the staff, that kind of change is incremental, right? I think that what has shifted is that, particularly in the last year is much more consciousness raising much more awareness on the part of organizations that these imbalances, these inequities exist and needs to be addressed. Um, but recognizing that there is a problem is not the same thing is taking action to address the problem.

[00:10:18.34] spk_1:
So you are seeing mawr alright, consciousness raising awareness. It seems like predominantly because of the diversity equity and inclusion work that Ah lot of organizations have done. But it’s just sort of, you know, I’m I gleaned from the reports, just sort of scratching the surface. I mean, ah, lot of it is trainings that raise awareness, but we’re not seeing much action flowing from that consciousness raising.

[00:10:23.84] spk_0:
Yeah, And so one example of the increased consciousness was that in both 2016 and 2019 we asked survey respondents what impact to their race had had on their career advancement. And, uh, for white respondents back in 2016 roughly half indicated that their race. They recognize that the race had a positive impact on their career advancement. So this sort of classic recognition of white privilege that increased to two thirds of the white sample in 29 so one from half to two thirds. So you know that is e think progress, right? In terms of like people having a recognition and understanding that white privileges riel and that it’s positively the benefits of that privilege are accruing to white people in nonprofit organization. Um however, the same question also revealed that back in 2016 a third roughly of people of color felt that their own race have negatively impacted their career advancement, and that then increased almost basically half off the sample of people of color in 2019. So the increased consciousness is both, you know, I think leading people to recognize the ways that they have been disadvantaged as well as for white people the way that they have been advantaged on DSO. You know, we’re still left with this challenge. This problem. That race is clearly having an impact on people’s advancement. And so it needs to be addressed in organizations in ways that I don’t think training is sufficient. Thio thick

[00:12:04.14] spk_1:
right? But you acknowledge consciousness, raising an awareness that that is the first step. But we have a lot more, a lot, a lot further to go. I mean, you know, it’s just

[00:12:14.61] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:12:50.24] spk_1:
widely recognized that, you know, you don’t just do trainings a couple of trainings over six months and then check your box. You know d e. I is covered. Let’s move on, Thio. Let’s move on to the gala. You know it za process. It’s a journey, you know we’ve had other guests say the same thing. It takes time. Thio, uh, change the policies, the practices, the traditions Even if they’re not written down, that our advantage ing white folks over people of color, This takes time. But you gotta You’ve got to start somewhere.

[00:12:52.74] spk_0:
Yes, and I think consciousness raising is is an important and legitimate starting point.

[00:13:42.54] spk_1:
Right? And we’re just getting started, okay? It’s time for a break. Turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know this turn to is led by former journalists. So you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships, they’re gonna help you when you want to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners was an editor of the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know the non profit space they’re at turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to P. O. C. Underrepresented in non profit leadership. Are you going to do this in three years again?

[00:13:45.94] spk_0:
It’s a very good question. You know, it’s hard

[00:13:48.15] spk_1:
to

[00:13:48.28] spk_0:
know, uh, in terms of, like, capacity funding, all of those things um, but yeah, I think that it seems worthwhile to keep revisiting thes issues, given the pace of change. Um, having been pretty slow just in the time that we’ve been collecting this data.

[00:14:24.14] spk_1:
All right, Um, anything else you want to say about you know, how the the findings from 2016 are pretty similar? Uh, yeah. Continue through to 2019 before we go on to the next. Well,

[00:14:24.49] spk_0:
sure. I think the reason that we felt like it was worth restating on pointing out the similarity in in terms of the findings between 2016 and 2019 was because, um, you know, from our perspective, it was really important to state very clearly to the sector. But there are people of color who are in the pipeline that the pipeline is not necessarily the problem. Uh, there’s, I think, different metaphors that people have used unpack and try to understand what the problem is of why we’re not seeing more representative leadership at the top levels of nonprofit organizations. And our view has just been that it’s not a pipeline issue per se. There are people of color who have the skills training credentials to be in those top roles, but they face racialized barriers to actually moving into those top jobs to being hired for those top jobs. And so we just felt like it was important to remind the sector of that finding, Um and sort of not lapse back into, ah narrative that, like we need to train more people of color because somehow people of color are not ready toe lead. People of color are ready to lead, but are often too often not given the opportunity.

[00:15:38.84] spk_1:
Not only have the skill sets already, but are willing to, in fact, what willing Thio want. Thio want to advance the leadership in greater numbers than the and the white respondents?

[00:15:51.94] spk_0:
Absolutely.

[00:15:53.03] spk_1:
E guess. There’s narrative that, you know there’s a lack of interest in in people of color advancing toe leadership. But you’ve dashed that.

[00:16:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that part of the reason that’s important is because if people hold this mental model that who wants to be a leader is, uh, not a person of color, then they’re going to ignore the leadership potential of people of color in their organization.

[00:16:26.64] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s very convenient. Well, you know, the folks of color don’t really aspire to leadership. So no need to consider them. So Okay, so you’ve you’ve dashed that it’s not so in two respects. It’s not a pipeline issue. The skills air there and the willingness Is there a ZX? Well,

[00:16:36.24] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:16:42.44] spk_1:
desire Thio advance and to lead. Okay, Um right. So remember your second main main conclusion, I guess, is there is white advantage. We were talking around it. Now we come right out and say there is white advantage in the nonprofit sector.

[00:18:59.24] spk_0:
There is. And, um, you know, I think that the the white advantage takes multiple forms, right? So I think that there have been over the last several months Mawr written about like, what happened? What’s called now? Philanthropic redlining, right, that organizations that are led by people of color, particularly black led organizations, are don’t get access to the same kind of resource is as the white led organizations focused on or serving in communities of color. And so there’s really interesting research both from organizations like Abssi A ZX, well as echoing green and bridge span that really dug into that funding disadvantage. And I think that our data also showed similar findings, particularly when it comes to, for instance, e. D s of color. And this was reported on Maurin a report from based on the 2016 data but E d s of color feeling like they don’t have, they don’t get grants of comparable size to peer organization or that they don’t have access Thio relationships with funders. And so those kinds of advantages in terms of like, who funders trust who funders will give bigger grants thio all of those benefits than accrue to white led organizations that then create this financial gap between organizations, nonprofit organizations based on who’s in positions of power in that institution. And so other ways that the white advantage showed up were in terms of the sort of composition of organizations and the greater comfort that white people, uh, seem tohave in. Those organizations, for instance, on questions like Do people feel like they have a voice in their organization for people working in white, dominant organizations were both the board and senior staff are more than 75% white. That’s where we saw the biggest gaps between people of color and whites in terms of their their agreement with that statement, right? And that gap decreases as you have mawr diverse organizations. And it’s also interesting to note that the average the mean increases. So both people of color and white respondents are more likely to say they have a. They have a voice in their organizations when they work for POC lead groups. So if you know, funders want to invest in organizations that are cultivating that kind of leader full ecosystem inside of their organization that, you know, make it possible for staff to feel like they have a voice and can help to set the direction for the organization, then you know foundations would be wise to really take a hard look at their own investment and the composition of organizations that they’ve been funding on. DSI. You know, like, are these organizations largely white run or are they POC lead on. And if there are largely white one, they should start investing in more organizations that are POC ledge.

[00:20:06.94] spk_1:
You identify five opportunities which we’ll get to, and one of those is put your money where your mouth is. You just say, put your, uh, you

[00:20:08.83] spk_0:
know, money

[00:20:54.04] spk_1:
where mouth is for sure. Yeah, I mean that’s a critical lever of power is funding for any anyone, whether it’s whether it’s corporate or non profit access to capital access to markets. Um, you know, what I thought was really interesting is, um, when you were identifying whether an organization was white lead or POC lead you, you chose as a threshold for white lead, whether more than 75% whether the Board of Leadership is more than 75% white. But then for for people of color lead, the threshold was just 50%. Is that because there just aren’t enough that are that are at the 75% level? So you had to reduce the yet to reduce the threshold to define it as person of color lead? Was that the reason?

[00:21:02.45] spk_0:
Yes. I mean, I think that it reflects the sort of composition of the sector, right. So 45% of respondents reported working for organizations where more than 75% of the board and senior staff were white on then it only 14% of respondents reporting working for organizations where it was over 50% of board and senior staff where people of color, you know, like it’s

[00:21:30.25] spk_1:
hard to have

[00:21:30.98] spk_0:
a comparison between Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:34.02] spk_1:
75% shoulder, 75% for PFC. Lead was gonna be too small a sample You

[00:21:40.57] spk_0:
a

[00:21:41.99] spk_1:
handful of Okay, uh, e suspected. Okay. Um, yeah. The experience was a little more about the experience. How people experience how people of color experience work in a in a white led organization.

[00:21:58.84] spk_0:
Well, I have to say, this was surprised, Not surprising. But it was interesting that the data was so clear, um, that the these racial gaps were so much larger for respondents working for white run organizations compared toa the POC led groups. And, um, you know, I think that it reflects what we’ve been hearing from the focus groups that we’ve been doing across the country in terms of the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color working in organizations that, um, you know, I think often feel somewhat alienating. And where people feel like they, um their leadership potential is not recognized or supported on dso. It was just a really, uh it was nice to have the data show, uh, and really reflect what we’ve been hearing anecdotally through focus groups and interviews around the country,

[00:22:59.54] spk_1:
You mentioned three organizations that have contributed to this work. One of them was bridge span. And then what were the other to save them. Save them a little slower theater, too.

[00:23:03.21] spk_0:
Sure. So a few months ago, bridge span and echoing green partnered on a report that looked at the going echoing green,

[00:23:14.57] spk_1:
echoing green

[00:24:50.44] spk_0:
green. Yeah, they partnered toe look at the funding that had accrued to organization organizational leaders who had gone through echoing Green’s programs. And so they were able to then really track and demonstrate that black leaders compared toa white leaders who had gone through the same kind of leadership development programs were getting very different levels of financial support on So that report came out at, you know, the earlier in the spring and last winter, an organization called Absi, which is the Organization for African Americans in philanthropy. On DSO, the acronym is a B E, and they put out a report looking at what they call the philanthropic redlining, this phenomenon of financial support from foundations accruing to white led organizations rather than to POC lead or black led organizations. So they use this terminology of redlining because it’s evocative of historical policy that led to very dramatic differences in terms of what sort of development and investment was possible, uh, in cities and neighborhoods based on this policy of redlining. And their point is that the imbalances, the inequities and where philanthropic dollars flow leads toa completely different prospects for organizations. And because some organizations grow because they get the funding and other organizations sort of. Whether on the bun

[00:25:06.34] spk_1:
isn’t the large majority of the smaller organizations I think you’re special was under a million dollars aren’t Isn’t the majority of those POC lead?

[00:25:08.44] spk_0:
It was, Yeah, it was striking to see that a much larger share of POC led organizations had budgets under a million

[00:25:30.34] spk_1:
dollars compared to, for instance, what led organizations? And, ah, large, large majority of those are a million dollars or under in funding or annual budget.

[00:25:31.18] spk_0:
Yes, okay, yeah, in terms of the annual budget

[00:26:27.24] spk_1:
annual budget. Okay, time for our last break. Dot drives drives engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives walks you through donor engagement. It’s a tool that’s simple, affordable and focuses you on building donor relationships and trust. There’s a free demo, and for listeners a free first month. Go to the listener landing page at tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for POC, underrepresented in non profit leadership. And then the third main point is that d I. Efforts are widespread, you say, and their effectiveness is uncertain, I would say, but but their effectiveness is uncertain. You’re a little more optimistic. Um, so, yeah, we were scratching the surface of this before, but you know, say same or about what’s being done, but what the limitations of it are.

[00:26:35.74] spk_0:
Well, first off, I think it’s important to acknowledge that three quarters of the sample reported that their organizations were doing something related to diversity equity inclusion. And so the ubiquity of D I efforts is, you know, I think good. And I think it’s a relatively new phenomenon, right? Like it’s become the topic at a lot of conferences over the past five years. And so all of which is to say that like organizations are getting started right now, Um, and maybe it’s long overdue, but this is a moment when organizations are getting started. I think that the challenge, the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color. And the younger staff of, you know, diverse diversity of younger staff is that I think for far too often it feels like organizational checklist. It feels like a sort of double. Organizations are saying the right things, but not actually changing anything about their recruitment practices or internal hiring and promotion strategy. So, yeah, I think that that is the the frustrating in that, like the ubiquity does not equal impact.

[00:28:43.94] spk_1:
I just want to remind listeners the report is called Race to Lead Revisited and you can get it at building movement dot or ge. All right, Sean, how do you feel about talking? Oh, there’s there’s a quote. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You You pepper the report with quotes in the margin on Dhe there. Ah, lot of them struck me that. I’m just going to read one that was probably half a dozen or so that, you know, sort of stopped me a little bit. But, uh, Pakistani woman, I don’t believe I’m taking us seriously in the workplace because I am a young woman of color. I often question things which doesn’t always go over well in majority white organizations. I’ve been used as a token brown person that za harsh reality Thio Thio read and for her to admit in a survey that, you know, I’m a token. Um So I thought the quotes were very evocative.

[00:28:55.84] spk_0:
Well, yeah, thanks. I mean, we we really think it’s important to balance the quantitative data with, you know, hundreds upon hundreds of right and responses from survey respondents and then also the focus groups that we do. We also gain a ton of insights from those conversations as well.

[00:29:16.34] spk_1:
You feel OK, go into the five opportunities or is there Is there mawr anything more you wanna bring out about the the report itself? Well, this is part of the report, but about the conclusions, conclusions and findings.

[00:29:40.34] spk_0:
Well, I guess I would just add in terms of the sort of d I and, uh, there’s the both the skepticism, but also the impact, right? I think that, um, there’s, you know, I think there’s a lot of skepticism about training, often times. But our data did show that for reserving respondents that reported that their organization trained on a variety of topics. They had more positive views on the impact of training on their organization. I think that just speaks to the importance and need for organizations have, like, multifaceted well around D. I initiatives so that training is not again, like just the check box on or sort of like. Okay, we did the training on white privilege, and so we’re sort of done that the training is a way of both sparking but also sustaining critical conversations in organizations. And that’s why it’s useful for organizations to do training repeatedly and on a variety of topics.

[00:30:59.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it was. It was forearm. Or if organizations had had training on four or more topics than both white, the white respondents and the people, people of color respondents, um, felt it was it was more advantageous. So they got there was more valuable training than if it was three or fewer. Could you just take off a couple of different topics that that folks should be looking to training? I mean, not not exhaustive, but you know, what are some of the some of the topics that people should be thinking about training wise?

[00:31:07.27] spk_0:
Sure, yeah. So eso in terms of the topics that we tested for in the survey people indicated that whether the organization had done training on white privileged, specifically whether they had done training on implicit bias because that is a concept that I think has gained mawr currency in the sector. Structural racism, for instance. Um, like do people think of racism as just about interpersonal dynamics or as or as the result of structural, um, and systemic forces that are being replicated by policy? A. ZX well, as implicitly, um, also racial trauma and healing. I think it’s a training topic that is becoming more popular and developed, so there’s a variety of topics, and I think the important thing is just for organizations to be open to having and doing training on a wide variety of topics.

[00:32:07.74] spk_1:
And again, the more topics, the more valuable people will feel. Three outcomes are, um So let’s go to the opportunities. Then why don’t you once you start us off?

[00:32:19.04] spk_0:
Sure.

[00:32:20.17] spk_1:
I’m sure. Wait. I put you on the spot. Do you know that you may not have him off the top of your head? I have notes I haven’t written down, so I don’t need thio Put you on the spot memorized? I don’t know do you?

[00:32:32.07] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve got it.

[00:32:33.81] spk_1:
Okay. Okay.

[00:32:47.44] spk_0:
First in the first one was focused on structures as well as the experiences of staff. Right on DSO. You know, I think it’s pretty straightforward, but I think the the reason that we felt felt like it was really important toe lift up lived experience of staff working in organizations is because of what we saw in terms of those experience questions, right? Like, do people feel they have a voice in their organizations or not? Right. We also thought it was important to point out that policies have to actually be in force, right? Like organizations can’t just say this is our policy. But if people don’t see evidence that actual behavior and practices air changing as a result of the policy, um, then you know, I think there are real questions about whether that has real impact.

[00:33:22.08] spk_1:
There is, as

[00:33:23.32] spk_0:
we said earlier,

[00:33:35.84] spk_1:
you’re not walking the talk. Then if you have ah, policy on anti discrimination and someone says something derogatory and it doesn’t get dealt with according to the policy. Yeah, that’s a joke. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:33:39.94] spk_0:
Um, we also thought it was important toe, you know, really, focus on the funding dynamics, so particularly for grantmaking organizations. But put your money where, like your mouth is essentially right. Like there are increasing number of foundations, that air saying that the I is important. Ah, nde sort of signaling to their grantees. But those organizations need to take d. I seriously need to diversify their boards and staff things like that. But if the foundations have not taken similar steps, if the foundations have not to diversify their own or internal institution, or the foundations have not sort of critically examined their portfolio of grants like are there racial disparities in terms of what the amounts of funding, which organizations get access to funding that sort of thing? All of that is about foundations being very serious on reflect about being reflective in terms of their own commitments to D. I.

[00:35:24.04] spk_1:
And you have reflecting reflecting your community, which we touched on a little bit, that that was really striking, how you know it’s intuitive. I mean, I realized it, but to see the numbers of, um, Whitelighter organizations that are serving POC communities, eyes like two thirds or something, I think, um, it’s startling that leadership does not reflect the communities that they’re serving, and that includes the board. I mean, you you wanna have voices from the from the folks you’re serving contributing to your contributing to your you’re you’re major decisions a ZX the board should be doing

[00:35:28.54] spk_0:
Yeah, and again, like, as I said earlier, like, if organizations see the function of the board as about accountability as about setting the direction for the organization, then I think those organizations will see the need and value of having a board that is reflective of the community that’s being served. But if organizations have the sort of rationale for maintaining the board is to have access to people with wealth and connections, and there’s obvious reasons that organizations go that route. Then they’re going to stack. They’re bored with wealthy people in their communities on again because of racism. Those wealthy people are not likely to be people of color from the constituency that’s being served

[00:36:15.53] spk_1:
and your last one responsibility and results.

[00:36:26.79] spk_0:
Yeah, I think our sense was that organizations air pushed to track a lot of things nowadays and so, like what gets measured is often what then matters. And so our sense was that organizations should be very clear about what their commitments are going to be to race equity. And, um, you know, really track those commitments and then track the results of that come out of, like, what kind of organizational change strategies they pursue. And so, you know, if organizations they’re doing like an annual review or annual reports, are they reporting on their goals and objectives around race equity? That is one way to sort of ensure that organizations are staying on track on dhe, that its multiyear commitment

[00:37:13.58] spk_1:
it’s gonna take

[00:37:14.84] spk_0:
multiple years of change.

[00:37:38.03] spk_1:
Uh, you know, just pay attention. You can move the needle on things. If you start paying attention to them, you’re saying, if you measure it, you’ll you’ll you’ll be. You’ll be accountable to it. So high attention to it. If your If your statements say that you value racial equity, then measure it, hold yourself accountable and commit to those years of change.

[00:37:41.23] spk_0:
Yeah, and I think it’s even better if organizations do that. Make that accountability public, eso that they’re the sort of reporting is to their staff. It’s to their board. It’s to their community so that, like the statements of the organizations stand with. For instance, black lives matter, then backed up with organizations being able to say. And here’s how we lived into that commitment. Here are the things that we did over the past year that made that riel,

[00:38:10.82] spk_1:
Sean, anything, anything at all that we didn’t cover that you want to talk about.

[00:38:16.52] spk_0:
Um, no, I think we covered a lot.

[00:38:34.22] spk_1:
Okay, well, we did. You know, it’s not profit radio. We cover a lot of ground, but, you know, we can only scratch the surface. I mean, we cover a lot, but what you want to read the details, So just get the damn thing. Uh, the report again is, um race toe lead racing. No race race, the lead race, the lead be visiting

[00:38:38.27] spk_0:
the lead revisited.

[00:38:49.92] spk_1:
Used to lead you visited. You’ll find it at building movement or GE. That’s where you’ll find building movement project. And Sean Thomas Bright felled. Who is co director, right, Sean, Thank you very much. Thank you.

[00:38:52.07] spk_0:
Thanks so much for having me

[00:39:32.72] spk_1:
absolutely appreciate your time. Thank you. Reminder were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives raise more money changed more lives. Tony dot Emma slash dot for a free demo and a free month, Our creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy. This music is by Scott Stein and with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 25, 2018: Board Change Agents & Authentic Selves In Work

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Raj Aggarwal, Sabelo Narasimhan & Glamarys Acevedo:
 Authentic Selves In Work
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference shares strategies for workplace inclusion so that all selves are welcome and accepted. They are Raj Aggarwal from Provoc; Sabelo Narasimhan with 350.org; and Glamarys Acevedo at Mamatoto Village.

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with polychrome at ophelia if you stained our relationship by saying you missed today’s show authentic selves at work, our panel from the non-profit technology conference shares strategies for workplace inclusion so that all selves are welcome and accepted. They are raja agarwal from provoke sabelo narra symon with three fifty dot or ge and glamarys azevedo at mamatoto village and board change agents you want to shake things up on your board and in your order, greg cohen takes us through the process of identifying, recruiting and exploiting agents of change on your board he’s with cause effective tony take to the ninety six year old secretary with eight million dollars in her will. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by regular cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps, dot com and by telus turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s here is authentic selves at work from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen, ninety si you know what that is? It’s a non-profit technology conference. You know where we are in new orleans at the convention center. This interview is scheduled centerview response, sir. Why not buy network for good? Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits and they’re sponsoring it. They didn’t schedule it. My guests are raja agarwal, sabelo, naralo kayman and glamarys azevedo raj is president of provoke i say that right provokes correct. Okay. I didn’t ask about pronouncing your company name. I only asked about your personal name. He did a great job amglobal pronounce her company name wrong to propose. They say sabelo robak provoc which is the traditional latin version of alright, alright. And sabelo is north american digital campaign manager at three. Fifty dot org’s and glamarys is the professional development specialist mamatoto village. Raj sabelo glamarys welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much for spending time and sharing your wisdom. Your seminar topic is bringing your whole self to work. Let’s, start down the end. There glamarys what’s the what’s. The trouble what? What? What would you like to? See, people do better when they go to work each day, right? I think our our session is going to be really or, you know, you don’t have a minute neo-sage exactly so this is a little preview, right? Eh? So we’re going to be speaking about, you know, who has the privilege of bringing their whole self to work, you know, and who doesn’t write s o i think some of us work in places where we do not how the privilege to bring our whole selves to work, right? Because there might be, you know, things, implications, teo, those actions bring your whole self, and then maybe some of us work in places where we feel like we’re getting closer to being ableto have an environment where we bring ourselves to work, what is the whole self? What do you mean? You have to forgive my voice? I’ve done about thirty these interviews what i say, what do you mean? What do you mean when you say the whole self? That is a great question, so i believe just in from my experience i’ve been and workplaces where i had to bring a version of myself to work. So that i could, you know, excel within, maybe they’re parameters, but it wasn’t maybe my whole authentic excel unlike where i work now, where i feel like i can bring my whole donor-centric self and it’s something that’s really valued, and i’m able to excel in that and growing myself instead of growing into stumping that someone else wants me to be. But what is your whole self, my health? So, i mean, that is that is that i’d like to ask everybody such a such a layered right eye, a multifaceted so there’s just there’s so many layers to my whole selves like that’s really? Uh, parsing that out twenty five minutes. I could take the whole entire teo, but we’ll start with your woman. Yes, s o that’s. Great. Yes, i’m a woman. I don’t fires a woman identify as a black latina. Um, identify as in my workplace, this is important. I defy with someone who is single without children. S so there’s some things that, you know, come up. You know, i’m bilingual, you know, those of certain things that come up in my workplace, that i’m able to bring my whole self and that and i feel like those are factors that are used against to me, which i think in some environments it could be and has not just could nobody has. Okay, okay. Sabelo yes? How do you do? Well, let let’s, before we ask, before i asked how you define your i don’t define describe your whole self, but before that what’s your what’s your intro to this topic, why did you feel this was unnecessary session at ntc? I feel like in the nonprofit world there’s been a lot of conversation over the last few years about bringing your whole self toe work, and most of it has been led by cece hat white males and women on dh they are proposing practicing vulnerability and taking risks and not worrying about being judged or the implications of bringing your whole self to work, and they see it from a very narrow they’re like my ionic, which which it means something entirely different for a person of color means something entirely different for someone like me to bring my whole self toe work, and the consequences are often not, uh, positive, so you know there’s a lot of wing of choices. That are made about when and how to bring your whole self to work so that it’s actually supporting yourself and not putting yourself in dangerous situation. Okay, i guess we’re going talk some about creating an environment that enables, yes, someone to bring their whole cell exact okay, the way glamarys feels comfortable, who is your whole self? Sabelo well, again, as glamarys said that’s a complicated question, but i identify as trans queer, immigrant of color on dh i have a lot of identities, but most of which are hyre not the mainstream at the organization i work at, and so i’m often used to being in situations where i’m the on ly x or the on ly why or the only z and s so how does that feel? Uh, it feels isolating it feels difficult to contradict what the expectations are for a leader toe look like what the expectations are for a person who’s doing good work in the organization toe look like and the particular ways that i need to be supported rather than undermined for bringing my whole self toe my eyes water actually, raj, welcome. Thank you. How would you to find the need for this session, um, i, too, believe that a lot of the conversation that’s happening is off, and technology is important. Designs important. I make my living doing it. But i think that we often have to leave who we really are when we come into interactions with other people. And i think the ending result is products, environments, people just not not being as effective as they could be if we really tapped into so authentic selves who we are. And so i find that the more that i’m able to be my whole self work, it gives our client’s gives the rest of our team permission to be themselves, too, and i find working together with them ends up being a lot better and what we produce is it being a lot better, but i think sometimes we’re just to. Oriented on the on some expectation of what should all look like versus what it truly is and how it’s continuously evolving time for a break pursuant, they have a new site and a brand refresh and the top creatives they’re the two senior creatives that worked on this. Put together a podcast with tips and lesson learned lessons learned that’s, taylor shanklin and andy goldsmith at pursuant may share how they kept it user focused, plus their expertise doing this with hundreds of sites. It’s a combo with tips and strategies lessons learned you’ll find it at pursuant dot com slash launch. Now let’s, go back to our convo you feel if if there’s, if there are parts of your whole self that you have to withhold, then you’re withholding your best work. Yeah, maybe not consciously, probably not consciously, but if you can’t be yourself, you can’t give everything that you can to your clients. Your organization? Yeah, i think it really pulls back on our ability to create creative solutions. I think that this idea that there is a separation between work and life, it doesn’t make sense to me. Um, i’m the owner of my company. I’ve been doing that for a long time, and i do the work that i do and most people in the non-profit work do the work that they do because they love it, you know, the number of people that i’ve spoken to that have been no offense hoodwinked by there by their organizations because they believe in the mission, but they’re not being paid well or treated well, but they believe in the mission over and over again, and on top of that, they don’t get to be them, but they do it because they love it. So in one way, you could say that they’re being manipulated by the system to do this thing, and then at the same time, they’re not able to be themselves at the same time, but they’re only reason they’re there is because they love it. So i think distinguishing those two needs to go away, who’s your whole self. Yeah, well, i think it’s also complex the way that my wonderful colleagues here have mentioned, but one of the things that i talk about, a lot of different things, i’m a male out primary owner of a company, and so i’m also a male who’s in a position of power i’m my heritage is from india, and i’m a person of color. I’m on a very interesting journey around race because i’m not black, i’m not wait on dh that’s seems to be, you know, obviously a really big conversation that’s happening in america today and always has been for a long time, but i’m also formerly heroin addict, and so i told my story on npr about three years ago, and i was very public about it. I wasn’t anonymous about it, and i found a lot of freedom from doing that, not only you just just in general and it’s it’s opened up a lot for me by having to release holding that back, whether it be with clients or whether it be with my team or with my family or with the rest of my south asians culture. You know, just these things, there’s once you remove the shame or whatever, people might impose his shame for some choices that you make that aren’t mainstream. Yeah, hopefully is what people impose not not what you’re feeling, but but those air those are so intertwined because it’s about acceptance it’s about being loved and if we don’t have that, then you know, we don’t feel we don’t feel comfortable being ourselves briefly. What was the npr story about with regard to heroin addiction? Yeah, you know, they talk about this thing called the opioid epidemic, which i think is baloney, because people of color have been impacted by heroin for over forty or fifty years, and at the very least, at least in this country and now that it’s become showing up in more in a rural communities may be impacting more people that are white, it’s become this, quote unquote, epidemic. And so i really want to talk about how it was one of the hardest things that i’ve ever had to go through in my life. As i was doing the interview, i had the privilege of having my parents with me, and they heard things that i had experience that they never even knew was there, and so was a tremendous amount of healing between myself and my family, but your parents heard some things for the first time in front of a mike in front of a mike. It was all recorded. I have it, i can share with you, tony, if you yeah, okay, it was a seven that’s, a pretty authentic radio. It was seven and a half minutes, and it was picked up by national npr and played all over the place, and i got hundreds of people reaching out to me, especially of south asian background, being like, you know, how can we talk about this? Because i’m struggling with some of the same thing. If someone wants to listen to that, can they just google your name, and they are, they can, and the name of the interview is called heroin. Heroin addiction sucks. It totally does, just for the record, okay, guard. Sabelo who? Who are the people that can bring their whole selves to work without a fear of shame, of being downcast. Who what population is that that khun company will bring it’s whole self? I think, at least especially in the american context. But really globally we live in a system of white supremacy, and that is seen as the mainstream that is seen as the norm that is seen as, you know, white male, i presume, is what we’re talking about. White women too on dh and there’s, there’s there’s a sense of their huge blind spots. These folks have white folks has around bonem there’s just so much that they don’t even think about, you know, they don’t question because they’ve just been entitled to just be themselves and it’s ok to bring their, you know, tears in or it’s ok to bring there dahna, you know, decisions in without worrying about will people listen to you? Well, people respect you, they can delegate, they could do all these things without ever having questioned i want to challenge something that you feel like women could bring their their whole self, comfortably white women i’m not sure for me see for me race and gender are like central to my thinking, but race is the primary driver like it’s, the biggest elephant in the room in every workplace i’ve been a part of in the us and, you know, for me that overshadows what white women experience, which can be challenging, but like, for example, in non-profits including my own, there are tons of white women in leadership, and there have been so, you know, they do experience certain forms of oppression, but and that that might limit their ability to bring in, whether they’re, you know, a mother or whether you know, other other parts, but but there’s also, i think additional blind spots created because they feel like they’re, you know, put down by the white men, and so therefore they don’t have to analyze their own reiteration of those kinds of behaviors. Glamarys how do you feel about that? Women wait, women being able to bring their whole self? Yeah, i completely agree with the fellow on that on because i think white women with what i think has not been highlighted is that white women, they really do uphold white supremacy, right? I think that is the root of what we’re speaking of here and the fact that we’re constantly, you know, i feel like the narratives always like all the white man, the white men it’s, just like but if you look at this is the white people and white women are part of that, and i feel like even to my experience with non-profits like, you know, at the end of the day, yes, they have other parts of themselves that they have to bring into work, but they i feel like i have that that privileged to be able to do that in a way that people, people of color do not get to do that. So in that sense, i can’t i’m not willing to sort of, you know, like, i don’t know why women, no, like they also uphold white supremacy, and so we have to talk about that that dynamic in the workplace. How about the workplace? That’s? Why what? I want to go to creating a workplace that is inclusive, that doesn’t impose shame, fear, love, discrimination, recrimination, let’s start since we were down there with you, america, how do we what strategies can you share, too? Because we have a lot of listeners. Who are ceos? Executive director among our among our listeners. What do you want to say? I would say, you know, hyre black people and rolls of leadership hyre black women and rolls of leadership, i think, like, at the end of the day, like getting those people and to those rows of leadership is going to affect the, you know, dynamics that are happening at non-profits that are kind of like a monolith right now, right? Like it’s, you know, white on top, and then maybe, you know, as you trickle down on it would be, you know, more people of color, but that’s not the way like, if you’re really wanting to be inclusive, that’s not the way to get it to bilich oh, we met some sort of quota because we have enough, you know, workers of color and itjust like, but where are they within the company, right? What about the pushback that there aren’t enough applicants of color a senior leader for senior leadership position? So with that piece, i would go to the job description and you can see the, you know, racial undertones, even within that, right? Like what? What, like when when? You put it in there like when you put into job descriptions, maybe not, including, like, maybe experience, but really trying to highlight, like education. We already know they’re very like large disparities within, like, even educational requirements, and but someone might have the experience, you know, just from working to be, but be great person for this role, but because you have maybe this piece in here it’s like, oh, they have to have, you know, a master degree and this and that, you know, i mean, like, those kind of sort of pre requisites really end up excluding people from being even able to even apply track. S o i think some even like looking into that, i think when people are riding up, you know, they’re just just job description, what they’re looking for if they were true, like, if they really were to look at it and parse it out there looking for a white, you know, male, female, really to fit into these roles, they may not be doing it consciously, right? But they are doing it subconsciously and so that’s something that i’ve, you know, been able to see whenever i’m going to go. Up imply for roles i i think i may be a really great fit for this, but because of some of these markers that they have put in there, they’re not realizing that they’re really excluding frumpy people, you know, to apply so people of color, like they’re out there, and they’re ready to take on these roles and be really excellent in these roles. But it’s really the environ first of all, the environment of those non-profits do people even want apply there? Because it might be one of those things that rogers speaking to where is like, the mission seems amazing, but then you look at, like, the culture of it, you’re just like i’m not really even wanting to be a part of that writes that might also be contributing to why those organizations feel like there is in that pool of applicants, right? But people are out there that there’s no one can tell me that there’s not people of color who can come in and, you know, a part of these rolls but i think it’s a lot around the the oh, gosh, it’s word this morning napor martignetti yeah, the markers of it, you know, but okay, but isn’t education a reasonable requirement for see you, lucia? But if it’s a cfo it’s reasonable to expect a degree in finance, correct, i think, but i know i hear you on that piece, i just feel like what’s not being thought about is people’s experiences experience coming into these rolls, right? Like, if you have these, like defined markers of, like, you have to have this that’s in that, like when it comes, i think the educational metoo means something like a bachelor’s degree or further in finance or equivalent life experience, right? Exactly. I’m starting to see more of that happening, which i think is super important, and i think that is a better way of sort of approaching those sort of things whenever job descriptions are being put out there. But yes, i’m definitely speaking to that she has an employer. Um, i totally agree one thing that i’ve found is that i had no idea how much code was in the language that i was putting out in my job description, but i’m a person of color. And what else did you find besides education language, like professional or expertise or networks? Of people where i was putting out the job description to because if i kept on putting out to my two don’t people of color, i have networks, and aren’t they professional and missing even the word wife? I mean, there were those air more ground, even the word professional is code for a certain type of person that might dear to what the standards are, whatever professionally, i think i think that you have tio i think you have to start with the assumption that there is a qualified person of color for every role you’re hiring for and that you do not need to lower your standards in order to get a person of color in those roles. It’s just about changing the language, many most people get jobs through network through who they know. There are even their stats that black college graduates from the same schools get jobs at much lower rates than the white college graduates from those same schools. It’s clear that the disparities air there even with equivalent education, so you just have to re tune yourself. You have to reframe the job based on that assumption that, like, you’re not reaching the right, people that you want to bring in to actually get creative, innovative new thinking in your company and like different perspectives, different questions ask different projects prioritized because you’ll get different people than just those same old, same old people that you have. Another part about the issue was specifically with the cfo, which i think is a really good example the people that run our books at our company don’t have a degree in finance, they even work, and i’ve been writing a sustainable business for over nineteen years, and what i find is that people that often are very dogmatic about particular numbers, they’re not really understanding the missions. So when there’s a nuance to a particular decision that isn’t just about money but about impact, they’re not able to discern it in that way. So i think it’s more important, that they have well rounded experience are connected to the mission versus just having it the degree that indicates that they were educated by some ivy league university that says that they can do this thing, but it doesn’t mean that other blind spots are going. I’m guessing it’s, you would find it insufficient to just have a statement that says people of color re hyre regardless of treyz sexual orientation, uh, gender, etcetera, just have a disqualifier at the bottom of a job description. I’m guessing you would believe that that’s not sufficient. I don’t think the necessary that’s necessary, but not sufficient. It’s what? It’s a it’s, a it’s. A very basic. Okay, what is it? I didn’t. I don’t get your point about the word professional or networks because people of color, people who are trans i mean, they have their professional and they have networks. I’m what am i missing? Professionalism in america is usually about assimilation, assimilation to white supremacy, assimilation to an idea being american. If you have an act sent getting rid of it, if you have dreadlocks not wearing them to work, you know, there’s there’s a lot wrapped up in that word professional that perhaps a lot of people don’t think about white people don’t think about but all the people of color i know do think about the you know, the ways in which they conform or code switch to adapt to workplace ideas about professionalism. Good let’s go so it’s kind of pathetic als bringing your whole self toe work if we’re talking about a simulation. Yeah. Same. Or what do you mean? Well, if we’re all going to be the same, then what’s the point of us being individual human beings with their own personalities, experiences, characteristics, perspectives like, you know, one of the things that i do in washington, d c is i helped to create it an inclusive economy. And one of the things that we really try to push out as much as we can is big boxes. And because people want to live in communities where there are businesses that represent their own individual needs are owned by people within their community. Everybody going no offense and mcdonald’s or the target over and over again. And also no target has its own place in the world as faras economics go. But the point is, how do we create a unique environment that is representation of each of our beautiful, unique selves? Let’s go further than beyond the job description. What would you like to say? A little like some idea. Yeah. I mean, hiring is, of course, a really important prerequisite. But beyond hiring retention support, um, i have a very strong voice i have a really unique perspectives to bring in that would really help push the work forward creative solutions to some of the challenges my organization faces. If i’m not in an organization that can support me to say challenging things, if i’m not in a place where bob that leads to my promotion rather than my demotion, or my being tradition or marginalization, yeah, exactly like it really takes a lot of ongoing work to support people of color and marginalized folks in in a workplace and to really buildup and, you know, empire their leadership rather than undermining them. What form can that support tape? I understand in terms of encouraging the voice, encouraging a voice that’s not traditional typical but what other are there other things that employers could do to support to make that support explicit in the organization? What else do you like? My suggestion is one one is model as much as you can that it’s ok to bring your hosts off to work. And secondly, humility and talking as little as possible. It’s really there there’s so many beautiful voices that just aren’t heard on a regular basis. And if you could just sit and listen. What emerges to me? It fascinates me every single day. We have to spend another minute or so together see glamarys start, we started with you, we’re gonna we’re gonna book and you’re gonna be booking wrap up with you in a little less than a minute or so, you know, some encouragement and some motivation, okay? So that’s that’s the way to make a change to make change, to encourage the diversity that we’re talking about? Yeah, so again, for for within my work environment, we ended up sort of like creating our own way talk about this whole, like, sea at the table sort of thing, and so we just ended up making our own table, right? And so i think from there we have a fork work force development program, and we’re just were, you know, bringing people in from the community and giving him those skills, you know, that they’re not having the opportunity to get in other places, and our hope is that we’re just we’re going to be able to flood sort of in our field with eventjournal child held just flood the field with, you know, women of color, people of color who are going to be ready to go on to the leadership roles so that’s like a peace that we’re really that’s. How sort of were targeting that. So i really appreciate that approach. All right, that was glamarys azevedo she’s, a professional development specialists mamatoto village. And next to her in the middle is sabelo kayman north american digital campaign manager at three. Fifty dot org’s. And next to me is raja agarwal, president of provos provoc provoc provoc look provoc provoc provoc group provoke provoke. Thank you, roger. Good sport. This is an interview. Is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donordigital and fund-raising software for non-profits. I wanna thank you so much for being with twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. Thank you so much to our panel. I need to take a break. Wittner. Cps. You know what cps do? Nine nineties and audits mostly, right? Although wagner does go beyond the numbers hear me say that it’s true started wagner, cpas dot com get comfortable in one dimension. Then go human-centered he coached whom? He’s been a guest. I know him. You know him? He’s been on multiple times. He’s. A good guy. No pressure is not like that. His number is. At wagner cps dot com, which is where you get started now. Time for tony steak too. Did you hear the one about the ninety six year old secretary who gave eight million dollars to two non-profits in her will? That’s? Not a joke. She spent her career at a law firm in new york city. It got it was very small when she started, it got very big. When she retired, she invested based on what her bosses were investing in. Because back when she started, secretaries would handle would do the investments. So she bought a little bit of the same things they were buying decades and decades ago left to charities. Ah, little over eight million dollars here in new york city. Very compelling story. Um, and i have an important takeaway from it about the way you treat your modest donors. She turns out she was never a donor, but the takeaway deals with treating your modest donors well. And to get that takeaway, watch my video it’s at tony martignetti dot com now it’s time for board change agents, and in order to do that, we have to bring in greg cohen returning greg cohen. Also multiple time guest he’s, associate director at cause effective the non-profit capacity building organization, he’s provided coaching and training to the boards and staffs of hundreds of clients. His expertise includes converting resistant boards into competent and effective fundraisers and developing board. Meaders he’s at greg cause cause effective is at cause effective and cause effective dot or ge he’s in the studio. Welcome back, greg cohen. Thanks. Really happy to be here. That’s a pleasure. This was a bit of a last minute thing, but i’m glad it worked out so well, sure. Um, so board change agents okay? Or board members as change agents. Um, how can boardmember is be effective as change agents. So this starts with how to think about your board overall, i’m going to say ah and step into a room and executive directors and say, list your top three headaches and, you know, that board is going to show up one or two on that relationship has got a complaint about their board. So the first thing that i say to exact directors is, remember it’s, not about the people. This is something systemic boardmember zar, your chief volunteers and you want to reflect on are you creating an environment that brings the best out in each? Boardmember and they’ll say, well, they’re tired, they’ve never i didn’t recruit them to fundraise, but now i need it. So the first thing to think about is when i’m thinking about changing my board am i changing the rules of the game for the people who are in the room? That’s the first thing where i might have recruited them where fund-raising wasn’t a priority now it’s important to me because my organization’s grown and then as we bring in new people, we don’t want to bring people in to that tired, bored culture where they sink down to the lowest common denominator. So here’s my theme, which is you recruit people who are ready to help you change that culture, you talk about it explicitly in the recruitment process and then you bring them in such a way that they start to provide leadership from the get go ng there your ally for change? Why would they want to come to a board? That’s i’m going to call it dysfunctional. You don’t use that word, but i don’t know lackadaisical, underperforming under performing. That’s okay, right now, that sack less judgment that’s still judgment, but right says it sounds harsh. Okay, why would why would they want to come to a board that’s like that? And and be the firebrand and the troublemaker, right? Well, it all starts with mission, right? Like everything else like fund-raising why people volunteer, they care about the work. So when you go out and recruit, you have tohave a narrative of change. We’ve built our organization up, we had a group of dedicated founding board members who put in a lot of time in the beginning, they were volunteers when we didn’t have staff, but now we’ve grown, we have staff and we need a governing board that’s that’s paying attention to the high level issues and out there finding money for us, right? So we don’t have that now. We don’t have that now and very often, as we were crew there’s a really fear if we talk about the fund-raising requirements now, they’ll never join the board. So first is front and center, so the narrative has to be we’ve grown, we have exciting opportunities in front of us. We need a board that matches the and can help add capacity so we can realize all our potential. So what’s offgrid teo just what’s offered to those candidates is the chance to contribute to building the organization to the next level. Okay, so it does. It needs to be someone that loves this mission and that’s true for any board. Candid. Okay, well, well, yes, it ought to be right. Okay, i think sometimes any good, but i’ve seen i’ve seen recruitment just on expertise. We need a lawyer. Well, i know a popular i know a lawyer. Who’s got a good network and she’ll raise a lot of money. So let’s bring her in, but but she doesn’t know the organization, and that leads to disappointment. She’s ended up doing it as a favor to a friend or something like that. Okay, all right, so this they love the mission and you can make very plain to them the gap between where we need the board to be to make that mission excel and where we are right and you’re going to say that you’re going to be that you’re going to be the bridge. You’re going to walk into a room where you’re going to see behaviors that are different than the ones that you were trained in, if you’re coming in, say, through united way or or or another program, i’m bringing you in to be a partner to change that board culture through your excitement about the mission, and you’re fresh ideas, okay? And people are going to look at you. Well, they’re going to be prepared. We’re going to get that because this is the existing board members need to be prepared for when we cover that now. Yeah, because otherwise they’re gonna be daggers in the back of this, only their boardmember are people just going to sit and watch right off my board? Models are consensual and collaborative. It’s not the it’s, not dallas it’s, not the back room. I was there to change this to change person changed person the reporters and prepare the worst is that they pay no attention and they behave the way they did, eh? So what we need so first of all, i’m putting the executive director and whoever’s on the board who’s there, partner in the recruitment in an active role of really thinking about the process of change. So you know there’s a science of change management, we have to articulate a narrative that says we’re on a journey with this organization. The needs for the board’s involvement have changed. We honor what you’ve done, we hope that you will step up to those new needs, but we’re moving forward regardless because the mission in the organization calls for it. So that’s the context and then we need some people with new skills, new networksnew capabilities and ah, willingness to fundraise. We hope you will join us. This is to the existing board, but but if not, we’ll find another place for you advisory board honoree board many forms aboard heaven that you can put people on, but we’re going forward, and we’re going to bring in new folks who are ready for this. Now, we’ve gotta have some allies on the board. We’re going, we’re going, ah, validate this message when it comes from the ceo executive director, i mean, you need is not one ideally suit. This can’t be a surprise, right? I mean, you have good leadership. Ideally, the chair of the board would be idealware well, it’s often you have a very tired from here. That’s the that’s, the source of the trouble you’re tired, you need one or two people and see the need for the change. You know where the allies they don’t have to be officers. Ok, is your back channel before this? Before this change announcement you can and you crack on with transparency. But that’s another conversation. It doesn’t have to be back channel. But you do have to find people who say who actually are the voice in the boardroom of the need for change. It’s more effective if it comes from appear then from the staff. Even the executive director. Okay, better coming from them. I feel like this board is that this is the is this a new business? They raise their hand. I feel like this board is not. I am one of the m one of the one or two. Yeah, sees the trouble. Right? I feel like the new business. I’m raising my hand. I feel like this board is underperforming way. Don’t raise the money we were had, like forty or fifty or sixty percent giving every year among the board. We’re not bringing in our networks. Well, i don’t. I don’t see excitement. On the board about the mission, we’re not engaged with what’s happening on the ground by identifying some potential. Is this is this how it happens? And then? Well, so that that’s the observation is but we have so much that we could do for our clients in this era, we have a waiting list, our staff is performing greatly. How do we talk to each other about bringing the necessary resource is and providing the oversight and stewardship of this organization that’s ready for takeoff? And we need to examine ourselves to see, are we in a place to do that, or do we need to step aside and bring in new people now? Somebody other than the one or two right? I think we’re doing fine. I don’t i don’t see the troubles your eye, all the reports we get are that are the people are fed, are you? Our recipients are benefiting? We’re making impact in the community? Uh, i like the way the board meetings run the preparation for them. I don’t i don’t see these troubles that you’re that you’re kicking up. If if if if if all is well, then no reason to change. The border let’s presume, but there actually is going to be just fine with the resistance. Yeah, so the idea is that we’re having to create a sense of urgency in the boardroom that one of two things is the case, something that we value about our programs and our services will be lost if we don’t get more involved or something or more importantly, and we hope when there’s opportunity and a group is flourishing, things that we want to call into existence components of our strategic plan, expansion of services won’t happen until we step forward. As aboard the staff has exhausted its resource is now the board must play its full governance and fund-raising role, that condition of urgency must be present or it’s rational that people don’t change their behaviour. Ok, urgency, okay, um, let’s, go back to the coast and then it just to say there needs to be a narrative in the boardroom, you know, brought by the staff and those allies that makes it clear that there’s a need for change on an organizational basis. It’s not about the performance of individual boardmember no finger pointing, no blame. We’ve grown up the organizational. Curb the board needs to now catch up with where the organization is that’s a very common situation that the growth of the organization’s development moves faster than the boards and then the board needs to catch up, and some people have put in their service and they’re tired. They don’t want to step up or they need help. And that’s where bringing in some new folks in new energy, new talents, new networks as change agents really could make the difference. You can’tjust reform your existing complacent board without bringing some new element into it. Ok, ok, all right. But i want to address the resistance because right, everybody not going toe be subservient. Go on. All right, all right. So i feel like very articulate with that. Thank you. Alright, let’s, go back to these potential change hs. Now, um, how do we identify the skills that that we’re looking for? The personality? I mean, that’s got the personality is a bigger deal in recruiting these couple of change agents than it has been in recruiting our board for the past fifteen years. Right? So what we’re looking for, right? So first of all, i i said i don’t kick them my eyesight, the executive who’s, your hands, but not your feet, the executive director and those allied board members are are in a place of being the helping b the agents of change. This is an active strategic process, not a passive one, so the recruitment process is of the past may not work up front. You’re looking for people who have experience running and motivating teams. If fund-raising is important, then you want prior fund-raising experience and you want to talk about your goals so it starts with those doing the recruitment, being able to describe clearly what they’re looking for going beyond just we need a lawyer who cares about kids who’s willing to write a check that this is being more demanding and looking for the kind of people you’re bringing to the board table because you need them to drive change. All right? They got the motivational articulate. Yep, right? They’ve got to be pretty insightful to. They’ve got to be ableto handle the pushback not only in the public meeting, but you know, in their committees that they’re going to get assigned to in any back channel communication that might be from other boardmember zoho resistant there’s got to be able to manage yeah, i’m not sure i want to be the manager now. It’s nice if you find someone that’s a very high level skill, but they need to not need credit to be able to lead from behind and put their energy and heimans and they need to understand the background of the need for organizational change. So to understand the journey that we’re helping, they take the board on complete value back-up buy-in so that that’s what i don’t have to have served on the board before, but they have to be good listeners on dh and willing to work as allies. Let’s, take a break and ah, that is for tell us, tell us monium lee elementary school foundation receiving a monthly donation from tell us for the credit card processing of a company one of our parents owns likely the easiest donation source we’ve ever secured. End quote the elementary school that’s, the monthly pass of revenue i’ve been telling you about think of people who are close to your organization who owned businesses. You start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us and go from there. Now, back to aboard change agents with greg cohen. Um, but greg has to sit tight while i do live. Listen, love and podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections. I’m sorry sam prompted me. Yes, the live listener love goes out. Where is it? Cut where’s it going to? Well, it goes to the universe, but specific places within within that that universe. Staten island, multiple new york, new york. Always count on that brooklyn, new york. Um all right, s o we got where’s, where’s, the bronx and queens. We don’t see them today. Alright, historia. We’ve got a story. A queens. Is there? Where’s, the bronx? Not checking in. Well, let’s. Not focus on the negative. Live love to the four boroughs that are with us. Queens, brooklyn, manhattan multiple and staten island. Also down to tampa, florida. A state kongers, new york. Lots of new yorkers love it. Um, hubert, north carolina live love to north carolina. You know, i love north carolina. We’ve got listener in iraq. Iraq is occasionally with us, but not too often live love to you out in shanghai seems to be our only china listeners. Shanghai ni hao, let’s, go to the u k we don’t know which country is masked. We don’t know the country all right. United kingdom, listener live listener love to you and ah, it covers it so far. All right, that’s, the live love and the podcast pleasantries on the heels of that has to come three over twelve thousand pushing thirteen thousand listeners weekly. That’s not a monthly number. That’s each week each episode very glad that you’re with us. Pleasantries to the podcast audience and the affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners. Also throughout the country. Affections to you. I’m very glad that you are listening. Analog. Never let that am fm die, it’s never it’s it’s not going to die. It may be declining. It’s never going to die. Media is too personal. You’re with us affections to you now for greg going. Thank you for being patient. Um, go show the gratitude, you know, all right, okay, let’s, go back to these people. Where do we find? Where do we? Okay, right. Thank you. Thank you. Big request i was school past screening past screening, right? Where do we find? Where do we find him? So typically people think, well, we only have the usual circle of people and they go out and i’m going to use a dating analogy, and so and people go out and right away they think about asking people to become board members after they meet them. But being a board members really the most rarefied form of ask it’s, easier to donate it’s. Easier to be a volunteer it’s. Easier to come to a gala it’s. Easier to be on a host for much time limited not a big ask way at the end of the spectrum for engagement with a non-profit is being a boardmember time, money, reputation, all those things right? So don’t rush into the process, our suggestion for a processes that if you can’t find candidates, think about people who are the well connected people with for people of a certain age. The best roller texas those big role in texas who know everybody in their industry they’d never be your boardmember may because they’re already overcommitted or they’re not quite right, but you go to them with that narrative of your organizations, growth and aspirational future and the kinds of people that you need in the board room to help you get there and you ask them, who does that make you think of in your circles? The more specific you are? We’re looking for a person of color who’s the sepia with a fortune five hundred company, or maybe has technology knowledge, the more likely people going to come to mind in their mental roller decks and give you a suggestion that you say, would you mind calling that person and opening the door for me to go meet with them? They’ll be happy to write. So now, instead of just going to people who are maybe maybe not board candidates, you’re using other people’s networks and using their ability to filter through their contacts to suggest prospects. One, two you’re getting in front of influential people with your aspirational story about where your organization is so it’s a cultivation event, even even if they don’t give you any names or they give you a few, you’ve created the opportunity in front of that person to bring them up to date and show yourself a strategic so that’s a key thing which is don’t rush into rushing to prospects and saying, would you become a boardmember think about some indirect ways and also then cultivate as you screen. Okay, excellent. And you’re doing this with people who know people who have exactly good networks. Good role, exactly right? Good, strong. You can even add ad hoc people to your nominating committee who aren’t board members to help for a limited period time in this process of identifying and screening people. But now these people are coming from your from those folks networks they don’t know you’re or go the way we just said they gotta love your mission ten minutes ago s so we got a quaint thes potential board members with the good work we’re doing and the much better work we could be doing and make them the bridge between those two, right? Exactly. So this is this is not going to be a six week process. No, this is where the best practice for board recruitment coming. Like we need a process. Teo, introduce people to our work. Have at least two interviews i would say with the e d and one with the boardmember i like three. I like to different board encounters, so people offer different judgments, and and the candidate gets to see the different people that be interacting with and then a third thing, which is essential, they have to go out and see the work. Now, when i say this to executive rector’s, first of all, they hold their head in the hands i need boardmember tomorrow. Yeah, well, that’s not realistic, right? The second thing is, if the person doesn’t have time to participate in this process, they’re not gonna have time to show up to board meetings and show up prepared and take a leadership role. So these air enforcing them to show their commitment exactly for you before you invite them? Yes. And they may in good will be excited about your work and the idea of being a boardmember but not really testing it against their reality. These are threshold measures that left both sides figure out. Is this really going to work now? I just heard this at one of the ntcdinosaur views we haven’t played this one. Yet we’re talking about hiring. There was someone who likes three, three, four interviews long hiring processes so that you’re that you’re making the candidate prove their commitment to your mission before you offer him a job there. You got long hiring process, you can’t show up for the fourth time, you know, we will find someone who can well, and that sounds crazy to some people t ask for that, but more often than not, i hear from people we recruited someone looked like a great person on paper, but then we’re disappointed they didn’t show or they didn’t bring them for their full selves to the table when they did show, and you would say, you have yourself to blame because you didn’t you didn’t adequately, uh, you know, they’re not getting their commitment and it’s like a job interview, but the power relationship is more equal. You want to carry out a transparent project process so that either side at some point can say, you know what? I’d like to be helpful, but not as a boardmember maybe i’ll serve on a committee on the host committee or a board committee without being a full member. Excellent. That’s a home run if you don’t let him on the board if they’re going to be end up being one, these disappointments very important i’m now seeing the time that’s required, and i don’t feel like i have that kind of time to be aborted. I’d like to help you some other what there’s, another component arches, you’re not wasting any of your time in the search sound. First of all, you’re going to have to go through a lot of candidates. Most people don’t have the time to be boardmember the best ones already committed. Yeah, right, but what we want is a process that says, i’m i love what i hear about your guy position i love what i see, i can’t be a boardmember and then you want to say, well, there is another way you could be involved. So the idea is you have a spectrum of involvement with boardmember ship at the end that the most demanding part, but you’re actually trying to get everybody you connect with who responds to your mission to be connected in some way. Donor-centric attendee volunteer, a member of a board committee without being on the board, there’s so many ways to engage those people, so you’re not losing that time because they didn’t become a boardmember you’ve added people who are supporters, but maybe not at that very demanding level of very boardmember all right, what do you say to that ceo like you saying ceo but executive director that says, i need boardmember is next week, what do you tell them? I need to raise the money for my kidscollege education next week, but it’s not gonna happen in a week things take to do it well and strategically, it takes time. If you start to do this on a systematic year round basis, you start to build the bench, you should have a regular process cubine ongoing process, al, you’re watching these people who are volunteers, and you’re treating them well and maybe in two thousand eighteen, they didn’t have the time to be a boardmember, but in two thousand nineteen, all of a sudden they discover this is one of the most important things in my civic life. I’m ready to step up so once you start the process, it’s really like farm team through teo being a boardmember it gets easier and easier. Because you’re feeding it it’s, not an ad hoc one shot think ongoing exactly be are going through your right, and as you revitalize your board, you’re placing this function in the governance slash nominating committee. So also it’s moving partially off the shoulders of the e d this should be in a well performing bored the revitalisation of the board process through bringing new people on it should be aboard function, driven by board members. How do we empower them? We just have a couple minutes left. How do we empower them once they’re on the board to hit the ground running as change agents? Great question, so they’re at their at their point, twenty minutes there at their point of maximum enthusiasm and then begin a one, right? So we actually say, work out a plan for engagement, right? So here here, the things that are coming up where we’re going to want to do fund-raising what are your ideas? Where can you be involved? Here are openings on committees, what most interests you were ready to make you committee chair or if you’re not ready, we have a boardmember who will mentor you so that within six months you could play a bigger role. So you’re actually reviewing all your needs with the person right up front and engaging them to commit up front rather than hang back a year, see how it goes, i’ll figure out my place. No, no, we want them engage from the gun. All right, actually, maximum, you mentioned mentor. You and i have been on you and i have talked about this before. Board he’s. Thirty seconds on the value of aboard, buddy. Absolutely essential. You know, particular someone’s. Never been on a board before they come in the room. There are all kinds of acronyms. There’s. An existing culture among that complacent board of friends and family or whatever it is you need. Someone who’s easing you in explaining what’s going on that’s a familiar face in the room when you walk in because you’ve met with them before. So aboard, buddy is an essential piece of that onboarding process. Very smart guy. We gotta leave it there. Greg cohen. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for sharing he’s at greg. Cause cause effective is at cause effective and cause effective dot org’s. Next week. Gene takagi returns with unrelated business. Income tax and fringe benefits for your employees under the new tax law. Do you know this? If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing to radio weinger cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com bye tello’s, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s, our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Family roots in the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and i agree. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. Hello, this bruce chamois, coast of the web design and technology coach. Join me and my guests every tuesday from eight to nine pm. As we discussed the latest in web design, social media, marketing, search, engine optimization and technology way also discussed popular topics, including ward press, making money. All i better cool rankings and more every month way. Also feature the best unsigned music from around the world right here on talk radio dot n y c. You’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sumpter, potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv, then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dole. Check your host on talking alternative dot com. I’ve been professionally writing comic books, screenplays and music articles from fifteen years. Catch my show secrets of the sire at its new prime time slot. Wednesdays, eight p m eastern time, and get the inside scoop on the pop culture universe you love to talk about. For more info, go to secrets of the sire dot com dahna. You’re listening to talking alt-right network at www. Dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, sam liebowitz, your conscious consultant, and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, we will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on thursdays at twelve noon eastern time. That’s, the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, thursday’s twelve, noon on talk radio. Dot upleaf. Durney you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz buy-in

Nonprofit Radio for July 28, 2017: 350th Nonprofit Radio

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s our three hundred fifty and show you heard that live music scott stein is with us and lots of other people. Thank you, scotty, you’re welcome. We’ve got two listeners of the week first. Dan kimble he’s, a product specialist at apple, owes software he’s always tweeting and retweeting aboutthe show very grateful. This week, he posted congrats to tony martignetti and his upcoming anniversary show, grateful for you’re and mr show, grateful for your promotion of non-profit work. Dan, i’m grateful to you for your support of non-profit radio. Thank you so much. Congratulations on being a listener the week on show number three hundred fifty also fund-raising fox they’re on the road right now between buffalo grove, illinois and downtown chicago. They tweeted that this will be great road trip listening to which i retorted, this is like an hour trip from buffalo grove to chicago that’s like that’s a commute? Not a not a, not a that’s, not a road trip, but okay, if you insist, maybe in chicago that’s a road trip congratulations. Fund-raising fox drive carefully even though you’re only going across the street, thanks for being with us on three fifty oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with copper. Oh, poor foreign yuria! If you wet me down with the idea that you missed today’s show, it is the three hundred fifty of show seventh anniversary of non-profit radio coast clear meyerhoff is with us with me live in the studio. We’ve got that live music and more to come give aways from pursuing and cure a coffee all our contributors jane takagi, maria semple and amy sample ward, our sponsor ceos are going to be with us. I’ve got new am and fm affiliate stations to introduce we got non-profit medio math quiz and i’m already exhausted. We’re on facebook live! Check us out right now from the tony martignetti non-profit radio page facebook live! We’re also live tweeting, join us! Use the hashtag non-profit radio on tony’s take two thank you. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com tomorrow half welcome back to the studio, tony. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Wonderful to be here for the three hundred and fiftieth show. Thank you. Yes, i love it. You’re the creative producer of the show. Of course. Thank you. I helped you start the show from one back when it was the tony martignetti show for two weeks back in the day two thousand ten also? Yes, of course. There’s a seventh anniversary seventeen minus ten seventh anniversary president of plant giving agency that’s me, you’ll find claire at pg agency, dot com and at claire says z what’s going on climber half what’s up in your what’s up in the pg agency. Well, we’re working on a lot of different projects. I’ve got a lot of wonderful clients and working with parkland hospital foundation in dallas. Cool, a couple of other clients in texas and a couple clients in florida and ah, united way and lots of different people. And i’m staying here in new york for a couple days of my friend bette’s house in westchester county, and i drove into the city this morning with the convertible top down and here i am, cool it’s a beautiful day for a top you drive to scott stein. Welcome back to studio. Thank you for having me. Great seeing my pleasure. Of course. Scott’s dying. The composer of our theme song. My voice is cracked theme song like i’m fourteen cheap red wine of course you’re gonna be playing cheap red wine on dh another wine related song as well you’ll find him at scott stein music dot com don’t go to scott’s stein dot com i did that that somebody it’s an australian motivations motivational speaker don’t go to stop sign dot com go to scott’s in-kind music dot com and he’s at scott’s time music also so glad you’re with us. Great beer. Cool. Cool. Uh, we got, uh we got track record on the phone. He is the ceo of pursuant to years, sponsor of non-profit radio. The renewing way with us to the end of the year. So grateful for that. So so grateful for pursuance, sponsorship and love of non-profit radio trade ryker, welcome to the show. Tony. How you doing today? It’s? Great it’s. A beautiful day for three. Fifty how are you doing in where you from? In texas. Where? You calling from? I’m in the dallas area. The big d. Okay, cool. I want to thank you. I want to thank you so much. Not only for being here today, but for pursuing sponsorship of non-profit radio. Well, tell me, first of all, congratulations. Three hundred fifty episodes. What a milestone. Unbelievable. We appreciate so much. See great work that you and the other sponsors provide the opportunity for you to do for the non-profit states your gift way. Love what you do, and they’re just proud to be a sponsor. Thanks, tony. Thank you so much, trent. Um, you you are so generous at pursuing there’s there’s. This constant resource is available. I mean, i’m talking about them every single week. It’s webinars info. Grams. Content papers? Uh, it’s it’s. Amazing how generous you are. What? What? Acquaintance with what’s coming up for pursuing the rest of this year. Well, a lot going on. Thank you for that. We really believe in giving back the non-profit states in any way. We can. We learn a lot by working with our clients were in partnership with them always. We’re always thirsty. Learn mohr and then share what we learn. Through a variety of webinars and white papers and other things that we do, no matter how large or how small you are, we’re hopeful ableto help some folks out, you know, for the second half of the year, we’ve been working hard on something that over the years we’ve learned things. One of the things that i think most important is that the smaller non-cash profits that don’t have the resources to hyre firms to help him out of that at a deep level, we’re trying to make some of those tools more accessible youand your listeners have known that we’ve been working on that for a while, wade got some exciting things on the horizon to make better sense of all that data out there that that folks have and be able to make that more actionable and getting better results without having that we’re not having to spend a lot of money, so we’re driven by by creating tools, you know, i think that that’s an opportunity out there right now, there’s more competition than ever out there for the same dollars and stay on top of mind for your constituents and being able to keep up. In that to a conversation is really important, and while there are a lot of great point tools out there would like to call them, and we encourage everybody to use things like that that are free or very inexpensive with non-profit states being able to pull that data together being ableto you have the appropriate relevant conversations to your here’s donors and your prospects and volunteers on your advocate, you are really important so that some of the stuff we’re working on cool and, you know, small and midsize non-profits that’s the audience, you know, where we’re big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, and i’m always saying every week, actually, a couple times a week pursuant data driven technology enable ana, i know and that’s that’s a big no that is a challenge area for small and midsize shops. Yeah, not always accessible, i think you know the big non-profits have a lot more resources, and while we appreciate the opportunity to work with them and learn from them, i’m really driven for the drive system for the quote unquote little guy, the small, the medium sized non-profit that’s passionate about what they’re doing and that most of the time spent, you know, driving for the mission of the organization and fund-raising is an important aspect of that, but how do we make that more simple? How do we make it more accessible? How do we make it more affordable? And so i think that the market will be really excited about some of the stuff that we’ll be bringing out twenty eighteen by way of tools to apply all of that. We’re taking the concepts that you hear out there about business intelligence and artificial intelligence, predictive modeling, and we’re going to simplify that to make it as easy as the way you might use google maps and make it easy for the smaller, medium sized non-profit put it to use and to raise more money and more connected to their constituents. That’s what’s really important, excellent trench. Well, i look forward to sharing the word of all that stuff as it comes out with our with our audience with our over twelve thousand growing on die again. I know you’ve got to go and i thank you very much again for your support of non-profit radio. Thanks so much for being with us, trent. Congratulations, tony. And everybody out there keep supporting tony and the great work that he does. Keep up the good work for your non-profit have a great show, tony, and keep up. Keep it going. All right. Cool. Thank you very much, trent. So long. All right. We’re gonna go out for a first break. We got tons more coming up. Oh, my god. We’re just scratching the surface for god’s sake. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent reminded we’re on facebook live got some folks with us shout out tio maria simple is there dave lynn, thank you so much. Uh, who else we got? Gary astro cool welcome shoutouts to facebook live! You can join us at the tony martignetti non-profit radio page were also live tweeting used the hashtag non-profit radio. Join the conversation on twitter um, we got a we got to give away let’s do a giveaway we’ve got got coffee gif ts from cura coffee and we’re giving our first pound of coffee too silver mark he’s at this is ah, his twitter idea at silver mark make-a-wish did three hundred fifty is awfully nifty returns of the day for those great things you say i mean, you know that’s, you got to give you got to give some kudos for creativity not great! Those are not great lyrics, but that’s just our okay cheats memorable! I think he may have used it may be recycled. He may have used that for another contest. I don’t know, but that silver mark, thank you so much you’re going to get a pound of coffee from cura coffee and claire, won’t you tell us about your coffee? Cure a coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. With every cup of courage, you’re joined your effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. We are direct trade, a direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you, creating organic smiles beyond the cup. Cure coffee, dotcom. Thank you, claire. In that beautiful radio voice, she’s got that. She talked pretty talk pretty good. My abc radio cbs radio serious. You left off serial. I work too serious. Serious. Next time. Don’t be modest. I was then except when they launched on september twelfth, two thousand won cool. Oh, that xero auspicious. That you know that and i get it. You know, again shadow to cure a coffee. Coffee. The ceo is a dentist. He’s practicing dentist that’s. Why? When you get a pound of cure a coffee that’s, why they when you get a compound of your coffee, the gift goes, goes to silver. Mark will include a toothbrush and i think luke’s dental floss. But there’s aural. Care? Yes, because that’s. Why, he says. He says expanding sustainable dental care to remote communities they’re they’re giving back to the communities where the coffee beans are raised. Dental care, they’re giving money for dental care in those communities, communities and in central and south america. On he is a he’s a practicing dentist. He couldn’t be with us. I beg him to couldn’t make it he’s between patients, you know, he’s doing a root canals. You know, it’s got saliva around everything all right? Um, scotty, you cannot i want you to play first song for us. Sure. Um again, scott scott stein, now a pianist, songwriter, vocalist, composer, arranger tell us what you’re gonna play first. I’m gonna play a tune from the record that i just put out just a little bit ago the records called travelling companion and the song is called wine soaked tart we’re keeping ah, wine theme here we do. We got cheap red wine, wine soaked tart. People are going to get the wrong impression of me here, you know, but it’s ah it’s a little tune that way have this idea that as songwriters in his artist we have to be, you know, really down in the dumps to really, like, create great music, you know, you have to really be eo, suffer for your art and it’s not true. It helps it’s, not total teacher. But this is something that is not what kind of zooming out and kind of, you know, being grateful for for what you have i was i was on honeymoon with my wife when i woke up in the middle of the night with the idea for the song, okay? And scott stein, wine soaked heart off his newest album, traveling companion. Dahna i love what you give me. You lying so tired, let me ramble through the square like this september breeze is used to know, nor would you give me your line so tar, let me pull it all together. Then they pull my fuse, paul. Sametz it’s six in the morning and i can’t sleep. It was lying about a strange hotel bed. Buy-in sounds of my lover. Do not keep me waiting. Just the ryland to the rumblings bouncing around inside my head. I what would you give me your wine? So tar, let me revel, sing in the shadow of the spanish hill. You know what, give you wine so let me pull it all together. Limit my fuse part. It’s been a long time coming, but we made it here going to step out on the block, and the noise is going to get off the grid. Tune out everybody but the one i love. Let the world revolve around us like a couple of barefoot kid. Oh, yeah. Love to give me a wine. So tar buy-in let me ram on the land of the authors in the poet it’s on the scene. Lorts give you wine. So tar. Let me pull it all together to limit my bar for my future. Call it predictable. I don’t care. U b roll footage. Cue the montage here. The movie strings. You only get so many years. Be so self aware before the exterior starts to fade in. On this left are the important thing. Duitz because you want forever with a wild, wild heart. What would you give me your line? So tar? So down, breathing him. Don’t try to think so much law to give me a line. So tar, let me pull it all together. My fuse, par. Put my fears apart. Buy-in got stein one so tart thie album is traveling companion. Get the album at scott stein music dot com scottie, thank you so much. Thank you, absolutely love it, love it and there’s more to come. We got we got course, cheap red wine coming up, indulge me while i announce a couple of new affiliate stations. Would you please? All right. W p h w in harpswell, maine live listener love to you. Ah, philly. In effect, i should say affiliate affections to w p h w so glad you’re with us. They’re in the freeport brunswick area of maine, just northeast of portland. Welcome. Welcome to the affiliate community. W p h w also cabe og ki bong ninety seven point nine fm in bandon, oregon. And that is oregon, not oregon. There’s no. E at the end of oregon, oregon offgrid admonished it’s, oregon. Brandon, oregon. There are pacifica station that’s. Very cool on. They happen to be all along the pacific coast in county, oregon. Now, why’re they k bog. I found out k bog glamarys come off cranberries. Very organ is a very big cranberry producing state. Really? And this region of of oregon is bandon is the cranberry capital of oregon. Really cool. Have you been to argue? Okay, bob, i’ve been to oregon. I’ve been to portland. I’m joined a portland for the organ for the first time this october. And then i will only have two states in the us. I have not visited well, that’s very and north when you’re so young through so i need to oh, thank you. I need to get a speaking engagement in alaska and in alaska, north dakota. Okay, that should be well. North dakota is easy, one for you. North dakota sametz least visited st in united states. Listen, alaska people threat well, the glaciers that while there, while we have them, okay, that that’s very cool, you’re going tohave portland. You’re really a great food scene. Great fruiting, love, ah, really quirky place. So our new affiliate stations w p h w and k b o g. Welcome to the affiliate community affiliate affections to those listeners. I’ve got more stations coming up. We got jean takagi on the line. I know we do. Jean takagi is the principle of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations. More group he’s at g tak e ta ke yet it’s. The wildly popular non-profit lob log dot com. Hello, jean takagi. Happy anniversary, tony. Congratulations on three. Fifty. Thank you, man. That’s so cool. Thank you very much. I’m so glad you’ve been with us so so many years from the very early days you were you were one of the very first shows, like you were in, like the first, fourth or fifth show or so and, uh, contributor sense. Really geever it’s been awesome, but you have to come back and visit me here in san francisco. I know. Well, you should come. You know, you could come to new york. I did visit you once in san francisco years ago. But you could come to new york, too. That invitation is open. You could come to the beach in north carolina if you like peaches. That’s tony’s having a big, fat oregon. Maybe we can all meet there in oregon. That’s. Not too far. Yeah, but i’m thinking about a fall trip, actually out west. So i will. I will let you know. Just you know, jeanne, i i emailed this to you a lot, but i want to say it to you. You know, i’m so grateful for the time that you put in for the listeners. Of small from small and non-profit med small and midsize shops it’s a non-profit radio so grateful for the time contribution you make, you know, month after month, you red block posts about the show. When you’re gonna be on, you’re a terrific i just i’m so grateful to have you as our legal contributor. Thank you so much, james. Thank you, tony. Thank you for making all of this information from all of your great contributors available. Teo non-profit sector it’s it’s. Invaluable. Thank you. Uh, what do you got going on, gene? But you got a little little takeaway. Will tip you wanna leave? Leave us with? Sure. You know, i thought i’d talk really briefly about having a politician appear in your charity event. We recently had way did have someone forced chamber. Yeah, it got a lot of attention, so i didn’t talk about that specifically wanted to make sure everybody knew that political leaders can be invited to speak on issues of public policy and issues of importance that charity events. But you’ve got to be careful about it, so make sure you know five oh one see threes aren’t allowed to engage in election. Nearing, so provide instructions to the politicians or their staff, people about not campaign campaigning or speaking on political campaign issues. Uh, you know, at the charity event, and if they start campaigning, you might choose to interrupt politely and strategically, if possible. You know, sometimes that may not be possible if it’s the president of the united states, that might be very, very politically challenging to do that. But afterwards, don’t wait long at the end of the speech of possible make a statement about the charity being a partisans uh, organization don’t wait several days and have the statement come from the top of your leadership. So jean, what is the worst case scenario that could happen to a five a one? C three non-profit if, for instance, a candidate came and super campaigned and broke all those rules and you didn’t do anything about it, what’s what could happen? What’s the outcome right now, the rules say the remedy is taking away its five a onesie three tax exempt status so that’s the rule you know, right now in the political climate, president trump and the republican party platform say that they want to get rid of that rule, but they haven’t gotten rid of that ruled yet, so they would actually like to open up election hearing toe all five, twenty three public charities. But that hasn’t happened yet, and it may never happen. We hope that it doesn’t happen, but the rule right now don’t let it happen because you could lose your tax. Exempt that claire’s got another question for another question. Have you heard about a cherry that has lost its tax exempt status? Because of that? Yeah, it happens pretty rarely and particularly much more rarely. I haven’t heard of any since the new administration. But you would see a handful every year lose their tax exempt status for just that reason. Okay. Interesting. Cool. Very timely topic as always. Jean jean takagi, always on top of things s oh, so grateful, gene. Thank you so much. Thanks. What a pleasure. Thanks, tony. Thanks, clarence. Got have a great thank you. Thanks for your good wishes. So long, gene. We got we got alex career alt-right not not yet. Okay, we’ll get to him. Um, let’s. Um, let’s. Take our little break. Then we got we got we got a little business. Actually, but we have tons of stuff coming up. You still got the math quiz? We got more giveaways. I got morning am and fm stations. We got live listener love coming up. I gotta do the live listening. But look at this for those of us, those on facebook like this list of live listeners amazing it’s a scrolling off the printer, the live listeners we’ve got. And, of course, on the heels of that comes the affiliate affections on the podcast pleasantries, cheap red wine coming up all that first you got to give a shout to pursuant we know them. We just met the ceo but i got eggs. I got to do my promotional thing because i do want you to check them out for the free resource. Is that that trade? And i were talking about infographics, content, papers, webinars. And even even if it’s paid trainings and we have a great prize coming up great grand prize that’s all i am permitted to say at this moment about the grand prize but it’s related to this? Just check them out for resource is tons of stuff for free. They are data driven. It’s it’s. Not just a tagline for them. They help you work with data sorted out, figured out, use it, so you’re not overwhelmed. Check him out. Pursuing dot com quick resource is all the stuff is right there, and we’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. They make millennial money, these air, these air really cool. Claire, they it’s a night for your charity, it’s, live music, dancing, stand up comedy, and they work in fund-raising through spelling bee that’s fun, because millennials are really spelling peer-to-peer. The resident millennial. I feel like i have to confirm this, okay, when you write your lyrics, they’re spelled correctly, yes, what, nobody sigh, and nobody sees them, right. Okay, check out they have a video, they’re really cool. Video show you what a night is like for your charity, it’s, that we b e spelling dot com and then just talked to alexx career, and hopefully we’re gonna be talking to him shortly. And i gotta do tony steak to now, which is my thank you too the way it goes from the people who are just with us today live on facebook hello, thank you for that. But the listeners the over twelve thousand listeners i’m just so grateful that the audience has grown so much in seven years. Thank you, thank you for being part of non-profit radio the trend is always upwards. I’m grateful for that if you let me in your inbox every thursday through the insider alerts, which if you’re not getting them, you can get them at tony martignetti dot com. Thank you for letting me in your inbox every single week. If it’s youtube our fans, their subscribers, they’re on youtube there’s a new video every week twitter, thanks so much for following me reach meeting this show tweeting about the show just enormous, enormously grateful i just got us you know this is an anniversary time to time to say thank you, thanks so much. And speaking of the latest video aside from the three fiftieth which you don’t need now because you got to show you don’t need the previous video, you might check. Out the one that i did most recently before that it was feels good in sixty nine and that’s all i can say about that video, you just have to watch to see what the sixty nine is all about. And, of course, that’s at tony martignetti dot com feels good in sixty nine, and that is tony stick to we got maria simple online. I’ll bet we don’t have a reassembly yet. Wow. Okay, i’ll tell you what, let’s do a little math quiz clay morrow, because i’m really good at math. So exactly, um, and i’m a lawyer. So we picked a non-profit radio math quiz. So you know, we’re gonna sing a song writer writer on dh lawyer, former engineering student i story story for you to bring your slide rule uh, i can not write. Or your engineer, you may need your engineering calculator for those. Ok. Ok. So here’s here’s the math quiz? Because tony’s been doing this show for a long time now, since since twenty ten, it’s a lot of shows that he’s very prolific. We have three hundred fifty shows, so i’d like to kind of figure out some things that some numbers that we’ve accomplished over the years. So would you say how many guests average per show phone and live in studio? Yeah. Live in studio and then plus you gotta bring in the conference guests. I mean, sometimes there’s like three and four panellists. I’d say average. Okay, average, uh, one point seven three let’s. Say two. Okay, let’s round it. So three hundred eighty shows. Two guest per show we have. Who gets it first? How many is that? I hope that i hope that some hope that seven hundred, seven hundred okay, so how many steps are there to climb up the stairs from seventy second west? Seventy second street to the studio here. Oh, you could take the staircase around here. I do it all the time. How many steps? Which is saying? Oh, sam, sam sametz again. Twenty. So twenty steps, times two hundred fifty shows is that’s. Got to be that’s. Gotta be the same. Seven thousand fifty seven thousand. Scott so you did bring a slide rule? I yes. Yes. It’s right in here. All right, all right, all right. So, tony and scott, how many times during each show would you say scott’s music is played during each show. Oh, that’s a cool oh, that’s like how many times is the number one appear on a dollar bill? One, two, three for i’d say it’s probably five. I’m thinking five so what’s time to a two hundred fifty. I don’t know the seven, seventeen, fourteen hundred plus three. Fifteen degree was kottler against that’s got with all right. All right, i swear i’m not i’m not just like peeking over the over the engineering because a ringer is i didn’t know that, it’s. All right? I don’t know. Who’s going to bring her. Okay. How many times have you taken the show on the road? Oh, my gosh! Conferences. Oh, that’s. Probably like, i’m afraid that’s an easy one. Well, ten. So let’s say eleven. So what percentage i can’t even do? The percentage of eleven of the three hundred fifty shows are were shows on the road but you cut me off the delays. I get more than one interview per unconference less now last non-profit technology cover. That was twenty, thirty two interviews in one conference. So there’s thirty two right there, right in three, two and half days. I got thirty two interviews, i’d say probably come away with twenty times eleven conferences. That will be two hundred twenty interviews out of no, that can’t be right. Two hundred twenty. That sounds too high. No that’s. Not right. What am i doing wrong? It’s probably not that high it’s probably it’s. Probably been like one hundred. Oh, those air segments that you’re messing me up. Segments two segments per show. So seven hundred segments. Two hundred let’s. Say, two hundred something two hundred twenty five of those maybe have been conferences or so two hundred out of seven hundred segments. Okay, so the last questions for may out of seven years of shows, i probably come and do it live. Maybe, like, three times a year. So i’ve been here maybe twenty one times. Uh, yeah. In the early days. Yeah. You’re blowing me off in the early days? No, i invited you all time. You never came up? No, i yeah, don’t twenty more. That sounds like a lot. And you know, the last time i was here in the studio, i left tony and i saw another man who works in broadcasting. I met someone. Really? Really. Cool. Right after i left tony show. Oh, you met lester. Lester holt? Yeah, i went down to nbc and lester home. You’ve treated me a picture. You facebook me a picture of you and lester. So today stepped down, you know, the talking alternative studios where we are live on nbc, and then i guess you could go down, continue going down on the show to last. So what are you doing in new york? I said i have clients here and stuff like this came from this non-profit radio show. Oh, and cause i realized later that lester worked in radio. So radio people like even if they end up working in tv or whatever, they still really love stick todo zoho he’s. His eyes lit up when i said, ready brady was cool. Absolutely, absolutely. All right. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for the non-profit. Your math quiz created, produced. This is what she’s, the creative producer. Well, what a surprise. No surprise. Came up with this last night. Like eleven. Thirty my maria semple, decide your simple cold. And i was actually calling on her a little early because she was not at fault when i said maria symbols online, but she is now anyway. Fremery a sample. Hello there, how are you our social media contributor? Immense. I’m sorry prospect restarts contributor. I’m doing great, our prospect research contributors. You’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com and she’s at maria semple on, and she has been a long standing oh gosh, but going back also many years hyre contributor to non-profit radio. Thank you, maria, thank you so much for the time you put in a month after month for our listeners. Thanks so much for my pleasure and congratulations on three hundred fifty and looking forward to three hundred fifty more. Oh oh, my god, they’ll be seven hundred. Okay, i don’t know what i’ll be another seventy years. Oh, my god will be forty. What is that? Twenty, twenty four? Um now cool. Where you now? Where you calling from? Maria semple? I am in new jersey. You’re home in jersey, okay, cool. Very simple loves the new song you facebook live. Do you love scott’s new song? Thank you. Yes, i did. I really liked it a lot. I’m gonna have to go see where i can find it. I think he said it was scott stein music dot com. So i jot that down that’s exactly right. And get the album. Traveling companion. Yeah, she lives out facebook live. All right. Um, summary of you. You got a little tidbit for us today in respect, research land. What do you see? It’s one on there? Yeah, well, you know, i thought it was just kind of focused on teamwork a little bit because, uh, sort of staying in the spirit of, you know, your three hundred fifty shows wouldn’t have happened with without a lot of teamwork there in the studio and from your regular contributors and so forth and all the conferences you’ve attended and really focusing on how important prospect researches to the development process. But that really it’s only one component of the development process on and really try to encourage folks if if you’re wearing that, that prospect research had either as a your sole function within the organization, or maybe one of the functions that you do and your everyday job to try not to work in a vacuum and to try and get a seat at the table. If you can try and see if you will be allowed to attend those development committee meetings and so forth to really play a role in the overall development cycle so that information that you’re able to glean from important conversations can be incorporated into the work that you d’oh alright, it takes a village. It takes a village, is what you’re saying. I think it takes a community text community to raise money and number, and, well, of course, non-profit radio is a part of that, but so is prospect research. All right, the team approach i love thank you for shouting out the team. We do have a great team. We do have an excellent, cool team. I shot them out of the end of every show. Claire scott, sam. Oh, our social media, social media, of course. Social media, susan chavez, all part of the team. Yes, thank you for that. Thank you so much. Cool. Maria, i want to thank you so much again for being part of the show. Thank you very much. And again, wishing you many, many more. Thank you, maria. I gotta give shut out to people who are with us on facebook live. We got we got tons more still. Aunt mary. I know her on david insta with us. Gary astro jimbo xero welcome, jim dahna gillespie rivera ray meyer mary-jo chamberlain michelle libonati oh, my god. Old good friends. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. You could join us on facebook live at tony martignetti non-profit radio page and we’re also live tweeting and use the hashtag non-profit radio. Is that true? That’s true, isn’t it? Um, let’s. See, we got a make on line. Scott. Sam. Any buy-in the line? Okay, then, uh, let’s. Go to i got some new ah, so new affiliate stations and i’d like to welcome. We’ll continue bilich community absolutely am fm stations throughout the country. We got a new one. Que tiene que eighty eight point one fm carbondale, colorado and w c s q one o five point nine fm radio coble skill in upstate new york. I know. That you know, couples skill. Well, i went to plattsburgh state, so i know you would know. Yeah, i know. Yes. Did you know is it’s uh, you know, that’s coble skill, not kabul skill. It’s it was called didn’t know. I didn’t know that i do now, but it’s spelled like kabul, but it’s coble told only one day only one b all right, thank you very much. Like right would be no e at the end of oregon. Okay, you’re right. Couple would be all right. My gobble kabul it’s coble it’s called bilich latto global scale koegler and i’m so glad they’re with us that’s w c s q one o five point nine fm andi i know couple skills. I got a ticket there once. Yeah, it doesn’t. Eighty eight, i think route eighty eight. I don’t know. Interesting fremery take out there, but i’ve got to take a lot of other places in upstate. You got you got a tear, right? Hearing even all the good places. Saratoga, you got a parking ticket right here on seventy second street after one show. That’s a parking ticket that was parking moving violations, or you’re in the big time. Yeah, i did get one. You’re you’re coping skill. I’m pretty sure it was on eighty eight. You gotta hire a lawyer when you get a speeding ticket. That’s the best thing to do. I had to do that once, actually in virginia? Yep. Virginia. You know what? Because anything over eighty, of course, that was not me. I saw it on a sign. But if you happen to be one who was pulled over for dui strike more than eighty is reckless driving. I’ve been there. You get you get a misdemeanor. You know, mr metoo convey. Imagine if you sign the back of that ticket. Mr metoo conviction in virginia for doing over more than twenty miles per hour over the speed limit or over eighty miles per hour. But you could. So i’ve heard you can hire an attorney. You know, they send you letters and for a very reasonable about they’ll take care of it. And the lawyer that took care of mine, i chose his letter out of about twenty letters because his name was will robinson. Oh, cool. Thank will robinson. I didn’t get that was virginia. That was virginia. Virginia. I didn’t get here because i would have picked him through. Thank you. Will robinson? Yes. Be careful in virginia on ninety five. I’ve heard it could be bad. So, yes, eso brand new stations now in main oregon, colorado in new york. So lots of new affiliate affections going out when? When we get to that. So so many affiliates do we have a terrestrial radio? Couple dozen. I really don’t know the exact number. Look where they ended up partying more than twenty. Woman. Twenty. So a score score was more than a score. We gotta score. Plus more than stone. Just don’t get that matthew’s teo what’s that teo give our leaders. Tio penn was that old word for a for a ten cent piece. Whatever a dime in the tie. I can’t remember to bits. We got to bet your two bits worth of that isn’t isn’t cubine oh, is it that those dying what’s two bits i don’t want it was a dime. Now two bits a quarter. We’re almost a two bit we could were around to putting wimpy say, it’s worth burglar hamburger um okay, let’s. See, uh, i want to i want to. Do some more music. Yeah, i’m ready for more music. Scotty stein. Oh, it’s, time for the time, for the theme of non-profit latto now, this is this is legit. I never stole this music from scott start. We have, we have no way of really license, license and he’s been with the show ever since. It’s a couple of years now, you know, i didn’t go back and look at when the licensing agreement started, but if you have been a few years, yeah, cheap red wine, this is scott’s dying cheaper what what’s the album, the cheaper ones snusz from a two thousand nine record, i did called jukebox and get their jukebox. I’ve seen him live ilsen him in and bars clubs. I’ve seen him do cheap red wine a few times. Scott stein, the theme song for non-profit radio, cheap red wine, all right. To be, they just keep on talking sooner. Later, i figure around just so what you mean. You see, in romantic advice from a village, i’m looking for answers upon a tv screen. Buy-in wait can agree on nothing. We can’t tell our ups from our downs. We’re disappointed in each other. Nothing baby. And i love that we have found. You know, you used to find me charming, but i can’t figure out how. And you said you thought it was handsome. But doesn’t matter now. So keep falling. Five foot sounds as long as your time. Well, because i haven’t got any promises about a cheap one and down. You know, some girls live in diamonds. And they won’t talk to the cut of clothing that i wear. Well, i’m reporting for the good stuff, and you’re too easily distracted to care, relying got too many options, and so i’m gonna do the best that i can, but you have some competition one day when i’m a wealthy man said, you know, you used to find a job, but i can’t figure out how you see your toes, and it doesn’t matter now. So came falling from my post as loans. Your time will allow, because i’ve got a runny promises by achi, brenna wine and wait let’s, raise the glasses. You drink the better days. The other people’s kids are. They don’t like the things we say, and i’m thinking, because of everything that i want flash nothing. Three signs his work permit for each other, as long as with you, nobody else in my nobody’s way. What? You know, you used to find the jumping, but i can’t figure out how and you see, your father was handsome. Never mind it. Don’t matter now, so get for from a punch on monday, tom. Allow about her any promises, a cheaper one. Teo. Yeah, man, that song is under my skin. I can’t help it. I just love i just love cheap red wine from the first moment i heard i knew it had to be the thing that theme song thank you so much. Thank you for your, you know, for communion to have me on and getting congratulations every fifty and, uh, you know, supporting local independent music. Absolutely. Absolutely love it. Thank you. I’m glad you’re part of the show chanpreet out every time. Every time we got we got alex career alex were called and he’s the ceo of we’d be spelling you hear me? Talk about it every single every single week. Super cool spelling bee fundraisers we be spelling dot com. Hey, alex. Career. Hey, what’s up. Tony, how you doing? I’m doing great. How are you? I’m doing fantastic. Thanks so much for having me on for the three hundred and fifty of the exciting stuff. Absolutely. I just wanted to hear you tell people. You know, in your own words what we be spelling is all about, and i’m grateful that you’re part of the show week after week after week. So, you know, give us give us the short version. What? What? What tell me about we’d be spelling absolutely. So we’d be selling the lifetime of game show. We have a live band with comedian judges. What we do is we take this wacky event repair with non-profit and we use it a za fundraiser. So we start peer-to-peer campaigns with all of the spellers. They raised a bunch of money like marathon runners in the lead up to the event. And we come together. We have ah, party of an event that it’s spelling bee only in name, but feels a lot more like comedy. Game show. Yes, cool! I love that it’s all it’s, all entertainment i’m you know i’m always saying, is that it’s not your seventh grade fundez not your seventh grade spelling bee, not you. It is not your grandmother’s, not your grandmother spelling that. What do you got coming up? Anything exciting? Going share? Yeah, so we’ve been really busy this year. We’ve been doing about two to three events a month from the top of the year axel next big event is august twenty third in brooklyn were going to be part of the brooklyn comedy. Festival so that’s a really fun event we’re partnering with. They tell you to raise the money at a big event with a whole bunch of comedians participating in fellers that august twenty third at union pool in williamsburg, brooklyn. Excellent. Excellent. Yes, and it’s a night for your charity, it’s ah, it’s fund-raising for your charity individually. S o you know, check out the video. We be e spelling dot com and then just talked to alexx. I mean, you could see what a what a what a cool guy is, right? I mean, it’s, no trouble. No trouble. All right. Appreciate it, alex. My pleasure. Thank you for calling in. Thanks so much for being part of the show. For your sponsorship. Of course. In two to three hundred fifty and three hundred fifty more shows. Thanks so much. Thanks so much. Let’s. Go teeny sample war. Who? Thank you. Thank you. Alex let’s, go to any sample ward. I know she’s on. Hello, amy. Sample ward. How are you? Hello. I’m doing well. Congrats on three. Fifty. Thank you. Aimee semple ward, our social media contributor. Ceo of intend the non-profit technology network. She’s at amy rs. Ward the ours for rene. Um and thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, i can’t believe that. I mean, i remember five years ago getting to be on the show. Can you believe that it’s been five years? I know you were on your guest on the one hundredth. You’re a guest on the one hundred, and then i just fell in love with the whole idea of prospect of sorry mixing him up social media and being on the show every single month. And, uh, yeah, two hundred fifty shows ago. It’s. Amazing. I know. Five years. Absolutely. So. So, you know, there are there were tools that didn’t exist five years ago that now we get to talk about on the show. Indeed, there were indeed there were so glad so. And let me say to you, i am grateful for the time that you put in every month to educate non-profit radio listeners in small and midsize non-profits thank you so much. Amy really means a lot to me. Thank oh, my god. It’s. My pleasure to get to share. Cool. Thanks. You give us. We just got a minute or so. Give us something you’d like to share. Well, one thing that i was thinking about that i will not put any any political commentary around, but i was reflecting earlier this morning about being on the show, talking about social media five years ago. And would we have ever thought five years ago that we would have politicians using the same tools that organizations are using right, like, five years ago, it was such a difference reality when it came to that, and now it’s normal, that articles would be quoting a tweet or a facebook post or facebook live stream, you know, from from d c i think it’s really interesting what that will mean going forward? Yeah, i think five years ago, politicians were just kind of figuring out whether twitter is something they should put their name on, is it? Is it safe for me to be associated with this platform now? It’s zits fundamental and you’re way behind if you’re not, you know? Yeah, i mean, we have, you know, elected officials using facebook live stream when there, you know, doing presentations on the floor, how does that change their relationship to their constituents? I think i think it would mean a lot. Get shifted pretty quickly. Okay, cool. Wait, what did you have something you want to know? We got it. Okay, we gotta let me go and we’re happy. Three. Thank you, thank you so much. Thanks for being part of the show. Amy. Of course. Thanks, amy, and we got to go to a break. When we come back, we’ve got got more giveaways. We got live. Listen, love podcast, pleasant she’s, an affiliate, affections. You gotta hang around, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation. Top trans sounded life that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i am his niece, carmela. And i am his nephew, gino. Ah! My niece’s name is carmela. Come on, that was carmela and gino metal, niece and nephew there. Now they’re not yet there. Now thirteen and eleven, they’re italian. Let’s, give something right there. A little talent, let’s. Give something away. I got some more cure a coffee. Um and this time it’s going to seth perlman. Ah he’s at s j perlman p r l m a n and he tweeted better, brighter, bolder broadcasts for those who give back yeah, you know that’s an attorney that’s, that’s that’s about what you’re gonna get. You know, i know it’s great just writing for a living. No such problem not very good and i’m grateful for him tweeting out and using the hashtag non-profit radio three fifty for today’s show. So we’re sending him a pound of bolder kira coffee for seth perlman. Claire cura coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee dean’s. With every cup of cure, you join our effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. We are a direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you, creating organics miles beyond the cup. Cura coffee dot com your coffee dot com love them. Thank you so much, cura, for sponsoring those two giveaways and we got a grand prize to give. Away the grand prize is going to cheapen cole she’s at non-profit chapin and she tweeted for today’s show congrats to tony martignetti on celebrating non-profit radio three fifty seven years of enriching inspiring content on an amazing podcast exclamation mark thank you! Thank you so much. We got the grand prize for you and that is a seven part webinar training siri’s sponsored by pursuant are our sponsor. I hope they’re not at their sponsoring. Too many eyes not distribute the sponsorship dollars too broadly. I mean, don’t forget non-profit radio for god’s sake. Claire, what about that? What about that seven port? Serious? Well pursue it is proud to sponsor a seven part webinar siri’s with some of the world’s top fund-raising experts, including gael perry from fired-up fund-raising the donor relations guru lynn wes for simon scribe er from change fund-raising leah eustis s f r ee and founder of blue canoe see change strategies founder mark rovner and a rachel muir c f r ee what’s that stand for cfr certified fund-raising executive and then there is also a c f r ee what’s that advanced certified fund-raising and then there’s and then there’s double advance. D a c f r double advanced, which and then it has an asterisk at the end too. And then you drop a footnote at the bottom of the page and it says that you’re super sort of fundchat yes, so go for the cfr, which i just made up. In fact, it looks like dale perry. Looks like cal perry just joined us on now. Hey, just join us on facebook. Hello, gail pantry. So joined lisa martin game and joined hello, lisa. Jeff lane joined wow, let’s vote for lots of friends from and vot nor the value altum pan high school. Thank you so much, jeff. Lisa um, panda reso mary-jo chamberlain didn’t realize this show had so much math. Now, this is a special because it’s got a three, five zero in the title. So not to worry come back and not a lot. Nothing so much math every time greg rajic am i going to saying no, no, i was left thinking you did mind you don’t mind my lip sync when you were singing it all now and listen if you want to sing harmony like you know what does that mean? I have jack in jail, jack in jail, not proper radio jock in jail, i don’t know. Not sure harmony is normally the lyrics is that what the lyrics is now it’s like when you sing, when people sing together, one sings like the team, the melody and the harmonies, like another part, like the background, or sometimes what’s the lyrics what’s that what’s that i hear the words that’s, the word zoho fancy way to say it works the melodies, the tune this is why i have drug in jail. Um, i like to write the words first and then i do the lyrics after let’s do live listen alone using one minute. So what? The end of the show home? My god, no, no, alright, live! Listen love, i can’t do i can’t doing languages look at this live love! I’ve got to get out besides everybody on facebook, shalem, malaysia, seoul, south korea padano dune yano, italy thanks for being with us. Italy, brazil, austria, germany non-cash yang, china let’s bring it into the u s new york, new york multiple in new york city, potomac. Marilyn brooklyn, new york. Stuart scott stein, who hails from oakland. 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If you missed any part of today’s show where i beseech you, as i do every week find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling. The fundraisers we b e spelling dotcom are creative producers. Claire meyerhoff sam league rules is the line producer shows social media’s by susan chavez. Our music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook, facebook but andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane. Toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? 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Nonprofit Radio for July 21, 2017: Look Good To Creditors & What Boards Get Wrong

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Paula Park: Look Good To Creditors

Loan? Credit line? Bond issue? Paula Park reveals how to impress creditors when you’re knocking on their door for money. She’s senior vice president at BankUnited.

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: What Boards Get Wrong

Gene Takagi

You may have heard rumors that your board isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look out for. Gene Takagi is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent get excited for next week it’s our three hundred fiftieth show seventh anniversary i’ll say more in a few minutes and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into psych ataxia if i tried to focusing on the idea that you missed today’s show look good to creditors loan credit line bond issue pull a park reveals how to impress creditors lenders when you’re knocking on their door for money, she’s senior vice president at bank united and what boards get wrong? You may have heard rumors that you’re bored isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look for. Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group i’m tony take two, sixty nine and three fifty, but not four hundred nineteen. Responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com my pleasure to welcome first time guests to the show pullup park she’s. Senior vice president responsible for new business development in the non-profit hyre ed and healthcare sectors at bank united’s commercial banking she’s, a banking industry probono over twenty five years of experience focusing most of her career on the banking needs of tax exempt organizations before bank united, she was with wells fargo bank. You can email paula she’s offering her email. People are at bank united that dot com welcome polish pork high thank you. I’m very excited to be on the three hundred and forty nine forty nine that’s. Amazing, thank you very much. It’s almost set seven years called seven wow, seven years what’s one week between friends, right, seven years. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, i don’t know if i’ve had, uh i don’t know if we’ve had a bank around before. I think you might be our first banker. We’ve talked about financial things, but we’ve had, uh, more investment advisors you’ve had, you know, invite investors. We certainly had accountants on you. Might be the first banker zoho that’s. Exciting. Three forty nine. Right? Right. That’s like a low percentage. I feel i’m in the one percent you’re in the europe urine the point o o one. Yes. Okay, so we want to look good for creditors. White let’s. Just make something explicit. Just in case there are maybe or eggs that i haven’t thought about this. Why is it advantageous for them to borrow money? Well, you know, there’s. A lot of reasons for borrowing money. And first, i’d like to say that these air my opinions and up the opinions of my bank. Okay. Okay. Disclaimer. Thank you. So, you know, it helps you expand the reach of your own money. So not every organization can afford to do everything they need to do today. But, you know, do you have a long term risk repayment show source for a short term needs that’s a great reason to borrow. So you want an asset that will last you for the rest of your life. But you don’t have all the money today, okay? Like real estate. Like real estate. But you have the cash flow to support that. Maybe you want to think about borrowing, maybe it’s a great alternative to renting. Ah, and also non-profits use it to help them with their seasonality of their cash flows. Okay, that would be a credit line. Yes, and cried. Um, one of the purposes. Do you see clients coming to you for borrowing? Yeah. I mean, it’s, mostly capital and cash flow. Sometimes we bridge capitol campaigns. So again, back to this that, you know, you have pledges, but they’re going to come in over ten years. But you could buy that asset today if somebody will finance those pledges. Okay, so if there’s the right kind of documentation against those pledges, right? Like, if they’re biting their legally binding, right? I guess that would be part of your due diligence, and they allow lending. You have to let them, you know, they have to say in them that you could borrow against. Okay. All right. We’ll get to the details. All right. Cool. So so you have this future basically receivables? Yes. And you could borrow against them. And under the right terms? Yes. Okay. All right. All right. So it’s, mostly for assets and credit lines. Cash flow is mostly assets and cash flow. Okay, cool. Well, sam, just hand me the list of live listeners were bursting with live listeners who want to hear about looking good to creditors. Okay, we’ll get to the live. Listen, love that comes later. Okay. Okay. So, what should we think about before we approach a creditor lender and start an application or even to start inquiry? What do we need to have in line first? Yeah. I mean, i think you want to get your story together. You want to understand yourself and why you’re approaching them what you’re asking them for, you know, is there collateral? Can you offer collateral? You want to understand your own finances, and you have to be able to explain them to a bank in a way that they can understand wth? Um, okay, so we can’t just voice the whole bunch of documents on you and let you sort through it. Yeah, i know that’s an awful approach that does happen. And that tends to be the last thing you pick up. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t you throw a whole bunch of random things, really? Organize it. Think about your approach. Think about what you want to tell folks about yourself. Um, if you have a compelling story about yourself, tell it. And you have to be able to tell the story. Behind your numbers, because if you can’t tell it, nobody else can understand, okay, so you’re going to ask is this is this now is this? We’re like an initial phone call just like inquiry call i call up and say, you know, we’re thinking we have a cash flow issues, you know, we’re thinking of fifty thousand dollars credit line would be valuable for us, right? I could that would help us make payroll when you know things like that make our rent payments, et cetera, eyes this in an initial call, or do i need to have these things in line before i even call you and say, i’m thinking about doing this? Are you able to help? Yeah, i mean, i love asking questions, so don’t expect that the person on the other end of the line isn’t gonna have a ton of questions there are even in the usual cold, even in the initial call try to feel it out and see if it’s something you’re interested in or not, um and get an idea of what they’re looking for. Why, you know how they’re going to pay you back? That would be part of the initial conversation, because if it’s something you know you can’t help somebody with you don’t want to spend too much time on your trying to feel it our right. You’re beginning contrary, maybe the popular opinion. You’re not just throwing money at every organization that comes because you because it helps you make money, right know now you know. Okay. There’s due diligence. There’s a lot. I do know. How are you going to repay? All right. So how are we going to repay? I mean, if we need to borrow, how do we repay? Well, so, you know, there’s there’s. A couple of different ah, ways to do that. One is, obviously you have excess cash flow every year. So on a long term repayment, you know that extra hundred thousand dollars you have every year goes to pay the term long town. Okay. Okay. With, you know, with the capital campaign, you play it down, you pay it down, it’s the pledges come in and for lines it’s around your seasonality. So you know your your contract started. You perform the service now, it’s. Three months later. And you’re starting to get paid lines when i was in. College lines meant something different. I am not referring to the white lines now. No white lies a credit line. He’s a credit local. Just making sure. Yes, so would credit lines it’s based on your seasonality. So wants your money starts coming in from your government sources. You should be able to pay those back down, okay? Or maybe your donors, donors or your biggest and, you know, whatever that is. It’s it’s lines are meant to be drawn down and repaid and drawn down and repaid over the course of the year, and most of them have a thirty day cleanup. So you’re not supposed to use them for thirty consecutive days. Oh, meaning thirty days you’re supposed to be paid off within thirty days within it. Within thirty days of every year consecutively you have to pay a line of credit town. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, keep about my organization. Can’t keep a balance. No, the idea is to show us that we’re not your permanent working capital, that we’re just a temporary solution. Otherwise, that usually shows evidence of a larger problem. Yeah, because i say all right, right. If there’s always a balance, then the credit line isn’t the right vehicle for you, right? There’s always a balance because, yeah, you have a systemic issue usually. Ok, which is you’re you’re going to try to get at before issuing the line, right? I try to figure that out. First poker. Sometimes things aren’t as visible. Okay, we’re gonna talk about that. We’ll get more detail. Right? So we got we got to go away for our first break for a couple minutes, and then we come back. Of course, paul and i’m gonna keep talking about looking good to creditors. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy. Dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Uh, paula okay, um, so now we’ve progressed past. We’ve gotten past our initial inquiry call, okay? And we’re still viable. Yes, we haven’t. Slobbered we understand our financials. Oh, how would you want to see you? So when you say understand your financials on what you’re looking for, what kind of explanation? I mean, you know, numbers tell a story and what we want to hear the story behind the story. So we want to understand, you know, what you’re doing out there, you know, how you’re helping people, but also how your funding helping people, what your cash flow cycles like, you know, why you’re goingto borrow you know, you’re you’re building a new homeless shelter? Why do you need it for how many people are going to stay in there? How do you how are you going to pay it back? You know, um, you know, how do you budget? How do you work towards your budget? I the one of the my pet peeves is when somebody tells me they don’t track their budget, that scares me. Oh, that’s, terrible ally, i admit that. To a potential lender. Yeah, i’ve had that several time. We don’t track our budget. We don’t track to our budget and money. And yeah, we don’t do internal financial statements. We don’t track to our budget, right? That’s about that’s a bad sign? Yeah. That’s a that’s, a big red flag right there. It’s like, how do you know what you’re doing if you don’t keep track, right? Yeah. How do you know? How do we know we’re going to get paid back-up wi calendar if if you’re not if you’re operating from a budget. So at the end of the year, you figure out if you made it or not. Yeah, december thirty first. Yeah. Scary. Scary. It’s bad. We shouldn’t be operating that way, but that’s systemic. I mean, that there’s a there’s. A problem with board oversight there? Yes. What is not executing its fiduciary duty? Okay, i don’t know if jean takagi is listening, but he and i are gonna talk about some of the things boards get wrong. That’s one of them? Yeah. Okay, now. All right. So next step durney. What is the next? How would you define the next? So so what? I usually do is i gather financial data. So i asked for three years of audited financial state man’s your current year today how you’re tracking to your budget, you know, some sort of a numeric picture of how you’re going to pay me back. You know, what’s the funds flow if it’s aline what? Your cash flow cycle looks like that’s. Another red flag when somebody says, i don’t know what my cash flow cycle looks like. Um, you know, what’s your plan to pay me back to cash flow cycle well, that’s, your receivable cycle. So most organizations, especially government funded, have a very typical we know. Yes. Okay. All right. So we know, on the end of the quarter, we were very rich, and then we draw it down from the end of the quarter. Because our government pays us, the state sends me. It sends us to check every quarter, and that sustains us for the three months and right. And then we have other revenue sources, like events. And then we have individual donors account for right. Thirty percent of our revenue like that. I mean, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s it and you. Show me your cycle s i collectibe bunch of financial dad and then what i like to do is come visit, meet in person, see what you look like, see where you work here, what you sound like in person and, you know, asking a lot of questions and again have you tell me your story? How can we impress you now now you’re we’ve given the documents now coming on site, right? Right? How can we impress you so that you will give us the loan? Whatever it is that we’re that we’re looking for? Yeah, i mean, first of all, i always bring somebody with me and they’re usually the credit person, one of the credit people, so if you don’t impress them, does that mean they’re the ones who make the decision date? They either make the decision or influence the decision, okay? And you know, if they’re not impressed, that’s it but the end of the line and how to impress them. So you know again, you tell us your financial story. You tell us how you’re going to pay us back. You tell us about what you dio and how you do it. If you have a great program that you can show us that that’s going to really impress us. That always helps a lot. Ok, so show off our facility. Oh, yeah. Even if it’s not directly related to our loan. Yes, absolutely. Okay, you know, bring important people. Bring the cfo. Bring the executive director. Boardmember bring aboard matter-ness boardmember i love when they bring boardmember bring a boardmember show how committed everybody is, you know, talk about why they’re there and how much they love it. And, you know, it’s and the personal impression means a lot. You know, if you leave a meeting and you don’t trust the people you spoke with, they don’t sound articulate. They were confusing. You know, the chances of getting the loan get lower and lower. What about its summertime? Okay, if i show up at this meeting shorts and flip flops. Yeah, shorts and flip flops are a very bad idea. I’ve had it happen. Birkenstocks, you name it. Cut off jean shorts. You know the bank for god’s? Yeah. Think about your audience. You know, even if you have casual fridays, you should probably hold off on showing me your casual fridays until i know you better invite you for monday through thursday. Yeah. Invite me monday through thursday if you don’t want unless we’re doing a barbecue sacrifice your casual friday. Yeah, yeah, but don’t turn up in your casual friday close. I want to bring my credit people it doesn’t mean they’re in suits and dresses. Yeah, we just sweat it out and suits and you’re in your flip flops. They feel insulted. Okay, what else? Anything else? Tip of ways we can impress you. Tips inside of these the pro tips. I mean, you know, the pro tips. I guess one of the things we talked about was pricing hot off the show. But pricing bad banks, you know, come up with a score card on you. They basically take all your data and important into a financial model. And we come up with a risk rating for you and it’s. A number, man. Every bank has a different range, but the idea is the same. And and the number we come up with for you goes into usually some sort of a pricing model. And based on the number your price changes like there’s no, your interest rate. You interest rate, right. So the mohr um risk-alternatives and some of that’s quantitative. So you can’t really change that, it’s. Just a number driven there’s a portion that’s, qualitative and that’s. Where impression and how you sounded in how your story sounded. That all goes into the quantitative piece. Quality. Yes, qualitative piela that that moves your number around. What would you say that proportion is quantitative qualitative in deciding this risk rating? I mean, quantitative hyre okay, but sixty, forty years? Seventy, thirty, thirty percent. I can influence about a third that’s. A lot of my rate by putting on a good show having good present that making a good presentation, right? Right. I mean, there’s, nothing you khun dio, if your numbers are never going to work, there’s nothing you can do to change that. Okay, but if your numbers do work there’s a lot you could do to move, move it around and and put yourself in a different place. Okay, so, you know, i think that’s an important thing to consider is is what impression you’re leaving people with, you know, think about before you have before you call before you meet. What impression am i? Trying to give you what are some of the numbers that go into the these these? Yeah, that go into the risk lady. Yeah, s so what we do is we take your you typically it’s three years. We take your last three years of audits, and we lined them up against each other so we can look at trends. And we re like ratio analysis. We like, first of all, we do a percentage for everything. So revenues is, you know, made up of seventy percent this and ten percent bad expenses. We break every line item into a number and a percent. And then we blind him up so we can say things like, why did your program express spence? Increase relative to your revenue? Why was it twelve percent last year and this year, it’s? Thirty ah, wei take numbers and we pour them into a whole bunch of ratio analysis. Leverage is an important one. It’s basically debt to net assets. All right, we’re getting into jargon jail territory now? Yeah, you just defined leverage. That’s. Good it’s. A ratio of debt to net asset that to net assets. We look at liquidity numbers, which can be all different. It could be a gross numbers. Something like cash and i’m restricted investment. You can be a ratio like sabat current assets minus current liabilities. That could be current assets divided by current liabilities. So there’s a whole bunch of different numbers to look at. And then they think the most important one is debt service coverage ratio here in jargon. Jill. Yeah. Yeah, i know, but i can tell you thie d s c r the common. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, your operating access plus interest appreciation operating access that we have to find that. Alright. Wait. All right. So let’s, just leave it with dug a hole here. Alright, jargon, but you get me out. Get me out of this hole. I mean, this dark hole, all right, basically shows us how you can pay us back that we have the capacity to pay you back. Yeah, it has to be better than one. If you want more detail in that email. Female polar at people back tonight at dot com. Okay, i got out of that slow. Okay. So, what’s all right, so you’re going toe. You’re doing deep evaluation. This is your your due diligence, right? God, quantitative and qualitative. What are some red flags? That that, yeah, what is a red flag? Yeah. I mean, you know, you’re looking for big, big red flags are ah, negative net assets. So negative equity negative equity means you you own less than you owe you. Owe more than you. Everything, including our copier are if we owned property, whatever all our assets yet or less than our liability. Yeah. That’s, that’s a big no, no, but, you know, this debt service number we’re talking about is below weinger okay, skip over that. Okay? You’re okay, you’re below one the one that’s bad that’s bad. You’re operating continually at a loss like year after year after year after year here on it’s getting worse, okay, you know, so the trends are getting worse. You know that? The number that you’re looking at two pay your backs getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Right? So your risk the risk of this money that you’re going to be lending is rising and rising, right? What? It may just be so high that when that we can’t even help you. Right? Right. All right, red flags. Any other red flags? Birkenstocks, you’ve got a deal. Killer it’s not a deal killer. I’ve done, i’ve done deals for cookie people and strange outfits, but but there, but they paid more. They might have paid for that race probably were hyre yes, stocks, birkenstocks will cost you, you know? I mean, they’re they’re lovely, but not not, not when you’re meeting the credit people, right? And if you go out to meet with people and for burke, they don’t understand what they’re talking about and they can’t tell you why they’re expenses. Air hyre this year, and they don’t manage to a budget and you walk in and the ceiling’s falling down, you’re like, i don’t know if i want to do that. What if we’re lending for renovations because our ceiling is falling down? Well, that would be we’re borrowing. That would be a different story. But if this is like your not that, you know, your i’m in for working capital and you know, the book just fell on my head. I’m a little worried, okay? Yeah, but you have deeper issues beyond. Yeah, there’s more keeping your program’s going in. Your staff paid yes within which these programs and staff are residing is not stable, right? Your buildings falling apart. Yeah, this is fun. And you? Oh, well, let’s, get back to some of the fiduciary duties that the board should be overseeing. What if there’s excessive compensation, right? I mean, you know, there’s not a hard and fast rule for executive compensation. But i do think that if you see stuff that’s really out of the norm, it does raise a big red flag. And one time, for example, i was looking at the nine. Ninety of social service that their financial statement there ought. It looked a little odd, so i went to the nine. Ninety to see if i could dig a little deeper because there’s. A lot of information in there. And i found out thea president, ceo and cfo. Were husband, wife and son. Oh, no. The social service was it’s operating at a loss, but the three of them together made over two million dollars a year. And the headquarter hyre? Yeah, hop on. The headquarters was being rented from the president. Man, i didn’t do that loan, right? Yeah. That’s. Egregious. Yeah. That’s. Great. Where’s, the board i don’t know. And it’s it’s, you know, it’s, a founder run entity. So, yeah, that has to sell that story. Yeah, and i won’t tell you who but it’s when you know very marriage. One wife and son. Yeah, and the three of them are making two million dollars over that’s a lot for a social service. Especially one that’s operating at a deficit. Right? Him? Yeah. So, you know, i look for things like that. Google, sir. Oh, you mentioned. Oh, okay. You mention financial statements, flandez these come with a lot of footnotes? Yes. When i was in law school, i had a professor who he was so keen on the footnote being so important that the answer to an exam turned on whether you read the footnote or not. Yes, absolutely right or wrong in big way. Whether you if you didn’t read the footnotes. Footnotes i read, i actually i read the footnotes first before i even look at the financial numbers because their stories in there because that’s, the football i love the footnotes. Yeah, there’s. A lot of stuff in there. It’s. Very interesting. Um, all the good stuff’s in the footnotes if we’ve got stuff buried in the footnotes that we would rather you didn’t see? Should we just let you read it on your own? Or should we come out clean and say, you’re going to see cem, some improprieties or some, you’re going to see some red flags? Let me talk about these shoes. In other words, should we reveal it, or shall we leave it to you two? Maybe you won’t find it. Yeah, it’s always better off to come up front with things make cerini find it, maybe we find it and and you know what it is and and and if it’s on google, if i can google it, you have to tell me, because if it’s out there, i google search everybody everything yeah, bad press um and if it’s out there on google, everybody knows so china hide it it’s better to just tell you story a pride. It always sounds worse when you dig it up on your own. Absolutely well, that’s. Like being ten years old, it’s. Much better to go to mom and say you did something bad. Then have her discover that you fed the broccoli to your dog. Right? Right, it’s. A deal killer. When you find something on google and it’s egregious for me, it was liver, but i have cut it into little bits at a smother it with ketchup. I always say, if you covered cutting little bits and spread it around the plate, it looks like a lot less right, right. At least hide it under the mashed potatoes. Yeah, hide it or just diffuse it when it’s dense on the plate. That’s when? It’s scary, right? Just just last night, this came up, somebody cooked me liver, even smothered with onions. I just i’m not a liver fan myself, but you got to come clean. He gotta come tell up front. You know, we don’t like liver here in this organization, right? That’s, right? And we want you to know and here’s why? And here’s but here’s what we do instead we have other sources of iron right supplement. Wei have other sources of good protein. That’s right? We’ve finished. They were in vegan. They were even begin here. Yeah, there are good. So alright. Come clean. That’s. What you’re saying? Come clean. Dafs piela all right. Um anything else? All right, so now we’re getting to this, the evaluation, the number’s sounds like we’re just reduced to a bunch of spreadsheets cells, right. While we tell you story too, we tell you story and writing. Oh, so you tell us your story. We tell you, we tell our credit people your story. Okay. Okay. So are you? Basically is your role basically too be an advocate for the would you put it that way and advocate for the non-profit is that too strong of a navigator? As long as that they’re worth advocating for. Okay. Okay. Until they’re not your advocate until they’re not worth advocating for. Yes, absolutely. So you’re the liaison. I’m really a front face of the credit organization. Credit institution, bank united on dh. You’re working between the organization of the credit right in the middle person? Absolutely. I kind of represent both to each other. Anything else we can do to get the best rate possible? We just have, like, a minute and a half left. What could you d’oh? Besides, have great numbers tell you. Good story. Where the right clothes? Show me your show, mia programs. Okay, alright. Stuff recovered. Yeah, i can’t think of anything else in that case tell me why you love. You’ve been in banking and lending twenty for over twenty five years. Why do you love this work? Yeah, i mean, i’m here for the not-for-profits so i’ve always been a not for profit. I started lending to not-for-profits in nineteen, ninety and i’ve been hooked ever since. I love to be involved in the projects i love to be involved in the missions i love to meet the people i’ve set on board. I’ve done volunteer work. I’ve worked. It not-for-profits too and i just i just want to help the the not-for-profits helped the universe. Our cold is to go to that to go to the ribbon cutting oh, i love going to the river cutting that’s like your shining moment of glory when all the all that work you did paid off for everybody. Yeah, so that’s fun. We loved the ribbon cutting and we try to bring some of our bosses to the ribbon cuttings too, and let them see how great we are, where their money did something good for a change. Outstanding cool part. Thank you. Thank you. Ballpark. Senior vice president at bank united park at thank united dot com. Thank you again. Thank you so much. Jean takagi and what boards get wrong is coming up first pursuant they have ah, well, they have something, but you have seen a lot of midyear fund-raising reports now we’ve we’ve crossed june thirtieth and benchmarks being discussed everywhere, you know, whether you’re living up to what the community is doing or not, but one of the most important trends and how do you make the most of the best sense out of them for your organization? What if you’re not hitting the benchmarks that other people have created on dh? How do you keep rising above if you’re if you’re ahead? That’s what the next webinar comes in for from pursuant it’s, the state of fund-raising midyear checkpoint with ceo trent riker he’s going to be on the show next week for the three fifty and senior vice president jennifer abila they’re gonna help you push through your third and fourth quarters if you can’t make it live on july twenty fifth, watch archive either live or archive go to pursuing dot com click resource is then webinars. We’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers make millennial money that’s my own that’s my own alliteration that’s not there so don’t don’t blame alex queer. We’d be spelling for that, but listeners have been talking to alex. I know he’s the ceo there he’s also going to town next week and you could be next. You could be a b you could be you could be next. Look at this. What is brilliant mind since that what? You’re witnessing it at work right now. Um, b next, check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and then pick up the phone for pizza. Talk to alex and look, look what his number is. Nine to nine to two four bees. Okay, see, i’m not the only one now the time for tony’s. Take two. Sixty nine and three. Fifty. I’ve got a new video. Feels good in sixty nine. Get the filth out of your mind. Get it out! This is a family show. Although i don’t know anyone under twenty one. Why anyone under twenty would listen. But in fact, if you are under twenty one and you can prove it to me, i’ll make you listen for the week. Get me at tony martignetti sixty nine is a new position for me, it’s. Hard it’s a hard position. Watch the video and it will all become very clear. Next week is the three hundred fiftieth non-profit radio we’ve got all the regulars that iran, including jeanne kaguya, was coming on very shortly hyre meyerhoff she’s gonna be with me the ceo’s from pursuing and we’d be spelling live music with scott stein he’s going to play our theme song, of course, cheap red wine and another and we’ve got giveaways from pursuant and your coffee. How do you enter the wind post your most creative? Congrats on the three fiftieth use the hashtag non-profit radio three fifty post will pick the best ones those will be the winners here’s that hash tag non-profit radio three fifty you’ll find my sixty nine and three fifty videos at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two jean takagi. He, uh you know, he’s been listening to tony take two he’s been on for a couple minutes. You know who he is? He’s, the managing attorney of neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit law block dot com and he is the american bar association’s. Twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer you’ll find him at gee tak gt a k jean takagi. So great to have you back. Welcome back. Thanks, tony. Great to be back. My pleasure. We’re talking about some, um, some mistakes that boards make. What, uh, what brings this to your attention? Well, it’s been in the news a lot on dh governance on every level in every sphere of ah, our country has been coming to a lot of attention and whether things were done properly up on the top or not, um, has become a big issue, and i think there’s a common saying the tone is set at the top and the tone of proper governance on non-profit boards really sets the whole tone for the organization and when you don’t have boardmember that air prepared to set that right tone, there are there are problems that follows, and those are the things that get into the news, okay? And we were just touching on just a couple of those with with paula park a few minutes ago, some talking about some of the fiduciary issues fiduciary duties that board members might be ignoring if they’re if they’re not. Properly prepared for, you know ah, credit application sabat okay, but aside from that let’s, see, what would you like, tio? What would you like to start with you? Pick you pick somewhere. We got to get a bunch to go through. But you pick something to start. I feel like i always dictate to you. You choose. Okay. Let’s do allowing. No, i’m sorry. Go ahead. What would you like to do? Well, i could actually let’s start with sort of conflict of interest transactions and that’s where boardmember sze decide that they want to sell services to the non-profits on whose board they sit and, you know, some some sort of say, all of that should not be allowed. And with private foundations there’s ah, much stricter rule that prohibits most of those transactions. But with public charities, it’s usually not sort of absolutely prohibited in some cases, a conflict of interest times action is actually to the organization’s benefit. Like kinda boardmember says, you know, i’ll give you rent at half of the market rate on you. And you can use my my offices to run the organization. That might be a very good deal for a public charity, but where board get in trouble is where one member of the board says, well, you know, i’ll sell you these advertising services for the organization, and my usual rate is five hundred dollars an hour, but i’ll charge you four hundred dollars an hour, and maybe that is what you know that person’s rate is when they’re selling him tto fortune five hundred companies. But for this little one hundred thousand dollars a year non-profit a four hundred dollar an hour rate for advertising is probably excessive. And if the rest of the board just blindly goes along that’s as well he’s giving us a twenty percent discount let’s go with it that gets boards in trouble. Yeah, okay. Would that fall under that eyes that a conflict, conflict of interests? Yes. I mean, there may be several laws where it could be a problem, but on sort of the federal level on the federal tax level, along with being a five a one c three organization and the public charity, you’re not allowed to engage in on access, benefit transaction where somebody like a boardmember gets an excessive payment. And if that happens, what? The irs could do would say, hey, you know, that was excessive, really, nobody should be paying a charity this side should not be paying more than let’s say, two hundred dollars an hour for those services, so you were overcharging two hundred dollars per hour and what we’re going to make you do, as the irs says, we’re going to say you have to return that excessive portion back to the charity, and then on top of that, we’re going to charge you a tax for violating that rule, and that will be twenty five percent of the excessive amount that you charged. And if you don’t fix that within the tax year, we’re going to charge you a two hundred percent penalty under the mountain, all right away, if any boardmember approved that transaction and they knew or he really should have known it to be excessive, we’re going to hit them with a penalty as well. Oh, my goodness. Okay. And i think you and i have talked about this not recently, but xs benefit transactions. I think we’ve covered this. This yeah, and then very i love that you point out the possibility of individual fiduciary penalties and my saying individual money, penalties for the board members, personal penalties. Yeah, really, really rare. But, you know, if if boards look like they colluded, teo benefit one of their fellow board members and weren’t really looking after the best interests of the organization, they can be imposed. Okay, okay, let’s go to aa, not preventing misappropriation, our misuse of the of the ah, the money’s that come in or the other other assets of the organization. Yeah, i mean, that’s a great segue way because one misuses overpaying a boardmember really is overpaying anybody. So maybe you’ve got a friend. And, you know, that friend is offering this great deal to the organization according to your friend, but maybe it isn’t such a great deal. Or maybe it’s for services that the organization really doesn’t even need. So he’s saying, you know, i’ve got this great storage facility. You guys should rent it, and you know, i’ll give you this this great deal on it, and so the organization goes ahead on, rents it but actually never uses it because they never needed that storage facility. Well, that would be kind of a waste of assets and potentially, a diversion of those charitable assets to benefit somebody’s friend. And again that back and get people in a lot of trouble about cyber security risks what’s the board’s responsibility there? Yeah, cybersecurity czar really hot button issue right now and then we’re seeing it everywhere from, uh, people getting their social security numbers stolen or credit card number stolen and identity theft associated with that. So when non-profits are collecting what they call personally identifiable information information that can be associating with a specific individual, they’ve got certain rules that apply, and these are specific to the states. So there’s certain rules that apply that say, you’ve got to really maintain and protect this information, and if it gets out, if your sites that contain this information are breached and those things that released a lot of states say you’ve gotta notify the individual who’s data has been breached and taken so that they can take steps to protect themselves. So really big deal now you you will have already breached the law if you didn’t create secure systems preventing certain breeches and hackers from getting at that data. And if you fail to notify possibly donor’s information, for example, or some buyers of your services or goods? If you don’t notify them of that reaches well, you could be violating another law. So a lot going on there in cyber security. Actually, another really interesting one was recently there was some ransom where that that was came out and hit not only for-profit organizations but some non-profits is well and ransom. Where is basically where somebody hijacks your site and some of some of your site, maybe for processing donations or for selling goods and services. And so you really rely on having them up every day while the hacker takes over your site says unless you pay me let’s, say, you know, ten thousand dollars by tomorrow, i’m going to keep your site hacked and it may take you, you know, even with your experts a week, two weeks to recover it, and maybe you’re gonna lose a lot more money if you do that now, what do you do? Yeah, we just had that nationwide within about the past, not not not just nationwide internationally with in the past, what, six weeks or so? See, i think the wannacry ransomware i don’t know if it’s called a virus or something else. But yeah, it was widely prevalent in a lot of organizations, and organizations have to figure out how to deal with that and it’s best to figure those things out before it actually happens, rather than after the fact we just had a guest with in the past. I’d say that in the past two months, mark last night was shine mark shine. I think, talking about cyber security on how to ensure against it, the different policies that are available. Teo, to protect your organization in the event of a breach s so you could listen to you could look back at that it’s just with i’m sure it was mark shine just in the past couple months, okay, let’s. See, um, let’s. I do want to get teo another, another popular blawg, not not as popular as non-profit law block dot com, but we’ll we’ll give ellis card or a shout in a couple minutes. How about yeah, investments what’s the what? I don’t think you and i have talked about this one, the board’s responsibility around the investment policy statements of the organization? Sure. So, you know, even some smaller charities, you know, they got reserves and order some of them anyway. If they’re lucky, enoughto have not have to live sort of day by day, have some reserves on dh. They may want invest those reserves rather than just keep it in in a checking account, for example. And if you do have assets for investment was a charity. There are state laws that are associated with prudently investing those foreign investor axe. Yeah, on dh those are really important to pay attention to so some charities and some have come to us for service. You know, when when the market is it is it’s hot on the market has been pretty good lately, you know, they’re also served deals out there, and some are like going no, you know, we would like to invest all of our our money in this hedge, but, uh, and they may not even know what a hedge fund is. And i don’t know that anybody actually knows what a hedge fund is, because that covers so many different broad groups of investments, but they tend to be wildly speculative, meaning you could make a ton of money on them in a short period of time, and you can lose a lot of money in a very short period of time and that type of speculative investment making unless it’s part of like a prudent portfolio where maybe, like ten percent of your assets are devoted to those that are, you know, much more speculative, but ninety percent are in much more conservative investments can be a real breach if you put all your money’s in one basket, which it’s never good ideas, we’ve learned from our our parents or our kindergarten teachers. Um, you know, you’ve got to make sure that the portfolio of different investments you have is prudent, and so you’ve diversified your risks and not put it all in some wildly speculative investment, and that could be not only a breach of your fiduciary duty but reach a prudent investor rules and there’s a rule we don’t wantto get into jargon jail, you’re always about the impression that the acronym uniforms prudent management. Of institutional funds act, and it says that you have to look at different concerns when you’re investing on dh. It really talks about conservative investing in a portfolio with an eye on what your mission is as well. Gene, just give that acronym and what it stands for again, please, i talked over you sure upmifa upm i f a, the uniform, prudent management of institutional funds act. If you google upmifa and your state, you’ll find what the law is, and i think that’s in forty nine states, i think maybe pennsylvania’s the outline, hold on. All right, all right, thank you. I’ll try teo, keep my tongue civil from here on, but all right, let’s, go out for our break. When we come back, i’ve got live. Listen, love a ton, and we’ll give a shout out to another law block that you might be interested in state with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests are there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. Krauz hyre hopes could be with us next week for the three hundred fiftieth show as well. Jean takagi, listen, let’s, do the live listener love because we’re bursting here. Tampa, florida bronx, new york and if we got all five boroughs, we got multiple manhattan. We got bronx. We got staten island. Um, we have brooklyn where’s, queens, queens. Let us down. All right. We got four out of five and multiple said, multiple manhattan, woodbridge, new jersey. That’s not far. Laura, laura, laura, belinda, california live listen and love to all of you, but also to torrington, connecticut. I’ve been to torrington, that’s, a nice little town. I did some consulting there. Uh, social service agency. Torrington. And you have that that renovated theater right in downtown. I love that’s, very pretty. Minneapolis minnesota lives their love to you also new bern, north carolina and midlothian, virginia. Midlothian, midlothian live listen love. However you pronounce it let’s, go abroad. Not too many people abroad, nobody, nobody in asia, nobody at all in asia. This, i think, is the first show where there’s, nobody from asia. Wow. Okay, uh, they’ll be back. Uk? We can’t we can’t we see uk, united kingdom so we don’t know whether it’s whales or ireland or scotland or england we don’t know well, you’re in the uk so we always give always give you know you got to do the you got to recognize that there’s more than one country in the united kingdom, please and germany, good talk, live listen love all our livelong sinners on dh so of course, on the heels of that has got to be the podcast pleasantries because we’ve got over twelve thousand podcast listeners in the time shift. Thank you. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners, never forgetting them. And then, of course, the affiliate affections to our am and fm stations throughout the country. And by the way, i have four new stations to introduce next week on the three, fiftieth four brand new stations joining us throughout the country from new york, colorado to washington. I think porter stations but for the current stations listening today affections to our am and fm listeners. Thanks so much for being with us, everyone. Thank you, jean. Thank you for that indulgence. You know the thanks that you know the gratitude has got to go out, right? You know that? Absolutely. Thank you. Um okay. So let’s give a little shout out to ah, another. Another non-profit attorney ellis carter. She she she curates the charity lawyer blawg, cherry lawyer block. And you know, ellis carter. I did turn and she’s a wonderful person and a great attorney. Alice and i have had a chance to speak together and work together on the few occasions you’ve worked together too. Cool. All right. So on her block post going back, i think it’s two thousand nine there was one of her earlier poster, if not her very first post. She links to you while she mentions a bunch of your problem ideas. And i want to give a shout out to your block. Of course. Non-profit non-profit law block dot com where listeners can check out all your list of all ten because you did a post for this show, which actually you do that every week, which i always appreciate every time you’re on, you do opposed. So if you want to see the full list of jeans, go to non-profit loblaw dot com. But ellis carter has charity lawyer blawg and she’s got a couple on there. That i want to talk about, like micro managing staff are you are you comfortable talking about ellis carter’s board governance mistakes? Yeah, absolutely actually give credit to her. She came up with a list of ten, and then i just added a few more to to her list, and so she recaptured all fifteen together on her block, but she was the one who came up with micro managing staff and it’s a really important one because i think he probably seen it as well. Tony, where board members start to get involved and then go around the executive director and start to give directions to the staff. Yes, i have and creates all kinds of political trouble and reporting line trouble and yeah, yeah, but, you know, part of that can be the responsibility of the ceo to and blurring lines and, you know, having boardmember do things that maybe you’re not appropriate, like, you know, day to day tasks and things. Yeah, and so, you know, oftentimes when you, this is a kind of a growing pain for some non-profits as well, because when you’re on all volunteer non-profit organization, it is where the board members involved. With everything as well and and managing volunteers in that case. But once you start to grow up a little and have staff and haven’t executive director, the board members have to know to pull back and, you know, for one thing, boardmember should know that individually they have no inherent authority to do anything. They don’t have the authority to manage staff it’s only collectively as a board where they have authority officers like your executive director or your ceo perhaps might have the authority to give limited direction to the staff to ceo would obviously have have the ultimate authority there with respect to the staff, but just knowing where your boundaries are, it’s really important and from a liability standpoint, board members, if they start to mismanage, that could get hit with unemployment claim, which really makes up, i believe more than ninety percent of all directors and officers insurance claims our employment related and if they’re directed against boardmember themselves, and if you don’t have dino insurance boy, that that could be a huge problem for individual boardmember so they really have to be careful of that. Another one on ellis’s list is airing disagreements outside the board room and that reminds me of the very timely, like complaining about your attorney general to the new york times as an example, it just happened today airing disagreements outside the boardroom what’s the trouble there? Yeah, and obviously as a non-profit when you’re taking positions, you wantto have one position that you’re setting out to the public you don’t wantto have ah, divided ah statement that you’re giving to a public where some persons involved with the organization are on one side of an issue when other persons are other side of an issue and it looks to the public that the organization is poorly governed, poorly managed, and can’t even make up its mind on what its messages and therefore could jeopardize support. So aaron aaron, you know your disagreements outside of the boardroom, a really big problem for the organization in terms of its, you know, public relations, but also a huge, huge problem for the boards themselves because, you know, tony, if you and i were on the board together and we had a disagreement over a key issue on dh, we got a chance to discuss it, of course, when we go out you know, even if i may have disagreed with you and, you know, your side won, i’m going to be supportive of that. I might not say very much about it, but i’m definitely not going to say, well, i, you know, in in public that i disagreed with it because what happens if i start doing that is i’m a chill further board discussions, you know, if you don’t kick me out of the board for doing that, the board might find itself very, very leery of, you know, raising controversial points because you got this one person who’s going to be a blabber mouth and start teo, reframe everything and criticize you personally outside of the organization, a really big problem. The place for the robust discussion and disagreements is within the confines of the board meeting and maybe discussions that take place in committee or or even know our board members having back channel communications right privately on the phone or email, but publicly wait, where were we? Face-to-face we present one face yeah, and this along with your duty of loyalty to the organization as well, you’re supposed to act as a board member in the best interest of the organization. Not in your personal best interests. All right? Yeah. You don’t want to hurt the organization by by airing your grievances outside. Thank you very much. Looking forward to talking to you next week on the three. Fifty of jean? Yeah, i’m really looking forward to three. Fifty congratulations. Thank you so much, jane takagi you’ll find him at non-profit law block dot com and at g tak gt a k next week three fifty three five oh, how many times i have to say it, make sure you enter to win our giveaways post your most creative congrats with the hashtag non-profit medio three fifty can’t wait for that great fun! If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com we’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com our creative producers climb hyre half sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and this fantastic cool music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. Sametz buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.